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If by fascist, you mean “adherent of a movement determined to seize state power with the help of violence committed by a disciplined and armed auxiliary, if necessary, to reorder society to achieve extra-constitutional, self-defined racial or ethnic objectives embodied by a charismatic leader”, that is.

Narendra Modi and his BJP party, in my reading, plays the democrat for advantage in the electoral game, but acts the fascist through deniable cutouts—the RSS Hindu nationalist movement and its constellation of affiliates, known collectively as the Sangh Parivar.

The BJP has a membership of about 100 million. Members of Sangh Parivar organizations number in the tens of millions. The VHP, which does the heavy lifting for the Sangh as far as virulent Hindu nationalism goes, reportedly has a membership of almost 3 million.

So if you’re eager to punch fascists in India, better bring some friends…maybe bring a chopper…well, maybe bring a gun…maybe bring a lot of guns.

Fascists play for keeps in India.

Reasonable people can disagree. But before you disagree with me, please read my piece on Modi Is Narendra Modi the Leader of the World’s Largest Democracy…Or the World’s Most Successful Fascist?—and the horror of the pogrom he allegedly orchestrated in Gujarat in 2002–first.

And read this, about the battle to come out on top in the Uttar Pradesh state assembly election, which will be held in stages between February 11 and March 8 in seven phases.

Uttar Pradesh, a.k.a. UP, in addition to being an immense electoral prize in India’s heartland—if independent, its population of 200 million would make it the sixth largest country in the world—is 20% Muslim.

The BJP views that percentage as a challenge, a threat…and an opportunity to display its core competence in the science of communal polarization, intimidation, and worse.

One of the less savory expressions of the philosophy of Hindu nationalism, or Hindutva, that prevails among followers of Modi, the BJP, and the RSS, is the sentiment that Muslims are an affliction, a contamination and, especially via Pakistan, a threat to the purity and vigor of the Hindu polity.

“Reconverting” Indian Muslims back to Hinduism—on the grounds that the vast majority of Hindu Muslims are that way only because of forcible conversion to Islam back in the day and should be helped to return to their true religion—is a big deal for the BJP.

The movement is called “ghar wapsi”—“homecoming” and it’s run by cadet outfits of the RSS.

“Our target is to make India a Hindu Rashtra by 2021. The Muslims and Christians don’t have any right to stay here.”

“So they would either be converted to Hinduism or forced to run away from here,” Uttar Pradesh DJS head Rajeshwar Sing said.

In case you’re laboring under the mis-impression that this is just the frothing of a bunch of marginalized extremist goombahs, for Rajeshwar Sing, the guy quoted above, running Hindu reconversion circuses in UP was his ticket to the big show.

The next year, Sing got promoted to the RSS, the organization Narendra Modi serves as a pracharak, or lifetime cadre, and whose political arm is the BJP.

In 2015, the Times of India reported on Singh’s new responsibilities. Singh obligingly schooled the Times on the hierarchy/deniable cutout arrangement that informs the relationship between the RSS, its multitude of affiliates, and the BJP:

Dharam Jagran Samaj’s Rajeshwar Singh, the force behind the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh’s high-octane ghar wapsi programme in western Uttar Pradesh last year, who was quietly sent on a three-month leave by the RSS later, is back with an elevation. From the fringe body, Singh has now been promoted to the parent organization. According to regional RSS leaders, this is indeed a shot in the arm for Singh.

Singh, who will now be shifting base to Meerut from Agra on April 7, told TOI over phone, “According to our internal hierarchy, RSS is at the top, followed by VHP and others, while DJS is at the bottom of the rung.

Talking about his new role, Singh said, “I have continuously worked for the Sangh’s campaigns and programmes. I will wait for the orders. Even earlier, there were orders to conduct ghar wapsi [“Homecoming” ceremonies for Muslims converting “back” to Hinduism], which I followed.”
“My hard work and struggles have paid off as I am now associated (directly) with RSS.”

To appreciate the tactical coordination between the RSS and the BJP and the endless PR games played by the BJP while it preserves political deniability as it exploits the communal polarization strategy executed by the RSS, it was elsewhere explained that Singh had been sent on vacay for a few months before his promotion not because he was doing a bad job, but because he was doing too good a job. Muslim conversion started to generate too much political heat for the BJP & it was deemed necessary to cool things down:

In December 2014, the RSS leadership had relieved senior pracharak Rajeshwar Singh of his duties in its Dharm Jagran wing for creating an embarrassment for the BJP government through his reconversion drive in Uttar Pradesh, something that he had been doing with RSS’ blessings since 1998.

“There is an understanding where every issue is allowed to be raised with the government, but there is an understanding also that it should not be taken to a stage to create an embarrassment for the government — our government,” said a person privy to the larger understanding in the leadership of the Sangh Parivar.

Uttar Pradesh is historical ground zero for BJP’s politics of Hindutva nationalism and anti-Muslim agitation.

The signature piece of BJP incitement in its career in India–and perhaps the key inflection point in modern Indian history– was the successful campaign to tear down the Babri Masjid mosque in Ayodhya in eastern UP in 1993, on the pretext that it had been sacrilegiously built there by the Moghuls 400 years ago on top of the actual birthplace of Lord Ram.

Here’s a capsule video report. Kar sewaks are religious volunteers, in this case mobilized by the BJP and other Hindu nationalist parties; a lakh = 100,000, so 200,000 people participated in storming the mosque. A puja is a routine religious ritual that was used as a pretext for assembling the 200,000 kar sewaks.

As to consequences, thousands have died in communal violence directly related to the conflict ginned up over the Ayodhya mosque by the BJP. The 2002 pogrom that stains Modi’s tenure in Gujarat was sparked by the deaths of BJP kar sewaks on a train returning from a ceremony at Ayodhya.

Ayodhya defined and affirmed the BJP as a dominating national party and the intimidating voice of Hindu chauvinism.

Narendra Modi was there, by the way. In the 1990s he was a go-fer and organizer for LK Advani, the BJP head at the time, who built the BJP into a national force through his “Rath Yatra” a ceremonial procession through India led by a Toyota converted into Lord Ram’s chariot that that left a trail of communal violence and death in its wake, and culminated with an assault on the Ayodhya mosque.

If you have an hour to spare, watch this documentary, In the Name of God, on the BJP’s Ayodhya campaign and its impact on issues of caste, religion, and class in UP. I found it a riveting piece of social history.

Here’s a picture of Modi at the time.

Modi had a junior but important role in organizing the Yatra. Among his many duties, he was Advani’s “mike holder” when the BJP chief issued his pronouncements.

The Ayodhya dog doesn’t quite hunt anymore, as far as stoking outrage over Muslim presumption goes. The Babri Masjid was destroyed over 20 years ago…

… and a ramshackle temple to Rama stands in the ruins today.

But BJP ugliness in Uttar Pradesh is not just a matter of nostalgia for the bigoted thuggery of the Ayodhya mosque demolition.

The BJP and its surrogates returned to the reliable anti-Muslim program by, according to credible accounts, carefully orchestrating and exploiting an outbreak of communal violence in western Uttar Pradesh in 2013.

On one level, Uttar Pradesh politics is mind-numbingly complex[1]Per Economic Times the social structure and vote bank state of play in Uttar Pradesh:

There are 79 castes under other backward classes (OBCs). There are sub-categories of backward classes (BCs) and most backward classes (MBCs) within OBCs. Yadav, Lodh, Kurmi and Jat come under BCs and constitute around 18% of the population, while all MBCs make up around 16.7%. Together, they have dominance in 145 assembly seats across UP . Yadavs are dominant OBCs and hold sway in 75 assembly constituencies with a population of over 20%. These include Etawah and the adjoining areas in west UP and Azamgarh and areas border ing Bihar in east UP . Dalits have 66 sub-castes and to gether they make up more than 20% of the population in near ly 100 assembly constituen cies. Muslims are over 20% in 145 assembly seats.

Brahmins play a crucial role in 60 assembly seats (over 20% of the population) in central and east UP and Thakurs are important in 85 seats (over 15% of population) mainly in central and east UP , such as Pratapgarh, Amethi, Domariaganj and Sultanpur, and some in west UP like Fatehpur Sikri. To win an election, a party needs at least 30% of the total votes, which cannot be achieved through one caste alone. Parties thus cobble up caste and communal alliances to sail through.

“The role of MBCs and subcastes comes into play here. Though the numbers differ from west to east UP , the demographic distribution and concentration of castes is such that a minor tilt of one caste or sub-caste can influence the election in a seat or even a region,“ says analyst Ashish Awasthi.

For example, among OBCs, Jats constitute only 2%, but they are over 17% of the populace in 11 districts of west UP , influencing 55 assembly seats. Similarly, Kurmis are 4% and Lodhs 2% of the population but have influence in many seats in Bundelkhand, central and east UP .

Among MBCs -Mauryas, Shakyas, Sainis, Kushwaha, Nishads and Binds -have influence in central and east UP , Rajbhars in east UP . Together, they can play a crucial role in about 100 seats. Parties with bases among BCsMBCs and sub-castes have also come up.RLD has influence over Jats, Apna Dal over Kurmis, Mahan Dal over Mauryas, Shakyas, Sainis and Kushwaha, Suheldev Bhartiya Samaj Party over Rajbhars and Peace Party over a section of east UP Muslims. A swing of 4,000-5,000 votes can win you an election in a particular constituency. This explains why major parties ally with smaller ones,“ says an analyst. Akhilesh Yadav’s move to recommend the inclusion of 17 sub-castes from OBCs into the scheduled caste category is aimed at getting their votes. These castes are Kahar, Kashyap, Kewat, Nishad, Bind, Bhar, Prajapati, Rajbhar, Batham, Gaur, Tura, Majhi, Mallah, Kumhar, Dheemar and Machua -spread across UP .

Similarly, among Dalit subcastes, BSP holds sway among Jatavs, which is why other parties are wooing sub-castes like Pasis and Balmikis, which are a good number in central UP.
(see the Economic Times ‘splainer attached to the end of this piece). On another level, it’s pretty simple. Caste politics dominate. Various political parties each have their “vote bank” a core identity-politics outfit they rely on for their electoral clout: Dalits (“untouchables”) for the BSP, Yadavs for the SP, “forward castes” (Brahmins, especially) for the BJP. That’s around 70% of the electorate right there. Each party deploys the full range of public relations hoohah at election time to try to cannibalize dissatisfied supporters from the other parties and gain an electoral edge.

Then there’s the Muslim vote. There are quite a few Muslims in UP, maybe 20% of the population, potentially decisive in the highly fragmented world of UP politics. The BJP is never going to win Muslim votes for obvious reasons, so its strategy is to strip away Hindu votes from the BSP and SP by resorting to its core competency in “polarization” i.e shifting the terms of political discourse away from communal interests to communal hatred, and rely on the marginalized and intimidated Muslims to fragment their votes among the various local parties instead of organizing as a bloc.

The BJP strategy was demonstrated in the outbreak of communal violence in western Uttar Pradesh against the backdrop of elections to the national parliament, the Lok Sobha, in 2014 that the BJP was determined to win.

A path to victory was to break the electoral solidarity of a key “backward caste” the Jats, comprised of both Hindus and some Muslims. Jats served as the coveted local “vote bank” for the BSP, which relied on a combination of Jat and Muslim votes for its electoral fortunes in dozens of constituencies in western Uttar Pradesh.

The region is 25% Muslim, a demographic that, for understandable reasons, is largely beyond the reach of the BJP. The key was to polarize the Jat electorate so that it would identify with the Muslim-despising national BJP more than the “all politics is local/Jat+Muslim tactical alliance” competing parties.

Unfortunately, western Uttar Pradesh already had some a history of communal violence between non-Jat castes and Muslims, so it was a matter of building on existing tensions rather than ginning up a pogrom from scratch.

