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Governments love crises because when the people are fearful they are more willing to give up freedoms for promises that the government will take care of them. After 9/11, for example, Americans accepted the near-total destruction of their civil liberties in the PATRIOT Act’s hollow promises of security.

It is ironic to see the same Democrats who tried to impeach President Trump last month for abuse of power demanding that the Administration grab more power and authority in the name of fighting a virus that thus far has killed less than 100 Americans.

Declaring a pandemic emergency on Friday, President Trump now claims the power to quarantine individuals suspected of being infected by the virus and, as Politico writes, “stop and seize any plane, train or automobile to stymie the spread of contagious disease.” He can even call out the military to cordon off a US city or state.

State and local authoritarians love panic as well. The mayor of Champaign, Illinois, signed an executive order declaring the power to ban the sale of guns and alcohol and cut off gas, water, or electricity to any citizen. The governor of Ohio just essentially closed his entire state.

The chief fearmonger of the Trump Administration is without a doubt Anthony Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health. Fauci is all over the media, serving up outright falsehoods to stir up even more panic. He testified to Congress that the death rate for the coronavirus is ten times that of the seasonal flu, a claim without any scientific basis.

On Face the Nation, Fauci did his best to further damage an already tanking economy by stating, “Right now, personally, myself, I wouldn’t go to a restaurant.” He has pushed for closing the entire country down for 14 days.

Over what? A virus that has thus far killed just over 5,000 worldwide and less than 100 in the United States? By contrast, tuberculosis, an old disease not much discussed these days, killed nearly 1.6 million people in 2017. Where’s the panic over this?

If anything, what people like Fauci and the other fearmongers are demanding will likely make the disease worse. The martial law they dream about will leave people hunkered down inside their homes instead of going outdoors or to the beach where the sunshine and fresh air would help boost immunity. The panic produced by these fearmongers is likely helping spread the disease, as massive crowds rush into Walmart and Costco for that last roll of toilet paper.

The madness over the coronavirus is not limited to politicians and the medical community. The head of the neoconservative Atlantic Council wrote an editorial this week urging NATO to pass an Article 5 declaration of war against the COVID-19 virus! Are they going to send in tanks and drones to wipe out these microscopic enemies?

People should ask themselves whether this coronavirus “pandemic” could be a big hoax, with the actual danger of the disease massively exaggerated by those who seek to profit – financially or politically – from the ensuing panic.

That is not to say the disease is harmless. Without question people will die from coronavirus. Those in vulnerable categories should take precautions to limit their risk of exposure. But we have seen this movie before. Government over-hypes a threat as an excuse to grab more of our freedoms. When the “threat” is over, however, they never give us our freedoms back.

(Republished from The Ron Paul Institute by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. As Greg Cochran has pointed out, the only way to defeat the virus is to lower its reproductive index below 1. Whilst more than one person gets the virus, even at an R0 of 1.3 we have a problem. Victory is to deny the virus its stepping stones. This simple fact highlights a paradox: stern measures work best when they appear to be unnecessary. Banning plane flights stops the spread globally, and works best when there is no need for it, because no cases have presented themselves. This requires the ability to conceive of future events, and plan to avoid them. It requires high intelligence, and even higher political courage.

    I admire Dr. Paul and usually agree with everything he says. But I’m not entirely sure the CV scare is a hoax.

    Better safe than sorry.

    No doubt the media has exaggerated the severity of the virus and they are always going after Trump….still….China,Iran, and Italy have quite a few deaths.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  2. I have a background in epidemiology. Back in the 1980s, when data on AIDS/HIV was just becoming available, I developed a simple epi model of the spread of HIV/AIDS. This model suggested that the widespread panic at the time, that AIDS was about to spread into the general population, was a fantasy, which impeded responsible public health measures, e.g., closing San Francisco’s bath houses and removing potentially tainted blood from the nation’s blood supplies. Then I promoted restraint. Now I’m promoting alarm.

    Why?

    Back about four weeks ago data from the Chinese experience in Wuhan became available. Until the PRC instituted strict public health measures – far stricter than anything yet in place in this country – the number of reported infections doubled approximately every four days and the reported case fatality rate was greater than 3%. I built a very simple worldwide epi model using these data and predicted that things were going to get a lot worse, roughly where we are now, if stringent public health measures weren’t taken, anywhere Covid-19 appeared. Those predictions have come true.

    I live in Massachusetts. If one uses Chinese experience in Wuhan to conservatively project a doubling of infections every five days and a case mortality rate of 2 per hundred in the absence of infection controls, then without prompt public health action, Massachusetts might experience projected infections and deaths like the ones in the table below.

    Date Infections Deaths
    15-Mar-20 164 3
    20-Mar-20 328 7
    25-Mar-20 656 13
    30-Mar-20 1,312 26
    4-Apr-20 2,624 52
    9-Apr-20 5,248 105
    14-Apr-20 10,496 210
    19-Apr-20 20,992 420
    24-Apr-20 41,984 840
    29-Apr-20 83,968 1,679
    4-May-20 167,936 3,359
    9-May-20 335,872 6,717
    14-May-20 671,744 13,435

    Of course, the further out projections are much too high. The curve of total infections in an epidemic take the shape of a logistic curve. At some point exponential growth ends and the rate of new infections flattens out; eventually ending as the epidemic burns itself out.

    But looking at these figures, one understands why Governor Baker decided to close schools, limit bars and restaurants to take out, and ban all public gatherings of 25 or more people. These measures may help prevent a foreseeable catastrophe.

    In the words of Enoch Powell, “The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature. One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future. Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: “If only,” they love to think, “if only people wouldn’t talk about it, it probably wouldn’t happen.” Perhaps this habit goes back to the primitive belief that the word and the thing, the name and the object, are identical.
    At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician. Those who knowingly shirk it deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after.”

    Back in the 1950s, when I was still a child, that first, truly great and miraculous wonder of modern medicine, penicillin, had just recently become widely available. Americans were still rightfully fearful of infectious diseases and terrified of epidemics and pandemics. My father remembered passing stacks of un-buried coffins piled in the streets of Boston during the 1918 Influenza Pandemic, just three decades earlier. Individual households accepted without demur the necessity of quarantine for certain infectious diseases, e.g., measles and whooping cough. I can still remember occasionally seeing yellow quarantine posters on the front doors of houses in the neighborhood and asking my parents what they signified. During a Polio epidemic in Quincy, the entire beach front was closed to the public and patrolled to ensure compliance. Commercial clamming, local commercial fishing, and beachfront businesses, all important local industries, were hit hard.

    Americans, and the developed world in general, have forgotten just how bad infectious disease epidemics can be and what difficult public health measures measures may be needed to curb them. As the projections above should suggest, now is a time for urgent public health measures to control what in their absence could become a catastrophe. Unfortunately, the populations of developed nations, the USA in particular, have become accustomed to the luxury of ignoring the dangers of infectious diseases and infectious disease epidemics. Some of the inappropriate responses have been irrational outbreaks of panic on the one hand and a petulant anger at necessary prohibitions on the other. Just yesterday, I read that a wannabe Typhoid Mary, a man confirmed to have an active case of Covid-19, had to be physically restrained by police lest he go out into the community and spread the disease. A bar owner in Nashville, Tennessee, has ignored the mayor’s orders and turned his venue into a hot spot for Covid-19 infections.

    Tough times demand sacrifices. I hope this country and its leadership are up to the challenge. I fear they may not be.

  3. SteveK9 says:

    What shocked people, I think, is what is happening in Italy. 1800 deaths so far is not trivial, and the number of deaths per day is still increasing. With China people in the West think, ‘well, they are not like us’. Hard to make that argument with Italians.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
  4. Dr Paul,
    Just today I was reading about the Spanish Flu of 1918 and learnt that the death toll was a hundred million. There was no penicillin or antibiotic at that time.
    The patients were brought out of their rooms and tents, out into the open air and sunlight. This increased the survival rate to 40%.

    I can bet anyone that this COVID 19 will keep contracting as the temperature rises.

    As for S.Asia, which has the potential to be an explosive Corona bomb, due to obvious reasons (Overcrowded, un-hygienic, lacking adequate medical facilities) this will never happen.

    The virus doesn’t thrive in warmer climes and South Asia will remain free of it, while the northern countries in it’s grip today, will see a dramatic drop in Spring and Summer.

    • Replies: @nickels
    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
  5. NPleeze says:
    @Robert Dolan

    Victory is to deny the virus its stepping stones

    The fearful, like you, can stay bunkered in your basements. It’s when you use a gun to try to force me to bunker there as well that I take exception.

    This is a classic case of government tyranny. I bet if the government got to control everyone’s every meal, vastly more lives could be saved (from obesity, heart disease, etc.) than could possibly be killed by the COVID-19 virus, which, at worst (ignoring all the immune folks, about 80%, and those who have mild system but aren’t “verified”) about 1%.

    So let’s have the government control all our meals, shall we? And our jobs. Certainly we can’t leave reproduction to the unwashed masses. Or education. Government knows best. Government is here to help. Government should control everything, for our common good.

    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  6. NPleeze says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Go move to China until the event is over. Actually quarantine yourself in your house.

    Your BS “calculations” are just BS. Only a certain portion of the population is vulnerable, 80% don’t even catch anything when exposed. The doubling can only happen as long as the vulnerable population exposes itself to others. Healthy young people are at same risk as the flu.

    But from now on, let’s shut down the country every winter, eh? We don’t want to have all those people get infected! And use guns to force the sane among us to comply!

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  7. nickels says:
    @Rev. Spooner

    1918 flu was vicious. Peoples eyes and ears bled out and they turned black.
    This appears to have same mortality as flu, tho it is more contsgious.

    • Replies: @Realist
  8. @NPleeze

    I’m not fearful, you douche.

    In fact I have been going about my business as usual.

    However, as I mentioned above, Italian deaths are quite alarming, so you can’t say the concern over the virus is a “hoax.”

    Yes, the MSM has caused a panic, and their target is Trump. This is obvious as well.

    Social distancing will “flatten the curve,” slow the transmission of the virus, so that hospitals will not be inundated, and the people who need treatment will be able to receive it.

    There is a middle ground between claiming it’s a hoax and total panic…..the balance is to take sane precautions to mitigate the spread.

    I’ve posted comments to the effect that this hoopla could be an excuse to grab more power, and it’s a given that the hostile elite never lets a crisis go to waste. But I would hate to see us wind up in a triage situation like in Italy, where hospitals have to refuse treatment to older people in order to make room to save younger people.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
    , @ploni almoni
  9. @SteveK9

    Take account of this underlying story to “what is happening in Italy.”

    The Chinese Workers Who Assemble Designer Bags in Tuscany. April 2018
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany
    The Chinese residents of Prato have arguably revived the fading manufacturing city, which has the highest proportion of immigrants in Italy.

    and
    CORONA VIRUS EXCLUSIVE: WHY ITALY? Mar 12 2020
    https://www.altnewsmedia.net/news/corona-virus-exclusive-why-italy/

    Many Italians in Northern Italy have sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese workers from Wuhan and Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct flights between Wuhan and Northern Italy. This continued post outbreak, so is it mere coincidence that Northern Italy is now Europe’s hotspot for Corona Virus?

    The murky reality is that the EU turned a blind eye to vast numbers of illegal Chinese immigrants working in Italian factories. The ‘Open Borders’ EU will of course try to keep this under wraps, but reality is, the Chinese Mafia operate Italian textile factories with tens of thousands of illegal immigrants shipping ‘made in Italy’ goods into China and elsewhere.

    There are a lot of Chinese in USA as well: DC suburbs host numerous genome labs and the National Institutes of Health that employ many Chinese scientists.
    But the Chinese population in this part of USA is prosperous, professional.

