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Must We Kill the Economy to Kill the Virus?
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“We cannot let the cure be worse than the problem itself,” tweeted the president on Sunday night, adding that, after the current 15-day shutdown, “we will make a decision as to which way we want to go.”

President Trump is said to be privately expressing a deepening concern at the damage the coronavirus shutdown is doing to the U.S. economy and debating whether it can be safely reopened.

Though castigated for his remark, Trump has a point.

The U.S. is rightly using extreme measures to meet the threat and control the virus that threatens the lives of millions of Americans, with the elderly sick foremost among them. And we need to do so without killing the economy upon which scores of millions of other Americans depend.

Clearly, America was unprepared for this pandemic.

And there will be time enough to assess responsibility for the lack of surgical masks, medical gowns, rubber gloves, respirators, ventilators and hospital beds.

The immediate imperative is to produce those beds and that equipment and get it delivered to doctors, nurses and hospital staff, the front-line troops in the battle to control the virus.

However, during this shutdown, all “nonessential businesses” are being closed and their workers sent home to shelter in place and to keep “social distance” from friends and neighbors to minimize the risk of spreading this easily transmissible virus.

Unfortunately, what is “nonessential” to some — bars, restaurants, hotels, stores, cruise ships, tourist sites, shops, malls — are places of employment and indispensable sources of income for millions of other Americans.

Close the businesses where these Americans work and you terminate the paychecks on which they depend to pay the rent and buy the food and medicines they and their families need to shelter and live. And if the salaries and wages on which workers depend are cut off, how are these millions of newly unemployed supposed to live?

How do those who follow the instructions of the president and governors to remain in their homes get their prescriptions filled and buy the food to feed their families?

How long can the shutdown be sustained if the necessities of life for the unemployed and unpaid begin to run out? Is it necessary to create an economic and social crisis to solve the medical crisis?

“We had to destroy the village in order to save it,” was a remark attributed to a U.S. Army officer in the Vietnam War. Must we cripple or destroy the economy to rescue the American nation from the coronavirus crisis of 2020?

Then there is the matter of time. Many Americans can survive on what they have on hand for two or four weeks. Far fewer can survive without income for two or four months.

If we shut down the economy, what will we have when the medical crisis passes, be that in May, June, July, August or September?

Will all those nonessential businesses we put to sleep come back to life?

ORDER IT NOW

The free market system that is the legacy of Hamilton and the Founding Fathers is the world’s best design for the distribution of goods and services and ensuring prosperity. And in a population where life expectancy is decades beyond what it was in the early 20th century, there are government programs to provide the necessities of life for those who can no longer access or afford them.

But businesses are needed to deliver the goods.

And if, by government command, America’s free economy is partly shut down as unessential in this medical crisis, the government could be responsible for imposing the conditions that lead to social disorder.

At some point, the country is going to have to open up the supply chains and take the risks to let the market work to provide food — or people will engage in panic buying, hoarding and using any means to get what they need for themselves and their families.

Reports of folks in this heavily armed nation stocking up on guns and ammunition suggest a widespread apprehension of what may be coming.

If the medical crisis is allowed to induce an economic crisis that leads to a social crisis, the American political system, our democratic system, may itself be severely tested.

Lest we forget: In the greatest crisis in this nation’s history, in which the issue was whether the American Union would be severed into two nations, Abraham Lincoln suspended the right of habeas corpus, shut down state legislatures, closed newspapers, jailed journalists and was prepared to arrest the chief justice. And for the dictatorial measures he took, and for waging the bloodiest war in U.S. history, against fellow Americans, Lincoln is now regarded by many as our greatest president.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of “Nixon’s White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever.”

Copyright 2020 Creators.com.

 
• Category: Economics • Tags: Coronavirus, Disease 
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  1. That was a reasonable column in general, but I’d like to ask Mr. Buchanan: Are you saying you those who say Lincoln was our greatest President are correct? I sure am not.

  2. NoNwoNow says: • Website

    Yet there is another solution. If you can test everybody who needs it, you can quarantine everyone who is infected, and let the rest lead their normal lives. This worked in Singapore and even in one town in Italy.
    Moreover, if you can cure or abate the disease before people are critically ill, they won’t need intensive care. So if we keep ramping up the supply of test kits, while rolling out anti-viral drugs, we can eradicate the virus without a disaster.
    Read the entire article here:
    http://www.progressivepress.com/dox/Common-Sense-vs-the-Coronavirus.doc

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @Realist
  3. The government is making decisions without sufficient information. And the (((media))) WANTS an economic disaster just to get rid of Trump.

    Rather than wreck the economy, test widely for the virus and isolate those who have it. Mandate masks for all. Keep the old people at home.

    This worked for Japan.

    Of course Japan isn’t crippled by diversity……

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  4. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Good question. But we all know that Mr. Buchanan will never respond.

    And what did he say in this supposedly “reasonable” column about anything at all? Back, forth — like he’s talking/nodding to a clone of himself on a Sunday morning network TV show.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  5. Anon[348] • Disclaimer says:

    Shutting down non-essential businesses is necessary to shut down this virus. Otherwise it will go on for a long time and overwhelm our health system like in Italy and Spain. We could fix the food and drug supply issue by classifying farm, food distribution, grocers and pharmacies as essential workers.

    The current stimulus package that calls for $1,000 to each family is absolutely asinine. Most people who still have their jobs will not need this check. There is also no place to spend it with everything closed, except to spend it on Amazon. No wonder Amazon stock keeps going back up.

    It’s also ridiculous to use the stimulus to bail out highly leveraged, poorly run industries esp. those in the travel industry – airlines, hotels, casinos, cruise ships, even restaurants. Not only are most of these industries over leveraged and poorly run, but they are also responsible for bringing us the pandemic, and for hiring the largest number of cheap foreign workers. Do not bail out these businesses. Let the poorly run ones go under. Cut the stimulus to $200B and use it to extend unemployment benefits to citizens; deport the laid off non-citizens. Defeat globalism and immigration in one fell swoop. Win-win.

  6. AaronInMVD says: • Website
    @Anon

    For reasons of math and historic examples of how viral pandemics work in mammals, the fastest way out would be to do nothing and ignore the virus so that it burns through quickly. This happens with surprising frequency when the folks picking strain for the year’s flu vaccine guess wrong. And, no business is non-essential to the people depending on it for their livelihood. So far Most people getting sick with the COVID-19 get unpleasantly sick or don’t realize they were sick. 99% of the fatalities are in the morbidly old or morbidly ill.

    Now that the panic’s been hyped up, there’s no way out. For reasons of how democracy works, the panic will be appeased. Expensively. Very Expensively. More will suffer and experience pre-mature mortality due to the economic consequences of the panic than than virus itself, because the economic damage here is going to last far longer.

    • Agree: Daniel H, follyofwar
    • Replies: @Anon
  7. @anonymous

    You do have a good point there. The column sounds like 2 talking-heads, but at least it ain’t the Ragin’ Cajun and some of the more idiotic of them.

    I saw that guy Carville a few years ago at an airport. I said “hey, are you still on TV?” “Yeah.” “Well, I didn’t know, I’m on the internet now.” I let it go at that.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  8. Anon[153] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronInMVD

    99% of the fatalities are in the morbidly old or morbidly ill.

    Death rate is high in Italy (and increasingly Spain) because a large number of the hospitalized are young people. Over 25% of hospital beds are taken up by those 20-45. This means anyone over 70 is basically left to fend for themselves, who are also the most vulnerable. The 20-45 are hospitalized at such a high rate because a large number (~25%) are smokers. Spain is even worse, with over 1/3 ages 15-64 smoking daily.

    My point is this virus is also hitting the young very hard, not just the old and the sick.

    Trump cares too much about the economy. If he reopens everything soon, we will be like Italy. The young will take up all the hospital beds, and the old will die. When fatality rate goes up, Trump is done for, doesn’t matter how high the DJIA goes back up to.

    • Replies: @AaronInMVD
    , @Thomas Milton
  9. Anon[153] • Disclaimer says:

    South Korea and Taiwan avoided large scale shutdowns because they were smart about tracking down everyone who was exposed, actively testing and quarantining those who tested positive. We are too big of a country and do not have the manpower to track so many people down. Most people will also be very upset at that kind of surveillance, so we have no alternative but to shut everything down, unless we want to turn into Italy.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
  10. It’s not a choice between Deal and Heal.

    We can have Deal for most and Heal for those who need it most.

  11. AaronInMVD says: • Website
    @Anon

    If the panic wasn’t dialed up to 11, would the young people who aren’t already ill from smoking and pepsi drinking related diseases have sought hospital care?

    Further in the case of Italy, that country has been a basket case for a very long time. These aren’t the Romans that owned the West. These are the still softer descendants of the would-be Romans that failed to take Ethiopia despite a long string of victories in that campaign.

    The Chinese and South Koreans seem to have world class healthcare systems and populations that can be mobilized to do things. What does Italy have?

    The US indeed seems rather screwed in their panic. Other expats I know further north in LATAM made the decision to go back to the zone and take a break from expat’ing while this play out. I on the other hand don’t see any reason to ride this out in any country other than Uruguay. The population here is enthusiastically distancing and the shelves are stocked roughly as well as they normally are.

    Yes, being sick sucks. Just would many of these people who are sick and suffering have gone to the hospital if it wasn’t for the damned panic. Right now there is a lot of enthusiasm for snuffing out the remains of human freedom and shutting down the “non-essentials”, but the longer the panic survives the more damage will be on the other side. Since almost everybody is going to be a survivor of this, I suspect a lot of buyers remorse in October.

    I don’t dislike Trump. I suspect he’s not done for, but the only way the DJIA is going back up is against a far weakened dollar. You can’t have economy without activity.

    • Agree: follyofwar
    • Troll: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @John Johnson
  12. Well, we tried closing most of the economy in the UK, and it wasn’t enough: many people still gathered for leisure activities, and the number of cases is still rising rapidly. So from today we are all under semi-house-arrest, allowed out only for specific purposes such as buying food.

    If the virus is allowed to spread, millions of Americans will die from it this year. This is not scaremongering or pessimism, but a cautious estimate based on 40% of the population catching the virus and 2% of the infected dying from it.

    If the virus does not itself die out after this year’s epidemic, but remains endemic in the population, then in years to come we can expect regular epidemics in which a mutated form of the virus evades the immunity that people have developed from previous infections – the virus would behave like influenza or the common cold, but far more deadly. One blogger on this site estimated that such epidemics would reduce life expectancy in the developed world by 2 years.

    We do not yet know whether a vaccine is feasible, because the virus mutates rapidly: it may be that the best efforts produce something like the vaccine for seasonal flu, effective only for the 3 most dangerous forms of the virus identified in the wild 6 months before the flu season.

    The argument against attempting to eradicate Covid-19 is that, to be effective, this must be done globally. The worst situation of all would be to spend trillions of dollars to stamp out the virus in the USA, only to find that, when international travel is restored, it brings so many new cases that the epidemic begins all over again.

  13. @Achmed E. Newman

    Lincoln fans don’t talk about his dirty secrets like how he suspended the constitution or how he privately didn’t believe in racial equality.

    Lincoln fans just say he was the greatest president and nothing more.

  14. @Anon

    The current stimulus package that calls for $1,000 to each family is absolutely asinine. Most people who still have their jobs will not need this check.

    I don’t need the check but I’ll take it. They give out money to just about everyone else. Sure it is a crude solution but we can’t expect much else from them right now.

    It’s also ridiculous to use the stimulus to bail out highly leveraged, poorly run industries esp. those in the travel industry – airlines, hotels, casinos, cruise ships, even restaurants.

    The vast majority of hotels and restaurants pretty much live on monthly revenue and can’t last on savings. They aren’t corps with deep pockets. So you either bail them out or put their employees on unemployment and scuttle the business. That’s too much permanent damage. Cruise ships though should be told to go to hell since they all use tax avoidance schemes. Airlines are a mixed bag. We could let a few go bankrupt but they’d probably be bought out by foreign companies.

    The bail outs for the corps are zero percent interest loans. The MSM though isn’t being clear on that.

