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This has been an amazing week which saw the first clear sign of the collapse of the EU and Turkish President Erdogan presenting his excuses to Russia for the downing of a Russian SU-24 over Syria 7 month ago. While the latter event was largely eclipsed by the former, it might be the sign of something even more dramatic taking place: the collapse of Turkey.

Does that seem like hyperbole?

Let’s look again.

The Presidency of Erdogan has been nothing short of cataclysmic for Turkey which resulted in a perfect storm of crises, each of the very serious:

1) Crisis in Syria: the Turkish policy of support for Daesh to overthrow Assad has failed. Abjectly so. Not only is Assad still in power, but the latest bombing in Turkey seem to indicated that Daesh is turning against Turkey now (assuming the official explanations is true, which it might not be as we will discuss below). The entire Syria policy of Erdogan is now in shambles.

2) Crisis with the EU: the last thing the Brits did before Brexiting was to tell Turkey that it could join the EU in 3000 years. Other EU member states were not as direct, but everybody knows that this is true. Furthermore, the grand Erdogan-Merkel friendship and alliance has completely fizzled out.

3) Crisis with the Armenians: when the German Parliament recognized the genocide of the Armenians and, soon thereafter, so did the Pope, it was pretty darn clear that the western powers that be were sending Turkey a simple message: a raised middle finger. Love story over, screw you!

4) Crisis with the USA: US special forces have now been spotted in Iraq wearing Kurdish badges. While minor, this incident is telling and has greatly angered the Turks. Bottom line: the Empire needs the Kurds in Iraq and Syria and Turkey takes second place right now.

5) Crisis with Iran: by supporting Daesh, by trying to sabotage the “Islamic pipeline” and by trying to overthrow Assad, Turkey has completely alienated Tehran.

6) Crisis with the Kurds: by engaging in an even more brutal level of anti-Kurdish violence the Turks have basically re-ignited a full scale civil war and the Kurds are showing no signs of getting weaker. In fact, they are currently more powerful than ever, courtesy of the US invasion of Iraq.

7) Crisis with NATO: following the downing of the Russian SU-24 NATO clearly indicated to Erdogan that he was on his own and that NATO would not get involved in a Turkey-triggered war.

8) Crisis with Russia: the downing of the SU-24 did not result in the expected Russian military response, but resulted in 7 months of crippling economic sanctions by Russia and an enormous loss of prestige by Turkey. More about this later.

So, this can be all summed up by saying that Turkey under Erdogan has shown a truly Ukrainian-level of incompetence, arrogance and delusion.

It is in this, truly dramatic, context that Erdogan had to write his letter of apology.

The first thing which should be said about this is that Erdogan took a major political risk: after spending months chest-thumping and declaring uri et orbi that Turkey will never, ever, apologize if only because Turkey was in the right, this sudden “zag!” puts Erdogan is a very difficult position. Hence the initial rumors that the letter said that he was “sorry” but not “apologizing” or, second variant, that the apology was only to the family of the murdered Russian pilot, but not to Russia. This did not last too long and pretty soon the bewildered Turks gave up trying to give this apology a face-lift. It was exactly what everybody understood it to be: a real full and humiliating apology.

Next there was a statement of the Turkish foreign minister categorically denying that any compensation would be paid. That too lasted a couple of hours until it was admitted that not only would Turkey pay, but Turkey would pay whatever was demanded.

Finally, there is a very real possibility that the bombing of the airport in Ankara Istambul might be a very direct message sent to Erdogan: “if you try to appease the Russians we will unleash hell on you”. And while Daesh is a prime candidate for sending that kind of message, there are other possible candidates: the US, of course, and the Turkish deep-state. To make matters even more complicated, we should not discard any scenario as impossible, including the possibility that Erdogan himself, and his supporters, engaged in a false-flag event to justify 1) cooperation with Russia against terrorism and 2) turning against Daesh.

Right now, the official version (Daesh did it) makes sense to me, but I would not discount any other possibility.

What is certain is that the stakes in Turkey are now sky-high and that Erdogan is fighting for his future and, possibly, the future of Turkey as a state. His opening towards Russia and, at the same time, Israel is a clear sign of despair. If only because Russia is unlikely to offer much in terms of rewards for the following reasons:

First, the Russians are now deeply suspicious of Erdogan and consider him a loose cannon, possibly a lunatic, who cannot be trusted and who can make a zag after every zig.

Second, the letter was a first, necessary, step to reopen negotiations, but the negotiations themselves will be a long process. Foreign Ministers Lavrov and Cavusoglu will begin these negotiations this week, but the number of issues to be discussed in very long. Most importantly, the Russians will demand tangible and important steps from Turkey, especially in Syria and in regards to Turkey sponsored terrorism in Russia and the Ukraine. It is by no means clear to me that Erdogan will be willing to make such major concessions. Officially, I expect a lot of smiles and hopeful declarations, but behind closed door the Russians will be making many tough demands. It is not clear to me that Ergodan could yield to the Russian demands even if he wanted to.

Erdogan really appears to have deluded himself that he is some kind of major player and he is now discovering that he is not. What is even worse, he now probably realizes that he has many dangerous enemies and no friends at all.

Potentially, Russia could offer Turkey a lot, way more than just a return to better relations, tourists and a market for Turkish vegetables. But my feeling is that Erdogan is turning to Russia in despair and to improve his bargaining position towards all the others enemies he has made. The problem is that he Russians probably see that too and that they will be very cautious, even if they hide this caution behind all manners of nice diplomatic language.

I might be wrong here, but I think that the Russians want Erdogan out. In their minds they have already “Saakashvilized” him if only because Turkey is an extremely important country, strategically located and Russia cannot afford to have a delusional lunatic ruling it. Furthermore, the Turkish people have a major problem on their hands: a severe case of multiple personality disorder. They have to decide if they want to be secular Europeans, “Young Turk” neo-Fascist nationalists, Islamic radicals, Kemalist secularists? Do they want an impossible mono-ethnic Turkey or can they accept that others not only live there too, but also that these “others” lived in these lands long before the Turkic nomads invaded them? Right now, Turkey is anti-European, anti-Russian, anti-Armenian, anti-Kurdish, anti-Armenian, anti-Christian, anti-Arabic, anti-Persian, anti-Greek, etc. That makes Turkey a big powder keg which any spark could detonate. And the problem for Russia is that this powder keg is uncomfortably close and deeply involved in the Ukraine, Crimea, the Caucasus and Central Asia.

What this all means is that it is in Russia’s strategic interest to have a responsible and trustworthy partner to deal with. Sadly, I don’t see that as very likely because, just as in the case of the Ukraine and Israel, the problem with Turkey is that this an artificial, illegitimate and fundamentally unsustainable country.

Israel, the Ukraine and Turkey are all built on a rabidly nationalist/racist worldview which offers no hope to anybody that does not agree with this worldview. This is why, for the Turks, the Kurds are either “mountain Turks” or “terrorists” who deserve to be shot. It would be naïve to the extreme to think that the mindset which made the genocide of Armenians, along with many other minorities (Christian Assyrians, Syrians, Chaldeans and Greeks), has somehow disappeared especially if we keep in mind that a) the Turks still deny the reality of this genocide and b) that this genocide has never stopped, but only slowed down:

Genocide, besides the actual physical destruction of the members of the target group, aims also to erase all traces of the target group’s identity, through forced assimilation. In the Armenian case, it was mainly women and children who were forced to convert to Islam, adopting Turkish or Kurdish names and thus lost their Armenian identity over time. Another measure of the genocidal process is deleting all traces of the population who have been massacred or driven away by such deportations. This includes destruction of all buildings and monuments while renaming all the names of villages, towns, rivers, and other things that can attest to the presence of Armenians in the area. In 1914, the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople presented a list of Armenian sacred places that were under his supervision. The list contained 2,549 religious sites of which 200 were monasteries while 1,600 were churches. A survey in 1974 showed that only 916 Armenian churches could be identified within Turkey’s borders, half of which were almost completely destroyed and among the rest only ruins of 252 items remained. The authorities have also renamed almost all villages, towns, mountains, and rivers in Armenia and changed their historical Armenian name to Turkish ones. This policy continues even in our days when, for example, the Turkish Interior Ministry announced in 2005 that it would rename certain animal Latin names since they had “separatist tendencies”. Armeniana Ovis (sheep) would be renamed Ovis orientalis Anatolicus, while Capreolus Capreolus Armenus (deer) would be called Capreolus Capreolus capreolus. Even Vulpes Vulpes Kurdistanica (red fox) was to be renamed Vulpes Vulpes. The proposal was rejected by UNESCO, the UN agency in charge of these data, referring to the unfounded the Turkish reasons for the changes (source)

And then there is Cyprus, which the Turks still illegally occupy. Again, such levels of violence in and around artificial and illegitimate countries is something normal and not a temporary fluke (see: the Ukraine and Israel).

What this all means for Russia is that while the Kremlin will warmly welcome Erdogan’s latest “zag” and while efforts will be made to return to a more or less situation, the only possible long term goal for Russia is to support either the break-up or the federalization of Turkey into some kind of more or less civilized country. The good news for Russia is that she really need not make any special efforts towards that goal as the Turks, just like the Israelis and the Ukrainians, are doing a splendid job making sure that their political project never becomes viable. The best thing Russia can do at this point in time is to brace for the likely flare-up of violence in Turkey and try to protect herself, and her allies, from the inevitable fallout.

As for Turkey – the future looks very grim. The latest move to court Russia and Israel will not meaningfully improve the strategic situation for Turkey. At best, it will give the appearance of a pseudo-regional détente. But nothing else will change unless the Turkish state itself changes and that is something that the Turkish people do not seem to be willing to accept, at least not in the foreseeable future.

• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Brexit, Erdogan, Turkey 
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  1. forced assimilation and soft ethnic cleansing is generally the way most stable states are built. The more ‘diversity’ the more unworkable disagreements emerge among the ‘citizens.’ All those non Europeans in Europe are going to have to go back. Let’s hope we can achieve that peacefully.

    the whole point of nation states is states that are built around nations. Before them, Empires prevailed but there was little mixing among low cultures. Effective political entities no matter what their time period require homogenous communities.

    The kurds should carve out their own state where they can practice their marxist communitarianism to their hearts content, and the Turkeys should get a Turkey without a spoiler minority.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @anon
    , @Solemnity
    , @Macreau
  2. mikhas says:

    Couldn´t have said it better myself, or actually, i did, in Sputnik several times.

    According to latest survey, a stunning 80% of the Turks supports ISIS and so does obviously Erdogan, in his own ways and when it suits him. That makes their choice clear. So really, as i have always said, the best Russsia can do, beside cushioning the worst consequences for itself and it´s allies, is to reach for the popcorn and watch this violent, genocidal abomination fall apart. It´s long overdue.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    , @L Garou
  3. Avery says:

    {…and watch this violent, genocidal abomination fall apart. It´s long overdue.}


  4. Avery says:

    {…and the Turkeys should get a Turkey without a spoiler minority.}

    You got it backwards: Turks are the spoilers: nomad invaders from Uyguristan (East and Central Asia).

