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Flight MH-17: One Year Later
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Over a year has passed since Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 was been shot out of the skies by somebody, but we still don’t know the truth and all sorts of hypotheses continue circulating on the Internet. In the West, the Emperor Barack decreed on the day after the actual shoot-down that the party responsible for this atrocity was, of course, the Novorussians. That is as predictable as it is irrelevant since not a shred of evidence has been presented by anybody in the West. In contrast, the Russians did provide quite a lot of evidence, but it was all immediately dismissed without further ado. Again, this is also as predictable as it is irrelevant. The undeniable fact is that the western narrative about the Ukraine absolutely mandates that either the Russians or the Novorussians shot down MH-17. Any other version is completely unacceptable and therefore shall never be considered, let alone accepted, by the western politicians and their corporate media.

But for the rest of the world the question remains open: who shot down MH-17 and how?

The first thing we know is that the Ukrainian traffic air controllers directed MH-17 to fly directly over the combat zone and to lower its altitude. We also know as a fact that there was at least one Ukrainian aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH-17 that day. This was confirmed both by Russian radar signals and by several local witnesses who saw at least one, possibly two, SU-25 aircraft in the air that day. Finally, we also know that Ukrainian air defense units were present in the area that day and that their radars were active. What nobody saw that day was the kind of large and highly visible smoke plume which would have accompanied any large missile launch, not did anybody hear anything special. There was apparently no missile launch, and yet the Ukrainian radars were active. Why?

I believe that MH-17 was shot down by a Ukrainian SU-25. Critics of this theory have pointed out that the SU-25 is a “close-air-support aircraft” which was designed to fly very low and to engage attacking armored columns, that it was never designed to fly very fast or very high, and the SU-25 does not have radar nor air-to-air missiles. Finally, the cockpit of the SU-25 is not pressurized which means that the pilot cannot fly over 7,000 meters in altitude. This is all quite true. But it also misses the point.

First, while it is true that the cabin of the SU-25 is not pressurized, all a pilot needs to do is use a mask to supply him with oxygen. The aircraft itself can easily fly well over the 7,000 meter limit. It is true that the speed of the aircraft is inadequate for intercepting a large civilian jet flying at its cruising speed. The SU-25 engines were never designed to fly high and while they can be made to bring the aircraft over 7,000 meters, they cannot develop enough speed in this rarefied atmosphere. But what the SU-25 can do is carry a R-60 infrared-guided missile. Not only does such a missile not require engagement radar, but its speed is over 3,000 kilometers per hour, far faster than any civilian airliner. The problem with the missile, however, is that its range is short, about 8,000 meters.

The SU-25 does not have radar capable of detecting a civilian airliner and guiding the SU-25 towards it. But the Buk missile radar battery definitely does. Since the course of the MH-17 was known well in advance, all the Ukrainians had to do was the keep one or two SU-25 loitering at low altitude under the air corridor which MH-17 would take and wait for the Buk missile operators to guide the best placed SU-25 towards the airliner at the appropriate moment. All the pilot would have to do when given the signal was to sharply climb towards MH-17 and get inside the missile’s flight envelope (in this case within less than 8 kilometers of MH-17) and then fire off his R-60 missile. At that point, the missile would guide itself towards the biggest heat source of the aircraft – one of the engines.

The R-60 is a rather small missile and it would never be able to destroy a large airliner like the Malaysia Airways Boeing 777. But the R-60 is more than capable of destroying one of the Boeing’s engines. At this point, the airliner would rapidly lose speed and enter into a sharp turn while the pilots would be trying to figure out what happened, extinguish a burning engine, and compensate for the increased drag. This is exactly what was observed on radar, by the way. The rapid loss of speed and altitude would make the Boeing easy prey for the SU-25 which has a powerful cannon on board which would then easily catch up and continue the attack with a volley of 30mm cannon fire. Having finished off its target, the SU-25 would then sharply turn and return to its base. This is exactly what the Russian radars saw.

One might wonder why the Ukrainians would use a close air support aircraft like the SU-25 instead of a dedicated interceptor like the SU-27 or a fighter like the MiG-29. Here again, the explanation is very simple: not only does the Ukraine have many more SU-25s than SU-27s or MiG-29s, but these latter planes would also be highly conspicuous to any witness. In contrast, the one (or, possibly two) SU-25s tasked with the destruction of MH-17 would be easy to conceal in the eastern Ukraine and on any airfield. It is precisely because the SU-25 would be an unlikely aircraft to be given such a mission that it is the perfect aircraft to execute what is a textbook example of a false flag attack.

As for the Buk, it is such a big and conspicuous missile system that it is impossible to hide. Furthermore, had such a missile been fired broad daylight, the launch would have been clearly seen for many miles around. However, as long as the Buk battery was merely guiding the SU-25 towards MH-17 nobody would have noticed it. Nobody except Russia, NATO and the US, of course.

As somebody who has personally monitored military and civilian air traffic over Europe, I can attest to the fact that several militaries in Europe are constantly monitoring the entire airspace between the Atlantic and the Urals. These militaries include the US and NATO. This is especially true for a battle zone. In fact, US and Russian AWACS aircraft are always present when a conflict occurs anywhere near Europe. They have been monitoring the war in the Persian Gulf, the war in Bosnia and Croatia, the war in Afghanistan and many other conflicts. Besides their AWACS, the Americans and Russians also use their space based satellites to monitor any conflict zone. Of course, neither side is willing to share all the detailed information it has, but the real problem here is political: the US won’t share anything at all because of the need to protect the regime in Kiev while anything the Russians would share will be immediately dismissed as “propaganda” (which is exactly what happened with the little the Russians did share).

I would add here that if had been the Novorussians who had shot down MH-17 the US could easily have proven it just as they had done with KAL-007 in 1983. In fact, in the 30 years which separate us from the shooting down of KAL-007 US intelligence capabilities have considerably improved, so I would expect the US could provide much more data than just radio intercepts. And yet the US has provided exactly nothing. There is only one logical explanation for the otherwise bizarre US refusal to provide any data at all: the US data points to the “wrong” party. In other words, the fact that the US has not released any data at all by itself indirectly proves that the Ukrainians did it.

As for the Ukrainians themselves they, of course, know exactly what happened and there is no need for them to “investigate” anything. So there is really nothing left to investigate. The Ukrainians did it and the West will never admit it.

End of story.

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  1. tom says:

    Think about this; how could there be any doubt that the Ukrainian terrorists that sent this civilian Airliner over the war zone, would actually hope and wait for this plane to be shot down by their enemies – the novorussians. Why run the risk of the plane NOT being shot down where you run the risk of then being exposed to the passengers criticism on demanding answers as to why they were sent through a war zone.

    If that happened, then the whole demonisation campaign against Russia would be working now against the Ukrainian fascists and oligarchs puppets of the US, and not against Russia.

    Simple as that.

    Running the risk of hoping the novorussian would shooting down a civilian plane is too big and too pathetic a risk. The evil US Empire is far less stupid than that.

    And when I say less stupid, I mean the CIA and not the idiotic US military

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  2. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    Jews have yet to admit the truth about USS Liberty.

  3. the CIA/Soros/ZionistOligarch puppet regime in Kiev has the ATC tapes. It has refused to release them, which says all. Probably best to think of MH17 as a minor variation on 9/11 by our murderous neo-con orchestrators of global chaos

  4. Some bits of inside information which seem incredible and mere credulous or malicious gossip (think of the POTUS’s irresponsible womanising circa 1962-3) turn out to be true. So it is not impossible that idiots in Kiev hatched the elaborate plan you suggest despite, on your own say-so the near certainty that someone would be able to detect the truth and publicise it even though Bradley/Chelsea Manning is in gaol and Julian Assange muzzled. (Gee the Russians might notice and feed some good stuff like CIA emails to Wikileaks!).

    And there have to be quite a lot of Ukrainian Air Force officers who are complicit in the deliberate murder of all those civilians from friendly countries and none letting out a word despite the high probability that they would have discussed it with Ukrainian Catholic or Orthodox priests or horrified wives or girlfriends (maybe now ex-). The idiot planners had to suppose it could be kept quiet despite all that. How many murders will you now tell us have been committed to keep it quiet?

    Unless you are one of those fantasists who believe in vast conspiracies being the rule whenever something important but not obvious happens it is surely difficult to believe that 24 investigators, led by the Dutch, from the Netherlands, Ukraine, USA, UK, Russia, Malaysia, Australia and Germany (that’s the Wikipedia version – I thought that there were three fewer countries without that being material to the point) can all be lined up to allow a line to be pushed to exonerate the actually guilty Ukrainians. We will be very sure of the truth when the Dutch led team report even if some elements remain to be inferred.

    Inferences drawn from non publication of the US and NATO data to date are surprisingly naive for one of the SAKER’s background. Hands up anyone who can’t think of at least six reasons why such material may be held close to the chest for now. Could Russia be treated as more clearly guilty and worthy of sanctions than it is now if the investigators had already delivered a verdict that it was a Russian manned BUK that accidentally brought down the MH17? And it’s not just revenge that is best served cold.

