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Week Eleven of the Russian Intervention in Syria: A Step Back from the Brink?
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This has been an amazing week. While last week I concluded that “The only way to avoid a war is to finally give up, even if that is initially denied publicly, on the “Assad must go” policy”. Now it is true that various US officials, including Kerry, did make statements about the fact that Assad need not go right now, that a “transition” was important or that “the institutions of the state” had to be preserved, but of course what I, and many others really meant, was that the US needed to fundamentally change its policy towards the Syrian conflict. Furthermore, since Turkey committed an act of war against Russia under the “umbrella” of the US and NATO, this also created a fantastically dangerous situation in which a rogue state like Turkey could have the impression of impunity because of its membership in NATO. Here again, what was needed was not just a positive statement, but a fundamental change in US policy.

There is a possibility that this fundamental change might have happened this week. Others have a very different interpretation of what took place and I am not categorically affirming that it did – only time will show – but at least it is possible that it has. Let’s look at what happened.

First, there were some very unambiguous statements from John Kerry in Moscow. The most noticed ones were:

“As I emphasized today, the United States and our partners are not seeking so-called “regime change,” as it is known in Syria” source.

“Now, we don’t seek to isolate Russia as a matter of policy, no” source.

Now, I am acutely aware that Kerry has “lost” every single negotiation he has had with the Russians and I have written about that many times. I am also aware that Kerry has a record of saying A while with the Russians and non-A as soon as he gets back home. Finally, I also understand that Kerry is not the one really making the decisions but that this is what the US “deep state” does. But with all those caveats in mind, it is undeniable that these two statements constitute an official, if not necessarily factual, 180 degree turn, an abandonment of official US goals towards both Russia and Syria. Furthermore, we have seen not only words, but actual actions from the Americans. First, the US and Russia have agreed to draft a common list of “recognized terrorists” (as opposed to “moderate” freedom fighters). While it is debatable as to who will end up on the “good guys list”, it is certain that all those who matter in Syria – al-Qaeda and Daesh – will make it to the “bad guys” list. That, in turn, will make it much harder, but not impossible (remember the Contras!) for the US to continue to assist and finance them. But the US did something even more interesting:

The USA announced that it was withdrawing 12 of its F-15s from Turkey, 6 F-15C and 6 F-15E. Now this might not look like much, but these are highly symbolic aircraft as they are the aircraft which were suspected of “covering” for the Turkish F-16s which shot down the Russian SU-24. The F-15Cs, in particular, are pure air-to-air fighters which could only have been directed at the Russian aircraft in Syria. Of course, the US declared that this was a normal rotation, that it has been an exercise, but the bottom line is here: while NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg had promised to reinforce the NATO presence in Turkey, the US just pulled out 12 of its top of the line aircraft. Compare that with the Russians who continued to increase their capabilities in Syria, especially their artillery (see here, here and here). Furthermore, there is this very interesting news item: “Erdogan’s Spin Machine Now Blames Su-24 Shoot-Down on Turkish Air Force Chief”. Read the full article, it appears that there is a trial balloon launched in the Turkish social media to blame the downing of the SU-24 on the Turkish Air Force Chief (nevermind that Erdogan publicly declared that he personally gave that order). Finally, Russia succeeded in getting a unanimous decision of the UNSC to adopt a Russian resolution targeting Daesh finances. Needless to say, if the Resolution was officially aimed at Daesh money sources, it really puts Qatar, Saudi Arabia and, especially, Turkey in a very difficult situation: not only does the Resolution foresee sanctions against any country or entity dealing with Daesh, but the investigation of any claims of such financial relationships will be conducted by the UN. According to Russia Today,

The resolution also asks countries to report on what they have accomplished in disrupting IS’ financing within the next 120 days. It also calls on UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to write up a “strategic-level report” analyzing IS’ sources of revenue within 45 days. “We are counting on it to be a very concrete and honest report,” Churkin told RT. Churkin also mentioned Turkey’s involvement in the illegal oil trade with IS, stressing that Turkish individuals as well as companies could be sanctioned under the resolution. He added that countries could even be sanctioned “if it turned out that [one of them] has not implemented enough effective measures against the fight of financial terrorism.” According to the UN envoy, Russia was the only member that could provide proof of concrete schemes used by other countries to engage in illegal oil trade with Islamic State or how IS able to use the revenue from those transactions to purchase weapons from other countries, particularly from a few in Eastern Europe. The document, which is based on UN Charter Article VII and takes effect immediately, calls for members to “move vigorously and decisively to cut the flow of funds” to IS. It says that governments must prevent its citizens from funding or providing services to “terrorist organizations or individual terrorists for any purpose, including but not limited to recruitment, training, or travel, even in the absence of a link to a specific terrorist act.

So not only do the Russians now have the means to channel their intelligence about the collaboration between Daesh and Turkey to the UNSC, but the Secretary General will now produce a report based, in part, on this intelligence. This is all very, very bad news for Ankara.

So what is happening here?

Here is what I think might have happened.

My hypothesis

First, the downing of the Russian SU-24 is becoming a major liability. The Russians have immediately claimed that this was a carefully planned and cowardly ambush, but now top western experts agree. This is very embarrassing, and it could get much worse with the deciphering of the flight recorders of the SU-24 (which the Russians have found and brought to Moscow). The picture which emerges is this: not only was this a deliberate provocation, an ambush, but there is overwhelming evidence that the Turks used the information the Russians have provided to the USA about their planned sorties. The fact that the Americans gave that information to the Turks is bad enough, but the fact that the Turks then used that information to shoot down a Russian aircraft makes the US directly responsible. The USA is also responsible by the simple fact that there is no way the Turks could have set up this complex ambush without the USA knowing about it. Now, it is possible that some in the US military machine knew about it while others didn’t. This entire operation sounds to me like exactly the kind of goofball plan the CIA is famous for, so maybe Kerry at State or even Obama did not really “know” about it. Or they did and are now pretending like they did not. Whatever may be the case, the US is now obviously trying to “off-load” this latest screwup on Erdogan who himself is trying to off-load it on his Air Force chief. What is certain is that the plan failed, the Russians did not take the bait and did not retaliate militarily, and that now the political consequences of this disaster are starting to pile up. As for Erdogan, he wanted to come out of this as the Big Pasha, the tough man of the region, but he now looks like an irresponsible coward (Putin ridiculed how the Turks ran to NATO as soon as the Russian SU-24 was shot down when he said: ”they immediately ran to Brussels, shouting: “Help, we have been hurt.” Who is hurting you? Did we touch anybody there? No. They started covering themselves with NATO.”). Even the US and Europe are, reportedly, fed up and angry with him. As for the Russians, they seem to believe that he is a “Saakashvili v2” – a guy with whom there is nothing to discuss and whom the Kremlin considers as politically dead.

Second, look at Syria. Even under maximal pressure, the Russians did not yield or show signs of hesitation but did the exact opposite: they more than doubled their presence, brought in heavy artillery systems and even floated the idea of opening a 2nd major airport in Syria (this intention was later denied by Russian officials). For the Americans this meant something very simple: while the Russians are much weaker in Syria than the USA, they were clearly undeterred and were not only holding their ground, but digging in. In other words, they were ready for war.

I want to believe that the various warnings issued by many, including myself, might have contributed to convince the US analysts that the Russians were really ready to fight. First, there is Peter Lavelle who on his RT show CrossTalk has been warning about the path to war for literally months now. But there have been many others, including Pepe Escobar, Paul Craig Roberts, Alastair Crooke, Stephen Landeman, Stephen Cohen, who were sounding the alarm and warning the Empire that Russia would not ‘blink’ or ‘back down’ and that war was a very real, possibly inevitable, danger (you can see some my own warnings about that here, here, here and, of course, in my last week’s column). I know how the intelligence process works and I believe that such a loud chorus of warnings might well have played a rule in the US decision to change course, if only for the immediate future.

As I have stressed over and over again, the “tactical-operational contingent of the Russian AirSpace forces in Syria” (that is their official name) is small, isolated and vulnerable. Syria is stuck between NATO and CENTCOM and the US can, if needed, bring an immense amount of firepower into Syria and there is nothing the Russians could do about that. See for yourself how many air bases the US has in CENTCOM and Turkey by clicking here: (high resolution, 7MB image created by SouthFront). But there is one thing even a small force can do: become a “tripwire” force.

Regardless of the limited capabilities of the Russian task force in Syria, it was large enough to be considered a “tripwire” force – one which attacked would result in a full-scale war with Russia. If the Americans had any doubts about that, they were instantly dispelled when they heard Putin officially declared that “I order you to act very extreme resolve. Any targets that threaten Russia’s group or our terrestrial infrastructure is to be immediately destroyed”.

The combination of all these factors was, apparently, sufficient to convince the US to step on the breaks before things really got out of hand.

Again, I am not affirming that this is what took place, but I want to believe that I am correct and that somebody in the USA finally understood that war with Russia was inevitable if the USA continued on the same course and took the decision to stop before it was too late. If this is really what happened, this is extremely encouraging and very, very good news. While stupidity and insanity, not to mention outright evil, are definitely present in the AngloZionist Empire’s top command, there is always the possibility for decent and sane men to do the right thing and try to stop the crazies (like Admiral Mike Mullen did when the Neocons wanted to start a war with Iran).

The other big event of the week was, of course, the annual press conference of Vladimir Putin. I have posted the full text on my blog, so I will only mention one particularly interesting part here: Putin was asked about whether Russia wanted to keep a base in Syria forever. Here is what he replied:

Some people in Europe and the US repeatedly said that our interests would be respected, and that our [military] base can remain there if we want it to. But I do not know if we need a base there. A military base implies considerable infrastructure and investment. After all, what we have there today is our planes and temporary modules, which serve as a cafeteria and dormitories. We can pack up in a matter of two days, get everything aboard Antei transport planes and go home. Maintaining a base is different. Some believe, including in Russia, that we must have a base there. I am not so sure. Why? My European colleagues told me that I am probably nurturing such ideas. I asked why, and they said: so that you can control things there. Why would we want to control things there? This is a major question. We showed that we in fact did not have any medium-range missiles. We destroyed them all, because all we had were ground-based medium-range missiles. The Americans have destroyed their Pershing ground-based medium-range missiles as well. However, they have kept their sea- and aircraft-based Tomahawks. We did not have such missiles, but now we do – a 1,500-kilometre-range Kalibr sea-based missile and aircraft-carried Kh-101 missile with a 4,500-kilometre range. So why would we need a base there? Should we need to reach somebody, we can do so without a base. It might make sense, I am not sure. We still need to give it some thought. Perhaps we might need some kind of temporary site, but taking root there and getting ourselves heavily involved does not make sense, I believe. We will give it some thought.

I find that reply quiet amazing. Can you imagine a US President actually thinking that way and openly saying it? Putin is quite obviously making fun of the so-called “experts” who have been telling us for years how much Russia cared about a base in Tartus and who now tell us that the airbase in Khmeimim is the next “forever base” for Russia not so much to protect Syria but to project Russian power. It turns out that Russia has no interest and no desire for any such costly power projection: “ Should we need to reach somebody, we can do so without a base”.

By the way, this translation is incorrect. What Putin really said was “Если кого-то надо достать, мы и так достанем”. The word “dostat’” is translated here by “reach” but I would translate it by “get” meaning “if we need to get somebody (in the sense of “strike at somebody”) we can already do that (i.e. without a base)”. This was most definitely a veiled threat even if the official translation does not render it accurately (and yes, a supersonic and stealthy cruise missile with a reach of 4,500km does allow Russia to ‘get’ anybody anywhere on the planet, especially when delivered by aircraft with a 12,000km flying range).

When western leaders and expert assume that Russia is about building bases abroad they are really only projecting their own, imperial, mindset. I have said that over and over again: Russia has no intention of ever become an empire again simply because being an empire is bad for Russia. All Russia wants is to be a truly sovereign state and not to be a colony of the AngloZionists, but she has no intention whatsoever of becoming an “anti-USA” or a “Soviet Union reloaded”. Hillary can scare herself at night with nightmare of Putin rebuilding the USSR, but there is no constituency in Russia for such a plan. Russia wants to be free and strong, yes, but an empire, no.

It is quite amazing to see how western leaders and experts project their own mindset unto others and then end up terrifying themselves in the process. It’s quite pathetic, really.

In conclusion I will just add that it is quite likely that the focus will shift back to the Ukraine again. Not only is the Ukraine hours away from an official default, but the Ukronazis are openly threatening Crimea with, I kid you not, a “naval blockade”! Considering the lack of US and NATO enthusiasm for Erdogan’s shooting down of the Russian SU-24, I very much doubt that anybody in the West will be happy with that goofy idea. So between the economic collapse, the political chaos, the coming winter and the Nazi freaks and their crazy plans to fight Russia, there is a pretty good chance that the next flashpoint will be in the Nazi-occuppied Ukraine again. I doubt that the US has the “mental CPU power” to deal with both crises at the same time, at least not in a sustained and energetic manner. That, again, is good news – the Empire is over-committed and overstretched and that is typically the only situation when it is willing to compromise. We shall soon know if my very cautious optimism is warranted or not.

• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: NATO, Russia, Syria 
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  1. Putin at his illogical best. His quote. “My European colleagues told me that I am probably nurturing such ideas. I asked why, and they said: so that you can control things there. Why would we want to control things there? “ Frankly I am confused. If Putin does not want to control things in Syria why are the Russians there. Furthermore I do not believe for one second that the true decision makers in the US have abandoned their ultimate goal of subjugating Russia. Syria is just but one piece on the chessboard. Just yesterday the US put in service its newest missile site in Romania. US instructors will also start training Ukrainian army and there is considerable effort to stop the second pipeline to Germany. Of course the sanctions by EU have been extended and the price of oil continues to fall. In other words the noose is tightening. Even if Putin succeeds in saving Assad and I am not sure why he is so important, it will bring very little benefit to Russia. As the economic situation in Russia continues to deteriorate we may soon see protests similar to those in Ukraine before the fall of Yanukovych.

  2. Chaban says:

    The “Saker” is a fraud and has been exposer as such. This is yet another spin to point Putin as a great strategist, when in reality Putin is a sellout (picked directly by Boris Eltsine, hence the U.S. State Department) who does not work in the interest of the Russian people, or its allies.

    I have asked all week the “Saker” to explain to its readers why Victoria Nuland was all smiles when she met with Putin this week, etc. he censors all comments that could make the supposedly great chess master look bad. Oh yeah… all the pro-Kremlin websites have made sure their readers would not see the pictures of Victoria Nuland strolling down the streets of Moscow, with Moscovites taking selfies with her, etc.

