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The Pashtun Will Outlast All Empires, But Can They Hold Afghanistan's Center?
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Fiercely independent, the Pashtun have famously lived for centuries on "the margins of Great Empires," evolving into more sophisticated renditions, but never far from their roots. Photo Credit: The Cradle

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It was bound to happen: the remixed Saigon moment at Kabul airport and the stunning comeback of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, led by Pashtuns, has unleashed across the West a cheap Orientalization avalanche.

The whole of Afghanistan is now “threatened” by the return of the “barbarians.”

Once again, Afghan women need to be protected, all Afghans need to be rescued, “terrorists will rebuild” and Afghanistan may even need to be re-invaded for the sake of “civilization.” All because of those wild tribal Pashtun barbarians.

Imperialist pathologies never die. “Barbarian” yields from the Greek original barbaros – as in someone who could not speak Greek, or spoke it incorrectly.

When faced with the sophisticated Persians, the concept evolved. And then the Romans gave it the final contours, encompassing people who could not speak Greek or Latin; deployed militarily skills; were fierce or cruel to their enemies; and came from a non Graeco-Roman culture.

All this eventually coalesced into a toxic Western cultural construct deployed for centuries, the ultimate, pejorative denomination for a warrior-like Other: uncouth; uncivilized; rural, non-urban; prone to violence and cruelty; maybe not a total savage, but close.

As a contrast, Imperial China always referred to various Central Eurasian tribes and peoples as warring, civilized, urban, nomads, agrarian, but never as “barbarians.”

Pashtun Afghanistan is a much more sophisticated universe than the prevailing reductionism that evokes rural subsistence economy, mud-brick architecture, caravans of nomads, burqas and bearded men in sandals brandishing Kalashnikovs.

So as a tribute to the late, great Norwegian social anthropologist Fredrik Barth, let’s subvert Orientalism by taking an – Orientalist! – magic carpet ride to the twists and turns of the Pashtun world.

It’s all about Turko-Persia

Afghanistan may be approached as southern Central Asia; as western South Asia; or as eastern West Asia.

The fact remains that Afghanistan, historically, is a crucial node of Turko-Persia – as much in culture and language as in geography. Turko-Persia stretches east from Anatolia and the Zagros mountains, along the Iranian plateau, all the way to the Indian plains. This has been no less than the heartland of Persian empires.

Pashtuns have an immensely complex ethno-genesis. There are historians who identify Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan as far back as the Achaemenid empire in 500 BC.

Pashtuns may be descendants of the Hephtalites – which by the way are not the White Huns of Central Asia, as demonstrated by scholar Etienne da la Vaissiere. The Hephtalites defeated the Sassanid empire in the 5th century and occupied vast stretches of Bactria and Transoxiana.

But Pashtuns may also be descendants from the Sakas – nomadic Iranic peoples of the Eurasian steppe. And that, famously, would put them as descendants of the Sogdians and the Scythians.

Herodotus wrote that the Persians called the Scythians Saka, and later Oswald Szemerenyi in his 1980 classic Four Old Iranian Ethnic Names; Scythian-Skudra-Sogdian-Saka showed that Saka was the Persian name for all Scythians. An earlier form, Sakla, suggests historically the conquest of the entire steppe by Northern Iranians – literally Scythians.

What’s certain is that Pashtuns have multiple origins; after all they are a tribal confederation.

Pashtuns have a knack of linking multiple lineages (zai, in Pashto, as in “son of”) with tens of millions of people into a single genealogy, right to their, arguably mythic, common ancestor: Qais, a contemporary of Prophet Muhammad.

These lineages merge into larger clans (khel, in Pashto) and lead to tribal confederations, the most important of which are the Durranis, the Ghilzais and the Karlanri, which the British called Pathans. The Pathans are the indigenous inhabitants of the mountains that straddle what is now an artificial Afghanistan-Pakistan border; they only became Pashtuns much later, adopting their language and culture.

The 11th century capital of the Turkish Ghaznavids lay in what would later become territory held by the Ghilzai tribes. This intermingling is explainable because Afghanistan was always the eastern frontier of the Persian and then Turko-Mongol empires.

The large nomad tribal confederations emerged only in the early 13th century, in oases in the southwest Afghan desert, or congregating peasants in the eastern mountains. It’s an array of heterogeneous groups interlinked by a code and value system establishing their social relations: the Pashtunwali.

Pashtunwali rules

Pashtunwali has integrated quite a few elements of Muslim morals, but it’s in contradiction with sharia law in many aspects. French scholar X. de Planhol succinctly described it as “a set of rules that model the customs (adat), character (khoui) in relation to social exigence (raouadj), and thus define ethnic identity (khouyouna).” Pashtunwali regulates individual honor and also regulates a set of sanctions, with death prominently featured.

In the Pashtun world, everything must be decided by a jirga (assembly). They happen at every level – home, village, clan, tribe, whenever necessary. The number of participants varies from a dozen to thousands. I’ve been to a few. It’s a fascinating exercise in direct democracy.

There’s no “conductor.” Results don’t come by vote, but by a consensus that must naturally evolve once there’s no opposition to a decision. Elders are way more influential than youngsters. This is how the Taliban decided their new caretaker government.

As much as the Pashtun code is one of the most meticulous on the planet, Islam has brought to the fore quite a few moral issues, sometimes in contradiction with pashtunwali. To add to the complexity, there are juridical norms imposed by a hereditary nobility, coming from the Turko-Mongols.

Starting in the 11th century, Afghanistan received an influx of Turk nomads, preceding the 13th century Mongol conquests. At the time, virtually all of Bactria was Turkicized – except for the Pashtuns.


Balkh, the legendary capital of Bactria, which stunned Arab invaders described as “Mother of Cities,” the richest satrapy of the Persian empire, was the dominant city in the Afghan northern plains for millennia, located north of the Hindu Kush. Those waves of Turkish-speaking nomads were over-spilling from Turkestan, which included the khanates of Bukhara and Samarkand: they merged with the local Persian population, and Dari – which is Farsi (Persian) with a different accent – remained the predominant language.

Peshawar was a completely different story. Historically, Peshawar was closely connected to Kabul because it was its winter capital for centuries (Kabul was an Hindu kingdom well into the 11th century). Afghans lost Peshawar when it fell to the Sikhs in 1834; later it became part of the Raj when the Sikhs were defeated.

Peshawar is the Pashtun Mecca. Pashtun tribes living in the mountain valleys above Peshawar never in history answered to any government. For them there’s no border and ID papers: only their rifles.