    Come to think of it a good reading of Wikipedia on the MH17 case might be of benefit to the SAKER if only so he knows what arguments he has to deal with. It is positively stated in Wikipedia that MH17 was not hit by a missile in an engine which makes the SAKER case in much greater need of proof.

    Still I commend your reckless courage SAKER. You have put your whole credit on the line with a bet that an array of investigators with access to the black boxes and damaged fuselage won’t consign you to the realm of the truthers.

    Don’t you want credibility greater than that of the sad “former CIA analyst” McGovern who was featured by one of the Russian propaganda outlets as confiding that the initial US claim that Russian backed rebels had shot down MH17 came not from the CIA but from a political source, namely the White House! Well, duh…. Will you be reduced to pay for fringe interview performances where they don’t know or don’t care that you are talking flatulent meaningless garbage like McGovern now?

    • Disagree: geokat62
    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @annamaria
    , @geokat62
  5. unit472 says:

    I imagine the Ukrainian military would like nothing more than to operate their air force ( such as it is) in support of their ground forces against the rebels. They haven’t though since the early days of the fighting when their helicopters and aircraft were being shot down with some frequency by so called ‘militia forces’.

    Now down in Syria, anti Assad militia groups have been unable to fend off Assad’s air force ( equipped with much of the same aircraft and helicopters as the Ukrainians possess) even after 4 plus years of war. They’ve captured a lot of Syrian military equipment but none of the formidable SAM and AAA that the Syrian armed forces possess. Syrian transport helicopters routinely fly just above small arms range over rebel positions and roll crude ‘barrel bombs’ onto rebel held territory. I just bet the Ukrainian military would love to be able to do that over Donetsk but they can’t because their helicopters would be shot down. It has only been since ISIS showed up with some limited anti air capability captured when they overran Iraqi Army stocks in Mosul that the rebels in Syria have had ANY capability to fend off air attacks and its not been enough to ground the Syrian air force and, of course, the Western air forces operate with impunity over ISIS held territory.

    Now given this 180 degree divergence in the anti air capability of two indigenous uprisings using only the equipment they can capture or smuggle into their strongholds it seems odd indeed that the Donetsk militias would have very effective anti aircraft defenses almost from day one while the Syrian rebels would have almost none 4 plus years into the war there. Logic would suggest that if the Syrian rebels still don’t have SAMs an AAA 4 years on, that the rebels in Ukraine would have anti air capability from the beginning is baffling unless an outside power was providing it.

    • Replies: @5371
    , @Seamus Padraig
    , @Alieu
  6. If this version of events is correct there may be physical evidence in the recovered wreckage of the aircraft. There might be signature missile damage to one of the engines or traces of cannon rounds. Are you aware of any such damage?
    The three countries suffering the greatest loss of life are the Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia. Two are close to the US and the other, not hostile. I think those countries would be interested in seeking the truth. The Dutch Safety Board’s report is expected in October.
    That journal of all that is true and verified, Wikipedia, says that the Russian manufacturer of the Buk thinks their weapon was responsible. What do you make of that evidence?

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  7. Tom Welsh says:

    A very convincing explanation, which leaves no loopholes or loose ends as far as I can see. This scenario explains all the facts as we know them, and is consistent with the aims and modus operandi of the various parties involved. Excellent work, Saker: thanks very much.

  8. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A round of applause for Putin’s useful idiot!

    You are no better than the effete whores working for US elites. That you propagandise for Russia out of spite makes you little better than those who do it for pay for either power.

    So, yeah. Fuck you, I say. And as someone whose country had been first destroyed by American interventionism, later betrayed by Brits and finally left to the commies, I have every right to express myself thusly.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @annamaria
  9. That all could have been (should have been) sorted within two weeks of MH 17’s downing:

    That one year on nothing has changed is no surprise to competent professional intelligence people. The only real disappointment (to yours truly) is the lack of courage, fortitude and ethics in those several western intelligence agencies where there are most certainly persons who are appalled at the deceitful direction the MH 17 controversy has taken but are too cowardly to step up and state the facts to the public in no uncertain terms –

  10. denk says:

    karl rove
    We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”

    hxnx birdflu, swineflu,
    asia boxing day tsunami,
    bali terror bombing,
    boko haram
    malaysian airasia airliner disaster,
    tianjin armaggedon
    thailand terror hit,
    shandong explosion

  11. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I have to agree with you. There is a place for conspiracies but not here. Why should Ukranian airforce pilots who as far as I know, have no enmity with Malaysians take it upon themselves to kill about 300 people on a clear day? The Ukranians bear responsibility for their recklessness in not closing the airspace over a war zone, but that is about the sum of it.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @Bill
  12. @tom

    If as has been said quite often Ukrainian air traffic control directed MH17 on its flight path over the Ukraine so what? What reason is there to suppose that this resulted from relevant express instructions from the Ukrainian government? Isn’t it entirely consistent with the presumably civilian air traffic control service pursuing the usual course of business which earns overflight fees for the Ukraine?

    • Replies: @Bill
  13. @Ronald Thomas West

    So are you willing to be as brave as The Saker and give us a version which puts your reputation on the line?

    And unless you have some conspiracy story to show how all the investigators are being intimidated or manipulated or corrupted are you going to accept that whatever they report will be prima facie credible?

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  14. @Ivan

    There is a place for conspiracies but not here

    Well, Ivan, I see you’re supporting the official line the professional troll WoO sets out. There are a few small problems with WoO’s ‘reasoning’ (lies.)

    1) There has been a witness to the event at odds with WoO’s ‘rationale’, directly pointing to the SU 25 shoot-down scenario; the problem seems to be he took refuge in Russia and no one in western press is going to give it any ink:

    And insofar as people speaking up in Ukraine on any subject at odds with the official agenda, well, the clear message from the regime in Kiev is ‘don’t dare do it’ if you’d like to stay alive:

    And then, it reaches a level of preposterous in relation to the Dutch attempting to conform the investigation result to western press (political) accounts, when the Dutch have to actually advertise for the non-existent witnesses to the alleged BUK missile launch, considering there have been plenty of video eye-witness accounts of that day, some seeing the second jet but none definitively (beyond a doubt) seeing a ground to air missile:


    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Ivan
  15. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “As for the Buk, it is such a big and conspicuous missile system that it is impossible to hide. Furthermore, had such a missile been fired broad daylight, the launch would have been clearly seen for many miles around. However, as long as the Buk battery was merely guiding the SU-25 towards MH-17 nobody would have noticed it. Nobody except Russia, NATO and the US, of course.”

    The above is an answer to your most strong argument against Kiev’ guilt re MH17.
    It is easy to accuse other people of naiveté, yet we do not see any supporting data from the US intel community, which would point towards Novorossians and thus towards Russia guilt. – Though, is not the presence of the US’ and Canadian “advisors” and “instructors” in Ukraine means that the US and Canada are responsible for Kiev’ atrocities in Odessa and Kiev’ goons killing out any representatives of visible opposition to Poroschenko&Yatz regime? The pro-US regime in Kiev has been employing neo-Nazis (even the US Congress had accepted that) and has been using intimidation and murder to silence opposition. Take a note that MSM is very shy to mention these casualties, whereas the spectacular (as if staged) murder of Nemtsov has been trumpeted by MSM as the doubtlessly Moscow crime for months.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  16. @Ronald Thomas West

    “The only real disappointment (to yours truly) is the lack of courage, fortitude and ethics in those several western intelligence agencies where there are most certainly persons who are appalled at the deceitful direction the MH 17 controversy has taken but are too cowardly to step up and state the facts to the public in no uncertain terms -“

    It’s not the function of the CIA to do that, nor is it what should be expected of them. Oh, I’m sure they know all about the event, but if anything our senior public politicians are to blame for not doing just what you said.

  17. @Wizard of Oz

    See my remarks to Ivan (and there’s plenty more)

  18. Biff says:

    Pan-am flight 800 – made sure you will never know
    Pan-am flight 103 – made sure you will never know
    MH-17 – made sure you will never know
    MH-370 – made sure you will never know

  19. Judging from other exchanges there are counter arguments against the details of Sakers presentation. The damage near the pilots does contain something looking like holes from automatic cannons, but also damage looking like it was caused by a missile. What kind of missile is the question. And was one of the engines, really damaged in the way expected from an R-60?
    One additional possibility in view of the absent proof of a BUK-launch which ought to have been clearly visible, is that the plane had been prepared in advance in such a way as to confuse every interpretation in terms of an external attack.
    The fact that a blogger like ‘Bellingcat’ is treated like the topanalyst defending the western narrative is difficult to explain away other than as an indication of the falsehood of that narrative.

  20. 5371 says:

    Your point? I have yet to hear from anyone at all who doesn’t recognise that Russia is fine with the DNR/LNR possessing anti-air capability.

    • Agree: Bill
  21. @unit472

    …it seems odd indeed that the Donetsk militias would have very effective anti aircraft defenses almost from day one while the Syrian rebels would have almost none 4 plus years into the war there.