    Reasonable guess that Chinese workers in what might be sweat shops in Italy live in poorer conditions, practice more primitive forms of Chinese culture.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @NPleeze
  10. NPleeze says:
    @Robert Dolan

    Italian deaths are quite alarming

    Not really. So far 1,800 have died, and although they don’t give the ages anywhere, I bet 95% are 70 and over. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

    So, old and frail people should self-quarantine and maintain social distance. That is the rational response. Not your “preventative martial law” .

    their target is Trump. This is obvious as well.

    I don’t think that’s obvious at all. The Orange Idiot is fanning the flames of panic as much as anyone. The Orange Conman is part and parcel of the Establishment, the obviously-controlled opposition, with one wing of the Establishment media (CNN, MSNBC, etc.) attacking him and the other wing (Fox, etc.) glorifying him. You Trump supporters don’t seem to grasp that the elite put Fox in play to restore the illusion of democracy that was quickly fading. It’s all a game. The oligarchic dictatorship remains.

    The agenda transcends anything to do with the Orange Puppet. It gets to what you are clamoring for – total government control. And I quote:

    stern measures work best when they appear to be unnecessary. Banning plane flights stops the spread globally, and works best when there is no need for it

    What is that, if not handing the government a blank check to do whatever it wants “for your own good”? They can ban all travel, close all restaurants, and quarantine everyone at a drop of a hat – some virus somewhere.

    sane precautions to mitigate the spread.

    Of course, but we are far from that at this point.

    where hospitals have to refuse treatment to older people in order to make room to save younger people.

    It already happens in the US – except it’s the uninsured who aren’t given room. Millions die a year – and if someone proposes a solution – HORROR! SOCIALISM! lol

    • Agree: Kali
    • Disagree: Robert Dolan
    • Troll: JimDandy
    • Replies: @JimDandy
    , @Robert Dolan
  11. Realist says:
    @nickels

    This appears to have same mortality as flu, tho it is more contsgious.

    Neither of those data figures are known.

  12. NPleeze says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    practice more primitive forms of Chinese culture

    Yeah, raw bat salad every Sunday. Fear makes the sissy bigoted redneck even redder.

  13. Realist says:
    @SteveK9

    With China people in the West think, ‘well, they are not like us’. Hard to make that argument with Italians

    How many of the deaths in Italy are Chinese?

  14. @Rev. Spooner

    Lack of Penicillin and other antibiotics are a moot issue when it comes to viral infections.

    • Replies: @Mustapha Mond
  15. KenH says:

    Ron Paul is 100% correct on this. Coronavirus is being hyped to scare people into accepting more government totalitarianism and state governors and mayors are assuming powers they don’t have. Where do they derive the power to shut down restaurants or limit the scope of their business and temporarily halt all commerce relating to firearms?

    Trump was supposed to be a firewall against this type of madness but per usual he and the Republicans are just rolling over and rubber stamping every bit of legislation ostensibly meant to combat coronovirus. Now Trump has agreed in principle to Pelosi’s 50 billion dollar giveaway which looks like it was written by the Bernie Sanders campaign. Arch-cuckservative Tom Cotton is now quacking for a national shutdown and universal basic income for everyone affected.

    So if the Republicans are going to run against socialism for the 2020 election they’ll look like fools and hypocrites since that is what they are proposing now.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  16. @NPleeze

    Whoa there, Sparkie! Temper! Temper! Reason leaves the room when rage enters.

    There are at least two contemporary uses of the term BS. One is to describe an argument, which is based on bogus data or arguments. The second is used by the unintelligent and/or ill-informed to cast aspersions on an argument which they can neither understand nor refute.

    My starting data – at least 9,776 infections in China and 213 deaths, as of 31 January 2020 – are not bogus. They are based on official PCR reports and probably understate the true problem. They can be found here https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/01/31/chinas-coronavirus-will-be-worse-than-sars-but-what-does-that-even-mean/#44bec6e01c64. The data on Covid-19 cases in Massachusetts as of 15 March appeared on yesterday’s evening news.

    Neither is my argument bogus. To demonstrate the potential dangers of an uncontrolled Covid-19 epidemic in Massachusetts I used standard epidemiological procedures to project the number of Covid-19 infections and fatalities that might be expected absent public health interventions. First, I estimated that Case 0 in China occurred sometime in late November or early December and then used the Chinese data and to calculate a doubling time of about 5 days and a case fatality rate of about 2 per 100. This involves nothing more than high school algebra.

    I then I applied these rates to project Massachusetts’s current count of Covid-19 cases as of 15 March 2020 into the future. When an epidemic begins, the pool of infected and once-infected persons tends to grow exponentially. Only at some uncertain point in the future does the growth rate assume the form of a logistic curve and gradually flatten. I made all this clear in my argument. In any event, the first month and a half or so of the table is a plausible projection of the illnesses and deaths that will occur, ceteris paribus, in the absence of government intervention. To my mind the projected level of human misery is a compelling argument for public health interventions like those imposed by Governor Baker..

    Since neither my data nor argument are bogus I’m forced to conclude that your use of “BS” illustrates the second use of that term.

    The hysterical hyperbole in your last paragraph is an example of a straw man argument. I never mentioned, let alone considered, any of the totalitarian scenarios, which you mention and which would seem the products of your own overwrought imagination.

    Get a grip, Sparkie!

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @utu
  17. KenH says:

    One of the linchpins of libertarianism is the free flow of goods and people across national borders. But as we’re seeing it also means the free flow of exotic viruses and other pathogens and exposes the fragility and flaws of globalism and inherent weaknesses in multiracial (thanks for mass third world immigration) Western states like America and Canada.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  18. NPleeze says:
    @KenH

    So if the Republicans are going to run against socialism for the 2020 election they’ll look like fools and hypocrites since that is what they are proposing now.

    I never tire of laughing at the fools who believe the DemoPublicans are two different parties.

    It’s a childish belief by those who look only at campaign rhetoric and not one iota at actual actions.

    Whenever the elites want something done, “bi-partisanship” (i.e., single party rule) becomes the order of the day and it gets done.

    Dohhh!

    • Replies: @bct2000
  19. peterAUS says:

    Compliments to Mr. Paul.

    Nice to see, for a change, that some authors on the “alt” do posses that combination of rational thinking, moral compass and fundamental courage.

    Rarity today.

  20. Fear does impair people’s judgment. Libertarians like Dr. Paul know that, and that explains why they invoke hyperinflation and economic catastrophes to try to scare people into going along with their fringe “hard money” schemes, which normies wouldn’t take seriously when they consider the matter less emotionally and with common sense.

    Fortunately ordinary people resist this propaganda because they can see from their own daily experience that fiat money works. You can’t “wire gold” around the world, like in a science-fiction transporter. But you can wire fiat money because it exists as an idea in the mind.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  21. James Corbett (Corbett Report) has a new video out explaining this overhyped “pandemic.” He calls it “Medical Martial Law,” and his views mirror those of Dr. Paul. Corbett’s video is available on YouTube (unless they’ve taken it down).

    Let’s stay calm as much as possible and remember what FDR said in the depths of the great depression: “The only thing we have to Fear is Fear Itself.” Trump should have used that line and kept Dr. Fauci away from the podium.

    • Agree: Three of Swords
    • Replies: @Three of Swords
  22. Brian Gerrish, Mike Robinson and David Scott with today’s UK Column News.

    [MORE]

    START – CoronaVirus (COVID-19) statistics to date
    Boris gives suggested advice but doesn’t close UK down
    Boris to hold daily press briefings for the near future to provide updated advice
    UK government approach is different to other countries who have major shutdowns
    Similar approach taken by Singapore, Taiwan & Hong Kong – virus is under control
    A look at the average death rate from various viruses worldwide: CV well below TB
    The political reaction across the world is unprecedented for the danger involved
    CoronaVirus and climate change: the same solutions apply…?
    UK Column viewer brings up some very salient points about the CV data being used
    Extinction Rebellion hijacks CoronaVirus: YouTube Christian Calgie
    Extinction Rebellion suggests marxism and communism are the way forward…
    BBC gets hot under the collar over people who challenge the official CV narrative
    BBC article writer suggests that the BBC and CNN are widely trusted…
    France set up a High Security Lab in Wuhan, China in 2011
    FTSE 100 now below 5000, US Federal Reserve drops interest rate to zero
    Carnage: Bank Of England now under new leadership
    38:46 – British Army acquires five new unmanned AI vehicles
    DoT: future of transport regulatory review – call for evidence
    41:30 – OFCOM/ICO giving evidence – a discussion of online political advertising
    Online Harms legislation to be used to control election interference
    42:55 – Alex Salmond on trial: update
    45:16 – Scottish Family Party brings up disturbing video being used to teach children
    The Scottish government are advocating porn to teach children… https://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-16th-march-2020

  23. peterAUS says:

    Hahahahaha……….

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/15/economy/federal-reserve/index.html

    Beautiful.
    Not because “they” are playing us up; because how dumb “we” all are.

    Oh, BTW, the article by David Goldman.
    Hilarious.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  24. Wait a minute, isn’t this ‘hoax’ doing libertarianism a huge favour in seeing trillions of fake wealth wiped out? On the one hand libertarians critique the financial elite for wanting to keep a moribund economic system afloat with cheap credit in perpetuity while on the other hand this same elite seem to be systematically sabotaging their whole operation.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  25. NPleeze says:
    @JimDandy

    Dunno, can’t get at BI b/c of adblockers.

    What is the death rate for those under 60? Newsmax (which references the BI article, which itself references a … CNN article, I guess it’s not “fake news” when you like what it says) reports that those results, if true, are an aberration and that WHO “guidelines and recommendations suggest that those seriously harmed by the virus are indeed disproportionately senior citizens”. From WHO’s FAQ:

    While we are still learning about how COVID-2019 affects people, older persons and persons with pre-existing medical conditions (such as high blood pressure, heart disease, lung disease, cancer or diabetes) appear to develop serious illness more often than others.

    Also the best data site I’ve found is WordOMeter, and on this page they break down the victims by age, sex and health condition. You can see the death rate drops precipitously at under 60, and I presume the 1.3% (of the seriously infected, who are the only ones tested) of those who die in their 50s have per-existing health conditions (since, if you look, the death rate for all age groups of those without pre-existing conditions is 0.9% – which is, with little doubt if you try to segment all those tables, those over 70).

    • Replies: @JimDandy
  26. NPleeze says:
    @peterAUS

    The explanation is so bare-faced pathetic: they reduced the rate to zero to “prevent the credit markets from freezing up”. How does a 1% cut “unfreeze markets”?

    Recession barely started and they’ve already blown their entire wad.

  27. NPleeze says:
    @advancedatheist

    You can’t “wire gold” around the world

    Look whose being irrational, lol. You can “wire” anything around the world when all you are wiring is title. You can’t wire the actual dollars, but the actual dollars aren’t going along the wire either – it’s just a book entry. And you can book entry anything, including goats, gold and bananas.

    • Replies: @advancedatheist
  28. Liza says:
    @SteveK9

    What is the ethnicity of all those “Italians” who supposedly have Corona virus? Are we even told? How can we find out? I read that there’s tons of Chinese living in Italy (they are there working for peanuts, of course; it ain’t just here).

  29. NPleeze says:
    @gumbotheclown

    seem to be systematically sabotaging their whole operation

    Nah, you can make money whenever any asset class changes value versus another.

