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He was a rich businessman, an outspoken outsider with a love of conspiracy theories. And he was a populist running for president.

In 1990, when Donald Trump was still beyond the furthest outskirts of American politics, Stanislaw Tyminski was trying to become the new president of post-communist Poland. He shared something else with the future Trump: nobody in the political elite took Tyminski seriously.

That was a mistake. He was the standard-bearer for a virulent right-wing populism that would one day take power in Poland and control the politics of the region. He would be the first in a long line of underestimated buffoons of the post-Cold War era who started us on a devolutionary path leading to Donald Trump. Tyminski’s major error: his political backwardness was a little ahead of its time.

In true Trumpian fashion, Stan Tyminski couldn’t have been a more unlikely politician. As a successful businessman in Canada, he had made millions. He proved luckless, however, in Canadian politics. His Libertarian Party never got more than 1% of the vote.

In 1990, he decided to return to his native Poland, then preparing for its first free presidential election since the 1920s. A relatively open parliamentary election in 1989, as the Warsaw Pact was beginning to unravel, had produced a solid victory for candidates backed by the independent trade union, Solidarity. Those former dissidents-turned-politicians had been governing for a year, with Solidarity intellectual and pioneering newspaper editor Tadeusz Mazowiecki as prime minister but former Communist general Wojciech Jaruzelski holding the presidency. Now, the general was finally stepping aside.

Running in addition to Mazowiecki was former trade union leader Lech Walesa, who had done more than any other Pole to take down the Communist government (and received a Nobel Prize for his efforts). Compared to such political giants, Tyminski was an unknown.

All three made promises. Walesa announced that he would provide every Pole with \$10,000 to invest in new capitalist enterprises. Mazowiecki swore he’d get the Rolling Stones to perform in Poland. Tyminski had the strangest pitch of all. He carried around a black briefcase inside which, he claimed, was secret information that would blow Polish politics to smithereens.

Tyminski managed to get a toehold in national politics because, by November 1990, many Poles were already fed up with the status quo Solidarity had ushered in. They’d suffered the early consequences of the “shock therapy” economic reforms that would soon be introduced across much of Eastern Europe and, after 1991, Russia. Although the Polish economy had finally stabilized, unemployment had, by the end of 1990, shot up from next to nothing to 6.5% and the country’s national income had fallen by more than 11%. Though some were doing well in the new business-friendly environment, the general standard of living had plummeted as part of Poland’s price for entering the global economy. The burden of that had fallen disproportionately on workers in sunset industries, small farmers, and pensioners.

Mazowiecki, the face of this new political order, would, like Hillary Clinton many years later, go down to ignominious defeat, while Tyminski surprised everyone by making it into the second round of voting. Garnering support from areas hard hit by the dislocations of economic reform, he squared off against the plainspoken, splenetic Walesa.

Tyminski did everything he could to paint his opponent as the consummate insider, a collaborator with the Communist secret police in his youth. “I have a lot of material and I have it here… and some of it is very serious and of a personal nature,” Tyminski told Walesa in a debate on national television, holding that briefcase of his close at hand. Walesa retaliated by accusing him of being a front man for the former communist secret police. Tyminski was forced to admit that his staff did include ex-secret policemen, but he never actually opened that briefcase. Walesa was resoundingly swept into the presidency by an electoral margin of three to one.

Stan Tyminski eventually took his wild conspiracy theories and populist pretensions back to Canada, a political has-been. And yet he was prescient in so many ways (including those charges against Walesa, who probably did collaborate briefly with the secret police). The liberal reforms that Eastern Europe implemented after the transformations of 1989 were supposed to be a one-way journey into a future as prosperous and boring as Scandinavia’s. Tyminski, on the other hand, had conjured up a very different, far grimmer future — unpredictable, angry, intolerant, paranoid — the very one that seems to have become our present.

Tyminski’s “children” now govern nearly every country in Eastern Europe, and the United States, too, is in the grip of a Tyminski-like leader. Perhaps these illiberal leaders have reached the peak of their influence — or have they? The opposite scenario is too dismal to contemplate: that the political climate has irreversibly changed and liberalism has irrevocably weakened in the U.S., in Eastern Europe, everywhere.

All (or at Least a Few) Aboard

Imagine the history of Eastern Europe after 1989 as a train leaving a decrepit station where tasty snacks and interesting reading material aren’t available, the public address system issues garbled announcements, the bathrooms are out of order, and the help desk unstaffed. As the final boarding chimes echo through the station, the passengers pile onto the train. A lucky few are in a first-class car with access to a surprisingly good cafe and plush sleeping compartments, a somewhat larger group in the reserved second-class seats, and everyone else crowded into totally rundown cars with appalling seats. The ultimate destination all of them have been told is a lovely terminal with well-provisioned stores, clean public restrooms, and a responsive administrative system in a city and country equally well run.

Think of this as the train of “transition.” Everyone on it seems convinced that they’re en route to a stunning market democracy in a post-Cold War world where political differences and ideological struggles have lost their relevance, where as American political theorist Francis Fukuyama famously put it in 1989, the “end of history” is in sight. “Today,” Fukuyama wrote a couple of years later, “we have trouble imagining a world that is radically better than our own, or a future that is not essentially democratic and capitalist.” Pragmatic decisions are all that’s left, and they’re to be chewed over by policymakers and implemented by bureaucrats.

If Eastern Europeans knew what they’d left behind and were fervent about where they were heading, they had little idea about the nature of the journey they were undertaking. German political scientist Ralf Dahrendorf tried to provide a few time stamps for such a transition: six months to create parties and political institutions, six years to establish the basis for a market economy, and 60 years to build a proper civil society. Except for some cranky members of the extreme right and a few Stalinist leftovers, everyone in the region seemed to back this liberal project, seeing it as a ticket into the larger European community.

For the first few years, the train of transition rolled along. There was grumbling in the back cars, but everyone was still on board with the overall plan to reach Western Europe or bust.

As it happened, the first-class passengers were easily transported to the heart of the sunny West. The second-class passengers barely made it across the border. And the rest didn’t get far beyond that original, disheveled station.

Mind the Gap

When I first traveled across Eastern Europe in 1990, the very year of the Polish presidential election, many of the people I interviewed expected to be living like Viennese or Londoners within five years, a decade at the most. If this was a delusion, it was one partially fueled by the outside advisers who flooded the region in 1990. Planners from the U.S. Agency for International Development, for example, put a five-year window on their assistance package.

And for some, the transition did last only a few years because cities like Warsaw in Poland quickly became high-priced locations for international corporate offices and NGOs. So the capital cities of Eastern Europe made the trip west, while smaller cities and towns and, above all, the countryside remained mired in the past. This urban-rural gap mirrored the one that still persists between Western Europe and Eastern Europe. In 1991, according to the World Bank’s figures, Hungary’s per capita gross domestic product was \$3,333, Austria’s \$22,356. By 2016, Hungary’s had risen to \$27,481, while Austria’s stood at \$48,004. In other words, though the gap had been narrowed considerably, as with other Eastern European countries — Poland (\$27,764), Romania (\$22,347), Bulgaria (\$20,326) — it had at best been cut in half.

“In 1965, West Germany was already the wealthiest and most productive country in Europe,” Adam Jagusiak, a former peace activist and Polish Foreign Ministry employee, told me in an interview in 2013. “It took them only 20 years. They produced more than France and Britain. They had their Wirtschaftswunder, their economic miracle. What’s most disappointing for most people, not just me, is that after 23 years we cannot close the gap… Poland would have to grow 10 percent annually to close the gap. That’s a neck-breaking pace, like Japan in the 1950s and 1960s or like South Korea in the 1970s. We grow maybe two or three percent.”

The liberal project succeeded in ushering virtually all of Eastern Europe into the European Union. But in the end, because of the persistent gap between expectations and reality, voters began to look around for something different.

Opportunism Knocks

Stan Tyminski ran for president before unemployment in Poland soared from 6.5% in 1990 to 20% by 2002. In Hungary, Viktor Orbán had far better timing.

Orbán was a young lawyer in Budapest in 1988 when he helped found a liberal party that you had to be under 35 to join. Fidesz, the Alliance of Young Democrats, won a commendable 21 seats in the 1990 elections, good enough for a sixth-place showing. Four years later, that country’s former Communist Party (renamed the Socialists) came out on top, while Fidesz dropped a couple spots. What disappointed Orbán far more, however, was the way the Alliance of Free Democrats — the “adult” version of Fidesz — opted to form a coalition government with the Socialists.

That was the moment when, having second thoughts about liberalism as a vehicle for his own personal ambitions, he began to transform both Fidesz, which dropped its under-35 requirement, and himself. When economic “reform” shocked Hungary as it had Poland, Orbán recast himself as an increasingly illiberal Hungarian nationalist and his once-liberal party became a pillar of the new right. In 2010, he became prime minister for the second time, a position he’s held for the last seven years.

In a remarkable number of ways Orbán anticipated Donald Trump. He reversed his country’s longstanding mistrust of Russia by openly courting its president, Vladimir Putin, and pledging to transform Hungarian politics along the lines of that country’s “illiberal state.” He railed against mainstream journalism, attempted to bend the judiciary (and the constitution) to his will, and rigged the state apparatus to benefit his supporters. In perhaps his most ominous twist, Orbán courted the Hungarian version of the alt-right with relentless anti-immigrant statements and the occasional anti-Semitic gesture.

The Polish right wing was so enamored of Orbán’s success that, in 2011, former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski announced that “the day will come when we will succeed and we will have Budapest in Warsaw.” Four years later, his Law and Justice Party took power on a mixed platform of populism and conspiracy theories reminiscent of Stan Tyminski’s.

Now, Donald Trump is constructing Budapest in Washington D.C., as he unwittingly follows Tyminski’s and Orbán’s trajectory. The reality TV star cultivated his status as an extreme outsider. During the Obama era, he identified a political opportunity on the right and, in September 2009, switched from the Democratic to the Republican Party. Seven years later, having combined outlandish conspiracy theories (think: birtherism) with an astute critique of liberal elites, he squeaked into power. He surely owes something to native (and nativist) traditions from Huey Long to Ross Perot, but he shares so much more with his compatriots across the Atlantic.

That transatlantic commonality begins with his canny exploitation of the gap between expectation and reality. The United States, like Eastern Europe, was going through its own “economic transition” in the 1990s. Millions of Americans expected the new economy — the global economy, the digital economy, the service economy, the sharing economy — to produce new jobs, better jobs. And it did generate enormous wealth, but mostly, as in Eastern Europe, for a narrow, highly urbanized slice of the population. Income inequality has increased so dramatically that the American world now resembles the nineteenth-century Gilded Age.

In the eras of Presidents Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson, the liberal project meant government intervention in the economy on behalf of working Americans and the disadvantaged. By the time Bill Clinton took the White House in 1993, the focus of the “new” Democrats was already shifting to global free-trade deals that would only accelerate the country’s loss of manufacturing jobs and a harsh vision of social spending represented most starkly by Clinton’s grim version of welfare reform. Meanwhile, the increasing coziness of the “new” Democratic Party and Wall Street would lead to significant financial deregulation that, in turn, would produce an economic meltdown in 2007-2008.

Although Barack Obama would prove progressive on some issues, he would also embrace Clintonesque positions on trade, social welfare, and Wall Street. As in Eastern Europe, such a liberal project would leave many people behind. So no one should have been surprised that these disappointed voters would eventually seek their revenge at the polls, as traditional Democrats in working-class neighborhoods began to vote Republican.

Aided by “dark money” and his dark mutterings about migrants, Mexicans, and Muslims, Trump rode a wave of Eastern European-style disenchantment to the Oval Office. Now, he’s taking his revenge not just against the neoliberalism of the Clinton and Obama years, but the entire twentieth-century liberal understanding of the state.

Conservative anti-tax advocate Grover Norquist once remarked that his dream was not “to abolish government” but “to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.” The question today in both Eastern Europe and the U.S. is: Have Trump, Orbán, and others shrunk liberalism to such a degree that they can now drown it in that bathtub?

The Future of Liberalism

Those wielding political metaphors love the idea of oscillation. You know, the pendulum swinging back and forth, the tide ebbing and flowing, voters opting for one political flavor and then, surfeited, returning to what they once rejected.

So far, voters in Eastern Europe haven’t shown any signs of wanting to return to the liberal politics that had delivered their countries to the promised land of European Union (EU) membership. In Hungary, Fidesz continues to lead the polls as the 2018 elections approach. The right-wing Law and Justice Party in Poland has only increased its popularity since it captured the state in elections two years ago.

Indeed, the rest of the region is following their lead. In October, the party of billionaire right-wing businessman Andrej Babiš captured the most votes in the Czech elections. Boyko Borisov, a populist with an authoritarian bent, has returned to power in Bulgaria, while nationalists are back in charge in Croatia. The anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim leader of Slovakia, Robert Fico, has been prime minister for nine of the last 11 years. (Though governing from the social-democratic left, Fico has exhibited distinctly authoritarian tendencies.) These leaders have different political philosophies and operate in different cultural contexts, but they all share one thing: an aversion to the liberal project.

Further out on the fringes, the Eastern European alt-right flourishes. This year, neo-Nazis flew the American flag in a February march in Croatia’s capital Zagreb to celebrate Donald Trump; 60,000 far-right nationalists gathered for Poland’s annual independence day in November; and Hungary has become a virtual mecca for extremists. As right-wing authoritarians gain mainstream appeal, those further to the right are courting greater visibility.

In Europe, there is still a counterweight to this rejection of the liberal project: the European Union. It has, for instance, strongly censured the Polish and Hungarian governments for their illiberal policies, and it still carries real weight. Unless the EU manages to transform its economic policies in a way that stops favoring rich countries and wealthy individuals, however, it’s likely to prove incapable of stemming the tide of reaction. New French President Emmanuel Macron has offered some interesting proposals — from an EU-wide financial transactions tax to the taxation of digital companies — that might temper some of the galloping greed. But such EU reforms won’t boost the fortunes of liberalism in Eastern Europe unless that organization begins to address the persistent divide between the two parts of the continent and (as in the United States) between thriving metropolitan centers and those left behind in more rural areas.

In America, Donald Trump remains a deeply unpopular president. Widespread political resistance to his administration and the Republican Congress has already claimed some early victories. But thanks to the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision in 2010, rich, right-wing, anti-liberal individuals and foundations have had an outsized impact on politics. Buoyed by the support of the Koch brothers and others, the Trump administration will do everything possible over the next three years to bankrupt the economy through tax “reform,” pack the courts with anti-liberal judges, shed federal personnel, gut federal regulations, and otherwise ensure that the government it hands to its successor will be as close to drowned as possible.

When it comes to this version of “populism,” Eastern Europe led the way. The question now is: Will it again? If anti-Trump forces here don’t address persistent voter disgust with the status quo, the Eastern European example offers a grim glimpse of a possible American future as right-wing libertarians, intolerant nationalists, and alt-right extremists secure their lock on the policy apparatus.

Waiting for the “inevitable” pendulum swing of politics is like waiting for Godot. The political scene will not regain equilibrium by itself. In Eastern Europe, as in the United States, the opposition has to jettison those elements of the liberal project that have proven self-defeating — the economics of inequality and the politics of collusion with the powerful — and offer a genuine antidote to right-wing populists. If not, you might as well slap a do-not-resuscitate order on liberalism, kiss social welfare goodbye, and brace yourself for a very mean season ahead.

John Feffer, a TomDispatch regular, is the author of the dystopian novel Splinterlands (a Dispatch Books original) and the director of Foreign Policy In Focus at the Institute for Policy Studies. His new book, Aftershock: A Journey into Eastern Europe’s Broken Dreams (Zed Books), has just been published.

(Republished from TomDispatch by permission of author or representative)
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  1. szopen says:

    “New French President Emmanuel Macron has offered some interesting proposals —”

    Yeah, for example proposals which would cut the wings of our transport companies. As usual, whenever european companies enter our markets, all is allright, but when our companies start to be too successful, there comes another Macron with his proposals to fix that unbearable situation.

  2. “60,000 far-right nationalists gathered for Poland’s annual independence day in November” what a pile of bull. In that crowd there were at most 1000 far-right people, unless you think that the average pole taking part in a public celebration of his country is a far-right nationalist.
    Many east-europeans worked in Western Europe, lived in the poorest neighbourhoods and witnessed first hand what immigration from Africa and the Middle East brings.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @anon
    , @jacques sheete
  3. Issac says:

    “So far, voters in Eastern Europe haven’t shown any signs of wanting to return to the liberal politics that had delivered their countries to the promised land of European Union (EU) membership.”

