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Erdogan Loses the Battle, But the War Is Far from Over
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Following 6 hours of grueling negotiations, including direct negotiations between Putin and Erdogan, the parties have finally agreed to the following:

  1. A ceasefire will begin at midnight.
  2. Russia and Turkey will jointly patrol the M4 highway (M5 now belongs to Damascus). A 6km buffer zone will have to be created and enforced on each side of M4 by the March 15th (see map above)
  3. Both parties have reaffirmed their commitment to Syria’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
  4. Both parties have reaffirmed their commitment to a create the conditions for a return of the refugees.
  5. Both parties have reaffirmed that this conflict as no military solution.

Furthermore, there was a lot of things which were left unsaid, but understood by all:

  1. The recent military gains of the Syrian military will not be disputed and otherwise challenged. The new line of contact has now become official.
  2. Russia and Syria will continue to fight all the organizations which the UNSC has declared “terrorist” (al-Nusra, al-Qaeda, and all their franchises irrespective of any “rebranding”).
  3. Moscow remains as committed to the protection of the legitimate Syrian government as ever.

From the above we can also deduce the following:

  1. Erdogan’s Blitzkrieg has failed. Initially, the Turkish drones inflicted major damage on the Syrian forces, but the latter adapted extremely quickly which resulted in what the Russians jokingly referred to as “dronopad” which can roughly be translated as “dronerain”.
  2. The Turks were clearly shocked by the Russian decision to bomb a Turkish battalion. What apparently happened is this: two Syrian Su-22 (old Soviet aircraft) bombed the convoy to force it to stop, then a pair of Russian Su-34 (the most modern Russian all-weather supersonic medium-range fighter-bomber/strike aircraft) dropped heavy ordinance on the convoy and surrounding buildings killing scores of Turkish special forces). Both sides decided to “blame” the Syrians, but they don’t fly Su-34, and everybody knows that.
  3. Erdogan understood that he either had to double down or declare victory and leave. He wisely chose the latter, at least as a temporary measure.
  4. Neither NATO nor the EU showed any signs of wanting to join Turkey’s war on Syria (because that is what we are really dealing with here), and neither did the US. Since I cannot call that decision “wise” (there is no wisdom of any kind left in western regimes), I will call it simply “prudent” as Russia was not about to allow Turkey to invade Syria.
  5. Iran, Hezbollah, and Libya all declared their willingness to fight the Turks for as long as needed and anywhere where needed.

In spite of these developments, it is pretty clear that internal Turkish politics will continue to force Erdogan to engage in what is politely called “neo-Ottoman” policies aka phantom pains for a lost empire. The obvious solution for Russia is to further arm the Syrians, especially with modernized versions of the Pantsir SAMs which have proven very effective against drones, MLRS rockets and even mortars.

The main Syrian problem is a lack of numbers. Until more forces are equipped, trained, deployed and engaged, the Russians need to provide a much stronger air defense capabilities to Syria. The Syrians have done miracles with old, frankly outdated, Soviet equipment (which, considering its age and lack of proper maintenance, has performed superbly), but now they need much better Russian gear to defend not only against Turkey, but also against the Axis of Kindness (US+Israel+KSA).

Furthermore, it is my opinion that the Russian task force in Khmeimim and Tartus is too big and not well balanced. Khmeimin needs many more Su-25SM3 and a few more Su-35S/Su-30SM to protect them. The naval base at Tartus lacks ASW capabilities, as does much of the Russian naval task force in the eastern Mediterranean. And while the Russian Navy has a number of ships with “Kalibr” cruise missiles onboard, their numbers are, again, inadequate, which means that the Russian Aerospace Forces need to deploy as many Kalibr-capable aircraft in southern Russia as possible. Both Tartus and Khmeimim are pretty close to the Idlib province (that is also were the “good terrorist” tried to strike Russian forces from which, thanks to the successful Syrian offensive, they now cannot do anymore!). This suggests to me that Russia ought to declare a larger exclusive air control zone over both of this locations, and beef up the numbers of missiles and launchers the Russian air defenses will have to enforce it.

Finally, I think that Erdogan has outlived his utility for Russia (and for Turkey, for that matter!). He clearly is a loose cannon which, according to some rumors, even the Turkish public opinion is getting fed up with. Russia should not neglect that public opinion. Then there are the Libyans, “Field Marshal” Khalifa Belqasim Haftar, whose forces seems to have been extremely successful against the Turkish forces in Libya. The Russians are, quietly, supporting Haftar who, while not exactly an ideal ally for Russia, can prove useful. What the Russians need to do next is to explain two things to Erdogan and his ministers:

  1. If you attack again in Syria, you will be defeated, possibly worse than the first time around
  2. If you mess with our geostrategic interests, we will mess with yours

The only party which the Russians should never arm are the Kurds, who are even more unreliable than Erdogan and who are basically an Israeli asset to destabilize Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Russia should, however, talk to the Kurds (all factions) and convince them to accept a large cultural autonomy inside Syria, Iraq and Iran. Turkey could be added to this list, but only once a trustworthy government comes to power in Ankara. Under no circumstances should Russia arm the Kurds.

Right now, the best Russian ally in the region is Syria. This is the country which Russia needs to make safe by creating a truly modern air defense network. The Russians have already done a lot towards this goal, including integrating their combat management and EW systems, but that is not enough. While Russian aid and Syrian skills have forced the Israelis to conduct mostly symbolic and ineffective air strikes, often with missiles shot from outside the Syrian airspace, and while many (most) Israeli missiles were destroyed by the Syrian air defenses, it is pretty clear that both the Turks and the Israelis feel that if they launch missiles from long distance they are relatively safe. That perception needs to be changed, not only to force the Turks and the Israelis to shoot from even further and accept even more losses, but also to show the US, NATO and Europe that the Syrian air defenses are capable of making anything short of a massive attack pointless (and a massive attack costly).

We should also note that the Turkish propaganda machine has been very effective. Yes, a lot of what they said was self-evidently “feelgood” nonsense (thousands of dead Syrians, hundred of tanks, etc.) , but their footage of a Turkish drone striking a Pantsir in Libya did, at least initially, impress those who don’t understand air defense warfare (destroying a single isolated first-generation Pantsir is not that hard, especially from right above it, but destroying a Pantsir position in which launchers protect each other is quite different. And if that Pantsir position is protected “below” (AA+MANPADS) and “above” (medium to long range SAMs), then this becomes extremely difficult).

This war is not over and it won’t be until Erdogan is removed from power. Frankly, Russia needs a stable and trustworthy partner on her southern border, and that won’t happen until the Turks ditch Erdogan. The problem here is that God only knows who might succeed him, should the Gulenists seize power, that will not be good for Russia either.

And here we come back to the murder of General Suleimani. Frankly, the Iranians are spot on: the two things which made the Middle-East into the bloody mess it has been for decades are 1) Israel and 2) the US. The end goal for the former is a one-state solution, whether accepted or imposed. The intermediate goal ought to be to get the US out of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and, possibly, Turkey. Erdogan is crazy and desperate enough (not to mention vengeful) to at least bring this intermediate goal one step closer by alienating the US and NATO. So the Russian game plan ought to be obvious: first, use military means to “contain Erdogan inside Turkey” and, next, engage in long term efforts to prepare for a post-Erdogan Turkey. Then let the SOB destroy himself.

I don’t believe that peace is possible between a secular Syria and a Takfiri-backing Turkey. And I sure don’t believe that the Takfiris can be remolded into any kind of “democratic opposition”. Thus the real end-goal for Russia and Syria will always be military victory, not “peace” (assuming that concept of “peace with the Takfiris” makes any sense at all, which it doesn’t). The Russians know that, even if they won’t admit it.

For the time being, what we see is the first phase of the Turkey-Syria war ending and for the next couple of weeks we shall see a transition into some other phase which will probably be one in which, surprise surprise, the Turks fail to remove all the Takfiri nutcases from Idlib which will then give Syria and Russia a legal reason to take direct action again. In theory, at least, Erdogan could decide to pour the Turkish armed forces across the border, but the closer they will get to Khmeimim and/or Tartus, the more dangerous the stakes for Turkey and for Erdogan personally.

The key to success for the Axis of Resistance is to make Syria too tough to crack. I hope that Russia, Iran, Syria and Iraq will continue to work together, hopefully with Chinese aid, to create such a Syria.

• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Russia, Syria 
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  1. SteveK9 says:

    ‘hopefully with Chinese aid’

    That seems to be a long time coming.

  2. Smith says:

    Putin is CLEARLY dragging this conflict out just for more tomatoes.

    SAA is already back bombing turks in Idlib, the ceasefire might as well be non-existent.

    • Replies: @Shams
  3. Stan says:

    An alternate view of events in Syria.

    Western propaganda against Turkey

    The Turkish General Staff is today persuaded – rightly or wrongly, that is not the question – that after having destroyed Syria, the Pentagon is going to attack its homeland, Turkey. In the midst of urgency, panic and despair, it has devised a response consisting in threatening all its NATO allies with imminent catastrophe if they let Turkey be destroyed and offering them another battlefield, as far away as possible, in Libya [3].

  4. Alfred says:

    An alternate view of events in Syria

    I have a lot of respect for Thierry Meyssan. He is either in Syria or Lebanon because he knows that a multiplicity of foreign intelligence services would dearly like to eliminate him.

    I agree with him entirely that the USA would like to turn Turkey into a cauldron like Syria. What is new to me is that the article explains how the Turkish General Staff is trying to divert the attention of the USA by embroiling itself in Libya.

    It is a bit like a bullied kid in the playground trying to get his tormentors to move their attentions to an even smaller kid nearby.

    One thing is certain. Erdogan would happily start WW3 if it kept him in power a little longer. 🙁

    Very interesting. It certainly makes sense.

  5. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:

    I cracked at “Axis of Kindness”

  6. Can anyone believe that Erdogan will live up to its promises to secure the safe zone and neutralise al Qaeda any more this time than it did the last time it made promises, at Sochi? Of course not, because everyone knows that Erdogan has no intention of keeping its promises. But apart from being vicious and greedy it is also stupid, which is why invasion of Syria loses it more territory. Had it taken out al Qaeda as it promised at Sochi Idlib would have been under its de facto control for years to come and could have been Turkified like Afrin and de facto annexed if not de jure annexed like Hatay (given as a bribe by France in 1939 to keep the Ataturkist ethnic cleansing fascist regime out of WWII). Instead it tried to grab everything, and each time it does so it ends up losing control of more territory. This is basically what Erdogan’s Ottoman ancestors did through the 19th and early 20th centuries. Today’s Ottoman state has apparently not learnt even a molecule of a lesson from that, so the whole circus will be repeated again.

  7. @Stan

    I see no reason why Turkey should not be destroyed. Eliminating Turkey will be the third best thing to happen to West Asia, right after eliminating Saudi Barbaria and the racist fascist apartheid colonial zionist settler regime in Occupied Palestine.

  8. vot tak says:

    “2. The Turks were clearly shocked by the Russian decision to bomb a Turkish battalion. What apparently happened is this: two Syrian Su-22 (old Soviet aircraft) bombed the convoy to force it to stop, then a pair of Russian Su-34 (the most modern Russian all-weather supersonic medium-range fighter-bomber/strike aircraft) dropped heavy ordinance on the convoy and surrounding buildings killing scores of Turkish special forces). Both sides decided to “blame” the Syrians, but they don’t fly Su-34, and everybody knows that.”

    Curious what the source is of this claim being made by saker, as the Russian government has specifically said they did not carry out any air strikes in the area the Turks got bombed. Is this source used by saker more credible than the Russian government?

  9. @vot tak

    That is good question, Vot tak. It appears that saker, occasionally, has the habit of fabricating things just to make his arguments stronger. This appears to be one of those.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  10. Simply put, Erdogan is suffering from PTSD caused by the uprising and the coup against him a few years ago! His narcissistic desire of becoming Ottoman II won’t materialize!

  11. Poco says:

    Whoever is the Whitest will prevail. Debate is unnecessary. Whites always prevai for the last 500 years.

  12. @Poco

    Except in Afghanistan and Vietnam…

    Prevail is also a vague concept, as no one can really ever prevail in a tug of war. Muslims occupied Europe for 700 years.

    • Replies: @Rich
  13. @vot tak

    My God, who would ever question anything the Kremlin or Saint Putin say’s. That would be sacrilegious.

    • Agree: L.K
    • LOL: bluedog
    • Troll: vot tak
    • Replies: @Johnny Walker Read
  14. sally says:

    Occupation of Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey, by private Mobster wealth, thru proxy governments not only violate the desires of middle eastern locals, but also of 300,000,000 governed Americans, and it leaves whatever peace that might be to IRIS [Iran, Russia, Iraq, Syria].
    According to a video ( Nikolay Vavilov, former Russian Expert on Chinese domestic policy .. is said to have claimed following 7 things are related and I added the 8th and 9th.
    1. Dmitry Medvelov, Former President of Russia, had close ties with Democratic Party in America. recently resigned.
    2. Chinese constitutional parliament special session indefinitely delayed<=virus policy and actual virus effect.
    3. Mentions Current leaders of Komsomal PM Likeqiang
    4. Jan 6, NYT called the virus "mysterious Disease.
    5. Jan 2, Taiwanese General was killed
    6 Jan 3 head of gen staff of Iran Soleimani was killed
    7. Jan 3 head of the Kurdish intelligence Metin Arsain was killed.
    8. Feb 29, Taliban USA agreement.
    9. Mar 6, MBS arrests 3 members of the Royal family <=according to the link
    <= Prince Ahmed bin Abdulaziz, King Salman's younger brother, and
    Pricen Mohammed bin Nyef (MBN), the King's nephew were among them.
    <= Prince Khaled, in political asylum in Germany in 2013, is said [to have said]
    that if Ahmed and Prince Muqrin bin Abdulaziz, another royal, were to unite ranks,
    then "99 percent of the members of the royal family, the security services
    and the army would stand behind them".
    <= apparently the arrest came following British Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab vist?
    somehow do these things explain the Russian reluctance.

  15. Beautiful article, right to the heart of the whole problem. Mr. Putin is no joke. President Assad will go down in history, not as a Foot-Note but the President who Beat back the whole Imperialist World with there Allies Russia Iran Iraq Now Some Of The Freedom fighters from Yemen & Palestine.

    • Agree: Herald
  16. vot tak says:
    @Alfred Anderson

    It looks like the info saker is using, detailing how the attack on the Turks was carried out, originates from a Turkish analyst. I’ll post more about this later when I have some more time.

  17. Saker’s Christmas wish list is coming in earlier this year.

  18. Mike P says:

    That is an interesting perspective. However, assuming the Turks indeed feel threatened by the U.S. and its NATO lackeys, would the obvious answer not be that Turkey seek a closer alliance with Russia and Iran? After all, they are in the same boat, being constantly harassed and threatened by the usual suspects. I don’t see how picking fights with and alienating Russia is going to help Turkey.

  19. Erdogan is in with the ZUS and Israel and ZBritain and NATO and the Saudis in their goal of the destruction of Syria and in the creation of their terrorist proxies and so Erdogan can not be trusted at all, even after Putin saved his life in the coup this bastard bit the hand that saved his life.

    Turkey has been one of the main supply lines for AL CIADA aka ISIS and all off shoots thereof and Ankara is one of the main CIA nests in the Mideast directing the war against Syria and Erdogan is not through, he is a killer , working with killers and Russia will have their hands full dealing with this bastard!

    God bless Russia and the Syrian people and Assad!

    • Replies: @Herald
    , @Morus
  20. What is the snotty enclave terrorist bit below the M4 going to do?

    • Agree: Mike P
  21. @Johnny Walker Read

    Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Mark Twain
    Have a great day comrade.

    • Disagree: Desert Fox
    • Troll: bluedog, Robjil
  22. Rich says:
    @Just Passing Through

    The US is still in Afghanistan. The US had already pulled out of Vietnam when the N Vietnamese defeated their fellow Vietnamese in their war. Had the US remained, S Vietnam would never have fallen. Though true that there were some Muslim forces in Europe for 700 years, their bit of conquest shrunk every year until they barely held any territory for the last two hundred or so years of their “occupation”. Of course, you could legitimately argue that as long as Muslims hold Constantinople, they still occupy Euro territory, but maybe that’s Putin’s end game, finally freeing that once great city and surrounding territories. That would make him one of Christendom’s greatest heroes and probably a saint in the Orthodox Church.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  23. Rahan says:

    I see some people still fall back too easily into the old habit of underestimating “shithole countries” including Turkey. Let’s have a reality check, shall we?

    Ever since the West’s upward trajectory stalled circa the year 2000, and began degenerating circa 2005, first slowly, then faster, the past 300 years are slowly becoming undone, in geopolitical terms.

    Before the Industrial Revolution plucked western whites out of world history and made them technologically superior all-conquering alien invaders, the world was divided into two groups:
    1) Technologically backward civilizations easy picking for those with modern tech: various Black Africa tribes and kingdoms, and the Neolithic empires and confederations of the American continent,
    plus the shamanic tribes and kingdoms of Siberia
    2) the “modern civilizations” with basic tech parity: West+Russia+Ottoman Empire+Persia+India+China. At the time of Peter the Great, this was the “multipolar world” of the day, which was a norm basically always. At any given time in history every major civilization is on the same tech level as everyone else, except when someone achieves a quantum leap and for example shifts to bronze from stone, or to iron from bronze, or to muskets from crossbows, and so on.

    The Industrial Revolution was such an event, but it’s over. The “passionarity” of the white West, per Gumilyov ( has been used up. Now, is this a natural event, or has (((someone))) helped suffocate the West and bring it to a soft landing back into “normal banality”–that’s a different matter. Can this be reversed–that’s also a different matter.

    Here and now, on the level of fifth generation fighter planes, or jet airliners, or space capability, or ballistic and cruise missiles, or atomics for peace and war–the old civilizational centers are all back in the gay, and pre-Industrial revolution parity has been more or less achieved once more.

