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Few geopolitical hot spots across the planet may rival the Caucasus: that intractable, tribal Tower of Babel, throughout History a contentious crossroads of empires from the Levant and nomads from the Eurasian steppes. And it gets even messier when one adds the fog of war.

To try to shed some light into the current Armenia-Azerbaijan face off, let’s crisscross the basic facts with some essential deep background.

Late last month Ilham Aliyev, Azerbaijan’s proverbial “strongman”, in power since 2003, launched a de facto war on the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh held by Armenia.

At the collapse of the USSR, Nagorno-Karabakh had a mixed population of Azeri Shi’ites and Armenian Christians. Yet even before the collapse the Azerbaijani Army and Armenian independentists were already at war (1988-1994), which yielded a grim balance of 30,000 dead and roughly a million wounded.

The Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh declared independence in 1991: but that was not recognized by the “international community”. Finally there was a ceasefire in 1994 – with Nagorno-Karabakh entering the gray area/no man’s land of “frozen conflict”.

The problem is that in 1993, the United Nations had approved no less than four resolutions – 822, 853, 874 and 884 – establishing that Armenia should withdraw from what was deemed to be roughly 20% of Azerbaijani territory. This is at the core of Baku’s rationale to fight against what it qualifies as a foreign occupation army.

Yerevan’s interpretation though is that these four resolutions are null and void because Nagorno-Karabakh harbors an Armenian-majority population who wants to secede from Azerbaijan.

Historically, Artsakh is one of three ancient provinces of Armenia – rooted at least in the 5th century B.C. and finally established in 189 B.C. Armenians, based on DNA samples from excavated bones, argue they have been settled in Artsakh for at least 4,000 years.

Artsakh – or Nagorno-Karabakh – was annexed to Azerbaijan by Stalin in 1923. That set the stage for a future powder keg to inevitably explode.

It’s important to remember that there was no “Azerbaijan” nation-state until the early 1920s. Historically, Azerbaijan is a territory in northern Iran. Azeris are very well integrated within the Islamic Republic. So the Republic of Azerbaijan actually borrowed its name from their Iranian neighbors. In ancient history, the territory of the new 20th century republic was known as Atropatene, and Aturpakatan before the advent of Islam.

How the equation changed

Baku’s main argument is that Armenia is blocking a contiguous Azerbaijani nation, as a look in the map shows us that southwest Azerbaijan is de facto split all the way to the Iranian border.

And that plunges us necessarily into deep background. To clarify matters, there could not be a more reliable guide than a top Caucasus think tank expert who shared his analysis with me by email, but is insistent on “no attribution”. Let’s call him Mr. C.

Mr. C notes that, “for decades, the equation remained the same and the variables in the equation remained the same, more or less. This was the case notwithstanding the fact that Armenia is an unstable democracy in transition and Azerbaijan had much more continuity at the top.”

We should all be aware that “Azerbaijan lost territory right at the beginning of the restoration of its statehood, when it was basically a failed state run by armchair nationalist amateurs [before Heydar Aliyev, Ilham’s father, came to power]. And Armenia was a mess, too but less so when you take into consideration that it had strong Russian support and Azerbaijan had no one. Back in the day, Turkey was still a secular state with a military that looked West and took its NATO membership seriously. Since then, Azerbaijan has built up its economy and increased its population. So it kept getting stronger. But its military was still underperforming.”

That slowly started to change in 2020: “Basically, in the past few months you’ve seen incremental increases in the intensity of near daily ceasefire violations (the near-daily violations are nothing new: they’ve been going on for years). So this blew up in July and there was a shooting war for a few days. Then everyone calmed down again.”

All this time, something important was developing in the background: Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, who came to power in May 2018, and Aliyev started to talk: “The Azerbaijani side thought this indicated Armenia was ready for compromise (this all started when Armenia had a sort of revolution, with the new PM coming in with a popular mandate to clean house domestically). For whatever reason, it ended up not happening.”

What happened in fact was the July shooting war.

Don’t forget Pipelineistan

Armenian PM Pashinyan could be described as a liberal globalist. The majority of his political team is pro-NATO. Pashinyan went all guns blazing against former Armenian President (1998- 2008) Robert Kocharian, who before that happened to be, crucially, the de facto President of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Kocharian, who spent years in Russia and is close to President Putin, was charged with a nebulous attempt at “overthrowing the constitutional order”. Pashinyan tried to land him in jail. But even more crucial is the fact that Pashinyan refused to follow a plan elaborated by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov to finally settle the Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh mess.

In the current fog of war, things are even messier. Mr. C stresses two points: “First, Armenia asked for CSTO protection and got bitch slapped, hard and in public; second, Armenia threatened to bomb the oil and gas pipelines in Azerbaijan (there are several, they all run parallel, and they supply not just Georgia and Turkey but now the Balkans and Italy). With regards to the latter, Azerbaijan basically said: if you do that, we’ll bomb your nuclear reactor.”

ORDER IT NOW

The Pipelineistan angle is indeed crucial: for years I have followed on Asia Times these myriad, interlocking oil and gas soap operas, especially the BTC (Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan), conceived by Zbigniew Brzezinski to bypass Iran. I was even “arrested” by a BP 4X4 when I was tracking the pipeline on a parallel side road out of the massive Sangachal terminal: that proved British Petroleum was in practice the real boss, not the Azerbaijani government.

In sum, now we have reached the point where, according to Mr. C,

“Armenia’s saber rattling got more aggressive.” Reasons, on the Armenian side, seem to be mostly domestic: terrible handling of Covid-19 (in contrast to Azerbaijan), and the dire state of the economy. So, says Mr. C, we came to a toxic concourse of circumstances: Armenia deflected from its problems by being tough on Azerbaijan, while Azerbaijan just had had enough.

It’s always about Turkey

Anyway one looks at the Armenia-Azerbaijan drama, the key destabilizing factor is now Turkey.

Mr. C notes how, “throughout the summer, the quality of the Turkish-Azerbaijani military exercises increased (both prior to July events and subsequently). The Azerbaijani military got a lot better. Also, since the fourth quarter of 2019 the President of Azerbaijan has been getting rid of the (perceived) pro-Russian elements in positions of power.” See, for instance, here.

There’s no way to confirm it either with Moscow or Ankara, but Mr. C advances what President Erdogan may have told the Russians: “We’ll go into Armenia directly if a) Azerbaijan starts to lose, b) Russia goes in or accepts CSTO to be invoked or something along those lines, or c) Armenia goes after the pipelines. All are reasonable red lines for the Turks, especially when you factor in the fact that they don’t like the Armenians very much and that they consider the Azerbaijanis brothers.”

It’s crucial to remember that in August, Baku and Ankara held two weeks of joint air and land military exercises. Baku has bought advanced drones from both Turkey and Israel. There’s no smokin’ gun, at least not yet, but Ankara may have hired up to 4,000 Salafi-jihadis in Syria to fight – wait for it – in favor of Shi’ite-majority Azerbaijan, proving once again that “jihadism” is all about making a quick buck.

The United Armenian Information Center, as well as the Kurdish Afrin Post, have stated that Ankara opened two recruitment centers – in Afrin schools – for mercenaries. Apparently this has been a quite popular move because Ankara slashed salaries for Syrian mercenaries shipped to Libya.

There’s an extra angle that is deeply worrying not only for Russia but also for Central Asia. According to the former Foreign Minister of Nagorno-Karabakh, Ambassador Extraordinary Arman Melikyan, mercenaries using Azeri IDs issued in Baku may be able to infiltrate Dagestan and Chechnya and, via the Caspian, reach Atyrau in Kazakhstan, from where they can easily reach Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

That’s the ultimate nightmare of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) – shared by Russia, China and the Central Asian “stans”: a jihadi land – and (Caspian) sea – bridge from the Caucasus all the way to Central Asia, and even Xinjiang.

What’s the point of this war?

So what happens next? A nearly insurmountable impasse, as Mr. C outlines it:

1. “The peace talks are going nowhere because Armenia is refusing to budge (to withdraw from occupying Nagorno-Karabakh plus 7 surrounding regions in phases or all at once, with the usual guarantees for civilians, even settlers – note that when they went in in the early 1990s they cleansed those lands of literally all Azerbaijanis, something like between 700,000 and 1 million people).”

2. Aliyev was under the impression that Pashinyan “was willing to compromise and began preparing his people and then looked like someone with egg on his face when it didn’t happen.”

3. “Turkey has made it crystal clear it will support Azerbaijan unconditionally, and has matched those words with deeds.”

4. “In such circumstances, Russia got outplayed – in the sense that they had been able to play off Armenia against Azerbaijan and vice versa, quite successfully, helping to mediate talks that went nowhere, preserving the status quo that effectively favored Armenia.”

And that brings us to the crucial question. What’s the point of this war?

Mr. C: “It is either to conquer as much as possible before the “international community” [in this case, the UNSC] calls for / demands a ceasefire or to do so as an impetus for re-starting talks that actually lead to progress. In either scenario, Azerbaijan will end up with gains and Armenia with losses. How much and under what circumstances (the status and question of Nagorno-Karabakh is distinct from the status and question of the Armenian occupied territories around Nagorno-Karabakh) is unknown: i.e. on the field of battle or the negotiating table or a combo of both. However this turns out, at a minimum Azerbaijan will get to keep what it liberated in battle. This will be the new starting point. And I suspect that Azerbaijan will do no harm to the Armenian civilians that stay. They’ll be model liberators. And they’ll take time to bring back Azerbaijani civilians (refugees/IDPs) to their homes, especially in areas that would become mixed as a result of return.”

So what can Moscow do under these circumstances? Not much, “except to go into Azerbaijan proper, which they won’t do (there’s no land border between Russia and Armenia; so although Russia has a military base in Armenia with one or more thousand troops, they can’t just supply Armenia with guns and troops at will, given the geography).”

Crucially, Moscow privileges the strategic partnership with Armenia – which is a member of the Eurasia Economic Union (EAEU) – while meticulously monitoring each and every NATO-member Turkey’s movement: after all, they are already in opposing sides in both Libya and Syria.

So, to put it mildly, Moscow is walking on a geopolitical razor’s edge. Russia needs to exercise restraint and invest in a carefully calibrated balancing act between Armenia and Azerbaijan; must preserve the Russia-Turkey strategic partnership; and must be alert to all, possible US Divide and Rule tactics.

Inside Erdogan’s war

So in the end this would be yet another Erdogan war?

ORDER IT NOW

The inescapable Follow the Money analysis would tells us, yes. The Turkish economy is an absolute mess, with high inflation and a depreciating currency. Baku has a wealth of oil-gas funds that could become readily available – adding to Ankara’s dream of turning Turkey also into an energy supplier.

Mr. C adds that anchoring Turkey in Azerbaijan would lead to “the creation of full-fledged Turkish military bases and the inclusion of Azerbaijan in the Turkish orbit of influence (the “two countries – one nation” thesis, in which Turkey assumes supremacy) within the framework of neo-Ottomanism and Turkey’s leadership in the Turkic-speaking world.”

Add to it the all-important NATO angle. Mr. C essentially sees it as Erdogan, enabled by Washington, about to make a NATO push to the east while establishing that immensely dangerous jihadi channel into Russia: “This is no local adventure by Erdogan. I understand that Azerbaijan is largely Shi’ite Islam and that will complicate things but not render his adventure impossible.”

This totally ties in with a notorious RAND report that explicitly details how “the United States could try to induce Armenia to break with Russia” and “encourage Armenia to move fully into the NATO orbit.”

It’s beyond obvious that Moscow is observing all these variables with extreme care. That is reflected, for instance, in how irrepressible Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova, earlier this week, has packaged a very serious diplomatic warning: “The downing of an Armenian SU-25 by a Turkish F-16, as claimed by the Ministry of Defense in Armenia, seems to complicate the situation, as Moscow, based on the Tashkent treaty, is obligated to offer military assistance to Armenia”.