According to a report compiled by ANHAD, a human rights group, after extensive site visits, RSS activists fanned out around the western UP city of Muzzafarnagar to create an atmosphere of communal tension by promoting the manufactured threat of “love jihad”—the seduction of Hindu women by Muslim men for the purpose of converting them to Islam—by sending provocateurs to pose as Muslims to taunt Hindu girls and, just to make sure the communal pot got boiling, sending Hindus out to taunt Muslim girls:

About 10-15 young men were recruited by the Sangh Parivar in each town and village and were deputed to spread hate. Systematic and organised, incidents of eve-teasing [current term of art not just for sexually harassing speech directed to women in public but also other forms of physical molestation—ed.] had increased many folds. The method was simple, use skull caps to eve tease a Hindu woman and wear Kalawa while eve teasing a Muslim girl in a Burka. The anger against this escalation prepared the grounds for spreading notion of „love jihad‟ by Sangh Parivar in a highly male chauvinistic society, a campaign, which made the two communities suspicious of each other. Every instance where a Hindu Girl was found talking to a Muslim boy was publicised and seen as an invasion. This method had been successfully used in Gujarat before 2002 carnage.

I speculate that the profoundly ugly foundation for this RSS strategy was awareness that western Uttar Pradesh is not just “traditional” or “chauvinist”–it leads India in honor killings. In fact, in 2003, Muzzafarnagar district reported 13 honor killings in 9 months, which probably made it the honor murder capital of all India.

Extreme private/public violence to control female behavior is practiced in Jat communities and is reportedly an emblem of power and authority for the village heads,as one study described:

The khap leaders are a handful of self-appointed, self-styled protectors of the ‘purity’ of the Jat community in rural Haryana. Baljit Malik, a leader of the Jathwala khap, says: “We do not subscribe to these killings. It is the families that execute such murders. Khaps are needed today like never before, given the exposure to the outside world. The village cannot depart from conventions which form the basis of civilisation.” He is speechless when asked why they do not issue fatwa, osctracising families indulging in such killings or repressing women.

The authority the khap has in a village makes its leaders demigods. Their word is law and any digression is enough to invite the severest punishment.

So, what better way for the RSS/BJP to insinuate itself into the Jat polity and put itself on the side of the conservative khaps by fomenting a moral panic based on the sexual threat to Jat womanhood from Muslim men.

The campaign of communal violence was encouraged at inflammatory rallies with BJP attendance. In time honored fashion, trishuls—the signature BJP trident and a rather nasty looking metal implement–were distributed, a pretty good predictor that things are going to turn bloody.

And they did.

A cycle of eve-teasing offense, punishment, and retaliation led to the deaths of three people in a town outside Muzzafarnagar city. Fatally, the incident involved Muslims & Hindus, providing the BJP and khaps with the opportunity for a mass mobilization on the pretext of the Muslim threat to Jat lives and honor.

Per the ANHAD report:

Despite prohibitory orders … proclaimed by the administration … about 100 thousand people were allowed to assemble. Many of them were armed as was requested by BJP-RSS combine. The slogans that were used by the coming crowed were highly provocative and communal. For example „Musalmano Kaeik histhan, Pakistan ya qabristan (for Muslims there is only one option Pakistan or graveyard), Modi Lao Desh Bachao (Bring Narendra Modi Save the Nation), Tumne do Ko mara hai ham sau katwe marenge (you have killed two Hindus we will kill 100 Muslims).

Fearing an attack Muslims started collecting in Madarsa (sic) and Mosques.During the Mahapanchayat [meeting of khaps ostensibly called by Jat leaders but actually organized by the BJP in this case-ed.], the leaders spitted venom against Muslims. A fake video [showing two youths being brutally murdered, actually showing events in Pakistan—ed.] was used to raise the temperatures. The same was circulated, by the BJP and RSS workers in the form of MMS and CDS. It was uploaded on the social Media as well. Sangeet Som (BJP MLA) was the first to upload the video on his social networking site account

The butcher’s bill: 46 Muslims killed and 13 Hindus. Officially. About 50,000 residents, overwhelmingly Muslim, fled to refugee camps.

Activist filmmaker Gopal Menon did extensive local interviews as well as rounding up footage of the inflammatory mahapanchayat assembly organized by the Jat khaps and the BJP for his documentary, The Killing Fields of Muzzaffarnagar, which is well worth watching. According to Menon, the Muslim death toll was more like 150.

Rape, as one would expect from the sexually charged campaign, was a feature of the pogrom.

So was police and official collusion in leaving victims unprotected during the attacks and without redress afterwards, and studied indifference to the plight of refugees.

The electoral payoff in the UP segment of the Lok Sabha (national assembly) races: the Jat Hindu community was successfully polarized between its Hindu and Muslim members. Many Jat Hindus cleaved to the BJP instead of continuing to back the BSP, and the BJP dominated while the local parties scrapped over the leftovers.

The BJP clobbered the local parties statewide, but no region came out in bigger numbers for the BJP than the Jat core in western UP. Not even eastern UP, the home of Ayodhya, a center of Brahminism, and the BJP traditional heartland.

One of the alleged insigators of the unrest, BJP UP executive committee member Umesh Malik, subsequently claimed, somewhat hyperbolically:

“During the Lok Sabha election, the embers that rose from Muzaffarnagar spread to the state, and from there to the entire nation. The embers that you created made Narendra Modi the Prime Minister”.

The good news, at least temporarily, was that in a handful of UP 2014 state assembly races held soon after the Lok Sabha polls, the BJP won only 3 of the eleven contested seats despite energetically turning the communal hatre crank, stalling the Modi juggernaut.

Gilles Vernier, a professor of political science at Ashoka University, looked at the fresh wave of violence in the run-up to the state polls and observed in 2014:

The amplitude of the current outbursts of violence seems disproportionate for the political gains at stake … The real objective is the next assembly elections in 2017…

This pratfall apparently forced the BJP to re-evaluate its UP-wide strategy and pull back from aggressive statewide Hindutva agitation this year: the 2017 assembly elections, the big one, when all 403 state assembly seats are at stake.

In the run-up to this year’s polls, demonetization is being advertised as the magic bullet for the BJP’s UP hopes, on the theory that sucking almost half of the nation’s cash out of circulation would disproportionately discommode the BJP’s adversaries in their vote buying/campaigning exercises. At the same time, so the theory goes, demonetization would be understood by the little people of all castes as the sure sign that the BJP and Modi are the only guys fighting for them in UP against the forces of black money and corruption which, to be sure, dominate the political and economic culture in the state.

On hot button Hindutva issues, moderation, at least on the surface, is seen as the key:

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s appreciation of the canonisation of Mother Teresa or the snub to cow vigilantism recently may run against the common strand of RSS belief, but the Sangh has not made them an issue to confront the government, they said.

The RSS has …only desisted from raising heat over the Ram Temple, Common Civil Code [promoted by the BJP to supplant shariah and other religious laws in family matters—ed.] or Article 370 [constitutional amendment granting limited autonomy to Jammu & Kashmir], …

In the current campaign, the BJP expended considerable energy to try to sell itself in UP as a suitable destination for Dalit votes, even though it is founded on a vision of returning to the glory days of Brahmin dominion. Apparently, the effort faltered and the BJP Dalit outreach program, instead of culminating in a supercolossal rally addressed by Modi in UP’s state capital of Lucknow, petered out as a meeting in Kanpur chaired by the head of the UP BJP.

Nevertheless, the BJP recently announced a slate of 80 Dalit candidates for the UP assembly, a sign that the leadership is pinning serious hopes on duplicating its 2014 success in eating into the BSP’s base for the Lok Sabha elections…and relying on its adversaries hopelessly splitting the Muslim & other vote blocs between them.

Apparently some discreet Hindutva dog whistling is apparently still required to show that the BJP’s heart is still in that deep, dark place where communal violence is the ticket to electoral success.

The president of the BJP in Uttar Pradesh called for prompt erection of a magnificent temple to the Hindu god Lord Ram…on the site of the demolished Muslim mosque in Ayodhya…that triggered communal violence throughout India…and the notorious Gujarat pogrom of 2002…presided over by Narendra Modi as chief minister of Gujarat.

Here’s a photo of the scale model of the envisioned temple that serves as the BJP’s Ayodhya temple fetish. Rama not shown actual size, natch.

The BJP chieftain then distanced himself from the subsequent uproar, in the best BJP-tactical/post-truth fashion, by simply denying he had said it.

Modi also discreetly honored his Hindutva roots during an appearance at a ceremony honoring Lord Rama by echoing the battle cry of the militants who had demolished the Ayodhya mosque, the god whose birthplace was supposedly defiled by Babri Masjid.

As for western Uttar Pradesh, the Hindutva bell had been rung emphatically in 2013 in Muzzaffanagar, and it was re-rung in Muzzaffanagar in February 2016 when the BJP won a state assembly by election in the miserable district on the platform of defense against gangrape and love-jihad in a campaign run by the alleged Jat and BJP orchestrators of the 2013 pogrom.

The durability of the polarization strategy in the Jat regions of western Uttar Pradesh, with its promise that the RSS/BJP has permanently cracked this pillar of the BSP vote bank—and hope that the BSP and SP will cripple themselves competing for the limited untouchable/Muslim votes remaining—probably accounts for the professed public confidence of the BJP as it goes into this year’s state assembly election.

Umesh Malik, who was an alleged linchpin of the 2013 pogrom, is on the BJP’s candidate list for the upcoming election for Budhana, a small town in the Muzzaffanagar district.

The election in Uttar Pradesh is crucial because it is a test, in India’s biggest state, of the “Modi Magic” which has failed to deliver big wins for the BJP in recent by-elections.

The formidable Modi machine—which, by the way, takes advantage of generous reporting in the Western press accruing from India’s importance as an anti-China counter and techlords’ dream date to feed back images of Modi as a global darling to the Indian market—will be on full display in conventional media, social media, and local organizing in Uttar Pradesh.

What’s the staying power of fascism in the 21st century? Modi’s India, more than Trump’s America, will give us an answer.


[1] Per Economic Times the social structure and vote bank state of play in Uttar Pradesh:

There are 79 castes under other backward classes (OBCs). There are sub-categories of backward classes (BCs) and most backward classes (MBCs) within OBCs. Yadav, Lodh, Kurmi and Jat come under BCs and constitute around 18% of the population, while all MBCs make up around 16.7%. Together, they have dominance in 145 assembly seats across UP . Yadavs are dominant OBCs and hold sway in 75 assembly constituencies with a population of over 20%. These include Etawah and the adjoining areas in west UP and Azamgarh and areas border ing Bihar in east UP . Dalits have 66 sub-castes and to gether they make up more than 20% of the population in near ly 100 assembly constituen cies. Muslims are over 20% in 145 assembly seats.

Brahmins play a crucial role in 60 assembly seats (over 20% of the population) in central and east UP and Thakurs are important in 85 seats (over 15% of population) mainly in central and east UP , such as Pratapgarh, Amethi, Domariaganj and Sultanpur, and some in west UP like Fatehpur Sikri. To win an election, a party needs at least 30% of the total votes, which cannot be achieved through one caste alone. Parties thus cobble up caste and communal alliances to sail through.

“The role of MBCs and subcastes comes into play here. Though the numbers differ from west to east UP , the demographic distribution and concentration of castes is such that a minor tilt of one caste or sub-caste can influence the election in a seat or even a region,“ says analyst Ashish Awasthi.

For example, among OBCs, Jats constitute only 2%, but they are over 17% of the populace in 11 districts of west UP , influencing 55 assembly seats. Similarly, Kurmis are 4% and Lodhs 2% of the population but have influence in many seats in Bundelkhand, central and east UP .