A key Pashtun characteristic is that they have been living essentially at the margin of great empires. They evolved based on their own norms and had the freedom to build their own system of reference. And that explains why they are so independent.

Pashtuns identify two types of land: Yaghestan (“the land of rebels”) and Hokumat (“the land of government”). There may be serious internal social differentiations, but the whole Pashtun social body comes together when it’s a matter of facing external conditions. That explains the fierce fighting spirit against any foreign invader, be it British, Soviet or American.

So we’re talking about extraordinary social cohesion – with a coordinated reaction towards external events. No wonder Pashtuns believe the political structures they develop are superior. History has shown that once neighboring imperial structures started to weaken, Pashtuns ended up forging “their” state.

And don’t forget the Turko-Mongols

Between the 16th and the 17th centuries, Afghanistan was squeezed between three empires: the Uzbeks of lower Central Asia; the Mughals in India; and the Iranian Safavids. The Mughals and the Safavids were fighting for Herat and Kandahar. Pashtuns privileged the Safavids, even though they were Shia. Afghan territory, a natural extension of Iranian mountains and plateaus, facilitated Safavid influence.

This went on until in the early 18th century when Afghan tribes rebelled against declining Safavid power. An independent political entity around the Durrani tribe emerged in 1747, and Ahmad Shah was crowned King of the Afghans in Kandahar, via a loya jirga (grand assembly).

This first Afghan state south of the Hindu Kush was quite homogeneous. The structure was basically Turko-Persian, in fact Turko-Mongolian, much more than based in Pashtun tribal tradition.

Since the late 10th century, every major empire from the borders of northern India to trans-Oxiana, Iran and Anatolia was founded by Turks or Mongols. Some would last centuries – like the Ottoman Turks. Afghanistan was in fact ruled by Turko-Mongols for no less than 750 years, until the Pashtuns formed a state in the mid-18th century.

Yet an Afghan state was definitively established only after the Great Game between the Russian and British empires. That was Afghanistan in the late 19th century configured as a buffer state between Russian Central Asia and the Raj. The Brits needed it to block the road to India and the sea of Oman to the Russians, who were getting ever closer after they set a protectorate in Bukhara in 1873.

Drawing up the Russo-Afghan and Sino-Afghan borders was not a problem. The real issue was the border with the Raj along the 1893 Durand line, dividing the territory of numerous Pashtun tribes just so imperial Britain could control the main access points to the Indian subcontinent, the Khyber pass and the Quetta corridor. The Durand line was only definitively drawn in 1921. It divides Pashtun lands in two – and was never, and will never, be recognized in Afghanistan as a real border.

So if we had the first Afghan state with a strong Pashtun majority, the second was a colonial invention bearing a complex ethnic mosaic. Before the 1979 Soviet incursion and the 1980s jihad, that accounted for 40% to 55% of Pashtuns, 35% to 45% to Persian-speaking ethnic groups, and 10% to 15% to Turkish-speaking ethnic groups. It hasn’t changed much since.

The creator of modern Afghanistan, “Iron Emir” Abd-ur-Rahman, actually “Pashtunized” northern Turkestan, transplanting sedentary Pashtun populations from the south from the Durrani and Ghilzai tribal confederations, and then encouraging nomads to migrate.

And that’s one of the reasons why the ethnic composition of Afghanistan is extremely tricky, especially in the west and in the north. Everyone is in perpetual movement – alliances included (the Taliban profited from it for their lightening fast surge before arriving in Kabul on 15 August).

What is immutable is that across a structurally unstable nation, Pashtuns consider themselves top of the heap – and the “owners” of the Afghan state. And yet their perpetual intra-ethnic strife always wins over communitarian solidarity. There’s always a huge clash between the Durrani – who in fact took over the state since the mid 18th century – and other Pashtun groups, especially the Ghilzai. The Ghilzais are more egalitarian in spirit and do not accept Durrani hegemony: they just consider them more manipulative.

Mullah Omar, for example, is Ghilzai. But former Afghan President Hamid Karzai is from Sadozai Durrani descent, an impeccable lineage, and later he inherited the leadership of the Popalzai sub-clan.

The Durrani elite supported Karzai in late 2001 because they identified him as their own return to power after the socialist PDPA, civil war and Taliban interregnum. Other tribes were deeply disorganized and could not agree on anything. The only other possible option would have been Massoud the Tajik, a true nationalist, and respected even by Pashtuns. But he had been assassinated on 9 September, 2001.

Down with the nation-state

Pashtuns have a natural aversion to the Westphalian notion of the nation-state. After all they see themselves as an empire within the empire. Centralized power usually tries to neutralize them by bribery built like a system of government (that was the modus operandi during the Karzai years).

Afghan political life, in practice, is set in motion by factions; sub-tribes; “Islamic coalitions” (what the Taliban de facto forged to come back to power); and regional groups, usually led by warlords since the 1980s jihad. Add to it religious conflict, with hegemonic Sunnism, the Shi’ism of the Hazaras and the Ismailism of the Pamiri Tajiks always clashing.

In Afghanistan, Islam is as much ideology (the 2004 constitution recognizes an Islamic Republic of Afghanistan) as religion. It’s the stepping stone of Afghan identity, Pashtun or not. Every tribal member adheres wholeheartedly to Islam, even when there are glaring differences between sharia and pashtunwali. Afghans as a whole may be defined as the quintessential Natural Born Muslims.

The “historic” 1990s Taliban – who now compose the majority of the interim government – are Pashtun tribals who speak Pashto and so affirm their identity, much more than emphasizing being member of a particular tribe. What is unshakeable for these men issued from rural conservatism is their suspicion of the city – especially Kabul and its modernists – and the Pashtun superiority complex in relation to other ethnic groups.


Even as the NATO-occupied Karzai years were a disaster, the Taliban were also in crisis and internal disarray most of the time. Their ideology could be accused of being more Pakistani than Afghan: after all the Taliban as a movement was born in Pakistani madrassas, and the leadership all these years was based in Balochistan.

Taliban 2.0 may suggest they are venturing beyond tribal identity, and the perennial Durrani-Ghilzai confrontation is being pushed to the background. But the bitter negotiations for the interim government seem to spell otherwise, opposing the Doha “moderates,” some of them Durrani, some Ghilzai, to the “warrior” Haqqanis, who are Karlanri.

In Afghanistan, prior to the latest, horrendous four decades of war, the center of the rural political order revolved around landowning khans. As a rule, they were allies of the state. But then, starting with the 1980s jihad, this old elite was smashed by young, self-made military commanders who rapidly built their own political bases. The new generation, who fought NATO on the ground, now also expects to have a future in the new Kabul arrangement. As far as state building goes, this will be extremely tricky to negotiate.

