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India Implodes Its Own New Silk Road
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An Indian Train Ride. Credit: Asia Times/Facebook.

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There was a time when New Delhi was proudly selling the notion of establishing its own New Silk Road – from the Gulf of Oman to the intersection of Central and South Asia – to compete with China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI).

Now it looks like the Indians have stabbed themselves in the back.

In 2016, Tehran and New Delhi signed a deal to build a 628-km rail line from strategic Chabahar port to Zahedan, very close to the Afghan border, with a crucial extension to Zaranj, in Afghanistan, and beyond.

The negotiations involved Iranian Railways and Indian Railway Constructions Ltd. But in the end nothing happened – because of Indian foot-dragging. So Tehran has decided to build the railway anyway, with its own funds – $400 million – and completion scheduled for March 2022.

The railway was supposed to be the key transportation corridor linked to substantial Indian investments in Chabahar, its port of entry from the Gulf of Oman for an alternative New Silk Road to Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Upgrading rail/road infrastructure from Afghanistan to its neighbors Tajikistan and Uzbekistan would be the next step. The whole operation was inscribed in a trilateral India-Iran-Afghanistan deal – signed in 2016 in Tehran by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani and then Afghan President Ashraf Ghani.

The unofficial New Delhi excuse revolves around fears that the project would be slammed with US sanctions. New Delhi actually did get a Trump administration sanctions waiver for Chabahar and the rail line to Zahedan. The problem was to convince an array of investment partners, all of them terrified of being sanctioned.

In fact, the whole saga has more to do with Modi’s wishful thinking of expecting to get preferential treatment under the Trump administration’s Indo-Pacific strategy, which relies on a de facto Quad (US, India, Australia, Japan) containment of China. That was the rationale behind New Delhi deciding to cut off all its oil imports from Iran.

So far all practical purposes, India threw Iran under the bus. No wonder Tehran decided to move on its own, especially now with the $400 billion, 25-year “Comprehensive Plan for Cooperation between Iran and China”, a deal that seals a strategic partnership between China and Iran.

In this case, China may end up exercising control over two strategic “pearls” in the Arabian Sea/Gulf of Oman only 80 km away from each other: Gwadar, in Pakistan, a key node of the $61 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), and Chabahar.

Tehran, so far, has denied that Chabahar port will be offered on a lease to Beijing. But what is a real possibility, apart from Chinese investments in an oil refinery near Chabahar, and even, in the long run, in the port itself, is an operational link between Gwadar and Chabahar. That will be complemented by the Chinese operating the port of Bandar-e-Jask in the Gulf of Oman, 350 km to the west of Chabahar and very close to the hyper-strategic Strait of Hormuz.

How corridors attract

Not even a Hindu deity on hangover could possibly imagine a more counter-productive “strategy” for Indian interests in case New Delhi backs off from its cooperation with Tehran.

Let’s look at the essentials. What Tehran and Beijing will be working on is a de facto massive expansion of CPEC, with Gwadar linked to Chabahar and further onwards to Central Asia and the Caspian via Iranian railways, as well as connected to Turkey and the Eastern Mediterranean (via Iraq and Syria), all the way to the EU.

This game-changing progress will be at the heart of the whole Eurasian integration process – uniting China, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and of course Russia, which is linked to Iran via the International North-South Transport Corridor (INSTC).

For the moment, for all its hefty reverberations in multiple areas – upgrade of energy infrastructure, refurbishing of ports and refineries, construction of a connectivity corridor, investments in manufacturing, and a steady supply of Iranian oil and gas, a matter of national security for China – there’s no question that the Iran-China deal is being effectively downplayed by both sides.

The reasons are self-evident: not to raise the Trump administration’s ire to even more incandescent levels, considering both actors are considered “existential threats”. Still, Mahmoud Vezi, chief of staff for President Rouhani, guarantees the final Iran-China deal with be signed by March 2021.

CPEC, meanwhile, is on a roll. What Chabahar was supposed to do for India is already in effect at Gwadar – as transit trade to Afghanistan started only a few days ago, with bulk cargo arriving from the UAE. Gwadar is already establishing itself as a key transit hub to Afghanistan – way ahead of Chabahar.

For Kabul, the strategic factor is essential. Afghanistan essentially depends on overland routes from Pakistan – some can be extremely unreliable – as well as Karachi and Port Qasim. Especially for southern Afghanistan, the overland link from Gwadar, through Balochistan, is much shorter and safer.

For Beijing, the strategic factor is even more essential. For China, Chabahar would not be a priority, because access to Afghanistan is easier, for instance, via Tajikistan.

But Gwadar is a completely different story. It’s being configured, slowly but surely, as the key Maritime Silk Road hub connecting China with the Arabian Sea, the Middle East and Africa, with Islamabad collecting hefty transit funds. Win-win in a nutshell – but always taking into consideration that protests and challenges from Balochistan simply won’t disappear, and require very careful management by Beijing-Islamabad.

Chabahar-Zahedan was not the only recent setback for India. India’s External Affairs Ministry has recently admitted that Iran will develop the massive Farzad-B gas field in the Persian Gulf “on its own” and India might join “appropriately at a later stage”. The same “at a later stage” spin was applied by New Delhi for Chabahar-Zahedan.

The exploration and production rights for Farzad B were already granted years ago for India’s state company ONGC Videsh Limited (OVL). But then, again, nothing happened – due to the proverbial specter of sanctions.

ORDER IT NOW

Sanctions, by the way, had been in effect already under Obama. Yet at the time, India and Iran at least traded goods for oil. Farzad B was scheduled to be back on track after the signing of the JCPOA in 2015. But then Trump’s sanctions iced it again.

It doesn’t take a PhD in political science to ascertain who may eventually take over Farzad B: China, especially after the signing of the 25-year partnership next year.

India, against its own energy and geostrategic interests, has in fact been reduced to the status of hostage of the Trump administration. The real target of applying Divide and Rule to India-Iran is to prevent them from trading in their own currencies, bypassing the US dollar, especially when it comes to energy.

The Big Picture though is always about New Silk Road progress across Eurasia. With increasing evidence of closer and closer integration between China, Iran and Pakistan, what’s clear is that India remains integrated only with its own inconsistencies.

(Republished from Asia Times by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Akouo says:

    This is old news.

    • Replies: @CyrusTheGreat
  2. “Modi’s wishful thinking” – once again we have writers pretending to be mind readers.

    How about – India is just putting its own interests first, and avoiding international relationships which may compromise its security. You think India is weak. That’s wrong. India in the British era was the dominant Asian power, China was a basket case. Things changed, and they can change again. Now China has put all its eggs in one basket, we shall see how that works out for them, or we can look into their past where they lurched from boom to bust in a vast cycle of famine and feasting. It would not take much to set them back on downward spiral. India’s diversity is one of its strengths and a reason it has not had the same experience as China, India is more resilient in the long run.

    • Disagree: Biff
    • LOL: SOL
  3. WHAT says:
    @axually it does

    Typical sad hindu delusions, especially the hysterically laughable “diversity is strength” part. Chinese literally beat you clowns to death with just sticks, imagine if they started shooting.

    • Troll: JohnPlywood
    • Replies: @republic
    , @JohnPlywood
  4. @axually it does

    India in the British era was a British colony, and one would think that pretty much precludes it from any claim of being a dominant power.

  5. Financing for international infrastructure

    The real problem is India’s limited resources. For an apples to apples comparison of China v. India lending for international infrastructure projects, India’s Export Import Bank Lines of Credit does less than 5% of the lending of Export Import Bank of China and China Development Bank in the same type of financing. The problem is not simply India’s economy is a lot smaller, India also has many pressing domestic problems and simply can’t put up the capital necessary for building international corridors. Of the money it does advance, India has been haphazard. There is a $1.2 billion refinery in Mongolia financed by India Exim. Total GDP of Mongolia is $13 billion so sounds like a risky big project for a small country with moderate growth. India’s motive in making a huge loan to Mongolia is to build influence in China’s neighborhood. But it”s an example of India overextending itself as the bank’s resources are too stretched to not lose influence in its own strategic neighborhood.

    Indian wishful thinking

    There is a big element of wishful thinking among Indians that China’s run is about to end and India will finally rise. However, I believe the gap will keep on growing over the next decades just as it has in the past decades.

    India’s diversity is certainly not its strength. Outside of the Hindu mainstream, it means a lot of active and dormant insurgencies (Kashmir Valley, Northeast, and Red Corridor). Within the Hindu mainstream diversity means the disadvantaged groups will eventually gain 70% reservation. Modi cleared the way for this in 2019 by breaking the 50% reservation threshold to appeal to poor forward community voters. High caste Hindus are the best leadership material India has but still no match for the Imperial Civil Service of yore. Imagine how dysfunctional the high end of the civil service will become when the high caste is squeezed into a 30% General Category.

    India should dispense with the wishful thinking and be more compromising in engaging China.

    • Replies: @Daemon
  6. Daemon says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    Given the choice between personal interest and their pride, the indian will pick his pride each and every time. Multiply that individual by roughly a billion and you get the modern Indian state.

    • Agree: Tor597
  7. Rahan says:
    @axually it does

    India’s diversity is one of its strengths

    But India is still very behind with the number of castrated tranny boys and purple-haired poly-gender landwhales. Until they start on that and produce some visible results in that department, they’re just not strong enough yet.

    Plus they need to import at least 15 million space tech builders from the Congo and the Sudan. Only then, combined with a couple of million of tranny schoolkids, will their diversity mana reach the needed levels of strength.

    A lot of work to be done yet.

    • LOL: Whitewolf
    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @PolarBear
  8. @axually it does

    Is that a joke? India has been historically more resilient???? India was at its apex when it was part of the Muslim Mughal Empire. In the British Raj the Indians were serfs – just above a slave. The fact is the west could only seize coastal cities in the Qing era. The Brits by themselves conquered India and all its neighbors.. so explain who India was the main Asian power. You need to re-learn history to find out who had more influence in Asia and later the world during the Han – Song – Tang – Ming dynasties…. Not even close.
    The irony is that India was strongest under Muslim rule yet India treats Muslims far worse than the west claims that China treats its Muslims.
    As to that “diversity” in India. Tibet and Xinjiang and evn Hong Kong are nursery school compared to Kashmir – Manipur – Assam – Nagaland etc.
    But reading your analysis is baffling. You claim China is putting all its eggs in one basket..???? The BRI is the exact opposite of China putting its eggs in one basket. The whole point is to diversify. You couldnt be more backward…

    You are correct about China’s booms and busts and feasts and famines. No dispute there… But those are measured in centuries when you look at China. They haven’t gotten back to their apex yet – so you have yet to see their crest and plateau…. So how long before you think they slide again..??? I wouldnt bet your family fortune that you see it with your own eyes. Maybe your great grand children will.

    Let us continue to deal with reality. India had (and still has) a chance to partner with China with BRI – in the same way it participates in China/Russia led BRICS – NDB – SCO. Instead in the past few years some high ranking Indians who yearn for the days of Anglo subjugation amd others who value their owm economy and tech might WAY too highly thought it a good idea to join the US to challenge China. In doing so it has distanced long time ally Russia and left Iran in the lurch. If India wanted to remain independent – it wouldnt stop its dealings with its friemd Iran just to olease Washington. It is operating like a vassal. Escobar is correct.

  9. @Showmethereal

    I’m not going to suggest that India wasn’t “strong”, as in militarily strong, under the Mughals. However, as with the Muslim expansion north and west, they destroyed libraries and texts (knowledge) that did not pass their religious beliefs. Like Muslims everywhere, they had no problem with exporting slaves of the conquered, and looted the vanquished. When they separated from the the other caliphates, it was for financial purposes, not ideological ones.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @KA
    , @Showmethereal
    , @Alden
  10. @Obsequious

    No. almost all the administration, including military was done locally. Kuwait, indeed Iraq, to Malaysia and at times to Canton was governed by the Indian Civil Service. Indian resources did that not homeland British.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    , @Malla
  11. anon[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @axually it does

    Hasn’t India sold the rail ,airports,ports,mining,steel industry, oil industry,coal,road construction to BJP ‘s donor class ?
    Hasn’t it GDP been before this COVID outbreak?
    Isnt it’s purchasing power is one order of magnitude less than that of Sri Lanka and Thailand ? Isn’t it’s GDP per person is less than double of Bangladesh and Pakistan?
    Arent it health morbidity mortality indices are less inspiring than Bangladesh Pakistan Sri Lanka Thailand ?

    India is now making threats against Nepal and questioning Bangladesh’s political orientation rather crudely .
    Education ‘s standard is fraying and decaying .

    India gloats having some Indian CEOs in American mega billion dollar industries . But India forgets that China has built similar industries with global reach.

    Inside India,job growth has been negative . The worst unemployment in the recorded history of post – independent India has been hobbling India for last 2 years . It is trying to throw the punches above its weight for decades with disastrous result . Maldives is balancing ,so are Bhutan and Nepal between China and Nepal.

    India is rewriting the history in order to present a tolerant nonviolent but powerful energetic India . It in same breath is asking the world to be ready for undivided India incorporating Pakistan Afghanistan Sri Lanka and areas controlled by China . It’s offer to those future non – Hindu citizen is to live as non citizen subservient to Hindu. But it also tells the world that it’s a secular democratic non violent country .

    • Thanks: Alden, annamaria
  12. anon[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Curmudgeon

    Destruction of monasteries ,stupas,and shrines had been happening in India since the collapse of Buddhist Mayurya empire in 2-3 AD.
    Libraries have been destroyed by us – Christian zealot also. Library of Alexandria and lynching of the women scholars in Alexandria by our zealot priest h marked the early years of Christianity . Europe has seen destruction of non Christian shrines and learning places by advancing Christianity . Burning of religious buildings and killing have been part of the lay of the lands in the decades following the schism of Catholicism and emergence of Annabaptist Lutheran and Calvinism and Protestants .

    It was during Mughal and during Pathan rules some of the best learning centers,new buildings, road, and newer developments in science and medicine took place . Before Britain started exporting clothes medicines and equipments , it had been importing same from India until the East India company took the reins and ruined the indigenous infrastructure and the system.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Malla
  13. KA says:
    @Curmudgeon

    1 Sasanka (Hindu Shiva devotee 6th century ) persecuted Buddhists with a vengeance and endeavored to extirpate the Buddhists from his dominions. He allegedly destroyed innumerable Buddhist stupas and converted viharas to Hindu temples in places such as Nalanda, Bodhgaya, Sarnath and Mathura. It is also alleged that he cut the Bodhi tree where the Buddha found enlightenment, in the Mahabodhi Temple of Bodh Gaya. What we see today is not the original tree. — https://www.getbengal.com/details/even-hindu-rulers-destroyed-buddhist-stupas-and-built-temples-on-them

    [MORE]

    2 Buddhist shrines massively destroyed by Brahmanical rulers in “pre-Islamic” era: Historian DN Jha’s survey
    Prominent historian DN Jha, an expert in India’s ancient and medieval past, in his new book, “Against the Grain: Notes on Identity, Intolerance and History”, in a sharp critique of “Hindutva ideologues”, who look at the ancient period of Indian history as “a golden age marked by social harmony, devoid of any religious violence”, has said, “Demolition and desecration of rival religious establishments, and the appropriation of their idols, was not uncommon in India before the advent of Islam”. https://www.counterview.net/2018/06/buddhist-shrines-massively-destroyed-by.html

    3 Muslim kings dint persecute Hindu citizen

    from–Who Invented Hinduism?
    David N. Lorenzen 

    Comparative Studies in Society and History
    Vol. 41, No. 4 (Oct., 1999), pp. 630-659 (30 pages)
    p 631
    “in fact state sponsored persecution was only sporadic and was targeted at the temples buildings and not at people ”

    4 Indian Puranic sources also, such as the Pratisarga Parva of the Bhavishya Purana, describe the resurgence of Brahmanism following the Maurya Dynasty, and the killing of millions of Buddhists

    5 The Divyavadana, a Buddhist Sanskrit work from the early centuries of the Common Era, describes the Brahmin ruler Pushyamitra Shunga as a great persecutor of Buddhists.
    He is said to have marched out with a large army, destroying stupas, burning monasteries and killing monks as far as Sakala, now known as Sialkot, where he announced a prize of one hundred dinars for every head of a Shramana (or as Buddhists were known).

    6 The possibility of a Shunga assault on Buddhist monuments is supported by the layers of debris and the evidence of desertion found at many centres of Buddhism, notably in Madhya Pradesh. For example, Sanchi, in Raisen district, which was an important Buddhist site since the time of Ashoka, has yielded evidence of the vandalisation of several edifices during the Shunga period. Similar evidence comes from nearby places such as Satdhara, in Katni district, and Deurkothar, in Rewa district

    7Jaina Heritage: Distinction, Decline and Resilience  – January 1, 2011 by by Julia Hegewald furnish evidence of the large scale destructions of the shrines and the temples of the Jain by the Shaivit/Virshaivite sects in S India starting from 12 the century having destroyed 800 basadis and 2000 Jian temples out of 8000. Jain request to Vijyanagara ruling family for protection from Hindu mob went unanswered .
    From–
    Brahmanical Intolerance in Early India
    D.N. Jha
    Social Scientist
    Vol. 44, No. 5/6 (May–June 2016), pp. 3-10 (8 pages

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon
  14. antibeast says:
    @axually it does

    The problem with Indians is Hindu India.

    After peaking during the Buddhist Maurya Empire, India has gone downhill ever since the Brahmins invented the Hindu caste system which makes them loyal to their own Hindu caste but not to India. How can modern Indians achieve national unity if the Brahmin ruling elites want to maintain their medieval Apartheid-style caste system in order to preserve their Hindu-derived class privileges? Just look at how Westernized English-speaking Indian elites behave by emulating White British or American elites. Just look at how Modi’s Hindu elites pander to the USA and the West while backstabbing India’s allies such as Iran and Russia.

    It’s ironic that the Buddhism promoted by Ashoka the Great to the rest of Asia benefitted East and Southeast Asians more than the Indians who later became enslaved by the Hindu caste system invented by the Brahmins. Buddhism (as well as Jainism) arose in part as a reaction to the oppressive and exploitative Hindu caste system which succeeded in displacing and negating all the Buddhist achievements of Ashoka the Great. While the Buddhists preached the dharma of love and compassion for all sentient beings, the Brahmins preached class hatred by instituting their Apartheid-style caste system sanctioned by their Hindu religion! While the Buddhists practiced Spiritual Communism to achieve Enlightenment as part of their sangha which is available to anyone, the Brahmins practiced Apartheid-style class discrimination based on someone’s caste, excluding everyone but the high-caste Hindus!

    It’s about time for Indians to look at themselves in the mirror and see who is really behind India’s predicament which is its millennia-old, medieval caste-system.

    • Agree: Tor597
    • Thanks: dogbumbreath
    • Replies: @Anon
  15. @Philip Owen

    Was Queen Vicky half-Pajeet, too? Tell me more, Brown man.

    • Replies: @WHAT
  16. WHAT says:
    @Supply and Demand

    She was not even human. Then again, a good argument can be made that neither is pajeet.

  17. KA says:

    1-A Short History by David Ludden  (Prof of history at U Penn) – Vijayasena defeated the Palas and expelled the Buddhist from Bengal .

    Many violent conflicts occurred during ancient and medieval times. Several texts described massacre of Buddhist and Jains

    2 THE EARLY PURANAS: REPRESENTING THE SUPERNATURAL SOCIAL GROUPS
    Kundan Kumar Raj
    Proceedings of the Indian History Congress
    Vol. 74 (2013), pp. 64-71 (8 pages)- Sexual slavery, comfort women permanent incarceration of the defeated non Vedic non Aryan tribes were not Islam’s ideas It was Vedantic and it was sanctioned by the Vedic God
    The idea included even gaslighting the poor low caste women into believing that agreeing to and offering sex to the Brahim
    would ensure them the most exalted fate like that of a Vedic scholar . Those defeated tribes were told that their women should worship Vedic gods ,give charity to Brahmins agree to sex on demand and give away cow gold land and grains on the day of the worshipping .

    3 Peace or negotiation was not even part of the Vedic Hindu’s vocabulary . Warrior caste was enjoined to get everything they want in life or for the community get by exercise of the force .Even if the enemies offered the loot territory land or even the daughters without fights ,the warriors caste was forbidden to do so –A Note on the Rākṣasa Form of Marriage
    Minoru Hara.
    Journal of the American Oriental Society
    Vol. 94, No. 3 (Jul. – Sep., 1974), pp. 296-306

  18. @Rahan

    Well actually …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddi

    As for the rainbow whales they are a drag (ow!)
    who needs them anyway?

  19. @Curmudgeon

    Ok but how is that different than most empires and religions.? The west doesnt like to admit but the Islamic world had advnced centers of learning from timbuktu in Africa up through Central Asia.

    • Disagree: Alden
    • Replies: @bomag
  20. J_Garbo says:

    Unfair fight. The Indians are world champion talkers. In a shouting match India would win every time. Fighting, never.

    • LOL: showmethereal
  21. Tony Hall says:

    Great discussion. Vive Unz’s comments section! All Pepe’s discussion of transportation corridors and such would have been enormously helped by a map displaying the appropriate geographic configurations.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  22. @Tony Hall

    Indeed… Escobar must have some great adventures going through all of Asia. Real world experience makes his writing more poignant.

  23. More silk roads the better,
    Communication is good. Trading is good. Tourism is good.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  24. vot tak says:

    For the reasons of the self destructive direction india has taken recently, look at israeli/zionazi influence over the current regime. Fear of american reprisals, as pepe posits, is window dressing. The usa is an israeli enforcer tool. To be used for zionazi geostrategic goals like india is being used. The current indian conflict with China is part of an overall zpc/nwo campaign to subdue China.

    Both modi and merkel play the same sort of role for zionazia.

  25. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:
    @antibeast

    Yes, i have often wondered why Buddhism is not widespread in India, unlike other parts of east Asia. Perhaps India would have done much better otherwise.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  26. PolarBear says:
    @Rahan

    Fit Indian women seem more rare than Indian trannies.

  27. gotmituns says:

    the high point of india was the invention of thugee and sutee…

    • Replies: @trickster
  28. A typical dirty yellow rat ass kissing article from the not so bright wetback Pepe Escobar … there ain’t gonna be a China as you think is it going to be … the conflagration is coming and their won’t be any new silk road, boulevard, avenue or even an itty bitty silky alley for that matter.

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @trickster
    , @Mefobills
  29. In the great country of India, conquered by Aryans or taken over due to advancement, lower-caste children are frequently either raped and then hanged or raped and then burned alive. The Daily Mail frequently has published articles, including photographs.

    India continues to have temple prostitution and prepubescent young girls are given to the temple and the wealthy Indians pay the temple to have sex with these women. I believe that these young girls are called deva-dassi.

    Modi’s BJP has burned Muslim Mosques and many radical members seek to expel Muslims from India.

    I know of one instance where a native of India, who was in the United States illegally, attempted to have a Muslim reporter deported to Central Asia so that the Muslim reporter, who was married to an American citizen, could be tried for reporting against the official line of her country. The native of India later married an American, Jewish citizen who favors expelling Muslims from the United States.

    India also has a vibrant Communist party, which seeks to destroy capitalism- much like the vibrant leftists, who wish to destroy capitalism while spending their lives working as civil servants for the City of New York.

    I am not an expert on India- but a country where ten year old girls can be raped and set on fire and be protected by a political party cannot succeed. At least not in this present time.
    wallstreetcrusader48.worpress.com

    Thank you.

    Edward Manfredonia

  30. @Zarathustra

    Communication and trade is good. Mass immigration (especially from the Third World to the First World) and mass tourism (especially from the First World to the Third World) is not good. Mass tourism to places like Bali and Thailand is destroying their culture.

  31. @edward manfredonia

    India as a country is a very unstable concept and it’s viability rests on feet of clay. It is a surprise how the neighbouring Pakistan (which is religiously homogenous and although ethnically diverse, still has groups who share similar genetics and culture) still hasn’t managed to break India’s back in places like Kashmir, seeing how much support it received from the United States and how weak India is pound for pound.

    Indian leaders are being very foolish in their decision to get in bed with America in their strategy to contain China, which is futile in conventional terms and can only really be done through warfare, which will be devastating for India.

    Let’s hope they see the light, for the sake of world prosperity which China seems to be genuine about, America has shown itself to be an unreliable partner as we saw during the Pakistan-America years, after which America discarded Pakistan like a used condom after it used it as a launching pad for the insurgency against the Soviets in Afghanistan. The same fate awaits India if they continue down this ruinous path.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  32. trickster says:

    The whole problem with India is that it has too many Indians. Our problem is that they come here. After thousands of years their greatest contribution to civilization is curry !

    One Englishman who returned to India many years after WW2 was appalled at the train service having turned up several times for a trip only to find the train departure was once again delayed. “This country worked when we ran it” he yelled at the half asleep slovenly station master. When the poor fellow finally boarded he had to wait another 5 hours in the blistering heat before the train driver Ramnauth Govinder Gopaul Singh got the locomotive going. He then discovered to his horror that he would have no view of the picturesque country side as dozens hung on outside the train and on the roof. Occasionally there would be a hoarse scream as some Babu fell under the wheels but Gopaul Singh was already behind schedule and stopping was out of the question. Our erstwhile Englishman also discovered that first class in India was the equivalent of the livestock caboose in the Old West. This stellar service exists in every facet of Indian society, business and government service.

    I am not in the least surprised that this project has ended in self inflicted disaster. I mean, even trying to foist plumbing, running water and toilets on India has been fruitless.

    These oily characters run a close second to the black man and as in times past they need the firm hand of the white man to rule and control them. Otherwise they are completely useless.

    Dont believe the Trickster ? Well then just tool over to your nearest international airport (arrivals) and see how many arrive here every flight to be met by dozens of relatives and friends and then proceed to the departures to see how many whites are immigrating to India.

    Our problem is not that they are THERE but that they are HERE, and in increasing numbers. Why would a civilization thousands of years old want to come to a country just a few centuries old ?

    Can someone explain ?

  33. trickster says:
    @gotmituns

    …..and curry !

    ….and chicken tandoori !

  34. trickster says:
    @Really No Shit

    The problem with Pepe is that he clears his sinuses with the same medication as Pablo.

    • Agree: Really No Shit
  35. Mefobills says:
    @Really No Shit

    Why are you triggered? You fling ad-hominems at Pepe and then project your fears.

    What China is doing is pretty simple if you have eyes that see.

    Western Atlantacism is Rim Theory/Sea Power/Finance Capitalism

    China is the former American System: Overland Rail/Area Denial/Industrial Capitalism

    Overland rail are nodes of connections that don’t require ships. In effect, rail is ships on the land.

    Area Denial is a close in military using a littoral navy. Sea Power requires a blue water navy to force project great distances. Area Denial is close-in to your borders and is mostly defense. Blue Water projection is offensive (one reason why America starts wars).

    Industrial Capitalism is using State Banks and State Credit, which channels into industry and the commons.

    Finance Capitalism is private finance using its private money power to make “international deals” via supposedly free markets. FC was invented in Amsterdam (Naval Power) and then jumped to London (Naval Power), finally jumping to Wall Street by 1913. America then fully converted to blue water navy Atlantacism.

    The British/Jewish parasite was fully embedded into America’s bloodstream by 1913, and was solidified into place by the end of WW1.

    India’s modern history cannot be divorced from East India company, which was a constituent part of FC. Finance Capitalism was the first melding of private banking controlling a country, which also tied to corporations such as East India, where the stocks of said companies were on-sold into markets.

    Modi has sided with Atlanticism. Finance Capital looks for low cost labor anywhere in the world, and that labor is now Vietnam and hopefully India (or so Modi thinks).

    Industrial capitalism wants to build up its domestic and national labor, to make it more productive by investing in plant and equipment, including robots.

    China wins. Get butt-hurt all you want. The silk-road is happening just a Pepe says.

    What actually has to happen is that America needs to pull head out-o-rectum, and look to their real history, which is the American System of our Founders, that which was invented in the Mass Bay Colonies by John Winthrop.

    The British/Jewish system of usury, finance capital, rim theory, atlantacism is a foreign virus.

  36. bomag says:
    @anon

    Libraries have been destroyed by us – Christian zealots also.

    Maybe should note that Christian influence built and expanded libraries far more than any destruction.

    Islam has barely caught up to what they destroyed.

  37. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    “…India as a country is a very unstable concept and it’s viability rests on feet of clay. It is a surprise how the neighbouring Pakistan (which is religiously homogenous and although ethnically diverse, still has groups who share similar genetics and culture) still hasn’t managed to break India’s back in places like Kashmir, seeing how much support it received from the United States and how weak India is pound for pound…”

    You do not know what you are talking about. For comparing India’s military strength with that of Pakistan, see : India vs Pakistan : Military strength and arsenal, dhakatribune.com 2019/02/28.

    Keep also in mind that in the war of 1971 India defeated Pakistan in merely 13 days. Pakistan is no match for India, and the Pakistanis know it.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  38. @trickster

    I think it would be more efficient for us to send some of our European administrators to run their countries rather than the current setup, where hordes of them come here to live under White administration and the organic friction this causes between the common folk.

    To complicate this even further, we have a hostile media constantly inciting these people against us and our civilisation. Black Panther for example has done so much to boost black racial egotism, that they now think a black-run society wouldn’t just end up like Zimbabwe or the many other tinpot African nations.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  39. bomag says:
    @Showmethereal

    The West doesn’t like to admit it, but the Islamic world had advanced centers of learning…

    ???

    More like the West has dug up; cataloged; and trumpeted the modest amount of (disappeared) scholarship from the Islamic world.

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @showmethereal
  40. Alden says:
    @Showmethereal

    “ India was at its apex when it was part of the Muslim Mughal Empire” says it all doesn’t it? Somehow the Muslims managed India better than the Hindus ever did. Later India did very well under the Portuguese, French and British and triumphed under the British

    Best thing the Mughals ever did for India was totally crack down on a hereditary Hindu caste of nomadic thieves and conmen. The thief caste wandered into Europe, learned about Christianity, claimed to be Christian Egyptian refugees and have caused problems all over Europe for the last 700 years.

    I’ll never forget how the Portuguese sailed into Mumbai Harbor and the local Hindu princes just turned their territories over to the Portuguese for a cut of the profits.

    It would be nice to see the Indian perspective on the the railroad.

    • Replies: @Malla
  41. Alden says:
    @Showmethereal

    I don’t know much about India. But I just assumed that the US state department CIA etc approached India to join some kind of anti China coalition.

    America allied with China against Russia for decades and Taiwan Hong Kong S Korea Thailand and the Philippines against China at the same time.

    China now seems to be the commercial military rival of the USA right now. So it’s safe to assume the USA is behind the India vs China problems.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  42. Alden says:
    @Curmudgeon

    Agree, especially about the destruction of libraries. The great library of Alexandria Egypt survived till sometime in the 900s AD when the caliph if Baghdad ordered all the scrolls and books burned because; “ We only need one book and that is the Koran”

    Actually there was a more practical and pressing reason. There was a decades long cold spell in the Mid East. Because of centuries of bad forestry practice, there were no more trees to cut down for firewood for cooking and industrial purposes and there was no coal.

    So the Caliph ordered the books to be burnt for fires.

    But, and it’s a big but, 900AD was the middle of a major global warming spell. So, was there really a terrible cold spell on the southern but not northern shores of the Mediterranean?

    The Muslims destroyed everything and all those glorious mosques and public buildings, from architects and engineers to porters and cleaners were built by European Christian slaves.

    In present day India and Pakistan, the southern Hindu dominated areas thrive. Pakistan and northern Muslim dominated territories are disasters in every way.

    • Replies: @KA
  43. @trickster

    India is kinda of a s^!thole. Also diversity there is like diversity here -crime ridden. Unlike India, we still have nice gated suburbs with big old McMansions. So the high caste payoff whores like Mike Lee to get visas to move here in droves. Not sure their work is all that good, but they do show up and are better then the Ms Have-It-All(s) and the Wakanda(s). Also the Indian kids do win a lot of the all important spelling bees.

  44. The Silk Road just seems like pure PR drivel. There are plenty of current freighter ships sailing and airplanes flying to get the job done without a “road”. The sad part is the Silk Road will connect those in “flyover” country, who might just want their independence and culture to remain as it is. Seems like globohomo has the CCP just doing cultural killing bidding here. Oddly India might win in the long run by losing. Then again…. the ambitions of Modi won’t let them.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  45. haha says:
    @axually it does

    “India in the British era was the dominant Asian power”.

    Wow that even beats the mouse that roared! You doing some special brain-enhancing yogi stuff?

    • Replies: @haha
    , @Tor597
  46. @axually it does

    India’s diversity is one of its strengths

    Given the rise of BJP and Hindu nationalism, most Indian voters clearly disagree with this.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  47. republic says:
    @WHAT

    India: the world’s largest open toilet!

  48. haha says:
    @haha

    And talking of yogi stuff: Once in the late sixties, I thought I’d try transcendental meditation. So I went to a yogi-style TM training center. I could not sit through class with a straight face as the yogi-teacher was claiming that with advanced practice we would be able to fly anywhere. Mind over matter stuff, claimed with a level of credulity, belief in magic, and sheer idiocy that left me hysterical in fits of laughter. Needless to add, that was the end of my trial of yogi clap trap and meditation.

    • Replies: @trickster
  49. Tor597 says:
    @Anon

    Buddhism is a direct threat to the caste system that Hindus use. So is Christianity. So Hindus make sure to suppress these religions anywhere they go.

  50. Tor597 says:
    @haha

    This is typical Indian thinking. Indians don’t particularly care about putting in the work to make their country better.

    Instead they only care about where they stand compared to other castes and other countries.

    This is why India is teaming up with America. It knows it has no chance of beating China, so their only hope is to team up with America and try and take China down.

  51. @WHAT

    You must be suffering from crack-induced delusions… China got its ass beat in the skirmishes snd is now losing territory. Chinese can’t fight worth a damn.

  52. @Old and Grumpy

    Just FYI. The Chinese didn’t give their projects a name, it was us Americans who started to call it belt n road. Not sure about the Indian road.

    So it is PR, but meant to give it attention in the west. The bad sort of attention.

  53. @Mefobills

    The long tirade won’t prevent the hegemon and the understudy from clashing in the near future be it a Democrat or the Orange Man in the Whitehouse… it is inevitable and welcome relief to those who abhor, incidentally the vast majority of nations, the passing of baton to the yellow peril. So, let’s just wait and see … shall we?

  54. @JohnPlywood

    Are you Indian? The only news sources saying this are all Indian. And the numbers changes with each source and date. Inconsistencies = lying. Or badly coordinated propaganda.

  55. techvet says:

    What happens with Indians in India isn’t my concern actually. What concerns me is they are coming in record numbers bringing their shitty caste system and passive aggressive ethnic narcissism with them. They’ve overtaken almost everyone else as far as legal imm is concerned. They are #5 in the illegal category too

    Since I work in tech I’ve seen it all. If they are not being condescending, its the shifty hindoo again. A wealthy minority which is well connected, highly clannish, plays its cards carefully and waiting for the chosen ones to relinquish control is a dreadful prospect. They are used to a slimy shady system and are actually far more suited to the US’s kleptocracy than anyone else. Its a nightmare

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  56. @Really No Shit

    Can we send your retarded ass to the front lines? Let’s get rid of the yellow peril!!! Shit, it is your duty. Die for your glorious country.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  57. @Mefobills

    good information
    thanks

    • Thanks: Mefobills
  58. Mefobills says:
    @Really No Shit

    The passing of the baton to the yellow peril will happen because China is running an industrial capitalist economy. It is baked into the cake…. a foregone conclusion.

    Finance capital attacked industrial capitalist Germany… twice. Both times Germany was attacked, was because finance capitalists in London and Wall Street became jealous of losing their cat-bird seat. They couldn’t compete, so they maneuvered and attacked with war.

    It bears repeating. …Finance capital cannot compete with industrial capital.

    You want European people to win and have a good life, then the white man needs to pull head out-o-rectum, and realize he has been punked with Jewish usury finance. The anglo-saxon white men of England and America especially are punked with false constructs that blind them to reality.

    The battleground between FC and IC started in the U.S., as both types of economy were ascendant at different times, with our (((friends))) pushing us over the edge into FC, especially with the election of 1912.

    You cannot fix a problem, if you cannot identify it first.

    I’m not happy about my country being invaded by global south people (labor has feet and can move), or exporting of finance capital to China to then export our jobs. In both cases it is FC looking for sordid gain, and not giving a damn about improving labor or industry. I got mine, and screw you is the mantra.

    I’m not happy about my country thinking that only profits matter. Profits that are gotten through hook and crook, and by any means are OK, because the only thing that matters is profit. Greed is good.

    The first battle is not with China, but at home with the inside enemy. The finance class is to be ejected from the citadels of power. China is only holding a mirror up to finance capitalism, and saying. You lose.

    (Life in England since they adopted finance capitalism has turned out pretty shitty too – as England is now over-run with non-white immigrants.)

    Below link is England before they allowed the Jew to infiltrate. Before BOE and jewish finance method, England ran on King Edward’s Talley Stick System.

    http://studimonetari.org/articoli/lifewithoutusury.html

    upper middle ages around 1500

    _______________

    Thorold Rogers wrote of that era: “At that time a labourer could provide all the necessities for his family for a year by working fourteen weeks.” The other thirty-eight weeks were his to do as he pleased. Would you like to earn all of the money required to feed, shelter, clothe and recreate your family for a year by working fourteen weeks? What would you do with thirty-eight weeks of vacation per year?

  59. By some miracle, Iran was mysteriously capable of sending 4 naval ships full of oil, all the way to Venezuela, without having to sign a 25 year agreement to borrow $400 billion so that it would be able to export its oil and products to China, and for some other mysterious reason, China honored the U.S. embargo on Iranian products until Iran agreed to the 25 year deal and $400 billion financial scheme. Also by miracle, Iran is somehow able to mysteriously export Persian rugs to the many millionaires and billionaires in the Chinese communist party, all without a new rail or port. Maybe they are magic flying carpets, that just magically fly all the way to China.

    In other words, yes, we would be happy to trade with you, if you give us your money so that you can send us your products by decree in a 25 year iron clad committement, win/win for tne Chinese.

    Andrea Iravani

  60. @Akouo

    I strongly recommend you take your med and go back to bed then.

  61. Malla says:
    @Showmethereal

    In the British Raj the Indians were serfs – just above a slave.

    What rubbish? Indians were serfs before the British came.

    You need to re-learn history to find out who had more influence in Asia and later the world during the Han – Song – Tang – Ming dynasties…

    China was most influential in the far East of Asia.

    The BRI is the exact opposite of China putting its eggs in one basket.

    That is very true actually.

    Let us continue to deal with reality. India had (and still has) a chance to partner with China with BRI

    That is not gonna happen. The Indian population will never accept it. After the latest border fiasco, the Indian nation considers the Chinese state its sworn enemy. If Modi joined the BRI, he would become very unpopular with the Indian masses for selling out to China.

    Instead in the past few years some high ranking Indians who yearn for the days of Anglo subjugation

    The Indian Brahmanical deep state is not making an alliance with Anglos which it hates. The Brahmins hated Anglos (for helping the lower castes), the Anglos single handedly destroyed their power in India by providing an alternative education system (alternative to the Hindu system) and opening it to lower caste people for the first time for millennia.
    What we have here is upper caste Hindus making an alliance with Jews. Indian Brahmanical Deep State merging with the ZOG deep State of the USA (and West) and Israel.

    If India wanted to remain independent – it wouldnt stop its dealings with its friemd Iran just to olease Washington.

    Iran is important to India and Iran is popular with Indians. But Indian exports to USA are much bigger.

  62. Malla says:
    @Alden

    Best thing the Mughals ever did for India was totally crack down on a hereditary Hindu caste of nomadic thieves and conmen.

    The Mughals could not end it. It were the British EIC who ended it.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @Alden
  63. @techvet

    The tech department of a company that I know of was literally taken over within two years after an Indian was in a position of hiring and firing.
    100plus workers, so not a small department.

    It is eerily similar to how higher Ed in the USA got taken over by Jews.

    • Replies: @techvet
  64. @No Friend Of The Devil

    Iranian leaders needs to stand before a firing squad to allow this travesty.

    Mr iravani here would be the way forward for Iran. No doubts or buts.

  65. Malla says:
    @anon

    until the East India company took the reins and ruined the indigenous infrastructure and the system.

    What rubbish? Nothing of the sort happened. Indeed the EIC built more infrastructure.

  66. @Mefobills

    An excerpt from Richard Tedor’s Hitler’s Revolution

    In January 1938, the Soviet diplomat Kristyan Rakovsky commented on the German money system. Rakovsky had held posts in London and in Paris and was acquainted with Wall Street financiers. He explained, “Hitler, this uneducated ordinary man, has out of natural intuition and even despite the opposition of the technician Schacht, created an especially dangerous economic system. An illiterate in every theory of economics driven only by necessity, he has cut out international as well as private high finance. Hitler possesses almost no gold, and so he can’t endeavor to make it a basis for currency. Since the only available collateral for his money is the technical aptitude and great industriousness of the German people, technology and labor became his ‘gold’…. As you know, like magic it’s eliminated all unemployment for more than six million skilled employees and laborers.”

    Germany’s withdrawal from the gold-based, internationally linked monetary system in favor of a medium of exchange founded on domestic productivity corresponded to Hitler’s belief in maintaining the sovereignty of nations. This was an unwelcome development in London, Paris and New York, where cosmopolitan investment and banking institutions profited from loaning money to foreign countries. Germany no longer had to borrow in order to trade on the world market.Foreign demand for German goods correspondingly created more jobs within the Reich

    Is China doing something similar with the digital Yuan? More importantly, how will the Western leadership react to this most unwelcome development (unwelcome to the financial parasites who pull the strings of our nations that is)?

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  67. @Malla

    Iran is popular with Indians.

    But is India popular with Iranians? One would assume that due to the rise of Hindu nationalism combined with the bad press coverage (putting aside whether the coverage is fair or not) would make Iranians look at India with a not so positive mindset.

    As for the Iranian leadership, China’s coffers are much deeper than India’s, so it seems unlikely that India will ever be able to maintain a presence in places like Iran in a competitive capacity, especially considering that Pakistani ties with the Gulf States are breaking down and so Pakistan is shifting towards an alliance with the likes of Turkey, Iran and China. If India managed to make nice with China and Pakistan however, it could instead of competing with China in infrastructure projects, augment the Chinese projects as a partner, this all depends on settling land disputes however.

    On another matter, seeing as you are more clued up on Indian matters, why does India *really* not hold a referendum in Kashmir? I have searched this question online and have not yet found a satisfactory answer.

  68. @Astuteobservor II

    I already did mine … did you, freeloader?

    • Replies: @d dan
  69. Mefobills says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Is China doing something similar with the digital Yuan? More importantly, how will the Western leadership react to this most unwelcome development (unwelcome to the financial parasites who pull the strings of our nations that is)?

    Hitler and Reinhardt resurrected Industrial Capitalism in Germany. Frederick List had imported the system from America, which was called the American System at the time.

    Schacht also created trading banks, which bypassed London and wall street for international trade.

    The German customs union had high “external tariffs” and low internal taxes. This allowed Germany to become an economic union, then become a country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zollverein

    Schacht along with Reinhardt introduced Oeffa and Mefobills, which pumped new purchasing power into the Germany economy, starting in 33. These bills were discounted (traded for) for new Reichsmarks. The purchasing power aligned with new production and labor.

    All money at source is law. Digital Yuan’s tend to be issued by central banks, bypassing private banks further down in the system. China has state banks, and the West has private central banks with privateer stock owners. In the case of the FED its stock is not owned by Treasury.

    The real question is always who does the money power serve.

    I’m not fond of digital money, as it can be used as a form of control, and to monitor the population. Digital money leaves a forensic trail, as it travels on ledgers. If the digital money can be converted into physical form, then it will be ok.

    If money serves a parasitic elite, that is always bad. In the case of China, the elite have the mandate of heaven, and if they screw up, they are ejected. With all of the new methods of control with 24×7 monitoring, that could be abused and China’s leaders don’t get ejected. The West is doing the same thing also, with 24×7 monitoring.

    The Western leadership is globo-homo, some of them are invested in China and like their Chinese assets which make them easy wage arbitrage gains, and other globo homos are seeing red, and want to attack. The situation of today to Weimar Germany is very similar.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
    , @antibeast
  70. @Mefobills

    I won’t deign to attack your finance capital angle and I would further agree that rentier class needs to be reformed severely or destroyed altogether but we’re still not talking about handing over the power to a new hegemon, i.e. China.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  71. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Richest Muslims in India, I believe based on what I have read, are Shias and who, generally speaking, do NOT abhor the Hindoos unlike the Sunni lot, so my guess would be that Iranian public does not bare rabid hatred of a people with whom they’ve been dealing with for over three millennia… perhaps, “Malla” can enlighten us.

  72. KA says:
    @Alden

    Agree, es..” No don’t agree. Agreeing is stupidity.

    Theophilus destroyed Serapeum in 391 AD. With that went into smoke a lot of books . His nephew Cyril banned the non orthodox Christian churches housing any unorthodox literature . Cyril not only went after after pagan and unorthodox Christian knowledge ,he also organized and instigated the killing of Hypatia ,a thinker ,philosopher and mathematician well known and well admired in her time in 415 AD .Hypatia was also the chair at the University of Alexandria already severely damaged from earlier vandalism by the Christo bandit.

    “Caesar’s army burnt library of Alexandria in 48 BC . Collection of books that replaced it “Daughter library “ was burnt down at the order of Theodosisus in 389 AD
    Library of Louvain was destroyed agin second time in 25 years in 1941 by the European armies .Poland experienced burning of books and manuscript after the occupation in the second world war “.https://www.jstor.org/stable/26400808

    Library was not a strong forte of Christian Europe . The Library of Henry V (1387-1422) comprised of six hand written books ,3 of which were on a lone from a nunnery . The wealthiest Eurpean merchant of that era Francesco Daitini of Florence possessed 12 books , 8 of which were on the religious subjects .

    Jerome self-flagellated to rid himself of the urges of reading the extant non -Christian secular books .

    Benedictine monastery did not approve of much reading of anything for 600 years from its beginning.The center allowed reading and copying of the devotional books .

    When Britain destroyed a large masjid in New Delhi after 1857 and turned the main masjid into a stable ,it also destroyed numerous books and documents .

    About Buddhist India , just check the history and you would find numerous examples of looting and pillage and destruction of Buddhist centers by Brahmins -Hinduism . By the time Nalanda was attacked by muslim invader ,it was already in ruins . Buddhism disappeared in 6th century AD Nalnda was invaded 600 years after that .
    South India saw arrival of Buddhism before it had seen the arrival of Hinduism . Building of temples often on the ruins of Buddhist sites followed without fail .

    Buddhist sites were well known centers of learning and those centers maintained a good collection of books .

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @PolarBear
  73. @Malla

    I´m afraid Alden did not mean the friendly guys with the yellow silk scarves 😛

  74. anonymous[116] • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    Lol! How is the quest to conclusively solve the equation, 3-is-1, working out for you geni-ass godless scum? Surely, you “high-IQ” lowlifes can handle something as minor as that. Yeah?

    I know, you should collaborate with all the curry-, er, you know, who are slowly taking over your companies, with juden support. They have similar batshit crazy nuts to fry too.

    Smh! Frickin’ pagans!

  75. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Verily, getting rid of European administrators is worthy of the sweat of the noblest 😛

    The limitations of the idea are on display in Africa; they have more European specialists than during colonial times – and look at the place.

  76. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @No Friend Of The Devil

    without having to sign a 25 year agreement to borrow $400 billion so that it would be able to export its oil and products to China

    In other words, yes, we would be happy to trade with you, if you give us your money so that you can send us your products by decree in a 25 year iron clad committement, win/win for the Chinese

    Sorry, but this is really not understanding, or deliberately being deceptive about the Iran-China deal (I am trying to be kind to the poster). It’s being portrayed as Iran owing China money, on top of promising to send China oil. That is simply FALSE.

    Iran is giving not a single financial cent to China. They don’t owe China any MONEY. They are trading oil and gas in trade for a package of Investments, Products and Tech. A straight business deal.

    Iran did no such thing as “borrow” $400 billion from China. That was the assessed worth of the investments/product/tech package China made a commitment to bring to Iran.

    In direct exchange, Iran made a deal to send China a set amount of oil, for 25 years, at locked-in prices, totaling that self-same amount . . . $400 Billion. The math works out to Iran locking-in $16 Billion worth of annual oil sales for the next 2 1/2 decades, and the Chinese locking-in however much oil that is, also for 2 1/2 decades.

    That’s the whole point, the LOCKED PRICES, for the LOCKED-IN OIL.

    Who actually has taken advantage here of the other? No one has been taken advantage of. Oil prices sometimes rise, and they sometimes fall. No one can predict it. When they fall, Iran wins because China pays a set price. When oil prices rise, Chins wins – because of the same reason. In the end, after 25 years, who has won, China or Iran? It all balances out.

    THAT is why it’s win/win – both sides see it as balancing out.

    Iran has not and will not pay single financial cent to China (because they didn’t “borrow” any MONEY they have to pay back); what they promise to send is OIL, fully bought and paid for by the Chinese. And the entire agreement arrived at with ZERO threats (economic or military) of any kind.

    The main thing is, the Chinese don’t use coercion or threats to get their way. If you are threatened by someone else (not by China), as Iran is by the West, then that might be used as negotiating leverage. Chinese are businessmen. It’s pure business.

    So what? Did anyone expect China or Iran to be stupid or naive? They agreed with no threats involved, end of story.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @d dan
    , @showmethereal
  77. anonymous[116] • Disclaimer says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Keep also in mind that in the war of 1971 India defeated Pakistan in merely 13 days. Pakistan is no match for India, and the Pakistanis know it.

    That was 50 years ago. Living in past, are we?

    Last year, India took the cover of darkness to attack… and kill some trees.

    Pakistan attacked in broad daylight, taking India completely by surprise, shot down at least 1 Indian fighter jet, perhaps 2, took an Indian PoW (what the Orange-utan would call a loser), and all the Indians could do was run helter-skelter, like plucked chicken, and shoot down their own helicopter with 6 casualties.

    Keep up, asshole.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  78. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Kashmir is a fascinating case – the most spectacular landscape and the most beautiful women in Asia; the potential is …
    Why no referendum? My tuppence:
    – The temple of Swami Shankara makes it a “cradle” thing to Hindu nationalists – comparable to Kosovo for the Serbs.
    – The drive northwards has been a constant since independence (misguided but clear).

  79. Malla says:
    @Philip Owen

    Very true. The truth is Philip, most have no idea about the Raj except bullshit trope and propaganda spread by the Marxists.
    The Indian Civil Service examinations of the British Raj were some of the most difficult and demanding examination taken at its time, earlier by Britishers and later by both Indians and Britishers. Only the Indonesian administration examinations for the Dutch Empire came close.
    For example, nowhere, except perhaps in the British Indian Civil Service, was as much care taken in the selection of officials as in the Dutch East Indies. All appointments to the higher administrative posts in Java followed a rigid examination in the history, geography, and ethnology of the Dutch East Indies, the political and social institutions of the native Indonesians, and in the Malay and Javanese languages. The officials who were to be charged with the administration of justice would have had to hold the degree of Doctor of Laws from one of the Dutch universities, and in addition pass examinations in Islamic law and local common law.

    Also it was the British Raj which ended slavery & feudalism and started modernizing India which led to much increase in rights of the common man than anytime in India’s history. It freed Hindus from Islamic tyranny, Muslims from Sikh rule and lower caste Hindus from the tyranny of the Upper castes especially Brahmins.
    The Japanese Empire did the same in Korea, freed the Korean commoners from the rule of the Yangbangs.
    Alleyne Ireland had written a book about the modernization of Korea and improvement of the lives of ordinary Koreans during the Japanese Empire period. The book was named
    THE NEW KOREA
    http://yeoksa.blog.fc2.com/blog-category-57.html
    Great Read.

    • Replies: @KA
    , @showmethereal
  80. d dan says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    “Are you Indian? The only news sources saying this are all Indian. “

    Very astute observation, Astuteobservor II. (Is there Astuteobservor I – I wish there are more commenter like you?)

    That explains why he is so excited in the other thread about banning of Tik Tok by US. It also explains why he does not find the persecutions of Huawei morally repugnant.

    Contrary to what many of Indians’ wishful thinking – Indians do NOT beat Chinese in IT field. Only the white people is dumb enough to give many of their CEO’s positions in Silicon Valley to Indians. If given a fair regulatory and non-discriminatory environment, I believe Tik Tok, Alibaba, Huawei, Tencent, etc could beat Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Twitter, Google anywhere in the world today.

    • Replies: @Tor597
    , @Really No Shit
  81. Malla says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    One would assume that due to the rise of Hindu nationalism combined with the bad press coverage (putting aside whether the coverage is fair or not) would make Iranians look at India with a not so positive mindset.

    Very good point. Traditionally India was quite popular with Iran as well. A lot of Iranian students in my city. I had dated an Iranian once but she was appalled by the low level of hygiene in India, her idea of India was from Bollywood movies. LOL.
    Yes you are right, with rising Hindu fundamentalism, many Iranians will not look to India that favourably. But Iran has a Islamic theocracy so they will have to look in the mirror too. Hindutva is just India becoming itself again. It is decolonisation and recolonisation in action both at the same time. Decolonisation of Anglo/British Raj which had suppressed both Hindutva and Islamic fundamentalist forces from getting out of control and thus keeping the place together. It were milder version of these Hindutva forces of the Indian National Congress which drove the Indian “Independence Struggle”. As the British were inevitably going to leave India, Jinnah the father of Pakistan and a very smart man realised that India would inevitably “go native” and thus Hindutva and so he wanted out with Pakistan for Muslims. Besides he was afraid that Hindus being a majority would seek retribution for centuries of Islamic brutality and plunder. Also as Angloness reduced in Pakistan too, Pakistan too went more Islamic fundamentalist (from the 1947 days).
    Recolonisation because the Hindu fundamentalists are close to Zion, ZOG, NWO and Israel.
    Thus decolonisation from earlier Angloness and new recolonisation with Jewishness. This was planned nearly a century ago and hence the British Raj had to go, had to be “dissolved” from the inside by Zio forces for this eventuality.

    why does India *really* not hold a referendum in Kashmir?

    LOL, very simple, we fear losing Kashmir either becoming an independent state or as a part of Pakistan. India claims (correctly or not) that Pakistan changed the demographics of what it calls POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), the region of Kashmir under Pakistani control which Pakistan calls Azad Kashmir (Free Kashmir). India claims that Pakistan filled the region with non Kashmiris Pakistanis to change the demographics since as per the UN, both India and Pakistan would have to take their forces out of Kashmir and the combined state would get to have a referendum. Also Kashmir state includes Jammu which is majority Hindu and would want to be part of India and Ladakh which is a place where the population is not Caucasoid Kashmiris but Mongoloid Tibetan like Buddhist Ladakhis. Kashmir was a princely state once. Only recently did the Indian Govt gave the Ladakhis their own State (well Union Territory, directly ruled from the center with less rights than a Federal State). But at least the Ladakhis are out of this Hindu Muslim mess.

    Anyways India does not have a good history of honouring referendums. It did not do so with an European power like France, why do you think it will with Kashmiris?