    If any ZATO country is planning on bombing Syria in the future, then it’s no wonder they would be reluctant to give the jihadist groups fighting there decent SAM capabilities. If the jihadists were to turn on ZATO (or more likely, vice-versa) they could lose their own aircraft.

    • Replies: @Bill
  22. Realist says:

    Whose little troll are you?

  23. Flower says:

    Most Amerikans that I have talked to about this incident are very emotional about it. And they should be. Unfortunately, most of those same Amerikans know didley squat about how a SAM system works. Most Amerikans see a SAM system as a great big rifle and the missile itself as a big bullet that travels in a straight line. A straight line that was set at the moment the trigger was pulled. Sorry, SAMs don’t work that way. Most SAMs are radar guided and have the ability to maneuver and steer itself into a target. The SAM operator locates a target on his radar screen, chooses that target and tells the missile. After the SAM is launched, it can receive updated target info all the way to the point where it explodes and destroys the target. On board the missile is it’s own guidance system, also radar controlled, that does the final guidance of the missile to it’s target during the latter part of the flight. Now, due to the nature of radar, the guidance radar “sees” in 2 dimensions, which means that if two targets are close to one another (from the perspective of the guidance radar), with one target at 20,000 feet, and the other target at 30,000 feet, it cannot determine which one is closer. The onboard system also cannot determine which of the two targets is the original one, i.e. the target that the operator wanted shot down. So, which target does the onboard system choose? Well, in one sense, it is indeterminate. The missile guidance system has run across a very gray area for SAMs. But it has to choose one, that’s all it knows to do. So, which one does it choose? The biggest one, that is, the one with the largest radar echo. In a choice between a Mig 21 and a Boeing 757, which do you suppose has the largest radar signature?

    What most likely occurred on that day: The Russkie Air Force stationed a Mig 21 (or similar model) to picket duty along the Russia/Ukraine border. The pilot’s job is to observe, report, and to make sure the Ukraine war stays in Ukraine. A Ukrainian SAM site gets upset that this Russian pilot is doing lazy 8’s along his picket line, so they decide to send a missile up his 6. The Russian pilot is most likely at his max operational ceiling of 50,000 feet. I say this because commercial airplanes are not allowed to fly over 50,000 feet, and the Mig pilot would be wise to fly at this max altitude for 3 reasons: 1. maximum observability, 2. at that altitude, there would be nearly 0% chance of affecting, or being affected by, commercial traffic. But another reason is that in the case of somebody shooting a SAM at you, you can use all the airplanes that are below you in altitude as a screen.
    The moment the SAM site gets a lock on the Mig 21, the Russian pilot will get an alarm that a surface missile guidance radar has him locked, at which point, the pilot has about a minute left. One defensive maneuver is to get as far away as fast as possible. The SAM has limited range. Another defensive ploy is to find another plane and try to hide behind it, preferably a plane much bigger than a Mig 21. Like a Boeing 757.

    MH117 had just blundered into the wrong area at the wrong time. Which brings up the question nobody is asking: what kind of alcoholic, drug-addicted, will work for food morons does Malaysia Air hire as pilots? What the fark is this idiot doing flying 200 people over a war zone? Was this guy hung over? Had he been in a coma for 6 months? I can only imagine what would have resulted if that deadheaded MH117 pilot had, in fact, been driving a bus.

    Obviously, it is in Malaysia Air’s best interest to keep shouting “accident of war” as that precludes a lot of lawsuits. To admit that their pilot was asleep at the wheel opens the doors for lawyers around the world. The US, of course, will never let a good tragedy “go to waste”. And here we are.

  24. geokat62 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Don’t you want credibility greater than that of the sad “former CIA analyst” McGovern…. Will you be reduced to pay for fringe interview performances where they don’t know or don’t care that you are talking flatulent meaningless garbage like McGovern now?

    Badmouthing former CIA analyst Ray McGovern speaks volumes about your integrity. Ray McGovern, along with Phil Giraldi, Justin Raimondo, Mearsheimer and Walt, Alison Weir, Congressman Paul Findley, among others, have done the heavy lifting making Americans aware that their foreign policy has been hijacked by the Israel Lobby and that all the wars targeting Muslim countries are not meant to keep them safe but are meant to enhance the security of Israel.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  25. @Ronald Thomas West

    You are as silly and self important as I have noted for some time. The proof for me is that you think I have any barrow to push at all. Only your self absorbed preconceptions could make you think that. I think I may be able to simplify my enjoyment of Ron Unz’s initiative by listing another Commenter to Ignore.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  26. @annamaria

    As usual you can’t see the wood for the trees and rabbit on about the trivial and barely relevant. You really shouldn’t nbother going on (again) about that neo-nazi stuff. Sometimes undesirable people end up doing things which support one’s cause. Generally, so what? As you blather on about subjects you have no particular knowledge of consider the neo-nazi case as one where you should really put up or shut up on its importance.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  27. @geokat62

    Well I admit that I know nothing of McGovern than what seemed to me to be one of those sad and desperate attempts to keep his name on the last ditch interviewees list but I invite you to justify two things:

    1. How has attacking McGovern got anything to do with “integrity” given that you couldn’t have known that I was judging him on one interview which could legitimately be regarded as a little unfair;
    2. On the substance of my criticism can you defend his pathetic attempt to smear his country’s government by puffing the ridiculous point that he did? He doesn’t strike me as a Philip Giraldi.

    And what do you say about the substance of my comment? Are you only sniping at the perpheral, or will you go into bat and join The Saker in courageous putting of your credit on the line?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  28. @Flower

    Wouldn’t the pilot have depended on his superiors to tell him whether it was necessary to take a longer and more expensive route? Why shouldn’t he have trusted them to do their homework? At what point do you say he should have made the decision to ignore them and to incur the costs in time and money involved in getting out of Ukraine air space asap? And what information did he have which would have guided him? It’s all very well to be a know-all over a year later on the Intenet, but what’s the basis for criticising the pilot rather than management?

    • Replies: @Flower
  29. @Flower

    We’ve got teamwork trolling:

    Our smelly corpse flower has checked in with something similar to the Robert Parry-Ray McGovern promoted USA ‘fall-back’ position. When the ‘Russia did it’ thing begins to fall apart, fall back on ‘it was a tragic accident’ for which the dumb Ukies were responsible but in Flower’s case still pin some of the blame on the Russians or ‘the let’s not cut our losses altogether yet’ line.

    And then Geokat picks up on the WoO troll where the WoO troll came close to an admission (with spin, of course) picking on the Ray McGovern line .. Geokat says

    Badmouthing former CIA analyst Ray McGovern speaks volumes about your integrity. Ray McGovern, along with Phil Giraldi, Justin Raimondo, Mearsheimer and Walt, Alison Weir, Congressman Paul Findley, among others, have done the heavy lifting making Americans aware that their foreign policy has been hijacked by the Israel Lobby and that all the wars targeting Muslim countries are not meant to keep them safe but are meant to enhance the security of Israel

    Of course good ol Christian Ray would never bite on phony information, just the fact he lives like a hermit in piety makes all of those 27 years serving empire at the CIA just perfect, never mind he consistently steers people in alternative media away from the arch criminals and the real danger zones in the matter of Ukraine (it ain’t Israel responsible for every little detail boys and girls) sooo, here’s an interesting take on McGovern, I won’t say anything more about it other it’s just one more take that is worth a read:

    So, what gives here? Smelly Flower comes up with a line similar to the McGovern-Parry misinfo, Mr ‘everything western media reports is perfect’ WoO has bashed McGovern and Geokat upholds McGovern’s sad senility on the matter of Ukraine by bringing Israel into play, whilst name-dropping McGovern into a pantheon of alternative media stars (but neglecting to mention McGovern’s primary partner in media crime on the subject of Ukraine, Robert Parry.)

    Couldn’t you all somehow get on the same page?

    • Replies: @Flower
  30. Biff says:

    Nice story, but there would have been many witnesses if your creativity was true..

    • Replies: @Flower
  31. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I found your language, Sir, both offensive and reflecting on bad manners overall. Whatever your age, this does not excuse you being rude to other participants of this discussion.
    Some of the discussants are obviously the real experts. As for the principled Ray McGovern, he is an independent and well-respected thinker.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  32. geokat62 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I’ve been reading McGovern for years. He is a man for whom I have a great deal of respect. I encourage you to go back and read his articles. They provide in-depth analysis and have the courage to speak truth to power.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  33. @Wizard of Oz

    I think I may be able to simplify my enjoyment of Ron Unz’s initiative by listing another Commenter to Ignore.

    Wiz, apart from trashing posters and other commenters, exactly what enjoyment do you get out of Unz? Maybe you should go and see what ‘The Economist’ has on offer.

  34. krollchem says:

    It seems that the “international” investigators only have rudimentary puzzle solving skills necessary to figure out the cause of this tragic loss of life. From what I have read many of the critical parts were even left back at the crash site, or still buried, to ensure failure of the investigation. Furthermore, no autopsy results have been released which would identify the penetration wounds and fragments of the projectiles.

