The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection$
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 BlogviewPepe Escobar Archive
After Kazakhstan, the Color Revolution Era Is Over
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • B
Show CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The year 2022 started with Kazakhstan on fire, a serious attack against one of the key hubs of Eurasian integration. We are only beginning to understand what and how it happened.

On Monday morning, leaders of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) held an extraordinary session to discuss Kazakhstan.

Kazakh President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev framed it succinctly. Riots were “hidden behind unplanned protests.” The goal was “to seize power” – a coup attempt. Actions were “coordinated from a single center.” And “foreign militants were involved in the riots.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin went further: during the riots, “Maidan technologies were used,” a reference to the Ukranian square where 2013 protests unseated a NATO-unfriendly government.

Defending the prompt intervention of CSTO peacekeeping forces in Kazakhstan, Putin said, “it was necessary to react without delay.” The CSTO will be on the ground “as long as necessary,” but after the mission is accomplished, “of course, the entire contingent will be withdrawn from the country.” Forces are expected to exit later this week.

But here’s the clincher: “CSTO countries have shown that they will not allow chaos and ‘color revolutions’ to be implemented inside their borders.”

Putin was in synch with Kazakh State Secretary Erlan Karin, who was the first, on the record, to apply the correct terminology to events in his country: What happened was a “hybrid terrorist attack,” by both internal and external forces, aimed at overthrowing the government.

The tangled hybrid web

Virtually no one knows about it. But last December, another coup was discreetly thwarted in the Kyrgyz capital, Bishkek. Kyrgyz intel sources attribute the engineering to a rash of NGOs linked with Britain and Turkey. That introduces an absolutely key facet of The Big Picture: NATO-linked intel and their assets may have been preparing a simultaneous color revolution offensive across Central Asia.

On my Central Asia travels in late 2019, pre-Covid, it was plain to see how western NGOs – Hybrid War fronts – remained extremely powerful in both Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Yet, they are just one nexus in a western nebulae of Hybrid War fog deployed across Central Asia, and West Asia for that matter. Here we see the CIA and the US Deep State crisscrossing MI6 and different strands of Turkish intel.

When President Tokayev was referring, in code, to a “single center,” he meant a so far ‘secret’ US-Turk-Israeli military-intel operations room based in the southern business hub of Almaty, according to a highly placed Central Asia intel source. In this “center,” there were 22 Americans, 16 Turks and 6 Israelis coordinating sabotage gangs – trained in West Asia by the Turks – and then rat-lined to Almaty.

The op started to unravel for good when Kazakh forces – with the help of Russian/CSTO intel – retook control of the vandalized Almaty airport, which was supposed to be turned into a hub for receiving foreign military supplies.

The Hybrid War west had to be stunned and livid at how the CSTO intercepted the Kazakh operation at such lightning speed. The key element is that the secretary of Russian National Security Council, Nikolai Patrushev, saw the Big Picture eons ago.

So, it’s no mystery why Russia’s aerospace and aero-transported forces, plus the massive necessary support infrastructure, were virtually ready to go.

Back in November, Patrushev’s laser was already focused on the degrading security situation in Afghanistan. Tajik political scientist Parviz Mullojanov was among the very few who were stressing that there were as many as 8,000 imperial machine Salafi-jihadi assets, shipped by a rat line from Syria and Iraq, loitering in the wilds of northern Afghanistan.

That’s the bulk of ISIS-Khorasan – or ISIS reconstituted near the borders of Turkmenistan. Some of them were duly transported to Kyrgyzstan. From there, it was very easy to cross the border from Bishek and show up in Almaty.

It took no time for Patrushev and his team to figure out, after the imperial retreat from Kabul, how this jihadi reserve army would be used: along the 7,500 km-long border between Russia and the Central Asian ‘stans’.

That explains, among other things, a record number of preparation drills conducted in late 2021 at the 210th Russian military base in Tajikistan.

James Bond speaks Turkish

The breakdown of the messy Kazakh op necessarily starts with the usual suspects: the US Deep State, which all but “sang” its strategy in a 2019 RAND corporation report, Extending Russia. Chapter 4, on “geopolitical measures”, details everything from “providing lethal aid to Ukraine”, “promoting regime change in Belarus”, and “increasing support for Syrian rebels” – all major fails – to “reducing Russian influence in Central Asia.”

That was the master concept. Implementation fell to the MI6-Turk connection.

The CIA and MI6 had been investing in dodgy outfits in Central Asia since at least 2005, when they encouraged the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU), then close to the Taliban, to wreak havoc in southern Kyrgyzstan. Nothing happened.

It was a completely different story by May 2021, when the MI6’s Jonathan Powell met the leadership of Jabhat al-Nusra – which harbors a lot of Central Asian jihadis – somewhere in the Turkish-Syrian border near Idlib. The deal was that these ‘moderate rebels’ – in US terminology – would cease to be branded ‘terrorists’ as long as they followed the anti-Russia NATO agenda.

That was one of the key prep moves ahead of the jihadist ratline to Afghanistan – complete with Central Asia branching out.

The genesis of the offensive should be found in June 2020, when former ambassador to Turkey from 2014 to 2018, Richard Moore, was appointed head of MI6. Moore may not have an inch of Kim Philby’s competence, but he does fit the profile: rabid Russophobe, and a cheerleader of the Great Turania fantasy, which promotes a pan-Turk confederation of Turkic-speaking peoples from West Asia and the Caucasus to Central Asia and even Russian republics in the Volga.

MI6 is deeply entrenched in all the ‘stans’ except autarchic Turkmenistan – cleverly riding the pan-Turkist offensive as the ideal vehicle to counter Russia and China.

ORDER IT NOW

Erdogan himself has been invested on a hardcore Great Turania offensive, especially after the creation of the Turkic Council in 2009. Crucially, next March, the summit of the Confederation Council of Turkic-speaking States – the new Turkic Council denomination – will take place in Kazakhstan. The city of Turkestan, in southern Kazakhstan, is expected to be named as the spiritual capital of the Turkic world.

And here, the ‘Turkic world’ enters into a frontal clash with the integrating Russian concept of Greater Eurasia Partnership, and even with the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) that, crucially, does not count Turkey as a member.

Erdogan’s short term ambition seems at first to be only commercial: after Azerbaijan won the Karabakh war, he expects to use Baku to get access to Central Asia via the Caspian Sea, complete with Turkey’s industrial-military complex sales of military technology to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

Turkish companies are already investing heavily in real estate and infrastructure. And in parallel, Ankara’s soft power is on overdrive, finally collecting the fruits of exercising a lot of pressure, for instance, to speed up the transition in Kazakhstan from Cyrillic script to the Latin alphabet, starting in 2023.

Yet both Russia and China are very much aware that Turkey essentially represents NATO entering Central Asia. The organization of Turkic states are cryptically called the Kazakh operation ‘fuel protests’.

It’s all very murky. Erdogan’s neo-Ottomanism – which comes with massive cheerleading by his Muslim Brotherhood base – essentially has nothing to do with the pan-Turanic drive, which is a racialist movement predicating domination by relatively ‘pure’ Turks.

The problem is that they are converging while becoming more extreme, with Turkey’s right-wing Grey Wolves deeply implicated. That explains why Ankara intel is a sponsor and, in many cases, a weaponizer of both the ISIS-Khorasan franchise and those Turan racists, from Bosnia to Xinjiang via Central Asia.

The Empire handsomely profits from this toxic association, in Armenia, for instance. And the same would happen in Kazakhstan if the operation is successful.

Bring on the Trojan Horses

Every color revolution needs a ‘Maximum’ Trojan Horse. In our case, that seems to be the role of former head of KNB (National Security Committee) Karim Massimov, now held in prison and charged with treason.

Hugely ambitious, Massimov is half-Uyghur and that, in theory, obstructed what he saw as his pre-ordained rise to power. His connections with Turkish intel are not yet fully detailed, unlike his cozy relationship with Joe Biden and son.

A former Minister of Internal Affairs and State Security, Lt Gen Felix Kulov, has weaved a fascinating tangled web explaining the possible internal dynamics of the ‘coup’ built into the color revolution.

According to Kulov, Massimov and Samir Abish, the nephew of recently ousted Kazakh Security Council Chairman Nursultan Nazarbayev, were up to their necks in supervising ‘secret’ units of ‘bearded men’ during the riots. The KNB was directly subordinated to Nazarbayev, who until last week was the chairman of the Security Council.

When Tokayev understood the mechanics of the coup, he demoted both Massimov and Samat Abish. Then Nazarbayev ‘voluntarily’resigned from his life-long chairmanship of the Security Council. Abish then got this post, promising to stop the ‘bearded men,’and then to resign.

So that would point directly to a Nazarbayev-Tokayev clash. It makes sense as during his 29-year rule, Nazarbayev played a multi-vector game that was too westernized and which did not necessarily benefit Kazakhstan. He adopted British laws, played the pan-Turkic card with Erdogan, and allowed a tsunami of NGOs to promote an Atlanticist agenda.

Tokayev is a very smart operator. Trained by the foreign service of the former USSR, fluent in Russian and Chinese, he is totally aligned with Russia-China – which means fully in sync with the masterplan of BRI, the Eurasia Economic Union and the SCO.

Tokayev, much like Putin and Xi, understands how this BRI/EAEU/SCO triad represents the ultimate imperial nightmare, and how destabilizing Kazakhstan – a key actor in the triad – would be a mortal coup against Eurasian integration.

Kazakhstan, after all, represents 60 percent of Central Asia’s GDP, massive oil/gas and mineral resources, cutting-edge high tech industries: a secular, unitary, constitutional republic bearing a rich cultural heritage.

It didn’t take long for Tokayev to understand the merits of immediately calling the CSTO to the rescue: Kazakhstan signed the treaty way back in 1994. After all, Tokayev was fighting a foreign-led coup against his government.

Putin, among others, has stressed how an official Kazakh investigation is the only one entitled to get to the heart of the matter. It’s still unclear exactly who – and to what extent – sponsored the rioting mobs. Motives abound: to sabotage a pro-Russia/China government, to provoke Russia, to sabotage BRI, to plunder mineral resources, to turbo-charge a House of Saud-style ‘Islamization’.

Rushed to only a few days before the start of the Russia-US ‘security guarantees’ in Geneva, this color revolution represented a sort of counter-ultimatum – in desperation – by the NATO establishment.

Central Asia, West Asia, and the overwhelming majority of the Global South have witnessed the lightning fast Eurasian response by the CSTO troops – who, having now done their job, are set to leave Kazakhstan in a couple of days – and how this color revolution has failed, miserably.

It might as well be the last. Beware the rage of a humiliated Empire.

(Republished from The Cradle by permission of author or representative)
 
Hide 273 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. Those folks live in a tough neighborhood. I trust them to police it themselves, making common cause as needed (mutual aid, so to speak) and avoiding all uninvited “assistance. Since I am entirely unable to discern truth and fiction from 8,000 miles away, I can honestly wish them well, and advise them to ignore the US and all their punk-ass “allies”.

    • Agree: Bro43rd, Alternate History, W
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  2. More like Dollar Revolution

    And it will never be over until ZioGlob is over

  3. This article is already well out of date, though just posted. As the knowledgeable and connected Russian “the same deer” posted on TG: “The hasty farewell of the CSTO troops and the scandalous decision of Tokayev to appoint the most rabid Kazakh Russophobe Askar Umarov as the Minister of Information Policy, for many “Kazakh experts” who had almost drawn new maps with North Kazakhstan as part of Russia, turned out to be unpleasant surprises, but not for “Deer”: No sooner had the CSTO troops left Kazakhstan than an experienced diplomat Tokayev, who had passed the “UN universities”, showed the above-mentioned master class on multi-vector, and announced the appointment of the main “preacher of Russophobia” and persona non grata in Russia to the key post of Minister of Information Policy Askara Umarova. The very Pan-Turkist Umarov, who earned a ban on entry to Russia by his ebullient activities, oversaw the “language patrols” that humiliated and insulted Russian speakers, disparagingly called the Russians “Russnya”, “imposed by the diaspora” and “colonialists”, denying them their basic rights , urged not to celebrate the “incomprehensible” Victory Day in the Second World War, calling it a “foreign war”, and issued a “modern map of Kazakhstan” with the annexed Russian territories. Umarov’s statements should not be surprised – he is an agent of Turkey and Britain.”

  4. Richard B says:

    What happened was a “hybrid terrorist attack,” by both internal and external forces, aimed at overthrowing the government.

    That’s pretty much the Zio-Communist Template, or Jewish Supremacy Inc. Template. Zionism from the top, Communism from the bottom. Basically it’s the same thing.

    Douglas Reed was one of the very first to call it out for what it was in his masterpiece The Controversy of Zion. https://www.unz.com/book/douglas_reed__the-controversy-of-zion/ Though the book wasn’t finished until 1956 and wasn’t published until 1978, the real beginning of it all for him was in the late 30’s, early 40’s.

    It’s also worth pointing out that he was the highest paid and most respected journalist in the world at the time. That is, right up until he started, well, noticing things and, being a man of integrity, reporting on them. Soon after he became a non-person.

    Making him the last great journalist in the world.

    • Thanks: Fart Blossom, W
  5. I would have said Syria. But one was tried in Nicaragua and Venezuela as well – but they failed on their own ineptness. Libya was the last straw which is why Russia stepped in during the attempt in Syria. A color revolution was tried in Hong Kong too… Military didnt even have to get involved. The police managed it until withna stroke of a pen a National Security Law crushed it and sent CIA and MI6 agents and most of their collaborators on the first planes out of there.
    So all around it appears governments are getting hip to it. Ethiopia is getting help to to quash their US backed Tigray rebels… They have handled it so well they got themselves and even Eritrea sanctioned by the US.

    But in this case – again it baffles the mind of why Erdogan keeps Turkey in NATO. Makes no sense on any level. I guess if his Pan Turkism fails (which really makes no sense for any of those countries) I guess being in NATO is a fall back. He is playing a dangerous game though. There is a proverb in the Caribbean about a dog that has too many yards goes to its bed hungry.

    • Replies: @Notsofast
    , @PJ London
  6. Franz says:

    CSTO seems a good idea. NATO should have died quietly and peacefully in the mid-90s, instead we are stuck with this expensive and dangerous cuckoo — bastard child of World War II paranoia + bankers stirring the pot to enrich their bottom line.

    So Russia had to come up with what amounts to the anti-NATO. Americans were far more prosperous and sane in the Balance of Power days. It’s too soon to say Putin brought it back; but however many trys and fails it takes, I hope he keeps at it.

    • Agree: follyofwar
  7. It’s all very murky.

    If Mr. Escobar sees the situation that way, despite his long experience and many contacts, imagine how bad it would be for the rest of us when all we have is the Neocon Corporate Media.

    A very nice and educational essay.

    • Replies: @sally
  8. Why would Britain need Nazerbaev out of the country? He was all but an MI6 agent himself.

    • Replies: @Old Brown Fool
  9. I say we call it the Challah Revolution. It’s Jewish Power trying to bake you into something it can swallow.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challah

  10. Notsofast says:
    @Showmethereal

    add erdogan to the list of failed coups. when obama tried and failed to coup erdogan, he used it as an opportunity to lock up all his opposition and to change the term limits giving himself unlimited power for a decade. erdogan would stab his own grandmother in the back if it gave him political advantage and is playing all sides against the middle. he stays in nato so he can pull his dirty tricks and no one can respond for fear of nato backing him. he keeps nato at bay by threatening to close incirlik and then where will they keep their nukes? so he buys s400 systems from russia so nato can’t override it and it gets him out of the boondoggle f35 money pit. he’s a devious bastard and someday he’ll go too far but until then he will screw anybody that he can.

  11. Yee says:

    US/UK encourage or help Turkey operating in Central Asia because introducing a new power is a sure way to brew instability in the region.

    The Central Asian ruling elite are either stupid enough to play the balance of power game in their owm country, with players they can’t control, or, they play along because their ill gotten gain are stacked in Europe or New York. They care more about personal gain than their country.

    • Agree: Avery
  12. @mutthead52

    Yes that unfortunately is the correct picture of events. The United Kikedom has been meddling economically and politically in Kazakhstan for so long that these events should have came as no surprise. The “coup” was the next step in a process that had long ago begun. The bogus “republic” has long been in “Western” hands. They just needed a simple formality to begin the next stage of heightened Russophobia/Western cannibalization. Likewise, there’s no reason to expect the “Russian” Federation, ran by a bunch of Wall Street’s sycophants to intervene in any meaningful way, much like they abandoned the people of the Don Basin to get massacred by Puke-ranian artillery. The islands that “Japan” wants (American-bullied Japanese leaders, that is) will also be meekly given away as will all of the remaining bogus republics. See, the West has to digest its food slowly, piecemeal. They like to devour these little republics one by one. Enjoy being guinea pigs for Amerikkka’s biological weapons, little Khazars or Kazakhs or whatever you are.

    • Replies: @Zachary Smith
    , @Levtraro
  13. @paul 49512

    Enjoy being guinea pigs for Amerikkka’s biological weapons, little Khazars or Kazakhs or whatever you are.

    You may have been using this as a “figure of speech”, but unfortunately there appears to be some actual truth in the “guinea pig” part.

    Why is Kazakhstan a sought-after partner? Simply put, the country provides unique access to ethnic Russian and Chinese groups as “specimens” for conducting field research involving highly pathogenic potential biological-warfare agents. Kazakhstan has 13,364 kilometers of borders with its neighboring countries Russia, China, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.

    According to the link, the US of A has a genuine bio-war lab in Kazakhstan. Lots of locals you can use to “test” your new discoveries.

    Kazakhstan becomes toxic graveyard for US diplomacy
    https://asiatimes.com/2022/01/kazakhstan-becomes-toxic-graveyard-for-us-diplomacy/

    • Thanks: Sarah
  14. It may not have been a sincere regime change effort but rather an attempt to make trouble and stir things up.

    I think back to that short-lived Bolivia regime change: Morales was forced out in 2019, then returned in 2020. It was more of a warning than anything else.

    I agree the color revolution tactic isn’t going to work anymore – if they keep going for these half-baked efforts, it will just give CSTO more practice in countering efforts and tactical development.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  15. Miro23 says:

    Yet both Russia and China are very much aware that Turkey essentially represents NATO entering Central Asia. The organization of Turkic states are cryptically called the Kazakh operation ‘fuel protests’.

    Turkey’s role is very odd. At one point, Erdogan was almost “regime changed” by the US ZioGlob sponsored Gulenists. After the failed coup, Gulenists were cleared out of power, but he then seems to have decided to become an Islamic Imperialist – rebuilding the Ottoman Empire and challenging Russia – who he’s also buying weaponry from in preference to the US? So the Empire are still using him against Russia?

    The only firm ground seems to be the economic logic driving Kazakhstan towards China’s Belt and Road Initiative (and away from the ZioGlob Empire). This says that Erdogan and the various CIA/MI6 spooks and their Islamists are on the wrong side of the historic trend.

    Also, what is NATO doing in Central Asia allied with Islamists and Ottoman Imperialists? Western European states would be well advised to avoid trouble and clear out of this organization.

  16. A🧐 says:
    @Notsofast

    Turks have been masters at this for a while, I think it comes with the territory due to the central location they inhabit. They were able to brilliantly sit it out in WW2 and get concessions and gifts from both sides in order to stay out of the conflict. I think they got plenty of military equipment like tanks out of the Allies and I remember reading that Germany was going to potentially offer them sovereignty over the Turkic populations of Russia – had that campaign gone successfully.

    • Replies: @Old Brown Fool
  17. Al Ross says:

    Poor Kazakhstan . No CIA – imposed democracy for you.

    You don’t get the CIA’s ‘Free World’ ordure, historically exemplified by Batista , Noriega , Syngman Rhee , Nguyen Van Thieu and Suharto

    • Agree: mulga mumblebrain
  18. Why should I not be sceptical of anything asserted as a possibly important fact by Pepe Escobar? Why should I not infer that he makes a nice living and travels to interesting places by accepting what he is fed by (in this instance) the Russians? How do I check to see if there is confirmation of what I intuit and infer? Well, I picked on the description of Jonathan Powell as “the MI6’s Jonathan Powell”. Nope, straight from Pepe’s Russian sources. It is not too difficult to see why the Russians decided that was an easy line to use on lazy suckers like Pepe. Powell had been stupidly indiscreet many years before when, after years close to Tony Blair as his Chief of Staff and therefore knowledgeable about security matters, he divulged in an interview that MI6 had been caught using a fake rock to hide a transmitter in Moscow. I’m afraid it just adds to the weight of pro Russian bias on UR. Why there should be such bias is probably explained by there being far more potential pro Eussian propagandists than Ukrainian, Georgian or whatever, together with Ron Unz’s willingness to believe, on a subject of which he knows little, people whose line is anti neocon rather than the reverse.

  19. Levtraro says:
    @paul 49512

    Lol! paul 49512 with 1 comment replies to mutthead52 with 7 comments agreeing with himself.

    • Agree: Peter Rabbit
  20. antibeast says:

    It might as well be the last. Beware the rage of a humiliated Empire.

    This attempted coup cum terrorist attack may have failed miserably due to the stunning decision of Tokayev to invoke Article 4 of the CSTO which promptly dispatched CSTO troops to Kazakhstan in order to squash the domestic insurrectionists and foreign jihadists in less than a week.

    My guess is that it won’t be the last.

    The US Deep State has been working on unleashing the ISIS-K onto the Central Asian region since the latter’s founding in 2015. Right before the US/NATO troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, Russia started organizing joint military exercises in adjoining Tajikistan in preparation for terrorist attacks by foreign jihadists from Iraq/Syria which form the bulk of ISIS-K. After the last US troops finally left Kabul, there was a sudden rash of terrorist attacks in Afghanistan days before and weeks thereafter, all claimed by ISIS-K. This group of foreign jihadists have apparently regrouped in Almaty in the last few months since the Taliban takeover.

    So this was the secret backup plan drawn up by the Biden Administration to turn Kazakhstan into another Ukraine. That would explain why the US Deep State agreed to the US troop withdrawal from Kabul so they could move into Kazakhstan, after their planned regime change has toppled Tokayev this Winter, as a Christmas present to Putin, just in time for the scheduled US-Russia talks on the future of NATO in Europe.

    Now everything makes sense to the US Deep State: why bother with Afghanistan when they could get Kazakhstan? So the plan was hatched: Western financial hit-men inflate natural gas prices while Western NGOs organize the mass protests against rising prices. In the meantime, wait for the riots to break out and then unleash the terrorist attacks, a la Maidan, in time for the planned coup attempt against Tokayev.

    The US Deep State must be feeling the blues this Winter as their ill-executed plot has failed.

    Let’s see what they plan to do next.

    • Thanks: emerging majority
    • Replies: @Nancy
    , @mulga mumblebrain
  21. anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    The intervening CSTO troops in Kazakhstan are from 5 nations:
    Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan
    3 Christian ones and 2 Muslim ones

    Kazakhstan is 72% Muslim, and resentments against Christian ‘invaders’ will in time escalate, as with, e.g., Osama bin Laden and many others detesting Christian boots on the ground in Saudi Arabia in the Kuwait-Iraq wars

    The Muslim world’s sense of itself against non-Muslims, however divided, will not be papered over by Escobar’s vision of a Russia-China-led ‘new world order’

    After Putin is gone, the Chechen situation may well explode, as it seems the Chechens were not allowed to leave the post-Soviet Russian space, so that Russia could continue to earn the revenues from oil and gas in Chechnya and Dagestan … Chechens keep long memories

    Many feel that false flags blaming ‘Muslim terrorists’ were conducted by Russia during the 1990s, in order to keep its Muslim but oil-rich territories … and that THIS was the model for 9-11

    Putin supports the official USA 9-11 story … and the USA keeps quiet about possible false flags by Russia re the Chechens

    And of course China has its problems with its large Muslim minority, well-known throughout the Muslim world

    • LOL: frontier
  22. windship says:

    NATO and all it’s secret agents are like a demented old fool who keeps poking a stick into a hornets’ nest, and then blaming the hornets when they get pissed off and sting him.

    How much pain can the old fool take?

    • Replies: @Fred777
    , @Badger Down
  23. Mikhail says: • Website
    @mutthead52

    This article is already well out of date, though just posted. As the knowledgeable and connected Russian “the same deer” posted on TG: “The hasty farewell of the CSTO troops and the scandalous decision of Tokayev to appoint the most rabid Kazakh Russophobe Askar Umarov as the Minister of Information Policy, for many “Kazakh experts” who had almost drawn new maps with North Kazakhstan as part of Russia, turned out to be unpleasant surprises, but not for “Deer”: No sooner had the CSTO troops left Kazakhstan than an experienced diplomat Tokayev, who had passed the “UN universities”, showed the above-mentioned master class on multi-vector, and announced the appointment of the main “preacher of Russophobia” and persona non grata in Russia to the key post of Minister of Information Policy Askara Umarova. The very Pan-Turkist Umarov, who earned a ban on entry to Russia by his ebullient activities, oversaw the “language patrols” that humiliated and insulted Russian speakers, disparagingly called the Russians “Russnya”, “imposed by the diaspora” and “colonialists”, denying them their basic rights , urged not to celebrate the “incomprehensible” Victory Day in the Second World War, calling it a “foreign war”, and issued a “modern map of Kazakhstan” with the annexed Russian territories. Umarov’s statements should not be surprised – he is an agent of Turkey and Britain.”

    Umarov was called out on that and claims that he has been misrepresented:

    https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2022-01-12-new-minister-of-information-of-kazakhstan-umarov-responded-to-accusations-of-russophobia.S1-RrtBhnY.html

    Maybe he’s a go with the flow Machiavellian type, willing to dump a cause for personal gain?

  24. KAZAKHSTAN SECURED. PUTIN COMPARES IT TO MAIDAN 2014



    Video Link

    • Replies: @republic
  25. Sarah says:
    @mutthead52

    From Mikhael, nr 23 :

    Umarov was called out on that and claims that he has been misrepresented :
    https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2022-01-12-new-minister-of-information-of-kazakhstan-umarov-responded-to-accusations-of-russophobia.S1-RrtBhnY.html
    Maybe he’s a go with the flow Machiavellian type, willing to dump a cause for personal gain?

    What matters is that a man does, especially a politician, rather than what he says, let alone what others say about him.
    Wait and see.
    If you read the linked article, note that the critic of the new information minister posted his attacks on Fakebook😏

  26. @Notsofast

    Thanks for the reminder… I forgot about the failed coup in Turkey also.

  27. @PDXLibertarian

    Well it only failed in Bolivia because the idiots behind it in their calls for “democracy” didnt realize the people loved him so in the next election – overwhelmingly put his party candidate back in power – which is how he was able to return. In the past in Latin America they would just install a dictator to do US/Western bidding. But now it looks bad – so their regime changes end up like flailing fish

  28. antibeast says:
    @anonymous

    Kazakhstan is 72% Muslim, and resentments against Christian ‘invaders’ will in time escalate, as with, e.g., Osama bin Laden and many others detesting Christian boots on the ground in Saudi Arabia in the Kuwait-Iraq wars.

    Seven decades of Sovietization have ‘de-Islamicized’ Kazakhs so much that they are ‘MINOs’ – ‘Muslims in Name Only’ — when compared to fanatical Arab, Afghan or Iranian Muslims. While there had been tensions between Kazakhs and Russians in the past, that was ethnic not religious in character. Their main gripe today is the socio-economic inequality in their country.

    By the way, the Kazakhs are Turco-Mongolic tribes descended from the Golden Horde of Batu Khan who worshipped Tengri but became Muslims after the Timur conquest. So the Kazakhs view Tengrism — not the Arab religion of Islam — as their one true native religion which the Kazakh nationalists want to revive, along with their native Kazakh language. Contrary to your view, modern Kazakhs today view those radical Islamists with contempt and hostility which is why they don’t want to have anything to do with Muslim Arabs as they have more in common with Turco-Mongolic tribes such as the Yakuts and Tuvans in Siberia.