    In 1948, just after when India left the British Empire, France agreed to let the inhabitants of her small possessions in India settle their own fate by a referendum and ChandanNagore in Bengal went peacefully to India in this way. In other settlements other methods were employed. Forces favouring union with India seized the French Indian territory of Yanam on the 14th June, 1954, and a month later France gave up the French Indian territory of Mahe ‘to avoid grave incidents.’ In 1951 the elections in the territory of Pondicherry for the Representative Assembly returned a majority for the Socialist Party which advocated continued affiliation with France but Indians contended that the electoral victory was engineered and that the results did not truly represent popular will. Mr. Nehru then announced that as a plebiscite would be similarly conducted he could not agree to the fate of Pondicherry being settled in that fashion. As the French constitution forbids the the transfer of French territory without a referendum, deadlock would have ensued had not the Socialist Party changed its mind and advocated union with India.
    India will only allow referendum which it is sure of winning. Or it will use crooked tactics like the ones it used against the French colonies and forced them into India as it was afraid many of the French outposts especially Pondicherry wanted to remain with France.
    The heavy handed Indian deep State did not even respect an European power like France in referendum, why would they do so with Kashmir? Not gonna happen.

  82. Malla says:
    @KA

    When Britain destroyed a large masjid in New Delhi after 1857 and turned the main masjid into a stable ,it also destroyed numerous books and documents .

    Retribution for the mutiny. The Muslims were trying to play a game but were out-gamed by Brahmans. Thus nearly all the fault of the mutiny in British eyes fell more or less totally on the Indian Muslims and the British permanently destroyed Islamic power in India, something which even the powerful Hindu Marathas or Sikhs could not do, but always did dream of doing.
    But for the Hindu majority this was good news. After centuries of Islamic brutality and slavery and rapes, finally it happened, dream come true. Ironically the same Hindus would thank the British by being the Engine of the Indian National Congress and try driving the British out. Now knowing Islamic power in India was permanently broken and we were the majority, we wanted the British out so we could rule. Jinnah realised this and this is one more reason why he wanted out with Pakistan.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
  83. Anon[924] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Yanis Varoufakis on Chinese ‘Imperialism’

    • Thanks: Erebus, Mefobills
  84. KA says:
    @Malla

    Rs 80 million in Gold and jewelry was stolen from Murshidbad of Siraj Uddhula by the company with the help of Raja Nabakrsihna Dev He housed Clive. Bribed Hastings for a quid pro quo He received money from Burdawn district. From the book : The Corporation That Changed the World: How the East India Company Shaped the Modern Multinational.By
    Nick Robbins.

    White to local ratio was much smaller in India compared to Ireland until 1940s . British co-opted the upper caste Hindus . Ali Burdi Khan ,predecessor of Siraj Ud Dhulla actually created the landed gentry composing mostly of local Hindus by donation of lands and offices and privileged access to trades . He was betting against the local Mughal elite from mounting any resistance to him

    These land lords ,officials and tradesmen betrayed Bengal at Plassey .

    Mountbatten systemically with help of Nehru Ghadhi Patel destroyed the possibility of a true federal secular country free of casteism . Ambedkar regretted giving in to the manipulation of Ghandhi until his death .

    Education to Tilak or Ghandhi was only for the upper caste . They wrote articles justifying the age old discrimination in education . Education was only open to common folks during the buddhist times . That is still a reality .

    “Before 1800 there was no health care existed in England and there no difference between a folk healer and learned doctor . https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1163/j.ctv4cbhdf.18 from History of the Opium Problem: The Assault on the East, ca. 1600-1950 Hans Derks

    In 1750 India accounted for 25 % of manufacturing comapred to less than 2 % of British share of the world output . Bengal was called “Paradise of Nations” by Auronjeb https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt183pcr6.11 If Mughal did such a bad of a job ,how did Britain ’s imports from India comprise of textile and medicines ? How did they organize such a manufacturing base without peace cooperation and education ?

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  85. @Malla

    Very good point. Traditionally India was quite popular with Iran as well. A lot of Iranian students in my city. I had dated an Iranian once but she was appalled by the low level of hygiene in India, her idea of India was from Bollywood movies. LOL.

    I spend a fair bit of time on Twitter, I have noticed the preponderance of Hindu nationalists on “Western Twitter” when it comes to anti-Islam posts and these people strike me as not too bright, usually they just repeat the same old nonsense and end up embarrassing themselves, another thing I have noticed is the Hindu nationalist support for Israel, which in addition to the anti-Islam stuff also alienates a lot of (fairly secular) Muslims from the Middle East as well as those of us who know about how Israel operates and what it does in the Occupied Territories.

    India should really do what China does with its internet and create a great firewall, to stop its netizens embarrassing the country on the internet. India being the butt of jokes online seems to stem from the conduct of its internet users, rather than its poverty.

    LOL, very simple, we fear losing Kashmir either becoming an independent state or as a part of Pakistan. India claims (correctly or not) that Pakistan changed the demographics of what it calls POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), the region of Kashmir under Pakistani control which Pakistan calls Azad Kashmir (Free Kashmir).

    Kashmir: Paths to Peace – https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/papers/view/109338#

    This is a fairly old survey and due to the rise of Hindu nationalism would likely yield very different results were it to be conducted today, but from what I can tell, there only seem to be a handful of problematic districts from the Indian perspective, why not just give these to Pakistan? The Ladakh and Jammu regions seem to be happy to be with India, while the Kashmir valley is where the dissent and militancy lies.

    Creating an international border here and ending militancy would be of great value for India and it would mean an end to the conflict with Pakistan, unless I am mistaken and Pakistan will only accept all or nothing?

    I suppose the real question is, is there any value in the Kashmir valley for India and Pakistan as far as resources or strategic implications go? There is a water sharing treaty but to the best of my knowledge both countries have honoured it even in times of conflict, so it seems unlikely that India would be scared of Pakistan cuting off India’s water supply. Indian armed forces are stretched, why do they insist on stationing 500,000-700,000 security personnel to occupy an area where the people quite clearly don’t want them? Imagine the money and headache they could save by not having to do this!

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  86. @nokangaroos

    I think Iranian women are the best in Asia personally, but each to their own.

    I will agree that it is a spectacular landscape, I actually only became familiar with it in the aftermath of the Christchurch mosque shooting, turns out the attacker had been to Pakistani Kashmir and so I decided to check out the photos out of curiosity and the place is stunning. The scenery itself is worth fighting for from an emotional perspective.

    But to address the point, Hindu nationalists have onto recently come into power, India was in the grip of the secular and some say pro-Muslim India National Congress party for most of its independent history, the temple itself would not have been an issue, Pakistan would likely have granted passage to devotees as they did with Sikhs and their most holy place recently. The white reason there is so much hatred between Pakistan and India is because of Kashmir, otherwise they seem fairly similar culturally speaking, I know that Urdu and Hindi are very similar and the two nationalities get along fairly well in the West, what’s the point of always being on the edge of war for Kashmir?

  87. Malla says:
    @KA

    About Buddhist India , just check the history and you would find numerous examples of looting and pillage and destruction of Buddhist centers by Brahmins -Hinduism .

    Very true, indeed many Hindu temples today are built on earlier Buddhist temples by Brahmans. And many famous Hindu god idols are actually Buddha idols converted to Hindu idols. But the Hindus faced their karma for all that they did to the Buddhists and Jains, from the Muslim invaders. Maybe God sent Muslims as retribution on the evil Brahmans and Hindus in general. But even Muslims could not destroy Brahmin power as the British did. Indeed many Muslim rulers made alliances with the smart Brahmans, their courts were full of Brahmans and mercantile baniyas. Birbal and Tansen in Emperor Akbar’s court. Brahmans alone among Hindus were exempt from the Jaziya Tax levied on non muslims Kaffirs for long periods under various Islamic rulers both the Uzbek-Mongol Mughala and earlier Turkish Delhi Sultanate.

    For all the destruction Hindus did to Buddhist sites, God sent retribution in the form of Muslims.

    Today, most of the large and important historical Hindu temples (many of them were of course built on earlier Buddhist temples) are found in southern India (Tirupati, Madurai) or in Orissa, on the eastern coast. These areas remained outside of Islamic rule for most of their history. The traditional heartland of Hinduism in the Ganges river valley (modern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar) as well as Punjab and Sindh feature no major large Hindu temples, most of which were destroyed by Muslim iconoclasm, much of which occurred in the period of the initial Muslim conquest of the region from 1000-1300 C.E. As many historians like to point out, many, if not most, Hindu temples were not destroyed, but major ones were, primarily to make an impact on Hindus. This would be akin to destroying the major cathedrals of Paris, Rome, and so on while leaving local churches intact. Many of the historic temples of major Hindu holy sites at Ayodhya, Kannauj, Mathura, Multan, Vrindavan, Varanasi, Thanesar, and Allahabad (Prayag until 1575) no longer exist. One does not have to be deeply religious or nationalistic to perceive or believe that, in a way, this state of affairs is deeply humiliating to Hinduism.

    Some of the most wanton destruction occurred during the invasions of Mahmud of Ghazni, from Afghanistan, who raided India numerous times from 1000-1030 C.E. According to a Persian historian and Indographer, Mahmud “utterly ruined the prosperity of Hindustan.” For example, the following occurred when he attacked Mathura, the city of my ancestors (My surname is Mathur, named after this city) and supposed birthplace of Hindu Lord Krishna:

    In the middle of the city there was a temple larger and finer than the rest, which can neither be described nor painted. The Sultan was of the opinion that 200 years would have been required to build it…the Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naptha and fire, and leveled with the ground.

    The case of the holy temple of Somnath on the western coast of India is especially tragic. In 1025, Mahmud sacked it for the first time. The idol of Lord Somnath was full of precious jewels and gems all looted by the invaders. It was destroyed in 1299 by Allauddin Khilji of Delhi. After being rebuilt, it was destroyed again in 1395 by the Muslim governor of Gujarat. In 1665, another reincarnation of the temple was destroyed by the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Remember the Brahman priests of Somnath Temple had allowed the pre Islamic Arab traders to build a small temple shrine to the pagan Arab God Hubbal.

    Anyways, the Brits played their part in trying to restore this great Somnath Temple. in 1782-83 AD, Hindu Maratha king Mahadaji Shinde, victoriously brought back three silver gates from Lahore after defeating Mahmud Shah Abdati, to Somnath. After refusal from priests of Gujarat and the then ruler Gaekwad to put them back on Somnath temple, these silver gates were placed in the temples of Ujjain.
    In 1842, Edward Law, 1st Earl of Ellenborough issued his the Proclamation of the Gates, in which he ordered the British Indian Army in Afghanistan to return via Ghazni and bring back to India the sandalwood gates from the tomb of Mahmud of Ghazni in Ghazni, Afghanistan. These were believed to have been taken by Mahmud from Somnath while sacking the temple. There was a debate in the House of Commons in London in 1843 on the question of the gates of the temple. After much crossfire between the British Government and the opposition, the gates were uprooted and brought back to India from Afghanistan in triumph.

    There are similar stories of prominent Hindu temples being demolished by Muslim rulers. Aurangzeb destroyed many temples as well, one of which was of particular note. What was probably the holiest temple is all of Hinduism, Kashi Vishwanath Temple (built on an earlier Buddhist pagoda) in Varanasi, was demolished on his orders in 1669, and a mosque built on its spot. So it went from Buddhist pagoda to Hindu Temple to Islamic Mosque. The list goes on and encompasses much of India.

    Kashi Vishwanath Temple was one of the most famous Hindu temples dedicated to Lord Shiva and is located in Varanasi, the Holiest existing Place of Hindus, where at least once in life a Hindu is expected to do a pilgrimage, and if possible, also pour the remains (ashes) of cremated ancestors here on the River Ganges. The main deity is known by the name Vishwanatha or Vishweshwara meaning the Ruler of the universe. The temple town that claims to be the oldest oldest living city in India. However, the original Jyotirlinga of Kashi Vishwanath is not available. The old temple was destroyed as a result of the Mughal invasion. Historical records suggest that it was destroyed many times by Muslim rulers.

    A choice target for Muslim invaders, the prominent edifice was destroyed in 1194, then rebuilt 20 years later, only to be demolished again in the 15th century. Under the reign of the unusually tolerant Akbar in the 16th century, it was rebuilt once again; but Akbar’s grandson, the 6th Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, destroyed it yet again in 1669, building Gyanvapi Mosque in its place. Even today the pillars and the structure of the original temple can be clearly seen. The present new temple was erected a few feet from the mosque in 1780 by Maratha queen Ahilya Bai Holkar. The gold roof was donated in 1839 by Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the Sikh ruler of Punjab.

    Aurangzeb’s demolition of the temple was motivated by the rebellion of local zamindars (landowners) associated with the temple, some of whom may have facilitated the escape of the Maratha King Shivaji. Jai Singh I, the grandson of the temple’s builder Raja Man Singh, was widely believed to have facilitated Shivaji’s escape from Agra. The temple’s demolition was intended as a warning to the anti-Mughal factions and Hindu religious leaders in the city.

    As described by Jadunath Sarkar, on 9 April 1669, Aurangzeb issued a general order “to demolish all the schools and temples of the infidels and to put down their religious teaching and practices.” His destroying hand now fell on the great shrines that commanded the veneration of the Hindus all over India—such as the second temple of Somnath, the Vishwanath temple of Benares and the Keshav Rai temple of Mathura.
    For once example,
    The structure of Alamgir Mosque standing atop the original site of Bindu-Madhav temple in Varanasi. The Alamgir Mosque in Varanasi was constructed by Mughal Emperor Aurnagzeb built atop the ancient 100 ft high Bindu Madhav (Nand Madho) Temple after its destruction in 1682.

    Of course, most people for the part just lived ordinary lives and paid taxes to whomever ruled them. Hinduism persisted in many parts of India, and remained dominant in rural India, where most temples remained intact. But the historical record does indeed demonstrate that major Hindu temples in urban centers were deliberately targeted by some Muslim rulers, in order to assert their power in areas of the subcontinent.

    • Replies: @KA
    , @KA
  88. d dan says:
    @Anonymous

    “Sorry, but this is really not understanding, or deliberately being deceptive about the Iran-China deal (I am trying to be kind to the poster).”

    Not surprising. They are doing their best to lie through their teeth to smear the China-Iran deal – just like they do to all Silk Road projects (e.g. debt traps, corruption, lost of sovereignty, neo-colonialism, etc.) There was also a rumor that Iran will have to give an island to China, or China will send military to occupy part of Iran, etc.

    The “fine” tradition of “we lie, we steal, we cheat” techniques of Pompeo indeed.

  89. Malla says:
    @KA

    Then we have the Rudra Mahalaya

    A ruined temple complex of Rudra Mahalaya is located at Siddhpur in the Patan district of Gujarat. Siddhpur is an ancient holy town on the banks of river Saraswati. The town of Siddhpur derives its name from the ruler of Gujarat, named Siddhraj Jaisinh, who built a magnificent Rudra Mahalaya temple in the 12th century AD.

    The construction of Rudra Mahalaya was started in 943 AD by Mularaja Solanki and was completed in 1140 AD by Siddharaj Jaisinh. The temple was dismantled by Allauddin Khilji during 1410-1444 and later Ahmed Shah I demolished this temple and converted some part of it into the conjoint mosque. In the 10th century Mularaja Solanki, the founder of the Solanki dynasty of Gujarat, began the construction of Rudra Mahalay temple. As per the local folklore, Muladev’s crimes hung heavily on his mind during his old age. To get rid of his bad deeds he built Rudra Mahalaya. However, the construction remained incomplete due to unknown reasons. Siddharaj Jaisinh established the temple complex during the 12th century and it became the prime temple complex of Siddhpur.
    In 1296 AD, Muslim Sultan Alauddin Khilji sent a strong army under Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan Jalesri who destroyed the temple complex. The temple was further demolished and the western part was converted into a mosque by Ahmed Shah I of Muzaffarid dynasty.

    We also have the Meenakshi Temple which is said to have been ransacked by Muslim invader Malik Kafur, who damaged all the ancient elements in 1310. In the 17th century, the temple was rebuilt by Hindu Arya Natha Mudaliyar, who was the Prime Minister of the first Nayak of Madurai.

    Also the Modhera Sun Temple, built around the 10th century under Solankis. The Solankis (maybe of Scythian/Saca descant) were worshippers of the sun as they called themselves Suryavanishis or the descendants of the Sun God. Hindu King Bhimdev had built this temple in the 11th century dedicating it to Surya, the Sun God.

    The temple was plundered by Islamic foreign Invader Mahmud Ghazni who took the original idol that was carved in gold, which was then housed in a deep pit covered with gold coins. The shrine was eventually destroyed by Muslim Sultan Alauddin Khilji before it was restored recently.

    Not to forget The Martand Sun Temple, Kashmir

    One of the oldest temple ruins, it is now called “Shaitan ki Gufa” (Devil’s cave) by Kashmiri Muslims. It was part of the Karkot Empire (A Naga Kingdom) which was in continuous strife with Gandhara’s Suparna (A Garuda Kingdom).

    It was made by King Lalitaditya around 5th Century A.D. and it was destroyed by Muslim ruler Sikander Butshikan. It is believed that it was so strongly built that it took many days for its destruction. The temple now lies in ruins near the district of Anantnag.

  90. d dan says:
    @Really No Shit

    “I already did mine … did you, freeloader?”

    I usually don’t reply to this dumb asshole troll. But really love his “already did mine” reply. Must be such a big “sacrifices” and satisfactions for doing his time, going to so many places in the world to bomb and wreck so many weak countries, causing so much miseries to so many third world peoples. And yet still dare not shoot at the Chinese to stop the “yellow perils” he fears so much.

    Sounds like an unmitigated loser. Make me proud and honored to be a freeloader to his “sacrifices”. Hahahahaha.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  91. Tor597 says:
    @d dan

    White people give CEO positions to Indians because Indians know their place in a caste system. Their role is mainly to be administers of whatever the all white board wants them to do.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @Rdm
  92. Alden says:
    @Malla

    Sorry to be provincial. I didn’t mean the thuggees. I meant the Gypsies. They’re called gypsies because when they first arrived in Europe they claimed to be Christian Egyptian refugees from Muslim prosecution. Actually, they were just a criminal caste who left N India when the Muslims cracked down on their crimes.

    • Replies: @Malla
  93. @d dan

    You, sirrah, are a useless interloper atop being a filthy panda and a dirty yellow rat combined… did you not get your free meal today at the local high school? Free Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, East Turkmenistan and most of all Tibet perhaps then you’ll be let off the hook, otherwise, like the wet market cadavers, China is dead meat and the world is going to be the grinder!

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  94. KA says:
    @Malla

    1 Hindu Nationalism: An Oxymoron Donna M. Wulff. Assoc Professor of Religious Studies Brown University The Brown Journal of World Affairs Vol. 4, No. 2 (Summer/Fall 1997), pp. 163-176 (14 pages :

    “Muslims invaders entered the subcontinent in waves beginning early in eighth century. Although some came as conquerors, most appear not to have targeted Hindu temples anymore than some of the Hindu kings ,who plundered Hindu as well as Jian temples for loot. Even the Mughal emperor Aurungzeb considered an iconoclast for destroying at least two major Hindu temples ,made grants to other Hindu temples as well as substantial donations to Brahmins. Such grants to Hindu temples are recorded throughout the period”.

    2T he Origin of Zamindari Estates in Bengal
    B. H. Baden-Powell
    The Quarterly Journal of Economics
    Vol. 11, No. 1 (Oct., 1896), pp. 36-69 (34 pages)
    Published by: Oxford University Press https://www.jstor.org/stable/1881726 Mughal rule did not change the equation between the rulers and the ruled that was a feature before the arrival of the Muslims as rulers in Bengal ( Bihar Orissa Bengal ). Some Hindu landlords were slain Most just accepted to be part of the new reality . Life in villages and the urban areas did not see anything new taht it had not experienced or seen

    3 Durga Puja started during the reign of Akbar in Bengal

  95. @Malla

    Looks as if you dot-heads were terribly oppressed by the Muslims and to forgive them would be sin but just as the West is paying them back with the same coin, perhaps, you guys should repay those bastards in kind, starting with the ungrateful and useless converts of Cashmere, Pakis and even the black Bengalees … of course, turning the other cheek is optional but it may encourage the beastly incorrigible lot that they are.

    • Troll: showmethereal
  96. @d dan

    What kind of name is Alibaba for the Chinaman? It should “Forty Thieves” which would be more fitting to the truer nature of the Chinese robbers … every last one of you is one to the core!

  97. @Really No Shit

    Free Amelika. Free Australia, etc
    .

    {24 June 1995
    The Editor
    South China Morning Post
    GPO Box 47
    Hong Kong

    [MORE]

    .
    Sir,
    .
    I applaud your editorial of 22 June, in which you exposed the insidious manner in which the Japanese parliament and government had glossed over the crimes and genocides the Japanese Imperial Army had committed against the peoples of East Asia.
    .
    Your effort is to be commended and I hope you will extend it and apply it in an impartial and unbiased manner.
    .
    The crimes of Japan during World War II is but one of the crimes against humanity in recent history and it is not even the most serious.
    .
    Far more sinister are those committed by the whites against the non-whites, with the racial genocides carried out in America and Australia being the most systematic and thorough.
    .
    These are the most hideous crimes against humanity- surpassing, in scale and thoroughness, even Hitler’s organized pogrom of the Jews and the Slavs. But while the whites react with anger and indignation to the massacres of their own kind, they continue to glorify and celebrate their genocidal achievements when their victims are non-Europeans.
    .
    We all should now wake up to the fact that the regimes thus established are illegal, immoral and illegitimate. For the sake of justice and legality, these criminal regimes must be abolished. Only then can a just “New World Order” prevail.
    .
    The South China Morning Post, having so bravely exposed the lies and deceit of the Japanese, should now take up this new task with added courage and vigour, and thus set a moral journalistic standard for the rest of the “Free Press” to follow.
    .
    Sincerely
    .

    **Censored by “The Free Press”, Refused publication**}
    .

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  98. KA says:
    @Malla

    1 In all the Mughal regions royal endowments to temples and Brahmins continued . Brahmins continued to be prominent landowners and state officials

    –INDIA And SOUTH ASIA A Short Story by David Ludden ( Prof of History at U Penn )

    2
    In 1870, the Oudh government press published a report on Ayodhya-Faizabad titled ‘The Historical Sketch of Tahsil Fyzabad, Zillah Fyzabad’. Written by the then officiating commissioner and settlement officer of the area, P. Carnegy, among other things, the report listed the places of religious significance in Ayodhya, giving pride of place to the Janmasthan. The report, which was written by Carnegy in 1867-68, recorded several things about the temple: it was 166 years old and had been built by Mahant Ramdas; and the land on which it stood, measuring over an acre, had been given as a grant by a zamindar, Mir Masum Ali. https://thewire.in/communalism/ayodhya-ram-mandir-trust-janmasthan-temple-demolished

    3 At least Ayoddha of UP once excavated from 1966 to 1978 ,not show evidence of existence of any Hindu temple . This site was abandoned by human settlers around 7 AD which also coincided with decline and eventual disappearance of Buddishm form N India .
    4 https://thewire.in/history/ayodhya-dispute-buddhist-history-supreme-court

    I agree with you on the most counts . The problem is that the current BJP RSS has succeeded in rewriting the history both grossly and also openly presenting muslim period as iconoclastic ,anti Hindu religion and throughly oppressive exploitative who destroyed India . This is where the dominant narrative lies . It is dangerous because the mindset leaves muslim with a label of being alien ,unworthy, and always a suspect . This position has largely unfortunately succeeded in growing roots in Hindu consciousness .

  99. @Astuteobservor II

    Both Indian and US sources suggest this, and we all know Chinese sources won’t confirm it because it is an unspeakable humiliation to them. Everyone in China knows it’s true though.

    In August, China arrested a neitizen for spreading “rumours” related to the Galwan clash and PLA deaths. He was arrested for writing that poor quality military vehicles manufactured by Dongfeng Off-road Company resulted in the deaths of the PLA soldiers.[307] His arrest was noted in Chinamil.com (a Chinese Ministry of Defence website).[308] A News18 report said that a number of voices, a growing “murmur”, from the Chinese diaspora, showing dissent online has grown.

    Poor pro-China trolls, telling themselves for years that China was rising and gonna take over the world, only to see the Indians destroy their dream with sticks and stones. It must be psychologically devastating to see it end like this, especially with the global COVID-19 lockdowns, the swine flu, and yeah the chip ban, greatly affecting China’s economy.

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    , @denk
  100. Mefobills says:
    @Really No Shit

    but we’re still not talking about handing over the power to a new hegemon, i.e. China.

    I don’t like it either.

    But, let’s face facts. The wall street finance class exported jobs and technology to China, to then get some of that sweet wage arbitrage.

    They sold out America’s patrimony, and there was no downside to them. Meanwhile, hollowed out former middle class Americans, many are checking out with opiods. And of course, China ships over opiates in the U.S. mail.

    It is a two step shuffle, finance capitalists selling us down the river, and industrial capitalists in China saying thank you very much. We appreciate the Patrimony of the ages you gifted us, so we can monetize it.

    Housecleaning begins at home. The internal enemy is to be much more feared than the external.

  101. @edward manfredonia

    There has also been a tremendous increase in the persecution of Christians in India since BJP and RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) member Narendra Modi was elected and reelected Prime Minister. The RSS and BJP believe in “Hindu unity”, meaning everything and everyone that isn’t Hindu must be removed by force.

    This has resulted in Christians (particularly those who have left Hinduism to become Christians) being beaten, raped, murdered, assaulted by family members, arrested on false charges and being put in prison along with Christians’ water supplies being poisoned, the burning of Bibles, the killing of pastors and the destruction of churches.

    This is not to say that there hasn’t been Hindu persecution of Christians in the past but it’s really gotten bad now with the growth and intolerance of “Hindu unity”.

  102. Daemon says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Yes, because we all know the losing side in a skirmish is the side that takes prisoners.

    What a moron.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @JohnPlywood
  103. @Mefobills

    How foolish are the members of this financial clique though? They could have chosen to enrich themselves and society with surplus value from industry. In the long run, non-European entities would never have caught up, never mind surpassed European entities in high-technology fields without the Europeans willfully handing over their expertise.

    Instead they chose to take the short-term high while Chinese companies grew to such heights that now America is having to engage in protectionism to stop its own companies from going down the toilet (so much for liberal trade, I guess it’s all fun and games when you dominate). Was it really worth it gaining cheap profits by moving iPhone manufacturing abroad, all so the clever Chinese could perfect the art of smartphone manufacturing and create their own competitive brands like Huawei which now threaten Western market share?

    Then again, much like our immigration policy, our trade policy has been one which in the past could only come about after a military defeat, our countries are flooded by ethnic outsiders all while becoming dumping grounds for Chinese goods, a really sad state of affairs, or maybe we did lose a war in a humiliating manner and many of our people just don’t realise it…

    • Agree: Mefobills
  104. d dan says:
    @Daemon

    “Yes, because we all know the losing side in a skirmish is the side that takes prisoners.”

    And not just ordinary *soldier* prisoners. Out of the 10 prisoners, there were 2 Majors and 2 Captains -including the highest commander in charge of the whole operation. And among the 20 deaths, there was also at least one officer. Furthermore, 17 of the 20 deaths were due to lack of medical care and overnight exposure to the cold – a true sign of the “winning” side for India.

    “What a moron.”

    Many Indians are so dumb that they don’t even know when China is trying to save their “face” by not releasing casualty figure on China’s side, and to allow their government to de-escalate the war rhetoric. This is the adversary’s level of “intelligence” that China has to deal with. Sigh.

    • Replies: @Daemon
  105. Anonymous[118] • Disclaimer says:

    “so much for liberal trade, I guess it’s all fun and games when you dominate”

    The chinese market has enormous barriers to entry. The US is the only side that permits “liberal trade” whatever that means.

    “all so the clever Chinese could perfect the art of smartphone manufacturing ”

    You can fix this statement with sed -i s/perfect/steal/g.

  106. @JohnPlywood

    I won’t be wasting my time refuting non existing retarded points in your comment.

    But just FYI, there is nothing wrong with you being an Indian.

  107. @Mefobills

    Tech transfer is a myth, propaganda.

    There is a Paris agreement that limits any and all tech sales to China by a minimum of two generations.

    You guys needs to understand this point to understand China.

    • Replies: @Ghan-buri-Ghan
    , @Mefobills
  108. Daemon says:
    @d dan

    The problem with the Indians isn’t a lack of intelligence per se (although that is indeed a pressing issue for some of the lower castes), but has to do with the average Indian’s intense inferiority complex coupled with an absolutely disproportional amount of pride/hubris compared to their actual achievements. This is a highly toxic combination.

    The human brain has certain defense mechanisms in place to prevent ego pain and when reality intrudes and introduces information that goes counter to our beliefs, this creates cognitive dissonance. If the cognitive dissonance is severe enough it can actually cause pain, and people tend to lash out when they’re in pain. This is usually what happens when you see people ‘shooting the messenger’. It’s a clear sign they’ve gotten under their skin and hurt them in some deep way. The result is that most normal people choose to disengage with topics that hurt them.

    The problem with hindutva Indians is that their humongous ego forces them to constantly seek out news and topics on the internet with a high probability of hurting them, with the expectation that they be good news. They’ve constructed such a distorted view of reality for themselves (Superpower 2020, Akhand Bharat and other nonsense that they have absolutely no realistic way of achieving) that when reality pushes back and disrupts their little fantasy, they generally have a meltdown and make a scene on the internet. It’d be pitiful if the little anklebiters weren’t so damn annoying.

  109. @bomag

    Nonsense… Westerners wouldn’t have scientific experiments nor even algebra… The west wouldn’t even have chivalry if not for 4 centuries of the Islamic age. Don’t let your racism get in the way

  110. @No Friend Of The Devil

    what??? china never stopped buying iranian oil. trump’s team showed satellite shots of the ships exchanging oil at sea… China basically said “yeah… so what? we don’t agree with your sanctions”

  111. Malla says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I spend a fair bit of time on Twitter, I have noticed the preponderance of Hindu nationalists on “Western Twitter” when it comes to anti-Islam posts and these people strike me as not too bright, usually they just repeat the same old nonsense a….India being the butt of jokes online seems to stem from the conduct of its internet users, rather than its poverty.

    Ya, about 97% of Hindu fundamentalist online (called BJP IT cell–paid by the BJP parties) are not too bright and most of them are low IQ buffoons. They are like the libtard buffoons of the West. They spread B.S. history via social media and we call it “Whatsapp university”. The BJp and Hindu findamantalists pay these folks to write their B.S. throuhout social media, to attack anybody who attacks Hindutva. Like your Israeli or Chinese CCP online army.
    Ironically, in India it are the liberals who are the sensible folks while in the West it is the exact opposite, the far right/ nationalists/ National Socialists. Though I must add that the liberals at times tend to get too carried away in their anti-Hinduness and piss off Hindus. unfortunately the deep state of India is right winged while the deep state of the West is more Leftist/Cultural Marxist.
    Muslims fundamentalists types are a mixed bunch with the lower stratas being low IQ buffoon thugs (pusing Sharia in the UK/Europe, Rohingya thugs in Myanmar) too but there are some sensible folk among some of their learned men who understand how the world works, far more than Hindu fundamentalists. Men like Dr. Ishrar Ahmed. I think since Islam is a religion is a more spread religion than Hinduism they have better understanding of the world’s games.

    There is a water sharing treaty but to the best of my knowledge both countries have honoured it even in times of conflict, so it seems unlikely that India would be scared of Pakistan cuting off India’s water supply. Indian armed forces are stretched, why do they insist on stationing 500,000-700,000 security personnel to occupy an area where the people quite clearly don’t want them? Imagine the money and headache they could save by not having to do this!

    I do not know, both sides do not want to give an inch. To understand kashmir, you must have to read Jayprakash Narayan. And Kashmir is not the only problem, Kashmiris get more attantion because of the support for their cause by a State, Pakistan. There are similar probelems in the Indian North East who never wanted to be part of India, but India forced them. And crushed their resistance. India, a poor country spent a lot of money and resources in crushing the North East folks militarily.

    ——————
    Sir Alan Burns writes in his book
    BTW Nehru= Indian freedom fighter from British rule and first Prime Minister of India.

    THE INDIAN ATTITUDE
    Among the most severe critics of ‘colonialism’ are the representatives of India, who maintain that they speak with recent experience of colonial status and can therefore understand better than others the disadvantages from which dependent peoples suffer. Indians tend to regard themselves as champions of the under-developed countries and are opposed to ‘colonialism’, and in pursuing this line seem to lecture other countries rather than offer constructive criticisms. India’s own conduct since she gained her independence does not perhaps altogether entitle her to criticize the ‘imperialist’ attitude of the older colonial Powers. An American writer considers India’s performance as ‘inconsistent behaviour for an outstanding champion of self-determination and anti-imperialism’.

    ….snip….

    It should not be forgotten that India also has groups of inhabitants which, under the definition used by the Indians might fairly be regarded as ‘colonial peoples’. There are, for example the Nagas and other ‘Scheduled Tribes’ which in all include over twenty million persons.
    …snip….

    In 1949 the Naga people appealed to the United Nations for protection from Indian invasion. The Appeal stated that ‘during the British Rule in India there was no outside interference in any way in the form of our existence and in the system of our administration which was entirely managed by our people’.
    And again:
    ‘The real fact about our relations with India is that she was unknown to us until the other day, when the British withdrew from our border. We can understand that India is badly in want of land…but at the same time we do not consider that our freedom, the smallness of our country and its geographical contiguity with India’s border constitute an obligation on our part to submit our independence and the means of our existence in favour of her landless and starving millions’

    …snip…

    In March, 1952, a delegation from the Naga National Council appealed to Mr. Nehru to allow the Nagas to form a separate sovereign State, but the answer was that the demand was ‘completely unwise, impractical and in-acceptable'(2)
    …snip…

    It is reported that in July 1955 India had appealed to Burma for help in crushing the Naga headhunters, who have established their own republic on the border between the two countries. Indian troops and policemen have been authorized to shoot to kill in their campaign against the headhunters (3), and there has been severe fighting. In March 1956 it was officially reported that fifteen Nagas had been killed in clashed with Indian troops (4). The Nagas maintain that they are fighting if their independence.

    (2) – Hindustan Times of 12th July, 1952
    (3) – The New York Times of 26th July, 1955
    (4) – The Times of 22nd March, 1956. A Naga member of the Central Indian Parliament recently stated that the troops sent to quell the uprising have burned four fifths of the Naga villages and have treated the rebels with excessive severity.

  112. @anonymous

    A brief skirmish is not a war. Such skirmishes can be “won” by the weaker party, but that says nothing about the capacity to win an all-out war. India is in all respects better armed than Pakistan, and of course because of its size has far more strategic depth than Pakistan. Why has Allah’s favored country on the Indian sub-continent still not “liberated” Kashmir? Or is Allah perhaps not “almighty” after all?

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  113. @Anonymous

    Great rebuttal… And yes the Chinese are simply business people. They host Sino-Arab summits and make agreements with the Saudis and UAE while also making deals with Qatar and Iran. They help Saudis and Iranians with nuclear energy at the same time. They do military drills with Saudis one quarter and Iranians the next quarter. Strictly business – no ganging up on anyone.

  114. Malla says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Anyways coming back to JP or Jayprakash Narayan, who was a popular Indian politician and his views on Kashmir. ironically modi and the BJP gang respect JP a lot as the BJP branched out from the earlier Janta Party which opposed the Congress in the past. But of course they do not follow what he preached on Kashmir.
    So who is this JP?

    Jayprakash Narayan: The Man of the People, revolutionary Indian leader, extremely popular among the masses, also known “Lok Nayak”
    He was from my caste, UP Kayastha.
    Jayaprakash Narayan famous as Lok Nayak (Hindi for ‘The People’s Leader’), was an Indian independence activist, theorist, and political leader. He is also known as the “Hero of Quit India Movement” and he is remembered for leading the mid-1970s opposition against Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, for whose overthrow he had called for a “total revolution”.
    He sez

    ““The Kashmir question has plagued this country for very many years. It has cost us a great deal materially & spiritually. We profess democracy but rule by force in Kashmir. Unless we have auto-suggested ourselves into believing that the general elections have expressed the will of the people.
    That problem exists not because Pakistan wants to grab Kashmir but because there is a deep and widespread political discontent among the people. The people of India might be kept in the dark about the true state of affairs in the valley. But every chancellery in New Delhi knows the truth.”

    From
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/why-we-must-listen-to-jayaprakash-narayan-on-kashmir/story-1ESKtjC4GSm0kzrGumhcYO.html
    Why we must listen to Jayaprakash Narayan on Kashmir Hindustan Times
    JP pressed for justice in Kashmir continuously through the 1960s and 1970s. He did so when Nehru was prime minister, when Shastri was prime minister, when Indira Gandhi was prime minister.

    ‘JP’ began his talk by clearly stating that this was a dispute between ‘the government of India and the people of the state’. JP believed that Pakistan had no locus standi in Kashmir, because of its past, perfidious, actions. As he put it, ‘the real desire of the Government of Pakistan is to seize the valley. Twice they tried to capture it by force, but they failed’.

    …snip…

    But even if one put Pakistan outside the equation, the problem remained. For, said JP in 1966, ‘perhaps there is more discontent today amongst the people of the state than at any earlier time. There is more anti-India feeling among them than before’.

    How should the government react to this discontent? JP was clear that ‘it will be a suicide of the soul of India, if India tried to suppress the Kashmiri people by force’. Rather than rely on repression, what ‘the Government of India can do is go back to the 1947-53 days, that is, go back to the time when the state had acceded to India only in three subjects [i.e. Defence, Foreign Affairs, and Communications]. This would mean providing for the fullest possible autonomy’.

    …snip…
    Back in October 1966, Jayaprakash Narayan insisted that if, in Kashmir, ‘we continue to rule by force and suppress these people and crush them or change the racial or religious character of their state by colonization, or by any other means, then I think that means politically a most obnoxious thing to do’. He continued: ‘Kashmir has cost us a great deal and it is time that every one who is a patriot in this country thought seriously about a really good solution. I have already told you what I think is a really good solution’ (i.e. fullest internal autonomy).

    JP’s concern for the dignity and well-being of Kashmiris was of long-standing. Many (but not all) of his statements on the subject are contained in JP on Jammu and Kashmir, a book edited in 2005 by the late Balraj Puri, himself a scholar and democrat of conspicuous integrity.

    …snip…

    There he remarked: ‘No matter how aggressively we affirm that Kashmir‘s accession to India is final and irrevocable the world does not accept it, the “azad Kashmir” area remains under Pakistan, the cease-fire line remains, the two armies remain facing each other, the minorities in both India and Pakistan continue to live in fear, discontent in Kashmir simmers and might have to be put down by force’.

    …snip…
    JP’s letter to Mrs Gandhi continued: ’To think that we will eventually wear down the people and force them to accept at least passively the Union is to delude ourselves. That might conceivably have happened had Kashmir not been geographically located where it is. In its present location, and with seething discontent among the people, it would never be left in peace by Pakistan.’

    …snip….

    Modi and his ministers say they admire JP. But can they, will they, listen to JP on Kashmir? The discontent in the Valley is wider and deeper now than in 1966. A major change since JP’s day is the growing influence of radical Islam in the Valley. JP would have condemned this. But he would have been even more critical of the continuing repression by the Indian State.

  115. KA says:

    Can India survive a hostile Nepal , Bangladesh , China and neutral Bhutan ?
    India is pissing everybody off . Bangladesh with support of China can terminate the cross border service at a shot notice , and can prevent plane including cargoes flying from west to east . Through Nepal , China can breathe down its narrow neck that allows the land based and only connection between NE India and rest .

    NE India is at mercy of the geography that India can’t change . But other can .

    If NE India goes ,political unrest will follow without any reduction leading to Punjab , Kashmir and possibly Tamil Nadu leaving the union .That’s the worst case scenario . But a likely outcome is severe weakening of the center .

    Bashing neighbors and hating domestic minorities have earned the maximum political points BJP could have .

    Covid 19 has also been tried to get some more points but after sometime , even the worst among those fanatics could only continue to faithfully echo the argot so much

    Now economy is in a hole . No more public asset or infrastructure left for sale to donors and unemployment has soared to a level that is never seen before .

    One thing is increasing leaps and bounds is the communal hatred .

    America has made it clear that USA wants India join in new Jihad with fellow vassals ( S Korea Japan Australia New Zeland ) against China . India is not keeping its citizen informed and is lying to them .

    Even if India tries to wiggle out and follow a good neighborly policy , it will take years for the trust to build up

    But that means a fundamental change of Indian politics and acceptance of real secularism and democracy .

    • Agree: Tor597
  116. @Astuteobservor II

    Mefobills may sound intelligent or knowledgeable in some comments, but he is, at his core, a white supremacist. Thus, he cannot *cope* with China doing so much better than white people. So he has to re-hash some well-worn Kikebart or Zionhedge propaganda about technology theft, spying, and other bullshit.

    Never try to talk sense or debate with a white supremacist. They are brainwashed morons without exception, exactly the same as the leftist NPCs they pretend to oppose.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Mefobills
  117. techvet says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    aren’t our new high caste brown overlords eerily similar to our soon to be old (((white))) ones? Sheer money mindedness, deeply clannish with many being overly cliquish, obnoxious, obstinate, highly opinionated and a very high view of themselves. Plus a general disdain for the trades. Their only redeeming (if you will) quality vis-a-vis da juice is that they do not harbor an intense hatred of the European. All in all a first class parasitical class working to carve out as much as possible out of the dying carcass of what once was the United States.

  118. Malla says:
    @KA

    Rs 80 million in Gold and jewelry was stolen from Murshidbad of Siraj Uddhula by the company with the help of Raja Nabakrsihna Dev He housed Clive. Bribed Hastings for a quid pro quo He received money from Burdawn district.

    Spoils of War is common throughout history. The British won did they not? And Bengal was the richest province in India. In other parts of the country, the EIC actually lost money by conquests as the state treasuries of Indian ruler were quite empty inspite of the high taxation on the poor peasants. Also you forget that Robert Clive faced lengthy court case in London on this issue. What about Nadir Shah? What court case did he face for looting India?

    And even the EIC got far less out of India than other powers like Nadir Shah of Persia and Ahmed Shah Abdali/Durrani.

    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/essay/economic-lessons-from-the-raj
    Zaheer Masani writes
    “Much before the East India Company took over Bengal, the Marathas had ravaged the province with six plundering raids in the course of a decade, killing off hundreds of thousands and exacting huge sums in chauth from its Mughal Nawab, estimated at Rs 2.5 crore (1 crore=10 million) per annum in today’s money. It was these attacks and the inability of the feeble Mughal administration to resist them that led the Hindu business community, led by the powerful Jagat Seth banking house, to plot the British takeover of 1756-64.

    Delhi was less fortunate than Bengal and suffered devastating invasions by Iran’s Nadir Shah, followed by the Afghan Ahmad Shah Abdali. According to contemporary estimates, Nadir Shah’s sack of Delhi in 1739 extracted in one month an estimated Rs 70 crore worth of plunder, many times anything creamed off by the Company Sahib during its most rapacious years in Bengal, and a blow from which the Mughal economy never recovered. ”
    Italics are mine.

    More on Nadir Shah of Persia’s looting of Indian treasury.
    And what about Nader Shah the brave Sultan of Iran. Nadir Shah looted out of India multiple times of what the British East India Company earned in India till the mutiny. During the course of one day (March 22) 20,000 to 30,000 Indians were brutally killed by Iranian troops and as many as 10,000 women and children were taken as slaves, forcing our Indian Mughal Emperor Mohammad Shah to beg Nader Shah for mercy.

    In response, Iranian Emperor Nader Shah agreed to withdraw, but Indian Emperor Mohammad Shah paid the consequence in handing over the keys of his royal treasury, and losing even the fabled Peacock Throne to the Iranian emperor. The Peacock Throne, thereafter, served as a symbol of Iranian imperial might. It is estimated that Nader took away with him treasures worth as much as seven hundred million rupees. Among a trove of other fabulous jewels, Nader also looted the Koh-i-Noor (meaning “Mountain of Light” in Persian) and Darya-ye Noor (meaning “Sea of Light”) diamonds. The Iranian troops left Delhi at the beginning of May 1739, but before they left, he ceded back to Muhammad Shah all territories to the east of the Indus which he had overrun. The booty they had collected was loaded on 700 elephants, 4,000 camels, and 12,000 horses.

    Mountbatten systemically with help of Nehru Ghadhi Patel destroyed the possibility of a true federal secular country free of casteism . Ambedkar ….Education to Tilak or Ghandhi was only for the upper caste . They wrote articles justifying the age old discrimination in education ….That is still a reality .

    Yeah, this is true. But Nehru allowed education for all. Yeah Gandhi was a secret castist and so was Tilak. Also you forget that Ambedkar wanted British Rule to continue longer.

    “Before 1800 there was no health care existed in England and there no difference between a folk healer and learned doctor . https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1163/j.ctv4cbhdf.18 from History of the Opium Problem: The Assault on the East, ca. 1600-1950 Hans Derks

    This is super weird as Mirza Abu Taleb Khan, the Persian-Indian nobleman who was one of the first to go to Britain and write about it, wrote in his book that the English had a far superior knowledge of human anatomy and medical science than what we Hindus in Ayurveda system or even Muslims in their Unani system had.

  119. techvet says:
    @Daemon

    The problem with the Indians isn’t a lack of intelligence per se (although that is indeed a pressing issue for some of the lower castes), but has to do with the average Indian’s intense inferiority complex coupled with an absolutely disproportional amount of pride/hubris compared to their actual achievements. This is a highly toxic combination.

    Bulls eye man! If I wanted to describe many of my Indian managers and quite a few of my colleagues in a terse manner, this would be it. Perhaps this is so radically different than your average Saxon or even a general European mindset that tech has become such a toxic career for your average white male (assuming his Indian manager even wants him around. More often than not, he wants to replace you with his buddy/cousin/brother in law back in the village).

    By the way, thank you Unz for this incredible forum with true freedom of speech to be found anywhere on the “internets”. There’s a lot I’ve learned from these comments. Many are gems although there are quite a few dumb ones like thomm etc. But the overall quality is redeeming

    • Replies: @trickster
  120. Malla says:
    @KA

    In 1750 India accounted for 25 % of manufacturing comapred to less than 2 % of British share of the world output . Bengal was called “Paradise of Nations” by Auronjeb https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt183pcr6.11 If Mughal did such a bad of a job ,how did Britain ’s imports from India comprise of textile and medicines ? How did they organize such a manufacturing base without peace cooperation and education ?

    Not 25% of manufacturing byt 25% of economy which was predomianntly agricultural. And that figure is a guestimate. We also had 25% of the world’s population thanks to our rich agricultural land could support such a large population before the Industrial revolution and modern Western medicine.

    From the link of Zaheer Masani

    “Myth number two is that India declined from being an economic superpower under the Mughals to a de-industrialised colonial wasteland. True, Mughal India in 1700 accounted for 25 per cent of world Gross Domestic Product, a statistic often misquoted to prove economic success, except when one remembers that India also had 25 per cent of the world’s population. Far more revealing are statistics of per capita GDP compiled by the Maddison Project, generally accepted as the most authoritative guide to global prosperity from ancient Roman times to the present.

    The Maddison figures show that India’s per capita GDP was only half that of Britain’s in 1600, when the Mughal Empire was at its peak. Thereafter India witnessed steady economic decline, with its trade heavily dependent on textile exports increasingly unable to compete with cheaper European cloth. That’s because the Mughal economy offered neither incentives nor opportunity for labour-saving technological innovation. Eighty per cent of its territories were allocated to a rentier class of jagirdars, who creamed off any agricultural surplus for their own luxurious lifestyles. Because their tenure was restricted to a few years, they had no incentive to reinvest their rents in improved productivity. Capital costs were prohibitively high, with interest rates double the 6 per cent average in Britain and peaking as high as 40 per cent in pre-colonial Bengal.

    That’s not the propaganda of colonial apologists but the judgement of eminent Indian historians as diverse as the Marxist Irfan Habib and the nationalist Tapan Raychaudhuri. ‘Not only was the Mughal state its own gravedigger,’ concluded Habib, ‘but no new order was or could be created by the forces ranged against it.’

    Both Habib and Western economists like Angus Maddison have agreed that the Mughal land revenue system was far more exploitative than anything later devised by the Company Sahib or the Raj. It’s estimated that the Mughal elite creamed off an average 15 per cent of national income for its own consumption, compared with a mere 5 per cent by the British. Under the rapacious warlords who succeeded the Mughals, land revenue demands soared as high as 50 per cent of production to fund their local wars.

    India in 1750, on the eve of the British conquest, had no scientific or technological research, no machinery, no mechanical tools. Its labour-intensive textiles were bound to suffer dramatically, whoever ruled, once cheaper European industrial goods captured their markets. This economic challenge coincided with a period of fierce regional wars, following the collapse of Mughal authority, which devastated both agriculture and manufacturing across vast swathes of the Subcontinent. It was a situation which left the European-ruled ports as the only safe havens for Indian commerce, prompting a migration of business communities like Marwaris from declining inland cities like Benares and Mathura to Calcutta, Madras and Bombay.”

  121. Malla says:
    @KA

    The British Company Sahib and later the British Raj, Govt of India actually took less taxes than the Indian powers both Hindu and Islamic before them. And unlike the earlier rulers, the British built an empire of modern railways, mail, telegraph, irrigation systems, modern sanitation and healthcare superior to anytime in our history.

    From “India Its Administration And Progress” by John Starchey

    Instead of giving opinions of my own to tlie same effect, I will make another quotation from. Mr. J. S» Mill:—

    “A large portion of the revenue of India consists of the rent of land. So far as this resource extends in any country, the public necessities of the country may be said to be provided for at no expense to the people at large. Where the original right of the state to the land of the country has been reserved, ami its natural — but no more than its natural — rents made available to meet the public expenditure, the people may be said to be so far untaxed; because the government only takes from them as a tax what they would otherwise have paid as rent to a private landlord. … It is, of course, essential that the demand of revenue should be kept Avithin the limits of a fair rent. Under the native governments, and in the earlier periods of our own, this limit was often exceeded. But, under the British rule, in every instance in which the fact of excessive assessment was proved by large outstanding balances and increased difficulty of realisation, the government has, when the fact was ascertained, taken measures for reducing the assessment. The history of our government in India has been a continued series of reductions of taxation; and in all the improved systems of administration the object has been not merely to keep the government demand within the limits of a fair rent, but to leave a large portion of the rent to the proprietors. . . . Thus, by far the largest item in the public revenue of India is obtained virtually without taxation, because obtained by the mere interception of a payment which, if not made to the state for public uses, would generally be made to individuals for their private use.” ^

    Since the middle of the last century the land revenue of British India has more than doubled in amount, but it must not be supposed that the burden on the land has become heavier. The truth is that the process, described by Mr. Mill as “ a continued series of reductions of taxation,” has gone on during this period without intermission. The increase of land revenue has
    been mainly due to the extension of the empire. Since 1840 there has been, as I have already noticed, an addition of some 500,000 square miles of territory.
    In our older provinces the growth of the land revenue has been entirely the result of increase in the area of cultivation and in the value of agricultural produce, and in no instance has it been due to enhancement of the incidence of the government demand. There has been, on the contrary, in the words of the Government of India, “ a progressive reduction of assessments extending throughout the last century, and becoming more instead of less active during its second half.”

    There has never, so far as our knowledge goes, been a government in India that has taken so small a share in the profits of the soil as that taken by ourselves. This is true of every province of British India, Under all preceding governments, and under native governments to this day, there has been, in the words of Mr. Thomason, “no other limit to the demand upon the land than the power of the government to enforce payment and the ability of the people to pay.”

    Under the system laid down by Akbar, and carried, into effect in the year 1582 by the famous settlement of Todar Mal, the sovereign was held to be practising a wise moderation when he fixed his share of the gross produce of the land at 33 per cent, but this was much less than was ordinarily demanded. The Marathas took at least one-half; and the same proportion was
    ordinarily assumed to be their proper share by the governments that preceded us in Madras. The result of minute inquiries made towards the end of the last century showed that the native rulers in Bengal usually took about 54 per cent. In the Punjab, when we first occupied the province, it was found that the share of the gross produce taken by the Sikh government was from 40 to 50 per cent.
    Elphinstone, in his History of India thus sums up the facts in regard to the land revenue under native governments : “ The sovereign’s share is now reckoned at one-half. A country is reckoned moderately assessed if he only takes one- third”; and in one of his minutes, referring to the Deccan, he says that it seems to have been “the original principle in all settlements for the Government to take half and leave half to the cultivator.”

    Compare the foregoing facts with the following.

    Instead of sweeping off the whole or the greater part of the surplus profit of the land, our Government never takes more than a fixed share, the rate of which necessarily varies, but which only in exceptional cases exceeds*7 or 8 per cent of the gross out-turn. Many of the native states of Bombay have been surveyed and settled on the system adopted by onr government,
    and their rates are usually 10 to 15 per cent higher than in the British districts.
    In the Agra province, where the basis of the assessment is the rental of the land, and not the gross produce, our government, at the beginning of last century, took 90 per cent of the rent. We took the same proportion under the permanent settlement in Bengal. In the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh the share of the state is now less than 50 per cent of the rental, an amount estimated to be equivalent to 7 to 8 per cent of the gross produce.’-

    In Bengal the incidence is much less, but this has been the result of special causes, to which I shall again refer.

    Although the demands made upon the land by the British Government are far lighter than those of the governments that preceded it, it must be remembered that the principles on which our demands have been regulated are altogether different from theirs, and comparisons between the two are misleading. While our policy has been to encourage the growth of private property in land, and to take for the state only a moderate share of the rental or produce, former governments hardly recognised the existence of such property, and frequently took from the cultivator an amount as large as the full rack-rent which might have been taken by a private landlord, or the whole of the surplus profit after the expenses of cultivation had been defrayed. The cultivator was entitled to subsistence; everything else belonged to the state. This is often the assumption in Native states at the present time. In the words of Mr. J. S. Mill : “ Except during the occasional accident of a humane and vigorous local administration, the exactions had no practical limit but the inability of the peasant to pay more.” At the same time, when the peasant has no rights of property, and cultivates as a rack-rented tenant, it cannot be assumed that he pays less under our system than he paid before, when there was no private landlord between him and the state.

    An interesting investigation was made by the late Mr. Edward Thomas, in his Revenue Resources of the Moghul Empire, into the question of the amount of the revenue derived from the land and other sources by the Mughal emperors ; but the materials which he was able to collect were very imperfect. The revenues doubtless reached their highest point under Aurangzib.
    Mr. Thomas tells us that two manuscripts in the British Museum, copies apparently of official documents, give the land revenue of the empire for 1664-65

    ^ “The following maxim is believed to express the ruling idea of the revenue system maintained under the Emperor Akhar ; — ‘ There shall be left for every man who cultivates his land as much as he requires for his own support till the next crop be reaped, and that of his family, and for seed. This much shall he left to him ; what remains is land-tax, and shall go to the public treasury.’ ” —
    Sir E, Buck’s Statistical Atlas of India, p. 22.