    One has to admire their good sense, given the rest of the EU has made clear their goal of demographically obliterating the people of their own nations. To the point where the French left is seriously considering the partition of their nation into a French and Islamic dichotomy. What sort of inhumane animal, Mr. Feffer, would consider this a triviality? You have declared war on the people of Europe. If any justice exists, these Europeans will destroy you and your ideology before you destroy them.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Wally
  4. Brabantian says: • Website

    This is a superb article, quite on-target … Eastern Europe is a very special, separate world, forging its own way … on track to become the last redoubt of European culture, joined perhaps by parts of the USA after that breaks into pieces.

    Interesting to note that one of the Visegrád countries mentioned above, Czechia, is the biggest economic success story in all of Europe recently, with virtually zero unemployment … and yet the Czechs as well have zero temptation to join the neo-liberal, George Soros, invite-in-the-migrants programme, seeing what is happening next door in Germany, and hearing from Germans themselves coming over the border into Czechia with stories to tell.

    People are streaming into Prague & environs from other parts of Europe, given that if you know English or German, you can often instantly get a job there. This includes ‘diversity’ refugees from places like Sweden, who had good jobs there but grew sick of what has been happening in Sweden’s urban landscapes.

    • Replies: @gustafus
  5. Cyrano says:
    @Pseudonymic Handle

    the average pole taking part in a public celebration

    The average Pole was there to practice some pole dancing – in case their day jobs didn’t work out – so they can start new careers in strip clubs.

    • Replies: @Anon
  6. Jason Liu says:

    Why does Unz keep publishing the pseudointellectuals from TomDispatch? This guy goes on for an entire article without even explaining why liberalism is desirable.

  7. @Jason Liu

    It’s a great question, isn’t it. Strangely, very few are asking it.

    The charitable interpretation is that it exposes the sort of leftist dissenters who’d read pieces like this to dissident rightwing views (IQ, heredity, racial realism etc), by featuring them on the same site.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @anonymous
    , @Thirdeye
  8. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Pseudonymic Handle

    Many east-europeans worked in Western Europe, lived in the poorest neighbourhoods and witnessed first hand what immigration from Africa and the Middle East brings.”
    Many rural visitors to London and Liverpool saw what these Poles and East Europeans had brought to English culture ,housing market,rental market and job markets and they didn’t like it .

    • Replies: @DNC
    , @Miro23
  9. The liberal project succeeded in ushering virtually all of Eastern Europe into the European Union. But in the end, because of the persistent gap between expectations and reality, voters began to look around for something different.

    The fact is Poland managed the transition from communism to markets better than any other country in Eastern Europe. Its recession was the briefest and shallowest and it surpassed communist-era production levels sooner than anyone else. And if this has still left expectations unmet, then the gap was certainly not going to be narrowed any further by more economic leftism – that goes without saying (duh).

    For Feffer, it may be true that Poland more successfully managed its transition than anyone else in Eastern Europe, but it failed to achieve Japan-like growth rates, therefore it sucks. That’s about the level of economic reasoning one can expect from a leftie.

    But I think the economics argument is just a ruse. We can test this by asking whether Feffer would have had as much reason to find fault with Poland if, after communism, Poland had immediately decided to flood itself with third world immigrants and set itself on a France-like course towards Islamification and negrification. It’s easy to see the Feffers praising Poland then, isn’t it. In that case, no matter how deficient Poland’s economic performance, the Feffers could never bring themselves to seriously condemn Poland – not in anything like the terms they do today.

  10. Dan Hayes says:


    I have a different take on it.

    Ron presents to his readers (the vast majority whom are dissident-right denizens) the opportunity to hear from some of the dissident left.

    This prevents the UR from being just an echo chamber. Only listening to dissident-right crime thoughts are satisfying for a while, but the absence of any counter-views ultimately proves sterile and self-defeating!

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @silviosilver
  11. Alfa158 says:

    I think exposure to these articles is also a morale booster and eye opener for the dissident right. They display the blinkered, narrow thinking and the goals of the left. Their ideology has been become so fossilized by decades of cultural dominance that they can no longer even see any facts that don’t fit that ideology. Mr. Feffer is baffled that anyone would object to having their society exterminated and replaced by a version of Brazil so he labels them bigots. He pins the Koch Brothers to Trump, having never noticed that the Koch brothers were leaders of the Never-Trumpers. Hungary’s individual income went from 1/7 of Austria’s to more than 1/2, but he spins it as the gap having been “cut in half”.
    You see here the baffled fury of the Left. Their institutions are fighting on behalf of the system of global capitalism which is now called “liberalism”, while the Right has taken up the flag of populism, and they can’t make sense of what the hell has gone wrong.

    • Replies: @szopen
  12. The article is naturally Hodge-podge.
    Concerning these countries, they do have certain advantages.
    The progress, economical, social, is slow but steady.
    The population is very monolithic. These counties do not like foreigners, except maybe Germans.
    The languages are extremely difficult to learn, and for Muslims to learn the language would take several lifetimes. So they do not want Muslims there.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  13. “In 1965, West Germany was already the wealthiest and most productive country in Europe,” Adam Jagusiak, a former peace activist and Polish Foreign Ministry employee, told me in an interview in 2013. “It took them only 20 years. They produced more than France and Britain. They had their Wirtschaftswunder, their economic miracle.

    This makes me laugh.
    One cannot compare Germany to the backward agrarian E European countries.

    Already in 1946 Volkswagen, the Beetle, production, was resumed.
    Do not know when Mercedeses were produced again, but a relative of mine had a 1947 produced model, a pre war model, but it was car, and relatively modern, Autobahnfest, this means it could be driven at top speed without any problem for hours.
    And it had independent rear suspension, all British cars still had the dangerous rigid rear axles.
    British cars at the time were destroyed by driving them at top speed, long stroke engines
    When the first British four lane highway was available it was a slaughter house for British cars just after being opened

    Though a lot of Germany was destroyed, to a large extent it was ‘just’ densely populated cities.
    Industries were hit, but many were not severely destroyed.
    And maybe the destruction of the medieval city centres was a blessing in disguise, modern city centres could be constructed

    Most important, German brains still existed.
    One sees this in Germans producing buttons in Tsjechoslovakia, the Tsjech discrimination was such that they went away, taking their knowledge with them, began producing again in S Germany.

    As present German industrialists say ‘ we export IQ’.
    Already in WWI, yes, one, Germans began thinking about jet engines.
    At the end of WWII German jet fighters flew at 900kmh, Spifires at most some 750kmh.
    But aviation fuel was lacking, so hundreds of them could not be used, from the end of 1944 the synthetic plants of Auschwitz could be bombed from N Italy.
    Auschwitz had coal and water.
    Elie Wiesel worked in a warehouse where electric parts for the industries were stored, see his first book

    The USA was able to wage WWII because of a German method of producing synthetic rubber.


    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @Wally
  14. What a tired, conventional analysis. The author dances on the wave-tops, completely disregarding the deeper role of the globalist, international banking cartel and their current front and lever of choice, the Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  15. The use of the word illiberal almost seems like a job application to the [email protected]/Tufts. One Kelley Greenhill(previous asst @ State to Heinzkerri) produced a slanted HOW TO on forced migration,titled WEAPONS OF MASS MIGRATION(Cornell press2011) just in time for the Arab Spring. Orban fucked the Swiss Internationals, by converting Swiss denominated loans to Forint(Hungarian currency), one day Orban hopefully will give a SOROS on the Couch type testimonial, and more will be revealed.

  16. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And vice versa?

    I agree that most of the TomDispatch material is painfully naive about the rotten Establishment. Do these journalists not drive a Prius, with radio permanently tuned to NPR? Bravely opposed to President Cheney, with nothing but excuses for the same warmongering and corruption under Obama. Not reliable enough messengers to write for the Washington Post and its ilk, but tools nevertheless.

    But this site also publishes stuff from other types, such as Derbyshire, Mercer, and Weissberg, that’s far below the level of, e.g., Dinh, Giraldi, Paul, and Sailer. As well as two relatively mainstream “conservatives,” Buchanan and especially of late Napolitano, whose service to the Establishment is revealed by the contrast.

    Other readers would have their own examples, or even reverse mine. (I’m a sucker for erudition, and vulnerable to confirmation bias like everyone else.) Broadening yours, my point is that the breadth and contrast — including qualitative — of TUR’s contributors may be valuable. And if nothing else, wonderful grist for comments!

  17. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Call it the new ‘Pale of the Settlement’ where Juden once hid out, after they had gotten run out of various counties and states in Europe for manipulations of the Gentiles AKA GOYIM.

    Only this Pale–Poland and Hungry–is for what Commie US college professors call a social construct, RACE and its where the White race will need to hide to survive the George Soros onslaught of tens and tens of millions of Sub-Saharan Africans–into Europe–who have no skills, no job training, little education, low IQ, different skin color and religion are being herded to destroy the White Race by assimilation. And if Sweden is any example, also like to rape good looking White blonds.

    Such is the gift brought on by our Jewish Overlords, who are keeping silent about Israel paying African states like Uganda to accept the black African Jews living in Israel, since Israelis don’t want to pollute their blood lines with negroid DNA. Until that time, many are being held in Israeli concentration camps…but Shhh! don’t talk about that, why that’s anti-Semitic.

    But us White folks are the enemy and as such, will be exterminated.

  18. szopen says:

    Hungary’s individual income went from 1/7 of Austria’s to more than 1/2, but he spins it as the gap having been “cut in half”.


    Its recession was the briefest and shallowest and it surpassed communist-era production levels sooner than anyone else. And if this has still left expectations unmet, then the gap was certainly not going to be narrowed any further

    But this is about the social expectations and social mood in Poland. And, quite frankly, it’s reported quite nicely. I am Polish, and I know people got tired of hearing “why do you complain, just look – 30 years ago we were so poor!”. They got tired of hearing that yeah, it’s true they cannot afford meat for every meal, it’s true hundreds of thousands of children live beyond the poverty rate and go hungry, it’s true their whole life savings vanished in the 90s while bunch of cronies got rich, it’s true foreign companies bought factories in their town only to close the factories, sell the land and the equipment … but HEY, in Warsaw we have same level of life as in Vienna!

    It’s not about the facts, but about the people’s sentiment and they are captured quite nicely.

    My wife’s family is from small village, I came from small town, while I live in large (for Poland) city, and I interact daily with people from all social classes, so yeah, I know the people who laugh hearing complaints about hungry children, and the very next day I talk to a women who is happy, because she got chicken’s leg half price in Biedronka.

    The common sentiment is that good is not enough anymore. Things which would leave my parents jaws-dropped 30 years ago are taken as given and people want more.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  19. Conatus says:

    In Budapest they spend 3/4s of their income on housing. Why is that?
    Neo-colonial control of their economy by wealthy EU companies who came into Hungary in the early 90s when Hungary had been newly been freed from the yoke of communism(like the Mongol-Tartar yoke in Russia) and the EU companies used use the low-wage, low-tax environment to make money and a lot of the profits go back home to Germany or France or Britain. Hungarians are better off but Budapest is no Vienna.
    Will Victor Orban(and his people) be able to hold out against this economic pressure? I hope so.
    But that is the 64 thousand dollar question?(I am dating myself)(it used to be a quiz show in the US)
    Are you willing to give up some electronic distraction gadgets and maybe some of your house to live in a homogeneous society?

  20. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Maybe they were doing double acts with Moscow girls.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  21. DNC says:

    Those dastardly Poles, tarnishing Liverpool’s chav culture with their mere presence!

  22. What’s the Matter with Eastern Europe?

    Too many Ashkenutzkis?

  23. Miro23 says:

    Many rural visitors to London and Liverpool saw what these Poles and East Europeans had brought to English culture, housing market, rental market and job markets and they didn’t like it .

    Unless they were employers who were happy to find reliable workers for their rubbish low paid jobs.

    “Kent apple farmers say loss of seasonal eastern European pickers will raise prices and bring industry to its knees.”

  24. I like this guy. Reading him makes me feel like that joke about the jew who reads nazi magazines.

    First we take Krakow, then we take the world.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  25. @Pseudonymic Handle

    Many east-europeans worked in Western Europe, lived in the poorest neighbourhoods and witnessed first hand what immigration from Africa and the Middle East brings.

    Back in the early part of the 20th century, many Americans were none too happy with many of the immigrants from Eastern Europe, and it appears that time has proven their concerns valid, or maybe even timid.

    The Eastern European mafiosi overwhelmed America back then and we are witnessing their iron-fisted rule today, whether one hails from a trailer park or Trump’s Manhattan. Lest anyone doubt it, just recall, if you can stand it, the smug smirk on Netanyahu’s face.

    I’d much rather deal with any other bunch of immigrants than those hard bitten, crackpot, sadistic and thoroughly degenerate thugs.

    • Agree: Druid
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  26. @Jason Liu

    This guy goes on for an entire article without even explaining why liberalism is desirable.

    Well, why does it need to be explained?

    It was desirable until, like capitalism, it was warped grotesquely by the usual suspects into the degenerate LINO we have today.

    America was supposedly founded on liberal ideals. Ideals of liberal capitalism to be more precise, and I find it amusing that nowadays “capitalists” condemn liberalism.

    A broch!!

  27. Joe Hide says:

    FIRST … I’ve learned to stop reading when authors from the start use inflammatory name calling and labeling. Examples in this article include “virulent right wing”, “buffoons”, “a love of conspiracy theories”, etc.
    SECOND … Want to become a speed reader in 1 minute? Then listen up. Scan the title and 1st 100 words or so. If they involve excessive emotional & angry name calling and labeling, quit it and go to the next article.
    Doing this means you’ve gotten all you you can from, say, the above 3500 word article in one minute. You are now reading at 3500 words per minute! An added benefit is that your mind isn’t carrying more mis-information and dis-information that makes it function poorly. Good luck, you can now be more intelligent!

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  28. Cyrano says:

    They are neither good looking enough nor do they have money to do “acts” with Moscow girls, rather their own Polish girls are doing some “acts” in Western Europe.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Anon
  29. @szopen

    People want more.
    Alas money trees do not exist, St Nicholas and Black Pete are fairy tales, just as father Chrismas.
    One of my great grandfathers was an illiterate peat worker, in 1880, they went on strike, another had been a wealthy farmer but went bankrupt in 1890.
    Both wanted more.

    The illiterate peat worker poached, just for food, and became literate in jail, he somehow became a cattle and pig dealer, had a farm built in 1913.
    The bust farmer began growing vegetables, he made enough money to have a reasonable life.
    Just wanting more, a better life, is just for immigrants who are welcomed by Merkel, get asylum, and cost the taxpayer some E 33.000 a year.
    All others must find ways to get more.

    One reason Britain leaves the EU is that British taxpayers are fed up with paying for others, many in GB want more, such as elderly who cannot afford heating in winter.
    Or German elderly, who are unable to pay the rent, are forced to live in house trailers, and look into garbage bins for still usable food.
    Even in the Netherlands free food is distributed to those with the lowest incomes.
    One child in nine, recent survey, grows up in poverty, with us.

    In my opinion poverty is unnecessary in the Netherlands and Germany, EU policies cause poverty, by lowering consistently incomes for those who do not find a job.
    Mark Rutte is of the opinion that the less money they get, the more they are motivated to go to work.

    He ignores efforts in big cities, for example Amsterdam, where anyone on welfare, hope I remember correctly, was obliged to present him- or herself, in rented circus tents, brought there by special free buses, to judge their capacity for work.
    Some 30.000 had to appear, also from memory
    It cost millions, as far as I remember one or two could be placed in jobs.
    More and more people are unable to work in our complex societies, in ‘the good old days’ people were hired for simple jobs, house maid, gardener, etc.
    Unions do not want to see this, but a minimum wage causes unemployment.
    This is the dilemma, maybe with lowering wages some people can find jobs, but at an income we consider below the poverty line.

    • Replies: @szopen
    , @RadicalCenter
  30. szopen says:
    @jilles dykstra

    You do not understand. I do not say that what people think is correct. I am saying that when author reported what people think, he is reported correctly.

    Moreover, I’d argue taht some of the sentiment is correct. There was a constant propaganda that we will be all soon in a promised land, you just need to give up your privileges for the good of everyone else, you have to suffer but then all will be ok – but usually people who did the most of suffering were not the ones who reap the most of the benefits. It’s quite enraging when you see that people who lecture you that you are so … hmm i’m even lacking en english word for “roszczeniowy”. Anyways, they lecture you, and then you find out they are children of nomenclature, lived comfortable lives and complain whenever the hard times dare to hit THEM instead of those backward catholic rednecks who should die out already. Sure, you must shut up and work hard, because capitalism is good; but if new government decides to cut support for my newspaper – OMIGOD this is fascism and attack on a free press!!