    • Replies: @Anon
  15. @AaronInMVD

    Yes, being sick sucks. Just would many of these people who are sick and suffering have gone to the hospital if it wasn’t for the damned panic.

    In Italy the hospitals are completely overwhelmed and it has nothing to do with panic.

    They are doing military triaging and medical workers are about to collapse. They have more hospital beds per capita than the US so we definitely don’t want to end up like them.

    In the US there are probably people showing up at hospitals for tests but that is the fault of the government (including Democrats) for not getting enough tests ready. Even today there aren’t enough tests and it is unlikely they will meet demand within weeks if not months.

    Democrats are blaming Trump but they were the ones calling travel bans racist and they didn’t have anything to say about tests when it was starting to spread two months ago. They were focused on the primary and getting rid of Bernie.

    • Replies: @AaronInMVD
  16. @John Johnson

    Lincoln fans don’t talk about his dirty secrets like how he suspended the constitution or how he privately didn’t believe in racial equality…

    …or fought to retain the mulatto states with their inflated representation, rather than expel them under Article IV, Section 4.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  17. At some point, the country is going to have to open up the supply chains and take the risks to let the market work to provide food…

    My twelve-year-old pointed out today that the Spanish flu panic was followed quickly by the prosperity of the Roaring Twenties.

    I’d add thanks to the ultimate do-nothing president, Warren Gamaliel Harding. Who, rightly, did nothing.

  18. Andy says:

    You have to close almost everything for two weeks, including grounding most flights and putting roadblocks on most roads and highways, and get most people to remain at their homes during that period. This is the longest incubation period of this virus, and during that fortnight we can locate those infected and we isolate them from the rest. Infection rates will fall dramatically, and after that the economy can go on. This is onerous, no question, but the US economy can withstand being stopped for two weeks. The other option is to get this virus to explode (which is what is happening right now) which will prove ultimately more expensive. Soon there would be not enough beds and ventilators for everyone infected, and many people would die that otherwise could have survived. not only far more people would die but it would also be far more disruptive to the economy.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    , @map
  19. @Anon

    As for people with jobs supposedly not needing the relief checks, speak for yourself. Completely out of touch with how much tens of millions of working Americans are living and struggling, and not just the poor or minimum-wage workers by any means.

    Middle-income and upper-middle-income people in many places are struggling with housing costs and medical costs above all, and their situation generally is not improving in recent years.

    As a factual correction, the proposals on both sides are not for $1,000 per family; they are for $1,000 or $1,200 or more to each adult, plus $500 for each child, and I’m glad they are.

    This would be a better use of taxpayer money — or money conjured out of thin air by the federal reserve — than most of what the fed gov has been doing. That includes the vast sums we have spent on unnecessary wars and occupations that are neither defensive nor retaliatory.

    Senator Rand Paul wisely proposed cutting war spending to help pay for the relief package. We should go much, much farther than he proposed and slash hundreds of billions of dollars in annual military spending and instead give it directly to US Citizens here at home.

    We should also consider placing a permanent floor under Americans, not just a fleeting relief package that ends when this virus quiets down. Very large cuts to the warfare state and the welfare-state bureaucracy alike can provide funding for a substantial monthly universal basic income for all US Citizens age 21 and over — with less government borrowing than we have now.

    Public ownership of our God-given natural resources could provide another large source of funding for the UBI — without any government borrowing at all.

    Of course, these ideas are too responsible for either Dems or Republicans to even debate. Instead, they’ll do a sensible and just thing, directly helping Americans rather than big connected corporations and banks, but they’ll recklessly borrow to do so.

    There is a middle way and we should be negotiating it.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @Realist
    , @Anon
  20. @Achmed E. Newman

    Œnophile Al wouldn’t have been too happy in Prohibition America, but he and the President would have had a good chat.

    Stewart now lives in or near Napa Valley, and calls its temptations “a vast red wine conspiracy”.

  21. @RadicalCenter

    Republicans and Democrats in the house had already reached a compromise last week but Democrats in the senate are now holding it up.

    So in comes Pelosi with a new bill that includes a diversity reporting board, carbon offsetting, minority banking, solar energy subsidies, early voting…..you can’t make this stuff up.

    The MSM is running defense as usual and not talking about this new grab bag of demands but when Democrats go dumb it tends to spread on the internet anyways.

  22. @Reg Cæsar

    You and your 12 year old think doing nothing is the best approach?

    So you wouldn’t mind getting in an accident only to be taken to a hospital where the floors are covered in virus victims? Then they look at your broken arm and decide you can hold out for a while with pain killers. Of course you have the virus now as well.

    It could get even worse to where you have to wait a couple days just to see a doctor since they are all overworked. If it gets bad enough they will stop showing up completely. There is no law that requires them to stay on the job.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  23. @Achmed E. Newman

    When, referring to Maduro, Pompeo and Little Marco asked, “What kind of Tyrant prevents food and medicine from getting to needy people,” I tweeted (my first and only tweets) an answer, “Abraham Lincoln.”

    I mentioned this on another thread, but it’s worth sharing again. All of this self quarantining and government restrictions brought to mind the old Creepshow segment, “They’re Creeping Up On You,” about an old man in a sterile environment who gets overrun by cockroaches during a blackout.

  24. Daniel H says:
    @Anon

    South Korea and Taiwan avoided large scale shutdowns because they were smart about tracking down everyone who was exposed,

    Bullshit. That’s impossible to do.

    • Agree: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @botazefa
  25. Realist says:

    Must We Kill the Economy to Kill the Virus?

    Not to mention more of our liberty.

  26. Realist says:
    @NoNwoNow

    If you can test everybody who needs it, you can quarantine everyone who is infected, and let the rest lead their normal lives.

    What the hell does test everybody who needs it mean?

    Your comment is meaningless.

  27. Realist says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Senator Rand Paul wisely proposed cutting war spending to help pay for the relief package. We should go much, much farther than he proposed and slash hundreds of billions of dollars in annual military spending and instead give it directly to US Citizens here at home.

    Yes, military spending should be cut down to one hundred billion dollars…max.

    • Replies: @calculator
  28. @Achmed E. Newman

    Moses has come down from the mountain —
    “The free market system that is the legacy of Hamilton and the Founding Fathers is the world’s best design for the distribution of goods and services and ensuring prosperity.”

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  29. wildbeard says:

    Yes we must Pat. If Trump didn’t want to tank the economy, he shouldn’t be handling the crisis like an ignortant, stupid, and weak jack ass.

    At this point we are headed toward all possible bad outcomes.

    I just hope this doesn’t ruin Trump’s chances for reelection. We need conservative courts to keep whatever civil liberties that remain. Furthermore, maybe, Trump will stand strong enough to keep the ykw from flooding the country with immigrants during his second term.

  30. @Robert Dolan

    The biggest problem with testing widely is that the amount of cases are sure to spike, which will lead to even more panic among the public. The anti-Trump media will only report the amount of new cases without providing any other context, and the the public at large has little knowledge of how statistics are constantly manipulated by those with an agenda to get the results they seek. As the old saying goes: there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

    The media fails to report that the vast majority who have died have been the sick and elderly. Speaking for myself, as a healthy senior, I will not wall myself up into my house, I will go out for exercise when I feel like it, and I have no plans to take the C-19 test. I won’t play into their hands.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  31. the government could be responsible

    Lol…

    We know that will never happen.

    And they will never be held accountable for the unnecessary panic they’ve manufactured.

  32. @animalogic

    What version of the Old Testament is that verse from, AL? I’d like a couple of copies. It sounds like they finally got it right.

  33. @Realist

    Well it may be meaningless to you but not to most of us. Let me explain. Back in the day if you fell and bruised a knee, Mom would give you one hug, one kiss, brush off the dust from the scrape, rub some disinfectant on it and send you packing ie back out to play. If you continued crying or whimpering Dad would give you one holler followed by one thump or you were ignored or sent to your room for the rest of the day. This tended to “de-pussify” the youth. Sympathy and empathy tended to last a few seconds.

    Fast forward to 2020. Little Billy slips and bruises his knee. The whole household flies into a panic. Fruitcake Dad and Soccer Mom flip out, Billy is wailing and screaming, his brother Bobby also starts shrieking because everyone else is, his sister who is on her cell (and has been there for the past 4 hours talking shit) tells her friend that Billy is all busted up. “This is sooooooooo totally annoying. I am stressed and “hyperventilating” she brays into the phone. Mom and Dad start screaming at each other, then the kids until the whole house is in an uproar. Granpa happens over at this precise moment “What the fuck ! You scraped your knee and crying like a baby ? You are 12 years old! I can hear you all hollering and bellowing from the driveway” But Granpa is shoved aside. He is an old fart living in the past.

    Maybe Billy has a busted knee, a ruptured spleen, a fractured skull, ingrown toenail, concussion, tape worm and rectal piles from all the hollering. He must have medical attention. This is serious. They all pile into the SUV and screech off to emergency. After a 10 hour wait the Doctor sees Billy, still whimpering, still hugged and kissed and consoled. “No problem” says the good Doctor. He gives Billy a lollipop, brushes the dust off the bruise, rubs some cream on, puts on a cheap plaster and sends them packing.

    This shit will continue for all three children well into teens, twenties and adulthood. They end up being a weak lot and when Dad and Mom get thrown into a hole 6 feet deep and these kids realize the world does not give a damn about them and their problems and there is no one to coddle them, that is when they become basket cases.

    That is an example of the Doctor seeing everybody who needs it and is the precursor of the Doctor testing everybody who needs it. Make sense now.

    It also explains why we have a three or four generations who collapse at the slightest “setback” and so many basket cases running around frightened to death of every little thing

  34. KenH says:

    I notice all the people calling for a national lockdown or consider the deliberations to do such a thing as a form of entertainment are trust fund kids of the alt-right and radical left, politicians, journos and commentators. Pat Buchanan is in this category.

    All of these people will get paid and eat no matter what unlike the vast majority of Americans who will suffer very real consequences in the event of a national lockdown. The grocery stores are supposed to remain open but people who have little to no savings or live paycheck to paycheck won’t be able to buy food.

    Many states and localities have closed bars and restaurants but have the fancy bars and restaurants and queer nightclubs been closed in and around the D.C. swamp? To the best of my knowledge they haven’t. Life goes on as usual in the Swamp or the Bubble. Take your pick.

    Trump and the Republicans are currently channeling their inner Andrew Yang to provide temporary relief for those people but the old bitch Pelosi is trying to lard the bill with all kinds of far left wing initiatives like same say voter registration and more funding for planned parenthood.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  35. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Pieces of history is picked up by you and presented as the best example of some intervention that shaped that history- famine war depression but is then ignored by you.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  36. Rosie says:

    Trump and the Republicans are currently channeling their inner Andrew Yang to provide temporary relief for those people but the old bitch Pelosi is trying to lard the bill with all kinds of far left wing initiatives like same say voter registration and more funding for planned parenthood.

    An old bitch is exactly what she is, and of course the MSM shills will run cover for her.

    They want to overturn the 2016 election, as if they haven’t already done so. I grow so tired of this charade. Can’t we just have an old-fashioned dictator, already? It would be so much simpler and more honest.

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  37. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:

    If we shut down the economy, what will we have when the medical crisis passes, be that in May, June, July, August or September?”

    We don’t know but corporate should be the last person to predict and offer solution .

    Tell me if tomorrow nobody visits Hawai and those airlines catering to that needs collapse , will you bail out that airlines. Its a supply and demand. Let it sink and then draw passengers by doing a better job .

    Third question – how will you persuade people to go to work who fears his or his family’s health’s will not be taken care by hospital and his sick pay will not be covered by corporations .

    Sometimes there is no solution but that doesn’t mean you jump to same proven remedy ( planned by the corporate) that created this crisis sensitive stock market .

    “Creating business opportunity ” is a lie. They even turned the corporate into a human entity but did not ask it to be held in the same standard for tax or for for malpractice purpose .

  38. @follyofwar

    I think testing would work against the panic because it would provide a huge denominator that would SHOW people a very low death rate.

    Right now the lying (((media))) is fixated on people dying and fear porn and we need to get rid of the bad orange man.

    If word could get out showing that most people have zero to mild symptoms it would alleviate the fears.