    Obviously no attempt has been made to employ standard material science techniques to determine the composition and providence of the projectiles and the residue left by penetrations on the airframe. Why haven’t these dutch idiots contacted a decent laboratory to conduct WD-XRF, high resolution ICP-OES, GD-MS and/or laser ablation-ion trap-MS metallurgical analysis. To get really fancy, a magnetic sector ICP-MS system could be used to identify the source and even batch of the munitions based on isotopic abundance ratios.

    It is obvious that the blind, deaf and speechless are employed to ensure the investigation gets nowhere.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  35. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    1. Russia does not operate MiG-21s, which were long ago taken out of service.
    2. It is difficult to read the rest of what you wrote.

    • Replies: @Flower
  36. annamaria says:

    Cool down.
    You are trying to make a point that both the US and RF behave badly. First, this approach does not help the discussion and second, the documents (below) show quite clearly who is a villain that has been working hard on creating the current dangerous and bloody situation in Eastern Europe. If you are not aware, people have been dying in Ukraine and the country’s economy is in ruins.

    Subject Nyet Means Nyet: Russia’s Nato Enlargement Redlines
    Origin Embassy Moscow (Russia)
    Cable time Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:25 UTC

  37. @geokat62

    WoO bashing McGovern doesn’t make WoO, McGovern or Geokat particularly smart.

    Here McGovern is published at the neo-conservative Kyiv Post:

    ^ Actually a very good history of the USA’s violating George H.W. Bush’s committing to Russia (but never in writing) the USA would not expand NATO to Russia’s borders. The trick involved? The ‘read more’ link at Kyiv Post takes the readers (and draws attention) to Robert Parry’s site where Parry is a pro at attacking false mainstream media narrative with false ‘alternative media’ narrative.

    What is the Kyiv Post more often engaged in? Here’s all you need to know, it’s about Poroshenko and ‘friends’ like Bernard Henry-Lévy who’s everywhere flies are attracted to stink:


  38. @Seamus Padraig

    I do read widely. I know a number of Ron’s contributors and I trust his judgment so I sample those that I don’t. When they seem to me slipshod or shoddy, and particularly when Commenters are willing to go along with that, I take the time when I am on holiday as I now am to see if criticism can make those contributors show themselves worthy of Ron’s patronage.

  39. @annamaria

    Well I’m sorry I picked up on McGovern’s reported beat-up of a no-news non-issue event since others here seem to be fans or critics who are aware of his work. But I don’t resile for a moment from saying that to try to make a point out of it being the White House political wordsmiths rather than the CIA professionals who gave America’s first response to the downing of MH17 is fatuous.

  40. @Seamus Padraig

    Also – in direct response – the Commenter I was referring to directed an unprovoked, indeed totally gratuitous, insult at me which had no basis in fact. He was showing himself either to be too stupid to bother with or too unscrupulous in his advocacy to be allowed standing in court.

  41. @krollchem

    How can all that be obvious? Are you privy to all the unpublished details, methodology and discoveries of the investigation? Are you willing to stake your reputation on it – like The Saker?

    • Replies: @krollchem
  42. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “Sometimes undesirable people end up doing things which support one’s cause.”

    Sure. The neo-Nazi sympathizers both in the US and Canada will certainly agree with you:
    “Canada is the leading state sponsor of neo-Nazi armed terrorist units fighting in eastern Ukraine. Canadian support for the most right-wing elements, including neo-Nazis, in Ukraine would never have been possible had it not been for the concrete support provided by the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS) and its Central Intelligence Agency masters… It is a community that numbers 1.2 million and which has tremendous political clout in the Canadian Parliament and various provincial legislatures. Just as was the case in the United States, Canadian neo-Nazi groups benefited from the right-wing and anti-Russian passions of the eastern European diaspora community that was permitted unfettered entry into Canada after World War II. America’s secret Operation Paperclip saw a number of Nazis given safe passage into the United States from Germany and countries in Eastern Europe. Many Nazis also entered Canada where they became active in emigré groups, including the Ukrainians, White Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Czechoslovaks, and others. Many of these groups supported the Reform Party of Preston Manning, which served as the inspiration for the Conservatives of current Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.”
    Any more spitting on the memory of those who fought agains Nazism during the WWII?

    What other “undesirable people” could support one’s cause?
    “…Michael T. Flynn, the retired head of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), confirming that White House officials made a “willful decision” to support al-Qaeda affiliated jihadists in Syria — despite being warned by the DIA that doing so would likely create an ‘ISIS’-like entity in the region.”
    Well. Here we are, the sponsors of the throat-slitters and cannibals. That was some amazing strategic decision! But, as you wrote, “Sometimes undesirable people end up doing things which support one’s cause.”

    • Replies: @Ivan
  43. krollchem says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Having worked as a senior metals analyst chemist (retired) at three national laboratories I am intimately familiar with the shortcomings of current metallurgical analysis methods used throughout the US DOE and EPA contractor run facilities. You would not believe the wide scale ignorance of statistical sampling methods, clean room operation, effective dissolution methods (e.g. beryllium, DU, REEs, etc), separation/preconcentration techniques, precise trace metal analysis, and quality assurance within most of these facilities.

    There are a few scattered laboratories around the world that are capable of doing quality forensic metallurgical analysis. Unfortunately, these laboratories are not present in the Netherlands, nor are the safety “engineers” reconstructing the scattered bits of the wreckage knowledgeable of where to look to acquire the services of such laboratories. Added to this are the general ignorance of scientific methods among project managers and the political subclass that manage the on-site managers.

    Yes, I have seen photos of most of the airframe fragments and a few of the bodies. Don’t get me started on pathology services and autopsies, or the lack of them.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  44. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “The prima facie evidence says that it was not safe, so somebody made a mistake.”
    – In April 2014 the Ukrainian State Air Traffic Services Enterprise of the Ministry of
    Infrastructure of Ukraine officially informed the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) about the cases, when the Russian Federation committed unlawful seizure of radio frequency spectrum that belongs to Ukraine, misuse of 121.5 MHz emergency frequency and unauthorized use the third parties of the operational radio frequencies used at Odesa and Dnipropetrovsk Air Control Centres. Accordingly, the ICAO officially addressed the appropriate State Authorities of aircraft operators and confirmed that the Simferopol flight information region was under the responsibility of Ukraine and drew attention of the States concerned to the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights due to the unsafe situation where more than one air traffic service provider might be controlling flights within the same airspace;

    – The national telecommunication operator “Ukrtelecom” informed that on 25.09.2014 the
    unidentified assailants seized its premises and telecommunication equipment in the city of
    Sevastopol. As a result of this illegal action, arranged by the illegitimate and self proclaimed
    authorities of the city of Sevastopol, “Ukrtelecom” has been deprived of any control of its
    telecommunication network and assets in Sevastopol and work of the operator in that city
    as been fully blocked and consequently shut down.

    The Russian telecommunications operator “Sevtelekom” now provides termination of
    telecommunication traffic coming from the city of Sevastopol by operating the captured equipment Ukrtelecom” and using the Russian international code “+ 7 869 “ that is disguised as

    ITU is encouraged to take special action to address the Russian Federation Administration
    about the inadmissibility of the actions that violate the provisions of ITU Basic Texts and
    incompatible with provisions of the UNGA Resolution 68/262, in particular: fundamental principles set forth in the Preamble to the Constitution, Preamble to the
    International Telecommunication Regulations, Preamble to the Radio Regulations;
    Nos 31, 37, 38, 196, 197 and 198 of the Constitution; Nos 8.1, 8.3 and 11.2 – 11.8 of the Radio Regulations;
    No 9 of the International Telecommunications Regulations (Melbourne, 1988).
    Full texts of the above mentioned provisions are given in Annex 1)

    3 NOV 2014 : Ukraine Objectives and supporting information on Ukraine’s proposal

    UKR/84/1 (document 84 rev.1) on Draft New Resolution [UKR-1] “Assistance and support to Ukraine for guaranteeing the use of frequency and numbering resources in the territories of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol”!!MSW-E.pdf

  45. Sam Shama says:

    I know very little about the parameters and circumstances surrounding the MH-17 tragedy. So this discussion is quite engaging.

    On the whole I find RTW’s analysis most convincing, since it very carefully lays out the political constraints faced by the Obama/CIA vs. the Merkel/CDU/BND axes.

    So net result is we (USA and Western allies) get to blame Putin (or lay the blame on some manner of war-zone accident) and Germany gets to mollify its Russian industrial/commercial interests. What I also find intriguing is Ron’s insight into how both MSM and Alternative media (sometimes) is manipulated by the Intelligence complex.

    Yet again, I get to a conclusion I have harboured for a longish time, which is that very few people in this business (political, commercial, intelligence and media) have spotless and unassailable virtue.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  46. Bill says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    And your evidence for this bizarre theory-of-the-minute is?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  47. Bill says:

    “There is a place for conspiracies but not here. ”

    Yeah, if I were to go looking for conspiracies, the last place I would look would be a lukewarm combat zone in a guerilla war between two nuclear powers.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Ivan
  48. Bill says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    Exactly. Israel bombs its neighbors all the time. Why would they supply effective AA to people they might want to bomb in five minutes?