    Today’s Russia, Persia, Turkey, India/Pakistan, and China, can do almost everything the West can. Also this historical cycle has newcomers such as Japan, Korea, Brazil, South Africa, and potential newcomers such as Mexico, Indonesia, the Philippines, Egypt. Who knows, maybe even Nigeria, 30 years from now.

    Tech parity, in every sense that counts beyond “muh cellphone and muh laptop”, has been achieved once more by every major civilization across the globe. The West stalled, then took a dozen steps back, while the rest took a dozen steps forward, and everybody met in the middle. Now we wait either for the next jump from an unexpected place, possibly even a posthuman place, or a new “cyberpunk global middle ages”.

    Turkey is no longer “just some shithole”. It has the industrial capacity of at least Italy, and the military capacity (minus nukes) of at least France. If Turkey invades Europe today, in a non-nuclear scenario, it’ll totally reach Vienna yet again, before the invasion stalls.

    If Russia invades Europe today, it’ll totally reach the French border before the invasion stalls.

    We’re back to the pre-Napoleonic power situation, geopolitically, with twice as many power centers this time around. So let’s all learn to put aside our prejudices from 30 years ago when the world was way, way different, and start looking at events again through reality goggles.

    Even Mexico has the industrial capacity of half of Europe, and it doesn’t even control its own territory. Right now, if it wants to risk nukes, it can take back California and New Mexico. It can’t afford to, because it’ll lose its main economic pillar–the US, but the capacity is there. Civilization decay of the US has made it possible. And Turkey is today much more capable than Mexico.

  24. The US needs to end trying to run every country – starting first with the USA itself. The mockingbird press is the best weapon the military has, unfortunately people can’t see through the propaganda. They sure dislike Erdogan, which probably means he’s got a bit of humanity in him which is unacceptable in our algorithm driven nightmare.

    The CIA usually prefers “elections” to hide evidence of any coup. The US sells weapons for profit, Russia sells weapons for profit, Michael Flynn sells his body by the hour – one of the leading professions for made men.

  25. Jake says:

    Turks are bad enough as is, but add any type ‘fundamentalist’ or ‘rigid’ Mohammedanism to the mix, and Turks are rather pure in their desire to produce Hell on earth for everybody not a Moslem Turk.

    The evil Anglo-Zionist Empire Part 1 – the British Empire – perhaps showed its mid-Victorian evil best by saving the Ottoman Empire.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  26. Turk 152 says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    I am not sure whether or not you have turned on the news in the last 30 years, but if you are really interested in making the world a better place and eliminating terrorism, then you would need to start by destroying DC and the Virginia suburbs first.

    Do you really think that destroying Turkey would make any difference at all? The MIC would just move on to the next target, you would just be inundated with MSM stories about the evil dictator in Bulgaria or Khazikstan that needs to be destroyed.

  27. melpol says:

    Strong Syrian armies are evolving and will soon be a match for the IDF and its Jewish generals. Egypt will also become a threatening force if President el- Sisi no longer is funded by the West. Iran with the help of Hezbollah could lob thousands of Mortar shells into Jewish territory. Millions of Jews have been alerted for a potential massacre. They might be given a few months to get out of town. Six million Jewish homes in the US will be asked to provide rentals to house the six million fleeing Jews. Netanyahu along with Woody Allen and Polansky will be aboard the first arrivals.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
  28. Smith says:
    @Turk 152

    Islamic turks are very loud mouth dogs, but it seems they will only go to war with NATO’s blessings (hence their blackmailing EU via Greece).

    Russia also wants Turkey to remain in order to serve as a rogue state that pisses off all continental Europe NATO countries.

    US/ZOG needs Turkey to pressure Russia.

    If we don’t count the US in this game, and only continental Europe and Russia, Turkey would have been safely partioned by continental european powers (if it would have been if the Anglo evils did not stop Russia in the Crimean war).

    A unified or friendly continental Europe (from Spain to Russia) would be the world’s top superpower, as it was the dream of many european conquerors (Teutonic order, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler), yet it was always spoiled by anglos.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
    , @PlasticGangsta
  29. @Jake

    How on earth could you overlook His Majesty’s desire to create a homeland in Palestine for the Jews in return for sending America into World War I? That must surely be the lowest that perfidious Albion ever sank. America and Britain, two helpless simpletons.

  30. Jason Liu says:

    Both sides lean right-wing authoritarian and should be working together, tbh. Go bomb some liberal countries instead

    • LOL: Talha
  31. Turk 152 says:

    European powerlessness in the modern era is a direct consequence of the barbarity their own leadership in WW1 and WW2. The animals of the past century have clearly been the Europeans/US in which the number of deaths by Islamic countries are trivial in comparison.


    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Smith
  32. El Dato says:

    One must smoke major gorillas for this to sound plausible.

  33. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    They’re not exactly powerless; they completely wrecked Iraq for instance.

    the number of deaths by Islamic countries are trivial in comparison.

    It is good to keep these things in perspective since people seem to forget even recent history in living memory. The industrial-scale slaughter on the European continent in those wars was so vast and so comprehensive that they were shipping in able-bodied brown and black men by the thousands from their outer colonies to help kill other Europeans. Nothing we’ve witnessed in recent times in the Muslim world comes anywhere close and much of it was instigated from external interference or outright invasion as opposed to those two wars which were wholly European in origin (well, except the Pacific theater).

    Hell, some Europeans actually fled to the ME as refugees:
    “As German and Italian troops occupied Greece, tens of thousands of people fled by sea to refugee camps in the Middle East.”


    • Thanks: Turk 152
    • Replies: @Alfred
  34. Mike P says:
    @Turk 152

    You are perfectly correct of course.

    I take it you are Turkish and thus probably closer to the events than most of us. Do you have an explanation for Erdogan’s actions? I find it difficult to make sense of them.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
  35. The war is not over until Assad regains control of the oil fields in the East of Syria and fulfills the United Nations Security Council resolution 497, adopted unanimously on 17 December 1981, which declared that the Israeli Golan Heights Law, which effectively annexed the Golan Heights, is “null and void and without international legal effect” and further calls on Israel to rescind its action. Wonna be sultan might not survive in power, or even just survive, long enough for that.

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @James Speaks
  36. Russia and Turkey will jointly patrol the M4 highway (M5 now belongs to Damascus). A 6km buffer zone will have to be created and enforced on each side of M4 by the March 15th (see map above)

    It’s safe to say that this part of agreement will NOT be implemented. I’m not surprised that Saker decided to look over it. Saker does not feel comfortable criticizing Putin.

    But the fact remains: Russian president devotes a lot of his time and energy into dead-end diplomacy, that produces abortions like Minsk 2014/2015 or Sochi 2018.

    • Replies: @Desert Fox
    , @Alfred
  37. Turk 152 says:
    @Mike P

    Thank you.

    Erdogan is Muslim Brotherhood and his erratic behavior is quite predictable when you understand that he is acting in their best interests and not Turkeys.

    • Replies: @Talha
  38. @Felix Keverich

    The ZUS and Israels and ZBritian’s and Turkey’s created terrorists will never stop their war against Syria as the head terrorists who dwell in NYC and Tel Aviv and DC and London and Ankara, will not give up their goal of a zionist greater Israel.

    The fake war on terror psyop was created with the destruction of the WTC by Israel and traitors in the ZUS government, which was blamed on the Arabs and then the zionists sent America to war in the Middle east to fight and die for zionist Israel and tragedy continues with no end in sight and there will be no end to it as long as zionists control America.

    Zionism has destroyed America!

  39. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    Good thing is that Turks can simply vote him out next cycle, he didn’t win the last one by an exact landslide.

    I personally think the coup attempt really screwed with his head, his decisions have been getting more irresponsible as time progresses. His leadership probably jumped the shark around 2017/2018.

    So, who do you think is a good replacement?


    • Replies: @Turk 152
  40. Ian Smith says:

    ‘Today’s Russia, Persia, Turkey, India/Pakistan, and China, can do almost everything the West can.’

    Pakistan should knock it off with the cousin marriage:

    And Indians with the poo flinging:

    …before they talk about how they can do almost anything the West can.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  41. bluedog says:
    @vot tak

    Hmm and just what did you expect, that Russia would come out and say yes we bombed your forces killed your troops for then Turkey would have to respond in like manner,so they both saved face now Turkey won’t have to take it any further.Thought you knew how politics are played on the world stage/!!!

  42. @Ian Smith

    Hate to spoil your story, but the whole political process in the US boils down to poo flinging.

  43. Turk 152 says:

    Imamoglu, the Istanbul Mayor (for others), would be my first thought as a replacement. I was pleasantly surprised that Erodgan respected his election.

    His power was at his peak during Obama’s first term. I dont see as many women wearing headscarves as back then which I see as a good barometer.

    • Replies: @Talha
  44. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    I was pleasantly surprised that Erodgan respected his election.

    Well, didn’t they ask for a re-election, but it turned out even more in Imamgolu’s favor?

    Turkey’s democratic framework certainly isn’t perfect but it is heads and tails more transparent than most Arab countries where the government is passed down through a family line (talking about both monarchies and dictatorships) or where the dude gets elected by an embarrassing 98%. I think Erdogan got like less than 55% last time. If so, even if he drops by 10% based on all the issues plaguing him, this is the end of the line for him.

    I dont see as many women wearing headscarves as back then

    Interesting – I wonder how that will play out in the coming decade:


  45. Agent76 says:

    Dec 26, 2019 China, Russia and Iran do naval ‘power rebalancing’ in the Gulf of #Oman

    Washington panics as de facto anti-imperial group – #China #Russia and #Iran – does a ‘power rebalancing’ exercise in the Gulf of #Oman.

    Dec 29, 2019 US Encirclement of Russia l

    Far from merely defending its own territory and its interests within it – the US has embarked on a process of encircling and strangling other nations around the globe – including the nuclear-armed Russian Federation.

  46. FB says: • Website

    Turkey is no longer “just some shithole”. It has the industrial capacity of at least Italy, and the military capacity (minus nukes) of at least France…

    Utter nonsense…

    You obviously know nothing about the technological capabilities of present-day nations…

    Turkey is in no way comparable to Italy, which in fact has built advanced satellites for Turkey [because Turkey can’t build them on its own, much less launch them]…

    Turkey has ZERO real aerospace industry…they cannot build either civil or military aircraft [very few countries can, including even China if we include good jet engines in building aircraft…]

    Turkey is very very far down the pecking order and can in no way be compared to even Iran, which does have its own very capable missiles and other key technology capabilities…

    The highest achievement of Turkey’s ‘military-industrial’ capability has been to build some very basic small UAVs…which are limited to line of sight radio control, like model airplanes…

    See my post about Turkey’s drones here…

    Turkey has no capability to design and manufacture even the ultralight aircraft engines which are used in those drones…hence they buy these engines that thousands of hobby pilots buy and fly in their ultralight aircraft…

    You are completely uninformed about how aerospace and military technology in general actually works…

    Here’s how things really look…military power is of course dependent directly on a nation’s ability to master difficult technologies involving atmospheric flight, spaceflight and everything that goes into that…propulsion, materials science, chemistry, nuclear etc…

    Two countries have OVERWHELMING dominance in this sphere…so much so that the rest almost don’t even count…we all know which two countries…

    China is gaining fast, but people are ignorant of the fact that China has been working steadily on this for SEVENTY YEARS…China was the fifth nation to launch a satellite, beating the UK by a year…that was in 1970, exactly 50 years ago…three years before that it, in 1967, it already tested a thermonuclear device [hydrogen bomb], beating the French by a year…

    India got the hydrogen bomb about twenty years ago…Pakistan still does not have that capability…it is important to distinguish here between a fission bomb like the Hiroshima bomb, and hydrogen bombs which are vastly more powerful…

    Bottom line is that your oversimplification of these important technological facts paints a completely wrong picture that has nothing to do with reality…Turkey is nowhere when it comes to real military-industrial technology capability…

    I will note here that you do at least identify the very real fact that the popular notion of ‘technology’ being mostly about chips and electronics is quite correct…these are consumer technologies that are at best of peripheral importance to DIFFICULT technologies like aerospace and nuclear…[and in fact almost unnecessary…see the Apollo program]

    Th entire electronic sector has practically no relevance to anything except the modern couch potato lifestyle…moreover, these ‘technologies’ are dominated by pissant Asian producers like South Korea and Taiwan…

    North Korea is decades ahead of the South technologically…in REAL technologies like nuclear and aerospace…

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Wielgus
  47. @Rich

    That would be wonderful.

    But doesn’t seem likely during Putin’s lifetime, given that Turkey’s population is slowly growing while Russia’s population is steadily shrinking and becoming slightly more Muslim.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  48. @Rahan

    Sounds about right re Turkey invading Europe within twenty-five years. They won’t necessarily be stopped at Vienna this time, either.

    There are fewer actual white Austrians each year, with a median age that is quite high.

    By contrast, the Muslim population of Austria grows each year and has a lower median age. Perhaps most relevant for our scenario, Turks specifically likely will constitute the largest single racial group/ nationality in the Vienna area at the end of those 25 years. They’re already approaching a majority of kids in Vienna’s schools.

    Just a waiting game for Turkey, even if it will be erdogan’s successor rather than Erdogan who decides the time has come to finish the unfinished business from the late 1600s.

  49. Robjil says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    Vicky Nuland got Zukraine with cookies.

    It was the cheapest deal since the Dutch got Manhattan.

    The British stole Manhattan later from the Dutch.

    Crimea went home. It did want to be part of Zukraine cookie land.

    Crimea going home to Russia was the greatest defeat of ZUS since 12.23.1913.

    It was a real Ode of Joy moment in time and for all of humanity.

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @Desert Fox
  50. FB says: • Website

    Okay…so a couple of very knowledgeable geopolitical commentators have now weighed in on the results of the Moscow summit…

    Let’s take a look at those, but it essentially boils down to…Remove Kebab…

    Elijah Magnier a respected Beirut-based journalist who always seems to come through with extremely well-placed and credible sources in Syria, Iran, Iraq and elsewhere in the region describes the meeting outcome thus…

    Putin helps Erdogan climb down from the tree with a ceasefire agreement

    A well-informed source said that ‘Erdogan wanted a ceasefire in Idlib but could not announce it himself because it would have cost him dearly domestically. He lost the war when he failed to recover Saraqeb and recover the entire 70-kilometre-long highway linking Aleppo to Damascus, known as the M5. He wanted Putin to bring him down from the tree. The Russian President understood and saved his business partner from humiliation.’

    Scott Ritter, the former US Marine intel officer and UN weapons inspector was less charitable…

    This week’s meeting between Presidents Putin and Erdogan in Moscow was cast as preventing a war between Russia and Turkey in Syria. War, however, was never on the horizon. Putin called Erdogan’s bluff, and the Turk folded.

    New Putin-Erdogan deal is sugar-coating the Turks’ surrender

    Both of these astute observers agree on the important main points…that Turkey’s military intervention flopped in the face of strong SAA determination and Russia’s control of the skies over Idlib…the oft-touted ‘number two Nato power’ was basically humiliated in its attempt to roll back the SAA, which has liberated over half the terrorist-held Idlib pocket since the operation started in December…

    As many of us here correctly pointed out days before the Moscow meeting, the key issue is the two important transport corridors in Idlib, the M4 and M5 highways…the M5 is totally in Syrian hands and normal traffic has resumed…under the watchful eye of Russian military police…

    This is a huge leap forward for a liberated Syria…all of the territory liberated thus far, over 200 villages and towns in all, is now cemented as part of the Putin-Erdogan deal…

    The M4 highway is the main point of the agreement…the SAA and allies have been pushing from the south to retake this crucial road also, dealing the jihadists a death blow, and opening the corridor from the coastal Latakia province, where the Russian air and naval bases are situated, to Aleppo, Syria’s second city and its industrial heart…which was liberated [against the shrill wailing of the axis of kindness and its headchopper spawn] back in December 2016…

    Reclaiming these two major highways is essential to Syrian sovereignty…and Russia will have no less, as many of us rightly pointed out last week before the meeting…the clearing of the M4 has now been accomplished with this agreement…

    The above map shows the agreed six kilometer buffer zone on either side of the M4 highway, which is still in jihadist hands…it is to be jointly patrolled by Russian and Turkish forces, in the same way as the Kurdish territory in the Northeast, where these joint patrols have been ongoing…

    The big question everyone [including Saker] is asking, is whether Turkey will honor its agreement this time round and actually make this M4 buffer a reality…?

    The answer of course is that it doesn’t matter either way…if the Turks once again fail, as they did from the get-go of the September 2018 Sochi agreement where both of these highways were supposed to be cleared of terrorists under Turkey’s supervision [but in fact turned into Turkey coddling its terrorist spawn]…then the SAA, with Russian air power, will simply take it by force…and take Idlib city as well, which is just west of Syrian controlled Saraqib by about 15 km…

    This is the last terrorist bastion…Erdogan will be unable to do anything about Syria regaining this crucial territory, as both Magnier and Ritter rightly conclude…the mini-sultan is in Remove Kebab territory for good…

    As for the liver-eating, headchopper scum still festering in what remains of their Idlib pocket…well…I think the writing is on the wall, as Galloping George Galloway makes clear in this incredible Jeremiad…[Go Georgie Boy…]

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  51. Talha says:

    There are fewer actual white Austrians each year, with a median age that is quite high.

    Yeah, but pretty soon Europeans will be fully capable of full spectrum nerd warfare with AI robots and killer drones…so probably not going to happen.


  52. Bookish1 says:

    Pardon me sir but did whites prevail in the Napoleanic wars or in ww1 or ww2? No, whites lost heavily and and we are far from recovering if we ever do.

  53. @FB

    With the US staying out of it, Turkey could right now militarily defeat the combined Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, and Switzerland.

