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Here's Why You Should Skip the Covid Vaccine
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Chris Gash/New York Times
Chris Gash/New York Times

“The world has bet the farm on vaccines as the solution to the pandemic, but the trials are not focused on answering the questions many might assume they are.”
Peter Doshi, associate editor of the British Medical Journal and assistant professor of pharmaceutical health services research at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy

“The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.”
Albert Einstein

The new Covid vaccines will make billions of dollars for the big pharmaceutical companies, but here’s what they won’t do:

  1. The vaccines will not cure Covid
  2. The vaccines will not prevent people from contracting Covid
  3. The vaccines will not prevent Covid-related hospitalizations
  4. The vaccines will not prevent Covid-caused deaths

Now, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, “If the vaccine does not protect me from getting Covid (or dying from Covid), then why should I take it?”

And the answer is: “You shouldn’t. It makes no sense at all, especially in view of the fact that new vaccines pose considerable risks to one’s health and well-being.

“Risks,” you say? “No one said anything about risks. I thought this wonderful new Covid cure was entirely risk-free; just take the jab and– Presto– life goes back to normal.”

Wrong. There are risks, significant risks that the media and the medical establishment have papered-over with their ridiculous Happy Talk about “miracle” vaccines. But all of this is just public relations hype designed to hoodwink people into injecting themselves with a dubious substance that does NOT do what it’s supposed to do, and which DOES pose serious long-term risks to one’s health.

So, let’s dig a little deeper into this question of risks and see what are the experts saying. Check out this excerpt from an “Open Letter From: UK Medical Freedom Alliance To: The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunization… for COVID-19 in the UK.”:

“It is worrying that recent Parliamentary discussions seem to not attach proper weight to any concern about vaccine risks and the right to informed consent, while focusing solely on strategies to increase the uptake of vaccines in the general population.

Inadequate Assessment of the Public Health Risk from a Covid Vaccine

In a recent letter to the British Medical Journal (BMJ), physician Arvind Joshi warned against the disaster that could result from this misguided policy and outlined the serious risks involved to the public and other serious issues that are being taken if a Covid Vaccine is rushed out without thorough and adequate safety and efficacy testing:

“Adverse effects like Subacute Sclerosing Pan Encephalitis, Ascending Polyneuritis, Myopathies, Autoimmune Diseases, and rarer chance of triggering development of malignancies are most dreaded possibilities.“...“The rush for the Vaccines should not lead to disaster.” (Note: There is a more comprehensive list of potential ‘bad outcomes’ in the link to the article.)

Virus-vectored and genetically engineered vaccines could undergo recombination or hybridization with unpredictable outcomes.…Previous attempts to develop coronavirus and other vaccines e.g., RSV and dengue, have been hampered by the problem of ‘antibody dependent enhanced immunity’(ADEI), which has led to severe illness and deaths in the animals and human subjects involved in the trials28. This phenomenon only becomes apparent after vaccination, when the subject is exposed to wild virus at some point in the future. Worryingly, the Covid Vaccine trials have not been conducted in a way to exclude the possibility of this serious sequalae occurring months or years after vaccination...

Late onset adverse vaccine effects such as Subacute Sclerosing Pan Encephalitis (SSPE),Ascending Polyneuritis, Myopathies, Autoimmune Diseases, Infertility and Cancers cannot be ruled out with short duration trials.” (“Open Letter From: UK Medical Freedom Alliance To: The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunization… for COVID-19 in the UK.”)

It’s all very technical, but the truth is plain to see: There are serious risks associated with taking the Covid-19 vaccine. Most vaccine recipients will experience only minor aches and pains but some will undoubtedly get quite ill and permanently damage their health. No one really knows for sure because there have been no long-term trials. The Covid vaccine has been fast-tracked from Day 1. So, the question is: Do the benefits outweigh the risks. And, in this case, they clearly don’t. The chances of getting violently sick or dying from Covid are very slight, (IFR is 1 in 400) while the (potential) adverse effects from the vaccine are spelled out above. Why would anyone roll the dice on a vaccine that does not prevent one from contracting Covid, does not protect one from hospitalization, and will not prevent one from dying? That’s just not a good tradeoff. Here’s more from an article at Forbes:

“Prevention of infection must be a critical endpoint…(But) Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines. In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success, the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected“…

“We all expect an effective vaccine to prevent serious illness if infected. Three of the vaccine protocols…do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.” (“Covid-19 Vaccine Protocols Reveal That Trials Are Designed To Succeed”, Forbes)

Can you see what’s going on? “Prevention” is not even a primary objective. The standard for success in these trials is whether the vaccine mitigates Covid symptoms in people who test positive. But who cares about symptoms? What people care about is dying. That’s why people are so eager to get vaccinated, because they think it will eliminate the threat of dying.

This is a critical point, and one that is well worth mulling over.

Why?

Because it helps to illustrate how the vaccine campaign is built on a foundation of lies and deception. For example, when the drug companies boast that their product is “95% effective”, it does NOT mean that– if you get vaccinated– you will be immune to Covid. It doesn’t even mean that you won’t get violently ill and die. All it means is that the vaccine reduced the symptoms of some of the people in the trials who tested positive.

Did you know that?

Of course, you didn’t. You thought that if you took the vaccine, you’d be protected from Covid, because that is the logical assumption that anyone would make. Most people equate vaccines with immunity. The drug companies know that which is why they’re exploiting people’s ignorance and deliberately obfuscating the truth. They want people to continue to believe that vaccination is a protective shield that will save them from sickness and death. But it’s not. It’s a bunch of baloney.

Bottom line: Vaccine “effectiveness” is not measured in terms of “preventing infection”. It relates to the vaccine’s impact on symptoms. Here’s more from Forbes:

“One of the more immediate questions a trial needs to answer is whether a vaccine prevents infection. If someone takes this vaccine, are they far less likely to become infected with the virus? These trials all clearly focus on eliminating symptoms of Covid-19, and not infections themselves….

It appears that all the pharmaceutical companies assume that the vaccine will never prevent infection. Their criteria for approval is the difference in symptoms between an infected control group and an infected vaccine group. …

A greater concern for the millions of older people and those with preexisting conditions is whether these trials test the vaccine’s ability to prevent severe illness and death. Again, we find that severe illness and death are only secondary objectives in these trials. None list the prevention of death and hospitalization as a critically important barrier….

These protocols do not emphasize the most important ramifications of Covid-19 that people are most interested in preventing: overall infection, hospitalization, and death. It boggles the mind and defies common sense that the National Institute of Health, the Center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and the rest would consider the approval of a vaccine that would be distributed to hundreds of millions on such slender threads of success.

It appears that these trials are intended to pass the lowest possible barrier of success.” (“Covid-19 Vaccine Protocols Reveal That Trials Are Designed To Succeed“, Forbes)

The author is right, isn’t he? If the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection, it’s not worth taking. Period. And yet, all these high-falutin organizations are on-board with this farce. It’s a disgrace. We’re not even talking about a “low bar” for success here. We’re talking about “no bar”. If people are concerned about symptoms, they’d be better off taking an aspirin and leaving it at that. There’s no need to inject themselves with some hybrid cocktail that no one has the slightest idea of what the long-term effects might be. That’s just reckless.

Like we said earlier, the real issues are being cleverly concealed by the people in charge who are hyping the “95% effective” nonsense to hoodwink people into cooperating. It’s blatantly dishonest.

And here’s something else to think over: What do we really know about these miraculous vaccines that are supposed to lead us out of our “public health crisis”?

Not much. We know that they’re being rushed to market. We know that they were delayed for political reasons. We know the science is being shaped by the politics. We know that vaccine development typically takes 10 years, and that “rushed” vaccine development takes 3 years, and that the upcoming batch of dubious vaccines will have taken roughly 8 months.

8 months!

Do you find that reassuring? Does that make you want to push your way to the front of the line on Vaccine Day? And are you surprised that a large sampling of medical professionals has decided they aren’t going to take the vaccine until it’s been out for at least a year??

And here’s another thing: The pharmaceutical giants don’t even know if their vaccines will stop transmission or not. I’m not kidding, they really don’t know. So– along with the fact that the vaccine will not provide immunity– it also will not stop the spread of the infection which means, the pandemic will continue.

Don’t you think the public is entitled to know this?

And let’s not forget that these so called “vaccines” don’t really fit the traditional definition of vaccine at all. The CDC defines a vaccine as: “A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.”

And the CDC defines “immunization” as:

“A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.”

Well, we’ve already shown that the new vaccines do not necessarily provide immunity, so the question is whether they actually “stimulate a person’s immune system” or if the “vaccine” moniker was simply preserved as a promotional device to dupe the public? Here’s some background from an article at RT:

The type of vaccine being developed against Covid-19 has never been used before, outside of Ebola. Some people feel that they should not really be called vaccines, because they are completely different from anything that has gone before.

Up to now, vaccination has meant injecting a dead virus (or bacteria), or one that has been weakened and can only poorly replicate, or parts of the virus, or suchlike. Once inside the body, the immune system spots this ‘alien’ material, and creates a response against it, which will hopefully be remembered for years and years. The next time the dangerous virus appears, the body will use the immune memory of something very similar, to wipe out the virus (or bacteria) at high speed, giving it no chance to do damage

Now, we have a thing called a messenger RNA vaccine (mRNA). RNA is, effectively, a single strand of DNA – the double helix that sits within our cells and makes up our genetic code. Many viruses are made up of a single strand of RNA, surrounded by a protein sphere. They enter the cell, take over the replication systems, make thousands of copies of themselves, then exit the cell. Sometimes killing the cell as they do so, sometimes exiting more gently. Covid19 (Sars-Cov2) is an RNA virus.

Knowing this, rather than attempting to create a weakened virus, which can take years, or break the virus into bits, the v accine researchers decided to use Sars-Cov2’s RNA against itself. To do this, they isolated the section of RNA which codes for the ‘spike’ protein – which is the thing the virus uses as a ‘key’ to enter cells…

These spike proteins then leave the cell – somehow or other, this bit is unclear. The immune system comes across them, recognizes them as ‘alien’ and attacks. In doing so, antibodies are created, and the immune memory system kicks into action. If, later on, a Sars-Cov2 virus gets into the body, the immune system fires up and attacks the remembered spike protein. Hopefully killing the entire virus.” (“As a doctor, people ask me if it’s safe to take a new Covid vaccine“, RT)

It’s all very complicated and cutting-edge, but what’s clear is that “Messenger RNA” and “spike’ protein” are a far-cry from plain-old dead virus which has worked just fine for decades. It’s hard to understand why the drug companies decided to reinvent the wheel in trying to settle on an antidote for Covid. Even so, this new state-of-the-art technology does have its drawbacks as was pointed out in the letter by the researchers in the Medical Freedom Alliance. Here’s what they said:

“Several Covid Vaccines involve the use of a completely new technology -mRNA vaccination -whose large-scale use in healthy human subjects is unprecedented and long-term effects unknown. Exogenous mRNA is inherently immunostimulatory, and this feature of mRNA could be beneficial or detrimental. In addition, a study found evidence of molecular mimicry …

Virus-vectored and genetically engineered vaccines could undergo recombination or hybridisation with unpredictable outcomes….Previous attempts to develop coronavirus and other vaccines e.g., RSV and dengue, have been hampered by the problem of ‘antibody dependent enhanced immunity’(ADEI), which has led to severe illness and deaths in the animals and human subjects involved in the trials. This phenomenon only becomes apparent after vaccination, when the subject is exposed to wild virus at some point in the future. Worryingly, the Covid Vaccine trials have not been conducted in a way to exclude the possibility of this serious sequalae occurring months or years after vaccination.” (“Open Letter From: UK Medical Freedom Alliance To: The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunization… for COVID-19 in the UK.”)

The point is, the effects of injecting a hybrid concoction into one’s body could be quite serious. We just don’t know what the long-term effects will be, and we probably won’t know because the vaccine is going to be rushed into distribution before those trials can be conducted. This is not a sensible strategy for dealing with the virus. It is needlessly reckless and, perhaps, lethal. Here’s more from an article at the Jerusalem Post:

“There is a race to get the public vaccinated, so we are willing to take more risks,” Tal Brosh, head of the Infectious Disease Unit at Samson Assuta Ashdod Hospital, told The Jerusalem Post…..

“We will have a safety profile for only a certain number of months, so if there is a long-term effect after two years, we cannot know,” Brosh said, adding that we could wait two years to discover them, “but then we would have the coronavirus for two more years.”…

(Brosh) acknowledged that there are unique and unknown risks to messenger RNA vaccines, including local and systemic inflammatory responses that could lead to autoimmune conditions….. An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components…

(Michal) Linial ( a professor of biological chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, ) expressed similar sentiments: “Classical vaccines were designed to take 10 years to develop. I don’t think the world can wait for a classical vaccine.”….But when asked if she would take the vaccine right away, she responded: “I won’t be taking it immediately – probably not for at least the coming year,” she told the Post. “We have to wait and see whether it really works.” (“Could mRNA COVID-19 vaccines be dangerous in the long-term?“, The Jerusalem Post)

Great, so the “professor of biological chemistry” isn’t going to take the vaccine, but it’s okay for ordinary people like you and me??

Give me a break. Professor Linial’s reluctance is a tacit admission that the vaccine is not safe. What else could it mean? Here’s more from the same article:

“In order to receive Food and Drug Administration approval, the companies will have to prove there are no immediate or short-term negative health effects from taking the vaccines. But when the world begins inoculating itself with these completely new and revolutionary vaccines, it will know virtually nothing about their long-term effects.” (The Jerusalem Post)

Well, that’s just dandy. We know the vaccines won’t prevent infection, hospitalization or death. We also know they are “are completely different from anything that has gone before”. We also know they won’t stop transmission, and that their long-term safety is very much in doubt. Even so, our leaders– who lie to us about virtually everything– want us to click our heels and submissively take “the jab” whether we want to or not.

In my opinion, the risks of vaccination far outweigh the benefits. I would rather trust my own auto-immune system (and the new treatments, medications and therapies) then be guinea pig in Big Pharma’s sinister lab experiment.

“Thanks, but no thanks”.

 
• Category: Science • Tags: Anti-Vaxx, Conspiracy Theories, Coronavirus 
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  1. I read recently that some trial participants are becoming narcoleptic. One woman’s reaction was that it has ruined her life.

  2. SOS777 says:
    @RoatanBill

    How fitting that the COVID vaccine is causing people to fall asleep…thats what every single “precaution” for this “deadly virus” (with 99.7 percent survival) is designed to do- keep the masses asleep while the traditions of small business, home ownership, being able to hold church services, two genders etc are eliminated in their “Great Reset”. Somehow, strip clubs can’t spread COVID, at least that must be true because they are open while churches are closed. I’ll pass on this “miracle jab” that will probably “accidentally” sterilize millions like the vaccine Baal Gates generously donated to 3rd world nations.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    , @animalogic
  3. No mention of Profusa’s hydrogel in the article. Maybe that’s another story for another day.

    No toxxine for me – period.

  4. @SOS777

    The virus scam is a distraction to keep people off the streets and not concentrating on the massive looting going on by the major corporations. I think this is the last hurrah before the dollar falls.

    TPTsB are using free funny money to purchase distressed properties so in a short while, the 1% will own everything worth owning before the currency depreciates to zero. This is essentially a theft and conversion effort to force people and businesses into bankruptcy so their property hits the market at a few cents on the dollar and the rich get to turn green pieces of paper into tangible goods before the peons catch on.

  5. Notsofast says:

    so these so called vaccines won’t give you immunity to this disease but big pharma has been given legal immunity from claims of damage done by these untested “vaccines” hurried to market in a
    21st century gold rush for big pharma. the usual nonhuman animal testing was waived in this
    medical blitzkrieg and vaccines with an effective rate as low as 60% will be in at the feeding trough.

  6. onebornfree says: • Website

    Long story short: scams on scams.

    To whit: the virus is a scam, the pandemic is a scam, the lockdowns are a scam, the vaccines are a scam- end of story.

    Regards, onebornfree

  7. LadyTheo says:

    The Forbes article dates to September. Nothing in it is correct. Thousands of people received the vaccines in Moderna’s and Pfizer’s trials, not the tiny number the Forbes article claims. The measure of efficacy was infected vs not-infected, NOT diminution of symptoms. Finally, although not a primary endpoint, prevention of severe infections has been seen with both vaccine candidates.

    (The interim analysis of very small numbers was done in order to end the trial if there was evidence of futility. This is done very frequently in clinical trials these days. Continuing a trial with an agent that has no apparent benefit is a waste of money–and with no benefit to outweigh risks, could be seen as unethical. OTOH, sometimes products get shelved that are actually effective for subsets of patients or that might be effective if used in different ways. Such is life.)

    As to the parade of horribles the British guy posits as POSSIBILITIES…a recitation of possible side effects that then are not seen in the actual results….that’s just propaganda.

    I agree that this virus is not a deadly one; and I see no need for a vaccine. Nonetheless, normal life apparently is not going to resume without a vaccine. It seems to me your rancor should be directed towards those who have brainwashed hundreds of millions of people into believing that a case of corona virus is akin to being bitten by a rabid dog.

  8. @onebornfree

    Well, there is one very important aspect of our lives which is NOT a scam: the intentional/planned demolition of our economy and middle class ( or what’s left of them )…that’s very REAL ! What’ worst in my opinion, is the fact that the majority of the sheeple, I mean people, are not ( yet ) aware of what’s going on…”We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987

  9. @RoatanBill

    Serious question: if currency depreciates drastically then there is hyper-inflation. Is property not affected by this inflation?

  10. Franz says:

    Short story: the wife works at a pharmacy and is required to get a seasonal flu shot every year.

    Last one gave here a reaction that included the nastiest case of hives and rashes I have ever seen. The allergist, a respected doctor for many years, put her on some medicine and gave her some diet advice. He told me he’s sure it will clear up… in about 18 months.

    I never let ’em jab me for anything. I’ve had no flu shot for years. And no flu either. Screw the overlords and keep yourself in shape, follow a sane diet, and you don’t need any jab at all.

    • Agree: Brooklyn Dave
  11. JasonT says:

    RNA is used in biotechnology as a vector for transfecting cells with protein coding DNA that is hooked up to the RNA. Once in the cell, this protein coding DNA starts producing the protein in the cell. It makes me wonder whether these ‘vaccines’ are designed to co-opt cells to make them into protein factories for some foreign protein. If that protein is a prion, the results will be horrific.

  12. maybe we should inject masks?

  13. Here is precisely as I did understood the vaccine. Vaccine is dead virus that is injected, it gets into blood stream, ir goes through spleen there its pattern is detected , and spleen start to manufacture the K-cels (antibodies). this process take some time. Even after all virus is eliminated from blood stream, the pattern remain in spleen for very long time. This process is called immunity. (Quick response of the body to next infection because the pattern is already there and antibodies are created instantly)

    If only part of the virus is injected (that increases the cells ability to resist penetration of the virus that is the modification of the cells of the body) that will not create k-cells. (antibodies)
    …………………………………………………………….
    So this vaccine is nothing but FRANKENSTEIN’S medical experiment.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………….
    Is the Russian vaccine the same type?

  14. @SOS777

    “Baal Gates” — like it !

  15. @Billy Chav

    Real property & chattels can be bought or sold or bartered for non depreciated currencies or assets: gold, silver, bit-coin etc, other currencies, even products such as bulk food, drugs, anything which retains steady demand.
    That’s how the rich can exploit outbursts of inflation: sellers are all desperate, “real” prices become radically reduced. The wealthy can use their access to other mediums of value (or credit) to buy up “valuable” properties for “pennies on the dollar”. Then — wait out the economic turbulence, knowing that whatever “hope” there is will land on you, the “deserving rich”.

  16. @LadyTheo

    Nonetheless, normal life apparently is not going to resume without a vaccine.

    Normal life isn’t going to resume with a vaccine either. Fauci is already telling us that we’ll still have to wear masks, do social-distancing, etc., even after the jab.

    We need to tell TPTB where they can stick their needle.

    • Agree: LadyTheo, mark green
    • Replies: @Abbybwood
    , @Riley
  17. A more obvious scam than this ‘vaccine’ I couldn’t imagine.