It’s no wonder both Baku and Yerevan got the message and are firmly denying anything happened.

The key fact remains that as long as Armenia proper is not attacked by Azerbaijan, Russia will not apply the CSTO treaty and step in. Erdogan knows this is his red line. Moscow has all it takes to put him in serious trouble – as in shutting off gas supplies to Turkey. Moscow, meanwhile, will keep helping Yerevan with intel and hardware – flown in from Iran. Diplomacy rules – and the ultimate target is yet another ceasefire.

Pulling Russia back in

Mr. C advances the strong possibility – and I have heard echoes from Brussels – that “the EU and Russia find common cause to limit Azerbaijani gains (in large part because Erdogan is no one’s favorite guy, not just because of this but because of the Eastern Med, Syria, Libya).”

That brings to the forefront the renewed importance of the UNSC in imposing a ceasefire. Washington’s role at the moment is quite intriguing. Of course, Trump has more important things to do at the moment. Moreover, the Armenian diaspora in the US swings drastically pro-Democrat.

Then, to round it all up, there’s the all-important Iran-Armenia relationship. Here is a forceful attempt to put it in perspective.

As Mr. C stresses, “Iran favors Armenia, which is counter-intuitive at first sight. So the Iranians may help the Russians out (funneling supplies), but on the other hand they have a good relationship with Turkey, especially in the oil and gas smuggling business. And if they get too overt in their support, Trump has a casus belli to get involved and the Europeans may not like to end up on the same side as the Russians and the Iranians. It just looks bad. And the Europeans hate to look bad.”

We inevitably come back to the point that the whole drama can be interpreted from the perspective of a NATO geopolitical hit against Russia – according to quite a few analyses circulating at the Duma.

Ukraine is an absolute black hole. There’s the Belarus impasse. Covid-19. The Navalny circus. The “threat” to Nord Stream-2.

To pull Russia back into the Armenia-Azerbaijan drama means turning Moscow’s attention towards the Caucasus so there’s more Turkish freedom of action in other theaters – in the Eastern Mediterranean versus Greece, in Syria, in Libya. Ankara – foolishly – is engaged in simultaneous wars on several fronts, and with virtually no allies.

What this means is that even more than NATO, monopolizing Russia’s attention in the Caucasus most of all may be profitable for Erdogan himself. As Mr. C stresses, “in this situation, the Nagorno-Karabakh leverage/’trump card’ in the hands of Turkey would be useful for negotiations with Russia.”

No question: the neo-Ottoman sultan never sleeps.

(Republished from Asia Times by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Russia, Turkey 
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  1. Yevardian says:

    And I suspect that Azerbaijan will do no harm to the Armenian civilians that stay. They’ll be model liberators. And they’ll take time to bring back Azerbaijani civilians (refugees/IDPs) to their homes, especially in areas that would become mixed as a result of return.”

    I never read such rubbish in my life.

  2. AJ says:
    @Yevardian

    Agreed, this is rubbish. “Mr. C” – assuming someone like this even exists, is either terribly misinformed or an outright liar. Basically, if we follow Escobar’s logic, Armenian’s are making a mistake by not agreeing to surrender their lives to the peace loving and rather humanistic dictatorship of Azerbaijan. While he touches on some relevant points, overall, Escobar has not done his homework and has come up with quite a bit of drivel.

    • Agree: SIMP simp
  3. Pepe, you didn’t mention the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, all perpetrated by Turkey.

    Why not? Would the Azeris, all Turks, be different? You say the Azeris if they won, Turks, would treat the Armenian population nicely. Huh?

    I remember from Runciman’s book on the First Crusade that the Turks had already taken over much of Anatolia but he seems to mention Armenians at every turn (from memory—don’t have the book handy).

    My impression is that before the Genocide the Armenians were all over Anatolia. There was a narrow coastal strip at the western end that was historically part of Greece, and many different peoples of Asia Minor are mentioned in the NT, but they arguably were all Armenians, making the Armenians the indigenous people of Anatolia.

    How is it that Turkey was allowed to keep part of Europe after WWI when they were losers? And did they keep faith? Is the current St Sophia turmoil the norm of Turkish good faith?

    Time for all the Turks to get out of Anatolia, give it back to Armenia, and head for Azerbigan.

  4. Aking says:

    Good article. What a web of “ frenemies”…

  5. Anon[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yevardian

    I believe that it was Winston Churchill who said that the Turk was either at your feet or at your throat, Erdogan, not having been disciplined for some years now is, once again, at the throat of the west. Europe spent millions of lives and huge resources throwing the Moors out last time. If they don’t take a stand and support Armenia they may very well have to do it again. As far as the mythical Mr C is concerned he comes across, to me, as yet another apologist for the Religion of Peace. Obviously cucked NATO will not help Armenia, they have neither the intestinal fortitude nor the will, so it will be left to Russia and the Visigrad nations, in the mean time Turkey is attempting to take Greek territory, Syrian territory, Libyan territory and anything else that it can get it’s mitts on and the West does absolutely nothing. This will not end well.

  6. I found this piece difficult to read: lots of data and suppositions scattered about.

    Ankara, oh Ankara! Erdogan is overstretched, that’s a fact.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  7. Wielgus says:
    @Yevardian

    I think few Armenian civilians will take the chance but I very much doubt Azerbaijanis will be “model liberators”. The new Azerbaijani state was born from the Sumgait and Baku pogroms. I also don’t think they will delay in moving Azeris into areas formerly inhabited by Armenians – their role model Erdoğan has been trying to change facts on the ground by moving ethnic Turks into Kurdish areas in his own country.

  8. @Ann Nonny Mouse

    I have positively followed your comments on many occasions.

    However, on this one I beg to differ a little.

    The Armenians and Azeris lived together and a good part of Baku was Armenian until this Ngoro-Karabakh war and the Armenians helped to make the city a very vibrant place.

    We must admit that the Azeris were brutally ethnically cleansed from Nagoro-Karabakh and surrounding areas by all accounts.

    On my first business trip there soon after this war I was taken on a govt sponsored tour of a giant , very gigantic war cemetery. Not very warming.

    Although their was ethnic cleansings to Genocides done by Turkey in WWI, Armenians keep blaming Turks and Moslems in general, which is wrong. The Govt of Turkey was overthrown in 1905 by the Young Turks and they totally ran the show until Turkey’s WWI defeat when the Sultan regained limited control until Ataturk took over again in 1923. Needless to say, the Young Turks were anti-Muslim and anti-Christian by all accounts.

    Sure eastern Anatolia was Armenian back 1600 years ago or so and Turks came in from Central Asia, but what do, everyone moved around then including the Russians. By most accounts a large part of the Anatolian Armenians converted to Islam like the Greeks in eastern Anatolia and assimilated into modern day Turkic culture, whatever that is. Armenia in Byzantine times stretched all the way down into Syria but did not make them all Armenians. People tend with time to assume the language, culture and religion of their rulers, assuming they are benevolent.

    Most religious-nationalist groupings deny that anyone leaves their great ethnic or religious stock (or melts into another), but that is a very common phenomenon throughout history and until this very day. Ask any anthropologist. Today the world is all speaking English, 3oo years ago it was French, before that Italian or Arabic. Religious -ethnic or linguistic groups are always changing and moving. It is not fixed and one comes in and one goes out.

    I personally believe the Armenians in their super nationalistic outlook made a mistake with this Nagoro-Karabakh endeavor, even if they were the majority, though most accounts say they were 40%.

    I would strongly urge the Armenians to get off their nationalist high horse and solve the problem diplomatically and learn to live with their neighbors. Super nationalism is a dangerous and fake mantra that usually leads to disaster. My understanding was that the Azeris and Armenians always got along before this debacle. They should try to work out things and get back to a their original multi-cultural paradigm, that is living side by side instead of fighting and dying over territory and national flags. Live is short and when we pass to the other side you dont carry your flag with you.

    • Thanks: Ann Nonny Mouse
  9. Rahan says:

    The Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh declared independence in 1991: but that was not recognized by the “international community”

    Just to throw in quickly that if Kosovo is “recognized”, then bleeding Karabakh should also long since have been recognized. Especially since the Armenians have an actual holocaust in their 20th century past.

    • Replies: @Aking
  10. reezy says:
    @Anon

    I believe that it was Winston Churchill who said that the Turk was either at your feet or at your throat

    Actually he said that about the Germans. Though it sounds like one of those patronizing aphorisms that can easily apply to anyone.

  11. Lin says:

    Sabre dance–A famous piece of Armenian music composed by Khachaturian

    • Replies: @anon
  12. Aking says:
    @Rahan

    So, seems like the way to get sympathy to rob territory is to make full use of any “genocide” one had suffered as excuse…. worked very well ( in fact, spectacularly well) so faR with the Chosen ones….

  13. Well i admittedly dont know enough about the situation to try to critique this piece as some of the other comments on here… But i am skeptical about Armenia and their stated intent. If it is reallly about protecting an ethnic group – then why not offer them citizenship to move into your territory??? That would lead me to believe it is more about land and resources…

  14. @true.enough

    Yeah i dont know the nitty gritty in this conflict – but i do agree Edrogan seems to be biting off more than he can chew… He has too many pots on the fire it seems. Kurds – Qatar/Saudis – Libya – Syria – Greece – Cyprus – and now this..?

  15. Derer says:

    Aside from refusing to participate against their Muslim cousins (Afghanistan, Libya), Turkey is using NATO doctrine quite effectively. It is a useful bullet prove vest for Erdogan. The Brussels morons will be sorry for not expelling Turkey from their military club long time ago.

  16. SZ says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    The deportation of Armenians from Anatolia to what is now Syria happened a full thousand years after the Turks got hold of Anatolia. In other words, the Armenians had not been cleansed of their ancient lands for a full thousand years even though they were politically and militarily dominated by the Turks. Similarly, the deportation of Crimean Tatars to Central Asia occurred two centuries after the Russians got hold of Crimea.
    In both cases the reason for the deportations (and the resulting loss of life on the way and at the destinations) were the actual or presumed collaboration with invading armies at the times. Large parts of the Armenian population were driven to the Syrian desert AFTER some of them had aligned with the Russians who were about to invade eastern Anatolia in 1915. Similarly, most of Crimean Tatars were expelled from Crimea AFTER some of them had aligned with the invading Germans in 1941. As another comparison, American-Japanese living at the Pacific coast were banished to camps in the interior AFTER the Japanese army had attacked Pearl Harbor and not before.
    When a group of people kill or drive out another group it’s usually not for the fun of it but rather due to necessities of survival, whatever evil that might require at that particular time depending on the particular circumstances.

  17. Surprised says:

    It would be interesting to read a scholarly exposition on what the USSR and governments in Eastern Europe proper did or did not do to educate people away from their ancient hatreds, and why whatever they did do appears not to have been particularly successful. Or was it mostly successful and the hatreds were much more intense before 1917?

  18. @SZ

    The ethnic cleansing of the Armenians was pretty bloody and barbaric and was meant as a public spectacle for reasons that are argued about till today.

    It was well recorded by the inhabitants of Syria.

    Uprising against your rulers does not give the rulers right to carry out genocide or ethnic cleansing in any case.

    • Replies: @GMC
  19. Anonymous[334] • Disclaimer says:

    The entire Jewish American lobby and Israel are on Azerbaijan’s side and anti-Armenian, just as when they were working with Turkey to deny the Armenian genocide.

    Israel has also sold billions of dollars of weapons to Azerbaijan which the latter is using against Armenians. Israel gets oil from Azerbaijan

    Of course, Azerbaijan and Turkey have imported jihadists from Syria and Libya to fight Christian Armenians now.

    Apparently, Pepe, you and the Jewish lobby, Israel, Turkey, and the jihadists are on the same side.

    Congratulations.

    P.S. It would take a hundred pages to list all the factual errors you made. For example, Armenians were still the clear majority in Artsakh/Karabagh in 1988 and 1991. Armenians there had been grossly mistreated by Azerbaijan for decades.