    To explain with one example: money and real estate. Before a real estate bubble, assume money and real estate are valued fairly – the stasis. You buy a lot of real estate, heavily leveraged, b/c you know you are creating a real estate bubble with your media, banks, underwriters, etc. At the top of the bubble – after you have hyped it all you can and the value of RE vs. cash has increased – you sell and buy bonds or stay in cash. Then comes the “adjustment”, where the value of RE plummets and, in the flight to safety, the price of bonds goes up. See, you have made money coming and going.

    To trick to make this all work is to have the inside info to know when the bubbles will be pumped and when they will be burst. But this, of course, is entirely in the hands of the rulers, through their media, bank underwriting standards, corporations, etc.

    With derivatives, this task has been made trivially easy.

  30. @NPleeze

    What if the banks on the receiving end of a wired draft denominated in gold simply don’t have the gold coins in their vaults to honor it?

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  31. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Congratulations on your gold box. I have no idea why it was placed around your alarmist post. If there is a government cordon put in place, it would be poetic justice if you found yourself cut off from any source of supply because of it.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  32. Anon[343] • Disclaimer says:

    Im ptetty sure I had Covid19 in January. I had a watery mucosa that went from throat to chest (and was in sinus cavity), I coughed a ton, and felt “hot”, and was achy all over. I was proactive because I had to work. I took Elderberry gummies that had zinc and vitamin C. three times a day. I took Dayquil for 3 days, and drank an immune booster drink from the grocery (ginger, capascin, C, black pepper, and garlic). I took a ginger capsule for 4 days, twice a day (ginger is anti-viral and anti-bacterial).

    I was over it in 4 days. I didnt hit the gym and slept 8 hours or more for 4 straight nights. It was rough, but not nearly as rough as the swine flu was several years ago (that was truly awful, super sore all over). I probably had 20 cough lozenges every day for the first three days.

    Id be interested to see who is buying large amounts of stocks right now with the prices low.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  33. Corvinus says:
    @Twodees Partain

    “I have no idea why it was placed around your alarmist post”.

    Why don’t you actually make an effort to refute Jus’ Sayin’s position? Second, has Ron Paul been in on the meetings in the Trump Administration and public health officials?

  34. Corvinus says:
    @Anon

    “Im ptetty sure I had Covid19 in January.”

    Do you have any medical training to make that diagnosis?

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  35. @follyofwar

    Thanks for mentioning the video which is still on Youtube.

    For the general readership, the video is an excerpt from The Corbett Report #86 titled “Medical Martial Law” from 2009 which covers the history of various pandemic panics and the decades-long planning that has brought us to the current situation.

    Based on this information, we should also be very wary of what is going on regarding the virus or as one called it, “Plandemic”.

  36. @KenH

    I never harbored the notion that Donald Trump was any kind of man of principal, Ken. He just was on the right side of two very important issues – the “invade-the-world/invite-the-world” thing, as a CANDIDATE.

    I guess this one is the Socialist’s 9/11. The Totalitarians got their goodies the 1st time around.

  37. @NPleeze

    I am not clamoring for total government control you dipshit.

    WTF are you talking about?

    I have very little trust in the government and zero trust in the media.

    You seem to be totally unaware of what the virus has been up to around the world.

    Also….you seem to be stuck in the polarized position that the virus is some kind of “hoax,” and your confirmation bias won’t allow you to consider a middle path.

    I’ve spent a considerable amount of time trying to assess the level of danger that CV poses. There are Youtube clips from China and Italy, etc., and some of the clips are like a horror movie.

    As I said before, there is a balance to be found between screeching that the virus is a “hoax” (and pretending that anybody who shows concern is some kind of commie) and on the other end engaging in a media induced panic and grabbing everything off the store shelves.

    Sane people do research and weigh both sides.

    If people believe it’s a hoax, and they refuse to participate in social distancing, chances are that the virus will have an exponential growth and many people will be harmed.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  38. swamped says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    “The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature. One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future”…thus begins the great Enoch Powell’s ringing so-called ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech. But it is what comes after the introductory paragraphs which is of even greater & contemporary interest. For it is in this prescient address to a conference of Conservative Members of Parliament, 52 years ago, that MP (&former Health Minister) Powell tries vainly to warn the members & the nation of the perils not of a pandemic but of the plague of increased immigration & it’s lasting harm to society. Powell, in this memorable speech makes the stark prediction that :” In 15 or 20 years, on present trends, there will be in this country three and a half million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. That is not my figure. That is the official figure given to parliament by the spokesman of the Registrar General’s Office. There is no comparable official figure for the year 2000, but it must be in the region of five to seven million, approximately one-tenth of the whole population… The natural and rational first question with a nation confronted by such a prospect is to ask: ‘How can its dimensions be reduced?’ Granted it be not wholly preventable, can it be limited, bearing in mind that numbers are of the essence: the significance and consequences of an alien element introduced into a country or population are profoundly different according to whether that element is 1 per cent or 10 per cent.
    The answers to the simple and rational question are equally simple and rational: by stopping, or virtually stopping, further inflow, and by promoting the maximum outflow. Both answers are part of the official policy of the Conservative Party.
    It almost passes belief that at this moment 20 or 30 additional immigrant children are arriving from overseas in Wolverhampton alone every week – and that means 15 or 20 additional families a decade or two hence. Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancés whom they have never seen.”
    Powell went on at some length to flesh out the dangers of increased immigration & concluded with the chilling warning: “… the immigrant communities can organise to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided. As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see ‘the River Tiber foaming with much blood.’
    That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.”

    And so as the “discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician” in today’s Covid crisis; it likewise behooves us not to forget the original intentions of Powell’s stirring speech & “not knowingly shirk” discussion – now & after – of the avoidable evils of The Great Betrayal.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  39. NPleeze says:
    @advancedatheist

    Now you are talking about physical settlement.

    You have the same problem with cash. The receiving bank may not have the FRN to settle a withdrawal. That’s why banks have … moratoriums and withdrawal limits and even go bankrupt.

    But the point is, why would you want to get the physical gold from the bank? If you want physical gold you just go to the gold bullion store and use your gold-backed currency to buy the physical gold.

  40. Free speech aside, the level of tit-for-tat and anger over various comments and replies is really starting to hit the fan on Unz. Since when did Unz readers start acting like Antifa vs. ProudBoys? Instead of “check your privilege” maybe commenters should check their anger or something. Stop treating opinions as facts. Yikes!

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  41. NPleeze says:
    @Robert Dolan

    I am not clamoring for total government control

    Sure you were, boot-licker.

    You seem to be totally unaware of what the virus has been up to around the world.

    No, I just interpret the facts rationally, not like a scared little child crying for fear of the monsters in her closet.

    you seem to be stuck in the polarized position that the virus is some kind of “hoax,”

    LOL, now your idiocy level is off the charts. Scared little girls making up monsters.

    some of the clips are like a horror movie.

    B/c of some caskets? LOL. You want your safety blanket, or a safe space to play in? Go get one. But don’t use your childish paranoia to control everyone else.

    they refuse to participate in social distancing, chances are that the virus will have an exponential growth and many people will be harmed

    Social distancing makes sense for vulnerable groups – the aged and those with pre-existing medical conditions. They have a much higher death rate than flu – everyone else is about the same. But it’s good enough to warn them and make it voluntary.

    If you really want to enforce social distancing, you would need to close: subways; all air travel; all train travel; all bus travel; carpooling; 98% of work places; grocery stores (or at least only allow a few people in at a time); etc.

    And, again, why limit this to the latest manufactured hype? TB kills over a million per year, let’s shut down all travel to Africa … or Ukraine, where rates are high. It’s even more contagious than COVID-19(tm-Pentagon). Tens of thousands of lives could be saved each year in the US, and 100,000s globally, by shutting down society ahead of the flu season – imagine all those caskets lined up in a row! Like a horror movie!

  42. JimDandy says:
    @NPleeze

    I don’t like what it says in the CNN article. I asked you what’s going in in France, since you speak on the Coronavirus with a great deal of confidence.

    As for this:

    “While we are still learning about how COVID-2019 affects people, older persons and persons with pre-existing medical conditions (such as high blood pressure, heart disease, lung disease, cancer or diabetes) appear to develop serious illness more often than others.”

    Is anyone disputing the position that old people, sick people, and old sick people appear to develop serious illness more often than others? I’m certainly not. Mother Jones writes: “In France, 300 people with coronavirus are in intensive care; more than half of them are under the age of 60. Though coronavirus is understood to be particularly lethal among the elderly, France’s new numbers underscore the reality that younger generations can still face serious consequences.”

    That statement doesn’t really mean anything. But, saying that what’s going on in France is “an aberration” doesn’t really mean anything, either.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  43. nickels says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Numbers in the US, when you multiply cases by 10-30 to account for unknown cases, show cv is pretty much on par with the normal flu in terms of mortality rate.

  44. Good old libertarians always at a loss when someone, or in this case something, violates your NAP.

  45. Kali says:

    It occurs to me that the young and healthy among us can sensibly maintain contact and communications (including economic activity) whilst separating ourselves from the vulnerable, allowing social/health services to safely care for the vulnerable – delivering food, treatment, etc, to those at risk.

    I have no idea how much of the alarm surrounding covid19 is hype (though I’d suggest hype is a huge part of the tacticts being used against us, to increase government power and usher in marshal law.

    Here in Portugal the lock-down is beginning in force: schools closed, people laid-off work, restraunts, supermarkets, etc, restricted to 3 customers at a time, hand sanitisers at every enterance/exit…
    But there is a huge portion of the population which is fit to carry on as usual, producing food, power, and other essentials.

    Marshal law, curfews, restricted travel, etc… all the knee-jerk panicked reactions we can expect from “authorities” will only serve to increase government control of our lives.
    There are much more sensible, intelligent responses available to us if only we don’t panic and allow fear to dictate.

    Kali.

  46. NPleeze says:
    @JimDandy

    saying that what’s going on in France is “an aberration” doesn’t really mean anything, either.

    I don’t know what’s going on in France, I’m not on the ground. By aberration I mean it does not follow the other areas, and that could be either because it is a mutated form, or the data is just wrong and being repeated since nobody bothers fact-checking anymore. Esp. not when in hysteria mode.

    What I do know is this virus has been traveling the planet for at least 4 months (even longer in China) and so far there are only a few thousand deaths, which is miniscule.

    What I do know is that the current response by government is draconian and wrong.

    What I do know is that I advise old and vulnerable folks to maintain social distance and wear masks when they cannot.

    What I strongly believe is that this is all part of an agenda to further the totalitarian state. Just like 9/11 hype was.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
  47. Tom Verso says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    For a profoundly scientific presentation of the

    The Coronavirus Hoax

    see the following video and text.

    https://www.wodarg.com

    For the text: read down past German to the English article “1.3.2020 Corona-Hype:…”

    • Thanks: utu
    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  48. @Tom Verso

    What he’s saying about the Chinese government reaction is palpably false. Far from hyping it up, when doctors in Wuhan flagged this new virus amongst themselves (let alone informing anyone else) they were immediately censored and punished. It was only when hospitals started to get overwhelmed with cases and people were even dying on the streets that the government belatedly had to admit the truth of what was happening. They lost a month in which they could have taken radical early measures, and of course one of the principal whistleblowing doctors was killed by C-19. So one of Wodarg’s main assertions, indeed as far as I can see the one upon which he builds his argument, is palpably and, fair to say, mendaciously false. I note that his website has been blacklisted by Wikipedia. I note also that he nowhere mentions the difference between C-19 and the common coronaviruses he refers to: that it is not like flu, in that it can have far more severe effects in terms of the experience, and it is more likely to cause death by pneumonia – that’s precisely why ICUs are overwhelmed by C-19 patients. If it was all just a normal flu epidemic, hospitals would be coping (even the UK’s NHS managed the latest flu epidemic, which came earlier than usual in late 2019) and wouldn’t be desperately trying to get more incubators.