    Kurds are indigenous to the general region, but not where they are now.
    Kurds were brought in by Turks from their homelands (near Iran) to fill up the lands that Turks emptied out of the indigenous peoples: Armenians, Assyrian, Pontic Greeks (relative latecomers).
    The method of “emptying out” was outright Genocide.

    Turks should not get squat: cursed invadonomad Turks should live in Hell and eternal misery, until they come clean and answer for the Genocides they committed.

  5. Kiza says:

    Excellent analysis by Saker and a top class conclusion. Let us hope now that the Russian leadership understands all this as well as the Saker does. In full honesty, I still fail to understand how the Russians could have trusted Turks and exposed themselves to Su24 shootdown.

    In my nation, which has experienced half an eon of Turkish occupation, there is a saying developed based on the experience with the Turks: a wolf can change its fur with the season, but his nature changes never. I believe that the Russians have another saying: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    Unfortunately, dissolution of Turkey would be the best outcome, but Israel and the US will never permit this to happen. It is the same two who keep Erdogan in power, although they may be losing patience with his loose cannon behavior. If Erdogan goes too far, they may pull Davutoglu out of mothballs Erdogan put him into. A large and powerful Turkey is the best tool against Russia, just ask the British. Therefore, the article is good but a bit of wishful thinking on Saker’s part.

  6. Diogenes says:

    No doubt about it, Erdogan is a dangerous megalomaniac but it appears Turkey is fated to misrule by him. Just another sad example of how susceptible the voting masses show poor judgement in electing their leaders. Just another case which proves the cynical maxim: people get the leaders they deserve. Unfortunately, by so doing they also inflict misfortune on their neighbors as well. If that was truly their wish, to bring misfortune to their neighbors ;they are deserving of the misfortune they shall bring on themselves. Yet by contrast the Syrian people did not deserve the misfortune they begot as a consequence of the policies their own [dynastic?] leader!

  7. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    All of which probably means Erdogan will want to start a war to distract Turks from the parlous state of Turkey and to avoid the imposition of an external solution.

  8. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    “a stunning 80% of the Turks supports ISIS”


    If true, why?

    Cuz ISIS kills Kurds?
    Cuz ISIS kills Syrians?

  9. So, this can be all summed up by saying that Turkey under Erdogan has shown a truly Ukrainian-level of incompetence, arrogance and delusion.

    Wow! Now that’s delusional.

    Incidentally, whatever happened to our resident Ukie-bots here at Has anyone here heard from ‘AP’ or ‘unit472’ lately?

  10. Cyrano says:

    Russia wanted to put Turkey out of their misery as early as the Crimean war. I guess you could say they were in favor of assisted dying to the degenerate empire called “The sick man of the Bosphorus.”

    Unfortunately, France and Britain stepped in to play the nurses to the “sick man” like in some bad porno movie. Anyhow, thanks to their intervention the “sick man” survived, but now is showing signs of mental illness. I just get kick out of Turkey being offended for having its actions against Armenia in WW1 called “genocide”.

    The whole existence of the Ottoman Empire was genocidal, with the recipients being usually the European Christians. Remember Vlad the Impaler? Well, it turns out he learned his favourite method of capital punishment from the Turks and he often did practice it on them.

    Thank God that Turks didn’t invent any major religion, because I suspect that they might have used a figure of a man with a pole in his bum as a symbol of that religion. Although given the present day circumstances, the gay community might have embraced a religion that uses such a symbol.

  11. Talha says:

    anti-Armenian, anti-Kurdish, anti-Armenian

    Dag yo – That is seriously anti-Armenian!

    • Replies: @Avery
  12. Avery says:

    Dag yo – sure is.
    So what’s yo problem, bro?

  13. Talha says:

    Dear Kiza,

    Unfortunately, dissolution of Turkey would be the best outcome

    I hope that sentiment is hyperbolic…you cannot be serious that this would be the best outcome. The collapse of the Turkish nation-state with a foothold in Europe and fairly modern arms would leave a swath of uncontrolled borders from powder kegs like Iraq/Syria into Southern Europe – how can that possibly be in anyone’s interest? Imagine the Libyan collapse on steroids. Imagine not swarms of refugees but swarms of well-armed military-aged men crossing the Bosphorus.

    Bill Lind, an expert on Fourth Generation Warfare, has made it clear that the collapse of the nation state must be avoided by any reasonable means:
    “In each case, the root problem will be the same: the disintegration of the local state. And in each case, the attempt to recreate a state by sending in American armed forces will fail.”

    “Part of the reason the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not succeeding is that our initial invasion destroyed the state, creating a happy hunting ground for Fourth Generation forces. In a world where the state is in decline, if you destroy a state, it is very difficult to recreate it.

    There is wisdom in the statement “better the devil you know…”


    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @anon
  14. Avery says:

    {…but Israel and the US will never permit this to happen. }

    You are correct that neither US nor Israel will want it to happen, and will try everything to prevent it – for the reasons you stated. (“A large and powerful Turkey is the best tool against Russia.”)

    But neither US nor Israel can stop Kurds from having lots of babies.
    Kurds in occupied West Armenia (aka East Turkey) are increasing at 2x-3x the rate of Turks nearer to Bosphorus. Desperate Erdogan has been running around urging Turks to have more children. If present trends continue, Kurds will become majority around 2040.

    Kurds will break off from Turkey: just a matter of time.
    No earthy power can stop it.
    Alawites – about 10 million and oppressed by Sunni Turks – will be next.

    • Replies: @map
    , @Anonymous
  15. virgile says:

    Russia and Iran are the last chance for Turkey to prosper.
    in 2010, Erdogan ( and his mentor Davutoglu) were loosing hopes in the EU after having benefitted from its guidance ro reshuffle the ailing government and institutions. Not only the EU was reluctant to fully embrace Turkey but it was going in a economical crisis that was limiting Turkey’s trade.
    Davutoglu had the ‘brilliant idea’ that the Arab world was the best market to dump turkish products. Arab countries are not industrialized as Turkey is and they could be excellent consumers considering the money held by the Gulf countries.
    Therefore the seduction campaign started and trade barrirs were falling. Syria was the first country to suffer from the dumping of cheap turkish merchandise that brought small manufacturers to bankrupt.
    The Arab spring brought a new dimension that Erdogan an Davutolu through was great: A Turkish-inspired moderate Islam would be unifying the Arab countries: a sort of Sunni Union where the leader was Turkey. Bashar al Assad, a non-sunni was a nuisance, he had to leave the space to the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood as in Tunisia and in Egypt.
    That vision did not have the favor of Saudi Arabia. While they wanted to get rid of Bashar al Assad seen as an ally to Iran and the Shias, they were not ready to give Turkey the leadership of the Arab sunnis and they dreaded the moslem brotherhood.
    So it all went wrong for Turkey. It now have abandoned the dream of leading the Arab World into a ‘moderate’ Islam. It is turning its back to the EU and the Arabs and moving toward Iran and Russia.
    This approach can be very successful as Iran Russia and Turkey are the giants of western Asia.

    Abandoned by the USA, the Arabs who refuse to accept that leadership are doomed. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Bahrain may soon explode under internal pressures. A new era is opening in the region not anymore dominated by the USA but by a coalition made of Russia, Turkey and Iran.

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  16. Boris N says:

    I’ve been reading the Saker for a quite long time, but I never commented or argued with him because this is utterly pointless. I’d just like to say that I always wondered how a person could be so detached from the reality. Now we have another series of his non-stop fairy tales about Great Putin and the great Kremlin which cleverly outwit every enemy of the State. And here the Saker has overstepped his limits, I think only his success stories about the Russian victories over Ukraine are more ridiculous.

    I just wonder why even in such a dissent non-mainstream website like the voice for Russia is given to such ridiculous people who live in their fantasy mini-worlds, who either never lived in Russia, like the Saker, or lived, but it was so long ago, like Karlin, that that child experience does not count. I would think that these people are paid by the Kremlin, but I’m sure that they write for free, because their power of self-illusion is so great, that it does not need any money.

    So we have a strange situation that for the past 15 or so years those who have been speaking for Russia in the West have been either the US-based liberals or neo-cons (I hardly can tell the difference) from NYT or WP, or the same US-based but emigre Putinist idealists, who write nearly the same nonsense about Russia but from the opposite, “ultra-patriotic” (if the world “Russian patriot” can be applied to the devoted US residents and citizens) point of view. I hope that sometimes in the future the voice for Russia will be given neither to militant Russophobes nor to militant Russophiles but to moderate Russians who live in the country, love it, understand it, but still have no illusions about its state as well.

    • Replies: @utu
  17. Boris N says:

    And after my rant about the poor state of Russian journalism in the English-language MSM, I will say more about this ridiculous article.

    If I were a Russophobic troll, which I’m definitely not, I would say, and I will say this now just to break such a pleasure for those potential Russophobic trolls, that if one substitutes Turkey for Russia and changes some small details, then this article will be a perfect description of the current state of affairs in Russia.

    I say this not because Russia is as bad as Turkey, no, but my point that while some pro-Russian “experts” might be prophesying the inevitable fall of the Turkish state and a glorious future for Russia, in reality the Russian state itself may be rushing into great troubles as well. And Russia in fact is as a shattered lame empire as Turkey if not worse.

    But what surprises me more, and that may imply a large scale conspiracy, that both the Russian-Turkish “divorce” and “reunion” were so abrupt, that it looks like neither Putin nor Erdogan are independent players here. They have been acting like remote controled robots. Hardly a day has passed, and Putin already lifts his sanctions against tourism to Turkey. A day! How can it be so swift? Putin looks like a lover who has just thrown himself into his missed lover’s arms. It looks like it is Russia which is in an urgent need of Turkey and is much more eager to restore the old friendship.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Kiza
    , @utu
    , @Anonymous
  18. utu says:
    @Boris N

    “neither Putin nor Erdogan are independent players here.” – That’s what it seems and that what it is.

  19. utu says:
    @Boris N

    #17 – I am glad you wrote it. Who is this Saker guy? His writing is so infantile as if he lived in some fantasy world w/o real life experience. Perhaps he is autistic. He likes to make lists to organize his reality. A sure sign of Asperger.

    English language Russian media are also pathetic. I wish they were better. Anglo-American propaganda needs strong counterpoints. They could score many good points but they keep missing them over and over again. They sound contrived w/o any spontaneity. They do not get any traction. What’s wrong with Russian journalists? Don’t they have their own Jews to do the media?

