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A Death in Herzliya
Mystery Remains About the Death of the Chinese Ambassador
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Du Wei, the Chinese ambassador to Israel. Courtesy of the Chinese Embassy in Israel, via Reuters

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On Sunday morning May 17th, China’s Ambassador to Israel, Du Wei, was found dead in bed inside his official residence in the Tel Aviv upscale suburb of Herzliya. He was 57 years old, married and the father of a son, and had been appointed to his position in February. He was reported to be in good health. His wife and son were not yet in Israel when he died.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry quickly released a report stating that he had died of natural causes, later described by the Chinese Foreign Ministry as “unspecified health problems,” which has been interpreted to probably mean a heart attack or stroke. He had been quarantined for 15 days upon arrival in Israel and his death has not in any way been attributed to the coronavirus.

Israeli police moved quickly to close access to the residence, reported to be standard procedure, and the government in Beijing indicated that it would be sending an investigative team to Tel Aviv to determine what had happened and also to return the body to China. Israel at the time required all travelers entering the country to comply with a mandatory 15 day quarantine, but the Foreign Ministry waived the requirement for the incoming Chinese officials. Du Wei was thereupon removed and returned to China. The Beijing government has not as of this date issued a report indicating its own findings regarding the untimely death.

It is to be presumed that Du in his residence had security. Overseas Embassies differ in their levels of security depending on the threat level in the country where they are located. U.S. Embassies and Consulates overseas have Marine guards in the buildings themselves, supervised by Department of State Security (DS), but an outer perimeter of security outside the building and grounds providing access to the diplomatic protected site is frequently contracted to guards that are hired locally or even by host country police. Du, as a Chinese diplomat in Israel, would not have been particularly threatened but one might reasonably assume that he had Chinese bodyguards as well as local security. So, in theory, no one should have been able to get in to injure or kill him.

Du would have likely been secure in his own residence, but there are a couple of interesting back stories that might suggest otherwise. The ambassador’s death occurred less than a week after a surprise visit to Jerusalem by U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. As one might have expected, most of the visit took place to discuss Israel’s planned annexation of much of the Palestinian West Bank, but Pompeo also took Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to task for Israel’s willingness to enter into commercial agreements with China that involve major infrastructure developments as well as telecommunications. Pompeo also reiterated the increasingly shrill Trump Administration claims that Beijing must somehow be held accountable for “the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide” from the coronavirus because it had not reported the disease when it first surfaced, a contention that the Chinese dispute.

Du was no ordinary diplomat. He was very experienced, having served for thirty years in the Foreign Ministry. He had been posted to Ukraine prior to Israel and he was noted for his aggressiveness in advancing Chinese interests through investments in infrastructure and in co-production projects, seeking to undercut U.S. influence in both countries. China is currently the largest investor in Israeli infrastructure and the activity of Du and his predecessors in Israel has, to say the least, irked the Trump White House. The New York Times describes the tension between the two nominal allies as follows: “China has been investing heavily in Israel in recent years, taking stakes in hundreds of technological start-ups and acquiring a controlling interest in the dairy food-processing company Tnuva. But Israel has antagonized Washington by allowing Chinese companies to make major infrastructure investments in recent years, including in sensitive locations. A company majority-owned by the Chinese government has signed a 25-year lease to run Israel’s commercial seaport in Haifa, a frequent port of call for the United States Navy, beginning in 2021. And near Israel’s Palmachim air force base, a Hong Kong-based company, Hutchison Water International, is a finalist to build a desalination plant that Israel says will be the largest in the world. Trump administration officials have repeatedly warned Israeli officials that intelligence sharing between the two close allies could be impaired or compromised over such investments by China.”

And Pompeo as well as other Trump administration officials also have had a stronger message that they have been delivering to all of Washington’s presumed allies. Pompeo again made clear the warning to Israel: do not install equipment from Huawei – a Chinese telecom conglomerate that operates globally – in developing a new, next-generation 5G telecommunications network. Washington believes that Huawei equipment is used by Chinese intelligence to covertly access mobile phone networks through “backdoors.” Several nations, including Israel, have been warned that if they go ahead with Huawei, the U.S. might not continue sharing sensitive intelligence information.

The White House concern is in part commercial as the U.S. would like to become the lead provider of the new technology. It derives from the belief that 5G will soon serve as the backbone for all critical telecommunications and its faster download speeds mean that it will be the foundation of many new technologies, leaving the U.S. far behind in the race to develop new consumer products while also giving China the ability to both spy and interfere with America’s infrastructure.

In the event, it has been suggested that Netanyahu was polite about the China problem but did not agree to any of the limitations being imposed by Pompeo, which leads directly to the suspicion that the U.S. government, possibly working through a friendly Mossad, sought to send a message to Bibi by killing an ambassador in such a fashion as to suggest a “heart attack.” It might seem extremely unlikely that even the Trump Administration would behave so recklessly, but one might recall the assassination of Iranian Major General Qassim Soleimani in January, carried out by a feckless U.S. national security team heedless of consequences.

And there is yet another tale circulating privately among former intelligence officers, suggesting something quite different. Some believe that Du was preparing to defect to the United States, possibly because he was somehow presented with financial and other inducements that made up an offer too good to refuse. Inducing foreign diplomats to defect was a feature of the Cold War and has also taken place less frequently since that time, though it has always been unusual to involve an ambassador. The defection story, and, one might add that there is no way to confirm it, would mean that Du might have been ordered killed by his own government. Or Israel if it had made the decision to continue to seek Chinese investment and was concerned that Du would spill the beans to Washington on even more sensitive co-productions or projects.

So, the death of Du Wei remains something of a mystery. Beijing is not saying anything, Israel has done what it could to make the story go away and the United States has not bothered to comment at all. The relative silence about the dead ambassador, one might observe, is itself suspicious.

(Republished from American Herald Tribune by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Du Pe says:

    I must say, that last wheeze is some of the lamest last-ditch ass-covering I’ve heard come out of CIA. Has anybody here ever met a Chinese guy at Du’s level? If you’re CIA DO he’s got thirty IQ points on you. And with world-class urbanity and good-humored ribbing he shows you every second how passionately he believes in his nation. You’ve got nothing he wants.

    You almost had his skin on the wall. Yeah right. That’s mindless chaff for JTRIG bots, like calling Ukrainians Russian agents. That nonsense sometimes works on the kind of nitwits who can’t tell Ukrainian names from Russian. Or the kind of nitwits who can’t tell the difference between PRC and American meritocratic standards.

    CIA cowards and their sneaky little weasel war are shit. The PRC just scrapes you off their shoe.

    • Agree: St-Germain
    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @utu
    , @Mikhail
    , @Anonymous
  2. But where were you, Mr. Giraldi, on the day of Ambassador Du’s death?

  3. Ron Unz says:
    @Du Pe

    I must say, that last wheeze is some of the lamest last-ditch ass-covering I’ve heard come out of CIA…You almost had his skin on the wall. Yeah right. That’s mindless chaff for JTRIG bots, like calling Ukrainians Russian agents. That nonsense sometimes works on the kind of nitwits who can’t tell Ukrainian names from Russian. Or the kind of nitwits who can’t tell the difference between PRC and American meritocratic standards.

    Yes, I very much agree with that. I’ve pointed out that the CIA circulation of such a ridiculous cover-story considerably increases the likelihood that my analysis of his death was probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/announcement/what-google-and-facebook-are-hiding/#comment-3921917

    • Agree: Realist
  4. Truth3 says:

    AaronB killed him.

    Du Wei was in an elevator at the Tel Aviv shopping plaza after buying quinine water on level two when AaronB stepped in, and the smell overwhelmed the poor man.

    He hadn’t been “In Country” long enough to get used to that particular odor known as “Israeli Joo Stink”.

    He barely made it back to his residence in time to expire.

  5. anon[299] • Disclaimer says:

    Yeah, if you were concerned about CIA competence (and I’m not, I’m concerned about CIA criminality,) the formulaic nature of their OPSEC and disinfo would be very worrying. Blow up Tianjin and Shandong and Guangxi, blame it on China. Conduct germ warfare on China, blame it on China. Murder a Chinese VIP, blame it on China. Fart in an elevator, give the Chink a dirty look. It’s like Dunning-Kruger tradecraft, or a repetition compulsion. If someone chronicles the OPSEC of Cold War II they’ll have to title it Bodyguard of Tards.

    But this is what happens when you give people six kinds of get-out-of-jail-free cards. They have to push it to show you they can. They wind up not just arbitrary but insane. There’s a mounting disorganization that makes it easy for professionals to take the perp out. You see it in serial murderers too (and Dave McGowan has made a convincing case that that was a domestic CIA strategy of tension, an embodiment of their ethos.) It would be fun to watch, except these Langley assholes got their hooks in us with their coup against Kennedy and Don Gregg’s threat of martial law against the Church and Pike committees. They’re in charge.

  6. Alankg says:

    Yes, have to agree with you. I think the US is getting away with kidnapping and murders because there had been and still is without any punishment or consequences. They will just become bolder.

    • Replies: @Alpi
  7. @Ron Unz

    You “very much agree” with some chinaman calling your writer Giraldi a “coward” a “sneaky little weasel” and “shit” which “the PRC just scrapes off their shoe”?

    • Replies: @Herald
    , @Oscar Peterson
  8. Sean says:

    Pompeo also reiterated the increasingly shrill Trump Administration claims that Beijing must somehow be held accountable for “the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide” from the coronavirus because it had not reported the disease when it first surfaced, a contention that the Chinese dispute.

    They misrepresented how easilly it was transmitted between people.

    It might seem extremely unlikely that even the Trump Administration would behave so recklessly, but one might recall the assassination of Iranian Major General Qassim Soleimani in January, carried out by a feckless U.S. national security team heedless of consequences.

    Iran pretended that never happened (ie took it lying down), did they?

    The relative silence about the dead ambassador, one might observe, is itself suspicious.

    China silently waiting to see what the US will do to China next is more that suspicious, it is even more incredible that the US assassinating a Chinese diplomat over China buying into infrastructure in Israel, when China owns all kinds of such things in the US.

    • Replies: @FB
  9. Trinity says:

    His death wasn’t attributed to the (((coronavirus))) but it could have been because of the (((coronavirus.))) Has anyone seen Ghislane Maxwell lately?

  10. China is currently the largest investor in Israeli infrastructure … “China has been investing heavily in Israel in recent years, taking stakes in hundreds of technological start-ups .. “

    Are you not concerned, Mr. Giraldi, that including info like this might damage the brand you cultivate? Many of your fans are extremely fond of declaring Israel’s impending demise, while few think the Chinese are idiots at playing the long game. OTOH, many of your fans have highly developed immunity against the stress associated with cognitive dissonance.

  11. A123 says:

    Tobacco use in China is common. Cartons of cigarettes are a common gift to business associates, partners, customers, suppliers, etc.

    At 57, Ambassador Wei had statistically significant risk for tobacco related coronary conditions. His death from a heart attack is much more plausible than Scalia being discovered with a pillow on his face.

    PEACE 😷

  12. @Truth3

    He barely made it back to his residence in time to expire.

    So we do tip our waiters and waitresses, or don’t we? Always forget.

  13. Dü Pē says:

    would smashionalist, lucky 7-and-not-8, who are you calling a chinaman? I’m a bignose with a Chink IQ! That’s how I can figure them out, when I go there – and You’ve never been, have you? you can’t speak a word of it, can you? How the fuck would you know?

    I know my chinks and I know my knuckledraggers. Chinks are smarter and more ethical. Spooks are the gang that couldn’t shoot straight and always have been. If they had brains they would get a job on Wall Street and steal at industrial scale.

    • Replies: @would smashionalist
  14. @Dü Pē

    Your iq is evident in your stupid, nasty comments. I just wonder why Unz “very much agrees” with fanatical chinese scum like you trashing one of his best writers.

  15. Dü Pa says:

    Wow , this whole went totally over your head

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  16. Ron Unz says:

    Focusing on the supposed CIA rumors that Ambassador Du was about to defect, let’s consider a few simple points:

    (1) Offhand, I can’t think of any even half-prominent PRC official who’s ever defected, let alone someone with Du’s apparent rank and experience.

    (2) Frankly, I can’t think of any ambassador in the last 100 years who’s defected from any major country.

    (3) As everyone knows perfectly well—except the dishonest American MSM—China is doing extremely well right now, having stamped out the Covid-19 outbreak, while America is doing disastrously badly, with over 100,000 deaths and a wrecked economy:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/reality-disconnect/

    How likely was it that a senior American official would have defected to the USSR in 1989? Perhaps motivated by the tremendous evidence of Soviet success at Chernobyl?

    I pointed to these national trajectories in a major article back in 2012, and I’d certainly stand by my analysis today:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    (4) So if we can conclude that it was *extremely* unlikely that Du was about to defect, the rumors promoted within the American intelligence community are obvious falsehoods. And we should ask ourselves, why they would be circulating such ridiculous theories, and doing that so quickly. An obvious answer presents itself…

  17. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Anyone here seen Fauda? Phil might like. Makes the Israelis look pretty brutal.

    • Replies: @Escher
  18. Escher says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Yup. It’s a very well produced show, and pulls no punches.

    • Replies: @Druid55
  19. Biff says:
    @Ron Unz

    So if we can conclude that it was *extremely* unlikely that Du was about to defect, the rumors promoted within the American intelligence community are obvious falsehoods. And we should ask ourselves, why they would be circulating such ridiculous theories, and doing that so quickly.

    Consider their audience – the American public(true believers in the exceptional nation).
    I’m confident they would buy this story easily.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  20. Anon[120] • Disclaimer says:

    People are being too ethnocentric in their viewpoint, which is admittedly a natural tendency. But it’s most likely the ambassador’s death is due to Chinese political infighting.

    Xi has been acting weird lately. He chose this week for a serious crackdown against Hong Kong, as well as an invasion of India. That’s classic dictator behavior when the guy in charge thinks his grip on the throne is becoming shaky. He lashes out against external enemies and it creates a ‘rally around the leader’ feeling among the common people. He then uses this as an excuse to knock off his rivals for not being supportive enough in times of trouble.

    Xi has to be facing ferocious internal Communist Party criticism for Covid-19. His rivals for the top job now have the perfect excuse to go after him. Xi ignored Covid until it was out of control, which has caused the deaths of thousands at home and abroad and tanked the Chinese economy, maybe for years on end. Xi has a ton of foes among the Chinese business community right now because his antics have wrecked their ability to make money. The plutocrats will never forgive him for this, and they were already at odds with him because they didn’t want to pay taxes.

    In the last generation, China created a new middle class, but the Covid-wrecked economy–plus Trump’s insistence on moving US manufacturing out of Chinese plants–means that middle class is going to become poor again. That disappointment and fury among tens of millions of common Chinese people is enough to wipe out the Communist Party for good. The only reason they’re still in power is because they had been delivering economic prosperity to the long-suffering Chinese people. But not anymore. Xi has also proven to his Party members that he can’t deal with Trump. Now Trump’s going to slap China with new sanctions because he’s furious with China about Covid, and Trump’s starting to root out Chinese government influence in American universities. The Chinese realize their hopes are blowing up because Trump has decided to punish China for Xi’s screwup.

    Trust me, Xi is very uneasy about what’s happening at home.

    I think the ambassador was killed either because he was either one of Xi’s supporters–or foes. It’s very likely the Communist leadership is beginning to choose sides and count supporters. Either way, he was certainly killed by the side who wants to see the other have one less prominent supporter. Don’t forget that China’s Ministry of State Security has spooks in its own embassies, and it would be easy for one of the spies to have killed him.

  21. Another employee had his contract “terminated”. So what? Of all the things to focus on.. I know Asperger and Autism is rampant but jeesh. I can see why those Georgia Guidestones people wanted 500M at most.

    • Replies: @Dave Bowman
  22. FB says: • Website
    @Sean

    The ‘Einstein’ of the Down Syndrome community squeezes out another gem…

    [China] misrepresented how easily [corona] was transmitted between people.

    Which is why they locked down the country…because it was ‘not a big deal’…?

    That’s fucking brilliant Einstein…if you ever grow a brain, you could be a real ‘contender’ in the Special Math Olympiad…

    • Agree: Harold Smith
    • Replies: @Sean
  23. utu says:
    @Du Pe

    “CIA cowards and their sneaky little weasel war are shit. The PRC just scrapes you off their shoe.”

    Tell it to the family of the late ambassador. It won’t be much of consolation. Whether the sneaky weasel war is useless in short or long term only time will tell. The sneaky weasels are the pawns on the chessboard that keep surrounding and provoking the Chinese King to make a careless counter move. And the Chinese King keeps backing off hoping that he will last long enough till the balance of power would be favorable for him to make the counter move. So far he is doing nothing not because he is more moral or wiser and guided by the infinite wisdom of China’s ancient sages but because he is weaker. China was defeated by infinitely more stupid and morally bankrupt Jewish, British and American opium dealers thugs in the 19th century. And Chinese know that whatever the thugs do it works. Chinese know that they are against the same thugs who are equally strong, ruthless and thuggish as in the 19th century. Chinese know that the whole world can be against them as it was in the 19th century. That every country out there will turn into a hyena once China is mortally wounded. If the thugs want to provoke China they will succeed eventually. One can’t not for ever pretend it’s raining when they are spitting in his face. This is the immutable law of provocation of the weaker by the stronger. It always worked and it will work this time if the thugs want it. Perhaps China must go after the thugs personally and what is most precious for the thugs.

    • Replies: @Half Back
  24. @A123

    Nobody trusts you, kike.

  25. Zumbuddi says:

    Rick Wiles has a pretty clear analysis of the box US has put Xi in. Look in on TruNews.com.

    It’s too bad Wiles still reflexively uses Nazi as his model for all that is evil, but he might be educable. If he can have that part of his thinking readjusted, to recognize that zionists used the two wars as a larger scale 9/11 to obliterate an enemy while blaming the enemy then using it for a bottomless kosher piggy bank, he’ll notice that this script was written in the early 1900s by Russian Jews & traitor Jews in hi places in US, — in league with Wilson (who, incidentally caught Spanish Flu in Paris & never fully recovered), FDR (who got sicker & sicker with every visit to Bernard Baruch) , plus Jake’s beloved WASPs.

    Unz’ s theory that US set off biowarfare in China, then it backfired, makes more & more sense. Except maybe the backfire was intended all along. 9/11 planners had no trouble killing Americans to set off Ehud Barak’s GWOT.

    One primary goal is to steal $9 trillion from China to correct US debt. Surely a court in Southern District New York knows where Chinese assets are held & can create a way to garnish them.

    Wiles’s bible thumping is annoying, but so far he’s come closest to understanding the “nest of hornets” that is attacking Xi and forcing his reactions, some of them counterproductive.

    • Agree: Rurik
    • Replies: @utu
    , @ben sampson
  26. The 4chan post in the screen-shot below, a few hours after Du Wei was found dead, came from a poster inside Israel. On 4chan /pol/, your IP address creates a flag image of the country from which you post, unless you manually change the flag to one of the ‘theme’ options which are not national flags. 4chan blocks VPNs, so an Israeli origin is not easy to spoof.

    After the 4chan post below, other Israelis quickly responded in Hebrew. The first Hebrew response was

    >’Delete it you fool’

    then also in Hebrew:

    >Say you lost all your sanity? Missing some screw or something?

    >Wipe it out fast, people entered the prison for life on less

    [MORE]

    Others in Israel noted that it was extremely difficult to post alternate info on or discussion on this incident there, obviously something re Du Wei’s death was being hidden by Israel

    https://www.henrymakow.com/2020/05/murdered-chinese-ambassador-tried-to-defect.html

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @vot tak
    , @Anonymous
    , @Vaterland
  27. AnonCN says:

    in normal time, China will cautiously check and revenge.
    in this special time of ‘waring states’, China will check and revenge even more cautiously

    @Anon, #20 said:
    ‘But it’s most likely the ambassador’s death is due to Chinese political infighting. ‘

    If you know nothing about China, you better STFU on China issues.
    If you know something about China, still insist living in such illusions and lie to yourself and your people. Well, I don’t know what to say. Have a nice dream?

  28. Herald says:
    @would smashionalist

    As you are having difficulty in understanding things so far, I will give you the benefit of doubt and will assume that English has to be your second language, or it will be with a bit more practice.

    • Replies: @would smashionalist
  29. It is strange how bad things happen to prominent Chinese abroad. Some get an all expenses visit to the USA, while others get to die mysterious deaths.

    Silence is golden … or, silence speaks volumes. Hmmm.

  30. jsinton says:

    Really hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys these days. Everybody has the same color grey suit.

  31. miltn says:

    Maybe he threatened Israel with exposure over their virus.

    • Agree: Trinity
  32. Truth3 says:

    Time to start bombing Kikeistan. Really.

    Demand the repayment of all past US aid to that shitty little country. Demand repayment schedule of $1 Billion per day, and interest from original days of aid payments.

    Each day they do not make a payment, B-2 night strike on another Tel Aviv government building.

    If they attempt to fight back, Nuke Dimona.

    • Thanks: Moi
  33. utu says:
    @Zumbuddi

    “Except maybe the backfire was intended all along.” – I have been speculating about it in several comments.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/reality-disconnect/#comment-3910523
    One could think that having seemingly inept, incompetent, confusing and chaotic response to the epidemic was the real objective from the very beginning. The question is why. Why would TPTB want the chaos, suffering and economic destruction? Was it the Plan B that would not be invoked if China was thrown on its knees by the epidemic? Or was it the Plan A from the beginning to make China the pariah nation responsible for the misfortunes visited upon the whole world.

    • Replies: @Herald
  34. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Du Pe

    That’s mindless chaff for JTRIG bots, like calling Ukrainians Russian agents. That nonsense sometimes works on the kind of nitwits who can’t tell Ukrainian names from Russian. Or the kind of nitwits who can’t tell the difference between PRC and American meritocratic standards.

    Not so automatic. In Russia, there’re numerous patriotic Russians with names typically associated as Ukrainian. In Ukraine, there’ve been Kiev regime proponents with names typically associated as Russian.

  35. vot tak says:
    @brabantian

    He had info about Wuhan, the Chinese asked that israel top him. LOL With the replies to make it look genuine. That looks like a bog standard israeli attempt to reinforce zionazi-gay propaganda.

    My guess is the israelis probably killed him, and not because of pompaio, that quisling was there receiving orders, not giving them. His bluster is theater so the pindo colonials can look to be the master. The israelis promote the view they are controlled by the usa to deflect scrutiny away from them as the seat of control.

    Agree with those here about the story Giraldi heard circulating among intelligence wonks being part of psywar and a solid indication that israeloamerican security assassins probably killed the man.

    Ralph McGehee in his book Deadly Deceits describes his time at the “China desk” in the cia. He reviewed the agency’s ops regarding China during the 1950s and early 60s and found the u.s. had zero success penetrating China then and had been the victim of several Chinese counter ops.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  36. @Herald

    what things am I having difficulty understanding, herald?

  37. Sean says:
    @FB

    Hardly a refutation of China having misrepresented to the rest of the world how transmissible between humans the virus was to point to how the Chinese had instantly locked down their whole country.

    One wonders if when their erroneous announcements to the WHO and other international experts of how transmissible between humans the virus was–and thus how likely a worldwide pandemic was–occurred while the Chinese knew more than they were saying to the rest of the world. They went far beyond a lockdown in Wuhan, where there was a complete shutdown and cordoning off of the area. It bespeaks of dissimulation.

    On January 22nd, Xi ordered the Wuhan close down, Five days later and with unmistakable signs of an incipient pandemic around the world, Fuaci started to publicly complain about lack of transparency from China. As far as I can see, China never told the world that there was was sustained human to human transmission of Covid-19. American experts surmised that there was, but no thanks to China.

    As Professor Ian Lipkin a world authority who went to Wuhan and knows the Chinese in the field well from yearly visits there since the SARS epidemic of 2002 (which China admitted lying about) said, we will never know what the Chinese knew about COVID-19 and when they knew it. Nevertheless, their total shutdown and emergency cordoning off of a huge region is very suspicious in view of what China were continuing to tell America through the WHO at the same time.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @FB
    , @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  38. Adûnâi says:

    What if the cause of death is autoerotic asphyxiation? Merely entertaining the ideas here.

    On the topic of Israel’s future, it’s a peculiar one. Will America not cuck itself till the bitter end? How can you be an anal slave to the Jews both internal and external, and then leave them in their desperate hour when they are in the process of throwing you away because you’re too brown and Mexican?

    I thought Christian love to Israel was unconditional. The Anglos are Jewing the Jews! One would expect of them the decency of allowing their being used until they are no longer White.

    Jokes aside, this is boring and stupid. Israel is a dead man. There are 100 million Mizraim to the west, 80 million Turkish Turks in the north, and the median age is around 20. Do the 7 million kikes hope their nukes will stop that horde? They would’ve better accepted the Madagascar offer, or even the Habarovsk okrug. Geopolitically, the Judaeans are toast.

    • Agree: commandor
    • Replies: @commandor
  39. Moi says:
    @Truth3

    The Porcine One obviously made the Israelis an offer they could not refuse. But just why the heck is China doing business the Occupation Nation!

    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  40. @Ron Unz

    Offhand, I can’t think of any even half-prominent PRC official who’s ever defected, let alone someone with Du’s apparent rank and experience.

    This argument can backfire, if one gives it a little thought.

  41. @Ron Unz

    Why do you assume that the CIA”s rumour spreading (if it was the CIA) was defensive rather than offensive, or at least proactive. “Let’s not miss an opportunity. What can we make of this?” is surely just as likely as “someone is going to be pointing the finger at us [and a small group of insiders know it would be true]: let’s at least divide the audience”.

    And yes, defection is prima facie absurd if you overlook just one real possibility. If he wasn’t a reliable supporter of President Xi then maybe he was ripe for knocking off in Xi’s selective anti-corruption drive. And defect – at least by buying real estate in Australia or Canada and relocating family to start with – is what potential losers in anti-corruption drives do. Moreover the Ambassador’s busy promotion of infrastructure projects would both provide him with opportunity to take bribes and his enemies with opportunities to bring him down.

    • Replies: @A123
  42. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @brabantian

    Disinformation, all of it, the original post and the reactions. I call BS.

    Why would the mainstream Israeli elite (who control Shin Bet) take sides in any Sino-American Cold War? The smart play is simply let the chips fall where they may, and make deals with everybody.

    The whole “4Chan servers can’t be spoofed” meme is also false. 4Chan is a civilian operation, and even high-security intelligence and military networks can be hacked.

    American and/or their allies in Isreali intelligence want to plant the offensive Chinese Biological Warfare suggestion in people’s minds.

    The for more overwhelming circumstance points to definitely American/possibly British, French, Israeli offensive Biological Warfare against China.

    Remember! The place: Wuhan – A major transport hub. The time: Chines New Year, when an endless multitude of people would transit through Wuhan and get infected.

    Not ONE but TWO indispensable coincidences, BOTH of which aligned perfectly to most effectively infect all of China?

    Those ain’t no coincidences – those point to deliberate, underhanded acts of war.

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
  43. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @vot tak

    Yup. The whole thing is a standard, transparent attempt at narrative setting by You-Know-Who.

    It’s only problem? Everybody and his dog can see right through it.

  44. Realist says:

    Mystery Remains About the Death of the Chinese Ambassador

    There is a good chance the US ordered it done. The Deep State is horrified at the thought of China being number one.

    • Replies: @ChuckOrloski
  45. Why does no one in the MSM care about this story? Its kinda a big geopolitical one. Unless perhaps he did die of natural causes? No clue, but sometimes the simple answer is the real answer. Now to muse all day over Du Wei having worked for China in another neocon hotspot of the Ukraine? Small world.

  46. A123 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Why do you assume that the CIA”s rumour spreading (if it was the CIA) was defensive rather than offensive, or at least proactive.

    There is no reason to believe the CIA is spreading anything. Crazy 4chan-ers will create conspiracy theories with no outside assistance. “China killed Wei” is the least bad theory, but it is pretty weak.

    A 57 year old smoker died in his bed from smoking related complications. Neither China nor Israel is concerned. Case closed.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Herald
    , @Dave Bowman
  47. Zumbuddi says:
    @Moi

    “why the heck is China doing business the Occupation Nation!”

    Why do bank robbers rob banks?

    But seriously: Israel knows very well that OBOR is real & is the future; USA is in decline — the Jewel Wasp has extracted almost all useful value from Cockroach USA– which has educated at least 3 generations of Jewish offspring, at the cost of neglecting & debasing America’s own, Just as happened in Germany 1870 – 1933.

    China is on ascent, Israel is actually more naturally part of OBOR than of any Atlantic oriented prosperity zone.