    • Thanks: dogbumbreath
    • Replies: @A🧐
  29. Eudion2 says:

    I’m gloomy in the long term. Globalism for all its incompetence, is a collective entity that is essentially immortal. Putin has effectively stood against it, but he is only a mortal man with perhaps ten good years, barring assassination. The long run does not look good. What comes after Putin? I sense a power vacuum.

  30. Ross23 says:

    In order to be impervious to color revolutions you need to create a political class ready to take over once the person at the top has been shot in the head.

    The US China and USSR all had this

    Russia is on the way to have this but not quite there yet

    The Stans don’t have this so are vulnerable to further attempts.

    It doesn’t appear they have leaned their lesson either the Russians are going home, they still have western backed people in positions of power and NGOs ready to corrupt the youth.

    Remember Russia was invited in.

    When the next attempt happens and the leader is killed , flees or is jailed, they won’t be invited, they’ll have to invade by which time the new western backed leader will have control of the state and armed forces and be able to shout to the world “the Russians are coming”.

    Just like what happened in Ukraine all over again.

    So until the next time

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  31. The Turk connection with Perfidious Albion + USA/NATO goes some way to explaining Erdogan’s snotty attitude toward Russia. I thought Putin would have taken a hard line with that upstart after shooting down that Su-24, but no …

    Perhaps Perfidious has given him unconditional guarantees like Poland in 1939, still playing the Great Game, no dirty trick too low.
    Surprising even a low-life like the Dog would partner with Perfidious with its centuries-long reputation, maybe a meeting of like minds …

    ZUSA is a lumbering and murderous golem, not very clever or efficient but Mr Rothschild’s Square Mile with its controlled “govt”/Tavistock/MI5-6/”universities” is the locus of true undiluted evil, posing as harmless antique Monty Python.
    Still, Mrs Windsor can’t have long to go … the rest of the Firm are dross and the garden-party bullshit facade must finally fall soon.

    • Replies: @Mehool Mehta
  32. Color Revolutions have a lot of working parts and hence vulnerabilities.

    The ‘Bay of Pigs’ guerrilla training camps can be preemptively infiltrated and and so can NGO local partners.

  33. PJ London says:
    @Showmethereal

    “…. baffles the mind of why Erdogan keeps Turkey in NATO.”
    Why would he leave?
    There is no benefit in leaving NATO, it would not draw him closer to Russia or China, neither of whom trust him in the least.
    It would alienate him from Europe whose trade he desperately needs. It would make his EU border much more difficult as he shovels ‘refugees’ into the EU.
    He would lose the protection of NATO and when he next pisses off Russia, which is always only a matter of time, no one would come to help him.
    He would lose the USA keeping most of the Kurds from chopping into Turkey and starting a real war.
    Erdogan is an untrustworthy ambitious little idiot, but he is not that stupid.
    Russia is happy he is in power as the next guy could be competent.

  34. PJ London says:
    @Eudion2

    Could you please support the statement Globalism is essentially immortal.
    I can think of no reason to justify such a statement.
    Humans are tribal and Nationalism / Tribalism has been the primary social dynamic for the last 13,000 years.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  35. @Philip Owen

    Because there are always newer and better stooges, willing to take even less.

  36. @A🧐

    And they were ready to march on the underbelly of USSR when it was in a death grip with the Third Reich. Stalin was ready to repay the kindness once the WWII was over, so Turkey had to rush under the American nuclear umbrella.

    • Replies: @A🧐
  37. Anonymous[767] • Disclaimer says:

    We don’t have enough STANS that we’re going to have yet another stan, Turanicstan. When will it all stop?

  38. @anonymous

    Pakistan was the first country to be explicitly formed based on Islam; till it came along, Muslim countries were all clear in their understanding that their religious affiliation needed to be kept firmly aside from their science, technology and polity. Muslim countries were trying to ‘modernize’ in every way. Turkey was the leader; Arabs were keen to follow; and the -Stans were firmly inside the USSR, with no signs of any Muslim heartburn or resurgence.

    Things started going the Islamic fanaticism way only after Americans decided to support the Muslim Brotherhood, as Baathists were supposedly pro Soviet. Then the establishment of Israel in 1948, the Iranian counter-coup of 1953, etc encouraged the rise of a radical Islam; finally Saudi and other Aran princes decided to incite a radical Wahhabism to stop people from questioning their rule. And then came Afghanistan and Ronald Reagan… Then came the Jihadis, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Daesh…

    Muslims were slowly trying to join the rest of the world in science, society, economy and polity, till America started inciting Islamic fundamentalism as a short-sighted policy.

    • Agree: dogbumbreath
    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  39. Again no mention of the incredible Covid terror regime of the Tokajew.
    That triggered the protests in the first place!

    If Pepe Escobar is not on salary with RT it would be injustice.
    PeEs deserves RT paychecks.
    But that would be unjust with the Russian people.
    The beneficiaries – the Synagoges of East & West – the tieves in law – should pay for fine narratives supporting their East-West-BS while they are stealing and melking the peoples wealth and lifelyhood left, right and center.

    https://uncutnews.ch/der-falsche-prophet-fuehrt-die-russen-in-die-digitale-sklaverei/

    https://360tv.ru/news/zdorove/shukshina-razgljadela/?utm_source=smi2&utm_medium=exch&utm_campaign=news&utm_term=2018

    https://iz.ru/1275003/2022-01-10/vasserman-ukazal-na-popytki-sdelat-iz-kazakhstana-ukrainu?utm_source=smi2

  40. Isn’t the Biden administration’s primary goal to complete of the left’s Cloward Piven Strategy? Seems like it is. If so, any international color flag revolution should be seen as a provocation that eventually leads to the US’ final defeat. In other words the world is the stage for the penultimate color flag revolution targeting the US.

  41. Bro43rd says:

    Wouldn’t surprise me if this was all just a distraction. Not sure what it was distracting us from which is a big reason I think it is. Maybe the US/ZioGlobo has more corona terrorism in the works. Or possibly to get their hands on the Russian s-400 defense systems to reverse engineer them. Just not sure but if I’m right we should know soon.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  42. It’s going to be a hard slog for the Russians, regardless how tough ISIS becomes in this region. With or without intelligence support, the real issue is the Turks (or Turkic people) are a majority population ruled by a Russian over-class and they will eventually win control of this region. It’s not a ‘color’ revolution per se, rather a racial one.

  43. aandrews says:

    Guerrilla war exercise to be fought across rural North Carolina counties, Army warns
    Mark Price, The Charlotte Observer – Monday

    CHARLOTTE, N.C. — A “realistic” guerrilla war will be fought across two dozen North Carolina counties in the coming weeks, with young soldiers battling seasoned “freedom fighters,” according to the U.S. Army.

  44. @mutthead52

    And for the record, Umarov, Askar Kuanyshevich. Born on June 30, 1976 in Alma-Ata. Kazakh by nationality. Graduated from Turan University. Trained in Poland and Israel.

  45. Che Guava says:

    Initially, I was just wanting to thank M. Escobar for some rare (of late) good news, the failure of two ‘colour revolutions’. I had not even heard of the Kyrghiz one.

    So, informative.

    Much as I like his writing, even when not agreeing on occasion, there is too much of it here. If I were his editor, I would be asking him to break it into about four articles.

    So just a few random points, M. Escobar doesn’t read comments here anyway.

    Erdogan staged a coup against himself, not too many years ago, of course, many of the participants were dupes, it was so pathetic, clearly coordinated by his party and police state, just to cement his theatrical grip on power.

    It sure wasn’t a ‘colour revolution’, and I hate to say it, but it was politically a good move for the clown Erdogan, no doubt suggested by advisors who have far greater intelligence than he.

    Kim Philby was not as clever as you say. Sure, he did fewer stupid things than Burgess and McLean, but the only thing that kept him going until his early 1950s escape from Lebanon to the USSR was his class status and connections.

    He even married a former OSS worker, presumably CIA by that time, she published an account of it, The Spy I Loved, it is entertaining, and truthful re. events before their separation.

    So, Philby was a grand patsy of the U.S.A. while living a luxurious life in the U.S.S.R.

  46. Poco says:

    I’m just glad both sides are tracking vaccination status and disallowing the unvaccinated from taking part in society.

  47. A🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    Plenty of studies have shown both a steady rise in islamic character of the Kazakh people (while also making a distinction that they are not very happy with Salafis making inroads into the region) since the fall of communism. The elites have had to take account of this and tried to co-opt it in some way or another by trying to emphasize the ethnic nature of the Muslim identity.

    Tengrism seems to have some sort of syncretic influence mostly into folk Sufi practices and mostly in the more remote and rural areas – not unlike syncretic animism in the peripheries of much of the various Muslim countries. It also seems to have made more headway into art and symbolic imagery as well as return of some shaman healing practices. Realistically, it probably has less of a chance of standing on its own than Rodnovery in Russia.

    Just search for something like “islamic revival in Kazakhstan” and plenty of academic papers come up explaining the various dynamics.

  48. A🧐 says:
    @Old Brown Fool

    Yup, they’d played the game to the end – basically officially declaring war on Germany when it was obvious it was completely against the ropes. And immediately joining NATO soon after – they know how to survive. Germany also wanted to use their territory to pass through to reinforce the resistance in Iraq against the British take over and choking of the oil fields, but Turkey never committed. Many neutral nations made out well during the war, but most were on the periphery like Portugal and Spain or Sweden, but the Turks were able to make money supplying material to the Germans while getting war materials from the Allies in order to not ally with Germany. As far as strategy is concerned, it was impressive – they knew from the first war that making the wrong decision at the wrong time could cost you a fortune in territory.

    • Replies: @Colonel Dolma
  49. @PJ London

    I can’t speak for anyone else but I believe that the word “globalism” is often a euphemism for the Satanic, messianic, judeo-communist “new world order”; the world-wide imposition of which is the object of the spiritual war being waged against all humanity by Satan and Satan’s agents in the physical realm. IOW this madness isn’t just the result of a few evil crackpots in high places and is therefore not some temporary thing that the world can wait out.

    • Replies: @HeebHunter
  50. sally says:
    @Zachary Smith

    The “Russian” Federation, represents Wall Street in Russian Territories.. .. imagine how bad it would be for the rest of us when all we have is the Neocon Corporate Media.

    The day of the Neocon Corporate Media is almost global and already here.. Think Covid 19, and go backward from there.

    The media is a mind control resource which is able to catalyze exposure or suppress exposure of narrative of
    events, happenings,etc. in whatever place such control is necessary. .. The underlying chemistry that produces event and program results, happens inside the investees of centralized holding companies (Vanguard and Black Rock investment ownership in 1600+ interlocked corporations come to mind, but there are others)

    These copyright monopoly, patent monopoly and government tax extraction contracting monopoly powerhouses can transfer privately owned monopoly powers, operations expertise, legal help and machinery need to do the job anywhere, anytime, when needed. This trio: media, distributed monopoly power, and instant capacity to provision allows private interest to widely explode and distribute, or concentrate their wealth, power, and influence into all coordinates and along all radials at the same time. Few governments can track or follow change in direction of intentions of the privately owned, wealth endowments until after they make whatever they plan to happen.

    Humanity has been captured into a privately owned world, and the private world has encased humanity into 256 different nation states where they can mold us, and force us.. private interest off loads the heavy work to the governments that control and regulate the masses.

    .

    • Agree: Maowasayali
    • Replies: @frontier
    , @nosquat loquat
  51. barr says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I almost forgot this part :MI6 had been caught using a fake rock to hide a transmitter in Moscow.

    Thanks for resurrecting the memory .

    It goes both ways .

    Link-
    Fake rock used to spy on Russians is part of a long game

    Britain and Russia have used James Bond-style bugs and double agents to keep tabs on each other for years https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/19/fake-rock-spy-russia-britain


    At the moment we dont know what going on In Kazhakistan other than the knowledge of the troops be soon leaving . It is possible that whole thing is clan affairs ,a tribal fight .But By signing up for Putin’s orbit ,thieves from Kazhakistan will for a while have problem in storing the riches in Jersey or St Kitts.
    USA after Ukraine with colorful and changing spins is sorted out by the media ,will try its hands again in Central Asia . It might have no recourse but to try Pakistan and Afghanistan again . But that presupposes India and China remain enemy despite Pakistan -Afghan ’s tilting back to Western plans.

  52. Anonymous[978] • Disclaimer says:

    The organization of Turkic states are cryptically called the Kazakh operation ‘fuel protests’.

    That whole sentence is cryptic to me.

  53. teo toon says:
    @Priss Factor

    Agree.
    It is amazing how all during the Cold was the Left was howling about the USSR’s “sphere of influence;” but, now, the Left has no problem with putting the Empire right up to the Russian border; it’ almost as if something changed with who now controls Russia.

  54. @Wizard of Oz

    The enemy of my enemy is not my enemy. If Russia and China are actually standing up against the Bank\$ter controlled puppet regimes in the Di\$trict of Corruption and in Whitehall; then they could not possibly be my enemies.

    It’s all really quite simple: The “West” is ruled uncontestably by the Central Bank\$ters and their various minions and puppets. Currently, the U\$ is a Puppet Regime. These are facts. Anyone feel obliged to dispute? Be my guest.

    • Agree: Daniel Rich
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  55. Colour revolutions are since Cromwell ongoing and relentless…
    Jelzman-Putin; the continuos colour revolution under the auspices of the thieves in law (Moskoviter chapter) who refuse to pay to many monopoly-fines to the other thieves in law (western chapters). The Israel thieves in law play all chapters (incl. Rome) as needed greeded.

    Why do Russians have to pay 8,5 % interest? Whose “interests”?!
    Why do Russians have to pay tax since just the oil income is bigger than the federal budget?!

    Every war / revolution is a Jewish sucker fought on the back of the peoples with the biggest toll usually paid from dumb whites and their silly proud armies (at the Jew’s mercyless mercy).

  56. Russia showed what they can do to stop these color revolutions which are zionist created and this was a preview of what Russia can do in the Ukraine if NATO aka the zionist controlled NATO keeps pushing, it will only take Russia matter of hours and their tanks will be in Kiev, and NATO will not do a thing and if they want the Russians can take the whole country! Kazakhstan was a lesson to be learned for NATO and the zionist agent provocateurs .

  57. antibeast says:
    @A🧐

    A brief Islamic revival followed right after the collapse of the Soviet Union when local Muslims started small Mosques in rural villages. The post-Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan tolerated the spread of these village Mosques as a way of giving Kazakhs some their pre-Soviet identity in the form of Turkic Islam. But after 9/11, the Soviet-era Kazakh Nomenklatura, who had remained in power since gaining independence, saw the possible infiltration of radical Islam as a national security threat and reacted accordingly by restricting the role of Islam in society and banning any Islamic group from participating in the political life of the post-Soviet Kazakh nation.

    What has happened since then has been the rise of a Kazakh nationalism based on the Turkic ethno-linguistic identity of Kazakhs as descendants of Turco-Mongol tribes. This modern construction of their national identity is still a work in progress for Kazakhs with Tengrism having become the central part of their Kazakh national identity while Islam is not.

    The Kazakhs are quite wary of all the radical Islamic movements coming from foreign lands: Saudi Wahhabism, Iranian Shiism, Afghan Taliban or the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. That’s why most Kazakhs support the strict restrictions on the practice and worship of Islam, as imposed by State, in Kazakhstan. Not to mention the growing ranks of highly-educated, well-traveled Kazakh nationalists who do not like some Arab, Iranian or Uzbek Imams lecturing them on how ‘infidel’ they are by wanting to develop their own indigenous Turco-Mongol national identity outside of political Islam which those foreign imperialists want to reimpose on the Kazakhs as they had done during the glory days of their Islamic Empires long ago buried underneath the sand dunes of Central Asia.

    • Replies: @A🧐
    , @Hacienda
  58. @Eudion2

    Globalism is no more immortal than Marxism. More important : globalism is in no way more unified than marxism, it is prone to excommunications, heresies and the formation of viciously contending globalist parties world-wide like Marxism which could be Leninist (USSR) or not (Sweden, traditional Labour, New Deal…), which could be Stalinist or Trotskyist, which could be Maoist or revisionist, which could be third-worldist or not. As of now globalism can be maoist or rabidly anti-Chinese. Globalism in the US is very little else but a late form of Judaeo-Saxon imperialism as it has been existing since Cromwell with the capital moving to Israel as it once moved from the City to Wall Street. It is not immortal. Antiquity’s globalism was the Carthaginian empire, it was blotted out from the world map in one night. Putin is not a contender against globalism, he wants to insure that Russia remains an important decider outweighing more and more the anglo-saxons in the new world order to come and also make sure that the US get their comeuppance : he namely wants to displace the US as the nation most privileged by Israel. Globalism can be trotskyist or stalinist and Putin wants it to be Stalinist.

  59. @Old Brown Fool

    To add to your point – people seem to forget how much the Islamic Golden Age contributed to human advancement. They were not always uncultured nor unlearned…. From Perisan lands into Southern Spain and Timbuktu – there were many centers of Islamic learning. And things they disseminated did make it into the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @simple mind
    , @Bill
  60. @Bro43rd

    Turkey is a NATO country and India is cozy with the US… I guess Russia is confident enough that it doesnt mind the US getting its hands on the S400 since they are up to the S500 (and very soon 550). I still find them both peculiar. But I guess they think since Ukraine had given S300 to the US and the US got Flanker jets as well – that it doesnt matter because the US doesnt seem able to do any better…..??

  61. @Richard B

    The “Controversy of Zion” is a rambling screed of made up bullshit. It is vastly uncited and contains literally 1000’s of mere assertions, with almost no support outside the book itself.

    I looked up the link provided on the Unz site and while it is certainly interesting to read, the book is clearly a bunch of mystical speculations, and nothing like real study based on archaeology, written sources, anthropology, or anything else.

    He wanted to make a point, so the “facts” are stated to reach his desired conclusion. I could identify numerous examples (and distortions of the Biblical script itself), but this one jumped out as a good example of “sudden assertion” from nowhere:

    “Marriage between a Judean and a Galilean was forbidden and even before Jesus’s birth all Judeans living in Galilee had been forced by Simon Tharsi, one of the Maccabean princes, to migrate to Judah.”

    Completely unsourced, no citation. I looked up “Simon Tharsi” on Wikipedia FWIW

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Thassi

    And you can tell me if there is any indication this way. How would a local king “force” some Judeans living Galilee to “migrate”? Why? Magic? Force Rays?

    Marriage was “forbidden”? WTF does than mean, how does one “forbid marriage”

    The book just goes on and on and on like this. It’s basically sensationalist reporting, a writing style developed by many successful journalists.

    • Troll: Richard B
  62. @Showmethereal

    Nobody “forgot”, but it was a long time ago. It’s the Islamic world that forgot, and degenerated into a crumble of ruins and poverty, mired in disease and infant mortality.

    That torch got passed 400 years ago, and the path of Western development was opposite the sink of Islamic regression. Next turn is China, and maybe others.

  63. @A🧐

    Revival anywhere in the world of shamanism, natural medicine, art, symbolism, imagery are signs that what John Trudell pointed out about, that the European people and their New World descendants had been made de-tribalized and de-naturalized. These developments began in Europe with the introduction of a fake religion and a totally abstract alphabetization process.

    From 1968, when the Neo-tribal rock musical “Hair” exploded into our consciousness as nothing other than a Broadway production; visionary people all across the planet have initiated a return to our natural roots. Those roots were tribal and at the same time, universal. The three Abrahamic religions along with imperialism and colonialism are the downfall of literally billions of people right across the globe.

    The primary battle is spiritual. Green tendrils of hope for humanity are emerging through cracks in the sidewalks. We must strive to overcome our inculcated delusions.

  64. @simple mind

    Once again: Wikipedia is totally toxic as it has been profusely dominated by various “Intel” agencies. Even Google has slightly more credibility than Wickedpeddler.

    • Replies: @simple mind
  65. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @anonymous

    Can you crank up the copium? Because this isn’t cutting it.

  66. Dennis Dale says: • Website

    And you can tell me if there is any indication this way. How would a local king “force” some Judeans living Galilee to “migrate”? Why? Magic? Force Rays?

    You do it by force.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile

    Marriage was “forbidden”? WTF does than mean, how does one “forbid marriage”

    See my first answer. (You must never get anything done around your house with this utter lack of confidence in solving problems)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibited_degree_of_kinship

    Effin’ Unz, man. Effin’ Unz.

    • Replies: @bike-anarkist
  67. A🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    This narrative is not supported by the research. The numbers keep rising on everything from those that say they are practicing to things like numbers of halal slaughterhouses to the number of mosques ballooning from 63 during USSR times to over 2500. This is not info from the early 2000s but from very recent data. There are three papers taking data into account for the last three years that bear this out.

    It even gets notice with how it is affecting how authorities want to deal with COVID.
    The power of rising conservative Islam, for example, in Kazakhstan, was eloquently seen during the quarantine caused by COVID-19. One of the prominent conservative poets, who is also known for defending polygamy and other conservative Islamic tenets, was awarded a certificate of honor during quarantine by the ruling party, despite describing the COVID-19 as a hoax and misleading many of his followers. The funeral of a prominent conservative scholar, who died during quarantine, was attended by thousands of followers, and police could not intervene, despite state-imposed strict quarantine measures.
    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/11/11/548/htm

    Couple more papers with stats and references.
    The study argues, after independence, despite the secular and authoritarian nature of the government, ‘Islamic revival’ has become an institutionalised phenomenon and its appearance and social function in the public space has increased rather than decreased.
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/25765949.2019.1630576

    While the share of those who express preferences associated with religious orthodoxy has grown in both, this group has more than doubled in Kazakhstan.
    https://brill.com/view/journals/caa/4/1/article-p1_1.xml

    Took me around half an hour to find various articles and papers talking about the same trend in one direction. They all seem to point out what you are saying – the Soviet-era Kazakh Nomenklatura, who had remained in power since gaining independence – are trying to stem the tide, but are ending up making more and more concessions as time progresses.

    Interestingly – it seems the necon outlets notice this trend – I can’t tell whether this guy, Ariel Cohen, is expressing a tone of fear or hope in this statement.
    We saw three revolutions/revolts/coups in neighboring Kyrgyzstan. The key question is: To what extent did the victory of Islamists in the fall of Afghanistan energize Islamist forces throughout Central Asia? We might not be aware that we are in a new stage of political reality there. Older, Soviet-era leaders may be rejected by the new generation that grew up under independence and in a much more Islam-infused environment. I did notice the video clips of demonstrators conducting mass prayers in the open air. That’s something I never saw before in Kazakhstan. — Ariel Cohen
    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-streets-of-kazakhstan-are-in-chaos-heres-why-the-west-should-be-watching/

  68. A🧐 says:
    @emerging majority

    I’m not arguing which way it should go – I’m just talking about the actual way the trend seems to be going based on stats and research in Kazakhstan. If they want to go back to shamanism, it’s their call and their country, I’m just not seeing any serious move in that direction – at least not proven out by numbers, polls and such that one can put together in a research paper.

  69. Fred777 says:
    @windship

    “How much pain can the old fool take?“

    The problem is the old fool never feels a thing, he’s got on a protective suit. It’s the random people trying to have a picnic in the next yard that always get stung.

  70. @emerging majority

    Nobody at the CIA gives a flying french fry about “Simon Thassi of Judea” c. 200 BC.

    Feel free to enlighten me about Mr. Thassi

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  71. Hacienda says:
    @antibeast

    Not to mention the growing ranks of highly-educated, well-traveled Kazakh nationalists who do not like some Arab, Iranian or Uzbek Imams lecturing them on how ‘infidel’ they are by wanting to develop their own indigenous Turco-Mongol national identity outside of political Islam which those foreign imperialists want to reimpose on the Kazakhs as they had done during the glory days of their Islamic Empires long ago buried underneath the sand dunes of Central Asia.

    I’m Korean and I don’t like Koreans lecturing me on how great Christianity is. So, I’m with the Kazakhs on this one. Monotheism based out of the Vatican, Jeruselem, Riyadh, or Instanbul is the worst kind of racial and cultural enslavement. Better to be ignorant and living and dying in forest or desert, then being told how to live and die. Better to be drifting off the shores of Indonesia. Freedom for all, religious enslavement for none.

    • Agree: bike-anarkist
  72. Wiki is based in Tel Aviv, I thought was understood.

  73. @Dennis Dale

    Wiki has many propaganda issues in manipulating the history of the Levant.

  74. @emerging majority

    Revival anywhere in the world of shamanism, natural medicine, art, symbolism, imagery are signs that what John Trudell pointed out about, that the European people and their New World descendants had been made de-tribalized and de-naturalized. These developments began in Europe with the introduction of a fake religion and a totally abstract alphabetization process.

    This is no revival at all, because the real tenets of shamanism, natural medicine, etc, were not understood at all. Worse, they were distorted, perhaps to serve other (obscure) interests.
    This is the New Age, so pervasive today, a fake religion indeed.

    The three Abrahamic religions along with imperialism and colonialism are the downfall of literally billions of people right across the globe.

    The three Abrahamic religions became the downfall for many, but only when they got along with imperialism, colonialism and capitalism.
    At their core original message, they were the best any civilization could ask (together with their asian counterparts, mainly buddhism).

  75. Any possibility the inhabitants of the “single center” coordinating the coup might just have been detained by Spetznas?

  76. antibeast says:
    @Hacienda

    To have your tribal soul submit to a conqueror’s religion under pain of death is the worst form of colonial subjugation, far worse than physical exploitation or material deprivation. It’s akin to spiritual slavery which could last for centuries, even after the conquerors have long ago disappeared.

    That happened to the Persians, Turks, Eygptians, Levantines, Caucasians, Azeris, Afghans, Pashtuns, Balochs, etc. whose forced or coerced conversion to Arabic Islam turned them into spiritual slaves of the Arabs, long after the Islamic Empires which subjugated them became extinct.

    Now that the Kazakhs have finally liberated themselves from the spiritual yolk of Arabic Islam by rediscovering their indigenous Kazakh language, history, ethnicity, culture, tradition and religion based on their genetic origins from East Asia and their ancestral homeland in Central Asia, why should the Kazakhs — the Turco-Mongol descendants of fiercely independent warrior tribes from East Asia — allow their former Arab, Turkic and Iranic conquerors to subjugate them again using political Islam as spiritual weapon?

    • Replies: @A🧐
  77. IronForge says:

    Author fails to realize that the Khazari-Ashkenazi Tribals and their AngloMurican ZioMason Allies have been involved in Sabotage/Coups/Hijackings/War/Starvation/Colonialism/Exploitation for CENTURIES.

    ColorRevs may go out of style; but the Racket will resume in one form or another.

    • Agree: mulga mumblebrain
    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  78. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Brian Reilly

    The ZIONeoconUSA lampoon is not over …looking for more WARS…after Afghanitan.Irak/Lybia/Syria…memo to Putin…Take UCRANIA NOW….

    • Replies: @RobinG
  79. @Richard B

    What a Colour Revolution introduces, ie neo-liberal slavery and obeisance to Thanatopolis DC, is the furthest thing from ‘communism’ that there is.

    • Replies: @Richard B
  80. @IronForge

    Predators and parasites can NEVER change. It is in their DNA, their upbringing, their ‘religions’, the very fibre of their being. Without blood-sucking and theft they become mere human beings.

  81. Nancy says:
    @antibeast

    I they have armed ISIS-K to the teeth…. where will they turn up next? And ‘who’ will they be?

    • Replies: @antibeast
  82. @Hacienda

    It’s not even ‘Islam’. It’s the evil genocide cult of Wahhabism, and the slightly lesser Evil of the Moslem Brotherhood. Then there are the other death-cults, ‘American Exceptionalism’, ‘Perfidious Albion’ and Zionazism, all in cahoots. The Real Axis of Evil.