  49. JimDandy says:
    @NPleeze

    The link to the counter page you sent me is pretty compelling.

    As for this:

    “What I strongly believe is that this is all part of an agenda to further the totalitarian state. Just like 9/11 hype was.”

    There is no doubt in my mind that, at the very least, the bad guys are not letting a good crisis go to waste. But I think Italy genuinely scared a lot of people.

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  50. @Robert Dolan

    when doctors in Wuhan flagged this new virus amongst themselves (let alone informing anyone else) they were immediately censored and punished.

    That was exactly his point. The doctors doing the flagging had no epidemiological evidence that the new virus was actually causing the problem. The ones who were “punished”, like the ophthalmologist, were not in a position to verify the epidemiological evidence, as it wasn’t sufficient at the time.

  51. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @SteveK9

    The average age of death from the Covid-19 virus in Italy is 81.

    https://www.iss.it/web/guest//comunicati-stampa/-/asset_publisher/fjTKmjJgSgdK/content/id/5286166

    If you are under 50, the death rate is no different than any other flu.

    In addition, no one knows what the real death rate is since no one knows how many people have contracted the virus and have not exhibited any noticeable symptoms. The death rate is most likely much lower than anyone has stated.

    Dr. Ron Paul is absolutely right on this one.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  52. This is frustrating. Two things can be true at once. The left is politicizing this against Trump. However, this virus is highly contagious and if not kept in check, has the potential to spiral out of control with EXPONENTIAL growth. Also studies show many who recover will have permanent damage to their lungs and kidneys. We’re talking about crippling life long consequences and you can get the virus all over again. Medical professionals worldwide are rightly concerned about this. So it will get worse because one side is convinced, “just the flu bro, drawing it out to hurt Trump,” therefore people don’t take proper precautions, and another side stirring panic and doing dumb shit like massing inside stores, when people should be avoiding crowds and busy stores etc., spreading the disease while fighting over tp for some stupid reason.

    • Agree: Republic
    • Disagree: NPleeze
  53. @anon

    The Italy case must be understood in its unique context, not closely correlated with the situation in USA:

    The Chinese Workers Who Assemble Designer Bags in Tuscany. April 2018
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany
    The Chinese residents of Prato have arguably revived the fading manufacturing city, which has the highest proportion of immigrants in Italy.

    and
    CORONA VIRUS EXCLUSIVE: WHY ITALY? Mar 12 2020
    https://www.altnewsmedia.net/news/corona-virus-exclusive-why-italy/

    Many Italians in Northern Italy have sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese workers from Wuhan and Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct flights between Wuhan and Northern Italy. This continued post outbreak, so is it mere coincidence that Northern Italy is now Europe’s hotspot for Corona Virus?

    The murky reality is that the EU turned a blind eye to vast numbers of illegal Chinese immigrants working in Italian factories. The ‘Open Borders’ EU will of course try to keep this under wraps, but reality is, the Chinese Mafia operate Italian textile factories with tens of thousands of illegal immigrants shipping ‘made in Italy’ goods into China and elsewhere.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  54. JasonT says:

    The coronavirus itself is not a hoax, but the reaction to it is a hoax. What will not be a hoax is the totalitarian regime that is coming into place in the Western world as a result of the hoax. If Amerikans were as freedom-loving as they claim to be, they would not be meekly accepting of this hoax as they seem to be – they would be in the streets fighting for their freedom.

    • Agree: NPleeze
  55. Anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    I live in Massachusetts (Metrowest Boston) and contracted COVID-19 in the end of February as did my wife a week after me. It’s like a nasty flu but tougher to beat. My wife had a harder time with it and had nasty coughing and heavy lung congestion. But it finally went away. I think anything more than a simple public service campaign regarding this COVID-19 is overreacting.

    The response to this virus is not even in the same universe as the reality of it. There has to be a larger agenda simply using this COVID-19 as an excuse.

    • Thanks: Digital Samizdat
  56. NPleeze says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    That wives’ tale(about only Chinese getting sick, outside China in general and in Italy in particular) has been debunked countless times in countless ways.

    For one, the vast majority of the dead are in the 80s. You are telling us they are importing 80 yos to work in Italian sweatshops? Try using your brain for a moment instead of succumbing to hysteria.

    • Replies: @Liza
    , @utu
  57. Liza says:
    @NPleeze

    https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

    Excerpt:

    A Swiss medical doctor provided the following information on the current situation in order to enable our readers to make a realistic risk assessment.

    According to the latest data of the Italian National Health Institute ISS, the average age of the positively-tested deceased in Italy is currently about 81 years. 10% of the deceased are over 90 years old. 90% of the deceased are over 70 years old.

    80% of the deceased had suffered from two or more chronic diseases. 50% of the deceased had suffered from three or more chronic diseases. The chronic diseases include in particular cardiovascular problems, diabetes, respiratory problems and cancer.

  58. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:

    The Chinese Workers Who Assemble Designer Bags in Tuscany. April 2018
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany
    The Chinese residents of Prato have arguably revived the fading manufacturing city, which has the highest proportion of immigrants in Italy.

    First of all, your article states that the immigrants came from Wenzhou, not Hubei province (Wuhan). In fact, your article states Recently, many Chinese mill owners have started hiring workers from countries including Syria, Pakistan, and Senegal. Since this article is two years old, it suggests that few if any workers are still coming from China.

    CORONA VIRUS EXCLUSIVE: WHY ITALY? Mar 12 2020
    https://www.altnewsmedia.net/news/corona-virus-exclusive-why-italy/

    Many Italians in Northern Italy have sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese workers from Wuhan and Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct flights between Wuhan and Northern Italy.

    There are no direct flights between Wuhan and Northern Italy. Your article is hysterical disinformation.

    The simple explanation why Italy has the highest death rate in Europe is because it has the oldest population in Europe.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  59. utu says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    I am not questioning your ability of doing calculation but I think you should question the input data you have used. Unfortunately you do not sound like a person who questions himself.

    For example from this: “9,776 infections in China and 213 deaths, as of 31 January” you can’t accurately estimate the CFR. If you assume that CFR=213/9,776 you are grossly overestimating. There must have been many more people than 9,776 who were infected but who did not showed up in the system because the lack of symptoms or very mild symptoms so people did not seek help. It is estimated now that 80% of infected does not require medical assistance. Furthermore I am dubious that on Jan 31 all 9,776 cases or all 213 deaths were tested positive for the virus. Furthermore for Wuhan population of 11 millions and China mortality rate of 7/1,000 we get monthly expected number of deaths for Wuhan 6,400 among which many are elderly who die of infections and pneumonia complications. Among them there are the 213 who were diagnosed as victims of the new disease. How many of those would have died anyway because they were already dying?

    But once the media announced there was a deadly epidemics everybody who had slight symptoms and all the hypochondriacs would run to hospitals seeking help, where they would contract infections and be subjected to substandard treatments because of the overwhelmed system. During SARS epidemics in Toronto in 2003 70% of all SARS infections were acquired in hospitals.

    I do not deny the existence of the new disease. I do not advocate the do nothing approach. But I strongly believe that hysteria makes things worse and also believe that locking down is not the best approach. We have a benefit of testing that we are not utilizing. China in early stages did not have this benefit, We should follow Taiwan approach. Lots of testing and tracking down the infected and potentially infected and do the follow ups. Keep hunting the infected and quarantine them instead of quarantine the whole population.

    I do agree with Dr. Leopoldo Salmaso:

    Nuova intervista all’epidemiologo Salmaso
    https://www.lantidiplomatico.it/dettnews-il_tasso_di_letalit_del_coronavirus_in_italia__almeno_10_volte_inferiore_ai_dati_ufficiali_nuova_intervista_allepidemiologo_salmaso/5496_33545/

    Q. Well, can you tell us more about the last seasonal influenza in Italy of which the official data are available?

    A. Yes, on the seasonal flu 2017-18, it appears that 8.7 million people turned to the family doctor / pediatrician by phone for a “flu-like syndrome”. Less than 1/4 were visited by the doctor. No fewer than 18,000 people died “with flu complications”, mostly the elderly. Of those 18,000, only 173 (1 in 100) died in a ICU ward and in all there were 764 “serious cases of confirmed flu in ICU patients”. That is, the other 17,000 people died at home, or in a nursing home, or in some hospital ward, with no confirmed diagnosis of flu. If the media had unleashed the current uproar two years ago, no less than 75,000 patients with influenza would have clogged up the reanimations, at the rate of 750 new admissions every day (so far we have hospitalized 650 in resuscitation in all). These data confirm that we are facing a panic epidemic

    .

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    , @Anon
  60. utu says:
    @NPleeze

    Correct. Take for example the area of Prato (in Tuscany near Florence) which has the highest density of Chinese population in Italy. Wiki lists 11,882 (6.32%) for Prato while the highest absolute number is Milan 18,918 (1.43%). The numbers are probably outdated as most likely they do not include illegal residents. On March 11 Italy had 12,246 cases. But Prato had only 21 cases.

  61. Alistair says:

    On the surface, the Coronavirus seems to be a mild form of biological warfare which was deployed by the US in Iran, but it went out of control. this could be a sort of mild biological warfare unleashed by the US on its adversaries with an “acceptable level of collateral cases” elsewhere ???

    It appears the epicenters of infection are the city of Qom in Iran along with Wuhan in China;
    Qom is a sort of seminary for the Iranian clerics education — the main ideological center of Shiai activism — it’s an isolated city at the edge of the Iranian desert — Qom along with Wuhan are Epicentres of the Infection; Iran and China are both US’s adversaries; the Coronavirus risk to breakdown the Iranian society — already under the most sever US economic sanctions, the Virus can put an end to the Islamic Republic Regime. while the infection has partially put China out of business with possible risk of disruption in the global supply chain, the Virus put a ceasefire on the US Trade War with China and South Korea – at least temporarily until the November US presidential election — China and South Korea are both economic adversaries of the US and subject of Trump Trade Wars – if they’re kept out of the global supply chain, the gaps will be filled by American manufacturers, hence, the appearance of prosperity will be felt in the US right before the November election.

  62. @Anon

    First, how can you even know you had Covid-19 rather than a a bad case of the flu. Based on the time frame you yourself have provided, it’s extraordinarily unlikely that you were ever tested for the novel Corona virus anywhere in Massachusetts. https://www.necn.com/news/coronavirus/for-the-sick-an-agonizing-wait-for-testing-in-massachusetts/2246762/

    I have worked in epidemiology and related areas for over twenty-five years. Many friends and colleagues are epidemiologists and/or medical doctors. Some have considerable experience and knowledge of infectious diseases. All whom I know are literally terrified of a full-blown pandemic with the potential to rival 1918-1920 if immediate and stringent public health measures aren’t taken. Most have been practicing self-quarantine for at least several weeks. None is part of a conspiracy to permanently increase government power.

    Covid-19 appears to be at least as infectious as the 1918 Influenza virus. Current data suggest that it may have a similar case fatality rate. Among those who survive the disease a sizable minority seem to have suffered permanent damage to vital organs. And, contrary to popular myth, these serious effects appear not to to limited to the elderly, the immuno-comprised, and those weakened by other underlying diseases. https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/coronavirus-doctor-says-lung-scans-for-young-patients-were-nothing-short-of-terrifying/.

    Pandemics and the more local epidemics which compose them always start slow, seem to grow slowly, and then explode exponentially. In the early stages, many unfamiliar with this pattern are lulled into complacence and are hostile to the imposition of necessary but inconvenient public health measures. By the time enough of these individuals realize their mistake, it’s usually too late to take effective action. The disease will have become endemic and impossible to contain.

