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While the presidential campaign was still in progress it was possible to think that there might be some positive change in America’s broken foreign policy. Hillary Clinton was clearly the candidate of Washington Establishment hawkishness, while Donald Trump was declaring his disinclination for democracy and nation building overseas as well as promoting détente with Russia. Those of us who considered the foreign policy debacle to be the most dangerous issue confronting the country, particularly as it was also fueling domestic tyranny, tended to vote on the basis of that one issue in favor of Trump.
On December 1st in Cincinnati, president-elect Donald Trump made some interesting comments about his post-electoral foreign policy plans. There were a lot of good things in it, including his citing of $6 trillion “wasted” in Mideast fights when “our goal is stability not chaos.” And as for dealing with real enemies, he promised to “partner with any nation that is willing to join us in the effort to defeat ISIS and radical Islamic terrorism…” He called it a “new foreign policy that finally learns from the mistakes of the past” adding that “We will stop looking to topple regimes and overthrow governments, folks.”
Regarding the apparent inability of governments to thoroughly check out new immigrants prior to letting them inside the country, demonstrated most recently in Nice, Ohio and Berlin, Trump described how “People are pouring in from regions of the Middle East — we have no idea who they are, where they come from what they are thinking and we are going to stop that dead cold. … These are stupid refugee programs created by stupid politicians.” Exaggerated? For sure, but he has a point, and it all is part and parcel of a foreign policy that serves no actual interest for people who already live in the United States.
But, as so often with Trump, there was also the flip side. On the looney fringe of the foreign and national security policy agenda, the president-elect oddly believes that “The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes.” So to reduce the number of nukes we have to create more of them and put them in more places. Pouring gasoline on a raging fire would be an appropriate analogy and it certainly leads to questions regarding who is advising The Donald with this kind of nonsense.
Trump has promised to “put America first,” but there is inevitably a spanner in the works. Now, with the New Year only six days away and the presidential inauguration coming less than three weeks after that, it is possible to discern that the new foreign policy will, more than under Barack Obama and George W. Bush, be driven in significant part by Israeli interests.
At least Obama had the good sense to despise Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, but that will not be true of the White House after January 20th. Trump’s very first telephone conversation with a foreign head of government after being elected was with Netanyahu and during the campaign, he promised to invite Bibi to the White House immediately after the inauguration. The new president’s first naming of an Ambassador-designate to a foreign nation was of his good friend and bankruptcy lawyer David Friedman to Israel. Friedman had headed Trump’s Israel Advisory Committee and is a notable hard liner who supports the Israeli settler movement, an extreme right-wing political entity that is nominally opposed by existing U.S. government policy as both illegal and damaging to Washington’s interests. Beyond that, Friedman rejects creation of a Palestinian state and supports Israel’s actual annexation of the West Bank.
U.S. Ambassadors are supposed to support American interests but Friedman would actually be representing and endorsing a particularly noxious version of Israeli fascism as the new normal in the relationship with Washington. Friedman describes Jerusalem as “the holy capital of the Jewish people and only the Jewish people.” Trump is already taking steps to move the U.S. Embassy there, making the American government unique in having its chief diplomatic mission in the legally disputed city. The move will also serve as a recruiting poster for groups like ISIS and will inflame opinion against the U.S. among friendly Arab states in the region. There is no possible gain and much to lose for the United States and for American citizens in making the move, but it satisfies Israeli hardliners and zealots like Friedman.
The Trump team’s animosity towards Iran is also part of the broader Israeli agenda. Iran does not threaten the United States and is a military midget compared either to nuclear armed Israel or the U.S. Yet is has been singled out as the enemy du jour in the Middle East even though it has invaded no one since the seventeenth century. Israel would like to have the United States do the heavy lifting to destroy Iran as a regional power. If Washington were to attempt to do so it would be a catastrophe for all parties involved but that has not stopped hardliners from demanding unrelenting military pressure on Tehran.
Donald Trump is not even president yet but he advised Barack Obama to exercise the U.S. veto for the resolution condemning Israeli settlements that was voted on at the United Nations Security Council on Friday, explaining that “As the United States has long maintained, peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians will only come through direct negotiations between the parties, and not through the imposition of terms by the United Nations. This puts Israel in a very poor negotiating position and is extremely unfair to all Israelis.”
This is a straight Israeli line that might even have been written by Netanyahu himself. Or by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which fumed “AIPAC is deeply disturbed by the failure of the Obama Administration to exercise its veto to prevent a destructive, one-sided, anti-Israel resolution from being enacted by the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). In the past, this administration and past administrations have rejected this type of biased resolution since it undermines prospects for peace. It is particularly regrettable, in his last month in office, that the president has taken an action at odds with the bipartisan consensus in Congress and America’s long history of standing with Israel at the United Nations.”
Ah yes, the fabled negotiations for a two state solution, regularly employed to enable Israelis to do nothing while expanding their theft of Arab land and one wonders how Trump would define what is “fair to the Palestinians?” So we are already well into Trump’s adoption of the “always the victim argument” that the Israelis have so cleverly exploited with U.S. politicians and the media.
Not content with advising Obama, Trump also reportedly took the Palestinian issue one step further by directly pressuring the sponsoring Egyptians to postpone any submission of the resolution. Expecting to have a friendly president in the White House after January 20th, Egypt’s president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi complied on Thursday but the motion was reintroduced by New Zealand, Venezuela, Senegal and Malaysia on the following day. The resolution passed with 14 yes votes and a courageous U.S. abstention after Obama finally, after eight long years, developed a backbone. But unfortunately, Trump’s interventions suggest that nothing critical of Israel will be allowed to emerge from the U.N. during his term of office. Referring to the U.N. vote, he said that “things will be different after January 20th.”
The United Nations resolution produced an immediate reaction from Israeli Firsters in Congress and the media, led by Senator Chuck Schumer and the Washington Post. The Post featured a lead editorial entitled The Obama Administration fires a dangerous parting shot and an op-ed The United States just made Middle East peace harder by no less a redoubtable American hero than Eliot Abrams. Look in vain for any suggestion of what might be construed as an actual U.S. interest in either piece. It is all about Israel, as it always is.
The problem with Israel and its friends is that they are never satisfied and never leave the rest of us Americans alone, pushing constantly at what is essentially an open door. They have treated the United States like a doormat, spying on us more than any ostensibly friendly nation while pocketing our $38 billion donation to their expanding state without so much as a thank you. They are shameless. Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. Ron Dermer has been all over American television sputtering his rage over the United Nations settlements vote. On CNN he revealed that Israel has “clear evidence” that President Obama was “behind” the resolution and he announced his intention to share the information with Donald Trump. Every American should be outraged by Israel’s contempt for us and our institutions. One has to wonder if the mainstream media will take a rest from their pillorying of Russia to cover the story.
For many years now, Israel has sought to make the American people complicit in its own crimes while also encouraging our country’s feckless and corrupt leadership to provide their government with political cover and even go to war on its behalf. This has got to stop and, for a moment, it looked like Trump might be the man to end it when he promised to be even-handed in negotiating between the Arabs and Israelis. That was before he promised to be the best friend Israel would ever have.
Israel’s quarrels don’t stay in Israel and they are not limited to the foreign policy realm. I have already discussed the pending Anti-Semitism Awareness Act, a bipartisan effort by Congress to penalize and even potentially criminalize any criticism of Israel by equating it to anti-Semitism. Whether Israel itself wants to consider itself a democracy is up to Netanyahu and Israeli voters but the denial of basic free speech rights to Americans in deference to Israeli perceptions should be considered to be completely outrageous.
And there’s more. Israel’s government funded lawfare organization Shurat HaDin has long been using American courts to punish Palestinians and Iranians, obtaining punitive damages linked to allegations regarding terrorist incidents that have taken place in Israel. Now Shurat HaDin is using our courts to go after American companies that do business with countries like Iran.
Last year’s nuclear agreement with Iran included an end to restraints on the Islamic Republic’s ability to engage in normal banking and commercial activity. As a high priority, Iran has sought to replace some of its aging infrastructure, to include its passenger aircraft fleet. Seattle based Boeing has sought to sell to Iran Air 80 airplanes at a cost of more than $16 billion and has worked with the U.S. government to meet all licensing and technology transfer requirements. The civilian-use planes are not in any way configurable for military purposes, but Shurat HaDin on December 16th sought to block the sale at a federal court in Illinois, demanding a lien against Boeing for the monies alleged to be due to the claimed victims of Iranian sponsored terrorism. Boeing, meanwhile, has stated that the Iran Air order “support(s) tens of thousands of U.S. jobs.”
So an agency of the Israeli government is taking steps to stop an American company from doing something that is perfectly legal under U.S. law even though it will cost thousands of jobs here at home. It is a prime example of how much Israel truly cares about the United States and its people. And even more pathetic, the Israel Lobby owned U.S. Congress has predictably bowed down and kissed Netanyahu’s ring on the issue, passing a bill in November that seeks to block Treasury Department licenses to permit the financing of the airplane deal.
The New Year and the arrival of an administration with fresh ideas would provide a great opportunity for the United States to finally distance itself from a toxic Israel, but, unfortunately, it seems that everything is actually moving in the opposite direction. Don’t be too surprised if we see a shooting war with Iran before the year is out as well as a shiny new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem (to be built on land stolen from Palestinians, incidentally). Trump might think he is ushering in a new era of American policy based on American interests but it is beginning to look a lot like same-old same-old but even worse, and Benjamin Netanyahu will be very much in the driver’s seat.
Indeed depressing to watch the Donald get co-opted. But if nothing else, DJT is capable of surprise. Almost anything can happen, for better and for worse. Fasten your safety belts and enjoy the ride, say I.
About Israel/Palestine, the so-called ‘two-state solution’ was faintly ridiculous even before the Israeli land grabs from 1967 onward. Let’s call it a day for that particular bit of political fantasy.
The obvious ‘solution’ now is to go the way of South Africa: one state for all, with Truth & Reconciliation commissions, a dispossessed and terrorized white minority on the run, the whole works. Should be fun.
Not to forget the wall with Mexico. The Israeli company Elbit won a huge contract for the younger Bush’s palisade:
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/israeli-arms-maker-wins-unprecedented-contract-us-mexico-border
Now Magal is liking its chops over Señor Trump’s supposed rampart:
http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-s-election-2016/1.753331
All the world a DMZ–all eruv, all the time, jeje.
Most of us are tired of the obnoxious jooies and their relentlessly self-serving scheming, both domestic and foreign. If they insist on murdering and pillaging the idiot arabs…….great. Just do it on their own nickel with their own crappy little army No problem……just leave the rest of us out of it.
Well, Señor Netayahu turned most of the Xian Fundamentalists and Evangelicals into Zionists, like the Reverend Hajee of the Megachurch in old San Antone. Zionist White Nationalists should be as much fun as a greased pig, eh?
By the way, Pence is one of the former, a dyed in the wool fundamentalist Christian Zionist.
At the time news reports said that Trump did not choose him, but some of his children did.
Wonder which?
Well, look at it this way, Señor Trump is going to stop all those messkin illegals from taking jobs aways from gut ole watt merkin werkin foke, thus creating a lot of contracts and jobs for–Israelis, jeje.
Suckers.
“immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including east Jerusalem.”
Unfair folks. We have an exceptionalism, they said.
But David not. Humble. Honest.
I’m guessing Trump has a plan and Giraldi doesn’t know what it is. So he’s reading tea leaves and getting himself upset.
Israel should put a tarp over Gaza and run a Zyklon-B hose to it. After that, American soldiers can scorch the earth of Jordan and Syria, and restore the Kingdom of Israel. That’s what God wants.
“”The pro-Israelis who produced the presidency of the dysfunctional George Bush to take us to war in Iraq also produced the presidency of narcissist Donald Trump—to take us to war in Iran. Were that not the case, the Trump transition would not be dominated by pro-Israeli right-wingers. Below I show how supporters of the Israeli Right delivered an Electoral College victory for a reality show host who likely remains unaware who is manipulating his self-absorbed needs on behalf of Tel Aviv.”
http://hiddentaxonhumanity.com/uncategorized/mel-rockefeller-commentary/mel-rockefeller-commentary/
“Pre-staging The Donald
Pro-Israelis inside the Trump Organization include general counsel Jason Greenblatt (a former settler), bankruptcy attorney David M. Friedman (a two-state solution skeptic), special counsel Michael Cohen and key family members, including son-in-law Kushner and his wife Ivanka Trump who converted to Orthodox Judaism. Israeli settlers were heartened by an interview that Greenblatt, lately described as a Trump “foreign policy adviser,” gave to Israel’s Army Radio after the election in which he said that Trump did not view the settlements as “an obstacle for peace.” That statement led to several celebratory announcements in Israel claiming “the era of the Palestinian state is over.”[8]
Greenblatt lived in a settlement in Israel. Post-election rumors speculated he could be appointed as Trump’s Middle East envoy though Kushner is also seen as qualified. Kushner is a real estate developer and Greenblatt a real estate attorney. Neither have diplomatic experience.
Israeli Ambassador Ron Dermer has repeatedly visited the transition team. An American who forfeited his U.S. citizenship to serve Israel, he’s a key Trump intermediary not only for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu but also Sheldon Adelson, the casino mogul who spends an estimated $50 million per year publishing for free Israel’s most widely read free newspaper (Israel Today). The paper is steadfastly supportive of Netanyahu and the Israeli Right.[9] Dermer arranged for Republican Congressional leaders to secretly invite Netanyahu to deliver a nationally televised speech on March 3, 2016 to a joint meeting of Congress in opposition to then ongoing negotiations on the Iran nuclear accord—that Trump now opposes.[10]
Six days after that speech, Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton sought to undermine negotiations by releasing a letter to Iranian leaders signed by 47 Republican Senators suggesting that any accord with Iran could be undone by the next president. The role played by Israel and its lobby was apparent. Those skeptical that a 37-year old freshman Senator would take this step on his own initiative noted that Cotton’s Senate campaign received nearly $1 million five months earlier from the Emergency Committee for Israel led by Jewish neoconservative William Kristol, co-founder of the Project for a New American Century established in 1997 to lobby for regime change in Iraq.[11]
In 2012, Dermer broke with long-standing diplomatic protocol to campaign for Mitt Romney, the Republican presidential candidate, an opponent of the Iran deal and, importantly, a Mormon.[12] Also known as the Lost Tribe of Israel, youth in this uniquely American version of Zionism are routinely recruited for employment in the F.B.I. and our intelligence services, an issue to which I will return.[13]
By stirring up the settlements issue, the Israel Right may well ignite another war-catalyzing intifada reminiscent of the Ariel Sharon-led march to the Al Aqsa Mosque (Temple Mount) in September 2000. That provocative armed march triggered the Second (Al Aqsa) Intifada one year prior to the war-catalyzing provocation of 9/11. Sharon organized that march after helping ensure the failure of international negotiations on a proposed agreement to designate Jerusalem an international city protected for use by adherents of all three faiths that consider the ancient city sacred.
Purposefully aggravating the settlements issue is also consistent with the influence wielded within the Republican Party by Mr. Adelson. He and his equally rightwing Israeli wife used their influence to ensure that any mention of the two-state solution was removed from the Republican Party platform. Democrats saw a similar scouring of their platform by the Israeli Right to ensure that the term “occupied territories” was stricken.
Adding to those provocations, the Knesset took up legislation allowing settlers to gain title to privately owned Palestinian land on which the settlers illegally built. As usual with rightwing pro-Israelis and their deployment of simultaneous provocations, multiple goals are routinely pursued at the same time. Senator Pat Leahy of Vermont summarized how:
“One of the most effective ways that ISIS and other terrorist groups have attracted recruits is by tarring the United States with Israel’s expanding occupation of the West Bank. This legislation to retroactively legalize illegal settlements will be welcomed by those murderous groups as further evidence that America’s closest ally in the region is bent on destroying a peaceful solution, including the possibility of a Palestinian state.”[14]”
It is funny how Unz.com’s large stable of Israel/Jew haters just can’t decide if Trump is on their side or not. (I think Giraldi is right, he’s not, and Saker is wrong.)
What Giraldi does not understand is that patriotic white people do not find it acceptable that the Holy Land be occupied by Muslim barbarians. It really is just that simple. It was the case 1000 years ago, and is still the case now.
Israel is America’s Crusader Kingdom, and Bibi is white America’s loyal viceroy.
It is Israel’s by right of conquest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest
And if you don’t believe in that right, I first urge to you deed your house over to the nearest Indian tribe, and second explain how the various Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians” got that land in the first place.
Trump’s son-in-law, and closest advisor, is a professional Jew. His presence probably guarantees that American boys will be dying in Israel’s wars for the next eight years.
Gullible = stupid
You don’t need to be psychopath to agree with this conclusive statement. And have real consequences.
I always think only Brazilian people who are very politically conformist but by now I’m perceiving other similarity between two countries/peoples, both are too much passive/pussy.
Tsk. Oh well, go ahead, heighten the contradictions, baby. Better a horrible end than horror without end…
Such is life in a nation–America–that is a colony of Apartheid Israel. All that free money and all those ‘surplus’ weapons they receive each year is a tribute from the occupied nation, the USA, to Apartheid Israel.
Israel and its American sayanim control the WH, Congress, State, and the FED and Treasury, making sure that Israel is completely in control of us GOYIM.
But don’t worry, watch football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey endlessly. Drool and lust after Hollywood starlets that love to show off their bodies. Drink yourself into a stupor and stay stoned. Just don’t question or complain about being a subject of Eretz Israel.
It seems to me that people have been disgusted with ‘Merkin foreign policy for a long time. I believe that’s a large part of the reason the goon, GHW Bush lost a second term, why its goofy spawn who promised a compassionate conservatism with a humble foreign policy got elected, why the drone murderer and warmonger “Peace” prize prez got elected and the Charnel House Madame lost.
Trump will take care of himself and his buddies and the rest of us schmucks’ll get a few crumbs.
Aristophanes’ The Knights is about how a sausage seller became a politician. It’s a fun read, and I challenge anyone to make a good case of how it’s really any different now than it was 2.5 millennia back.
It’s all a scam and a crummy deal for de lil pipple. Pun intended.
I agree, we will find out once in office. Trump is an America first guy, this will inevitably clash with Zionist interests, already has over Syria, Russia etc. The Iran stuff is just rhetoric. Bolton won’t be getting a position, nor are any other neocons.
Could have written a column at this point when JFK was President elect saying he was servile to Zionist interests, nothing could have been further from the truth once he assumed office.
How does Humpty Trump fit in here?
Where do people get their faith?
Why change is only possible when you have someone like Trump who has been totally immersed in a Jewish milieu for his entire adult life.
How dare instead of aid they hook DC. J Street seemingly pro DC UN-res. Unrespected to UN-res is isolation move very clear.
Now if only POTUS Trump will implement a highly racialized National Origins Immigration Policy that excluded all nonwhite Legal Immigrants….just like our Friend ISRAEL!!!!
Damn dem nefarious Jews.
Just when we think we have elected a good Nazi as President he turns out to be a mole for Israel.
Damn dem nefarious Jews.
Breitbart commenters are already foaming at the mouth about the UN Palestinian vote and calling for the UN to be moved out of New York and all the “Pal Muzzies” be killed or kicked out the West Bank ASAP.
These are Trumps supporters and they aren’t looking at the finer points of anything. Bannon knows it, and Trump knows it, so the next stop is probably some new False Flag and the bombing of Iran.
What would be the effect be?
More 100.000’s of civilians killed and made homeless with a US public that couldn’t care less (as proved by Iraq, Libya etc.) . A temporary rise in the oil price and much more wariness of the US from both Russia and China and maybe even a mutual defense treaty.
The main issue for the US public would probably be the financial one. This time they would insist on a cheap and quick execution with no $Trillions (it’s being done on credit after all) and Trump could present himself as a Bush style all American hero if it’s over in a few days.
From the viewpoint of the ROW the US would be a certified Rogue Nation, that was also the world’s leading military/nuclear power, so Russia and China would no doubt urgently ramp up their nuclear capabilities – if they’re not already doing it.
Quote: “Donald Trump could make the world a safer place” Former Chief of the British Defense Staff – Lord Richards. Need to ask him about that one.
To Lot: And how long did the Outre Mer last? A century? All those squatters in Jerusalem and elsewhere ought to dust off their old passports for a return to Minsk, Pinsk and Miami Beach.
Jew Crusader, LOL. Stop spitting at crosses before you paint them on your clothing. How do you think Christians 1000 years ago would have looked on the Holy Land being occupied by a Jewish state?
Yeah, I agree that European and American usurpers who (temporarily) control the place need to pack the fuck up and go home. But who’s going to give them that kick in the ass? Where’s this new Saladin, who’s the new Baibars? I don’t see any…
There are about six million Palestinians enslaved by Zionists in Palestine. There must be up to three hundred million Americans enslaved by those same Zionists in the US. Which is a greater tragedy? We needed Pat Buchanan for president.
How do you think Christians 1000 years ago would have looked on the Holy Land being occupied by a Jewish state?
Make the West Great Again; bring back the Dark Ages.
Considering that Trump is surrounded by so many Jews and the fact that he is extraordinarily fond of his Jewish son-in-law (who has close ties to Israel) I never put much stock in his “America First” slogan. When push comes to shove Israel’s interests will trump (pun intended) America’s, but of course, we will be lectured that Israel’s interests are U.S. interests and anyone who dissents is an anti-semite and holocaust denier.
The loony and intellectually bankrupt left only labels Trump a Nazi insofar as he doesn’t hate white people which is their prerequisite for political office. Otherwise, he’s shaping up to be a Likudnik’s wet dream.
If Israel wants regime change with neighboring Muslim countries then it’s time they step up to the plate and risk bankruptcy. high military casualties and devastating terrorist attacks against their citizens to achieve it. They need to start paying with their own blood and treasure.
It’s time for the U.S. to chart an entirely different course and adopt neutrality and a defensive grand strategy as foreign and military policy.
Well not that Quisling Abbas, that’s for sure. But history has a way of providing surprises, even for a people that spent 2000 years trying to figure out how to get Jerusalem back. And history is littered with 1000 year Reichs, unconquerable empires and unsinkable ships. Note that the UNSC vote was 14-0 and that Europe is skeptical, to say the least, of America’s, and especially Trump’s , ability to lead.
“Great again”? Israel has always been great. Two words: high IQ.
“America is Israel’s Crusader army, and Trump is the Zionist entity’s loyal viceroy.”
There, fixed it for you.
Well, I think the most likely scenario would be mass-emigration, resulting from worsening of economic conditions. Infusions of US money can only do so much, and hopefully BDS will play its part…
I was encouraged that DJT might be more balanced in approaching Israel than it first appeared when this meeting cancellation showed up. http://www.timesofisrael.com/backing-swedish-far-rightist-trump-proxy-boycotts-top-israeli-official/
Nov 25, 2016 Donald Trump Picks Hawk CFR Henry Kissinger Aid To Cabinet
Donald Trump’s latest National Security Advisor pick apart of his cabinet K.T. McFarland. We go over who this person really is and what to expect in the future from this major decision.
Just curious whether our anchor baby patriot concurs with these statements.
I want the same kind of highly racialized National Origins Immigration Policy as Our Friend Israel!!!
Jared Kushner supports a Jew only National Origins Immigration for Our Friend Israel!!!
Donald Trump supports a Jew only National Origins Immigration Policy for our Friend Israel!!
Richard Spencer and Paul Kersey….take note of this….talk about nothing else….
Here is some background info on The Lobby:
I clicked on your link and read this:
A little rich seeing as they have no issues supporting an ethnostate.
anchor baby patriot
I assume this is my cue.
Do not concur.
Changes are definitely needed, not sure about the entirely part, and disagree with blanket neutrality.
Surprising enough, Kevin MacDonald has a more optimistic outlook on the present situation (“Donald Trump as a Zionist,” Occidental Observer, 26 December 2016).
When will Israel define its border? Is it Genesis 15:18 from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river in Iraq? Didn’t God make His covenant conditional on the obedience of Abraham’s offspring? Deuteronomy 28. Does the modern, secular state called Israel have a living prophet telling the Jews to take the land away from the people living there? The 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel were conquered and assimilated in 722 BC leaving the southern Kingdom of Judah (and the tribe of Benjamin). They were conquered in 586 BC. Later Judeans (Jews) returned to Judea. The land today should rightfully be called Judea, not Israel, and of course Jews should be allowed to live there. But I disagree that it should be a solely Jewish state. Also, I do not believe that the modern, secular state called Israel has anything to do with the Second Coming of Christ. Modern Israel was created by the UN and is not the Israel of the Bible.
Well, a pro-Russian, pro-Israel Trump administration would probably align nicely with Bibi’s own foreign policy (which is informed by the demands of the large Russian-Israeli population). As Steve Sailer has noted for a long time, Israel’s right has been cozying up to Putin for a long time. True, they don’t see eye to eye on Iran or Syria, but I’m sure some arrangement can be hammered out.
Idiots, in other words.
Globalism isn’t some detail of foreign policy. Not for the globalists, and not for their victims (the world).
This seems odd for Trump, given how Boobie threw Trump under the bus during the election, and how the Zionists did pretty much nothing to help Trump – when they weren’t NeverTrumping, that is.
Maybe Trump’s invitation to Boobie is like his invitation of Romney; hi guy, here, have a long, long tease, now GTFO, enjoy the blue balls.
Or maybe Trump has in mind a strategy of using Israel as sword and shield. I think this would be an immensely useful strategy; pattern American policy on Israeli policy (sword); whenever criticized, defend by pointing to Israel (shield). It could be devastatingly effective, given the many billions of dollars the Zionists have spent building up Israel’s popularity in America. American cucks will be highly vulnerable to this strategy. Jews will be very weak against it. It will expose all kinds of fissures and vulnerabilities long papered over. And it will give implicit white nationalism a lot of room to maneuver. And in the long run, it will be good for the Zionists, and bad for diaspora Jewry.
Or maybe Trump’s strategy is somewhere in the middle.
You’re mostly speculating, jumping the gun, vis-a-vis Iran.
You’re right about Trump’s position on the Security Council resolution being straight from Boobie, but I can see a lot of potential up sides to cleaving closely to the rightist Israeli regime.
I noticed that you ignored Boobie/Trump’s point about Hussein’s sharp divergence from the bipartisan consensus in Congress. Much as we might hate to admit it, they have a point.
Maybe. Or maybe Trump will work deals with Boobie, the way he seems inclined to work deals with everyone. Trump may be inclined to grant unconditional support to the Zionist Jews, the way he probably hasn’t been inclined to grant it to New York City Jews (a corrolary of his continued survival in the NYC real estate business), but I wouldn’t bank on it.
Hussein has handed Trump a big favor with the Security Council abstention, btw. Trump can now point to the fact that White House support for Israel is not unconditional, without having to get his hands dirty. And he can position himself as quite the carrot. Personally, I’d make Boobie & the Zionists pay, in a public way, for throwing me under the bus during the campaign, if I were Trump, but maybe he has bigger plans.
Dan thanks for the link to the OD piece:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2016/12/donald-trump-as-zionist/#more-108242
America is run by Israel-Firsters. Giraldi & company are Israel-Lasters. Trump is (or seems to be) an America-Firster. KMac is a Whites-Firster, so naturally, he’s not as het up about Trump’s position as the Israel-Lasters are. KMac is obviously closest to my own position. Our problem is far more with diaspora Jewry, than it is with Israel. On the contrary, we’d like to have for ourselves something a lot like what Israeli Jewry has for itself.
Indeed. That makes perfect sense to me.
Taking a wait and see attitude, and constantly correcting for new info, is common sense. I don’t find common sense “funny,” generally speaking, but to each his own.
Dealmakers support no one unconditionally. That seems like common sense to me – to see Trump as a dealmaker, before seeing him wedded to some cucked-out vision of Israel as “our” heretical Crusader State.
What’s Israel’s mean IQ again? 95, or something? Ashkenazi Israeli mean IQ is like 104, IIRC. Vast majority of the smart Jews live in the diaspora.
Giraldi & company are Israel-Lasters. KMac and I are Whites-Firsters.
And iffen & co are Stupidity-Firsters who conflate the two.
Make Israel great again; bring back ALEXANDER JANNÆUS.
Josephus tells us that this same dude …
Nary a kudo for Obama anywhere. The Jew MSM has supported him 100% for eight years – now nothing. He has given up untold millions in speaker fees from Jews (and probably every major interest) to do the right thing. Too bad he got the Nobel Peace Prize when he did – he deserves it now.
Trump campaigned that he was going to take America out of the bad guy trouble making column. Well with his actions on the UN vote he has squarely put America at odds with the world. In effect the vote was 15 for Palestine – zero for Israel. Hmm – 15 for good – ZERO for evil.
It appears that what Trump meant when he said he would end the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, was that he would give Palestine a deal that they could not refuse – either they take it, or he will give Netanyahu full range to do as he pleases.
Peace — Art
http://www.timesofisrael.com/backing-swedish-far-rightist-trump-proxy-boycotts-top-israeli-official/
Yes, that is very interesting, isn’t it?
On second thought, I suppose I’ve unfairly lumped myself into the group you’re intending to criticize. There is, after all, a large stable of Israel-Lasters here at TUR.
The Israeli/Zionist cancer of America is irreversible at this point, so deeply entrenched are these forces in our nation. The assassination of John F. Kennedy came during the heights of his battle against Ben-Gurion and the possibility of a nuclear Israel, something he was dead set against and that quickly happened once he was out of the way. During this time, while JFK was attempting to place Israel’s Dimona Nuclear weapons program under US inspection, attorney general Robert Kennedy ordered AIPAC’s parent organization, AZC(American Zionist Council) to openly register and disclose all of its foreign funded lobbying activity in the United States. Of course, these plans were stopped by the murder of JFK and Israel today is fully nuclear and NO Israeli lobby has ever registered as a foreign agent.
https://pulsemedia.org/2009/08/28/the-kennedys-vs-israels-lobby/
More than likely, Trumps courting of Pro-Israel, Pro-war with Iran Romney was a signal to the Lobby and hard line Zionists.
“When Mitt Romney made Trump’s short list as a potential Secretary of State, the war-with-Iran agenda came sharply back into focus. A lay bishop in the Mormon Church, a Romney Administration would by now have led us into Israel’s long-sought war with Iran.
During Romney’s 2012 campaign, foreign policy adviser Dan Senor told journalists that if Israel launched a strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities, Romney “would respect the move.” Regardless of their personal differences (Romney called Trump a “phony” and a “fraud”), his hardline position on Iran qualified Romney to serve as Trump’s Secretary of State.
Should Romney be included in a Trump administration, Trump will be portrayed as magnanimous and Romney’s role will be cast as unifying the party. In truth, it will confirm that Zionists have consolidated their power in a presidency produced for the purpose of taking us to war in Iran. Those promoting the narrative of “Russian interference” in the 2016 presidential election fail to mention that Israeli Ambassador Ron Dermer campaigned for Romney in 2012; Netanyahu was prominently featured in a Romney campaign ad in Florida warning of the Iranian threat.