So the big question now is how the old Pashtun breed, having learned the lessons of their dismal governing experience in 1996-2001, will be able to circumvent the inherent weakness of every Afghan central government. The periphery tribal system is bound to remain very strong, with nearly autonomous territories controlled by warlords that are not tribal chiefs, but in fact competitors for regional power and sources of income that should be feeding the state coffers.

And here is the ultimate challenge for these Pashtun warriors; to forge an Islamic system where the center can hold. The dire alternative, to paraphrase Yeats, will be mere anarchy loosed upon the Afghan world.

(Republished from The Cradle by permission of author or representative)
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  1. laodan says: • Website

    Thanks Pepe for trying to untangle the complexities of the interactions between — traditional tribal confederations — and the institutions of Western Modernity that are being imposed on the Pashtuns (“Pashtuns have a natural aversion to the Westphalian notion of the nation-state”).

    You are the first author that I encounter who uses the terminology “tribal confederations” :

    ” Pashtuns have multiple origins; after all they are a tribal confederation.
    Pashtuns have a knack of linking multiple lineages (zai, in Pashto, as in “son of”) with tens of millions of people into a single genealogy, right to their, arguably mythic, common ancestor: Qais, a contemporary of Prophet Muhammad. These lineages merge into larger clans (khel, in Pashto) and lead to tribal confederations,…”

    There is no certainty about how tribal confederations emerged historically. To the best of our present materialistic knowledge approach the first tribal confederations started to appear in the wake of the extremely rapid warming at the tail-end of the Younger-Dryas some 11,700 years ago. If an optimal answer is impossible the most satisfactory one is given by animistic heuristics, or the tribal formation of knowledge, which indicates that tribal cultural unification started immediately after their emergence most probably during the Eemian interglacial period sometime between 130 and 120,000 years ago (warmer than today)…

    What is being observed in archeological studies is that neighboring tribes started to unify culturally; meaning that they started to share the same daily material culture (observed mostly in pottery but these pots were mostly an afterthought). The cultural unification operated at the deeper level of “the worldview shared by the men of knowledge with the individuals” (religious or other). Those interested by this process of tribal cultural unification that led to Tribal Confederations can check my presentation on that subject in Part 2 of my last book.

    I find most fascinating how diverse has been the geographic outcomes from this historical process of tribal animistic cultural unification :

    — in East-Asia tribal cultural unification shifted seamlessly into a process that culminated with the emergence of the first Chinese power societies. Those were in reality governed by the traditional tribal men of knowledge who continued to share their animist worldview to the subjects of their evolving power institutions… If the Chinese are a-religious it is because their uninterrupted sharing of animism+ (animism+ because animism received add-ons that actualized it to occurring changes in real life). Animism+ in China is called “Traditional Chinese Culture”.

    — in contrast to China in the TriContinentalArea animism was violently destroyed sometimes around 10,000 years ago and gradually replaced by religious worldviews that evolved into Monotheist religions that helped to ensure the institutional reproduction of the first empires some 5,000 years ago.

    — and from my understanding of your presentation the Pashtun tribes unified sometime in the early 13th century by sharing a common a code of conduct and a social value system : the Pashtunwali. Your description of the “jirga” appears a quite accurate description of the traditional tribal decision making at the unanimity fo all those who are participating in the assembly

    “They happen at every level – home, village, clan, tribe, whenever necessary. The number of participants varies from a dozen to thousands. I’ve been to a few. It’s a fascinating exercise in direct democracy”.

    You further write :

    “A key Pashtun characteristic is that they have been living essentially at the margin of great empires. They evolved based on their own norms and had the freedom to build their own system of reference. And that explains why they are so independent. … the ultimate challenge for these Pashtun warriors; to forge an Islamic system where the center can hold.”

    But but how and when did the Pashtun adopt Islam ?

  2. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    There was no Afghanistan, nor any “Pashtun” 200 years ago. The region has always been part of greater Iran NOT under control of “Turks” as you wrongly indicate! Even inhabitants of current Turkey or Azerbaijan are not “Turks”. (The term Turk is inapplicable especially within context of analyzing the greater Persianate region which stretches well into Europe and into China. This vast region was fundamentally shaped by the Iranian civilizational legacies of Mithraism and Zoroastrianism as well as the satrap form of governance that simultaneously provided both autonomy and centralization of empire. Khamenei speaks both Farsi and Azeri, and is a Moslem, does that make current Iran govt Turkic or Arab?! No. Because throughout history the region and its people have had invaders impose religious and linguistic influence but the region’s core genetic and civilizational identity has been absolutely Iranian – and for much longer than the documented seven thousand years.
    The “Stan” nations were all parts of greater Iran territory. Ostan is the Farsi word for “region” or “district”. The North Indian region was a fully Persianate region until British Invasion. Farsi was the language of the courts and many spoke it. But as in every region they targeted, the British invented and injected separatism and tribalism -feverishly pushing religious and tribal tensions and uprisings. It took decades but the British finally enticed the Durani tribe to rebel against central govt of Iran and the British swiftly declared the new state of Afghanistan less than 200 yrs ago. This new “nation” was to act as the destabilizing buffer between India, Iran and China.
    It is still used as such and that’s why western empires have always tried to occupy what they call Afghanistan. The primary reason has always been to keep these three civilizations from forming a power block. Creation of Pakistan (and all other new states) were accomplished with the same tools of divide and conquer and served the same purposes.

    Let’s take the word “Wali” as described by the website with the link above
    as – “After sensory signification and meaning, man moves on little by little to an abstract signification and meaning, and he then naturally uses the same words which he employed with the objects of nature and thus recruits them into his service.”
    In the same way, even today a scientist ” do not invent special words for their particular sciences, but rather they use words which have a current meaning in the ordinary language giving these words a particular meaning and signification which differ from the common meaning and signification.”
    And today Islam, even when there are glaring differences between sharia and pashtunwali. Afghans as a whole may be defined as the quintessential Natural Born Muslims.
    Pepe is not spot-on on this as they are riven by the Shia/Sunni divide.

    • Replies: @Rabbitnexus
  4. @Jila

    Yes your last paragraph sums it up… Though Pakistan and Bangladesh separating from India was inevitable. In fact the whole northeast of India would have remained independent if they could have. If Pakistan remained with India there would have been civil war.

    But yeah the Persian and Parthian Empires meant a lot to the region

  5. TKK says:

    “Stunning comeback”?

    How can the author be so naive? Or towing the Biden line?