    • Agree: iffen
  31. The interesting thing is that nobody in Eastern Europe is proposing to leave the EU and, indeed, Mr Feffer doesn’t even invisage that hypothesis. The reason is very simple: the choice for all those countries is between the EU and Putin’s tanks. Obama’s (and now, Trump’s) failure to stand up to Putin in Ukraine has made the US an unreliable ally and that has been aggravated by Trump’s remarks about NATO and questions as to his links to Putin. As in Catalonia, several US anti-EU scams have cut accross each other in Eastern Europe and nullified each other, leaving the EU as the only game in town. In addition, Britain was the American trojan horse within the EU. Most of the neo-liberal policies the EU adopted were concessions made to Britain just to keep it on board. Now that Britain has jumped ship, there’s no need to continue policies that, in practice, next to nobody in the EU ever really wanted. Even if Britain finnlly remains in the EU, its power of blackmail has been destroyed. Look therefore for a return to the original “fortress Europe” concept. Here again, the American anti-EU faction have shot themselves in the foot!

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  32. @Dan Hayes

    Ron presents to his readers (the vast majority whom are dissident-right denizens) the opportunity to hear from some of the dissident left.

    I don’t buy that. Dissident left views are hardly proscribed in contemporary society. There’s nothing written by the leftist authors featured on this site that I couldn’t find in a thousand other outlets. There’s just no need to “expose” us to views that already feature prominently in mainstream political discourse. (Well, okay, I’ll grant you won’t come across crackpots like “Godfree Roberts” too often on CNN.)

    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
  33. padre says:

    Why do you insist on teh rerm “free election”, when it shouldhavebeen “paydf or election”?

  34. …has made the US an unreliable ally…

    Stick around a bit; they have a record of flip-flopping on a whim.

    E.g., Japan was an ally during WW1 then an adversary in WW2, due to no real fault with the Japanese except that they were gaining some self sufficiency and independence. After being crushed, the US and Japan have been the sweetest of pals for a while.

    Germany, too, was held in high esteem until they got united and started advancing. Then they became “competition” and needed to be taken down a peg , so they were. They were kinda cool for a while, (as long as the bankers could loan ’em munny), then started being competition again and that meant they were now devils. The devils got their horns polled good’n proper, so now the two are the besta pals agi’n. At least for a while.

    Anyway, back to Russia. I believe Russia was the first country to recognize the US way back when and the Czar supported Lincoln’s war against the South so they stayed Sweeties for a while even though a US banker (Jacob Schiff) funded Japan to show them Russkies a thing er two. Then the Bolshie Rev came and the US helped fight them and was on the losing side so the now USSR was a hated Red monster until FDR snuggled up to Oncle Joey, even recognizing the USSR officially, in 1933, right after Joey starved 7-10 million Ukrainians, which isn’t an official holocaust but was one anyway. Still, Franky loved Joey until…

    Joey got frisky and embraced Mr Hitler and even helped him build up his country, in contravention of the “Vair-sails” (‘Merkin pronunciation) Screwing, I mean Treatment, err, Tweetie, including the military. This, for some unknown reason (could it be munny?), didn’t last long and FDR was back in the Big Bear’s arms. Wait. I mean FDR’s banking budaroos supplied Joey with arms and cash and I don’t want to know what else, maybe flowers ‘n chocklit and it was hot romance time again.

    After the Big One, Oncle J got the Cold Shoulder, and on and on, and most people know the rest, or at least the court historian’s version of it.

    So, nothing’s permanent and there’s no friendship between nations, only a constant screwing with one another other where the Big Three or Four do what they will, and the little guys have no choice but(t) to bend over.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  35. @Michael Kenny

    The choice for E European countries is between selling their identity and culture to Brussels, or being excluded from the common market, and losing EU subsidies
    Putin knows very well that occupying the E European countries just costs lots of money money.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  36. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Whether Muslims could learn Slavic languages in a reasonable period of time, is utterly missing the point.

    Even if every single Muslim settling in Poland spoke fluent Polish, their mass settlement ultimately would still result in the destruction of Polish culture, tradition, faith, mores, social cohesion, trust, and liberty.

    The notion of our children living under Islam is horrific no matter what language they are speaking.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  37. @Lars Porsena

    First question: are you playing off the song by the wildly overrated, droning, atonal “singer” Leonard Cohen?

    Second question: was Cohen merely being honest when he droned “First, we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin”? On that score, a Jewish friend of mine is rather obviously enjoying Schadenfreude at the rapidly worsening plight of the Germans. Yes, he cannot convincingly hide his pleasure — or at the very least utter lack of compassion and empathy — over the rapes and assaults and fear they are suffering; why am I surprised? (Yeah, I know, find new friends….)

  38. @jacques sheete

    You appear to be conflating Jewish people with Slavic people, and I cannot fathom why.

    The culture, “Values”, and loyalties of most Jews in any country are quite different from those of normal Slavic people in Poland or elsewhere.

    And as you should know, millions of Ashkenazi Jews (“European Jews”) are genetically Italian and/or German, as much as (or more so) than they are Slavic.

    As for the Middle Eastern (Sephardic) Jews, they are typically not genetically or culturally Slavic at all.

    I wish ill on nobody, but I’d gladly take twenty million white Christian Slavic immigrants to the USA than even a quarter of that number from a more hostile, less compatible culture or mindset such as Judaism or Islam.

  39. @Joe Hide

    FIRST … I’ve learned to stop reading when authors from the start use inflammatory name calling and labeling.

    Yup, of all smears, “anti-Semite” is by far my favorite. Tells me all I need to know. Also, whenever someone starts yapping negatively about Hitler, or Goebbels, or Nazis, it’s time to start laughing and proceeding no further.

    There are many more red flags including pontificating on the benefits the holy Constitution and/ or democracy and freedom, most of whom don’t even know what any of those things have meant in practice

    • Replies: @Wally
  40. @jilles dykstra

    How about Germany, Netherlands, France, Sweden, Italy, etc., deport their Muslims and Africans? Then they could stop spending money to feed, clothe, house, “educate”, surveil, prosecute, and incarcerate such a disproportionately high share of those populations?

    That would free up a large amount of money to provide a guaranteed minimum income, healthcare, and other services to the native white people of those lands, without raising taxes or borrowing.

    Then again, don’t we have a very similar problem with another demographic group here in the USA? What are we doing about it? Well, some of us are peacefully trying to change the “laws” towards that end, but clearly without success so far.

  41. @jilles dykstra

    Yes. Put even more starkly, the choice for Central and Eastern Europeans is between remaining in the EU and becoming subjugated and swallowed up in a teeming, violent, filthy, hostile Islamic mass, or leaving the EU.

    What the Eastern European countries should do upon leaving the EU is of course up to them, and it’s hard to say. Wouldn’t Russia gladly offer favorable trade and energy agreements to Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Austria, and the like if doing so (1) boosted business for Russian firms, thereby increasing Russian employment and tax revenue & helping some of the Russian people raise their standard of living, and (2) increased Russia’s prestige, economic leverage, and cultural influence in that region?

    Certainly it seems like Putin would be practical and forward-thinking enough to offer such agreements.

    A choice between sharia, poverty, and constant violence and intimidation (the rapidly Islamifying EU) and independence should be a no-brainer. With each passing year, the violence, tax burden, fear, and chaos in Germany & France & the other suicidal ex-Christian countries of Europe, should make that clearer.

  42. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jason Liu

    Great questions. Both of them. Anyone who’s using “populist” as a badge of shame is way out of touch and stuck on…

    …a decrepit station where tasty snacks and interesting reading material aren’t available, the public address system issues garbled announcements, the bathrooms are out of order, and the help desk unstaffed.

  43. szopen says:

    Leaving EU is not so simple. Right now POlish economy is deeply tied to the EU. Germany 20-30% of import/export, and about 20% other main EU partners (6% France). Before BRexit it was even more unbalanced (UK is about 7% of Polish export!)

    Russia gets 4-5% of Polish export, less than France.

    • Replies: @polskijoe
  44. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Certainly it seems like Putin would be practical and forward-thinking enough to offer such agreements.

    Only if the Russians call the shots. At the end of the day, the problem is unsolvable because Russians tend to believe that they ought to be the leaders and masters of all Slavic people. Eastern Europeans have no reason to agree to this; no one wants to submit, especially to a nation that has a lower GDP/capita and has a tendency to lobby imaginative, colorful and virulent contempt at them.

    After a few “Polish are all whores” statements, you’ll be surprised if few Polish want to be aligned to the Russian sphere.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    , @peterAUS
    , @polskijoe
    , @Wally
  45. John Feffer the propaganda minister of United World Ministries. Changing the mindset one blog at a time. So many blogs so little time. Promising the people a new economic utopia if only Eastern Europe lets in more middle easterners and Africans. Maybe he can see what Africanization looks like by visiting various US ghetto cities for a first hand look. He uses a lot of fancy words but one can easily tell what a con artist he really is.

    • Replies: @gustafus
    , @Anonymous
  46. Alas money trees do not exist…

    Well then, how does Israel manage to keep plucking ‘Merkin fruit? Easy pickins, too. 😉

  47. @RadicalCenter

    You appear to be conflating Jewish people with Slavic people


    And I cannot fathom why. I meant to refer to the Ashke-nasties from that part of the world.

    This is exactly what I meant to convey, only differently.

    I wish ill on nobody, but I’d gladly take twenty million white Christian Slavic immigrants to the USA than even a quarter of that number from a more hostile, less compatible culture or mindset such as Judaism…


  48. WHAT says:

    Surely you can provide some citations from “all the russians” who say that they want to rule all the slavs everywhere alltiem everytiem then. Protip: century-old writings of panslavists from various countries demanding Russia to provide cover for all the slavs is not it.

    Anyway, the real problem is, Eastern Europe, this eternal middleman sitting on the gaspipe and enraging both Russia and Germany, has nothing to present to Putin economy-wise. He has his own plumbers and doesn`t know where to put his own apples.

    • Replies: @szopen
  49. @RadicalCenter

    Put even more starkly, the choice for Central and Eastern Europeans is between remaining in the EU and becoming subjugated and swallowed up in a teeming, violent, filthy, hostile Islamic mass, or leaving the EU.

    Put even more starkly yet, the choice for Central and Eastern Europeans is between remaining in the EU and becoming subjugated and swallowed up by violent, filthy, hostile, sadistic international bankers, or leaving the EU and getting the same treatment.

    It’s the same “choice” for Western Europeans too, and essentially the same for Africans and Asians and everyone else. They call it globalization, which, of course sucks for the vast majority of us.

    It’s the same “choice” Germany faced before getting forced back into the fold as a result of the wars.

    The EU is a protection racket as is the US government. Either pay up or you’ll soon see the need for “protection”

  50. @RadicalCenter

    In most of my comments I am trying to put a touch of humor, that I do admit that it is difficult to catch.
    But I do love it if it provokes a an correction.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  51. szopen says:

    You seem not to know the structure of, for example, Polish export. Agricultural products are in the third place (with more than 5000mlneuros in 2014). The industrial and chemical products (in total more 20000 milions euros in 2014) are in the first place. In that, car industry is rapidly increasing the export. In fact, Poland almost always was exporting mainly industrial items; the problem is, they often get exported to Germany, where they are relabelled and sold as German prdocuts to the rest of the world. Huge percentage of cars in Europe was produced in part or in total in Poland.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    , @Wally
  52. i can’t stop laughing at the rage and terror of the left as we start to burn their entire project on the ash-heap of history.

    This guy is desperately hoping the new illiberal right will hawk Koch brother’s style libertarianism, so his crew of nation wreckers can wheedle their way back in through promising restraints on capital. Oops. The sort of anti-liberal right you find in Eastern Europe is probably economically left in the American context. You might even call it ‘national socialism.’

    Leftists continue to believe that the distribution of resources is the primary or exclusive vector of politics in society. They’re wrong. There are prior formations. Race, culture, ethnicity, religion. That’s what makes us human, and that’s what the left wants to destroy at the level of praxis. Fukuyama argued liberal democracy was the end of history because it recognized through its discourse of ‘human rights’ (a spook lol) the dignity of the individual. But this destroys the context in which individuals realize themselves, and the possibility of profound and transcendent meaning. Liberalism produces a society of individuals who eventually can’t recognize themselves as living in accordance with their natures. That’s when things get fashy.

  53. gustafus says:

    Germans are also streaming into Hungary – buying up lake front property all around Lake Balaton. I spoke with many angry Germans who love their new country.

    I spent weeks there last autumn and it was illuminated. The author “complains” of Trump installing Budapest in DC…. if ONLY he could. !!!

    You’d have to ship out the darkie detritus first however… Budapest is the new Paris.

    Leafy streets and bistros – clean, prosperous, and SAFE.

    The streets of Budapest look like Cherry Creek Denver – blonde pony tails, cargo shorts, University baseball caps and T’s.

    NO MORE GYPSIES… they left for higher welfare checks. So Budapest is ROMA FREE – the absolute best demographic housecleaning in Eastern Europe.

    If Poland can stay the course – Eastern Europe will become the last bastion of White Western Civilization. OMG – Paris is now a sewer

  54. gustafus says:

    I bet a look into Feffer’s personal life will give you the answer to his cultural self loathing.

    Gay with Orthodox Parents? Or just typical leftist Secular Jew who hates all things White, Christian and American. Prosperous but absent paternity? — classic for this demographic.

    I would bet the farm on either of the above but there are variations on this theme across the blizzard of snowflakes coming out of Academia.

    AGAIN … who cares? These guys are a dime a dozen on the dying left…. he probably likes Thailand…. all those young boys to, um, mentor.

    • Replies: @Wally
  55. Caterina says:

    Reads like a cheap attempt to paint Trump with a broad brush of others failures and extremes. Pathetic bigoted drivel.

  56. @Cyrano

    The women in Poland looked pretty damn good when I was there! Your hatred of everything Polish and German is affecting your vision as well as your judgment.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  57. WHAT says:

    Even worse then, as Russia is exporting cars itself now. Chemicals could be useful, depending on what exactly it is.

  58. @gustafus

    Thanks for the update on Hungary. Didn’t know about the recent influx of Germans.

    Presumably it will become a FLOOD of Germans into Hungary, Poland, etc. as the Muslims and Africans in Germany become ever more numerous and more aggressive & violent.

    I don’t speak Hungarian and it seems harder to learn for an English-speaker than Romance languages, Germanic languages, or maybe even Russian. But I do speak German, so a sufficiently large German contingent there could make it a more comfortable place for me to retire / flee myself.

    Of course, the Germans and French et al. could just decide to reclaim their own lands and deport the savaged, but that doesn’t seem likely at the moment. Budapest, you say? ……

    • Replies: @Apex_Predator
  59. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It really reads like low rent propaganda. Feffer never even tries to make the case for mass-immigration (or anything, really) and simply resorts to accusing the unbelievers of spreading “dark mutterings about migrants”. Meanwhile, Western Europeans are getting butchered and raped while travelling on his proverbial train straight into civil war and genocide.

    Bottom line is that the Hungarian women and children can still play in their parks and traverse their streets without fear. They still live in Europe and have a future while the West is getting transformed into a police state ghetto. This is why the globalists insist on “sharing the burden”. The contrast is jarring, and eye-opening.

  60. Cyrano says:

    You do have a reading comprehension issues, don’t you? I was referring to Polish men, Polish women are pretty. Polish people are brothers, the only thing that bothers me about them is the extremist religious sect that they belong to, nothing else.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  61. Thirdeye says:

    Unz has a good philosophy with this site: throw a bunch of conflicting ideas into a bowl and shake the bowl until the best ideas rise to the top. There’s value in knowing what people who disagree with you are saying, although sometimes it is simply morbid entertainment.

    • Replies: @iffen
  62. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Relatively decent people may find pole dancing entertaining once in a while, I’ll have to defer to your expertise when it comes to prostitution though.

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
  63. Beckow says:

    Yes, Budapest is beautiful and safe. So are Prague, Bratislava and Krakow (I don’t get up to Warsaw much, so I don’t know).

    Even compared to Vienna – that is literally next door – these cities feel more normal, more evenly affluent, and more European. I am on the fence on Vienna, it might recover, but they would have to act very quickly.

    I don’t think London, Paris, Brussels, or even Berlin can be salvaged. The tipping points into Third World over-crowded, unsafe hell-holes have passed. Or to become something like US inner-city ghettos. They will not recover, they will slowly get worse, and then suddenly collapse into un-livability.

    Who in the West thought that this would be a good idea?