    These trials all clearly focus on eliminating symptoms of Covid-19, and not infections themselves….

    Ha, ha! If those stupid PCR tests are to believed, more than 99% of the people who test ‘positive’ are asymptomatic anyway.

    It boggles the mind and defies common sense that the National Institute of Health, the Center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and the rest would consider the approval of a vaccine that would be distributed to hundreds of millions on such slender threads of success.

    Sadly, the more I find out about these institutions and who controls them, the less their malpractice (and malfeasance) boggles my mind.

    … the real issues are being cleverly concealed by the people in charge who are hyping the “95% effective” nonsense to hoodwink people into cooperating.

    The thin is, even if we accept the official story in this case and grant that the ‘vaccine’ is 95% effective, it would still make no sense to get it, since Covid-19 has a 99.75% survival rate! It would be as pointless as a flu shot — assuming it isn’t downright dangerous.

    • Replies: @hetro
  18. @Billy Chav

    What @animalogic said.

    It’s the same scam being run from the Great Depression playbook, only on steroids.

  19. @Notsofast

    “…..the usual nonhuman animal testing was waived in this medical blitzkrieg….”

    This is the key element to remember and to focus on.

    Animals testing allows for a ‘long term’ analysis to be done in only months on non-humans who share critical similarities essential for evaluating the long term effects of these potentially dangerous concoctions in short order. This element was deliberately avoided for the obvious reason that it would likely produce catastrophic results that would end mRNA vaccine tech quickly and finally.

    Animal studies could have been done simultaneously with the human trials, but again, it was ‘waived’.

    This Covid-19 nonsense is all about “The Jab”. It is about getting into people’s bodies on a regular basis with products that contain hidden ingredients that will have enormous effects on the populace that only ‘the elites’ will be privy to. You can rest assured they will NOT be taking their own medicine.

    I believe it is all about population reduction and control, nothing more, and the manufactured Covid-19 ‘crisis’ was the convenient vehicle to get us there. Trust me, they have other ‘vehicles’ in store for us, and especially nasty ones if we don’t all volunteer for “The Jab” the first time out, and maybe even if we do.

    Lockdowns are the punishment they inflict on the commoners to gain compliance with their evil scheme.

    I am constantly reminded of the psychopath, “Buffalo Bill” in the movie “Silence of the Lambs”, who views his victims as an “it” rather than as a person, whenever he addresses same. Lockdowns are like ‘the hose’ he threatens his victims with if they do not comply with his orders. Thus, our current situation can be summed up in a variation on the poem he recites to his lady captive, except this poem comes from our psychopathic elites and leaders to us:

    “It takes the Jab into it’s skin, or it gets locked-down again’.

    We are the “it”, we are seen as mere pieces of meat to be pierced and injected with whatever they wish, and God help those who will resist their plans to invade our bodies at will for whatever nefarious schemes they have up their evil sleeves……

  20. Erebus says:
    @Zarathustra

    Is the Russian vaccine the same type?

    No, totally different.

    It uses two common human adenoviruses (quite harmless) onto which they’ve “grafted” salient bits of SARS-2 RNA. In a sense, it’s actually 2 separate but complementary vaccines given in separate doses spaced 21 days apart.

    Human adenovirus based vaccines have a 50 yr history, and are about as safe as it gets.

    From my readings of a few mos ago, it’s the only one that goes beyond the short term immunity gained from the creation of antibodies. After the 2nd dose, corona “hunting” T-cells have been observed, which are much longer lived and can yield years of immunity against infection.

    Things may have changed since I buried myself in the subject, so the above may be obsolete. Regardless, I wouldn’t go near an mRNA vectored vaccine unless I was already on a ventilator and was out of options.

    • Agree: Mustapha Mond
    • Thanks: Zarathustra
    • Replies: @Donald A Thomson
  21. BuelahMan says:

    Well, we know Paul Craig Roberts didn’t write this for at least two reasons:
    1) we can comment. He doesn’t allow comments on certain (most) subjects
    2) PCR was one of the first fear mongers here at Unz regarding this Covid Crap. He would never write such a thing now, because most of us know that his first many writings on the subject were full of shit.

    There is no way I am taking a vaccine. But I wonder about PCR.

    The biggest issue facing us with Covid 19 is the massive theft and power play jewry is conducting.

    • Agree: druid55
  22. 5. The vaccines will not end lockdowns
    6. The vaccines will not end masks
    7. The vaccines will not end social distancing
    8. The vaccines will not end media talking about Covid 24/7

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  23. There is a tremendous amount of nonsense you’re quoting because you lack the domain knowledge to understand it, which concerns might be a real and which aren’t, or not yet. I’ll first focus on this:

    It’s all very complicated and cutting-edge, but what’s clear is that “Messenger RNA” and “spike’ protein” are a far-cry from plain-old dead virus which has worked just fine for decades. It’s hard to understand why the drug companies decided to reinvent the wheel

    Ignoring that you’re ignoring the live virus vaccines you discuss elsewhere, it’s trivial. Once you have the general technology, a first cut vaccine specific for the mRNA that codes for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein can literally be created in two days, as Moderna did after the sequence was first released on January 10th.

    There turns out to be quite a bit more work behind it based on years long efforts to create a MERS vaccine, Pfizer/BioNTech’s, and I’d bet some of the others us it, this article has an excellent account. Iincluding a molecular genetics explanation for the RSV debacle, which was specifically avoided for the two currently advanced mRNA vaccines with 2P modifications to the mRNA sequence. But not I’ve read the AZ/Oxford adenovirus virus vector vaccine, which is a general clown show, and which your sources that focus on it have doubts about.

    Also note the whole process has taken ten months so far, Moderna was perhaps the first to get started in the West and they’re still waiting until they have enough Phase 3 safety data. And just for the purposes of an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), not “approval,” let alone for the general population. Pfizer had infinitely more experience in doing Phase 3 trials and avoided Moderna’s month or so delay to enroll more minorities (and/or this was a convenient excuse to delay efficacy reporting until after the election, which Pfizer deliberately did as iSteve has discussed). And even they took ten months and ten days before they could submit their EUA application.

    For safety for the purposes of an EUA, the FDA is demanding one half of the vaccine arm be followed for two months after the second dose, based on the observation that the vast majority of bad side effects happen within a month and a half. The leading adenovirus virus vector vaccines, AZ/Oxford, Janssen (Johnson & Johnson)/BIDMC, and Sputnik V required more time to create, and they’re not as far along in testing. Your sources sound most worried about the AZ/Oxford vaccine, and they may have some points. It’s using an established but still fairly new vaccine technology, unlike the mRNA ones, which in theory should be the safest of all COVID-19 vaccines (I’ll make some more comments on that in direct replies to some others). But of course that theory has to be proven in testing.

    On the hybridization concern, to the extent that’s not just confounding the flu with non-segmented viruses like the coronaviruses, you by definition need more than one strain of the virus. We don’t have that for SARS-CoV-2, and may never get it, for example coronaviruses are unique among RNA viruses in having a proofreading mechanism. Or this will have to be possible with one or more of the existing four “mild” strains of human coronaviruses. We may have tested enough people by now to know if this is going to be an issue, for example 37 thousand people in the two mRNA vaccine trial arms. And if it can happen with a very narrowly tailored vaccine like the mRNA ones, it can and has absolutely happened with the wild type virus that millions have contracted, although we might not have noticed it yet.

    For antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), see the above link for RSV vaccines, and the problem with dengue vaccination is pretty notorious. ADE depends on the vaccine providing a subpar antibody response, and there’s no sign at all either of the mRNA vaccines have this problem, although they necessarily don’t also provide a response to the nucleocapsid protein like you get in a response to the actual whole virus.

  24. @JasonT

    RNA is used in biotechnology as a vector for transfecting cells with protein coding DNA that is hooked up to the RNA. Once in the cell, this protein coding DNA

    Bzzt! The fundamental paradigm of molecular genetics is DNA -> mRNA -> proteins. With mRNA vectors, like the mRNA vaccines, DNA never comes into the pictures, can’t without something like reverse transcriptase to go in the reverse direction.

    starts producing the protein in the cell. It makes me wonder whether these ‘vaccines’ are designed to co-opt cells to make them into protein factories for some foreign protein.

    No need to wonder, that’s exactly what the mRNA and adenovirus virus vector vaccines do by design, the former producing only the spike protein, with a modification that makes it a lot more stable (see my comment replying to the author for a link to the details of this). Vaccines by definition need to provide something alien to the body for it to develop antibodies against.

    If that protein is a prion, the results will be horrific.

    Umm, no. Prions work by causing adjacent copies of the same protein to misfold. Seeing as how coronavirus spike proteins are alien, the body doesn’t have a substrate of them in tissues necessary for this to happen.

  25. @JasonT

    You got the DNA/RNA thing ass-about-face, but the intention is clear and very valid. Your idea of prions, now THAT is gonna keep me awake for a while…
    To think, yesterday my biggest worry was the metals in there.
    https://www.greenpets.co.za/index.php/en/50-greenpets-natural-happiness/natural-living/stories/180-metallic-inheritance

  26. @Zarathustra

    Vaccine is dead virus that is injected

    There are many types of vaccines. Some “killed,” technically inactivated like the Salk type polio vaccine. Others just present an alien protein to the body, like the flu and tetanus toxoid ones. Some are live viruses, either attenuated so they don’t cause disease, or genetically modified so they have the desired properties. For the adenovirus virus vector vaccines, they have the code for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein spliced in, and are attenuated by design, they are “replication deficient,” their ability to make more copies of themselves has been gimped.

    it gets into blood stream, ir goes through spleen there its pattern is detected , and spleen start to manufacture the K-cels (antibodies). this process take some time. Even after all virus is eliminated from blood stream, the pattern remain in spleen for very long time. This process is called immunity. (Quick response of the body to next infection because the pattern is already there and antibodies are created instantly)

    This sounds like a correct description of part of the adaptive immune system. Except live virus and mRNA vaccines work just like the wild type virus, in that they hijack host cells and make them produce viral proteins, specifically the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. The mRNA vaccines produce only this protein. The adaptive immune system has ways to detect cells that have been hijacked by a virus, bacteria, etc., and goes beyond just targeting one or more alien proteins, it targets cells that are pumping out these alien proteins. Best to stop the problem at the source.

    If only part of the virus is injected (that increases the cells ability to resist penetration of the virus that is the modification of the cells of the body) that will not create k-cells. (antibodies)
    …………………………………………………………….
    So this vaccine is nothing but FRANKENSTEIN’S medical experiment.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Artificially created virus vector vaccines like the adenovirus ones for COVID-19 are indeed “Frankenstein” style creations, stuff is added (DNA for the spike protein), stuff is removed or changed (other DNA that’s required to reproduce), and I am indeed more suspicious of them than mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines are very, very narrow, the only thing they can hijack cells to produce is the spike protein. And a slightly modified one that’s much more stable than the normal one, see the link I provide in my first comment here, in reply to the author.

    Is the Russian vaccine the same type?

    Yes, Sputnik V is an adenovirus virus vector vaccine, and compared to the AZ/Oxford one is double the fun, two different adenovirus viruses are used, one for the first and the other for the second dose. Which shows the Russian scientists anticipated a likely cause of a problem that’s been discovered in the AZ/Oxford human tests, an accidental half-dosing in the first dose given to a number of test subjects produced what they learned was a much better response by the immune system. The theorized problem which has been observed before is that the body can develop an immune system response to the virus vector itself, preventing it from working properly in the second dose, too much of it gets taken out before it can do its job.

    • Replies: @hillaire
  27. @Mustapha Mond

    “…..the usual nonhuman animal testing was waived in this medical blitzkrieg….”

    It’s not “key” to remember this because it’s a lie, at least for the mRNA vaccines, which are the only ones we need to be concerned about now because the adenovirus virus vector vaccines are way later than they are in being tested (and AZ/Oxford’s testing is a clown show). What did happen with the mRNA vaccines is that the first human tests including Phase 1, and tests on mice and macaques were done in parallel. Dicey for the Phase 1 test subjects, but

    Animals testing allows for a ‘long term’ analysis to be done in only months on non-humans who share critical similarities essential for evaluating the long term effects of these potentially dangerous concoctions in short order.

    was of course not skipped. Phase 2 trials, Moderna’s started in June, that allows four and a half months for animal testing. Looks like Pfizer/BioNTech did blended I/II and II/III trials after the first Phase I trial, and the I/II started in early May. And thus plenty of months elapsed to follow the fate of the animals before the Phase III trials began with 15,000 or 22,000 in the vaccine “arm,” that is the half that got a vaccine vs. a placebo injection.

  28. There is NO COVID-19 Vaccine. That particular variant we refer to as COVID-19 has not been duplicated thus giving them a clone from which they can make the vaccine, so they are going down another path that has not had enough testing to be laid upon the public as the latest panacea.

    mRNA type vaccines may not be what they are hyping it to be, and when the CDC has not had time to do its own testing, they leave it up to the drug companies to do the testing and then just take their word for itS efficacy. That in itself is a major Conflict of Interest. It is like allowing the fox to guard the Hen House.

    DO NOT TAKE THAT VACCINE UNTIL IT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO HAVE A PROVEN EFFICACY. YOU MAY JUST SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE.

  29. @That Would Be Telling

    Links, please. If you’re going to call Mr Whitney a ‘liar’, I’d like to know where you get the data to make such an accusation.

    If indeed you are correct, that would be much better news than the ‘waivers’ that are claimed by Mr Whitney.

    However, I note that you only joined Unz here as commenter back in May of last year when this Covid debate on this website was raging, and nearly all of your 136 comments and 30,900 words are in defense of mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, the fear porn surrounding the Covid-19 event, and Pig Pharma on the whole.

    I find that very interesting and quite enlightening.

    Oh, and by the way, my wife and I (who are in our 60s) both have had Covid-19, as have a number of our friends, documented by proper testing. It was, in all cases, nothing more than a bad cold, although the symptoms were quite curious and novel, I will admit. But nothing, and I mean nothing, to rush out any vaccines for, that’s for sure……..

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  30. @Rumplestiltskin

    There is NO COVID-19 Vaccine. That particular variant we refer to as COVID-19 has not been duplicated thus giving them a clone from which they can make the vaccine….

    Can you be more specific about this claim? Do you understand the concept of “conserved” regions of genetic code and their resulting proteins?

    mRNA type vaccines may not be what they are hyping it to be, and when the CDC has not had time to do its own testing

    The CDC has no official role whatsoever in this, the FDA is the relevant regulatory agency, which even the CDC must get approval from for example for their RT-PRC test which almost no one else could make work, even before you consider their in-house manufacturing contamination problems. Seriously, when it comes to infectious diseases, now unfashionable in the public health establishment, you want the least involvement you can get from the CDC. I only trust their reports of total death certificates the states must send them, and there’s where the recent suppressed paper appears to be in major disagreement, despite claiming they used the same raw data.

    they leave it up to the drug companies to do the testing and then just take their word for itS efficacy.

    Not sure spending billions and billions on the FDA would produce better results, where is that money going to come from? And they’re surely corruptible. The

    FDA inserts one strong protection, these tests are double blinded, meaning no one except an independent committee knows who is in the vaccine and control arms of the trial (although to the extent there are the normal vaccination side effects, and testing for antibodies, some unblinding occurs naturally). So the company reports to the committee subjects 1485, 2843, 3466, etc. got symptomatic COVID-19, and for Moderna the eleven that got “severe” cases (see their published test protocol), then the committee unblinds those subjects and it’s fairly simple math after that, a bit more complicated if you want to know the statistical significance. Same goes with side effects, how it took a little while to discover that the Brazilian that died, we now hear of COVID-19, was in AZ/Oxford’s placebo arm.

    • Replies: @Rumplestiltskin
  31. My recommendation would be testing the US vaccine for two decades on black population before apply it to white population. It makes sense. Mortality rate of black population is considerably higher than white population from this virus.

    • Replies: @cronkitsche
  32. MEH 0910 says:
    @RoatanBill

    The narcolepsy was from a past swine flu vaccine:

    https://www.yahoo.com/now/narcolepsy-fiasco-spurs-covid-vaccine-024146859.html

    Take a vaccine developed in haste? Never again, says Meissa Chebbi, who, like hundreds of other young Swedes suffered debilitating narcolepsy after a mass vaccination campaign against the 2009-2010 swine flu pandemic.

  33. @Mustapha Mond

    Links, please. If you’re going to call Mr Whitney a ‘liar’, I’d like to know where you get the data to make such an accusation.

    The search is really simple, try this Bing one for example. Search results are a bit personalized, but just now I found for example new to me hand wringing about this parallel process, which absolutely no one claims should be done outside of an emergency, in this case the worst pandemic in a century….

    However, I note that you only joined Unz….

    Don’t submit yourself to the genetic fallacy (heh), attack my arguments, not me. But can you not make even the slightest of guesses as to why almost all my commenting history here is on this topic?

    I have a very solid STEM education, which was focused on biology until I found chemistry was my true calling. Also learned a lot of medicine informally, starting from a RN specialist mother and her college textbooks, and a bunch of doctors who were friends and/or business associates of my father. So unlike global political affairs and conspiracies, “American Pravda,” and, oh, “Of Nazis in Comic Books and Everyday Life” where I’m here to learn, on this topic I can make major contributions, having for example done recombinant DNA based research at a university in the mid-1970s before graduating from high school (by then, the boring type on bacteria, for genetic mapping).

    When you have a PI and a grad student happy for some tedious free skilled labor, who like to informally teach and have time for that during a summer, you can learn a lot of things. Later I took a biology course from Mr. Bacteriophage himself. And isn’t this interesting, his first grad student was none other than James D. Watson…. History is my love in the humanities, nowadays most of my reading for pleasure, and it’s fascinating to learn these sorts of links. See for example Alonzo Church and his grad student Alan Turing, the men who came up with the two useful in the real world models of computation.

    So when for example the common claim is made that “mRNA vaccines turn you into a GMO” I can point out exactly why this is not true, or no more so than the wild type virus (unless someone spikes the vaccine with reverse transcriptase, and then that would likely fail because the hijacked cells are going to come to an ugly end one way or another, nothing hiding them from the immune system like HIV does).

    And since I plan on getting a COVID-19 vaccine sooner or later (in the lowest priority group, so no rush), and advise my friends on that, several of which are first generation Boomers and thus as much higher risk than I, I have a very direct interest the topic. And the demands of these discussions and arguments have substantially increased my knowledge, for example first learning here what a clown show the AZ/Oxford testing has turned out to be. Or foundational stuff, like just today learning the exact details of how antibody-dependent enhancement works, from which it is easily deduced it’s a very unlikely problem for our dealings with Corona-chan.

    • Replies: @Mustapha Mond
    , @GeeBee
  34. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Of course! Plus, the vaccines won’t cure anyone of “Covid-19” either . The manufacturers have already obliquely admitted as much, but besides those “fine print”confessions, the vaccines won’t work because the virus doesn’t even exist. And, even if it did exist, the vaccines still wouldn’t cure anyone of it. HOWEVER, they can “prove” that they do work by manipulation of the PCR [fake] test results, simply by decreasing amplification settings per PCR test after a vaccine has been administered, to any/all vaccinated “Covid-19 patients”. As I said before, “scams on scams”.

    But of course, the PTB’s stated goal of vaccinating the entire planet has got nothing to do with curing anyone of anything, and everything to do with having the ability to track every human on a daily, second by second basis, worldwide, wherever they go.

    And so it goes…..

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  35. @MEH 0910

    Take a vaccine developed in haste? Never again, says Meissa Chebbi, who, like hundreds of other young Swedes suffered debilitating narcolepsy after a mass vaccination campaign against the 2009-2010 swine flu pandemic.

    Now this is weird. Each year’s flu vaccines never get more than cursory testing before they’re approved for humans, because there’s simply no time, efficacy is guessed during the flu season, and determined after it. Can’t find or remember the exact timelines, but 6+ months before a hemisphere’s flu season, Top Men make wild guesses at what the most prevalent strains will be that many months later.