  49. @Bill

    You are being deliberately perverse or trying on one of those glib high school debating tricks that would simply annoy a judge if you were deploying it as an advocate. It is obvious that Ivan’s “here” in his rejection of conspiracy “here” had nothing to do with geography or a war zone but was referring to a context which included the probabilities of Ukrainian air force pilots being willing to murder 300 friendly foreigners.

  50. Ivan says:

    Simply because putative neo-Nazis are associated with the Ukranian cause does mean that the Ukranians shot that plane down. It is very convenient for the Russians to label anyone they wish to undermine as Nazis. Good cheap propaganda.

    • Replies: @5371
    , @annamaria
  51. Ivan says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    I agree that there plenty of bad eggs around. But what about the Russians? If their evidence is so convincing that they have found the “smoking gun”, why not just present it and be done with it, instead of spreading FUD about Su-25s? I mean they of all people will have the best intelligence on the New Russia airspace. In other places we are told of the dominance of the Russians over the electromagnetic spectrum in that space. Well, lets see what they’ve got.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  52. @Bill

    You ask me about a “bizarre theory-of-the-minute” and make me scratch my head. It’s a bit like the law student popping up with “but why did he make the contract in the first place” and all you can think of to say is “Lord William, I draw your attention to the fact that we are in a Tort class, and, while that doesn’t exclude the possibility of there being a contract there is in this case no evidence that any contract was made”.

    So what the hell is this bizarre theory you are using for your Bronx cheer?

    Some others have – have they not? – drawn attention to the undesirable route over Eastern Ukraine that air traffic controllers presumably had some part in at some stage for some purpose. It is not my theorising that has this as part of Ukrainian authorities luring MH17 over a dangerous place. I merely pointed to some facts which might make it seem a ridiculous theory. Do you deny those facts?

    • Replies: @Bill
  53. Ivan says:

    As far as anti-aircraft activity goes the place was warm enough for the Novorussia people to have shot down a couple of Ukranian transport planes in that time period.

  54. 5371 says:

    What’s the deal with you? You seem a reasonable chap on the whole, but on this particular MH17 issue you continue to retail the nasty and insidious propaganda of western spooks. Are you being paid to do it?

  55. krollchem says:


    As you pointed out 2-3 AN-26 cargo planes were shot down by manpads as they tried to resupply Ukraine troops trapped East of the Saur Mogila WWII monument. The Ukraine army plan was to take over and control the border with Russia and squeeze the DPR/LPR forces into a pocket.

    Ukraine was desperate to save these forces as they represented most of the best units they had. Some 8,000 to 11,000 troops were trapped including elements of the following brigades: 24, 25 28, 51, 72, 79 and 95th as well as several detached battalions and police/border units. My theory is that the remnants of Ukraine air forces shot down MH17 as a diversion in order to allow their units to escape the trap.

    The subsequent massive attack on Saur Mogila, including ballistic missiles eventually allowed a portion of this force to escape, in small groups, just south of this high point, but without much of their armor. Other units chose to surrender to the Russian border forces and were subsequently returned to Ukraine where they were arrested by the Junta.

  56. @krollchem

    Well you certainly are qualified to make an expert comment on what sort of job the investigators have done when they report, assuming the report gives the details it ought to about methodology, tests performed (including where and by whom) etc. And I can acknowledge and sympathise with your readiness to assume incompetence and error after a working lifetime of professional expertise professionally applied. But I still think you have started the shoot prematurely 🙂

  57. @Seamus Padraig

    Reviewing again quite a few comments and my reaction to them I would think it fair to say that there is almost nobody, including The Saker who has made an assertion convincingly within his field of expert knowledge or with due modesty because it isn’t so confined. I may be on holiday but I don’t like wasting my time on bad arguments or sloppy overstatement. I’ve spent long enough trying to be polite when confronted by family members, students or witnesses who, one thinks optimistically, should be able to do better. So, sorry, if I sound rude.

    On a related subject I looked up Cassovian after puzzling over the clues “Irate Cassovian” dropped in his first post about his country. I think he’s a harmless troll but probably seriously suggesting that there’s a lot of BS around and we should lighten up.

  58. @Ivan

    If you’d read the analysis linked in comment #9, you’d see the Russians did put out their information, and invited the USA to release their satellite images, early on. Meanwhile, the USA has relied on ‘social media’ for ‘evidence.’ Your style of throwing up a wall of denial despite facts previously put forward is quite similar to the considerable more concerted effort of WoO whose dedication would also seem to burying the facts.

    In light of this, I invite the readers to educate themselves, I keep notes, here are a few:

    11 reasons why it was Kiev shot down Flight MH 17

    21st Century Wire assessment of Flight MH 17

    Link to English translation of Russian Engineers Union MH 17 analysis

    The German Foreign Ministry backs down in a diplomatic note to the Russians on BND (German CIA) claims Ukrainian ‘separatists’ shot down MH 17

    Malaysia cut out of the investigation

    6 December note: several families are demanding (via a lawyer) the MH 17 investigation be surrendered by the Dutch and turned over to the UN

    Kiev refused a request from European air traffic control to close the airspace over the Donbass conflict region:

    Malaysia has been included in the investigation after preparing to send high level officials to demand explanations:

    But it may be too late on account of the USA’s FBI has its fingerprints on the ‘evidence’

    Recalling the CIA & FBI has never been held accountable for planted evidence framing Libya for the Lockerbie bombing:


    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  59. @Ronald Thomas West

    A website aligned with the ethnic Russian separatists reports on evidence they say came from Russian air traffic control:

    A reporter ‘finds’ BUK fragments which are lab tested BUT this recalls FBI & CIA involvement in Lockerbie; when evidence had been planted. The suspect story here:

    The Lockerbie story (again) here:

    By this time the evidence site had been severely compromised in a highly charged geopolitical circumstance where after eight months suddenly there is BUK evidence recovered, tested and made public; against overwhelming preponderance of circumstantial evidence the plane had not been brought down by a BUK missile. Contrast this ‘public evidence’ with a “non-disclosure” agreement where any one party to the investigation, including the likely party responsible for downing MH 17 can block evidence release to the public:

    This bears remarkable resemblance to classic intelligence agency ‘information operations’ where there is conviction in the public forum even as evidence pointing to the actual perpetrators is arranged to be with-held

    The Dutch investigators are so short on evidence of a BUK missile shoot down of MH 17, they have advertised a call for witnesses; practically inviting mentally unbalanced attention seekers and professionally prepared false testimony from Kiev:


  60. Western Press picks up blogger Eliot Higgins ‘crowd-sourced’ Bellingcat ‘Russian’s faked photos’ story on MH 17 subsequently shot down by experts:

    How strange is it, when any western outlet refuses to carry a story on the head of STRATFOR calling regime change in Kiev the ‘most blatant coup in history’…
…but will pick up information no competent intelligence agency should have missed (and none reported), presented 10-1/2 months after the fact from a group founded by an amateur? My assessment at:

    Russia states they have a Ukrainian witness to back up the SU 25 combat jet shoot-down of MH 17:

    Phil Giraldi’s assessment questioning the ‘Russia did it’ narrative (I think he is too generous to the western democracies but worth a read nonetheless)

    Quote likely highly relevant to the Dutch investigation of MH 17’s downing is the CIA’s relationship to Dutch intelligence: “liaison with the Dutch is considered excellent because they facilitate support operations” Former CIA officer Phillip Agee in his book ‘Inside The Company’

  61. @Sam Shama

    On the whole I find RTW’s analysis most convincing, since it very carefully lays out the political constraints faced by the Obama/CIA vs. the Merkel/CDU/BND axes

    Just to be clear (I’ve posted more than one analysis) Sam is referring to this one:

    Thanks Sam

    (and that probably about does for my comments at this article, have at it troll-boys)

  62. annamaria says:

    Last time I checked, the US Sec of State called the RF President “Hitler.” What exactly your post has to do with the US reluctance to provide the satellite images for the location of MH-17 tragedy? It was the US government that immediately accused Russian federation of the crime (because Putin is “Hitler”) without prodding a shred of valuable information apart form the “independent” social mead of Bellincat kind, which happened to be not independent at all but connected to the usual suspects in the US.
    Nobody is trying to say that all Ukrainians are Nazis; but, for the whole world to see, the US had sponsored a regime change in Kiev (“the most blatant coup d’etat,” George Friedman of intelligent form Stratfor, USA) that brought to power the avowed neo-Nazis (not alleged, not supposed, but openly self-proclaimed). Don’t you think that this support of neo-Nazis is insulting to the memory of those who fought with Nazism in Europe and the US?
    The idealistic element of Maidan uprising, those that wanted to improved the livelihood of all Ukrainians, did not risk their lives for exchanging one set of ruling oligarchs (with the vulgar thief Yanukovitch in charge) with another set of oligarchs (with the obnoxious US “assets” Yatz and Poroschenko) and they did not envision that a legitimate request for federalization of Ukraine would lead to a civil war. These patriotic Ukrainians were used, abused, and discarded by the players in the US and Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Avery
  63. Alieu says:

    The “rebels” in Syria do have anti-aircraft missiles and did shoot down a number of planes and helicopters. There are videos of them using Chinese and Soviet-made missiles as well as ZSU-23 radar-guided AAA (although I don’t think they know how to use the radar). One reason for the effectiveness of the Novorossiyans is that the late Soviet-era Manpads they are using are much more effective than the older types commonly used in Syria. They also have some heavier vehicle mounted AA missiles like the Strela-2 which the “Syrian rebels” do not have. The tactics of the regime air forces in Ukraine were also bad. Most of the aircraft shot down there have been either helicopters or propeller planes. One was a large cargo airplane that they were stupid enough to fly right into Lugansk Airport even though that is at the centre of the fighting. It was hit as it was coming in to land.