    • Thanks: emerging majority
  83. A🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    To submit your soul to a conqueror’s religion probably makes the most sense from a pagan perspective. It’s one of the reasons that Christian kings like Charlemagne were so successful against pagan tribes in Europe and converting them. It makes the most logical sense. If you are appealing to your tribal or ancestral gods and they don’t answer, either because they don’t exist or simply do not care, and you get completely defeated by some other people claiming to worship the One Big God – the most logical conclusion is that it exists or at least knows how to fight better than yours. Why wouldn’t people abandon localized gods that were MIA when you needed them most? See similar situation with Spanish and Aztecs.

  84. anonymous[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @simple mind

    We muslims are constantly reminded about how pathetic we are, in matters of science, medicine, engineering etc. On the other hand, some scholars like to remind us all of the so-called, Islamic golden age.

    Perhaps the Islamic civilisation has provided some good in such human endeavours, of which I am not sure of. All I know is, as far as human accomplishments I find awesome in the present day, from antibiotics to computers, I don’t see any muslims being credited for it.

    These are matters which can be slowly course corrected, over decades and centuries. In fact there are many muslim nations which are working towards that goal. It will take much effort, but it should be possible. Surely, the Almighty One who made everything possible, from antibiotics to computers, expects his creation to learn, discover, invent and do these amazing things.

    Given that the Islamic world already has the truth of pure unbending monotheism, the only spiritual logic which any makes sense (for theists anyway), and ultimately the only path to salvation… and also the currently unfolding course correction in matters mentioned above, our future generations can potentially have the best of both worlds.

    Now, contrast that with the pagan polytheist godless mangods-wroshipping world (If you worship a man or woman or animal, and any inanimate object, I mean you)… they may have achieved much greatness in matters of the world, but their godlessness has damned them to an eternity in Hell. Can such greatness be worth it? Is there much hope that this godless world, hurtling towards Hell, will course correct to the True Monotheism of Islam, and redeem themselves before it is too late?

    I think not.

    • Replies: @simple mind
  85. Hacienda says:

    To have your tribal soul submit to a conqueror’s religion under pain of death is the worst form of colonial subjugation, far worse than physical exploitation or material deprivation. It’s akin to spiritual slavery which could last for centuries, even after the conquerors have long ago disappeared.

    Yeah. It’s a tough area of the world. Huns, Turks, Mongols, Cuman, Avars, Russians, Brits, Chinese. Anyone who has played Risk knows how hard it is to keep control there. Basically, you need massive number of soldiers and be able to take China, India, Russia, India, Urals. Good luck with that!

  86. Anonymous[917] • Disclaimer says:

    Fascinating! I remember hearing military planners in the late 1980’s saying they were reorganizing to wage unconventional wars. I didn’t realize at the time what they meant. Now I can see they have become the initiators of the kind of war they wanted. The military no longer fight themselves but they use poor people to do the fighting and they monitor the action on their computers while having a coffee watching the missiles, the drones and the terrorists do the destruction.

    • Agree: Ned kelly
    • Thanks: emerging majority
    • Replies: @Ned kelly
  87. @Ross23

    The Mexican and Colombian cartels did not have this(a ready stand-in). Trans-generational stolidness is protective. Wonder why the US, rotting in the head, and waisting younger generations by design, would not be in line to some of the same(regime change, colour revolutions). Be they prey. Some Mongol Khan’s horse pissing @ Washington squares and avenues would be marvel entertainment.

  88. Ned kelly says:

    Not over yet… By far… There’s still a huge intelligence-information complex that isn’t going away any time soon… Americians have no idea how big that is… Even though they see it every day…. What has ended is the made for TV revolution that the Maidan revolution seems like the last successful one… But that discridited the media because they used Neo-Nazis…. (((Happy Holocaust Rememberance Day! Remember, never again!))) But the U.S. (and the World) is still going through the Woke Revolution… Turn on your Telly or look at an Ad

  89. @simple mind

    I should know anything about Simon Thassi? I should care?

  90. antibeast says:
    @Nancy

    Probably Yemen, just to destabilize the Arabian peninsula, where Saudi Wahhabism originated, as the birthplace of political Islam. In Buddhism, that is called Karma, which means ‘Boomerang Justice’: what goes around may come around to hit the Saudis in their azzes!

  91. Anon[214] • Disclaimer says:
    @emerging majority

    Is the red blue gate closed ?

  92. @A🧐

    Norway was forcibly converted to R.C. XTIanity by King Olaf Trygvasson. How did he pull that off? He would invade a tribal territory and after defeating them, the last standing leader would be spread-eagled on the ground and Hellig (“Holy” in Norsk –or Saint to a very stoopid Lootern college in Northfield, Minnesota) would command a pan of hot coals to be placed on the belly of the staunch leader who did not bow down to the damnable Cross.

    Needless to say the “One Big God” won that one too, just like Charlemagne succeeded in cowing the survivors of the Old Saxons, the last standing Germanic nation which fought against imperial power and their friggen Cross. So Charles “The Great” gave those survivors a choice. Kiss the Emperor’s sword and the cross and live, or choose not to and die by the sword. Thousands of the cream of that nation, men, women and even elders and children chose the sword.

    Nordic and Teutonic peoples who happen to be a bit discerning and historically aware still detest emperors and crosses.

    • LOL: Thim
    • Replies: @A🧐
    , @Showmethereal
  93. So now response comments are limited to three per 8 hour window. I seem to remember a more enlightened policy in recent years. Why?

  94. antibeast says:
    @A🧐

    After converting to Roman Christianity, Charlemagne betrayed his own Germanic ancestors who have been fighting the Roman Imperialists ever since Julius Caesar conquered Gaul. Worse of all, he committed spiritual genocide against his own Germanic peoples, consigning them to a thousand year spiritual slavery to a Semitic religion founded by a Jewish rebel, which the surviving Romans weaponized against the pagan Germanic tribes for destroying their Imperial Rome.

    The same thing happened to the Persians, Egyptians, Berbers, Afghans, Azeris, Levantines, Caucasians and the Turks who became spiritual slaves to Arabic Islam after the Arab conquests.

    The Iberians didn’t succumb spiritually to Islam after the Moorish Conquest nor did the Greeks and Armenians to the Ottoman Turks. The Iberians would later mount the reconquista to recover the Iberian Peninsula while the Greeks and Armenians recovered part of their ancestral homelands back from the Turks with their spiritual identities intact.

    • Agree: emerging majority
  95. Ned kelly says:
    @Anonymous

    what they meant was that they were going to take the USSR and and every other Communist country down, without firing a shot! I can still remember Tom Brokow riding down the streets of Beijing on a bicycle (during Tiananmen) in a state of pure euphoria! Putin had to live through that… Recently he admitted that he had to use his car as a taxi to survive… That the Yeltsin administration was swarming with CIA officers…

  96. A🧐 says:
    @emerging majority

    That’s kind of what I was getting at to be honest – and if you’ve read what the Teutonic Knights did in the Baltic Crusades…not pretty.

    But those are just examples of a general phenomenon. And I’m not saying arguing from a moral or emotional perspective, I’m really just talking logically.

    A major problem I see with people – especially those with an atheist or agnostic bent – is that they seem to project their perspective onto various historical people. For them, all religions are false, so you just assume people pick one like they do food off a buffet.

    The issue is that those tribes didn’t just have these various myths about a moon god or a mountain god or a war god – they really believed these things existed.

    Take for instance the Aztec example. You’re just living a reasonably good life chilling in your capital worshiping your serpent god and then – out of nowhere – these weird-looking shiny white-skinned people show up and they want to fight. So you do the same thing you’ve been doing for centuries – you sacrifice a few slave kids to make your god happy, your priests dress up in whatever puma suits and dance around and you gather with the king and appeal to them for victory – just like you have with the 50 other people you’ve defeated and then you go out with your awesome warriors dressed up as jaguars and eagles and…get the ever-loving snot kicked out of you by an army one tenth your size.

    And these guys maraud all over your city, torture and kill your king in front of you, toss a bunch of your priests off a talk waterfall and burn down your temples.

    What are you supposed to make of all this? This is it, it’s not like your serpent god is worshipped all over the world so he has a bunch of other people to keep worshiping him after you’re gone. It’s utter defeat – and you did everything that’s part of the deal with this god and he totally didn’t show up or got the crap kicked out of him by the One Big God these guys worship. This is not a theoretical question for these guys – now those other guys, that made short work of your best warriors and carted them off in chains as slaves, tell you that you need to follow their god. Why would you give up your life for this god that was utterly defeated and whose very memory is really at the mercy of whatever these shiny guys decide not to burn or destroy?

    • Thanks: W
  97. A🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    Interesting that the examples you specifically pointed out were one “Semetic religion” (founded by a Jewish rebel, as you said) versus another, right? And one could point out that the Muslims (the other “Semetic religion”) were basically conquered all over the world – mostly by Christians – and were able to toss them out after a few centuries also (it certainly helped that the Christians weakened each other in two major world wars).

    All I’m saying is that paganism or animism don’t seem to have good track records at recovery against either of those two once they get utterly crushed. See my notes to “emerging minority” – it seems that pagans would naturally conclude that they shouldn’t keep throwing in their lot with a bunch of gods that keep losing.

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  98. Ned kelly says:
    @A🧐

    I think this is why your comments are being limited… What do bleedin’ Aztecs have to do with anything? Please don’t answer that…

    • Replies: @A🧐
  99. Incompetence and one embarassing failure after another. The reign of the (((west))) and the KIKES are coming to an end.

    By the LORD, there will be a real Holocaust this time. Tic toc, kikes.

  100. @Harold Smith

    Agree. Until kingdom come, Satan and his children, the KIKES (and the golem, of course) will continue to inflict pain and corruption upon mankind.

    Stay strong, for we know who will win in the end. Fall not from the ladder, brothers!

  101. jsinton says:

    I always find Escobar’s pieces rather narrow minded and one dimensional. He just hates the west and loves Russia and China. Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But in his case he’s a well read propagandist. No better really than WaPo or NY Times fair.

    Take this case… “age of color revolutions is over” spiel. “Color revolution” is just a particular flavor of 5th generation asymmetric warfare employed to great success the last 20 years. It took that long for the Russians to catch on and employ effective means to counteract it in a key security partner state on it’s southern border. They won one and stamped it out quickly. They are to be commended for finally figuring it out.

    5th generation asymmetric warfare will simply modify and come back even more insidious and evil the next time. Like imposing another plandemic on an innocent target. Like what the Anglo-Zionist empire is doing to its own population right now. It’s far from over and promises to never end.

  102. Does the author have substantial evidence to suggest that the U.S. was behind the coup attempt?

    The U.S. does a lot of dumb things abroad, but this doesn’t feel like one of them to me. Maybe the Kazakhs acted on their own. I don’t see why they shouldn’t. That would be a simpler explanation than some murky international conspiracy.

    Before someone asks: no, I didn’t read the whole article. Escobar’s articles are usually tighter than this one. I like Escobar a lot, but this particular article is too long and unfocused for me.

  103. A🧐 says:
    @Ned kelly

    bleedin’ Aztecs
    Yup. If it ended up bleeding’ Spanish or Portuguese, things would have gone down differently.

    • Replies: @Ned kelly
  104. Ned kelly says:
    @A🧐

    The replies need to be attached to what they are commenting on… And staggered off… Like many sites do. I don’t know if that’s possible… But it would be better. Because I for one, can’t get around the nutters, nutzis, trolls and other lonely people, to get to the good stuff…

    • Agree: Fred777
    • Replies: @A🧐
  105. I posted this on another essay here, but it would appear to have greater relevance to this. Since we mainly seem to be on the same page here,

    A REALITY CHECK…

    Scenario:

    Let’s say we were actually living in a real universe, and not this fake fairies-tail monstrosity, and things shifted radically. I mean: the shots were known by all as ((their)) mass-murder weapon, say we’d lost 500,000,000 souls to ((them)), and ((they)) were well-and-truly on the run, with absolutely nowhere to hide, and no-one to defend ((them)).

    Question:

    Do we DO ((them)) for real? I mean for the sake of ourselves, our revenge, our children’s genitals, our future, our world, whatever motivation you want, do we make sure this holocaust is really gonna’ be a REAL one, and the last one we’ll ever need wonder about like this, for ever and ever, amen? Or do we sit back watch Schindler’s List, and let ((them)) quietly start up ((their)) ‘business’ all over again?

    Just saying

  106. @A🧐

    There shouldn’t have been a Turkey after the first world war and their Genocide of the Armenians and Greeks…. but their khazar cousins had other plans for the donmeh Attaturk

    • Replies: @A🧐
  107. @V. K. Ovelund

    Idiot troll-what does the NED pay for trolling these days? Escobar outlined the culprits, but you didn’t read on??!!

  108. @A🧐

    You may be caught up in an oranges or apples situation. Human sacrifice was somewhere between rare and nonexistent, depending on the cultural matrix of a particular tribe or civilization. It strikes me that such an abhorrent practice indicates a dearth of spiritual connectivity…something else which I cannot precisely describe, either practically or theoretically.

    Best as my level of historical understanding is that neither the Norse, nor their Teutonic cousins were practitioners of egregious practices such as practiced by the Aztecs. Cannibalism was also associated with the sacrifices. Some anthropologists surmise that a relative dearth of protein in Meso-American diets at that juncture, may have been an element in those proclivities.

    Spanish attitudes to those whom they fought certainly went back even before the emergence of El Cid and could have been a significant factor in their bloodthirsty greed and aggressiveness against those they determined to be “the Other”.

    • Replies: @A🧐
  109. During the “Interim President”/Branson concert fiasco at the Venezuelan/Colombian border it seemed to me that the Venezuelans were, usually, at least one step ahead; and ready, and waiting, with a more than appropriate response for things as they “spontaneously” transpired. Magic? Or maybe there’s some serious counter-regime change espionage taking place globally?

  110. @antibeast

    Greeks recovered a majority of their lands (all west of the
    Bosphorous) the Armenians nada…. Wilson Arbitral Award of 1920 legally reestablished the Republic of Armenia but it was usurped by the illegal treaty of Moscow between the bolshevik jews and the donmeh jew attaturk… Zion was in full force grabbing their stolen land and made sure the west did not enforce the mandate.

  111. Richard B says:
    @simple mind

    I would have put JIDF Troll, but unfortunately TUR doesn’t offer that as an option. So I just went with Troll. Either way, it fits. And your silly comment is proof that whenever anyone overreacts it means they’re lying to themselves about something.

    It also proves you didn’t read the book.

    Then again, you don’t call yourself “simple mind” for nothing.

    • Replies: @simple mind
  112. @A🧐

    It’s not gods. Spiritually grounded cultures rarely if ever “worship” gods. They well realize that spirit is present in all beings, including the inanimate, if you really want to get hyped.

    My favorites may be the Lakota people and many other Turtle Island tribal nations who held such views. Their perspective was neither reductionist nor dogmatic. Perhaps you have heard the term “Great Sprit” in movies or literature. The term used to describe the ineffable by the Dakota nations was “Wakan Tonka”—the Great Mystery. Perfectly humble and humbly perfect.

    Even their enemies, who drove the Lakota out of my homeland in this lifetime, the Northwoods of Minnesota, the Ojibwa people, who had gradually migrated all the way from Nova Scotia, used a similar term to describe Creator: “Gitchee Manitou”. That Algonquin perspective essentially meant Great Sprit or Creator. Few if any of the tribes in what is now the United States and Canuckistan even attempted to define the source of creation. Rather than such hubris, they simply viewed that phenomenon in awe and perhaps even, adoration.

    Latter-day Lakota visionary, the late John Trudell expressed it well. He bemoaned those European colonists, particularly the Plymouth Bay “Puritans”, who as per the Old Testicles, came to their “promised land” to achieve dominion over the “wilderness”. That which they encountered and derided, was a people living in a higher level spiritually than those Calvinistic assholes. Trudell’s take was that the European intruders were a messed up bunch who had become de-tribalized and deracinated due to having had to swallow false religious mythologies which were the products of desert cultures.

    ALL the tribal people of Europe who became Christianized, were subjugated and essentially forced into that denial of the actual messages of the spiritual way shower, Jesus. The Jesusites, were ultimately defeated by action of the Roman Emperor, Constantine, who recruited the Crosstian leaders to edit and publish his Magnum Opus, the so-called “Bible”. The truly spiritually infused scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas were deliberately excluded. Rather, the Bible became based upon the alleged writings of Saul the Pharisee, who bent and twisted the message of the Great Wayshower.

    The proof is in the pudding. Rural people throughout Europe, lived in a state of atonement with the natural world. Spiritual infusion was inherent in their cultures. Their gods and goddesses were multiple and variant. They were rarely ever worshipped as the be-all and end-all. One insight may clarify the chasm between urban-based and deracinated Roman and Orthodox Christianity and country folk. The Romanized Christians derided and mocked those “hayseeds”. The term they used to described rural people was “Pagani”. From thence, the derisive term “Pagans”.

    Should you happen to have a broad sociological perspective, you may well realize that the term “common-sense” does not apply to the majority of Americans who happen to be sub-urbanites.

    That species of humans has neither the street-smarts of true urbanites, nor the cosmopolitan urbanity of the best of them, nor that grounded, highly personalized common sense of country folk. Church attendance in the U.S. has dropped off heavily in the past couple of generations–most of that happening in urban and suburban America. Reason why a lot of small-town and rural people are still connected with churches is their felt need for community. Over time, those institutional elements will be replaced by practices and perhaps even rituals which are fully grounded at one level and cosmic in scope in an interdimensional sense.

    We happen to be experiencing a time of great transition as we segue from the Age of Pisces into the Age of Aquarius. As the Astrological genius, Dane Rudhyar pointed out while still in his 20’s, back in the Nineteen-Thirties, symbology will change as we evolve more deeply into the actual new age. Check out the Norse Rune “Ogal”. It resembles a cross tipped over so that it stands on two legs and not just one, while being topped by a pyramid. It has only four lines, resolving into 4 or more angles. It does not throw the baby out with the dishwater. That symbol might be called the Diamond Cross.

    The cross is not erased, but incorporated. In that symbolism, the Western world may at long last achieve some level of parity with that of East Asia, where the balanced Yin and Yang of the Tao symbolizes sexual and community harmony with both the world of nature and that of the entire Cosmos. Have a read of the 1906 visionary work of Richard Bucke, “Cosmic Consciousness”. It may be a bit of an eye-opener.

  113. Richard B says:
    @mulga mumblebrain

    What a Colour Revolution introduces, ie neo-liberal slavery and obeisance to Thanatopolis DC, is the furthest thing from ‘communism’ that there is.

    Call is what you will they both have a lot in common.

    Such as the slavery and obeisance you mentioned in your comment. Also, though they go about it differently, they both approve of the deification of force wielded by the State.

    Speaking of the State, they’re both state-driven strategies for capital intensive economic development. Though the obvious difference there is that communism’s focus was on fixed capital and neoliberalism is on fake capital.

    I always saw neoliberalism as an example of obscurantism, where those in question hide their real, more sinister, agenda behind a nicer sounding word or phrase.

    Oh, and in keeping with your nice use of the title of Bryant’s poem, they’re also both death bound. But whereas Bryant’s poem was a consideration of death, both communism and neoliberalism are willing to go beyond consideration and straight to the real thing. And, since they control the State, who can stop them?

  114. Ned kelly says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Proof: Timing. Like FDR said: there are no coincidences in politics. I know you’re not missing the very dangerous Ukraine standoff. They literally
    Snuck around and kicked the Russians/Putin in the arse. All this makes war far more likely… You can only push for so long… Russians are running let’s hope notout of room. What you might be thinking is that they would do somthing this crazy. If so you are, you are sadly mistaken. When it comes to Putin/Russia they are totally mishugana!

  115. A🧐 says:
    @Colonel Dolma

    Well the plan was to dissolve Turkey but you have to give credit where it’s due, the Turks fought hard for their independence and pretty much everyone was fairly exhausted to do anything about helping the Greeks hold their territory down.

  116. A🧐 says:
    @emerging majority

    I have read that some of the European tribes did indeed sacrifice slaves (in fact, just a quick search on terms like Norse slave sacrifice yields plenty of archaeological articles), but I don’t think it was at the level of the Aztecs (which was sacrificing – even children – at an institutional level).

    However, that is besides the larger point I was making. I was just using the Aztecs as a random example. One could readily apply it to the European pagans. Once their pantheon basically didn’t show up to help them win the fight and they kept losing battles and territory again and again consistently, what could they possibly conclude about the gods that they worshipped?

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  117. A🧐 says:
    @Ned kelly

    Use the ignore commenter feature, that’s what it’s for.

  118. frontier says:
    @sally

    Good comment, you went down the real rabbit hole.

  119. @jsinton

    I don’t understand why is it considered “5th gen”. There’s nothing particularly modern about subversion and inciting rebellions.

  120. ROTFL. It’s only January and this may be the funniest video of the year.

    It’s like Star Wars done for pennies.

    Imperial emissary and his gungan translator.

  121. @simple mind

    Not true… I read many many comments from uninformed people who claim Islamic civilization never contributed anything to humanity…. (many westerners have no clue where the idea of “chivalry” came from for instance). They also say the same about China too – which is even more ridiculous.

  122. @jsinton

    “particular flavor of 5th generation asymmetric warfare employed to great success the last 20 years.”

    Compared to failed colour revolutions in the last 20 years – it is more of a disaster than anything…

  123. @Wizard of Oz

    anti neocon rather than the reverse.

    What are you saying ? Did he or didn’t he? Pro-archaeocontra? WTH.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  124. RobinG says:
    @Anonymous

    Exactly, and as in Pepe’s last sentence –

    “Beware the rage of a humiliated Empire.”

  125. A🧐 says:
    @simple mind

    It may well be argued that our infant mortality rates are higher, but we in the west simply don’t want to count the numbers of babies we enthusiastically abort every year.

  126. @windship

    Look, the whole point of NATO is to protect the Atlantic Ocean, just like AuUSUKisrael gotta protect the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. You know, keep those oceans free and democratic. Now, what’s the worst thing that could happen for the Oceans? Eurasia and Africa pull together and link up OVERLAND! What the Pirates of the Caribbean going to do then? Now you see why USUK so splittist!

  127. @A🧐

    European tribal folk did NOT worship gods. I know it can be hard after years and years of programming, but try to let that understanding filter into your skull. The images they worshipped were seen as iconic or totemic manifestations of natural phenomena. Their visions were universal. Their rituals and practices were grounded in the natural world as they sensed it.

    If Native Americans got it, there is no reason to believe that prior to having the JudieChristie MagickMindfuck imposed upon them; the European folk did not get it as well. Get what, you might ask? If recall is correct, the gentleman was actually a Jesuit, if you can imagine that. His name: Teilard de Chardin. He described it perfectly: “We are not human beings living a spiritual experience. We are spirits, living a human experience”.

    What I’ve been attempting to point out is that organized religion and spirituality are two discrete entities. Though most religions were based on the spiritual realizations of amazing humans and in their initial phases followed those pathways quite closely. What happened over time, though, is that the words and actions which ignited those movements became redacted and abraded over the decades and centuries and that as the result of priestcraft and religious bureaucracies, larded by the occasional fanatic; those movements became institutionalized and in the process, first ossified and ultimately petrified.

    The Wayshower Jesus never set out to establish a church. He did, however, insist that “The Father” is within. One does not need an institution to mediate between one’s self and the ineffable. He was a Jewish rebel because all too many Jews had become dominated by those who would institutionalize them and control their minds—and gather up plenty of Shekels along the way.

  128. anonymous[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @emerging majority

    The three Abrahamic religions along with imperialism and colonialism are the downfall of literally billions of people right across the globe.

    Christendom, with their shiny discoveries and inventions, which they laughingly attribute to their pagan godless faith, would dispute that. 😀

    Anyway…

    This hyphenation of the “three Abrahamic religions” betrays a deep misunderstanding of the faiths.

    There is indeed a clear hyphenation between Judaism and Christianity (let us call it Judeo-Christianity). The whole “in-his-image” mangod-worship is shared between them, no matter how deceitfully Jews may like to dissemble the pagan concept behind that abomination (they don’t appear to have visual idols, but their paganism is hard to dispel, given their history with calf-worship, etc.)

    Prophet Abraham PBUH viscerally despised the accursed practise of mangods and idol-worship. Judaism and Christianity have thus rejected Abrahamic beliefs. Calling them “Abrahamic religions” is ultimately a misnomer.

    Islam on the other hand, absolutely and categorically rejects this “in-his-image” abomination. God is NOT man!!

    Islam is the only “Abrahamic religion.”

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  129. @Wizard of Oz

    I can judge the situation by seeing what you are grunting, Grendel, and assuming that the opposite is true-never fails. Are you idiot or disinformer? That one is easy.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  130. @antibeast

    We are in August 1914 times. The forces of Evil, the Five Eyes Satanists, are cranking up the war engines, attacking Russia front and back, and now, long awaited, pushing the ‘Chinese bio-weapon’ inversion of reality, again, re. CoViD19. Demands from psychotic Anglo racist for trillions in ‘compensation’ from China for CoViD are the work of deranged and Evil lunatics who think it is still 1839, and the Yellow Peril can still be ordered about and looted by the White Boss.
    But this type is everywhere in the West, and now MI5 is cracking down on any who dare engage in normal human interactions with China. This is the root ‘mass formation psychosis’-the rotten and crumbling ‘Gods Upon the Earth’ who cannot abide their demise, and are quite prepared, if they cannot bully humanity in their preferred fashion any longer, to annihilate it. ‘Better to reign in ell than serve in Heaven’. I see that the Morrison regime, as expected, has kicked Jokovic out. You knew it was coming because these are EVIL vermin, who love bullying, and because their slimy stooges in the MSM sewer have been ramping up the hate against Jokovic all week. The regime has a fair leavening of Croat fascists in its ranks, too.

    • Replies: @Jazman
  131. @Ned kelly

    The truth is that the MOST Evil force in human history, the Anglosphere ‘Five Eyes’, is dying of internal, multifaceted, corruption, and in its death-throes will, deliberately, destroy humanity if it can no longer dominate it, and forever.

  132. antibeast says:
    @A🧐

    Tengrism seems to have some sort of syncretic influence mostly into folk Sufi practices and mostly in the more remote and rural areas – not unlike syncretic animism in the peripheries of much of the various Muslim countries. It also seems to have made more headway into art and symbolic imagery as well as return of some shaman healing practices. Realistically, it probably has less of a chance of standing on its own than Rodnovery in Russia.

    Tengrism is viewed not so much as an organized religion such as Islam but as part of the Kazakh national identity. Here’s a video of a Kazakhstan Museum showing just how much influence Tengrism has had on the pastoral lifestyles of nature-worshiping Kazakh nomads.

    Just search for something like “islamic revival in Kazakhstan” and plenty of academic papers come up explaining the various dynamics.

    After its independence, Kazakhstan saw the influx of foreign Imams from Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim States which funded the construction of Islamic madrassas and Mosques in the big cities like Almaty and Nur-Sultan. In response to the foreign influx, Kazakhstan created State-sanctioned Islamic institutions to instrumentalize the local version of Kazakh Islam, as a way to preempt the foreign versions of Arabic, Turkic, Afghan, Uzbek and Iranian Islam from becoming dominant in Kazakhstan. To this end, Kazakhstan imposed strict regulations limiting the religious rights of Kazakhs to study and practice foreign Islam.

    This recent act by Tokayev to outlaw the Arab Jihadists as ‘foreign terrorists’ has effectively delegimitized foreign Islam in Kazakhstan while affirming the nature of modern Kazakhstan as a secular State with its unique ethno-cultural identity as a Turco-Mongol nation.

  133. W says:

    The enemy of my enemy is not my enemy. If Russia and China are actually standing up against the Bank\$ter controlled puppet regimes in the Di\$trict of Corruption and in Whitehall; then they could not possibly be my enemies.

