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Is Democracy Dying or America Disintegrating?
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“What do we mean by the Revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution; it was only an effect and consequence of it. The revolution was in the minds of the people.”

What did John Adams mean when he wrote this to Thomas Jefferson in 1815, after both had served as president?

Adams was saying that America, the country that took up arms and fought for its independence from the British, was already a nation — before 1775.

America preexisted the Constitution, Adams is saying. America had been conceived and born before he and Jefferson began to write its Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia in 1776. America had come into being even before Lexington and Concord in 1775.

A corollary of what Adams wrote is that America, and the republic created by the Constitution, are not the same thing.

While America is a country, a republic is the form of government created for that country in Philadelphia in 1787.

“A republic if you can keep it,” said Ben Franklin to the lady who had asked what kind of government they had created for the already existing nation, when he emerged from that constitutional convention.

What, then, are our elites bewailing when they say that populists, rightists and Trumpists have put “our democracy” at risk?

Answer: It is not America the country or America the nation they are referring to, but our political system as it has evolved.

And what is the nature of the threat they see?

A precondition of democracy is that the results of elections be recognized and respected, and if repeatedly challenged, this is a mortal threat. And this is the present peril.

Yet, there are other preconditions, not only for democracies but for countries, that were enumerated in The Federalist Papers:

“Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people — a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs … ”

“This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties.”

John Jay was describing the preconditions of a nation, a country, a people. Do these preconditions still exist in America?

“One united people”? “A band of brethren”? A common ancestry, common religion, common language, common customs and manners?

That may describe the America of 1789. Does it describe the America of 2022? Or does Jay’s phrase, “a number of unsocial, jealous and alien sovereignties,” better describe the America of today?

Hillary Clinton once wrote off half of Trump’s supporters, nearly one-fourth of the nation, as “a basket of deplorables … racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic … bigots,” who are “irredeemable.”

Assume that our elites, who often echo what Hillary Clinton said of the populist Trumpist right, agree with her.

Why would virtuous liberals wish to continue in political association with people like this? Why would they not declare that, if an election again delivers rule to such people, we want no part of the system or polity that produced so intolerable an outcome?

Why would the capture of all three branches of government by people such as Hillary Clinton describes not be cause for dissolving the Union?

How could democracy be a superior form of government, if it could deliver the republic to people such as these, and perhaps twice?

If the progressives’ enemies are “Nazis” and “fascists,” why would progressives not rise in resistance and reject their rule, rather than cooperate with them in the governance of the country?

Why would good people not battle to overturn an election that produced a majority for such “deplorables”?

Do the commands of democracy take precedence over the demands of decency? Rather than govern in concert with people like this, why not get as far removed from them as possible?

The point here: Not only may the preconditions of democracy be disappearing, but the preconditions of nationhood may be disintegrating.

Again, the American right is today routinely compared to Nazis, fascists and Klansmen. Why would good liberal Democrats accept an electoral victory and future rule by Nazis and fascists rather than seek to overturn it, by whatever means necessary?

And how do you hold up American democracy as a model to mankind if, after two centuries, it has produced scores of millions of citizens like those described by Hillary Clinton?

And, again, if the preconditions of democracy are vanishing, and the preconditions of nationhood are disappearing, is not secession of some kind inevitable and even desirable?

Ultimately, the logic of our situation must lead us to consider something like this. Western Maryland’s attempt to secede and join West Virginia, and Eastern Oregon’s attempt to secede and join Idaho, may be harbingers of what is to come.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of “Nixon’s White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever.”

 
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  1. Personally, I hope for a mushroom cloud over Washington D.C. every day. And it’ll make a great YouTube video! Washington D.C. Vaporized!

    • Replies: @JR Foley
  2. Anon[147] • Disclaimer says:

    Democracy started dieing on 9/11/2001 in the US. Nov 2020 was the final death rattle of democracy.