    I quote also the following passage from the Report of the Indian famine Commission of 1901. “We have in the Ain-i-Akbari an authoritative contemporary record of what the share and the method of assessing it in the most highly organised and efficient native administration that India has had. Briefly stated, the land was classed according to its productiveness ; , . .
    a general average out-turn for each kind of crop was struck, ‘ one third part of which is exacted as the royal dues,’ . . . We know that this third part of the produce was constantly exceeded under the pressure of State necessity, or hyiarraers who contracted for the payment of the land revenue ; but apart from such excesses it is manifest that in the Mughal Hgime the la.nd revenue assessments were far more severe than any now enforced by the British Government.’*

    Akbar’s revenue was estimated at £26,743,000 and £24,056,000 Bernier, about the same time, gave the amount as £22,593,000 ; his details for the various provinces differ greatly from those in the Museum manuscripts, and Bernier himself describes his list as “ ce memoire que je lie crois pas trop exact ni veritable.” Towards the end of the seventeenth century a Venetian physician, Manucci, was employed at the Court of Aurangzib, and an account of much that he learned there is to be found in Catron’s Histoire generale de V Empire du Mogol (Paris, 1702). A list is given by Catron, on Manucci’s authority, of the amount of the land revenue in each province in 1697, when Aurangzib’s empire was much larger than it had been thirty years before. The total reaches the sum of £38,719,000. Whether these figures represent the demand or the collections is not stated, but no doubt the former is intended. Three manuscripts in the India Office library give the amount of Aurangzib’s land revenue at sums varying between £34,187,000 and £34,641,000; the years to which they refer are not stated, and although the totals do not much differ, the discrepancies in the details are great.

    Considering that the present land revenue of the British Government amounts only to £21,000,000, drawn from a more extensive empire than that of Aurangzib, the sums said to have been received or demanded from the land by the latter seem at first sight to deserve little credit. It seems, however, by no means impossible that even the largest amount mentioned may be approximately correct, because, as I have just explained, no comparisons are really possible between the land revenue of former Governments and our own. T£38,000,000, or whatever may have been the actual amount of Aurangzib’s’ revenue from land, included not only all that we now take as land revenue, but the greater part of the profit that we leave to private proprietors. For example, the rental of the landholders of Bengal is now probably not less than £12,000,000, of which less than £3,000,000 is taken by the State, If a ruler like Aurangzib were to take our place, nearly the whole sum would be claimed by him which is now intercepted by the zemindars (landlords).”


  122. [MORE]

    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

  123. Malla says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    On another matter, seeing as you are more clued up on Indian matters, why does India *really* not hold a referendum in Kashmir? I have searched this question online and have not yet found a satisfactory answer.

    It could be also that when the whole kashmir fiasco flared, there was intense hatred in between India and Pakistan. Most Indians could not even accept the creation of Pakistan which they believed to be “Division of the Holy nation.”. Also, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru who was our first Prime Minister was himself a Kashmiri Brahmin by birth, so he would not give away the land of his ancestors. Ironically he is the most hated by the right winged Hinduvadi hyper-nationalists for being “too soft” on Pakistan and even China. That was partly because unlike the Hinduvadi hotheads he was quite Anglo in his nature and thus more level headed than these ultra nationalist psychos. You must realise that the Indian “independence Struggle” was originally a revolt of upper caste Hindus against the Brits because they wanted their old system back and the British were changing society and slowly getting rid of feudal ideas and helping the weak. At times, Muslim aristocrats who lost power and could not keep up with the times would play a part in such movements too. That is because as English education was made available, we nimble smarter upper caste Hindus immediately took advantage of this and progressed. The Muslim elites stayed back in their arrogance and were left behind. They stuck to their traditional Persian education. My caste benefited enormously from the coming of modern English education, we soon filled up the ranks of the gigantic British Raj bureaucracy, helped running it efficiently. Some of us upper caste Hindus were full of joy on this but alas the British wanted the poor, lower caste cretins to get education too and were protecting them. Oh the horror. But anyways the Muslims, who had raped/enslaved and plundered us in the past, in their arrogance were left behind while we progressed. That was good. Lower caste people getting education and rights by British Govt, that was bad. Very bad.
    It is this Western educated, mostly England educated, mostly upper caste Indians who were the ones who spearheaded the early “Independence Struggle”. It was brown Sahibs vs the originally White Sahibs. Gandhi, Patel, Ambedkar, Nehru even Jinnah the father of Pakistan were all England Educated returnees. JP was educated in the USA. Nehru and many of the Indian leaders would go to London and get brainwashed by Commie Professors like Lasky in the LSE and become socialists, one ore reason why they are hated by Hindu nationalists as they believe Nehru’s socialism kept India backward.
    Some of these brown Sahibs used the tactic of continues petition to the government, others used terrorist/ revolutionary attacks against the Govt but these latter tactic of attacks hardly made an impact on the Imperial structure. It was only Gandhi (mercantile caste-England educated) who later converted the “struggle” into a mass movement.
    Thus Nehru and the earlier Congress represented this Brown Sahibs who were actually more level headed, pro Soviet, they were predominantly Socialists (but opposed Indian Communists including Indian Maoists even tho India was a Soviet ally), pro-Palestine etc…. The new BJP guys are the “folks of the people” against the older Anglicized leaders of Congress, basically under Modi, India becomes itself again, India expresses herself again. More Capitalist, pro-Zion, more hot headed, preparing for retribution and revenge against Muslims. It is decolonisation in action, decolonisation of our Englishness but recolonisation by Global Zion.
    What the BJP stands for, the teeming masses of India always stood for. The point is, as we move further and further away from the British Raj days, in the coming centuries, the entire Indian subcontinent will eventually rip apart by centrifugal forces as it was the British Empire like a magnetic force which kept the whole thing together. Pakistan ripped apart into two already with the creation of Bangladesh. Centrifugal forces in action. Massive Hindu Muslim clashes and maybe even genocide and eventual ripping apart of the entire Indian subcontinent into smaller polities is more or less inevitable in the future. It is like a star exploding after its fuel runs out. Maybe Indonesia too will one day rip apart as it moves more and more away into the future away from the Dutch Empire days which united and kept the whole thing together. Give it time.

    • Replies: @Malla
  124. anon[273] • Disclaimer says:
    @No Friend Of The Devil

    and for some other mysterious reason, China honored the U.S. embargo on Iranian products until Iran agreed to the 25 year deal and $400 billion financial scheme

    What really is mysterious is how you dreamed up something like this. The fact is China had never honored US’s unilateral embargo against Iran.

  125. antibeast says:
    @Mefobills

    If money serves a parasitic elite, that is always bad. In the case of China, the elite have the mandate of heaven, and if they screw up, they are ejected. With all of the new methods of control with 24×7 monitoring, that could be abused and China’s leaders don’t get ejected. The West is doing the same thing also, with 24×7 monitoring.

    China’s adoption of digital money in the form of WeChatPay, AliPay, UnionPay and DigitalYuan (in the future) was designed to curb the shadow money industry which grew out of endemic tax-evasion and pervasive corruption since Deng’s market reforms. How else are you going to monitor financial transactions except digitize and record them in a database? With digital money, consumers do lose privacy but so do tax-evading businessmen and corrupt officials. And Chinese people using smartphones to pay for everything has become such a habit that it’s actually difficult to find merchants willing to accept paper currency, especially nowadays with the Covid-19 pandemic.

    • Agree: dogbumbreath
    • Replies: @Mefobills
  126. vox4non says:

    Well, considering that the state of India is a British artefact of the 20th century from three main pieces (the Mughal North, the maharajas of the South, and the Northeastern states of the 7 sisters) – should we be surprised that it is constantly at conflict within an artificial construct?

    Yet given its history, it is a pity and a farce that India has continued to be a cat paw for others. It could be so much more if it had the right leaders and its people the right mindset. Alas, it has chosen a vainglorious path stoked by its own overblown sense of importance, and easily flattered by those who would manipulate it to its own demise.

    Sadly, one would have also hoped for a more thoughtful approach from the Indian intelligentsia, mindful of its capabilities and will. However, the smallness in thought and manners from the vulgar seems to have pervaded it too. Now, it looks like the entire artifice will just stumble into a disaster of its own making.

  127. Malla says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Yup most of them are true. But remember there are always exception case individuals, make quite a significant minority. Actually some of these points are true for most third world populations.

  128. It’s good if India is out of the BRI, for the sake of the project. Indians are more trouble than they’re worth.

  129. @Daemon

    So, the wanker Ron Unz, the self loathing Jew, is agreeing with your moronic bluster to please his newly found love, a Chinese harlot no doubt … he is better off describing the malfeasance of his own tribe rather than getting involved with America’s enemy # 1. But then again, loyalty isn’t their best suit, now is it?

    • Replies: @Daemon
    , @techvet
    , @Tor597
  130. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Allah can’t even liberate Jerusalem where his main man Muhammad used to fly on his donkey … to get to the high Himalayas would take more than a four legged beast!

    • LOL: Commentator Mike
  131. Daemon says:
    @Really No Shit

    I dont mind cantankerous cranks provided they illuminate us with the wisdom that they’ve managed to gather throughout the years. But are you going to introduce anything of substance or are you just going to talk shit all day?

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  132. @Deep Thought

    Hey Deep Throat,

    Practice your natural Chinese skills… all the best!

    Dr. Young

    • Replies: @trickster
  133. @Daemon

    Would you even recognize if substance hits you in the face? You won’t get a gold star just for coming to the defense of otherwise venerable Ron Unz …

  134. @KA

    I wouldn’t want to divert your attention from your gebfest with Malla but I would like to tell you that Nepalese may have differences with India but they also feel the same about China being stuck between the two overbloated “powers” with keen sense of their own self-importance … with one they share physical attributes and religious sentiments with the other. Whom do you choose between the two bullies? You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t!

    • Replies: @Tor597
  135. PolarBear says:
    @KA

    Orthodox Christians in Hypatias day were backwards like the Muslims of today. European Christians eventually developed a respect for the past and became the preservationists of ancient knowledge, artifacts, ect. Muslims have retained their backwardsness and have destroyed ancient sites in recent times.

    • Replies: @KA
  136. Daemon says:

    I’m coming to my own defense. I dont give a damn who gives me a thumbs up or brownie points.
    Do you have a rebuttal to my original post or are you just triggered that what you’ve read reminds you of what you’ve become? I bet you never imagined in your service days spending your golden years staking out on an anonymous forum taking pot shots at randos.

    You’re unwanted, old man. Get a clue.

    • LOL: Tor597
  137. trickster says:
    @Really No Shit

    RNS. you are really on a roll today, taking names and putting some stick about. Go for it.

    My coffee tastes better watching you thrash some of the dummies on this site LOL

    • Thanks: Really No Shit
    • Replies: @denk
  138. trickster says:
    @techvet

    I was floored by your comment and you are right although I always thought I was the only one who saw this trend and these characteristics. I know of one very successful company that was all white where a friend of mine was a senior executive. The company hired ONE East Indian Manager and shortly after I had retired and started travelling. I lost contact for some time.

    When his wife called me and told me he had retired as well I attended the ceremony. I was stunned to see that the entire company was an infestation of Indians. That one manager had hired his own kind. Other Indians infiltrated other departments and the nepotism continued. Even the janitor was east indian (Mr Ramlall). There were even Sikhs in the mixup, turbans and ceremonial daggers here and there. Further, the farewell was a place where masks were definitely needed at the time. Many of these people wore terelene (some sort of synthetic fabric) shirts which once the sweat got into them and since the indians did not believe in deodorant smelled to high heavens. What happened subsequently was the coolies fought among themselves for more promotion and pay raises.

    I heard that a few months later there was a resignation of whites 4 finance managers walking out all on one day and this escalated into an exodus, the herd instinct taking over.

    Said company ended up bankrupt. To your point though, the same trend continues. Once one Indian gets in the whole organization becomes plagued with them (like roaches) and unfortunately the majority are in no way qualified or even competent in the responsibilities for which they were hired.

    They are there because the families and friends who work together stay together !

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @techvet
  139. Anon[413] • Disclaimer says:
    @trickster

    The whole problem with India is that it has too many Indians. Our problem is that they come here. After thousands of years their greatest contribution to civilization is curry !

    Spot on!! And we can thank Bill Gates for giving Indian babies vaccinations so all 14-kids-per-woman can survive to adulthood causing the population boom, and now Gates is busy trying to secure as many H1B visas and green cards as he can to get them all over here.

    “Best and brightest” my eye. Indians are the Scam Artists of the East. Type in “Microsoft Tech Support” on Google and see how many fake supports you get, practically all run by Indians trying to download crap on your machine steal your passwords and valuable info. Most of those scam calls from “IRS”, “Apple iCloud account breach” etc. are run by Indians.

    Heather Mac Donald wrote in her book that America’s charitable foundations are now the foremost promoters of culture war. None of them are up to any good. The Gates Foundation’s primary goal is to ensure over population of Africans and Indians — the two lowest IQ and violent groups on earth, then help them invade the West

    It’s time to tax all fortunes over $1 Billion at 90%, including all contributions to their “charitable foundations”, which is just a tax evasion scheme. Anyone who has a fortune larger than that gained it through illicit means, either by exploiting their monopoly power or scamming on/through Wall Street. Enough with these rich assholes ruining the country and the world with their ill gotten gains!

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @trickster
  140. antibeast says:
    @Daemon

    The problem with the Indians isn’t a lack of intelligence per se (although that is indeed a pressing issue for some of the lower castes), but has to do with the average Indian’s intense inferiority complex coupled with an absolutely disproportional amount of pride/hubris compared to their actual achievements. This is a highly toxic combination.

    Sounds like Trump to me:

    The problem with Trump isn’t a lack of intelligence per se (although that is indeed a pressing issue for some of his lower-class white supporters), but has to do with Trump’s intense inferiority complex coupled with an absolutely disproportional amount of pride/hubris compared to his actual achievements. This is a highly toxic combination called Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

  141. trickster says:
    @haha

    A very amusing experience I must say.

    A neighbour of mine is a 5th Dan black belt. He always goes on about the discipline, dedication, commitment and all that clap trap. He talks about Chi, inner energy, pressure points to the point of utter boredom and eye rolls. A great chap but he talks like he is some kind of fucking oracle descended from a higher plane.

    It took him almost 10 years to arrive at this exalted degree. I on the other hand spent one weekend at a shotgun course where I learnt to load a shell with my mouth, underhand and overhand. I can put 7 rounds down range on target and faster than he can complete the first 7 moves of his most advanced Kata. As far as I know he has not yet demonstrated a low block for a load of buckshot to the balls.

    Now to your Yogi Guru. The time it takes for you to learn to fly Yogi style you could travel round the world on scheduled jet service east to west, north to south and diagonally and still have 50 years left over for other tasks. I dont want to be critical but I am sure that every airport in India lacks magic carpets and instead prefers to use good old fashioned planes (built by the white man). Shit, even the Yoga gurus coming to the US to tout their bullshit are flying Air India. No doubt that is because their magic carpets are in the work shop waiting for the delivery of spare parts

    These Asians get to me with their ancient secrets horse shit and it is no wonder they are all so ignorant and backward.

  142. @Malla

    Actually the British Civil Servant exam was patterned after the Chinese one…. I guess like tea – many people think Civil Service standards came from the Brits too – but it didn’t.

    Also you would make Korean vomit by making it sound like Japanese over lordship of them was a good thing. In the last Olympics they hosted an NBC correspondent had to be taken off assignment for saying so on the telecast. Koreans have self respect. That’s why they thrive.

    In any event if you want to say Japanese modernized Korea – then you have to say China taught the Brits how to govern with standards.

    • Replies: @Malla
  143. Malla says:
    @Alden

    OK Cool. I misunderstood.

  144. @trickster

    [The time it takes for you to learn to fly Yogi style you could travel round the world on scheduled jet service east to west, north to south and diagonally and still have 50 years left over for other tasks.]
    .
    I agree with everything else you say in the above post but when you “travel round the world on scheduled jet”, I hope you won’t get onto a B-737 MAX in haste!!! ;-D, ;-D, ;-D
    .
    Think before you board a plane AND think before you post a message.

    • LOL: trickster
  145. Malla says:
    @Anon

    Indians are the Scam Artists of the East.

    Mr. Gates is also getting vaccines to Nigerian “Princes” of their 419 kingdoms. Nigeria has a far higher fertility rate than India which is actually slowly moving towards 2.1 and some south Indian states are now below replacement and might see a shrinking population. Even in the cities, among slum dwellers you hardly see many who have more than 2 kids. It has become much more expensive to have kids than some decades ago. Most of my middle class acquaintances only have 1 child.

  146. @Tor597

    Yes seeing Indians with whites in the work place is like watching an old black and white bollywood movie… “yes boss – anything you say boss – ok boss – can I get that for you boss”. pretty sad

    • Replies: @Malla
  147. trickster says:
    @Anon

    LOL. I sometimes get calls from the “IRS” telling me I am a wanted man, the Justice department had issued a warrant for me, I have committed a serious crime and the Police are on their way to arrest me……unless I settle my “tax debt” immediately by speaking to an “IRS Agent”. The voice at the other end is always East Indian some of them speak English quite well. These calls are mostly very annoying and amazingly come from the same area code I am in.

    Finally I one day had enough and decided to have some fun. At the command to press “one” to speak to an agent I did and the conversation went like this.

    [MORE]

    Trickster (T) : Ah I understand I owe money to the Government
    East Indian (EI): Yes please give me your name
    T: My name is Dick Cockburn. What is yours ?
    EI: (With a thick East Indian Accent) My name is Phillip Ford (LOL). Your Address Mr Cockburn?
    T: 123 Pussy Street, Apt 69, New York, New York
    EI: Social Insurance Number ?
    T: PQR 987 654 321 0 ACE
    EI; Yes Mr Cockburn, you owe $4,533.29
    T: Well I dont have that money ?
    EI: You have to get it or you will go to prison. Federal Agents are already on their way to your house
    T: You mean even though I am broke I will still be arrested
    EI: yes ! You are in serious trouble for defrauding the Government
    T: Well I guess I have to go to jail. I have been in prison before you know
    EI: Well there is no need for that. Can’t you borrow the money. Dont you have a credit card ?
    T; No I dont. Wait I see a black SUV pulling up outside
    EI: Its the Federal Marshall
    T: Listen, I will make a deal with you.
    EI: How will you pay?
    T: Will you write off the debt if I let your sister polish my knob?
    EI: Pardon? What do you mean Mr Cockburn
    T: Will you write off the debt if I let your sister suck my cock ?

    Click. The phone goes dead. Just to add to my amusement I call back, press one again and ask to speak to Mr Ford. To my amazement THERE IS a Mr Ford. I ask him what is his sisters name and address, the line goes dead again. I again call back but I am blocked.

    I have also received calls again from East Indians from of all places El Salvador and the UK. These people are the lowest scum on earth and unbelievably slimy and yes “higher intelligence”? I dont think so !

    It seems to me though that this game benefits the authorities and other players (East Indians) whereever they are played as the games are recurring, effective and prevalent. Extremely stiff jail sentences in India or the US for all involved would put an end to these scams but this is a non starter hence these types of fraud are alive and well and prosper a few. The mutts on the phone make next to nothing but at least a better salary than selling video disks on some filthy street in Mumbai or wherever. The real dollars go to the low lives in the shadows.

    The next time you see some arrogant coolie driving a Benz or BMW SUV, he/ she might be one of those brilliant East Indians who are part of this scam. Beware !

  148. @KA

    “NE India is at mercy of the geography that India can’t change”

    Other than ego and hubris I see zero reason India wants it’s northeast. The ethnic groups there reject India (only Sikkim is compliant) and because of the “chicken neck” makes it so hard to defend. It is actually a strategic liability to india – not an asset. Are they really just that egotistical? Or do they really want to take over Bangladesh and Myanmar???

  149. KA says:
    @PolarBear

    You mean like the southern Baptist or like those
    who burnt Harry Potter books and drove bull dozers over the CDs of Dixie Chick .
    Do you mean the gang of Rumsfeld who bombed the archeological sites and let the museums get looted?

    Book burning -1497 AD Italy pagan books
    1490 Spain – Islamic books and Hebrew books – more than 6000 books on the orders of cardinal and archbishop

    1509 city of Oran ( Africa ) Muslims manuscripts archives books burnt by Cardinal and ordered by Spanish court

    1599 AD books manuscript religious sermons used by Indian Christians of St Thomas variety were burnt by Catholic of Goa , India by order of the archbishop
    Catholics in India also eradicated writings in Arwi language obliterating the socio cultural informations one could have

    1562 Bishop in Mexico burnt Mayan books burnt 5000 Maya images

    Today in 21 at century
    Pentagon burns books
    Church burns books
    Christian sects disliking other Christian sects burn each other books
    Hindus burn books
    ISIS burns books
    Jewish Burns books

    • Replies: @PolarBear
  150. @Malla

    But for the Hindu majority this was good news. After centuries of Islamic brutality and slavery and rapes, finally it happened, dream come true.

    I keep hearing this but I wonder where is the evidence. For the average Hindu life just went on. The Kshatriyas continued ruling (albeit as vassals to their Muslim overlords), the vaish kept trading, the shudras continued farming, and the dalits continued being shit on. The only people who were truly impacted were the Brahmins who suffered a serious loss of prestige and their rage is the foundation of Hindutva.

    Even the Moghuls favored the caste system and Babur made that explicitly clear in the Baburnama (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44608/44608-h/44608-h.htm). In the meantime Central Asian cuisine took root in India. Many signature dishes in Indian restaurants are actually of central Asian and middle eastern origin (like jalebis). Persian art and poetry eventually laid the foundations for Bollywood today. Hindus make it sound like there was a major war every Tuesday. One wonders how cuisine, art, poetry, and literature even had time to be created.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  151. Malla says:
    @KA

    White to local ratio was much smaller in India compared to Ireland until 1940s .

    ????, Ireland is itself White. So White to local would be White to White.

    British co-opted the upper caste Hindus .

    No. English education was open to all. Indian Muslims in their arrogance did not take advantage of it and wanted to stick to their traditional style of education which too was allowed and even funded by the British Govt. The point is Indians of various types, with various traits took to different roles in the British Raj. Intelligent quick-wited ethnics like Bengalis took to the bureaucracy, warrior races like Sikhs, Gurkhas, Rajputs etc… and even amny Muslims took to the Army. Mercantile ethnics like Marwaris, Parsis etc… were running businesses.
    Islamic madrasas were funded by the Britist East Indian Company as well as the later british Raj-Government of India as is attested by Lord Macaulay’s speech.
    And many Muslims supported British Raj too.

    From Catherine Mayo’s Mother India.

    “But perhaps I may without offense name another, Sirdar Mohammed Nawaz Khan, lord of twenty-six villages in Attock District, northern Punjab.

    This young Muslim went for his early education to the College for Punjab Chiefs, at Lahore, and thence to the Royal Military College at Sandhurst, to earn a commission in the Indian Army. During his stay in England, being from time to time a guest in English country houses, his attention was caught and fixed by the attitude of large English landlords toward their tenants.

    Coming as a living illustration of the novel principles of landlord’s duties laid down by the English headmaster of his college in Lahore, the thing struck root in his mind and soon possessed him. Dashing young soldier that he made, after eighteen months’ service with a Hussar regiment, popular with officers and men, he resigned his commission and returned to his estates. “For I see where my place is now,” he said.

    There he spends his time, riding from village to village, working out better conditions, better farming methods, better sanitation, anything that will improve the status of his people. Twenty-seven years old and with an annual income of some four lakhs of rupees, he is an enthusiastic dynamo of citizenship, a living force for good, and the sworn ally of the equally enthusiastic and hard-working English Deputy Commissioner.

    Curiously enough, he strongly objects to Government’s new policy of rapid Indianization of the public services, takes no interest in Swaraj politics, and less than none in criticism of Government’s efforts to clean up, educate, and enrich the people. His whole time goes to vigorous cooperation with Government betterment schemes, and to vigorous original effort.”

    …snip……

    So that when, in the autumn of 1917, Mr. Montagu, Secretary of State for India, sat in Delhi to receive from Indian interests their views on the subject of his proposed Reforms, association after association came forward to deplore or to repudiate the act of the All-India Muslim League; and the language they used was simple enough. Said the United Provinces Muslim Defence Association:[1]

    [1. Addresses Presented in India to His Excellency the Viceroy and the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for India, London, 1918, p. 10. ]
    any large measure of self-government which might curtail the moderating and adjusting influence of the British Government could be nothing short of a cataclysm.

    Said the Indian Muslim Association of Bengal:[2]

    [2. Ibid, p. 30.]
    In the existing backward condition of the majority of Hindus and Muslims, with their divergent creeds, castes, institutions and clashing interests, the differences which separate the Hindu from the Muslim cannot but be reflected in their dealings and relations with each other…No careful observer will be deluded by the deceptive unanimity of the National Congress and the Muslim League…

    The Indian Muslim Association…does not agree to the wisdom of any catastrophic changes likely to weaken the permanance and stability of British rule in India, upon the broad foundations of which rest all our hopes and aspirations of constitutional and administrative progress.

    Said the Association to Safeguard the Muslim Interests in the Province of Bihar and Orissa:[3]

    [3. Addresses Presented in India to His Excellency the Viceroy and the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for India, p. 40.]
    We cannot deprecate too strongly the want of foresight displayed by some of our co-religionists in endorsing in their entirety, the views and claims of the Congress. Already there is strong tendency visible in certain quarters to oppress and terrorise the Musalmans and ignore…their interests. The guiding principle of the English rule up to now has always been to administer the affairs of Indian Empire with impartiality in the presence of diverse religions and nationalities of which it is composed…

    The South India Islamia League[4] presented a plea in which they reminded Mr. Montagu that, being a minority community, they

    realise the value of the British Government in holding the scales even between different classes in this country…[and] are opposed to any scheme of political reconstruction which tends to undermine the authority of British Government in India, but are strongly in favour of gradual progressive political development.

    [4. Ibid., pp. 62-3.]
    The Muttialpet Muslim Anjuman, a Muhammadan educational society of Madras, implored Mr. Montagu to stay his reforming hand:[5]

    [5. Ibid., p. 63.]
    The Britisher alone can hold the scales even between the various communities. Whenever our interests collide with those of other communities, it is to him we look up as the embodiment of justice and fair play. Whatever reforms may be introduced, we trust that nothing will be done to undermine the authority of the British Government in India.

    The Muhammadans of the Bombay Presidency presented an anxious appeal which read in part:[6]

    [6. Ibid., pp. 78-9.]
    It is freely asserted that in no distant future the English bureaucracy will disappear and an Indian majority in the Councils will take its place. Whatever may have been the defects of that much abused bureaucracy in the past, it must be admitted that it has had one redeeming merit, viz., that of holding the balance even as between the two principal communities in India, and thus protecting the weak against the strong.

    But in view of the nature of Muhammadan thought, a more ominous weight lay in a simpler pronouncement. The Ulema is the body of official interpreters of the Koran which, on occasion of doubt, delivers decisions that guide the Muslim world. The solemn verdict of the Ulema of Madras, now laid before the British Secretary of State for India, was expressed in three closely similar dicta, one of which follows:[7]

    [7. Addresses Presented ïn India to His Excellency the Viceroy and the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for India, pp. 63-4.]
    “Verily, Polytheists are unclean.” In case the British Gov-ernment were to hand over the administration, as desired by the Hindus, it would be contrary to the Sacred Law of Musulmans to live under them, Polytheists.

    • Replies: @KA
  152. @showmethereal

    Egotistical is my assessment, their policy on Kashmir is actually a good example of this. The militancy in Kashmir which has turned it into a giant graveyard only began in 1987 when the Indian state rigged local elections. I read that in 1965, the Pakistanis actually tried to send in guerillas to liberate Kashmir from Indian rule (Operation Gibraltar), but this covert operation ended in farce for the Pakistanis who had their men turned into the Indian authorities by the Kashmiris themselves! This precipitated the 1965 war between the two countries which ended in a stalemate. India could easily have granted Kashmir independence and turned it into into a vassal state if it wanted to, as Kashmir would still require access to sea, but instead it stubbornly kept it clenched in its greasy hands with the possibility of it slipping out at any moment, deeply antagonising the Kashmiris who were at that time moderate and not Islamist in their outlook.

    You are correct that these areas are a liability more than an asset from a strategic perspective, however outside countries have an interest in maintaining this Indian egotism, as if drives arms sales to India, the second largest importer of weapons, should the Kashmir and India-China disputes be solved, then American and Europeans arms companies would lose a lot of money due to lack of demand from India and Pakistan.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @ivan
  153. Malla says:
    @showmethereal

    like watching an old black and white bollywood movie

    What??? Which black and White movie, did you see this? Names please.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  154. @trickster

    You are talking about guns and then saying how Asians are ignorant and backwards… So you don’t know gun powder and guns were invent in Asia??

    • Replies: @trickster
  155. techvet says:
    @Really No Shit

    ever heard the phrase ‘dont let perfect be the enemy of good’? Just because them Juice are an extremely troublesome lot, doesn’t mean other ethnic narcissists especially those as shifty and clannish as them brahmins don’t harm the social fabric in any way. There’s a reason the juice has selected them to be top dogs in this country to replace their WASP minions. Not the Chinese, not the castizo, not the hispanic and definitely not them blacks. By the way, your friend trickster agrees with my comment so there’s that. You two seem eye to eye on many issues dontcha?

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  156. @trickster

    That is because once an Indian gets into any senior management position in the West or an international organisation, he takes a cut from the salaries of the Indians he hires from back home. He doesn’t care about their qualification, references, abilities, experience, and the main question in the interview is “what percentage of your salary will you give me if I hire you?” and the job goes to the highest bidder. This is standard corrupt practice with them. Obviously if there are any non-Indians present in the appointments committee this question is settled discretely behind the backs of others.

  157. Malla says:
    @showmethereal

    Actually the British Civil Servant exam was patterned after the Chinese one…

    You know of all the people, you Chinese are the most like us. @Everything came from [email protected] You are much similar to us than you would like to think. LOL
    Anyways, even if what you say is true, there is no doubt that the British civil servants who were sent to run India had to go through the hardest examinations in the World at its time. Later on as Indianisation policy was applied both Indians and Britishers could and would take the exams and get positions on merit only. Same in the Dutch Indonesian Empire.
    Today the Indian IAS (Indian Administrative Services) as well as the civil exams in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are a continuation of the earlier Imperial service exams and they are still very difficult and demanding.

    Also you would make Korean vomit by making it sound like Japanese over lordship of them was a good thing.

    Koreans are as brainwashed about the Japanese Empire as we are about the British Empire. Indeed some Koreans have gone psychotic, all that VANK propaganda.

    From the book, New Korea by Alleyne Ireland

    http://yeoksa.blog.fc2.com/blog-category-57.html

    Korea, on the other hand, presents the rare spectacle of one civilized race ruling another civilized race. It is true that at the time Japan annexed Korea, in 1910, the actual conditions of life in the Peninsula were extremely bad. This was not due, however, to any lack of inherent intelligence and ability in the Korean race, but to the stupidity and corruption which for five hundred years had, almost continuously, characterized the government of the Korean dynasty, and to the existence during that period of a royal court which maintained throughout Korea a system of licensed cruelty and corruption.

    Such was the misrule under which the Koreans had suffered for generation after generation that all incentive to industry, thrift, and social progress had been destroyed, because none of the common people had been allowed to enjoy the fruits of their own efforts.”

    …..snip…..

    All sincere and humane colonial governors–and none is more worthy of such a description than is Viscount Saito, Governor-General of Korea since 1919–are compelled to close their ears to the mutually destructive criticisms to which I have alluded, and must content themselves with carrying out from day to day measures designed to improve the general conditions of their dependencies.”

    He further writes about administration in Korea in the Japanese Empire.

    Furthermore, the Colonial Governor looks for his advancement to the distant authority of a Secretary of State at the national capital. Promotion and other rewards will depend upon the way in which he administers his charge. He is little likely to earn them if, from preventable causes, his territory fails to advance in its health, prosperity, and general social condition; he is almost certain to miss them if, in consequence of harsh and incompetent administration, the people rise in revolt against his rule, or sink into the apathy and sloth which are the assured products of prolonged misgovernment. Briefly, the success of his rule will be the measure of his personal success.

    Since he is directly responsible for the conduct of his subordinates, and for the appointment of most of them, and has in addition the power of promotion and dismissal, his officials have every incentive to earn their own advancement by rendering such service as will redound to the credit of the Governor.”

    Also George Kennan had written in Outlook Magazine about the benevolent Japanese Empire’s effect on Korea. Strangely they are in Unz’s library.

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905oct07-00307
    Korea: A Degenerate State by George Kennan
    The Outlook, October 7, 1905, pp. 307-314

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905nov11-00609
    The Japanese in Korea by George Kennan
    The Outlook, November 11, 1905, pp. 609-615

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905nov18-00669
    What Japan Has Done in Korea by George Kennan
    The Outlook, November 18, 1905, pp. 669-672

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @ivan
    , @Ron Unz
  158. techvet says:
    @trickster

    Do you think more people could be made aware of the perils of importing a clannish, tribalist people of moderate to above average IQ? IMHO they are a much more deadlier threat to the long term ethos of this country than the dumb violent types? I mean between a hundred thousand brahmins and Salvadoreans who do you think has a fair chance of influencing policy (just look at that whore Mike Lee of UT) or getting into congress? It’d be surprising if a single Salvadorean from that bunch ends up in congress. Likewise it’d be surprising if no single Brahmin from the bunch doesn’t make it to congress.

    Cringe boomers think as long as they don’t chimp out, everyone is welcome and can be “assimilated”. Those idiots haven’t yet figured out that the apparently “well behaved” ashkenaz have been pissing on them for so long, they are actually drowning in it. Have you seen them in “conservative” conferences and stuff? zio lapel pins and all, the way they simp for IL online and offline is so pathetic, words can’t describe my agony.

    I see some hope in zoomers though

  159. denk says:
    @axually it does

    India’s diversity is one of its strengths and a reason it has not had the same experience as China, India is more resilient in the long run

    YOu’r only fooling yourself and your stupid murikkan cousins but no one else.

    Diversity

    Tell that to the ‘chinki faced terrorists‘ in the so-called Indian NE .

    Why do the heartlanders call these NE ‘Indians’ chinki faced ?

    [MORE]

    Cuz all the seven states are Mongoloid kingdoms first gobbled up by the Brit Raj.
    When India got its independence, all these seven sisters….
    Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland and Tripura, naively thought that they’d be rid of the yoke from Delhi too.

    Alas,
    Nehru crushed their dream by sending in several divisions of the dreaded Assam rifles, yes, thats the same Assam rifles whose beastly deed provoked a demonstration by a group of nuke women in Manipur, who defiantly challenged ‘Indian army come rape us’

    Out gunned, out manned, the gallant Nagas and others fought one of the longest independence war agaInst the IndiaN army,
    who resorted to scorched earth tactics, genocides, torture and mass rapes to
    broke the NE resistance.

    YOU’D NEVER HEAR THIS IN THE
    FIVE LIARS DOMAIN.

    INDIA’S TIBET, THE TIBET NO INDIANS OR ANGLOS WANNA TALK ABOUT.

    BUt why ‘chinki faced terrorists‘, ?

    Even tho the backbone of SEven sisters resistance has been broken by the brutal Indian juggernaut, there’r still a sizable resistance movement carrying on the struggle, sniping , bombing Indian occupiers whenever they got the chance.

    The poor sods, for five decades, they fought gallantly against the genocidal Indian army against all odds, without a peep from the human rights champions , aka [[[the five liars]]].
    They are broken and subdued now, accepting their fate as the Indians kept concubines.
    A man can only do so much, life goes on.

    LIfe is hard in their homeland, ghastly under developed and constantly under the jack boot of the trigger happy jawans, whose atrocities sparked off the longest hunger strike in history by the iron lady of Manipur,

    How many here ever heard of her story,
    raise your hand !

    One gotta make a living,
    Many NE folks fanned out into the heartland to seek job and further study, they stick out like sore thumb in the sea of dark mass.

    NE men often got abused , ‘are you from China or one them chinki terrorists from the NE ? , many more were insulted, beaten up , and murdered.

    NE girls faced an even worse fate, frequently molested, gang raped by strangers, co workers, land lords.

    IM sure you heard a lot about rapes in India.
    fair skin chinki face NE folks bear the brunt of the sex maniacs.

    The dirty underbelly of Indian ‘diversity’ ,
    they never ever talk about it in the [[[five liars]]] aka, self appointed human rights champions.

    Exhibit A

    ‘A Naga student from Delhi University was molested at a Delhi metro on the evening of May 22nd. She was sexually assaulted by a lawyer. The next morning, two members of a Northeast Union group and a female advocate went to Tis Hazari court in Delhi, representing the student. The three Northeasterners were viciously attacked by a mob of 20-30 lawyers and their associates. The men were savagely assaulted, and the woman slapped on her face by the mob of lawyers.

    The mob threatened her, “We could do a lot more but we have spared you.”

    https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2014/05/delhis-non-acceptance-towards-north-east-indians-time-war-violence/

    Tip of an iceberg,

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Thanks: Mary Marianne
    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  160. Malla says:
    @Malla

    One can look at photos of Seoul city during feudal Chosun and later under modernising Japanese Empire. Photos speak a thousand words.
    Seoul during pre Japanese Empire feudal Chosun (Joseon Dynasty) era
    Seoul as part of the Japanese Empire.
    Japanese Empire Korean textbooks in both Japanese and Korean Hangul script.

  161. @techvet

    An American must be first and foremost concerned about his own so the rest are just strangers… as to what “trickster” agrees or not I do not know but it seems that in the last couple of days, he has found a kindred spirit in me (of course, how long that hand holding will last is anybody’s guess). But as it comes to India and China, I will take India with its myriad problems any day, yes, even with its streets turned into toilets, because China is an existential problem for the U.S. I am not pollyannaish enough to be lulled into a false sense of camaraderie with the boorish chinaman… India is just a backward outpost that may require some vigilance but God forbid we take our eyes of those rotten yellow scoundrels!

    • Replies: @techvet
    , @denk
  162. trickster says:
    @showmethereal

    I dont give a shit who invented guns or gunpowder !. The fact is that during the Boxer Rebellion the Chinese rebelled with swords, their Kung Fu Masters telling them their Iron Shirt Chi would deflect the bullets of the “white devils”.

    Western troops had a field day with these bozos. That was just 100 years ago. To further make my point during WW2 the Americans and British had to PROVIDE and TRAIN Chinese troops with modern weapons and still their performance against the Japanese was at best marginal. That was what 75 years ago ?

    You guys are still eating with sticks for heavens sake !

    So you see, who invented the tool is irrelevant. The man who puts it to use is the smart dude. My point still stands and you cannot prove me wrong. You in fact are doubly idiotic in trying to do so by just making an irrelevant statement. So fuck off !

  163. @denk

    Is the Indian army doing the same thing to the girls in the “seven mongloid kingdoms” what Mongols or Japanese did to the chinaman at large? I see why you have brutally molested the Mongol kingdoms surrounding Hanistan… you want to feel macho, no?

  164. techvet says:
    @Really No Shit

    I don’t want neither. I want the US to get out of playing a cop to the world. As it is, BLM and antifa and all sorts of domestic groups sponsored by the usual suspects. The very people who are into mindless invade abroad are ardent supporters of white replacement here (bill krystol types)

    Indians due to their deeply clannish mindset and a general cliquish demeanor are seriously becoming the next ashkenazim here. If immigration isn’t shuttered now, we’ll be well on our way to becoming like one of these tribalist countries they seek to escape from.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  165. Malla says:
    @Malla

    It is like a star exploding after its fuel runs out.

    The British Empire in India was like the formation of a new Star. But with time the star runs out of fuel and explodes. This is what may happen to the entire Indian subcontinent as in some centuries, centrifugal forces could rip the Indian subcontinent apart as the gravitational force of the British Empire and later British institutions and Britishness cannot keep it all together. Already religious fundamentalism of all sorts, Islamic, Hindu as well as Buddhist fundamentalism in Sri Lanka (BBS) will increase further. Separatist movements galore in India among Kashmiri Muslims, North Easterners, Sikhs etc…, Baloch and even Pathans in Pakistan, Chittagong Hill Tracts in Bangladesh, possible re-emergence of Tamil separatism in Sri Lanka. Tribalism and nationalism kept in control by the British Empire will all eventually re-emerge. And eventually the whole subcontinent will explode, powerful centrifugal forces will rip everything apart. Already Bangladesh got its independence from Pakistan. And all will return to the original state, the English found it when they came, the default state of South Asia. A mass of squabbling petty kingdoms fighting each other. Give it a century or two.

    As decolonisation continues in African countries, with time, many African states (Nigeria, Angola, Kenya etc…) who are nothing but colonial creations could rip apart into its constituent tribal/ ethnic parts and return to the original state as the Europeans found them. A mass of squabbling tribes attacking each other. Add to that more Islamic-Christian conflicts, Arab-black conflicts in the north, White-Black-Coloured-Khoi San- Indian- Cape Malay conflicts in South Africa and other places and even Anglo-Afrikaner conflicts. All was kept together in Empires, all may explode off and get ripped apart eventually by strong centrifugal forces.
    Similarly Indonesia could face the same state as time passes on. Indonesia was created by the Dutch Empire and as time passes and decolonisation takes place and ethnic feelings increase, anger towards Javan domination increases, the Indonesian star may one day explode off too. As it was the Dutch Empire which provided the original gravitational pull to keep it all together. Already we had once case of East Timor ripping away via such centrifugal force.

    As I spoke of British India being a new star which may in the future run out of fuel and explode. What is strange is that the flag of India during the British Empire had a star in it!!!! Called the star of India.
    Flag of India during the British Empire.
    It has a star, called Star of India (May Heaven’s Light be our Guide). Strange. Very symbolic. May be prophetic as I have explained.

  166. @techvet

    I see your sense of alarm but to compare Indians in America to the Ashkenazi is not to understand the hidden hand, what the Italians call “mano nera” in reshaping of this great country… it’s one thing for Apoo to own a convenience store but he is no, and I repeat no, Moishe behind the New York Fed desk.

    • Replies: @techvet
  167. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ghan-buri-Ghan

    Mefobills makes a lot of sense when he talks about macroeconomics, including (especially) the economic history of the last 250 years.

    He is worth reading when it comes to his expertise. But of course, we are all sometimes susceptible to some propaganda, MSM brainwashing, and going along with popular opinion – and might now and then say things we have not truly researched for veracity (re: so-called “Chinese technology theft”).

    That’s OK. Cut Mefobills a little slack.

  168. @trickster

    “The man who puts it to use is the smart dude.”

    It’s the most profound thing anyone has written all day…

    The dirty yellow cockroaches are utilizing that very dictum to out do us in our own backyard. And God help us if we don’t put the chinaman in his place in the near future!

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  169. Malla says:
    @trickster

    You guys are still eating with sticks for heavens sake !

    What is wrong with eating with chop sticks? I find eating with chop sticks far more hygienic and civilized than eating with bare hands as we do.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @trickster
  170. techvet says:
    @Really No Shit

    I don’t know what industry you work in, but in tech, Indians are yyuuuuugggeeee. having purged almost all whites from the industry, they are now organizing along caste/regional lines. Most are filthy rich now and many are heavily lobbying congress to enact legislation that would allow other industries to go the same way. They want the flood gates opened for H1B, L1 and all manner of alphabet soup visas. There’s a big India caucus in the US congress as well. Apoo is no longer just a convenience store owner pal. And our fellow white people had a great hand in getting him there

    He is already on par with your avg hasid and may well become the new overlord here when moishe decides he’s sucked enough and need to head off to his promised land

  171. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Eating with chopsticks just so happens to take considerably more manual dexterity and actual practice than eating with conventional utensils. As in noticeably more.

    I was in my teens when I really learned how to use chopsticks, even though my parents took me to Asian restaurants a lot as a kid. Of course, my parents also only learned as teens, according to them.

    Maybe its cultural? We like to get down to doing the job as directly as possible – in eating, this means conventional spoons, forks, knives etc.

    Asians seem to like it when something takes focus, practice and patience, so . . . chopsticks. They don’t do it because it’s easy, they do it because it’s kinda hard, maybe.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  172. KA says:
    @Malla

    In case of Ireland ,the ratio of British to Irish soldier was 4 times higher than what was in India .
    This is important because Britain never ever found itself at risk of losing control because of Indian military strength . Though mainland Indian served In Boer war , WW1 and Ww2.
    Chances of successful rebellion or unrest was nipped in the bud by Ghnadhi in 1920 .
    The plan was simple: having transition of Brutush rule to upper caste Hindu rule all along with no participation of common folks .

    Popular revolt was never his favorite . The so called useless salt tax revolt have found a niche colored with romanticism and adulation . Buts it’s impact on Britain was zero.

    Yes I agree Muslims didn’t take advantage of the education in the manner they could have despite restrictions . Above all the pattern of access to education has noit changed in India from that time . But many practical constraints still rule . Those constrains are in place and still are mostly imposed by the elite of India .
    Most of the colleges ,universities technical schools in British time were located in areas dominated by upper caste Hindus .

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @nokangaroos
    , @Malla
  173. KA says:
    @showmethereal

    Whose ego we are talking about ? It’s the blood of the lower caste ,money of the tax payer ,and the war of the chicken hawk armchair warrior whose kids com to UK USA Australia and at home goes to IIT , AIIMS, ISI, ISI.

    • Agree: Malla
  174. @techvet

    If it should come to pass, unlike the Jew, the Hindoo would be easier to be deal with, with an iron fist that is…

    • Replies: @Tor597
    , @techvet
  175. @Rdm

    Your scatological obsession with the poor of India, at least a billion out of 1.3 billion population, is as naive as that of an American sinophile whose own belief persuades him to think that the chinaman won’t poop on him. Only a fool would rejoice in the misery of the unfortunate poor while being totally oblivious to the shit storm that will soon engulf him … there is no hope for the morons!

    • Replies: @Rdm
    , @Deep Thought
  176. @techvet

    Remember to hate China only.

    Then you will become his best anon. Lol.

  177. trickster says:
    @Malla

    Whoop Dee Doo and bully for you that you can eat with two wooden sticks. After eating with your fingers from a banana leaf that must be a huge upgrade for you. So congrats on your improvement in etiquette and technique.

    Here is the rub though, monkeys can be trained to use a stick but not a knife and fork. Any savage in the bush can cut two twigs and eat with them. Knives and forks show a progression to and a culmination in being civilized when it comes to having a meal.

    Further be advised that it was the people who ate with knives and forks and in plates versus their grubby fingers from banana or eddo leaves or bowls who subdued India and China.

    THAT is what is wrong with eating with sticks !

    • Replies: @TSS
    , @antibeast
  178. trickster says:
    @Rdm

    Yes Sir, I am truly shocked ! Never would have believed it !

    I hope Malla sees this because she wants to know what is wrong with eating with two sticks. Unknown to her (and she should at least know her own culture better than I do) this dude will clean his arse WITH a stick !…….and neglect to wash his hands or clean his fingernails !

    Who likes their curry hot…..or mild and I dont mean to be crass but are there other unwanted ingredients added knowingly or inadvertently? LOL . That is why I never go to their restaurants.

  179. Rdm says:
    @Tor597

    I would add that ….

    Whichever Indians proud of their brethren becoming CEOs of Multinational companies, they don’t know they’re being shafted solidly from behind back in their homeland by MNCs.

    Give 100 million salary to Pichai and Google, MSFT, FB they’re all raking profits in billions from 1.2 billion Indians back home. But but …

    – all Indians salivating over immigrating to the US,
    – those newly born are prepping to study medicine to become Dr in the US, not to serve their countrymen, but to become Dr in the US
    – they all want to leave a shithole country.

  180. Rdm says:
    @Really No Shit

    My posted video and your name checks out.

  181. I almost wish Indians and Chinese do take over the US. I’d love to see the look on the faces of African americans when Indians in Congress shoot down affirmative action and welfare just as they would in India against dalits. The look of horror on their faces as accounts of slavery are met with indifference from the Chinese and Indians. When their tantrums are met with swift police brutality courtesy of their new Asian overlords. They’ll then wish for the good old days of white supremacy when they could morally browbeat whites into getting their way.

  182. @I'm Tyrone

    Something like this happens with Hispanics and blacks already, there is much hostility between the two groups. Blacks will be shocked when the only group cowered by cries of “racism” no longer has dominance in everyday life.

    I think the ultimate goal for a lot of black racial activists is just to bring down Whites, even if this means reducing their own living standards and influence. We saw this triumph of black egotism in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, and we see it in many American inner cities.

    Is it any wonder that Col. Gaddafi used the prospect of sub-Saharan African migrations into Europe as WMD threat to extort money from the EU? These people are quite obviously disastrous for the spiritual wellbeing and day-to-day functioning of any civilised society.

    • Replies: @Daemon
    , @Commentator Mike
  183. Daemon says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    The goal isn’t to bring down whites per se, but the perceived status gaps between the two groups. If whites have to be destroyed as a group to achieve this, so be it. That’s their argument. I don’t know if you’ve read thespandrell, but the principle idea is that man is a fundamentally rational animal – as long as the object of that rationality is social status.

    This is fundamentally why they will never ever be satisfied with the gibs, the affirmative action, the endless paeans on MSM and favorable depictions in media. This is why they do ‘weaves’ in order to get ‘good hair’, why they want to go to ‘good schools’ with white students. They’re hoping that if they’re in proximity to whites and somehow mimic their external markers that somehow their social status will improve solely by association. They don’t understand that social status is a direct function of human capital and it will NEVER be raised by external artificial means until they get their act together.

    Whites on the otherhand will never understand this, because to recognize the primacy of social status on intergroup relations and hierarchy will fundamentally undermine western liberalism, which is the crown jewel that the west has pioneered for the past 500 years. They would rather die than kill their baby that is also killing them.

    So, they will ALL die.

    • Agree: Ghan-buri-Ghan
  184. ivan says:
    @Malla

    Very good find Malla. The things one learns from hanging out here.

    • Thanks: Malla
  185. ivan says:

    I don’t understand Escobar at all. Is he trying to be a small-time Durranti for the Chicoms. India due to its geography and population size will be a dominant force in the Indian Ocean region.

    As to Silk Roads and so on, we’ve seen it before. The largest transformation since the West left was accomplished by the Japanese in the 80s and 90s, when they expanded overseas. The Chicoms are only following in their wake, picking up the nickels. Education and knowledge about modern processes are endemic now. The Chicoms are not bringing anything new.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  186. @trickster

    [So you see, who invented the tool is irrelevant. The man who puts it to use is the smart dude. My point still stands and you cannot prove me wrong. You in fact are doubly idiotic in trying to do so by just making an irrelevant statement. So fuck off !]
    .
    Tell THAT to those who accuse China of “stealing” their technology.
    .
    So, “So fuck off !”

    • Replies: @Daemon
  187. @Really No Shit

    […put the chinaman in his place in the near future!]
    .
    Forget it– the Blacks are putting you people “in your place” right now:
    .
    https://www.unz.com/article/why-america-has-gone-mad/

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  188. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Is it any wonder that Col. Gaddafi used the prospect of sub-Saharan African migrations into Europe as WMD threat to extort money from the EU?

    Gaddafi never needed to extort money from the EU or anybody else. In fact he had so much of it that he freely spread it around, even to that scumbag Sarkozy. And what does bringing down the good Colonel make whites? Smart? Clever? Intelligent? Other than those few at the top who wanted to seize his country’s wealth, assets, the billions in foreign banks. But those others? The majority of whites who support, vote for, and allow such few scoundrels to rule over them? And now that their masters have unleashed the plague of the sub-Saharans onto them, bringing them to their doorsteps and beyond, they still support the vermin that rule them, nod like donkeys to their talking points while watching their propaganda TV, and drown out any critics with buzz words they’ve moronically picked up while repeating like some mantras taught to dunces in remedial classes. To hell with them all!

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @ivan
  189. @ivan

    I knew your were a Zionist. It is now confirmed. I was like that is a weird Russian anon. Now your comments all make sense.

    • LOL: ivan
  190. denk says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Both Indian and US sources suggest this,

    ROTFLMAO

    How old are you honey ?
    FUKUSI[ndia] your go to source. !

    They both claim to be democracy

    They both accused China of invading India in 1962

    They both cry the ‘Chinese threat’

    yoU SWallow all that craps ?

    In this thread,
    Indians and their anglo cousins are like,
    YOu scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours,
    or rather,
    YOu eat my bushit and I’ll swallow your cow dung.

    [[[They]]] both claim…

    ‘China is behind the coup in Nepal.

    The only reason Nepal even exists as an independent nation is because of India. Otherwise it would have been gobbled up by China long ago.’

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1336484/posts?q=1&;page=1

    Reality check,

    From the horse mouth….

    ‘‘Nepal is a yam between two boulders’- the message of the great King Unifier Prithbinarayan Shah is still relevant. China never troubled Nepal ever since communism was established in China. Although Nepal has ties with India-geographically and culturally since the Muslim rule, it is a matter of worriless that Nepal always faced threat from India. In that context, Nepalese scholar diplomat Keshar Bahadur KC said- ‘If there was no China, Nepal would have ceased to exist.’’

    https://newsblaze.com/thoughts/opinions/nepal-relation-with-china-is-cordial-why-tension-with-india_29461

    Johnfrypoop

    Both Indian and US sources say….

    Why are we getting all these clowns these days ?
    mofo are really scraping the barrel bottom.
    hhehehehhe

  191. @Really No Shit

    The “shit storm” engulfing the whites right now!!!
    .
    https://www.unz.com/article/why-america-has-gone-mad/

    • LOL: denk
    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  192. Daemon says:
    @Deep Thought

    It’s almost comical how they want to have moral high ground in the present and at the same time secure the moral high ground for their ancestors as well. Literally wanting their cake and eating it too.

    Mental toddlers, can’t argue with em. But then, I didn’t expect otherwise from boomers.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  193. ivan says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    The Dalits themselves who would have styled themselves “the blacks” in India have no time for the American blacks. For school in India often consists of a couple of benches with a blackboard. With those limited resources the average software coolie manage to land a job the US or Europe. The blacks in America with trillions directed towards their education have made no such progress. This is not entirely their fault : The Demoncrat plantation managers groomed all too many of them to direct their intellect to hating whitey. But it will come to end soon enough.

  194. ivan says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Actually I thought Col Gaddafi wanted to make a North African combine, a common market with the Arabs and Africans, to better manage their own destinies. Gaddafi was instrumental in preventing the kind of Mediterranean “boat people” we have now setting out from the Libyan coast. He gave them jobs in Libya instead. Perhaps that is one of the reasons he was overthrown by the colour people. I don’t understand how fellows such as Sarkozy and Cameron sleep in the night, knowing full well their role in destroying what was a functioning nation in Libya.

    • Replies: @Stan
  195. Ron Unz says:
    @Malla

    Actually the British Civil Servant exam was patterned after the Chinese one…

    You know of all the people, you Chinese are the most like us. @Everything came from [email protected]

    Actually, I think it’s widely acknowledged that the British (and the Prussians) modeled their meritocratic civil service exam system upon the Chinese example. But that may only be the tip of the iceberg. As I wrote a few years ago:

    Not only was China the first national state to utilize competitive written examinations for selection purposes, but it is quite possible that almost all other instances everywhere in the world ultimately derive from the Chinese example. It has long been established that the Chinese system served as the model for the meritocratic civil services that transformed the efficiency of Britain and other European states during the 18th and 19th centuries. But persuasive historical arguments have also been advanced that the same is even true for university entrance tests and honors examinations, with Cambridge’s famed Math Tripos being the earliest example.[11] Modern written tests may actually be as Chinese as chopsticks.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    The [11] reference was to: Ssu-yu Teng, “Chinese Influence on the Western Examination System,” Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies (Sep. 1943) pp. 267-312.