    Meanwhile, everyone has forgotten about the people being slaughtered in the Donbass.

    Putin sold out Assad, like he has sold out all its other allies before that.

    The language in the UN resolution on Syria, signed by Russia, implies that the Assad government has been killing civilians for years. And again, Russia signed that piece of paper.

    French political scientist Pierre Hillard, who has denounced globalization his entire career, has for years warned “dissidents” that Putin was not who they thought he was. He has for years warned that what we were seeing was just good cop/bad cop.

    There is another agenda at play. Arch-Zionist Putin, who passed a law to jail individuals that have questions on the official WWII narrative for FIVE years, does not work for his people, but for another entity.

    Just this week, Russia passed one of the weirdest laws ever: banning the use of biblical scriptures that could be assimilated to “anti-semitism”. How the hell do you enforce such a law?

    • Replies: @5371
    , @unvote
  3. 5371 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Why do you never get tired of repeating the same shitty predictions? Even a newspaper astrologer doesn’t print the same horoscope for someone day after day.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  4. utu says:

    W/o taking into the account the real Macher of the Middle East all analyses are incomplete. This includes Saker’s attempts to explain Putin’s motives and strategy. In fact Saker in the past displayed rather naive view of Israel. Time has come to answer the question why did Putin get the green light from Netanyahu? What is the real plan? What kind of game Israel is playing?

    Putin did not lie. Russia really does not care about Syria or its base there. Russia has no means to support extraterritorial bases with its meager navy while many bases in Russia are in decay. It is possible that Syria is Russia’s last stand. An attempt to negotiate a better position for Russia in the NWO. Saker might be right by saying that it all comes back to Ukraine. At least in Russians’, like Saker’s, minds. But what is going on in Israeli’s minds that is the question that one would die to know?

    • Replies: @5371
    , @unvote
    , @unvote
  5. @5371

    Prediction is based on experience and logic. It has nothing to do with a horoscope. What exactly is your argument based on. Try to convince me with facts.

    • Replies: @5371
  6. Two minutes of a Putin presser > everything Obama has ever uttered in his life.

  7. tbraton says:

    Very good post with a lot of information, but I’m a little surprised you didn’t mention the report carried by Bloomberg the other day how Russian radar systems employed in northern Syria have caused the Americans to circumscribe their air operations “against ISIS” there (with an occasional 30 mile detour to attack some Syrian army positions “by accident”). I guess having Russian radar “paint” American planes made the Americans a little nervous. I posted yesterday on Phil Giraldi’s blog in response to Kiza:

    “There was a report in Bloomberg just a day ago that the Russian air defense system is putting increasing restraint on American use (illegal) of Syrian air space. So it looks like saner heads in Washington may have regained control of the Syrian mess before it spiraled out of control. If that is the case, we may have rational players on both sides instead of just Putin. I hope I am not being foolishly naïve.”

    Is there any truth to that Bloomberg report, which mentions that Kerry brought the matter up in his meetings at the Kremlin? I was hoping you would discuss it so we could have your thinking about it.

    The other matter which I think is important is that the U.S. convinced Turkey to withdraw their forces from the base outside Mosul in northern Iraq after the Iraqis publicly complained about that invading force. I look at that as a positive sign in that the Americans probably concluded that, if they didn’t persuade the Turks to withdraw, the Iraqis might turn for help to the Russians who would be only too glad to pay back the Turks, who were operating illegally, by hurling some missiles at that Turkish force and killing a few hundred Turks as payback for Turkey’s downing of the Russian bomber. Am I reading too much into that action?

    • Replies: @tbraton
    , @Art
  8. 5371 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Thanks for sharing what you found in your fortune cookie.

  9. 5371 says:

    So you have nothing to say, but hint portentously all the same. Par for the course.

  10. 5371 says:

    There’s a remarkably efficient division of labour among you trolls. Troll 1 said Putin is soon going to be defeated. Troll 2 – you – says Putin is working for the other side. Troll 3 will say Putin is irrelevant. Does this smooth organisation happen accidentally?

    • Replies: @Chaban
    , @tbraton
  11. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I too wonder about Putin. Is he really working for the Zionists? If so not wanting a base in Syria would make sense in the long run as it would be in the interests of Isreal. The thing is Putin acts tough and makes good decisions countering a country like Turkey, but when has he ever done anything to counter Isreal? Does Putin see Isreal as THE major threat or does he see them as a potential ally? If the later Putin is not the grand chess player people make him out to be.

  12. Chaban says:

    You are the troll, hence your attacks on the messengers instead of the messages. What I listed in my first posting are FACTS, notably Russia’s now infamous iteration of the despicable “Gayssot law” in France.

    Also, you guys someday will have to explain to us how the “Saker community” popped up, just like that, across the globe all of a sudden.

    You will have to explain to us why a guy who has been predicted the imminent collapse of the U.S. for years decided to make Florida his home and also, by his own admission, is having his. Hidden attend U.S. colleges… why would you have your children study to get a degree in a system that is about to collapse? Why not send them to school in Moscow or St. Petersburg? Plus it would be much cheaper.

    Bottom line is, this guy, Saker, is a fraud. Period.

    I have tremendous respect for the Russian people. But to me, their politicians are just like ours. And that includes Putin. That’s all.

    • Replies: @5371
    , @utu
    , @annamaria
    , @Karl
  13. 5371 says:

    [attacks on the messengers instead of the messages]

    No, I pointed out the strangely perfect coordination of the messages.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  14. utu says:

    “But to me, their politicians are just like ours. And that includes Putin. That’s all.”

    Absolutely. Who did false flag bombing against its own people in 1999? Yet we may and should have sympathy for Putin and Russia and we should root for their cause simply because they are underdogs trying to rebalance the ecosystem of power. The unipolar world with only one predator is the worst nightmare for common people. In terms of freedom, liberty and diversity of ideas the unipolar world will be a disaster.

  15. Svigor says:

    The fact that the Americans gave that information to the Turks is bad enough, but the fact that the Turks then used that information to shoot down a Russian aircraft makes the US directly responsible.

    No, it doesn’t, you pinhead. “Directly responsible” = firing the missile, or ordering it fired. US is incapable of being directly responsible for a Turkish missile being fired by Turkish forces from Turkish territory. You idiot.

    The USA is also responsible by the simple fact that there is no way the Turks could have set up this complex ambush without the USA knowing about it.

    Wrong again, moron. Knowing something is going to happen doesn’t make a party responsible for the event in question.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  16. Svigor says:

    Has USG confirmed or denied giving flight plan data to Turkey? Because this accusation makes no sense to me. It seems obvious to me that the whole point of Russia giving that data to USG was so they’d share it with NATO, Turkey in particular, to avoid sticky situations like Turkey being able to plausibly deny knowing it was a Russian jet they were shooting down. But the fact that USG has said nothing on the matter (at least, not trumpeted in a thousand articles as is the norm for that kind of thing) suggests I have it wrong.

  17. Avery says:

    {First, there were some very unambiguous statements from John Kerry in Moscow. The most noticed ones were:
    “As I emphasized today, the United States and our partners are not seeking so-called “regime change,” as it is known in Syria” source.} (The Saker)

    Didn’t take too long for the strings of the puppet Lurch to be yanked.

    [‘US not after regime change in Syria, but Assad must go’ – Kerry to Russian TV]

    Apparently in the up-side-down Bizzaro world of US State Dept, not seeking so-called “regime change” means the same thing as “Assad must go”.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  18. given Saker’s track record….whatever he predicts, assume the opposite will happen. As for Putin, he continues to do the absolute minimum to protect Russian State and strategic interests. And he’s still way, way out on a limb in Syria. Later or sooner, the Zio-globalists will move to cut the limb. What would Putin do if he were a true Maker of History? Seize Constantinople

    • Replies: @Chaban
  19. Chaban says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    Exactly. The guy’s always wrong.

    Did you see what happened in Damascus last night? So much for S-400 Triumph.

    But don’t believe for a second that this is weakness. I am now convinced that Russia is in on the game and that Putin and Obama have mislead the world in a good cop/bad cop routine.

    They are both helping in the creation of greater Israel and the destruction of Europe.

  20. unvote says:

    Exactly! You put it absolutely right. Fully agree with your observation and I am pointing on the same threats in my other comments. For that I was immediately labelled as an “agent of Fifth column” . We see that every genuine patriot of Russia, and therefore the antagonist to Putin and his policy, automatically becomes an “enemy” of Russia. Even the slightest criticism gets immediately attacked either by his army of the professional shills or by his gullible fans.

    Agree on the “Saker” as well. I’ve long ago noticed that the Saker’s narratives are always pro-Putin. This is why I stopped reading him. Too bad that he has so many followers and these people are keeping to buy into it all.

    Just this week, Russia passed one of the weirdest laws ever: banning the use of biblical scriptures that could be assimilated to “anti-semitism”. How the hell do you enforce such a law?

    Wow…I didn’t yet hear about adobting such an openly hostile anti-Christian “law” here in Russia. Could you, please, provide the link? I’ll investigate it using Russian sources as well. If true, then it would mean that the masks are thrown off. Pretending to be such a “genuine Orthodox Christian” would be then a lot harder. However…all these 15 years of his presidency perfectly demonstrate us that any role is easy (and suitable) for such a brilliant actor like Putin. Not so long ago he was a “hero”, right now he is playing a “peacemaker”. Although, the people of Donbass don’t think so anymore, after they’ve learned the cruelest and deadliest lesson of Putin’s treachery. Now, indeed, is Assad’s turn to learn the same lesson.

    • Replies: @Chaban
    , @5371
  21. What is clear, to US/NATO’s suprise, is that Russia’s air defense systems have overtaken NATO’s systems in Syria.

    Radar + base communications jamming on Fxx fighters. The pilots will only hear Russian.
    Apart from the Bloomberg report, PCR had an article about it.

    Unless the US starts a full blown, planetary war, the Russians command the Syrian air space.
    The Russians can bomb all NATO ME airbases simultaneously, within the hour. The missile detection rate by US will be small.

    Putin and Lavrov are serious about Geopolitical terrorism by the US, Brezinkskys grand chessboard. So no splitup of Syria, or else.

    This is a true and real Russian national interest, as Putin has explained in a televised address to the Russian people.

    So far, all is out in the open, by Russia. The former KGB man, has become almost a true democrat!

    • Replies: @RobinG
  22. tbraton says:

    With respect to the last paragraph of my prior message dealing with the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Mosul, I came across this little item (I know nothing about the news organization carrying the item):

    “Iraqi parliamentarians want Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi to request Russian aid in combating ISIS. Washington is going all-out to prevent it.

    On Wednesday, Defense Secretary Ashton Carter arrived in Baghdad to warn him against accepting Putin’s help. He’s stopped short of asking so far – for how long remains to be seen. Iraq has no chance to defeat its scourge without it.”

  23. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    “If Putin does not want to control things in Syria why are the Russians there.”
    You should go back to grammar school. After “Syria”, you forgot a comma. Since the above is meant to be a question, where is the question mark?

    P.S.: If the Native Americans are supposed to live in the country of the brave and the free, why are non-natives here?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @anon
    , @tbraton
  24. Wow. Between the NATO-bots and the Duginites, poor Saker (and Putin) just can’t win here. I’ve followed Saker’s blog for over two years now, and he’s been right more often than wrong. Nobody’s predictions are 100%, but he’s been pretty good on the important points. And when he’s been wrong, he’s admitted it and moved on.

    • Agree: Thirdeye
  25. 5371 says:

    There’s nothing genuine or patriotic about you. As your colleagues have let slip, you are part of a well-rehearsed anti-Russian propaganda campaign appearing under false pretenses. The Saker has you and your like dead to rights.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  26. tbraton says:

    If you look at the record, you will notice an interesting pattern:

    Regnum Nostrum – total of 12 posts – first post on 12/11/15

    unvote – total of 15 posts – first post on 12/16/15

    uto – total of 10 posts – first post on 12/14/15

    sdonne – total of 10 posts – first post on 9/14/15

    They frequently respond to each other’s posts and invariably agree with each other’s posts. Occasionally, Wizard of Ooze will “agree” with the post one of the group.

    What is one to conclude from this mysterious collection of facts? It’s a real puzzler.

  27. utu says:

    Where is the MODERATOR? The attacks at the author (SAER) of the article are way too high in volume and intensity and the posts of the attackers do not contain comments concerning the article.

  28. A good analysis, although AngloZionist is a catchphrase that makes it difficult to repost. Many who would profit from it would choke at “Zionist.” Yes, I know the backstory about the enormous influence of AIPAC, but for those who don’t, it would detract from the article’s more widespread credibility. Unless it’s actually a story detailing the nature of Zionism, I think it confuses the issue for a general audience, and is not relevant to the particular subject. Just a suggestion.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @RobinG
  29. KA says:

    The idea was to create a “sunnistan” encompassing Eastern Syria and Western Iraq . The number of actors with full future benefits from the arrangement include Israel,Qatar,Turkey,and Saudi. One can say that Saudi joined the fray not to be left out of th
    e developing realities and out of fear ,paranoia and total tribal safeguarding of dynastic interest

    The reality dawned on Saudi after the successful resistance of Hizbullah and after the exposures of the determined neocon’s efforts to splinter Syria .

    So will these actors now change ? I doubt. Obviously they have to come to US again ( they may not have left despite Kerry’s promises ) . How will they manage ?
    Obviously a general atmosphere of terror , false flag within US,France,and UK combined with hatred and polemics wont hurt and will keep the western chariot ready for war.

    Putin may not be able to escape so easily. America can always use the ‘soft power” of freedom of expression,election,gay right,sniper aiming at the crowd , out of blue public agitation for popular ideas and obviously the Caucasian warlords. It can even portray Putin as anti Christian to dent his support .

  30. Art says:

    “The other matter which I think is important is that the U.S. convinced Turkey to withdraw their forces from the base outside Mosul in northern Iraq after the Iraqis publicly complained about that invading force”

    Turkey has been caught with its pants down – its support of ISIS is now known to all. It does not have a world media machine like the Jews – it cannot hide its evil like the Jew do.

    The world opinion against ISIS is so great that not even the Western Jew media can counter the truth of Turkey’s misdeeds. (Don’t you know it – Israeli Jews was reselling ISIS oil from Turkey.)

    The whole thing is just to dirty – the Zionist foreign policy of the US government had no choice but to put the breaks on Turkey.