    If Trump Pompeo were really smart Pompeo would have said, Enjoy your Chinese water. USA is out of here. You know how Trump tore up Iran deal? $38billion MOU with Israel: same thing.
    (They are not smart, mainly because they have divided loyalties, and in addition, they’re the worst combination of blackmailable, venal, and hubristic.)

    Instead of challenging China, USA would do well to close as many bases as reasonable, invest heavily in USA homeland people and industry, make friends with continental neighbors as well as trade relations with OBOR.

    And jettison the Jew el Wasp before another generation of Americans is cockroached.

    • Replies: @Fatima Manoubia
  48. utu says:

    Conspiracies after China ambassador death comes amid US-China tensions
    https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/conspiracies-after-china-ambassador-death-comes-amid-us-china-tensions-628315

    The allegations that Pompeo had someone to do with the death seem to be the most common.

    “If you remember the Pompeo visit, you can connect the dots,” or “Pompeo visit was successful I guess.”

    China said to backtrack on sending team to probe death of ambassador in Israel
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/china-said-to-backtrack-on-sending-team-to-probe-death-of-ambassador-in-israel/

    Body of Chinese Ambassador Who Died in Israel Returned Home
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/body-of-chinese-ambassador-who-died-in-israel-returned-home-1.8860021

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  49. Has any investigative journalist explored this: Vice Adm. Scott Stearney, who led U.S. Naval Forces Central Command and the 5th Fleet, was found dead at his Bahrain home. Death ruled as a suicide.??????
    It was as if the day after his death, clouds of major military conflict appeared in the Persian Gulf. Oh well, who knows!!!!!! No point in complaining about things you can’t change.

  50. Herald says:
    @utu

    Why would TPTB want the chaos, suffering and economic destruction? Was it the Plan B that would not be invoked if China was thrown on its knees by the epidemic? Or was it the Plan A from the beginning to make China the pariah nation responsible for the misfortunes visited upon the whole world.

    Plan A or Plan B would probably have been acceptable and with either, the eugenicist insider Bill Gates would get to sell his depopulating vaccine across the empire. They must so love it when a plan comes together.

  51. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:

    This is awful, especially when the kind and considerate Chinese, were willing to build all over Palestine for the Israeli’s. Wow they were going to help Israel with better telecommunications, which would undoubtedly help deter more terrorists.

  52. @utu

    If Pompeo had to have the Chinese diplomat killed in order to bring Israel to heel, that is a sign of weakness, not strength.
    Why else would Times of Israel and Haaretz make that “conspiracy theory” widely known?

    USA is actually fighting both China AND Israel. As has been the case since WWI, USA is too Jew-addled to know who its enemy is.

    All things considered, Israel is in a better position than US; they have less to lose, better geostrategic position.

    • Replies: @utu
  53. Czarlazar says:
    @Ron Unz

    Ron: agree with your assessment, other than theorizing the killing was intended to send a message (warning) to Netanyahu to scale back the China relationship. BN has numerous levers to pull that allows Israel to resist pressure from the US and Zionist power in America increases by the day. He’s not only the most powerful politician in Israel but arguably in the US as well. However, in the spirit of co-operation with his most important benefactor, I’m sure he could’ve been persuaded to facilitate the US hit in a businesslike fashion without having it stick to him. Plausible deniability and all. The odds of the Mossad acting on Pompeo and Trump’s behalf, behind Netanyahu’s back, on a hit of this magnitude seems very far-fetched.

  54. Ron Unz says:

    Actually, I might as well repeat a comment I’d made on a different thread. Not long after our kidnapping of Huawei’s CFO while she was changing planes in Canada, one of Anatoly Karlin’s commenters noted some other *extremely* suspicious events that occurred almost simultaneously:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/connecting-the-dots-in-the-huawei-kidnapping/

    A great explanation of the Huawei Kidnapping, written by a comrade in the Deng Gang Central discord

    There may be a lot more than meets the eye in Canada’s shock arrest, at US behest, of Huawei’s CFO and heir apparent Meng Wanzhou (link below).
    Chinese sources have assembled the following facts:
    • April 2017: A director of Chinese tech giant Huawei personally escorted famed Shanghai-born physicist Zhang Shoucheng from the latter’s hotel in Shenzhen. Jackson & Wood Professor of Physics at Stanford University, Zhang was in town to attend an IT summit.
    • Sept. 2018: Prof. Zhang receives a European physics award, one of his many honors. His work in quantum physics is expected to revolutionize the global semiconductor industry.
    Yang Zhenning, the first Chinese scientist to receive the Nobel Physics Prize (1957), had predicted that Zhang would be the next one.
    • Dec. 1, 2018: Prof. Zhang and Meng Wanzhou are expected to attend a dinner in Argentina, where the G20 summit is being held.
    • Dec. 1, 2018: On her way there, Meng is arrested in transit by the Canadian government.
    • Dec. 1, 2018: Prof. Zhang falls to his death from a building in the US, allegedly a suicide. Said to be suffering from depression, he was 55.
    • Dec. 1, 2018: A nighttime fire breaks out at a factory of Holland’s ASML, the world’s leading manufacturer of extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography technology. EUV is crucial to the production of the next generation of semi-conductors, which US and Chinese tech firms as well as Korea’s Samsung are competing to be first to bring to market. Leading Chinese semiconductor producer SMIC is known to have ordered EUV technology worth US$120 million from ASML, for scheduled delivery early in 2019.
    After the fire, ASML announced that it expected delays in shipments of its products, notably early 2019.

    If UMC walks away from the DRAM technology development program, it will be another setback for China’s ambitions to create a self-reliant semiconductor industry. The $5.6 billion Fujian Jinhua project in the southern Chinese city of Jinjiang was previously set to enter trial production by the end of 2018, which would mark the country’s first memory chip output. But construction was suspended because of the U.S. ban in November.

    Obviously, the more the number of highly suspicious events totally ignored by the MSM, the higher the likelihood that they probably have a sinister explanation…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  55. Gast says:

    Yeah, Philip Giraldi is “Ex-Cia”, for sure.

    “Unz Review” seems to be a grab bag of disinformation agents. There seems to be no coherent world view they represent, some are even contradicting Ron Unz on vital issues. He is pro-immigration (recte: pro-White-genocide), but some writers are allowed to pretend to be against immigration.

    The common denominator is a vague anti-establishment pretense, but a shilling for the government line (recte: the narrative of the jewish power structure) on the really vital issues (like the Corona hoax right now).

    So goyim, enjoy it to speculate a bit about “rumors” (recte; disinformation) spread by Giraldi’s “ex”-colleagues.

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  56. @Realist

    A death to America.

    I roll back to the time of Phil’s article, America annexed by Israel. Below is Mondoweiss article which delivers additional proof.

    https://mondoweiss.net/2020/05/congress-is-poised-to-pass-far-reaching-israeli-wish-list/

    Reckon Netanyahu has considerable wiggle room, and he can counterattack Pompeo’s orders to scuttle Israel’s deals with China.

    Perhaps China has interest in appeasing both the ZUS and Israel, and shall issue a report that Ambassador Du died of natural causes? 🤔 Nonetheless, Trumpstein, Netanyahu, and Xi Jinping know that the Pentagon has listed China as “Most Wanted.”

    The world may never know what really happened to the late-Ambassador Du. However, The Land of Bill & Money’s endless wish list🤑 will always be fulfilled by the Knesset Congress West.

    No doubt “America is annexed by Israel,” and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo knows this is true. He realizes the limits as to what he tells Netanyahu to do, and of course, he knows whatever happened to Du can happen to him.

    Post scriptum: The surreal commenter, Realist, opined:
    ‘The Deep State is horrified at the thought of China being number one.” 🙄 Fyi, am a member of America’s vast & pillowed Shallow State, and am aware that the “Deep State” guarantees Israel’s being “number one.”

  57. utu says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Think about it as a kind of a prank between gangsters. Netanyahu would complain that he can’t withdraw from some deals with China and bah blah blah and Pompeo would tell him: don’t worry about it, one morning you will wake up with a perfect excuse. You will be able to blame it all on us. Chinese will understand. Just wait few days.

  58. “How likely was it that a senior American official would have defected to the USSR in 1989? Perhaps motivated by the tremendous evidence of Soviet success at Chernobyl?”

    This is what makes Unzilla such an existential threat to the CIA impunity regime. He covers the same territory as PCR, the Big Picture, with inductive logic and common sense that’s been brainwashed out of the general public. Like PCR, he’s master of the obvious. But he writes with this little grin. It’s highly subversive.

    The USG is a global laughingstock. When the US subject population stops taking this regime seriously, it’s over. I don’t mean simpering Capitol Steps satire, I mean recognizing all the pointless bullshit we put up with from this parasitic pariah state.

    When Russians stopped taking the USSR seriously, they took endless pleasure in wrecking it. You went in as a foreigner and people would fall over themselves to commit espionage and treason: “Hey, huh huh, wanna see some OB?” With Manning, Snowden, Schulte, Weed, Tice, Kiriakou, and a host of others, America is reaching that breakpoint. CIA hysteria over Wikileaks reflects it but it will not help.

    Remember when John Wayne Gacy was stinking up the neighborhood with a crawlspace full of decaying fuckboy corpses, and he was frantically hosing it down to no avail? That’s where Gina and her spokesmodel Pompeo are at. It’s time to shitcan the CIA regime and get your rights back.

  59. Considering how Pompeo, Trump & Co. do Israel’s bidding all the time, it makes little sense to think that they’re suddenly willing to assassinate a major country’s ambassador IN ISRAEL to intimidate Israel. If you want to intimidate Israel (and since when have we ever stood up to Israeli demands, let alone tried to intimidate them?), killing a Chinese guy doesn’t accomplish that.

    • Agree: Trinity, Robjil, DaveE, Czarlazar
    • Replies: @DaveE
  60. Biff says:
    @Sean

    Fuaci started to publicly complain about lack of transparency from China.

    Who gives a fuck what that prick says.

    China never told the world that there was was sustained human to human transmission of Covid-19.

    The rest of the world is not China’s responsibility(that’s the job of volunteers in Washington).

    American experts surmised that there was, but no thanks to China.

    Did the Americans get off their ass and do something in a timely manor?

  61. I am waiting with considerable interest to see how right wing sites like Unz.com are going to pretend that a white policeman kneeling on a black man’s neck until he died is justified. I’m sure Unz will find some way.

    • Replies: @Gast
    , @Poco
  62. @Anon

    This is so wrong.

    The CCP got rid of term limits for xi when the Asian pivot happened. They saw the writing on the wall.

    This is one aspect where the CCP and xi got right. It is one of the reasons why the Chinese govt responded to the pandemic so well.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  63. Gast says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    And I am waiting for anti-white trolls like you to detect an obvious psy-op ,which our jewish overlords have staged to start a race war in order to deflect from the Corona mega hoax (inteded to roll out a new form of tyranny).

  64. Maybe he choked on a bat.

    • LOL: ivan
  65. @Anon

    If Xi or others in China wanted Du Wei dead, why bother sending him all the way to Israel to kill him and create an international incident? Just recall him to China and do it.

    Why should we trust you, that you know so much about Xi?

  66. Trinity says:

    ANYONE who doesn’t think that Israel is looking to dump JEW-SA for China is a sucker. They always say the wife or husband is the last one to know. (((They))) have just about bled America white with (((their))) wars, (((coronavirus))) etc. PREDICTION: Our bestest best friend in the whole wide world is looking to stab America in the back. IF it happens, I can say I told you so.

  67. FB says: • Website
    @Sean

    China never told the world that there was was sustained human to human transmission of Covid-19…

    Look fool…if the Chinese lock up sixty million people in their homes, then what does that say to anyone of normal intelligence…?

    It says this thing spreads like fucking wildfire…

    You would have to have a head full of rocks to make the leap of pretzel logic you are making here…totally retarded…as usual from you…

    • Replies: @Sean
  68. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Don’t worry about that Anon’s post. We see that sort of thing in both the MSM, alternative media like Youtube, and sites like this one.

    Notice how the post was a grab-bag of “all the things I WISH were actually true of the world, America and China”? That whole “China is falling, America is bringing manufacturing back, Trump’s on the case, we’re rising” story?

    Watch out for that line of “reasoning”, recognize it when you see it. Because it isn’t just one individual’s thoughts and opinions. There is an organizing a will behind posts like that.

    It is part of a “narrative”, a sort of brainwashing of the public, and its intended effect is to sway people’s thoughts.

    People reflexively like to get behind whatever point of view is in vogue, of only they knew what to think. Well , the Anon’s post serves the purpose of telling them what to think, in what is seemingly a plausible interpretation of reality. It cheers on the “rising” America, shines a light on China’s “weakness”, and asserts that the hero of the moment, Trump, knows what he’s doing.

    To that end, wishful thinking is heaped upon unfounded assertion (refer back to that Anon’s post), all to raise the morale of the brainwashed (Empire’s) “true believers” and to sow doubt in the minds of objective, fair-minded observers on this site.

    Pretty funny.

  69. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Nevertheless, their total shutdown and emergency cordoning off of a huge region is very suspicious in view of what China were continuing to tell America through the WHO at the same time

    1st point: China wasn’t telling anything to anybody “via” the WHO.

    The WHO, including Americans, were themselves on the ground and on site, and could see for themselves without China telling them anything. When the Chinese knew something, they knew it as well, and so did everyone else.

    Care to explain how Taiwan and South Korea knew anything about Wuhan, except from the WHO? Such that South Korea and Taiwan were able to take effective measures to mitigate the virus’ contagion and lethality?

    Or did China supply TWO different sets of information – one set of truthful info to be supplied by the WHO to South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan exclusively; – and what . . . a completely separate, false set of info to be supplied by the WHO specifically to the United States? Preposterous.

    2nd point: China was very generous with the WHO in terms of open access, in spite of an early and reasonable suspicion of being the direct victims of Biological Weaponry. That assessment of being under attack was most likely the cause of the massive clamp-down in Hubei province.

    But that lock-down was, or ought to have been, more than enough indication of the seriousness of the pandemic.

    For the U.S. to ignore the massice Hubei lock-down was akin to you seeing your friend nervously glancing out the window while loading his gun, and blaming him for not saying the specific words “I . . . am . . . concerned”. Gee, you think?

    Only an absolute idiot would fail to note the blatantly obvious.

    • Agree: Harold Smith
    • Thanks: showmethereal
    • Replies: @FB
  70. @Gast

    Gast, as the Unz Review provides a plethora of view points from writers all over the political spectrum, would it not be a contradiction in terms for this wonderful site to provide a “coherent world view?”

    And, based on the amount of commenters here who often vehemently disagree with him, I hardly think that Mr. Unz is offended by those who “contradict him on vital issues.”

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  71. Zumbuddi says:
    @Trinity

    “Bled white.”

    Funny

  72. Rurik says:

    Trump administration officials have repeatedly warned Israeli officials that intelligence sharing between the two close allies could be impaired or compromised over such investments by China.”

    …Israel, have been warned that if they go ahead with Huawei, the U.S. might not continue sharing sensitive intelligence information.

    does it even enter into the realm of the possible.. that there are elements in the ZUS ‘intelligence services that are not compromised 100% by Israel?

    No. There isn’t. Just look at Jeffery Epstein for confirmation of that.

    So the question becomes ‘what is going on?

    Are there elements within Big Tech (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, FB, et al), who’re concerned about Chinese hegemony into ‘their’ realm? (“back doors’ into everyone’s smart devices and computers, AI used to monitor and manipulate people’s attitudes and behavior, etc..).

    I suspect that’s what’s going on, because we all know the federal government and its assorted whores in the ‘IC would never cross its ((master)) under any circumstances, so something else must be going on, if there’s some kind of ‘rift’ between Israel and its abased servant.

    One would think that Israel would be very much intertwined with Big Tech, and that they’d all see eye to eye. But then comes China, and it complicates things, or so it seems..

    circulating privately among former intelligence officers, suggesting something quite different. Some believe that Du was preparing to defect to the United States,

    I would agree with others who call this a preposterous absurdity.

    Such a man would have been vetted, and more to the point, there is the ethno-nationalist element, that a lot of people pretend doesn’t exist, (but it does ; )

    For an ethnic Chinese man, (highly trusted and exalted to a position of great power and prestige in order to serve the interests of his nation and people) to betray his nation of fellow ethic Chinese, so he could live in decadence in the sewer of the universally hated and despised ZUS today, would be impossible. Absolutely impossible.

    He’d no doubt rather be dead, than to have virtually every Chinese man and woman on the planet wanting to cut his balls off and then kill him. To go down in history as the worst traitor- not just to China- but the world has ever known. His name would be synonymous with betrayal, for generations and longer.

    So something else is going on here.

    Big Tech vs. Israel vs. China.

    All vying for absolute ascendency/primacy/hegemony- in this nascent new era of Absolute Orwellian Total Surveillance/Power.

    And the daggers are out.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  73. @follyofwar

    Hell, the hoaxers called him a sell out. Then the ban happened. That was the biggest middle finger that Ron didn’t even need to personally deliver.

  74. @A123

    Peace to you too, my misdirecting zionist friend.

    • Replies: @A123
  75. FB says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Only an absolute idiot would fail to note the blatantly obvious.

    That would be Sean…😅

  76. @Anonymous

    Absolutely true, and it coincides with what UNZ Ron published recently. The coincidences are too many to disregard.
    https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741
    Fauci is a power hungry whore and needs his neck stretched with Pompeo tied to his ankels.

    • Replies: @Herald
  77. Sean says:
    @FB

    Look fool…if the Chinese lock up sixty million people in their homes, then what does that say to anyone of normal intelligence…?

    It was not a game of charades. If the Chinese imprisoned sixty million people and totally shut down a city, while at the same time continuing to say there was no danger of an international pandemic, then what one makes of it depends whether one thinks the Chinese can be trusted. Let us review the record:-

    [MORE]

    12th January The WHO announces its guidance on travel advice stating “The [Chinese] government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person”.

    20th January 2020 Chinese announced person to person transmission. But they said that had not been any person to person transmission of SARS-CoV2 in Wuhan that was outside a hospital (thus COVID-19 was less transmissible that the 2002 SARS epidemic in China, which had not caused epidemics in the West.

    21st January:2020, Chinese say they think the possibility of sustained human-to-human transmission remained low.

    22nd January: Wuhan total close-down, whichgoes far beyond anything subsequently done anywhere.

    25th January: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention chief Redfield stated “the immediate risk of this new virus to the American public is believed to be low” and he told senators that the CDC had all of the funds it needed.

    26th January: Fauci said of the virus: “it’s a very, very low risk to the United States”.

    January 29: Peter Navarro sent Trump a memo advocating an immediate ban on air travel between China and the US.

    China never told the world that there was was sustained human to human transmission of Covid-19, and hence American did not find out there was from China, which had more information that anyone about COVID-19, that there was a global pandemic coming out of China. And not only that: the Chinese say they have destroyed the original samples. Everyone must draw their own conclusions as to whether China discharged its duties the rest of the world as best they could or whether their policy was one of perfidy and calumny against the countries they victimised. Often called a fool, Navarro long ago drew his own conclusions about Chinese malevolence and duplicity, which is why he was right about the virus while the wise diplomats, biologists and doctors were wrong. Folly to be wise.

    This is the cultural Zionist standpoint a la Ahad Ha’am in which a man who takes precipitous action is necessary for conquest (Trump is such a man). Navarro’s stock is now sky high. Now if he were to suddenly die I might be suspicious.

    • Agree: ivan
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anonymous
    , @ivan
  78. A123 says:
    @Rev. Spooner

    Peace to you too, my misdirecting zionist friend.

    How does TRUTH = misdirection, o’ most obvious paid Iranian shill friend?

    If Mossad had set up Ambassador Wei, he would have been found deceased in bed with 3 hookers and a leather wearing goat.

    Dying asleep, in bed surrounded by his own guards is a fairly obvious case of ‘natural causes’. Only Chinese nationals had access and they had no motive.

    PEACE 😷

  79. Herald says:
    @A123

    Sure he did. If that’s the line you’re bosses have got you peddling then there’s likely some dirty work to be hidden.

  80. Herald says:
    @Rev. Spooner

    Fauci is a power hungry whore and needs his neck stretched with Pompeo tied to his ankels.

    Agreed, but that would be just a good start.

  81. @would smashionalist

    I think we can take “du pe” at his word when he says he’s not Chinese. I have never encountered any Chinese who would respond in that way even on the internet.

    Interestingly, his three comments here (including one from the presumably mistyped “du pa”) are his first three at UR–at least with this name.

    It’s obvious he had a deep-seated loathing for Phil Giraldi, which suggests that he has been here before and is now commenting under another name. He’s an aggressive, foul-mouthed little creature. He spews a lot of “I’ve seen the world and you haven’t” nonsense. And he understands that ridicule, as Saul Alinsky observed, is the best rhetorical weapon in dealing with adversaries. He also disingenuously suggests, in true pilpul style, that Phil Giraldi was endorsing one or more of the conspiracy theories that he outlined in his piece, which he did not actually do.

    And he says idiosyncratically:

    “I’m a bignose with a Chink IQ!”

    Now what ethnic profile would match with the above behavior pattern?

    Truth3 (comment 4) seems to have some specific suspicion about who “du pe” might be (if I’m reading him correctly), and I must say, I find it quite plausible.

  82. Anonymous[323] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    On January 22nd, Xi ordered the Wuhan close down, Five days later and with unmistakable signs of an incipient pandemic around the world, Fuaci started to publicly complain about lack of transparency from China. As far as I can see, China never told the world that there was was sustained human to human transmission of Covid-19. American experts surmised that there was, but no thanks to China.

    China confirmed on January 20th that there was human to human transmission. You keep obscuring this fact for some reason, even though it’s been pointed out to you in several threads by now.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  83. AaronB says:
    @Sean

    21st January:2020, Chinese say they think the possibility of sustained human-to-human transmission remained low.

    22nd January: Wuhan total close-down, whichgoes far beyond anything subsequently done anywhere.

    The very next day.

    Ron Unz writing on China’s is just a massive propaganda misdirection

  84. Anonymous[323] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    26th January: “China says virus can spread before symptoms show — calling into question US strategy to contain virus”

    https://www.cnn.com/asia/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-hnk-intl-01-26-20/h_2a84ba79568235481f2a32f98865aef7

    “China’s health minister Ma Xiaowei had some very bad news Sunday about the Wuhan coronavirus: He said people can spread it before they have symptoms.

    A veteran adviser for a US health agency called the news a “game changer.”

    “When I heard this, I thought, ‘oh dear, this is worse than we anticipated.’ It means the infection is much more contagious than we originally thought,” said Dr. William Schaffner, a longtime adviser to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Schaffner added that this new piece of information called into question the current US practices for containing the virus so it doesn’t spread beyond the three cases that have already appeared in Washington state, California, and Illinois.

    Schaffner, an infectious disease expert at Vanderbilt University Medical Center said that if Ma is correct, “we’re going to have to re-evaluate our strategy, that’s for sure.””

  85. @Anonymous

    He wouldn’t be a Zionist bot if he didn’t ignore facts.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Sean
  86. Sean says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Sustained transmission between people is what would make the Wuhan disease a class A pathogen rather than a class B one like SARS in 2002. The Chinese specifically and consistently said from the 12th January 2020 through channels with the World Health Organisation department that exists for the purpose of preventing global epidemics there was no clear evidence of sustained person to person transmission. The last time China gave this this incorrect information was on 22nd of January. Perhaps the reason South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan have suffered relatively little, and the US much more, is because the US trusted China and its neighbours did not.

    The US would have moved Heaven and Earth to suffer as little as Japan. The question is why America did not. On January 29th 202 Peter Navarro sent Trump a memo advocating an immediate ban on air travel between China and the US. That Navarro’s advice was not taken indicates what?

    The WHO, including Americans, were themselves on the ground and on site, and could see for themselves without China telling them anything. When the Chinese knew something, they [the US] knew it as well, and so did everyone else

    Did the WHO between 12-22 January pass on a message to the whole wide world from China that the Wuhan disease had shown no signs of sustained transmissibility or not? China seemed happy to issue official statements telling everyone the Wuhan disease was not highly transmissible between people, but when China found out that was not true it just left everyone else to find out for themselves it seems.

    Did China institute a draconian shutdown and condoning off of Wuhan while assuming the Americans in China would understand the significance and call the White House to inform Trump that a deadly epidemic heading his way? It seems to me your contention is it was redundant for the government of China to formally tell the government of the USA–through the diplomatic channels which exist for just such a purpose–about the Chinese discovery that COVID-19 was actually a class A infectious pathogen not a class B one and thus certain to cause a pandemic in America unless there were emergency measures taken.

    • Replies: @Fatima Manoubia
  87. Alpi says:
    @Alankg

    They will become bolder unless you pull an airplane takedown with someone like Ayatollah Mike in it, a la Iranian intelligence. Then, they will back off. That is the only way to deal with a bully.

    Chinese have a non confrontational government and like to see a win-win relationship with any country, including US. But once pushed to a corner, they will strike back and make no mistake about it. It will hurt.

  88. DaveE says:
    @Admiral Assbar

    If you want to intimidate Israel (and since when have we ever stood up to Israeli demands, let alone tried to intimidate them?), killing a Chinese guy doesn’t accomplish that.

    My gawd, what is going on on here? The death happened in ISRAEL fer cryin’ out loud.

    Let’s just blame the English for every crime that happens in Australia, while we’re at it.

  89. Dupe says:

    Oscar Peterson, thanks for Comment 81 helping furious dimbulb wouldsmationalist, because *Someone Is Wrong On The Internet* and it’s got to be stopped!!!!1 As for your ruminations on this commenter’s crucial all-important ethnicity, the buzzer goes EAAH! You go home with Pat Sajac’s lamest prize and no head from Vanna.

    Pro tip – you can figure things out easier if you are able to think in something other than ad hominem terms! Once in a million times or so, or more, people’s cognition is not wholly determined by their ethnic background. By contrast, you really can’t escape your class consciousness …well, some people can but you can’t.

    Grandmaster clue: who is smarter than Chinks and Yids put together?

    • Replies: @would smashionalist
  90. @Rurik

    I don’t disagree except that you omit one possibility that is not wholly fanciful. A senior Chinese Communist who was on the wrong side of factional disputes we know little of might fear purging for real or confected “corruption”. There are plenty of Chinese who have made anticipatory escapes from Xi’s anti-corruption drives. I can see some of the apartments they buy from my back garden.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Rurik
  91. Czarlazar says:
    @Trinity

    Israel doesn’t have to choose one over the other. Like any efficient lamprey or large mosquito, it sucks as much blood as it can from whatever available host. It’d be a stretch for a crafty parasite to give up $4 billion+ in free money annually, of the world’s reserve currency no less, to switch to a newer and less reliable source. Better to suck both dry and enjoy.

  92. @Ron Unz

    Can you spell out the logic of that last paragraph, maybe by adding additional postulates? Could the logical explanation be that the media , including MSM, ignores millions of suspicious events of many kinds and that one explanation is feckless incompetence, another perceived boosting of circulation etc.?

    On MSM and it’s relative importance to the American Pravda theme may I again draw attention to the role of video documentaries. That comment is inspired by seeing on my TV screen an ad for the “Who killed Jeffrey Epstein?” which will be shown next week.

  93. Jiminy says:

    Clearly the US population was let down by the incompetency of its political base. Poor decisions were made maybe with ulterior motives behind them. But also don’t forget the story of the WHO and it’s decision to not enforce the pandemic alert sooner. Some of the reasoning behind the delayed decision may have been the stock market activity around payouts being made if the pandemic was not declared before mid April. If declared before mid April, then a lot of people would have lost a lot of money.

  94. Ron Unz says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I don’t disagree except that you omit one possibility that is not wholly fanciful. A senior Chinese Communist who was on the wrong side of factional disputes we know little of might fear purging for real or confected “corruption”. There are plenty of Chinese who have made anticipatory escapes from Xi’s anti-corruption drives. I can see some of the apartments they buy from my back garden.

    There’s a tendency for people to come up with the most outlandish explanations to deflect the obvious reality of current events, which they realize they would find personally distressing…

    So we assassinate a top Iranian leader and just a few weeks later Iran’s political elites, including 10% of their entire parliament, become infected with a mysterious, dangerous disease, quite a number of them soon dying as a consequence. Pure coincidence!

    America is an increasingly bitter trade conflict with China, and during 2019 a mysterious viral illness destroys 40% of China’s pigs, their country’s primary meat source. Coincidence!

