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Will Biden Listen to the Science?
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Former Vice President Joe Biden has not been officially declared the winner of the 2020 presidential election, but that has not stopped him from forming a coronavirus task force. The task force is composed of supporters of increased government control.

One idea Biden and his task force are considering is a four to six weeks nationwide lockdown. However, supporting a nationwide lockdown would violate Biden’s campaign pledge to “listen to the science.” The evidence regarding lockdowns is so overwhelming that even the World Health Organization (WHO) has been forced to admit the truth: lockdowns do more harm than good.

Lockdowns result in more instances of depression, suicide, domestic violence, and alcohol and drug abuse. Lockdowns also cause people to not go to hospitals or doctors’ offices, leading to people dying because they failed to obtain medical assistance in a timely manner.

Biden also is working with governors, mayors, and other state and local officials to create a de facto national mask mandate. Biden has also declared he will mandate mask wearing in all federal buildings and for people traveling interstate. A mask mandate for interstate travel could mean you will be required to wear a mask on airplanes, trains, and even when driving in your own car if you cross state lines.

Yet again, Biden is ignoring the science. In this case the science has demonstrated that most masks are ineffective at preventing the spread of a virus. Medical science also shows that wearing a mask for extended periods of time can cause health problems. For example, mask wearing interferes with proper breathing. Long-term mask wearing may also cause serious dental problems. Ironically, major victims of mask mandates include low-wage workers Biden and his fellow progressives claim to care so much about. Many of these workers are required to wear masks on the job.

Biden has also proposed raising an army of “culturally competent” contact tracers. According to the University of California, San Francisco, which is helping train that California’s contact tracers, contract tracers “….ask questions related to topics that can be sensitive, including health, work, living arrangements and food resources” in order to identify someone who should be quarantined. These contract tracers could also be able to enforce masks or other mandates — including a potential vaccine mandate — by helping ensure that those who refuse to comply are indefinitely quarantined.

Biden is not the only politician pushing authoritarian “solutions” to coronavirus. The government of Washington, DC is considering authorizing vaccinating of children without parental consent. This ignores the science that some people will have a negative reaction even to a generally safe vaccine, so individuals should make their own decision in consultation with their physician. This is especially important these days, as we are dealing with a vaccine that is being rushed into production for political reasons and that even the manufactures admit will have serious side effects.

Lockdowns, masks, and other authoritarian measures do little or nothing to promote health. Instead, they erode freedom and create their own health problems. Those who know the truth must make Joe Biden and other authoritarians listen to the true science. While those more at risk — such as the elderly and people with certain health problems — could be encouraged to take extra precautions, all Americans should be given back the liberty to make their own healthcare decisions.

(Republished from The Ron Paul Institute by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Science • Tags: Coronavirus, Disease 
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  1. macilrae says:

    … science has demonstrated that most masks are ineffective at preventing the spread of a virus.

    This is an instance were the assumed omniscience of physicians can be quite tedious – and I have huge respect for Dr. Paul.

    In fact scientific opinion has switched from saying that face masks are of little use to strongly advocating them. East Asians have long believed in masks and have worn them when they have, themselves, had a cold or flu to prevent others getting sick – a good level of social responsibility which we in the west would do well to emulate.

    Now Singapore has a highly efficient bureaucracy and therefore their published COVID19 data are more reliable than most countries. 59,000 Singaporians (pop 5.9M) have been infected but only 26 have died from COVID19. If you compare UK (pop 62M) with 1.3M infections and 52,000 deaths* you have to ask “What is the difference?” It seems to me that getting an answer to this question is of vital importance, Dr Paul!

    I have seen “younger population”, “less obesity”, “High fish diet – i.e. vitamin D” and “genetics” as suggested reasons but there is another possible reason. Face masks do not necessarily prevent infection but they can probably reduce its severity – because the viral dosage is reduced. Singaporians are as famous for obeying rules as British are for flouting them – they wear masks almost universally and nobody complains. When they do catch the bug they get a less severe case of COVID19.

    Until this can be confirmed we’d do well to assume it is true. Also, some of these ‘fashion statement’ masks have large pores and are next to useless – we need to wear ‘approved’ masks; preferably the general issue type or even the N95s.

    *one in a hundred Singaporians have so far been infected and about one in fifty Brits – not such a huge difference in infection rate but look at the mortality difference – about a thousand times higher.

    Medical science also shows that wearing a mask for extended periods of time can cause health problems. For example, mask wearing interferes with proper breathing. Long-term mask wearing may also cause serious dental problems

    To this I say I say “tough cheese”.

    • Disagree: BuelahMan
  2. GeeBee says:

    all Americans should be given back the liberty to make their own healthcare decisions

    Can anyone name one ‘liberty’ that has ever been given back to people once it has been taken away? I’m certainly not holding my breath (as it were). The year 2020 will surely go down as the one in which the idea of the United States of America being ‘the land of the free’ became the sickest of jokes.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  3. Keep in MIND that Wellcome IS EVIL???? https://wellcome.org/news/seven-vital-questions-about-rna-covid-19-vaccines-pfizer-biontech-moderna Youtube …. How is This a Thing? 11th of November 2020 ….. and Possible Leaked Roadmap for the Next Phase of the Agenda What do we know about Democrat plans being put through congress for Universal Basic Income and a Health Passport?Pfizer and Wellcome Trust have launched the Surveillance Partnership to Improve Data for Action on Antimicrobial Resistance …. Tracking software mass subservience / surveillance Also keep in mind “they” have had red/blue lists for years ie who is a trouble maker, who to take out first and if you are on the list you might be marked for a more deadly injection than other people.