    • Agree: SeekerofthePresence
    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Derer
    , @David from Alaska
  3. Hitmarck says:

    Calling the American right, people that lack all Schneid required to be a Nazi in the first place, is simply an underhanded insult.
    Those people gave blacks Sprechgesang, Dunking and Currywurst/BBQ and one look at pornhub reveals even the good old Leck mich am Arsch, aka as a rimjob.

    Far to obvious, except for the American right.

  4. “what is democracy ?” is a question which is often the basis of some terrific arguments.
    I don’t have the answer either. But — I believe that an important strand of “democracy” is that the government is responsive to the will of the governed.
    Given that — US democracy IS dead.
    The US government is responsive only to the will of its elites & their deep-state tools.
    (that Princeton study from a few years back
    pretty much confirms it)

    • Agree: follyofwar
  5. barr says:

    If I’m wrong, please point it out,” Lahren said, according to a sound clip of her remarks shared by The Post. “But all these major headline incidents that we’ve had in this country involving law enforcement in the last, at least, five years could have all been prevented if people would just comply with police, would follow orders, and not resist arrest.” https://www.yahoo.com/news/fox-news-tomi-lahren-told-050947590.html

    Tomi Lahren of Fox.

    Fox isthe one that calls Russia a police state,China a police state, Iran a police state and sometimes blames the citizen for following the orders . Fox still supports the jihadi of Syria for not obeying the orders of Assad .

    When the values you market even for mean for ulterior motive comes right back to you to hit your face beacuse of self-serving contradictions ,the game is up .

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  6. Thanks Pat. Separation is the only way forward for the Deplorables. The Republicans can’t save us. Orange Man can’t save us. Nothing good can come from the District Of Corruption.

    We need to create the United Counties of America. The U.C.A.. Let them have the shithole cities. If your local sherrif is not a separatist replace him or relocate to another county. Come home to Red America.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  7. bob sykes says:

    The word “nation” means common ancestry, culture, history, and religion. America was a nation in 1789, but the subsequent waves of immigration, beginning with the Germans and Irish, destroyed that nation. Since then we have been an empire of nations. Now we control an actual external empire as well.

    • Agree: Max Maxwell
    • Replies: @Gugwee
    , @Kevin the WASP
    , @Derer
  8. Anon[568] • Disclaimer says:

    When these guys talked about “one religion”, they SPECIFICALLY meant Protestantism. Catholics need not apply.

    John Kennedy was NOT the first IRISH president. He was the first CATHOLIC president. So it took ONLY 200 years for this wondrously “free” nation to allow a Catholic in the White House. So they shot him.

    • Agree: Derer
    • Replies: @Prester John
  9. @barr

    Tomi Lahren is just eye candy, as are most of the “conservative” women who populate Fox News. Tucker Carlson is their only lonely populist voice, crying out for peaceful relations with Russia, with no one in power listening. Rather than shaking their fists at “non-existent” Russian “aggression,” the stupid Republicans need to Actually Do Something to stop the criminal Biden Regime from destroying what’s left of the country, instead of demanding the inviolability Ukraine’s constantly changing artificial borders.

    • Agree: Max Maxwell
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  10. It seems Democrats may not want to accept the results of the upcoming mid term elections; Kamala Harris is already saying the election may not be legitimate; notice how liberal media paraphrases Donald Trump’s claims that the presidential election was stolen as ”false;” they never call Stacey Abrams’ claim that Georgia Governor race was rigged as false; in fact liberal media generally agrees that Abrams lost because of ”voter suppression;” it seems a constant in human history that empires do not last; America was doomed with the 1965 immigration law; ”a number of unsocial jealous alien sovereignties” is exactly what we have today.

    • Replies: @KenH
  11. Gugwee says:
    @bob sykes

    I am descended from Irish immigrants, but I don’t think the Irish were all that great for America. Every St. Patrick’s Day, we get the usual articles and documentaries praising the Irish-Americans for their contributions to this country. From what I can see, the Irish immigrants mostly contributed big government and corrupt Democrat machine politics.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  12. @bob sykes

    Really ? I’m a mix of English, Irish and German and if you saw me on the street you would not be able to tell the difference between myself and someone from Cornwall England or Devonshire England or at least Scotland if not Wales/Cornwall/Devonshire.