    • Replies: @Boris N
  20. Kiza says:

    Simply, you are painting the worst case scenario, which is extremely unlikely. What you are describing is what typically happens after US and Israel regime change a country (Libya, Syria etc). The scenario of Turkey dissolving is a natural one into multiple states, as Avery suggest, a Sunni one but much smaller, a Kurdish one and a Shiite one. Countries have been dissolving into parts for thousands of years without your scenario of chaos. When chaos happens, it is more a planned outcome of the external power than a natural outcome.

    You say: “if you destroy a state, it is very difficult to recreate it”. Who would want to re-create Turkey then its current masters, US and Israel? The nations which want independence from a genocidal centralised Turkish state certainly would never want it recreated.

    It appears that the self-declared Masters of the Universe, Israel and US, decide which country should be dissolved (Iraq) and which should not (Turkey), very much like the British did before them. Local people never count in those schemes.

    • Replies: @Talha
  21. Kiza says:
    @Boris N

    You say that you are a “moderate Russian” but you are arguing for the Russian state to fall apart, or at least claim that this is more likely than Turkey falling apart. Wishing for your own country to fall apart is, in every country of the World, considered treason and you would not even remotely be considered a Russian, let alone a “moderate”.

    I do not know who pays Saker, I believe he lives off his publicism for which there is a market in the West, but you could be paid by the Qataris who bid to build their alternative pipeline through Turkey to Europe.

    Or maybe you are just a spawn of the marriage between the two leading anti-Russian trolls, utu and unit472. Children cannot choose their parents.

    Every now and then, a (Russian pro-Western Liberal) troll pops up, like a Jack-in-the-Box, aiming to convince readers that Putin works for foreign interests, Putin is actually a puppet of the West. Moronic!

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Boris N
  22. Avery says:

    {Wishing for your own country to fall apart is, in every country of the World, considered treason and you would not even remotely be considered a Russian, let alone a “moderate”.}


    The correct handle for the anti-Russian shape-shifter posing as a Russian would be:

    Ahmad N.
    Muhammad N.
    Tayip N.
    IslamoFascist N.
    Türkoğlu N.
    Uyguroğlu N.
    Siktiroğlu N.

    • Replies: @Boris N
  23. utu says:
    @Boris N

    An example of good work by Russian “propaganda”.

    • Replies: @Boris N
  24. Talha says:

    Dear Kiza,

    the worst case scenario, which is extremely unlikely

    Well I have to admit, you sir, are a true optimist compared to me.

    The way I see it, the current Middle East is a case study in the worst case scenarios – all stemming from the original single misguided decision to remove the Baathist regime in Iraq. That match has currently lit the following countries on fire; Iraq, Syria, Libya and Yemen – with parts of Egypt teetering. None of these nations looks to have a resolution in the near future. In fact, only Afghanistan looks to be able to reconstitute itself and that is only because the Taliban will likely take it over. If you think Turkey will be split cleanly into a three parts – a bit like the Czechs and the Slovaks shook hands and parted ways – then, well – as I said – you are an optimist. My scenario includes ultra-nationalist Turkish elements crossing the border to march on Yerevan.

    The current Turkish government has major faults, but as Saker has pointed out, due to serious economic and political pressure, it has compromised and realigned itself. This is extremely important because 4th generation entities are not as malleable. The stakes of a Turkish -state collapse are very dire. Already, people are contemplating maddening scenarios:
    “In recent days, U.S. officials have hinted that they may be willing to provide the weapons — known in military circles as MANPADS, short for “man-portable air defense system” — with one major caveat: They include technical controls that would limit where they can be used to ensure they don’t one day fall into terrorist hands.”

    The only reason ISIS does not currently have them is because the Saudis (for all their madness) are still a state that is pliable by political pressure:
    “He [commander of a US-backed militia) said he has hopes that Saudi Arabia and Qatar may tire with the U.S. ban on supplying MANPADS and break coalition ranks, but that the Gulf countries are not ready to flaunt the Americans.”

    I have zero doubts that this is on the wish list of certain people within the Turkish military and the only thing keeping them in check is the central command. If the state collapses – all bets are off.

    a genocidal centralised Turkish state

    Perhaps…then again, a genocidal force need not be centralized at all as we are seeing time and a again.


    • Replies: @Kiza
  25. joe webb says:

    The sacker demands equality…. we are all equal. repeat after me. We are all reasonable human beings willing to discuss rationally our various problems. let us start with female cutting…..JW

    • Replies: @anonymous
  26. Wally says: • Website

    The other side of the ‘Armenian genocide’ story:

    The Armenian Allegation of Genocide: The issue and the facts

    Yes, there is another side.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @KA
  27. KA [AKA "carthage"] says:

    Putin can’t trust Turkey anymore but it has to live with it. Turkey’s treatment of Kurds is one notch better that Russian treatment of Chechnya . Kurds have a better media presence and future because it has more powerful friends

    Turkey has tried to fish in the troubled water around it but it was not upto the task .Russia has done same vs Iran until it faced the reality of American NATO at its borders .
    Russia is powerful but China is occupying and prospering in its far east . Poland is another wild card It does carry a lot of baggage that it prevents it from having normal relation with Russia . Russia is worried of Finland Finland might get a leader like Polish president or like one who acts like Turkey’s madman .

    Turkey’s best bet is to suck up to Russia while Russia survival depends on China and Poland Finland and Baltic.
    America might again reach a detente with China under Clinton That will create a new fear for Russia . India will tilt further to US against Russia It has already done quite a bit. Russia just like Turkey has few friends It’s best friends may turn out to be those 5 Stans and Armenia
    Under Clinton we don’t know how things will turn out in Eurasia . But Russia has shown that it will protect its interest .A clash of larger magnitude is possible . One hopes wisdom prevails .

    One wonders why Russia still believes in US overtures . Is it the fear of internal destabilization?

  28. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @joe webb

    Webb, when you were born, the doctor attempted a circumcision but only succeeded in giving you a lobotomy.

  29. tbraton says:

    “In full honesty, I still fail to understand how the Russians could have trusted Turks and exposed themselves to Su24 shootdown. ”

    It wasn’t the Turks the Russians mistakenly trusted; it was the U.S. Apparently thinking they had an understanding with the U.S., the Russians agreed to provide the U.S. with its flight path info in order to avoid unnecessary conflict. Even with that info, there is no way that Turkey could have pulled off that stunt without close collaboration of the U.S. Merely providing flight path info did not give the Turks enough info to stage the ambush. That’s why the U.S. sent an AWACs plane from Greece and the Saudis sent one from the opposite direction to track the Russian plane and provide the info to the Turks, who had a plane flying low to avoid Russian radar. By getting info from the two AWACs planes, the Turks were able to pinpoint the Russian plane without using their own radar that would have alerted the Russians. The Turkish plane arose from its low flight path, shot missiles at the fleeing Russian bomber and then skedaddled back to its base. It was an ambush, pure and simple, arranged by the U.S.

    BTW there seems to be a conflict between your opening sentence and your concluding sentence.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  30. “Finally, there is a very real possibility that the bombing of the airport in Ankara Istambul might be a very direct message sent to Erdogan: “if you try to appease the Russians we will unleash hell on you”.”

    The timing was indeed a bit too convenient to discount this possibility.

  31. Avery says:

    {Yes, there is another side.}

    No, there isn’t.
    Is that the best you can do, denialist Turkophile shill?
    Ministry of FA of the genocidal, criminal, unnatural state Turkey?

    There is no other side, you Uyguroğlu denialist.
    Invadonomad Turkic nomad tribes, from Nomadistan, invaded Asia Minor.
    Uyguroğlar Turkic nomad tribes committed Genocide of indigenous, sedentary peoples of Asia Minor.
    1000s of years of civilization created by the Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks were destroyed by nomad savage scum.
    The nomads stole and misappropriated everything they did not destroy.

    Germany, Ottoman Turkey’s ally in WW1, just recently acknowledged Germany’ role in their genocidal Turkoğlu ally committing the Armenian Genocide.

    There is no other side, you Uyguroğlu Turkophile denialist.

    • Replies: @Wally
  32. Kiza says:

    I do not think that anyone knows how things would develop if Turkey started falling apart (best case or worst case scenario), but as stated before – US and Israel will not permit Turkey to fall apart, therefore you insist discussing a pointless issue. For example, they will turn against the Kurds and the next road bend, only the dumb Kurds do not understand this.

    With respect (you appear a very polite fellow), what is said in the international relations and what is really going on are totally different (Eureka!). For example, there are some indications that CIA trains and supports ISIS at least within Iraq: Whilst the Western politicians heap all the worst on ISIS and blame it for all manner of terrorism, Pentagon and the US MSM pretend that US bombs ISIS. But the situation appears much more complicated than the simplified one for the consumption by the mindless masses.


  33. Kiza says:

    What you describe is the unofficial version of what happened over Northern Syria. I believe I was the first one here claiming that it was the US which shot down the Russian bomber using the Turkish airforce general trained/indoctrinated and/or blackmailed bribed by the US to do. The only difference to your description is that there were two Turkish F16s, which jumped up, one shot air-to-air missiles, both F16s dropped down and then skedaddled back to their base. Due to Norther Syria being mostly mountains shadowing Russian radar, without a fighter escort and no Russian AWACS in the air, the shootdown was quite easy, a classical ambush as you said. But my point was not about what happened then Putin’s post-shootdown statement, which was possibly one of his worst ever. My point was also that only a fool turns his back to Turkey and expects not to be stabbed. Whether US took the opportunity or not is irrelevant to this point. But, who else is Putin turning his back to now, the US and Israel? Is he following too much Western MSM and started believing that the West is actually fighting ISIS just like the Western cattle?

    Regarding your last query, my comment gave praise to Saker’s analysis but criticised his wishful thinking. Hoping to avoid war is a very human wishful thinking, but it probably never works out. I am sure that the millions of Russians pray to avoid a NATO attack or “regime-change” in Russia, but hoping and praying is unlikely to help. The dynamics of war is unavoidable.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  34. KA says:

    Grnocidal allegations against Russia abound in steppe in Kazhakistan,Caucasian in Kryzistan both under Czar and under Bolshevik. Russia’s beginning in Rus ,Novograd area morphed into Russian empire thought fights,violence,uprooting and subjugation of tribes and confederates around it starting from around 9 th century AD . There ere many players- Slavinic tribes of Belarus and Ukraine of present day, Varaygi or Vikings,Finnish people( populated most of current Russia west of Ural) , Turkish speaking Bulgar, Khazar and in south Magyar.
    Svyatoslav ,the first Tribal chief of the loose confederation of Rus defeated Bukgars and Khazars ,then decided to attack Byzantium via Crimea. Byzantinum used Tutkish tribe Pechenges to thwart his advance . He was killed by Pechenegs. Svyatoslav’s son would seize Chevren,Przemysal and surrounding areas from the Poles .His son would advance west killing Poles ,Litunianis,and Finns
    Russia has an origin that is politically and geographically limited to that little area known as Kievan Rus – both a geographic and political and later religious entity.
    In less than 200 yrs Russian noble would be sacking their own cradle Kiev ( Prince A, Bogolyubsky 1169 AD ) Capturing and selling other tribes in peace time or in war did not disappear when Vikings and Byzantum stopped interfering in the areas running from Black Sea to Baltic . It was perfected by Kiev and later by its successor states- Suzdal, Vladimir. Novogord and Bogolyubovo. Those names don’t mean much but where the bodies of the early victims of Russian empire are buried . Later there were be more in disparate lands from Tutkmenistan to Siberia .