  4. Notsofast says:

    i feel another lockdown coming when biden is declared our fearless leader, as pro trump protests will be quashed and blm and antifa disappear back into the woodwork.

  5. @macilrae

    Social responsibility is great.

    Enforced “social responsibility” is just imprisonment, with outdoor privileges if you behave.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  6. @GeeBee

    You wrote much of my comment before I could (or did).

    “Americans should be given back the liberty to make their own healthcare decisions.”

    Authoritarians, oligarchs and plutocrats never give anything.

    Previous generations of Americans fought hard to win and protect our rapidly vanishing freedoms.

    If we are ever to regain our lost liberties and rights we will have to take them back ourselves.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  7. @macilrae

    If your ‘approved’ face diaper is effective, then why on earth are you worried about someone else not wearing one? Do you believe ‘approved’ face diapers only work when everyone wears them?

    • Replies: @macilrae
    , @Sparkon
  8. onebornfree says: • Website

    Sorry, but the premise of this article is absolutely terrible.

    Whether or not Biden [or whomever] listens to “science” is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ron Paul should know better, fer chrissakes!

    This just in Dr. Paul:

    Mandatory lockdowns and mask mandates ARE ENTIRELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!

    No regards, onebornfree

    • Agree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  9. @macilrae

    you have to ask “What is the difference?” It seems to me that getting an answer to this question is of vital importance, Dr Paul!

    Well, one difference, I suspect, is that Singapore is recording deaths actually caused by COVID19, not deaths of everyone who tests positive, then has a heart attack or dies because their cancer treatment was cancelled. A second, likely, is they may only be recording people with symptoms.

    The testing itself has proven to be a joke. Elon Musk has 4 tests the same day, two are positive, two are negative. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/11/13/elon-musk-tests-positive-for-covid-19-and-negative/?sh=4ec46b0550ca

    A “personality” had both nostrils tested for COVID19 and guess what?
    https://toofab.com/2020/11/14/erykah-badu-positive-covid-19-one-nostril-negative-other/

    Masks? All masks become useless when they become damp. Wear a mask for any length of time and it will be damp. At that point you start to “recycle” virtually all of the crap you are exhaling. More people in the US died in the 1957-58 flu season, with half the population, than have died from COVID19.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  10. macilrae says:
    @Adam Smith

    If your ‘approved’ face diaper is effective, then why on earth are you worried about someone else not wearing one?

    Obviously because they may be infected; in which case they may infect others. And, is it OK if I care about them as well as myself? You too, even? If you read what I said you saw that I never claimed them to be 100% effective.

    Adam, please tell me how the thousand fold higher COVID mortality of UK (and US too) vs Singapore can otherwise be explained? And, before you claim the numbers are all a hoax, take a look in the ERs down in El Paso; or in Leeds.

    Do you believe ‘approved’ face diapers only work when everyone wears them?

    And, finally, the logical conclusion is that if everybody wore face diapers of an approved design then there would be a substantial reduction in infections.

  11. @onebornfree

    I am afraid I have to disagree, because the only thing Biden is listening to are the voices in his head.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  12. macilrae says:
    @Sollipsist

    It’s a point of view – there is a difference between having the freedom to do whatever you damn well like – and being restricted in what you do for the benefit of others because you have chosen to live in a society where that’s the general rule.
    I will say that “self-discipline” and “social responsibility” are huge issues today when people can be socially irresponsible with no consequences. Our grandfathers understood this better – and they largely made the world we now inhabit.

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
    , @Insouciant
  13. macilrae says:
    @Curmudgeon

    Well, one difference, I suspect, is that Singapore is recording deaths actually caused by COVID19, not deaths of everyone who tests positive, then has a heart attack or dies because their cancer treatment was cancelled. A second, likely, is they may only be recording people with symptoms

    .
    When you have a thousand-fold disparity it’s likely you’ll need to have multiple causes – but these as the main cause? I think not.

    A “personality” had both nostrils tested for COVID19 and guess what?

    With millions of people involved there will be hundreds of such stories!

    Masks? All masks become useless when they become damp. Wear a mask for any length of time and it will be damp.

    I’m not aware of any study that looks at the loss of efficiency with dampness but, speaking personally, I haven’t had one go damp on me yet. Virus is entailed in a blob of saliva or mucus and gets stopped when it hits a surface, damp or not. It’s when it dries out and the actual virus gets inhaled that you have to worry more but, even then, the dose is smaller than if you breathed in a blob of snot.

    • Replies: @Possumman
  14. Sparkon says:
    @Adam Smith

    The case from the Missouri, USA hair salon provides strong, real-world evidence that face masks are highly effective in preventing transmission of SAR-CoV-2, especially when all parties in close contact are wearing them.