    I regret that I apparently lack the rhetorical power to convince readers of the danger which they are facing. Perhaps a condign practical epidemiological lesson is the only way to drive the point home..

    • Troll: nickels
    • Replies: @Anon
  63. @utu

    I’m not absolutely confident about anything. There is a certain amount of uncertainty here. Something like the “fog of war”. However, back at the end of January, I used calculations, based on the official numbers coming out of China, to project the worldwide numbers of Covid-19 cases and fatalities through February, March, and April. Up to now my projections have matched official data quite well. This suggests that currently the number of Covid-19 cases doubles about every four or five days and the case fatality rate is greater than 1% and perhaps approaches 2%.

    Of course, in the real world, exponential growth cannot be sustained indefinitely. The ultimate “shape” of an epidemic or pandemic is a logistic curve. At some point exponential growth will cease and the number of new cases will gradually approach zero. Towards the end of April my projections have a surreal quality but they seem realistic up to that point.

    Clearly a majority of epidemiologists, medical experts, and public health officials share my general concern since they were seeking interventions of the type we’re seeing now several weeks ago.

    That politicians were so slow to consider and act on their concerns is certainly a powerful counter to the theory that current public health measures are the result of a conspiracy to increase government power.

  64. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    I do not deny the existence of the new disease. I do not advocate the do nothing approach. But I strongly believe that hysteria makes things worse and also believe that locking down is not the best approach. We have a benefit of testing that we are not utilizing.

    I have similar feelings. Like you, I have no reason to deny the disease, but the degree of hysteria and media coverage of this makes it feel like a wargame or emergency fire drill, in which maximum hysteria is promoted so that it simulates an extreme pandemic as much as possible and ordinary citizens take it seriously and acquiesce to various political agendas. It also feels similar to the immediate aftermath of 9/11, when legislation curbing civil liberties such as the Patriot Act was quickly rammed through when people were fearful

  65. @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Not so, JBL.

    Antibiotics may be useless directly against a corona virus, but the opportunistic bacterial and fungal infections that can arise shortly after the virus devastates the lung tissues will definitely need antibiotics to fight them, as the body has been drained of its fighting capacity by the virus.

    This one-two punch of viral then bacterial/fungal attack on the deep alveolar lung tissues is what very often kills people with covid-19.

    See here, from a top expert: https://thesaker.is/how-to-treat-coronavirus-infection-covid-19/

    (Btw, as an audiophile, I love your initials. My first great speaker system was JBL. Ahhh, those days of carefree youth…… )

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
  66. Anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    You’re right. I neither contracted it nor was tested for it in Massachusetts. I don’t want to provide specifics other than I’m in my late 50’s, have a history of medical issues, and was positive for COVID-19 and recovered. It was like the flu with a little more lung congestion. I’m so glad I don’t have it now because after watching all the news lately I’d be scared shitless and picking out my coffin.

    I don’t have a background in anything medical/epidemiological so maybe I don’t comprehend the danger. But my intuition is that this whole thing is an insane overreaction.

  67. Alistair says:

    The Coronavirus is probably a US manufactured Biological warfare that has been deployed in Iran to destabilize the Iranian government and to provoke a regime change in that country, but the infection went out of control, it had become the global pandemic.

    The use of such weapon had probably been authorized by President Trump, based on the recommendation of Israel’s PM Benjamin Netanyahu — the Bio weapon was used to cause mayhem in Iran and hence to provoke a regime change in that country but it went out of control and affected 100 other countries, including the USA; this is called “the collateral damages” .

    • Agree: anarchyst
  68. Meanwhile, the consequences of closing schools become apparent; the devil makes work for idle hands.

    Passing through Medford, Oregon, my wife heard that bored kids had been setting off stink bombs in stores.

    Medford, of course, is virtually all-white. I wonder what our little nippers of color will be getting up to?

    Will the resulting death toll surpass that which would have resulted if they’d simply been kept in school to face the unspeakable ravages of the Corona Virus?

    Why, yes. I’m sure that it will. Leaving a few million black adolescent males to seek recreational opportunities on their own will kill more of them — and others — than the Corona Virus ever would have had they just been kept in school.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  69. onebornfree says: • Website

    A timely reminder:The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken

    This just in:

    1]Your health and wellbeing is entirely your own responsibility, not the governments.

    2]Its all a scam- The government doesn’t give a flying phuck about yours or anyone elses health, it cares only about its health [at your expense]. Believing government statistics and info from _any_countries government is a mugs game, as is believing in any “government recommended” mandatory treatment for a “virus” [whatever _that’s_ supposed to be- viruses are still 100 % theoretical at this time.]

    3] Even if it did care about yours and everyone elses health,[which it doesn’t], because government “solutions” nearly always fail, the absolute worst thing the individual can do is trust _any_ proffered government solution to problems having to do with health, such as mandatory travel restrictions, city/state lockdowns, home confinement, business shutdowns, enforced vaccinations and medical quarantines etc. etc. etc.

    4] As almost the entire health care system in the US is socialized/run by the iron fist of government- including nearly all hospitals, doctors and associated, and because government “solutions” rarely, if ever work, the worst thing that the individual can do is trust the treatment and advice routinely doled out by those institutions and the people who work within them. So stay out of /away from all hospitals and /or mandatory isolation units , and away from all mandatory vaccinations and pharmaceuticals “prescribed” [ie mandated] by M.D’s etc. , “by hook or by crook”, unless you want to risk dying from a vaccine, or “merely” via enforced quarantine/lockdown.

    Again: just like the rest of your life, your physical and mental health is entirely your responsibility, not the government and its numerous “authorized” [ie government licensed] psycophants.

    Again: “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.”

    Regards, onebornfree
    http://onebornfree.blogspot.com/

    • Replies: @Biff
  70. @JimDandy

    A high Italian official just admitted that only two deaths in Italy could be attributed to COVID:

    https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/17/corona-bologna-the-truth-begins-to-leak-out/

    • Replies: @NPleeze
    , @JimDandy
  71. NPleeze says:
    @Twodees Partain

    That’s old (and now inaccurate) news. The ISS released a report today (March 17, 2020), which studied 355 (or about 18%) of 2003 deaths (and updated the earlier results, which are the ones that official was speaking on).

    The average deceased had 2.7 chronic conditions (in addition to COVID-19). They came out as follows:

    * Ischemic heart disease: 117 (33.0%)
    * Atrial fibrillation: 87 (24.5%)
    * Stroke: 34 (9.6%)
    * Arterial hypertension: 270 (76.1%)
    * Diabetes mellitus: 126 (35.5%)
    * Dementia: 24 (6.8%)
    * BPCO: 47 (13.2%)
    * Active cancer in the last 5 years: 72 (20.3%)
    * Chronic liver disease: 11 (3.1%)
    * Chronic kidney failure: 64 (18.0%)

    12 patients (3.4% of the study) had no pathologies; 84 (23.7%) had 1 pathology; 90 (25.4%) had 2 pathologies; and 169 (47.6%) had 3 or more pathologies.

    Also interesting is that the deaths were spread into the following age groups:

    * 0-30: 0 (0.00%)
    * 30-39: 5 (0.25%)
    * 40-49: 12 (0.60%)
    * 50-59: 56 (2.80%)
    * 60-69: 173 (8.63%)
    * 70-79: 707 (35.30%)
    * 80-89: 852 (42.54%)
    * 90+: 198 (9.89%)

    Obviously the bulk of the dead are the old and sick. However, the chronic conditions (such as hear disease, hypertension, and diabetes) can be survived for decades. One can’t dismiss these deaths under the rubric “they would have died anyway” (everyone will die anyway), but it sure does put a focus on WHO is vulnerable and WHO, if anyone, should be the subject of mandatory quarantine.

    E.g., obviously children in school aren’t among them – there were zero deaths in that category.

    Now watch some idiot come back with: “you want to kill all the children!”

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Twodees Partain
  72. nickels says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    .2% seems reasonable if the anecdotes about the particular strain of nasty flu this year are to be believed along with the likelihood this thing has been around for some time,

  73. Biff says:
    @onebornfree

    You have cried wolf so many times, who’s gonna believe you now?

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  74. KA says:

    It is potentially dangerous for people above 60 with comorbidities . The bad part of it is the high infectivity and higher chances of the virus staying in environment longer than other viruses .

    But the panic seems to be overblown . While the protective measures that could have been taken were intentionally ignored ,downplayed and even discouraged . Bringing symptomatic with asymptomatic was downright wrong. Not allowing testing by labs in Washington state was wrong . Blaming China and not trying to understand the infection was wrong .

    Why there is still shortage over the counter of simple protective measures ?

    Closing school and college in January for 3 months and canceling summer break would have been an acceptable response .

    What I find is that the stock market was teetering . China’s shutdown pushed it over the cliff . The hoax / panic driven bailout helps Wall Street .

    Yes, I believe that Wall Street would have been exposed and would have found itself begging for public money .

    A bail out of this proportion without this panic wouldn’t have materialized .

  75. KA says:

    Zombies could kill the economy.
    Ruchir Sharma
    NYT 3/17/2020 Op- Ed

    Discusses the bad situation Wall Street has been in for last 12 years and is still in.
    This time bailout might be like administering oxygen to someone with no blood reaching the lungs anymore .

  76. 22pp22 says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Thank you for your literate and informed post.

  77. I am very fond of Ron Paul, who is a textbook libertarian if anyone is. And like other libertarians, he has no room in his world view for microbes and many other biological aspects of life. His analysis isn’t really based on the real facts of covid-19; it’s based on his fundamental belief in the self-ownership principle. He is like those people who reject carbon-based global warming because every man and woman has a fundamental right to burn whatever he or she owns; there cannot be bad consequences to that, because libertarianism simply wasn’t built to comprehend ecology. Property rights in microbes can’t be assigned, except perhaps for research labs; ergo the government has no right to interfere. Ninety percent of the time his philosophy, which boils down essentially to “Live and let live,” is wonderful. But there are issues — immigration for instance and now epidemics — where it is simply incompetent to guide us.

  78. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @NPleeze

    That’s old (and now inaccurate) news. The ISS released a report today (March 17, 2020), which studied 355 (or about 18%) of 2003 deaths (and updated the earlier results, which are the ones that official was speaking on).

    So now, according to the updated study you cite, 3 instead of only 2 people can be shown to have died from Covid-19 (deaths of people with 0 pathologies testing positive for Covid-19). Of course we can make this statistic really scary by stating it is a 50% increase.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.epicentro.iss.it%2Fcoronavirus%2Fbollettino%2FReport-COVID-2019_17_marzo.pdf

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    , @NPleeze
  79. Tom Verso says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Another (i.e. see previous ‘reply’ to this comment) excellent scientific discussion of the ‘pandemic’ hoax.

    Note:

    By Scientific Discussion, I mean discourse consistent with the epistemological standards of what is considered ‘Scientific Knowledge’.

    Specifically,

    All scientific knowledge takes the form of two grammatical structures:

    1) Empirical propositions (i.e. factual statements) that are true or false based on evidence that any competent researcher can verify.

    2) Conclusions of deductive arguments inferred from true empirical premises consistent with the rules of valid logical deduction.

    • Replies: @Tom Verso
  80. Tom Verso says:
    @Tom Verso

    O0ps Forgot to put in links to the above comment

    A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data

    By JOHN P.A. IOANNIDIS MARCH 17, 2020

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/?fbclid=IwAR2ni7vMdVxAyARb1w4eqP4U-hPSd2LrA2jy2xKwcq1TQOMF7A390tzpqj4

    Chances Are War on Corona Is a Fiasco in the Making. Politicians Are Rushing to Drastic Measures Without Reliable Data

    https://www.anti-empire.com/chances-are-war-on-corona-is-a-fiasco-in-the-making-politicians-are-rushing-to-drastic-measures-without-reliable-data/

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    , @anon
  81. @NPleeze

    “One can’t dismiss these deaths under the rubric “they would have died anyway”

    That isn’t what is being claimed. The claim is that, in a patient with such preexisting vulnerabilities, another infection could trigger pneumonia. Nice try, but you really should make up your mind what your argument is to be before starting to argue.