  31. Anonymous [AKA "Sdonne"] says:

    Your count does not include the dozens of posts I’ve had censored on ” the saker”.

    You guys keep attacking messengers without ever discussing the facts we highlight.

  32. unvote says:

    Mishit. Sometimes the commenters are just the commenters, dude. I can any time express that I agree or disagree with anyone and that doesn’t make me a “group”, except only in your imagination. According to your twisted logic anyone can be a “group” then, including you. Get a life.

    • Replies: @utu
  33. @Anonymous

    I have no idea why you wrote that comment but would like to deter you from making, or appearing to try and make, trivial points about grammar which are not even clearly correct.

    While it is certainly the convention in English to put a question mark at the end of a sentence containing a question [and why only at the end someone who speaks a language where the convention is to put one also at the beginning might ask] it is only of minor importance to ensuring rapid comprehension if there are clues like the word “why” used unambiguously to ask a question – just as tone of voice may suffice in oral communication.

    You are on just as shaky ground with commas. Historically commas, semi-colons and colons were, or were often, part of a scheme designed to indicate pause length for rhetorical effect in speech. Now they are exclusively an aid to conveying meaning unambiguously and efficiently. Typically to stop the reader from having to go back and check the proper grouping of words in a sentence. That is how I have used them above and, following the general rule that redundant punctuation should be avoided, no comma was needed in the sentence you quote. (I presume you have quoted it correctly as the medium I am using makes it difficult to check on the run).

    • Replies: @geokat62
  34. utu says:

    “Sometimes the commenters are just the commenters” Exactly. Not having a clue about statistical distributions within a population some minds draw statistically invalid conclusions about patterns. Sex maniac will see a piece genitals anywhere and persons with persecution complex will see oppressors everywhere…Supposedly autistic persons have proclivity to look for patterns.

    I would like the MODERATOR to curtail the meta-discussion and redirect the commenters to the topic of Saker’s article. Hunting real or imaginary trolls is trolling itself, of the worst kind.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  35. RobinG says:
    @Max Havelaar

    “…. the Russians command the Syrian air space.” I wish you were right. Look what happened yesterday.

    Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV said two Israeli warplanes that violated Syrian airspace fired four long-range missiles at the residential building in Jaramana. It aired footage of what it said was the building, which appeared to be destroyed. Kantar’s brother, Bassam, confirmed his “martyrdom” in a Facebook post on Sunday.

    • Replies: @Max Havelaar
  36. @Anonymous

    I think Putin is smart enough to know that Israel is looking at Russia as a new host plant.

  37. RobinG says:
    @Jim Mooney

    “General Audiences” need to be brought up to speed.

    • Replies: @Jim Mooney
  38. utu says:

    In my first comment (comment #4) I was concerned about the role of Israel and its power and influence on Putin’s moves in Syria. Putin’s tough talk after the shooting down of Su-24 and beefing up of anti-aircraft defenses with S-300 and S-400 did not stop Israel from attacking Hezbollah commanders on the outskirts of Damascus yesterday. Is Russia going to tolerate it or is it part of a secret deal Putin made with Netanyahu?

    • Replies: @Chaban
  39. @RobinG

    I guess south-syria isnot covered yet, or else some Putin deal with Netanyahu. Which would be a pity.

  40. @5371

    “No, I pointed out the strangely perfect coordination of the messages.”

    Possibly by a troll tag team.

  41. annamaria says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    The author has already gave a response to your Q: “Russia has no intention of ever become an empire again simply because being an empire is bad for Russia. All Russia wants is to be a truly sovereign state and not to be a colony of the AngloZionists, but she has no intention whatsoever of becoming an “anti-USA” or a “Soviet Union reloaded”.

    Or perhaps they see an example of how not to do:
    “…from the massive Camp Victory outside Baghdad to tiny outposts in the hinterlands, not to speak of the three-quarters-of-a-billion dollar citadel Washington built in Baghdad’s green zone to house an embassy meant to be the central command post for a future Pax Americana in the region, the Pentagon built 505 bases in Iraq. In other words, Washington went on a base-building bender there. And lest you imagine this as some kind of anomaly, consider the 800 or more bases and outposts (depending on how you counted them) that the U.S. built in Afghanistan. Eight years later, all 505 of the Iraqi bases had been abandoned, as most of the Afghan ones would be.”

    The Federal Reserve has a printing press for the primal currency, hence the feats of unaccountability and sheer stupidity…

  42. annamaria says:

    “…their politicians are just like ours”
    Correct. But the story is not about a person whom Mrs. Clinton calls “Hitler,” but about the Russian federation’ straggle to fight off the approaching and amoral parasitoids. As for where to educate your children, this is your personal solution and only yours. This is a free country.

  43. annamaria says:

    was not the “Russian-made Buk” was the main point of accusations that the US leveled against Russian federation re MH-17?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Kiza
  44. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Fighting terrorism.

  45. geokat62 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Wiz, on the basis of this comment, I hereby rechristen you, “the Wizard of Pedantry.”

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  46. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Agreed. The different handles are pretending to respond to each other. Just a game being played.

    • Agree: tbraton
  47. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Perhaps Putin doesn’t want to control Syria. Perhaps he wants to sharpen the spear in Syria. Perhaps he wants to send the international community a message about Russian might.

  48. unvote says:

    Thank you for the link. Yes, indeed, the law you mentioned was enacted on 11th of November 2015 by the Russian State Duma and signed by president Putin. It’s full title: “Article 3_1. Features of the application of the legislation of the Russian Federation on countering extremist activities in respect of religious texts”:

    It is insidious law, in fact. It implies that none of the religious writings – Bible, Koran, Torah, etc, can be interpretated and used against the religious feelings of the believers. It is surely designed to act in favor of the Jews in Russia (google Berel Lazar, the Chief Rabbi of Russia) to satisfy their constant complaints about “growing anti-semitism in Russia”. The trick is that this law can work both ways, and both are working against Orthodox Christians, i.e. the law can interpret and ban as “anti-semitic extremism” the citing of the quotes and excerpts from the Bible where the Jews are described negatively and blamed for many sins (Pharisees, etc)…And, at the same time, this the same law protects such extremist, fascist and misanthropic religious books as Jewish “Talmud”, “Torah” and “Shulchan Aruch”, factually tolerating the extreme hatred like this: “Act 2: Akum (Christian) are not to be considered by Jews as people” or this: “Law 26: Benefit from the fraud against Christian belongs to the Jewish owner”.

    So, as I said, the masks dropped. It is clear that Putin signed this law for a certain purposes. One must be completely blind to not see it. And he actually doesn’t hide his very warm relationships with Israel and with those Chabad guys, also known as Lubavitch, the Hasidic sect. Some call them the “Zionists”…No comments, as they say.

    P.S. “Appeal to the General Prosecutor of the Russian Federation”

    “Appeal to the General Prosecutor of the Russian Federation Vladimir Ustinov” and the signing of it by about 500 persons, including 19 members of the Duma.”

    “The “letter of 500” and the authors and signatories are accused of “anti-Semitism” because that letter demands from the Attorney General “to officially begin a criminal process in order to prohibit in our country all the religious and national Jewish organizations as extremist.”

    “In the “Letter of 500” this demand is motivated by the opinion of the authors and, therefore, the signatories, that the existing Jewish law, according to which such entities conduct their work, and summarized in the book “Shulchan Aruch”, published in Russia in 2001 in Russian language, is subject to the relevant articles of the Criminal Code, the Law “On Countering Extremist Activity” (2002) and Art. 13 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation (“the establishment and the functioning of public associations whose objectives are aimed at inciting social, racial, national and religious hatred”). The “Letter of 500″ also refers to a work of certain Dr. K. Ecker who interprets the laws of the Shulchan Aruch.”

  49. @geokat62

    Only my labrador could express more abject gratitude to you. No one has said such nice things about me since kindergarten. Sadly my attempt to ring appreciation out of family members for years of constructive and instructive precision is unrewarding.

    BTW what do you make of the would-be pedant’s misfired attempts to use his punctuation points in argument? Attempted satire or not on his medication or…?

  50. tbraton says:

    I notice that Wizard of Ooze responded to your criticism of “Regnum Nostrum,” a poster I singled out four days ago for his relatively new creation (as a poster on and for bearing an uncanny resemblance to Wizard of Ooze. I am sure that was pure coincidence (just as Wizard of Ooze rushed to the defense of “Deduction” back in August) and not simply a mistake by Wizard of Ooze forgetting which name he was posting under, possibly because of having imbibed a glass too many of wine before dinner. BTW here is what I said in my post of four days ago: “He also states in this message “I do not understand why would anybody take this man seriously.” That line to me sounds suspiciously like something the Wizard of Ooze would say, who, just the other day, called, in effect, for a boycott of Mike’s blog. (Compare the line above to one on the Wizard of Ooze’s message of a few days ago: “What reason is there to use one’s time reading Mike Whitney?”) ” There is also the uncanny coincidence that all these characters post on just two blogs, The Saker and Mike Whitney. I do believe we have uncovered an “Axis of Weevils.”

  51. unvote says:

    Don’t die please. Perhaps the following would give you a clue. One of the versions of their plan is to restore the “Khazarian Kingdom”, which existed in 10th century and occupied exactly the part of eastern territory of Ukraine and part of Russia, namely the Donetsk, Lugansk, Rostov, Krasnodar and Crimea regions.

    The Khazarian kingdom was destroyed by the Russian Prince Oleg, so maybe there is also a revenge to Russians is among their other goals. The slaughter of the civilians in Donbass that the Kiev’s regime is calling the “ATO” is nothing other but ethnic cleansing of the Russian and pro-Russian population of the region: part of them are supposed to flee to Russia, part is to assimilate and the rest of the local people, the most active and capable for resistance, are doomed to be totally destroyed. As we can see, all of this is taking place today. This is the “preparing” of the territory for the Jews who would then all move from Israel to settle in those lands and create their “New Khazaria”.

    More details on here:

    A remarkable book “Invisible Khazaria” contains fundamental research by the head of the department of geopolitics at the Military Academy of Russia, Colonel Tatyana Gracheva. The reader would learn not only about “Khazaria’s project” but much much more:

    • Replies: @RobinG
  52. To those who comment tendentiously without acknowledging the obvious….There is absolutely nothing prima facie sinister about the Turks using information from the US directly or via NATO derived from Russia giving the US information about its flights in Syria so as to avoid clashes. Implicitly, if not explicitly (because it was too obvious to need spelling out) Russia would have been entrusting the US with the task of ensuring that its own and its allies’ aircraft avoided clashes with Russian aircraft when their flight plans were known in advance.

    If it is true that Erdogan at one stage claimed the decision to shoot down the Russian bomber was made by him it was probably true because his motives are not difficult to guess. One would be applause within Turkey for the strong man standing up against the traditional enemy. Another would be to put a spoke in US-Russian co-operation and put NATO on a spot whereby it was compromised by not having prevented the attack and, equally to the point, not having felt able to criticise Turkey for the cowardly ambush using information passed to it in good faith to enable such incidents to be avoided.

  53. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Skeletons In The Closet

    Excerpt #1: “You of Earth have been given two reprieves, the third shall not be given as such. It is a final WARNING that will come and you will know that the ending play will not be reversed. What you do, however, will make a difference in magnificence as to what shall be your experience.

    As a signal, I would suggest that whatever your “religion”, you pay attention- – -when the Pope of the Vatican flees Rome and seeks refuge in another land- – -KNOW THAT THE TIME IS RIPE! It will take place in secrecy but the word shall be leaked out that he has fled.” Phoenix Journal # 13, Chapter 1, page 17

    Excerpt #2: “Heed well this reminder- -watch unto Syria for therein lies the solution of world peace OR the third war of your world. It will be the destruction of three-quarters of the world. A world aflame followed by the great comet Ball of Redemption as it is sometimes called.” Phoenix Journal # 13, Chapter 2, page 28

    Commander Gyeorgos Ceres Hatonn

  54. tbraton says:

    “I would like the MODERATOR to curtail the meta-discussion and redirect the commenters to the topic of Saker’s article. Hunting real or imaginary trolls is trolling itself, of the worst kind.”

    I don’t know why you are wasting your words on “unvote.” Earlier today, “unvote,” who first posted on on December 16, four days ago, stated in one of his posts that he no longer reads The Saker’s blogs:

    “”Agree on the “Saker” as well. I’ve long ago noticed that the Saker’s narratives are always pro-Putin. This is why I stopped reading him.” ” [Notice how he implies he started reading The Saker “long ago” but only got around to posting just four days ago.]

    Since he has admitted he no longer reads The Saker, why would he waste his time reading the comments to The Saker’s blogs? That doesn’t make even a gram of sense to me. You clowns need to get your act together.

    BTW did you notice the similarity between “unvote”‘s comment that he no longer reads The Saker to Wizard of Ooze’s comment that everybody should no longer read Mike Whitney’s blogs and Regnum Nostrum’s similar comment that no one should take Mike Whitney seriously? Sounds like a boycott organized by Wizard of Ooze to me. When I discover that I no longer get any value from reading a particular blogger or poster, I simply no longer read him. I don’t waste my time urging others not to read him. And, btw, if I find a blogger not to my taste, I certainly don’t waste my time posting comments on his blog. I think Wizard of Ooze bears an uncanny resemblance to Enrique Marquez, Steve Sailer’s Man of the Year for 2015.

  55. Chaban says:

    Sssssshhhh… don’t you know that asking logical questions makes you a troll?

    I guess that’s the FSB’s new strategy to deflect any criticism of arch-Zionist Putin.

    • Replies: @unvote
  56. unvote says:

    The last link I gave – the web page appears without the content, don’t know why. Perhaps they removed it.

    Here is another one, with a link to the book:

  57. @RobinG

    True. But then a link explaining a phrase most are not familiar with, should be supplied. I’m trying to get this info out to a more general audience that doesn’t understand, lest we all just preach to the choir ;’)

  58. @Chaban

    VVP is the only leader in the world daring to stand up to the Zempire. And that’s why some people are getting nervous and think that an army of trolls slandering him will have any success. But it will not. Not in this day and age when there are enough sources of real info.

    • Replies: @utu
  59. RobinG says:

    Since you’re already slithering into this rabbit warren, maybe you should take this along with you:

    The Donmeh sect of Judaism was founded in the 17th century by Rabbi Sabbatai Zevi, a Kabbalist who believed he was the Messiah but was forced to convert to Islam by Sultan Mehmet IV, the Ottoman ruler. Many of the rabbi’s followers, known as Sabbateans, but also “crypto-Jews,” publicly proclaimed their Islamic faith but secretly practiced their hybrid form of Judaism, which was unrecognized by mainstream Jewish rabbinical authorities. Because it was against their beliefs to marry outside their sect, the Dönmeh created a rather secretive sub-societal clan.