    The military of formerly-great formerly-Britain is no great shakes either.

    • Replies: @Desert Fox
    , @FB
    , @Smith
  54. @Robjil

    Agree completely.

    • Thanks: Robjil
  55. FB says: • Website

    …Turkey could right now militarily defeat the combined Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, and Switzerland.

    And we have that on the ‘authority’ of complete retard ‘Radical Center’…and which is why we just saw the Turkish invasion of Syria crushed by the SAA…they couldn’t even take and hold Saraqib town…and Erdo scrambles to Moscow to plead for mercy…

    I suggest you stop wasting people’s time with your retarded wheezing here…

    • Agree: Bookish1
  56. Herald says:
    @Desert Fox

    Excellent summary and I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence.

    Erdogan has now been given more than enough rope to hang himself and it will soon be time for Russia to take up the slack and finish the job, when inevitably Turkey reneges on the latest ceasefire round.

    The time for negotiations will then be over and all the militants/troops in Syria illegally, should be dealt with as terrorists, no matter who they are.

    • Thanks: Desert Fox
  57. Antiwar7 says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    I would have just hit one of the predefined responses, but they didn’t have one for DUMBASS.

  58. @RadicalCenter

    Erdogan has openly called for Turks in Germany to outbreed the ethnic Germans;

    Erdogan just needs to wait a few more years as the Turkish population grows.

    I think Western Europe is well and truly finished, of there is some kind of civil strife within Germany between the ethnic Germans and Turks, I would imagine Erdogan would send arms and funds to his people.

    We might see ethnic Western Europeans forming their own refugee caravans to enter Eastern Europe, I wonder if the Slavonic people would take us in?

    • Replies: @ValMond
    , @Slavic yes
  59. @Talha

    That will not matter when the Turkish population that masquerades as Europeans becomes very large and acquires more and more political power. Even if they do have the capabilities, they will never use them and these capabilities will somehow manage to find their way into Turkish hands due to internal treason or Western elites simply giving away tech like they have down to China for the past few decades.

    I predict there will be big civil strife in the near future, Erdogan might end up arming Turks, especially supporters of organisations like Grey Wolves.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Talha
    , @Wielgus
  60. FB says: • Website
    @Just Passing Through

    …Western elites simply giving away tech like they have down [sic] to China for the past few decades.

    The moron procession here on UNZ just never stops…

    Nobody gave China any real technology…see my post above…they beat the UK in launching a satellite into space…beat France in developing thermonuclear weapons…they have put a man in space [albeit with a lot of help from Russian tech…no country other than the US and Russia has done that…

    And no…’technology’ doesn’t mean smartphones and rinky dink consumer electronics crapola…REAL technology means spacecraft, missiles, nuclear submarines and things like that…all areas where the Chinese are among the world leaders…

    Even in electronics which as I said is not real ‘technology’ China is pulling ahead [5G communications networks], nobody ‘gave’ them that…where is Apple’s 5G technology…?

    But of course, if you had any real education I would not be here explaining these simple facts…

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  61. Smith says:
    @Turk 152

    Ah yes, and you are awakening the animals. Do you want that?

    This crazy overconfidence when turks still buy weapons from US/Rus/Germany, where does it come from?

    • Replies: @Turk 152
  62. Smith says:

    Lol utter nonsense, turks cannot even get passed Greece and Bulgaria, turks cannot even beat Syrian Arab Army.

    The only force that can seriously conquer Europe as of right this moment is Russia, and only because the european populace would side with Russia over the decadent jew rulers. Lesser evil and all that.

  63. @AnonFromTN

    Correct, and in case some readers weren’t paying attention, whenever Shoigu would give an update complete with maps showing *all the lands that will be returned to Syria* the Golan Heights would be colored ‘Syrian’ and not israeli.

  64. rm says:

    “Frankly, the Iranians are spot on: the two things which made the Middle-East into the bloody mess it has been for decades are 1) Israel and 2) the US. ”
    That’s what the PNAC/neoconazionist 911 FF was all about.
    Smashing the Middle-East into a bloody mess.
    But not being seen doing it.

  65. Turk 152 says:

    A good question. I believe being a former Empire factors into it, Turkey has a great culture and the Turkish family is strong.

    These pinheads who refer to Turkey as a shithole country have probably never traveled beyond Disneyworld.

  66. ValMond says:
    @Just Passing Through

    Fräulein and mesdemoiselles are welcome. Feminists will be quarantined – perhaps sent to one-year reeducation camps (nothing draconian – knitting and sawing classes, home-keeping and basic cooking 101, not being a ho seminars etc…). As to you guys, we’ll send you back to fight the invaders as real men do.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  67. @Turk 152

    Warshington can’t be destroyed easily and its far easier to cut off its sword arms, the Ottomans and Barbaria.

  68. @Turk 152

    Can you describe what is culturally great about Turkey?

  69. Smith says:
    @Turk 152

    How does it feel to get slapped by syrians?

  70. Avery says:

    {This war is not over and it won’t be until Erdogan is removed from power. Frankly, Russia needs a stable and trustworthy partner on her southern border, and that won’t happen until the Turks ditch Erdogan. The problem here is that God only knows who might succeed him, should the Gulenists seize power, that will not be good for Russia either.}

    Turks have been threatening and invading neighbor countries which cannot defend themselves long before Islamist Erdogan was voted into power*.
    Kemalists were no different.
    Turks are Turks: secular, Islamist, Gulenists, Kemalists.

    {Russia needs a stable and trustworthy partner on her southern border,}

    You must be joking – about the ‘trustworthy’ part.
    Turks have been dreaming about a pan-Turanic chain from Bosphorus to Uyguristan for centuries.
    Turks consider Volga region ‘Turkic lands’ (…theirs).
    Russia has fought Turks for centuries.
    Turks consider Russia a geopolitical rival, not a partner in anything.

    * read up how Turks stole Alexandretta from Syria.

  71. @Just Passing Through

    We will take you of course but you didnt deserved thats for sure. West is treating slavs badly we know what u think of us

    • Replies: @PlasticGangsta
  72. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    I’ve had multiple non-Muslim co-workers travel through Turkey and report being very happy with their trip.

    I’ve also had Muslim friends and relatives travel through and report on a very good experience; of course, they go for different things like being able to visit the mausoleum of Mawlana Rumi (ra) and travel to the Topkapi Palace to see the relics/possessions of the Prophet (pbuh) that fell to the guardianship of the Ottomans.


  73. Talha says:
    @Just Passing Through

    Even if they do have the capabilities, they will never use them

    Hmmm…well, I guess it’s really up to the Austrians. If they don’t want to create laws to prevent a take over of their society and then enforce those laws, what can one say…?

    and these capabilities will somehow manage to find their way into Turkish hands due to internal treason

    But, I thought a major theme here around UNZ is that Muslims simply cannot handle or master these technologies due to being inbred retards…or at least close to it. So I wouldn’t be worried about this if I were you. The Chinese are a different matter.

    I predict there will be big civil strife in the near future, Erdogan might end up arming Turks

    Possibly, but I really don’t think Erdogan could win another term given what’s been happening. I would caution Turks about trying to strong arm the Europeans or trying to pin them against the wall. Just a couple of generations ago, Europeans were developing things like germ and chemical warfare and used it on each other…they can be fairly ruthless when they want to be (after all, they created things like carpet bombing, fire bombing, thermobaric bombs and of course various types of atom bombs – stuff that would impress Mongol hordes and the level of sheer destructive throughput within minutes, it took them days to accomplish the same)…you should check out this account to see what is happening in Fallujah to babies due to God-only-knows what ordinance the US dropped on that town:

    So this stuff is already in the field and has been used. And the increasing technology is just a force multiplier in the age of nerd warfare; who knows if they will incorporate genetic signatures into biological weapons so it only targets certain ethnicities. And with Christianity falling by the wayside, there may no longer be moral assumptions that would prevent this from happening.

    So, I wouldn’t push Europeans too far if I was the Turks, unless they want babies that look like something out of a Cronenburg film.


    • Replies: @PlasticGangsta
  74. AaronB says:

    I traveled through Turkey around 2010 and had a great experience.

    Istanbul was very sleek and sophisticated and attractive, and then I headed to the far eastern hinterland – I remember I was in a very long train journey and the conductor visited me in my cabin – I must have been the only European looking person on board – and shared some tea with me. He told me not to tell anyone I was American where I was heading (areas adjacent to Syria)!

    Of course, I told everyone I was American anyways 🙂 I got invited to tea in random shops and was treated with great hospitality and friendliness, as an American.

    The mountains in the north by the black sea are sublime – steep slopes coveted in dark pine forests (tons of Israelis on hiking trips lol). On the way up, apricots drying on rooftops and wrinkled old men drinking tea and wearing fezes. Does that world still exist?

    Throughout, I met nothing but kind and solicitors people, some very nice girls in a seaside town on the Ionian coast very interested in Hollywood and pumping me for info about LA (although maybe you don’t approve of that lol…neither do I, on second thought!).

    And wonderful food throughout. A great trip – I hope the Turks remain Turks. An interesting and friendly culture.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Kim
  75. Rahan says:

    Saying thing like “haha, Turkey can’t even handle Syria, what’s with the delusions that they’ve got a stronger army than Germany today?” is not unlike guffawing how the US “couldn’t even take Vietnam” or the USSR “couldn’t even take Afghanistan” and so on.

    In each of these three cases, there’s a) a superpower arming and training the other side, and b) the military objectives are not “normal war” but complex swampy bullshit.

    In a “normal war” Russia defeated Georgia in 5 days, and that’s back in 2008, when the Russian army was still pre-reform and had to use cellphones to coordinate the various units, due to lack of proper communication equipment, while Georgia was “NATO standard tech with US advisers” and sheit.

    So, in a “normal war” of the 2008 Russia vs Georgia type, yes modern Turkey would be “Russia”, and Syria, or Greece, or Serbia, would be “Georgia”.

    The only normal armies in continental Europe today are those of France and Poland. Everyone else is pretending to have an army, Germany very much included.

    Even just 20 years ago Germany had an army, today it has a civil service with uniforms where people pretend to be soldiers out of harms way in return for a crappy paycheck. Germany today has got about 300 functional modern tanks on paper, of which about 10 can actually start moving on the second during a sudden emergency. Another couple of hundred are allegedly mothballed.

    If Turkey attacks Europe in a “proper war” manner, it will reach Vienna in 10 days. By that time the French, the Poles, and random UK and US units will have managed to stop them there and maybe reverse the tide.

    Even modern Iran has a better chance of stopping an invading force in its tracks than modern Europe.

    And Turkey, BTW, is developing a 5th generation fighter plane, unlike 99% of the world. Just like Brazil is making jet airliners, unlike 99% of the world. 2020 is not 1990, or even 2000.

  76. @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    What do you mean destroyed? The nation or the regime?

  77. Morus says:
    @Desert Fox

    “Ankara is one of the main CIA nests in the Mideast”

    Very true, Desert Fox. That is the main reason The Turk (classical expression, not meant to insult) was forced upon the EU in the first place.

    The other reason, weakening and dividing Europe, of course. All the rest is Nebensache.

    What Erdogan’s amateurism/gullibility/hubris is showing the Europeans (and intelligent Turks as well) is the timeless power of… classical expressions.

    These contain forgotten messages from our ancestors.

    Lessons for their offspring. Tradition it’s called.

    The role of “our” “media” is to hide this Treasure.

    Or, at best, to exploit it – as embellishment for example, of the Systemic Lie they have to spread.

    By the way, Turkey has an excellent cuisine. (Nothing is black or white)

    • Replies: @Morus
    , @Desert Fox
  78. @Slavic yes

    So what is it you “think” we think of you? I am a politically active westerner from the UK and I think of Slavs no differently to as any other race or people. You really should not make massive generalisations like that it is not helpful and it is not constructive.

  79. Morus says:

    P.S. Erdogan is in my opinion not a bad guy but totally misled. He seems unable to even understand Assad.

    Can somebody explain this?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @Wielgus
  80. @Talha

    Seriously? I am not sure Christianity is failing but religion aside I live in the UK and we would never countenance anything of the sort. Just because westerners are rejecting traditional forms of religion does not mean they are abrogating their morals as well. I am not a fan of Erdogan I think he is a tinpot dictator who is fr more interested in his own power than in the promotion of his countries well being but I assure you genetically signatured weapons would never be allowed by the populations of the western democracies and being democracies the people will have the last say. It is far more dangerous when one person can propel a society into any action such as in Turkey, Russia, Syria as the leaders of these countries are not accountable. The leaders in western democracies CANNOT take actions against the will of their electorate or not for long anyway. (Genetically keyed weaponry would be ethnic cleansing of the worst sort and that is a specific crime in western societies)

    • Disagree: Commentator Mike
  81. Wielgus says:

    I was interested to see that Erdoğan’s solution to stuff in Wikipedia he did not like was simply to ban access to the Turkish-language version for over two years (the ban has only recently been lifted). I am unaware of any attempt to create an alternative to Wikipedia, and I suspect this would have been beyond AKP supporters, who are a somewhat basic bunch. A feature of AKP rule has been obscurantism and hostility to the educated, who tend to despise Erdoğan. None of this bodes well for technological or scientific advance.

    • Replies: @PlasticGangsta
  82. Wielgus says:
    @Just Passing Through

    He already has armed Turks – the AKP has a paramilitary wing and far right allies of the AKP also have a paramilitary aspect. This is not even new. The Grey Wolves are just the sharp edge of his MHP allies.

  83. Wielgus says:

    Galloway used to be something of an Erdoğan fan, perhaps taking Erdoğan’s anti-Israel stuff more seriously than it deserves. In reality he has been performing an anti-Syria duet with Israel as the other performer.

  84. Alfred says:

    “As German and Italian troops occupied Greece, tens of thousands of people fled by sea to refugee camps in the Middle East.”

    It is conveniently forgotten that a great many European Jews took refuge in all countries between Morocco and Iran – Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq. At that time, because the state of Israel did not yet exist, Jews were welcomed.

    • Thanks: Talha
  85. Alfred says:
    @Felix Keverich

    But the fact remains: Russian president devotes a lot of his time and energy into dead-end diplomacy, that produces abortions like Minsk 2014/2015 or Sochi 2018

    His objective is to minimize civilian casualties. Anyway, time is definitely not on the side of his opponents – the USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. Each year, Russia, Iran, Syrian and Hezbollah become a little stronger and these other countries become weaker.

    Yesterday, Putin delivered a hammer-blow to the Americans and Saudis. He is going to force down the price of oil so that the US shale story is exposed for the scam that it is and the Saudis will not have the money to support their Wahhabi mercenaries. Here is the most important chart today.

    Putin Launches “War On US Shale” After Dumping MbS & Breaking Up OPEC+

    • Thanks: FB, bluedog
    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  86. Alfred says:

    given that Turkey’s population is slowly growing while Russia’s population is steadily shrinking and becoming slightly more Muslim.

    1- Population does not equal military strength and motivation – far from it. Furthermore, countries with a smarter population are getting ever better at fighting with fewer casualties. The Turkish faction of the Turkish population has been dropping for decades.

    2- Muslim does not mean Wahhabi. The Wahhabi mercenaries are going down the drain just like their financier – Saudi Arabia. The cut in oil price provoked by Russia will change the regime in Saudi Arabia. Russian Military Police in Syria are Muslims from places like Chechnya. They have a totally different mentality from the retards of Wahhabism .

    Putin Has a New Secret Weapon in Syria: Chechens

    The British have imported vast numbers of Muslims from Pakistan, Indian and Bangladesh. Do you really think that they are similar to those of the Russian Federation? 🙂

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Commentator Mike
  87. Smith says:

    Aye, I dare Turkey to do it, just for the sake of awakening European nationalism.

  88. Talha says:

    I said “ Christianity falling by the wayside” just based on projected numbers and general experience:

    but I assure you genetically signatured weapons would never be allowed by the populations of the western democracies

    I certainly hope this is true and likely reflects your personal ethical position (hats off to you for that), but I don’t think Turks should risk it. I was simply outlining the potential consequences of disproportionate retaliation based not off Europeans from medieval times, but fairly recent history.


  89. @Talha

    FWIW the brilliant Austro-libertarian economist Hans Hoppe is married to a Turkish woman and lives in Bodrum.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  90. Parbes says:

    The regime, at the very least. That will blunt the immediate threat posed by Turkey to the region, Europe, Russia, and even the whole world. But there are many things very wrong with Muslim Turkish society and culture, and that problem will have to be addressed over the longer term, one way or another.

  91. @Morus

    I never hold the average people of any country responsible for what their leaders do and that includes the ZUS, as Hermann Goering said : it is easy to get people to go to war, just tell them that they are under attack and appeal to their patriotism, and he also said the average person does not want war as the best he can hope for is to survive, that was roughly what he said, you can google it.

    May God help us.

  92. Wielgus says:

    His world view is a Turkish version of the Muslim Brotherhood. I don’t think he even understands secular-minded or Alevi Turks, much less the Alawite Arab Assad.

  93. @AaronB

    I was in Turkey some years ago, visited Istanbul, Ankara, Cappadocia, and a few other places. When asked, honestly said that I am a Russian living in the US. Felt no hostility anywhere. Istanbul feels more Mediterranean than Islamic, despite the profusion of mosques. Very few women in burkas, perfectly normal crowds on Istiklal, nice atmosphere. Although the conversion of St Sophia into a mosque suggests an inferiority complex, this happened centuries ago, probably does not mean anything any more. Unlike crazy Moslems, Turks allow tourists (naturally, unbelievers by their lights) enter mosques. Practically all waiters speak Russian and English, at least on a restaurant level, like in Prague (where they also speak some German).