    The trade conflict intensifies, and near the end of 2019, a mysterious deadly viral illness strikes the key transit center of Wuhan just before hundreds of millions of Chinese travel for Lunar New Year, potentially spreading the disease to the entire country. The outbreak of the disease occurs just after 300 American military officers visit the city. Pure coincidence!

    In November 2019, Defense Intelligence Agency alerts our top government officials and allies that a “cataclysmic” disease outbreak is occurring in Wuhan…over a month before the outbreak had grown large enough that anyone in the Chinese government had become aware of it. Precognition!

    Mike Pompeo visits Israel, denounces China, and demands that economic ties with the PRC be broken. Netanyahu refuses. Two days later, the Chinese ambassador is found dead, of unknown causes. Another coincidence!

    This whole thing reminds me of a mid-60s incident involving LBJ, who prior to becoming president had become one of the wealthiest men in America due to gigantic corruption in Texas. A government official involved in those corruption schemes was being prosecuted and under enormous pressure to avoid prison by implicating his confederates. He was found dead, shot seven times. The local Texas judge ruled it an “apparent suicide,” and it was reported as such in all the American newspapers, including the Washington Post.

  95. @Zumbuddi

    If Trump Pompeo were really smart Pompeo would have said, Enjoy your Chinese water. USA is out of here. You know how Trump tore up Iran deal? $38billion MOU with Israel: same thing.

    Yeah…but, then, who would be paying for Trump´s campaign…and probably Pompeo´s for Senate?

    And you forget the family part, Kushner, who is almost nephew of Bibi….Trump has interest in Israel…may be not at odds with those of China….

  96. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    There are plenty of Chinese who have made anticipatory escapes from Xi’s anti-corruption drives

    people fleeing poverty and other societal ailments to come live in the West, are hardly defecting.

    They still retain their affection for their homelands and their fellow Chinese (or Mexicans, or whomever the case may be), and that is a virtue.

    But if Sergey Lavrov were to be offered a trillion dollars, and all the perks and luxuries and fulfillments of his every whim, for himself and his family for generations, to defect to America, he would still not take it.

    Even if he was in a ‘fractional dispute’ with Putin or the Russian government. He’d rather live out his life as a Russian in good standing with his countrymen, in a modest lifestyle, than have all the whores and yachts that money could buy, here in the good ol’ ZUS of A.

    Because a man like that doesn’t toss his soul away on the cheap. And live with the well-deserved hatred of his countrymen, for a trillion dollars- or anything on this earth that money can buy.

    For some men and women, in some cultures, there are some things more important than money and perks. But perhaps for many Americans and others, such a mentality is impossible to comprehend.

    • Agree: Parfois1
  97. @Anon

    Trump said he’s going to move US manufacturing home. Checkmate, chinks!

    • Replies: @WV Guerrilla
    , @Malla
  98. A123 says:
    @Ron Unz

    There’s a tendency for people to come up with the most outlandish explanations to deflect the obvious reality of current events, which they realize they would find personally distressing…

    Someone distressed by the fact that WUHAN-19 is from China could come up with outlandish explanations to deflect from that obvious reality?

    Mike Pompeo visits Israel, denounces China, and demands that economic ties with the PRC be broken. Netanyahu refuses. Two days later, the Chinese ambassador is found dead, of unknown causes. Another coincidence!

    U.S. foreign operators are simultaneously:

    — Almost omnipotent — They can launch an overseas assassination plot, with little to no planning time, and achieve the perfect locked room murder mystery.
    — Totally incompetent — They leave obvious fingerprints by using known U.S. nationals while commuting an Act of War (releasing a bio-WMD).

    Either of the conspiracy theories taken alone would be a hard sell. The two taken together are so incompatible as to be cognitively disharmonious.
    _____

    God’s ineffable plan for testing humanity includes things that cannot be anticipated. There is no physical evidence of human conspiracy behind WUHAN-19 or Wei’s death.

    PEACE 😷

  99. Druid55 says:
    @Escher

    Yup, a show full of scumbag jew fascist/bolsheviks doing their usual shite!

  100. China is currently the largest investor in Israeli infrastructure…

    But…, but…, but… what’s down with the billions of $$$ ‘we’ send to Occupied Palestine every year…?

  101. @Zumbuddi

    “Unz’ s theory that US set off biowarfare in China, then it backfired, makes more & more sense. Except maybe the backfire was intended all along. 9/11 planners had no trouble killing Americans…”

    aahhhh! first time I have seen this from anyone..that American Corona-19 was not a backfire but deliberate. I agree 100%..and I am surprised that Unz did not see this angle..or maybe he did but deliberately went elsewhere..otherwise he would have lost Facebook/Google earlier

  102. @Sean

    But….the US was warned by any means available….

    How otherwise the US would evacuate his consulate in Wuhan at such speed…?

    Trump did not close the country because for him the economy goes first, at the same time to be able to bailout already decaying corporations before the pandemic, like Boeing and GM, before the economic crisis would be obvious for any Joe Six Pack when it would be more difficult to justify, and finally to allow his rich friends sell all out before everything lose its value at WS for anybody else, like pension funds and other citizens´investments.

    Also, in the middle of the uncontrolled chaos created by the Coronavirus, spread a thick veil over the dangerous ( for the US citizens and alleged US Democracy ) intertwining amongst the FED and BlackRock….withe US debt spiralling out of control…if more was needed….

    • Agree: showmethereal
  103. R.C says:
    @Ron Unz

    Well, have to make my first comment here.

    I would personally not rule out the possibility that he was sacrificed in the internal Chinese power struggle as much likely as he was taken out by the US empire.

    As a Chinese lived in multiple Western countries and also knew a bit about my home country. I have been following the contents in Unz for a while. There are definitely a lot of real gems here compare to the garbage mainstream Western media spout out. And really appreciate the positive views of my country and my people of the authors from here. However, it can get very biased from a Western dissident right’s point of view when it comes to China by viewing it through a colored lens. As the grass is always greener on the other side. If the Anglo-Zionist empire is so bad (which it is), then the enemy of the empire must be right. This could really distort the judgment when indeed not every aspect of the enemies of the A-Z empire should be praised for. And quite the contrary, many of these nations have a lot of their own problems.

    For one thing, China is a nation home to 1.4 billion high IQ population with 4000-5000 (depending on if you count from the Western or the Chinese academic sources) of civilized history and was historically subjected to great survival pressure on its population. Thus, traditionally it has been a very ruthless and cutthroat competitive environment inside China with sometimes almost brutal and purely Darwinian selection going on even up until today. That’s why given the same development level, East Asian society has always been the most stressful in terms of living and working. Just imagine living in a society filled with average IQ ~108 population numbered more than a billion with limited resources available and has a culture that emphasizes hard working, the competition is unparalleled in terms of ruthlessness.

    In terms of high level politics, we are dealing with individuals risen through the ranks from either meritocracy or being in the clique from the class of red aristocracy families (太子党,红二代,红三代)(which Xi is also part of), whose ancestors also got there by rising above the competition. Unless you are super competitive, clever, cunning and good with political fightings, you will not even get close to the top office under such an extreme environment. You’d be wiped out long ago. That’s why the stories like Jeffery Epstein or the corruption case from the Clinton family sounded like shocking and a big deal for the Westerners. But for people who have experienced the Chinese business and political games first hand, really, it will not even raise people’s eyebrows as worse and much more brutal things happen on a quite regular basis. And Westeners who conduct those political conspiracies are often times quite evil in their intentions and clumsy on how they do it at the same time. Many Chinese I knew in Chinese politics or businesses even laughed and described those Western big scandals as quite “可爱”(cute) and “天真”(Naive). Like a villain who uses very clumsy tactics.

    The Chinese history is the history of relentless and brutal infighting coupled swinging between a Darwinian/Malthusian world and a Hobbesian world. Many (actually most if not all) senior level political families in China have bought political insurance to their careers in China by building up a back up overseas and out their money and family there to shield them away from the ruthless internal politics of China. As the Chinese saying goes “狡兔三窟” (a cunning hare has three hideouts). It is simply not the degenerate Westen lifestyle they are opting for, rather their own career and safety inside the country China by doing so.

    Regarding the relationship between Israel and China. For the above reasons, despite being quite Jew-aware amongst both average and powerful Chinese I know. Genuinely it is less of concern for China regarding the tribe as some kind of a threat. Just out of the sheer character of those two people, what worked for them to be successful might not apply a bit in China. Instead in China, it is the powerful White nations with its raw population, science, technology and creativity that China admires. As China itself has a long and intricate history of political strategies and tactics for example the much cherished work of “三十六计” (36 strategies) and “孙子兵法” (Art of War). With a worldwide Ashkenazi population of ~ 10 million and an average IQ of 115, it does not have much of a cognitive advantage over China. As the smart fraction of Chinese with IQ above 120 is multiple times greater than the whole combined population of the world’s Jewry (no matter what denomination they might fall under). Added on top of that, the ethnocentrism and being low trust society will not leave much room (if at all) for the stunts and tactics that made the tribe so successful as it is today in the West. Of course, that is also the reason why the tribe is quite frightened at the rate China is rising and eating away its share of the pie and might even eat the tribe itself if let unchecked.

    On a national level, Israel and China had quite constructive relations. Many American technologies China acquired are actually through Israel (along with Taiwan and Pakistan as other two big sources). China is the biggest investor in Israeli infrastructure with thousands of Chinese workers in Israel and one of the top investor countries that pop up the Israeli tech sector. And Chinese state companies bought and owned two biggest ports of Israel for a nation that relies heavily on sea import and export. And all those companies from China have very heavy Chinese military and intelligence connections. Prominent US Zionists from Las Vegas, Hollywood and Wallstreet rely quite heavily on getting on the good side with China to make money (yeah makes sense right for the character of tribe). As an example, the majority of the wealth of the prominent Netanyahu donor Sheldon Adelson are made in his casinos in Macau and Singapore. If China desires, he could be a broke man (if not dead) in a snap of a finger. Meanwhile, China and Russia have been quietly building up Iran that could deal massive damage (if not outright mutual destruction) to the state of Israel to increase the bargaining chips on the table dealing with the tribe and the tribe and its US golem also pointing weapons at China and Russia. This balance of power seems to be rapidly disrupted at the moment. And Israel as a state is also clever enough to place itself in between a declining Atlantic world order and a rising Eurasian world order as it is also what geopolitically makes the most sense for them.

    So, from my point of view, I would be very cautious and not rule out either possibility that he was killed in a internal Chinese power struggle or an external power struggle between the rising China and the declining Anglo-Jewish empire. Especially at such a sensitive time when Pompeo was visiting Israel. It could be that he was trying to reach out to the US as his political allies in China loses power for self protection or he was just one of another sacrificial lambs in the US-China power struggle.

  104. @Ron Unz

    But how can you possibly know that no one in the Chinese government was aware of the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan before the USA’s November DIA alert (and that they remained ignorant of the outbreak for a month after it)? Because the Chinese government said so? Why take their word for it? You aren’t privy to the internal communications of the people who govern china. They have a huge incentive to lie about when they became aware of the outbreak because it shifts blame from themselves for failing to contain it before it became a worldwide pandemic, onto the USA for being so insanely desperate to contain a rising china as to attack it with the virus which ironically blows right back into the USA and much of the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  105. @Rurik

    You have not but to witness what kind of people defect for the US…..Their illuminated faces say it all..

    Guaido & company and that guy with all the face of an idiot from HK…

    The same with the people who defect for Great Britain…btw…Skripal, Litvinenko, and so on…most of the times people involved in foul play at home…not precisely distinguished by what you so much value in this forum…. IQ…

    Most of the people who defect, does it for money they can not achieve at home, defecting by ideological reasons at a time when neoliberal capitalism is about to collapse makes no sense at all….for anybody…less for a Chinese….if it had been when the USSR collapsed… it would had a pass…but now…oh, please, who would wish going into the very eye of the hurricane of the collapsing capitalism…with the more than secure fact that he will never be payed his reward…because there will not be anything left…after the oligarchs and their secuaces, like Pompeo, steal it all…

    • Replies: @Poco
  106. @R.C

    There has been zero deaths in any internal CCP power struggle that I am aware of since 1980 in China.

    Please provide sources besides your personal deductions.

    Would love to read if you have them.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @R.C
    , @Ron Unz
  107. Half Back says:
    @utu

    All of what you say is negated by Nuclear weapons. Different time 19th century. See how far you go trying to sail up the Yangtze river today in a Patrol boat today.

    Wiki, Following the end of World War II, the US Yangtze Patrol resumed its duties in 1945, but on a more limited basis with fewer ships during the Chinese Civil War. When the Chinese Communist forces eventually occupied the Yangtze River valley in 1949, the United States Navy permanently ceased operations and disbanded the Yangtze Patrol.

    That’s the reason no nuclear power today will simply be invaded or completely defeated. The last action of any such country (sad to say) will be destroy ‘their’ enemies.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  108. @Rurik

    All very interesting but I seem to have missed the point if it is intended as a reply to my comment which doesn’t entirely agree with it.

  109. @Dupe

    “who is smarter than chinks and yids put together?”

    Certainly not you. If you were half as smart as you want others to believe you are, you’d know that you have no gift for comedy and stop trying to be funny.

  110. R.C. makes some interesting points but the picture he’s painting seems like a combination of Orientalism and projection. In China, compared to the US, preferment is more meritocratic and genuinely competitive. It helps to be a princeling, of course, almost as much as in America (they’re enthralled with Ivanka, who’s the classic Chinese governor’s kid.)

    But in America if you’re a loser, you starve and die in the street, or you go broke and the court puts you on a $150/month food budget. China respects its peoples’ economic rights, so the stakes are not as high. Chinese are proud of lifting people out of poverty; Americans are proud that they’re not impoverished losers like the people they step over on the street, because the US regime has pitted everybody against everybody else so we don’t hang the bankers and the spooks. There’s just no comparison between the cohesion of the two societies. I live in a nation of assholes and pricks. Chinese don’t.

  111. Parfois1 says:
    @Anon

    Trust me, Xi is very uneasy about what’s happening at home.

    “Trust me”!!! What a joker! But he admits his incredibility by pleading the mercy to be trusted.

  112. @GazaPlanet

    I hope that’s a joke. Trump cannot do anything unless told/allowed to do it. Anyone who believes we are living in a democracy deserves all the socialist policies we’re being force fed! Trump is just a puppet while Bibi is the master!

    • Agree: GazaPlanet
  113. Poco says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    It isn’t a right wing site. Some authors are right wing. Some are of the left. I realize that to a leftist any right wing perspective allowed the light of day renders this a right wing site. But that isn’t the case.
    By the way, it wasn’t justified, nor can it be.
    Also, there are plenty of rightists who detest the cops. Most cops are thugs who prop up leftist governments like the ones in Minneapolis and Minnesota as a whole.

  114. R.C says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Look, as Chinese politics is very intransparent and Chinese political and business culture does not rely on formal documents as much as Western politics so many events are extremely badly documented or formally reported at best. You should be thankful that in the West as bad as the censorship and digital police state is these days, at least some information regarding the scandals in politics do get out in the public while in China, most of them just get buried in the dust. But in China’s case, at least the political elites are rather native to the land and have no agenda to commit national suicide. So choose which one is the lesser of the two evil. And the scope and complexity of Chinese political landscape is rather immense and needs lots of time to find all sources for a whole picture. Most of the slightly relevant sources are all in Chinese. It is a tremendous effort. If I do get time sometimes to compile the sources and maybe translate some of them. I will be sure post them.

  115. Wally says:
    @Ron Unz

    said:
    “China is doing extremely well right now, having stamped out the Covid-19 outbreak, while America is doing disastrously badly, with over 100,000 deaths and a wrecked economy”

    LOL
    As if China (“it’s not transferable”) reports the truth, as if the death rate numbers for the US are real.

    [MORE]

    Cooking the Books on COVID-19 Deaths: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/05/cooking_the_books_on_covid19_deaths.html
    CDC Confirms Remarkably Low Death Rate – Media Chooses To Ignore COVID-19 Realities: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/cdc-confirms-remarkably-low-death-rate-media-chooses-ignore-covid-19-realities
    How Many People Die Each Day?: https://principia-scientific.org/how-many-people-die-each-day/
    “Nearly 150,000 people die per day worldwide, based on the latest comprehensive research published in 2017. Which diseases are the most deadly, and how many lives do they take per day?”
    see:
    https://i2.wp.com/principia-scientific.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2-1.jpg?resize=550%2C356&ssl=1

    • Agree: Trinity
  116. Pontius says:
    @Trinity

    Agreed.

    I have thought this for years.

    The only thing I >think< I know about all of this is that it is going to get so big and so complex it is going to spin out of everyone's control. I can't see war not happening at some point.

  117. My only comment is that the Mossad have a long history of helping people die in their sleep. Victor Ostrovsky documented it. A Mossad team got caught on camera whilst doing it to a Hamas leader in the UAE. Does the CIA have a lot of experience at this type of clandestine assassination? There modus operandi has been “extraordinary rendition” and blatant murder of late. And could the CIA do ANYTHING in Israel without the Mossad (or Shin Bet, etc) knowing all about it before it happens?

  118. Poco says:
    @Fatima Manoubia

    The US isn’t capitalist, it’s some kind of zombie, corporate monopolist, socialist bureaucratic kakistocracy. That’s what is collapsing. Other than that, I agree, why would he want to defect into that?

  119. @Ron Unz

    This deserves and may get at least three replies from me. As ranging shots let me ask about R.C. who purports to give an informed view which lends some support to my speculation that you seem to think outlandish (unlike the idea that; in 15 months as head of the CIA, Pompeo would have acquired Mossad connections he could rely on to embarrass their own government!) and motivated by emotions stronger than the need to justify the confident assertions that you have originated.

    Is R.C. actually ethnic Chinese as he seems to say? Despite his preamble I looked up his comment history and find that it goes back a long way and was first focussed on Putin and Russia. Despite that I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a Brit who had made a modest fortune, mostly in Hong Kong, and retired back to the UK or near.

    For a second ranging shot I question your saying LBJ was “one of the wealthiest men in America”.
    Cf. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_by_net_worth?wprov=sfla1

    What light does Robert Caro’s biography throw on this – and the criminal sources of his wealth?

    • Replies: @R.C
  120. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Du Pe

    You’re too clever by half tossing around jargon like you’re a player and for that reason undoubtedly not half as smart as you think you are. But, I must say, even spotting you thirty points in IQ, and despite your sort’s fame for world-class urbanity and good-humored ribbing, you’re probably an insufferable gasbag wherever you’re from.

  121. joun says:
    @Ron Unz

    Similarly, the global scourge of isis terrorists attacks dried up as soon as Obama was out of office. Trump gets into office, Pompeo does a stint @ CIA, lining up the troops, gets to State and all hell breaks loose with China. As a test, when Trump is out perhaps isis returns and China calms?

  122. R.C says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I believe “R.C.” Is the user name of another established commenter on Unz. And “R.C” was the username I chose and for some reason it went through and published under the other name. Since it is only my very first comment on Unz. Maybe I should choose another alias to avoid future confusions.

  123. AaronB says:
    @R.C

    Wait, you mean that just because America is bad, China isn’t paradise? That just because something is opposed to America it isn’t necessarily a shining paragon of virtue?

    I think you have just blown to smithereens the entire world view of 99% of commenters here including Ron.

    That is quite literally the heuristic that shapes their world view – like rebelling children who are still defined by what they rebel against, everything against America must be good.

    That’s the intellectual level of this site. Its fun – don’t try and introduce nuance and sophistication please. We likes our pig-sty just fine as it is.

  124. Ron Unz says:
    @R.C

    As an example, the majority of the wealth of the prominent Netanyahu donor Sheldon Adelson are made in his casinos in Macau and Singapore. If China desires, he could be a broke man (if not dead) in a snap of a finger.

    Sure, I made exactly that same point back in 2018 when we kidnapped the Huawei CFO, and have been more than a little surprised that China hasn’t decided to play that card, especially since Adelson is very old and once his gone, his unique influence will disappear:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/averting-world-conflict-with-china/

    The Chinese history is the history of relentless and brutal infighting coupled swinging between a Darwinian/Malthusian world and a Hobbesian world.

    While I wouldn’t rank myself as an academic specialist, I have been closely following China for over 40 years, and if you haven’t already done so, you might want to take a look at some of my articles to evaluate the quality of my own analysis:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinese-melamine-and-american-vioxx-a-comparison/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    As it happens from the late 1970s onward, I’d always been telling people that I thought there was a solid chance that China’s development trajectory would be pretty much along the lines of what it actually became, something that they greatly doubted for at least a couple of decades. As an example, back in 1986 I think I helped persuade The Economist to add an Asia Section:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/far-east-2/

    My guess is that the depth of your knowledge of China and Chinese society vastly exceeds my own. But I also suspect that you may be less than fully aware of the extent to which your view of the West and America is shaped by propaganda, much of it of high quality but less than fully realistic. If you start reading some of my American Pravda articles, I think you’ll be very surprised at what you discover. My most recent long piece on the Covid-19 outbreak might be a reasonable place to start:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/

    • Replies: @R.C
  125. denk says:
    @R.C

    1] Who’s the motive to send a message to both China

    [get the fuck outta MY turf]

    and Israel

    [The next time it’d be YOUR head]

    2] Who benefits ?

    3] Who’s the means ?

    4] Who’s a long and proven track record of wrecking Chinese investments worldwide and sabotaging China’s foreign relations, by FF, regime change, outright assasinations ??

    All points to we know who !

    Coincidentally,
    Somebody also floats the same ‘faction rivalry’ theory for the CV19 caper.

    Theoretically, anything is possible of course.
    But speaking realistically, the probability of your ‘faction’ scenario is even lower than that of ‘natural death’, IOW, practically ZERO.

    P.S.
    All I can say now is….
    YOu do know a bit of Chinese words.

  126. @Dü Pa

    Does Du Pa mean Tiny Duck in Mandarin?

  127. @R.C

    If Ron can’t keep up with fixing all the little software problems what hope is there for ordinary morttals. I think my plan for a webzine will be deferred again…..

    Before your present persona becomes obscured would you care to tell us a bit about yourself so we know where you are coming from and with what authority (and presumably biases!). I say that as one who believes you have much to contribute judging by your first comment. (Specifically, how do you rate my imaginative hypothetical that a senior CCP person could be in danger because of actual corruption or because, if he was of the wrong faction, corruption charges could be manufactured to bring him down. And what would he do to protect himself and his family (a) if he had $10 million plus out of China; (b) if he didn’t?)

    • Replies: @R.C
  128. Ron Unz says:
    @would smashionalist

    But how can you possibly know that no one in the Chinese government was aware of the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan before the USA’s November DIA alert (and that they remained ignorant of the outbreak for a month after it)? Because the Chinese government said so?

    You might want to read my long article on the subject, or at least my recent piece that contains the crucial portions of that issue:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/

    https://www.unz.com/announcement/what-google-and-facebook-are-hiding/

    Given that the Trump Administration has made the timing of the outbreak and China’s reaction a central issue, there have been very long and detailed articles in the NYT, WSJ, and AP, partly based on confidential Chinese documents. All of them agree that the Chinese authorities only became aware of the strange new illness around late December, and concluded that it was caused by a contagious new virus in early/mid January. I have seen no evidence to contradict that established timeline.

    Anyway, given the highly-contagious nature of Covid-19, which has an R0 of around 3, the later size of the Wuhan outbreak gives us a pretty good sense of when it began, probably around early November. With just a handful of illnesses in a city of 11M and no deaths, obviously no one was aware of it until its exponential growth became obvious in late December.

    So based upon all available evidence, US Intelligence reported a “cataclysmic” disease outbreak in Wuhan right around the time it actually began, but more than a month before it had became large enough for any Chinese officials to become aware of it.

  129. @R.C

    Post the original Chinese source please. After 3 years, my Mandarin is 60% usable.

  130. @R.C

    If this is your first participation in the comments section. Please ask Ron to change your handle to a different one. As RC is not new

  131. AnonCN says:

    @R.C.
    ‘The Chinese history is the history of relentless and brutal infighting coupled swinging between a Darwinian/Malthusian world and a Hobbesian world. ‘

    Depend on how you interpret the different effects of relentless and brutal infightings, they looks ugly between the elites, between the grassroot.
    But the most important relationship is what it is like between the elite and the grassroot.
    Relentless and brutal infightings between the elites and grassroot means that grassroot is capable fighting against the elites, which in return brings more dignity to the grassroot and blend the nation into one unity, brings a sense to the elite that they are fundamentally the same with the grassroot.

    You may laugh about the infight levels between those white elites. Why you give a shit?
    I laugh about their infight levels between their elite and grassroot.

    • Replies: @R.C
    , @Wizard of Oz
  132. Malla says:
    @Anon

    Xi has been acting weird lately. He chose this week for a serious crackdown against Hong Kong, as well as an invasion of India. That’s classic dictator behavior when the guy in charge thinks his grip on the throne is becoming shaky.

    The Chinese elites RARELY use India as the boogeyman to deflect people’s attention and anger, the Chinese elites use Japan for that. Japan (and sometimes the USA) is China’s go to boogeyman, not India, Japan has been used as a boogeyman by the Chinese elites even before WW2. President Xi would have used Japan not India if he felt his power was shaky. Especially at this time when Japanese PM Abe is funding companies leaving China. According to the Chinese elites & people, India does not even qualify to be a worthy enemy.
    China on the other hand is India’s go to boogeyman. When things do not look good, the Indians elites magically bring out the evul Chinese in the “free” media to deflect the attention & anger of Indian people and to beat us up into a nationalist frenzy. Of course Pakistan and India use each other for the same. Indian elites sometimes create some false flag event and blame it on Pakistan or in some cases just ask the Pakistanis to send in some terrorists to create some small event, sacrificing a few Indian soldiers if needed and rile up the screwed Indian population.
    But Indian elites desperately want China to consider India as a worthy enemy so that its status can be elevated above being just Pakistan’s rival. A kind of promotion in prestige.

    • Replies: @Talha
  133. Malla says:
    @GazaPlanet

    Trump said he’s going to move US manufacturing home.

    Many in his administration want to move it to India but most Western/Japanese/Korean manufacturing firms, not surprisingly prefer Vietnam, Thailand and Indonesia to India. Who wants to deal with low productive but greedy labour, greedy confused government, crappy infrastructure, goon raj and extreme corruption? South East Asia is not perfect either but much more preferable.
    Besides Chinese manufacturing companies are themselves investing and setting up factories in South East Asia and South Asia (India, Bangladesh, Pakistan) and thus those goods coming in from “acceptable countries” into the good ol US of A are actually from companies that are Chinese owned.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  134. @Ron Unz

    What do you think of this lower calculated IFR?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @geokat62
  135. Ben_C says:

    Seeing as how this guy’s wife and kids weren’t with him in Israel at the time he died, among other things, he was obviously about to defect to the US and/or “Israel” at any second… Despite all other facts and evidence surrounding this “issue”, the Communist Party of China is clearly responsible.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  136. Ron Unz says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    What do you think of this lower calculated IFR?

    Well, I’ve seen quite a bit of “chatter” about that supposed CDC estimate, but haven’t bothered looking into it. Breitbart and those other rightwing publications are totally trashy, and I wouldn’t believe a word they ever said about anything. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Trump people pressured the CDC into publishing something that could be “interpreted” that way.

    All the solid US and international data I’ve seen indicates that the IFR is somewhere between 0.5% and 1%, and Anatoly Karlin recently summarized some of the evidence:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-ifr-1-percent/

    Maybe someone competent and honest will dig through the CDC report to find out why their numbers are supposedly much lower. Perhaps they incorporated the fraudulent data from those Stanford people, who were supposedly funded by some business group.

    • Replies: @04398436986
  137. R.C says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Well, i think i would stick to my current persona for some time and see if there is actually a need for change because of too many unnecessary confusions. Besides, i saw that the name was already fixed to ‘R.C’ at the moment.

    Regarding your questions, i was born and raised in mainland China and have spent time living and working in many different Western countries. And i do have quite a lot of close contacts who would be classified as being part of system of the ‘CCP’. That should be enough info without having to run the danger of self doxing.

    So for your hypothesis, i would say that theoretically it is possible. As the others’ corruptions are always good leverage for any political rivals to use. That we usually call ‘把柄'(means a handle you can hold as an advantage against people). And during anti corruption campaign we also saw it happening many times. But the anti corruption campaign itself is a very complex issue that i will not go into too much details here. I would also not rule out the equally likely scenario which it is a CIA wetwork from the empire. Do not underestimate the viciousness of the enemy from the US empire and do not overstate their stupidity.

