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Karen Greenberg: Retiring the Statue of Liberty
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I remember him (barely) as a thin, bald, little old man with a white mustache and a cane. As I write this, I’m looking at a photo of him in 1947, holding the hand of little Tommy Engelhardt who had just turned three that very July day. They’re on a street somewhere in Brooklyn, New York, Tommy in shorts and a T-shirt and his grandfather, Moore (that wasn’t his original name), wearing a suit and tie. It’s hard to imagine him as the young Jewish boy from the Austro-Hungarian Empire who ran away from home — somewhere in modern-day Poland — after reportedly “pulling the Rabbi’s whiskers” in a dispute. By his own account, he spent two desperate years working to scrape together the money for passage alone in the steerage of a ship from Hamburg to America and finally made it here in the early 1890s with the equivalent of a 50-cent piece in his pocket. And he was a lucky man.

He died when I was five, but sometimes I try to imagine him arriving in New York harbor and seeing that lady, the Statue of Liberty, for the first time. A century and a quarter later, I still wonder what, at that moment, he dreamed of when it came to the country that would indeed welcome him (though his life, in those early years, was — at least as family stories had it — anything but easy). How could I imagine myself as I am now (a bald little old man with a white mustache) without him, without that moment? So today, as Donald Trump does his best to keep every imaginable modern version of my grandfather out of this country and eject so many of those “Moores” now living here, I wonder about the grim cruelty of our world.

I wrote this about my grandfather early last year and, of course, it still applies:

“In other words, my grandfather was a kind of nineteenth-century equivalent of a DACA kid (though without even parents to bring him here). Like so many other immigrants of that era, he made it to the United States from a shithole part of Europe… and he was lucky… A few decades later, Jews like him, or Slavs, or Italians, or Asians of any variety — the Haitians, Salvadorans, and Nigerians of that era — would essentially be put under the early twentieth-century equivalent of Donald Trump’s ‘Muslim ban’ and largely kept by law from entering the country. In those days, the analog to Trump’s bitter complaints about Muslims and others of color was: Europe was ‘making the United States a dumping ground for its undesirable nationals.’ (So said Henry Fairfield Osborn, the then-president of New York’s American Museum of Natural History, in 1925.)”

So, as I focused on today’s chilling piece by TomDispatch regular Karen Greenberg on the Trumpian assault on citizenship and so much else, I couldn’t help thinking about those 16-year-olds of our moment so desperately trying to make it to this country across our southern border, often alone, and just how they’ve been “welcomed,” as well as about the future Tom Engelhardts who will never come to be, at least not here in this — as Greenberg points out — increasingly walled-in and xenophobic land.

(Republished from TomDispatch by permission of author or representative)
• Category: History, Ideology • Tags: Donald Trump, Immigration 
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  1. Wilson says:

    Your grandfather also couldn’t have immigrated if there was no America. He didn’t save up his money for a boat ticket to Guatemala.

  2. Thinker says:

    Karen Greenberg is right, America doesn’t deserve the Statue of Liberty, much less that plaque underneath that contains that glorious sonnet from Emma Lazarus. It’s time to take them both down, wrap them up and send them on to Israel, the real land of the free, beacon of hope for all the world’s “wretched refuse”, especially now that the Pence administration is Making Israel Great Again.

    • Agree: Bloody Bill, mark green
    • LOL: WHAT
    • Replies: @Olorin
  3. Right, we should welcome people who think the idea of America, the Bill of Rights and The Constitution are for shit and needs to be transformed into the alien by their communist ideals.

    What’s that word now? Ah yes, “transfection.”

    “The original meaning of transfection was “infection by transformation”, i.e., introduction of genetic material, DNA or RNA, from a prokaryote-infecting virus or bacteriophage into cells, resulting in an infection. Because the term transformation had another sense in animal cell biology (a genetic change allowing long-term propagation in culture, or acquisition of properties typical of cancer cells), the term transfection acquired, for animal cells, its present meaning of a change in cell properties caused by introduction of DNA. ”

  4. ariadna says:

    I wonder why you don’t recommend the same immigration principles to Israel, especially with respect to ” those 16-year-olds of our moment so desperately who would want nothing more than to make it to THEIR OWN country across the illegal walls implanted on their land by the Jewish squatters.
    I also wonder, given your professed heart-melting empathy for the Hispanics trying to enter the US illegally, how many of them you have offered to sponsor.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  5. M_Young says:

    I can’t imagine a greater assault on citizenship than its dilution via mass immigration.