    This is no victory for any sect of Islamic politicians. This was allowed to happen. Planned and executed. If there was even a skeleton crew of American forces, active and serious, in Kabul, none of this would have occurred.

    Was it a photo opp for Biden to state he ended “the war” for the 20 year anniversary of 9/11? Bagram AFB was surrendered, down to the graffiti being cleaned off the walls for the sensitive, business like Taliban/ISIS/Normal Tribal Leaders.

    85 Billion dollars worth of equipment and tech was left, but I doubt they can operate or maintain it long term.

    All of these moving disasters : the COVID authoritarian mandates, the fire hose of 3rd world immigrants into rural areas, the new spending bill which is more costly than WW2 & Vietnam Wars combined , the new growing inflation ( a sack of oranges is now $10) , the lack of affordable housing, the shut down of the Pipeline- we are left with the question:

    Is this just rotten incompetence and petty tyranny from an aging political huckster or is something far more sinister afoot, and Biden is just following orders from the Ominous They?

  6. Metropole says:

    It is theorized that Pashtuns are the remnants of some of the lost tribes of Israel. Pashtun folklore claims this. Ancient Jewish inscriptions have been found in Afghanistan. The origins of Pashtunwali is thought to be the Law of Moses.

    Here’s a Jewish scholar:

    What Everybody Should Know About the Pashtunwali and Torah

    Apart from Persian and Jewish, Afghans also have some Greek blood, having been part of the Greek empire left by Alexander, which lasted for hundreds of years.

    • Replies: @Jila
    , @Anon
  7. @Jila

    The “Stan” nations were all parts of greater Iran territory. Ostan is the Farsi word for “region” or “district”.

    Untrue. The original Stan nation is still around, after many vicissitudes. The Armenian name for their country is Hayastan ( Hay = Armenian, Hayer = Armenians ). It is the World’s oldest civilisation, with a written language going back to 2300 BC, well before Persia. Did the Persians borrow the term from the Armenians ? Quite possibly, but given its remoteness in time, we will never know for sure, unless some incontrovertible piece of evidence is unearthed.

    • Replies: @Jila
  8. Escher says:

    The author is being disingenuous when he says the Chinese never called foreigners “Barbarians”.
    They use fairly pejorative terms like “Gweilo” and “Ang Mo” to refer to whites for example.
    Similar derogatory terminology is used towards foreigners in other parts of the world.

    • Thanks: Weaver
    • Replies: @Osip
  9. gotmituns says:

    Well, the Afghans are of Aryan fighting stock, so I guess they can hold onto their nation. It’s interesting that after all these centuries, you can still see the Aryan gene pool in many of them.

  10. gotmituns says:

    If you look closely at the picture of that young woman, the man who gets/got her would have to be, in every respect, up to the word, “MAN.”

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
  11. @TKK

    “If there was even a skeleton crew of American forces, active and serious, in Kabul, none of this would have occurred.”

    That “skeleton crew” of Amerikastanis would have been an armed group of hostages at the mercy of their enemies, and even the Bidet regime recognised that.

    • Replies: @Badger Down
  12. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    The Iranian civilizational influence didn’t start with the western version you’ve been taught about “Persian” Empire. Persian is the Greek term given to the whole of the empire as they saw it from 2500 years ago. But Iranian people have been occupying and creating civilization in the vast areas stretching well into Europe and Caucuses, India, China, and as far as Japan.
    There was no Armenia when Iranian Mithraism was influencing early Greeks and Romans into shaping their belief systems. Iran is definitively the mother of all civilization. It’s legacy is kept from mainstream academia because it diminishes the Abrahamic version of history. Zionists in particular have fought tooth and nail to render historical records limited to Egypt etc.
    Iranian civilization is much older than Egypt. It was ahead of Egypt by 500 years, of India by 1,000 years, of China by 2,000 years, of Greece by 3,000 years, and of Rome by 4,000 years! According to Professor Arthur A. Pope, the famous Orientalist (A.H. Saidian, Iran: Land and the people, Tehran 2001 P. 358).
    (Today, from ongoing excavations, these dates are being pushed even further back. There are 30,000 year old pure Iranian sites with sophisticated cultural and architectural remains being discovered – yet, again, they are heavily fought and diluted by the Zionist order.)
    Professor Pope also believes that the world owes its greatest industrial developments to the Iranian Civilization! 
Another Orientalist, the French Professor Kalamar of the Sorbonne University of Paris believes that: “The Persian (aka Iranian) Civilization is the mother of all civilizations.”
    From Xenophon to Hegel to Will Durant to Stephen Frye … many true historians and thinkers know the importance and legacy of Iranian civilization.

  13. Mike Tre says:

    That girl was on the cover of a 1985 issue of National Geographic during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. She was found 17 years later in 2002 shortly after the US invaded and had a similar photo taken:

    She was believed to be 13 years old in the first photo, so about 30 in the second (she appears 20 years older that that). I’m not sure what you mean by “would have to be a man” but it seems like you’re correlating Western courtship with that of Afghani “courtship,” such as it is. She likely had little say in who it was that married her. But I read that she ended up having several kids shortly after the first photo was taken and was at one point arrested for trying to pass false credentials or something along those lines.

    But it’s not a coincidence that the author uses her photo to promote his theory of everlasting Pashtuns. Fred Reed does the same thing when he promotes the greatness of Mexicans by using a teen aged girl who clearly is descended from mostly Spanish stock and not Aztec/Mayan. It’s like using Vanessa Williams as a serious example of the beauty of negro women.

    • Replies: @Maddaugh
  14. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    This is yet another rendition of Supremacist Jews rewriting history for self aggrandizement purposes. They’ve done the same for so many groups of people – trying desperately to link their past to some non existent Jewish tribe. From the Kurds to the Chinese and Japan, the Jews have tried to replace Iranians with the word Jew. Cyrus the great and khashayar shah (who they attached to the mythical Esther) were both retroactively brought into the Jewish worshiping king ensemble. Khashayar supposedly killed 70,000 of his own fellow Iranians to please Esther whose claim was the Jews were persecuted by Iranians. Same story from eternity to today. But the truth is Cyrus never recognized any separate group known as Israelites or Jews. There’s not a single Persian or Greek record or inscription supporting Jewish claims. Nor did khashayar shah know any Esther. The story of Esther and Mordecai are copies of the myth Ishtar and Marduk. The Jewish celebration of Purim is based on pure myth. Yet every year they galvanize their entire population into hating Iranians!! It’s the most bizarre act of treachery.
    This unforgivable revision of Iranian history is a crime of immense proportions. It stands as the real source and cause of constant attacks against Iran, which by virtue of its historic legacy survives to reveal their lies to the whole world.