  64. @RadicalCenter

    I’m not sure of course, but I fear the continuing wars in the ME and N Africa, and the resulting migrant flow towards the rich EU member states are part of a greater plan: not just to destabilise the ME and N Africa, but also the EU countries, in order to turn the EU into a USA clone.
    The nation states politically hardly exist any more, but culturally they still exist.
    A large inflow of people of a quite different culture will destroy the existing cultures, and create internal strife within those still existing cultures.
    The main reason for GB citizens to leave the EU is that they want to be able to regulate their immigration.
    Merkel’s reign seems to end, but the damage has been done already, and, in my opinion, is irreversible.
    The French writer Eric Zemmour, he wrote a book with the title ‘The French Suicide’, foresees civil war followed by deportation.
    But, aside from all other considerations, moral and legal, deportation to where ?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  65. @gustafus

    These Germans streaming into Hungary. Is this going to end up like Californians migrating to Oregon? Of perhaps people from the Northeast moving to Texas?

    It is said Blue State exiles to a Red State bring the very political culture they are trying to escape, with them. Could this happen in Europe?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  66. peterAUS says:

    Only if the Russians call the shots. At the end of the day, the problem is unsolvable because Russians tend to believe that they ought to be the leaders and masters of all Slavic people. Eastern Europeans have no reason to agree to this; no one wants to submit, especially to a nation that has a lower GDP/capita and has a tendency to lobby imaginative, colorful and virulent contempt at them.

    Pretty much.
    Add Baltics, Magyars and Romanians in the mix too (neither Slavic).
    People here most of the time totally miss the historical/cultural element of all those hare-brained “integrations/alliances”.
    Reducing East European societies to simple issues of economy, GDP and such is funny actually.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  67. martin2 says:

    The author of this article never addresses the real reason that the eastern Europeans are voting the way they are: Because immigration from the Third World has obviously destroyed the security and freedom of the people of Western Europe and they don’t want it to happen to them.

  68. @Inquiring Mind

    Excellent analogy! I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened, given the suicidal, obstinate willful blindness of most Germans of my acquaintance.

    Hopefully Hungary will never give citizenship and voting rights to any of the Germans fleeing there from Eurabia.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  69. MarkinLA says:
    @jilles dykstra

    A Brit invented the first jet engine. His design (from what I remember) was somewhat flawed in that the compressor was separate from the main engine body where the common design has everything on the same spinning shaft.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @jilles dykstra
  70. @peterAUS

    I wasn’t, of course, reducing Eastern European societies merely to economics, though I hope you enjoy your condescending alleged amusement.

    Despite the ugly past between Russia and the other countries, it will nonetheless make sense for Russia to offer such trade and energy agreements. Those agreements would be in the self-interest of Russia rather than for charitable or humanitarian reasons (which I agree would not likely motivate Russians in this regard).

    Moreover, notwithstanding Russia’s desire to always call the shots over its smaller Slavic neighbors to the west, a clear-headed Russian leader will still recognize that Russia benefits, on balance, from having such agreements with Slavic countries that are wise enough to leave the EU, even if the agreements are not as one-sided as Russia might prefer. Putin appears to be such a “clear-headed leader”, but of course we cannot know that for sure, let alone know whether his successors will be.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  71. MarkinLA says:
    @jacques sheete

    due to no real fault with the Japanese except that they were gaining some self sufficiency and independence.

    The Embargo on oil and scrap metal was for Japanese aggression in China. Japan could have left China and the Embargo would have been lifted.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  72. Wally says: • Website

    You gotta love this:

    “Donald Trump remains a deeply unpopular president”

    Yet DT’s approval rating is much higher than Germany’s Merkel, France’s Macron, Britain’s May, & Canada’s Trudeau.


  73. Wally says: • Website
    @Jason Liu

    Indeed, so desirable that it’s being rejected.

  74. Wally says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra

    And more importantly, there was no murder of ‘6M Jews & 5M others’ by Germans, there were no German homicidal ‘gas chambers’.
    Those claims have been debunked with ease.

    Even the fake claims against Germans could not keep their high IQs, genius for industry, technological achievements down.

    As for jet engines, see:
    “Dr. Hans von Ohain and Sir Frank Whittle are both recognized as being the co-inventors of the jet engine.”
    The Germans, however, beat the Brits by 2 years in actually flying a Jet airplane.

    • Replies: @szopen
  75. peterAUS says:

    Moreover, notwithstanding Russia’s desire to always call the shots over its smaller Slavic neighbors to the west, a clear-headed Russian leader will still recognize that Russia benefits, on balance, from having such agreements with Slavic countries that are wise enough to leave the EU, even if the agreements are not as one-sided as Russia might prefer. Putin appears to be such a “clear-headed leader”, but of course we cannot know that for sure, let alone know whether his successors will be.

    I get it.

    Those nations/peoples have to forget the history of their relations with Russia and rely on Mr. Putin personally.
    The Savior. The One.
    On top of that they can’t be sure what’s going to happen when Putin isn’t in power anymore. Not long now I guess, the man is getting old.

    Doesn’t work that way I am afraid.

    Those nations/peoples do understand there is a problem.
    They do NOT see a solution in “East”. Well, only one is but that’s beside the point here.

    BTW, isn’t Russian system the same, just on a smaller scale, as West?
    What exactly is a positive difference there for an average person?
    Life based on personal earnings (paid employment)-check.
    Fractional reserve banking-check.
    Parliamentary political system/democracy-check
    State violence as a guarantor of law and order-check.
    Health care based on personal earnings-check
    I guess this covers basics of life.

    Now, on a fine detail: where are those elements better for an average person, in West or Russia?
    Like, where do people migrate more: from West to Russia or from Russia to West?
    Or…those East Europeans, for example; where to Pollacks immigrate more? Or Bulgarians? Or any of them.

    As for elites:
    Money: when you compare amount of money held in western banks by Russians compared to amount of money held in Russian banks held by Westerners, which is bigger?
    Health care: when you compare how many Russians seek medical help in West versus other way around, which number is bigger?
    Education: when you compare Russian kids getting education in West versus other way around, which number is bigger?

    I’ve seen some very good spins on all of that by Russophiles/Russians.
    More is merrier, give it a shot, please.

    I know that people desperately seek a solution to the current mess.
    I just don’t feel its in the East/Russia.
    More importantly, all those average East Europeans don’t feel it either.

  76. Wally says: • Website

    Not really, see:

    The Germans actually flew their jet plane 2 yrs before the Brits.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  77. MarkinLA says:

    Nothing in your post refutes the claim the Whittle was the first to build a jet engine. Whittle’s design was inferior but his concept of an engine using thrust to push an aircraft versus spinning airfoils pulling it forward was first.

    • Replies: @Wally
  78. @peterAUS

    Agree with much of what you say here, actually. And in light of history, who can blame Poles, Hungarians, et al., for deeply distrusting Russia, with or without Putin in charge.

    But I’m not portraying Putin as a savior for central and eastern Europeans. I assume that he is out to advance the interests of the RUSSIAN people and State — at best — not the interests of central and eastern Europeans, to the extent that those interests conflict.

  79. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “This year, neo-Nazis flew the American flag in a February march in Croatia’s capital Zagreb to celebrate Donald Trump…”
    — Sounds like a righteous anger. But the “protesting lady” (John Feffer) somehow managed to omit, completely, the rise of neo-Nazism in Ukraine. And who has promoted the resurgence of Nazism in Ukraine? – The “activists” of the US State Dept. There have been numerous demonstrations celebrating the Nazi collaborators in Ukraine and Baltic states. Seems that this atrocity – which is the direct result of Mr. Obama et al.’ policies targeting Russian federation while promoting the NATO belligerence – does not fit Mr. Feffer narrative.

    • Replies: @Wally
  80. @peterAUS

    Perhaps the Poles prefer to be occupied by POTUS Kamala Harris’s Negro-MS-13-Muzzie US Military…..

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  81. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “All of that by Russophiles/Russians…”

    – if you are into name calling, then you certainly deserve to be called a belligerent ziocon hating Russians and Russian federation with all your guts.
    And what exactly you are gloating about – Russia’s weakness? The country is indeed still weak and it is trying to get out of the state of ruin; Russians are working on rebuilding and restoring the economy and agriculture, rather successfully. Is it the Golan Heights that you cannot forgive Russians? They intervened (legally) to save the sovereignty of Syria and to stop the slaughter of the innocent civilians of all ages… Where is your moral compass?
    By the way, do you have American education to criticize authoritatively Russian education? Do you know who are the best and brightest at the US universities? – Check their countries of origin. Ron Unz has done excellent research on the topic.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Miro23
  82. peterAUS says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Sounds bad eh?

    Beats Katyn massacre and Warsaw Pact experience, among other things, perhaps.

    I gather you live in Russia.
    Enlighten us, what’s the current average….gift….to a doctor? Just a general practitioner, mind you.

    • Replies: @Anon
  83. peterAUS says:

    The country is indeed still weak and it is trying to get out of the state of ruin;


    A Russian/Rusophile writing THAT…….. here?!


    Well, thank you for the confirmation, anyway.

    While we are on the topic on weakness could you, please, expand on that?

    Say, if you were Putin and his team what would you fix straight away?

    May I suggest:
    1. Eradicate the corruption.
    that will create a healthy base for:
    2. Create a strong consumer product industry so an average Russian can buy all he/she needs without any Western imports. From stove, through TV to a decent car.
    Well, that’s for a starter.

    All yours now…..

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @RadicalCenter
  84. Miro23 says:

    Hopefully Hungary will never give citizenship and voting rights to any of the Germans fleeing there from Eurabia.

    Very important point. If the US had NOT given citizenship and voting rights to anyone who arrived after 1945, it would still be Anglo-American, with more recent long term foreign residents (what the Swiss call “Guest workers”), not affecting its identity and politics.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  85. Miro23 says:

    Is it the Golan Heights that you cannot forgive Russians? They intervened (legally) to save the sovereignty of Syria and to stop the slaughter of the innocent civilians of all ages… Where is your moral compass?

    Ziocon “peterAUS” doesn’t have a moral compass.

    His suggestion here is the destruction of Iran as a job creation scheme:

    Trump administration: bring back jobs, please certain parts of Deep State->a decent regional war would be a good option.

    Iran would please Zionists and weaken Russia. Let’s go for it.

    The most important, the war effort, on that level, will rejuvenate the economy and bring back those jobs the voters lost. THAT is the primary goal here.

    Personally, I believe, if the war is sold to an average American, it could deliver the goals and objective I mentioned above.

  86. polskijoe says:

    A Polexit is unlikely even at this time. Afaik around 70% support EU.
    This changes if the EU forces Muslims, than 50% or so want to leave the EU. (thats when it becomes similar to Brexit).

  87. polskijoe says:

    If the EU continues its retarded policies, then I am for Poland leaving (along with Visegrad, maybe Austria).
    even creating an improved relationship with Russia and Ukraine and Belarus.
    The other elephant in the room is the US. They likely would not want that.
    They create that Anglo-Zionist which is not always compatable with National Conservative or Catholic standards.

    Polish attitudes on Russia and Russians:
    Large amount distrust Russia as a state.
    Around 4/10 dislike/hate Russians.
    Around 3/10 like Russians (the rest neutral).
    Around 1/2 want to improve economic relations
    Only 5-15 percent trust Putin.

    Any relationship with Russia would have to careful.
    Because their “pan-slavic” type people, want to dominate Slavic countries.
    that is unacceptable.
    A relations would have to be Slavics and East Europe on equal terms.

    I wish Europe (all of it) was united in some shape, but there are so many groupings and divisions
    it seems like fantasy.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  88. polskijoe says:

    I think this article is weird on the economics side.

    1)Central and Eastern Europeans mostly do not want to become liberalized.

    2)I rather not live in the richest country, because the richest countries often become materialized and start to lose morals (check Sweden, Germany, Canada, US). Avoiding being the richest prevents third worlders from entering by the masses.

    3)The gap in economy has been closed significantly. Polands economy is okay.
    The problem is possible increase in debt, and foreign business intruding and replacing.
    Also some curruption.

  89. @RadicalCenter

    My last long term ex-GF (~3 years, late 20s) was a Hungarian national who worked for the US State Dept. training diplomats. Besides being an absolute knock-out with green eyes (1/3 of Hungarians have them, trivia fact because of that odd genetic admixture / geographical positioning between Slavic, Central European, and Caucaus countries) and well fit in general she was a language instructor.

    Hungarian is a bizarre language that has nothing to do whatsoever with any other language in the region is more Uro-Finnish in structure. It is therefore rated level “4” by the US State Dept. along with Japanese, Arabic, etc. short version: It’s a difficult language to master.

    Also as another aside, my ex was a rabid lefty NPR listener and had been poisoned by living in Paris and DC for too long. She was utterly horrified by Orban and considered the whole thing a point of national shame. She was also very “anti-racist” of course coming from a country where she never even SAW an African until she landed in Paris / DC. For some nice schadenfreude I rode DC metro with her one day when the “teenagers” decided to go wild in a train car screaming, cursing, hanging from the handguards like apes in a cage and knocking things out of people’s hands.

    That look of primal fear and terror on her face was such a simple joy to me. It is the look you will see on any liberal face who hasn’t faced their “pets” up close and personal. I was armed and calm at the time and simply watched the ape show as it played out with full knowledge that she is the definition of why women should not be allowed to vote.

    Tall, sophisticated, slender, intelligent, yet myopically stupid when it came to rational thought and observable objective reality. True Story Bro(tm)

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  90. Wally says: • Website
    @jacques sheete

    And then the classic Red flag, ‘Look at how well socialism works in Sweden’.

    Indeed, the mandated & false Nazi stuff is for Pavlovian dogs. People routinely use it in an attempt to win arguments they are losing.
    ex. ‘That’s what the Nazis thought’, etc., etc.

    Funny, most people only know what they’re told by Jews when it comes to ‘the Nazis’.
    Not exactly a reliable source of information, especially anything historical in nature.

  91. Wally says:

    No they don’t, and you have no proof they do.

    • Replies: @Anon
  92. Wally says:

    Polish cars?

    Help me on that one.

    • Replies: @szopen
  93. Wally says:

    “Paris is now a sewer”

    Paris, yes, I know / knew it well.

    Absolutely gone.

    It’s informative to see so many Parisians rationalize the destruction of their city.

  94. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    No, he’s actually the most ignorant life form in existence: an American who thinks that the rest of the world has to share his exact obsession and demands everyone to act as he thinks. In many ways, they and the Russians have a lot in common.

  95. Wally says:

    Try reading the citation.

    Bye now.

  96. Wally says: • Website


    Garbage in, garbage out.

    Simply stated, there were the ‘Nazis’ with the impossible ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ and there were the ‘Nazis’ without the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    • Replies: @szopen
  97. Erebus says:

    A quote, mutatis mutandis:

    Create a strong consumer product industry so an average American/Australian/British/Canadian can buy all he/she needs without any Eastern imports. From stove, through TV to a decent car.
    Well, that’s for a starter.

    How many cars, TVs and stoves does Australia produce, again? Any?
    The Russian consumer can actually buy Russian made versions from both domestic and foreign owned plants that produce all those items on Russian soil. The difference is, and it is a strategic difference, is that the Russian continues to enjoy the long term stability that a positive trade and current account balance implies, while the Westerner contributes to the national debt load in his enjoyment of those items.
    In fact Peter, had you done a little homework, you’d know that the Russian economy exhibits an extraordinarily low level of imports for its size. That implies self-sufficiency on a scale not enjoyed by almost any other large economy. In fact, should Russia close its borders entirely to imports, whatever shortfalls occurred would in a matter of a few years be reversed. Well, except for French wines and Italian cheeses. Those are indeed inimitable. That’s what a highly educated population and resource depth gets you.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  98. @MarkinLA

    I explained that at the end of WWII Germany had hundreds of jet fighters, yet you claim that that the jet engine was a British invention.
    There never was any British jet fighter during WWII.

  99. peterAUS says:

    Wow….my God that’s a paradise.

    Russians can buy everything they need, Russian made, there in Russia. They enjoy the long term stability. Self-sufficiency etc.
    Oh, that slip of “a matter of a few years”, but we’ll pass.
    And, on top of it highly educated population and resources depth.
    What a country.

    I actually get an impression you really believe all this crap you’ve just written. A true believer.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Erebus
    , @Anon
  100. I am an expat Canadian, not of Hungarian descent, who now is resident in Budapest. I have been resident for more than 5 years and worked on and off on projects for many years before I became a resident. The characterisation of Orban as an “illiberal” is so off-base it makes me cringe. That you couple this straw man example with an attack on Trump (however deserved) deligitimises almost all the rest of your argument (a giant pile of stinking red herring).