    The fighting occurred in the late 1980s only because Azerbaijan, backed by the Russian military, killed and harrassed Armenians. The Azeris also committed massacres of Armenians who were living in Baku and Sumgait in the late 1980s.

    Stalin also placed Nakhichevan, an Armenian territory, inside Azerbaijan.
    Azerbaijan kicked out every Armenian from Nakhichevan. Azerbaijan was doing that to Artsakh/Karabagh too.

    No wonder Artsakh voted to be independent from Azerbaijan, something you don’t want to understand.
    Better luck next time trying to fool readers, Pepe.

    • Thanks: Robjil
    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    , @Barr
  20. The key fact remains that as long as Armenia proper is not attacked by Azerbaijan, Russia will not apply the CSTO treaty and step in. Erdogan knows this is his red line. Moscow has all it takes to put him in serious trouble – as in shutting off gas supplies to Turkey.

    Russia isn’t going to shut off gas to Turkey. Russia never does that (shutting off gas). It’s a Western canard.

    Russia could, however, impose a no-fly-zone over Georgia, effectively blocking resupply and reinforcements to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is almost completely surrounded by Russian allies and bases. They rely on Georgia for military transit.

  21. Druid says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    Ignorant post. Armenian nationalist were active in Russia prior to ww1, then supported Russian entrance into Turkish territory because they shared a religion. They stabbed the ottomans , of which they were a big part, in the back. The young Turks , who were actually donmeh jews, had them marched off to Syria and lebanon, etc, causing many deaths! The Armenian is still causing trouble for the Turks. They sided with the mongols in their battles against the Muslims, along wit the Georgians, repeatedly. More to a small story

  22. anon[154] • Disclaimer says:

    What’s going to happen to USA? The poverty and racial intolerance ,both seem to be undermining the stability and the ideological integrity of the country . I see many states emerging from the body of America.But the problems will not be resolved . It might just like like Caucasian territory or Balkan .

  23. Anonymous[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yevardian

    Pepe appears to be on the side of Azerbaijan, and thus also on the side of Turkey, Israel, the Jewish lobby, and jihadists.

    Nice company.

  24. vot tak says:

    Reading this, my suspicion is this “mr. c” is part of the western disinformation machine, probably operating for the israelis.

    • Replies: @Ugetit
  25. 1. BTC is described as ‘bypassing Iran’. One could easily argue it also bypasses *Russia*. Perhaps that’s what made it necessary for Soros & others to peel Georgia off from Russian control back in the day? Look how Russia responded by recapturing the Georgian Military Highway (South Ossetia).

    2. Look in general at how Russia is willing to give up huge areas of territory so long as she keeps key strategic points of control: South Ossetia, Crimea, Transnistria, Abkhazia and… Armenia. Smell the coffee.

    3. 2. ‘Mr. C’ is quick to mention Baku/Ankara joint exercises in August, but fails to mention Kavkas 2020 exercises led by Russia. Uh duh.

    4. ‘Mr. C’ seems to ignore the fact that Armenia couldn’t have taken that territory in first place, or kept it, w/out Russian assistance. And idea ‘Russia can do nothing’ is absurd. As is the idea that Russia can’t supply Armenia because there’s no land connection. Did the allies have any problem keeping West Berlin supplied by air? Of course not. All nonsense.

    5. The idea that there is a ‘Russia/Turkey’ strategic partnership is also silly. Where is this partnership? Turkey buying S-400s? So what? Are they in partnership in Syria? In Libya? No. So why would they be in N-K?

    6. Weird. No mention of China and it’s growing relationship with Turkey. This probably tells you all you need to know about the author. Unless of course the author is just a fool, which is also possible.

  26. Jivinski says:

    “Yet even before the collapse the Azerbaijani Army and Armenian independentists were already at war (1988-1994), which yielded a grim balance of 30,000 dead and roughly a million wounded.”

    This is a wounded-to-killed ratio of thirty-three to one. Doesn’t make sense.

  27. Were Russia to be as devious and underhanded as the puppet regime in the Di$trict of Corruption, they would arrange for an overthrow of the present NATO/EU/U$ regime in Yerevan. With those bastards out of the way and Armenia no longer playing double jeopardy, it might be possible for a new Orthodox oriented Armenian government to come to some sort of arrangement with Baku.

    At the same time, perhaps Syrian spetsnaz units could practice some infiltration tactics into Turkish semi-occupied “greater” Idlib and Ghurka style, behead a few Turkish officers running the show there.

    “Sultan” Erdogan is playing loose and wild with his shattering economy and massive military. It is high time he was given a black-eye–one that would cause him to lose face among his own countrymen.

  28. Mactoul says:
    @SZ

    How many of the Japanese-American deportees died as consequence of deportation vs how many Armenians that died as consequence of their deportation.

    It is not deportation that is alleged to be the Turkish crime but genocide. Please keep it mind.

    • Replies: @Blade
  29. This is my educated guess, the Anglo-Zionists led by Rothschild and Netanayahu destablize the oil in the Middle East to keep their prices of oil in USD above 100 $/barrel

    They have also blown up oil derricks in the North Sea, shut down Iranian and Iraq and Syria oil production. The game is clear, low oil prices are being met with wiping out the competition.

    And causing hell in Iran and Venezueala. Back in 1954 Operation Ajax took out Mossadeq and installed the Shah – puppet of big oil. Before it was BP it was the Persian Gulf Oil Co. BP is owned mostly by the crown.

    Trump’s secretary of state was Rex Tillerson CEO Exxon just like GW Bush picked Condoleeza Rice CEO Chevron to be his national security advisor.

    The Israel angle is to get Iran and to goad Russia into war with the USA, the eventually goal is that USA-Russia-China are reduced while Jews rule the world from Jerusalem.

    How much you wanna bet Bibi Satanyahu has a hand in this war? And Evangelical Christians will support Israel even if this war kills lots of Armenian Christians just like in Syria.

    Since this war in on Russia’s doorstep Putin an Lavrov will try negotiations first then what will they do next. Putin has vowed the war will never come to Russia which means Russia will enter the theater on the anti-Zionist side.

    Have you noticed every state within a few hundred miles of Israel is being torched and the natives driven out?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Ukraine Tiger
  30. Ghali says:

    Back again to Pepe Escobar’s distortions of reality. Nagorno-Karabakh is an Armenian-occupied Azerbaijani territory. In fact, no country in the world recognises it as an “Independent” as Escobar likes to mislead us. Armenia should do the right thing and withdraw its forces, including foreign militants from there. Like Israel, Armenia is playing the role of a victim of a “holocaust”.

    • Replies: @Majority of One
  31. GMC says:

    Considering that the 2nd largest US/NWO Embassy in the World is in Armenia – a country of 2.9 million people, and that the new President was put in power by the West – the end game is to continue to surround Russia, screw up the New Silk Road, and be at Iran’s back door too. As said before , the domestic USA can totally look like the USSR in the 90s, but the NWO Foreign policy money is 100% – guaranteed. What do all those thousands of workers in that huge Embassy compound do ?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  32. GMC says:
    @Tommy Thompson

    Actually, once the Armenians were genocided , the Jewish bankers were the big shots left in Turkey. H Morgenthau, our Turkish ambassador along with being jewish himself, wrote about it in his reports. The Game hasn’t changed much – it stays the same. Thanks.

  33. J says:

    About a third of Iran’s population is Azeri. Should they develop interest in the conflict, Iran may become involved. That would align Turkey and Iran vs Russia. That would be something.

    • Replies: @Avery
  34. ARemo says:
    @Yevardian

    Damn right. We already have experience what happens when Turks get control of Christian Armenians – systematic gang rapes and death marches are the rule of the day. Turks are animals and letting them control any portion of Armenia is basically turning that place into a concentration camp.

  35. @Yevardian

    “Mr. C” probably stands for Cemal, given how biased he is.

  36. anon[229] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yukon Jack

    And causing hell in Iran and Venezueala. Back in 1954 Operation Ajax took out Mossadeq and installed the Shah – puppet of big oil. Before it was BP it was the Persian Gulf Oil Co. BP is owned mostly by the crown.

    Correcting anti-Iranian lies regarding the “installation” of the Shah of Iran:

    We note HIM Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi became Shah of Iran in 1941:

    On 16 September 1941, Prime Minister Forughi and Foreign Minister Ali Soheili attended a special session of parliament to announce the resignation of Reza Shah and that Mohammad Reza was to replace him. The next day, at 4:30 pm, Mohammad Reza took the oath of office and was received warmly by parliamentarians. On his way back to the palace, the streets filled with people welcoming the new Shah jubilantly, seemingly more enthusiastic than the Allies would have liked.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi#Ascension_to_the_throne

    Claim that Shah of Iran was a “big puppet of Big Oil”:

    Fact: Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi was not the sovereign that entered into exploitive legal (national level) agreements between (Turkic) Qajar dynasty ruling Iran and the evil empire of the British.

    Fact: During his early reign (never rule) from 1941-1953 the Shah of Iran strictly observed Iranian Constitutional requirements regarding the limits placed on the Shah of Iran (then Qajar) by the Iranian Revolution of

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Constitution_of_1906
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Constitutional_Revolution

    Fact: The young reigning but not ruling Shah of Iran, prior to Mossadegh (a Qajar prince) assuming dictatorial power and ruling Iran during his entire government (the fabled “democractic iran of ’53”) under martial law, supported Mohammad Mossadeqh ol-Sultaneh and nationalization of Iran’s oil. Almost everyone, obviously, supported ending the exploitation. The question was, how to do this, given the dire economic and geopolitical condition of Iran. Shah had NOTHING to do with these conditions, btw.

    When Mosaddegh’s father died in 1892, his uncle was appointed the tax collector of the Khorasan province and was bestowed with the title of Mosaddegh-os-Saltaneh by Nasser al-Din Shah

    Fact: Princeling Mohammad Mossadegh ol-Sultaneh was a Freemason. A founding member of Iran’s lodge.

    Fact: Princeling Mohammad Mossadegh was recommened for his first job under Qajar dynasty by the English

    Fact: Prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh was dismissed per consitution of Iran by the King of Iran.

    Fact: No one “installed” the Shah of Iran. Iranian nationalists oppossing the radical Islamists (Fadeyin Islam) and radical Stalinists (Tudeh party of Iran), and a National Front faction under leadership of “democratic” Shazdeh (“prince”) Mossadegh ran a brutal security regime, decided to save the nation from inevitable dismemberment — Stalin would take Azerbaijan, and English would take the oil fields in Khuzestan.

    Fact: Iran experienced unprecedented progress (on all fronts), nearly universal friendship, and exceptional economic growth during the time that Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi ruled post 1953.

    Fact: 1979 was the year that “big oil” LEGAL contracts were to expire and the “puppet” Shah had threatened as early as 1973 (when he was instrumental in making OPEC a powerful entity) that in 1979 Iran “would sell Iranian Oil to any buyer, at market prices”.

    Fact: Iran, in 1978 produced 6 million barrels per day. It has never been permitted to reach those levels again.

    Fact: Chinese, Indian, Syrian, Venezuelan, and God knows who else, all projects of the Global Cabal have been getting Iranian Oil (under their engineered boxing of Iranian nation) at levels that very likely are equal if not LOWER than the terms the Qajar idiots gave the insatiablely greedy and slimey English.

    • Troll: Showmethereal, vot tak
  37. Alfred says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    Pepe, you didn’t mention the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, all perpetrated by Turkey.

    And you did not mention that the only quarters of Smyrna/Izmir that were not torched in a fire in 1922 were the Jewish and Turkish quarters – what a surprise! An antecedent to 9/11. Here is the Jewpedia hiding the real story – as usual.

    The Armenian and Greek quarters were destroyed and the Jews got a monopoly on the commerce. Done deal!