  6. The Statue of Liberty was a gift from France for eliminating slavery, which is why she has chains around her ankles. It has nothing to due with immigration. Many plaques were added years later, including that one about immigration. Even then, every immigrant who arrived at Ellis Island did so legally.

  7. TG says:

    The Statue of Liberty was a gift from the people of France to the people of the United States celebrating our political freedoms. It was defaced with a disgusting homage to cheap labor by wealthy oligarchs who were using an excessively high rate of immigration to force wages for the many down and profits for the few up.

    The majority were never in favor of this brutal cheap-labor policy, and fought greatly against it, but the elites had too much power. Sure, in 1924 there was finally a vote to limit immigration to more sensible levels – but it was largely ignored by the elites, and by the eve of the Wall Street crash immigration levels were still sky high.

    After 1929, immigration rates were held very low until about 1970. Illegal immigration was essentially zero. Once the depression ended, with a tight labor market wages shot up – and profits were held down! How terrible. So starting around 1970, the elites have progressively opened the doors to the overpopulated third world. Wages are going down, and rents and profits are going up. Duh.

    My grandparents came to the US from Sweden around 1910. They were good people. They were nonetheless part of a massive wave of immigrants that, collectively, created great misery amongst the working class of the United States. Only when the rate at which additional people like my grandparents were allowed to immigrate was reduced, did the average person start to do better.

    I see no reason to worship the Statue of Cheap Labor as God, that’s propaganda forced on us by the rich and powerful. If we allow the endless hordes of people fleeing the consequences of having more children than they can support to come here without limit, we will be overwhelmed and before too long we will be living like they do in Bangladesh.

    And where then will we go?

  8. Ahh here we go with another Jew and the ole blood and soil for me but open borders for thee. How about Israel open up its borders and allow the Muslim invaders that spread across Europe after the wars that were fought for Israel? How about Israel tear down the walls they built on the land they stole and allow the rightful owners of the land back in? Just another vile, disgusting Jew with more Jewish anti-white BS.

  9. Olorin says:

    that glorious sonnet from Emma Lazarus

    You mean turbo-rich .001% heiress Emma Lazarus, the gal who lived off her Old Knickerbocker sugar-slave/refining, booze distillery, banking, and real estate family money?

    Emma Lazarus, whose Tammany Hall-cahoots family’s cruelty to animals and bilking of the poor was noted in press of the time in the “swill milk” scandals that led to modern food safety legislation and was credited with killing 8,000 New York City babies a year?

    That Emma Lazarus?

    Bradish Johnson seems to have been as much a Northerner as a Southerner. He was born in Louisiana, but he attended Columbia College in New York, graduating in 1831.

    During his father’s lifetime, the businesses in New York operated under the name William M. Johnson & Sons. After his father’s death, Bradish went into partnership with Moses Lazarus under the name Johnson & Lazarus. When Lazarus retired, the business became Bradish Johnson & Sons (the name of a firm was apparently supposed to be an accurate representation of who was in it at that time). The New York Times reported that two different Johnson distilleries burned to the ground in a period of six months in 1854: Johnson & Lazarus at 244 Washington Street, about a block north of the future site of the World Trade Center, and Johnson & Sons at 16th Street. The Johnsons became known as innovators in the industry.

    For example, the Johnson & Lazarus refinery was reported to be the first firm to successfully make use of centrifugal machines in refining sugar. …Bradish Johnson’s name appears in a biography of the poet Emma Lazarus, whose poem The New Colossus (“…give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…”) is inscribed on the base of the Statue of Liberty. Emma Lazarus was the daughter of Bradish Johnson’s business partner, Moses Lazarus. The biographer speculates that Emma Lazarus might have visited the Johnson plantations in Louisiana, since some of her poems include empathetic descriptions of black slaves.

    In the same West Side neighborhood as Johnson’s distilleries there were other industries, including several chemical companies. These companies banded together at some point to form the Chemical Bank of New York, which was incorporated in 1844. Bradish Johnson was a founder of the bank and served on its original board. The name Chemical Bank has disappeared, but the bank went on to be very successful: in the 1990’s, it acquired Manufacturers Hanover Trust, then Chase Manhattan, and eventually J.P. Morgan, to become the behemoth J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.