    When he made the famous comment that maybe Hungary might want to be more illiberal, it was a criticism of the liberalist policies that were tearing apart Greece, Spain, Portugal and now the Ukraine. The real rightest parties have been moved to the fringes of politics. The former communist aparatchiks, reborn as Socialists and Social Democrats have also fallen out of favour after their profligate spending that drove the public debt too high and their thieving practices that enriched an inner coterie have come to light. Far from perfect, the current government at least has conducted open referenda on important issues, has abandoned or reversed policies that proved unpopular or that seemed to cause damage, and certainly represents a majority on the issue of unrestricted immigration (there is a large and welcome legitimate migration of Syrians into Hungary, by the way). There still are wealthy individuals that exercise too much influence (just like almost everywhere else these days it seems) and the rule of law needs to be strengthened. But abuse is at tolerable levels, the streets are safe and services are improving. Government debt has stabilised and is falling as a percent of GDP. General welfare has improved, though not enough to close the gap with the dominant West European economies who still enjoy many privileges, especially in banking and finance.

    What makes me cringe is founded on many aspects of what is going on in Hungary, a small country struggling back from a noticable deficit at the beginning of the 1990’s (of which I have direct experience as an advisor to the Privatisation Agency over two years). Many structural issues remain to be addressed. But the innuendo that Fidesz somehow stands apart as a corrupt, authoritarian party does not stand up to much scrutiny. Just remember that Obama came to power as a lawyer and senator of modest means, now retires to multi-millionaire homes and leads a lavish lifestyle, while the Clintons, supposedly dead broke at the end of the Clinton presidency, now boast many, many millions of personal wealth. If the U.S. wants to lead by example, this is what others see and take to heart.

    There have been many “carpetbaggers” from the West, such as the example in Poland you use, who sought personal wealth and glory after the transition. They were much more a product of Western belief in its superiority and Western hubris than of local Eastern European politics. Many of the issues you point out were caused by the illusions of rebirth and faith in the West that Easterners naively believed in. Fortunately, local solutions are appearing and local success stories are slowly emerging in the hands of local politicians who understand who they represent.

  101. @MarkinLA

    Frederick W. Marks III, ‘Wind over Sand, The diplomacy of Franklin Roosevelt’, 1988 Athens Georgia
    Charles A. Beard, ‘American Foreign Policy in the Making, 1932 – 1940, A study in responsibilities’, New Haven, 1946
    Charles A. Beard, ‘President Roosevelt and the coming of the war 1941, A study in appearances and realities’, New Haven, 1948
    Harry Elmer Barnes, ed., ‘Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, A critical examination of the foreign policy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and its aftermath’, Caldwell, Idaho, 1953
    Thomas E. Mahl, ‘Desperate deception, British covert operations in the United States 1939-44’, Dulles, Virginia, 1998
    Bruce Allen Murphy, ‘The Brandeis/Frankfurter Connection, The Secret Political Activities of Two Supreme Court Justices’, New York, 1983
    William L. Neumann, ‘America encounters Japan, From Perry to MacArthur’, 1963, 1965, New York
    Waldo Heinrichs, ´Threshold of War, Franklin D. Roosevelt & American Entry into World War II’, New York 1988
    Charles A. Lindbergh, ´The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh’, New York, 1970

    Already in early 1940 the US navy waged war in the Atlantic against Germany.
    As Hitler at all costs wanted to prevent that FDR got an excuse for war the USA war in the Atlantic did not provide FDR the excuse he needed.
    In his election campaign he had promised ‘not to send USA boys overseas unless the USA was attacked’.
    The way out was a Japanese attack.
    The commander of the Pacific fleet refused to concentrate the Pacific fleet in ‘the mouse trap’ Pearl Harbour, but, he said to FDR, ‘you can nominate someone else’.
    FDR did, he ignored fifty promotion places, and nominated Kimmel.
    FDR then sabotaged the negotiations with Japan.
    Kimmel made sure the three essential aircraft carriers were on excercise when Pearl Harbour was attacked, what Japan destroyed was scrap iron.
    USA war planning began already in 1937.

    • Replies: @Alden
  102. szopen says:

    Those claims were never debunked. You are wrong.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Bill Jones
  103. szopen says:

    There are no “Polish cars”, because we produce cars under Italian, French and German names. E.g. Mercedes, Fiats, parts for Opel and Suzuki, factory of General Motors … I’ve told you that our problem is that no one knows those are produced in Poland. My wife’s cousin worked as some kind of machine designer. I don’t know what his job was exactly, but he said he does the job, sends the project to Germany, where German engineer stamps the projects and then it is sold as German work.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  104. szopen says:

    Why do you publish a link to a thoroughly discredited site as CODOH? I discussed few times with denialists and usually they produce completely absurd and usually easily debunked claims, sometimes including claims which can be debunked by a simple amateur like me with access to google. The problem is only that each time you lose half an hour of time for research, and the denialist will ignore you anyway. I’ve learned the best way to deal with denialist, therefore, is simply to remind them that Germans had no problems with shooting hundreds of thousands Poles; why they would care about shooting or murdering millions of Jews?

    • Agree: iffen, polskijoe
  105. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Who doesn’t what?

    • Replies: @Wally
  106. iffen says:

    shake the bowl until the best ideas rise to the top.

    I trust that we can rely upon you to let us know which ideas qualify.

  107. bartok says:

    [Gee whiz, where could this hate for immigrants come from?] The Great Replacement? [What are you on about? Relax and live your own life.]

    White Genocide. Jewish revenge for the Holocaust. [Jeez, are you kidding?]

    “Shove it in their [Tory voters] faces” – Tony Blair’s secret immigration policy. His Jewish immigration minister was allowed to bring hundreds of thousands of migrants in. When she planned a speech to explain and celebrate her policies, Blair forbid it. She was directed to work quietly, with Blair’s full support. White grandchildren for the Blair family, mulatto moron grandchildren (if any) for white Britons. Wogs everywhere in the primary schools, Islamic takeover in two generations. [What are you, a racist?]

  108. @szopen

    I’ve learned the best way to deal with denialist, therefore, is simply to remind them that Germans had no problems with shooting hundreds of thousands Poles; why they would care about shooting or murdering millions of Jews?


  109. Beckow says:

    Would you kindly answer the question:

    How many cars, consumer products, electronics do US, Australia and UK produce?

    Let me help you: they mostly import their consumer products from China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc… They pay for these imports by shipping raw materials, commodities, entertainment, movies, etc… They also pay for it by creating debt out of thin air. That will have to be paid back, or the ‘goodies’ will stop coming. US-UK-Autralia also increasingly sell their countries to immigrants for visas and access to Western real estate. (‘Toys for land’ exchanges.)

    It is a great deal, but not sustainable. Maybe instead of your lame ‘I hate Russians, they are so poor‘ distractions that you produce here, you should look at the situation at home. The old biblical ‘you see a speck in your neighbour’s eye…’ – applies to you.

    Why do you obsess so much? Are you an old bitter Cold War remnant who fought on the wrong side in WWII?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @RadicalCenter
  110. Beckow says:

    “There are no “Polish cars”, because we produce cars under Italian, French and German names”

    One reason for that is that ‘Polish cars’ wouldn’t sell well, not even in Poland. Trade-marks matter. But over time those who actually make things, those who physically control the production, end up the winners. That has always eventually happened: you can look at China, or colonial farming, or any number of other historical examples, but those who control the production of goods eventually take over. Those who control ‘trade marks’ and ‘marketing’ lose out.

    I always remind my Polish friends that they need to think long term. That means looking at where the future markets will be. Poland has shot itself in the foot by its anti-Russian fanaticism, it is an economic own goal. Today you cannot market Polish goods in Russia as ‘Polish’ – they are hidden under German, Italian, etc… exports to Russia. That is costing Poland enormous money and opportunities. And it is getting much worse, Russians are starting to dig through supply chains and refuse products with major Polish sub-components. Given the size of the Russian market, and the availability of alternatives (Asia) this costs Poland a few percentage points of GNP. Well, there is a price for stupidity…but ‘hating’ must feel so good.

    • Replies: @szopen
    , @jilles dykstra
  111. woodNfish says:

    “Virulent, alt-right, far right, NAZI … blah, blah, blah”

    What a load of B’S this article is. The Poles and Hungarians are smarter than their western brethren in opposing mass immigration of blacks and Muslims. Multiculturalism is a code word for white genocide pushed by jew elites. The only way to stop them is to kill them, and I think that will begin happening very soon, God willing, beginning with Soros and his family.

  112. szopen says:

    The problem is that there is not much correlation and access to Russian market and the friendliness towards Russia. Russia was putting embargoes or blocked our ports in Zalew Wiślany (Калининградский залив ) no matter whether our relationships were cozy or not. And You overestimate Russia’s importance. Just look at the size of our agriculture exports – after Russia’s embargoes the export rose without any disturbance, as producers turned over to different markets. In the long turn, it was quite healthy.

    However, you are mistaking “hating” with being wary. I, personally, like Russians. However, I am affraid of Russia. Once I was on panslavic group, where we were all cozy and friendly. Until one Russian suggested that true Slavic alphabet is cyryllic, and therefore in future panslavic utopia we will be all speaking Russian, using rubles and cyryllic. He seemed genuinely surprised when we had not reacted enthusiastically.

    The favourite joke is about Russian and Pole talking.
    Russian: “Why there is so much hate between us? We are both Slavs, we should be friends!”
    Pole: “Agree! We should be freinds!”
    Russian: “Yeah! We should stop this endless fights! Why don’t you join us peacefully?”

    Most Russians do not know why it’s funny.

    Or another joke, told by my father, when I supposedly asked him whether Russians are our friends. “No, so. Russians are not our friends, they are our brothers. You see, you are allowed to change your friends”. And again, many Russians do not seem to get the joke…

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Erebus
  113. peterAUS says:

    Maybe instead of your lame ‘I love Russians, they are so much better‘ distractions that you produce here, you should look,realistically, at that kleptocratic “alternative” to West.

    Why are you so obsessive about criticizing West?
    Are you a kid who forgot how it looked like living under Soviets?

    As for WW2 and wrong side, you mean East European nationalists fighting against Soviet invasion/Communist dictatorship?
    Or all those sent to Gulags? Including Russian POWs captured by Germans due to Stalin idiocy?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Anon
  114. Beckow says:

    not much correlation…access to Russian market and the friendliness towards Russia

    I think there is. Poland has had an anti-Russian policy of different virulence since (at least) 1990. As Poland has escalated in the last few years, so has Russia. I also think the real economic consequences are yet to come – it takes years to change economic links.

    Exports to Russia are around 5% of Poland’s exports. That underestimates the importance of Russia because so much of what gets exported to Western Europe is eventually re-exported to Russia. Russia’s market is roughly 20-25% of EU’s. There is also synergy: Russia wants what EU produces and EU needs Russia’s resources. It is simply not logical to think that in the long run this natural economic link would not grow.

    Poland’s agricultural products (after being blocked from Russia) have been dumped as cheap stuff on EU markets. That has caused huge dislocations for other EU producers and is not sustainable – prices are too low. So again there will be a cost, it just takes a few years for these trends to work their way through the system.

    Russia is increasingly pro-actively blocking its perceived enemies from its markets – even as secondary re-exports. Poland does a lot of assembly manufacturing for Western EU companies. Those companies want to access Russia’s markets. They cannot do it if the components come from Poland. This will hurt.

    I agree about the over-bearing Russian tendencies. What can one do? larger nations are like that. I have heard things about Poles from Germans, French and English that were also not exactly ‘polite’. My point is not about friendship or ‘brotherhood’ (I don’t even particularly like our eastern Slovaks :)), it is about self-interest. Poland has forgotten about it and that is sad.

    Future is nothing else but a collection of consequences from our past and present. Poles should think before they do stupid stuff – or they will be here in 2050 belly-aching about ‘mistakes were made (again)’.

    • Replies: @szopen
  115. Beckow says:

    WWII East European nationalists fighting against Soviet invasion…

    Touche! I got you grandpa, a bit of a fascist, aren’t you? Do you also lovingly iron your Waffen SS uniform every day? Or was that you dad’s?

    Other than that, you didn’t answer my very simple question about where does US-UK-Australia get its consumer goods? Do they manufacture them?

    I guess reality is too painful.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  116. @Beckow

    To what extent to cars from nations still exist ?
    The smallest Peugeot, smallest Citroen, and smallest Toyota all are assembled in Rumenia, as far as I know.
    Essentially identical, same engine, Toyota.
    Just the interior, and front and tail lights differ somewhat.
    My Peugeot has a BMW engine with a ZDF automatic gearbox.
    Probably the same engine, and as option, gearbox, fitted into the Mini produced in GB by BMW.
    There are less and less design differences between cars, less and less technical differences, nearly all have front wheel drive, engines fitted between the front wheels, gearbox underneath, and independent rear torsion suspension.
    This why car advertising has become completely nonsensical.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  117. szopen says:

    Poland has had an anti-Russian policy of different virulence since (at least) 1990.

    SLD governments tried to be as Russia-friendly as possible. Then there was Tusk who kept on saying that we need new opening with Russia. Of course, the basic tenets of Polish policy (membership in NATO and EU) were constant, but it’s really hard to argue that those were anti-Russian goals.

    Poland’s agricultural products (after being blocked from Russia) have been dumped as cheap stuff on EU markets.

    That’s part of the picture; We are exporting now to such exotic countries as Qatar or Taiwan.

    You are Slovak? What do you think about V4?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  118. peterAUS says:

    I got you kid, a bit of an useful idiot, aren’t you? Do you also lovingly iron your Che Guevara T-Shirt every day? Or was that you dad’s?

    Other than that, you didn’t answer my very simple question about kleptocracy in Moscow being an alternative to The Empire. How would that work?

    I guess reality is too painful.

    As for “distraction” here, sorry about that…NOT.

    I know that most of you guys here need that daily shot but, in overwhelming the site with that echo chamber of yours you always chase away a couple of guys who really can add some value to all this blabbering here.

    Can’t have that, easily, I am afraid.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  119. @szopen

    That is not really some killer line. No one has ever doubted that the will to commit such acts existed. “Denial” is mostly a matter of questioning the methods and the total numbers. I don’t have a problem with anyone doing this. Anyone who has spent serious time in such debates knows that the matter is not nearly so straightforward to permit for language like “easily debunked.”

    Perhaps that’s just your Polish nationalist mindset at work. It’s as though you somehow believe that if “gassings” could be shown not to have occurred, that would give Germany a green light to reinvade Poland or something.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  120. Beckow says:

    Yes, and I generally like V4. We have an issue with some Hungarian-Slovak history, similar to what Russia and Poland have between each other. But that seems to be deep in the past for now.

    Tusk who kept on saying that we need new opening with Russia…

    He might have been saying it, but under Tusk Poland aggressively managed the Ukrainian fiasco for Nato. Nobody cares about Nato per se – they are generally positive when they act constructively, although both Czech and Slovakia refuse bass on our territory, unlike Poland.

    I think Poland understood under Tusk that supporting Ukrainian nationalists is a provocative act, arming them, training them, prancing around squares with them. It is playing with fire, and fire we got with everyone worse off today than before Maidan. Business has suffered across the region.

    Poland intervened in 2013-14 to help overthrow the Kiev government, Russians went into overdrive trying to respond. It was all unnecessary – we should all stay out of Ukrainian domestic politics. Poland has stepped up as a proud cudgel for the crazy elements in Nato who want to fight Russia no matter what. Now for the consequences.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  121. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I’m not sure which planet you’re on, but you do realize that there is an alternative to the West that isn’t Russia, right? So far, there’s only been one country that has invested in mine without trying to bully us into one bloc or another.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  122. Beckow says:

    Do you also lovingly iron your Che Guevara T-Shirt every day?

    The whole point of having a Che T-shirt is that one never washes or irons it. I don’t own one.

    Kleptocracy? There is some everywhere you go. And binary choices like ‘Empire or kleptocracy’ are infantile. Reality has always been more complex than that.

    You didn’t answer my question about most consumer goods coming from China. How about that? Are only Russians short of producing their own ‘consumer goods’ as you claimed above?

  123. utu says:

    that Germans had no problems with shooting hundreds of thousands Poles

    Do you really believe the numbers that 3 millions Poles on top of 3 millions Polish Jews were killed during WWII? There were 70 thousands who died in September 1939 and there were 200 thousands who died during Warsaw Uprising and then it is claimed that circa 200 thousands died in Auschwitz. Yes there were executions but it will be very hard to add up to the total of 3 millions. The 3 millions number was made up after WWII by Jakub Berman to have Poles their own martyrology and not be envious of Polish Jews for whom it was decide earlier and elsewhere that 3 million of them died.