    Great fire of Smyrna

    • Thanks: Ugetit, Robjil
    • Replies: @Дима Трамп
  38. Wielgus says:
    @GMC

    If the “colour revolution” assumptions were in force, there would be a host of denunciations of Azerbaijan and Turkey (the latter perhaps the real prime mover in this) by the USA and EU etc. There aren’t. The USA and EU may even tacitly support the Azerbaijanis, perhaps they hope the Russians and Iranians will become entangled in this affair and so forth.

    • Replies: @GMC
  39. Ugetit says:
    @vot tak

    …my suspicion is this “mr. c” is part of the western disinformation machine, probably operating for the israelis.

    While I know nothing about the situation, after reading the article and the mostly excellent comments, I suspect your suspicion is correct.

  40. Alfred says:

    I have a suggestion.

    How about swapping Nagorno-Karabakh for North Cyprus. I am sure the Greeks would be very happy to live with the Armenians. But the Sultan’s dreams of owning the Eastern Mediterranean would come to naught.

    • Replies: @Blade
  41. anon[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    I’ve always associated that piece with the circus not knowing the title or its origin.

  42. @Anonymous

    Stalin did nasty things like that to keep the republics feuding with each other rather than pushing back against Moscow. The mixed-up borders of the ‘stans, further east, are testament to this. Fergana Valley?

    Divide and rule. Still costing lives in pointless wars almost 100 years later.

  43. At stake is the very existence of the Armenian people. Turkey is trying to finish what remains of them after the genocide last century. Both Erdoghan and Aliev have stated, that they want a “final solution” to the “Armenian problem”.

    It’s an existential battle for the Armenians.

  44. @Yevardian

    We all know what they did to the Armenians in 1915.

  45. @Alfred

    Exactly. The history of Turkey since 1880-s is full of ethnic cleansings and genocides of the non-muslim people such as Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.

    • Replies: @Tommy Thompson
  46. MLK says:

    My thanks to Escobar for taking on a subject rather obviously not susceptible to 2,700 word essays, along with attention worthy links.

    His biases are not my own but he’s thoughtful and certainly doesn’t hide them.

    In this and so many other incidents we can see how thoroughly Trump has moved the American ship of state despite the relentless efforts of foreign and domestic resistance to neutralize America First and destroy him.

    It’s really quite something the way Obama’s presidency in all its disastrous fullness has been memory-holed. The defense of it being that it merely extended Bush’s world-historical incompetence and malefactions.

    Could you have turned US unipolarity following the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact into a “moment” if you tried? I couldn’t.

    You will be way ahead of most everyone if you get your mind around that and the geopolitical sad story that is CCP China winning the post-Cold War quarter-century hands down.

    We inevitably come back to the point that the whole drama can be interpreted from the perspective of a NATO geopolitical hit against Russia – according to quite a few analyses circulating at the Duma.

    Ukraine is an absolute black hole. There’s the Belarus impasse. Covid-19. The Navalny circus. The “threat” to Nord Stream-2.

    To pull Russia back into the Armenia-Azerbaijan drama means turning Moscow’s attention towards the Caucasus . . .

    I confess that I get no end of enjoyment over bellyaching on behalf of those powers the Obama administration was turning the world over to. Nord Stream II was merely the down payment on Russia’s assistance/acquiescence in throwing the electron to Hillary, with the sky the limit for China, Russia and Iran once Democrats and their foreign allies had neutralized free and fair elections.

    Now all of these powers must deal with a real POTUS who asks “What have you done for the US lately?”

    The USG and Russia have cooperated where geopolitical interests align. More will follow once Trump takes the oath again. As I’ve explained previously, despite its high-risk position in the Resistance matrix, Russia/Putin have (unsurprisingly, to me) acted skillfully and with circumspection.

    The same cannot be said for Iran. Nor China, particularly since the end of last year.

  47. https://www.putin-today.ru/archives/109463
    https://vz.ru
    Михаил Мошкин

    Why Russia needs Azerbaijan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The aggravation of the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh has raised a number of questions. In particular, why Moscow is in no hurry to stand up for Armenia and why it does not sharply criticize
    Azerbaijan. The answer is that Moscow and Baku have very close relations, and not only economic relations. So what is the value and irreplaceability of Azerbaijan for Russia?

    [MORE]

    “The conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh raises serious concerns. Not because it is very close to our borders, but mainly because both Armenia and Azerbaijan are not strangers to us, we have special
    relations with both countries,” Vasily Nebenzia, Russia’s ambassador to the UN, recalled on the eve of Moscow’s position.

    “Yes, Turkey unequivocally supports Azerbaijan. But this does not mean that we are on the other side, supporting Armenia against Azerbaijan,” TASS quoted the Russian representative to the UN as saying. Moscow, Nebenzia stressed, is in favor of an immediate ceasefire by both sides, a fair settlement of the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict.

    The explanation of the Russian ambassador to the UN was made in the context of a discussion of whether Russia should support any of the parties in the aggravation of the situation in Nagorno-

    Karabakh – Armenia, which, like Russia, is a member of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), or Azerbaijan, which is associated with Russia’s economic contacts and military contracts. Azerbaijan is perceived and indeed is the closest partner of Turkey, which is now spurring Baku’s military campaign in Karabakh. Moscow, as Nebenzi’s words suggest, seeks to reconcile the parties and return Yerevan and Baku to the status quo before the conflict escalates.

    “Russia takes a neutral, equidisted position in the Karabakh conflict. For us, Azerbaijan is no less strategically valuable than Armenia,” Igor Korotchenko, a military expert and editor-in-chief of
    the National Defense magazine, said in a commentary to the newspaper Vzglyad. And good personal relations between Presidents Vladimir Putin and Ilham Aliyev became an important
    factor in Russian-Azerbaijan contacts, the interlocutor noted.

    “There is a “mutual chemistry” in the relationship between the two heads of state,sympathy, support and affection, which is important in international contacts. Our president is a restrained and cautious politician, most of the partners in international politics keep at a distance, so good relations with Aliyev are expensive,” the expert said. An example, in particular, is the friendly
    communication and joint performances of the two leaders on the platform of the Valdai Discussion Club in October last year.”The biographical moment is important here,” the interlocutor
    suggested. – The father of the current Azerbaijani president, the long-time leader of the republic Heydar Aliyev and Putin had a common job. Heydar Alievich was a state security officer who went
    from junior lieutenant to KGB chairman of the Azerbaijani USSR, after which his work as a statesman began, in the Politburo and the Council of Ministers of the USSR.”

    In general, according to Korotchenko, the “background” of the Aliyev family is clear for the Russian leader: “Ilham Aliyev is a graduate of MGIMO, he is equally good at Russian and English.”

    The armenian leader, Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, who came to power in the wake of the “color revolution” of 2018, believes the expert: “In my opinion, Aliyev’s and Putin’s personal contacts are
    much better than those of Putin and Pashinyan.” He stressed that it is about personal cooperation at the level of the leaders of the countries, and in interstate relations Moscow is equidistant (or, on
    the contrary, equally close) to both Yerevan and Baku.

    “Armenia is a member of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), but, by the way, Azerbaijan also expressed a desire to become an observer in this organization. Yerevan blocked
    this decision long before it was discussed,” the expert said.

    “Armenia buys Russian weapons, but Azerbaijan buys large volumes of our weapons. It is important that Baku is one of the few partners who pay with live money. Azerbaijan has a financial base
    for these purchases,” Korotchenko said. Armenia pays in the account of targeted loans issued to Yerevan by Moscow.

    “In recent years, Russia has sold more than $5 billion worth of weapons to Azerbaijan. These are multiple rocket launchers, heavy flamethrower systems, a huge number of modern tanks and
    armored personnel carriers, as well as S-300 systems in the latest version. A couple of months ago there were reports that Azerbaijan showed interest in the purchase of new Russian Su-35 and MiG-35 fighter jets,” the expert said.

    In addition, at the end of August, the parties exchanged visits. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu came to Baku, and the new Foreign Minister of Azerbaijan, Ceyhun Bayramov, visited Moscow the day
    after.

    Both countries are also interested in economic contacts – judging by the trade turnover, which last year exceeded 3 billion dollars, Ilgar Velizadeh, an Azerbaijani expert and head of the political club

    “South Caucasus” told the newspaper Vzglyad. The Russian Ministry of Economy recorded a two-fold increase in turnover at the end of last year.

    According to Velizadeh, the presence of a significant Azerbaijani diaspora in Russia is a major factor in the relations between the two countries. “Estimates of the number of Azerbaijanis in Russia are different. According to official statistics, about 600,000

    Azerbaijanis have Russian citizenship. The number of residents of our republic who live permanently or largely in Russia, or often come and go, exceeds three million people,” the Azerbaijani political scientist said.

    “The Azerbaijani business in Russia, in particular, in the sphere of services and trade, plays a driving force in these regional ties,” Velizadeh stressed. Azerbaijanis are also present in large Russian business. First of all, we should mention the native of Baku, Russian citizen Vagit Alekperov, president of Lukoil (the company’s capitalization as of last year exceeded 67.2 billion dollars, and the personal fortune of the businessman – 20.7 billion dollars). The co-owners of the “Kiev Square” group, Iliev and Year Nisanov (with a fortune of $3.5 billion), and Araz Agalarov ($1.9 billion), the president of Crocus Group holding, are also taking significant positions.

    “Statistics about the presence of Azerbaijanis in Russia vary, but in any case these people are the link between our countries,” Velizadeh said. “We should not forget that Azerbaijanis are also indigenous people of southern Russia – in Dagestan Derbent they make up more than 30% of the population.” The expert noted that Azerbaijan officially maintains relations with more than 80
    Russian regions.

    There is an area in which Russia and Azerbaijan compete fiercely – it is the supply of hydrocarbons, said Konstantin Simonov, director general of the National Energy Security Fund, in a commentary to the newspaper VgLYAD. “On the one hand, both we and they are involved in the OPEC deal, but on the other hand, we produce the same product and offer it to the same market,” the expert
    explained.

    “As for gas, Azerbaijan has bypassed us on its supplies to Turkey. The TANAP (Trans-Anatolian Pipeline) gas pipeline has been operational and about 6 billion tons will go to Turkey. And soon the
    TAP (Trans-Adriatic Pipeline) gas pipeline will open – the next part of the southern gas corridor, and Azerbaijan will supply 10 billion tons to the EU: 8 billion to Italy and 1 billion to Greece and
    Bulgaria,” the expert said.

    Russia is ready for this competition and Turkish volumes of supplies will not “close” Russian, but it confirms that Baku is a direct competitor of Moscow and in the gas market. “Azerbaijan was positioned by the Europeans as an alternative to Russia’s gas supplier, and the Southern Corridor as a diversification of Russian pipeline supplies,” Simonov said.

    In general, the relations between Moscow and Baku can be assessed as pragmatic and partnership. In particular, Russia obviously benefits from the supply of Azerbaijani products to our country, the expert noted. “We don’t compete on tomatoes,” Simonov said. But, he added, there is a fine detail in the mutually beneficial purchase and sale of Russian weapons – Baku buys it with “oil” money. “That is, it turns out such a thin chain: Azerbaijan sells oil, competing with us, and petrodollars spend on our military equipment,” Simonov said.

  48. Z-man says:

    Border and population changes are in order. A quarter of N-K goes back to Azerbaijan and the rest closer to Armenia proper plus the capital city goes to Armenia with a 50 mile wide band connecting it with the rest of Armenia. The Azeris get the rest of their lands now occupied by the Armenians. Will it happen? Probably not, just look at Kosovo..

  49. There is a province between Ngorno Karabakh and Armenia proper of roughly of the same size belonging to Azerbaijan, so why not just exchange it with each other to avoid further conflict and bloodshed?

    • Replies: @Дима Трамп
  50. @God's Fool

    There is no guarantee that Turkey will not try to then eliminate whatever remains of Armenia.

