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George Floyd: What Is a Fatal Dose of Fentanyl?
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From the newly-released transcripts that are part of a legal filing by Lane’s attorney, Earl Gray, who has requested that the Hennepin County District Court dismiss the case against his client:

The transcripts reveal that as the officers forced Floyd into the vehicle, the 46-year-old black man said: “I can’t breathe” and “I want to lay on the ground.”

 

Here is a toxicology report on deaths from fentanyl overdose: https://ndews.umd.edu/sites/ndews.umd.edu/files/ndews-hotspot-unintentional-fentanyl-overdoses-in-new-hampshire-final-09-11-17.pdf

The report says:

“Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL; nevertheless, the distributions of fentanyl levels were statistically the same, whether fentanyl was the only drug in the toxicology or one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems to be sufficient to cause death, which are findings similar to those found in Sorg et al., 2016.”

Let’s see if we can understand what we are being told. Fentanyl is itself so toxic that it is sufficient to kill without help from other dangerous drugs in the cocktail. People who died from fentanyl overdose had readings from 0.75 ng/mL to an astounding 113 ng/mL. The average death dose was 9.96 ng/mL.

According to George Floyd’s toxicology report, his blood contained 11.0 ng/mL Fentanyl, plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine, and three other drugs.

It is clear from the police recordings that Floyd complained of breathing difficulty prior to any police restraint. In other words, he was in the process of dying prior to the arrival of the police. When the police recognized his condition they called for medics. Floyd was restrained on his stomach according to protocol. One effect of fentanyl is nausea. Having a person on their stomach keeps them from choking on their own vomit. This is why police protocol requires them to be restrained on their stomach.

None of the people watching the video had any awareness of any of the facts. And the media made sure they still have no awareness of the facts.

A number of websites that have traditionally republished my columns are also making sure that their readers never find out that Floyd died of an overdose of fentanyl.

I have sent three articles to the Minneapolis Star Tribune about the facts of the case and have had no acknowledgement.

The Minneapolis Star Tribune is no doubt afraid of (1) having all advertising pulled by businesses afraid that they will be burned out, (2) afraid of being burned down itself, and (3) afraid of being called racist by its employees which always has more force than when it comes from outside, and (4) the editors are afraid of being fired for being racist. So don’t expect any investigation or honest reporting from the hometown newspaper in Minneapolis.

Some of the websites that have traditionally republished my columns are so into damning America for its colonial wars that George Floyd’s death is just grist for their mill. It is more proof of American iniquity.

For others, such as myself, who are opposed to gratuitous police aggression and want to stop the Israeli training of our police, “Chauvin’s murder of Floyd despite Floyd’s pleas” is a winning issue.

And then there are the many readers for whom it is of the utmost emotional importance that Floyd was murdered by white police for racist reasons. These readers are immune to all facts. One told me that fentanyl is not toxic. Another told me that it is not possible to overdose on fentanyl. Yet another told me that the medical examiner is white and his report is a racist report. Another asked me when did I become a racist.

In other words, they only want to hear what they have been brainwashed to believe. Facts have no importance to them. Indeed, there are no facts, only emotional responses, and they are indoctrinated with the emotional response that is valid. As long as the response is anti-white, it is valid.

When I quote from official reports on the small amount of fentanyl that can cause death, the closed minds tell me I made a math error. It is not my math and it is not an error. The purpose of the assertion is to protect a brainwashed existence. It has to be true. Impossible to accept they have been deceived. Thus, reports of expert toxicologists become math errors and can be dismissed.

Most of these readers are white as far as I can tell. My black readers have a better sense of reality. What we are dealing with is not only the brainwashing of white students as to the evil origin of their country and their inherited guilt, but also their inability to think rationally and to make an objective conclusion from evidence. This was once the purpose of education, but no more. Today students are taught that their emotions are what is true, and their emotions are manipulated by the lies that they are taught.

This perversity of education spells the end of the United States. The kind of people American education is producing are not capable of scientific thinking. The kind of education Americans receive today cannot produce scientists or engineers. We have the emotive generation, people trained to be guided by emotion.

The inability of American education to produce people capable of thought is already our reality. We see it in the huge number of work visas in which foreigners, largely from Asia, are brought into the US to do the jobs American educated youth cannot do.

ORDER IT NOW

Yes, I know, there is an economic advantage to US firms to hire foreign labor and to send the jobs abroad—lower wages. I have emphasized the offshoring of American jobs as much or more than anyone. But it is still the case that the white liberal elites have reduced American education to the creation of people who emote instead of think. Indeed, it is unclear whether the younger generation is capable of thought.

I see scant signs of it.

The neoconservative warmongers need to take this into account before they lead us into a military conflict with China and Russia.

It is not a conflict that the United States can survive.

We most certainly cannot stand the risk of such a conflict in addition to the internal conflict of racial hatred being taught in a multi-racial society.

(Republished from PaulCraigRoberts.org by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Kouros says:

    I buy some of it.

    However, the knee on the neck is not helpful at all. Also, death by fentanyl overdose is not a foregone conclusion. The full video of the incident shows George apprehended, hands tied, becalmed, and leaning on the wall of the store that triggered the phone call for quite a bit, before he was transferred across the street to another police team, which for some reason had to put him face down, and immobilize him with a knee on the neck for quite some time.

    Maybe the author has not seen the full record of the video and believes too much in the professionalism and well intentions of the police. A competent and professional police would know to discern signs of mental distress and chemical intoxication and would be always equipped (in this time and age) with sufficient dozes of Naloxone, to help with opioid overdoses.

    So, in my opinion, even if the medical report were true and fentanyl was found in George’s system, that is not an excuse for the police. It is likely they called for the ambulance when the guy was already dead, and they sped that death, instead of stopping it, which was very easy to do.

  2. Sir, I love the tone of your clear-sighted article. – Thanks for insisting on writing down what’s up, no mtter if it hurts or – whatever it does!

    PS
    A well known one of your younger journalist-colleagues, Matt Taibbi, remarked just recently that that was the biggest mistake of the liberal- or left-leaning media now: To ignore the facts and instead try to get readers to the point, where they Do the Right Thing…. Matt Taibbi, who worked for Rolling Stone Magazine during the last presidential elections, admitted even, that he too did make this mistake.

    • Thanks: Alfred
    • Replies: @MLK
    , @Hypnotoad666
  3. Sir, I love the tone of your clear-sighted article. – Thanks for insisting on writing down what’s up, no matter if it hurts or – whatever it does!

    PS
    A well known one of your younger journalist-colleagues, Matt Taibbi, remarked just recently that that was the biggest mistake of the liberal- or left-leaning media now: To ignore the facts and instead try to get readers to the point, where they Do the Right Thing…. Matt Taibbi, who worked for Rolling Stone Magazine during the last presidential elections, admitted even, that he too did make this mistake.

  4. “George Floyd” is still alive. This is just a show. The important question is “why are they airing it?”

    • LOL: El Dato
  5. @Kouros

    However, the knee on the neck is not helpful at all.

    How many large, drugged people have you had to restrain? A knee on the neck gives you enough leverage to restrain a large guy, to keep him from harming both you and himself, while leaving at least one hand free to work a radio or reach for a weapon or other tools of the trade.

    I ask one simple question of everyone who condemns the practise: Can you describe a better way to handle the situation?

  6. @The Alarmist

    The knee-hold was preferred because the headlock of old turned out to be more harmful – especially to the respiratory apparatus.

    The headlock did cause deaths, the knee-hold none so far, as Ron Unz pointed out in his discussion with the commenter the scalpel, who is an emergency medic who commented over at Fred Reed’s column.

    • Thanks: Alfred
  7. R.C. says:

    Good find & explanation, PCR!
    Good summary of the US’s problem:

    But it is still the case that the white liberal elites have reduced American education to the creation of people who emote instead of think.

    R.C.

    • Agree: Alternate History
  8. Tusk says:
    @Kouros

    St. Floyd was complaining of being unable to breathe before he was being layed down. So tell me, what chain of causation causes someone’s breathing to be affected before they’re being physically restrained, if the physical restraints are the cause of death? Nothing. Because his cause of death wasn’t from being restrained, it was from having coronavirus and being on multiple drugs. Don’t blame the poor cops for arresting him while he was in the process of dying. Floyd made his choices that lead to his death, the cops were just doing their job.

    • Agree: GazaPlanet
  9. What is being taught is racial fear. Hatred derives from fear. Once fear catches fire, hatred naturally follows.
    What is the antidote of fear?
    That simple question has a simple answer.
    The antidote to fear is the development of mutual trust.
    The simple answer is not easy to achieve in practice.
    It is necessary for both parties to be worthy of the trust of each other.
    There is a single word for “worthiness of trust”: honesty.
    Peoples with a history of mutual distrust – i.e. mutual fear – have to take a real risk in order to even begin the process of growing mutual trust. Great discipline is required by all people on both sides for mutual trust to become possible. Mutual trust would need great discipline in perpetuity in order to be sustained. The harmful effect of instances of unworthiness of trust would need to be deeply understood.
    The status quo is dedicated to – and dependent on – maintaining mutual distrust among its herds of human livestock.
    The challenge is daunting – is it not?
    Is civil war avoidable?

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    , @Dr Giggles
  10. lysias says:

    Surely the fatal dose varies a lot, depending on how much the person’s body has come to tolerate, through use. This is true of heroin. Why shouldn’t it be true of another opiate, like fentanyl?

  11. L. Guapo says:
    @Kouros

    There is a reason you have not seen any video of the crucial minutes between the wall-leaning and the “for some reason had to put him face down”. The video exists. Why do you think you have not seen it?

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
  12. Pigmeat says:

    This really restores my faith in the decency of the common man. A majority of Americans think burning down a police station is the appropriate way to get asshole cops to think twice about lynching jigs.

    https://mronline.org/2020/07/03/anatomy-of-a-counter-insurgency/

    But really, burning down a police station is also the only way to get asshole cops to retire and beat their wife or eat a gun or whatever it is they dream of doing in retirement. We don’t need battalions of armed assholes in this country. All they do is prop up a 3rd-world kleptocratic shithole. Just fuckin break it up.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  13. KenH says:

    In other words, he was in the process of dying prior to the arrival of the police. When the police recognized his condition they called for medics.

    Yet these facts continue to get left out of media narratives of both the left and the kosher right. The tin foil hatters everywhere are certain that Derek Chauvin was an anti-black racist and bent on doing George Floyd harm the moment he and the other police showed up. Never mind the complete absence of evidence for this belief. Left wing proggy types simply invent or ignore facts and fill in the blanks based on their own political biases.

    And as PCR has noted it’s reached the point where a very large minority and possibly almost half of the U.S. population believes that all whites people are irredeemably racist and white cops have malign motives towards blacks. For decades the Jewish owned media and universities have besmirched the founding of America and its history until 1965 along with blood libeling the white population. The result is a denatured and dysfunctional population actuated by mindless hate.

    How this state of affairs doesn’t end with oceans of blood from sea to shining sea is beyond me.

    • Agree: St-Germain, Mefobills
    • Replies: @Mefobills
    , @Mefobills
  14. The transcript has been released and you can and should read all of it. Floyd ASKED to be put on the ground. The police speculated on what might be wrong with him, possibly having taken PCP, because of his strange behavior and his eyes looking abnormal. In such cases, what they did was in line with the official approved methods for dealing with someone who might suddenly become violent even in restraints. He was complaining of being unable to breathe through the entire process, and the police tried repeatedly to get him into the car – with one bystander saying “Bro, you’re having a heart attack or something, get in the car” – but he would not. This is a very thorough article with information I have not seen anywhere else, and I recommend everyone read it. You’ll be surprised: https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

    • Thanks: KenH
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  15. The truth does not matter. The Jewish dominated legacy media has seen to that. The mob will have their blood.

  16. FB says: • Website

    In other words, he was in the process of dying prior to the arrival of the police. When the police recognized his condition they called for medics. Floyd was restrained on his stomach according to protocol.

    So the protocol is to ‘help’ a man needing medical attention by kneeling on his neck and back until his heart stops and his body goes limp…?

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense in the bizzarro universe…

    Btw…fentanyl is used at up 20 to ng/ml as a general anesthetic in surgery…that is twice the amount Floyd had in his system…and patients don’t die, in fact they wake up, despite this level being kept up throughout the procedure to keep the patient under…

    Also the 5.6 ng/ml norfentanyl is an inactive metabolite, so it is not counted as part of some ‘new math’ to get to a ‘fentanyl level’ of 19 ng/ml…

    Also, many medical studies showing fentanyl overdoses that survived with over 100 ng/ml blood level, ten times Floyd’s level…

    Also…PCR is NOT a doctor, yet he makes doctor-like assertions about what is a ‘fatal’ dose of fentanyl [actually all the medical literature says there is no MINIMUM fatal blood level of fentanyl, because it depends on the tolerance of the user]…and that Floyd was in the ‘process of dying’…

    When in fact all doctors who have spoken about this have said Floyd showed NO SIGNS of going into overdose, which is basically nodding off…the transcripts show him actively speaking to the police, so he was not passing out as would be expected in an overdose…

    In the previous ‘article’ we had the FALSE INFORMATION that the Hennepin County Medical Examiner supposedly did not rule the death a homicide, when in fact he did…only this is, as per standard procedure, included in the death certificate, not the autopsy report…

    I already told this ‘author’ to go ahead and talk to an actual forensic pathologist, or even an active medical examiner and ask them if they agree that he died of a drug overdose…why doesn’t he do that…?

    Surely PCR knows some doctors that would give him some expert information…?

  17. JimDandy says:
    @Kouros

    Floyd was collapsing before he even got out of his car, and I have seen video of Floyd being uncooperative/complaining as the cops try to put him in the back of a squad car.

    He overdosed on drugs–either out of panic or stupidity. When it comes down to it, I’ve always said, ol’ George… his heart was just too darned big. That’s what did him in–his gigantic heart.

    • Replies: @Franz
  18. Hahaha says:

    That’s not what a drug overdose on downers looks like sorry bud.

    • Replies: @Redman
  19. ruralguy says:

    Excellent article, Dr. Roberts. Unless a mind has been trained to fully understand a science, it likely lacks the cognitive thought to see clearly. Almost all people see the world with a jumble of emotions and pseudo logic. They’ve never experienced the rigor of theorem-based proofs, deductions, and the struggle to comprehend high-level thought. Almost all adults live in a shallow world of mind drift, reacting to their emotions.

  20. Paul Craig Roberts is aware of false flags/staged events as he has written a number of articles about the 9/11 false flag. For some reason he has bought in to this George Floyd hoax. The evidence is overwhelming that Floyd didn’t die. They used a dummy with no legs, as well as at least two different actors to play George Floyd. There is other evidence but that should be enough. I’m disappointed in PCR.

    • Troll: ploni almoni
    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  21. Biff says:

    Charlie Sheen snorted enough coke to kill ‘two and a half men’, and he is still walking around.

  22. @alan kerns

    “Peoples with a history of mutual distrust – i.e. mutual fear – have to take a real risk in order to even begin the process of growing mutual trust. Great discipline is required by all people on both sides for mutual trust to become possible. Mutual trust would need great discipline in perpetuity in order to be sustained. The harmful effect of instances of unworthiness of trust would need to be deeply understood.”

    Apparently, this comment was fished out of a time capsule from 1860.

    “Is civil war avoidable?”

    No.

  23. map says:
    @FB

    You’ve been debunked.

    Go away.

    • Troll: vot tak
  24. Tusk says:
    @FB

    So the protocol is to ‘help’ a man needing medical attention by kneeling on his neck and back until his heart stops and his body goes limp…?

    The cops had called an ambulance for Floyd, and later upgraded the urgency for it after he became unconscious. They also started performing CPR once he became unconscious. So they provided him with all the medical care they could and waited for the professionals to come and take him. Did you want them to start doing a heart transplant in the street to replace his failing heart?

    If you don’t believe that the knee on the neck restraint is official protocol I suggest you check out MN police department policy provided to the court as part of the trial. Page 7 and 12 provided you official police non-lethal protocol for restraining a suspect. A normal person laying down is not going to pass out considering the neck pressure is not restricting their airways.

    Consider checking out the transcripts of the bodycam footage here, wherein it records the following conversation:

    [Officer] Kueng: Take a seat.
    George Floyd: I can’t choke, I can’t breathe Mr. Officer ! Please! Please !
    Kueng: Fine.
    George Floyd: Mywrist,mywristman. Okay, okay. I want to lay on the ground. I want to lay on the ground. I want to lay on the ground!
    Lane: your [sic] getting in the squad.
    George Floyd : want to lay on the ground ! I’m going down,
    Kueng: Take a squat [at the same time as Floyd: “going down, I’m going down.”]
    George Floyd: I’m going down
    Speaker 9: Bro, you about to have a heartattack and shitman, get in the car!
    George Floyd: I know I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe

    Quick examination: Here is Floyd being unable to breathe before being restrained, refusing to take a seat in the squad care (after previously resisting being placed in the car) asking to lay down, telling officers he is going down – as the officers tell him to squat. Even more prescient an onlooker mentions that Floyd is going to have a heart attack to which Floyd agrees with. Let’s not forget the official autopsy cause of death of George Floyd:

    cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.

    Funny, Floyd died of exactly the same cause of death that an onlooker predicted and Floyd agreed with. Maybe Floyd was already in the process of dying and that was why he was so erratic? He didn’t die or get choked to death by the knee on his neck, considering Officer Chauvin (who kneeled on it) wasn’t even at the scene when Floyd began having breathing issues.

    Let’s also consider this from the bodycam transcript:

    [Officer] Lane: What areyou on something rightnow ?
    George Floyd: No, nothing.
    Kueng: Because you acting a little erratic.
    Lane: Let’s go . Let’s go
    George Floyd: I’m scared ,man
    Lane: Let’s go
    Kueng: You got foam around your mouth , too ?
    George Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier .

    Here’s some information: ‘8 Signs of a Heart Attack’:

    2. Difficulty in breathing
    This usually accompanies chest pain, but it could occur on its own. A heart attack causes the lungs to become congested and in its most severe form, acute pulmonary edema, there could be frothing at the mouth

    Was Floyd having a heart attack while the officers where arresting him? Seems likely. In fact he couldn’t even walk properly. Once again from the transcript:

    Kueng: Stand up , stop falling down! Stand up Stay on your feet and face

    So looking at the direct evidence we have the following points:

    – Floyd could not breathe before he was laying down.
    – Floyd unable to walk.
    – Floyd foaming at the mouth.
    – Floyd requesting to be layed down.
    – Ambulance on the way, later upgraded to more urgent request after he became unconscious.
    – Kneeling technique on neck being publicly approved policy, non-lethal
    – Breathing issues being present before pressure on neck
    – Dosage of respiratory affecting drugs in lethal range
    – Floyd previously being affected by respiratory COVID-19 virus
    – Autopsy results stating he died of cardio pulminary issues, not from being restrained

    What do we have when putting all these points together?
    The conclusion that the issues causing Floyd’s death were present before excessive restraint (he was firstly handcuffed) and that something prexisting was likely to blame.
    Signs of a heart attack, that even a bystander remarked on, seem to highlight it was likely that George Floyd was already in the process of dying as the police arrested him, not because the police were arresting him.

  25. GMC says:

    If you are going to trust the word or investigations of anyone in the law enforcement world, and that includes the coroners – just watch how the Ms Maxwell’s case — is handled. The cop is guilty of manslaughter – just like you or I would be – had you done this to Floyd.

  26. @FB

    Btw…fentanyl is used at up 20 to ng/ml as a general anesthetic in surgery…that is twice the amount Floyd had in his system…and patients don’t die, in fact they wake up, despite this level being kept up throughout the procedure to keep the patient under…

    Please provide evidence for your claim. Dr Roberts provided evidence for his: pathology reports indicating an average of 9.96 ng/ml for a fatal dose. Moreover, Floyd had serious heart diseases as well, which you do not mention.

    In the previous ‘article’ we had the FALSE INFORMATION that the Hennepin County Medical Examiner supposedly did not rule the death a homicide, when in fact he did…only this is, as per standard procedure, included in the death certificate, not the autopsy report…

    The autopsy was carried out on 26 May 2020 and signed 1 June 2020 by Dr Baker. He certifies that there are no life-threatening injuries. So it cannot be used as the basis for an allegation for homicide. This was released with the approval of Floyd’s family. There has been no second autopsy to contradict this, as shown by Dr Roberts.

    • Replies: @Humphrey
  27. If you look at the autopsy report ( link in previous article ), you will find in the comments section that the ME Dr Baker found evidence of Sickle Cell Anaemia. The article in Wikipedia is highly informative ( not always the case ).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_disease

    In the Developed World, life expectancy is between 40 and 60. Floyd was 46
    .
    One complication is Acute Chest Syndrome

    Acute chest syndrome is defined by at least two of these signs or symptoms: chest pain, fever, pulmonary infiltrate or focal abnormality, respiratory symptoms, or hypoxemia.[25] It is the second-most common complication and it accounts for about 25% of deaths in patients with SCD. Most cases present with vaso-occlusive crises, and then develop acute chest syndrome.[26][27] Nevertheless, about 80% of people have vaso-occlusive crises during acute chest syndrome.

    So on top of the serious heart diseases, the potentially fatal ( on its own ) fentanyl level, it looks like you can add Sickle Cell anaenia as well.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  28. Franz says:
    @JimDandy

    Btw…fentanyl is used at up 20 to ng/ml as a general anesthetic in surgery…that is twice the amount Floyd had in his system…and patients don’t die, in fact they wake up, despite this level being kept up throughout the procedure to keep the patient under…

    Yeah, I have a friend who’s the chief anesthesiologist at a local hospital. He told me that right about the time a huge spike in fentanyl hit.

    I asked him why the fentanyl body count was so high, he just shrugged and said the street fentanyl is poison. The DEA was then blaming it on “China” but there are reasons to doubt anything coming from them. since they were also talking about “cheap Mexican heroin” which is a CIA myth. What’s next, Russian Quaalude?

    When they reported speed, specifically meth, in Floyd’s system that was enough to clinch it. The man was mixing his stash.

    All that’s going to happen now is cops seeing anybody black having an OD will just go the other way. Can’t say as I’d blame them.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Redman
  29. Will the country and the legacy of hard work, intense sacrifice, honesty and creativity of the millions of people who built this country be ultimately destroyed by either

    A. A large middle aged negro, who while he didn’t do anything, did die with a belly full of fentanyl while resting in the street with cops either restraining him or intent on killing him

    Or

    B. A lovely 60-ish year old Jewess billionaire who ran an international blackmail ring for everyone’s greatest ally Israel, that exploited the bizarre and lurid sexual proclivities of our ruling class

    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
  30. For anyone interested, the complete transcript of the entire encounter (trigger warning, contains profanity)

    Exhibit207072020

    • Thanks: Curmudgeon
  31. Truth3 says:

    Same thing happened to Germany… Germans were so propagandized and brainwashed after WW2 about the War & the Holy Hoax, that they will kiss JooAss with both lips to avoid being punished further for what they never did.

    • Agree: Druid
  32. El Dato says:
    @lysias

    I don’t see what talking about possible fentanyl superman adds to the mix.

    People who died from fentanyl overdose had readings from 0.75 ng/mL to an astounding 113 ng/mL. The average death dose was 9.96 ng/mL. According to George Floyd’s toxicology report, his blood contained 11.0 ng/mL Fentanyl, plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine, and three other drugs.

    If he had survived that shit, he would above average on everything. It is quite likely that he was way below average. Let’s say 6 ng/mL would have been sufficient to send him ad patres

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  33. Emslander says:

    What we are dealing with is not only the brainwashing of white students as to the evil origin of their country and their inherited guilt, but also their inability to think rationally and to make an objective conclusion from evidence.

    I see that this article is not about the death of George Floyd, a tragedy, even if the usual suspects are out and commenting their usual immovable opinions on that death.

    Roberts is pointing out that no discussion is possible about this event. If George Floyd came back from the dead and volunteered to give an interview alongside the police officers who arrested him to explain what had happened, no one would listen. They SAW the video and formed an emotional response. Facts are entirely irrelevant. One of the commenters above has already taken that position. He said, following a more detailed article, “All you need to know is what’s on that video!”

    Roberts blames the educational system and I’ve noticed that the more prestigious the degree a young person has, the less able they are to engage in a rational discussion on any subject. They look at you with this superior attitude, ready to spout some meaningless rejoinder like, “OK Boomer,” or “Do you still believe that?” As if truth were dependent on one’s age or facts are a matter of religious faith.

    Are they being given mentally fatal doses of propaganda as they qualify for the better schools or do the better universities have a selection system that singles out only those already emotionally disassociated? That’s where we are.

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  34. chuckywiz says:

    Why dont you write such titles in a medical magazine. Just like “Dr.” Bill Gate of MS who has been writing on vaccination in medical journals for past several years.
    And we blame Americans are misinformed.

  35. @The Alarmist

    People who believe that suspected felons have the right to violently resist arrest or otherwise obstruct the legitimate arrest process are anarchists who should own up to their philosophy.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  36. vot tak says:

    “None of the people watching the video had any awareness of any of the facts.”

    Ah, the “medical expert” pcr “proves” once again all the other medical experts are wrong and Floyd did die of a drug overdose despite the heroic attempts of the sainted men in blue to prevent his self initiated demise.

    “The transcripts reveal that as the officers forced Floyd into the vehicle, the 46-year-old black man said: “I can’t breathe” and “I want to lay on the ground.”

    They reveal a lot more which roberts judiciously decided wouldn’t help his spin about the murder and didn’t mention. Let’s take a look at what else they reveal, shall we:

    George Floyd warned police he thought he would die because he couldn’t breathe, according to body camera transcripts

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/george-floyd-death-transcripts/2020/07/08/a7050efe-c15c-11ea-b178-bb7b05b94af1_story.html

    [MORE]

    “According to the transcripts, the officers tried placing Floyd in the squad car, but he resisted, repeatedly telling them he was “claustrophobic” and had “anxiety.” He begged to be released from his handcuffs, promising he wouldn’t hurt anyone. “Y’all, I’m going to die in here,” he told them. “I just had COVID man, don’t want to go back to that.”

    Floyd began to bleed from the mouth, after bumping his head inside the vehicle, and Lane called emergency medical help to the scene. Floyd began to complain that he couldn’t breathe. “I just had COVID, man,” Floyd said. “I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe. Please one of you listen to me.”

    Chauvin asked whether Floyd was going to jail, and the officers pulled him from the car. “Get him down on the ground,” Chauvin said.

    The transcripts show Floyd continued to complain that he couldn’t breathe and called out for his mother. The officers restrained him on the ground — Lane at his feet, Kueng at his back and Chauvin at his head. “You’re under arrest guy,” Chauvin told him.

    “All right, all right. Oh my god. I can’t believe this. I can’t believe this,” Floyd said. “Mama, I love you . . . Tell my kids I love them. I’m dead.”

    “You’re doing a lot of talking, man,” Chauvin replied.

    As the officers held Floyd to the ground, Chauvin asked the other officers whether Floyd was “high.” Kueng told him they’d found “a pipe on him.” Floyd again told the officers he couldn’t breathe. “You’re doing fine. You’re talking fine,” Kueng said, as Lane told him to take a “deep breath” and Chauvin told him to “relax.”

    “My neck hurts,” Floyd said.

    “Uh huh,” Chauvin replied. “You’re doing a lot of talking, a lot of yelling.”

    “They going to kill me,” Floyd said. “They’re going to kill me man.”

    “Takes a heck of a lot of oxygen to say that,” Chauvin said.

    The transcripts show Lane asked Chauvin several times whether Floyd should be moved.

    “No, leave him,” Chauvin told him. “Staying put where we got him.”

    Lane told Chauvin he was worried about “excited delirium,” citing a term used by medical examiners to describe the sudden in-custody death of people who may be under the influence of drugs or in an agitated state.

    “That’s why we got the ambulance coming,” Chauvin said.

    “Okay, I suppose,” Lane replied. A few seconds later, he told Chauvin that he believed Floyd had passed out. When an off-duty firefighter on the scene pressed the officers to check Floyd’s pulse, Kueng couldn’t find one.

    “Huh?” Chauvin replied, according to the transcript.”

    As with his previous article, roberts cherry picked the information he referenced to distort the reality into something that supports his propaganda.

    • Troll: L.K
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  37. @Just another serf

    The USA was murdered by The Jew, The Cuck and The Drunk* who changed immigration law in 1965.

    * Emanuel Celler, Philip Hart, Teddy “My car is a diving bell” Kennedy

    • Replies: @Icy Blast
  38. @FB

    So the protocol is to ‘help’ a man needing medical attention by kneeling on his neck and back until his heart stops and his body goes limp…?

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense in the bizzarro universe…

    Please see The Alarmists’ post above and answer the question. The neck restraint was designed to replace the more lethal chokehold, which I believe was at least partially designed to replace outright billy clubbing.

    If you still believe that police do not have a right to carry to completion legitimate arrests or that suspected felons have the right to violently resist, then be reminded that the primary role of the police is to protect suspected criminals from summary execution, which was a common way for citizens of limited time, training and patience to handle suspects, especially recidivists, before professional policing.

    Btw…fentanyl is used at up 20 to ng/ml as a general anesthetic in surgery…that is twice the amount Floyd had in his system…and patients don’t die, in fact they wake up, despite this level being kept up throughout the procedure to keep the patient under…

    Remember Michael Jackson? That’s an expected outcome of recreational general anesthesia under even optimal conditions. And MJ was healthy. Floyd had multiple forms of severe heart disease, severe enough that he may not have even been a candidate for general anesthesia in any setting but emergency surgery.

    NB: General anesthesia usually isn’t carried out by dumping kegstand levels of jungle juice recreational drug cocktails down the patient’s throat then wheeling them out on the street to do felonies and throw hands with the cops before losing consciousness.

    This latter technique may be associated with increased mortality.

    Also the 5.6 ng/ml norfentanyl is an inactive metabolite, so it is not counted as part of some ‘new math’ to get to a ‘fentanyl level’ of 19 ng/ml…

    What it does mean is that, at some point, he had roughly 17ng/ml of fentanyl in his system. I know nothing about the subject but would be shocked if all drug overdoses occur exactly at peak blood levels. Therefore, the fact that he had already metabolized some portion doesn’t rule out a pure overdose.

    Also, many medical studies showing fentanyl overdoses that survived with over 100 ng/ml blood level, ten times Floyd’s level…

    Many casino advertisements show people who have won thousands playing slot machines. But the vast majority of players are still net losers. You’re arguing from literal survivorship bias, an obvious fallacy.

    Also…PCR is NOT a doctor, yet he makes doctor-like assertions about what is a ‘fatal’ dose of fentanyl [actually all the medical literature says there is no MINIMUM fatal blood level of fentanyl, because it depends on the tolerance of the user]…and that Floyd was in the ‘process of dying’…

    Either what PCR said is true, or it isn’t, regardless of credentials. And the fact that there is no minimum fatal blood level undermines rather than supports the case that St. Fentanyl couldn’t have died of a fentanyl overdose.

    • Disagree: Biff
    • Replies: @Biff
  39. @Negrolphin Pool

    The little exculpatory evidence that has seen the light of day suggests the cops were trying to figure out how to keep the guy alive. It seems that Black Felon Lives do indeed matter.

  40. Icy Blast says:
    @Sick of Orcs

    You forgot LBJ and Jacob Javits.

    • Agree: Sick of Orcs
  41. MLK says:
    @Dieter Kief

    As the POTUS often says, ‘It’s just common sense.”

    So let’s apply that here, setting aside the sketchy facts and connections between those involved.

    Apparently the police contact was initiated by a call by the convenience store because Floyd either passed or attempted to pass a counterfeit bill. If memory serves, Floyd and his two companions were located by police in a car in the parking lot behind the store; questioned and taken into custody without incident.

    The security footage clearly showed Floyd dropping a drug baggie containing a white substance. Was a field test for Fentanyl done? A quick Google search reveals that the presence of Fentanyl in street drugs forced a change in police procedures incident to arrest. The standard field test wherein they scooped out a bit of the substance and tested it was deemed too dangerous for officers. Indeed, so dangerous that some think that illegal drug users should test for it:

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/06/22/as-fentanyl-seeps-into-drugs-activists-urge-users-to-test

    And there is a field test for the outside of the baggie:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190917115455.htm

    My point being that while we don’t as of yet know whether these officers tested incident to arrest for Fentanyl — at least I don’t but I haven’t followed this to anymore than a cursory degree, its presence is anything but a “Red Herring.”

    https://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/attorney-report-of-drugs-in-floyds-system-is-red-herring

    The irony is that even if there was no field test confirmation, the officers suspicions of Fentanyl poisoning based on Floyd’s behavior were proved right by the autopsy.

    Obscured from us ordinary civilians are a whole set of police procedures — official and not — for dealing with an arrestee confirmed or reasonably suspected of recent contact with Fentanyl.

    At least we now know why those who early on shouted about the “heartless” way Floyd was treated by the EMTs have gone silent.

    Anyone opening up a mouth about cops using their actions in this incident should consider what they would do upon encountering someone with Fentanyl poisoning. In my experience, those who get on a big talker high-horse wouldn’t come to the aid of a drowning child.

    This was a Perfect Storm. Someone took a heart-rending video of George Floyd’s death, and the Democrats and Allied Media ran with it because they’re desperate to reverse POTUS Trump’s 20% plus support with black voters. Add in the mass psychosis their lockdowns induced and we were off to the races.

    • Agree: Redman
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    , @MLK
  42. gotmituns says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Here’s my question. Should the clerk in the convenience store be brought up on charges of accessory to murder for reporting the fake $20 and pointing out to the police the vehicle George Floyd was sitting in?

  43. Biff says:
    @Negrolphin Pool

    You’re just like black lives matter ‘piling on’ pitting one against the other. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were on their payroll.
    The shills for destruction have no shame in their quest to divide and conquer. Thanks to your help the Deep State is winning. Trump and his white patrons have a finite future in America.

  44. RT says:
    @FB

    The presence and level of inactive Norfentanyl indicates that the level of initial Fentanyl was much higher than the final lab results show. Fentanyl as an analgesic and especially as an additive to general anaesthetics is applied in a controlled setting by highly trained anaesthesiologists. It has a byphasic mode of action with a pronounced depression of the respiratory centre in the first phase.
    Its pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic activity is greatly altered by age, race ( e.g. Asians metabolize at a higher rate, Blacks at unpredictable rate etc), comorbidities (e.g. impaired liver function, slow circulation syndrome), presence of other drugs (benzodiazepines, metamphetamine etc).

    • Replies: @FB
  45. @Verymuchalive

    Add CO-19 (at times a cause for heart problems) and – on a lesser scale, – diabetes. and – he was overweight.

  46. Unanimous says:

    Opiates including Fentanyl do not cause respiratory distress. There is no shortness of breath or breathlessness. Opiates depress the area of the brain controlling respiration. They will NOT complain of any breathing problems. The impetus to breathe is gone. They pass out and die unless treated with an antagonist like Naloxone or ventilation is assisted or if the opioid is miraculously metabolized prior to death. Direct injury to the lung from trauma, broken ribs, infection, heart failure, being held in a stress position so the chest cannot expand, will cause distress and the person will complain bitterly.

    I know what I speak of: I have practiced emergency medicine for more than 40 years.

    • Thanks: FB
  47. @MLK

    This was a Perfect Storm.

    I agree. Thanks – your comment astounded me, because now – after the hundreds of comment-pages I’ve read about this case, you are able to bring more new information here to the public’s eye.

    Now I wait for someone to add these facts up – unz.com would almost do by itself, and write the book Sebastian Junger did write about – – – – The Perfect Storm!

    PS
    (Would you know about the way in which the second autopsy was conducted? I remember having read, it had been conducted by video – but I can’t trace back just where I’ve read this).

  48. nickels says:

    Not much luck with photos, but:

    • LOL: Corrupt
  49. @Kouros

    You are a complete ass. I hope one day someone as big and as black and as violent as Floyd, all doped up on some dangerous drug, thumps you in the street. Buy it or dont buy it you will lick the Cops balls to restrain him using any means. You are a moron !

  50. MarkU says:
    @Kouros

    It is likely they called for the ambulance when the guy was already dead, and they sped that death, instead of stopping it, which was very easy to do.

    The time that the ambulance was called can surely be established, so hopefully speculation will not be needed on that point.

    I agree that the police actions were sub-optimal in the event, even if only for appearance sake the restraint position should have been changed. It wasn’t exactly bright to restrain a person in that sort of position when they are claiming they can’t breath anyway. It takes a special kind of stupid to do so in full public view, knowing full well that they are being filmed doing it, I mean what could possibly go wrong? What were they thinking? Didn’t anyone think “What if he is dying of an overdose or something, what will it look like”.

    However, for pretty much the same reasons, I am not inclined to believe he/they deliberately intended to cause death, if that were the case they would have been more aware of appearances.

    I note that the police version of the incident has been suppressed to avoid “tainting a potential jury pool” and “impair[ing] all parties’ right to a fair trial,” Given the massive amount of one sided publicity given to the prosecution account, that decision is ridiculous. Derek Chauvin has already been tried and convicted of murder in the media, a fair trial is surely impossible anyway.

    • Replies: @Avery
  51. @alan kerns

    You have written a load of steamy horseshit. As Nick Stix alluded you must have pulled this from a time bubble of 1860. In case you have not noticed we are now in 2020 with the Chimps running out of control. Get real and dump all that brotherly love and cum bye ah.

    I tell you what, the next time you are near to a ghetto, enter it and walk through it shouting all the crap you have written above.

    The one good thing that will come of your canter through the hood is that Unz will be one idiot commenter less !

  52. @The Alarmist

    Well I also have another question for this Kouros dunderhead. He should try to subdue a felonious monster as big as Floyd and with a history of violence and prison time. A pitiful specimen like Kouros would be writing with a pen in his mouth, in his wheel chair while his 24/7 nurse changes his diapers.

    This Kouros’s comment was the most foolish I have ever read. He must be some kind of simpleton or Chimp lover.

  53. Redman says:
    @Kouros

    All possible. But maybe you have not seen the full panoply of videos (none of us have) and believe “too (little) in the professionalism or well intentions of the police.” As others have noted, the missing bodycam videos should shed light on Floyd’s physical and mental state at the time he was being put in the police car.

    PCR is examining evidence and noticing facts. You seem to be subject to the emotional clouding of reason he is describing. To wit, making generalized statements without any factual foundation to support what you “want to believe” is true.

    PCR can now add you to the list of readers whose “opinions” rest upon emotion instead of logic.

  54. @Tusk

    Consider checking out the transcripts of the bodycam footage here

    Hmm…

    This website is under heavy load (queue full)

    We’re sorry, too many people are accessing this website at the same time. We’re working on this problem. Please try again later.

  55. Redman says:
    @Hahaha

    What about mixed with Meth?

  56. Redman says:
    @Franz

    Agree. Here in NYC, there has been a big spike in men OD’ing on the street. I’ve noticed it myself for some time (Frequently on subways) and have often wondered what cops would do in that situation. The situation is fraught with risk.

    I wouldn’t want to handle that.

  57. @Unanimous

    So can you take a shot at explaining why George Floyd was complaining that he could not breathe prior to any attempts to restrain him with a knee pin?

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
  58. @Kouros

    In my mind you would not stop at killing everyone on the planet in order to take control for your self. You are a rabid dog.

  59. @DarthPimpin

    “Dummy with two legs.” That’s a good one. Discredit the truth by making it look ridiculous.

  60. The ruin of the productive American economy is the root cause of almost all social ills … find those who dismantled industries and exported jobs overseas, mainly to China, to punish them severely, physically and financially to start remedy the nation or it’s all lost.

    • Agree: Emily, Emslander
  61. @Pigmeat

    Give a good example and shoot yourself.

  62. I am physician.

    The reason a patient wakes up after fentanyl anesthesia is that the anesthesiologist supports the patient’s breathing ( and other vital signs ) while under. If the doctor simply walked away , the patient
    would surely die. In fact, to treat a fentanyl overdose , one would mechanically support breathing while reversing agent (narcan) takes effect.

    Also, Floyd had potentially lethal dose of morphine (another narcotic)in his blood as well. He also had methamphetamine and THC present which could have altered a classic narcotic stuporous state with added agitation and delirium.

    He had significant coronary artery disease which could have caused fatal arrhythmia under stress of arrest or resisting arrest, hypoxia from respiratory depression from narcotics, excitation from methamphetamine, or even by itself.Shortness of breath alone can be a symptom of an impending heart attack without chest pain. Or chest pain could have been masked by narcotic . People die of apparently unprovoked heart attacks and sudden arrhythmic deaths every day.

    There were no signs of brain ischemia or airway trauma.

    Remember , one has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer killed Floyd. One does not have to prove that Floyd died from drugs or heart disease, only that it was not unreasonable.
    It is clearly not unreasonable that he died from drugs/ heart disease instead of at the hands of police.

    Could things have been done differently that might have saved his life, in retrospect?
    Maybe.
    Perhaps narcan could have been given at the scene.
    Remember, though, these are policemen with a person resisting arrest, not emergency room physicians in a cooperative setting.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  63. Avery says:
    @MarkU

    {” It wasn’t exactly bright to restrain a person in that sort of position when they are claiming they can’t breath anyway. It takes a special kind of stupid to do so in full public view, knowing full well that they are being filmed doing it, I mean what could possibly go wrong? What were they thinking? “}

    Right.

    All the relevant facts will presumably be argued in court by both sides, assuming Chauvin does not cut a deal and decides to go to trial and take his chances with a jury (or judge).

    However, what did Chauvin in, is exactly what you wrote. Maybe he is so jaded, or so had had it with Floyd*, that he just didn’t care anymore. His smirking face, with left arm nonchalantly on his leg, while Floyd was dying – looks awful.
    Damning optics, as they say.

    ________________________________________________
    * Apparently Chauvin and Floyd worked as private security a while back at the same club. And may have known each other. Imagine that.

  64. Redman says:
    @Unanimous

    Ok. So why was Floyd complaining about not being able to breath BEFORE being put on the ground?

  65. Agent76 says:

    No! It was a knee it his neck that was fatal!

    May 27, 2020 New video shows Minneapolis police arrest of George Floyd before death

    Four white officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been fired from the Minneapolis Police Department, but Mayor Jacob Frey is saying that one of the officers should be arrested for pressing his knee on Floyd’s neck.

    • Replies: @Chet Roman
    , @KenH
  66. @The Alarmist

    If the cops shot him there would have been no need to kneel on him

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  67. @Parlezvous

    Interesting article, except

    Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from.

    is complete nonsense.
    Cops are not diagnosticians. They are trained to react, not to conditions, rather how people present. A diabetic slurring words and unsteady on his feet, due to low blood sugar, will be suspected of being intoxicated. High blood sugar may make him appear violent.
    Hindsight is 20/20. Cops are trained to react, not stand back and run 50 possible scenarios through their heads before making an informed decision. If the cops were following protocol, they are not “absolutely wrong”. They would have been wrong not to follow protocol.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @KenH
  68. @FB

    PCR is NOT a doctor,

    Are you?

    When in fact all doctors who have spoken about this have said Floyd showed NO SIGNS of going into overdose,

    Then those doctors are committing malpractice. Viewing a video taken many feet away from the patient without interaction with the patient or someone with the patient does not qualify as tele-medecine. No licensing body for physicians allows a diagnosis without examining the patient or diagnostic tests on the patient. That would include you, if you are a physician.

    • Troll: vot tak
  69. Rurik says:
    @The Alarmist

    A knee on the neck gives you enough leverage to restrain a large guy…

    Can you describe a better way to handle the situation?

    It would have been better if the cop would have got off his neck when he seemed to be passive and unresisting, and complaining of not being able to breath.

    Yes, he was saying he couldn’t breath way before the knee was on his neck, and I’m convinced the knee didn’t kill Floyd, who died of (likely a combinations of) other reasons.

    But when a man is subdued, and unresisting, and looking like he’s increasingly placid, and gasping that he can’t breath, then if for no other reason, the simple optics, (knowing they were being filmed), would have been a cue to get off his neck. Especially in our current societal upheaval and hysteria over the deaths of some other black men- lied about in the ((media)) to make it look like they’re all deaths by white racism.

    • Agree: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @Druid
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  70. Rurik says:
    @Tusk

    They also started performing CPR once he became unconscious. So they provided him with all the medical care they could and waited for the professionals to come and take him..

    I sure didn’t see that part.

    Do you have any evidence for that?

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Tusk
  71. @Agent76

    No, not according to the autopsy. And Jacob Frey is a soy boy Bolshevik, not a doctor or a police officer. If he was doing his job he would know that the knee on the neck restraint is a police department authorized technique and has been used hundreds of times. And was not the cause of the thugs death.