Among MBCs -Mauryas, Shakyas, Sainis, Kushwaha, Nishads and Binds -have influence in central and east UP , Rajbhars in east UP . Together, they can play a crucial role in about 100 seats. Parties with bases among BCsMBCs and sub-castes have also come up.RLD has influence over Jats, Apna Dal over Kurmis, Mahan Dal over Mauryas, Shakyas, Sainis and Kushwaha, Suheldev Bhartiya Samaj Party over Rajbhars and Peace Party over a section of east UP Muslims. A swing of 4,000-5,000 votes can win you an election in a particular constituency. This explains why major parties ally with smaller ones,“ says an analyst. Akhilesh Yadav’s move to recommend the inclusion of 17 sub-castes from OBCs into the scheduled caste category is aimed at getting their votes. These castes are Kahar, Kashyap, Kewat, Nishad, Bind, Bhar, Prajapati, Rajbhar, Batham, Gaur, Tura, Majhi, Mallah, Kumhar, Dheemar and Machua -spread across UP .

Similarly, among Dalit subcastes, BSP holds sway among Jatavs, which is why other parties are wooing sub-castes like Pasis and Balmikis, which are a good number in central UP.

(Republished from China Matters by permission of author or representative)
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  1. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    This fellow is a fascist.

    Remind me what he has to do with Narendra Modi?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @joe webb
  2. Quite interesting, but also quite remote. If Hindus are killing and repressing Muslims in India, or Buddhists are killing and repressing Muslims in Burma, it is of little concern to me. It occurs to me that perhaps they are doing so because they have a clearer view of what Muslims would do to them if they could than we here in the West do. These people have lived cheek by jowl with Muslims for centuries and know what they are like.

    The conventional Western wisdom (“Islam is a religion of peace,” etc.) by contrast all too often reminds me of the aphorism that there are none so blind as those who will not see.

    • Agree: Monotonous Languor
    • Replies: @Pascal
  3. Thanks, Indian politics is very interesting, and I would like to pay more attention to it.

    “Reconverting” Indian Muslims back to Hinduism—on the grounds that the vast majority of Hindu Muslims are that way only because of forcible conversion to Islam back in the day and should be helped to return to their true religion—is a big deal for the BJP.

    Surely, by this standard, Pakistan and really much of the rest of the Muslim world is far more “fascist” than India?

  4. I am not Indian or Hindu, don’t like or trust the BJP, or Indians, and certainly don’t want many Indians settling in our western countries.

    But is the author saying that the BJP is wrong in viewing Muslims as a threat to nonMuslims in India? I think that view of Muslims is a pretty wise and realistic view, in India or anywhere else.

    • Agree: Alternate History
    • Troll: sarz
  5. Jupiter says:

    Sorry but besides Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists had to face the brunt of the ghastly, bloody Muslim invasions and domination for a millennia before the British arrived.

    Some of the proposed policies may seem a bit zealous – but it’s called self-preservation.

    Imagine if Hindus were the minority 20% – how long before widescale slaughter, conversion, and violence?

    • Agree: Monotonous Languor
  6. KA says:

    There was no Mulsim terrorism in India before 1987 when BJP went into rampage . The destruction of Babri Masjid was on their election agenda This changed the political map for them form having 2 seats in Parliament out of 500 to some 200 seats in that election .

    There is no terrorism in Mynamar now But no one in his clear mind will fail to see if a reactionary responses does emanate from the persecuted Muslim in Mynamar , would be an expected reaction .

    I wonder if Muslim Brotherhood came to power by killing Coptics or Shia .

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @Karl
  7. It seems like an example of “Islam’s Bloody Borders” – Islamic violence and aggression tends to incite a reactionary violence on the periphery among those non-Muslim groups fighting for survival. This has been damped down in the West by the West’s anti-Western leadership, but in most areas you see a reaction proportional to the threat. Muslims have murdered tens of millions of Indian Hindus, possibly hundreds of millions, so support for the BJP is hardly surprising.

  8. DB Cooper says:

    Massive human rights violation in India is not new. It has been going on for years. The victims of the 2002 Gujarat massacre by the Hindutva thugs are still waiting for their justice.

    People blame it on the Muslims in India and I see a lot of Indians exploit this bigotry to hide the systematic oppression of the Muslims. Actually what it shows is that Hindu can be just as violent as other people.

    India is one of those country most people get it wrong out of ignorance. Once the country was created it continue the expansionist policy of the Raj including the invading and annexing of its neighbors land. Fifteen years before Saddam Hussein row his columns of tanks into Kuwait city and annexed Kuwait, India row its column of trucks into Gangtok and annexed the Himalayan kingdom of Sikkim, and occupy it to this day. It never tired of reminding the British of their sins of colonialism yet it sees itself as the new colonial power in the bloc including the heavy meddling and bullying of its neighbors. One of the first thing India did was to resign a series of unequal treaties the British Raj had with its neighbors, making clear to its neighbors that India is the new imperial power in the block.

    India is a failed state but is obssessed to be seen as a superpower. Resource that can be used to greatly improve the lives of its people are squandered on vanity projects. Today it is the space program. In 1957 it is the purchasing of a used aircraft carrier from Britain.

  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The point being is that the west uses labels like facist against countries it wants to push around like China, Russia, or Iran.

    But doesn’t care at all that an ally India is facist or that Saudi Arabia is facist. Or that Isreal is.

    The talking points we always get is that India is the worlds largest democracy and what the Saudis do is just buried in the mainstream media. The same for Isreal.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    , @Daniel Chieh
  10. bunga says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Have you ever looked into the maps ? If you did you would see fascism in middle East now India and before that in Pakistan are closely related to American connections. You see Syria Iraq or Libya did not have these problems until now . You see India did not have it until BJP which is fully in the pocket of American political and economic directions came to power.

    Your comment is important to understand why we go to war to kill monster because we believe there are monsters . This is called softening the resistance and you are part of that processing .

  11. @Anonymous

    And China calls its enemies fascist and Russia the same. It’s an annoying tick admittedly but one that all sides engage in and it’s really silly to pretend otherwise.

    I’ll never understand why this site that hates American neoconservatives gives open reign to the Chinese equivalent. Who/whom I guess.

    • Replies: @KA
  12. If by fascist, you mean “adherent of a movement determined to seize state power with the help of violence committed by a disciplined and armed auxiliary, if necessary, to reorder society to achieve extra-constitutional, self-defined racial or ethnic objectives embodied by a charismatic leader”, that is.

    Native Americans, Tibetans, Scots, Irish, Catalonians, Basque, Kosovars, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and Israelis are fascist by this definition. The Amish renounce violence and state power, so I guess they get a pass.

  13. spandrell says: • Website

    I gotta say that the money the Chinese government spends on you is well spent.

    • Agree: Marcus
  14. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:


    The people here do not give free reign to China or Russia.

    Other countries use the term facism, but only the west uses it as an excuse to sanction other countries or bomb them.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  15. KA says:
    @Sam Haysom

    Yes ,why do we fall for the trap? Why do we need to have any ideologically comfortable consistent country ? There is none and our need for a temporary utopia or solution forces us to side with equally bad guys . We don’t have a need We create this. We have to live with uncertainty that there will be none There is none and as human we remain vigilant aware cognizant and impartial We keep emotion and intelligent separate .

  16. @Anonymous

    Its really nothing new, though. You can basically see this all the way since the 1950s and going forward.

  17. Marcus says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I wouldn’t take anything Lee says seriously. IRL Modi is viewed by Hindu nationalists the way Putin is by Russian nationalists.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  18. Marcus says:
    @DB Cooper

    What “systemic oppression” of the Muslims? They are much freer than their coreligionists in Pakistan. Meanwhile minorities in Pakistan are fleeing for their lives.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  19. Marcus says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    As far as I know, every majority-Muslim country beside Turkey and Albania (maybe not Azerbaijan?) has declared Islam a state religion and persecutes blasphemy and apostasy to some degree. You could say Turkey’s secularism is now a sham, due to the frequent murders of Christian missionaries. India actually protects Islam and Christianity with anti-blasphemy laws more than Hinduism, for example it banned the Satanic Verses.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  20. DB Cooper says:

    “What “systemic oppression” of the Muslims?”

    Thousands disappeared in Kashmir without a trace only to turn up in mass graves. A law allowing the Indian state to detain or kill anyone with impunity in area India deemed ‘disturbed’, such as Kashmir. Peaceful protests were gunned down by the hundreds.

    And of course the massacre in Gujarat 2002, to name a few.

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @Anonymous
  21. Marcus says:

    Kashmir is disturbed, thanks largely to Pakistan’s efforts, the entire Hindu population was brutally purged from there. Hard to call riots an example of persecution, more like a predictable response to Muslim attacks, and it was followed by more.
    In any case I’m sure you don’t want to compare the lot of minorities (full citizens with their sensibilities enshrined in the law) in India to those in many Muslim countries

  22. DB Cooper says:

    “In any case I’m sure you don’t want to compare the lot of minorities (full citizens with their sensibilities enshrined in the law) in India to those in many Muslim countries”

    This kind of nonsense can only fool the gullibles. If you are a minorites, the worst place you can be is in India.

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @Marcus
  23. DB Cooper says:

    The whole northeast is deemed by India as ‘disturbed’ too. This is Pakistan fault also?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  24. Ivan says:

    The BJP represents a real and large constituency in India. While not quite the ‘silent majority’, the Hindus who support the BJP were long without a voice in Indian politics. With the arrival of the BJP they have their representation. I see nothing wrong with that in a democracy.

    The Muslims and their supporters in the Congress were needlessly arrogant, and wilfully blind to the importance of the mythic Ayodhya in Hindu consciousness, especially to the Indians in the North. The mosque that was demolished was not being used for worship, and the Muslim religious authorities could have easily arranged to satisfy what I thought were legitimate Hindu demands. Instead a whole parade of excuses were given laced with questions on the authenticity of Hindu scriptures. They seem to have had no sense of irony, since in Bombay the same kind of religious Muslims burned Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ for insulting their scriptures.

    That river had to be crossed, and I am glad it was crossed. Today Ayodhya is a non-issue, and far as the rest of us are concerned, the RSS can build their mandir a mile high. But then there is not much energy behind this since a lot of money is involved.

    Although I do worry about the extreme elements in the BJP-RSS combine, their tricks are easily called out and Modi prefers to concentrate on the economy so that he can get re-elected and we have the wherewithal to manage the China-Pakistan axis.

    • Replies: @bunga
  25. Ivan says:
    @DB Cooper

    Its the bloody Chicoms in the North-East, and Pakistan in Kashmir. The Sino-Pak axis that exists to make trouble for India. The Chicoms think that they are very smart supporting all kinds of low intensity insurgencies. Their preferred means of confrontation nowadays.

  26. Ivan says:
    @DB Cooper

    Balls! I am a Catholic I have no problems. No doubt you will come with something from the internet, but it isn’t anything that is systematic or widespread. It affects at most a few hundreds.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  27. Ivan says:

    Fat lot of good it did us in the end. The Muslims thought they had the run of the place after the banning of the book. The others looking on didn’t feel too happy when every Friday, masses of Muslim headbangers stick their asses up in the air blocking street traffic.

  28. Ivan says:
    @DB Cooper

    As Marcus wrote below Hindu Pandits were driven out from Kashmir by terrorism sponsored from Pakistan. The number of those who fled is around 300,000. The BJP took up their cause and I say good on them.

    Kashmir is the only state in India with a Muslim majority, nonetheless it is a small population. The majority of Muslims about 200 million of them live in the rest of India side by side with Hindus. If Kashmir slips from India’s hands, the safety of Muslims in India will be in jeopardy from understandably enraged Hindus. This has been the long term strategy of Pakistan, to make India unliveable for Muslims, in order to make India ungovernable. In this they are ably supported by their ‘all-weather’ friend and paragon of protector of minority rights, the Chicoms.

    At independence Hindus, Christians and Sikhs formed about 15-17% of Pakistan’s population. What is that percentage now? It is in single digits, with among other things no safety for the females of the population. By contrast, the Muslim population in what became modern India was about 18% and if anything has slightly increased in proportion.