Romney adviser Dan Senor hailed Pompeo as a “superb pick” (Romney’s July 2012 trip to Israel is described as the “brainchild” of Senor and Dermer).[20] As chief spokesperson for the Coalition Provisional Authority and senior adviser to Bremer,[21] Senor put a positive spin on the disastrous post-invasion policies that devastated Iraq and pre-staged the conditions required for the emergence of ISIL.[22] While in Iraq, the neoconservative Senor represented not U.S. but Israeli interests.[23]
Trump’s transition confirms that Jewish elites and extremists have amassed enough control to pick presidential advisers able to shape U.S. foreign policy for the next fifty years. Lt. General Michael Flynn, former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency,[24] was quickly named National Security Adviser. After the attack on the U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya in 2012, General Flynn kept asking his intelligence officers to look for a link to Iran—i.e., in much the same way that intelligence officers were pressed to look for a 9/11 link to Iraq. In neither case was there any link.
http://hiddentaxonhumanity.com/uncategorized/mel-rockefeller-commentary/mel-rockefeller-commentary/
Dear trolls and assailants,
Congratulations, you have won. Insults and pejoratives are one thing, intimidation and assaults are another. Other people may fancy violence and blackjacks, I have no taste for confrontation. In a few hours, you can raise your champagne flutes and celebrate my passing. Cyber-stalking laws are there for a reason. Parents, please don’t let this happen to your children, it turns life into a living hell.
– Allie
Don’t believe Obama just “developed a backbone”. This is a scam, pure and simple.
There will be massive false-flag attack on American soil, blamed on Russia, before Obama leaves office.
This newfound “compassion” for the little guy will make it all the easier for Obama to rally Americans into supporting martial law, and an open-ended Obama dictatorship, or at least putting up with it. With a little help from the Stasi, eh, “Homeland Security”, for luck.
At minimum, this move is simply what Noam Chomsky has described as the “standard zionist tactic of appearing to switch sides, last minute, to avoid being blamed”.
The US-Israel Axis of Diversity.
1. US-Israel are national democracies with no effective constitutional limits on their national government’s law making power.
2. US-Israel are dominated by an organized, ultra-large, anti-white-straight-Christian-male victim cult. This organized victim cult falsely promotes itself as being anti-Nazi.
3. US-Israel define a Nazi profile as being white-straight-Christian-independent-armed-gringo-law abiding-male
4. US-Israel have a 2-party system that dominates national politics.
5. US Republicans = conservative Judaism = Israeli Likud Party
6. US Democrats = secular Judaism = Israeli Labor Party
7. US-Israel have a super-majority of protected class voters who behave as a victim cult, They are special people that demand and receive thousands of class based government enttlements by law in exchange for their votes.
8. US-Israel are fascist and aggressive proponents of the American-Israeli victim class supremacy scheme in the world
9. US-Israel coodinate their attacks and sabotage of Israeli enemies in the middle east
10. US-Israel coordinate their black operations
11. US-Israel share military technology and intelligence
12. US-Israel are international pariah states for the same reasons
13. US-Israel have biased immigration policies in favor of victim cult people.
14. US-Israel cover for each others transgressions in the UN
15. US-Israel military and foreign aid agreements are heavily biased toward Israeli enrichment
16. US-Israel relationship is so perverse that Israel can attack the US Navy, and be rewarded for doing so (USS Liberty)
17. The American-Israeli victim class supremacy scheme ideology:
Women are entitled because of Male oppression
Jewish are entitled because of Gentile oppression
Queers are entitled because of Straight oppression
Muslims are entitled because of Christian oppression
Disabled are entitled because of Healthy oppression
Afro-blacks are entitled because of White oppression
Latinos are entitled because of Gringo oppression
Hispanics are entitled because of Gringo oppression
Military Veteran are entitled because of Militia oppression
2-party System Dependents are entitled because of Independent oppression
Aboriginals are entitled because of Paleface oppression
Asians are entitled because of Occidental oppression
National Socialist are entitled because of local-state Government oppression
Crony Capitalist are entitled because of honest Businessmen oppression
Zionist are entitled because of anti-Fascist oppression
Trump didn’t need Obama’s action on the UN resolution to set that tone. George W. Bush let five UNSC resolutions pass against Israel, called on Israel to end the occupation of Palestinian land, called for a contiguous Palestinian state unfettered by Israeli settlements, condemned the settlement enterprise repeatedly, withheld U.S. loan guarantees to Israel, implemented strict restrictions on Israeli travel to the U.S., condemned the building of Israel’s security wall, condemned Israel’s attacks on Gaza, pushed Israel into the Annapolis conference and the Road Map, sold weapons to Arab states in violation of an agreement with Israel, pressured Israel to allow Hamas to run in the Palestinian elections, prosecuted AIPAC staffers for espionage, and refused to support an Israeli bombing run on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Nonetheless, his last year in office, with the financial support of Sheldon Adelson no less, he was honored at the first Israeli President’s Conference as Israel’s protector and the best friend Israel has ever had in the White House.
Obama’s big crime and the real favor he did for an incoming Trump administration was signing that Iran Nuclear deal giving Trump a shadow of an opportunity to avoid another war for Israel being so aggressively pushed by the Pro-Israel crowd.
All of Bush’s lesser crimes against Israel were easily forgiven for the much greater gift he gave the Zionists which was the war against and total destruction of Iraq and the huge cost it caused to the American empire which must happen for the torch to be passed from Pax Americana to Pax Judaica.
The quote seems both premature, and outdated in light of subsequent events.
You’ll be missed (that’s sarcasm).
Maybe we can get the Russians who just faked their ambassador’s assassination and blew up their own passenger jet to pull it off for us? If not, maybe the Russians who pulled off the false-flag bombings of Russian apartment buildings (to get Russian public support for 2nd Chechnian war) are available.
Before Russia is blamed for a false flag, Iran will be and very soon too. The destruction of Iran is the most pivotal prereq to a war against Russia and Putin will have to decide whether to let America exhaust its empire in Iran through war or continue with the stand he took in Syria., which logically would continue into support for Iran.
Good point; the abstention won’t do him any favors in that department, that’s for sure. Which suggests that some of his Big Money Jews are on board; I doubt he’d put (all of) his Warbucks in jeopardy without at least consulting them.
Yeah, Trump seems more interested in America than The World. I tend to agree.
Israel-Lasters do seem pretty uninterested in what’s good for me and mine. Just like the Israel-Firsters. But at least there’s something to be gained from the latter.
You keep repeating this false claim. Once again, in reality, Bibi distanced himself from Trump in mild terms after Trump proposed a blanket ban on Muslim non-citizens entering the U.S. The very same speech was criticized in much harsher terms by Marine Le Pen and, at the same time, the British parliament actually held a debate, after a petition signed by hundreds of thousands, on banning Trump from the country. The Prime Minister of France to take one example out of hundreds, said that Trump made him “want to retch”. At the same time, Arab MKs were threatening riots if Trump visited the country.
With all that said, Bibi is actually not a very good student of US affairs. He bet that Romney would win and Trump would lose. He doesn’t seem to have any more insight than anyone could get from reading the newspaper.
As always, a good article, Mr. Giraldi.
I wish that you would be on the NSC, not that you would necessarily want to be there.
As a non-US person, the turning point to complete pessimism about the Trump prexidency in your country was the reaction to the UNSC vote.
Breitbart News made it obvious that their core interest is to push settler Zionism ever since Trump was elected.
Sure, they have Milo as a dolly-bird to make it a little more than that at times.
They have just the same take as, or even worse, on the UNSC resolution that they pretend to be alternative to.
Obama did not show a spine by abstaining, to show a spine would have to voting in favour. Sure, an improvement, he could have allowed a very similar resolution to have passed, many years ago.
Two state solution：Israeli invaders (post-1973) to certify the legality of their land holdings, and to compensate the people they drove out in many places.
I read enough to know that some parts of eastern Jerusalem, there were legal sales, but they were in the inner parts of the city.
So my two-state solution has serious compensation for illegal theft of land post-1967, and the Israeli ‘settlers’ to be under a Palestinian government, in the same way as Arab citizens of Israel are within Israel.
I doubt that anybody will adopt this sensible idea, and, even if anyone does, wealthy Israel will not pay, but will demand that their USA colony does.
Really, the whole thing was something of a win-win; Hussein gave Israel-Firsters a slap in the face, which they desperately needed, and Trump tried to stop him, temporarily succeeded, but ultimately failed.
You may be right…… hard to say.
As for Iran, I think the zios got burned bigtime with the explosion of their rocket, days before the anniversary of 9/11, on the launchpad, seemingly by a missile (still not explained) and which absolutely freaked out the Israelis. The rocket carried a nuke “from Iran” designed to strike the US on the 15th anniversary of 9/11, after orbiting Earth for a day or two, just for cover.
My guess is that the downed TU-154 plane (a new low even for the Chosenites) , the assassination of the Russian ambassador, the Obama threats to Russia over the bogus election meddling, all point to Russia as the latest target of the zionists.
questions:
Who demands mass immigration into white gentile countries, but stops non-Jew immigration into “that shitty little country”?
Who runs the Federal Reserve?
Who runs Wall Street?
Who owns the US Congress?
Who owns the White House?
Who dominates the US Supreme Court?
Who forces acceptance of the fictitious & impossible ’6M & gas chambers’?
Who runs the media / entertainment?
Who runs the music business?
Who dominates ‘academia’?
Why is AIPAC the most powerful, dominant lobby, which regularly writes the text of Congressional bills and resolutions?
Who is it that wants to censor free speech via the “hate speech” canard?
Who is it that demands we shed the blood of US troops for their interests?
Who are the real & biggest racists on the planet?
France isn’t our greatest ally. Or a lobbying colossus. And I cut L Pen waaaaaaaay more slack than I do the Israelis, because the Israelis aren’t in an uphill struggle to win back their own country. England is enemy-occupied territory, too, but what’s Israel’s excuse? They’re an ethno-state, they have huge influence over the Jewish diaspora, who in turn have huge influence over American politics, but instead of being a friend to us as they are to Israel, they’re our foremost enemies. This stuff shouldn’t need explaining.
Bibi distanced himself, the Zionists did precious little but watch the election in silence, when they weren’t NeverTrumping.
Ethno-nationalists in Western Europe range from nobodies, to minorities. Ethno-nationalists are in charge in Israel, but they still threw us under the bus. They’ve never even crooked their pinky fingers to help us. Treachery from a supposed friend (the ethno-nationalists who have run Israel forever) is far worse than treachery from an enemy (the anti-ethno-nationalists who have run Western Europe forever).
iran is untouchable right now. china’s new silk road runs through it. the zionists would have to deal with iran, russia and china, all 3 at the same time.
I don’t see anyway for the zionists to win in that confrontation. it is also the reason why the iran/usa nuclear treaty even exists.
The most insightful and thorough overview I’ve read on our truly deplorable situation.
Thank you Philip Giraldi for not pulling any punches — we need truth now more than we ever have.
There never was going to be a two state solution. What will someday happen is a unified Israel that is not overtly a Jewish racial and religious state as it now is, but one that resembles other modern nations. It’s only a matter time.
As for settlers, they couldn’t be stopped in North America, either, but those of us with Native American ancestry had to live with it.
Interesting……….any links you can point me to regarding that failed false flag attack?
It usually takes a lot for me to lose it, but…
Screw you, miserable punk!
Wally: Thanks for the genuinely relevant questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpybzN0cLo
Surprising enough, Kevin MacDonald has a more optimistic outlook on the present situation (“Donald Trump as a Zionist,” Occidental Observer, 26 December 2016).
That is crazy – do blacks and Latinos control congress, the president, foreign policy, domestic policy, the media, education, and soon to be the courts. Get real!
The very reason we have too many Mexicans is because of Jew policy and politics.
America needs to fix its Jew control problem.
Only fools disagree with that.
Peace — Art
“Israel should put a tarp over…blah blah”
Sure, the evil empire and its begger biatch could do that, but…
“That’s what God wants.”
LOL!
What God has indeed promised is to fill hell with the pagan polytheist disbelievers. That would mean everybody who worships human-like beings, and animals (including the calf… 😉 )
Not really sure what this means. The majority of British people have, by American standards, liberal beliefs. They are occupying themselves. This is what British people think of Trump.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/06/tenth-of-britons-back-donald-trump-for-president-while-half-back-hillary-clinton
Perhaps you want to punish British people, too, along with more or less the whole world for opposing Trump. I hope not. I’m very fond of Britain.
1) Israel’s population is 20% Muslim. Muslim MKs threatened riots if Trump visited.
2) Israel relies on not alienating pro-peace-process, but not anti-Israel countries, like Britain, the political and elites and populations of which were (and are) wildly hostile to Trump.
3) Israel is loathed by huge swathes of the world, is the object of more UN resolutions than any other country by a huge margin, has sanctions against it by the EU and cannot afford to alienate people even further by allying with unpopular candidates with no chance of winning (again, in Bibi’s judgement).
4) Bibi was widely considered to have made a fool of himself and endangered Israel’s security for publicly backing Romney and was loathe to make the same “mistake” again,
5) Bibi’s comments were about a policy that is not, in fact, law in Israel (Muslims can and do frequently enter the country and Muslims can and do become citizens, for example if they marry an Israeli) and which Trump has, himself, effectively repudiated (I still think it’s a good policy, for what it’s worth.)
The majority of diaspora Jews support a Palestinian state, no matter how many times we tell them it means suicide, because they just know better. Yet you expect us to dictate their domestic political positions too?
Were this true, you would expect there to be some correlation between the amount of Jews/Jewish power in a country and the amount of anti-White leftism, but no such correlation exists. I don’t dispute that Jewish Americans are, for the most part your enemy. Since, nearly half are not even Jewish under Jewish law, I don’t even care.
The authors of the Oslo process have admitted that it was part of a plan to turn Israel from a Jewish state into a state with some Jews in it. Saying that “ethno-nationalists” have always run Israel is like saying that anti illegal-immigration patriots have always run America because the Democrats publicly claim to be patriotic and against illegal immigration. Even now, if Hamas would just develop some time preference and “lay down their weapons (wink wink)”, Israelis would elect a Leftist suicide government in five minutes flat. What it more, even when the most popular Palestinian faction openly declares their intention to slaughter every one of us, moderate ethno-nationalists can only cobble together a coalition government with the aid of Haredim. We’re just not as all-that as the alt-right seem to imagine.
You haven’t pointed to anything that amounts to treachery. Cowardice and poor judgement? Absolutely, but that’s no surprise. The reality is that Bibi is not that ethno-nationalist and not that smart. He’s stayed at the top of Israeli politics for a very simple reason. If the Left gain power, then the Palestinians will gain the West Bank meaning endless low level wars which will destroy the economy. If the (real) Right gain power then the international community will impose serious sanctions that will destroy the economy. The Bibi strategy is the only viable option, but it’s so dishonorable and shameful that’s he’s the only reasonably talented guy willing to do it and he doesn’t do it all that well.
“I want the same kind of highly racialized National Origins Immigration Policy as Our Friend Israel!!!”
Yeah, and I want the same thing for Germany.
Germans let in a million migrants from the ME but make ridiculous, craven arguments based on Second and Third Reich law when it comes to recognizing the descendants of those they pushed out and whose businesses were aryanized in the thirties.
“…by those murderous groups…”
In *comparison* to the evil empire and its beggar soulless master, these groups you talk of, are positively saintly 😀
One word: Networking
Talha,
Just how many inviolable Holy Cities do “you” people need?
“…acceptable that the Holy Land be occupied by Muslim barbarians…”
So says either a *human* worshipper or a descendent of *calf* worshippers, who have committed far greater murderous barbarity that us Muslim “barbarians.” H3ll will be a most appropriate place for likes of you, if you actually believed in such a thing.
Go usurp all you want, glorify yourselves all you want, for this fleeting moment in this world, for you will utter losers in His court.
As for us, worshippers of the One and Only, the Infinite, the *Unique*, the Unseen, we praise and glorify Him daily for choosing us to be Muslim “barbarians.”
The Old Farting Lesbian Angela Merkel must be convicted of TREASON!!!….and then dipped in a large vat of car battery acid…sealed…Do it in a popular public square so the German People can observe and enjoy kicks and screams emitted from the walls of the vat….Make it a German Family Holiday……Then kick the US Negro Military out of Deutchland….forever.
Goddamn it.
Well… it was certainly worth a try. Plan A didn’t work. Damn you Kushner. 🙁
I pray it isn’t but just in case, begin the sharpening of the pitchforks and the oiling of the torches cuz it may be time for Plan B. 😉
High IQ with Zero morality.
What would you understand about that.
Hey iffen,
I was upset about his “only” remark. If his remarks insinuate that they plan to eventually drive out Muslims from the city so that is it is for “only the Jewish people” – then that is utterly contemptible. Especially given the history:
“Playing to messianic expectations rampant among 16th-century Jews, Sultan Süleyman the Magnificent invites Jewish refugees from the Spanish expulsion to settle in his realm. Jerusalem, already an established center of mystics, becomes a magnet for pious Jewish settlers who flock here in greater numbers for the first time since antiquity.”
http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/p/period6-3.htm
Peace.
What suicide, are you insane? Why don’t you just go back where you (or you parents) came from, and let the good people of Palestine return, rebuild their villages, and live in peace as they did for centuries before all this madness started. What’s suicidal about that?
“Who are the real & biggest racists on the planet?”
Why, the whites of course. Or, was that a trick question?
> When will Israel define its border?
how long was the USA in existence when it completed its “land grab” from the Spanish-American War?
How long was Russia in existence when it re-annexed Crimea?
“Two State Solution” – what is that, the revival of the Confederate States of America?
PS: whenever you see a tail wag a dog, you know that you’re looking a very strong tail…. or a very weak dog. What’s the last three things that Philip Giraldi did to strengthen the footing of the weak dog?
hey Talha, how about we make a fair compromise…. a religion gets to declare a place to be its “Holy City”, if the religion is indigenous to that place?
YHWH-cult and Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that
Mohammed-cult is indigenous to….. Saudi Arabia.
You can keep Mecca.
I’ll be shocked if the US does not go to war with Iran under Trump, but better war with Iran than war with Russia. The US Empire will have its war with somebody, so let it be with people who really can’t damage the US physically. I am curious to see if Trump deals with the Salafist supporters like Saudi Arabia and Qatar. The only thing Trump’s ambassador appointment did was to make the official policy visible to all. There is no faux liberal nonsense out there that can hide the emperor’s nakedness now. BDS is the only way to peacefully end the Israeli occupation. America’s unconditional support for Israel has already done damage to American interest in the Middle East. I guess even the idiots among the Muslim population can see what the true policy of the US and Israel has always been concerning the Palestinians now thanks to Trump. The appointment is a stroke of genius if what I read is correct and Friedman is to the right of Netanyahu. It changed nothing but the perception. Congress will fight the appointment I bet in order to keep the lie alive.
I’m not surprised. I can’t play the obtuse role, so I’ll just skip your comment instead.
Two more words: Mere quackery.
Who invented the concept, and who promoted it, and who profits from administering these so called “intelligence” tests?
They have about as much worth as the laughable Nobel prizes, Pulitzer prizes, and what not.
Just another manifestation of the endless self preening of the self promoted racially superior, self obsessed ones.
Only a gull would believe otherwise. Bunch of birdbrains, in fact.
Can someone explain this? I haven’t a clue what he or she is talking about.
Hey Karl,
Makes no difference to us; the Biblical prophets are ours too and we claim them as such.
This is not about belief because there is no way to argue about that; Buddhists can declare it to be a Holy City for all we care. We can simply show facts that, when Muslims had control of that city, they allowed Jews to reside there – often to the consternation of Christian voices.
There is no way the Muslim world will stand by if Israelis intend to empty out Jerusalem of its Muslim population (assuming I read the man’s words right). Not after spilling blood and pitting steel for nearly 14 centuries against Byzantines, Latins, Mongols, French, etc. for sovereignty.
Right now – everyone should try to stick to the UN plan for the city and not overstep any bounds in an already volatile situation.
Peace.
What ingenious constitutional arrangements do you forsee to allow Jewish fears of being swamped by Arab voters to be overcome?
Why should Native Born White American Christians continue to subsidize Greater Israel…and send off their teenage sons to die as canon fodder for Greater Israel?
Wally: P.S. — I admire your persistence regardless the considerable number of “sayanim volunteers” here, paid and unpaid, not to mention the many gatekeepers, the disinformed, etc. A lot is at stake for us all and it takes courage to look and see and speak up for sanity and freedom.
Lord,
does israel conquer america continent? And all the world is blaming america continent (of huge power posture) now?
Lord,
should america continent hug the huge of better temporary influences of israelis?
Lord,
we believe in YOU .. clearly unbelieve in any arsenal that hurt every human rights here and there
Lord,
does israel do conquer america continent of freedom?
I sometimes wonder if you are trolling as you don’t seem to be stupid. But the idea of the “people of Palestine” returning (sic – you aren’t referring in reality to many people who were their before) to “rebuild their villages” is beyond ludicrous. Who wants to live in a village these days? Villlages built again where now there is a factory or a freeway? What do you do for employment or home sites when your family has multiplied by five or ten times in number? As for the peaceful past!!
I never understood why “religious” Jews object to Palestinians co-habiting a common ancestral land; nor Hamas/Pals declaring their intention to throw every Jew into the sea.
I think Trump looks at reality, the one which Russia and many nations in the ME have bugun to embrace: Israel is to be the sovereign nation which extends citizenship to Palestinians in the WB. She has the wherewithals to execute this successfully. Pals in turn must pledge fealty to the state and work towards a better shared future. Those that wish not to, are free to leave with fair compensation.
Jews worried about the demographic future ought to do their bit, as in fact they have, rather busily it seems, with recent Jewish birth rates exceeding Pal rates.
for “only the Jewish people”
They would tread lightly in this regard. It is inconceivable that they would antagonize and cut themselves off from evangelical Christians. I have many contacts in that community and will put in a good word for you and your peeps concerning access to the Holy Sites if things get out of hand.
I am also quite confused – and going to the archive of this poster reveals no clues…
I can only ask:
“Allie, are you OK? Are you OK, Allie?”
Hopefully she has not been hit by a smooth criminal.
Peace.
At the risk of taking seriously mere trolling about psychometrics and its history allow me to ask what Nobel Prizes you are referring to in the same breath as Pulitzer Prizes as “laughable”.
Presumably the separately governed Peace Prizes? Possibly the late added Economics Nobels? Literature? But I don’t suppose you would want to dismiss the positive significance to hard science and medicine of the work which was honoured by about 98/99 per cent of the hard science Nobels awarded.
Well said!
OBAMA’S CHRISTMAS EVE ASSAULT ON FIRST AMENDMENT
The Countering Disinformation and Propaganda Act
The attack on our freedom of speech has begun. What do you bet that criticizing Israel gets labeled ‘Disinformation and Propaganda’? Not to mention any reporting on Syria or Ukraine that questions official US line.
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/12/26/under-cover-christmas-obama-establishes-controversial-anti-propaganda-agency
OBAMA GUILTY OF FELONY OR TREASON
Obama should be prosecuted for providing aid to terrorists.
Looks like Obama is setting booby-traps for P.E. Trump. But shouldn’t Obama be held accountable for his crimes? Since 2012 at least (i.e. his entire second term) Obama has been training and funding groups allied with terrorists. That is a crime. Any regular citizen would be prosecuted for providing aid to terrorists. The only question: felony or treason?
SENATE AND CONGRESS GUILTY OF AIDING AND ABETTING, OR OF MISPRISION, WHICH IS ALSO A FELONY
Apparently a commenter with the handle vintueil and egghead know each other. One doxed the other, I forget which, it doesn’t have anything to do with anything.
No way are “the rest of us” going to be left out of it. We’re hosts — parasites need those; too few of we-the-hosts seem to realize we don’t need our blood drained to the last drop though. And this has been going on for a very long time (google “Tacitus and the Jews”). “When will we ever learn?” in enough numbers to make a difference? Maybe we won’t.
Why is Israel so evil?
But at least we’ll finally get a war with Iran. Iran is a great nation with a great history (real history). Their people are proud of their country. So they’ll fight for it! Not like Saddams boys.
Who knows maybe even Israel will launch an attack on Hezbollah (though I doubt it).
The DoD opened combat positions to women expanding its recruitment pool for the eventual occupation force needed for Iran.
Think of all the movies and games that can be sold based on a new war with Iran in Western markets.
It’s gonna be great.
He is a Jewish rights warrior [or worrier] of sorts, decent enough chap I reckon; other than carrying a virulent hatred for those he considers antijewish. I had exchanged words with him on this forum.
This post is weird, to say the least, it suggests someone stalked and physically accosted him, with serious consequences. The mention of his own passing is suggestive of what Ron Unz had hinted at in those past exchanges – mental illness.
e.g., you might care to follow the thread on this one:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/what-do-jennifer-rubin-and-brett-stephens-have-against-nativism-oh-wait/?highlight=Sobran#comment-1586859
“I have no taste for confrontation…”
Anybody who’s curious can check out your posting history here and see for themselves your penchant for malice and dishonesty.
“But the idea of the “people of Palestine” returning (sic – you aren’t referring in reality to many people who were their before) to “rebuild their villages” is beyond ludicrous. Who wants to live in a village these days? Villlages built again where now there is a factory or a freeway? What do you do for employment or home sites when your family has multiplied by five or ten times in number? As for the peaceful past!!”
Especially when the Israelis are cutting down and burning all their olive trees. Which by the way is forbidden by the Old Testament as a gross sin.
You really aren’t familiar with peasant farmers, are you? Or olive trees for that matter. They take twenty years to mature and bear fruit for long centuries.
But turn the question around–why would the early Zionists want to return to Israel after more than a thousand years to refound and rebuild an ersatz”Israel” in the image of a Neo-Hegelian heresy, especially since many of them were atheists or agnostics?
Also why would anyone want to live the Holy Land of ticky tacky apartments, freeways, walls and so forth? Kibbutz perhaps one can understand, farming like the Palestinian peasants, right? Netanyahuesque real estate speculators’ pigeon holes?
Señor Trump is P. T. Barnum redivivus. He has never looked at reality in his life. What he sees is his name writ all over the landscape, inlaid with gold, classy looking broads, hotels, casinos and so forth. Has Señor Netanyahu promised him a high rise hotel casino overlooking the wall?
I am just speculating, but that commenter egregiously doxxed somebody else on this site a few months ago, he divulged his name, where he worked, he even posted selfies of the guy; it was unbelievably contemptuous. Maybe that guy, or some of his friends, or people who agree with his views (the guy who was doxxed was a white-nationalist type) sought out revenge??
Fish rot from the head.
And you have the gall to suggest trolling…
I also went to comment archives looking for clues but found none.
“Jews worried about the demographic future ought to do their bit, as in fact they have, rather busily it seems, with recent Jewish birth rates exceeding Pal rates.”
Interestingly enough, among the highest birth rates in Israel are Haredi Jews. One problem they range from indifferent to Zionism and Latter Day Israel to outright hostile to both:
“Given the current birth rate of about six children per Haredi mother, some predict they will make up 25% of the population within a few decades. And a significant proportion of these are somewhere on a scale from indifferent to downright hostile to the state of Israel, and refuse to serve in its army. Last year a uniformed IDF officer was pelted with stones, eggs and nappies in Mea Shearim.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/may/12/for-haredi-jews-secular-zionism-remains-a-religious-heresy
So after the Palestinians, who’s next on the Netanyahu Zionist Imperial hit list?
The Swedish Academy has an agenda even for the so-called “hard sciences” and medicine.
Did Henry Judah Heimlich get or even ever get seriously considered for a Nobel Prize in medicine, which he richly deserved?
Why not then? Answer that question even roughly according to reality and you will have uncovered some aspects of same agenda.
“It is Israel’s by right of conquest.”
Whose conquest was that–the Britishers?
Abraham or Avram came from Sumer. The Elohim were the gods of the lands now known as Israel/Palestine. Certainly, whatever one chooses to call the Creator it is surely the same one for all of us and for every living thing.
Stories about gods saying this and that regarding land or commandments are just the result of con tricks played on primitive, unsophisticated fools choosing to believe in an anthropomorphic God. That some people still believe and are still around to comment on The Unz Review is a sad commentary on our species.
What ingenious constitutional arrangements do you forsee to allow Jewish fears of being swamped by Arab voters to be overcome?
Good people – people of good will can always find a way to work things out.
The problem is that the Jews want it all – they do not want a solution.
It is clear from all the Jew comments – that is so.
Peace — Art
“In 1984 Dr. Heimlich, the recipient of many honors, won the Albert Lasker Public Service Award, one of the nation’s most prestigious medical science prizes, for a ‘simple, practical, cost-free solution to a life-threatening emergency, requiring neither great strength, special equipment or elaborate training.’…”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/us/dr-henry-j-heimlich-famous-for-antichoking-technique-dies-at-96.html
See that: “simple, practical, cost-free solution to a life-threatening emergency, requiring neither great strength, special equipment or elaborate training.”
You’re getting warm.
Since you despise us so much, why do you post here. Your attitude towards us is the same as the Jewish geniuses have towards us
How dare you Nancy’s bring your illiterate retard drama onto Unz.com
Just shoot each other already.
Who knows Robin,
Perhaps all the oligarchs who own the big media conglomerates as well as others, will all find themselves in orange jumpsuits and deposited in Guantanamo Bay for having defrauded the American people into the catastrophic Iraq war ?.
The citizenry of our nation were thoroughly conned out of trillions (upon trillions) of our tax dollars , to initiate a war of aggression and murder countless of innocent people who never attacked us on 9-11 …and never intended to .
Why is that okay ?
Why wouldn’t President Trump, who in his own words stated “they lied us into the Iraq war” make this a top priority of his administration ?
Is there one American , anywhere, who would complain if he did ?
Is there really one decent American citizen, you can find anywhere in our country, who enjoys being defrauded out of his or her dough to go murder tons of people who never did anything to anybody ?
I don’t think so….do you ?
Certainly the combined assets of these deceitful oligarchs, clawed back to our nations balance sheet (where it rightfully belongs) would go a long way toward funding the trillion dollar infrastructure projects President Trump wishes to get off the ground.
Wouldn’t they ?
Perhaps President Obama felt we should look forward and not back, but that was before the full realization of this massive, deceitful “war fraud”(as well as its outrageous costs) had crystallized in the minds of most Americans ….besides, the last time I checked there is no statute of limitations on murder…Is there ?
If all the pretexts for the Iraq war were contrived and phony from the get-go (and it seems quite clear now , that they were)…. why , pray tell, should the burden of the costs of that war be born on the backs of the 300 million Americans who were lied into it ?….Shouldn’t the liars…the “war propagandists” bear the burden ?
Wouldn’t passing a law against “War Fraud” and “War Propaganda” be a fine thing, especially if its made retroactive to 2002 ?
How else will they ever learn that “lying” us into “war” is NOT okay ?
How else will they learn that lesson ?
Salaam Qasim,
Live by the sword…I guess. Both acts are deplorable to me – seems a shame to try to destroy each others’ lives over a tiff on an anonymous forum – just my opinion.
Wa Salaam
“Is there one American , anywhere, who would complain if he did ?”
Dick Cheney?