    In brief, two stylists at the Springfield Great Clips salon had symptoms of COVID-19 (and later tested positive for SARS-CoV-2) but went into work anyway. The first stylist continued working for 8 days after experiencing symptoms, while her co-worker at the salon continued working for 5 days while symptomatic. Both stylists were providing mostly haircuts, facial trimming, and perms to 139 customers during that time.

    Fortunately for all involved, universal mask wearing was company policy at Great Clips, and also a city ordiance in Springfield, so everyone at the salon was wearing a mask, and nobody else at the salon got sick with COVID-19, or became infected with SARS-CoV-2. All the customers at the salon during that time who consented to testing produced negative results.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

    Costco announced recently that all customers in their stores must wear a face mask or face shield, no exceptions, even those customers with a medical condition, or doctor’s excuse. The announcement took effect on Nov. 16, and tightens the company’s previous policy by removing all exemptions, exceptions, or excuses. Costco said customers who cannot wear a face mask must wear a face shield.

    • Disagree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @roonaldo
  15. @GeeBee

    I mashed [Agree] already, but I’d modify your statement from 2020 to “the mid 1990s”. Actually, the Waco Massacre in 1993 should have been a clue that this is no longer the land of the free.

    However, 2020 has been a year of great acceleration of Totalitarianism.

    • LOL: Jim Christian
  16. @macilrae

    I really don’t care what your logic is, even if there were something to it. You have no right to make me wear a face diaper. I wear one for as little as possible at my job to keep the job I like, but everywhere else, it’s “tough cheese, make me!”. That goes for people just like you, Macilrae.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  17. Mark G. says:
    @macilrae

    And, is it OK if I care about them as well as myself? You too, even?

    It’s OK to care about others but not OK to tell them what health habits they need to follow for their own good. You wouldn’t want me to go through and look at your health habits and then tell you any bad ones I find are no longer allowed, would you?

    Adam, please tell me how the thousand fold higher COVID mortality of UK (and US too) vs Singapore can otherwise be explained?

    We’ve had a mask mandate here in Indiana where I live for months and still have had a recent big spike in both cases and deaths, a much higher percentage of deaths than Singapore. How do you explain the difference?

    And, finally, the logical conclusion is that if everybody wore face diapers of an approved design then there would be a substantial reduction in infections.

    In your first comment you were saying masks don’t cause a big reduction in infection rates but reduce the severity of the disease. Now you are saying masks substantially reduce infections. You are contradicting yourself.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  18. roonaldo says:
    @Sparkon

    The Missouri case you mention piqued my curiosity, so I just searched the internet a bit. The case was used by the CDC for the glowing media blitz, but things aren’t as cut and dried as they make out.

    Missouri salons were allowed to reopen the first week in May, and the salon was practicing preventive measures–wider spacing between chairs, staggered appointments, stringent disinfectant measures, and mask wearing.

    A June 22 article in cleveland.com says that only 46 of the potentially affected customers agreed to be tested. A May 25 article at foxnews.com mentions Eric Chase, who said not all stylists were wearing masks when he was there, and that he’d been contact-traced due to a covid-positive salon customer. I have a sneaking suspicion that the salon case was over-hyped.

    The Netherlands is interesting in that government investigators there said studies showed it inconclusive that mask-wearing helps and cautioned that it could give people a false sense of security, but recommended their use on public transport where people are crowded together. I recall an interesting epidemiological analysis of how New York’s subway system efficiently spread the virus (an early screw-up by public officials).

    Before the bug officially got to the U.S., reports of Asian mask use made me curious, and I found some interesting reports of lab tests of various mask types vs droplet spread, etc., and I wondered about real-world effectiveness. Masks were getting hard to find and I lacked confidence in public officials and institutions. I decided to focus on dietary measures to fortify the immune system.

    Whatever strategies you employ, I hope they work and that you remain healthy.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @Sparkon
  19. This article appeared on Global Research by a German psychologist who does raise valid points regarding individualism, autonomy, freedom of thought, common sense, government, The Great Reset with a Mind Control Agenda for domination by the psychopath class.

    While I respect people’s choices and rights to choose to be atheists or agnostic if that is their belief, I cannot help but be quite alarmed at the concept of the author that faith in God and the acknowledgement of the devil is what the authpr considers to be magical thinking, while overlooking the fact that the fact that the earth, the universerse, and any of us are even alive is an extroirinarily magical series of coincidences that defy all logic and rational explanation, and that there are even physical laws such as gravity and chemistry guiding the universe, earth, and life are without question magical. The fact that anything or anyone even exists is magical. So does the author believe that he, the earth, and the universe do not exist, because to acknowledge that they do entails a very high level of magical thinking of accepting something that has absolutely no logical or rational explantion at all. The author also states that God does not exist since children do not have innate knowledge of God, but civilizations throughout history have traditionally believed in God, or Gods and Godesses. This does not happen in most cases until after the age of reason when people begin questioning things like this. Children are not born knowing math either, but that does not mean that math is a false belief that is a sign of a delusional individual.

    Andrea Iravani
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/dispel-the-magical-belief-in-authority-confront-the-greed-for-power-and-violence-strengthen-community-feelings/5729560

  20. @roonaldo

    I fortify my immune system with plenty of tobacco, scotch and beef. It’s also my retirement plan, so it’s easy to maintain, heh… It’s working for me.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  21. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Curmudgeon

    “I am afraid I have to disagree, because the only thing Biden is listening to are the voices in his head.”