    • Agree: Marcus
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @sarz
  29. Marcus says:
    @DB Cooper

    Yeah you’re a troll, no point in bothering.

  30. Marcus says:

    He’s obviously clueless. A country as heterogeneous as India would fall apart in days if one region/culture tried to impose itself on the others. Even within each of the the three major religions there’s a multitude of differences. India doesn’t even have a national language, since the southern regions wouldn’t want Hindi.

    • Replies: @MEexpert
  31. MEexpert says:

    Kashmir is disturbed, thanks largely to Pakistan’s efforts, the entire Hindu population was brutally purged from there. Hard to call riots an example of persecution, more like a predictable response to Muslim attacks, and it was followed by more.

    I don’t know who you are and where you are getting this information. Apparently, you don’t know anything about the history of India and its partition. Kashmir is an occupied territory by India just like Palestine is an occupied territory by Israel. The Muslims in Kashmir are treated the same way as the Palestinian by Israel. Oppressed people have no other recourse but to demonstrate against the cruel behavior of the oppressors.

    Kashmir is a disputed territory. Under the rules for the partition Kashmir was supposed to be a part of Pakistan. It has many more similarities to Palestine. Just as Palestine was gifted to Jews, Kashmir was gifted to India by Lord Mountbatten as well for the past services to the British Raj by the Maharajah and all attempts by the Kashmiris to gain independence from India have been brutally suppressed by the Indian government.

    Hard to call riots an example of persecution, more like a predictable response to Muslim attacks, and it was followed by more.

    This statement doesn’t even make sense. You have it backward. It is the Muslims who are being attacked by the Indian military.

  32. MEexpert says:

    Mister you are totally clueless. Yes there are many different languages in India but Hindi is the official National language of India.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Anonymous
  33. Marcus says:

    No. Hindus have lived in Kashmir for millennia until the Pakistani backed ethnic cleansing
    Btw all of Kashmir would probably be part of Pakistan if it hadn’t decided to preemptively invade, prompting the Kashmiri maharaja to ask for India’s assistance.

    • Replies: @MEexpert
  34. Ahem..

    Non Muslim %population of Pakistan, ~20%
    Muslim %population of India ~12%

    1948 onwards:
    Non Muslim %population of Pakistan, ~3%
    Muslim %population of India ~12%

    Who? Whom?

    Indians are better programmers;
    Pakistanis are better pogrommers.

    • Replies: @raphee
  35. @Anatoly Karlin

    Indian politics is Machiavellian.
    Read Kautilya’s Arthashastra – Or Vishakadatta’s play about him, Mudra-rakshasa.

  36. MEexpert says:

    Wikipedia is not fact checked. Anybody can write anything on it. Whatever ethnic cleansing was done was done by Hindus.

    The criterion on which the partitioin took place was the ethnic majority. In Kashmir there were more Muslims than non-Muslims and should have gone to Pakistan. But the Maharajah was non-Muslim hence his call for help.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  37. Marcus says:

    Then google it ffs, the entire Hindu population was brutally expelled, they had been living there since long before Islam.
    The maharaja was forced to ask for help because Pakistan preemptively sent tribal savages to Kashmir, otherwise all of Kashmir would be in Pakistan. They made their bed, now they can deal with it. Also the Muslim ruler of mostly non-Muslim Hyderabad tried to avoid joining India against the wishes of his population.

  38. Ivan says:

    There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India. At that time the Hindus were divided and weak. They are much more united now. If Partition were attempted today, Pakistan will be left with much smaller territory. Certainly they will not have the Indus basin. Pakistanis and their supporters ought to be reconciled with history, just as Indians are with theirs.

    • Replies: @denk
  39. denk says:

    Ivan you are a fucking moron,
    blaming the ‘chicoms’ support for every indian separatist movement without the slightest evidence !
    Typical Indian m.o.,
    Robber crying out robbery !

    In any case,

    Did the ‘chicoms’ order the likes of Assam Rifles to shoot at unarmed civilians ?

    or gang rape defenceless teens and grandmas ?

    or commit all those custodian deaths ?

    fake encounters executions ?

    Extra judicial executions ?

    wholesale genocides in Assam, Nagaland, Manipur, Tripura, Kashmir…..?

  40. denk says:

    ‘There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.’ [sic]

    Then why do you hang on like dear life to that infamous MCMAHON LINE as the ‘legit’ border bet India/China ?

    you’r not only a fucking moron but a god damned hypocrite to boot !


  41. Karl says:

    6 KA > I wonder if Muslim Brotherhood came to power by killing Coptics

    Ask the Copts. There are remnants still around.

    The MB is not big in places where there is any significant amount of Shia to fight back.

    Example: Bahrain

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  42. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Diversity sucks.

    India proves it.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  43. Alden says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Hindus despise Muslims, Christians and Sikhs on the grounds that they were once low caste scum who converted to raise themselves out of the caste system.

    I’m more interested in the American caste system known as affirmative action preferences. In the USA caste system White hetero American goyim are the lowest caste, unemployable untouchables.

  44. jivilov says:

    Gee, wonder why I haven’t heard about this plan for conversion-or-else on CNN or BBC. Maybe I missed someting on Fareed Zakaria’s latest global dump on Trump.

  45. @Anatoly Karlin

    Since Pakistan exterminated almost all its non-Muslims, clearly it is innocent of Fascism.

    I wonder if the best solution for India and countries in similar straits would be to follow the Saudi example and make the practice of Islam illegal. Of course when doing so the BJP would likely make Christianity illegal too, which seems unnecessary as there is no physical Christian threat to India. Freedom of religion for non-genocidal religions seems like a good idea.

  46. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Is anon a hindu? Wow that would explain alot.

  47. @Marcus

    Thanks, this is an interesting and useful tidbit.

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  48. berserker says:

    Perhaps you could add a sentence or two about the invasion of “India” by Mohammedans and how many Hindus were killed in that invasion.

  49. Ram says:

    The Hindus had suffered 600 million deaths directly because of Muslim rule as reported recently. It is obviously not Hindu paranoia.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  50. Anonymous [AKA "darealyst"] says:

    So should Hindus allow the fifth column of Islam to rise within its nations? Muslims at time of partition were 10% of India, now they have multiplied themselves to 20% at break(somebodypart) speeds and would’ve soon invariably organised politically. The blaring Islamic calls to prayer would’ve soon followed.

    Tolerance of intolerance is a fool’s errand. India is abutted on both sides by the Islamist states of Pakistan and Bangladesh. I recall the 1971 genocide of indigenous Bangladeshi Hindus of which 300 000 were slaughtered and 8 to 10 million ethnically cleansed, back up the Padma-Ganges. I have not even touched on the Mughal barbarism of Aurangzeb or the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits and Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Christians and Parsis of Pakistan. BJP is just intent on not seeing Hindu India fall prey to yet more Islamic barbarism.

  51. Clyde says:

    Obviously Europe does not have the balls to counteract Islam. Seems the Hindus do, so good for them. Any people or group that acts against Islam is fine by me. Islam is always dangerous and subversive. This all goes back to their false prophet who racked up thousands of kills in his lifetime. This is why Islamic preachers have success in Europe prisons.

  52. Agent76 says:

    November 21st, 2015 Fascists Running America Endorse Nazism

    America didn’t eliminate the scourge of fascism in WW II. It shifted its headquarters from Berlin and Tokyo to Washington.

  53. Agent76 says:

    “Who controls the issuance of money controls the government!” Nathan Meyer Rothschild

    June 13, 2016 Which Corporations Control The World?

    A surprisingly small number of corporations control massive global market shares. How many of the brands below do you use?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  54. DanC says:

    To paraphrase that old saying “People who live by the sword shall die by the sword,” and nowhere is this more true than in India.

    It’s hard for us Americans to imagine a country where grievances a thousand years old are still being redressed and fought out, but the Indians are still experiencing aftershocks from the Moghul invasions.

    The Moghuls made modern genocidists look like amateurs.

    Not the Germans, the Soviets, even Mao himself at 60 million could come close to the numbers the Moghuls achieved. 200 million deaths is the approximate number people have calculated from the records.

    The Moghuls didn’t waste time on things like transporting people to camps or prisons and then killing them, or slaughtering them with weapons onsite and throwing them in in mass graves. A favorite way of intimidating kingdoms they were invading to submit was to choose a town of a size easy to surround, say 10,,000 to 50,000 people, trap everyone inside and burn the town to the ground with everyone in it.

    The invasions radically changed hinduism from the peacable, philosophical religions that spawned Buddhism, to a hardened, radicalized, fundamentalist creed that underlies the Hindu nationalist movements today.

    And it persisted: just read about the Muslim depradations of the Hindu serf population in Hyderabad princely state during the Indian independence struggles.

    The Hindus originated that famous concept of Karma, and it has mutated into a real bitch!

    Karma is coming for you, Moghuls!

    And then of course, the violent Hindu nationalists shall in their turn suffer their own violent retribution. But that’s for a century other than our own.

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @raphee
  55. Zenarchy says:

    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of “nationalists” – ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    – gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    – weed was always legal, and even alcohol – the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters – was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    – non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    – Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don’t do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it’s just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

  56. You miss the point. Our domestic Antifas don’t necessarily want to beat fascists. They want to beat white people. Any not them will do.

  57. joe webb says:

    right, just finished a book on the Falange.

    Punch a fascist and go to liberal/communist heaven, that is , California.

    Primo de Ribera, Antonio Jose…was a romantic …that was his worst crime. Given the communist onslaught of Spain, the Falange and the rests of the Right was essentially correct and Franco’s manipulations of the various forces of the Right, including the Falange, probably steered Spain in the right direction and avoided more hatreds and bloodshed. etc.

    Franco was not a Falangist himself, he was a Catholic traditionalist, etc.

    Now, religious fanaticism should not be confused and folded into the political lexicon. Period.

    There are fanatics in both realms, but…

    The author of this piece needs some instruction in fundamentals. Still, any Spin gets its share of oohs and ahhhs, The F word…that gets attention. The C word, communist, gets a smile from the Subverted. However, despotic orientals miss the point.

    Joe Webb

  58. bunga says:

    (affirmative action for Muslims).
    can you cite any data to support this claim ? This is the regular usual trope BJP utters before election causes riot and increases it’s vote counts

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  59. Zenarchy says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Elst can be really dumb and naive sometimes, so be warned.

    On his FB page, he once asked – if it’s compulsory to study the Bhagavad Gita in the Netherlands in the 5th grade, why couldn’t it be so in India?

    He never realized the Gita news was a hoax.

  60. bunga says:

    1 In his Karamyog (2007), Modi writes that those castes fated to do sanitation work (clean gutters, sweep houses and cart away refuse), such as the Balmikis, do so as an “experience in spirituality.” “I do not believe that they have been doing this job just to sustain their livelihood,” says Modi, who anoints them to this despicable work because it is their “duty to work for the happiness of the entire society.” Subhash Gatade, who edits Sandhan, points out that when confronted by Modi’s logic a leading Dalit poet asked, “Why didn’t it occur to Modi that the spirituality involved in doing menial jobs hasn’t ever been experienced by the upper castes?”

    2 S Swamy ” wrote a newspaper article after a series of militant attacks in Mumbai. The article called for the demolition of 300 mosques, some built over temples, and argued that Muslims should be barred from voting in India unless they acknowledged their Hindu ancestry. The article led Harvard’s faculty to cancel his summer course offerings.

    Mr. Swamy, in an interview, was unapologetic about the article and restated his theory of Muslims in India being descended from Hindus. He added that he wished the Harvard faculty had at least given him a chance to make his case before canceling his courses.

    Few who know him say they believe he is really anti-Muslim, suggesting that his comments are aimed at building a support base among Hindu nationalists. “Swamy is a closet secularist,” Mr. Nalapat said”

    Where was Swamy when BJP was rampaging across Northern India starting from 1987 ?