    • Thanks: Malla, showmethereal
  196. denk says:
    @trickster

    My coffee tastes better watching you thrash some of the dummies on this site LOL

    Really ?

    More like the mofo is thrashing in his own shit.

    YOu seem to have missed all the fun when I ko your soul mate ?

    Here’s the latest episode.
    https://www.unz.com/pescobar/definitive-eurasian-alliance-is-closer-than-you-think/#new_comments

    The mofo is repeating the same craps ad
    nauseam
    , nice to know you’r slurping it
    up with relish.

    It takes all kind.

    hehehehhe

  197. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    China is an existential problem for the U.S, the no 1 enemy,

    Hey mofo
    I’ve been challenging you to back up your claim while you simply keep on repeating this crap ad nauseam

    Turns out you’r right tho,

    Those chicoms make it a point to build up their mega cities …to encircle your mega naval base in Jeju SK,.

    This is really the smoking gun, mofo.

    hehehhe

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  198. Tor597 says:
    @Really No Shit

    This is the most Indian comment ever.

  199. Tor597 says:
    @Really No Shit

    Same could be said for China and Taiwan.

  200. Tor597 says:
    @Really No Shit

    Haha, this sounds like an Indian trying to manipulate the argument. Go figure.

    Indians are a much bigger threat to the west. At least Jews contribute to high culture and you get things like great art.

    With Indians, there is pretty much no redeeming characteristic there.

  201. antibeast says:
    @Anonymous

    Maybe its cultural? We like to get down to doing the job as directly as possible – in eating, this means conventional spoons, forks, knives etc.

    The East Asians developed wet-rice agriculture early on during paleolithic times which allowed them to cook and eat rice as their primary staple. Western Europeans on the other hand developed wheat and barley agriculture for cereals to be baked into bread which was their primary staple. Eating rice only requires a bowl and some vegetables to pick on the rice while eating bread requires a knife to slice it. That’s how chopsticks and knives evolved as kitchen utensils in East Asia and Western Europe, respectively. East Asians did develop chopsticks unlike Southeast Asians who traditionally used their hands to eat rice.

    Asians seem to like it when something takes focus, practice and patience, so . . . chopsticks. They don’t do it because it’s easy, they do it because it’s kinda hard, maybe.

    With rice as their primary staple, East and Southeast Asians developed rice-based cuisines which involve cooking vegetables and meat as the main entrees to the rice staple. In Western Europe, wheat and barley bread required only added toppings such as jams, butter, cheese, etc. And since making bread involves bakery, Western Europe developed a plethora of baked foods as well.

    • Replies: @Malla
  202. Smith says:

    Seems like a war of word is already a-brewing on Unz.

  203. TSS says:
    @trickster

    Monkeys, and pea-brained white supremacists like yourself, can never be taught how to use a pair of chopsticks, a skill which requires precision and dexterity with which one can pick up anything with practice. Yet an ape will feel right at home stabbing and slicing with a pair of fork and knives in their hairy hands like a savage killing beast they are! Civilized my ass!

    • LOL: antibeast
  204. Malla says:
    @KA

    Yes I agree Muslims didn’t take advantage of the education in the manner they could have despite restriction

    what restrictions? There were no restrictions against anybody wanting an English education.

    Most of the colleges ,universities technical schools in British time were located in areas dominated by upper caste Hindus .

    Yeah, but there were no restrictions against others.

    The plan was simple: having transition of Brutush rule to upper caste Hindu rule all along with no participation of common folks .

    Yeah, I guess that is what Gandhi really wanted.

    Chances of successful rebellion or unrest was nipped in the bud by Ghnadhi in 1920 .

    What successful rebellion in 1920? It was very likely it would not have succeeded just as the 1857 mutiny failed. There were just a handful of British people spread around in this vast country and yet we both Muslims and Hindus failed in defeating them.

    And as far as 1920s, well guess what, all those successful “revolutionaries” were either agents of the German Empire, Soviet Russia or ottoman Empire. Remember 1920s was close to WW1.
    What you do not know is this? “Western Empires exploiting the East” bullshit trope was first conceived in Kaiser’s Germany. During WW1. Yup. I will write about the 1920s in my next post.

    • Replies: @Malla
  205. Malla says:
    @Malla

    As you know WW1 pitted the British Empire, French Empire and the Russian Empire against the German Empire, Austro Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire. Not only did wars take place in the fields of Europe but skirmishes took place outside Europe among the colonies. For example, many German colonies in Africa were conquered by the British. Similarly due the Zionist forces in the British government wanting Palestine, the British Empire fought the Ottoman Empire and the Arab holdings of the Ottoman Empire was lost. Remember Lawrence of Arabia. Many British Indian troops were involved in the Middle Eastern campaigns. Tho i must add, lawrence of Arabia was genuinely pro-Arab and anti-Zionist and was against his own ZOG Government’s decision and that is why he “met with an accident while riding his motorcycle” and died.
    Well the Turks and the Germans thought, ‘Well if the British and French interfere in our Empires why should we not do the same to theirs?’.
    Lets begin with the Turks. We had a strange dilemma here. The political head of the Muslims was the Caliph who was the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. Very strange situation when you realize both the Empires, British and Ottoman were at war with one another, very convenient for Zion. Well the Turks decided to send agents into Muslims colonies of the British Empire (India, Egypt) and French Empire (Algeria and North Africa in general) and Russian Empire (Central Asia) to rile up the masses in the name of the Caliph. This way Allied troops will have to be diverted in the colonies to keep the peace and thus they would be off the battle field. Thus in India we had the ‘Kalifat movement’ (Kalifat from Caliph, the Ottoman Emperor) which was supposedly to rile up Muslims against the British Empire. Even Gandhi and Shankaracharya (Hindu Pope-there are 4 Adi-Shankaracharyas) along with the Ali brothers supported this Kalifat movement to get at the evul British. But this movement eventually led to the moplah massacre in South India where Muslims rioted resulting in the usual Hindu Muslim riots and killings of many Hindus. This Kalifat movement and Mooplah Rebellion, shocked the Hindus and led to the creation of right winged Hindu organisations like the RSS (Rastriya Swayam Seva Sangh or National Self Help Organization) in response to the Muslim riots. That tiny RSS has become the masive ruling power in India today. This mega fracturing in Hindu Muslim relations (which was never good but not THIS BAD) would eventually lead to the future partition of India into India and Pakistan. So the dumb idiotic actions of the Ottomans in British India led to many serious ramifications in the future. The Turks did not realize nor care that India was a social/religious powder keg which could explode anytime and which only the British skillfully kept together. That is why the idiotic actions of the Ottomans led to Hindu fundamentalist RSS and thus Modi today. Modi should thank Erdofag for this.
    Now we get the Germans. What many do not realize is that the Germans had built excellent networks in the British Empire especially India (and even Ireland, yes the Sinn Fein and the Wafd in Egypt) with the aim to sabotage the British Empire in India (& Ireland and Egypt). Well you cannot blame them because the Allies had attacked German colonies themselves, this was tit for tat. These deep networks within India originally built by German Imperial agents would be later used by another power, the Soviet Union, after the Germans lost interest after the war. The Soviet Union was hell bent on destroying the British Empire, Lenin said that the British Empire would be attacked at its extremities. But lets get back to the Germans whose actions led to the famous ‘Hindu-German conspiracy’ or the Gadar (traitor) party. Indeed the Kaiser of Germany sent letters to the royal families of India to switch their allegiance from the King Emperor of India (British Monarch) to the German Kaiser with the promise of a new German Indian Empire. Many Indian princes were interested and went to Germany but overall the Indian royal families (Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist) in general remained loyal to the Emperor. Indians working for the Kaiser German Government tried to sabotage the British Indian government. These are revolutioaries you are talking about. There are entire tomes written on this with Indian ‘revolutionaries’ supported by German and Austrian agents played cat and mouse games with British agents throughout Europe and even America.
    Hell there was even a Hindu German conspiracy trial in the USA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Hindu–German_Conspiracy_Trial

    These Gadarites were mostly Punjabis (where the German networks were one of the strongest) and in 1915 they conducted revolutionary activities in central Punjab and organised uprisings. Their presence challenged the hold of the British Empire; police surveillance in Punjabi villages increased in an attempt to crush the rebellion.
    As Nesta Webster wrote in her book ‘Surrender of Empire’
    “On March 17, that is to say, on the eve of the great German offensive, a meeting of the German-Irish Society was held at the Hotd Adlon in Berlin under the auspices of the German Government. The meeting was addressed at length by Freiherr von Stumm, representing the Imperial Foreign Office representatives of the German Wax Office and Admiralty were present, also Abdul Malitch Haniza Bey, of the Committee of Egyptian Nationalists and Young Turli Organisation in Berne ; Datta Bhupendranath, alias Dutt, head of the Berlin Indians during the War, concerned in seditious publications against Great Britain; Champakaraman Pilllai, a well-known agitator, and a number of other Indian and Egyptian sedition mongers. Dr. Chatterton-Hill and St. John Gaffney, representing Sinn Fein, were also present. Messages of congratulation were received from the Kaiser and Field-Marsh von Hindenburg.”

    • Replies: @Malla
  206. Malla says:
    @Malla

    ……..Continued from last post

    “It is important to note that at this stage the Soviet Government took no part in the movement, which was purely an alliance between a section of German Monarchists and the enemies of Great Britain. Dr. Chatterton-HiH, who, after the German revolution of November 1918, tried to get into touch with Bolshevist circles in Germany and Switzerland, found the Bolsheviks unreceptive to his scheme of co-operation between Irish Republicanism and Russian Communism. It is obvious the two ideas would not blend. Nor was Moscow inclined to support, or at any rate to finance, the programme of the V.V.V. in which Communist propaganda was not included. Gradually, however, the Bolsheviks came to realise the utility of this organisation as a means for furthering the aims of world revolution by destroying British power in India, Egypt and Ireland, and when a further meeting took place in Berlin in October 1920, Moscow had decided that Berlin should remain the centre of the Germano-Bolshevik movement in the West, where all the wires connecting anti-British and anti-Entente movements in Ireland, India and Egypt should join.”
    …snip….
    “It is important to understand that this organisation, the V.V.V., later to be known as the ” League against Colonial Oppression,” and still later as the ” League against Imperialism,” usually attributed to Moscow, is of German Monarchists origin, formed in the first instance, not for Communist propaganda, but for propaganda against French and still more British ” Imperialism.” It was not the Bolsheviks, but the Germans who, having lost their own colonies in the War, first conceived the idea of rousing the peoples of the East against their Western rulers, and raised the cry of “ colonial oppression.” It was the German Monarchists who had united the enemies of Great Britain in the German-Irish Society, which provided the nucleus for the V.V.V. and brought Irish and Indian agitators in touch with each other. It was not, in fact, until after the meeting of the V.V.V. in Berlin in January 1920, when Moscow began to take an interest in the Irish Republican movement, that in June of that year the draft of a treaty was drawn up between Sinn Fein and the Soviet Republic.”
    …snip…
    “The most violent revolutionaries were as a rule those Indians who had received some education in the West of Europe. Centers of propaganda existed both in London and Paris. In 1905, a native of West India, Shyamiji Krishnavarma, started a ” Home Rule Society ” in London, and in the following year he instituted ” India House,” which became a hot-bed of sedition, a product of which was the young Indian, Dhingra, who assassinated Sir Curzon Wyllie at the Imperial Institute on July 1, 1909.
    Unfortunately Mr. Blunt was not alone in his encouragement of sedition. A number of English men and women lent it their support. Many no doubt were sincere, believing they were helping the cause of ” freedom ” ; what they lacked was a knowledge of real conditions in India”
    …snip..
    “The truth is that, on the part of the great mass of the population, there was no spontaneous desire in the past to throw off British rule. The whole movement has been artificially engineered. The husband of the present writer, who served twenty years in India, keeping on excellent terms with Indians of all classes, never throughout this period heard a single Indian express a desire for self-government or any hostility to British rule. Indeed, the one appeal continually addressed to him was ; ” Sahib, see that my case is judged – by a Sahib and not by an Indian magistrate.”
    …snip…
    “The proportion of the Indian people consciously desiring self-government constituted only an infinitesimal fraction of the whole, but from the time of Lord Ripon’s scheme of ” Local Self-Government ” and its sequel in the proposed Ilbert Bill of 1883 for increasing the power of Indian judges and magistrates, defeated by the protests of Europeans in Calcutta, the course of British administration in India has been marked by concessions to this vocal minority, composed almost entirely of Indians educated in England. These men, drawn mainly from the hahi dass, after absorbing Western ideas on political and social questions, could find no scope for their activities on their return to their native land and consequently joined the ranks of agitators, if only as a means of advancement.
    Such was the encouragement given to the promoters of sedition that an Indian official once observed to a British officer : ” If you want to get on, you must become an agitator, and then the Government take notice of you and you may become a judge.” Thus in India as in Ireland, the same fatal policy of concession, of yielding, not to reasonable demands but to seditious agitation, helped to swell the army of malcontents. ”
    …snip….
    It was left to Imperial Germany to inaugurate the latter method of undermining British rule in India, which is now being followed out with still greater energy by the Bolsheviks of Russia. It is from the date that the latter danger arose that laxity towards sedition has acquired a greater importance.
    The German conspiracy began several years before the Great War ; Bemhardi in his book, Germany and the Next War, published in 1911, had expressed the hope of shaking British power in India. Already at that date the Germans were working in touch with Indian revolutionaries in Europe, and the Ghair Revolutionary Party had been formed by a certain Hardayal in California, spreading the doctrine that Germany would strike at England. This man was again a product of Western education. As the Morning Post observed : ” The worst of the Indian extremists come from the English-educated stratum. The two most conspicuous outrage plotters, Hardayal and Krishnavarma, both took English University honours.” The bomb thrown at Lord Hardinge in Delhi in December 1912 was the outcome of this teaching.”

    …snip…
    “Amongst other members of the ” Indian National Party ” in Berlin was a certain Heramba Lai Gupta, who became Indian agent of Germany in America and worked with two German Americans, Boehm and Wehde, in training Indians for an invasion of Burma. All three men were tried and convicted at a State trial in Chicago in November 1917. The particular mission of Wehde was to convey 20,000 dollars of German money to the revolutionaries in India.
    This Indian revolutionary society in Berlin appears to have been later in close touch, if not identical, with the V.V.V. According to the official report of its activities, it aimed at establishing a republic in India, held constant meetings attended by Turks, Egyptians, German officals. Hardayal and Chattopadhya were in daily communication with the German Foreign Office. To carry out the revolution in India, there was an Oriental Bureau for translating and disseminating seditious literature to the Indian prisoners of war in Germany. Inflammatory letters, drafted by the German Government and addressed to Indian Princes as from the German authorities, were translated and printed. A consignment of these was intercepted by British agents in Persia on its way from Bagdad to India in 1916. They had the autograph signature of the German Chancellor von Bethmann Hollweg. ” Meetings were held in Berlin in which the common objects of India and Germany were dilated upon, these meetings being sometimes presided over by highly placed German officials.”
    …snip….
    “Thus, when the Bolsheviks came into power their path had been already paved for them in the East by German agents, many of whom now passed into the service of Moscow to carry on the same anti-British propaganda, this time in the cause of world revolution.”

    • Replies: @Malla
  207. @KA

    You conveniently forget the Sepoy Uprising.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857

    Whether it was triggered (heh) by the fabled mix of cow and pig lard on the cartridges to equal opportunity offend Hindus and Muslims is apocryphal, but for decades afterwards Indian troops were only given obsolete weapons and next to no ammo, and procurement remained separate till independence.

  208. Malla says:
    @Malla

    Summary and some Key points of these posts
    1] Near WW1 period, the dying Ottoman Empire interfered within the British, French and Russian Empires to rile the Muslims against their Governments. This stupid interference in the powder keg of India led to the rise of the Hindu fundamentalist RSS which rules India now and wants India Muslim free. Boomerang. As well as led to the partition of British India into India and Pakistan.
    2] The Germans collaborated with Hindus to rile up the populations against the British Empire. They also collaborated with the Sinn Fein of Ireland and Wafd of Egypt. Both Ireland and Egypt left the British Empire in this period. The Germans were successful on that account.
    3] All that colonial “oppression” story everybody bleats and brays about (eben here on Unz) has in origins in German Monarchists of Kaiser Germany. LOL. Even that came from the West.

    From my post
    “the V.V.V., later to be known as the ” League against Colonial Oppression,” and still later as the ” League against Imperialism,” usually attributed to Moscow, is of German Monarchists origin, formed in the first instance, not for Communist propaganda, but for propaganda against French and still more British ” Imperialism.” It was not the Bolsheviks, but the Germans who, having lost their own colonies in the War, first conceived the idea of rousing the peoples of the East against their Western rulers, and raised the cry of “ colonial oppression.”

    4] Later the Soviets would get into this action for World revolution. They would use the infrastructure laid out by the German Monarchists before them.

    5] Most Indians were not anti-British Raj. The ones that were, all those revolutionaries attacking and killing British officers were all from a tiny part of the country, all England educated.

    From my posts
    ““The truth is that, on the part of the great mass of the population, there was no spontaneous desire in the past to throw off British rule. The whole movement has been artificially engineered.”
    also
    “the course of British administration in India has been marked by concessions to this vocal minority, composed almost entirely of Indians educated in England.
    also
    “As the Morning Post observed : ” The worst of the Indian extremists come from the English-educated stratum. The two most conspicuous outrage plotters, Hardayal and Krishnavarma, both took English University honours.” The bomb thrown at Lord Hardinge in Delhi in December 1912 was the outcome of this teaching.””

    Basically Western education among darkies creates anti-Western darkies. Should have let them stick to their traditional education system.

  209. Malla says:
    @techvet

    Actually you are quite right.
    Check out what Mr. Pieter Friedrich has to say. I suggest “Really no Shit” to watch them too.


    Increasing Influence of Hindutva in Local American Politics


    Hindu Nationalism’s International Interests

    What you guys do not know is that the Hindu fundamentalist RSS (Rastriya Swyamseva Sangh or National Self Help Group) has a branch in the USA and in many other Western countries called as HSS (Hindu Swyamseva Sangh or Hindu Self Help Group).
    And this HSS is becoming more and more powerful in American politics as well as the politics of many Western countries (UK, Germany, Sweden, Australia) and maybe even Singapore.
    The HSS sends tons of money from its foreign supporters back to India every year. it is increasingly becoming close and influential in politicians in the USA among both Republicans and Democrats. Tulsi Gabbard was very close to them and even got money from them.
    They are very strong in Silicon valley. Indeed Sillicon valley Indians (I have a lot of friends there) are leftists when it comes to the USA but Right winged Hindutva when it comes to India. Most of my friends in Silicon Valley are Pro Modi but anti-Trump. Nationalism for me but not for theee.
    So all that Howdy Modi or Namaste Trump did not rub on them much.
    Kinda reminds me of the slimey Zio Theosophical Society which played a big role in partly birthing Hindu fundamentalism in India but when they lot returned to the West those same Theosophists became Fabian Socialists, the Cultural Marxists before WW2. The globalist elites support Hyper nationalism in India while the same guys wanna crush nationalism in the Whitey World. Wonder Why? Also the CIA was behind a lot of Hindu gurus coming to the USA to loot and molest. Many such Hindu Gurus in India are close to the globalists.

    What is also interesting they have a big hand in getting rid of White nationalist, “Conspiracy Theorist’ etc….channels on you-tube but Hindu fundamentalist channels (some openly calling for genocide of Muslims) are never touched. Western Nationalist Channels are not kosher but Hindu fundamentalist channels are kosher allrite. I repeat Silicon valley is now a strange toxic mix of Western Leftism/Bolshevism and Hindu Fundamentalism. Ironically Hindu Fundamentalists in India are dead against Indian Communist parties like the CPI (Communist Party of India-Lennist) and CPM (Communist Party of India- Maoists). They also support the crushing the poor jungle Maoists tribals in the interior of India by the Indian mercantile caste oligarchy controlled Indian State.
    They are also against White nationalists in the West. They are against China, Muslims but pro-Zionist.

  210. @trickster

    Hi.
    I would like to respond if you’re still here. This is my first time I’m on this site/forum and getting used to it.

  211. @Astuteobservor II

    Yes hes indian. I can make out by the name and writing style. They’re a joke.

  212. antibeast says:
    @trickster

    Believe it or not, the knife and fork were likely invented in China as well. But since most Chinese eat rice together with their main dishes, knives and forks aren’t needed except for roasted meats which are cut into pieces anyway before being served in platters or skewers. In any case, forks were not in common use in Europe until the 10th century CE. Here’s the news article on the archaeological discovery:

    http://www.china.org.cn/china/2010-04/01/content_19732414.htm

    Early finds from the excavation of the tomb of China’s first emperor Qin Shihuang (259 BCE – 210 BCE) have yielded a surprising find – a knife and fork.

    Archaeologists conducting the dig – which has until now been carried out with little publicity – said that the knife and fork were among the grave goods of the emperor, bore his personal crest, and were clearly intended for his use in the afterlife.

    Experts were surprised by the find since until now it was believed that the use of chopsticks had been universal in China since the Shang Dynasty (1766-1122 BCE). The earliest known example is a pair of bronze chopsticks dating from 1200 BCE discovered near Anyang in Henan province. But it now seems that among the ruling circles of the Qin Dynasty – the first to establish a unitary Chinese state – knives and forks may have been in common use.

    The Romans were known to have used forks, but the earliest known examples date from around 200 CE, roughly 400 years after the death of China’s first emperor. They were not in common use in Europe until the 10th Century CE.

    Professor Du Yude of the Institute of Advanced Culinary Studies under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences told China.org.cn that the find raises the possibility that the favored Western eating implements were in fact invented in China.

  213. Malla says:
    @Really No Shit

    Now do you want to go down that road of Yellow Peril again? Remember what happened last time you guys went down that Yellow peril road against the Japs. Since the Germans were not biting the bait for Lusitania 2.0, your commie lovin el presidente Roosevelt became desperate and now had his sights on Japan. Cornered Japan via sanctions in such a way that Pearl harbour was bound to happen. Your president knew it would happen, he had prayed to Satan for months that it happen, arm twisted the Japanese Empire for it to happen and Pearl harbour happened. Also El presidente planning some sneaky bombing raids on Japan using KMT Chinese roundel aircrafts (diz iz before Pearl Harbour).
    White muricans went into a Yellow peril war frenzy, danced their war dances (ooga booga) to get at those evul Japs. While your cunning and smooth El Presidente FDR diverted some of that aggression against Germany. Yes the only country, a White country, your YT brothers who had broken free of banker bloodsucker control. You guys ooga boogad your way around Europe to destroy that!!! And your El Presidente funded the Bolsheviks Red army too, gave them a largese, nice spread for a Sunday afternoon in Berlin, after raping through half of Europa.
    So you guys destroyed Germany for your banker elites, your only hope and how do they banker elites show their gratitude? By unleashing ooga booga Black and Bolshevik anti-pha barbarian hordes on you guys. And not only was Germany was to be destroyed obviously as Hitler gave a big middle finger to your banker reptile masters, Japan had to be destroyed too! The Japanese Empire was standing in the way of spread of Communism, FDR’s Govt woz full of Communism (the snake Alger Hisssss) the Rockefellers were masturbating to a Communist China from when Mao was a small boy. Unless the Japanese Empire and nationalist Chinese were destroyed, how could they have a Communist China. They even arm-twisted a reluctant Stalin to this idea. So White Muricans ooga booga across the Pacific too with Radioactive lighting to end the show. So your earlier Yellow Peril war dance let to this new Yellow peril, Red Chicoms.
    Now I do not know what the relationship in between Emperor Xi’s China and ZOGMurica/ Globailist reptiles really is? Is all this tough talk kabuki? Are they both along with the Russians in the same team behind the scenes? Who knows? Or is it that the inscrutable Chinese studied the Globalists (who created their Red state in the first place), they nod their heads infront of the banker reptiles, developed their country with capital and technology help and when the Globalist Zio reptiles were about to sink their fangs in their created country, the Yellows kung fu-ed the globalist beast, and now the wounded beast is all riled up and screaming against China. I guess the Yellow Chinese are smarter than you White Muricans, who fight for your reptilian masters only for them to unleash barbarian hordes on you from time to time. LOL. A decade back when China was weaker they were singin songs of praise for Red China, yeah Capitalist CEO’s even showed their little Mao red books, now they want to attack a much stronger China!!! Wot??
    So ask this, do you wanna again turn into mercenaries for your reptilian masters one more time? Do you wanna Oooga booga across Europe and Asia again only to have anti-fa bolshevik barbarian monkey hordes ooga booga in your neighbourhoods?
    In WW2, maybe White Muricans should have made a deal with the yellow Peril Japanese and your blood brother Germans & Italians to get rid of the reptiles in Wall Street. During WW3 you can make an alliance with the Yellow Peril Chinese and your blood brother Russians to finally to free yourself from the reptiles of Wall Street. The choice is yours.

    • Thanks: dogbumbreath
    • LOL: antibeast
  214. @Deep Thought

    Which is more the reason to be leery of the dirty yellow rats like denk lest that storm turns into a full blown typhoon!

  215. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    With rice as their primary staple, East and Southeast Asians developed rice-based cuisines which involve cooking vegetables and meat as the main entrees to the rice staple.

    Hey do not leave out South Indians/Sri Lankans and East Indians/Bangladeshis too. They are the same, rice eaters. In Indian subcontinent, South and East (close to East Asia) are more rice eatins and North and West (towards direction of Middle East and Europe) are more Wheat eatin. Actually rice farming is said to have been brought to South Asia by Cambodian rice farmers.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  216. @Tor597

    Indians are a much bigger threat to the west. At least Jews contribute to high culture and you get things like great art.

    Indeed, where would we be without the likes of Rothko et al. and the gang of Jewish self-promoters?

    https://nationalvanguard.org/2010/11/jews-and-modern-art/

    [MORE]


    On a serious note, most of the threats that face the West, whether Asiatic or African, are due to the corrupting Jewish influence outlined in the magisterial Culture of Critique . There is no black problem, Chinese problem, Indian problem or Muslim problem, there is a White problem, a problem that has been brought about by the intense activism by the fellow whites to reshape our society.

    • Agree: Really No Shit
  217. @RJ Macready

    I don’t think he is, he does however have this penchant for promoting White male-East Asian female pairings and proclaiming the superiority of East Asian women to European women. I suspect he is some sort of expat living in South-East Asia.

  218. Malla says:
    @KA

    Most of the colleges ,universities technical schools in British time were located in areas dominated by upper caste Hindus .

    What???? Can you prove that? If I am not mistaken, many universities and colleges in Pakistan (which was always Muslim dominated) were built by the British India Govt.

  219. @Malla

    It always does make me chuckle when I see the chattering classes get all apoplectic about Russian interference but ignoring the sheer amount of ethnic lobbying going on by ethnic outsiders.

    In the UK, there has recently been a rift in the Labour party over the Kashmir issue, many actually think the Labour party may have lost the election last year due to a combination of Zionist smears, White working class discontent with the perceived anti-British nature of the Labour party (perceptions which are are not untrue in my opinion) *and* a drop in support from the Indian cohort.

    Interestingly, since the revocation of article 370 of the Indian constitution, many fear a demographic shift in the offing, I wonder why diversity will not be Kashmir’s strength like it is in European nations?*

    It is particularly enraging to see the same ethnic activists who welcome refugees also protest against the potential ethnic changes in Kashmir, one would imagine they would consider Modi to be the world’s leading anti-racist as he scraps the discriminatory law that prohibited outsiders from settling in Kashmir? Of course as you say, these nonwhites’ maxim is nationalism for my group but not for others.

    The West will just become a playground for various ethnic rivalries of the world, unfortunately for us native Europeans, our concerns will be relegated in favour of issues like Palestine, Kashmir and a whole host of other land disputes. The question is, will enough Whites feel the squeeze and wake up to what is happening?

    * – Jared Taylor of American Renaissance: Lefty Media Suddenly Against Immigration

    • Replies: @Malla
  220. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Hey do not leave out South Indians/Sri Lankans and East Indians/Bangladeshis too. They are the same, rice eaters. In Indian subcontinent, South and East (close to East Asia) are more rice eatins and North and West (towards direction of Middle East and Europe) are more Wheat eatin. Actually rice farming is said to have been brought to South Asia by Cambodian rice farmers.

    The Indus Valley Civilization developed an agricultural economy based on the cultivation of wheat, barley, peas and lentils which became the indigenous staple of Indians before wet-rice agriculture arrived from Southeast Asia while wheat agriculture (used to make naan bread) probably came from West Asia. Southeast Asians and South Asians did become rice eaters but they never developed the habit of using chopsticks for eating rice from a bowl, preferring to use their hands to eat rice from a banana leaf or something. East Asian’s use of rice bowls gave rise to the invention of porcelain which provided a better non-stick surface over clay or wood pottery. Simple but elegant invention.

  221. @Tor597

    “Haha, this sounds like an Indian trying to manipulate the argument. Go figure.”

    Does It? Only an obdurate moron doesn’t know when he is licked but on the other hand discerning eye knows where to regain what was lost due to the first … go figure!

  222. @JohnPlywood

    10 soldiers including 2 officers were taken prisoner which the chinese returned immediately , dumb chinese should have held them hostage like and milked it like any cunning and smart people would have.Chinese are too simple they have no idea wht psycological warfare is

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  223. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    In 1195 when Indian Raja (King) Bhim was attacked by the Muslim foreign invader Aibak 20,000 native Indian Hindu slaves were captured, and 50,000 at Kalinjar in 1202. The temples were converted into mosques, writes Hasan Nizami, and the voices of the summoners to prayer ascended to the highest heavens, and the very name of idolatry was annihilated. Minhaj Siraj assigns twenty (lunar) years to Muslim foreign invader Qutbuddin’s career in India from the first taking of Delhi up to his death, both as a commander of Sultan Muizzuddin and as an independent ruler. During this period Aibak captured the Indian regions/cities of Hansi, Meerut, Delhi, Ranthambhor and Kol. When foreign Muslim Sultan Muizzuddin personally mounted another campaign against India, Aibak proceeded as far as Peshawar to meet him, and the two together attacked the Khokhar stronghold in the Koh-i-Jud or the Salt Range. The defeated native Indian Hindus (Khokhars) fled to the highest in the mountains. They were pursued. Those that escaped the sword fled to the dense depth of the jungle; others were massacred or taken captive. Great plunder was obtained and many Indian slaves.(Minhaj 483-84.) According to Farishtah three to four hundred thousand Khokhars were converted to Islam by Muizzuddin;(Farishtah, I, 59-60) but this figure is inflated. More than a hundred years later, Amir Khusrau refers to Khokhars as a non-Muslim tribe, and the way they were constantly attacked and killed by Sultans Iltutmish and Balban confirms Khusrau’s contention.(Amir Khusrau, Tughlaq Nama, Aurangabad text, 128.) Minhaj also says that the native Khokhars were not annihilated in this affair (Muizzuddin-Aibak attack) by any means, and always rebelled and gave great trouble in after years.(Minhaj, 484n.)
    Under Aibak most of India from Delhi to Gujarat, and Lakhnauti to Lahore, was brought under the sway of the foreign Muslim Turks. In his time a large number of places were attacked and many more prisoners were captured than for which actual figures are available. Figures of slaves made during campaigns of Kanauj, Banaras (where the Muslims occupied “a thousand” temples),(Farishtah, I, 58.) Ajmer (attacked thrice), Gujarat, Bayana and Gwalior are not available. Similar is the case with regard to Bihar and Bengal. About the end of the twelfth or the beginning of the thirteenth century, Ikhtiyaruddin Bakhtiyar Khalji marched into Bihar and attacked the University centres at Nalanda, Vikramshila and Uddandpur.( Opinions differ on the date of this raid. Ishwari Prasad, Medieval India, 138, places it probably in 1197; Wolseley Haig, C.H.1, III, 45-46, a little earlier than this, and Habibullah, 70 and 84, in 1202-03.) The native common people became an easy prey to capture and enslavement. But no figures of such captives are known. Ibn Asir only says that Qutbuddin Aibak made “war against the provinces of Hind (India)” He killed many, and returned with prisoners and booty.(Ibn Asir, Kamil-ut-Tawarikh, E.D., II, 250). In Banaras, according to the same author, “the slaughter of the Hindus was immense, none was spared except women and children,” who would have been enslaved as per practice. Habibullah writes that Muslim sway extended from Banaras through the strip of Shahabad, Patna, Monghyr and Bhagalpur districts,(Habibullah, op.cit., 147) and repeated references to the presence of Muslims in this tract from the early times indicates that taking of slaves and conversion was common in the region. Fakhr-i-Mudabbir informs us that as a result of the Turkish achievements under Muizzuddin and Aibak, Eleven poor (Muslim) householder became owner of numerous slaves.(Tarikh-i-Fakhruddin Mubarak Shah, 20).

    The narratives of contemporary and later chroniclers should not lead us to the conclusion that taking of Hindus as slaves was a child’s play. There was stiff resistance to these foreign Muslim conquests and Muslim rule. Besides, the Sultans of Delhi had always to deal with a number of problems simultaneously. Most of the time of Sultan Iltutmish (1210-1236) was spent in suppressing his Turkish opponents, Qutbi and Muizzi Amirs in Delhi and rivals Yaldoz and Qubacha in Punjab and Sindh. He also faced the threat of invasion from the Mongol conqueror Chingiz (Ghenghis) Khan and the Khwarizmi Prince Jalaluddin Mangbarni fleeing before Chingiz (Ghenghis) Khan. Therefore it was only sixteen years after his accession that he could march against the native Hindu kingdom of Ranthambhor in 1226. During this period many native Hindu kingdoms subdued by Aibak were becoming independent. Mandor near Jodhpur was attacked a little later. Here “much booty fell into the hands” of the victors, which obviously included slaves also.(Minhaj, 611) The year 1231 witnessed his invasion of the native kingdom of Gwalior where he captured a large number of Indian slaves. In 1234-35 he attacked the native kingdom of Ujjain, broke its temple of Mahakal, and as usual made captives of native women and children of the recalcitrant.(Farishtah, I, 66)

  224. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Enslavement of native Indian Hindus under the foreign Islamic Tughlaqs

    All sultans were keen on making slaves, but Muhammad Tughlaq became notorious for enslaving people. He appears to have outstripped even Alauddin Khalji and his reputation in this regard spread far and wide. Shihabuddin Ahmad Abbas writes about him thus: “The Sultan never ceases to show the greatest zeal in making war upon native infidels. Everyday thousands of slaves are sold at a very low price, so great is the number of prisoners”.(Ishwari Prasad, Qaraunh Turks, 39-40 citing Battutah, Def. and Sang., II, 212-14.) Muhammad Tughlaq did not only enslave people during campaigns, he was also very fond of purchasing and collecting foreign and Indian slaves. According to Ibn Battuta one of the reasons of estrangement between Muhammad Tughlaq and his father Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq, when Muhammad was still a prince, was his extravagance in purchasing slaves. Even as Sultan, he made extensive conquests. He subjugated the country as far as Dwarsamudra, Malabar, Kampil, Warangal, Lakhnauti, Satgaon, Sonargaon, Nagarkot and Sambhal to give only few prominent place-names.(Qaraunah Turks, 96, 126, 129-30, 173.) There were sixteen major rebellions in his reign which were ruthlessly suppressed.(Mahdi Husain Tughlaq Dynasty, 195-257.) In all these conquests and rebellions, slaves were taken with great gusto. For example, in the year 1342 Halajun rose in rebellion against these foreign Muslim rulers in Lahore. He was aided by the native Khokhar chief Kulchand. They were defeated. “About three hundred women of the rebels were taken captive, and sent to the fort of Gwalior where they were seen by Ibn Battutah.” (Qaraunah Turks, 148 citing Battutah, Def. and Sang, III, 332.) Such was their influx that Ibn Battutah writes: “At (one) time there arrived in Delhi some female infidel captives, ten of whom the Vazir sent to me. I gave one of them to the man who had brought them to me, but he was not satisfied. My companion took three young girls, and I do not know what happened to the rest.”(Battutah, 123.) Iltutmish, Muhammad Tughlaq and Firoz Tughlaq sent gifts of slaves to Khalifas outside India. To the Chinese emperor Muhammad Tughlaq sent, besides other presents, “100 Hindu slaves, 100 slave girls, accomplished in song and dance” and another 15 young slaves.(Qaraunah Turks, 138-39.)
    Ibn Battutah’s eye-witness account of the Sultan’s gifting captured native Indian slave girls to foreign Muslim nobles or arranging their marriages with Muslims on a large scale on the occasion of the two Ids, corroborates the statement of Abbas. Ibn Battutah writes that during the celebrations in connection with the two Ids in the court of Muhammad bin Tughlaq, daughters of Indian Hindu Rajas (Kings) and those of commoners, captured during the course of the year were distributed among nobles, officers and important foreign slaves. On the fourth day men slaves are married and on the fifth slave-girls. On the sixth day men and women slaves are married off.(Battutah, 63; Hindi trs. by S.A.A. Rizvi in Tughlaq Kalin Bharat, part I, Aligarh 1956, 189.) This was all in accordance with the Islamic law. According to it, slaves cannot marry on their own without the consent of their proprietors.(Hamilton, Hedaya. I, 161). The marriage of an infidel couple is not dissolved by their jointly embracing the faith. In the present case the slaves were probably already converted and their marriages performed with the initiative and permission the Sultan himself were valid. Thousands of non-Muslim women (Afif, 265. also 119-120.) were captured by the Muslims in the yearly campaigns of Firoz Tughlaq, and under him the id celebrations were held on lines similar to those of his predecessor. In short, under the Tughlaqs the inflow of women captives never ceased.

    Similar was the case with males, especially of tender and young age. Firoz Tughlaq acquired them by all kinds of methods and means, so that he collected 180,000 of them. Shams Siraj Afif, the contemporary historian, writes that under Firoz, “slaves became too numerous” and adds that “the institution took root in every centre of the land”. So that even after the Sultanate broke up into a number of kingdoms, slave-hunting continued in every Muslim centre of India.

    • Replies: @Meena
  225. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Sufferings of the enslaved native Hindus due to Islamic raids

    This is the version of the slave-capturing victors. The humiliation and suffering of the victims finds no mention in Muslim chronicles. Sustained experience of grief and pain and loss of dignity and self-respect used to turn them into dumb driven animals. The practice and pattern of breaking the spirit of the captives under Aibak, Iltutmish and Balban, indeed throughout the medieval period, was the same as during the days of the Khaljis and the Tughlaqs. Only one case may be cited as an instance. Balban, when he was Ulugh Khan Khan-i-Azam, once brought to Delhi (in about 1260) two hundred fifty ‘Hindu leading men and men of position from Mewar and Siwalik, bound and shackled and chained. During the expedition he had proclaimed that a royal soldier would be rewarded with two silver tankahs if he captured a person alive and one tankah if he brought the head of a dead one. They brought to his presence 300 to 400 living and dead everyday. The reigning Sultan Nasiruddin ordered the death of all leading men. The others accompanying them were shaken to the bones and completely tamed. Depiction of their suffering is found in an Indian work – Kanhadade Prabandha. Written in old Rajasthani or old Gujarati, it was composed in mid-fifteenth century and records the exploits of native Indian Hindu King Kanhardeva of Jalor against the foreigner Alauddin’s General Ulugh Khan who had attacked Gujarat in 1299 and taken a number of prisoners. In the Sorath (Saurashtra) region they made people captive – Brahmanas and children, and women, in fact, people of all (description) huddled them and tied them by straps of raw hide. The number of prisoners made by them was beyond counting. The prisoners quarters (bandikhana) were entrusted to the care of the foreign Turks who were often extremely ruthless to native Indians. The prisoners suffered greatly and wept aloud. During the day they bore the heat of the scorching sun, without shade or shelter as they were [in the sandy desert region of Rajasthan], and the shivering cold during the night under the open sky. Children, torn away from their mother’s breasts and homes, were crying. Each one of the captives seemed as miserable as the other. Already writhing in agony due to thirst, the pangs of hunger added to their distress. Some of the captives were sick, some unable to sit up. Some had no shoes to put on and no clothes to wear. Some had iron shackles on their feet. Separated from each other, they were huddled together and tied with straps of hide. Children were separated from their parents, the wives from their husbands, thrown apart by this cruel raid. Young and old were seen writhing in agony, as loud wailing arose from that part of the camp where they were all huddled up Weeping and wailing, they were hoping that some miracle might save them even now.(Padmanabh, Kanhadade Prabandh, trs. Bhatnagar, 11, 16, 18) The miracle did happen and native Indian King Kanhardeva was successful in rescuing them from these ruthless foreign Islamic slavers after a tough fight.
    But the description provides the scenario in which the brave and the strong, the elite and the plebeian, were made captives and their spirit broken. That is how Timur was enabled to massacre in one day about 100,000 of captives he had taken prisoner on his march to Delhi. They had been distributed among his officers and kept tied and shackled. That is how Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a man of learning in Timur’s camp, slew with his own sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives. If the prisoners could break their bonds, such a carnage could not have been possible. Prisoners were often brought to Timur’s presence with hands bound to their necks.(azdi, Zafar Nama, II, 92-95; Mulfuzat-i-Timuri, trs. E.D., III, 436, 451.) Jahangir (1605-27) also writes that “prisoners were conducted to my presence yoked together.”(Tarikh-i-Salim Shahi, 165. This was the fate of the captives throughout the medieval period and therefore there is no need to cite any more instances.Most of them were kept yoked together even when they were sent out to be sold in foreign lands or markets in India.

    The captives, on their part, clung together and did not separate from one another even in their darkest hour. Nor were they permitted an opportunity to do so under Islamic law which the victors always observed with typical Muslim zeal. The Hidayah lays down that “if the Mussulmans subdue an infidel territory before any capitation tax be established, the inhabitants, together with their wives and children, are all plunder, and the property of the state, as it is lawful to reduce to slavery all infidels, whether they be Kitabees (People of the Book-Christians and Jews), Majoosees (Zoarastrians) or idotters.”(Hedaya, Hamilton, II, 213.) The Hidayah also lays down that “whoever slays an infidel is entitled to his private property,” (Hedaya, Hamilton, II, 181) which invariably included his women and children. That is how a large number of people were involved, whether it was a matter of taking captives, making converts, or ordering massacres. About women and children of a single family of a slain infidel, or of droves of slaves captured in an attack on a region or territory Fakhre Mudabbir furnishes information on, both counts during the campaigns of Muhammad Ghauri and Qutbuddin Aibak. He informs us “that during their expeditions ghulams (slaves) of all descriptions (har jins) were captured in groups and droves (jauq jauq) so that even a poor householder (or soldier) who did not possess a single slave (earlier) became the owner of numerous slaves” (Tarikh-i-Fakkruddin Mubarak Shah, ed. Denison Ross, 20.)

    In short, the captives swam or sank together so that if they were captured they were taken in large numbers. A manifest example of this phenomenon is that during a rebellion-suppressing expedition of Muhammad bin Tughlaq in the Deccan (1327), all the eleven sons of the Raja (King) of Kampil (situated on the River Tungbhadra, Bellary District, Karnataka, South India), were captured together, and made Muslims.(Battutah, 95. Ishwari Prasad, Qarunab Turks, 65-66; Mahdi Husain, Tughlaq Dynasty, 207-208.) Generally, able bodied men and soldiers were massacred, and their helpless women and children were made prisoners in large numbers or groups.(Barani, 56; Afif, 119-120; Lal, Growth of Muslim Population, 106, 113-16, 211-217 for copious references from Muslim chronicles.) Similarly, from the time of entering India, up to the time of reaching the environs of Delhi, Amir Timur had “taken more than 100,000 Indian infidels and Hindu prisoners”(Mulfuzat-i-Timuri, E.D., III, 435-36; Z.N. Yazdi II, 192, Rauzat-us-safa, VI, 109.) Timur massacred them all, but the fact that people could be made slaves in such unbelievably large numbers was due to their keeping together through thick and thin, howsoever desperate the situation. Nobody knew the reality better than Ibn Battuta who travelled in India extensively. During his sojourn he found villages after villages deserted.(Battuta, 10, 20, 155-56.) Nature’s ravages or man’s atrocities might have made them flee, or more probably they would have been enslaved and converted, or just carried away. But the fact of habitations being completely deserted shows that large groups of native Indians suffered together at the hands of ruthless barbaric foreign Islamic invaders and did not forsake one another in times of trial and tribulation. This factor swelled the number of slaves.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
  226. @Deep Thought

    Merely diversion until the election, thereafter, it will be back of the line, like in all things …

  227. @Malla

    I had in mind the old movie “Singapore”. Not because there were whites… But it was the similar type of attitude between the “subordinate” and superior.

  228. @britausnzbrainsize1325ccsnicker

    Yeah they were trying to let the Indians save face… But they seemed to fail to realize the Indian media is much like western media and love to milk incidents and control the narratives.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    , @Brian Damage
  229. I gotta ask, how many anons here understand China already withstood a full on economic war meant to completely control all the money making parts of the Chinese economy back in 2015?

    Remember all the talks about capital/money flight out of China? That was suppose to empty the Chinese foreign reserve. Once the reserve hits rock bottom, the USD that flew out would double back and buy everything valuable in China for pennies on the dollar. This is also a function of the fed interest rate hikes.

    Even the retarded freedom of navigation sails in the SCS were all attempts at scaring the hot money(money flow) to get out of China into USA. Yes retards, it was mainly about taking over the Chinese economy.

    If that succeeded, China would have been a worst version of Argentina starting 2016.

    China staved off that by letting the housing prices it was keeping under control to rise, soaking in all that money. Capital flights all crashed and burned. China still lost 25% of its foreign reserve even though it won. And created a big housing market Bubble. This bubble is why the Chinese stock market prices stayed low all these years.

    So USA went to europe and gutted Greece. And yes, that was the reason. This harvest needs to happen about every 10 years for the USA to sustain it Self. You could even argue that the released of covid 19 was also a direct response to the failed harvesting of the Chinese economy. If we can’t have it, let’s destroy it.

    USA can do the harvest because of the petrodollar status of USD. So the Iran and China 25 deal is a huge deal. Bigger than even I thought it was. Cause if China can secure it’s oil and gas needs outside of USD, it would have zero need for it’s huge USD = completely immune to future harvest attempts.

    Chinese are fucking winning this economic war for sure. Since it forced USA to open robbery. IE tiktok forced sale.

    India isn’t even in the same ballpark or continent where all this is concerned.

  230. @Daemon

    The Indians took prisoners in the skirmish. Chinese on the other hand took mostly death. The world is going to seem ‘moronic’ when blindfold yourself, clasp your hands over your ears and listen only to what the voices in your head are saying.

  231. @showmethereal

    Save face? You mean the +35 Chinese soldiers that got their faces caved in by Indian war clubs?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @showmethereal
  232. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Isn’t that one of those lies that make people to lie more ?
    What can lately anyone believe about India? GDP,Covid-19 spread by Muslims, application of national security laws to Muslim for flouting social distancing and celebrating the flouting by Hindu preachers leaders and party members, making threat to Pakistan Nepal ,claiming being the most tolerant peaceful nation in the same paragraph ,ignoring the fate of the farmers and the migrant workers,conducting and maintaining worst surveillance on Kashmir and Nagaland but claiming to be exercising the highest for of democracy ,selling national asset to the donor class and buying the opposite party members with the same money are some of the inherent perpetual eternal manifestation of the lies peddled by Indian ruling Hindu elite throughout the centuries.

    It is system Hinduism is a system India is the vehicle Upper caste uses the malformed history , co-opted deities ,narrative of the existing power and the fatalism introduced by the Brahmans to control coerce and guide the sheep known as Hindu. It is the worst from of paganism . Nevr seen to thsi extent among Amazon tribe or Paupa New Guinea or Africa .

    The religious yoke imposed this way keeps the caste from revolting against t the tyranny of the Brahmin Now they dont roll dice or make Delphi like oracle from the smoke of the incense or interpret the motion of the moon or the wind to the king and layman Now they control by being in charge of the education and the economy .

    Caste Hindus have no recourse but to follow them like the goat follows the leader to the cliff .

    • Agree: showmethereal
  233. @denk

    Are you one those feminine chinaboy who wishes he was born a girl or better yet do you dress up in 母亲 clothes? Your hubris will be the downfall of China… it’ll be cataclysmic 混蛋!

  234. @Astuteobservor II

    “India isn’t even in the same ballpark or continent where all this is concerned.”

    And that is key reason it won’t be molested while your darling China is going to be brutally sodomized… now do you understand that the reigning hegemon won’t be caught unawares in the Thucydides’ trap!

  235. @Astuteobservor II

    “India isn’t even in the same ballpark or continent where all this is concerned.”

    In addition to all of your excellent summary, we need to ask ourselves how many countries is India the largest trading partner of?

    … but then again what could we expect of a country where 50% of its citizens (in the towns and villages) still defecate in the streets?

    Thats ~650 million people, btw!!!

    And for the Hindutva element in this thread, remember India has a space ‘program’ but still cannot lift the majority of its poor out of poverty.

    https://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/china-top-trade-partner-2x-america.png,

    Regards

  236. Vidi says:
    @Really No Shit

    And that is key reason [India] won’t be molested while your darling China is going to be brutally sodomized…

    Ask yourself why the US is reduced to little pinpricks like banning Huawei and stealing TikTok. It’s because the US is unable to do much of anything else against the Middle Kingdom, financially, economically, or militarily.

    Furthermore, the US’s economy (like India’s) will shrink by double digits this year and probably by significant amounts in each of the next few years. The pain will be extreme. Of course, the Chinese GDP will grow.

    So dream on about the global hegemon “brutally sodomizing” China. The US will be doing well to not fall apart over the next few years.

  237. @Malla

    1) Aibak and the other central asian turkic warlords come from a warlike culture, so their behavior isn’t really surprising. Genghis was the grand daddy of all warlords and his descendants (some of which converted to Islam) followed in his footsteps

    2) Aibak grew up as a slave so his behavior isn’t too surprising.

    3) Aibak was seen in a positive light by his contemporaries and Nizami isn’t taken seriously by modern historians.

    4) I never said the foreigners didn’t commit any atrocities, just that Hindus exaggerate the extent of the carnage. When the west put an end to slavery, many african economies collapsed because exporting slaves was their primary means of sustenance. The Central Asians never disrupted Indian ‘society’ in such a way. Cities were being built, highways constructed (Grand Trunk road rebuilt by Sher Khan) the rupee currency established, monuments built etc. Life went on.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  238. @Vidi

    “… the US’s economy (like India’s) will shrink by double digits this year …”

    I rest my case … PBS Newshour reported this very evening that gunfire has been exchanged in the border areas between China and India, something which hasn’t happened since 1975.

    Now we may use India, which has begun to see chinaman as its true enemy more so than Pakis, but come hell or high water, the Middle fucking Kingdom is done for and that you can take it to the chinaman’s bank to make a deposit!

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @antibeast
  239. @I'm Tyrone

    “Genghis was the grand daddy of all warlords and his descendants (some of which converted to Islam) followed in his footsteps”

    All twelve (alleged descendants) million motherfuckers have been converted to beastly Islam and almost all live in Central Asia and there are no real Khans among the “black” Bengalees or the “white” Pakis, in spite of the penchant to adopt KHAN as a last name among the moronic converts of the Subcontinent!

  240. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    just that Hindus exaggerate the extent of the carnage.

    Yes that is true. We Hindus exaggerate the extent. Muslims (and Indian Marxists) downplay it but the reality is in between. Also you must realize that, Islam does sanction holy war to spread Islam among the non believers as according to them Koran is the correct message from God. But that was only legal when there was a Caliph. Today there is no Caliph (Baghdadi was most probably a Mossad guy) so Muslims cannot launch any such holy war until a Caliph comes.
    There is one more ploy behind all this exaggeration. The Brahmanical elements in India want to bring back their Manu Smruti Dharma back which was destroyed by British Raj, of Brahmins lording over lower castes. Not all Hindutvas are Brahmanicals, many look to this movement as just a way to fight for their religion, and many Brahmans themselves do not support this Brahmanical conspiracy, indeed many liberal Brahmins oppose this. These westernized liberal Brahmins are hated by the Hindutva gang anyways. In India today, if you as Muslim support BJP, you are a Hindu according to them but if you as a Hindu oppose BJP, you are a Muslim according to them. Behind Hindutva are hidden Brahmanical and Zionist forces.
    So of they want to bring back their Manu Smruti rule, the thing is thanks to Western education, lower castes are not fools anymore. Western education created giants like Ambedkar, Periyar etc… So it will not be easy imposing the Manu Smruti system on the lower castes of today as they did on their ignorant ancestors.
    But after creating a Hindutva India, they slowly start pushing Manu Smruti, then even the Hindutva supporting lower castes would leave Hindusism, may go to Buddhism (as Ambedkar had done), Islam or Christianity.The thing is, the Brahmanical forces are confident about absorbing Buddhism, Jainins or Sikhism, they have absorbed Buddhism and even Jainism up to some extent in the past, Islam and Christianity as Abrahamic faiths are non digestible by pagan Hinduism.
    That is why their desire to abolish Islam and Christianity in India. So that when they impose their Manu Smruti law, the lower caste folks would not have any religion to escape to. Hence promoting Islam and Christianity as foreign religions in our holy Motherland. Up to some extent this is true, they are foreign imports but the main objective behind all this is what I have explained above. This is one more reason why the Hindutvas oppose the Aryan Invasion theory (proved beyond doubt by science now) because some elements of Hinduism (Vedic) have originated outside India too and have similarities with Zoarastrianism and pre-Christian European paganism. Hell even pre Buddhist Tibetan native Bon religion has some few influence on Purannic Hinduism. Lord Shiva’s holy abode is in Tibet in Kailash mountain which too was a holy place of Tibetan Bon as well as for Lama Buddhism. It may even be that the term Shiva or ‘Shiba’ came from Kiratas (Nepalese) or Tibet. Tibet/ Nepal is quite close to the Gangetic home of Puranic Hinduism.
    But anyways if part of Hinduism itself came outside of the Indian Subcontinent (Holy Motherland) how is it that they can call Islam and Christianity foreign. that is why the Hindutva right oppose the Aryan Invasion Theory so much.
    But guess what, Manu Dharma or Manu Smruti is basically the ‘Law of Man’ as the Sage Manu is the ancestor of all mankind (like Noah in Abrahamic faiths). Interestingly according to ancient pagan Germanians, the ancestor of all mankind was Mannus. Hence the term for male human, ‘Man’ in English and Germanic languages match the term of male human in North Indian Sanskrit-Prakrit descended languages, in India it is ‘Manav’, ‘Manushya’, ‘Manus’. Mankind in Hindi is ‘Manav Jati’. That itself points to an Aryan connection. LOL.

    • Replies: @haha
  241. antibeast says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Remember all the talks about capital/money flight out of China? That was suppose to empty the Chinese foreign reserve. Once the reserve hits rock bottom, the USD that flew out would double back and buy everything valuable in China for pennies on the dollar. This is also a function of the fed interest rate hikes.