    The huge Johnson distillery at 16th Street was the subject of a famous muckraking expose by Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper in 1858 [illustrated by Thomas Nast, “Milking a Sick Cow at the Johnson & Lazarus distillery”]. The distilleries in 19th century New York had to get rid of the tons of organic waste they generated, and their solution was to feed the still hot mash to hundreds of sick old cows and then sell the milk.

    The cows were crowded into filthy stables, and were so sick that some of them were reportedly held up by slings. They were cared for by old drunks, referred to sardonically as “milkmaids”. The milk, called “swill milk”, was sometimes cut with chalk or flour mixed with water. “Swill milk” was accused of being a major cause of infant mortality — it was sold from pushcarts all over the city, advertised as farm-fresh milk from New Jersey. In an editorial published at the height of the scandal, the New York Times described swill milk as a “bluish, white compound of true milk, pus and dirty water, which, on standing, deposits a yellowish, brown sediment that is manufactured in the stables attached to large distilleries by running the refuse distillery slops through the udders of dying cows and over the unwashed hands of milkers…” [sic].

    The Johnsons were sponsors of the Tammany Hall politician Alderman “Butcher Mike” Tuomey, who “became nationally known for blocking sanitary laws and regulations, most notably in the area of clean milk for children.” Tuomey defended the distillers vigorously throughout the scandal — in fact, he just happened to be put in charge of the Board of Health investigation.

    Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper staked out Bradish Johnson’s mansion at 21st and Broadway, and reported that in the midst of the investigation, Tuomey was observed making late night visits. Not surprisingly, the Tuomey committee’s investigation concluded that there was nothing deleterious about swill milk, but that the stables should nonetheless be cleaned up a little. “Butcher Mike” was thenceforth was known as “Swill Milk” Tuomey.


    Emma Lazarus grew up a non-observant Jew and sugar refinery heiress in an elite New York family. There is no hint that her ancestors were persecuted at any time in the New World, and in fact they came to North America not from Europe but from Brazil. Her father, who traced his Colonial pedigree to New Amsterdam in 1654, was a man of extravagant wealth who hobnobbed with the likes of Vanderbilts and Astors. He was a member of the exclusive Union Club and a founder of the prestigious Knickerbocker Club.

    The source of the family’s hereditary wealth is not entirely clear, but it is known that Moses Lazarus held a partnership in a Louisiana plantation and was thus an absentee slaveholder. It is recorded that “Magnolia Plantation” had a reputation for extreme cruelty – so much so that in 1863 many of its slaves begged to enlist in the Confederate Army. And yet Moses Lazarus remained connected to the plantation throughout the Civil War years. His related processing operation on 16th Street in New York City included a “distillery of spirits.” The swill that was a byproduct of this venture was fed to cattle at his adjoining dairy, an enterprise so unsanitary, according to an 1853 New York Times article entitled “Death in a Jug,” as to cause the deaths of eight thousand of the city’s children every year.

    Young Ms Lazarus, a denizen of uptown Manhattan, was well connected, both politically and socially. Her first cousin, Benjamin Cardozo, was a Supreme Court Justice. Her maternal uncle was the president of the New York Stock Exchange, and an uncle on her father’s side a renowned portrait artist. The beneficiary of an elite private education, Emma was lettered in music, arts, literature and languages. Her father paid for the publication of her early poetry, through which she met, at the tender age of nineteen, such luminaries as Ralph Waldo Emerson. Among her other intimate correspondents were Turgenev, Henry James, Robert Browning and James Russell Lowell, all among the most prestigious writers of her age.

    Emma’s life was one of ease. She enjoyed a summer cottage (that is, a mansion) in Newport Rhode Island with the rest of fashionable society, and though ethnically Jewish, moved in the highest circles of Christian blue blood. She never spent an instant of her life in poverty, or for that matter as one of the “teeming masses yearning to breathe free,” and her only connection to the working class was her oft repeated complaint over “the wretched quality of work performed by the vast majority of American mechanics and domestic servants.” Notwithstanding Obama’s wistful hagiography, Emma Lazarus certainly never championed “health care” or public housing. She enjoyed critical acclaim as a poet and author from her earliest years, and circulated among the great literary lights of her generation. And yet in spite of the fact that there was in the mid 19th century America no stigma attached to being Jewish, she harbored an abiding resentment based on her expressed conviction that personal slights she endured, real or imagined, were related to her ethnicity.