    • Replies: @Agent76
  72. NobleOne says:
    @Kouros

    The knee on the neck was a practice taught by MPD to their officers. They have since banned it. Knee was not on windpipe at all. A wrestling coach copied the exact maneuver for the same time to show it is fairly harmless…he was fired for it.

    Officers are not chemists or doctors. They do not know what exactly is wrong with perps they deal with. And they are not going to risk themselves or public if they can help it while bringing them in. Ridiculous to think they should be goving medical doses. Blacks will riot over anything: racial profiling, police abuse, overdoses by police, Fredric Douglass statues, etc

    The only excuse for black behavior is genetics.

    • Replies: @Druid
  73. Case Reports Chest
    . 2013 Apr;143(4):1145-1146. doi: 10.1378/chest.12-2131.
    Fentanyl-induced Chest Wall Rigidity
    Başak Çoruh 1, Mark R Tonelli 2, David R Park 2
    Affiliations expand
    PMID: 23546488 DOI: 10.1378/chest.12-2131
    Abstract
    Fentanyl and other opiates used in procedural sedation and analgesia are associated with several well-known complications. We report the case of a man who developed the uncommon complication of chest wall rigidity and ineffective spontaneous ventilation following the administration of fentanyl during an elective bronchoscopy. His ventilation was assisted and the condition was reversed with naloxone. Although this complication is better described in pediatric patients and with anesthetic doses, chest wall rigidity can occur with analgesic doses of fentanyl and related compounds. Management includes ventilatory support and reversal with either naloxone or a short-acting neuromuscular blocking agent. This reaction does not appear to be a contraindication to future use of fentanyl or related compounds. Chest wall rigidity causing respiratory compromise should be readily recognized and treated by bronchoscopists.

  74. @Dieter Kief

    Saw the video of Big Floyd and Kimberly Banks. Difficult to say he was overweight or had diabetes.

  75. @Emslander

    I’ve noticed that the more prestigious the degree a young person has, the less able they are to engage in a rational discussion on any subject.

    About 25 years ago, I was chatting with an older acquaintance, who was a retired railway labourer, about the economic fraud being perpetrated on the public. He said ‘It doesn’t take a big education to see what is going on in this country. My three boys are in university. It seems the more they learn, the less they understand.’ One of the boys was in accountancy, another in business. The third dropped out of university, took up a trade, and the last I heard, didn’t have much to do with his brothers. The two university grads still believe in the mystical “market forces”.

  76. The death of St. Floyd is a stunt.
    The ruling banking cabal made a decision: time to start a race riot. They made a video and activated their communist agents in BLM and Antifa to begin the riots.

    The Communism that the Jewish overlords are attempting to impose on America has nearly 0% popular support. They have spent decades trying to embitter blacks and still haven’t really gathered much in terms of a revolutionary cadre. Nevertheless, they are moving into active insurgency mode and have many major corporations backing their play.
    They have no hopes of success without disarming America.
    Good luck with that Jews.
    They continue to expose themselves to more and more ‘normies’ while confirming many of the already aware’s worst suspicions. They won’t be happy until they impose one gov’t, one religion (satanic) and one currency (bogus).
    I’m really looking forward to treason trials. At some point, it will become unstoppable.

    • Replies: @Druid
  77. @vot tak

    Ah, the “medical expert” pcr “proves” once again all the other medical experts are wrong and Floyd did die of a drug overdose despite the heroic attempts of the sainted men in blue to prevent his self initiated demise.

    Roberts has never claimed to be a medical expert. He has reported on what medical experts have concluded. The fact of the matter is that there were no medical experts at the scene to assess, in real time, what was happening. Apparently, the coroner, in your opinion, is not a medical expert, despite having dissected Floyd’s body and ordered testing on body fluids. It would seem the second pathologist signing off on the coroner’s report isn’t an expert either. However, the medical experts, who have never seen George Floyd in person, spouting off about their theories, are more credible than those who examined the body and reviewed the autopsy report before it was released.

    Did you miss the number of times in the body cam transcript that the cops asked Floyd if he was “on” something and what it was? If the dumbshit had told them, he might have survived.

    • Troll: vot tak
  78. @Unanimous

    Direct injury to the lung from trauma, broken ribs, infection, heart failure, being held in a stress position so the chest cannot expand, will cause distress and the person will complain bitterly.

    None of which were present in Floyd’s case according to the autopsy report.

  79. Jiminy says:

    If Floyd had died in New York , I’m certain his death certificate would simply have read, cause of death: covid19. When you watch the plane crash investigation shows on tv and they trace the disaster backwards to a determining event, here you go back and see that Floyd would be alive today if he had said no to drugs. Take drugs, shorten your life. Simple as that. Certainly blame the cops, his parents, maybe even society but if a grown man doesn’t respect his own body then nobody else will. Maybe the only way to solve these types of deaths is to have trained medicos travelling constantly in tandem with the cops. But what is the cost benefit.
    And concerning a knee to the throat, I know I would not last eight minutes, let alone half that if someone kneeled on my throat. I still can’t believe that people think that a knee to the neck killed Floyd.
    Working with the scum of society rubs off on cops eventually, and Chauvin seems no different than a lot of others, but here it appears that he and his colleagues were doing everything right by the book. Maybe those baying for blood need to look elsewhere, perhaps higher up in officialdom. Condemning the cops for doing the right thing seems very harsh.

  80. Thank you for this article. I also appreciate the running commentary on the state of American education. Although you have me by two decades, we both come from a place where we were taught to think rather than emote. You say it so well in the following excerpt.
    This perversity of education spells the end of the United States. The kind of people American education is producing are not capable of scientific thinking. The kind of education Americans receive today cannot produce scientists or engineers. We have the emotive generation, people trained to be guided by emotion.
    The inability of American education to produce people capable of thought is already our reality.
    I have found that lack of logic and inability to think in a linear fashion is passed off as an artistic temperament. If that isn’t a line of bunk I don’t know what is.

  81. KenH says:
    @Agent76

    Only two of the four officers involved were white. And knee restraints were part of MPD’s procedures at the time. Get your facts straight.

    • Replies: @Agent76
  82. geokat62 says:
    @Curmudgeon

    If the cops were following protocol…

    I think this will become the central issue of the trial.

    As this video illustrates, there is overwhelming evidence that police departments in the US have become increasingly militarized by receiving training from the Israeli military.

    Israel is Training US Police

    There is also evidence that the protocols the Minneapolis police department is expected to follow do in fact include the knee to neck restraint.

    • Thanks: Rurik
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  83. @Dieter Kief

    I posted this on the last Floyd thread, put it’s worth posting again. Check out this excellent article covering the data on fentanyl, neck-holds, and police procedures for dealing with suspected cases of “Excited Delirium:” https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

  84. FB says: • Website
    @RT

    The presence and level of inactive Norfentanyl indicates that the level of initial Fentanyl was much higher than the final lab results show.

    That’s exactly right…which also means it is FALSE to say he had a blood level of 19 ng/ml at the time of death as is being claimed here…

    He actually did have a higher level at one point much earlier, which is when he would have nodded off and passed out…any doctor will tell you overdoses don’t work that way…you lose consciousness at the point that the level is at a PEAK…not after it has dropped off quite a bit…

    [Anesthetic fentanyl] has a byphasic mode of action with a pronounced depression of the respiratory centre in the first phase.

    Now you are getting into medical territory which obviously requires expert level of medical knowledge to discuss…are you a doctor…?

    One important aspect is tolerance…the medical literature discusses an anesthesia blood level of 10 to 20 ng/ml, the higher figure being nearly double that of Floyd, but it would be assumed that the patient has not been a regular user of fentanyl and thus has no tolerance…

    The question then is would a patient with a high tolerance need a higher dose yet to be put under…?

    The point is that it is stupid on its face to discuss the possibility of an overdose, if you have no medical training…all the doctors and pathologists that have joined the public debate have come out with a lot of factual statements that Floyd did NOT present the symptoms of overdose…that is a FACT…

    Not one single doctor has come out and said Floyd overdosed…

    Think about that for a moment…is the entire medical community wrong, and a bunch of armchair ‘experts’ on the internet are right…?

    Do you not think a doctor is not able to recognize an overdose when it is happening…?

    The overdose issue was discussed right here on this website by a regular commenter, The Scalpel, who is an emergency physician [and also West Point graduate]…

    Fentanyl is very short acting. It’s effects peak almost immediately and drop off in minutes. So whatever he had when he died, he had more before he was “arrested” and was doing fine.

    Plus there is the issue of tolerance which makes it impossible to predict a lethal dose. Meth acts similarly fast, but drops off more slowly.

    Still he was doing fine before the police arrived when his levels were as high or higher.

    The Scalpel discusses Floyd overdose possibility, Unz Review June 8…

    You will notice that Ron Unz then kicked off a lengthy debate with the doctor, so I suggest you follow that thread…

    But again, I stress…why doesn’t PCR bring us the info right from a forensic pathologist…?

    That would seem to be very easy to do, if there was any truth at all in this ‘overdose’ fantasy…

  85. Kouros says:
    @Kouros

    To all respondents,

    Yes, there might be difficulty in restraining a big fella. There were at least four police officers in the proximity, and while there was a bit of a struggle, it wasn’t something to difficult to handle.

    never considered that the police was onto killing George Floyd.

    Nobody, nobody commented on the issue of police not being trained and equipped to deal with overdosed people, especially opioid overdoses. Being able to provide quick help is essential and other jurisdictions have enabled police with syringes with Naloxone and try to use those rather than tasers or guns.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  86. “And then there are the many readers for whom it is of the utmost emotional importance that Floyd was murdered by white police for racist reasons. These readers are immune to all facts. One told me that fentanyl is not toxic. Another told me that it is not possible to overdose on fentanyl. Yet another told me that the medical examiner is white and his report is a racist report. Another asked me when did I become a racist.

    In other words, they only want to hear what they have been brainwashed to believe. Facts have no importance to them. Indeed, there are no facts, only emotional responses, and they are indoctrinated with the emotional response that is valid. As long as the response is anti-white, it is valid.”

    I ran into just this the other day with my relation to a Leftist organization I had volunteered to do some technical work for. The group originally appeared to be a legitimate and more open Left organization than I have seen in recent years. But in the end they were as close minded as any other such group.

    I tried to present Dr. Roberts’ findings to them on this subject not to convince anyone of its legitimacy but simply as a different perspective to be considered. I even did some research on Dr. Roberts’ earlier article on this subject regarding the existence of a second autopsy. Using an article from the Daily Kos, a Left leaning rag, that promoted the existence of this second autopsy I looked at the links they provided to only find that they pointed to the very original autopsy report that Dr. Roberts provided in his original essay on this matter. So much for journalistic integrity.

    When posted to this Left organization’s chat board for consideration, no one wanted to hear of it. All they cared about was Floyd was dead and that was all that mattered. I tried to explain that it did very much matter, considering that Floyd’s death sparked so much outrage and national trauma, somehow transforming him into some type of martyr.

    Yet, again, people asked why I was posting such information when the matter was implicitly settled.

    One leader of the organization told me to stop posting such “Right-wing crap” or I would be removed (cancelled). I told her to go ahead and remove me, which she promptly did.

    Though I agree with the general grievances of The Left, this side of the political spectrum appears to be populated with very immature adults and even more ignorant younger people not to say the least of all the various proponents of their biological victimhood. They have no sense of honest, historical relevance to anything they do and really don’t care. As long as things conform to their very limited world view, they are satisfied.

    Though I tend to be somewhat conseratative with my opinions on things, I could hardly be considered Right-wing in my views. But I do insist on historical honesty for our past and our current events (which means legitimate debate on such matters). But The Left will never yield on this, which makes them I believe as dangerous as the extreme Right…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @TheTrumanShow
  87. @FB

    So the protocol is to ‘help’ a man needing medical attention by kneeling on his neck

    Actually: Yes.

    In 2018, the MPD [Minneapolis Police dept.] published a report on the use of ketamine in excited delirium. Attached to this report is an authoritative document on excited delirium entitled “White Paper Report on Excited Delirium”. A white paper is an authoritative report. The MPD attached this white paper because it was considered by the MPD the most authoritative document on excited delirium syndrome (ExDS).

    The report specifies the nature of ExDS, the symptoms of ExDS, as well as what police officers should consider when dealing with those they suspect of suffering from ExDS. The report is long. First, let’s backtrack and establish that the officers did in fact suspect excited delirium. WaPo hosts the original government complaint:

    Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”

    * * * * *

    The White Paper goes on to describe the dangers of excited delirium, both to the officer and the suspect. This information is important, and explains why the officers responded as they did:

    “Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”

    — “LEOs must also be aware that remorse, normal fear and understanding of surroundings, and rational thoughts for safety are absent in such subjects.”

    — “ExDS subjects are known to be irrational, often violent and relatively impervious to pain. Unfortunately, almost everything taught to LEOs about control of subjects relies on a suspect to either be rational, appropriate, or to comply with painful stimuli. Tools and tactics available to LEOs (such as pepper spray, impact batons, joint lock maneuvers, punches and kicks, and ECD’s, especially when used for pain compliance) that are traditionally effective in controlling resisting subjects, are likely to be less effective on ExDS subjects.”

    — “The goals of LEOs in these situations should be to 1) recognize possible ExDS, contain the subject, and call for EMS; 2) take the subject into custody quickly, safely, and efficiently if necessary; and 3) then immediately turn the care of the subject over to EMS personnel when they arrive for treatment and transport to definitive medical care.”

    — “In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”

    — “There are well-documented cases of ExDS deaths with minimal restraint such as handcuffs without ECD use. This underscores that this is a potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself, sometimes reversible when expert medical treatment is immediately available”.

    https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

  88. Mefobills says:
    @KenH

    For decades the Jewish owned media and universities have besmirched the founding of America and its history until 1965 along with blood libeling the white population.

    Yep…. but it is longer than decades, because owning the press/narrative is part of Jewish evolutionary method. Jewish usurpation via press and book publishing, goes back in time even further than 150 years as discussed by Luther Pierce in link below.

    https://russia-insider.com/en/beast-has-controlled-america-150-years-jewish-owned-media/ri30791

    • Thanks: Druid
  89. @Kouros

    Kouros has gone to a great deal of trouble to remain totally uninformed:

    From the newly-released transcripts that are part of a legal filing by Lane’s attorney, Earl Gray, who has requested that the Hennepin County District Court dismiss the case against his client:

    The transcripts reveal that as the officers forced Floyd into the vehicle, the 46-year-old black man said: “I can’t breathe” and “I want to lay on the ground.”

    • Replies: @Kouros
  90. Mefobills says:
    @KenH

    along with blood libeling the white population

    Ken, I was thinking more about this.

    The blood libel is part of Holocaustianity, the newest Jewish religion.

    It is no longer the Jew (Roman Soldier as proxy) killing Jesus on the Cross.

    Now it is a German SS trooper killing Jews, who are nailed to the cross.

    White men in general, especially Christian Whites, are proxies for the SS.

    White Christian men might pogrom or kill jews, who are nailed to the cross. ohhh gaaawd!

    Holocaustianty twists and inverts reality, but in the end… “It is good for the Jew.” The End always justifies the means.

    • Agree: Druid, KenH
  91. @Dieter Kief

    What’s the German for Coffin Dodger.

  92. Mefobills says:
    @FB

    But again, I stress…why doesn’t PCR bring us the info right from a forensic pathologist…?

    You don’t need a pathologist, you need a biologist.

    I am Floyds size, even bigger actually. Did you ever look at Floyd’s neck muscles?. He’s got a pretty solid well muscled neck, and I wouldn’t want to tangle with him. (I have fought big men, and it is not fun.)

    The windpipe runs down the middle of your neck and is flanked by muscles on the side.

    I’ve pressure tested my neck, and while it is uncomfortable It can take considerable pressure when said pressure is delivered from the side. I can still breath with side pressure.

    It is easy to brainwash people, which is PCR’s argument.

  93. @pepperinmono

    Thanks. Your comment deserves much greater publicity. Not that the MSM will give it any.

  94. @FB

    This is an extraordinary ignorant statement that misrepresents my report.
    I reported the findings of toxicologists as to what constitutes a fatal dose.
    I provided a link to what are known to be consequences of an overdose–precisely the symptoms Floyd showed, both in this article and in a previous one: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/07/07/there-is-no-second-autopsy-of-george-floyds-death/

    Floyd asked to be removed from the squad car and to lay on the ground. A quote from Floyd from police recordings given as court evidence is at the top of this article: “I can’t breathe” and “I want to lay on the ground.”
    The restraint technique does not strangle people or cut off blood to their brain. It is a technique taught to police and used thousands of time. The police were trying to keep Floyd still so that what little oxygen he was able to get would keep him alive until the medics arrived. He was on his stomach because nausea is one result of fentanyl overdose and the police did not want Floyd choking to death on his own vomit.

    So many commentators who hide behind false names are incapable of reason and simply emote.
    They are narcissists and it makes them feel good to denounce people who know a lot more than they do. Some are also self-righteous and enjoy engaging in ignorant moral denunciation.

    “A picture is worth a thousand words.” And the picture Americans saw was interpreted for them by a dishonest media. Their ignorance of anatomy made it easy for the presstitutes to deceive them.

    • Agree: Mefobills
    • Replies: @FB
  95. FB says: • Website

    Some commenters have asked for references in the literature for the point I made about surviving overdose at far higher fentanyl levels than that in Floyd’s blood toxicology report…

    Here is a paper by a group of physicians who treated 18 fentanyl overdose patients in about a one week period in 2016…only one out of the 18 did not survive…

    All 18 patients tested positive for fentanyl in the serum. Quantitative assays conducted in 13 of the sera revealed fentanyl concentrations of 7.9to 162 ng/mL (mean=52.9 ng/mL)

    Note that highest number is FIFTEEN TIMES Floyd’s blood level…the mean [average] of all those patients is about 53 ng/ml…about FIVE times Floyd’s level…

    Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill

    So clearly a lot of people have survived a dose of fentanyl much higher than George Floyd…this medical data immediately invalidates the very notion that a number like 11 mg/ml is de facto a ‘lethal’ dose…clearly it’s not…

    And again I stress…in the entire medical community NOT ONE DOCTOR has come out and said Floyd died of an overdose…is the entirety of medical science completely ignorant…?

    Or is it the case that a bunch of completely unqualified people are googling the internet for medical literature [which any doctor will tell you requires a level of expertise to put into proper context] and pulling numbers willy nilly, and then simply making doctor-like pronouncements…?

    Please find one single pathologist or emergency doctor who will say that Floyd died of an overdose…

    If and when you do so, then we can start having an intelligent discussion…until then this kind of discussion is just pure nonsense…

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  96. RT says:
    @FB

    Yes, I am, two bord certifications, one – anesthesiology. I guess, this makes me an expert on Fentanyl. This is not to claim that I know the cause of death of this man, I don’t.
    On Fentanyl, in healthy patients – after IV injection the onset of anlgetic effect is about 3 min., the peak of analgetic effect about 6 min., duration of anagetic effect – about 60 min., half elimination time – 219 min. I measured those myself to confirm what is already known long time ago.Notice: healthy, IV, analgetic effect, blood availability does not drop fast, but half of it in about 3 1/2 hrs. It is not the ultrafast Remifntanyl. In patients with differrent comorbidities, eg. in shock, differrent protein binding capacity, or in the presence of other substances those times differ substantially. It is not entirely predictable or is very unpredictable if the rout of administration is not IV, but other – bucal, skin patch, subcutaneous, digested etc. It will require you to become my resident to go at lentgh on those hundreds different combinations and their applications for Fentanyl pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics. However, in the case of Mr. Floyd, it might mean that he had it via different than IV rout and we cannot say for sure how much and low long before the event.
    Fentanyl causes from mild to severe respiratory depression, which can manifest any time, even after the analgetic effect expired, sometimes hours after administration, especially in people with obstructive sleep apnea, cardiac diseases etc.
    I also causes in a very unpredictable manner severe chest rigidity to the point of us being unable to ventilate with high positive pressures. I had those cases, odly, all in patients for coronary bypass surgery.
    Regarding tolerance or acute tolerance, it is well known (ref. Amercan Society of Anesthesiologists) that Fentanyl (and some other, too) develops the so called differential tolerance. That is, in chronic users or sometimes much faster, tolerance to the analgetic effect develops, but not to the respiratory effect. The user is still highly sensitive to the respiratory effect of Fentanyl even when he cannot feel the analgetic/psychic effects anymore.
    What is used in patients, who were chronic high dose users to put them under? Different drugs and modulators.
    I am not sure if Naloxone, if applied immediately in Mr. Floyd’s case could change the outcome, given that he had other serious comorbidities, possibly pulmonary complications of COVID infection and high stress of the arrest, as shown in the video. It is a probably a case of gross medical negligence, leading to the fatal outcome, although, I am not sure how much we can expect from police in this regard. It needs proper investigation and establishing the causality of each factor and cofactors.

    • Thanks: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Genrick Yagoda
  97. @Mick Jagger gathers no Mosque

    I don’t know if Mick Jagger has ever been shot at (by a women and / or Keith Richards….), but he did suffer from serious heart problems lately.

  98. KenH says:
    @Curmudgeon

    is complete nonsense.

    I noticed that too but didn’t have time to respond. I’m glad someone else noticed that pathetic disclaimer.

  99. FB says: • Website
    @RT

    Thank you…

    Judging by your articulate and technically informed answer, your claim to be a physician specializing in anesthesiology appears credible to a layman like myself…[what is your second board certification…?]

    You also state…

    This is not to claim that I know the cause of death of this man, I don’t.

    Which then implies that this article and others like it that seek to present as a fact that he died of an overdose are not supported by medical science…?

    Then there is the very basic question of whether Floyd was presenting symptoms of an overdose…the many doctors, including pathologists, who have spoken publicly on this have said no he did not…he was able to stand, to talk etc…

    Is your opinion in divergence with this view…?

    Do you see signs of Floyd going into overdose…?

    Then there is the issue of the pressure on his neck and back…many here say this is no problem…while doctors all say that positional asphyxia is a very real danger, even to people in good health…

    That is to say, even someone who is not on drugs and has no health problems can be killed by applying enough pressure on the back and neck…the mechanism of which, if I understand the doctors correctly, is that the back pressure will impede the diaphragm muscles from expanding the lungs and taking in air…plus the neck pressure can reduce blood circulation to and from the brain and reduce the amount of oxygen-carrying blood necessary to sustain basic function…

    These observations about positional asphyxia seem to be medical facts beyond any dispute…would you agree…?

    So if we put together the observation from the doctors that say he did not present symptoms of going into overdose, plus the observation that the neck and back pressure would cause even a healthy person to lose consciousness and even die at some point, then how medically valid is it to say that he died of an overdose, and that the pressure on his back and neck was irrelevant to the outcome…?

    • Replies: @RT
    , @Bombercommand
    , @Anon
  100. Kouros says:
    @Paul Craig Roberts

    I haven’t seen the transcripts and I will take them at face value, that in conjunction with the blood test results, George Floyd was under drug influence. The cocktail of drugs would probably made it harder to identify it as an opioid overdose, since just opioids will make people quite unresponsive and will ultimately inhibit breathing.

    However, the complaints of incapacity to breath should have made police officers concerned. It is clearly that many jurisdictions in the States have poor police training, and their recruitment goals hit only up to certain level of intelligence (this being a site that dedicates a lot of space to people’s IQs, it would be interesting to see the level of IQ targeted on those recruited and trained as police officers).

    Getting training to identify opioid overdoses and respond to them is really not a rocket science (I got such training myself). For God’s sake, people learn to administer themselves their insulin! Would be such a burden on the police officers, since usually they are the first to respond to a 911 call (being more numerous in the territory than ambulances or fire fighters…) and given the opioid crisis in the US?

    So my claim that the police could have saved Floyd’s life by recognizing the symptoms and administering the required drug is by no means overstretched and would be part of the “serve and protect” thing. Or that applies to private property and the owners of private property?

  101. @RT

    And this is what is known as a Cat 5 butt-kicking.

    Well done!

  102. @L. Guapo

    The gaps in the footage are completely ignored because context is the enemy of journalists.

  103. Avery says:
    @FB

    {Please find one single pathologist or emergency doctor who will say that Floyd died of an overdose…}

    No idea which argument re Fentanyl is the valid one, but in the current atmosphere NO pathologist or doctor will publicly say Floyd died of an overdose*. It will be professional suicide. They will mostly likely lose their job, or shunned and harassed at work and “voluntarily” leave. Worse, the mob will surround his/her house, follow them everywhere they go, will terrorize them to no end, with MSM egging them on,…..they’ll have to go into hiding.

    There is no upside for them to speak up.

    ____________________________
    * When the trial is held, in about a year, defense will surely bring in experts to so testify.
    (they’ll be paid, so there is some upside then).

    • Replies: @FB
  104. Mefobills says:
    @Kouros

    nobody, nobody commented on the issue of police not being trained and equipped to deal with overdosed people, especially opioid overdoses.

    I got pulled over on my motorcycle once. When I got off and turned to face the policeman, his eyes were already wide, and he was back pedaling.

    I am telling you normies who are not in the 99 percentile of height and weight, that a big man is treated differently by the cops. Try to think outside of your box.

    We modern humans are not that different than our cave-man ancestors and instinct kicks in whether you want to admit to it or not.

    Also, as PCR says, you cannot strangle somebody with side neck pressure. If that were the case, we would see many strangulation cases on smaller people than Floyd.

    We don’t see those sort of strangulation statistics, now do we?

    • Replies: @Kouros
    , @L.K
    , @Loup-Bouc
  105. Agent76 says:
    @Chet Roman

    Review the video it does not lie like government agent’s!

  106. Agent76 says:
    @KenH

    It was the knee and it helps if you view and listen with the recording if you are older than 18!

  107. George Floyd, higher than a kite on a drug that impairs breathing with a serious heart condition and covid19. If that’s not reasonable doubt that the police caused his death, there can be no reasonable doubt. There can only be guilt for holding him restraint as he died of self-administered poisoning. The guilt of the white man for restraining the negro criminal.

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks
  108. The way the facts are now coming to light can we expect an aquittal? And, how will an aquittal sit with our MMSM? I forsee a guilty verdict in the lower court followed by a severe prison sentence for Chauvin. This will be reversed on appeal sometime ( 2years?) later, when things cool down. The guys I worry about are the father and son arrested in Georgia for killing the thug Arbery. Also, the white couple who painted over the BLM sign and are now charged with a hate crime. The law is ridiculous. I think there has to be a victim, someone injured, for there to have been a crime. Who’s the lucky victim in that case?
    World in chaos.

  109. RT says:
    @FB

    Surgeon.
    Mr Floyd was overdosed, it is proven by his lab levels of more than one narcotic. Did this kill him? Could be, I don’t know, not all overdosed die, but many do. Could the pressure on his neck in prone position kill him, I don’t know either. I was not there to see him myself.
    How much pressure? Do we know? I had many years ago a 17 years old donor, who was restrained in a youth centre by four people pressing (sitting actually) him down until he passed. He was brain dead, but his heart was beating and undamaged, as were the other organs. They managed to cut the blood flow to his brain. Not the same here, I think.
    As I said, a proper investigation is needed before jumping to conclusions. Any conclusions.

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
    , @FB
  110. Kouros says:
    @Mefobills

    I understand the intimidation one can have when confronted with a bigger and apparently stronger individual. Ultimately it is just physics.

    As it is also simple physics that an opioid addled person, opioids that interfere with breathing by incapacitating the autonomous nervous system coordinating the lungs (ordering them to move), if is sat upon with a knee on the back, will make that breathing even more difficult, nay, impossible.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  111. FB says: • Website
    @Avery

    Well…that is simply a postulation, based on what, a gut feeling…?

    It also doesn’t change the fact that every doctor who has spoken, including The Scalpel speaking here anonymously, say that Floyd simply did not present overdose symptoms…

    Now why would they go that far in the opposite direction…?

    Nobody is going to give them extra ‘brownie’ points to come out and give a medical opinion that is ‘politically correct’…?

    Doctors are men and women of science…there is an ethical obligation that comes with that, as well as a respect for scientific truth…for people who aren’t in the profession to now impute some kind of motivations of fear and ‘career suicide’ seems a little overwrought to me…

    The fact is that there are plenty of doctors who are talking about it…like in this article, where a number of forensic pathologists give very clear and unambiguous remarks…

    The Two Autopsies Of George Floyd Aren’t As Different As They Seem

    Here we see that the idea of excited delirium syndrome is dismissed unanimously by all the doctors, giving very precise medical reasons…yet here on this website we have had an article by another amateur ‘doctor’ claiming exactly that…

    Maybe the reason that no single doctor in the world is saying ‘overdose’ is because it is simply far fetched, and inconsistent with medical science…?

    I dare say Occam would be far more likely to agree with this statement than with yours…

  112. @Genrick Yagoda

    “I can’t breathe” is part of the same arsenal of negro excuses like “I dindu nuffin” (which Floyd also said according to the transcript). They’ll say anything they think can get them out of cuffs

  113. @FB

    Not one single doctor has come out and said Floyd overdosed…

    How is this an argument? It doesn’t matter how many doctors do or don’t say it if they didn’t perform the autopsy. The smart doctors won’t say shit either way since they haven’t inspected the body and have only seen edited video clips of the incident.

    Besides, what doctor would risk losing his medical license for uttering heresy against the Cult of Floyd?

  114. FB says: • Website
    @Paul Craig Roberts

    So many commentators who hide behind false names are incapable of reason and simply emote.

    They are narcissists and it makes them feel good to denounce people who know a lot more than they do. Some are also self-righteous and enjoy engaging in ignorant moral denunciation.

    No, I happily admit that you know much much more than I do on many subjects…which is why I have been reading you for years, exactly for that knowledge and wisdom…[I would not have bothered spending so many hours with you otherwise…]

    And this is also why I am profoundly disappointed that you have now chosen this line of speaking about the Floyd incident…you have shown so many times to be far above this kind of thing…and I simply cannot understand why you are pulling yourself down, when you have so much more to give…

    The media lying and painting false narratives is a complete fact of course, and I will never deny that you have and continue to be a valiant and courageous soldier here…but we now also have an entire medical community that is unanimous on things that look like basic medical facts…

    So I will still say that unless you seek out some expert opinion on this, then you will not get my vote of confidence on this…

    PS…I will never think of you as an unkind person…I know how much you care for your beloved cats, and how deeply you were affected by the loss of one of the brothers some time ago…I hope the other one is still with you…

    • Agree: Jazman
    • Troll: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @map
  115. @geokat62

    I have been consistent since day 1 in questioning whether departmental protocol had been followed. Contrary to what many here believe, by suggesting the cops should have done something different, the cops are at greater risk had they did not followed protocol, than if they did. The prosecution could/will then argue that the death was caused by failure to follow protocol, regardless of the quantity of drugs in Floyd’s body that, it appears, is the likely cause.
    Militarization is a bigger issue than the relatively few people who die at the hands of police every year. The protocols for that ramps up the potential for conflict. There will always be rogue cops (those intentionally not following protocols) and idiots that fail to follow lawful directives. The question becomes which came first, the militarized rogue cops or the growing number of idiots that don’t follow lawful directives? Either way the result will likely end badly for someone.
    Nobody deserves to die in the street, whether in police custody or not. Assuming he is dead and the incident did happen, it is becoming ever more apparent that George Floyd made bad choices, which ultimately led to his demise. That includes taking large quantities of drugs, not following lawful directives, and not telling the cops what he had taken, when they asked (if he even understood what they asked).
    To me, the fake bill is a red herring. I can’t understand why 3 cars/6 officers would respond to a telephone call about an attempt to pass a $20 bill, and subsequent shoplifting of something worth less than $20 dollars. Something is not right about that.

  116. @RT

    Thanks.
    You have confirmed my position that unless an MD who has not examined Floyd, or studied all of the diagnostic testing, is in no position to diagnose. The coroner has issued a report. If someone disputes it, only another pathologist or diagnostician who repeats the process is in a position to dispute. The rest of us are speculating.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
    , @FB
  117. Mefobills says:
    @Kouros

    As it is also simple physics that an opioid addled person, opioids that interfere with breathing by incapacitating the autonomous nervous system coordinating the lungs (ordering them to move), if is sat upon with a knee on the back, will make that breathing even more difficult, nay, impossible.

    That is probably very close to the truth. The “back pressure” can be observed in the video, although it is not so much as to prevent Floyd from moving around.

    Floyd was able to breath as he was having a conversation with the cops. If you are being strangled you are not able to talk.

    Some pressure on his back would make breathing shallow and would add extra stress. Stress along with co-factors such as drugs in his system was the likely cause of death.

    That also doesn’t excuse Chauvin who kept kneeling on Floyd even when the crowd was becoming enraged, indicating Chauvin is probably a psychopath.

    • Agree: Kouros
    • Disagree: Joseph Doaks
  118. @FB

    FB, you are missing the most important point it RT’s comment: Fentanyl users, like opiate users, through regular use acquire a “tolerance” to the euphoric effects, and require higher and higher doses to achieve the same euphoric effect. However, Fentanyl has another, more dangerous effect: respiratory depression. Unlike a users growing tolerance for the euphoric effect, there is no corresponding “tolerance” for the respiratory depression effect. Therefore discussions of “did Floyd overdose” that revolve around if Floyd had sufficient Fentanyl for a classic “euphoric effect overdose” are intirely irrelevant. I think the discussion should be was the dose Floyd had sufficient for a fatal “respiratory depression” episode. Note that RT mentioned that a crisis caused by a respiratory depression overdose could occur a long time after taking the drug, unlike a “euphoric overdose”, that occurs almost immediately after dosing as the body is at the highest level of drug at that time. All this is of critical importance when discussing this case, and ignoring it means grave misunderstandings and false judgements are the result.

  119. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Naidamast

    For reasons I can’t quite articulate, your post was a phenomenally pleasant read, akin to a vision of pensive serenity.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
  120. Crazy Horse says: • Website

    By the way the knee on the neck is a restraining technique used by the IDF to restrain the indigenous population. That said though according to the original autopsy there is no evidence that George Floyd died of anything other than a massive drug overdose. A second “autopsy” that claims otherwise was by “Magic Bullet” Baden from what I understand.

    The only reason why the guy has any cred is because he for once correctly concluded Epstein was murdered. Something many of us already knew. So he’s sorta like a broken clock.

    Personally I’ll go with the original ME report because if anything due to political pressure they’d be forced to find otherwise but instead went with the truth. Unlike Baden who as far as I’m concerned is a totally political animal.

  121. FB says: • Website
    @RT

    Mr Floyd was overdosed, it is proven by his lab levels of more than one narcotic. Did this kill him? Could be, I don’t know, not all overdosed die, but many do.

    Okay…you say his blood levels ‘prove’ overdose…but my question wasn’t about the numbers…numbers don’t kill, as you point out yourself above…it is the physical processes that kill, I think as a doctor you would agree with that…so it would seem rather empty to say, that based on ‘numbers’ he was ‘technically’ in some kind of nebulous ‘overdose’ territory…that doesn’t answer anything…

    BUT, did he look like he was about to lose consciousness and go into a medical emergency…?

    What I’m getting at here is that you are evading some of my very precise questions…doctors that have commented say he appeared ‘fine’…in other words did NOT look like he was about to lose consciousness, and that he appeared to be in no imminent danger…

    So here is a big question…is it not the issue of presenting symptoms that he was about to lose consciousness, such as his chin dropping to his chest, eyes closing etc…that is the important medical indicator here…?

    Here again is the important logic from a medical perspective…if he looked to be in no imminent danger, as many doctors are saying, then it follows that it was the subsequent police intervention that played the decisive role in ending his life, as both pathologists have concluded…

    Or, conversely, if he appeared on the video to be going into unconsciousness and distress, then the subsequent intervention could not be classed as the major cause of death…?

    One of those has to be right…which one is it…?

    Is the medical examiner wrong by saying the cause of death was the ‘subdual, neck pressure’ etc…?

    Could the pressure on his neck in prone position kill him, I don’t know either. I was not there to see him myself.

    But every doctor has seen the videos and they have all said that the information depicted is in fact vital to reaching some basic medical conclusions…or maybe you disagree with that too…?

    And there was also pressure on his back, not just the neck…but that does not answer my very specific question about positional asphyxia being medical fact…again you are being evasive, not a good sign…

    So again, which is it, in regards to the positional asphyxia, are the doctors wrong…?

    Your answers so far are very ambiguous…

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
    , @RT
    , @roonaldo
  122. Loup-Bouc says:

    Sad. Very sad. Dr. Paul Craig Roberts has transmuted from a rational, intelligent, prudent professional to a lunatic who publishes his psychotic fantasies premised on wilful ignorance and determined fallacy. Often Dr. Roberts vilifies journalist he calls, appropriately. “prestitutes.” Alas, Dr,. Roberts has become a prestitute. If you incline to see why I say so, see ALL of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comments

    • Replies: @Mefobills
    , @Parsnipitous
  123. L.K says:
    @Mefobills

    “Also, as PCR says, you cannot strangle somebody with side neck pressure. If that were the case, we would see many strangulation cases on smaller people than Floyd.”

    Strangle no, but a “blood” choke can sure as hell kill, IF maintained too long after the person loses consciousness. People with medical issues may be at risk as well, even if the “choke” is let go. Watching the video, I recall Derek Chauvin keeps his knee to neck hold for quite a while AFTER Floyd passes out. Whether or not this actually had anything to do with Floyd’s death, I don’t know, especially after all the CRUCIAL evidence that Mr. Roberts, John-P. Leonard, and others have brought up to our attention. Besides, I got no medical creds.

    But I have been involved with martial arts since age 7, when I started in Judo. As an adult I picked up BJJ, which I still do, purple belt. I’ve put lots of people to “sleep” over the years, and have myself been rendered unconscious, through vascular chokes.
    From experience, I’d say that blood chokes are basically SAFE, provided the “chokehold” is released in time, and the person is healthy. In controlled environments, never witnessed anything bad happen… but, I do recall a couple of tragedies leading to death, in uncontrolled situations. One in the US, a younger brother(or cousin), around 16, killed his 20something older relative by keeping the hold too long. Another one was a sort of background bout in Brazil, 2 kids around 12, “supervised” by a completely irresponsible adult. Same result. Must be other cases, but it is rare.
    At the end of the day, Chauvin’s exercised poor judgment, ( or poor training) even if he did not actually influence Floyd’s death. The moment the man passed out, he should have released his knee hold, or at least adjusted it to relieve the neck area.

    • Thanks: Mefobills
  124. @FB

    You entirely failed to read and comprehend RT’s comment #97. A new element has been added to the discussion: the “respiratory depression” effect of fentanyl. The respiratory depression effect can be mild or severe, can occur even hours after a user takes fentanyl, and most importantly, unlike the euphoric effect, there is no growing tolerance to the respiratory depression effect by regular use. This means than St. Floyd could have been taking higher and higher doses of fentanyl as he developed a tolerance for the euphoric effects, but was unknowingly crossing the line into a fatal dose of the respiratory depression effects, and this crisis could have occurred a long time after he ingested the fentanyl. This puts an entirely new light on the “I can’t breathe” meme. “I can’t breathe” could be entirely unrelated to the the police restraint actions.

  125. RT says:
    @FB

    Yes, may be ambiguous, because the facts presented to the public are ambiguous. The pressure asphyxia does exist with extereme pressure applied. Did it occur in this case, I cannot say with the facts presented. Possibly, but this is not an assertion that it actually happened, it is up to the autopsy performer to see if there are pathological signs of damage, indicating that fatal excessive pressure was aplied. I cannot ethically give precise answers to your precise questions, because there are not precise observations on my part, but only fragments, based on published material. Sorry, I will not make conclusions one way or the other based on fragments.

    • Replies: @FB
  126. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Mefobills

    …as PCR says, you cannot strangle somebody with side neck pressure. If that were the case, we would see many strangulation cases on smaller people than Floyd.

    More of Paul VCraig Robert’s willfull lunacy or desi8gned fallacy. The matter is not that the cops “strangled” Floyd. Strangulation is irrelevant.

    More of Paul VCraig Robert’s willfull lunacy or desi8gned fallacy. The matter is not that the cops “strangled” Floyd. Strangulation is irrelevant.

    The medical matter is:

    Officer Chauvin’s side-of-neck knee-press choke-hold oressure and one or two other cops’ dorsal thorax pressure (the two, combined, mechanical-compression causes of Floyd’s death) A)(i)collapsed a carotid artery or jugular vein or both and hence deprived Floyd’s brain of blood and oxygen and his lungs of air and (ii) blocked carbon dioxide expulsion and, thence, (B) resulted in asphyxia caused by (i) brain-hypoxia, (ii) airway-obstruction, (iii) breathing-restriction, (iv) cerebral-blood-flow prevention, (v) fatigue of respiratory muscles, (vi) blockage of pulmonary blood flow, (vii) blood acidosis triggering Dyspnea, and, ultimately, cardiac arrest.

    The legal matter is:

    [MORE]

    Because the cops did not desist when Floyd said he could not breathe and then fell unconscious, the cops’ conduct “enhanced” the foreseeability of Floyd’s death & concomitantly rendered their conduct the cause of Floyd’s death. Notwithstanding Floyd might have died later for reason of some comorbidity like fentanyl intoxication, that undeniable legal truth suffices to convict the culprit cops, because of
    * (a) at least 150 years of unbroken line of Anglo-American decisional law applying the eggshell skull rule and a causation rule requiring proof that an action was merely a proximate cause of death, NOT the proximate cause of death
    * (b) the clearly applicable warnings set forth in Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995), https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw
    (c) the video evidence perceived by any sane, unbiased, intelligent person — video evidence that EVERY apparently objective medical EXPERT has considered evidence indicating cop-conduct-induced compression-caused asphyxia leading to cardiac arrest.

    See ALL of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comments

  127. @FB

    “Think about that for a moment…is the entire medical community wrong, and a bunch of armchair ‘experts’ on the internet are right…?”

    That seems to be the case regarding some aspects of Covid19!

  128. Mefobills says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Loup,’

    You link doesn’t work… try this instead.

    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Loup-Bouc

    I read some of your comments. You spend a lot of effort denigrating others, even to the point of being a spelling policeman.

    Break through in thought often happen in a team setting, where other people can trigger others and so on, so that new thought and insights can happen.

    For example, Kouros brought up the subject of back pressure, which added something new to the discussion.

    Your denigrating PCR is not helpful, especially when his insights are based on evidence and facts (even if you disagree).

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  129. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Mefobills

    I cannot divine what link you think does not work. Just a few second ago, I tried both links. Both work.

    Dr. Roberts’s “facts” are NOT facts. If you READ, without bias (if that is possible for you), all my comments posted at https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comments , you will see that Dr. Robert’s article is not factual or medically or legally tenable. It is toxic dross that deserves contempt, because of the grave harm such toxic dross can cause.

    • Agree: vot tak
  130. @Kouros

    Try to watch the video of them trying to get a belligerent Floyd into a squad vehicle and Floyd fighting and kicking his way out. How is it that you missed that video?

  131. FB says: • Website
    @RT

    Well…I’m going to let it go at this point because you are not providing any additional clarity whatsoever, nor are you going to…too bad…

    But I will take exception with one medical technicality on which I do believe you are incorrect…

    The pressure asphyxia does exist with extereme pressure applied. Did it occur in this case, I cannot say with the facts presented.

    Possibly, but this is not an assertion that it actually happened, it is up to the autopsy performer to see if there are pathological signs of damage, indicating that fatal excessive pressure was aplied.

    The way I, as a layman, understand it is that it does not require ‘damage’ or trauma to tissue for asphyxiation to occur…

    …the actual autopsy report doesn’t mention the word “asphyxia” at all. It does, however, describe “neck compression” as a direct cause of Floyd’s death — meaning the blood flow (and, thus, oxygen) to Floyd’s brain and heart were cut off.

    It doesn’t take physical trauma to asphyxiate someone.

    You can make someone lose consciousness just by compressing the arteries and veins in their neck, cutting off blood flow to and from the brain…After that video we know why he died…

    Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County, PA

    So there need not be any trauma or signs of ‘life threatening’ injury left in any case, and is why the Hennepin medical examiner ruled the cause of death as neck compression…

    Also we know from martial arts that such a ‘blood choke’ is a well understood grappling maneuver that certainly does not result in any tissue trauma…

    Really, I find this particular wording of yours quite problematic…it shows you are definitely shading towards a non-factual presentation here…again, too bad…

    [Heck even couch potatoes know about the Spock ‘nerve pinch’…😀]

  132. @Curmudgeon

    Just a minor correction to your otherwise excellent posts, the medical examiner issued the report, not the coroner. Their duties and offices are quite different.