    Can you say that about someone who is a mixed with Slavic, Jewish, Italian, Greek etc.. ? The problem was with immigration not from NorthWestern Europe as Calvin Coolidge was well aware when he passed his immigration act.

    • Replies: @anon
  13. Standard civnat fallacy … pledging allegiance to the rag doth not a nation make.
    What Adams and Jefferson saw was the promise of a nation, complete with masonic foundational sacrifice (the feather Injun).
    When it was gambled away I dare not endeavour to point my finger,
    but that it was is I daresay self-evident.
    The Balkan is beckoning (am I very evil for finding that poetic?).

  14. rgl says:

    “Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people — a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs … ”

    The land was ‘given’ to the European colonists??

    This is the biggest load of BS I have read in a long time. Who knew CNN existed back then??

  15. anon[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kevin the WASP

    Why German and Irish be allowed and not Slavic or Greek? Just because you cant be separated from someone from Cornwal; doesn’t mean Cornwall will keep on sending its extra to USA .

    • Replies: @Kevin The WASP
  16. Phibbs says:

    Allowing Jews into this country in force in the early 1900’s was like a log cabin owner inviting termites to stay inside. Jews are the main supporters of all these terrible and divisive movements such as: BLM, identity politics, Critical Race Theory, censorship, subjugation to Israel, culture of victimhood, wokeness, etc. The Jews are capable of such destruction because of their overwhelming wealth and subsequent political influence. Jews own the media as well and have turned it into a Fake News factory. Jews are born troublemakers; they are dividing and destroying America. We patriots need to force out the parasitic, cunning, scheming, hateful, anti-Caucasian, anti-Christian, sneaky, manipulative, treacherous, deceptive, clannish Jews ASAP. After that, all blacks should be forced to live in five or six designated states. It won’t take long for Africans to turn their new country into just that — a hell-hole like all sub-Saharan nations.

  17. SafeNow says:

    The assumption seems to be that tens of millions of people in Dem hell-holes would stay put – – golly, I sure like my hell-hole, no way I want to move to RedTopia and put my kids into a good school system, have safe streets, etc. No way. So, would new Redtopias have borders, with fences, like Hungary? How would people relocating be vetted? If they don’t qualify, would you shoot them?

    By the way, this was all over the day JFK was shot. What followed was Vietnam, LBJ, immigration act, great society.

    • Replies: @Kevin The WASP
  18. Perhaps the time has come for a breakup of America. A group of smaller countries might be better.

  19. @anon

    Simply because when you mix English, Irish and German together you get a smelting similar to the mix of Celt and Saxon in middle England and when you mix Greek together with English you get something akin to French roughly speaking ? Slavic ? Please, since when can a WASP be part Slavic let a lone Greek?

    It is probably too late now but there was a chance for the Irish and Germans to mix with the English then convert to Protestantism and save the nation of non-WASP immigrants.

    I Just talked to some Englishmen from Manchester on a Discord server and they said “I would not stick out in the UK” until I “Opened my mouth” which means I look like a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant and Slavics and Greeks simply never will no matter what ethnic groups you mix into them.

    “Only Anglo-Saxon countries can do democracy. The natural state of human society is despotism. If you tally up all the human lives that have ever been lived on this planet under organized systems of government, no more than five per cent were lived under consensual systems. Even to get up to five per cent, you have to include places like ancient Athens and Tudor England, which wouldn’t pass muster as “democratic” by modern standards. In the last couple of centuries, practically all consensual systems have been Anglo-Saxon. Other cultures can fake it for a few decades, as France, Germany, and Japan are currently doing, but their hearts aren’t really in it and they will swoon gratefully into the arms of a fascist dictator when one comes along –John Debyshire”