    Your argument appears to be simply that the earlier press release has been debunked by a later press release. That isn’t really very convincing, noob.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  82. @anon

    I doubt the guy will own the fallacy he just pushed, but it’s good of you to try. He just earned a place on my ignore list. Good point you just made, BTW.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  83. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tom Verso

    Great Post! Unlike the alarmists, JOHN P.A. IOANNIDIS Is someone who actually knows something about statistics.

    The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

    H. L. Mencken

  84. utu says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    You: 2+3=5

    I: Yes, in general x+y=z but there are reasons why x≠2 and y≠3 and thus z≠5

    You: 2+3=5

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  85. NPleeze says:
    @Twodees Partain

    I pushed a fallacy? All I did was update the data, and this means in your absurd paranoid mind that I support medical martial law, or maybe killing all old people, or some other bizarre absurdity that the ubiquitous idiots push in their comments by the busload?

    Americans really have become utterly retarded. Public schooling? Fluoride in the water? Who knows, but logic is nowhere to be found in the land of the Idiots

  86. NPleeze says:
    @anon

    3 instead of only 2 people can be shown to have died from Covid-19 (deaths of people with 0 pathologies testing positive for Covid-19).

    Actually the study says 12, so it’s, in fact, a 600% increase in mortality for the healthy! 🙂

    I was just updating the data, bro, since yours was old. I considered it a normal part of discourse, to update dated information, if you look at my other posts (which most are too lazy to do before pulling out the proverbial knives) I think this is entirely over-hyped and society is in mass hysteria.

    • Replies: @anon
  87. NPleeze says:
    @Twodees Partain

    The claim is that, in a patient with such preexisting vulnerabilities, another infection could trigger pneumonia.

    I have no idea what you’re trying to say. My point is, yes, most deaths are of the old with chronic diseases, but their deaths are still being greatly accelerated vis-a-vis a normal flu or pneumonia. That’s been aptly demonstrated by the death tools.

    Your argument appears to be simply that the earlier press release has been debunked by a later press release.

    I can see how a low IQ moron could think that.

  88. JimDandy says:
    @Twodees Partain

    I’m going to ask many people this question: Why not put everyone over 70 under extreme quarantine, along with very sick people, and then loosen everyone else’s movement to help save the economy?

    How would that be more extreme than what we’re doing and what we’r heading for?

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @Kali
  89. @utu

    A few of the commenters here, including you, as well as this other post on the Unz Review https://www.unz.com/article/thoughts-of-a-semi-self-quarantiner/ have caused me to moderate my dogmatism, at least until we get a better understanding of the new Corona virus and Covid-19.

    The overarching issue is that the USA and all other countries with free market economies are faced with a nightmarish and probably insoluble policy conundrum/dilemma, as described just below. I use the word “insoluble” advisedly because we are currently operating in a “fog of war” situation. We lack the data needed to make a fully informed choice between two broad policy options, both of which carry potentially catastrophic risks. Yet we must make this choice now.

    On the one hand, if stringent public health measures are not put in place and the current pandemic is allowed to run its natural course, hundreds of millions may be sickened, tens of millions may die, and some as yet unknown portion of the survivors may have permanent, disabling damage to vital organs. The worse projections suggest that health care systems will be overwhelmed to the point that many millions will be denied life-saving care. In this case there will be permanent long-term damage to these systems that will require decades of rebuilding. Historically, uncontrolled pandemics have profound, long term social and cultural impacts that are difficult to gauge. Standing against this, bad pandemics clear much human deadwood, i.e., pensioners like myself, from the economy.

    Taking the opposite approach – the one I favored absolutely until I engaged with the more informed and rational commenters here and elsewhere – and imposing stringent public health measures lasting for many months will disrupt economies, which are already alarmingly fragile, to an extent comparable with the Great Depression. Tragically, those who would be most affected are already living on the edge of economic disaster. Much of the middle class would also suffer serious economic disruptions.

    The engines currently maintaining economies in the developed world are consumer expenditures and massive, overwhelming debt in all sectors and at every level of the economy. If stringent public health measures are enacted, those most affected, e.g., workers in the food service, entertainment, hospitality, and tourism, industries, will be left without even the meager financial resources they have now. Without government assistance they will lose housing, food, and hope. Meanwhile, these same people, a major segment of the consumer economy, will be unable to continue the consumption that currently helps maintains the economy of the USA and other countries. It is imperative that in a situation like this, these people receive help. Otherwise a catastrophic collapse of political, social, and economic systems is almost inevitable.

    Small businesses would be similarly impacted by stringent public health measures, as would even the largest corporations in industries like those mentioned above. The ultimate impact on the economy will be even greater.

    So if governments choose not to let the current pandemic run its course they would have to support those individuals and small businesses, who face economic and personal catastrophe absent government support. The continued spending on consumer goods by these individuals and businesses is vital to maintaining the economy. Governments would also have to support industries hardest hit by necessary public health measures. Without such support, the likely collapse of these industries would cause a ripple effects that would bring further catastrophe.

    Unfortunately, the devil is in the details. Governments that choose to impose strict public health measures to control the pandemic would need to provide subsidies to affected individuals, households, and businesses. Romney’s guess of $1,000 per individual/household per month is probably not far off the mark. But how would governments decide who gets money, how much, and by what means? What businesses would deserve government support and what forms might this support take? How might all this be accomplished without wreaking financial havoc on governments, economies, and financial systems already buried in overwhelming amounts of debt?

    The current pandemic may be one of Taleb’s black swans, an unexpected, unlikely occurrence that overwhelms the current world order’s homeostasis. In the worst case scenario, despite the best intentions and efforts of those running the show, we may be in for a catastrophic societal collapse, resembling that which rocked the Eastern Mediterranean circa 1170 BC. Sophisticated homeostatic systems like the current world order can maintain themselves against many internal and external shocks. But when homeostasis fails the resulting collapse can be swift and complete.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @utu
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
  90. Ron Unz says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    …imposing stringent public health measures lasting for many months will disrupt economies, which are already alarmingly fragile, to an extent comparable with the Great Depression. Tragically, those who would be most affected are already living on the edge of economic disaster. Much of the middle class would also suffer serious economic disruptions…So if governments choose not to let the current pandemic run its course they would have to support those individuals and small businesses, who face economic and personal catastrophe absent government support. The continued spending on consumer goods by these individuals and businesses is vital to maintaining the economy.

    Yes, the US seems extremely fragile against this sort of economic shock. After all, we were at the peak of the economic cycle and yet something like half of all Americans supposedly had less than $500 in available savings.

    I’ve repeatedly suggested that it seems quite possible that the Coronavirus outbreak was a US bioweapons attack against China (and Iran). If so, then the irony of the virus soon leaking back here and collapsing our own economy and society merely underscores the appalling stupidly and incompetence of our political elites:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/#comment-3773960

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/#comment-3775013

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/#comment-3775042

  91. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @NPleeze

    Actually the study says 12, so it’s, in fact, a 600% increase in mortality for the healthy!

    You are quoting the summary for Table 1 which appears to state Overall, 12 patients (3.4% of the sample) had 0 pathologies, 84 (23.7%) had 1 pathology, 90 had 2 pathologies (25.4%) and 169 (47.6%) had 3 or more pathologies.

    [MORE]

    However, if you actually read Table 1, it states that 3, not 12 people had 0 pathologies.

    Table 1.

    Number of pathologies
    N
    %

    0 pathologies
    3
    0.8

    1 pathologies
    89
    25.1

    2 pathologies
    91
    25.6

    3 or more pathologies
    172
    48.5

    Always good to read the actual data and not just summaries.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.epicentro.iss.it%2Fcoronavirus%2Fbollettino%2FReport-COVID-2019_17_marzo.pdf

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  92. NPleeze says:
    @anon

    Always good to read the actual data and not just summaries.

    You’re not telling me anything I hadn’t already seen and, as is typical on Unz, reaching conclusions without one iota of evidence.

    Yes there is an inconsistency, and based on other data, I concluded the error was in the table (both the text and the table numbers add up to the 355 used in the sample, they are just allocated differently – I chose the paragraph numbers as being more reliable because I often prepare/review papers which use tables and in my experience researchers will update the text but forget to update the table much more frequently than vice versa).

    But in any event, since I was making a joke, I chose the higher number. There’s no reason to think 3 or 12 is the right number.

    P.S. Another interesting observation, in terms of the age of victims, is section 8 on the last page:

    To date (March 17), 17 positive COVID-19 patients were under the age of 50. In particular, 5 patients were under 40, all of whom were male with serious pre-existing diseases (cardiovascular, kidney disease, psychiatric, diabetes, obesity).

    Can’t find anything on the pre-existing conditions of the 12 between 40 and 49.

    • Replies: @anon
  93. Anon[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @SteveK9

    Nearly all of Italian fatalities had a pre-existing condition and Italy has the oldest population in the whole of Europe

  94. utu says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Thank you for you answer.

    There is a moral imperative for fighting epidemics. This is because we want to save lives, lives of people who may be killed by the disease and lives of people who may die because of society deterioration and collapse. How many Chinese in Hubei prematurely have died because they could not get medical care or they run out of their medications during the lockdown?

    The are two extremes: (1) doing nothing (what UK was envisaging initially) and (2) locking down the whole society (what China was forced to do) are not the only options. It seems that Taiwan followed another way. I wrote in an earlier comment to you:

    “We have a benefit of testing that we are not utilizing. China in early stages did not have this benefit, We should follow Taiwan approach. Lots of testing and tracking down the infected and potentially infected and do the follow ups. Keep hunting the infected and quarantine them instead of quarantine the whole population.”

    In 1963 there was an outbreak of smallpox in Poland. Fortunately there was a vaccine but the key to containment of it was to cordon off the city with the outbreak and then isolating all people who might have had a contact with the infected within the city. Special quarantine hospitals and facilities were established. People who could have had a contact with an infected had to be tracked down and placed in quarantines away from general population. But more or less normal life and activities were going on in the city though restaurants and movie theaters were closed. Schools were closed because it was during summer vacations. But people were going to work to factories and offices:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/6nhzqd/54_years_ago_in_wroclaw_was_declared_a_state_of/
    Life in the city was subordinated to the rigors of a state of emergency: forced quarantine, enforced isolation of people suspected of contacts with an infected, treatment in closed ‘smallpox’ hospitals, forced vaccinations under penalty of perjury (fine and up to 15 years’ imprisonment), police outpost at the gates of the hospitals and on the city’s corners. On the surface, life went on normally. The war on smallpox resembled handles wrapped in bandages, chloramine bowls before entering offices, queues for vaccination, control of certificates. And signs on the door: “Welcome without shaking hands”.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X19311028
    One of the recent attacks of smallpox in Europe: A massive vaccination campaign during the epidemic in Wrocław in 1963

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  95. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @NPleeze

    Yes there is an inconsistency, and based on other data, I concluded the error was in the table

    If you knew that the report had data inconsistencies (clear errors), why did you introduce it in post number 73?

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  96. @utu

    You’re right. With the limited amount of information we currently have, moderation is probably the best approach. Japan is doing quite well without a lock down. There is a lot that can be done to prevent the spread of infection without incurring dire economic consequences.