    The obvious solution is massive testing and it couldn’t cost more than the trillions they are giving to the jews on Wall St.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  39. AaronInMVD says: • Website
    @John Johnson

    Well, entropy, exponential curves, the placebo effect, and mass hysteria are all things that are seemingly getting discounted through this. The consensus is usually wrong, with how wrong it is relating to how pervasive the consensus holds.

    I suspect the situation in the US is going to be grim because the political plays up there seem to keep getting bloodier.

    I remain comfortable in my decision to remain in Uruguay in this crisis. Unlike the rest of LATAM, the government isn’t sending out police to shut down transit. The Uruguayos are sheltering in place on their own http://mvdstandard.net/2020/03/montevideo-shopping-saturday-afternoon-one-week-into-the-sanitary-emergency/

    With few formal orders, the people here are embracing the government’s suggestions. The leftist opposition is trying to make noise, but they are incredibly toothless and mostly baiting to get more police and military on the streets so they can hang the President with that after this passes. This situation doesn’t speak highly to the agency of the average Uruguayo, but it does suggest a need to revisit whether Italy can be considered first world.

    I suspect the situation here can degrade quite a bit as more confirmed cases come in. The population here leans rather elderly.

    Still, did more people lose their lives in 9/11 or did more lose their lives in the ongoing reaction to 9/11?

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  40. Corvinus says:
    @Anon

    Well stated, especially this part of the comment that MUST be reiterated –> Do not bail out these businesses. Let the poorly run ones go under. Cut the stimulus to $200B and use it to extend unemployment benefits to citizens; deport the laid off non-citizens**.

    **Sure, what the hell. But does Trump and company have the guts to do it? And what about his grandiose scheme to “Drain the swamp”? When is “The Storm” upon u.s.?”

    “Defeat globalism and immigration in one fell swoop. Win-win.”

    Sacrifices MUST be made by u.s. in order to destroy those two scourges! In that way, we showcase our vitality and strength as a human, I mean, the white, race.

    Hat Tip –> Thomas (a commenter)

    “The Wall Street mandarins and establishment cucks are pushing Trump to reopen everything while the spread of this thing as far as we can tell is still getting worse and at a faster rate…Trump got elected more than anything because his voters had had it with being told they should be replaced for the good of the all-sacred economy. It’ll be a tragic irony if he winds up killing off a few hundred thousand (or a couple million) of his voters in sacrifice to Mammon.”

  41. Meena says:

    Economy i sin the same milestone it was in 2016 . Number of companies have not markedly gone up

    So Dow hitting 19,000 shouldn’t be hitting a panic button . The prices were hyped up with P/E ratio being often in 3 digits when it ideally PE ratio should be in 10-20 . Why is this panic of economy (real ) tanking?

  42. Realist says:
    @calculator

    Well it may be meaningless to you but not to most of us.

    It’s funny you think you speak for most of us.

    Let me explain.

    If you have to explain…you failed in your comment.

    That is an example of the Doctor seeing everybody who needs it and is the precursor of the Doctor testing everybody who needs it. Make sense now.

    Nope…you’re still a dumbass.

  43. @John Johnson

    You and your 12 year old think doing nothing is the best approach?

    That was in reference to the economy, not an epidemic. Feed a fever, starve a cold.

  44. @anon

    Pieces of history is picked up by you and presented as the best example of some intervention that shaped that history- famine war depression but is then ignored by you.

    Can you repeat this in comprehensible English syntax, please? I might address your point once I determine what it is.

  45. KA says:

    “. 1 As businesses deal with the prospect of a sudden stop in their cash flows, the most exposed are a relatively new generation of companies that already struggle to pay their loans. This class includes the “zombies”— companies that earn too little even to make interest payments on their debt, and survive only by issuing new debt.

    2 The level of debt in America’s corporate sector amounts to 75 percent of the country’s gross domestic product, breaking the previous record set in 2008. Among large American companies, debt burdens are precariously high in the auto, hospitality and transportation sectors — industries taking a direct hit from the coronavirus.

    3 Hidden within the $16 trillion corporate debt market are many potential troublemakers, including the zombies

    3 The average American company owned by a private equity firm has debts equal to six times its annual earnings, a level twice what ratings agencies consider “junk.”

    Opinion | This Is How the Coronavirus Will Destroy the Economy – The New York Times

    Ruchir Sharma

    Pat sound look into what’s behind the soaring Dow of 2019 Dec.

  46. Anon[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @RadicalCenter

    UBI is never going to work when you have open borders, and a Democratic party and media that essentially want to treat every foreigner who steps foot on US soil as a de facto citizen. Watch for the cries about omitting green card holders, all visa holders, DACA, DAPA, “undocumented migrants” yada yada, it never ends. We’ll end up paying everybody and his mother who can find their way in.

    Charles Murray proposed a UBI in his book In Our Hands, published in 2016, where he proposed $10k for every citizen over 21 and did the math on how it could work. It could only work if it’s:
    1) restricted to citizens only, no green card holders or any other non-citizen
    2) replaces all other welfare schemes incl. food stamps, housing subsidy, medicare, medicaid, social security

    Good luck achieving both.

  47. @Andy

    So, you’re an expert on the virus as well as the economy, and to think that you learned it all on CNN.

  48. @Robert Dolan

    OK, but first a test is needed that can actually identify a particular virus. The tests currently being used can’t identify a specific virus, even if they didn’t throw so many false results. Quarantines and testing do nothing in the case of a pandemic, which, by the way, doesn’t currently exist except by WHO decree.

    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  49. Anon[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Johnson

    Hotels and restaurants are also the biggest globalist/liberal employers of cheap foreign labor, among the biggest supporters of open borders and illegal immigration along with Big Ag and Big Tech. I really could care less if more of them go under. In fact, it would be good for America if more of them do.

    In my area a new Chinese restaurant pops up every other day serving regional Chinese cuisine, catering primarily to a clientele of FOB Chinese, i.e. immigrants serving other immigrants, in what way are they benefiting America? It’d be good for at least half if not all of them to go under so these people can pack it up and go back to where they belong, so the rest of us can enjoy less congestion, pollution, fewer trees getting cut down to build their homes.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  50. @Twodees Partain

    It’s worked in all of the countries that happen to be adjacent to China.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  51. @Realist

    Mandatory tests for everyone over 60, or who has a compromised immune system. Quarantine those groups.

    Not saying it’s practical, but I’m guessing that’s what was meant.

    • Replies: @Realist
  52. Realist says:
    @TomSchmidt

    Not saying it’s practical, but I’m guessing that’s what was meant.

    If you have to guess what he meant…his comment is meaningless.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  53. @AaronInMVD

    Still, did more people lose their lives in 9/11 or did more lose their lives in the ongoing reaction to 9/11?

    How is that relevant to the current threat?

    Just because the left wants to exploit a national crisis does not mean that the crisis itself is exaggerated.

    Do I need to post videos from Italian hospitals? Their health system is completely overwhelmed to where people are not able to get surgeries. They ran out of beds weeks ago and they have more beds per capita than the US.

    The Italians also didn’t take it seriously when the numbers were low. They kept going to soccer games and didn’t start isolating until the hospitals had already filled up. Their own left-wing politicians called travel bans against the Chinese racist and their right didn’t do anything as usual.

  54. @Anon

    Hotels and restaurants are also the biggest globalist/liberal employers of cheap foreign labor

    I am fully aware that they use a lot of illegal labor in liberal states like California but in middle America the smaller family owned hotels depend on rural Whites.

    It’d be good for at least half if not all of them to go under so these people can pack it up and go back to where they belong

    Well we can’t pick and choose.

    You would be destroying rural White towns if you let restaurants collapse.

    Tiny towns can’t take a 20% drop in sale tax revenue. A lot of those towns were already on the edge.

    If you don’t bail them out then the workers go on unemployement. There is no free lunch here.

    • Replies: @Anon
  55. botazefa says:
    @Daniel H

    Very easy to do if you mine cell phone data for GPS matching. In other words, when someone tests positive you pull phone id’s for everyone who’s cell phone has been within gps range of the infected’s cell phone.

  56. So you all think the “free market” is the solution to the coronavirus.

    You are morons. Now proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

    Everybody now knows the money tree is the solution to the coronavirus.

    And you people were just brainwashed (do you even understand what brainwashing is?) imbecile moron cretin idiots.

  57. @Anon

    I had to think hard about the last time I had the flu. Over 15 yrs. I would get a little cold or flu every third or fourth year into my thirties. And then it stopped. What changed? Late in life I STARTED smoking.

  58. @Rosie

    We must face facts, representative democracy in the USofA has failed miserably and has died. It has been failing more with each passing year, but has finally been killed by Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the slimy ilk who control the media, all in their sworn mission, since 2016, to take out “Orange Man Bad” by any and all means necessary.

    Things will come to a head when Trump decides that cowering under the blankets in our apartments is not working, and we must resume somewhat normal activities. Then they’ll be howling like crazed banshees for more free stuff to protect themselves from the Black Death that lurks in the air outside of their hovels, as we quickly descend into a Third World hellhole.

    Democracy is mostly an overrated scam anyway. A good source is “The End of Democracy” by Christophe Buffin de Chosal.

    Rosie, Trump as a dictator would be a vast improvement over the fetid cesspool we have now. But I’d much rather see this far too large and far too diverse empire break up into several smaller, more manageable, and more homogeneous, free nations.

    • Agree: Rosie, AaronInMVD
  59. Friendly reminder that Wuhan Flu is a nothing burger being hyped by the liberal media to generte hysteria to crash the economy to try to hurt Trump’s relection.

    Compare with Sars during Obama.

  60. @calculator

    Fantastic comment! (Maybe as not related to the Kung Flu, I dunno, but just in general.)

  61. @Robert Dolan

    So they say on TV. The news media never lies, right?

  62. nsa says:

    It’s always tougher going first. The Chinese showed Asia and the West how to handle the influenza problem efficiently. It took three weeks for the CPC to recognize the problem, shoot the idiot running Wuhan, and then take the necessary measures……..sticking a temperature gun to the forehead of everyone getting on or off a plane or boat or bus or train or entering a store. Those with a temp were then tested, and if positive quarantined along with all their relatives, friends, and contacts. Two months later the Chinese are back in business. Problem solved. Now check out how the pols here have handled the problem. Spend eight weeks indulging in schadenfreude and badmouthing the Chicoms while denying a problem exists here. When the problem becomes too serious to ignore, install a rigorous testing regimen lacking only one thing….test kits. Ask the population at large, sick or not, to self-quarantine insuring non-compliance, and shut down small business so all non-internet trade comes to a screeching halt. And then pass a law bombing the whole society with helicopter money……manna from heaven. And the best is yet to come……

  63. Corvinus says:

    No, Patrick, we should #DieForTheDow

    “No one reached out to me and said, ‘as a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?’” Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick said. “And if that’s the exchange, I’m all in.”

  64. @Realist

    Well, I need to process it to extract information. Bayes’ theorem, and all that. Its meaning was certainly uncertain.

    I don’t think it’s one of those ambiguities meant to mislead, like “any employer would be fortunate to have Realist work for him.” Just bad communication.

  65. MEexpert says:

    The U.S. is rightly using extreme measures to meet the threat and control the virus that threatens the lives of millions of Americans, with the elderly sick foremost among them. And we need to do so without killing the economy upon which scores of millions of other Americans depend.

    The elderly are getting the double whammy. On the one hand, they are dying because of this virus, because they can’t get medical attention or supplies. On the other hand because of the economy they are losing their savings (401K). So if they survive the Coronavirus, they would die of poverty.

    Trump needs to bail out the elderly.

    • Disagree: botazefa
  66. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Johnson

    Well we can’t pick and choose.

    Of course we can. Stipulate that all stimulus benefits will go to citizens only. Non-citizen business owners are on their own. Those who can’t pay their bills can leave on their own or face deportation and confiscation of all their assets. Non-citizen unemployed must also leave within 24 hours.