    • Agree: Badger Down
    • Thanks: Arthur MacBride
  15. In the centuries past the useless Afghans were raiding the Indian Subcontinent for their livelihood and after Britain departed, the Soviets subsidized for a time and since the 9/11 it was American taxpayers’ turn to feed the beggars/warriors/thugs and going forward it will be Pepe’s favorite people’s turn to be sucked into the farce known as the graveyard of empires. Good luck China!

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Maddaugh
  16. Maddaugh says:

    The Pashtun Will Outlast All Empires, But Can They Hold Afghanistan’s Center?

    This is like saying the stone axe will outlast all nuclear missiles !

    Afghanistan is a stupid little country still lost in the 7th century. Empires come and go but primitive cultures are either subject to their pressures or choose to live in isolation. Either way they cannot outlast the rest of the world. Ultimately they must either assimilate or be subjugated or live in a primitive state.

    It was said that when the Conquistadors entered the New World, the natives scorned gold and diamonds ie they traded them for cheap beads, cloth and steel axes. How long will Afghans ride donkeys, wear sandals, drink water and communicate with pigeons before they “discover” motorbikes, Gucci shoes, Coke and cell phones ? Oh I forgot they already have ! Hence it is just a matter of time before their culture is perverted and ultimately destroyed. Example : The past President has already fled with skid loads of cash and is living somewhere in the ME with his 25 wives. Who in their right mind believes he gives a hoot about surviving empires etc. Will this new crop of leaders be any different ?

    As such the whole title of this article is somewhat trite and obtuse. In any case who really cares about them outlasting anyone or holding the country together. In addition, Afganistan may cease to exist as they US welcomes every goat herd, DVD vendor and Kebab cook into the country. Whole villages and towns in the Kush will disappear !

    The culture today is what I call the Ali Baba syndrome. Everyone is looting, plundering, lying, murdering and outright thieving. Its a ME first, self preservation society and to think that any ruler or group of leaders is in this game due to saintly notions is to indulge in self delusion.

    The Chinese can have at them and Pepe can be sure his question will be answered in quick time. The Chinks will pervert and corrupt them in short order. No Afghan Mullah is going to live in Penury when he has millions stashed in a Hong Kong bank.

    If Afghanistan survives all empires it will be because they are useless and prefer to live 1300 years in the past. As to whether the country can be held together nobody cares, except China, that is, until they have bled the place dry.

    • Replies: @Weaver
  17. Maddaugh says:
    @A Half Naked Fakir

    Pepe has be snorting Pablo’s Powder. Now he has graduated to the heavier stuff harvested from an Afghan flower. Some of the bunk he writes can only come from the mind of a strung out junkie.

    • Agree: A Half Naked Fakir
  18. @Jila

    What year was the beginning of Iranian civilization?

    I understand that Iranian peoples have been around a long time, but when did Iranians form a civilization?

    Just for reference. Curious about the suppressed Iranian history. When and where was the first Iranian city-state, writing and irrigated agriculture? These would show the birth of civilization.

    It is somewhat hard to tell, since these other civilizations (China, India, Greece, Rome) don’t seem to line up with each other so well, chronologically.

    • Replies: @Jila
  19. Maddaugh says:
    @Mike Tre

    Agree ! In the second picture the poor woman looks haunted. I imagine if she is still alive she must look like a worn out old crone, dressed in rags and saddled with a dozen ragged kids. Her Daddy has probably already moved in young stuff LOL.

    I saw an interview of one Afghan woman who said when her husband wanted the good thing she HAD to give it up regardless otherwise she got a sound thrashing.

    Now in the US, a lot of Moslem women, realizing they have rights are dumping their husbands. However they created another set of problems being their family get pissed at them, no other Moslem man wants them, no white man will touch them and their multitude litter, they are generally shunned by one and all. From time to time their husbands slaughter them because they have dishonoured the family group. This kind of thing traumatizes the whole family group. American rights and values aside, it is difficult to change their religious beliefs and way of living. This also creates pressures on our systems. There are hardly any resources to deal with our native born nuts much less add hundreds of thousands of immigrants all arriving with their own issues.

    There is one Moslem woman, a single mother it seems, on my block who is quite beautiful but she is always alone with her 5 kids. Frequently we would see her in the park feeding the squirrels or ducks, many times just walking alone after hubby shows up to take the kids. We have never seen a single other family member come to visit her. I really dont know how she hold onto her sanity. In addition the neighbours give her a wide berth to avoid getting snagged into any potential family feud.

    I just cannot imagine what her life and mental state must be. So much for the everlasting Moslem beauties …………….and Pashtuns. Bringing in these everlasting people from the ME, Haiti etc is going to blow up in our face big time.

  20. Che Guava says:

    eastern frontier of the Persian and then Turko-Mongol empires

    A bizarre statement, both the Mongol and Turks had their centres much further to the east.

    Sure, in the case of the Seleucid empire, and the later Persia it would become, what is now Afghanistan was the eastern extremity.

  21. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    There are cities documented as old as 7,000 years, eg Damghan. But Jiroft region in Iran has been under excavation for decades and is proving to date back even 30,000 years.
    There are a lot of sources that can be studied but Zionist controlled governments have used every method including assassinations, ethno-religious and archeological sabotage, as well as all out invasion, Balkanization and wars to prevent and dilute Iran’s true legacy.

    • Replies: @Metropole
  22. Doris says:

    The Kay Griggs Interviews-1998-Satanism in the Military (Full Length)

    Griggs, in her videotaped interviews recently, discovered her husband’s
    diary and was suitably horrified at what she read.

  23. Weaver says:

    Partly why the West looks down on “barbarians” is due to Christianity. I dont have my books, but I doubt China was somehow more respectful to foreigners.

    The history of “barbarian” in a Euro pagan context given here is too simple. I’ve read Cicero for one thing, but a quick online search of Aristotle’s Politics brings up references to barbarians. He refers to their being undeveloped. He obviously sees the Egyptians as developed, though they dont speak Greek. He also mentions Persia as separate from barbarian. So, what’s written in this article is false.

    The author read some claim that “Europeans think this,” and it’s mostly false.