    I would say $ 10 million is really not that much at the central government level. These days since government services in China has been largely digitized recently, which means traceable, and more difficult if impossible for many direct bribes to happen. So, many have already moved to establish shell entities overseas and conduct transactions completely under the radar overseas. And it is likely those money are not even inside the country to begin with. But before digitization, most high level people with connections use ‘白手套’ (white hand gloves. Analogy of someone/entity that do the dirty work without getting hands dirty) or ‘防火墙’ (firewall), so it can be really difficult to trace many of those corruption scandals.

    This out flowing of capital actually caused quite a lot of problems for us, as it brings down our foreign reserve and the hard earned money of the Chinese went to foreign banks overseas. And these people are as much enemies of China as the degenerate US empire. Most of these anti corruption cases are handled by the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (‘中纪委’). If you look at oversea Chinese liberal media landscape, that is the single most hated governmental entity that some segments of those people are vehemently attacking. Doesn’t take much to know why.

  138. R.C says:
    @AnonCN

    Yeah, you are right. But more like it is the ‘anti-white’ elites, instead of white elites that are running the West at the moment.

    • Agree: Trinity
  139. R.C says:
    @Ron Unz

    I appreciate the links. I will read them more in details.

    I really liked your analysis about how social Darwinism shaped China in (https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/), it really matches a lot of what i have observed and experienced.

    That article was actually being translated and posted on a popular Chinese forum:
    (https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/55038747)
    (https://www.zhihu.com/question/19916228/answer/33407060)

    And the other one of your article about the myth of American meritocracy (https://www.unz.com/runz/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/), have also been referenced a couple of times in Chinese as well:

    (https://www.zhihu.com/question/269467728/answer/365112553)
    (https://www.zhihu.com/question/63747756/answer/212466224)

    • Thanks: Ron Unz
  140. geokat62 says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    What do you think of this lower calculated IFR?

    According to the article, the IFR of 0.26% may be on the high side, as the CDC assumed the number of asymptomatic cases to be just 35%:

    Ultimately, we might find out that the IFR is even lower because numerous studies and hard counts of confined populations have shown a much higher percentage of asymptomatic cases. Simply adjusting for a 50% asymptomatic rate would drop their fatality rate to 0.2% – exactly the rate of fatality Dr. John Ionnidis of Stanford University projected.

    • Troll: GazaPlanet
  141. @Ron Unz

    Here’s a story which recognises various human peculiarities and which I suggest is at least as plausible as yours which recognises only evil and ruthlessness.

    It is the story of an under resourced and disregarded medical intelligence unit which rarely gets cut in on anything and certainly would be at the bottom of the list to be told of nefarious deeds of biowarfare. It gets a tip that some returning military athletes are sick in interesting ways. “Hey Bill, I thought you would be interested in this one. Right up your alley in fact. Apparently three fit young athletes have got something very odd and nasty going on in their lungs and they’ve all been together in China”.

    After a bit of head scratching and fruitless inquiries Bill decides to use a bit of ingenuity to see if he can turn something up and resorts to open source social media searches which he has been experimenting with for some time. Bingo! It’s not much and it’s not conclusive but it could be very important indeed. So he beats up the story for all the more prestigious intelligence agencies being careful to cover his backside with carefully worded disclaimers that won’t detract from his immediate audience and/or readership’s enthusiasm for passing on the story. Why isn’t that more probable than that a miscellaneous lot of intelligence officers get let in on a secret operation by US clandestine operatives without realising that it is horrifically dangerous and needs to be reported *as such* urgently and forcefully at the highest level – indeed to the President?

    The word “cataclysmic” may have been used but that need only be attention getting for an agency which needs to be noticed and remembered. Even if “cataclysmic” turns out to be wrong it will have been noticed and excused with “but what if it had been the worst case scenario?”.

  142. geokat62 says:

    Breaking news… Say “Au revoire” to free speech in France!

    [MORE]

    With a new law, the French government has decided to delegate the task of state censorship to online platforms such as Facebook, Google, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and Snapchat. Private companies will now be obliged to act as thought police on behalf of the French state or face heavy fines.

    Introductory paragraphs to, France’s Determination to End Free Speech:

    On May 13, the French parliament adopted a law that requires online platforms such as Facebook, Google, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and Snapchat to remove reported “hateful content” within 24 hours and “terrorist content” within one hour. Failure to do so could result in exorbitant fines of up to €1.25 million or 4% of the platform’s global revenue in cases of repeated failure to remove the content.

    The scope of online content deemed “hateful” under what is known as the “Avia law” (after the lawmaker who proposed it) is, as is common in European hate speech laws, very broadly demarcated and includes “incitement to hatred, or discriminatory insult, on the grounds of race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or disability”.

    The French law was directly inspired by Germany’s controversial NetzDG law, adopted in in October 2017, and it is explicitly mentioned in the introduction to the Avia law.

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16057/france-free-speech

    I wonder which lobby group in France pushed for this new law?

    Could it be Conseil Représentatif des Institutions juives de France (CRIF)?

    Sacrebleu!

    Macron

    • Thanks: Adûnâi, Rurik, Robjil
    • Replies: @Robjil
  143. @AnonCN

    You remind me of what is generally regarded as the liberating effect on the peasantry and labourers of the Black Death which possibly killed a third of the English about 1349. The lower classes grew bigger and stronger and less subservient, and there was the the eugenic effect of shipping off White Trash to the Americas before the trade in black slaves got going. After about 1660 a common interest in British prosperity supported by naval dominance and military success made the British- even some of the Irish with them – very unified.

  144. @Ron Unz

    The lowered fatality rate is an artifact of using a new, quite different denominator. (I forget where I read about this.) The old denominator is based on tests that discover “are there viral cells?” = “is the patient infected?”.

    [MORE]

    A new test looks at presence of immune response artifacts (anti-bodies or some such), so it discovers “has this patient ever been infected?”. The article reports that researchers were surprised at the large number of people who apparently had been infected, and remained asymptomatic while their immune system fought and killed the filthy globalist zionist kike invader virus; such people would no longer test positive on the older test, it being past the time window within the lifecycle of the disease during which the old test is valid.

    So, new test ==> much larger denominator ==> much smaller rate. But, an orange and not an apple.

    None of this has much effect on policy regarding the need for social distancing and lockdown, which is driven by things like infection rate, typical illness duration and ICU capacity. We degenerate first-worlders prefer to avoid if possible having our lungs get diseased, and then slowly drowning in the liquid accumulating in our fucked up lungs, never seeing or speaking to loved ones again. We’re kind of bratty that way (now is a good time for a reader to hold their breath for a few tens of seconds and experience what I’m trying to convey viscerally in addition to intellectually); maybe we should strive to be more like Iranian Revolutionary Guards and Hezbollah, etc.

    There is of course a third fatality rate, the big one, where the denominator is the number of people infected and severely symptomatic and showing up at the hospital.

    Of course this is all too complex for most hysterical paranoid right-wing cranks, such as the readers of Breitbart, which I agree is indeed very trashy, but also those of unz.com which is also quite trashy and offers a voice to some remarkably dishonest and deluded writers desperately seeking attention.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  145. anon[299] • Disclaimer says:

    R.C. has a valuable appreciation of the four-pockets problem affecting some Chinese elites. But when the PRC catches an outrageously corrupt official, they shoot him. When the USG catches an outrageously corrupt official, they run him for president.

    It was the USG that prevented the Convention Against Corruption from criminalizing trading in influence and abuse of function. The US put a bunch of client states up it. Trading in influence and abuse of function are the USG’s raison d’etre. The PRC tries to keep it down to a dull roar.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  146. denk says:
    @Anon

    I missed this gem

    invasion of India

    Hey Patel,
    When the Nepal KIng Birendra’s family was massacred in 2001, the Nepalese were chanting in the streets…
    ‘Death to China India !

    Everybody in the neighborhood calls India the USA of South Asia.
    Who’r you trying to kid ?

  147. A123 says:
    @ChuckOrloski

    Off topic, my apology, and as St. Paul has become a warzone due to a brutal murder of a blackman by police, our Jewish Corporate Media will neither question nor suggest an end to US city police forces getting lucrative training from ruthless Israelis.

    You are asking wrong question. A better question would be:

    Why is the sharia-compliant Fake Stream Media covering up the fact that this violence is caused by Muslims from Somalia?

    The Muslim Corporate Media will neither question nor suggest an end to Jihadi Islam coming to Christian America. The police are doing the best they can to protect Christians from ruthless Islam, but it does not seem to be enough.

    Regardless of race, Islam is violent towards all other Infidel religions. America, as an Infidel country, can never expect peaceful behavior from incompatible Muslims. This is a symptom of failed immigration policy.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @FLgeezer
  148. Ron Unz says:
    @04398436986

    The lowered fatality rate is an artifact of using a new, quite different denominator. (I forget where I read about this.)

    Well, you sound exactly like the sort of stupid and ignorant rightwinger who is the intended target of such dishonest propaganda…

    • Replies: @04398436986
  149. geokat62 says:
    @A123

    The Muslim Corporate Media…

    lol

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @A123
  150. @Ron Unz

    I found the article. It’s from a reputable mainstream source. The contents confirm what I wrote.

    Your reaction appears to have been entirely emotional. When you digest the contents of the article you will surely wish to retract your insult.

    Antibody Tests Point To Lower Death Rate For The Coronavirus Than First Thought

    The evidence comes from tests that detect antibodies to the coronavirus in a person’s blood rather than the virus itself.

    The tests are finding large numbers of people in the U.S. who were infected but never became seriously ill. And when these mild infections are included in coronavirus statistics, the virus appears less dangerous.

    [Earlier,] health officials only knew about people who had been sick enough to get tested for the virus. .. “It doesn’t capture the vast number of people out there who might be infected but not seeking medical care,” he says.

    Participants got two tests. The first was the standard test that looks for the virus. It shows whether you have an active infection. The second was a test that looks for antibodies to the virus in a person’s blood. It detects people who were infected but have recovered.

    For Menachemi and his team, it was like finally getting a glimpse of the entire coronavirus iceberg, instead of just the part above the water.

    And the data allowed them to calculate something called the infection fatality rate — the odds that an infected person will die. Previously, scientists had relied on what’s known as the case fatality rate, which calculates the odds that someone who develops symptoms will die.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/28/863944333/antibody-tests-point-to-lower-death-rate-for-the-coronavirus-than-first-thought?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  151. FLgeezer says:
    @A123

    How can we make it known to black Minnesotans who trained the police in the Twin Cities?

    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/15/police-israel-cops-training-adl-human-rights-abuses-dc-washington/

    We are all Palestinians now.

    • Replies: @A123
  152. Ron Unz says:
    @04398436986

    I found the article. It’s from a reputable mainstream source. The contents confirm what I wrote.

    Your reaction appears to have been entirely emotional. When you digest the contents of the article you will surely wish to retract your insult.

    Sure, it looks like a perfectly sensible MSM article. But it just confirmed everything I already knew, including that you’re a total retard who apparently also has severe reading problems. Here’s a crucial quote from near the beginning of the article:

    “The current best estimates for the infection fatality risk are between 0.5% and 1%,” says Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @04398436986
    , @Wizard of Oz
  153. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Brilliant expose by a former Israeli soldier on the US-police-IDF-money nexus, please share:

    Peace.

    • Thanks: SolontoCroesus, FLgeezer
    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @SolontoCroesus
  154. Talha says:
    @R.C

    Very nice first comment, and welcome.

    Peace.

  155. A123 says:
    @geokat62

    Everyone knows the Muslim Corporate Media pushes an unending stream of Anti-Semitism. It is an obvious truth. The New York Dhimmi Times of Islam is the #1 offender.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    • Replies: @Vaterland
  156. FB says: • Website
    @ChuckOrloski

    Chuck, I’m glad you mentioned the George Floyd killing…a very deeply disturbing thing to watch…

    You are absolutely correct in linking the increasingly criminal and completely unaccountable police behavior to the same kind of behavior we see with the Israeli occupation troops in Palestine…

    A person cannot help but be shaken to the core when seeing something like this [at least a person with a sense of morality and decency]…the same kind of sickening feeling you get when seeing the Israeli butchers opening fire on children in Palestine…

    Incredible that the killer cop hasn’t been charged yet…I will say I have been very impressed with the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, who called very publicly for an arrest…[but we’re still waiting],,,the only decent man in authority in this whole incident…

    No one can possibly defend Israeli brutality, nor police brutality [they kill upward of 1,000 people a year in the US]…yet that is exactly what we see from certain quarters…disgusting…

    • Replies: @ChuckOrloski
  157. Talha says:
    @Malla

    But Indian elites desperately want China to consider India as a worthy enemy so that its status can be elevated above being just Pakistan’s rival. A kind of promotion in prestige.

    Makes sense. Thought you might enjoy this (below the MORE tag).

    Peace.

    [MORE]
    • Replies: @Malla
  158. A123 says:
    @FLgeezer

    How can we make it known to black Minnesotans who trained the police in the Twin Cities?

    I am sure that the Muslim Somalis occupying Minnesota know that they are Islamic.

    We are all Palestinians now.

    The threat of Muslim Jihadi attacks on infidels (Christians and Jews) is everywhere.

    So…. Let me Fix That For You:

    We are all Israelis now.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @FLgeezer
    , @AaronB
  159. geokat62 says:
    @Talha

    Brilliant expose by a former Israeli soldier on the US-police-IDF-money nexus, please share:

    Agree. Thanks for sharing, Talha.

    The speaker, Eran Efrati (an Israeli) gave this talk to a Denver, Colorado audience over 7 years ago!

    … unsurprisingly, few heeded his ominous but accurate warning:

    … and if you don’t care about us, Israelis, asking for your help to stop the apartheid regime in Israel, I’m fine with that, also.

    But, you guys should know… you are next in line.

    The next one who will die from a tear gas canister into his chest [or knee in the neck] will be in Zuccotti Park, will be in Denver, will be in Oakland, in San Francisco.

    It is happening here, already. It’s happening to different people. To people of colour, to immigrants in this country… it’s already happening. You guys are next in line. The next one will die. Out of brutality of police will be one of your sons or your daughters in a protest. Because they’re training together. Training with our [Israel’s] army. Our army’s training them how to take care of the enemy. Because Palestinians are our enemy. But when they’re coming back, YOU are their enemy.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rurik
  160. Robjil says:
    @geokat62

    Here is the inspiration for the Avia bill in France . The slogan that France is the land of “liberty, equality and fraternity” was a joke after all. So sad for humanity.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/29/french-online-hate-speech-bill-aims-to-wipe-out-racist-trolling

    The bill is part of Macron’s drive to make France a frontrunner in the regulation of big social media platforms. He announced the planned crackdown on online hate at a dinner for Jewish groups last year, amid a rise of antisemitic acts in France, saying that hateful content online must be taken down fast and “all possible techniques” put in place to find the identities of those behind it.

    Last month, after meetings with Macron, Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg agreed to hand over to judges the identification data on its French users suspected of hate speech.

    • Thanks: geokat62
  161. Rurik says:
    @R.C

    A very interesting and enlightening comment R.C,

    the very kind of thing that makes the UR so uniquely engaging.

    the tribe is quite frightened at the rate China is rising

    Has anyone postulated yet on the possibility that it was the Mossad (Israel) who did this on their own?

    Perhaps timing it with Pompeo’s visit for exactly the kind of deflection we’re speculating on here?

    Would anyone put it past the Zionists to assassinate anyone they considered inconvenient?

    It could be that he was trying to reach out to the US as his political allies in China loses power for self protection

    You yourself just mentioned the endemic ‘ethnocentrism’ of the Chinese. Do you really consider it a possibility that such a trusted man, would even consider betraying China and defecting to the ZUS at such a time, when the ZUS is sabre rattling at China, and trying to blame China for all the economic and other dire consequences of this pandemic?

    That a trusted diplomat in a very sensitive position could be the kind of person that would betray China, and those who put him in that position, over to the nation who is demonizing China and threatening her militarily?

    I would find that difficult (impossible) to believe.

    He’d be the most hated man in China for generations. Du Wei = would come to mean traitor and synonymous with betrayal. His children would have to change their names, and never show their faces in public ever again.

    At least, that is how I would see it, but then, as your comment clearly shows, you know a lot more about the Chinese than I ever could.

  162. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Yeah, when he made those prescient comments about how one of our sons or daughters would eventual become casualties of these programs, it sent a chill up my spine.

    And thanks for your posts on the other thread. I’ve sent it out over Twitter and it’s on its way to have been viewed by around 40,000 at this pace. Easily one of my most popular posts.

    Peace.

  163. FLgeezer says:
    @A123

    >We are all Israelis now.

    You have never been anything else A123. You are first, last, and always a hasbarist. And to imagine that Somalis are leading the rioting is delusional.

    http://salem-news.com/articles/october292013/israel-dhs.php

    • Replies: @A123
  164. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    The Chinese history is the history of relentless and brutal infighting coupled swinging between a Darwinian/Malthusian world and a Hobbesian world. Many (actually most if not all) senior level political families in China have bought political insurance to their careers in China by building up a back up overseas and out their money and family there to shield them away from the ruthless internal politics of China. As the Chinese saying goes “狡兔三窟” (a cunning hare has three hideouts). It is simply not the degenerate Westen lifestyle they are opting for, rather their own career and safety inside the country China by doing so.

    这是大陆人的看法。因为他们不太了解中国古典儒家文化。也不太了解西方文化。大陆人贪婪与中国历史无关。 贪婪是道德问题,而不是政治问题。您对西方概念印象太深刻。您真的不明白您在说什么 — Darwinian, Malthusian, Hobbesian — 达与中国无关。

    • Agree: d dan
  165. @Ron Unz

    You erred in concluding that my summarizing from memory results from a recent study from a reputable source was evidence of my being a “rightwinger” who had been a “target” of “dishonest propaganda”. That was incorrect.

    But I erred first. I assumed that the article JohnnyWalker123 had asked you about (also reporting lower fatality rate) was a Breitbart respun version of the exact same underlying study. That was incorrect.

  166. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Powerful

    because it’s true

  167. A123 says:
    @FLgeezer

    Muslim Geezer,

    I am a Christian warning about your violent Jihadi invasion of America.

    The Muslim Corporate Media effort to push Taqiyya (1) lies is failing. The truth about the religious duty of Muslims to kill Christians has gotten out. You should return home to Tehran while you have the chance.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) http://muslimfact.com/bm/terror-in-the-name-of-islam/islam-permits-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri.shtml

  168. AaronB says:
    @A123

    Lol, the training the US does with the Israeli police is generally SWAT type stuff and counter terrorism techniques…..not civilian police, in which Israel has no special experience or expertise. In fact in local civilian policing Israel probably has less experience than the US, as crime is low there.

    Why am I not surprised that Muslims are trying to exploit this situation to end anti-terrorism training for US forces, when that had zero to do with this case involving a local beat cop? Its almost as if they don’t want US police to be good at responding to terrorist attacks..

    Right, like putting your knees on an already subdued mans neck for 8 minutes until he dies is a cutting edge anti-terror “technique” that low level civilian beat cops had to go to Israel to learn…

    But when you have no shame, you will exploit anyone’s pain and misery for your advantage.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @FLgeezer
  169. @FB

    Hey FB!

    Given Israel’s annexation of America, which includes law, adjudication, and law enforcement. I reckon city police have no choice but to either accept Israeli training or seek another profession. (Note; “Right to Know” law, would be nice to see a list of American city police forces who were trained by Israeli companies)

    As you know, every cop in America knows about police brutality. Doubtless, all police trainers, including unaccountable & presumably “certified” 🤔Israelis, must address this volatile factor.

    Lawbreakers know this too. They can either respect the badge, or tempt it to the point of breaking down a mature officer’s will. Action goes both ways, and I would not want to be a cop in broken, locked down, overtaxed, and restless Scranton.

    Thanks a lot for your thought, FB.

    Fyi, years ago, Paul Craig Roberts warned about the militarization of US city police forces. Regrettably, such is the old “New Normal;” courtesy of America’s zionized military’s equipment surplus, cornucopia.

    • Replies: @FB
  170. FB says: • Website
    @ChuckOrloski

    Yes I’ve seen PCR get into some righteous rages against the badge toting thugs…

    I won’t say I have any sympathy for the profession at this point…as someone who has lived abroad, and where police are actually normal, decent people that you don’t have to be afraid of, I can say in all honesty I have absolutely no interest in playing the role of a Palestinian punching bag [or worse]…

    Respect is something that has to be earned…and you don’t do that by power tripping on ordinary folks…

    Citizens deserve respect too…

  171. A123 says:
    @AaronB

    Is it not surprising how quickly the pro-Islamic fanatics try to sweep under the rug facts they do not like.

    For example, I have not heard the Muslim Corporate Media outlets bring up the brutal murder commited by Officer Mohamed: (1)

    Minneapolis Somali-Muslim cop Mohamed Noor shot unarmed, pajama-clad Justine Damond to death at point blank range. Damond had called 911 to report a sexual assault behind her home when she heard the woman screaming for help. Mohamed Noor “shot to kill” her when she approached his squad car just minutes after she called 911.

    It is almost like CNN simply ignores crimes that do not fit their desired racial & religious narrative.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) https://gellerreport.com/2019/04/guilty-minneapolis-muslim-cop-who-killed-unarmed-pajama-clad-justine-damond-found-guilty-of-murder.html/

    • Replies: @AaronB
  172. geokat62 says:

    BREAKING: Twitter Censors Trump, Again!

    [MORE]

    Yesterday President Trump signed a social media executive order that specifically mentioned Twitter. Twitter doesn’t seem too concerned or scared, nor should they be as many legal experts have weighed in and stated that this EO doesn’t hold much weight. The executive order goes after CDA Section 230. This is bad. It’s something we wrote our concerns about here. 

    This morning Twitter once again editorialized one of the President’s tweets, but this time they took it a step further. They totally covered up his entire tweet with their editorial comment and made it so the President’s tweet could not be commented on or liked by anyone on the site. 

    The solution is for the President to join and openly support alternative technology platforms like Gab and others.

    If he leads the world away from Silicon Valley platforms: tens of millions of people will follow.
    Please send him posts asking him to get on Gab. 

    If not, Twitter and Silicon Valley will continue to crush any and all dissent. Including from the President of the United States of America. 

    We have the President’s Gab account ready and waiting.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZL6YtXXsAAEKQm.jpg

  173. AaronB says:
    @A123

    There you go. Muslims kill whites and it just gets brushed under the rug. And don’t forget the other recent Muslim attacks on whites.

    Thanks for the article about Taqiya btw. Sending that to a lot of my friends. This needs to get out more.

    I’m going to research that more also – based on my interactions with Muslims on this site, as well as other things, I am coming around to the view that it is substantially correct and Taqiya is a fundamental aspect of Muslim behavior towards non-Muslims.

    Based on my reading in 19th century travelogues and the like, Muslim lying and exaggeration was a feature noted by everyone at the time. I want to explore the apparent likelihood that it is rooted in and sanctioned by the religion, which seems to be the case.

    Its not unusual for cultures to practice deceit. Greek culture before Christianity was known to sanction deceit, and Chinese culture is notorious for that as well.

    Cheers.

  174. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Trading in influence and abuse of power:

    China: “necessary evil, best minimized”

    America: “glorious good, best maximized”

  175. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    For one thing, China is a nation home to 1.4 billion high IQ population with 4000-5000 (depending on if you count from the Western or the Chinese academic sources) of civilized history and was historically subjected to great survival pressure on its population. Thus, traditionally it has been a very ruthless and cutthroat competitive environment inside China with sometimes almost brutal and purely Darwinian selection going on even up until today. That’s why given the same development level, East Asian society has always been the most stressful in terms of living and working. Just imagine living in a society filled with average IQ ~108 population numbered more than a billion with limited resources available and has a culture that emphasizes hard working, the competition is unparalleled in terms of ruthlessness.

    中国大陆人的特质:以一颗黑心取得成功。 您不了解东亚。 日本,韩国,新加坡,华侨都是儒家社会。 与“Darwinism”无关。你知道“Darwinism”是什么意思吗? “狗吃狗”适者生存。 但是旧代中国是一个高度文化的儒家社会。 这就是为什么日本,韩国和越南采用中国的儒家文化。 现代中国没有文化,没有灵魂,没有价值。

    • Replies: @ivan
  176. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.C

    Excellent post, R.C

    Please post more, your thoughtful sharing is VERY welcome.

  177. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    Most of the slightly relevant sources are all in Chinese. It is a tremendous effort. If I do get time sometimes to compile the sources and maybe translate some of them. I will be sure post them.

    Sorry but you are the biggest bullshit artist to post here on UNZ.com. Nobody has died in any internal power struggle within the CPC ever since Mao passed away. And nobody is impressed with your nonsense about your so-called “Darwinian” version of Chinese history.

    • Agree: FB
  178. @R.C

    Thank you so much for your explain about China on the link below:

    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-death-in-herzliya/#comment-3924408

    You are a mainland Chinese who post the comment about the political internal conflict of China throughout the history and your explain very reasonable to me (unlike the opinion from pro-China and Sinophilia here). I am truly surprise and shock that some pro-China and Sinophilia here don’t even trust you are a mainland Chinese because you just says something that does not fit their believe.

    As a Vietnamese myself, I will be honest, I am in fact truly distrust on China government due to their imperialism and opportunism nature especially China Government fishy relationship with US and Israel and their action on the South East China sea like ramming Vietnamese fishing boat and pushing the dash line on the South China Sea.

    I want to ask you some questions:

    1. Do you think there will be war between Vietnam and China in the future based on your own knowledge on China politics? This is something I truly don’t want to have.

    2. According to the conversation between Kevin Barrett and Daniel Estulin:
    https://www.unz.com/audio/kbarrett_daniel-estulin-coronavirus-is-a-debt-liquidation-scam/

    Do you think China and US are behind the COVID-19 pandemic? To be brutal honest, I am truly believe China and US behind the COVID-19.

    Please take you time to answer, I know my “distrust part” will offend you so much because you are Chinese and you have right to be bias and protective on your own country, to me to be bias is in fact better than to be non-bias (well look at the oversea, anti-commie, and inferiority Vietnamese, they are non-bias and disaster).

    I hope my English skill is not too hard to understand for you.

  179. Vaterland says:
    @brabantian

    Halfchan has become entirely unusable, especially in the current year. It is now 90% nothing but bot spam content sliding, astroturfing and disinformation by all flavors of bad actors. Disinformation as the post you linked like a faceberg boomer Qtard.

    Unz has made all the points necessary why especially this defection story is extremely retarded and apparently there is now indeed a concentrated disinfo campaign going on. Halfchan is now good for one thing alone: to find out the bullshit narratives that the deep state wants you to believe in.

  180. Vaterland says:
    @A123

    That moment when you can’t tell the hasbara troll from a Nazi Pepe ridiculing ZOG propaganda anymore.

    • LOL: geokat62, AnonStarter
  181. @Talha

    Thanks again, Geokat62.

    The full video is here:

    I’m stuck at 8 min, where Eran Efrati recounts that after months and months of military training for war, he is assigned to a settler village in a Palestinian city.

    He realizes that he is in the Palestinian town to

    “make sure everybody in the city understands who is calling the shots: It’s us, the army, and the Jewish settlers around us.
    And after a while there doing my job I realized something I found it very hard to understand: I had the power to close a complete city down. I would just have to walk down the street and scream something like, Curfew!, and everybody would close their shops and run to their homes . . .”

    PS. What are the chances George Floyd is sharing a suite somewhere with Jeffrey Epstein; that the death-by-knee was staged, a provocation by seeded subversives in order to incite the riot? Will the riot spread to other cities?

    • Replies: @FB
  182. geokat62 says:

  183. joun says:
    @Ron Unz

    If the CIA (or similar) is pushing a story that the fellow was going to defect, then it is worth considering that they are using your site as the place to initiate the story. Suggests that Unz.com is an important node in the media ecosystem.

  184. ivan says:
    @Sean

    In fact up to February the Chicoms in their usual passive aggressive way were threatening unspecified consequences were any nation to suspend flights to and from China. They had already imposed the WW2 style blockade on Wuhan and subsequently the Hubei province. 3000 or so dead is nothing in the scheme of things in a large country like China. They obviously strongly suspected that they was a leak from the L4 lab. But with the help of Tedros the clown they managed to spread the virus throughout the world. Nations like Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea , and India, not incidentally nations who trust the Chicoms only as far as they can throw them put in measures that quite effectively changed the course of the disease in their countries. But Trump and Navarro were racist to even suggest that flights from China be suspended.

    And incidentally the “Italian virus” that Cuomo claims is the source of the outbreak in NY has its origins in the large Chinese population which works in the high fashion industry in Northern Italy. Those hard working fellows are the ones who turn out the ten thousand dollar handbags so necessary to distinguish oneself in the socialist paradise that is China.