    Russia and China are both going along with the cooties1984 nonsense, they may not necessarily be your enemy but they are not your friend. Putin is definitely not your friend.

    PUTIN’S ALT-MEDIA NETWORK EXPOSED | KNOW MORE NEWS FEAT. CHRISTOPHER JON BJERKNES

  134. @emerging majority

    I actually know some executives and board members of Central banks. Do you, or do you just have some phantasmagoria idea of mysterious humanoid creatures that you read about on social media? I can’t argue with you. Your total bollocks shows you don’t even have a basic grasp of reality.

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  135. @Badger Down

    Your question is incomprehensible but maybe suggests that you are ignorant of Ron Unz’s long established antagonism to the ideas and tactics of neocons.

  136. @mulga mumblebrain

    Here and above where you pinned “Troll” to my sceptical comment about Peppe Escobar you indicate faith in him as a reliable source of – presumably – both fact and opinion. I gave a brief reason to back my intuition that he is a cynical, mercenary, shill for Russia (sensible enough: Russia has more places to go and more money than Ukraine). Can you make a considered case for him?

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  137. @mulga mumblebrain

    Let me suggest you also consider

    The London-Kazakhstan connection – https://on.ft.com/3Fr47gi via @FT

    On the one hand you have Pepe’s handwaving connection of Jonathan Powell to MI6 and plots against the Kazakh government and on the other well informed FT reporting of Tony Blair’s role, and the City of London’s role, in making life safe and comfortable for the Kazakh dictator and his money. There is more stuff in the FT about the close London Kazaakhstan connection which Pepe has got all the wrong way round.

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  138. @antibeast

    Correct. Tajikistan is also against the Arabian influence of Islam on their form. Most people outside the region dont know that as part of the SCO – certain measures China took such as wanting to ban Arabian architecture and the wearing of long beards in Xinjiang – they got those ideas from the neighboring “stans”. That is why while the west was talking nonsense about genocide against Uighurs – the “stans” were sharing intelligence about their movements to China. The region does not want Wahabis. Nor do they really want the Turkey backed extremist groups.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  139. @Arthur MacBride

    Arthur Bhai wrote
    “Erdogan’s snotty attitude toward Russia”

    Bhai, Erdogan is criminal mafia man and his party (Justice & Development Party, AK Parti) is a criminal organization (there have been some revelations by some Turkish mafia bosses lately) involved in protection money racket (havta in India) in Turkey.

    There is this Turkish gentleman, Atilla Yesilada, who writes about the reality of Mafia boss Erdogan which foreigners like us will not know, about the deep problems in Turkish economy and the problematic long term future. His channel is called REAL TURKEY


    How Erdogan is Destroying Turkish Economy ?


    What is the difference between Turkey and a Banana Republic?

  140. @emerging majority

    Well thos “Chrisitans” obviously never read their bible because you can never “force” anyone to be a Christian. It is a spiritual thing that has to be an inward thing – going outward. He told His followers to go to all nations and teach them what I taught you. He never said to go conquer anyone (which is the exact opposite of everything he taught). Emperor Constantine sold the west a faoe Christianity. That is the first problem.

    • Replies: @B🧐
  141. @mulga mumblebrain

    Hard to choose whether silly or frivolous is the mot juste for 90% of your contributions . I suppose finding mature knowledgeable fill-jn staff is difficult. Certainly one management could trust to give a proper answer.

  142. antibeast says:
    @Showmethereal

    Tajikistan is wary of ALL foreign Islamist groups as it had suffered from its Civil War right after its independence in the 1990s involving local Islamists as well as Uzbek, Afghan, Arab (al-Qaeda) and other foreign Jihadists who wanted to establish an Islamic State there.

    That’s why Tajikistan requested the CSTO back in July 2021 for joint military exercises just before the Fall of Kabul due to the massive influx of Afghan soldiers across its shared border with Afghanistan. That’s also the reason why Russia maintains a military base there.

    What Westerners don’t understand is that the ex-Soviet Central Asian Republics which are members of CSTO such as Kazakhstan, Krygyztan and Tajikistan are very different from Muslim countries such as Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. These ex-Soviet Central Asian Republics have Muslim majorities but they are not Muslim countries because they don’t practice Shariah Law unlike Muslim countries that do practice Shariah Law.

    Besides that fact, Kazakhstan and Krygyztan are Turco-Mongol nations with deeper spiritual ties to their native Tengrism than to their folk Islam which had been excised from their social, cultural and political life during decades of Soviet rule, only to be revived by foreign Imans who were being supported by Turkic, Saudi and other foreign sponsors after their independence.

    However, all the ex-Soviet Central Asian Republics have grown wary of political Islam since 9-11. And that’s why they have banned Islamist groups from participating in the political life of their secular nations and have imposed severe restrictions on the religious rights of their own citizens on the study and practice of foreign Islam since then.

  143. @Ned kelly

    Proof: Timing. Like FDR said: there are no coincidences in politics. I know you’re not missing the very dangerous Ukraine standoff. They literally
    Snuck around and kicked the Russians/Putin in the arse. All this makes war far more likely… You can only push for so long… Russians are running let’s hope notout of room. What you might be thinking is that they would do somthing this crazy. If so you are, you are sadly mistaken.

    Perhaps you are right. Perhaps Escobar is, too. It wouldn’t be the first time.

    Escobar is an original thinker who often makes interesting observations by conveying little-known facts to The Unz Review’s thoughtful audience. I usually look forward to Escobar’s articles, but unfortunately, could not make much sense of this one. It’s not so much that the article didn’t persuade me, but rather that the article simply failed to convey to me what the article was supposed to be about. I do not know enough about MI6, et al., to place the article in context; and, after reading, remain unsure that Escobar knows enough either.

    Escobar knows a lot, of course; but maybe not on this particular topic.

    Your comment made more sense to me than the article did.

    • Replies: @Ned Kelly
  144. Che Guava says:

    Good comment. In Japan, everybody is sick of the coronavirus bullshit, nobody knows anyone who has died or even become very sick from it, ergo, a really mild cold or flu.

    Some in local government are determined to ramp the panic back up.

    Everywhere, except the smallest villages, has a P.A. sysmem, usually only used for a close-of-day musical phrase or emergency warning in the case of an earthquake or serious typhoon (most of the latter are just rain, so no emergency annoucement).

    I have been very irritated that the local govt. area where I live has been playing an announcement about the continuing danger of the kung-flu after the evening musical phrase since early this month. More than two years of this bullshit, with the bonus of vaccines that don’t provide any prevention, but actually kill many people. WTF?!

  145. B🧐 says:
    @Showmethereal

    This makes no sense honestly. Putting quotes around things and being dismissive completely misses the point and is historically inaccurate. Again, I’m not saying what should have happened, but the track record is fairly clear that Christians didn’t historically have much of a problem with this sort of thing and it was endorsed at the clerical level (presumably men who were very, very familiar with the Bible and – it could be argued – took it more seriously than Christians of today).

    There’s no sense in pretending this was an exceptional missionary tactic; for many centuries, it was the method of choice among Christian rulers and missionaries. The conversion of much of Europe and of Latin America is unimaginable without the sword.
    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Again, not what Christians should have done – because I can certainly agree that it seems off compared, but actually did historically and, not just by random people – but endorsed by the clerical establishment. You have to also remember there were priests involved personally in the torture of various heretics – there are museums in Europe that have even preserved their tools. It seems really bizarre to us now, but then again, I read that torturing cats was a pastime in the medieval era so maybe that’s just how they rolled with everything. Wanting history and people’s motivations to follow what you think should have happened is not a good substitute for what did. Simply dismissing all of those people as fake Christians with a wave of the hand is looking at things way too simplistically.

    Of interest, one of the bloodiest civil wars in China was also one where a sect of Christianity tried to take over the state and replace it with a theocracy. Again – just history.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  146. @anonymous

    The very term, Islam, sticks in my craw. It signifies SUBMISSION. Being of mostly Norse ancestry and some of them likely with Viking connexions; WE have never submitted, even when the evil “Saint” Olaf, had his chief captives spread-eagled on the ground and then pans of hot coals were place upon their bellies. Object lesson: Submit.

    Same is true with the totally insane Wahabis and Takfaris being regurgitated out of Madrassas in Pakistan and crawling out of similarly crazy centers in other Islamoid nations. We are not talking the Sufis here, but elements of the dominant Sunni elements in the Muslim world.

    Creator never would have chosen a “Chosen People”, as against all other people. The ancient Hebrew WarGod, Yahweh, was created by those same Hebrews. No true Creator would have messaged Muhammed either. The man was inspired and his words, such relatively few as have been written into the Qur’an, hold significant elements of wisdom. However, the priestcraftly set rearranged matters, both in the “it is written” Koran and within the totally man-made Hadiths. It took only a few decades for Islamicized Arabs to go on the warpath to circumcise many previously innocent tribal peoples, from the Atlantic shores of Morocco to the island of Mindanao in the Philippines.

    Patriarchal religions are almost totally unfriendly to the natural world and to half the human race: Womankind. Those religions are based on alphabetical abstractions and ultimately create obstructions to a spiritually infused life. They will soon pass into the misty realms of history as humanity reawakens from these abstractions away from grounded spirituality and visionary Cosmic connexions.

    Cease to submit. There is no need for any interceding force to interfere between individual conscience and the Creative force which encompasses All that Is.

  147. @antibeast

    Thank you for sharing that video. It was one of the most powerful presentations I have ever viewed. What it told me is that rural Kazakhs live within a culture which is infused with both art and artistry. Totally remarkable symbology and connectedness with their deep relationship into the natural world.

    Tokayev may be that nation’s counterpart to President Putin. He is apparently doing what he can to preserve his people’s rich cultural roots, particularly by standing up to the Wahabist, Salafist, Muslim Brotherhood madness.

  148. @Wizard of Oz

    As for bollocks, you should show more concern for the land Down Under, where Covid concentration camps for the unvaxxed are the rule and where the damnable Governor General still carries out the agenda of the Bank\$ters via your bloody quean.

    When the false-flag incident in Tasmania allowed the puppet regime in Canberra to divest the Australian people
    of their firearms; it was a clear sign that the ghosts of Gallipoli would be rolling in their graves, sorrowing over lives spent for nothing more than continued rule from City of London.

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  149. Kazakhstan was not a “color revolution.” You weenies need to grow up a bit and learn that people get tired of living under the thumb of tyrants. The Kazakhs didn’t need anyone to encourage them rise up against the regime.

    On the other hand, it appears that the “revolution” was a result of a rivalry between the current President and the past President. That’s why he left the country when the uprising was put down.

    • Troll: showmethereal
  150. Ned Kelly says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I’m amazed… My gibberish did the job. Got distracted, ran out of time on the editor…
    I think I’m depressingly right… I’m so certain I’m pulling money out of investment… War is the agenda…. Dancing laughing images of Hunter Biden and Ihor Kolomoisky are twirling in my mind…

  151. @B🧐

    You completely missed the point… But i guess that is natural because it is spiritually discerned. The bible tells its followers not to judge by appearance and words…. It says you tell a tree by its fruits… A good tree doesnt give rotten fruit. So those supposed priests and their methods were rotten fruit. Celibacy is unbiblical and then you wonder why in European times they were involved in orgies like their forebears – or in more modern times they were banging nuns and molesting children. Again you cannot force conversions to a spiritual thing. It doesnt work

  152. Infoman says: • Website

    I just wanna say a conspiracy theory of mine. I think that this incident was a false flag, and I explain who told me, it was Mickey Mouse.

    [MORE]

    No, seriously. This event as a false, and was concocted in the same way, Israel entraps palestinians.

    There is a video documentary, where the Israeli soldiers, croos over into palestine, with guns that have blanks, dressed like Palestinians, and they start creating their own fake uprising, shouting and firing blanks to the Israeli soldiers.

    What that does is, inspire and motivate the true palestinians to join them, and with out knowing, they Israeli soldiers, start to grab them and arrest them or just beat them to submission and then kidnap them by taking them to the Israel border, and dissappear them.

    Now, to compare with Kahzakstan, blah blah incident. I have been reading that at first, there where no firearms available to the rioters, and a person recorded and took pictures of brand new pick up trucks, loaded with firearms, and people handing them down to the rioters. And thats why it did escalate, and like in a movie from Hollywood, right on time, the saviours, the russian soldiers came to liberate their oppressed friends.

    And now, like Israel does to Palestinians, the Russian did, in a exact manner to the local rioters. Now, some might differ, but it does not matter what nationality or race or religion they where. The russian government needed a military intervention and escalation, so they can use the military, NOT the POLICE.

    And here is the rotten cherry on top.

    Israel is pushing all kinds of possible case scenarios, to forceably invade, attack IRAN, and they needed the help of their own type of scum, so they called, their little playmate of the year Putin, to participate in the so called Issue of Kahzakstan, becuase it was the perfect excuse to get Russian soldiers, closer to Iran from another vector for the following possible scenario.

    Russia has way too many, mercenary and remote drone deployment Area of Operations close and around IRAN.

    By having a multiprong approach of attack, IRAN’s cyber and nuclear power structures or infrastructures, can be offuscated with multi level hacking attacks, leaving the Nation of Iran open to be attacked or invaded by Israel from the south, again by means of a made up excuse that a lot of half brain dead people will swallow, so Israel gets again support to go ahead for a full invasion.

    Behind the curtains is Russia helping Israel.

    Please refence topics like Israel Talpiot Program 8200, Bethesday Israel Cyber security bunker, russian jews join Israel tech sector, Brendon Oconnell, in youtube.

    Remember that the so called explosion in the Lebanon ports, was a Israeli mini Nuke, that was launched after a smaller missile was fired, to create the same effect as a minor accident involving gas or fire prone materials. First comes a small fire, and flames, some smoke, and then a big explosion.

    Veterans Today website, has the video and the pictures to back what I just wrote.

    Again, To me, its a false flag.

    And remember like 911 in New York, we need to blame Muslims, like israel calls Palestinians, Muslim terrorists, so the news that reported on the matter, were calling out the statistics of the country, and pointing out that they were…..Muslims.

    Please also check in youtube, a speech by Benjamin Natheneyu, stating that Adolf Hitler did not come to his so called conclusion to kill jews by himself, BIBI ays, he got the idea from… a Muslim.

  153. @Infoman

    Actually Nutty-yahoo said that Hitler got the idea from a PALESTINIAN, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The eventual fate prepared for the Palestinians by the Zionazis and Talmudists is ‘transfer’ ie expulsion, including Palestinian ‘Israelis’ and extermination for those who resist.

  154. @emerging majority

    Nong-nong, there are no ‘concentration camps’, yet. Just quarantine facilities. This sort of deranged DISINFORMATION is probably concocted by the regime to make those resisting the coming fascism look barking mad. What’s your pay grade, per spew?

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  155. @Infoman

    One simple question: Who cuts your paycheck?

  156. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    Thanks for the very interesting video, I enjoyed it. I believe what you are writing seems to broadly agree with what I’m seeing in the various research papers I’m seeing. Keep in mind, this is not about what ought to be, but what actually is.

    Tengrism, as you stated, is not an organized religion and there is little evidence it has any chance of supplanting Christianity or Islam in Kazakhstan. The most it seems to be able to do make some kind of symbolic or syncretic inroads as part of some historical cultural heritage. And that makes sense, if it had any chance of being able to do so, it would have done when the religion of Tengrism was the main religion of the Turco-Mongol badasses that ran over China, Persia and partially into Europe. But they themselves eventually converted to Buddhism, Christianity or Islam.

    By the way, another thing I discovered was that the foreign empire most responsible for the Kazakhs becoming Muslims was – wait for it…Russia.

    In historical science, it was firmly established that Islam by the beginning of the 19th century was not widespread among Kazakhs…. One of the steps to include the region in the scope of Russian relations was the Islamization of the Kazakhs, which was considered by the Russian government as a civilizational factor of the empire in relation to the nomadic outskirts. To this end, the territory of the Kazakh steppe became subordinate to the Spiritual Administration of Muslims of Russia, which opened in 1788, one of the functions of which was the spread of Islam among the Kazakhs. In addition, the construction of mosques, the appearance of mullahs was supposed by the Russian administration to help strengthen the position of Islam among nomads.
    https://www.redalyc.org/journal/279/27963984015/html/

    Weird, right?

    Anyway, you did miss something that was mentioned in the articles I found and books like this.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Y9IhEAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA90

    Namely that Kazakhstan has been sending students to study Islam to various places including Egypt, Saudi, Pakistan and Syria well into the 2000s though they are trying to be more self-sufficient through their university in Almaty which seems to be run in conjunction with Azhar from Egypt.

    You keep mentioning “Kazakh Islam” and it almost makes it sound as if a bunch of imams are dressing up like shamans or something. But all of the research points to patronage being given to something called Hanafi (or Hanafite) and Maturidi which seem to be two legal and theological schools (respectively) that have always been predominant in the area and had roots in the greater Persian region and Central Asia (especially in places like Bukhara and Samarkand and Tashkent) and seem to be both – 1) distinguished from schools in Arab lands (but not so much from Islam in Turkey and India/Pakistan which are also apparently Hanafi and Maturidi) and 2) considered fairly orthodox.

    The state sanctioning of this official Islam is a lot like one sees in places like Egypt or other countries – Syria, Morocco. All it really comes down to is stopping the spread of Wahhabi-style islam which seems to want to pick a fight with every form of non-Wahhabi Islam. The local populace seems to be on board with that goal – also based on the research.

    According to the various papers, this orthodoxy seems to be growing steadily and most commonly among the middle class ever since the collapse of atheist ideology indoctrination by the communists.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  157. @Wizard of Oz

    There may be pearls of info among the dross, but pawing one’s way through the faeces of a FT agit-prop piece is beyond my endurance. Oh, look-a paywall for Uncle Rupie. No thanks.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  158. @Wizard of Oz

    The case is made by your denigration of his contributions. You are a bellwether, poor chap. As for ‘troll’ it does for a multitude of sins, but really it is only the words. Who is Wiz, really? I don’t know who or what you really are, let alone how or why. I just find most of your contributions the sort of thing I’d expect from a Liberal voting, Murdoch reading, thoroughly brainwashed, Dunning-Krugerite.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  159. antibeast says:
    @B🧐

    Anyway, you did miss something that was mentioned in the articles I found and books like this.

    No, I did not. Western historiography miss the fact that ‘Kazakh Islam’ is different from rest of Central Asia.

    You keep mentioning “Kazakh Islam” and it almost makes it sound as if a bunch of imams are dressing up like shamans or something.

    Because there is a ‘Kazakh Islam’ practiced in Kazakhstan that would be considered ‘unorthodox’ by foreign Muslims.

    Here’s a good summary of the history of ‘Kazakh Islam’:

    https://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Kazakhstan/sub8_4a/entry-4637.html

    RELIGION IN KAZAKHSTAN

    Religions: According to the CIA World Factbook: Muslim 70.2 percent,Christian 26.2 percent (mainly Russian Orthodox), other 0.2 percent, atheist 2.8 percent, unspecified 0.5 percent (2009 est.). According to the Library of Congress in 2006: Some 47 percent of Kazakhs are Muslim, primarily Sunni Muslims; 44 percent are Russian Orthodox, and 2 percent are Protestant. In 1994, it was estimated that 2 percent of the population were Protestant (mainly Baptist), with smaller numbers of Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, and Jewish believers. Reportedly, there is a Kazakh Jewish community in Mongolia.

    Kazakhstan is officially a secular state. The government regulates the activity of religious organizations and licenses religious sects. Although Islam is the dominate religion, Orthodox Christianity, Buddhism, Catholicism and Protestantism are all practiced openly and freely. Leaders of different religions for the most part say they are free to practice their religions as the like although is some suspicion of Christian evangelical groups. Kazakhstan President Nazarbayev likes to offer Kazakhstan as a model of religious tolerance.

    Islam, shamanism and animism have coexisted for a long time. Traditional pre-Islamic beliefs include cults of the sky and fir, ancestor worship, and belief in supernatural forces of good and evil, wood goblins and giants. Many Kazakhs to this day wear beads and talismans for protection against the evil eye. Kazakh shaman are called “bakhys”. They can be either men or women. Unlike traditional Siberian shaman who use a drums during their rituals, “bakhsy” use a bow and violin-like stringed instrument. Clan loyalty is often more important than religion.

    Islam in Kazakhstan

    Kazakhs by tradition are Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi school. They are regarded as only lukewarm Muslims. Islam has never been that important with the nomadic people and still isn’t. This is due to their nomadic lifestyle, animist traditions, distance from the Muslim world, close contacts with Russians and Chinese and the suppression of Islam under Stalin and the Chinese Communists. Scholars have said the lack of strong Islamic sentiments is because of the Kazakh code of honor and law—the “adat”— which was most practical for the steppe than Islamic sharia law.

    As part of the Central Asian population and the Turkic world, Kazakhs are conscious of the role Islam plays in their identity, and there is strong public pressure to increase the role that faith plays in society. At the same time, the roots of Islam in many segments of Kazakh society are not as deep as they are in neighboring countries. Many of the Kazakh nomads, for instance, did not become Muslims until the eighteenth or even the nineteenth century, and urban Russified Kazakhs, who by some counts constitute as much as 40 percent of the indigenous population, profess discomfort with some aspects of the religion even as they recognize it as part of their national heritage. [Source: Library of Congress, March 1996 *]

    Kazakhs Muslims practice ground burials, have an Islamic wedding ceremony and celebrate Muslim holidays. But that is often as their faith goes. They d not regularly attend mosques, fast during Ramadan, pray five times a day Scholars have that this was because Islam was to rigid and restrictive and that their code of honor and law, the “adat”, was most practical for the steppe than Islamic sharia law. Attending a mosques was not possible for nomads so religious customs were taught with in the family.

    Kazakh Islam

    Because the Muslims of Kazakhstan developed their religion in isolation from the rest of the Islamic world, there are significant differences from conventional Sunni and Shia practices. For example, the teachings of the Quran are much less central to the Kazakh version of Islam than in other parts of the Muslim world. Kazakhs are not regarded as very devout or conservative. They drink a lot and don’t regularly pray. In many communities you don’t see mosques or here muezzins. Kazakhstan doesn’t have powerful conservative Muslim groups and is not threatened by Muslim extremist groups as is the case in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

    Many Kazakhs did not covert to Islam until the 19th century and even after the did the maintained their traditional non-Muslim beliefs. Almost no Kazakh women cover their faces and many don’t even cover their hair. Soviet authorities attempted to encourage a controlled form of Islam as a unifying force in the Central Asian societies while at the same time stifling the expression of religious beliefs.

    History of Islam in Kazakhstan

    Islam first appeared in Kazakhstan in the 8th and 9th centuries during the Arab conquest of Central Asia. It became the predominate religion of the Kazakh people after the Kazakh khanate was established in the 15th century. Islam grew stronger under Russian rule because the czarist government encouraged the Kazakhs to become practicing Muslim as part of their effort to bring Kazakhstan under czarist control. Many mosques and madrassahs (religious schools) were built during this time.

    During the Soviet era, few Kazakhs attended mosques and read the Koran. Mullahs were persecuted and sometimes executed. One of the few working mosques in Almaty had a small wooden minaret crowned with a tin crescent. At prayer time a muezzin climbed to the top and called the faithful to prayer.

    There has been a religious revival in Kazakhstan since the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991. Already in 1991, some 170 mosques were operating, more than half of them newly built; at that time, and an estimated 230 Muslim communities were active in Kazakhstan The number of mosques and madrassahs increased from 46 in 1988 to 1,623 in 2002. Many of them have been built with money other Muslim countries, particularly Turkey, the rich Gulf states, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

    But the revival has been more low key than ones in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. One imam told National Geographic, “I wouldn’t like to see my daughter suffering under a veil.” Because so many trained imam and mullahs were killed off or repressed in the Soviet and so few new ones were trained, elderly men who could read Arabic fulfilled their duties after Kazakhstan independence.

    Islam and the State in Kazakhstan

    Kazakhstan has been able to avoid trouble with Muslim extremists. The government has passed tough laws that restricts religious activity not sanctioned by government. The senior Muslim cleric. the Grand Mufti, is picked by the government. An effort by local imam in 2002 to challenge the current Grand Mufti, Absattar Derbisali, largely on the grounds that he lacked religious credentials, was put down by government security y forces,

    In 1990 Nazarbayev, then party first secretary of the Kazakh Republic of the Soviet Union, created a state basis for Islam by removing Kazakhstan from the authority of the Muslim Board of Central Asia, the Soviet-approved and politically oriented religious administration for all of Central Asia. Instead, Nazarbayev created a separate muftiate, or religious authority, for Kazakh Muslims. However, Nazarbayev’s choice of Ratbek hadji Nysanbayev to be the first Kazakh mufti proved an unpopular one. Accusing him of financial irregularities, religious mispractice, and collaboration with the Soviet and Kazakhstani state security apparatus, a group of believers from the nationalist Alash political party attempted unsuccessfully to replace the mufti in December 1991. [Source: Library of Congress, March 1996 *]

    With an eye toward the Islamic governments of nearby Iran and Afghanistan, the writers of the 1993 constitution specifically forbade religious political parties. The 1995 constitution forbids organizations that seek to stimulate racial, political, or religious discord, and imposes strict governmental control on foreign religious organizations. As did its predecessor, the 1995 constitution stipulates that Kazakhstan is a secular state; thus, Kazakhstan is the only Central Asian state whose constitution does not assign a special status to Islam. This position was based on the Nazarbayev government’s foreign policy as much as on domestic considerations. Aware of the potential for investment from the Muslim countries of the Middle East, Nazarbayev visited Iran, Turkey, and Saudia Arabia; at the same time, however, he preferred to cast Kazakhstan as a bridge between the Muslim East and the Christian West. For example, he initially accepted only observer status in the Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO), all of whose member nations are predominantly Muslim. The president’s first trip to the Muslim holy city of Mecca, which did not occur until 1994, was part of an itinerary that also included a visit to Pope John Paul II in the Vatican.

    By the mid-1990s, Nazarbayev had begun occasionally to refer to Allah in his speeches, but he had not permitted any of the Islamic festivals to become public holidays, as they had elsewhere in Central Asia. However, certain pre-Islamic holidays such as the spring festival Navruz and the summer festival Kymyzuryndyk were reintroduced in 1995.

    There you have it.

    The Kazakhs are not as ‘Orthodox Muslim’ as Westerners misjudge them to be while folk Tengrism is still very much a part of their Turco-Mongol ethno-cultural identity.

    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @B🧐
  160. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    If that is what you meant then it makes sense, I have read of similar types of syncretic adoptions by various Muslim groups on the periphery, like a deeply rooted practice of black magic in parts of Africa among Muslims.

    I would like to mention that your source actually doesn’t contradict mine. If you look at the various references, you can see many of them are from the 1990s, not long after communism. It’s been a quarter century since many of those references and everything I mentioned is in sources that are within the last five years – I specifically avoided sources that would be considered behind the times. Again, all the evidence (whether opinion polls or other metrics) points to it moving in one direction and not the other – the increase of religious affiliation and trend towards islamic orthodoxy (not necessarily political or extremist Islam – that seems to be generally marginalized thus far) among the growing middle class…partially brought about by the very same modernization that is increasingly reducing nomadic culture.

    For instance, your citation about an imam not wanting his daughter to wear a veil contrasted with this citation that I found from a book published in 2018 (pg 122) simply by looking to find stuff on whether women are increasingly wearing the hijab/scarf/veil or not.