  24. @Jila

    I like to think of Afghanistan as beginning at the point where neighboring countries cannot impose order.
    What goes on and why at and beyond that point is well described here.
    Thanks Pepe

  25. Osip says:

    The Chinese had a very sophisticated traditional vocabulary for referring to barbarians.
    蛮夷戎狄 referred to all kinds of barbarians (戎 refers to ‘weapons/war’)
    蛮 = southern barbarians
    夷 = eastern barbarian tribes
    狄 = northern barbarian tribes
    蒙 = Mongols (with various negative meanings including 蒙昧 ‘barbaric/ignorant’)
    矮奴 (literally ‘short slave’) = Japanese and Ainu
    They still use all these words in various combinations.
    For example 野蛮 (‘wild southern barbarian’) is the standard modern Chinese word for ‘barbaric’.

    The words for ‘barbarian’ in Arabic (بربر) Persian (بربر) Turkish (barbar) Sanskrit (बर्बर) are basically the same as the English word, and the Arabic word refers particularly to the Moors (Barbary coast (بربري)) and is also the root of the ‘Berber’ ethnic group’s appellation.
    In fact, although Western linguists seem to think these words come from Greek (reflecting their own linguistic background), it seems just as likely that they all come from Sanskrit or (see below) from Babylonia.

    So, it does seem that the author strayed far from his field of expertise (not linguistics), perhaps seeking to make Westerners feel guilty for being so uniquely evil/divisive/racist in using the word ‘barbarian’.

    Every language of a civilization has words to describe non-civilized people. For example, the Thai word for barbaric ‘ป่าเถื่อน’ comes from ‘forest’ and ‘illicit’

    But the original meaning of ‘barbarian’ simply referred to people unable to speak a particular civilized language (Similar to the use of ‘gringo’, which supposedly refers to people with poor Spanish-speaking skill). Here is the explanation of that:

    [Onomatopoeic: from the perceived βαρ-βαρ (bar-bar) sounds incomprehensible to Ancient Greeks and spoken by foreigners. As an onomatopoeic construction, βαρ-βαρ is similar to modern English blah blah, but meaning gibberish, gabble; compare also babble from Proto-Indo-European *bʰa-bʰa-. Cognate to Sanskrit बर्बर (barbara, “barbarian, non-Aryan, stammering, blockhead”).

    Possibly related to Proto-Indo-European *balb-, *balbal- (“tongue-tied”). Compare with Latin balbus (“stammering, stuttering”), Russian болтать (boltatʹ, “to chatter, babble”), Lithuanian balbė́ti (“to talk, babble”), Sanskrit बल्बला (balbalā, “stammering”).

    For the semantic development, compare Arabic عَجَم‎ (ʿajam, “non-Arab; Persian”), from the root ع ج م‎ (ʿ-j-m), referring to people who speak unclearly.]

    So the main ‘insulting’ aspect of ‘barbarian’ is simply that it criticizes certain groups’ linguistic skills regarding a particular language, saying that they babble, they are babblers. Yada-yada. And it’s not accurate to call it a ‘Western’ concept.

    Interesting that the tower of Babel in Babylonia is supposedly “From Latin Babel, from Biblical Hebrew בָּבֶל‎ (bāḇel, “Babylon”), from Akkadian 𒆍𒀭𒊏𒆠 (bāb ili, “gate of God”), translation of Sumerian 𒅗𒀭 (KA.DINGIR); in Genesis associated with the idea of confusion.”
    And the tower of Babel was filled with people who sounded to each other as if they were babbling, perhaps because they enjoyed vibrant linguistic diversity.

    So while Babylonia may simply have meant “gate of God” (باب الله), it seems quite possible that the subsequent putatively onomatopoetic words for babble and barbarian used throughout the world stem from the name of that country and its tower.

    Calling ‘barbarian’ a “toxic Western cultural construct deployed for centuries, the ultimate, pejorative denomination for a warrior-like Other” is a strained and roundabout way to critique Western culture. It is also a typical leftist cultural construct.

    • Thanks: Escher
    • Replies: @Jila
  26. @Jila

    Your views are not backed by the facts. The 3 oldest existing civilisations are the Armenian ( oldest), Greek and Chinese, in that order. This is backed by the historical and archaeological record. You reference the views of one maverick American art historian, Arthur Upham Pope – whom you misquote as Arthur A Pope – to back up your views.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  27. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    In ancient times the word Habiru or Apiru was used to refer to barbarians or outsiders.

    In the non-Biblical literature of the Near East the habiru appear as landless individuals who live outside the established social order. They appear as mercenaries in texts from Babylon.

    David Astle covers this subject in his book Babylonian Woe. The proto-Hebrews went by the names Apiru and Habiru. They began as a class of wandering merchants and bandits, then evolved a system of crooked financial schemes for siphoning off wealth, interbred mostly among themselves creating a distinct ethnic identity, and ultimately evolved a “religion” as a facade to conceal their true identity and with which to give themselves legitimacy, and as a defence mechanism.

  28. Iran and Saudis.

    Weird things happening.

    Video Link

  29. voicum says:

    We know , we know the Iranians were there even before the Earth came in to existence…..

    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
  30. Metropole says:

    There are cities documented as old as 7,000 years, eg Damghan. But Jiroft region in Iran has been under excavation for decades and is proving to date back even 30,000 years.
    There are a lot of sources that can be studied but Zionist controlled governments have used every method including assassinations, ethno-religious and archeological sabotage, as well as all out invasion, Balkanization and wars to prevent and dilute Iran’s true legacy.

    I’m not sure how you can go so far back in history. The Aryans came to Iran from southern Russia around 3,500 years ago. That’s the origin of Indo-Aryan languages of Europe, Iran, India, etc., including Persian, Sanskrit and most European languages.

    Going back further in time will get you aboriginal people of Europe, Iran, India etc. They may have had some civilization and architecture, but not much has been found.

    However, ancient Egyptian DNA shows that they were from the Middle East, so you could theoretically claim ancient Egypt.

    • Replies: @Jila
    , @Weaver
  31. @voicum

    “we know the Iranians were there even before the Earth came in to existence…..”

    Hmm, that might explain this new development:

  32. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    Aryan means noble person. It’s not a race. But if referring to the whiter race, the Iranic people were not migrants from Russia either. They are a purely local people.

    There are Iranian scholars that have written about this but their books haven’t yet been translated into English eg Jahanshah Derakhshani

    But you may read this for some explanation of local population of Iranian plateaus:

    Also this article explains the relation between Iranic, European and Indians:
    Iranic People

    Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats
    By: Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, India
    Jat Jyoti, Vol.4 no.11 (Nov. 2003) p.13-18.
    (Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation, 248, Ram Krishna Vihar, 29, IP Extension, Delhi-110 092)

    Abstract: Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.

  33. Weaver says:

    Bhutan shall endure! (Already being crushed by modernity.)