    • Agree: mark green
  97. @Mustapha Mond

    I stand corrected. Thank you for the lesson.

  98. NPleeze says:
    @anon

    The report overall, despite this one error, is extremely informative, perhaps the best set of publicly available data, that’s why.

  99. @Robert Dolan

    This is what you hate:

    “But I would hate to see us wind up in a triage situation like in Italy, where hospitals have to refuse treatment to older people in order to make room to save younger people.”

    But what you will cause will be the deaths of many others who still had a life ahead of them.

  100. Nick Diaz says:

    Ron Paul

    “Over what? A virus that has thus far killed just over 5,000 worldwide and less than 100 in the United States? By contrast, tuberculosis, an old disease not much discussed these days, killed nearly 1.6 million people in 2017. Where’s the panic over this?”

    You are a freedom-loving idiot. A type that, for cultural and historic reasons, is fairly abundant in the U.S.

    The problem is not the number of people that the virus has killed, but the *potential* that the virus has to kill. This virus could infect as much as 75% of all the people on Earth. At a 3,4% death rate for those under 80, this means potentially over 250 million dead people. And the number sf probably greater than that, because the 3% death rate are for young people when those afflicted receive intensive care. Without exogenous oxygen support and fluids, the death rate is probably significantly higher.

    You are right that governments do seize special powers during crisis that are extremely difficult to make them give them up when the crisis is over. That is true. But the flip side of the coin are freedom-loving idiots like you who will spead the virus to thousands of people, many of whom will die, because you do not tolerate any restriction on your personal freedom no matter what. If you are contaminated by te virus and you spread it to 4 people, those four people spread it to 16, and then to 256, etc, in an exponential trajectory. In the end, you have single handedly infected 100,000 people and killed 300. all because your personal freedom is this supreme value.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  101. @Jus' Sayin'...

    The number of cases would double every four days, but before it reached 100% the rate would slow down and then precipitously drop. Yes, triage would have to be done as to who was treated in a hospital. One way or another triage is done anyway.

  102. @Biff

    You don’t have to “believe” anymore. Just look around.

  103. NPleeze says:
    @Nick Diaz

    Ironic that such a total idiot as you would call someone else an idiot.

    Death rate of 3.4% – only a fucking monumental retard believes that. There is absolutely no evidence for it, but some complete imbeciles grab some random data (like “confirmed cases” from testing only incredibly sick people, not everyone infected) and pronounce a result.

    If you count only very sick people in the denominator, lots of viruses have a much higher death rate.

    The only real study of a large population being effected is the Diamond Princess passenger and crew, numbering 3,177 and quarantined on a ship for six weeks in close proximity. 677 or so took ill; 7 (most of them in their 80s, the rest all 70yo or above) died. That is 0.2% of the ship’s population despite being the worst case scenario in terms of contagion.

    Death rate for those under 70 on the ship: 0.0%. That’s right: 0.0%. Why do you think they hysterical media doesn’t highlight that fact, EVER?

    “The problem is not the number of people that the virus has killed, but the *potential* that the virus has to kill.” Sure, and every single year, the flu has the POTENTIAL to be the Spanish flu and kill 10-20% of the infected (or 50% of the population). Wow, with that huge level of danger, we should never end martial law! What idiot thought about letting people go about their business in the first place? INSANITY!

  104. peterAUS says:

    Another, tiny, voice of reason in all this lunacy around:

    “Our” lunacy I mean.
    “They” are smart.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  105. So a world of 7 billion souls must drop everything, lose trillions and stop living on behalf of a quarter million.

    Those 250k must be some VERY important people!

    Fktard Trump continues to hire and surround himself with anti-Trumpers. This is the same Orange Buffoon who had a 13-season show about hiring the best people!

    corona.help

  106. @Jus' Sayin'...

    back at the end of January, I used calculations, based on the official numbers coming out of China, to project the worldwide numbers of Covid-19 cases and fatalities through February, March, and April. Up to now my projections have matched official data quite well.

    Oh really?

    On January 29 London Bob posted this table ( https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-faq/ comment #31):

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPe78gKX4AEjKoA?format=jpg&name=small

    and the data matched very well too, up to that date. And by February 18 there were supposed to be nearly 18 million infected and 400,000 dear. Now you tell us you have a better model that matched the actual reported data right up to today March 20. So what are your numerical predictions for the following three months based on this highly accurate model of yours?

  107. @peterAUS

    Good comment Aussie. That other thing … yeah.

  108. T. Weed says:

    Ron Paul, can you answer this question: the 1 trillion dollars being proposed to help out Americans who lost jobs, etc., because of Corona–where will this money come from? From the Fed? Lent to Americans as debt? Or from the government itself, debt free.

  109. gsjackson says:
    @Robert Dolan

    I’m not capable of evaluating his views as an epidemiologist, but as a sociologist describing the way government and media hype together a consensus of near 100 percent in short order he is, I think, spot on.

    Prediction: The emperor will be revealed as having no clothes in about a month, but still no one will say so. Trump will be claiming a stirring victory for the American people over a daunting foe, the media will be saying we dodged a bullet in spite of Trump’s criminal negligence. Then shortly we’ll be on to the next “crisis.” One after another until November at least.

  110. Kali says:
    @JimDandy

    I had the same thought myself a couple of days ago. But that would be the intelligent thing to do, and governments don’t do intelligent, they do intelligence – That is, intelligence gathering and data miming on behalf of their Masters.

    This overblown reaction we’re witnessing may not really be about the corona virus itself (though c.v does give them a great cover story).
    Right now they may well be honing their Global Lock-Down Preparedness Systems.
    Whilst symultaniously positioning for the global war they believe will give (((them))) permanent domain over the entire planet.

    Of course, it won’t, but (((they))) believe it will, and so they plan for it.

    At least that’system my current take on all this madness.

    Kali.

    • Replies: @gsjackson
  111. gsjackson says:
    @Kali

    Eric Dubay has some interesting thoughts along the same lines on his website. Funny, isn’t it, how he can be so right in bucking the standard narrative about (((them))), and just a blithering idiot in taking the same approach to the big picture? 😉

    • Thanks: Kali
  112. anarchyst says:
    @Corvinus

    One doesn’t need to be a “medical professional” to observe if they have all of the symptoms described.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  113. anastasia says:

    Yeah. Here’s a question for everyone. Ron Paul was a US Senator for many years. He is also a medical doctor. How come he has never been invited on FOX news to give HIS opinion. Is it because we have a free press?

  114. bct2000 says:
    @NPleeze

    George Wallace had it right over 50 years ago, there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between these parties.

  115. @Anon

    ” there has to be a larger agenda siply using this COVID-19 as an excuse”

    There sure is and that being a last ditch effort by GS and his leftist billionaire ( Democrat) honchos to stop DT from winning in Nov.

    And regarding the “socialist” actions being employed by DT : He has no choice, either he engages such
    “remedies”, or the media which hates his guts anyway, will excoriate him as being “heartless” and “cruel”: he is trapped in the proverbial “damned if you do and damed if you don’t” doublebind situation.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro jazz performer.

    • Replies: @Kali
  116. (CNN)Kentucky Republican Rand Paul is the first US senator to test positive for coronavirus, throwing an even greater sense of urgency into Senate negotiations over a massive stimulus package that had yet to come together Sunday afternoon.
    [Rand is the son of Ron.]

  117. @James Graham

    Now we will get description of symptoms of disease directly from horses mouth.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  118. Corvinus says:
    @anarchyst

    “One doesn’t need to be a “medical professional” to observe if they have all of the symptoms described.”

    He may had the symptoms, but it takes a trained expert to determine for certain if he had Covid-19. Something that Rand Paul should have taken into account rather than work out in the Senate gym and go swimming…despite being told by his own doctor to self-quarantine after being tested for coronavirus.

  119. @James Graham

    It is Senator Rand Paul, not Ron, that tested positive. Rand says that he feels fine, that he never had any symptoms, and he doesn’t think that he had contact with anyone who was infected. How many others are there like him who have had, or currently have, the virus and are completely oblivious to it because they were never tested and they haven’t felt or don’t feel sick? These people cannot possibly be accurately factored into the percentage of fatalities of the known cases because they are an unknown quantity of a tremendous multitude. But, when these numbers have been considered, the death rate reportedly drops from the currently hyped 3% to a negative number like .01% or less.

    More disinformation will only serve to undermine sound arguments in the minds of the panicked and uncertain. It should be obvious that what Dr. Paul is asserting is correct on all counts.

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  120. Kali says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    Hey Mr Mensa – Airborne Jazman,

    Do you really believe that this GLOBAL panic/lock-down is all about the U.S of A and your upcoming election?

    Asking for a friend… in Italy. 😉

    Just yanking yer chain dude. Cos I can.

    Love,
    Kali

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  121. @Kali

    You have to get up a lot earlier in the morning to yank my chain.

    Okay I will use the most simple terminology to explain what the underlying motivation is in this current artificial catastrophe : It’s all about the total takeover of all world govs by the SJ/Greta/Grün/Marxist/anti-private automobile/antifa lunatic cabal.
    It won’t be long before the climate crazies claim that the corona crisis is a result of capitalist greed and the solution being the inevitable installation of socialism world-wide.

    SJM

  122. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Alarmist propaganda. Who wrote this and how much do they pay you for posting?

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  123. @Zarathustra

    It’s his son Rand, the Senator. He’ll be fine.

  124. @anon

    Okay all of you; comment #10 posted dumb, “hysterical,” not using your brain disinformation.

    Check.

    But the opening statement of comment #10 was, Look at Italy in its own context.

    Responses to comment #10 stated that the wrong context was used: the correct context = only elderly are dying and “Italians are oldest people in Europe.”

    Elsewhere it’s been said that Northern Italy is as polluted as China. True? Not true? I have no clue.

    BUT none of the above situations applies to the entire USA, to the entire state of Pennsylvania, which has just been ordered Locked Down effective 8:pm EST. New York, Illinois & California locked down a couple days ago.

    Italy has been the model for US response to Covid19, but that model does not apply, for whatever reason.


    In other news: Jon Utley has died. RIP.

  125. @Cowtown Rebel

    Ron Paul is right, I believe. The idiots that are gloating about Rand testing positive miss the point of what Ron said. Ron is correct that MOST people, 80% have no symptoms or mild symptoms.

    99% fully recover.

    Many of the infected thought they had a normal cold and treated themselves at home with OTC meds.

    I had a bad cold a while back and lost my sense of taste and my hearing was impaired. Now today I’m reading that these are signs of Covid.

    I think that it’s likely that a large percentage of our populace has already been exposed because the government did not close the border when it should have.

    Clearly, our govt officials KNEW early on what was coming because they sold off their stocks to avoid the crash.

    At any rate, I still say that massive testing, isolate the infected, masks, hand washing, etc.,
    and get the rest of the populace back to work.

    The other aspect is the possibility that the elite helped this to happen to use it to impose their NWO agenda, get rid of cash, clamp down on the internet, punish dissidents, etc.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
  126. @Robert Dolan

    When they spread the passengers from the infected cruise ship to military bases all across the country, I realized then that they had just seeded the virus. Otherwise, why wouldn’t they have developed an Ellis Island strategy, housing those passengers in an offshore facility?

    And, I agree. Getting us used to staying in our homes and working from them; ordering out from Grub Hub and getting groceries delivered; using debit cards, direct deposit and automatic withdrawal; becoming increasingly fatter, dumber and more socially awkward. These are all conditioning tools being used to get us accustomed to A Bland New World.

    All of this self quarantining and government imposed restrictions reminded me of the old Creepshow segment, “They’re Creeping Up On You,” where the old man in his sterile environment gets overrun by cockroaches during a blackout.