    • Replies: @Francis Miville
  20. @SafeNow

    I live in New York and I’ve been to some red states. They both suck in different ways. You act like America is the only option for WASPs. As a mix of English, German and Irish (and perhaps some Scandinavian) I look extremely NorthWestern European and can pass a British person in the UK and perhaps also the Benelux. I guess there is also British Columbia Canada, too. right ? America seems shot to me. I move to Britain ? Worst case scenario I have to learn a British accent and maybe some culture shock instead of dealing with insanity that is now America but don’t get me wrong the UK, the Benelux and British Columbia Canada are no paradises, either.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
  21. KenH says:
    @Max Maxwell

    they never call Stacey Abrams’ claim that Georgia Governor race was rigged as false; in fact liberal media generally agrees that Abrams lost because of ”voter suppression;”

    The Jew led left always says there is no fraud then when presented with evidence of fraud they say “well, there is/was fraud but not enough to change the outcome of the election”.

    There is no voter suppression but if there ever was our response should be that there’s wasn’t enough voter suppression to change the outcome of the election.

    • Agree: Max Maxwell
  22. SafeNow says:
    @Kevin The WASP

    Yes, agreed, “America seems shot.” And it could get extremely bad, fast. You lay-out some rational alternatives. But I am not informed about the requirements of different countries in terms of what is required to become a citizen or permanent resident. Norway would be nice. It finished first in the “Democracy Index” of The Economist. (US was 27th). Everyone there speaks excellent English as a second language. I would converse with them in English and they would know I am an ex-pat, but they are polite people, and would give me a pass. As you point out, to look the part would help, and my roots are NW Europe. Thanks.

  23. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:

    The problem is feckless Republican “leaders.” They let shite happen. They’re like WWII generals…if the latter had been war correspondents.

    A pussified Patton-wannabe like Lin-Lin Graham dutifully sends sundry dispatches about the Bidenmacht’s endless advances, rule-breakings, and conquests. He will mewl-cluck-and-harrumph about all the terrible, damaging, nefarious doings of Democrats.

    Then he will do absolutely nothing about them.

    Again: the Left acts, the Right talks. Democrats win, Republicans whine.

    Trumpers are counting on the November election. What makes them think it won’t be rigged?

    And what makes them think that if Republicans DO take back the Presidency, Senate, and House in 2024 that things will be different that the last do-nothing time the Right owned all 3 branches?

    • Agree: lavoisier
  24. Was America ever a nation in the true sense of what we consider a nation -shared past, language, culture, values- or was it always a contrived system for opportunity sake?

    In other words was America always doomed to go down the same path as all empires before because the players at the start were the the same type that have created empires through history?

    Look at who funded the American war of independence to see why you went down a particular path.

    Democracy was always a distraction to cobble together a sense of consensus, society …it was never a place of any meaningful decision making for the populace, it was a sidelining mechanism so the “Adults” could go about “opportunity” unmolested.

    • Replies: @Carroll price
  25. Here is a link to an outsider who probably hits on why the West is dying better than anyone.

    https://english.pravda.ru/opinion/136884-west_finished/

    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
  26. It’s not democracy if the candidates rely on massive campaign funding.

    It’s not democracy if they address us from the TV screen rather than from the town hall podium or the physical auditorium we attended.

  27. Smith says:

    Democracy in the West is such a goddamn joke.

    And they try to force it to everywhere in the world.

    • Agree: JR Foley
  28. “Is Democracy Dying or America Disintegrating?”

    ¿Por qué no los dos?

  29. Dr. Doom says:

    “Democracy” as it is now called is three Jews and a token house negro blaming Whites.
    For everything. Even the weather. These fake Jews cannot run a popsicle stand.
    They are too stupid and greedy to invest in the future.

    The Synagogue of Satan is a ponzi scheme based on theft through fake IOUs.
    Worthless scrip backed by nothing but Uncle Sham and the goobermint.
    Monopoly money with zero value that constantly inflates prices.

    The Zion Pigs are going to be Kosher bacon this time.
    There are no more innocent victims to buy their fake stories of poissacushun.
    They are trapped on a global stage and falling back to a broken record.

    [MORE]

    I’m sure everyone was amused by the UN pushing annuder hollow cost meme.
    Please. World War II may as well be ancient history nowadays.
    The Global Hegemony that the UN is trying to save is outdated and dead.