    A Spartan like society could endure if able to defend itself, like North Korea. Pashtuns are more 4th gen warfare durable, but they’re weak to a foreign military willing to obliterate them or to mass immigration. We all have our survival strategies. They seem to be doing better than Brits currently.

    • Replies: @Badger Down
    , @Maddaugh
  34. @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    Skeleton crew, indeed! Where’s a US Canteen when you need one?

  35. Weaver says:

    Supposedly the Black Sea could have remnants. Maybe Ukraine? Origins couldn’t be too far north I wouldn’t think, if going to an ice age. Some claim Europeans are significantly separate from Africans and have lived in Europe for a long time, adapted. I don’t know the truth of that.

    It would be curious to learn where the Aryans are from. Some old settlements are preserved in Russia, but I dunno where “whites” lived over the years, dunno where we diverge from East Asians, for example. I’m really curious where Semites come from, where they separate from Sumerians. Whites tend to claim, to an extent, everyone who is Caucasian, but Semites claim to be their own group.

    • Replies: @CosmicMythos
  36. @Weaver

    Brits bravely fought two world wars and thought they had won, but they lost.
    “We must hate until we win!”

    • Replies: @Weaver
  37. Weaver says:
    @Badger Down

    Why do you believe Hitler attacked Stalin? Orwell believed Hitler wanted living space. Was Stalin preparing to attack? And yes, Britain shouldn’t have attacked in WWII. I’m curious about your thoughts.

  38. Anon[174] • Disclaimer says:

    “The Hotak dynasty (Pashto: د هوتکيانو ټولواکمني‎; Persian: سلسلهٔ هوتکیان‎) was an Afghan monarchy founded by Ghilji Pashtuns that briefly ruled portions of Iran and Afghanistan during the 1720s.[2][3] It was established in April 1709 by Mirwais Hotak, who led a successful revolution against the declining Persian Safavid empire in the region of Loy Kandahar (“Greater Kandahar”) in what is now southern Afghanistan.[2]”

    This is way before 200 years ago. And historical records of Pashtun related people go back way further than this.

    • Replies: @Jila
  39. Anon[174] • Disclaimer says:

    No Pashtun before 200 years ago??

    The Ghilzais and Abdalis(Durrani) tribes were already established and fighting each other 300 years ago when the Ghilzais took Isfahan

    “ In 1720, Mahmud and the Ghiljis defeated the rival ethnic Pashtun tribe of the Abdalis (now called the Durranis) However, Mahmud had designs on the Persian empire itself. He had already launched an expedition against Kerman in 1719 and in 1721 he besieged the city again. Failing in this attempt and in another siege on Yazd, in early 1722, Mahmud turned his attention to the shah’s capital Isfahan, after first defeating the Persians at the Battle of Gulnabad. Rather than biding his time within the city and resisting a siege in which the small Pashtun army was unlikely to succeed, Sultan Husayn marched out to meet Mahmud’s force at Golnabad. Here, on March 8, the Persian royal army was thoroughly routed and fled back to Isfahan in disarray. The shah was urged to escape to the provinces to raise more troops but he decided to remain in the capital which was now encircled by the Pashtuns. Mahmud’s siege of Isfahan lasted from March to October, 1722. Lacking artillery, he was forced to resort to a long blockade in the hope of starving the Persians into submission. Sultan Husayn’s command during the siege displayed his customary lack of decisiveness and the loyalty of his provincial governors wavered in the face of such incompetence. Starvation and disease finally forced Isfahan into submission (it is estimated that 80,000 of its inhabitants died during the siege). On October 23, Sultan Husayn abdicated and acknowledged Mahmud as the new shah of Persia.[5]”

  40. Anon[911] • Disclaimer says:

    There is no ” lost children of israel ” jewish narrative that can stand the corroborative force of genetics , archeology and linguistic no matter how much jewish wished to claim every single historical development asociating thenself with every etnic group to spiritually canibalize them , its factually false

    Its like masonry where jews coopted the entire history of europe without more proofs that that their feverish imagination , if any of you have read the andersen constitution you know full well what im talling about , for the rest masonry tell us how jews spread the arts and sciences to greece then to rome and finally to the rest of european countries making them the divine seed that planted the prosperity of the european civilization since the very begining , the founding myths of masonry is basically the secularization of the self procraimed chosenitism of jews this time presented as the creators and diffusers of arts and sciences. If you to search for any proofs you will be disapointed, the only argument jews made to apropiate the greek civilization is that the temple of salomon constructed 3000 years ago ( only referenced in their biblical scritures ) was more ancient that the greek construction by 500 years ,the only thing jews didnt know 300 years ago when they wrote that text is that greek architecture was inspitated by mycenian and minoan civilization that only hundred years later after the writting of the constitution of masonry began to be known thanks to the extensive archeological research .

  41. Maddaugh says:

    They seem to be doing better than Brits currently.

    Maybe ! From my perspective it seems that with all the b/s of modern living, living in a remote area with little connection to the “modern” world would be doing better. However one must experience the modern world before realizing that a simpler life may be best.

    In their case they have known nothing else but Afghanistan. While they may be doing better than the Brits they do not know this as they have no comparison. If the UK were to allow unfettered immigration to Afghanistan that country would empty.

    Hence they will not realize what they have lost until they lose it which will be too late. So the question as to whether they can survive can be answered and the answer is NO.

  42. @Weaver

    Here’s one broad-strokes theory of migration patterns in those really far of days. It may be wrong in parts, or may have gaps, and remember, it’s one version. There are many others.

    Have a map handy; here goes.

    At the tail end of the last Ice Age, the ancestors of the indo-europeans lived east of the Ural mountains. To their east were the ancestors of the sinic-mongolic-turkic peoples. This entire area may have had a loosely-connected culture at the time. I stress ancestors; these were not cultures nor ethnicities anyone would recognize.

    As the ice began to thaw, but way, way before civilization, the proto-indo-europeans had migrated west and south-west (over the Urals), onto the Russian and Ukrainian steppe. The proto-sinic peoples were still in Siberia (remember, this is thousands of years before any civilization).

    It was on the broad steppe west of the Urals that actual Indo-European culture developed, distinctive from their ancient culture in western Siberia. These were no longer “proto”. They were the Indo-Europeans proper. (Back in Siberia, the other tribes were developing distinctive features of what would become, what we moderns would call, “Asian” culture – that story is for another time).

    Fast forward millennia.