    We took the train from Istanbul to Ankara, which was strictly on time and very comfortable. The majority of the passengers were Turks, but there were a few Westerners. We asked the travel agency to bring us car to the train station in Ankara, and then pick it up more than a week later at the airport of some other city (from which we flew to Istanbul), and they did everything without a hitch. BTW, in their behavior on the road Turks are almost as good as Germans, way ahead of most Europeans.
    Cappadocia was very interesting, the Christian churches in caves, smaller cities, carpet factory, clay workshop, etc. Had fun riding a hot air balloon there. The price was listed in dollars, euros, but not in liras. Their ATMs give you local liras, US dollars, or euros, – whichever you choose. Found that many Turkish businesses prefer dollars and euros to their lira.

    Some food was great (e.g., Turkish baklava comes in many varieties, all delicious), some ordinary. Culture-wise, mosques and rugs are certainly Turkish, but most of the remarkable landmarks are from Greeks or Byzantium.

    Still, I’d say Turkey deserves better than mad wannabe Sultan. However, they presumably elected that lunatic, so cannot complain when he wastes their lives for nothing in Idlib.

    • Thanks: Nonny Mouse
  94. Robjil says:

    Turkish culture has to incorporate the cultures of its past. Ancient Greece and Byzantium as its own. Migrants being used as battering rams, is a sign that Turkish culture is confused and disturbed. No sane culture would use people as battering rams.

    Mexico incorporates its past as its past. Native Mexico as its own.

    Egypt incorporates its past as its past. Ancient Egypt as its own.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  95. Wielgus says:

    Some years back Assad gave a TV interview in which he blamed then Turkish FM Davutoğlu for Turkey messing with Syria, suggesting Davutoğlu had misled a somewhat naive and ignorant Erdoğan. However, Davutoğlu has since fallen out with Erdoğan and Erdoğan is doing even dumber stuff in Syria than was the case when Davutoğlu was guiding his foreign policy.

    • Replies: @Morus
  96. @AnonFromTN

    Turkey gas a unique atmosphere, one I would characterises as ‘folksy’, like something out of a 1970s Italian film, the atmosphere is great.

    I am personally surprised at how many Turks live abroad permanently in places like Germany. Turkey seems like a much better place to live for a Turk as they will not have to put up with discrimination and will also get to live in a fairly nice environment. Why live in dark and dreary Deutschland where Hans and Greta are always worrying about exams and engineering when you could live a nice and relaxed life in Turkey while you smoke with Mehmet?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Wielgus
  97. Talha says:

    Unlike crazy Moslems, Turks allow tourists (naturally, unbelievers by their lights) enter mosques.

    I covered this in another thread. This doesn’t have all that much to do with crazy vs sane Muslims as it does with interpretive differences and the customary school in play in a particular region.

    The Turks follow the Hanafi school (which was adopted by the Ottomans) which allows for any type of non-Muslim (Christian, Jew, polytheist, etc.) to enter any mosque, including the main ones in Makkah and Madinah. That is the standing fatwa of the school.

    On the opposite end is the Maliki school that you will find in places like Morocco or Algeria, which states no non-Muslims can enter any mosque at all. Which is why you can usually enter the courtyard area of a mosque in Morocco, but no further.

    And then there are other schools in the middle somewhere that may restrict polytheists, but not Jews and Christians or allow entry for all mosques except Makkah, etc.


    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  98. FB says: • Website

    And Turkey, BTW, is developing a 5th generation fighter plane…

    LOL…yup…the world’s first ‘fifth generation’ fighter plane powered by a lawnmower engine…I understand this is a breakthrough in physics…[also it’s only one foot long, for stealth, and is flown by specially trained gerbil pilots…]

    Where is the jet engine going to come from…?…Turkey can’t even build an ultralight aircraft engine…those Rotax ultralight engines it uses in its pissant UAVs are churned out in Austria…

    But I would be interested in hearing more about the Turkish ‘ fifth generation fighter jet’…please do post some links here…LOL

    • Thanks: Alfred
    • LOL: Parfois1
  99. @Rahan

    And Turkey, BTW, is developing a 5th generation fighter plane, unlike 99% of the world. Just like Brazil is making jet airliners, unlike 99% of the world. 2020 is not 1990, or even 2000.

    Are you talking about this?

    From the Wikipedia article on the Turkish jet;

    In December 2015, Turkey’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) announced that it had chosen BAE Systems of the United Kingdom to assist with the design of the nation’s next-generation air superiority fighter. The same day UK’s Rolls-Royce offered EJ200 engine technology transfer and joint-development of a derivative for the TF-X program. During the visit of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Theresa May to Turkey in January 2017, BAE Systems and TAI officials signed an agreement, worth about £100 million, for BAE Systems to provide engineering assistance in developing the aircraft. Following the agreement, the UK issued open general export licence to defense companies willing to export goods, software or technology to Turkey.

    So in actual fact, it isn’t Turkey that is developing the 5th generation jet but actually British firms like BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce who will be doing the heavy lifting while Turkey just does the bare minimum required for the jet to not just be a foreign import like the F-16, that is to say designing the aircraft body (copying generic Western 5th gen body shape of course) and making some of the avionics. It is a bit like how they appropriated Hagia Sophia by simply adding 4 minarets and doing some interior decorating, the *real* Europeans did the bulk of the cognitively demanding work
    [European built structure]
    [Now a Turkish structure because of high-tech minarets those stupid Europeans couldn’t make]

    The turbofan is one of, if not *the* most critical component of a fighter jet, and the companies that maufacture these marvels of engineering are either American (Pratt & Whitney, General Electric), British (Rolls Royce), French (SNECMA) or Russian (NPO Saturn). I believe the Chinese are almost at the point of self-sufficiency in jet fighter engine manufacturing but this came after a long and arduous process of reverse-engineering Russian engines, nevertheless it is a big achievement. There are also some other players in Germany and Sweden although ultimately they rely on making engines under license from the aforementioned companies.

    When one has to import jet engines from another country, one is more or less cucked by said country as they usually ship the engines out in a trickle and impose strict rules on how the jets can and cannot be used. If the country doesn’t make the jet engine it cannot really be called an ‘indegenous’ product. Even nowadays the only two countries capable of making completely indegenous jet fighters are America and Russia, European fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon rely on a consortium of various European nations.

    The same applies for Brazil and Embraer, all of their aircraft incorporate American General Electric engines.

    There is a reason why there are only really two superpowers in the world today, with China looking to join them some time in the near future, because only Russia and America have the capabilities to make their advanced weapons system in house without foreign help.

    So in summary, Turkey cannot do shit. One may also ask why the Western world is giving its technology to the Turks and other groups that cannot really be called our friends? The answer to that is that our governments are hardly rational given they promote things like injecting drugs into kids to change their gender and other such degeneracy.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
    , @Talha
    , @FB
    , @FB
  100. Turk 152 says:
    @Just Passing Through

    A very good analysis, however i believe the Iran situation as well as Russian missle superiority in missle defence requires a rethinking of the relevance of jet fighters. Obsolete aor craft carriers are required for the jets offensive effectiveness and they are sitting ducks with advances in missle technology. The cost / benefit of force projection via jets is far worse than it was a few years ago. It seems like missle systems will be the determining factor in the future and it seems the technology gap is much smaller in that arena.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
    , @Talha
  101. FB says: • Website

    Alfred, your points are well stated…but you make the mistake of assuming that anything the retarded clown ‘Radical Center’ says has anything to do with reality…

    …given that Turkey’s population is slowly growing while Russia’s population is steadily shrinking…

    This is of course easily looked up…the reality is that Russia’s population continues a healthy growth, and the country’s total fertility rate of 1.8 is the same as the US and well above that of Germany [1.6] and many other European countries…

    That according to wikipedia and based on 2017 numbers…

    The numbers for 2020 are presented here…

    In fact, it is Turkey’s fertility rate that is dropping…while Russia’s is increasing…

    From that graph we see that in the last 20 years [actually from 1999] Russia’s fertility rate has been climbing steadily…source here…

    Turkey meanwhile is declining…from the same source…

    The graph makes this easy to visualize…

    Of course we have been exposed to all kinds of misinformation about the alleged demographic ‘decline’ of Russia for over 20 years now…this is propaganda and wishcasting which dominates our media space of course in just about every aspect of life…

    People can easily fact check these things of course, but the vast majority are not going to have the initiative to actually ferret out the reality of the world they live in…they prefer to wallow in ignorance and indulgence…as we see here on UNZ…LOL

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  102. Turk 152 says:

    The new paradigm is whether or not you have sufficient misdles to pound Tel Aviv and Riyad to rubble and I see no reason that Turkey cant mert that hurdle relatively soon.

  103. Alfred says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Hans Hoppe is married to a Turkish woman

    Turkish women are nice and gentle. The problem is the men.

    The English Collins dictionary has the following:

    1. a native, inhabitant, or citizen of Turkey
    2. a native speaker of any Turkic language, such as an inhabitant of Turkmenistan or Kyrgyzstan
    3. obsolete, derogatory – a violent, brutal, or domineering person

  104. Talha says:
    @Just Passing Through

    So in summary, Turkey cannot do shit.

    See, as I was saying before; nothing to worry about here. I’m certain Turkey and some other Muslim countries could probably field 1970-1980 military jet technology completely internally, but European nations are leaps ahead in terms of full spectrum nerd warfare (FSNW) and that will likely not change anytime soon. And this also goes for other branches of FSNW like AI and robotics and such.


  105. Turk 152 says:
    @Turk 152

    This should have gone to FB

  106. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    advances in missle technology.

    Instead of investing unnecessary amounts in purchasing more and more jets for force projection, countries like Turkey, Pakistan and others should develop military industrial cooperation to build indigenous and capable air defenses in order to prevent the bombing-from-the-air campaigns they get subjected to whenever someone in the West gets an itch for regime change.


  107. Morus says:

    You clarified it, Wielgus. The real stature of Erdogan.

    Not only Syria, his own Turkey too he’s unable to grasp fully (let alone the rest of the Globe). Modernity escapes him.

    Simply put, he’s a fool.

    Albeit not the biggest in NATO – the ‘twelve points’ for Europe’s Folly Festival go to…
    her most modern politician. By far.

    A woman (coincidentally of course): Frau Merkel!.

    She and he: funny, when you think of it, two sides of one coin.

    Incompetence on a gigantic scale.

    • Agree: Alfred, Desert Fox
    • Thanks: Turk 152
  108. FB says: • Website
    @Just Passing Through

    LOL…that picture in wikipedia is called a ‘mockup’…says so right there…it has nothing to do with a flying airplane…let’s see if this thing actually becomes anything more than that…[a mockup is often made of things like wood and cardboard…]

    The fact of life is that many many countries have been working on ‘indigenous’ fighter aircraft for decades…but none of these have actually panned out and produced competitive aircraft…this includes countries way more advanced than Turkey, like Japan, South Korea, India and even China’s indigenous fighters are not up to snuff yet, which is why they continue to buy Russian…

    For instance Japan, which has been a leading world industrial power for many decades, is about to throw in the towel [after decades of work and billions spent] on its own ‘fifth generation’ fighter…

    …there is strong indication that the Ministry of Defense will not seek funds for its Acquisition Technology & Logistics Agency (ATLA) to continue work on Mitsubishi Heavy Industries’ experimental fifth-generation fighter technology demonstrator X-2 ‘Shinshin’…

    But Turkey which has not actually built anything that flies in its entire history [except for about 100 UAVs it has produced, all of them quite small radio controlled aircraft using foreign engines, of the small hobbyist type] is going to succeed where Japan cannot…?

    Is that what you believe…and would have us believe…?

    Sorry pal…if you actually knew anything about the science and industry of aviation, you would know the real world facts are much much different…

    And what about India, a country that just recently sent a satellite to the moon [although it crashed in its attempted soft landing, it still became one of the very few nations to actually orbit the moon]…?

    It was only five years ago that the first ‘Tejas’ light combat aircraft was introduced after
    more than three decades of development…

    Small countries have of course built fighter aircraft in the past…the most successful being Sweden, but including countries like Yugoslavia and Czechia…but these are NOT frontline fighters, they are light combat aircraft that can at best fill a small niche…even the Swedish Gripen has not been able to compete effectively, but has carved out a small space for itself…

    These national fighter jet programs by countries like Japan, India and others are mostly vanity projects that have very little chance of going toe to toe with frontline fighters made by Russia, the US, and to a lesser extent, the large European defense consortia…

    What halfwits like you don’t understand is that the main ingredient for success in building a world class combat aircraft is BRAIN POWER…on a massive scale…before you can build such sophisticated machines you must first have a very powerful educational-scientific infrastructure…

    The layman in general cannot appreciate this because he has never worked at NASA or the Russian TSAGI…even seeing these massive facilities and the amazing human intellect that is contained within would help put this in perspective…

    Countries like Turkey simply do not have the intellectual capacity to pull of something like this…and they are not even concentrating on building the intellectual base, unlike countries like China and India that have thrown huge resources on building this foundation…

    Have a look at the huge wind tunnel at NASA Ames in Moffet Field California… where I used to work…an aerial view of Moffett Field…and which can fit a full size Boeing 737…

    Russia’s facilities are even bigger…the entire city of Zhukovsky is a massive aerospace center that has a history going back to one of the fathers of aerodynamics, Nikolai Zhukovsky…[I have done much work at the Gromov flight test center in Zhukovsky…]

    Turkey’s best bet is to cultivate cooperation with Russia, as China and India have done for decades, in order to LEARN how to do this stuff…Turkey right now is at the stage where it needs to learn how to crawl before it can walk, much less run…

    Btw…what makes you think you can lecture me about turbofan engines, when you don’t have even the most rudimentary professional qualifications in engineering or aviation…?

    Go check my website dork…if you want to actually learn something about jet engines and aircraft which is my profession…

    • Replies: @PlasticGangsta
  109. @Talha

    OK, you call it different schools, I call it different levels of sanity. Same difference.
    BTW, what about atheists? Personally, I don’t believe in any fairy tales. Where does it place me?

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @Talha
  110. FB says: • Website
    @Just Passing Through

    My above comment was in response to the nutbar Rahan…

    A lot of your points are actually near the mark…but not entirely…the foreign firms [BAE for instance] working with Turkey does not actually mean they will see this project through to completion…

    This has been the case in many such projects…for instance the Jap project I mentioned…

    The fact is that neither BAE nor any other leading aerospace concern, either western or Russian, is going to pass up an opportunity to milk these pie in the sky programs that less advanced countries are always coming up with…they make good money off this stuff…I know this from firsthand experience…

    So the bottom line is actually much less than you assume…this program has ZERO chance of reaching production…I will be very surprised if it even comes to a technology demonstrator or flying prototype…

    The main reason is that these leading aerospace concerns are not going to want to be embarrassed by the program’s inevitable failure…another reason is to protect their intellectual property…

    Here’s how that works…an airplane is a system of interlocking and interdependent components…you cannot just bolt in an advanced jet engine and push the go button…Turkey is not capable of producing even a suitable airframe for such an advanced fighter…

    The airframe involves first and foremost aerodynamics, but Turkey has zero competence in this…I’m not sure there is actually a single wind tunnel in the entire country…[by contrast there are no less than 17 wind tunnels, including hypersonic tunnels capable of up to Mach 7, at Tsagi in the town of Zhukovsky alone…some of these tunnels were used in the development of the Buran orbiter shuttle…]

    Nasa Ames [and other of the six Nasa facilities in other parts of the country] has a similar capability, also used for advanced high speed spacecraft testing [atmospheric reentry…]

    So it is clear that in order to even come up with an adequate airframe, it would require a huge amount of intellectual capital by any foreign partners like BAE…they are not going to do that, I can tell you that right now…

    And if they cannot come up with the airframe, there is no chance that any engine manufacturer is going to supply them an engine…

    It’s true that engines supplied by foreign partners come with strings attached, but in reality there is little that can be done once the system is in the hands of the operator…the use of the Turkish F16s cannot e dictated by Washington…neither can the use of Sukhois or Saturn engines by China…

    The more relevant aspect is that you ALWAYS get export-spec equipment…that means it is never top shelf, but that is the reality…the Turks aren’t getting the Russian spec S400 either, but it’s better than nothing…

    And one last point here that will illustrate much…before building its own small UAVs, Turkey tried to get US-made Predators [General Atomics]…but were denied…

    Now the Predator is a UAV of quite modest capability…it also uses the Austrian Rotaz engines used in ultralights…but it is very advanced for what it is…the fact that the US cut Turkey off from this technology speaks volumes…

    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  111. @Just Passing Through

    Don’t you think you want to ask Turks? Nobody else can possibly have the answer.

  112. @Robjil

    That’s true, but it depends whether that past is yours (i.e., belongs to the ancestors of current residents) or somebody else’s. In case of Mexico it’s clear: the past belongs to local’s ancestors, who constitute the majority of the population (although many won’t admit that, as Mexican culture is more racist than most). In Egypt it is also clear: Arab’s contribution to Ancient Egypt is exactly zero. How is it in Turkey? I’d appreciate if a Turk or someone familiar with the situation could chime in. I mean the situation now, after the population swap of 1920s. Before that there was a sizable fraction of the population whose ancestors created that glorious past.

  113. @FB

    Thanks for the clarification, I was a bit confused at first as your comment didn’t seem to be related to mine.

    And yes, it is likely they will just milk Turkey for money. I assume Turkey will get *some* experience from this collaboration but ultimately it will not be enough.

    It is like how France’s SNECMA is currently toying around with India in regards to transfer of turbofan technology. If I remember correctly India paid way more than the market price for the Dassault Rafales (I think it was because they reduced the order size halfway through the deal or something) and ever since then France has been dangling M88 engine tech before India’s eyes.

    I suppose in reality, no rational nation could ever transfer such a crucial piece of technology, as all countries want a future market and giving away engine tech will ultimately mean self-sufficiency.