  127. Wielgus says:
    @Colin Wright

    Reminds me of the principal in Heathers who says something to the effect that if he let children out of school early the switchboard would light up like a Christmas tree.

  128. @Cowtown Rebel

    Great comments, both you and Mr. Dolan. Thanks!

    (I’ll watch that Creepshow thing a little later.)

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
  129. Corvinus says:
    @Cowtown Rebel

    “All of this self quarantining and government imposed restrictions…”

    You mean citizen imposed restrictions. Besides, we ALL have to make sacrifices here, as this painful process will rid our world of globalism and immigration once and for all. Are you NOT in favor of removing those two scourges? Besides, do we not worship mammon way too much at the peril and expense of our race?

  130. @KenH

    You realize native populations in the US and Canada were decimated by diseases brought to them by Europeans…??? But I guess non whites dont count to you – huh?

  131. @Showmethereal

    Not decimated, it was quite bit more than that in some places.

    “Decimated” means 1 in 10, dumbass.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  132. No, I definitely mean Government imposed restrictions. The National Guard has been activated in New York (Martial Law). Self imposed isolation is a matter of choice, mandated quarantine of the populations of large cities is terrifying.

    Disease will never be fully eradicated. Homelessness, malnutrition and lack of sanitation are harbingers of sickness. If people lose their jobs, they will not be able to feed themselves, they will not be able to pay the rent, they will not be able to afford hand sanitizer, they will be more prone to illness, not less. The homeless are plagued by pathogens, Tuberculosis, Typhus, Hepatitis and this nasty little germ Necrotizing Fasciitis:
    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/infectious-disease-oubreaks-in-seattle-homeless-people-concern-health-officials/

    I am certainly in favor of ridding the Country of the twin scourges of immigration and globalism. I may be overly optimistic in this case, or maybe just a little too hopeful, but I would like to be able to bring people to their senses without plunging everyone into an abyss that we may not be able to climb back out of. In that event, any Phoenix that rises from the ashes will likely be generations away and will emerge in an environment under circumstances that will be entirely unrecognizable to us.

  133. @Showmethereal

    There were no United States when the Europeans began to arrive. There were only warring bands of aborigines. Contrary to modern misconception, they were not sitting around smoking peace pipes and playfully counting coup. They were extremely territorial, and other tribes knew that if they crossed the river, ventured into the forest, climbed over the mountain, or wandered into the valley, they were likely to meet with people who were not necessarily welcoming. They had to be prepared to either offer tribute or to do battle.

    When Lewis and Clark reached the Pacific Northwest, they found that the natives there already spoke a rudimentary form of broken English, because the British had colonial holdings in the region. There were also Chinese and Russian settlements, along with the Spanish encroachments, along the Pacific Coast. The Chinese came in such numbers that a moratorium, The Chinese Exclusion Act, was implemented in 1880 and stayed in effect until 1940. The Mexicans, who had invited Chinamen to build their railroads, began to attack and kill them when they started opening businesses and marrying Mexican women. In 1911, Pancho Villa murdered 300 Chinamen at the massacre at Torreon. In the 1930’s, Mexico rounded up 70% of the Chinese along with their Mexican wives and their 1/2 Mexican children, forced them out of their homes, stripped them of their possessions, and sent them across the border into the deserts of the Southwestern United States; penniless and with nothing but the clothes on their backs. The U. S. placed them in internment camps until they could be relocated to China. In the 1950’s, Mexico said the women and children could return. In the 1980’s, in what was nothing more than a symbolic gesture, Mexico permitted the Chinese men to come back.

    Yet, I wonder, how would things have been different if the Spaniards, the Chinese, or the Russians had managed to acquire North America? Would they have allowed the Natives to continue to live as they had been? The Spanish certainly didn’t show any inclination to do this, rounding them up and enslaving them in missions on the pretext of converting them from their heathen religions. From what we have seen of the Chinese attitudes toward the Uyghurs and the Tibetans, I would have to conclude that they would not have been very tolerant. The Russians most likely would not have been very accepting either. The French seemed to have been the most open to Native customs, but even their relatively liberal attitudes probably had their limits. I genuinely believe that only the Anglo-Saxons would have set aside territories (reservations) where the “Indians” could continue to observe their traditions. And, likely, only the Anglo-Saxons would have later waxed philosophical about the “Noble Red Man,” and cast themselves in the role of the villains.

    In an effort to sum it up: History is an extremely complex topic. The rampant over simplification of momentous epochs and monumental occasions has a tendency to lessen understanding, rather than promote it.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  134. @Robert Dolan

    The issue with the doctors in Wuhan is a false one. An eye doctor told his friends in a chat group it looked like SARS was back. His friends then started telling everyone that. It was reported to authorities – it was passed around as gossip. They have laws against that. If you call being punished told not to incite people in chat groups… Then “ok”.
    Once the government confirmed something was “abnormal” they investigated. Life doesnt work like a tv show. Its just like here right now – even with 2 months notice people are spreading it simply because they are not tested… We dont even have enough tests – when strangely at Event 201 in NYC in October 2019 they specifically ran an exercise on how to deal with a coronavirus outbreak. How ironic? Well literally everything that is happening was modelled by them. Go take a look. It is online. Its no hoax.

  135. @Cowtown Rebel

    Contrary to your depiction not all natives were not all warlike and had no culture. You dont know Ben Franklin modelled his ideas om government based on the Iroqouis Confederacy??? And they even had cities. And every society in history has had some form of territorial boundaries. Tyat is part ofmwhat makes up a society.
    Oh and white men were killing Chinese building the rail roads… Not just the Mexicans. It wasnt tye Mexicans lynching Chinese either and burning down their camps.

    Yes history is complex… But what on earth does that have to do with the FACT millions of people died as a result of Europeans bringing diseases across the Atlantic. Stay on topic. Or are you now teying to claim the Chinese and African slaves brought the diseases now…?

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
  136. @Achmed E. Newman

    Actually the only dummy is you. Decimated can also mean “kill – destroy – or remove a large percentage of”. I hope your parents didnt waste money sending you to private school. But it is typical of your type. Love to bloviate. Get your dictionary and look up bloviate while you look up decimate.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  137. @Showmethereal

    Nope, the root “deci” is from the latin for 10, as in 1 in 10, the brutal practice of the killing one in ten Roman soldiers for a transgression by one.

    I know English is not your first language, but I’d still rather you get stuff right, once in a while.

    • Troll: showmethereal
  138. @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you, Mr. Newman. It’s always reassuring when others let you know that they understand.

    Due to the volume of topics and comments encapsulated on Unz, it is impossible to read and respond to all of them. But, there are indeed some fascinating perspectives to be found here. Some lunatics, but also a great many more thoughtful and seemingly knowledgeable people.

  139. @Showmethereal

    America’s founding ideals on government were based on the Magna Carta, Greek and Roman cultures, and other European influences. James Madison was one of the chief architects of the United States government. Thomas Jefferson, and for better or worse, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay had more to do with how the government was instituted than oddball Ben Franklin ever did. Would you prefer a wigwam, a tepee, an adobe hut, an earthen mound or a wickiup to a log cabin or a wood frame or brick home? The common dwellings of the aborigine over the much more substantial and cozier abodes of the colonists? I never said the Indians had no culture or civilization, I simply maintain that ours was, and is, preferable. Maybe, you can go live on a reservation?

    Well, as a matter of FACT, Africans did bring diseases with them. Many of the sailors on the ships became ill and died from being exposed to them. That is why the West Africans initially captured the Negroes from the interior and made them available for sale, for over a thousand years to the Muslims of the Middle East, and then, beginning in 1460 with Portugal, to the Europeans. Only 6% of the Negroes transported across the Atlantic were brought to the North American Colonies or the United States. The majority, 94%, were transported to the Caribbean and South America. The last two regions in the Western Hemisphere to outlaw slavery were Cuba and Brazil in 1888; 35 years after the War to Prevent Southern Independence had ended.

    Lets try Trachoma, “The Oriental Problem,” a contagious eye disease brought to the United States by Chinese Immigrants. Smallpox and the spread of the Bubonic Plague in San Francisco were also attributed to them.

    Last I saw, this thread was concerned with Coronavirus. It is you who jumped on your silly Social Justice Warrior High Horse and got off topic with Injuns croaking from exposure to Europeans.

    And, what did you not understand about massacres in Mexico? Of course the Mexicans burned the homes and businesses of the Chinese. They beat and murdered them. Not just Pancho Villa and not just that one time. There was an ongoing campaign to rid Mexico of the Chinese. Why do you think that the Mexican Government decided to round them up and expel them in the 1930’s?

    You admit that History is complex. Apparently, it is too complex for you to come to any other conclusion than “WHITE MAN – BAD” and “BLACK MAN, BROWN MAN, YELLOW MAN, RED MAN – GOOD” That is transforming the depth of the ocean into the shallowness of a kiddie pool.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  140. @Cowtown Rebel

    Oh ok… I get it – you feel guilty so need to issue a defense. It’s not complicated at all.. KenH claimed that 3rd world pathogens are destroying the US and Canada. I simply reminded him his ancestors wiped out millions when they brought their diseases to the same places he claims are being destroyed. It’s not complicated at all.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
  141. @showmethereal

    The only thing that you’re capable of getting is a headache from trying to think. I don’t have one iota of guilt over anything. Why should I? MY ANCESTORS built a magnificent civilization which was once the envy of the World. So much so, that the people from all around the Earth come here and nothing can persuade them to leave. Of course, not being of the European stock that created this society, they cannot maintain it, they can only drain it. I doubt that the foreigners will feel any guilt over ruining the last refuge for those fleeing their homelands by destroying the final asylum for the planet’s malcontents. The huddled masses will ensure that our shores are teeming with wretched refuse. But, they, along with us, will have to dwell in the rubble that they’ve piled up. Someone should feel very remorseful about that.

    The discussion was about Coronavirus, not whatever diseases the Colonists allegedly brought with them. It’s not complicated and neither are you, Simpleton.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  142. @Cowtown Rebel

    If you didn’t feel guilty you wouldn’t have to write so much. Empty barrels indeed can make the most noise. The comment was people from the third world supposedly bringing disease to this continent. Ironic since the so called founders brought diseases that killed off the natives. Irony is lost on people with chips on their shoulder. I notice they were wise or at least humble enough to swallow the fact and leave it alone… But you have to defend your race. Nothing new.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  143. @showmethereal

    In Mr. Rebel’s defense, I think he just doesn’t want to see utter stupidity being displayed all around the internet, as is the case in a rising share of your comments. Sometimes, people see that stuff and take it seriously.

    • Troll: showmethereal
  144. @David riskanalyst

    My “alarmist” predictions were 2,624 Covid-19 cases and 52 Covid-19 deaths in Massachusetts by 4 April and 5,248 cases and 105 deaths by 9 April.

    As of 6 April 2020, Massachusetts has reported 13,387 cases and 260 deaths (https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/04/06/coronavirus-massachusetts-13837-cases-reported-260-deaths-monday-april-6/)

    Rather than being alarmist it would seem I was very conservative in my projections.

  145. @Jus' Sayin'...

    It’s always a useful exercise to go back and check one’s projections against real data.

    My “alarmist” predictions were 2,624 Covid-19 cases and 52 Covid-19 deaths in Massachusetts by 4 April and 5,248 cases and 105 deaths by 9 April.

    As of 6 April 2020, Massachusetts has reported 13,387 cases and 260 deaths (https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/04/06/coronavirus-massachusetts-13837-cases-reported-260-deaths-monday-april-6/)

    Rather than being alarmist it would seem I was very conservative in my projections.

  146. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Guess your figures were wrong buddy,

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