    The BJP outfits carry out massacre and then claim it was in response to some muslim activities or Moghul’s actions from the past. That past is also preached and spread by the same BJP outfits. But the kicker is in the admission= He is building support among the Hindus !!! Next time someone will decide as Modi decided to ratchet up the pressure and kill the Muslims and the Dalits and Christian in large number – to build the base among the Hindus .

    • Replies: @Ivan
  61. Agent76 says:

    Oct 1, 2016 That time I went to the Pentagon and told them to cease and desist

    • Replies: @RobinG
  62. bunga says:

    1 ” That river had to be crossed, and I am glad it was crossed. Today Ayodhya is a non-issue, and far as the rest of us are concerned, the RSS can build their mandir a mile high. But then there is not much energy behind this since a lot of money is involve”

    It is a non issue in some fiction enriched mind This issue shows up every time there is election Right now this canard is raising it’s head again with fanatic Hindu outfit asking Muslim to elave or get converted

    By your own logic ( Ayodhya is a non-issue) may be the entire past on which BJP credo is based should be non issue as well.

    2 “They seem to have had no sense of irony, since in Bombay the same kind of religious Muslims burned Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ for insulting their scriptures.”

    Yes how many books have been banned How many writers been banished How many artists have been banished by Indian gov ? How many moves been stopped from being screened ?

    India gives the anti Muslim writer from Bangladesh home but bans the entry of the Indian artists born in India because of depiction of Hindu god in his art works

    India has banned book on Hinduism and has banned entry of those writers , has also prevented screening of films . India by banning Rushdie book has been following its tradition of book banning and public burning of book

    • Replies: @Ivan
  63. @Karl

    More than remnants of Copts I think. If there are 40 million in Egypt that’s a hell of a lot of potential refugees….

  64. @Anon

    If you keep the expression of the argument to that level of simplicity you could just as well say “diversity works: Australia proves it”.

  65. Anonymous [AKA "Zenith"] says:

    The Sangh Parivar acts in response to a real threat. The purges and mass killings of non-Muslims in neighboring Pakistan and Bangladesh have made it very clear that if the Muslims rise to power again in India, it will not be long before they start killing the rest of us.

  66. @Ivan

    Interesting connection between Kashmir and Pakidtan’s intended provocations. However I question your figures for the percentage of religious minorities in Pakistan in 1947 and now because you don’t take notice of the recreation of East Pakistan as the separate nation of Bangladesh several decades ago.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  67. @Marcus

    Don’t be hard on him even if he is rude. He’s only a Middle East expert after all – and only self-described as expert in anything. BTW did you notice Mr Singh’s extraordinary reported statement that Hindi was like the elder sister of all Indian languages being the closest relation to the mother of them all, Sanskrit? Codswallop! Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada of the Dravidian south are in a completely different non Aryan (Indo-European) language group.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  68. Seraphim says:

    @the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese

    This is a little tribute paid to the politically correct (so antifascist) meme that Christianity was the evilest colonial oppressor of ‘native’ peoples.
    The skirmishes with local population around the trading depots established in Kerala (with the permission of the local authorities) can hardly be called an invasion at all. The conversion of some local to Catholicism was not done through the methods of the Muslims. In fact, their converting efforts were directed at the local ‘Syrian’ Christians who were there since Saint Thomas.
    Not even the British expansion in India had the goal of converting the local populations. Commercial interests came first. The East India Company was little interested in proselytism.
    But, economic exploitations aside, the British rule came somewhat as a relief to India’s non-Muslims. V.S. Naipaul wrote in his book ‘Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples’: ‘The British period—two hundred years in some places, less than a hundred years in others—was a time of Hindu regeneration’. For them, returning to dhimmitude under the Islamic yoke once again was clearly a less attractive choice.

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  69. denk says:

    To all the murkkans who support india’s genocides on Muslims cuz
    Islam is always dangerous and subversive.’

    By now everybody and his dog ought to know who’r behind all those ‘radical islam jihadists’ , AQ, BOKO HARM, AL SHABAAB and its latest iteration, the ISIS.
    Thats right, its your very own CIA./RAW/MI6/MOSSAD.
    So berating the ‘chicoms’, ‘pakis’, ‘moslems’ is like barking up the wrong tree, !
    More like Robber crying robbery actually !

    Here’s a challenge,
    Do you have the cojones to do an ‘occupy langley’, aka ‘Terror Inc‘ ??

    Hey presto !
    No more ‘moslem terrorism’ ,result guaranteed.

    Not holding my breath,

    Then what about the genocides in Nagaland/Assam/Manipur ……. ?
    Those are christians./Hindus./…..
    Ivan , you call yourself a Catholic ?
    Where’r you when the dreaded Assam Rifles did those unspeakable things to the Christian girls in Naga,
    Oh I see, you were busy blaming the ‘chicoms‘ ?

    Or the genocide on the indigenuous indians ?
    Not the Apache, kid ,
    I mean the Adivasi. !

    or the genocide on the Sikhs ?

    Are those all ‘islamo terrorists‘ ?

    Spare us all these god damned Islamophobia !

    India is a fascist hell hole alright….just like its murkkan soul mate the unitedsnake.

    The proof is right here in the comments, Indians/murkkans embraced in an orgy of fascistic revelry.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  70. @Agent76

    Wrong Rothschild for a made up (in 1935) quote. The only thing it lends to your comment is the flavour of anti-Semitism by insinuation.

  71. @Zenarchy

    You write as though you know more about India than the casually interested educated non-Indian and then…

    “erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain”

    That’s at best Humpty Dumpty talk (as in Alice in Wonderland) but suggests madness. In decades of discussion with Indian friends I have never heard it suggested that the tiny corps of Brits who managed to rule India through Indian agents, civil servants, soldiers and employees were genocidal in either intent or effect. Even the modern cant use of the term by which some have suggested that Protectors of Aborigines, missionaries and social workers were engaged in cultural genocide seems remote from the activities of the East India Company and the later governmental types who tried to stop widow burning. So what’s your evidence for whatever you mean by “genocidal”?

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  72. @DB Cooper

    You are right about most people getting India wrong out of ignorance… You are a perfect example of it. To understand the land of the Dharma you would have to go through several birth and death cycles but then again as an untouchable, that is to say an outsider, you would not get the opportunity, not that you would want it as a man of the West. India has its own compulsion as to why they have built in hatred of Islam and its countless Hindu converts whose loyalty is to the Ummah first and to the nation second. You are afflicted with jaundice, thus you will view India and Hinduism in yellow color and not the correct shade saffron!

  73. @MEexpert

    Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Maldives are part and parcel of the Indian Subcontinent not the Arabian Peninsula… Islam was an unwelcomed import and its toxic effects are still felt to this day but a time is fast approaching when all scores will be settled. On the eve of the Partition of the Subcontinent, Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims gave a primer on what the mother of all civil war is going to look like by killing each other to the tune of one million in a month… And they did it with crude, hand made weapons. Either Islam will kill India or it’ll its final resting place!

  74. Ivan says:

    Hi Peter Lee,

    The screencap in the article is of L K Advani, another politician. Modi is a more hirsute fellow. Your article has in large measure, captured the truth.

  75. Ivan says:

    Why stop at 600 million? Round it up to a billion just for the heck of it. The entire population of the Earth at the end of the 19th century was about a billion plus. What fraction of that lived on the sub-continent? And this was during the Raj, extrapolate in backwards and one finds that the population could not have been more 200 million at any prior time given the productivity of the land, including that when Muslims were rulers.

  76. Ivan says:

    Moghuls were descended from the Mongols. They were equal opportunity slaughterers. Mongols have that kind of reputation but they were also businessmen after a fashion. Why would they want to kill all that people that they needed to work the fields after the spate of conquests. They had to have the goods and taxes. The Muslim rulers were not stupid, conversion to Islam meant that the erstwhile dhimmi could not be taxed, his daughters could not be taken. Hence it was in the interest of the Muslim ruling class that rhetoric aside, fewer than necessary Hindus converted. It made good economic sense to tax farm instead.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims in India are converts, voluntary in the sense that when the village headman converted they converted along with him. They seem to have done it for reasons of economics and to escape the oppression of the upper castes. The average Muslim in India is a dusky fellow, he doesn’t look like Shah Rukh Khan by a long shot.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  77. Ivan says:

    Too bad that you couldn’t do anything much about us, but let us know where you live and we’ll see if you can live up to your mouth.

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  78. Ivan says:

    Subramaniam Swamy is the Zhirinovsky of India. The man seems to have the same issues that plague the educated Brahmin, leading to an inability to keep his mouth shut. He clearly is not a political animal, since he has made himself highly unpopular in his home state of Tamil Nadu, by his remarks on fellow Tamils wanting to carry on their ‘Jallikattu’ or bull wrangling tradition. His observations that they are low-life hoodlums didn’t go down well back home.

  79. Ivan says:

    The BJP has brought up Ayodhya again for the UP state elections, but it seems that almost all the Hindus there don’t give a hill of beans for this. Pavlovian conditioning is subject to diminishing returns. The average Indian is a sturdy bourgeois, and would rather have something in his pocket instead. Modi fooled a lot of people, there and and elsewhere, by promising the moon. Most people would rather see the Rs 15 lakhs (around \$20,000 ) that he promised in the national elections. Failing that they have to come up with at least free smartphones or tablets. The electorate will milk the parties for all the electoral baksheesh it is worth.

    In this election the Congress seems to have taken the high road of not pandering to religious minorities, here the Muslims. I have always wished that they refuse to appeal to to sectarian interests in order to maintain their old status as the leading secular party of the Republic of India.

    India is facing many years of very low, job generating capacity, and this I believe will see the BJP out in the next country wide elections.

  80. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    While mediocre in two South Indian languages myself, Hindi itself – like another bastard language of many fathers, English – is considered impure by some sectors, since it has numerous importations and aliterations from of all things, the Urdu type of languages. The languages of the hated Muslim invaders! So much for the language bigots, and their claim of nativeness.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  81. Ivan says:

    denk, my insane Chicom friend, I am the last person to defend casual brutality. Some decades ago I heard from a friend who travelled in Nagaland, that a man came up to him and told him that he was raped by an Indian soldier. My friend was rather shocked by this, and I don’t see any reason for any man to claim this most cruel of assaults on his own dignity, unless it is true.

    • Replies: @denk
  82. Zenarchy says:

    The massacre in Kerala was one of the most brutal ones, but let’s leave that aside. You have a point there.

    But you should acknowledge that the Portuguese did not allow anyone to remain in Goa who did not convert to catholicism. Please google it yourself (too busy right now). If I am wrong, do correct me…

  83. Zenarchy says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Probably not the best word, I admit.

    Genocidal not in deliberately killing Indians, but in the sense of not caring whether millions died from hunger due to pressuring them to grow opium poppy instead of food, while at the same time raising taxes from 10 percent to 50 percent. It’s like some of Stalin’s actions, which are only partially genocide in the conventional sense.

    The Great Bengali famine would be a good place to start a research:

    “In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country.[10] As the famine approached its height in April 1770, the Company announced that the land tax for the following year was to be increased by a further 10 percent.
    Sushil Chaudhury writes that the destruction of food crops in Bengal to make way for opium poppy cultivation for export reduced food availability and contributed to the famine.[11] The company is also criticised for ordering the farmers to plant indigo instead of rice, as well as forbidding the “hoarding” of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.
    By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the company and its agents. The company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes.”

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  84. Zenarchy says:

    I usually explain to Hindus that the forced conversions aren’t coming from “Christians”, but from particular Christian groups, and that in Goa, Christians are actually gradually diminishing in numbers. They make the same mistake as the people who equate Islam with Salafism.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  85. Zenarchy says:

    You’re right, I now think.

    I’m really busy, so I took mere 5 minutes to google, but it seems true affirmative action was just a bunch of promises from the Congress, and nothing seemed to have materialized out of them.
    My bad.
    For now, at least.