    For old fashioned chicken egg membrane production, new strains require creations of seed strains which is done using the flu’s otherwise unfortunate hybridization ability due to its genes being in there own segments, Protein Sciences skips that by just inserting the DNA coding for one protein in bug cells, which are then grown in bioreactors. One or two proteins, the H and N ones, are then isolated/purified from these whole cell brews, and you have a standard issue vaccine. OK, I can see one possible shortcut here, trying to stretch the supplies of the needed proteins by upping the adjutants in the vaccines.

    Can’t think of other legitimate shortcuts that can be taken in the process, besides of course new manufacturing methods like Protein Science’s. Although the special and most certainly hurried in production, not design initial 2009-10 swine flu vaccine was unique in only having proteins for it, vs. the normal seasonal ones having 3-4, one H1N1 and one H3N2, and 1-2 B strains.

    Whereas COVID-19 vaccines are to a greater or lessor extent new designs, and of course against not just a new pathogen, but a new class of them, albeit one on which a lot of work had been done after MERS proved SARS was not going to be one-off, and require the full spectrum of testing. But given this is an emergency, no need to spend a lot of time chasing grant money, plenty of volunteers for testing, the normal steps can be started quickly, while taking the normal time to complete. Including the risky for the mRNA Phase I trial participants of animal testing being done in parallel. But not a skipped step. Ah, also Operation Warp Speed Manhattan Project style production of doses prior to learning if they will turn out to be safe and effective. Compare to reactor bred plutonium not being suitable for gun assembly bomb designs (and due to that, civilian reactor plutonium is useless for practical, compact, and significant yield devices).

    So given this was appears to not a world wide phenomena, either someone screwed up one or more batches destined for Sweden (who makes their vaccines?), and/or perhaps we have a case a mass hysteria, the numbers are pretty small and that linked article gave that sort of vibe.

  36. @onebornfree

    Plus, the vaccines won’t cure anyone of “Covid-19” either.

    Since when have vaccines ever been prompted as anything more than an (imperfect) prevention tool???

    Of course, since you claim the virus doesn’t exist, we have no further basis of discussion. The “You never let good a crisis go to waste” issue is one I think Unz.com contributors are in broad agreement on, and it hardly matters if it’s COVID-19 which is killing all these people per excess all cause mortality statistics, and the filling of hospitals with victims of something nasty, or it’s all a mass hallucination, mind over matter resulting in both these outcomes….

    • Replies: @Trygve Blodøks
  37. @That Would Be Telling

    Thank you TWBT for the correction on the difference between the CDC and the FDA. I had forgotten which was which.

    I visit many sites a day and read many articles by scientist and came upon one scientist who wrote an article about the actual science behind what is going on behind the scenes at the drug companies. Because of how he explained what he knew about bio-labs and the creation of viruses, I believed him. I do not save those sites addresses though, sorry.

    I still believe it is a gross conflict of interest allowing the drug companies do their own testing of something they have spent great amounts of money on, as there is no incentive for them to find anything wrong with their drugs use. This has been an ongoing problem with the big-pharma for at least the last twenty years, and both the CDC and FDA have revolving doors for their top executives with big pharma creating more conflicts of interest.

    Anyway, thanks again for the clarification.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  38. hillaire says:
    @LadyTheo

    The toxcine like covid is merely a plot vehicle, biometric passports are the required outcome, a vehicle with which they will reshape society.

    Believe me when I say, you wont be getting your life back if they are successful.

  39. @Zarathustra

    Viruses can only be seen under an electron microscope, and nothing can survive the preparation and vacuum. So how can they judge a virus is “dead” when nobody has ever seen a live one?

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
  40. hillaire says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    The virus hasn’t even been isolated.

    But you know that, don’t you ?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  41. @That Would Be Telling

    I did not attack you at all. In fact, my reply should have been seen by you as supportive: “If indeed you are correct, that would be much better news than the ‘waivers’ that are claimed by Mr Whitney.”

    How is that anything other than conditionally supportive?

    I look forward to reading the link provided. Thank you.

    Returning to the unwarranted ‘attack’ accusation, I merely pointed out facts that anyone can verify by simply clicking on your handle and checking out your history. No logical fallacy can be inferred from that. I drew no conclusions that were expressed, other than I found those facts ‘interesting and enlightening’, which they are. I did not accuse you of being a paid industry shill, who sits around all day monitoring websites and responding in ways beneficial to your employer. In truth, I found your posts quite excellent, very well presented and informed and….. (wait for it)……. enlightening.

    However, I do view Pig Pharma as greedy, having been a successful civil attorney for many years and knowing what happened in the Vioxx matter, the Dalkon Shield, etc. They are corporations who must maximize shareholder value as their top priority by law. And as for fear porn, well, having had Covid-19, I believe the hype from the press and the pols is excessive and does constitute fear porn. But with the MSM deriving a huge portion of their advertising profits from pharmaceutical adverts, one cannot expect them to ‘bite the hand that feeds them’. Same goes for politicians, even more so.

    The fact you became touchy for me merely pointing out simple verifiable truths about your activities here on Unz is to me, again, interesting and enlightening to some degree. But your apparent knowledge of the subject is quite admirable, even if shared with what might be described as an over-exuberance……

    (But PLEASE don’t refer to it as Corona-Chan. The bug has been around long before the Wuhan games, as the Italian physicians have pointed out from samples taken from tuberculosis patients in September of last year, and slamming China is frankly obnoxious and xenophobic and unbecoming of an otherwise obviously intelligent person.)

    • Replies: @frontier
  42. Dumbo says:

    In 1973, Jonas (((Salk))), creator of the polio vaccine, wrote a book called “Survival of the Wisest”.

    In this book, he basically says that Evolution is God and that a cognitive elite must control and shape the future evolution of man.

    Among the possible methods used to obtain such shaping of human evolution, he discusses disease-causing vaccines and “injecting a virus with RNA and DNA” as an experiment to modify our genes.

    The book is very difficult to find (I could not even find a pdf), but there was a video about it some time ago (unless it was deleted) which included a very detailed reading.

    COVID is a lie, and this vaccine is a risk not worth taking. It is VERY strange and scary that they are planning to vaccinate BILLIONS of people within such a short time, before risks are assessed.

  43. TG says:
    @MEH 0910

    Indeed the narcolepsy was from a past swine flu vaccine distributed in Sweden.

    But one should remember, these bad effects were due to the drug companies using an ‘adjuvant’ to boost the effectiveness of the vaccine – which pushed many people’s immune systems too hard and they reacted against their own bodies.

    Sure, all other things being equal, a vaccine that is 94% effective is better than one that is 84% effective. Unless the way they got that last 10% of effectiveness was to use risky additives to maximize the immune response…

    Given this article, perhaps these vaccines are not really effective at all. Nevertheless, I would worry about a vaccine whose effectiveness is almost too good to be true.

    I could whip up a painkiller cocktail that would absolutely eliminate all of your pain, 100% guaranteed, but it would also kill you. I could also make a concoction that would 99% guarantee to reduce high blood pressure to normal, and also kill maybe half the people taking it. You get the idea.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  44. @Rumplestiltskin

    Because of how he explained what he knew about bio-labs and the creation of viruses, I believed him. I do not save those sites addresses though, sorry.

    I started keeping clips of interesting articles long before SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19 started roaming the earth, and it’s been invaluable for that topic as well. We’re talking about

    That particular variant we refer to as COVID-19 has not been duplicated thus giving them a clone from which they can make the vaccine

    whereas as far as I know, there’s only one real “variant” since the very beginning of the outbreak, coronaviruses are unique among RNA viruses in having a proofreading mechanism, so they mutate at low rates, and those outside the PRC started getting their first close looks at it in early January. On January 10th, initially without authorization, the genetic codes for a variety of very minor variations started to be released by scientists in the PRC, and Thailand was the first to see the link between those and one of their patients, within a day or two (helps to have a princess who’s a biochemist).

    There’s also the concept of “conservation” which I mentioned; many parts of what leads up to a protein can survive minor change, but other parts have to stay the same, sort of like the lock into which a key fits, or “the virus won’t virus.” That’s what allows us to have a lot of “eternal” vaccines for viruses with higher mutation rates than SARS-CoV-2, and on the other hand, for whatever reason, both the body and human vaccines can’t nail this for the flu.

    For “bio-labs and the creation of viruses,” was he talking about the likeliest of origins for COVID-19, a “gain of function” true mad scientist experience that escaped the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

    I still believe it is a gross conflict of interest allowing the drug companies do their own testing of something they have spent great amounts of money on, as there is no incentive for them to find anything wrong with their drugs use.

    Oh, it is, but we haven’t figured out a better system. And I for one prefer that the entities that do trials, that’s the company and the committee with the information of who’s in the experimental and control arms, for example vaccine and placebo, are separate from the government agency that regulates all this. And they do have some incentives, getting caught cheating will cost them money. Per a quick skim of the Wikipedia article on Vioxx, $6 billion dollars from Merck. The FDA also can be a very … vindictive organization, shall we say.

    • Replies: @LadyTheo
    , @TheTrumanShow
  45. onebornfree says: • Website

    Virus/vaccine/lockdown/”Great Reset” deniers might enjoy “Whatsherface”‘s satirical take on “The Great Reset”. This young lady [Canadian,I believe], simply “knocks it out of the park”:

    I think I’m in love! 😍

    Regards, onebornfree

  46. @Dumbo

    The vaccines are untested…..and who knows what might be in them…..something deadly….something that causes sterility……something that reduces aggression….or maybe a tracking chip?

    Why do we even NEED a vaccine for a bug that has a death rate of .2%?

    The whole thing is so absurd and outrageous….and it’s disgusting that such a huge percentage of our population has bought into the hysteria.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter, Liza
    • Replies: @LadyTheo
  47. They’ve always wanted a way to control the world population and this is it.

  48. @hillaire

    The virus hasn’t even been isolated.

    That would be news to the Australians, the first outside the PRC to isolate it in late January or very early February. Continuing to copy from a previous reply at iSteve, this misinformation comes from misunderstanding the implications of one detail of the CDC’s initial RT-PCR test:

    Since no quantified virus isolates of the 2019-nCoV are currently available, assays designed for detection of the 2019-nCoV RNA were tested with characterized stocks of in vitro transcribed full length RNA (N gene; GenBank accession: MN908947.2) of known titer (RNA copies/μL) spiked into a diluent consisting of a suspension of human A549 cells and viral transport medium (VTM) to mimic clinical specimen.

    Before any isolations outside the PRC, everyone was able to use sequences of the genetic code of the virus, see the GenBank reference, which started to get published on January 10th. And there’s good reasons to not use an isolate in normal testing, it’s pathogenic, and the larger quantities that would be required for development and manufacturing tests require BSL-3 facilities if you’re using the real thing. Which is one way the FDA prevented anyone else in the US from offering a test prior to the end of February, they insisted tests had to distinguish between SARS-CoV(-01), which died out, MERS-CoV, which has never hit more than 2 people in the US (ME for Middle East, comes from camels), and SARS-CoV-2, the name for the virus that causes COVID-19.

    So the CDC test created before that Australian and subsequent isolations used a reasonable proxy instead, and that’s probably true of every other test manufacturer. Once isolates were available they only had to get a BSL-3 lab to do testing once to confirm their proxy for the purposes of a control is as good as the real thing for the purposes of testing. Two controls BTW, that proxy as a positive, and pure water as a negative, if the former doesn’t register, or the latter does, you know something went wrong somewhere and you throw out that test run, or a bad lot of test supplies.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  49. LadyTheo says:
    @Mustapha Mond

    You really should do a little research.

    BioNTech’s website lays out the process by which they developed the vaccine. Animal testing was done.

    Animals aren’t used in pharma research to determine long-term effects. That would push the launch horizon for most meds out so far that the useful patent life would be too short for medications to be profitable. (As it is, launch nowadays frequently happens with fewer than 10 years’ marketing life.) Additionally, due to pressure from animal rights groups, pharma tries to limit animal exposure. (Beagles. Cute dogs. Used in the past to assess cardiac risk.)

    So no, animal testing was not waived, as you wrongly proclaim.

    I said earlier that I don’t think the severity of this virus warrants a vaccine, but the writing appears to be on the wall about that.

  50. LadyTheo says:
    @Robert Dolan

    Right. A tracking chip. Etc.

    You have been watching too many movies where big, evil pharma is the villain.

    I work for Pfizer. I know the people working on the vaccine. These are not mad scientists intent on nefarious goals. They are men and women of integrity and intelligence.

    Funny how people such as you and other commenters are so quick to paint a group of humans as wicked, corrupt, incompetent, callous, …insert pejorative here… I suspect that in whatever field of endeavor you work or worked, you would have been outraged had others categorically painted you as evil and malign based on…conjecture, speculation, and imagination.

  51. @Dumbo

    It is VERY strange and scary that they are planning to vaccinate BILLIONS of people within such a short time, before risks are assessed.

    Or it would be, if what you claimed was true. While I can’t speak of other country’s plans, the FDA is only proposing to issue Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) as their first action, based on assessing risks with the available data. From participants of all three phases of trials, and the animal studies that for the mRNA vaccines started in parallel with the Phase I trials. For Phase III, the minimum, which is for example holding up Moderna’s EUA application, is two months of data after the second dose for half the vaccine arm participants, so 7,500 people for Moderna, 21,000 for Pfizer/BioNTech. Phase II numbers for Moderna are in the hundreds, Phase I is 15 each at the final dose of 100 mcg, and another at what turned up to be too much at 250 mcg.

    That time period, again just for an EUA, is based on the observation that for vaccines, the vast majority of bad side effects show up in a month and a half. Actual “approval” of any of these vaccines for the general population will take more time, more data from the formal tests, and lots of data from the first millions who under EUA rules get the vaccine.

    You can argue this is an insufficient assessment of the risks, but it’s a blood libel to say they aren’t be assessed at all.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  52. LadyTheo says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Glad to have someone with a sane perspective on here.

    As for companies testing their own products…people do not understand drug development.

    1) Companies routinely jettison loser drugs–only 1 in 10 even makes it to Phase III trials. Clearly, companies find all sorts of “wrong” with the compounds they produce.

    2) Even in Phase III trials, candidate technologies get scrapped. At that point, having sunk almost a billion dollars into the technology, companies have a lot at risk. There is a lot of incentive to weed out the losers long before they get to Phase III.

    3) Phase I/II and III trials are not done in some secret laboratory hidden away from the world. They are done at major universities, for the most part, with physicians, nurses, pharmacists, nursing assistants, etc. who do NOT work for the companies. If a candidate molecule has major issues, the non-pharma people are probably not going to keep their mouths shut. They have no incentive to do so.

    Now–lack of efficacy or poorer-than-reported efficacy can be an issue with trials. That is a separate topic and has to do with psychology, investment of time, fuzzy data, etc.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Anon
  53. @TG

    Indeed the narcolepsy was from a past swine flu vaccine distributed in Sweden.

    But one should remember, these bad effects were due to the drug companies using an ‘adjuvant’ to boost the effectiveness of the vaccine – which pushed many people’s immune systems too hard and they reacted against their own bodies.

    One company, only one of their pandemic flu formulations, and it’s supposition this was the cause. But it’s as good a guess as any, and better than most if narcolepsy is indeed an autoimmune disease, news to me which I’ll be looking into somday.

    Sure, all other things being equal, a vaccine that is 94% effective is better than one that is 84% effective. Unless the way they got that last 10% of effectiveness was to use risky additives to maximize the immune response…

    In this case, I’ll bet you it was to create a cheaper vaccine, requiring less of the very scarce swine flu proteins harvested from chicken egg membranes. The yield from that old process can be as low as 3 doses for just one strain from each egg, and the swine flu pandemic caught these companies outside of their normal two flu seasons a year cadence, they had to move forward a lot of production for the next seasonal flu, while of course increasing overall orders so they’d be able to provide that multi-strain vaccine later, it was a massive effort.

    I think we’re allowed to make guesses about how the monopsony socialized healthcare systems of countries like Sweden responded to that unbudgeted expense…. We can certainly look at how Sweden has responded to COVID-19, although one overriding motivation is said to be their realization of how their new imported friends, especially in the no-go zones, would respond to lock down orders.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  54. @LadyTheo

    Right. A tracking chip. Etc.

    You have been watching too many movies where big, evil pharma is the villain.

    Indeed he has, as well as lacking any knowledge of the electrical engineering that goes into such chips. The bottom line can be found here, “Standard pet microchips are typically 11-13 mm long (approximately ​1⁄2 inch) and 2 mm in diameter.

    Read up on the description of the circuitry outside the actual chip portion of the “microchip,” and look at pictures of them, they require some pretty big components to gather energy transmitted at almost no distance from the reader to power the chip to send back a signal. If the needle someone is using to give you a COVID-19 vaccine shot is not significantly wider than any one used on you before, large grain of rice wide, you have nothing to worry about on this front.

    If you claim otherwise, detail the proposed radio frequency used, power levels required, how the power gets to inside a muscle instead of a subcutaneous region (right under the skin), etc. etc. Also explain how this can be used by those of ill intent, if it’s more subtle that lining up people to scan their chips. For which we already have many technologies, and I still can’t understand how the Right rejects masks when they ruin facial recognition technology schemes.

    • Replies: @The Real World
    , @dimples
    , @Anon
  55. @BuelahMan

    Thank you for exposing Paul Craig Roberts….and I thought his “Putin is our Savior” garbage was bad enough. That he refuses to allow comments on most articles says all anyone needs to know. As well as his notion that most Americans are stupid and most whites will put up with “white guilt” crapola. Maybe he should call himself a “person of color”…. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

    • Agree: BuelahMan
    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
    , @Mefobills
  56. @LadyTheo

    So you work for Pfizer? Well, THAT explains your love of vaccine crapola! Bwahahahahahahahahah!
    Well, you can come out here and try to force a vaccination (chip or not) on me if you so choose…watch out for mountain lions….. Because slaves like you are too cowardly to deal with these fesky felines….

    • Replies: @LadyTheo
  57. onebornfree says: • Website
    @LadyTheo

    “I work for Pfizer. I know the people working on the vaccine. These are not mad scientists intent on nefarious goals. They are men and women of integrity and intelligence.”

    No, they’re useful idiots at best, [as are you] assuming they/you don’t know what’s really going on here.

    Besides which: “Former Pfizer Chief Scientist claims Covid-19 pandemic effectively over, no need for any vaccine”: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/science/former-pfizer-chief-claims-covid-19-pandemic-effectively-over-no-need-for-any-vaccine/article33198549.ece

    “Regards” onebornfree

  58. Not interested in this article OR the comments as the assumptions begin in the headline. After helping people with “miraculous” recoveries from several “modern” illness, I have come to the conclusion that the “germ and bacteria theories” are FULL of BULLPUNKY. Theories they can not PROVE exist or act let alone “cure” with a vaccine. A dear friend of mine is a world famous Dr. from NYC. He “cured” AIDS patients and wrote 2 books about it. He dropped his AMA license to practice due to the lies we are told and his discoveries would make you shake your head in disbelief at first. And if you believe him… I DO…it makes this entire narrative about a virus NONSENSE at the least, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY at the worst… I lean toward the latter…

  59. @LadyTheo

    Bullshit.

    First of all, the virus is NOT dangerous to MOST people. A TINY segment of the population is at risk….80 year olds that have lived out their life expectancy and have one foot in the grave already.

    So….by all means give the vaccine to the fearful and the old. Nobody else NEEDS it.

    The normal testing time for a vaccine is TEN YEARS. So you are not able to assess the long term effects of the vaccines.

    In fact…you don’t have any fucking CLUE about what an untested vaccine could do to people.

    The swine flu vaccine was rushed and it did massive harm.

    Also…you cannot explain away the insane idea that the vaccine will be MANDATORY….and they plan to punish people if they refuse to take it. They will likely target work, school, banking, travel…
    if this vaccine is such a GREAT thing then why do you need police state enforcement and coercion?