    • Replies: @Talha
  35. tbraton says:

    I was merely questioning your assertion that the Russians should not have trusted the Turks since I believe it is unchallenged that the Turks alone could not have pulled off this ambush of the Russian bomber.

    • Agree: Kiza
  36. Talha says:

    Hey KA,

    Much of this is beyond mere allegations (only a fraction of Circassians live in their ancestral Caucasus region) – empires are usually built in pounds of flesh and blood. And there are reasons why certain rulers, like Ivan, are known outside Russia as ‘The Terrible’.


  37. @Kiza

    you are more right than shaker i think. Cancer is good for USA and israel (the same hawks), they spread the cáncer across the middle east, now, Turkey is already and always was, a real can,cer as a country, was a nightmare for Europe in the past and will be now for central asia, and rusia.. china. Dont be afraid, NIza and Shaker, Rusia, besides building rockets, has thousands of intel people very competent, and are at work. I think , the better can do Rusia, is disable the prospect engineered by USA corporation.

  38. Rehmat says:

    “A coalition made of Russia, Turkey and Iran”, will also serve Israel’s interests; to bring a pro-Israel regime change in Tehran. In the “trio”, Iran is the only which wants to “wipe Zionist regime from Middle East” while Turkey and Russia had been sharing bed since 1949.

    A great majority of Iranian people don’t trust Russia and Turkey due to their deep ties with Tel Aviv.

  39. Wally says: • Website

    So IOW, you have no proof for the “1,500,000 genocided Armenians”.

  40. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    What ever happened to the Turkey of the past that had the Army generals rising up, kicking out some president who’d gotten to big for his britches, then holding onto power until the next election, when they’d step down?

    Has American money even corrupted those Turks?

    • Replies: @Kiza
  41. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Merkel and Erdogan.


  42. USA and Russia should be close allies and friends. They should make common cause to destroy and break up Turkey forever.

    Give the most advanced arms to the Kurds and have the U.S. And Russian air forces pound Turkey’s airbases, air defenses, and cities, jointly, 24/7 round the clock.

    For poetic justice, let the Armenians hang Erdogan themselves.

    Expel all Turk animals from beautiful Deutschland, too, while we’re dreaming…..

  43. I’m not sure whether Russia wants Erdogan replaced by somebody else. After all a weakened Erdogan may be better than an unknown. On the other hand I think Erdogan will accept a lot of Russian demands, because he knows Russia is reliable and Putin’s word can be trusted. So he will throw a lot of ballast, and under cover: he controls the media and the deep state, so he can do it. And he will purge his former PM’s allies… He knows his quarrel with Russia was foolish, and he knows he has to change some of his failed policies: he needs to mend fences with Syria, to crack down on ISIS and the other groups, and get in exchange the pipeline and an overture to the Eurasian market Russia is building.

  44. anon • Disclaimer says:

    I agree with you. The Turks would be better off without the Kurds, even if they do not realize that. Also Europe will have to repatriate the non-Europeans who have arrived on their soil.

  45. anon • Disclaimer says:

    You keep using the term “the Turkish nation-state”. That is JUST the problem sport. Turkey is NOT a “nation-state”. Turkey would have to cede a large amount of its territory and millions of its citizens to a Kurdistan country in making, just to even begin to start to qualify as a nation-state.

  46. Talha says:

    Hey anon,

    Agree and disagree. Yes there is no pure ‘Turkish nation state’ as you correctly point out (in an ethno-linguistic sense) – I will adjust my terms. Turkey is a multi-ethnic nation-state; the same as Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan and even Spain, which has a very similar situation vis-a-vis the Basques and its ethnic-majority Spaniards.


    • Replies: @Avery
    , @anon
  47. CM says:

    I have a very poor opinion of both Turkey and Turkish people. I hope their country turns into another Syria. It would be payback for the Armenian Genocide that they continually boast about and the oppression of Kurds.

  48. Avery says:

    { Turkey is a multi-ethnic nation-state; the same as Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan and even Spain,}


    I am not aware of either Iran, or Indonesia, or Pakistan, or even Spain having committed Genocide against their indigenous populations: are you?
    And as far as I know the peoples of Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan, or even Spain are (largely) their own indigenous peoples from way back.

    Not like the so-called “multi-ethnic nation-state” of Turkey, established by Turkic invadonomad tribes from East and Central Asia.
    Established after the indigenous Christian populations were massacred, ethnically cleansed, forcibly Turkified, forcibly Islamized – and finally the coup the grace: Genocide

    But I don’t know.
    You are a smart, educated individual: maybe you know something about the so-called “multi-ethnic nation-state” of Turkey that I don’t.
    Not the first time: I have been wrong lots of times before.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Talha
  49. Kiza says:
    @Greg Bacon

    No, Erdogan has put most of them in jail, more than 300 top Turkish military brass are in jail. Besides, most of the Turkish military brass has been educated in US, which means that if the US wanted to do a coup in Turkey, to replace Erdogan, even with the remaining generals “loyal” to Erdogan this would not be very hard. But so far, Erdogan has not earned himself a coup, especially not by trading with and supplying military gear to the CIA darling ISIS.

  50. Kiza says:

    You posted on a fascinating issue – the restoration of Constantinopolis and the potential Russian role in this. It is an old Orthodox Christian dream to free Constantinopolis and Hagia Sophia, which remained under Turkish control only thanks to the British and French intervention on Turkey’s behalf (some crusaders). To the Orthodox Christians Constantinopolis is even more important than Jerusalem.

    I wish it but I do not think this will happen, as stated – Israel, US and their EU puppets will not let Turkey decline and dissolve because Turkey is their main tool against Russia, the same reason that the British and the French protected Turkey in the previous centuries.

    I remember wondering during my childhood schooling – how come Turkey kept this small piece of Europe, the strait of Bosphorus, and Constantinopolis when Turks are an Asiatic nation and they were soundly defeated in the First Balkan War? In other words, who kept Turkey in Europe? Maybe some past Turkish ass licker like Merkel?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Crawfurdmuir
    , @tbraton
  51. Talha says:

    Hey Kiza,

    Remember, the Turks held their own, pound for pound, man for man at Gallipoli. I don’t think they are a push over as some people seem to think. An invasion into Turkey will be as likely a cake-walk as one into Persia.


    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Anonymous
    , @Kiza
  52. krollchem says:

    Turkey also faces a social upheaval due to population pressures, energy shortages (oil, gas LPG) and water conflicts from reduced flow of water to Syria, Iraq and Iran due to massive Turkish dam and irrigation projects.

    Likewise Syria and Iraq will continue to suffer from salinization of the soil and water shortages on top of the civil war triggered by the drought of 2016-2010. Meanwhile, there is no money to rebuild Syria and Iraq leading to massive refugee issues.

    The consequences for the EU are predictable due to mass immigration as a result of EU support for US and Israeli policies in the middle east and Africa.

    Blowback is a bitch.

  53. Avery says:

    {Remember, the Turks held their own, pound for pound, man for man at Gallipoli.}

    Another Turkophile myth.

    The Gallipoli defense was organized by German Otto Liman von Sanders.
    Turks were equipped and supported by Germans.
    Turks held the high ground.

    The landing by the Allies was botched from the get-go.
    Several ships were lost to mines due to extreme carelessness.
    Even given that, Turks lost more men KIA and WIA than the allies.
    With all the advantages, Turks barely “won”.

    Turks and Russians have met in battle something like 12 times or so.
    Russians have crushed Turks every time.
    The one time Russians did not crush them was during the Crimean war: Turks were finished, until English and French armies rushed in and saved them.

    Turks are competent fighters, for sure.
    But they are not the mythical invincible force they and others believe them to be.

    During the Battle of Sarikamish, Russian Caucasus Army under Yudenich and supported by local Armenian volunteers who knew the land, completely wiped out Turks’ 3rd army of about 100,000, under genocidal leader Enver pasha.

    At the epic Battle of Sardarabad, Armenians – outnumbered 2-to-1 – thoroughly defeated the Turkish regular troops and sent them running like rabbits.

    Turks have always been saved from total defeat by Western powers or by external support.
    The mythical “father” of Turks, Mustafa Kemal (not an ethnic Turk, btw), was finished, on the ropes. Until Bolsheviks, ordered by Lenin, rushed in wagonloads of brand new Mosin-Nagant rifles, ammunition, cannon, gold,…..

    If US stops supporting Turks, Russia will dismember and wipe them out in a matter months.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Druid
  54. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t the term “multi-ethnic nation-state” a contradiction? I would call Japan a nation-state, but I would never call it a multi-ethnic state. I would call the old Habsburg Austria-Hungary empire a multi-ethnic state, but I would never call it a nation-state.

    • Replies: @Talha
  55. @Kiza

    I remember wondering during my childhood schooling – how come Turkey kept this small piece of Europe, the strait of Bosphorus, and Constantinopolis when Turks are an Asiatic nation and they were soundly defeated in the First Balkan War? In other words, who kept Turkey in Europe? Maybe some past Turkish ass licker like Merkel?

    If Prince Eugene of Savoy had not been held back by Charles VI in 1718, he might well have kicked the Turks out of Europe and back across the Bosphorus. The emperor was being pressed to settle with them by Britain and Holland, whose trade in the eastern Mediterranean was being disrupted by the Austro-Turkish and Veneto-Turkish war, and the Treaty of Passarowitz left the Turks with a foothold in Europe.

  56. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It’s amazing, isn’t it, that almost a hundred years after the Turks were defeated and finally pushed out of the places they occupied for hundreds of years that many people still despise them to this very day, past all living memory. They certainly had to have worked very hard to have earned the level of enmity evident every time they come up as a subject of discussion. Apparently there’s no one with a good word for them except for those paid to do so. Probably be the same for another hundred years.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Kiza
  57. Solemnity says:

    I would like to just add that there are 2 fine studies by Columbia University that prove that Turkey has supported ISIS. (The US has probably approved of that support, but that’s another subject):

    They are both on Huffington, and they’re very good:

  58. Talha says:

    Hey anon,

    Nation-state is a tough term to pin down, there is no one definition:

    I am using it as a term in defining a political entity in opposition to others like tribal confederations, city-states, etc. My contention is, if you consider multi-ethnic political organizations, such as Spain to be a nation-state, then so is Turkey – irrespective of historical circumstances under which it was established.


  59. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:

    Erdogan is a funny bunny.

    There is globalism and nationalism as rivals in the world today.

    Erdogan plays on both hard nationalism and reckless globalism.