    There is no more Soviet Empire, British Empire or Yankee Imperialism anymore.
    The UN is an outdated shabby and useless society of grifters now.
    The Post-WWII hegemony is Gone With The Wind.

    Russia and China are bailing on the Old Order and its crazy homoerotic fantasies.
    Uncle Sham is broke both fiscally and morally. The British Empire faded away.
    India is remaining neutral while the EU and Uncle Sham try to keep the UN relevant.

    They really cannot bail out. This Titanic Catastrophe will claim them all.
    The Billionaires have islands with underground bunkers.
    Israel lost their ability to rebuild Babylon with the retreat from Afghanistan.

    A New World Order is rising and its not the muck from Schwab and The Bush League.
    There is no globalism or egalitarianism in this New World Order.
    The Strong Horse always wins, and money is not the same as power.

    Especially when that money is fake IOU monopoly fiat notes.
    But you know, Gold won’t bribe the reaper when he sows these Zion Pigs.
    They will reap the whirlwind as they continue to bet on black.

    The Iron Law of Economics is this. Once you go black, you go broke.
    Savages only know the five finger discount of hunter gathering.
    They cannot grasp an economy of scale or even do the Math.

    Its all FAKE and BIG LIES all the way down nowadays.
    Everyone is now jaded and do not believe the broken record of the corporate media.
    Its three Jews and a token house negro endlessly blaming Whites for everything.

    “Democracy”. It killed Ancient Greece and The Roman Empire.
    None of these morons learned from history.
    Any student of history should know that “democracy” always becomes a dictatorship.

    The Roman Empire was a Grand and Great Achievement for White Men.
    It can be again now that the ethnic infighting is ending.
    Nothing like a common enemy and existential threat to end old squabbles.

    The New World Order can be The New Holy Roman Empire.
    You can learn a lot more from the past than you can from liars in media.
    What do three Jews and a token house negro know from Ancient History?

    They are betting on black and trying to rebuild Babylon.
    Two wrongs do not get you equal rights or something.
    Babylon will fall again. Its not an Empire, Republic or a sane society…

    • Thanks: JR Foley
  30. Is democracy dying? ROTFL. When was it alive?

    Democracy is rich a**holes vetting puppets for morons to vote for.

    • Replies: @Ann Nonny Mouse
  31. @Priss Factor

    It was alive when representatives were elected by lot from the citizens on the electoral rolls, as in Athens originally. The lower house then and there was everyone. That’s democracy. The upper house the lottery winners. That’s ordinary citizens. Democracy.

    • Replies: @Jokem
  32. 842 words, zero mention of the underminers.

    Who Nose why Pat creates these tortured screeds?

  33. JR Foley says:
    @Henry the 8th and 1/2

    That comes after that mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv and the Finkel Five playing their Jews harps.

  34. Jokem says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    Actually, we are supposed to be a Republic.
    I favor going back to the time when the state legislatures chose the electors in public ballot.
    That would put a big crimp in election fraud.

  35. @Cookie Boy

    Very good article. The source of the West’s collapse is the deliberate destruction of national identity.

    Social scientist Robert Putnam, author of

    Bowling Alone

    , discovered that an increase in diversity makes people less charitable and trusting, even among members of their own race.

    He was so disturbed by these conclusions he sat on his research findings for years.

    Here is a link to an outsider who probably hits on why the West is dying better than anyone.

    https://english.pravda.ru/opinion/136884-west_finished/

  36. @Cookie Boy

    American did not become a “nation” until after 1865. Prior to that, it was a Republic consisting of sovereign States (nations) united under a central government created by the States.

  37. Derer says:
    @Anon

    A bit earlier…assassination of elected president is a “nono” in democracy. And subsequent protection of real perpetrators is a obvious conformation of an (elite) lawlessness.

  38. Derer says:
    @bob sykes

    What destroyed the nation is criminal Englishman exploiting forced immigration of African slaves.