  67. anaccount says:

    It appears to be true that Covid prefers cold climates. That or it prefers to infect Chinese, Iranian and White Europeans. Africa is a big continent that is ill equipped for easily contained Ebola outbreaks. But unlike Covid, Ebola kills with little regard for age. Ebola is a concern for Africa’s young population, Covid probably isn’t. I also doubt that there is anything approaching an accurate count in Africa so I don’t know.

    But then I look at this list and I start to wonder.

    Covid’s Top 10 Shit List
    3/24/2020

    1. 81,591 China
    2. 69,176 Italy
    3. 55,148 US
    4. 42,058 Spain
    5. 32,991 Germany
    6. 24,811 Iran
    7. 22,633 France
    8. 9,877 Switzerland
    9. 9,137 Korea, South
    10. 8,164 United Kingdom

  68. NoNwoNow says:

    If you have enough test kits you don’t have to be too picky.
    We haven’t been testing people that really needed it – people with symptoms – because not enough kits.
    I didn’t think i “needed” to go into a long discursion about criteria for testing. Let alone a theoretical discussion of what does “need” mean.

    By the way there is now a html blog version of my article here
    http://www.progressivepress.com/blog-entry/common-sense-vs-coronavirus

  69. NoNwoNow says:
    @Realist

    If you have all the test kits you “need” then you can test as many people as needed to ensure herd immunity.
    We have never had even a small percent of the test kits we needed.
    So need is something you have to judge according to circumstances. Like triage. Or your budget.

    It would be good to test everyone with symptoms, everyone who has been in contact with someone who is sick, and a few more people at random to get a handle on what the virus spread is doing under the radar.

    Maybe we don’t need to get in a tizzy over semantics and we do need to come to grips with the problem.

    It would be nice if someone would read the article. I spent a lot of time on it.
    http://www.progressivepress.com/blog-entry/common-sense-vs-coronavirus

    • Replies: @calculator
  70. Unz is right and Buchanan is wrong. Risking public health for the sake of earnings, interest, dividends, etc. is a stupid move. Better the economy crash, businesses fail and change ownership, the grasshoppers are punished and the ants get their due. Aesop was right.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  71. Wielgus says:
    @John Johnson

    He suspended the constitution during a civil war. Few states operate business as normal under those conditions. He never as far as I know expressed public belief in racial equality either – he merely opposed slavery and was not as radical against it as some abolitionists would have liked.
    anyway the South had its dirty linen, like Lee’s troops invading Pennsylvania and driving some Blacks they captured back to the South as presumed escaped slaves, even though some had always been free.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  72. I am baffled by the freak out over this virus. You’d think there were a million dead bodies in the street. Reasonable measures, sure. But total shut dow?

    Now I’m starting to suspect there’s something we aren’t being told.

  73. @Realist

    Your handle is Realist but you are not a Realist. You seem to be a hobo dunce who fires off comments without really thinking. Go to the Emergency Room of any hospital or Mediclinic and ask everyone there if they really NEED to be there. They will all tell you they need to be there to be tested for whatever. Yet the majority will sit there for many hours with a medical complaint that is minor or that can be handled at home. Ten sometimes thirteen hours later they are tested and assured there is nothing wrong OR they are sent on a wild goose chase of this and that test thereby boosting the income of the clinic when nothing is really wrong.

    NEED is defined differently in every person’s mind both the “patient” and the attending medical staff. So in the present environment a dude who is a smoker can have a coughing fit at work. His boss tells him “You need to be tested” when in fact his condition has nothing to do with the virus. That is what is meant. Also I explained because YOU come across as needing to be tested. I suggest you head to the clinic there seems to be something wrong with you Alzheimers perhaps compounded by PArkinsons. You may have a couple of knobs loose.

    • Replies: @Realist
  74. @Realist

    What kind of Realist are you ? There is no way this is ever going to happen and you comment is absolute rubbish. Better come out of that cabin in the woods. It is wreaking havoc with your mind.

    • Replies: @Realist
  75. @NoNwoNow

    Realist is one of those people one encounters on UNZ that cause a reasonable and intelligent person to just shake their head. He just blurts out whatever comes to mind without really thinking about what he is saying. A clear case of a brain (if it exists) not connected to the hands. And you are right, he gets hung up in semantics and nuances without really looking at the overall picture and sees insinuations where none exist. With him emotion triumphs over logic. This is what happens when you drop out of school in JK

  76. Realist says:
    @calculator

    What kind of Realist are you ?

    The real kind.

    There is no way this is ever going to happen and you comment is absolute rubbish.

    If we get an non corrupt, intelligent leader, with integrity…it will. But I wrote should be.

  77. Realist says:
    @calculator

    You seem to be a hobo dunce who fires off comments without really thinking.

    Are you writing this to your diary?

    You should stop while you are behind.

  78. NoNwoNow says:

    China appears to be making a comeback after going through severe lockdowns.
    Better short term damage to the economy than permanent damage to the nation.
    Of course, some parts of the economy need to keep going to survive.
    By analogy, you need your stomach, heart and muscles working as well as your lungs!

    The critical problem is that our economy buys most things rather than producing them.
    Trump needs to call for a crash program to produce the medical supplies, drugs and equipment we are really going to need.

    It says as much here
    http://www.progressivepress.com/blog-entry/common-sense-vs-coronavirus

    We can’t beg from the rest of the planet, as the sole superpower, when the whole world needs the same things. National sovereignty means being able to meet your own needs.

    • Replies: @Meena
  79. Meena says:
    @NoNwoNow

    Corona virus epidemic has been used by the faltering companies to extract money from public .

    Now more from CNBC–

    “Negative yields are largely a function of demand, as prices and yields move in opposite direction for bonds. Investors pay a large premium above par on the bonds and can receive less than their initial investment at maturity. Deposit rates also can be negative.

    The negative rates, however, are not directly related to central bank policy. Fed officials have rejected the notion that the U.S. central bank might eventually take its policy rate below zero.”

    – Central bank is washing the dirty hand of any complicity but the fact of the matter is that the low interest is a slippery slope on which Fed has put its gravy train creating the negative rate inevitable.

    Bloomberg adds its 2 cents saying 2 trillion is not enough .

  80. @John Johnson

    Lincoln’s challenge was that the southern secessionists stole all the federal property in their states – post offices, court houses, customs houses, the forts and arsenals their agents in DC had systematically stocked with modern weapons, even the U.S. Mint at New Orleans, with its millions in bullion and new coin. Then they howled about being “invaded” when the armed forces of the legal, elected government were sent to repossess and secure the assets they pilfered from the American people. Thankfully, the southern Confederacy is long dead, but its propaganda machine is still switched full on.

    • Agree: Wielgus
  81. @Wielgus

    He suspended the constitution during a civil war. Few states operate business as normal under those conditions.

    Yes he suspended the constitution and imprisoned journalists. There is no exemption in the constitution that says you can do whatever you want if there is a civil war.

    He never as far as I know expressed public belief in racial equality either

    Here you go:

    I think the authors of that notable instrument [the Declaration of Independence] intended to include all men. – Lincoln

    Lincoln is hardly different from today’s White egalitarians where they are happy to sacrifice someone else’s White children for their moral cause while isolating themselves from Blacks.

    That is the problem I have with all egalitarian Whites. They justify their actions based on equality and then keep their families away from Blacks. Then if you spend any time around them they make contradictory statements about race as Lincoln did.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Wielgus
  82. Corvinus says:
    @John Johnson

    “Lincoln fans don’t talk about his dirty secrets like how he suspended the constitution…”

    In order to save the Union during a Civil War.

    “or how he privately didn’t believe in racial equality.”

    Which was other than surprising given the time period.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @John Johnson
  83. Why were so many writers on this site fanatic about pushing this panic? Was there some ulterior motive? Those who pushed it have a strange silence in the face of reasonable questions. Anyway:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/oxford-study-suggests-millions-people-221100162.html

  84. Rurik says:
    @Corvinus

    In order to save the Union during a Civil War.

    and of what use has that proved to be?

    This stinking, corrupt, shithole of a ‘Union’ isn’t worth a plug nickel, and the sooner it comes apart at the seams, the better.

    We need a Brexit for every Red State in this worthless’ union’ ASAP.

    Let the Blue States rot from within, close the borders, declare a Cornhole Virus emergency, and tell California anyone stupid enough to have stayed this long, is now quarantined. Idaho is closed, and now sovereign. Fuck you ((uncle Sam)) and California, Seattle, New York, and all the other stinking shitholes of liberalism and depraved rot.

    Watch this video, but in your mind, replace the word ‘republic’, with secession, or you can use the word sovereignty. (They mean the same thing ; )

    ‘Secession’, I like the sound of the word’

    Just imagine a country where you, Corvy, are not permitted anywhere near our homes, families, governments, or cultural institutions. Indeed, where you or any of your kind, would be shot on sight, if you tried to invade.

    I like the sound of that.

    A land of free people, ruled locally only to the extent of their overt consent. And the second any politician scumfuck deigned to tread on that covenant, they too would be shot, (or hanged, which is more official, and I like the sound of it).

    Looking at the state of the endemic rot of the Union today, it only underlies the folly of Lincoln’s misguided imprudence. Indeed, if Abraham could see what your lot has done to this Republic, he’d grab the gun out of Booth’s hand, and use it personally to blow his own brains out. Out of shame.

    Secession, it has a beautiful ring to it, yes?

    Now, more than ever!

  85. Corvinus says:
    @Rurik

    “This stinking, corrupt, shithole of a ‘Union’ isn’t worth a plug nickel, and the sooner it comes apart at the seams, the better.’

    You’re in a minority. Most Americans prefer to have the Union remain intact, and that really bothers you.

    “We need a Brexit for every Red State in this worthless’ union’ ASAP.”

    You’re into secession porn. Whatever floats your boat. You’re just upset that it’s not going to happen.

    “Just imagine a country where you, Corvy, are not permitted anywhere near our homes, families, governments, or cultural institutions. Indeed, where you or any of your kind, would be shot on sight, if you tried to invade.”

    Who is this “our”? Is not possible that I may be of your kind in the eyes of your brethren? Do they not decide who is and who is not invited to their homes? Is that not the beauty of freedom of association?

    “I like the sound of that.”

    LOL, you wouldn’t do anything of the sort as far as “shooting” people. All Internet tough guy talk.

    “A land of free people, ruled locally only to the extent of their overt consent.”

    We have that in our communities already!

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
  86. I tried to do the math to determine how little a human life must be worth in order to make it reasonable* to revoke the coronavirus closures and movement restrictions. Let me try to lay it out for you guys and you can see if you can find a flaw in the method (if not the values of the assumptions themselves):
    value_of_life * number_of_additional_deaths <= gdp_loss_from_closures

    Looking at the numbers from the social distancing scoreboard (~40% less social interaction), and using this COVID epidemic calculator: http://gabgoh.github.io/COVID/ – assuming a linear relationship between social interaction and coronavirus spread/fatality rate, the number of additional deaths is on the order of 3.5 million if you remove all restrictions and try to get the economy going at full speed again.

    The GDP loss due to closures I estimated based on the predictions of 10% contraction in Q2, and extending that through Q4, so approximately 8% annual GDP loss = ~1.5 trillion dollars.
    So, plug these into our equation above and we get:
    value_of_human_life * 3,500,000 <= $1,500,000,000,000
    value_of_human_life <= ~$428,000

    Now, the US Office of Management and Budget estimates a human life to be worth between $7,000,000 and $9,000,000. It seems we're about an order of magnitude off if we want this to be an economically reasonable idea.

    Also, there are some serious flaws in the assumptions made:
    – The 8% loss in GDP is not something that can be fully recovered, since the rest of the world is also in a shutdown mode.
    – The 3.5 million additional lives lost is likely an undercount, because when hospitals reach capacity the death rate would dramatically climb

    So if we go for some different bounds, like perhaps you might be able to save 0.75 trillion dollars by losing 7 million additional people, that would require the maximum value of human life to be ~100k. Even if you reversed all those assumptions, in both directions, like that you would be able to save more GDP (up to a maximum of 100% of the 2019 GDP), and that the number of additional lives lost would be half that, you're still an order of magnitude off of US government estimates of the value of a human life.

    Considering the US government already spends approximately $250k per person per lifetime on the military, that would seem to be a dramatic underestimate of how much a life is worth.