    By the time they transfer the knowledge, it is already outdated as it the case with the Indian Tejas fighter, which is like a first-generation F-16 in terms of performance. Ultimately India gained good knowledge to replace it’s ageing mig-21 but it certainly isn’t a top tier 4++ generation fighter aircraft as it was billed originally.

    • Replies: @FB
  114. @AnonFromTN

    I think it simply means that your tree of knowledge is rooted in logic (Logos) rather than in a belief in myths (Mythos)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  115. @Wielgus

    Scary isn’t it. If you study Germany in the late 1930’s there was a resentment of the educated and professional classes by the Nazi’s stormtroopers (the SA) They banned anything they did not like or that contradicted their version of history, their version of current events and their version of society.

  116. FB says: • Website
    @Just Passing Through

    It is absolutely correct that no leading aerospace concern is actually going to transfer world class technology…

    But the reasons aren’t generally what the layman might assume…specifically with regards to advanced jet engines [whether turbojet or turbofan or some other cycle, which really depends on the aircraft mission, since each engine cycle has its strengths in a particular flight speed regime]…here is what is going on today…

    There are many quite specific areas of technical advancement, but one of the most important is materials science…namely the ability to come up with materials having quite incredible properties…specifically the ability to withstand very high temperatures, while maintaining high strength…all jet engines are limited by temperature, and the higher you can push the temperature the more powerful and fuel efficient the engine becomes…

    Now just in the last 30 years or so we have seen jet engine temps increase by more than 20 percent…several hundred degrees Celsius…so the thing boils down to advanced metallurgy and coatings…and this involves also incredibly advanced manufacturing…for instance single-crystal metallurgy for turbine blades, where the grain flow of the entire piece is one continuous flow…

    This is something that only a few people have figured out how to do [and these people are mostly in the US and Russia, with Europe being behind a little…speaking in generalities here…]

    Moreover, these are proprietary methods and processes belonging to a particular firm, all of which are in competition…so it is not precisely a nation to nation thing…

    The bottom line is that you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of countries that even have specialists possessing this kind of advanced knowledge…again it’s all about people…

    What all of this boils down to in practice is that even if a particular engine maker was somehow enticed to enter into some kind of collaboration of the type India is seeking, where some actual transfer of this knowledge takes place…it would be impossible for the country on the receiving end to actually make use of this knowledge…they simply do not have the technical capability…

    Now India for instance has advanced tremendously in its capabilities over the decades of close cooperation with Russian companies…for instance the Brahmos supersonic missile…but the Russians are very careful to dole out only those bits that the partner country is actually capable of digesting…this also means that they are giving basically hand me downs, since the receiving country simply hasn’t grown big enough yet to fill the big boy pants…

    I generally believe from my own experience that humans are driven mostly by greed…I think in some situations even the most advanced company will sell its crown jewels if the people involved think they are going to make a killing…but this can in practice never happen because, again, the receiving country simply doesn’t have the knowledge base to make proper use of it…

    So again with respect to India, they are very ambitious…and yes they are trying to get some technology knowhow from Snecma and Dassault Aviation, the maker of the Rafale airframe…but this is a losing game…

    China has tried this too…they spent 20 years trying to buy the source code for the Saturn engine’s computer…these controllers are another key technology known as FADEC, which stands for full authority digital engine control…

    Now I will explain why this is so important and why the knowledge to use this is even more important…the engine computer gets the most out of the engine in terms of performance, while also guarding the health of the engine, which is of course critical in the case of combat aviation, since you cannot fight if your engine conks out…

    Now suppose the Saturn agreed to just sell the source code to the Chinese…would the Chinese engine specialists now be able to ‘tune’ that engine into its optimum performance…the answer is no, because they simply do not have the vast knowledge of the Russian specialists, who have been working with advanced engines for many decades…

    So the Chinese gave up on simply ‘buying’ such advanced technology [they also tried to hack into the Fadec but haven’t managed to do that either]…and are instead concentrating on building up the educational-scientific infrastructure from within…

    This is really the key to these things…it’s like getting a top notch carpenter to build you a custom piece of furniture [people pay a lot for this kind of stuff]…now even if that guy gave you a set of blueprints and instructions on how to do it, does that mean you are going to be able to actually craft a piece that is as good as his…?

    Now everything I just said about engines also applies to airframes…it’s all about human knowledge…and here’s another observation…you need to have a massive program churning out massive numbers of scientists and engineers because of the simple fact that only one in a thousand is actually going to be a real sparkplug who is going to advance the state of the art…the rest are simply going to punch their clock…

    Obviously if you have a very small base to work with, you will have very few of such truly valuable people…

    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  117. @FB

    I can only assume that the responder had been rude to you prior to your comment as you seemed to be belittling him but be that as it may I just wanted to weigh in. I agree with most everything you said. I would also add that the Europeans, Americans and Russians have been doing this stuff for generations and it is much easier to develop that brain trust you mention over years as opposed too rapid targeted education designed to construct the foundation of an advanced aerospace industry practically overnight the way the Chinese have. In short Russia and the western democracies have a head start of many decades over countries like Turkey, India and even China. I will say this. If Erdogan had simply behaved like a democratically elected leader then Turkey would have had the F-35. Unfortunately when he engineered a coup to allow him to remove the opposition from all over Turkish society. Look, I have no real proof of that. I know it is the opinion of a number western intelligence agencies and was the opinion of the vast majority of Turkish officers at SHAPE, many of whom claimed asylum rather than return to Turkey and likely prosecution. However, it does seem to me highly convenient and if it really was Gulen inspired Erdogan cannot have much to worry about from that quarter as it is possibly the worst planned and executed coup I have ever read about or witnessed in my life time. It was all over in less than an hour though the arrests sackings and isolation of all his political opponents has gone on for a lot longer. I believe 50,000 people were temporarily detained and by the end of his purges 75,000 people had lost their jobs in the civil service or been excluded from their campus or school if teachers and removed from their hospital if doctors. Obviously Erdogan believed this was acceptable behaviour but he was to be disillusioned. All his NATO allies and the EU that he wished his country to join was universally horrified. EU/NATO countries simply do not bang up 50,000 people without due process. Not even one would have been acceptable but his actions after the coup marked him for what he is. A dictator and any chance Turkey had of joining the EU was gone. (I was dubious as to the Turks ever being admitted but that is an issue for a different thread) Even Turkeys NATO membership has become difficult and in my opinion without regime change their tenure within NATO is doomed. Erdogan was realigning his country with Russia who would allow his excesses without comment and then he could rule as his role model does….. Putin. However that alliance is looking shakier and shakier. For me Turkey is a morality tale that shows how easy it is, even today to go to bed in a democracy and wake up in a dictatorship. It is a shame really, Turkey was the secular Islamic state that we all believed might show the way for other muslim nations. They were genuinely free, democratic and most of all secular which is always a problem for the governments of predominately Islamic nations. we seem to be living in an age of demagogues and sooner or later it will be one of these puffed up bullies with an over developed sense of their own value and importance that will start a war that will engulf us all.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Wielgus
    , @Showmethereal
  118. Talha says:

    I call it different levels of sanity

    Sure because non-Muslims really are only interested in how it affects them, not adherence to any consistent and coherent interpretative models…which makes sense, why would you?

    what about atheists?

    Hanafis lump every non-Muslim subtype together as far as this is concerned. Of course, so do the Malikis.


  119. @FB

    True, the only real way of transfering technology as complex as that of turbofan engines would be to invite tens of thousands of the receiving countries top scientists and training them for years in home facilities, something which will never realistically happen. Instead they train a few hundred on some technologies while keeping the other crucial stuff secret.

    Erdogan should he encouraging all his footsoldiers in Europe to be joining top aerospace companies so they can acquire knowledge instead of encouraging them to breed out native Germans which will not end well for anyone.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  120. @NoseytheDuke

    In my case, it’s a professional requirement. I do science (real one, not social or political “science”). If I did not see the difference between facts and myths, I’d have hard time publishing anything, getting funded, and soon enough I’d be booted out of my position (for a good reason). So, I can’t afford childish superstitions (using Einstein’s term).

    • LOL: L.K
  121. Avery says:

    { Turkish baklava comes in many varieties, all delicious)}

    So-called ‘Turkish‘ baklava?
    Baklava is no more Turkish than borscht is.
    You are as mis-informed (brainwashed?) as all others who believe Turk propaganda.
    Turks are nomads from East and Central Asia.
    How do you suppose the nomads had developed the techniques/ability/culture to create a dish/pastry like baklava?

    Every – EVERY – s0-called ‘Turkish’ was stolen, mis-appropriated, confiscated from others – sedentary, creative civilizations.
    Where did the Turks grow the wheat grain for baklava? Outside their nomad tents?
    Where did the walnuts for baklava come from? From mobile walnut trees the nomad Turks carried with them?

    Baklava is not Turkish: the only food/dish that can be theoretically Turkish is sish-kebab: you know, Turk nomads slaughtering some animals on the move and roasting them on arrows on open fires on the steppes.

    Baklava is most likely either: Greek, Lebanese, Syrian, or…….?
    Definitely not Turkish.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  122. FB says: • Website

    Well…I don’t know what you mean by ‘democratic’…

    The west, as led by the United States, has nothing to do with democracy, nor human rights, nor any other such idealistic stuff…it is a plutocracy at best, an oligarchy really where the worst kind of hucksters and parasites have taken over the entire system and beggaring most of the population…

    As for Erdogan’s purges after the coup, I don’t buy for a second that the supposedly democratic Europe was somehow ‘horrified’ at this idea of thousands of people getting ‘banged up’ by Erdogan…

    The Europeans have no qualms about championing the worst terrorist scum on earth, as in Syria and other places…they have no problems selling Saudis as much weaponry as they can buy, as long as the cash keeps flowing…now all of a sudden these swell guys and gals have a conscience attack…?

    Don’t make me laugh…

    No, the falling out with Turkey is of a completely different nature…on the US side the only bad feelings to Erdogan are because the coup didn’t succeed, and because Erdogan did quite successfully purge the subversive elements…and the euro puppets, being good little vassals are simply following the US lead in terms of the political rhetoric…

    Another factor here is that back in 2011 when the great Syria adventure started, the euro puppets were just fine with Erdo…the grand geopolitical design was of course the US project for toppling the dominoes in the Middle East…first Iraq, then Libya, then Syria…and on to Tehran as the ultimate prize…again, the euro puppets were just following for the most part, although in the Libya case there was a fair bit of French neo-colonialist nostalgia for their glory days in North Africa…

    What happened is that the Russians put the kibosh on the great Syrian adventure…there will be no more falling dominoes…this set the thieves to quarreling, as often happens when a heist goes wrong…aggravating this situation was the huge migrant influx that happened precisely because of Libya and Syria, plus Iraq and Afghanistan also…Europe has been stretched to the breaking point, and the Italian government for instance has said enough…

    Another factor is the US plan to use Kurdish nationalism to splinter the entire region…this could break up not only Iraq, Syria and even Iran, but mostly Turkey…I am on Turkey’s side in this…it is an absolutely despicable thing to try to destroy a nation, which is what the entire Kurd project amounts to…in terms of the big picture, we see that Israel is a big supporter of this devilish plan…the idea being that if Israel’s rivals are thrown into disarray, that this will translate into security and well-being for Israel, which of course isn’t true…but they believe it nonetheless…

    So there are a lot bigger issues here than Erdio’s ‘authoritarian’ crackdown…and btw, the UK isn’t authoritarian when it imprisons journalist Julian Assange…or pulls a crazy scheme like abducting the Skripals [where are they…the world wants to know]…

    So no, your thesis here is entirely half-baked…the west doesn’t give a shit about humanism or ideals…if you believe that you go right ahead and binge on the koolaid to your heart’s content…nobody here is buying it…

    I personally don’t have anything against the Turkish people, or even Erdogan, except for his embrace of terrorists…we cannot have this scourge among us…yet the US ambassador to the UN still pops up in Syria [illegally crossing into the country btw] and has photo ops with the terrorist scum White Helmets, who also get many millions from the US and Europe…

    PS…And since I’m here, I will agree with some previous comments regarding Turkey’s need to embrace its real cultural history, which includes Greek, Armenian and others…an interesting article about the emerging picture of genetics in Turkey…where the popular DNA tests like ’23 and me’ are illegal…the country is in the grip of Islamism and a Turkish chauvinism, which Erdogan and others have been carefully cultivating…while in reality, the Turkish people actually have little in common with actual central Asiatic Turks…

    DNA-based tests shake Turks’ beliefs in their ‘Turkishness’

    PPS…about Istanbul…lovely city…nice people…absolutely amazing how people care for street cats, which are everywhere…the Islamic world in general is very kind to felines [you will even see them wandering freely inside mosques in Istanbul], an absolutely wonderful thing which the west would do well to emulate…

    This goes back nearly 1,500 years to the prophet Muhammad himself who loved cats and allowed them in his prayer room…an apocryphal story goes that one time when his beloved cat was sleeping on his robe and he wanted to get up, he actually cut off his robe so as not to disturb her…

    • Replies: @Robjil
  123. @Avery

    Come to think of it, you have a point. Baklava must have come from an agricultural civilization, certainly could not have been invented by nomads. However, modern Turks (no longer nomads) made a high art out of making it. Nowhere in the world I saw more varieties of baklava than in Turkey.

  124. God in Heaven, the following columnists are a tiresome useless bunch, who should be permanently cut loose from this blog…

    Lin Dihn: A peripatetic Vietnamese author transplanted to various points in the West, who thinks this gives him some kind of expertise or unique viewpoint to comment on declining US folkways in an increasingly degenerate America. Instead, his articles are just confused, useless jibberish. If you want ‘local color’, go read somebody else.

    Fred Reed: An emigre to Mexico where he lives with his Jewish-Mexican wife, and pretends it’s paradise in a country that, unbeknownst to him, is fast turning into a complete narco-state. His articles continually display his stupidity while whitewashing it with half-wit pretensions of being droll, curmudgeonly, and coy. This clown is wrong on so many levels, so much of the time, with such a false and unwarranted attitude, that he should never be allowed to publish anything except in his local pueblo de mierda excuse for a newspaper.

    The Saker: Andrei Raevsky, a Russian albeit Swiss citizen, with an inflated ego, who devises weird commentary based on a totally erroneous hierarchy of political/sociological values. He then has the gall to hit everyone over the head with his strange conclusions using a sanctimonious writing style. Here’s a comment from a Serb who used to work for him: “I still believe Russians are our brothers but I don’t believe that Andrei Raevsky is one of them. He is a hybrid, a GMO if you will, of Russian soul fertilized by select Western ideology. It cannot thrive, it should not multiply. It will perish.” And BTW, what a ridiculous appellation for a pompous non-entity.

    Godfree Roberts: An Australian living in Thailand, and an unabashed mainland Han Chinese apologist, whose fawning diatribes about the CCP border on embarrassing. His sole aim is to compare mainland China with the current miserable state of affairs in the US, while pretending it has nothing to do with rabid leftism, and completely ignoring Hong Kong and Taiwan.

    Meanwhile, one of my comments was set on permanent ‘under consideration’ status for no apparent reason; after politely asking for an explanation via a direct email, I was ignored. But the aforementioned columnists are still allowed to spew their unalloyed nonsense. Oh well.

    • Replies: @FB
  125. FB says: • Website
    @Monotonous Languor

    Meanwhile, one of my comments was set on permanent ‘under consideration’ status for no apparent reason…


    What makes you thing you can waltz into this discussion and start blowing random gas…?

  126. Robjil says:

    This is a study of the South Anatolian town of Sagalassos. The Byzantine cemetery had the same mitochondrial DNA, from the mother line, as the present “Turkish” inhabitants.

    A recent comparison of medieval mitochondrial DNA from a Byzantine cemetery with modern populations in Southwest Turkey shows what we have assumed in our population analyses of atDNA 2.0. The integration of historical with archaeological information proves that the little South Anatolian town of Sagalassos has a clearly structured Balkan/Greek maternal population with some ancient Persians and Italians in the mix but no Central Asian (Turkic) contributions discernible. The inference is that when the Turks conquered Anatolia and eventually took control of the Byzantine capital (modern-day Constantinople) they remained largely a ruling class with little penetration into the ancient settlements scattered through Turkey. Even though the general populace accepted their conquerors’ religion, Islam, their bedrock DNA did not significantly alter, at least not in the female lines.

    I like cats too. Feral cats are problem everywhere though. They kill many rare birds all over the world. In Hawaii, a disease from cats is killing birds and many other native species. It is huge problem in Hawaii.

    As populations of invasive feral cats skyrocket in Hawaiʻi, so does the risk to native animal species.

    The ʻalalā, or Hawaiian crow, is one of the rarest birds in the world. They are extinct in the wild, and only 114 birds are left in captive breeding facilities. The ʻalalā are protected from predators while they are in captivity. They are also protected from parasites found in the wild. These parasites are so widespread and persistent in Hawaiʻi’s forests that they may have interfered with attempts in the mid-1990’s to re-establish ʻalalā populations in the wild. Toxoplasma gondii, the parasite spread in cat feces, was found in five released ʻalalā, three died in the wild, a fourth died after being brought back to captivity. The fifth recovered after being treated for the parasite.

    • Disagree: FB
    • Replies: @FB
  127. FB says: • Website

    I like cats too…

    Doubt it…

    You have just repeated all the usual nonsense peddled by completely uninformed people who hate cats…

    Feral cats are not a problem anywhere…there are no real ‘feral’ cats in Istanbul, because the human population has decided to coexist with cats in a very workable way…they thus do not need to be ‘wild’…

    As for birds…more birds are killed by other birds…have you ever seen a hawk catching a pigeon…?