    The Dönmeh: The Middle East’s Most Whispered Secret (Part I)

    The Dönmeh: The Middle East’s Most Whispered Secret (Part II)

    • Replies: @Art
    , @geokat62
  60. @tbraton

    Unless I’ve missed some irony I am delighted to be compared to anyone Steve Sailer may have chosen as man of the year. But I have a couple of problems with your post. One is that I haven’t urged people not to read Mike Whitney’s columns. The paranoid conspiracy finding spirit is too strong on these blogs it seems to recognise the uncomplicated and straightforward. I asked as I recall for anyone to explain why Mike Whitney should be regarded as worth reading on any subject. I gave some indication of why I was asking that question. That was what I genuinely invited. All I got in reply that I remember was that he had written a lot about some subject for 15 years!

    My other problem is with the childish repetition of “Wizard of Ooze”. All very well for someone either as an insult or because he fancies he’s been clever to think of it to say once e.g. “from the blogger whose turgid output makes me want to rename him ‘Wizard of Ooze’ ” but it smacks of the school playground to repeat the none-to-clever jibe. Consider how childish it would seem if someone repeatedly substituted “Ron Ants” for our publisher’s name, “Peter Frigid” for Peter Frost or “Rabid Carnivore” for Razib Khan.

    It may be just a matter of taste but it does strike me as unsophisticated sophomoric if not simply childish playground jeering.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  61. @Anonymous

    Of course Putin doesn’t see Israel as THE major threat unless one concocts some long chain of influence by Israel on events vitally important to Russia that Putin is supposed to believe Israel has. It is a small country with no territorial interests in or near Russia. Its birthrate and standard of living are such as to make it vanishingly unlikely that it will provide terrorists within Russia or attacking Russian diplomatic or commercial outposts.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  62. @tbraton

    It might be good for your sanity if Ron were asked to certify (perhaps with degrees of probability) the non-troll status of particular Commenters. He would of course ask such commenters whether they wished to be so certified and it is quite possible that some might respond by saying, in effect, that they enjoyed the displays of stupidity, paranoia and anxiety too much for it to be worth being free of suspicion of being hasbara, an apologist for the government version on WTC7, a sceptic about the prevalence of false flag operations, and an all purpose doubter about suspicion attaching to the Ukraine generally and the downing oh MH17 in particular (to which add MH370).

    • Replies: @Karl
  63. tbraton says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “But I have a couple of problems with your post. One is that I haven’t urged people not to read Mike Whitney’s columns. ”

    And you wonder why I refer to you as “Wizard of Ooze”? In the very message to which you are replying, I specifically quoted the line you used not long ago on Mike Whitney’s blog: “What reason is there to use one’s time reading Mike Whitney?” If that does not constitute a strong suggestion to others not to waste their time reading Mike Whitney’s blogs, then why did you write it? You didn’t merely say that YOU weren’t going to use YOUR time reading Mike Whitney’s blogs, you questioned why anyone would use his time reading Mike Whitney’s blogs. Of course, if you decided that reading Mike Whitney’s blogs was a waste of your time, you could have simply stopped reading his blogs and walk away and say nothing, just as I suggested in an earlier message. That’s what I do all the time. So simple even a cave man can do it. The fact that you deny saying any such thing in the face of the direct quote staring you in the face just further demonstrates what an oily, slippery, and completely dishonest man you are, Wizard of Ooze.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Wizard of Oz
  64. utu says:
    @FLOR solitaria

    “VVP is the only leader in the world daring to stand up to the Zempire.” We have lots of evidence to believe this statement is true. However, we also realize that VVP cannot conquer the Zempire. Therefore one must wonder what kind of compromise VVP is hoping to achieve? And what is the role of Israel in this? Will this compromise be at expense of Assad? And looking further, is China concerned that VVP may obtain too good a deal from the Zempire to detriment of China? Clearly the Zempire wants to deal with Russia and Chine one at a time. So, many things can go wrong. I am just apprehensive that with limited chess pieces that VVP has in his possession he will get outplayed by a lesser chess master who has a superior suit of chess figures.

    • Replies: @FLOR solitaria
  65. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Yeah right lol.

    No territorial interest. Where have we heard that one before?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  66. @Chaban

    I fully agree with the 9/11 Truth “conspiracy theory” that 9/11 was a false-flag attack. Because that conspiracy theory is be based on solid evidence that cannot be, and has not been effectively disputed or dealt with by anyone. Whereas the conspiracy theory being floated on this thread about Putin being some sort of a super-Zionist double agent is obviously being trotted out by Zionist trolls for the purpose of sowing confusion in the minds of readers. If not, you would offer at least some evidence to back it up. But I have seen none. Which leads me to conclude you are simply adhering firmly to the Mossad motto; “By deception thou shalt make war.” 5th columnist posing as anti-war commenters (like you) and anti-war writers (like the editors at the Jew-run web site, are as easy to spot as orange jump suits in a snow bank. You just have to know where to look.

  67. Kiza says:

    The Fool of Ooze achieved his 15 minutes of fame by stating not so long ago that the US and the Russian interests in Syria are the same – fighting ISIS.

    I hope The Fool will not challenge me the way he challenged you to have to search through his comments for the quote. I will not waste time.

  68. @Anonymous

    As I said “in or near Russia” so how would you found your scepticism or case if you added that in?

  69. @Kiza

    No I can absolutely rely on the more perceptive readers of these comments to assume that one with your standards of literacy and logic has misrepresented what was said or missed a nuance or conditional statement.

    And if I said anything that could be so represented it would be their real interests on assumptions A,B and C. I can envisage hypothesising that they would have some shared interest and posing explicitly or by implication the question as to what might follow from that. But I appreciate that you suffer from passion if not an agenda so undrrstanding that would not be uour thing.

  70. @tbraton

    I’m sorry a difference in English usage has got in the way of understanding. When I got most of my formal education in Australia and in England the use of “one” as I apparently did would not have been understood to be meaning “anyone” – certainly not with a further translation into a recommendation to others – but would have been accepted as the normal way of removing ego from the utterance. Mind you one was conscious of the peculiarity because I can remember jokes being made many years ago at the way an older friend of similar educational background used the “one think” form to excess. I may read the rest of your reply if time allows but thought it worth replying to your founding misconception. Still wondering why I should bothet with Mike Whitney.

  71. @Kiza

    Now I have checked and invite anyone who wants to waste time confirming that Kiza’s understanding of the English language or his memory, or both, are unreliable by reading the whole of what he and I said on 25th October under The Saker’s Third Week of Russia in Syria. Unfortunately some dull and earnest people tried to be very literal with little success in advancing understanding or discussion. I suppose some were upset at what might appear to be a flippant suggestion that the US ignore Israel’s preferences and ME oil and leave it to others to wade into the mess.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  72. Kiza says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    That statement is much more than flippant, my compatriot. As I suggested on another comment of yours, you were dropped onto Earth from another planet, but onto your head: US to ignore Israel’s preferences!?!?!? Now that would be like John Cena ignoring the Vince McMahon’s ass:

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  73. @Kiza

    OMG! you passed the language test. And did you have to know about Phar Lap and Don Bradman? Convict ancestry sort of grandfathered me.

    Well you haven’t passed the language test here again. I didn’t say that what I had said was flippant but that what I had said might appear to some to be flippant. (A better single epithet would have been “hypothetical” ).

    Of course it is vanishingly unlikely that the US will ignore what the Israel lobbyists say Israel’s interests and preferences are and even what they really are. But America’s real interests would be served by letting Russia fight it out with ISIL/ISIS and even entrench itself in the ME so that Russia might become as uneasy as Israel or Saudi Arabia at the prospect of Iran going nuclear. So what that Assad might survive under Russian protection and tutelage. Downside for US? No one so so scared of it any longer? Well it always has its drones to scare them with.

  74. Kiza says:

    Damn, I did not pass that English language test that the distinguished Anglo-Zionist gentleman set up for me here. But the consolation is that, as a friend of mine said, you AngloZios could only be barking if you did not speak Englsh. On the other hand, someone could say that I never wrote that the destiguished gentleman said for himself that he was flippant, then I just set the second stage i.e. comparative: worse than flippant, whithout specifying who used the positive degree of the adjective flippant.

    The rest of the comment is the usual pie-in-the-sky (of another planet) rant, the totally worn out Zio talking point of Nuclear Iran and other blah, blah, which deserve zero response.

    I really have other things to do then to sit for an English language test at H.R.M. Fool of Ooze language school.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  75. utu says:

    “The noises coming out of Germany have been strange and contradictory for some time… really, if one goes all the way back to the aftermath of World War Two, but, more recently under Frau Merkel’s government. Now it is in favor of a more active and interventionist foreign policy, now it isn’t; now it does have enough troops and equipment to support France, then it did not. Yesterday it would not cooperate in any venture In Syria without an agreement that Assad must go; now it seems ready to reopen its embassy in Damascus”

    • Replies: @Kiza
  76. Art says:

    Thanks RobinG === a must read.

  77. geokat62 says:

    Hi, Robin.

    I tried the links above and both take me to the same webpage, showcasing about a dozen articles, none of which seem to be related to the topic you noted above. Am I missing something?

    • Replies: @RobinG
  78. geokat62 says:

    Avery, just wanted to pick up where we left off last time (week 7 comments, I believe) we discussed the issue of “bargaining chips.” Here’s your previous comment:

    geokat62: They needed a bargaining chip with which to entice the Russians to abandon the Syrians and Iranians…}

    Avery: Ukraine is no bargaining chip.
    Ukraine, Kievan Rus, is the cradle of Russia.
    Nothing for Russia to bargain away there.
    Russia does not want trouble there right now: she is biding her time.
    Testing, demonstrating,a and improving her military in actual combat.
    Some T-160s flew a long circuitous rout over the Atlantic, skirting UK, to bomb Syria: there was a reason. A message.

    There is nothing Neocons have to entice either Russia or Iran to abandon Syria. And both Russian and Iranian leaders know Neocons are mortal enemy to both. Neocons’ ultimate goal is not Syria or Iran: their goal is dismemberment of Russia. Dismemberment of Syria, then Iran, is part of the Grand plan to get to Russia.
    So far they have failed.

    Russia and Iran have not pulled all stops to save Syria to bargain it away.
    They need to save Syria to secure a Shia arc, in order to block the cancerous spread of Sunni Wahhabism, aided and abetted by Neocon psychos.

    I just stumbled upon this recent article as I was trying to access a couple of articles RobinG linked to in another thread (thanks, RobinG):

    US Secretary of State John Kerry was in Moscow this week bearing what can only be described as a bribe to Russia. The unspoken essence of Washington’s arm twisting towards Moscow is this: give us Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad’s head on a platter – and we’ll call off the dogs of war in Ukraine. The latter part of the deal also comes with the added “sweetener» that the US and its European allies would lift economic sanctions off Russia.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Avery
    , @Art
    , @annamaria
  79. Avery says:


    You will read all sorts of stuff in the blogosphere, as I am sure you well know.
    Some of it is authentic: a lot is misinformation and disinformation.
    And obviously I have no inside information: whatever assertions I make is based on my knowledge of public information and my analysis, my interpretation.

    It is quite possible this offer was made to Putin: {give us Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad’s head on a platter – and we’ll call off the dogs of war in Ukraine.}. However he will not bite.

    Putin knows the following:

    1. West made the same offer to Gorbachev about not expanding NATO Eastward. They lied, and lied, and lied, ….
    2. NATO is still trying to entice Republic of Georgia into its orbit.
    3. NATO recently offered membership to Montenegro, right next to Serbia.
    4. Neocons will not call off the dogs in Ukraine. They have no dogs to call off. Their dogs were badly mauled by Novorossiya patriots. Other than Azov battalion Neo-Nazi scum, Ukrainians are avoiding the draft like the plague. Novorossiyan patriots are now a very competent fighting force.
    5. There is nothing more EU or Neocons can do against Russia in Ukraine. Time is on the side of Novorussians and Russia. They sit and wait for Porky to make a move: then they will liberate more of Novorossiya.
    6. Whatever EU, US, Neocons promise Russia is a lie: they will never honor their promises. Ever.

    {The latter part of the deal also comes with the added “sweetener» that the US and its European allies would lift economic sanctions off Russia.}

    Sanctions have caused hardship to Russian economy, but have also caused billions of lost sales to EU countries. Russia is slowly adapting. Russia knows she must win the sanctions staredown and immunize itself, because EU will do it again. Other countries are lining up to replace EU agriculture (e.g. beef from Argentina, Brazil,…)

    There is an ugly saying that applies here: “doing someone a favour with somebody else’s arse”. US Neocons are using and abusing EU for their geopolitical goals. Sanctions are highly unpopular amongst the EU people.

    And nobody knows what Putin and his inner circle are thinking or planning.
    Case in point: there were all sorts of theories about what Russians would do in Crimea. All sorts of talking heads confidently asserting that Putin would do this or that.
    Then one morning everybody woke up to Russian “little green men” appearing out of nowhere, and it was all over.

    Putin is a Russian patriot.
    He is not a drunkard like Yeltsin. Or an idiot (or agent) like Gorbachev.
    He has an experienced team around him.
    Medvedev is a little weak, but others are experienced patriots as well.
    They know what Neocons have in mind for Russia.

    Petrushev (the spy chief) wrote an article about Neocon plans for Russia a while back.
    If I find it, I will post the link: must read if you want to have idea what Russians think of Neocons.
    Nobody in Russia has any illusions.
    Russian people are firmly behind their leadership, and are gradually turning against the West.
    Russia may husband her resources here and there, but Ukraine, Syria, and Iran are non negotiable.

    At least that’s the way I see it.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Avery
    , @geokat62
    , @annamaria
  80. Avery says:

    Here is short version from RT.
    But there is a longer one: he details the reasons why Neocons want to dismember Russia. I am pretty sure will find it eventually.

    [‘US would like Russia to cease to exist as a country’ – Russia’s top security official ]

  81. RobinG says:

    That’s funny. I just tried these links, and they jump to “The Donmeh….” article be Wayne Madsen. Sorry.

    I don’t know what anybody thinks of Madsen. He typically goes in depth into some sensational story (the Lincoln, NE, pedophile ring for example). This Donmeh business is his typical convoluted expose. BTW, I don’t go looking for this stuff, somebody sent it to me.