    That happened due to two things:

    1). Xi’s rise to power and his anti-corruption campaign against “tigers” and “flies”;
    2). China’s need to “let off steam” in its balance-of-payments to stabilize its currency against both capital flight out of and speculative capital moving into China;

    After Xi assumed power in 2012, he immediately proceeded to consolidate his power by going after the Dengist Kleptocracy who were in bed with the Western Globalists. Part of the capital flight had to do with their ill-gotten wealth seeking safe haven in Western countries.

    The second reason had to do with the excessive foreign reserves piling up on the balance sheet of the PBoC which peaked at $4T back in 2014. China decided to “invest” those excess dollars in fixed assets all over the world. Instead of buying T-bills, China also decided to trim its holdings allowing Japan to surpass China as the number one holder of T-bills since the 2000s.

    China staved off that by letting the housing prices it was keeping under control to rise, soaking in all that money. Capital flights all crashed and burned. China still lost 25% of its foreign reserve even though it won. And created a big housing market Bubble. This bubble is why the Chinese stock market prices stayed low all these years.

    Not true at all. China did the exact opposite by imposing real-estate curbs since 2010. This was done to dampen excessive real-estate speculation which arose in part due to excess liquidity caused by the massive flood of both export receipts as well as speculative capital moving into China after the GFC in 2008.

    So USA went to europe and gutted Greece. And yes, that was the reason. This harvest needs to happen about every 10 years for the USA to sustain it Self. You could even argue that the released of covid 19 was also a direct response to the failed harvesting of the Chinese economy. If we can’t have it, let’s destroy it.

    Greece was caused by the Eurozone debt crisis which was part of the Global Financial Crisis of 2008. Even though the US initiated the GFC, the Eurozone debt crisis involving the PIIGS had more to do with excess lending to and public overspending as well as real-estate speculation by the PIIGs which forced the ECB to bail them out. The US Fed played a minor role because the Eurozone debts are denominated in Euros not dollars.

    Covid-19 is just a ploy to destroy Trump’s chances for reelection by gutting the US economy. While most major economies have yet to open their factories, China has recovered fully from Covid-19 and just reported its largest factory output and manufacturing exports in 10 years!!!

    USA can do the harvest because of the petrodollar status of USD. So the Iran and China 25 deal is a huge deal. Bigger than even I thought it was. Cause if China can secure it’s oil and gas needs outside of USD, it would have zero need for it’s huge USD = completely immune to future harvest attempts.

    Yes and no. The Wall Street Globalist Elites can and do harvest its Petrodollar wealth by plundering the capital assets of both Western and non-Western countries using financial speculation with Fed-printed “helicopter” dollars courtesy of Bernanke’s QE policies. Since the PBoC has a restricted capital account, Wall Street financial speculators such as George Soros have no way of attacking the capital markets of China. They have to go through the current account which is limited to two-way trade between China and the rest of the world. And that means financial sanctions such as those involving Iran which has failed to restrain China as it just landed a $400B deal there. What this implies is that China has the means to circumvent the Petrodollar by trading directly for oil in exchange for exports or investment.

    In reality, it was the USA that got raided the most by Wall Street Globalist Elites during Obama’s and now Trump’s tenure which has caused US public debt to reach $26T as of today. This has massive implications for the status of the USD as the international reserve currency as its value declines due to money printing by the Fed. This is why gold, Bitcoin, etc. have gained in popularity as the world’s asset managers begin searching for alternative assets to USD financial assets.

    Lastly, for all the political rhetoric about the economic relationship between the USA and China, the on-the-ground reality is that China’s industrialized economy is largely orthogonal to the financialized economy of the USA because of the forced decoupling caused by the GFC in 2008. Much of so-called “outsourced manufacturing” has since moved on to lower-cost developing countries outside of China whose costs have risen over the years. This is another reason why Trump’s trade war has had little effect on China’s economy although it did have a significant impact on US manufacturers, importers and distributors who are now forced to source their manufactured imports from all over the world instead of just one country.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    , @Malla
  242. @Really No Shit

    I thought you were just some retarded old fart trying to keep the American imperial dream alive. You are just an angry old retard like derbyshire.

    What part of China won the 2015 economic war didn’t you understand?

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  243. @antibeast

    Just FYI.

    The contents of that comment are 100% facts, it isn’t my opinion, so it isn’t up for debate.

    And yes, I am that confident.

    Of course it lacks details but I am not about to write a 10000 word comment as a reply. Thanks for your effort though.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  244. @Vidi

    This is the problem with Chinese anons.

    Why would you bother to reply to the most stupid point of his comment?

    Learn to shit on him and all his comments. I cannot believe you are still trying to reason with the giant retard.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  245. anon[244] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Hinduvatta BJP RSS brigands have learnt a lot with and without being invited by the Zionist . They sure learnt this liberalism universalism to be restricted to abroad and utter racist conservatism to be applied at home .
    Babylonian returnees did the same and destroyed Persia but didn’t develop anything at home .

  246. Vidi says:
    @Really No Shit

    “… the US’s economy (like India’s) will shrink by double digits this year …”

    I rest my case … PBS Newshour reported this very evening that gunfire has been exchanged in the border areas between China and India, something which hasn’t happened since 1975.

    Now we may use India, which has begun to see chinaman as its true enemy more so than Pakis, but come hell or high water, the Middle fucking Kingdom is done for and that you can take it to the chinaman’s bank to make a deposit!

    You are assuming that the gunfire story is not a lie. But even if true, an exchange of warning shots (link) is not a war. Note that there was no war in 1975.

    If your insane response is any indication, then it’s true that the Indians are their own biggest enemies. Some of India’s major problems:

    (a) A crashing economy.
    (b) A huge increase in Covid-19 infections.
    (c) A locust infestation.

    You want to add a major war? If you do, you’re insane.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  247. @Tor597

    … and for those who can recall, before that it was India Superpower 2000!

    Regards

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  248. Vidi says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    This is the problem with Chinese anons.

    Why would you bother to reply to the most stupid point of his comment?

    Learn to shit on him and all his comments. I cannot believe you are still trying to reason with the giant retard.

    RNS is probably an American — or an American stooge — attempting to incite some hatred between the Indians and the Chinese. I wanted to encourage the Indians to stop and think and not react emotionally.

  249. antibeast says:
    @Really No Shit

    And that is key reason it won’t be molested while your darling China is going to be brutally sodomized… now do you understand that the reigning hegemon won’t be caught unawares in the Thucydides’ trap!

    Sodomy? Molested? Forget about the Thucydides’ trap and pray tell about your gay porn fantasy becoming true in the … US military!!!

    That’s called “service” in the US military! Amen! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!

  250. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    After Xi assumed power in 2012, he immediately proceeded to consolidate his power by going after the Dengist Kleptocracy who were in bed with the Western Globalists

    That may explain everything. Thanks.

  251. antibeast says:
    @Really No Shit

    Now we may use India, which has begun to see chinaman as its true enemy more so than Pakis, but come hell or high water, the Middle fucking Kingdom is done for and that you can take it to the chinaman’s bank to make a deposit!

    What happened to your gay porn fantasy? You mean White goyim like you are no longer willing to get brutally sodomized by your Wall Street globalist elites? Brown sepoys are pretty useless for gay porn fantasies as the Wall Street globalist elites prefer your nice, cute, little White azzes to get sodomized and brutalized by Big Black Cocks while you enjoy your White privilege as a gay porn star in the USA!

  252. antibeast says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Yes, I agree. But I decided to add more details to your retort so that the stupid goyim here would learn something about how the global economy really works instead of masturbating to stupid shit like: “wewuznumberone!”.

  253. @Really No Shit

    Delusional bad taste and Indian nationalism. Watch “India 2030”

    • Replies: @Malla
  254. techvet says:
    @Really No Shit

    you are either too naive or being apparently facetious. Are you an Indian btw? Why are you trying to defend them? They’ll complete the task that the ashkenaz set upon. Unless something happens you can take this to the bank

    The only thing differentiating both these groups is that the Ashkenaz has an inbuilt civilizational hatred of white European peoples. Besides that not much. And secondly by then the white man would have lost his numerical supremacy (which is fast eroding)

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Really No Shit
  255. techvet says:
    @Malla

    Steve Sailer had an blog post on it. Most Hindus identify with the democrats in the US and some at best (or worst??) shill for “establishment conservatism” aka shilling for ziocons, mass *legal* immigration and continued outsourcing. Ethnic nationalism for me (back home) while cuck globalism for thee in the US

    • Replies: @anon
  256. denk says:

    quiz…
    what happens when you keep murkkans
    in the dark and feed them bushit all day long. ?

    Ans…
    They become shitheads, wouldnt want anything else except cow dung, which their INdian cousins are only too willing to dish out.

    LIke…

    ‘If not for India, Nepal would’ve been gobbled up by China long ago’

    more gems…

    Indian
    ‘China is sponsoring Maoists insurgency in Nepal to topple the monarchy’

    Marten the murikkan dummy
    ‘wow, thanks a lot, we learn something new every day’

    ROTFLMAO
    The idiots thank their Indian cousins for feeding them more exquisite cow dung !

    A tragedy I couldnt bear to watch, out of pity I told the dummies…

    ‘look you idiots,
    Nepal managed to stay independent only bcos of China.
    In the neighborhood, All the seven sisters, Sikkim, BHutan have been gobbled up by India, even far away Singapore has been WMMed.

    And get this into your thick head, just bcos someone has beards doesnt means you call him dad., so just bcos its MaOists doesnt mean he’s Panda hugger

    Those Maoists were trained and harbored in India, Delhi’s proxy army to regime change Nepal.
    And irony of irony, they didnt like Beijing one bit.

    From the horse mouth…

    India,. Permitting training camp for the Nepali Maoist insurgents and helping Nepal fight the Maoists at the same time is the worst form of duplicity, which the world community would not fail to take note.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20080626014339/http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishweekly/spotlight/2005/jan/jan28/editorial.htm

    Justin Raimondo

    The Chinese, for their part, are not only concerned about the Tibetan resistance, but also quite nervous about the Maoist insurgency that has taken over anywhere from 7 to 40 provinces – depending on whom you believe – 5 years after announcing the start of their “people’s war.” For – irony of ironies! – the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) (CPN[M]), which launched the insurgency, is no friend of the current Chinese government.

    https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2001/06/11/chaos-in-katmandu/

    Raimondo RIP
    Someone should perform an autopsy on the guy.

    whaddaya know, the mofo deleted all my posts, my account and….called me ‘tiananmen butcher, no less’

    Tianamen butcher ?

    Do these stupid cunts even know what the fuck they are talking about ?
    They dont call them [[[five liars]]] for nuthin.
    IMagine, John perfidious Derby has the fucking cheek to call China…Land of lies !!!!

    Serve me right .
    shithead only take shits, try serving them
    honey they’d simply vomit out and curse you
    for trying to poison them.

    Marten the murkkan dummy to Indian cousin

    thanks a lot, we learn something new from you everyday

    heheheh

    mAY BE we should just leave the poor dears to wallow in their own shit .
    It doest pay to be kind these days.

    Its their life, IF THEY enjoy it, why should we care.
    Except….the crazies are squatting on the world’s largest nuke arsenals and ready to kill/.

    OFMG

    —————-
    I didnt make all this shit up, its all here,
    murkkans and their Indian cousins exchanging bushits with cow dungs.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1336484/posts?q=1&;page=1

  257. Malla says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    – Jared Taylor of American Renaissance: Lefty Media Suddenly Against Immigration

    Thanks, very good video about the hypocrisy of the Western Left. The Western left is not about equality, not about World peace but hatred for the West genetically and culturally. Capice. Maybe they all should be dumped in some Third World country. You luvi luvi the Third World, one way ticket to the Third World, no need to transform First World society into Third World.

    *and* a drop in support from the Indian cohort.

    That is why Multi racialism. Most immigrants do not give up their tribalism once the cross the border. Westerners somehow thought they will all become Westerners. The World does not work that way for whatever reason.
    And here in comes my other theory, to stop Western neo imperialism, multi culturalism and multiracialism have gotta be rolle dback. there is no other way. because the new tribes in the West will use their clout sneaky financial, oooga booga riots on the street etc.. to force Western govt to get involved in their sides.
    For example when Sri Lanka finished off the LTTE tamils, many tamils in the Uk attacked busnesses owned by Sinhalese. And used their clout to force the UK Govt to interfer in the issue. Sri lanka shot back that this was a kind of colonialism of the British Govt, but the british govt was doing that because of the clout of the dark Tamils back home. They were stuck in between the Tamils in the UK and the Sri Lankan Govt. Thus even if Westerners want, Western interference around the world will not stop, the other tribes inside the West will never allow that. They would like to use the power of the West in their tribal wars.

    Also about the Kashmir thing, there is a group called Friends of BJP in the UK who hob nob with the British political elites!!!! That would be unthinkablein India. Imagine a “Friends of Conservatives” or a “Friends of BNP” , hell even a “Friends of Labour” in India!!! Indians would be screaming and screeching about foreign interference in India. But our groups doing the same abroad is alrite. Yeah. Priti Patel has become an important political figure in the UK. Indians proud abut dat, But they cannot accept a foreign born Sonia Gandhi. All kinds of conspiracy theories about Sonia Gandhi being an agent of the Pope trying to keep India down.

    nonwhites’ maxim is nationalism for my group but not for others.

    Yup.

    The question is, will enough Whites feel the squeeze and wake up to what is happening?

    Well the numbers have definitely increased from the past decade ago. It should have happened when Mr. Enoch Powell had given his ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech. You guys would not have to face all these problems today then. A little bit of tribalism back then would have led to much less head ache today.

  258. @Patagonia Man

    You’re too dumb to warrant a comment but see my retort to @Tor597 … right above!

    • Replies: @Patagonia Man
  259. @Astuteobservor II

    And which part of the vengeance that we’ll extract from China for upsetting the cart that you do NOT understand, punk?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  260. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Hindus exaggerate the extent of the carnage.

    The Carnage may have been exaggerated but it was no joke either. This is what pisses of Hindus, the downplaying of the genocide that took place by the Islamic invaders. Also nearly all Hindus today would be very uncomfortable to the idea of living under our Islamic rulers, if it could be repeated again. This is even if our history texts books (pre-Modi) in Indian schools are actually vehemently anti-British propaganda and not anti-Islamic rulers at all. Even then.

    From my posts
    “Nobody knew the reality better than Ibn Battuta who travelled in India extensively. During his sojourn he found villages after villages deserted.”

    …snip….

    “Children were separated from their parents, the wives from their husbands, thrown apart by this cruel raid. Young and old were seen writhing in agony, as loud wailing arose from that part of the camp where they were all huddled up Weeping and wailing, they were hoping that some miracle might save them even now.”

    …snip….

    “In Banaras, according to the same author, “the slaughter of the Hindus was immense, none was spared except women and children,” who would have been enslaved as per practice. ”

    …snip….

    Indeed so much was the rape of Hindu women that Rajput women would jump into fire to protect their honour in case of fears of falling into the hands of the Islamic hordes. It was called Jauhar. The wives and children burnetup, the men would go and fight till the death, that is called the practice of Saca (maybe the term came from their Scythian ancestors-Saca).

    Also

    Sultan Alauddin’s collection of slaves was a matter of successful routine. Under him the Sultanate had grown so strong that, according to Shams Siraj Afif, in his days “no one dared to make an outcry.” Similar is the testimony of the Alim and Sufi Amir Khusrau. In Nuh Sipehr he writes that “the Turks, whenever they please, can seize, buy or sell any native Hindu.” No wonder, under him the process of enslavement went on with great vigour. As an example, he had 50,000 slave boys in his personal service (Afif, 272) and 70,000 slaves worked continuously on his buildings.(Barani, 341.) It is Barani alone who writes about the number of slaves working on buildings and Afif alone who speaks about the personal “boys” of Sultan Alauddin who looked after his pigeons. Ziyauddin Barani’s detailed description of the Slave Markets in Delhi and elsewhere during the reign of Alauddin Khalji, shows that fresh batches of captives were constantly arriving there.(Barani, 318; Lal, Khaljis, 214-15)

    There was thus no let up in the policy of slave-taking. Minhaj Siraj writes that Ulugh Khan Balbans “taking of captives, and his capture of the dependents of the great Ranas (native Hindu Rajput Lords) cannot be recounted”. Talking of his war in Avadh against native king Trailokyavarman of the Chandela dynasty (Dalaki va Malaki of Minhaj), the chronicler says that “All the infidels wives, sons and dependents and children fell into the hands of the victors.” In 1253, in his campaign against the native Hindu kingdom of Ranthambhor also, Balban enslaved many people. In 1259, in an attack on Haryana region of India, many women and children were enslaved.(Minhaj 680, 683, 391, 828; E.D., II, 348, 367, 371, 380-81, Farishtah, I, 73.) Twice Balban led expeditions against the native Indian regions of Kampil, Patiali, and Bhojpur, and in the process enslaved a large number of women and children. In Katehar he ordered a general massacre of the male population of over eight years of age and carried away women and children. In 658 H. (1260 C.E.) Ulugh Khan Balban marched with a large force on a campaign in the region of Ranthambhor, Mewat and Siwalik. He made a proclamation that a soldier who brought a live captive would be rewarded with two silver tankahs and one who brought the head of a dead one would get one silver tankah. Soon three to four hundred living and dead were brought to his presence.(Farishtah, I. 73.) Like Balban other slave commanders of Iltutmish, or the “Shamsia Maliks of Hind” were marching up and down the Hindustan, raiding towns and villages and enslaving native Indian people.

    To be honest, the Uzbak Mughals even Emperor Aurangzeb were far better than the Turkish Delhi Sultanate before them.

    Also

    In 1365, 500,000 inhabitants were massacred in all the districts surrounding Vijayanagara by the Bahmani Sultanate soldiers. In Raichur Doab alone, 70,000 Hindus were massacred by the army of the Bahmani Sultanate in response to killing of the garrison of Mudgal.

    In 1353, Firuz Shah invaded Bengal after it rebelled and paid for the 180,000 heads of Hindus massacred by his soldiers

    Of course Hindus were not angels either

    During the 1741-1751, Hindu Maratha expeditions in Bengal Subah, over 400,000 people were killed in Bengal and Bihar including textile workers, merchants and other inhabitants.

    Though I must add that these medieval figures could be exaggerations.

    On a different note, Emperor Aurangzeb wrote a letter to his son to go see the caves of Elephanta full of Hindu and Buddhist sculptures as they are worthy of praise. So he did not tell his son to destroy it, just to see it as a tourist. But guess who destroyed the Buddhist sculptures in those caves? The Hindus under Shankara. And who renovated the caves, the British. So yes, the Muslims rulers, especially the Mughals had a good side to them. They were far better than the earlier Delhi Sultanate Emperors.

    Aibak and the other central asian turkic warlords come from a warlike culture, so their behavior isn’t really surprising

    Well blaming it all on Central Asians/ Turks while denying the Holy War aspect is not right.
    From Ibn Khaldun’s Muqqadimah

    “In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united in (Islam), so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them 408 at the same time. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. ”
    …snip…

    “He sent him on a raid against Oman, and he learned (later that he had raided it by sea). 522 He disapproved of his having made the raid by sea, and told him so in no uncertain terms. Thus it remained until Mu’awiyah’s reign. He permitted the Muslims to go by sea and to wage the holy war in ships. The reason for this was that on account of their Bedouin attitude, the Arabs were at first not skilled in navigation and seafaring, whereas the Byzantines and the European Christians, on account of their experience of the sea and the fact that they had grown up traveling in ships, were used to the sea and well trained in navigation.”

    …snip….

    “Their own experience of the sea and of navigation grew, and they turned out to be very expert. They wished to wage the holy war by sea. They constructed ships and galleys and loaded the fleet with men and weapons. They embarked the army and fighters to fight against the unbelievers across the sea. This was the special concern of the provinces and border regions closest to the shores of the Mediterranean, such as Syria, Ifriqiyah, the Maghrib, and Spain. The caliph ‘Abdal-Malik recommended to Hassan b. anNu’man,523 the governor of Ifriqiyah, that a shipyard 524 be set up in Tunis for the production of maritime implements, as he was desirous of waging the holy war.”

    …snip…

    “During all that (time), the Muslims were gaining control over the largest part of the high sea. Their fleets kept coming and going, and the Muslim armies crossed the sea in ships from Sicily to the great mainland opposite Sicily, on the northern shore. They fell upon the European Christian rulers and made massacres in their realms. This happened in the days of the Banu Abul-Husayn,530 the rulers of Sicily, who supported the ‘Ubaydid(-Fatimid) propaganda there.”

    …snip….

    “He went on to Marrakech, and was received there by the caliph Yusuf al-‘Ashrt b. ‘Abd-al-Mu’min
    535 with great kindness and honor. (The caliph) gave him many presents and entrusted him with command of his fleet. (As commander of the fleet) he went to wage the holy war against the Christian nations. He did noteworthy and memorable deeds during the Almohad dynasty.”

    …snip….

    “We have mentioned the strength that a line formation behind the army gives to the fighters who use the technique of attack and withdrawal. Because of (this fact), the Maghribi rulers have come to employ groups of European Christians in their army, and they are the only ones to have done that, for their compatriots know only the technique of attack and withdrawal. The position of the ruler is
    strengthened by establishing a line formation in support of the fighting men ahead of it. The men in such a line formation must be people who are used to hold firm in closed formation. If not, they will run away like the men who use the technique of attack and withdrawal, and, when they run away, the ruler and the army will be routed. Therefore, the rulers of the Maghrib had to use soldiers from a nation used to hold firm in closed formation. That nation was the European Christians. The line formation around their (army) is formed by European Christians. The Maghribi rulers do that despite the fact that it means utilizing the aid of unbelievers. They do not think much of it, because the necessity (of using such men) exists, as we have shown. They fear that their own line formation might run away, and (they know that) the European Christians know only how to hold firm, because it is their custom to fight in closed formation. They are, therefore, more suitable for the purpose than others. However, the Maghribi rulers employ (such European Christians) only in
    wars against Arab and Berber nations, in order to force them into submission. They do not use them for the holy war, because they are afraid that they might take sides against the Musliras. Such is the situation in the Maghrib at this time. We have shown the reason for it. “God knows everything.” 629″

    ..snip….

    “The inhabitants of those lands are Berber tribes and groups. The first victory of Ibn Abi Sarh 52 over them and the European Christians (in the Maghrib) was of no avail. They continued to rebel and apostatized time after time. The Muslims massacred many of them. After the Muslim religion had been established among them, they went on revolting and seceding, and they adopted dissident (Kharijite) religious opinions many times. Ibn Abi Zayd 53 said that the Berbers in the Maghrib revolted twelve times and that Islam became firmly established among them only during the governorship of Musi b. Nusayr and thereafter. This is what is meant by the statement reported on the authority of ‘Umar, that “Ifriqiyah ‘divides’ 54 the hearts of its inhabitants.” The statement refers to the great number of tribes and groups there, which causes them to be disobedient and unmanageable. ”

    Today there is no Caliph and hence such offensive Holy War cannot be waged by Islamic Law. The Last Caliph was the last Ottoman Sultan.

    Cities were being built, highways constructed (Grand Trunk road rebuilt by Sher Khan) the rupee currency established,

    That is true, the Muslims did bring a lot of new ideas to India. They also were also the first in India to write proper history. We Hindus before them had no proper written history only wierd mythological tales.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
    , @Meena
  261. @Vidi

    The Great war was started with the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand on June 28, 1914 but was it the sole reason … obviously not!

    The underlying causes were bubbling under the surface for a very long time but the killing was the spark that started the conflagration to the regret of all involved, save perhaps the bankers.

    Similarly, China has managed to create a lot of enemies over the short term but also over the long span of its history, so firing shots on the top of the world isn’t exactly conducive to chinaman’s well-being. The next great war, perhaps the greatest of all wars, mayn’t come from this episode but it’s on it’s way. There is no avoiding it when all parties are armed (nuclear too) to the teeth with long standing grievances to boot…

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @denk
  262. @Really No Shit

    But you replied anyways! LOL

    Dont you remember the campaign? India superpower 2000!? Now, how did that one work out for you?

    India will never become a superpower
    https://theconversation.com/india-will-never-become-a-superpower-17868

    You need to overcome your massive inferiority complex.

    You know what they say – once a sepoy always a sepoy!

    Have a nice life!

    • Agree: denk
    • Replies: @Malla
  263. Malla says:
    @techvet

    Are you an Indian btw

    He is either an Indian or a pro-India agent pushing war with China (by both West and India) as well Muslim genocide at the hands of Hindus.
    That is actually the Zio plan. Use Muslims as weapons against Europa (so that the children of Emperor Titus who destroyed their Temple before and may do it again are too busy in a Native European – Muslim foreign immigrant civil war in Europe or Euros mix breed out of existence when Israel goes for Greater Israel expansion across the Middle East) and then create the Hindus (1 billion of us danced to a war pitch) as weapons (in alliance with Israel) against the Muslims of South Asia and eventually to destroy the entire Islamic World in the Middle East, a pincer move against the Islamic World- Zionists from the West, we Hindus from the East.
    Ironically such an alliance in between Jews and idol worshipers existed during the time of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Here the idol worshipers are the Arab pagans of Mecca (Hubbal and other gods). The idol worshipers at least fought upfront but the Jews of Medina slimeballed behind the scenes. Looks like such a new alliance is coming up against Muslims again. History repeats again.
    And also remember how the Sephardic Spanish Jews opened the gates of Visigothic Iberia for the Arabs across the straits of Gibralter to conquer. The Jewish advisers made the Visigothic Iberian King Wichita into a peace luvin hippy while at the same time prepared the Muslims in North Africa for invasion. Well history repeats again here too.

  264. Malla says:
    @Really No Shit

    so firing shots on the top of the world

    In other words the Western banker Zio elite scumbags will create a False Flag event / propaganda against China (or Russia) to start WW3.
    Just like Lusitania sinking (victim – Kaiser Germany in return for Palestine given to the Zionists/Rothschilds so victim no.2 – Palestinians), Havana Bay USS Maine incident (victim-Spanish Empire), Bay of Tonkin (victim -North Vietnam/ Vietnamese people as a whole), Pearl Harbour (victim – Japanese Empire and Axis), 9/11 (victim – Islamic world), Milosevic’s starving Camps (victim – Yugoslavia/Serbia), Kuwaiti Ambassador girl bullshitting about Saddam’s troops and baby incubators (victim-Iraq), “Huns” bayoneting Belgian babies (victim-Kaiser Germany).

    Oy, Vey, you guys are experts. Ya?

    • Replies: @anon
  265. Malla says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    That may not be India 2030, but that may very likely be USA 2050.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  266. Malla says:
    @Patagonia Man

    India will never become a superpower

    India may never be a superpower. (Who wants to be a superpower, look at the USA stuck in endlaess conflicts)
    But India will surely become (and is already is up to some extent) a regional power by weight of our huge population, quite large economy and reasonable military, industrial and scientific abilities. We can just sleep-waltz to regional power status.
    Yeah, but will India be ever be a first world country with the quality of life and per capita standard of living that you have in countries like Japan, Norway etc… today? Nah. Very very unlikely. Will not get even close.

    • Agree: Patagonia Man
  267. anon[154] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    The New Arab Staff & Agencies
    Christian Pakistani man sentenced to death over ‘blasphemous’ texts”

    Until Pakistan clears itself of these ignorant hateful rascals by openly reprimanding them ( like public flogging of the judges lawyers and the ulemas supporting this piece of legislation ) and jailing them , it remains vulnerable to all kinds of social strifes political paralysis and and large-scale violence fulled by internal and external forces .

    • Replies: @Malla
  268. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    Full of shit

    Similarly, China has managed to create a lot of enemies

    iDIOT,

    China had fourteen neighbors, settled its border demarcations with all of them…
    except India., BHutan.
    The only reason Bhutan hasnt done so iS bcos INdia forbade it to have normal relation with China.

    Sounds familiar ?
    NOw you know why they call India South Asia’s USA ?

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  269. haha says:
    @Malla

    Now aren’t you getting very tiresome? You try to inject Hindu-this and Hindu-that into every topic under discussion. If you are so keen on India and its great politics, why the hell don’t you focus your energies on your fellow Hindu Indians? Try selling the idea of modern toilets and public sanitation to the Hindus ruling India and try teaching poor Hindus some birth control.

  270. @haha

    Now aren’t you getting very tiresome? You try to inject Hindu-this and Hindu-that into every topic under discussion. If you are so keen on India and its great politics, why the hell don’t you focus your energies on your fellow Hindu Indians? Try selling the idea of modern toilets and public sanitation to the Hindus ruling India and try teaching poor Hindus some birth control.

    To be fair, this article is about India, one would expect the topic of Hinduism to rear it’s head, rather than being artificially injected into the debate as you claim is being done by Malla.

    • Thanks: Malla
  271. @techvet

    Mayflower stock … any other questions?

    P. S. I don’t defend India (read all relevant posts to discern my motives) but I for one do NOT believe picking fight with a country, which was allied in the two great wars now that they are piss poor and it serves a purpose in pinpointing to the true enemy: CHINA!

    • Replies: @techvet
  272. @denk

    A blind dirty yellow rat… every last one of your 18 neighbors has an intense dislike of China and just because it’s not constantly announced over the PA system does not mean it is not there… only a fool like you would think that you live in Mister Rogers neighborhood … given the opportunity all of them would attack you, starting with Tibet and ending with your “bosom buddy” North Korea… look in the mirror, do you see a monster in the shape of a big bad filthy panda, now do you?

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @john weber
    , @denk
  273. @Really No Shit

    Geez, talk about stupid. And how would your retarded ass extract vengeance from a nuclear power? Nationalizing tiktok? Lol.

    What part of being immune to future harvest attempts do you not understand?

    Or better yet, are you a suicidal retard that thinks USA can win a nuclear war?

  274. @Thulean Friend

    Tanquam ex ungue leonem Principia.

  275. Of course I do! Would we pay a dear, dear price? For sure! But NOT to finish the inscrutable Chinese would mean our own demise … it’s a zero sum game and the window of opportunity is closing perilously fast. Carpe diem!

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  276. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    India will never develop until the country has one common language.

  277. @Really No Shit

    Yea I am 100% sure you are NOT an American now. No American would want a Nuclear exchange.

    Are you Indian? You being Indian would make perfect sense. Especially your exchanges with techvet.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  278. @Malla

    1) Muhammad’s idea of Holy war was to convert the tribes of Arabia to Islam by force, and this Muhammad accomplished. It was never about spreading Islam to non-arabs as classical Islam was basically just judaism for arabs. Infact, the Ummayads actively discouraged conversions to Islam (partly due to economic reasons) because they understood this. It took centuries for Islam to spread in lands that the arabs conqured. Conversions to Islam were usually a slow trickle. The Quran doesn’t really talk about non arabs that much. Ibn Khaldun was not and is not considered a reliable source for fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence).

    2) The central Asians massacred plenty of Indian Muslims as well. The term ‘Hindu’ was a Persian word that refereed to all Indians, including Indian Muslims who also perished. You can bet that Timur leng massacred Indian muslims when he sacked Delhi. If you doubt that he had qualms about killing his fellow muslims, then look up the sacking of Damascus and Baghdad. Muslim conquerors were equal opportunity killers.

    3) All I’m saying is that while the central asians were barbarians, hindus didn’t fare any worse than other people. Compared to what the Romans did to the Jews, or what the mongols did to the Persians, or what the Aztecs did to their neighbors (orgies of human sacrifice) the Hindus weren’t particularly worse off.

    Everything you’ve said about Hindutva is true and I don’t disagree with any of it.

    • Replies: @Malla
  279. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vidi

    I think it’s pretty clear that American society, and the U.S. economy, are in a downward spiral.

    The problems are utterly fundamental and systemic.

    Race relations are in the absolute gutter, education is a shit-show (unless you are in the tiny fraction of the well-off), investment into basic infrastructure that makes for a modern country has been lacking for decades, the culture emphasizes reward without sacrifice, and the incomes of Americans are permanently stagnant, if not declining.

    We have reached a situation where it no longer matters what actions are taken. They can pump another 30 Trillion of worthless paper (aka “dollars”) into the economy (doubling current debt), they can prop up the banks and the stock market, they can pretend the economy is doing great for a little while longer – none of it will save the system for more than a few more years.

    Regardless of the election results, these next 5-8 years will be terrible. And after that, things will get truly horrific. These times we’re living through now? THESE are the good old days.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  280. @Astute Observer II

    Astute Observer II,

    It is really creepy that you called me Mr. Iravani! WTF?! You obviously enjoy being creepy! Find it hard to believe that you are oblivious to the fact that in America, the vast majority of people named Andrea are female, in fact, I have never met an American named Andrea that is a male. Considering that I am reading the Unz review, the liklihood of me living in Italy is rather small, this really does not appeal to the typical Italian reader.

    Ms. Andrea Iravani

  281. @Anonymous

    Earn as much money as possible. Diversified your holdings, by that I mean internationally. Prepare for the worst.

    That is all you can do.

  282. @Astuteobservor II

    I am a Tibetan living right inside the Forbidden Palace … waiting for the Dalai Lama to ride in with the American forces!

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  283. @Really No Shit

    When will you self immolate? So I can get a camera ready.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  284. @Astuteobservor II

    Whenever you are ready, Fu Manchu, I mean # 1 son …

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  285. @Really No Shit

    Lol. When you are ready to die gloriously for your imperial dreams, let me know. I will cheer you on.

    🤣

  286. Mefobills says:
    @antibeast

    I would still force paper money. Even if it is inconvenient. EMP or some event there has to be soft fail. Also paper allows an outlet for fringe elements to operate without scrutiny. The human animal will revolt if you lock the cage too tight.

  287. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Yeah you are probably right… Apart from egotism – those who want to sell India arms encourage such

  288. @trickster

    Ahhhhh – so it doesn’t matter who invents something – it’s all about how it is put to use..?? So be sure to tell Trump that and the idiot Republicans who just claim China steals IP.

    But you are indeed an arrogant one.. That is why Korea and Vietnam didn’t work out too well… Along with some others since.

    As to the Boxer Rebellion… Where I grew up – the one who was willing to fight with his hands was more brave than the one who used the gun.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @trickster
  289. @Really No Shit

    China shares a land border with 14 countries and resolved border issues with everyone of them, except Bhutan and Indian. The only reason which Bhutan wasn’t able to complete negotiations with China was the interference from India, while India borders with 6 countries by land and it has border issues with all of them.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  290. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    hey mofo

    How did China creates an enemy outta India , when its India which..

    invaded China in 1962

    sponsored Tibetan insurrection

    joins anti Chinese QUAD alliance ?

    Tip of an iceberg, Im just listing the biggies,.
    ————

    PS
    The only reason Im still engaging this pos is bcos it represents 7 outta 10 murikkans, yet the mofo says its those ‘Chinese loving joos‘ who make him into a raving Chinese hating mad dog.

    Its the people, stupid.
    https://thehill.com/policy/international/china/493924-two-in-three-americans-now-hold-negative-view-of-china-poll

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  291. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    As to the Boxer Rebellion… Where I grew up – the one who was willing to fight with his hands was more brave than the one who used the gun.

    Nothing wrong with hand-to-hand combat which is the basic skill required of warriors trained in martial arts including the US Marine Corps, as shown in the following video:

    The Boxer Rebellion was a populist revolt against Westerners in China which failed militarily but succeeded politically in inspiring the 1911 Xinhai Revolution ten years later against the discredited Qing Emperor. Heroic acts such as the Boxer Rebellion fail initially but ultimately succeed in instigating much larger and more potent movements such as the Tongmenghui which was founded by Sun Yat Sen in 1905. The Tongmenghui then spearheaded the nationalist revolution against the Qing Dynasty leading to the founding of the Republic of China in 1912.

    Same thing happened with the Long March after the Chinese Red Army retreated from the military defeats inflicted by the KMT Nationalist Army and ended up in Yan’an where Mao created his Maoist doctrine of People’s War. The lessons learned in Yan’an later became known as Maoism which succeeded not only in defeating the KMT in China but also helped the Vietnamese defeat the US military in the Vietnam War.

  292. @Anonymous, @showmethereal, @anon

    I stand by my original statement.

  293. ivan says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Kashmir became part of India due in large part to the friendship between Jawarhalal Nehru and Sheikh Abdullah the head of the Kashmiris. It was a friendship going back to 1930.

    It is true that to an extent the Indians took the Kashmiris for granted, but you are letting off the Pakistanis too easily. When in the aftermath of the Russian intervention in Afghanistan, Zia-ul-Haq was flush with cash, the whole orientation of the Pak military-mullah ruling class turned to creating trouble in Kashmir. This was around the same time as the Khalistan movement in Indian Punjab, similarly sponsored by the Paks to break up India, which ended up costing Mrs Gandhi her life.

    Now India of the 80s was on the long road to the majoritarianism under the Hindus that we have today with the ruling BJP, and every step of that way was aided by Pakistan who now claim to be fighting for the Kashmiris and Indian Muslims. Add to that sanguinary massacres of Hindus such as that of the Pandits in the 90s, and you have the very scenario that the then ruling Congress was trying to prevent, viz, the targeting of all Muslims in India as a disloyal element in the body politics of India.

    Incidentally the tribe of the Pandits is Jawarhalal Nehru’s own, the founding Prime Minister of India. In all the rest of India Muslims are a minority in every state. The question would naturally arise as to why when the Muslims are in a majority as in Kashmir, they are free to go their own way, while when they are in a minority elsewhere in India, they seek to live under the secular Constitution?

  294. @john weber

    Did you forget Manchuria, Mongolia (Inner), Tibet and Turkmenistan (East) from the yellow math? I suggest you go back to the abacus school …

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  295. @denk

    Tibet, like your other oppressed neighbors, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria and East Turkmenistan is a noble country run roughshod over by the dirty yellow rats of China and it’s the duty of the U.S. as the sole superpower to free them from oppression by Hanistan…

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @denk
  296. @Really No Shit

    Below is my reply to some Nipponese poster years ago. Inside […] were Nipponese words. What follow are mine:
    .
    { Subject: Tibet is part of China
    .
    Posted By: Genghis – Unregistered User
    .

    [MORE]
    Posted At: (6/23/01 8:04:52 pm)
    .
    Reply
    .
    [I think you meant that Tibet wasn’t part of Ming (the last Han Chinese dynasty if you disregard the current Communist regime). Qing was a (Foreign) Manchu dynasty. I’m not sure why after 1911 the Han Chinese could legitimately claim the entire Manchuria, Turkestan, Tibet, and Mongolia too. (I would recommend Jonathan Spence’s book “Modern China” as a reference.)]
    .
    If the Manchus could claim Han China in the past- and it did- then Han China can claim Manchuria by the “Principle of Reciprocity”. This also applies to other minority regions of China. They have in the past invaded/conquered Han China. They now get what they truly deserve- being parts of China so that they can own China without having to invade it. I think, some people to the east also invaded and did horrendous damage to China not many decades ago. Hmmm…
    .
    On the other hand, there has been NO occasion where the TRUE Americans (the so called “Indians”) had invaded Europe. So, there is absolutely NO justification or legitimacy for the Europeans (the whites) to make a claim on America. The product of such an illegitimate claim, the US, is therefore an occupation. The notion that the US is a sovereign nation is pure “bullshit”!
    .
    Similar argument applies to the Japanese. These Japanese are “occupationists” originally from the Asian mainland and they therefore do not deserve the land of Japan. They don’t deserve mainland Asia either because they had since gone back and committed uncountable atrocities. No one there would want them. Thinking about it, they only deserve the nuke. This must be something the Japanese themselves agree- for they have a undying fondness for the people who had nuked them.
    .
    [In any case, the Han Chinese only deserve China proper. But the PRC claims that its a “mutli-ethnic/multi-cultural” state, though 90 some % of the PRC population is Han Chinese. Everyday, minorities in the PRC are being “integrated” or assimilated culturally, economically, and politically. The PRC makes it its business to migrate mass numbers of Han Chinese into Tibet, Turkestan, and other areas where minorities/barbarians live. I guess one could say this the current form of the so-called “sinicization.” The Chinese always have been cultural imperialists ever since history has been recorded.]
    .
    The Chinese, Han or other minorities, deserve all China for reasons mentioned above. You are only proving that the whites do NOT deserve America by this argument and the Japanese do not deserve Japan.
    .
    As for integration and assimilation, that is the beauty of the Chinese civilization. By making the minorities accept their own new found Chinese identity, they will become integral and equal parts of us. It is happening right before your eyes- as you have said above. This is not something that the Japanese or Europeans can achieve. Their societies will forever be ridden with racial animosities, which, in China, will only manifest as transitional phenomena.
    .
    [Japan is also on the bully list of the PRC. From trade to security to domestic issues like education and commemorating those who died for the country, Japan gets bullied by the PRC. The Chinese don’t realize that by doing so, gradually they are alientating the Japanese people and this could enhance historical pro-Taiwanese sentiments.]
    .
    This is typical bully double-talk and troubled-think, something the whites are extremely good at. It is for this reasons that I call the Japanese “honorary whites” (search for “Honourary whites” I posted on this board some 3 years ago). China “bully” the Japanese? Of course, the Japanese were also being bullied when they massacred, raped, killed, starved and cause the death of more then 30 million Chinese!!! What China is doing is that of an aggrieved state, and it is exactly what Korea is doing also. So, have you Japanese been “bullied” by the Koreans” in the past couple of centuries as well? With mentality like this, no wonder that you guys deserved to be nuked by your mentors. That seems to be the only way to win your respect!
    .
    [Although it’s understandable that the Chinese are defensive about protecting themselves from foreigner intervention for historical reasons (ever since the Opium war in the 1840s to Japanese invasion in the 1930s), clearly they’ve been overdoing it. In eyes of neighbors, PRC behaviors could be perceived to be revisionist, if not, imperialistic. ]
    .
    China is NOT over-doing it. The Japanese have NEVER been occupied by China, yet they still choose to feel being threatened and bullied by the Chinese!!! So, why shouldn’t China be seriously concerned about its security when, as you yourself have confirmed, foreign invasion and occupations (including by the Japanese) are still so fresh?
    .
    [But don’t jump to conclusions yet. We still don’t know which way China is going at this moment. There are a considerable number of Chinese intellectuals who strongly believe in a more liberal and democratic China. We have to be careful not to alienate them. For some reason, the liberal ones (like the Tiananment protestors) support Tibetan occupation and oppose Taiwanese independence. But they do believe in a liberal, democratic, and free-marketist China. ]
    .
    Correct! China is liberalising day by day and growing stronger week by week. When the day comes, the Japanese will feel the full wrath of these “Chinese intellectuals and liberal” who will no longer held back by the “commies” as they are today. I hope that day will come earlier rather than later.
    .
    [Taiwan is a democratic capitalist country worthy of our respect and recognition. Taiwan Independence Wansui!
    Some day…just some day…]
    .
    Hahaha…. This is so funny. Any self-hater in Taiwan worthy of your “respect” will NOT celebrate “independence” by yelling “Wansui”, which is Pinyin Chinese in case you don’t know, but “Bansai”, which is badly imitated Chinese as you already know.}
    .
    Devil’s
    .

  297. @Really No Shit

    China ought to ‘smile’ at the beleaguered Sikhs if it wants to immediately nullify India’s subversive pre-Olympiad activity Delhi is currently pushing, in cahoots with the Dalai Lama, to demonize China
    .
    Washington D.C. Thursday April 03, 2008: In a press release issued today, the Director of the Washington-based Khalistan Affairs Center, Dr. Amarjit Singh, quoted from his weekly column dated April 2, 2008, (carried by numerous Punjabi newspapers catering to the Sikh diaspora in North America and Europe) which has urged China to immediately ‘smile’ at the Sikh movement for an independent buffer state of Khalistan and also support the aspirations of Christian Nagas for an independent buffer state of Nagalim. ( To read the weekly Khalistan Calling column dated April 2, 2008 please click at the following link:- > /home/khalistancalling/2008/april02.aspx <)
    .

    [MORE]

    Such a wise and practical step, at this point in time, by China, Dr. Amarjit Singh believes, is in China's interest. He claims it will immediately take the wind out of India’s current anti-China subversive activity in which the Dalai Lama and his cohorts have been mustered world wide by Indian Intelligence Agencies. This covert campaign, some Indian ‘hawks’ hope, will in the short term demonize China, and embarrass it in advance of the XXIX Olympiad, scheduled to be held in Beijing from August 8 to 24, 2008. In the long term they hope India will be able to milch concessions from China on the border dispute by playing this Tibet card at this point in time. Some hope!
    .
    India’s neighbors perhaps do not realize that the world’s 26 Million muscular Sikhs (3 million free and prosperous in the diaspora and 23 million captive in Indian occupied Punjab) all of whom recite a daily prayer for the return of Sikh rule (‘Raj Karayga Khalsa’) are India’s ‘Achilles heal’. The Indian rulers, an evil nexus of the minority Brahmin and Bania castes (who are no more than 4 % of India’s population) know the muscular Sikhs and are therefore, terrified of the day when a neighbor of India (like China) decides to ‘smile’ at the Sikhs by noticing their aspiration for a buffer state of Khalistan. An economically viable, water and food rich, buffer Sikh state East of the Pakistan border (and West of the Chinese border) a la the brave Nagas who are also fighting for an independent oil-rich buffer state of Nagalim, West of Myanmar, East of Bangladesh and South of the Chinese border. There is no doubt that a friendly Chinese interest in acquiring more information about the proposed buffer state of Khalistan would electrify the Sikhs and terrify the Indian rulers into putting a quick end to not only Dalai Lama's provocative theatrics but also put a stop to Indian covert activity in Tibet and Dharamsala pronto, long before the start of the Games of the XXIX Olympiad being held in Beijing from 8 to 24 August, 2008.
    .
    Press Release – April 3, 2008
    .
    http://www.khalistan-affairs.org/home/pressreleaseApril3,2008.aspx
    .
    .
    And the world should not forget the Seven Sisters, the Naxalites, Kashmir, etc too!!!

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
    , @Smith
  298. @Deep Thought

    Break up China and India into several states … the problem solved!

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @denk
  299. @Really No Shit

    The real problems are Amelika and Jappon. Abolish them!!!
    .
    Believe me, both will be done one day. Amelika will be abolished by the expansion of the non-white population– especially the Hispanics, and Jappon by it former victims in East Asia.
    .

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  300. @Deep Thought

    What a dreadful thought to think that the land of the rising Sun would be overrun by the dirty yellow rats of Hanistan … where is Yojimbo just when he is most needed to tackle the harlot meloveyoulongtime?

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @denk
  301. trickster says:
    @showmethereal

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh….I am right and you are wrong. Unless an invention or a product can be put to use it is of NO USE ! Need another example ? Oil existed for millions of years in the Middle East. In Libya for example it used to seep up into the water wells. However until it could be used (in say the combustion engine) it was without value. If a profitable use had not been invented the Sauds would still be living in tents and riding camels.

    If you need to send a message to Trump you can do so yourself !

    Korea and Vietnam are irrelevant to this discussion but since you bring it up I suggest you go live there and see how much you love it. In any case we smashed the Viets and they are likely to be traumatized for years to come. Further, many thousands live in the US and if you wish to be further informed just fly to Vietnam and ask anyone if they would move here or prefer to continue living there. You can publish your earth shattering results on UNZ. NK is a communist gulag and shit hole and you would be surprised at how many S/ Koreans live here, are anxious to live here and if they live there are anxious for the white man to protect them from their own.

    We enjoy the lifestyle we have because we take what we need from others. That unfortunately is the way the world works. If the day ever comes when we are without, the US population wont give a shit that someone else somewhere else in the world is without. A man who is cold, hungry and without the necessities of life does not give a hoot about the needs of another human being somewhere else in the world.

    As to where I grew up we fight to WIN and if that means using a weapon of any sort then that is what it has to be. YOU can fight with your bare hands to show you are brave because you are an idiot.

    I have been in combat and know what I am talking about. It has fuck all to do with bravery and everything to do with survival! You are just a confused individual living in a bubble ! WAKE UP LITTLE BOY !!

  302. Meena says:
    @Malla

    Brutish found and freed 27,000 slaves in the Ahom state that was East of the combined state known as Bengal ( incorporating Orissa Bihar and part of Assam ) out of a population of 35,0000.

    The slaves were transgenerational and horizontal meaning the free spouse would join as slave if married to a slave and offsprings would serve as slave.

    About the atrocities , many current authors speculate the real possibilities of polemics distorting the truths . The authors of the Sultan and Mughal period used to embellish and portray the conquest and the killings in most lurid form to emphasize the power and strength of the conquerors . It was line with earlier gory and stirred depictions of similar conquests by the local Indian kings and warlords .

    • Replies: @Malla
  303. trickster says:
    @haha

    I agree with you. If there is an article about scarves Malla will give you a 4000 word treatise on the origin of turbans in the Punjab and the use of scarves by Hindoo rickshaw operators to wipe the sweat off their greasy faces. Dont ask her the time…you are liable to get a history of the clock and time telling techniques of Cromagnon Man.

    I think she is an old bag widow with nothing to do all day but write long and boring replies on UNZ. Look at the length of some of her responses…..and the number.

    She never loses an opportunity to tout Hindoo this and Hindu that. As you say she should be touting modern plumbing in India instead of the one outdoor latrine used by 100 people. India was always a shit hole, is and always will be. They are a race of classic ironies and paradoxes. They have a nuclear arsenal but the majority bathe in the shit polluted Ganges, take a dump in the City drainage gutters and piss against lampposts. They groan about racism in the US but have a caste system in India.

    And all that after thousands of years of civilization ! You got to give your head a shake !

    • Troll: Malla
    • Replies: @Malla
  304. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    tIBET

    Exactly as expected, mofo is shifting goal post again.

    IOW,
    You agree India has been the aggressor,

    neighbors

    idiot,
    Tibet, xinjiang, Mongolia are provinces.

    OTOH,
    Syria, Iraq, Afghan etc are sovereign countries and they want you to…..
    FUCK OFF.

    R2p ?

    Tibet proper etc are doing just fine, thank you very much.
    Try India’s Tibet, where people are Crushed by the tyranny of RSFPA, the world’s most draconian ‘anti insurgency law’, aka
    license to kill [and rape]

    The ‘Indian’ NE, where people are one rung below the Dalits, only their land and their women are coveted’
    ‘Manipur ? Who ? What ? Where ?’ I can already hear people ask. Not surprising at all for those are questions that many Indian citizens themselves would be hard put to answer. Unlike Kashmir or the fate of the ‘untouchable’ Dalits- whose causes have made it to global platforms in recent years- the dirty little secrets of the Indian State’s predations in its north-eastern provinces are unknown to even rest of India.

    Not that rest of ‘Aryan’ India really cares. To them, the populations of the Indian northeast, of largely Tibeto-Burman ethnic origins, are an ‘invisible’ lot- whose territory and resources ‘belong’ to India but whose people don’t. Probably a rung below the ‘visible’ Dalits who ‘belong’ to India but possess no territory.’
    https://www.countercurrents.org/hr-sagar240804.htm

    come to think of it,
    when are you gonna r2p Diego Garcia ?
    Havent you heard, bunch of pirates have been squatting on the island after cleansing out the inhabitants ?

    World’s only super power to the rescue

    The world’s no 1 rogue state as R2p
    judge, prosecutor and executioner. ??

    Is it normal practice in [[[six liars]]] land [five liars + India] to have criminals running court ?

    Hmm, Trump, MOdi comes to mind,
    hhehhe

    How did it work out when the ‘world cop’ carried out R2p[lunder] ops in Iraq, YUgo, LIbya, Syria ?

    Mad Albright

    To remove Saddam,
    500000 children lives are worth it.

  305. @Really No Shit

    The Holy Force of Reciprocity will abolish Japponstan, Amelikastan and Hindianland. You can never escape the Force of Justice.

    • Replies: @Malla
  306. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    What a dreadful thought to think that the land of the rising Sun would be overrun by the dirty yellow rats of Hanistan

    ‘World cop’ eh ?

    BUnch of savages have been terrorising the JPs for seventy years.
    Where the fuck have you been, are you in cahoot with the mofo ?

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/335027

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  307. Malla says:
    @Meena

    The authors of the Sultan and Mughal period used to embellish and portray the conquest and the killings in most lurid form to emphasize the power and strength of the conquerors .

    Whatever it is, no Hindu would want to live under Islamic rule again. That I can tell you. There is a massive fear of Muslims among most Hindus. It is something deep, primordial, in the soul.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  308. techvet says:
    @Really No Shit

    you’d care to remember that the founding fathers were staunchly non interventionists. The cabal that rules the beltway has nothing to do with them. Having a strong defense while avoiding entanglements abroad is what the FF wanted. What we have now is the exact opposite. We are being inundated by ethnic narcissists from everywhere, our southern border is in shambles while we shed blood for those who otherwise hate us.

    America’s true enemy is within the gates. Its the DC cabal. If not for them we’d care nothing for China or India. And we wouldn’t be having so many of them here either.

    You are either being naive or pushing a false narrative. China is an enemy of imperial DC who doesn’t represent americana in any way or form

  309. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @trickster

    We enjoy the lifestyle we have because we take what we need from others. That unfortunately is the way the world works

    There ya go! Yeah, keep saying that.

    LIVE BY NUKES, DIE BY NUKES. Better get on with it, though. Window’s closing rapidly, could even be closed already, IMHO.

    It’s ain’t as much fun when the rabbit has a (the) gun. (To slightly modify the expression).

  310. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Alright, I get that, Hindus hate Muslims.

    But what’s the Hindu beef with the Chinese? They seem to love picking fights with them.

    Consider:

    The Chinese took Indian prisoners. If it were a Chinese incursion, how likely is it that they would take Indian prisoners on the Indian side of the border, and march them back into China? Not likely at all.

    That alone kinda indicates to me it was the Indian Army that was in China, not the other way around. Hey, you can give each other the middle finger all you want, but crossing borders is a big no-no. That’s like throwing the first punch during a stare-down. You are the automatic aggressor, case closed.

    Why does India do it?

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  311. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    Hindianland.

    Predictions for India and the World

    Astrologist PVR Narasimha Rao who claims to have a very good track record of predictions believes, it is China based on negative karmic balance will break apart into many parts and the USA will become a second rate power. Claims Capitalism has gone out of control and will not sustain and the World will become more Dharmic.

    He has a bachelors degree from IIT, Madras and a masters degree from Rice University, Houston and lives in greater Boston where he works as a firmware manager at a top semiconductor firm. He received “Sanskrita Bhasha Kovida” and “Sanskrita Bhasha Visharada” diplomas at an age of 11 and combines his Sanskrit knowledge with scientific temper to conduct fresh research into the teachings of rishis.

  312. @Astuteobservor II

    No, he’s more of a dedicated troll. He’s trying to find the most infuriating positions so to better bait.

  313. @denk

    Posted by Genghis ?/small> , Jan 07,2000,09:39 Archive
    07/01/2000

    Thank you very much, Mr Jap-san. What you have said below proves beyond all doubt that you are indeed an honorary white. You talk like them, you think like them and you even love “peace” and “democracy” like them.