    Probably not, since all of your ‘knowledge’ comes from the internet and not real life…

    If cats were a real threat to bird populations there would be no more birds left as of several million years ago…

    Also there is a real problem with non-native bird species just about everywhere…like anything to do with biology, there are no clear cut conclusions like your silly comment here…

    And this discussion is not about birds, nor cats…and that you have decided to chime in here with your idiotic, anti-feline diatribe has forced me to reply…which I don’t really want to do and would prefer to keep on topic…I hope this is the last I will be hearing from you…

    • Replies: @Robjil
  128. Talha says:

    Well that escalated rather quickly! 😬


  129. Smith says:

    Why is there no boomer pundits on Unz who cover the Greek-Turk border crisis at all?

  130. @Rahan

    Before the Industrial Revolution plucked western whites out of world history and made them technologically superior all-conquering alien invaders

    I would move that time earlier to the Age of Exploration. Also, Rome and Greece are in Europe, but I keep forgetting, Italians are not White, let alone Greeks. Also, Constantinople is in Europe, but see above.

    2) the “modern civilizations” with basic tech parity: West+Russia+Ottoman Empire+Persia+India+China.

    India was forced to accept Portuguese colonies and forts because of their technologically superior military in the sixteenth century. China was forced to cede Macao to the Portuguese and accept their domination of the lucerative spice trade.

    Who knows, maybe even Nigeria, 30 years from now.


    • Replies: @FB
    , @antibeast
    , @Parfois1
  131. FB says: • Website

    …Italians are not White…

    You’re going to go real far, bubba…maybe even to the far end of your double-wide…if you can waddle your ‘hippopotamus-size’ ass that far…

    • Replies: @Smith
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  132. @FB

    REAL technology means spacecraft, missiles, nuclear submarines and things like that…all areas where the Chinese are among the world leaders…

    Russia stole The Bomb from the US with the help of fellow travellers and the Russians gave t to the Chinese.

    China tests its first atomic bomb to become the world’s fifth nuclear power

    Prior to 1960, direct Soviet military assistance had included the provision of advisors and a vast variety of equipment. Of the assistance provided, most significant to China’s future strategic nuclear capability were an experimental nuclear reactor, facilities for processing uranium, a cyclotron, and some equipment for a gaseous diffusions plant.

  133. @Turk 152

    These pinheads who refer to Turkey as a shithole country have probably never traveled beyond Disneyworld.

    Well, personally, I’d rather go to Disneyworld than Turkey…

    But seriously, Turkey is on par with the 1st world.

    Turkish Star Wars

    Turkish Superman

    Turkish E.T.

    Turkish Spiderman

    Worst Dead Scene Ever !

  134. Rahan says:

    I love the comment section of Unz. Frequently enough it’s more informative than a whole issue of some highbrow mainstream mag.

    Not unlikely because many of the posters are just as smart, if not smarter, than the “mainstream pundits”, but can actually call a spade a spade due to anonymity and lack of stiffling “thread moderation”.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Showmethereal
  135. Wielgus says:
    @Just Passing Through

    I am not from Turkey but know many from there.
    Economic pressures are one reason for emigration to Europe. Probably the main one. Initially Germany was sold to Turks as a land of milk and honey in the 1960s, when many emigrated.
    Political repression in Turkey is up there as well as a motivation. There were noticeable waves of emigration after the 1980 military coup, or during the 1990s when there was an almost unreported dirty war going on as the Turkish authorities sought to stamp out the PKK and Turkish Kurds in particular emigrated abroad.
    Although the wave of emigration to England was smaller than the one to Germany, a strikingly high proportion of them are Alevis from Maraş, scene of a massacre in December 1978. There are indications Alevis outnumber Sunnis among Turks in England.

  136. Wielgus says:

    The bizarre coup attempt may have been an inside job by Erdoğan to strengthen his rule. I am not certain it was but regard it as a strong possibility.
    However, NATO countries and the EU have often winked at repression in Turkey. The 1980 military coup for example was endorsed by NATO countries despite mass arrests, dismissals from work, some deaths under torture and disappearances and the closure of every single political party in the country. Stopping Turkey doing an Iran or even slipping into the Soviet orbit was paramount, and many Turks believe the USA actually ordered the coup.
    Initially Erdoğan was seen as breaking with this repressive background although I never saw him as such.

    • Replies: @Talha
  137. Robjil says:

    FB, I like your comments. It is nice to know that the Turkish cat are not really feral, since they are being fed by people.

    I filmed lots of hawks eating pigeons. They like bigger birds and not the rare little ones as much.

    The diseased cat problem is a huge problem in Hawaii.

    Feral Cats are a Serious Threat to Hawai‘i’s Endangered Birds, Monk Seals and Dolphins
    Cats killing birds may seem a normal, if mildly distasteful, part of nature. But many cats also carry a microscopic parasite that causes toxoplasmosis, an infectious disease that threatens Hawai‘i’s endangered birds, monk seals and even dolphins. New Zealand and Australia have aggressive programs to eradicate invasive animals, including feral cats. How do we solve our cat problem?

    Putting collars with bells on cats would stop the problem for regular house cats.

    Sir David Attenborough has warned that cats are killing huge numbers of birds in British gardens.

    The TV naturalist said cat owners should buy bell collars for their pets to help stop the deaths.

    Sir David, 87, features the robin on the Christmas Day edition of Radio 4 programme Tweet Of The Day.

    This is off topic, this is the last bit about this. I like your very informative comments about this Turkish mess in Iblid.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  138. Shams says:

    They should be bombing the Turks

  139. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Russia stole The Bomb from the US with the help of fellow travellers

    How can Jews steal from Jews? It was the Jews (Einstein, Oppenheimer et al) who made the nuclear bomb (and Einstein and many others weren’t even American) so it’s only fair that the Jews in Russia should benefit from the work of Jews in America. Since when do Jews have an allegiance to any nation but their own? They certainly didn’t want their Russian Jews getting wiped out in any US nuclear strike and thankfully the non-Jew Russians were also saved. US had no more right to the outcome of the Manhattan Project than Russia.

    26 top Jews in the Manhattan Project:

    And many more Jews were involved in the project (e.g. Klaus Fuchs, Albert Einstein) than are given on the above list. How can Jews be “traitors” to Jews? Probably all the Jews on the Manhattan project also wanted the Russians to have the bomb, and the Rosenbergs, their conduit for getting the information out, were scapegoats. The correct word is “sharing”, not “treason”.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  140. antibeast says:

    China was forced to cede Macao to the Portuguese and accept their domination of the lucerative spice trade.

    That’s factually incorrect. Here’s the Wikipedia entry:

    “Macau was formerly a colony of the Portuguese Empire, after Ming China leased the territory (to the Portuguese) as a trading post in 1557. Between 1557 and 1887, Macau was governed by the Portuguese under Chinese authority and sovereignty with the Portuguese paying an annual land rent. In 1887, Portugal was given perpetual colonial rights for Macau which gave Portuguese sovereignty over Macau. The colony remained under Portuguese rule until 1999, when it was transferred to China. As a special administrative region, Macau maintains separate governing and economic systems from that of mainland China.”

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  141. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Russia stole The Bomb from the US with the help of fellow travellers and the Russians gave t to the Chinese.

    Ah yes, those dastardly orthodox Christians always backstabbing their host nations…

  142. Smith says:

    Read it carefully, Hippo is being sarcastic.

  143. @FB

    If Italians are white euros, then the Roman Empire was white euros, and they were technologically superior all-conquering alien invaders well before the Industrial Revolution.

    On second thought, I don’t want to have to pay reparations to descendants of Thracian slaves.

  144. @antibeast

    An oversight on my part.

    It doesn’t count as Europeans being greedy Colonizing dicks so long as they pay rent to the local ruler when they build a fortified trade outpost on their land.

    The original comment was about technological parity with China. Portugal, so far away from China and so much smaller in size, having such a large presence in sea trade in the area, and able to hold their own against others who may have coveted their profits, might indicate a technological advantage on their part.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  145. @Commentator Mike

    Einstein was at the Manhattan Project?

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  146. Smith says:

    A lot of Unz members (i.e. the regular chink shills like showsmethereal, d dan, Chinaman, and even some leftist like Parfois) and talk about chinese military dominance back in the Middle ages and the Renaissance and how it’s through pure “compassion” and “civilization” that they did not colonize like the evil and barbaric West did i.e. muh Zheng He’s treasure fleet.

    Well, look at actual military activities China did through the ages, they did try to invade and vassalize other lands, some they succeed (various kingdoms like West Xia and Dali were swallowed and depopulated by the mongol, then gained by the chinks), in some they were repelled (multiple invasions of Vietnam thorough the ages; the invasion of Japan by the combined mongol-chink-korean force).

    In modern day, they totally controlled Singapore despite it being an originally malaysian fisherman village.

    The idea that only westerners are an imperalistic bunch is a myth, it’s just that other civilizations failed to spread as much as the westerners.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  147. Wielgus says:
    @Just Passing Through

    You need an education to get a technological job, and Erdoğan’s foot soldiers tend to be obscurantist dimwits. There has been an issue of Turkey’s intelligence service MIT engaging in espionage abroad, and although it seems to mainly be spying on Turkish dissidents (and occasionally abducting them) they might be capable of technological or industrial espionage.

  148. @Hippopotamusdrome

    He started the whole programme going with a simple letter to the President, so I suppose he deserves some credit for it:

  149. Talha says:

    Initially Erdoğan was seen as breaking with this repressive background although I never saw him as such.

    Erdogan (or someone else who was in his place) was an inevitable development. The main sign for this was when the Islamic-leaning and fairly elected PM, the elderly Erbakan, was forced out by the military – something they had been used to doing. In that time also there were scandals that the army was engaging in drug dealing and what not during their war against Kurdish nationalists. In all, their star as the pillar of Turkish politics and main power brokers, since Ataturkism was first established, was fading.

    Erdogan’s party was elected to help put a check on some of this corruption and the military interference. On some fronts, this has been accomplished. But, as I stated, his administration jumped the shark a few years ago and many of his policies seem to be liabilities now. This will likely allow the pendulum to swing back into the secularist hands until they get high on power and do some stupid stuff too and then it’ll swing back…


    • Replies: @Wielgus
  150. @PlasticGangsta

    but religion aside I live in the UK and we would never countenance anything of the sort.

    You can’t be serious! Where is the British protest about the use of depleted uranium munitions, which is what has caused these horrific malformations in Iraqi babies?

    I assure you genetically signatured weapons would never be allowed by the populations of the western democracies

    You are living in a dream world. You don’t believe me?
    OK read this then:

    Then again there is no dispute that the USA, our “special” ally, supplied weaponised Anthrax spores to Saddam Hussein to use on the Iranians during the Iraq-Iranian War and he did. Did the British protest? Not as you would notice.

    It is far more dangerous when one person can propel a society into any action such as in Turkey, Russia, Syria as the leaders of these countries are not accountable.

    So just how “accountable” are Tony Blair, George Bush, Rumsfeldt and Colin Powell for dragging the UK and US into the war on Iraq on the basis of what they knew were lies? Update me if anything has happened to bring them to account, as I missed it.

    • Agree: NoseytheDuke
  151. @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    And, what would you replace them with? Ersatz Israel?

  152. @PlasticGangsta

    True they cant go against the electorate for too long…. So what many have done is master the art of turning the electorate into fools… Sometimes the electorate will vote against their own interest. And never underestimate the potential for one group to hate another so much that they will legislate evil. That includes in “western democracy”. It used to be along racial lines – in case you forget. Now all you have to do is be a masculine hetereosexual male and you are the enemy in a western democracy.

  153. @Alfred

    Oil prices dropped causing the biggest shakeout since 1991. We shall see what happens going forward – but pretty prescient stuff on your part.
    But one thing – i dont think Qatar belongs in the basket you put it in. The Saudis literally want to turn them into an island – by building a canal – because they hate them so much for not “falling in line”

  154. @PlasticGangsta

    Huh? Tye only reason Edrgoan doesnt have the F35 is because he insisted on the S400 from Russia. The US was begging him up to the last second. It seems the way the F35 program works is they farm out different parts of the work to dofferent “allies” to make it cheaper. Turkey had a piece if that construction pie. Some in the US were arguing to still give them the F35 based on that.
    As to the talk of democracy. Oh please – stronger countries only tolerate a democracy in a weaker country if they vote in people who tow tye line of the stronger country. Election meddling is rampant and has been for decades!!! And I am not talking about what Russiamhas been accused of.

  155. Lo says:

    That is, if you accept that they know what they are talking about. Which I know is the case more often than not.

  156. Wielgus says:

    What has replaced some of the army and Kemalist corruption is AKP corruption. For example, members of the AKP’s youth wing and AKP-appointed police have been caught smuggling drugs in their cars. Erdoğan has sought to control the media as much as possible to stop embarrassing disclosures like that from getting out.
    Gradual erosion of his support has caused him to rely increasingly on back-up from the MHP, linked to the Grey Wolves organisation. This has an expansionist agenda, for example regarding Syria’s Aleppo Province and the whole of Cyprus as Turkish territory, and it may be a factor in Erdoğan overreaching in recent years.

    • Replies: @Talha
  157. @Alfred

    Russian Military Police in Syria are Muslims from places like Chechnya.

    It shows to what extent Putin can trust them against the same among the terrorists. On the other hand, Erdogan’s Turkish troops are deserting to the terrorists even while still wearing their uniforms.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  158. Parfois1 says:

    India was forced to accept Portuguese colonies and forts because of their technologically superior military in the sixteenth century. China was forced to cede Macao to the Portuguese and accept their domination of the lucrative spice trade.

    True mostly about India, but not so much about China. Macao was ceded to the Portuguese as a base to clear the South China Sea of pirates; it was not a conquest. The Portuguese Empire in the East was the seaborne model later adopted by the British on the back of strong navies ( similar to the modern imperial ambitions of the US) and control of the choke points of sea trade routes – the reason for the conquests of a string of strategic places along the Indian coasts, Malacca in the East and Hormuz at the head of the Persian Gulf.

    The Portuguese ships and seamanship were superior but there was no great technological difference in land battles – the difference was in the superior organization and deployment of troops on the battlefield where the Europeans were always outnumbered by a factor of 10:1 or greater, sometimes against Persians and Turks as in frequent battles in Oman and Bahrain – even to the Horn of Africa – for the control of land and sea trade routes.

  159. Parfois1 says:

    The idea that only westerners are an imperalistic bunch is a myth, it’s just that other civilizations failed to spread as much as the westerners.

    Indeed, it is a myth, perhaps because the European expansion was the latest and the most comprehensive in human history – they controlled the whole world until quite recently, except a few irrelevant pockets, although the US elites – emboldened by Jewish ambitions – are still dreaming of robing the imperial mantle.

    I have not made a serious attempt at studying the emergence – and eventual fall – of empires (took a long time to digest Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) but, applying a dialectical approach to such study, you may see similarities with the capitalist tendency of competition towards a monopolistic goal by eliminating rivals. This process carries within the seeds of the dominant power’s downfall because another competitor will eventually emerge and another cycle begin. The more recent battle of empires is the epitome of that process where the Austrian, French, German, British, Ottoman and Russian empires slaughtered each other and paved the way for the rise of the short US pseudo-empire at the conclusion of the war in 1945 (there was an interval between 1918 and 1939).

    The analogy is clearly seen if you see capitalism as an internal battle by capital (enterprises) for markets and resources in a country; and imperialism as an external battle by countries for markets and resources in the world. So modern imperialism is a carry-over of capitalism to the international arena. Of course, earlier empires were not run by capitalist economic system (e.g. Mongol nomadic empire was different from the Russian agrarian empire) but their formation and competition were motivated by the same competition forces on which capitalism is based.

    Imperialism is an antiquated and obsolete concept. Past societies could accommodate adaptations to a new imperial sovereign (sometimes just an exchange of an elite for another) but the last clash – catastrophic as it was for some countries – pales in comparison with the next one if the US doesn’t radically change itself and become a normal country. A first step in that direction is to respect international law so that no other country fears interference or invasion.

    China may not want to become a superpower, but will become one out of necessity.

    • Replies: @Smith
    , @Kim
  160. @Rahan

    Indeed a lot of mainstream media controls the comments sections. A lot of blogs – including National Interest censored comments and now have done away with comments. Thought control it seems.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  161. @Robjil

    You are correct about ferals. They are not natural predators. They are over bred human induced species. Natural predators of similar capability do not expand so much. Half their litters often starve because they arent being fed by people who feel sorry for them. Others die from other predators who want to take out the competition. Nature balances itself. Ferals are “artificial”.

    • Agree: Robjil
  162. Smith says:

    Civilization arises to battle other civilization until a balance can be made. Empire arises with civilization, culture is in fact a form of weapon.

    The rise of China isn’t so much as China is competent, but USA is inherently self-destructive with a contradictory ideology that is never found in so much nature or history (LARPing as rugged individualism that amplifies greed gets you destroyed by organized collective). Every successful tribes rely on a collective headed by a leader or a council, no exception.

    Also, both China and USA are capitalist in mode of production, what really destroys USA is that USA decides to let China make stuff for them, this act alone would get head rolled in classical/medieval societies. You don’t sell trade secrets and become dependent on your rival/enemy, that’s plain suicide.

    Also, the degeneration of morality and culture. USA’s morality and culture have descended really low, to the point where it infects and endangers other cultures (european and japanese are very much negatively affected by USA’s “culture”).

    USA makes all the wrong moves, if it continues to exist, it will just damage the world further.

  163. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Is that Turkish troops going over to IS or Al Qaeda? If so I don’t find it surprising as Erdoğan has moved to Islamicise Turkish society and that would just be the next step even though IS regards Erdoğan as tağut or a fake Muslim.
    There may have been Kurdish soldiers in the Turkish army who went over to the PKK in the 1990s. In 2007 or 2008 a few were captured by the PKK in northern Iraq and for propaganda reasons the PKK released them. The Turkish state took legal action against at least some of the released soldiers for being supposedly terrorist sympathisers, although the evidence for this was thin and was as far as I could tell a punishment for being captured alive by terrorists and not fighting to the death.