    I hate to be persnickety, because I understood exactly what you meant, but given the other side’s constant mixing up their frame of reference in order to pretend the facts are on their side, I think it’s important to draw this distinction.

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  133. FB says: • Website
    @Curmudgeon

    To the surgeon and anesthesiologist RT, you replied…

    You have confirmed my position that unless an MD who has not examined Floyd, or studied all of the diagnostic testing, is in no position to diagnose. The coroner has issued a report. If someone disputes it, only another pathologist or diagnostician who repeats the process is in a position to dispute. The rest of us are speculating.

    Aha…so now we call it what it is, speculating…and that the ruling from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner that the cause of death was due to ‘neck compression’ and the manner of death was ‘homicide’ is in fact the most sensible conclusion after all…

    And of course since the same medical examiner never once mentioned the word ‘overdose’ nor placed the presence of drugs or other health issues in the direct cause of the death, but only as ‘contributing’ factors, then we may logically conclude that this entire nonsense about Floyd dying from a drug overdose is just that…nonsense…

    Glad to see you coming to your senses…

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
    , @Curmudgeon
  134. roonaldo says:
    @FB

    RT is giving you good advice in your quest for definitive answers. You had emphasized the 10-20 ng/ml serum level of fentanyl for anasthesia.

    12/29/2010, Scientificamerican.com, “The Body Under Anasthesia Tracks Closer to Coma than Sleep.” The article says brain activity EEG levels under anasthesia are akin to brain stem death–basically a drug-induced coma.

    anasthesiology.pubs.asahq.org
    “the intensity of fentanyl’s effects correlates with the drug concentration at the site of action and not necessarily the plasma concentration.” From surgical experience and volunteers there may be found “clinically significant respiratory depression in patients at a steady state Cp (target serum level) of 2 ng/ml or more. We define clinically significant respiratory depression as a requirement for naloxone treatment, resuscitation, or cessation of fentanyl treatment.”

    http://www.emcdda.europa.eu–mentions the 10-20 ng/ml for anasthesia and
    “7 ng/ml have been associated with fatalities where poly substance use was involved… The most serious side effects include dizziness, vomiting, and fatigue…Serious interactions can occur when fentanyls are mixed with heroin, cocaine, alcohol, and other CNS (central nervous system) depressants…Sudden death can also occur because of cardiac arrest or severe anaphylactic reaction.”

    npr.org, 03/21/19, “Fentanyl-induced Deaths: The U.S. Opioid Epidemic’s Third Wave Begins”–“illicit drug supply dealers develop new forms of fentanyl that are even more deadly. The new CDC report shows dozens of varieties of the drug now on the market…Coroners in some states don’t have equipment that can detect one of the new varieties of fentanyl.”

    drugabusestatistics.org–“2018 saw 31,335 fentanyl and fentanyl analog deaths. There were 15,000 heroin deaths.”

    Human biology is staggeringly complex, and the interactions of the drugs in Floyd’s body along with stress, etc., will always leave unknowns. Keith Ellison, Minnesota’s Attorney General, can be expected to try to railroad the cops. Hell, he’d likely apply sharia law and have them summarily executed if he could, but the cops don’t appear convictable, not even close.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  135. TKK says:
    @Unanimous

    Back in May you were an expert in the trucking industry. Are you an ER physician AND a long haul trucker? Citing RFP(s)- you are an emergency room physician who does procurements for the trucking industry?

    Ridiculous.

    Unanimous says:
    May 8, 2020 at 12:32 pm GMT
    @NameAlreadyTaken
    This is not a story. I work in the IL trucking industry and just received this request for proposal. Unfortunately this is not some conspiracy theory which can be dismissed. You can speculate why but I gave you the facts as presented in the RFP.

    • Thanks: FB
  136. @Kouros

    ‘… So, in my opinion, even if the medical report were true and fentanyl was found in George’s system, that is not an excuse for the police. It is likely they called for the ambulance when the guy was already dead, and they sped that death, instead of stopping it, which was very easy to do.’

    So let’s grant all that. How does one instance of police malfeasance — in the complete absence of any evidence that the police treat blacks worse than they treat anyone else — justify blacks across the country running amok, looting everything in sight, and assaulting any non-black helpless enough to offer an attractive target?

    Want to reform the police? Okay, we can talk about reforming the police — but first, let’s address our black problem.

    I can put up with arrogant cops for a few more years. I’ve had it with blacks. This is the end.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  137. roberto1 says:
    @FB

    In general anesthesia a patients airway is supported either by intubation or use of an Lma and their breathing is supported by artificial means, A ventilator in other words. Otherwise they would die, just like George Floyd did. In addition, “up to” means that may be the extreme high end of a dosage, usually less. You obviously know only the incomplete information you’ve read regarding fentanyl use in medicine.

    • Replies: @FB
  138. @FB

    Not if we are talking about the “respiratory depression” effect of fentanyl, a completely separate effect from the “euphoric effect”. This is the key to understanding the unusual number of ODs from fentanyl, these are not the “euphoria effect” ODs one sees with heroin, but something new, and unique to fentanyl. It explains much about the strange circumstances of St. Floyd’s death. Reread my reply to you: comment #125, to fill yourself in on what I am getting at. You appear to be avoiding something. Let’s have a discussion about the “respiratory depression” effect of fenatyl. How about it FB? What are you afraid of?

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @FB
  139. @Loup-Bouc

    Way too short of a response. We here are in dire need of a real multi-scholar such as yourself to parse this out. Could you please elaborate?

  140. TimothyS says:
    @Kouros

    You don’t mean to contend that if you kick someone to death and they have an eggshell skull you could be convicted of murder?
    If you have done your time in prison, you don’t get a death warrant. I am a naive person by nature. It’s very curious that all these cynics don’t think their principles will be applied to themselves.
    @L. Guapo No other alternative than to use a method that is known to be potentially lethal? On a guy who is supposedly overdosing on a sedative? Because you should know that those are mutually exclusive narratives. The first being patently false, the latter potentially true, but which would preclude the necessity of overcoming resistance.

  141. map says:
    @FB

    Listen…asshole.

    What has been shown so far:

    1) You passed off a press release that listed Floyd’s death as a homicide, without telling anyone that such press releases are not material in either legal or medical matters.

    2) You’ve been shown to be wrong on what is included in a Minnesota death certificate. “Homicide” is not a medical term.

    3) You’ve been linked to the actual ME report where evidence was taken verbatim from said report, about the state of Floyd’s health, the fentanyl and amphetamine in his system, his positive Covid test and his possible sickle cell anemia.

    4) You’ve been linked to bodycam transcripts indicating that Floyd had trouble breathing and was asked to lie down before anyone put a knee on his neck.

    5) You seriously thought that medical-grade fentanyl, administered in a surgical theater, with an anesthesiologist, is the same as the street junk Floyd was putting in his system.

    6) PCR has already linked to articles about how much fentanyl you need to take to die.

    PCR has largely proven his point. He may be wrong, but he is not wrong because of anything you’ve said.

    You’ve been debunked.

    Go away.

    • Thanks: Parsnipitous
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    , @vot tak
    , @FB
  142. @Steve Naidamast

    “Yet, again, people asked why I was posting such information when the matter was implicitly settled.”

    Reminds one of the global warming scam claim that “It’s settled science,” when in fact it’s just the opposite.

  143. FB says: • Website
    @roberto1

    In general anesthesia a patients airway is supported either by intubation or use of an Lma and their breathing is supported by artificial means, A ventilator in other words. Otherwise they would die, just like George Floyd did.

    That’s not what anesthesiologists say…

    Can you be under general anesthesia without being intubated?

    Certainly. Endotracheal intubation is required for some operations (especially laparoscopy or other abdominal surgery) but completely unnecessary for others. There are also patient-dependent factors (morbid obesity, full stomach, abnormal airway, etc.) that might make intubation more likely for general anesthesia (GA).

    Also laryngeal mask airway [LMA] is NOT the same as intubation or ventilation, nor is it any kind of artificially supported breathing…

    In most cases the patient under anesthesia will breathe just fine on his own…

    Do you breathe on your own under general anesthesia?

    Sometimes.

    General anesthesia means you don’t move when someone cuts your skin and operates on you. Many times we can do this without controlling respiration.

    …the breathing need to be looked after, supported or taken over at times in general anesthesia. We monitor the patients oxygen carbon dioxide along with the other vitals and that helps us to decide wether we leave it on your own or help you to breath better!

    So your assertion is obviously wrong…being under anesthesia, the patient continues breathing on his own in many types of procedures…

  144. FB says: • Website
    @Bombercommand

    You appear to be avoiding something. Let’s have a discussion about the “respiratory depression” effect of fenatyl. How about it FB? What are you afraid of?

    No, I’m avoiding useless white noise that does not add anything to the discussion here…

    RT, the anesthesiologist, bowed out and declined to answer my precise questions due to ‘ethical’ concerns…

    If you want to get him to further your understanding of how the ‘depressed’ breathing under fentanyl works, then go ahead and ask him to indulge you…

    But here is the important point…if George Floyd was NOT showing any signs of respiratory difficulties WHILE getting his neck stepped on, then how is it that he was supposed to have breathing difficulties before his neck got stepped on…?

    I guess getting his neck stepped on, cleared up his breathing difficulties caused by his ‘overdose’…?

    You can’t have it both ways…he was supposedly breathing just fine because he kept saying ‘I can’t breathe’…

    This is what I mean by useless noise…

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  145. Arcturus says:

    The transcripts show Floyd was disoriented, had breathing trouble and expressed he wanted to ‘lay on the ground’ before any pressure applied by Chauvin.

    I haven’t seen any explanation of these verified facts from those trying to make the case for murder.

  146. @map

    At the very least – tone down FB. Opposing your points is no proof, that somebody is a bad person. But it can lead to other conclusions than the ones you’re holding. This is nothing special. Such are the risks of fair and open debates. Try to figure out if you are willing to take them.

  147. Anon[306] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    why are you so desperate to maintain the narrative?

  148. Tusk says:
    @Rurik

    Yes, once again it is recorded in the bodycam transcript found here:

    Speaker 17 : Okay . You do CPR
    Lane: All right. You want me doing just compressions?
    Speaker 17: Just compressions for now please, thank you .
    Speaker 17: Okay slide [under]
    Lane: All right
    Speaker 17: keep doing compressions. Keep checking airway or just constant
    Speaker 17: Constant compressions.
    Lane: Constant compressions, all right.
    Speaker 17 I can do an airway check if you want inaudible [00:23:53 ]. He had to be detained, physical force, and inaudible 00:24:05 .
    Lane: You got his arm in it? You good?
    Speaker 17 Yep, just get this bar up here. Pull it out, [inaudible 00:24:41] there you go.
    Lane: Want me to pull it out ?What do you need ?I think it’s the cloth which way does it hook ? There we go , there we go. Fuck , sorry
    Speaker 17: You told inaudible [00:24:54] right? Thank you. [ inaudible 00:24:54]
    Lane: Should i still be touching him , or is that going to, electric go .
    Speaker 17: Tell him to come code three we’re working an arrest.

    Pp. 20-21

    The code 3, which the cops upgraded the call for medical services to from a code 2, is expedited service. Lights and sirens, not just get here quickly. As you can see from the transcript though officer Lane is doing compressions, and it appears they might have been using a defib based on the “is that going to, electric go” comment, though hard to say.

    Also on page 63 of the linked transcript there is this:

    Thomas Lane: Advise, what ?
    J. Alexander Kueng: Of code three
    Derek Chauvin: Acknowledge that
    Male 3: crosstalk [00:18:28 ]

    So we know an ambulance was ordered to be expedited around 18 minutes into that bodycam footage. The linked transcript contains two different transcripts for the two officers bodycams, with the second account (wherein they upgrade the ambulance to code 3 around 18m) starting earlier than the last account of Floyd talking which is around 15 minutes in the first account. As such it seems the variance between Floyd going unconscious is less than 3 minutes. This also demonstrates that they started doing CPR about 7 minutes after Floyd stopped responding.

    Now that is a fair while to take, especially when someone is having a heart attack, but at the same time the knee restraint technique was not one that was choking him out. As such the officers would in no way be expecting, due to their police approved restraint technique, to be choking the guy out. What seems most likely is they thought he had calmed down and were waiting for ambulance, then afterwards realised it was a medical emergency and began doing the CPR while awaiting the ambulance still.

    I think one can definitely speak of a degree of negligence in the case, but as I explained in my previous post it seems most likely Floyd died of a heart attack aggravated by the drugs in his system, that the officers were not expecting. As such I cann0t see how it is their fault for killing him when Floyd’s body simply failed him. In fact, if Floyd had entered into the back of the squad care as the officers had requested, instead of Floyd resisting arrest, then they may have noticed his medical emergency and been able to respond more suitably instead of already being in the process of restraining him when he died. However one wants to allocate the blame it is clear from the evidence though that his breathing issues presented before the knee on the neck or he was on the ground, so at that basic level it seems impossible the kneeling ended up killing him when the issue was already affecting him.

    • Agree: Rurik
  149. Druid says:
    @Rurik

    And nine minutes. And him saying he couldn’t breathe. I hate what’s happened since, and I know that was a spark that worked in favor of communist internationalists, but it was wrong and a bit overboard!

  150. Druid says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    I agree with everything you say, but I wonder if they saw an opportunity rather than staged something

  151. Unanimous says:

    Some have asked the reason for Mr Floyd complaining of breathlessness. I haven’t seen the video so can’t give a detailed explanation. Perhaps he was already ill or simply frightened and hyperventilating. Was he handcuffed behind his back? That is a stress position especially for large and out-of-shape persons and will impede breathing.

    Inability to breathe is the worst symptom to suffer and should be taken very seriously by police etc and appropriate help rendered. It can happen to anyone. I think you would want to be treated with kindness and dignity, no matter the circumstance.

  152. @Kouros

    Maybe the author has not seen the full record of the video and blablabla

    Which video? The bodycam video from the cops?

    No one among the general public has — because it’s been deliberately suppressed.

    Why?

  153. @FB

    Btw…fentanyl is used at up 20 to ng/ml as a general anesthetic in surgery…that is twice the amount Floyd had in his system…and patients don’t die, in fact they wake up, despite this level being kept up throughout the procedure to keep the patient under…

    lol

    You’re not serious, are you? This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement. I see that roberto1 has already attempted to educate you, but I’ll expand on that a little bit — let me spell it out for you in more detail, in terms that might be comprehensible to one laboring under the crippling cognitive limitations that so clearly afflict you.

    1. Fentanyl (and other opioids) generally cause death via respiratory depression — breathing either stops, or becomes very shallow, slow, and ineffectual, leading to low oxygen levels in the bloodstream (and, less critically, high CO2 levels.

    2. Generally speaking, causing someone to stop breathing is a bad thing.

    3. But general anesthesia is a slightly different scenario than shooting up in a corner somewhere.

    Let’s take a look. What’s that machine on the left?

    That’s right, it’s called a ventilator. See also endotracheal intubation.

    Patients don’t breathe on their own during general anesthesia. In fact, they’re typically given medications that temporarily paralyze all skeletal muscles, including the muscles of respiration, so respiratory depression is not only entirely irrelevant in general anesthesia, but a desired effect of the medications given. Far more important (especially for the typical use of fentanyl and related drugs in cardiac anesthesia) is its relative absence of adverse hemodynamic effects.

    See also pulse oximetry and capnography.

    Yes, fentanyl is very useful in general anesthesia, and has a good safety record, even in high doses, in that setting. But recreational use (as in Mr. Floyd’s case)? Not so much:

    Fentanyl OD deaths increased another 10% in 2018, to 31,000 — even as heroin and prescription opioid OD deaths plateaued/ dropped slightly.

    Sevoflurane has an excellent safety record as a general anesthetic as well. Perhaps you’d like to try huffing some at home for recreational purposes? (I don’t recommend it).

    • Replies: @FB
  154. 4justice says:

    Paul Craig Roberts,
    I haven’t read all the comments and this may have been said already, but the people taking down our society want us to invade China or Russia and lose. They are ready to jump to the next host or perhaps take over from there.

    “The Clash of Civilizations” was meant to destroy two enemies of the Jewish white supremacists. The US has spent how many trillions of dollars vanquishing the regional competitors of Israel? Despite our hard times, the US just authorized another $38 billion to the ever needy Israel. Our media cannot criticize Israel. The covid-19 shutdown was the greatest looting opportunity yet. Laws have been passed to bar state funds from people who support BDS, despite the first amendment. Pelosi even said to AIPAC if the US crumbled to the ground we would still support Israel. And she is helping it crumble. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

  155. vot tak says:
    @map

    Actually, guardianista, why don’t you go away.

  156. @Unanimous

    Opiates including Fentanyl do not cause respiratory distress. There is no shortness of breath or breathlessness.

    Huh. That’s a pretty categorical statement. Let’s see what Emergency Physicians Monthly has to say about that one:

    Dyspnea [i.e. shortness of breath] After a Heroin Overdose
    “Non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema (NCPE) from opioid use was first described in 1880, and it has since been described with overdoses of several different types of opioids”

    Yeah, but that’s just with heroin and morphine, not synthetic opioids, right?

    BC Medical Journal:

    “A study of overdose patients presenting to two emergency departments in BC found the incidence of fentanyl-related pulmonary edema was similar to that found in previous studies focusing predominantly on heroin overdoses.”

    I have practiced emergency medicine for more than 40 years

    >Practiced emergency medicine for more than 40 years

    >Never heard of opioid-induced non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema.

    Sounds legit.

  157. Smith says:

    I thought FB was an aviation expert, now he’s also a medical expert? I didn’t see he raise such an issue with “police brutality” in Hong Kong.

    The things with “experts” nowadays man.

  158. @FB

    As “map” #142 pointed out, you have been linked bodycam transcripts showing St. Floyd was having trouble breathing before the neck restraint was applied, and you did not dispute this, so the central premise in your comment is unsound. Let’s review what RT wrote in comment #97 regarding “respiratory depression” caused by fentanyl. Fentanyl causes mild to severe “respiratory depression” even after the analgesic effect has expired, sometimes hours after. “Respiratory depression” is especially likely with certain medical conditions such as cardiac disease. Fenatyl produces very unpredictable severe chest rigidity to the point of being unable to ventilate with high positive pressure. In chronic users of fentanyl, “differantal tolerance” is observed, meaning that even as the user becomes more tolerant to the analgesic effect, and needs higher and higher doses to “get high”, there is no corresponding tolerance to the ” respiratory depression” effect of fentanyl. St. Floyd was both a chronic high dose fentanyl addict, and had cardiac disease. It is willful blindness to exclude the possibility that the “respiratory depression” effects of high dose fentanyl did not contribute to his breathing difficulty leading to death. It could be that the “respiratory depression” effect of fentanyl was the primary cause of St. Floyd’s death.

  159. FB says: • Website
    @James Forrestal

    Patients don’t breathe on their own during general anesthesia.

    Wrong, asshat…

    See my comment above, here…

    Also we have been discussing with a board certified anesthesiologist here, in case you missed it…but thanks for your silly pictures…

  160. @Colin Wright

    But the Goodwhite housewives whose daily soap opera was interrupted by the news alert regarding George Floyd’s racist murder still believe that the poor downtrodden blacks are suffering this sort of assault every day and only just now were caught by a public spirited citizen with a cellphone. They are true believers in systemic racism and think the black riots are justified.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  161. FB says: • Website
    @map

    Listen…asshole.

    Oh my, look at the little feller kicking up a fuss…

    Look sonny, I can’t help you see the world more clearly through your single-digit IQ, but don’t you think we ought to make some sense out of your baby talk here…?

    1) You passed off a press release that listed Floyd’s death as a homicide, without telling anyone that such press releases are not material in either legal or medical matters.

    Not so, little burbler…the press release is from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, stating Homicide as ‘manner of death…’ it is a summary of the death certificate, which is most certainly the official ruling of the authorities and is a key legal document…

    2) You’ve been shown to be wrong on what is included in a Minnesota death certificate. “Homicide” is not a medical term.

    Once again, we are delighted that the mentally challenged are encouraged to participate here on UNZ, but please have a look at this and get someone who knows how to read to explain to you what it says…

    3) You’ve been linked to the actual ME report where evidence was taken verbatim from said report, about the state of Floyd’s health, the fentanyl and amphetamine in his system, his positive Covid test and his possible sickle cell anemia.

    Please find one single instance where the word ‘overdose’ is mentioned in the autopsy report…full text here…

    4) You’ve been linked to bodycam transcripts indicating that Floyd had trouble breathing and was asked to lie down before anyone put a knee on his neck.

    Those transcripts also show Floyd begging the cops not to kill him…but they killed him anyway…

    And btw, if he was having trouble breathing BEFORE several police officers put their weight on his neck and back while handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they go ahead do the one thing that would make it even harder to breath…?

    Do you think it’s easier to breath with someone kneeling on your neck and back…?

    5) You seriously thought that medical-grade fentanyl, administered in a surgical theater, with an anesthesiologist, is the same as the street junk Floyd was putting in his system.

    Nobody said anything like that…the point is that a certain NUMBER of fentanyl in your bloodstream does NOT mean automatic overdose and death…

    This has been discussed here with a surgeon and anesthesiologist, and an ER doctor on another thread, who said Floyd was ‘fine’ and looked to be in no imminent danger of any kind of collapse before the police kneeled on his neck for nine minutes…

    Fentanyl is very short acting. It’s effects peak almost immediately and drop off in minutes. So whatever he had when he died, he had more before he was “arrested” and was doing fine. Plus there is the issue of tolerance which makes it impossible to predict a lethal dose. Meth acts similarly fast, but drops off more slowly.

    Still he was doing fine before the police arrived when his levels were as high or higher.

    ER Physician The Scalpel discusses medical aspects of Floyd death

    Every single pathologist and medial examiner that has spoken about the Floyd death has said the same thing…

    The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck, said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands.

    It’s not a claim that he died of a heart attack, drugs, or pre-existing conditions, they told me.

    “The cause of death is police restraint,” Melinek said, just like in the autopsy Floyd’s family commissioned.

    The Two Autopsies Of George Floyd Aren’t As Different As They Seem

    6) PCR has already linked to articles about how much fentanyl you need to take to die.

    If PCR was a doctor, or had even TALKED to a doctor about this, he would have been quickly disabused of his flat-wrong notions about fentanyl dosage…

    Let’s first remember that if there was in fact an ‘overdose’ [which all doctors say wasn’t the case, since Floyd was not presenting any signs consistent with that], the Hennepin medical examiner would have listed that as the cause of death, instead of police restraint and neck compression…and surely some actual doctors would be saying that too…

    That is not the case…as for what consitutes a ‘lethal’ dose, doctors and the medical literature will ALL tell you that there is no such specific MINIMUM number…I already linked above in comment 96 to a paper from doctors that treated 18 patients that survived, with the exception of one single overdose patient…

    The blood levels ranged up to 15 times higher than Floyd’s, with an AVERAGE of five times Floyd’s blood fentanyl level…

    Again, every doctor will tell you the SAME THING…this idea of a non-doctor going out and googling medical literature and then picking out random numbers is complete nonsense…

    The bottom line is that ALL doctors agree…from the official medical examiner, to every other medical examiner in the country, to private practice forensic pathologists, to ER doctors, to lung doctors…EVERY SINGLE ONE…

    No one single doctor says Floyd died of an overdose because that is simply ridiculous and non-factual…

    I have suggested to PCR and others to go and actually talk to medical doctors about their ‘theories’…I would be very much interested in hearing about that…[but not holding my breath, as I doubt that any doctor can support the nonsense being bandied about here…]

    We also have had a discussion in this very thread with a surgeon and anesthesiologist, a fellow going by ‘RT,’ and we have shed at least some light on the issue, but you will note that he cannot endorse or support the idea that Floyd died of an overdose…

    The bottom line is that the official position of the Hennepin County medical examiner is that Floyd’s death was a homicide, and that the cause of death was police restraint and neck compression…the word overdose is never mentioned…

    • Agree: vot tak
    • Replies: @map
    , @Biff
    , @Arcturus
    , @ANON
  162. Wrong

    lol — Good point. Your incoherent, hate-filled bleating is more than simply empirically “wrong” — it lacks even the rudiments of basic internal consistency. I won’t even mention your pathetic failure to even attempt a refutation of the obvious fact that more than 31,000 Americans died last year from accidental overdoses of what you claim is a “perfectly safe drug that everyone should take, all the time, just for the lulz”…

    Is your real name “Dunning-Kruger.” by any chance?

    Perhaps you would care to further amuse us with yet another word salad-laden effort? How about exercising what passes for your “mind” in a failed attempt to explain the distinction between sedation/ monitored anesthesia care and general anesthesia, hmm? What does “loss of protective airway reflexes” mean, moron? Take your time.

    Perhaps you’d also like to “explain” — from your clearly vast knowledge of respiratory physiology, pharmacology, and medicine — your technique for performing high dose fentanyl induction on spontaneously breathing patients? Say, for coronary bypass surgery — a common indication for this technique.

    That should help you to “prove” your “theory” that any medication that can be safely used for general anesthesia, in an intubated, mechanically ventilated patient whose oxygen saturation, end-tidal CO2, and hemodynamics are continuously monitored… can used recreationally with perfect safety as well. Because, uh, you know… reasons.

    Yet despite your claimed fanatical, unquestioning devotion to this ludicrously-ignorant (or deliberately disingenuous) hypothesis, you seem strangely reluctant to subject it to even the simplest of empirical tests — like huffing a little sevoflurane at home. Hey, it’s a very safe drug… for general anesthesia.

    Sad! Clearly you lack the courage of your “convictions.”

    • Replies: @L.K
  163. L.K says:
    @James Forrestal

    ‘FB’ is a well known professional TROLL and spammer with far too much free time on his hands…

    Recently, Ron Unz had this to say about FB:
    https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose

    Well, as mentioned upthread, “FB” is just a total lunatic who claims that the worst famine of the twentieth century occurred in our own country, during which something like SIX MILLION(!!!) *Americans* died of starvation:

    https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/#comment-4000901

    Moreover, “FB” regularly fills his comments with crude vulgarities and profanities, which hardly raise the tone of these discussions.

    Therefore, I think I’ll arrange to have his future comments containing profanities, vulgarities, or other crude expressions trashed. This will either cause him to considerably improve his behavior or permanently depart. And the permanent departure of one total lunatic is hardly much of a loss….

    Indeed. BTW, Unz’s reference was in regards to the following comment by Stalinist shill FB:

    FB:
    so does NOT account for over 6 MILLION AMERICANS STARVED IN FAMINE OF THE 1930s…

    One of the worst famines of the 20’th century…far worse than anything, per capita, than in China or Russia…[where btw the famines occurred BEFORE communism, not during…]

    So, not only this pathetic Stalinist Troll states, without providing an iota of evidence whatsoever, that more than 6 millions US Americans starved to death in a supposed great US famine of the 1930s, but also that well documented famines which actually did take place under Communist regimes, for example under his hero Stalin, in different areas of the Soviet Union, never happened!

    FB, a CLOWN without the makeup.

    • Agree: Genrick Yagoda
    • Troll: vot tak
  164. map says:
    @FB

    Not so, little burbler…the press release is from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, stating Homicide as ‘manner of death…’ it is a summary of the death certificate, which is most certainly the official ruling of the authorities and is a key legal document…

    You did not link to the rest of the press release, that is conveniently cutoff by your image. You know, the text you cut out from the document.

    “Manner of death classification is a statutory function of the medical examiner,
    as part of death certification for purposes of vital statistics and public health.
    Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or intent, and
    should not be used to usurp the judicial process. Such decisions are outside
    the scope of the Medical Examiner’s role or authority. ”

    Basically, the press report is qualifying heavily what its “method of death” classification really means and provide you with a disclaimer. Again, press reports are not legally binding documents and they can have anything in them. Think of it this way: a trade association can release a press report about how well its members are doing, even if the earnings reports show the members are doing poorly. The press release is not a legally binding document. The earnings report is.

    Once again, we are delighted that the mentally challenged are encouraged to participate here on UNZ, but please have a look at this and get someone who knows how to read to explain to you what it says…

    Again, this is vital statistics collecting, and these vital stats are all submitted voluntarily anyway. Did you know that half of the States don’t even report their abortion numbers to the CDC? So, what bearing do CDC requirements have on George Floyd? States are not required to report anything to the CDC and bear no penalty if they don’t.

    Please find one single instance where the word ‘overdose’ is mentioned in the autopsy report…full text here…

    Show me where “homicide” is mentioned in the report.

    In fact, show me where the cause of death is by anything the officer did. Nowhere in the report do we read “Cardio Pulmonary arrest caused by law enforcement neck compression.” This is simply your interpretation from stringing together words in different sections or in different documents. Explain to me why everything is written so cryptically?

    That CASE TITLE is purely descriptive: There was a police subdual, meaning “to subdue.” That subdual involved restrain and neck compression. Complicating, meaning, “in the course of,” said subdual, a cardio pulmonary arrest occurred. None of this proves that the police officer committed a homicide or even caused his death.

    In fact, you are arguing something absurd: that a police officer physically caused the death of another person without leaving any identifying scars or marks related to the method of physical attack. That’s quite an assassin.

    Notice something else in the report: the lack of petechiae. Petechiae are a sign of blood leaking from capillaries under your skin. Capillaries are the tiniest blood vessels that connect arteries to veins. They help move oxygen and nutrients from your bloodstream to your organs and tissues. They also carry waste away from your organs and tissues. If the neck compression really was a cause of death, then wouldn’t you see petechiae occurring in George Floyd? Yet, the ME ruled that out.

    Those transcripts also show Floyd begging the cops not to kill him…but they killed him anyway…

    Delusional hysterics.

    And btw, if he was having trouble breathing BEFORE several police officers put their weight on his neck and back while handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they go ahead do the one thing that would make it even harder to breath…?

    Do you think it’s easier to breath with someone kneeling on your neck and back…?

    No, because I don’t have gills.

    Notice the complete absence of the full body cam video available to the public, unlike the Wendy’s case, where we can see what kind of clusterf*ck that was.

    Nobody said anything like that…the point is that a certain NUMBER of fentanyl in your bloodstream does NOT mean automatic overdose and death…

    No one said anything about automatic. It’s a complicating factor, like having Covid and meth in your system. Yet, you want to ignore that and immediately assume a white and racist cop just walks around and murders blacks.

    This has been discussed here with a surgeon and anesthesiologist, and an ER doctor on another thread, who said Floyd was ‘fine’ and looked to be in no imminent danger of any kind of collapse before the police kneeled on his neck for nine minutes…

    Are these the same doctors over-coding CoVid patients and railing against hydroxylchloroquine? Or, getting royalties from their Gilead patents? Or getting paid more for putting patients on ventilators? Those doctors? Why aren’t their conclusions matched by the medical examiners report that, to be understood, simply requires reading comprehension?

    Do they even know what “pathology” means? Experts will always whore out their credentials for the right price to interested parties. See: Michael Baden.

    The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck, said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands.

    Again, this is the classic correlation/causation problem. Just because two things happened together does not mean one causes the other. It does not mean that the restraint caused the heart to stop. So why are you jumping to that conclusion.

    Fentanyl is very short acting. It’s effects peak almost immediately and drop off in minutes. So whatever he had when he died, he had more before he was “arrested” and was doing fine. Plus there is the issue of tolerance which makes it impossible to predict a lethal dose. Meth acts similarly fast, but drops off more slowly.

    Really? We have 30,000 deaths attributed to fentanyl, but no one really know what the lethal dosage is, or tolerances or anything. It’s all just nebulous on a case-by-case basis. So go take fentanyl, especially off the street. You’ll be fine.

    I mean, don’t you know when you are being gaslighted?

    That is not the case…as for what consitutes a ‘lethal’ dose, doctors and the medical literature will ALL tell you that there is no such specific MINIMUM number…I already linked above in comment 96 to a paper from doctors that treated 18 patients that survived, with the exception of one single overdose patient…

    Oh…ok…18 patients. Do you know what that is called? A statistical outlier. And then there is the talk of “tolerance.” The measure is ng/ml. This is a ratio which controls for the size of the person.

    Again, every doctor will tell you the SAME THING…this idea of a non-doctor going out and googling medical literature and then picking out random numbers is complete nonsense…

    You mean, every doctor cherry-picked by the media and unrelated to the case? Those doctors?

    For what you say to be true, you have to believe that police practice a restraint that causes the heart to stop. This is what you believe. This absurdity.

    • Replies: @map
    , @vot tak
  165. @Joseph Doaks

    ‘…They are true believers in systemic racism and think the black riots are justified.’

    I wonder if they are true believers — or merely realize it’s a lot safer to quack like a duck and not stand out?

    After all, if you publicly say the emperor has no clothes, you’re running risks of various kinds — depending on your position and location. Just stick to the duckspeak, and you can get on with your life.

    The difference will come down the road. When blacks actually need whites to stick up for them, how many will be taking their side?

  166. And then there are the many readers for whom it is of the utmost emotional importance that Floyd was murdered by white police for “racist” reasons. These readers are immune to all facts. One told me that fentanyl is not toxic. Another told me that it is not possible to overdose on fentanyl. Yet another told me that the medical examiner is white and his report is a “racist” report. Another asked me when did I become a “racist.”

    In other words, they only want to hear what they have been brainwashed to believe. Facts have no importance to them. Indeed, there are no facts, only emotional responses, and they are indoctrinated with the emotional response that is valid. As long as the response is anti-white, it is valid.

    Comments like these make more sense when the intended meaning of “racism” is more clearly understood. TL;DR: “Racist” is simply an anti-White slur that should never be taken seriously or used unironically.

    Part of the problem here is the routine employment of a sort of “bait-and-switch” or “motte-and-bailey” rhetorical trick when it comes to the actual meaning of the “racism” canard.

    “Racism” is often understood by the targets of these sorts of attacks to denote something like “behavior that demonstrates ‘excessive’ in-group preference toward members of one’s own race.” This misunderstanding (the “motte”) is widespread, at least in part, because it is deliberately promoted by “racism”-mongers when it’s rhetorically convenient.

    Yet if we delve into what passes for current “scholarship” on the subject — criticalrace theory — that’s clearly not what “racism” means.

    Over the past 30-40 years, from its origins in critical legal studies*, critical race theory has “progressed” from a fringe academic theory to a hegemonic narrative widely promoted (and enforced) by the “news” media. What does CRT dogma tell us about the real meaning of “racism” (the “bailey”)?

    1. “Racism” is very, very bad in some ill-defined by totally real way.
    2. All Whites are “racist”
    3. Only Whites can be “racist”
    4. So-called “systemic racism” is a dominant influence in American society in the current year… while remaining unquantifiable, undetectable, and vaguely defined.
    5. Anyone and everyone descended from the indigenous peoples of Europe shares in the collective responsibility for any “crimes” allegedly committed by any other White at any point in the past — while no such shared guilt devolves onto non-Whites for any of the crimes of any other members of their race.

    So we have a term that has strong negative connotations, a deliberately vague/ shifty denotation — and is targeted only at Whites.

    In other words, the tropes of “racism,” “racist,” etc. are simply pejorative terms for people of European descent — anti-White slurs.

    Accusing a White person of “racism” is equivalent to accusing a Negro of n—-rism. Trying to “defend” against it by claiming “But I’m NOT a ‘racist’!” is the equivalent of a Negro responding to accusations of “n—-rism” by saying “But I’m NOT a n—-r!” Pointless.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  167. Humphrey says:
    @Verymuchalive

    During general anesthesia respiration is supported by a ventilator. If the ventilator fails, the patient would die from respiratory failure if the medication were not reversed immediately with naloxone etc.

  168. Loup-Bouc says:
    @roonaldo

    Your first two referenced quotes are legally irrelevant.

    Either your third reference is dross or you misrepresent its content.

    Your fourth reference is (like the New York Times, Wa Post, and MSNBC) a purveyor of fake news; and your quote is legally irrelevant.

    Your fifth reference is legally irrelevant.

    I have been a physician since 1998, a lawyer since 1968. I became an assistant professor of law in 1972, a tenured associate professor of law in 1976, a tenured full professor of law in 1978. I remain a full professor of law. My published scholarship treats law, medicine, forensic medicine, forensic psychology, math, statistics, propositional calculus, law-related economics, linguistics, and the philosophy of law.

    Please see my comments — ALL my comments — posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article, “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ . You can open the comment thread with this link https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments .

    Under John-Paul Leonard’s above-cited article, occasionally my comments bear a bit of rude language, even ad hominem rudeness — where the object comment-posters deserve contempt or worse. I do not apologize. If you object, enjoy your supercilious pretension.

    I expect that later today, or tomorrow, I shall post my final two comments under Mr. Leonard’s article. I suggest you read those, comments, too.

    Also please see, in THIS thread, my very abbreviated debunking of Paul Craig Robert’s article (which is dangerous toxic dross penned by man who was once a fine economist and useful journalist but has become what he had expressly despised, a “presstitute” and, apparently, a White supremacist): My comment of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127), https://www.unz.com/proberts/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/#comment-4026183 .

    [MORE]

    * [Side note: I ought observe that I am not Black or a supporter of Black Lives Matter. I dislike Black American culture — except (albeit seldom and quite briefly) old fashioned blues and ragtime. But the here-pertinent matter is justice versus the contemnable influences of racist-biased journalism, racism-tainted “law enforcement” — toxic influences of both rabid White supremicism, radical left lunacy AND their harms, manipulated and exacerbated by the American political elite of both the right and the left.

    In one of Dr. Roberts’s Floyd-case articles, Dr. Roberts tries to make a point with his not being able to find in the internet a copy of the independent autopsy of George Floyd. Dr, Roberts appears to argue that the autopsy cannot exist because he (Dr, Roberts) cannot find it in the internet. That, alone, aught to be premise-enough to disregard Roberts’s ignorant, arrogant, near-idiotic rants. But another matter may help. Rarely would legal counsel (in this case, Floyd’s family’s legal counsel) publish (online or anywhere) a document vital to planned litigation, especially before, at, or near commencement of the planned litigation. (Floyd’s family will file, or may have filed, already, either or both a wrongful death lawsuit or a civil-rights-violation action, likely per 18 U.S. Code §242, at least against the police involved in the killing of Floyd. Also, the independent autopsy pathologists are not obliged to publish their findings; and they would violate, gravely, their fiduciary duty if they published their findings without having the permission of the private individual(s) who hired them to perform the autopsy.

    In the article under which THIS comment is posted, Dr, Roberts relies much on medical or pharmacology literature that he is not competent to interpret critically — or even understand. Consistently, he draws invalid inferences form that literature.
    End Side-note]

    This will be the last comment I post in this thread. Dr. Robert’s article — even Dr. Roberts — does not deserve more of my time. Concerning the junk-science, misrepresentations, illogic, speciousness, medical and legal absurdity, and risible arrogance of Dr. Robert’s article and the idiotic, likely racist, comments posted under his article (in this thread) my final medicine/pharmacology/forensic-medicine criticisms are:

    (1) Per “Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill” [hereinafter cited as “Fatal Fentanyl”], SOCIETY FOR ACADEMIC EMERGENCY MEDICINE (2016), authored by Mark E. Sutter, MD, Roy R. Gerona, PhD, M. Thais Davis, MD, Bailey M. Roche, MD, Daniel K. Colby, MD, James A. Chenoweth, MD, Axel J. Adams, BS, Kelly P. Owen, MD, Jonathan B. Ford, MD, Hugh B. Black, MD, and Timothy E. Albertson, MD, PhD, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/acem.13034 , one encounters this:

    The therapeutic (TL) and toxic (TX) serum levels of…fentanyl [are] TL = 1-2 ng/mL, TX = 2-20 ng/mL, lethal [level] >20 ng/mL.

    Quote of the key of Table 2 of Fatal Fentanyl.— which key occurs at page 110 [Table 2 occurs on Fatal Fentanyl pages 109-110.] For the math-symbol-ignorant, I observe that “>20 ng/mL” means “greater than 20 ng/mL.”]

    If you have honor, can READ (not interpolate, subliminally edit, or hallucinate content) and if you can derive VALID factual observations and VALID inferences from legitimate scientific scholarship (like Fatal Fentanyl), you will see:

    (a) From the start of Floyd’s arrest through the instant of his death, George Floyd’s blood did not bear a fentanyl concentration that any honest, competent physician or pharmacologist would deem certainly lethal. Rather, every such expert would conclude that Floyd’s postmortem 11.0 ng/mL serum fentanyl concentration was NOT, ITSELF, likely to be a cause of Floyd’s death.

    Legitimate literature shows that a human can survive despite having a serum fenantyl concentration more 14 times greater than Floyd’s postmortem 11.0 ng/mL serum fenantyl concentration — even while having serum concentrations of hydrocodone, promethazine, and trazodone. Fatal Fentanyl Table 2. [Promethazine is a potentially lethal antihistamine that can interact toxically with hydrocodone or fenantyl. Hydrocodone is a morphine-cognate opioid that can interact toxically with fenantyl or promethazine. Trazodone is an antidepressant that can interact toxically with hydrocodone and can react with fenantyl to cause Serotonin syndrome, which, often, is fatal.]

    In Fatal Fentanyl, the study subjects were live patients (though one died during the study). They did receive hospital treatment. [Five received cardiopulmonary resuscitation, one
    required extracorporeal life support, three required intubation, two received bag-valve-mask ventilation; one suffered recurrence of toxicity 8 hours after naloxone discontinuation; 17 of 18 patients required boluses of naloxone, and four required prolonged naloxone infusions.]

    But you cannot argue, validly, that the study is irrelevant to Floyd’s case because Floyd did not receive hospital care.

    Rather, if Floyd died partly because of his serum concentrations of fenantyl and other drugs, that fact’s legal causative implication is that Officer Chauvin and at least one other arresting policeman’s conduct murdered Floyd — quite because, rather than call for paramedic help when Floyd showed signs of substantial physiological distress (erratic gate, falling…then, under influence of police compression-restraint tactics, said he could not breathe, then became unconscious), Chauvin and at least one other policeman continued their compression-restraint tactics for 2.9 to 3 minutes after Floyd became unconscious.

    But that last consideration is not necessary to the inescapable conclusion that Chauvin and at least one other policeman murdered Floyd. The reason is the “eggshell skull” rule combined with the legal rule that sufficient conviction-indicating causation is a proximate cause of the victim’s death (one of any number of contributory causes), NOT a cause describable as the cause of death. The asserted death-causing event must be an event without which death would not have occurred. But that requirement can be satisfied merely by proof that the event caused enhancement of likelihood (of “foreseeability”) of death.

    Therefore, if (though no one has shown so, because it cannot be shown) Floyd’s drug-doses did threaten his life, still the police murdered Floyd because their acts caused enhancement of likelihood (of “foreseeability”) of Floyd’s death.

    COMPARE, e.g., R v Dear (1996) Criminal Law Reports 595 (England), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dear AND Brackett v. Peters, 11 F.3d 78 (7th Circuit 1993), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1014585782824481484&q=Brackett+v.+Peters,+11+F.3d+78+(1993)&hl=en&as_sdt=7ff87fe0000000000100000000000000004 AND Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008),
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=4,112,127

    (b) If your character and conduct satisfy the conditions I stipulated a few paragraphs above [in the paragraph that begins “If you have honor, can READ”], you will see that Floyd’s death cannot be explained, validly, even by the totality of quantities of the sundry drugs present, post mortem, in Floyd’s blood.

    Example:
    Postmortem, Floyd’s blood and urine bore amphetamines and cannabinoids: blood concentration Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL, urine amphetamines unidentified and non-measured, urine cannabinoids not identified and non-measured, blood cannabinoids metabolites 11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC (1.2 ng/mL), Delta-9 Carboxy THC (42 ng/mL), Delta-9 THC (2.9 ng/mL). [Page 2 of HENNEPIN COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER’S OFFICE AUTOPSY REPORT, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf .] Amphetamines can heighten fenantyl’s lethality potential. But cannabinoids can diminish both fenantyl’s lethality-potential and amphetamines’ potential of heightening fenantyl’s lethality potential.

    Only ONE event can be the legal cause of Floyd’s death. (A drug’s serum blood concentration and an illness, like chronic hypertension, are “events.”) That one event is the combination of compression restraints Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman applied to Floyd’s neck and dorsal thorax. See my pertinent comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s above-cited article. See also my comment of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127) posted in THIS thread, https://www.unz.com/proberts/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/#comment-4026183

    (2) I agree thoroughly with FB’s comment of July 11, 2020 at 5:52 pm GMT (comment # 163) of this thread, https://www.unz.com/proberts/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/#comment-4027575 — which comment refutes not only map’s comment of July 11, 2020 at 4:25 am GMT (comment # 142) but also your comment to which this comment replies.