    With regards to Mh17, I don’t think it’s helpful to speculate on what type of missile was used, whether it was ground-based or air-air. We don’t know. There is strong evidence that a fighter-sized aircraft was following it, and Russia released satellite photographs showing Buk missile launchers belonging to the regime in the area at the time of the shoot-down. I personally have no doubt that the regime is responsible, and that the US was involved as well. This has the same fingerprints of the Syrian false flag chemical attack all over it. The most damning indicator is the complete refusal by the US to release any evidence, despite having the most advanced spying network in the world. Also, the fact that the investigation of the wreckage had to be cancelled after a few days because the regime kept firing artillery onto the crash site while the investigators were there, despite promising not to fire any weapons onto a 15km zone around the site only a few days earlier. If the Novorossiyans are guilty, why would the regime repeatedly fire artillery onto the crash site, forcing the investigation to be cancelled? That is damning evidence by itself.

    Oz’s attack on Ray McGovern is pathetic. He is not just a “former CIA analyst”, he gave the daily intelligence briefings to three different US Presidents and was one of the most senior men in the CIA. He was one of their chief experts on the Soviet Union and speaks fluent Russian. He is more qualified than anyone on this website. He has personal experience of how the US Government under Reagan deliberately exploited the shoot-down of KAL-007 for maximum propaganda gain and released doctored recordings of the Soviet pilot to falsely give the impression he deliberately shot down a passenger plane even though the full recording showed he thought it was a US spyplane. We only have the full recording now because Yeltsin released the tapes after the breakup of the Soviet Union. If that had not happened, the US doctored version would never have been exposed.

    • Replies: @unit472
  64. Flower says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Well, I see the consummate dickhead RT West is blathering himself into a hissy fit again. Like the typical tool, Ron Thomas West cannot imagine anything other than what he is told to, and then, only if he holds his peepee just right. It’s not that you have a different opinion, Ron, it just that you are a complete asshole. Like Richard Nixon, you aren’t doing anything that anybody else hasn’t done before you, it’s just that you are so undeniably stupid, people are easily bored by you.

    I notice in your comment you didn’t bother to say anything, the best you could muster was a link, probably because it’s too much trouble for you to actually think for yourself.

    So, Dickwad West, save your adolescence for those easily impressed, the rest of us have your number.

  65. Dear Saker, yesterday, I listened to this video interview of “V” The Guerrilla Economist by Rogue Money:

    “V” discussed the situations in Greece, Ukraine, Syria, Iran/Israel, The House of Saud, Russia, China, Dedollarization, Christophe de Margerie, the IMF, and the Petrodollar. Some of the things (tho, not all) discussed in the interview were eye-openers. I’m now beginning to wonder whether or not the tragic MH-17 has any link to the preservation of the Petrodollar. It seems stupefying to even suspect that, I know. But then again, it is now a known fact that ISIS is a creation of the West. I feel that anything could be possible as long as there is desperation involved. What is your take on this?

    *(In my opinion, tho, I don’t believe the Petrodollar will die. Most likely it will be diminished in use.)


  66. unit472 says:

    I don’t think it matters. You can throw all the sand you want but the world knows Russia did it and that Russia never admits to or pays compensation for any of its crimes. Its just the way they are. The good news is the Russian rouble and economy are collapsing and we shall be rid of this pathetic punk and his regime soon enough.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Flower
    , @Avery
  67. Rurik says:

    is it a coincidence that the cockpit right where the pilot sits was riddled with bullet holes?

    The Ukrainians did it and the West will never admit it.

    End of story.


    has anyone ever been held accountable for a false flag?

    sinking of the Maine?

    Gulf of Tonkin?

    USS Liberty?


    many, many others, yet it’s aways the young and poor who get ground up and the wealthy and treacherous who prosper. So they figure why not just keep doing it..

  68. Flower says:

    You are correct, there would be many witnesses. However, do the witnesses actually know what they are witnessing? A SAM site is a fairly complex system, and not just any grunt is going to know what the techs are doing to and with the SAM. So what’s he going to witness, “Uh, yeah, they were doing something and then the rocket went ‘wooosh’ and it took off.”

    What you (and apparently most others commenting) are “debating” is where the blame should fall. I’m wasn’t discussing blame, I was discussing how the incident occurred.

    In reality, Biff, who cares if there are “many witnesses”? Look at the news that has been printed about this and tell me anybody knows anything about what happened. The “news” is all polar opposites, so who is right and who is lying? The overwhelming fact is that EVERYBODY IS LYING. The US doesn’t deny it has satellite photos as to what happened, it also refuses to release those photos. Why?

    The airliner was shot down in one of two ways: either it was deliberate (plans, premeditation and all that), or is was by accident. There are no other possibilities. Taking all the various factions and sides of this affair, there is no one in that area who had control of SAMs who would have benefited in any way in deliberately shooting down an airliner. I ran across a rumor that Vladimir Putin’s plane was the real target, as it was supposed to be in that area at that time. But it has to be the stupidest of the stupid Ukrainian (sort of like Ron Thomas West) to believe that shooting down the President Of Russia is going to help things in any way at all. But some are saying, “No, no. The “Rebel” Ukrainians wanted to shoot down Putin so they could blame the “Loyalist” Ukrainians and maybe get Russia to enter the fracas. But is that a gamble or what? The “Rebels” stand to lose everything which such a stunt. Besides, according to some of the lies coming out of that region, the Rebel chain of command ends in Moscow, i.e. with Valdimir Putin. And we are to believe that Putin okayed the shooting of himself? If the “Rebels” were shooting at Putin, this would be what is called “a coup”, and if there had been a coup against Putin, do you not think we would have heard about it by now? The Western MSM would be wall to wall headlines about Putin’s near miss.

    In fact, an equally plausible scenario is that the plane was shot down by a couple of bored, jerkoff Ukrainians “operating” a SAM site which resulted in a Ukrainian equivalent to “Hey y’all, watch this!”

    The majority of the comments on here seem to believe that the incident was deliberate. I do not believe that; however, the incident is, obviously, being deliberately used for propaganda purposes, which is why we will never know the truth.

    But nobody has answered what possessed the pilot of MH17 to fly over a war zone? If you are sitting in your house and you hear on the news that there is a major gunfight going on between two rival street gangs, and the gunfight is at 6th and Main in your town, do you immediately grab the wife and kids and go there? “C’mon, honey, I hear they’re using real bullets. We gotta check this out.”

    • Replies: @Kiza
  69. Flower says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    1. I used “Mig 21” as it had been mentioned in a couple of “news” releases that a Mig 21 was in the area. Since the Russian pilot was doing picket duty, it is doubtful that the newest, most modern fighter would be used. What would be needed is a plane with the best fuel usage, so he wouldn’t need to refuel as much. By “taken out of service” what do you mean? The Mig 21 is no longer a front line fighter, but a plane used for picket duty would be more than just a gun platform with wings, it would chocked full of all sorts of electronics to detect what the Ukrainians”Loyalists” had , where it is, and what type of system it is and so on.
    #2. Buy glasses.

  70. Flower says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “Wouldn’t the pilot have depended on his superiors to tell him whether it was necessary to take a longer and more expensive route?” If you mean the airline pilot, No. Absolutely not. Does the pilot have to request permission from his superiors to fly around a sever thunderstorm? to avoid oncoming traffic? You have misunderstood how the system works. There are no “orders” given to an airline Captain. There are only suggestions, requests, maybe even veiled threats, but there are no orders. Let me abortionize a quote from Herman Wouk, “The last vestige 0f absolute monarchy on the face of the Earth is the Captain aboard his ship.” That is a line from the movie, “The Caine Mutiny”. Works for airline Captains too.

    “Why shouldn’t he have trusted them to do their homework?” The answer to this is obvious, I’m surprised you asked the question.

    “At what point do you say he should have made the decision to ignore them and to incur the costs in time and money involved in getting out of Ukraine air space asap? ” I would have ignored them the moment I filed my flight plan. At the very latest, it would have been as I approached the Ukrainian border. This is hard for you?