  60. onebornfree says: • Website
    @LadyTheo

    “I work for Pfizer”

    See: The “Our Latest Covid-19 Vaccine Is Effective”, Scam:

    “Pfizer recently announced that its covid vaccine was more than 90 percent “effective”at preventing covid-19………..Hidden toward the end of both announcements, were the definitions of “effective.”
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2020/11/onebornfrees-special-scam-alerts-no158.html

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  61. @omegabooks

    Most Americans ARE stupid and they DO put up with the white guilt crapola.

    If they didn’t put up with it it wouldn’t EXIST.

    By the way….PCR has an IQ that is at least 40 points above yours….and he served in our government for many years.

    What have YOU done…..bitch?

    • Replies: @BuelahMan
  62. @Robert Dolan

    The normal development time for a vaccine is TEN YEARS.

    Fixed it for you. As someone in the field detailed, a great deal of the time is taken up in writing grant proposals, waiting for award decisions, and onlly doing work on the vaccine when they get some money. Real world FDA Phase I through III testing come at the end of this process, and the FDA most certainly does not demand ten years of safety data from this formal testing before approving a new drug or vaccine. For one thing, by then they would be off patent, and without profits, drug companies can’t spend the billions of dollars needed to bring a drug to market, and to pay for all the expensive failures along the way (although this is less true for less easily copied biologics like vaccines).

    For another, once they just there is “enough” safety data, it is unethical to demand more; we’ll see that in effect soon once we have enough COVID-19 vaccines that are judged to be safe and effective, new ones will require the control arm to use an existing vaccine, for the purposes of finding out how good they are compared to that. Finally, while these mRNA vaccine trials have “a lot” of people, roughly as many as you have in any trial, they don’t have nearly enough to find the one in 100,000, one in a million etc. problems, that generally requires them being tried out on the general population.

    Can you provide some citations where the FDA demanded ten years of testing, of safety data starting with Phase I trials (which don’t even have to be reported to the FDA)?

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
  63. @Low Voltage

    I do not know but I could ask my grand son who is studying microbiology.
    I did look in electronic microscope once but that was not about viruses.
    So I could only guess. Lack of oxygen probably does not kill the virus instantly.
    So the shape of living virus is different from shape of dead virus.

    • Replies: @Rocha
  64. @onebornfree

    the major clinical trials of the vaccine are not designed to prevent serious cases of COVID. Instead, they are structured to prevent minor COVID chills and fever, or a cough.

    This is a blatant lie you’re quoting, from someone who doesn’t expect their readers to actually look up the test protocols these companies are using. See page 11 of Moderna’s, where they define with some precision what counts as a “severe” case in their Phase III trial.

  65. Escher says:

    Eat healthy, avoid crowds, get enough exercise and sleep, and limit time on unz.com to 2 hours per day.
    You should be fine.

    • Agree: Liza, antitermite, WHAT
  66. Mark G. says:

    By the time a vaccine is widely available the number of cases may very well be starting to decline. The decline in cases will then be attributed mostly to people getting vaccinated and many people in low risk categories will be pressured into getting vaccinated themselves even though by that point it may not be needed.

    You see the same thing with mask mandates where the mask mandate is given as a cause for declining cases. For example, North Dakota instituted a mask mandate around November 11th and the number of new cases has been declining since then. Mask proponents point to things like this as proof of the efficacy of mask wearing. The only problem is that in this case the governor of South Dakota didn’t cave into pressure like the governor of North Dakota did and mandate masks. Cases have been declining at about the same rate in non-mask wearing South Dakota as in mask wearing North Dakota. Since the start of this epidemic it has been difficult to make comparisons between the effectiveness of various restrictions since the mainstream media and high level government officials have all been demanding that every place does the same thing at the same time.

    • Agree: Peripatetic Itch
    • Replies: @antitermite
  67. Bek says:
    @Franz

    A few years ago for 3 years concurrently I received the flu vaccine due to being sick and going thru treatment…long story.
    But the 3 years I had the flu vaccine all 3 years I copped serious bouts of the flu putting me in hospital on multiple occasions each year.
    The second and third years I ended up so bloody sick I was admitted to ICU for pneumonia and double pneumonia.
    The third year I had 3 ICU admissions with over 5 weeks in total time being in ICU alone with up to 5..7 days on a regular ward afterwards.
    Havent had the flu vaccine since because it honestly didnt help me at all…and guess what havent had a case of flu since either.
    Wont be having this toxic drug concoction either..cant call it a vaccine if doesnt prevent you getting the disease

    • Replies: @The Real World
    , @Franz
    , @Vojkan
  68. Ghali says:

    I hope Mike means “Vaccines” that are developed/developing in the West Big Pharmas.

    • Agree: WHAT
  69. Getaclue says:
    @LadyTheo

    I’ve seen photos of the woman from the “Trial” covered in blisters and her feet ROTTING OFF! She had a Gofundme page because she can’t work — the NWO Corporate Creeps took it down – – it was getting too much attention — better she just die than interfere in the NWO Satanic Agenda to “help” us all by vaccination….–

    There are many, many with bad side effects — don’t agree with your comment downplaying same….– I used to be in litigation and am very familiar with Big Pharma — they engage in what is really criminal conduct and at times get nailed in Civil Suits (the few they can’t escape by the fact they are given a pass as to Liability as in vaccines by the corrupt Congress….) — they then pay out some millions of dollars and get a “Secrecy Agreement” — no one gets to know….–

    They own Congress — they are on the Mafia level of organized crime but granted a “Free Pass” card due to bribery….Anyone getting this “vaccine” which puts RNA into you and changes your DNA, for a CVirus where over 99% recover, is a flaming fool and almost deserving of what they are going to get, almost….

  70. @onebornfree

    She’s very entertaining and very funny.

    Conservative organs always trot out the sex kittens. Look at Fox News. (Notice the ugliness of MSNBC. MSNBC lies just as much, but they want you to think they’re sincere, so they thrust ugliness at you. Conservatives are more simple-minded. Hot chicks persuade good because they’re hot chicks.)

    You think she just makes this stuff up on her own? Just sits in front of her computer and talks?

    Sorry. She’s backed by big money, and, just like the type commentators she positions herself as totally opposing, she says what she is told. What is written for her.

    Like I like how the biggest danger of masks and global warming is socialism. Interesting.

    She appeals to your prejudices and then stuffs in the moral to the story–oppose socialism. Even though socialism would make your life better. That is, real socialism, not some fake thing they call socialism in order to sucker us some more.

  71. WHAT says:

    Just take the Sputnik-V, lol. The worst collateral damage it could give you is a bad cold, along with antibodies through the roof. Perks of being made by a state organization and not for profit.

  72. @Bek

    That all sounds horrible. I’ve heard other people say they got the flu fairly quickly after getting a flu vaccine. I’ve never had one and definitely had suspicions a few years back when they started being touted FOR FREE at pharmacies. Hello?

    There was a strange story a couple years ago about a CDC Doc in Atlanta who had gone missing and was found dead 2 months later. It was deemed a suicide but, that sounded sketchy for several reasons.

    There was some internet rumor back then (I have zero idea about any validity to it) that he had discovered that flu vaccines GIVE people the flu. Here’s one article: https://time.com/5177454/timothy-cunningham-cdc-missing-found/

    If it interests you, search his name, there are others.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  73. utu says:

    Ron Unz, we were free from Mike Whitney demagoguery for 60 days. I thought that he took a refuge in his covid paradise Sweden or hoped that finally you made a wise decision to no longer promulgate disinformation from that shameless propagandist and demagogue. Unfortunately he is again here.

    His article disseminates the disinformation from British anti-vaxxer, anti-covid group UK Medical Freedom Alliance (UKMFA) and from one article in Russia Today that is poo-pooing mRNA vaccines because Russia does not happen to have one.

    UKMFA (www.ukmedfreedom.org/about) seems to be a group of seven individuals including one dentist, a lawyer, an aluminum expert, a nursing academic and a holistic physician who does not like masks and lockdowns and I thought that masks and lockdowns would be considered holistic. They offer templates of letters you can sign and send:

    https://www.ukmedfreedom.org/resources/template-letters
    “Useful template letters from legal campaign group Rational Global for employees wanting to challenge face-masks requirements at work”

    “Useful template letters from children’s rights campaign group Us For Them regarding facemask requirements and other restrictions placed on children in schools”

    I really do not see what purpose does it serve to give a greater platform to Mike Whitney so he can broadcast his shameless demagoguery. All his articles on covid were wrong. He contributed to confusion and reinforced the feeble minded in their deranged beliefs that in general weakened the ability of our society to respond effectively to the pandemic. You are a part of the problem, Ron Unz. On one hand you get all ecstatic about how great China’s response to covid was but on the other hand you contribute to everything what is wrong with the response in America. Do you wish America ill?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Tor597
    , @geokat62
    , @Alden
  74. @That Would Be Telling

    I still can’t understand how the Right rejects masks when they ruin facial recognition technology schemes.

    Hate the fuggin things because I like OXYGEN and for the world to enjoy my pretty face.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  75. @Mark G.

    It seems that the number of positive cases can be tweaked simply by adjusting how the tests are run:

    https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=216492

    Other tricks can be as simple as adjusting the symptom parameters to define a COVID diagnosis.

    The implications being that after the vaccines are rolled out, we will see a miraculous decline in cases.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  76. Rocha says:

    Viruses are dead organic matter. They have no nucleus, or mitochondria. They cannot replicate themselves or respire, therefore they cannot be weaponised. So Bill Gates loses his power. The poisons are in the vaccines.
    The inventor of the PCR test, Kary Mullis, said that it was not a diagnostic tool and fought against its use to identify another supposed viral infection which exhibited a comprehensive list of symptoms, the AIDS virus. He warned against virus hysteria and was highly sceptical of their existence.
    They cannot be distinguished from exosomes or any other bits of genetic material in the body.

    The so-called identification of viruses is as scientific as reading tea leaves and just as credible. They produce pretty graphics that’s all.

    • Agree: John Wear
    • Thanks: Agent76
  77. In sum: this is a massive experiment conducted by the “medical community” – spearheaded by Gates – to open up a new niche for immediate exploitation, consequences be damned.

    And we thought Big Oil was nefarious.

    • Agree: John Wear
  78. Franz says:
    @Bek

    Yep. My last time with a flu vaccination put me on my back for almost three days, and feverish and foggy for another two weeks.

    I was lucky, I had an old-time general practitioner who was totally honest with me. He told me that at best the vaccine gives you a slight edge, most time it does nothing, and for anyone much over 40 it’s worthless because if you’re in shape your odds are as good as when you were younger, if you’re not it really won’t help. Basically your odds are even with or without. He had over 50 years medical experience and knew what he was talking about.

    The shingles shot the FDA was fool enough to approve has an incredible 10% bad reaction rate, including death. But they never tell anyone that.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  79. dimples says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    There’s no need to put chips in people surreptitiously, they carry one around all day while diddling on it with their fingers. If the elites want more bandwidth, soon early technology adopters will be clamouring to get one inserted, quickly followed by the masses when they find that it makes accessing Fakebook easier.

  80. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    At this point, it is clear that one must be guarded about information coming from U.S. regulatory agencies, pharma, journals, medical faculty, practicing physicians, and journalists. One can believe Taiwan, S. Korea, Norway, and Russia. As for the last (not “the latter”), I admit I might be prejudiced because, when I am playing online chess and lose a game, a Russian says “good game” whereas an American says “LOL”; apparently a cultural difference.

    • LOL: Clay Alexander
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  81. GMC says:

    There are a lot more bioweapon viruses and bacterial infections – being spread out there – the nasty sinus infection that takes out your taste and smell senses are just one. The Coronavirus scam, is a perfect time to spread more shit on the peasants and cover it with the Covid 19 shuffle. The Big Pharma /US labs are the most evil , we will ever see. Who owns the PCR test ? – Hoffman La Roche bought it for 300 million and has made over 2 billion on it. Who killed Kari Mullis, the developer of the test – 4 mos. before the outbreak in Wuhan ? Russia is surrounded with these big pharma/US labs, yet they won’t take them out , which could mean that they are not concerned about 1/2% of the people dying and they will make money on their vaccine or they are ……..

  82. GeeBee says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    …that would likely fail because the hijacked cells are going to come to an ugly end one way or another, nothing hiding them from the immune system like HIV does.

    This is off topic, but it is clear that you know your subject well, and your throwaway remark regarding HIV’s mode of action reminded me that I find myself puzzled right now, after reading Prof. Peter Duesberg’s take on HIV and its relationship to AIDS. Essentially, he believes that there is no relationship; that HIV does not cause AIDS at all, but is a harmless passenger virus:

    https://duesberg.com/papers/pddrgenetica.html

    Duesberg was also one of the first virologists to point out that ‘Big Pharma’ had been compromised by the lust for profit, and that as a result, medical science itself had in turn gradually become equally compromised, and indeed treacherous in its ethos, having been ‘bought’ by Big Pharma.

    I’d really appreciate your own ‘expert opinion’ if you’d be so kind.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  83. JL says:
    @LadyTheo

    I suspect that in whatever field of endeavor you work or worked, you would have been outraged had others categorically painted you as evil and malign based on…conjecture, speculation, and imagination.

    LOL, no. Having worked in finance for over a decade, I can say that the actual situation is much worse than the conjecture and speculation from outsiders. What’s even scarier, I had a colleague who worked for years in big pharma, and he said finance is full of angels by comparison. I recommend honesty, both with yourself and others, it goes a long way.

    • Agree: frontier
  84. I’m ready to receive the COVID cure immediately. I’m wearing a mask, sometimes multiple N-95 masks all day and night. I stay 12 feet away from other people and 10 feet away from any animal. I use special ultra violet light sources to disinfect my food and water. I wash my hands constantly using a mixture of bleach and gasoline (60/40%). I only leave my small apartment at night, when the virus is less contagious.

    I very much want to be free of these special precautions. But without the vaccine, it’s just too dangerous. I’m confident that President Biden, with the help of Bill Gates, will end this dark winter and bring us the vaccine that we all crave.

  85. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:
    @LadyTheo

    “I work for Pfizer”

    Everything you’ve posted on here is a lie. Fuck you and the company you work for.

  86. Vojkan says:
    @Bek

    Some 10-15 years ago (I don’t remember exactly), my mother took the anti-flu vaccine two consecutive years and got the flu two consecutive years. Enough for her decide to never be vaccinated again and she never had the flu since.
    I never got vaccinated against the flu and I haven’t had the flu since my teenage years. I have no definite opinion of the Russian vaccine but I know that between a travel ban and injecting any Western lab produced crap into my body, I’ll opt for the travel ban.

  87. Mike265 says:

    In the world of genetics there is a relatively new area called Epigenetics.

    Basically harmful substances we come into contact with leave tags on our DNA that are passed down to our children & grandchildren.

    They are only starting to discover stuff that baby boomers were using decades ago is causing autism in their grandchildren.

    This video an expert explains how all this works. It could be decades before the health cost of injecting most of the world’s population is seen.

    • Replies: @Iva
    , @Ben the Layabout
  88. USA 13,383,321 and 266873 Sweden 243,129 and 6,681 BUT Norway 35,828 and 328 and Finland 24,629 and 393 ——-best comes Cuba at 8,233 and 134 ???

  89. HorstG says:

    Forbes: Vaccine “effectiveness” is not measured in terms of “preventing infection”. It relates to the vaccine’s impact on symptoms.

    Sounds complicated to make a study like this. Indeed it is, as far as I know vaccines are evaluated by looking at effects of the vaccination in blood samples.
    For ethic reasons, no one would infect people with a gruesome illness for a study.

    Vaccines are made and optimized for evaluation in a lab. That is why they put the boosters in.
    And the 95% claim seems to be of that tier too to me.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  90. @That Would Be Telling

    Why such a narrow response?

    You (and LadyTheo) have posted a lot in this thread. But nothing much about, to stick to Robert Dolan’s #61, these broader concerns and objections:

    [1] First of all, the virus is NOT dangerous to MOST people. A TINY segment of the population is at risk.

    [2] The swine flu vaccine was rushed and it did massive harm.

    [3] Also…you cannot explain away the insane idea that the vaccine will be MANDATORY….and they plan to punish people if they refuse to take it. They will likely target work, school, banking, travel…if this vaccine is such a GREAT thing then why do you need police state enforcement and coercion?

    I claim no expertise, but have learned from the Cholesterol, Swine Flu, AIDS, and other such Scares that Establishment health authorities in this country can’t be relied upon. To me, these are three fair points more important than the one you focused on. You should address them if you want to convince the skeptics.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  91. NomadDad says:

    And to think both Zion Don and sleepy Joe have a plan to roll out this bathwater very very soon.

    DON’T TAKE THE JAB.

    • Agree: GMC
  92. @Notsofast

    untested “vaccines” hurried to market in a 21st century gold rush for big pharma

    It’s called expedited approval. Expedited approval is only permitted when no effective alternative therapies exist. If the effectiveness of therapies such as Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin or even Vitamin D had been acknowledged, the vaccines would have have to undergo much more rigorous approval requirements and the ultimate approval could not have been expected for some years. Enormous profits were at stake, as you say.

    Those effective therapies were off-patent and unable to generate such profits. So the therapies themselves had to be demonized or suppressed. The effectiveness of Ivermectin and vitamin D, among others, was suppressed. Hydroxychloroquine was demonized by a campaign of vituperation, including the complete fabrication of a so-called study of 96,000 patients from five continents by a fly-by-night company called Surgisphere, whose existence was scrubbed from the internet after the scam was exposed. The study was published and then retracted by one of the leading medical journals of the world in a scandal that should have destroyed it. The Lancet got off rather lightly, however, promising to improve its editorial practices.

    President Trump was, meanwhile, put on notice that he could be destroyed if he continued to endorse it.

    • Agree: frontier
    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Replies: @follyofwar
  93. @LadyTheo

    your rancor should be directed towards those who have brainwashed hundreds of millions of people into believing that a case of corona virus is akin to being bitten by a rabid dog.

    No doubt. But perhaps you should also understand that the 24/7 fear porn we have all been subjected to for the past 11 months is all part of a coordinated plot — a conspiracy including the WHO, the NWO, big pharma, the big media and the American coup plotters at a minimum. All of them working towards the so-called Great Reset, in which we will all be good little boys and girls and do exactly as we are told.

    We are all mere playthings in their hands.

  94. Vojkan says:
    @LadyTheo

    It is interesting that whenever people like you are confronted with logical arguments, they don’t answer with logical counter-arguments, they resort to pilpul or try to shift the discussion with gaslighting.
    The thing with gaslighting, as in your comment, is that it works on not too clever people but it doesn’t on clever people. So when clever people like you use it to sway an audience, it means that they are moral shit. If I applied your line of reasoning, I would deduce that your colleagues have no more moral worth than you have but I don’t know them and I will make no assumption in that regard.
    All I know is that Big Pharma’s record doesn’t plead in its favour. I don’t trust proven liars.

  95. Piglet says:
    @Franz

    The last time I had a flu shot was in the mid-90s when I didn’t know better. Not only did I get the flu later, I got sick twice, and the second time was worse than the first. I could hardly get out of bed to go to the bathroom. I never got a flu shot again and I’ve not had the flu since then.

    In January 1996 my father received a flu shot and within days was admitted to the hospital. On the second night he suffered a type of seizure that left him in a coma. After about a month like that the doctors said he was brain dead and would never awaken. In accordance with his wishes that he had made known to us years ahead of time, we brought him home. The damage done to him had destroyed his kidneys so he died after five days.

    In retrospect I strongly suspect the hospital knew right away that he had been left brain dead but they kept us unaware so it would give them time to remove any indication of what had killed him (at one point they filled him with liquids, massively bloating him, then drained him, leaving him shriveled), plus it would allow them to massively run up the bill. At the time I didn’t know what had caused his illness and only learned years later that he had just received a flu shot.

    After his death a nurse said the doctor had said there would be no autopsy (which might have revealed what happened, and we can’t allow anything negative to come out about flu vaccines, can we?). Later the doctor claimed she didn’t say that, but I don’t believe her.

    You can see why I don’t get flu shots and I no longer have complete faith in doctors, nor will I let anyone touch me with this latest scam vaccine.