    • Thanks: FB
    • Replies: @map
    , @roonaldo
  169. Loup-Bouc says:
    @roonaldo

    This comment amends my comment of July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) — which comment replied to your comment to which this amendment also replies.

    [MORE]

    I neglected to include in my July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) the following entry [which ought to have appeared at the close of the penultimate paragraph of my July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172)]:

    See under John-Paul Leonard’s above cited article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” — https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/among others of my comments, these comments:

    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)

  170. @Rurik

    But when a man is subdued, and unresisting, and looking like he’s increasingly placid

    He was having a bad trip on a cocktail of multiple illegal drugs, he was an ex felon, he was just arrested and was probably going to prison for the counterfeit money and illegal drugs, and crowd of hostile black onlookers had gathered around. Not a very placid scene.

    There is a real concern that a heavy built bouncer and ex con, facing hard time, and rational thinking clouded by drugs might risk escape and flight. If he is not pinned, how can they be sure he might not try to get on his feet and flee?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  171. vot tak says:
    @map

    “Go away”, guardianista, bibi needs your bum. 😀

  172. vot tak says:
    @James Forrestal

    Rather rich a likudite zionazi-gay troll would use the name of james forrestal to promote the psywar of those who killed him. But that is how chutzpah works among this freakshow.

  173. @FB

    only one out of the 18 did not survive

    FTA:

    Results:
    One of the 18 patients died in hospital. Five patients underwent cardiopulmonary resuscitation, one required extracorporeal life support, three required intubation, and two received bag-valve-mask ventilation.

    Five needed “cardiopulmonary resuscitation”, so they stopped breathing? Not breathing sounds potentially fatal. I don’t know what “extracorporeal life support” is and whether or not you die if you don’t get it. And “bag-valve-mask ventilation” seems like you might die if you don’t get it.

    Also, there is survivor’s bias, as these are the ones who were got to the hospital alive. If these had OD alone in their house, it sunds like they wouldn’t have made it.

    • Replies: @FB
  174. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    In one of Dr. Roberts’s Floyd-case articles, Dr. Roberts tries to make a point with his not being able to find in the internet a copy of the independent autopsy of George Floyd. Dr, Roberts appears to argue that the autopsy cannot exist because he (Dr, Roberts) cannot find it in the internet. That, alone, aught to be premise-enough to disregard Roberts’s ignorant, arrogant, near-idiotic rants.

    If you are who you claim to be, then you will know the difference between a technical witness and an expert witness. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner is a technical witness. Such technical witnesses are there to simply decide what the facts of the case really are. Expert witnesses are there to spin the technical facts of the case in either the direction of the plaintiff or the defendant. They are, by definition, biased. Such bias is all right, because the legal system is adversarial, but it does not lend greater credibility to an “expert” whose expertise is for sale.

    Furthermore, if you are who you say you are, then you know what an “independent autopsy” entails. It does not mean they hand over Floyd’s body to some independent lab and Bader starts hacking away at it. That would destroy chain of custody. It means that Bader is brought into the room with the pathologist, the pathologist goes over the work with Bader, everything is reviewed under the watchful eye of officers and medical professionals, and then Bader can write a report to kick sand into the evidence. That is all an “independent autopsy” is. In fact, the Hennepin County ME is himself “independent” because he does not work for the police.

    You can quote all your fentanyl studies that you want. It does not change the fact that over 30,000 people have died from fentanyl overdoses. You can, from there, figure out what dosages are potentially fatal for the population. You don’t throw up your hands and declare fentanyl harmless because it depends on tolerances and fatal dosages will vary. Otherwise, companies and doctors would not be going out of business or to jail for over prescribing opioids. Fentanyl already has a very dangerous track record.

    It is equally meaningless to show that, in some limited case, people have survived 15 times the dose that George Floyd had in his system. So what? Has Mr. Predicate Calculus never heard of a statistical outlier? Such outliers are typically ignored. At least, you never treat them as a norm in the data set. This is further complicated by Floyd being on a combination of street drugs with god knows what impurities with which he self-medicated, not medical-grade fentanyl under a doctor’s supervision.

    Here are the facts from the ME report. There is nothing in the ME report that suggests a homicide. In fact, the word “homicide” itself does not appear anywhere in the report. Instead, the word “homicide” is scattered, for some reason, across several uncollated documents, from a death certificate to a press release. Why is it so difficult for these people to show their work? What would you grade a student who told you his evidence was in a paper he submitted in another class? Yet, here we are.

    Furthermore, it is not just the absence of “homicide” that is troubling. There is no unequivocal language in this report. The report does not read “cardiac arrest caused by neck compression.” There is no pathology indicated as to how a neck compression hold leads to cardiac arrest. Those arguing it was a homicide from this report are merely inferring that. The report does not demonstrate that to be the case. The fact that a cardiac arrest happened during a neck hold does not mean the neck hold caused the cardiac arrest. This is a classic causation/correlation problem.

    Look, you are not presenting any “evidence” against the police officers. All you are doing is illustrating the kind of argument you would make against Chauvin and the cases you would site in a court. None of your arguments prove that Chauvin is a murderer.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
    , @Loup-Bouc
  175. @map

    Excellent post. I know you meant to write this, but I’ll add for anyone who has read your post;

    It does not change the fact that over 30,000 people (PER YEAR) have died from fentanyl overdoses.

    On another note, Fentanyl is insanely lethal. I know some people will disagree with me, but if harm reduction is what is intended they would hang Fentanyl dealers and provide real plant based heroin to people who choose to use the stuff.

    Yes, you die from heroin. But the real natural substance is no where near the fire breathing dragon that is the synthetic.

    • Replies: @map
  176. FB says: • Website
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Look, there is only so much mindless noise that I am going to respond to here…

    This garbage being barfed up here by various losers is an insult to one’s intelligence…that’s the problem right there…nothing to do with black or white, or even police violence, which has reached absolutely intolerable levels…but simply the fact that this stupidity on display here cannot but get right up your fucking nose…big time…

    If several of those patients needed breathing support, then it also proves that a number of them DID NOT…

    The AVERAGE fentanyl level was five times that of Floyd…gusting to 15 times higher…

    So it obviously shows that even patients with much higher levels do not necessarily need breathing support…never mind the fact that if his breathing was noticeably impaired then why did they not respond like first responders, instead of snuffing him out…

    This is absolutely retarded…you monkeys just keep going and going in fucking circles…

    The guy was suspected of passing a bad bill to a lousy corner store…big fucking deal…this is what we’ve all been victimized for…?…so some greaseball cop with borderline idiot IQ can get his jollies by riding on the neck of a nigger to prove he’s a big man…?

    How many people may have inadvertently been given a bad bill and then just as inadvertently passed it on…?

    And do we even know yet if that bill was even bad…?

    Come on…there’s got to be a more civilized way of dealing with this kind of thing than to drag a shackled man on the street and then snuff him out in such a grotesque way that millions of us ordinary folks have been victimized by just seeing that…

    I personally know people who have been put on medication because they were so upset by the images…universities across the country canned a bunch of exams for students who were likewise upset…

    Do idiots like yourself know the meaning of SOCIAL COSTS…?

    Why should the decent people always keep paying and paying and paying and paying for the greaseball Chauvins of this world…?

    Do you have any idea of the amount of money that is paid out for cop misbehavior…in your own town or city…?

    No…?…well start thinking about it…because your community needs that money for things like schools and sidewalks and playgrounds and many other fucking things other than paying out millions to citizens that have been stepped on by cops gone wild…

    I’ve had enough with you morons…no sense, no feeling as they used to say…

    Where the hell is civilization…?…guess what we don’t deserve it, because we get the COMMON DENOMINATOR LEVEL…and that’s you lot…pulling us all down with your uncivilized bullshit…

    They’re talking here about blacks going back to Africa…where the hell are the normal folks going to send the armpit demographic like you fucking monkeys…?

    • Agree: vot tak
    • Replies: @map
  177. Loup-Bouc says:
    @map

    I had promised myself I would not post another comment in this thread. But your reply-comment’s bullshit begs debunking just too imploringly. (I shall, however, limit myself to one paragraph, set after I quote your language that I address.)

    You wrote:

    If you are who you claim to be, then you will know the difference between a technical witness and an expert witness. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner is a technical witness. Such technical witnesses are there to simply decide what the facts of the case really are. Expert witnesses are there to spin the technical facts of the case in either the direction of the plaintiff or the defendant. They are, by definition, biased. Such bias is all right, because the legal system is adversarial, but it does not lend greater credibility to an “expert” whose expertise is for sale.

    Though failing to adduce any case, statute, judicial rule, or legitimate medical source that might, arguably, refute my comment’s points, you succeed in stating the risibly wrong assertion that evidence law rules make a “technical witness” and an “expert witness” different beasts. A medical examiner must be an expert forensic pathologist to testify as a medical examiner, and a court will treat the medical examiner according to rules that govern expert testimony and opposing counsels’ examinations of expert witnesses. Your comment’s remainder is equaling mere bullshit. I shall not reply to you again, but my silence shall not imply my conceding any point you try to put.

    • Replies: @map
  178. Biff says:
    @FB

    And btw, if he was having trouble breathing BEFORE several police officers put their weight on his neck and back while handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they go ahead do the one thing that would make it even harder to breath…?

    That little tidbit of logic seems to escape a lot of people, and raises the question of intent.

    If one were to reverse-roll the situation and put Floyd on top of Chauvin do you think some of these other deodorant salesmen would claim that Chauvin simply OD’ed?

  179. Arcturus says:
    @FB

    And btw, if he was having trouble breathing BEFORE several police officers put their weight on his neck and back while handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they go ahead do the one thing that would make it even harder to breath…?

    Where did you get the idea that being in a prone position makes it harder to breathe?

    Doctors have found that placing severely ill coronavirus patients on their stomachs — called prone positioning — increases how much oxygen is getting to their lungs, CNN reported.

    “We’re saving lives with this, one hundred percent,” Dr. Mangala Narasimhan told the outlet. “It’s such a simple thing to do, and we’ve seen remarkable improvement. We can see it for every single patient.”

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241995471.html#storylink=cpy

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  180. roonaldo says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    The materials I referred to are interesting and relevant in themselves, and some are relevant and interesting regarding fentanyl and anasthesia and physiological responses to poly substance abuse. It wasn’t offered as a legal treatise, though I should think defense lawyers will argue the drugs in his system contributed mightily to his demise and show reasonable doubt to culpability of the charges. I laughed to myself as I typed “not even close” in the last paragraph, since trials like this are a crapshoot–and I am certainly no lawyer nor soothsayer. I think the cops could have done better and I also think the charges are overblown.

    You admit to ad hominem rudeness, perhaps you revel in it. Don’t get your knickers in a twist. To the extent your comments about the case are reasoned, I can be interested.

  181. @Genrick Yagoda

    Thanks. Where I live, the tile Medical Examiner is used interchangeably, as coroner’s have “disappeared”.

  182. Smith says:

    Can this virtue signaling with FB and his gang (the Scalpel) go on further?

    In the last decade alone, we see males, females, children being killed mercilessly by all kinds of people from cops, to nigger thugs to jews to jihadist, yet there was no cry about social costs and civilization.

    Yet now 2020, one negro being knee on is the straw that breaks the camel back? Really, after all that bloodletting?

    Naw, there is a narrative being woven here, and it is not honest and shall not to be taken seriously.

    One dead negro does not justify any riot or any toppling of statues, not in USA, not in Japan, not in China, not here in Vietnam.

    @ Biff

    If Chauvin was killed by Floyd, now a black cop, it would not even make the news, nor there woukd be riots about it.

    • Troll: vot tak
  183. @FB

    Aha…so now we call it what it is, speculating…and that the ruling from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner that the cause of death was due to ‘neck compression’ and the manner of death was ‘homicide’ is in fact the most sensible conclusion after all…

    Please provide me with the exact location within that report where that is stated. I note that it does say:

    George Floyd
    20-3700
    Page 2

    III.No life-threatening injuries identified

    A.No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae

    B.No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal structures

    C.No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries

    D.No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column injuries, or visceral injuries

    E.Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks negative for occult trauma

  184. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Arcturus

    Doctors have found that placing severely ill coronavirus patients on their stomachs — called prone positioning — increases how much oxygen is getting to their lungs, CNN reported.

    “We’re saving lives with this, one hundred percent,” Dr. Mangala Narasimhan told the outlet. “It’s such a simple thing to do, and we’ve seen remarkable improvement. We can see it for every single patient.”

    Your assertion disregards the critical language of FB’s point: “…while [Floyd was] handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they [police] go ahead [and] do the one thing that would make it even harder [for Floyd] to [breathe]

    And your assertion disregards (a) forceful neck and dorsal thorax compression that blocks, or substantially blocks, the major blood vessels of the victim’s neck and (b) forceful compression of the dorsal thorax that hinders, substantially, the victim’s pulmonary function.

    Also, since your assertion derives from CNN (one of the monarchs of fake news) and depends upon the putative successes of a single physician whose credentials and activities are mysteries, your assertion can claim zero respect.

    I prefer to presume that your irrelevant and catually/medically false assertion derives from abysmal ignorance, rather than evil design.

    For your edification, see, e.g. my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735), posted under John-Paul Leonad’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    That comment has this link: https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-4030304

    I urge that your read all of my comments posted under John-Paul leaonrd’s article (AND my other comments referenced in my comments posted under Mr. Leonard’s article) — to disabuse yourself of your toxic misapprehensions.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  185. Biff says:
    @Smith

    In the last decade alone, we see males, females, children being killed mercilessly by all kinds of people from cops, to nigger thugs to jews to jihadist, yet there was no cry about social costs and civilization.

    Gawd you are an idiot. I guess Floyd is special for you. You are acting just like Antifa, BLM, and the rest of the liberal crowd in that you’re attacking what should be your natural allies against a repressive State in front of you, while your real enemies are right behind you blowing smoke up your ass. Brilliant work!

    • Replies: @Smith
  186. @Loup-Bouc

    You have failed to take into account “differential tolerance” in chronic fentanyl users to the “respiratory depression” effects of fentanyl. This effect is aggravated by certain conditions, such as cardiac disease. Very odd in someone claiming to be an MD. Saint Floyd was a chronic user of fentanyl and had cardiac disease.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  187. Rurik says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    If he is not pinned, how can they be sure he might not try to get on his feet and flee?

    when the knee finally came off his neck, I’m pretty sure he was dead.

    And before he was actually dead, there was a significant amount of time when he seemed utterly languid. And wasn’t he in cuffs the whole time?

    It’s not that I have a bleeding-heart sympathy for the guy. He was a scumbag. Only a scumbag robs a pregnant mother to be, let alone with threats of violence and a gun. I have zero sympathy for the useless POS.

    But cops are supposed to be professionals, and not allow personal wrath into the performance of their jobs. Sure, it happens, and we all understand the exigencies of the job. That’s why cops are given a wide latitude to use force, because so often the criminals are potentially murderous vicious savages. And under different circumstances, if Floyd were demonstrating a potential threat of some kind, (like the kind you suggest), then that would make the whole scene look a lot different.

    But it’s what we all see on video that is so disturbing.

    It’s not entirely unlike the inebriated guy crawling in the hallway, ultimately murdered by a uniformed thug in that infamous video. Yes, unlike with Floyd, that man was unmistakably murdered, but like Floyd, he looked 100% harmless as he was riddled with cop bullets.

    Restraining a man who poses a threat is not just a good idea, but it’s their job. But ‘restraining’ a man who’s dead, and in those minutes up to his death when he seems utterly limp, (and handcuffed), just seems too callous.

    Maybe cops have a very good reason for becoming so callous- when they deal with scumbags like Floyd, day in, day out. But then too often they treat decent people with an even worse level of callousness, (murderousness- see video of guy in the hallway), and so that’s really the problem.

    And as I’ve said before, this particular case is simply being bull-horned because the ((media)) simply sees it as another opportunity to smear ‘whitey’ for being ‘racist’ and the cause of everyone’s problems, blah, blah, blah..

    It’s just too bad that it wasn’t Jeff Zucker who perished in the gutter while under Derek Chauvin’s knee, rather than the comparatively harmless Floyd.

    • Agree: Bombercommand
    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  188. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    You have failed to take into account “differential tolerance” in chronic fentanyl users to the “respiratory depression” effects of fentanyl. This effect is aggravated by certain conditions….

    And you have failed to account THIS [of my comment to which you try to reply]:

    For your edification, see, e.g., my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735), posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    That comment has this link: https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-4030304

    I urge that your read all of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article (AND my other comments referenced in my comments posted under Mr. Leonard’s article) — to disabuse yourself of your toxic misapprehensions.

    Ten hours after the posting of my above-referenced comment [July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT [(comment # 735) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra)], my wife read that comment. She saw a few typing errors.

    For several reasons (including my never having learned how to type), I type badly. See also my comment of June 28, 2020 at 10:57 pm GMT (comment # 555) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” (supra)), a direct link to which comment is https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-3999334 .

    Near-always, typing errors mar my texts. Worse, even with aid of corrective lenses, my eyesight is poor (suffers blurring and tremor), especially when I read text shown on a computer screen, rather than hard copy. So I do not proofread well, unless I double-proof (proofread simultaneously with another careful, intelligent person, most often my wife).

    My above-referenced comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT [(comment # 735) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra)] was not double-proofed. I shall not cure its errors: they are mere infrequent, brief itches that do not impair the comment’s force.

    White supremacist (and antisemitic) Unz Review authors and readers tend not to commit typing errors. But, flagrantly epidemic — and likely endemic — among White-supremacist (and antisemitic) Unz Review authors and readers are: (a) reading-deficit, (b) attention-deficit, (c) logic-deficit, (d) evidence-deficit, (e) evidence-invention and evidence-misrepresentation, (f) negative and positive wishful hallucination, (g) risible arrogance, (h) prevarication, and (i) a psychopathic deficit of empathy and honor. Rabid hate is their salient virtue.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  189. @lysias

    A fatal dose of fentokneel is when the victim says

    “I cannot breathe ”

    and then holds their breath to frame those in earnest preyerr

  190. @Loup-Bouc

    You have failed to take into account “differential tolerance” in chronic fentanyl users to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl, again. Very odd in someone claiming to be an MD. Please address the subject.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  191. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    You have failed to take into account “differential tolerance” in chronic fentanyl users to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl, again.

    I did “take into account “differential tolerance” in chronic fentanyl users.” You failed to READ (not hallucinate content-absences into) my comments (plural) to which I referred you.

    One need not use your (inanely) preferred (but unnecessary and medicoanalytically crippled, fuzzy, logically defective, pretentious) buzzwords — “differential tolerance” — to account what those buzzwords attempt to imply.

    I accounted not only “differential tolerance” but much more that is markedly more pertinent — much more than recognized (or admitted) by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts and other Unz Reveiw authors and comment-posters who attempt, risibly, to prove that Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman did not murder Floyd.

    See — under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?, ” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-3999334not only my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735), but also AT LEAST all my comments replying to John-Paul Leonard and JasonA. Most such comments bear content directly or tangentially pertinent to the “differential tolerance” matter.

    If you do not (or cannot) READ those comments, fall silent.

    I shall not re-state the voluminous contents of those comments, not only because they would span perhaps more than 100,000 words, but also because your “differential tolerance” point is immaterial

    “Differential tolerance” is irrelevant to the matter of whether Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman murdered Floyd. Under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra), I posted several comments that show, irrefutably, that those police did murder Floyd — notwithstanding the potentially toxic, perhaps even potentially lethal, contents of Floyd’s blood. So, again I refer you to all of my comments posted under the same John-Paul Leonard article (supra).

    See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127), July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172), and July 12, 2020 at 3:13 am GMT (comment # 181) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra).

    I shall not respond again to your comments, because, apparently,
    (a) either (i) you are not a physician or human biochemistry/physiology expert or (ii) you ought not to be such, because likely you endanger others
    AND
    (b) you appear to be pathologically determined to deny the reality of whatever fact or evidence conflicts with your belief(s).

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  192. Anon7 says:

    What we are dealing with is not only the brainwashing of white students as to the evil origin of their country and their inherited guilt, but also their inability to think rationally and to make an objective conclusion from evidence. This was once the purpose of education, but no more. Today students are taught that their emotions are what is true, and their emotions are manipulated by the lies that they are taught.

    This perversity of education spells the end of the United States. The kind of people American education is producing are not capable of scientific thinking. The kind of education Americans receive today cannot produce scientists or engineers. We have the emotive generation, people trained to be guided by emotion.

    The inability of American education to produce people capable of thought is already our reality. We see it in the huge number of work visas in which foreigners, largely from Asia, are brought into the US to do the jobs American educated youth cannot do.

    Pretty good material for an article about a guy who very likely died from a drug overdose. I just thought I’d pull it out. Thanks.

  193. @Loup-Bouc

    Went to your linked comment. You seem to be arguing with John-Paul Leonard regarding his claim to see an object dropped by Saint Floyd. I do not see you discussing “differential tolerance”. I have had the misfortune to have read all of your comments on this article and none of them discuss the “differential tolerance” issue, but you claim to have accounted for it, I do not believe you. IMO the “differential tolerance” of chronic fentanyl users to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl has critical significance to the cause of Saint Floyd’s death. Saint Floyd was a chronic fentanyl user and had cardiac disease which aggravates those effects. Clearly this issue cannot be ignored. You claim you are an MD. I find it perplexing an MD would not be interested in this issue. My position is that since the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl can occur even after the analgesic effect has expired, and in chronic fentanyl users with cardiac disease this effect can manifest as very unpredictable severe chest rigidity to the point of being unable to ventilate with high positive pressures, Saint Floyd could have died without any police restraint at all. Since you, and others, accuse Officer Chauvin of murder by police restraint, an extreme position, it is imperative that my position be raised in his defense. So far no one has brought this up, so now I am. Do you dismiss this issue? If so why do you dismiss it? You claim to be an MD, have a go at me.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  194. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    You read the wrong comment, not the one I linked. You have not begun to read the directly relevant comments. You read only a comment that relates importantly to the ultimate issue of the criminal liability of the cops, but only tangentially to the immaterial matter — “differential tolerance” — that stole your ignoble heart.

    I posted perhaps 30 or more comments. You did not read the first — which sets, vitally, several of the premises of the rest of my comments.

    Apparently your attention-span and “scholarly” patience deficient.

    You wrote: “So far no one has brought this up.” I did.

    Your comment’s remainder consists of emptiness, other than dross. It does not deserve further response.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  195. Loup-Bouc says:
    @El Dato

    The toxic serum fenantyl concentration” range is 2-20 ng/mL.
    But, the fatal range is >20 ng/mL (greater than 20 ng/mL).
    See Key of Table 2 (p.110) of “Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill,” https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/acem.13034

    Floyd’s postmortem serum fentanyl concentration was 11.0 ng/mL — only ≈0.4 ng/mL more than HALF the minimum fatal serum concentration.

    Humans have survived with serum fentanyl concentrations of 162.3 ng/mL. “Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill,” supra, Table 2, case # 6. That serum fentanyl level is 14.75 times the 11.0 ng/mL serum fentanyl level present postmortem in Floyd’s blood.

    I acknowledge that in the case of 162.3 ng/mL serum fentanyl level, the individual received substantial Emergency Room treatment and that, absent such treatment, the individual may (likely would) have died.

    But that individual’s blood bore also:
    Hydrocodone
    Norfentanyl [inactive metabolite of fentanyl, disregarded for the purpose of this comment]
    Norhydrocodone
    Promethazine
    Trazodone

    And the individual lasted long enough to receive treatment — despite those other drug-chemistries (except Norfentanyl) can, alone, bel lethal or can interact with each other or with fentanyl to cause death. See, e.g., my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714), posted under under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?, ” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ That comment’s direct link is https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-4019801

    We cannot know whether, or if so, how long, the case # 6 individual would have lasted without the Emergency Room treatment that individual received.

    But the vital matter is that Floyd’s postmortem serum fentanyl level was only a thin hair greater than half the fatal dose minimum established by “Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill,” supra.

  196. @Loup-Bouc

    I clicked on your link, so I could not have “read the wrong comment”. I have read all your comments on this article, and none dealt with “differential tolerance” leading to a crisis of “respiratory suppression”. You cannot weasel your way out with evasions. Let us discuss all my points in my comment #197. NOW. I challenge you. Discuss all my points in my comment #197. NOW.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  197. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Tusk

    (1) I shall assume, for sake of argument, that Floyd did say “I was just hooping earlier,” and I shall assume, for sake of argument, that Floyd meant “hooping” to denote “taking in a drug by inserting it in his anus.”

    (2) I have long litigation and “street” experience of illegal and unconstitutional police behavior and police department cover-ups of illegal or unconstitutional police conduct. I, lawyer since 1968 and law professor since 1972, provide consultation to attorneys who undertake to do direct appeals and post-conviction-relief petitions. Often I do all the research, write all the court-papers (petitions, motions…….), plan all the strategies, assemble all evidence, determine the choices of exhibits, write texts of affidavits, plan all witness-examinations and advise how to introduce testimonial and documentary evidence…….

    My clients win post-conviction-relief petitions — a remarkable feat, since (after 1995) the yearly average post-conviction-relief-petition success-rate range is ≈0.02% – 0.28%.

    Also, since about 1959, I have witnessed much illegal and unconstitutional police conduct. Thrice, I suffered such malfeasance directed at me.

    One time, police arrested and held without food, water, phone call, or state-provided defense attorney, myself and 13 others hauled into jail on utterly fake charges. In that case, the police malfeasance was magnified by the prosecutor’s manufacturing evidence and a city magistrate judge’s inviting (from the bench) the prosecutor to manufacture more evidence, because, beyond doubt, the prosecutor’s already-manufactured evidence was insufficient. (The magistrate dismissed the case, because the prosecutor did not apprehend the magistrate’ invitation.)

    So, I do not trust anything police or police departments assert concerning events involving abuse, injury, or death of “suspects” arrested or held in custody by police. And I trust little of what courts assert to “justify,” excuse, obscure, or even outright hide police, and police-department, malfeasance.

    Still, I shall assume, for sake of argument, that you report accurately some parts of a court-recorded transcript of Floyd-case police “bodycam” footage. I shall assume also, for sake of argument, that the transcript reports truthfully and accurately Floyd’s and policemen’s statements made at the scene of Floyd’s arrest.

    The transcript does not refute the state’s claim that Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman murdered Floyd. Rather, it is additional proof that they DID murder Floyd.

    As FB suggested, before Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman began applying compression to Floyd’s neck and dorsal thorax, the police had notice that such compression would likely kill Floyd.

    The notice derived from two sources:

    (a) Floyd’s condition, including his “foaming at the mouth” and his being unable to stand, his suggesting that he had recently been “hooping” one or more drugs, the “hooping of which could explain Floyd’s foaming at the mouth (as did Floyd’s related statements), and Floyd’s insisting that he was suffering severe dyspnea.

    (b) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995), https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .

    Those considerations (and sundry other similar considerations), prove that the cops murdered Floyd. Merely one such other consideration is the set of contemptuous statements Officer Chauvin addressed to Floyd while Chauvin applied knee (and shin) pressure to Floyd’s neck despite bystanders’ expressions of fear for Floyd and despite Floyd begged for mercy (because almost could he not breathe) and despite Floyd was, clearly, falling unconscious.

    Police cannot use a “suspect’s” drug-use or criminal history to justify what Chauvin and at least one other policeman did to Floyd.

    [Surely, if the jury included just one juror like you or like Paul Craig Roberts or Bombercommand or roonaldo or map or Dieter Kief or Smith or any of the other White supremacist or racists who author or comment on Unz Review articles, either the jury would be hung or it would return an invalid not-guilty verdict premised on “jury nullification,” NOT the evidence and the law. But, in the context of this and other Unz Review articles and threads that pretend to seek the pertinent legal truth, a racism-tainted-jury prospect or jury nullification is irrelevant.]

    To observe all the technical legal/medical reasons that show the cops murdered Floyd:

    (1) Open John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?, ” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/. Then read my comments — ALL my comments — posted there. They prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction. I shall not re-state those comments here: likely, their sum would constitute more than 100,000 words; and since they reference my significantly pertinent comments posted under other Unz Review articles, the totality might be 500,000 words or more.

    (2) See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127), July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172), and July 12, 2020 at 3:13 am GMT (comment # 181) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra).

    • Replies: @map
    , @roonaldo
  198. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    You appear to believe, invalidly, that my medical/biochemical/physiological/pharmaceuticals observations do not address your buzzwords, “differential tolerance” — because, though in several comments, I address, extensively, quite the matters connoted by your buzzwords, I do not use those buzzwords.

    In several of my comments, I address — with sundry biochemical/physiological analyses — the matter whether, and if so, in what conditions, different opioid drugs’ users or biological systems [sometimes, stupidly, called “targets”] do (or do not) develop tolerance at different time-rates in different effect-degrees.

    You continue not to READ. In your case, the reading-deficit obtains from your bias-engendered a priori premise that I must have failed to address a matter you deem vital — albeit actually the matter has zero legal bearing on the case. Perseveration is an apt description of you malais.

    Taisez-vous, Monsieur Tête-épaisse

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  199. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Tusk

    This comment supplements my comment of July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201).

    Was Floyd having a heart attack while the officers where arresting him? Seems likely.

    Floyd died, ULTIMATELY from cardiac arrest (resulting form carotid artery or jugular vein compression and dorsal thorax compression), not a heart attack, which is not cardiac arrest.

    They also started performing CPR once he became unconscious.

    I viewed likely every Floyd-arrest/Floyd-custody video put online. None showed any policeman performing CPR, unless perhaps after Floyd had been unconscious for about 3 minutes or more, during which 2.9 to 3 minutes Officer Chauvin and at least one other policemen continued applying compression restrains to Floyd’s neck and dorsal thorax. After that 3-plus minutes period elapsed, CPR was useless, because Flout was dead.
    See
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D , especially, BUT NOT ONLY, at time 14:24 to the video’s end.
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/independent-autopsy-george-floyd-findings-announced/story?id=70994827
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/01/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-findings-released-monday/5307185002/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/01/independent-autopsy-finds-george-floyd-died-by-homicide-caused-by-asphyxia/#2602a5de7f8f
    Also, open John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/. Then read my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)

    If your “They also started performing CPR” assertion derives from the transcript you purport to quote, then I must suspect that the transcript bears manufactured evidence — and I suspect so more because otherwise the transcript does not comport with any of the videos I have viewed.

    Funny, Floyd died of exactly the same cause of death that an onlooker predicted and Floyd agreed with.

    Floyd never agreed with what you say an onlooker predicted or what the cops may have predicted. He said only that he was suffering dyspnea. “I know I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe.” “I know. I can’t breathe” does NOT EQUAL “I know. I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe” — as if meaning “I know I may have a heart attack — because I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe.”

    One cannot deduce that Floyd “agreed” he would suffer a heart attack because, putatively, Floyd made his “I know I can’t breathe…” statement after, putatively, a “Speaker 9″ said “Bro, you about to have a heart attack….” Floyd did not express or necessarily imply that he agreed he would “have a heart attack.”

    Also, Chauvin’s and at least one other policeman’s criminal homicide liability was REINFORCED by Floyd’s stated impression, if any, and bystanders’ stated belief that a heart attack or some other dire event was likely. If, as you seem to argue, the cops were aware that Floyd harbored such fear (as they were, surely, aware that he suffered dyspnea) and, as the videos and the purported transcript indicates, the cops expressed awareness that Floyd’s condition was somehow compromised seriously, they had notice that their compression holds were contraindicated — that foreseeably the holds would kill Floyd.

    And that foreseeability was enhanced by Chauvin’s and at least on other cop’s applying compression restraints for a total of about 8 minutes & 40 seconds, despite Floyd said he could not breathe and presented symptoms of serious physical/physiological distress and even for three minutes or slightly more after Floyd fell unconscious. See
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D , especially, BUT NOT ONLY, at time 14:24 to the video’s end.
    See also my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra — which comment summarizes the opinion of Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. — which opinion presents a critical analysis of the autopsies, autopsy reports, and a video that shows all or near-all details of Floyd’s arrest an ensuing police conduct.

    [MORE]

    Back to the transcript’s language “Kueng: You got foam around your mouth, too?” — which I addressed in my first comment replying to your July 10, 2020 at 6:13 am GMT (comment # 24).

    A frothy whitish substance can form at the lips because of dryness after hard work or other physical stress or for other nonpathological causes, rather than because of a seizure or because of intake of fenantyl or some other opioid or amphetamine or methamphetamine or another stimulant drug, e.g., codeine, a non-amphetamine stimulant, like methylphenidate, benzphetamine, phentermine, cocaine, crack cocaine.

    * [Side-Note: Some sources have asserted that methylphenidate is a species of amphetamine. The assertion is false. https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/7/538/828902
    End Side-Note]
    Floyd was stressed for reason other than intake of drugs. Nothing indicates he had eaten of ingested liquids recently. The “foam” (if it WAS foam) might have resulted from influences other than drugs.

    The cops had called an ambulance for Floyd

    In perhaps the most famous or most viewed video, whild Chauvin was applying hid knee-press choke-hold, bystanders were urging the cops to call 911 for an ambulance of paramedic help, and the cops did not respond. The video allows that a bystander called 911, rather than the cops. I cannot conclude either way. But, again, I suspect the transcript bears manufactured evidence.

    Kueng: Stand up , stop falling down! Stand up Stay on your feet and face

    Again, evidence indicating that the cops murdered Floyd, because they had notice that Floyd could not withstand the neck-compression hold and dorsal thorax compression hold the cops applied.

    Floyd was already in the process of dying as the police arrested him, not because the police were arresting him.

    That prospect is the coup de grâce for the cops — since the signs of potentially fatal distress were clear and notified the cops that likely their compression restraints would kill Floyd.

    (1) Open John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/. Then read my comments — ALL my comments — posted there, especially, BUT NOT ONLY, these:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much because Floyd’s death was a foreseeable result of the compression-restrains the cops applied to Floyd.

    (2) See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127) and July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra).

    • Replies: @Tusk
  200. @Loup-Bouc

    You clearly betray you do not understand the term “differential tolerance”, very odd in someone claiming to be a MD. “Differential tolerance” does not mean developing a tolerance to the euphoric effect in chronic users and how greater or lesser this tolerance is in different addicts. “Differential tolerance” is a term used to describe a phenomenon that distinguishes fentanyl from heroin. With fentanyl chronic users, their tolerance for the euphoric effects leads to higher and higher doses needed to “get high”, same as heroin. However, this does not lead to a growing tolerance to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl. This means that a chronic user of fentanyl can take doses that would result in an overdose and death in a first time user but the chronic user would not lose consciousness, and might feel he had merely achieved a barely adequate “high”. However this same chronic user would not have developed a tolerance for the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl, so that a dose that gives that chronic user an adequate “high” can also have severe enough “respiratory suppression” effect to cause death in that same chronic user. Are you beginning to understand the point I am making? Can you see why I believe this might have critical bearing on determining what caused Saint Floyd’s death?

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  201. @Smith

    Just shut up already, keyboard hero!!!

    You don’t live in US, and you don’t even meet any single African-American or Muslim, so you don’t have any right to make any comment about the matter.

    Stop pretending you are Mr. ‘I’m know everything’.

    You are being racism to the people you don’t even meet yet. This is reason why I call/think you are mental illness.

    By the way, from your answer about what I am curious about you:

    You said you pretty young just mean you are around 20s – 30s years old, meanwhile the 2010 comment of the ‘Smith’:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/black-days-for-the-dalai-lama/#comment-860928

    Wow I am so stoked…my 4yrold son and I along w/ my mother want to see the show so bad…I am convinced that my little boy Dylan is BEP Biggest fan…some kids pretend to be firemen,Doctors and Police Officers…NOT my Boy HE pretends to be Apple, Will or Taboo and lucky me…he always makes me Fergie! turnstile

    Just mean you may lie about your email is fiction and this is also reason why I think you are using your parents email for the name “Smith”, and I think you are the ‘4 years old son’ from the quote above.

    I truly don’t think you are Vietnamese, I think you are:

    [MORE]

    1. An oversea Vietnamese, and a mental illness one. I am in fact know some oversea/immigrant Vietnamese who have bad experiences with African American (many tell me that African American is really racist to Asian in general) but non of them have the toxic racism attitude like you. So you must be a very rare mental illness Vietnamese.

    2. You are a Chinese agent troll who speak Vietnamese very well come here to discredit all Vietnamese opinion on China (Chinese imperialism) from the people like me and Linh Dinh, and to make them like a bunch of lunatics (I personally believe number 2 more than number 1 above).

    More proofs you are a keyboard here, troll and a mental illness by trying to above FB and The Scalpel who:

    1. FB is an engineer.

    2. The Scalpel is an US veterans and a doctor who work at Emergency Room.

    How you can guarantee on yourself that you are more knowledge than the people like FB and The Scalpel? You are a delusional.

    Please, this is just good for you, you don’t know then just you don’t know. It’s ok to be racism, just normal, but be racism for the right reason not for the (wrong) delusional reason (you don’t even meet Muslim but for some reason you hate them).

    Note for other commenters who read my comment:

    Just ignore “Smith”, he is a (Chinese) troll, mental illness, you guys just pretend he does not existed, don’t feed the troll, he does not even deserve to be angry.

  202. Rurik says:
    @Rurik

    https://www.unz.com/proberts/a-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-words/

    Not sure, but it seems possible that Mr. PCR is referring to the photo I recently posted.

    I’m a little curious, because I agree with just about every single thing Mr. Roberts has said over the years.

    All of it.

    And I agree with virtually ever salient point Mr. Roberts has carefully and correctly pointed out vis-a-vis the George Floyd mass ((media)) hysteria- dishonestly turning it into a racial issue. How it wasn’t the knee that killed him. And that the cop was just doing his job, and that Floyd was the one who wanted to lay down, and his system was full to the brim with deadly drugs, and he had a weak heart, and also was positive for the virus, and all of it.

    The only point I was making, was that for the cop to keep his knee on Floyd’s neck for as long as he did, didn’t help matters as far as the optics go. That’s all. That’s my only contention.

    I see Mr. Roberts comments are now turned off. If I offended PCR, in anyway whatsoever, then I humbly offer my sincere apologies. He is one of our most important truth-tellers we have in the Western world, and for myself, I feel it is a great honor and privileged to even be able to comment on his articles. I’d be mortified to think I discouraged him in any way with my notorious ranting and frothing.

  203. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    Later today, when I have enough time, I shall cite my comments that treat your dearest, irrelevant concern, albeit without using your pet terminology; and I will show you why your darling terminology is vain as a forensic pathology matter in Floyd’s case. Below I shall adumbrate the reasons that indicate the legal irrelevance of “differential tolerance.”

    [Because of its both forensic-pathology irrelevance and its legal irrelevance, my previous comments (posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article, infra) treat just briefly the forensic-patholgy-related constituents of the considerations labeled by the bullshit and miscast term “differential tolerance.”]

    Now I have time only for the following. [I lack time enough to proofread this comment. So, it may bear typing errors. If, later today, I proofread it and find a typing error that impairs the sense of any language, I shall correct that error.]

    “Differential tolerance” is legally irrelevant to Floyd’s case. [I am more than competent to determine that “differential tolerance” is legally irrelevant, for reasons shown above in this thread — in my comments of of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127), July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172), July 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm GMT (comment # 173), July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201), and July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (comment # 203) — AND shown in all of my below-listed comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s below-referenced Unz Review article.]

    Whatever may have been FLOYD’S tolerances (which are unknowable now and were unknowlable at the times of his two autopsies), Floyd was alive and not moribund, though presenting symptoms of marked physiological stress, when Officer Cauvin and at least one other policman began applying neck-compression and dorsal thorax compression restraint techniques to Floyd.

    You wrote:

    With fentanyl chronic users, their tolerance for the euphoric effects leads to higher and higher doses needed to “get high”, same as heroin. However, this does not lead to a growing tolerance to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl. This means that a chronic user of fentanyl can take doses that would result in an overdose and death in a first time user but the chronic user would not lose consciousness, and might feel he had merely achieved a barely adequate “high”.

    Your observation cannot alter the legal consequences of the conduct of Officer Chauvin and at least one other policeman. And your observation’s “science” and human-opiod-users’ “differential tolerance” “science” are highly questionable, for reasons I shall put in my promised comment of later today and which are apparent in several of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ .

    [MORE]

    * [Side note: You describe “differential tolerance” incorrectly. In the context of merely the opioid-drugs-aspect of Floyd’s case, an apt description is this question: in what conditions do different opioid drugs’ users (or biological systems) develop (or not develop) tolerance at different time-rates in different effect-degrees. And “differential tolerance” is NOT limited to “the ‘respiratory suppression’ effects of fentanyl.” It attempts to apply to other drugs, and drug interactions, and also to foods, nutritional chemistries, even to, e.g., the heavy metal tolerance of plants (vegetation). In the opioid arena, it applies to, e.g., opioid-induced hyperalgesia involving ANY opioid. YOU, sir or madam, are not a physician, biochemist, pysiologist, or any flavor of scientist.
    End Side-Note]

    Because of Floyd’s apparent condition, the cops’ compression-restraint techniques were patently contraindicated. Legally, their compression techniques would have been contraindicated even had Floyd not presented symptoms of serious stress. See the comments I reference below in this comment AND Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995), https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .

    Chauvin’s and at least one other cop applied their compression-restraint techiques for a total of about 8 minutes & 40 seconds, despite Floyd said he could not breathe and presented symptoms of marked physical/physiological/paychic distress. They applied those restraint-techniques even for 3+ minutes after Floyd fell unconscious.

    Chauvin and at least one other policemen continued applying compression restrains to Floyd’s neck and dorsal thorax for 3+ minutes while Floyd was unconscious. After that 3+ minutes period elapsed, Floyd was dead; and those cops’ compression-restraint techniques constituted the direct cause of Floyd’s death.
    See, and compare:
    (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D , especially, BUT NOT ONLY, at time 14:24 to the video’s end.
    (2) https://abcnews.go.com/US/independent-autopsy-george-floyd-findings-announced/story?id=70994827
    (3) https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/01/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-findings-released-monday/5307185002/
    (4) https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/01/independent-autopsy-finds-george-floyd-died-by-homicide-caused-by-asphyxia/#2602a5de7f8f
    (5) the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression” [top of p.1 of that Report], https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (6) the Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (7) Pertinent Unz Review comments of “The Scalpel,” a long-time Emergency Room physician: see The Scalpel’s comments cited and discussed in my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article, supra]
    (8) Opinion of Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399).]
    (9) Opinion of Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    (10) Opinion of Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    Also, under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra, see, e.g.,
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    That direct cause-of-death (the cops’ compression-restraint-techniques’ application) was also the legal proximate cause of Floyd’s death.
    COMPARE, e.g., R v Dear (1996) Criminal Law Reports 595 (England), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dear
    AND Brackett v. Peters, 11 F.3d 78 (7th Circuit 1993), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1014585782824481484&q=Brackett+v.+Peters,+11+F.3d+78+(7th+Circuit+1993)&hl=en&as_sdt=4,112,127
    AND Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008),
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=4,112,127
    AND, under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra, see, e.g., these of my comments:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)
    AND see, again, in THIS thread, my comments of of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127), July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172), July 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm GMT (comment # 173), July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201), and July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (comment # 203).

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  204. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I noticed that a little past midway of my comment of July 14, 2020 at 6:51 pm GMT (comment # 207), an error of omission occurs. The error is in this language:

    (8) Opinion of Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399).]

    I ought to have included at that language’s close this reference-key: “posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra.” So, the language ought to be:

    (8) Opinion of Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399) posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra.]

  205. map says:
    @FB

    So it obviously shows that even patients with much higher levels do not necessarily need breathing support…never mind the fact that if his breathing was noticeably impaired then why did they not respond like first responders, instead of snuffing him out…

    It’s not just fentanyl. Its meth and covid and god knows what else. It’s all street junk that’s mixed with other chemical in unstable combinations. It’s not medical-grade fentanyl in surgical-theater conditions.

    The fact remains that your main thesis of this being a homicide is not reported by the evidence at hand.

    The guy was suspected of passing a bad bill to a lousy corner store…big fucking deal…this is what we’ve all been victimized for…?…so some greaseball cop with borderline idiot IQ can get his jollies by riding on the neck of a nigger to prove he’s a big man…?

    How many people may have inadvertently been given a bad bill and then just as inadvertently passed it on…?

    And do we even know yet if that bill was even bad…?