    How many Poles were actually shot by Germans? I do not think you can come up with number higher than 50 thousands. Most of these executions were retributions which according to the various conventions at that time made them legal. The logic behind the conventions was that the occupier must have an instrument of repression to maintain order on the occupied territory for which it is responsible. Most of these executions would not have occurred if Poland surrendered to Germany after it lost the war in September 1939. Instead Polish government escaped from Poland and instigated resistance against German occupation by involving civilians and putting them at great risk. Unfortunately Poland did not have men of Marechal Pétain caliber and courage. Pétain knew he would be condemned after the war but he responded to higher call of duty of protecting the biological fabric of French society. He was not concerned with his honor. It was left to General de Gaulle to take care of France’s honor. But it was Pétain who saved French lives. Too bad that Poland pays too attention to honor and is ready to sacrifice lives of its citizens way too easily when saving lives actually requires much higher level of courage and determination. Poland should research and reflect on where form the Messiah complex was injected into its ethos. Who really benefits from it? Do we see the repeat of the same game more recently with Poland’s politics vis-à-vis Russia and Ukraine? Does Poland want to be a hero again?

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @szopen
  124. Beckow says:
    @jilles dykstra

    True. But it is also true that component assembly for each car is available in percentages. The same is true for other manufactured products. That allows customers – or countries like Russia – to pick and choose what products to buy based on where it was mostly sourced. And they are doing it.

    Western companies know this. They also want to sell in Russia the same mass-produced product as elsewhere. If Russia will not take products that have large components’ base from some countries (Poland or Romania), then the Western companies will not manufacture there. Maybe that’s a good thing, but at least go into it with open eyes.

    Preferences of large customers (e.g. Russia) are respected by businesses and there will be secondary consequences for the Polish economy.

  125. @peterAUS

    I’m an American and love my country (if not my government), and I’m glad that I live here rather than Russia. But your comment seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    First, what percentage of the average American’s shopping cart at Target, Wal-Mart, Sears,, etc., consists of products made or even assembled in the USA (versus made in China, Mexico, and the rest of the world)?

    Second, are you really lecturing other countries about CORRUPTION? Because our Congressman and presidents aren’t for sale to the highest bidder, and don’t accept many millions of dollars from corporations, unions, PACs, banks, and wealthy individuals with business directly before those same officials? Please. “First remove the mote from your own eye”, as the Bible would say. We appear to be ruled (not “represented”) by an increasingly crooked government.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  126. @Miro23

    I agree heartily, except I’d say EUROPEAN-American, not merely Anglo-American.

  127. @Apex_Predator

    Great story. I believe it. I lived and worked in DC (which, as you know, some locals like to pompously call “The District”) and have seen similar behavior on the Metro.

    Went back to DC recently for the first time in years and noticed a stark difference between the Metro on the weekend (sparse, and what people there were, were often normal, generally friendly and polite tourists from elsewhere in America) and the Metro during the week (lots of visibly unpleasan-to-hostile “African-Americans”, including a slew of fed gov “workers”).

    Of course, you can just take the Green Line into Anacostia / SouthEast ANY day, presumably, to get a taste of savage stupidity and the risks that go with it.

    I work for someone right now — a sheltered wealthy lefty type who neither takes transit nor walks the streets here in Los Angeles — who badly needs to spend some time walking downtown and especially riding mass transit through vibrantly diverse neighborhoods. He needs the same lesson in reality that your ex-GF got.

    DC Metro, like train systems in NYC and throughout the USA, is best avoided during the hours when “school” lets out, if at all possible.

  128. peterAUS says:

    Well….you guys are in….peculiar….. position there.
    Correct me if I am wrong but you probably got, and are getting, the worst of all that since ’91.
    So, you aren’t quite a good example.

    BTW, you’ll need to wait to have Chinese “way of work and life” there.
    I mean your people working under Chinese management, by Chinese rules.
    Then…..we could talk again about that “alternative”.

    Actually I’ve been having a contact with one of your guys in Belgrade for a quite some time now.
    My understanding of your affairs is…..say, you are between two worlds. Neither good for you.

  129. @Beckow

    Certainly communism wasn’t “the right side” in the Cold War for decent or sensible people. But it’s beginning to look like the victory of the Western “side” of the Cold War wasn’t so salutary for the average person in the long run, either.

  130. @silviosilver

    Germany’s “men” refuse to even protect their own women and children from murder, rape, assault, and harassment by Muslim “migrants.” Also, many Germans never have children. There won’t be enough young men, let alone young men who don’t hate their own people and culture, to put together an invasion force.

    What few young Germans will exist in 25 years, will be too busy fighting street to street against Muslims to think about re-invading Poland or Russia.

  131. @Beckow

    By the way, I am an American, and I wish I could speak and write some Slavic language the way you guys use my native language (English). Impressive.

    Hope you all over there will be wise enough to leave the EU, close your borders to Muslim and Third World immigration, and form an alliance (NOT another super-state) strong enough to stand on your own long-term independent of both the US/NATO and Russia.

    • Replies: @polskijoe
  132. peterAUS says:

    Well….how about this:

    The point of all this exchange with Russians/Russophiles is that their model is not an alternative to West.
    It….is……not…..better. It……worse.

    That’s so simple that I actually don’t get what’s the problem there.

    The Empire ====>BAD.
    Russia ========>WORSE.

    And, make no mistake, I am talking about people of West and people who are under West dominance as we speak.
    Not good.
    Should they get Russian “rules” or get under Russian dominance it would be WORSE.
    And, I mean average people. Rich…oh yes, they are good either way.

    And, take a look at immigration numbers. Where do people immigrate to/from? That’s all you need to know really.
    Or….you can get into rationalizations, debates, numbers and such. “Prove” otherwise.

    Start from yourself. Would you go and live in Russia? Anyone you know? Anyone done that?
    I have tons of immigrants around here. Plenty of Russians too. Some Yanks as well. Tons of Chinese. Don’t know anyone who went to live and work in Russia. Know a couple of guys who went and are in China teaching English.
    That’s all I need to know.

    That’s just keeping some common sense around here.

    Back to The Problem. The Empire.
    It definitely needs reforming, or, better, needs reforming so average people can live better.
    If you really want my opinion (opinions and arseholes) it’s simple: we do not want to waste time looking at Russia. We want to focus all our energies on making West better.
    Now, as long as West is as it is we are stuck with it. And that stuck means confrontation with Russia.
    The solution to that (which if not carefully managed CAN go into MAD) is to change West into something better. Definitely not into something as Russia.
    And while doing that change not get weak comparing to Russia.

    Makes sense?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  133. Wally says:

    Debate if you think you know what you’re talking about.

    You have been challenged, bring it.

    The ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    Only liars demands censorship.

    • Replies: @szopen
  134. Wally says: • Website

    You said:
    ” Russians tend to believe that they ought to be the leaders and masters of all Slavic people.”

    Prove it.

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
  135. Wally says:

    “Discredited” by who?

    Anti science Jews and pathetic former communist Poles who want to believe the impossible?

    Don’t make me laugh.

    Debate like a man:

    The ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    • Replies: @szopen
  136. Erebus says:

    I actually get an impression you really believe all this crap you’ve just written.

    And so would you, if you had as much interest in reality-based facts as in substituting fact-free Thrones-ish fantasies for doing the actual leg-work. Perhaps you could point me to the (preferably recent) IMF/CIA/private economic analysis that suggests I shouldn’t believe it.

    What I said about Russia’s economic situation, Peter, is not what I “believe”. It is what professional economic analysis has reported. I know it’s difficult for gamers to tell the difference, but I think most of the people reading this thread know & understand it.

  137. Erebus says:

    That reminds of Canadian jokes about America, the primary difference being that the Canadian versions tended to be much less subtle. That was a while ago though. Canada wound up joining peacefully, and the jokes petered out.

    As for the rest, pretty much what Beckow said.

  138. Anonymous [AKA "CriticalSkeptic"] says:

    I think the jury is still out on the promise of Trumpism. I do think there is an aspiration for a whiter American future but I’m uncertain whether than whiter future would look more like Switzerland or Belarus. On some days, the sheer ineptitude at the very top predisposes me to predict the latter trajectory.

    The world is awash with innumerable “case studies” of public policy and I’m sorry to say that none seem to look good for the prospect of human happiness. There seem to be a number of different routes to a convergent misery. There is the impoverished/dysfunctional whiteness of Belarus, the slow death of zero immigration Japan and the dystopian multiculturalism of Sweden.

    Maybe the human experiment as a whole has run its course.

  139. polskijoe says:

    Similar ideas I have (in regards to your post).

    I will focus only on the negative sides (the positives are obvious).

    That alliance would be weaker than both the East and West.
    Nukes or no nukes, there is several problems involved.
    I would see it as a bridge between Russia and West (for trading),
    but neutral on politics. The current atmosphere would heavily favor nato/eu even if such a thing happens.

    Visegrad alone is not strong enough. (I do support it).
    If you add some countries it gets stronger.
    You would need potentially allies with Ukraine, the former Yugoslav nations, Romania, maybe Austria.

    The positions would be all over the place. Serbs and Croats problem.
    Ukraine and Polish disagreements. Romania I dont know much about. But from a poll I saw
    they are fairly okay with both Orthodox and Catholics (despite being vary orthodox).\
    How about the other nations like Bosnia, Bulgaria?

    Its complicated.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  140. @Wally

    To tell the truth, I think all Slavs believe they ought to be the leaders and masters of all Slavic peoples. They are great people. One of the first diplomatic records of the Slavic people in Europe is of the Slavic leader telling the Avars that ‘other people do not rule the Slav, the Slav rules other people, that’s just how it is with us’.

  141. peterAUS says:

    Alliance of states/countries where Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia are part of?!

    Neutral on politics?

    Oh man……….

    “Complicated” doesn’t even begin to describe it.

  142. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Has not your promised land become inhabited by a large number of “Russian Jews”? Why don’t you go to preach them that their education is inadequate? — This is not just laziness that stops you from checking the educational level (and professional positions) of the émigrés from Russia. — Your posts drip with obsessive hatred for Russians.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  143. peterAUS says:

    I have a better idea.

    Why don’t YOU provide that information?
    Don’t tell me you are lazy too?

    While you are at it, why don’t you separate those into two groups?
    1. Jews from Russia
    2. Russians from Russia

    1. There are 23 medical doctors, 54 PhDs in this/that etc.
    2. There are 123 medical doctors, 154 PhDs in this/that.

    You do it out of love, of course.

    Can’t wait…..

    • Replies: @Anon
  144. @utu

    That is an invalid and, I must say, rather heartless comparison. The French could have remained French even without a Petain, since the French people were not slated for destruction. They could have remained happily French under Hitler’s domination the way Germans could have remained happily German under Napoleon’s domination. Poles didn’t have this option.

    There was no collaborationist avenue available to a Pole that would allow him evade the fate the Nazis had in store for him. Even escape to non-Nazi territory wasn’t an option, since the Russians and Ukes also had it in for him (the Wolyn massacres were illustrative in this regard). All he could do was acquiesce to his mistreatment and oppression and hope that perhaps someday it might be miraculously alleviated. Poles and Jews were very similar in this regard. Even if tales of Jewish suffering have been exaggerated, the suffering that is proven (or that I regard as proven) is quite sufficient to describe it as calamitous.

    This isn’t to say Poles, historically, have been innocent little lambs. They were as fervently ethnocentric as anyone else at the time. They would have been only too happy to have a “Russian empire” of their own, in which they’d have subjected non-Poles to the same treatment they whine incessantly that Russians subjected Poles to.

    It’s this same intense ethnocentrism that will prevent the cooperation among countries necessary to achieve either a viable non-EU alternative international organization or to side with Russia. In the former case, they’ll find it impossible to trust each other. In the latter, they’ll find it impossible to trust Russia.

    • Agree: polskijoe
    • Replies: @utu
  145. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Take responsibility for your statements. Nobody owes you anything on this forum.
    By the way, is it your sport to feign stupidity (noticed already by several commenters on this forum) or, in this case, it is an accidental by-product of unbridled Russophobia of a ziocon?

    • Replies: @Erebus
  146. Erebus says:

    Take responsibility for your statements… is it your sport to feign stupidity…

    My review of his comment history indicates that Peter’s never taken responsibility for anything he says (or tries to say), but that his dishonesty does not extend to disguising his intelligence.

  147. @peterAUS

    Yes, actually, much of your comment makes perfect sense. I agree that I prefer to raise my family in the USA rather than Russia now and for the near future.

    But will that always be the case?

    Russia has more severe problems than much of the USA in important respects.

    But, among other differences, why should we ignore the presence of TENS OF MILLIONS of generally hostile, belligerent Africans in the USA, and their near-complete absence in Russia?

    Africans here in the USA have assaulted and constantly harassed me, my wife, and many of my friends and relatives — including a much younger, larger black guy knocking me down for no reason on the sidewalk in downtown LA two weeks ago while saying “be careful, white bitch” (further injuring my back).

    Next example, current time: just this year, the teenaged daughter of my cousin was attending an event with her boyfriend in Philly earlier this year. With no cause or provocation, African-“American” men savagely attacked him, breaking his jaw, giving him a concussion, and sending him to the hospital.

    Next example, about 30 years ago: my best friend, a slightly built and quiet kind guy, then a teenager, was savagely assaulted and robbed and terrorized by a group of African “youths” (as our newspapers often call them) on the NYC subway system. A black adult passenger nearby LAUGHED out loud as the savages kicked him while he was down, spit on him, threatened to kill him, laughed, and spouted racial epithets.

    Another acquaintance was brutally raped in Trenton, New Jersey, where she (then a “progressive”) was foolishly visiting on a regular basis to do charitable work for “the disadvantaged.”

    These attacks happened. They are not a figment of our imagination, and they cannot reasonably be dismissed as trivial. They are “a big deal” physically and emotionally, and they rightly change our outlook, our decisions on where to live and work, our decisions about where to raise our kids, and ultimately our decisions on where to retire or even emigrate if need be.

    This is not a good, safe, civilized life anymore, and it’s not an isolated incident in my life or in the lives of other non-Africans in the USA. People can get lucky for a while, or they can strenuously avoid Africans when possible (hard to do for those of us who work in downtowns where they congregate to panhandle or harass). Or they can pretend it’s not happening (the popular choice in lefty PC places like LA). But our experiences are a fact, they are numerous, and things are NOT getting better.

    Another commenter here mentioned Germans starting to flee to Hungary and buying property there for retirement or otherwise. And everyone here surely has heard of the MASSIVE phenomenon of “white flight” in the USA, in which we are forced to leave the neighborhoods and towns/cities that we and our parents, grandparents, and ancestors built because of the never-ending drive of Africans to hurt us and make our lives miserable and frightening.

    I predict that there will be a widespread exodus of Germans out of Germany, French out of France, Italians out of Italy, Swedes out of Sweden, as the Muslims and Africans grow in numbers, confidence, and aggressiveness — and then in political power. They will likely prefer Poland, Hungary, and the like over Russia, but when things get bad enough, some of them will desperately accept residency in Russia if it is offered. A logical choice, too, given the circumstances.

    So yes, we need to change the USA and bring down its sick destructive Empire, not just idealize Russia. And Europeans need to deport and exclude people from alien cultures and retake their lands by any means necessary, not look to Putin or Russia as saviors.

    But if we are unsuccessful, Russia may look to many people like a less-bad option — however unlikely that would have seemed before things deteriorated so badly in the West.

    Just think how drastically different “France” is today from 20 years ago. The pace of demographic and cultural change seems to be accelerating, so imagine what “France” or “Germany” will be like in 20 years more.

    Russia merely needs to “hold its own” in terms of culture, demography, and violent crime rates, while the Western countries sink into Third World Hell. Russia might or might not be able to do that. But if they do, it will become rational to view Russia as the less-unfavorable option for those who can get in.

    Admittedly, I wouldn’t enjoy the cold in Russia — especially after living in Southern California. And it’s not so easy to learn that language well enough at my age, let alone later.

    But Russia will not be out of the question for many white people who find that they have nowhere else to run. (Unclear whether Chinese/Indian Australia will welcome white refugees 25 years hence. I wouldn’t bet on it. Same with Chinese/Indian/Muslim “Canada” by that point.)

    God bless and save America, Europe, and Russia and OUR peoples.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Anonymous
  148. peterAUS says:

    I get your point.
    Mine is, again, simple: Russia and/or Russian model is NOT a solution.