  86. Ivan says:

    It is not strictly a ‘forced conversion’ when an erstwhile Hindu becomes a Christian for monetary reasons. More accurately one can say that he was bribed. But there are and have always been genuine conversions to faith in Jesus Christ. You won’t find many Catholics particularly happy about the situation, since many of these converts are then showered with educational and employment opportunities denied to the long standing members of the church. These types of conversions have largely died down, since there is little point in ‘converting’ Hindus who revert back to their old religion once they have garnered the opportunities. As always with the BJP grifters, they come up with old wives tales, although they themselves are hardly aware of anyone who was forcibly ‘converted’.
    When the the ‘reconversion’ – back to Mother Bharat drama – was being enacted about a year or so ago by the Sangh clowns, Muslims and Christians with a sense of humour agreed among themselves that if they had to they will convert but only on condition that they can go in at the lower caste levels. This is to take advantage of the educational and employment opportunities offered by the government to the lower castes. That put a crimp on the BJP morons, since it potentially hits the opportunities of their existing supporters. The BJP is a party of clowns that has as its saving grace, a measure economic rationalism. But that will not be enough to save the buggers if they ignite communal tensions once again.

    • Replies: @Zenarchy
  87. Anonymous [AKA "v v anand"] says:

    (a) Sorry, I cant agree. I am a South Indian and we care two hoots for Hindi. In 1965, there was virtually a civil war, in Tamilnadu state when The then Central Govt. ordered that” a working knowledge of Hindi would be essential ” for a Govt. job. Maybe, a thousand people died in 1965 in Tamilnadu, the Chief Ministers of the three other Southern states dashed to Delhi and persuaded then then PM Lal Bahadur Shastri to withdraw that order. And those golden words about “essential language knowledge” have remained unrepeated ever since then.

    (b) That said, India has evolved its language policy gradually and with accomodation and Hindi has spread due to commerce and is mostly accepted. To tell the truth, no Hindi-speaker in 1965 had any designs on job-grabbing through language-exclusive rules. So, understanding has grown. The evolution of the language divide in India is an example of how even the religious divides in India and South Asia are capable of being moderated and resolved gradually . As for you westerners and non-South-Asians, my suggestion to you folks is to keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India. The Arabs ruled Spain for 7 centuries . Today, there is not a single Muslim in Spain. As for forcible conversion, last year there was a landmark event in Bangladesh, when in a trial relating to the 1971 massacres under Pak army rule in then-East-Pakistan , one Dilawar Hossain Saeedi was sentenced to death for, inter alia, forcible conversion of 20 Hindus to Islam in 1971. So, in a largely Muslim country, a largely Muslim Court Bench sentenced a man to death for, among other crimes, for forcible conversion! As far as I know this was the first time in world history that forcible conversion was adjudged as a crime against humanity. But that happened in South Asia. How much penalty should be given to the Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millenium ? And has entirely captured two continents in the process ! (In the Bangladesh case, the only contribution of the Western elite is to berate Bangladesh for “shortcomings “in the trials. One Lord Carlile, a lawyer in London even has the audacity to write a long article to say that “forcibly converting 20 people is not itself a crime against humanity” Apparently you must repeatedly do it to qualify for punishment !

    (c) An additional factor is that in India there is huge diversity and each indivudual is himself diverse with multiple identities. Thus, caste allegiances criss-cross state boundaries. And division between caste groups prevents consolidation of regional loyalties and softens the inter-regional differences. Thus, the enthusuasm for Hindi is largely driven by upper-caste Hindus in the Hindi-speaking North,. Now, when the subaltern classes, or backward castes have mobilised politically, in the very same Hindi regions, these new forces have no time for Hindi fanaticism. In UP, in the HIndi heartland, in Sitapur, the Dalit leaders (represent the oppressed untouchables) have even erected a statue for English language, which they feel is better for liberating them. Another example relates to the huge river water dispute between the states of Karnataka and Tamilnadu leading to protests and riots. But the Chief Minister of Karnataka is a Kuruba by caste, a caste spread over also, incidentally, the neighbouring state of Tamilnadu. And when an “All India Kuruba Convention “was held , as it happened., in Tamilnadu , who else is the Chief Guest but the Honourable Chief Minister of Karnataka , who is the Kuruba casteman of highest prominence presently ! I wont romanticise it, but these are elements that soften various conflicts in India, which an outsider may find very novel.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Wizard of Oz
  88. Zenarchy says:

    I believe you that we’re talking about bribing more than actual force. Even Islam spread more successfully through extra taxation for infidels than through violence (forced conversions are explicitly banned by the Quran). I also believe you because the examples given to me were always very vague, and negative personal experiences didn’t amount to much more than the typical new-convert-zeal, which happens even here through Hare Krishnas. The principle survives the religious divide, so I can imagine some new Christians being annoying. Even vegans tend to be annoying for a few years at least.
    Anyway, I have good wishes for India, but I don’t like either of the 2 parties very much. Seriously, Ivan: among the 7, 8 BJP Indians I know, at least 5, 6 seem more intelligent than Modi. But I’ve been told that in India it’s usually more about being “powerful”.
    Any possible alternatives?
    Aam Aadmi?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  89. raphee says:

    Muslim population of east Punjab ( the biggest concentration of Muslims on Indian side) preparation….35%

    Muslim population of East Punjab post partition….3%.

  90. raphee says:

    And where do I read this. Please give a source other than an Indian author.

  91. Seraphim says:

    @keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India

    You should keep the history of the “Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millennium” out if you wish to understand the ‘West’. Not only because it is an outrageous falsification of history, but that ‘whataboutism’ is the least effective way to exculpate Islam of its murderous rampages through the world for more than a millennium.

  92. Ivan says:

    I have to say that the phenomenon of aggrieved Hindu nationalism as represented by the upper class of the BJP, compounded of real and imaginary greviances came as a surprise to me. While not nearly as pernicious as that of the various Muslim varieties holding the field currently, the phenomenon seem to have the same roots.

    It’s a mechanism of self defense and actualization in coping with with the reality that one is nowhere as good – almost exclusively as measured in material terms – as one imagines, oneself to be.

    India is a patchwork of nationalities held together by the inherent tolerance of the Hindu religion. The British Raj gave India the physical and administrative it has today. We have developed in that space. Any long term attempt to impose an intolerant strain of Hinduism on India as it is constituted today will be met with various separatisms both physical and spiritual. The wheels will come off before reaching their destination.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Wizard of Oz
  93. @Anonymous

    Thanks for a lot of interesting information, my thanks only slightly qualified by exaggeration such as there not being a single Muslim in Spain. That might have been almost true in the 16th century and, the odd diplomat excepted, for four centuries after that but not now. As for your kicking the old and weak when they are down by exaggerating the intolerant excesses of the Catholic Church for (actually more than) a thousand years, well an Anglican atheist will let Seraphim spell out the objections.

    I have found India fascinating since my first visit 32 years ago, and before when reading Richard Aldington’s biography of the Duke of Wellington which made a recent visit to Tipu Sultan’s fortress and summer palace a special pleasure (the restoration of the latter more than the ruins of the latter). More recently it occurred to me that Bangalore becoming Bengaluru was hardly the work of citizens of a Hindi supremacist country. Not that having to deal with anyone in Bangalore who didn’t speak competent English was a problem until I had to tell my Uber driver to the airport where to pick me up when he only spoke Kannada.

    You confirm btw that I was right 30 years ago in criticising discussions of “Asian” immigration by reference to there being at least as much diversity of almost everything within India alone as in the whole of Europe. It would be sad to see Hindu nationalism grow.

    • Replies: @Anon
  94. @Ivan

    Thanks for confirming my modestly held views and knowledge.

  95. Seraphim says:

    And English remained practically the official language of India.

    “The constitution requires the authoritative text of all laws, including Parliamentary enactments and statutory instruments, to be in English, until Parliament decides otherwise. Parliament has not exercised its power to so decide, instead merely requiring that all such laws and instruments, and all bills brought before it, also be translated into Hindi, though the English text remains authoritative…
    The constitution provides that all proceedings in the Supreme Court of India, the country’s highest court and the High Courts, shall be in English. Parliament has the power to alter this by law, but has not done so. However, in many high courts, there is, with consent from the president, allowance of the optional use of Hindi….”

    English remains the language of higher education, business, call centers. It’s the language of the Indian diaspora. It is the language of predilection for the dissemination of the Indian culture!
    India remains a member of the British Commonwealth (cosmetically called ‘The Commonwealth of Nations’). And the most popular sport in India is the quintessential British sport, cricket, with a fanatical following who made it into a Hindu cult and erects temples to ‘the god of cricket’ Tendulkar.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  96. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Hey, no fair. We get yelled at when we send Muslims out of the country and again when we bring them in.

    Just can’t seem to catch a break …

  97. @Ivan

    Thanks for contributing credible information in the course of a pretty civil discussion. One of your points reminds of what was said to me by an urbane Indian-American businessman on a recent flight when I amused him with my experiences of Indian bureaucracy recently and over many years and observed that seeing Gogol’s “The Government Inspector” performed by an Indian company made me think India and Russia would be finalists to win the gold medal for bureaucracy. His point was that insisting on, or making up, petty rules gave people a little power that was otherwise lacking in their lives. (I would like to be able to tell him about the permit Raj that prevailed within the private institution that hosted me very warmly and hospitably later in India).

    • Replies: @Ivan
  98. @Ivan

    Oops! Google “are hindi and urdu the same language?” and you will understand what questions your comment has prompted.

  99. @Zenarchy

    Just the very brief comment that you are conflating maybe ten generations in a rapidly changing world from one where the glimmerings of Victorian morality were just beginning to appear in late 18th century agitation against slavery and impeachments of Englishmen who had misused East India Company power in India to one where modernity had allowed, inter alia, a vast growth in subcontinental population etc etc. and international declarations of human rights.

    btw in the course of listening to heterodox scientists on global climate change I learned that one of the many underexplored natural cycles going back hundreds of years coincided with devastating famines approx every 60 years in India….

  100. denk says:

    First off, I despise liar .
    Still waiting for your evidence of ‘chicoms support of NE insurgency’.

    The mass rapes of men/women/minors/seniors in the ‘seven sisters’ and Kashmir, socalled ‘disturbed area’ ,aint ‘casual crimes’, its a premeditated, systematic tactics to humiliate the occupied people,. Its worst than insane, cuz its a cold blooded , sadistic calculus to break the morale of the resistance to Indian colonial rule.

    Not only are the NE folks trampled on and abused in their own land by the Indian occupation armies, when they go to the indian heartland to tudy or work they are also marked for violence and sex crimes.
    Why ?
    cuz they look different from the heartlanders, who call the NE folks ‘chinkie terrorists’.
    ‘chinkie’ cuz NE folks are Chinese/Mongoliod people while Indians are Dravidians./Aryans.
    ‘terrorists’ cuz they have been fighting against the Indian occupation army since 1947.

    So how did the ‘seven sisters’ landed in the Indian map in the first place ?
    Not only are the people there simply dont belong, even the land look like a sore thumb sticking out of the indian land mass on a map !

    When the Brits granted Indian independence, all the ‘seven sisters’ also declared their own independence.
    Alas, Nehru reponse by sending in a massive army to invade the seven regions, including those who werent even in the British Raj . !
    Delhi even boasted that ‘there’d be one jawan for every tree in Nagaland’ !
    What followed was decades of genocidal wars which wiped out hundreds of thousands of NE people, devasted most of their pristine land, mass rapes of untold savagery.

    ‘There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.’

    Indeed !
    You’ve certainly out done your Brit mentors in empire building
    In your own back yard at least.
    With the rapacious murkkan empire as your mentor now, Who know, perhaps the sky is the limit from now on.