    He’s a hardline Turkite with national pride(even chauvinism) but he’s been messing with global affairs that got Turkey involved with Syria War and EU migration crisis.

    He deals with fire and ice but nothing in between. Something’s gotta give.

  60. Talha says:

    Hey Avery,

    Never said they were invincible, you did. I said it wouldn’t be a cakewalk.

    Gallipoli was a brilliant defense (of course you take the high ground), the Turks were outmatched by the more modern French and British Empire and still won – when defending, if you don’t lose or even have a stalemate, you win, even if ‘barely’. You can ask the ANZAC how incompetent the Turks that they faced off against were.

    Agreed, the Russians (along with other European powers) were roundly defeating the Ottomans time and time again. Had the Ottomans reorganized their army earlier, this may not have been as bad, but the sun had set on their empire as it had set on so many others.

    If US stops supporting Turks, Russia will dismember and wipe them out in a matter months.

    Assuming Russian central command even wants to do this and went punch-drunk insane and tried this, I have little doubt they would eventually establish air superiority just due to attrition. Of course Israel had full air superiority over Lebanon, as did we over Iraq, as did both us and the Russians over Afghanistan. I’ve heard the ‘in a matter of months’ so often, I’ll believe it when I see it.


  61. tbraton says:

    I believe at the conclusion of WWI Greece was most anxious to conquer the European part of Turkey where Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) was situated, which was defenseless, but Britain and France said no. Apparently they wanted the same country controlling the vital isthmus between the Black Sea and the Aegean. Fear of Russia, which also had its eye on the Bosporus, probably played a role. Remember the Great Game between Great Britain and Russia had recently ended.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  62. anon • Disclaimer says:

    That makes me wonder just how brutal and vicious Turkish rule must have truly been. I think the practice of “Janissaries” the kidnapping of Christian European children and then turning them into Turkish soldiers against their own people was especially inhumane and cruel.

    • Agree: Kiza
  63. map says:

    Are the Turks providing welfare to the Kurds?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  64. Kiza says:

    What you describe is exactly what I was referring to as British and French intervention which kept Turkey in Europe. I do not remember the details, but most nations in the Balkans do remember who prevented the return of the Second Rome to the Christians.

    You are only mistaken about the Great Game between Great Britain and Russia ending. After the Poles, and ignoring the piddly Baltic states, the British are the biggest Russia haters in Europe. But they love the money of the Russian Jewish oligarchs. Inside EU or outside of EU, Britain will still work on reducing Russia to what Britain is now – a has been. The French and the Germans have traditionally had a better attitude to Russia than Britain, which stoops down to the emotion of hate, not sure exactly why.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  65. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Listen up idiot. First off it’s called Alevi not Alawite, do you understand armenian filth?

    Secondly the Majority of Alevis are Turkmens.

    Filthy Armenian animal.

    • Replies: @uncle tungsten
    , @Parbes
    , @Avery
  66. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Yes they get welfare. For example Batman a city in the South-East, 80% of the population is on welfare. They also get free electricity and water and on top of that they make ~ 10 babies each.

    In the 90’s Turkey also took in about 1 million Iraqi Kurds (refugees) which now has likely multiplied into 2-3 Million extra kurds in the country.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  67. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Hahahahaahaha pussies talking about invading Turkey, taking back Istanbul…..are you all fucking stupid?

    Please come and try to invade, we fight to the death and we will destroy your internet warrior pussy asses? Do you understand maggots? Even Russia can’t invade Turkey and hold it, no one can, they best they can do is drop a Nuclear bombs and that’s not likely to happen.

    Another thing you forget Turkey is not just “one” country, even in Iran you have almost 40 Million Azerbaijani Turks. Who the fuck do you guys think we are? Turks were one of the biggest empires in the world for the last thousand years.

    • Replies: @bluedog
    , @RadicalCenter
  68. Kiza says:

    Your question has two important sub-questions:
    1) why do occupied nations hate the occupiers for hundreds of years later?
    2) why do the nations which the Turks occupied more than 100 years ago hate them now?

    The first is a general issue – the occupiers do rule by murder and fear, no matter that the Turks did not actively convert the local Christians into Sunni Muslims (they only offered incentives by imposing high taxes on non-Muslims, taxes of goods/money and taxes of blood – taking young Christian children, wiping off their Christian memories and turning them into the crack Turkish troops against the Christians – the Janissaries).

    The second subquestion is why are the Turks hated to this day. The Turks are hated to this date because they are trying to restore the Ottoman Empire. They are meddling into the Balkan countries which used to be part of the empire, supporting the Sunni Muslims in them to raise again to the level they had under the Turkish occupation – to become the ruling class. The West did not lose sleep over Ahmet Davutoglu traveling through the Balkans and arguing for the Ottoman restoration on behalf of the Turkish political party of imperialism AKP. Turkey turning itself from a friend of Syria into an enemy is part and parcel of the same desire for neo-Ottoman restoration. Turkey, according to AKP, should spread from Vienna in the West, via Crimea, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and so on, all the way to XinJiang in the East.

    Essentially, the Turks will not be let into the EU, but as long as they fight the Russians, they can get away with almost anything they like.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @anonymous
  69. Great Article, thanks.

    Yep, Erdogan is nuts. Another important fact to reinforce this is his crackdown on any dissenting opinions. It not only shows his desperation but the level of frustration everyone is feeling about his reign. He’s jailing anyone and everyone now, even top level conservatives. He’s out of control.

  70. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Patriots in Europe are called ‘far right’ by the Western Globo-Media.

    I think US empire should be called Far-Zionist, Far-Globalist, Far-Homomaniacal, and Far-Imperialist.

  71. Yes it is now time to partition Turkey, restore Armenian lands, restore Kurdish lands, restore Cyprus lands and recognize their self government.The Turkish state was always a problem but in a modern world they have a right to exist as do Palestinians.

    Erdogan has achieved what seemed impossible and that is to bring the partition of the Turkey we have in to the nations that it tried to extinguish by its nonsense borders.

  72. Kiza says:

    Sorry, my comment #68 is in response to you.

  73. @Anonymous

    Correct Anonymous, and that is precisely why the partition of Turkey is so urgent. That way all the other centuries old groups can have their homelands restored and prosper. The Turkmens can withdraw from Syria and leave Latakia in peace. The Kurds can restore their small areas of ancient occupation and the Armenians can once again occupy the eastern regions in peace and restore the prosperity.

    Erdogan has managed to bring this circumstance through almost to fruition and without any help from Gulan.

  74. Bolek says:

    “this can be all summed up by saying that Turkey under Erdogan has shown a truly Ukrainian-level of incompetence, arrogance and delusion.”
    Bad example. Ukrainian level of incompetence, arrogance and delusion is so exceptional that literally no one can, ever, come close to it.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  75. Boris N says:

    I think the Saker is a good person, he once revealed a little his personality (if it’s true I do not know but I’ll take it at face value). He is a >50-years old Swiss-born USA-residing descendant of White Russian emigres, who most likely has not lived in Russia (though some short-stayed tourism to Motherland is possible), but who obviously loves Russia very much and wish it everything good, but this does not make his over-positive wishful thinking true. I wish him everything good, but I wish as well that he become not so over-positive and unrealistic. I think an active communication with real common Russians might change that.
    I’m also sure he really sincerely believes what he says, and even if he gets money for his journalism, I will not blame him for it. In some way, he is doing a good job opposing the Western anti-Russian media hysteria.

    As for the Russian Jews they all have already fled to Washington or London and have become “experts” on Russia there. Or if they still live in Russia, they are working for anti-Russian pro-Western outlets. I even would say that Russian pro-government MSM are as well anti-Russian and pro-Western, no matter how it may sound odd. Really pro-Russian media are all underground and usually do not go out of the internet (or rather are not allowed to be anywhere but in the internet).

  76. Kiza says:

    By all objective measures, the Turkish military is one of the most powerful in the World, perhaps the sixth conventional military power in the World (excluding nuclear weapons). But I am not sure what the Erdogan’s clean up/jailing of non-Islamist generals has done to the military morale. The Turks even believe that they own the US tactical nuclear bombs stored at their territory, which gives them an over-confidence of even a nuclear power.

    Therefore, the Turkish military would not be a pushover, but I doubt it could recreate the Ottoman Empire of AKP’s desire either. I think that Turkish lower and rural classes (the AKP voters) just love their opium too much, which produces these dream of imperial restoration. Perhaps, the Russians should consider starting to arming the Kurds.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Cyrano
    , @RadicalCenter
  77. Boris N says:

    I cannot say if it is effective as I am not an everyman from the West, but for me it looks childish. I am not sure such cartoons make any difference, compared to the overwhelming anti-Russian information noise. Because most Westerners either do not care about Russia at all or, if asked, can repeat something from the media, but did not think much about it; and those who care are highly negative towards Russia and they openly call RT “propaganda”. Only a few really believe that there is “something” in what the Russkies say.

  78. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Who exactly are we occuyping? If your implying we’re occuyping kurds land then you are wrong. Have a look at old Ottoman maps, their region consists of a small piece of land that stretches from Hakkari around lake Van. The only reason they are living in that land is because of the Ottoman/Safevi wars. After winning the Sultan placed them there as a buffer, they are not Native to south east Turkey !!!!!!! And another bit of information Safevis were Turkmens !!!!! The entire south east was Majority Turkmen before the war….that’s why you have so many Turks living in Iran.

    If your talking about occupying Greek/Armenian land? Then too fucking bad they should have better defended themselves a 1000 years ago. Is America going to give back all of North America to native indians and move the fuck out?

    Lastly fuck AKP not everyone likes them.

  79. Boris N says:

    I do not know why you have twisted my words and my thoughts in such an ugly way, so a better option for me would be to ignore your trolling and you altogether but I will answer, as I believe there may be just a misunderstanding. You argue if a person says something about the future then he desires it. It is like if I say tomorrow will be a storm which may or will destroy my house, I want it.

    No, I do not want any bad for Russia, I simply do not want bad for myself, do you consider myself so stupid? What I say is not my desires but what is actually happening, Russia is slowly and inevitably shattering, and Putin and the Russian elite have been doing everything for that result for the past 15 years. They simply did nothing, but rolled in oil money. And when the trouble had come in 2014 they did as well hardly anything but betrayed Russian people, because they value their “very good business” with their Ukrainian and Western “dear partners” more. And even if the current situation may not be so disastrous, but it is obviously worsening, and nobody knows what a disaster may happen if not in 2018 but in 2024. And nobody know how low the life of the common Russians may fall by that time, as there is a Russian saying “while the fat will be withering, the lean will have kicked the bucket”. And I do not want that just because the Kremlin and Russian oligarchs have their own political greedy agenda and prefer the interests of their “dear partners”, and I openly say so.