The vat should be made of glass so all can see her torment
Hmmm.. Erdogan really seems to believe that the US was behind the recent coup.
Or maybe he is just sour at the US for having misled him that Assad would fall but not delivering on the promise.
Or maybe he is trying to push the blame on OTHERS when he himself clearly supported ISIS.
The conquest of territory vacated by the British, prevailing over local Arabs and the invading armies of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, and Jordan.
The British intended on giving Jews about half of modern Israel, but the British were never going to defend those intended borders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war
Average JEWISH IQ in Israel is something like 95. It will get lower because the hasids have most of the children and their state supported religious schools don’t go further than 4th grade
The basis kids don’t learn math much beyond 4 the grade. All the girls need to know is how to cook, have babies and go to the benefits office.
All the boys need to do us learn to read so they can spend the rest of their lives studying religion
Since the descendants of Russian commie Zionists have few kids and the various sects of looney orthodox have most of the kids Israeli IQ will get lower each generation
They would have preferred it to Islamic rule and viewed it as in accordance with the Bible.
If the muzzies ever take over Israel, guess where the Israeli Jews will all come!
I agree Ashkenazi Israelis have lower IQ than full-blooded non-Israeli Ashkenazi because the choice to become a farmer-soldier in Israel v a citizen of a safe Western democracy would have sorted by IQ.
Regression to the mean, however, would have greatly narrowed these differences by now.
Ultimately it isn’t very important going forward, as fewer and fewer full-blooded Ashkenazi are being born as they intermix with whites and asians in the USA and Sephardi and Slav-Ashkenazi hybrids from the former USSR.
That’s so funny, I was thinking the same thing, but instead of the Palestinians I was thinking Israel.
I mean, as an American, nothing would be better then to remove the Jewish enemy that currently infests this once great nation.
That just delayed the war with Russia though.
People here seem to be thrilled that Trump is bff with Putin. It is just a ruse. The game is to weaken China by turning Russia against China and to topple Iran. Then the US will use its superior military to take down China.
Once China is dealt with, the west will focus on economically destroying Russia. Russia cannot be controlled economically with China still standing, but without China the Russians can be starved into submission.
If you wonder why Russia is always a target no matter what, you need to read up on the Heartland and Mackinder. Russia is always the number 1 target.
So Suleiman the Mag was a lover and not a fighter? IMO, he had an ulterior motive since Jews possessed wealth, education and influence in Europe which could benefit the Ottoman Empire. I doubt it was because he was committed to religious tolerance and pluralism.
Spanish Jewish expellees were also welcomed by other Christian states like England, France, and Holland, so it wasn’t as if Christian Europe slammed the door shut on Jews. Only Spain did and it appears with pretty good reason depending on the historical account(s) once chooses to believe.
Some Muslims, blaming Jews for their own declining fortunes, committed atrocities against those making their journey to the coastal areas where ships would take them to other Christian states or places controlled by the Ottoman Empire. The Spanish Christians did little to protect them.
Yeah, I know. I’ve heard all the angles, believe me. I’ve certainly heard that one many times, anyway. 95% of everything I’ve ever heard, in fact, I heard first discussing the issue at Stormfront.
Just gonna have to live with the risk, I guess. The Sampson Option, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc.
Obviously Lot gave you reason to retaliate, so I’ve no objection there. But, Muslims really have no room to criticize along the lines you’ve chosen. You hold up a child-molesting bandit and murderer as your “perfect model of humanity”; your Christ, in effect.
Put another way, your greatest religious aspirations are to child-molesting, banditry, murder, etc. Sorry to break it to you, but this is baked into the Muslim cake.
I’m afraid any such pledge would be worthless.
They’re setting the stage for reclaiming Eretz Israel, in the name of Lebensraum. They won’t use that word much, though.
I mean, what will borders do to stop them? They’ll colonize Jordan, Lebanon, etc. And invade to “protect Jewish minorities there” in future. They can have PMCs do the day-to-day security, and run cross-border raids when the real military is needed. Who’s gonna stop them? The UN? On paper, it will still be Jordanian, Lebanese, etc., territory, but in reality, it will be Israeli.
The private bankers that conspired and created the unconstitutional Federal Reserve, control our currency and have an infinite supply of money. They own the United States (which was turned into a corporation in 1871). They own our gov’t, media, medical establishment and all major institutions. They created Israel and wreak havoc on the world in the form of wars. They control all the central banks (except for North Korea, Iran and Cuba) and therefore control the world.
They’re in the process of culling the world population through chemtrails, vaccines and wars. We need a worldwide awakening and revolution to take control back. There’s billions of us but unfortunately everyone is asleep.
“I agree Ashkenazi Israelis have lower IQ than full-blooded non-Israeli Ashkenazi because the choice to become a farmer-soldier in Israel v a citizen of a safe Western democracy would have sorted by IQ.”
I thought that one of the big unmentionable sins of the Zionists is that they turned away lots of Jews from British occupied Palestine during WWII, and afterwards, on the grounds that they were mentally and/or physically unfit for the planned Zionist state. The Zionists used eugenics against Jews, so you would think that the Ashkenazis in Israel would be at least on par with the Ashkenazis elsewhere. The sabras were supposed to be mentally and physically superior beings, which is ironic beyond belief on so many levels. They apparently failed on both goals.
Why don’t diaspora Jews make an issue of Israel’s rejection of other Jews as being unfit to be Israelis?
https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/05/nazi-zionist-eugenics.html
> Whose conquest was that–the Britishers?
no, it would be those souls who are currently sleeping in Israel’s numerous Military Cemeteries. Whatever we possess, was given to us by them, on a silver platter.
Outside materiel help & support is always gratefully accepted. However, those cemeteries are full of our own people.
> continue to subsidize Greater Israel…
if that money gets cut off…. fine with me, as long as you ALSO stop giving money & guns to our neighbors. Use the money to pay down your debt. History teaches us that merely paying of 1% of a debt can turn things around, a LOT.
> and send off their teenage sons to die as canon fodder for Greater Israel?
one of the favorite themes here. We didn’t directly gain anything from your Iraq or Afghanistan adventures. It is possible to posit second-order and third-order effects that were helpful to us….. however comma, i don’t think anyone can accurately measure those.
We get a LOT more results from dealing with those sorts of people ourselves, quietly. Consider the cases of two Muslim countries: Azerbaijan & Khazakhstan. Cureently de-facto aligned with us….. That was OUR foreign ministry, every step of the way.
By the way Talha, we have PLENTY of Muslims in the IDF and EVEN MORE in the Border Police. The only point of contention is YOUR refusal to stop, stopping Jews from praying on the Temple Mount. Even just closing your eyes and standing still up there, gets a Jew arrested by the Muslim Police.
There wasn’t one American soldier’s downrange deployment which cut even ONE DAY off the reserve duty Israelis still need to do to man checkpoints. Our problem is the Palestinians. Whatever happens in Anbar province or Kandahar province doesn’t change the daily reality of needing to put these Palestinians through metal-detectors to find knives. It just doesn’t.
Here’s the German “Lebensraum” version:
Germany is to be the sovereign nation which extends citizenship to Russians and Ukrainians in the Eastern Territories. She has the wherewithal to execute this successfully. Ethnic Russians and Ukrainians in turn must pledge fealty to the German state and work towards a better shared future. Those that wish not to, are free to leave with fair compensation.
Except that 1) It was Russian land to start with 2) It was taken by force 3) Ethnic Germans will form a new upper class and have economic priority 4) Many Russians and Ukrainians will be obliged to leave – and without compensation.
Nope.
10.4 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, we send in “aid” to Israel.
For what?!
Our goddamn infrastructure and everything else is LITERALLY falling apart around us in this country. Bridges collapsing. Roads with potholes the size of manhole covers causing deadly blowout accidents. Schools falling apart, Veterans dying while waiting for hospital visits, drug overdose death rates skyrocketing, homeless and jobless Americans in the millions. And the list goes on and on of issues that Americans need aid with.
But instead of using that money to try to fix these problems, in America, for Americans that need aid, what do we do?
We send 10.4 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY in “aid” to Israel.
For what?!
Imagine if we used that 10.4 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY on American aid instead of to destroy our International name by subsidizing the building of illegal settlements, the running of the worlds largest open-air prison, the maintaining of an apartheid wall, and slaughter of Palestinian families in their homes with weapons made and paid for by us.
Mr. Giraldi wrote yet another great piece with this “Welcome to Greater Israel” article. Here’s a “Welcome to Gaza” to see what our 10.4 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY has bought us. How much longer are we going to allow this to continue?
Whoa, what a way to miss the point. For all I care, they can build a super-futuristic metropolis, if they prefer; the point is that the region’s native people should be in control of their land; not exactly a novel or controversial concept.
It’s just that over 400 Palestinian villages have been depopulated and about a hundred of them destroyed by European settler-colonists since 1948…
An agenda you say? Who could have ever guessed, eh? Please don’t spoil the sweet dreams of the innocent, good sir! 😉
The Buzzard itself mentioned the “Peace” prize. That should have been its first clue.
The word ‘Barbarian’ in your title is redundant.
Fox Mulder, is that you?
Well I’ll grant that those escaping the shtetl had one thing in common with the Palestinian refugees’ descendants. That is an embarrassingly high fertility which was perhaps even more of a problem for them than those for whom the UN organises sustenance and shelter. But that is about as far as your comparison is useful. Palestine had a lot of underused land when the first Zionists arrived. Not true today of Israel apart from parts of the Negev. Small holdings and small scale co-operatives were an aspirational novelty as well as subject for romantic nostalgia 100 plus years ago for often illiterate, often intellectual socialist Jews. The situation of Palestinians in their diaspora or benefiting (somewhat) from the post WW2 refugee convention is very different.
As to your point about olives, as it happens I do know a bit about olives having chosen and planted quite a few by hand and picked the fruit. And your point about peasant farmers and olive trees directly contradicts your argument. Why would prople living poor but modern lives in towns or equivalently large refugee camps for three generations consider a deal which would allow those of them descended from olive owning peasants to plant small plantatations of olives which might, in 20 years time, begin to support a small fraction of the now extended family?
I wonder if it is time to cleanse official positions of “foreign agents” yet.
And “the press” worries about Russia…. (now Obama has announced “retaliation” for the clear-and-present influencing of US elections; this means there will be “events” in Russia in the next two weeks and maybe a few dead-by-terrorist ambassadors too; I wonder what the return ticket will be)
What is the argument of constitutional law which justifies the statement that the Federal Reserve is uncontitutional?
Has that argument ever been tested in the courts? If not why not?
I am surprised that you say Spanish Jews went to England and France. The Netherlands very likely but my recollection is that there were practically no Jews in England from their expulsion in the late 13th century until readmission under Cromwell. (I recall that some Jewish physician got blamed for something under Queen Elizabeth but he was no doubt blamed for misrepresenting the unique skills which justified his residency).
Reading your comments, it often seems like there’s a reasonable person struggling to get out underneath a bitter liar who resorts to ludicrous Procrustean logic chopping whenever pressed to defend his false claims.
OK -I won’t stop to question anything about your last paragraph but do ask that you flavour your suggestions with realism and perhaps work into any ethical argument some arguably relevant principles like those underlying statutes of limitations and prescriptive titles.
And it would be interesting to know how your suggested principles might apply to very many other occupations extending back to …. whatever date you choose to justify …. including Tibet, Taiwan, West Irian, Crimea, Goa, Matabeleland, Western Sahara, Northern Cyprus, Amazonia etc etc.
Reality.
1948-1967. During the Jordanian occupation of East Jerusalem, all Jewish residents were expelled, Jewish access to holy sites was forbidden, all synagogues were destroyed and their stones were used for public latrines.
1967- Present. After the liberation of the undivided capital of the Jewish people. Muslims live in East Jerusalem, they retain ownership of and access to all their holy sites, freedom of religion of all is respected, with the exception of Jews who are not allowed to pray on the temple mount, in violation of the Israeli constitution. By way of thankyou for the undeserved magnanimity of the Israeli government, Jerusalem’s Muslims use their “holy” Al Aqsa to hold frequent riots, sometimes throwing Molotov cocktails into the Western Wall plaza.
But biting the hand that feeds you whilst lying about it is just what Muslims do, always and everywhere.
Hey Lot,
From a historical basis; every time the Christians (Antiquity or Medieval) got hold of the cities of the Holy Land it usually did not turn out well for the Jews. Here are some citations I’ve made before…
Taking just the city of Jerusalem as an example, here is what journalist and historian Nissim Rejwan (an Iraqi Jew) wrote about the phenomenon:
“It is interest to note here that, as far as Palestine is concerned, the right of Jews to ‘return’ to live in this small area of land was accepted by all successive Muslim rulers from the Muslim conquest to the end of the nineteenth century, when Zionist settlement there became entangled in European weltpolitik. Gibb and Bowen relate how, when the Jews of Europe ‘learned of the paradisiacal life awaiting them in Turkey’ and many of them set out for Palestine, it was not the Muslims who objected but the [Christian] Franciscans of Jerusalem, ‘who talked the Pope into forbidding the Venetians to carry Jewish passengers to the Holy Land.’ This was not the first time Jerusalem Christians tried to prevail on Muslim rulers to ban Jews from living in the city. A similar attempt was made first when the second Caliph, Omar, entered Jerusalem at the time of its conquest by the Muslim army in the seventh century, and again when Salah ad-Din [Saladin] drove out the Crusaders in the twelfth. On both of these occasions, the Christian patriarch of the city tried to persuade the Muslim conquerors to prevent Jews from living in or (as in the latter case) returning to Jerusalem after they had been expelled from it by the Christians. Both Omar and Salah ad-Din refused to heed their pleas.”
Israel’s Place in the Middle East: A Pluralist Perspective
The ban that Umar (ra) lifted had been in place for 500 years:
“Umar fulfilled the hopes of Jews by refusing the church’s request to continue the ban against Jewish residence and inviting them back into the city. In the seventh century, as Jerusalem came into Muslim hands, the ban on Jewish residence was lifted. After approximately 500 years of being Judenrein, Jerusalem again included a Jewish community. Jews long banned from living in Jerusalem by Christian rulers, were permitted to return, live, and worship in the city of Solomon and David.”
http://www1.american.edu/ted/hpages/jeruselum/muslim.htm
“Omar permitted the Jews to reestablish their presence in Jerusalem–after a lapse of 500 years…Jewish tradition regards Omar as a benevolent ruler…”
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_15096.html
Peace.
Stupid question, stupid answer. Apart from anything else, the Crusaders wouldn’t consider the Protestant population of the US to be legitimate Christians. I doubt they’d consider the Pope to be a Christian. What is the point in talking about stupid stuff like this? Is Bibi going to sack Venice or something?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople_(1204)
Hey Karl,
Yes the Circassians (being the tough Caucasians that they are) have historically been some of our toughest fighters too. Anybody who doesn’t take advantage of the martial prowess is wasting good material.
I don’t refuse them anything. That land is supposed to be shared as well as the Holy sites. I think this is deplorable if it is happening – I’m sure accommodations can be made from a logistical perspective so the Palestinian authorities should make it so. I like Arab nationalism and supremacy about as much as I do the Jewish kind.
A citation about this legal restriction would be much appreciated.
Peace.
Not much lower probably because those descendants of the late Medieval hasids largely preserve the good genes (don’t hold me to precise knowledge of Jewish history but my understanding is that the selection for cognitive abilities ended by about 1650 when Askenazi population growth meant there were many more young people than could make money as bankers, merchants or estate managers and that at about the same time the Hasidic emotional forms of Judaism took off). The very large families of Haredim (I may be confused but aren’t they sometimes caĺled Ultra Orthodox?) are so inbred in Israel that they have lots of retarded children but thatof course doesn’t prevent the other children preserving and reproducing the good genes.
I would challenge you to justify the suggestion of trolling except that you are so clearly trying to divert attention from your having just blurted out whatever rubbish popped into your head on a subject of which you knew bugger all. You make no attempt to justify your crude bluster to which I was replying with questions designed to elucidate what you meant and in a later post make it even clearer that you are ignorant of what you claim to have an opinion about by failing to note that the Peace Prize is awarded by the Norwegians, not the Swedes!
Better to stop digging.
Hey KenH,
He was both; the number of concubines those sultans had – let me tell ya! I think the citation already states ‘Playing to Messianic expectations…’ which connotes ulterior motives.
You have that wrong – those policies were good for commerce and taxation; the sultans took full advantage:
“For a long time the Ottoman empire was a relatively benign regime. In the sixteenth and seventeenth century, as the kings of Christian Europe were burning heretics at the stake, the sultans saw to it that the various religions in their empire were protected from each other…It was a regime of material self-interest, designed to increase the wealth and power of the Ottoman dynasty, but taxes were not very burdensome and some of the empire’s great wealth filtered back to the subject populations.”
https://my.vanderbilt.edu/robertdrews/files/2014/01/Chapter-Thirty.-The-Ottoman-Empire-Judaism-and-Eastern-Europe-to-1648.pdf
Never implied that, but what does this have to do with the discussion of Palestine? I could also cite that the same Jews settled in Morocco and Egypt – but, who cares?
Citation would be nice, but let’s take it at face value that ignorant Muslim mobs committed violence to minorities as they do today.
It would not be surprising that his predecessor, the Caliph Beyazid II, who took in Jewish refugees from the original ejection from Spain sent the royal navy to help pick them up under royal protection:
“During the years 1490 to 1497 Sultan Bayezid II accepted the exiled Jews from Italy, Spain and Portugal. In 1492 Kemal Reis and his fleet were sent to Cadiz to take the Jews in charge…The last lot of Jews gathered in the port of Cadiz faced a dilemma: Those who left port were attacked by the pirates, those who went on land were burned at the stake by the inquisition. About a thousand people waited in anguish. At the last minute arrived a small fleet manned by the Turkish admiral Kemal Reis who took the refugees under his protection.”
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/sultans1.html
He also issued an edict to stop harassment, which would not have been necessary had it not been a potential problem:
“The Grand Rabbi Moshe Kapsali (1420-1495), leader of the Jewish Nation, who resided in Constantinople and enjoyed favor of the Imperial Court, had obtained from the Sultan a firmanwhereby the ‘penalty of death’ was decreed against anyone who would dare to mistreat them (the Sephardi immigrants) or cause the slightest injury.”
History of the Turkish Jews and Sephardim: Memories of a Past Golden Age
Peace.
Hey Gabriel,
Citations would be nice.
But see my comment to KenH. If that happened or is happening – then it is a gross violation of the historic trust we have over administration of those lands and sites. The Muslims who are doing that are condemned by their own sacred law for those violations. As I said, I like Arab nationalism as much as Jewish kind.
I keep on hearing similar claims about Jews – but I know better than to pay such nonsense any attention.
Peace.
Opinion is changing – I remember on a forum such as this when there would be only a couple of comments critical of Israel. Now, such comments are sometimes the majority – comments excusing/glorifying Israel’s racism and land-theft are becoming the minority, and a hysterical minority at that making little sense. Of course, people willing to comment on public forums, are not the whole electorate, but they are usually on the front edge of public opinion, and that is moving against Zionism. The politicians will lag, because they are not the smartest and they are always looking for a bribe (e.g. the Clintons). I wouldn’t put Trump in this category. When he figures out that backing the racism and the land-theft of the Zionists is a losing position, he will be the next target of Netanyahu’s temper tantrums.
The Sun is setting on racist Imperial Israel, and I don’t believe that any celestial being is going to interfere.
As far as I’m aware, Israel is the only active case of Western settler colonialism today. If you know of any other case, name it.
According to Profs. Mearsheimer and Walt:
I can give you a personal citation.
I visited the temple mount with a friend on the morning of his wedding. First we were searched, reasonably enough, for weapons. Then we had a second search for prayer articles. For instance, they checked my wallet to see that I didn’t have a copy of Psalms or grace after meals. Also, as normal, we weren’t allowed to take water with us since we would make a blessing on it. While on the temple mount we were surrounded by armed (Israeli) guards with their Uzis pointed inwards at us. I briefly kissed a rock with my hands and was a reprimanded by a soldier. All the time leering Arabs filmed us on behalf on one of the thousands of NGOs that infest this country whilst Arab women shouted abuse (my Arabic is remedial, but I know well enough what Yahud means). Whilst leaving I bowed slightly and was arrested. They let me go pretty quickly though I had to return and sign a statement saying I would never attempt to pray at the Temple Mount again.
Anyway, if you were generally curious about the ban on Jewish prayer on our temple that you stole, you could just use google. Instead of telling everyone how reasonable Muslims are and how their misbehavior is always someone else’s fault, why don’t you devote your energies to actually encouraging your fellow Muslims to actually acting reasonably. If you did that the following list would be a hell of a lot shorter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
You could be right and I remembered that after my post, but also recall reading somewhere years ago that small number of them were still able to sneak into England between the Spanish expulsion and their formal readmission in 1656. Kind of like how the U.S. has laws against illegal aliens being here yet we have millions of them (likely tens of millions).
P.S. This is how Palestinians treat Jewish holy sites today whilst under this terrible occupation they find so onerous, but we should give them East Jerusalem too because of some stuff that Talha said about what happened 500 years ago.
http://www.takeapen.org/Takeapen/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=84&FID=954
Hey Gabriel,
Like I said, I don’t think Muslims have a right to prohibit Jews from praying at their sacred sites as long as it can be reasonably accommodated. So you were harassed by armed Israeli guards? Interesting…
Ummm, that was the Romans. And then the Byzantines banned your folk for centuries until our folks beat their armies and garrisons back and let you back in. That is according to your own historians – see my citations. Feel free to cite evidence that Muslims historically prevented Jews from praying at the Temple Mount before all this modern-day Israeli nonsense erupted. Academic sources, please. And, as I keep stating, modern day Muslim governments should not be preventing Jews from praying there – it is not their right.
Some are quite reasonable, some obviously aren’t.
Our misbehavior is indeed our fault, your misbehavior is indeed yours.
That list would also be shorter if the US government did not have an idiotic foreign policy – often set by neo-Conservatives – who have quite a lot of your folk in their cadre. Or do you think Iraq just pulled itself apart out of the blue? We need to work on our murderous and callous people, you need to work on yours.
Peace.
I agree that during that era, Jews were better treated by Muslims than the Crusader Kingdoms.
They (jews) control all the central banks (except for North Korea, Iran and Cuba) and therefore control the world.
The Brits are building a steel mote around Rothschild in London. Got to protect the Jew and his money.
Sadly – you can only get this in the Russian media.
Peace — Art
Hey Gabriel,
Go up the thread and actually read what I said was the specific issue I had with Friedman’s statement and what I recommended that people should adhere to.
Don’t read a bunch of stuff into my statements that I never made and definitely don’t put words in my mouth – that is just decent etiquette.
But yes, if you or anybody else is going to try to rewrite history on this matter (including those who don’t recognize that rabid Arab nationalism – or extremism – of the post-colonial era had a lot to do with why Jews left their ancestral homelands like Iraq, Yemen, Algeria, etc.) – then yes, expect push back from me.
Peace
Due to Zionist 5th columnist occupying key positions at virtually every level within the US government, Israel has emerged the real winner of every US presidential election since Woodrow Wilson became president, followed by implementation of the Federal Reserve Act, World War One – the rest is history.
Nothing but you brought the subject up. I was just trying to add a little balance to things.
See the book titled The Last Crusader: Isabella of Spain for an account.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1153174.Isabella_Of_Spain
Regarding the “sephardstudies.org” link, no doubt Turkish Muslim fleets picked up Jews at Cadiz and other places, but the rest of the account seems to be highly partisan and propagandistic (appears to be a Jewish source). I haven’t studied the minutiae of that time, but it’s likely the Jews made a payment to the Ottomans for their assistance or there was a quid pro quo arrangement of some sort since altruism simply wasn’t in the DNA of the Muslim Ottomans. And there’s no accounts I know of where Spanish Christians were waiting on shore with flammable material in which to summarily immolate Jews who didn’t board the Muslim vessels.
Makes for sexy atrocity propaganda, though.
Rarely repeated. Bill Clinton 1996 received a demanding letter that 7 middle east countries be destroyed for security of Israel. Then the same Chosen Ones, again sent a 1999 letter demanding a New Pearl Harbor Event take place to get Americans rallied up.
Need I say more what took place for the event to succeed?
The article is jest. Thanks!
Good points all.
See Netanyahu out on the end of a limb vigorously sawing.
The Jews chief Zombie hard at work showing the contempt and loathing they have for humanity.
So you are only referring to the West Bank? And you put Israel with its UN recognised boundaries as on the same footing, though older, as Tibet with its Han settlers and West Irian with its Javanese settlers?
Why are you only concerned by European origin settlement?
Please look at the following article that is written by an expert many trust. Unfortunately, now I have a doubt about him. To me, he is a closet zionist like chomsky. He always protect Israel from exposure and goes to the extreme to hide the obvious facts.
The wars in the middle east and Africa is waged by the criminal zionist bankers supported by the zionist tribe for ‘greater Israel’, where Porter never talk about it. We never trust the criminal zionist tribe and their stooges.
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2016/12/27/behind-real-us-strategic-blunder-syria/
People should be ready to wipe the pathological liar and zionist stooge trump from the political scene. Trump showed that he is a criminal like the tribe and zionist bankers and their servants.
What the Obama regime did on UN resolution was toooooooooooo little and tooooooooooooo
late. He was a zionist servant to the bone. Obama is not a friend of Sunnis, as Porter suggest, he is a war criminal.
No, I’m referring to Palestine. I don’t think the UN vote was legitimate.
West had been doing it for centuries, till in the second part of the last century colonialism collapsed, was condemned as an unacceptable practice, and the colonial period ended (except in Palestine), with official proclamation of all peoples’ right to self-determination. Tibet is a province of China, and Tibetans are equal Chinese citizens, so I don’t think the concept of colonialism is applicable there.
If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this. I am a non- interventionist libertarian, but was able to recognize a dangerous, juvenile psychopath as more dangerous than anything or anyone else.
It ought not to be forgotten that egghead was the one who doxxed vinteuil.
[Ummm, that was the Romans. And then the Byzantines banned your folk for centuries until our folks beat their armies and garrisons back and let you back in. That is according to your own historians – see my citations.]
I’m afraid this is nonsense, Talha. In rightfully rejecting Zionist slander against Muslims, you should not be ready to accept Zionist slander against anybody else.
Hey KenH,
Possibly, beacuse it does seem dramatic, but there is no doubt – as you said – that the Ottoman navy helped pick up Jewish refugees.
Conjecture and opinion, which I will file with the rest unless you have a source.
I already cited a source mentioning that Ottomans (like most monarchs – Muslim and not) were often only concerned with their own self interest. Which is why some of them (like other monarchs – Muslim and not) would assassinate kin to gain the throne:
“Before then, Ottoman succession had been governed by the “law of fratricide” drawn up by Mehmed II in the middle of the 15th century. Under the terms of this remarkable piece of legislation, whichever member of the ruling dynasty succeeded in seizing the throne on the death of the old sultan was not merely permitted, but enjoined, to murder all his brothers (together with any inconvenient uncles and cousins) in order to reduce the risk of subsequent rebellion and civil war. Although it was not invariably applied, Mehmed’s law resulted in the deaths of at least 80 members of the House of Osman over a period of 150 years.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-ottoman-empires-life-or-death-race-164064882/#ksWHghfkEhXOMhSl.99
No doubt these were grim men – and not just ‘Selim the Grim’.
That’s why we don’t look to them, but rather people like Umar al-Khattab (ra) from the first generation for guidance on things like this. If the Ottoman behavior comports, cool – if not, we throw it away.
As for what was truly in the heart of Sultan Beyazid II when he made his decrees, only God (and apparently you) can know.
Peace.
Angry US born Jew trashes America – calls America shameful.
This tribe of Zionist Jew Zombies will say anything to cover up their evil – no relationship is sacred to them. After all that we have done, and are doing for them, they call us “shameful.”
They are no friend – they see no friends – they see people they can manipulate – Jews are truly a people apart.
Hey 5371,
Could you elaborate, please? I definitely don’t want to slander anybody.
I thought it was well known that the Romans besieged Jerusalem and destroyed the temple way back in the first century. Isn’t that acknowledged by Roman accounts? I guess if you mean; way back then, everyone stole from everyone else as long as they had the army to back them up, in which case I understand where you are coming from.
And regarding the Muslims letting the Jews back into Jerusalem; our own historical sources indicate the Christians asked them not to be let in according to the terms of surrender.
So I don’t want to be a mouth piece for Zionism, but I thought these two things are fairly universally recognized. I’ll readily acknowledge my error if you have a sound source.
Peace.
that was beautiful
Anyone who believed that Trump was pro America over the jew welfare state when Trump has nothing but Jewish grandchildren is a complete imbecile or traitor and that includes Patrick J Buchanan.
It is known as Eretz Israel.
So I don’t want to be a mouth piece for Zionism
Heaven forbid that you would defend a nation state that mixes the religious with the secular.
In Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution, it specifically confers on Congress the express powers to coin money and regulate the value of it.
It does not grant the power to establish a private central bank (with stock holders as the owners).
At quick glance, it looks as if there are only lawsuits on the basis of paper money vs. coins. The constitution cites coinage and some legal cases say paper legal tender is unconstitutional.
My hunch is that any serious legal threat to the Federal Reserve would be met with loss of life.
Probably not, Lot.
A recent example was Pope Pius X’s refusal to acquiesce to Herzl’s demand that the Church support a Jewish state in Palestine.
When all Jews around the world are accused of being Zionists and instruments of ersatz Israel, the game is exactly the same game played by Señor Netanyahu and his ilk, whose recent Papal Bull, for example, just called for all “Jews” to leave France.
Wonder if that includes Sarkozy?
Probably at least half the posters that post such trash are paid and unpaid Israeli agents. The other half–well, what they are is pretty apparent as well, even those who are part of the new Trumpist White Nationalist Zionist Coalition, along with the likes of Zionist Fundamentalist “Christians” like the most Reverend Hagee.
There’s one born every minute indeed.
“High Intelligence Quotient” is three words.
Ersatz eretz Latter Day Israel, to be exact.
“Palestine had a lot of underused land when the first Zionists arrived”
You realize, one is sure, that is straight John Locke, right? “Improvement”, jeje.
Will, say, Sandburg Village and Trump Tower be airlifted or carried by ship to ersatz Israel, or is replicating them sufficient, as is now the case?
The younger Netanyahu, one suspects, was already covertly a bit jealous of his close friend Señor Trump, during the latter’s salad days. But he picked up enough, obviously, to master a strictly State Capitalist US-subsidized version of real estate speculation, eh?
Did Señor Trump pick up the “seduction by furniture store shopping” from Señor Bibi, do you think?
Hey iffen,
I have far, far less problems with that than I do with a state based on ethno-centrism or ethno-superiority. Like I said – if a proposed Palestinian state is simply a carbon copy of another corrupt militarized Arab nation state then what is that worth? Not much to me.