    1] It doesn’t matter if Biden, [or Trump] listen to “scientists”, or to voices in their heads, the W.E. F., or their grandmother.

    2] It doesn’t matter if “science” ” proves” that the virus [or any other virus, for that matter]. , actually exists and is dangerous ,or not. [Of course the virus hasn’t been proven to exist , by “scientists” or anyone else, but that’s a whole other story, so lets’ assume, for the sake of argument, that it does].

    3] It doesn’t matter whether or not lockdowns actually work and save lives. [They don’t, but lets’ assume, for the sake of argument, that they do].

    4] It doesn’t matter whether or not masks work and save lives. [They don’t, but lets’ assume, for the sake of argument, that they do].

    5] It doesn’t matter if a CV-19 vaccine works/saves lives, or not. [lets’ assume, for the sake of argument, that they do].

    Regardless, in the US, there is still no constitutional provision for the mandatory , nationwide enforcement of lockdowns, masks, social distancing, or vaccines, on the claims or whims of scientists, doctors, presidents,politicians, bureaucrats , or anyone else. End of story!

    Regards, onebornfree

  22. The Covid-19 is a bio-engineered weapon.

    It is being used as a trial of full governmental control of the citizen-sheeple.

    Worse will follow.

    Conditioning the masses is a Tribal trick.

    Guess which Tribe?

    • Agree: Ultrafart the Brave
  23. macilrae says:
    @Mark G.

    In your first comment you were saying masks don’t cause a big reduction in infection rates but reduce the severity of the disease. Now you are saying masks substantially reduce infections. You are contradicting yourself.

    My actual words were “Face masks do not necessarily prevent infection but they can probably reduce its severity”.

    Let’s remember what we’re arguing about: does the use of face masks make everybody much safer? You say no I say yes.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
  24. @Jim Christian

    Cheers to your continued good health kind Sir.
    Enjoy your retirement.

  25. Sparkon says:
    @roonaldo

    Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, the two links you provided do not point to the articles you’ve cited, but rather only to the front pages of Fox News and Cleveland dot com.

    Here is the direct link to one of the Fox articles about Eric Chase:

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/customer-speaks-out-2-missouri-hair-stylists-tested-positive-worked-coronavirus-symptoms

    Chase claims he was at the salon on May 17, and observed that not all stylists at the salon were wearing masks. Subsequently, he was contacted by county health authorities with information that he may have been exposed during his visit.

    The CDC paper I cited includes at its end a table:

    Hair salon clients’ (N = 104) responses to interview questions* about their interactions with two stylists with COVID-19 during salon appointments — Springfield, Missouri, May 12–20, 2020

    The table data show that 102 out of 104 customers indicated in a telephone interview that they wore a face mask for the entire duration of their visit to the salon, while 2 customers said they wore a mask for “part of the appointment.”

    101 out of 104 customers said that the stylists wore a face mask for the entire duration of their visit, while 3 customers said they “did not know,” but none of the customers of those 104 interviewed reported seeing any stylist without a mask during their visit.

    I don’t know where Eric Chase fits in these data, but apparently what he told Fox news does not align with what he told Greene County health officials.

    In any event, on Nov. 10, 2020, the CDC issued an updated scientific brief: “Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2”

    Conclusions

    Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation.

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  26. Mark G. says:
    @macilrae

    Let’s remember what we’re arguing about: does the use of face masks make everybody much safer? You say no I say yes

    No one can argue with you if you keep switching back and forth on what you are saying.

    A study was done with 1800 Marines where they wore face masks at all times and it was found that it did not stop the spread of the disease. There was also a control group that didn’t wear masks and there was no difference between the two groups.

    https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/new-study-lockdowns-masks-are-useless-and-might-even-increase-covid-19-spread/

    You didn’t answer my question. If mask wearing Singapore has low death rates but mask wearing Indiana, where I live, has much higher death rates then why do you think it is masks that causes the low death rates in Singapore and not something else?

    • Replies: @macilrae
  27. Sparkon says:
    @Sparkon

    I don’t know where Eric Chase fits in these data, but apparently what he told Fox news does not align with what he told Greene County health officials.

    I should have been more clear and specified that, of course, it’s entirely possible that Eric Chase’s data were not included on the CDC table I cited, as it includes responses for only 104 out of 139 customers of the Great Clips salon who had close contact with the pair of symptomatic stylists, or just 75%. Fox says the number of customers was 147, but the CDC uses 139.

    The fact that response data for only 104 customers are included in the table does open the possibility of cherry-picking by the CDC, or local health authorities, to exclude those data that don’t comport with the desired result, i.e. support for universal community mask-wearing. But sometimes data, and votes, are tossed out for various technical reasons, or because the data did not arrive or get processed in time to meet the publication deadline.

    Chase’s remarks to Fox indicate he’d had ongoing conversations with the local health authorities, and had been providing them with updates, so it seems likely his data would have been included, but for one reason or another, perhaps it was not, so I must retract any suggestion that Chase was lying.