    And by the way your labeling detector failed, I’m not a “Russian pro-Western Liberal”. I do not like to put on myself labels, but if somebody is asked what my political opinions look like, they’ll say that I am a militant Russophile (literally people said this to me). And about economics I am more of socialist, that practically, if put together, I am, yes, a Russian national-socialist, or, as some stupid persons without brains would say, “nazi” or “fascist”.

    And there is a logical failure in your words. If I say that Putin is a Western puppet and I am against Putin how can I be pro-Western? Your accusations are ridiculous.

  80. Boris N says:

    I’ve nearly started to write my answer to you in Russian, but then I realized that you most probably do not know a word in Russian and non-English comments may be forbidden here, so I’ll continue to write in English. Anyway you may again claim that I do not know Russian but use an on-line translator.

    If you sometimes make use of that substance that is in your head, you might stop putting such ridiculous accusations on the commenters with whom you are disagree. Because with a similar success, I could claim that all commenters who claim to live in the West are in fact secret agents and trolls of North Korea, just because you all are constantly whining and complaining about your “poor” life in the West, how you are badly “oppressed” there, and how the West will fall, and your whining looks ridiculous. I invite you to go to live in Putin’s paradise, somewhere in the Russian hinterland.

    • Replies: @Avery
  81. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The second subquestion is why are the Turks hated to this day.

    It's more than just that. After they were forced to leave at the point of a gun what did they leave behind? Nothing but stunted economies, deformed cultures and mass illiteracy. People in the west were advancing and developing while those under the Turks were held behind and had backwardness forced upon them, a legacy that endures to this day.

  82. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Well said……every WORD OF IT….Being aTurkish born and Loves his Country…..Erdogan is destroying the Nation,Honor and Integrety of being a Nation… for Me…..He is sick in the HEAD,,,,,,and does not even know it…..PERIOD……..

  83. Talha says:

    And that was exactly my point – if an invading force had a tough time in Iraq, good luck with Turkey. And yes, a new Ottoman caliphate is indeed a pipe dream – they best they can hope for is a European Union style cooperative between the nations of the Middle East – in my opinion.

    No need to arm the Kurds, they already have a demographic bombshell as Avery pointed out. If ethnic Turks have drunk too much of the post-modern koolaid to be bothered to have kids, they will be replaced just like everyone else that’s addicted.


  84. L.K says:

    Saker goes:

    “Sadly, I don’t see that as very likely because, just as in the case of the Ukraine and Israel, the problem with Turkey is that this an artificial, illegitimate and fundamentally unsustainable country.”

    This is a typical idiotic false analogy by the saker. To compare the artificiality of Israel, created post WWII, at a time when invasion and ethnic cleansing had been forbidden, with the many centuries old formation of what has now become modern Turkey, is simply crass disinformation at its worst.

    If Turkey is to be considered artificial and illegitimate, then a LOT of other countries would have to b considered artificial and illegitimate as well, including the Russian Federation.
    Saker, how did Russia become so huge again? Conquest, annexation, and exploration, maybe?

    Regarding the “israelis”, it should be noted that before the advent o f zionism late in the 19th century, there were almost no Jews in Palestine, the population was almost entirely palestinian Moslems and Christians.
    The “Turks” from Turkey are, on the other hand, mostly Anatolians who were ‘turkified’. Modern Genetics has proven this beyond a doubt.
    As often, the saker proves to be little more than a poorly researched, biased polemicist.

    • Replies: @Talha
  85. L.K says:


    “Do they want an impossible mono-ethnic Turkey or can they accept that others not only live there too, but also that these “others” lived in these lands long before the Turkic nomads invaded them?”

    Before channeling the sad Armenian liar and hysteric, avery, the saker should get the basics right, which he has not. Saker, google can be your friend, ya know?

    “…According toAmerican Journal of Physical Anthropology(2008) Today’s Turkish people are more closely related with the Balkan populations than to theCentral Asian populations,[140][141] and a study looking into allele frequencies suggested that there was a lack of genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks, despite the historical relationship of their languages (The Turks and Germans were equally distant to all three Mongolian populations).[142] Multiple studies suggested an elite cultural dominance-drivenlinguistic replacement model to explain the adoption of Turkish language by Anatolian indigenous inhabitants.[134]k[›][138] A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-erapopulation, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site ofSagalassos, found that the samples had close genetic affinity with modern Turkish and Balkan populations.[143] During their research on leukemia, a group of Armenian scientists observed high genetic matching between Turks, Kurds, and Armenians.[144]…”

    That last bit is sure to raise the ire of chauvinist Armenians, like Avery.
    The “Turks” are your cousins, Avery, hahahahhahahahahha

    • Replies: @Kiza
  86. L.K says:

    Last but not least, it should be noted that the turks are US assets, not the other way around.

    To the degree that there is Turkish Imperialism under neo-sultan Erdogan, it is enabled by Zamerican Imperialism in the region.

    The whole mess started with the fraudulent and zionist inspired war on terror, in 01.

    Recently in Syria, in the past months up until now, ZUSA has been blocking Russia and Syria from attacking al-Ciada(nusra) and its various allies in many parts of Aleppo province, near Turkey.

  87. Talha says:

    Hey LK,

    To add to what you are saying, the wombs that bore many of the Ottoman sultans (and the upper crust in general) were often Greek, Venetian, Georgian, Circassian, Albanian, etc. Whether as queen consorts or concubines (umm walad). The Ottomans can be considered ‘White’ Europeans/Anatolians for the most part.

    Take a look at Sultan Suleiman (ra):

    He looks nothing like a central Asian steppe chieftain (looks scott-irish to me). And you can trace his line down and look at the background of each of the mothers of the successive sultans to see what I am talking about.

    Mameluke elite were often the same.


  88. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Boris N

    The Saker is such a Russian cheerleader and hates the AgloZionist so much that he makes his home in Florida USA with a huge AngloZionist population instead of living in Russia. Tells ya all you need to know about The Faker . Happy 4th of [[[ Jew-Lie ]]] !!!!!! The Fakers favorite holiday.

  89. Cyrano says:

    I think you’re delusional. Turkey a great power? Ha, ha. Remember the Balkan wars – specifically the 1st one? The three Balkan “powers” with combined population of less than half of Turkey population routed them in mere months. Nobody saw that coming. The western powers were predicting that Turkey – aka the Ottoman empire will squash the Balkan states with ease.

    Some even say that the Armenian genocide which came 3 years later was a payback for the Christians of Europe kicking Turkey’s butt in the Balkan wars.

    The situation hasn’t changed much these days. The 3, ok, make that 4 (although the 4th one – Montenegro doesn’t count for much) Balkan “powers” still have combined population of less than half than that of Turkey. Even though they can’t see eye to eye on any issue between themselves – when it comes to Turkey – I won’t be surprised if they unite in a blink of an eye. That’s how deeply the passions against their former tormentors run. And if I had to predict an outcome – I would say repeat of the 1st Balkan war. The fact that except Serbia the rest of them are NATO members wouldn’t even come under consideration.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  90. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I am not aware of either Iran, or Indonesia, or Pakistan, or even Spain having committed Genocide against their indigenous populations: are you?

    Indonesia invaded Papua in 1963 . Since that time they have illegally occupied the western half of Papua and committed genocide and mass rape until this day . There have been 500,000 Papuans killed during the illegal Indonesian occupation continuing to the present day .

    Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1976 and committed genocide on the Timorese people . Over 300,000 were killed and the Island was occupied illegal until the 2002 independence .

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Anonymous
  91. Kiza says:

    I would not call you dillusional but your idea that the Macedonans for example could unite with the Greeks or Serbians to fight the Turks has that compete loss-of-touch flavour with a tinge of chest beating. These are the same Macedonians who are sucking Albanan warts and praying to papa-US to spare them from the Serbian fate (which papa does for now, but will deliver them to the Albanians in the medium term).

    Every now and then some chest beater from the Balkans appears here at unz and then disappears. This zine is not for that kind.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @Cyrano
  92. Cyrano says:

    What’s this zine for? For glorifying Turkey? Not even their own population has respect for them. If anybody benefits from papa-US it’s Turkey. If it wasn’t for them, you wouldn’t even exist as a country let alone beg to join EU. Sweet dreams on that one too, by the way.

  93. Talha says:

    Hey Avery,

    I took Persian history as an elective at UCLA. Persia has been quite behaved the last few centuries so one can be forgiven in thinking the achievement of its ethno-linguistic super-majority was a benign enterprise; likewise her historical relationship with her neighbors – hint, there is a reason why the national languages of both Pakistan and India extensively borrow from Persian above any other language. The fact that she is Shia when she was historically Sunni (Shafi’i school) is also a result of less than benign policies – look up Safavids if you doubt this.


    • Replies: @Talha
    , @jack shindo
  94. Talha says:

    When I said behaved in the last few centuries, I meant generally on the external front – they did a lot of losing territory rather than gaining. But internally, the establishment of the Persian Qajars was as brutal or more than Tsar Ivan’s consolidation of power.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  95. tbraton says:

    I found discussion of the various plans for disposal of Constantinople (Istanbul) following the end of WWI in “Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World” (pub. in hardback in 2001, paperback in 2003) by Margaret MacMillan, great granddaughter of David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of GB at the end of WWI. At pp. 371-376 of the paperback, there is detailed discussion of the various plans advanced by the different parties. In 1916 at one of the conferences among the allies Britain, France and Russia to discuss the future of the Ottoman Empire, Russia was promised that it could annex Constantinople and the straits, but the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia’s withdrawal from the war pretty much ended those plans. After the war ended in November 1918, the Greeks agitated for control of Thrace and Constantinople. (Another book, a concise history of Greece, refers to Greek plans to take over the Turkish parts of Thrace up to the outskirts of Constantinople with international control (League of Nations or U.S.) of the City.) There was also talk about France taking over the City and the straits, but British suspicion of the French put a quick end to that. Britain toyed with the idea of the U.S. as the controlling power in the straits, but the Americans were not interested. The rise of Ataturk to power after he defeated the Greek invasion through Smyrna in 1922 put an end to all the talk. But it looks like Britain was calling the shots when it counted and Constantinople was susceptible to easy conquest.

    As far as “the Great Game” between Russia and GB, I believe it technically came to an end when the Brits and the Russians and the French entered into their Grand Entente or Alliance in 1907, although, as you point out, British animosity toward Russia seems to continue to this day.

    • Agree: Kiza
  96. Parbes says:

    “First off it’s called Alevi not Alawite”

    “Alevi” may be the Turkish-language spelling of it, but “Alawite” is the English-language spelling. Are you really so dumb that you are not aware that country, nation, place, ethnic or religious group, etc. names are frequently spelled slightly differently in different languages? This is an English-language website, idiot!