    Anyone have any thoughts?

    *Economically reasonable, not morally defensible
    Social distancing scoreboard:
    https://www.unacast.com/covid19/social-distancing-scoreboard
    The source of my COVID calculator numbers if you'd like to see it based on my values:
    http://gabgoh.github.io/COVID/?CFR=0.02&D_hospital_lag=5&D_incbation=5.2&D_infectious=2.9&D_recovery_mild=11.1&D_recovery_severe=28.6&I0=100&InterventionAmt=1&InterventionTime=100&P_SEVERE=0.2&R0=2.2&Time_to_death=32&logN=19.65
    GDP losses based on this estimate:
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-triggered-downturn-could-cost-5-million-u-s-jobs-11584783001

  87. Hibernian says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Article 4 Section 4 does not even mention expulsion. Only “living Constitution” interpretation of it would allow such a thing.

  88. Hibernian says:
    @John Johnson

    Lincoln was all over the map on race.

  89. @TimeTraveller

    The ants are NOT gonna’ get their due. The grasshoppers, those college students who borrowed to live large, anyone with no savings who can’t pay the rent… these are the ones getting their “due” from these Socialist bailouts coming. You’ve got it exactly backwards.

    This whole thing is one big infotainment panic-fest, and you are just another sucker for the TV.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  90. @Rurik

    Great comment! Thank you, Rurik.

    • Thanks: Rurik
  91. NoNwoNow says:

    Once again, to answer Pat Buchanan’s question, South Korea “showed that it is possible to contain the coronavirus without shutting down the economy… ”
    “Lesson 1: Intervene Fast, Before It’s a Crisis.
    “Just one week after the country’s first case was diagnosed in late January, government officials met with representatives from several medical companies. They urged the companies to begin immediately developing coronavirus test kits for mass production, promising emergency approval.
    “The country has conducted over 300,000 tests, for a per-capita rate more than 40 times that of the United States.”
    Testing is central because that leads to early detection, it minimizes further spread and it quickly treats those found with the virus,” Kang Kyung-wha, South Korea’s foreign minister, told the BBC, calling the tests “the key behind our very low fatality rate as well.” New York Times, 3/23/20 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/world/asia/coronavirus-south-korea-flatten-curve.html
    We missed that boat. It’s not clear we can contain the virus without lockdowns now, unless we really start to do lots and lots of testing! Then we will know who needs to be in quarantine and who doesn’t.
    The health care overload catastrophic scenario comes from bringing in patients too late, when they are in critical condition. If we had enough test kits to give everyone with mild symptoms a checkup, then it will be much easier to help them and avoid fatalities.
    We have done so little testing because we had no test kits. “What happened in the US is the CDC created and sent out a [defective] test to all 50 states and then said, ‘Wait, hold up, don’t use it.” (https://www.businessinsider.com/south-korea-coronavirus-testing-death-rate-2020-3)
    A great share of the blame rests squarely with the CDC.
    From http://www.progressivepress.com/blog-entry/common-sense-vs-coronavirus

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  92. @Corvinus

    There were at least three occasions when New England threatened secession before the South finally got tired of hearing it and decided to save them the trouble. The first time New England threatened to secede was over the Louisiana Purchase, because they said that it would upset the balance of power.

    The second time Yankees seriously contemplated secession was during the War of 1812, which they derisively referred to as “Mr. Madison’s War.” They opposed the conflict, which was waged to assert U. S. sovereignty on the seas, claiming that it interfered with their commerce with the English. It was New England’s sons who were being wrongfully impressed into the British Navy, but they refused to send troops to fight and allowed the White House to be burned. The Governor of Massachusetts, Caleb Strong, actually committed treason, as defined by the Constitution, when he sent a secret envoy to England in an effort to negotiate a separate peace. The Federalist’s gathering at the Hartford Convention aimed to bring their opposition to Washington, but the Treaty of Ghent coupled with Andrew Jackson’s victory in New Orleans, sounded the death knell for their party and they reinvented themselves as Whigs.

    The third time that the North shrieked that they were going to secede was over the U. S. – Mexican War, this time citing the spread of slavery into the newly acquired territories. Never mind that you can’t grow cotton in the desert. None other than your hero, Abraham Lincoln, a one term Representative from the State of Illinois, stated the following in regards to secession, “Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and a most sacred right. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of the such people that can, may revolutionize, putting down a minority intermingled with or near about them who oppose their movements.” The resounding defeat of Mexico and the fulfillment of Manifest Destiny was celebrated across the Country and the Whigs were forced to rebrand themselves as Republicans.

    During his inaugural address, Lincoln once again appeared to defend the right of secession : “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.” Yet, he contradicted himself at the end of the address by asserting, ” In your hands, my dissatisfied countrymen, and not mine, is the momentous issue of civil war… You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to preserve, protect and defend it.” In other words, what Lincoln was really saying is: “You are free to do as you see fit, unless I’m in charge. Then, you will do whatever I say.”

    Modern secession movements are alive and well in Vermont, the Pacific Northwest, the desert Southwest, and in other locales. Cascadia, the State of Jefferson, and the Nation of Aztlan are just a few examples.

    I’ve never shot anyone, but I’ve beat quite a few people into unconsciousness. I don’t just talk the talk, I walk the walk. So, don’t confuse me with a Cyberwarrior.

    No, we don’t have local government. We have underlings who do whatever they are told by those in the Governor’s Mansions, who in turn, receive their orders from Washington. Rather than our elected officials being there to do our bidding in our interests, they are in place to ensure that whatever Federal programs that have been devised are implemented. When Californians overwhelming rejected Gay Marriage by popular vote, the Federal Judges made sure that their votes were nullified and the agenda moved forward unimpeded.

    “The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers that died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self determination – ‘That government of the people, by the people, for the people,’ should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves…. The Confederates went into battle an absolutely free people, they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and vote of the rest of the Country… ” – H. L. Mencken

    • Thanks: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  93. map says:
    @Andy

    There is a third solution. You let people walk around in a full hazmat suit like the one Putin wore. Decontaminate before removing with alcohol.

    This will a,,ow the economy to to continue at least partially while the virus burns itself out.

  94. Wielgus says:
    @John Johnson

    The Lincoln quote you cite means he thought Blacks were men, and not Orcs, contrary to the views of some Unz commentators. It does not necessarily mean he thought them fully equal to Whites.
    In 1865 he announced his intention to give them the vote (he had not made a public statement expressing such an intention before). John Wilkes Booth was in the crowd in DC when he stated that and reportedly decided on those grounds to kill Lincoln, which he did a few weeks later.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  95. Wielgus says:
    @Rurik

    By and large foreign governments tended to sympathise with the South but found its slavery an embarrassment. Even Tsarist Russia had emancipated the serfs in 1861. One reason for their Southern sympathies was that disunited States would not have been a major power player in the future – for example the French were able to carry on their Mexican adventure while the USA was locked in civil war but found themselves forced to withdraw when the North won. It is unlikely a USA in two parts due to successful secession would have been the major power player of the 20th century that the USA became.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
    , @Rurik
  96. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    This whole thing is one big infotainment panic-fest

    I think that’s highly likely.

    Just out of curiosity, if there was an actual killer virus capable of killing millions, how would a libertarian society deal with such a crisis?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  97. dfordoom says: • Website
    @NoNwoNow

    Lesson 1: Intervene Fast, Before It’s a Crisis.

    Agreed.

    Lesson 2: western liberal democracies are entirely incapable of acting swiftly in an emergency. First they will dither and then, when it’s much too late, they will panic.

  98. @dfordoom

    Well, if you really need to know, people would likely stay home of their own will, being scared shitless. They’re not gonna be scared quite so shitless next time, unfortunately after this thing blows over. Some of them may even decide to turn off their iCrap for a while.

  99. @calculator

    Spot on, calculator! I, an old man now, have witnessed the gradual “pussification” of our society over the course of my lifetime.

  100. @Wielgus

    What a tired and fallacious argument. The position, long maintained by a haughty and arrogant North, that the South could not have been successful without them. The truth is exactly the opposite.

    As I noted previously, the North repeatedly threatened to Secede, but didn’t because they needed the money that they were stealing from the South through Hamilton’s and Clay’s “American Plan.” Whereby, import taxes disproportionately paid by the South were used to prop up industries in the North and to strengthen Northern infrastructure. This was one of the reasons the South lagged behind in manufacturing and railroad mileage. Without our wealth being redistributed to Northern corporations, the South would have progressed very rapidly.

    Franklin Pierce’s father was a General in the American Revolution, and although he resided in New Hampshire, which was economically solvent, he resented the limited wealth of his newly created State being diverted to pay for harbor and canal construction in Boston and New York. Franklin adopted his father’s views on this matter and he maintained them long after the rest of New Hampshire had abandoned them due to it beginning to serve the State’s interests in railroad construction. Pierce steadfastly stuck to his guns. He appointed Jefferson Davis as his Secretary of War and corresponded with him all through The War to Prevent Southern Independence.

    The North often produced lower quality items than what was available in Europe, so there was no market for their manufactured goods except in the South. They needed us, we didn’t need them, and they knew it. That is why they never made good on their threats to secede, and that is why they made war on us to prevent us from doing it ourselves.

    The Southern portion of California was a hotbed of Southern Secession and the Los Angeles Mounted Rifles accompanied Albert Sydney Johnston all the way across the Continent to Richmond, Virginia, where they were mustered into the Confederate Army. The Arizona Territorial Legislature passed an ordinance of Secession and was officially part of the Confederacy.

    These two coast to coast nations could have lived together harmoniously and eventually prospered equally. They would have both likely achieved their own separate successes in due time, but the Yankees could not wait for that to happen. So, they utilized foreign mercenaries recruited fresh off the boat to do their fighting for them. A full one fifth of the Union Army were recent immigrants.

    If Slavery was so repellent to the North and Europe, then why did the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade continue for 33 years after the War To Prevent Southern Independence had ended? Cuba and Brazil were the last territories in the Western Hemisphere to outlaw slavery, in 1888. Up until that time, their labor needs continued to be supplied by ships operating out of Northern ports. Primarily, New York. In 1861, while the Union Navy was blockading Southern ports and preventing food and medicine from reaching Southern people, Robert Shufeldt, U. S. Consul to Cuba, was lamenting, “No matter how humiliating may be the confession, the fact nevertheless is beyond question that nine tenths of the vessels engaged in the Slave Trade are American.” Are we to believe that European powers were oblivious to this? Especially, seeing that Cuba was a Spanish colonial province.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  101. @Corvinus

    In order to save the Union during a Civil War.

    During a war? The choice of war was his.

    Before the attack on Ft Sumpter there was a peace offer by confederate delegates to pay for Federal properties.

    Lincoln wanted nothing to do with them.

    He could have called for at least a temporary end to hostilities but instead decided to resupply Ft. Sumpter which he knew would escalate tensions even further. After that he called for 75k volunteers to help in his war against the South. He had zero interest in trying to find a peaceful resolution.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  102. Corvinus says:
    @Cowtown Rebel

    “There were at least three occasions when New England threatened secession before the South finally got tired of hearing it and decided to save them the trouble.”

    I am quite aware of those efforts. But in 1832, southern born and bred Andrew Jackson presented his response to Congress regarding the “Tariff of Abominations”. He argued that the justification for state nullification of federal laws was misguided, unconstitutional, and treasonous to the country. The doctrine of nullification was “incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which it was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed”. He further stated that the Constitution joined the states into a single nation, and “in becoming parts of a nation…they surrender many of their essential parts of sovereignty”. Lincoln reiterated those arguments in March 1861, declaring that secession was “the essence of anarchy” and it was his duty to “hold, occupy, and possess the property belonging to the government” by the consent of the people for the general welfare of our nation.

    Regarding the modern secession movements, I am of the mentality that it will not make substantial headway with the general public. There would be a number of sticking points–Who makes the determination of who is allowed to “stay and leave”? What is the process involved? What happens if people deemed “undesirables” refuse to go? How would internal and external trade be conducted? How would national defense be provided? If and when there is disagreement among the people about policies, is their forced removal of those individuals deemed “rabble rousers”? These are but a few of the questions that would have to be answered BEFORE any secessionist movement would be even remotely viable.