    It should be noted too that the first symptomatic stylist did seek medical attention for her symptoms, being told on her first visit to the clinic that she was suffering from allergies, and on the second visit that it was OK for her to return to work if she wore a mask. Despite what some think, it was not just a simple case where the stylist got sick, but went in to work, anyway.

    Nevertheless, if you are sick or experiencing any symptoms, stay home. As it becomes necessary, use the phone to seek medical attention.

  28. macilrae says:
    @Mark G.

    You didn’t answer my question. If mask wearing Singapore has low death rates but mask wearing Indiana, where I live, has much higher death rates then why do you think it is masks that causes the low death rates in Singapore and not something else?

    And you didn’t absorb what I said when I listed other possible reasons that have been cited. My key observation was that people in SE Asia are very fastidious in using face masks while many Brits and US Americans are not – and that face masks could actually reduce the severity of any infection which may get through them. My son, who works in Seoul, says mask wearing is universal outdoors. I’d welcome input on other possible reasons for the huge disparity in mortality.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
  29. @macilrae

    I don’t see any choice involved. Society is like family, you get what you get. Your duty and participation is not only assumed but coerced and enforced in countless ways that can’t be regarded as a free choice.

    I suppose some expatriates might be said to be choosing a society, but that’s not an opportunity that most people ever get. Or can rise to.

    And like family, your responsibility to society only goes so far. If my family made me wear a tinfoil hat because my father had convinced them that the microwaves were cooking our brains, it’s not necessarily irresponsible for me to refuse.

    And if they threatened to lock me in a closet if I continued to disobey, I don’t know that many people would characterize my resistance as a sad lack of familial duty.

    The problem with enlightened self-interest is there will always be a lack of consensus as to what constitutes enlightenment… so it always comes down to coercion, one way or the other. The individual has responsibilities to himself as well, and a society that consistently overrules those responsibilities is probably a sick society.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  30. onebornfree says: • Website
    @onebornfree

    Finally, a female with guts, who’s not afraid to get right to the point [unlike R. Paul, apparently].

    The Pholosopher says: “Fuck the mask order”:

    Enjoy!
    Regards, onebornfree

  31. macilrae says:
    @Sollipsist

    I don’t see any choice involved. Society is like family, you get what you get. Your duty and participation is not only assumed but coerced and enforced in countless ways that can’t be regarded as a free choice.

    I don’t argue with this except in that you’ve used the word “coerced” in an evocative way when, perhaps, enforced alone would have been better. But a person who feels coerced by some rule evidently must be disputing its necessity – reasonably or unreasonably.

    In recent generations we have seen a transition to a more selfish and, allegedly, individualistic society. Antisocial behavior is rife – loud music or domestic disputes at all hours, barking dogs – and there is almost nothing to be done to stop it – a polite request will most usually receive an abusive rebuff. Enforcement would certainly be seen as coercion.

    This thread is here because we are debating whether, assuming masks were credibly deemed to reduce infection and save lives, their use should be mandated for the general good. Certain individuals are dug in with their disagreement about the benefits and therefore they feel they have the right to disobey the mandate. Achmed E. Newman up there is saying that he actually does wear a mask at work – but you can see he deeply resents it and undoubtedly he feels coerced.

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
  32. Mark G. says:
    @macilrae

    And you didn’t absorb what I said when I listed other possible reasons that have been cited. My key observation was that people in SE Asia are very fastidious in using face masks while many Brits and US Americans are not – and that face masks could actually reduce the severity of any infection which may get through them.

    And you didn’t look at the study I provided showing that fastidious mask wearing didn’t work.

    Even if they do have an effect, what works in a high IQ society known for its conformism may not work elsewhere. The U.S. is a large multicultural country where a third of the population is Hispanic or black. We have mask rules here. All the white suburbanites eagerly don their masks but if you go into inner city areas large numbers of people are not wearing them. If you can’t get ghetto blacks to stop shooting each other how are you going to get them to put on a mask?

    Mask laws in the United States have turned into a form of political theater. Politicians adopt ineffective or even harmful policies just because the public has become hysterical and are demanding something be done. The hysteria needs to be dialed down by providing them with more accurate information. One poll found the average person thinks 10 million Americans have died from this. It’s three percent of that. In another poll, people said half of all deaths are among people under sixty. The actual figure is ten percent. The mainstream media and political officials have done a poor job here.

    If someone is convinced that mask wearing works then they can wear a mask. I’ve not seen a single instance where someone wearing a mask was harassed about it and I would not ever do that myself or advocate that anyone else does.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  33. macilrae says:
    @Mark G.

    To wrap up an exchange that won’t result in anybody changing their minds I’ll just say that I wear a face mask (diaper, burka) for the same reason my doctor does; as well as the majority of his colleagues – the nonetheless esteemed Dr. Paul being a rare exception.

  34. Possumman says:
    @macilrae

    We are required to wear them at the gym I attend–the masks are soaked after 15 minutes and when you are breathing hard all of the exhaled air just shoots out thru the top and bottom nyway it does not pas thru the wet mask

    • Replies: @macilrae
  35. macilrae says:
    @Possumman

    I am sure you’re right and I doubt masks are too much use in gyms – however few of us are performing gymnastics as we go about our daily lives.

  36. @macilrae

    Just wanted to say that I agree with you on most things, and I appreciate our conversation not getting heated over the small area of disagreement.