  39. @Anon

    @Derer has it right.
    Much of the earlier 20th century was spent in the setup for the destruction of the Bill of Rights and Constitution. John F. Kennedy’s assassination was but a minor detour and proved to the trans-generational plotters that they could pull off anything they wanted, including the contingency of murdering a U.S. President in broad daylight.
    You see, they (They/Owners) know their audience (us) much better than we know ourselves. It was They who trained (educated) the vast majority of us, planted the seeds of belief and disbelief, fertilized us religiously with Their propaganda, and have been harvesting away ever since.

  40. Jews use the most sacred race against whites but sometimes boomerangs on them.

  41. The problem is DIVERSITY. Mixing races and languages and cultures always leads to trouble.We have 40 million illegal aliens in america and 40 million blacks. These people have IQs of around 65 and can never do anything but crime and welfare.

    Asians are intelligent and legal hispanics are ok. It would be better if they weren’t here but we can live with them. But the illegals and blacks have to go.

    • Agree: Max Maxwell
    • Troll: Corvinus
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  42. Anonymous[681] • Disclaimer says:
    @follyofwar

    I’m not a fan of Tucker’s China bashing. Especially when he defends the Uyghurs, those loyal CIA proxy warriors working to destabilize China.

    • Agree: follyofwar
  43. Politics follows geography.

    In Europe the mountains and many of the rivers go east west. Europeans colonised North America so the political boundaries in North America go east west.

    The mountains and many of the rivers in North America go north south . Eventually political boundaries will be redrawn and they will go north-south.

    There will be at least three countries an English-speaking America: East Coast, West Coast and Midcontinent. Midcontinent will stretch from Texas to the Northwest Territories in what is now Canada.

    Most western Canadians will be happier in Midcontinent than they are now in Canada. West Coast will include coastal B.C.

  44. Corvinus says:
    @Gugwee

    “I am descended from Irish immigrants, but I don’t think the Irish were all that great for America.”

    Then go back. Leave my country.

    • Replies: @Gugwee
  45. Corvinus says:
    @WorkingClass

    “Thanks Pat. Separation is the only way forward”

    Wishful thinking. I’ve heard it for over fifty years. How do you plan to accomplish this goal? Who make these decisions? Is there a vote? An appeals process? Are people compelled to leave? What happens if they refuse? What about our institutions, how are they changed? What about international trade and the various treaties—are we no longer obligated to abide by those terms?

    Listen, rather than make this grandiose statement, put some thought into a detailed course of action.

    • Replies: @Cateechee
    , @CosmicMythos
  46. Trump hints at pardoning the political prisoners who stood against electoral fraud?

    Didn’t this same man make promises to those who had dirt on Hillary at wiki leaks?

    Where is Julian Assange?

    Is democracy dying? I know trust has died and as an extrapolation so has what was called democracy!

  47. Red states need to pass laws that ban welfare to blacks. They would then leave for the blue states.

    Would such laws be unconstitutional ? Absolutely not. America has had 50 years of affirmative action – 50 years of anti-white laws. They were deemed constitutional and so then must be anti-black laws.

  48. Dear Sir Patrick, I have had the boot of “democracy” pressed firmly upon my face since my first day of school until March 13, 2020.Please rephrase your question.

  49. A precondition of democracy is that the results of elections be recognized and respected

    I oppose democracy, i.e. mob rule.

    ‘Respect for elections’ can be counted on only when government is small, i.e. when its concerns are limited to things that nobody cares about. For example, we can all live with whatever the outcome of a vote on what should be the state fish of Arizona.

    Big government creates the endless conflict of tax leeches bloodying one another over who gets the money. When the stakes are that high, it’s impossible for the losing side to gracefully accept electoral defeat.