    “I’ve never shot anyone, but I’ve beat quite a few people into unconsciousness. I don’t just talk the talk, I walk the walk. So, don’t confuse me with a Cyberwarrior.”

    Individuals who make such claims on the Internet of such conduct are merely posturing, like a teenager girl taking a selfie “duck pose”. So, would you be willing to shoot anyone YOU deem an “invader”, including children?

    “No, we don’t have local government.”

    Of course we have local government. It is just that you do not prefer the decisions made by officials, hence your “argument” that they are at the constant beck and call of the federal government.

    “When Californians overwhelming rejected Gay Marriage by popular vote, the Federal Judges made sure that their votes were nullified and the agenda moved forward unimpeded.”

    That is called checks and balances.

    “The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves…. The Confederates went into battle an absolutely free people, they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and vote of the rest of the Country…”

    The reality is BOTH sides fought for what they believed was a righteous cause. Fortunately, in the end, the side with the moral high ground–the eradication of slavery–prevailed. Do you not believe that the “peculiar institution” was immoral and unjust? Recall also there were tens of thousands of southerners who opposed secession and/or slavery and viewed themselves as being oppressed by the plantation class, so Mencken’s claim the Confederates were an “absolutely free people” is other than accurate.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Cowtown Rebel
  103. @Wielgus

    The Lincoln quote you cite means he thought Blacks were men, and not Orcs, contrary to the views of some Unz commentators. It does not necessarily mean he thought them fully equal to Whites.

    No one has suggested that he was talking about them as Orcs. But it is intellectually dishonest to believe that the Declaration of Independence is racially inclusive. Egalitarians might want to believe that but the person who actually wrote it clearly wasn’t racially egalitarian and the people that signed it supported racial restrictions. But of course we aren’t supposed to talk about that politically incorrect fact. Both liberals and conservatives prefer an egalitarian if dishonest take on it.


    In 1865 he announced his intention to give them the vote

    Which was really to stick it to the South and not because he believed that a multi-racial society would have the best outcome. We know that from his own quotes about not believing in natural equality and that miscegenation will not benefit Whites. This then brings into question if he really wanted to save the country or punish and possibly destroy the south.

    From his actions we know that he had zero interest in diplomacy, locked up journalists that told the truth and led a horribly bloody war based on his racial morals that he couldn’t fully explain and were contradictory.

    He is hardly different than your typical Republican or Democrat that has all kinds of beliefs on race that they can’t fully explain and get mad when you point out how full of s— they are. They profess equality but then avoid Blacks in their personal lives as much as possible. They are so confident in multi-racial living that they want to live in White gated communities outside of DC.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  104. Corvinus says:
    @John Johnson

    “During a war? The choice of war was his.”

    No, the South made the decision.

    “Before the attack on Ft Sumpter there was a peace offer by confederate delegates to pay for Federal properties.”

    Which was rejected. Lincoln sought to send food and medicine to “hungry, sick men” at Fort Sumter. It was an act of humanity. The Confederacy CHOOSE to attack it. Northerners were outraged over the South’s decidedly lack of interest in resolving the matter peacefully.

    It is rather ironic that as the Confederate delegates met to secede, there were groups of southern anti-secessionists who insisted on being heard about their position, but there protestations fell upon deaf ears.

    https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/southern-unionism.html

    Most white Southerners, three-fourths of whom owned no slaves, made it clear in the winter 1860-61 elections for state convention delegates that they opposed immediate secession. Nevertheless, state conventions across the South, all of them dominated by slaveholders, ultimately ignored majority will and took their states out of the Union. One Texas politician conceded that ambitious colleagues had engineered secession without strong backing from “the mass of the people.” A staunch South Carolina secessionist admitted the same. “But,” he asked, “whoever waited for the common people when a great move was to be made—we must make the move and force them to follow.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  105. Unfortunately we are on a ship at sea in a storm with a caption who perceives his task as self-promotion.

  106. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    Too heavy on the Tom Parsons — and you’d been getting less obvious.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  107. I’ve come around to the Ramzpaul view, as he makes the best case of all the pundits I have listened to.

    Isolate places like NYC where there are big numbers……and let Arkansas go back to work.

    It’s likely that the virus has been here longer than people think, which means that herd immunity should be kicking in. Chances are that a good number of Americans have already been exposed and showed no symptoms at all. 80% show zero to mild symptoms.

    I’ve suggested there should be mass testing, but the tests appear to be somewhat inaccurate. I believe that Japan and Korea have utilized testing to isolate the infected, and with mass use of masks have got the numbers down.

    If Trump lifts the lockdown and people go back to work, surely the (((MSM))) will find ONE cute little girl in pigtails dying of the CV and blame it on the bad orange man.

    Generally speaking young people are not in great danger from this virus.

    My fear is that the lockdown will cause a depression, and with it massive craziness, substance abuse, suicide, rioting, looting, and civil strife. I predict a black chimpout a thousand times worse than Katrina.

    It’s not a matter of “letting old people die” and this argument is both stupid and intellectually dishonest. If the lockdown is lifted, old folks should stay home, visitors should wear masks, etc. ,
    and in fact most of the at risk elderly probably spend most of their time inside a safe space anyway.

    I’ve seen quite a few clips of CV patients/victims and some say it was just like a bad cold. And of course I have seen the clips of victims on ventilators. Obviously the virus impacts people in different degrees of severity, and/or there are different strains/mutations of the virus.

    At this point when I see math models my eyes just glaze over because every extrapolation is different than the last one I saw. TBH I’m simply wore out regarding prognostications. The other aspect is that NOBODY really knows how many people have been exposed to the virus, and without that information, nobody can make an accurate predictive model or death rate assessment.

    I do think that people have gone crazy. The other day I had to have a prescription filled, and I got in line at the pharmacy….and a chubby young woman chewed me out, said I was “Too close, back up, observe social distancing!” I was really shocked. I was not too close to the crazy lady. I might not have been the full six feet away, but I was a good four feet in back of her. Her reaction was uncalled for and obnoxious.
    Then when I left the pharmacy, there was a raggedy black man on the corner yelling, “SADDAM AND GOMORRAH! EVERYBODY GONNA DIE!”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  108. Corvinus says:
    @anonymous

    “Too heavy on the Tom Parsons”

    Which Tom Parsons?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Parsons

    “and you’d been getting less obvious”

    Indeed. There are a number of Covid-19 hoaxers here who need a dose of realty. Thanks for NOTICING!

    • Replies: @anonymous
  109. Corvinus says:
    @Robert Dolan

    “and let Arkansas go back to work.”

    Except if one state is left “open” the likelihood of their residents, along with visitors from other states, being subject to Covid-19.

    “It’s likely that the virus has been here longer than people think, which means that herd immunity should be kicking in. Chances are that a good number of Americans have already been exposed and showed no symptoms at all. 80% show zero to mild symptoms.”

    Are you a medical professional? How are you certain?

    “I’ve suggested there should be mass testing…”

    Great idea! Talk to the Trump Administration to make it happen. You have the connections, right?

    “I believe that Japan and Korea have utilized testing to isolate the infected…”

    Because they took it more seriously in the beginning compared to the U.S.

    “If Trump lifts the lockdown and people go back to work…”

    He is going against the general advice of health experts. I suppose we should simply #DieForTheDow

    “Generally speaking young people are not in great danger from this virus.”

    That is other than accurate.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

    “My fear is that the lockdown will cause a depression, and with it massive craziness, substance abuse, suicide, rioting, looting, and civil strife.”

    I thought white people in general have the high IQ and high time preference where they will refrain from such activity. Do you lack trust in your fellow European-American brethren?

    “I predict a black chimpout a thousand times worse than Katrina.”

    Maybe. But, remember, you do have right to defend yourself.

    “If the lockdown is lifted, old folks should stay home, visitors should wear masks, etc. , and in fact most of the at risk elderly probably spend most of their time inside a safe space anyway.”

    Except you are not taking into serious consideration that EVERYONE poses a risk to others. It is best to for ALL of us to take precautionary measures. Now, feel free to venture outside amongst your fellow citizens. Just be prepared there are consequences for one’s actions.

    “I’ve seen quite a few clips of CV patients/victims and some say it was just like a bad cold. And of course I have seen the clips of victims on ventilators. Obviously the virus impacts people in different degrees of severity, and/or there are different strains/mutations of the virus.”

    Again, are you a medical professional?

    “The other aspect is that NOBODY really knows how many people have been exposed to the virus, and without that information, nobody can make an accurate predictive model or death rate assessment.”

    Actually, the predictive models have been fairly accurate, and nations (see China, Korea, and Japan) have taken measures to flatten the curve.

    “I got in line at the pharmacy….and a chubby young woman chewed me out, said I was “Too close, back up, observe social distancing!” I was really shocked. I was not too close to the crazy lady. I might not have been the full six feet away, but I was a good four feet in back of her. Her reaction was uncalled for and obnoxious.”

    That situation is unfortunate, but it does not represent the norm.

    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  110. @Corvinus

    Your usual idiocy.

    If you have the time to cut and paste every sentence of my post, you have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands pal.

    You didn’t refute anything I said, you simply injected your low IQ takes.

    Fuck off.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  111. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    As you know from prior replies, none of those, but the Tom Parsons character in Orwell’s “1984” who was ever faithful to the Party line.

    You’re a B+ troll.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  112. Corvinus says:
    @Robert Dolan

    We all have much time on our hands. I have to parse our your comments. I can’t help that you remain ignorant on the matter.

  113. According to the CDC, over 23,000 people have died this year from the flu, as of March 14, 2020.

    Children are also dying – 149 have died so far, according to the CDC.

    And before you say “oh well, maybe there’s confusion as to which disease is causing the deaths…” – no, faggot. This is a normal year.

    In the 2017-18 season, over 60,000 people died from the flu. According to the CDC.

    [MORE]

    That means that this season is MILD, whether or not you include a paltry couple thousand deaths from Coronavirus.

    It might also be worth noting that given that Coronavirus targets the same demographic as the flu, it is very likely that the people dying of Coronavirus would have died from the flu anyway.

    The other thing people are doing is throwing around the word “exponential” – well, you paranoid faggots: we’ve been locked down for nearly two weeks now. And before that, the virus was spreading openly – with no testing, no masks, no nothing – for six weeks. The first confirmed case was on January 20. But again – there were never any tests and no one was wearing a mask.

    It was allowed to spread uninhibited until the lockdown started in mid-March.

    And we now have 1,000 confirmed deaths.

    People are not dying in secret, bro. The reality is that there is no happening, other than what the government is making happen with these insane measures which appear to be designed to destroy the country on purpose as some kind of measure against Donald Trump.

    These people are LYING TO YOU.

    Can you even imagine that the media would just lie? In order to manufacture a crisis and create a panic to hurt Donald Trump?

    Can you even believe they would do that?

    They told the truth about Donald Trump being an agent of Russia, so why would they lie about a virus?
    This is officially completely out of control.

    The entire Western world is undergoing a mass hysteria. This is the society-wide equivalent to drinking bleach – and the media is fueling it with all of this doomsday horseshit.

    Look at this:

    In 2019, according to the New York State Health Administration, 160,000 people died in New York State. That’s about 438 people per day.

    And 13 extra is “an apocalypse”?

    Only 200 people total have died in New York City from this virus. And they are claiming the morgues are overwhelmed!

    Again: this is a relatively LIGHT flu year. Meaning that these Coronavirus deaths, added to the flu deaths, are not coming anywhere near the 2017-18 flu season deaths. Was DHS and the media putting out raving lunacy about how the morgues were overflowing in 2017-18?

    The answer to that question is “no.”

    But I will tell you: doomsday is coming. It is coming as a result of the alleged “prevention measures” being taken by the Jew Occupation Government.

    We Now Know
    It was hard to work this out in real time. I get that.

    And I still don’t really have any stable theory about where the virus came from, or even what the Jews are trying to use it for, beyond it being an attack on Donald Trump. I think it is almost certainly a bioweapon that was released for the purpose of attacking China, but whether or not there is a long-term plan with the hysteria in the West is something I’m not going to claim to know. I have suspicions, which I am going to try to lay out tomorrow. But obviously, no one can know what is going on. All we can do is look at the data and do our best to put together a picture of what’s happening.