    Again, you don’t understand the circumstances. The counterfeit bill was used to buy cigarettes. The shop owner offered to return the bill without incident if Floyd would return the cigarettes. Floyd refused, which is why the police were called to the scene. Floyd was a thief and a citizen was forced to avail himself of police services. Once again, a so-called “police brutality” involves another sketchy black causing problems in the public space that forces other people to deal with him by calling police. Then said black has an altercation because he does not want to be arrested, but he didn’t think about that before he decided to steal.

    But you just want to believe a black-hating cop just decided to off one today instead.

    The only people being victimized is the public, with these democrat-controlled riots.

    Do idiots like yourself know the meaning of SOCIAL COSTS…?

    Yes, there is a massive social cost to allowing black people to commit crimes.

    Do you have any idea of the amount of money that is paid out for cop misbehavior…in your own town or city…?

    No…?…well start thinking about it…because your community needs that money for things like schools and sidewalks and playgrounds and many other fucking things other than paying out millions to citizens that have been stepped on by cops gone wild…

    Yes yes, we should empty the prisons and get rid of the police and just let black people do whatever they want whenever they want. They can act up in the public square to their heart’s content and you will just have to either leave or put up with it.

    Did you protest this loudly when that Minneapolis Muslim cop executed a White woman from the passenger seat of his when his partner was talking to her from the window? What do you think the common denominator is in the behavior between Floyd and Mohammed?

  206. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Yes, despite your background of teaching rocket-law-surgery at Starfleet Academy, you still can’t explain how the this “homicide” that was committed by the cop is nowhere in the ME report that you acknowledge as being so expert.

    None.

    Even the press release documenting method of death as “homicide” indicates that this documentation does not imply culpability or intent.

    Instead, you cite a bunch of “eggshell skull” that apply to people engaging in bar fights and that have no bearing on qualified immunity cases involving police. Furthermore, the argument that you construct against Floyd in a court does not, for our purposes here, make your argument true.

    Tell me, were you this outraged when that Muslim cop murdered a White woman from the passenger seat of his car when his partner was talking to her through the driver’s-side window?

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  207. Loup-Bouc says:
    @map

    Your comment does not deserve a substantive response. You have not attempted to rebut my any of my arguments. Merely do you assert false dreck and irrelevant dross, including misrepresentations or misapprehensions of relevant evidence.

    You leave my arguments untouched.

    Taisez-vous, Monsieur Crétin-le-Menteur-qui-voit-avec-des-hallucinations (un titre ignoble)

    • Replies: @map
  208. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    This is all nonsense.

    I can’t verify anything you say about yourself or your experience. Anyone can claim that they are doctors or lawyers or college professors or were kidnapped and railroaded by police and that formative experience made them what they are today.

    I simply don’t believe you. It’s almost impossible for you to state simply what your argument is. Instead, you rely on an appeal to authority of your own credentials or links to other professionals who are unconnected to the case. The basic discussion of simply reading a couple of documents and knowing what is not stated directly is beyond your capability. Instead, you want to introduce irrelevancies to the case.

    Tell you what: give us your profound wisdom on the legalities of the Noor Mohammed case, the Minneapolis Somali cop who executed a White woman from the passenger seat of his car while she was describing a rape to his partner. Yep…he leaned over to clear his partner…and then shot her.

    He got 12.5 years. Was the jury too racist in his case, or not racist enough?

  209. Loup-Bouc says:

    This is the denouement of your narrative of your moronism and its progenies of grotesquerie, which henceforth I shall block from my perception.

    This is the Hour of Lead –
    Remembered, if outlived,
    As Freezing persons, recollect the Snow –
    First – Chill – then Stupor – then the letting go –

    Emily Dickinson

    [MORE]

    With quite enough of my comments, posted in this thread and under several Unz Review articles of sundry other authors, I have displayed my legal and medical expertise.

    you rely on an appeal to authority

    Such is a vital part of what lawyers and judge MUST do. But if your READ my comments referenced in my comment of July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (this thread, comment # 203), you will see a few of my reasoned applications of authority, if you do not descend again into negative hallucinatory experience. Or do you dwell always only in an hallucinatory nether world?

    Monsieur le Crétin, je ne vous répondrai plus. Vous avez disparu.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  210. @Loup-Bouc

    The phenomenon of “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl in chronic users of fentanyl is not “questionable science” as you falsely assert. The American Society of Anesthesiologists recognizes this phenomenon. You bizarrely chose to block quote part of my comment but leave out the most important part: That a chronic user will develop a tolerance to the euphoric effects of fentanyl such that a dose that will kill a first time user will produce a barely adequate high in a chronic user. However, that same chronic user will not have developed a tolerance for the “respiratory suppression” effect of fentanyl, so the same high dose that produces the barely adequate high will have fatal “respiratory suppression” effect in that chronic user. Why is it so difficult for you to understand this simple point? This phenomenon MUST be considered in the death of Saint Floyd, particularly as it can occur after the euphoric effects have expired. This means Saint Floyd could have a low level of fentanyl in his blood, because he took it hours ago and it has worn off, and still die of the “respiratory suppression” effect. Recognition of this could be critical to Officer Chauvin’s defense. Ignoring it means Chauvin does not get the most vigorous defense possible.

  211. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Look, I already refuted your point. You simply decided to dismiss the refutation.

  212. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I understood your post. But you do not understand that differential tolerance investigation is useless (or bogus) in forensic pathology, hence in a case like Floyd’s. And that is why I said that differential tolerance’s putative respiratory suppression fentanyl effect investigation is questionable science. Even respecting cases of living humans, the literature bears doubt concerning whether such effects are trackable, validly, reliably.

    The American Society of Anesthesiologists recognizes this phenomenon

    Right, and during the reign of China’s first Emperor, Chinese astronomers recognized that the Earth is a globe and revolves around the Sun (another globe, of sorts). So what? The Chinese did not have moon-rockets then. And here and now, the matter is whether differential tolerance investigation can determine anything valid and reliable when the subject is DEAD.

    [MORE]

    You are becoming very tiresome — much because you seem to suffer hallucinations that what-I- said I did not say and that what-I-did-not-say I did say. Also, consistently, your posts imply, strongly if not necessarily, that you do not, or refuse to, comprehend the reasons why your whole differential tolerance song-and-dance is utterly irrelevant to Floyd’s case — utterly irrelevant because of the applicable law and because of the impssibility of using differential tolerance investigation to find ANYTHING valid and reliable in pathology investigation of the direct cause (or even contributing indirect causal influences) of a deceased death.

    A deceased’s case is immutably cold, so that past possible tolerances are not, then, validly/reliably discoverable. And Floyd’s medical history bore NOTHING that could support (legitimately) any inference concerning possible in vivo “differential tolerance” in his case.

    Because, before I can assemble a presentation of my comments that address your (irrelevant) differential tolerance mantra and explain their treatment of that mantra, you keep slinging, ptretentiously, drools of dreck to which I feel, yet, constrained to consider and repond , I cannot accomplish that feat today, per force of the press of my professional obligations. So, I shall move that matter to tomorrow, or perhaps I shall just dismiss you — your manifest thick-headed annoyance.

    Peut-être à demain, Monsieur Tête-épaisse.

    • LOL: Bombercommand
  213. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    My linked comment was my dismissal of map. The comment’s immediate object was map’s comment of July 14, 2020 at 10:31 pm GMT (comment # 213). For cause I cannot divine, my comment was not identified as a reply responding to map’s comment of July 14, 2020 at 10:31 pm GMT (commend # 213).

    • Replies: @map
  214. NoNwoNow says:
    @Tusk

    Kueng: You got foam around your mouth , too ?
    George Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier .

    Yes, he sure was. https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments#comment-3979154

    Symptoms of fentanyl overdose displayed by Floyd included foaming at the mouth, difficulty walking (he had to be supported by two officers), confusion, respiratory depression, and respiratory arrest.

  215. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    By your reasoning, you think Chauvin needs to get an even harsher punishment than Noor Mohammed. Do you understand that Noor Muhammed literally executed someone?

    He got 12.5 years.

    This is your reasoning:

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much because Floyd’s death was a foreseeable result of the compression-restrains the cops applied to Floyd.

    There is nothing in the ME’s report to draw that conclusion. Absolutely nothing.

    The report even goes out to say that Floyd suffered no life-threatening injuries.

    How can the compression restraints lead to his death when such compression restraints are not even cited as life-threatening?

    This is the problem with your wall-of-text, search-for-my-comments-elsewhere style of gas lighting. It’s not believable.

  216. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I cannot afford to spend the time needed to proofread this reply. If, later, I proofread it and find typing errors that impair meaning, I shall cure such errors in a later post.

    In my comment of July 14, 2020 at 6:51 pm GMT (comment # 207), I observed:

    You describe “differential tolerance” incorrectly. In the context of merely the opioid-drugs-aspect of Floyd’s case, an apt description is this question: in what conditions do different opioid drugs’ users (or biological systems) develop (or not develop) tolerance at different time-rates in different effect-degrees? And “differential tolerance” is NOT limited to “the ‘respiratory suppression’ effects of fentanyl.” It attempts to apply to other drugs, and drug interactions, and also to foods, nutritional chemistries, even to, e.g., the heavy metal tolerance of plants (vegetation). In the opioid arena, it applies to, e.g., opioid-induced hyperalgesia involving ANY opioid. YOU, sir or madam, are not a physician, biochemist, pysiologist, or any flavor of scientist.

    Yet, you have continued (a) to insist that “differential tolerance” bears special meaning for fentanyl-use and (b) to insist that the matter is not questionable, that even in postmortem cases, “differential tolerance is detectable at time of autopsy (after the subject has died), and fentanyl “differential tolerance” is not indeterminate in vivo .

    [MORE]

    So, respecting the FACT that “differential tolerance” is NOT limited to “the ‘respiratory suppression’ effects of fentanyl,” here are:
    (i) LEGITIMATE sources that observe differential tolerance in vegetables:
    https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1985.tb02837.x
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00007944
    https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1469-8137.2003.00746.x
    [The last source’s title includes these terms “Differential heavy metal tolerance.” Do tho try to argue that the source’s topic is not “differential tolerance” because the terms “differential” and “tolerance” are separated by the terms “heavy metal.” The matter is the CONTENT of the source’s study, results, and discussion — not its interspersing two terms between the two atoms of your mantric buzzword.]
    (ii) LEGITIMATE sources that observes differential tolerance occurring vis-a-vis contents of diet (cases in which individuals develop differential tolerance of a certain food or food-type or lack of such food or food-type):
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36534-6
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0098847214002731
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00428324

    (iii) LEGITIMATE sources that treat differential tolerance vis-a-vis drugs other than fentanyl:
    https://www.ijpp.com/IJPP%20archives/2001_45_1/111-115.pdf
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091305780904232

    In my comment of July 15, 2020 at 1:29 am GMT (comment # 217), I observed:

    …[C]onsistently, your posts imply, strongly if not necessarily, that you do not, or refuse to, comprehend the reasons why your whole differential tolerance song-and-dance is utterly irrelevant to Floyd’s case — utterly irrelevant because of the applicable law and because of the impossibility of using differential tolerance investigation to find ANYTHING valid and reliable in pathology investigation of the direct cause (or even contributing indirect causal influences) of a deceased death.

    A deceased’s case is immutably cold, so that past possible tolerances are not, then, validly/reliably discoverable. And Floyd’s medical history bore NOTHING that could support (legitimately) any inference concerning possible in vivo “differential tolerance” in his case.

    Here are two forms of proof “of the impossibility of using differential tolerance investigation to find ANYTHING valid and reliable in pathology investigation of the direct cause (or even contributing indirect causal influences) of a deceased death,” since a “deceased’s case is immutably cold, so that past possible tolerances are not, then, validly/reliably discoverable.

    (1) Direct proof

    In “A critical review of the causes of death among post-mortem toxicological investigations: analysis of 34 buprenorphine-associated and 35 methadone-associated deaths” at p.985, in colomn 2, this appears:

    Tolerance to opioids and/or benzodiazepines would be expected to play a significant role in both their individual and combined toxicities. Tolerance has been reported with methadone as well as buprenorphine. In vivo behavioural studies showed that higher efficacy μ agonists appear more resistant to tolerance than do lower efficacy agonists. Treatment with escalating doses of morphine or buprenorphine produced greater tolerance to the lower efficacy buprenorphine than to the higher efficacy agonist, morphine . Furthermore, repeated morphine treatment results in less cross-tolerance to higher efficacy agonist methadone than to morphine…[endnote signal omitted]. Unfortunately, in our forensic study, because the ante-mortem histories of drug use of the subjects were often unobtainable , we cannot comment on the role that tolerance, or lack thereof, may have played in these deaths .

    [Emphasis added and endnote signal omitted by me, Loup-Bouc.]

    The preceding quote indicates, clearly, that differential tolerance (or any tolerance) is not determinable postmortem — unless on premise of in vivo records that, somehow, show at least a significant likelihood of tolerance (differential or not). But such in vivo records are if not always, near-always, either invalid or unreliable (or both) — as will appear shortly below (under the heading “ Indirect Proof ”).

    For Floyd’s case, the inescapable and conclusively significant forensic-medicine implication is that no differential tolerance determination was possible in Floyd’s case — (1) because an autopsy cannot produce any indication of drug tolerance/intolerance (differential or non-differential) and (2) because Floyd’s recorded history, medical, criminal, or other history, bears hopelessly insufficient basis of determining whether Floyd had become tolerant (differentially or non-differentially) to fentanyl (or any of the other potentially toxic or potentially lethal drugs found in Floyd’s blood or urine postmortem.

    * [ Side-Note: Explanations of some terminology of the immediately preceding quote:
    (i)An “agonist” is a substance that binds with a receptor and induces the receptor to cause a physiological or biochemical response. Fentanyl is an agonist, as are morphine, buprenorphine, Tramadol, Nalbuphine, cannibanoids, and amphetamines (cannibanoids and amphetamines can be also antagonists, see, e.g., https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/amphetamines AND https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882293/).
    (ii) Agonists are of four types: μ , Δ, κ , and ORL-1. Fentanyl and morphine are μ agonists. Buprenorphine can be either a Δ agonist or a κ agonist.
    (A) μ agonists induce receptors to produce
    Analgesia
    Depression
    Euphoria
    Physical dependence
    Respiratory
    Sedation
    (B) Δ agonists induce receptors to produce
    Analgesia
    Inhibit dopamine release
    Modulation of μ receptor
    (C) κ agonists induce receptors to produce
    Analgesia
    Diuresis
    Dysphoria
    (iii) A single substance can be of more than one type, e.g., μ , Δ, and κ . If a substance can be both agonist or antagonist, its effects can be markedly varied. Example: Buprenorphine — μ partial agonist, κ antagonist, Δ weak antagonist.
    End Side-Note:]

    (2) Indirect Proof

    I have never found a valid, reliable in vivo (antemortem) human-subject study “different tolerance” or, more important, tolerance occurrences/variances that buzzword tries to connote. Near-certainly, the reasons are:

    (a) No study could force humans to submit to trials that would be seriously life-threatening. (To test validly and reliably the differentia tolerance otention of, say, fentanyl, one would need to submit subject to potentially fatal or perhaps chronically debilitating doses of the drug; and such would beg criminal penalty. Just so,

    (b) No study could establish a randomly-selected, sufficient-size sample. Such study would be consigned to using tests or test-records of individuals who happened to appear in emergency rooms, hospitals, or clinics because of some ill-health condition that induced a physician to run tests that either showed use of agonist or antagonist drugs or suggested presence of such substances. So, randomness is impossible; and near-certainly a study could not assemble an adequate study sample within a properly limited time-span.

    (c) Even if a an adequate-size, random sample could be assembled lawfully, still the study would encounter the insurmountable problem that the subjects’ diets and various and varying sundry lawful prescription drug use and use of legal diet-supplements or legal, even prescribed medicinal herbs would complicate the study beyond the sutdy’ ability of accounting for and such variables and rendering them insignificant. [COMPARE, e.g.,, under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra , my comments of
    *July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714), as corrected by my comment of July 8, 2020 at 7:53 am GMT (comment # 716)
    *July 10, 2020 at 9:24 pm GMT (comment # 732)

    Just so, the in vivo (antemortem) studies are run with non-human animals, or studies are run in vitro, NOT in vivoe.g.,, these:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/1301308
    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/84679134.pdf
    https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/183276843/Final_Copy_2019_01_23_Hill_R_PhD.pdf

    ======

    The foregoing considerations show that your “differential tolerance” manta cannot function in a legitimate forensic pathology examination of Floyd’s case.

    More important: in numerous comments, I showed, irrefutably, as a clear matter of clear law, that even if “differential tolerance” analysis could obtain in Floyd’s case (though, for reasons put above, it could not), still Officer Chauvin and at least one other arresting policeman murdered Floyd.

    Under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra, see, e.g.,:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much because Floyd’s death was a foreseeable result of the compression-restrains the cops applied to Floyd.

    (2) See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127) and July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) and July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201) and July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (comment # 203) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra).

    =======

    Above I referenced two of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” supra . Those comments are two of those pertinent here. Others (posted under John-Paul Leonard’s same article) include my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399) and the there-referenced comments of “The Scalpel (a long-time Emergency Room physician).

    Though you asserted that you read all my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s same article, I believe that your read spare few, surely nowhere near all those comments, because of the contents of your comments that reply to mine. So, I shall not reference, here, more of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s same article. Rather I challenge you to read all of them. A premiminary test is whether you can cite my comment that bears this language — “associativity: A  (B  C) = (A  B)  C” — or this language — “Your comment…renders…cause of suspecting that the counterfeit-bill-passing does not explain Floyd’s arrest — that, rather, the arrest was “inspired” by “information”…cops received from the individual sitting in a car parked illegally behind the car in which Floyd was…reclining” [ellipses added by me, here, purposely, to preclude your finding the comment with an electronif search-device] — or this:

    I sat with the plaintiff’s attorney during…deposition of the defendant. I advised plaintiff’s attorney…how to get the defendant to admit
    (a) …he screwed the plaintiff’s wife several times
    (b) …he had herpes simplex II (genital)
    (c) …his herpes eruption episodes occurred in pairs
    (d) …every paired-attack first attack’s termination was separated from the related second attack’s commencement by about five days, that his individual attacks lasted two to three weeks…
    (e) on one occasion of his screwing the plaintiff’s wife, one paired-attack’s first attack had ended 11 or 12 days earlier.

    Again, I added ellipses.

    I shall not reply to your comments again.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  217. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I noticed that a mathematical symbol did not appear correctly. The trouble was this website’s not recognizing myu (Word Perfect) text’s presentation of the math symbols, likely because of electronic Incompatibility. I shall try to make it appear as it ought.

    [MORE]

    The glitch occurred in this language:

    “associativity: A  (B  C) = (A  B)  C”

    The “” things are errors.

    The language ought to be this:

    “associativity: A ∨ (B ∨ C) = (A∨ B) ∨ C”

    I hope the corrected text appears as it ought.

  218. @Loup-Bouc

    It is only the “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effect of fentanyl that is important to determining what really killed Saint Floyd. You keep harping on tolerance buildup to the euphoric effect, that is irrelevant to my argument. My argument is a legal one. St Floyd was a fentanyl addict and was on fentanyl when detained, and complained “I can’t breathe” BEFORE any police restraint was applied. With fentanyl, this “respiratory suppression” effect can occur after, even hours after, the euphoric effect has expired. Therefore the “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effect of fentanyl MUST be considered as a possible cause of death of Saint Floyd. Otherwise Officer Chauvin does not receive the most vigorous defence possible. You claim to have graduated Law School and be an MD, it is beyond me why you cannot understand or be interested in my argument.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  219. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    Now another glitch:

    [MORE]

    “associativity: A ∨ (B ∨ C) = (A∨ B) ∨ C”

    the = ought to be ≡
    so:

    “associativity: A ∨ (B ∨ C) ≡ (A∨ B) ∨ C”

    Very frustrating.

  220. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I promised myself that I would not reply again to your comments. But I cannot withhold reply to your latest — and most astounding — piece of absolute bullshit.

    You can say “It is only the ‘differential tolerance’ to the ‘respiratory suppression’ effect of fentanyl that is important to determining what really killed Saint Floyd” or “It is only the ‘differential tolerance’ to the ‘defecation-suppression’ effect of fentanyl that is important to determining what really killed Saint Floyd” or “It is only the ‘differential tolerance’ to the ‘hallucinatory hallucination of infrahallucatory prohallucination imbecility’ effect of ‘differential tolerance’ to ‘non-differential tolerance’ to ‘antidifferential tolerance’ or ‘up-your-wazoo-differential-tolerance’ effect of non-effect-sensation-of-your-lunacy.”

    Whatever tolerance dreck you savor or feel perseverationally compelled to issue-forth, you are accomplishing nothing but demonstrating your abysmal but dangerous stupidity.

    I have shown:

    (A) No method can determine any antemortem drug tolerance or intolerance of any kind or effect when the subject is already DEAD. You have not presented, and no one can present, ANY scientific/statistical showing to the contrary.

    (B) No method can establish any statistically valid, reliable, or significant sample or population tolerance or tolerance-effect of live humans (for reason I presented with sufficient study and statistical-and-hypothesis-testing-method-science support). You have not presented, and no one can present, ANY scientific/statistical showing to the contrary.

    (c) Even if some method could render possible the impossible — could determine the antemortem a differential tolerance [even ‘respiratory suppression’ effect of a differential tolerance] of a CORPSE — the determination would be ABSOLUTELY LEGALLY IRRELEVANT to Floyd’s case, for the reasons I presented in my last reply and in several other comments in this thread AND under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/

    AS A CLEAR MATTER OF LAW, Chauvin and at least one other cop MURDERED Floyd.

    You have not presented, and no one can present, ANY legal — any ACTUALLY LEGAL — argument to the contrary.

    Now I promise myself absolutely that I will not respond again to your toxic verbal detritus.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  221. @Loup-Bouc

    I never claimed that the “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effect of fentanyl in chronic users can be calculated on a corpse, nor does it need to be. The American Society of Anathesiologists recognizes and teaches this phenomenon. If I wrote that “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effect is the only important thing to consider in determining what killed Saint Floyd, I was engaging in hyperbole, so it might appear I misspoke myself. This was neccesary because you have insisted that the neck restraint killed him and that was murder, so your assertion must be countered with an equally strong assertion. The Defense, at trial, must put doubt in the mind of the jurors. There is considerable doubt the neck restraint killed Saint Floyd, but in the absence of other possible causes of death, jurors might conclude it was due to the neck restraint, that is only natural. If another, plausible, scientifically recognized cause of death is introduced in evidence, this might tip the scales. The fact is, death of a chronic fentanyl user can be caused by the “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl, this fact is undeniable. It is a fact that Saint Floyd was complaining “I can’t breathe” BEFORE ANY NECK RESTRAINT WAS APPLIED. This is a fact, it cannot be denied. The two facts together suggest Saint Floyd may have been experiencing the onset of FATAL “respiratory suppression”. Together, this might introduce sufficient doubt in the minds of jurors to result in acquittal, particularly paired with the fact that Officer Chauvin was in this situation while in the line of duty, where there is a higher standard required to prove a case of murder, or any lesser charge, such as manslaughter.

  222. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    Since your most recent comment bears at least a spare semblance of semi-honest, rational, semi-intelligent thought, I respond once more.

    The fact is, death of a chronic fentanyl user can be caused by the “differential tolerance” to the “respiratory suppression” effects of fentanyl, this fact is undeniable.

    That assertion states a LIKELY true general proposition (though actually the matter is fentanyl INTOLERANCE that associates, perhaps causally, with “respiratory suppression”) . But that proposition is not provable in any actual postmortem investigation not supported by immense totally valid, reliable, and very particularly relevant documented medical history of the individual deceased. Such documentation was absent in Floyd’s case; and surely it is present in a very, very minute population of cases.

    It is a fact that Saint Floyd was complaining “I can’t breathe” BEFORE ANY NECK RESTRAINT WAS APPLIED. This is a fact, it cannot be denied. The two facts together suggest Saint Floyd may have been experiencing the onset of FATAL “respiratory suppression”.

    Only ONE fact is involved: Floyd complained of some UNSPECIFIED degree of dyspnea.

    [MORE]

    The other “fact” — “differential tolerance” (etc.) is NOT a case-specific fact in Floyd’s case; and, at least as you put it, your general proposition has not been shown CERTAINLY true or certainly true generally enough to be considered a medical/empirical FACT, or a medical fact a court would deem sufficiently “generally accepted.” Cf., and compare, Federal Rules of Evidence Rule 401, Rule 403, Rule 702 (and the Advisory Committee Notes on the Rules of Evidence—2000 Amendment), Rule 703, and Rule 803(18). https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre

    [All U.S. states have either adopted the federal rules of evidence or have enacted evidence rules that are markedly similar, especially vis-a-vis the here-involved issue.]

    Together, this might introduce sufficient doubt in the minds of jurors…where there is a higher standard required to prove a case of murder, or any lesser charge, such as manslaughter.

    Your assertion’s “doubt in the minds of jurors” consideration is possible in EVERY criminal case tried by a jury — at least because of the always-possibility of jury nullification [a matter I addressed in my comment of July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201)]. But:

    (a) Since that possibility is universal POSSIBILITY, it is meaningless in any particular EVIDENCED case.

    (b) The core consideration — (reasonable) “doubt” — is absolutely irrelevant to the PURELY LEGAL QUESTION of whether, as a matter of law,” the cops murdered Floyd.

    Your assertion’s “higher standard required” consideration is likewise meaningless because of its universality. Also:

    (a) In Floyd’s case, “as a matter of law,” ONLY the cops’ compression-restraints could be (and were, actually) the proximate cause of Floyd’s death (In Floyd-case proximate-cause determination necessarily includes: (1) clearly necessary applicability of the eggshell skull rule and (2) the cops’ clear exacerbation of foreseeability of Floyd’s death).

    (b) The controlling, undisputed ultimate facts are treated and their significancies explained in my below-listed comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/, see, e.g.:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much, BUT NOT ONLY, because Floyd’s death was a specially foreseeable result of the compression-restraints the cops applied to Floyd.

    (2) See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127) and July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) and July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201) and July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (comment # 203) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my above-cited comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra ).

    Quite clearly, you do not understand the pertinent legal rules or know and appreciate the pertinent judicial precedents or how, properly, the law must treat the pertinent forensic medical evidence. READ MY ABOVE-CITED COMMENTS.

    • Replies: @Tusk
  223. Tusk says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    I’m not sure what you’re arguing, because while we don’t have the footage we have the transcript. So sure, you can say the footage is different from the transcript, but the transcript simply states exactly what I described. Your belief that the footage online = truth, but not the transcript, just highlights a presumption of bias.

    In the second case, you have no argument because the medical examiner ruled there was no damage done to Floyd’s neck that caused any breathing injuries. One again, Floyd was unable to breathe and likely having a heart attack before the officer who used a legal knee restraint upon him, so your causation is backwards to imply it was this guy arrived after the fact caused the conditions that killed Floyd. Perhaps you can argue he aggravated them, or he was negligent, but that doesn’t change two important facts:

    1. Floyd chose the consume the drugs that killed him.
    2. He choose to commit the crime that led to his arrest.

    You, like many other sycophants, erase any agency Floyd has and place the blame solely on others. Floyd did many things wrong that led to his death and that’s where the blame should be placed.

    You also err when you share this link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/01/independent-autopsy-finds-george-floyd-died-by-homicide-caused-by-asphyxia/#2602a5de7f8f

    Considering that this is not an official autopsy, of which even PCR mentions in his post that nobody seems to have a copy of, paid for by the family it is an extremely untrustworthy source.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  224. Tusk says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much, BUT NOT ONLY, because Floyd’s death was a specially foreseeable result of the compression-restraints the cops applied to Floyd.

    Floyd died because of the legally approved non-lethal restraints used on him? You should get someone to apply the neck restraint to yourself since it’s easy to look it up online. You’ll find it is very easy to breathe, unless of course, perhaps you were in the middle of a drug induced heart attack…

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  225. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Tusk

    You should get someone to apply the neck restraint to yourself since it’s easy to look it up online.

    I am personally, physically familiar with the physiologic effects of neck-restraints. See my comment of June 10, 2020 at 9:48 pm GMT (comment # 470) posted under Fred Reed’s 7 June 2020 Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments#comments.

    You’ll find it is very easy to breathe, unless of course, perhaps you were in the middle of a drug induced heart attack.

    Allow ME to apply to YOU the kind of neck-restraint Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd. After about 3 minutes, you will feel your life threatened; and it WILL BE THREATENED.

    All the evidence, including all the Floyd-case expert opinion, makes utterly clear that “heart attack” was NOT involved. Ultimately Floyd suffered cardiac arrest; but (you medically ignorant, moronic fool) cardiac arrest is NOT a heart attack, and a heart attack is NOT a cardiac arrest.

    And even if (contrary to ALL the available, LEGALLY ADMISSIBLE evidence, including all the expert opinion) Floyd was in danger of suffering a heart attack, THAT (you law-ignorant and abysmally stupid fool) would be PART OF THE REASON why the LAW WOULD HOLD that Officer Chauvin and at least one other cop MURDERED Floyd.

    In Floyd’s case, “as a matter of law,” ONLY the cops’ compression-restraints could be (and were, actually) the proximate cause of Floyd’s death. [In Floyd-case proximate-cause determination necessarily includes: (1) clearly necessary applicability of the eggshell skull rule and (2) the cops’ clear exacerbation of foreseeability of Floyd’s death).]

    [MORE]

    (b) The controlling, undisputed ultimate facts are treated and their significancies explained in my below-listed comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/, see, e.g.:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    Those comments prove that the murder charges ought to lead to conviction, much, BUT NOT ONLY, because Floyd’s death was a specially foreseeable result of the compression-restraints the cops applied to Floyd.

    (2) See also, in THIS thread, my comments of July 11, 2020 at 12:23 am GMT (comment # 127) and July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) and July 14, 2020 at 3:40 am GMT (comment # 201) and July 14, 2020 at 10:33 am GMT (comment # 203) — but be informed that those comments (posted in THIS thread) beg supplementation by my above-cited comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?” (supra).

    • Replies: @Tusk
  226. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Tusk

    See my comment of July 17, 2020 at 3:28 am GMT (comment # 230), which replies to your comment of July 17, 2020 at 2:23 am GMT (comment # 239) and which demolishes all the premises and assertions of your comment of July 17, 2020 at 2:15 am GMT comment # 238), the assertions and premises of which do not supplement, or differ essentially from, the grossly ignorant, stupid assertions and premises of your comment of July 17, 2020 at 2:23 am GMT (comment # 239).

  227. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Tusk

    CORRECTION of comment-reference numbers of my comment of July 17, 2020 at 4:31 am GMT (comment # 231). The comment-references citing comment # 238 and comment # 239 ought to cite comment # 228 and comment #229.

  228. roonaldo says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Glad I made your list of deplorables–we who fall short of your elevated Infallibility Quotient.

    I went to comments in the John Paul Leonard article, as you suggest we all do, looking for reasoned discussion, and found you stating in #586, “Perhaps Leonard’s false assertions derive from delusions that pursue defense of weak ego–delusions that are psychotic-impulse-engendered and occur beyond control of Leonard’s conscious mind…” Now, some bombast is usual in comments but don’t physicians have ethics standards regarding statements like this? You state that it is “absolutely an impossibility” Floyd’s death was fentanyl-related.

    It would seem, from your assertions, that you would take issue with RT, the anasthesiologist/surgeon, but you avoided engaging with him, and went on to to decry Paul Craig Roberts’”psychotic fantasies.”

    I don’t know if you are what you purport to be, but your moniker, Loup-Bouc, he-wolf billy-goat, is fitting. Loup also means mask, or a type of half-mask in French. Rutting billy goats, per motherearthnews.com, 11/16/2013, “…pee all over themselves. They pee on their beards, in their mouths, on top of their heads, down their front legs, in their water bucket…it’s just nasty, it’s caustic…”

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  229. Loup-Bouc says:
    @roonaldo

    But where is your relevant, valid, legal/forensic-medicine argument and its evidentiary support?

    I am not “nice.” I despise”nice, even contemn “nice.” “Nice” is fraudulent. See my comment of June 28, 2020 at 3:03 am GMT (comment # 535) poste under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/

    Also, in 1962 through 1964, I had, and loved dearly, a pet Toggenburg male goat, whom (when he was an infant) I rescued from a Philadelphia “Little Italy” abattoir shortly before Easter Sunday of 1962. I named him Hennessy, because I used my weekly Hennessy cognac money (and an additional amount) to purchase him from certain death. He was bleating, horrified, in a cage shared by his mother, who was slaughtered, because I had not enough money to purchase her, too.

    Hennessy never peed on himself. But surely he would pee on YOU.

    • Replies: @roonaldo
  230. Smith says:
    @Biff

    I’m not sure I understand your post? Where did I imply Floyd was special?

    I’m pointing out the fact leftists are using his death to riot, nothing more, and this has consequences worldwide.

    Asia has no need for this nigger lives matter shit.

  231. roonaldo says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Relax, the Mother Earth News billy goat in rut was a metaphor for your online behaviour, and your pet goat is, as you would say, irrelevant. The metaphor applies to many posters, including myself, but most of us have smaller bladders. And, hey, I like goats too, I used to bring them their meals when I worked the county fair.

    You say you hate and condemn nice. What don’t you hate? Your vituperative, absolutist demeanor seems way out of whack for an aged, distinguished professor of law and physician, and makes me wonder if your petulant online persona is but a construct by a team of keyboard operatives, who try to humanize the construct with stories of poor vision and goats. Perhaps the William H. Bates, M.D. method for improving vision could bring you some relief, if you are real.

    Besides, we have a larger enemy in the destructive oligarchic structure poisoning our society. An interesting read is Dr. Stuart Jean Bramhall at stuartbramhall.wordpress.com titled “Emerging Evidence Suggests Nightclub Where Floyd and Chavin Worked Linked to Intelligence and Moneylaundering.” Shades of Jack Ruby.

    Recall the DNC/Clinton gang running of the Kavanaugh madcap caper starring utter fraud Christine Blasey Ford and supporting cast of hysterical, lying womenfolk.

    In the latest caper, the nightclub is the nexus for gathering the players. Floyd, with his expensive drug habits, trafficking counterfeit bills, who could have charges piled on him worse than the physical piling on he received from the cops. Chauvin the chameleon. Move the players in a compartmentalized operation, each with their assigned tasks and handlers. DNC hack Ellison installed as Attorney General. Away we go.

    • Replies: @map
    , @Loup-Bouc
  232. map says:
    @Bombercommand

    Why are you people wasting your time arguing with Loup-Bouc? This guys is obviously a troll who doesn’t know what he is talking about. This idiot is arguing what “the law” is going to find when the same “law” gave a somali Minneapolis cop 12.5 years for executing a white woman from the passenger seat of his car. The guy will be out of prison in 4 years for good behavior.

    Get a clue: this “eggshell skull” nonsense doesn’t apply to cops. It applies to dummies getting into bar fights. This is why police have qualified immunity: their job is to interfere in people’s lives and properly and lawfully execute arrests, even if the person is resisting. A death in police custody is not, in any way, an obvious proximate cause of death for the person.

    Stop responding to this moron. All he is doing is chasing you down rabbit holes by referencing his previous wall-of-text comments. Hey, stupid, we’ve read your comments. We disagree with them. We don’t need to keep going back to re-read the sh*t you posted.

  233. map says:
    @roonaldo

    The solution to this medical/lawyer/professor problem is the same as any solution.

    1) You allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy.
    2) You cram the cost of the bankruptcy down the throat of the universities. The loans are paid through seizing the property, pensions and endowments of universities.
    3) You make it illegal for a company to require a college degree for a job that does not need one. The burden of proof is on the employer.

    Watch universities dry up and blow away.

  234. McDuff says:

    We now live in a time where “LOGIC IS AN ENEMY AND TRUTH IS A MENACE”

  235. Loup-Bouc says:
    @roonaldo

    Sad. Your language suggests you possess more than a modicum of intelligence, sound education (perhaps even a tad of classical education), and a smidgin of good taste. Still, erratically, your central neural apparatus flicks on-and-off your psyche’s derangement-switch.

    your pet goat is, as you would say, irrelevant

    Your derangement-switch flipped your apprehension to desired-blindness mode. My pet goat’s bestial innocence would have triggered his pissing on your racism to neutralize its acidic effect.

    Your vituperative…demeanor seems way out of whack for an aged, distinguished professor of law and physician

    I treat gracefully those whose conduct deserves respect, but contemn, manifestly, humans who display emotional plague, especially those who dissemble with pretense of sophistication.

    [MORE]

    Your…absolutist demeanor

    Logic does not admit of shades of grey. A matter is relevant or it is not. Nothing can be more or less relevant — though irrelevance is capable infinite degree-variability, short of relevance.

    If a legal rule bears an absolute limit, it resists exception (or, fudging according to your bias). Some (albeit few) scientific facts are immutable (at least for some time).

    Evil bullshit is evil bullshit and deserves being treated contemptuously.

    One here-relevant example is the fact that, alone, forensic pathology cannot determine whether a corpse may have suffered “respiratory suppression” caused by “differential fentanyl tolerance” — the mantra Bombercommand intones (dissonantly) to his demigods for hope they will interpolate it (his mantra) into Floyd’s case.

    Another relevant example is your Floyd-case propaganda — engendered by a chemical convergence of racist bias and legal/medical ignorance.

    Your…demeanor seems way out of whack for an aged, distinguished professor of law and physician

    In 1967-1969 and 1979-1981, I received the therapy of an orgonomic psychiatrist (who enabled me to become a beast). He (that psychiatrist) treated a full slate of patients, and played tennis, nearly every work-week day, until he reached his 99th year. (He died at 101, two years ago.)

    Near surely, I, at 80 years, can outrun you and climb a 4,000 ft mountain before you reach half its height. And if you dared attack me (unless with a firearm aimed more than a foot away), I, a shodan aikidoka would toss your presumptuous self into the air and splat against a wall.

    And I, at 80 years, still (a) cure patients allopaths, naturopaths, and homeopaths leave for dead and (b) win post-conviction-relief cases though, since 1996, the mean annual success-rate range ≈ 0.02% to 0.3%.

    Besides, we have a larger enemy in the destructive oligarchic structure poisoning our society.

    THERE, you talk SENSE.

    I regret, intensely, that the current mini-revolution’s masses are too stupid to appreciate that they might have accomplished some good had they directed their ire at the oligarchs and their minions, whose evil conduct does not derive from or depend on ethnicity (or pre-Cold-War-era history or some grandiose, inartistic statues or…….), but at people and institutions that manifest psychopathic greed (wealth-greed, power-greed, fame-greed…….).

    Black lives — good Blacks’ lives — do matter — as do the lives of all the relatively few good humans of any ethnicity. Only human beasts are good — innocent beasts, like my Hennessy goat-son and my sweet, loving, loyal dog-daughter, Calli.

    A truly good man does not apprehend his goodness, and SO is good.
    A foolish man tries to be good, and SO is NOT good.
    ***
    When goodness is lost, kindness begins.
    When kindness is lost, justice begins.
    When justice is lost, ritual begins.
    Ritual is the husk of faith & loyalty, the beginning of confusion.

    Lines 1-2 & 9-12 of TAO TE CHING, Chapter 38 [my translation]

    THAT is why I contemn “nice.”

    But, though still markedly troublous, racism is not the core evil. Psychopathic greed is. (See above.)

    And if Wall Street, the military industrial complex, neoliberal and neocon politicians, the two main political parties, the Deep State, the Zionist lobby, religion, and the Mainstream Media were demolished, racism’s significant consequences would wither to relatively minor, mostly-avoidable nuisance, largely issuing from mere stupidity. [The nuisance will never vanish, because >99% of humans are at best neurotic.]

    Recall the DNC/Clinton gang running of the Kavanaugh madcap caper starring utter fraud Christine Blasey Ford and supporting cast of hysterical, lying womenfolk.

    Kavanaugh’s previous judicial conduct was exemplary; and, among the current nine of the Supreme Court, he is one of the three smartest. He is the jurisprudentially best. [The other markedly smart Justices are (a) Roberts, who has proved himself thoroughly corrupt, and (b) Gorsuch, who in Bostock V. Clayton County, Georgia, https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf , either (i) suffered a lapse of honor and intelligence or (ii) presented a symptom of incipient-soon-to-become-chronically-manifest depravity.]

    For their behavior in the Kavanaugh-appointment fiasco, I wish that the Clintons, most Democrats (some are just stupid innocents), and the entire Deep State and Mainstream Media populations shall be afflicted by multiple sclerosis terminated by Hemangiosarcoma. [I except Republicans IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE only because their evils happen not to be mechanized to operate in a case like Kavanaugh’s.]

    In my comment of July 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm GMT (comment # 173) of THIS thread, I referred you to some of my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/

    At the time of the posting of my comment of July 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm GMT (comment # 173) of THIS thread, I had not posted under the above-cited John-Paul Leonard article all my comments that treat the matters addressed in my comments of July 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm GMT (comment # 172) and July 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm GMT (comment # 173) of THIS thread — comment # 172 and comment # 173 being reply-comments addressed to you.

    So, now, I refer you to a greater number of my comments posted under the same (above cited) John-Paul Leonard article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?”:
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 9:24 pm GMT (comment # 732)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

  236. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    I see that “map” has replied (comment # 237) to your comment (comment # 226) to which THIS comment replies — to debunk map’s comment (comment # 237) replying to your same comment.

    map asserted:

    …[The] “eggshell skull” nonsense doesn’t apply to cops. …. This is why police have qualified immunity …. A death in police custody is not, in any way, an obvious proximate cause of death for the person.

    Do not let map draw you into his toxic swamp. See the following judicial decisions, which are among MANY others that hold cops are not entitled to immunity and may be adjudged guilty of homicide when they act as did the cops who killed Floyd.

    (A) Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    [MORE]

    In Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008), law enforcement officers had far stronger possible defenses than do the cops who murdered Floyd — so that if in Richman v. Sheahan the officers’ acts, each alone, or together, constituted a liability-imposing proximate cause of the victim’s death, then, a fortiori, the cops have no defense that could justify (legally legitimate) acquittal. [I modify “acquittal” with “legally legitimate” becaue sometimes juries render illegal verdicts premised on “jury nullification” (a law-violating verdict rendered on premise of emotion or putative “conscience” or because sociopolitical bias, e.g., bigotry, that clashes with the requirement(a) of the law.]

    In Richman v. Sheahan, a federal civil rights case involving 4th and 8th amendment “excessive force” claims, the court applied the eggshell skull rule. The death-causing events happened in a Chicago, Illinois state court. The victim, Jack Richman [hereinafter called “Jack”], was a grossly obese 34-yearsold, 6 feet 2 inches tall and weighing 489 pounds. He walked with a cane.

    Jack and his mother [hereinafter called “Mom”] were in court and waiting for Mom’s traffic ticket case to be called. At the end of the court day, the judge told Mom he was continuing the case to the next day. Jack and Mom were irate, protested strenuously. The judge listened a while, then demanded they be quiet and threatened to hold them in contempt.

    Jack and Mom did not desist. The judge summoned deputy sheriffs. Two deputies responded. The judge told Jack and Mom to leave the court with the deputies, but they refused. The judge declared Jack in contempt, ordered the deputies to arrest him. Jack continued to refuse to leave peaceably. The judge upped Jack’s jail sentence until it reached 120 days.

    When the deputies tried to remove Jack forcibly, he clung to a podium and they could not dislodge him. Additional deputies entered the courtroom and tried to seize Jack. Mom began screaming and waving her cane. Three female deputies dragged her out of the courtroom and took her cane away. She tried to reenter but was blocked by a deputy. The female deputies thrust her into a wheelchair, wheeled her to another courtroom, and detained her briefly.

    Back in the courtroom, Jack continued to cling to the podium until several deputies managed to drag him from the podium to the floor, where he lay prone, his face down, still struggling, now with “a swarm of deputies.” Deputies tried to handcuff him — eventually succeeded. The judge now absent, several deputies positioned themselves on Jack’s back, Jack screamed that he could not breathe. Then he fell quiet. The deputies noticed that Jack had urinated and defecated and that his skin had turned blue. He was dead.

    An autopsy report stated that Jack died as a result of coronary artery disease to which “restraint hypoxia” (aka “positional asphyxia”) had contributed, partly because of Jack’s morbid obesity. Hypoxia can be induced by compressing the lungs — as by the weight of several persons on a victim’s back. Just so, for at least 25 years, national and local police training manuals warned law enforcement officers not to sit on the back of a person they are trying to restrain, especially if he is obese. See National Law Enforcement Technology Center, “Positional Asphyxia — Sudden Death” (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, June 1995) and Chicago Police Department, Training Bulletin: Positional Asphyxia (Feb. 1995).