    • Thanks: John Q Duped
    • Replies: @Garliv
    , @Adam Smith
    , @Franz
  96. TKK says:
    @Robert Dolan

    There’s a steady new stream that the travel industry, focus on airlines, are going to require a new vaccine passport to be able to travel- proof you have taken it before you can move around the world.

    Sinister.

    Carefree days of hopping a flight to an adventure are over.

  97. Garliv says:

    It’s getting obvious that most people will be coerced to take this shit. I have read that International airlines will start demanding proof of vaccination before boarding. Then you have some corporations who seem eager to vaccinate their employees.
    How on earth did the world reach a point whereby facts and rationale no longer matter but only what hysterical corrupt media and their sponsor say!? There need to be mass protests of these measures especially in the West (Europe and North America) if the current trend is to be checked.

  98. Garliv says:
    @Piglet

    This is truly sad. Very sad. I have recently followed Robert F. Kennedy Jr who has been campaigning against the idea that vaccine makers bears no legal responsibility or otherwise should their product turn harmful. Your story is heartrending.
    Peace.

  99. @Getaclue

    this “vaccine” which puts RNA into you and changes your DNA

    That’s one thing it can’t do. The fundamental paradigm of molecular genetics is DNA -> RNA -> proteins. To go in the reverse direction you need a hack, like retroviruses’ reverse transcriptase.

    Any mRNA or live virus vaccine is going to be putting RNA or DNA into some of your cells, to mimic as closely as possible the virus it’s vaccinating you against. That provides a full immune system response, generally a better one than “killed” AKA inactivated virus vaccines like the Salk type for polio which only protects you from the effects of the standard polio gut infection, doesn’t prevent it or prevent you from giving it to others, or ones with only some of the virus’ proteins, like for the flu. Examples today include the ones for measles, mumps, rubella (German measles), and varicella (chickenpox), you really want to prevent the latter herpes virus from ever getting a foothold in your body to avoid shingles decades later. If you’re too old for that, and 50 or older, get the newer recombinant vaccine against shingles.

    Note also getting the wild type virus puts a lot more RNA into massively more of your cells, coding for all of its proteins, not just the stabilized mRNA vaccine spike one. If this were a legitimate fear, you should prefer the vaccine to the whole virus.

    • Replies: @frontier
  100. @That Would Be Telling

    The virus hasn’t even been isolated.

    That would be news to the Australians, the first outside the PRC to isolate it in late January or very early February.

    So I clicked on your link, which I had perused before, and scrolled down to their electron microscope figures, which purport to show the claimed isolation (their Box 5). In that photograph, I see other structures besides the alleged coronavirus, a situation that did not purport with the definition of isolation I normally accept. On searching the article, I found no definition of the word, no explication of their methods of isolation and little more than the following statement relating to a cell line they had inoculated with specimen material from a patient:

    Electron micrographs of the negatively stained supernatant showed spherical and pleomorphic virus‐like particles of 90–110 nm diameter; the particles displayed prominent spikes (9–12 nm), characteristic of viruses from the family Coronaviridae (Box 5, A).

    I also looked in vain for any indication that the researchers had taken those virus-like particles they mentioned and used them to infect an experimental animal or other human. Having read many thousands of medical-research papers, I can not say I was particularly impressed with this one. Has it even been replicated?

    So perhaps the difference in opinion between you and the scientists @hillaire relies on is really one of differences in definition. Perhaps you would comment and explain why some steps considered necessary, by at least some researchers, were not needed in this case.

    • Agree: John Wear
  101. @Franz

    The shingles shot the FDA was fool enough to approve has an incredible 10% bad reaction rate, including death. But they never tell anyone that.

    The original one which was a 4X dose of the live virus vaccine against chicken pox for the young? Or the newer recombinant one that’s a lot more effective? Either has to create enough of an immune system response to wack any of this herpes virus species that’s hiding out in your nervous system cells before they get out of hand as they reactivate.

    Note also the FDA had to weight the risks of the vaccine against getting shingles, and what can be very bad outcomes of it like years of pain and death, for many avoiding one of these vaccines is not a free move. As someone who’s already had shingles, the only time I’ve filled an opiate prescription in my adult life, I can assure you it’s an extremely nasty thing.

    • Replies: @Glaucon
    , @theMann
    , @Franz
  102. @LadyTheo

    So no, animal testing was not waived, as you wrongly proclaim.

    Typical Pfizer troll.

    Animals aren’t used in pharma research to determine long-term effects. That would push the launch horizon for most meds out so far that the useful patent life would be too short for medications to be profitable.

    How transparently evil can you get?

    • Agree: TKK, Hootsman
    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @LadyTheo
  103. @That Would Be Telling

    the vast majority of bad side effects show up in a month and a half.

    That’s an empirical claim without any empirical observations to back it up. The observations you need are not even out there waiting for someone to find the link. There don’t exist even in theory, because not enough time has elapsed. You are simply bullshitting.

    Real empirical studies have suggested that some existing vaccines have increased susceptibility to other related or unrelated infections. Such effects won’t be noticed until that infection comes along some time in the near or far future and starts attacking people.

    Most interesting that you are invoking (((blood libel))).

  104. @Peripatetic Itch

    What did the President gain by his rush to get the vaccine approved before the election?

    He gained nothing from the millions of Americans who hate him. They were not about to take a rushed dangerous vaccine that had Trump’s name on it. Just ask Kamala Harris, who said she wouldn’t take it. It gained him zero votes among these people.

    And what did he gain by pushing it on his base? Most of them don’t trust anything the government tells them, even if it comes from their hero. Who was excited to be force injected by the military? Trump’s promoting this obscene vaccine cost him more votes than it gained him.

    He should have stuck with promoting Hcq and Zinc as cures. Trump was rolled by the sinister democrat operative Anthony Fauci. We are under Medical Martial Law, which does not have to prove anything they tell us – witness these ghouls pushing oxygen-depriving filthy masks onto everyone. Differing opinions are silenced.

    BTW, did you hear that the seasonal flu has just about disappeared this year? Very curious, indeed.

  105. @BuelahMan

    If I’m not mistaken. Paul Craig Roberts believes in “The Virus”. That … it exists.

    • Agree: BuelahMan
  106. @HorstG

    Forbes: Vaccine “effectiveness” is not measured in terms of “preventing infection”. It relates to the vaccine’s impact on symptoms.

    Sounds complicated to make a study like this. Indeed it is, as far as I know vaccines are evaluated by looking at effects of the vaccination in blood samples.

    It would be complicated, which is why it’s not the main “endpoint” for the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna trials, symptomatic COVID-19 infections are. Although Moderna is also looking for cases for which it defines as severe (see page 11, see more for all the details of what they’re doing and looking for, and Pfizer/BioNTech has also published their Phase III protocol).

    The blood AKA serological tests you refer to are proxies, or in medical trial speak can be a “surrogate endpoint,” and a very handy one for Phase I and II trials concerned with dosing where there simply aren’t enough patients for you to count on any getting COVID-19 as a real endpoint. For example, Moderna had 45 participants in their Phase I trial of 3 different dosages, 25, 100, and 250 mcg, a very wide order of magnitude range. Phase II was on hundreds of patients with 50 and 100 mcg, and the serological data from both resulted in Phase III using 100 mcg.

    For ethic reasons, no one would infect people with a gruesome illness for a study.

    People have been talking about that, and some perhaps ethically challenged Dutchmen are proposing to do it. That is of course a gold standard in testing.

    Vaccines are made and optimized for evaluation in a lab.

    Only at the very beginning. Starting with Phase I trials they’re tested on real humans with real lives outside labs (250 mcg of Moderna’s was way too much, all the subjects suffered, but according to one participant it was of the “see urgent care tomorrow” level). For the Phase III trials that have to prove efficacy, to among other things demonstrate a favorable risk/reward trade off, for COVID-19 the FDA’s minimum is 30,000 people, half the experimental, vaccine “arm,” half the control, which for the 2 mRNA trials has been saline solution.

    Then you wait until enough people come down with symptomatic COVID-19, and for these trials, wait some more until you have two months of safety data from 1/2 of the vaccine arm. That length of time based on the observation that the vast majority of bad side effects happen within a month and a half. Then you can apply for an Emergency Use Authorization, Moderna did today, Pfizer/BioNTech on the 20th, and that’s only good for using it on limited populations, more data is required for a real FDA “approval” for general populations.

    I also read a few minutes ago Moderna is going to be doing testing of those under 18, which I assume in the context of COVID-19 isn’t ethical until you’re pretty sure it’s safe for adults. Plus of course given that these mRNA vaccines simulate as much as they can a real infection, except for only producing a stabilized spike protein, it’s a reasonable assumption they’ll be safe for children.

    That is why they put the boosters in.

    Adjuvants, and they’re included for a variety of reasons, they can for example be used to stretch out a shortage of supplies of the needed antigen, which is what I suspect happened with the Swedish and other nations’ narcolepsy issue. I’ve read one of the mRNA’s vaccine’s lipid protection is slightly tweaked for a better immune system response.

    And the 95% claim seems to be of that tier too to me.

    Taking it out to 3 digits struck me as unlikely to be accurate, and if we care, we should either inquire about the size of their error bars, or do the math ourselves, we’ve been provided with all the numbers. Although they steadily get more COVID-19 cases meaning the final percentage is firming up. I’ve also noted it seems like 95% is around the best you get for a vaccine, and there’s no reason to believe these vaccines won’t be as effective as previous ones.

  107. Take Vitamin D, and be done with it. From what I have read, even if you catch it, the Vitamin D will make more like a cold. Also read Melania Trump took high dosage of Vitamin D. Definitely avoid the vaccine if you can. Let the sheeple and science worshipers take it first out of kindness. It is truly the least we wrong thinkers can do to fight the worse flu ever that only kills less than 1%. That percentage is assuming the hospitals and doctors aren’t cooking the numbers for increase federal money. Scientists would never, ever do such a scam because they work with facts financed by folks with an agenda. Pure as baby aborted.

    Also did anyone else read that Pfizer has been working on this Covid vaccine for six years? Wish I saved the article so I could consider the source.

  108. 95% of Covid-19 deaths globally are in people over age 60. The median age of death from Covid-19 is 80. As a disease, this is an old people’s malady like Alzheimer’s. The elderly are not the majority of the people receiving the vaccines in trials. Children are largely unaffected and do not spread Covid-19, yet some are added into vaccine trials. This is unethical!

    As Asia showed, keeping the infected and the virus out of their countries was the best solution (combined with chasing down, testing, tracking and quarantining the few who got in.) Of course the WHO and Fauci-types said travel bans were “counterproductive”. Guess it depends on your goals?

    The are a number of nutrients (often deficient in the elderly– vitamins, Zn, Mg, selenium, etc) easy to correct in the elderly. There are many drugs, although not approved by the FDA for Covid-19, such as glucocorticoids and heparin for serious cases, ivermectin (approved in Peru and Bolivia), hydroxychloroquine (approved in India and other poor countries with much lower death rates for preventative use), fluvoxamine, famotidine, etc which may work better in combination (which the FDA ignores). The only small molecule drug approved by the FDA for Covid-19 is expensive remdesivir (which the WHO has shown does not work).

    Coronavirus experts have stated that antibodies are not a big part of the immune response to coronaviruses; there is probably a good reason for that (memory T cells seem to produce long-term, partial immunity). The novel vaccines are dependent on eliciting an antibody response (which happens with just about any protein injected if done with correct adjuvants). Seems misguided? Plus for the elderly, the lethal target of the disease, much higher doses are needed for flu vaccinations.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  109. FoSquare says:
    @onebornfree

    Great video! The thing the Globalists fear the most is to become the subject of laughter and derision. After all, once their reputations have been ruined, what do they have left?

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  110. @LadyTheo

    They are men and women of integrity and intelligence.

    It’s not the people in the lab that are worrisome, it’s the people in the boardroom.

    • Agree: antitermite
  111. Anyone who takes the vaccine is a fool, the vaccines contain material that changes a persons DNA forever, please go to davidicke.com and under the latest videos click on the headline fromer FEMA operative Celeste Solum talks with David, she lays it all out what the vaccines contain and why you should never take it.

  112. @Peripatetic Itch

    Perhaps you would comment and explain why some steps considered necessary, by at least some researchers, were not needed in this case.

    I would say not so much “not needed,” as “cannot be done outside a BSL-3 lab,” which has been a frequent roadblock for a lot of COVID-19 research, as well as allowed the FDA to slow down anyone other than CDC who was trying to get EUA approval for a test through the end of February. They insisted others’ tests be able to distinguish between SARS-CoV-2, SARS-CoV(-1), which died out, and MERS-CoV, the ME standing for Middle East, it has a camel reservoir, the US had only seen two cases of it.

    Basically, if you’re going to grow it in cell culture, isolate that in flasks and such, you’re creating significant quantities, you very much don’t want it infecting you and others in your lab, let alone escaping your lab. See the two “oops” cases of the latter in the PRC and the U.K., or the last known death from smallpox, also in the U.K. We’re pretty sure H1N1 came back into worldwide circulation in 1976-7 after being displaced by the Asian flus of the late 1950s and 1960s due to a PRC or USSR lab leak, and a lot of us think the highest probable source of COVID-19 is a leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology of a “gain of function” true mad scientist experiment, research so dangerous it’s been banned twice in the US. So Saint Fauci among others farmed out such research to the PRC….

    BUT, since everyone is pointing to that one sentence in the CDC’s test protocol, let’s see where the CDC is today, or back then, “SARS-CoV-2 Viral Culturing at CDC“:

    SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, was isolated in the laboratory and is available for research by the scientific and medical community.

    One important way that CDC has supported global efforts to study and learn about SARS-CoV-2 in the laboratory was by growing the virus in cell culture and ensuring that it was widely available. Researchers in the scientific and medical community can use virus obtained from this work in their studies.

    [big snip, no one reading this will qualify for getting a sample….]

    Timeline:

    * On January 20, 2020, CDC received a clinical specimen collected from the first reported U.S. patient infected with SARS-CoV-2. CDC immediately placed the specimen into cell culture to grow a sufficient amount of virus for study.
    * On February 2, 2020, CDC generated enough SARS-CoV-2 grown in cell culture to distribute to medical and scientific researchers.
    * On February 4, 2020, CDC shipped SARS-CoV-2 to the BEI Resources Repository.
    * An article discussing the isolation and characterization of this virus specimen is available in Emerging Infectious Diseases.

    It never ceases to amaze me that people making extreme claims like “SARS-CoV-2 has never been isolated” fail to do trivial searches like this Bing one to see if it’s been falsified since that one CDC sentence from January they cling so bitterly to. The above CDC link was the first that came up for me.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
    , @skrik
  113. Mefobills says:
    @omegabooks

    Thank you for exposing Paul Craig Roberts….and I thought his “Putin is our Savior” garbage was bad enough.

    PCR was punked by the coronavirus hysteria at first, like most people. He has since learned and adjusted.

    The coronavirus could have been created in a gain of function lab, with who knows what grafted into it. As it stands now, we still don’t know if the virus was GOF, and if it merely petered out as it mutated. In the beginning there were two coronavirus variants, one was much more infectious than the other.

    With regards to Putin, he did kick out the (((Oligarchs))) and Russia is much better off now, than in the 90’s.

    That he refuses to allow comments on most articles says all anyone needs to know.

    Because many of the commentators are stupid, or ignorant.

    As well as his notion that most Americans are stupid and most whites will put up with “white guilt” crapola.

    White people do suffer from pathological altruism. It is an evolutionary adaptation left over from the fourth ice ages. Other ice people, like north east asians, adapted with shame cultures. White people = guilt; North East Asians = Shame

    If whites are going to survive, then their guilty heart has to be overcome with education. PCR provides that education.

    Why do you feel guilty about negroes or jews? Why do you feel guilty about every little thing that the Jew media tells you to feel guilty about?

    Why do you feel guilty about protecting your neighbor, so you have to take the jab? When really the jab is all about YOUR health. (Don’t take it because of the risks to YOUR health.)

    People want a savior, that is another false logical construct. PCR is not your perfect savior. You can only save yourself. Most humans, including PCR, are not perfect. PCR got punked… so what? He has since adjusted as new info was made available.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
    , @BuelahMan
  114. @Just another serf

    I wash my hands constantly using a mixture of bleach and gasoline (60/40%)

    You might better replace the bleach with pure Oxygen and light a match. Nanothermite even better — contains its own oxidizing agent.

    You almost had me on that one. LOL

    • LOL: Liza
  115. theMann says:
    @Robert Dolan

    Why indeed the compulsion?

    Vaccines have already brought us Autism, Alzheimer’s disease, and a host of other brain dysfunctions, seeing as aluminum accumulating in the brain is bad….not to mention trashing people’s immune systems with Gardasil, among others.

    And “the Covid” can be simply avoided by sunlight, exercise, and nutrition (true of a lot of diseases); or, cured by hydroxychloroquine +zinc

    Plus, the vaccine companies remain completely coy about “adjuntants” including aborted fetal cell materials.

    And have a long track record of lies: for instance, Gates foundation slipping sterilization agents into vaccines. And catastrophic failures: for instance, the Swine Flu Flop, Polio Vaccine giving people polio.

    Gosh, everybody should race to get in line for a vaccine.

    • Agree: Liza
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  116. Iva says:
    @Mike265

    Once I saw a video done by a doctor who said that people who were vaccinated in 50 and 60’s are now developing cancer because of what was in vaccine . It may be 10 , 20 ,30 years when we will find out that we and our children are at risk becouse of covid vaccine.

  117. Glaucon says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Do you think there is not a small fraction of a percentage of people who react negatively to these vaccines? For the majority of people, they are most likely safe, but a small percentage of people have an adverse auto immune reaction that puts their bodies into a permanently disease ridden state? I’m slowly coming to this conclusion.

    Why are auto immune disease rising across the entire world? Why did deaths from peanut allergies double from 1998-2002? Seems to me we are over vaccinated.

    What is your take on William Thompson? The senior scientist whistleblower at the CDC who promised to swear under oath that other researches in the MMR vaccine safety trials destroyed documentation that proves a link between the MMR vaccine and autism?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  118. theMann says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Bullshit-

    I had Shingles and it was a nothing burger – an uncomfortable rash for a few days.

    Oh, see what happens when you use anecdotes instead of evidence?

    Obviously, Shingles produces wildly variable results, most of which are a walk-off, or treaded with acyclovir level drugs. The Shingles vaccine however, is consistent: it is painfully nasty and produces severe reactions in a measurable %age of people.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  119. So the taxpayer funded vaccines are nothing but a scheme to mint money for the useless class that sits atop the pyramid… let’s give those vaccines to Biden, Pelosi and Schumer to see if there are any deleterious effects!

  120. TKK says:

    Vaccine injection sites in dogs and cats often cause sarcomas.

    One study showed an eightfold increase in the number of sarcomas diagnosed from 1988 to 1994 and a similar increase in the ratio of injection site to noninjection site sarcomas.

    https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?meta=generic&pid=11181&id=3852257

    Many holistic vets aggressively reject all vaccines, even the Rabies vaccine, citing them as cash cows schemes.

    When my dog was a puppy, his starter vaccines pack made him shake uncontrollably for one hour and he had severe malaise and diarrhea . The vet glibbly told me to give him a Benadryl. Unfazed.

    • Agree: Liza, Clay Alexander
    • Thanks: John Q Duped
    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  121. After all the crap “they” have pushed on us (Fed, Balfour, WWI, WII, 911, proxy wars etc. etc.) the last 100 years alone, this covid BS. is their crowning glory. Within 8-10 years we’ll all be subterranean cave dwellers living six feet apart with light sensitive eyes, the perfect Gentile slave class. Praise be to the founder of our tribe Donald “The Great White Hope” Trump who lives above us all!

  122. @Old and Grumpy

    Also did anyone else read that Pfizer has been working on this Covid vaccine for six years? Wish I saved the article so I could consider the source.

    It wouldn’t be Pfizer, but BioNTech which developed the vaccine, and partnered with Pfizer for the monumental tasks of testing and production. I know more about Moderna, which has been working on mRNA vaccines in general for years, they didn’t partner for a variety of reasons we can surmise, and paid for that with a one month delay in their Phase III trial because they weren’t recruiting enough minorities.