    Whether this self-alienation was the instigation for or the effect of her primary loyalty to her race is unclear. However the cause that attracted Emma’s most fervent devotion was not America, but the destiny of what she called “her own” Semite people, and more specifically a national home for world Jewry. Her expressed life’s work was to create a refuge for Eastern Europe’s oppressed Jews. She was the first to promote, as early as 1880, the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine. And in 1883 she formed “The Society for the Improvement and Colonization of East European Jews” for that purpose. The great bulk of her literary work was also ethnic in character, and her best known poem, prior to “The New Colossus” was, by startling coincidence, “The Banner of the Jew,” an anthem calling for the creation of an exclusively Jewish nation. Among her other works were “Songs of a Semite” and “Epistle to the Hebrews.” It is impossible to separate Emma’s seemingly altruistic sentiments, as now expressed on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, from her parochial vision for a secular Jewish State. America was for her, as for the “tempest tossed” people of her vision, at best a transitional home on the road to a New Jerusalem.

    In 1714, Spanish Inquisition refugee Luis Moses Gomez purchased 6,000 acres along the Hudson Highlands and built a fieldstone house by a stream known as “Jews Creek.”

    For 30 years, he and his sons ran a thriving fur trade from the house with three-foot thick walls. He was the first president of the Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue in New York City and family connections included the poet Emma Lazarus and Supreme Court Justice Benjamin Cardozo, who some consider to have been the real first Hispanic member of the US Supreme Court.

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
    , @kikz
    , @anon
  10. @ariadna

    While we’re at it, let’s address the Musulman squatters in Constantinople, Alexandria, Hippo, Damascus, and the rest of Assyria, Asia Minor, etc. They are the result of the worst immigration policies in history.

    The Crusades were a noble attempt at irredentism.

  11. This article is a joke, right? I mean, no one could seriously think that the US should be a “refuge” for all the billions of people being cranked out by the round-the-clock illiterate baby-makers of equatorial countries?

    A neighbor I know had a maid who had no education n didn’t speak English. The maid would bring her underaged daughter with her to help clean the house. Next thing I saw, both daughter and mother had babies at the same time, the teenage daughter preferring to clean house with her new baby in her arms rather than attend the free public school that our taxes so generously and naively provided, right alongside her mother who cleaned house with her own new baby in her arms.

    I wonder who paid for the maternity hospital?

    The Statue of Liberty should be renamed the Statute of Stupidity. Better yet, torn down.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @Trevor H.
  12. Anon[188] • Disclaimer says:

    Israel is welcoming of foreigners, let Ms. Karen Greenberg plant the statue of liberty on the beach at Tel Aviv. She is all for it, right?

  13. Trevor H. says:

    Ron should give you your own blog here.

    • Replies: @Olorin
  14. Lucy says:

    Oh, they were the Haitians, Salvadorians, and Nigerians of their time??
    Maybe they had to have a sponsor to go on Ellis Island, maybe they had to pass health exams, but they had no handouts. They staggered off their boat, knowing they would work hard and make something of themselves with no help from the US government. They would go to night school and learn English properly and, if necessary, learn a trade as fast as possible-
    The so-called melting pot was made up of Europeans and European Jews. Guess how high their IQs were and how unshakable their motivation was. Sorry to be so obvious, ,but it’s very tedious to hear comparisons between 3rd worlders arriving now and immigration up to the early “20th C.

  15. Christo says:

    There is this thing known “carrying capacity” and to preserve that “lifeboat ethics” , HAS to be followed or the whole place sinks. This so-called “melting -pot” HAD a carrying capacity.
    Just listen to the band play like on the Titanic and hope the cold kills you before drowning does.

  16. Corvinus says:
    @Sin City Milla

    “The Statue of Liberty should be renamed the Statute of Stupidity. Better yet, torn down.”

    You do realize that your ancestors came here as immigrants, right? Are you willing to tear down their legacy just to sate your appetite for destruction?