    Remember, Turkey genocided Armenians and wiped out close to 80% of them in 1915 through 1922. Armenian populated areas stretched from what is now Armenia until the shores of Eastern Mediterranean. The only thing that is left of it is Kessab in modern day Syria.

    • Replies: @God's Fool
  51. @Ghali

    It doesn’t matter a fat, furry, flying fuck whether the Armenian majority area that has recently been called Nagorno-Karabakh happened to be granted to Azerbaijan by Stalin. The fact is that it has been Armenian for thousands of years and international “law” (determined largely by the Cabal-controlled British and U$ Puppet regime) be damned. Most of the post-colonial borders are fake, false and fraudulent, whether in Asia or Africa. Over time, justice will prevail and borders will reflect the ethno-national composition of its long-term inhabitants.

    That said, the current regime in Yerevan needs to be overthrown, as it was established in conjunction with the interests of the Cabal/Nato and their various puppet regimes. Armenia is the oldest Orthodox Christian nation in the world and was severely genocided by the Donmeh covert Jewish Masons who called themselves the “Young Turks” who were led by Enver Pasha.

    By the way, who are you, Ghali? Do you have a dog in the fight? Are you connected with an intel agency?

    • Agree: Alfred, Robjil
    • Replies: @A.R.
    , @Ghali
    , @Tulan
  52. anaccount says:

    Excellent article, normally I pass over Pepe for the naughty articles on Unz but I might have to take another look.

    My only critique is that the article feels pro-Azeri but that’s balanced with an informative description how this started in July, including an accurate appraisal of Turkish behavior.

    I’m not Azeri or Armenian so I didn’t have a dog in this fight until I noticed Israel’s support for Azerbaijan. It’s nothing personal, I have only one hate.

  53. Shaman911 says:

    Jewish Bankers shifting profits to other Jewish bankers. Funding all sides and profiting from the mass graves again. 5000 years and nothing has changed.

  54. GMC says:
    @Wielgus

    The Turks are the US Army in this – with their proxy armies sent to help the Azerbaijanis, just like the US Army /Israelis and their proxies Isis, al Nusra, al Qaeda etc. in Syria. The US and their 6000 employees at the Embassy, don’t have to say anything – they back both sides – just like the Zionists do – in the US political parties. Things don’t change , Tactics don’t change. Thanks.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  55. A.R. says:
    @Majority of One

    You are asking him if he has a dog in this fight? What about yourself? You very clearly have a dog in this fight yourself, haven`t you?
    Try to cut down on the hypocrasy, why don`t you, and at the same time maybe moderate your “holier than thou” attitude.

    • Replies: @Majority of One
  56. TheIdiot says:

    This is by far the worst and most mis-informed article ever published by unz.

    Simples:

    This is a NATO (not Turkey) war for the qualification of Azerbaijan as a NATO member.

    The aim of this war is to rid AZ of “territorial entegrity issues” that are currently preventing AZ from NATO membership.

    The aim is to bring AZ and Georgia into NATO membership thereby cutting off completely Russia from Iran with a NATO buffer and making Caspian sea into a NATO sea.

    Long shot: discrediting Russia as a credible ally under Collective Security Treaty Organisation, bringing an end to that Treaty, pulling away Kazakhstan and bringing thereby an end to territorial integrity of RF.

    Armenian PM is the puppet of the West. Putin and his oligarchs are asleep and blinded by short-term-ism. Turkey is fully aligned with NATO highest command in this war, which is part of the bigger operation that includes Belorussia, Kyrgyzstan, “Novichok” and Sputnik V.

    Pepe, with all respect, do not write on subjects you have not even a slightest clue about! Because it harms the cause and it kills people, literally.

    • Thanks: John Regan
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  57. @TheIdiot

    Unfortunately, the new style of Russian nationalist are too dumb to realise what this is all about.

    • Replies: @TheIdiot
  58. TheIdiot says:
    @Agathoklis

    “dumb” in your statement = “greed”
    greed does not have a “national” affiliation or patriotism feelings
    it is selfish and thereby globalist in the pursuit of ever more money, possessions

  59. iffen says:
    @Yevardian

    How is it possible to string this many words together without saying anything?

  60. @A.R.

    Boy,did you misread that one. No dog in the fight whatsoforever.

    My ancestors immigrated to the U.S . between the late ’80’s and the era preceding WWI. They all came from Scandinavia, mostly from Norway. “Hypocrasy” (sic) and as for attitude, I’ve been upon this planet in this particular lifetime for 76 revolutions around the sun and opted out of the system in ’73 and live a very humble homesteading lifestyle. A slogan which may fit my situation was on a bumper-sticker given me by a friend: “Live simply so that others can simply live.” As for “holier than thou”, I am opposed to religions (particularly the monotheistic and monolithic Abrahamic ones. ) My preference is to try to walk the spiritual pathway.

    How about you, A.R.? What are your ethnic roots? What kind of lifestyle do you practice? Are you affiliated with one of the Abrahamic persuasions?

    • Replies: @A.R.
  61. @Anon

    Europe spent millions of lives and huge resources throwing the Moors out last time. If they don’t take a stand and support Armenia they may very well have to do it again.

    The Turks are well past the gate of Vienna, and Europeans by and large seem to celebrate this as diversity, all those wars and lives lost for nothing!

    [MORE]

  62. Avery says:
    @Yevardian

    Well said [Yevardian].

    I’ll add this:

    {And I suspect that Azerbaijan will do no harm to the Armenian civilians that stay. }

    In 1988 Azerbaijani/Turk gangs organized by the Fascist Turkic Musavat party massacred 100s of Soviet Armenians living in the fake state of Azerbaijan SSR: in the city of Kirovabad.
    In 1988 the same fascist Azerbaijani/Turk gangs massacred 100s of Soviet Armenians living in the Sumgait.
    In 1990 the same fascist Turk gangs massacred 100s* of Soviet Armenians living in the Baku.

    The Soviet Azerbaijani government was fully complicit: the murdering gangs were working from official residency lists, going from apartment to apartment and only murdering Armenians (and not Russians, for example).

    There is a long list of Azerbaijan/Turks atrocities and massacres against Armenians.

    {They’ll be model liberators.}

    Liberators? Surely you jest.
    The Azerbaijani/Turk invaders** are nomad Muslim Turks who invaded Caucasus from East and Central Asia.
    The nomad savages destroyed 1,000s of Armenian Christian cross stones in Nakhichevan a few years ago. It was all recorded. Nakhichevan is another Armenian province that Stalin “gave” to Azerbaijan. It is now completely ethnically cleansed of its indigenous Armenians.

    The same would have happened to Artsakh, if Armenians didn’t fight and win the 1988-1994 war.Armenians lands were liberated from invaders.

    {And they’ll take time to bring back Azerbaijani civilians (refugees/IDPs) to their homes,…}

    The so-called ‘refugees/IDPs’ were squatters on somebody else’s lands, whose indigenous people, Armenians, were ethnically cleansed, massacred, driven out….of their homes and lands.Turks’ homes are in East and Central Asia, not Caucasus.

    Clearly Mr. Escobar has no clue about the subject at hand, or has been fed the standard Azerbaijani/Turk talking points and is reproducing them here, or……something worse.
    ___________________________
    * In each case Soviet authorities published ‘official’ deaths of a few dozen.

    **The indigenous peoples of Azerbaijan are the Talysh, Lezgins, Tats, Avars,…Iranian stock peoples, who were subjugated and are presently oppressed by Azerbaijani/Turk invaders.

    • Thanks: Robjil
  63. Vigilius says: • Website

    To simplify . Ruling minority is not only pro American, they are working for CIA.
    American Embassy in Yerevan is after Baghdad biggest in the world . It looks more like
    military base then Embassy.
    Majority of the people are traditionally and moderately pro -Russian and now confused.
    CIA plot is : provoke the conflict , challenge Russia , does not matter if N.Karabakh
    is lost for Armenia – aim is to change public opinion of the majority against Russia.
    Then next step is making Armenia full Western ally as Georgia and Ukraine .
    So it is not that complex .

  64. Cato says:
    @Yevardian

    Seems that @Yevardian and those who replied to him are all part of the same Los Angeles Armenian Orthodox congregation that makes it its mission to control the narrative about Turkey and Armenia.

    • Replies: @Avery
  65. barr says:

    “Clash of Civilizations”? Exposing Armenia’s Infowar Strategy Against Azerbaijan
    1 Four UNSC Resolutions (822, 853, 874, 884) were passed in 1993 demanding that the Armenian military withdraw from universally recognized Azerbaijani territory. The continued presence of such forces on foreign lands against the will of its legitimate government is a violation of international law.
    2 “Azerbaijan Has The Legal Right To Request Turkish Military Assistance In Nagorno-Karabakh”,
    3 Armenian diaspora, Kurdish (PKK), and even ethnic Greek mercenaries whose activities in Nagorno-Karabakh would be illegal under international law. are operating in Armenia
    4 Russian and Turkish diplomats are in close communication with one another about their countries’ position regarding the rapidly changing developments of the Nagorno-Karabakh Continuation War. Neither has any intention to fight the other
    5. Trying to grasp at the straw: “Armenia Is On The Front Lines Of The Clash Of Civilizations”.
    It’s also a dangerous portrayal of events intended as a last-ditch desperate attempt

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/armenia-five-phase-infowar-strategy-against-azerbaijan/5725754

    6 After the 2016 escalation, Russia brokered a truce with an assurance to return to Azerbaijan some territory occupied by ethnic Armenians in the 1990s fighting, but that never happened.”https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/world/europe/armenia-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh.html

    7 Armenia, too, has selective memories of the past, with Mr. Pashinyan dismissing the worst atrocity of the 1991-1994 Karabakh war — the 1992 killing of hundreds of Azerbaijani civilians by Armenian fighters near the town of Khojaly — as a “pure propaganda trick.”https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/04/world/europe/armenia-nagorno-karabakh-trump.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

    • Replies: @A.R.
    , @LG
    , @Avery
  66. Avery says:
    @Cato

    {….and those who replied to him are all part of the same Los Angeles Armenian Orthodox congregation}

    I can’t speak for others, but I certainly am Armenian Apostolic Church Christian from Los Angeles area.

    {….. that makes it its mission to control the narrative about Turkey and Armenia.}

    Again, can’t speak for others, but I do make it my mission to counter the lies and disinformation spread by nomad, Genocidal Turks and their shills. Any place on the web I encounter it. And I enjoy it.

    And if I remember correctly from our previous “discussions”, you are one of those who makes it his/her mission to promulgate the Turk lies, distortions, and disinformation concerning Armenia, Armenians, Armenian Genocide,……..

    • Replies: @Cato
  67. Avery says:
    @J

    {About a third of Iran’s population is Azeri.}

    There is no such ethnos as, quote, ‘Azeri’.
    Those 1/3rd are Turkish speaking Iranians – i.e. Persian stock, not nomad Turk stock.
    The term ‘Azeri’ was invented by Stalin and his gang in the 30s.
    The goal was to one day to lay claim to Northern provinces of Iran, called Azarbaijan.

    The name of the fake country of Azerbaijan was similarly chosen for the same insidious purpose.

    The indigenous peoples of the country called Azerbaijan are the Talysh, Avars, Tats, Lezgins.
    The most populous group are the Talysh, if I am not mistaken.
    All those I listed are of Persian stock people.

    Turks in Azerbaijan are invaders from East and Central Asia (Uyguristan).
    Over centuries they subjugated, ethnically cleansed, forcibly Turkified the indigenous peoples.

    Interestingly, the Aliyev crime family is of Kurd stock, but they are Turkified filth.

    • Replies: @Blade
  68. Cato says:
    @Avery

    Turk lies, distortions, and disinformation

    We disagree about who is spreading the lies. Which, of course, could mean that we are both wrong. But I think not. It is interesting that the list of Armenian Holocaust Deniers on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Armenian_Genocide_deniers) includes the top scholars of the late Ottoman period, not fringe ethnic partisans.