    If one wants a realtime example of how plain facts that occurred as little as a few months ago , can be twisted to mean just about anything other than the true sequence of events , one need only hang here with the parade of misdirectors, peddlers of half-truths, bellyachers and the rest of the crew here.

    • Thanks: Sean
    • Troll: d dan
  185. FB says: • Website
    @SolontoCroesus

    What are the chances George Floyd is sharing a suite somewhere with Jeffrey Epstein; that the death-by-knee was staged…

    Wow…what an absolute idiot…

    Please tell us how exactly an African American nobody who gets arrested for passing a suspected counterfeit twenty bill is like the Mossad-connected, private island and East Side townhouse-owning, child predator Epstein…

    You are seriously retarded…[as if we didn’t know already…]

  186. @antibeast

    Myself have wondered as to the provenance of R.C., but it’s palpably ludicrous to claim the zero people have died of politics (i.e. evolved-gangsterism) in China since the Yellow-Empor— I mean Mao. It’s not plausible, hence it kind of damages your own credibility more than it should be– you’ve written some interesting stuff here.
    I’ve been quite intrigued by R.C.’s contributions, though I have no opinion as to legit or impersonation or whatever.

  187. Compliments to geokat, Talha, and so many others here on getting out the word about Israeli training of U.S. police departments.

    Feels good to see you guys working together so well.

  188. ivan says:
    @antibeast

    Don’t bullshit man about the uniformly high IQ Chinese. Ive seen many who won’t pass muster. What the Chinese have is an ability to work themselves to death if needed. That accounts for all the productivity differences.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  189. @anon8383892

    Well, RC made a claim. So far has produced zero evidence.

    Now you just came out supporting his claim.

    You got source? Would love to read.

  190. @ivan

    Just in case any anon is wondering.

    This is the perfect example of a Zionist troll using a handle with easily identifiable race or country.

    • Replies: @Sean
  191. antibeast says:
    @ivan

    Don’t bullshit man about the uniformly high IQ Chinese. I’ve seen many who won’t pass muster. What the Chinese have is an ability to work themselves to death if needed. That accounts for all the productivity differences.

    I don’t believe in biological determinism which holds that genetic differences are the primary determinant of socio-economic progress. Other factors are more important: cultural, political, historical, geophysical, etc. I don’t even believe in IQ because innate intelligence of a people per se does not determine socio-economic progress.You need the proper environment: social, cultural, political — for things to work.

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  192. antibeast says:
    @anon8383892

    R.C. made some claims and then became evasive when asked for documented evidence. He then concocted some bullshit about his supposed “Darwinian” version of Chinese history, claiming that East Asians have always been involved in some kind of Darwinian struggle for survival of the fittest. No need for me to lecture him on East Asian society and politics which has always been “Confucianist” not “Darwinian”. East Asian Confucianists follow the “Laws of Heaven” — not the Darwinian “Laws of the Jungle” — to create a Society and a State based on a moral order. Maybe he’s confused about Western history but that’s another story;.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
    , @R.C
  193. Adûnâi says:
    @antibeast

    > “East Asian Confucianists follow the “Laws of Heaven” — not the Darwinian “Laws of the Jungle” — to create a Society and a State based on a moral order.”

    Would you care to explain the difference? From what I know, the Chinese: 1) respected their ancestors – quite Darwinian; 2) expanded on all fronts, colonized the South – quite Darwinian; 3) always rose up against foreigners – quite Darwinian.

    The failure of Confucianism was its inability to face the changed struggle against modernised Japan.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @showmethereal
  194. AnonCN says:

    @antibeast
    As mainlander Chinese, I can totally understand that R.C actually don’t seriously care that much about those norms/names: this -ism , that -ism; this -ists, that -ist; this -ology, that -ology…
    Simply speaking, we don’t give a shit anymore! We somehow push ourselves to use those names just to make it easier to communicate with others, since others act as if they do care those names.

    They name those names! They give those definitions! They rule through such standards!

    We don’t give a shit the way others do! We respect those names by ignore them.
    Even it’s Confucianism. We don’t want to be ruled! If needed, we can ruin everything and inherit everything and re-define everything. We can pay the price and get what we want. We simply can.
    Yes, we inherit the tradition by ruin the tradition. 日新 日日新 又日新

    Every time I see those people discussing those names so seriously, I roll may eyes. But OK, I might listen for convenience.
    There is nothing new under the sun. At least it is true for social science(history/politic/whatever names in English I don’t really care). Why continuously invent new names? Again, just for convivence and that’s all. Why respect/inherit/ruin/despise them differently based on whether those names are invented by your ancestors or others ancestors? We treat them same!
    道可道 非常道 名可名 非常名
    Why pushing anyone to use the so called right names, give the so called full evidence when it comes to social science? It’s good enough you learn the big trend. Ridiculous those guys asking C.R to offer something as if he is the new omniscient and omnipotent of China. He might be another version of ‘5G did it’, ‘Bill Gates did it’, ‘Jews did it’ in China. He start his argument basically kissing/supporting other people’s slander, you know where he stand already.

    West generally tend to let the nobles rule since ancient times. East(China) tend to let people involved. Both of them feel nice about their own choice. Not much changed whatever new names/-ism you invent/imply.
    So what, if one pyramid is taller in height, while another pyramid is bigger in base? Both standing there, aren’t they?
    Don’t judge others as if your are so sure that your choice is also the better choice for others.
    You just follow your choice, take other as references to perfecting your own all the way for yourself. Maybe at the end of the day, we meet the others at the same ending. People can take different paths, while reach the same ending.

    • Replies: @R.C
    , @Astuteobservor II
  195. Malla says:
    @Talha

    LOL, Thanks. Must be a very famous meme among Pakistanis.

  196. R.C says:
    @AnonCN

    Exactly, you have nailed it. Chinese history is a history of creative destruction. Without it, China would not be a civilization with such longevity and strength. As it have rejuvenated itself many times in the past. As we say: 不破不立 (without breaking, there is no building). And those idealism and ideological purity of the West don’t blend well with the pragmatism of the Chinese culture. In fact, many are just 挂羊头,卖狗肉(putting up the goat head but sell the dog meat)or打左灯,向右转(push on the left light but drive the car to the right)。

  197. Sean says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    This post is about Israel getting close to China and you are accusing another commenter of being a Zionist agent because he is animadverting China? Maybe you are onto something.

    https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2020/04/09/Coronavirus-Critics-ask-why-China-allowed-flights-out-of-Hubei-during-outbreak
    Addressing China’s President Xi Jinping directly, historian Niall Ferguson wrote in an op-ed: “… after it became clear that there was a full-blown epidemic spreading from Wuhan to the rest of Hubei province, why did you cut off travel from Hubei to the rest of China – on January 23 – but not from Hubei to the rest of the world?”
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU_6OAHX0AAGzEx?format=png&name=small
    Ferguson’s accusations refer to China continuing to allow international travel long past January 23, the date when it imposed serious restrictions on travel within China in an attempt to quarantine Wuhan from the rest of the country.

    Israel is exultant at its links with China strengthening. We know that the Netanyahu clan will become billionaires, because that paying of of barbarian elites is the way China works. Moreover China surely has more in mind that a pure financial return from investment in Israel. In Xi’s mind the Israel lobby is the very best of wedges to use against the Trump presidency’s economic self defence of America against China.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-china-says-we-trust-the-jewish-friends-after-pompeo-warns-israel-about-investments-1.8848309
    China Says ‘We Trust the Jewish Friends’ After Pompeo Warns Israel About Investments

    Embassy in Israel responds to U.S. Secretary of State claim that China concealed information about the outbreak of coronavirus as ‘absurd’

    If Pompeo wants to apply a little pressure to Israel to pry them away from China, then it would be opportune to raise concerns with Israel about West Bank annexation. Maybe that is why Mr Giraldi is so keen on sowing distrust between Israel and the US, and promoting the Israel–China connection into being an unbreakable one: he wants the leadership of Israel to choose Chinese gelt in preference to Israel containing Bantustans.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  198. R.C says:
    @antibeast

    I have read a lot of your past comments and many of them are of very high quality and i respected the angle you are coming from and learned a lot from your perspective.

    But it seems you are just trying to engage in argument with bad faith here. And by calling names and throwing around attacks.

    If you do want to know the so called ‘Darwinian’ aspect of China. I suggest you start here on Unz: (https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/)

    I will be more than happy to engage in civilized discussions, but i will not respond to your future comments, if you keep wanting to throw viscous attacks.

    You have a very simple understanding of Darwinism. And to respond to your previous message, Darwinism was not introduced as a mainland China only culture. In fact, the formal theories were first introduced in the late Qing dynasty by the scholar ‘严复’and his book ‘天演论’.

    Even ideologically speaking, Confucianism is only one of many that were developed under the Spring and Autumn and warring state period and was made state ideology only under the Emperor Wu of Han (汉武帝)under abandon all other schools of thoughts and champion and ideology of Confucianism (罢黜百家,独尊儒术) to replace the previous state ideology of some form of primitive Taoism (黄老之术) in the earlier part of Han dynasty.

    The ‘rules of heaven’ (天道) you were referring to was a very idealistic primordial state philosophers were romanticizing about. But throughout the 500 years of struggles in Spring and Autumn and warring state period (春秋战国), ‘rules of heaven’ devolved gradually and was replaced by ‘rules of Emperor'(帝道), ‘rules of king'(王道) and ‘rules of hegemon’ (霸道). With the last one won out as a championing the ideology of struggle which became the way how the empire of China was actually governed for 2000 of years after unification under the emperor of Qin. Confucianism was favored by generations of emperors and bureaucrats because of its core elements of ‘孝’ (loyalty and respect to the elderly of the family or clan) and ‘忠’ (loyalty to the emperor and the country). Those elements are what glued the society together which made it easy to be governed. And in fact, ‘法家’ (legalism) was more practiced on in the imperial bureaucracy as the way of Emperor (帝王心术) for ruling the country as the core of ‘rules of hegemon’ (霸道). That is the source which provides the mentality of hegemonic ruling, an coupled with tactics from ‘兵家’ (school of soldiers), ‘纵横家’ (school of diplomats) and other scholars like ‘鬼谷子’, made up the building elements of the way of Emperor (帝王心术). It is source of wisdom to draw upon for thousands of years of struggles which are in fact quite Darwinian.

    So if you are so happy to educate me about Confucianism and ancient Chinese school of thoughts, presumably you know quite a lot about it. Perhaps, you can help me to know the origin and meaning of the following ancient Chinese texts written by a scholar during roughly similar historic period with Confucius and Mencius, and then we can maybe start to engage in some more constructive discussions:

    民弱國彊,民彊國弱,故有道之國,務在弱民。樸則彊,淫則弱;弱則軌,淫則越志;弱則有用,越志則彊。故曰:「以彊去弱者弱,以弱去彊者彊。」民善之則和,利之則用;用則有任,和則匱;有任乃富於政。上舍法,任民之所善,故姦多。民貧則力富,民富則淫,淫則有蝨。故民富而不用,則使民以食出爵,爵必以其力,則農不偷。農不偷,六蝨無萌。故國富而民治,重彊。兵易弱難彊,民樂生安佚,死難難正,易之則彊。事有羞,多姦寡;賞無失,多姦疑。敵失必利,兵至彊威。事無羞,利用兵,久處利勢,必王。故兵行敵之所不敢行,強;事興敵之所羞為,利。法有,民安其次;主變,事能得齊;國守安,主操權利。故主貴多變,國貴少變。利出一孔,則國多物;出十孔,則國少物。守一者治,守十者亂。治則彊,亂則弱,彊則物來,弱則物去。故國致物者彊,去物者弱。民辱則貴爵,弱則尊官,貧則重賞。以刑治民則樂用,以賞戰民則輕死。故戰事兵用曰彊。民有私榮,則賤列卑官;富則輕賞。治民羞辱以刑,戰則戰。民畏死事亂而戰,故兵農怠而國弱。

    • Agree: Adûnâi
    • Replies: @Truth3
    , @antibeast
    , @Adûnâi
  199. antibeast says:
    @Adûnâi

    East Asian Confucianists follow the ‘Laws of Heaven’ — not the Darwinian ‘Laws of the Jungle’ — to create a Society and a State based on a moral order.”

    Would you care to explain the difference? From what I know, the Chinese: 1) respected their ancestors – quite Darwinian; 2) expanded on all fronts, colonized the South – quite Darwinian; 3) always rose up against foreigners – quite Darwinian.

    The Confucianist philosophy which underlie much of East Asia seeks to establish a social and political order based on a certain moral and spiritual ethos which view Humanity as connected beings organized in harmony with Heaven and Earth. For an introduction to Confucianism, see this link:

    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1000bce_confucius_intro.htm

    The failure of Confucianism was its inability to face the changed struggle against modernised Japan.

    Quite the opposite, the collapse of the Confucianist social and political order brought about by greed and vice due to the Opium Trade led to the decline and fall of the Qing Dynasty. The Manchu rulers lost their “Mandate of Heaven” for their failure to follow the Laws of Heaven which led to the Taiping Rebellion, Boxer Rebellion and finally the Xinhai Revolution that toppled the Qing Dynasty. The KMT, likewise, failed to establish a social and political order based on the Laws of Heaven which paved the way for the CPC to win the Chinese Civil War and establish the PRC.

    From a Western point-of-view, Western history is in fact a by-product of social and political Darwinism, from the Greek city-states to the Roman Empire, from the Fall of Rome to the Germanic conquests, from the Muslim conquests to the Crusades, and from the Age of European Imperialism to the USA Empire, two thousand five hundred years of “Darwinian” struggle for survival of the fittest amongst rulers, and between rulers and their subjects. Westerners have never experienced anything but a savage existence throughout their entire history, with the exception of a few civilized periods such as the Italian Renaissance, the German Hanseatic League and the Cold War. Westerners are so used to fighting, raping, stealing and killing each other that they mistake the Confucianist emphasis on “order” as a sign of East Asian “weakness” and prefer “Darwinian” chaos (which the Chinese call “乱”) as a sign of Western “freedom”.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  200. Truth3 says:
    @Truth3

    By the way, Jews farting in elevators is a thing…

    In New York, it’s called… Manhattan Gas & Light Co.

    In Miami, it’s called… Point at the Cubano

    In Hollywood, it’s called… That was for Mel Gibson

    In Paris, it’s called… Who Cut the Fromage?

    In Tel Aviv, it’s called… Our Shit Don’t Stink… to Us

    • Troll: showmethereal
  201. @AnonCN

    Damn, this was very refreshing.

  202. @Sean

    Nice. Coming to the defense of a fellow worker I see. Good for you.

    • Replies: @Sean
  203. Sean says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    A lot of people on here call commeters Zionist agents. But if you had read the comment properly you would see I was agreeing with Giraldi. Right at the end I used the word ‘Bantustans’, which no Zionist would use. While it was not a simple argument I made in the comment and perhaps the point was obscurely made, it was far from incomprehensible to anyone willing to even try and exert their brain. Beaten down by complexity, you have learnt helplessness.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  204. denk says:
    @ivan

    India, not incidentally nations who trust the Chicoms only as far as they can throw them

    Your daddy must be turning in his grave…
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/05/28/after-failure-of-covid-19-bioweapon-trumps-turns-to-india-as-weapon-against-china/

    For the uninitiated,
    UNZ’s resident Indian troll, Ivan, got its name from his dad, who admired the USSR.

  205. Truth3 says:
    @R.C

    …but i will not respond to your future comments, if you keep wanting to throw viscous attacks.

    Seems pretty thick to me.

  206. geokat62 says:

    Looks like this angle of the George Floyd story is gaining traction…

    Former Atlanta Mayor: Rejects Demand to Stop Police Training With Israel

    • Thanks: AnonStarter, ChuckOrloski
    • Replies: @Talha
  207. Herald says:
    @A123

    So now you have joined the list of suspects. The zio-troll doth protest too much, it seems.

  208. denk says:
    @R.C

    I’ve re-read your entire rants and find nuthin to support your claim that,
    Du was equally likely to be killed by CIA or cHINESE intel.

    On motive…
    FUKUS has every motive to keep China outta its ‘home turf’, Israel.
    This is indisputable fact.

    OTOH,
    Your contention, CCP killed Du cuz he wanted to defect, based on what …..
    fukus ‘ex intel’ !
    Are you kidding me ?

    ON CUI BONO ?
    Another Chinese foreign investment bite the dust.
    Since you’ve been ‘hanging around’ here, should know what I mean right ?

    Who’s the means . ?
    CIA wet jobs on domestic/foreign lands are legend, I presume you need no introduction on that either. ?

    BUt hey, as someone who’s been observing the sino scene for decades,
    I’ve not the faintest idea that Chinese intel are such mean customers, beating fukus on its own game, executing a wet job on [[[their]]] home ground, right under the nose of CIA/MOSSAD ???

    Forchrissake !
    Chinese intel are sooo notorious,
    anybody here know their alphabet name ?
    is it CI, doesnt sound as pro as CIA/MI6/MOSSAD.

    LOL

  209. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    商鞅指出专制政治的理论基础是法家而非儒家。但中国的问题是太多大陆人没有道德,没有理想,没有纪律。 你看日本人的纪律, 日本政府不必使用武力统治它们。 但在中国,政府必须使用武力来统治大陆人。这个社会问题是道德问题,不是政治问题。政府必须用儒家方法来改变社会行为和加强道德行为。

    • Troll: thetruth
    • Replies: @R.C
    , @thetruth
  210. FLgeezer says:
    @AaronB

    >Right, like putting your knees on an already subdued mans neck for 8 minutes until he dies is a cutting edge anti-terror “technique” that low level civilian beat cops had to go to Israel to learn…

    Yes, AaronB, we stupid goy had to be schooled in police brutality. You claim to have invented everything else, why not that too?

    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-death-in-herzliya/#comment-3926010

  211. Ron Unz says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    There has been zero deaths in any internal CCP power struggle that I am aware of since 1980 in China.

    One odd consequence of the global dominance of American MSM is that educated people everywhere often tend to develop a misperception of the distribution of lethal conflict in different political systems.

    For example, here’s an article of mine from a couple of years ago in which I noted the remarkable number of top-ranking American political figures who died under extremely suspicious circumstances in the period immediately following World War II:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-deadly-world-of-post-war-politics/

    If anything comparable had then happened in other leading powers such as the USSR, China, or Britain, the events would have become a centerpiece of histories, but I had remained almost entirely unaware of them in the US until fairly recently.

    Similarly, 20th century American politics had been littered with extremely high-profile assassinations, including Huey Long, JFK, RFK, and numerous others.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  212. @Anon

    invasion of India

    I knew the BBC had some fairly major problems in it’s inability to distinguish between cooking and dancing shows, and it’s actual remit of professional world news coverage. But if they’ve missed this little matter they’ re really rather too far gone to worry about.

    Altogether, the strangest 32 lines I’ve read for a while. I don’t know where you’re getting your China coverage, but I hope you’re not paying for it. Stick around. The Unz Review will help you to recover.

  213. @The Observer

    Let me get this straight:

    You DON’T think the assassination of an Ambassador, in a three-way tie-up between some of the most corrupt and dangerous nations on earth, for a lucrative and world-changing technological platform, is any kind of significant political development – or is worthy of a short and concise article on arguably the most important current-affairs website currently publishing ?

    Cretin alert.

  214. @A123

    A 57 year old smoker died in his bed from smoking related complications

    LOL

    Yes, of course. Because a newly-appointed – and newly-health-checked – new Ambassador lies down in his bed – and dies immediately with no symptoms of the lung cancer which takes on average 1-2 years to kill everyone else after diagnosis – and he wasn’t even diagnosed. If he had been, he wouldn’t have been sent out to Israel for the next x years – would he ?

    Congratulations…!! for the bat-shit stupidest comment on the interweb this week !! Your zio-nazi stupidity really IS as severe as everyone here says it is !

  215. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @ivan

    a leak from the L4 lab

    Really?

    A leak that coincidentally, conveniently occurred such that the effects would peak exactly during the Chinese New Year holiday, when the greatest internal human migration in the world takes place right through the same city as the leak?

    A leak can happen anywhere, anytime. For example:

    A leak during Chinese New Year, but in another city in China that does not host massive flows of people (not in Wuhan) OR

    A leak in a major Chinese transport hub (Wuhan), but not during the period during which that hub is most intensively in use (Chinese New Year).

    But a bio-leak at the precise time, and the precise place, that it would do the absolute most damage? That’s supposed to be a “coincidence”?

    What are the chances of such a “perfect storm pandemic”? Very near to mathematically ZERO.

    That spells deliberate Biological Warfare.

    • Agree: FLgeezer
    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  216. @Ron Unz

    I think those who are used to the killings in the US politics might automatically assumed it is the same in other political systems, if not worst. Especially when they also assumed the American political system to be the superior one. If RC really was born in mainland China, I am 100% sure he grew up in the west. Not as delusional as gordon chang but at least half way there.

    I will check out that article tonight.

  217. @Sean

    Sorry, once a Zionist, always a Zionist.

    Deep cover doesn’t do anything for you.

    As for helplessness in dealing with Zionists, it is true. As an American, what can I do when even the leaders of this country is essentially licking Israeli ass every single day? They will be dealt with when a bloody revolution occurs in the future. No idea when though as the American system is designed to suppress and deflate all dissent.

    • Replies: @Ann Nonny Mouse
  218. Athena says:

    Americans, you are in the midst of a coup.

    So programmer, coders, engineers, technicians, mathematicians, scientists, you must rally now.

    The problem with these people in the Senate is that they never change. They will never change. You’re wasting your time because it’s never going to happen.

    https://www.newsbud.com/2020/05/29/a-nwo-coup-in-effect-what-we-can-do-part-2/

  219. Alberto says:

    What kind of crap reporting is this? “…the assassination of Iranian Major General Qassim Soleimani in January, carried out by a feckless U.S. national security team heedless of consequences.” That’s just stupid. My opinion of your opinion just went down the s***hole!

  220. geokat62 says:

    The ADL is a terrorist organization inciting violence against whites:

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @geokat62
  221. geokat62 says:

  222. @geokat62

    ADL = Absolutely Duplicitous Loudmouths

  223. Adûnâi says:
    @antibeast

    > http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1000bce_confucius_intro.htm

    Thanks for the link!

    > “From a Western point-of-view, Western history is in fact a by-product of social and political Darwinism…”

    How can you say this if Europe has endured the burden of Christianity for 2000 years? You can clearly see that the Europeans could have exterminated all non-Whites by the early 20th century, yet chose the opposite – share their technology and their women with them instead.

    > “Quite the opposite, the collapse of the Confucianist social and political order brought about by greed and vice due to the Opium Trade led to the decline and fall of the Qing Dynasty.”

    But that Manchu dynasty was not even Chinese. And Europe vastly surpassed China in weapons. And China was overall not prepared for huge upheavals, but you can’t really blame them for that, as Vikings had never reached China, or the Arabs, or the Celts. And then Japan demolished both Korea and China with Western weapons.

  224. Adûnâi says:
    @R.C

    > “You have a very simple understanding of Darwinism. And to respond to your previous message, Darwinism was not introduced as a mainland China only culture. In fact, the formal theories were first introduced in the late Qing dynasty by the scholar ‘严复’and his book ‘天演论’.”

    That’s a fascinating comment overall, thanks. But are you familiar with the book Social Darwinism and Nationalism in Korea: The Beginnings 1880s-1910s Survival As an Ideology of Korean Modernity by Vladimir Tikhonov?

    https://libgen.lc/ads.php?md5=43A69A8A8DDBAA29AACD4093BC08A0EB

    • Replies: @R.C
  225. Adûnâi says:
    @Trinity

    > “(((They))) have just about bled America white with (((their))) wars”

    America has been in a state of perpetual peace since 1945.

    > “(((coronavirus)))”

    What do you mean? That Israel made America slack behind in their response? That Israel manufactored the coronavirus? That Israel made up the coronavirus?

    You’re a schizo, Trinity.

  226. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adûnâi

    And China was overall not prepared for huge upheavals

    “China” is what would have happened had Rome defeated all of its rivals and then been so resilient that it kept rising again after every defeat, for almost 2,200 years.

    Before that, the East Asia region only knew total warfare in the Age of Warring Nation-States – literally different cultures, who thought of themselves as distinct races, although variations on a theme (think of the differences and yet broad similarities among Athenian, Spartan, Macedonian, Carthaginian and Roman cultures – vicious wars were fought, yet all were clearly Mediterranean peoples).

    Add to this the fact that what seems like peaceful Asia today, sharing space with the Chinese, were the original homelands of some truly apocalyptic “barbarians” – Huns, Asiatic Turks (central Mongolia), Mongols (eastern Mongolia/north China) and Manchus (Manchuria/north China) and even the pre-Buddhist Tibetans, plus the stubborn Koreans and the ever-warlike Japanese.

    China not only survived all of that, but still managed to advance all throughout. 3/4 of the time it was the dominant power, 1/4 of the time it was internally divided, beaten down, and vulnerable to horrific attack. In the West, we remember mostly China’s periods of weakness – the popular stereotype, as it were. But China was the ancestor-civilization of their part of the world, East Asia.

    Recently, China had not been at war since 1700 A.D. or so, and they had never encountered or even heard about anyone technologically superior – not even through the Silk Road connecting China, India, Persia, Central Asia, the Middle East, the Ottomans and the Mediterranean and Medieval European peoples.

    Well there’s a first time for everything, and what matters is how your civilization responds to technologically superior outsiders.

    • Agree: Adûnâi
    • Replies: @R.C
  227. antibeast says:
    @Adûnâi

    How can you say this if Europe has endured the burden of Christianity for 2000 years? You can clearly see that the Europeans could have exterminated all non-Whites by the early 20th century, yet chose the opposite – share their technology and their women with them instead.

    I specifically described “Western” history as 2,500 years of “Darwinist” struggle for survival of the fittest. The East has had a different history from the West with Eastern Orthodox Christianity playing the central role in the moral, spiritual, social and cultural life of Eastern Europe. Westerners did export their history of savagery to the world, starting with the American Holocaust with the Spanish Conquistadores destroying the Mesoamerican Civilizations and exterminating the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and ending with the European Holocaust. That’s what I meant by describing Western history as a “Darwinist” struggle for survival in a “dog-eat-dog” environment of savagery, unencumbered by any sort of morality or spirituality, Christian or otherwise.

    But that Manchu dynasty was not even Chinese. And Europe vastly surpassed China in weapons. And China was overall not prepared for huge upheavals, but you can’t really blame them for that, as Vikings had never reached China, or the Arabs, or the Celts. And then Japan demolished both Korea and China with Western weapons.

    The Manchus started out as alien rulers but became Chinese over time. And as a warlike tribe, they expanded Chinese territory to twice its size by military conquest. Unlike Japan, China under the Qing failed to modernize itself because the arrogant Manchus became too insular to the point of banning foreign trade with the West as well as ignoring the advances in industrial technology in the West. In contrast, the Japanese decided early on to learn and adopt Western technology while retaining their East Asian culture. After the Meiji Restoration, Japan had successfully transformed itself from the feudal rule of the shoguns into a modern nation-state with Imperial Shintoism as the state religion enshrining Emperor-worship. By the 20th century, Japan was able to defeat China and Russia in two wars which demonstrated its arrival as an East Asian power which the British acknowledged by entering into an alliance with the Japanese.

    The Japanese defeat of China and Russia shocked Chinese intellectuals who then began promoting the “Westernization” of China which resulted in the May 4th Movement. This silly nonsense didn’t stop with writers like Lu Xun (鲁迅) stereotyping Chinese peasants as “Ah Q” nincompoops which would most accurately describe today’s 大陆土豪 who only care about “getting rich is glorious” in Deng’s China. Unlike Japan which never gave up its Confucianist/Buddhist culture which originated in China, these latter-day Ah Qs — 大陆土豪 — having given up their Confucianist/Buddhist culture of Old China, now admire anything Western so they send their 富二代 to Western countries so they can party and enjoy the morally repugnant and culturally degenerate Western ghetto-nigger animal sex’drugs’n’roll lifestyles. By way of comparison, Singapore, a former British colony, sent its best and brightest students to Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, etc. and came back completely disillusioned with and completely rejected Western Liberalism as unsuitable for their newly-established Asian country. They then proceeded to build Singapore to become one of the richest countries in the world, with one of the highest GDP per capita, human development index, health care index, and world-class technology and finance industries while reclaiming and promoting their Asian languages, cultures and religions. And what do every Singaporean male upon reaching the age of 18 do? They serve in the Singapore Armed Forces as part of their mandatory two-year National Service.

    • Replies: @R.C
    , @showmethereal
  228. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Here we go…

    Peace.