    You talk about your problem with, what’s the current proper…ah, yes, “African-Americans”.
    Make ……………mistake……
    It is one thing to be singled out by a “bad guy” on a street and beaten up.
    It is ABSOLUTELY another to have a state “team” knocking at your door at 2 A.M. THINK about this for a moment. You….Americans….and most Westerners just don’t get it. True, it’s not happening now in Russia. But, it was happening a lot before. Should things get bad for the Kremlin I am positive it will start happening again.
    Then, another thing. Proper ethnic violence. Actually….only “African-Americans” had it similar in some parts of US. Or some other minorities. Thinking about it even whites, as in that “county war” in 19th century.
    When OTHER hordes, armed to teeth, get into your village, town…even part of a city.
    THAT level of violence against a person/family you…Americans (and most Westerners) just don’t get.
    Think about it a bit. Try to visualize all that.

    Well…say, this latest flurry of articles/comments about Balkans, for example.
    Compare your/whites problem in USA to an ethnic group problem in Bosnia during “troubles”.
    Compare you/your family plight to a plight of a, say, Muslim family when they realized that the defense of Srebrenica collapsed and Serb mechanized infantry is coming into their hamlet in 30 minutes.
    No offense, but really…..

    Your real problem is simple. You/we still have it so good that we aren’t willing to risk.
    You…aren’t willing to risk getting into…ahm…”serious self-defense” there (and you have all the means at your disposal)….because, say, even successful legal defense can render you really poor.
    Can you compare that to a man with an AK-47 with 3 magazines and a week of training, waiting for OTHERs mechanized infantry, to buy some time so his family could get some chance fleeing into other “safe haven”?

    Bottom line is: you/we don’t have a problem. We have a…nuisance. That nuisance needs fixing.
    And looking to/up to Russia as a model is wrong.

  149. @Cyrano

    “A reading comprehension issues (sic)”?

    Not me, brah.

  150. @jilles dykstra

    If their home countries won’t take them back, shoot them. Sad, but we won’t be the ones causing that. Their home countries can take them back.

  151. @peterAUS

    You have point but you are overstating it. The serious attacks and RAPE I recounted, were not a “nuisance.”

    My friend who was raped by the African has never felt safe again.

    My friend who was beaten down on the subway in NYC has a lifelong injury.

    My back problem has worsened and will never go away.

    You underestimate the frequency and severity of African brutality in the USA. Look up the story of an autistic white guy in Chicago who was tortured and scalped by Africans, recently.

    Look up the whites who were raped, beaten, and tortured by drinking drain cleaner.

    “Nuisance”, eh?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  152. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    He will soon get to be part of the Russian solution anyway!

    We won’t let the samurai take even the smallest piece of our land,
    We will stand up and protect the capital of amber,
    We will save our Sevastopol and Crimea, for the sake of our descendants.
    And we will return Alaska to the haven of the motherland.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  153. @peterAUS

    I do not look up to Russia as a model. But: to the extent that Russians still have the courage and decency to defend their own people in their own country, which we do NOT, that is to be respected, admired, and emulated.

    Likewise, my government appears to have armed and aided ISIS along with other Islamists in Syria. As far as I know, Russia has only attacked and opposed those animals. Another area where Russia deserves respect and praise, not my gov.

    Having said that, it sounds like Purim and Crew need to do a lot more to deport and exclude non-Russian Muslim from Central Asia. The longer they wait, the harder and more violent it will be.

    (Yes, I’ve heard all about Tajiks, Kyrgyz, etc being “more peaceful” and “more assimilated” than the muslims invading Europe. Seems to be correct based on accounts by Russians. They still need to go. Especially if they have higher birth rates than Russians. It’s bad enough that Bashkir, Tatars, and especially Chechens / Dagestanis / Ingush are part of “Russia.”)

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  154. Ha, gotta love autocorrect. That’s PUTIN and Crew.

  155. @Anon

    Russia had better hurry up or the whole State will be Filipino 😉

    • LOL: Bill Jones
  156. peterAUS says:

    “Nuisance”, eh?

    It is.
    What you posted one has in any of “bad” neighborhoods anywhere in the world.

    I was going to post a comparison to the REAL ethnic violence but, then, thought better of it.
    You can Google it; it’s all available for those willing to get it. Takes a strong stomach and a bit of introspection, though.

    Comparing what you posted to experience of peoples from former Yugoslavia, through Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Libya to a decent part of Africa and some parts of Asia is just……..interesting, for a lack of better word.

    The problem is, though, you can’t seem to get it.
    Don’t worry, most of Americans/Westerners can’t, either.
    Makes some sort of sense, though. On a couple of levels.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  157. @polskijoe

    As the American Revolutionaries said, “We shall either stand together, or hang separately.”

  158. Miro23 says:


    Hopefully Hungary will never give citizenship and voting rights to any of the Germans fleeing there from Eurabia.

    Very important point. If the US had NOT given citizenship and voting rights to anyone who arrived after 1945, it would still be Anglo-American, with more recent long term foreign residents (what the Swiss call “Guest workers”), not affecting its identity and politics.

    This is a blueprint for a route out of the current mess.

    The first step is to recognize that the 1965 Hart-Celler Immigration and Nationality Act has failed. It’s political sponsors said that it would not affect US demographic mix, while the reality is that it has put the United States (an Anglo-European country in 1965), on the route to Brazilianization.

    The next step is to rescind the 1965 Act.

    In other words, all post 1965 immigrants to the US may stay in the US, and retain all their rights ( to work, start businesses etc.) but lose their right to citizenship. Their status is converted from Citizen (with nationality and voting rights) to long term Foreign Resident.

    This wouldn’t affect the day to day lives of post 1965 immigrants, but it would return political power to Anglo-European Americans, who are after all the people who founded and developed the modern nation.

    An interesting aspect would be that almost all African-Americans and Jewish-Americans would remain US citizens, but would have much less ability to attack a nation clearly defined as ethnic Anglo-European.

    Of course, the rescission of the 1965 Act would face a hyterical outcry from the existing elites (Jewish & corporate special interests) and the SJW crowd, but, in reality, they are never going to be satisfied until Anglo-European America is destroyed – so why bother with them.

    The real problem is to find a politician with sufficient power and the cojones to get the project underway (it’s not Donald Trump).

  159. Anonymous [AKA "Horniron"] says: • Website

    MAGA. What more can I say?

  160. @RadicalCenter

    I cannot emphasize adequately the most important truth what you have written here.

    Your quote.
    Likewise, my government appears to have armed and aided ISIS along with other Islamists in Syria.

    What happened here was that that they accepted all that, but they betrayed US and did refuse all orders from US.

    Naturally the MSM refuse to talk about this detail.
    (I do have to congratulate you for seeing through things and events.
    You are showing high intelligence.

    p.s. Please can you help me?
    Can you tell me how you make those brown squares with quotes?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  161. Bill Jones says: • Website

    What’s wrong with Eastern Europe?


    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  162. szopen says:

    Do you really believe the numbers that 3 millions Poles on top of 3 millions Polish Jews were killed during WWII?

    Yes and no.

    Immedietely after war the number were very fuzzy and they were not properly investigated. However, since the 1990 the historians underwent very serious effort and estimated Polish losses. Of course, still there are high discrepancies and all number are estimations, as no one really knows. However, the official estimations (plural, since some historians still argue over the correct methods) right now are between 2-3 millions ethnic Poles, 2-3 millions Polish Jews and about 1-2 million “other Polish citizen”, said number including Belarussians, Ukrainians, etc etc and, yes, Polish Germans too.

    The numbers included Poles shot by Germans in operation Tannnberg (about 20.000 victims) and then different “intelligenzaktions” (you know, were Germans rounded up people from the lists in given region, who were guilty of being intellectuals, teacher, known from participating in pre-war patriotic organisations) and shot them – total 50 thousands victims shot, 50 thousand sent to concentration camps, almost all of them died there.

    Probably you should have heard at least about shooting professors from universities in Lwów and Kraków. Then there are hundreds of villages “pacified” during German occupation, where “pacification” could be razing village to the ground, or simply shooting random men. The total number is 800 to 900 “pacified” villages, and number of victims ranges from 60 to over thousand (hard to say how many villages were “pacified” in “Kresy”), plus thousands of villages and small towns which also faced random shootings of smaller scale. In a typical pacification (as in Skłoby) German army surrounded the village, arrested all men (some shot in place) and burned the place to the ground. In case of Skłby 265 shot victims are known by name. Then there are people who died en route during expulsions from Poznań area, from Zamojszczyzna etc (e.g. the children separated from families; we know for sure tha many of them died in concentration camps, but we don’t know how many; some migh survived, as they were kidnapped to be raised as proper Germans and only few ever returned to their families) – in total 2.5 million of Poles were expelled from their houses, and similarnumber was kidnapped to a slave labour in Germany (initially some actually were volunteers, but because there were too few volunteers, Germans started to just round people in the street. My grandfather was slave labourer in Germany.).

    Then random people shot in retaliation for actions of underground and so on. In Warsaw alone the number of people shot in retaliation is about 32.000. Then there is murdering of 16.000 of feeble-minded and disabled patients (akcja T4).

    Your claims that shooting all men in retribution for various actions of underground, who just happen to operate in the neighbourhood, or taking random people and shooting dozen of them was legal does not make them any less crime in my eye.

    I would also add that in German plans, there was no idea of taking half of French territory and deporting the natives.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @utu
  163. szopen says:

    I already debated denialists many times, including on I wasted many hours of my life and at the very end they have not ceded a single point, despite being shown even quite trivial mistakes. That’s why such people are called denialists, because they just thrown arguments at you and refuse to admit if those arguments were wrong, and when you are finally tired of writing, they announce their victory.
    I have read CODOH many times. It containts absolute garbage.

  164. szopen says:

    The debate is set when you write “communist Poles” and “anti science Jews”, “scam” and “graud” and then saying “no name calling”, while posting a link to a garbage site. It’s useless to waste your life debating fanatics.

  165. @Bill Jones

    Well …… my answer would be “plenty, but less than is wrong with Western Europe and North America these days.”

  166. @szopen

    Even under his own theory of Germanic racial superiority, Hitler’s actions were illogical and, obviously, massively and predictably counterproductive for the Germans and the rest of white Europe.

    Merely by observing the appearance, history, conduct, and intelligence of Slavs and Germans versus most of the rest of the world, it should have been obvious that Slavs were hardly “untermenschen.” Then and now, the Slavs were, in fact, genetically and culturally brothers to the Germanic peoples. (Extra irony: Hitler’s home country, Austria, was then and is now noticeably part Slavic, to an extent that Germany is not, as confirmed nowadays by genetic test data. Hitler himself could well have been part Slavic.)

    Moreover, as many have said before me, if the nazis simply had treated the Slavs decently rather than brutalizing them and deriding them as inferior, all of Eastern Europe and even western Russia could have fallen into Germany’s hands in jubilant escape from soviet communism. Imagine a Slavic army mobilized voluntarily to defeat the soviets, instead of the Slavs wisely deciding to resist the nazis because they were just as heartless and brutal to Slavs as the soviets.

    Severely handicapped people could have been cared for and allowed to live out their lives. Eugenic measures could have focused instead on contraception and eventually genetic engineering, not killing human beings already here.

    Slavs could have been allowed to keep their cultures and languages and flags, with the german flag alongside and the next generation required to learn German in school.

    But that wasn’t at all Hitler’s viewpoint, which was one big reason he and his unnecessary cruelty were such an irremediable disaster for Germanic people and all European peoples. Ironically, Hitler did more to destroy and demoralize white people than almost anyone else.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @szopen
  167. szopen says:

    While I agree with your sentiment, I have to add that it is not necessarily true that different treatment of Slavs in Russia (after 1941) would add much to Hitler’s war machine capability. Armies have to be fed, clothed, armed. Food, ammo and equipment would have to be sent to them instead of to German armies and treating Poles, Belarussians, Ukrainians etc with decency would mean less food would be squeezed out of us – so more peasants would survive, they would be better fed, but less stuff would go to the Germany army. So there would be gains, but also there would be minuses.

    Already a a million Russians fought for Hitler, BTW.

    Allying with Poland is quite a different thing, as it would move the starting line of offensive hundreds km to the east; less partisan activity and so on. However, it would be really hard to achieve. Hitler initially did propose alliance to Poland (going as far as one of his ministers, forgot which one, suggesting “why you want to keep Gdańsk? Odessa is also a nice port…”), and Poland, being as always fixated on self-respect, honor, keeping the word etc refused the offer. Also, some things were really hard to predict in 1939.

    • Replies: @Lex
  168. Lex says:

    Hitler wasn’t exactly trustworthy partner to negotiate with especially for a nation that lived in what Germans considered their lebensraum.

    • Replies: @utu
  169. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    As a contrast, I grew up in a 99+% white European country. Since before Primary School I was spending all of my days outside, completely unsupervised. Me and the other kids used to go and play up to, say, five kilometres from our homes without any issues. A bit later, when we got “proper” bicycles that range increased to over 20 kilometres.

    – Never did my parents warn me to avoid certain areas or worry about my long and unpredictable disappearances.

    – Neither me or my friends (AFAIK) ever experienced any issues with random adults. We had fights with other kids but that’s all.

    – This was a big city with millions of inhabitants. It wasn’t some small environment where safety comes from everyone knowing each-other.

    – The word on the kid-street was that gypsies should be avoided. Not sure if that rumour originated from some parents or bad experiences but it’s interesting that the only potential “danger” was coming from a tiny number of non-whites.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @peterAUS
  170. peterAUS says:

    Sounds familiar.

    Having said that, am I mistaken in assuming that police/security services in that country of yours weren’t exactly a lot into “human rights”?

    For example:
    You could get beaten up on the street by a cop on a beat and you could do nothing about it.
    You could get arrested by cops, taken to a station and beaten, then released with no charges pressed and you could do nothing about it.
    That’s easy part. Regular police stuff.
    Harder stuff now.
    You spout something against regime in public and you get picked up by “guys” at 2 A.M. From then on depends on a lot of things, most of them totally out of your control. From some beating up to, through a couple of months in prison to a serious time on trumped up charges re “national security”.

    BTW, people in “the know” were advising their kids about “not taking sweets from strangers” and hel no getting into any car with friendly people. The best advice was always: “Don’t speak with strangers”.

    And, maybe you lived in a nice city.
    I…guess….that in any city/town there was a part of city/town where smart people were advised not to venture after dark.

    Overall, I guess you are correct about not worrying too much about being robbed/beaten up in a street.
    At the other hand one had to be VERY careful when interacting with cops. And, the most important, all was fine as long as one kept his mouth shut.

    So….all has pluses/minuses I guess.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  171. utu says:

    Czechoslovakia was forced to negotiate with Hitler and in the long run it was the best thing they ever did. Their population was spared the most ravages of the war. Poland should have make a deal with Hitler, though it was impossible because any faction of government that would have tried to negotiate with Hitler would be violently overthrown by pro-war British inspired faction. This what exactly has happened in Yugoslavia in 1941 where after making a deal with Germany the government was overthrown and the war was forced on Yugoslavia. Czechs were lucky.

  172. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Nah, it wasn’t a police state. Just a white city in a white country.

  173. utu says:

    Thank you for your response. Nevertheless I do not think that it has been proven anywhere that Poland suffered 2-3 millions of losses among its gentile (we are not talking about Jews here) population. How many, I do not know. But I would put a cap of 1 million to start with that would include also German, Ukrainian, Belorussian minorities. There are methodological problem how to count the dead. Who is Polish and who is not? We should remember that circa 400 thousand Polish citizens volunteered or were forced to serve in Wehrmacht and many of them perished. To which category they belong: German dead or Polish dead? Victims or perpetrators?

    I still believe that the number of dead in willful executions and pacifications will not exceed 50k.

    legal does not make them any less crime in my eye – absolutely I agree. If one is dealing with a madman one must be more careful to not provoke him. The planners and instigators of futile in most cases resistance actions that provoked German retributions knew they were dealing with the madman and apparently did not care.

    • Replies: @szopen
  174. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Click on the button “Agree / Disagree / Etc.” and then click on “Follow Commenter.”

    I just did that in order to follow YOU 🙂

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  175. I think Feffer has a point in terms that neo-liberalism have not delivered but like most liberals he has simply no answers other than higher taxation, more education and an enlarge welfare regime. Sweden has played this game since 1950s. Since the early 1990s they have been forced to cut down the socialist welfare regime. Simply, the socialist welfare state can only exists in state-capitalist homogeneous high-trust societies with an exceptional level of good governance. Globalization in terms of free trade, open borders and movable capital combined with post-marxist/post-liberal ideologies such as feminism, multiculturalism, progressive education, crony capitalism, anti-culture, egalitarianism, post-modernism and erratic gramscian ideals turns countries into third world slums. When Sweden moved from a state-capitalist homogeneous high-trust society driven by good governance to a nihilistic self-loathing post-liberal open border society they burned their socialist foundation to the ground.