    • Replies: @Blade
  69. Another tug at Russia –one day these deliberate tauntings are going to sting somebody—who should be at home tending to affairs in Baltimore—St Louis–Portland —Seattle —what goes around is now coming around?

  70. Blade says:
    @Mactoul

    Ask Kurds about it. There isn’t a single official, smoking gun evidence that Turks ever ordered killing of Armenians, who were still citizens of the empire. Quite the contrary, there are, hundreds and hundreds orders regarding providing protection to marching Armenians. There wasn’t enough soldiers protecting Armenians, and, along with Armenians small number of Ottoman guards were also getting killed by marauding Kurds who were seeking revenge but also loot.

  71. Blade says:
    @Avery

    You are right, these people were historically called Turks, in records and in literature. Shah Ismail, the creator of modern Iran was also a proto-Turkish nationalist, he literally talks of doom of Persians and disasters of Arabs when Turks land on them in his great poems. His followers were Qizilbash Turks, and he always appointed them in most important positions. This is the historical reality, the rest is butthurt Persian nationalists trying to pretend Turks haven’t ruled them for 1000 years.

    • Replies: @Robjil
  72. Blade says:
    @Cato

    To these people, it doesn’t matter. If Jesus returned to the world and proclaimed that the genocide didn’t happen Armenians would swiftly convert to Islam. It is a matter of faith, and nothing else. Add in the toxic Middle Eastern culture that they carry in their cultural veins, and you have people who will never shut up about their imagined history even after 1000 years.

  73. A.R. says:
    @Majority of One

    Well, my ethnic roots are the same as yours. I am Norwegian.
    As for any affiliation with the so-called Abrahamic religions they are non-existing.
    I might have misread you, and perhaps pulled the trigger a bit quickly. For what its worth I apologize for that.

  74. A.R. says:
    @barr

    Indeed. Not too many interested in this side of the story unfortunately.

  75. Blade says:
    @Alfred

    In your dreams. If Greeks didn’t attempt to ethnically cleanse and expel Turks from the island, this wouldn’t have happened. Then again, it was Greek Cypriots who rejected the UN resolution for unification when Cypriot Turks voted yes. Had Greeks voted yes this would be resolved over a decade ago. If EU wasn’t such hypocrites they would not allow GC in the EU, a decision that goes against their own rules. At this point, only solution is accepting independent NC and stop isolation. Greeks after all, has voted “NO” to unification that UN drafted. The end of story.

  76. @Дима Трамп

    The Turks will have to pay a heavy price for that genocide…someday!

  77. LG says:

    This Mr. C sounds like an imbecile.

    Armenia did not ask for CSTO protection, it said it can handle the conflict itself, and I am referring to the July fighting when Armenia proper was attacked. Moreover, Russia supplied Armenia with new arms right after the fighting. And this time around, Russia also passed along the azerbaijani battle plans to the Armenian side because there was a Russian agent within the azerbaijani general staff.
    Armenia never made threats against the pipelines, it had said that they would be targets should azerbaijan escalate the war. And the azerbaijani comment on the Metsamor NPP is sad but funny because even if they successfully hit the plant the fall out would affect the entire region, turkey especially.

    And Armenia, unlike the 2 other Caucasian states, was transparent about covid-19 hence why we showed higher numbers. The banana republic of georigia hid the real figures of their infection rate and mortality. While azerbaijan of course did the same because the dictator aliyev is not popular to begin with. Last thing the regime in baku wants is for its subjects to have yet another reason to hate them.

    I now see a pattern of people commenting on this issue. The slob the saker wrote an asinine piece the other day, and Karlin seems to be fumbling about to explain the conflict to his iq worshipping myopic crowd.

  78. LG says:
    @barr

    The author of that article andrew korybko is a literal agent of baku. He has flown to baku along with Peter tase to get better acquainted with his employers. Taking his articles at face value without knowing who pays him is a big mistake.

    • Replies: @barr
  79. Robjil says:
    @Blade

    Turkey and Azeris are Turkified peoples. Their ancestors are hated as “enemies”. Constantinople is not honored even though a lot Turks ancestors were Byzantines. This is very odd. There is not one country in the world that hates its ancestors like the Azeris and Turks. Mexico City honors it Native Americans ancestors. Why can’t Turks and Azeris honor their ancestors? Turkey is a huge area that has been totally Turkified. Kurds, who are Muslims, are trying to keep their culture from this mania for Turkification. The other non-Muslims were killed off or driven away a hundred years ago.

    Here is an example of this fear of ancestors in Turkey,

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-race-armenian-recep-tayyip-erdogan-generlogy-family-trees-ethnicity-a8234346.html

    For the stunned reaction of Turks to the sudden and unexpected opening of population registers on an online genealogy database three weeks ago was so immediate and so vast that the system crashed within hours. Rather a lot of Turks, it turned out, were actually Armenians – or part-Armenians – or even partly Greek or Jewish. And across the mountains of eastern Anatolia – and around the cities of Istanbul, Izmir, Erzurum, Van and Gaziantep and along the haunted death convoy routes to Syria, ancient ghosts climbed out of century-old graves to reassert their Armenian presence in Turkish history. For the registry proved that many of them – through their families – were still alive.

    • Replies: @Blade
  80. @Yukon Jack

    The Yinon plan. I had no idea what was happening with this war, but today I watched an English program on an Azerbaijan channel which was showing the greatness of the Turkish, Azerbaijan alliance. I don’t trust Erdogan so I went online to read this article which I knew was here but hadn’t yet read. I think Pepe Escobar is a wonderful author. But this time a I was perplexed by what was being outlined. So, on to the commentary and lo and behold the commenters have come through. Once I saw the connections of Israel, Netanyahoo and the Joo community I understood what was happening. Seems the only way to rid ourselves of that menace is to bomb it out of existence.

    • Replies: @Yukon Jack
  81. Blade says:
    @Robjil

    Typical Turcophobic claims. Same people who claim Turks are Turkified Greeks/Persians/Armenians/Slavs (insert whichever butthurt nationalist from these nations is making claims) will also claim Turks are Mongolians and should go back to Mongolia. On the same vein, they will claim Turks were a backward nomadic people yet somehow insist they assimilated far more advanced urban civilizations with far lesser numbers, compounding the idiocy of their arguments.

    Meanwhile history and records deny all their arguments. Black Death, and wars against Persians and then Arabs had significantly reduced population of Anatolians. Which is why Turks rather easily conquered the land and over time became majority. Turkic migrations wasn’t some overnight event, it was something that lasted centuries all the way until 16th century, with millions of Turks pouring in to Anatolia during Mongol expansion. There are no examples in history where a small minority of nomads come in and assimilate the more numerous urban populations, none, zero. In line with this fact, actually, Turkic nomads were assimilated in everywhere they migrated and didn’t consist majority, despite being ruling class. It is the case in Hungary, Bulgaria, India or Egypt.

    Regarding Kurds, they have little to show for a separate culture, go ahead and explain exactly what unique culture they are trying to protect from Turkification? Their culture is almost identical to their Turkish neighbors, save for language, pretty much all their customs are the same. You have ZERO knowledge about the topic and just talking based on little you read on internet blogs and news.

    Finally:

    For the stunned reaction of Turks to the sudden and unexpected opening of population registers on an online genealogy database three weeks ago was so immediate and so vast that the system crashed within hours. Rather a lot of Turks, it turned out, were actually Armenians – or part-Armenians – or even partly Greek or Jewish.

    People were curious and checked their ancestry records, if the US gave the same service for free it would be busy too. Then from there it jumps to a hyperbole and says “a lot of Turks” what is a lot? 100? 1000? 1 million? In a country of 85 millions of course there will be some who have some other ancestries. As far as I am aware of, this service was just popular, people’s curiosity waned and it had almost no change in Turkey. What are you getting at? I guarantee you that you would find more Russians or Greeks or Iranians of Turkic ancestry in their respective countries than the other way around. Recorded history says so, yet you will never hear people making such claims about these people. I guess fear of Turks just run too deep, acting like kids, closing their eyes to reality and pretend that Turks don’t exist is the only way these people can cope with the facts.

    PS: Again you have zero ideas. Constantinople was far from its glory days when Turks conquered it, including the Turkish quarter, the population of the city was probably around 30K, only a few thousands people were defending the city for this reason.

    • Replies: @Robjil
    , @Talha
  82. Robjil says:
    @Blade

    Constantinople was a great city in the past. Egyptians honor their past. Why can’t Turks do the same. It does not matter if during the conquest that it had a smaller population than it had in the height of its greatness. One should honor one’s ancestors.

    https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/08/24/turkish-born-professor-many-turks-believe-the-bizarre-narrative-that-theyre-descended-from-central-asia/

    It is estimated that millions in Turkey today are Turkfied Greeks, Armenians and other Anatolian people who were Islamified and Turkified by the ruling Turkish elite. For this reason, Turkish citizens in their thousands are returning to their Greek, Armenian and Anatolian roots.

    “On Chora and its conversion to a mosque, beyond the technical issues about preservation, a point I have been insistently making on the creation of the modern Turkish identity and the narrative that feeds it have to be taken into consideration. This narrative prevents Turkish people from being able to identify fully with the lands they live on, and promotes a “conquest” mentality that excludes everything that existed there before the arrival of the Seljuks,” said Dr. Çorlu.

    • Replies: @Blade
  83. Talha says:
    @Blade

    Their culture is almost identical to their Turkish neighbors, save for language, pretty much all their customs are the same.

    Two things I can think of is;
    1. Kurds are still tribal and the large tribes are still very much part of their identity (not so much with Turks):
    https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes
    2. Kurds mostly follow the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence whereas most Turks follow the Hanafi school

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Blade
  84. Blade says:
    @Talha

    1. Kurds are less clannish than the past. Also Turks were clannish as well, until 19th century in Anatolia there were large Turkmen tribes. Ottomans forcibly settled them, and had battles. Kurds were left alone because they were even farther and also Sunni whereas many Turks were Alevis.

    2. Religious differences aren’t really important. Many of them are also Hanafi, the biggest difference is that they are more conservative on average.

    As far as customs go, they are either identical to Turks or just adopted archaic Turkish customs that Turks no longer remember. There is almost nothing “Iranian” about Kurds in Turkey other than the language.

    • Replies: @Talha
  85. Blade says:
    @Robjil

    First of all, that site you use is like the most nonsensical newspaper you could find. Funded by anti-Turkey countries, it is a Greek far right newspaper. Secondly, we sent unquestionably Turkish 100K+ people to Greece because the population exchange was based on religion, hence Orthodox Turks were pushed to Greece but you don’t hear that much eh? No one cares about whether a former church is a museum or mosque, however, why should Turks honor defeated people? Is there a single former Ottoman subject that honors Ottomans, except for Turks? Killers shouldn’t shun others for killing, and thieves for stealing. Hundreds upon hundreds former Ottoman mosques have either been razed, converted to cinemas, theaters and whatnot in Balkans, Greece. Why should Turks honor ancestors of people who have no respect for Turkish monuments in their country?

    • Replies: @Robjil
  86. Robjil says:
    @Blade

    This is a study of the DNA of Turks. Turkish was an imposed language of an elite. English has a similar history in England.

    https://evolutionistx.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/turkey-not-very-turkic-a-genetic-history-of-the-turkic-peoples/

    The English example reminds us of another difficulty in attempting to use linguistics to tell us something about groups and their histories: widely disparate groups can speak the same language. Not only are the English, despite speaking a “Germanic” language, only about 10% German by ancestry (more or less;) but the US has almost 40 million African Americans who all speak English and aren’t genetically English. Even though most people learn to talk by imitating their parents, people have picked up and promulgated many languages that weren’t their ancestors’.