    As a professor of philosophy at the Kazakh National University of Almaty, Saniya Edelbay wrote in her article about culture and Islam that she had witnessed the number of female students wearing the hijab (headscarf) increase in recent years, not just in her classes but in other departments as well, such as philosophy, political science, international relations, and economics. Culturally, she noted that the hijab is not part of the traditional attire that Kazakh women wear. Specialists suggest that the young people, especially young women, strive to study and to practice Islam, but it is very hard to draw a line that separates cultural traditions from religious practices in Kazakhstan. “Kazakh national traditions are closely connected with religious ones. Islam penetrated the elements of Kazakh nomadic tradition” (Edelbay 2012, 123). Edel-bay argues that it became a challenge to balance and settle the differences between Islam and traditions. The contradictions between the two mostly become visible in relation to the hijab. President Nursultan Nazarbayev criticized the new trend of women wearing the hijab.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=jgRCDwAAQBAJ&pg=RA2-PA122&lpg=RA2-PA122&dq=increase+hijab+kazakhstan&source=bl&ots=BO_2ssGIK_&sig=ACfU3U3pLxCLb_ynigkaUtXyP-BqzVLLYg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj0pcWz8bL1AhV9B50JHa2FCk4Q6AF6BAgWEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    And again, we are not discussing which way it should go (it’s obvious the elite don’t like the hijab for instance, as cited above), simply where it is actually going.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  161. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    For instance, they celebrate “Kurban Ait” as an official holiday now whereas your source was saying that Nazarbayev had not allowed any Muslim holidays to become publicly recognized ones.
    https://www.holidays-info.com/kazakhstan/holidays/2022/

    This is what it coincides with across the rest of the Muslim world.
    https://www.officeholidays.com/holidays/kazakhstan/eid-al-adha

  162. @mulga mumblebrain

    It is mildly interesting when you sound less like an apprentice Wolf Warrior member of your team and more like a misfit in a a conventional moderately educated upper middle class family. I won’t spend much time speculating because it seems unlikely to cure your most blatant offence which is to use insult to distract attention from your complete inability to make a case for – in this instance – according credibility to the venal shill Pepe Escobar. Apart from what I have posted about the real London Kazakhstan connection it strikes me as odd that Pepe is so careless about showing any real familiarity with his subject that the word “uranium” doesn’t appear in his article (or comments). Is it not the most important thing to know about Kazakhstan that it supplies 40% of the world’s uranium? That is, after all, more than the percentage of the world oil market of OPEC and Russia combined.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  163. @mulga mumblebrain

    Can’t take it, huh? The best genes Down Under were sacrificed at Gallipoli on behalf of another of Jennie Jacobsohn’s infantile son when he was First Lord of the Admiralty.

  164. antibeast says:
    @B🧐

    Since 2017, Kazakhstan has banned Kazakh female students from wearing hijab inside all schools — public or private — but not outside of schools. Before this ban, the wearing of hijab had been increasing due to the religious influence of foreign Imams who flocked to the newly-independent post-Soviet Central Asian Republic in the 1990s and early 2000s.

    However, Kazakh women are still considered ‘liberated’ from any Islamic constraints that they are free enough to express their Turco-Mongol ethno-cultural identity through their salutary fashion, music, arts and lifestyles, as shown in the music video below:

    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @Commentator Mike
  165. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    It takes a few minutes of searching to conclude this is a familiar pattern. This is the initial shot across the bow as the elite realize which way the wind is blowing. It seems countries as varied as Tunisia to Turkey have been rescinded their previous bans on the hijab. Apparently Uzbekistan was firing imams complaining about the ban in 2018.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uzbekistan-islam-hijab-idUSKCN1LQ0VP

    To also rescind the ban recently.
    https://asiaplustj.info/en/news/centralasia/20210706/uzbekistan-lifts-ban-on-wearing-hijab-in-public-places

    Women in makeup and dancing in videos is not unheard of in the Muslim world. What you posted is tame compared to belly dancing in Egypt.

    • Replies: @Espadachin..
  166. @antibeast

    The Iberians didn’t succumb spiritually to Islam after the Moorish Conquest nor did the Greeks and Armenians to the Ottoman Turks. The Iberians would later mount the reconquista to recover the Iberian Peninsula while the Greeks and Armenians recovered part of their ancestral homelands back from the Turks with their spiritual identities intact.

    They did that on the basis of their Christian culture. Neither Islam or Christianity produced “slavery”, considering how much noble warfighting aristocracy is founded on both religions. This fantasy was invented by 19th century “thinkers” and other people without jobs, moping around in European cafes.

  167. @antibeast

    Kazakh women are very beautiful; they have the best of European and Asian genes in the mix. I once attended an international cultural event in Malaysia where Khazakstan, unlike the other countries, sent an entirely female delegation and they were stupendously good looking. The city mayor who was the MC said over the PA that he had never seen such beautiful women, to the chagrin of all the other delegates including the Malaysian ones. They truly surpassed the European and Asian women in looks, charm, bearing, talent and the show – all the other women, from Russian, Polish to Vietnamese, Indonesian, could only hold their heads down as they knew they were totally outclassed; and women know and show it.

    More about what makes them oh so …

    https://lifearoundasia.com/kazakh-girls/

    • Agree: Hacienda
    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @B🧐
  168. Jazman says:
    @mulga mumblebrain

    Excellent comment Mulga , Djokovic will fight Austfalia tyrants to the end . Hope he win and tell them fuck off not coming here last victory

  169. antibeast says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Aside from their exotic Eurasian good looks, here’s another side to their traditional role as female warriors in the Turco-Mongol tradition:

    With their fiercely independent ethos, Kazakh women stand out in the whole Islamic World where passive burka-wearing Muslim women are treated by Muslim men as nothing more than chattel.

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
  170. Bill says:
    @Showmethereal

    On the contrary, the “Islamic Golden Age” is rammed down the throats of Europeans at every opportunity. Furthermore, the Islamic Golden Age was neither particularly Islamic nor particularly Golden.

  171. @anonymous

    Perhaps the Islamic civilisation has provided some good in such human endeavours

    https://graduateway.com/the-rise-of-islam-and-its-contributions-to-world-history/

    And it happened long ago, with very little doing today or in recent centuries.

  172. @Bill

    Hatred of Islam (and other races/religions frankly) shouldn’t distract from the facts of history. I hate European imperialism (as opposed to Europe/Europeans) – but I can’t deny the fact that the Industrial Revolution started there. You all should try it…

  173. B🧐 says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Wow – very striking indeed!

  174. @mulga mumblebrain

    The FT has nothing to do with Murdoch. Moreover, if you had attempted to enlighten yourself there is no need to “paw” your way through the FT piece. It is a podcast as well as in print.

  175. Seraphim says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    How can you refrain laughing when you hear people who barely know where Kazakhstan is ‘knows’ better than the journalist who crisscrossed Eurasia for three decades now, covering the most important events, gaining an intimate knowledge of the situations and people who he’s talking about, making predictions which came true and is a highly intelligent, cultured man with a large horizon, which is hardly the case with many ‘Wizards’ (especially from Oz).

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  176. Malla says:

    Erdogan’s neo-Ottomanism – which comes with massive cheerleading by his Muslim Brotherhood base – essentially has nothing to do with the pan-Turanic drive, which is a racialist movement predicating domination by relatively ‘pure’ Turks.

    Ottoman influence in Central Asia is old. Indeed during WW2 and earlier, the Japanese Empire thought they could create a friendly Turko Empire in Central Asia as a second bulwark against the Soviets and thus the spread of Communism in East Asia, their primary goal at that time.. Indeed Abdul Kareem, the descendant of the Ottoman Sultans was in Japan at that time. The Japanese Empire planned to create a pan Central Asian Turkic State by liberating the Turkish peoples from the USSR and make Abdul Kareem the ruler so that they could be an ally and form a bulwark against a common threat.
    At that time in Xinjiang things were a bit messy as along with Pan Turkish groups some Pan-Islamist groups were operating there along with Communist agents etc… China was divided into warlords at that time, and Xinjinag was then ruled by a Han warlord Yang Zengxin. He was a tolerant guy so got along with the native Uyghurs reasonably well. Interestingly Gansu, the province of China proper next door was ruled by Hui Muslim Ma family (Ma Clique) warlords.
    Yang was later replaced by Jun Shuren, another Han leader of Xinjiang, who was far more oppressive when dealing with the local Uyghurs. He got involved in the invasion of a semi-autonomous region of China known as the Kumul Khanate, one of the remnants of the Mongol Khanates who appealed to the Ma family of Gansu for aid and they obliged. They sent an invasion force into Xinjiang from Gansu. They had the support of the KMT but interestingly they had some Japanese officers in their army.
    Even more interesting, the War Lord of Xinjiang, Jun Shuren recruited many White (anti-Communist) Nationalist Russians in his army but at the same time received help from Soviet Russia too!! So you had Soviet support along with anti-Communist White Russian troops of Jun Shuren’s Xinjiang Army fighting KMT supported and Japanese officer led troops of the Hui Muslim Ma warlord family!!!! Later with the help of White Russians, Jun Shuren was replaced in a coup. The Uighur rose up, rebelled and formed their own independent state called the East Turkestan Republic. They saw the Han and even the Hui as enemies and wanted unification with the other Turkic peoples of Central Asia under Soviet Occupation.
    The Soviets were themselves facing their own Central Asian problems and had to put down many rebellions of native Central Asians against foreign Soviet rule, such as the Basmachi Rebellion by Central Asians against the Soviet State which lasted from 1917 till 1934. And guess who took part in this liberation movement of the Central Asian Turkic peoples against the Soviets, Enver Pasha of the Young Turks movement. He was involved in the Armenian genocide BTW. In Central Asia he began to call himself “Commander in Chief of all Armies of Islam and Emir of Turkestan”.
    Earlier during Qing Dynasty China, there was a revolt in Xinjiang known as the Dzungar revolt followed by the Dzungar Genocide committed by the Chinese. There was also the Kingdom of Yettishar also known as Kashgaria, a Sunni Muslim Turkic state that existed in Xinjiang between 1865 and 1877 during the Dungan Revolt against Qing dynasty China. In 1873, the state was recognized by the Ottoman Empire as a vassal and the Ottomans supported their struggle against the Chinese with weapons and money. However in 1877, Chinese Imperial troops entered Kashgar crushing all resistance and bringing the area under Chinese rule.
    Anyways later in the 1930s, many Turks like Muhsin Capanolu supported all these Turkic/ Turanist rebellions against the Soviets and the Han Chinese who was a Pan-Turkic but Ataturk supported the Chinese Nationalists in crushing the Uighurs. However Afghan King Zahir Shah supported East Turkestan, indeed an Afghan battalion fought to the last man in defending this East Turkestan Republic from the Chinese. In the Battle of Kashgar in 1933 there were multiple factions fighting each other with atrocities on all sides. Villages torched and all that. Some reports come from Georg Vasel a German Nazi Engineer in the area who was building airports. Remember the Third Reich Germans were allies of the Chinese Nationalists at this time. There were Christian missionaries, Swedes (Sven Hedin) and even Tawfiq Bay, a Syrian Arab
    who was close to the Ibn Sauds!! Tawfiq Bay would be involved in the Uighur independence struggle against the Chinese in the Battle of Kashgar. Both the KMT Chinese and the Soviets opposed Uighur independence and supported crushing it mercilessly. However some Japanese Generals of the Kwatung Army (independent from Tokyo) were seeing an opportunity of a second buffer state in between Soviet Russia and China to prevent the spread of Communism into East Asia and thus becoming a threat to Japan.

  177. B🧐 says:
    @Malla

    Thanks for this post! What a mess! A lot of good interesting tangents and twists to research into further.

    One thing that I just learned was that the presence of Uyghurs and Kazakhs in Xinjiang is mostly due to the Dzungar eradication by Imperial China and then the emptied area ended up being resettled with those people. It seems one major event was when the Kazakhs were escaping a similar fate at the hands of the Soviets before WW2 from an engineered famine.

    https://central.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_ca/features/2019/03/11/feature-02

    https://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/acta/32/06Nurtazina.pdf

    This region is home to a very convoluted piece of history that very few people likely know about.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  178. @sally

    I think you are exactly correct, though plenty of people in public office are facilitating this dynamic. At any rate, your general surmise, with which I agree, gives the lie to all the recent pseudo-conservative ravings about “Marxism.”

  179. Seraphim says:
    @B🧐

    It’s good that finally someone stated the obvious: Uighurs are not the natives of Xingjiang!

    • Replies: @B🧐
  180. B🧐 says:
    @Seraphim

    Yeah – well, neither are the Chinese – apparently the real natives got wiped out!

    Another whacky thing I just read – apparently the British tried to install a friendly king of that region- who was a British guy – who was a pickle magnate – who converted to Islam! They were going to call it Islamestan!

    https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2188216/last-king-xinjiang-how-bertram-sheldrake-went

    This is getting even better (and somewhat hilarious) by the minute!

    • LOL: Malla
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @CosmicMythos
  181. @Malla

    Fascinating, thanks!

    • Agree: B🧐
  182. @B🧐

    This is how the spanish taxes are wasted ?

    Lol Fuck off mortadelo

  183. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    The Uighur rose up, rebelled and formed their own independent state called the East Turkestan Republic. They saw the Han and even the Hui as enemies and wanted unification with the other Turkic peoples of Central Asia under Soviet Occupation.

    That was before WWII. A second ETR became a satellite State of the USSR which was ‘invented’ by the Soviet Turkologists. China’s PLA destroyed the second ETR right after the founding of PRC in 1949.

    One thing that I would like to add is that the Hui Muslims themselves are the Sinicized descendants of Central Asians who had settled in China during the reign of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty. The Manchu Qing had depopulated Dzungaria (upper Xinjiang) after committing the Dzungar Genocide against the Oirat Mongols after conquering Xinjiang. The Uyghurs at the time were called ‘Taranchis’ because they lived in the oases towns in the Tarim Basin (lower Xinjiang). The Manchu Qing then merged Dzungaria with the Tarim Basin to create the province of Xinjiang, with its capital in Urumqi which was founded by the Chinese as early as the Tang Dynasty. That’s when large numbers of Huis and Hans (called ‘Dungans’) started settling in Dzungaria, which broke out centuries later in the Dungan Revolts against the Manchu Qing by the time of the Opium Wars. Those ‘Dungans’ then fled China to other parts of Central Asia where they’re still present in large numbers. In the meantime, large numbers of Uyghurs had moved into Dzungaria (upper Xinjiang) left vacated by the fleeing Dungans. That was the only time the Uyghurs ever became the ethnic majority of Xinjiang, until the Hans displaced them after the founding of the PRC in 1949.

    Xinjiang itself didn’t exist until its creation by the Manchu Qing and officially called the ‘Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region’ by the PRC. By granting the Uyghurs their own autonomous region, the CCP had shown a more tolerant attitude towards Muslims which attracted lots of Kazakhs and Krygz fleeing from Soviet persecution who had also settled in Xinjiang.

    Contrary to Western propaganda, China has not been in any way persecuting Muslims as the Huis themselves are the descendants of the first Chinese converts to Islam after Arab traders started arriving in China via the Maritime Silk Road, in the sea port city of Quanzhou in Fujian where the oldest Chinese Mosque is located. The KMT Army was led by the Hui Muslims under the Ma clique who fought against the separatist Uyghur-led ETR before WWII. And that’s why the Uyghurs don’t like the Huis even both are Muslims! LOL!

  184. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    The Uighur rose up, rebelled and formed their own independent state called the East Turkestan Republic. They saw the Han and even the Hui as enemies and wanted unification with the other Turkic peoples of Central Asia under Soviet Occupation.

    That was before WWII. A second ETR became a satellite State of the USSR which was ‘invented’ by Soviet Turkologists but was later destroyed by the PLA right after the founding of PRC in 1949.

    One thing that I would like to add is that the Hui Muslims themselves are the Sinicized descendants of Central Asians who had settled in China during the reign of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty. The Manchu Qing had depopulated Dzungaria (upper Xinjiang) after committing the Dzungar Genocide against the Oirat Mongols during the conquest of Xinjiang. The Uyghurs at the time were called ‘Taranchis’ because they lived in the oases towns in the Tarim Basin (lower Xinjiang). The Manchu Qing then merged Dzungaria with the Tarim Basin to create the province of Xinjiang, with its capital in Urumqi which was founded by the Chinese as early as the Tang Dynasty. That’s when large numbers of Huis and Hans (called ‘Dungans’) started settling in Dzungaria, which broke out centuries later in the Dungan Revolts against the Manchu Qing by the time of the Opium Wars. Those ‘Dungans’ then fled China to other parts of Central Asia where they’re still present in large numbers. In the meantime, large numbers of Uyghurs had moved into Dzungaria (upper Xinjiang) left vacated by the fleeing Dungans. That was the only time the Uyghurs ever became the ethnic majority of Xinjiang, until the Hans displaced them after the founding of the PRC in 1949.

    Xinjiang itself didn’t exist until its creation by the Manchu Qing and officially called the ‘Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region’ by the PRC. By granting the Uyghurs their own autonomous region, the CCP had shown a more tolerant attitude towards Muslims which attracted lots of Kazakhs and Krygz fleeing from Soviet persecution who had also settled in Xinjiang.

    Contrary to Western propaganda, China has not been in any way persecuting Muslims as the Huis themselves are the descendants of the first Chinese converts to Islam after Arab traders started arriving in China via the Maritime Silk Road, in the sea port city of Quanzhou in Fujian where the oldest Chinese Mosque is located. The KMT Army was led by the Hui Muslims under the Ma clique who fought against the separatist Uyghur-led ETR before WWII. And that’s why the Uyghurs don’t like the Huis even both are Muslims! LOL!

    • Replies: @Malla
  185. To the alphabet organizations reading this web i can asure you that this spaniard dog is doing an incredible job guarding the spanish sphere of any sign of antisemitism , conspiracy theories and promoting the more demented Nato vassalage denigrating chinese and russians partnership .

    maybe its the time to ask your superiors A salary increase dont you think B ? i can even recommend you , not even the jews employed in 4 chan are doing it so profesionally

  186. B🧐 says:
    @Malla

    Another thing I just learned, the Tang Dynasty was all “westward ho!” in the 8th century and expanding westward – being American, I get that itch – Manifest Destiny and what not.

    Looks like they were stopped by those pesky Arabs who were expanding East.

    This region looks like one of the most hotly contested pieces of real estate that most people have never ever heard of. Wow!

    • Replies: @Malla
  187. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Thanks for all that info.

    One thing that I would like to add is that the Hui Muslims themselves are the Sinicized descendants of Central Asians who had settled in China during the reign of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty.

    I thought Hui were just Han Chinese who converted to Islam.

    And that’s why the Uyghurs don’t like the Huis even both are Muslims!

    Yeah, interesting stuff.

    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @antibeast
  188. B🧐 says:
    @Malla

    I just read that one theory of the origins of the Hui are from the Arab mercenaries sent by the Abbasids to back the Tang Dynasty during the An Lushan revolt. Apparently, according to this theory, they helped recapture that area for a grateful emperor who was cool with them settling down in the region and then – as wandering military men are wont to do – got down with the local females – also known as putting the Tang in poontang!

    I found this paper on an analysis of the accuracy of that theory.
    For suppressing the rebellion, the Tang dynasty asked for help from Arabs and others. After the rebellion was over, these foreign soldiers remained in China. The Tang granted a place called Shayuan, south of Changan, as a special settlement for them. Since then, this Shayuan has been a home for the Hui () people who believe in Islam. (Zhang 1993: 15) Here Zhang regards the Arab soldiers who came to China at that time as the remote ancestors of Chinese Muslims.
    https://toyo-bunko.repo.nii.ac.jp/?action=repository_action_common_download&item_id=3149&item_no=1&attribute_id=22&file_no=1

    • Replies: @Malla
  189. Malla says:
    @B🧐

    Another thing I just learned, the Tang Dynasty was all “westward ho!” in the 8th century and expanding westward

    Well Qing China’s similar manifest destiny in the 18th century nearly led to a war with the Afghans, a possible major war in between the Qimg Dynasty China and the mighty Afghan Duranni Empire. That too it was maybe related to Xinjiang. It was averted in the last minute. During the time of Afghan warrior King Ahmed Shah Durrani (Abdali), founder of the Durrani Empire


    Ahmed Shah Durrani

    Interestingly he could be considered the founder of Afghanistan as we know it today, the guy led seven invasions into India to loot out North India, destroy Temples of lowly Hindu non believer Kaffirs (my own native place Mathura felt his wrath, Hindus there still curse him), enslaved loads of Indians, he also defeated the mighty Indian Hindu Maratha Empire, a ferocious battle which led to the death and enslavement of a large part of the Maratha aristocracy. Abdali won the wars with the Marathas but it weakened him considerably. His excesses in the Punjab led to the rise of Emperor Ranjit Singh and his Sikh empire. The Sikhs would later conquer a lot of Afghan territory and Sikhs in the British Indian Army loved to fight their traditional enemy, the Afghans. In the Battle of Saragarhi, some 21 soldiers of the 36th Sikh regiment of the British Indian Army manning, a British Empire frontier defence line (British Empire’s Hadrian Wall with wild Afghanistan) Communication office, fought out with 12000-24000 Afghan tribesmen, refused to surrender and went fighting down to the last man. Yeah 21 Sikhs fought out 12000 to 2400 Afghan tribesmen to the last.
    Alarmed by the expansion of China up to the western border of Kazakhstan, Afghan Padshah Ahmad Shah Durrani (Abdali) attempted to rally neighbouring Muslim khanates and the Kazakhs to unite and attack China, to liberate its western Muslim subjects (Uyghurs) from Chinese control. The Afghan Durrani Empire was the second largest empire, behind the Ottoman Empire in the entire Islamic World, at that time. According to the report of Valikhanov, the famous Kazakh scholar, ethnographer and historian such Central Asian rulers as Irdana of Khokand and Tashkent, Fadil Bi of Khojent and Uratepe, and a Sultan of the Kazaks, had earlier sent a letter to Ahmad Shah Duranni to ask him “to deliver the Muslim world from attack of non-believers” here referring to the Chinese expansion into Central Asian Muslim territory. Ahmad Shah banned trade with China and dispatched troops to Kokand. Ahmad Shah Durrani was extremely upset at the murder of Muslim saints, the Kashghar Khojas. In the spring of 1763 Afghan troops were deployed in the area between Khokand and Tashkent, and Ahmad shah dispatched letters to many leaders of Islamic countries urging them to join in the holy war against the Chinese kaffirs. According to Valikhanov this provoked at least one revolt in 1765 in a town called Ush within Kashgharia itself where Muslims had risen against the Chinese with expectation of receiving help from the wider Muslim world.

    This plan for a coordinated attack against Chinese territory also appears in Russian records. According to their reports , Irdana had sent letter to Kazak sultan, Ablai, notifying him that Ahmad Shah’s emissary has arrived in Khokand with a message that Ahmad Shah has agreed to aid Khokand in case of a Chinese attack. A merchant from Khojent who visited Orenburg in January 1764 informed the Russians that Ahmad Shah has concentrated one hundred thousand troops to the north of Kandahar in case of war against the Chinese non-believers.The Qing court received similar reports about such military movement in Central Asia and in response in Kashghar, Qing troops were also ready for expedition against Afghanistan.

    • Thanks: ivan
    • Replies: @Malla
  190. Malla says:
    @Malla

    Padshah Ahmad Shah Durrani of Afghanistan was by far the strongest regional force when the Chinese conquered eastern Turkistan and his activities received in Beijing close scrutiny. Afghan Padshah Ahmad Shah Durrani sent a letter to the Qing court in 1762 demanding it withdraw from Muslim territories, and, when this ultimatum was rejected, began to assemble a huge invasion force. Central Asian and Qing sources agree that in late 1762, Ahmad shah of Afghanistan sent an embassy to Beijing with a letter. The Afghan letter stated that “Maratha khan (the Maratha Peshwa of India) had amassed force of several hundred thousands troops to respond to his own seizure of Delhi…… Ahmad shah defeated them, killing over a hundred thousand.”…This had overtones of a veiled threat to the Chinese from the Afghan Emperor.

    The Afghan envoy presented the Chinese Emperor with four splendid horses but failed to make the good impression because he absolutely refuse to perform Kowtow to the Chinese Emperor. The Qing Dynasty Chinese Qianlong emperor dispatched a letter to Afghan ruler instructing him on folly of war with the reminder that he, the Qainlong emperor, is “lord of all under heaven who watches over every thing inside and outside the empire, and who rewards good and punishes evil”.

    Ahmad Shah of Afghanistan massed his troops and corresponded with other Central Asian rulers to raise a united resistance. These efforts came to naught when the Chinese appeared content to stop at Pamirs. but Ahmad shah , in alliance with Bukhara, invaded Badakhshan, killing its ruler Sultan Shah as punishment for betraying two Khoja brothers Burhan ud din and Khoja Jahan to the Chinese kaffirs and dispatched his head to the Qing authorities. However it is believed that Ahmed Shah did want to avoid war if possible because the wars with the Hindu Maratha Empire as well as Sikh rebellions against his rule had taken a heavy toll on his military forces and treasury. Had that not been the case, may be he would have attacked China with his huge army to liberate Eastern Turkistan.

    • Replies: @B🧐
  191. Seraphim says:
    @B🧐

    British meddling in Central Asia was part of the ‘Great Game’.
    ”The Ottoman Empire and the British Empire both recognized Yaqub Beg’s state and supplied him with thousands of guns. British diplomats Robert Barkley Shaw and Thomas Douglas Forsyth to Kashgar in 1868 and 1870 respectively, aroused British interest for Ya’qub’s regime and the British concluded a commercial treaty with the emir in 1874”.

    • Replies: @B🧐
  192. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    I thought Hui were just Han Chinese who converted to Islam.

    Hui Muslims include Hans who converted to Islam as well as Arab, Persian and Central Asians who settled down and inter-married with Hans. That’s why they look like ‘Han Chinese’ today even though they practice a Sinicized version of Hui Islam.

    The Hui Muslims have been around in China for five long centuries before the Uyghur Buddhists in the Tarim Basin converted to Turkic Islam after the expansionist Islamic Empires of Central Asia reached Xinjiang in the 15th century. That’s how Turkic Islam came to displace Buddhism in Xinjiang, until the arrival of the Oirat Mongols who suppressed Turkic Islam in favor of Tibetan Buddhism.

    Ironically, the Manchu Qing Conquest and Genocide of Dzungaria reversed this process of de-Islamicization by settling Hui Muslims and promoting re-Islamicization in Xinjiang as a diplomatic strategy of appeasing the powerful Muslim Empires in Central Asia whose expansionist history was stopped only by the arrival of the British and Russia Empires during the Great Game of the 19th century.

    The subsequent Russian colonization de-Turkified Central Asia while the Soviet Union later de-Islamicized the whole region by creating a set of Soviet Central Asian Republics. After the collapse of the USSR, the ex-Soviet Republics of Central Asia have successfully transitioned into becoming modern secular nation-states while Iran and Afghanistan fell into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists who has been seeking to recreate their medieval Islamic Empires based on applying Shariah Law to their Islamic States and Societies.

  193. @antibeast

    Indeed. Islam was accepted in China many centuries before Uighurs converted. The oldest standing mosque in China is thousands of miles away from Xinjiang in Fujian Province.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Malla
  194. antibeast says:
    @Showmethereal

    Hui Islam became established in Quanzhou, Guangzhou, Xi’an, etc. by way of cultural exchange and peaceful trade with Arab traders who settled in these entreport cities along the maritime and overland Silk Roads. In contrast, Turkic Islam entered Xinjiang by way of military conquest and political violence after the Kara-Khanids destroyed the Indo-Iranian Buddhist Kingdom of Khotan in 1000CE. By the 15th century, the Timurids managed to invade Xinjiang and forcibly convert the last remaining Buddhists to Turkic Islam.

    With the last Ginghisid Mongols having converted to Turkic Islam, the next few centuries from the 16th to the 19th centuries saw various Islamic States and Empires fight savagely over turf in Central Asia and expand violently across West and South Asia. Fortunately for China, the Manchu Qing had already succeeded in annexing Xinjiang, sparing it from the bloody turf wars engulfing the region which ceased only after the Russian Empire colonized Central Asia.