    “Secondly the Majority of Alevis are Turkmens”

    Not quite true – Alawites in Turkey are approximately evenly divided between those of Turkic ethnic origin and those of Kurdish ethnic origin. The far more important thing about Alawites in today’s Sunni Islamist-dominated Turkey, though, is that BOTH those of Turkic AND those of Kurdish origin are looked askance at, hated, oppressed, attacked, and discriminated against, simply BECAUSE of being Alawites and, therefore, different from Sunnis in tradition and practice, more moderate and secular-minded, naturally opposed to Sunni Islamism, etc. Why don’t you even mention that, you frothing-at-the-mouth Turkish ultranationalist maniac?

    “Avery” may be an emotionally intemperate Armenian nationalist with an impetuous childlike mind and mediocre IQ; but with your maniacally hyperaggressive answer here, you show yourself to be the real animal, and ironically confirm the generalizations Avery and others make about Turks.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @RadicalCenter
  97. bluedog says:

    Sure hope the Turks fight better then they did in Korea where they threw everything away and ran for their lives to hell with those that depended upon them,perhaps that’s where “never trust a Turk” came from.!!!.!!!

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    , @L.K
  98. Cyrano says:

    You are not only divorced from reality, but even fantasy refuses to have an affair with you. That’s how far gone you are. Take you BS comments elsewhere, you expert on Turkish affairs.

  99. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    They were just being smart.

    Why should they give their lives for Koreans?

  100. Art says:

    1) Crisis in Syria: the Turkish policy of support for Daesh to overthrow Assad has failed. Abjectly so. Not only is Assad still in power, but the latest bombing in Turkey seem to indicated that Daesh is turning against Turkey now (assuming the official explanations is true, which it might not be as we will discuss below). The entire Syria policy of Erdogan is now in shambles.

    Clearly the Israel/US strategy of letting Turkey benefit from ISIS is in a shambles. For two years they let ISIS foreign fighter go one way, and ISIS oil the other. How many good innocent people have died because of that.

    When it comes to Zionist Jew interests, everything that happens always leads to death for those innocent folks in the way of a greater Israel.

    When he OK’ed Israel – Harry Truman made one of the greatest most costly errors that any US president has ever made.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Kiza
  101. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Carter and his love affair with the peaceful Ayatollah with the eyes of a gazelle and the flushing of the Shah down the toilet ??

    • Replies: @Art
  102. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Bring back the Sufi’s who Ataturk murdered the bastard.

  103. Art says:

    Carter and his love affair with the peaceful Ayatollah with the eyes of a gazelle and the flushing of the Shah down the toilet ??

    Hmm — Why – what wars did that start?

  104. Avery says:

    I stand corrected regarding Indonesia: I should have known better.

  105. Avery says:
    @Boris N

    {Anyway you may again claim that I do not know Russian but use an on-line translator.}

    Anyway, please, pretty please, show me _exactly_ in which of my posts I claimed you do not know Russian “but use an on-line translator”.
    If, you can’t, and I know you can’t because I never wrote that, then promptly apologize for falsely accusing me.

    {If you sometimes make use of that substance that is in your head, ..}

    Maybe you should use that substance that is in your head – if there is any – to remember things, before you falsely accuse other posters of writing things they never did.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Boris N
  106. Avery says:

    {Filthy Armenian animal.}

    You filthy invadonomad Uyguroğlu savage pig.
    Take your filthy nomad kin, strike down your nomad yurts, and go back to your homeland in Uyguristan.
    Your “black” and “white” sheep flocks need you.
    They miss the sex, you vile pig.

    Get out of our lands you filthy Turk swine.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  107. Kiza says:

    How ISIS may have turned on their Turkish enablers, they may turn one day against their Israeli benefactors. I have been saying this from the beginning of the Syrian war – Israel has been playing the most dangerous game of stroking Muslim sectarianism.

    Then, could you even imagine the size of the “aid package” and the amount of US blood to be spent on this new ME reality when it happens. But, as long as they own the two Jersey cows, US and EU, Israelis can create as much chaos in the ME as they feel like. And ISIS are not dumb to bite the hand which (indirectly, through CIA) feeds them right now.

    Ah that relaxing feeling of impunity, that you can do whatever you like but some young, dumb US f*ck will die to save you from yourself, just for a missly government scholarship.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Art
  108. Kiza says:

    Hey Avery, keep it down mate. Let the Turkmen play at their level and do not stoop down to theirs. You are just diminishing yourself and your nation by playing the game on their terms. When the level is not right, ignore rather than retort. Most people here are quite smart and just ignore tendencious idiocies.

  109. Kiza says:

    You got to be kidding! Straight out of a scientific journal and into convenient history. Have you ever heard of scientific cross-checking or politicised science? Sometimes in science it takes several generations to establish the truth.

    There is no doubt that the Turks, once they conquered the Byzantine empire mixed with the conquered population. To turn this into another scientific or historic dogma is worth your


    I also find it laughable that one of the stupid unz editors endorsed your comment, I have a fair guess who this may be. Like every place of knowledge and learning (Academia), also consists of some rotten careerists and some brilliant thinkers. It is really sad that some editors are such cheap partisan garbage, but this still does not diminish the value of the zine. We have to take the bad with all the good.

    • Replies: @L.K
  110. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It’s Alevi and there is a difference they are not the same. I am telling you this as a Turkmen Alevi.

    Just shut the fuck up ok? Alwaites are arab and there is not that many of them in Turkey.

    Alawites/Suryani/Nusayri –> Arabs
    Alevi –> Turkmens & Kurds

    • Replies: @Parbes
  111. Cyrano says:

    This zine is not for that kind.

    My kind is good. What kind are you, you filthy dog?

  112. grapesoda says:

    Speaking of Russia… Saw where the typically apolitical Dmitry Orlov comes within a hair’s breadth of endorsing Trump for President.

    “And so they need to be fired. If this is to be done by voting (as opposed to, say, from a cannon) then the object of voting is to elect somebody who is, first and foremost, capable of firing these elites. The British seem to have done this; now it is the Americans’ turn. A somewhat thoughtful question that is sometimes asked (after people are done making spurious claims that Donald Trump is insane, a misogynist, a racist, a fascist, a bad businessman, generally not very nice or whatever else) is whether he is qualified to govern. To my mind, this question reduces to a much simpler question: Is he qualified to fire people? And the answer is, Yes, he most certainly is qualified to fire people. In fact “You’re fired!” is one of his trademark utterances. In fact, he just recently fired his very own campaign manager. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, heads up the entire cohort of people that need to be fired. And that is why I think there is a good chance that the “little people” will finally rise up and vote for somebody who will do just that.”

    Well I’ll be danged…

  113. Parbes says:

    It doesn’t matter what the naming particularities are in the Turkish language; in the English language the general umbrella term for all of them is “Alawite”. So “Avery” was completely within his rights in using “Alawite”, since he is writing in ENGLISH on an ENGLISH-LANGUAGE blog. Are you so dense that you really can’t comprehend this?

  114. Macreau says:

    You are sooooo wrong. Most stable nations have not done forced assimilation. I do not know what planet you live on but take a look at Switzerland. There are four distinct cultures, four distinct languages and one nation..They speak French, German, Italian,and Romanch…Same in Belgium, it has two distinct societies and yet one Belgium…It seems that you have neo-Nazi leanings…so sad …

  115. Ah, you were doing so well until you had to insert your delusions about Ukraine and Israel. There’s nothing artificial about Ukraine or Israel. I realize it might be convenient to Russia to bury the history of Ukraine, but the truth always comes out. The country that is artificial is Russia. It’s an empire which is always unstable, and it will break apart even more than the USSR did. Putinist Russia will fall apart because of the stupidity of Russia’s rulers.

    If you weren’t so afraid of the Putinist regime, you might do better to go back to your homeland.

    • Replies: @L.K
  116. L.K says:


    You have that uncanny ability to make both great comments and extraordinarily stupid ones.

    The point of my post was to demonstrate through the results of modern genetic studies – the above is just a small sample – that the “Turks” from Turkey are, for the most part, turkified indigenous Anatolians.
    I’m gonna draw it for you; this means they are, generally speaking, the indigenous population of the area, not some central Asian transplants.

    When the arab armies conquered Palestine, they did NOT replace the indigenous population, which became “arabicized” in terms of language and also largely converted to Islam.
    The Bosniaks are a south Slavic population which adopted Islam following the Turkish conquest, as did most Albanians. These European peoples did not adopt the language but did convert into Islam. From time to time I see idiots claim that Bosniaks and Albanians are ‘Turks”, that they are not Europeans, etc, all nonsense.

    Re Turkification in Anatolia:

    Turkic pastoralists remained only a small minority, however, and the gradual Turkification of Anatolia was due less to in-migration than to the conversion of many Christians to Islam, and their adoption of the Turkish language. The reasons for this conversion were first, the weak hold Greek culture had on much of the population, and second, the desire by the conquered population to “retain its property or else to avoid being at a disadvantage in other ways.”[12] One mark of the progress of Turkification was that by the 1330s, place names in Anatolia had changed from Greek to Turkish.[13]

    Now, given your hysterical reaction to my post, I take you do not accept the results of the various studies conducted by many scientists of various ethnicities, you even refer to ‘politicised science’.

    Of course, you offered ZERO evidence in support of such a notion, of such a scientific fraud.

    Given the varied national backgrounds of the many researchers, it is hard to see what the point of this would be.
    At any rate, it is up to you to prove the research is fraudulent, that this is ‘politicised science’.
    The notion is ridiculous and I don’t believe you can.

    Kiza goes ballistic:

    I also find it laughable that one of the stupid unz editors endorsed your comment, I have a fair guess who this may be.

    I have no idea either but I remember Mr.Unz himself once posting a comment broadly in agreement with what I’ve said.

    But look here Kiza, reading your comments, it is clear to me you hate Turkey and you r very biased against them. From what I remember you are originally from the Balkans – Serbia? – so I get it.

    Me, I am not involved and I don’t care for your hatreds and petty chauvinism. Not that of Turks, Armenians, Serbs, Greeks, etc.

    To me what matters is accuracy, exactitude and truth.

    Wanna make a case against Turkey, try doing so from a position of honesty.
    There is more than enough to make a case against the Erdogan regime. No need to try to deligitimize a State and a People through cheap, biased propaganda.

  117. L.K says:

    Israel is 100% artificial, created through terrorism, illegal wars and ethnic cleansing.
    The “israelis’ are recent transplants into Palestine, not the indigenous people.

    The Ukraine, as it was set up after the fall of the USSR, had a degree of artificiality, since areas populated by ethnic Russians or russified people were included.

    Given the closeness of both populations in terms of biology, language, history, etc, this should not present such a big problem, but unfortunately there are also some historical grudges.
    These have been ruthlessly exploited by ZUSA and the neocons to conduct the coup and create the present crisis in the region.
    The Ukrainians must resist being used as useful idiots by the neocons and their oligarchic agents.