    “And what information did he have which would have guided him?” First off, most of the newspapers from the previous 6 months. He also should have had SOME common sense. But even if he was as dumb as Ron Thomas West, he should have had at least SOME vestige of an instinct for personal survival.

    “It’s all very well to be a know-all over a year later on the (sic)Intenet, but what’s the basis for (sic) criticising the pilot rather than management?” Because management WASN’T flying the bloody plane. Have IQs suddenly tumbled?

    Wiz, hint: the guy wasn’t driving a bus. The pilot was driving a multi-million dollar piece of machinery crammed full of hundreds of living human beings who were all depending upon that pilot to maintain their safety and ability to keep breathing. Pilots are supposed, trained, and paid to be PROACTIVE, not sit around making excuses as to why they got blown up.

  71. annamaria says:

    As Aleiu has already responded to your post, “The most damning indicator is the complete refusal by the US to release any evidence, despite having the most advanced spying network in the world.”

    Here is a choice:
    1. either the US government knows that Kiev had ordered the shooting of MH-17 and, moreover, the US (and perhaps Israel) were involved in this heinous crime
    2. the spying network in the US is so bad that it was not able to collect anything specific in Ukraine on a day of shooting, which means that the whole intelligence apparatus involved in the multibillion business of monitoring the war zones abroad should be immediately fired and tried for incompetence as well as for embezzlement of the astronomical sums of money that the US has been spending on maintaining the spying network.

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
  72. Flower says:

    I don’t know. I seem to remember Russia quite openly admitting that they shot down Korean Air 007. But why would Russia shoot down a Malaysian aircraft?
    Then again, if GW can invade Iraq because of what a bunch of Saudis cooked up in Afghanistan and Germany, I guess the Russians, who are mad at part of Ukraine, can take it out on a Malaysian Airliner loaded with Dutch people. Yeah, that makes sense.

  73. Avery says:

    {“The good news is the Russian rouble and economy are collapsing and we shall be rid of this pathetic punk and his regime soon enough.”}

    The good news is neither the ruble nor the Russian economy are collapsing.

    And who this “we” you are referring to ?
    You and your Neocon/NeoNazi buddies ?

    The glorious Red Army already did get rid of the pathetic punk – your Führer – and his 1000 year Reich regime.
    The cowardly pathetic little punk committed suicide, rather than go down fighting the Red Army troops who were going to enter his “rat’s lair” and ………do some bad things to him and his Nazi gang.
    Nevertheless, the magnanimous Soviet/Russian people allowed the German people to live on, although the Germanic Hitlerite hordes had every intention to exterminate every last Slav.

    But that’s the last time Russia will cut Nazis and other invaders any slack: this time if Nazis try anything, all of Neo-Nazi Germany and their Neo-Nazi allies will get a terrible sunburn from some of the 10,000 nuclear warheads that Russia has been keeping for just such an occasion.

  74. vinteuil says:

    Dudes – nobody has yet come up with an even remotely plausible explanation for why anybody would have done this deliberately, and how they could have got away with it, without anybody tattling.

    Flower is probably right. Is was probably an accident.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @annamaria
  75. Kiza says:

    Obviously, only a super-intelligent person like you can decide what a SAM launch site is, forget about those dumb Ukrainans and Russians from Eastern Ukraine, they cannot know and they lie. BTW, you would not stand to Ronald Thomas West’s ankles in terms of intelligence and knowledge.

    It is just amazing how all the “smart and knowledgeable people” like you keep repeating this stupidity about accidentally shooting down a fast moving jet at 10 km altitude. The only mistake which can happen is a miss-identification of a plane, not to shoot down a plane out of idleness or drunkenness. It is not easy to shoot down a plane from the ground, it is much easier to do so from another jet. Most AA missiles are self-navigating “fire and forget” – no navigation to target by the pilot, whilst SAM systems such as BUK requires concerted actions from trained crew to identify and navigate the missile to target.

    Also, targeting radars of the Ukrainian BUK systems which the Russians identified cannot guide a military jet onto a target. Guidance of military jets to target can happen only from the surveillance radars which are on all the time (except when targeted by radar seeking missiles). BUK targeting radars are turned on only if/when there is a flying target identified by military surveillance radar (air-defense, as opposed to civilian air-traffic-control surveillance radar). The reason Ukrainian BUK radars would have been on is because an unidentified/unannounced (Ukrainian) jet was in the air, the same one which the Russian military surveillance radar on the other side of border indicated.

    In summary, there are only two possibilities here:
    1) a crew from Russia made a totally unexplainable mistake (similar to TWA800 shootdown) or
    2) Ukrainian jet(s) did it for a specific purpose to get sanctions introduced against Russia.

    Through simple deduction, considering that this typical concerted screaming of the Western politicians and the MSM started immediately after the shoot-down, the 90% certainty conclusion is that the shoot-down was by the US/Israeli neocons, through their Ukrainian proxies. Therefore, by “reverse- engineering” the Western MSM one can see that there was organization behind this shoot-down, it does not appear random.

    If this was somebody’s mistake, the media would have taken a few days to organize its screaming, media executives would have been waiting for some facts. In Australia, a moron Prime Minister called Tony Abbott was screaming against the Russians on the radio about 7 hours after the shoot-down. Who needs investigations when dumb people know everything. If the Russians jumped so quickly to conclusions, the West would be making jokes about their stupidity for weeks and months.

    What is the logic of including the Ukrainian puppets of the US/Israel in this investigative committee when Ukraine is at least partially responsible for this shoot-down, by navigating this civilian jet over a war zone? Do we have any doubts what the final investigative report from such investigative committee will say?

    • Replies: @Flower
  76. Kiza says:

    In terms of no-reason for a deliberate shoot-down, I have written on the day of the shoot-down that E300 billion in Russia-EU annual trade is about Euro 1B per head of the person killed. Naturally, the shoot-down managed to damage this trade by only about E60 billion, but 200 million Euro per head of the victim is still a “nice” achievement. Not that those killers would hesitate to kill you for 1 Euro.

    Unidentified snipers shoot at both sides at Maidan Square (the Russians are accused), inexplicably a civilian plane get shot-down out of the sky (the Russians are accused), what “inexplicable” is next?

    How dumb do you need to be to believe this Western manipulative rubbish?

  77. annamaria says:

    The US government firmly disagrees with you and directs you to Bellingcat blog to find the truth and only truth about MH-17. The blog is run by Mr. Higgins that “has no training in science, only in women’s underwear sales.” Despite the lack of expertise in anything but “women’s underwear sales,” Mr. Higgins found an amazing welcome at the Atlantic Council in Washington DC. The same Council that “… often hosts events with sitting heads of state and government, including former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili [who is wanted in his native Georgia] and Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk [whose approving rate in Ukraine is currently 1.3%].
    You see, Julian Assange dared to publish the truth about world governments, including the US government, and as a result, he has been hunted and forced to spend years in Ecuadorian embassy. Mind that Assange has never been charged in Sweden or the UK. Whereas Saakashvili is wanted in his native Georgia for murder and more, yet the US have been generously paying him and his staff in Odessa where the Georgian Saakashvili was appointed a governor by Kiev/US deciders (a sure sign of “democracy on the march”).

  78. Flower says:

    Your lust to pin the blame is almost funny. So, what do you know about a SAM site? Obviously not a whole lot as you seem to think they can’t manage to down a “fast moving jet at 10km”. You should ask John McCain if SAMs can’t shoot down a fast moving jet. Kiddo, that’s what they were built to do.

    Your “two possibilities” belies your bigotry and your short-sightedness. Take a trip down memory lane and figure out why I mentioned John McCain. And missiles.
    Then tell me about accidents.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  79. a German says:

    ATC recordings are at the dutch report and there are a lot of other civil planes guided to the same route.

    Closed cloud cover at this day @~1000m, a BUK needs a few seconds to be above. The plume is poorly seen against the clouds and the noise? As you know, the region is at war and there is a Junta in Kiew. If you have heard or seen something, will you tell?

    I know you’re not interested (cause of brainwash) but BUK is guided by radar reflection. See the impact in the cockpit picture. It tells the story, if you can read it. Shrapnels at high speed. The hull is bent against airstream (and maybe supported by the enthalpy energy of evaporating alloy).

    The BUK (who fired doesn’t matter in this forensic) has locked to the weather radar in the aircraft nose, guided to death . An accident, god bless the victims.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  80. Kiza says:

    A semi-obsolete SAM such as BUK can shoot down a military jet (a smaller target than civilian airliner) moving at up to Mach 4-5, flying at up to 70,000 feet (22 km). A state-of-the art SAM (such as S400) can shoot down a re-entry ballistic missile (even smaller target than a military jet) travelling at Mach 10 and at 100 km altitude.

    But all of this requires a highly trained and attentive crew. Show-off and drunken shoot-downs is what I repelled. It is mean and stupid to turn my words around that I said that SAMs cannot shoot down planes (What are they for then?). One can mistake the identity of a plane, but one cannot shoot down a plane by a SAM as an accident (“I pressed a button and it went boom”).