    • Replies: @Sin City Milla
  17. Dannyboy says:

    It’s a real shame Emma Lazarus, the Frankfurt School filth and all the rest of that 30’s shtetl trash didn’t end up in a ditch somewhere in Eastern Europe with the back of their skulls blown out instead of sliming up on American shores.

    Imagine a nation without all those grifters, carnies, rag collectors, ambulance chasers, race pimps, pornographers and abortionists etc…

    • Replies: @Bruce County
  18. Olorin says:
    @Trevor H.

    Sorry if I ran on, I’ve had that stuff in the drawer for awhile.

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
  19. kikz says:

    interesting post Olorin, thx. that boshevik commie screed slapped on the base of Liberty, most certainly didn’t include Gentiles.

    from the horse’s mouth.

    She said “…I have no thought, no passion, no desire, save for my own people.”

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
  20. @Dannyboy

    If there was place like that in America it may very well be Montana. But when the super volcano blows ??? Upper Michigan I guess.

  21. @Corvinus

    Oh puleaze. Not the old “we’re all a nation of immigrants” trope. That’s as relevant as saying we should abolish the borders because the sky is blue. ALL nations are ultimately nations of immigrants. So what? The point is we are here n we built this place, n they are not n they didn’t. If length of residency is important, which is arguable only if someone invaded n set up a few houses n statues overnight, whites have been in North America for 400 years. That’s 200 years longer than Bantus have been in South Africa, 200 years longer than Muslims have been in the Philippines, the same length of time that Russians have been in Siberia, n 150 years longer than any Spanish were in California before their eponymous inheritors, Mexico, laid claim to “Aztlan”. If you want to argue that no one in possession can ever have a prior right to keep out migrants, you may as well take the front door off your home. I’ll bet the farm that you haven’t done that.

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
    , @Corvinus
  22. Trevor H. says:

    Nope, we need to hear more of what you have to say. I guess I can start following you, or however it’s done on this site.

  23. Trevor H. says:

    “…I have no thought, no passion, no desire, save for my own people.”

    They are all like that, to coin a phrase.

  24. Trevor H. says:
    @Sin City Milla

    Corvy thinks that he’s cleverly sowing the seeds of discord among the Caucasians here. So far virtually everyone’s figured it out, but onward he trudges.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @anon
  25. Trevor H. says:
    @Sin City Milla

    Worth remembering is that the Statue was intended to commemorate Freedom, not Immigration. It got perverted later on, in part by the Emma Lazarus who’s mentioned in this comment thread, but mostly by people in positions of power, who hijacked the iconography for the express purpose of trashing this once-great nation.

    The Ruling Tribe considers itself safer when it has all the other people at one another’s throats. That explains most of the wreckage you see around you today.

  26. Corvinus says:
    @Sin City Milla

    “Oh puleaze. Not the old “we’re all a nation of immigrants” trope.”

    It’s not a trope, it’s an integral part of our nation’s history.

    “ALL nations are ultimately nations of immigrants.”

    Since when?

    “That’s 200 years longer than Bantus have been in South Africa…”

    Actually, the Zulus (Bantus) predate whites here.

  27. Corvinus says:
    @Trevor H.

    “Corvy thinks that he’s cleverly sowing the seeds of discord among the Caucasians here.”

    It’s an echo chamber here. Rarely is there discord here. However, you will need to get normies on your side if you want to make any headway. That requires propaganda on your part. So what have you been doing to ensure that this goal is met?

    “Worth remembering is that the Statue was intended to commemorate Freedom, not Immigration.”

    Actually, it was both–freedom and immigration.

  28. Actually, it was both–freedom and immigration.

    LOL nope.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  29. Cc says:

    Your grandfather would have slapped the shit out of you if read the garbage you scribbled.

  30. @Corvinus

    It’s not a trope, it’s an integral part of our nation’s history.

    The point is that it applies not just to our nation, but to all. That makes it a trope.

    “ALL nations are ultimately nations of immigrants.”

    Since when?

    Exactly my point. Since when? Asking the question shows its irrelevancy.

    “That’s 200 years longer than Bantus have been in South Africa…”

    Actually, the Zulus (Bantus) predate whites here.