    We have a similar situation with Turkey, where the majority of the population clearly speaks a Turkic language, but the genetics shows far more in common with their local Middle Eastern neighbors:

    Some more details from this article.
    ‘Since the first written Turkic we have comes from the middle of Mongolia, it is sensible that folks in Turkey, today, might have DNA that appears to have come from the region. However, they don’t have a lot of this DNA, suggesting that the overall number of migrants or conquerors, (Turkic or Mongolian or of some other Asian origin,) was relatively low compared to the rest of the population. Today’s Turks, therefore, are probably descended primarily from the ancient Anatolian population that was there before the Turks, Mongols, Indo-Iranians, or other folks showed up.’

  87. barr says:
    @LG

    Doesn’t matter .Everybody including you has their pet theory ,selective observations ,blind spots and partisanship. Until you can come up with a better documents and analysis , I will go with him .

    Armenia denies events which are as recent as 1994 . I am sure they have tried to obliterate their contribution to the “Armenian Genocide” from the civil wars, engaging into treacherous and treasonous behaviors and deep sympathy for the invading Russian.

    Long ago,Armenia had a golden opportunity of returning the occupied part of Azerbaijan and keeping N-K proper . It did not .

    It reneged on the promises it made in recent years . Let them start over again with attitude of pragmatism justice and compromise.

    • Replies: @LG
  88. Blade says:

    Turkish was an imposed language of an elite.

    Turkish was never imposed on anyone. If we did no one East of Austria would talk their languages nor would other languages South of Turkey would last. Moreover neither Armenians nor Greeks would remain on Anatolian heartland.

    Since the first written Turkic we have comes from the middle of Mongolia, it is sensible that folks in Turkey, today, might have DNA that appears to have come from the region.

    Here we go with non-sensical, non-historical and often half educated DNA experts. First of all, there is no way to know how DNAs of these people were, Turkic people were nomads meaning that, they could move en masse from one region to other. Modern day Russia was essentially a nomadic route between Asia and Europe. Turks, and related groups have always moved back and forth between these two continents throughout the history. Meaning, not everyone in Asia were Mongoloid and not everyone in Europe were Caucasoid. There are dozens of records, where Chinese historians mention Turks with red hair and blue eyes. Pechenegs and Kumans are two Turkic tribes, known for being blonde and blue eyed (Russians called them Polovtsi -blonde-). These people know nothing, no history, no historical methodology and apparently no statistics as well, just look at one thing and claim they solved a mystery. Do they have population data from 500bc? No. DNA samples in meaningful numbers? No.

    Recorded history is there. I prefer believing in people who were there, at that time, not pinheads. Turks ruled Bulgaria as well, Bulgarians were a Turkic people. Why haven’t they assimilate Slavs around? Mamelukes, Tuluns were Turkic, why haven’t Egyptians start talking Turkish and became Turks? Safavids, Qajar, Seljuk are all Turks who ruled Iran why haven’t Persians become Turks? Why aren’t there any Turks in India despite centuries of rule? Any answers? You can find Turks only in areas where they migrated in large numbers, and eventually became majority. A relatively low number of Mongoloid nomads do no pop up from Asia and assimilate millions of urban people. Moreover, Turkic phenotype can still be observed even in areas as far as Uighur region, closer you get to Turkmenistan more people start to look like Anatolian Turks. And I am giving you numbers, capital of Byzantine Empire had 30K people in it, that is the capital. Meanwhile a single branch of Oghuz Turks had 70.000 tents which is close to 350K people. Have you heard of something called Black Death?

    Meanwhile recorded history tells that for example original Greeks died off long ago (epidemic and invaders), it is written in records -a fact-, told no one other than the emperor in Constantinople. Yet Greek researchers work today and find out that they have never changed. Sure buddy, keep it up. It appears you can find anything, that works for anyone depending on how you look at it in these DNA studies. Here is an idea, if they were to compare Turkic DNA with that of Japanese I am sure they could prove even better that Turks are Greeks lol.

    Come to me with historical data and arguments, not imaginary, half baked DNA studies that can never draw conclusions. There is no data about population demographics back then, claiming DNA studies prove anything is a farce.

    But let’s put all that aside. Let’s say all these morons are right. So then my question to morons is that, if that’s the case why don’t they stfu and leave Turks alone in their rightful homeland, that is, Anatolia?

  89. LG says:
    @barr

    If you like crap analysis be my guest. You are only deluding yourself.

    Armenia doesn’t deny anything. Armenia has existed for 4000 years, azerbaijan for less than 110. As the kids say these days, azerbaijan is ‘fake and gay.’

    • Replies: @barr
  90. @Ukraine Tiger

    Now you got it and it makes sense doesn’t it? Israel is actively involved with its proxies starting wars and causing mayhem all over the ME, all nations surrounding Israel are being infiltrated, bombed, nuked, genocided, and turned into bombed out shitholes.

    60 million people have had to flee their homes since 911, and now that same terror has come to Amerika as the Israel proxies BLM and antifa are burning down the West Coast.

    BLM is Amerikan ISIS
    Antifa is Amerikan ISIS.
    ISIS is Israel
    Antifa is an Israeli proxy army

    https://centralbankinginsanity.wordpress.com/2020/09/11/oregon-under-attack/

    https://centralbankinginsanity.wordpress.com/2020/09/15/arsonists-are-setting-many-of-the-wildfires-in-western-states-why/

    Syrian wheat fields are being burned while Trump steals their oil.

    Trump ordered US Forces to Burn Hectares of Wheat Field in Syria amid CoVID-19 Pandemic:Russia Media

    GAZA is literally hell, Syria and Iraq are bombed out shitholes,

    and who is the single one man organizing all of this hell on earth? Benjimin Netanyahu

    He is the antichrist and he owns Trump.

  91. Maybe they could trade land? Give up an exclave for N-K?

  92. Wielgus says:
    @GMC

    Did not really address what I was saying. If the Armenian government was the fruit of a colour revolution, as many assert, it would be getting a lot of overt backing. After all, Georgia did and Ukraine did. The Yank and EU are not rushing to Armenia’s aid, not even rhetorically. This does not fit in with colour revolution behaviour. In that, you do not get them backing both sides – typically the colour revolution gets backed very noisily and its opponents are portrayed as evil, backed by Putin, or both.

  93. barr says:
    @LG

    let Armenia be your guest . Its PM denied everything about the territorial expansion from , 1994 wars and ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Azerbaizani ,leveled against it on BBC . He also played dumb when asked about the UN resolutions asking it to vacate the areas including NK itself.

    Azerbaijan should retake by force if necessary the areas outside N-K but it should allow either independence or markedly elevated autonomy guaranteed by neighboring countries . Armenia or NK should compensate for the ethnic cleaning .

  94. Talha says:
    @Blade

    1. Kurds are less clannish than the past.

    Definitely true and true of most other tribal people as well, but tribes still do play a role, though less than before.

    large Turkmen tribes

    Yes, there are still plenty of Turkmen tribes operating in that region…those guys are a great deal closer to how Kurds get slong (as opposed to the urbanized Turks of Ankara and Istanbul).

    2. Religious differences aren’t really important.

    100% agree here – the various Orthodox Sunni schools (like the Hanafi and Shafi’i) have some differences for sure, but are marginal on a day to day basis – and everybody gets along and prays behind each other.

    Many of them are also Hanafi

    I don’t doubt this. I’m guessing you are talking about the guys in Turkey itself as opposed to the Kurds in Syria and Iraq, correct? Most of those guys are still Shafi’i (and frankly still produce some of the top Shafi’i scholars in the world).

    the biggest difference is that they are more conservative on average.

    Yes, good point. Though, again, if you take into account some of the Turkmen tribes in the region, those guys can be conservative as well.

    There is almost nothing “Iranian” about Kurds in Turkey other than the language.

    Yes, I would guess the Persian influence on them would be on par with the influence on Turks; not surprising really, Persia influenced everybody in that region, including the various people that conquered her.

    Couple of questions:
    1. I know there was a significant influx into Turkey of Bosnians and Albanians after the Ottoman Empire broke apart; are they basically mixed in with the population or tend to be a bit separate?
    2. Do you know if the same Sufi tariqahs operating in Turkey are operating among the Kurds? I’d imagine there is some overlap.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Blade
  95. Barr says:
    @Anonymous

    Stalin brought millions of ethnic Russians to Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan He kicked out the Tartar from Crimea and relocated them in desolate Siberia.

  96. Blade says:
    @Talha

    1. I know there was a significant influx into Turkey of Bosnians and Albanians after the Ottoman Empire broke apart; are they basically mixed in with the population or tend to be a bit separate?

    There wasn’t a significant influx of Bosnians or Albanians into Turkey after the Ottomans broke apart. Why would there be? Albanians and Bosnians both speak separate languages, they are separate people with their own countries. There were millions of Turks in Balkans at the time, over a million of them were genocided, most of the rest escaped. Sometimes they were called by the name of the nation they left from by the local Anatolian Turks. Only a minority were actual Albanians, Bosnians came after Bosna War. There is no separation today.

    Do you know if the same Sufi tariqahs operating in Turkey are operating among the Kurds? I’d imagine there is some overlap.

    Same as what?

    • Replies: @Robjil
  97. Robjil says:
    @Blade

    Blade,

    The Elites decide on the language.

    No Greek or Armenian Elites took up Islam, so no Islamic Greek or Armenian language was adopted in Islamic ruled areas of Asia Minor.

    Turkish Elites took 500 years to take over all of Asia Minor. In 1453, they took over the last place on Asia Minor being Constantinople.

    The Islamic Elites of Caucasian (race like African and Asian) Islam were Turkish, Persian and Arabic, thus these three languages often fused together. Ottoman Turkish was a fusion of the three.

    http://sites.nd.edu/sla2019/2019/07/27/the-similarity-between-the-ottoman-turkish-and-persian-languages/

    The Ottoman Turkish is a variety of Turkish language that was used in the Ottoman Empire between the 14th and 20th centuries. Although the language structure was indeed Turkish, it borrowed many loanwords, up to eighty-five per cent, especially from Arabic and Persian languages. The modern Turkish that is now spoken in Turkey was originated from “Vulgar Turkish” which was used by relatively unintelligent and less-educated people in the Ottoman Empire.

    • Replies: @Blade
  98. barr says:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/france-islam-crisis-macron-secular When Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Egypt and Palestine in 1798, his clever plan was to lie to the Egyptians by announcing that he and his army were “faithful Muslims” and that they came to liberate Muslims and Islam from the tyranny of the Mamluks.

    The invasion was launched in mid-June 1830 and Algiers fell on 5 July. The financially struggling France robbed Algiers’ treasury clean, stealing upwards of 43 million Francs in gold and silver, aside from the sums that disappeared and those that were spent on the French occupation army. The conquering French army took over mosques and converted them into churches and cathedrals at gunpoint The immediate goals of the invasion, as Charles enumerated them to the French national assembly on 2 March, were to avenge the French for the Algerian insult, “end piracy and reclaim Algeria for Christianity

    {Intellectual and respected } Alexis de Toqueville { declared murdering ,looting and raping were good } objected to the faint of heart who opposed French barbarism and their use of blitzkriegs (which they called “razzias”) against the Algerian population. “I have often heard men whom I respect, but with whom I do not agree, find it wrong that we burn harvests, that we empty silos, and finally that we seize unarmed men, women, and children. These, in my view, are regrettable necessities, but ones to which any people who want to wage war on the Arabs are obliged to submit. And, if I should speak my mind, these acts revolt me no more nor even as much as several others that the law of war obviously authorises and which take place in all the wars of Europe.” Joseph Massad Professor of Modern Arab Politics and Intellectual History at Columbia University in New York.

    France is trying to thwart Turkey in Mediterranean in Armenia and is also trying to liberate Islam . Ithas been trying to liberate muslim women in Syria for a while with the help of this very “ISIS “ who apparently Turkey has been sending to Azerbaijan.

    France has not liberated itself from the barbaric mindset of 1860. How does this political philosophy can even claim to have any moral ethical or legal grounding beyond the polemic offered by the thug like Alexis de Toqueville .