    Applying the eggshell skull rule, the court put a hypothetical case to help explain the court’s pertinent holding:

    So, if you kick someone and unbeknownst to you he has a serious infection at the spot in which you kick him and as a result he dies of septicemia, you are fully liable for his death even though you could not have foreseen such a consequence from the kick.

    The court’s holding was: Because of his infirmities, Richman [Jack] did not have a normal life expectancy. But the force used against him by the swarm of deputies accelerated his death; how soon he would have died from causes unrelated to the use of that force is relevant only to damages.

    That holding means that, as a matter of law, the defendant deputy sheriffs had violated Jack’s civil right not to be victim of would-be-felonious homicidal “excessive force” exerted by the defendant deputy sheriffs. The defendant had no defense against liability, but only a defense against a bogus or excessive claim of money-damages.

    (B) Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q=Richman+v+Sheahan+512+F+3d+876+7th+Cir+2008+murder+OR+manslaughter+OR+homicide+”Richman+v.+Sheahan”&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    July 8, 2010, Booker was arrested…related to a drug charge. Police transported him to a jail to be booked. The jail has an intake area called a “cooperative seating area” where arrestees wait to complete booking. According to the Defendants (sheriff’s deputies, which I shall call “cops”), uncooperative arrestees are moved into nearby intake/isolation cells until they calm down.

    Deputy Gomez called for Mr. Booker to approach the booking desk. Booker did, but his precise behavior is disputed. Gomez determined that Booker be moved from the cooperative seating area to cell I-8, an intake/isolation cell. Gomez approached cell I-8 and ordered Booker to enter. He turned away and walked toward a short set of stairs that returned to the cooperative seating area.

    Gomez approached from behind Booker to stop him from returning to the cooperative seating area. Gomez reached toward Booker’s upper left arm, but he pulled away from her grasp. When she tried again to grab Mr. Booker’s arm, he swung his left arm up and away from her. He then turned toward Gomez and swung his left elbow, nearly striking her head.

    Deputies James Grimes, Kenneth Robinette, Kyle Sharp, and Sergeant Carrie Rodriguez witnessed Booker swing his elbow at Gomez. According to their affidavits, they viewed Booker’s action as aggressive and hurried to help Gomez, who was trying to restrain Booker. Within a few seconds, they took Booker to the ground, where he lay in the “prone” position on his stomach.

    Deputy Grimes put Booker in a “carotid restraint.” According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” (Defendants acknowledging “[a]n effective carotid restraint typically results in the subject going unconscious within five to twenty seconds”). The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.”

    Meanwhile, Gomez and other cops tried to handcuff Mr. Booker’s hands behind his back. Deputy Robinette applied a “gooseneck hold,” a pain compliance technique, by bringing Booker’s right hand behind him. Leaning over Booker, Robinette swept Booker’s right wrist behind his back for handcuffing. Eventually, Gomez and Robinette secured Booker’s left wrist for handcuffing. After Booker was handcuffed, Robinette put his knee on Booker’s back, and applied 50 to 75 percent of his (Robinette’a) total body weight of approximately 190 pounds.

    Deputy Sharp used Orcutt Police Nunchakus (“OPN”) on Booker. The OPN is a pain compliance device used to apply pressure on a subject. After Booker was taken to the ground, Sharp secured the OPN to his left ankle and applied pressure. After Booker was handcuffed, Sharp removed the OPN. Sharp asserts Booker then kicked his feet in his direction, but the Plaintiffs deny this allegation. Sharp reapplied the OPN to Booker’s left ankle and told other deputies Booker had tried to kick him.

    When Booker was handcuffed and other deputies had control of his limbs, Deputy Grimes requested that a taser be used on Booker. Sergeant Rodriguez, a supervisor, was handed a taser and applied the taser in “drive stun mode” to Booker’s leg for eight seconds. The standard cycle is five seconds.

    After Rodriguez used the taser on Booker, Grimes ended his carotid hold and Sharp removed the OPN from Booker’s ankle. Two minutes and 55 seconds expired between the time Gomez tried to grab Booker’s arm and when Grimes released the carotid hold.

    The district court did not explicitly state whether there was a genuine issue of material fact as to the level of Booker’s resistance during the use of force. In their affidavits, the officers asserted Booker resisted efforts to restrain him during virtually the entire use of force. Only after the taser’s use, they claim, did Booker stop resisting. In light of these submissions, the Defendant cops urge us to rely on the “undisputed testimony of the deputies … to augment that which cannot be seen on video.” This we cannot do.

    Because the record indicated the primary factual dispute in the district court was Booker’s resistance, in an interlocutory appeal, the appellate court must resolve this dispute in the Plaintiffs’ favor. The court analysis accepted that Booker did not resist during the vast majority of the encounter. The cops argued the video evidence belies this conclusion, but they are mistaken. In fact, the video shows Booker motionless on the floor while the deputies subdue him, and that showing contradicts the cops’ assertion that Booker consistently resisted them.

    After restraining Booker, four deputies lifted him by his limbs and carried him to cell I-8. Booker’s then-condition is disputed. The cops did not check Booker’s vitals or attempt to determine whether he needed immediate medical attention. They placed him face down on the cell floor. The cops removed Booker’s handcuffs from behind his back and left him alone in the cell. Approximately a minute and a half passed between the time the deputies placed Booker in the cell and then left the cell.

    After leaving the cell, Rodriguez secured the taser in its designated storage location and then went to the nurses’ office to request that Booker be evaluated. The parties dispute whether Rodriguez conveyed that Booker’s condition was an emergency or merely that he was “acting like he’s unresponsive.”

    Sharp returned to the cell about 21 seconds after the other deputies left. He yelled to Grimes that Booker did not appear to be breathing and needed medical attention. Grimes looked through the cell window and confirmed this observation. Grimes yelled for others to “step it up.” Sharp went to the nurses’ station and told a nurse to hurry.

    When the nurse arrived, approximately 4 minutes and 48 seconds had passed since the use of force incident ended. Attempts to resuscitate Booker were unsuccessful. He was transported to a nearby hospital and pronounced dead.

    The medical examiner opined in the autopsy report that the cause of Mr. Booker’s death was “cardiorespiratory arrest during physical restraint.” The report states,

    The restraints consisted of weight applied to the decedent’s body while held prone on the floor, application of a carotid “sleeper” hold …, application of a Taser to a lower extremity in the “stun drive” mode for 8 seconds, restriction of arm movement by cuffing his hands behind his back, and restriction of leg movement by use of an “OPN” (nunchuk).

    Booker’s death was listed as homicide. Plaintiffs’ experts opined that Mr. Booker died of asphyxia caused by the deputies’ efforts to restrain him.

    The applellate court held, inter alia, the following:

    (1) The cops were not immune — partly, and very importantly, but not only, because the cops were guilty of deliberate indifference to the foreseeable deadly consequence of their conduct vis-a-vis Booker’s condition during the cops’ uses of the restraints they applied to Booker.

    Cops are entitled to qualified immunity unless: (a) a reasonable jury could find unconstitutional the deputies’ use of force — a carotid restraint, pressure on Mr. Booker’s back, and application of a taser — once Mr. Booker was fully restrained; (b) the use of force violated clearly established law. For the following reasons, the court concluded that the Plaintiffs met both of these burdens and the court affirmed the district court’s denial of qualified immunity on Plaintiffs’ excessive force claim.

    A court must consider three “factors” in evaluating a 14th amendment excessive force claim: (1) the relationship of the amount of force used and the need presented; (2) extent of injury inflicted; and (3) the motives of the cops.

    Deputy Robinette placed an estimated 142.5 pounds — more than Booker’s overall weight — on Booker’s back while he was handcuffed on his stomach. Because of Mr. Booker’s prone, restrained, position, the placement of weight exceeding Mr. Booker’s total body weight could be construed as substantial or significant.

    Deputy Grimes used the carotid restraint for approximately two and a half minutes even though he was trained to use it for only one minute. Because of the duration of Grimes’s carotid restraint, his training, the factual dispute over whether he released the carotid restraint intermittently, and the fact that Booker was otherwise restrained for a significant period when the carotid restraint was used, a reasonable jury could conclude Grimes’s carotid-restraint-use was disproportionate to the need for force.

    Respecting the matter of the extent of injury inflicted, the court found that the evidence weighed “considerably” against the cops and that the claim was sustainable. The autopsy report concluded that Booker died of cardiorespiratory arrest as a result of restraint. The report describes the carotid hold, the pressure on Booker’s back, and the taser as contributing to Mr. Booker’s death. Plaintiffs’ experts opine that Booker died of asphyxia caused by the cops’ restraints, and a court may not weigh such expert opinion’s credibility in an appeal.

    (C) See also Salcido v. Harris County (SD Texas 2018), which involved similar facts and in which the court held:
    (a) that the plaintiffs had adduced evidence capable of establishing that the defendant deputy sheriffs [“cops”] were aware of facts from which an inference of excessive risk to the victim’s health or safety could be drawn, that the cops actually drew an inference that such potential of harm existed, and that the cops acted with deliberate indifference to the foreseeability that their conduct would case the victim’s death
    (b) that the evidence created a possibility that the cops were not entitled to immunity. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11564922298315914148&q=eggshell+skull+homicide+police+or+sheriff+choke+hold+or+compression&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    • Replies: @map
  237. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Going back to the Jack Richman case, the obese guy who was asphyxiated. This is from your link that you neglected:

    What counts as excessive force in a particular case is of course relative to circumstances, and two circumstances are critical so far as Jack Richman’s Fourth Amendment claim is concerned. The first is his extreme obesity, which was obvious to the deputies, and the second is the lack of urgency to remove him from the courtroom. The first factor, though not the second, was present in Estate of Phillips v. City of Milwaukee, 123 F.3d 586 (7th Cir. 1997), another case of positional asphyxia, but with critical differences, including danger to the police from the person they were struggling with, a lesser use of force, and the nonobviousness of the victim’s vulnerabilities.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    George Floyd was not a frail fat guy trying to get removed from a courtroom where the urgency of that removal was not present. It was also not obvious that Floyd had any vulnerabilities other than his own statements about having trouble breathing, which could have been him simply trying to get out of being placed in a police car.

    This case is only tangentially related to George Floyd.

  238. map says:
    @Bombercommand

    This is my reply to Loup-Bouc:

    Going back to the Jack Richman case, the obese guy who was asphyxiated. This is from your link that you neglected:

    What counts as excessive force in a particular case is of course relative to circumstances, and two circumstances are critical so far as Jack Richman’s Fourth Amendment claim is concerned. The first is his extreme obesity, which was obvious to the deputies, and the second is the lack of urgency to remove him from the courtroom. The first factor, though not the second, was present in Estate of Phillips v. City of Milwaukee, 123 F.3d 586 (7th Cir. 1997), another case of positional asphyxia, but with critical differences, including danger to the police from the person they were struggling with, a lesser use of force, and the nonobviousness of the victim’s vulnerabilities.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    George Floyd was not a frail fat guy trying to get removed from a courtroom where the urgency of that removal was not present. It was also not obvious that Floyd had any vulnerabilities other than his own statements about having trouble breathing, which could have been him simply trying to get out of being placed in a police car.

    This case is only tangentially related to George Floyd.

  239. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    Beware of crazed creatures sinking in their toxic swamps. Desperate, they will snap you in, like a twig grasped for impossible salvation.

    In his comment of July 18, 2020 at 8:45 pm GMT (comment # 237), map asserted:

    …[The] “eggshell skull” nonsense doesn’t apply to cops. …. This is why police have qualified immunity …. A death in police custody is not, in any way, an obvious proximate cause of death for the person.

    In my reply, I presented three federal court decisions that showed:

    [MORE]

    (a) The eggshell skull rule does apply to cops.

    (b) When cops violate that rule and the victim dies, (1) their conduct is the proximate cause of the victim’s death, and (2) they lose qualified immunity and can be adjudged guilty of wrongful death, civil or criminal violation of the victim’s 4th amendment or 5th or 14th amendment due process right, or criminal homicide, even “depraved indifference” murder, “depraved heart” murder, or, as in Minnesota, “depraved mind” murder, or, also as in Minnesota (particularly in Floyd’s case), felony murder in which the predicate act is felony assault or felony civil-rights-violation.

    So, recognizing that his assertion was dreck, map retreated to attempting to distinguish Floyd’s cade from Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38

    Richman v. Sheahan and Floyd’s case ARE distinct. But the distinction indicates that in Floyd case, the cops are MORE OBVIOUSLY GUILTY.

    map adverts to the Richman court’s observation that Richman’s “extreme obesity…was obvious to the deputies.” But Floyd’s distress was obvious to the cops that killed Floyd— as I, and others, has shown several times, even others who attempt, vainly, low-ignorantly, to argue that Floyd’s obvious distress exonerates Floyd’s killers, as if the eggshell skull rule did not exist. See, e.g., my below-listed comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ :
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT (comment # 426), as corrected by my comment of June 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm GMT (comment # 461)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:03 pm GMT (comment # 432)
    * my comment of June 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm GMT (comment # 433)
    * my comment of June 26, 2020 at 5:31 pm GMT (comment # 486)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 4:26 pm GMT (comment # 633)
    * my comment of July 1, 2020 at 9:08 pm GMT (comment # 639)
    * my comment of July 5, 2020 at 8:35 pm GMT (comment # 707)
    * my comment of July 8, 2020 at 4:16 am GMT (comment # 714)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT (comment # 724)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm GMT (comment # 730)
    * my comment of July 10, 2020 at 9:24 pm GMT (comment # 732)
    * my comment of July 13, 2020 at 12:52 am GMT (comment # 735)

    Floyd’s case is distinct from the Richman case in vital way that makes the Floyd-killing-cops even more securely guilty than the Richman case cops. The Richman case victim resisted the cops, even the court’s judge, long and flagrantly, even violently, and, because of the Richman victim’s immense weight and manifestly great strength, threatened the cops markedly. But Floyd did not threaten HIS killers — anywise, at all.

    Notice that map did not try to distinguish Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q=Richman+v+Sheahan+512+F+3d+876+7th+Cir+2008 — the facts and law of which I presented extensively in my comment of July 19, 2020 at 11:25 pm GMT (comment # 241). map did not even acknowledge the Estate of Booker v. Gomez case’s existence.

    In Estate of Booker v. Gomez, the victim was not obese, but, apparently of rather average height and weight — apparently so, because neither the courts (trial court and appellate court) nor the plaintiff or defendant remarked at the victim’s poundage or stature. But the victim DID resist custody — two ways:

    (a) The victim tried to evade custody: When Deputy Gomez ushered the victim to a holding cell and ordered the victim to enter, the victim turned away and walked toward a short set of stairs that returned to the cooperative seating area, where one could exit the sheriff’s building.

    (b) When Gomez approached the victim from behind to stop him from returning to the cooperative seating area, Gomez tried to grab the victim’s arm, and the victim swung his left arm up and away from Gomez. Then the victim turned toward Gomez and swung his left elbow at Gomez and nearly struck Gomez’s head. Gomez was a woman.

    Estate of Booker v. Gomez was distinct from Floyd’s case another way that shows Floyd’s killers were more obviously guilty than were the cops in Estate of Booker v. Gomez. In Estate of Booker v. Gomez , one guilty cop applied to the victim the same neck-compression hold that Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd. But in Estate of Booker v. Gomez , that culprit cop, Deputy Grimes, applied that hold for only about two and a half minutes. In Floyd’s case, however, Officer Chauvin applied that neck-compression hold for about 8 minutes, including for more than 3 minutes after Floyd had fallen unconscious.

    In Estate of Booker v. Gomez, the appellate court observed:

    The [neck-compression (carotid-artery compression)] hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds” [emphasis added by me, Loup-Bouc]. ([The defendant cops acknowledged that “[a]n effective carotid restraint typically results in the subject going unconscious within five to twenty seconds.”) The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” [Emphases added by me, Loup-Bouc.]

    COMPARE Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .

    In Estate of Booker v. Gomez, while Deputy Grimes applied the neck-compression hold, another cop applied a back-press hold:

    Deputy Robinette applied a “gooseneck hold,” a pain compliance technique, by bringing Mr. Booker’s right hand behind him. Leaning over Mr. Booker, Deputy Robinette swept Mr. Booker’s right wrist behind his back for handcuffing. Eventually, Deputies Gomez and Robinette secured Mr. Booker’s left wrist for handcuffing. After Mr. Booker was handcuffed, Deputy Robinette put his knee on Mr. Booker’s back, applying 50 to 75 percent of his total body weight of approximately 190 pounds.

    In Floyd’s case, one or two cops applied a dorsal-thorax-compression hold to Floyd — during, and for much of, the same time-span in which Officer Chauvin applied a neck-compression hold to Floyd.

    Vis-a-vis the neck-compression and back-compression holds applied in both Floyd’s case and in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, one other distinction makes Floyd’s killers more securely guilty.

    Floyd was suffering clearly apparent and substantial physical and physiological distress — staggering gait, stumbling, falling, difficulty of rising after falling, dyspnea, white froth at his lips. But in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, ZERO evidence suggested that the victim was suffering any physical or physiological distress or that he was anywise ill or weak; and still, after only at most a couple minutes of neck and back compression applied to him, the victim was dead — AND the cops were not liability-immune, but were presumptively guilty.

    Respecting whether the plaintiffs established that the cops violated the victims’s constitutional right not to suffer “excessive force” apllied by police, the district court stated:

    Given the version of the facts that the plaintiff alleges — and they more than just allege it, there is video, which is subject to interpretation, there is apparently testimony from inmates who observed these proceedings, this incident and so forth — if what happened is what the plaintiff claims, then any reasonable officer in Denver or anywhere else would know that that was excessive force. It’s just not even a close call.

    The appellate court agreed and affirmed the district court’s treatment of the matter.

    Since such was true in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, a fortiori Floyd’s case is a blazingly clear instance of murder committed by cops.

    • Replies: @map
    , @map
  240. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Listen, stupid, everybody knows that qualified immunity can be litigated away and a judge can remove that. That is why it is called “qualified.”

  241. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Yes, and, again, you miss one very important detail in the Gomez case:

    First, that the whole event took place in the jailhouse where there was video of what happened. We have yet to see anything related to the body cam footage in the Floyd case.

    Second, this is case about applying qualified immunity. It is not a case that determines “a fortiori Floyd’s case is a blazingly clear instance of murder committed by cops.”

  242. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Bombercommand

    The sublimely idiotic creature, “map,” now asserts [comment of July 21, 2020 at 10:57 pm GMT (comment # 245)]:

    Listen, stupid, everybody knows that qualified immunity can be litigated away and a judge can remove that. That is why it is called “qualified.”

    But previously, in his, her, or its comment of July 18, 2020 at 8:45 pm GMT (comment # 237), “map” asserted:

    …[The] “eggshell skull” nonsense doesn’t apply to cops. …. This is why police have qualified immunity

    Then, not content with showing himself, herself, or itself to be a fool who refutes his own argument to save “face” (or another, uglier part of his, her, or its anatomy), this creature adds [in his, her, or its comment of July 21, 2020 at 11:08 pm GMT (comment # 246)]:

    [MORE]

    Yes, and, again, you miss one very important detail in the Gomez case:

    First, that the whole event took place in the jailhouse where there was video of what happened. We have yet to see anything related to the body cam footage in the Floyd case.

    Second, this is case about applying qualified immunity. It is not a case that determines “a fortiori Floyd’s case is a blazingly clear instance of murder committed by cops.”

    The killing’s place (street, courthouse, aircraft, cop-van, ocean vessel……) is irrelevant. The matter is only WHAT THE COPS DID TO WHOM OF WHAT CONDITION IN WHAT LEGAL CONTEXT (legal context meaning, e.g., arrest, police-custody, non-custodial police-interrogation, unlawful police breaking and entering private premises…….).

    The Floyd-case prosecution will not need “bodycam” footage [though, allegedly, one Floyd-killing cop’s defense counsel adduced an alleged “transcript” of alleged bodycam footage, see comment of Tusk posted July 10, 2020 at 6:13 am GMT (comment # 24)]. The prosecution has a huge quantum of relevant evidence that includes, inter alia, several videos and:
    (1) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .
    (2) The Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression”(my emphasis, Loup-Bouc] [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (3) The Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (4) The independent autopsy conducted by Dr. Allecia M. Wilson, director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan, and Dr. Michael Baden, previous chief medical examiner of New York City, and the autopsy report issued by Drs. Wilson and Baden.
    (5) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399).]
    (6) Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    (7) Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    (8) Several state and munipal formal warnings that police must not apply neck-compression holds for more than a minute of a similarly brief time, see, e.g. Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , where, at p.413, the court observed:

    Deputy Grimes put Mr. Booker in a “carotid restraint.” …. According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” …. The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” *** The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” …. [Citations ommitted and one ellipsis added by me, Loup-Bouc]

    And, if [as was true in Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008)], the cops committed homicide respecting which they had no immunity, then, in Floyd’s case, the killing was a fortiori homicide, and, per Minnesota law, MURDER, because, while in Richman v. Sheahan, the victim DID resist arrest long, hard, even violently, Floyd did NOT resist arrest, EVER.

    Richman v. Sheahan was NOT ONLY “about qualified immunity.” To determine whether the cops’ qualified immunity would hold, the court had to determine whether the killing was a homicide and, if so, whether its whole quality was such that indicated holding the cops not immune. And the court did hold that the killing was a homicide such that indicated denying the cops qulified immunity. That fact appears from the court’s discussion at 512 F. 3d p.880-p.885, especially (but not only) at p.884:

    The tortfeasor takes his victim as he finds him. That is the “eggshell skull” rule…. *** So if you kick someone and unbeknownst to you he has a serious infection at the spot in which you kick him and as a result he dies of septicemia, you are fully liable for his death even though you could not have foreseen such a consequence from the kick. Because of his infirmities, Richman did not have a normal life expectancy. But the force used against him by the swarm of deputies accelerated his death; how soon he would have died from causes unrelated to the use of that force is relevant only to damages. …. [Emphasis added, and the court’s citations of other cases omitted, by me, Loup-bouc.]

    Since the court held relevant only to damages the matter of how soon the victim would have died from causes unrelated to the cops’ use of excessive force, the court held that the cops were liable for homicidal violation of the victim’s 4th amendment right to be free from unreasonable seizure (unreasonable because involving excessive force) or the victim’s right not to suffer 8th-amendment-violating punishment (re: the punbishment matter, see Richman v. Sheahan at pages 882-883).

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @map
  243. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    In my comment of July 22, 2020 at 1:33 am GMT (comment # 247), this appears:

    (5) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399).]

    That entry is missing a complete citation of my commnent that is referenced there. The complete entry and citation are:

    (5) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]

  244. @Rurik

    I’m looking at the picture, and the neck isn’t really being compressed or constricted. The knee is just hovering, albiet it is touching.

    I suppose I could open microsoft paint and measure distances and calculate how many inches off the ground the knee is and if there is really pressure on the neck.

    The spine goes into the center of the skull and holds the neck off the ground when laying down. It would be hard to compress the neck by applying pressure on only one side, you would need to close the empty space on the other side.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  245. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    (A) Either you hallucinate, or you lie. The video evidence shows the opposite of your false assertions.

    (B) Either you do not understand the mechanics of neck-compression that obstructs carotid artery or jugular vein blood-flow, or you lie.

    (C) This much is clear: Your inexpert opinion clashes with all the expert opinions (including mine): Officer Chauvin caused Floyd to die by asphyxiation.

  246. Enough verbiage. Here are the numbers in a nutshell.
    Annual US deaths from drug overdoses: 70000
    All time deaths reported anywhere from knee-neck restraint: 0.
    IQ of those who believe in “knee hold murder:” approx. 0.
    At least on subjects where they are blinded by prejudice.

  247. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Annual US deaths from drug overdoses: 70000

    That number proves NOTHING respecting any particular case. That reality is basic statistics. And see, e.g., Leonard R. Jaffee, Of Probativity and Probability: Statistics, Scientific Evidence, and the Calculus of Chance at Trial, 46 University of Pittsburgh Law Review 925 (1985). Also see my MANY Unz Review comments (even posted under your dreck article) that show such raw data, even if true, prove nothing.

    All time deaths reported anywhere from knee-neck restraint: 0.

    Wrong. See, e.g., Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q
    Death caused by knee-neck restraint. See also several of the comments of The Scalpel, posted under Fred Reed’s Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/#comment-3957894

    Now shut up, moron-racist-fool-liar-scumbag-fraud.

    • Replies: @John-Paul Leonard
  248. map says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    (1) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),

    And despite this piece of literature, that particular neckhold was taught to Minneapolis Police, is a standard hold allowed in their own police training material, and specifically does not cause asphyxia, which is why it was approved by the city in the first place. This isn’t a bunch of courthouse guards sitting on a fat guy.

    (2) The Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression”(my emphasis, Loup-Bouc] [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

    This is a complete lack of reading comprehension. The examiner did not write “cardiopulmonary arrest caused by law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.” He wrote “complicating.” Complicating means “to twist” or become “twisted together.” This wording notes a distinction between correlation and causation. The ME is writing that two events happened to occur together. The ME is not writing that one caused the other.

    It’s like saying “complications from a surgery” does not mean the complication was caused by the surgery.

    “Subdual” simply means “act of subduing.”

    From that same ME report:

    III. No life-threatening injuries identified

    A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
    B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal
    structures
    C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
    D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other
    than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column
    injuries, or visceral injuries
    E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and
    lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks
    negative for occult trauma

    Did you read that from the ME report: NO LIFE-THREATENING INJURIES IDENTIFIED

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @RT
  249. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    In my comment of July 23, 2020 at 6:11 am GMT (comment # 253), I neglected to point out that in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , the victim was lying prone, front-down (on his chest and abdomen) when the carotid-artery/jugular-vein obstructing neck-compression hold was applied to him — so that the culprit cop had to exert pressure on the carotid and jugular vessels by pulling sideways and squeezing with his arm, NOT by squeezing with his arm and applying his body-mass, hence force of gravity.

    [MORE]

    Therefore, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, the applied force was markedly less than the force Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd’s neck with his (Chauvin’s) knee-press choke-hold that applied not only Chauvin’s leg-muscle-source pressure-exertion, but also Chauvin’s body mass, hence force-of-gravity.

    Cops have killed a notable number of civilians (especially Blacks) with carotid-artery/jugular-vein neck-compressions. Just in year 1980 Los Angeles, California, a city where Black males constituted 9% of the population, Black males accounted for 75% of the 16 deaths resulting from cop-use of choke-holds.
    See Los Angeles v. Lyons, 461 US 95 (1983), Dissent of Justices Marshall, Brennan, Blackmun, and Stevens, at footnote 3 of that Dissent,
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4587981977816900853&q=Los+Angeles+v.+Lyons,+461+US+95&hl=en&as_sdt=6,38

  250. Loup-Bouc says:
    @map

    YOU are the one who cannot read — cannot read, e.g., the other materials of record that show your observations are bullshit.

    The Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Press Release that states, expressly, that the cause of Floyd’s death was “homicide.” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    That Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Press Release statement indicates that you cannot read the autopsy report.

    Also, the autopsy report states:

    [MORE]

    I. Blunt force injuries
    A. Cutaneous blunt force injuries of the forehead, face, and
    upper lip
    B. Mucosal injuries of the lips
    C. Cutaneous blunt force injuries of the shoulders, hands,
    elbows, and legs
    D. Patterned contusions (in some areas abraded) of the wrists,
    consistent with restraints (handcuffs)

    Autopsy Report page 1

    The Autopsy Report states also the following:

    EVIDENCE OF INJURY:
    Head and Neck
     4 cm maximum dimension abraded red-black-purple contusion,
    lateral corner of left brow
     Pinpoint red abrasion, just left of the midline of the
    forehead
     6.5 cm maximum dimension red-black abrasion, left cheek
     0.6 cm maximum dimension red abrasion, just inferior to
    left corner of mouth
     0.8 cm maximum dimension curvilinear red avulsion, just
    superior to right side of upper lip
     Eight pinpoint to 0.2 cm maximum dimension red abrasions,
    right side of nose
     Faint blue contusions on the body of the nose (3.5 cm),
    right naris (1.5 cm), and left naris (1.0 cm)
     1.5 cm maximum dimension aggregate of pink-purple mucosal
    abrasions and lacerations, upper lip
     2 cm maximum dimension aggregate of pink-orange mucosal
    abrasions and lacerations, lower lip
    Shoulders and Extremities
     8 cm maximum dimension purple contusion with 4.5 cm maximum
    dimension aggregate of linear red abrasions, anterolateral
    right shoulder
     2 cm maximum dimension red L-shaped scratch, superior right
    shoulder
     14 cm maximum dimension pink-purple contusion with a
    discontinuous 8 cm maximum dimension dried red-black
    abrasion, left shoulder
     0.2 cm maximum dimension red abrasion, just medial to the
    right elbow
     3 cm maximum dimension faint pink contusion, just medial to
    the left elbow
     Pinpoint red abrasion, just medial and distal to the left
    elbow
     1.5 cm maximum dimension purple contusion, proximal right
    shin
     2.5 cm maximum dimension aggregate of red abrasions, distal
    right shin
     0.3 cm maximum dimension red abrasion over the left calf
    Wrists and Hands
     1.4 cm maximum dimension red and dried black abrasion,
    dorsum of proximal interphalangeal joint, right index
    finger
     Two 0.8 cm maximum dimension red and focally dried black
    abrasions, dorsum of proximal interphalangeal joint, right
    middle finger
     Circumferential, discontinuous, 3.5 cm maximum width,
    roughly parallel pink-purple contusions encircling the
    right wrist, with areas of superimposed abrasions up to 1.2
    cm maximum dimension; a 0.9 cm long superficial red scratch
    is on the lateral right wrist between the patterned
    contusion and the hand
     Circumferential, discontinuous, 2.5 cm maximum width,
    roughly parallel pink-purple contusions encircling the left
    wrist, with areas of superimposed abrasions up to 1.3 cm
    maximum dimension
    – On the anterolateral left wrist, in a 3.5 cm long
    area, the injury transitions to a dried yellow-black
    abraded furrow before blending into the anterior wrist
    crease
     2.2 cm maximum dimension purple contusion, dorsum of left
    hand

    Autopsy Report pages 7-9.

    The cause of death, SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION, does NOT require that the victim’s body bear residual signs of “life treatening injuries,” because that cause-of-death involves merely obstructing the carotid artery and jugular vein, which obstruction does not require neck-injury that shows, later, as “life-threatening” bruising or lacerations or lesions or anything else. The neck-compression, and, in Floyd’s case, also dorsal thorax compression, were, themselves, not mere life-threatening injuries, but death-causing injuries.

    The autopsy report did state [see the above-quoted text of pages 7-9 of the Autopsy Report] injuries caused by the cops’ pressing Floyd hard against the street’s pavement; and that pressure was applied when the cops killed Floyd by compressing his carotid artery, jugular vein, and dorsal thorax (and the dorsal thorax compression participated in causing Floyd’s death).

    Cop-caused compression-induced asphyxia is the cause-of-death stated in all the opinions of all the experts who conducted Floyd’s autopsies or reviewed the record (including the videos) of Floyd’s case. You are not an expert, but a racist moron who blathers fraudulent crap with every breath.

    ALL the expert opinions hold that neck-compression and dorsal thorax compression caused Floyd’s death. Quite enough forensic medicine scholarship and legal opinion agree that such mechanical neck or dorsal thorax compression can, often does, cause sudden death by cutting either or both blood-flow to and from the brain or vital pulmonary function. See, e.g.,
    (1) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .
    (2) the Hennepin County prosecutor
    (3) the Minnesota Attorney General
    (4) the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression” [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (5) the Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (6) “The Scalpel,” a long-time Emergency Room physician, see my [See The Scalpel’s comments cited and discussed in my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Pual Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (7) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Pual Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (8) Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    (9) Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    (10) Several state and munipal formal warnings that police must not apply neck-compression holds for more than a minute of a similarly brief time, see, e.g. Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , where, at p.413, the court observed:

    Deputy Grimes put Mr. Booker in a “carotid restraint.” …. According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” …. The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” *** The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” …. [Citations ommitted and one ellipsis added by me, Loup-Bouc]

    (11) mere me, Loup-Bouc, physician since 1998, lawyer since 1968, appointed assistant professor of law in 1972, appointed tenured associate professor of law in 1976, appointed tenured full professor of law in1978, still, now, full professor of law and source of arguments (some including medical matters) that have won in the U.S. Supreme Court, several federal appellate and trial courts, and supreme courts of several states, and author of numerous articles and books (seven involving medical, psychiatric, and statistics expositions) that enjoy wide respect and reliance of many lawyers, courts, medical scientists, statisticians……..]

    RE: the reality that compression-involved positional asphyxia can cause sudden death, see, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6023692/ AND http://charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf AND https://www.umc.edu/som/Departments%20and%20Offices/SOM%20Departments/Pediatrics/Divisions/Forensic-Medicine/files/investigating_asphyxial_deaths.pdf AND https://forensicmed.webnode.com/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/ AND
    https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/content/dam/sdc/hhsa/programs/phs/EMS/Medical_Director_Report/10-16-18%20Hanging%20Strangulation%20and%20Other%20Dr.%20Campman.pdf AND
    https://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html
    [I found numerous other actually-scientific sources that agree. I do not cite them, here, because they (e.g., PubMed) are accessible only to medical and biochemistry/physiolgy/forensic-pathology professionals, like ME, and some such sources are available only for payment of a fee (which I pay, annually).]

    Actually, Floyd’s death was NOT caused by Floyd’s POSITION, but by neck and dorsal thorax compression, which could have been equally lethal even if Floyd’s position had been different. Floyd died because of compression of the major blood vessels of his neck and compression of his thorax, thence hindrance of pulmonary function, and that compression could have occurred just as fatally had Floyd lay flat on is back or chest with his head turned or twisted so that Officer Chauvin’s knee-press choke-hold compressed a carotid artery, jugular vein, or both.

    So, call the cause-of-death not “positional asphyxia,” but “compression asphyxia” — the term used by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner (see above), Judy Melinek, MD (see above), Dr. Allecia M. Wilson (see above), Dr. Michael Baden (see above), Dr. Michael Hansen (see above), and Dr. Karl Williams (see above). “The Scalpel” agreed. I agree.

    Cops have killed a notable number of civilians (especially Blacks) with carotid-artery/jugular-vein neck-compressions. Just in year 1980 Los Angeles, California, a city where Black males constituted 9% of the population, Black males accounted for 75% of the 16 deaths resulting from cop-use of choke-holds.
    See Los Angeles v. Lyons, 461 US 95 (1983), Dissent of Justices Marshall, Brennan, Blackmun, and Stevens, at footnote 3 of that Dissent, https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4587981977816900853&q=Los+Angeles+v.+Lyons,+461+US+95&hl=en&as_sdt=6,38

    Elsewhere (in other comments), I showed FURTHER that all your bullshit observations, and John-Paul Leonard’s bullshit observations, are bullshit observations. I have cited numerous times my other comments shat show your observations and John-Paul Leonard’s observations are bullshit. I shall not repeat, another time all those comments or all my earlier citations of them.

    Your scum’s malodor is fouling this thread. Be gone, scum.

  251. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Two matters:

    (A) You asserted:

    Annual US deaths from drug overdoses: 70000

    I observed that your assertion (its “70000” number) proves NOTHING respecting any particular case. Such is so for three reasons.

    [MORE]

    (1) The number (for which you supply ZERO proof) is, putatively, the number of “annual” “drug overdose” deaths (deaths caused by overdose of ANY, UNSPECIFIED single drug or drug-combination, NOT the number of deaths caused by the specific drug-combination the Medical Examiner found, post mortem, in Floyd’s blood and urine.

    (2) Even if the 70000 number is some species of “truth,” still, since that number is an “annual” number, at best it is only a mean, NOT the actual number that occurred in any specific year, particularly year 2020 from 1 January of 2020 until the 25 May 2020 date of Floyd’s death.

    (3) Since Floyd’s blood and urine did bear a combination of drugs that, if of substantial overdose-quantity, might, in SOME condition, be lethal), one must compare that 70000 “annual” number with the total number of “drug”-users of any particular year, in Floyd’s case, year 2020.

    But, since only about a third of 2020 had past when Floyd died, one must cut the 70000 number. Let us assume (arbitrarily) that we must cut the number by 2/3, since only a quarter of 2020 had passed when, on 25 May 2020, Floyd died. Then: 70000 x 0.333 = 23310.

    Now, one must know the total number of users of whatever drugs can cause death if taken at “overdose”-quantity. No one can know that number.

    But assume, for sake of argument, the “annual” drug-user number is 10% of the population (a large-number assumption consistent with the federal government’s, the Drug Enforcement Agency’s, the Center for Disease Control’s, the Health and Human Services’s, and numerous other sources assertions that the nation is suffering an opioid-abuse epidemic, AND a large number consistent with your absurd “thesis”).

    In 2020 (at least at the start of 2020) , the United States population was at least 331,002,651. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ And 10% of that number is 33,100,265.

    Now, since (assuming your asserted 70000 “annual” number) 23310 is the arguable number of drug-overdose-caused deaths of 2020 from 1 January until the 25 May 2020 date of Floyd’s death, 23310 ÷ 33,100,265, or 0.000704, or 0.07% is the a priori chance of ANYONE’s dying because of drug-overdose. That is a VERY small chance.

    But that minute a priori chance is NOT the chance of dying from the specific drug-combination and its quantity and its drug-constituents-quantities present in Floyd’s dead body. And that a priori chance does NOT account the entirety, even ANY, of the health influences that affected Floyd at the time the cops applied their compression holds to Floyd.

    That a priori chance CANNOT account ANY of the ALL-non-quantifiable health influences that affected Floyd at the time the cops applied their compression holds to Floyd — the ALL-non-quantifiable influences that included, e.g., arrest-induced psychic stress, what Floyd ate recently, what Floyd did NOT eat recently, Floyd’s chronic cardiovascular condition, the physiological/biochemical effects of the cops’ compression-holds, the other acts the cops did to Floyd, and……..)

    Therefore, NO statistical method can account the probability that “a drug dose” (or particularly a fentanyl dose) even participated in causation of Floyd’s death. See
    Leonard R. Jaffee, Of Probativity and Probability: Statistics, Scientific Evidence, and the Calculus of Chance at Trial, 46 University of Pittsburgh Law Review 925 (1985)
    AND
    Leonard R. Jaffee, Prior Probability—A Black Hole in the Mathematician’s View of the Sufficiency and Weight of Evidence, 9 Cardozo Law Review 967 (1988)

    (B) At its beginning, my comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254) refers to a “comment of July 23, 2020 at 6:11 am GMT (comment # 253),” as if that comment-time and comment-number fit my comment referenced by my comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254). But a pending comment was deleted. That deletion altered comment-numbers and the stated times of actually-posted comments.

    Because of the effect of the comment-deletion, my comment # 254 needed to refer NOT to a comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254), but, instead, to my comment of July 23, 2020 at 5:08 am GMT (comment # 252).

  252. RT says:
    @map

    “C…..no brain injuries”
    If this is in the ME report, then it makes the argument of the neck compression as a cause of death very debatable. Compression of cervical vessels of a degree to cause death will leave detectable ischemic injuries to the brain.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  253. Loup-Bouc says:
    @RT

    Clearly, you know NOTHING of medicine, surely not the medical matters that must determined the cause of Floyd’s death.

    “C…..no brain injuries” is irrelevant, medically and legally, partly because that language is indeterminately ambiguous, partly because it can connote absence of traumatic brain-injury and carotid artery or jugular vein occlusion does NOT cause traumatic brain-injury.

    You put a risibly false assertion with this: “Compression of cervical vessels of a degree to cause death will leave detectable ischemic injuries to the brain.” [Your words, my emphases.]

    No brain-injury, even a very slight ischemic brain injury, necessarily follows from asphyxia-causing compression of carotid artery or jugular vein or from dorsal thorax compression.

    [MORE]

    The carotid artery and jugular vein — and simultaneously the dorsal thorax can be compressed — and such blood vessel or the lungs occluded more than enough to cause asphyxia quite without causing even a slightest brain injury of any kind or degree. I challenge you to cite even one actually scientific, valid, reliable medical source that shows that in EVERY case of asphyxia caused by carotid artery or jugular vein or dorsal thorax compression, a brain injury, at least a minute ischemic injury, must have occurred. You will find NONE — for several reasons.

    ONE REASON is that, as in Floyd’s case, rapid-occurring asphyxia can induce death too quickly to permit brain-injury. In condition of normothermia, within 20 seconds of cranial blood flow interruption, the brain’s electrical activity may begin to disappear, probably (but not surely) per failure of high-energy metabolism. Often (but not always) within 5 minutes, high-energy phosphate levels may have nearly disappeared — thus ATP depletion. Serious cell-electrolyte-balance-disturbance may begin. But, most often, ischemic brain-tissue injury requires occurrence of still other, different pathologic biochemical/physiological events, which require more time.

    The other events involve, e.g., pathologic alterations of calcium, sodium, and phosphorous distributions/exchanges and eventual consequent mitochondrial sequestration, thence calcium-overloading of mitochondria and diminished oxidative-phosphorylation-capacity. Elevated intracellular Ca++ will activate membrane phospholipases and protein kinases, thence production of free fatty acids [herinafter “FFA’s”], thence membrane-degradation caused by phospholipases and advanced reduction of calcium-pumping efficiency, which produces further calcium-overload and intracellular calcium-regulation-failure, which occurs during an ischemic episode. And, most often, FFAs bear other cell-membrane-degrading effects.

    Sundry other mechanisms are involved. But the preceding is enough to show that significantly often ischemic injury requires considerable time. Floyd was dead, however, within about five minutes after the cops began applying their neck-compression and dorsal-thorax-compression techniques.

    ANOTHER REASON is that jugular-vein-compression-caused asphyxia involves pathological cranial carbon dioxide retention, which is less likely to cause even slight ischemic brain-tissue injury.

    A THIRD REASON is that, as in Floyd’s case, dorsal thorax compression can cause, or participate in causing, fatal asphyxia or cardiac arrest without causing brain-injury, because the biochemical/physiological mechanics can be largely, though not only, local to the lungs, thence the heart — by means of impairment of pulmonary management of oxygen/carbon-dioxide transfer and obstruction of heart/lung blood-exchange.

    I have been a physician since 1998. But you will insist that I am biased in favor of my own opinion. So, view, and listen to, these videos involving extensive opinions of two physicians (each one independent of the other):
    * https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    * https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=xRoqSyIi-98&feature=emb_title

    And, bear in mind that the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Press Release ruled Floyd’s death a “homicide.” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf

    And READ my comment of July 23, 2020 at 3:39 pm GMT (comment # 255) — and also ALL my earlier comments of this thread and all my comments posted under John-Paul Leonard’s Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]

    Your non-expert blithering moronism is well beyond tiresome.

    Vanish.

    • Replies: @RT
  254. RT says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Young colleague (since 1998 ), you wrote a gibberish here. Most physiological/biochemical statements in your comment are true, but separately, not together.
    A global ischemic brain unjury (in a healthy brain!) occurs after approximately 6 min., not 20 seconds, otherwise we would not be able to perform certain surgeries on carotid arteries with only a clamp and wthout bypass, which we do. A local ischemia (called ischemic stroke) takes different time depending on the area of the occluded vessel. Both are detectable on autopsy. Reread your basic textbooks.
    A person with sudden cardiac arrest will not keep saying “I cannot breath”, because he will be aready dead.
    Please, bring some clarity here: are you saying that Mr. Floyd suffered from asphyxia, brain ischemia, or cardiac arrest and what medical signs and symptoms are proof of each one? Just do not refer to you previous comments, please. And no mishmash of ions, carbon dioxide and calcium channels.

  255. Loup-Bouc says:
    @RT

    A global ischemic brain unjury (in a healthy brain!) occurs after approximately 6 min., not 20 seconds

    I did not say that ischemic brain injury (in a healthy brain!) occurs in 20 seconds. I said:

    In condition of normothermia, within 20 seconds of cranial blood flow interruption, the brain’s electrical activity may begin to disappear

    Do not try to say I said what I did not say and then try to rebut what I did not say rather than what I did say. That “straw man” argument method is toxically spurious.

    You fudge with your assertion “in a healthy brain” “ischemic brain unjury” “occurs after approximately 6 min.” What is a “healthy brain.” Clearly not yours.

    But “healthy” is a continuum matter; so, a hard 6 minute rule is, clearly, bullshit.

    A local ischemia (called ischemic stroke) takes different time depending on the area of the occluded vessel. Both are detectable on autopsy.

    Partly true, but only if it occurs. And your language “takes different time” is another fudge, and, ironically, a concession that my related statments were truths.