    It is sort of hilarious that Feffer and the rest of them believe that they will win victories in the long-run being disingenuous. Eastern European countries just like the “alt-right” may sometimes be Austrian-Libertarian on economics but they are not applauded by the Koch brothers or any other members of the billionaire class. In fact, the Koch brothers left Austrian economics in the 1980s for the Cato institute left-libertarianism and pro-business agenda.

    The New Right seem to have learned from the mistakes of the old aristocratic class and from the 19th century capitalist class. They take a common sense approach to politics combining different ideologies and knowledge from a number of fields. This is why people like Feffer and the Nation are defenceless. I read regularly far-left publications like the Nation, Jacobin Magazine, Mondoweiss and Counter Punch and bunch of other “far-left” magazines. Their only real insight is basically the “inequality” narrative. They have some insights on American Foreign policy, colonization, Israel and Russia but that it all.

    The vast majority of the left do not care about social inequality. For them politics is about feminism, multiculturalism, identity politics, LGBT, environmentalism, internationalism and other insane post-marxist and post-liberal ideologies. For them the European Union, Barack Obama, Israel, New York Times, Masha Gessen, Anne Applebaum and Washington Post saints. They hate Eastern Europe and in particularly Russia because they are told to that it is “cool” to do so. Recently, this crazed leftist has turned Lindsay Graham, John McCain and even George W. Bush into heroes because they hate Trump. In fact, they have no problem with neo-conservatism as there is little difference between neo-conservatism and contemporary liberalism. Yes, many of them like Bernie Sanders but most of them see no major difference between him and Clinton as there is little. They go with the first guy because he is “cool” and sounds radical while Clinton sounds “boring” and something from the past.

    The left is a total joke. Their core constituency is white college kids, the upper middle class, rich people, coloured people and government workers. The truth is that they are losing most political battles and will continue to lose political battles. In fact, Donald Trump, with all his major flaws will be re-elected. Not because he is some genius but because he oppose at least parts of the globalist agenda.

    And no…

    Eastern Europe is not magically going to turn into left-wing utopia and the harder the European Union and United States push the further they are pushed towards Russia. If these liberal had some kind of function brain they would understand that if they want the Eastern European nations onboard their globalist agenda they have to offer them some big money and I do not talk about a few handout but some serious dough but it will not happen because United States and Western Europe have no more dough to give.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Miro23
  176. utu says:

    As far as Sweden is concerned you mix the cause and the effect. Opening Sweden to immigrants was a stratagem to destroy its third way socio-economy model. You are correct that this model could work because of high trust mono-cultural and mono-ethnic society of Sweden. This model was quite successful and thus and it was very hated by neoliberals who used the left wing useful idiots to destroy it.

    • Replies: @Wilhelm Johnson
  177. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilhelm Johnson

    Simply, the socialist welfare state can only exists in state-capitalist homogeneous high-trust societies with an exceptional level of good governance.

    Absolutely. I’d also ad a reasonable average IQ requirement since a system like that needs decent productivity (and it’s kind of essential for good governance and low corruption levels). I’m only mentioning it because a large influx of low IQ strangers inevitably destroys the whole structure – especially in the age of automation when the machines are taking away their jobs first.

    • Replies: @Wilhelm Johnson
  178. Miro23 says:
    @Wilhelm Johnson

    Simply, the socialist welfare state can only exists in state-capitalist homogeneous high-trust societies with an exceptional level of good governance. Globalization in terms of free trade, open borders and movable capital combined with post-marxist/post-liberal ideologies such as feminism, multiculturalism, progressive education, crony capitalism, anti-culture, egalitarianism, post-modernism and erratic gramscian ideals turns countries into third world slums. When Sweden moved from a state-capitalist homogeneous high-trust society driven by good governance to a nihilistic self-loathing post-liberal open border society they burned their socialist foundation to the ground.

    Exactly, nihilist self-loathing post-liberal open border societies destroy any chance of real socialism. They’re the direct route to ethnic conflict and elite building economic polarization.

  179. szopen says:

    I still believe that the number of dead in willful executions and pacifications will not exceed 50k.

    Then you are wrong, because there are lists of people known by name shot in intelligenzaktions (carried in 1939/start of 1940) which already have larger number of victims (two times and half larger if you include those, who were not shot immedietely, but perished later in camps). And the shootings have not ended in 1939.

    As for madman, sure, but I know one case from September 1939, when Wehrmaht shot his own officer (the German was standing in the window, shaving, waved to the German unit, they shot him) and then executed several Poles “in retaliation”.

    Thousands were also shot because they helped hiding Jews (including at least one village razed to the ground) or because theyhave not met “contibutions” quotas.

    • Replies: @utu
  180. utu says:

    are lists of people known by name shot in intelligenzaktions

    The list of those known by names does not exceed 20% of the official number. And the official number is 60-100k. The official number are always upward extrapolations. How many arrested in intelligenzaktions or AB Aktion survived? Good example are the professors of the Jagiellonian University. It is easy to find that 184 were arrested and sent to KL. But even Wiki tells us that 101 of them were released from Sachsenhausen in Feb. 1941. It does not mean though that 83 died. But Wiki does tell us how many actually died. I read somewhere else that only 13 died in the camps. I suspect that most Poles including the educated ones believe that all professors were killed.

    My point is that a lot numbers that came from the victim states of the III Reich like Poland and Russia after the WWII are greatly exaggerated. They remain so because the numbers were never questioned or scrutinized. Nobody really cared to scrutinize the clams.

    I have started this discussion because of your statement

    that Germans had no problems with shooting hundreds of thousands Poles

    which I insist is untenable. I have no doubts that German occupation of Poland was awful but at the same time I believe that it was not as awful as Poles like to paint it. And when it comes to numbers Poles just like Russians and Jews are very sloppy.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @szopen
  181. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    which I insist is untenable. I have no doubts that German occupation of Poland was awful but at the same time I believe that it was not as awful as Poles like to paint it

    In other words, the Germans don’t want to pay up and are good at excuses to avoid doing so. At least the Teuton uses nicer words than the Russian, yes? But they still are bitter about Grunwald inside their hearts.

  182. Bill Jones says: • Website

    To have Ethnic Violence, you need real ethnics, which the West has managed to keep under control, until now.

  183. szopen says:

    The official number are always upward extrapolations.

    Why assume so in that case? For example, the number of victims for AB-aktion (6500, half intelligentsia) is based on German reports. Do you think Germans would exxagerate the number of people they shot?

    How many arrested in intelligenzaktions or AB Aktion survived?

    No idea, but wiki tells about 50 thousands SHOT out of 100 thousand arrested.
    It’s true that it’s hard to tell exactly how many people died. For example, in executions in Piaśnica historian gave number of 12-14 thousand people murdered (most of them Poles, but also some German patients killed in euthanasia actions etc). Only 852 were identified by name. 26 mass graves were investigated, in two of them full bodies were found (352 bodies), in all other only parts of the bodies and personal items. Witnesses tell about 35 mass graves, but since 1946 only one additional mass grave was found.

    In Palmiry, historians found 24 mass graves, exhumated 1700 bodies, and 1056 are known by name. In Rudzki Most (were Poles were shot because of fire in barn of local German – a German died in fire – Poles were accused of setting the fire, despite no proof this happened), in 6 mass graves 237 bodies were found, of which 205 were identified (and all arrested were shot).

    . It is easy to find that 184 were arrested and sent to KL. But even Wiki tells us that 101 of them were released from Sachsenhausen in Feb. 1941. It does not mean though that 83 died. But Wiki does tell us how many actually died. I read somewhere else that only 13 died in the camps. I suspect that most Poles including the educated ones believe that all professors were killed.

    True. However: from Stanisławów, from 250 arrested, all except one who escaped from the transport, were shot.

    That’s actuall quite interesting. IPN right now is creating a base including 4,5 million names, including all forms of repression; I included names of my family, and I found one name was doubled, out of five names, one was killed in service of Polish army, others survived. From my wife’s name, 2 killed out of 16 names, four nmes doubled. Out of my mother’s name, 16 doubled names out of 70 (initially thought 26 based on names only, but verified then that despite the same first name-last name had different birthsday and other details like place of birthsday), three killed. Then entered some random names: 49 names, 7 doubled, 3 killed (incl one victim of war, rest “deported”, “slave labourer” “prisoner of war” or “arrested”).

    So, in total I checked 140 names, 28 should be removed from the base as doubles, nine killed of which 2 were killed as direct result of war, rest executed, i.e. 6.4% killed, 5% as result of execution or died in concentration camp. Extrapolating from the number of 4.5 milion of names, that would give 288 000 killed. The base is supposedly still “under construction” and relies mostly on data entered by families; I had no idea it existed til now.

    • Replies: @utu
  184. @utu

    It was not neo-liberals that pushed for open borders and neo-liberalism although they did contribute. Everything from deregulation of the capital markets, charter schools and open borders has been partly pushed by the Social Democratic Party. When it comes to immigration the first party that argued for an open border policy was the communist Left Party. Sweden actually practised old-fashion state capitalism until the 1980s when they shifted toward neo-liberalism but this were done under the guidance of the Social Democratic Party as they couldn’t sustain the very increasing welfare state – that actually were massively increased in the 1970s to drive unemployment down.

    I prefer the term post-liberalism rather than neo-liberalism. Neo-liberals (think; Cato for a ideological reference) has nothing to do with free market economy but rather enrich the very wealthy. For example, Swedish government (on demand from the Social Democratic Party) has outsourced an increasing number of welfare services to private corporations. Often these corporations are owned or part-owned by politician’s friends and family. The old right-libertarianism is just as hated in United States by the corporations as it is hated in Sweden by the corporations and the rest of the elite institutions. A free market is a horrible thing for major corporations. This is why they buy politicians so they can skew the market so it benefits them.

  185. @Anonymous

    It is already happening in Sweden. Firstly, schools (which are horrible) in Sweden hold a certain of difficulty-level depending on the pupils but how do you manage a school when you have at least a million migrants that on average are not able to pass school work? Secondly, Sweden has few low-paid jobs just like Switzerland. Most jobs are mid-level to high-skilled and even those jobs are difficult to get. The underunemployment level (which is enormous) is an un-discussed and taboo topic in Sweden. Currently, the automatization is rapidly killing jobs. For example, fast-foods joints and retail are now rapidly replacing staff with self-pay automats. More so, even robotic lawn movers are just a decade from being very affordable and very functional just as computers. The bourgeoisie (including the Social Democrats) actually believe that solution for the massive unemployment/underunemployment is more state-funded McJobs in either the private industry or for the government. As this is going to happen? All of these projects have failed.

    The funny part in this is that the Centre Party, that basically had board member of Cato Institute write their political program is now going great among “socialists”. Why? Well, almost the entire socialist electoral base consists of poor migrants (if they do vote which most of them do not), the urban upper-middle and kids still in college. The truth is that the entire socialist regime with post-liberals and post-Marxists. For them the most important issue is open borders, LGBT, multiculturalism, feminism and internationalism and make the European Union into a federal state. For these people “social class” do not exist. It is utterly insane but that is the Swedish Left.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  186. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilhelm Johnson

    Yeah, Sweden is well on its way to national suicide. The vibrants are rioting now – from the warm incubator of Swedish Safety Net – what do you think will happen when the money dries up?

    • Replies: @Wilhelm Johnson
  187. utu says:

    It is interesting about the database being created. Will it help to get closer to the true numbers? Corrections sometimes are possible like this one in 2000:

    Death Miscount Etched Into History

    Korean War Veterans Memorial, where it is carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the war that began 50 years ago today.

    For decades, the number has been enshrined in almanacs, histories, memories and monuments, cited as proof of the war’s cost. But nearly one-third of those deaths–17,730–occurred elsewhere, often half a world away from Korea, in places ranging from the United States to Germany. The actual number of Americans killed in the Korean War theater of operations is 36,516, the Pentagon acknowledged this month.

    I doubt it will be possible in Poland and other countries.

  188. @Anonymous

    The money is about to dry up. You see it both in the data and how politicians and media act. Today came six out eight parties in Sweden to an agreement to cut threshold for retirement from 65 years to 66 years. A year may not sound much they raised the limit for early retirement (not confused with disability pensions) from 61 to 63 years. Only the nationalist Swedish Democrats and the communist Left Party but they were not even invited to be part of the discussions. This has not even been a discussion on national TV and media have done their best to not write about it. Why now?

    Money is rapidly drying up. Our GDP growth per capita is less than one percent and it is declining. This is of course never even discussed in the media. In fact – we were told yesterday all over the news that Sweden “economy” (whatever that means) has never been better and all companies are in desperate need for workers. The official unemployment statistics is 5.8 percent that they count people that just work a day a week. The real unemployment rate in Sweden is closer to 15 percent. Looking at underunemployment (people that work few hours and/or work in a profession below their educational and skill level) may be as much as 25 percent or more.

    In Stockholm municipality 56.4 percent of the working-age population have an income below 320,000 SEK a year or 38,000 U.S dollars. That is below the entry-level salary of a teacher in the city. Teachers are severely underpaid although salaries are increasing at least in Stockholm until they recently sat a cap and started to hire non-educated teachers as they come cheaper. Note that Stockholm municipalities are one of the wealthiest municipalities in Sweden. You see this pattern all around Sweden. You either have upper-middle class job or you struggle. The middle class jobs (50,000 dollars a year) are not nearly enough to cover the rising number of people. The correlation between education and income is rapidly declining.

    Within a time-frame of 10 years ALL municipalities in the Sweden will have to raise their taxes with at least two percent to keep the municipal services at the same standard. It may not sound horrible but the Swedish municipal (also includes the tax to the counties) tax rate is on average 32.12 percent and all people regardless of income will pay this percentage. The tax limit is somewhere round 35 percent and then growth will fall. This is just an average but more than half of the municipalities will need some serious contributions from government as they will not raise taxes beyond 35 percent. Municipalities will be forced to cut welfare expenditures on a significant scale. Politicians will most likely cut elderly care to as little as 3,800 dollars a year – that is basically saying to people that they will not receive any elderly care at all. Thus, if you do not have a private retirement fund or if you are poor you get nothing. Still, everybody will pay more taxes.

    This is basically what we will see within a ten year time-frame until the welfare state is gone. The tax rate will stay around 50 percent of GDP. This may take 20 years or 50 years but it will happen but the welfare state will be abolished in the end. People ask. How much can we blame on immigration? At least 1/3 of the costs care caused by the immigration policy and if the Socialist regime in the 1960s had not introduced “multiculturalism” the Swedish welfare systems would be mostly intact at the current standard for an unforeseeable future. It is somewhat funny that the Socialist destroys the welfare state they built but that is what they want. A financial crisis is expected in 2018. Everything above will be wrong and it will be much worse although not as bad as Greece but you get the point.

    The 2018 election will be interesting. All the polls tells us that the Swedish Democrats are in decline (they would still increase in the 2018 election but not much) but that seems to be a lie. I would guess they receive somewhere round 25 percent. It will be a major blow to the elites and we will see even more polarization. In the end I think Swedes will do like they did in the 19th century when the elites ruined the country. They will simply pack their bags and move to another country. Australia seems nice. Sweden? Well, it will revert into a third world state but that is what the elites in Sweden want and has been working towards since the end of WW2.

    So kids, get that free engineering degree or MD degree and buy a one-way ticket to Australia.

  189. utu says:

    There was no collaborationist avenue available to a Pole that would allow him evade the fate the Nazis had in store for him.

    Nonsense! It was Polish government’s choice. If Polish government did not evacuate itself to Rumania and Hungary and then France in September 1939 and stay in Poland to sign the surrender treaty the situation would be entirely different. It would be possible that a similar zone to Vichy in France would be created in Poland under Polish administration where even Jews would be relatively safe. Polish leadership is to large extent responsible for the horrors of occupation in Poland. And if Poland wanted to continue resistance from France and later England they could assign a minor general to lead it to preserve the honor of Poland just a s De Gaulle did it for France. De Gaulle was a minor general. He became brigadier-general only on 1 June 1940. All high ranking officers remained loyal to Petain.

    The persistence of myths that only serve to cover up mistakes and ineptitude is amazing. In the case of Polish leadership these were not just mistakes and ineptitude. It was criminal.

  190. Anonymous [AKA "Jeanne Belle"] says:

    Yeah !

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