Read simply about Iraqi Jews (an ancient community that is gone now) – just the excerpt of the first chapter (especially that poem):
“As the book reveals, the ultimate displacement of this community was not the result of a perpetual persecution on the part of their Iraqi compatriots, but rather the outcome of misguided state policies during the late 1940s and early 1950s. Sadly, from a dominant mood of coexistence, friendship, and partnership, the impossibility of Arab-Jewish coexistence became the prevailing narrative in the region—and the dominant narrative we have come to know today.”
http://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=20419
“Jews were an integral part of Iraqi society from the centuries it existed as part of the Ottoman Empire, through the British-Arab alliance following World War I that resulted in its creation as an independent state. King Faisal’s benevolent rule over this new state fostered an atmosphere of tolerance and equality which ended abruptly with his death in 1933, after which rising anti-Jewish and Pan-Arabic sentiment led to restrictions on all phases of Jewish life, culminating in the establishment of a pro-Nazi government and a notorious deadly pogrom against the Jews known as the Farhoud in 1941.”
http://cs.nyu.edu/shasha/papers/iraqlastjews.html
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html
This is what the evil twins of Arab and Jewish nationalism (Zionism) have wrought – the destruction of an ancient (we’re talking from Babylonian times) distinct identity (how long do you suppose it will survive in Israel before it disappears) – and this is not the only one. The only distinct one having survived is probably that of the Morocco.
People say this is progress…I have my doubts.
Peace.
Right–the holy land should be occupied by Jews who denigrate Jesus, not by Muslims who honor Jesus as a might prophet. Sounds like Jewish and Trump logic…
No-one ever banned Jews from Palestine. Hadrian seems to have banned them from Jerusalem after the Bar-Kochba revolt in 135 AD, but the prohibition was reversed within a generation.
“We didn’t directly gain anything from your Iraq or Afghanistan adventures.”
Ah, “directly” no doubt cloaking in silence, say, Iraq’s support and subsidies to Palestinians, the Palestinian guest workers in Kuwait, etc., right?
It is accurate to say, however, that many of the level-headed Israeli officials in and out of government thought that the US coalitions’ marches upcountry, during both wars against Iraq, were incredibly stupid and could backfire.
Most of these, however, wanted a US attack on Iran instead.
Hey 5371,
Correct – I thought I was specific about Jerusalem. I thought that the reversal was only to permit worship once in a while at the site of the temple but not residency, no?
Peace.
Answer: The same people who, during the process of compiling the Old and New Testaments, appointed themselves the Chosen Ones, the rightful owners of Palestine, plus assigned themselves the designated rulers of all nations of the earth. It’s all right there in black and white. Read it in your spare time.
Bravo.
You missed, in fact, the fact that international Jewry is solely responsible for the tricked, bribed, forced legislation across the White western world which admits millions of uneducated, illiterate, unassimilable, racist, White-hating Moslems without passports, to drain White economies with fraudulent welfare claims, rape and traffic White females for Moslem prostitution and secret pig-god sacrifice, fund blood-soaked deranged maniacs to build and detonate bombs in White population centres, and beyond all of that fashion legislation which curtails and severely punishes free speech by all those openly critical of these things.
Add to that the fact that international Jewry has been engaged in a decades-long war of direct, subtle cultural Marxist propaganda via an endless stream of advertising, fashion and cinema content corruption, LGBT filth and shameless mass media lies, all designed to weaken, corrupt, undermine and destroy the morality and the morale of once-Christian White nations, and you begin to grasp the bigger picture, and the longer game.
Now that you have understood that Jews, as they have always been, are the curse of the earth, try furthering your education and knowledge of the true depths of their nation-wrecking evil, by going here:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2016/12/philip-giraldi-on-the-anti-semitism-awareness-act/
It is awesome to watch Jewish vote going Democrat regularly then being fucked up the ass by a crowbar by Obama.
As Maxwell Smart said, “loving every minute of it”.
There was no bar on residency.
So Obama allowed a toothless symbolic resolution, apparently favoured even by most American Jews, to pass the SC. What good will that do?
What has happened to Rehmat? I haven’t seen him recently.
“What good will that do?” – It helps Trump.
And what was Hillary? Oh I guess you voted for that know-nothing Johnson?
Hey 5371,
No problem – but this contradicts many academic sources that I’ve read. Can you provide just one source? I’m not trying to be difficult, if you have a solid source with an alternative narrative, I would actually welcome being exposed to it honestly.
Peace.
Trump made a lot of tempestuous declarations during election time. He is now backing off most of them or at least adding a grain of salt.
For Trump it seems that the mantra is ” Show me the money”
He will not give free ‘gifts’ to Israel anymore. Israel is a rich country and can pay. So if Trump gives money to Israel he will make sure he gets something worth it in return.
What can Israel give back to Trump now that the elections is over and the Jewish voters, in majority democrats lost? More support from the Congress? What else?
Well, Trump wants to be the president who solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, a conflict largely responsible for the violent anti-americanism in the region. That anti-americanism is the source of Al Qaedan, ISIS and other Islamist groups.
Trump will do all he can to eliminate such extremists but he will want to go to the root: who are funding them and how to stop its proliferation. Israel’s abuses on Palestinians feeds Islamist extremist. He will have to deal with that decisively.
Therefore I expect Trump to be much tougher on Israel than the Obama administration.
Israel may come to regret Obama who was just a naive and powerless enemy
I wondered the same thing a while back – no whisper from him (well, he wasn’t one for whispering) since a month back. iffen and I were speculating that he came across Sherman and, well…Sherman is still around…
But he’s still blogging at his old stomping grounds.
Peace.
Yes, and I don’t think I said otherwise. But I know enough about that era to know that there were no free lunches and the Ottoman empire wasn’t exactly the international red cross.
Of course, I don’t want to single out the Ottomans too much because the British Empire had their warts, too. However, the Brits never murdered 1.5 million people in cold blood, but I digress.
Mr Talha: neither I nor any friend of mine has ever done “egghead…” any harm. I do not even know who he is.
BTW – for me, this is no longer an “anonymous forum.”
I believe I am the only poster here who has ever been treated like this.
“I believe I am the only poster here who has ever been treated like this.”
I do not know the story. What happened?
If you include the Greeks and Syrians, the number swells to 3.5 million:
No, but they might have been a party to the starvation of plenty more (the jury is still out on this one as far as numbers and intentions – so keep your eyes on it) – but that’s OK because as Churchill said:
“The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html
But, as to the Ottomans…if you read the details on the history, you will know this was not the work of the Ottoman sultans nor the Muslim scholarship. In fact, the sultan had been effectively deposed and replaced by the ‘Three Pashas’ that ran the empire and ushered in an era of nationalist Turkification under the secular-modern ‘Committee of Union and Progress’. This led to both the Armenian Genocide as well as a host of other horrific events and kick-started the Arab revolts against the modernist reforms as threats to their religion and traditions.
The Armenians recognize this:
“The Young Turks were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide….. The most ideologically committed party in the entire movement, the CUP espoused a form of Turkish nationalism which was xenophobic and exclusionary in its thinking. Its policies threatened to undo the tattered fabric of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious society. Taking advantage of the political confusion reigning in the aftermath of the First Balkan War which the Ottoman Empire lost in 1912 to its former subject states, the CUP seized power in a coup d’etat in January 1913.”
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/young_turks.html
Which is why Armenian nationalists hunted them down like dogs and assassinated them – since they had sought exile in European countries:
Those that were prosecuted and were sentenced to death by the Ottomans once the sultan was back in charge (again, same Armenian site as above):
“The post-war Ottoman government convened tribunals in 1919 to hear testimony on the conduct of the war and the implementation of the Armenian Genocide. While many second rank figures were prosecuted individually, the party as a whole was indicted for the crimes of conspiracy and massacre. The verdicts found the accused guilty of capital crimes, but the principal culprits were only tried in absentia.”
And whoever was around had their death sentence signed off by the Grand Mufti:
“When the Sultan received the papers for signature the day after Kemal’s conviction, already sanctioned by the grand vizier and the defense minister, the monarch hesitated. He wanted Shiekh ul-Islam to issue and appropriate fatwa…This version was eventually composed and incorporated in a new fatwa bearing Seikh ul-Islam Mustafa Sabri’s signature.”
Judgment At Istanbul: The Armenian Genocide Trials
So – it was actually the weakening of the Ottoman caliphate and the rise of a deplorable Turkish-nationalist modernism that led to the massacres…and a boat load of other stuff we are still talking about on this thread.
Peace.
Hey vinteuil,
I understand – which is why I always advocate for people to keep their cool and just hold discussions no different than you would if you were sitting across the person.
Peace.
Another reason why I abhor ethnic nationalism.
I don’t believe many if any “Trumpists” ever claimed he would be a consistent anti-Zionist, a consistent protectionist, a consistent nativist, a consistent isolationist etc. What they did claim is, he that he went much further in the direction of economic nationalism ,ethno-nationalism, non-interventionism than any other candidate. Along with bringing an element of potential chaos to the mix, which could be advantageous. Along with freeing Russia’s hand to bring some stability to the Mideast, in part by occasioning opportunities for Hezbollah and Iran and other freedom fighting forces to do their thing.
Hey Geo,
No doubt about that – though some of the figures look a bit inflated. As the Ottoman Empire was spiraling downwards it was getting quite desperate to maintain control (especially at the fringes where it was afraid of losing land to other empires like Russia) and became (as I’ve mentioned before) hyper-violent. Is it surprising or unique to the Ottomans? Possibly, with the right combo of having an alpha group and modernized weaponry to make massacres more effective. Nations and empires that are pulled apart in civil wars and strife get fairly violent along ethnic and religious lines – even in modern times, Yugoslavia being an example.
Peace.
Hey, Talha. If I didn’t know better, I ‘d think you were rationalizing genocide.
Here’s an exchange I once had with Linh Dinh:
Peace
Tibet used to be an independent country with a Tibetan, not Han, population (indeed there was once some sort of Tibetan empire extending to the Bay of Bengal if my memory is correct) so when did it become a province of China and did it remain a province of China without self determination without interruption ever after (if you are referring to some pre 1951 event)?
What makes it OK to allow Tibetans to be reduced to a minority in their own province?
What do you say about Taiwan which was colonised by the Japanese in the 1890s and then the Nationalist refugees in 1949? What is your comparative analysis of that situation?
And of the Javanese settlements on West Irian land since 1961? (And how does it compare with the once claimed and colonised but now independent Timor L’Este? ).
Geo,
You obviously take pride in your questions. How about answering one for us. Where do you stand on Holocaust denial?
>It is known as Eretz Israel.
…and includes these United States.
Sam put this same question to me once before. I downloaded a number of primary sources that are related to this issue but haven’t had the opportunity to read them, yet. What I can say is this, while there may be disputes about the exact number that perished, the means by which they were disposed, and whether there were explicit orders given to carry it out, there is no disputing that significant numbers of Jews were rounded up and placed in concentration camps and that significant numbers perished.
The big difference of course, is that we made the indigenous people of the US full citizens. Israel never made the Palestinians in the occupied territories full citizens. See how simple it is to debunk Zionist tropes?
Hey Geo,
Rationalizing genocide? Yes.
Meaning, what were the conditions to set the events in motion such that they turned out the way they did given the circumstances especially at that particular time in Ottoman history? Unfortunately, ‘population transfer’ was in vogue at that time when dealing with resisting populations; Russians/Circassians, US/Native Americans, British/Boers, and later Italians/Libyans, etc. Forensics really – since it is good to learn from the tragic events of the past.
Justifying genocide? No.
Peace.
Mr. Trump, Stop Being An Ass. America First and Support for Israel Are Polar Opposites.
by Michael Scheuer, former CIA intelligence officer(22 years) , American blogger, author, foreign policy critic, and political analyst. He is currently an adjunct professor at Georgetown University’s Center for Peace and Security Studies.
Full article @
http://non-intervention.com/
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46121.htm
geokat “What I can say is this, while there may be disputes about the exact number that perished, the means by which they were disposed, and whether there were explicit orders given to carry it out, there is no disputing that significant numbers of Jews were rounded up and placed in concentration camps and that significant numbers perished.”
Well, the holocaust revisionists do NOT dispute any of the above, of course. BUT, the above does NOT ‘The Holocaust’ make. The official version is rotten, a huge hoax, really.
As Prof.T.Dalton explained:
If you set about studying the issue in depth, then you have to actually read what the other side is saying… otherwise there is no real point.
“He”? Is it all done by one obsessive? As you may recall I have more than once referred to the “Rehmat syndicate” (could have been “task force”). And to the youths he employs in Islamabad. Of course I don’t know but sometimes the Rehmat stuff is so madly illogical, unfactual and unrelated to what it purports to reply to that it seems impossible that it could be the work of a professionally educated adult.
Assange: Forget Russia,The Real Threat to America comes from Israel and the Israel Lobby
said Assange from his refuge in the Ecuador Embassy in London.
> There is no way the Muslim world will stand by if Israelis intend to
based on the EVIDENCE, what the “Muslim world” wants, is to turn Europe into the eastern-most suburb of Karachi
Really??! You’ve got to be joking! Such actions you mentioned are a serious breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions. The last Zionist attack on Gaza was on civilians and civilian infrastructure. No American soldiers will even be used for such blatant atrocities.
You know quite well that in the scenario you just mentioned, the vast majority of casualties would be civilians. The war against Gaza proved that.
Modern Israel’s not even a legitimate state, according to the Torah. It’s the HQ of the Rothschild Khazar Mafia. According to the Torah, the Jews of 1st and 2nd Century Israel had defied God’s Commandments to the point wherein the occupying Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd Temple and scattered the inhabitants throughout the edges of the Roman Empire as punishment for their defiance. In the Torah, there’s a passage that even states that after the dispersion and the end of Biblical Israel, God forbade the restoration of the Israeli Kingdom; that Israel was to exist in spirit only.
MUST READ
The Staggering Cost of Israel to Americans
This report was produced by If Americans Knew analysts, particularly Pamela Olson, a President’s Scholar at Stanford University 1998-2002 with a major in Physics, a minor in Political Science.
By Pamela Olson / http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34485.htm
Costs since Stauffer’s study in 2003
Refer to the Luechter Report where engineer Fred Leuchter proved that the facilities alleged to be gas chambers were proven to be technically insufficient for the task. Gas chambers are the linchpin of Jewish holocaust allegations that six million were systematically exterminated. If there were no gas chambers then six million Jews did not perish.
No doubt some Jews were deliberately killed but mostly at the end of the war when the German command structure completely broke down and concentration camp guards blamed Jews for the horrors befalling Germany and meted out their own brand of justice.
The official story if full of holes and anomalies which is a big reason Jews overreact when anyone attempts to question or scrutinize the claims. It’s also reason why Europeans are forbidden from asking questions lest they be thrown in prison.
A good starting point to understand the tragedy that befell the Palestinians through the creation of the unlawful zio squatter entity of israel, is to read the book written by Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe, titled:
‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’.
That is an important point of course, but there is much more…
The zio propagandists on the net use a set of tactics in order to justify the creation of the artificial zionist entity called Israel.
One thing these creeps do is they dishonestly make ample use of false analogies, i.e, the apple and orange type of comparison.
One such tactic is to say that the zionists won the land by conquest and expelled the indigenous people just like what white settlers did to the amerindians in Zamerica. Except this is BS on so many levels;
I’ll address, for now, only the most obvious one:
There is the obvious problem of anachronism; what the American settlers did back in the 18/19th century, though morally reprehensible, was not yet subjected to International Law, as was already the case with the post WWII creation of the zio entity.
By then, to take other people’s land by force of arms and ethnically cleanse them from it was no longer acceptable.
Put it another way; if today there were still a large territory inhabited by amerindians in North America and ZUSA tried to take it by force of arms and expell the natives, this would be viewed as a crime by international law and the political costs would probably make it impossible to carry out.
Things have changed, but the zio scum of the hasbara brigade, use such ruses to pretend that the same rules which applied in the 18th century, apply today. They do not.
(sigh) yes Karl – that’s what we all want. We do not like the fact that overly spicy oily curry is not the only menu option in the West. You got us – I will have to tell our elders we have been found out.
Peace.
Even my slight knowledge of the Bible and of Jewish history suggests that you are trolling with blatant and obvious inaccuracies just to annoy. The Torah is the original five books of Moses all in final form by 500 BC so where is there any refetence to the Roman destruction of the Second Temple and associated events?
And the nonsense about the Khazars is surely beyond its use by date. Clue to not believing it in the first instance – long before DNA evidence provided conclusive proof – how come Ashkenazim spoke a German dialect and not any language remotely related to that of the Khazars?
The Jewish Diaspora began long before the destruction of Jerusalem and well before the capture of Jerusalem by Vespasian and Titus as well.
Hey WoO,
I tried to ask him/them to be more coherent and less belligerent on multiple occasions (especially since vicious attacks lead to vicious and angry responses like #138). But it didn’t work. Often, I felt like I was cleaning up some messes he/they would make.
But, I’m beginning to learn from that. I’m going to start cutting back on responding to simply emotional comments – seems not worth the effort. If someone is not going to put in the honest effort to give me something to work with – ie. type up simply lazy responses, it’s not worth my time to respond. Otherwise you end up with this:
https://xkcd.com/386/
I also have to assume better of the people on this forum that they can spot an opinionated person with a big mouth, but little knowledge of the subject they are posting on.
Peace.
I do not understand why America should support Israel.
Israel is militarily stronger than any country in region.
Let it take care of itself without the US constantly anguishing over whether America is doing enough.
Why does Israel of all nations in the world deserve US support?
It’s not even a Christian state.
US support is due only to Jewish political strength in the US.
And frankly, let the Palestinians, who have support among the Arab and Muslim nations and their hundreds of millions of people, come to an agreement with Israel.
Leave the US out of it.
Americans are sick and tired of Israel being their #1 priority.
The so-called Roman Treaty with the Maccabees in BC 161 has been doubted as a forgery, but the Romans were heavily involved in conflicts with the Seleucids and it is not hard to accept that Maccabeus sent an embassy to the Roman Senate.
How formal the treaty may have been is a different question. Likely the Senate issued a senatusconsultum recognizing the Maccabeus and the rebels as socii et amici populi Romani. Certainly I Maccabbees 8 knows the proper formula.
Why do you say Fred Luechter “proved” anything when he has no relevant qualifications acceptable to a court hearing expert evidence and a reputation as an “execution technician” for attempting shakedowns?
Indeed why do you say gas chambers are the “lynchpin” etc when Auschwicz, which is the only site your phony expert Fred Luechter visited accounts for no more than one million deaths?
Thanks for the link 🙂
Interesting but I’m not sure how it relates to Eileen Kuch’s possibly provocative pretence of ignorance that I was having a shot at.
what about for Palestinians?
Peace
It was an independent country for a while, but now it’s part of China. Same as California in the US. People within China are all full-fledged citizens, and they migrate freely from province to province, and this is perfectly normal and has nothing to do with colonialism.
Now, of course some Tibetans – by which I mean those fully integrated in the Tibetan society – might (and probably do) want independence (just like some Californians, Scots, Catalonians, etc). So they will try to organize a secessionist movement, and of course the central government is likely to resist it. There will be a political, and perhaps even an armed struggle, and all that. But this is not colonialism, this is secessionism. So, at this point, you’re just trying to obfuscate…
Didn’t we experience the same schema with Obama? Right! First all these announcement what they will do and than later comes always the betrayal. Poor Palestinians they will suffer more.
Isn’t this the fundamental question? And aren’t fundamental questions supposed to be debated by the people’s representatives BEFORE a decision is taken to go in one direction or another? Can anyone tell me if this debate ever took place in the US Congress? Oh, sure the congress would pass separate pieces of legislation to authorize an attack on this country or that, but they never put the fundamental question of whether it is in America’s interest to spend $6 trillion to support the Zionist state. Rather than being truthful with the American people, they ridiculed Ron Paul for suggesting the attacks on 9/11 were motivated by US foreign policy and suggesting, instead, it was b/c “they hate us for our freedoms.”
If the political institutions are not willing to discuss these fundamental questions, what’s the point of having them?
P.S. There has been a lot of chatter lately that the power of The Lobby is waning. I don’t know how true that is, but I can tell you when we can be certain that The Lobby has truly lost its influence… and that’s when most online commenters no longer have to use anonymous handles. Can you even imagine that day arriving?
[YHWH-cult and Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that]
No we don’t.
Friedman’s statement has an obvious meaning: Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and should not be the capital of any other country. The fact that you would interpret this as him advocating expelling Muslims or denying them access to their holy sites is a clear and obvious example of paranoid projection. Whenever Muslims have the chance they deny Jews access to their holy sites, or actually destroy them.
As for stealing our temple. It’s a fact, you built a Mosque on the site of our Temple. You seem to think this kind of behaviour (like claiming Moses is a prophet of Islam and we falsified our scriptures to cover this up) is normal. It’s not normal. Obviously, you didn’t take the physical patch of land from us, but you took it from us by building a Mosque there and claiming it as a holy site for your religion.
To give you an analogy. Imagine that your worst nightmares came true and Mecca was conquered by Israel which, after a few pesky rebellions ruthlessly suppresses the Islamic religion and deports large swathes of the Muslim population. Then hundreds of years later Mecca was conquered by Japan, which built a Shinto shrine on top of the Kaaba and claimed that Muhammed was a prophet of Shintoism, whilst easing up restrictions of Muslims somewhat. Hundreds of years later Muslims reconquered Mecca, but the Japanese owners of the Kaaba used their international connections to maintain ownership of the Kaaba forbidding Muslims to pray there. Occasionally, in response to Muslims trying to visit the Kaaba, Shinto extremists will stab some old Mulsims lady walking down the street, cheered on by “moderate” Shinto media organisations like this one.
Now, that’s just nonsense, the usual ethnocentric self-pitying narrative. Before Zionist madmen came to the scene and ruined the place for everybody, all three religions and a multitude of ethnic self-identification groups co-existed just fine in Palestine in general and Jerusalem in particular. For hundreds of years.
Before the Zionist madmen came along, Palestine was sparsely populated and underdeveloped backwater whose population – Jewish and non Jewish – lived on the edge of starvation. The temple mount looked like an abandoned shack.
But you’re obviously correct, in the pre-Zionist era, Levantine Arabs certainly took a much more reasonable attitude to Jewish holy cites. The recent hardening has something to do with opposition to Zionism and something to do with a general rise in Islamic extremism (which may or may not be authentic Islam). The case remains that right now Palestinians restrict access to all Jewish holy sites that they control when they do not actually destroy them, whilst responding to completely imaginary attacks on their holy sites by going on a bus and stabbing people. Across the Arab world Jewish houses of worship have been treated with maximum possible sacrilege.
I will add that Morocco and Tunisia have, I understand, been much more scrupulous. Fair play to them.
If the political institutions are not willing to discuss these fundamental questions, what’s the point of having them?
We just had an election. The people who support Israel elected a President that will support Israel. Voting is the ultimate discussion.
Hey Gabriel,
I must admit, perhaps I interpreted his words more ominously than he intended – I definitely hope you are right and it doesn’t mean expulsion of Muslims from Jerusalem.
I cited the words of Jewish scholars and historians, they acknowledge that Muslims lifted the Byzantine ban on Jews residing in Jerusalem. The Jews supported the Muslim conquest as is evidenced by the earliest writings from non-Muslim sources, read the section called ‘Jewish Sources’ from Robert Hoyland’s excellent work, ‘Seeing Islam As Others Saw It A Survey And Evaluation Of Christian Jewish And Zoroastrian Writings On Early Islam’:
If you have evidence for your claim that Muslims have historically always banned- Jews from their holy sites, bring it. As I stated, the Palestinians (or any other Muslims) have no right to ban your folk from these sites at all in conflict with the practice of our earliest generation. We have been entrusted to share those sites not exclude others from them.
This is a set of arguments that assumes that Muslims just made stuff up as they went along. It is basically a crudely stated theological argument.
Divine revelation is not the monopoly of Bani Is-haac…deal with it.
The wisdom in God’s appointing the sacred precincts in the middle of a desert with only one well-source of water should be apparent to all. No one in their right mind wants to go there for any worldly reason – not even Muslims. Far away from other historic capitals like Damascus, Constantinople, Baghdad, etc. it avoided much of the conflict that comes from political turmoil (except in the earliest generation when it was a capital).
I’ve been there, it is hot, and maybe the hottest inhabited city in the world:
“But for inhabited locations it would appear that Mecca (or Makah), Saudi Arabia is the warmest inhabited location on earth.”
https://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/what-are-the-hottest-and-coldest-inhabited-places-in-the-world
“God created Arrakis to train the faithful.” – Dune
If anybody wants our sacred sites, you know where they are – in the words of the Spartans, “Come and take them.”
Peace.
Dang – good insight!
Peace.
Execution technician? So he’s just some minimally qualified “technician” who dabbles in neo-Nazi causes as a hobby? Maybe according to the ADL.
Here’s the facts:
Leuchter was consulted by several U.S. states to improve the efficiency of their execution devices, including hardware for execution by lethal injection, electrocution, gassing and hanging. He designed a new gas chamber for the state of Missouri, and he designed and constructed the first lethal injection machine for New Jersey. In 1990 he was profiled by both The Atlantic and Insight magazines as the nation’s foremost expert in the mechanics of execution.
Wrong. Leucter conducted a forensic examination at the following three sites:
1) Auschwitz
2) Auschwitz-Birkenhau
3) Majdanek
He also warned Ernst Zundel beforehand, the man who commissioned this study, that he would testify against him if his findings revealed that the facilities under investigation were in fact execution devices. He wouldn’t have even been allowed to testify in court if the court deemed him unqualified.
You forget that originally Auschwitz was credited with four million deaths which was revised downward to one million which means the six million figure drops to three million. However, that’s still highly inflated based on the evidence.
Hey Rurik,
If you know the history of that area (even the areas that are currently under Palestinian ‘control’), then you know it was a mish-mash of various religions and ethnicities; this included Jews, Christians (of various stripes) and Muslims. If the Palestinians plan to have a state that excludes others who have historically lived there (or worse kills them and usurps their land because they aren’t the right ethnic group), then I want no part of it. I am not going to support the oppressed just so they can come out on top and become oppressors. If they can come up with a more accommodating and less ethnocentric model, then I support that.
Gabriel mentioned that Jews are excluded from their holy sites in the Palestinian-controlled areas, if that is true, I feel no obligation to support that kind of behavior.
Peace.
Hey Jews – how much of that 3 trillion went into you Big Jew Rothschild’s piggy bank?
You Little Jews must be proud – first 9/11, then the Iraq War, and all that money too — such a deal!
p.s. Aren’t you’ll glad you came to America?
Well, don’t you think the “general rise” is mostly a consequence of Zionist atrocities as well? Mohammad Atta, the reputed leader of the 9/11 attackers, was motivated by the US support for Zionism, that’s a documented fact. Without a doubt, Israel is the ‘ground zero’ of the “general rise in Islamic extremism”…
We just had an election. The people who support Israel elected a President that will support Israel. Voting is the ultimate discussion.
Hey iffen,
We all know that the voters have been coerced by your Jew controlled MSM. They do not hear the truth of Israel’s evils.
The great American democracy has been stymied by you Jews – a great crime against humanity. Shame on the Jews- shame!
Art
I thought you said you were honest, iffen? Do you honestly believe the 50 million Americans on food stamps support paying $3.8 B in annual tribute to the Zionist project? Do you honestly believe the people of Detroit city, the largest municipal bankruptcy filing in U.S. history, support the US gov’ts decision to launch the GWOT, a war that has shed the blood of millions and the treasury of trillions, to remake MENA so that the security of the citizens of the Zionist project is enhanced?
Tell me something, iffen, if the American people truly supported all these things, why the need for a lobby? Isn’t it redundant? Wouldn’t the executive and legislative branches of gov’t simply pass laws and execute policies that supported the Zionist project b/c they knew the American people supported these things, as you assert?
No, iffen, here is the best indication of how democratic The Lobby is about having meaningful discussions about their objectives:
How do you honestly explain that quote, iffen? No, The Lobby (aka a night flower, b/c it thrives in the dark) wanted to keep their machinations on the down low because they feared a potential backlash. This is their biggest fear… if the American people ever connect the dots and figure out they’ve been played for dumb goy, the chickens will one day come home to roost. If you were truly honest, you would admit that.
I think the point Giraldi and other realists and non-interventionists are making is that, regardless of which side is “right” in this dispute, it’s not a dispute that need concern Americans. It’s possible that some Islamist fanatics will continue to target Americans if we ended all aid to Israel and just traded with them like any other nation, but I find it implausible that more would attack us then than now.
Hey Talha,
I agree with you when it comes to aggressive ethno-nationalism, but then I’m sympathetic to ethno-nationalism when it’s defensive. As with the Palestinians, I view them more or less as I view the struggles of the North American Amerindian.
Would you condemn those tribes whose people became so exasperated with the white man’s lies and genocidal treachery that they eventually decided- on the verge of complete annihilation, ‘OK, no more ***** white people are allowed on our land!’
Consider the Jews of Palestine. How many of them defended the rights of their Palestinian neighbors as they were being slaughtered and genocided during the Nakba and/or since? I honestly don’t know, but if I were a Palestinian, I would advocate that those Jews retain all of their rights, whereas any Jews who were complicit with their silence or worse, must go, having relinquished their right to stay.
Is that too strident to your mind?
Another place where ethno-nationalism becomes tricky is in places like Zimbabwe, where the government is overtly ethno-nationalistic and are busy wiping out the hated minority. Whose side do you come down on? The whites who created the notable material successes of the country, or the blacks who thronged in from the region once the nation was thriving, and demanded to usurp the government to steal all the property of the racial minority whose ancestors created the country (albeit on the African continent)?
I don’t think the whites of Zimbabwe were attacking their neighbors and stealing their land. Rather they had simply been born in a country that their ancestors carved out of the jungle, and though hard work had created a great and prosperous nation, only to have it taken from them by black ethno-nationalists. Are you sympathetic to the plight of the whites, who’ve been ethnically cleansed, or the ethno-nationalistic blacks who’ve stolen the white-built farms and houses and property and destroyed the country?
These are some of the nuanced questions that are being hashed out in the world today regarding ethno-nationalism. It seems that some people’s (aggressive) ethno-nationalism is ‘good’.. (the blacks of Zimbabwe or the Albanian Muslims of Kosovo or the Jews of Palestine/Israel), and some people’s (defensive) ethno-nationalism is bad.. (the whites of Sweden or Europe and the Arabs of Palestine)
what about the Kurds? I have to tell you that I’m very sympathetic to their plight and struggle.
For me, Talha, all peoples are entitled to self-determination. Kurds, Jews, Palestinians, whites, blacks and so on. And when that is denied to them, then my sympathies lie with those ethno-nationalists whose struggle is defensive against those who would persecute them and genocide them and steal their lands.
Peace
Why do you continuously question my honesty and my patriotism?
I question your understanding of politics and history, but as far as I can remember, I haven’t questioned your honesty or your patriotism.
Lord knows you give me ample opportunity to do so. For example, you seem to be dedicated to the Israel/Jewish question, yet you have no opinion on the Holocaust. Now that is strange.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ban-ki-moon-united-nations-disproportionate-israel-focus-resolutions-palestinians-human-rights-danny-a7481961.html
Ban Ki- moon of UN thinks his body is biased against Israel.