    I’m just not convinced that it’s essentially a problem of individualism. Most of the people that I know who are avowed individualists are also good neighbors with a heightened sense of civic responsibility. Perhaps there’s a significant difference between people who consciously consider themselves individualist, versus the greater mass of people who are merely habitually antisocial?

    Ironically, many of the people that I know who are antisocial are more likely than the individualists to support policies based on their idea of the common good. I suppose it’s like the classic stereotype of the liberal who “loves humanity but hates people.” It may be a critical weakness of individualists that they do not generally try to turn their beliefs into policy, and therefore are often seen as recalcitrant when it comes to larger sociopolitical movements.

    Personally, I wear a mask for work, for the same reason that I abide by the company dress code; I like what I do, and want to keep doing it. My work deals with viral and other contagions constantly — long before Covid-19, my job required PPE (in specific situations) and I never had any issue with it. We stay home when we show symptoms, isolate the sick, and take great care in sanitizing exposed areas.

    The Covid-19 mindset is something distinctly different. I would go so far as to say that it’s antisocial by nature; it’s based on the idea that everyone you encounter is a potentially lethal danger. Many of the people who most vehemently demand mask use are either germophobes who are neurotically obsessed with protecting themselves, or the bureaucratically minded who enjoy the justification of public health to be intrusive and controlling.

    Both of these personality types are getting as much mileage as possible from having a scientific basis and mainstream/majority support. And neither of them really care to consider any evidence that they might be overreacting, or even creating a worse problem with their efforts. This seems a far bigger example of antisocial behavior than the people who want to gather together so much that they resist the widespread arguments against doing so.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @macilrae
  37. macilrae says:
    @Sollipsist

    Hi Sollipsist.

    Part of what you say is the reason why I put “allegedly individualistic society”. I didn’t want to start a whole new debate but it seems to me that true individualists are a precious commodity and not all that common: people who are very comfortable with themselves and their original points of view and don’t need to be a showboat. People, maybe, who’d wear a mask, even if they didn’t believe in its efficacy; just because they didn’t want to upset others – saying to themselves “what’s a little bit of discomfort to me compared to making a whole bunch of folk feel uneasy?”

    As another person here said in a parallel discussion a “when in Rome” attitude.

    In fact I personally think that some of these hold-out non-mask wearers actually want to be accosted – noticed – and called out – precisely because of the attention they get and the chance that affords them to loudly state their case in public: to the outrage of others. Then they can go home satisfied.

    Taking it a bit further, for fun, I have a saying that often the most obviously flamboyant people – in dress, in speech, in general behaviour – are actually quite deeply dull within. Their flamboyance being a desperate attempt to capture the attention they’d otherwise never receive, based on their personality and lack of individuality.

    Conversely, the true ‘originals’ appear, and often act, in a quite ordinary way – until you get to know them.

    mac.

  38. @onebornfree

    Regardless, in the US, there is still no constitutional provision for the mandatory , nationwide enforcement of lockdowns, masks, social distancing, or vaccines, on the claims or whims of scientists, doctors, presidents,politicians, bureaucrats , or anyone else. End of story!

    This is one of the few posters who seems to understand what’s really at issue with the Corona Chan “pandemic”.

    All the guff about the huge mortality difference between various Asian countries and their Western counterparts is easily resolved by just accepting that the “pandemic” is a staged event with an ominous purpose, verging on the Biblical, one step towards the “Mark of the Beast” or however one likes to characterize it.

    Actual Corona Chan case fatality rate -way less than 1% (probably equivalent to a bad flu season).

    Sure, the poor old codgers copped it worse than most of us, but it is what it is – a relatively trivial virus (if it actually exists) with a super-hyped global PR campaign.

    Even bands of independent-minded doctors in Western nations have emphatically insisted that the Corona Chan bug is easily treated with cheap, safe and easily accessible medicine – except that the authorities in said Western nations have literally banned the use of such medicine for Corona Chan.

    You’d think that they don’t actually want to cure it – unless its with an officially approved “vaccine”, in which case it appears we won’t have any choice, whether you have the bug or not.

    Reported Corona Chan fatality rate – depends entirely on the political and medical establishments, the level of corruption and the influence of vested interests in each jurisdiction. Of particular note are alleged financial incentives for reporting all deaths as Covid deaths, and financial involvement of health officials with the Big Pharma push for global “vaccinations”.

    And then there’s creepy megalomaniac eugenicists like Bill Gates and his WHO stooges. (How is that pathologically amoral misfit still alive? Ditto for the eminent Dr. Fauci, for that matter.).

    It’s all about control, baby! George Orwell got it right, he was just a few decades too early with his prophecies.

    Of course, the USA isn’t the whole world, and there’s quite a few countries that haven’t fallen for all this Corona Chan crap.

    BUT how the people in the USA deal with this dystopian power grab is important, at least to it’s little tribe of satellite minions, because (being the spineless lickspittles that they are) they will inevitably continue to take their lead from the global protector of “freedom & democracy”.

    So grow some balls and stand up for your liberty, Americans! The rest of us (spineless lickspittles) are depending on you.