  82. Avery says:

    {……have also caused billions of lost sales to EU countries.}

    [German Business Sharply Protests EU Sanctions Against Russia]

    “After suffering a loss of 6.5 billion euros in 2014, German exports to Russia will be expected to decline another 8.5 billion euros in 2015. Even considering the trade with Ukraine and other countries in the region, we will continue to see massive losses.”

  83. Art says:

    “give us Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad’s head on a platter – and we’ll call off the dogs of war in Ukraine”

    The undiplomatic terms put out by the Zionist fascist foreign policy of the US government, “Dear Russia – we will stop the Ukrainian fascists from killing ethic Russians – if you will let us kill Syrian ethnic minorities.” (Oh yes Russia, not to fear – Mufti Netanyahu approves this.)

    Such a deal.

  84. geokat62 says:

    Thanks for your analysis, Avery. All I can say is, I hope you’re right.

    Regarding the following comment:

    Putin is a Russian patriot.
    He is not a drunkard like Yeltsin.

    have you ever viewed the documentary, The Rise and Fall of the Russian Oligarchs? A must see:

    • Replies: @Avery
  85. tbraton says:

    In my prior post, I pointed out the recent creation dates for some new posters who had been challenged by poster 5371 that ranged from December 11 to December 16, 2015. That caused me to wonder what happened around that time to explain the sudden appearance of weevils on The Saker’s column. Then I discovered that The Saker’s previous column dealing with Week 10 had been published on December 12. Regnum Nostrum’s first post on appeared on December 13 in response to The Saker’s Week 10 column, for example. Another interesting thing I discovered was that, of the 143 messages posted thus far in response to Week 10, not a single one came from the Wizard of Ooze. At least not under his own name.

    In contrast, The Saker’s most recent column dealing with Week 11 was published on December 19. After I posted message #29 above pointing out the unusual similarities among the various new posters, who appeared, as if by magic, to post message #36 but the Wizard of Ooze himself. Then Wizard of Ooze came awake like Rip Van Winkle and posted a series of 9 messages over the next two days (#54, 58, 67-69, 75-78 and 80). To put that in context, Wizard of Ooze posted nothing in response to Saker’s Week 10 but in response to Week 11 posted a total of 10 messages from #36 through #87 or 10 out of the last 52 messages or close to 20% . Whew! That’s a lot.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  86. Kiza says:

    The apparently schizophrenic German government behaves like this because the whole of Germany is divided into two powerful camps: a Germany first camp and a US/NATO first camp. Outside, we observe a tug-of-war between the two camps. In the long term, we should bet on the Germany-first camp winning.

    • Replies: @utu
  87. annamaria says:

    The clarity of projection re bribe: no morals and no intelligence, just a firm belief that everything can be bought and sold.

  88. annamaria says:

    “Whatever EU, US, Neocons promise Russia is a lie: they will never honor their promises. Ever.”
    On point.

  89. @utu

    VVP doesn’t want to conquer the Zempire, just to protect his country from it. And clearly Syria is important, otherwise they would not have gone to all that trouble there, and would have just let it go like Libya. I also don’t think either Russia or China would be that foolish to think they can abandon each other and make separate deals with the Zempire. I mean big stuff regarding betrayal and survival, not minor deals.

    I also think Russia has just the right set of figures to play this game of chess, and what’s more important – the master who can play it. I wouldn’t rely only on Saker’s analysis, but go and read news and analysis on Russian sites too, like Russia Today, Strategic Culture Foundation, Sputnik News, etc. Even the reaction of trolls is interesting, the way they rush to slander or damage control tells a lot about the importance of some news.

  90. annamaria says:

    “Why do they hate us? … They hate our freedoms” (Prez Bush the lesser)

    From the comment section on Saker:

    “In Syria under Assad, we had free education & healthcare system for 40 years, something Democrats have been trying to do in US for 300 yrs
    In Libya under Ghaddifi, we had free education & healthcare system for 40 years, something Democrats have been trying to do in US for 300 yrs
    In Iraq under Saddam, we had free education & healthcare system for 40 years, something Democrats have been trying to do in US for 300 yrs”


  91. utu says:

    You might be right. The first camp perhaps subscribes to Bismarck’s dictum: “The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia.” Germany did not follow it and got itself into the WWI and after that all was downhill.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Thirdeye
  92. Kiza says:

    I never found true nationalists a problem, because those who fight for their own nation tend to respect other people’s nations as well. They are better than imperialists and globalists, who imagine that they have the right to rule everyone. Germany has a better balance between two points of view than the US, where most of the ruling elite are corrupt imperialists.

    Therefore, we really want the German nationalists who will respect other Europeans and who will run Germany according to its economic interests, instead of engaging in military adventures either with US/NATO or on their own.

  93. utu says:

    Fantastic theory of Seymour Hersh

    It seems far fetched but it may account for schizophrenic behavior of the US with respect to Syria and it may explain boldness of Putin moves and strange acquiescence of Israel. Most importantly it gives us hope that there are patriotic and sensible forces in US military opposing irresponsible and criminal adventurism of neocons and opportunism of Obama.

    Personally, I like v. much but I am afraid it it a wishful thinking on the part of Hersh shared by many people with similar sentiments, including me.

    Most importantly this theory explains the boldness of Putin’s moves and Netanyahu acquiescence. So I expect the theory will be attacked by neocons in the US and pro Putin yahoos and cowboys. I am really curious how Saker will respond, if at all, to it.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  94. utu says:

    Putin’s desire to prevent Assad from suffering the same fate as Gaddafi.

    Putin had watched a video of Gaddafi’s savage death three times, a video that shows him being sodomised with a bayonet. The JCS adviser also told me of a US intelligence assessment which concluded that Putin had been appalled by Gaddafi’s fate: ‘Putin blamed himself for letting Gaddafi go, for not playing a strong role behind the scenes’ at the UN when the Western coalition was lobbying to be allowed to undertake the airstrikes that destroyed the regime. ‘Putin believed that unless he got engaged Bashar would suffer the same fate – mutilated – and he’d see the destruction of his allies in Syria.’

    From Seymour Hersh article:

    • Replies: @Kiza
  95. utu says:

    Pessimistic ending of Seymour Hersh article

    “The military’s indirect pathway to Assad disappeared with Dempsey’s retirement in September. His replacement as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Joseph Dunford, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee in July, two months before assuming office. ‘If you want to talk about a nation that could pose an existential threat to the United States, I’d have to point to Russia,’ Dunford said. ‘If you look at their behaviour, it’s nothing short of alarming.’ In October, as chairman, Dunford dismissed the Russian bombing efforts in Syria, telling the same committee that Russia ‘is not fighting’ IS. He added that America must ‘work with Turkish partners to secure the northern border of Syria’ and ‘do all we can to enable vetted Syrian opposition forces’ – i.e. the ‘moderates’ – to fight the extremists.”

    “Obama now has a more compliant Pentagon. There will be no more indirect challenges from the military leadership to his policy of disdain for Assad and support for Erdoğan. ”

  96. Kiza says:

    …at the UN when the Western coalition was lobbying to be allowed to undertake the airstrikes that destroyed the regime…

    Strictly speaking, the Western regimes never lobbied at the UN “to be allowed to undertake the airstrikes that destroyed the regime”, they lobbied for a UN resolution to condemn both sides (Libyan Gov and the Western sponsored “moderate rebels”) to respect the rights of civilians. This resolution was later interpreted-away by Western regime lawyers as a right to bomb Libya and change Gaddafi government. Why is this nit-picking important? Because it shows that Russia and China should veto any UN resolution which even most remotely can be interpreted as a right to intervene.

    The West will attack its victim anyway, but at least do not make it easy for their media-legal establishment to claim legality of something so blatantly illegal.

    • Agree: geokat62
  97. RobinG says:

    Thanks, utu.

    I have yet to read the original Hersh story, but this guy at Vox, while trying to discredit Hersh, does a decent hack job on himself. For example, he claims the sarin false flag was never substantiated, but Turkey is now thoroughly implicated. And as for Hersh having only one source, there was only one Deep Throat. Even if the conspiracy is unproven, we know that Dempsey put the kibosh on Obama’s 2013 assault on Syria.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Kiza
    , @KA
  98. Thirdeye says:

    Far-right Russian nationalists are rooting for Putin to fail, just for different reasons than the anti-Russians elsewhere. There’s a fantasy among various Duginites and neo-Czarists that a great wave of ultra-nationalist “patriotism” will sweep through Russia, bring about Orthodox “popular monarchy,” brush aside the interests of non-Orthodox Russian citizens, and restore the glory of the Empire. They had hoped that the Donbass rebellion would be the catalyst. The Saker’s characterization of the “hurrah patriots” like unvote and his cronies here is on the money.

    • Replies: @5371
  99. utu says:

    Vox is a hack job. I cited it because at that time it was the only source I had. Since then I gave url for the original.

    At 2013 I was not following the stories too carefully so I missed quite a lot. I wonder if the dismissal of Chuck Hagel was related to Syria as well? Or on which side was Hagel?

    • Replies: @RobinG
  100. @tbraton

    By the way, what ever happened to ‘Sean’? He hasn’t posted on this thread yet.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  101. Thirdeye says:

    Germany did make one very good treaty with Russia, the 1922 Rapallo Treaty that pulled Germany back from the brink of mass starvation and offered hope for regained sovereignty. But the toadies were lured into abandoning it by the false promises of the Locarno Treaty of 1924 that laid the foundation for Weimar Germany’s collapse.

    Bismarck’s dictum applies to Poland as well, but the Poles seem too blinded by national delusions of grandeur and hateful stupidity to realize it.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  102. Kiza says:

    The original story was published in London Review of Books, the only Western magazine left willing to accept Hersh’s articles, because they are too informative for the small brains of the MSM consumers (could explode).

    On another matter, we have heard before that Iraq’s leadership may call Russia for help against ISIS. The latest news is that the Foreign Minister of the Libyan Unity Government has announced that Libya may also call Russia for help against ISIS. Thus, it appears that the Western “humanitarians” are not being asked anywhere any more to fight their own child ISIS, except in the Western Fairytale MSM.

    • Replies: @utu
  103. Avery says:

    Yes I have. It is very good.
    It is must see.

    And that is why Neocons hate Putin with a passion.
    He pissed on their parade.
    He stopped the looting of Russia by the all the domestic and foreign gangsters.
    Unfortunately, they had already liquidated and taken out of Russia \$100s billions of Russia’s national wealth that rightfully belonged to the long suffering people of Russia.

    And I am very happy the vile gangster thief Berezovsky died a broke and broken scum like he was.

  104. tbraton says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I think he signed up for the Lindsey Graham campaign. With today’s action, maybe we will be seeing more of him, unless he signs up for the George Pataki campaign.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  105. Thirdeye says:

    The battle for the M5 highway south of Aleppo has, in the past 48 hours, seen the elimination of the Al Qaeda salient centered on Khan Tuman and penetration by the SAA forces to the highway west of Khan Tuman. SAA is also at the highway at Zerba to the south. The Al Qaeda forces defending M5 are holding on by their toenails along a front ~30 km long south of Aleppo. M5 is important for the defense against Al Qaeda west of Aleppo and for opening operations in the direction of Idlib.

  106. utu says:

    ” the only Western magazine left willing to accept Hersh’s articles”

    Hersh used to be published by New Yorker and other main stream magazines. He wrote about My Lai, about Samson Option. I do not think that Hersh got radicalized that he has changed over years. No, the Zeitgeist has changed. We are living in reactionary times. Neoliberals decide on our economics and neoconservatives on our politics. It is very sad and dispiriting.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
  107. @Kiza

    What other things do you have to do? I guess your age is well within the usual working life span but you are unemplo yed. It could be a rich man’s eccentricity to fool around with actual or simulated passion on a website such as this but I guess you are not rich so why are you unemployed? Or is it “resting” between bit parts in TV crime series?

    And BTW it is an intelligence rather than language test that you have failed in associating me with Zionism or Zionists as those Commenters who care enough to attend and are smart would readily explain to you.

    • Replies: @krollchem
  108. KA says:

    A new article from Hersh –

    Obama now has a more compliant Pentagon. There will be no more indirect challenges from the military leadership to his policy of disdain for Assad and support for Erdoğan. Dempsey and his associates remain mystified by Obama’s continued public defence of Erdoğan, given the American intelligence community’s strong case against him – and the evidence that Obama, in private, accepts that case. ‘We know what you’re doing with the radicals in Syria,’ the president told Erdoğan’s intelligence chief at a tense meeting at the White House (as I reported in the LRB of 17 April 2014). The Joint Chiefs and the DIA were constantly telling Washington’s leadership of the jihadist threat in Syria, and of Turkey’s support for it. The message was never listened to. Why not?”

    • Replies: @annamaria
  109. RobinG says:


    The Hersh article is great, even though in the 1st paragraph he says,
    “….Obama is captive to Cold War thinking about Russia and China, and hasn’t adjusted his stance on Syria to the fact both countries share Washington’s anxiety about the spread of terrorism in and beyond Syria; like Washington, they believe that Islamic State must be stopped.”
    (Since up to now Obama has been facilitating ISIS and sowing chaos, not clear what Russia and China ‘share’ with Washington.)

    Towards the end, Hersh cites Christina Lin. I don’t know if this is the paper Hersh refers to, but looks interesting.

    With Assad’s Permission, China Can Send Troops to Combat Chinese Terror Group TIP in Syria

    This brief discusses the Turkish backed Chinese Uyghur terrorist group the Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP), which is part of the “Army of Conquest” coalition of numerous Syrian Islamist rebel factions fighting the al-Assad government. The author explains that as TIP continues to grow in power and size, recently accessing MIG fighter jets and advanced weaponry from a captured Syrian airbase and settling Uyghur populations in villages that expelled local Syrian residents, the group now poses a threat to what the Chinese government describes as its country’s core interests. She then explains that because TIP threatens these core interests China could intervene in Syria militarily and that if this intervention was requested by the Assad regime it would be permissible under international law.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  110. 5371 says:

    To be fair, there are constructive critics among them as well as the opposite. It’s among the unappeasable that false-flag enemies of Russia predominate.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  111. krollchem says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Yes, language usage does change with time, as you correctly note. Still there are schools of language (same with Latin), and some of us who are a little older use earlier comma usage (e.g. a comma before “and” when enumerating a list.

    All these language lessons detract from the learning experience from sharing information. Could you add more information to the discussion via links to articles that illuminate the discussion of the article being discussed? If you don’t like Mike Whitney that just refrain from commenting. I am sure you can find blogs that better suit your viewpoints.