It s time for Ban to think woud he be saying same thing against Iraq if hundred of resolutions were passed against Iraq for starting war against Kuwait in 1990 followed by more resolutions against Iraq for keeping the Kuwaitis occupied ,robbed,restricted,and killed at check
Lines and borders at will
No Mr Ban can’t say that because something always happened after every biased act against Iraq. He can add Iran even to this frame of refernce and then utter some truth publicly like why Iranian children are dying from lack of medicine and air passengers are dying from air travel .
No Mr Ban ,here the word bias has no relevance , no discriminatory power. All those discriminations seem to have resulted in America pouring more money and free military instrument on Israel. The bias expressed in UN has resulted more death in Gaza,WB and Lebanon and Syria .
Gabriel, another sad zionisy LIAR, says: ‘Before the Zionist madmen came along, Palestine was sparsely populated’
Pure BS. Another zio lie that has been long refuted.
iffen to geokat62
‘Why do you continuously question my honesty and my patriotism?’
Possibly bc you are a transparently dishonest creep & an obvious zionist troll?
Uncle talha: ‘If you know the history of that area (even the areas that are currently under Palestinian ‘control’), then you know it was a mish-mash of various religions and ethnicities; this included Jews, Christians (of various stripes) and Muslims. If the Palestinians plan to have a state that excludes others who have historically lived there’
See, it is precisely for ingratiating & intellectually dishonest posts like the above that you deserve to be called uncle Talha.
No, U.T, you do NOT know the history of ‘that area’ and why would you even mention an obvious zionist liar such as this gabriel guy?
The Palestinians are the core population of ‘that area’, an ancient levantine people going back thousands of years. Modern genetics confirms it.
Before the recent zio colonization and ethnic cleansing project, 96% of the people were Palestinians, of whom approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/
Too many cheap zio LIES are still pushed about Palestine and Palestinians and about the creation of Israel.
This needs to be fought with the actual facts.
Notice there were very few Jews.
This, of course, generated conflict.
Full article at
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/
AT the top of the page one can find 4 maps showing the loss of Palestinian land to Zionism, from 1947 to the present…
What would you people do if you had been subjected to this kind of ‘treatment’ for over 60 years?
Is accusing me of being an 88 related to my understanding of politics and history?
I thought I provided my opinion in comment #229.
Alan Hart, a former BBC reporter and author of several books on the israel/Palestine conflict, had this to say on the creation of Israel( greater details can be found in his books):
For example, you seem to be dedicated to the Israel/Jewish question, yet you have no opinion on the Holocaust.
So iffen,
Why do you not use the “Six Million Lie” anymore? Is it because it is so refutable?
Those in your face guilt games are falling flat Little Jew – they just build more resentment for your tribe.
None of use feel any guilt for what happened in WWII. You Jews must learn to forgive – it is the best policy to stop what happened in that war. Forgiving acknowledges what happened, but stops the cycle of destruction.
Those who cannot learn from history are bound to repeat it. “You reap what you sow” Jesus.
Peace and Love — Art
Also, the notion that the Jewish diaspora was the result of Roman ethnic cleansing of Jews in Judea at the aftermath of the 66–73 CE war, is PURE FICTION.
NEVER happened.
This is well known by serious historians of the period, including Israeli historians.
Even before the era of Alexander, there were Jewish communities troughout the Mediterranean basin.
More than a century before the 66 war, there was already a thriving Jewish community in Rome itself.
Israeli historian Shlomo Sand, in the chapter titled ‘the invention of the exile'(from his book ‘the invention of the jewish people), discusses the presence of many Jews in Rome and Italy by 59 BCE, and how the famous Roman orator Cicero, complained aabout their numbers and power in Rome. p.145.
Enough with this nonsense.
Yes, it would be.
I already said that perhaps I was too hasty in forming my opinion of you in that regard.
In any case, that’s not accusing you of dishonesty.
That’s an accusation of being mis-informed or of muddled thinking.
Dear Nephew,
I already know about this – I have little disagreement with anything on that site by the wonderful and indomitable Alison Weir (may God grant her many long years). In fact, the map you linked to is almost identical to the map we used to publish in our pamphlets on campus.
Is there any doubt that Zionism is mostly a secular ethno-nationalist European enterprise and supported by European colonial empires – and even founded with the aid of (gasp) terrorist methods? Even the Jews from other lands; Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, etc. are not native to that land; this is a given. Nor did they feel a need to ever migrate to that land wholescale – the entire thing is artificial like so much else of modern man. And when treated reasonably well, the Jews stay and don’t plan on cutting the ties of places they’ve inhabited for centuries:
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/02/19/387265766/irans-jews-its-our-home-and-we-plan-to-stay
http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/return-to-morocco.html#/22
Is there a ‘Persian Jew’ if he is not in Persia? A ‘Moroccan Jew’ if he is not in Morocco? An ‘Ethipoian Jew’ if he is not in Ethiopia?
“And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?”
I think this is something that other Muslim countries can work on; making their atmosphere conducive to those Jews coming back who want no part in that ‘project’.
However, some Jews, a minority for sure, are native to that land (and have been for centuries) and should not have their rights denied any more than Palestinians should. Furthermore, Jews from all over the world should be allowed to visit and worship at their holy sites.
Why this is considered boot-licking to Zionists, I have no clue.
Peace.
No I do not think that it is remotely plausible that when Boko Haram kidnaps a bus full of children or Pakistanis rampage around Bombay slaughtering people it is “mostly a consequence of Zionists atrocities”.
Another reason I do not think it is plausible is because the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 and Saudi Arabia was unified under Wahhabi rule in 1932 and I have a basic grasp of time.
That sentence was misphrased. As I explained in another comment, I meant that right now Muslims denying Jews access to holy sites and destroying houses of worship is a widespread fact, whereas Jews denying Muslims access to holy sites and destroying houses of worship is a paranoid projection.
I always find it interesting how moderate Muslims are willing to uncritically believe the most outlandish claims about Israel. My wife’s best friend at school was the children of Egyptian immigrants. My wife once asked whether she was interested in visiting Israel. She said that she was scared of getting attacked, something which is entirely ludicrous as anyone who simply walks any around any Israeli shopping centre where designer handbags or big sunglasses are sold can attest.
LOL. You don’t even want to live in a Muslim country.
Why not answer the question that was put to you in #267?
Uh no – I don’t mind living in a Muslim country and proposed several potential locations to my wife. She is a White convert however – this is her native land – from Swedish stock. She has thought it over and, depending on how things play out, we may move. I know you think the entire Muslim world is an out-house, but you’ve made it plain from your comments that you don’t have much knowledge about the historic Muslim world and its intersection with Jews to begin with.
I would start here “Neo-lachrymose Conception of Jewish-Arab History”:
http://www.academia.edu/6560487/Neo-lachrymose_Conception_of_Jewish-Arab_History
Which is an excellent article by Mark Cohen who wrote this excellent and balanced book:
“Did Muslims and Jews in the Middle Ages cohabit in a peaceful “interfaith utopia”? Or were Jews under Muslim rule persecuted, much as they were in Christian lands? Rejecting both polemically charged ideas as myths, Mark Cohen offers a systematic comparison of Jewish life in medieval Islam and Christendom–and the first in-depth explanation of why medieval Islamic-Jewish relations, though not utopic, were less confrontational and violent than those between Christians and Jews in the West.”
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html
So, if you are from European Jewry stock – sorry, you don’t get to rewrite history to fit your paradigm.
Some Jews don’t need to move to Israel to validate their identity:
“I am a Jew living in a Muslim country, and I am happy,” she said in an email. “I have my friends, family and my life here.” Her Muslim friends, she noted, had asked her if they could attend upcoming Jewish weddings “so that we can come and support you.”
Asked whether Jews were considering leaving Turkey, she said, “Migration from one country to another is in our history. However, we have been here for more than 500 years. I have my roots here, so it not easy to just pack up and go, and neither do I want to.”
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.714614
Peace.
You don’t even want to live in a Muslim country.
He’s working on correcting that. 🙂
Dear Mr Giraldi,
If the ongoing settlement enterprise does foreclose on the possibility of a viable state of Palestine for the Palestinian people……
What comes next ?
Does anyone really believe that the impulse toward continual land grabs buoyed by the determined settler mentality that dominates the Knesset today(as well as most of D.C.) will, upon completion of its task, suddenly “throw open the doors” to a bi-national state with equal rights for all ?
Please……one must be dreaming….
If anything, the current trends underway betray the exact opposite coming to pass…..a second “Nakba”….perhaps five times greater than the first……..will function as the settlers exclamation point on their drive to consolidate the Greater Israel Project .
They will eliminate the potential of an impending Apartheid by literally expelling and /or slaughtering , for all time, the bulk of Palestinians left in Judea and Samaria.
How can it be an “Apartheid State” if their are no Palestinians left ,anywhere, to suffer under it ?
Will the Israeli Military re-enter Gaza for the final liquidation, seize key coastal territory for gleaming new high rises , magnificent casinos and full access to Gaza’s water rights and off shore gas wells ?
Perhaps leaving a thimbleful of land north of the Rafah crossing, crammed full of Palestinians (like sardines) earmarked for merger with Egypt ?
Is that the plan ?
Lets assume for a moment , it is the plan…..and Israel is wholly successful in undertaking this “final solution” to the Palestinian question….
Then what happens ?
What comes next ?
Will Israel become an Ink spot of international shame ?
Will the entire world, absent the US congress, (of course) shut their doors to Israel ?….Just close the book on all interactions, all trade, all diplomacy ? Will all good will towards Israel vanish forever into thin air ?
What happens to Israel once the final and forced dissolution of Palestine is complete ?
Does anyone really know ?
That is understandable but ethno-nationalism is also a force of nature and can never be eradicated from the human soul. It can be a force for good or ill just like religion.
And let’s not forgot that most religions, including yours, are squatting on a mountain of skulls.
Hey Gabriel,
I may not agree with ‘widespread’, but yes certain Muslims are definitely doing this and certain extremists are also doing this to Christian sites across the Muslim world. Don’t use hyperbolic phrases like ‘Whenever Muslims have the chance…’ please. As I have said, they have no right to do this. And that example you showed of the prophet Joseph (pbuh) – any Muslim who desecrates his blessed resting place is opening themselves to the ire of God. They had best desist – stat!
I am for believing in what is factual – I have great relations with my Jewish co-worker and my Jewish neighbors (who are plentiful since I live on the same block as a synagogue). Likewise, I find it interesting that many Jews can believe outlandish claims about Islam and Muslims.
Here are some pretty happy Jews in Morocco, they love the king:
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/09/197277/moroccan-jews-dancing-while-carrying-photo-of-king-mohammed-vi/
Peace.
I do not have the facts to argue that out – but I do know about Gaza – your million person prison.
The evil you do there, so far out shadows anything the Palestinians are doing to Israel.
You Jews can never ever complain about the Palestinians with a straight face.
Perhaps you can explain how you Jews can in mass be so dishonest.
Peace — Art
Hey KenH,
So is sexual energy. No – it cannot and neither can it be let loose with abandon.
Yes (including those without religion) – the Day of Judgment is going to be a very, very grim event – lot’s of people have lots to answer for and there is no obfuscating the evidence. Keep your own record as clean as possible.
“That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.” 36:65
Peace.
[Gabriel mentioned that Jews are excluded from their holy sites in the Palestinian-controlled areas, if that is true, ]
Hey Talha,
Yes, this part is true enough. As a Jew you can go up to the Mount, only as any other tourist might, under the strict eye of Israeli guards and Pal strongmen making sure that Jews don’t engage in prayer. I don’t understand the restriction; it has been the flashpoint of a great deal of violence (e.g., Sharon’s trip there started an intifada, which Arik likely anticipated; but there it is: Jews not allowed to pray on the Mount)
Bwaaahahahaha! We will out-breed you all!
Peace.
Jews not allowed to pray on the Mount
Maybe they could go and pray in Mecca instead.
My good friend Rurik,
Aggressive ethno-nationalism is exactly what I am talking about. If you read my posts, it should be clear that I actually have no problem with a society being set up in a way as to have an alpha group (an ‘old guard’) whether that is religious or ethnic based as long as they are benevolent and do not oppress the minority groups. Whether that government is a monarchy, parliamentary system, tribal confederation, etc. doesn’t matter much to me.
I can understand that for sure, but how do determine guilt for sure on these terms?
You’ve brought up some excellent examples which I’m not sure there are perfect answers to. There will have to be a degree of reconciliation and forgiveness in each instance. For instance in Zimbabwe, I don’t think the government should simply rip out the land from Whites, but isn’t this also built on a colonial British legacy that made sure the British settlers received a disproportionate amount of usable land – I am not an expert on this, so I’m not certain – but it seems reminiscent of the Brits in India or European colonial enterprises elsewhere – except all those packed up and left. Though, again, I’m not an expert on the conflict there. I certainly don’t think descendants of Whites should simply be evicted but a more equitable solution reached. Incidentally, even if (hypothetically) all of Palestine is completely taken over by Arabs I don’t think Jews that have immigrated should simply be evicted. The Muslim world absorbed Jewish immigrants before, we can do it again – it’s just an issue of numbers and details.
I am glad that we live now in a time of international law (however imperfectly it is applied) and that it is not the law of ‘might makes right’. I don’t think any ethnicity should be aggressively trying to dominate or expel anyone else at this point now – the inheritance of the older times where this was the norm (Huns, Mongols, Arabs, Greeks, Brits, etc.), we will just have to figure out because we can’t press the undo button. For instance, you mention Kurdistan, well Kurds have been occupied or had alliances and hosted garrisons of either Iran or the Turks or the Arabs for centuries before there was even a British Empire. Then what do you do with Persians or Arabs (facts on the ground) that obviously live within the land that they claim as a nation. Very difficult stuff to figure out.
Peace.
Kids and converts, kids and converts. 🙂
I am glad that we live now in a time of international law (however imperfectly it is applied) and that it is not the law of ‘might makes right’.
Get a grip, Talha.
“Before the Zionist madmen came along, Palestine was sparsely populated and underdeveloped backwater whose population – Jewish and non Jewish – lived on the edge of starvation.”
OOPS! Gabriel heads it into his own goal…. completely discrediting everything he has to say about anything…. Zio-Troll down, out, and barred from relevance…
This link is for the photos of Jaffa, but the article may also be interesting-
http://www.anarkismo.net/article/12296
Jaffa was the largest city in historic Palestine during the years of the British mandate, with a population of more than 80,000 Palestinians in addition to the 40,000 persons living in the towns and villages in its immediate vicinity.
Hey iffen,
Let the Hanafis (like the Ottomans) take over again and that becomes a possibility:
“Abu Hanifa’s opinion was that non-Muslims can enter Mecca and even the Sacred Mosque [haram], as long as they do not do so for the sake of the pilgrimage [hajj or umra], which they are not allowed to perform.”
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2010/10/20/are-non-muslims-allowed-to-enter-mecca-and-the-sacred-mosque-haram/
Combined with the fact that Rambam said praying in a mosque is kosher, you have a reasonable combo for a hypothetical situation:
“Regarding entering a mosque, the Rambam explains in one of his responses that Ishmaelites are not considered idol-worshippers since they believe in Hashem, blessed is He, and there is no denial of Hashem in their religion or anything else that should cause them to be considered idol-worshippers…Nevertheless, there is no halachic prohibition to enter an Arabic Muslim mosque; this is especially true when this is being done in order to pray there, such as at the graves of our forefathers in the Machpela Cave in Chevron.”
http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367
Peace.
Hey Sam,
Like I mentioned, I do not support this and I believe this policy is condemned by our own tradition. It is a sad side-effect of how Zionism and the resultant Arab nationalist backlash have completely skewed centuries of historical precedent.
Peace.
I find it very interesting that so many intelligent people can believe in an Abrahamic god (other gods are even further from my comprehension) who so clearly doesn’t think it good policy to make sure everyone is well informed about Him and his views. (To keep it short let me just suggest that, if there is an omniscient, omnipotent Creator the only explanation that makes sense is that he was lonely and bored so set going an evolutionary process that he could watch as entertainment. “Made in his image” we would have to guess that He has done it countless trillions of times: hence multiverses).
Clearly the evolved God gene has had some selective success but I would be interested to know what you think the outcome would be if somehow the 90 per cent of dangerous people in the world – young men – could be turned into agnostics or atheists.
Without seeking to dispute what you say I still wonder why you accept his supposed proofs when he was rejected as an expert witness and several people have published debunking criticisms of his work.
Sad is right. Gabriel the Zionazi LIAR and TROLL is also STUPID – making lies that are easily exposed. Here’e his ‘sparsely polulated, starving’ Palestine before the Zionist onslaught –
http://blog.palestine-studies.org/2015/05/15/nakba-day-2015/
NAKBA DAY BEFORE-AND-AFTER:
Jaffa, Jerusalem and Haifa
Perhaps I have misunderstood you. Your argument that China’s military occupation of Tibet in 1951 was sufficient to make Tibet part of China presumably means you accept that Israel’s occupation of pre 1967 Israel with its Arab citizens was just as conclusive in establishing Israel on those pre 1967 borders. If not why not?
When do disputes of that kind remain unresolved? What, for example, is your consistent take on Georgia/Ossetia, Ukraine/Crimea, Indonesia/West Irian? Or are there special rules for China because it is big and powerful as it most recently seems to be trying to prove in the South China Sea?
GABRIEL M is a LYING ZIONAZI TROLL
Zionist atrocities began before the Nakba.
The ’empty, undeveloped land’ is part of the myth Zios created to perpetuate their fraud.
– The City of Jaffa: an example of Ethnic Cleansing –
http://www.itisapartheid.org/getinformed_sub3_subsub2_text.html
Imagine the Terror and Horror Jaffa Palestinians Must Have Felt
When They Were PUSHED INTO THE SEA, May 1948
Yes, I saw your comments on this matter after I responded to your earlier one.
Israelis – the overwhelming majority today – will not choose a state where Muslims are a majority. Hamas and Palestinians, in general, will not accept a state with Jews.
I won’t get into propaganda issues – there is plenty to go around both from the Israeli side and even more from Pallywood, believe it or not – mainly to cut to the chase and talk about practical matters.
So in my mind, if we were to have a 1SS, I think Jewish citizens ought to embrace the reality; which is, Palestinians currently living in the WB if given citizenship, will result in a direct Muslim-majority democracy; or at least pretty close. I am perfectly ok with it.
After that, if demographics are a major concern it is better for Jews to bring Arab citizens up to par economically. Otherwise, the population-surge weapon will unleash without a doubt, industrial standards being inversely related to population growth. I don’t think Israelis today will accept this risk.
It is possible to explore the notion of fair compensation for say about 1m or more Palestinians to relocate themselves to other Arab nations: Jordan., Egypt, Morocco, Lebanon, Tunisia, Algeria are possibilities. However, I don’t think most of these countries want Palestinians, reputations preceding, etc…
So a 2SS is the only clean way.
However, I don’t think most of these countries want Palestinians, reputations preceding, etc…
Oh yes – that is for sure – those bad ass Palestinians — everyone knows what total war animals they are. They have been feared for thousands of years.
p.s. It’s true and a sad part of human nature – that there always has to be an unfair belittling of those you abuse.
Here’s an excerpt from The formal end of the two-state solution:
Hey WoO,
This is getting theological, but I’ll go ahead and answer since you asked specific questions – though I’m not going to debate the points.
Everyone is graded on a curve as Imam Ghazali (ra) explained; if you never heard the message, or never heard the correct message, you won’t be judged by that. If you heard the message correctly and you rejected it – well, I’m not God, so one can plead their case to Him when they see Him.
Boredom is inconceivable for a Being Who created time and space and transcends them both. There is no timeline for God. His Begin-lessness is the same as His End-lessness – He does not age, gain more knowledge or become more perfect. He is observing your birth, your death and you being ushered into Heaven or Hell all in the very now of the ‘eternal moment’ (there is no term for it that makes sense in our framework). A statement of the early Muslims was, “He was, before there was a ‘when’ and a ‘where’ – and He is now as He ever was.” Lonely…He created the universe not for His benefit, as He is exalted above need of anything. The Divine Being was already self-aware of the Divine attributes; He originated creation, that His Omnipotence and Attributes be manifested to creation out of His generosity to share them with us, not out of need. We would not have had a chance to know Him (which is the point of worship) had He not brought us into existence.
At the end of the day, our intellectualizing about the existence of God does not change the reality of whether He exists or not – He does not need us to affirm Him:
“Allah bears witness that there is no god but He.” 3:18
And if He does exist, what is one going to do about it? It’s all Pascal’s wager – pick the most coherent narrative and roll with it.
“It is reward enough for worship that He has accepted you as worthy of it.” – Ibn Ata Illah (ra)
People usually pick a religion because it brings benefit to them – rarely do you see a person who just had to submit to a theological argument equivalent to a jujitsu arm-bar. Which is why I don’t argue theology* as I have been taught not to do so by my teachers.
This possibility was explored by no less than a theological authority than Imam Fakhruddin Razi (ra). If you are interested in a quick summary of his points based on the first verse of the opening chapter of the Qur’an; “Praise be Allah, Lord of the worlds“:
A Concise History of Afghanistan in 25 Volumes: Volume 1
Bigger question is; is that relevant to us? The answer, from our theological perspective is – no. The big question is, will you be successful on the Day of Judgement which is the goal of those in this universe.
I am not convinced that removing a transcendent moral or ethical framework will make them any less dangerous – just my take on it.
Peace.
*Note: Seriously folks, I’m not commenting in order to debate these points – I was asked, so I answered – I will simply ignore any attempts in trying to argue. If you have further questions – I can try to find you answers, contact me at my Google account above.
Hey Sam,
Sounds like Lebanon honestly.
Full removal of all settlers in the WB?
Peace.
Thanks for the links RobinG, good stuff!
Peace.
While I would not let a Chinaman criticize the west without throwing their sins back into their faces (e.g., the Dzungar genocide, Tibet, Uighurs, etc.), I also would not let a Zionist pretend my 1-12 above weren’t a thing.
If appearances, the war of words, rhetorical points, etc., didn’t matter, then Bibi & co probably shouldn’t be squealing as if they do.
Far more true of European settlers, America, and Amerinds than of Jews, Palestine, and Palestinians, but try telling diaspora Jewish professors that. I doubt 1 in 100 would find the argument persuasive, at least not in the way you mean it to be persuasive in legitimizing Zionist colonization.
Why aren’t you out there trying to convert your tribe?
I was just reading yesterday, about some Amerind tribe that exterminated some other Amerind tribe, in the 17th century, IIRC. Thanks for reminding me to get back to reading that!
Then there was that tribe that made war on Jamestown, but were crushed by the settlers and their Amerind allies.
Sorry I don’t have the names of the tribes handy. There were so many…
P.S., the whole thing where you implied that Amerinds were all peace-loving hippies, many of whom didn’t murder European explorers and settlers on sight, that was pretty cute. Lemme guess; whites taught them scalping, right?
Why would it be strange for him to ignore the issue, thus avoiding any opportunity for you to change the subject and score cheap rhetorical points? I mean, it’s not like you’re actually using his ignoring the issue as an opportunity to try to change the subject and score cheap rhetorical points…
It is possible to explore the notion of fair compensation for say about 1m or more Palestinians to relocate themselves to other Arab nations
It sure is too bad that the Jews don’t have any money to something like that!
My mistake, my 1-12 are in another thread:
https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/barack-backhands-bibi/
Full removal of all settlers in the WB?
More like Israel and Judea.
More’s the pity.
The fire bombings of 170 German cities and dozens of Japanese cities, deliberately targeting civilians and incinerating somewhere around 600,000 German civilians and god only knows how many Japanese civilians, were war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Because the Allies have never been called to account for their crimes, they continue to act with impunity, committing more of the same crimes, like a serial killer on a spree, who thinks he’s invincible.
The ethnic transfer of millions of Germans, and the maltreatment, starvation, and psychological warfare carried out against Germans for over five years after the German surrender is something else the American people should “feel guilt” for, but most are not aware of what was done in their name.
Not only do USAians “feel no guilt” for the commission of these war crimes, they revel in them — to the extent they even know what was done in their name.
The holocaust doxology: that there was a plan to kill every single _XXX___ by industrial means, that resulted in the deaths of 6 million _XXX___ is a projection:
there was a plan to kill as many Germans as possible, civilian and military alike;
by industrial means — including firebombing, which was researched and rehearsed to achieve the most efficient means of producing a firestorm;
that resulted in the deaths of an estimated 7 million Germans, most of them after Germany surrendered.
Unlike the alleged holocaust of Jews, the holocaust of the German people is well documented.
The Jew York Times still uses Germany as its all-purpose whipping boy, keeping the guilt fresh and raw: this item posted this morning:
“Germany Grapples with its African Genocide”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/world/africa/germany-genocide-namibia-holocaust.html?emc=edit_th_20161229&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=60527570&_r=0
Germar Rudolf was also skeptical of Leuchter’s work: he respected the motivation but as a PhD candidate in chemistry at Max Planck Institute, was concerned about Leuchter’s methods.
So Rudolf created the appropriate protocols and tested Auschwitz for Xyklon B, submitted samples to an independent, reputable lab. The lab’s analysis pretty much confirmed Leuchter’s conclusions.
The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of ‘Gas Chambers’ at Auschwitz.
Why do you reject Leuchter’s conclusions out of hand? If you’re Jewish it’s understandable that you don’t have an open mind on the subject. But then, there are Jews like David Cole who also dispute the six million claim.
It’s been a long time since I read critiques of Leuchters work, but most of it amounted to nit picking and personal attacks to cast aspersions on Leucther rather than glaring errors in his methods.
Leucther was viciously attacked by world Jewry after he published his findings and they destroyed his professional life and ruined his marriage. All for questioning their cherished claim which they use to perpetually guilt trip and extort Germany and the West and hide behind to shield themselves from any and all criticism.
Anyone who doesn’t believe in their claims and embellishments is symbolically burned at the stake.
Listen you little fucking moron, you have no idea what you say most of the time, your knowledge derived from reading the echo-chambers you inhabit. Ever set foot in the Middle East? Fuck off.
Do you think any of your rambles or those of any of the other morons insulting Jews here matter even a bit? You are really stupid. Do you think Trump cares a whit what you say?
Wait and see.
Listen you pathetic little whining piece of shit. You are commenting on a forum run by a Jew. Of the People you hate, regardless of how much benefit any one of them bestows on you, judging by every little odious crap you deposit here.
So fucking piece of shit, why don’t you build and maintain your own “Christian” site where you can spew?
Shameless ape!
Yeah… and after that report the powers that be hunted Rudolf down and put him in prison… in the “freest” Germany of all time!
Oh those pesky thought crimes… the holohoax does not have a leg to stand on.
Removal of 300k settlers is not something we would do. This is not Gaza. I think we’d have to enter into land swaps and monetary help for Pals to settle in Jordan or Egypt. The truth is most Pals would prefer to live in Israel, avail of the nation’s public services, especially the educational institutions and healthcare. It would be a tremendous burden on the state.
We’ll have to dig deep.
On another matter, I think people on this forum especially ones I though I respected ought to refrain from using appalling slurs GabrielM or other Jewish commentators [yes you RobinG, and I never saw that snark you were going to write to Diogenes. I am sure you got busy]. I don’t mind vagrants like L.K or Art engage with dirt. I am happy to return in kind.
Thank you for your reply – with your usual exemplary courtesy.
My “because He was lonely and bored” as an explamation for the Creation is of course my verbal conceit designed to tease – as I have enjoyed doing to a Cardinal whom I have come to lnow quite well – and point out that it solves (actually dissolves) “the problem of evil”, at the expense of the Creator deity caring what we do or what becomes of us.
As I can’t conceive of a self or of others that I care about as having any existence without their bodies, including eapecially their brains I can’t help noting the importance of “Saint” Thomas More’s argument in “Utopia” about the logical importance of punishing atheism and the denial of the existence of an afterlife wherein God’s judgment could be experienced. His point was that belief in afterlife and judgment was necessary to stop the clever and strong taking all the good things of life for themselves (think of the successful families who would have had a whispered family secret that there was no heaven or hell). My related question about what happens if you deprive jihadists and their equivalents (presumably reincarnation was enough for the Tamil Tigers) of belief in an afterlife is the other side of the coin. Actually I think useful employment for young men and there not being too many of them should be the main aim. Germany’s 2 million births in 1913 and Russia’s 5 million meant that Hitler and Stalin had all the young lives to mislead and squander in the 1930s that malice required and the quasi religious ties (and threats) that kept them fighting fanatically probably had more to do with tribal solidarity than eschatological beliefs. Likewise with the Japanese who wouldn’t surrender. Still it does seem that inadequate young men are made particularly dangerous by teaching them the rewards of martydom and it would surely be useful to introduce them to the view that without their bodies they cease to exist.
Sam Shameless to Art: “Ever set foot in the Middle East? Fuck off.”
Irrelevant.
No need to go to the moon to know it is not made of Swiss Cheese.
What about Gilad Atzmon? No? I could go on and on….
Bottom line is that you will not accept anybody who is not a scumbag zionist liar such as yourself.
It makes me chuckle to see how Art gets under your putrid zio skin… truth hurts, doesn’t it?
You better pray that the Americans never find out how shitty Israel and its zio operatives in Zusa did 9-11… ’cause if they ever find out the honeymoon will be over.
You Holocaust denier, we do know where all of you inhabit. It’s a dark, repulsive habitat for reptilians. The precise number murdered is really not of your interest, rather the complete whitewashing of the event.
Talking of legs to stand on, the day will come when we will decide, and you won’t have your scales, let alone the legs which G’d took away from you eons back, in the beginning of time.
Who gives a flying fuck as to what you want or how u feel, boy?
This ain’t your little zio playground.
Can’t take it, piss off.
But S2, I don’t see what the difference is. The one time I googled Leuchter’s work, the point was made (by Leuchter iirc) that gas wasn’t even necessary. Crammed into those ‘wash rooms’ they would have soon suffocated from lack of oxygen.
(BTW, I’ve been wondering where you were.)
Gilad Atzmon, yes indeed; a worse example of a mad scoundrel now rejected by his own bumbling ilk one would be hard pressed to find.
You needn’t go on and on, unless you insist on your prior generation females; a common reptilian act [and pun fully intended].
Squashed underfoot, that is your destiny.
You got an issue with me, Sam? Then I suggest it’s best you take it up directly with me instead of trying to guilt-trip RobinG.
Hey WoO,
There is definitely utility to the belief; I posted this in another thread:
“The reference here, as other commentators made clear, was to Islam’s belief, which it shared with Christianity, in a “future state of rewards and punishments,” a system of celestial carrots and sticks which the Founding generation considered necessary to guarantee good social conduct…Benjamin Rush, the Pennsylvania signer of the Declaration of Independence and friend of Adams and Jefferson, applauded this feature of Islam, asserting that he had ‘rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammed inculcated upon our youth than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles.’”
https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html
Quite dangerous – which is a great thing when you are trying to protect your people, land and religion. Or if you are about to face down a Sassanid army 3 times your size or looking at throngs of Mongols screaming down the hills at your position. In that case you want to tell them hadith like this:
“O people, do not wish to meet the enemy but rather ask God for security. But. if you meet your enemy in battle, then be patient and know that Paradise is under the shade of swords.” – reported in Bukhari
And verses like this:
“Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by God. Rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind; that on them is no fear, nor have they cause to grieve.” 3:169-170
War is a way of life and is not going away. The problem is in why and what they are fighting for and how they conduct themselves.