    Also, neither I nor any of the other experts who agree with me have asserted that Floyd suffered, or did not suffer, an ischemic stroke. Such a proposition (the positive or the negative) would be irrelevant, and bullshit, in Floyd’s case. See my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258) and see the two physicians’ opinions that I linked in that comment.

    A person with sudden cardiac arrest will not keep saying “I cannot breath”, because he will be aready dead. [Sic.]

    Again, you set up a straw man to knock down. Again you argue spuriously. Neither I nor any of the other experts suggested that Floyd said ANYTHING when, or about 3+ minutes before, ULTIMATELY, Floyd died from cardiac arrest. Such a proposition would be insane, and among this thread’s comment-posters, you and “map” and John-Paul Leonard — not I — are the insane (or fraudulent) ones.

    Throughout, your reply is tainted by lies.

    I note that you did not attempt to rebut ANYTHING of what ACTUALLY I said. The reason is that you CANNOT rebut anything I said, because all my statements were truths.

    I note also that you did not try to rebut anything of the opinions of the two actual medical experts whose videos I linked. You cannot rebut their statements, because they are truths.

    If you are a physician, your license ought to be revoked. Perhaps is has been revoked (if ever you were a physician).

    Vanish, fraud.

  256. Loup-Bouc says:
    @RT

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 2:37 am GMT(comment # 260), I neglecedt to remind you that in my earlier reply [my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258), I included this:

    I challenge you to cite even one actually scientific, valid, reliable medical source that shows that in EVERY case of asphyxia caused by carotid artery or jugular vein or dorsal thorax compression, a brain injury, at least a minute ischemic injury, must have occurred. You will find NONE….

    I repeat that challenge, here.

  257. Loup-Bouc says:
    @RT

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 2:37 am GMT(comment # 260), I neglecedt to remind you that in my earlier reply [my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258), I included this:

    [MORE]

    I challenge you to cite even one actually scientific, valid, reliable medical source that shows that in EVERY case of asphyxia caused by carotid artery or jugular vein or dorsal thorax compression, a brain injury, at least a minute ischemic injury, must have occurred. You will find NONE — for several reasons.

    Still, you have not responded to my challenge. [Nor have you presented ANY sustainable argument for your position.] So, I repeat that same challenge, here.

    You wrote:

    Please, bring some clarity here: are you saying that Mr. Floyd suffered from asphyxia, brain ischemia, or cardiac arrest

    The unclarity is in your brain — not in my comments. In the comment to which your replied, and in numerous others, I stated clearly that Floyd died because of either or both
    (a) cop-applied neck compression causing carotid artery occlusion (or obstruction)
    (b) cop-applied dorsal thorax compression
    which cop-applied compressions caused Floyd to suffer asphyxia causing terminal cardiac arrest. See, e.g.,
    * my comments of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258)
    * my comments of July 23, 2020 at 3:39 pm GMT (comment # 255)
    * my comments of July 21, 2020 at 6:15 pm GMT (comment # 244)

    YOU put the argument that if carotid artery or jugular vein compression caused asphyxia that caused cardiac arrest and death, brain ischemia (or ischemic brain injury) will be present and detectible [your words, my emphasis]. YOU bear the burden of proof of your argument.

    I did not present a “mishmash of ions, carbon dioxide and calcium channels.” I presented description of commencement and operation of well-known mechanisms of ischemic brain injury. YOU have failed to show my presentation was flawed — if, as you insist, it was flawed. You have not shown even that you know the complete, precise mechanisms of ischemic brain injury that may be caused by occlusion of the carotid artery or the jugular vein. Since you raised the issue, the issue is YOURS to prove, not mine.

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258), I showed that brain ischemia’s sequential mechanisms may not manifest quickly. [Ironically, YOU stated: “…ischemic brain unjury [sic] (in a healthy brain!) occurs after approximately 6 min” (your words, my emphasis).] At this comment’s close are references that, together, support my showing.

    The cops applied their compression-holds for about 8.5 minutes. Floyd fell unconscious 4 to 5 (no more than 6) minutes after the neck-and-dorsal-thorax compression applications began. Floyd became fully limp, quite apparently dead, at some point from one to two minutes after he became unconscious. See the sundry videos of the Floyd-arrest/killing events and also Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D

    The asphyxiation process could not have begun immediately upon initiation of the cops’ application of the neck-compression and dorsal-thorax-compression. The asphyxiation-process may have been complete within 4 or 5 minutes (not more than 6 minutes) from the start of application of compression of the neck and dorsal thorax. See the sundry videos of the Floyd-arrest/killing events and also Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D

    With my presentation of the early mechanics of the process of causation of ischemic brain-tissue-injury, I showed that a likely 4 to 5 minute (even 6-minute) pre-asphyxia time-lapse may have been too brief to permit onset of ischemic brain-tissue-injury.

    Actually, brain-ischemia-causation/ischemic brain-tissue-injury can require notably more than 6 minutes. That causation’s mechanisms (or processes) may (though need not necessarily) involve operations of number or element-details-proliferation greater than I outlined in my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258) — e.g., the following.

    (a) (1) Normal extracellular-milieu-calcium bears a concentration 10,000 times greater than calcium’s intracellular concentration. In normal circumstances, four or more mechanisms maintain that 10,000:1 differential. Four such mechanisms are: (1) ATP-driven membrane pump causes active extrusion of calcium from cells; (2) cell-membrane calcium/sodium exchange driven by intracellular-to-extracellular concentration-differential of Na+ resulting from the cell membranes’ Na+ – K+ pump, (3) ATP-driven process of sequestration of intracellular calcium in endoplasmic reticulum; (4) intracellular calcium-accumulation driven by oxidation-dependent calcium sequestration inside mitochondria.

    (a) (2) High-energy cellular compound loss thence Na+ – K+ gradient loss eliminates three of the four mechanisms of cellular calcium homeostasis. That effect causes massive, rapid calcium-influx into cells. Then mitochondrial sequestration causes calcium overloading of mitochondria and diminished capacity of oxidative phosphorylation. Elevated intracellular Ca++ activates membrane phospholipases and protein kinases.

    One vital consequence is production of free fatty acids [hereinafter “FFA’s”], including the potent prostaglandin inducer, arachidonic acid [hereinafter “AA”]. Phospholipases-caused membrane degradation may (very often does) damage membrane integrity, and that effect reduces further the efficiency of calcium pumping and leads to further calcium overload and failure of regulation of intracellular calcium levels.

    (b) FFAs cause other membrane-degradative effects. FFA-release-produced AA causes biochemical cascade ending with thromboxane and leukotriene production. Both compounds are intense tissue-irritants which can cause platelet-aggregation, clotting, vasospasm, and edema, which can increase the compromising of restoration adequate cerebral perfusion.

    (c)(1) Lactic acidosis also may participate in causation of ischemic-tissue-injury — though lactic acidosis is not a necessary culprit. Lactic acidosis does contribute to the pathophysiology of ischemia. Above threshold level of 18 – 25 micromol/g, lactate can cause irreversible neuronal injury.

    (c)(2) Lactic-acidosis-caused pH decrease may injure and inactivate mitochondria. Lactic acidosis can cause degradation of NADH [which is necessary to ATP synthesis]; and lactic acidosis may also interfere with recovery of ATP levels. Lactic acidosis may increase iron decompartmentalization, thence induce or increase free-radical-mediated injury.

    Those mechanisms’ number and complexity can require notable time to develop and bear detectible tissue-injurious effect. THEREFORE, ischemic-brain-tissue-injury may not occur until passage of more than 6 or 7 minutes.

    Hence, ischemic-brain-tissue-injury may not have occurred in Floyd, because, apparently, Floyd died about 4 or 5 minutes (certainly not more than 6 minutes) after the cops began applying their compression techniques. See the sundry videos of the Floyd-arrest/killing events AND — especially, but not only, at time 14:44 to end — the video presentation of Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified in internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D ].

    The preceding ischemic-brain-tissue-injury-mechanism details do not exhaust the field. But they suffice to show the possibility, even the probability, that detectible-ischemic-brain-injury did NOT occur in Floyd despite Floyd’s death was caused by either or both
    (a) cop-applied neck compression causing carotid artery occlusion (or obstruction)
    (b) cop-applied dorsal thorax compression
    which cop-applied compression(s) caused Floyd to suffer asphyxia producing terminal cardiac arrest.
    Also, if you, RT, would refute that statement of cause of Floyd’s death, you must refute also the opinions of:
    (1) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .
    (2) the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression” [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (3) the Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (4) “The Scalpel,” a long-time Emergency Room physician, see my [See The Scalpel’s comments cited and discussed in my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Pual Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (5) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Pual Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (6) Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    (7) Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    (8) Several state and munipal formal warnings that police must not apply neck-compression holds for more than a minute of a similarly brief time, see, e.g. Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , where, at p.413, the court observed:

    Deputy Grimes put Mr. Booker in a “carotid restraint.” …. According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” …. The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” *** The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” …. [Citations ommitted and one ellipsis added by me, Loup-Bouc]

    (9) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6023692/
    (10) http://charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf
    11) https://www.umc.edu/som/Departments%20and%20Offices/SOM%20Departments/Pediatrics/Di
    visions/Forensic-Medicine/files/investigating_asphyxial_deaths.pdf
    (12) https://forensicmed.webnode.com/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/
    (13) https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/content/dam/sdc/hhsa/programs/phs/EMS/Medical_Director_Report/10-16-18%20Hanging%20Strangulation%20and%20Other%20Dr.%20Campman.pdf
    (14) https://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html
    AND the refererences listed at this comment’s close.

    ============

    YOUR burden, RT, is to prove the contrary of my preceding presentation’s indication that likely Floyd did not suffer detectible ischemic-brain-tissue-injury despite the cause-of-death was police-tactics-induced asphyxiation leading to cardiac arrest. Your proof-burden includes, necessarily, the burden of proving that in EVERY case of asphyxia caused by carotid artery, jugular vein, or dorsal thorax compression, a detectible, ischemic brain-tissue-injury MUST have occurred.

    Your proof must include citations of actually scientific, valid, reliable medical or biochemical/physiological sources — not bullshit like the crap you have been tossing, or empty arrogance, like your Olympic-god-like pronouncement that I, Loup-Bouc, “wrote a [sic] gibberish” or a “mishmash of ions, carbon dioxide and calcium channels.” If you would repeat such assertions, prove them, with scientific detail supported by valid, reliable source-references that present testable science.

    Otherwise, your original detectible-ischemic-brain-injury assertion will be exposed for quite the bullshit I said it is.

    ============

    Above, I promised I would list references that — together — support my outline of the mechanisms of ischemic-brain-injury causation.

    COMPARE the following listed sources — and you must COMPARE all of the below-listed sources, since no single source presents the entirety, or the entire interrelation, of the sundry mechanisms of ischemic-brain-injury causation. [I listed the sources alphabetically, for convenience; but such listing-order does not track the order of relevance.]

    * Ames A III, et al. Cerebral ischemia II. The no-reflow phenomenon. Amer J Pathol 1968;52:437-53.
    *Biros MH, Dimlich RW, Barsan WG. Post-insult treatment of ischemia-induced cerebral lactic acidosis in the rat. Ann Emerg Med 1985;15:397-404.
    * Blaustein MP, Ratzlaff R, Kendrick N. The regulation of intracellular calcium in presynaptic nerve terminals. Proc NY Acad Sci 1978;307:195-212.
    * Carafoli E, Crompton M. Curr Topics Memb Transport 1978;10:151-216.
    *Farber JL, Chien KR, Mittnacht S. The pathogenesis of irreversible cell injury in ischemia. Amer J Pathol 1981;102:271-81.
    * Hertz L. Features of astrocyte function apparently involved in the response of central nervous tissue to ischemia-hypoxia. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1981;1:143-53.
    * Heuser D, Guggenberger H. Ionic changes in brain ischemia and alterations produced by drugs. Br J Anesth 1985;57:23.
    * Kalimo H, Rhencrona S, Soderfeldt, et al. Brain lactic acidosis and ischemic cell damage: Histopathology. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1981;1:313-27.
    *Kaplan J, Dimlich RVW, Biros MH, Hesges J. Mechanisms of Ischemic cerebral injury. Resuscitation 1987;15:149-169.
    * Lowry OH, Passonneau JV, Rock MK. The stability of pyridine nucleotides. J Bio Chem 1961;236:2756-59.
    * Mitchell P, Moyle J. Chemiosmotic hypothesis of oxidative phosphorylation. Nature 1967;213:137-139.
    * Mullane KM, Salmon JA, Kraemer R. Leukocyte derived metabolites of arachidonic acid in ischemia-induced myocardial injury. Fed Proc 1987;46:2422-33.
    * Raichle ME. The pathophysiology of brain ischemia. Ann Neurol 1983;13:2-10.
    * Reichelt KL. The chemical basis for the intolerance of the brain to anoxia. Acta Anesthesiol Scand 1978; Suppl. 29:35-46.
    * Rhenchrona S. Brain acidosis. Ann Emerg Med 1985;14:770-76.
    * Rhenchrona S, Rosen I, Siesjo B. Brain lactic acidosis and ischemic cell damage: I. Biochemistry and neurophysiology. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1981;1:297-311.
    * Rhencrona S, Rosen I, Smith ML. Effect of different degrees of brain ischemia and tissue lactic acidosis on the short-term recovery of neurophysiologic and metabolic variables. Exp Neurol 1985:87:458-73.
    * Siesjo BK, Bendek G, Koide T, et al. Influence of acidosis on lipid peroxidation of brain tissues in vitro. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1985;5:253-58.
    *Siesjo BK. Cell damage in the brain: a speculative synthesis. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1981;1:155-85.
    * White BC, Wiegenstein JG, Winegar CD. Brain ischemia and anoxia: Mechanisms of injury. J Amer Med Assoc 1984;251:1586-90.
    * Wolfe LS. Eicosanoids: prostaglandins, thromboxanes, leukotrienes and other derivatives of carbon-20 unsaturated fatty acids. J Neurochem 1982;38:1-14.

  258. @Loup-Bouc

    Wolf-Goat says,

    Now shut up, moron-racist-fool-liar-scumbag-fraud.

    Awesome. This stream of invective is the best form of rhetoric to be learned from spending a dozen years studying law and medicine?
    I will admit my remark about IQ of zero (on subjects one is prejudiced about) was not a compliment, but it bears reflection.
    When you get an answer wrong on a test, your score on the missed question is of course zero.
    However, your general IQ is greater than zero.
    Therefore, we can conclude that prejudice, emotion, ignorance and other errors that cloud our thinking have an IQ coefficient of zero.
    Whatever your general IQ is, multiply it by zero to get your score on a question you have a closed mind about.
    This is true no matter how much verbiage your general IQ is producing, it is all for nought when employed in service of the prejudice which still leads you to the wrong answer.

    Now to your legal precedent. First of all, know that the kneehold approved by the MPD at the time and applied by Chauvin is not a carotid restraint. It does not block the flow of blood in the carotid artery. Chan et al have shown it does not decrease airflow by more than 5%. You should know all this already, if your memory filters aren’t completely clogged, as we have been over this in the comments to my article, https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/?showcomments . (You would also have noted that I shredded the tenuous absurdities of “The Scalpel” there, if you were not so preoccupied with churning out endless and pointless ad hoc arguments.)

    The MPD knee hold was not applied in the Gomez-Booker case you cite. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q
    The complaints there include a 2 minute chokehold, a Taser, along with other forms of submission including “Deputy Robinette put his knee on Mr. Booker’s back, applying 50 to 75 percent of his total body weight of approximately 190 pounds”. That much weight on the diaphragm might impair breathing.

    It seems that if a lawyer and doctor can only snatch at this one straw, which isn’t even remotely equivalent to the Chauvin-Floyd case, it is just one more exhibit confirming my original sense that the cause of death was drug overdose, the kneehold was irrelevant, and the Minneapolis policemen have been unjustly charged with homicide.

    Floyd was treated much more humanely than Tony Timpa, let alone Booker. And I had concluded all this long before the transcripts about the police trying to give him CPR were made public.

    Of course CPR didn’t work, because cardiopulmonary arrest from a fentanyl overdose appears to be irreversible. Evidently, victims must receive naloxone before the blood stops circulating, or they can’t be resuscitated. On arrival the ER tried to resuscitate Floyd for half an hour, in vain. If it had been death by strangulation, he would likely have responded. But fentanyl had “strangled” him in the brain, as it were, and there is no remedy available for that. In any case, after combing all the literature on fentanyl overdoses, I didn’t come across any case of resuscitation after cardiopulmonary arrest. I saw one case of pulmonary arrest under fentanyl anesthesia, where they put the comatose patient on a ventilator, but I don’t think there was cardiac arrest. If anyone wants to research this further, it could be useful.

    The score remains: 70000 per year for Overdose, All-time Zero for Kneehold.
    Zero cases, zero case law too.

  259. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    I have debunked all your bullshit many, many times. Your current bullshit presents nothing new, just more of the same ignorant, inexpert, oft-fraudulent, much-misconceived crap. I shall not bother myself by replying again further than I shall below.

    Here is just one example of many apparent in my many comments trashing your moronic tripe, an example of my anticipating, and trashing, in advance, the following one of your issuances of toxic crap:

    The MPD knee hold was not applied in the Gomez-Booker case you cite. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q
    The complaints there include a 2 minute chokehold, a Taser, along with other forms of submission including “Deputy Robinette put his knee on Mr. Booker’s back, applying 50 to 75 percent of his total body weight of approximately 190 pounds”. That much weight on the diaphragm might impair breathing.

    See my comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254), which trashed your above-quoted non-point. See also numerous of my other comments that anticipate and debunk the same kind of crap you spew.

    [MORE]

    Also, in the Booker case, the taser was nothing compared with the Floyd’s case dorsal thorax compression that one or two cops applied simultaneously with Chauvin’s neck-compression knee-press.

    Also, in Booker, the choke hold lasted 6.45 minutes less than the knee-press neck-compression in Floyd’s case.

    And Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression was several orders of magnitude more lethal than the neck-hold that occurred in the Booker case, as I explained in my comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254). See also my comment of June 10, 2020 at 9:48 pm GMT (comment # 470) posted under Fred Reed’s 7 June 2020 Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments#comments

    And see also, in THIS thread, e.g., my comment of July 21, 2020 at 6:15 pm GMT (comment # 244), which is one of others of my comments showing further that the Floyd case neck-compression and dorsal thorax compression were far worse, more lethal, than the entire panoply of wrongful acts that the cops committed in the Booker case.

    You have zero knowledge of the pertinent medical and legal considerations that make Floyd’s death a murder committed by Chauvin and the cops who arrested and detained Floyd. Your assertions clash hopelessly with all the pertinent medical and legal considerations.

    Shut the hell up, you poisonous idiot.

    You begin your latest tripe-display with this: “This stream of invective is the best form of rhetoric.” You are so toxic that you deserve nothing but the harshest kind of invective. I reserve my courteous rebuttals for those who present earnest, arguably legitimate arguments premised on at least SOMETHING respectable.

    Vanish, snake.

  260. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    In my comment of July 25, 2020 at 4:39 am GMT (comment # 264), I neglected to remind you of my having trashed, brutally, to death, your absurdly statistics-ignorant and abysimally stupid mantra of “70000 per year…Overdose.” See my comment of July 23, 2020 at 6:47 pm GMT (comment # 256).

    You are darkly amazing — one way. You do not die a shattered freak struck by blades of self-loathing, though you see your horrid image in mirrors and sometimes witness your poisonous soul.

  261. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Now possessing spare time enough to complete the trashing of your most recent emission of toxic dreck [your comment of July 25, 2020 at 3:32 am GMT (comment # 263)], I shall supplement my comments of July 25, 2020 at 4:39 am GMT (comment # 264) and July 25, 2020 at 5:52 am GMT (comment # 265). But, I do not possess spare time enough to enable me to proofread the following text. So, it may bear typing errors. If so, so be it.

    Of the essential flaws of your idiotic, ignorant blather, one is that your utter lack of medical education “permits” you to assume that somehow (impossible) a knee-press neck-compression (like Chauvin’s of Floyd’s neck) may not cause lethal occlusion of a carotid artery, a jugular vein, or both — despite a far-less-intense arm-press neck-compression or some other neck-compression has been lethal OFTEN.

    I shall start with lethal neck-compression generally. In my comment of July 23, 2020 at 9:13 am GMT (comment # 254), I wrote:

    Cops have killed a notable number of civilians (especially Blacks) with carotid-artery/jugular-vein neck-compressions. Just in year 1980 Los Angeles, California, a city where Black males constituted 9% of the population, Black males accounted for 75% of the 16 deaths resulting from cop-use of choke-holds.
    See Los Angeles v. Lyons, 461 US 95 (1983), Dissent of Justices Marshall, Brennan, Blackmun, and Stevens, at footnote 3 of that Dissent,
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4587981977816900853&q=Los+Angeles+v.+Lyons,+461+US+95&hl=en&as_sdt=6

    In that same comment, I wrote:

    [MORE]

    …[I]n Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , the victim was lying prone, front-down (on his chest and abdomen) when the carotid-artery/jugular-vein obstructing neck-compression hold was applied to him — so that the culprit cop had to exert pressure on the carotid and jugular vessels by pulling sideways and squeezing with his arm, NOT by squeezing with his arm and applying his body-mass, hence force of gravity.
    Therefore, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, the applied force was markedly less than the force Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd’s neck with his (Chauvin’s) knee-press choke-hold that applied not only Chauvin’s leg-muscle-source pressure-exertion, but also Chauvin’s body mass, hence force-of-gravity.

    You have not rebutted those observations. No one can — at least not legitimately, with SCIENCE, meaning reliable scientific conclusions (conclusions indicated, logically, per valid, reliable evidence). And science is anathema to your sociopathic-racist psyche and desperately weak ego.

    In the comments-thread set under Fred Reed’s Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments , “The Scalper” posted a number of comments pertinent here. [The Scalpel is a long-time Emergency Room physician.] In one comment, he included a link that supplies the FACT that in Minneapolis alone, in 44 cases of a total of about 200 neck restraint incidents, suspects have lost consciousness. The comment The Scalpel’s of June 10, 2020 at 1:29 am GMT (comment # 392). The link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title

    That FACT is vitally critical here, because
    (a) for some years, many, most, or all Minneapolis neck-restrains have been exactly the kind Chauvin applied to Floyd;
    (b) when a person is rendered unconscious by occlusion (obstruction) of a carotid artery, a jugular vein, or both, very likely that person will die by asphyxiation within 2 minutes after commencement of unconsciousness, and Officer Chauvin applied his knee-press neck-compression hold on a side of Floyd’s neck (situs of carotid artery and jugular vein) for more than 3 minutes (about 3.4 minutes) after, beyond all doubt, Floyd had fallen unconscious under Chauvin’s knee-and-shin.

    RE: the onset of Floyd’s unconsciousness vis-a-vis Chauvin’s carotid artery or jugular vein occluding choke hold, see below (in this comment) and see the video presentation of Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert) — especially, BUT NOT ONLY, time 13:45 through end of same video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D

    In his comment of June 10, 2020 at 12:48 pm GMT (comment # 434) — posted under the same Fred Reed article), The Scalpel wrote:

    The Los Angeles Police Commission severely restricted its use in 1982 after the deaths of a dozen black men and then-LAPD Chief Daryl Gates’ notorious comment that African Americans were dying because the “veins or arteries of blacks do not open up as fast as they do in normal people.”

    The Scalpel cited: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-05/george-floyd-carotid-neck-hold-police

    The Scalpel cited also https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/06/02/police-departments-nationwide-ban-use-deadly-neck-restraint/3125464001/ , which pertains to San Diego, AND https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-mexico-cop-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-after-man-in-custody-dies-in-neck-restraint/ , which pertains to New Mexico, AND https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/george-floyd-knee-neck-1.5600126 , which pertains to Toronto.

    And The Scalpel observed: “This [neck-restraint-caused death ]is so common that there is a Law Firm that specializes in it and lists case after case of fatalities from it” — for which observation, The Scalpel cited https://www.lvcriminaldefense.com/neck-restraint-proves-fatal-yet/

    Back to the matter of how long after carotid artery or jugular vein occlusion caused unconsciousness may the victim live — how long before he will die. In his comment of June 10, 2020 at 10:06 pm GMT (comment # 472) (of the same Fred Reed article), The Scalpel (who is, recall, a long-time Emergency Room physician) stated: “Let me reassure you, if you choke someone to the point they pass out, they could be mere seconds from death. Certainly not more than a minute or two. The brain does not tolerate hypoxia well.”

    Now, some detailed scientific support of The Scalpel’s, Dr. Michael Hansen’s (supra), and my TRUE assertion that a victim man live at most 2 minutes after falling unconscious because of occlusion of a carotid artery, a jugular vein, or both:

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258), I observed: “In condition of normothermia, within 20 seconds of cranial blood flow interruption, the brain’s electrical activity may begin to disappear.” That observation is supported by extensive medical knowledge presented in many medical journals and related science journals, which I referenced at the close of my comment of July 24, 2020 at 11:00 pm GMT (comment # 262). That electrical energy diminution associates with, partially causes, unconsciousness produced by occlusion of carotid artery blood-flow. See my same two comments referenced in THIS paragraph.

    In the earlier of those two comments, I observed also:

    Often (but not always) within 5 minutes, high-energy phosphate levels may have nearly disappeared — thus ATP depletion. Serious cell-electrolyte-balance-disturbance may begin.

    That ATP-depletion/cell-electrolyte-balance-disturbance eventuality associates with, partly causes, onset of unconsciousness.

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258), I observed further that other pathological events will occur — and lead to death if no heroic life-saving measure intervenes very expeditiously.

    The other events involve, e.g., pathologic alterations of calcium, sodium, and phosphorous distributions/exchanges and eventual consequent mitochondrial sequestration, thence calcium-overloading of mitochondria and diminished oxidative-phosphorylation-capacity. Elevated intracellular Ca++ will activate membrane phospholipases and protein kinases, thence production of free fatty acids [herinafter “FFA’s”], thence membrane-degradation caused by phospholipases and advanced reduction of calcium-pumping efficiency, which produces further calcium-overload and intracellular calcium-regulation-failure, which occurs during an ischemic episode. And, most often, FFAs bear other cell-membrane-degrading effects.

    Those observations are supported by extensive medical knowledge presented in many medical journals and related science journals, which I referenced at the close of my comment of July 24, 2020 at 11:00 pm GMT (comment # 262).

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 11:00 pm GMT (comment # 262), with support of extensive medical knowledge presented in many medical journals and related science journals, I outlined more of the biochemical/physiological mechanisms that cause and exacerbate brain ischemia and, accordingly or relatedly, cause death by asphyxiation leading to cardiac arrest. Rather than reproduce, here, all of the biochemical/physiological details I set in my comment of July 24, 2020 at 11:00 pm GMT (comment # 262) — details of the death-causing mechanisms produced by carotid-artery-or jugular-vein-occlusion-caused hypoxia or hypercapnia of the brain — here I shall stress the most vital implication of that comment’s outline:

    The cops applied their compression-holds for about 8.5 minutes. Floyd fell unconscious 4 to 5 (no more than 6) minutes after the neck-and-dorsal-thorax compression applications began. Floyd became fully limp, quite apparently dead, at some point from one to two minutes after he became unconscious. See the sundry videos of the Floyd-arrest/killing events and also Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D

    The asphyxiation process could not have begun immediately upon initiation of the cops’ application of the neck-compression and dorsal-thorax-compression. The asphyxiation-process may have been complete within 4 or 5 minutes (not more than 6 minutes) from the start of application of compression of the neck and dorsal thorax.

    Now compare this quote of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , where, at p.413, the court observed:

    According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” …. The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” *** The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” …. [Citations ommitted and emphasis and one ellipsis added by me, Loup-Bouc]

    I refer back to observations I put near the beginning of this comment:

    …[I]n Estate of Booker v. Gomez , 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , the victim was lying prone, front-down (on his chest and abdomen) when the carotid-artery/jugular-vein obstructing neck-compression hold was applied to him — so that the culprit cop had to exert pressure on the carotid and jugular vessels by pulling sideways and squeezing with his arm, NOT by squeezing with his arm and applying his body-mass, hence force of gravity.

    Therefore, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez , the applied force was markedly less than the force Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd’s neck with his (Chauvin’s) knee-press choke-hold that applied not only Chauvin’s leg-muscle-source pressure-exertion, but also Chauvin’s body mass, hence force-of-gravity.

    All the EXPERTS who have addressed Floyd’s case — and all the pertinent medical and biochemical/physiological expert literature — make CLEAR that the matter is NOT whether an arm, a leg, a knee, a shin, a belt, a garrote, or anything else occludes the carotid artery, jugular vein, or both. The matter is simply whether the carotid artery, jugular vein, or both suffered brain hypoxia-or-brain-hypercapnia-causing occlusion for circa 2 minutes after the victim fell unconscious.

    Very little side-of-neck pressure is needed to cause such effect. I — or any normal person — could accomplish such pressure with one finger, even a little finger of one hand. Quite so, because Officer Chauvin (likely about 185 pounds) applied for about 8.45 minutes his knee-press neck-compression hold to Floyd’s neck, Floyd’s death was a CERTAINTY — even more so than if, instead, Chauvin used for just circa 2 minutes the forearm-pressure neck-compression technique used, for circa 2 minutes, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez .

    See also my comment of June 10, 2020 at 9:48 pm GMT (comment # 470) posted under the above referenced Fred Reed article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments

    I assure you that, in the criminal trial of Officer Chauvin and the other culprit cops of Floyd’s case, after the state of Minnesota presents to the court all the available evidence (or just the evidence I, FB, and The Scalpel adduced here or under other Unz Review articles), the prosecution will survive the dismissal-motions the cops’ defense-attorneys will submit and the case will reach the jury.

    Surely, if at least one juror is an ignorant, truth-blind, slimebag racist like you, the jury could be hung, and the prosecution would need to determine whether to re-try the culprit cops. But, if the state’s Attorney General, the local DA, and the actual prosecutor are not dunces, they ought to be able to bargain the culprit cops to plead guilty to 1st degree manslaughter charges.

    Now, truth-blind, slimebag, racism-biased, weak-egoed venomous snake, shut the hell up, forever.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  262. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    In my comment of July 26, 2020 at 2:34 am GMT (comment # 266), on the second line of the language quoted immediately below, the word “man” is a typing error. The word ought to be “may.”

    Now, some detailed scientific support of The Scalpel’s, Dr. Michael Hansen’s (supra), and my TRUE assertion that a victim man live at most 2 minutes after falling unconscious because of occlusion of a carotid artery, a jugular vein, or both:

    Therefore, that same (now above-quoted) language ought to be:

    Now, some detailed scientific support of The Scalpel’s, Dr. Michael Hansen’s (supra), and my TRUE assertion that a victim may live at most 2 minutes after falling unconscious because of occlusion of a carotid artery, a jugular vein, or both:

  263. I wrote

    no matter how much verbiage your general IQ is producing, it is all for nought when employed in service of the prejudice which still leads you to the wrong answer.

    I just came across a nicer way of putting it:

    “The nature of mind is like water: if you do not disturb it, it will become clear.”

    (Sherpa saying, quoted by Erik Weihenmayer in a Cultural Crossroads interview
    https://www.facebook.com/IdriesShah/posts/idries-shah-foundation-podcast-practical-psychology-for-today-cc2-cultural-cross/2105827342804294/ )

    In this case research has made it clear to the thinking mind that the cause of death was fentanyl and heroin. Preconceptions about police brutality, whipped up by Soros-financed color revolution tactics, disturb this clarity.
    If you are a lawyer you should know the weaknesses of eyewitness evidence. A guy is saying “I can’t breathe” with cops holding him down, and people make the connection of causality between the two things. It seems clear to them.
    In fact the fentanyl overdose causes both the fatal breathing difficulty and the delirium which gives rise to the need for restraint.

    I repeat, the kneehold approved by the MPD is not a carotid restraint. Your arteries are not on the side of the neck, but more towards the front. It doesn’t take much pressure to block the arteries, but it must be applied accurately, as they are narrow. An elbow hold around the front of the neck is used for carotid restraint, to cause fainting.

    I get tired of repeating myself for an audience of one hysterical non-listener.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  264. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Your arteries are not on the side of the neck, but more towards the front.

    Your false anatomy-assertion is another of your contemnable errors issued from your racist idiocy.

    The carotid arteries are at the sides of the neck:
    * https://ranzcrpart1.fandom.com/wiki/Carotid_sheath:Internal_carotid_artery
    ** https://www.pinterest.com/pin/758645499707301013/

    Again you merely vomit toxic dreck that cannot be supported by science or clear anatomical fact, because it is vomitous toxic dreck.

    [MORE]

    You have not answered ANY of the scientific proofs I have put in my comments replying to your comments — reply-comments responding directly to your comments or indirectly by my citing (when I reply to you) my comments replying to commenters other than you.

    Science is anathema to your manifest toxic racist idiology.

    Your Sherpa “saying” is not only stupid and irrelevant, but, whatever the possible issue, it cannot substitute for science or logic or actual valid, reliable evidence or scientifically or otherwise-logico-rational-defensible assertions of fact.

    Your fentanyl crap has been debunked by ALL the medical experts who have addressed the matter. Beyond those I have referenced previously in my comments replying to yours — in THIS thread and in the thread set under your absurd article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?, https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ — see also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=xRoqSyIi-98&feature=emb_title

    the kneehold approved by the MPD is not a carotid restraint

    You are expert at immorally-designed visual and intellectual blindness and immoral assertions of utterly blatant falsehood; and THAT is your ONLY expertise.

    In EVERY video of Chauvin’s knee-press applied to Floyd, anyone NOT morally blind must see that Chauvin’s knee and shin are pressing on exactly where Floyd’s jugular vein and carotid arteries are located. And anyone possessing moral integrity must agree that, with the force his leg muscles exerted and with the gravitational force of his body’s mass, Chauvin applied severe occlusory pressure to Floyd’s carotid arteries and jugular vein. [Like the carotid arteries, the jugular veins are located at the sides of the neck:
    * https://healthjade.net/jugular-vein/
    * https://www.pinterest.com/pin/832673418582495072/
    * https://bodytomy.com/internal-jugular-vein-diagram-functions ]

    Because of at least your abysmal medicine-ignorance, general idiocy, and racism-engendered blindness, you have not addressed the reality that, just as Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression caused asphyxiation-produced cardiac arrest by causing brain hypoxia and consequent lethal biochemical/physiological events, Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression caused Floyd’s death by occluding Floyd’s jugular vein and, hence, causing brain-hypercapnia, thence asphyxiation producing cardiac arrest.

    Again, your crap has been refuted by the opinion of EVERY medical expert who has addressed the matter.

    Preconceptions about police brutality, whipped up by Soros-financed color revolution tactics, disturb this clarity.
    ***
    A guy is saying “I can’t breathe” with cops holding him down, and people make the connection of causality between the two things. It seems clear to them.

    “Soros-financed color revolution…”? Why not trot out Snowwhite and the Seven Dwarves and The Big Bad Wolf and the Three Little Pigs.

    Soros did not create the CLEAR evidence and the CLEAR law that indicate, irrefutably, that exactly your “’I can’t breathe’ with cops holding him down” observation is part of the reason why Chauvin and at least one other cop are guilty of “depraved mind” murder and felony murder. Soros’s politics, his political activities, and those activities’ political or other effects — and even Soros’s existence — carry ZERO bearing respecting the matter that the clear evidence and the clear law indicate, clearly, that the cops murdered Floyd.

    You have not ever even BEGUN to answer — for, you CANNOT ANSWER — my oft-presented legal arguments that show Chauvin and at least one other cop murdered Floyd: I mean my evidence-analyses and related statute-and-judicial-decision-supported arguments that involve the eggshell skull rule, foreseeability of homicidal harm, and depraved-disregard-caused “enhancement” of such homicidal-harm foreseeability.

    Just as you are ignorant of, or designedly blind to, the medical considerations that show homicide, you are ignorant of, or designedly blind to, the pertinent law.

    You are the most contemnable wretch I have encountered in years — not because of your moronic, prevarication-dependent racism (which is common to many Unz Review authors and commenters), but because of your transparent, disgusting pretense of pseudo-polite acid sophistication. Pond scum is superior to you, a poisonous racist snake.

    Oh, my Big Bad Wolf allusion reminds me that you cannot even blunder your way to a single, simple translation of the two French terms that constitute my pseudonym, Loup-Bouc. In your comment of July 25, 2020 at 3:32 am GMT (comment # 263), your first words were “Wolf-Goat says.” Loup-Bouc does NOT translate as Wolf-Goat. It translates as Male-Wolf-Male-Goat.

    The French language distinguishes male wolf from female wolf and male goat from female goat. Female wolf is “louve,” and female goat is “chèvre.”

    Some illiterates or semi-illiterates (like Google Translator) insist on the stupidly redundant “chèvre femelle,” which translates as “female female goat,” since “chèvre” means female goat.” Alors, “ce bouc est beau”, mais “cette chèvre est belle”. But YOUR illiteracy is worse, because it derives from pretense of being conversant with la plus belle langue.

  265. Tusk says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    Allow ME to apply to YOU the kind of neck-restraint Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd. After about 3 minutes, you will feel your life threatened; and it WILL BE THREATENED

    You can apply the neck restraint for a week if you want. As a healthy individual it’s not going to affect me at all.

  266. Thanks for the drawing showing the position of the arteries.
    One problem is that it’s only 2 dimensional. The arteries are inside the neck, not near the surface. They are recessed under the jaw, are not exposed to pressure from the side, which only impacts the more exposed, muscular and bony part of the neck, situated more towards the back than the throat and the arteries.
    One can confirm this immediately by pressing one’s own fist against the side of the neck. It presses against muscle and bone, and hurts if you press hard enough, but without any effect on blood flow or air flow.
    That’s why the kneehold (with minimum necessary pressure) was still approved MPD policy when Floyd was arrested.
    Also, the drawing you have selected is a side view — so it shows the arteries at the side. In a frontal view then one sees the arteries at the front. In fact, they are situated at about 45 degrees between side and front — but I don’t see them coming near the surface, so your statement that “The carotid arteries are at the sides of the neck” seems inaccurate. They are inside the neck, near the trachea.
    I’m looking at an image here, which shows the arteries both from the front and in cross section elevation, so you can see how recessed they are behind other tissue. http://www.medicalexhibits.com/medical_exhibits_image.php?exhibit=13069_03X
    This image has a copyright warning on it, anyway I don’t see how to embed an image in a post here.
    Here is a link to a Youtube which gives several anatomical views of the carotid arteries.

    “Common carotid Artery Anatomy – Origin , Course , Relations , Branches , Clinical anatomy – USMLE”
    1:35 – 2:05 Side view showing how the arteries hug the spinal column as they go up into the head. Image showing anterior view. “The carotid artery divides into an external and internal carotid artery… The artery is deeply situated and it is covered by the Sternodeidomastoid.” That is a large muscle on the surface of the neck, running from the collar bone to behind the ear; it’s the muscle your fist is pushing on. (It rotates the head and flexes the neck.)
    You can see in this videoclip that the carotid is not close to the surface.
    Nonetheless, it’s still possible to block the arterial flow with an elbow chokehold, but not with a knee on the side. Anatomy is tricky like that, you have to touch the right point, as anyone who has tried to carve a roast bird knows.
    Of course, those who don’t want to get this never will.

  267. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    I lack enough spare time to proofread this comment. It may bear typing errors. If so, so be it. Also, my professional responsibilities may preclude my responding to any comments you may post after your comment to which this comment replies. My future silence shall not imply my conceding any future arguments you post. And TAKE NOTICE: This comment incorporates, by reference, ALL of my comments of July 26, 2020 at 2:34 am GMT (comment # 266), of July 26, 2020 at 3:58 am GMT (comment # 267), and of July 26, 2020 at 11:54 pm GMT (comment # 269), AND ALSO all of my other comments referenced below in this comment.

    You can see in this videoclip that the carotid is not close to the surface.
    Nonetheless, it’s still possible to block the arterial flow with an elbow chokehold, but not with a knee on the side.

    You reference a video that is gravely misleading during its first segment, because it presents a frontal view that seems to suggest that the carotid arteries and jugular veins run at or near the front of the neck. But, starting at about 1:27, the video shows that actual locations of the carotid arteries and jugular veins — their locations AT THE SIDES OF THE NECK, NOT AT OR NEAR THE NECK’S FRONT.

    That video does not bear any showing that supports your false assertion that Officer Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression did not “block the arterial flow.” Also, “arterial flow” is medically incompetent language: a one-side view of the human head shows 17 arteries. See the images I included in my comment of July 26, 2020 at 11:54 pm GMT (comment # 269).

    As I have stated several times, I am a physician, have been since 1998. (I mean that I completed my internship and residency mid-1998, and began solo practice in 1998. For three years earlier, I was in residency.) I do not see what you hallucinate, with your warped vision of the anatomy — what you hallucinate so your racism can “see” what it desires to convince your psychopathic racist self and your fellow racists that Floyd’s murder was not murder.

    Like the Medical Examiner and ALL the other medical experts who have viewed the videos of Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression, I see that Chauvin DID occlude Floyd’s carotid arteries and jugular veins of one side of Floyd’s neck and that such compression
    (a) obstructed blood flow to Floyd’s brain and caused his brain to suffer hypoxia and
    (b) obstructed venous return-blood-flow from Floyd’s brain to his lungs and caused brain-hypercapnia and
    (c) thence caused asphyxiation that produced cardiac arrest.
    [At least one other cop’s dorsal thorax compression participated in the killing of Floyd. I have shown so in more than a few other comments. Since, in your comment to which this comment replies, you do not address the dorsal thorax compression matter, I shall not address the dorsal thorax compression’s involvement in this comment.]

    [MORE]

    In my comment of July 24, 2020 at 12:11 am GMT (comment # 258) [hereinafter “comment 258″]and in my comment of July 24, 2020 at 11:00 pm GMT (comment # 262) [hereinafter “comment 262″], I debated RT, who claimed to be a physician. With those two comments, I showed my expertise respecting such biochemical/physiological matters. I challenged RT to dispute my presentation, which showed that RT stated falsehood with his assertion that “Compression of cervical vessels of a degree to cause death WILL leave detectable ischemic injuries to the brain.” [Rt’s exact word, my emphasis of his word “will.”]

    RT’s assertion was that in every case of “Compression of cervical vessels of a degree to cause death,” “detectable ischemic [brain] injuries” will have occurred. RT’s assertion was false.

    In my comments 258 and 262 (replying to RT), I presented detailed, medically expert presentations of the biochemistry/physiology of the onset and progression of ischemic effects of compression of the cervical vessels. My presentation did not only present an extensively detailed medically expert exposition of the onset and progression of ischemic effects of compression of the cervical vessels. It referenced 21 scholarly medical articles the contents and conclusions of which comport with my exposition.

    My presentation showed that RT’s assertion was false. RT has not responded, because he cannot respond, because his assertion was false. So, as I observed in one of my earlier comments, either RT is not a physician or his license ought to be revoked.

    Still, RT’s assertion would not alter the case even if it were true: (a) Nothing indicates that Floyd did not suffer ischemic brain-injury. (b) Since (for reasons my above-cited comments showed, conclusively) ischemic brain injury is NOT NECESSARY to occurrence of fatal occlusion of the cervical vessels, ischemic brain-injury absence cannot diminish the case that the cops murdered Floyd.

    You engage in wishful hallucination (or racism-driven patent falsehood) with your assertions (a) that Chauvin could not “block…arterial flow with a knee on the side” because “the carotid is not close to the surface” but that “it’s still possible to block the arterial flow with an elbow chokehold” and (b) that the carotid arteries are “recessed under the jaw, are not exposed to pressure from the side, which only impacts the more exposed, muscular and bony part of the neck, situated more towards the back than the throat and the arteries.”

    The jaw does NOT block side-of-neck knee, shin, forearm, or upper-arm compression of the carotid arteries. The carotid arteries are compression-accessible from about one inch below the jaw to immediately above the clavicle. In Estate of Booker v. Gomez , 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , a side-of-neck-applied forearm-effected-compression choke-hold killed the victim — NOT an “elbow shocke-hold.

    An ELBOW choke-hold is LESS likely to accomplish lethal compression of carotid arteries. The forearm and upper-arm muscle-masses will obstruct, at least partly, the elbow-arch’s inside from contacting the neck’s side-area involving the carotid arteries.

    A knee-press/shin-press (like Chauvin’s) can compress very excessively the carotid arteries, because, upon application of the knee-press, the involved neck-span will be “enlarged, byut the knee-press’s pushing the jaw upward and away.