    As a native of Japan, which had cause unbearable sufferings in all East Asia, and in China in particular, not that long ago you still don’t know why China needs powerful armed forces? Even today, Japan has a navy several times more powerful than that of China’s and they still choose to feel threatened by China, instead of the opposite. This is very typical “white-talk”, Mr Jap-san.

    There was a time in the eighties when Japan appeared to go out of its way to right the wrongs it had done (as well as the wrongs other people had done) and I was prepared to forget what they had done in China. Then come the nineties and the Japanese began to love peace and democracy the way the whites do. I have now learnt to detest them just as I had learnt to detest the whites (especially the Anglo-American kind).

    One example that summarizes the Japanese honorary-white attitude was when North Korea tried to launch an experimental satellite, and the Jap-sans cried wolf. Yet, the Japs had already launched their own rockets and missiles and they already have the most powerful solid-fuelled rocket in the world. I don’t want to speculate what they will do when they put into practice their already well-known ability to manufacture nuclear weapons. The Korean’s (North and South) desire to possess missiles and nuclear weapons is understandable. What can they use to defend themselves otherwise if the Imperial Army of Japan come to demand half-a-million “comfort women” from them again?

    If you still don’t understand, Mr Jap-san, I can tell you why you are afraid of the Chinese and other Asians but feel so comfortable with you white “friendship”. It is because the US arbitrarily interned the Japanese on the other side of the Pond during the war and you people could do NOTHING about it. It is because they nuked you into submission even though you people did not make “comfort women” out of their women-folks.

    THE ASIANS HAVE BEEN TOO FORGIVING WHEN IT COMES TO THE JAPS. That is why they receive contempt in return. How many Holocaust denial sites can you find on the web? That is because the Russians raped (literally) those Nazis until they came to their senses.

    Mr Jap-san, all the other Asians are waiting for you to spread your “common interest” the way you did 60 years ago and then we can get the chance of bring you people to your senses the Russian way.

    Genghis

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @Malla
    , @denk
  314. @JohnPlywood

    You really are delusional… Pretty scary. India is hot under the collar because their undisciplined soldiers crept across the line and got beaten up and with no means of retreat froze to death and or drowned. China is calm because they didn’t lose.

  315. @Deep Thought

    The above was my reply to some Japponese poster on the Warships1 forum

  316. Smith says:
    @Deep Thought

    Oh dear, this speaks volume of chink inferiority complex.

    Sins of the fathers and all that. I knew they feel humiliated by being bested by smaller countries and still want the imperialist “Asia = China” dream.

    If the beauty of China civilization is to import massive amount of Han and outbreed/brainwash the native habitants, what makes them better than the “whites”? In fact, what makes it beautiful at all? Such an orcist way of thinking.

    The jap you were speaking sound to like a cuck for wanting democracy tho.

    Speaking of war crimes, daily reminder that the japs invaded Korea 2 times.

    The chinks on the other hand, regularly invaded and has indeed vassalized Korea:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sino-Korean_relations

    And the recent Korean war, where they negotiate with the US to keep Korea divided.

    Boy that cries wolf indeed.

    Ho Chi Minh was right in keeping chink troops outside of North Vietnam. If he allowed them in, no wonder they would start speaking as if they had personally fought against the americans and won the battles and “deserved” Vietnam.

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  317. antibeast says:
    @trickster

    We enjoy the lifestyle we have because we take what we need from others. That unfortunately is the way the world works. If the day ever comes when we are without, the US population won’t give a shit that someone else somewhere else in the world is without. A man who is cold, hungry and without the necessities of life does not give a hoot about the needs of another human being somewhere else in the world.

    You seem to think that the US GDP per capita of $60K belongs to US citizens. I have bad news for you stupid gringos : the US GDP belongs to the Capitalist owners of the US Federal Reserve System, a privately-owed Central Bank masquerading as a publicly-run government agency. So it should be GDP per capitalist not per capita, get it?

    So what do US citizens really own in the USA? Nothing! Not a thing except the public debts of the US government which your children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren would have to pay back as debt slaves. And there is nothing you can do about it because the Capitalist owners of the US Federal Reserve System also own and control Wall Street, Silicon Valley and Hollywood as well as US politics, US media, US education, US Deep State, etc.

    You better hope and pray for a White knight to save your White azzes from “your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore” because the Capitalist owners of the USA now want to replace you White sheeple with Black and Brown monkeys from the Turd World. Enjoy your credit card lifestyle while it lasts because it ain’t goin’ to last forever. Intiendes, gringo?

  318. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    That may not be India 2030, but that may very likely be USA 2050.

    That’s already happening in Silicon Valley 2020:

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/09/09/h-1b-san-jose-tech-firm-discriminated-against-non-indians-favored-visa-holders-lawsuit-claims/

    Foreign-born Indians have become the new Brahmins of Silicon Valley, displacing native-born Whites who are being treated as the new Dalits of the USA.

    • Agree: techvet
  319. @Smith

    Like most whites, you have this incurable “Thief calling thief” complex. It has been the whites who had land-grabbed entire continents and “outbreed/brainwash the native habitants”. They then develop this “inferiority complex” when they failed to beat a backward peasant army in Korea. The inferiority went even deeper when they were beaten by a small peasant country called Vietnam, which relied on China to keep the Amelikans invading its Northern half:
    .
    Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge
    by Bob Seals
    .
    ‘“Thus the highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy plans;” according to the learned military theorist Sun-Tzu in the Art of War. [69] In respects this is exactly what the North Vietnamese, and Chinese did in both Vietnam Wars: they successfully attacked the Western powers war plans. The considerable support for the DRV by the PRC, to include a promise to intervene with massive numbers of troops in the event of an invasion of North Vietnam, effectively eliminated this course of action, and perhaps others, as potential war winning options for the West. Thus, with the support of China, on a strategic level of war the DRV was able to remain upon the offensive throughout the war, maintaining the initiative and finally achieving victory as Saigon fell in April of 1975.’
    .
    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx
    .
    Therefore, it was CHINA that did not allow the Amelikans into North Vietnam. If you read history properly, you should know that there were, perhaps, hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in North Vietnam manning anti-aircraft missile system, doing logistic and supply works. Chinese at home had to go hungry in order to give huge amount of food Vietnam– So that young Vietnamese men did NOT have to doing all the above but to go fighting the Amelikan invaders in the South.
    .
    Like most Vietnamese, Uncle Ho was just another ungrateful little animal who thought China owed all those to him.
    .
    Korea and China had invaded EACH OTHER ever since they had a common border. On the other hand, white Europe NEVER had a common border with North America, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc. But the whites conducted NAKED invasions against them and then proceeded to commit the unforgivable crimes of “outbreeding/brainwashing the native habitants”. Read your OWN history properly.
    .
    Many of your so-called Chinese invasions of Korea were done by Non-Han tribes, which were then NOT yet Chinese (e.g. Liao, Jin, Mongol). They were invaders against Han China too (until they repaid their debt and were absorbed by China!!! Read the article you yourself linked to.
    .
    Chinese troops left Korea after the end of the war there. But Amelikans still stay as occupiers!

  320. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    You Sir, are an idiot. Smith is Vietnamese and denk is Chinese.

  321. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    Whoever this Ghengis is, he is a brainwashed idiot.

  322. Smith says:
    @Deep Thought

    The boy is crying wolf again, let’s debunk it. And I’m not a whitey, I’m a Vietnamese.

    They then develop this “inferiority complex” when they failed to beat a backward peasant army in Korea.

    So why is there still a South Korea now? The North Korean also has greater military achievement than the chinks, considering they made it all the way to Busan. Meanwhile, chinkies fight only to preserve status quo, nothing more, that’s why they lost Seoul despite having beaten the americans.

    Therefore, it was CHINA that did not allow the Amelikans into North Vietnam

    Irrelevant, the chinks do this out of geopolitical interest, in order to counter the americans. They wish to maintain the status quo in order to divide Vietnam, as well as bleeding out America. Luckily, North Vietnam has enough initiative to liberate/unify South Vietnam and this is rewarded by the chink funding Pol Pot with the americans and performing its own invasion in 1979 to punish Vietnam.

    Like most Vietnamese, Uncle Ho was just another ungrateful little animal who thought China owed all those to him.

    Chink imperialism laid bare. Using similar logic, China itself owes its existence to America and the USSR, should China be divided between Russia and America?

    Many of your so-called Chinese invasions of Korea were done by Non-Han tribes, which were then NOT yet Chinese (e.g. Liao, Jin, Mongol). They were invaders against Han China too (until they repaid their debt and were absorbed by China!!! Read the article you yourself linked to.

    No, Liao is a chinese dynasty ruled by Khitan, Yuan is also a chinese dynasty ruled by mongols. You are also forgotteing the Han, Cao, Sui and Tang invasion of Korea. Are all these not chink too? The fact you chinks are ruled by foreigners doesn’t absolve you of your crimes. Else, the whites can also say they were blameless for their imperialism because the jews control them.

    And really, repaid their crimes by being “absorbed by China”? That’s indeed white logic, that’s indeed what they do in NZ, Australia and North America. You are proving chinks share their dream of domination, except they lack of the capacity. This is why they envy the whites and the japs.

    As said, chinks have two faces/two races:
    1. They act like niggers if they are talking to whites and japs, always muh war crimes, muh repairations.
    2. They act like whites if they are talking to anybody else, always muh superior civilization, muh barbarians.

    And this is why they are hated everywhere they go.

    You can try this shit with the dumbfuck whites, but not against me who knows chink history as well as Asian history.

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @denk
    , @antibeast
  323. Malla says:
    @trickster

    Oy vey, Am I dealin with a Third world Whitey. Don’t I feel like one of those “White man’s burden” Colonial Officers, who helps darkies by banning slavery, supporting the weak tribe against the strong tribe only to get hate in return, goddamn ungrateful darkies. Talk about the suffering of a”Brown man’s burden” from a YT with a third world soul. Oy Vey.

    nothing to do all day but write long and boring replies on UNZ. Look at the length of some of her responses…..and the number.

    Somebody Stop Me. And since you are being such a bitch, I think I will write more long and “boring” posts on Unz. Longer they shall be. As Nietzsche’s spirit would have told you “your harsh and idiotic words only inspires Malla to go on and better himself the length of his posts, to become the Superman of Long Posts, you helped Malla, and now the World will be a better place, Thanks”

    She never loses an opportunity to tout Hindoo this and Hindu that.

    LOL only about 10-20% of my posts on Hindu this Hindu that. I have more posts supporting National Socialism than anything Hindooism.

    As you say she should be touting modern plumbing in India instead of the one outdoor latrine used by 100 people.

    It is very difficult work. The mighty British Empire which conquered 25% of the World failed in this regard after trying so hard. How is it that I, a “lonely widow” can succeed?

    They have a nuclear arsenal but the majority bathe in the shit polluted Ganges, take a dump in the City drainage gutters and piss against lampposts.

    This is actually part of our military doctrine. If we get nuked in return of our launched nukes and our society crumbles, we will still survive. Toilets destroyed by nukes, no problem, I see dat radioactive field there. No problem.

    They are a race of classic ironies and paradoxes.

    And YT isn’t? Conquered most of the World, but now getting colonised without any shots being fired by third world hordes? YT armies makes enemies shiver in their boots, but gangs of non white terrorize YTs in their own cities and YT cannot do shit. YT armies invade Iraq but cannot protect their border in the South. Smelly Pakistani gangs in the UK use YT’s women as sperm dump, mighty YT cannot do shit, mighty British Army which fought the mighty Wehrmacht, in their bases, but YT cannot still do shit. YT Roman destroy Jewish Temple and march back to Rome in triumph and YT today economic slaves of Jews. Indeed YT fight Jew wars even against fellow YT. Indeed to please their Jew masters YT Americans and Brits, to s**ki s**ki their Jew Masters c**k, even firebombed Dresden killing hundreds of thousands of hapless innocent women and children and destroying a beautiful city. Jew Master Israel ruthlessly (and incompetently) attacks YT American USS Liberty, YT does nothing, not a peep, YT bows down and take it in the a** from Jew massa.

    This is way way more paradoxical and ironic than nukes and gutter shittin goin together if u asks me. Not even in the same league. Not even close LOL.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  324. @showmethereal

    Sure. You are right if you look at it on a short term basis. The Chinese play the long game. It will make sense, if you look at it from a long term perspective. Where is India today compared to China? Indians can milk what they want and control the narrative but ultimately it is heading for failure. Go travel to China and India and come back and re-argue this argument.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  325. @Smith

    A Viet??? You prove that my bluffing works and stupidly reveal your true ugly shit face. Read Bob’s conclusion again:
    .
    Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge
    by Bob Seals

    [MORE]

    .
    ‘“Thus the highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy plans;” according to the learned military theorist Sun-Tzu in the Art of War. [69] In respects this is exactly what the North Vietnamese, and Chinese did in both Vietnam Wars: they successfully attacked the Western powers war plans. The considerable support for the DRV by the PRC, to include a promise to intervene with massive numbers of troops in the event of an invasion of North Vietnam, effectively eliminated this course of action, and perhaps others, as potential war winning options for the West. Thus, with the support of China, on a strategic level of war the DRV was able to remain upon the offensive throughout the war, maintaining the initiative and finally achieving victory as Saigon fell in April of 1975.’
    .
    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx
    .
    “The third most powerful country in the world” wanted to swallow up Kampuchea after the Amelikans tucked-tail. With the help of China and the you-know-whom Amelikans, Pol Pot turned Kampuchea into Vietnam’s very OWN “Vietnam” and the latter had to tuck-tail too– just like the Amelikans who had B-52 them, MyLai them and Agent-oranged them. ;-D, ;-D, ;-D
    .
    If the Chinese really “acted like niggers if they are talking to whites and japs”, the Amelikans wouldn’t need to fear the Chinese wanting to DISPLACE them and the Japponese would not have to fear the Chinese wanting to take revenge on them. Towards their white masters, the Viets behave just like the Japs– they both have an undying love for the Amelikans who had agent-oranged or nuked them. When you talk about the “Chinese”, you are merely describing your very self in a mirror.
    .
    This Viet (Henry the Winn below) even believed that China needed China needed Pham Van Dong’s letter of acceptance in order to have its own “12-miles territorial waters:
    .
    {Devils Advocate_1in reply to Henry Winn
    [Henry Winnin reply to Devils Advocate_143 mins ago
    Vietnamese approach in the SCS is not opportunistic but, rather consistent with what holds the country together for over 4,000 years:
    .
    Today’s Vietnam is not the same Vietnam in 1948: Democratic Republic of Vietnam declared independence but, immediately invaded and recolonized by France in 1945. After France was expelled, the 1954 Geneva Accords divided the DRV to the north and the State of Vietnam to the south of the 17th parallel (included all Paracel and Spratly island chains). With the solid US supports, the State of Vietnam was replaced by the south’s Republic of Vietnam with 68 international recognitions as opposed to 43 of the north’s Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Followed the end of war in 1975, the DRV’s north and NLF’s south elected to unite 2 Vietnam(s) into 1 in 1976, with new constitution and name: Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The 30-years war with millions deaths and destruction as well as all other legal, civil facts clearly, showed vast difference in politics and realities of 1940’s and today’s Vietnam.]
    .
    Likewise, today’s China is not the same China in 1951 (when the US of A could arbitrarily exclude the PRC from the San Francisco conference) or 1960s (when China did not have an effective navy to protect its own territories in SCS) either.
    .
    China was deliberately excluded from the San Francisco conference. The US sold out on the interest of wartime allies- ESPECIALLY that of China:
    .
    ‘The result of the U.S. role in the occupation and in controlling the treaty process has been described by John Dower in his recent book, Embracing Defeat: “One of the most pernicious aspects of the occupation was that the Asian peoples who had suffered most from imperial Japan’s depredations– the Chinese, Koreans, Indonesians, and Filipinos had no serious role, no influential presence at all in the defeated land. They became invisible. Asian contributions to defeating the emperor’s soldiers and sailors were displaced by an all-consuming focus on the American victory in the Pacific War” (p. 27). The peripheralization of Asia in the SFPT therefore was no coincidence. It reflected the U.S.’s appropriation of the pan-Asian fight against Japanese imperialism as well as its determination to project its imperial values in the region. Japan would be its adjutant, a role for which Yoshida carefully fought. This required that the U.S. government fully nurture Japan’s dual identity — aligning it with the West and alienating it from Asia. Behind this manipulation also lay a deep-seated fear of Asian nationalism that was expressed through the demonization of communism. “‘
    .
    http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp78.html
    .
    Can you give references/links to your claims about which Geneva Accord, that granted what (Combodia? Laos?) to which Vietnam (North or South)? By Googling, I manage to find the following, which does not seem to collaborate your claims:
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Paracel_Islands
    .
    “At the San Francisco Conference of 1951, in response to the Soviet Union delegation’s request to revise the text of the Treaty to recognise the islands group of Paracels and Spratlys as the People’s Republic of China’s territories, 48 out of 51 delegations voted against.The People’s Republic of China (PRC) gained control of the Amphitrite Group of the Paracels in 1950, while South Vietnam controlled the Crescent Group from 1954 in the aftermath of the First Indochina War.[6] In 1957, the People’s Republic of China transferred control of White Dragon Tail Island, then part of Guangdong province, to North Vietnam, to aid its ally in the Vietnam War. One year later, North Vietnam recognized China’s claim to the Spratlys and Paracels, renouncing its own to them.[6][7][8] though South Vietnam did not accept this renunciation.[9] During the 1960s, however, the Republic of Vietnam Navy (ROVN) drove Chinese fishermen from the Paracel Island. The PRC could not effectively respond because the ROVN had significant air and naval support from the United States.[6]”

    .
    [ . The PRC, who co-chaired the 1954 Geneva Conference often mentioned Prime Minister Pham Van Dong’s letter as “Hanoi appeared to recognize Chinese sovereignty over the Spratlys and the Paracel Islands in 1958, but later changed its mind and claimed them back.” but, conveniently neglected known facts:
    .
    1) They never raised nor objected to the (south) ROV’s internationally, granted sovereignty by the Geneva Accords.]
    .
    To be accurate, those were the words of a contributor to WSJ, not of the PRC.
    .
    I have a very simple question: Was the ROV a legitimate sovereign state according the DRV and you?
    .
    1. If ROV was NOT a legitimate sovereign state, there is no business for DRV, or you, to require China to treat it as one.
    .
    In fact, China (PRC) did NOT recognize South Vietnam (ROV) as a legitimate sovereign state– China (PRC) only recognized, and still does, North Vietnam (DRV) as the legitimate government for all of Vietnam. There was no need to make such an objection against one that it did not consider having the right to exist– Such objections was automatic and implicit. China deals with DRV for all business concerning Vietnam– including all territories under ROV control or under its claim. China has been consistent on the position it takes.
    .
    2. Alternatively, South Vietnam (ROV) WAS a legitimate sovereign state. North Vietnam (DRV), and you, MUST then admit that the DRV was an AGGRESSOR against South Vietnam (ROV)– Which was the position the US of A took!!!
    .
    Having swallowed almost all of a sovereign ROV, then DRV is in no position to lecture China on matters concerning its own disputes with ROV– REGARDLESS whether ROV had legitimate claims on the SCS islets or not.
    .
    Now, take your pick but you can’t have it both ways.
    .
    [2) The DRV (north) had no jurisdiction over what controlled by the ROV.]
    .
    EXACTLY! You are saying it yourself. It was the ROV– NOT the DRV– that occupied some of the islands in SCS then and it was ROV that chased out Chinese fishermen working on those islands. By your own logic and implication therefore North Vietnam (DRV) had, and should have, “no jurisdiction over” these islands!!!
    .
    You have to be CONSISTENT with yourself. You cannot have your cake and eat it!

    .
    [3) The letter was about accepting Chinese 12-miles territorial waters claim, not sovereignty ]
    .
    Every country with a sea coast has sovereignty over its own “territorial waters” and any land that falls WITHIN its territorial waters belong to that country. Are you trying to tell me that China needed Pham Van Dong’s letter of acceptance in order to have its own “12-miles territorial waters”, something that ALL other countries (including Vietnam) AUTOMATICALLY had??? ;-D, ;-D, ;-D

    .
    [- DRV’s constitution dictated only Congress can address sovereignty, not the Prime Minister.]
    .
    Did the Congress of Vietnam have the power to approve and confirm Pham Van Dong as the Prime Minister of Vietnam???
    .
    If it did not have that power, then it has no authority to over-ride Pham’s commitments to China. If it did, it clearly had proved its incompetence by giving approval to such a foolish prime minister– Trying to grant China the right to have its own 12-mile territorial waters by sending a letter of acceptance!!!
    .
    And why is there the need to invoke the power of the Congress of Vietnam if Pham Van Dong did NOT give promises to China over the islets in South China Sea?

    .
    Devil’s}
    .
    China and Korea (South and North) will sort out any problem between them. Neither you, or Vietnam, are in a position to intervene.
    .
    .
    You know shit about Chinese history. Here is a piece of criminal Viet history for you:
    .
    “For quite a very long time, the world leaders have forgot Champa, and no ordinary people know anything about what has happened to Champa. By virtues of modern technologies, the history of the fallen Champa is now being revealed in the media networks and has attached worldwide attentions. The Champa’s history is the worst of all the world histories. The Champa’s enemy destroyed the whole country and everything it contained, massacred all its population, annihilated all its indigenous races and wiped out all the country’s boundaries. The Champa’s declared enemy is the north Vietnam, the Champa’s country is the so called central and South Vietnam and the Champa’s population and indigenous races are the Cham, Jarai, Radhe, Chru, Koho, Mnong Maa, Bahnar, Sedang, Cham Hroi and Stieng…Etc. The North Vietnam conquered the entire Champa’s territories and committed genocides on its whole population in order to expand land from North-Viet to south-Viet. The so-called central-Viet and south-Viet did not exist before the first half of 18th century. There is nothing left for the Champa’s survivors now but the conquered country itself which is absolutely priceless. The total number of the Champa’s living people today is estimated 1.5 million half of which live in Cambodia.”
    .
    http://www.chamtoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=218:thecaseofthefallenchampa&catid=47

    • Thanks: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Smith
  326. denk says:
    @Deep Thought

    There was a honeymoon bet Jp. /China in the 2000’s

    At its heyday,

    Ozawa Ichiro ‘led a, 600-strong, semi-official friendship mission to Beijing. That moment was the high point of a mood of empathetic cooperation. It pointed to a possible way forward, one in which sovereignty issues would be shelved and the development of resources resolved cooperatively (as indeed foreshadowed by several agreements reached and to some extent implemented during the early 21st century years), evolving gradually into some kind of regional community.

    PM Hatoyama Yukio agreed to China’s proposal to shelf the Diaoyu issue and move forward to normalising relation.

    For the mafiaso in Washington, this was his first deadly sin.

    To add insult to injury, Hatoyama also wanted murikkan rapists outta Okinawa.

    The straw that broke the camel’s back.

    IN true form, Hatoyama was ousted in 2014 by a palace court, much the same way Gould Whitnam of Oz was deposed in another palace coup for….cozying up to Beijing.

    As you can see, their 18C Chinese Exclusion Act has never stopped actually, it continues unabated under successive regimes, culminating to Trump’s FULL SPECTRUM GLOBAL CEA these days.

    OOps,
    China’s ally Serbia, just declared out of bound to Huawai and BRI.
    Another one bites the dust under
    fukus GCEA !

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  327. denk says:
    @Smith

    You can try this shit with the dumbfuck whites, but not against me who knows chink history as well as Asian history.

    Yet you’r parroting that dumbfuck shithead’s [aka RNS] nonsense.

    shithead

    Its all the fault of our ‘Chinese loving Jew overlords’

    YOu mean its those ‘Chinese loving Jews’ who make you into a ‘Chinese hating‘ raving mad dog ?

    shithead

    Han imperialism against its neighbors Tibet., Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia [sic]

    Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia are the results of Han Manchu, MOngol imperialism, kiddo

    The funniest part is about Mongolia,
    its called karma stupid,.

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  328. @denk

    All are Karma (I call it Retaliation in Kind):
    .
    .
    1) Tibet
    .
    The following is from an anti-China website:

    [MORE]

    .
    http://www.asianartmall.com/tibethistory.htm
    .
    “However, to go back in time, Tibet had created a huge empire in
    Central Asia. About 500 years prior to Buddha Sakyamuni coming to
    the world, which was around 1063 BC, a figure called Lord Shenrab
    Miwo had reformed the primitive ways of the Shen race. In fact,
    Miwo was the individual responsible for founding the Tibetan Bon
    religion. From 629 to 49 BC, King Songsten Gampo was on the
    throne. At this time, Tibet developed into a powerful military
    presence and Gampo strongly promoted Buddhism. Then from 755 to
    97, King Trisong Detsen took over reign, a time when the Tibetan
    Empire was at its best. The arms invaded several other Central
    Asian countries in addition to China. Then in 763, the Chinese
    capital at Ch’ang-an, which is today known as Xian, was seized by
    the Tibetans. The Emperor fled, allowing the Tibetans to appoint a
    new Emperor. ”
    .
    So, when did the Natives of America and the Aboriginals of Australia invade Europe (or
    seize London), that might gave the whites justification to
    their subsequent occupation of Australia. If not, when are you
    people going to quit America and Australia, and return the lands you have stolen
    to the peoples who truly own it?
    .
    .
    2) Mongolia
    .
    Of course, everyone knows that is what the Khans deserve from the Chinese.
    .
    .
    3) Manchuria
    .
    Ditto Mongolia
    .
    .
    4) Xinjiang
    .
    The nomadic tribes invaded and plundered the settled peoples of Han China for as long as there was Chinese history. First there was the Xiongnu. After they were driven to exile by Han Wudi, a whole line of scums start filling their place.
    .
    This is my exchange with some South Korean poster (Kim77) on the Economist forum some years ago:
    .
    {Devils Advocate_1in reply to Kim77Mar 8th, 06:43
    .
    [Kim77in reply to rep3Mar 7th, 06:13
    .
    “Uighurs themselves are not natives of the region. They were steppe normads who killed off the Torochans and was planning to conquer China before themselves being overran by the Krygze. They were under the dominion of the Oriats before being saved by Qianlong.”
    .
    Well, you are being economical with historical facts there. The only reason why Uyghurs now consider themselves the natives of Xinjiang is because the Qing empire killed off the original inhabitants – the Dzungars, a western Mongol offshoot.]
    .
    If what you say is true, it only confirms that what rep3 said is right– which is that the Uyghurs, Hans and other Chinese minorities are not the original inhabitants of Xinjiang. This fact alone should give all Chinese equal access to this land. Besides, the Uyghurs can move all over the land of China, and that is why they turned up in Kunming. So, why can’t Hans move to Xinjiang?
    .
    You say it yourself: It was the Qing empire, which was run by the Manchus, that “killed off the original inhabitants– the Dzungars”. Then why blame the Hans, who suffered equally under Manchu domination? It is like the Koreans today blaming the Chinese for the crimes the Japanese had done to the Koreans. Have you not noticed what you yourself said? The Dzungars were NOT killed off when Han people were running China– Despite the fact that they were one of the nomadic tribes who had invaded, plundered and raped Han China for as long as there was Chinese history. And because they were “a western Mongol offshoot”, they must have been part of Genghis’ Golden Horde, who had committed genocides against the Han people, that were at least as atrocious as those of the Manchus!!!
    .
    Your “being economical with historical facts” reminds me of some incidence a decade or more ago when some North Korean escapees tracked through China to South East Asia and eventually ended up in South Korea. The Chinese government clearly turned a blind eye to it and allowed that to happen. But that was not enough for some Korea propagandists from South Korea. They therefore STAGED a high profile rush toward the gate of the South Korean Embassy in Beijing. With TV camera put in the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time, they filmed the whole process and then broadcast it all over the world with the sole purpose to cause embarrassment to the Chinese government. The Chinese government then retaliated and sent every captured NK escapees back to the Kims and the South Korean propagandists were left to sob over the shit that was their own making and to despair over their helplessness now without further Chinese assistance to make such escapes possible.
    .
    The Chinese haven’t a clue about the mentality of the Koreans despite having been bitten on the hand by the Kims. The Kims, however, have an INNATE understanding of Korean psychology and today’s NK is the proof.
    .
    You simply cannot be too cruel to some people. Feeding them with kindness can only encourage them to bite you on the hand. The Kims understand that but the Chinese don’t.
    .
    Devil’s}
    .
    .
    5) The Japponese were as atrocious as the Mongol and the Manchus.
    .
    .
    6) Of course, there are scores with the white West the still need to be settled.

    • Replies: @denk
  329. @denk

    Hatoyama was one of the very few sensible Japanese post-war prime minsters. There was another one who was thinner and had white-hair. I can’t remember his name though.
    .
    The difference between postwar Germany and Japan is that in Germany most people atone for the crimes of Nazi Germany and neo-Nazis are small in number and are marginalised. In Jappon, the opposite is the case. Given below is an example:
    .
    {Devils Advocate_1in reply to Kara no Kyoukai
    [Kara no Kyoukai reply to Pacific 15th, 04:30
    China never defeated Japan. Japan surrendered only to the United States…]
    .
    There is some truth in your statement and it only confirms what many believe, which is that the Japanese only respects BRUTE FORCE. There is also some eerie similarity in mentality between the Japan of today and Germany between the World Wars.
    .
    After WWI, the German army felt “betrayed” by their politicians, who surrendered “without being militarily defeated”. As a result the German right-wing did not feel obliged to accept the terms of their defeat. All that changed after WWII, in which Germany was not only soundly defeated but did so by its main victim– USSR. The Rape of Berlin woke up the Germans so much that the denial of the Holocaust became a crime in Germany.
    .
    The fact that the main victims of Imperial Japan– China, Korea– did not actually militarily defeat Japan makes the Japanese right-wing arrogant. They feel that they are superior to their former victims while instinctively submitting to their white conquerors. It will have to take a “Rape of Tokyo” to bring them to their senses.
    .
    Needless to say, your statement above merely admits that, of the War in the Pacific and East Asia, only the part between Japan and the US is settled. The part between Japan and its Asian victims is still unfinished and remains suspended. Like the war in Europe, it will take a 2nd session to bring it to conclusion. Fortunately, unlike the first session, this 2nd session will be fought when the aggressor, Japan, will be weak while its victims, China, Korea and other Asian countries, will be strong. THAT will be poetic justice done!
    .
    Devil’s}

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Malla
    , @antibeast
  330. antibeast says:
    @Smith

    So why is there still a South Korea now? The North Korean also has greater military achievement than the chinks, considering they made it all the way to Busan. Meanwhile, chinkies fight only to preserve status quo, nothing more, that’s why they lost Seoul despite having beaten the americans.

    Dude, you’re cock crazy about the North Koreans, aren’t you?

    The North Koreans were stupid enough to invade South Korea, deluded into the war by the support given by Stalin. But the Chinese were reluctant to participate in the failed North Korean invasion due to the risks of inviting US military intervention which is exactly what happened after the North Koreans captured Seoul and marched all the way to Busan. The North Koreans did not have the military means of defending captured territory in South Korea which allowed the US military to recapture Seoul and push them back behind the 38th parallel, all the way to the Yalu River which finally triggered military intervention by the Chinese who had warned the Americans against invading North Korea.

    Contrary to Western “fake news” accounts of so-called “human wave attacks”, the Chinese guerilla-warfare tactic of infiltrating and hiding behind enemy lines followed by “human swarming attacks” did succeed in destroying the front-lines held by the US military inside North Korea. Chinese infantry would march at night under cover of darkness in small teams to cross the front-lines and then surround and attack the Americans during daytime. These “human swarming attacks” disrupted the frontlines of the Americans whose superior hardware could not defend against Chinese guerrilla-warfare. Individual accounts of Americans who survived the ordeal described “being surrounded by and getting attacked from all sides”. Remember the Chinese infantry only had light arms not heavy artillery without any air support whatsoever. And yet the Chinese pushed back the US military out of North Korea, behind the 38th parallel and recaptured Seoul. But the Chinese committed the same tactical mistake as the North Koreans in holding on to Seoul because they both lacked the military hardware, air support and supply-lines to maintain their front-lines and defend captured territory inside South Korea. When the time came for the US military to launch their counter-offensives, the Chinese suffered most of its casualties during this last phase of trying to defend capture territory inside enemy front-lines without adequate supply-lines, military hardware and air support. The Americans bombed out North Korea, killing 30% of its civilian population during this time. So the Chinese did the right thing by withdrawing from South Korea behind the 38th parallel and sued for peace with the Americans.

    The North Koreans didn’t have political support inside South Korea unlike the North Vietnamese who had the Vietcong inside South Vietnam. This was the crucial difference between the North Korean “Stalinist” strategy of massive invasion vs the North Vietnamese “Maoist” strategy of protracted “People’s War”. The North Koreans were too cocky in assuming that Stalin’s support was enough to successfully invade South Korea, concluding incorrectly from the CPC’s victory over the KMT in China that the US military would not intervene. As it were, the Korean War not only drew the USA on the side of South Koreans but also the UN. That wasn’t the case in the Vietnam War when the USA became isolated from the West and the world.

    In short, the Korean War was a stupid war due to its failed strategy and bad tactics. No comparison with the Vietnam War. The rest of your post is anti-Chinese psychotic non-sense.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  331. denk says:
    @Deep Thought

    A former Japanese diplomat has accused the United States of manipulating Japan since the second world war in order to “eliminate” prime ministers who sought to develop better relations with Beijing
    ………….
    To achieve its control of Japan’s political processes, Washington has interfered with media coverage, encouraged opposition parties, twisted public opinion and even brought down governments by “eliminating” key cabinet members, Magosaki claims.

    Two of the Japanese politicians who he claims have been hounded for their independent thoughts have been Yukio Hatoyama, who lasted less then nine months as prime minister until June 2010, and Ichiro Ozawa, whose reputation has been tarnished by a financial scandal and a legal case.

    Magosaki believes that had Hatoyama remained in power, the government would not be making moves to restart Japan’s nuclear reactors – shut down in the aftermath of the disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant – and would not have gone ahead with raising the consumption tax or deploying US military Osprey aircraft to Okinawa.

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5f_1351781752

  332. denk says:
    @Deep Thought

    All are Karma (I call it Retaliation in Kind):

    Well said.

    The Mongols, MaNchus, Xiongnu, Tibetans etc pose a constant existential threat to China thru out its long history.

    The Mongols and Manchus had actually each conquered China for hundreds of years,.

    These invaders shoudnt complain when they were eventually subdued and absorbed,.

    Come to think of it, they should thank their stars that the Hans never took revenge on them for committing genocides during the invasion.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  333. @Malla

    I think I will write more long and “boring” posts on Unz.

    At least use the MORE Tag – it’s there for a purpose.

  334. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    Most Indians believe that China took our territory. I am not sure what happened. The Pakistanis believe China invaded our territory and conquered much more than we Indians are ready to concede as we were building/developing a road, which would lead to a forward Indian base which could threaten CPEC and the Chinese wanted higher ground to have some control on the road (which is still in Indian hands but the PLA not controls the high ground near it). India still claims that China invaded us, which I do not believe blindly. because in 1962, we were taught how China sneakily attacked us but the truth was India invaded China via the forward policy.
    Whatever it is, the most important point is that the Indian population is now very anti-China and maybe for the first time sees China as enemy number 1 of the Indian nation, more than even Pakistan. This has created a situation that the Indian population wants vengeance against China and there is a mass popular pressure on the Govt to do something. Fortunately thanks to Russia, there has been a meeting of Indian and Chinese ministers and there has been agreement to cool it off. Only the Russians can play good mediators as they have good relations with both India and China.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Deep Thought
  335. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    After WWI, the German army felt “betrayed” by their politicians, who surrendered “without being militarily defeated”. As a result the German right-wing did not feel obliged to accept the terms of their defeat.

    They were betrayed thanks to the Balfour Agreement. If anything, it is Germans who will have to take revenge on Jews for using their British, American and Soviet slaves to crush Germany. It was Germany in Europe, which gave Jews all the rights only to be backstabbed. If there is justice, it is Germany which should get justice. But there has been justice.
    All of Germany’s three main enemies have collapsed and become weaker.
    The British lost their Empire, The Soviet Union collapsed and now the United States is left. Some kind of Hitler’s curse. It will collapse too and that will be a kind of justice.
    As far as Japan and Asia, it is complicated.
    “Pearl Harbour was a madman’s (President Franklin Roosevelt) plot for the US to attack Germany. Roosevelt’s total economic sanctions against Japan and his contemptuous refusal of the Japanese Prim Minister’s peace proposal in September were the crucial precursor to Pearl Harbour. Had we not provoked the Japanese, they would never have attacked us.”
    —Herbert Hoover. 31st President of the United States of America.

    “American people will be shocked to hear what I have discovered. Harry White who wrote the ultimatum to Japan, the Hull Note, was a Soviet spy. [Verona files declassified in 1995.]. Nobody in Congress knew of such a provocative note delivered to Japan, which was desperately trying to negotiate a peaceful solution with the united States. With the note, Japan was left with no choice but to fight back or starve to death.”
    —–Hamilton Fish III, Republican Party Leader

    Verona files are Soviet cryptograms, name a total of about 300 Soviet spies in the US Government and many of them played a important roles in cornering Japan to Pearl Harbour, using atomic bombs and the unlawful weakening of Japan during occupation]

    “Tokyo Tribunal of War Criminals is the worst hypocracy in the history of mankind. If the United States were in the same situation as Japan was in, it would have fought the same way. The Japanese fought to defend their country.”
    —-U.S. Major General Charles Andrew Willougby, who because of the unfairness of the trails prohibited his sons to join the military.

    “Once the undefeated Japanese army was left with nothing but their spirits, they were defeated in the end. However, they left something behind, which is the fact that they removed all the Westerners from Asia.”
    —Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma.

    “The Fall of Singapore meant the end of the history of White colonialism.”
    ———Charles de Gaulle, President of the French Republic

    “What Japan has carried through bravely was to completely put an end to the colonial occupations by the West.”
    ———-Owen Lattimore, advisor to Chiang Kai-shek

    “The Japanese did nothing to us that they have to apologize for. This is the reason that we do not attend the San Francisco Peace Conference and refuse to sign on its peace treaty.”
    ————-Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first Prime Minister.

    “At the San Francisco Peace Conference (1951):
    We should never forget how the people of Asia, who hoped for their independence find sympathy with the Japanese ideal.”
    ———-Julius Jayewardene, Prime Minister of Sri Lanka

    “What does Japan have to make an apology? In that war, the Japanese got rid of the British didn’t they? We should not forget we welcomed the Japanese army with such joy. Without the Japanese, there would have been no independence of South East Asia. If we try to deny the precious sacrifices that the Japanese made, it is like looking ony at the back mirror.”
    ————-Ghazali Shafie, Foreign Minister of Malaysia

    “When the Japanese army marched into the Malay peninsula, we all let out a whoop of joy. And when we saw the retreating British Army, I shivered as if I had never experienced before. The Japanese removed all the Western forces that had been colonizing Asia for such a long time. We had almost given up our hope but the Japanese gave us the sensation and confidence.”
    —–Ungku Abdul Aziz, Vice Chancellor of the University of Malaya in Malaysia.

    “We delightfully welcomed the Japanese army. They brought us many things for our future independence. Japan massacred civilians in Malaysia? No there is no such evidence.”
    Raja Dato Nong Chik. Senator od Malaysia and leading advocate of ASEAN.

    The Japanese military occupation planted the seeds of independence in the people of Malays.
    —Zainul Abideen, malaysian Historian

    “Asia gained independence because of Japan. Japan, who acted as our mother, bore babies of Asian countries but destructed her maternal body. Who made us talk equally with the West today? It is because of the mother Japan, who almost killed herself to give the birth. We should never forget December 8.”
    ———-Seni Pramo, Prime Minister of Thailand

    “The Japanese occupation was harsh, but it was the Japanese Army which terminated the Western domination of Asia. That gave Asia the confidence. Within 15 years of the War, all Asian colonies were freed.”
    ——–Goh Chok Tong, Prime Minister of Singapore

    “There is no country that contributed to Asia as Japan did. And there is no country that is more misunderstood than Japan is. It was the Japanese who freed us from the White domination. The true friend of Independent Burma was General Tojo and Japan.”
    ——Ba Maw, Independence Leadar and Prime Minister of Burma.

    “The training in the Japanese Army was so harsh that I almost almost committed suicide. However, when Rangoon fell, we were convinced that what we had been doing was right.”
    —–Aung Sa, legendary figure of Burmese Independence, Father of Aung San Suu Kyi. He had fled to Japan with 30 others of his countrymen to train in the Japanese Army to fight the British Empire.

    “A country motivated by high ideals and lofty objectives had sacrificed its lives and all of its assets. That country is a Far East island nation of Japan.”
    ———U Nu, Foreign Minister of Burma.

    “The reason that Indonesia was able to win its independence from the Netherlands is that the same coloured Asian of the Japanese had fought that much and gave us confidence that we could do the same.”
    —–Sukarno, Prime Minister of Indonesia

    “After WW2, many Japanse stayed in Indonesia to fight with us. We decorated their graves with orders, but they gave us a lot more than just their medals.”
    —–Sanpas, Minister of Demobilized Soldier of Indonesia.

    “We wanted the Japanese to hold for another five years. Then, the Middle East and Africa would have gained their independence much sooner.”
    ——Aramsa, Indonesia Army General.

    “That war was really our war. We should have fought it ourselves. But we put everything on Japan’s shoulders and that plunged her into almost total destruction. I am sorry.”
    —-Bung Tomo, Minister of Information of Indonesia and Indonesian military leader aginst the Dutch Empire.

    “I am going to the Yasukuni Shrine to pray for my brother who died in the War. It is natural if I am his brother, right?”
    ———-Li Teng-hui. President of the Republic of China

    “I was born in a family of a very poor farmer and so I could never dream of going to school. It was a Japanese official who persuaded my parents to send me to primary school, And it was a Japanese teacher who recommended me to the Japanese Army War College. the reason I am here today is because of the compulsory education system they introduced, and because of the clean and honest Japanese people.”
    ——Chunghee Park, President of Korea.

    “The Japanese proved their lofty spirits and ideals by eventually abolishing its military government to authorize the establishment of the Republic of the Philippine. The Japanese sincerely honoured all of its pledges and manifestos by providing us the opportunity to establish a country of our own cultures and traditions, and with constitutions set up by our citizens.”
    ——-F.B. Vargas, Philippine Ambassador to Japan.

    “In Asia, there was a Japan. But in Arabs, there is no Japan”
    ——-President Jamal Abd al-Nasir of Egypt after the defeat in the Third Middle Eastern War.

    “When I first accepted this assignment, frankly speaking I regretted it because I thought there would be no chance of winning. However, as I examined and researched what happened the innocence of the defendants was becoming very obvious. Right from the beginning, Japan never had any ambition for invasion. I can make this definitive statement that they are all not guilty.”
    ———Wiliam Logan, a counsel at the International Military Tribunal for the Far East.

    Not only the Tokyo Tribunal of War Criminals had some critical misjudgments, but as a whole it was unfair tribunal which was based on the desire for revenge.
    —–Joseph Keenan, Chief Prosecutor in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @antibeast
  336. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    The Southern Campaign of the Imperial Japanese Army was brilliantly executed but strategically flawed. The Japanese fell for the trap laid by the Americans (primarily FDR’s Wall Street backers) and attacked Pearl Harbor and the then US colony of the Philippines. Remember that FDR wanted the USA to declare war against Nazi Germany but couldn’t get Nazi Germany to attack the USA. So they devised a plot by imposing economic sanctions against Imperial Japan. But the Japanese could have attacked Southeast Asia without invading the Philippines or bombing Pearl Harbor. By 1941, Nazi Germany was already at war with the UK, France and the Netherlands so their Japanese allies could have limited their Southern Campaign to target only British, French and Dutch colonies in Southeast Asia. The Japanese invasion of Burma, for example, was designed to cut-off Chiang Kai-Shek’s access to US military supplies over the Himalayas. Likewise, the Japanese invasion of Singapore was designed to cut-off British access to the Straits of Malacca while denying Dutch access to Indonesia.

    Chiang Kai-Shek’s American-educated wife had managed to convince the Americans to help the ROC’s Air Force by allowing US pilots to form the “Flying Tigers” under the command of the American Claire Lee Chennault. While this in and of itself does not constitute US involvement in the Sino-Japanese War, the fact that they were Americans was a political liability that could be interpreted as American involvement by the Japanese. In any case, this US military support plus the American “Lend-Lease” material assistance to Chiang Kai-Shek airdropped over the Himalayas meant that the Japanese had considered these “acts of war” as hostile to Japan and thus provided the casus belli for the Southern Campaign given that the Sino-Japanese War had entered into a stalemate as Chiang Kai-Shek had successfully hindered any Japanese advance for four years.

    Lastly, after having won the hearts of Southeast Asians as “liberators” during the invasion, the Japanese became sadistic, brutal and savage in their subsequent colonization of Southeast Asia which turned the natives against them. That finally sealed their fate as the Americans prepared for their entry into WWII. The rest as they say is history.

  337. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    You forgot Subhas Chandra Bose and his Indian National Army.

  338. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Fortunately thanks to Russia, there has been a meeting of Indian and Chinese ministers and there has been agreement to cool it off. Only the Russians can play good mediators as they have good relations with both India and China.

    Russia has the most to lose from India’s Pivot to the USA because 25% of its weapons exports goes to India. The Indians better come to their senses if they want Russia to remain in good terms with India.

  339. antibeast says:
    @Deep Thought

    The fact that the main victims of Imperial Japan– China, Korea– did not actually militarily defeat Japan makes the Japanese right-wing arrogant. They feel that they are superior to their former victims while instinctively submitting to their white conquerors. It will have to take a “Rape of Tokyo” to bring them to their senses.

    Chiang Kai-Shek only needed a few more months to defeat the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) in China until the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the Soviet Red Army had defeated the Kwantung Army in Manchuria a few weeks later. So the remaining IJA garrisons in Eastern China would not have lasted longer than a few more months after Operation Carbonado allowed the Chinese Nationalist Army to capture Southern China, possibly joined by the Chinese Red Army which had moved into Manchuria, gaining access to heavy artillery and munitions factories left behind by the IJA. The atomic bombings were not necessary as the IJA were getting clobbered throughout 1945 in China and elsewhere in Southeast Asia as the Chinese Nationalist Army defeated the IJA in Burma. And the IJA did surrender to China (KMT) in Nanjing.

    Needless to say, your statement above merely admits that, of the War in the Pacific and East Asia, only the part between Japan and the US is settled. The part between Japan and its Asian victims is still unfinished and remains suspended. Like the war in Europe, it will take a 2nd session to bring it to conclusion. Fortunately, unlike the first session, this 2nd session will be fought when the aggressor, Japan, will be weak while its victims, China, Korea and other Asian countries, will be strong. THAT will be poetic justice done!

    No, you’re wrong. Japan did surrender to the allies which includes China. Both the KMT and the CPC later renounced their claims to war reparations from Imperial Japan after the war.

    File photo taken on Sept. 9, 1945 shows He Yingqin (L), representative of the Chinese government, receiving the surrender of Japan in Nanjing, east China. On Aug. 15, 1945, Japanese Emperor Hirohito delivered a recorded radio address to the nation, announcing the surrender of Japan in World War II, one day after Japan declared its acceptance of the provisions of the Potsdam Proclamation jointly issued by China, the United States and Britain on July 26, 1945, with the Soviet Union joining later.

    If the Chinese wanted vengeance, they would have done so to the million or so Japanese civilians living in Manchuria. Unlike the Soviets and Europeans however, the Chinese did NOT violate the human rights of Japanese civilians living in Manchuria who were peacefully repatriated to Japan after the war. Compare that to what happened to millions of ethnic Germans as well as German POWs in Europe. Even German-Americans suffered after 10,000 were interned during the war, none of whom received any apology nor compensation from the US government in contrast to Japanese-Americans who received an official apology and paid compensation by the US government,

  340. denk says:
    @Really No Shit

    Break up China ,

    [[[[YOu]]]’ve been doing it since time immemorial,

    Eight nations alliance,

    Ever since you lost China to the commies…

    1959 CIA staged riots

    1962 indo/sino war

    1989 TAM

    2003 SARS1

    2008 Tibet riots

    2009 Xinjiang bloodbath

    2014 HK riots

    2019 HK riots, SARS2, SWINE flu,
    bird flu….GLOBAL CEA

    problem solved

    What’s the problem back then,
    whats’s the excuse ?

    Im not asking this mofo, anyone of the 70% sinophobic murikkans are welcomed to answer.

    ————

    and India into several states … the problem solved!

    Thats no way to treat a pardner, .

    Havent heard of the G3 ?

    https://zeenews.india.com/india/setback-for-china-as-us-israel-agree-to-collaborate-with-india-in-developing-5g-technology-2308406.html

    [[[ ]]] = five liars.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  341. @Malla

    I do not know the full story either. There is clearly a lot of distrust there. I hope somehow the distrust could be dispelled so that India, China, Pakistan, etc could all cooperate and benefit from further economic development together.

    • Replies: @Malla
  342. Smith says:
    @Deep Thought

    Who’s Bob? An american, really now?

    Read what I said:

    Irrelevant, the chinks do this out of geopolitical interest, in order to counter the americans. They wish to maintain the status quo in order to divide Vietnam, as well as bleeding out America. Luckily, North Vietnam has enough initiative to liberate/unify South Vietnam and this is rewarded by the chink funding Pol Pot with the americans and performing its own invasion in 1979 to punish Vietnam.

    @ denk
    Don’t care what’s going on between you and India, but your China benevolence dindu nuffin is a myth.

    China was an empire at its time, and it regularly waged wars everywhere it can.

    And nice job, blaming the xiongnu, mongols and manchu while taking up the achievements. And the Han invaded Korea too, MULTIPLE chink dynasties in fact.

    @ antibeast

    Cut the crap my man, you know full well the americans and the south koreas were practically push to the sea, but somehow the americans miraculously “reformed” and pushed out the chinks and maintained the exact status quo, despite the fact the momentum of the chinks.

    This is like the 1943-44 USSR suddenly stopping at Warsaw and never moving to Berlin in WW2 and pushed out of Poland a month because the germans miraculously reformed the last battlations.

    There’s backroom deal involved between the USA and China, and a divided Korea helps the chinese immensely, they can please the american soon-to-be allies on the other side of the pond, meanwhile both S. Korea and N. Korea have to mediate through China and USA in order for re-union.

    I bet my ass if North Vietnam was pushed back in 1975 in an alt reality, you would be here saying the North Vietnam Army made a mistake.

    And point out the wrong things I said, where’s the nonsense?

  343. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    Han “took revenge” on the descendants of Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Asiatic Turks etc. in a better way – they intermarried and also fully integrated those descendants into Chinese society.

    Contrast this with the large “reservations” into which the North American Native peoples were herded, and in which many of their descendants remain.

    Ever heard of ethnic-minority reservations in China? No? That’s because they don’t exist. Chinese society works to assimilate, not to divide.

    • Replies: @denk
  344. antibeast says:
    @Smith

    Cut the crap my man, you know full well the americans and the south koreas were practically push to the sea, but somehow the americans miraculously “reformed” and pushed out the chinks and maintained the exact status quo, despite the fact the momentum of the chinks.

    You’re ignoring the North Korean invasion which pushed the Americans nearly out of South Korea after capturing Seoul. How come the North Koreans failed to defend their positions inside South Korea until the Americans recaptured Seoul and pushed them behind the 38th parallel? China intervened only because the Americans ignored Chinese warnings NOT to invade North Korea.

    This is like the 1943-44 USSR suddenly stopping at Warsaw and never moving to Berlin in WW2 and pushed out of Poland a month because the germans miraculously reformed the last battalions.

    Nope. Both the North Korean and Chinese invasions of South Korea were similar to the Tet Offensive which ended with the withdrawal of the North Vietnamese who suffered heavy casualties due to the failure of the massive invasion against South Vietnam. Here’s the Wikipedia entry:

    The leadership in Hanoi was despondent at the outcome of their offensive. Their first and most ambitious goal, producing a general uprising, had ended in a dismal failure. In total, about 85,000–100,000 PAVN/VC troops had participated in the initial onslaught and in the follow-up phases. Overall, during the “Border Battles” of 1967 and the nine-month winter-spring campaign, 45,267 PAVN/VC troops had been killed in action.

    Hanoi had underestimated the strategic mobility of the allied forces, which allowed them to redeploy at will to threatened areas; their battle plan was too complex and difficult to coordinate, which was amply demonstrated by the 30 January attacks; their violation of the principle of mass, attacking everywhere instead of concentrating their forces on a few specific targets, allowed their forces to be defeated piecemeal; the launching of massed attacks headlong into the teeth of vastly superior firepower; and last, but not least, the incorrect assumptions upon which the entire campaign was based. According to General Tran Van Tra: “We did not correctly evaluate the specific balance of forces between ourselves and the enemy, did not fully realize that the enemy still had considerable capabilities, and that our capabilities were limited, and set requirements that were beyond our actual strength.”

    Read the above description on the Tet Offensive and note that the North Vietnamese themselves realized their tactical mistake of “launching of massed attacks headlong into the teeth of vastly superior firepower” which was exactly the wrong tactics used by the North Koreans in invading South Korea. The Chinese could have stopped at the 38th parallel instead of recklessly invading South Korea to recapture Seoul which was impossible to defend against the superior firepower of the Americans. The North Koreans could not even defend their supply-lines back in their homeland which was subjected to intense “strategic bombing” by the Americans while the Chinese lacked the military hardware and air support to defend their frontlines against the Americans. The Chinese PVA consisted of light infantry divisions whose initial “swarming attacks” did succeed in pushing the Americans out of North Korea beyond which is enemy territory. No way the Chinese could have defended those enemy territory.

    There’s backroom deal involved between the USA and China, and a divided Korea helps the Chinese immensely, they can please the American soon-to-be allies on the other side of the pond, meanwhile both S. Korea and N. Korea have to mediate through China and USA in order for re-union.

    Nope. North Korea lost 30% of its civilian population due to the genocidal bombings by the Americans while the Chinese PVA suffered most of its casualties defending the frontlines in South Korea. China did the right thing as the hard-headed North Koreans did not want to change their ill-conceived “Stalinist” strategy of massive invasion using massed attacks against enemy frontlines. After the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese reverted back to their Maoist strategy of “People’s War” which ultimately succeeded in breaking the political will of the USA.