    I would also agree with your comment that Erdogen ordered the downing of the SU-24, although the Prime Minister and the Air Force chief also wanted to take the credit. I would not discount the theory that Erdogen got the go-ahead from the Obama Administration (whatever that is). One of the last of Col. Boyd’s team, that developed the F-15 and the A-10, made a detailed analysis of the Turkey shoot.

    I would expect that Turkey is headed toward becoming a failed state after threatening Russia. I suggest you look at the natural gas pipelines to Turkey, the winter gas use and the lack of gas storage capacity. Also consider that El Nino will push the cold arctic aid toward Central Europe and the Middle East. Ukraine also lacks gas storage and gas flows from Russia meaning less Russian gas to Turkey via the Trans-balkan pipeline.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @tbraton
    , @RobinG
  112. Kiza says:

    I am not sure if Syria needs China to intervene, but since the West likes coalitions to make its, usually illegal, interventions also international, maybe it would look better to have a proper anti-ISIS coalition. It would replace the false Western one.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  113. annamaria says:

    “The message was never listened to. Why not?”

    The probable overriding interests: 1. Greater Israel. 2. A festering wound in the Middle East, which has a potential to sucking out Russian resources.

    • Replies: @Avery
  114. Avery says:


    You left out the first part of the question you quoted: “The Joint Chiefs and the DIA were constantly telling Washington’s leadership of the jihadist threat in Syria, and of Turkey’s support for it. The message was never listened to. Why not?”


    The real festering wound in Middle East is the genocidal, criminal state of Turkey.
    Israel has killed or murdered maybe 25K-30K Palestinians since its founding.
    Turks have murdered millions of Christians and Muslims (Arabs, Kurds,…) since they invaded Asia Minor and Middle East.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  115. @Thirdeye

    Maybe it’s not exactly a treaty, but don’t forget about the Dreikaiserbund – the short-lived alliance between Russia, Germany & Austria. Bismarck knew that allowing Russia to fall into an alliance with France and/or Britain would encircle Germany.

    • Replies: @5371
  116. Avery says:

    genocidal Uyguroğlar Turks have declared open season on Kurd civilians:

    [HRW: Over 100 civilians killed in southeastern Turkey since July]

  117. @tbraton

    Lindsay Graham – ha, ha! Good one, t.

  118. tbraton says:

    “One of the last of Col. Boyd’s team, that developed the F-15 and the A-10, made a detailed analysis of the Turkey shoot. ”

    krollchem, if it’s not too much trouble, could you post a link to that analysis?

    BTW, it appears that both you and the Wizard of Ooze are neglecting reports that the U.S. had an AWACS plane that departed from Greece and the Saudis had an AWACS plane depart from one of their bases about the same time, both heading toward Syria around the time of the shoot down.
    They obviously could have provided exact radar positioning of the Russian Su-24 to the Turkish F-16, which was flying at a low altitude to avoid detection by Russian radar and not having to deploy its own radar (which would have alerted the Russian plane). Coupling that fact with the fact that the U.S. provided the Russian flight info to the Turks, which allowed the Turks to position their F-16s in the general area of the Russian flight path, seems to conclusively indicate that not only did the U.S. have advance knowledge of the shoot down but was a planner of the shoot down.

    BTW your advice to Wizard of Ooze to avoid language seminars on these blogs is sound. Furthermore, it appears that Wizard of Ooze’s proclaimed expertise in the area of English punctuation and grammar is greatly exaggerated and often wrong.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @krollchem
    , @tbraton
    , @Kiza
    , @tbraton
  119. annamaria says:

    It is doubtful that the US care much about Turkey. Turkey certainly has been used in the geopolitical games but she will not be allowed to do what she really wants to do but will be guided to make steps in compliance with the wishes of the Empire of Federal Reserve.

  120. RobinG says:

    Hey Krol,

    The Olde Wizzer’s only purpose here is protecting Israel and trying to make himself look good at others’ expense. I’m just as happy if he keeps his sharing to himself, since what he likes is asserting Jewish superiority via HBD. Consider ignoring.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  121. RobinG says:

    Right. I just posted that link b/c there was prior chatter about whether China had, would, or should involve in Syria… case the China watchers would find interesting.

  122. 5371 says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    The Franco-Russian alliance only became a problem once France surrendered to Britain in the colonial competition and concluded the entente cordiale. The possibility of France and Russia going to war together against Germany had actually been more pressing before the alliance was made than after. As long as the Franco-British antagonism remained, the Franco-Russian alliance helped keep the peace and did not spoil Russo-German relations.

    • Replies: @Sean
  123. krollchem says:


    Here is the link you requested.

    The author, Pierre Sprey was one of about six acolytes of Col . Boyd who developed the F16 over the objections of the Air Force generals. Sprey is best know for his efforts in creating the A10. See the book titled Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War

    my favorite quote from col. Boyd “One day you will take a fork in the road, and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go. If you go one way, you can be somebody. You will have to make your compromises and … turn your back on your friends, but you will be a member of the club, and you will get promoted and get good assignments. Or you can go the other way, and you can do something, something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. … You may not get promoted, and you may not get good assignments, and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors, but you won’t have to compromise yourself. … In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you have to make a decision: to be or to do.”

    –Col. John Boyd

    Thanks for the AWACS link!

    • Replies: @tbraton
  124. Sean says:

    Read The Tragedy of Great Power Politics by John Mearsheimer. The 1905 Revolution in Russia crippled Russia as a military force for several years and made Germany a potential hegemon. The 1905 removal of Russia as a counterweight to Germany was what was what made Britain decide it needed a crash program of military preparations and expansion to balance the sudden relative power increase of Germany.,_1st_Baronet

    For geographical reasons that should be obvious, Germany was a natural enemy of Russia and France, which were as a result natural allies. Germany threw away a golden opportunity by not attacking France in 1905, when Russia would have been to crushed and Britain still lacked a large enough army to meaningfully intervene.

    There is one similarity between Russia in Syria and the Americans in Afghanistan and that is they are both foreigners trying to justify a intervention in support of a puppet (who died and left Assad king of Syria?). Just as southern Afghanistan is being inexorably retaken by the people who live there, Syria will wear down all the foreign forces.

    • Replies: @5371
  125. 5371 says:

    You don’t know any more about hundred-year-old history than you do about the present day. Can’t say I’m surprised.

    • Replies: @Sean
  126. tbraton says:

    Thanks for the link, krollchem.

    BTW I can see why you admire Col. Boyd. Unfortunately, the likes of him are in apparent short supply these days in America.

  127. Kiza says:

    Well, it appears that the truth is slowly coming out, the truth which the regime always calls “a conspiracy theory” to discredit. As with MH17, I was writing from day zero that Cui Bono points decidedly against the conspiracy theory promulgated by the government and media. Just like MH17, there was a significant MSM preparation of the event:
    1) with MH17, for several weeks before, the Western MSM gave front-page prominence to every shoot-down of Ukrainian attack jet, I kept wondering why were they promoting such failure of their coup in Ukraine,
    2) with SU-24, it was exactly the same, the Russian “regular” breaches of the Turkish airspace were reported again most prominently; I believe there were two minimal breaches and the Russians apologized on both occasions, even by Putin himself.
    Thus, it was easy to say: “the rebels thought a civilian airliner was a Ukrainian military jet” and “the Turks got tired of the breaches of their airspace by Russia and this time they shot back”.

    This is how the Ziocons operate, by controlling Western governments, MSM and militaries. And their success is in numbers, they do not care about you and I knowing what really happened when they control reality of the masses via MSM. This is perception management means. I know that I am stating the obvious.

    Therefore, the MH17 and SU24 shoot-downs appear to have both been organized at the highest level of the Ziocon gang, judging by the event preparation through MSM.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @tbraton
  128. tbraton says:

    krollchem, the link you provided happened to contain a link to the article I sent you, with the following insight provided in the introduction by Jim Dean, the managing editor of Veterans Today:

    “We have verified with our VT experts that Turkish ground radar trying set something like this up would be hit or miss.”

    This was in reference to the two AWACS I alluded to earlier. Without the help of the AWACS, Dean’s conclusion is that the Turks couldn’t have pulled off this risky stunt, in other words.

    Jim Dean concluded his introduction with these disturbing paragraphs:

    “NATO’s procedures for such an encounter involve escorting a wayward plane back over the border, not shooting it down if no declared hostilities were in motion. That was supposed to be the “deconfliction” deal that was made with Russsia.

    It appears Obama and NATO decided to bluff their way through it. So Putin has countered with with releasing that he not only has more information on Erdogan’s gang looting Syrian oil and other assets, but that the US coalition gang has also known about it all along. The Pentagon thinks we are stupid enough to believe their tall tale of not bombing the tanker truck because they were “civilian targets”. You just can’t make this stuff up!

    I was surprised to see NATO stick its neck out like that, but now we see that NATO command would have been in the loop on the bushwhack plans, and the usual procedure is to do whatever is necessary to cover up a mission gone bad. So what is the bottom line here?

    If the US and the Saudi’s helped triangulate this attack, then it was an overt act of war, which included NATO as an accessory, and a violation of a number of international laws, not to mention the UN charter. All countries with satellite coverage of the battlefield know exactly what happened.
    [Bold in original.]

    A Congressional investigation needs to be initiated right away, if for nothing else to put a stop to anymore such provocations. That investigation should include looking into other Western-coalition terrorist operations to further its aims in Syria. This would include the Israeli/NATO air exercise going on in the Negev desert within missile range of the Russian tourist plane that was taken down in the Sinai. Color me suspicious… Jim W. Dean ]”

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Thirdeye
  129. tbraton says:

    Very good observations about the media setups before each incident, kiza. I didn’t pick that up. Our MSM are a joke. The things we are finding in non-MSM publications like Veterans Today and even on the blogs and columns of should be the meat and potatoes of the MSM. But they are not. As you observed the other day about the video of the attractive Armenian reporter asking tough questions of Adm. Kirby with the blonde reporter turning around in scorn, that gesture tells you all you need to know about American MSM.

  130. @RobinG

    While it is clearly time ill spent when you are reading my comment it is a shame that you do so and misunderstand so badly that you think I have any purpose to protect Israel or to assert Jewish superiority “via Hbd” or at all. Nonetheless this is a convenient place to ask those who think they can to make a case why I might find Mike Whitney’s or The Saker’s columns worth reading for reliable information not generally available, for cogent argument – joining of the dots convincingly perhaps – supported by credible evidence, or his depth of experience or whatever.

    It struck me while reading a Stratfor piece, for which I pay, as I do also for the FT and many other papers and journals that one of the questions to ask about people I don’t know (as I do Steve Sailer, John Derbyshire and some other regulars) how they get paid for what they do assuming they are not just gentlemen of independent means doing the world a favour.

  131. @tbraton

    It’s impossible to rule any stupidity out under the auspices of a government which includes the employers of Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden in the way they were. But I see no need for any US involvement in the planning of Turkey’s downing the Russian bomber when Erdogan ordering it (using information provided by Russia to the US) is so easily explicable – even if also foolish and reckless.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  132. Thirdeye says:

    I think it’s more in character for the trolls to conflate Putin with the ultranationalist Russian “patriots” than to claim that he is a traitor over the Donbas. After all, if Putin really were that pusillanimous he would be the west’s guy (as the “hurrah patriots” try to claim). If we’re going to claim that there’s some false flag psywar going on, it would be equally logical to claim that they’re from Putin’s camp, making him look better to western hegemons by comparison with the ultranationalist alternative. But I don’t think they are. I think unvote et al.’s “hurrah patriot” rants are genuine.

  133. Thirdeye says:

    As the article points out, notification of Russian and NATO forces of each other’s operational plans is routine. That makes the hypothetical US AWACS role redundant. It is more likely that Turkey misused information routinely disseminated by Russia to set up the ambush, acting on their own.

    One question that those promoting a US-Turkish conspiracy can’t answer is what US interest would be served by the downing of the Su-24. None that I can think of. As a result, Syrian airspace is defended by frontline fighters and S-400 missile batteries. NATO flies over Syria at the pleasure of Russia. It’s put a tripwire in place for downing Turkish aircraft. It’s become one more factor forcing the US to distance itself from Turkey, NATO or no NATO.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Kiza
    , @tbraton
  134. geokat62 says:

    One question that those promoting a US-Turkish conspiracy can’t answer is what US interest would be served by the downing of the Su-24.

    As Mearsheimer and Walt demonstrated, when it comes to the ME, it is difficult to see how anything that occurs there is consistent with US interests. That said, perhaps Phil Giraldi’s analysis on Turkey may shed some light on recent events:

    I could probably talk about Turkey for about 2 hours, but I won’t. I would just make a general comment that what has happened in Turkey is very relevant to what we’ve been talking about here, today. Erdogan has very skillfully and sometimes clumsily fear-mongered on a number of levels and on a number of issues to the Turkish people. And the fear-mongering has basically enabled him to aggrandize power in both legal and illegal ways in Turkey… and now we have basically a head of state who is an autocrat who essentially is not limited by any rules and feels himself free to do whatever he wants. So, that’s my take on Erdogan… some people might disagree. In terms of the shoot-down, I would have to disagree with Julian to a certain extent. Shooting down a plane is an act of war, particularly in this case where the plane was not actually threatening Turkey in any genuine way… and the disturbing element for me was that this was not a decision that was made by a colonel or a general on the border defending Turkey’s airspace. This was a decision made at the highest levels of the Turkish government… and that means that Erdogan was basically provoking and setting up an act-of-war type situation with the Russians with two objectives: one objective being to scuttle any plans for a grand alliance against ISIS… he does not want that for a number of reasons. And the second reason would be to try to pull NATO in, in an attempt to support his view of Assad, his view of ISIS, and most particularly, his view of the Kurds. The Kurds are central to Turkish thinking, to strategic thinking. The Kurds are the enemy. ISIS is not the enemy. Assad is only the enemy because in a sense they see him as a surrogate for the Kurds. So that is my analysis and I think that Erdogan created a global crisis by shooting down this airplane. It could have escalated. It didn’t, thank God. And I think the man is reckless and this was a manifestation of his recklessness.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  135. tbraton says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “It’s impossible to rule any stupidity out under the auspices of a government which includes the employers of Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden in the way they were. But I see no need for any US involvement in the planning of Turkey’s downing the Russian bomber when Erdogan ordering it (using information provided by Russia to the US) is so easily explicable – even if also foolish and reckless.”