    Anyway, the two things you need to know about people already working on coronavirus vaccines for lethal varieties of them are SARS, and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), which did not die out like the former because it has a camel reservoir. “Everyone” has been waiting for the next lethal coronavirus to emerge, perhaps MERS-CoV would mutate and get more adapted to humans and more transmissible (and even excluding that, an experimental vaccine could be handy for events like this MERS outbreak in South Korea), and like SARS this one came from the PRC.

    So for example see this article on how a Moderna partner (BioNTech also uses the same tweak) had first done research on how antibody-dependent enhancement had ruined a first killed virus attempt at a respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine, a tragedy hospitalizing 80% of the infants who got the vaccine when they later got RSV, and killing two (see also the dengue vaccine problem). That lead to MERS-CoV-2 spike protein research, which then could immediately be used by Moderna, since they produce mRNA “from scratch” (it’s easy).

  123. Meena says:

    Interesting situation

  124. So far, the vaccines are working perfectly; they had a 99% chance of becoming real right at election time. And I’m confident that any serious negative effects won’t become a problem for at least 4-8 years.

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
  125. @Old and Grumpy

    Go over and take a look at the iSteve blog, and you will see ” the sheeple and science worshipers” (including the host) going on and on about vaccines.

    I made the mistake there of just mentioning how quickly this vaccine has been thrust upon us, and that maybe, just maybe, we should be either skeptical or careful.

    Then, I was branded an “anti-vaxxer,” who clings to his guns and bible, by the condescending assholes who suddenly are willing to accept whatever is stabbed into their arms — this after all the supposedly independent thinking and endless intellectual pontificating, year-after-year, about how they have cracked “the logic of our times.”

    Human nature is pathetic, at any level. This whole thing is bullshit, and if Mr. Unz or Mr. Sailer really want to demonstrate their bona-fides, they will look into it. So far, all they have done is act as cheerleaders for it — like so many of their commenters.

    Just in time for the holidays.

  126. @Anon

    One can believe Taiwan, S. Korea, Norway, and Russia.

    This would be the same Russia which approved their Sputnik V vaccine one month before they started Phase III efficacy trials, that is, before they had any idea about its safety in large populations, or proof they’d be willing to publish of efficacy to make a risk/reward calculation with that Phase III safety data? “Proof” required in terms of people getting or not getting COVID-19 (weasle words because I can see them trying to infect people who got the vaccine, like some Dutch researchers are proposing), because while serological AKA blood tests can be a very good proxy for vaccine efficacy, and for example are the only thing you can use in Phase I and II trials to get the best dosing possible for the very big and expensive Phase III trial, they are obviously not the same thing.

    In theory, it should be a good vaccine, their scientists for example anticipating a problem that’s shown up in the Oxford trials of the AZ/Oxford vaccine, which uses two doses using the same adenovirus virus vector (TL;DR a half dose for the first dose may work much better, likely it produces less of an immune system reaction to the viral vector itself, a carrier for the COVID-19 spike protein). Sputnik V uses two different adenovirus viruses, one for the initial dose, another for the second booster.

    But theory must be tested in the real world (what’s happening in the real world is in general what a lot of us in this topic are arguing about), and for now Sputnik V is a political stunt. With Putin having put his and Russia’s prestige on the line, you’re also invited to imagine how honest that Phase III trial will be if it turns out to not have a good side effect profile and/or not be very effective. We’ll have to wait on experience with it outside of Russia’s ability to censor. Note my argument is with KBG gangsters like Putin, not the Russian people, whom I’ve never had problems with, like your experiences.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @JL
    , @Erebus
  127. Vojkan says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    People like her always make me wonder if they are actually aware of the sheer monstrosity of their discourse.

    • Replies: @Hootsman
  128. Mefobills says:
    @FoSquare

    FoSquare,

    You do realize the one-born free is a Lolbertarian. A broken clock is right twice a day.

    The very globalists and NWO types he is against is what he is for with the ideology he promotes.

    Note the line of causality, is the self-interested finance types who begin to think they are god. They then maneuver for control over the polity. The oligarchs want to be god.

    When you have lolbertarian free-dumb, then there is plenty of manevering room for real freedom to be squashed by “companies” because of muh free market. Last time I checked it was Google Gestapo, and Twitter, and various social media companies shutting down free speech. Lolbertarianism has no answers for this phenomena.

    The real logos, or hierarchy, requires some sort of elect who cares about their population. The best example for that is probably the constitutional kingdom of Hungary, which lasted for about 1000 years.

  129. Excal says:
    @LadyTheo

    Your comments here indicate to me that you’re telling the truth, and that you know what you’re talking about.

    I have no doubt that what you say about the people developing the Pfizer vaccine is true. It’s also reasonable. Most of the weasely types ultimately responsible for corruption at most organisations don’t hang around at the bottom, doing boring, hard, stressful development work. They’re go-getters focused on rising as high as possible. They want money, power, girls (or guys), and glory. The weasels not talented enough to rise, or cover their tracks, get flushed out or find some other place to infect.

    Not that Pfizer’s management are corrupt; I have no idea. I have read Mike Yeadon’s opinions, and I basically agree with him, but it also seems reasonable to me that a pharmaceutical company would do its best to quickly develop a pharmaceutical for one of the biggest pharmaceutical contracts in history. That is, after all, their business. Also, they’ll try to make it safe. Killing the customers, or making them want to sue you out of business, seems generally bad for business.

    I don’t personally intend to take any of these vaccines. I don’t see how the risk-reward works out, no matter how safe and effective they appear to be. Maybe after everybody’s been taking it for several years, and it’s clearly totally harmless, and there’s nothing immoral about it (such as aborted fetus cultures, etc., which I don’t think applies to the mRNA vaccines), I’ll give in.

    But in the meantime, I wish the best of luck to the people working on it.

  130. @Glaucon

    Do you think there is not a small fraction of a percentage of people who react negatively to these vaccines?

    Absolutely. Our adaptive immune systems are so wildly different, some of that has to be based on how they work, a lot obviously because people are genetically different, and there are probably other factors, that if you give a vaccine, or any drug for that matter, to millions and millions of people, some will be maimed and some killed.

    For an analogous example, I’m sure plenty of us know someone for whom 2-3 sesame seeds is a lethal dose through anaphylaxis unless they get epinephrine and in general good medical care quickly. See that peanut allergy problem you mention, which can get as bad, but which as far as I know we don’t understand the cause of. Any correlations with child vaccine schedule changes? I thought the hygiene hypothesis was thought to be more likely, that today’s bubble wrapped children weren’t getting enough immune system challenges that include vaccines.

    So it’s about two risk/benefit trade-offs: the selfish one, will you roll snake eyes with the wild type virus or the vaccine, to which I’d add nobody seems to be seriously considering the morbidity issue, for example look up “Long COVID.”

    And the altruistic one, will you take it so our society can have a chance at developing herd immunity for those for whom the vaccine doesn’t work? Which, again due to immune system variations, and of course for the elderly who’s immune systems don’t work as well, are a significant fraction of the population. In alignment with previous highly effective vaccines, these two mRNA ones are reporting initial estimates of 5% failure.

    I note Moderna made sure to enroll a lot of elderly participants, although I doubt they have enough case data yet to do breakdowns, for example using my memory “only” 26 participants have gotten symptomatic COVID-19 since their first efficacy announcement, which was based on the FDA’s minimum of around 170 total as I recall. Paying extremely close attention to these numbers probably isn’t worth our time unless and until the FDA approves EUA applications, which Moderna submitted today, both their’s and Pfizer/BioNTech’s will be considered in parallel, they’re both mRNA vaccines, we expect decisions in earlyish December.

  131. Angharad says:
    @Rumplestiltskin

    JUST REFUSE the vaccine. Easy peasy.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  132. So where is the danger from this vaccine?
    Old vaccines did boost immunity in the blood system.
    This vaccine is building immunity of the cells of the body.
    Character of this vaccine is playing game with Gods creation or if you like it better is playing with nature itself.

    Your all body is consisting of myriad of cells with very wide variety of functions.
    Your cells are like you they eat and they poop and pee. In the other words, there is continuous substance input and substance output in the cell.
    Cells need oxygen, water, salt, sugar, protein and depending on the function of the cell many other substances.
    Your blood stream carries all those life supporting substances to every cell in your body.

    Now you will be injected with vaccine. Vaccine joints the return stream of your blood circulation system. From there it goes to kidney, than heart.
    From there it goes to every cell in your body.

    Regardless if that cell needs or not needs it. it surrounds the cell and create barrier for entering the cell to proteins carrying the virus.

    From here we do not know what else could happen. But we know that it will have certain influence on substance exchange in the cell. and there is high probability that it will be negative.
    Substance exchange in cell are actually very slow process.

    In some cells this barrier may block vital substances, and the cell may die,,In other cases the cell wil not be able to perform its predetermined function. Cell lifespan is seven years. It may shorted
    the lifespan of the cell.

    So basically here comes Socrates : I know that I do not know!

  133. Agent76 says:

    Oct 22, 2020 Vaccines 101 (Vanquishing the “Vaccinati” with Veracity)

    Simply put: The TRUTH ABOUT VACCINES defeats the DECEPTIONS about Vaccines. TRUTH WINS!! It’s our hope that this episode enables you put all the pieces together and be able to defend your position on vaccines, based upon TRUTH.

    October 5, 2020 20 Volunteers Suffer Serious Reactions to Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 Vaccine

    Sept. 23, 2020, U.S. pharmaceutical and medical devices company Johnson & Johnson, Inc. announced the start of the Phase 3 human clinical trial for its experimental Ad26.COV2.S vaccine for COVID-19.

    https://thevaccinereaction.org/2020/10/20-volunteers-suffer-serious-reactions-to-johnson-johnsons-covid-19-vaccine/

  134. frontier says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    Perhaps you would comment and explain why some steps considered necessary, by at least some researchers, were not needed in this case.

    He won’t give a proper answer but it’s simple if you follow the money… The government, directly or through private intermediaries, provides sheetloads of freshly printed dollars to certain crony labs and companies, without any quality control, as long as their “results” fit the current political agenda. The chaps there don’t burden themselves with high scientific standards, in their minds, if they got paid, they’ve done a good job.

    • Agree: Rich
  135. nuggets says:

    Ref: deagel.com and population reduction of millions in USA, short of a nuclear exchange the only other option would be a vaccine. This fits the bill.

  136. gsjackson says:
    @BuelahMan

    PCR seems to have seen the light on the scamdemic. I didn’t read the mea culpa column, if there was one, but he apparently has done most of a 180 on the subject.

    • Replies: @BuelahMan
  137. There’s still no vaccine for the common cold so why should we believe this vaccine for Covid will work at all? This is all a well planned worldwide scam with many purposes for it. Yes a new strain was lab created and released into the air in various nations probably many times. And so quickly after the election suddenly Big Pharma claims they have a vaccine – in fact several different Pharma corporations now have a vaccine that’s 97.6% effective. And Pfizer’s is being flown in with Big Fanfare like Angel Airlines is flying it in from Heaven. We Are All Saved … so they have us believe.

    • Agree: TKK, Agent76
  138. Mefobills says:
    @Mefobills

    Addendum for PCR: Below is a link from PCR website, which sums up things nicely, and is worth a read:

    http://newsletters.newsmax.com/blaylock/issues/D20922D/1120_BWR.pdf?ns_mail_uid=4db8c050-1e80-490d-a783-3fe0649129c7&ns_mail_job=DM165257_&s=acs&dkt_nbr=

    Here is a telling comment from blaylock report at link above:

    The CDC remains the principle champion for flu vaccines, as they reap huge profits from their sale. Each year the CDC makes $4.6 billion is profits from 20 vaccines they hold the patents to.

    That begs the question, what is a government institution doing taking profits from the supposed free market?

    https://www.minds.com/BruceIA57/blog/cdc-is-not-a-federal-agency-just-like-the-federal-reserve-no-663476747513110537

    Clown world requires money to fund deception. The money is taken out of your pocket in the form of rents and usury, and then flows through an owned media, to then punk you with false information about the fabric of reality.

    Clown world was actually created in 1694 with the advent of a stock owned private bank which controlled a country i.e. the Bank of England.

    Clown world required absentee stock owners in free markets, controlling companies.

    Clown world required companies to become perpetual (citizens united).

    Clown world requires an owned press, to then pass false narratives.

    Clown world requires false economic doctrine, like lolbertarianism, to then hoodwink a population.

    Note: Hitler disallowed government workers from participating in stock market capital gains. He felt that a revolving door between government and corporations was inimical to the public good.

  139. @Piglet

    I’m sorry to hear about your father and his horrible demise.

    I have a very similar story about my grandfather. He went to the vets hospital for a checkup and the doctor talked him into a flu shot. He came home for the afternoon but ended up in the hospital that night. He died a few weeks later after much suffering. He never came home from the hospital.

    Anyone who says vaccines are safe clearly has no idea what they are talking about.
    Many people have seen their loved ones harmed or killed by vaccines.

    I’m truly saddened to read about what happened to your father.

    I hope you have a nice day Piglet.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  140. @theMann

    And catastrophic failures: for instance … Polio Vaccine giving people polio.

    That’s not a failure unless you’re referring to the Cutter Laboratories incident, but a mostly public health risk/reward trade-off.

    To what should be no one’s surprise, the Sabin type attenuated live virus oral vaccine will give “vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP)” to around 1 out of every 2.4 million people who get it. Also to what should be no one’s surprise, its old fashioned, replication competent attenuated viruses can, if they pass through enough people, regain their pathogenicity. Which is now one of the biggest problems in the effort to eradicate it from the world, see the lower right chart here, “circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus (cVDPV)” infections have outnumbered wild type since 2017.

    The trade-offs pertain to the population you’re trying to immunize. Live type requires better refrigeration, but no needle, it’s administered orally. It produces by far the best immune system response, and excreted viruses will statistically infect others so you don’t necessarily have to get every person in your first round.

    Killed virus vaccines always present manufacturing safety issues, because by definition you’ve got large quantities of the lethal wild type virus prior to inactivating them, and as Cutter showed, again to what should be no one’s surprise, a company can screw up the inactivation process. Good thing the leading vaccines COVID-19 vaccines can’t reproduce, wouldn’t you say?

    Anyway, the Salk type killed virus vaccine prevents someone who gets a gut polio infection from progressing to paralytic disease, but as implied, does not prevent such an infection, or the person passing the virus on to other people (it’s almost entirely a fecal-oral route disease).

    So you tend to use live virus for your first pass, and in developed enough societies, then killed virus since you’re pretty sure you’ll immunize enough people to provide herd immunity in case you get some of the real thing from another country.

  141. hetro says:
    @Digital Samizdat

    DS point here is right on: the danger of covid is to 1% of the population; the danger of the Moderna vaccine is to 5%; other vaccines to 6% or higher.

    A slimy Gates and his record (as with India) over the past years talking about 95% effective needs translating into how many belong in the 5% not effective, and what problems are involved.

    5% of 350 million (US) is 17.5 million for whom this touted rush job vaccine is not going to be effective.

    5% of 7.8 billion . . .

  142. Franz says:
    @Piglet

    You can see why I don’t get flu shots and I no longer have complete faith in doctors

    You’re right. Finding a good, honest doctor is getting rare. They are being leaned on by the Big Pharma and the vaccine peddlers and these people have billions to play with and they are literally above the law.

    But don’t give up. Honest and competent physicians are out there and you can trust them. They can’t bring back your tragic loss, but they can at least keep the same thing from happening to you. Best regards.

  143. Mefobills says:
    @Adam Smith

    Anyone who says vaccines are safe clearly has no idea what they are talking about.
    Many people have seen their loved ones harmed or killed by vaccines.

    The Blaylock report I posted earlier talks about dangerous vaccines.

    Normal flu shots are being boosted with adjuvants. Normal vaccines have very little deactivated viral material, and use adjuvants to signal to the immune system, come here and get me.

    Squalene is a new adjuvant extracted from shark livers. It is implicated in gulf war syndrome.

    It took me years to talk my wifey out of taking annual flu shots. She is a woman and easily manipulated by the owned press.

    Now, she boosts her immune system with vitamins, and she exercises, and hardly ever gets sick.

    • Thanks: Adam Smith
  144. I would refuse vaccines from Moderna, Pfizer, and Astra-Zeneca because of high likelihood of them being as fraudulent as the US “elections” in 2020. I don’t need any additional reasons.

    • Agree: John Wear
    • Thanks: Agent76
  145. @Franz

    I knew something was amiss when they came out with vaccines for chicken pox and flu. We are going to find out that these viruses are a natural part of our development.

    As the purpose of a vaccine is to manipulate your immune system, I wonder if the prevalence of immune system problems is the result of these vaccines.

    • Agree: Franz
  146. @Michael888

    Children are largely unaffected and do not spread Covid-19, yet some are added into vaccine trials. This is unethical!

    Citation? But if so, you are absolutely right, unless “children” are, as they often are in gun grabber propaganda, defined to include those under 21, or perhaps for the purposes of vaccines those who are 18 or a bit less. I note that only now that Moderna has serious safety data from their Phase III trial they’re talking about a trial to test it on children.

    In answer to your first point, one argument is the herd immunity one, and let’s not neglect the effect on children of losing grandparents, or believing they were responsible for killing grandma. I’d also like to be very sure the young aren’t getting long term side effects from the wild type virus infection, anyone who claims this is a reason we can’t trust vaccines now, or before two or even ten year from now, needs to explain how this “experiment” of letting everyone get the real thing in many, many more cells is obviously safer.

    Coronavirus experts have stated that antibodies are not a big part of the immune response to coronaviruses; there is probably a good reason for that (memory T cells seem to produce long-term, partial immunity).

    I would ask for a citation, but this is exceeding my very limited knowledge of the immune system, and per Wikipedia perhaps the general knowledge of this part of it (back in the mid-1970s when we were first really learning about it, I realized it was so very complicated it was firmly put into the “learn as needed” category; everything I’ve learned since then reinforces that decision). However:

    The novel vaccines are dependent on eliciting an antibody response (which happens with just about any protein injected if done with correct adjuvants). Seems misguided?

    How are the novel, I assume you mean mRNA vaccines, so dependent on eliciting an antibody response? Their purpose and function is to simulate as much as possible the wild type infection, but to a limited number of cells, and only the spike protein (or rather, a stabilized version of it to avoid antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)), whereas the wild type also elicits a response to the nucleocapsid protein. If the wild type elicits a memory T cell response, how do the mRNA ones fail, except by hijacking too few cells? Ditto the replication deficient adenovirus virus vector vaccines, except they of course express many more proteins.

    Plus for the elderly, the lethal target of the disease, much higher doses are needed for flu vaccinations.

    I’ve been assuming for the mRNA and adenovirus virus vector vaccines their hijacking of some cells will produce a more full spectrum immune system response, compared to an only protein one like the flu vaccine for the elderly (they aren’t approved for live type flu vaccines). So while no one should be surprised if they need more mRNA or adenoviruses, should the type, the breath of the response give better protection?

    There’s also the minor detail we don’t have time to really fine tune the dosages of these vaccines, that is truly the one step that’s being partly skipped. But a random distribution of dosages picked for the Phase III trials might lead to some vaccines being more than is needed for the younger set, and enough for much of the older set.

    This is stuff we’ll find out as for example the Moderna trial gets more experience, they made a point of enrolling a bunch of elderly people (and that claim from them is echoed by a number of reports from trial participants, including the iSteve one), and as these are given first to the highest risk populations as well as “important workers,” the former generally those over 65 who have a “significant” or maybe it’s “substantial” additional risk from comorbidities.