  164. @Wielgus


    I was just interpreting recent events in a humorous way. I suppose the Turkish soldiers were ordered to support the Al Qaida terrorists in Idlib. Whether they acted too enthusiastically and overstepped any orders I don’t know. Obviously they went beyond the Sochi agreement by giving cover to the terrorists to the displeasure of Russia who have now reined in Erdogan. But six hours of negotiations seems a long time to just more or less reconfirm a previous ceasefire. I wonder what that windbag Erdogan had to say and how much of it was genuine and true. Surely Russian intelligence would know fairly well what’s going on there. Also, there could be some Turkish military personnel actually acting in the field disguised at terrorists. Especially at the time they were buying oil from ISIS when it controlled the oil fields – they may have offered some supervision to the transports.

    • Replies: @Plato's Dream
    , @Wielgus
  165. Talha says:

    AKP corruption


    Erdoğan has sought to control the media as much as possible to stop embarrassing disclosures


    Erdoğan overreaching in recent years.

    Yup. Basically you outlined the reasons why I don’t really think he has much chance in the next election cycle. This was exactly what got the previous guys replaced.


    • Replies: @Wielgus
  166. Talha says:

    IS regards Erdoğan as tağut or a fake Muslim.

    Daesh is so extreme that they have gotten into clashes with al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda told them to knock it off multiple times:
    “The fallout from the split between the Islamic State and Al Qaeda has led to a competition viewed by both sides as zero sum in nature…Even after pledging his loyalty to bin Laden and assuming the al-Qaeda moniker, Zarqawi still ignored directions from al-Qaeda’s core leadership and narrowly pursued his own sectarian agenda in hopes of igniting a Sunni–Shia civil war, first within Iraq, and then throughout the wider Islamic world. One of al-Qaeda’s first steps to present itself as more evenhanded was denouncing blatant sectarianism and working to convince AQI to jettison sectarianism as a guiding principle. When, in July 2005, Zawahiri penned a letter to the leader of AQI chastising him for his group’s wanton slaughter of Shiites, the former stressed the overall negative impact these actions were having on the al-Qaeda brand and urged him to eschew targeting other Muslims.”

    This is good; if these guys can be isolated in particular theaters, they will tear each other apart in a sectarian one-upmanship spiral; Khawarij always do this…always. As Imam Ibn Kathir (ra) said succinctly many centuries ago:
    “If the Khawarij ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire earth, Iraq, and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.”

    In fact, Daesh got their butts kicked so hard by the Taliban in Afghanistan that they turned themselves into the Afghan government. Think on that a bit, they had less to fear from the Afghan government than the Taliban – ponder on that for a bit:
    “The Taliban reportedly just beat ISIS so badly that more than 200 fighters surrendered to the Afghan government. About 200 to 250 ISIS fighters turned themselves into the Afghan government on Wednesday after a fierce two-day battle against the Taliban in the northern province of Jawzjan.”

    The only group anywhere close to the level of extremism of Daesh is Boko Haram*:

    But nobody pays attention to them in the West because they don’t really have reach into Europe at all (unlike Daesh with their vehicle-ramming attacks) and black-African on black-African violence (as long as Nigerian oil keeps flowing) is even further below list of priorities than kebab on kebab violence.


    *Pretty awesome that my Sufi Order (Naqshbandi) got called out, even though they screwed up its pronunciation – would have felt left out otherwise.

  167. @Commentator Mike

    Well it wasn’t just to “reconfirm” the previous ceasefire (on new lines). It was also to agree a security corridor along the M4, joint action against HTS (which of course the Turks will renege on again) etc.

  168. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Sorry about that. Not always possible to detect humour on the Net and there have occasionally been defections to the PKK by Turkish soldiers of Kurdish origin – they were conscripts and less than totally devoted to Turkey. In recent years the state has preferred to use vetted professional soldiers – typically uzman çavuş or “expert sergeant” grades who might actually believe in what they are doing.

  169. Wielgus says:

    I think the temptation to cheat large-scale will be there. I think there has been smallish-scale cheating in previous elections and the AKP controls the state machinery, or much of it, enabling shenanigans. Erdoğan has not pretended everyone loves him and has gone with 52 per cent-ish election wins, perhaps small-scale cheating helped tip the scales, but he really does not want to lose power – he has been corrupt and brutal enough to worry about being jailed if he does (a bit like Netanyahu, actually).

    • Replies: @Talha
  170. Talha says:

    I think there has been smallish-scale cheating in previous elections and the AKP controls the state machinery, or much of it, enabling shenanigans.

    I’m sure that’s there. Hell, it happens over in the US also.

    Erdoğan has not pretended everyone loves him and has gone with 52 per cent-ish election wins

    Well it’s certainly a hell of a lot smarter than the way most Arab governments, who hold elections, do it; 95+% – really – who the hell are they kidding?! And your son magically takes over?! I mean, just declare it a monarchy and be done with it that’s just much more respectable. Algeria was at least running at a more respectable 80+% for a while.

    but he really does not want to lose power


    worry about being jailed if he does

    That’s always the concern, but usually, you can expect a pardon from the new administration with the right wheeling and dealing. Mubarak ended up walking eventually and the only charge that stuck to him was embezzlement despite all the other charges.

    defections to the PKK by Turkish soldiers of Kurdish origin

    Pretty incredible development given that the Kurds were historically the most loyal Ottoman subjects around a century ago.


    • Replies: @Wielgus
  171. Wielgus says:

    I think Turkish nationalism stimulated the development of Kurdish nationalism. The Ottoman Empire was above it all in a way but Kemalism in the new Republic was not.
    Kenan Evren, who headed the 1980 military coup, relinquished power only after redrafting the constitution and receiving guarantees of immunity. He was under various legal threats but managed to die in 2015 at the age of 97 without being incarcerated. However, Adnan Menderes was executed after being removed and imprisoned by an earlier coup (admittedly a different situation) and that seems to be Erdoğan’s nightmare scenario.

    • Replies: @Talha
  172. @Talha

    What Europeans? The “Germans” and “French” and “Austrians” operating the robots and computers will largely be Muslims themselves by 2050.

    In Austria they’ll be Turks more than anything else. At the least, Turkey could take Austria and perhaps Greece.

    • Replies: @Talha
  173. Talha says:

    I think Turkish nationalism stimulated the development of Kurdish nationalism.


    “Especially among the Kurds, the caliphate had been held in high esteem. When, at the outset of the First World War, the Sultan in his capacity of Caliph or supreme leader of all Orthodox Muslims proclaimed a jihad, most Kurds rallied to the call. The large sums that had been spent by Russians in an attempt to buy some Kurdish chiefs’ loyalties were of no avail, nor could emotional appeals by Kurdish nationalists complete against the Caliph’s word…As Van Bruneissen observes, it was not until this supra-ethnic bond was severed with the elimination of the caliphate that ‘more or less nationalist-inspired revolts’ began to emerge among the Kurds.
    Longing for the Lost Caliphate: A Transregional History (Princeton Univ. Press)

    “Confronted with the choice of being annexed at some point by Persia or formally accepting the supremacy of the Ottoman sultan in exchange for a very wide autonomy, the Kurdish leaders opted for this second solution and thus Kurdistan, or more exactly its countless fiefs and principalities entered the Ottoman bosom by the path of diplomacy. Idrissi Bidlissi’s mission was facilitated by the fact that he was a well-known and respected scholar and, above all, by the immense prestige of his father, the Sheikh Hussameddin who was a very influential sufi spiritual chief…This particular status was to assure Kurdistan about three centuries of peace. The Ottomans controlled some strategic garrisons on the Kurdish territory, but the rest of the country was governed by the Kurdish lords and princes…Despite interferences from time to time from the central power, this particular status, to the satisfaction of the Kurds and the Ottomans, functioned without any major hitch until the beginning of the XIXth century. The Ottomans, protected by the powerful Kurdish barrier against Iran, were able to concentrate their forces on other fronts. As for the Kurds, they were virtually independent in the management of their affairs…For its part, the traditional wing of the Kurdish movement, which was well established in Kurdish society and which was mainly dominated by religious leaders, tried to ‘avoid Christian peril in the East and West’ and to create ‘a state of Turks and Kurds’ in the muslim territories liberated from foreign occupation. The idea was generous and fraternal….The first forces of Turkey’s war of independence were in fact recruited from the Kurdish provinces.”

    However, Adnan Menderes was executed after being removed and imprisoned by an earlier coup (admittedly a different situation) and that seems to be Erdoğan’s nightmare scenario.

    Good point. But the “admittedly a different situation” is a very important point; the Turkish military hasn’t been completely de-fanged as far as involvement in civil politics, but the last coup attempt certainly showed it had lost its invulnerable mojo.


    • Thanks: Turk 152
    • Replies: @Wielgus
  174. Talha says:

    operating the robots and computers will largely be Muslims themselves by 2050.

    But I thought the contention is that they are incapable of operating these robots due to lack of intellectual capabilities. For example, if you literally handed the Taliban a free nuclear-tipped ICBM, they wouldn’t be able to do anything with it other than potentially get cancer. It’s not like a Wiley Coyote device that you simply stick a long bomb fuse to the end of and light it.

    Sure they can fire a rifle or throw a grenade or repair a tank or a 1960’s generation jet (like a Mirage 5) or a 1960’s helicopter (like a Cobra), but I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing.


    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  175. Wielgus says:

    Although bloodier and larger-scale, the 2016 coup attempt reminded me of two half-assed coup attempts by Talat Aydemir, an army colonel who had served with Turkish forces in Korea. He made a failed attempt in 1962 and another in 1963, apparently having come into conflict with the organisers of the 1960 coup. Aydemir was executed in 1964.

    • Thanks: Talha
  176. @ValMond

    About half of German men are nearing age fifty or older. Will you send them back to fight?

    Would you urge your government to supply the Germans or French or Italians with arms and support to drive out the Muslims? I hope so.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
  177. @FB

    Don’t feel the need to return your insults.

    The fact remains: Having a TFR below replacement, as Russians do every year for more than 25 consecutive years, means a net loss of native population.

    That means a net loss of total population unless in-migration makes up the difference.

    As for Turkey, I’m of course glad to see their TFR declining now, though its population is not yet shrinking and its TFR is much, much closer to replacement level than Russians’ TFR.

    There is no Russian-majority oblast or other jurisdiction in the RF with TFR near replacement. If I recall right, the few places where TFR is at or slightly above replacement level in the RF are Chechnya (almost no ethnic Russians and no NonMuslims), Tuva, and not much else.

    The fact that other peoples (white European people in the USA, Germany, France, Italy, etc) are also becoming older and less numerous, has nothing to do with the fact that the actual Russian population is both aging and on balance declining. So your argument there is, “oh yeah, well OTHER peoples are starting to die out too.”

    Russia’s median age is nearly FORTY.
    Turkey’s median age is a shade under 31.

    Anatoly Karlin has posted more detailed stats and charts showing that the pattern has what he considers relatively hopeful upticks. But neither his stats nor yours EVER show a TFR for the RF that is at replacement level — usually it is far below.

    I actually WANT Russians, as well as all the European peoples, to reproduce above replacement level, which you’d know if you read my comments.

    But neither my hopes nor your insults change reality.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  178. Avery says:

    { a punishment for being captured alive by terrorists and not fighting to the death.}

    I know you are using the term ‘terrorist’ for PKK as used by Turks, but PKK can hardly be labelled ‘terrorists’ judging by their actions: I have no love for Kurds or PKK (….for historical reasons), but PKK’s fights and bombing have been targeting Turk military or other agents of the fascist Turk State (paramilitary police, gendarmerie, etc). I don’t recall PKK deliberately targeting civilians. There is a small offshoot of PKK, very violent, don’t remember their name, that may have.

    As to the label ‘terrorist’ , nomad Islamist Turk invaders are the original ISIS and the original terrorists.

    As to terrorism: there is a long list of Turk government or its agents conducting pure terrorist attacks on Kurd civilians, such as:

    -2015 October bombing of peaceful Kurd Peace rally in Ankara that killed 95 civilian Kurds. 100s wounded.
    -2015 July bombing of another Kurd cultural center in Suruc, which killed 30-40 civilian Kurds.
    -2011 Bombing of Kurd civilian smugglers – smuggling civilian goods, most of them teenagers – by the Turk air force, supposedly by mistake. 35 or so were killed.

    More recently the Turk State/Intelligence were implicated in at least one false-flag chemical terrorist attack in Syria.

    The list of Turk terrorism since the cursed day the Asiatic nomads invaded Asia Minor is long and bloody.

    • Replies: @anon
  179. Wielgus says:

    Sometimes I put quotation marks around words like that, sometimes I don’t bother. I was writing how they view the PKK, not necessarily how I do. Personally I have a well-developed loathing for Erdoğan and the Turkish state. I am pretty well-informed about Turkey but I can lay no claim to objectivity about the people who run it.
    The offshoot is TAK which is a Kurdish acronym for Kurdistan Freedom Hawks (or Falcons).

  180. Turk 152 says:

    “Would you urge your government to supply the Germans or French or Italians with arms and support to drive out the Muslims? I hope so.”

    Don’t feel the need to return your insults.”

    You are complaining about being insulted by FB, while advocating for ethnic cleansing?

    UR is such a roll of the dice. One poster, is the most brilliant person that I have encountered in a long time, the next is a raving lunatic.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @RadicalCenter
  181. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    advocating for ethnic cleansing?

    Ah – a new guy…bro, this happens on every other thread around here concerning one or another target ethnicity or religion or whatever. Get used to it.


    • Replies: @Turk 152
    , @RadicalCenter
  182. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:

    Who is forcing Turkey ???

    “Such a threat must be primarily military in nature. At present there are three relatively hostile elements around Syria’s borders: Israel, Iraq and Turkey. Consideration must be given to orchestrating a credible military threat against Syria in order to induce at least some moderate change in its policies.” CIA 1983

    This paper proposes serious examination of the use of all three states – acting independently – to exert the necessary threat. Use of any one state in isolation cannot create such a credible threat.

    The strategy is like the Brookings Institution today. For instance, in the Brookings document “Middle East Memo #21: Saving Syria: Assessing Options For Regime Change,” it says,

    “Turkey’s participation would be vital for success, and Washington would have to encourage the Turks to play a more helpful role than they have so far. While Ankara has lost all patience with Damascus, it has taken few concrete steps that would increase the pressure on Asad (and thereby antagonize Tehran). Turkish policy toward the Syrian opposition has actually worked at cross-purposes with American efforts to foster a broad, unified national organization. With an eye to its own domestic Kurdish dilemmas, Ankara has frustrated efforts to integrate the Syrian Kurds into a broader opposition framework. In addition, it has overtly favored the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood over all other opposition groups. Washington must impress upon Turkey the need to be more accommodating of legitimate Kurdish political and cultural demands in a post-Asad Syria, and to be less insistent on the primacy of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Some voices in Washington and Jerusalem are exploring whether Israel could contribute to coercing Syrian elites to remove Asad. The Israelis have the region’s most formidable military, impressive intelligence services, and keen interests in Syria. In addition, Israel’s intelligence services have a strong knowledge of Syria, as well as assets within the Syrian regime that could be used to subvert the regime’s power base and press for Asad’s removal. Israel could posture forces on or near the Golan Heights and, in so doing, might divert regime forces from suppressing the opposition. This posture may conjure fears in the Asad regime of a multi-front war, particularly if Turkey is willing to do the same on its border and if the Syrian opposition is being fed a steady diet of arms and training. Such a mobilization could perhaps persuade Syria’s military leadership to oust Asad in order to preserve itself. Advocates argue this additional pressure could tip the balance against Asad inside Syria, if other forces were aligned properly.”

    The bastards never stop
    2007 Redirection
    Sy Hersh

    Seymour Hersh wrote in his article, “The Redirection,”
    To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has cooperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.

    • Replies: @Meena
  183. Corvinus says:

    “I actually WANT Russians, as well as all the European peoples, to reproduce above replacement level…”

    A noble intention. But the reality is that Europeans and Americans, aka Western folks, have other pressing needs to attend to. How about let us make sure that we marry and procreate healthy offspring regardless of this benchmark, whether or not it’s within a race or outside the race.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  184. Meena says:

    It is obvious that the relentless pursuits of capitalism as showcased by religious rights – Protestant Ethics
    , have left no internal moral checks and balances.

    The moral acceptance of destructive financial activities
    gets reorganized around many other facets of existence both national and international levels .

    Pushing Turkey is the expression of that -‘Protestant ethics ‘ distorted by greed , profit , shamelessness and pervert nepotistic individualism where self includes pans daughters siblings nephews and garbs kids .

    We have set the world on fire .

    Some try to read this cookbook by trying to figure out the ethnic origin of certain ingredients of the recipe .
    Morons try to find emotionally acceptable meaning because truth demolishes faith in organized hrutsinaity or Eurocentric view of the politics.

    • Replies: @Meena
  185. Meena says:

    “organized hrutsinait

    Organized Christianity

  186. Turk 152 says:

    I see, too worldly of a crowd for the hypocrisy of ethnic cleansing argument; not sure what else I have to contribute.

    • Replies: @Talha
  187. @Talha

    I’ve never stated or implied that all Muslims are unintelligent, and I’m aware that numerous muslim communities do not suffer from the degree of detrimental inbreeding that reportedly afflicts, say, Pakistanis in the UK.

    Germany and Austria will have enough Muslims — whether Turk, Arab, or mixed Turk- or Arab-German — with the desire for a Muslim takeover of those countries … and sufficient intelligence and competence to operate (or refuse to operate at key times) defensive computer systems, robots, and the like.

    • Replies: @Talha
  188. @Turk 152

    Islam is not a race or ethnicity, as you know.

    I also didn’t call for attacking Arabs, Turks, Pakistanis, Egyptians, etc., in their own countries.
    Quite the contrary, as you and your “bro” Talha should see from my anti-war comments.’