    No, actually the Zulus, along with most of the other Bantu-speakers, post-date the arrival of Europeans in South Africa by almost a century. Read Washing of The Spears. Incidentally the Bantus eradicated the stone-age Bushmen who pre-dated both Bantus n Whites by millennia. While the Whites were no angels, the Bantus committed wholesale genocide against the Hottentot/Bushmen when they arrived. The idea that Whites are alien interlopers in South Africa is a myth.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  31. Corvinus says:
    @Sin City Milla

    “The point is that it applies not just to our nation, but to all. That makes it a trope.”

    Not to ALL nations. Some nations. China and Japan do not have rich histories in immigration.

    “Exactly my point. Since when? Asking the question shows its irrelevancy.”

    My point was rhetorical. Regardless, the United States compared to other nations was built generally by immigration.

    “No, actually the Zulus, along with most of the other Bantu-speakers, post-date the arrival of Europeans in South Africa by almost a century. Read Washing of The Spears. Incidentally the Bantus eradicated the stone-age Bushmen who pre-dated both Bantus n Whites by millennia. While the Whites were no angels, the Bantus committed wholesale genocide against the Hottentot/Bushmen when they arrived. The idea that Whites are alien interlopers in South Africa is a myth.”

    The Zulus arrived in South Africa in the 16th century. At the end of the 15th Century the Portuguese sailed past the Cape of Good Hope. However it was not until 1652 that the Europeans founded a colony in South Africa. And, indeed, both the Bantus and Dutch/English were no angels. But the Whites were interlopers as far as grabbing as much free stuff and gimmedats as possible.

  32. @Corvinus

    Actually, the Zulus (Bantus) predate whites here.

    In the part of British North America that became the U.S.? Not hardly!

    A chronology of emigration to the earliest British colony in North America may be found here:

    English colonists arrived in April of 1607, landing at the present site of Jamestown on May 14.

    As may be seen, the first 20 negroes did not arrive until 1620 (this date is sometimes reported as 1619 because the ‘old style’ New Year began on the ides of March, not January 1, and was moreover on the Julian rather than the Gregorian calendar). The black population did not increase rapidly. By 1647 the colony’s population was 15,000 English and only 300 negroes. It grew in rough proportion; by 1671, the colony’s population was 48,000, with 6,000 being indentured servants and only 2,000 negroes.

    Whites assuredly preceded blacks in British North America, and considerably outnumbered them in early Virginia. Inportation of negro slaves did not take place on a larger scale until long after the earliest settlement of English colonists.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  33. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Other peoples need to fix their own countries. Not everyone can live here.

    High wages and cheap land means happiness for the average person. Throttle immigration and kick out troublemakers and call out aliens with alien ideas for who and what they are every time.

    We should have reparations for the descendants of actual slaves-coupled with permanent separation. If they feel America is no good because of slavery, let them go, indeed, make it well worth their while.

    • Replies: @anon
  34. Corvinus says:

    “In the part of British North America that became the U.S.? Not hardly!”

    LOL. South Africa, NOT British North America. Never made that charge nor reference. Next time try to follow along more carefully.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
  35. Corvinus says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    “LOL nope.”

    Our liberty was derived by settlers and immigrants who forged a great land and became free from British tyranny. Per usual, you are in over your head here.

  36. anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    The more you know….

  37. anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Other peoples need to fix their own countries. Not everyone can live here.

    and whether they’re from mejico, sudan, somalia or the Middle East, they all have plenty of land of their own and there’s nothing stopping them from building great mejico, somalia etc unless they’re too stupid or too lazy, which isn’t our fault anyway

  38. anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    “That’s 200 years longer than Bantus have been in South Africa…”

    Actually, the Zulus (Bantus) predate whites here.

    where the Zulus there when the whites showed up ca 1500?

    if not, why not?

    how many tribes did the zulus exterminate on their way down from central Africa?

  39. anon[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Trevor H.

    Corvy thinks that he’s cleverly sowing the seeds of discord among the Caucasians here. So far virtually everyone’s figured it out, but onward he trudges.

    this is how you can tell he’s not one of us – they always overdo the statements like “our nation’s history”

    “Oh puleaze. Not the old “we’re all a nation of immigrants” trope.”

    It’s not a trope, it’s an integral part of our nation’s history.

  40. @Corvinus

    Nice try. You wrote that they “predate whites here.” Had you been referring to South Africa woukd you not have written that they predate whites there?

    “Here” is, for the overwhelming majority of readers of this forum, North America – not South Africa.

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