    There are many plans out there, you need to see what the FDA approves, and what your state’s is, or a state you’re willing to travel to if you live in New York and maybe some other Blue states if Cuomo’s attempt to recruit them against the “Trump vaccine” is successful.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Rich
  147. frontier says:
    @Mustapha Mond

    You’re way too gentle towards Mr TWBT, he’s working hard for his money. See, the problem isn’t medical, it’s political. Healthcare is a horrendously conflicted field, by law, by design – you should know this better than me. According to Mr TWBT, the new vaccines are the best thing ever, even safer than sliced bread… However… their manufacturers are exempt from lawsuits, there’s no transparency about the manufacturing process or adjuvants and all other creep that goes there. With that said, I take exception with this statement of yours:

    slamming China is frankly obnoxious and xenophobic

    Do you remember the Covid horror movies coming out of China at the time? You claim that the decease is mild even over 60, why horror movies then? They claimed, they had sequenced a new virus but you say it wasn’t new? Then, it turned out the sequencing was according their Chinese version of science… In other words, China did everything, including model complete lock-downs, to start, ramp up and sustain what you call “fear porn”. Do you remember Hong Kong just before Covid? Do you still think China deserves a pass?

    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
  148. @That Would Be Telling

    You seem to be defending these vaccines. Do you have a dog in this fight?

  149. Skeptikal says:
    @LadyTheo

    “I said earlier that I don’t think the severity of this virus warrants a vaccine, but the writing appears to be on the wall about that. ”

    This is the really interesting part, which you bury, now twice, in a sort of aside or throw-away at the end.

    Please tell us what you think is the reason for this “writing being on the wall” despite the lack of necessity for a vaccine to fight covid-19. What is the vaccine meant to fight, then?

    Waiting for a clear, cogent answer.

  150. @frontier

    It could be that the Chinese initially freaked out and overreacted to covid, OR…….I think it’s possible that they staged the whole thing from the get go to wreck our economy and trigger The Great Reset.

    And from the looks of it….elements of our own government are in on it as it’s obviously a communist takeover.

    • Agree: frontier
  151. Skeptikal says:
    @LadyTheo

    “Right. A tracking chip. Etc.

    You have been watching too many movies where big, evil pharma is the villain.”

    Wow, Lady Theo, you just blew your credibility right there.

    “Tracking chip” is just an expression for whatever nano-thing can be injected with the vaccine.
    As has been described in detail by the advocates of the ID20020 project and others. Such as MIT, which has developed and published articles (Dec. 2019) on a technology where the “tracking chip” actually is a substance within a dye that can be injected under the skin and contains digital information that can be read by a smartphone (or, who knows??, maybe a satellite or drone? ).

    Insulting people who cite information that is readily out there is a pretty stupid.

    You are like those who call people who discuss the Great Reset conspiracy theorists, when the Great Reset goals are out there for anyone to see, in multiple videos, etc. Honestly, WTF, Lady Theo.
    Can’t you read?
    What IS your job at Pfizer? Matron de Propaganda?

    • Replies: @Erebus
  152. Skeptikal says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    What are your professional qualifications?

    Thanx.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  153. @Angharad

    Sure, unless refusing the vaccine causes you to lose your job, disqualifies your children from attending the “public” (government) schools that you’re paying for, and disqualifies you and the whole family from airplane, train and bus travel.

    Having said that, we will go to some effort to avoid taking these vaccines. We’ve looked into school districts elsewhere in the hope that they, unlike the Los Angeles district, will not require an alleged covid-19 vaccine as a condition of the kids attending.

    We are also moving my Mom much closer to us — driving distance— partly because we wouldn’t be surprised by a federal interstate flight ban or restrictions (or again, vaccine requirement) in the near future.

    As for my job, though, it will likely be impossible to keep it, or get another one like it, if they require the vaccine as a condition of employment. Only option might be to tell my boss that I won’t take it and that accordingly I’ll work entirely online, never going to the office. The boss might say no, though, and in any event I couldn’t avoid going into the office / worksites forever.

  154. @flashlight joe

    Indeed, this poster (@That Would Be Telling) has definitely showed his hand. He is getting paid to gaslight. See @frontier in Comment #154.

    I think @LadyTheo is gaslighting as well.

    Stakes are high….and a compliment to Unz that these gaslighters are here working

    • Agree: Hootsman
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  155. If you don’t rollup your sleeve and take the shot you are obviously a racist and responsible for the death of George Floyd. You dirty bigot bastards! AMERICA 2020

  156. JL says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    With Putin having put his and Russia’s prestige on the line, you’re also invited to imagine how honest that Phase III trial will be if it turns out to not have a good side effect profile and/or not be very effective.

    Why would the Russians publish in Lancet, indeed, put their prestige on the line at all, if they were lying or didn’t think it worked? They could keep it completely in country. The Chinese don’t seem as interested in publishing information on their vaccine work.

    I can see them trying to infect people who got the vaccine, like some Dutch researchers are proposing…Note my argument is with KBG gangsters like Putin, not the Russian people, whom I’ve never had problems with

    Sounds a lot like your problem is with Russians people themselves. But don’t worry, this is Unz, racism is not only acceptable, it’s encouraged! Using the, “I’m not racist, some of my best friends are…” line on this site, of all places, is really funny.

    I was actually paying attention to your posts before this, but you’ve given up the game. That we’re supposed to trust angelic big pharma over the baddy Putin exposes you as a cheap shill.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  157. @Zarathustra

    Yes. If the blacks are sacred, as the elite deem them to be, protect them from the putative scourge first.

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
  158. @flashlight joe

    You seem to be defending these vaccines.

    Not the AZ/Oxford clown show! The testing is multiple sad jokes, and while I have to confirm this, it’s said they didn’t stabilize the spike protein, which could be very bad. I wouldn’t recommend enrolling in one of their trials, but otherwise we don’t have to worry about them for a while. They’re essentially going to have to restart their Phase III trials due to an oops Oxford’s Strong Women vaccine developers made (3 out of 6, including the leader) that also serendipitously revealed a possibly good dosing, the intended dosing they’re trying is a bust at around 60% effective. I’m also just now for the first time digging into the Janssen vaccine thanks to a silly critic positing possible disinformation about their Phase 1/2a trial, so you can ask me about that later today or this week.

    Do you have a dog in this fight?

    Yes, I’m officially going to become elderly soon, although not over 65. that is, lowest priority, and I have very good friends a fair bit over 65 who are in part depending on my judgements about these vaccines.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  159. @The Real World

    I’ve heard other people say they got the flu fairly quickly after getting a flu vaccine.

    That’s usually the reaction if you have never had one.

    People get a fever the next day and incorrectly assume it is the flu.

    • Replies: @The Real World
  160. @Mustapha Mond

    The original SARS vaccine was a failure. They injected animal hosts with it. Upon reinfection with the natural virus the hosts died. So no, there is nothing safe with this vaccine. And nurses/pharmacists/teachers, etc. are going to be forced to take this. I doubt doctors and politicians will!! RSV kills thousands of babies and children every year. There is no vaccine. Covid is a scam!!! A very well organized and orchestrated one. I firmly believe the US government has deep state traitorous actors working in tandem with communist China. And this was released to take down the US, disarm the last well armed populace in the entire world and usher in a form of global communism.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  161. Hootsman says:
    @Vojkan

    They get drunk on their own “save everyone” dogma and end up becoming monsters in the process. It’s a story as old as the hills – “the road to hell” and all that.

  162. @Skeptikal

    What are your professional qualifications?

    None in this area, $$$ forced me off the science track into software and systems. For my educational qualifications, see here. Since it seems that that actually being “professionally” qualified is a disqualifier, well, I’ve never earned a cent from the biomedicine field, except for one one month job I had that was several times removed information technology for people wanting to look up information about research.

    Claims I am getting paid for these postings are libel, I’m getting rewarded with tasty information that’s also personally actionable as well as for some elderly friends, and I’m a Southerner so I enjoy fighting. Right now Janssen’s approach is very different from the leading 3 not counting Sputnik V or PRC vaccines, long term, high reward. Based on what I’ve seen so far, they have a realistic prospect of achieving their goal of vaccinating a billion people in 2021, but it will be quite some time before anyone knows if their candidate is viable.

    Thanx.

    You’re welcome.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  163. Yes. If the blacks are sacred, as the elite deem them to be, protect them from the putative scourge first.

    Well the elites know that Blacks have (cough) issues with being socially minded. Liberals still can’t get them to recycle or throw their trash in garbage cans when in public. In Detroit there is a volunteer army of White douchebag men from the burbs that come in to mow lawns.

    I’m sure the liberal mayors in these areas want to prioritize by race. Liberal politicians basically view Blacks as unable to control themselves. They will draw out their “disproportionately affected” term when privately they simply view Blacks as the most irresponsible racial group.

  164. @John Fisher

    Indeed, this poster (@That Would Be Telling) has definitely showed his hand. He is getting paid to gaslight. See @frontier in Comment #154.

    @frontier and thus you are libeling me, very specifically about any claims I’m making about safety. Why don’t you actually read what I said instead of a one line summary from an opponent (more detail later, this message uses up my quota for now, and I have a lot of Janssen data to dig into). And for the record, I’ll say no one who’s not at very high risk, if they get it or for giving it to someone at very high risk, should take any of these vaccines while they’re still only covered by a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) and brand new in those limited general populations. More time for more data will tell us a lot.

    As for trials if you’re that sort of altruistic person, absolutely don’t enroll in an AZ/Oxford one. Opinion on Janssen coming up, and they may still be enrolling people for their long term approach, which includes a monster 60,000 Phase III trial. Sputnik V is probably good, but is also a political stunt, so they might not stop the Phase 3 trial if it’s starting to show very bad side effects; started September 10th, so they may still be enrolling participants. I shouldn’t need to say anything about PRC vaccines, it says a great deal the world trusts India a lot more than the PRC to make and package drugs.

    • Replies: @John Fisher
  165. Notsofast says:

    check out #130 about the evil kgb gangsta putin trying to poison people with the sputnik
    vaccine. wouldn”t want a low cost alternative vaccine out there, that could cost big pharma billions potentially. i think he and his lady love theo, have more gas than the hindenburg. her first post (from sept 20 of this year) is a beautiful love letter to ian read ceo of pfizer. do these trolls really think this will fly on this site?

  166. https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/11/27/johns-hopkins-study-saying-covid-19-has-relatively-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s-deleted-after-publication-n1178930

    [MORE]
    The study found that “This trend is completely contrary to the pattern observed in all previous years.” In fact, “the total decrease in deaths by other causes almost exactly equals the increase in deaths by COVID-19.”

    Briand concludes that the COVID-19 death toll in the United States is misleading and that deaths from other diseases are being categorized as COVID-19 deaths.

    There have been reports of inflated COVID-19 deaths numbers for months. Patients who never tested positive for the disease had COVID-19 as their cause of death on their death certificates. In May, Jared Polis, the Democrat governor of Colorado, disputed official coronavirus death counts, saying even those of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) were inflated as the result of including people who tested positive for the coronavirus but died of other causes. In July, a fatal motorcycle accident victim was listed as a COVID-19 death.

    On Thursday, Johns Hopkins University explained that they deleted the article on the study because it “was being used to support false and dangerous inaccuracies about the impact of the pandemic.”

    Though making clear the need for further research, the article was being used to support false and dangerous inaccuracies about the impact of the pandemic. We regret that this article may have contributed to the spread of misinformation about COVID-19.

    — JHU News-Letter (@JHUNewsLetter) November 26, 2020

    UPDATE November 28, 2020, 1 p.m. Eastern:

    Marvis Gutierrez and Ariella Shua, the managing editors of the JHU newsletter, assured Lead Stories that the article/study was not censored. “The article in question was retracted last night, as it was being used to spread misinformation about the pandemic. We have preserved the article as a PDF and posted an Editor’s Note: with full clarification about our decision, highlighting the inaccuracies of the study…We were not censored, but decided to retract the article based on the reasons outlined in the Editor’s Note.””
    The author of the article on Briand’s study, Yanni Gu, responding to the article being pulled, posted the following on LinkedIn:

    Today, on November 27th, The News-Letter officially posted their reason for retracting the article, stating inaccuracies in the analysis. I am frustrated at the explanation, and I think it is disrespectful to Dr. Briand’s hard work putting data together and doing an honest analysis. If her analysis was to be contradicted, then at least an equal-level analysis should be done to provide more data and thus a new conclusion. Dr. Briand and her work deserve such respect.
    I have received many messages asking the reason for taking the article down, and so I would like to officially express my opinions here. I even got emails saying that thanks to me, people now will not be wearing masks or practicing social distancing. They called me “a COVID denier and a minimizer” and that I have no idea the damage and the lives cost in me writing such an article. I was devastated to receive such accusations, but I stand my ground. The goal is never to undermine the effects of COVID-19 but to suggest a possible over-exaggeration in death numbers due to the pandemic.

    Professor Briand also responded to the pulling of the article, saying “Their decision to retract the article was their own. Yanni Gu did an excellent at reporting the content of the presentation. The full presentation is available at: Covid-19 Deaths: A Look at U.S. Data – YouTube. I explain during the presentation where I found and downloaded the data from, so anyone can easily replicate my analysis.”

    _____

    • Thanks: Skeptikal
  167. Rich says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Wow, you think kids are going to feel bad about “killing granny”? You say you’re not a paid actor, but you are really going all out to push a rushed vaccine. If you don’t work for them, you must have put a whole lot of the nest egg into moderna. How do you dismiss comparisons to the swine flu vaccine debacle in the 70s?

    And no kid, anywhere, is going to feel guilt about poor granny. She lived a full life and if she hadn’t caught the covid it would’ve been the flu, or maybe one of those dangerous STDs I hear are decimating the various retirement homes, filled with heathens, across the country.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  168. Agent76 says:

    Oct 30, 2020 Forced Vaccines & Digital IDs

    It’s time to hear the real truth the mainstream media is not telling us!

    Nov 11, 2020 Ticketmaster Wants Your Covid Test Results In Order To Go To Live Concerts!

    DJ MoonDawg is back with a story about how Ticketmaster is looking at potentially requiring Covid Test results to be provided by people in order to buy and attend live concerts.

  169. I’m not injecting anything that I know contains aborted fetal tissue. If it’s a thing to be a vegan it seems like you should be able to refuse to be a cannibal.

    • Replies: @Agent76
  170. @That Would Be Telling

    More pilpul.

    Look, there are two possibilities:

    1. You feverishly submit dozens of 700-1000 word comments in this thread because you sincerely believe vaccines are good and are zealous to help people. In that case, you are simply putting another layer of good intentions on the road to hell.

    2. You are paid to attack vaccine opponents (or even doubters) and promote the vaccine agenda through shifting sands, smoke, and pettifoggery. In that case, you are malevolent.

    It doesn’t matter much which is true, the end result is the same.

    My advice to readers is to ignore your comments and trust their own instincts and common sense on vaccines (and most everything else). It’s not that complicated.

  171. @John Johnson

    I’m not as inclined to blow people off as you are. You could be right but, THEY experienced the reaction and have had flu before so, they have familiarity with it. Therefore, I’m more likely to take them at their word.

    This I’ll say, about 90% of the time, whenever someone disputes an experience I’ve had (related to anything) they were wrong. It’s bizarre that some think they live inside other peoples lives.

  172. @Rich

    but you are really going all out to push a rushed vaccine

    Lie, I’m saying a couple of them look very good, one bad, one unknown, and we need more data to have confidence about these judgements.

    How do you dismiss comparisons to the swine flu vaccine debacle in the 70s?

    Because I’m old enough to remember it, and that we weren’t able to come to a conclusion it was a medical debacle instead of course a political one for Gerald Ford. The novel swine flu (and I’d want to do some real digging to make very sure it was truly novel instead of the “Russian flu” that was a circa 1947-57 strain that we believe was accidentally released from a PRC or Soviet lab in 1976) did not in fact stage a breakout, so the mass vaccination campaign was halted after a quarter of the population had gotten it.

    Heck, I don’t know why you all aren’t using as an example of why vaccination is bad for you the practice of variolation starting sometime in the 10-15th century. That often had bad side effects including death, and just like it’s obvious we haven’t learned anything since 1976, the same in half a millennia.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @Skeptikal
  173. @geokat62

    No kidding!

    I was getting an annual physical in August and I said the the Doc, “There are many strange things about this Covid deal. Let me ask you this because you’re the Doc and I don’t know the answer — ‘Have you ever heard of viruses/ illnesses that you can be tested positive for but have no outward symptoms?’

    She got slightly defensive and said, “Well, there’s alot we still don’t know about this virus.” To which I replied, “Okay, but what’s your answer?”

    She said, “No”.

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  174. If the vaccine is only designed to lessen symptoms does this mean that a vaccinated person can still get covid 19 and spread it?

  175. @John Fisher

    More pilpul.

    More libel, I didn’t even know any Jews until I went outside my state for science education in a couple of summers during high school.

    Look, there are two possibilities:

    1. You feverishly submit dozens of 700-1000 word comments in this thread because you sincerely believe vaccines are good and are zealous to help people. In that case, you are simply putting another layer of good intentions on the road to hell.

    I’m zealous to figure out what’s going on with these vaccines, because I and some of my genuinely elderly friends have to make decisions about taking them sometime next year. I’m zealous about SCIENCE!!!, the truth, and learning, the latter of which these discussions and arguments are significantly advancing, and how do you expect me to reply to an article like this one that effectively free associates on many of the bad things that might happen with these vaccines? Seriously, look at my first reply, the author created an internally inconsistent screed. That’s not ignorance, but sloppiness at best.

    How to you expect me to respond to people worried about prion disease (thankfully not an issue), the lunacy 2-3 times over of “it changing your DNA” (well, the mRNA vaccines), etc. etc. You should be thankful I don’t try to convert those who reject the entire germ theory of disease.

    • Replies: @Emslander
  176. @JL

    With Putin having put his and Russia’s prestige on the line, you’re also invited to imagine how honest that Phase III trial will be if it turns out to not have a good side effect profile and/or not be very effective.

    Why would the Russians publish in Lancet, indeed, put their prestige on the line at all, if they were lying or didn’t think it worked? They could keep it completely in country.

    That’s an excellent question. If they let it outside the country in all but the most authoritarian or totalitarian places, people might be able to figure out the truth about it. Although I sneer at The Lancet, have since the 1980s.

    But I believe they believed it works, had some evidence for that, but by definition they can’t know, for some value of know, that it works, let alone if the risks outweigh the benefits, until they start getting results from their Phase III trial. Which was my whole point, the approval and boasting happened one month before that trial started. Which is not a secret.

    Let’s turn this around. People here are literally screaming bloody murder about vaccines that have their first solid results from Phase III trials, enough COVID-19 cases for an estimate of efficacy, two months of safety data from one half of their vaccine trial arms, EUA applications only on the 20th and today. And that work hasn’t yet been double checked by the FDA. What would they be saying if these companies and Trump had declared success after Phase I or II trials?? Would they be justified in doubting that?

    • Replies: @JL
  177. MGB says:

    I will not be accepting the jab, mRNA or otherwise. This whole process is irredeemably corrupt, from the starting line to vaccine roll out. Moderna, which has never developed a vaccine (as I understand it, they don’t do much development at all, but have purchased the right to manufacture and sell previously developed products) has come up with a novel vaccine for a novel virus, that has extremely rigid handling parameters. The company that is handling the transportation/delivery is McKesson. From Reuters:

    Soon after getting the green light, Moderna expects its vaccine to be shipped to distribution points across the United States by the government’s Operation Warp Speed program and drug distributor McKesson Corp.

    McKesson paid about $170M in fines for its role in the distribution of opioids (failing to meet reporting requirements for suspicious orders, to criminal gangs for example, and such), so we can count on them to report if there are any snafus with the handling and distribution of mRNA vaccine. *kicks malfunctioning freezer unit*. Perhaps one of the vaccine promoters here would volunteer to get jabbed with some ‘spoiled’ product, and see what happens with the vax and the nano junk in the vax.

    Also from the same Reuters article, Tal Zaks, chief medical officer for Moderna was literally crying over the test results. Zaks’ tears, meet Dr. Seuss.

    “At this level of effectiveness, when you just do the math of what it means for the pandemic that’s raging around us, it’s just overwhelming,” said Zaks, who said he cried when he saw the final results over the weekend.

    Crying at the math, yes. Later in the article we get to the salty source of his emotion.

    Moderna plans to start a new trial to test the vaccine in adolescents before the end of the year, followed by another in even younger volunteers early in 2021. It hopes to have the vaccine available for adolescents by September, Zaks said.