  50. Cateechee says:
    @Corvinus

    In 1860 and 1861 the people made the decision. The people of 12 Southern states elected delegates to constitutional conventions , called by the governor or state legislatures, to vote on their states independence. The conventions had to vote a super majority (66%) in order to legally secede. Only Missouri voted not to secede but that’s because Tennessee and Arkansas had not yet seceded and Missourians were worried about being surrounded by a yankee sea. Later, the legislature that the people elected voted Missouri out of the Union. In addition the people of Arizona territory voted to secede. Slavery was illegal in Arizona but was legal in New Mexico territory. New Mexico stayed with the US. In addition to the constitutional conventions the citizens of some state reiterated their choice to leave the US by voting a second time in plebiscites. Virginia voted 80% for independence (90% without West Virginia) with Richmond only having three people voting to stay with the US. Texans just barely gave the 66% necessary to give up their independence in 1845 but voted 75% in their 1861 referendum to leave the US. Tennessee, Arkansas and North Carolina also voted for independence by two third majorities or more. Hopefully, Americans can peacefully separate into independent states this time and realize a disastrous war not the answer.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  51. @Kevin The WASP

    Anglo-saxon democracy, no matter limited or enlarged the suffrage, was ALWAYS about lobbying and legal corruption. Read Jonathan Swift. That is what is euphemistically meant by a consensual system. More generally parliamentary systems are there when political power is dealt with as with a commodity and when the real masters of the game don’t want to tell who they are. The only hope for peoples to get rid of government by Jewish networks is an autocrat showing them his way or the highway.

    • Troll: Corvinus
  52. Corvinus says:
    @Cateechee

    Is there 66 percent of the American population who currently to secede? How about individual states, is that threshold met? Furthermore, you neglected to address the questions on how it will be actually done.

    • Replies: @heymrguda
  53. @Hang All Text Drivers

    Seems you’re exaggerating the low iq, but point generally well taken. And it’s more like 50 million-plus illegal aliens and 50-million-plus Africans (as the US populations is likely closer to 400 million than the lowball figures we’ve been hearing for so long).

  54. Cateechee says:

    No state could get the 66% required at this point because people have not really considered it but in a few more months that could change as people would start to see the benefit of true self government. Also, the US government is doing everything wrong now and that is disadvantageous to the average citizen. We need to mention secession to our friends and relatives in a positive way or at least in a neutral way to at get people used to the topic. Secession is not illegal. The US admitted as much when it made West Virginia out of Virginia. That is also the reason Jefferson Davis couldn’t be tried for treason. To get the war started the US backed South Carolina into having no choice but to fire on Fort Sumter. That was months after South Carolina seceded but the US government was able to say that the South didn’t want to leave in peace. And the flag had been fired on. The way to secede now is to work on a local level with friends and neighbors you can trust. When you have enough people behind you, get your state legislature or governor to call for a constitutional convention on the matter of independence from the USA. Considering the times, it is important to have your local group ready to carry out government functions when the US government is no longer able to do them. The way things are going the US may fall apart before we have a chance to vote on secession. Another thing we need to do is work with other secession minded groups in North America. Southerners are not alone.

  55. Gugwee says:
    @Corvinus

    I’m only 1/8 Irish. The other 7/8 gets to stay here.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  56. Corvinus says:
    @Gugwee

    Nope. That part drives your entire personality.

    You have to go back.

  57. heymrguda says:
    @Corvinus

    There might not be enough support for separation or secession right now, but there is vastly more than there was only a few years ag0, when the concept was unthinkable. The fact that Pat Buchanan has mentioned it as a possibility is in itself noteworthy — way to go Pat. If polarization continues unabated and more right wing commentators like Pat —Tucker Carlson for example — endorse it as a possibility we could see progress.
    When the left rails about the “threat to democracy” I think what they’re really concerned with is talk of secession.
    How to keep the progs out of any red state secession. No easy answers, — but I think leftists would be more likely avoid less glamorous flyover states like Ohio, western Pa., Indiana, Kentucky, Iowa Nebraska, Miss., Arkansas, Etc.
    Folks are beginning to realize that any accommodation with the left, as it presently constituted, is simply impossible.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @Prester John
  58. Corvinus says:
    @heymrguda

    “There might not be enough support for separation or secession right now, but there is vastly more than there was only a few years ag0, when the concept was unthinkable.”

    It’s not as many as you think. And with the lingering questions as I posed on how to get it done, it’s safe to say secession is a dream.

    “If polarization continues unabated and more right wing commentators like Pat —Tucker Carlson for example — endorse it as a possibility we could see progress.”