    What we all know is that this pandemic and mass death event simply is not happening. We know this for an absolute fact. Unless there was some drastic mutation of the virus (or if a second virus was released, and the media and the CDC claimed it was a mutation), then there isn’t going to be any kind of mass death event.

    We also know as an absolute matter of fact that the media is lying on purpose. Two weeks ago, a person could have held a legitimate fear over the virus potentially spreading across America and killing a lot of people. But they can’t legitimately fear that now, unless they are stupid or uninformed.

    But what I laid out above is known by the media. They know nearly 25,000 people have died from the flu. They know the flu has a higher mortality rate among younger people than Coronavirus. But they are still telling you to support this absolutely unhinged “social isolation” lockdown lunacy.

    Why was There Even a Lockdown in the First Place?
    Why did the media openly tell people not to wear masks?

    If everyone had been wearing a mask, we wouldn’t have even 20% of the cases we have now. But they told you not to wear a mask, then they offered their solution, which was to completely collapse the economy and lock you in your house.

    The virus does exist. It would suck to get it, I’m sure. And if you get it, you have roughly a 2% chance of dying.

    But that exact statement is a lot more true of the flu than it is of Coronavirus.

    So why don’t we lock down the entire country every flu season? Why don’t we release prisoners from jail every flu season?

    It is because this is a hoax.

    The media is summoning up imagery from Hollywood movies, manipulating your ability to think rationally and openly feeding you false information. And they are doing it on purpose.

    People are already killing themselves because of the social isolation, and that will continue to happen.

    Hundreds of millions of lives are going to be destroyed over this. I’m personally feeling it, both in my wallet and on my nerves, as I’m sure you are too.

    This is bigger than the Russia hoax. The people who did this shouldn’t be forgiven.

    Andrew Anglin The Daily Stormer

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  114. Corvinus says:
    @anonymous

    Actually, I am able to think for myself. Now, do you believe Covid-19 is a hoax? If yes, are you not being ever faithful to that party line?

  115. @Corvinus

    Regardless of what Jackson said, nullification, although officially repealed, worked because rather than call up troops to enforce the tariff increases, he lowered them back to the levels they had been at previously. He was only bluffing and his move was called. In response to a toast by Jackson, “Our Union, it must be preserved.” The preeminent statesmen of his age, John Calhoun, responded, “The Union, next to our liberty, most dear. May we always remember that it can only be preserved by distributing equally the benefits and burdens of the Union.”

    Lincoln was the epitome of a two faced politician, changing his views with the direction of the wind. As, I’ve already demonstrated, Lincoln repeatedly asserted the rights of the people to dismember or exit the Union. That is, until he was in charge of it. And, unlike Jackson, Lincoln never achieved much before being elected President without receiving any votes in the South.

    [MORE]

    Secession doesn’t have to take hold in the general public, the natural course of events will see to it. The colonists who rebelled against English authority were never in a majority, and in the beginning they were a distinct and feared minority. Eventually, they gained enough headway to have a largely popular cause. However, they still had to “put down a minority intermingled with or near about them who opposed their movements.” Besides, the internal schisms that cause a rift won’t ultimately emanate from the White people. The minorities will continue to assert their turf, transforming neighborhoods into no-go zones, and forcing divisions among the lower classes, until the whole fabric comes unraveled. The only thing holding this ugly, multicultural, crazy quilt together is the fact that enough White people are still in charge and insisting that everyone must get along. But, they don’t and they aren’t going to. The prison culture is emerging as a dominant presence, and prisons are definitely institutions where racism thrives. The breakdown of law and order is merely a prelude to the anarchy that will follow. Secession will be then be the most desirable option for almost everyone.

    Would I be willing to shoot anyone I deemed an invader? In the current climate, I would be firing off bullets in all directions. However, the law would intervene on their behalf. So, I will wait for them to shoot the law. I will sit back and watch that unfold just as I have been doing. As I said, things will take their natural course, and the targeting of so-called law enforcement by minorities is just part of the trip to dissolutionville.

    Look, Corny Guy, it doesn’t matter one bit if you believe that I’ve been in a lot of fights or not. But, I only deal in facts. I grew up fighting in schools were I was always a minority. I’ve lost a few, but I’ve won many more. I haven’t lost a one on one fight since I was 18. The only times where anyone has gotten the better of me since then is when I was facing multiple adversaries, which is a circumstance that I grew up encountering regularly. That’s not to say that there aren’t individuals out there who are capable of besting me, but they aren’t going to do it without meeting formidable resistance.

    No, again, politicians are not in the least bit accountable to their constituents. They make promises and then fail to make good on them. They pass ordinances that are unpopular and that go against everything they were elected to do. Whether it be city, county or state officials, they are always pandering right up to the time they get voted in, then you would think Dr. Jekyll just became Mr. Hyde; the transformation is so radical. The Orange Wonder is a great example of someone who promised many things before he was elected, but then turned on his base once he got into office.

    No, Federal Judges overriding the vote of the people is called Tyranny. Checks and balances applies to the branches of government. But, for the last few years, there hasn’t been any checks or balances leveled against the judiciary. It’s about time some of those petty potentates were hauled in for undermining the will of the people and for overstepping their authority.

    The American Colonization Society was comprised of some of the most notable men of their time. Daniel Webster, Winfield Scott, Francis Scott Key, James Madison, James Monroe and Thomas Jefferson were among the members. The goal of the organization was to emancipate the slaves and to find a way to send them to Africa. Henry Clay, Lincoln’s mentor and the man that he modeled his own positions on, gave the keynote address at the first meeting of the Society, in which he stated, “We must rid our country of a useless and pernicious, if not dangerous portion of the population.” Lincoln repeatedly assured his constituents in the North that he had no intention of allowing Negroes to vote or to intermarry with White people. When the emancipation proclamation was put into effect, the Illinois (Lincoln’s adopted home) State Legislature, denounced it, calling it a wicked attempt to incite a servile insurrection. Lincoln, like most politicians, never cared what the people who voted for him thought or wanted.

    Interestingly, while Lincoln was serving as an attorney in Illinois, he defended a Slave owner who had brought his slaves to the state. Illinois, along with several other mid-west states, had laws preventing slaves or free Negroes from residing there. Lincoln was not a man of principle, he was just an opportunist.

    The majority of those that opposed secession did so because they hoped that a peaceful resolution could be worked out. Among those who were against seceding was Jefferson Davis. He never sought the office of President of the Confederacy and he would have preferred a field commission. But, the people of the South called upon him to lead them and he accepted the obligation. When he received the telegram informing him that he had been chosen to be the provisional President of the Confederate States of America, he turned to his wife and said, “I have no confidence in my ability to meet its requirement. I think I could better perform the function of a general. Upon my weary hearts was showered smiles, plaudits and flowers, but beyond them I saw troubles innumerable. We are without machinery, without means, and threatened by a powerful opposition but I do not despond and will not shrink from the task before me.” Because of his moderate temperament, Massachusetts State Senator, Benjamin Butler had supported nominating Davis for the President of the United States, during the Democratic Convention of 1860.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  116. Corvinus says:

    “Regardless of what Jackson said, nullification, although officially repealed, worked…”

    Actually, nullification failed to work, because there was a compromise in place made by Congress to maintain the tariff, although as you noted, it gradually decreased. It was South Carolina who had bluffed, for when she realized no other southern state was willing to leave the Union, she backed down and agreed to the deal.

    “Lincoln repeatedly asserted the rights of the people to dismember or exit the Union. That is, until he was in charge of it.”

    [MORE]

    He drew the line in the sand when it came to slavery being extended to the territories. The South felt believed their “peculiar institution” would die on the vine because of his position. As a result, it chose to leave despite protests from their own citizens who opposed secession. Assuredly Lincoln, like any great leader, had his flaws and inconsistencies.

    “Secession doesn’t have to take hold in the general public, the natural course of events will see to it. The colonists who rebelled against English authority were never in a majority, and in the beginning they were a distinct and feared minority. Eventually, they gained enough headway to have a largely popular cause.”

    Initially, the colonists were in three camps–in favor of rebellion, cautious of rebellion, and opposed to rebellion. As that “middle group” endured the impact of British Imperial policies, they came around to the line of thinking that separating was the desired course of action. In the case of the South openly rebelling in 1861, there remained a large contingent there who were against the plantation class making unilateral decisions.

    “The minorities will continue to assert their turf, transforming neighborhoods into no-go zones, and forcing divisions among the lower classes, until the whole fabric comes unraveled. The only thing holding this ugly, multicultural, crazy quilt together is the fact that enough White people are still in charge and insisting that everyone must get along. But, they don’t and they aren’t going to. The prison culture is emerging as a dominant presence, and prisons are definitely institutions where racism thrives. The breakdown of law and order is merely a prelude to the anarchy that will follow. Secession will be then be the most desirable option for almost everyone.”

    You are making up a scenario in order to justify secession.

    “Would I be willing to shoot anyone I deemed an invader? In the current climate, I would be firing off bullets in all directions. However, the law would intervene on their behalf. So, I will wait for them to shoot the law.”

    Even children would you gun down? And I would hazard a guess that you are merely talking big behind a screen.

    “No, again, politicians are not in the least bit accountable to their constituents. They make promises and then fail to make good on them.”

    I see where you are coming from, but I also think it depends upon whether or not how a person views government and how it operates.

    “No, Federal Judges overriding the vote of the people is called Tyranny. Checks and balances applies to the branches of government.”

    Exactly, and the court system is one of our three branches. Federal judges employ Constitutional law and precedent to determine whether a law oversteps its bounds. Their decisions protect the liberties of those being oppressed, whether it be the Brown case or the Heller case. It’s not called tyranny, it’s called justice.

    “But, for the last few years, there hasn’t been any checks or balances leveled against the judiciary.”

    It’s called a constitutional amendment, and it is at the disposal of citizens.

    “The American Colonization Society was comprised of some of the most notable men of their time.”

    I am aware of its cause, and it drew immediate fire. Frederick Douglass referenced “Shame upon the guilty wretches that dare propose, and all that countenance such a proposition. We live here — have lived here — have a right to live here, and mean to live here”. William Lloyd Garrison commented “[I]t hinders the manumission of slaves by throwing their emancipation upon its own scheme, which in fifteen years has occasioned the manumission of less than four hundred slaves, while before its existence and operations during a less time thousands were set free.”

    “The tragedy was that African Americans began to view their ancestral home with disdain.”

    “The majority of those that opposed secession did so because they hoped that a peaceful resolution could be worked out.”

    Again, Lincoln assured the South that he would not interfere with its operations in the South. But Southerners did not trust him. Remember, leaders there sought to expand slavery, and there would be no compromise, which was becoming an untenable position for both northerners and southerners. This mentality was expressed by Mississippi Senator Albert Gallatin Brown (1858):

    I want Cuba, and I know that sooner or later we must have it. If the worm-eaten throne of Spain is willing to give it for a fair equivalent, well—if not, we must take it. I want Tamaulipas, Potosi, and one or two other Mexican States; and I want them all for the same reason—for the planting and spreading of slavery. And a footing in Central America will powerfully aid us in acquiring those other states. It will render them less valuable to the other powers of the earth, and thereby diminish competition with us. Yes, I want these countries for the spread of slavery. I would spread the blessings of slavery, like the religion of our Divine Master, to the uttermost ends of the earth, and rebellious and wicked as the Yankees have been, I would even extend it to them. I would not force it upon them, as I would not force religion upon them, but I would preach it to them, as I would preach the gospel. They are a stiff-necked and rebellious race, and I have little hope that they will receive the blessing, and I would therefore prepare for its spread to other more favored lands.

    Southern Unionists were in particularly riled up, believing that a number of prominent politicians there were planning all along of leaving the Union without taking into account citizens who opposed secession. As Alexander Jones, a North Carolinian, claimed, “the secession party, knowingly, purposely and premeditatedly, aided in the election of Mr. Lincoln..[S]ecessionist speakers and newspaper editors filled the public mind with the most frightful apprehensions…It was every where proclaimed that [Lincoln’s] election would inevitably inaugurate a war against the institutions of the South, until thousands and tens of thousands of well-meaning and patriotic men were led to believe that their welfare, safety, and honor all depended upon the destruction of [the] government.”