  39. I do not really trust Trump either…. remember Bibi still wants the US to take out Iran maybe not so much for the citizens of Israel but for some Globalist/Banker Dark Handlers… so look at what Pompeo is doing in Israel now. OK but…. Why did “they” have Joe Biden say the Words DARK WINTER in the last debate, “they” made a point of this…. so some real deadly biological release and/or there is more than one way to have a literally DARK WINTER…. so watch the US POWERGRID see https://www.globalresearch.ca/why-corporate-media-predicting-dark-winter/5728226?fbclid=IwAR2Y_SnTH3vfANuQKdn8JLdZ5SwtLv5Tu8nbpvDjTpP7_ngPBbta9jg3CVs … Other groups were similarly engaged in “war games” that predicted complete chaos in the U.S. on election day as well as the imposition of martial law. This includes the “Operation Blackout” simulations conducted by the U.S.-Israeli company, Cybereason. That company has considerable ties to the U.S. and Israeli intelligence.

    Operation Blackout involved hackers taking control of city buses around the U.S., crashing into voters waiting in line at polling stations, hacked traffic lights causing accidents, and the release of “deepfakes” to manipulate the public. The simulation resulted in the cancellation of the 2020 election and the imposition of martial law. ….. STUXNET 2.0h

  40. Cybereason founded in 2012 by 2012 Founders Lior Div, Yonatan Amit, Yossi Naar Cybereason is the leader in endpoint protection, offering endpoint detection and response, next-generation antivirus, and managed monitoring services. Founded by elite intelligence professionals born and bred in offense-first hunting, Cybereason gives enterprises the upper hand over cyber adversaries.

    The Cybereason platform is powered by acustom-built in-memory graph, the only truly automated hunting engine anywhere. It detects behavioral patterns across every endpoint and surfaces malicious operations in an exceptionally user-friendly interface. Cybereason is privately held and headquartered in Boston with offices in London, Tel Aviv, and Tokyo. https://www.cybereason.com/blog/mitre-attck-evaluation-results It would be silly not to think that there is not a “dark” part of MITRE corp since they are about threat detection and did not tell us the truth about 9/11 although on some levels [remember in the Government things are compartmented] there are probably many good Mitre employees doing their best to guard against cyber-threats.

  41. https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-who-created-it-and-how-does-it-work.html …. It’s now widely accepted that Stuxnet was created by the intelligence agencies of the United States and Israel. The classified program to develop the worm was given the code name “Operation Olympic Games”; it was begun under President George W. Bush and continued under President Obama. While neither government has ever officially acknowledged developing Stuxnet, a 2011 video created to celebrate the retirement of Israeli Defense Forces head Gabi Ashkenazi listed Stuxnet as one of the successes under his watch.

    While the individual engineers behind Stuxnet haven’t been identified, we know that they were very skilled, and that there were a lot of them. Kaspersky Lab’s Roel Schouwenberg estimated that it took a team of ten coders two to three years to create the worm in its final form.

    Several other worms with infection capabilities similar to Stuxnet, including those dubbed Duqu and Flame, have been identified in the wild, although their purposes are quite different than Stuxnet’s. Their similarity to Stuxnet leads experts to believe that they are products of the same development shop, which is apparently still active.

  42. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2019/05/22/immigrant-lior-div-brings-jobs-and-an-israeli-cybersecurity-approach-to-america/?sh=7ded2ebd5792 ,,,, Lior says that the military background, what he describes as a hands-on offensive operations capability, informs Cybereason’s technology and approach to addressing hacking. What companies have to worry about, he says, is not a few guys sitting at home and hacking but attacks that go across the whole enterprise, moving from one device or server to another. The purpose of Cybereason’s technology, he notes, is to process attacks in “real time” to discern and combat a pattern of attack. Lior contrasts his company’s approach of aiming to protect the whole enterprise with a “siloed” approach that “protects one thing at a time.”…. Maybe I am wrong…. but For the Love of God, and Jesus Loves You can you please help us?

  43. roonaldo says:

    Well, the Danish mask study has finally been made public at Annals of Internal Medicine, rt.com’s link took me to acpjournals.com, dated 11/18/2020. This is the community-based, randomized, controlled trial that the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), the Lancet, and the New England Journal of Medicine all refused to publish.

    3030 people wore masks with 42 of them picking up covid, while 53 out of 2994 maskless folks acquired the bug, which was determined statistically insignificant. It is interesting reading–the research design, implementation, analysis, etc.. They discuss the “possibility,” if one disregards the determination that the 42 vs 53 result is not statistically significant, that masks may do ya some good.

    I’m sure Joe “The Senescence Guy” Biden will hold a lengthy, detailed, press conference about the public policy implications of it all.