    Also, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez, the victim was lying prone, front-down (on his chest and abdomen) when the carotid-artery/jugular-vein obstructing neck-compression hold was applied to him. So the culprit cop had to exert pressure on the carotid and jugular vessels by pulling sideways, and upward, AGAINST the force of gravity, and squeezing with his arm. The culprit cop could NOT squeeze with his arm AND apply his arm-structure and body-mass downward to enhance compression with force of gravity.

    Therefore, in Estate of Booker v. Gomez , the applied force was markedly less than the force Officer Chauvin applied to Floyd’s neck with his (Chauvin’s) knee-press choke-hold that applied not only Chauvin’s leg-muscle-source pressure-exertion, but also Chauvin’s body mass, hence force-of-gravity.

    See also my comment of June 10, 2020 at 9:48 pm GMT (comment # 470) posted under the above referenced Fred Reed article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments
    I hold an Aikido black belt. During training, I was required to defend against various choke-holds — as was every student taught in the dojo where I earned my black belt. In the immediately-above-cited comment, I discuss the physics of various choke holds, and I report that in a few cases of use of a knee-press choke hold, a student had to be rushed to an Emergency Room because the student appeared to be suffering asphyxia.

    I am also a lawyer and low professor — lawyer since 1968, assistant professor of law from 1972 to 1976, tenured professor of law in 1976, tenured full professor of law from 1978 until the present. My arguments win the U.S. Supreme Court, the federal appellate courts, the federal district courts, and state supreme courts and other state appellate courts and state trial courts. My published law-scholarship (books, law review articles, delivered, published formal papers) enjoy wide respect and influence among courts, jurists, and lawyers.

    In quite enough comments of this thread and of the thread set under your (contemnible) Unz Review article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?, https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ , I showed that Chauvin and at least one other cop killed Floyd and that the killing was “depraved mind” 3rf degree murder and felony murder (the predicate felonious offense of which was felony assault or felony civil rights violation, 18 U.S. Code §242, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/242 — or both of those predicate offenses).

    In more than a few comments of the two above-cited threads, I showed that the Floyd homicide’s 3rd degree murder form involved (a) “depraved mind” disregard of the foreseeability that the cops’ compression holds would kill Floyd, (b) the eggshell skull rule, and (c) the fact that Chauvin’s “depraved mind” disregard of that foreseeability “enhjanced” that foreseeeability.

    Again, you post a comment that clashes with the opinions of ALL the medical experts — including the Hennepin County Medical Examiner — who have addressed Floyd’s case.
    (1) Positional Asphyxia-Sudden Death, National Institute of Justice Program, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice (June 1995),
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ylGj-3k7BXhz5s3JdwfKxWXlK3kW2TltokyHr47d_y9k408vMt2t0LAw .
    (2) the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression” [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (3) the Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (4) “The Scalpel,” a long-time Emergency Room physician, see my [See The Scalpel’s comments cited and discussed in my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under John-Pual Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (5) Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under your article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (6) Dr. Michael Hansen (board certified internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonary disease medicine expert), https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    (7) Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    (8) Opinnon of Dr. Bernard,

    Also pertinent:
    (1) Several state and munipal formal warnings that police must not apply neck-compression holds for more than a minute of a similarly brief time, see, e.g. Estate of Booker v. Gomez, 745 F. 3d 405 (10th Circuit 2014), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5929342124076407343&q , where, at p.413, the court observed:

    Deputy Grimes put Mr. Booker in a “carotid restraint.” …. According to the Denver Sheriff Department’s training materials, “[t]his technique compresses the carotid arteries and the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain is diminished while concurrently sealing the jugular vein which returns the deoxygenated blood.” …. The hold is capable of rendering a person unconscious within “10-20 seconds.” *** The Sheriff’s training materials warn that “[b]rain damage or death could occur if the technique is applied for more than one minute,” and “[t]herefore the application of the technique should not be applied for more than one minute.” …. [Citations ommitted and one ellipsis added by me, Loup-Bouc]

    (2) Sources that address the lethality of positional asphyxia, mechanical asphyxia, or compression-0induced asphyxia
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6023692/
    http://charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf
    https://forensicmed.webnode.com/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/
    https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/content/dam/sdc/hhsa/programs/phs/EMS/Medical_Director_Report/10-16-18%20Hanging%20Strangulation%20and%20Other%20Dr.%20Campman.pdf
    * https://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

    Again you post a comment that clashes with the legal opinion of legal experts — myself and the Attorney General of Minnesota and the Hennepin County DA and others. COMPARE, e.g., four U.S. Supreme Court Justices’s observation that
    police have killed a notable number of civilians (especially Blacks) with carotid-artery/jugular-vein neck-compressions. Just in year 1980 Los Angeles, California, a city where Black males constituted 9% of the population, Black males accounted for 75% of the 16 deaths resulting from cop-use of choke-holds.
    See Los Angeles v. Lyons, 461 US 95 (1983), Dissent of Justices Marshall, Brennan, Blackmun, and Stevens, at footnote 3 of that Dissent,
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4587981977816900853&q=Los+Angeles+v.+Lyons,+461+US+95&hl=
    The choke holds were of sundry kinds. See also my comment of July 26, 2020 at 2:34 am GMT (comment # 266), where I presented more evidence of lethality of side-of-necck compressions of sundry kinds.

    In Estate of Booker v. Gomez (supra), the court held the cops were not immune to liability for homicide, because their conduct involved reckless disregard of the foreseeability that the victim would die because of the cops’ use of excessive force; and the principal reason was the one cop used a neck-compression hold for more than merely 1 minute. In Floyd’s case, Chauvin used the worst kind of neck-compression hold for about 8.45 minutes, including more than 3 minutes after Floyd fell unconscious.

    In Floyd’s case, a telling matter is the Minnesota history of life-threatening use of the kind of choke-hold Chauvin applied to Floyd. In Minneapolis, in 44 cases of a total of about 200 neck restraint incidents, suspects have lost consciousness. See The Scalpel’s of June 10, 2020 at 1:29 am GMT (comment # 392) posted under Fred Reed’s Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments . That comment’s direct link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title The Scalpel is a long-time Emergency Room physician. One may infer that in at least some such 44 consciousness-loss cases, the choke-holds were the kind Chauvin applied to Floyd, since Hennepin County (Minneapolis’s county) is the most populous of Minnesota — has more thn twice the population of the next-most-populous county. https://www.minnesota-demographics.com/counties_by_population

    I have shown — see my comments ## 258 and 262 — that if neck-compression lasts 2 minutes after ischemic progression begins, death is a certainty. The Scalpel has observed the same: In his comment of June 10, 2020 at 10:06 pm GMT (comment # 472) (of the same above-cited Fred Reed article), The Scalpel stated: “…[If] you choke someone to the point they pass out, they could be mere seconds from death. Certainly not more than a minute or two. The brain does not tolerate hypoxia well.

    …the kneehold (with minimum necessary pressure) was still approved MPD policy when Floyd was arrested.

    Either (a) that MPD approval was invalid because (as I explained in at least one other comment) that approval permitted use of excessive force that violates the 4th and 14th amendments of the federal constitution or (b) it could not authorize, validly, the knee-press neck-compression Chauvin applied to Floyd, for reasons that appear above and in quite enough of my other comments. See, again, Estate of Booker v. Gomez (supra) and COMPARE Richman v. Sheahan, 512 F. 3d 876 (7th Cir. 2008), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6725673574912167448&q=Richman+v.+Sheahan,+512+F.+3d+876+(7th+Cir.+2008)&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38 , AND Salcido v. Harris County (SD Texas 2018), https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11564922298315914148&q=eggshell+skull+homicide+police+or+sheriff+choke+hold+or+compression&hl=en&as_sdt=3,38 ,
    where the defendant county’s chief law enforcement officer, Sheriff Garcia, testified that the defendant officers followed Harris County training and policies throughout the incident that the court held shown to be a use of excessive force that violated the victim’s federal constitutional rights. The court states, inter alia, this:

    The testimony of Sheriff Garcia, Leveston, and Bell that the officer defendants were “maintaining their training” throughout the incident, including when they ignored Lucas’s complaints that he could not breathe, is evidence from which a reasonable jury could conclude that Harris County trained its officers to ignore complaints of an inability to breathe during restraint, and that that training reflects deliberate indifference to a serious medical need.

    The Harris County policy and training was a material cause of the “deliberate indifference to a serious medical need” that was an essential element of the homicide. Hence that policy and training was, itself, unconstitutional and could not justify or excuse the defendant cops’ homicidal use of excessive force or immunize those defendant cops from legal liability.

    Relying, falsely, on the video you linked in your comment to which this comment replies, you assert, falsely “You can see in this videoclip that the carotid is not close to the surface.”
    The carotid arteries ARE close “to the surface”: I, a physician since 1998 and a holder of an Aikido black belt and expert in martial arts choke-holds, repeat that any normal person can accomplish asphyxiation-commencing pressure with just one finger pressed against the carotid arteries or jugular veins quite as I am doing to myself right now with the middle finger of my left hand.

    Again, you post a comment that is, at best, a showing of your abysmal ignorance of medicine, human anatomy, and law and your racist’s penchant of using false, spurious, evidence-lacking assertions to advance your racism-spurred need of denying occurrence of police brutality that appears racism-inspired.

  268. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    My wife read my Word Prefect draft of my comment of July 27, 2020 at 11:06 pm GMT (comment # 272). She raised a good question respecting the following passage of that same comment’s language:

    I have shown — see my comments ## 258 and 262 — that if neck-compression lasts 2 minutes after ischemic progression begins, death is a certainty. The Scalpel has observed the same: In his comment of June 10, 2020 at 10:06 pm GMT (comment # 472) (of the same above-cited Fred Reed article), The Scalpel stated: “…[If] you choke someone to the point they pass out, they could be mere seconds from death. Certainly not more than a minute or two. The brain does not tolerate hypoxia well.”

    Her question pertained to my writing “if neck-compression lasts 2 minutes after ischemic progression begins, death is a certainty,” though The Scalpel stated: “[If] you choke someone to the point they pass out, they could be mere seconds from death. Certainly not more than a minute or two.”

    The problem is my committing a typing error (an error of not typing a word that was part of my thought that I endeavored to render with typewritten language). The missing word was “unconsciousness.” My statement ought to be: “ “if neck-compression lasts 2 minutes after ischemic progression begins unconsciousness, death is a certainty.”

  269. NoNwoNow says:

    By saying you can depress the artery with a finger, you confirm my point that it has to pressed on the right spot, it can’t be blocked by something so blunt as the knee on the wrong spot.
    I suppose your fist was otherwise occupied, and not available to try pressing it against the side of the neck.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  270. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Because my wife found the typing error I reported in my comment of July 27, 2020 at 11:06 pm GMT (comment # 272), I set aside time to proofread that comment. I found two errors that beg correction.

    [MORE]

    (1) In the same above-referenced comment (# 272), this language appears:

    A knee-press/shin-press (like Chauvin’s) can compress very excessively the carotid arteries, because, upon application of the knee-press, the involved neck-span will be “enlarged, byut the knee-press’s pushing the jaw upward and away.

    The error is in: “‘enlarged, byut.” That language ought to be “enlarged by.” Hence:

    A knee-press/shin-press (like Chauvin’s) can compress very excessively the carotid arteries, because, upon application of the knee-press, the involved neck-span will be “enlarged” by the knee-press’s pushing the jaw upward and away.

    (2) The following language corrects another passage of my same above-referenced comment (comment # 272):

    In Floyd’s case, a telling matter is the Minnesota history of life-threatening use of the kind of choke-hold Chauvin applied to Floyd. In Minneapolis, in 44 cases of a total of about 200 neck restraint incidents, suspects have lost consciousness. See The Scalpel’s of June 10, 2020 at 1:29 am GMT (comment # 392) posted under Fred Reed’s Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments . That comment’s source is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title

    One may infer that in at least some such 44 consciousness-loss cases, the choke-holds were the kind Chauvin applied to Floyd, since Hennepin County (Minneapolis’s county) is the most populous of Minnesota — has more than twice the population of the next-most-populous county. https://www.minnesota-demographics.com/counties_by_population . And, actually, that same source found that Minneaplois police records show that the 44 consciousness-loss cases involved arm-applied OR LEG-APPLIED neck compressions. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title
    and view that YouTube video at time 0:31 throughtime 1:56.

  271. Loup-Bouc says:
    @NoNwoNow

    “Can” does not equal “must.” But you, abysmally idiotic creature, will not comprehend that answer, despite is suffices. So, I shall illuminate.

    The one-finger-compression matter addressed the needed quantum of the neck-compression’s force [that of a mere single finger] — not any limit of the dimensions (length/width/height) of an effective compression’s source [finger(s), hand(s), arm(s), leg(s), knee, or shin].

    Your deeply moronic comment does NOT answer ANYTHING that I wrote in ANY of my comments.

    And your infantile lewdness is mere stupidity — not wit. Wit?

    Car soit vous ne comprenez pas la langue française, soit vous abusez de la plus belle langue avec le cerveau d’un crétin, je vous renvoie à un film français qui démontre la nature de «l’esprit» [en anglais, “wit”].

  272. ANON[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    “And btw, if he was having trouble breathing BEFORE several police officers put their weight on his neck and back while handcuffed in a prone position, then why did they go ahead do the one thing that would make it even harder to breath…?”

    Because the hold wouldn’t obstruct breathing if executed properly. But yeah everything else in your comment is just BS and I don’t need to reply to it directly.

  273. ANON[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    Thanks for a long whinging comment where you attack a person on tiny specific details and throwing a big haze of BS based on spewing out medical trivia in an effort to obscure the essential facts; Floyd said he couldn’t breathe prior to any restraint and also requested to be laid down, he had a lethal cocktail of drugs in him on top of numerous medical issues that almost certainly did him in with the hold at most speeding that up, and therefore the officers didn’t kill him and didn’t have any real reason to believe they where killing him.

    He said he couldn’t breath prior to any restraint and the hold they put him in couldn’t have compressed his windpipe. To argue that Chauvin may have possibly killed him by blocking an artery is blatantly fallacious and is a significant back peddle from the claim he intentionally suffocated him to the point where under this new point of contention it would be negligent manslaughter at most not murder in the third degree.

  274. So by not answering the question about the fist at right angles to the side of the neck, by default you agree with the result, that this does not impact airflow or blood circulation.

    A simple test that one can do in a moment by oneself, without the need for authorities or libraries or web searches.
    Not having three seconds to try this, you invite me to spend 98 minutes watching a movie to make your point. For which I thank you, it looks interesting! I will try to find the time to have a look.

    Regarding the Anglo-French divide, I am no supporter of the global monolingual anglophone project, which entails terrible losses of intellectual heritage. It is cultural imperialism and the high road to political totality.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  275. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    At the start of my comment of July 27, 2020 at 11:06 pm GMT (comment # 272) — beginning with the third sentence of that comment — I said:

    …my professional responsibilities may preclude my responding to any comments you may post after your comment to which this comment replies. My future silence shall not imply my conceding any future arguments you post.

    Yet, in your comment of July 28, 2020 at 4:13 pm GMT (comment # 279), which does not reference me expressly but likely tries to respond to my above-cited comment and my comments of July 27, 2020 at 11:30 pm GMT (comment # 273) and July 28, 2020 at 1:11 am GMT (comment # 275) [perhaps even also to my comment replying to some moronic creature whose pseudonym is “NoNwoNow”], you wrote:

    So by not answering the question about the fist at right angles to the side of the neck, by default you agree with the result, that this does not impact airflow or blood circulation.

    Not only did I NOT agree “by default,” but also, expressly, I disproved your “fist at right angles to the side of the neck” bullshit.

    [Also, air flow was never an issue. It is irrelevant. Of all the experts who have addressed Floyd’s murder, none has suggested that Floyd’s trachea was occluded. The matter is blood-flow to and from the brain.]

    [MORE]

    In your comment of July 27, 2020 at 4:56 pm GMT (comment # 271), you wrote:

    The artery is deeply situated and it is covered by the Sternodeidomastoid.”

    The sternodeidomastoids appears to “cover” the carotid arteries ONLY IF one views the neck’s anatomy from the artificial frontal angle shown at the start of the video you included in your comment of July 27, 2020 at 4:56 pm GMT (comment # 271).

    But the carotid arteries are set at the neck’s SIDES, and the sternodeidomastoid do NOT “cover” the carotid arteries viewed from, or compressed at, the neck’s sides. Rather, each sternodeidomastoid’s narrower, thinner segment — an circa 1-inch-or-shorter-segment — crosses over a small portion (a circa 1-inch-long portion) of the carotid arteries, about 2/3 of which arteries are not “covered” by the sternodeidomastoids but covered only by a rather thin dermal tissue that would separate the carotid arteries from an object pressing the side of the neck.

    Such appears in the same video (your exhibit), starting at about time 1:27 of the same video and ending at about time 1:44 of the same video. There — in that time-span — the same video shows the actual locations of the carotid arteries — their locations AT THE SIDES OF THE NECK, NOT AT OR NEAR THE NECK’S FRONT. The same video shows also that, like the sternodeidomastoids, the neck’s rear muscle-structure does NOT cover the carotid arteries. The neck’s rear muscles (e.g., levator scapulae) are set to the REAR of the carotid arteries and do not span between those arteries and the surface of the neck.

    And COMPARE this: https://www.crossfit.com/essentials/lon-cervical-muscles-part-1

    AND
    this: https://ranzcrpart1.fandom.com/wiki/Carotid_sheath:Internal_carotid_artery

    Those images indicate that one finger or a hand or fist or a forearm or upper-arm or a knee or shin or foot can occlude the carotid arteries. And Chauvin’s knee DID occlude Floyd’s carotid arteries for about 8.45 minutes, occluded his carotid arteries even for more about 3.5 minutes after Floyd fell unconscious. After 1 to 2 minutes of carotid artery occlusion of a victim who has been rendered unconscious by that occlusion, the victim WILL DIE. [I say 1 to 2 minutes, because the matter depends partly on the victim’s pre-artery-occlusion condition.]

    More important: A normal adult human can compress the carotid arteries with one finger — compress them enough for the subject-human to feel the possibility of loss of consciousness. PARTLY, the reason is that if one presses the side of the neck at the area of the location of the carotid arteries, one presses the arteries near-directly by pressing at the thin dermal layer that covers them OR one does such AND ALSO, simultaneously, one presses a sternodeidomastoid muscle-structure against the carotid arteries.

    Since a one-finger press can cause the subject-human to feel the possibility of loss of consciousness, surely Chauvin’s knee-press neck-compression “hold” did cause Floyd to lose consciousness and, because Chauvin continued so to compress Floyd’s neck for more than 3 minutes after Floyd lost consciousness, Chauvin killed Floyd — or Floyd was killed by Chuavin’s knee-press neck-compression hold and at least one other cop’s dorsal thorax compression hold, both acting together to murder Floyd.

    Sundry Floyd-arrest videos show that Floyd was dead after about 1.5 minutes after he fell unconscious — about 6.5 minutes after Chauvin began applying his knee-press neck-compression hold to Floyd. [I included links of such videos in some of my comments. And they appear abundantly throughout the internet.]

    Floyd lost consciousness because of Chauvin’s knee-press compression of Floyd’s neck or that compression plus another cop’s, or two other cops’, compression of Floyd’s dorsal thorax. That result was homicide. The Floyd-arrest videos, and at least two expert video-published opinions, make clear that Floyd did NOT lose consciousness because of any drug or drugs present in Floyd’s system.
    See video presentations of
    (1) Opinion of Dr. Bernard,

    AND
    (2) Opinion of Dr. Hansen, https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D
    See also
    (1) the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Autopsy Report, which ruled that Floyd’s death ws caused by “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement Subdual, restraint, and neck compression” [top of p.1 of that Report, https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
    (2) the Hennepin Cnty Medical Examiner’s press release, which ruled Floyd’s death “homicide” https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf
    (3) “The Scalpel,” a long-time Emergency Room physician, see my [See The Scalpel’s comments cited and discussed in my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under your article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    (4) Opinion of Judy Melinek, MD, forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. [See my comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under your article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ ]
    (5) Opinion of Dr. Karl Williams, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Allegheny County (home to Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/
    (6) The opinions of the two eminent pathologists who conducted the independent autopsy of George Floyd

    Beyond question, Chauvin’s knee occluded Floyd’s carotid arteries, as all the medical experts have stated. All the videos show Chauvin’s knee pressing sufficiently at Floyd’s neck quite where the occlusion occurred.

    The videos show that your “knee is too big to do the job” argument is patent bullshit. The truth is: Chauvin’s knee did the murder-job BETTER THAN a fist could, because Chauvin’s knee-(and shin)-press neck-compression exerted on Floyd’s neck, hence Floyd’s carotid arteries (and Floyd’s jugular veins) a force markedly greater than could any fist — because of the strength of the involved leg-muscles and because of the gravitational force of Chauvin’s body mass.

    Since apparently you could not bear READING the following when I posted it yesterday, I post it again, here. The involved Minneapolis police records will be admissible in Chauvin’s murder trial. The records indicate that the Minneapolis police knee-press neck-compression technique has caused victims to become unconscious. Then the only — and conclusive — matter is how long does unconsciousness last while the knee-press neck-compression continue after the victim loses consciousness. If for 2 minutes, death WILL occur.

    Now my re-posting of observations I posted yesterday:

    In Floyd’s case, a telling matter is the Minnesota history of life-threatening use of the kind of choke-hold Chauvin applied to Floyd. In Minneapolis, in 44 cases of a total of about 200 neck restraint incidents, suspects have lost consciousness. See The Scalpel’s of June 10, 2020 at 1:29 am GMT (comment # 392) posted under Fred Reed’s Unz Review article “Her Name Is Breonna Taylor,” https://www.unz.com/freed/her-name-is-breanna-taylor/?showcomments . That comment’s source is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title

    One may infer that in at least some such 44 consciousness-loss cases, the choke-holds were the kind Chauvin applied to Floyd, since Hennepin County (Minneapolis’s county) is the most populous of Minnesota — has more than twice the population of the next-most-populous county. https://www.minnesota-demographics.com/counties_by_population . And, ACTUALLY, that same source found that Minneaplois police records show that the 44 consciousness-loss cases involved arm-applied OR LEG-APPLIED neck compressions. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=vEeMHFik9Xo&feature=emb_title
    and view that YouTube video at time 0:31 throughtime 1:56.

    This MUST be my final comment responding to your medical-science-ignorant, law-ignorant, fact-denying, evidence-denying, near-wholly-illogical, spurious, even much-fallacious, poisonous dreck that issues from your hideous racism. I must complete preparation of a wrongful death complaint and related court-motions that must be filed in a trial court very soon.

    I absolutely cannot afford to spend the time needed to proofread this comment. Any typing error(s) must be left uncured.

    You dare not treat my silence as evidence that I concede any point you may try to put in future comment (or that you have attempted to put in past comment), lest further you show yourself the poisonous, lying racist you are.

    I have destroyed every argument you have tried to put and every argument you may hereafter attempt to present.

    Taisez-vous, Monsieur Salope-Vénéneuse de Racisme

  276. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    In my last-previous comment — my comment of July 28, 2020 at 9:14 pm GMT (comment # 280) — I included a list of physicians who have opined that Floyd’s death was homicide caused by Officer Chauvin or by him and other police who arrested Floyd. The last-listed reference was this:

    (6) The opinions of the two eminent pathologists who conducted the independent autopsy of George Floyd

    For the identities and opinions of those two pathologists, see:
    * My comment of June 23, 2020 at 2:17 am GMT (comment # 399), posted under your article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    * Opinion of Dr. Hansen, https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=0oqEp63duIc&feature=emb_title%5D [starting at at time 15:08]

  277. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    See my comment of July 29, 2020 at 10:36 pm GMT (comment # 737) posted under your article, “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/

  278. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8576371/Police-bodycam-footage-shows-moment-moment-arrest-George-Floyd-time.html

    1. Floyd exhibits delusional behavior the moment he’s contacted by police.

    2. Floyd claims he can’t breathe while standing by the police car.

    3. Floyd tells officers he wants to lie down while he’s still in the police vehicle.

    4. Floyd claims he has ‘claustrophobia’ before he gets in the police vehicle…..after having been removed from the vehicle in which he was in the driver’s seat.

    5. Floyd struggles with police during the entire encounter.

    6. The video previously shown by national media captured only a small part of the encounter and thus was ENTIRELY UNRELIABLE as a piece of evidence that IN ITS ENTIRETY was used to make substantive conclusions and inform the public mind.

    7. No reasonable jury would do anything but acquit all four officers. No crime was committed.

    8. In terms of political consequences, the George Floyd death hoax is as great as the phony ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’ in Iraq or the ‘Gulf of Tonkin’ incident at the outset of the Vietnam war.

    • Agree: John-Paul Leonard
    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Loup-Bouc
  279. geokat62 says:
    @Shabbaranks

    No crime was committed.

    sacré bleu!

  280. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Shabbaranks

    First, I thought I should urge you seek remedial reading lessons (provided by a tutor who can READ). But, feeling specially empathic today, I reconsidered your comment, more carefully. I saw that my first reading’s haste misled my reaction.

    You need a brain-transplant, thence a thorough education involving learning of language, logic, medicine, law, and what qualities actually constitute evidence and fact.

    The body cam shows beyond ANY doubt:

    (1) Floyd did not resist arrest, at least not with manner, means, or degree that could justify the cops’ conduct. Floyd’s only “resistence” was his begging the cops that they not put him in the cop car because he suffered claustrophobia. Floyd’s plea may not have been rational, since he had been sitting in a car with other people. But Floyd was panicking; and he did not try to flee and did not try to harm the cops. Hence, the cop’s reactions constituted a perfect case of use of excessive force.

    According to LAW, Floyd’s panic did not justify the cops’ use of excessive force. Rather, Floyd’s panic required that the cops NOT act as they did: Such action was not necessary to the cop’s performance of their legitimate duties. The cops ought to have foreseen that their actions would kill Floyd.

    (2) Floyd was not suffering excited delirium.

    (3) Floyd’s physiological and psychological condition rendered clearly foreseeable Floyd’s dying because of the cops’ conduct.

    (4) Vis-a-vis the clear fact that the cops’ conduct caused Floyd’s alarming physiological reaction, the cops’ pursuing and worsening their conduct “enhanced” the foreseeability that their [the cops’] conduct would kill Floyd.

    (5) The case is perfect for application of the eggshell skull rule and the law of excessive force.

    In my many comments of this thread and of the comment-thread set under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ , I presented a great abundance of details of the strong case that Floyd’s death was 3rd degree “depraved mind” murder and 2nd degree felony murder committed by Officer Chauvin and the cops compressing Floyd’s dorsal thorax. In some such comments, I showed that the legal rules of evidence render admissible in the cops’ murder trial evidence like the body cam footage.

    I shall not re-state, in this comment, the presentations of all those of my other comments. But I suggest you try to READ my comments listed here-below, cited by comment-number:

    [MORE]

    (a) in THIS thread, among others of my comments, my following comments (listed by comment-number) AND all my other comments that those comments cite (whether the cited comments are in THIS thread or in the thread set under John-Paul Leonard’s article cited above):
    See, in THIS thread, my comments numbered
    172, 192, 195, 199, 201, 203
    207, 217, 221, 222, 223, 225
    227, 230, 241, 244, 247, 248
    252, 254, 255, 256, 258, 260
    261, 262, 264, 265, 266, 268
    269, 272, 273, 280, 281, 282

    (b) in the thread set under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ , my following comments (listed by comment-number) AND all the other comments that those comments cite (whether the cited comments are in THIS thread or in the thread set under John-Paul Leonard’s article cited above or in any other thread cited in those comments):
    See, under John-Paul Leonard’s above-cited article, my comments numbered
    399, 403, 426, 428, 432, 433, 461, 463
    483, 486, 489, 491, 507, 509, 523, 555
    563, 602, 633, 639, 657, 660, 661, 662
    672, 673, 675, 687, 695, 707, 708, 709
    714, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730
    732, 733, 735, 737, 739

    The body cam footage is NOT necessary to conviction of Chauvin and the other cops; for, quite enough other evidence shows, beyond reasonable doubt, that the cops committed the crimes the prosecution has charged. The body cam evidence merely makes the prosecution’s case monumentally strong.

    Again, I urge that you obtain a brain-transplant, thence a thorough re-education. Perhaps, if the transplanted brain’s donor-body was that of a non-psychopath, honorable, empathic human having at least average intelligence, you will not be a bigot but know honor, integrity, and capacity of perceiving truth.

  281. @Loup-Bouc,

    Your petty invective demeans only yourself and reveals the overall weakness of your argument(s). However, I’m glad to see you spent so much of your time writing your review comment. I assume what you’ve written is the best you’ve got. Alas, IT FALLS WOEFULLY SHORT and a jury will reject it out of hand at trial.

    The body cam shows beyond ANY doubt:

    (1) (a) Mr. Floyd obviously resists arrest from the moment he’s contacted by police as he sits in the driver’s seat of the vehicle that he exits as seen on the latest body cam footage. Mr. Floyd was “panicking” because he had been caught moments after the commission of a crime and was high on narcotics. Furthermore, he [Mr. Floyd] not try[ing] to flee” and “not try[ing] to harm the cops” does not constitute the entire spectrum of his behavior as he attempts to resist arrest by refusing to follow commands, physically resisting officers, pretending like he had once previously been shot by police (of course, entirely untrue), and general attitude of “f#@k the police, I’m not complying with lawful orders in the performance of their legal duties.” Your language is deliberately obfuscatory.

    (1)(b) You construct a false dichotomy by writing that “he [Mr. Floyd] did not try to flee and did not try to harm the cops. Hence, the cop’s reactions constituted a perfect case of use of excessive force.” That according to you, Mr. Floyd didn’t harm the police or attempt to flee would thus make the police practitioners of excessive force IS NONSENSICAL. It simply doesn’t address the full range of actions that occurred and are documented on the recently released body cam. Willful delusion on your part by ignoring the contents of the new video doesn’t make for evidence but rather is indicative of a DSM-V mental disorder on your part [Delusional Disorder DSM-5 297.1 (F22)].

    (1)(c) You wrote “According to LAW, Floyd’s panic did not justify the cops’ use of excessive force. Rather, Floyd’s panic required that the cops NOT act as they did: Such action was not necessary to the cop’s performance of their legitimate duties. The cops ought to have foreseen that their actions would kill Floyd.” This is WOEFULLY DEFICIENT. What law? No cite of Minnesota code, trial cases, appellate decisions, anything. Your opinion is irrelevant. You use trigger words like “not necessary” and “legitimate” in an effort to couch your opinion in a veil of authority, but you don’t even give readers the slightest bit of relevant legal evidence or code support for your outlandish assertions.

    (2) Floyd was suffering from excited delirium syndrome (EDS). Expect detailed testimony from medical professionals to be introduced into evidence during the trial to support that remark. It’s likely the state will not attempt to rebut that evidence but rather attempt an end run by saying – as you imply – that it is irrelevant. Here you and they will be mistaken, for as you wrote:

    (3) (a) “Floyd’s physiological and psychological condition rendered clearly foreseeable Floyd’s dying because of the cops’ conduct.” Thus you admit that Mr. Floyd suffered from some “physiological and psychological condition” – one which I contend the medical evidence from the autopsy and medical witnesses will establish as fentanyl and methamphetamine overdose leading to or involving EDS – or will leave at least enough doubt in the mind of the jurors to achieve acquittal or merely one juror (thank you US Supreme Court in Ramos vs. Louisiana!) for a mistrial.

    (3)(b) You also conflate two separate issues: a. Floyd’s medical condition and b. Police (mis)conduct. They are separate elements. I detect a measure of hastiness from you on this part of your argument. Thus you contend that the police are capable foreseeing the effects of EDS and as you wrote, the “physiological and psychological condition” that Mr. Floyd suffered from. Even if that were true, the police called the ambulance and it arrived a mere 9 minutes later, likely a fine response time in a big city like Minneapolis. Hence, Mr. Floyd received timely medical treatment that the law provides for. His medical condition killed him, not police (mis)conduct. The video strongly demonstrates this.

    (4) You wrote: “Vis-a-vis the clear fact that the cops’ conduct caused Floyd’s alarming physiological reaction, the cops’ pursuing and worsening their conduct “enhanced” the foreseeability that their [the cops’] conduct would kill Floyd.” The police IN NO WAY EVER caused Mr. Floyd’s physiological condition. As the autopsy shows, he had a potentially fatal dose of fentanyl in his system. As the video shows, he was saying he couldn’t breathe when he was standing by the police vehicle, then said the same thing as he sitting in the back of the police vehicle, and then said that he wanted to lie down when exiting the police vehicle. He died on the spot from EDS and/or fentanyl overdose. The police IN NO WAY EVER pursued Mr. Floyd. He was in their custody and was treated in the manner in which all defendants who resist arrest as he did should be treated – by cautious physical restraint and verbal persuasion – both overwhelmingly evident by the police on the video. Nothing was enhanced, nothing was “foreseeable.” You are apparently a mind reader and ask others to do so too.

    (5) The eggshell skull rule argument is quaint and expected. But alas, Mr. Floyd was going to die from his overdose of fentanyl and EDS anyways, so the fact that the police lawfully, peacefully and properly arrested him is more than sufficient to shield them from your trite assertion of the doctrine. The law as established in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) makes your appeals to “excessive force” moot which you no doubt know or willfully disregard. Countless police officers have walked from cases like this in the lawful and proper performance of their public safety function as demanded by and empowered by the American public and as any reader can tell it eats up liberals inside to know that the law is what it is, but that’s the fact, too bad. Every SCOTUS ruling isn’t Dred Scott, just waiting for your liberal appeal to make it all change.

    (6) A new one just for you: The autopsy review performed by Dr. Michael Baden. Let it be known that Dr. Baden has performed reviews of autopsies (not the actual autopsy itself) and has opined on his “findings” in court. Specifically, he testified in the case of Rick Tabish and Sandy Murphy vs. Nevada, for the murder of Ted Binion in 1998. Dr. Baden testified that Mr. Binion died of forced suffocation or burking by someone, presumably one or both of the defendants. His testimony was pivotal in establishing the cause of death in a case where there was contravening medical evidence of narcotic overdose that lead to the death of the victim. HOWEVER, when granted a second trial, jurors rejected Baden’s theory out of hand, saying it lacked plausibility. In my discussion with a member of the press who attended the entire trial and then authored a book about that case, she indicated that Baden’s testimony lacked credibility in light of the other medical evidence of drug abuse. In any case, Dr. Baden’s testimony has proven very effective for confusing juries. From Binion to O.J. Simpson to Claus von Bulow , Baden has left a legacy of being very helpful to the defense. I suggest to you that should he appear in court, he will again muddy the waters just enough to get a mistrial or better yet, a complete and full acquittal that is throughly deserved by the accused in this case.

    PS – Next time, save the cheap remarks and the silly talk about bigotry and other affronts to your sensibilities (the horror!) for one of your friends if you have any. Good luck. You’re going to need it.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  282. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Shabbaranks

    Mostly, your reply states falsehood, evidence misrepresentation, simple illogic or logical fallacy, false law, and legal irrelevancy. False law? Your propositions’ necessary implications clash utterly with all of the pertinent legal rules, legal principles, and legal doctrines.

    Example — your treatment of Dr. Michael Baden’s past testimonies in other cases: That treatment has zero legal bearing on the legal relevance, legal admissibility, or weight of Dr. Baden’s opinion respecting Floyd’s death. Also, Dr. Baden’s Floyd-case opinion rests on basis that comports with legal evidence rules concerning expert testimony — rules that, clearly, you do not know.

    You wrote:

    You construct a false dichotomy by writing that “he [Mr. Floyd] did not try to flee and did not try to harm the cops. Hence, the cop’s reactions constituted a perfect case of use of excessive force.” That according to you, Mr. Floyd didn’t harm the police or attempt to flee would thus make the police practitioners of excessive force IS NONSENSICAL. It simply doesn’t address the full range of actions that occurred and are documented on the recently released body cam.

    The “full range of actions”? What actions? Of whom? What significancies?

    I did not put a false dichotomy, or ANY dichotomy. You do not know the meaning of “dichotomy.” In our comment-exchange, the only dichotomy resides in the difference of
    (a) the actual evidence and the legally material facts (medical and other legally material facts) that the evidence implies
    versus
    (b) the risible nonsense of YOUR “argument” — nonsense attributable to your bigotry or pro-cop bias, your fallacies, your disregard of the legally/medically material evidence, and your obviously abysmal ignorance of the pertinent legal and medical considerations.

    I shall not wade through the rest of the dreck your comment splatters. It is mere toxic dreck — not worthy of my time. In my MANY OTHER comments, I answered every detail of your reply’s dreck — and also many other details of toxic dreck emitted by Paul Craig Roberts, by other bigoted or pro-cop biased commenters like you, and by John-Paul Leonard’s comments and his Unz Review article that I cited several times in my comment of August 4, 2020 at 11:49 pm GMT (comment # 287), which replied to your comment of August 4, 2020 at 2:58 pm GMT (comment # 285).

    In my comment of August 4, 2020 at 11:49 pm GMT (comment # 287), I cited eighty (80) of my other comments — posted in THIS thread and under John-Paul Leonard’s article. Either you did not read those 80 comments, or your bias prevents your READING them.

    Those 80 other comments debunk every detail of your comment of August 4, 2020 at 2:58 pm GMT (comment # 285) and your comment of August 5, 2020 at 7:12 am GMT (comment # 288). Those 80 other comments expose your ignorance of the legal and medical considerations that pertain to, and control, the case of the cops’ murder of Floyd. They expose also the fallacies of your treatments of the available evidence involved in Floyd’s case.

    READ those 80 other comments. If you do not respond to every material proposition of the totality of those 80 other comments, you have nothing legitimate to say.

    You wrote:

    Your petty invective demeans only yourself and reveals the overall weakness of your argument(s).

    I reserve respectful rebuttals for responding to people who present legitimate arguments. YOU deserve contempt.

  283. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Shabbaranks

    I neglected to note that Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989), neither established nor altered the eggshell skull rule and the further rules that are the progeny or adjuncts of that rule. Nor does Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) “moot” anything in Floyd’s case.

    Among my 80 other comments to which I referred you in my comment of August 4, 2020 at 11:49 pm GMT (comment # 287), more than a few show that the eggshell skull rule and its progeny and adjuncts (a) control Floyd’s case and (b) in conjunction with Minnesota’s murder law, make Floyd’s death 3rd degree “depraved Mind” murder and 2nd degree felony murder.

    Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989), does not hold anything like what you appear to think it means. And, because you do not understand Graham v. Connor or know or understand the truly apposite cases you do not cite, you both misapprehend and misrepresent the pertinent evidence and the pertinent facts that evidence implies.

  284. “What is a fatal dose of fentanyl?”

    “When Floyd arrived at the hospital, his blood was drawn. According to the toxicology report, postmortem testing of that blood established the presence of, among other drugs, ‘Fentanyl 11 ng/mL’ (nanograms per milliter).

    In that regard, tucked away in the report’s ‘Reference Comments’ is this: ‘Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL.’ “

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  285. Loup-Bouc says:
    @W4llb4ng3r

    Ignorant. Contrary to medical and pharmaceutical reality.

    Humans have survived bearing more than four times 11 ng/mL serum fentanyl. See all my many comments posted in this thread and posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    And see, e.g., Fatal Fentanyl: One Pill Can Kill,” http://uthscsa.edu/artt/AddictionJC/2020-02-11-Sutter.pdf
    at p. 110, in the Key of Table 2:

    The therapeutic (TL) and toxic (TX) serum levels…are: fentanyl TL = 1-2 ng/mL, TX = 2-20 ng/mL, lethal > 20 ng/mL….

    [The term “> 20 ng/mL” means “greater than 20 ng/mL.” ]

    [MORE]

    Also, if Floyd’s serum fentanyl quantum was producing symptoms and those symptoms eventually could have been fatal, such fact would be evidence that the cops MURDERED Floyd. Again see all my many comments posted in this thread and posted under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ See especially, but not only, my below-listed comments, cited here by comment number:

    In THIS thread (set under Paul Craig Roberts’s article), read at least these comments (cited by comment number):
    172, 192, 195, 199, 201, 203
    207, 217, 221, 222, 223, 225
    227, 230, 241, 244, 247, 248
    252, 254, 255, 256, 258, 260
    261, 262, 264, 265, 266, 268
    269, 272, 273, 280, 281, 282

    In the thread set under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/
    read at least these comments (cited by comment number)
    399, 403, 426, 428, 432, 433, 461, 463
    483, 486, 489, 491, 507, 509, 523, 555
    563, 602, 633, 639, 657, 660, 661, 662
    672, 673, 675, 687, 695, 707, 708, 709
    714, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730
    732, 733, 735, 737, 739, 768

    I you are not prepared to read those above-cited 81 of my comments other comments AND my still other comments referenced in those above-cited 81 comments, be silent.

  286. We have to add a new subtype of logical fallacy to the usual list, thanks to true believers here who have kindly contributed the anonymous authority fallacy, and bid us join them in obeisance to the “anonymous certified” sage Scalpel.
    This certified Ouija board member is no less ingenious than his worshippers, as he expounds a new, medical variant of Zeno’s paradoxes:

    Scalpel: “Fentanyl is very short acting. It’s effects peak almost immediately and drop off in minutes. So whatever he had when he died, he had more before he was “arrested” and was doing fine.”

    Zeno, you may remember, was the innovator of thought experiments like Achilles and the Tortoise.
    “In a race, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead.”

    Ergo, you can never get anywhere – which Zeno is disproving by reductio ad absurdum. In this case, Scalpel’s absurdity is to say that if fentanyl doesn’t kill you immediately, it never will.

    Of course the easiest disproof of sophistry is empirical, so I looked for a case, and found this:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/carey-dean-moore-nebraska-execution-fentanyl.html
    A convict was executed with an injection of fentanyl and 3 other drugs. It took 23 minutes for him to die. But he died all right.

    See also my new posts at https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ citing the Minneapolis Police Department protocol regarding the knee restraint, which was in force at the time Chauvin applied the policy:

    “Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious [i.e. restricting the carotid artery], by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)
    The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)”

  287. Humans have survived bearing more than four times 11 ng/mL serum fentanyl.

    That was in intensive care, not on the street.

    lethal > 20 ng/mL

    Floyd’s dose was definitely lethal if you count he had 19 ng/ml of fentanyl PLUS a borderline fatal dose of 86 ng/mL of morphine.
    I don’t know why most commentators ignore the morphine/heroin dose but mention the meth dosage which was not particularly high.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  288. Loup-Bouc says:
    @John-Paul Leonard

    I debunked all your spurious, medicine-ignorant, law-ignorant, fallacious, evidence -lacking, oft quite idiotic arguments many times.

    [MORE]

    Under your article, John-Paul Leonard, “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ , see especially, but not only, all my comments cited immediately below by comment-number AND ALSO all my other comments cited in those comments cited immediately below:
    399, 403, 426, 428, 432, 433, 461, 463
    483, 486, 489, 491, 507, 509, 523, 555
    563, 602, 633, 639, 657, 660, 661, 662
    672, 673, 675, 687, 695, 707, 708, 709
    714, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 732
    733, 735, 737, 739, 754, 756, 757, 768
    769, 772, 774

    Under John-Paul Leonard’s article “Or Did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?,” https://www.unz.com/article/or-did-george-floyd-die-of-a-drug-overdose/ , i.e, in THIS thread,, see especially, but not only, all my comments cited immediately below by comment-number AND ALSO all my other comments cited in those comments cited immediately below:
    172, 192, 195, 199, 201, 203
    207, 217, 221, 222, 223, 225
    227, 230, 241, 244, 247, 248
    252, 254, 255, 256, 258, 260
    261, 262, 264, 265, 266, 268
    269, 272, 273, 280, 281, 282

    Floyd’s dose was definitely lethal if you count he had 19 ng/ml of fentanyl PLUS a borderline fatal dose of 86 ng/mL of morphine.

    Your assertion is FALSE, as is indicated by all the actually expert opinions rendered in Floyd’s case (opinions I have referenced in many of my above-cited comments).

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  289. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Loup-Bouc

    [It’s bad behavior to spam these threads with comments that mostly consist of numbered lists of your previous comments. Henceforth provide substantive comments if you want them published.]

  290. Loup-Bouc says:

    To the Censor:

    You wrote:

    [It’s bad behavior to spam these threads with comments that mostly consist of numbered lists of your previous comments. Henceforth provide substantive comments if you want them published.]

    “Bad behavior”? I acknowledge your scourging, O Yahweh. But I am neither your supplicant nor your frightened child or tethered dog. I will not repent my sin. May your hell swallow your arrogant existence.

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