    This explains why China is so hostile to the presence of Turkic Islam in Xinjiang which represents the ‘conquest culture’ of defunct Islamic Empires of medieval Central Asia.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @Philip Owen
  195. B🧐 says:
    @Seraphim

    But of course! The great British pastime, poking the bear while drinking some tea…and taking a break to sell some drugs to the Chinese!

  196. B🧐 says:
    @Malla

    Man, did not know the Afghans were involved to such an extent in the area – I knew a little bit about their involvement in India but not in Central Asia

    Qainlong emperor: I’m the “lord of all under heaven who watches over every thing inside and outside the empire, and who rewards good and punishes evil”.

    British pull up with boats and guns: “yeah, we’d like to sell your plentiful folks cheap drugs…or else.”

    We know how that conversation went.

    • Replies: @CosmicMythos
    , @Malla
  197. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    From all I’m seeing here what we know is that the various Chinese kingdoms have attempted to expand east as far back as the Tang (often being sidelined in the attempt by their own vicious civil wars). You just said the Qing annexed Xinjiang and stated earlier that they cleared out the Dzungars in a genocide. How does this not represent a conquest culture?

    It seems to me, that you are saying – your conquest culture bad, my conquest culture good.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m from America and we wouldn’t have our territory if not for our conquest culture in the same timeframe…well maybe except for Alaska which was due to a great bargain between us and Russian conquest culture.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Showmethereal
  198. @B🧐

    apparently the real natives got wiped out!

    There are already more non-Uighur ethnics in Xinjiang, than Uighurs. The largest group are already, even as we speak, the Han, but there are substantial numbers of ethnic Mongols, Manchus and Tibetans as well, all from elsewhere in China.

    So there you have it, IMHO, there’s no way that Xinjiang province is forming its own state. Not only will the rest of China not allow it, but the local Xinjiang resident populations won’t either.

    • Agree: B🧐
    • Replies: @B🧐
  199. @B🧐

    We know how that conversation went.

    Would like to point out that that conversation is FAR from over . . .

  200. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Hey thanks anti-beast for this info.

  201. Malla says:
    @Showmethereal

    Islam was accepted in China many centuries before Uighurs converted. The oldest standing mosque in China is thousands of miles away from Xinjiang in Fujian Province.

    Islam was accepted in India, centuries before the Kashmiris and Pakistani ancestors converted, the first mosque in India is thousands of miles away in Kerala in South India. Interestingly the famous rich Somnath Temple priests in the Western coastal state of Gujrat allowed the pre-Islamic Arab merchants, the permission to build a shrine in the compound of their temple, a temple to the Arab pagan god Hubbal. Little did they know that a religion coming from the land of the Arabs would lead to the Somnath Temple itself getting sacked several times and its great wealth looted.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  202. B🧐 says:
    @CosmicMythos

    The best way to establish de facto control of any territory you annex is by establishing “facts on the ground” such as population numbers in your favor. Look up how we did it with the annexation of Texas and then making sure Mexico would not be able to recover the Northwest territories they ceded after the war…by encouraging settlements to tip the population in our favor.

    Although, Mexico may have the last laugh by resettling the area with Mexicans due to our immigration policies.

    • Replies: @emerging majority
  203. Malla says:
    @B🧐

    You will find this even more interesting, the Uyghurs had a huge impact on Indian …yes Indian, culture. Why? Because the original Mughals had come from a place called Moghulistan, which was basically Uzbekistan + Xinjiang + some other central Asian territories. So the Mughals who came and conquered India to create the Mughal Empire were of Uzbek-Uyghur origins.

    Moghulistan Map. Eastern Moghulistan was called Uyghuristan.

    That is why North Indian Kathak Classical Dance is very similar to the dance of Uyghur people. basically a mix of Uyghur, Persian and Hindu influences, most of the stories in the dance are Hindu, mostly stories of Hindu deity Krishna.

    Origin of Indian Kathak-Mughal dance (Uyghur dance)

    Indian Imperial Mughal dance and clothing were extremely similar to the traditional clothing of Uyghurs.
    This is from a epic Indian movie called Mughal-e Azam.

    The guy on the throne (0.40 seconds, 1:07 minutes, 1:44 minutes in the video) with a white/ blondish moustache represents Indian Mughal Emperor Akbar. Check out the costume of the main female dancer (who is singing), very similar to Uyghur traditional clothing, feather on top and all.

    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @antibeast
  204. B🧐 says:
    @Malla

    I knew about the Persian influence – it’s obvious from the architecture and the language of the court and frankly Persian imperial culture influenced everyone in the region just like Chinese imperial culture influenced practically everyone in east Asia. I think most people (like I did) think the Mughals were persianized Mongols (I guess mostly from the name).

  205. @Richard B

    I DID read much of the book and even selected a quotation to show how UTTERLY STUPID it is, designed for obviously feeble minded brats such as yourself. Get a job someday and find out how it works in the real world among grown ups.

    I KNOW that YOU didnt read ANY of it, skimming that short attention span echo chamber mental fantasy cartoon. The “book” (just a ramble) seemed to have literally ZERO CITATIONS which is very odd for anything but a monograph about nothing.

    Imagine that, your bubble got burst on the interwebs. You know what’s REALLY funny? Anyone who profiled your mentality and assumptions could easily destroy a whole bunch of you, because in the real world you’d show up at all the wrong places and the wrong time, trying act out your theatrical fantasy world.

    • Troll: Richard B
  206. antibeast says:
    @B🧐

    China first conquered and annexed the Tarim Basin as far back as the Han Dynasty which fought the Xiongnus for control of the Silk Road. The goal then as it was for the later Tang Dynasty was to secure China’s foreign trade with Persia and Europe, which was constantly being harassed and raided by the Xiongnus during the Han and by the Gokturks during the Tang.

    China was able to not only secure its trade routes via the Silk Road but also to protect the Indo-European Tocharians and Indo-Iranian Khotanese from the bloody imperialist wars in Central Asia. After China lost to the Abassids in the Battle of Talas, the Tang Dynasty retreated from Central Asia, only to get crippled by the An-Lushan Rebellion.

    After the Fall of the Tang, China lost political control of Xinjiang which saw the start of almost a millennia of incessant warfare, between the Arabs, Persians, Turks, Mongols, Afghans, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, etc. By the time the Manchu Qing conquered Xinjiang, the Oirat Mongols had established a powerful nomadic Empire stretching from the Altai Mountains in Mongolia all the way to the Tianshan Mountains in Central Asia. They not only controlled the trade routes of the Silk Road but also posed an existential threat to the Chinese Empire. That’s why the Qing rulers then decided to destroy the Oirat Mongols by allying with the Kazakhs.

    This was in stark contrast to the myopic decision of the Song Dynasty which not only failed to stop the rise of the Mongol Empire but also made the fatal mistake of aiding the Mongols against the Jurchen Jin who were the ancestors of the Manchus. That’s the rationale behind the Manchu Qing Conquest and Genocide of Dzungaria: ‘either destroy first or get destroyed later’. There’s also the cultural element shared by both the Manchus and the Oirat Mongols who were part of the same savage warrior culture of the steppe: ‘either kill first or get killed later’. The Song Dynasty didn’t understand this savage wolf warrior ethos which is a way of life for warrior tribes living by hunting and raiding on the steppe: “I am the Wolf! And you are my Lamb!”

    What the Manchu Qing destroyed was the Oirat Mongols who suppressed Turkic Islam in Xinjiang. The ‘Taranchis’ as the Turkic Muslims living in the Tarim Basin were called back then (later renamed Uyghurs by Soviet Turkologists) aided and abetted the destruction of the Oirat Mongols whom they hated with a vengeance. What the Manchus inadvertently did was to revive Turkic Islam by allowing the ‘Taranchis’ to resettle in Dzungaria, together with Huis and Hans. The resettlement process was part of the Manchu Qing strategy of containing the expansionist Islamic Empires next door in Central Asia.

    By ‘conquest culture’, what I was referring to is ‘Turkic Islam’ which had earlier destroyed the ‘Tocharian’ and ‘Khotanese’ Buddhism which originated in Xinjiang, before being suppressed by the Oirat Mongols. As a ‘conquest culture’, ‘Turkic Islam’ serves as a political ideology for an expansionist imperialist agenda under the guise of a religious tradition. And that’s exactly what happened when Turkic Muslims (now called Uyghurs) rebelled against China twice during the Republican Era, only to be quelled by the KMT Armies led by Hui Muslims in Xinjiang.

    • Thanks: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @B🧐
  207. B🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    No, I get it, it’s just that you are trying to qualify them as a “conquest culture” according to your specific definition when, if we’re being honest, imperial Chinese history is pretty representative of a conquest culture as well – they just have their own justifications for expansion and removal or genociding troublesome people.

    Hey, we did it too. The Turks did it, the Australians did it, the Russians did it. I just don’t buy the idea that the Turkic or Muslim conquest culture is all that different (in the name of a religion as opposed to ethnic interests) especially if everyone here is agreed that the Chinese empire did literally genocide entire people that it was having trouble with. I can pretty much guarantee you that if the Navajo had not accepted their subservient reservation position in their “autonomous” region and kept fighting back, they would likely only exist in history books. That is not pretty, but that is closer to the truth than the inverse.

    We actually had a Great Plains Empire, run by the Comanche, who were similar – raiding was common, horses and archery were the backbone of their military victories (they practically exterminated the Apache). Our conquest culture proved superior and beat theirs. We didn’t even leave them with a reservation – not that they would have particularly wanted one.

    For us to claim theirs was a conquest culture and ours wasn’t is disingenuous.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Philip Owen
  208. @antibeast

    So far as I know Shariah Law is specific to Sunni Islam and not to the Iranian Shias. It’s quite possible that the Mullah’s in Persia also have developed fundamentalist strictures of their own. IMHO, Sunnis and Shiites should never be confused or conflated, all too easy for ignorant Westerners to do.

  209. @B🧐

    Interestingly, though Mexico acquired California, et al, after their successful revolution against the Spanish; the settlers in New Mexico and in California included a negligible proportion of Mestizo Mexicanos; rather Spanish creoles and settlers directly from Spain. So despite their massive numbers, La Raza has no call on California, Arizona, New Mexico or even Texas. BTW: Those Spanish and creole descendants in those states do not particularly welcome the Mexicanos.

    • Replies: @B🧐
  210. @B🧐

    Actually parts of Xinjiang were first ruled by China back in the Han dynasty. That is why a lot of things known about the Parthian Empore is from Chinese writings because they were neighbors and had diplomatic dealings. But yes the Tang had a bigger portion of the area. The biggest portion was during the Qing era. A large part of Kazahkstan was part of China back then. For instance Lake Balkash was part of China. They to this day still find Chinese artifacts in that lake. But those territories were solved. Contrary to the western slander – the PRC is actually contractionist rather than expansionist. The government in Taiwan used to use that against them actually to say they are illegitimate because they negotiated away so much territory. True story.

    • Replies: @B🧐
    , @CosmicMythos
  211. @Malla

    Why does there seem to be such animosity to Islam now when the Mughal era of India seemed to be so advanced for the time?. And I just learned the other day that the wife the Taj Mahal was built for was of partial Persian descent. I did not know that… I figured she was purely local.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  212. B🧐 says:
    @Showmethereal

    And parts of Egypt were ruled by some guy named Alexander a while back – even named a famous city after him – when the Greeks were expansionist. The Han were also expansionist as all empires tend to be. Usually this is a stage after they’ve consolidated themselves internally (one group annexing everyone else) otherwise they are too busy fighting each other to pay attention to expansion. The British empire didn’t get off the ground until they had seriously resolved the conflicts on the island and consolidated Wales and Scotland into the union (Ireland is kind of a weird one and technically not the main island). The biggest hurdle for expansion that I seem to see in China’s history is that they would have some years of relative calm and strength and then some event like a peasant revolt would set off something and before you know it, millions are dead and a few thousand are eaten.

    And it’s like a seesaw, every few centuries, some crazy population imploding event happens that allows outside powers to take advantage of the situation and carve out pieces (whether Russia or Britain or Japan or various Turkic tribes).

    This is a great read I found based on your comment which outlines how the Han Dynasty first expanded into Xinjiang against the tribal confederation that inhabited it known as the Xiongu. It also goes over great detail about what the Chinese learned from that conflict and why that specific region is a strategic choke point for multiple reasons that is integral to China’s security from everything dealing with raids from Central Asia to maintaining the
    https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/lessons-from-history-the-han-xiongnu-war-and-modern-china

    One of the major battles which caused the Xiongnu to fracture and then the southern division to become vassals of the Chinese emperor.

    And I will agree from what I’m reading that current China seems not to be expansionist (land wise). With it being able to keep much of the territory gained during Qing expansion – the largest portion seeming to be that pesky Tibetan empire (Qing invasion of Vietnam and Burma seemed to be a failure). Of course there seem to be some minor border disputes or regarding islands with its neighbors, but with a country that size, that’s expected.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  213. B🧐 says:
    @emerging majority

    They certainly don’t now – we moved tons of Europeans into those territories. As I said, facts on the ground.

  214. antibeast says:
    @B🧐

    For us to claim theirs was a conquest culture and ours wasn’t is disingenuous.

    I never claimed so. What I claimed is that ‘Turkic Islam’ is also a ‘conquest culture’ as was the ‘Imperialist Expansionism’ of the Manchu Qing who feared the ‘Existential Threat’ of the Oirat Mongols which was used as the military justification for the 18th century Manchu Conquest and Genocide of Dzungaria, which is similar to the 19th century Anglo-American Conquest and Genocide of the Native American tribes who were allied to the British Empire during the War of 1812.

    What I was trying to disabuse is the false notion that ‘Turkic Islam’ is a religious tradition being persecuted by the Chinese State by hiding its political history of being a ‘conquest culture’ imposed as a result of military conquest and political violence by defunct Islamic Empires in Central Asia. Long before ‘Turkic Islam’ entered Xinjiang, China already had centuries of ‘Hui Islam’ which is a religious tradition inherited by the Chinese descendants of Muslim traders who had settled and intermixed in China during the past 1,300 years.

    My main point in this whole exercise is not to belabor the notion of ‘Turkic Islam’ as a ‘conquest culture’ but to point out that there two versions of Islam in China which are very different from each other: ‘Turkic Islam’ and ‘Hui Islam’, the former being a ‘conquest culture’ which is now being ‘excised’ from China while the latter is a ‘religious tradition which had long ago enjoyed official patronage in China.

    • Replies: @C🧐
  215. C🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    I see, thanks for the clarifications. I looked further into the history of Islam in China and was fairly surprised at finding that – and there seems to be a legendary or mythical element to it – but one of Muhammad’s personal friends is said to have died in China, I guess he served as an ambassador or in some related position as a sort of envoy to the Chinese during the Umayyads. Some Muslims from even outside China come to visit the gravesite and it seems to be attached to one of the large mosques there.

  216. @B🧐

    Actually – most of Chinese “expansion” has come because of attacks by foreign tribes. In most cases – they were integrated into China after they were defeated. Not really the same as the Greeks who crossed into separate continents. I don’t recall reading Egyptians trying to take over Greece – and the Greeks responding…

    • Replies: @C🧐
  217. @Seraphim

    You entirely miss the point which is not surprising to anyone who has read your comments over several years. The point is about his honesty and you only add to the weight of my doubts about him when you suggest that he has the opportunity to know the facts. He is also careless and thus lacking respect for his readers as I have shown.

    No doubt as a Russian shill Pepe Escobar would be embarrassed by the strength of this remarkably scholarly and dignified article by the UK Defence Secretary which I was alerted to by a Ukrainian and Russian speaking professor who knows 10 times as much about Ukraine and Russia as any of the ranters on UR – and, I’m afraid, Ron Unz himself.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine

  218. C🧐 says:
    @showmethereal

    There really is no need to justify imperial expansion when everyone else is doing the same. I remember Chinese attempts to expand into Vietnam and Burma as well Korea – I don’t remember reading about attacks on China from those places.

    Lack of more Chinese expansion into other lands can be chalked up to many things, anything from a lack of competence in the endeavor to unfavorable geographical local to – as I mentioned, dealing with interruptions from extremely bloody and devastating civil wars. For instance, in one of the videos I posted about the Battle of Talas, it mentioned the Abbasids took over the Muslim empire after defeating the Umayyads. The transition from one dynasty to the other was relatively swift and required one major battle and then mop up operations. The Abbasids were able to then quickly turn around and engage the Tang past their borderlands. That external expansion in such a quick timeframe wouldn’t have happened if the civil war was like the ones China tends to have where they lose a fifth of the population to disease and starvation.

  219. Malla says:
    @Showmethereal

    Why does there seem to be such animosity to Islam now when the Mughal era of India seemed to be so advanced for the time?.

    I personally do not have much beef with the Mughals or with Islam, my opinion is mixed. But I do not represent the masses in this mentality. Were the Mughals the most advanced? I am not sure, according to Hindus, India was more advanced before the Mughals came and destroyed everything. And even if your claim that the Mughals were more advanced, the British were even more advanced and far far more humane and kind. You suffer from the typical leftist mental disease of seeing all pre-Colonial Empires as benevolent
    The reason many Hindus hate Islam, because they do not consider Islam native but foreign and according to them it has no place in the holy land of Hindus, i.e. the Indian subcontinent. because of centuries of brutality committed on Hindus and Hindus being treated as second class citizens in their own lands. And no, Mughal India was not advanced, not compared to Europe at least. This is a typical leftist lie, which pisses off the masses of Indian people. For Hindus, both the Islamic invaders and the Europeans, were foreign invaders. Simple as that. Why is it hard to understand. It is this crackpot Marxist mentality which drove Western Leftists like Prof Audrey Truscke to try to Whitewash the atrocities of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb.

    Are Rutgers University & Professor Audrey Truschke Hinduphobic?

    As famous Indian journalist Priyanka Deo, in the above video explains, the left has been trying to White wash the Islamic period and the recent was to whitewash Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. At 1.20 minutes in the above video, Truscke just made up a wlid claim that the genocide of Hindus was fabricated, without any explanation!!! She just made a statement. That is it. At 1.28 minutes, She says that the problem for this claim is that credible sources estimate that Aurangzeb killed 4.6 million Hindus.
    This crackpotness of the left has gone so far that even leftist/liberal Indian media has called out on this Whitewashing which goes against solid historical evidence of Hindu genocide by Muslims.
    https://scroll.in/article/856178/aurangzeb-was-a-bigot-not-just-by-our-standards-but-by-those-of-his-predecessors-and-peers
    Aurangzeb was a bigot not just by our standards but also by those of his predecessors and peers
    Audrey Truschke’s biography of the king fails to demolish the conventional view of the Mughal emperor.

    • Replies: @C🧐
    , @Showmethereal
  220. C🧐 says:
    @Malla

    That is using the word genocide too casually. There is little doubt that there were millions of Hindus killed – I wouldn’t be surprised if the number is higher. But genocide is a specific term where you completely (or close to it) eradicate a people or a significant amount of them or wipe them out completely from a region (either by death or physical transfer). Neither of these seem to have happened according to your source. Your source indicates he definitely discriminated against Hindus and was oppressive towards them as compared to his predecessors – that seems obvious from the evidence presented. But his killings seem to be connected with wars of imperial expansion (probably putting entire cities to the sword in order to make an example of them). With a place as densely populated as India, the kill count is not surprising. I looked up estimates for India’s population at that time and it seems most estimates say somewhere around 150-200 million. Now 4-5 million is quite a lot of people but it’s around 3% (give or take) of that population (and then you have to separate civilians from military deaths). That’s not that bad given a massive military campaign of consolidation running all over that subcontinent – compare it to the numbers for Mongol expansion or Tamerlane. It actually comes around the same kill ratio for the population of Europe during the Napoleonic wars.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  221. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Because the original Mughals had come from a place called Moghulistan, which was basically Uzbekistan + Xinjiang + some other central Asian territories. So the Mughals who came and conquered India to create the Mughal Empire were of Uzbek-Uyghur origins.

    No, you’re wrong. The Moghuls are not of Uzbek-Uyghur origins. Babur the Turco-Mongol founder of the Mughal Empire came from the Mongol Barlas tribe who is a descendant of Timur from his father side and Genghis Khan on his mother side. He invaded India after losing to the Uzbeks who had conquered much of Central Asia.

    The term ‘Moghuls’ refers to Muslim Mongols such as Timur and Babur who had converted to Turkic Islam while the term ‘Ghengissids’ refers to the Mongol descendants of Genghis Khan who had refused to convert to Turkic Islam. Timur eventually adopted and patronized Persianate Culture in Central Asia as seen in the Persianate Art and Architecture of Bukhara and Samarkand while his descendant Babur did the same in South Asia as seen in the Persianate Art and Architecture of the Taj Mahal.

    The 16th-18th centuries saw the germination of the Uzbek-Uyghur Persianate Culture of Turkic Muslims who had adopted the language, culture, art and architecture of the Persians in Central Asia. That’s what you see today in the medieval Persianate Cultures of the Uzbeks, Uyghurs and Mughals as the Persians never lost their cultural dominance over the whole region even after losing political control to the Arabs, Turkics, Mongols and Afghans. Both Timur and Babur even hired Persians to be their officials, scholars, artists, scientists and architects who are widely credited for ushering in the Second Islamic Golden Age in Central Asia.

    • Replies: @Malla
  222. @Showmethereal

    The Chinese (by which modern ethnographers mean “Han” or “fully assimilated” Chinese) were already deep in Central Asia by the beginning of the Han Dynasty, ~202 B.C.

    There were a lot of “Han” who migrated and settled in the region, plus substantial legions (that’s what Western historians call the armies of Imperial China, “legions” – not my term) and fortifications.

    I guess it was like the Romans settling on the German Rhine frontier: not enough to displace the indigenous population, but that land was most definitely a province of Imperial China.

    For the most part, with ups and downs, China (the state and people) have never left Central Asia. They are there to this day, and the region is pretty irrevocably part of the Chinese state by now (primarily to the huge influx of outside Chinese settlers, plus the attractiveness of China to younger ethnic Uighurs).

    Showmethereal, you forgot to mention the period in history when the Chinese nation controlled the largest swathes of Central Asia:

    YES, you guessed it . . . THE YUAN DYNASTY. You cannot mention the Ching (Manchu) as a Chinese Dynasty, without also accepting (as Chinese official histories have for centuries) that the Yuan (Mongol) were also a Chinese Dynasty.

    In the official histories, these 2 dynasties (Yuan and Ching) were EQUALLY either assimilated or outsiders, depending on how one views them. They certainly assimilated quickly and fully after they took over.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  223. Malla says:
    @C🧐

    But genocide is a specific term where you completely (or close to it) eradicate a people or a significant amount of them or wipe them out completely from a region (either by death or physical transfer).

    I agree. However in many cases, the option given was convert or die. Many of the invaders certainly had that in mind for Hindus and Jains, to eradicate them from this planet. So the intention was surely there for some, but India just had a huge population.

  224. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Babur the Turco-Mongol founder of the Mughal Empire came from the Mongol Barlas tribe who is a descendant of Timur from his father side and Genghis Khan on his mother side. He invaded India after losing to the Uzbeks who had conquered much of Central Asia.

    His main Uzbek enemy Muhammad Shaybani was himself a descendant of Genghis Khan. So I guess there is a lot of interchangeability in that region. Well a Uzbek friend of mine had insisted that Babur was Uzbek and Babur is considered a national hero in Uzbekistan. He was prince of the Ferghana valley, you think he would not have picked up Uzbek Uyghur culture as well as men in his army?

    That’s what you see today in the medieval Persianate Cultures of the Uzbeks, Uyghurs and Mughals as the Persians never lost their cultural dominance

    That is all true, but each of those Central Asian ethnic groups have unique cultures. And Kathak and Mughal costume has NOTHING in similar to toady’s Iranian culture. It has remarkable similarity with Uyghur + Uzbek culture. So it may be a Uyghur + Uzbek take on Persian culture which came to India.

    You can go to the streets of India, Pakistan or Bangladesh and ask them if this dance is Mughal Dance. All of them will exclaim: “The costume, music, dance style. 100% Mughal Dance. This was 1000 % exact, the culture of our Mughal court, our Mughal emperors”. There is nothing in Iran which comes close to this.

    Uyghur Dance. Looking back at the time of Great Mughal Empire

    Uyghur Dance
    Costume, Music, Dance —> All 100% like Indian Mughal. Exact same.

    Mughal Dance in India below. Same costume style.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @antibeast
  225. Malla says:
    @Showmethereal

    https://theprint.in/opinion/yogi-adityanaths-anti-mughal-stand-has-reasons-akbar-identified-himself-as-a-ghazi/509246/
    A lot of info here, some snippets
    Portuguese Jesuit, Father Monserrate, Italian Jesuit missionary and priest Rodolfo Aquaviva and Francisco Henriques arrived at Akbar’s court in early 1580s. Monserrate writes in his travelogue: “religious zeal of the Musalmans has destroyed all the idol temples.” According to him, “in place of the Hindu temples, countless tombs and little shrines of Musalmans (had) been erected.” Just two years after deciding to build Illahabas, Akbar had rewarded Badauni, the Mughal historian, with gold coins for his gesture of declaration to soak his beard with infidel Hindu blood.

    ….snip…..
    Borrowing references from Fatawa ‘Alamgiri to project Mughal history should be the last thing anyone should do, for the book had nothing more than contempt for the “kafirs”. The book supported slavery and addressed it under following points:
    If two or more Muslims, or persons subject to Muslims, who enter a non-Muslim controlled territory for the purpose of pillage without the permission of the Imam, and thus seize some property of the inhabitants there, and bring it back into the Muslim territory, that property would be legally theirs.
    The right of Muslims to purchase and own slaves
    A Muslim man’s right to have sex with a captive slave girl he owns
    No inheritance rights for slaves
    The testimony of all slaves was inadmissible in a court of law
    Slaves require permission of the master before they can marry
    An unmarried Muslim may marry a slave girl owned by another but a Muslim married to a Muslim woman may not marry a slave girl
    Conditions under which the slaves may be emancipated partially or fully
    Aurangzeb had sent presents worth around Rs 6,66,000 to Mecca and Rs 70,00,000 to foreign Muslim countries and its rulers. All this was happening when India’s GDP per capita growth rate was negative. It clearly speaks of the character Aurangzeb was.

  226. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    His main Uzbek enemy Muhammad Shaybani was himself a descendant of Genghis Khan. So I guess there is a lot of interchangeability in that region.

    But Babur could only trace his maternal ancestry to Genghis Khan while Shaybani is directly descended from the Great Khan. That makes all the difference in the clan politics of the Turco-Mongol World.

    Well a Uzbek friend of mine had insisted that Babur was Uzbek and Babur is considered a national hero in Uzbekistan. He was prince of the Ferghana valley, you think he would not have picked up Uzbek Uyghur culture as well as men in his army?

    Ancestral lineage is a political signifier in the clan politics of the Turco-Mongol World. So that’s why detailed genealogies of the ruling clans of the Turco-Mongol rulers are meticulously kept, as material evidence of their Ghengissid ancestry.

    Uzbeks claim that Timur is the founding father of Uzbekistan even though the Uzbek Shaybanids conquered Samarkand, the Capital of the Timurid Empire in 1500CE. Babur tried but failed three times to retake Samarkand and decided to invade Kabul before conquering Delhi, founding the Mughal Empire after defeating Ibrahim Lodi.

    Babur was born in what is now Uzbekistan, and so was Timur. That’s why Uzbeks claim Timur as their national hero even though the Uzbek Shaybanids who founded the Uzbek Empire (which split into three Khanates/Emirates) fought, defeated and destroyed the Timurid Empire.