    Indian media make a hue and cry over the almost daily sexual crimes in Delhi etc, in fact those are like child’s play compared to the untold atrocities committed by the Indian state against the ‘seven sisters’ and Kashmir.

    You call yourself a christian and humanist, what’ve you done to oppose Delhi state terrorism against its ‘own people’, other than blaming it all on the ‘chicoms’ ?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  101. Ivan says:

    English is the language that gives Indians the urbanity they have, limited though it sometimes is. Resentment at the effortless superiority by virtue of an English language education does play out in some of the jingoism we see among the BJP bakthans.

    Hell, the Great Trigonometric Survey of India, and the associated maritime surveys conducted by agents of the British Empire limned the Indian physical space.

  102. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    The Gogolesque situation in India has improved beyond recognition over the last 30 years, at least since the reforms of 1991. I can relate to the many horror stories as an Indian passing through airport customs during the 80s. The businessman had captured the petty mindset accurately. I will add though that much of the power that petty officers have come to wield is a function of gross shortages in India. This is largely because we are a very resource poor country for the size of the population.
    The opportunities for personal enrichment comes by only rarely and one has to grab it, since to occupy that position in the first place had come at a considerable cost to the holder of that position. For example if the government were to announce a scheme to provide clean water to a section of a city, you can be sure that those with money or connections will get it first even today, leaving perhaps little for the rest. But this is because there is both an objective shortage of water, and that the poorer sections have no intention of paying for it. Hence the markets work by shifting that water to the higher bidders.
    India is actually economically optimal. Have you seen food wasted in India? Successive Indian governments had to provide for the welfare of an additional 7.5 million mouths for many years. We had to escape the Malthusian trap, but doing so without killing off the peasantry. This was largely due to the inherent humanity of the founding fathers of India, who saw every Indian as a human being in his own right and not as a factor of production as in some other countries. Hence the stage of primitive accumulation was a long one. We are now operating at the limit of our production possibilities given our endowment. Modi because he floated with the growth in Gujarat consequent on the economic reforms of the 90s, thinks that he has a magic wand to induce growth. There is no such thing but we will just muddle along.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  103. denk says:

    Outcry when some perverts gang rape a woman in Delhi,
    Silence on state terrorism including mass rape in NE against the ‘chinkie faced terrorists’ and in Kashmir against the ‘moslem terrorists’.

    India, your name is hypocrisy.
    Just like your soul mate uncle SHAM.


  104. @Ivan

    Good to talk to a civilised realist. There are too many prickly chauvinists about.

    Your “we’ll just muddle along” is a reminder that India anf Britain were a better fit in character than a lot of empires achieve between rulers and ruled. Having ancestors from all over the British Isles I allow myself to notice also that the English and Irish are remarkably alike despite their mutual histories. But being a crude colonial Australian I have to admit to looking at the cricket playing wotld and saying that Englishmen and Indians had the gentlemanly character in common of being good losers 🙂 But times change and I gather Australia will be lucky to win one of the four tests it is due to play in India in May and June.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  105. DB Cooper says:

    Well, news just broke that India has been keeping a captured Chinese soldier for 54 years. This is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of POW. India has some answering to do.

    Adding insult to injury, India is the aggressor in the 1962 war.

    • Replies: @denk
  106. denk says:


    Thats an unsubstantiated accusation…. from the Indian Express at that. !

    Look kid,
    What I want is irrefutable evidence, like so…

    Modi’s covert overt operation in cahoot with CIA to foment terrorism in China,

    ‘Chinese dissidents of all hues are flying in, including, curiously, a US-based Chinese activist who was behind the Tiananmen Square incidents of 1989. (Deccan Herald)
    From all appearance, India is dusting up an old CIA file that had worked on the democracy [sic] project to stifle the communist system in China in its cradle. This is a plausible meaning of what is unfolding.

    From a mile, the participants at the Track II in Dharamsala stinks like CIA “assets”.

    But then, Modi government is also selective. It steers clear of promoting democracy in Saudi Arabia and the UAE or the Central Asian states ‘………

    Or How about some charity at home eh Modi ?
    Kashmir, Nagaland, Manipur, Assam….

    What the Modi government is doing, by the yardstick of inter-state relationships, will only look a blatant interference in the internal affairs of China. The world community at large is devoted to the Westphalian principle of national sovereignty. The Modi government is crossing the ‘red line’

    Modi didnt even bother to hide what amounts to state sponsored terrorism against China, an act of war no less, such arrogance !
    With washington patronage, he seems to be getting a swelling head these days.

    a friendly advice,
    ad hominem would get you no where, only make you looks even more silly.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  107. denk says:
    @DB Cooper

    That was in stark contrast to China’s treatment of Indian POW.

    Beijing declared a voluntary ceasefire, pulled back its troops after routing the intruders, never taking an inch of the disputed area which led to the conflict.
    Even the pro Indian brits had to grudgingly concede that
    ‘this must be the first time a great power doesnt take advantage of a gain in the battle field’.

    All indian POW were promptly released after their injuries were properly taken care of, with their rifles, artilleries cleaned and oiled !

    If the Chinese figure that such magnanimity would induce good will from the Indians they were sorely mistaken.
    India like Japan continues to be willing compradors of western imperialists and repay Chinese kindness with more treacheries.
    WTF !

    That PLA soldier wasnt even a POW, he happened to strayed across the poorly marked border AFTER the war.
    The Indians grabbed him and kept him prisoner for propaganda sake.
    What a shame !

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  108. DB Cooper says:

    This goes to show the characters of the two peoples. Chinese are magnanimous even to people who have wronged them, including the Japanese and the Indian. Indian on the other hand are petty and vindictive.

    • Replies: @denk
  109. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Oz, the whole trick of being a ‘good loser’ is summarised in Eccleiastes

    I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favour to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  110. Ivan says:


    a) If the British in their heyday wanted to, they could have taken Tibet or made it a protectorate based on their ideas of accidental, absent-minded empire building. There were Indian kingdoms that extended into the Tibetan Plateau at one time or another, and the British with their usual cunning could have taken up the cause of the Hindus beyond the Himalayas. They did not, primarily because of their detente with the Russian Bear. The Qings could have done nothing about it. Then on which side of the ledger do you think Tibet would have fallen?

    b) And don’t give me that malarkey about tributes from Tibetan, or Vietnamese kings, or Filipino chieftains entitling China to exercise suzerainty over these lands. Wasn’t China at one time under the thumb of the Mongols? Why are the Chinese not ruled from Ulan Bator these days?

    c) The Indians had some cachet with the West and the rest of the world at one time in the 50s and 60s. They worked to end the isolation of China , yet all they got in return was rank ingratitude and contempt on numerous occasions. And we don’t have to back that far to recount some: The invasion of Vietnam, timed to coincide with then FM Vajpayee’s visit in 1979. The sheer mendacity of the world’s then leading proliferator of nuclear and missile technology to all sundry, opposing the Indian right to develop nuclear weapons in 1998 is audacious and mind-boggling. BTW, the Indians can build ICBMs in short order, but we prefer to keep only China and Pakistan within range.

    d) Give respect and gain respect, we Indians may be fools and grifters but we have our own life. Have you come to a proper accounting of China’s crimes? Start with their unstinting support of the murderous Khmer Rouge when they ran the Killing Fields. Or perhaps not, since the millions dead since the Communists came to power have had no reckoning. Continue harping instead on the cruelties of the Japanese, Indians and everyone else.

    • Replies: @denk
  111. denk says:

    Ah, What about china ?

    I take it that this is your…
    Tacit admission of a fascist India, No ?


    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  112. @Ivan

    If only you had quoted the KJV you would have been on my shortlist for Bishop if Mysore (but you’d better brush up your Kannada in these populist times if you want the prize of such a climatically blessed See, though in the ancient Catholic/Anglican tradition theological studies would be optional) 🙂

    • Replies: @Ivan
  113. Ivan says:

    Good morning, denk!

  114. @denk

    Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance if you were e.g. to venture some scholarly evaluation of which elements from old civilisations (including IQ and its distribution if you like) are/have been most conducive to peaceful or at least effective transition to the post Malthusian prosperity, longevity and sustainability which is surely the highest hope outside the realms of ISIS and the Ayatollahs. Though I am one who would be a Dr Pangloss believing that millions of bright Chinese and Indians are going to invent a marvellous future I know that it is unlikely that I shall have enough years ahead of me to be sure that it comes to pass without human folly and adherence to primitive old ways of thought and irrational belief wreaking destruction.

    • Replies: @denk
  115. denk says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance’ [sic]

    wizard the senile old fart has been crapping all over the place, your antics was even discussed in some other sites.

    A kind reminder,
    you were banished to my ‘bozo file‘ long ago, remember. ?

    I suggest you two can book a room to continue with your mumbo jumbo instead of wasting bandwidth here !


    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  116. Art says:

    What a frigging mess! Things sure have gone to hell fast.

    It is not a good time to be a democrat (small “d”). In country after country voters internally have been turned into mini tribes that hate each other by the Jews. The world scene is the same.

    Europe is eyeball to eyeball with Russia. China is eyeball to eyeball with India. Sunni are eyeball to eyeball with Shia. The US is eyeball to eyeball with everyone. And no one is giving a millimeter.

    It is time for Trump to start talking peace – not belligerence.

    I am advocating talking peace and trade – not a big stick.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. Only the Jew are enjoying this.

    p.s. More debt, more arms sales – all the chaos – how sweet it is for the Big Jews.

    • Replies: @denk
  117. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity of the place. But keep a sharp lookout for your business interests, just in case.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @denk
  118. @Ivan

    Thank you. I’ve heard some bad stories though I’ve only lost much money as a result of not being close to the action in US investments! Fortunately an English friend gave a critical warning before I could make the fatal step of signing up with the shysters at Lloyds when they realised that there were long tail American liabilities, principally for asbestos related diseases, and decided to look for colonial rubes 12000 miles away as “names”.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  119. @denk

    Interesting to diagnose the causes of such uncouth and unintelligent trolling. Could it be malice towards the Chinese by way of a false flag operation? No East Asian of my acquaintance is so boorish or undignified. Questions to be answered include:
    1. Is it cognitive deficit or deliberate misdirection that “denk” claims to have found me on other sites when in fact I have never commented on other sites?
    2. Is it cognitive deficiency or mere careless bluster which has “denK’ claiming to have relegated me to the Commenters to Ignore category – if his reference to bozo file means anything – while appearing to believe, contrary to fact, that I would have known that, and also ignoring his own apparent censorship of my comments?!
    3. What does the childish “hehehehe” signify. Is it a sign that none of it is serious and that only time filling for the writer and timewasting for the reader is intended?

    As I cannot believe that any civilised Asian is the non-trolling author I am led to infer perhaps a male of Chinese and African parentage who is so resentful of and disturbed by his non acceptance in Chinese society that he takes his revenge by false flag trolling. Then again the “denk” moniker is vaguely suggestive of a Dutch connection and therefore perhaps part Indonesian Chinese family. Whichever, the implication in #120 that he is in the prime of life also implies that he Is unemployed, and most likely unemployable, which goes a long way to explain his demeaning exhibition of himself on UR.

    I hope that it is clear to “denk” that self-respect should result in the current persona disappearing for good.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Ivan
  120. denk says:
    @DB Cooper

    At least the murkkans apologised for their
    crime against Jp ,

    To think that Delhi was the aggressor in the first place. !

  121. denk says:

    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    • Replies: @Art
  122. denk says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    My apology.

    I thought you were a paid troll.
    May be you’r just a senile old fart.


    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  123. @denk

    So you are a liar as well as stupid. Clearly you did not think I was a paid troll.

  124. Art says:

    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    Yes – both Jew money controlled.

    My point is that Israel is the only country thriving in all this chaos – the only winner.

    The worst country, the least moral country, is gaining – how sad.

    Peace — Art

    • Replies: @denk
  125. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Oz, you’d be better off ignoring the arse.