Not a good strategy for creating fighting men in my book; they might not be willing to part with their life as easily and this may tend toward cowardice.
For me, at least from our narrative, the way is that you tell them that they don’t get to define martyrdom in anyway they want – they have to seek guidance from the ulema. Just like a man can’t break into another’s house and then shoot the owner when he comes out with a bat and claim self defense. If they don’t honor the rules of war laid down by the sacred law, then they can’t expect Heaven, but should prepare for Hell. There is precedence for this in our hadith literature regarding a man fighting with simply the wrong intention:
“The first to be judged on the Day of Judgement will be a man who died as a martyr. He shall be brought forth. God will make him recount His blessings (i.e. the blessings which He had bestowed upon him) and he will recount them (and admit having enjoyed them in his life). God will ask: ‘What did you do (to requite these blessings)?’ He will say: ‘I fought for you until I died a martyr.’ God will say: ‘You have told a lie. You fought that you might be called ‘a brave warrior’. And you were called so.’ (Then) orders will be passed against him and he will be dragged with his face downward and cast into Hell.” – reported in Muslim
This is a great read on a great man – I made a study of him over the years – he is a phenomenal example of a recent warrior saint and exemplary conduct in war (especially if you know how his enemies conducted themselves):
http://scar.gmu.edu/web-page/jihadist-worth-emulating
Peace.
Hey Sam,
I’m not sure I understand. If I remember correctly, you are talking about a 2 state solution, correct?
OK, so if that is the case, then the Palestinians would be in charge of the WB, right? I mean all of it, not the swiss cheese looking thing that currently exists. If that is the case, the lion’s share of people there are Palestinian. Are you talking about a transfer to Egypt and Jordan of 80-85% of the WB population??
In which case only Jews are left in the WB – ergo, there is no two state solution. Unless you mean Gaza is its own state.
Another question; if the WB is made into its own state, why would it not be possible to leave the 300K settlers under Palestinian jurisdiction or at least move them out when they only constitute 15-20% or so. And because they are the ones in violation of UN resolutions.
Maybe I’m not getting what you are trying to say.
Peace.
Hey, calm down. Don’t let them get under your skin.
Hey Talha,
What I want is likely a minority preference in Israel. The 2SS is the official policy of the USG, an unconsidered and naive implementation of which requires a massive uprooting of Jewish settlements. Or, WB Jews could become citizens of a Palestinian nation, just as Arabs in Israel are citizens of the Jewish state.
I personally wouldn’t have any difficulty accepting and embracing Jewish life in a Muslim country like Morocco, Tunisia or Turkey, but the reality in a Palestinian state is another matter altogether. It is a recipe for disaster [apropos, wasn’t there a massive population exchange during the Indian-Pakistani partition, for precisely similar reasons?]
So while I think the 2SS is the cleanest solution for the long run, it would need to involve population, and perhaps, some land swaps.
However, I am talking of the 1SS as the proximate reality. I have made my views on how this might be carried out crystal clear. The Trump administration has made its intention crystal clear as well. So we shall see what shape that assumes soon enough. Also, it really doesn’t matter what I think, nor most certainly what the peanut gallery on this forum thinks; final dispositions to be reached by the Israeli leadership, the U.S administration, Palestinians, with significant input from the Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordanians.
Hi Sam,
Gabe is my only slur, (although I did call John Derbyshire A LYING BIG MEDIA PRESSTITUTE for reasons having nothing to do with Jews/Israel/Zionism).
Commenters here disagree, often bitterly, on a variety of issues, but few make false factual assertions like Gabe did. His statement, that Palestine was nothing before Zionists got there, is part of Israel’s essential foundational myth, part of the propaganda that enabled the ethnic cleansing of Jaffa, etc., etc., so I couldn’t let it pass. Sorry if that offends you, but his friends at Hasbara Central will cheer him up.
The first comment I ever made here, LOL, was to chastise Art for his Little Jew, Big Jew posts. You know, UR can be a scary and confusing place. Art makes some simple posts, but he’s certainly not a moron, and as far as I can tell he’s not a Jew hater either. (He’s pals with Moshe, after all.) He does grab onto some casual remark and throw it back in your face: gotta be careful!
People have been testy lately. (I have, anyway.) Perhaps the election. It was a huge relief that Trump won, but now it seems like Obama wants to put us on the brink of, or even into, WWIII before he leaves office. IT’S NOT TOO LATE TO FILE A BILL OF IMPEACHMENT – aiding and abetting terrorists is a felony under the Patriot Act.
You, however, have been a different person since summer. When you were in Israel this year, did someone sit you down and read you the riot act? Then you immediately got into scraps. I’ve never know why Geo and S2 are so mean to you. Maybe something you said before I arrived? Sure, I don’t support your vision for Israel, but it’s not the worst we’ve heard. Besides, it’s not my place. I’d just like the U.S. to be independent from Israeli interests, especially wars for its sake.
No, I didn’t write to Diogenes, don’t even remember why I would. The real world has been moving too fast. Mostly I’m preoccupied with Syria, plus my old Jewish friend wants to expel Rebecca Vilkomerson from her post at JVP for her attack on Miko Peled 😉
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-israel-lobby-and-american-policy-conference-keynoters-are-hanan-ashrawi-john-mearsheimer-and-ilan-pappe-300370542.html
Hey Sam,
True enough, but they are illegal even if they exist – and they just keep getting worse. Instead of halting, they are just making the eventual solution even that much more difficult.
OK – so some land from inside Israel proper for some land of the WB? And some Jewish settlers swapped for some Arab Israelis? I’m not getting it.
Or do you mean Israel annexes say the north of the WB and the Palestinians from the north move south and vice versa for the Jewish population? In which case, would the partitioning of land be proportional to demographics? Would, say, the 15% Jewish population get the 15% of the north and the Palestinian get 80-85% (of the original plan? I mean it is already pitifully small as it is.
Yes, this will have to be figured out by the big guys in the Middle East of course.
Peace.
I’m not sure what you think your argument gains by reference to John Locke in a general way. If you cared to give a fact based answer you would deal with the sales of poor land approx where Tel Aviv now extends by Ottoman era landowners to Zionists. And you would have noted the large influx of Arabs drawn by the economic activity generated by the early Zionist settlers.
Fascinating to consider what prompts people to broadcast the evidence of their profound ignorance. Only a little more than a few minutes of spare time reading would acquaint you with the history of intelligence testing in the early 20th century which rated Jews, ansurdly, as almost retarded!
Amen to that.
But these are completely different things. China annexed Tibet and made it part of China; the population of Tibet became citizens of China. That’s clear.
But what’s “Israel’s occupation of pre 1967 Israel“? Again, Israel is a settler-colonial entity; Europeans came from far-away, terrorized and expelled most of the local population, and declared them ethnically inferior and undesirable. Incidentally, the Zionist regime doesn’t even consider the so-called “Arab citizens” citizens. They’re considered ‘guests’.
Now, Jordan’s annexation of West Bank in 1950 was indeed an equivalent of China’s annexation of Tibet. And no one was particularly upset by that…
Well, mass-radicalization does send waves in all directions. If you search for root causes, I’m sure the Zionist enterprise will appear somewhere on the list, even for these events…
Many organizations are founded every year. Most of them remain unknown, unpopular, and eventually disappear. Yet others experience a tremendous swell of support. There are reasons for that.
I’ve been reading these blogs for awhile, and Rehmat has eaten your lunch more than once.
Wizard.
As to the “gas chambers” under discussion being constructed for the purpose of gassing millions of Jews, a retarded 3-year-old would have arrived at the same conclusion as Fred Luechter. Who is indeed a nationally recognized expert in his field of study and expertise.
I do not “dismiss Luechter’s conclusions out of hand”. I merely responded to your assertion that he had proved something with questions designed to find out if you had any basis for such confident assertion. Are you qualified to assess his report? If not, have you researched the relevant literature and concluded that his work has stood up to all the criticisms? As you don’t refer to any of the technical criticisms of his work I presume not.
I didn’t respond to your first mention of him until I had made a minimal Google search. While that obviously couldn’t give me a definitive technical answer to my doubts it did disclose that a Canadian judge had found him not qualified to give expert evidence. While my experience leaves me with some scepticism, not only about supposed experts but about lawyers’ assessments of their technical prowess I trust that you will not find it offensive if I decline to take your amateur enthusiasm as carrying more weight than the professional opinion of a superior court judge.
If you have a case you are yet to make it.
Documented by who, the CIA? You can’t be serious.
I long ago had you on my Commenters to Ignore list as so profoundly stupid as well as offensive that you had no idea how lacking in intellligence you were and no capacity to frame a coherent argument or emgage in civilised conversation. Somehow you have reappeared.
Just this once I invite you to name Luechter’s “field of study and expertise”, cite relevant peer reviewed articles and cite even a single reported court case in which Luechter’s “nationally recognized” expertise has been affirmed.
Otherwise I advise those commenters with whom one may have a rational argument with some respect for facts, logic and probabilities that my future failure to respond to this commenter will be a matter of life’s-too-short policy.
Sam,
Because of the attributes and properties of slime, it is not always possible to determine where the slime ends and the dog shit begins.
Art: None of use feel any guilt for what happened in WWII.
S2C,
May I correct that “None of us feel any PERSONAL guilt for what happened in WWII.”
Meaning “Most all of us were incapable of having anything to do with WWII. It is not our fault that it happened. With that said, our relatives did not start the war. Our relatives ended the war. Bad things happened. They were not angles, there are few angles in war. War is hell. After the war our side treated the losers very well.”
Facts. None of us like what happened to the Jews in WWII. They were non-combatants but suffered about two percent of the deaths. Average Jews suffered because other peoples perceived that their Jew leaders did them wrong. That was very wrong. Such is tribalism. Live by tribalism – die by tribalism.
With that said, we all know that the current day Jews are putting a guilt trip on the world with the intention to do more wrong. This is indisputable. We all know the Jews are using WWII to steal Palestine. And in the process bringing great harm to hundreds of millions of people.
The big picture is that the great bulk of the average American people did the right thing during WWII – they went to work and they went to war. There is no shame in what they did.
To have some pip squeak Jew twist it all into a guilt trip abating more war is disgusting.
Peace — Art
you’re full of crap WoO
Jews corralled the most fertile land in Palestine, the Jezrael valley, and they did it by stealth.
Jews sent armed thugs to evict Arabs from their lavish homes and farms, starting in the 19-teens and lasting until today.
as to ‘who made the desert bloom,’ according to a British surveys of Palestine, 1945 – 1948, it weren’t Jews; they were too busy chasing the British out of the land the British generously provided for them.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/palestinians-made-the-desert-bloom.html
Hey Talha,
I agree of course, unless the people being expelled have no ties to the land and are causing strife and hatred and death and misery. Like the Zionist invaders of Palestine. I’m more in the Helen Thomas camp, that they should go home to Poland and back to Russia where they came from. Unless they’re nice and trying to peacefully assimilate, in which case I’m sure they’re welcome by the indigenous peoples- who have a right to demand who comes or doesn’t come into their lands. No?
difficult indeed, but I’d always error on the side of decentralization. Local sovereignty. Let the Basques (and others) have their own nations if they want to. The international community could help draw up borders and laws that respect the minorities living in Kurdistan, no? Do you suppose there’d be punitive actions against the Persians or Arabs living in a sovereign Kurdistan?
I confess I don’t know that much about that region, but I do know that in principle, I respect all people’s natural (or God given) right to self-determination. Where it gets difficult is when two peoples share a common territory but are intractable due to their culture or ethnic or religious incompatibility. [see Africa, South / Palestine, Israel, etc..]
I know a trini (person from Trinidad) who curses the Brits for importing onto the island nation an equal (sort of) number of Hindus from India and African black Muslims. At some level, they are doomed to eternal strife as both groups vie for power and ascendancy on the island. Some people might say it will all settle down if they just intermarry and blend into one, but if you tried to make that case to my trini friend, I think he’d be less than enthusiastic.
Peace my friend
Uncle Talha: ‘OK – so some land from inside Israel proper for some land of the WB? And some Jewish settlers swapped for some Arab Israelis? I’m not getting it.’
Talha, ‘you r not getting it’ bc u don’t want to; Shameless has been abundandly clear what his views are… it comes down to completing the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, or at least, get as many Palestinians out of the area as possible, send them to Egypt, Jordan, wherever, he says.
The guy is really nauseating.
with all due respect Carroll, this simply is not true!
I would say that in most cases you’d have to be like eight or even maybe ten years old, with a more or less normal intelligence and even strong sense of curiosity/skepticism to discover that the lies about Holocaust gas chambers were a hoax. I really don’t think most three year olds would be able to see behind the curtain that’s been hiding the purveyors of the $hoah, lo these many decades.
Some three year olds, yea sure. But in most cases, you’d have to be much older.
Hey Art,
“our relatives did not start the war. Our relatives ended the war.”
I understand u are a ZUSA citizen. Correct me if I’m wrong. So, your relatives, meaning the avg american joe, no, they had no responsability but, but the US government had a LOT of responsability for causing WWII. This is well documented just not well known.
“After the war our side treated the losers very well.”
I don’t have the time to elaborate, but this is just NOT TRUE.
Best regards.
Touchy touchy – what is this all about — did I mention something very close to you’ll, like “MONEY.”
Just think – you could have made every Palestinian a multi-millionaire and bought Palestine for all the money you’ll have spent on war. You could still do it today – if you would just open your fat wallets.
But no – not you Jews – you do not think that way, do you – you stupid people are mired in you ancient tribal past – generation after generation you inculcate your youth with fear, hate, loathing for humanity. Your relations with humanity are a self-fulfilling reality.
Bad things happen to bad people – when are you going to realize that fundamental fact.
Live right and you Jews will be accepted by all.
Peace — Art
BULL . FUCKING . SHIT!
With full Jewish complicity, far more Germans — by an order of magnitude — were killed after Germany surrendered than during the war.
The people of the USA should be perpetually ashamed of what was done, in their name, to German people after the war.
READ and educate yourself, Art, your kumbaya pablum is not supplying sufficient nutrients to your brain.
THE HIGH COST OF VENGEANCE, by Freda Utley (Utley’s son, Jon, is still active in conservative circles in DC).
Timeline from Other Losses, by James Bacque
[Phil: please don’t hide this behind “More” People need to understand what was done in their name]
Robin to shameless:” Sorry if that offends you, but his friends at Hasbara Central will cheer him up.”
Well Robin, and what is the diff between this gabriel and shama??
Shama is a Hasbara Central operative much as gabriel is.
Why would he even bother defending such an obvious zio liar? Bc he is one too.
I’m certain that you know this by now.
ps: another zio operative who writes at Unz, Ilana Mercer, wrote lines much like gabriels;
I.Mercer: “Israel was a wasteland, a swamp when Jews bought land legally from its owners (Turks held the deeds), dried the swamps, died in droves doing that, and turned a blighted spot into an oasis.”
These people are really shameless liars and you’ll get nothing by pulling your punches.
I’d think this over very carefully if I were you. For her, it’s a much bigger decision, given the purdah-like conditions for women in many Muslim countries. If the move doesn’t work out, you may find yourself a bachelor again. Still, best of luck to you and yours.
Dear Nephew,
I’d like to hear it from Sam directly. I personally hate it when people put words in my mouth so I extend that same courtesy to others.
If that is the proposal, then yes, I oppose it on principle. But at the end of the day, the Palestinians are a people that have generally been abandoned by the rest of their brothers. How long can they fight a modern military force like Israel alone? Will anyone of the Muslim countries commit their army to come to their aid? If they fold and agree to be compensated for their land and leave – they should not have to hang their heads in shame – we should.
From what I am reading though, the Palestinians are moving in the one-state solution and trying to go for a Lebanon-type country and being a significant minority and going for full-fledged civil rights:
http://www.latimes.com/sdhoy-with-the-two-state-solution-a-distant-dream-palestinians-ask-if-it-s-time-to-push-for-a-one-state-so-20161229-story.html
If that happens – it opens up a huge number of possibilities for integration with the rest of the Middle East.
Peace.
Shama, the sad little zio liar goes: ‘Gilad Atzmon, yes indeed; a worse example of a mad scoundrel’
Thanks for proving my point, insect. BTW, you ain’t worth the soles of Atzmon’s shoes.
Let’s take a look now at what some eyewitnesses who have spent time in occupied Palestine have to say on the matter ( not that shameless will approve of them of course):
American Jewish Woman, previously brainwashed by zio propaganda, exposes Israel Apartheid and Ethnic Cleansing
Eva Bartlett An Eyewitnesses Account About How Israel Has Constructed a Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza
ingaza.wordpress.com
P.S. It may take a while still, but eventually the Zio settler entity will cease to exist. Good riddance with bad trash.
No, there will be no genocide, don’t get dramatic… some of the jews will remain and live alongside the indigenous population… most will probably choose to leave… destination… ZUSA, but ZUK should take some also.
These 2 bear special responsability for the whole mess. Plus, zusans and the english really love you guys and your tribe already runs these countries anyway. Zusa, in particular, is a Jew colony.
Which brings up another interesting point; there is no need at all for Israel. This aberration was set up supposedly to make Jews into a normal people, said the zios; instead, it has solved nothing and created a whole new set of problems, much more dangerous to the world.
What’s the point anyway, since more than half of the world’s Jews don’t even live there?
Dear uncle Talha,
You are incorrigible! He has, you r just being difficult.
There is no need for armies, talha. The demographic situation in occupied Palestine is explosive to zio aspirations.
That is why they wanna expell more people. This is much harder to accomplish today than in 48 though.
Take care
Great and inspiring video about the liberation of Aleppo, a turning point in this Zionist inspired war of agression on Syria, carried out by Wahaabi hordes from all over the world. by SyrianGirlpartisan
The Truth About #Aleppo : Victory Tribute
Syria: Jubilant Syrians gather for Christmas celebration in west Aleppo
Syrian, Russian and Hezbollah Flags / portraits of president Assad flanked by those of Putin and Hezbollas secretary general Nasralah!
Syria: Aleppo Cathedral celebrates first peaceful Christmas mass in 4 years
Aleppo celebrates Christmas as Assad visits Damascus convent
Bullshit again.
Jews were most definitely NOT non-combatants.
Jews, like Henry Morgenthau, Jr., played key roles in inciting the war; in scheming to get Congress to acquiesce to his and FDR’s plans to illegally involve USA in the war; and in devising measures to destroy the German people that were (notionally) antithetical to American values.
Jews, like Eric Mendelsohn, “the Jewish architect,” along with several other Jewish architects as well as set designers from Jewish-run Hollywood studios, collaborated with US Air Force and Standard Oil Company to devise the most effective way to incinerate German civilians on a mass scale. The U S Department of the Interior has documented this activity. This was in 1942; the date is significant.
Beginning in 1942, (again, the date should be noted well) young Jews from Germany formed a major proportion of men trained in intelligence work at Fort Ritchie, Maryland, “the home of psychological warfare.” In 2004 a video documentary was made about The Ritchie Boys. The DVD is in my player as I type this. It traces the activities of ten of the Ritchie Boys; arrived in USA before the war started, some were German Jews born in USA; all state that they were motivated by “hate and rage.” In addition to intelligence gathering — i.e. where are troops forming, what equipment, etc.) RBs were trained as “IPW” — Interrogators of Prisoners of War. In addition, they used their facility with German language to prepare leaflets urging Germans to surrender, and used loudspeaker systems to broadcast messages urging Germans to surrender.
Of most interest to me was the work of Morris Parloff, American born of German Jewish lineage and a “student of psychology.” The first German city the Americans captured was Aachen; Parloff and his group were trapped in Aachen while the Battle of the Bulge was raging. They used the time to “interrogate the German civilians of Aachen” — nearly 12,000 interviews — and produce the first “report on German attitudes toward Nazism.” Parloff’s interviews formed the basis for the “de-Nazification questionnaires” that all Germans were required to submit to (frequently, in order to obtain food, or housing, or work).
I thought it significant that Parloff said that, while the military (i.e. US military) decided that Nazis should be permitted to participate in the governance and re-stabilization of Aachen — i.e. running hospitals, businesses, government, etc., Parloff and his Jewish team were “outraged” at the thought of Nazis in leadership positions, and insisted on absolute de-Nazification. In other words, a young man motivated by free-floating rage took charge of the American footprint and process of winding down a brutal war. Parloff’s vengefulness mirrored the outrageous Morgenthau plan that FDR, Stalin, and Churchill agreed to and that was implemented for at least two years, before other events** — and not the milk of human kindness — intervened to persuade Gen. Marshall that the Morgenthau plan was counterproductive and that investing in the deindustrialization of Germany was a better plan.
(This theme is even more significant when one recognizes that the process that Jerry Bremer imposed in Iraq — the de-Baathification of Iraq’s military — was patterned on the de-Nazification program of US occupation forces in Germany. It was wrongheaded then, in Germany, and wrongheaded in Iraq, but if we keep on with delusional perceptions such as Art expressed, we will never get it right.)
In the DVD Parloff stated that “he had no training in interviewing civilians,” and was only a “student of psychology.” He went on to become a clinical psychologist who worked for 30 years for the US government National Institutes of Health, director of Mental Health.
** Those “events” that eventually brought about the re-humanization of American behavior toward Germans in Occupied Germany are described by Cora Sol Golsdtein in “Capturing the German Eye.” They are these:
1. Communists in the Russian zone were “competing” with US occupiers wrt their treatment of Germans, and the Communists were winning the propaganda war. USA felt compelled to liberalize its treatment of Germans in order to gain the support of the German population in the Cold War.
2. Blacks. The German people had their noses rubbed deep and relentlessly in the shit of their evil treatment of Jews. Goldstein describes how the images that we all know, of corpses at Dachau, became the iconic definition of Nazism. Germans were systematically taught — or coerced– to hate Nazism and to recant the evil of having thought themselves “superior to Jews.”
BUT German people were keenly aware of how Blacks (they were Negroes, then) were second-class citizens in the US military. Wasn’t that the same thing?
So the US occupiers had to ratchet down the psychological warfare against Germans lest it reflect too much hypocrisy.
btw — Goldstein’s book reveals additional instances of Jews, working through CIA, contravened the wishes of the US Congress and military leadership to impose draconian measures on the German people and to reshape the German cultural set in favor of the Jewish preferences that Germans had rejected in the Weimar era. Jews were able to do this because they had the US military “monopoly on violence” backing them up.
Just a bit more of the fine way the US treated its vanquished enemy, Art.
I don’t think there is anything to be proud of. Quite the opposite.
no!
you blame the American people for what the Fiend does, but it’s we the American people who suffer this pestilence more than most. We turn on our radios and televisions and out pours sewage. We’re forced to fund a fecal government that foments death and misery and hatred around the world, and here at home.
We’re forced to fund wars of aggression and genocide and horrors the world over, as our young people are ground up as cannon fodder in Eternal Wars for Israel. We have an Orwellian police state with total surveillance imposed on us already, and our police are being turned into murderous goons with the intent to cow us all into submission to the Fiend.
And you want us to suffer further? What is it about people that they can’t separate the criminal from their victims. It’s the British pedophile aristocracy that is the biggest enemy of the British people. Why must they suffer further for the crimes of Tony Blair and Theresa May, when they have no power to put these people in jail where they belong.
I don’t blame the Russian people for the horrors the Jewish Bolsheviks unleashed on the world in the last century, and in like form, I don’t blame the average American working class schmo for the myriad crimes of my government. I consider the US federal government as the enemy of mankind and human reason and peace and prosperity for all peoples. We all suffer this plague on humanity, and we should all strive and work to end it, rather than give into rancor and blame for the powerless and put upon.
The crimes of Tony Blair and Bush and Obama and Merkel and Erdagon and the House of Saud and so many others are the crimes of the criminals, not the people of England or America or Germany or Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Many of whom are stridently outspoken against all these enormities the world over. We the American people have opposed the wars, we demanded that Obama not bomb Syria when he went to congress and asked for approval. We voted against the war hag. We voted for Trump because he is against the Eternal War madness. What more can we do?
If Trump turns out to be a ruse and a liar and a stooge of the Zio-con scum, is that the fault of the American people?
Hey JR,
Thanks for the advice.
She already wears hijab and is studying to be a certified scholar of the Hanafi school – she knows what she’s getting into. Most places like Egypt, Syria, etc. are not so big on niqab or keeping women in-doors – other more rural places certainly are – just depends on where you go. We’ve been to Egypt before, she likes Alexandria a lot – apparently (according to her family tree) one of her ancestors was a crusader that died invading Egypt.
Your name sounds Swedish, correct? I visited once; Gottenburg, Ulriceham, Jonkoping etc. – beautiful country, wonderful people. Food is a bit bland, but that’s what I get for eating spicy Pakistani food for much of my life.
Peace and thanks for the well-wishes if we end up going that way.
Do you think any of your rambles or those of any of the other morons insulting Jews here matter even a bit? You are really stupid. Do you think Trump cares a whit what you say?
So Little Jew – once again you demonstrate that it is Jews against the world. Your sick little culture will never set you free to be a real full-fledged human being – sorry for you. The crime is that you are doing the same to your son and grandson.
As to Trump – he is better than Hillary. I think that he has brought in some half sane Jews who want to fix the US economy. They will do it the wrong way – but they will try. Jews have too much invested in America to intentionally take it down.
You think just like Netanyahu – that Trump is your savior. That he is going come in kicking ME ass. He campaigned against that – we will see.
Peace — Art
p.s. How is blood your pressure – hope everything is all right with you.
S2C,
You are 100% correct on the Big Jews – they have major blood on their hands. But they were not the ones who went to the WWII Nazi work camps. That was my point.
Peace — Art
As I understand it, the national IQ of Israel is actually 90.
A hundred years ago, in 1916, the Germans made the best peace offer in history. They stated that all participants should take their weapons and return to the borders they had before the war started.
Instead, British Zionists made the Balfour agreement. If they got America into the war (after the Germans had already offered peace on the most generous terms in history) to fight the Germans then Britain would give the Jews Palestine (which belonged to Turkey).
The Zionists (Untermeyer, Sussex false flag) tricked the Americans into the war and got 100,000 of them killed. They were responsible for the Treaties of Versalles (the most unfair impositions in history) and ensured the conditions to foment WW2.
In 1917 the Zionists published completely false stories about Germans bayonetting and eating babies, crucifying Canadians, raping nuns etc. They are still continuing with similar stuff about WW2
Their mainstream media has said nothing about this. Is that smart or just devious?
Interesting distinction, Art, but I don’t think it flies.
There were thousands of Jewish partisans floating throughout Europe, especially Poland, and attacking German civilians as well as German military. Almost 2 million Polish Jews fled to Russia; many joined fighting forces there, generally not in uniform.
There is evidence that some of the typhus that crippled work camps was deliberately introduced by Jews.
It is also a fact, admitted by some, generally western-oriiented Jews, that Eastern Jews were filthy and likely to carry diseases, which is why some of the stringent measures were taken to maintain hygiene.
As for the work camps: here’s the balance I strike:
The Allies formed the military policy, even before war was imminent (i.e. in the early 1920s), that the destruction of an adversary’s ability to build war materiel, including the destruction of the personnel who would carry out that production, was to be the keystone of the next war, which would likely be waged against Germany.
At the same time, those same military planners were very well aware that the USA was a nearly impregnable fortress: German’s did not have a snowball’s chance of harming anything more than a few scattered factories here or there, if any at all; and when, in Oct. 1938, FDR and Henry Morgenthau Jr. sat down and planned to build eleven aircraft factories, they scattered them all over the USA.
At about the same time — early 1920s — Arthur Harris had formed the conviction that killing the adversary’s civilian population thru use of aerial bombing was an effective strategy in that it destroyed the morale. Harris came to this conclusion after having bombed Iraqi villages when they rebelled against their British overlords. A few bombing runs, a couple thousand dead villagers, and the entire region capitulated. Harris thought the same would apply in Germany.
USA and the British carried out their plan of attacking German war manufactures as well as German civilians.
USA was, of course, the invulnerable “arsenal of democracy.”
The German response to the destruction of its factories and the killing of its workers was to conscript labor in remote locations. Tit for tat, with this difference: Germans were killed; forced workers were merely forced workers. They were more or less well cared for; compared to Dead, they had an infinite advantage.
One other thing: we have been trained to parrot notions about the camps that make us think they were all about punishing Jews, all about killing Jews. Jews jews jews. In fact, large percentages of the camp inmates were not Jewish.
In further point of fact: the Allied firebombing raids on Germany “de-housed” an estimated 7 million German civilians — as was intended by Bomber Harris.
Where did those 7 million de-housed Germans go?
We know that teen-aged German girls worked in munitions and other such camps. Were de-housed German civilians among the dead at places like Nordhausen, etc.? Is it at least a possibility? Does a Jewish corpse look different from a non-Jewish corpse?
I submit that there is far more complexity in the situation, and that there is a far greater level of Jewish complicity, on the Big Jew as well as the Little Jew level, than Big, Little or even medium-sized Jews has ever admitted, to himself much less to those upon whom blame has been exclusively placed.
If Little Jews did not deserve to be harmed for the sins of Big Jews, then neither did Little Germans deserve to be harmed for the sins of Big Germans. But as Jorg Friedrich makes clear in his book, “The Fire,” it was precisely the tactic of the Allied firebombing campaign to attempt to bring about the capitulation of the Big Germans — Hitler & German leadership — by killing innocent civilians. We know this because the Allies dropped leaflets on German civilians telling them to overthrow their government in order to avoid being incinerated. The Allied firebombers did not destroy the Reichstag in Berlin — that is, firebombers did not target Hitler directly. Russians brought down German headquarters after Hitler had suicided.
sorry about the wordiness — if I were a better writer I could say it in fewer words.
the ones who went to the WWII Nazi work camps.
Why was this, Arts? Why did the Jews have to go to the work camps? Were there any other “camps”?
Arts, do you know how many German Jews died in WWI doing their sacred duty by defending the nation state of Germany.
Arts, did you know that the last significant political opposition to your hero, H. was by President Hindenburg who refused to allow H. to deny WWI German Jewish veterans their pensions?
Arts, I resist the idea that there are different species of extant humans.
Arts, you weaken my resistance.
Hi Robin,
Hope your friend’s troubles at the JVP resolve soon. I am beginning to like Rebecca 🙂
Cant’ say that I’ve changed my views since summer. At least nothing of basic importance; perhaps only stressing more, the practical aspects at hand. I’m afraid I do occasionally get annoyed when I spot commenters relentlessly spewing exaggerated anti-Israel propaganda. If you haven’t visited Israel (including the WB) you should, and see for yourself the “great oppression” Israel is involved in. Gaza is an entirely different matter and Egypt needs to take charge of it.
Anyway, I shouldn’t have lost my cool.