    Well, it is clear that the government does not have a monopoly of stupidity, Wizard of Ooze. You completely missed the point of my post to which you are responding. The entire thrust of my post had to do with the presence of two AWACS, one from the U.S. and the other from Saudi Arabia, converging on Syria about the time of the Su-24 shoot down, which provided their technical information to the Turkish F-16 so it would not have to use its own radar and thereby tip off the Russian bomber it was prepared to shoot down.

    I don’t hold myself out as an expert on aeronautical matters, and, apparently, neither does Jim Dean, the editor of Veterans Today. That’s why he decided to consult with people with a much deeper knowledge about these matters, and he clearly stated (as quoted by me in the prior post to which you are responding and presumably read) that “We have verified with our VT experts that Turkish ground radar trying set something like this up would be hit or miss.” I even added, for the benefit of people who didn’t understand what Mr. Dean was saying, “in other words,” that ” without the help of the AWACS, Dean’s conclusion is that the Turks couldn’t have pulled off this risky stunt.” Even after all that explanation and translation by me, you still didn’t get the point, Wizard of Ooze. I am left speechless by your display of incomprehension.

    Instead of trying to master the basic facts, you choose instead to speculate about the U.S. government’s “need” to be involved in the planning for the shoot down of the Russian bomber. In light of Jim Dean’s conclusion that it was unlikely that the Turks could have pulled off the stunt without help from the U.S., I find your suggestion to be totally preposterous. I find that to be a display of your arrogance and pretense to know more than you think you know.

    BTW I know you fancy yourself as an English grammar expert of sorts, but shouldn’t that first sentence of yours above (“It’s impossible to rule any stupidity out under the auspices of a government. . . .”) really be written “It’s impossible to rule out any stupidity under the auspices of a government. . . .” I don’t know how it sounds in Australia, but here in the U.S. the insertion of “any stupidity” between “rule” and “out” sounds rather awkward.

  136. Kiza says:

    …notification of Russian and NATO forces of each other’s operational plans is routine. That makes the hypothetical US AWACS role redundant.

    This is very similar to the story of the dummies on MH7 – a drunken Russian soldier leaned on the launch button and a civilian airliner fell out of the sky. If only it were so easy to shoot-down planes, especially the small and fast moving military ones. According to you, the expert, a flight-plan should be enough (LOL), no need for AWACS radar and navigation.

    I have been waiting for some troll to come here and repeat that Russia breached the Turkish airspace to be shot down, just to bring in S400. I wrote about this more than a week ago and other comments suggest the Hasbara troll Sean would be the fist to suggest “the theory” here, but you took the honor. Maybe you are Sean’s sock puppet.

    And you cannot see any reason for the shoot-down except the self-defense of Turkish territory? There are at least 10 good reasons. Turkey to revenge Russia’s bombing of Erdogan’s oil smuggling op, for bombing the Turkmen terrorists; US to damage \$32B in annual trade between Turkey and Russia and thus increase sanctions on Russia, to sabotage the Turkish-Stream pipeline into Europe, to get Russia to support the Kurds instead of US and UK doing the same etc etc.

    You really have no idea what you are trolling about, you are just repeating the rubbish from your Trolling Central. But I remember challenging you about this before. I will not read your rubbish any more, until you change your nick again and so on.

    • Agree: tbraton
    • Replies: @utu
    , @RobinG
    , @tbraton
  137. utu says:

    Another reason/benefit of Su-24 shootdown

    Shooting down of Su-24 came when France was getting too cozy with Russia on the wake of Paris 11/13. Russia’s actions in Syria were getting legitimacy in media, particularly in France. After the incident, when Turkey called on NATO, all members of NATO were forced to close ranks and the budding anti-ISIS alliance with Russia in lead was terminated. 11/13 was meant to get France involved in Syria while Su-24 was meant to remind France its place. Russia was to remain isolated from any western power.

    Ron Unz commented here several days ago that it can be argued that Russia was the immediate beneficiary of 11/13.

  138. tbraton says:

    “As the article points out, notification of Russian and NATO forces of each other’s operational plans is routine. That makes the hypothetical US AWACS role redundant. It is more likely that Turkey misused information routinely disseminated by Russia to set up the ambush, acting on their own. ”

    I thought drew a lot of high IQ people. I thought I pointed out very clearly in my post that the reason why two AWACS were necessary was that, without such assistance, there was no guarantee that the Turks could have pulled off the stunt on their own. I am a little surprised that you couldn’t get the gist of my message. That makes two, since Wizard of Ooze also failed to grasp the clearly expressed message. In light of what I posted, I am astounded that you could conclude that the “hypothetical AWACS role” was “redundant. Based on what I posted, it appears that the two AWACS were essential for the “mission” to be carried out.

    You go on to state that “One question that those promoting a US-Turkish conspiracy can’t answer is what US interest would be served by the downing of the Su-24. None that I can think of.” I am shaking my head in wonderment that you can write such a stupid sentence. Russia’s entry into the Syrian conflict caught the U.S. and it allies, who were determined to bring Assad down, completely off guard. The U.S. is clearly unhappy with Russia’s legal entry into Syria at the request of the legitimate government of Syria, and there are people in the Obama Administration (does the name Victoria Nuland ring a bell?) who are clearly displeased by this turn of events. They thought shooting down a Russian plane would cause Putin to flee Syria with his tail between his legs, but the man called Washington’s bluff, and now, it appears, that it is the U.S. which seems to be withdrawing with its tail between its legs.

    In answer to your question “what U.S. interest would be served” by the downing of the Russian plane, I ask you what U.S. interest was served by continuing NATO after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, what U.S. interest was served by extending NATO to Poland and other countries bordering Russia, what U.S. interest was served by extending invitations to join NATO to Georgia and Ukraine, what U.S. interest is served by arming and training Ukrainian soldiers? I have concluded that the simple answer to each question is “none,” but that hasn’t stopped the U.S. from doing each act described.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  139. RobinG says:

    Regarding S400, others here have asserted that Russia now has control of all Syrian airspace. Either that is not true (maybe S400 isn’t deployed everywhere, or Israelis managed to penetrate it), or else Putin did make some agreement with Bibi. Can the S400 shoot down air to surface missiles? (That’s what they used for Kuntar’s assassination, right?)
    “Yesterday, Israel murdered Samir Kuntar, a Hezbollah militant involved with a terror attack that killed three Israeli civilians in 1979” [Kuntar was killed near Damascus.]

    • Replies: @Kiza
  140. tbraton says:

    Kiza, you raised the possibility that Thirdeye is just a troll. I was struck by the fact that both Wizard of Ooze and Thirdeye both responded to my post about the two AWACS and raised the same point. I responded to each of them separately. But then I noticed this similarity between their posts responding to me:

    Wizard of Ooze: “But I see no need for any US involvement in the planning of Turkey’s downing the Russian bomber when Erdogan ordering it (using information provided by Russia to the US) is so easily explicable ”

    Thirdeye: “One question that those promoting a US-Turkish conspiracy can’t answer is what US interest would be served by the downing of the Su-24. None that I can think of.”

    So it is not simply the case that Wizard of Ooze and Thirdeye were the only posters to respond to my post about the AWACS, they each expressed puzzlement over what I thought was a pretty clearly expressed message, and they each raised as the central issue what benefit the U.S. gained from the downing of the Russian plane, which should be more than obvious to an ordinary reader. Just food for thought.

    BTW my suspicious nature caught this in Thirdeye’s post: ” I think unvote et al.’s “hurrah patriot” rants are genuine.” unvote is the poster that annamarina suspects is not the Russian he claims to be and whose English seems too fluid and fluent to me (and also geokat62) to be that of a Russian. Hmmm. One troll vouching for another possible troll.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  141. Kiza says:

    I am not an expert on all matters of military aviation, but I did spend some time on surveillance radar, anti-aircraft radar and radar jammer. But let me try to answer your query the best I can.

    Regarding S400, others here have asserted that Russia now has control of all Syrian airspace. Either that is not true (maybe S400 isn’t deployed everywhere, or Israelis managed to penetrate it), or else Putin did make some agreement with Bibi.

    For the particular situation that you refer to (Samir Kuntar murdered), it is the last one. Putin just does not want to pick up a fight with the Israelis, unless pushed to the wall.

    Can the S400 shoot down air to surface missiles?

    Definitely no, but the planes shooting down those missiles, yes. See above why Israel can still bomb and kill SAA, Hezbollah, and Iranian troops in Syria.

    Israel is likely to be able to seriously diminish the operational usefulness of the older S300, but is highly unlikely to do much better than reduce the range of S400 by, maybe, up to 20%. Considering how big the operational range of this system is, this is almost negligible. Further, S400 appears to utilize highly flexible algorithms based in software, which are easy to change in case they get penetrated. Therefore, S400 is much harder to jam then other systems. But, basing S400 at the low-lying Hmeimim airport would make the system highly safe from destruction/capture by the enemy, but it also severely limits its performance against the low-flying targets, especially in the mountainous Northern Syria. Based on what I have read about SU24 shoot-down, I am fairly convinced that S400 would not have made any difference, because of the way this action was implemented by NATO and the Saudis. SU24 would have been saved only by a Russian AWACS with a look-down radar, which could have seen any low-flying Turkish plane or helicopter, or by a fighter jet escort, which have a similar look-down radar. The two Turkish jets (if they were really Turkish) were flying low enough not to be seen from Hmeimim, with their radars and radios off, getting targeting data straight from AWACS, as tbraton’s link suggested: even directly fed into the F16 on-board computer. So no radio-chatter, just encrypted data. The Turkish ground radars would have suffered from the same problem of high-horizon as the Russian ones – simply, only an AWACS could have handled a shoot-down in the mountainous border region, this is certain. The fact that there were two AWACS at the time suggests that NATO takes no chances.

    I wrote before that I believe Putin threw in the Russian troops into Syria to get Israel to compromise, which has not given much result yet. Just keep in mind that Israel would have never gotten its hands dirty, by shooting down a Russian bomber, when it has all these keen puppets ready to do its bidding, plus even share some of Israel’s interests: US, Turkey, Saudis, Qataris etc.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  142. Kiza says:

    Let us not worry about the trolls too much, they are like background noise on every comments board (not that I do not agree with your analysis of them). I sometimes bash back the Ooze, so that he does not get too cocky. Considering that he claims to be my compatriot, it is a kind of a duty of mine to keep him reasonably, not excessively, trollish. There are much better skilled trolls than the Ooze of Oz, who keeps complaining about our English (not yours) and regurgitating MSM drool to us.

  143. Kiza says:

    This was a highly professionally executed hit on the Russian force in Syria, almost admirable.

    But its main aim is the most interesting, it is exactly the same aim (which I did not mention as a reason before) as the Metrojet shoot-down:
    – to diminish Putin and the Russian leadership and reduce people’s confidence in them,
    – to increase the cost of Syria to the Russians by Russians dying far away from home (not in defense of the Russian border).
    This is why some of the details of the action are coming out now through indirect channels, e.g. Pierre Spray statements: Therefore, the aim was not to send Putin back home from Syria with his tail between his legs, then to hurt Russian confidence.

    I believe that the same team thought up both Metrojet and SU24, only with a different method of execution. And this team is not sleeping now, so there may be more where this came from. The ZATO team will continue on, after the celebrations and back-patting. The Russians better make sure that they covered all their weak spots.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  144. @tbraton

    You misconceive the amount of interest others have in something that gets you worked up. Maybe if I learn more reliably evidenced facts I will, as my references to Manning and Snowden might have alerted even someone with a tin ear, be willing to believe in another US botched or foolish affair. There have been so many that, although it is bad news for allies, I can’t really get terribly excited by your revelations.

    As it happens I read enough to see that it didn’t justify your confidence. You rely on Veterans Today which I have no reason to regard as reliable or authoritative without much supporting material. But even if it is to be relied on it is you who seemed to have missed something vital to the stance you are now taking. All it says is that the Turks without help would have run a “hit or miss” operation. The only way that refutes a supposition that it wasn’t a purely Turkish operation is if you can plausibly argue that Erdogan wouldn’t have tried the operation unless there was no hit or miss about it. On one reasonable hypothesis he wouldn’t have cared whether the plane was actually shot down or merely shot at unmistakably. None of that means that the Turks mightn’t have asked for information which was provided to them by a serviceman at a level where it didn’t occur to him to consider whether an addition to the information routinely provided about Russian flights was a significant development which should have raised red flags.

    Of course it is possible to think of reasons why some loose canons – though surely not Obama despite the games with drones that he sanctions – thought it a good idea to test or provoke Russia. But, if you are trying to say that there has to be such US involvement I remain unpersuaded.

  145. @tbraton

    Anyone who thinks the brilliant wit involved in “Wizard of Ooze” is worth repeating, and indeed repeating and repeating, is likely I suppose to make laborious work of noticing the kind of literal** that is especially easy to miss when using one finger typing on a small screen.

    **I suspect that you are not familiar with the word “literal” used as a noun for the sort of error that proof readers are expected to be able to pick up, but be assured: this time I haven’t inadvertently left out a word.

  146. tbraton says:

    krollchem, I went back and reread The Saker’s piece and discovered near the beginning, under the subheading “My hypothesis,” a link highlighted with the words “top western experts agree.” I did not click on that link when I first read The Saker’s piece, but I discovered that it connects you to an interview with Pierre Sprey. I apologize for my imposition on you. I should have done my homework before bothering you. I do appreciate your reference to Sprey’s story in your post. Otherwise I would have continued to be in the dark about an important piece of information. Unlike certain others who post here, I regard the comment section as a way to educate oneself and refine one’s thinking and share one’s thoughts with others. I guess the lesson is that it is important to always click on links in The Saker’s columns. You never know what you’ll find.

    • Replies: @krollchem
  147. @tbraton

    Again you make it very difficult to discuss your comments because whatever the IQ you implicitly suggest is adequate you have not been trained or educated in logic. Without the information from the AWACs “there was no guarantee etc.” Can’t you see the logical hole? As I pointed out earlier you need an additional premise to your argument such as “the ever calm and cautious Erdogan would never have countenanced an attack without certainty that it would succeed”!!

    As to your proposition that the US government thought or may have thought the shooting down of a plane would send the Russians scuttling home that is just so bizarre it defies belief that you would thus open yourself to derision.

    As to your comparisons with other US policies and actions which you say were not to the US advantage that is disputable in each case and it is also necessary to factor in what was thought to be a good reason for each and whether there were complicating factors such as actual treaty commitments to or compromise deals with allies. (And, by the way, the US might have had trouble unilaterally seeking to put an end to NATO).