    Now we enter the era of recorded history. Around 2,000 to 1,500 BC, the Indo-Europeans began a mass-migration out of the western steppes onward into Europe, south into Iran and Anatolia, and south-east into India. There were already peoples in these regions. There followed the usual pattern of war, conquest, assimilation, inter-marriage and formation of new identities – ones we recognize: Greek, Italic, Nordic, Celtic, Slavic etc)

    An interesting story, from Scandinavian mythology, indicates that Indo-Europeans brought their gods with them, and were resisted fiercely by the earlier inhabitants of Scandinavia (which obviously wasn’t called that then). As things settled down, and truces were called, the story of the early struggle was remembered in myth as the war between the Vanir (indigenous gods) and the Aesir (gods of the outsiders).

    Weird echoes like this abound throughout all the lands into which the Indo-Europeans migrated.

    Hope this helps

  43. @Rev. Spooner

    Unfortunately and speaking as a Shia Muslim, that is quintessentially Muslim. Note I am not saying it is Islamic. The division is very real and very bitter. Often compared to the Catholic/Protestant breach it is far more fundamental and raw. It has been laid to rest most of our history but in modern times it has been revived with a vengeance thanks to the efforts of Col Lawrence the Rothschild front-man for the British SS. The Wahhabis and Saudi Arabia in particular being the vehicle. m On the whole though there’s not much trouble between Shias and Sunnis in this part of the world compared to the Arab. remove the rotten Salafist influence and it will fade quickly.

  44. Jila [AKA "Jilaa"] says:

    These are all tribal wars. All of these people are Iranic and have been shaped under the greater Iranian civilization. Just because Zionist controlled Wikipedia or academia says a group is Turk or Arab or Pashtun or Kurd …. doesn’t mean you should think they are non Iranian people. It’s the Zionist way of dissecting a large civilization into warring tribes.
    It’s like dividing an imaginary 7000 year old United States by the various states each of its presidents hailed from.
    Enough of this Zionist pseudo ethnic division.
    Each time anyone says Persian it doesn’t mean it’s exclusive of other Iranians. Persian is used locally as reference to the language but many foreign sources use it to create a supremacist image of Iranians or just divide and conquer the region. Stop buying into it. Look at what Israel is doing to the region just playing on people’s pseudo ethnic sentiments. Are residents of Turkey really genetically and culturally mongols? No, but they’ve been brainwashed as such by a hundred years of Zionist revisionism. They’ve been promised a Neo ottoman “Turkish” empire just to battle with Iran – the very civilization that is the heart of its history and culture – while Israel reaps the profits of war and conflict. So disgusting how people keep falling for Zionist separatism. Stupid rivalry in service to jingoist Israel. Bravo.
    کجا میرید اینطور شتابان ؟!! آخرش که چی؟ کی برندس بجز دشمن؟

  45. This is a great synopsis and it’s a delight to see a more nuanced picture being shown to Westerners. I’m married to the region and am thoroughly enthralled with its history and aspects of the culture. .

    The Pashtun have among them the most respected and trusted tribes such as the Pathan and they have by far the most support among ordinary Pakistanis and Afghanis in my experience. The Taliban by extension is highly thought of. I don’t have any doubt about their ability to govern successfully today, dependent upon how much interference they get from the usual suspects. So far that’s not looking good.

  46. Pash says:

    Seems like @Jilaa has a compulsive disorder to praise Iranian origins to the level of mythos. As much as dejection of zionist counter influences to the level of mythos. On the other hand the information supplied by Pepe Escobar smells the he has natural bias against reporting the truth because if he studied and knows so much about the central ethnic group it is an act of self censure not to report some of the most interesting discoveries he should have made. I have a question to ask – it is a well established fact that Afghani migrants are the most prolific rapists in the world. I always wondered which specific tribes or ethnic groups in particular to watch out for?

  47. @TKK

    Probably both, but we don’t know yet…..

    There is no Grand Single Conspiracy, but there are innumerable conspiracies, false flags, conspiracies as part of broader historical & civilizational processes..

    No conspiracy:


    * fall of Rome
    * Mongol expansion
    * European age of exploration
    * the Renaissance
    * the Enlightenment
    * Industrial revolution
    * formation of European monarchies, then, later, nation-states
    * early stages of formation of European Union

    On the other hand:

    * French Revolution- mostly non-conspiratorial with some conspiracy in various phases
    * Franco-Prussian war 1871- Bismarck’s conspiracy
    * war between states 1861-1865- no conspiracy
    * age of American Imperialism- conspiracy
    * mass import of cheap labor, Ellis Island- partly a conspiracy by Carnegie, Rockefeller etc.
    * US entries into WW1 & and WW2- elements of conspiracy
    * Russian revolution in 1905- no conspiracy
    * Russian revolution in February 1917- a few elements of a conspiracy
    * Russian revolution in October 1917- conspiracy
    * Nazi rise to power 1933- mostly, no conspiracy
    * JFK assassination- conspiracy
    * fall of communism & disintegration of USSR in 1990s- no conspiracy, but later elements of various conspiracies
    * Tien an Men- conspiracy
    * 11/9- probably elements of conspiracy, too many candidates
    * migrant crisis- strongly suggestive of elements of various conspiracies, although not reducible to it
    * Trump’s election- not a conspiracy
    * media & various public and secret reactions & machinations to Trump’s election- a web of conspiracies

  48. @Verymuchalive

    You think Greek and Armenian civilization is older than Sumer????

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  49. @showmethereal

    I did say existing civilisations. Sadly, the Sumerians, Babylonians, Ancient Egyptians and all the rest are ” one with Nineveh and Tyre”. It would be great if some of them were still around. Sumeria and Babylonia would be much more interesting than modern day Iraq.

    More importantly, the survival of these civilisations would connect their peoples much more directly to the roots of their civilisation. The Muslim conquest imposed Islam and the Arab language on the Middle East. In the minds of their peoples what happened previously has been obliterated or has become hazy. It’s as if civilisation only really began 1400 years ago.

    So we should be grateful that the Armenian, Greek and Chinese civilisations, even in their modern attenuated forms, retain that historic memory. Homer is still taught in Greek schools, for example, an 8th Century BC poet dealing with 13th Century BC events.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  50. @Verymuchalive

    Oh ok… Understood. Thanks for the clarification

  51. Afghanistan sits bang in the middle of four continuous cultures – Persians, Indians, Turks and Chinese; no wonder there were perpetual wars. Add to that the attempts to drive each other out. As Churchill put it, “The 19th Century brought two things – one good, and one bad; the rifle and the British government”.
    Now that it is clear that Russia and China have shown their hands behind the present Afghan government, CIA is bound to fight against them, to keep opium cultivation; problem is, now fewer people are willing to be its tools.

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