While I am fine accepting as a matter of free-speech principle, people harbouring whatever views they choose, I do draw a line at outright, inane racism; which is what prompted me to take a dim view of Diogenes-the-latter, who, apparently oblivious of the cosmopolitan core of the original man, announced with untroubled glib abandon his new-found embrace of life according to Joe Webb!
The internal contradictions were stunning, not to put too fine a point on it. I thought I’d seen my share of righteous do-gooding, but I hadn’t evidently.
Finally, I note as a general matter [not for your posts particularly], that I find it wanting, attempts to wave Messrs Mere and Waltz, as a prophylactic which clears the war-like history of all great powers and reduces the same to a solitary causal agent, Israel. That is patently simple-minded. Mind you this not an absolution of the Jewish cadre neocons in the U.S., but merely a reminder that any balanced approach would be a rather different tell.
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/iranophobes-on-parade/#comment-1677843
Quite right. Shan’t lose it again if I can help it!
@L.K
destination… ZUSA
Rurik: no!
Buahaha, dude, I have to say I could kinda hear you yelling ‘nooooo’, had me LOL for a minute, I kid you not!
Having stopped lol – i’m still smiling – I sort of find your objections a little strange…
First bc, if memory serves, from previous talks, you sounded like you really liked the Tribe… maybe I misremember and/or misunderstood. I do recall you even invited Zio troll and sad little liar, shama, for a friendly drink. So why not take in another, say, 4/5 million of these pests, er, I mean, of these fine people?
As to your claim that ‘but it’s we the American people who suffer this pestilence more than most’ I must call such a statement ‘ridiculous’.
Do you really believe that you guys have suffered anything like the Palestinians, the Iraqis, the Syrians?? C’mon now.
Like I said, the elite gypsies already largely run ZUSA, so it is not like something would dramatically change, right? ZUSA is a very large country, it could easily absorb a lot of them. I bet ZUSA would be their numero uno choice too.
What does not appear reasonable to me is that the Palestinians must continue to endure such a terrible fate, a fate which would not have befallen them without crucial ZUSA support, which as we are witnessing, may become even worse, under Trump. Didn’t Trump promisse to be fair to both sides during the campaign… these guys always promisse one thing and deliver another.
Let’s also not lump ZUSA and Saudi Barbaria together. You people live in the land of the ‘free’ and the ‘brave’, correct? Ok, not so much… but still you have some freedom, you can organize and protest, etc… the problem is that zamericans rarely take advantage of these remaining freedoms… too insouciant.
This is not a serious problem just in ZUSA, but in most of the so called Western Democracies too. Very little participation, nobody cares, until things get real ugly.
Where were the Italians to protest against their country taking part in the destruction of Libya? Now, they r feeling quite restless, what with all the boatloads of sub-saharan blacks invading Italy trough Libya…
In supposed Democracies, the citizenry has to participate and pay attention, keep the guard up, bc the oligarchs, the Fiend, they never stop doing their thing.
If we are constantly asleep at the wheel, we cannot complain all that much.
For example, the ZUSAN political system is 100% corrupt. But I never hear americans talking about radically reforming the system, u guys just keep playing by the rules of the oligarchy, electing either a democ-rat or republican stooge of the elites, and expecting different results. Why not create a new, fresh mass movement/party?
Without real, meaningful reform, it is naive to expect change.
The zionists rob you guys blind and you cannot even stage mass protests!
Most don’t know, don’t care. So, if I help vote Trump into power, and then this individual starts a war, say, with Iran – he won’t, unless he is crazy – then yes, I’m a little responsible for that. At the very least, I, and everyone else who voted for him should be up in arms demanding no war and the guy’s resignation.
Best regards and a happy new year to you, Rurik!
2SS:
Yes precisely, that is the meaning of a land-and-population swap. It is going to be difficult but not impossible. The large settlements are going to be absorbed into Israel and swapped for land from within the green line, possibly expanding existing Israeli-Arab towns. The small settlements will have to be handed over to the Palestinian state. All Israeli Arabs who wish to take Palestinian citizenship will need to move; I doubt very many will. Similarly, Jews in the settlements who wish to take Pal citizenship will need to move as well. I don’t think we’ll need more that the digits on our hands to count them. Population and land swaps will be phased over, say a year or two. The basic principle of land swaps will be driven by an objective function which minimises population movement.
1SS:
I think this is the more likely outcome at present. Palestinians who wish to move to Jordan etc. will obtain through an International agreement, financial and relocation support. Land-owning citizens will be paid fair value for their assets. Israel will become a nation with a significant minority. What is a manageable size of this minority? I don’t think this should be viewed too differently than say, what Belgium or Switzerland deal with.
No, I don’t mean this. That would start the Pal state with an outright handicap. Existing Arab towns inside Israel and close to the Green line will need to be expanded according to need.
Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, with an International force from the three religions securing her. It’ll be similar to a greatly expanded Vatican guard. Jews and Christians will be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount if they choose to.
Ramallah will be the capital of the Pal state.
Glad I gave you the chance to speak for yourself – this seems one of the more reasonable explanations actually.
Peace.
Hey Talha,
I had missed this post of yours. All I say is that you ought to consider moving only if your religious yearnings prompt you to do so; not on account of any addled sentiments held by any white-nationalist-nativists in this country, exaggeratedly represented by poor samples drawn from this webzine.
S2C,
We each have our cultural positions and our selected facts on WWII. There were many sides – each with truths and lies – goods and bads. If it were not for the Jew manipulation, it would not be a topic of discussion.
I prefer the now.
On another article someone brought up the Swiss. Now those are some altogether people. A neutral, democratic, peaceful, prosperous, people. It is a nation where local is king. Where local is sovereign.
They speak four different languages. Vote on everything important. Every home is armed.
Every town is a separate entity with an identity – your neighbor townsmen are considered foreigners.
It is a nation of secure stable local people – how nice.
Peace — Art
Hey Sam,
Don’t sweat it – life isn’t a popularity contest, so I don’t plan to play. Especially not to the tune of those on anonymous forums. My views on this issue were posted here (when someone suggested I to go to Dar ul-Islam):
“That’s not a problem – I’m not begging to stay. I know quite well what the traditional view on Muslims residing in non-Muslim countries is; that we are guests with a covenant with the ruling authorities and a social contract with the people…
At this point, I have not been formally asked by the ruling authorities to leave, I have great relations with my neighbors, and my IT director has made it clear he doesn’t know what he would do without me, so right now things are working out well for everyone involved.
Also, my wife is a White convert and (silly her) seems to think she has just as much a right to stay here as any other White person – who listens to their husbands these days?”
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-sun-people-tsunami-and-the-inevitability-of-lifeboat-ethics/#comment-1700202
Peace.
Maybe true and interesting but are you one of those irritating Anonymous’s who just likes to hear the sound of his own voice regardless of the conversation he is barging in on?
See #98, #110, #151, #199 as well as #338. When Rothschilds and others in the 19th century helped the minority of Jews escaping life in the Russian empire who didn’t choose to go West or to the farther flung parts of the British Empire like Australia or South Africa to settle in Ottoman Palestine they did it by buying land. Do you deny it? Do you deny that it included unproductive absentee landlords’ large holdings in the area of Tel Aviv? (I gather the sales pissed off many Arabs but so far it is exemplary compared with the 19th century European settlement of the US). Do you deny that the Arab population of Palestine subsequently increased substantially by immigration? Your denials would be part of the conversation. Otherwise kindly return to the bar and barge in on someone else’s argument.
Since most of your comments to Robin were directed to me, I think it’s only fair that I should respond.
Please furnish specific examples of my exaggerations. btw – how do you think those of us feel when we spot commenters relentlessly spewing exaggerated pro-Israel propaganda?
Inane racism? While it’s true that Diogenes the Cynic considered himself a cosmopolitan and a citizen of the world, I don’t think he would have subscribed to the concept of radical inclusion. You know, the concept put forward by rabbi Matt Rosenberg when he tried to challenge the alt-right Richard Spencer with ‘radical inclusion and love’. Here is a quick summary of their exchange:
So because I openly declared that I no longer worshipped at the feet of the false god of multiculturalism (after disovering the Frankfurt School propagated this meme to undermine the pillars of Western culture) and rejected radical inclusion, that makes me an inane racist?
Don’t you, like the rabbi, also reject radical inclusion for Israel? Why doesn’t that make you an inane racist?
Stunning, indeed.
I think Rurik best encapsulated my sentiments on this issue when he wrote:
And, finally, with respect to this comment:
the two professors did no such thing. What they did do was provide a non-judgmental, clinical, objective assessment of the pros and cons of the special relationship and they concluded very definitively that said relationship was a liability to the interests of the American people. If you have a beef with anything they’ve written, produce specific examples where they have distorted the truth. I welcome it.
btw – I like your attempt at disparaging the two distinguished professors by altering the spelling of their names… very professional.
American Principles First
It might be a little early, but this line gets my nod for best script for the upcoming academy awards.
Your argument appears to be that when a country is a recognised sovereign nation by (presumably) the standards of international law – or by the generality of other nations’ recognition maybe – it can acquire territory, including populated territory, by conquest and annexation. So you would argue that if Israel were ever a legal nation it could annex the West Bank and make it part of Israel as China has made Tibet part of China and Indonesia has made West Irian part of Indonesia.
Recognition of nationhood can be a bit messy and mixed with the question of which government is recognised and what territory a government has control over. But isn’t it a bit late for a supporter of Chinese claims to deny Israel’s national status? After all, you will find a Chinese Embassy at 222 Ben Yehuda Street in Tel Aviv and I presume the Chinese envoy has presented his credentials to the President of Israel.
Perhaps I am overrating the scrupulous technical accuracy with which you seek to make your arguments and it is from your heart rather than your head that they spring. After all the notion that Israel’s Arab voting citizens who are entitled to confer residence on a foreign spouse are not “considered” to be citizens but “considered” to be “guests” is legally illiterate handwaving leading nowhere.
Didn’t the zionists drag America into WW1 on behalf of England in exchange for England’s support of a Jewish state in the middle east? Wasn’t that the gist of the Balfour Declaration? And didn’t American zionists support and fund Hitler in WW2?
Didn’t zionist (jewish) Bolshevik’s kill tens of millions of Christian Russians?
Isn’t satanic zionism (communism/NWO) the evil we’re dealing with today? Why are these people incapable of peace and enjoying life?
It is discouraging that America has Jews as its #1 foreign policy.
“The internal contradictions were stunning..” They ARE stunning. A person seems able to hold an infinitely variable assortment of seemingly conflicting views. Like, how can so-and-so think a, b, and c… and also believe x…? Mind boggling. But it happens all the time: you probably have some opinionated, grumpy old uncle who exasperates you.
Anyway, for a long time I despised Joe Webb, probably for different reasons than you might have. But Joe has surprising depth of experience and articulates certain points better than anyone here (that I’ve seen). I was delighted that he went out to a lefty-sponsored event in Berkeley and gave them a run for their money.
This isn’t a great segue, but this film speaks to the general subject. Two links, because the one with Italian subtitles is a better copy. (You need English if you don’t speak Hebrew.)
DEFAMATION 2009 (sub ita)
Behind the Scenes of the ADL
DEFAMATION (sub eng)
Interesting.
So was the reason that European explorers always went disguised that the Meccan populace was always more fanatical than people elsewhere, or that the peninsular Arabs subscribed even then to a different interpretation, or something along those lines?
David Hume once said: “but what is man but a heap of contradictions.”
To which I always hasten to add: “true enough, but some heaps are bigger than others.”
I’d have preferred responding to this with more than the ten minutes I have available.
I declared no high-minded affinity for Diogenes (my position on cultural drift is couched in terms of the essence of numbers); it was you who did that; and then, with the effortless abandon of a skater on the ice, made a quick and convenient turn to the white nativism of Monsieur Webb.
The frosting on that particular cake came in the form of a confident claim regarding Diogenes’ preferences for ‘radical inclusion’ as if that poor Socratic wight would’ve had anything to say about it.
Not quite done, you bring out a rabbi’s interview with Spencer the neo-nazi; apparently, the rabbi’s inarticulateness secured a license for your topical and expedient abandonment of poor Diogenes. I think I am in a better position to speculate on what that philosopher might have told you!
Not quite done even yet, you invoke the Rurik gambit. What that proves beyond assertions which may be generously called polemical, but more factually rubbish [what are the numbers of non-white immigrants coming into Canada as a percentage of the population? Uncontrolled and infinite? wtf does that mean? Prove that you phenotype is about to be subsumed.] is best left to a thinking reader to judge for themselves.
About M&W; they may be profs but they do not have the last word as you often seem to believe. They are agenda driven as much as the next academic, bound to surface with equally motivated causes to promote.
Yes, the evil Jew-matrix has been running strong for well over 2000 thousand years now and is at the root of all misery known to mankind and God. I tremble at the thought of what they have in store for us in the next 2000.
Let’s clearly delineate our respective positions on the key issues to see who is guilty of stunning contradictions, shall we:
1. Multiculturalism for western countries
Sam Shama: since multiculturalism is a good thing, no restrictions should be placed on immigration.
geokat62: since multiculturalism is something that was promoted by the Frankfurt School to subvert the foundations of Western culture (by seeking the dissolution of the family, et al), controls should be placed on immigration to ensure these countries retain their historical western character.
2. Multiculturalism for the Zionist project
Sam Shama: since multiculturalism is a bad thing, controls should be placed on immigration to ensure the ZP retains it’s Jewish character.
geokat62: since multiculturalism is something that was promoted by the Frankfurt School to subvert the foundations of Western culture (by seeking the dissolution of the family, et al), controls should be placed on immigration to ensure the ZP retains its Jewish character…
BUT, here’s the proviso: since the Jewish state required the dispossession of the indigenous population (after the rules of international law were well established in the modern era), and since it required subjecting said population to a brutal occupation lasting several decades (with no end in sight), the ZP forfeited its right to these privileges.
And they wonder why they’re universally disliked.
Except for the absence of 4 languages being spoken, your description of Switzerland sounds much like what my homeland, the South was like prior to the US military invading and destroying or stealing any and everything of worth or value. A mission that, unfortunately for the rest of the world, has continued, uninterrupted from that day, to this day.
Oh, I almost forgot….
The guy who’s advocating the transfer of 1.8M people has the chutzpah to call me an inane racist for advocating the imposition of immigration controls to ensure western nations retain their historic character.
Talk about stunning contradictions.
Anti-Semitism Awareness Act = NEVER USE THE WORD “JEWS”, NEVER EVER
This post and your previous one made me realise that you are grasping at straws and they are failing to keep you afloat.
Had you been debating on a seasoned forum, of pedigree, you’d have caused much mirth as you stepped off the podium, and chutzpah, that hoary Jewish gem, wouldn’t have been the word summoned in the minds of the audience; comedy, I daresay would’ve better caught the mood. So, to start with, as one who rejects multiculturalism, you’d serve yourself better refraining from its use.
It’s of no use putting yourself through contortions attempting to respond to this post I am about to complete. But do so if you wish. It had begun to dawn on me during our recent exchanges on the subject of crude oil volatility; you’re a person incapable of abandoning false premises once the teeth are firmly lodged in the flawed bone.
So, to turn our eyes on a matter which should be fairly straightforward, in the following posts I laid out what I believe might be equitable solutions:
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1706823
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1706866
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709344
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709344
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709856
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1710096
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1710955
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1711008
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1711036
It is certainly not ‘The guy who’s advocating the transfer of 1.8M people”, but one who is calling to explore voluntary swaps with fair compensation. It is the fellow who also remarked
I never understood why “religious” Jews object to Palestinians co-habiting a common ancestral land; nor Hamas/Pals declaring their intention to throw every Jew into the sea.
Those were the posts which prompted Talha to remark something to the effect that he found my position to be one of the more reasonable or acceptable explanations.
Let us ask Talha, RobinG, Iffen or Wiz, those interlocutors with whom I exchanged courteous words if they found anything in my posts above which might be construed as forcing population transfers.
I think your ‘delineation’ is actually a wobbly strawman.
So, getting past the nonsense and observing you hadn’t been able to construct even a figment to counter my observations in #390: unable to offer why extremely small numbers of non-white immigration to Canada causes you to invoke the Rurik gambit, unable to explain the meaning of infinite immigration etc, unable to prove that your phenotype is about to be lost forever, I am left to wonder what alarm bells plague your moments of private contemplation?
Finally and most importantly – stowing the well-known talking points re: Zionism ad nauseum and sticking to the question of personal integrity- for one who so grandly proclaims a desire to ‘ensure western nations retain their historic character,’ claims Diogenes as the zenith of one’s cultural aspirations, how do they then reconcile that with their expedient abandonment of said principles ?
Perhaps Diogenes came with a contingency clause.
Good night.
I’m not sure if fanatical is quite the word I would use because it simply has to do with legitimate interpretation of the source texts. Maybe it seems fanatical or liberal in someone else’s framework, but it does not jive with ours.
To the point…the area of the Hijaz has undergone changes in control in history, from being administered by the Maliki interpretation to the Hanafi (even shifted to the Ismaili with the Fatimids in charge for a while) and currently neo-Hanbali/Wahhabi. All depends on who was in charge; the experience of the European explorers would have reflected this reality.
And yes, the fact that currently non-Muslims cannot visit those sites is related to the fact that Wahhabis are in control.
On a side, but related, note; according to the Hanafi school (historically and currently the most populous school) – all non-Muslims are allowed to use a mosque for prayer as long as there is no introducing of idols or related outward polytheistic activity and the like and they observe modesty of dress.
Peace.
you’re a person incapable of abandoning false premises once the teeth are firmly lodged in the flawed bone.
This is a human trait that we all share.
Once you can see that they apply a unique evaluation to Israel, judging Israel by a set of standards that they apply to no other country; the die is cast. There is only one basis for doing this.
Some that comment here are open and blatant; some play it close to the vest. They are not here to gain understanding and exchange ideas. They are here to propagandize.
That’s not the issue we’ve been discussing here. We were talking about settler-colonialism, and I objected to the notion that the China/Tibet situation is a species of the same phenomenon, that’s all. The legality of annexation of Tibet is a separate unrelated issue.
And what I’m saying has nothing to do with legality, I’m just trying to clarify the essence of the situation in Palestine in the last 60 years. The essence of it, what’s being happening there all these years.
To me — and to many others all over the world — it’s the last attempt at Western settler-colonialism, similar, for example, to European colonization of North America, started in mid-1600s, and completed, for the most part, 200 (or so) years later.
Fanaticism must mean something, and if Burton is correct that
fanaticism is, I think, a decent shorthand for such action, which also fits, to me, one of Dr. Johnson’s definitions, “a man with wild notions of religion”. However, another definition implies that fanatics are “struck with superstitious frenzy”, and the word itself is certainly unnecessarily pejorative, so I withdraw it happily if you so insist.
Burton may be exaggerating, of course; it was him I principally had in mind, since he traveled in 1850-something when the Ottomans were in charge, hence my question.
Wasting a half-hour sorting through Burton has also answered this, though:
On the other hand, perhaps the Meccans themselves can hardly be regarded as fanatical, if they exhibit (in the 1850s), compared to other Muslims,
(!)
The grace of God be with you.
We were talking about settler-colonialism,
You mean like where the Han are moving to Tibet?
Speaking of an over-used word, to my knowledge there’s only one group of people with enough chutzpah (gall) to steal and occupy 9/10s of another people’s land, then offer to bargain and swap the rightful owners out of what little is left. And if that my friend, does not sum-up why Jews are loathed and despised the world over, then nothing ever will.
Hi Robin,
I plan to watch the youtube features; in Hebrew, and hopefully will have something interesting to tell you.
You are right I do get exasperated rather easily but try my best to contain the emotion from erupting into plain view; cannot say I always succeed with high marks. I find exasperating, those professional mourners crying tears over matters on which they have formed a distinct dogma; one which obviously suits their theatrics, forswearing all objective appraisal. I suppose it is normal human psychology to cling to narratives releasing the warm glow of a piety well broadcast.
I don’t despise Joe Webb, on the contrary, and somewhat troublingly, I find him intriguing. As you say, he does have a depth of experience and ability to cut through the malarky of SJW’s infesting our campuses. But I instinctively recoil when the n-word, or ‘mexxers’ or ‘muzzies’ etc, are thrown around with little thought as to their effect on entire groups of people! Einstein had said something cutting re: this habit, common for that era, something which spoke to the inanity of persons who practiced it.
This just in:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/12/israel-crimes-settlements-161229075030106.html
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that the “voluntary and fair” part applied to the WB and according to your proposed solution Gaza should be Egypt’s problem? In my eyes, this is just another form of population transfer, notwithstanding the fact that you are reluctant to present it as such.
Forget about Canada for a moment. Let’s talk about your beloved USA. What do you make of this headline:
Does this not represent alarm bells for you? If not, why not?
Now, let’s look at Canada. Here are the latest projections:
The Franfurt School would be very pleased with these outcomes, to be sure.
You seem to think that Diogenes is the only figure in the panoply of Greek thinkers. He’s not. There are dozens and dozens. And as you know there are many that rank much higher than Diogenes in terms of their contributions to western human thought (e.g., Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Euclid, Heraclitus, Democratus, Hippocrates, Sophocles, Euripedis, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, etc. etc. etc.) I simply cited Diogenes in the context of one of our discussions to explain why I was urging you to be consistent with your reasoning, remember?… either rule #1 (end jusify the means) or rule #2 (adherance to morality). And Diogenes best described the importance of being consistently honest (hence the lantern in daylight looking for an honest man). That was it. I didn’t declare that Diogenes was my northern star when it came to my views on immigration. No, my northern star for that is the Frankfurt School.
Speaking of the FS, you’ve never shared your views on this group, Sam. Do you agree they were the inspiration for the New Left via their propagation of cultural Marxism? What do you make of their goals – undermining the foundations of Western culture by attacking the key institutions including the family, by promoting multiculturalism, diversity, etc. – so that fascism never takes root in America to prevent another holocaust. Do you think it was a noble project? Or do you condemn their efforts given the visible damage it has done to Western societies?
I guess the fundamental question I’m driving at is this: are you a defender of Western culture – i.e., do you count yourself among those who think it is important to ensure Western societies take the necessary steps to retain their western character before it’s too late – or not?
I already addressed this, and you’re just being annoying. People are free to move around within their own country – China, in this case. They are all citizens of China, and, even if it may sound surprising here on this website, very few people are obsessed with meaningless ethnic labels. Han, Schman, nobody cares.
I’ve clearly articulated my reasons for evaluating Israel differently:
You can disagree, but your implying there other ulterior motives for my doing so (i.e., racism) is pathetic. And you have the nerve to become indignant when I challenge your honesty and patriotism?
Great article.
The piece has a very provocative headline:
But even more provocative is the author:
As I’ve stated previously on numerous occasions, these Jews who speak out against injustice are truly noble spirits.
But according to some, Stanley Cohen is just another self-hating Jew.
very few people are obsessed with meaningless ethnic labels. Han, Schman, nobody cares
I wonder if the Tibetans and Uyghurs would agree with you.
and you’re just being annoying
I can understand this. It always annoys the hell out of me when someone continually points out that I am applying a double standard.
but your implying there other ulterior motives for my doing so (i.e., racism) is pathetic.
This is not my intent.
This is my intent.
You decided this first:
Then you looked around (and you are still looking) and latched onto justifications for your views.
‘But according to some, Stanley Cohen is just another self-hating Jew.’
Yep. No voice is ever any good according to these shameless zio liars, unless it is a Zio supremacist voice.
You say “It is not the issue we (sic) have beeb discussing here” but I presume you hope and intend your thinking and arguments will be logically consistent so it is a legitimate way of testing them to seek to draw out the implications.
It seems clear that your argument about China and Tibet (and I presume Indonesia and West Irian) means that if the Israeli conquest of the West Bank had led to annexation then there would have been no more problem about the Jewish settlers moving into the West Bank to ĺive and work than Han people doing the same in Tibet – in both cases to the considerable distress of those who had been living there for a considerable time before the annexation.
The Indians in Fiji and Chinese in Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam and the Philippines – though not it seems in Thailand – are all examples of settlers who, eventually at least, in a Malthusian world had much the same effect on the earlier inhabitants as the settlers on West Bank Palestinuans. In the earlier times with relatively small populations involved the fact that there.was no great contest for land or resources and that all were subject to an imperial ruling power mitigated the conflict until after the imperial power left. Not strictly analagous or applicable to the Palestine scenario but worth considering when one is setting up one’s judgmental yardsticks if only to give perspective.
Hi Carroll,
I was thinking about people from different parts of this earth; variations in cultural stereotypes and the all too human tendency to form opinions of others. Jews do have a reputation, don’t they? So do southerners in this country. I’ve alway held true southerners with something of a fondness. There is a certain solidity about them: people like Fred Reed. They also write better than the yanks.
On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims. Now, one might argue as to who the latest owners were, and how they were displaced; even on that basis, I reckon I could make the obvious trumping argument. You might then say colonial settlements stopped a hundred years or a bit earlier; I could then remark on the arbitrariness of that observation: two hundred years or sixty years, are mere blinks of an eye on the evolutionary scale, and man will continue to do what man always has, and all we can hope for are negotiated settlements away from war.
That’s one explanation. And the other is that I arrived at this conclusion after considering all the available facts in the observable world.
So there are two equally valid explanations for my reasoning. But for some reason you choose to doubt the one I put forward.
Let me remind you of what you recently wrote:
By not accepting the explanation for my reasoning I put forward, aren’t you indirectly questioning my honesty?
aren’t you indirectly questioning my honesty?
No. I am questioning your ability to understand how you have formed your opinion.
You are right I do get exasperated rather easily but try my best to contain the emotion from erupting into plain view; cannot say I always succeed with high marks.
Oh my – the victimization of it all – the suffering!
This poor Jew has to listen to the truth of his tribe’s evil misdeeds. People have the nerve to throw his words back at him – to remind him how he has coerced our country – taken us to disastrous wars – subverted our democracy – destroyed our media – and taken our culture into the cutter.
Look at what he has to hear – we are so mean to him. Think of that – people actually talking back to a Jew. His god (the god of the whole universe) will not like that.
p.s. I think his god is going to talk to our congress and fix this free speech internet thing.
On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims.
Proceeding claims do not trump current claims. The world does not recognize you outlandish claims. The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims. Get it – good moral World 14 – thieving JEWS zero.
The stench of what you Jews are doing is odious. The coercion involved in this theft of Palestine is staggering.
We refuse to allow you Jews to take humanity backwards into the tribal hell of thousands of years ago.
Peace — Art
Joshua fought shadows?
No Canaanites in the Levant? No Amalekites?
Jericho was never peopled — it’s cultivated fields drifted down from the sky, miraculously.
No Rahab the Prostitute?
damn.
What next — John Wayne was afraid of horses?
Be careful or I am going to reduce your pork and beans rations by half
Let’s see if I’ve got this right. You’re saying you have a better understanding of how I formed my opinion, than I do?
Makes perfect sense!
Be careful or I am going to reduce your pork and beans rations by half
You know how to hurt a guy.
But it’s alright – Moshe says I need to go on a diet.
Moshe going to eat the extra pork ? He’s not a Good Jew!
The Brith Milah [covenant] is the right to the land. Who is that covenant with, you think?
Ok L.K.,
I’m glad you got a kick out of that. Your mirth was even contagious and I smiled reading it.
some members of the tribe, yes, very much so. But I have no use for others, and I do find their collective influence upon this world as often of dubious merit.
And, for the record, I have noticed a distinct difference between most Jews and most Israelis. They are not interchangeable. Jews are often very pleasant and reasonable and even critical of Zionism. At least insofar as it’s being applied today in Palestine.
But Israelis are often some of the most obnoxious and arrogant assholes you’ll ever meet. Not all of them, by any stretch, but a lot of them for sure. They’ve been encouraged to be that way by their leadership, to think of themselves as exceptional and better than others and, well, God’s chosen people, for whom creation was created, and to whom the gentiles are expected to bow. It’s because of the insufferable arrogance of (some of) these people that I feel so bad for the Pals, because just being in a hotel lobby with them under civil circumstances can test a person’s forbearance, and you can only imagine how cruel and monstrous they must behave towards helpless victims at their mercy.
So no, I wouldn’t want them all to come here, no ****** way. But at the same time, I feel terrible for the Palestinians (and all the other millions of myriad victims of Zionism today) that my government (the Fiend) has been torturing and murdering and displacing by the millions on Israel’s behalf.
oops, I have to go
I’ll try to get back to this later
Happy New Year to you too L.K. !
Here’s to hoping it brings peace and hope to people’s lives. That’s certainly what we Americans voted for!
I never heard of a Brith Milah.
I’ve done a fair amount of work with titles to land, deeds and such, and I have and do possess “rights to land” by deed, registered in my name with the lawful authority in the appropriate jurisdictions. I think a guy named DeSota wrote a book a few years ago about registered rights to land being the basis of a capitalist society.
But I never came across a Brith Milah.
Who conveyed title?
What legitimate body registered the conveyance? The way it works in the jurisdictions I’ve been involved with, if it ain’t registered and sealed by the appropriate authority, it ain’t an enforceable conveyance. If both parties to the conveyance are not represented and participate in an equitable exchange, it ain’t an enforceable conveyance.
You got sealed papers?
Or voices in your head?
come to think of it, in an earlier life I did a little work with folks who heard voices in their heads. Sad cases, those; tormented by neurological processes gone haywire. We helped them as best we could, to live their lives as fully as possible, and not be a danger to others around them.
In reference to Israel’s unprecedented, title to the land of Palestine, reference post 305 in which I explained to jacques sheetes how this bit of slight-of-hand came about. But I don’t blame you conniving people for inventing tall tales near as much as I blame millions of simple-minded Christian fundamentalist who read obvious crap of that description and believe every word due to being taught from birth to death that anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth. It’s enough to shake one’s faith in his own people
It’s nice to see you fellows work yourselves up into a fine lather 🙂
Carroll, don’t work yourself up into a state of fury over everything that gets written in the comments section.
Happy New Year to you.
Based on claims similar to Israel’s, the Boers of South Africa also claimed the Transvaal was theirs by right of Covenant, but General Kirchner soon proved them wrong.
anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth.
Well, the Gospels were written by Jews.
Now, if you are talking about Sam, he makes top flight comments, but he is not infallible.
My New Year recommendation from my JVP friend:
STATE OF TERROR: HOW TERRORISM CREATED MODERN ISRAEL
by Thomas Suarez
“The book is the first comprehensive and structured analysis of the violence and terror employed by the Zionist movement, and later the state of Israel, against the people of Palestine.” Prof. Ilan Pappé
“The less well-known history of the period…from the Balfour Declaration of 1917 through the British Mandate of 1922-1948 has now been thoroughly researched in this new book by Thomas Suárez, working largely from British Government archives. He continues the story until the end of the 1956 war in which Israel, Britain and France attacked Egypt.
“The book also reveals the Zionist willingness to use violence against their Jewish opponents; their conviction that all Jews had an obligation to leave their homelands to go to Palestine; their willingness to stir up anti-semitism to encourage such migration; and their attempts to prevent displaced Jews going anywhere other than Palestine.