    In William C. Harris’s ”The Southern Unionist Critique of the Civil War” (1985), he takes the position that South Carolina sought to secede from the union for quite some time, but understood their effort required the support from other states. He explains that South Carolina manipulated other southern states into secession by making them believe slavery was going to be abolished by Lincoln. Harris uses quotes from southern unionists in order to support his argument. To me, it offers insight into how divided even the southern states were regarding the split from the union.

  117. @Corvinus

    No, the South made the decision.

    No the attack on Ft. Sumpter was by the state militia as the Confederate army did not yet exist.

    Lincoln was not forced into war.

    Which was rejected. Lincoln sought to send food and medicine to “hungry, sick men” at Fort Sumter. It was an act of humanity.

    No it was not an act of humanity. It was an act of aggression.

    The defending soldiers could have simply walked away. The militias had offered them safe harbor.

  118. @Robert Dolan

    These people are LYING TO YOU.

    Can you even imagine that the media would just lie? In order to manufacture a crisis and create a panic to hurt Donald Trump?

    So Cuomo is lying about not having enough respirators? Doctors and nurses are lying about equipment shortages?

    I suppose there was a time when a conspiracy theory angle might work but now it is just looking stupid.

    This is a crisis and that is independent of however it is reported in the media.

  119. @Corvinus

    I am aware of its cause, and it drew immediate fire. Frederick Douglass referenced “Shame upon the guilty wretches that dare propose, and all that countenance such a proposition. We live here — have lived here — have a right to live here, and mean to live here”.

    Frederick Douglass was a mulatto who was smart enough to know that he would better off in the US than Liberia.

    As much as African-Americans blame Whitey for their problems we still haven’t seen a mass exodus to Liberia.

    Namibia has plenty of room but no one wants to move there.

    Kind of amusing that both Blacks and liberals maintain the narrative that White people ruined Africa and yet there hasn’t been a movement for Blacks to move to Africa and build Wakanda. What liberals truly believe (perhaps at a subconscious level) is betrayed by their actions. They believe so strongly that White people create Black poverty that they want Whites to subsidize Blacks and never provide them with autonomy. Black leaders also support policies centered around an unspoken assumption which is that Whites are to blame but Blacks should not leave the confines of White liberal paternalism.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  120. Corvinus says:
    @Cowtown Rebel

    Please respond to Comment 118 if able.

  121. Corvinus says:
    @John Johnson

    “No the attack on Ft. Sumpter was by the state militia as the Confederate army did not yet exist.”

    South Carolina is part of the South, and the actions of the state military represented the sentiments of those southerners who desired secession.

    “Lincoln was not forced into war.”

    [MORE]

    Northerners and Southern Unionists called for Congress to take action, with Lincoln supporting that cause, as result of Southern aggression on a federal military installation.

    “The defending soldiers could have simply walked away. The militias had offered them safe harbor.”

    The defending soldiers made the decision to remain, and they could have been left alone.

    “As much as African-Americans blame Whitey for their problems we still haven’t seen a mass exodus to Liberia.”

    You seem to be missing the point. European slavers ripped Africans from their homeland. Several generations later, the offspring of those Africans grew up in a land that they called “home”. You do realize that there had been a free northern and southern black population in the 1600’s onward who demanded political and economic rights, and a number of them fought alongside the colonists against the British Empire for independence. These patriots assuredly were in no mood to be coerced to leave for what deemed to be a foreign land.

    “Kind of amusing that both Blacks and liberals maintain the narrative that White people ruined Africa.”

    European colonization and imperialism for 400 years assuredly played an integral role.

    “and yet there hasn’t been a movement for Blacks to move to Africa and build Wakanda.”

    Rather, they are building up America. Remember, white people should have picked their own damn cotton.

    “They believe so strongly that White people create Black poverty…”

    Actually, poverty is the result of several mitigating factors.

  122. The defending soldiers made the decision to remain, and they could have been left alone.

    Lincoln could have ordered them to abandon the fort and demanded compensation. He was the President after all. It was Lincoln that wanted war and not the South. Lincoln never even considered any of the peace offers.

    European slavers ripped Africans from their homeland.

    European slavers bought them in ports. It was other Africans that took them in raids. Some were the result of African tribes warring with each other. White guilt based history however glosses over this.

    European colonization and imperialism for 400 years assuredly played an integral role.

    So Whitey caused African poverty? I’m not at all convinced when African countries were well behind the rest of the world prior to colonization. The most advanced sub-Saharan country is South Africa and has the most White people. So Whitey caused their poverty but the Whitest country has the highest standard of living? Not making sense.

    Rather, they are building up America.

    Why do majority Black areas look like warzones? Is that the fault of Whitey?

    Remember, white people should have picked their own damn cotton.

    Completely agree and slavery needs to end in the Sudan as well.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  123. Wielgus says:
    @Cowtown Rebel

    I suspect a victorious South would have been unwilling or unable to do anything about French intrigues in Mexico. After all it tried hard to get French diplomatic recognition in the Civil War. Had it received it this might have been at a price of accepting Mexico as de facto a French colony. Frankly a USA broken up like biscuit crumbs would have been far more vulnerable to European states. Canada could have become quite a bit larger at British behest by absorbing places like Maine or New Hampshire, for example. Perhaps a victorious Solid South would have been in reality a victory for European neo-colonialism?
    Slavery was on the way out even if it staggered on a few decades longer, mainly because of Spain in Cuba, but Spain was no longer a major player on the international scene. It was a public relations problem for the South and offered a ready-made excuse to keep a distance from the South’s “peculiar institution”. No doubt some hypocrisy was involved.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  124. Wielgus says:
    @John Johnson

    His primary interest was preventing the break-up of the USA. He was not as aggressive or fast-moving against slavery as some in the North would have liked. I doubt whether his “racial morals” had much to do with it.

  125. Rurik says:
    @Wielgus

    the North won. It is unlikely a USA in two parts due to successful secession would have been the major power player of the 20th century that the USA became.

    You mean we wouldn’t have been the ‘exceptional people’?!

    Who marched into Germany when they were on the verge of peace, like drooling goons in service to Satan and the Federal Reserve Bank, to ultimately go stomping in again, to put a dagger in the heart of Europa for all time? And hand over half of Europe to commie enslavement?

    We truly have been ‘exceptional people’, haven’t we?

    As Western Europe dies of our Hollywood imposed depraved Globohomo.

    What a shame it would have been had we stayed out of WWI and minded out own business.

    Can you imagine what England and France and Sweden would be like today?

    And the US, for that matter, if we’d have not become the ‘exceptional people’ to burn Germany down to ashes, and police the world for Zion, and impose our ideas of “democracy” on a reeling planet and brutalized people by our relentless demands that they become “democracies’, like Iraq and Libya and Egypt and Ukraine, and so many other places like that need our ZUS-imposed “democracy”.

    Nothing could have been better for the people of the US, and the world, than if the South could have seceded, and ended slavery on their own time table, and repatriated the Africans back to Africa, and allowed only immigrants from like-minded nations.

    Imagine what the US would look like, and be like today, if that had happened.

    As an exercise, where are the happiest people on the planet today?

    Detroit, or Helsinki?

  126. @Corvinus

    Cornivus,

    I am more than capable of addressing each and everyone of these points. However, I’m done with it. I simply have better things to do than argue with you. I can spend my time finishing work that you wouldn’t believe I’m doing, because you have never met me. If you ever do, I wouldn’t let on who I am, If I were you. Because I have a few things that I obviously need to explain to you in person, in a way that will register fully with you, in the only manner that you will ever comprehend.

    But, I will answer one question. No, I would not shoot children. I would expect that kind of conduct from Bolsheviks like you. And, I will offer you a pair of quotes: “There is a class of people in the South, men, women and children who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace.” – General William Tecumseh Sherman. “We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children.” -General William Tecumseh Sherman.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  127. Corvinus says:
    @John Johnson

    “Lincoln could have ordered them to abandon the fort and demanded compensation. He was the President after all. It was Lincoln that wanted war and not the South. Lincoln never even considered any of the peace offers.”

    That simply is other than accurate. The peace offer was for Fort Sumter to be left unmolested. Lincoln adopted the least provocative course available. South Carolina took umbrage.

    “European slavers bought them in ports. It was other Africans that took them in raids.”

    Indeed, African tribes and northern merchants are also culpable. But you do realize the differences between European slavery and African slavery, right?

    http://www.discoveringbristol.org.uk/slavery/people-involved/enslaved-people/enslaved-africans/africa-slavery/

    And, again, the South should have picked their own damn cotton.

    “I’m not at all convinced when African countries were well behind the rest of the world prior to colonization.”

    In what regards were they “behind”?

    “So Whitey caused African poverty?”

    [MORE]

    More than 50 new nations were born in Africa during the great liberation post-World War 2. Throughout the continent, Africans had high hopes for the future. People looked forward to rapid political and economic development. After decades of colonial rule, Africans were again in control of their destinies. But as with any new country, problems arise. A pattern developed**:

    1) widespread economic disappointment that discredited initial democracies;
    2) the formation of political parties based on ethnic or religious loyalty;
    3) rival ethnic groups jockeying for position and power;
    4) political instability heightened by ethnic strife and civil war;
    5) the emergence of strict one-party rule or military dictatorship;
    6) a lack of an educated electorate and a middle class to counter authoritarian rule;
    7) trade deficits, poverty, and famine due to continued economic dependence on the West, with loans to modernize squandered by corrupt officials.

    Scholars trace Africa’s recent problems to the colonial experience. Western imperialism had a complex and contradictory impact on Africa. Colonial rulers built roads, railroads, harbors, and cities. The new forms of transportation were meant to make the colonies profitable by linking cash crop plantations and mining operations to ports.

    For the majority of Africans, who were subsistence farmers, there was scant benefit from these facilities. To pay for expensive development projects, African nations exported minerals and agricultural goods to the industrial world; profits used to buy Western clothing, electronics, and automobiles.

    During the colonial period, Europeans undermined Africa’s traditional political systems. Even when they left African rulers in place, they dictated laws and told Africans how to govern. White officials shared the racial views of their day. They saw Africans as children who needed guidance, overlooking the fact that Africans had ruled themselves for centuries. Europeans denied educated Africans top jobs in colonial governments. Suddenly, at independence, colonial powers expected African leaders to transform authoritarian colonies into democratic nations. African continental and regional stability today remains an ongoing process.

  128. Corvinus says:
    @Wielgus

    “Slavery was on the way out even if it staggered on a few decades longer…”

    On the contrary. Slavery remained vital to the Southern economy. Why? “Cheap” labor.

    https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-ushistory1os2xmaster/chapter/the-economics-of-cotton

    About 75 percent of the cotton produced in the United States was eventually exported abroad. Exporting at such high volumes made the United States the undisputed world leader in cotton production. Between the years 1820 and 1860, approximately 80 percent of the global cotton supply was produced in the United States. Nearly all the exported cotton was shipped to Great Britain, fueling its burgeoning textile industry and making the powerful British Empire increasingly dependent on American cotton and southern slavery.

  129. Corvinus says:
    @Cowtown Rebel

    “I am more than capable of addressing each and everyone of these points. However, I’m done with it.”

    The information about Southern Unionists really hits too close to home, huh.

    “Because I have a few things that I obviously need to explain to you in person, in a way that will register fully with you, in the only manner that you will ever comprehend.”

    Pray tell, what would that be? Don’t be obtuse. Lay it out crystal clear…

    “But, I will answer one question. No, I would not shoot children.”

    But are they not the enemy if they believe in the ideologies you oppose?

    “I would expect that kind of conduct from Bolsheviks like you.”

    Except I am not a Bolshevik. I know, it’s easy to put those labels on your opposition. In that manner, you do not have to critically think. And, yes, those two quotes by Sherman are brutal. I surmise you share in his sentiments. Thankfully, you just don’t have it in you to carry it out.

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