    In regards to Russia, it certainly is the heir of an Empire, but it lost most of its clearly non-Russian regions when the Soviet Empire dissolved.
    If it plays its cards right, I think it can hold together. Time will tell.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  118. L.K says:

    bluedog, you are making things up.
    In an article for Military History magazine, A.K. Starbuck wrote at the end:

    The Turks acquitted themselves in a brave and noble fashion in some of the worst conditions experienced in the Korean War. Very little else could have been required or expected of them. Their heavy casualties speak of their honor and commitment. Their bravery requires no embellishment. It stands on its own.

    • Replies: @Macreau
  119. Marcus says:

    Well, the Crimea being part of Ukraine didn’t make much sense, it was arbitrarily added by Khrushchev.

  120. To LK (OT):

    “The Ukrainians must resist being used as useful idiots by the neocons and their oligarchic agents.”

    Oh, and Russians should resist the urge to call Ukrainians their “little brothers” or “malorusi”. At first it sounds funny but after a while it just gets annoying.

    And if you insist that Ukraine should be officially split apart – while it makes some sense but then the big question would be who the heck are the people of Donbas internationally – just remember that Ukraine was also promised something that appeared like guarantees of security and intact-ness, when it made all those compromises with Russia and the West, such as give up its nuclear arsenal. Now it turns out that the West lied (and Russia just maybe waited). It’s called “kinut’” in Russian – a very lame thing to do – something between cheating, manipulating and outright not observing the contract. So, yea, “useful idiots” indeed.

  121. Marcus – much can be discussed over that, but if one chooses to go down that route, all sorts of inconvenient things will creep up, such as – that Karelia shouldn’t be Russian by that same logic, etc. Do we really need that… my point was – if you’re gonna do this to Ukrainians, then by the same token, it should be ok to do that to other nations too, like, Spain, Turkey as in this article, Russia, the US, the UK and probably many more.

  122. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Guests totally overlook the fact that US pulled a coup in Ukraine.

  123. Oh, and I wouldn’t bring up Crimea under this topic because of who it has historically belonged to for the longest chunk of time.

  124. @Anonymous

    I’d take more pleasure in the Kurds slowly taking over in Turkey by out-breeding the Turks, if the Mexicans weren’t doing the same thing to us here in the USA.

  125. @Anonymous

    Nonsense. There are probably as many Kurds in Iran (perhaps ten percent of Iran’s population) as there are “Azerbaijani Turks” in Iran.

  126. @Bolek

    Just about any African country is even more incompetent than Ukraine, both in the past and now.

  127. @Kiza

    Yes, both the USA and Russia should heavily arm and aid the Kurds, on the condition that they attack only Turks inside Turkey and not operate in other countries.

  128. @Talha

    It’s safe to assume that any nation with a sizeable population and territory, got to that point at least in part through armed conquest, and often through cruel and savage tactics aimed at eradicating or enslaving all members of a competing race or ethny. This is true of China, Russia, the USA, Turkey, Iran, etc.

    • Replies: @Talha
  129. @Avery

    Doesn’t Tuvarisch mean “comrade”? Just curious, do Russians still use that term positively, or is it considered peculiar to the Soviet era?

  130. @Kiza

    It’s “measly”, but you’re right.

  131. @Macreau

    The ethnic groups who share Switzerland — very much intermarried for a long time, anyway — are all white Europeans genetically and culturally, united by values and languages that are, in the scheme of the world, very similar and compatible. Same is true of Belgium. They’re also tiny countries.

    Are there any countries with sizeable population and territory where such an arrangement has worked for a long period of time?

    Any countries where such an arrangement has lasted peacefully and productively, long-term, between peoples of different races?

    Any countries where such an arrangement has lasted peacefully and productively, long-term, between peoples of different religions?

    • Replies: @Macreau
  132. Talha says:

    It’s sad but true – question is how do we deal with the cards that have been dealt to us.


  133. RadCenter, “tavarisch” is only used officially in the army or the Militsia (as far as I know), but in everyday life it just means “friend” or “buddy” now.

    And speaking of Belgium being bi-cultural. The two parts (French and Flemish) are separated. Brussels is a kind of an internationalized French speaking center, but the French speakers and Germanics live separately, in their own towns.

  134. Macreau says:

    As somebody who has done his university studies in Switzerland and lived there many years I can say that you are wrong again. You claim that their languages are compatible…maybe for only French and Italian and Romansh languages but German language has nothing to do with French and Italian that are Latin based. Again French spoken in Belgium is Latin based, Dutch spoken not so.
    You talk about intermarriage as if it is very common . Certainly there are those but nothing like what you claim that it would form the basis of Swiss Confederation.

    You have three questions . Actually one answer fits them all. Whatever you have in mind when you say sizable country, different populations…Well those countries never went thru the maturation of Europeans, thus, they will never be what Swiss, Belgians are.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  135. Macreau says:

    This is a total bull…..t…..Turks died because they think of themselves as invincible. Here is a fact:

    Turks were on top of a hill called “KUNURI” ( you will not read this anywhere else) surrounded by 10,000 Chinese. The UN headquarters had learned that Chinese were going to encircle this hill, US commander gave the order to retreat , but noooo Turkish general Tahsin Yazici , not obeying orders from HQ, said “turks never retreat”…there was blood bath. Turks lost 2-3 thousand men on that hill. This idiot general Tahsin Yazici was recalled immediately and he was never heard again….The stupidity of Yazici is not honor and commitment

    • Replies: @Talha
  136. Talha says:

    Hey Marceau,

    With all due respect, you’re talking apples and oranges. You are criticizing for ineptitude, which may be well founded, but LK was responding to a charge of cowardice against the Turkish contingent – not the same.


  137. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Because of the fragmentation of Syria, Israel will move inexorably to annex the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Russia and Turkey will likely acquiesce. Russia will do so because it needs Israeli support on a host of issues. Turkey’s major geopolitical concern is not Gaza, the West Bank, or the Golan Heights but its dealings with Israel over oil, gas, avionics, missiles, nuclear programs, trade, and tourism. Israel can supply a host of weapon systems, research, and intelligence to Turkey in its fight against Kurdish nationalist movements that the U.S. might not want to supply. And Israel will accept Turkey’s emerging position in northern Syria and its war against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) and the Democratic Union Party (PYD) along with its armed force, the People’s Protective Units (YPG).

    For Turkey and Israel to achieve their geopolitical goals, however, they need to work with Russia. Israel and Russia have already agreed on some of the larger parameters of the war in Syria. So have Turkey and Israel. And now Turkey and Russia are about to agree. By the time Erdogan and Putin meet in September most of the remaining salient issues should be addressed satisfactorily, if not resolved.

    The emerging trilateral relationship among Turkey, Israel, and Russia cannot be consummated fully until the complete military defeat of IS and the further fragmentation of Syria. This should take place some time in 2017. By that time Erdogan and his party should have achieved their referendum on the presidential system, disenfranchised the MPs from the Peoples’ Democratic Party, and started a campaign for a new election. As a result of these developments, Turkey will likely be ready to assume an even large role in northern Syria.”

    Robert Olson of University of Kentucky

    Saker may want to revisit his article in 2017 or by Nov 2016

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  138. @Talha

    When Umayyad lost control, it heralded a movmenet where non Arabs (Turks, Persians and North Africans aka mawali) could assert their reign of control while still being in the fold and that resulted in the various tribal groups vying under the Sunni/Shi’a banner and others ‘orthodox’ understandings as they perceived as opposed to the long held version of birthright and closeness to the Prophet as the inheritor of orthodoxy.

    There was even a time when Farsi and Arabic held their own against the other in the use of poetry and intellectual contests!

  139. @Anonymous

    The emerging trilateral relationship among Turkey, Israel, and Russia cannot be consummated fully until the complete military defeat of IS and the further fragmentation of Syria.

    What about Assad? He will never agree to fragmentation of Syria. I also do not see how Russia or Turkey would benefit from such development. The only beneficiary would be Israel. In my opinion the rapprochement between Russia and Turkey is the equivalent of shotgun marriage. Both countries have painted themselves into a corner and were looking for ways to escape. Will it last? I don’t know. Based on historical record probably not. I cannot see how they can reconcile their diverging interests in a long run. Like I said before in one of the comments on this subject, the players are many, each pursuing his own interests and to predict the end result is next to impossible. The only thing one can be reasonably sure with in the short term is the continuation of mayhem in that part of the world with a real possibility of it spreading into an even wider and wider area. It is easy to start a fire but not as easy to extinguish it.

  140. @Macreau

    Dude, I speak and read German fairly well _ though not as well as you write in English — and of course I was referring to the extreme closeness of French and Italian.

    In any event, isn’t the German language far closer to French than, say, Mandarin or Hindi, the most widely-spoken languages in the world?

    Romansch isn’t spoken by any meaningful
    Number of people, so that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s insignificant.

  141. Sam J. says:

    Kiza says,”…the Russians have another saying: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me…”

    I believe it was Gomer Pyle that said that.

  142. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    One must not discount the still unclarified massacres fallen to the cold war’s 1965-1967 Indonesia slow motion regime change; estimates vary between 500thousand to 1,500thousand (with another source numbered 3mill).

    • Replies: @anon
  143. Art says:

    No question – ISIS is an Israeli/Saudi false flag operation. At the right time its leaders (that are true believers) will be murdered – the very top given Swiss bank accounts.

  144. Boris N says:

    A very weak rebuttal for a troll. Making a clear assumption but then acting like nothing was said. Whom you think to trick? Don’t be silly. We are not in a Kindergarten and I do not play such cheap child games. You said, I cite, “The correct handle for the anti-Russian shape-shifter posing as a Russian would be“, then you made a list of supposedly Turkish names, ending in N, and thus alleging me. Or was there something else here? Or whom you imply while saying about “the anti-Russian shape-shifter posing as a Russian“? Maybe you meant the President of Russia?

    • Replies: @Avery
  145. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Yes , I agree .
    I was just giving enough to prove the point. I was considering adding the anti-Chinese rape/mass murder riots of 1998 and also the other anti-Chinese rape/mass murder riots that have occurred thru the years in Indonesia .

  146. Avery says:
    @Boris N

    {A very weak rebuttal for a troll..}

    Not only you are the real troll, but you are a liar.
    Below is a re-repast from post above:

    [Anyway, please, pretty please, show me _exactly_ in which of my posts I claimed you do not know Russian “but use an on-line translator”.
    If, you can’t, and I know you can’t because I never wrote that, then promptly apologize for falsely accusing me. Товарищ.]

    You lied that I wrote ….you do not know Russian “but use an on-line translator”.
    Caught in a lie, now you are desperately trying to deflect.
    Won’t work, Товарищ.

    {Or whom you imply while saying about “the anti-Russian shape-shifter posing as a Russian“?}

    I meant you.

  147. @Macreau

    weak concern trolling

    Look up the ethnic cleansing carried out by allied powers after WWII that provided the basis of a peaceful Europe.

    The UK is a perfect example of forced assimilation into a common cultural paradigm.
    Spain is an example of what happens when forced assimilation is not carried out (Catalonia)
    Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are examples of what happens when groups are not assimilated.

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