    So let me get this straight: Uzbeks consider Babur to be the national hero of Uzbekistan because he fled to Delhi and founded the Mughal Empire in India!

    • Replies: @Malla
  227. Malla says:
    @C🧐

    Now 4-5 million is quite a lot of people but it’s around 3% (give or take) of that population (and then you have to separate civilians from military deaths).

    That is just our Emperor Aurangzeb. There were other Mughal rulers and their kills, though Aurangzeb was the worst. And lets not forget the Delhi Sultanate, other Islamic rulers down south, the Delhi Sultanante before the Mughals who were even far worse and loads of Islamic invaders with the express purpose to kill, loot, enslave Hindus and to destroy Hindu temples. They all gloated to their historians about their huge numbers of kaffirs killed and enslaved, for many it was a mission to extinguish Hindus completely. It is weird how people expect Hindus to just forget all this.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @C🧐
  228. @CosmicMythos

    I would agree… To your last paragraphs yes the Yuan was a Mongol controlled Chinese dynasty. I was more specifically dealing with what we call Xinjiang and relating to Kazakhstan.

  229. Escobar wrote fantasy as usual. As we can all see on today’s video, Nazerbayev had a stroke. There was a brief succession struggle.

  230. @Wizard of Oz

    Though the British Minister of Defense might be scholarly (they’re a dime a dozen these days—mere “Sitzfleisch Philosophs” as the Germans might call them); he most probably is fully devoid of any level of honest dignity. Though as a highly socialized public school type of Brit, he can most probably don a mask of dignity with assured aplomb.

    The British upper classes are pigs, essentially the lot of them, even if many, as was Churchill, the products of decadent aristocraps marrying Jewish heiresses to restore their squandered family fortunes.

  231. @Malla

    It is the best sentence of the week:

    That is just our Emperor Aurangzeb.

    Comic relief for a science-fiction novel.

  232. @antibeast

    While tribute taking Conquest Culture was at the root of Islam, it was independently present in an even more vigorous way in Central Asia. The Mongols were not the first galloping horsemen from the steppe not even in India (although the Aryans came with chariots).

    • Replies: @antibeast
  233. C🧐 says:
    @Malla

    I’m not arguing that Hindus should simply forget, it’s pretty obvious that groups like the Mughals were foreign invaders that constituted a military elite from a foreign religion and were antagonistic to the native population. I don’t think the Native Americans have forgotten that they used to run this continent a few centuries ago. So I get why Hindus would hate Mughuls to this day.

    I am saying that making an argument for genocide requires a certain level of facts and details that seem to be missing in this case. There seems to be plenty of evidence for a case of general oppression and subjugation.

    For instance, you brought up some medieval manual that the Mughals used to run the state and certain rules about slavery. But it seems kind of strange to hold that up as some kind of specific evidence of uniquely discriminatory slavery rules against Hindus. I mean, I’m no expert, but I’ve read a bit on slavery myself – for years I was taught that the slavery we had in the US was the worst kind of slavery ever. Having read into it, I find that simply isn’t true. Sure it had a racial feature to it, but that’s about all that makes it unique. The rules you quoted seem pretty commonplace – concubinage, slaves can’t inherit (in most societies you inherited your father’s slaves, they were property), slaves need permission to marry from the master, etc – pretty run of the mill actually. I do agree it would be pretty bad to be on the receiving end of being enslaved by the Mughals, but it doesn’t sound uniquely horrific. I mean, maybe if the Mughals were sacrificing slaves to Allah like Aztecs were to Tlaloc, you could make a case.

    I know in our context in the US, the natives had plenty of slavery going on – there were no formal rules, each tribe differed in how you were treated. If you were captured by one tribe, you might be slowly integrated into it, if you got captured by another, you could expect to get slowly tortured to death. I was pretty sure slavery was common in India before the Muslim invasion so I tried to find something that outlined what it was like comparatively and found this which basically references a Sanskrit book of medieval Hindu administration – didn’t take long to find.
    Two of the slave girls were captured in raids, the third (of the Rajputra caste’) was abandoned by her family (both father and husband), and had to take to begging on account of famine and plunder (by ‘Mlechhas’ and Rashtrakutas) and in utter distress voluntarily became a slave. The fourth was sold by her master after she had lost her husband and other relations. The deeds show that the subjection of the girl slaves to the master was complete. A slave girl could not be approached by her relations (even father or husband) and could be sold and gifted away at the master’s will. On the other hand the master could bind, beat or strike her and put her to hard work. If ever the female slave being tortured, committed suicide by throwing herself into a well, etc., she would “become a she-ass, bitch or candali and die’, while the master would be held to be as pure as if ‘he has had a bath in the Ganga’… We now find in the Lekhapaddhati girls of high caste serving as slaves; in one case the original caste (Rajaputra) was higher than that of the master (Vaishya). With these slave girls in the households, sexual relations were, of course, possible. Concubinage appears in any case to have been a well established established institution in this period, as attested by numerous references from Kalhana’s Rajatarangini (c. 1151) of concubines and mistresses of kings and nobles.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/44144745

    The paper goes on to review female slavery as the various Muslims invaded and their policies. It’s actually a very good read and less than ten pages. But it’s a tough argument to make that the Muslim invasion made it any worse for Hindu slaves from a rights perspective – the only thing is one of volume, the paper mentions that the invasions and subsequent military campaigns increased the numbers of slaves and lowered the price such that Hindu or Muslim families of modest means could afford one.

    I don’t think you’re going to find much different for legal rights for slaves in medieval Japan or Thailand either.

    • Replies: @Malla
  234. @B🧐

    There are different Conquest Cultures. Some, most, take tribute. They mine the conquered land for resources. A few aim to farm the land. They put back some of the profit into the venture and trade for the goods. The British in particular were good at this.

    • Replies: @C🧐
  235. @Malla

    What mistake did I make??? I asked a question because I dont know the answer. I never lived in India nor did I study Indian history in depth…. That was an actual question to which you put conjecture as to what I think about the Mughals. Yikes!!!

  236. C🧐 says:
    @Philip Owen

    Yes, I agree, not all conquest cultures are the same. Motivations and methods could be quite varied depending on who you are dealing with. British were foremost mercantilist conquest culture – they would send in their navy to do anything from frighten you into giving them preferable trade agreements or help destroy an enemy fleet for you in order to secure the same. They often tried to make a deal that the other side would find somewhat attractive. Of course, if you got in the way, like stopping them from selling your people opium, then things escalated. I think part of this was facilitated by the fact that they were one of the supreme maritime powers in world history. Being a maritime power from a far away remote island as opposed to a confederation of tribal steppe horsemen facilitates a different mentality at the empire game.

  237. antibeast says:
    @Philip Owen

    That’s true for all invading armies and colonial settlers who either destroyed (by conquest or genocide) or otherwise displaced (by dominance or assimilation) the original Indo-Iranian (or ‘Aryan’) inhabitants of Central Asia after the arrival of the Persians, Macedonians, Chinese, Xiongnus, Huns, Arabs, Turkics, Mongols, Manchus and Russians over the last 2,500 years.

    While the so-called Turkistanis today claim Central Asia as their ancestral homeland of ‘Turkestan’ after establishing themselves as the ethnic majority over the last 1,000 years, that whole region was the Urheimat of the Indo-Iranian or ‘Aryan’ languages which emerged in the Oxus Civilization some 4,000 years ago.

    Islam didn’t arrive in Central Asia until after the Arab Conquests destroyed both the transplanted Indo-Iranian Buddhism propagated by the Kushan Empire as well as the indigenous Aryan Zoroastrianism as written in the Avesta which named the region ‘Airyanem Vaejah‘.

    The ‘Conquest Culture’ of Turkic Islam came much later with the emergence of the Kara-Khanid Khanate in 1000CE which proceeded to invade and destroy the Indo-Iranian Buddhist Kingdom of Khotan in Xinjiang. Over the next five centuries, ‘Turkic Islam’ came to displace Indo-Iranian Buddhism in Xinjiang by the time of the Timurid Conquests of Central Asia in 1400CE.

    My use of the term ‘Conquest Culture’ was meant specifically to debunk the moral claim of Turkestanis to Central Asia as the implied homeland of ‘Turkic Islam’ which itself was a ‘Conquest Culture’ imposed by military conquest and political violence over the last millennia of turf wars in the volatile region. After the arrival of the Manchu Qing in the 18th century and the conquests of the Russian Tsar in the 19th century practically sealed the fate of ‘Turkic Islam’ in Central Asia, that whole medieval concept of ‘Islamic Turkestan’ has effectively ceased to exist with the ex-Soviet ‘Stan’ Republics thoroughly ‘Russified’ and ‘Sovietized’ today.

    • Replies: @CosmicMythos
  238. Malla says:
    @C🧐

    I am saying that making an argument for genocide requires a certain level of facts and details that seem to be missing in this case.

    I never claimed genocide like the Hinduvadis. I am saying SOME (not all) of the Islamic invaders intended Genocide of Hindus from their writings. The population too huge for the technology of their day. Hindus were idol worshippers and Muslims hated idol worship as Shirk, after all their Prophet supposedly had destroyed the idols in the Kaaba.
    I have covered this before.
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-memorials-to-judah-benjamin/?showcomments#comment-4010915
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-memorials-to-judah-benjamin/?showcomments#comment-4011272
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-memorials-to-judah-benjamin/?showcomments#comment-4011283

    As far as slavery, sure, it may have existed before, but there were mass raids on Indian villages to take Hindu slaves, so much so that Hindus were selling cheap in the markets. The people who banned slavery in India were the British East India Company.

    • Replies: @C🧐
    , @Mehool Mehta
  239. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    So let me get this straight: Uzbeks consider Babur to be the national hero of Uzbekistan because he fled to Delhi and founded the Mughal Empire in India!

    Yup apparently they do

    Babur Statue in Uzbekistan
    He ranks as a national hero in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Many of his poems have become popular folk songs. Babur actually disliked India and longed for Fergana Valley all his life. In his book Baburnama, he writes

    “Hindustan is a country of a few charms. Its people have no good looks, no good manners, no genius or capacity. There are no good horses, no good dogs, no grapes, muskmelons or good fruits, no ice or cold water, no bread or cooked food in the markets, no hot baths, no colleges, no candles, torches or candle sticks. In places of candle and torch they keep lamp-men to carry oil-lamps from place to place. There are no running waters in their gardens or residences. Their residences have no charm, air, regularity or symmetry. Peasants and poor people move about mostly naked. The males use mostly languta and the females covered their body only with one cloth.”

    However, he wrote- “Pleasant things of Hindustan are that it is a large country and has masses of gold and silver.”

  240. C🧐 says:
    @Malla

    OK, sorry if I misread that, that certainly sounds reasonable based on the data. I don’t think anyone is going to argue that Islamic culture (this basically seems to be an Abrahamic religions vibe) is antagonistic to paganism. And what you say about the numbers of slaves increasing in India due to the invasion and wars seems backed by the data and is pretty intuitive.

    I looked around to see if there was a successful conversion of a Hindu culture or region to Islam and it looks like Malaysia and Indonesia may count. India seems to have basically been a failure despite the military pressure brought to bear. Like I mentioned earlier, it may have worked in Europe, but that seems to have been due to maximum force applied fairly consistently – and as you mentioned, maybe the population concentration was too large for anything like that to be applied.

    In the Malaysia and Indonesia scenario, it seems to have been a mix of Buddhism and Hinduism in play. Arab traders on the Indian Ocean network and some Sufis (from China??? looks to be the most common theory) seem to have spread it in the populace until some local elites and nobles converted and declared themselves as independent sultanates.

    This trend increased until finally the local sultanates declared independence from the Majapahit empire (which was the big Buddhist/Hindu empire on the block). Then they challenged it militarily for supremacy and Majapahit lost and got kicked out to the island of Bali. Then the sultanate from the island of Java declared itself the inheritors of Majapahit.

    It looks to be that the key difference between the two situations is that in India it was seen as a foreign invasion from an external civilization whereas in Indonesia it was seen as more of a struggle for supremacy and then a final civil war within the same civilization. And it took about half the time to be successful in the Malaysia and Indonesia region.

  241. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    The first video is a Chinese Uyghur Dance showing Tang/Song influences while the second video shows the Persian influences on Mughal Dance, similar to the Persian Classical Dance below:

    The last one is similar to the Persian Classical Dance below with more Middle Eastern Arabic influences:

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Peter Rabbit
  242. @antibeast

    What I am about to write is actually very well known and accepted, so here goes:

    The original Turkic identity arose with the “Gokturks”, whose original home was . . . what is now called Central Mongolia, immediately north of the Great Wall. (When you look at pure ethnic Turks, they are very obviously Asians).

    What is today Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc.) was originally Indo-Aryan, but they had been pushed out my migrating Huns and Avars from Asia. In those days, Central Asia was neither Turkic nor Islamic.

    Prior to the 5th century AD, the proto-Turkic tribes were part of the ever-violent, ever-roiling mass that was the brutal life and death competition on the steppes, sort of a counterpart to the Armageddon-level warfare that took place in the Hua Xia (Chinese) region during the Warring States, south of said Wall.

    In fact, a great many steppe nomad tribes (proto- Mongols/Turks/Manchus), as well as the then-nomadic and warlike Tibetans, were dragged into the wars in China, as vassals, mercenaries or auxiliaries. This is to illustrate the extremely long-standing interaction between the settled Chinese and the Sino-nomads.

    The Turkics had been militaristic, expansionist and very, very powerful for their whole existence, prior to Islam. They were once under the yoke of the Huns, but the Huns were destroyed in their Mongolian homeland by the Han Dynasty in 133 BC. There followed a period of no dominant power on the steppes.

    The Gokturks arose to conquer the steppes and place all the tribes into their confederation, a mighty nomad barbarian empire stretching from the Pacific Ocean to the Caspian Sea. They then proceeded to do what all steppe empires do – extract huge tributes from all the surrounding civilizations.

    By historical happenstance, the Gokturk Khaganate had the “luck” of militarily colliding with the frankly overwhelming power of T’ang China, and they were inevitably defeated.

    Facing a choice of “integrate or be annihilated”, the majority stayed in the their ancestral lands to accept Sinicization. Pretty much still in China and Mongolia now.

    Those who did not want to “bend the knee”, fled west, smashing into the lands of Islam. It is from this point that we have the migrating Turkics converting to Islam. They were not converted by force – the Turkics were too much militarily for the Arabs and Persians.

    Rather, Arab and Persian muslim imams and holy men went among the tribes, and slowly brought them into the Islamic faith.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  243. antibeast says:
    @CosmicMythos

    The ethnolinguistic timeline of Central Asia can be divided roughly into two distinct 2,500 year periods: 1). 3000 BCE to 500 BCE and 2). 500 BCE to today. The first period corresponds to the rise of the Yamnaya and Sintashta Cultures which gave birth to the Indo-European and Indo-Iranian language families, respectively, while the second period corresponds to the Westward movement of East Asian Mongoliod Tribes, displacing the West Eurasian Caucasiod Tribes, across the Eurasian steppe.

    The Han Dynasty fought and drove out the Xiongnus who displaced the Indo-Iranians starting with the Yuezhi (Sakas) who then displaced the Sycthians who then displaced the Sarmatians who then settled down in Eastern Europe. Eventually, the Xiongnus settled down in Central Asia and became the Huns who migrated Westward to Eastern Europe where they founded the Hunnic Empire. The Göktürks emerged later with the founding of the Tang Dynasty which fought and destroyed their nomadic Empire, forcing the surviving Turkic tribes (Kipchak, Karluk, Oghuz) to migrate North to Eastern Europe (Kipchak), West to the Middle East (Oghuz) or remain in Central Asia (Karluk).

    Those who did not want to “bend the knee”, fled west, smashing into the lands of Islam. It is from this point that we have the migrating Turkics converting to Islam. They were not converted by force – the Turkics were too much militarily for the Arabs and Persians. Rather, Arab and Persian muslim imams and holy men went among the tribes, and slowly brought them into the Islamic faith.

    The Turkic warriors first served as slave-soldiers known as ‘mamluks’ for the Muslim Caliphs. But they became too successful in warfare so much so that they eventually formed their own military ruling castes which went on to invade, conquer and establish their own Turkic Empires. That’s when the Arab Imams and Persian Scholars began converting the Turkic warrior ruling elites to Persianate Islam which became the Court Culture of the Seljuk, Timurid, Mughal, Safavid and Ottoman Empires.

    The Oghuz in particular migrated to West Asia, Anatolia, North Africa and Eastern Europe and became founders of their own powerful Islamic Empires including the Seljuk and Ottoman Empires. Not all Turkic tribes became warriors however as the Karluks settled down in Central Asia, converted to Turkic Islam and became sedentary farmers. But the Kipchaks never gave up their nomadic lifestyles and continued to practice Tengrism even as the last of Chinggisid Mongols converted to Islam such as the Kazakhs who remained pagan nomads until the Russians promoted their settlement and conversion to Turkic Islam, well into the late 19th century.

    One thing for certain though is the Arabs, Persians, Europeans, Afghans, North Africans, Anatolians and Indians were no match for the warrior spirit of the Turco-Mongols who swept across the Eurasian steppe like a thief in the night and conquered the whole of Eurasia. Only one Empire succeeded in vanquishing all of them: the Han, Tang and Qing Dynasties of the Chinese Empire. And that’s why China is still alive and kicking since its founding 2,243 years ago!

    Here’s a video of the savage wolf warrior ethos of the Turco-Mongols:

    Now you know why China built the Great Wall: to keep those savage Turco-Mongols out!

    • Replies: @CosmicMythos
    , @C🧐
  244. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    Thanks, seems interesting but the Indian Mughal dance and the Uyghur dance seem more remarkably similar to each other. Was there some Song/Tang Chinese or Persian influence, sure, maybe. But the similarity in costume of the Uyghurs and Mughal Indian is remarkable. One can see the three videos I have posted in my post 226 with the music off, concurrently. The Indian one is highly Hinduised in music. I had shown some other Uyghur dances to my Indian friends (female friends who are professional dancers) and they all commented how similar Uyghur-Uzbek music was to Indian music. Many of them chicks did not know some people like the Uyghurs or Uzbeks even existed (not very good General Knowledge like you and me LOL) I will try to find those videos.

  245. @antibeast

    the Han, Tang and Qing Dynasties of the Chinese Empire

    Absolutely, agreed. But you forgot the truly awe-inspiring Yuan Dynasty. One who credits the Qing must surely also acknowledge the Yuan – it’s only logical.

    I would modify your statement to the following:

    “The Han and Tang Dynasties outright defeated the Sino-nomads, the Yuan Dynasty ruled them as a man is master over his pack of wolves, and began the process of assimilation, and the Qing Dynasty (plus the Russian Empire and the Safavids in Persia) completed the vanquishing and final taming of the horse tribes.”

    It took modern artillery, muskets (not mere arquebuses), as well as powerful crossbows, archery and combined arms (infantry, cavalry and artillery) to bring the nomads to heel. A testament to their power.

    No shame on the nomads; their contributions, both genetic and cultural, are widely acknowledged, not least in China today.

    These peoples were the terror of the world for millennia, it’s just that history itself moved on.

    @antibeast : Thanks for filling in gaps in my knowledge. The history of Inner Asia is fascinating, but little known to most people in the West.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  246. C🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    Your general outline seems right, but it looks like proselytizing was already active as early as the 10th century among the decentralized Central (sounds funny) Asian societies. According to this source, the environment made for a natural fit for master-pupil relationships that the Sufis utilized.

    Plow for Islam: Central Asia and Sufi Culture

    Sufism, an ascetic and mystical tradition, became the most effective proselytizing force for Islam for several centuries, despite its lack of any single unifying doctrine or evangelical mission. In Central Asia, from the tenth to the fifteenth century, Sufism was a diverse response in a decentralized environment that allowed a master-pupil relationship which was intimate, local and remarkably capable of creating small, repeatable conversion experiences and actions. It also permitted the incorporation of local customs to create individualized insights into Islam that were nevertheless acceptable to the orthodoxy by dint of their incorporation of the major threads of Islamic law. The varied paths of Islam, followed by pious individuals, led to the gradual supremacy of Muslim faith in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and other Central Asian lands, consequently facilitating the conversion of Mongol and Turkic conquerors. Their conversions cemented the establishment of Islam in the region, the greatest and most enduring popular accomplishment of the Sufis. Sufism’s historical reputation as the proselytizing force of Islam, especially in Central Asia, rests on the well-documented conversions of Il-Khan and Chagataid Mongol leaders. 1 This early reputation is reinforced in Tamerlane’s era when his dynasty is also welcomed by Sufi Sheikhs; clearly the Mongols were not a one-time hit, but rather one in a long chain of accommodations by conquerors to the culture and religion of their new lands.2 This essay examines how this diverse, non-coordinated movement could permeate a vast land and sway military conquerors to conversion.
    https://worldhistoryconnected.press.uillinois.edu/12.2/forum_swansinger.html

    It doesn’t look like Mamluks start taking over the Muslim world until the late 12th to early 13th century.

    On that note, the Mongols were certainly serious badasses, but a few people did stop them.

    The two Muslim countries the video points out were run by the Mamluks – so it looks like islam actually allowed those Turkics to level-up their badassery and keep the Mongols out of Africa, Arabia and India. I guess then they both eventually got slammed hard and defeated by Tamerlane (he defeated the Turkic Ottomans also), but that guy was already calling himself the sword of islam so he was operating at “achievement unlocked” mode. I have to admit, just this face could probably get cities to surrender.

    Also, didn’t the Mongols literally take over China? And then eventually lost it due to the normal peasant-uprisings/civil-war that plagues literally everybody ruling China?

    • Replies: @C🧐
    , @antibeast
  247. C🧐 says:
    @C🧐

    The video I posted shows that the samurai were indeed the serious badasses everyone already knows they were.

    Likely why we incorporated so many samurai movie plots into our Wild West films.

  248. antibeast says:
    @CosmicMythos

    Absolutely, agreed. But you forgot the truly awe-inspiring Yuan Dynasty. One who credits the Qing must surely also acknowledge the Yuan – it’s only logical.

    Not the ill-fated Yuan Dynasty which was marked by Mongol Civil Wars, Failed Foreign Wars, Palace Coups, Economic Disasters, Political Corruption and Han Rebellions which finally evicted the Yuan Dynasty from China after nine successors to Kublai Khan in less than a century of misrule. As Kublai Khan ascended the throne, Berke Khan had converted to Islam and betrayed the Mongol Empire by supplying Kipchak Turks from the Golden Horde which saved the Mamluk Sultanate from the Mongol invasions of Hulagu Khan from the Ilkhanate. That started a series of three Mongol Civil Wars which doomed the Mongol Empire after the death of Kublai Khan.

    Due to his distrust of the Han Chinese, Kublai Khan had recruited Semus or foreign Muslims from Central Asia to help run the Yuan Dynasty together with his allies, Uyghur and Tibetan Buddhists. But they couldn’t get along with each other because the foreign Semus were Muslims who spoke Persian or Arabic while the Uyghurs and Tibetans were Buddhists who spoke Chinese and Mongolian. Temür Khan, the successor to Kublai Khan, finally decided to reinstate the Chinese Confucian System by appointing Han Chinese Confucian Scholars to run the Yuan Dynasty, which marginalized the Semus as well as his Uyghur and Tibetan allies. To make things worse, Kublai Khan converted to Tibetan Buddhism which became the official Court Religion of the Yuan Dynasty while passing laws banning the Muslim practice of Halal animal slaughter which offended his animal herder sensibility as a Mongol steppe nomad. LOL!

    The only good thing to come out of the Yuan Dynasty was that it reunited Xinjiang with China and incorporated Tibet and Mongolia for the first time as part of China. The Manchus would later officially annex all three regions as part of their ‘Ten Great Campaigns’ which was the most militaristic period in Chinese history. The Qing Dynasty finally did succeed in vanquishing and pacifying all regions surrounding China, which marked the largest extent of its territorial conquests in Chinese history.

    “The Han and Tang Dynasties outright defeated the Sino-nomads, the Yuan Dynasty ruled them as a man is master over his pack of wolves, and began the process of assimilation, and the Qing Dynasty (plus the Russian Empire and the Safavids in Persia) completed the vanquishing and final taming of the horse tribes.”

    I would give credit to the Russian Tsar and the Manchu Qing for vanquishing and pacifying the Turkic Muslims in Central Asia. In contrast, the Islamic States of Iran and Afghanistan escaped the secular fate of modern Central Asia as a by-product of Soviet Communism unlike the British Raj which did succeed in colonizing India. On hindsight, India without the British Raj would have suffered from sectarian conflicts, tribal warfare and medieval violence, which ravaged much of the Central Asian region for millennia, and which still very much characterizes much of the Middle East today.

    Something good did come out of the British Raj. Look at India and compare it to the Middle East today. That would have been the fate of India without the British Raj.

    • Replies: @C🧐
  249. C🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    To be honest, the Middle East wasn’t doing all that bad (fairly stable, gdp slowly inching up year by year same with technological adoption) before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the eventual overthrow of Qaddafi – my government probably gets the lion’s share of the credit for that clusterf***, the British were along for the ride.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @antibeast
  250. antibeast says:
    @C🧐

    To be fair to the Yanks, that whole Middle East is a power keg that would have blown up anyway without a strong US military presence there which is exactly what happened right after WWII. Were it not for the US invasion of Iraq, either the Saudi Wahhabists or the Iranian Mullahs would have started a sectarian war against Saddam Hussein anyway or worse against each other which is happening right now in their proxy war in Yemen. Just look at Soleimani, Erdogan or MBS, they all aspire to become either a modern-day Shah Ismael I, Osman I or an Arab Caliph who wants to build their own Iranian Shiite Safavid, Turkic Muslim Ottoman or Arabic Caliphate Empires, respectively.

    These sectarian conflicts are driven by ancient hatreds which have deep roots in the Middle East, still wracked today by Medieval Tribalism, between the Persians, Arabs, Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, Turks, etc. What is truly amazing is the utter naivety of the US Deep State to fall prey to the ‘regime-change’ crowd under the guise of promoting ‘democracy’, leading to the so-called ‘Arab Spring’, which has now turned into rivers of blood in the Middle East. Whatever the impetus behind the US invasion of Iraq — either the Zionist lobby or Defense contracts or both — the Middle East has now turned into a bloody mess. And with the decline of US Empire now in full retreat after the Fall of Kabul, things don’t look good at all. Not at all.

    Things look much better in post-Soviet Central Asia or in post-Colonial India, both of which have done well after the Fall of the USSR and the end of the British Raj, respectively. But there are ominous signs — Islamic Fundamentalism in Central Asia and Hindutva Supremacy in India — both of which needs to be contained to prevent another bloody mess in Asia.

    • Replies: @C🧐
  251. @Malla

    Mehool Bhai here
    My Bhai from Delhi, I am surprised a traitor like you would write about our suffering. Thank you. But your writings are mild. As far as most of us Hindus, it was genocide and we will have retribution.
    Anyways thanks bhai. Only problem is you praise the white skin British looter thief too much and do not write too much against the Chinese enemy snakes. Stop praising evil British and start showing the true face of evil Chinese enemy. Do that and you will become a patriot, a true son of your ancient land, Bharata.

    —–Your Bhai from Mumbai City.
    Do you come to Mumbai often? Not been to Delhi in a long time, have heard a lot of praise about your Delhi metro.

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
    , @Malla
  252. antibeast says:
    @C🧐

    Sufism’s historical reputation as the proselytizing force of Islam, especially in Central Asia, rests on the well-documented conversions of Il-Khan and Chagataid Mongol leaders.

    Most early Turkic converts to Islam did so for mundane reasons such as the need to settle down in rural villages where Turkic nomads such as the Karluks became sedentary farmers. The first Turkic rulers to convert to Islam were Satuq Bughra Khan, a Karluk Turk of the Kara-Khanid Khanate and Seljuk, an Oghuz Turk of the Seljuk Empire in the late 10th century.