    You’re attacking an argument that I didn’t make.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
  189. @Talha

    Islam is not a race or ethnicity, as you know.

    I also didn’t tell Turk182 that we or Europeans should go attack Turks in Turkey, arabs in the Middle East, Pakistanis in Pakistan, etc. you knew that too. My comment to Turk182 wasn’t complicated, “bro.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  190. Talha says:
    @Turk 152

    too worldly of a crowd for the hypocrisy of ethnic cleansing argument

    Well, I’m not really going to speculate on what drives it, but I’ve just been here a while and noticed some trends among comments. If I was a betting man, I’d say that pretty much 40-50% (give or take 5%) of the commentariat wouldn’t mind a full-fledged genocide of their particular group(s) of choice and AS LONG AS it doesn’t happen against their particular race/tribe/whatever.

    And if sub-Saharan Africa is in question; then I’d safely say close to 10-15% wouldn’t mind completely depopulating it of its various people – minus any Europeans that may be leftovers from the old pith helmet days.

    Again, just my general observations, make of it what you will.


  191. Talha says:

    I never said you did in particular, but it just seems to be the common wisdom around these parts; am I wrong?

    The natives could also start going Muzzie:

    By the way, interesting new book by Prof. Dutton on the subject. Hoping to get my hands on it:


  192. @Talha

    It is obviously all satire and no me would actually want such a thing as it is horrific, what many would want is a humane mass repatriation program, possibly with cash incentives.

    You Muslims need to chill and stop projecting your genocidal fantasies on White people.

    • Replies: @Talha
  193. Talha says:

    Never said you did advocate attacking Pakistanis and Turks and Arabs in their countries, you simply advocate cleansing the European continent of kebab and non-whites, correct? I certainly don’t see what’s complicated here.

    Plus, I was talking more in general terms not about you in particular.


  194. Turk 152 says:

    Ethnic cleansing doesn’t count if you do it in your own country? You should talk to some Armenians about that idea.

  195. Talha says:

    wouldn’t mind a full-fledged genocide of their particular group(s) of choice

    OK – this was really poorly worded. Genocide is NOT the right word for what I’ve seen since that implies killing off…rather “ethnic cleansing” is the more accurate since it is the removal of target group(s) from a particular region or area. So, for instance, what the Algerian nationalists did to the French colonists after independence was boiler-plate ethnic cleansing. Now one can argue justification or not for what took place, but I think definitions are good to have grounded accurately.

  196. Kim says:

    China may not want to become a superpower, but will become one out of necessity.

    Won’t happen. Necessity can’t produce the required types of energy.

    There has never been a hegemon that has been able to dominate without independent energy resources. The energy sources of the modern era – say, post 1650 – have been coal and oil and timber and wind (the sails and the wooden ships of the great sailing empires faded away only in the second half of the 19th C). China has very little oil and only low quality coal and sailing empires are not coming back any time soon.

    We are entering now into the declining days of fossil-fuel enabled-globalization. China missed that boat and there are no next-generation technologies that can take the place of fossil fuels.

    Of course, we have had this conversation before but people don’t seem to be able to grok the message that there is no replacement for oil. For a very clear illustraion of that, I recommend that readers familiarize themselves with the concept of The Cubic Mile of Oil.

    And before people flood in with their figures on various national oil reserves, please bear in mind that one billion barrels of oil = just twelve days of global consumption. A billion barrels of oil ain’t much. And then there are questions of where it is, how much it costs to pull out, the quality of the oil, and so on. So no, Godfrey Roberts, China does not have any oil worth mentioning.

    • Replies: @roonaldo
  197. Kim says:

    The best thing about Turkey when I was there was that I found their women were an easy lay.

  198. Talha says:
    @Just Passing Through

    It is obviously all satire

    a humane mass repatriation program, possibly with cash incentives.

    Sure. It’s a nicer form of ethnic cleansing, like a Mister Roger’s version.

    Hey look, anybody can advocate for whatever policy they want – no sweat off my back.

    One thing though, what happens if Ali Kebabistani doesn’t want to leave even with the cash incentive? Just wondering…

    You Muslims need to chill and stop projecting your genocidal fantasies on White people.

    Nah, man – I said this to someone on another thread a while back:
    “But, I am offering you advice because, whether I’m here or not, I actually want to see your community prosper – I have nothing against Whites. If they can succeed as a community and rectify themselves, then the whole world will benefit. I am married to a White convert woman (Swedish stock) and I love my in-laws dearly and have a huge respect specifically for Swedes and am probably more familiar with their history than most of them are.”

    I don’t see things as a zero-sum game. I have no problems wishing the best for whites and seeing them grow and prosper (in this world and the next) – doesn’t bother me one bit. God is Merciful, He is Bountiful. In fact, I’d like to see their numbers go back up to replacement levels. They seem to be their own worst enemy in this regard; don’t know what they have against beautiful, chubby white babies.

    We have plenty of Bosnians in our community; they have tons of kids (more so than others to be accurate). We consider each other brothers, invite each other to our kids’ weddings, houses, go camping, break fasts together, etc.


    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  199. @Showmethereal

    National Interest comments became a travesty maybe a couple of years ago. Heavy censorship destroyed them, so if they removed that crap now, nothing was lost.

    In fact, National Interest went the way of many MSM websites. 10-12 years ago The Guardian had comments for every article, with minimal censorship (basically, you weren’t allowed to use swearwords and personal insults). Then they started pushing false narrative about Russia-Georgia war of 2008. Then the number of false narratives gradually increased: the coup in Ukraine, the liberation of Aleppo, and terrorist-staged “chemical attacks” in Syria are just a few examples. As the fraction of lies increased, the censorship became heavier. As of a few years ago, they did not allow comments on anything meaningful. Don’t know whether that’s still the case or they dispensed with comments altogether – did not visit that site for some years. It became totally useless as a source of news: finding anything true in the heap of lies there is like finding a spec of gold in a pile of shit.

    Unz is one of very few sites where comments aren’t heavily censored. The places where freedom of speech is real are becoming few and far between.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  200. roonaldo says:

    You say “there are no next-generation technologies that can take the place of fossil fuels…people can’t seem to grok the message that there is no replacement for oil.”

    On the contrary, Andrei Rossi’s team is in Europe for industrial testing of their LENR technology. Go to for starters.

    Then go to, join the conversation, and discuss why you doubt the feasibility of the technology.

    Then check out Aureon Energy at and their SAFIRE project. They provide explanations, diagrams, and videos of their technology. Please discuss with their technologists and physicists why they should abandon the next phase of development of their reactor.

  201. Wielgus says:

    That is a pretty accurate description of the commentariat. I used to be a little shocked by some of the comments but perhaps I should have got out more. Whether genocidal or ethnic cleansing is the right word for it, I am unconvinced by the attempt to claim it is all just “satire”.

    • Replies: @Turk 152
    , @Talha
  202. @Talha

    If life was made as uncomfortable as possible for racial foreigners, i.e ban Halal and Kosher food, shut down all non-Christian places of worship and scrap hate speech/affirmative action legislation. Many would take the money.

    The UK for example send out £13bn in foreign aid every year, imagine if we gave £50,000 per head to any non-White willing to permanently leave the country and settle in one of their choosing, we could potentially remove 260,000 people per year!

    Furthermore, a family of 5 or 6 Muslims could end up getting £250-300,000 which would be a huge amount in their home countries. In fact it would be better distributed than foreign aid as the latter always ends up in the hands of corrupt leaders or NGOs. That family of 5 or 6 Muslims could buy a big house in Pakistan or India and have plenty of money left over to inject into the local community which in turn would boost the economy.

    This would all be voluntary and no one would be forced out with violence. This way the very Westernised and intelligent non-Whites could stay and in fact someone like you would find his living conditions even better as all the scummy Muslims will leave and you will no longer have to feel tied to their antics.

    We could also have a scheme for allowing these people to be trained up in the handwork trades (plumbing, carpentry etc) so they could make their home countries better.

    I truly want non-Whites to live in their own countries which are clean and prosperous, it is complete luck which race/nationality we are born into and it must be a bad feeling to be an intelligent Third Worlder knowing you fellow people are not very smart and you will always be dragged down by being associated with them.

    I personally think there need to be a worldwide eugenics program that preserves racial and cultural diversity whilst also lowering the population. Sadly Jews would never allow this as they want to be the master race.

  203. Mike P says:

    If climate change were a real problem, which it is not, then the logical answer would be nuclear power. Nuclear power works, but it was deliberately discredited and destroyed to create the conditions for the current “poverty-for-all-to-save-the-planet” hoax.

    There is no need to pin our hopes on the “next generation” of reactors – not that there is anything wrong with them, of course, the more the merrier. However, Germany had a ~700 MW thorium reactor (at Hamm-Uentrop) online already in the friggin 70s. It was shut down after some years of operation due to “technical issues” that seemed entirely resolvable.

    There is enough thorium to power the planet at a healthy rate of growth for centuries. Also, thorium fission produces a lot less long-lived radioactive waste than uranium.

    Any country that achieves enough independence from the globalist kabal to simply restart and develop nuclear power will run away with it and leave everyone else in the dust, economically.

  204. @roonaldo

    He means the economic feasibility, not technological.

    • Replies: @roonaldo
  205. Turk 152 says:

    I think it can be captured in Arendts writings. It is an interaction with a group without taking personal responsibility for thoughts. The need to protect ones group becomes a moral imperative. We see it played out repeatedly, it is the same set of thoughts that become commonplace, not serious, just normal, “satire” is not that off the mark.

  206. Talha says:

    Part of of it has to do with anonymity. It seems to bring out inner demons. Fairly par-for-the-course on social media and internet interactions in general. You just have to get used to it and not let it distract you too much.

    I am unconvinced by the attempt to claim it is all just “satire”.

    I certain that some of it is, just as I’m certain some of it isn’t.


  207. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Just Passing Through

    I personally think there need to be a worldwide eugenics program that preserves racial and cultural diversity whilst also lowering the population. Sadly Jews would never allow this as they want to be the master race.

    I agree. It’s a good idea but it clashes at the moment with the Tribe’s worldwide dysgenic program for the gentiles

    Cash incentives are also a good idea but I would start from zero – for those with criminal records or deceptive applications – and gradually increase amounts from there. Many of them would leave for as little as 2-3K Euros.

    Angela Merkel Offers Migrants Cold Hard Cash To Leave Germany

    Paid Leave: France Offers Migrants €2,500 to Return Home

  208. @PlasticGangsta

    Ottomanism. I mean Ottomanism must be eradicated. Just like Wahhabi Saudi Barbaria.

  209. Wielgus says:

    What I think is a pretty good analysis of Erdoğan’s problems in Syria and at home.

  210. Talha says:
    @Just Passing Through

    If life was made as uncomfortable as possible for racial foreigners, i.e ban Halal and Kosher food, shut down all non-Christian places of worship

    Sure, I guess this might work for kebab, but not for random non-Muslim darkies.

    scrap hate speech/affirmative action legislation.

    That might get the others.

    …could end up getting £250-300,000 which would be a huge amount in their home countries…This would all be voluntary and no one would be forced out with violence.

    Tough to argue against that, to be honest. And since I don’t approve of Muslims moving to the West for bling-bling, I certainly have no problem with this.

    in fact someone like you would find his living conditions even better as all the scummy Muslims will leave and you will no longer have to feel tied to their antics.

    I actually don’t mind staying or leaving (leaving would obviously be a huge inconvenience, and more so for my wife since she is a white born-in-the-West, but even she is game to move). And yes, the Muslims who come here for bling-bling often end up getting involved in stupidity that is both harmful to their own souls (in a free society in which they can’t seem to control themselves) and the society around them and the image of Islam due to association (which gets in the way of inviting people to it).

    We could also have a scheme for allowing these people to be trained up in the handwork trades (plumbing, carpentry etc) so they could make their home countries better.

    Reverse brain drain – can’t argue with that.

    it is complete luck which race/nationality we are born into


    it must be a bad feeling to be an intelligent Third Worlder knowing you fellow people are not very smart and you will always be dragged down by being associated with them.

    I don’t know if you are talking about me in particular, but I don’t feel bad. Sure, the people from the Indian subcontinent (or Pakistan, where I’m from) have a bunch of stuff that could be improved in their culture, but they have some great things too. And it would be an act of ingratitude for me to feel disdain for the womb which my Creator chose to bear me in this world. I am pleased with what He was pleased with for me.

    I personally think there need to be a worldwide eugenics program that preserves racial and cultural diversity whilst also lowering the population.

    Interesting idea. In my experience, the only people being open to government being involved in their mating choices/patterns in this regard seem to be some Westerners (and maybe East Asians).


    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  211. roonaldo says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Hello. The Rossi LENR and Aureon Energy SAFIRE systems are inexpensive to build, use common and abundant elements (nickel and hydrogen, respectively), produce no pollution nor radioactive waste, and were built on shoestring budgets–they are eminently feasible, economically. LENR (low energy nuclear reaction, once called “cold fusion”) research has for decades been ignored, sneered at, and resisted by mainstream physics in favor of big budget glamour projects. The times, they are a-changin’.

  212. @Smith

    As a proud Anglo I say…… your welcome.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  213. @PlasticGangsta

    I would have thought that a real Anglo would have said….you’re welcome.

    • Replies: @Mike P
  214. Mike P says:

    Typos bug me two. Your my sole mate!

  215. @Talha

    I think your percentages are too low in all concerned. I often disagree with you – but you are right on this part. The racial and ethnic hatreds run deep… But it tends to be concentrated in one or two groups – which I dont need to name.

  216. @Talha


    If you had to go back you would mostly be inconvenienced because you wouldn’t be able to practice your favourite hobby: spreading Islam to the infidels. As doing that in a country in which everyone is a Muslim would be just so ridiculous. But OK there may be some Muslims there who are wavering in their faith and need a talking to, especially by someone who has lived in the West and can dispel any illusions they may have about it under the barrage of Western propaganda. Or try to dispel … But there’s the wife and kids to consider so maybe not a good idea just yet.

    • Replies: @Talha
  217. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    you would mostly be inconvenienced because you wouldn’t be able to practice your favourite hobby

    Nah, bro – selling the house, re-establishing a job, getting used to local rules/laws, and getting the kids adjusted would be the primary issues.

    spreading Islam to the infidels

    In the age of the internet, I can do that isolated on a mountain top in Peru as log as I have a connection. I have plenty of non-Muslims that follow and engage with me on Twitter and I wouldn’t see a reason not to continue posting here. Non-Muslims are coming to us; just last weekend, we had another convert at the mosque – this was through the efforts of another brother (who is also a convert). My wife just told me another convert sister joined the new-Muslim study circle that she teaches. The product sells itself, we just keep the shop open for whoever is interested.

    there may be some Muslims there who are wavering in their faith and need a talking to, especially by someone who has lived in the West and can dispel any illusions they may have about it under the barrage of Western propaganda.

    Yup – I’d definitely help out in ways that I could on that front.

    But there’s the wife and kids to consider so maybe not a good idea just yet.

    Well, I didn’t say I was gung-ho about it, but under the circumstances that the person described (shutting down mosques, halal meat, etc.) well, that would be reflective of a rather large sea-change in the public attitudes in the West. Why would I want to live in an openly hostile society when I had other options?


  218. @Just Passing Through

    13 billion per year???? Thats a pittance. How much do you think the British Empire bled the world of in todays money..??? Reverse that and imagine how low your per capita income would be if you never extracted so much wealth from the world to get rich in the 1st place.

    • Replies: @anon
  219. @AnonFromTN

    Indeed. And much of what counts as “news” are opinion pieces… Most of John Public have no clue what they are reading. That is why they feel threatened by comments sections.

  220. anon[106] • Disclaimer says:

    I agree with you.

    Also 40 trillions that what Britain extracted from India .

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  221. antibeast says:

    Technological parity? Not even close. Admiral Zheng Ho’s ships for example were three times larger than their Iberian counterparts. China’s cities were at least ten times larger than those in the Iberian peninsula still recovering from seven centuries of Islamic Moorish rule. Spain and Portugal were ruled by Catholic Kingdoms still mired in medieval feudalism while China had always been the largest and richest Empire in the East, as witnessed by Marco Polo himself. That’s why both Spain and Portugal preferred to have peaceful diplomatic and trade relations with China, which granted Macao the license to engage in foreign trade. This lasted throughout three centuries of the famed Spanish Galleon Trade which plied Chinese-made luxury goods for export to Europe via Acapulco in Mexico.

    The West only achieved technological parity with and later surpassed China AFTER the Industrial Revolution took off in England in the 1800s.

  222. @antibeast

    Admiral Zheng Ho’s ships for example were three times larger than their Iberian counterparts

    It’s not the size of your junk that counts, it’s what you do with it. China should have bought the Isle of Wight as a trade outpost and carried trade in their own junks and cut out the middle man. Then we could argue Europe was more advanced and didn’t colonize the world because of their superior ethics.

  223. Smith says:

    It’s not the size that matters but the technological sophistication.

    China castles are still large square right right up to the 1500-1600s, which is classical design and not as advanced as smaller round european castles (easier to defend also).

    China ships are big, but also slow and under-armed compared to western Spanish and Portugese ships, the fact the Portugese can cross half-the world and buy an island just off the China coast speak volumes about how China can maintain their territory at the time.

  224. @antibeast

    You are correct… But they won’t get it. They think the Chinese mindset is like theirs. China has never wanted to control to the ends of the earth. Their psyche is the opposite…

    • Replies: @Smith
  225. @anon

    Not to mention the sugar colonies in the Caribbean. Sugar was worth A LOT in those days.

  226. Smith says:

    Because their history of invading other Asian countries sure shows their lack of ambition.

    They wanted to dominate but they couldn’t expand due to presence of strong neighbors.

    • Troll: showmethereal
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