    • Replies: @denk
  126. Ivan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Wow you are in a dangerous business as a Lloyd’s ‘name’ or related activity. I don’t have the courage, even had I the money.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  127. @Ivan

    Fortunately I asked a lot of questions and was dealing with an agent who had been a solicitor and was honest enough to tell me the truth. So, though some of my friends and acquaintances got stung for latge amounts and in some cases even lost old family estates which had been their collateral I escaped.

  128. denk says:

    *India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity [sic] of the place*

    Hey holly man,
    Do you work in the Indian Propaganda Bureau ?

    Did you ask whether the Nagas wanted to join in this wonderful ‘diversity’ of India ?

    Do we look like Indians?’

    ‘The three million Nagas who inhabit the region are of Sino-Mongolian origin. Culturally, linguistically and physically they have more in common with the Karen people in Burma or even the Chinese than with the Indians. Indian troops – many from the notoriously undisciplined Assam Rifles – are taught that the Nagas are cannibals and head-hunters who must be dealt with accordingly. The result is pitiful. ‘

  129. denk says:

    Hey holy man,

    Keep that ass kissing pervert to yourself , moron.

  130. denk says:

    What about the MICC ??

  131. prasad says:

    2 questions to everyone here..

    1. If Hindus destroyed Vatican and built a temple there, would that be ok for Christians and liberals and left?

    2. If Hindus destroyed Macca and built a temple there, would that be ok for muslims and liberals and left?

    If this is not is it acceptable for any sane person to ask Hindus to let go of their vatican/Macca’s which were destroyed and mosques built to spite us. Can any sane human accept this travesty?

    Educate yourself about Islamic invasion of India. This is the biggest holocaust in human history. Millions of Hindus massacred. Thousands of temples destroyed. tens of thousands of woman forced into slavery and in end would kill themselves to avoid the fate.


    Go and check the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan & Bangladesh after independence and NOW. the numbers will shock you into silence.
    the continuous genocide of Hindus by Islam continues unabated with ample help of people like Peter Lee, who willfully lie about history.

    Muslims, left, liberals and western countries support Palestine. Why? Why does not the same reasons don’t hold true when it comes to hindus and our temples and property and land?

    For the author, his attraction to a woman is love and our love is attraction. This two faced liars of the world do disservice to history.

  132. Anonymous [AKA "Kashmiri Pandit"] says:
    @DB Cooper

    Kashmir is a place of dispute. How prejudice the world gets while talking about it and forgets the whole thing. Kashmir today predominantly is filled with Muslims but it wasn’t always like this. They wanted to saperate from Indian Union and saw Kashmiri minorities especially Hindus as biggest stone in their way. So Hindus were forced out of the valley to be followed with the entrance of security forces. Our people were killed looted raped and thrown out of our homes brutally. I am completely against the policies of current regime and wish they’re thrown out of power in upcoming elections to save our Indian values… but neverver forget I wasn’t born on my land and it was instigated by a region based idea of non coexistence. Kashmir is s complex issue with different dynamics than rest of India. Don’t mess it up with evry idea you hold about us.

  133. sarz says:

    The authoritative Anthropological Survey of India in the 1980s listed the total number of Kashmiri pandits at less than a hundred thousand. But six times that number of supposed pandit refugees were given jobs in Jammu in which the work part was make-believe.
    As for justifying India holding on to Jammu and Kashmir because enraged Hindus would otherwise endanger other Muslims, that is laughable. Enraged Hindus are with us forever, as long as the human brain allows for unshakeable feelings of inferiority.

  134. sarz says:

    Most readers of Unz Review will be unfamiliar with the sort of trolls that paralyse free discourse on Indian websites. Well, here they are in this comments section.

    Modi’s government, run by furious semi-literates is now perhaps at 1.5% growth or even lower. But the Bharatiya Janata Party is one of the world’s best-financed, so trolling is the best sort of job on offer to their supporters.

    • Replies: @lloyd
  135. Lin says:

    (Let me repost; from a ‘liberal’ Indian’s site: )
    Mr. Sanjeev Sabhlok.
    How you should Learn to Stop Worrying and Love Hindutva.
    What bind a country together?
    It could be(broadly or loosely or for the majority)
    1)Same race
    2)Same language
    3)Same religion
    4)Same sense of historical lineage and destiny:
    India is very racially complex, has 16 ‘official languages'(members of indian parliament from southern states insist on speaking English I read) and there’s certain amount of north-south animosity(The extent I don’t judge), little wonder indian nationalism has evolved into hindu nationalism.
    The indian subcontinent has poor pre-Mughal historiography(the first serious pan-subcontinent historian I read was a muslim scholar accompanied a muslim conqueror king) and had been conquered by muslims, then by the anglos. Now Hindutva can make the followings possible:
    1)’Rewrite’ indian ‘history’, like replacing ‘Aryan invasion/migration’ by ‘Out of India’.
    2)Hindu nationalists need enemy, now they can blame the custom of forcing Dalits to handle human excrements on the muslim invaders. Other examples abound.
    3)To promote hindu pride by making certain hindu mythology ‘official’ like, as you mentioned, the elephant god Ganesh was the outcome of advanced ancient hindu science of transplanting an elephant head onto a human torso, or ancient india had atomic weapons, cars, airplanes, spacecrafts..
    Now it doesn’t matter if the constructed ‘history’ is real or not, as long as the majority of hindus believe in it, it has life of it’s own.
    Mr. Sanjeev Sabhlok, you’ve my admiration of being a rational person but I must remind you that the alternative to Hindutva is total overhaul of indian culture which is nigh impossible, save a total revolution.

  136. Consider the possibility that India and China are the only nations that see the need to control Muslim populations. Look at how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim nations vs the respect Muslims are granted in Western nations.
    Islam by nature is fascistic, totalitarian, supremacist, anti-diversity and anti-democracy. Treat them like others and your nation will gradually be destroyed. Muslims in Europe (and Erdogan of Turkey) make clear their goal is a caliphate in Europe. Islam has brought bombings, random knife attacks, mass rape, human trafficking, grooming of Euro minors to prostitution. Euro taxpayers are paying for schools to be taken over by Islam.
    The Uighers in China are being given massive support by US/NATO to rally for independence., only to poke at China. Pakistan is tired of taking them because they come with up to 19 children per woman- a recipe for disaster in a nation already grossly overcrowded.
    Do Somalis really have anything to offer the West but troubles? There are more books translated into Spanish each year than have been translated into Arabic SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME! Call me names, but most Muslims are still following beliefs from 700 AD.
    Note well- Jewish leaders are great advocates for diversity except for Israel, CNN, NYT, WAPO, Hollyweed and other institutions with gross overrepresentation of Jews. Watching TV commercials, you would think 75% of whites have a black spouse. Well, who controls advertising? 75% of high level Ivy League administrators are Jewish. These administrators promote racial strife in the student body, but pointing out their own mockery of diversity is “anti-Semitic”. Israeli Jews are 98% Euro descendants, the Exodus is a myth, like 9/11 and The USS Liberty incident. They are not Semites, proven by DNA studies conducted by Israeli Jews (so out trots the self-hating Jew pony). Guess who said this. “We own the US Congress, their MSM and their entertainment industry”. Not David Duke, or any hateful Muslim, but Netanyahu himself. What Jewish leaders say in English in the US is very different from what they say in Hebrew in Israel. American MSM will never tell you that.

  137. @DB Cooper

    Show us a Muslim nation that is not either a failed state or running 1400 years behind the West. The best examples are perhaps Indonesia, Singapore, etc., but this is achieved by brutal repression of dissent.

    • Replies: @TT
  138. lloyd says: • Website

    Unlike the Israel trolls, their English would pass for native. Their accents however would quickly expose them. Also their idiomatic English would, but not used in these troll comments. The British Empire whatever its other flaws was first rate in exporting grammatical and educated English to its colonies. Islam is now the big bad bear in the world. The mass murderers of hundreds of millions, just like the Nazis. Until 911, I had never heard of Islamaphobia and Israel was under gloabl attack. Then as foreign minister of Israel, Netanyahu said, “This is very good for Israel”.

  139. Pascal says:

    True words muslims all over world are terrorists

  140. Pascal says:

    I dont know who is this idot and fucker who has wrote this article their are 56 islamic states but muslims in india are more happily staying then in these countries the real atrocities are happening in china with uigars nothing written such a self centered moron who has written this article about islam you idiot Lee go and read their kuran it is clearly mentioned of jihad and kill those who are non islamic and in your article it clearly shows your ass is on fire because of one reason after a very long time a strong pm has emerged in india to burn ass of people like you Mr.Modi BJP & RSS are the Patriots who work for motherland india you know nothing about their work you just bark like a dog and talk about bring guns and choppers to punch on MODIS face if you have fuckin guts try to do it which you cant because you are just a couch potato and a person with ass burnt because one pure Ntionalist has emerged in india in the name of modi

  141. TT says:

    How on earth you rated Spore as Muslim nation? If you don’t know anything, remain silent is better.

    Is Turkey, Msia, Egypt all failed state running 1400yrs behind West? You got to check out Iraq, Syria & Libya how their long beautiful civilization look like prior to West invasion. And see how develop is Iran even under jUS-Israel ruthless sanction, also Dubai, Emirates,..

    The Islam had their own glory era too, such as Ottoman Empire. I have no love for Muslim extremist & wahabism spreading by jUS now, and their brutality in destroying Buddhism & Hinduism. But that doesn’t means we should talk nonsense here.

  142. Anon[229] • Disclaimer says:

    Peter Lee is right in pointing out the real India fascism. But he only scratch on the surface, India is much worst than what the world can imagine. Here are just a few articles on what India really is. Many articles exposing India crimes are shut down by millions of Indians trolling most of English media.

    Modi, the globally known great murderer only same minded Indians will select as their leader.


    Modi’s India is a menace to global free speech.

    Untold long bloody history of India endless war crimes & aggressions since gaining independent in 1947.

    Nagaland people crying out India’s cruel crimes.

    Untold story of India army mass rapes the West concealed

    India fake economy & greatest time bomb for the world awaiting.

    India is a terrorist state since independent, mother of world 1st suicide bombing terrorism, LTTE Tamil Tiger.

    India terrorism in bombing China Karachi consular.

    Inda invaded Singapore by WMM with US help.

    India ambition to invade the world.

    Exposing India lies on Kashmir exodus of Hindus

    India annexed Jammu & Kashmir illegally with more violent.

    Why so many rapes in India?

  143. samir sardana said…
    Who is Narendra Modi ?

    He is a Hindoo PM who is an illiterate and a son of a Ayah and he himself was a Tea seller on a rail platform

    Besides, he is a Gujarati – who are also called Bastards in the Mahabharata ! dindooohindoo

    The Mahabharata , Book 8: Karna Parva ,Section 45

    The Pancalas observe the duties enjoined in the Vedas; the Kauravas observe truth; the Matsyas and the Surasenas perform sacrifices, the Easterners follow the practices of the Shudras; the Southerners are fallen; the Vahikas are thieves; the Saurashtras are bastards.

    The Gujaratis are also termed as a race of Miscegnation – in the Mahabharata ! That word refers to those born of unnatural sex ! Gujaratis are a Bastard race ! They swap wives ! And they do it openly and ADVERTISE IT OPENLY !

  144. The Dindoo Hindoo Bindoo PM of India – Narendra Modi, is a Dindoo from the “lowest community of oilmen” (as per the Dindoo caste system) and is considered “the discharge,id.est., the sperm or the menstrual fluid” of Mlecchas (who are also considered scum) dindooohindoo

    The Mahabharata, Book 8: Karna Parva: Section 45

     The mlecchas are the dirt of mankind: the “oilmen are the dirt of the Mlecchas”; eunuchs are the dirt of oilmen; they who avail of the priestly ministrations of Kshatriyas, in their sacrifices, are the dirt of eunuchs.

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