    Endorsements don’t matter a hill of beans if there is no step by step plan in place.

    “How to keep the progs out of any red state secession. No easy answers”

    There is NO answer here.

    “Folks are beginning to realize that any accommodation with the left, as it presently constituted, is simply impossible.”

    In your opinion.

    • Replies: @heymrguda
  59. @Corvinus

    Separation is the only way forward

    Wishful thinking. I’ve heard it for over fifty years.

    Listen, rather than make this grandiose statement, put some thought into a detailed course of action.

    This. A thousand times, a million times this

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  60. heymrguda says:
    @Corvinus

    It’s not up to you.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  61. Corvinus says:
    @CosmicMythos

    “Separation is the only way forward”

    OK, so where is your specific plan?

  62. Corvinus says:
    @heymrguda

    It’s up to all of U.S. So what’s your comprehensive plan that takes into account the pitfalls of secession?

  63. Jokem says:

    I think the War Between the States settled this matter, rightly or wrongly.

    It is a big question whether DC will go that far a second time.

  64. @Anon

    The first Irish President was Andrew Jackson (parents came from Ulster).

  65. @heymrguda

    Separation…but to where? India after WWII broke up into three countries: West Pakistan, India proper and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) but the process was messy, to put it mildly, involving among other things the assassination of Mohandas Ghandi. The problem is that just like the Muzzies were embedded within majority Hindu India, Right Wingers are embedded within Blue States (as in the case of my state of CT). If matters run the same course in America as they did in India, we will be in for, uh, “interesting” times.

  66. Alrenous says: • Website

    America is a Fascist country and has been since 1776.
    Adams was of course correct: the only reason it wasn’t a Fascist country in 1775 was because it wasn’t a country yet.

    Fascism can be diagnosed with six features:
    1. Dogmatism and xenophobia.
    2. Utopianism and rejection of wu wei.
    3. Obsession with the Plot of a State Enemy.
    4. Monogenderism.
    5. Newspeak.
    6. Demotism with unprinicipled exceptions.

    Fascists are basically fundamentalist Communists, but dispirited ones who have serious doubts about their faith. They believe absolutely in the moral rightness of literal concrete egalitarianism, but (since this is a false empirical statement) constantly see their faith challenged. In particular, they are aware that a Communist economy is omnicidal, not productive.

    Let’s briefly go over the six points.
    Fascism is a fundamentalist religion, which is where you get points 1 and 2.
    Fascism doesn’t work and someone must be blamed, which is where you get point 3. Similarly, because it’s Communism for faith-broken Communists, they need an excuse when they intentionally fail to live up to the ideals of Communism.
    Radical egalitarianism is so radical it believes men and women are identical and interchangeable, which in practice reduces to either men are defective women or women are defective men. Sinful, for constantly betraying the ideal of Fascism, especially in front of Fascists. In America, everyone is supposed to be a woman.
    Fascism is a degenerate copy of stone-age tribal economics, and this ultimately backwards set of ideals has to be disguised as brand-new ideals, hence point 5.
    If everyone were identical, everyone would be equally fit to rule; but of course the Fascist likes Fascism because it gives them power, so they make exceptions for themselves, whence point 6. This is reinforced, though I will elide these reinforcements for brevity.

    P.S. I sometimes like to call it envy worship, as they idolize the thoughts of anyone who is feeling envy.

    Fascism appears to be democratic due to point 6, but the iron law of oligarchy is actually an iron law; democracy is not merely unworkable, but logically impossible. The reason the Founding Mothers called it a Republic is, in part, because they intentionally leavened Democracy to try to make it sort-of work.

    But yes Fascism in America is dying. Fascism is obviously unsuitable for an industrial society. However, the rabid fundamentalists keep closing the loopholes and unprincipled exceptions which sort of allow it to function. Sometimes this is known as a holiness spiral, though since it’s literally worship of a sin, this would be better termed an unholiness spiral.

    The wages of sin are death. The wheel of Justitia grinds slow, but she grinds finely indeed.

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