    My whole post aimed to posit that:
    1) this was a deliberate act, just like the Maidan sniping,
    2) done for a specific purpose of introducing sanctions, and
    3) organized in a specific way, through the main-stream media and politicians’ statements.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Flower
  81. Kiza says:
    @a German

    “The BUK (who fired doesn’t matter in this forensic) has locked to the weather radar in the aircraft nose, guided to death.”

    Your idea is interesting, but is not very likely. The weather radar operates at frequencies which reflect off water.

    Firstly, the BUK radar could not use the same frequencies as the weather radar because it would be blinded by the rain clouds!

    Secondly, the BUK missile is selective in terms of the frequency of the Continues-Wave radiation it hones to, otherwise it would be so easy to jam it (just throw a radio-transmitter device off a targeted plane and the missile goes after it instead after the plane).

    A BUK missile would have honed to the most reflective part of the aircraft’s body, which depends on the angle between the ground targeting radar and the civilian plane: it could have been a wing, or a the fuselage of the plane. The nose of the plane would not have been highly reflective and it would not emit/reflect the right frequency. BUK missile would have exploded about 10 meters away from the target. The proximity of explosion to the cockpit is the strongest argument for the AA missile theory.

    Naturally, any missile, SAM or AA, could have exploded accidentally near the nose and the cockpit. It is really hard to tell apart a hit by SAM or an AA. The key argument against SAM-theory is that no military SIGINT/ELINT, by US or Russia, of a highly contested military zone identified a CW SAM radar radiation (quite specific and unusual signal, the one which triggers the highest level alarm in a cockpit of a military jet – you are about to be blasted out of the sky!!!). This is simply impossible. Think about US SIGINT/ELINT planes (similar to AWACS) flying over Romania, Hungary and Black Sea and registering no military CW radar activity????

    Therefore, the BUK radar would have been very noisy (whichever side used it), but most AA missiles have passive guidance – they do not radiate anything. The SIGINT/ELINT would not have been able to register an AA, but a BUK radar radiation a big definite – yes. If the US claims it was a BUK, where is the proof?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  82. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    a military jet (a smaller target than civilian airliner) moving at up to Mach 4-5,

    There are NO military jets which can fly UP to M=4-5. Do not exist other than in imagination.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  83. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    Your idea is interesting, but is not very likely. The weather radar operates at frequencies which reflect off water.

    Yeah, it is not “interesting idea”, it is down right ridiculous one, since the way firing solutions for SAMs of old Buk type develop are not exactly on the bases of radiation by some “weather radar” but on the RCS of the target, which, civilian aircraft of B-777 class is perfect example of Christmas Tree lighting up the screen. In general, this thread is a gift which keeps on giving. And then all those “small” questions of guidance and updates come into picture but it is too long and tedious to explain it;-)

  84. Kiza says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Who said that the standard military jets can be flying at 4-5 Mach? The fastest standard military jets can fly up to Mach 3, the scram jets can fly up to Mach 24. The fastest standard military jets are MiG-25 Foxbat at Mach 3.2 and the US SR-71 which the MiG-25 was designed to intercept.

    Essentially, the anti-aircraft missile needs to catch up with a jet plane. A jet flies using turbines collecting oxygen from the air. The rocket flies with oxygen in its fuel. The jet will almost always be slower than a rocket. If you can catch up with it, you can shoot it down.

    You guys working for the US Gov are always ready to bend someone’s words. It comes with the job, I guess. Just like the MSM propaganda.

  85. Flower says:

    “1) this was a deliberate act, just like the Maidan sniping,” that is certainly possible, however, nobody stood to gain diddly from the murder of 200+ innocents.

    “2) done for a specific purpose of introducing sanctions” – possible, but as my memory (admittedly fallible) recalls, the US had ALREADY threatened and introduced sanctions. Since that time, even more sanctions have been added, and without the need to murder 200+ people to do so.

    “3) organized in a specific way, through the main-stream media and politicians’ statements.” I’m not sure if this is a complete sentence; however, if you are saying that the US lined up it’s political puppets to start yelling “They did it!” when this thing happened I can only ask why? Let me ask you, if you were a US Congressperson, and some moron from the administration comes to you and informs you that there is a scheme “in the works” that is going to give a propaganda coup, all we have to do is murder 200+ people by blowing up a Malaysian Airliner with 200+ people on board and blame it on somebody else. Boy this will make Russia look bad! Would you jump on board?
    Since this incident, US politician after US politician have made up documented lie after documented lie about Russia, Putin, the “Rebels”, Putin, Russian “aggression”, Putin, and Putin.. They are obviously doing it willy-nilly without planning or coordination, but the point is, the rhetoric has continued, and it is being done so without the need of murdering 200+ people.

    The reason that I wanted you to check out my reference to John McCain is that he was in a very fast jet at a high altitude when a SAM, having been aimed and fired by some stone aged Vietnamese, shot him down. Prior to that, John McCain had been involved with an accidental missile launch that almost sent the USS Forrestal to the bottom. Missiles and accidents seem to have a strange partnership. But so does any weapon or weapons system.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  86. Kiza says:

    “…the US had ALREADY threatened and introduced sanctions …”
    Yes, the US has already introduced its sanctions on the “Putin’s inner circle” of about 16 individuals. Threatening further sanctions is, of course, a good indication of intentions, but the issue here are not the US sanctions against Russia then the EU sanctions against Russia. Before the latest confrontation in Ukraine, the US-Russia annual trade was only about E30B, whilst the EU Russia trade was E300B (this is the two way trade value). To get EU to introduce sanctions and penalize itself (its own businesses) there had to be a really vile act – voila, a civilian plane full of EU citizens shot-down plus a huge pump-up in the media of a so called “Putin’s missile”.

    Only an idiot, or a Government employee, would see this MSM screaming as unorganized. This was a textbook false-flag, but I do not have much respect for the Western audiences which swallow such shallow BS. I guess, the US people care much more about who did 911 (was it the Deep State) than who shot down an airliner full of Europeans and Asians.

    Now your arguments are like of a little kid: a Congressman who was informed about the plot to shoot-down a civilian airliner, blah, blah… This is why Ronald Thomas West is not even bothering to reply to you.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    , @Flower
  87. @Kiza

    Now your arguments are like of a little kid: a Congressman who was informed about the plot to shoot-down a civilian airliner, blah, blah… This is why Ronald Thomas West is not even bothering to reply to you.

    Yes. If Flower’s not a troll, then he is simply as obtuse as they come. All he does is summarize the false-flag argument, while pretending that he’s refuting it. I think I’ll ignore him too.

    • Replies: @Flower
  88. Flower says:

    So, you admit that your “murder for sanctions” angle is bullshit. Well, you’re making progress.

    “Now your arguments are like of a little kid: a Congressman who was informed about the plot to shoot-down a civilian airliner, blah, blah… This is why Ronald Thomas West is not even bothering to reply to you.” Hey, air-head, this was YOUR argument. You are the one saying that premeditation and collusion among, what was it you said, oh yeah, “organized in a specific way, through the main-stream media and politicians’ statements.” I tried to get you to actually THINK about the issue, not go into some drawn out bag of bullshit like Ron Thomas West. So answer the question, how you would react if someone asked you to help murder 200+ people? Funny you can’t seem to answer anything, or follow a conversation, but like the typical brain dead Amerikan today, you’ve had your ears tickled and it makes you FEEL better, so it must be right. You won’t THINK about it because you’ve been trained to “go with your gut feelings” because feeling is much easier than thinking.
    Now, answer the GD question, if you dare.

  89. Flower says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    Oh Seamus, have you done that ALL your life? I picture you sitting in 3rd grade Arithmetic class having a hard time understanding long division because it requires you to think, so you just choose to ignore it. Long division doesn’t make you FEEL good, so it must be bullshit, right? Oh I can’t wait till you cross paths with Calculus. No wonder you are, and will continue to be, as dumb as a back of rocks.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  90. annamaria says:

    Mir. or Mrs. Flower, Unz Review is an exceptional site that provides a forum for intelligent discussion. If you want to be on a top of the discussion, please deliver well-infromed arguments. Otherwise, the rude and offensive character of your posts could give an impression that they were written by an ordinary provocateur.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
  91. Bill says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Are you able to read your own text? Your theory that redirecting flights from their normal route so that they fly over active combat zones is part of the Ukraine’s air traffic control SOP.

    What the hell is wrong with you?

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Sam Shama
  92. @Bill

    Well I’m afraid it’s clear what’s wrong with you. (Maybe its a common infection spread over the www). You don’t read what others say. Where have I said or accepted that the pilot obeyed a redirection from the normal route over a war zone by Ukrainian air traffic control or acknowledged that the pilot would have known that he was being redirected over a war zone?

  93. Sam Shama says:

    Wiz just leaves his droppings all over he place, and back he comes clucking for more feed.

    Its a case of Avian ‘Flu. He is firmly convinced of his invincible authority on everything, and oh! does he just adore himself?! Forsooth to the wind begone, grammar and punctuation.

    Ignore him.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
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