    While it is a valid point, as far as it goes, to point out that a government doesn’t always know what is in the national interest or do it, it remains a valid question to ask what plausible motive the US would have had – just as in any run of the mill accusation of criminality.

    And, because you don’t seem to have grasped the structure of the argument you rather incontinentally deride, let me repeat that it is simply that there is nothing in proved or plausible motive or in operational facts reliably established to compel the conclusion that the US government was knowingly involved in the planning of the attack on the bomber.

    If you want certainty and belief that’s your problem.

  148. Sean says:

    McMeekin argues that Russia’s real aim all along was to use any and every opportunity finally to gain access to the Mediterranean by destroying the Ottoman Empire and thus winning control over the Bosporus. Russian military exercises and war games already envisaged the seizure of Constantinople, the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and the subsequent rolling-up of hostile Balkan powers from the north and east.

    Describing these and other events, notably the surrender of General Townshend’s Indian Army force in April 1916 after a nasty siege at Kut, in Iraq (Britain’s costliest defeat since Yorktown in terms of men captured), McMeekin dips into the archives on all sides and often pulls out something new. He reveals, for instance, the depth of Russian reluctance to intervene to help their ostensible British allies when the latter were pinioned at Gallipoli and Kut – in the case of Gallipoli with a material effect on the war. “Had the Russians delivered the troops they had promised”, he writes, “the Ottoman war might have been over by spring 1915.” […] Nowadays the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 (revealed by Trotsky to the Manchester Guardian) gets the blame for the arbitrary and unsustainable division of the Middle East. This isn’t quite accurate, as McMeekin points out; the original plan had included tsarist claims to Turkey and Kurdistan, […]

  149. krollchem says:

    I appreciate your interest in learning from the content at the Unz Review. Recently a plague of angry trolls have infested the discussion as well as a few people who miss their high school debate club.

    The Veterans Today article I linked to has a link to the original Spevy article in Harpers that goes into a lot more detail! Funny how Oz attacked the Veterans Today article without going to the original link. Too bad smearing sources is so common.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  150. tbraton says:

    “Funny how Oz attacked the Veterans Today article without going to the original link. Too bad smearing sources is so common.”

    I caught that as well. Such behavior is why I have rechristened (inappropriate word, I know) him Wizard of Ooze. If I am not mistaken, the Sprey interview which you forwarded to me was the same interview linked by The Saker, in the same way you can read the same Pat Buchanan piece on, The American Conservative, Taki’s Mag, and the newspaper in Pittsburg, each with a different headline of course.

  151. annamaria says:

    There was also a mighty reason to spoil the good working relationships between Russia and Turkey. As a result of the shoot down, Russia has lost an important ally and trade partner, which should has made the US State Department dizzy with joy. The current Dardanelles’ problems for Russians is just another worrisome aspect that the empire certainly enjoys. A system of international laws is effectively defunct.

    • Replies: @Avery
  152. Avery says:

    {Russia has lost an important ally and trade partner,..}


    You keep lying about Islamist genocidal Turks.
    Russia and nomadistan Turkey have never been allies.
    Trading partners: Yes.
    Business is business.
    Geostrategic interests are geostrategic interests.
    “Allies” ?: you, [annamarina] are an anti-Christian liar.

    Russia and the nomad, genocidal Turks have never been, quote, “allies”, and never will be.
    Turks are genocidal anti-Christian invadonomads.
    Turks are anti-Christian mass murderers.
    Genocidal mass murderers.
    IslamoFascist nomad Turks can never be allies of Orthodox Christians.

    You, [annamarina] are an Islamophile, Turkophile, anti-Christian liar.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  153. annamaria says:

    I appreciate your passion but not your insulting rudeness. This is a forum for intelligent discourse (not for spilling out the obscenities). Try to be respectful of others – at least, from a Christian perspective. By the way, it is not rational to be ethnocentric. “Whole genome sequencing of Turkish genomes reveals functional private alleles and impact of genetic interactions with Europe, Asia and Africa:”

    • Replies: @Avery
  154. Avery says:

    {This is a forum for intelligent discourse}

    Then don’t make things up to advance your agenda: Russia and Turkey have never been allies.
    Russia and Turkey are geopolitical rivals and enemies.
    What allies are you talking about ?
    Why are you making things up: to polish the criminal, genocidal image of Turkey.


    {By the way, it is not rational to be ethnocentric.}

    So it is rational for you to post lengthy comments about the plight of Palestinians and other victims in the Middle East, but it is not rational for me debunk falsehoods which paint a false picture of Turkic people and Turkey, who not only deny they committed Genocide against millions of Christians, but are an existential threat to my ethnos living in their homelands in Armenia and Artsakh? Struggle for survival is very rational. Me doing my part to help the survival of my ethnos is very rational. Suicide is irrational.

    You like links about Turks ?
    Here is one:
    [We have corrupt DNA]

    {Our genes must have gone through mutations while we were traveling on horseback from Central Asia to Anatolia. It’s a long ride. Something must have gone wrong along the way. I think we are mutant Turks. Like Ninja turtles. We are like a lab accident.
    First of all – sorry for the repetition – we carry the “killer DNA” in our souls. It may have been a remarkable, wonderful and praiseworthy feature to be able to kill, to kill as many people as possible in the battlefield once upon a time when everything depended on winning wars and conquering. When the whole system was based on occupation, physical power, a strong army; of course, killing meant winning.}

    {We have persistently reserved that killer gene for centuries. Even though we do not conquer and fight in the battlefield anymore, we have the mutant killer gene and its sub-gene that protects the murderer. We have special respect and a secret love for the murderer. }

    Read that again [annamarina]: “We have special respect and a secret love for the murderer. “
    A Turk wrote that.
    I am no geneticist, DNA expert, or an expert in anything.
    But I can observe facts and reach logical conclusions.

    btw: here is a genetic puzzle for you that will debunk your irrational belief in genome sequencing determining something or other.
    Two biological brothers.
    Same mother, same father.
    One turns out a murderer and the other, say, judge.
    Happens all the time.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Wizard of Oz
  155. tbraton says:

    The Wall Street Journal has an article in today’s edition re Turkey’s war against its own Kurds. (“Turkey’s Kurdish Cities Become War Zones: Neighborhoods transformed by Kurdish militants and Ankara’s stepped-up campaign to crush them”). The article states in its opening paragraphs:

    “Turkey’s stepped-up military campaign to crush Kurdish insurgents has reduced some urban neighborhoods in the southeast of the country to battle zones, raising fears the conflict could escalate and spread elsewhere in the country unless peace talks resume.

    Since the government last week declared what it called a “decisive” campaign to end five months of limited violence between Kurds and government security forces, young Kurdish militants in the cities of Diyarbakir, Cizre, Silopi and Nusaybin have been targeted by Turkish tanks, helicopters, artillery and snipers, according to local residents and news reports from the region.”

    This sounds like the same actions that we complained about when Assad of Syria was confronted with armed rebellion, resulting in our call for his removal from power. Does this latest action in Turkey mean that the U.S. will be calling for Erdogan to step down as President of Turkey and that we will be establishing “no fly zones” in eastern Turkey and providing arms to the Kurdish rebels fighting the Erdogan regime? Don’t I recall that the U.S. spoke out critically against the former head of Ukraine and urged him not to think of using force against the thugs seeking his overthrow?

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Wizard of Oz
  156. geokat62 says:

    This sounds like the same actions that we complained about when Assad of Syria…

    Or when Saddam was vilified for killing “his own people,” remember that? Do you think they will do the same to Erdogan? Somehow, I doubt it. There’s a different dynamic at play in Turkey… just ask Sibel Edmonds.

  157. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:


    So, maybe they were not evil after all.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  158. Kiza says:

    May I kindly ask you to soften up rhetoric a little. annamarina is one of the most reasonable commenters here at, with a harsh word for no-one. I would agree with you that Turkey and Russia were never friends or allies and for many good reasons, and they became commercial partners only recently. If anyone in Russia was trying to make Turkey an ally, this was as mistaken as trying to make Israel an ally. This kind of thinking may have been why the Russia jet got shot-down – because somebody believed that Turkey could be an ally. But to understand nuances of this relationship we need to look at all aspects, including those which annamarina mentions. Maybe Russia opened itself too much towards Turkey and had unrealistic expectations.

    Ultimately, the harsh rhetoric will only diminish the points you are trying to make. I could be blamed for this myself sometimes, so I am criticizing both you and I (not patronizing you). Please try to understand annamarina instead of blaming.

    • Replies: @Avery
  159. Kiza says:
    @The most deplorable one

    Note the elephant in the room, not explained – how did a Korean jumbo end up 500 km inside Russian territory and over the most sensitive of military installations, after crossing paths with a US spy plane of a similar size? Baiting? How could trained pilots make such a catastrophic mistake and at such a convenient time for US? Where was the ATC to warn them of the huge digression from the airline corridor?

    This reminds me so much of MH17 – the lives of civilians are totally instrumentalized. If we are not propaganda subjects, then we are propaganda material.

  160. Karl says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    >> As the economic situation in Russia continues to deteriorate we may soon see protests similar to those in Ukraine before the fall of Yanukovych.

    As Clerk-Maxwell taught us – the particle never cares about the complex interplay of individual background fields – the particle only feels the single composite vector pushing on ==it==.

    Likewise, in Afula, the only thing that matters is how many russians are going to show up with their great food, their horrid accents – and a modest pocketful of immigrants-grant-benefits.

    Never fear for Papa Karl. Papa Karl will begin stocking up on junior-miss sizes of ballet shoes and start hoarding linen velour, the better to make ballroom-dancing outfits for a new wave of middle-school Ivans and Veras down at dancekessem.

    The boys will grow up to show the Fakestinians what Kfir Brigade platoon-nikkim think about Arabic Nationalism; and the girls will grow up to count and change roubles at the Medical Tourism wing of Shemer Hospital in Haifa.

  161. Karl says:

    >> why a guy who has been predicted the imminent collapse of the U.S. for years decided to make Florida his home

    Lot of russkie BHA flowing into Crimea now – rents are sky high!

    That leaves California, and Florida.

    Florida’s got shall-issue weapons-carry, and StandYour Ground.

    Plus: a network of Hebrew-Immersion Bilingual Public Charter Primary Schools. Your kids WILL be able to get into Unit 8200 and graduate into a comfy job at Lockheed or Raytheon.

    Once you get over the NorthAmericanBarbarian willingness to present stale pita breads to naive ashkenazim at the hummus joints……. it’s not so bad.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  162. Karl says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    >> It might be good for your sanity if Ron were asked to certify

    It might be better if Ron made a few shekels^H^H^H^H^H^H^H dollars by SELLING the privilege of commenting at the site.

    The pinko websites do that, nowadays.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  163. tbraton says:

    Are you implying that The Saker is Jewish? Not that it matters, since his words speak for themselves, but it would shed new light on some of his positions. I thought he stated that he was Orthodox Christian.

    BTW you refer to “russkie BHA flowing into Crimea now.” Does BHA refer to British Homeopathic Association, Bush Heritage Australia or Butt-Head Astronomer?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Kiza
  164. @tbraton

    Your interesting post makes me wonder why the determined secularisers from Ataturk onward couldn’t do more to make secularisation widespread and permanent in their 75 years or so. Naive I suppose when one considers underground continuities in Russia and the persistence of anti Enlightenment thinking even in the US.

    Just how bad does a member of NATO who is more or less democratically elected have to be? The [British] Commonwealth occasionally expels or suspends members (Fiji an Uganda come to mind) but that I suppose highlights the difference it makes that Turkey is part of a military alliance.

  165. @Karl

    Great idea. He could outsource the moderation to Bangalore (or maybe a couple more time zones to maintain speed and efficiency) then, taking a leaf out of Google’s and Apple’s tax scripts he could treat the right to comment as intellectual property which could be owned in a low tax jurisduction like Ireland. But the bonus of being able to take in Ireland’s golf courses on twice yearly visits just doesn’t seem to me to be Ron’s thing.

  166. @Avery

    Good to know now a lot more about your starting point. No doubt pluses and minuses there for the credibility of your posts as reliable evidence of fact but helpful to readers.

  167. @tbraton

    Indeed, and I don’t think The Saker is even Orthodox Christian by the eccentric route of Israel Shamir… but Jewish, no way.

  168. @annamaria

    Indeed but that was never a good argument for “direct responsibility” or anything much but tut-tutting about children not being supervised after they’ve been allowed to handle knives…

  169. Penelope says:

    Is no one else troubled by how lightly tons of aircraft wreckage sit on the sands of the Sinai after falling from the sky? Even a heavy engine is photographed w/o so much as a dent uner it. what the impact craters of real plane crashes look like.

    MH17’s wreckage fell on farmland with the same result. As far as I can see all the heavy parts are very close to roads. This 2d one bothers me greatly.

  170. Kiza says:

    Had a laugh.

    Did you notice the Hasbara offensive here at Do you think that they finally discovered as exactly the kind of sight that they need to fight, being for the more intelligent free-thinking people than the MSM (which they fully control already anyway)? So far they have been focusing on Giraldi, but now they appear to be spreading onto anyone criticizing Zionism, such as The Saker. Maybe it is just my impression.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  171. Kiza says:

    Yeah, by calling the “Soviet-made BUK”, a “Russian-made BUK”. Propaganda for the dummies. Many parts of the BUK would have been manufactured in the Ukrainian Republic of USSR. Then, they could have, as easily, called it the “Ukrainian-made BUK”? I wonder why they did not.

  172. @Kiza

    No, Kiza. You are not the only one who has noticed. Israel is known to maintain a formidable army of trolls ready to go at a moment’s notice. Now they’ve discovered

  173. Seamus Padraig

    Uh, how bout you get a real name, you goof? What kind of gay ass name is Seamus? Your last name is stupid too, but get the first name fixed first.

    So far they have been focusing on Giraldi, but now they appear to be spreading onto anyone criticizing Zionism, such as The Saker. Maybe it is just my impression.

    It’s just your impression. The only reason I post here is because I know here my posts will get through, probably because the site is owned by a sympathetic Jewish guy. Honestly I would much rather troll intelligent Jew haters like the kind they have at Takimag and AConMag but they won’t let my posts through; so I have to entertain myself with you dumbasses.

    Really you guys should be thanking me that I even bother with JV’ers like yourselves.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  174. geokat62 says:
    @Greasy WIlliam

    On behalf of the other JV’ers, thank you for even bothering with us, Greasy.

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