  229. R.C says:
    @antibeast

    To that i certainly agree with you that the lack of moral standards and ethics is a real issue in mainland China at the moment. Reconstruction of Chinese ethics based on Confucius line would certainly help. Lately in the last couple of years, it is very much improving with better education on ancient Chinese classics and Confucius traditions. But i don’t think this would be a fast or easy process

    • Replies: @antibeast
  230. R.C says:
    @antibeast

    I would like to differ your observation regarding mainland China versus Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and oversea Chinese diaspora. Out of all the above countries, regions and groups you have mentioned, China is the only country which is actually sovereign which has never being completely colonized and does not have to bow to the demand of global homo in the modern politics. Indisputably, many ‘富二代’ were sent to the West for partying. Many more scientists and engineers are also sent abroad to study and they are bringing back very valuable knowledge and a lot of Western know-hows every year. A lot of them are leading the Chinese research projects and are the backbones of the country’s R&D. It is not like those other places are much better than China at keeping out the degenerate influence from the West. It is in fact Taiwan that has the largest Gay pride parade in the continent of Asia outside of Israel, along with the absurd Western green party idea of getting rid of nuclear power plants and generate electricity with love (用爱发电). Wonder where they got those ideas from. Certainly not from the thousands of year of Chinese tradition. When Asia modernize, different regions adopted different foreign ideological elements either willingly or unwillingly. It is the mainland China, North Korea, Vietnam and Mongolia that adopted the Soviet influence and others (Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) were instead influenced more by the Anglos. Consider how popular Protestant Christianity is becoming in some of those countries and regions influenced by the Anglos, it is difficult to argue who is in fact more Confucius. Instead like the West, in East Asia, we are also suffering from the influence of modernity and still trying to adapt to it.

  231. R.C says:
    @Adûnâi

    Thanks for the response. No, i am particularly familiar of that work you mentioned. But i will try to read it up.

  232. R.C says:
    @Anonymous

    That’s right, China is a civilization in the form of a country. It has a Pan-Asian aspect. Much like if majority of the Whites would unite into a single nation. And other parts of East Asia were historically pretty much in the Pax-Sinica civilization sphere.

    • Replies: @Talha
  233. ‘… but one might recall the assassination of Iranian Major General Qassim Soleimani in January, carried out by a feckless U.S. national security team heedless of consequences.’

    Yes; but in that case, the attack was carried out at Israel’s behest. If this too was an assassination, it would have been the opposite.

  234. Talha says:
    @R.C

    China is a civilization in the form of a country. It has a Pan-Asian aspect. Much like if majority of the Whites would unite into a single nation.

    Very interesting – didn’t think about this before. In that sense, it is somewhat analogous to India.

    As you well know, multiple attempts to unite China historically were extremely bloody affairs. I was shocked when I read the history; since they’ve kept population records for so long.

    Europe had multiple attempts at unification as well; everything from under Rome to Charlemagne to later ones like Napoleon. All pretty bloody affairs. I think that is simply the price you have to pay for something like that.

    Peace.

  235. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    China is an East Asian country not a Western one. Chinese are East Asians not White Westerners.

    Mainland Chinese need to look at East Asia not the West and study how East Asians such as the Japanese and Singaporeans preserved their Confucianist/Buddhist values while becoming modern, industrialized nations. Many Japanese and Singaporeans went to study in the West during their formative years and came back completely disillusioned with Western culture. Even Singapore, a former British colony, rejected Western liberalism as incompatible with Asian values.

    If the mainland Chinese want to modernize Chinese society, they have to look back at their own cultural heritage and create a modern version of those cultural values. Otherwise, mainland Chinese will only feel lost in the greed, lust and vices which come with all the material wealth that economic prosperity brings. The Chinese government cannot legislate morality but it can support Chinese society to organize the lives of Chinese citizens according to the moral, ethical, spiritual, aesthetic and intellectual values of Classical and Traditional Chinese Culture.

    • Replies: @Talha
  236. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    I would like to differ your observation regarding mainland China versus Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and oversea Chinese diaspora. Out of all the above countries, regions and groups you have mentioned, China is the only country which is actually sovereign which has never being completely colonized and does not have to bow to the demand of global homo in the modern politics. Indisputably, many ‘富二代’ were sent to the West for partying. Many more scientists and engineers are also sent abroad to study and they are bringing back very valuable knowledge and a lot of Western know-hows every year. A lot of them are leading the Chinese research projects and are the backbones of the country’s R&D. It is not like those other places are much better than China at keeping out the degenerate influence from the West. It is in fact Taiwan that has the largest Gay pride parade in the continent of Asia outside of Israel, along with the absurd Western green party idea of getting rid of nuclear power plants and generate electricity with love (用爱发电). Wonder where they got those ideas from. Certainly not from the thousands of year of Chinese tradition. When Asia modernize, different regions adopted different foreign ideological elements either willingly or unwillingly. It is the mainland China, North Korea, Vietnam and Mongolia that adopted the Soviet influence and others (Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) were instead influenced more by the Anglos. Consider how popular Protestant Christianity is becoming in some of those countries and regions influenced by the Anglos, it is difficult to argue who is in fact more Confucius. Instead like the West, in East Asia, we are also suffering from the influence of modernity and still trying to adapt to it.

    You’re talking about the politics of the State while I am talking about the culture of Society. Yes, most of those places are either former colonies or client States of Western Powers. But they did retain their East Asian cultural identity even in places like HK or Singapore where Confucianists/Buddhists outnumber Roman Catholics/Protestant Christians. In fact, the Chinese immigrants built lots of Buddhist Temples and Confucian Clan/Village Associations in HK and Singapore despite being ruled by their British Overlords. Taiwan is the same although young Taiwanese today are being influenced by Western trends especially coming from the USA. But they’re still East Asians not White Westerners.

    Why do mainland Chinese spend all these monies hiring laowais to teach mediocre English to their children? Because Mainland Chinese today find it fashionable to learn English which they think would make them look “modern”. But the Japanese hardly ever learned English and yet their world-class companies are global leaders in manufacturing and technology industries. The rich Overseas Chinese (华桥) families don’t send their children to the West to party and enjoy life but to study for their MBAs so they can return to Asia to manage their family businesses. And the richer they are, the more traditional and conservative they become.

    • Replies: @d dan
  237. Talha says:
    @antibeast

    Otherwise, mainland Chinese will only feel lost in the greed, lust and vices which come with all the material wealth that economic prosperity brings.

    THIS!

    The Chinese government cannot legislate morality but it can support Chinese society to organize the lives of Chinese citizens according to the moral, ethical, spiritual, aesthetic and intellectual values of Classical and Traditional Chinese Culture.

    I definitely look forward to something like this happening; I wonder what trajectory it will take. Are you thinking something akin to Falun Gong – or literally rolling back things and having people study more and more of Tao, Confucian and Buddhist traditions? And would that be in official school, or how would that work?

    And more importantly; do you have anything you can link to that shows a nascent program or project by the Chinese government in this direction?

    Peace.

  238. d dan says:
    @antibeast

    antibeast: thanks for the multiple interesting and insightful posts in this thread (and others). Keep up with the good works. I wish more readers from mainland can read you writing.

    My respects to you.

  239. thetruth says:
    @antibeast

    what you said is a bunch of nonsense!! look at what happened in Wuhan during this pandemic!! Significantly HIGHER Proportion of Mainland Chinese medical professionals have shown MUCH HIGHER moral standards than ANY of the Western medical professions as well as those from HK or Taiwan!! They put Other’s lives ahead of their own!!

    Same thing happened in Mainland China during SARS. Nurse/doctors in HK were quitting due to they were afraid of getting infected by the virus, while medical professionals in Mainland China ALL put others lives ahead of their own!!

    plus, 99.9% of those Selfless Medical Professionals in Mainland China who put others’ lives ahead of their own are CCP Members!!! they are the TRUE Heroes!

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  240. @antibeast

    I don’t even believe in IQ because innate intelligence of a people per se does not determine socio-economic progress.

    IQ doesn’t purport to be a determinant of socio-economic progress.

  241. geokat62 says:

    Even RT is picking up on this angle of the story…

    RT: Almost ALL US Police Commanders Learn To Violate Human Rights While Training In Israel

    • Replies: @Larchmonter420
  242. antibeast says:
    @R.C

    Just to add more to my reply to your comment below about Japan:

    I would like to differ your observation regarding mainland China versus Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and oversea Chinese diaspora. Out of all the above countries, regions and groups you have mentioned, China is the only country which is actually sovereign which has never being completely colonized and does not have to bow to the demand of global homo in the modern politics.

    Prior to WWII, Japan was never colonized by any Western Power unlike China where certain cities such as HK, Macao, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Xiamen, etc. became foreign “concessions” as part of the Treaties of Nanjing and Tianjin after the Opium Wars. Christian missionaries and foreign merchants arrived and settled in those cities where a great number of mainland Chinese became influenced by Western languages, religions, cultures and ideologies especially in Shanghai where the Western colonial influence can still be felt today in the Bund. This is why the Western-educated elites such as the Chinese intellectuals leading the May 4th Movement advocated for the wholesale “Westernization” of China including the Chinese Communist Party which was founded in Shanghai.

    That kind of “Westernization” did not happen in Japan when Commodore Dewey forced Japan to open its isolationist policy instituted by the Tokugawa Shogunate which led to the Meiji Restoration where political power shifted away from the shoguns to the Emperor. The Japanese reformers decided to study and adopt Western technology but retained their East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity by establishing a modern bureaucratic nation-state based on State Shinto with Emperor-worship. Until then, folk Shinto was just an animist religion based on the worship of nature spirits. But the Japanese felt the need to create an official religion because they saw that the West had Christianity where G-d was worshiped through his son, Jesus Christ. So they invented the myth of the Japanese Emperor who would now be worshipped as the divine descendant of the Sun Goddess, Amaterasu. After the Japanese had succeeded in creating a modern, centralized, bureaucratic nation-state under State Shinto by getting rid of the feudal rule of the shoguns, Japan quickly learned and adopted Western technology and industrialized their economy within one generation. By the end of the 19th century and early 20th century, Japan defeated China in the First Sino-Japanese War and later defeated Russia in the First Russo-Japanese War to become an East Asian power in their own right. And that forced the British to enter into an alliance with Japan to protect their economic interests in China.

    Did Imperial Japan “Westernize” the Japanese to become a modern nation-state? Did Imperial Japan adopt Western religions such as Protestant Christianity or Roman Catholicism, Western ideologies such as Liberal Democracy or Marxism, Western languages such as English or French to become an industrialized economy and military power? Did Imperial Japan “get rid” of their East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity?

    The Western-inspired intellectuals leading China’s May 4th Movement were too impressed with Western ideologies, cultures, languages and religions so much so that they advocated for the wholesale rejection of China’s East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity which was opposed by anti-Western Confucianist Scholars and pro-Nationalist leaders. By the time Emperor Meiji passed away in 1912, Imperial Japan was internationally acknowledged as Asia’s leading industrial and military power while post-Qing China was plunged into Civil War because the Chinese intellectuals leading the May 4th Movement were the real culprits who caused China’s cultural nihilism and political anarchy, not Chinese culture, religion, tradition and civilization!!!

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Thanks: Rurik
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @GammaRay
  243. Talha says:
    @antibeast

    The Western-inspired intellectuals leading China’s May 4th Movement were too impressed with Western ideologies, cultures, languages and religions so much so that they advocated for the wholesale rejection of China’s East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity

    **cough** Ataturk **cough**

    Peace.

  244. Even RT is picking up on this angle of the story…

    RT: Almost ALL US Police Commanders Learn To Violate Human Rights While Training In Israel

    Russiagate just turned to Israelgate:

    FBI Docs Reveal That Without Direct Israeli ‘Intervention’ Trump Would Have Lost 2016 Election.

    The FBI material, which is heavily redacted, includes one explicit reference to Israel and one to Jerusalem, and a series of references to a minister, a cabinet minister, a “minister without portfolio in the cabinet dealing with issues concerning defense and foreign affairs,” the PM, and the Prime Minister. In all these references the names and countries of the minister and prime minister are redacted.

    This story also explains why the jewish-controlled press saturated the airwaves with fake stories of “Russian” intervention in the election — and why we will be seeing similar non-stop stories of “Chinese” intervention in the upcoming 2020 election in November.

    And Netanyahu hasn’t wasted a second of Trump’s presidency in expanding Israel’s power, territory and influence.

    As one Jewish media pundit claimed, Donald Trump has been “the greatest president for Jews and for Israel in the history of the world.”

    And even if the brain-dead American public found out about this Israeli intervention (i.e., “subversion of our democracy”), they would probably just shrug it off — after all, Israel is our “most trusted friend and ally,”

    https://russia-insider.com/en/fbi-docs-reveal-without-direct-israeli-intervention-trump-would-have-lost-2016-election/ri30427

    • Replies: @Larchmonter420
  245. @geokat62

    Even RT is picking up on this angle of the story…

    RT: Almost ALL US Police Commanders Learn To Violate Human Rights While Training In Israel

    Hello my brother Geo,

    Thanks for posting such an excellent video. See my above comment as Russiagate is now turned into Israelgate!

    Good times are ahead!

    • Thanks: geokat62
  246. @Larchmonter420

    Russiagate just turned to Israelgate!

    Amen!

    It seems like the fat lady has finally started to sing…..

  247. geokat62 says:

    This wasn’t an isolated case. It appears Chauvin was following SOP.

    Excerpts from, Minneapolis police rendered 44 people unconscious with neck restraints in five years: Several police experts said that number appears to be unusually high. “By using this tactic, it’s a self-fulfilling tragedy,” said one.

    Since the beginning of 2015, officers from the Minneapolis Police Department have rendered people unconscious with neck restraints 44 times, according to an NBC News analysis of police records. Several police experts said that number appears to be unusually high.

    Minneapolis police used neck restraints at least 237 times during that span, and in 16 percent of the incidents the suspects and other individuals lost consciousness, the department’s use-of-force records show. A lack of publicly available use-of-force data from other departments makes it difficult to compare Minneapolis to other cities of the same or any size…

    The version of the Minneapolis Police Department’s policy manual that is available on-line, however, does permit the use of neck restraints that can render suspects unconscious, and the protocol for their use appears not to have been updated for more than eight years…

    The on-line version of the policy manual says, “The unconscious neck restraint shall only be applied … 1. On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or; 2. For life saving purposes, or; 3. On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.”
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-neck-restraints-five-years-n1220416

    This is the big news story the major media outlets should be covering.

  248. Adûnâi says:
    @Anonymous

    > “But a bio-leak at the precise time, and the precise place, that it would do the absolute most damage? That’s supposed to be a “coincidence”?”

    But who did it? 1) Evil Judeo-Christians;

    2) the Juche Koreans trying to destroy capitalism and the Christian Koreans from the Shinji cult trying to bring about the End of All Things;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shincheonji_Church_of_Jesus

    3) disgruntled scientists at the lab.

    https://chechar.wordpress.com/2020/04/09/a-chinese-dr-peters/

  249. Adûnâi says:
    @thetruth

    > “Same thing happened in Mainland China during SARS. Nurse/doctors in HK were quitting due to they were afraid of getting infected by the virus, while medical professionals in Mainland China ALL put others lives ahead of their own!!”

    Then how would you address this prank / social experiment video made by the subversives from Formosa? It purportedly showcases how the Mainland Chinese demonstrably ignore the plight of their fellow citizens when those are being kidnapped.

  250. Gyre07 says:

    That’s good. Israel just put itself in the cross-hairs of China.

  251. GammaRay says:
    @antibeast

    You’re talking about the politics of the State while I am talking about the culture of Society. Yes, most of those places are either former colonies or client States of Western Powers. But they did retain their East Asian cultural identity even in places like HK or Singapore where Confucianists/Buddhists outnumber Roman Catholics/Protestant Christians.

    IME taiwanese or hongkong people seem vastly more soft, and mentally cucked than mainland chinese people, this is in spite of these diaspora groups ostensibly retaining more traditional chinese culture. What good is retaining your east asian cultural identity if you still end up being a cuck for the west? If given the choice between retaining my cultural identity but being a cuck, or shedding some of my cultural identity but being a man then I would gladly shed some of my cultural identity. Cultural identity is not the end all be all, and besides its not like mainland china completely lost their cultural identity anyways

    Why do mainland Chinese spend all these monies hiring laowais to teach mediocre English to their children? Because Mainland Chinese today find it fashionable to learn English which they think would make them look “modern”.

    you’re reading too much into it. Mainland china is still a developing country and as such it still lacks a certain confidence in its own culture. This will change in time as china becomes more developed and feels less of a need to impress others.

    But the Japanese hardly ever learned English and yet their world-class companies are global leaders in manufacturing and technology industries.

    yeah…but japan also got a massive “advantage” due to it being a virtual colony of the US after WW2. The US wanted to build up japan in order to make it a strong outpost against communism in east asia. Japan didn’t get to where it was in a vacuum like you seem to be implying

    The rich Overseas Chinese (华桥) families don’t send their children to the West to party and enjoy life but to study for their MBAs so they can return to Asia to manage their family businesses. And the richer they are, the more traditional and conservative they become.

    whats wrong with partying and enjoying life? Sure some (or even lots) of rich mainland chinese send their children to the west to do this but this doesnt account for the millions(?) of mainland chinese that get educated in the west and then bring those skills back to china. As far as im concerned, the rich mainland chinese that send their children to the west to party and enjoy life are a drop in the bucket compared to the countless mainland chinese that come over for an education and then return. If you want to criticize mainland chinese then this is not really a good way to do it

    Prior to WWII, Japan was never colonized by any Western Power unlike China where certain cities such as HK, Macao, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Xiamen, etc. became foreign “concessions” as part of the Treaties of Nanjing and Tianjin after the Opium Wars. Christian missionaries and foreign merchants arrived and settled in those cities where a great number of mainland Chinese became influenced by Western languages, religions, cultures and ideologies especially in Shanghai where the Western colonial influence can still be felt today in the Bund. This is why the Western-educated elites such as the Chinese intellectuals leading the May 4th Movement advocated for the wholesale “Westernization” of China including the Chinese Communist Party which was founded in Shanghai.

    japan was actually being colonized in a similar manner that you claimed china was being colonized in:

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/japan-colonized

    japans only benefit was that the western powers were too busy devouring china to focus their energies on japan. This is why japan was given a chance to develop on the sidelines while china had to deal with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies

    That kind of “Westernization” did not happen in Japan when Commodore Dewey forced Japan to open its isolationist policy instituted by the Tokugawa Shogunate which led to the Meiji Restoration where political power shifted away from the shoguns to the Emperor.

    commodore dewey? you mean commodore perry? Anyways, you’re comparing apples and oranges. China and japan each had a unique set of circumstances that they were dealing with at the time. Its unfair to make this kind of comparison. Of course it was easy for japan to get its house in order, its a fraction the size of china and has a fraction of the population as well. Scale is a real phenomena, its not easy to organize a population of ~450 million over a landmass as large as china WHILE you’re being antagonized by multiple other aggressive and technologically more advanced foreign countries; compare this to japan which is around the size of california, only had a population of ~33 million and also had the benefit of being able to largely sit on the sidelines while china got raped. There is no way to credibly compare the two, japan had every advantage in this situation compared to china, its not surprising that japan was able to succeed in the way that it did.

    Did Imperial Japan “Westernize” the Japanese to become a modern nation-state? Did Imperial Japan adopt Western religions such as Protestant Christianity or Roman Catholicism, Western ideologies such as Liberal Democracy or Marxism, Western languages such as English or French to become an industrialized economy and military power? Did Imperial Japan “get rid” of their East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity?

    Japan is japan and china is china. China has historically been a portal to the outside world for japan and korea. China has always been used to absorbing new ideas and different cultures, that’s literally what china does. In the end, china sinifies it all anyways. Just because japan was better at preserving its “easy asian identity” (whatever that means) doesn’t mean that its somehow better than china. Japan and china both play their own role in the east asian ecosystem, there is no need for japan to be more china-like and for china to be more japan-like, in a historical sense they both played their own individual roles and these individual roles that each country played in turn shaped their culture, their outlooks and probably their people as well. In other words, both japan and china are what they are, there’s no point in criticizing a cat for not being a donkey and vice versa.

    The Western-inspired intellectuals leading China’s May 4th Movement were too impressed with Western ideologies, cultures, languages and religions so much so that they advocated for the wholesale rejection of China’s East Asian Confucianist/Buddhist cultural identity which was opposed by anti-Western Confucianist Scholars and pro-Nationalist leaders.

    You didn’t live back then, you live now and have the benefit of hindsight. You have no idea how many of the chinese might have perceived the events that were happening back then. Keep in mind, it was china that bore the primary brunt of dealing with the western colonizers, not japan. The chinese got to deal with western superiority up close and personally, they were forced firsthand to understand the shortcomings and faults of traditional chinese culture, they didnt have the benefit of being able to stand on the sidelines and pick and choose the lessons that they could learn from this clash of worlds like japan was able to.

    By the time Emperor Meiji passed away in 1912, Imperial Japan was internationally acknowledged as Asia’s leading industrial and military power while post-Qing China was plunged into Civil War because the Chinese intellectuals leading the May 4th Movement were the real culprits who caused China’s cultural nihilism and political anarchy, not Chinese culture, religion, tradition and civilization!!!

    non-sense, utter non-sense. There is nothing sacrosanct about “traditional culture”, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, so its not just about chinese traditional culture. Just because culture is traditional doesnt always make it correct or even useful (although sometimes this is the case). Lets take something like foot-binding for example, is there anything useful about that? Its “traditional” right? But that doesn’t mean that its useful. Likewise there may have been lots of aspects about chinese traditional culture that were legitimately holding china back. Im not an expert at chinese traditional culture so I can’t say this for sure, but I’m willing to concede that the may 4th movement chinese intellectuals probably knew more about the advantages/disadvantages of chinese traditional culture than you or I do. They had a “front row seat” afterall. The reasons why japan flourished and china didnt in the early 20th century were very complex as I previously alluded to and didnt happen in a vacuum. To push all the blame on the may 4th movement intellectuals is sophomoric.

    The may 4th movement had their own role to play and in fact it demonstrates one of the best features of chinese civilization, namely the ability for self-criticism and objectivity. You’re short sighted if you don’t realize that even extremists have a role to play. If your culture and society is sufficiently ossified (like the chinese were around this time) then you need an equally strong force to break the ossificiation and restore balance. It’s incorrect to say that the may 4th movement was good or bad based on considering their actions in isolation, you have to consider their actions in a larger context to understand the utility of the may 4th movement. Its yin and yang and the may 4th movement was the yang (masculine, force, change) to the yin (feminine, inaction, sameness) which was an overly ossified and hidebound chinese culture that existed at that time. Had the may 4th movement never existed then it might have taken china even longer to develop and modernize, instead of the china we now know we might have ended up with something like india which is only partially modernized with wide areas of the country still stuck in their traditional and antiquated ways. Remember, china was a big country with a big population and a faltering central government at this time, it needed an equally big and decentralized impact in order to change the culture at a fundamental level, it didnt have the advantage of being able to strategically implement changes like smaller and centralized japan did.

    Traditional culture can be important yes, but dont overrate its importance. If traditional asian culture was so “good” then why was east asia relatively stagnant and weak until the west showed up and turned everything upside down? This isn’t an argument for inherent western superiority rather its an argument for being pragmatic and not placing undue importance on culture just because its traditional. To try to claim that east asian traditional culture is so sacred and awesome is an r/asianmasculinity tier cope and flies in the face of all the events that transpired over the past few centuries. Its more beneficial to be pragmatic than it is to be too idealistic. Look at the west afterall, one of the reasons its falling apart is because westerners have ceased to be pragmatic and instead are in love with their own idealized notions of what their civilization supposedly represents. Do you really want to be like this?

    • Replies: @FB
    , @antibeast
  252. FB says: • Website
    @GammaRay

    …westerners have ceased to be pragmatic and instead are in love with their own idealized notions of what their civilization supposedly represents.

    Do you really want to be like this?

    You mean like ‘Exceptionalism’…?

    Surely Saint Obama must have been right about that…?

    And if not, how many other sacred cows delusions are out there…?

    Let’s see…there’s the ‘failed’ socialism that just ‘doesn’t work’…

    I will leave it to readers to fill in the rest…plenty of material right here on this website…😀

  253. antibeast says:
    @GammaRay

    IME taiwanese or hongkong people seem vastly more soft, and mentally cucked than mainland chinese people, this is in spite of these diaspora groups ostensibly retaining more traditional chinese culture. What good is retaining your east asian cultural identity if you still end up being a cuck for the west? If given the choice between retaining my cultural identity but being a cuck, or shedding some of my cultural identity but being a man then I would gladly shed some of my cultural identity. Cultural identity is not the end all be all, and besides its not like mainland china completely lost their cultural identity anyways.

    Taiwan had been a client state of the USA since Chiang Kai-shek fled there after losing the Chinese Civil War in 1949. But Chiang never was a US puppet despite being treated as such by the Anglo-Americans due to the influence of his American-educated wife. In reality, he was a Fascist educated in Imperial Japan who openly admired Nazi Germany where he sent his adopted son who studied as a cadet and became as an officer in the German Army.

    After failing in mainland China, the USA pretty much left Chiang alone to rule Taiwan under Martial Law which lasted 38 years!!! The Chiang Dynasty ruled Taiwan as a military dictatorship for nearly four decades after which the pro-democracy movement succeeded in liberalizing Taiwanese society and politics based on Western Liberalism. Taiwanese politics has since devolved to mindless partisanship while Taiwanese society has degenerated into a cultural wasteland. In other words, the authoritarian Taiwan of the Chiang Dynasty which succeeded in transforming the semi-feudal, semi-colonial backwater of Taiwan into a modern, orderly, disciplined East Asian industrialized nation with world-class technology industries has now turned into the “democratic” Taiwan of homo rights, gay marriage, gangsta rap, negro worship, transgender children, etc.

    Japan was actually being colonized in a similar manner that you claimed china was being colonized. Japan’s only benefit was that the western powers were too busy devouring china to focus their energies on japan. This is why japan was given a chance to develop on the sidelines while china had to deal with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies.

    Ever heard of wakon yosai? It means Japanese spirit, Western technology. Although Japan had Westerners living and working there including Catholic missionaries who succeeded in converting large masses of Japanese, the Tokugawa Shogunate were quite hostile to anything foreign to the extent that they expelled those Catholic missionaries and persecuted Japanese Christians by conducting periodic massacres. After Commodore Perry forced the Tokugawa Shogunate to end its isolationist policy and accept unequal treaties (similar to the Treaties of Nanjing and Tianjin in China), the Japanese realized that they had to adopt Western technology in order to modernize their economy. That’s how the Meiji Restoration came to establish a modern centralized, bureaucratic Imperial State with State Shinto as the official State ideology/religion with the worship of the Emperor as the divine descendant of the Sun Goddess. They quickly learned and adopted Western technology and succeeded in industrializing their economy in one generation!!!

    non-sense, utter non-sense. There is nothing sacrosanct about “traditional culture”, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, so its not just about Chinese traditional culture. Just because culture is traditional doesn’t always make it correct or even useful (although sometimes this is the case). Lets take something like foot-binding for example, is there anything useful about that? Its “traditional” right? But that doesn’t mean that its useful. Likewise there may have been lots of aspects about Chinese traditional culture that were legitimately holding china back. I’m not an expert at Chinese traditional culture so I can’t say this for sure, but I’m willing to concede that the may 4th movement Chinese intellectuals probably knew more about the advantages/disadvantages of Chinese traditional culture than you or I do. They had a “front row seat” afterall. The reasons why Japan flourished and China didn’t in the early 20th century were very complex as I previously alluded to and didn’t happen in a vacuum. To push all the blame on the may 4th movement intellectuals is sophomoric.

    Qing China’s problem was not its Confucianist/Buddhist traditional culture, not its centralized, bureaucratic Imperial State nor its Confucianist political meritocracy but its pre-industrial, agrarian economy. The Qing reformers didn’t want to change Imperial China’s social and political system only its economic system but were opposed by Manchu obscurantists after the Taiping Rebellion failed due to Western support of the Qing Dynasty. (By the way, the Manchus invented stupid shit like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, medieval mysticism, etc. because they were illiterate barbarians who suffered from an inferiority complex towards and envious of Han Confucianists to whom they depended upon to rule the Chinese Empire. That’s their way of demonstrating how “superior” their barbarian ways were. Nothing “Confucianist/Buddhist” about those Manchu-shit.) If the Qing had succeeded in modernizing China’s pre-industrial economy by importing, studying and reverse-engineering Western technology such as steam engines, railroads, battleships, etc, then China could have defended itself against Japanese Imperialism which caused immense destruction to China after suffering a catastrophic collapse of its social order due to the cultural nihilism of the May 4th movement which echoed Mao’s Cultural Revolution in its anti-Confucian, anti-Asian, anti-religion cultural nihilism. In effect, the Chinese intellectuals of the May 4th movement served as Western-influenced Fifth-Columnists who subverted the moral and spiritual basis of Chinese society based on traditional Chinese Culture and Classical Chinese Civilization.