    It doesn’t look like Mamluks start taking over the Muslim world until the late 12th to early 13th century.

    As early as the late 10th century, the Simjurids and the Ghaznavids became the first Turkic Mamluks to seize political power from the Persian Samanids. They were followed by the Seljuks and the Karakhanids who established the first of many Islamic Khanates and Empires in West, Central and South Asia, all the way to North Africa and Eastern Europe.

    The most famous Turkic Mamluk is Sultan Baibars, a Kipchak Turk from Kazakhstan, who defeated and captured King Louis IX of France during the Seventh Crusade, thus ending the Western presence in the Levant. He also decisively defeated the Mongols in the Battle of Ain Jalut, thus saving the Islamic World from further devastation by Hulagu Khan, helped by the treacherous Muslim Mongol Berte Khan of the Golden Horde who supplied him with Kipchak Mamluks.

    The Turco-Mongols formed a unique warrior ruling caste in the Islamic World, similar to the Samurai warrior ruling caste of Japanese Shogunates. Starting out as ‘slave-soldiers’ or Mamluks, these East Asian Mongoliods rose through the military hierarchy and ended up seizing political power to establish their own Islamic Empires, with Persianate Culture as the official Court Culture, using Arab Caliphs as religious figureheads and Persian Scholars as imperial administrators. That also happened in Japan where the Samurai warriors started out as feudal subjects of Daimyo lords but ended up seizing political power and establishing their own Shogunates, with the Tokugawa adopting Neo-Confucianism as its official State ideology.

    This East Asian warrior caste model is very different from the Western European feudal warrior model such as the Catholic Order of the Teutonic Knights which is placed under the suzerainty of the Roman Pontiff. Unlike the East Asian warriors, the Western European Crusaders did not possesses any political power of their own but had to submit to and take orders from the Roman Pontiff who eventually granted the Teutonic Knights their own Monastic State in Prussia and other Monastic Estates elsewhere in Europe.

    The closest parallel that is similar to the Catholic Order of Teutonic Knights is the Qizilbash Order of Sufi Twelver in Shiite Islam, established by the Iranian Safavids as the official State religion of the Safavid Empire. Just like the Catholic Crusades launched by the Roman Pontiff against Muslims, Byzantines, Pagans and Heretics, the Iranian Safavids launched their own Shiite Crusades against Sunni Islam and Arab Caliphs, destroying Sunni Mosques and desecrating Arab Caliph mausoleums.

    In effect, the Iranian Safavids started the sectarian conflict between Sunnis and Shiites, which has lasted to this day, pitting Saudi Sunni Wahhabism against Iranian Shiism, with the IRGC acting as a latter-day Qizilbash Order, organizing Shiite militias in the Middle East.

    • Replies: @D🧐
  253. C🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    The whole promoting democracy business is a sham that is sold to the hoi polloi – our deep state is friendly and even golfing buddies (literally) with the various monarchs that are found all over the Middle East. We’ve never had a problem with working with dictators or militaries that overthrow governments in the region. We sell them weapons, train their intelligence agencies and cover for them in the UN. The only thing we can’t have is if they go off script (like Saddam attacking Kuwait because of their slant drilling into his oil fields – we can’t have the locals decide to erase borders that the west defined), that is not acceptable.

    Speaking of those borders. You are right that there are a lot of old rivalries in the region and you have to remember, we are the ones that told them what borders they had to have, that wasn’t their decision. Did (does) China simply accept the borders that the British defined? I remember reading that India simply annexed a bunch of territories after the British left that were supposed to be independent states. Certainly any attempted redefining of the borders there has been far less bloody than what we had in the West – those were a doozy.

    Also, some of those rivalries are fairly new – I don’t remember coming across an instance of wars between the Turks and the Kurds for example before the 20th century.

    I think the Middle East was actually relatively stable with a kind of power balance between Iraq, Saudi, Egypt, Turkey and Iran – especially after the Iran/Iraq border war which showed that most of the powers in the area don’t really have an enormous power advantage over any other, certainly not worth whatever paltry gain can be acquired from a grueling war of attrition. You talk about Erdogan, MBS and Soleimani, but there doesn’t seem to be reason to believe they would naturally arise (or take their particular trajectory in politics) in a Mideast that wasn’t already torn apart by the war in Iraq that destabilized the entire region.

    And of course the Israeli factor cannot be discounted since it is in Israel’s interest to make sure none of those countries gets a relative power advantage so it will get countries like the US involved in breaking apart any potential rivals.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  254. D🧐 says:
    @antibeast

    Thanks for the details, I had come across Ghaznavids, but did not know they were Mamluks – very interesting. And the parallels between samurai and Mamluks are remarkable.

    It does seem like the Safavid take over of Iran was a key piece in the Sunni-Shiah rivalry in the area in the way we see it now. But even then, there seemed to be a series of border clashes over territory between Iran and the Ottomans but nothing significant happening (like a full scale invasion attempt) since the 17th century. And Iran and Turkey have tensions but, again, a lot of these arise in the backdrop of the environment caused by the Iraq invasion.

    I’d say the major component is the uncompromising Wahhabi-style Islam that was revived and promoted heavily with Saudis funding it massive amounts of petrodollars. That has caused a lot of instability in the area, especially when we come in and topple a government and destroy infrastructure and civil institutions keeping law and order.

  255. @Mehool Mehta

    Lots of good tracks to use as toilet in Delhi Metro, punka.

  256. @Wizard of Oz

    Oh, Wiz-you old sucker, you. Do you really think that the Tory dope wrote that shite himself? In that case I have an Opera House you might like to purchase.

  257. @Wizard of Oz

    You’ll love this one Wiz. The psychopaths at SBS have just queried whether Austfailia will be drawn into defending Ukraine???!! Not only are the Five Eyes lunatics aiming to attack China, but they want the whole goon-squad together to attack Russia. Better get your khakis out of the cupboard, Wiz. I can see you leading the charge, for ‘Western Values’!

  258. antibeast says:
    @C🧐

    You talk about Erdogan, MBS and Soleimani, but there doesn’t seem to be reason to believe they would naturally arise (or take their particular trajectory in politics) in a Mideast that wasn’t already torn apart by the war in Iraq that destabilized the entire region.

    Pan-Arab nationalism had already existed long before the USA got involved in the Middle East. Egypt’s Nasser had created the short-lived UAR while King Abdullah of Transjordan proposed a Hashimite-led Greater Syria, both pan-Arabic States which ended in failure. Long before the US invasion of Iraq, both Turkey and Iran already had problems dealing with their Kurdish and Arab populations, respectively. Erdogan’s war against the Kurds in Syria has nothing to do with Saddam Hussein who, despite being an avowed Ba’athist pan-Arab nationalist, was an outlier in the geopolitics of the Middle East as he picked fights with everyone — Kuwaitis, Iranians, Kurds — which made him persona non grata to the West.

    What the Carter Doctrine did was to impose a Pax Americana in the Middle East after the Camp David Accords pacified the Egyptian Arabs who were intent on destroying Israel in a series of Arab-Israeli Wars. But the US military presence could not prevent Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait nor his war with Iran nor his genocidal wars against the Kurds. That prompted Bush Sr. to launch the US-led Gulf War which temporarily stopped Saddam’s expansionist agenda. A dozen years later, Bush Jr. then decided to overthrow Saddam which created the power vacuum for Iran to expand its Shiite influence in Iraq.

    With the Biden Doctrine all but ending the US military presence in the Middle East, Pax Americana — which kept the peace for decades — has now come to an end. The century long period from WWI to today is really the Western interregnum, a temporary period of Western Powers keeping the peace in the Middle East. With the looming USEXIT from the region, what will happen next is the geopolitical reconfiguration of the Middle East between four competing States — Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran — which could very well decide the fate of the region, war or peace, in the decades to come.

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  259. @antibeast

    Both your “Chinese Uyghur” and “Classical Persian” dances are actually bogus fakes. They are the Soviet School of generic “national” dances manufactured for promoting “people’s culture.”

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
  260. @Peter Rabbit

    Are you, you wascally wabbit, saying that traditional Uighur and Persian dance have died out completely. What is wrong with ersatz revivals if they please audiences and dancers, and what is negative about ‘people’s culture’, or is culture only for the elite. Like you, one presumes.

  261. @antibeast

    ‘Keeping the peace’-the destruction of Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Palestine, Somalia and Sudan and the murder of millions. I’d hate to see your version of ‘bloody havoc’.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  262. antibeast says:
    @mulga mumblebrain

    It’s easy enough to criticize US foreign policy towards the Middle East. But a lot of the problems in the Middle East such as the sectarian conflict between Sunnis and Shiites or the persecution of the Kurds or the rise of radical Islam had nothing to do with US foreign policy.

    To be fair to the USA, Carter did keep the peace between Egypt and Israel with the Camp David Accords. But he failed to prevent Khomeini from taking over Iran which became the Shiite Power that it is today. His National Security Adviser Brzezinski wanted to destroy the USSR so much that he was willing to ‘weaponize’ Islamic Fundamentalism which eventually led to the rise of radical Islam in the Muslim World.

    My point is not to absolve the USA of any wrongdoing but to assess its strategic role in the Middle East which did keep the peace and the oil flowing through the Gulf, for as long as the US military presence maintained the balance of power in the Middle East. A pacified Gulf allowed the world to benefit from lower oil prices which enabled developing countries like China to rapidly industrialize its economy. Wall Street profited the most as trillions of Petrodollars flooded into USA, which allowed it to borrow money at low cost, financing the globalization of the US economy, which led to the hallowing out of the US industrial base.

    As the US military reduces its presence in the Middle East, Pax Americana with its associated Petrodollar System is now coming to an end. After four decades of US hostility, Iran has now emerged as the leading Power in the Middle East, fully capable of imposing its political will on the region, while assuming the mantle of moral leadership not only in the Shiite World but in the Islamic World as well.

    Without the Petrodollar System, the USD would cease to be the world’s reserve currency. And THAT would mean the end of the USA Empire.

    • Replies: @Hiram of Tyre
  263. @antibeast

    But a lot of the problems in the Middle East such as the sectarian conflict between Sunnis and Shiites or the persecution of the Kurds or the rise of radical Islam had nothing to do with US foreign policy.

    It might not have had anything to do with US foreign policy but it certainly did with the Deep State – which begs the question if there is a difference.

    Sectarian conflicts were nothing new but the West surely exploited it ad nauseam. Divide and Conquer.

    The (Masonic) British-intelligence-created Muslim Brotherhood has served Anglo-American interests while being masqueraded as “Muslim”.

    Radical Islam was spread mostly by the likes of the Saud with the backing of the MI6 and CIA.

    Kurds were used and abused by the West for a century for the promise of a land that never came.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  264. antibeast says:
    @Hiram of Tyre

    The USA did support Islamic Fundamentalism against Soviet Communism in Central Asia. That’s how the CIA/MI6 came to support Saudi Wahhabism and Osama Bin Laden as a way to contain the USSR after its invasion of Afghanistan. Just before the Fall of the Soviet Union, Saddam invaded Kuwait which prompted Bush Sr. to launch the first of two wars against Iraq. Then 9-11 happened with the CIA/MI6-backed al-Qaeda/ISIS being instrumentalized by the US Deep State as an excuse to wage the genocidal ‘war on terror’ against Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya.

    But Saudi Wahhabism has been in existence for more than two centuries since the House of Saud founded the First Saudi State in 1744. During the reign of Saud bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, Saudi Arabia attacked the Shiite Holy City of Karbala, marking the start of the Sunni-Shiite sectarian conflict which has lasted to this day. Shiism itself is regarded as a heresy by the Sunnis who were persecuted by the Iranian Safavids during the reign of Shah Ismael I. Ironically enough, the Shah turned Iran into a secular State which suppressed Shiism by reviving the Persian character of Iran until Khomeini arrived and turned everything upside down.

    Maybe it’s the Law of Unintended Consequences. Nobody in the West foresaw Khomeini turning Iran into the Safavid Empire 2.0, which has had a detrimental effect on the geopolitical stability of the Middle East. Iran has effectively weaponized Shiism as an instrument of Persian Imperialism, in the same way that Saudi Arabia has gratuitously instrumentalized Wahhabism as an instrument of Saudi Imperialism, both of which has led to the revival of the Sunni-Shiite sectarian conflict ravaging much of the Muslim World today. Or maybe both the Saudi-backed Wahhabists and Iranian-backed Shiites are being treated as useful idiots who keep on fighting and killing each other while the West profits from weapons sales to the Middle East.

    In the meantime, Erdogan has started dreaming of reviving the Ottoman Empire by waging a genocidal war against the Kurds since the Syrian Civil War. As the fourth largest ethnic group in the Middle East, the Kurds were promised their own independent State of Kurdistan by the West in the Treaty of Sevres but were promptly thrown under the bus after the Turks led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk defeated the Western Powers in the Turkish War of Independence. The military victory of the Turks then led to the expulsion of Greeks from and the genocide of Armenians in Anatolia whose geopolitical repercussions are still being felt to this day. The 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is a revival of the bitter rivalry between the Turkic peoples and Armenians as the Turks backed the Turkic Azerbaijanis against the Armenians in that short-lived military conflict.

    With the Trump Doctrine effectively ending the US military presence in the Middle East, the Saudis and the UAE had to fend for themselves in the Yemen conflict which is nothing more than a proxy war against Iran. Adding fuel to the fire is Israel which has to defend itself against the Hamas in the West Bank and the Hezbollah in Lebanon, both backed by Iran which — under the Shah — used to be the most pro-Israeli country in the Middle East! In fact, Iran was so close to Israel that it was the Israelis who helped the Shah kick start his top-secret nuclear weapons program later revived by Khomeini with help from Pakistan!

    Lest I forget, the Arab-Israeli Wars preceded the US military presence in the Middle East which saw Lebanon turn into a failed State after Israel and Syria intervened in the Lebanese Civil War. To the credit of the USA, Carter did succeed in brokering the Camp David Accords which brought the Egyptians and Israelis together to sign a historic peace deal, thereby ending the Arab-Israeli Wars. That short period of Pax Americana lasted until Hussein invaded Kuwait and Iran which led to the First Gulf War and the Iraq-Iran War, respectively.

    Long story short: in the absence of dominant Powers able to keep the peace, the Middle East has turned into a powder keg waiting to explode, fueled by ancient hatreds which feed the sectarian, tribal and ethnic conflicts ravaging the volatile region since medieval times. What the Middle East needs is a system of Nation-States whose national sovereignty is recognized by something equivalent to the Treaty of Westphalia. But that’s exactly what the British and French tried to impose onto the Middle East after WWI, which failed spectacularly after they had left the region in the aftermath of WWII.

    • Replies: @Hiram of Tyre
    , @Malla
  265. @antibeast

    Western support of Islamic Fundamentalism started long before the case of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. For the sake of clarity, and I know this may sound like a same difference, but Wahhabism created the Outhouse of Saud and the Outhouse of Saud spread Wahhabism. They needed each other to get rid of rivals. Wahhab was nothing more than a deranged zealot who sought to kill anyone who didn’t follow his twisted interpretation of Islam – Sunni, Shia, Sufis, you name it. Their years-long of heinous crimes against Muslims in the region resulted in the destruction of Wahhabism in 1818 under the Ottoman Caliph Mahmud II who had ordered Egyptian forces to capture Wahhabi leaders (Wahhabi Imam Abdullah al-Saud and his followers were brought back to Istanbul where they were beheaded) and razed the Wahhabi desert capital of Diriyah. Whatever was left left of the Wahhabis lived in captivity in Cairo — big mistake. In essense, Wahhabism was over in 1818 – but it was revived by none other than the (bloody) Brits shortly after. The Brits had colonized Bahrain in 1820 and were looking for ways to expand further. In 1843, Wahhabi Imam Faisal Ibn Turki al-Saud had escaped Cairo and returned to Riyadh. He lacked money, means of war, etc. Wahhabis considered Arabs and Muslims their enemy. Knowing of the Brits, he forged an alliance – the Brits were impressed by Imam Faisal’s sadistic violence when he proclaimed that they (the Wahhabis) kill anyone. In 1865, Britain sent Colonel Pelly to establish an official treaty with the Outhouse of Saud and in 1865, they had signed a friendship treaty (money, weapons, etc in exchange of British military protection in case any power (here, it was the Ottomans) threatened them). The Brits had an expanding presence in the region, trade routes that they needed protection and above all, the German-Ottoman alliance in the way. I’ll skip the well-known details of what happened afterwards with WW1, etc. All in all, without the Brits, the chances of Wahhabism today would be unlikely.

    Law of Unintended Consequences. Almost unlikely – not to say “hell no!”. It was planned. Stability does not fuel War in the same way a healthy people does not fuel Big Pharma. Any secular leader who sought to modernize a people/nation was removed by leading (Western) powers. Let’s recall the case of Egyptian leader Mohammed Ali who sought to modernize the region after having secured technologies that had made Europe an advanced continent (paradoxically with knowledge that initially came from the East). The Brits waged war on him under a Churchill (not Winston) and destroyed his plans. So the case of the Ayatollah Khomeini served the exact same purpose: prevent the modernization, advancement, etc of Iran under the secular Shah. On a related note, and according to a recent article by Thierry Meyssan [1], the (diplomatic) rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran would serve, in reality, a similar purpose: the expansion of Jihadism against secularism – with, once again, the same Anglo-Americans backing the endeavor.

    I can’t disagree more with the opening statement of your last paragraph. It’s the presence, meddling and intervention of Western powers that has prevented the Middle East from overcoming it’s medieval past. Most in the region are like everybody else in the world – they wake up, go to work, make money, take care of their families and enjoy life. It’s the zealot minority that has always been the problem in the region and elsewhere in the world. It’s also that zealot minority that leading powers have always exploited to their advantage. Britain did so with the Wahhabis and also with al-Banna’s Muslim Brotherhood (in reviving it and remodeling it) [2]. No one in modern time has manipulated religions like the Anglo-American-Zionists.
    _____

    [1] https://www.voltairenet.org/article215416.html
    [2] https://www.voltairenet.org/article206934.html

    • Replies: @antibeast
  266. antibeast says:
    @Hiram of Tyre

    Your history of British Imperialism in the Middle East miss out their most important motive for getting involved in the geopolitics of the Middle East: the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WWI. To this end, the British enlisted the support of the Hashemite Kings to rebel against the Ottoman Empire which was divided into British and French protectorates called ‘Mandates’ after WWI. A British adventurer named St. John Philby managed to become an adviser to Ibn Saud who would later receive support from the British to conquer the Arabian Peninsula and establish the Third Saudi State known as Saudi Arabia today. Without the destruction and division of the Ottoman Empire, Saudi Arabia would not exist today as the Emirate of Jabal Shammar which was allied to the Ottoman Empire had destroyed the Second Saudi State as early as 1891. British support for Ibn Saud who had conquered the Arabian Peninsula by defeating the Emirate of Jabal Shammar in 1921 created Saudi Arabia as it exists today. By 1925, Ibn Saud had defeated the Hashemites in Hejaz, effective ending the latter’s 1,000 year reign over the Mecca and Medina.

    Long story short: Saudi Arabia is as much a British creation as the House of Saud is the creation of Ibn Saud. With the support of the CIA/MI6, Al Saud or the House of Saud would later promote Saudi Wahhabism as the ‘official’ version of Arabic Islam throughout the Islamic World. And THAT would explain the rise of radical Islam in the Muslim World today.

  267. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    The Sauds might have had British support at first but their relations was not as deep as British- Hashemite relations resulting in the USA and the Saudis coming together in love.

    From Anglo American Relations in Saudi Arabia, 1941-45 by Barry Rubin

    “In June 1943, Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes wrote to President Roosevelt that the US Government should play a greater role in running American petroleum concessions in Saudi Arabia. This step was necessary, Ickes stated, to meet the immediate demand of the Army and Navy for oil products while also serving ,to counteract certain known activities of a foreign power which presently are jeopardizing American interests in Arabian oil reserves’. The foreign power refereed to by the Interior Secretary was neither Nazi Germany nor Communist Russia, but rather America’s closest war time ally, Great Britain.
    The development of bitter American suspicions over British intentions in Saudi Arabia was fraught with irony, misperception and certain amount of farce. The British Foreign Office, generally, neither reciprocated nor merited these sentiments. Rather, they were conditioned by a general antagonism toward British Imperialism on the part of the State Department’s Near Eastern Affairs Division (NEA) and the Roosevelt Administration, the pleas of American oil companies terrified of British competition and — maneuvering by the Saudi government itself to maximize its foreign aid income by playing off Washington against London.”

    Also from The Politics and Security of the Gulf: Anglo-American Hegemony and the Shaping of a Region by Jeffrey R. Macris

    “Despite America’s preoccupation with the Soviet threat, in reality the Saudis’ chief post war security concern proved their neighboring Hashemite rivals. In the 1940s, as the Saudi monarch found himself surrounded by potentially hostile British-backed regimes, the King reversed some earlier rebuffs to the Americans and made requests to the United States for military assistance. But the Saudis wanted military assistance less to deter Soviet invasion than to deter their neighbors.
    snip…
    The Saudi monarch believed that, after he chose America over Britain as the recipient of the Saudi oil concessions, London officials set out to destroy him. The British, after all, had installed on the Iraqi and Trans-Jordanian thrones two sons of his arch rival the Sharif of Mecca whom Ibn Saud defeated in the 1920s as he swept across Arabian Peninsula. In his eyes, the Hashemite family longed to reclaim the position as custodian of the holy places, and thus viewed Ibn Saud as a foe. To bolster his defenses against the British-supported Hashemites, then, Ibn Saud felt if he had nowhere else to turn but to America, but America was not fulfilling their portion of the bargain:
    “Since [we gave our oil concession to the Americans and not the British] the British feeling [of friendship towards me] has changed. They have been looking with jealous eyes because they know we [the Saudis and Americans] have established close relations. So they have started to support the Sharifian [Hashemite] Family against me, from the military point of view…I am in a very critical situation. The British themselves will never give me any help. Those Sharifian friends of the British will find an opportunity against me. They have soldiers; they have troops and they have already sent for military equipment”
    In pleading his case, the King argued that America had a moral obligation to help, in return for the oil concessions. Ibn Saud also felt that he had put himself in a very precarious position with respect to his own people, and that only U.S assistance would help:
    “The whole people [are] saying that my country is an American colony. They are plotting against me and saying Ibn Said has given his country to the United States, even the Holy Places. They are talking against me. I have nothing, and my country and my wealth I have delivered into the hands of America””

    • Replies: @antibeast
  268. Malla says:
    @Mehool Mehta

    Do you come to Mumbai often? Not been to Delhi in a long time, have heard a lot of praise about your Delhi metro.

    Not been to Mumbai since the Pandemic. My cousin sister lives in Mumbai actually, in Worli near the start of that Worli Bandra sea bridge. She is a fashion designer working for (worked for now) the famous Neeta Lulla.

    As far as most of us Hindus, it was genocide

    Not all Muslim ruler was bad, some were tolerant. Just like the Left and Congress tries to cover uop the brutality of the Islamic invaders/rulers, Hinduvadis do the opposite, cover up the good things done and tolerance shown by some of those Islamic rulers. Both are lying shits. Both deserve each other. And Mehool Uncle, do not forget how Hindus destroyed Buddhism and when Buddhism became weak in India, India turned into a shithole, BEFORE the Islamic invasions. We had to wait till the British for recovery to begin. All the great Chinese monks who came to India, wrote of the destruction of Buddhism by Hindus. And when the Islamic invader Allaudin Khilji destroyed the great Buddhist Nalanda University, the local Bengali Hindu King of the Sena dynasty, did nothing to stop the destruction or to put out the flame. It was more like Hindu barbarians collaborated with Muslim barbarians to destroy what was left of Buddhism and thus India’s Golden age.

    white skin British looter thief

    Thief? The British did not loot anything you stupid monkey. British Empire saved India, read the travelogues of European and Arab travellers just before British Imperial Rule, India was screwed up, poor farmers raped and looted by dacoits, government preying on the poor, looting farmers, extreme difference in between rich and poor. The British united India, brought rule of law, equality before law (lower caste equal to upper caste, non Muslims equal to Muslims) British Imperial officers had low corruption and were always supported by the poor for seeking protection from arrogant native landlords, low taxation, development of irrigation systems and railways to fight famines, modern ports, universities, studies on ancient Indian civilization. Who deciphered the ancient Brahmi script and Kharosti script of Afghanistan? The British, we could not read the script of our own ancient ancestors. Who built the first Engineering college in all Asia, in India? The British at Roorkee. Who built the first museum outside Europe in India? Imperial Museum, Calcutta. The British. Who built the oldest college for women in all Asia, in India? The British (Bethune college). Who built colleges to preserve ancient Sanskrit, Pali and Prakrit texts and learning? Lord Arhmest. Who made laws to protect India’s vast number of monuments? Lord Curzon. Who made parks, libraries for common people? Who allowed lower caste people education first time in millennia? Who stopped Thugees and Pindari dacoits? Who built the largest irrigation system in the World of its time in Punjab? Why do you think 2.5 million Indians, tough ferocious warrior Sikhs, Jats, Gurkhas, Marathas, Rajputs, Pathans etc.. VOLUNTEERED to fight and die for the British Empire? You think your average Sikh or Maratha is a slave minded person? He would cut your wind pipe in 2 secs. LOL.Stop believing your Congressi and marxist lies.

    Chinese enemy snakes.

    China never wanted to be our enemy, you stupid monkey. Your government (and low IQ media) riles up you idiots against China for nationalistic reason. Who invaded whose side in 1962? Check the CIA report on 1962. China has given their hand in friendship to us many times and we like idiots have pushed it away. We could have benefitted by being friends of China. It is Chinese companies who have responded the most to your Modi’s Make in India. Where are your Vivo, Oppo, Redmi etc… phones made? Chinese companies based in India, hiring and training Indian labour and paying taxes here. Chinese Companies could have broken the stronghold of our Crony Capitalists. Chinese infrastructure companies would have helped built up our infrastructure for cheap. You guys are idiots.

  269. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    The British installed the three sons of Sharif Hussein as the Hashemite Kings for the three newly-created countries in the Middle East after WWI, as part of the ‘Sharifian Solution’ as proposed by the famous T. E. Lawrence (of ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ fame). But the three sons didn’t last long as sibling rivalry, pan-Arabist nationalists, French interests and British double-dealing overthrew two of the Hashemite Kings with only one ruler remaining in Jordan today. The British then backstabbed Sharif Hussein by supporting Ibn Saud who had defeated Sharif Hussein to control Hejaz in 1925, thereby gaining control of the two Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina, ending 1,000-years of Hashemite rule.

    But everything changed after the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia in 1938. That’s when the Americans struck gold by getting oil concessions from the House of Saud and forming the Arabia American Oil Company (ARAMCO), described by the US State Department as the ‘richest commercial prize in the history of the planet’. The US Air Force later built and operated the Dhahran Airfield from 1945 to 1962, to protect US oil interests in Saudi Arabia.

    That’s how the Americans got involved in the Middle East, purely out of their economic interests in Saudi oil and stayed out of the Arab-Israeli Conflict until Kissinger negotiated the Petrodollar deal with the House of Saud, in return for US military protection. The Petrodollar deal or ‘Kissinger Put’ turned out to the biggest financial prize in the history of the planet: “You sell me your Arab oil and I will sell you my USD.”

  270. Gary Cooper says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Special Forces Arrest Deep State Dr. Anthony Fauci
    By Michael Baxter -April 10, 2022

Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply - Comments on articles more than two weeks old will be judged much more strictly on quality and tone


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
$
Submitted comments have been licensed to The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Commenting Disabled While in Translation Mode
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Pepe Escobar Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The Surprising Elements of Talmudic Judaism
The Shaping Event of Our Modern World
Shouldn't they recuse themselves when dealing with the Middle East?