    • Replies: @Smith
  345. @Smith

    Without China, Nam would have had trouble handling France– Let alone Amelika:
    .
    Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge
    by Bob Seals

    [MORE]

    “Best turn it into a bigger war…I’m afraid you really ought to send more troops to the South…Don’t be afraid of U.S. intervention, at most it’s no worse than having another Korean War. The Chinese army is prepared, and if America takes the risk of attacking North Vietnam, the Chinese army will march in at once. Our troops want a war now.” [1]
    — Mao speaking to the North Vietnamese in 1964

    So why did the powerful modern nations of France and the United States lose two wars in Vietnam to a third rate military power like North Vietnam? This is the logical question that many historians have asked and attempted to answer since the Second Vietnam War ended in April 1975 with the fall of Saigon to North Vietnamese tanks. Some historians have stressed the support of the Communist party and its leadership, others point to the support of the Vietnamese people, and still other historians explain the North Vietnamese victory as an effect of the post-colonial nationalism wave that swept through Asia after the Second World War. However, few historians, with the possible exception of Qiang Zhai, among others, attribute the victory of the Vietnamese Communists in both Vietnam Wars to the considerable support provided by the communist colossus of the north, the People’s Republic of China. [2] This Chinese military support, to include equipment, advisors and planning assistance, provided from 1949-1975, would prove in both the First and Second Indochina Wars to be decisive. This substantial military support would give the People‘s Army of Vietnam an edge to resist Western forces and eventually subjugate the Republic of South Vietnam. This support, for various reasons, has never really been acknowledged by most popular histories of the conflict. This is perhaps due to the fact that such acknowledgement of the massive Chinese military support provided challenges many cherished myths of Vietnamese Communist military brilliance and the “heroic struggle” against overwhelming western imperialists. Two recent histories bear this out. Case in point A Military History of China, edited by David A. Graff makes no mention of Chinese support for Vietnam while Bruce A. Elleman’s Modern Chinese Warfare, 1795-1989, dismisses Chinese support in a mere two sentences. [3] However, unless this decisive Chinese support is properly understood by students of both Vietnam wars the answer to the question of why North Vietnam won will remain incomplete and misunderstood. This paper will attempt to outline the Chinese communist support in both wars and explain exactly why this support was so decisive.

    Background

    As with most historical events one must first understand, in broad general terms, the background and context to a specific point in time. A brief review of the historical Sino-Vietnamese relationship sets the tone for more recent events, in many respects. Ties between China and Vietnam have existed for centuries; in fact, throughout history Vietnam has depended upon and looked towards China repeatedly for not only cultural but political assistance as circumstances warranted. Vietnam was considered by China to be part of her tributary system, or sphere of influence if you will, where by the lesser state, Vietnam, would acknowledge the leadership of Imperial China in return for trade and defense as required. In the 18th century, for example Chinese troops intervened in Vietnam to assist a threatened ruler and again less successfully in the latter half of the 19th century against France expanding her influence in the area, with the so-called “Black Flag” forces. This concern for Vietnam would continue with China declaring war on France on 27 August 1884, in fact, due to French expansion into Northern Vietnam. [4]

    This traditional relationship between China and Vietnam was not always harmonious as many have pointed out, since, for obvious reasons, no nation enjoys domination by a more powerful neighbor.

    The Chinese Vietnamese Communist ties had existed for decades, in fact, before the first Chinese military advisor arrived in North Vietnam in 1950. The life of Nguyen That Thanh, who would ultimately be known to the world under the pseudonym Ho Chi Minh, best personifies the close relationship that existed between the two communist parties, and ultimately the two armies.

    The ties go back to right after the First World War, in fact. In 1920 Ho would be one of 285 delegates, and the only “Comrade Indochinese Delegate,” that founded the French Communist Party in Tours. [5] Ho made an impassioned speech at the conference listing France’s crimes in Vietnam “…we have not only been oppressed and exploited shamelessly, but also tortured and poisoned…we have been poisoned with opium, alcohol, etc.” [6]

    The following year the Chinese Communist Party would be formed in 1921. The party from the beginning would serve as a rallying point for disgruntled Vietnamese such as Ho, and others, wanting to resist French rule in Vietnam. [7] After several years of training in Moscow, Ho eventually made his way to China, the then front lines of the revolution, to assist Mikhail Borodin, the Communist International, or COMINTERN representative to the new Nationalist government of Sun Yat-sen. Organizing Vietnamese revolutionaries in Canton, Ho lectured at the famous Nationalist Whampoa Military Academy, meeting such communist luminaries such as Zhou Enlai and others, before returning to Moscow after the Chinese Nationalist-Communist split in 1927. [8] He would also organize the Indochinese Communist Party in 1930 which in time would become the Vietnamese Worker Party. A dedicated COMINTERN agent who traveled on a Soviet passport, Ho was known as Nguyen Ai Quoc (Nguyen the Patriot) during this period and would only be known as Ho Chi Minh (Ho the Enlightened ) after 1943. He would travel between Asia and Moscow before finally returning to China in 1938 to serve as an advisor to the Chinese Communist 8th Route Army, along with other senior Vietnamese revolutionaries. [9] Ho became quite proficient in Chinese and would translate Mao’s celebrated work, “On the Protracted War,” from Chinese into French. [10]

    Second World War and French Reoccupation

    Seasoned by years of training and his experiences China Ho would found the Viet Minh independence movement in 1941, the Vietnamese Doc Lap Dong Minh Hoi, the League for the Independence of Vietnam, or Viet Minh. He would spend the remainder of the war organizing in the north of Vietnam and attempting to remain out of French and Chinese jail. During the war the Viet Minh would consolidate their power in the north of Vietnam with history teacher turned General Vo Nguygen Giap building communist forces reaching some 5,000 in number. [11]

    By the time the Second World War ended in August of 1945, with the collapse of Imperial Japan, the organized and disciplined Vietnamese communists and Ho were perfectly positioned to move into the power vacuum left in the wars wake in Vietnam. In September of 1945 Ho would proclaim the establishment of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) with American Office of Strategic Service (OSS) officers beside him in Hanoi. Nationalist Chinese and British troops that same month arrived to take the surrender of the Japanese forces, with reoccupation by the returning French soon afterwards. A period of unease settled over Vietnam with the French and Vietnamese negotiated over the future of Vietnam, with Ho at one point traveling to Paris for unsuccessful meetings with the French government. Ho would formally request military aid to include advisors and equipment from Stalin and the USSR in 1945, with no response to these requests given in return. [12] The Chinese in the future would not make the same mistake.

    First Indochina War

    The First Vietnam War would finally begin in December of 1946 as the French attempted to disarm the Viet Minh Self Defense Forces in Hanoi and full scale fighting broke out. [13] By early 1947 the French had driven the Viet Minh out of the major cities throughout the country but the communists controlled the countryside in the north with a growing army of some 50,000 men capable of standing up to the best the professional French Army and Navy could throw at them. [14] The war settled down to a deadly affair of guerrilla war, ambush and counter ambush as the Vietnamese and French forces fought for control of Vietnam and the population.

    It was during these early years of the war that the Chinese military support of the People’s Army of Vietnam (PAVN) began on a rather minor scale. This military aid started in March of 1946 as the Chinese Communist First Regiment of the Southern Guangdong People’s Force crossed into Vietnam in order to avoid Chiang Kai-Shek’s Nationalist 46th and 64th Armies during the Chinese Civil War. [15] In addition to avoiding destruction this Chinese Regiment would begin to lay the groundwork for training and advising the less mature Vietnamese forces. This one thousand man unit of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, PLA, would provide officers to the Vietnamese Advanced Infantry School and Cadre Training Center in North Vietnam with some 830 personnel trained by the year 1947. [16] Direct contact to include cable traffic and funding existed at this early point between the two communist movements.

    The strategic balance of power, in Asia and perhaps across the globe, was forever altered with the establishment of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) in October of 1949. After two years of relatively small scale guerrilla warfare dating from 1947 in Vietnam, the conflict would now expand and become much more deadly. With the arrival of Chinese communist troops along the Sino-Vietnamese border, the inevitable end was in sight for the French in Vietnam. As General Giap would write years later, “This great historic event, which altered events in Asia and throughout the world, exerted a considerable influence on the war of liberation of the Vietnamese people. Vietnam was no longer in the grip of enemy encirclement, and was henceforth geographically linked to the socialist bloc.” [17]

    Understandably enough Ho and the Viet Minh wasted no time in sending representatives northward to ask for support and assistance from the new communist government. Diplomatic recognition would be granted to the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) in January of 1950 by the PRC, the first nation to do so, followed soon by Stalin and the USSR also granting recognition. [18] Stalin, as the senior member of the communist firm, had informed Mao during meetings in Moscow soon afterwards that providing support and assistance to the Vietnamese struggle was a responsibility, and financial obligation, of the Chinese and the PRC. [19] This would not be an obligation that the Chairman would shirk from, far from it, he would honor Stalin’s wishes and support the Vietnamese communist cause for the next 25 years. Mao would see Vietnam as one of three areas of Western imperialism bordering on China that threatened the PRC, the other two areas being Taiwan and Korea. Additionally Mao sincerely believed in supporting “national liberation movements in colonial nations” and fancied himself as the champion of non-European peoples across the globe. [20]

    For the USSR and Stalin it was a low risk gamble. Its allies, the Chinese under Mao, and the Koreans and Vietnamese, could potentially tie down so much U.S. and Western strength in Asia that the global balance of power might shift, allowing the Soviets to strike westwards into Europe. Stalin discounted a Third World War and the west’s reaction since Germany and Japan were post-war shells, proclaiming “Should we fear this [world war]? In my opinion, we should not…If a war is inevitable, then let it be waged now, and not in a few years time.” [21] The die would be cast for warfare in Asia, and possibly elsewhere.

    Chinese military support, 1950-54

    In 1950 a classified U.S. Central Intelligence Report, CIA, stated that “The French position in Indochina is precarious,” somewhat of an understatement at the time. [22] The war had been going badly for the French and would only get worse. Ho would formally request military aid in the nature of equipment, advisors and training for the PAVN in April of 1950. Interestingly enough he would also request Chinese commanders at the regimental and battalion level to assist the Vietnamese Army, a request wisely denied by China, who would send advisors, not commanders to the North of Vietnam. [23] Such a request for Chinese commanders of PAVN units highlights the leadership problems present at the time in the Vietnamese forces, and the prevailing lack of confidence in Vietnamese commanders.

    Chinese Military Advisory Group

    After this request by Ho, the PRC in April of 1950 would begin forming the Chinese Military Advisory Group (CMAG) in order to provide military assistance to the Vietnamese forces fighting the French. General Wei Guoqing would lead the CMAG to North Vietnam, along with Senior General Chen Geng, the “scholar general,” and the PRC ambassador. The Second, Third and Fourth PLA field armies were directed to select experienced officers for service in Vietnam. Some 281 officers were selected with many having command experience. [24]

    In June, two days after the start of the Korean War, as the powerful North Korean Army crossed the 38th parallel, the Chairman spoke with his military advisors enroute to Vietnam, “It is President Ho chi Minh who has asked me for [your assistance], Who would have thought our revolution would succeed first? We should help them. It is called internationalism. You will help them to win the battles after you get to Vietnam.” [25] The advisors of the CMAG would do exactly that as the impact of these Chinese advisors and new weapons for the PAVN would soon be apparent in the war. Standard Chinese Maoist doctrine for revolutionary wars would be stressed and advisors were informed to avoid the “mentality of big-state chauvinism and not to display contempt for the Vietnamese.” [26] By 1950 the French had almost completely lost control of the border region with China with isolation garrisons in Cao Bang and Langson struggling to maintain a presence.

    The border region would be the first test of the new Chinese trained and equipped PAVN forces. General Chen Geng wrote in a report that “Some Vietnamese crack units are in high morale after receiving training and equipment in Yunnan and Guangxi, but Vietnamese cadres above the battalion level lack command experience in actual combat.” [27] This was an accurate statement concerning the PAVN but it was one problem about to be corrected.

    The CMAG would provide planning guidance, among other things, for the upcoming Border Campaigns of 1950. This campaign would begin in September with garrison after garrison falling to the Viet Minh in the north with tremendous losses for the isolated French garrisons near the Sino-Vietnamese border. Outnumbered 8 to 1 by the Vietnamese, the French would lose immense amounts of men to include 6,000 of 10,000 men in the north, and supplies to include 13 artillery pieces, 125 mortars and 450 trucks, in what some have described as the greatest defeat in French colonial history since the French and Indian War in North America. [28]

    Within 48 hours after these successful assaults on those isolated French outposts in the north, Chinese General Chen would hold what we would call today an after action review. Chen would brief Giap and other high ranking officers for four hours on the shortcomings of the Vietnamese Army. These short comings according to Chen would include not following the order for battle and attacking late, commanders not leading assaults from the front, poor communications, and cadres making false reports to superiors.[29] One wonders how such criticism was received but such reviews are vital for an army’s subsequent growth and improvement. To General Giap “The victory shows Mao’s military thought was very applicable to Vietnam.” [30]

    In addition to the training and planning guidance by the CMAG the logistical support from China began to increase steadily. The support provided was only 10-20 tons a month in 1951, increasing to 250 tons a month in 1952, further increasing to 600 tons a month in 1953 and 1,500 to 4,000 tons monthly during the last year of the war in 1954. [31] Additionally the Chinese transportation network to include roads and railways leading from China to Vietnam was improved also with some 1,000 trucks provided to the PAVN. This military aid provided by China enabled the PAVN to expand into a well armed and trained conventional force capable of defeating the French Army in large scale offensive operations. From a force in 1950 of 3 divisions the PAVN would expand two years later into a force of 7 divisions. All in all the Chinese military aid would arm a total of over 7 PAVN divisions. All this military support would not go unnoticed by the west, with the CIA, by March 1952, estimating that some 15,000 Chinese Communists were serving in Vietnam in various “technical, advisory and garrison capacities” with the PAVN against the French. [32] The Vietnamese Army now was a lethal force well equipped with small arms, machine guns, heavy 120mm mortars and 105mm howitzers, in addition to 20 and 40mm anti-aircraft guns. [33]

    Decisive battle of Dien Bien Phu

    By 1954 “Giap and the Chinese had built a tough, well-equipped, experienced, and dedicated army-a tool awaiting a great task and a master craftsman.” [34] The great task would be the decisive battle of Dien Bien Phu in western Vietnam near Laos, a battle that would end the First Vietnam War and the French presence in Indochina. Evidence suggests that the Vietnamese leadership did not see the opportunity provided by the French reoccupation of the valley until Chinese advisors alerted the Vietnamese, who initially wanted to move through Laos to invade South Vietnam, until convinced otherwise by General Wei Guoqing. [35] Additionally the CMAG would provide the Viet Mihn with a copy of the Navarre Plan, outlining French goals and objectives by the new French Commander in Vietnam.

    With the signing of the Korean Armistice in July 1953 China could and would shift additional resources to Vietnam. Specific support provided for the Dien Bien Phu campaign would include planning, logistics, engineering advisors, trucks, rocket and 75mm recoilless rifle battalions, and Soviet Katyusha Rocket Launchers or “Stalin Organs.” A combined headquarters was established as the Dien Bien Phu Campaign Command with General Giap as Commander in Chief with Chinese General Wei Guoqing as General Advisor. [36]

    Giap wrote years after the battle that “I felt there needed to be a meeting with the head of the team of friendly military experts who was also present. Generally speaking, relationships between us and friendly military experts ever since the Border Campaign had been excellent. Our friends had given us the benefit of their invaluable experience drawn from the revolutionary war in China and the anti-US war in Korea.” [37] It is interesting that in his account of the battle Giap makes no mention of Chinese material support or advice and planning assistance provided throughout this decisive last battle of the First Vietnam War. The Chinese advisors, such as General Wei Guoqing, are not identified or given any credit by Giap. Perhaps this is understandable given that one of the Chinese advisors would write later that “The greatest shortcoming of the Vietnamese Communists was their fear of letting other people know their weaknesses. They lacked Bolshevist self-criticism.” [38] The siege of Dien Bien Phu was to last 8 weeks with China providing 8,286 tons of supplies, including 4,620 tons of petroleum, 1,360 tons of ammunition, 46 tons of weapons and 1,700 tons of rice from supply depots 600 miles away. [39]

    Chinese advisors would be involved at all levels during the battle including digging in the all important Vietnamese artillery into shellproof dugouts, experience learned the hard way in the hills of Korea. [40] In effect the battle of Dien Bien Phu would be planned and assisted by Chinese advisors and fought with Chinese trained, equipped, supplied, transported and fed PAVN troops in a military soup to nuts manner. This support is rarely mentioned as a contributing factor to the Vietnamese victory in 1954 but should be acknowledged in analyzing the battle.

    Post-war support, 1955-63

    In 1954, with the ending of the First Vietnam War, and the Big Power Geneva conference, Vietnam would be split into two nations, North and South Vietnam. In the north Ho and the party’s attention would be focused; at least for several years, on consolidating power and economic development. The inevitable Communist collectivization and tribunals began with confiscations, arrests, localized uprisings and the execution of 15,000 Vietnamese before order could be restored by the PAVN. [41] The CMAG returns to China in September of 1955 having accomplished its mission, quite possibly one of the most successful advisory missions ever. [42]

    China would continue; however, to provide substantial levels of military aid for North Vietnam to the tune of $106 million from 1955 to 1963, effectively giving the North the resources needed to begin the insurgency in the South. [43] Thus, the North Vietnamese would form the National Liberation Front, NLF, in December of 1960 and the People’s Liberation Armed Forces, PLAF, the following year in 1961. Both the NLF and PLAF would be more commonly referred to as the Viet Cong, or Vietnamese Communists. [44]

    A campaign of terror and assassination against the South Vietnamese government would soon begin as thousands of officials would be killed or kidnapped by Viet Cong insurgents. [45] The United States would not sit idly by during this period but began an ambitious program of military aid to the fragile government of South Vietnam. The stage was set, for a second war in Vietnam which would be, once again, fought largely with Chinese military aid.

    Second Indochina War, 1964-75

    The catalyst for the Second Vietnam War would be the controversial Gulf of Tonkin incident in August of 1964 between the U.S. Navy and North Vietnamese torpedo boats in the China Sea. [46] Perhaps convinced by President Johnson’s own words that election year that he would not expand the limited war in Vietnam by bombing the North or “committing a good many American boys to fighting a war that I think ought to be fought by the boys of Asia,” the North continued its attacks. Now with U.S. aircraft striking targets in North Vietnam the liberation war paradigm changed. The incident greatly alarmed both the Vietnamese and Chinese Communist leadership and caused both to move closer together in responding to increased U.S. military actions in Southeast Asia. China took immediate steps to move forces south towards the border with Vietnam and sent MIG jet aircraft to Hanoi to bolster the DRV’s defensives. Perhaps due to several factors, to include possible concern over Chinese intervention, the United States would gradually adopt a strategy of attempting to limit the war in Vietnam, or gradualism, not applying the maximum force possible towards defeating an enemy on the battlefield. [47] To the north Chairman Mao remained concerned about the U.S., in his opinion “the most ferocious enemy of the people of the world.” [48] Thus, when senior North Vietnamese leaders, to include General Giap, formally requested Chinese military aid in April of 1965, the response would be swift and sure. The PRC President would tell the Vietnamese that the Chinese people and party were obligated to support the North and therefore “…we will do our best to provide you with whatever you need and whatever we have.” [49]

    Support requested and provided

    The most immediate need was for anti-aircraft artillery, units to counter the overwhelming American air power over North Vietnam. Ho would request Chinese AAA units during a meeting with Mao in May of 1965 and PLA forces would begin flowing into North Vietnam in July of 1965 to help defend the capital of Hanoi and the transportation network to include railroad lines and bridges.[50] This movement of troops from China was not lost on the U.S. as reported in a Top Secret CIA Special Report which identified seven major PLA units in North Vietnam to include the 67th AAA Division, and an estimated 25,000 to 45,000 Chinese combat troops total. [51] Recent Chinese sources indicate that this PLA AAA Division did indeed operate in the western area of North Vietnam. [52] In addition to AAA forces the PLA also provided missiles, artillery and logistics, railroad, engineer and mine sweeping forces. These forces would not only man AAA sites but would also build and repair Vietnamese infrastructure damaged or destroyed by U.S. airstrikes. [53] Such units would have quite a bit of repair work to do given that there would be more than a million tons of bombs dropped by U.S. aircraft upon North Vietnam from 1965 to 1972. [54] The Second Vietnam War would drag on for years as a sort of operational stalemate existed in the skies over North Vietnam. The U.S. could and did bomb the North at will, but the sheer numbers of Chinese forces, to include a total of 16 AAA divisions serving with a peak strength of 170,000 troops attained in 1967, would ensure that a high price would be paid by U.S. pilots with targets often rapidly rebuilt after destruction. [55] Chinese engineering and logistics units would perform impressive feats of construction throughout their stay in North Vietnam effectively keeping the transportation network functioning.

    The U.S. Air Campaign over North Vietnam would thus be somewhat of a lost cause, not significantly hurting the communist North enough for Ho and the senior leadership to contemplate ending the insurgency in South Vietnam. Chinese troops in North Vietnam would eventually withdraw, for the most part, by 1970 as the Sino-Vietnamese relationship began to sour over the Paris Peace Talks, and the USSR, among other things. In addition to the AAA umbrella over the North, China would also provide the sinews of modern war that would enable the North Vietnamese Army to undertake modern, large scale offensive operations against South Vietnam in both 1972 and 1975. Chinese trucks, tanks, Surface to air missiles, MIG jet aircraft, 130mm artillery pieces, 130mm mortars, and shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, were all moved south. The PAVN had enough first class material to launch a 20 division mechanized Easter Offensive in 1972 into South Vietnam, more divisions than ever commanded by General Patton in Europe during World War II, as one American Officer would point out. [56] The North Vietnamese would pay a terrible price for this gamble, thanks to U.S. airpower and advisors on the ground, losing an estimated 450 tanks and over 100,000 troops killed in action during the 1972 offensive. [57] China would, again, make up for much of the PAVN equipment lost, after the Paris Peace Treaty was signed, in 1973 and 1974, enabling the North Vietnamese to reconstitute units for another offensive in 1975. U.S. forces would not be present this time to help its South Vietnamese allies as 18 well trained and equipped PAVN divisions rolled to Saigon in April of 1975, effectively ending the Second Vietnam War. [58] Both Vietnam Wars, from 1946-1975, ended in victory for North Vietnam against the west, but without the massive amounts of military aid provided by the PRC, most likely the outcome would have been different. As with all what-if’s of history we shall never know.

    Analysis of support

    “So the more troops they send to Vietnam, the happier we will be, for we feel that we will have them in our power, we can have their blood…They will be close to China…in our grasp. They…will be our hostages.” [59]
    – – Chou En-lai speaking to Nasser, 1965

    So how does one analyze the considerable military support provided by the PRC for the DRV during the 25 year period from 1950-1975, encompassing both the First and Second Vietnam Wars? Was the military aid provided, to include equipment, advisors and planning assistance, decisive in both conflicts or would the North Vietnamese have prevailed without this Chinese military support? In retrospect it seems clear that the Chinese military support for the DRV would be crucial. This Chinese support would be, in many respects, timely, appropriate and helpful without doing the job that the North Vietnamese needed to do themselves; that is, fight and win on the ground in South Vietnam. The PRC would not conduct an intervention on the scale that it conducted in Korea, avoiding the international perception of acting in the traditional China/tributary state relationship with Vietnam, all the while providing the tools and assistance required to “tip the scales” in both conflicts against the West. The People’s Republic would be, in effect, the world’s largest unsinkable aircraft carrier and army base, a strategic advantage that Western nations thousands of miles removed from the fighting could not hope to match.

    As a biographer of Chairman Mao would remark “It was having China as a secure rear and supply depot that made it possible for the Vietnamese to fight for 25 years and beat first the French and then the Americans.” [60]

    The numbers would be impressive enough, of the military equipment and supplies provided by China. According to Qiang Zhai, during the period 1950-54, the PRC would provide enough weapons, 116,000 small arms and 4630 artillery pieces, to equip some 5 infantry divisions, one heavy engineering and artillery division, one direct fire anti-aircraft artillery regiment and one guards regiment. [61] This infusion of equipment for almost seven divisions worth of troops could not, and would not, be matched by the French. As one U.S. military officer would comment years later “The French politicians continued their irresolute, incoherent, and penny-pinching support of military operations in Indochina, while demanding ‘decisive solutions.’” [62] The numbers would be even more impressive in the Second Vietnam War. Chinese support provided would increase by a factor of ten with arms and equipment from uniforms to tanks to small arms on a yearly basis greater than the entire military aid provided in the early 1950’s against the French. [63] Additionally the Chinese anti-aircraft artillery troops, peaking at a total of 17 divisions and 150,000 men in 1967, would claim credit for downing 1,707 U.S. aircraft over North Vietnam. [64] These Chinese combat troops who were not to be used south of the 21st parallel in North Vietnam; however, the presence of these units secured the North’s rear, turning the nation into the most heavily defended area in the world, and allowing the DRV to use resources in South Vietnam and elsewhere that would have been devoted to homeland defense. [65] In effect the U.S. would not be able to open a second front over the skies of North Vietnam, as it had been able to so successfully over Germany in the Second World War, due to these Chinese divisions.

    But the mere presence of China to the north would also be a constant “sword of Damocles” hanging over the heads of Western and South Vietnamese nations. This nearness would also ensure that the ever present possibility of massive, full scale Chinese intervention would always be a factor that had to be considered by Western political and military leaders. Any plans for taking the fight to the North Vietnamese enemy on his home field by going north could not be seriously considered given the clear warnings by the PRC that it would intervene with massive force. The Chinese took great pains to communicate this willingness to fight on behalf of North Vietnam, if seriously threatened, to the United States, communicating warnings via various channels to include ambassadorial talks in Poland, third-party leaders such as the Pakistani and Tanzania Presidents and the British ambassador in Beijing. [66] In some respects this pledge of assistance was just as valuable as the tanks, trucks and guns provided by the PRC.

    Conclusion

    “Why have the Americans not made a fuss about the fact that more than 100,000 Chinese troops help you building the railways, roads and airports although they knew about it?” [67]
    – – Chairman Mao to Vietnamese Premier Dong, 1970

    In conclusion, as we can see from the considerable historical material outlined above, the military support provided by the People’s Republic of China, to include advisors, equipment and combat troops, was the decisive factor for the Communist Democratic Republic of Vietnam prevailing during 1949-1975 in both the First and Second Vietnam Wars. The small arms, mortars, ammunition, uniforms, tanks, artillery, radars, anti-aircraft guns, jet aircraft, trucks, and naval vessels were critical in the North Vietnamese struggle. However, what was even more critical and normally not acknowledged in the laundry list of war material is the psychological and strategic advantage provided by Communist China’s pledge to intervene in the advent of a United States invasion of North Vietnam, and communicating that pledge to the U.S. This strategic advantage in effect cannot be overstated.

    As General Westmoreland’s former G-2, or Intelligence Officer would write after the Vietnam Wars “With[out] a friendly China located adjacent to North Vietnam, there would have been little chance for a Vietnamese victory against the French, and later against the Americans and South Vietnamese.” [68] It is rather ironic that most professional historians tend to downplay or ignore China’s decisive role in North Vietnam’s victory while the military and intelligence communities, U.S. at least, are much more willing to acknowledge this fact. Perhaps this is understandable since if one acknowledges the role played by China it calls into question such Vietnam myths as the “poorly armed guerrilla” and the “military genius” of Giap, among other issues. Historians such as Xiaoming Zhang and Qiang Zhai are challenging the paradigm of accepted Vietnam history and in doing so are performing a great service.

    “Thus the highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy plans;” according to the learned military theorist Sun-Tzu in the Art of War. [69] In respects this is exactly what the North Vietnamese, and Chinese did in both Vietnam Wars: they successfully attacked the Western powers war plans. The considerable support for the DRV by the PRC, to include a promise to intervene with massive numbers of troops in the event of an invasion of North Vietnam, effectively eliminated this course of action, and perhaps others, as potential war winning options for the West. Thus, with the support of China, on a strategic level of war the DRV was able to remain upon the offensive throughout the war, maintaining the initiative and finally achieving victory as Saigon fell in April of 1975.

    * * *

    [1]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, Mao: The Unknown Story, (New York, NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005), 482.

    [2]. Qiang Zhai, “Transplanting the Chinese Model: Chinese Military Advisers and the First Vietnam War, 1950-1954,” The Journal of Military History, Vol. 57, No. 4, October 1993.

    [3]. Bruce A. Elleman, Modern Chinese Warfare, 1795-1989, (New York, NY: Routledge, 2001), 285.

    [4]. Micheal Clodfelter, Vietnam in Military Statistics, A History of the Indochina Wars, 1772-1991, (Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Co, Inc., 1995), 7-12.

    [5]. Yevgeny Kobelev, Ho Chi Minh, (Hanoi, Vietnam: The Gioi Publishers, 1999), 57-58.

    [6]. Bernard B. Fall, Last Reflections on a War, (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1967), 72.

    [7]. Xiaobing Li, A History of the Modern Chinese Army, (Lexington, KY: The University Press of Kentucky, 2007), 35.

    [8]. Ibid, 43.

    [9]. Fall, 109-111.

    [10]. Qiang Zhai, 695.

    [11]. Li, 207.

    [12]. Qiang Zhai, China and the Vietnam Wars, 1950-1975, (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2000), 13.

    [13]. Phillip B. Davidson, Lieutenant General USA, Ret., Vietnam at War, The History 1946-1975. (Novato, CA: Presidio Press, 1988), 39-40.

    [14]. Ibid, 41-48.

    [15]. Qiang Zhai, Book, 11.

    [16]. Ibid, 11-12.

    [17]. Davidson, 63.

    [18]. Qiang Zhai, 693.

    [19]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, 356-357.

    [20]. Qiang Zhai, 20-22.

    [21]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, 359.

    [22]. National Intelligence Estimate-5, Indochina: Current Situation and Probable Developments, CIA Report, 29 December 1950, Freedom of Information Act, accessed on line, http://www.foia.cia.gov, June/July 2008.

    [23]. Qiang Zhai, 18-19.

    [24]. Li, 208-209.

    [25]. Xiaobing Li, 209.

    [26]. Qiang Zhai, 18-25.

    [27]. Qiang Zhai, Book, 28.

    [28]. Davidson, 74-82.

    [29]. Qiang Zhai, 29-31.

    [30]. Qiang Zhai, 33.

    [31]. Clodfelter, 18-19.

    [32]. National Intelligence Estimate-35/1, Indochina: Probable Developments in Indochina through Mid-1952, CIA Report, 3 March 1952, Freedom of Information Act, accessed on line, http://www.foia.cia.gov, 30 June 2008.

    [33]. Davidson, 123.

    [34]. Ibid, 160.

    [35]. Qiang Zhai, 46.

    [36]. Ibid.

    [37]. General Vo Nguyen Giap, Dien Bien Phu, (Hanoi, Vietnam, The Gioi Publishers, 1994), 23.

    [38]. Qiang Zhai, Book, 64.

    [39]. Clodfelter, 28.

    [40]. Davidson, 204-205.

    [41]. Clodfelter, 34-35.

    [42]. Li, 215.

    [43]. Ibid.

    [44]. Ibid, 216.

    [45]. Clodfelter, 39-40.

    [46]. Davidson, 284-289.

    [47]. Ibid, 303-304.

    [48]. Qiang Zhai, Book, 140.

    [49]. Li, 217.

    [50]. Ibid.

    [51]. Special Report, Status of Soviet and Chinese Military Aid to North Vietnam, CIA Report, 03 September 1965, and Intelligence Memorandum, Chinese Communist Forces in North Vietnam, CIA Report, 29 September 1966, Freedom of Information Act, accessed on line, http://www.foia.cia.gov, 30 June 2008.

    [52]. Li, 218.

    [53]. Ibid, 217-218.

    [54]. Clodfelter, 225.

    [55]. Li, 217-219.

    [56]. Davidson, 605.

    [57]. Ibid, 634.

    [58]. Ibid, 707.

    [59]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, 482.

    [60]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, 357.

    [61]. Qiang Zhai, 715.

    [62]. Davidson, 47.

    [64]. Li, 217-219 and Xiaoming Zhang, 759.

    [65]. Xiaoming Zhang, 757.

    [66]. Qiang Zhai, 138-139.

    [67]. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, 578.

    [68]. Davidson, 32.

    [69]. Ralph D. Sawyer, The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China, Sun-tzu’s Art of War, (New York, NY: Basic Books, 2007), 161.

    * * *

    Copyright © 2008 Bob Seals.

    Written by Bob Seals. If you have questions or comments on this article, please contact Bob Seals at:
    [email protected].

    About the author:
    Bob Seals is a retired Army Special Forces officer with service in the 1st and 3rd Special Forces Group, 1st Special Warfare Training Group, SF Command, Security Assistance Training Management Organization, and Special Operations Command-Korea. He is working as an Operations Analyst for General Dynamics Information Technology at the Army Special Operations Digital Training Center, US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School, Fort Bragg, NC.

    Published online: 09/23/2008.

    * Views expressed by contributors are their own and do not necessarily represent those of MHO.

  346. @Smith

    But China did not commit the same mistake twice. It helped turn Kampuchea into Vietnam’s OWN “Vietnam”!!!

  347. denk says:
    @Smith

    I repeat my education for the shithead RNS here cuz you parrots its nonsense.

    BTW,
    Even tho Im not an expurt like you on Chinese history, it seems that the Tang emperor sent two expedition forces to save Korea from invading jps hordes.

    PS
    whiteys call VN gooks, I dont.
    Why do you follow whitey’, calling Chinese chinks ?
    Why smith, are you a wot aspiring to be white ?

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  348. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    Contrast this with the large “reservations” into which the North American Native peoples were herded, and in which many of their descendants remain.

    OUtta sight, outta mind…

    Native Americans rotting in reservations, drinking themselves to death….if they can afford it.

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/5/4/1336171406406/US-should-return-stolen-l-008.jpg?w=1200&h=630&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=crop&bm=normal&ba=bottom%2Cleft&blend64=aHR0cHM6Ly91cGxvYWRzLmd1aW0uY28udWsvMjAxNi8wNS8yNS9vdmVybGF5LWxvZ28tMTIwMC05MF9vcHQucG5n&s=5f656967ee7926e01b0027e697135bb4

    That shithead RNS and its ilks, JOhn perfidious Derby are the last persons on earth to get to lecture Hans on imperialism.

  349. @denk

    [Why smith, are you a wot aspiring to be white ?]
    .
    These people can never be white. Edward Said called such people “whiteman’s niggers”. They wholehearted enslave themselves mentally to the whities supremacists and believe that doing so can make them superior the the Chinese who don’t! They would then hate the Chinese for not feeling inferior to them as they do to the whites. Given below is my exchange with one such Burmese guy on the Economist forum some years ago.
    .
    Sentinelese (who also used the user-name “Tocharian”) below was a typical example and the Devil gave his reply to this Burmese who felt his Burmese pride was UNJUSTLY wounded by the Chinese because China wanted to match the advanced Western societies (“historic struggle” against the West ) instead of merely wanting to catch up with Burma (one of those ‘other countries in this world and they have their pride too’):
    .
    {Devils Advocate_1 in reply to Sentinelese Jun 6th 2014 6:07 GMT
    [Sentinelese in reply to gocanucks 1 hour 22 mins ago
    .
    Most Chinese, even if they live in the West, are very defensive and sensitive about criticism of their “motherland”. Loyalty to the “Han Civilization” seems to override even the loyalty to the country where they hold their citizenship. They also typically assume that all other non-Western countries and non-white people would automatically be pro-Chinese and anti-US/UK. Why?
    .
    China believes it is engaging in a “historic struggle” against the West for global dominance (and to correct the past). The rest of Asia, Africa and South America is of course, just populated by “underdeveloped and uncultured barbarians” but useful for natural resources and to be bullied. At the same time Chinese want to “liked”, even admired by the people in the neighbourhood that they treat as uncivilised and weak. Hypocrisy combined with such fervour and righteousness is scary, especially coming from such a large nation. Perhaps they should introduce democratic reforms in their own country first (give up one-party rule) before they think about becoming a superpower. It’s not just China vs USA. There are other countries in this world and they have their pride too.]
    .
    Version 2.0:
    .
    Most contented members of “an inferior race” like Toc and Bis, even if they live in the West, are very aggressive in accusing the Chinese who do not accept the “inferior race” status. Loyalty to their “superior European race masters” seems to override the very basic human quality called JUSTICE. They also typically assume that the Chinese would automatically take an inferior position to the honourary whites like the Japanese, the Burmese, etc. Why?
    .
    Toc believes he has to engage in an “epic historic struggle” against the Chinese in order to maintain what he sees as the correct order of human relations in the world, which is that the whites are on the very top of the human race, the honourary whites, like the Nipponese, Burmese following below, then the Chinese and other yellow people, and with the dark-skin Rohingyas, Africans, at the very bottom– For him, that structure must hold regardless of how much or how little each of all these different peoples put into improving their own lives. But the Chinese have committed the unforgivable sin of surpassing the Burmese in their achievements. Now, they even want to match Toc’s “superior European race masters”– Something the Burmese NEVER even dare to dream about. That is an UNBEARABLE insult to Burmese dignity. The Chinese are only supposed to stay below the level of the Burmese and to hope, in vain, to catch up with Burmese in accomplishments!!! It is therefore necessary for Toc to double, re-double, and re-double to the nth power, his effort to conduct “an epic historic struggle” on the The Economist forums to FORBID the Chinese from doing better than the Burmese– Until the Chinese see reason and voluntarily reduce their accomplishments to no more than half of what the Burmese can manage.
    .
    The rest of Asia, Africa and South America is of course, just populated by “underdeveloped and uncultured barbarians” like the Rohingyas, but they are useful when the racist Burmese like Toc feel the need to shoot someone for sport. At the same time Burmese want to be “liked”, even hugged by the people in the neighborhood that they treat as subhumans. (http://www.e-ir.info/2012/09/12/growing-up-a-proud-racist-in-burma/). Hypocrisy combined with such fervour and righteousness is scary, especially coming from such people who racially worship those “superior European race masters”, who have enslaved the entire non-white world for centuries.
    .
    Perhaps they should introduce foreign Y-chromosomes all over their country first (and give up the racist Burmese Y-chromosome) before they think about becoming a normal member of a “non-inferior race”. It’s not just the Chinese. All the people in this world must earn their pride instead of thinking they they could automatically acquire it by submitting themselves to their “superior European race masters”.}
    .
    Devil’s

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Malla
  350. denk says:

    As the saying goes….
    Being a fukus poodle means ,
    Uncle sham calls the shot, you shoot your own foot.

    India follows US and Oz steps to ban Chinese products resulted in many infrastructure proj getting stuck.

    Exhibit A
    Made in China GIant TBM tunnel boring machine at metro3 site waiting to be assembled, but engineers from the Chinese manufacturer aint allowed to come into India. !

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/tensions-with-china-covid-hit-mumbai-coastal-tunnel-work/articleshow/77968880.cms

  351. denk says:
    @Deep Thought

    Have you heard of the Stockholm syndrome ?
    Its about victim of rapist ended up loving her tormentor.

    Indians, VN, Jp seem to be suffering from such affliction, at odds with their neighbors while swooning over to far away white mentors.

    As for the Economists, sobs declared me persona non grata bcos [[[they]]] didnt like the way I was roasting some Indian jingoists at their forum.

    Fucking hypocrites !

    hehehe

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Deep Thought
  352. antibeast says:
    @denk

    Have you heard of the Stockholm syndrome ? It’s about victim of rapist ended up loving her tormentor.

    It’s called colonial mentality.

    Indians, VN, JP seem to be suffering from such affliction, at odds with their neighbors while swooning over to far away white mentors.

    Indians are the worst especially the English-speaking, Western-educated ones who tend to suffer from colonial mentality which is magnified by their high-caste racism against their own lower-caste kind.

    Vietnamese less so especially in the North where Chinese influence is more dominant compared to the South where French influence is more pronounced.

    Japanese are the least as they have maintained their East Asian cultural identity which they adopted from Classical Chinese Civilization.

    As for White Europeans, the British, French, Germans and Italians can rightfully claim to have created their own White Western Culture as part of White Christian Civilization but only the Italians can lay claim as the natural heir to the ancient Greco-Roman-Christian Civilization of the Classical West. All other Western cultures are derivatives of the ancient Greco-Roman-Christian Civilization, including the British, French and German variants. Anglo-American culture is a second-hand derivative of English WASP culture which is autochthonous to England but not to America.

    China is in a class of its own — a Nation-State with more than 2,200 years of political history and a Civilization with more than 5,000 years of cultural history — a feat matched only by a few such as Egypt, Iran, Russia, India, etc. There is no basis for comparison between China and the USA because the cultural identity of the USA is still a work-in-progress. Nobody knows what the USA would be like in the future but one thing is sure: the USA ain’t European no more.

  353. @denk

    Yes, I have read about this Stockholm syndrome. 😉

  354. Stan says:
    @ivan

    Why are you giving Obongo a pass?

  355. denk says:
    @antibeast

    When India got its independence,
    NOt only were the NE MOngoloid kingdoms denied their own freedom, Delhi went on a rampage, gobbling up even those Naga territories left unmolested by the Brits.

    HMDL’S birth place Tawang was annexed in 1951, became today’s Arunacha Pradesh.

    Followed by Sikkim in 1975

    Indians really learned well , even out did their Brit mentors.
    ———————————-
    May be Smith is South VN ? 😉

    ——————————————
    iN international polling,
    Jps score over 60% of sinophobes.
    Whereas a similarly high % have fav view of USA.
    GO figure 🙁

    As for USA, its best to break it up,
    it’d make for a safer planet.

  356. @trickster

    I couldn’t help but laugh hard at your comment. You are like a parody… You must be a professional comedian. Ok – Got ya…

  357. @Deep Thought

    “Smith” is a nutcase… He’s on every thread doing nothing of real historical facts but using ethnic slurs against Chinese. But yeah – funny thing is even the US estimates there were about 300K PRC soldiers in North Vietnam – doing what you said – bolstering them so the Viets could slip into the South. Which along with Korea – is why Americans have a deep hatred of Chinese… Because China “spoiled” their plans in both Korea and Vietnam.

    • Replies: @TSS
    , @antibeast
  358. @Brian Damage

    Oh no question…. I was simply responding in kind regarding media narratives. India is not even close to China – even though they were about the same level in 1980. Indian media is delusional – but people are sheep and will follow.

  359. TSS says:
    @showmethereal

    I like Smith. He’s toxic but can be painfully honest. He’s a decent foil to the fervent chinese nationalists here. Still, it’s entertaining to read from a vietnamese not named Linh Dinh. In the past I enjoyed seeing some new “white nationalist” users pop up with Smith’s exact same writing style and racial diatribes. Very entertaining.

    • LOL: showmethereal
  360. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    Yes, you’re right about ‘Smith’ being a nutcase. He thinks China conspired with the USA to divide Korea during the Korean War and blames China for planning to do the same to Vietnam during the Vietnam War. For some reason, he can’t bear to admit that the Commie Chinaman Chinks fought alongside the North Koreans and helped the North Vietnamese in their wars against the USA. Instead, he conjures up a delusional fantasy of a Chinese conspiracy as the motive for Chinese intervention in the Korean War and Chinese support in the Vietnam War.

    Contrary to Western propaganda, the Chinese have evinced no desire whatsoever to invade and colonize Southeast Asia. When FDR reportedly offered French Indochina to Chiang Kai-Shek after the Chinese Nationalist Army defeated the Imperial Japanese Army in Burma, Chiang replied: “Under no circumstances!” Admiral Zheng Ho’s ships were three times the size of the Spanish ships that sailed to and plundered the New World but the Chinese explorers left the natives of Asia and Africa with gifts of friendship. During the expansionist period of the Chinese Empire, the Han Dynasty invaded the Tarim Basin and annexed the Indo-European Kingdoms there but left them to their ways and even adopted Buddhism from the Indo-Europeeans who were finally vanquished by Muslim invaders after the Chinese lost control of the Xinjiang region during subsequent periods of Chinese disunity.

    In Southeast Asia, the Dai Viets developed their fearsome and hated reputation as the most aggressive imperialists in the region, invading and annexing the Champa Kingdom and fighting lots of wars against their Khmer and Thai neighbors who would in turn seek support from the Chinese. Even the Sultanate of Sulu which lays claim to the Spratly Islands next to Palawan in the Philippines sought political protection from the Chinese against the Dai Viets.

    ‘Smith’ shows up every now and then and spews his anti-Chinese rants just because Dai Viet used to be a former Chinese colony which he thinks proves Chinese complicity in French colonialism and US imperialism in Vietnam.

    • Agree: denk, Patagonia Man
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  361. Smith says:
    @antibeast

    Gonna continue to correct you here:

    The Tet Offensive, while a tactical failure, was a strategical success because it proves that the american forces are too overstretched and undermanned to fight against the NVA, while the ARVN relies too much on american forces. Notice how while the americans re-take some territories, most were not re-taken.

    The NVA suffers losses that can be replaced and they know that the America is the lynchpin that holds South Vietnam together, and they were right, after Tet Offensive, the americans command decided to cut the loss, with Rolling Thunder as the last goodbye and Paris Agreement as the definite signature that the americans have accepted their lost.

    Compare this with the Korean, to my knowledge, in the first counter-offensive against North Korea, MacArthur made a daring landing in Incheon and cut the KPA’s line, essentially cutting them in half, that’s how they manage to drive the KPA back straight to North Korea.

    Meanwhile, contrast this with the chinese counter-offensive, the americans did no such dramatic maneuver, the chinese just take Seoul, and then leave the Americans time to re-organize (!!!) for them to re-take Seoul, which is exactly maintaining the status quo.

    It stinks to high heaven that there’s cooperation between two powers there.

    And bullshit, NVA has never stopped attacking South Vietnam as both an army and a guerilla force (the Vietcong is deeply connected to the NVA), because Ho Chi Minh knew aggression was the key and the leaders of South Vietnam leadership were coward puppets while the americans are war-weary. Meanwhile, the KPA came to ask the chinks to help them beat South Korea again in the 70s-80s and got told to fuck off lol, this is why you cannot rely on outside forces for your own country matter.

    Oh and about the later comments.

    You repeat the same myth about chinks’s lack of aggression i.e. Zheng He’s fleet.

    I will simply repeat these here:
    1. The size of Zheng He’s ships are not historically proven, only recorded.

    2. The Ming invaded Vietnam, and were beaten, and thus they cannot grab Vietnam. This proves the chink intention, not their capacity.

    3. Champa nowadays is a part of Vietnam, just like Dali and West Xia are now part of China, except we care more about the culture of Cham and respect their artifacts, when’s the last time you hear about Dali and the tangut?

    @ Deep Thought
    Jeez, I didn’t know Pol Pot still rules Kampuchea.

    Vietnam kicked both Pol Pot ass in the South, and the chinks in the North, that’s the strength of united Vietnam.

    @ denk
    Really, you INVADE Korea to save it to from Japan? Is that really an excuse? The japs can use the same excuse against you.

    Also, it’s not “white” to call you a chink, each asian country has a slur for other countries, it’s normal to treat foreigners that way. But it’s white to pretend superiority that you don’t have, such as muh superior civilization, muh barbarian savages. Stop the bullshit.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @antibeast
  362. denk says:
    @Smith

    For someone who call himself smith, your
    English sucks big time,

    I say during the Tang , China helped Korea beating off Jp invasion.

    it’s not “white” to call you a chink, each asian country has a slur for other countries

    YOur English really sucks.
    chinks, japs, kooks, gooks, ragheads, niggers are all whitey slurs on the others, those Untermensch.

    A ‘VN’ who isnt LInh or Truong but smith,
    who adopts whitey slurs on fellow Asians reeks of a wot who aspires to be white.

    HOpe this helps.

  363. @denk

    Hey danky (stupid, crazy, hateful),

    You act so danky.

    Yours untruly,

    The Dirty Yellow Rats Hater

    P. S. Thank Pepe Escobar for giving you a platform to promote hatred.

    • Troll: d dan
  364. antibeast says:
    @Smith

    The Tet Offensive, while a tactical failure, was a strategical success because it proves that the american forces are too overstretched and undermanned to fight against the NVA, while the ARVN relies too much on american forces. Notice how while the americans re-take some territories, most were not re-taken.

    LOL! The Tet Offensive proved that the North Vietnamese troops were overstretched and ill-equipped to defeat the Americans and occupy South Vietnam while failing to capture Saigon! Yet you’re complaining why the Chinese PVA failed to drive the Americans out of South Korea after capturing Seoul during the Third Offensive? Without air cover, the Chinese suffered from lack of food, clothing and ammo due to their supply-lines getting bombed by the Americans. That’s why Peng Dehuai opposed the Third Offensive to push through the 38th parallel but Mao agreed with Kim Il Sung who insisted that the Chinese PVA capture Seoul and push the Americans out of South Korea. After the Third Offensive, China could have accepted the US offer of a UN ceasefire and negotiate for an armistice agreement demarcating the DMZ along the 38th parallel while gradually withdrawing Chinese PVA troops from Seoul and back to North Korea. But Mao’s ego got the better of him as his reputation was now on the line. So he ordered the last and final Fourth Offensive wherein the Americans relied on their air superiority to bomb Chinese positions in South Korea as well as Chinese supply-lines in North Korea which effectively pushed the overstretched and ill-equipped Chinese PVA, sustaining heavy casualties, out of South Korea and back behind the 38th parallel. The stalemate lasted for two more years until the armistice was signed.

    Here’s a video of the Korean War:

    Given the massive superiority of the US military in terms of weapons, materials, logistics, air cover, etc., it is quite amazing how the Chinese PVA pushed the Americans out of North Korea, crossing the 38th parallel and captured Seoul. If China had accepted the US ceasefire offer after the Third Offensive, then all the death and destruction that followed could have been avoided. As it were, Kim Il-Sung was too cocky about the prospects of a successful North Korean invasion of South Korea which failed spectacularly. To satiate his ego, the Chinese PVA had to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers for another attempt to evict the Americans out of South Korea where most Chinese casualties were inflicted by superior American air cover.

    • Replies: @Smith
  365. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Indians are the worst especially the English-speaking, Western-educated ones who tend to suffer from colonial mentality which is magnified by their high-caste racism against their own lower-caste kind.

    This is total misunderstanding of Indian history. It were English educated Westernised Indians who spearheaded the early anti-British movement. It were the British who gave rights to the lower castes and many lower caste leaders like Ambedkar, Periyar and Phule supported the British Raj and wanted it to stay as insurance against brahmanical forces. Many Indians looked to the British as protectors of the weak from the strong, including Indian Muslims after 1900.

    From post 214 on this page
    “As the Morning Post observed : ” The worst of the Indian extremists come from the English-educated stratum. The two most conspicuous outrage plotters, Hardayal and Krishnavarma, both took English University honours.” The bomb thrown at Lord Hardinge in Delhi in December 1912 was the outcome of this teaching.””

    Nearly all Indian Independence leaders were English educated and many even studied in England. They include Nehru, Gandhi, Patel, Jinnah (father of Pakistan), even Bose was English educated.

    And this is not surprising. Lord Macualay is the one who introduced English education in India, he is hated a lot by the far-right conservative brahmanical Hindutvas, they hatefully call, English educated westernised Indians, “Macaulay Putras” or “Macualay’s Children”
    But to Macaulay in 1833, the issue was between stagnation and progress, between the mentality of despotism and that of liberty; and he could not hesitate between them. England should bestow the most precious treasure of her heritage, the living conscious spirit of her civilization, upon India. He was not indifferent to the possibility that this might lead India to demand political freedom. If it did, that would be “the proudest day in English history.” That was what this great Whig historian had declared to the House of Commons not two years since, and apparently so many of his compatriots were of the same mind that few saw anything startling in such a prophecy.

    At 9:05

    At 9:04
    Hindi: “Angrez ka virod inhone (Brahmins) tab kiya, jab angrezo ne SC, ST, OBC minority ke logon ko (opressed backward caste), school khola, adhikar dena shuru kiya tha”
    English translation: The Brahmins started opposing the British when the British started schools for oppressed backward caste people (SC, ST, OBC, minorities) and started giving them political rights.

    Hindi: “Isliye Phule ne kaha tha ki agar dharti par koi Bhagwan hai to wo angrez hai.”
    English translation: That is why Phule said “If there is God on Earth it is the English/British”.

    Who is this Phule?
    From
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirao_Phule
    Jyotirao Govindrao Phule (11 April 1827 – 28 November 1890) was an Indian social activist, thinker, anti-caste social reformer and writer from Maharashtra. His work extended to many fields, including eradication of untouchability and the caste system, and women’s emancipation. He is mostly known for his efforts in educating women and lower caste people. He and his wife, Savitribai Phule, were pioneers of women education in India. Phule started his first school for girls in 1848 in Pune at Tatyasaheb Bhide’s residence or Bhidewada.[1] On 24 September 1873, he, along with his followers, formed the Satyashodhak Samaj (Society of TruthSeekers) to attain equal rights for people from lower castes. People from all religions and castes could become a part of this association which worked for the upliftment of the oppressed classes. Phule is regarded as an important figure in the social reform movement in Maharashtra. (Western India)

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  366. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    I really doubt Smith wants to be White. Just because he has a name like Smith means nothing. He seems like a Vietnamese Nationalist.

  367. Malla says:
    @Deep Thought

    I hope somehow the distrust could be dispelled so that India, China, Pakistan, etc could all cooperate and benefit from further economic development together.

    Oh please, in between India and China, it is China which is mostly innocent. Our idiot Indian Govt in 1962 lied to us about China and idiots here believe “China wants to keep uz down”. Until our Govt comes out in the open and tells us the truth about 1962, nothing will happen. But our Govt would lose massive face in doing so. That is where lies leads you at the end, to radioactive shitting in radioactive fields.
    When our soldiers surrendered to the PLA in 1962, they were treated very well, well fed and medical care taken care off, in those days China itself was an impoverished nation. Guess what, our Govt prevented these facts to be known to our people.

    Anyways, it is still possible for China and India to work together. Making Pakistan and India to work together is a much much more difficult proposition.

    • Thanks: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Deep Thought
    , @Punju
  368. @Malla

    [Anyways, it is still possible for China and India to work together. ]
    .
    I hope you are right.
    .
    Who was right and who was wrong in 1962 is no longer important. The best thing that could happen is for India and China to arrive at a permanent solution to the border problem.
    .
    Same wish for India vs Pakistan– China wants to maintain good relations with both countries so that economic development that can benefit all can be pushed forward without hindrance.

    • Thanks: Malla
  369. Punju says:
    @Malla

    Malla, is it possible for you to point to some sources supporting your statement regarding Indian lies about 62 war?

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  370. @Malla

    A cynic could say that it’s just standard Brit “divide and rule” practice turning low caste against the high caste, much as they did with different tribes elsewhere. Or trying to weaken the previous rulers (the Brahmin) as colonialists would do to former rulers they replaced.

    • Replies: @Malla
  371. Vidi says:
    @Punju

    Malla, is it possible for you to point to some sources supporting your statement regarding Indian lies about 62 war?

    I’m not Malla, but I happen to have a link to an article in the India Times that admits Nehru started the 1962 war by unilaterally claiming territory and then adopting a “forward policy” to grab that territory (link to “It wasn’t China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war: Australian journalist Neville Maxwell”).

    The article links to a report by Henderson Brooks and Bhagat on the 1962 war. The authors were Lieutenant-General T.B. Henderson Brooks and Brigadier Premindra Singh Bhagat, commandant of the Indian Military Academy at the time. I’m not exactly sure of the report’s date, but the content clearly indicates that it written not long after the war ended.

    From the Henderson Brooks / Bhagat report, page 11: “Reconnaissance with a view to establishing a post was ordered vide Army Headquarters letter No 15458/1/H/TS/M03 of 9 November 1961 …. The first Chinese reaction was on 22 April, 1962”.

    Note that China didn’t respond militarily for six months, no doubt using the time to protest India’s “probe” and asking Nehru to withdraw — which he clearly refused to do. Then China counter-attacked — and that counter-attack is probably what India has been lying about for decades. The fiction is that China started the war, when the truth is that China was responding to India’s invasion, after warning India for half a year.

  372. Panju says:
    @Vidi

    Vidi, thank you so much.