    Where Qing China failed is where Meiji Japan succeeded by copying China’s centralized, bureaucratic Imperial State with State Shinto as the official State ideology/religion. Before then, feudal Japan was ruled by shoguns, the warrior-class known as the samurai who ruled over hundreds of fiefdoms on land owned by the aristocracy called the daimyo, analogous to Western European medieval feudalism with landed, titled, hereditary aristocracies ruling over masses of landless serfs.

    You didn’t live back then, you live now and have the benefit of hindsight. You have no idea how many of the Chinese might have perceived the events that were happening back then. Keep in mind, it was china that bore the primary brunt of dealing with the western colonizers, not japan. The Chinese got to deal with western superiority up close and personally, they were forced firsthand to understand the shortcomings and faults of traditional Chinese culture, they didn’t have the benefit of being able to stand on the sidelines and pick and choose the lessons that they could learn from this clash of worlds like japan was able to.

    The Opium Wars are mere picnics compared to the extremely violent Taiping Rebellion which the Western Powers (UK and France) help suppressed in order to prop up the Qing Dynasty. In other words, the Manchus knew their reign was over but tried to hold on to their power by acting as puppet-rulers of the Western Powers. How difficult was it to reverse-engineer and then manufacture artillery, steam engines, railroads, locomotives, battleships, etc.? The Manchus didn’t want to do anything that could help China get rid of Western colonialists!!! That was China’s problem: Manchu obscurantism NOT traditional Chinese Culture of Confucianism/Buddhism which the Chinese intellectuals of the May 4th movement slandered and blamed for China’s predicament!!!

    Imperial Japan never gave up its East Asian identity — culture, ethnicity, religion, language, ideology, history, etc. — in favor of a pseudo-Western identity which the May 4th intellectuals had. That’s still true today for Western-influenced mainlanders like R.C. who read a few Western books and think that they know everything about the West.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  254. @Astuteobservor II

    Sorry, once a Zionist, always a Zionist.

    That is so, so easily refuted if a single Jew, a former Zionist, stands up and says, Today I am an anti-Zionist. Otherwise, you are proven correct.

  255. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    The ADL is a terrorist organization inciting violence against whites…

    • Thanks: ChuckOrloski
    • Replies: @A123
  256. A123 says:
    @geokat62

    CAIR and SPLC are Muslim terrorist organizations that should be eradicated.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Robjil
  257. GammaRay says:
    @antibeast

    Taiwan had been a client state of the USA since Chiang Kai-shek fled there after losing the Chinese Civil War in 1949. But Chiang never was a US puppet despite being treated as such by the Anglo-Americans due to the influence of his American-educated wife. In reality, he was a Fascist educated in Imperial Japan who openly admired Nazi Germany where he sent his adopted son who studied as a cadet and became as an officer in the German Army.

    lmao ok, keep boosting up chiang kaishek. Are you trying to make me think he’s “edgy” or cool because he was a fascist? LOL. The fact is, he was a US puppet because he served US interests in helping to contain china, the same as south korea or japan. He directly played an important role in empowering and supporting western (US) supremacy in east asia. I dont know why you are trying so hard to dance around this reality and act as if chiang kaishek was anything but a puppet. just stop dude

    After failing in mainland China, the USA pretty much left Chiang alone to rule Taiwan under Martial Law which lasted 38 years!!! The Chiang Dynasty ruled Taiwan as a military dictatorship for nearly four decades after which the pro-democracy movement succeeded in liberalizing Taiwanese society and politics based on Western Liberalism. Taiwanese politics has since devolved to mindless partisanship while Taiwanese society has degenerated into a cultural wasteland. In other words, the authoritarian Taiwan of the Chiang Dynasty which succeeded in transforming the semi-feudal, semi-colonial backwater of Taiwan into a modern, orderly, disciplined East Asian industrialized nation with world-class technology industries has now turned into the “democratic” Taiwan of homo rights, gay marriage, gangsta rap, negro worship, transgender children, etc.

    you wrote a lot but didnt address my original point. Nothing you said in your silly exuberant praise of chiang kaishek disproved the fact that taiwan is cucked in spite of it holding on to its “traditional” chinese culture. There is no apparent correlation between keeping traditional chinese culture and not becoming cucked. This seemed to be your original point and if it was then you are apparently wrong.

    Ever heard of wakon yosai? It means Japanese spirit, Western technology. Although Japan had Westerners living and working there including Catholic missionaries who succeeded in converting large masses of Japanese, the Tokugawa Shogunate were quite hostile to anything foreign to the extent that they expelled those Catholic missionaries and persecuted Japanese Christians by conducting periodic massacres.

    but your original claim was wrong:

    Prior to WWII, Japan was never colonized by any Western Power unlike China where certain cities such as HK, Macao, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Xiamen, etc. became foreign “concessions” as part of the Treaties of Nanjing and Tianjin after the Opium Wars. Christian missionaries and foreign merchants arrived and settled in those cities where a great number of mainland Chinese became influenced by Western languages, religions, cultures and ideologies especially in Shanghai where the Western colonial influence can still be felt today in the Bund. This is why the Western-educated elites such as the Chinese intellectuals leading the May 4th Movement advocated for the wholesale “Westernization” of China including the Chinese Communist Party which was founded in Shanghai.

    Almost everything you said also happened in japan to some degree as well. Only now are you revising your argument in light of the article that I provided in my last comment which disproved your original claims. What you were originally claiming was completely factually wrong, why are you dancing around this? Besides you didnt even bother addressing my central point:

    Japan’s only benefit was that the western powers were too busy devouring china to focus their energies on japan. This is why japan was given a chance to develop on the sidelines while china had to deal with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies.

    it doesnt matter what japan did, japan had the benefit of a smaller population (SCALE), a smaller landmass, a more powerful central government and it was allowed to develop on the sidelines while china dealt with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies. You’re trying to give japan more credit than it actually deserves while completely ignoring other more important advantages that japan had. Japan got to witness china’s initial encounter with the west from afar and was able to learn and prepare from that incident, china did not have the same luxury.

    That’s how the Meiji Restoration came to establish a modern centralized, bureaucratic Imperial State with State Shinto as the official State ideology/religion with the worship of the Emperor as the divine descendant of the Sun Goddess. They quickly learned and adopted Western technology and succeeded in industrializing their economy in one generation!!!

    yeah dude, you’re a complete ideologue. Im guessing some sort of weird taiwanese nationalist or something. You would be more credible if you didn’t use so many exclamation marks. Anyways youre impossible to take seriously

    By the way, the Manchus invented stupid shit like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, medieval mysticism, etc. because they were illiterate barbarians who suffered from an inferiority complex towards and envious of Han Confucianists to whom they depended upon to rule the Chinese Empire

    actually the history of foot-binding is apparently pretty long and complex, in fact it appears to predate the manchus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding

    and the manchus even tried banning foot binding on a few occasions but their han chinese subjects disobeyed the order:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding#History

    The Manchus issued a number of edicts to ban the practice, first in 1636 when the Manchu leader Hong Taiji declared the founding of the new Qing dynasty, then in 1638, and another in 1664 by the Kangxi Emperor.[19] However, few Han Chinese complied with the edicts and Kangxi eventually abandoned the effort in 1668.

    what does that say about the han chinese if they ignored even manchu attempts to try to get them to stop foot binding?

    By the way, the Manchus invented stupid shit like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, medieval mysticism, etc

    medieval mysticism? I assume you’re referring to qigong or related practices, which actually date back to more than 4000 years ago, far far before the manchus came on the scene:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong#History_and_origins

    it kind of seems like you’re just making random claims at this point regardless of whether or not they’re historically factual or not. You strike me as a ideologue though so this isn’t surprising, you clearly have a narrative to push, you dont care whether or not facts support it. If you’re wrong about simple things like what ive demonstrated so far then what else are you wrong about? It seems like you’re picking and choosing what you consider “traditional chinese culture”. I guess those may 4th followers had no idea what they were talking about and were just protesting for no reason at all. Get real dude

    If the Qing had succeeded in modernizing China’s pre-industrial economy by importing, studying and reverse-engineering Western technology such as steam engines, railroads, battleships, etc, then China could have defended itself against Japanese Imperialism which caused immense destruction to China after suffering a catastrophic collapse of its social order due to the cultural nihilism of the May 4th movement which echoed Mao’s Cultural Revolution in its anti-Confucian, anti-Asian, anti-religion cultural nihilism.

    thats the funny thing about hindsight, its always right. Of course its easy for you to see what the correct course of action was. This isnt even taking into advantage the fact that its easier to modernize and optimize your country if you have a country the size of japan with a much smaller population compared to trying to modernize a massive country with a massive population like china. Why do you continue to ignore the fact that scale is an incredibly important factor to consider? Not only that but dont forget that china was dealing with a ton of different other things at the time as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty

    The dynasty reached its high point in the late 18th century, then gradually declined in the face of challenges from abroad, internal revolts, population growth, disruption of the economy, corruption, and the reluctance of ruling elites to change their mindsets. The population rose to some 400 million, but taxes and government revenues were fixed at a low rate, leading to fiscal crisis. Following the Opium Wars, European powers led by Great Britain imposed “unequal treaties”, free trade, extraterritoriality and treaty ports under foreign control. The Taiping Rebellion (1850–1864) and the Dungan Revolt (1862–1877) in Central Asia led to the deaths of some 20 million people, due to famine, disease, and war. In spite of these disasters, in the Tongzhi Restoration of the 1860s, Han Chinese elites rallied to the defense of the Confucian order and the Manchu rulers.

    You’re the equivalent of an armchair general. You’re basically saying: “just modernize bro”. I dont know how on earth you expect china during this time period to modernize in an efficient manner given the events it was dealing with, a weakened government, its massive landmass, its massive population, etc etc. You keep trying to oversimplify things instead of acknowledging the complexity of the situation back then. History is complex, reality is complex, if it wasnt then bad things would never happen yet they do, all the time. Your hindsight armchair general bullshit is ridiculous

    • Thanks: FB, R.C
    • Replies: @antibeast
  258. Robjil says:
    @A123

    MSM are terrorist organizations. The biggest one of all.

    MSM since 12 23 1913 has pushed for WWI, WWII.

    Millions of lives lost in those wars.

    MSM is pushing these riots by stirring it up.

    MSM can put a plug on it if it wants.

    MSM likes it so it continues on stirring them up.

    When MSM gets tired of these riots, it will make them go away.

    The people who follow MSM are puppets of MSM.

    Boycott MSM. The puppet riots will end without MSM incitement.

    Freedom of press is needed. MSM is controled by 6 companies.

    These 6 companies push puppet shows for their amusement.

    The world is tired and weary of these endless destructive and cruel puppet shows for MSM’s amusement.

  259. antibeast says:
    @GammaRay

    lmao ok, keep boosting up chiang kaishek. Are you trying to make me think he’s “edgy” or cool because he was a fascist? LOL. The fact is, he was a US puppet because he served US interests in helping to contain china, the same as south korea or japan. He directly played an important role in empowering and supporting western (US) supremacy in east asia. I dont know why you are trying so hard to dance around this reality and act as if chiang kaishek was anything but a puppet. just stop dude

    The reason why I brought up Chiang Kai-shek’s one-man rule over Taiwan was to dispute R.C’s claim that Western colonization had influenced the culture of Taiwan which now has gay marriage, Green Parties, gangsta rap, LGBTQA parades, etc. But Taiwan never was a Western colony; it was colonized by Imperial Japan after the Treaty of Shimonoseki following the First Sino-Japanese War. After WWII, China reclaimed Taiwan where Chiang then fled to after losing to the Communists in the Chinese Civil War in 1949. He then quelled an uprising from native Taiwanese and imposed Martial Law which lasted some 38 years. After the USA left Taiwan following recognition of the PRC in 1979, the pro-democracy movement then started advocating for political liberalization in Taiwan. So all the Western influences in Taiwan that R.C. is claiming came AFTER the USA left Taiwan. The Chiang Dynasty’s nearly four decade reign had nothing to with those Western influences which are the by-product of the pro-democracy movement in Taiwan who are Western-influenced Fifth-Columnists just like the May 4th movement in Republican China during the 1920s.

    Almost everything you said also happened in japan to some degree as well. Only now are you revising your argument in light of the article that I provided in my last comment which disproved your original claims. What you were originally claiming was completely factually wrong, why are you dancing around this? Besides you didnt even bother addressing my central point: Japan’s only benefit was that the western powers were too busy devouring china to focus their energies on japan. This is why japan was given a chance to develop on the sidelines while china had to deal with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies.

    The link you cited in an earlier post contradicts your view:

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/japan-colonized

    Repealing the two problematic clauses in the 1858 trade treaties was a major goal for the new Meiji government. Their quest was to overturn Japan’s semicolonial status and make the country an equal of the Western powers. The Meiji government embarked on radical domestic reforms designed to make Japan a strong, civilized, and modern nation-state. Among their goals, the establishment of a modern legal system was a top priority. Yet, while persistent negotiations, drastic reforms, and rapid economic development were significant in the process of achieving a repeal of the two clauses, the demonstration of Japan’s military might and its increased prestige as an empire were probably most significant. After the Japanese victory over China in 1895, Japan succeeded in repealing consulate jurisdiction in 1899. And after Japan’s defeat of Russia (1905) and annexation of Korea (1910), it recovered tariff rights in 1911. The year 1911 not only marked the end of Japan’s semicolonial phase, it also saw the consolidation of the Japanese empire in East Asia.

    We both agree that Tokugawa Japan and Qing China suffered from the imposition of unequal treaties. Your claim that Meiji Japan was left alone to build up its economy so it could become a military power because the Western Powers were too busy with China is nonsensical. China was still a sovereign country albeit an impotent one because the Qing Dynasty refused to adopt the reforms recommended by the Qing Reformers after the Opium Wars. The Western Powers weren’t able to do anything to stop China when the Qing Dynasty did in fact enact reforms in 1901. But it was too little, too late. THAT was China’s problem not its East Asian cultural identity which the Western-influenced May 4th movement tried to slander, destroy and replace with a pseudo-Western identity, similar to the Western-influenced pro-democracy movement in Taiwan which is now trying to destroy its East Asian cultural values to be replaced with Western negro-LGBTQA-$PC junk.

    The rest of your reply regarding Manchu medieval mysticism betrays your ignorance of China. Did you know that the Manchus were Tibetan Buddhists (as were Mongols and Uyghurs) who appointed the Dalai Lama as the Imperial Tutor of the Qing Dynasty? Tibetan Buddhism influenced esoteric Chinese Buddhism, especially in Northeast China where Manchus, Mongols, Tibetans and Uyghurs settled in large numbers during the Yuan and Qing Dynasties. Tibetan Buddhism differs from Ch’an Buddhism, which is the Chinese school of Mahayana Buddhism, in that tantric practices do not exist in Ch’an Buddhism which promotes ascetism. Ch’an Buddhism spread to Japan where it is known as Zen Buddhism which Westerners mistakenly believe as indigenous to Japan.

    The Han Confucianists have always been Moral Legalists but the introduction of Buddhism into China during the Tang Dynasty presented them with an intellectual challenge which the Song Neo-Confucianists resolved by fusing Confucianism with Buddhism/Taoism to create Spiritual Rationalism in order to promote scientific learning. The Song Dynasty encouraged industrial production as part of their proto-industrial economy which was interrupted by the Mongol conquests until revived by the Ming Dynasty only to be shelved again under the Qing Dynasty. When Westerners encountered the Qing Dynasty, the medieval mysticism they experienced actually came from Tibetan Buddhism which influenced Northeast China. There are Japanese elites today who even claim that Japan not China is the heir to the Classical Chinese Civilization of the Han-Tang-Song because Japan escaped from the Mongol/Manchu conquests.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  260. GammaRay says:
    @antibeast

    The reason why I brought up Chiang Kai-shek’s one-man rule over Taiwan was to dispute R.C’s claim that Western colonization had influenced the culture of Taiwan which now has gay marriage, Green Parties, gangsta rap, LGBTQA parades, etc. But Taiwan never was a Western colony; it was colonized by Imperial Japan after the Treaty of Shimonoseki following the First Sino-Japanese War…

    yeah but none of what youre saying disproves what Ive been claiming. First of all:

    The fact is, he was a US puppet because he served US interests in helping to contain china, the same as south korea or japan. He directly played an important role in empowering and supporting western (US) supremacy in east asia.

    Chiang kaishek helped support maintaining western (US) supremacy in east asia. Nothing you say changes this fact. He was a western puppet, end of story. Secondly you appeared to be trying to suggest that keeping traditional asian culture somehow prevents the people of that country from becoming cucked, but this doesn’t appear to be the case. If it was true then taiwan wouldn’t have become cucked so easily. Whether or not an asian country maintains it traditional culture doesn’t seem to have a correlation with whether or not it becomes cucked, in fact there actually appears to be a negative correlation. Hong Kong seems equally cucked but you were previously claiming that it had held onto its traditional east asian identity:

    You’re talking about the politics of the State while I am talking about the culture of Society. Yes, most of those places are either former colonies or client States of Western Powers. But they did retain their East Asian cultural identity even in places like HK or Singapore where Confucianists/Buddhists outnumber Roman Catholics/Protestant Christians.

    You continue to try arguing that maintaining traditional east asian culture somehow prevents a country from becoming cucked but I dont see it. Your argument is really weak. Lets consider mainland china for a moment, historically it received the most damage from anti-traditional asian culture movements like the may 4th movement and the cultural revolution; according to your theory mainland china should be the MOST cucked but in actuality its the LEAST cucked. How do you explain that? The point is, you can’t. Your theory doesn’t hold up, you keep trying to lionize traditional east asian culture and attribute strengths to it that it doesnt actually have. Im not saying that traditional east asian culture is necessarily bad, but you’re giving it more credit than its due.

    The link you cited in an earlier post contradicts your view:

    no it doesnt.

    Your claim that Meiji Japan was left alone to build up its economy so it could become a military power because the Western Powers were too busy with China is nonsensical.

    I claimed that china bore the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies. I never claimed that japan totally escaped from the west’s colonizing energies. You do know what the expression “bear the brunt of” means right? China absorbed the majority of the west’s colonizing efforts, that doesn’t mean that japan totally escaped from the west’s colonization efforts. I’ve wrote this numerous times, its clear that you misread what I wrote:

    Japan was actually being colonized in a similar manner that you claimed china was being colonized. Japan’s only benefit was that the western powers were too busy devouring china to focus their energies on japan. This is why japan was given a chance to develop on the sidelines while china had to deal with the brunt of the west’s colonizing energies.

    Japan was left in relative peace to pursue its modernization process, china did not have this same benefit.

    China was still a sovereign country albeit an impotent one because the Qing Dynasty refused to adopt the reforms recommended by the Qing Reformers after the Opium Wars. The Western Powers weren’t able to do anything to stop China when the Qing Dynasty did in fact enact reforms in 1901. But it was too little, too late.

    There may be some truth to this, I don’t deny that. However this supports what ive been saying this entire time, the reason why the qing dynasty failed to modernize was multifacted. There are a ton of good reasons why they were unable to modernize in an efficient manner, I’ve already listed many of these reasons (which you continue to ignore). You continue to keep talking about modernization like it would be a walk in the park while continuing to ignore the many reasons why modernization would be a much more complicated process for china compared to japan. If you wanted to argue that the qing dynasty played a role in delaying china’s ability to modernize then you could probably make a good argument about that, but you insist on claiming that that was the singular cause, and whats more you use japan as an example of modernization while completely ignoring all of the advantages that japan had in being able to modernize compared to china. That fact that you so stubbornly assign blame to a single factor (manchus/qing dynasty) and then go on to use a poor counterexample of proper modernization (japan) makes you lose all credibility. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that multiple factors were involved which delayed chinas ability to modernize?

    The rest of your reply regarding Manchu medieval mysticism betrays your ignorance of China. Did you know that the Manchus were Tibetan Buddhists (as were Mongols and Uyghurs) who appointed the Dalai Lama as the Imperial Tutor of the Qing Dynasty? Tibetan Buddhism influenced esoteric Chinese Buddhism, especially in Northeast China where Manchus, Mongols, Tibetans and Uyghurs settled in large numbers during the Yuan and Qing Dynasties. Tibetan Buddhism differs from Ch’an Buddhism, which is the Chinese school of Mahayana Buddhism, in that tantric practices do not exist in Ch’an Buddhism which promotes ascetism. Ch’an Buddhism spread to Japan where it is known as Zen Buddhism which Westerners mistakenly believe as indigenous to Japan.

    Yeah, I noticed you totally skipped over the part about footbinding. And nowhere in your reply do I see you talking about qigong, which was what I was referencing. From all the sources I can find, they say that qigong goes back 4000-5000 years, this vastly predates the yuan and qing dynasties. You made a reference to medieval mysticism in your last comment but you didn’t specify what you were referring to. The closest thing I could think of was that you were probably referring to qigong and from everything ive seen, qigong appears to be basically indigenous to chinese culture and even if it isnt its been part of chinese culture for multiple millenia so at this point it might as well be indigenous. The point being, fringe metaphysical/spiritual practices cannot be wholly attributed to the manchus, these type of things also existed in indigenous chinese culture.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  261. antibeast says:
    @GammaRay

    Chiang kaishek helped support maintaining western (US) supremacy in east asia. Nothing you say changes this fact. He was a western puppet, end of story. Secondly you appeared to be trying to suggest that keeping traditional asian culture somehow prevents the people of that country from becoming cucked, but this doesn’t appear to be the case. If it was true then taiwan wouldn’t have become cucked so easily. Whether or not an asian country maintains it traditional culture doesn’t seem to have a correlation with whether or not it becomes cucked, in fact there actually appears to be a negative correlation. Hong Kong seems equally cucked but you were previously claiming that it had held onto its traditional east asian identity:

    My answer had nothing to do with Cold War politics but with East Asian cultural identity. R.C. was claiming that Western Colonization in the case of Asia or US military occupation in the case of East Asia had changed their cultural identity to become more Western rather than Asian. Japan became a client state of the USA during the Cold War but its cultural identity remained East Asian. Whether or not Chiang was a puppet, he did introduce traditional and Classical Chinese Culture to Taiwan because the native Taiwanese were brainwashed by the Japanese when it was their colony. Large numbers of native Taiwanese such as Lee Teng-hui, the first native Taiwanese to be elected President, who attended University in Japan were brainwashed to think that they were Japanese. Chiang realized this early on so he had to “resinicize” the native Taiwanese by banning Japanese and Taiwanese (a Chinese dialect similar to Fujianese) and enforcing official Chinese (called Mandarin) while mandating Classical Chinese Culture for the State and traditional Chinese Culture for Society. Almost all of Asia had recovered their Asian cultural identities after gaining their political independence from the West, with the possible exception of the Philippines whose cultural identity became Hispanic-Catholic-Western after four centuries of Western colonization. Same goes for Africa and Latin America where Western languages (Spanish, English, French, Portuguese), Western religions (Roman Catholicism, Protestant Christianity), Western ideologies (Liberalism, Democracy, Republicanism), etc. changed the cultural identity of these former Western colonies to post-colonial “Third World” cultural hybrids.

    You continue to try arguing that maintaining traditional east asian culture somehow prevents a country from becoming cucked but I dont see it. Your argument is really weak. Lets consider mainland china for a moment, historically it received the most damage from anti-traditional asian culture movements like the may 4th movement and the cultural revolution; according to your theory mainland china should be the MOST cucked but in actuality its the LEAST cucked. How do you explain that? The point is, you can’t. Your theory doesn’t hold up, you keep trying to lionize traditional east asian culture and attribute strengths to it that it doesnt actually have. Im not saying that traditional east asian culture is necessarily bad, but you’re giving it more credit than its due.

    Again, you’re missing my point. Politics and culture are two different things. Nothing to do with being cucked or not. Both the May 4th movement and its ideological successor the Cultural Revolution slandered traditional and Classical Chinese Culture and blamed Confucianism/Buddhism for the backwardness of Imperial China. My rebuttal is to cite the case of Imperial Japan after the Meiji Restoration which did in fact succeed in modernizing Japan’s economy without giving up its East Asian cultural identity. In many ways, the West too went though its own Cultural Revolution starting in the 60s to the identity politics being fought today which boils down to the question of the cultural identity of the West: Should Western countries like the USA remain White, English-speaking, Protestant Christians? Or should the USA abandon its cultural identity and import non-White, non-English-speaking, non-Christians to the West? Given the rise of nationalism in China and Russia, these two formerly Communist countries have largely abandoned the officially atheistic doctrine of Marxism/Leninism. For example, Putin is now reviving traditional Russian Culture based on Russian Orthodox Christianity. Here’s a photo to the military cathedral of the Russian Armed Force being built near Moscow today:

    There may be some truth to this, I don’t deny that. However this supports what ive been saying this entire time, the reason why the qing dynasty failed to modernize was multifacted. There are a ton of good reasons why they were unable to modernize in an efficient manner, I’ve already listed many of these reasons (which you continue to ignore). You continue to keep talking about modernization like it would be a walk in the park while continuing to ignore the many reasons why modernization would be a much more complicated process for china compared to japan. If you wanted to argue that the qing dynasty played a role in delaying china’s ability to modernize then you could probably make a good argument about that, but you insist on claiming that that was the singular cause, and whats more you use japan as an example of modernization while completely ignoring all of the advantages that japan had in being able to modernize compared to china. That fact that you so stubbornly assign blame to a single factor (manchus/qing dynasty) and then go on to use a poor counterexample of proper modernization (japan) makes you lose all credibility. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that multiple factors were involved which delayed chinas ability to modernize?

    When Lord Macartney visited Beijing in 1793, his diplomatic mission was to establish peaceful, friendly trading relations with China. But Emperor Qianlong not only rebuffed him but scornfully insulted him. The Industrial Revolution had transformed the British economy which needed markets for its cotton textiles and other manufactured goods while the Manchus had restricted foreign trade to only Macao and later Canton (Guangzhou). If Qianlong had acceded to Macartney’s requests for free trade between Imperial China and the British Empire, China could have experienced its own Industrial Revolution, ahead of the newly-established USA which was still being treated as a rebel State by the British Empire. As it were, the Manchu obscurantists were too arrogant to acknowledge that the British had invented the steam engine, the single most important industrial technology that would revolutionize its economy. The British built the first railroad in the UK in 1804 and in India in 1853 while the USA built its first railroad in 1827. Guess what happened to China? Here’s the Wikipedia entry:

    The first railway to be built in China was a 600-metre narrow gauge demonstration line that a British merchant assembled in Beijing in 1865 to demonstrate rail technology. The Qing government was uninterested and had the line dismantled. The first railroad to enter commercial service was the Woosung Railway, a 9 ¼ mi (14 km) railway from Shanghai to Woosung (modern Shanghai’s Baoshan District) which opened in 1876. This was also built by the British, without approval from the Qing government, which had the line dismantled one year later. Until the defeat of China in the First Sino-Japanese War, the government remained hostile toward railway construction. Beginning in 1895, the government began to grant rail concessions to foreigners, and permitted direct connection to the capital Beijing.

    By 1911, there were about 9,000 km of railroads in China, mostly designed, built, owned and operated by foreign companies. This was still well behind the industrialized world, the United States had roughly 380,000 km of rail at the time. The first indigenous-designed and -constructed railway by Chinese was the Beijing-Zhangjiakou Railway built from 1905 to 1909, a difficult job due to the mountainous terrain. The chief engineer of this railway was Zhan Tianyou, who is known as the Father of China’s Railway.

    By 1911, the USA had the longest rail-line in the world at 380,000 km while China had 9,000 km. And who guess who helped build those railroads? The Chinese who went to work there in the 1860s!!! In other words, according to the May 4th movement, traditional Confucianist/Buddhist Culture is to blame for the backwardness of Qing China even though those Chinese workers who helped build those railroads believed in traditional Confucianist/Buddhist Culture which is why they sent the bones of their dead back to their ancestral villages in China.

    The rest of your post on foot-binding, qigong, etc. is immaterial to our discussion.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @GammaRay
  262. FB says: • Website
    @antibeast

    Excellent debate…!