    It seems that neocon mindset is very much ingrained in the European understanding of the world . War is bad because it had hurt European -White-American interests .It would have been fine if it were done on the cheap limited to muslim blood and destruction of muslim countries like in E Timor or S Sudan or 1991 in Gulf war . Anytime those urchins try to claim the lands that belonged to them we are forced to listen to the cacophony of the stupid mishmash of the ethnicity , history ,or religious wars predating 1600 .

  99. @SZ

    When a group of people kill or drive out another group it’s usually not for the fun of it but rather due to necessities of survival, whatever evil that might require at that particular time depending on the particular circumstances.

    So when you are driven from your home and your family raped and slaughtered in front of you by “another group” you’re going to be understanding and say “hey I get it man, the necessities of survival are a bitch, I’d do the same in your shoes” before they cut your throat and throw you in a ditch to bleed out?

    You are a fool.

  100. “Erdogan is no one’s favorite guy.”
    Except for the islamophilic traitors in the EU who are constantly groveling before him, that is. Merkel in particular behaves like a servant girl towards Erdogan and would probably send soldiers to support him, if Germany still had any.

  101. Blade says:
    @Robjil

    Alright, you just denied your own argument. If the fact that Greeks and Armenians haven’t adopted protected them from being assimilated, then they cannot be ancestors of Turks. You just confirmed what I have been saying all along.

  102. Avery says:
    @barr

    Replies by #

    #1 UNSC resolutions are dime a dozen. All those UNSC resolutions re Nagorno-Karabagh in 1993 were rendered null and void when President Heydar Alieyev signed a Ceasefire with the leaders of Nagorno-Karabagh in May 1994. Co-signed by RoA. btw: KGB Colonel Heydar Aliyev begged Moscow in May 1994 to pressure Armenians to stop their advance towards who knows how deep into Turkbaijani occupied lands. (Azerbaijan military had completely collapsed by that time)

    btw: why don’t you Turks list the dozens of UNSC resolutions against Turkey for invading Cyprus, occupying 40% of it 40 years on, and completely ethnically cleansing its indigenous Greek-Cypriot population.

    #2 “Legal” by whose definition? When was the last time Turks/Azerbaijanis did anything legal.

    #3 No they are not: you have no clue about what’s going on in Armenia or Artsakh, so are lying and making things up like a standard-issue Turkbaijani™.

    #4 Yep: Russia has no plans to fight Turkey. But Russians never let on what they are planning to do.

    #5 Andrew Korybko is an American globalist anti-Armenian shill for Turks. The title of his article betrays his loyalties.

    #6 {an assurance to return to Azerbaijan some territory occupied by ethnic Armenians}. No such assurance could have been given. You have no way of knowing what was discussed and agreed to between President Putin, President Sargsyan, and Dictator for Life Aliyev-oglu.

    Plus, it is not possible for the indigenous people of Artsakh to supposedly be occupying somebody else’s land. Turk invaders and squatters were occupying historic Armenian lands and were thrown out after miserably failing to commit a Genocide against Armenians of Artsakh. And it was Aliyev-oglu who asked Moscow to intervene and force a ceasefire. It’s all on record: Aliyev announced a cease-fire first; his blitzkrieg had failed miserably, and Armenians were preparing a massive counterattack.

    #7 Armenia does not have selective memory. Former President Serzh Sargsyan has publicly acknowledged the peripheral role of Armenian military units in the Khojaly tragedy. The Azerbaijani manufactured narrative about Khojaly tragedy has been thoroughly debunked. Former Azerbaijan President Mutalibov is on record stating that his political enemies setup the people of Khojaly.

    Khojali was a tragedy during a brutal war started/launched by Azerbaijan. Let’s see Turkbaijanis™ acknowledge the murder of 100s of (Soviet) Armenian civilians in Sumagait (1988), Kirovabad (1988), and Baku (1990) at the hands of Turkbaijani savages. During peacetime, not war. Nomad savages.

    • Replies: @Blade
    , @Barr
  103. Blade says:
    @Avery

    If you weren’t so full of hatred maybe you could see that this is actually good for Armenians in Armenia. You diaspora members are nothing but a disease for actual Armenians living there. There are already 100K Armenians working in Turkey, if this issue is resolved Turkey can open its borders thus help Armenia increase its living standards. Which by the way, is very low, and diaspora Armenians do nothing about it. They just like to bark at Turks but do nothing for real Armenians suffering unnecessarily for diaspora’s selfish politics.

  104. hrc77 says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    quote ” How is it that Turkey was allowed to keep part of Europe after WWI when they were losers? ”

    Because the anglo powers always saw Turkey as a major asset against Russia.. this goes back even to the times of british empire.. during the russian empire times.. when ottoman empire was conquering southern europe and balkans.. an alliance of christian nations lead by Russia kicked the turks from europe.. and this happened through the entire history of russia.. britain and france aligned with turks against russia , orthodox russia ,since peter the great times ,saw islam and ottomans as a menace for them ,russia always dreamed with liberating constantinople and they nearly could do it when liberated bulgaria from ottoman occupation… but britain threatened russia with war if they invade turkey and capture istambul/constantinople city.. britsh even had forces there to stop russians advance ,so russia prefer to not start a bigger war,, and they did not invaded.. So this is why Anglopowers ,always used turkey as a spear against russia.. as long turkey exist.. they can control the gate of the black sea and blockade russia in case of a major war with nato and now they trying to block russia too in the caspian sea ,from easy access to iran.. because if nato US/israel allowed deploys military bases in azerbaijan and in turkmeninstan.. they can effectively break the supply line of iran.. in case of war . russia will have to fight all the muslims in central asia ,turkey , so this is what nato wants.. to completely encircle russia on its own borders.. with nato bases.. if russia allows turkey to setup bases in azerbaijan ,next ones will be in turkmenistan in the opposite side of caspian sea ,and eventually with some color revolutions magic ,get very hostile governments in control of every nation to the southern borders.. all the way to china borders.. they also plan to influence tatar turks in russia federation into demand its independence .. so eventually nato plans is to restart the ottoman empire ,but this time armed with nato weapons and encourage it to fight against russia. naturally such plans are doomed to work.because any muslim terrorist alliance in central asia ,in the so called anistan countries , will be facing not the less that the 2 most powerful armies in the world in a ground war. Russia and china.. and the muslims in central asia are not so numerous.. so russia and china can easily overrun the planes of central asia and stop the ottoman nato empire again.

    • Replies: @KA
  105. Tulan says:
    @Majority of One

    Well said.. And true! Thank You!

  106. KA says:
    @hrc77

    May be intelligent people don’t think about religion for political exercises unless it has a productive constructive role.

    Turkey could have let Catholic and Protestants finish off each other . Instead it offered most crucial help to certain countries and saved the ass of the emerging non catholic states including of UK . Turkey’s role against Spanish Armada remains one of the many reasons for success go Britain .
    Turkey allowed Britain passage and allowed diplomatic cover for trade Africa ,to Asia and Arab .

    Russia’s dream of occupying Constantinople would have never even appeared in it’s wet religiously addled brain if Britain didn’t get into the poisonous scheme of invading Turkey . Germany and Turkey could have finished Russia for any mischievous thought process let alone any attack.

    • Replies: @anon
  107. anon[212] • Disclaimer says:
    @KA

    Russian desire to be crowned as the unrivaled new Knights of Europe was seized by Armenian inhabitants of Ottoman as the best opportunity to bring back Christianity of certain type to S Europe and Mediterranean . They also convinced themselves they would serve the same upper crust roles political- financial under Russian suzerainty as they had done under the imperial Ottoman but macho Christianity .

  108. Anonymous[192] • Disclaimer says:

    See this article titled “Turkey sends ISIS commander, Syrian rebels to aid Azerbaijan in Armenia conflict”:

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/turkey-sends-isis-commander-syrian-rebels-to-azerbaijan.html

    There are hundreds of articles out there that confirm jihadis in Azerbaijan are fighting against Christian Armenia.

    If anyone wants to be on the side of ISIS and the other anti-Christian jihadists in Azerbaijan, that’s your problem.

    • Replies: @anon
  109. The “Limits” of Chinese power? We should be discussing the vast influence of Chinese power–to wit, total control of our medicines, control of our sports and entertainment,(thanks Le Bron, etc.) influence in our anti-white movies, paying off our “representatives”….ONCE WE GET THIS STUFF UNDER CONTROL, IF IT’S NOT ALREADY TOO LATE, WE CAN WORRY ABOUT THE “LIMITS” OF CHINESE POWER. It is OUR task to “limit’ it. President Trump is the answer, as should be blindingly obvious.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  110. anon[226] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    That’s a Christian propaganda . Why do they need ISIS when Azerbaijan has enough manpower to defeat Armenia and the religious mercenaries from Greece and Serbia?

  111. @Dr. Charles. Fhandrich.

    Why is Dr.Charles.Fhandrich thanking himself?

  112. Raffael says:

    Dear Pepe,

    Ever since your 9-11 forecast I have been following your postings. Some of your pieces are strategy / geopolitics related and others more artistic.

    What’s at Stake in the Armenia-Azerbaijan Chessboard piece is one of your poorest. Your facts are unconfirmed and lacking in debt research… as for Mr. C is acting like someone living on a different continent. One very very far.

    Pepe you always followed and have an interest in the China’s Belt and Road Initiative therefore know very well Armenia and Artsakh are included in those plans. Your limited outlook about this war confirms where you are unable to connect the south Caucasus to the BRI. When you truly believe Russia, Iran and China will allow such a crossroad as the south Caucasus to be controlled by others or allow oil to flow to Turkey & Europe, makes me believe you’ve lost contact with the reality.

    This war will result in Russia neutralizing the ambitions of Azerbaijan, forcing Turkey to end some of it’s imperial progress, Armenia & Artsakh to be independent without loosing land, always being a threat to Azerbaijan… even re-negotiating terms of the Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits towards Russia’s advantage. Why else would Russia isolate Turkey in the Black, Mediterranean, Aegean sea and more.

    Pepe you should get your head back in the game…. or else simply cover the Himalayan beauty.

  113. @Дима Трамп

    #45

    Being some what of a history buff, I did read that the Greeks ethnically cleansed northern Greece of Turks and Greek Muslims and the sea faring Greek Muslim Merchants of Crete had to flee to Cyrenaica. Bulgarian independence was also not so nice to the Turkic Muslims around the Black Sea. Salonika was Turk and Jewish in the majority before Greek independence.

    Somebody commented on Smyrna, the burning. Recall that the League of Nations handed it to the Greeks (not a majority) but the controlling commercial class after the first war and they immediately began to put down the Turkish inhabitants.

    What is sad is that the Med Basin has always been cosmopolitan and a mixture of ethnicities and religions that had little problem with another until the advent of European Nation State paradigm in the 18th century which was based on ethnic or religious homogeneity and bloodletting.

    Put aside what past empires they lived under, whether Roman, Byzantium, Arab or Ottoman. The Arab Muslims to the south were never keen on the Ottomans anymore than the Greeks to the north, but did not practice ethnic cleansing as far as the historical record shows.

    For the most part I find the comments posted on Ron Unz to be from myopic nationalists of all persuasions. Certainly it cannot be denied that the Young Turks were under control of the Oriental Masonic Lodge in Napoli and received material and armaments from Italy to vanquish the Greco-French invasion of Anatolia in the 1920’s. Yes the Turks obviously cleansed or expelled the Greco-Armenian inhabitants of Anatolia in this period, but very sadly it had worked both ways.

    It is best that humanity works to end both the rise of the Neo-Ottoman Sultanate and to end the bigoted and the paradigms of ethnically pure nation states around the Mediterranean Basin and return to a state system where all ethnic and religious groups are treated equally and fairly. irrespective of land borders. Of course Israel would be the first casualty in such a national reset, and of course can always exclude itself, based on its special status as God’s and the Banker’s Chosenites.

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