“This book is true, and it is important. It proves beyond doubt that Israel is not the perpetual victim of Arab violence that it claims to be, but has been the aggressor throughout the history of the conflict.” David Gerald Fincham
Ahh, good soap makes good lather.
Let’s pull down the (lamp)shades on the old year and look forward to a
Happy New Year for all.
1. Define Western Culture and prove it has remained unchanged over the centuries.
2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. I happen to believe that Obama’s planned intake of Syrian refugees is far too many and most likely the Donald will reverse this. I want smart and talented people to immigrate here, those who can assimilate rapidly, which at minimum entails speaking and writing good English [not Spanish or Spanglish], paying taxes and possessing a deep appreciation of the civic virtues. Beyond that I want the best talents in Classical Literature, History, Technology and the sciences to find this country attractive.
3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm. What is this great concern about a “vanishing phenotype!!” I am blond and blue but I don’t see that as anything special; nothing rationally important in perpetuating that “phenotype”. For G’d’s sake man, do you think humans are entirely the sum of how they look?
4. All the Greek chappies you named there would’ve likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.
5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers? There is a character named Manuel in it; I feel I should summon my inner Manuel when you ask my opinion of “The Frankfurt School,” telling you “I don’t know naathing!” about it. I am not into “schools”, all that much. I like reading writers I consider brilliant in terms of their insights and prose styling, irrespective of any “school of thought” they might be associated with. My current favourites are Richard F.Burton, William Shirer, Smil and of course Chesterton. After I read, I engage in masterly inactivity, and try to form any derivative ideas or conclusions. For the most part, little is allowed past my high standards, explaining the marked paucity of anything useful in my comments.
6. I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.
Happy New Year
> overly spicy oily curry
Hindus taught you everything you know about that….. kind of like algebra.
Ya, there was that famous book “al-jbr” that you like to drone on about….. but it was merely a compilation of other people’s stuff.
Newton published his stuff in Latin. Which is NOT an evidence that the Latin people thought up the ideas therein…..
> similar, for example, to European colonization of North America
The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.
Hebrews do.
Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices…. in Hebrew.
Ever ethnicity is indigenous to somewhere. Hebrews are not indigenous to Khazaria, my friend.
How come you have no heartburn about Arabic settler-colonialism in the Coptic & Maronite homelands? What is so fucking special about these Arabs that they get a free pass from you? Is it just the passage of time? Ok, we will introduce a circumstance wherein the Arabs require many hundreds of years to imagine that they have enough numbers to re-populate Hebron.
> Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that] No we don’t.
So Christianity originated in Khazaria? The Gospels do not report that Jesus entered the actual Temple ?
Who emplaced the stones of the Western Wall?
Where was the Hebrew bible written…. Reykjavik?
> The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims.
The Pakistanis didn’t ask anyone’s permission – much less the former occupying colonial power, for permission to incorporate Balochistan into their country. That all happened post-WWII.
We also will not ask the world’s permission to live in our very heartland.
We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.
However comma, they don’t get to replace the Knesset as Sovereign.
I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for “Palestine”…. but if that’s what it takes, then we’ll have to eventually go there.
This is nonsense. Marginal propaganda items designed to motivate the 10% of compete idiots have nothing to do with the substance of events.
Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.
Hey Karl,
Hmmm…searched for me droning on about algebra in my archives – couldn’t find it.
Imam Biruni (ra) wrote much praise of the Dharmic civilization and any Muslim that doesn’t recognize that the Muslims studied and synthesized the earlier scientific efforts of them and people like the Greeks and even Chinese is a fool:
“Over time, Al-Biruni won the welcome of Hindu scholars. Al-Biruni collected books and studied with these Hindu scholars to become fluent in Sanskrit, discover and translate into Arabic the mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy and other fields of arts as practiced in 11th century India. He was inspired by the arguments offered by Indian scholars who believed earth must be ellipsoid shape, with yet to be discovered continent at earth’s south pole, and earth’s rotation around the sun is the only way to fully explain the difference in daylight hours by latitude, seasons and earth’s relative positions with moon and stars.”
https://selfstudyhistory.com/2015/09/30/al-birunis-india/
And anybody who states that the sons and inheritors of the Persian civilization did not contribute anything of originality to those sciences…well, I have been taking them far too seriously. Let me know when you have something other than schoolyard taunts – otherwise, please don’t waste my time.
Peace.
Hey Sam,
For my part, it’s not what I would ideally prefer, but the specifics of what you have written are more reasonable than practically any other plan I have seen forwarded from the Israeli perspective – I doubt few others would agree to swapping some land from inside the green line. And it doesn’t sound like force population transfer to me. I mean it may even require resettling of some stubborn Jewish settlers, but that has precedence in Gaza.
Peace.
Yup, that right there is textbook fanaticism; mob violence or vigilantism – and over the top punitive measures. It is usually the hallmark of those who have just enough knowledge to make them dangerous, but not enough to bring them in reign.
Thanks for those insights from Burton, I found the reference here:
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/burton/richard/b97p/chapter21.html
From what I can tell, from reading he makes some mistakes in his assessment and has some great insights as well. As far as his opinions on the people, well, it may just be me, but I always take the opinions of Victorian English with massive bags of salt.
Peace.
[So Christianity originated in] Greek speaking urban communities around the shores of the eastern Mediterranean.
[Where was the Hebrew bible written] Mesopotamia.
Nothing you find that is 3000, or 2500 years old has anything to do even with YHWH, let alone with the Talmudic religion that created your ethnic group, in the same way as the Nestorian Church of the East created the modern ethnic group of “Assyrians”.
I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for “Palestine”…. but if that’s what it takes, then we’ll have to eventually go there.
You Jew are a bunch of bloody bastards – now you are going to blow up Jorden.
Your claims are bogus – they are meaningless – they can only be enforced by blood.
If you need to kill to get something – you are wrong – that is how modern grown up humanity sees it.
Once again World 14 – Jew ZERO – such it up!
Peace — Art
Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices…. in Hebrew.
So what — there are historical layers of other peoples also.
This is the year 2017 – you want to fight and kill like you did in the year 17 – the world is not buying it!
We want to respect people and their property – that is our peaceful goal – we respect the rightful needs of the living.
Only the inferior – only the bad – want to kill over past history.
Peace — Art
We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.
No one who is both aware and honest, believes that for a second.
Statements like that, are why people have no real respect for the Jew.
You people live on series of lies. You cannot lie to all the people all the time – it come back to bite you.
Peace — Art
1. Western culture, is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe. The term is applied to European countries and countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration, colonisation, and influence, such as the continents of the Americas and Australasia, whose current demographic majority is of European ethnicity, and is not restricted to the continent of Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
Not sure why you think it needs to remain static?
2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. 3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm.
Got it. There is no cause for alarm.
From where did you pull this response, Sam? I managed to find this response to the Quora question “Was there racism in Ancient Greece?” provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):
“The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were ‘nationalists’ (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.”
https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece
5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers?
When you take a break from watching old episodes of FT, why don’t you try reading an excellent collection of essays edited by William S. Lind, called “Political Correctness:” A Short History of an Ideology
http://static.ow.ly/docs/Political%20Correctnes%20-%20A%20Short%20History%20of%20an%20Idealogy_9Nd.pdf
Or you could quickly peruse the summary version, William Lind’s, The Origins of Political Correctness http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/
and then give us your views on the FS?
6. British humour?
Happy New Year to you too, Sam.
I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.
The only time I feel the pain
Is in the sunshine or the rain
And I don’t feel no hurt at all
Unless you count when teardrops fall
I tell the truth ‘cept when I lie
And it only hurts me when I cry
–Dwight Yoakam
“It is always the best policy to speak the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar.”
―Jerome K. Jerome
There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent’s viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.
The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)
Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.
It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:
Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:
So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.
There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! 🙂
Well said.
Happy New Year my friend!
btw I love listening to Dwight.
This is fluff, which, even if true, no one cares about. However, I was talking about different fluff, the “RETURNING to their ancestral homeland” fluff.
Like I said: cheap propaganda for motivating the stupidest 10% (if that many) of the cannon fodder…
Despite it being GW, I have to pull some text from Dr. Thompson’s recent post and make a correction.
I’ve never seen anyone present this hypothesis before, Sam. Care to provide sources?
I did a quick search using keywords “founding fathers were trained Hebrew scholars” and nothing very relevant came back except for this info:
The Classical Education of the Founding Fathers
https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/
Here’s a very lengthy excerpt:
As you can see, a lot of references to Latin and Greek, but nothing to Hebrew.
To be fair, there is a solitary reference to Hebrew:
Look forward to seeing your sources.
The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh
What crap – yada – yada – yada!
My oh my – those stupid Pilgrims could not spill water out of a boot without the Jews.
First – the “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh” is a total lie. It never happened. The pseudo Jew god of the universe did NOT part the waters for the Jews – he did not kill the first born of the Egyptian people.
Again the Jew distracts us, miss directs us from the bloody ME doings of today with inconsequential yada.
Our concerns are not Pilgrims or ancient Egypt – our problems are the Jews of today.
Peace — Art
Moshe going to eat the extra pork? He’s not a Good Jew!
Moshe has bone too pic with you – mensch kosher Jew that he is – he had to separate the pork out of his beans yesterday – he is not happy.
He also is major pissed, about you US Jews stopping the Boeing deal with Iran. He cannot figure out why you are doing other than displaying pure political power over America. You just do not care who you hurt – do you. There is no military value to this – only the maintenance of raw political power over America’s culture.
How great is your fear, hate, loathing, and arrogance?
Peace — Art
Happy New Year, Art!
Very good video here-
India’s World – Is Syrian civil war coming to an end
[I.E. – Is U.S. hegemony coming to an end? And it’s NOT a civil war.)
I read the condensed version of PC. The ascription to Marxism is a tenuous one at best; Marx, whatever else one might think of him, was a brilliant and sincere intellectual; of course he had no sodding idea how a complex capitalist system should work, in addition to being a G’dless Marxist to boot 🙂 .
The anti-PC movement which I reckoned somewhat overdue until the recent election of the Donald, ought to by itself, as is, make quick work of PC, finds it further necessary to tar the snowflakes and homosexuals with the leperous reputation of Marxism. I call that an overkill. Even as a strategic device it brings a bludgeon to swat a fly. I have a young cousin in one of the Ivies who routinely goes around running his mouth off at the PC events and gatherings with little consequence beyond shrugging off some screeching snowflakes, fruits, and their assorted helpers. He’s been hauled to the headmaster’s office [in a manner of speaking], as it turned out mainly for appearance’s sake, and privately led to believe that the administrators were willing to connive if not actively encourage his behaviour. He’s been attracting followers.
So I sense that parents and teachers are perhaps watching all this with a measure of amusement, not alarm.
I also sense PC is on the way out and all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure “school” is just another academic masturbatory exercise. However I do hope the exit of PC does not swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme where gratuitous slurs become the common standard.
There is something to be said for everyday politeness.
I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh’s book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible.
Have you visited the campuses or looked at the seals of Yale, Columbia etc? Or the Library of Congress in D.C? Go to those places; especially look around at the beautiful fresco-like images on the walls and ceilings and you’ll get an idea.
The GW letter to the synagogue in RI and the Adams letter I’m sure you can google, but they are treated in depth in Katsh’s book. Also look at how Iffen expounded on the Prophet Michah’s words with the precise Biblical reference.
It reads : Urim ve Timum in Hebrew האורים והתומים, under the Latin Lux et Veritas.
Look at the Columbia seal, it has G’d written in Hebrew at the top:
The Library of Congress will provide a wealth of information if you care to delve into it. I should also perhaps refer you to the excellent Kabbalah Centre in DC, which will offer more information than can be digested in a mere post …..:-)
[First – the “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh” is a total lie. ]
Don’t yelp in pain Art, but the 1stt official design for the seal of the United States recommended by Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Jefferson in 1776 is a rendering of the Jews crossing the Red Sea. The motto around the seal reads: “Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God.”
The following link has Jefferson’s prescribed seal which did not finally make it. It also speaks volumes on Jefferson’s relationship with the institution of slavery.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/30912/rejected-designs-great-seal-united-states
Were the FF’s lying?
Hi Robin —- Happy New Year to You (:
That is a great video – truthful – it says that Syria was not a civil war but a war of aggression by US Saudi et al.
It is a good day — the world is coming around to finding it hind feet and standing up against the (Zionist) powers that make war.
Peace — Art
Good video. Syria isn’t a Civil War, it’s a US/Israeli/Saudi controlled “regime change” operation.
Suggested New Years resolution for Donald Trump: Shut down the CIA and 1) save money 2) improve America’s foreign relations.
Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries. They’re not. It’s like watching a foot ball game where one team abides by accepted rules of the game, while the other team modifies the rules to emerge the victor. Except for brief periods of history, it’s always been that way.
Ummm, “the British Mandate” is after the “Zionist madmen” turned up. Try reading your own link, or thinking. Then you can read about the history of Jaffa, which is pretty grim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Ottoman_period
“American missionary Ellen Clare Miller, visiting Jaffa in 1867, reported that the town had a population of “about 5000, 1000 of these being Christians, 800 Jews and the rest Moslems”.
Thanks for the page references, Sam. I just finished reading them and just wanted to follow up on the two quotes I highlighted previously:
With regard to your first quote, when you wrote this I was expecting to read about how some of the key Founding Fathers – i.e., John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington – were trained Hebrew scholars.
Unless I missed it, this is the closest I could find in your source:
While not quite reaching the level of “trained scolars,” the author also did not bother to provide any examples of which Signers of the DI possessed this basic knowledge of Hebrew.
With regard to your second quote, here’s what I read:
Once the full context is provided, it is clear how seriously this proposal to write the Constitution in Hebrew was being contemplated.
Guilty as charged, CP.
So, let me see if I can properly summarize your views about the two key issues I’ve raised:
1. Immigration trends – don’t sweat them, they will not have a dramatic impact on the makeup of western societies
2. Franfurt School influences – don’t sweat it, the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction.
Do I have that about right?
So the message from Sam is, “don’t worry, be happy!”
First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.
Trained Hebrew scholars – not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King’s College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.
But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren’t for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.
I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.
No clue, whatsoever. Very surprised, indeed.
Looked for it, but couldn’t find the supporting evidence for this in your source. Not saying it isn’t there, I just may have missed it in the pages you referenced (50-73).
Not that it bears much of anything new, as I am well aware precious few are capable of unbiased opinion around here; yet since your important contention is that I propose forced transfers, I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim, but more importantly in that he an objective eye – gainsays your stand on the matter:
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1712849
Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.
Are there ten facts that Israeli, Palestinian, American, European, others may agree about?
Much discussion of Israel is speculation and conjecture.
What is needed now is to agree on some facts and stipulate to those.
That prevents stupid rehash of old non-facts or opinions.
Please make your lists.
1
2
3
…
For what it’s worth (not much, as far as I’m concerned), Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that Moses “instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations“.
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl261.php
Whether he arrived at this, as well as his other unsympathetic opinions of “that sect”, as he calls it, by reading Aramaic, we probably will never know.
off the Gazans to the Egyptians.
The Egyptians likely couldn’t be paid to take Gaza.
Proof positive that the Jews are not Western democrats – the Palestinians have no say in this – the Jew is just going to do it.
Peace — Art
Concepts that the FFs understood weren’t for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.
Sure thing — forget the Greeks and two thousand years of Christianity – our for fathers were secret Jew scholars.
The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are knock offs of established volumes of tomes on Jew liberty and freedom. (You know like in Israel.)
What is wrong with you people, you know that whites can’t do intellectual things like that on their own.
Peace — Art
No doubt that would be the same Moses who received the Ten Commandments, or Laws of the Land, from Lord Jethro of Midian and the very same Moses whose childhood history just happens to be “miraculously” almost identical to the childhood history of Sargon the Great of Akkad around a couple of millennia previously.
One has to admit that the “great” bible fraud has been amazingly effective.
Hey Geo,
Do I want that? No. But there are already around 2 million Palestinians living in Jordan. I want what is best for them, I’m really not interested in another Arab nation-state honestly. If they join with Egypt and that turns out better for them in the long run than a state run by corrupt Palestinians (not that Egypt is guaranteed to be better), then I see no problem. Our Ummah absorbed lots of populations in the past (fleeing Circassians in the Levant, fleeing Moors into Morocco, fleeing Albanians/Bosnians into Levant/Turkey), we can do it again.
It is really up to the Palestinian people – it doesn’t feel right asking them to fight anymore when basically no one wants to really help them in that fight. I cannot expect them to keep going this way – I would not be ashamed of them, I would be ashamed of us.
But from a technical perspective, that is not forcing them off their land, it is merely switching the parameters of their sovereign status – and maybe they can get a good deal from Cairo guaranteeing them semi-autonomy along with economic integration. It would be nice having the sizable Egyptian military making sure IDF doesn’t make any more excursions into it.
Peace.
Thanks for putting that on the record, Talha.
Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.
This denialist screed slithered (I am learning a lot from Sam) into view in the 20th century, attempting to deny the idea that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
It failed then and it fails now.
We were.
Sam has pointed you to the documents, the seals, the friezes and the murals.
Read’em and weep.
Care to enumerate the many principles and ideas found in Judaism for us, iffen?
I did a quick google search on this concept and here’s what I found:
Read’em and weep, indeed.
Here’s my second installment:
That’s funny, no sign of that newfangled term “Judeo-Christian” anywhere in this piece.
Keep flailing geo, it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.
Those are Rothschild symbols – wouldn’t you know it – it’s all about Jew MONEY – it’s about the root of all evil.
Jesus made Jews important – the New Testament brings the Old Testament to the world. Unfortunately the OT is baggage. The new social idealism found in the NT displaces the revengeful evil found in the OT.
What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism. Look at Israel – look at its leader – there is not a man on this Earth that is more dishonest. Israel brings endless discord and upheaval to the ME and the world.
The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. They lent war money to rulers on both sides – whose people did the bleeding and then had to pay off the debt. Pure greed and evil.
The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.
You Little Jews are so proud of your Big Jew evil – what fools.
Peace — Art
You must be referring to those Judeo-Christian waters of reality, right iffen?
Questions and observations:
1. Were the Founding Fathers lying about the Exodus? If they were let’s see your evidence and not the tiresome harangue and feigned doltish assertions
2. [Those are Rothschild symbols] : Really? How stupid you sound. E.G. יהוה found on the Columbia seal, is G’d. The Yale symbol: האורים והתומים, Urim Ve Thummim means Light and Truth. So what exactly is your opinion again?
3.[ Jesus made Jews important]: Possibly, and if so shouldn’t you follow his cue?
4. [What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism]: Greed is a human trait, old or new, and Jews are not the only ones afflicted by it. E,g, did you eat the extra pork Moshe passed on?
5. [The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. ] Do you understand the meaning of credit? If so tell me how you’d get on without your credit cards. Now, if you engage in the screed I am quite familiar with [Fed, Fed…] I’ll know that you know exactly nothing.
6. [The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.]
Oh, I spoke too soon. You are clueless. What in your opinion is culture as it pertains to the United States?
If you are searching narrowly for the word “Judeo-Christian” you may not find it (see Gavriel Sivan, The Bible and Civilization).
In truth, even Adams who spoke and wrote so glowingly of Jews found them somewhat exasperating to deal with as individuals; he had hoped they would become Unitarian Christians. However, he was unflinching in his belief that having the people of the Book as a key population group in the U.S. Similarly, Jefferson wanted Jews to be better trained in Classical Englightment.
Speaking of Classical Enlightenment:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
Where do you think the conviction of these rights as given by G’D comes from?
Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.
From Wiki:
The Faiths of the Founding Fathers is a book by historian of American religion David L. Holmes of the College of William & Mary.[1] Holmes approaches the topic of the religion of the founders of the United States by analyzing their public statements and correspondence, the comments left by their contemporaries, and the views, where available, of clergy who knew them.
The main thesis of the book, found on page 134, is that the U.S. Founding Fathers fell into three religious categories:
1.the smallest group, founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called “Deism”. These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.
2.the founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Samuel Adams. Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category.
3.the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.
The well-reviewed[1][dubious – discuss] book is one of the first[citation needed] to question the assertions of secular historians that the founders were all Unitarians or Deists and of evangelical pastors that they were orthodox and sometimes born-again Christians who intended to found a Christian nation. Holmes tries to show that all three of the groups he names were present at every step of the founding of the nation.
A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. “Christian” derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach.[4]
The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, “the books”[1]) is a collection of sacred texts or scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be a product of divine inspiration and a record of the relationship between God and humans.
Many different authors contributed to the Bible. And what is regarded as canonical text differs depending on traditions and groups; a number of Bible canons have evolved, with overlapping and diverging contents.[2] The Christian Old Testament overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The New Testament is a collection of writings by early Christians, believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek. These early Christian Greek writings consist of narratives, letters, and apocalyptic writings.
Group 1, FFs who formally left their Judeo-Christian heritage. Most of them threw out the baby but kept the bathwater of Judeo-Christianity.
Group 2, Speaks for itself, full-on Judeo-Christians.
Group 3, FFs who kept their Judeo-Christian heritage, but discarded some of the miracles and supernaturalism.
I couldn’t have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA. Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who’d want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets. Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel……
Our Fore Fathers did not have the benefit of Darwin – he intellectually put to rest all the BS about a Jew god. The non-existence Jew god is the foundation lie put out by Judaism. From that all the other lies flow.
There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus. Not because that had any intrinsic value on their own. They are still valueless today.
You Jews have no secrets of great value other than how to mislead people.
At that you are the best.
Peace — Art
It may not be Wiki, but it’s still good enough:
Little Jew – who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew – not an American.
Little Jew — you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD – Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values – money for the well off – but NOT for the poor.
We can clearly see why Christianity is superior.
Oh NO – a concession by the Jew – NEVER – perish the thought – kill that idea.
Peace — Art
Here’s some more goodies from non-wiki sources:
[There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus.]
I see: Jesus was travelling with Moshe when the Red Sea parted?
So in addition to calling the Founding Fathers liars, you are now involved in writing a new account of Jesus’ birth, life and death.
I’d say you need to reduce your consumption of pork and beans; that fire in your belly is gas.
Well, I guess this ends this debate.
You found a Jew that supports your position.
Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.
Although he was highly influential, Neusner was criticized by scholars in his field of study.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]
Some were critical of his methodology, and asserted that many of his arguments were circular or attempts to prove “negative assumptions” from a lack of evidence,[5][6][8][10][11] while others concentrated on Neusner’s reading and interpretations of Rabbinic texts, finding that his account was forced and inaccurate.[9][14][15]
Neusner’s view that the Second Commonwealth Pharisees were a sectarian group centered on “table fellowship” and ritual food purity practices, and his lack of interest in wider Jewish values or social issues, has been criticized by E. P. Sanders,[11] Solomon Zeitlin[12] and Hyam Maccoby.[8]
Some scholars questioned Neusner’s grasp of Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic. The most famous and biting criticism came from Neusner’s former teacher, Saul Lieberman, about Neusner’s translation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Lieberman wrote: “…one begins to doubt the credibility of the translator [Neusner]. And indeed after a superficial perusal of the translation, the reader is stunned by [Neusner’s] ignorance of Rabbinic Hebrew, of Aramaic grammar, and above all of the subject matter with which he deals.” He ended his review: “I conclude with a clear conscience: The right place for [Neusner’s] English translation is the waste basket.”[16]
There is no need to google yourself into frenzy for pedantry.
[Little Jew – who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew – not an American.]
Little Moron, I am who I am. Clearly, you are not mentally well. You live in an asylum. It seems you are a pure takfiri- not an American.
[Little Jew — you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD – Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values – money for the well off – but NOT for the poor.
We can clearly see why Christianity is superior. ]
Little Moron – I am definitely giving orders to restrict your rations to include only dog biscuits and a glass of lemonade. It’ll stop your gas and save me money.
[Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.]
LOL. Trial by Jewry?
I think these two sources should just about do it.
Full stop, we have reached agreement.
This bears repeating as it is accurate.
In the 1930’s the Jew-haters were out in force. Christians and Jews of good faith started to use the term in the fight against the Jew-haters.
The term was revived by Evangelicals in their fight against various enemies.
It is a political term that divides.
It is quite simple, two sides, choose.
It has been shown to have no validity and therefore should not be used as a substitute for Western cultural traditions.
I, therefore, choose to use the historically-valid term “Western” over the historically-invalid term “Judeo-Christian.”
Have a squint at this, me ole china and you may come to understand that jews can also be played in a similar fashion to non jews, just at a different point of the cycle. It is divide and rule on a much larger scale.
The Esoteric Agenda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQOfN63qpXs
Defending Israel even when it is clearly in the wrong is not supporting real Judaism at all nor is it of any help to the majority of jews. In all of the so called religions there are those who go along only to exploit it and they serve the betterment of non but themselves.
You allege that Art called the Founding Fathers liars, but show us where! He simply said the Red Sea never parted for Moses, which I took as, the FF were believers in that myth – a myth of all 3 Abrahamic religions, btw. But suppose they didn’t believe. Then they were saying it for the effect on their constituents who did believe, so just polit-speak. Which is why I take all this FF stuff (praising Jews, quoting Bible) with a grain of salt. They were in the business of influence, like our pols today.
Speaking of No Exodus, etc., I hope you read our notable agnostic Joe Webb’s posts at Petras’ “The Coup Against Trump…” Sorry, I can’t remember which comment, imo, most excellent, but great insights throughout.
Who’s really lying? John Brennan, tonight on PBS Newshour, lying his eff’n brains out about the ‘Russian hacking’, but he stopped short at pretending the US hadn’t been ‘involved’ in Syria all along. [Since before the beginning. 🙁 ]
Sorry, skipped a thought: I don’t think Art can get very far with criticizing your God. A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. (Even those with pantheons of multiple gods have one biggie.) So whether it’s the ‘real’ God is irrelevant. And of course there are those who use this mass tendency for political reasons. That’s what made me think of Joe the agnostic.
Hahahaaaa.
Robin, you should really save your energy; is Art your little pet? Since you insist, I’ll oblige:
1. Jefferson (Adams and Madison) proposed the Exodus for the first design of the U.S. seal
2. The Little Moron claimed “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh is a total lie”
3. You, Robin, claim that they did it for political purposes. [I could not disagree more; but that isn’t so important for the argument]. You have no reason, none in the form of a charge brought to that effect by a contemporary of that period, making your accusation entirely the product of a personal speculation.
(1) and (2) together requires at least a strongly transitive conclusion that Little Moron insinuated the FFs were engaged in propagating a lie.
To compound his problems he went to say things like: Jew symbols were used insofar as they were connected to Jesus, Jesus made the Jews gain stature, Hebrew words for Light & Truth, Elohim etc, are Rothschild symbols, the Holocaust is a lie – this last one I mention only in that it seems an obligatory rite of passage for – to use GabrielM’s useful term – Gaylord stormfags, and I have no wish to wade into that cesspool for any “debates”.
One of these assertions led me to credit him further with the unique discovery of Jesus of Nazareth’s contemporaneousness with Moses. I did not go the excessively punitive distance of asking him to expand on the Rothschild symbols; that would be cruel; dog biscuits and lemonade for rations, I considered a just sentence.
He went on to blabber something about FFs not having the benefit of Darwin, Charles D. apparently an autodidact operating entirely from inner (divine?) inspiration. Except he wasn’t. Russell speaking on the subject had said: “The general idea of evolution is very old; it is already to be found in Anaximander [sixth century B.C.]. . . . Descartes [1596-1650], Kant [1724-1804], and Laplace [1749-1827] had advocated a gradual origin for the solar system in place of sudden creation.”
So, defend your co-position as doggedly without substance as you want [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]
[reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]
You must be bored, Sam. I already addressed your allegation about a revisionist twist on Hellenism and new discoveries. You keep trying to paint the ancient Greeks as precursors to the Frankfurt School. Good luck with that.
I’ll just keep reminding you of who was permitted to participate in their Olympic Games by referencing this response to the Quora question “Was there racism in Ancient Greece?” provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):
“The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were ‘nationalists’ (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.”
https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece
The Little Moron claimed
Are there Big Morons to go along with the Littles?
Thanks Robin for this opportunity to address the “Jew god thing.” What god image, or religion, or philosophy people hold is relevant to their lives and their neighbors lives. I believe that all gods, religions, and philosophies, and the cultures that they produce are NOT equal. Different religious cultures produce different outcomes. Some better than others.
I respect people who believe in God – I am one of them.
With that said, god is an idea, god is an image within our psyche. There is no proof one way or the other if there is an actual god of the universe. It is a matter of faith or belief.
The image of god that the Jews hold is preposterous, it is farcical – idea that their “god of the whole universe” favors them over all of humanity is ridicules. So be it – if they want to think that absurdity – that is their problem.
The rub is that they want us to believe it too. They want us to go along with their idiot view of the god of the universe. They actually condemn us, if we do not. They want us to allow them to steal Palestine because their god sanctions it. They want us to ignore their destruction of the ME. Their god is not a nice, fair minded guy – is he?
The image of the Christian god that we hold in our mind is different – Jesus brought use a new image of god, he gave us a new mindset that is hopeful, fair minded, and forgiving. This new mindset has had a positive effect on humanity.
The Jew image of god is clearly inferior to the Christian image of god.
For the betterment of all – we Christians must assert our superior views.
Peace — Art
I think he’ll be able to point fingers at them.
Zeno of Citium (c. 334 – 262 B.C.) and the Stoics he inspired, Alexander of Macedon, Eratosthenes would’ve disagreed.
And yes, I am bored; bad character flaw.
Hellenic supremacists!!! You can spot them a mile away – they’re the guys walking around in togas.
They wouldn’t let poor Rudolph, join in any reindeer games…
Peace.
Just having fun Geo, couldn’t help it.
Wilson got us into WW1 because of blackmail by multimillionaire Samuel Untermeyer. Wilson was a lecher and had a long term affair with the wife of a fellow Princeton prof.
By the time he was president their son was an adult who needed funds to set himself up in business.
Untermeyer met with Wilson and informed Wilson that either Wilson declared war on Germany or the sordid story of the long term adulterous affair would be revealed.
After Wilson declared war Untermeyer rewarded him by paying off the Mother and son.
If you don’t mind me asking, why did you go to the Temple Mount? I gather you are an Israeli Jew.
The Declaration of Independence and the constitution are based on the standard rules of the Masonic lodges.
None of the founders went to Harvard. It was founded as a Protestant seminary for men who wished to become clergy. There was no reason for anyone else to attend Harvard. Some grads who couldn’t get preacher jobs became teachers.
As far as I know the only founder who attended college was Hamilton, Kings college later Columbia Franklin did help found University of Pennsylvania.
I don’t believe the founders wanted to found a country based on Christian principles either.
But why cute a book written by a college professor? Except for STEM subjects every word written or spoken by the college profs since about 1960 has been an anti American, anti White Gramenscian, Alinsky Marxist lie.
Only the incredibly naive believe anything a non STEM college prof says or writes.
Right of conquest my rear end. If it was not for US blood the kikes would have been a bad memory long ago, courtesy of the Third Reich.