    Well worth reading carefully…both of you are making very good points and I have certainly picked up a few things I had no idea about…and which will bear further study…

    I would say the question of how the Chinese have been influenced by the western powers during the age of colonialism and western global ascendancy are very relevant right now…as the world is undergoing a major reset in the power balance and China ascends spectacularly…

    I agree with Gamma Ray that Mainland China is by far more true to its roots, and its identity than the ridiculous western puppets in Taiwan and Kong Kong…this is true for South Korea and Japan also, which have hitched their wagons to the west and are going to have difficulties with the west’s decline…

    North Korea is a beacon of hope and a powerful example for all of East Asia [even for China]…what they have managed to accomplish is remarkable…in science [have put a satellite in orbit and have ICBMs]…education, and much more…all while being under what amounts to a state of war for nearly seven decades…and after having been pretty much destroyed as a country by the US war of aggression…

    Not least for the fact that socialism appears to be highly compatible with the traditional Korean identity and ideologies [of which I know relatively little to be honest…]

    I would say socialism in China is doing the right thing to continue to strengthen the nation’s identity and historical place…I noticed earlier in this debate that the commenter ‘RC’ seemed to be suggesting otherwise, which I think is nonsensical…

    Socialism is in fact the modern rightful continuation of the Chinese historical identity and I would say also the East Asian in general…

    In any case, good work to both of you for a very interesting and erudite debate…compared to the troglodytes we have here on UNZ where your filling up the screen space with the most primitive flatulence [fools like Rurik and other illiterate goofballs fighting the ‘culture war’ come to mind]…this discussion of Chinese history and culture is something to behold…

    And the dumbshit Americans still believe they are going to put the Chinaman in his ‘place’…LOL…😂 😂 😂

    • Thanks: GammaRay
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  263. GammaRay says:
    @antibeast

    Again, you’re missing my point. Politics and culture are two different things. Nothing to do with being cucked or not. Both the May 4th movement and its ideological successor the Cultural Revolution slandered traditional and Classical Chinese Culture and blamed Confucianism/Buddhism for the backwardness of Imperial China. My rebuttal is to cite the case of Imperial Japan after the Meiji Restoration which did in fact succeed in modernizing Japan’s economy without giving up its East Asian cultural identity.

    lol. You spent comment #239 basically trying to find ways to trash the mainland and characterize them as dopey western followers while at the same time you were trying to point out how HK, singapore, taiwan and japan still maintain their east asian cultural identity with the implication that they are somehow better for doing so:

    But the Japanese hardly ever learned English and yet their world-class companies are global leaders in manufacturing and technology industries. The rich Overseas Chinese (华桥) families don’t send their children to the West to party and enjoy life but to study for their MBAs so they can return to Asia to manage their family businesses. And the richer they are, the more traditional and conservative they become.

    however the reality is that it seems like taiwan and HK actually seem like the dopey western followers and this is in spite of them supposedly maintaining traditional chinese culture (according to you). Its pretty clear that you were trying to insinuate that the mainland was mentally cucked because it attacked its own traditional asian culture, you’re not fooling anyone here lol.

    When Lord Macartney visited Beijing in 1793, his diplomatic mission was to establish peaceful, friendly trading relations with China. But Emperor Qianlong not only rebuffed him but scornfully insulted him. The Industrial Revolution had transformed the British economy which needed markets for its cotton textiles and other manufactured goods while the Manchus had restricted foreign trade to only Macao and later Canton (Guangzhou).

    The japanese didnt even bother modernizing in a meaningful sense until it saw china getting pummeled in the opium wars in 1839 and it didn’t actually take it seriously until commodore perry visited japan with his gunboats in 1854. The japanese resistance to change cannot simply be pinned on the manchus. They voluntarily closed themselves off for over 200 years. The japanese instituted their sakoku/closed off policy independently and without the bad old manchus forcing them to do anything. Do you realize how silly your insistence on blaming everything on the manchus is? There is obviously something about east asian culture than makes it tend towards being more closed off instead of opened up like the west. I don’t know why you refuse to simply admit that maybe traditional east asian culture isn’t perfect. You hugely overrate the goodness of traditional east asian culture and I have no idea why. None of your factoids about railroads has any bearing on the fact that you seem irrationally bent on deflecting any criticism on traditional east asian culture while simultaneously wanting to blame the manchus for everything.

    furthermore, why are you so fixated on things that happened in the past? there is no way to go back and change them, so why is this so important to you to continually blame everything on the manchus, the may 4th movement, the cultural revolution etc etc? China is now one of the most powerful countries in the world and it continues to grow in strength so all this crap about the manchus, the may 4th movement, the cultural revolution, traditional east asian identity etc is irrelevant now. Could mainland china have done things different and in a better way? Sure, but you could say that about anything. I have no idea why you continue to obsess about this. In spite of trashing (rightfully so IMO) its traditional east asian identity china has still emerged as extremely powerful and also relatively non-cucked compared to other east asian nations that held onto their east asian identity.

    The rest of your post on foot-binding, qigong, etc. is immaterial to our discussion.

    oh but it is relevant. You’re just claiming its immaterial now because you were proved wrong on this. This is what you originally wrote:

    By the way, the Manchus invented stupid shit like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, medieval mysticism, etc. because they were illiterate barbarians who suffered from an inferiority complex towards and envious of Han Confucianists to whom they depended upon to rule the Chinese Empire

    Your intent behind writing this was to try to selectively pick and choose what was considered ‘traditional chinese culture” so that you could take things you didn’t like and assign it to manchu influence so that you could avoid admitting that it came from traditional chinese culture itself. Like I said, you just don’t want to admit that maybe certain parts of traditional chinese culture were wrong or backwards because if you did admit this then it might actually validate the actions of the may 4th movement.

    The greatest threat to china’s further development and becoming more powerful is unchecked cultural chauvinism like what you’re displaying. China becomes more strong by being humble, reflective and being able to criticize itself and act on these criticisms. What you’re trying to do is stifle criticism and act like traditional chinese culture is somehow infallible or perfect, which we both know is bullshit. No culture is perfect and no culture stays the same forever anyways, if it did then said culture would probably become weak and get destroyed or taken over sooner or later if it becomes unable to adapt to changing circumstances. I have no idea why you keep trying to boost up traditional east asian culture, I guess youre ideologically committed to some clusmy form of pro-traditionalism no matter if it fits or not (hint: the west probably needs a pro-traditionalism ideology but this same ideology is not quite needed for the east. The west has different needs than the east and is on a different civilizational track right now, there is no one size fits all ideology)

    • Replies: @antibeast
  264. antibeast says:
    @GammaRay

    The japanese didnt even bother modernizing in a meaningful sense until it saw china getting pummeled in the opium wars in 1839 and it didn’t actually take it seriously until commodore perry visited japan with his gunboats in 1854. The japanese resistance to change cannot simply be pinned on the manchus. They voluntarily closed themselves off for over 200 years. The japanese instituted their sakoku/closed off policy independently and without the bad old manchus forcing them to do anything. Do you realize how silly your insistence on blaming everything on the manchus is? There is obviously something about east asian culture than makes it tend towards being more closed off instead of opened up like the west. I don’t know why you refuse to simply admit that maybe traditional east asian culture isn’t perfect. You hugely overrate the goodness of traditional east asian culture and I have no idea why. None of your factoids about railroads has any bearing on the fact that you seem irrationally bent on deflecting any criticism on traditional east asian culture while simultaneously wanting to blame the manchus for everything.

    The Manchus had nothing to do with Japan which did close itself since the sakoku policy of the Tokugawa. But that had to do with politics not culture as the Japanese feared foreign influences from Westerners such as the Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch who were busy colonizing Southeast Asia. Western colonialism had in fact stimulated commerce and industry in French Indochina, British Malaya and Dutch Indonesia which allowed the Overseas Chinese immigrant communities to prosper economically due to their social capital which was based on traditional Confucianist/Buddhist culture. It was these group of Overseas Chinese who then brought needed Capital and Technology back to China after the tongmenghui had succeeded in overthrowing the Manchus in the 1911 Xinhai Revolution and stimulated the rise of Industrial Capitalism in Republican China. This is similar to what Max Weber was claiming about the Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Industrial Capitalism. The WASPs for example organized their societies around Protestant Christianity which provided the social capital needed for Industrial Capitalism to thrive in the West.

    Your intent behind writing this was to try to selectively pick and choose what was considered ‘traditional chinese culture” so that you could take things you didn’t like and assign it to manchu influence so that you could avoid admitting that it came from traditional chinese culture itself. Like I said, you just don’t want to admit that maybe certain parts of traditional chinese culture were wrong or backwards because if you did admit this then it might actually validate the actions of the may 4th movement.

    No I am not. I am stating an intellectually-correct historical fact which attributes the backwardness of Qing China to Manchu obscurantism while debunking the politically-correct May 4th and Cultural Revolution slander against traditional Confucianist/Buddhist culture. The Overseas Chinese got rid of those silly Manchu stuff like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, etc. but retained their traditional Confucianist/Buddhist cultures which provided the social capital to organize their immigrant communities outside of China. The Overseas Chinese helped organize the tongmenghui whose goal was: (驅除韃虜, 恢復中華, 創立民國, 平均地權) to expel the Manchu people, to revive Zhonghua, to establish a Republic, and to distribute land equally among the people. Zhonghua (中華) means Classical Chinese Civilization.

    furthermore, why are you so fixated on things that happened in the past? there is no way to go back and change them, so why is this so important to you to continually blame everything on the manchus, the may 4th movement, the cultural revolution etc etc? China is now one of the most powerful countries in the world and it continues to grow in strength so all this crap about the manchus, the may 4th movement, the cultural revolution, traditional east asian identity etc is irrelevant now. Could mainland china have done things different and in a better way? Sure, but you could say that about anything. I have no idea why you continue to obsess about this. In spite of trashing (rightfully so IMO) its traditional east asian identity china has still emerged as extremely powerful and also relatively non-cucked compared to other east asian nations that held onto their east asian identity.

    Political ideology is not enough; cultural identity is also important. Since the 60s, the Cultural Revolution and post-modern Western Liberalism which swept the Western World have all but destroyed the traditional WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) values which built the USA into a world superpower. The USA is still the military superpower of the world but it has since turned into a cultural colony of post-modern Western Liberals who want to promote negro-worship, gangsta rap, homo rights, gay marriage, transgender children, etc.

    The same thing is happening in East Asia. Taiwan under the autocratic Chiang Dynasty was an orderly, disciplined, Confucianist/Buddhist East Asian society but has since transmogrified into a post-modern Western Liberal cesspool of negro-LGBTQA&PC junk. South Korea is likewise going through the same process as is HK after Western-influenced Fifth Columnists started advocating Western-style Liberalism in those East Asian societies. What’s been happening is the insidious cultural subversion of those East Asian societies by post-modern Western Liberalism which is exactly what happened with the May 4th movement in Republican China as well as the pro-democracy student protests in Tiannanmen. There are a few holdouts like Japan and Singapore as well as North Korea, Vietnam and China.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  265. @Ron Unz

    This, with its focus on the maths and stats of Covid 19 seems as good a place as any to ask you whether you would agree that
    1. Government responses have mostly – quite rationally – been dominated by fear on the part of politicians that they would be blamed if there were a great many deaths attributable to their failure to have the health system prepared and/or to take action in a way that other polities already had and were thought to be lifesaving;
    2. There did appear to be no certainty that deficiencies in preparedness would not be catastrophic;
    3. Decisions had to be made – early – in conditions of great uncertainty about just about every important fact and statistic concerning the virus, its spread, its effects and any countermeasures that might be optimal;
    4. Now we can see that the optimal strategy, at least in a country with a good health system, would have been to shelter only the old and ill or otherwise at high risk, and allow others to build up here immunity as quickly as possible – sunject to maybe a short delay while specific preparations are made during a couple of weeks lockdown. Without accepting all of Anrew Mather’s mathematics it seems clear that infections would begin to fall away quite quickly.
    5. Only time would tell what developments in drugs and vaccines might, assuming the virus maintained its virulence, solve the problem of protecting the small proportion of specially vulnerable people.
    5. The virus might be eliminated in some countries but if that happened before herd immunity was achieved the virus could easily make a come back, so, whether or not herd immunity or early elimination of the virus had been achieved there would have to be stringent controls on arrivals from countries which hadn’t achieved similarly advanced levels of control.

    I am not sure what counts as second and third best ways of handling the pandemic. I suspect that the best outcome now achievable would be simply to help the specially vulnerable to self isolate if they wished and otherwise to resume normal life.

  266. @FB

    As you claim to know much about and admire North Korea would you be so good as to explain to UR ignoramuses how important Bureau 39 is to the North Korean economy and, in particular, the the Kim family remaining in control?

  267. @R.C

    I’ve looked at your posts and I have rnjoyed reading them. I can’t say I particularly agree, but I have found them interesting and I don’t really have any basis for an evaluation anyway!

    To that end, I was wondering if you might highlight some of the things you think are wrong with China at the moment? The flaws and the blindspots which you perceive?

    It is my rough impression that the single most harmful weakness in Chinese culture is that it strongly discourages its own from doing this, and instead only allows people to conceive of criticisms like “we are too hard-working,” “we are too smart,” or “we are too little time out of escaping foreign perfidy.”

    Anyone who has conducted job interviews knows what these type of answers mean about the interviewee (-;

    For a society, this is bad because unidentified flaws can’t be rectified. They tend to grow and grow until they become overwhelming.

    I hope this makes sense.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  268. GammaRay says:
    @antibeast

    The Manchus had nothing to do with Japan which did close itself since the sakoku policy of the Tokugawa. But that had to do with politics not culture as the Japanese feared foreign influences from Westerners such as the Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch who were busy colonizing Southeast Asia…

    Politics come from culture. Not only did the japanese close themselves off from the world but they also didn’t bother to seriously modernize or learn on a large scale from the west during this time period either. If the japanese were as forward thinking and awesome as you claim they are then the japanese would have been open to modernizing in a meaningful sense as soon as they realized that the west was in a technologically superior position but instead of doing that they shelled up for two hundred years and didn’t take modernization seriously until they were literally forced to at gunpoint by commodore perry and his gunboat fleet.

    [MORE]

    You know what? Korea also did a similar thing by shutting itself off from the world like china and japan did. Its funny because its almost like there is some sort of racial or cultural pattern going on here. Its so silly for you to continue to blame everything on the manchus instead of just admitting that perhaps east asian traditional culture has some possible maladaptive tendencies. Even on a interpersonal level everybody knows that east asians are more introverted compared to westerners. Is it any surprise that culturally/racially ingrained introversion also shows up on a national level when it comes to policies enacted by these countries as well?

    Western colonialism had in fact stimulated commerce and industry in French Indochina, British Malaya and Dutch Indonesia which allowed the Overseas Chinese immigrant communities to prosper economically due to their social capital which was based on traditional Confucianist/Buddhist culture.

    I never stated that there were no redeeming features to traditional east asian culture. I’ve simply maintained that people shouldn’t have a slavish dedication to it and should be willing to change culture when it becomes necessary to. Youre convinced that there is nothing wrong at all with traditional east asian culture, yet the may 4th movement still happened. You apparently think that as a 21st century person you know more about the pros and cons of traditional chinese culture than the participants in the may 4th movement knew, who literally lived during that time period and would be able to understand the contrast between it and western culture much better than you’re able to. Remember, you didn’t even realize that footbinding and “medieval mysticism” had roots in traditional chinese culture, what else could you be wrong about?

    No I am not. I am stating an intellectually-correct historical fact which attributes the backwardness of Qing China to Manchu obscurantism while debunking the politically-correct May 4th and Cultural Revolution slander against traditional Confucianist/Buddhist culture. The Overseas Chinese got rid of those silly Manchu stuff like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, etc. but retained their traditional Confucianist/Buddhist cultures which provided the social capital to organize their immigrant communities outside of China. The Overseas Chinese helped organize the tongmenghui whose goal was: (驅除韃虜, 恢復中華, 創立民國, 平均地權) to expel the Manchu people, to revive Zhonghua, to establish a Republic, and to distribute land equally among the people. Zhonghua (中華) means Classical Chinese Civilization.

    are you really going to straight up lie now? I literally debunked your assertion that footbinding was imposed by the manchus and you completely ignored it lol. The manchus even tried to stop it but the han chinese ignored them. What is historically correct is that traditional chinese culture had its own indigenous backwards practices that pre-dated manchu rule.

    The Overseas Chinese got rid of those silly Manchu stuff like foot-binding, pigtail-wearing, etc. but retained their traditional Confucianist/Buddhist cultures which provided the social capital to organize their immigrant communities outside of China.

    Did they? Are you referring to the new republic of china? Because the sources I find on footbinding give a more complicated history behind its demise that predates the new republic of china’s efforts to end footbinding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding#Demise

    Opposition to foot binding had been raised by some Chinese writers in the 18th century. In the mid-19th century, many of the rebel leaders of the Taiping Rebellion were of Hakka background whose women did not bind their feet, and foot binding was outlawed.[29][30] The rebellion however failed, and Christian missionaries, who had provided education for girls and actively discouraged what they considered a barbaric practice, then played a part in changing elite opinion on footbinding through education, pamphleteering, and lobbying of the Qing court.[31][32] The earliest-known Western anti-foot binding society, Jie Chan Zu Hui (截纏足会), was formed in Xiamen in 1874 by 60-70 women in meeting presided over by a missionary John MacGowan.[33] In 1895, Christian women in Shanghai led by Alicia Little formed the Natural Foot (tianzu, literally Heavenly Foot) Society.[33][34] It was also championed by the Woman’s Christian Temperance Movement founded in 1883 and advocated by missionaries including Timothy Richard, who thought that Christianity could promote equality between the sexes.[35]

    it appears that christians (aka awful western influence) were the ones who helped spearhead early efforts to end footbinding as opposed to chinese elements supporting traditional chinese culture that you were referring to. It appears that you’re wrong here unless you have access to some other information which can prove otherwise. Not only that but the manchus which you hate even tried outlawing footbinding which I discussed in a previous comment

    The Manchus issued a number of edicts to ban the practice, first in 1636 when the Manchu leader Hong Taiji declared the founding of the new Qing dynasty, then in 1638, and another in 1664 by the Kangxi Emperor.[19] However, few Han Chinese complied with the edicts and Kangxi eventually abandoned the effort in 1668.

    Yet you blame the manchus for making the chinese backwards by introducing footbinding to the chinese originally? I don’t understand why you show an absolute refusal to admit that maybe some parts of traditional chinese culture were truly obsolete or outdated. You have an ideological commitment to defending traditional chinese culture, but its not based on anything factual or reasonable, its just based on your own subjective desire to imagine traditional chinese culture as perfect.

    Political ideology is not enough; cultural identity is also important. Since the 60s, the Cultural Revolution and post-modern Western Liberalism which swept the Western World have all but destroyed the traditional WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) values which built the USA into a world superpower. The USA is still the military superpower of the world but it has since turned into a cultural colony of post-modern Western Liberals who want to promote negro-worship, gangsta rap, homo rights, gay marriage, transgender children, etc.

    The same thing is happening in East Asia. Taiwan under the autocratic Chiang Dynasty was an orderly, disciplined, Confucianist/Buddhist East Asian society but has since transmogrified into a post-modern Western Liberal cesspool of negro-LGBTQA&PC junk. South Korea is likewise going through the same process as is HK after Western-influenced Fifth Columnists started advocating Western-style Liberalism in those East Asian societies.

    Yup and this brings us back full circle. In spite of taiwan holding onto traditional east asian culture it still ended up becoming cucked. Your traditional east asian culture didn’t function as a good impediment to western liberal influences, the same goes for HK and south korea too. Holding on to traditional east asian culture hasn’t done anything for them. Meanwhile mainland china went through the cultural revolution and damaged lots of its traditional east asian culture but now its the least cucked. You keep claiming that cultural identity is so extremely important but the real world doesn’t reflect that. According to your theory mainland china should be the most cucked but actually its the least cucked even though its the most separated from its traditional east asian identity. Even you can’t answer this

    What’s been happening is the insidious cultural subversion of those East Asian societies by post-modern Western Liberalism which is exactly what happened with the May 4th movement in Republican China as well as the pro-democracy student protests in Tiannanmen. There are a few holdouts like Japan and Singapore as well as North Korea, Vietnam and China.

    to a hammer all problems seem like a nail. You are so scared by this western liberalism bogeyman that you even retcon the may 4th movement as being the same thing as the spread of western liberalism and the tiannanmen square protests. Its amazing just how ideologically you are thinking about this. The may 4th movement happened in a time where the modern conception of western liberalism that you’re so scared of didnt even exist yet. The concerns of the may 4th movement were valid and reasonable given the circumstances back then. Just because modern iterations of western cultural influence might be subversive or degenerate doesn’t mean that in all times and in all places western cultural influence was subversive or degenerate. In fact:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Culture_Movement#Evaluations_and_changing_views

    Historians in the west also saw the movement as marking a break between tradition and modernity, but in recent decades, Chinese and western historians now commonly argue that the changes promoted by New Culture leaders had roots going back several generations and thus were not a sharp break with tradition, which, in any case, was quite varied, as much as an acceleration of earlier trends.[22]

    what if the chinese people actually wanted to change? Things were different a hundred years ago, the entire world was a completely different place. The west wasnt even cucked yet by the western liberalism that you abhor. Its absurd that you’re trying so hard to apply a modern perspective to a past that was radically different. You claim that the may 4th movement was a 5th column movement and try to suggest that they didn’t know what they were talking about, but the difference between them and you is that they actually lived through that time period and could give critiques on tradtional chinese culture based on firsthand experience, you can’t. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say about the greatness and infallibility of traditional chinese culture when you’ve never spent a day in your life in the 19th or early 20th century china?

    Its clear to me that you have an ideological axe to grind, that’s why you’re unable to be reasonable about any of this. Its not unreasonable to suggest that maybe some reform of traditional chinese culture was necessary in an age of rapid modernization, yet you refuse to admit that anything was wrong or outdated about traditional chinese culture. You do realize its possible to acknowledge the utility of past instances of reform of traditional chinese culture while also being skeptical of modern western liberal ideas right? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, you’re literally turning this into a black and white issue when it doesn’t even have to be. Like I said, you’re an ideologue, you see everything through the lens of “western liberalism” without ever bothering to consider that maybe things are more complicated than that.

    Furthermore if you were really serious about countering the threat from modern western liberalism then why are you so fixated on promoting traditional east asian culture? Traditional east asian culture folded like a cheap suit when it encountered modern western liberal ideas in taiwan and hongkong, yet for some reason you seem to be promoting traditional east asian culture as some kind of antidote to this corrosive effect. Meanwhile you try to talk down about mainland china and its supposed deficiency of traditional east asian culture when its clear that its lack of traditional east asian culture didnt have a negative effect on it (in fact it appears to have been a positive effect if anything, alas correlation is not causation). If you really feel like modern western liberalism is such a threat then there are more effective ways to counter it than by blindly promoting traditional east asian culture. Its clear to me that you lack creativity and that’s why you mindlessly copy the alt-right stance on bringing back traditional culture (in the west) and try to apply it to east asia without ever considering if this is actually what east asia needs or not. The west is not the east, the east is not the west, both have different intrinsic natures, different psychologies, different genetics, different cultures, different pasts, different presents, there is no reason to assume that what the west currently needs right now is the same thing that the east currently needs so I don’t know why you continue to act like this is the case.

  269. GammaRay says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    It is my rough impression that the single most harmful weakness in Chinese culture is that it strongly discourages its own from doing this, and instead only allows people to conceive of criticisms like “we are too hard-working,” “we are too smart,” or “we are too little time out of escaping foreign perfidy.”

    I think that many westerners (or at least china skeptical ones) have this perception that the chinese are adverse to actual criticisms of themselves but I would argue that this is an inversion of reality. In my experience with chinese people they are more willing to face harsh truths about themselves than westerners are. If anything I would say that its actually westerners who are the ones that give themselves softball criticisms. I’m genuinely curious where you got this impression about chinese culture from?

    On a related topic, the online arm of the western media does try really hard to push an image of “sensitive” chinese that are arrogant and incapable of self-criticism but I suspect that this is basically american 4th generation warfare tier agitprop as opposed to being something based on an actual phenomena. Take this incident for example:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-cries-foul-over-nba-teams-tweet-11570461275

    The west had a field day skewering china over being too sensitive but personally I found chinese people’s reaction pretty normal. Imagine if the situation was reversed and there was some chinese franchise that was big in the US and some chinese bigshot connected with this franchise tweeted that he supported the BLM protests that are currently going on in the US and that he thought that racism was a serious problem in america. Can you imagine the sheer amount of butthurt and tears that would flow from the US right wing? Yet its typically these very same people that without any self-awareness accuse the chinese of being too sensitive. Or what if this same franchise owner tweeted that he was against the BLM protests or voiced some other form of criticism against it, can you imagine the upswell of butthurt, overly sensitive americans of all stripes that would be complaining about it?

    The point is, most people regardless of nationality are pretty sensitive (or at least it appears this way in the modern age of the internet), and this is especially so if said criticism/opinion on a sensitive topic is coming from a far removed foreigner of all people. This is common sense but the western media loves to twist things around and make normal/rational things that the chinese are doing look irrational or silly. Unfortunately this appears to be the reality of living during during a new cold war, americans believe that propaganda doesnt exist in america or that they’re somehow immune to it but they couldnt be more wrong.

  270. @GammaRay

    How funny is it that you posted all of that without an example?

  271. @GammaRay

    I think he got the idea from a few anons who claimed to be Chinese. Talking about Chinese being thin skinned and cannot take criticism. This same idea is now being peddled by known Zionist anons.

    So, take a hard look at this anon.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  272. @Half Back

    I was reading a book recently…. It noted from sources that the ROC actually got into skirmishes with US navy forces along the shore. That also affected Truman’s decision.

  273. @antibeast

    I personally can’t say that I know the internal political mechanisms in China – but we do know under Obama – China took out a CIA ring that was moving within the government (which crippled US intelligence gathering)… I’m not sure if those are things “RC” is referring to or not…???

  274. @Adûnâi

    Huh? Japan is still considered a Confucian-esque society. Industrialization has nothing to do with it. In fact even the CCP is having Confucianism taught again – after what happened in the Cultural Revolution. All the “Asian tigers” kept Confucian ideals while modernizing. That’s what China started doing too.

  275. @Adûnâi

    What do you mean the Manchu dynasty wasn’t Chinese??? They absolutely were… They weren’t Han people – but they founded a Chinese dynasty.

    Also – Arabs and Persians certainly did reach – traded and lived in – China long long ago. Chinese were going to the Arabian peninsula as well during the Ming Dynasty.

  276. @antibeast

    “In contrast, the Japanese decided early on to learn and adopt Western technology while retaining their East Asian culture. ”

    Though it was Commodore Perry and his gunboat diplomacy that caused Japan to open up. Then after they saw what happened to China.

    I agree with everything else you said… Especially regarding Singapore vs Chinese new found worship of things western. Xi Jinping is being noted for his anti corruption and anti poverty drives… But maybe less well notice is his drive to promote Chinese culture to avoid too much westernization and the social degradation that comes along with it. Sadly Hong Kong is far gone in that regard… Hence the rioters thinking they are playing “Grand Theft Auto”. I wonder if that game is outlawed in Singapore….??? I know Singapore does censor media – and rightfully so. Even porn was illegal in Singapore up to a few years ago… Not sure if it still is…? They relented on casinos (though heavily regulated) – so it will be interesting.

  277. @Astuteobservor II

    You remind to remember the chutzpah of those who are *thick* skinned and can’t (won;’t?) take criticism 😎

  278. @Ron Unz

    Further to my previous speculative reply here is support for it

    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/coronavirus-/12425196

    In particular the resorting to open source social media out of necessity. In the American agency’s case it makes sense that it was prompted by some information about sick military athletes.

  279. @Ron Unz

    Returnimg to this thread I think your Emotional IQ had again been suppressed by your combative cognitive IQ. My speculation about Du’s death not requiring any sinister CIA or Mossad relationship is entirely objective and unrelated to any distress unless I should choose to find it distressing that you may be suffering from proto paranoid hyper vigilance 😎. I actually enjoy finding weaknesses in confidently asserted assessments both to get better results and to exercise the brain. Far from being outlandish my imagining Du in factional trouble in the CCP is supported by RC’s well informed views. Also it would not be surprising if a Chinese diplomat didn’t have a healthy Chinese diet, and, as a stressed smoker, might die at 57 just as my father and lots of contemporaries died of heart attacks in middle age.

  280. I omitted my real starting point which was my surprise at the belting you gave the chap with the numerical handle. To wit “stupid and ignorant rightwinger”, “total retard”. Fair go mate. Get yourself a dog to kick before the next time you back the car into your front gate😉

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