    • Thanks: Mark G., Achmed E. Newman
  44. @macilrae

    I highly respect Dr. Paul also – but yes there is a reason East Asians did much better. Even the supposed Swedish model of freedom and herd immunity is crumbling as Sweden is now using restrictions because deaths have become too high

  45. @macilrae

    Yup… The hoaxers will be disappointed to know that even Sweden now is imposing restrictions

  46. MOG says:
    @macilrae

    “East Asians have long believed in masks”. Masks are worn in Asia (esp. China) to protect against the dense smog produced by their intensely industrial (and coal-burning) society. They have been doing this for decades, long before the current viral outbreak. The SARS-Cov2 virus particle has a diameter of 200 nano-meters, way too small for your mask to filter. Filtering “mucus droplets” is equally futile, as the evaporation time for these ranges from a few milliseconds (5 micron droplet) to about 2.5 seconds (100 micron), after which time the viral particles they contain are released to the atmosphere as an aerosol which easily penetrates your mask. Some “Health experts” (not all!) “recommend” masks but cannot produce any scientific proof to support their recommendations. It is political opinion masquerading as science, not “scientific opinion”, which has done a sudden about-face since March of this year. The mask is a uniform, a reminder to all to remain constantly fearful and to accept the emerging Tyranny of the “New Normal”.

    The lower mortality rate in China is due to their willingness to employ off-patent treatments (e.g., Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin/Zinc, Vitamin D, etc.) which actually work. Nothing to do with masks.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Sparkon
  47. @macilrae

    I will say that “self-discipline” and “social responsibility” are huge issues today when people can be socially irresponsible with no consequences. Our grandfathers understood this better – and they largely made the world we now inhabit.

    Indeed.

    Not once did my grandfathers wear a diaper on the face.

  48. Sparkon says:
    @MOG

    The SARS-Cov2 virus particle has a diameter of 200 nano-meters, way too small for your mask to filter. Filtering “mucus droplets” is equally futile, as the evaporation time for these ranges from a few milliseconds (5 micron droplet) to about 2.5 seconds (100 micron), after which time the viral particles they contain are released to the atmosphere as an aerosol which easily penetrates your mask.

    You have registered some of the frequently heard technical objections against mask wearing. However, a simulation by researchers at the Univ. of Illinois showed that cotton and some other common household fabrics were effective in filtering out coronavirus-size particles in expelled droplets, especially when the fabrics were layered.

    We fill the nozzle of an inhaler with distilled water mixed with 100-nanometer fluorescent particles, which mimic the coronavirus in size. When puffed, the inhaler forces the water through the nozzle and generates high-momentum droplets that we collect on a plastic dish placed vertically in front of the inhaler. We then repeat the process with the fabric we are testing over the collection dish. We measure how much water landed on the dish in both cases by counting the nanoparticles using a microscope. We can then use the ratio of the volume collected with and without the fabric to give us a measure of droplet-blocking efficiency. […] Our work produced two key findings.

    First, most common household fabrics, such as T-shirt material, have 40% or higher droplet blocking when used as a single layer. In two layers, to our surprise, T-shirt fabric had a 98% droplet blocking efficiency – exceeding that of the medical mask, while maintaining better breathability.

    Second, most common fabrics are hydrophilic, meaning they up soak water, whereas medical masks are hydrophobic, meaning they repel water. This tells us that common household fabrics use an alternative mechanism to hold droplets by retaining them.

    https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/808377

    Another study from the U of I had similar results:

    We found that most fabrics have substantial blocking efficiency (median values >70%). In particular, two layers of highly permeable fabric, such as T-shirt cloth, blocks droplets with an efficiency (>94%) similar to that of medical masks, while being approximately twice as breathable. The first layer allows about 17% of the droplet volume to transmit, but it significantly reduces their velocity. This allows the second layer to trap the transmitted droplets resulting in high blocking efficacy. Overall, our study suggests that cloth face coverings, especially with multiple layers, may help reduce droplet transmission of respiratory infections. Furthermore, face coverings made from materials such as cotton fabrics allow washing and reusing, and can help reduce the adverse environmental effects of widespread use of commercial disposable and non-biodegradable facemasks.

    https://experts.illinois.edu/en/publications/performance-of-fabrics-for-home-made-masks-against-the-spread-of-

    Even without considering these studies, common sense should tell one that passing air through a fabric will reduce the number of suspended particles by blocking and trapping them, directly upon impact, and also through the hydrophilic and electrostatic properties of the fibers of the fabrics themselves.

    Although SAVS-Cov-2 is indeed tiny, ~80-140 nm, it is helpful to consider the action in 3D, and realize that anything trying to pass through three layers of fine cotton has a relatively long journey with many obstacles standing in its way, as the studies show.

    Cotton fabric, 40x

    Photo by Todd Simpson presented by Zeiss Microscopy on Flickr

    1 µm = 1000 nm
    1 micron or micrometer = 1000 nanometers.

  49. Jtgw says:

    I was becoming a Covid skeptic over the summer but current spike is making me rethink. Now at almost 250k deaths and this is corroborated by all cause mortality for those claiming the numbers are fake. This is a public health disaster.

    Question remains what this means for libertarian ideology. I say it’s like immigration and illustrates tragedy of commons. Rather than a multitude of small jurisdictions exercising total control over their borders, we have a vast territory with compulsory open internal borders. Just like open immigration is a disaster as long as private discrimination and exclusion are outlawed, failure to impose some public health measures are a disaster as long as public spaces exist with no right of exclusion. And this ties in with the immigration issue insofar as failure to ban international air travel at start of pandemic allowed the virus to spread and justify later repressive measures.

  50. Jokem says:

    My problem with this entire Covid19 issue is the question of how much of what is told has been filtered through politics? I could go on a rant about the politicization of science, but I won’t.

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