    Many years back I had seen some links from South China Morning Post also discussing origins of 62 war with similar conclusions. On Indian side, the execution was particularly poor resulting in lingering shame to this day. Unfortunately, I did not save all the links.

    Let’s hope that common sense prevails this time. Rather than ‘national honor’ and ‘strategic interests’, leaders, on both sides, focus on the needs of common man.

    Regards.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  373. Smith says:
    @antibeast

    For some reasons my posts keep not getting posted.

    Anyway, we are repeating ourselves now, but my point remains that Tet Offensive effectively brought an end to the military dominance of the US troops in the South, no longer they thought they can effectively defend South Vietnam, hence their withdrawal after Rolling Thunder.

    Regarding the Korean war, it sounds all amazing for the chinese until you realize the North Korea alone has already pushed the korean AND american to Busan before reinforcement came.

    It seems Mao is willing to commit to 200K death just to put up the status quo, but never more to at least hold Seoul (can you imagine if South Korea now doesn’t have Seoul), which is where my suspicions come in.

    We can argue for this again and again, but truth remains that North Korea remains disunited because it relies too much on chinese commitment (after the 50s) while Vietnam was more independent in our strategy.

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @antibeast
  374. Vidi says:
    @Panju

    Vidi, thank you so much.

    You’re welcome.

    Let’s hope that common sense prevails this time. Rather than ‘national honor’ and ‘strategic interests’, leaders, on both sides, focus on the needs of common man.

    Indeed. More on India’s locust problem:

    Link: India hit with worst locust invasion in almost 30 years

    As India continues its battle with the coronavirus pandemic a new kind of invasion is threatening to destroy vital crops and vegetation — the worst locust swarm the country has seen in almost 30 years.

    Waves of desert locusts — millions strong and stretching up to 7 kilometers (4 miles) long — crossed into India’s western state of Rajasthan from neighboring Pakistan in early May and swarms have since pushed into five different states in search of food.

    The desert locust is the most destructive of all locust species because of its speed and ability to multiply rapidly, according to the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations. Adult locusts can fly up to 150 kilometers (93 miles) a day and eat their own body weight — equal to 2 grams — worth of fresh vegetation in that period.

    Link: New Delhi on high alert after desert locusts swarm through neighboring Gurgaon

    A swarm of desert locusts clouded the skies in the Indian city of Gurgaon on Saturday, prompting the government of the Indian capital New Delhi to issue an advisory informing officials to remain on high alert.

    The locust crisis alone should be far more concerning than some fistfights at a remote border.

  375. Mefobills says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I was part of the first company to go to China and teach Chinese engineers.

    You are out of your mind if you don’t think that China gratefully absorbed our Patrimony, and also worked by hook and crook.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  376. Mefobills says:
    @Ghan-buri-Ghan

    Thus, he cannot *cope* with China doing so much better than white people

    If you read my comment history, I am pro-China.

    I rate your response a fail, and an oblique ad-hominem.

    Any civilization needs a dominant ethnic for its hierarchy. The other “groups” have to norm to the dominant hierarchy.

    The U.S. was formed as a white European civilization.

    You don’t hear me making calls to overturn China and make it European, or anything but Chinese.

    Also, economics is political-economics. They are flip sides of the same coin.

  377. antibeast says:
    @Smith

    Your argument is self-contradictory for the following reasons:

    1). The Tet Offensive didn’t achieve its military objectives because it failed to expel the US military from South Vietnam with the NVA/VC suffering heavily;
    2). The political failure of the US government led to the withdrawal of the US military from South Vietnam;
    3). That means US politics was the reason behind the US military withdrawal not the military failure of the Tet Offensive which was used as negative propaganda by the anti-Vietnam War protest movement in the USA.

    Yet you’re claiming credit for the alleged military success(?) of the North Vietnamese Army which failed miserably during the Tet Offensive to capture any of the towns and cities attacked including Saigon. At the same time, you’re discrediting the three successive military victories of the Chinese PVA led by Peng Dehuai against MacArthur’s counter-offensive which succeeded not only in driving the US military out of North Korea but also captured Seoul, which led to the most humiliating defeat of the US army in its history, eventually ending the military career of MacArthur who was fired by Truman for insubordination.

    That the Korean War ended where it began was not the fault of the Chinese PVA but of both Kim Il-Sung and Stalin who foolishly started the Korean War without adequately preparing for the US military intervention. So what if the North Korean KPA succeeded in capturing Seoul and driving the Americans all the way to Busan? MacArthur landed his troops in Incheon and recaptured Seoul without much resistance. The North Korean KPA troops in Busan and Seoul were completely annihilated thereafter, the same fate that awaited the Chinese PVA during the fourth and final offensive which Mao undertook — upon the insistence of both Kim Il-Sung and Stalin but opposed by Peng Dehuai — to expel the US military from South Korea after capturing Seoul the second time. That’s when the US military resorted to bombing Seoul which forced the Chinese PVA to withdraw from Seoul and retreat back to North Korea, suffering most of its heaviest losses during this time.

    Let’s give credit where credit is due: the Tet Offensive was a military failure compared to Peng Dehaui’s military victories while the Vietnam War was a political success compared to the political failure of the Korean War.

    Korea was already a divided nation BEFORE the Chinese Communists won against the Chinese Nationalists during the Chinese Civil War. Why are you blaming the Chinese Communists who had nothing to do with the division of the Korean peninsula along the 38th parallel by both the USA and the Soviet Union AFTER WWII?

  378. @Vidi

    Also see: Special Frontier Force, (aka Establishment 22) an Indian paramilitary special force created on 14 November 1962.

    Its main goal originally was to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

    Regards

    • Replies: @Vidi
  379. Malla says:
    @Vidi

    What is not known to many is that Mr. Zhou Enlai came to India just before the war to iron out differences in both the countries so that war would be avoided. And he was very coldly received ny new Delhi, nearly insulted. Are you freakin kidding me? The arrogance of the Indian deep State is up the charts. Zhaou Enlai, the Premier of the People’s Republic of China (and highly respected as skilled diplomat even by Western powers of that time) comes to you capital with a peace plan and you act like an arrogant asshole. Good our Govt got defeated. Such arrogant scum deserve it. The sad part is most Indian people do not know this. Only recently this is coming out

    https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/india-china-border-dispute-jawaharlal-nehru-zhou-enlai-6466231/
    Explained: The offer that Zhou made, and Nehru rejected… the lessons from it—Indian Express.
    Had Jawaharlal Nehru accepted Zhou Enlai compromise-based solution, Sudheendra Kulkarni argues, “India and China, after some negotiations, could have fixed the boundary permanently” and “prevented” the 1962 war.

    https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/crossing-the-point-of-no-return/article4028362.ece
    Crossing the point of no return –The Hindu Newspaper
    After Zhou Enlai’s 1960 trip to India ended in acrimony, Beijing concluded that Nehru was not interested in resolving the border dispute.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  380. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    And the cynic would be wrong in this case. Why? Because the British did not need to do this. If like the earlier conquerours like the Mughals or Scythian, the British would have collaborated with Brahmins to rule together and keep the lower castes down forever, their rule would have actually lasted much longer.

    This whole divide and conquer bullshit is blown out of proportion. The Brits won India fair and square, by military conquests and using statecraft as much as the other Indian powers (both Hindu, Sikh and Muslims) were into.

    In that video by Shambhu or National Dastak, just before the part where I have translated, he talks about Brahmins wanting an alliance with the Brits. However since the Brits on principle and morality began helping the lower caste, oppressed for millennia, the Brahmins and other upper castes (like mine) started acting against them and asking for “freedom” (to keep the oppression goin.)

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @KA
  381. PolarBear says:
    @KA

    The loss of Hypatia, the Library of Alexandria, and ancient monuments in the Middle East is greater.

  382. Malla says:
    @Vidi

    And also do not forget how Indians of Chinese ancestry were interned in concentration camps by the Indian Govt in 1962 just like how the USA did the same to Americans of Japanese ancestry during WW2.

    https://thewire.in/rights/chinese-indians-internment
    Why the Internment of Chinese Indians Is a Story That Must Be Told
    When citizens become enemies, such an episode cannot be pushed to the recesses of public memory.

    https://scroll.in/article/948731/the-shameful-story-of-how-3000-chinese-indians-were-put-in-a-detention-camp-is-revealed-in-new-book
    The shameful story of how 3,000 Chinese-Indians were put in a detention camp is revealed in new book

    https://www.himalmag.com/when-india-put-indians-in-camps-2020/
    When India put Indians in Camp
    The internment of Chinese Indians during the Sino-Indian War of 1962 has contemporary echoes.
    “Andy Hsieh was a school student in Shillong, a town in northeast India, when he was suddenly arrested one day in 1962. His crime? He was of Chinese descent.

    “The principal tried to intervene and told the officer he would personally guarantee his students’ safety… but the officer refused …They had no choice. They had to go to jail,” write Joy Ma and Dilip D’Souza, the authors of The Deoliwallahs, an account of the internment of Chinese Indians following the 1962 war between India and China.”

    There are books on this

    The Deoliwallahs Book by Dilip D’Souza and Joy Ma

    and
    Doing Time with Nehru: The Story of an Indian -Chinese Family
    Book by Yin Marsh


    from the book
    “The midnight knock on the door and the disappearance of a loved one into the hands of authorities is a 20th-century horror story familiar to many destined to “live in interesting times.” Yet, some stories remain untold. Such is the account of the internment of ethnic chinese who had settled for many years in northern India. ”

    And BTW for poster “anti-beast”, of all the Indians. the Indians who are talking in shame about this historical event are the Westernised, English speaking, “colonial minded”, Macualay putra Indians BTW.

    At least the Japanese Americans got compensation for that past. I doubt Chinese Indians got anything. Also what is not know, many of the Japanese American hotels were bought by Indians (there were very few then in the USA) in USA which led to the Indian owned motel industry in USA today. Also a lot of the Japanese American properties were sucked up by Jews, so someone was writing on Unz once. So Jews took up all the properties while the entire American People were taxed to pay compensation. Wow.

    • Thanks: d dan
  383. Vidi says:
    @Vidi

    The article links to a report by Henderson Brooks and Bhagat on the 1962 war.

    The link appears to have vanished from the Times of India article. Here’s another link to the Henderson-Brooks / Bhagat report: link.

    Warning: it’s a 126-megabyte PDF file named “TopSecretdocuments.pdf”.

  384. Vidi says:
    @Patagonia Man

    Also see: Special Frontier Force, (aka Establishment 22) an Indian paramilitary special force created on 14 November 1962.

    Its main goal originally was to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

    Thanks.

  385. Vidi says:
    @Malla

    What is not known to many is that Mr. Zhou Enlai came to India just before the war to iron out differences in both the countries so that war would be avoided.

    India’s media called Zhou Enlai “Chew and Lie”. As it turns out, it was India doing the lying.

    • Replies: @Malla
  386. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mefobills

    China gratefully absorbed our Patrimony, and also worked by hook and crook

    Sure they did, no argument.

    But let’s put it all into perspective; it’s important to be clear-headed about the whole thing.

    The Chinese did not so much as “push upon an open door” when it came to technology acquisition. It’s not as if the West merely neglected to protect our tech from China – “forgot to lock the vault”, so to speak.

    Oh no, nothing of the sort.

    It’s more a case of the West actively offering its know-how to China, “like the owner flinging open the doors of his mansion, and telling the other guy “If you will work your ass off and be my slave, and allow me to make mountains of profit from your labor and coming buying power, I hereby give you permission to come into my house and take anything and everything in the house”.

    What idiot would actually say no to such an offer? Was it China’s job to point out possible pitfalls?

    Absolutely not.

    As to the “by hook or by crook” part. That’s the way absolutely everyone has achieved development, ever. Did the United States, Germany, the Soviet Union, Japan, even France or Italy have any sort of compunction against giving themselves every advantage they could, every time they could? Of course not. China just did the same thing. WE Americans still do it to this day.

    Take solace and comfort from one sure prediction: the Chinese themselves will soon enough be the targets of technology espionage and underhanded tactics at the hands of South Americans, Middle Easterners, Africans and Central Asians.

    Guaranteed.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
    , @showmethereal
  387. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    One more point about this colonial mentality point. This is about a people in Eastern India/Bangladesh called the Bengalis. Combined they are one of the largest or probably the largest ethnic group in South Asia.

    Bengal was the part of India, the British first conquered. Thus with time a Anglo-Bengali culture was formed in colonial Bengal. The upper caste Brahmin/Kayastha etc… Bengali elites readily with time absorbed Anglo/British culture to create a mixed combined Anglo Bengali culture. Basically the high elite Victorian type British culture combined with elite Bengali Hindu culture to create a new elite culture of the “bhadralok” (any Bengali, correct me if I am wrong),which translates to gentleman. Basically a Bengali version of English gentleman, genteel and cultured. Even today the Bengali elite have a reputation of having the most elite classy culture of India and Bengalis have the reputation of being highly intelligent and intellectual and very highly developed in art and culture. They readily absorbed English/British and even European literature and became quite anglicized, a new Anglo-Indian type culture was formed in colonial Bengal. There is even a Shakespeare Street in Calcutta.

    To understand this class of Bengali bhadralok/gentleman elites watch this short video (some song)

    You see highly anglicized Bengali-British culture. The cloths they wear are Indian but the house, the decor and furniture are very British. The guy plays a piano, which was an import from England. The thing the woman offers to the guy at 0.28 mins, the thing he plays around with at 1:00 minute and what she eats at 1:35 minutes, that is betel leaf, an Indian food. He sings infront of a picture of a Victorian English portrait at 1:40 to 2:05 minutes. A mixed genteel Indian and British culture mixed.

    Well guess what? Some of the most fearsome, firebrand anti-British early revolutionaries/ terrorists in India came from this group. Subhash Chandra Bose was from this community. Rabindranath Tagore, the first non White person to win a Nobel prize came from this community and he is the only man to perhaps write the national Anthem of two nations (India and Bangladesh). He is the national poet of India and a great composer of songs. He was highly influenced by Scottish music (he lived in Scotland for many years) and was an admirer of Robert Burns, the National Poet of Scotland. Basically he was the Robert Burns of Bengal itself. Indeed Bengalis (of both India and Bangladesh) have won like 4 Noble Prizes.

    The Govt of India (British Raj) report came to the conclusion that Bengal had too many educated people but as the economy was not growing as fast, there were many educated people working for poor pay. I think there is one more explanation. The British in their writings say that they (rightly) found the Bengalis as a whole the most quick witted of all the peoples they found in India and the upper caste elites of Bengal most intelligent (surprisingly not South Indians Brahmins) but they also found Bengalis the most genteel and the least warlike. Indeed they were afraid that if the British were to leave India, without British protection, some warlike race of Indian Subcontinent from the North like the Sikkimese (they along with the Bhutanese have a history of militarily preying on Bengal), or Nepalis or Sikhs or Marathas would sweep down and easily conquer Bengal.
    My explanation of why the early Anglophile Bengalis eventually turned Anglophobe, why the break in love affair in between Bengal and England is this, the Bengalis as a whole (not only brahmins) are a Brahman type ethnic group. Very intellectual. The British on the other hand are a Brahman-Kshatriya ethnic group, a intellectual+warrior ethnic group. The Brahmin/intellectual sides of the two groups meshed very well but the Kshatriya/warrior side of the British did not mesh with the Bengalis. The Bengali elites at times found the British too rough, basically they found the Brits a strange mix of Highly Civilized Gentleman and Rough Cowboys. It is actually with the more warrior Kshatriya martial tribe like Indian ethnic groups like the Sikhs, Gurkhas, mountain Gehrwalis, Rajputs, Rohilla Pathans etc…that the Brits meshed with better towards the end. The Sikhs and Gurkhas fought like lions, made the British bleed for every inch of soil they gave but once conquered, remained more or less fiercely loyal to the British Raj till the end. The early Bengal Army was made up of Bengali upper caste as well as Bihari upper caste but both Bengalis and Biharis ran away from the battlefield against the fierce Sikhs, only the White British soldiers of the Bengal Army stood their ground and fought back (gaining the respect of the Sikhs). Biharis are a people just north of Bengalis but they are neither intellectuals nor good soldiers, they make a big portion of thugs and goons in India. Good thugs but pathetic soldiers. Like blacks or maybe Italians.
    Thus with time the Anglophilism of the Anglicized Bengali elites ended and they gave some of the most fierce revolutionaries in the early anti-British days.
    Strangely Bengalis are quite Japanophiles. Maybe they admire the high Japanese culture (like they admired high British culture earlier) as well as like most Asians (even Middle Easterners at that time) admired Asian power Japan defeating European power Russia. Not only do we have Subhash Chandra Bose but Radhabinod Pal the Indian who defended Japan in the Tokyo Trials was Bengali.

    I have a lot of Bengali friends and even my cousin sister is married to one of these types. In their festivals here in Delhi all the young Bengalis (mostly upper caste) spoke posh English, highly intellectual, very westernized but probably the most fiercely proud and even most arrogant of their own high native Bengali culture. So somehow Anglicization can go hand in hand with extreme self pride.

    Another group who gave many fierce anti-British revolutionaries in the early period are a small community of Western India, in Maharashtra (Bombay) called the Maharastrian Kokanastha/ Chitpavan Brahmins. Indeed strangely these Brahmins have a reputation of being very fair and for having many light coloured eyed Nordic type individuals. They also have a reputation of being extremely intelligent and have steely willpower. The entire anti-British movement in the early period from Western India (Bombay Province) came from this community who make a tiny community among Maharashtrians, the other Brahmins, the middle caste warrior Marathas and lower castes who outnumbered them a lot did not take part in anti-British activities., only these Kokanastha Brahmins of Poona city revolted. Kokanastha Brahmins are a mix of highly traditional on one hand and highly Westenised on the other hand. Indeed among Maharastrians, part of their community are the most Westernized. I would not call them a Brahmin only type ethnic group but a Brahmin + Kshatriya like the British. The Peshwa rulers of the Hindu Maratha Empire was from this group. Indeed a Peshwa Baji Rao I from this community was a great warrior and military leader who never faced a defeat. In his 20-year military career, he never lost a battle.Peshwa Baji Rao I. Another Peshwa Vishwasrao, a Kokanastha Brahmin who died fiercely fighting the Afghans had blue eyes. G. S. Sardesai writes that none was there considered more handsome-looks in Peshwa lineage than this Peshwa ViswasRao. Even Bajirao I, mentioned above never losing a single battle, was as renowned for his beauty. Bajirao, historian Sahasrabudhe said, was widely lauded as not just handsome, but beautiful. There is a story that when he went to visit the Muslim Nizam’s court in Hyderabad, the Nizam’s begums/queens showered pearls on him because he was so beautiful. A Bonnie Prince Charlie of Maharashtra. There is a famous love story of Hindu Peshwa Bajirao and Muslim Persian courtesan Mastani. I already said that half of this Kokanastha/Chitpavan community were very anglicized (the other half super traditional), yet they produced some of the most firebrand revolutionaries against the British, in their case, they were pissed that they lost their Maratha Empire to the British.
    Strangely Abhijit Banerjee, the Indian guy who recently won the nobel prize of economics, well guess what? His Dad is a Bengali Brahmin elite and his Mom is a Maharastrian Kokanastha/Chitpavan Brahmin. So a combination of two high IQ Indian groups, whose highly westernized/ anglicized ancestors provided some of the most firebrand anti-British revolutionaries in the early anti-British movement.

    Also something which is ironic is that Bengal and Kerala (South India), two parts of India which were highly westernized are also was where communism was the most dominant and often came to power via elections. In Bengal, the leaders of the Communist party were mostly upper caste Bengalis such as Jyoti Basu (one of t longest running Chief Minister sin the World) and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya. The Maoist Naxalbari (Naxalites) is in West Bengal. Kerala was a princely state (outside direct British Indian Govt control but with allegiance to the King Emperor ) Travancore where the Queen Gowri Lakshmi Bayi appointed John Munro as Resident and Diwan who made many improvements in the State which is why Keral has some of theighest literacy rates in India.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Munro,_9th_of_Teaninich
    Kerala also has many Christians, about 35% of the population.

    Summary: Many highly Anglicized elites in India provided some of the most fearsome anti-British revolutionaries.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  388. Mefobills says:
    @Anonymous

    I call it the two step shuffle. Finance capitalists in Wall Street selling our patrimony for cheap, while China monetizes it to benefit themselves. Or, American companies in China monetize our patrimony in China to sell goods back to American’s. This makes wall street into a hero, while American labor becomes a zero.

    Also, anybody who makes claims that China does not use industrial spying is a disinformation agent. I agree also with you that others in future will try to spy on China, especially when China pulls ahead.

    It is on the host country to protect themselves. Nationalism means protecting your country and its citizens.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  389. Panju says:

    Let’s move from history to a real risk of Chinese/Indian Mountain War 2 (MW2)

    We have enough historical docs that tell us that prior to MW1 in 62, Nehru mismanaged the situation through his overreach with respect to China, fueled perhaps by his arrogance that ‘his intellect’ and ‘worldwide respect’ will be enough to get India ‘what is ours’.

    Question is:

    1. Is India repeating same mistake again falsely assuming that –

    a) tons of weapons bought globally will ‘teach a lesson to China this time’
    b) the ‘world is with us’ and if things go really south, we will not be alone
    c) we have experience in high mountain warfare (Kargil) while China does not.

    2. Is it not in China’s interest to resolve this boundary issue once for all just to get the fking thing over with.

    a) If Chou En Lai’s proposal was good in 1960, why not offer it now and get this thing resolved. IMHO, China should not be motivated by ‘teach them a lesson again’
    b) China is getting richer and stronger by the day, who needs another enemy next door? India is a huge market, why lose it?
    c) China will invite many genuine competitors (India is not one of them) who will fight tooth and nail to stop China’s perceived global dominance. Why bother with India?
    d) Germany had most efficient economy and powerful army, but too many enemies on too many fronts. Watch out!

    I pray, for the sake of innocent lives, that common sense prevails.

  390. Malla says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Ibn Khaldun was not and is not considered a reliable source for fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence).

    But he is a highly respected historian and scholar. And he was a devout Muslim too, if you read his section on prophet Mohammed’s life (before the prophet gets his instructions from angel Gabriel), he is full of praise of the prophet’s qualities, like how when the Prophet was invited to a night party in Mecca, he went to sleep rather than partake in any sin. I am sure he right about the attack on Berbers and Europeans by Arabs.

    It was never about spreading Islam to non-arabs as classical Islam was basically just judaism for arabs. Infact, the Ummayads actively discouraged conversions to Islam (partly due to economic reasons) because they understood this. It took centuries for Islam to spread in lands that the arabs conqured. Conversions to Islam were usually a slow trickle.

    Yeah that might be true. But even then Arabs did spread it in North Africa by force, no denying that. As far as the Ummayads, yeah that is right, they made more money from jiziya. The Ummyads were weird too as the Arabs during their reign treated Muslim Persians as ‘ajams’ or barbarians like the Arab version of Hindu ‘Mlcecha’. That is so un-Islamic. In those days Persia was an apartheid like state, like South Africa with the Arabs as Afrikaners and Persians as blacks. All that changed after the Abbasids came to power and now the Persian intellect could have a lot of influence in the Islamic world. Even the early Muslim rulers of India considered our Indian Muslims as ‘ajams’ not Islamic enough yet. That is why when Ibn Battuta came, he was immediately given the post of qadi (judge) as he was from a now more Islamized part of the World (North Africa/ Maghreb) unlike the native Muslims.

    The central Asians massacred plenty of Indian Muslims as well.

    Yes that is right but we seen references of targeting, killing and destroying the idol worshipers. There was some special impetus given in attacking idol worshiper Hindus. But I agree that many Muslim invaders attacked and destroyed Indian mosques too along with temples, in that you are right.

    Compared to what the Romans did to the Jews, or what the mongols did to the Persians, or what the Aztecs did to their neighbors (orgies of human sacrifice) the Hindus weren’t particularly worse off.

    Yeah that is true, after all Hinduvadis do hype up things. Also remember India had a huge population (thanks to our blessed fertile land) to take the blow. And as far as the Romans to Jews, well the Jews were themselves not innocent, always creating trouble and disturbing the peace with their (non Roman) neighbours in the Empire, fanatic factions full of hatred for goyim. Cannot blame the Romans for getting pissed. Fanatic Pharisee Jews in the Roman Empire reminds me of fanatic orthodox Brahmans in the British Empire.

  391. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Summary: Many highly Anglicized elites in India provided some of the most fearsome anti-British revolutionaries.

    Franz Fanon wrote about this phenomenon in his book “Black Skin, White Masks” wherein he observed the “overdetermined” behavior of non-White colonial subjects in Western colonies, whether in the Caribbean, in British India or elsewhere. In China, these Westernized, English-speaking elites are labeled “bananas”, for being Yellow outside but White inside. Unlike India, China was invaded but not colonized by the Western Powers, who preferred the Chinese to remain under the Qing rulers while they proceeded to conduct their economic exploitation of China. In fact, the Qing rulers became their puppets after the Western Powers, namely the British and the French, helped put down the Taiping Rebellion which broke out after the Opium Wars. Nevertheless, only 1% of the Chinese population had contact with the White Westerners, either as their partners, employees or servants while 99% of the Chinese population did not. This dichotomy is exemplified by both the Taiping Rebellion as well as the later Boxer Rebellion which were grassroots attempts to remove the foreign presence in China. This deep-seated anti-foreign xenophobia still dominate Chinese society to this day even as the Chinese economy has become more international. This is true in all of East Asia such as in Japan which has always been ethno-nationalist in terms of the Japanese conception of State, Nation, Society and Culture, as exemplified by Tokugawa’s persecution of Japanese Christians followed by Meiji’s restoration of Imperial Japan based on State Shinto as the State religion, both of which are indigenous Japanese reactions to foreign influences in Japan.

    Your post proves that British India was far more receptive to British influences as exemplified by the Westernized elites in Bengal, Bombay and elsewhere. But this “White Mask” as Franz Fanon observed is proof of what he calls “overdetermined” behavior of colonized non-White subjects. That is to say: these non-Whites want to outdo the Whites in their “Whiteness”. You see this in the ornate mansions and lavish lifestyles of Indian moguls, Bollywood stars, Brahmin elites, etc., whether in India or in London. Even the anti-Western provocations of Westernized intellectuals is testament to this “overdetermined” behavior when what they really want is to be treated as “White” such as the Congress Party’s attempt to craft a post-colonial Socialist India which follows the Western model of Modernism based on Liberalism. You see this “overdetermined” behavior even amongst so-called Indian nationalists such as the Hindu supremacists in the RSS/BJP who are more than willing to sell out India even as they ape White nationalists in the West.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  392. Malla says:
    @anon

    Yeah Christians in Pakistan are treated like a lower castes sweeping streets. Really screwed up.

  393. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Franz Fanon wrote about this phenomenon in his book “Black Skin, White Masks”

    Franz Fanon is an idiot. No one should take him seriously. Take his poisonous bullshit at your own peril.

    This deep-seated anti-foreign xenophobia still dominate Chinese society to this day even as the Chinese economy has become more international. This is true in all of East Asia such as in Japan which has always been ethno-nationalist in terms of the Japanese conception of State,

    I know all this. Hope White people become ethno-nationalists too. Anti-foreign xenophobia existed before the West came in because the Han Chinese looked at the world as Middle kingdom—> tributary states—>barbarians.

    You see this in the ornate mansions and lavish lifestyles of Indian moguls, Bollywood stars, Brahmin elites, etc., whether in India or in London.

    Our pre-British Indian elites were far more ornate than the British. So we are becoming native.

    Even the anti-Western provocations of Westernized intellectuals is testament to this “overdetermined” behavior when what they really want is to be treated as “White” such as the Congress Party’s attempt to craft a post-colonial Socialist India which follows the Western model of Modernism based on Liberalism.

    Again blind anti-West hatred leads to misunderstandings. Yes it is true that the Congress tried aping certain traits of the West but also the Congress was the one which officially fought against colonialism and then wrote textbooks with full on anti-British propaganda. The Congress was pro-Soviet and anti-West but of course the Soviets were White too.

    Your post proves that British India was far more receptive to British influences as exemplified by the Westernized elites in Bengal, Bombay and elsewhere. But this “White Mask” as Franz Fanon observed is proof of what he calls “overdetermined” behavior of colonized non-White subjects. That is to say: these non-Whites want to outdo the Whites in their “Whiteness”.

    Yet most of the early anti-British revolutionaries came from this Westernised group. Fannon’s bullshit way of looking at the world or the Marxist way of looking at the world is too childish and simplistic.

    You see this “overdetermined” behavior even amongst so-called Indian nationalists such as the Hindu supremacists in the RSS/BJP who are more than willing to sell out India even as they ape White nationalists in the West.

    This is the biggest misunderstanding of India I have ever read.
    Firstly Hindu nationalism has nothing to do with White nationalism. They are not even alike. Just because Trump and Modi get along, coming to this conclusion is stupidity. Please do not tell me this is how the Chinese deep State looks at things because if they do, this is a grave misunderstanding and will screw things up.
    BJP IS INDIAN NATIONALISM. ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY OF INDIANS, INDIA IS HINDU, PERIOD. ALWAYS WILL BE. BJP is decolonisation in action. If you do not understand this you do not understand India. Indian Nationalism IS BJP, Indian decolonization will inevitably lead to BJP and even more rightwinged ultra-nationlist Hindutva in the future.
    You are trying to see the world from the lens of China’s experience of history mixed with Marxism. You are trying to impose China’s experience on India. A grave mistake. China had only one recent civilization shock and that was with the West, the Great Humiliation. India had two civilizational shocks Islam and the West. BOTH ARE FOREIGN TO INDIANS. HINDUS will never consider Islam as native, never ever, for them it is a foreign import, to be thrown out of the subcontinent, it is an Arabic religion Period. China did not face Islamic rulers ruling China, you may have had Islamic officials, China did not face anything we faced during the brutality of the Islamic age. That is why the Chinese do not understand.
    Now let me make it clear, I do not support this anti-Islamic stance of our nationalists. But this is to explain things only
    You want India to be anti-West only. Only a fool who never understands India will have such childish aspirations. The anti-West/ anti-British of the Congress led to the anti-British, anti-Islam of the BJP. THERE WAS NOT GOING TO BE HINDU-MUSLIM PEACE ONCE THE BRITISH LEFT. Why do you think Jinnah wanted Pakistan the moment he realised that the British will not stay for much longer. Pakistan was a result of the British leaving India prematurely.
    This is how the conversation is going.
    Chinese foreigner who totally misunderstands India: “Be anti-West, yeah, we like it. But consider the Muslims as your brothers. Christianity is foreign, West is foreign, White devils foreign. Not good for you. China good for you. Muslims good for you. Accept Muslim and China but reject West.”
    Indians Nationalist: “Yep we hate West, British and Christianity. Want want all vestiges of it scrubbed from the subcontinent. (Chinese foreigner smiling and happy but not for long) BUT Islam is foreign too. It is a foreign import to our holy Motherland. We Indian patriots will not rest until we have scrubbed this foreign Arabic import from our glorious Holy land. And you Chinese are our enemies too. The Chinese Govt is the enemy of the Indian Nation.”
    Chinese foreigner who does not understand India: “No no, only West foreign. Only White foreign, Christianity foreign. Islam good. China good. See how awesome Mughals were, why you not proud of Mughal?”
    Indian Nationalist: “No no no, Islam is as foreign and will forever be foreign. The Indian soul will never accept Islam, never ever till the end of time. And it will have to be scrubbed clean from the subcontinent. Mughals were foreigners. All mosques will have to be turned into temples. One day, I swear by my motherland, the Taj Mahal will become a Shiva temple. And I will die and bleed for my Mother India to finally see all these foreign influences both Western, Christianity, Islam etc.. scrubbed from my holy land. ”
    Be careful what you wish for. And your wishing will not change anything. India is inevitably moving towards the direction that I have outlined above. INDIA IS BECOMING ITSELF WITH THE BJP. With Modi India becomes itself again. If you do not understand this, you do not understand India, you do not understand the Indian people, you do not understand the Indian soul. Even before Modi came, all his rhetoric was common among Indian nationalists. Modi just told the people what the Indian soul was always yearning to hear. And the people cried, “yes India will finally become itself again, after a 1000 years of humiliation, we shall take revenge, scrub our mother land clean and go back to our golden period.”
    If you do not understand this, you do not understand India. European Empires were not the first time humans have built empires. There were many before that and the wounds still exists and will always exist for the Indian National Soul until it gets retribution for the past, until the motherland is cleansed of all Muslims and Christians. Nothing a Chinese outsider says will change anything. Anyways the Indian nation will never rest in the long term until it attains what I have said earlier. Theories of buffoons like Franz Fannon a black idiot with beef with Whitey is too shallow, to childish, too simplistic to understand India.
    Franz Fannon like theories will INEVITABLY unleash (it already is) Muslim genocide in India.

  394. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    a feat matched only by a few such as Egypt, Iran, Russia, India, etc.
    ancient Greco-Roman-

    LOL according to Indians, Egypt, Iran, Rome and Greece are dead civilizations. And surprisingly it is a poem of a great Indian Muslim philosopher, scholar & poet Muhammad Iqbal has this theme. His patriotic song “Sare Jahan se Accha” in Urdu translated as “Better than the World”says it all.

    Sāre jahān se acchā, Hindositān hamārā
    Better than the entire world, is our Hind (India),
    Ham bulbulen hain is kī, yih gulsitān hamārā
    We are its nightingales, and it (is) our garden abode

    G̱ẖurbat men hon agar ham, rahtā hai dil wat̤an men
    If we are in an alien place, the heart remains in the homeland
    Samjho wuhīn hamen bhī dil ho jahān hamārā
    Know us to be only there where our heart is.

    …snip…

    Yūnān o-Misr o-Rūmā, sab miṭ ga’e jahāṉ se
    In a world in which ancient Greece, Egypt, and Rome have all vanished
    Ab tak magar hai bāqī, nām o-nis̱ẖan hamārā
    Our own attributes (name and sign) live on today.

    Kuch bāt hai kih hastī, miṭtī nahīṉ hamārī
    There is something about our existence for it doesn’t get wiped
    Ṣadiyoṉ rahā hai dus̱ẖman daur-i zamāṉ hamārā
    Even though, for centuries, the time-cycle of the world has been our enemy.

    According to him, India is the only surviving civilization while Egypt, Rome, Greece have all disappeared. There is something in our existence that it does not get wiped.
    Ironically Iqbal is also the spiritual father of Pakistan. But he wrote this Urdu poem before he started the demand for a separate Pakistan.

  395. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Franz Fanon wrote about this phenomenon in his book “Black Skin, White Masks” wherein he observed the “overdetermined” behavior of non-White colonial subjects in Western colonies, whether in the Caribbean, in British India or elsewhere. In China, these Westernized, English-speaking elites are labeled “bananas”,

    One more thing. Many orthodox Indians even when ruled by the British considered the British Mlecha barbarians. Even the touch from the British Indian Viceroy would be considered polluting to them. I am sure that pleases your heart a lot. You say bravo, be Indian.
    But guess what, according to those same orthodox Indians you Chinese are mlechha barbarians too. You can fart around about your Song and Pong and Tang, for an orthodox Brahmin you guys are lowly barbarians, he would not be impressed one bit. Give it a try, go to our Shankaracharyas and try, he would make you cry. Arabs and Persians could fart about Koran and Islamic philosophy and some Caliph or some Abu Bakar or Abu Makar, this or that, for our Orthodox Hindus they are lowly barbarians. Your Confucius or or the Queen of England or Prophet Mohammed himself or your Song dynasty Emperor or your Mao would touch a vessel, for an orthodox Hindu that vessel would become unclean and impure and he would not eat from it.
    So not all Indians were not westernized, only a section. A huge section were orthodox Hindus like I have mentioned above. We were being ourselves.
    BTW I personally do not support the above point of view but I am just explaining. Secondly the British did not force their culture upon us. If you wanted traditional Hindu education, in British India you were free to get it in an institution supported by the British Raj, Govt of India. If you wanted to only wear Indian clothes and not have any aspect of English culture in your lifestyle, you were free to do so in British India, no Brit would come and whip you and make you take aspects of Anglo culture. You were free to chose as you please. If in British India, you wanted an Islamic Madrassa education and did not want any word of English you were free to do so, you could go to an Islamic Madrassa in British India supported by the British Raj Govt of India and get an Islamic taleem. No Englishman would whip you and force you to English education.

    Nobody forced Franz Fanon to wear a coat and tie and speak French. He could have gone to Africa, taken off his Western cloths, worn some African cloths (or gone about naked) like his ancestors and danced around some drum in the jungle. No YT would have stopped him. No YT around so that he had to wear any White Masks.

    Africans in the 1950s colonial period were free to be themselves, to live their culture.
    Instead of writing his rubbish, Mr Fanon should have gone to some jungle in Central Africa, danced around naked like his ancestors, gone fishing and live in his mud hut. Why did he not do this? Why did he torture his soul by living in France. What you think?
    Why Fanon not do wise and harmonious thing and go dance in jungle around drum? Why he lentil-head and write stupid things?

    Also when he was diagnosed with leukemia, why did he not seek some African traditional medicine like his ancestors? Why he go to Whitey Soviet Union? And why the CIA arranged a trip to the U.S. for further leukemia treatment at a National Institutes of Health facility?? Why during his time in the United States, Fanon was handled by CIA agent Oliver Iselin???
    And why he died with the name Ibrahim Fanon? Woz he Black Skin, Brown Mask? He changed his mask from White to Brown but his skin is till Black.
    Why he married a French woman? Why not a fellow black woman?
    Dude, do not mention such shits to me again. He could have solved his unfortunate mental condition by going to Sub Saharan Africa forever. He could have gone to free Liberia. Maybe as a New World returnee Black man he could have owned some native black slaves and a plantation.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Anonymous
  396. antibeast says:
    @Mefobills

    I call it the two step shuffle. Finance capitalists in Wall Street selling our patrimony for cheap, while China monetizes it to benefit themselves. Or, American companies in China monetize our patrimony in China to sell goods back to American’s. This makes wall street into a hero, while American labor becomes a zero.

    Although your statement that US MNCs “outsourced” their manufacturing and “transferred” their industrial technology to China is true, it is not accurate to say that China was the only destination of such “outsourcing” in the past nor will it continue to be the preferred destination of such “outsourcing” in the future. The economic reality is that US MNCs make such business decisions based on financial considerations which makes other lower-cost developing countries the preferred destination of such “outsourcing” in the past and in the future.

    US politics tend to use China either as the political bogeyman or economic scapegoat but the economic reality is that the China train has already left the “outsourcing” station and departed for the next stop which is the “hi-tech” station of the future. This is China today:

    Go to Walmart today and you’ll find all those cheap consumer stuff made in countries like Honduras, Vietnam, Indonesia, Mexico, etc.

  397. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    One more thing. Many orthodox Indians even when ruled by the British considered the British Mlecha barbarians. Even the touch from the British Indian Viceroy would be considered polluting to them. I am sure that pleases your heart a lot. You say bravo, be Indian. But guess what, according to those same orthodox Indians you Chinese are mlechha barbarians too. You can fart around about your Song and Pong and Tang, for an orthodox Brahmin you guys are lowly barbarians, he would not be impressed one bit. Give it a try, go to our Shankaracharyas and try, he would make you cry. Arabs and Persians could fart about Koran and Islamic philosophy and some Caliph or some Abu Bakar or Abu Makar, this or that, for our Orthodox Hindus they are lowly barbarians. Your Confucius or or the Queen of England or Prophet Mohammed himself or your Song dynasty Emperor or your Mao would touch a vessel, for an orthodox Hindu that vessel would become unclean and impure and he would not eat from it.

    What you’re describing is the medieval culture of pre-modern Hindu India, untouched by any Western ideas of Modern Liberalism. That’s quite natural for medieval tribalist cultures which are still prevalent in pre-modern societies in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Europe too went through the process of becoming “modern” by discarding their medieval feudalist cultures during the European Age of Enlightenment which saw the Italian Renaissance, Protestant Reformation, Industrial and Scientific Revolutions transform the medieval character of Western feudalism into modern industrial Western nation-states. Eastern Europe took longer but went through a different route from Slavic Feudalism to Orthodox Christianity to Soviet Communism.

    So not all Indians were westernized, only a section. A huge section were orthodox Hindus like I have mentioned above. We were being ourselves.

    Agree. That the Westernized Indians became the leading anti-Western protagonists is exactly the contradiction that Fanon found himself in as he became the leading anti-Western revolutionary in the national liberation movements in Africa. He probably found the process of becoming African therapeutic for his tortured soul in the same way that Westernized Indian elites like Subhas Chandra Bose found his calling fighting against the British by joining forces with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

    Nobody forced Franz Fanon to wear a coat and tie and speak French. He could have gone to Africa, taken off his Western cloths, worn some African cloths (or gone about naked) like his ancestors and danced around some drum in the jungle.

    Fanon grew up speaking and thinking like a Frenchman. But after moving to France, he discovered that he was just a negro, someone unworthy of White Christian European Civilization. All his life, he savored all the French ideals of liberté, égalité, fraternité which turned out to be just a liberal charade hiding behind the rapacity and savagery of Western Colonialism of which he was a victim. Ironically, Africa and Latin America are now home to most of the world’s Christians while White Europeans themselves are now reverting back to Paganism, taking off their modern cloths (which was introduced to Europe from Asia), going about naked or wearing animal skins like their stone-age ancestors while dancing around some drum in the forests, as shown in this video:

    • Replies: @Malla
  398. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Malla,

    I suggest you learn not to care so much what an outsider, someone with no ties to your race, writes or says. Snicker behind his back, or to his face, it doesn’t matter. But stop caring.

    Your replies were MUCH, MUCH longer and contained FAR MORE PASSION than warranted by the original post. Almost like it hit a nerve, or something.

    We get it, you really are Indian to the very core. No need to say so much, like you are trying to prove a moral point. To whom? To us, to the world – or to yourself?

    Look, just say what you mean, then move on.

    • Replies: @Malla
  399. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Fanon grew up speaking and thinking like a Frenchman. But after moving to France, he discovered that he was just a negro, someone unworthy of White Christian European Civilization. All his life, he savored all the French ideals of liberté, égalité, fraternité which turned out to be just a liberal charade hiding behind the rapacity and savagery of Western Colonialism of which he was a victim.

    He could have gone back to Martinique then, gone to Africa then.
    “Rapacity and savagery” of Western colonialism is blown out of proportion and I have written about this so many times.
    And why the CIA arranged a trip to the U.S. for further leukemia treatment at a National Institutes of Health facility?? Who knows who this guy was?

    • Replies: @antibeast
  400. Malla says:
    @Anonymous

    Your replies were MUCH, MUCH longer and contained FAR MORE PASSION than warranted by the original post. Almost like it hit a nerve, or something.

    People saying things which I know is not true.

    Look, just say what you mean, then move on.

    Thanx. Will try that.

  401. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    You know the story about the moth and the flame? Fanon was like the Black moth attracted to the White flame of France, the pinnacle of White Christian Civilization in Europe. Like the Black moth, he got burned so bad that his love of France turned into hate which drove him to agitate for Algerian Independence, among other things that he did against France. The CIA had a file on him and sent an agent to work with him in North Africa. He died in the USA which he called a “nation of lynchers”.

    There were other Blacks like him such as the civil-rights activist W.E.B. Dubois — the first African-American PhD at Harvard — who became a citizen of and died in Ghana. US history books pretty much ignore Black Marxists like Fanon or W.E.B. Dubois, preferring to lionize Black Liberals like MLK, Jr. Like it or not, Fanonism is very influential today in Marxist studies such as Critical Race Theory which is behind political movements such as BLM in the USA.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  402. Malla says:
    @Vidi

    Media in general in all the world is propaganda. But I have not seen such low IQ media with blatant lying as I have seen in India. Even Pakistani news media is much better. Seriously. Far better.
    Indian media traditionally even during British times was a Baniya (mercantile) owner with a Brahmin editor. The Brahmins simply dumped the Kshatriyas and mad an alliance with mercantile baniyas. Who need warriors in these modern times, you need the merchants. Warriors were useful in the pre modern times to control a population. Example being the Geeta Press.

    This lying buch played a big part in supporting the “freedom struggle of the Congress”. Ambedkar said in his work “Plea to the Foreigner’ about how the world and the British people in particular consider only the Congress as the representative of India. he writes not only is the Indian media (controlled by Congressi Banias) is anti-British Raj, the British media is too anti-British Raj!!!
    Now the media (except NDTV -controlled opposition media like Fox News in USA) is all for the Hindutva BJP and now the Indian National Congress have become the new “British Raj”LOL. Karma? This is the elusive Indian Media, the Chinese deep state is puzzled about.

  403. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    The CIA had a file on him and sent an agent to work with him in North Africa. He died in the USA which he called a “nation of lynchers”.

    Bullshit more like the USA was trying to dismantle all the European Empires. Why would they try to save his life?
    Only a Negro? Why was he allowed to marry a French woman? Could he have merried an Indian Hindu woman? Not likely. In Zanzibar, could he have married an Arab woman, nope but an Arab could have married black women.

    Fanonism is very influential today in Marxist studies such as Critical Race Theory which is behind political movements such as BLM in the USA.

    Critical Theory is Jewish bullshit to dismantle the West.

    Anyways Franz Fannon is not good to explain the Indian elites. What my point is Western education itself was revolutionary. In Western education our elites learnt about the French Revolution and American Revolution. What is what influenced them for demanding political rights as Lord Macaulay (who introduced education) predicted. The problem in India was that the British were protectors of the weak like the lower castes and even Muslims after 1900. The Westernized upper caste elites were the ones asking for political rights, earlier they wanted dominion status like Australia and Canada and NZ. The British were going to eventually give Indian Dominion Status in the long term but they realized that India was not ready yet. It would lead to chaps and exploitation by the educated elites, the Indian population is not developed yet. And rightfully so. The elites took this as “racism”. But everything the British predicted is coming to pass. The rise of Hindu fundamentalism, break of India itself as soon as the British left, Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan, all these are a result of leaving the Empire too early.

    To understand this there is this speech from Ambedkar. Ambedkar was from a lower caste backgroud, unlike the Congress elites asking for independence. He was educated but when he as an officer went to work, the peon who had a upper caste than him looked down upon him inspite of Ambedkar being more educated. He was just a negro to them. He got an even higher education in England (thanks to the support of the Royal Gaikwads), and when he came back, his peon would not touch him in fear of losing caste. His upper caste peon would use a stick to take his files. “He was justa Negro.”

    But I will write in next post.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  404. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    First, who is Dr. Ambedkar?Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar (14 April 1891 – 6 December 1956), popularly known as Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, was an Indian jurist, economist, politician and social reformer who inspired the Dalit Buddhist movement and campaigned against social discrimination towards the untouchables (Dalits), while also supporting the rights of women and labour. He was independent India’s first law and justice minister, the architect of the Constitution of India, and a founding father of the Republic of India. In India and elsewhere, he was often called Babasaheb, meaning “respected father” in Marathi and Hindi.

    And secondly, who is Mahadev Govind Ranade?
    Mahadev Govind Ranade (18 January 1842 – 16 January 1901) was an Indian scholar, foremost social reformer, justice and author. He was a founding member of the Indian National Congress party and owned several designations as member of the Bombay legislative council, member of the finance committee at the centre, and judge of the Bombay High Court, Maharashtra.

    Ranade was a visionary who summarised the mission of the Indian social reform movement as to “Humanize, Equalize and Spiritualize”. He campaigned against the ‘purdah’ system (keeping women behind the veil).He was a founder of the Social Conference movement, which he supported till his death, directing his social reform efforts against child marriage, the shaving of widows’ heads, the heavy cost of marriages and other social functions, and the caste restrictions on traveling abroad, and he strenuously advocated widow remarriage and female education. He was one of the founders of the Widow Marriage Association in 1861.

    Ranande was a upper caste Brahmin but opposed the caste system.

    ————-

    From
    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/txt_ambedkar_ranade.html

    Dr. Ambedkar writes about Mr. Ranade, thus

    “There is one charge against Ranade which is frequently made and which I think must be met. It is said of Ranade that he believed that the conquest of India by the British was Providential, that it was in the best interest of India, that she should remain within the British Empire, and that therein lay her final destiny. In short, Ranade is accused of being opposed to India’s Independence.

    The charge is founded on the following utterances of Ranade:—

    It cannot be easily assumed that in God’s Providence, such vast multitudes as those who inhabit India were placed centuries together under influences and restraints of alien domination, unless such influences and restraints were calculated to do lasting service in the building up of the strength and character of the people in directions in which the Indian races were most deficient. Of one thing we are certain, that after lasting over five hundred years, the Mohammedan Empire gave way, and made room for the re-establishment of the old native races in the Punjab, and throughout Central Hindusthan and Southern India, on foundations of a much more solid character than those which yielded so easily before the assaults of the early Mohammedan conquerors.”
    “Both Hindus and Mohammedans lack many of those virtues represented by the love of order and regulated authority. Both are wanting in the love of municipal freedom, in the exercise of virtues necessary for civic life, and in aptitudes for mechanical skill, in the love of science and research in the love and daring of adventurous discovery, the resolution to master difficulties, and in chivalrous respect for womankind. Neither the old Hindus nor the old Mohammedan civilization was in a condition to train these virtues in a way to bring up the races of India on a level with those of Western Europe, and so the work of education had to be renewed, and it has been now going on for the past century and more under the Pax Brittanica with results—which all of us are witnesses to in ourselves.”

    A mere glance at these statements is enough to show that the charge is based on a misunderstanding, if not on a misreading, of the statements. The statements are plain and simple, and they cannot even by inference be said to lead to the conclusion that Ranade was opposed to India’s independence. In that sense the charge is false and without foundation.
    These statements of Ranade, far from casting any reflection upon his self-respect, testify to his wisdom and to his sagacity. What did Ranade want to convey by these statements? As I understand them, I think Ranade wanted to convey two things. The first thing he wanted to convey was that the conquest of India by Britain has given India the time, the opportunity, and the necessary shelter for rebuilding, renovating, and repairing her economic and social structure, to refit herself for bearing the strain of any foreign aggression when she does become free. The second thing Ranade wanted to convey was that going out of the British Empire by India before she had satisfied and solidified herself into a single nation, unified in thought, in feeling, and charged with a sense of a common destiny, was to invite chaos and disruption in the name of independence.

    How very important these truths are! People do not realize the part that shelter plays in the smooth working out of social, economic and political conflicts which are inevitable in every society which desires to advance. The late Prof. Maitland was once asked to explain why Parliamentary Institutions flourished in England but failed to take root in Europe. His answer reveals the importance of shelter. He said the difference was due to the English channel. By this answer what he meant to convey was that by reason of the English channel England was immune from foreign aggression while she was repairing her own body politic, and therefore it became safe for people to fight against their King for Liberty and also safe for the King to allow it to his people. This importance of shelter was also emphasized by Abraham Lincoln. In a speech devoted to showing why American Political Institutions were destined to remain perpetual, Lincoln said:—

    “All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined. . . with a Bonaparte for a Commander, could not by force take a drink from Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years.”
    In this Lincoln was also emphasizing the importance and the necessity for shelter for social reconstruction. India is not a sheltered country as England and America are. She lies across and on the roads, whether the roads are land routes, sea routes, or air routes. As she has no shelter, the fear is that she will be broken up if she is attacked from outside while she is engaged in refitting herself. India needs a dry dock as a shelter for the period of her refitting, and the British Empire is a dry dock for her. Who can say that Ranade was not wise in asking his countrymen to bear in mind the importance of a shelter which the British Empire can give and which India needs so much?“

    • Replies: @Panju
  405. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Franz Fanon wrote about this phenomenon in his book “Black Skin, White Masks” wherein he observed the “overdetermined” behavior of non-White colonial subjects in Western colonies, whether in the Caribbean, in British India or elsewhere.

    I wonder what Fanon would have said about Europeans going Indian and picking up India culture.
    About Europeans doing their best to preserve Indian culture, of protecting Indian monuments, of European colonial officers researching India’s forgotten glorious past, of colonial officers (British & French) enamoured by South Indian classical Music and funding music colleges of traditional Indian music.
    Read the book ‘White Mughals’.
    The truth is it was not trying to be more colonial than the colonials but simple diffusion and interaction of cultures.
    Actually many Islamic Bengali elites only preferred Persian and Arabic or Urdu as their language over their native Bengali. For example, famous Bengali social worker and woman’s right advocate in the Bengali community, Begum Rokeya was the daughter of Jahiruddin Muhammad Abu Ali Haidar Saber, a zamindar and a multi-lingual intellectual, (basically the Bengali Muslim elite). Her elder sister Karimunnesa Khanam Chaudhurani, wanted to study Bengali, the language of her ancestors, against her family’s wish who preferred to use Arabic, Urdu and Persian as the media of education. Her eldest brother Ibrahim Saber taught English and Bengali to Rokeya and Karimunnesa. Karimunnesa would later make sure that her children receive an English education.
    This also hit a raw nerve in united Pakistan when West Pakistan tried imposing Urdu on East Pakistanis and Bengali language movements was the embryo for the eventual demand for independence from West Pakistan.

    The Anglicized Hindu Bengali elites on the other hand, unlike the Bengali Muslim elites, were never ashamed of their own language, indeed the Bengali literature, art and culture flourished in colonial Bengal. They were not ashamed of their own culture as well. They mostly wore Bengali cloths at home but wore Western cloths too and being Hindus were weary of many European foods. Indeed what we consider traditional native Indian cloths with our Sarees such as blouse and petticoat are actually from Europe. But Indians consider them Indian traditional today.

    I also wonder what Fanon would say about the fact that the first Bengali to Sanskrit Dictionary was written by an Englishman. The truth is Europeans living in India too were influenced by Indian culture. What would Fanon say about Hindu Stuart, a British gentleman of the EIC who turned totally Hindu (worshipped Hindu Gods, only at food cooked by Brahmans in the traditional Hindu style) and defended the Hindu faith from missionaries. And there are many like him.

  406. KA says:
    @Malla

    In 1938,Nehru was thinking of eventual independence ,about total separation from the British Raj sometimes around 1975. British was not thinking of granting independence anytime soon even in 1942.

    To Nehru and Ghandhi independence was just a smooth complete intact transition from British to Congress with all the trappings of the Raj . Power would stay with the new elite . Brahmins had nothing to fear from this dispensation .
    Forces beyond imagination of Congress ( and also of Raj) led to the denouement where Britain found itself with no will, no money, no resources and no America’s support ( During WW1 USA imposed its will and asked Indian leaders tom postpone the demand for independence) for the continuation of Raj.Indian mass in 1946 was decidedly against continued occupation and joined the elite in demanding the independence .

  407. Meena says:
    @Malla

    Ksemgupta who ruled Kashmir starting from 950 AD to 958 AD ,burnt Buddhist viharas and used the brass from the images of Buddha .

    In 1089 after killing his brother Harsa captured the throne and ruled Kashmir with recklessness and depravity . To replenish his treasury. he plundered sacred shrines and defiled the statues of the gods .

    In 6 th century Kashmir would be ruled by Mihirgula . A devout Shaiva , he would kill Buddhist , persecute the Buddhist and destroy the monasteries.

    After death of Ashoka, Kashmir was ruled by Jaluka He favored Shaiva and Naga an