    Already with the expanded marketing, to adolescents, who have a much greater chance of dying or being seriously injured in a car crash, than dying of or suffering severe symptoms from the Covid. Just like the HPV vaccine being marketed to teenagers and other “younger volunteers”. Will there be any surprise when some unfortunate 8-year old gets yanked from his parents because they won’t subject him/her to the Covid jab? And is there a greater chance of harm from refusing the vaccine, than a stay in foster care?

    • Replies: @MGB
  178. Rich says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Like fighting the straw man, eh? Being leery of a vaccine that is being rushed out in no way makes one anti-vaccine. Especially for a virus with such a low death rate.

    You may not intend to sound like a cheerleader for the covid vaccine, but your high number of extremely pro covid vaccine comments here make you seem like one. Believe it or not, there is more than one side to this argument, and your side isn’t all that convincing.

  179. @That Would Be Telling

    It never ceases to amaze me that people making extreme claims like “SARS-CoV-2 has never been isolated” fail to do trivial searches

    You didn’t, of course, even begin to answer my question. Nevertheless I did your Bing search dutifully just like you asked. I also clicked on your CDC link and confirmed the cited statement that SARS-COV-2 has been isolated. As evidence that source further linked to this research paper, which turned out coincidentally to be the same research paper as my Bing result:
    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/6/20-0516_article

    The abstract of this paper indeed says:

    We also deposited the virus into 2 virus repositories, making it broadly available to the public health and research communities

    But then it ends by saying:

    We have deposited information on the SARS-CoV-2 USA-WA1/2020 viral strain described here into the Biodefense and Emerging Infections Research Resources Repository … and the World Reference Center for Emerging Viruses and Arboviruses …, to serve as the SARS-CoV-2 reference strain for the United States.

    So not the virus, but only information about it. I presume the genetic sequence of whatever they found.

    How did they prove it was a virus? Well they inoculated certain (Vero or green monkey) cell lines with patient inoculum (just as your other study) and then were able to transmit the “infection” from that sample to another sample of the same line but not, or not well, to any human cell line. They did not attempt to infect living green monkeys and then repeat the process.

    How did they know they had succeeded? Because each cell line displayed certain vague “cytopathic effects”. I looked in vain for any attempt to characterize those effects as anything typical of Covid19. I also looked in vain for any attempt to distinguish those effects from what would be expected from the common cold.

    And again their electron microscopy photograph (Fig. 1D) shows what looks like a coronavirus among various other structures and cell debris. So not an improvement on the other paper you sent me to.

    How did they identify the virus? Well:

    We observed a morphology and morphogenesis characteristic of coronaviruses.

    I then found another CDC document dated 07/13/2020, which stated, in marked contrast to your assertion:

    Since no quantified virus isolates of the 2019-nCoV are currently available, assays designed for detection of the 2019-nCoV RNA were tested with characterized stocks of in vitro transcribed full length RNA

    CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel

    So would it be fair to say they are basing their identification of the virus on heuristic procedures that have been deemed to work in the past?

    • Agree: John Wear
    • Replies: @utu
  180. Skeptikal says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    “I have very good friends a fair bit over 65 who are in part depending on my judgements about these vaccines”

    Well, I am “elderly” and I am just “not going there” with any of these vaccines, thank you very much.

    If you were in Portugal you might get into trouble for giving medical advice if you are not licensed to do so.

  181. @TKK

    Many years ago, I too had a skin cancer develop exactly over my smallpox-vaccination scar. It turned out to be a basel-cell carcinoma, which was easily removed. My doctor’s attitude, when I pointed out the connection was ‘Hey it’s gone, what’s your problem?”

  182. The Covid vaccines are this Century’s version of Auschwitz and Treblinka, and Dr. Frankenfauci and Bill Gatesenstein this Century’s Joe Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler. Both need to be standing trial, Nuremberg-style, for the crime of Geriatric Genocide.

  183. @John Fisher

    Moderna, which has never developed a vaccine (as I understand it, they don’t do much development at all, but have purchased the right to manufacture and sell previously developed products) has come up with a novel vaccine for a novel virus, that has extremely rigid handling parameters.

    Wrong on all counts but the first, and it is suspicious this is their very first therapeutic to get beyond a Level 1 trial, those don’t have to be reported to the FDA. On the other hand, they’ve been working on mRNA technology for a solid decade, and they’ve had some serious help from for example researchers who first figured out a fix to the RSV vaccine debacle (search on “RSV” for more on all this), and then developed a tweak to prevent that failure in coronavirus vaccines that use the spike protein.

    “Extremely rigid handling parameters,” maybe you’re confounding their’s with Pfizer/BioNTech’s, which needs −70C/−94F, dry ice can do the trick, and degrades after thawing in five days? Moderna’s requires standard medical refrigeration, “2-8C (36-46F) for up to 30 days or −20C (−4F) for up to 4 months,” which you could achieve with civilian fridges and freezers that aren’t frost free (those use regular warm air cycles to remove frost).

    The way you choose to disqualify McKesson is ludicrous, especially since failure to maintain temperatures can be detected if the companies choose to spend the money to do so, and that McKesson level failures will be traceable back to them. Moderna is a company worth being suspicious of, but you’re completely missing the big, real things, except as how they might be reflected in silly PR (hints, search engines are your friend, and the CEO is French). So your instincts maybe aren’t all bad, or a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    As for adolescents, they have much less ability to prevent themselves from giving COVID-19 to others, and a lot of others, than they do HPV through sexual activity. Which … haven’t I heard that’s going down in these ages? Interacting with smartphones is emotionally safer or something?? Anyway, you’re dismissing the prospect of herd immunity, which may be realistic for the US, as this and the iSteve discussions have demonstrated, the Right is filled with selfish sociopaths who only care about their own survival prospects (but not, strangely, their morbidity prospects if/when they get COVID-19, but if that happens from a vaccine, it’s unforgivable).

  184. @ConqueringFools

    The original SARS vaccine was a failure. They injected animal hosts with it. Upon reinfection with the natural virus the hosts died. So no, there is nothing safe with this vaccine.

    You think we learned absolutely nothing about that failure in the last decade plus? There’s reasons (MERS) we were very well poised to make vaccines for COVID-19.

    RSV kills thousands of babies and children every year. There is no vaccine.

    Strangely enough, the two might be related, the first RSV vaccine attempt hospitalized 80% of the infants who got it, and killed two. Also why you shouldn’t try the AZ/Oxford vaccine any time soon, if ever, if it indeed does not use a stabilized spike protein. Search on “RSV” for my previous comment for details.

    disarm the last well armed populace in the entire world

    Who’s going to bell the cat??

    • Replies: @ConqueringFools
  185. MGB says:
    @MGB

    correction: *never previously developed an approved vaccine*

  186. Skeptikal says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You keep saying “we,” as in
    “we need,”
    ” we weren’t able to come to a conclusion”
    “strain that we believe was accidentally released from a PRC or Soviet lab in 1976”
    blah blah we blah blah . .

    Like you are part of the scientific community.

    You are a programmer, not a doctor nor an epidemiologist nor a virologist.

    That little “we” is a transparent little rhetorical device to separate “we”—the insider scientists, like me, who really understand this shit—from “you” or make that “you all,” pathetic ignoramuses who couldn’t think their way out of their pajamas.

    You are not part of any covid-19-relevant “we”; you are just a know-it-all programmer who shouts “libel” whenever anyone here calls you out or attempts to cut through your verbal diarrhoea.

    BTW, that’s “half a millenniUM.” Actually, your whole last graf is barely coherent English. Are you perchance an AI? Who trained you????

  187. barr says:

    Its sad to see so many of us think that the virus, epidemic, effects, death, morbidity, hospitalizations and the benefit of mask or social distancing are all wrongheaded advice, suggestion or preaching and are nothing but scam.

    We can debate about the safety of the vaccine We can debate about the lockdown the pros and con of the economic measures being taken.We can blame China, bat ,animal, labs , USA Fauci CDC Trump -clown . But the problem is here and and doesn’t look like ist going away
    Dismissing it is not going to work.
    The virus and its effects are real

    What it seems that its kill rate is low but the high transmission and almost 100 % contagion in densely populated, crowded spaces render the entire health care system vulnerable in addition to the impacts on jobs and the family social activities because of the precautions we need to take. The sufferings described by those infected are about 10 to 30 % That’s a big number We don’t know how long the morbidity will persist and what impact will have on economy family and health care .

    I was like other was hoping the model followed by Sweden will prove to be a success
    It has not .

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  188. @The Real World

    I’m not as inclined to blow people off as you are. You could be right but, THEY experienced the reaction and have had flu before so, they have familiarity with it. Therefore, I’m more likely to take them at their word.

    I am very inclined because a relative of mine gives flu shots and she hears this all the time.

    People get the vaccine and then falsely assume that the fever that follows is in fact the flu. Then they refuse shots in the future on the basis that they never got sick until they got the shot.

    A fever of 101°F (38°C) or less is a common side effect of the flu shot. A slight fever is considered a mild side effect. It should go away within a day or two.
    https://www.healthline.com/health/flu-shot-side-effects

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  189. @The Real World

    I’m not as inclined to blow people off as you are. You could be right but, THEY experienced the reaction and have had flu before so, they have familiarity with it. Therefore, I’m more likely to take them at their word.

    This I’ll say, about 90% of the time, whenever someone disputes an experience I’ve had (related to anything) they were wrong. It’s bizarre that some think they live inside other peoples lives.

    First of all most people don’t know what the flu is. They think it is a heavy cold.

    Secondly it’s not simply my personal opinion. I have a relative that gives flu shots and she hears this all the time.

    People say they never got sick until they got the flu shot.

    But you can’t get the flu from the vaccine. You can get a fever which is a common reaction.

    The most common side effects from flu shots are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur. If these reactions occur, they usually begin soon after vaccination and last 1-2 days.
    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/misconceptions.htm#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20side%20effects,and%20last%201%2D2%20days.

    That is the most likely explanation.

    • Replies: @The Real World
  190. Pharma cannot be sued for vaccine shots, they got that law passed many years ago. Why are they so special? Just look at how Autism has skyrocketed everywhere with no end in sight. They have free passes to do whatever they want, be it healing or be it killing. But certainly it is BIG profits.

    • Replies: @The Real World
  191. @Greta Handel

    Why such a narrow response?

    Because I can’t read your mind? Because I have to pick and chose which idiocies and honest questions to respond to, I only have three posts I can make per hour. Plus I’m going to burn out on this particular Unz.com article comment fight pretty soon, and curl up reading about Janssen’s rather different approach to all this?

    You (and LadyTheo) have posted a lot in this thread. But nothing much about, to stick to Robert Dolan’s #61, these broader concerns and objections:

    [1] First of all, the virus is NOT dangerous to MOST people. A TINY segment of the population is at risk.

    I thought I made it clear I’m not a selfish sociopath, who only cares what happens to myself and not my elderly friends, and especially those I might accidently infect? If so, I apologize.

    [2] The swine flu vaccine was rushed and it did massive harm.

    To Gerald Ford’s political career, maybe, but otherwise the harm was not “massive,” and it’s not even clear it was caused by the vaccine; see a more complete answer here.

    [3] Also…you cannot explain away the insane idea that the vaccine will be MANDATORY….and they plan to punish people if they refuse to take it. They will likely target work, school, banking, travel…if this vaccine is such a GREAT thing then why do you need police state enforcement and coercion?

    Because it’s not germane to the discussion? I mean, give me a few pallets of nuclear tipped ballistic missiles and I suppose I could stop vaccine development and production worldwide, with a few minor side effects, but otherwise what can I do about this on this forum??? Aren’t we here on Unz.com in general agreement about our hostile ruling elite, how they won’t “let a good crisis go to waste,” etc. etc.?

    OK, I do throw shade on the tagging concept, but I think with sufficient justification, it’s either not possible or not useful for our betters (first, we’d have to put down our smartphones; I’m also appalled by the Right’s abject refusal to contemplate throwing a spanner into facial recognition technology).

    I claim no expertise, but have learned from the Cholesterol, Swine Flu, AIDS, and other such Scares that Establishment health authorities in this country can’t be relied upon. To me, these are three fair points more important than the one you focused on. You should address them if you want to convince the skeptics.

    Heh, the saturated fats including cholesterol fraud has been going on since before I was born, and the more we learn about this fraud, the more angry we should get. And it helps to spread the meme and truth that you should assume at least one half of all published biomedical research is wrong.

    But vaccines, and infectious disease control? We’re on much better ground there, as long as we don’t give diseases civil rights as was done with AIDS. Oh, and as long as we ignore the CDC as much as possible, infectious disease control is not fashionable in the public health establishment, and the CDC has lived down to our expectations with COVID-19.

    I only trust them to count raw numbers of death certificates sent the states, raw as in total “all cause” mortality. See the latest iSteve discussion for more on wondering about how the CDC’s reports are different than that withdrawn paper, which claims to have used the CDC’s data…. Someone made a mistake, and see above, the CDC might be the one.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
  192. @That Would Be Telling

    I don’t know you from a hole in the ground. I could care less what you or anyone else on here thinks. There are PLENTY of doctors, scientists, and knowledgeable people out there as smart or smarter than you (me) who speak the truth about vaccine science and safety. But because the pharmaceutical companies control all the medical literature and medical schools most doctors are straight up propagandized to believe vaccines were sent from heaven by the almighty himself and will cure everything from cancer to clap to male pattern baldness and ED! Most doctors can’t even understand the concept of original antigenic sin. Meanwhile, autoimmune disorders, autism, and peanut (food) allergies are skyrocketing among US kids. I’m 41 years old and NOT ONE single kid I went to elementary school with had a peanut allergy. Now most kids can’t even bring PBJ sandwiches to school without killing the entire class. Peanut oil is an unlisted ingredient in many vaccines. Who woulda thunk injecting a peanut protein directly into the blood of young developing babies and toddlers might cause their immune system that evolved over thousands of years to go haywire. LOL…….you don’t have to have a PhD in biochemistry etc. to understand how stupid the entire concept of vaccination even is.

    The entire pertussis vaccine is a complete sham!!! They haven’t figured out how to put the adenylate cyclase toxin that the bacteria secrete into the lungs into the vaccine as an adjuvant/antigen etc. So we have all these dumb parents and doctors massively vaccinating kids with the whooping cough vaccine. Problem is, when kids get exposed to the natural bacteria and it secrets the toxin ACT they get sick. Their body doesn’t know how to clear the toxin which is what attaches to the cilia in the lungs and causes them to malfunction. Hence, the characteristic whooping cough. This is the entire premise of original antigenic sin and why vaccines are basically a shot in the dark and many of them do nothing to prevent outbreaks of childhood diseases.

    So no, if they haven’t figured out how to isolate the most important part of a pertussis bacterium and are forcing an at best worthless vaccine onto our children I don’t have any faith the scientific community has really learned much about a much more complex type of vaccine and virus aka mRNA vaccines that work totally differently and have the potential to do much more harm up to and including sudden death.

    • Agree: John Q Duped
    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  193. Drdr says:

    Holy moly, this is the most idiotic thing I think I have ever read..

  194. @That Would Be Telling

    Claims I am getting paid for these postings are libel

    Well, not really. Libel is a legal term, warranting serious damage awards. As long as you stay anonymous and don’t legally change your name to your UR moniker, there can be no damage to your reputation. At best such claims can hurt your feelings. Stick around long enough and you will find they run off your back like water.

    At 60 you are still young and inclined to overstatements, which tend to get push back. You haven’t quite realized the extent of corruption today.

  195. Agent76 says:
    @AnitaHulluvachick

    Allot folks have no idea the dangers.

    Jul 12, 2019 The Threat of Fetal DNA In Vaccines

    Dr. Theresa Deisher presents the dangers of residual human fetal DNA fragments are an unstudied risk to vaccine recipients, yet there’s a growing scientific body of knowledge demonstrating the high likelihood of autoimmune response and gene mutations in children with a genetic vulnerability.

  196. @That Would Be Telling

    Ooh, touchy! If you don’t want to squander another comment, turn things back over to LadyTheo.

    You haven’t substantially refuted any of them, and even a layman can see that your response to [3] is dissembling gobbledygook.

    Now I don’t trust you, either.

    • LOL: John Fisher
    • Replies: @John Fisher
  197. @Trygve Blodøks

    What du you think of this?https://knowledgeofhealth.com/not-covid/

    Not much. There’s a very weak causality chain he builds for his B-1/thiamine deficiency causality chain prior to it becoming a cycle, one has to ask, why now, and it’s not happening with my regional COVID-19 hospital capacity crisis, or lack of one in the first wave. That is, to the extent we ever practiced it, social distancing in the most general sense noticably radically decreased by sometime in May.

    Cases did not get really high until recently, I can’t remember if the correlation was with the public schools opening with in person classes, or somewhat later, fall as a weather phenomena hit us a bit late except for one cold snap. And now for 150 miles in all directions it’s very hard for ER staff to find COVID-19 beds to admit people into, and the reserve another 10 miles away will be full soon, if not already. So the people isolated -> lots of hospital cases didn’t happen here, twice or thrice.

    It also only considers the US I think, does not explain how this problem is a worldwide phenomena in radically diverse societies. It’s an extraordinary claim for which I just don’t see much evidence, let alone “extraordinary evidence.”

    And let’s remember, pandemics are a very very old phenomena, the Antonine Plague of 165-180 AD is the first well recorded one. Three total plague pandemics, zillions of flu ones, per Wikipedia maybe one back to 1200 BC, one in 1889-90, I think the first really big and fairly well recorded one as public health was becoming a thing, then 3 in the 2oth Century. After SARS and MERS, no one should be surprised by a real coronavirus pandemic, especially with all the true mad scientists doing gain of function research.

  198. Emslander says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    I’m zealous to figure out what’s going on with these vaccines, because I and some of my genuinely elderly friends have to make decisions about taking them sometime next year.

    Like a lot of things in America in recent times, the intelligent choice of “what do I do about _____?” becomes an issue for the psychologist. I’m immediately skeptical about the validity of the many claims made about this virus. That makes me skeptical about the vaccine. Maybe I’m crazy, but the patterns that all of this has followed indicate chicanery and skullduggery, financial chicanery and political skullduggery.

    The vaccine has probably been developed using human fetal cells, though you can’t get a straight answer to the question. If the authorities can force pro-life Christians to use their cannibalized medicines, then they win that battle forever. Seems just too advantageous to the evil side of a moral issue.

    I’m psychologically inclined to believe nothing the government tells us.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  199. lysias says:
    @Billy Chav

    During the Weimar hyperinflation, the owners of real property made out like bandits.

  200. @barr

    I was like other was hoping the model followed by Sweden will prove to be a success

    Sweden is looking pretty good these days. Their daily deaths in this so-called second wave peaked two weeks ago and have dropped off quite markedly since then.

    Their general strategy was always justified. They screwed up massively on care homes, as did many other jurisdictions. But otherwise they have controlled the epidemic quite well. Swedish ICUs were never overwhelmed.

    Interestingly Sweden’s success may not have due to its refusal to lock down. Its attitude to Vitamin D could be more significant:

    The northern latitude countries of Norway, Finland and Sweden, have higher vitamin D levels despite less UVB sunlight exposure, because supplementation and fortification of foods is more common. These Nordic countries have lower COVID-19 infection and death rates. The correlation between low vitamin D levels and death from COVID-19 is statistically significant.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512134426.htm

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Barr
  201. @John Johnson

    A fever of 101°F (38°C) or less is a common side effect of the flu shot. A slight fever is considered a mild side effect. It should go away within a day or two.

    Or if not a day or two, then certainly a week or two. Or is it a month or two?

    Some of us have a more jaundiced view of medical advice that seems designed to get us to accept the establishment narrative.

    The castor oil is good for you, sweetie … shut up and swallow it.”

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  202. @ConqueringFools

    The entire pertussis vaccine is a complete sham!!! They haven’t figured out how to put the adenylate cyclase toxin that the bacteria secrete into the lungs into the vaccine as an adjuvant/antigen etc.

    Ummm, this an argument against the new acellular pertussis vaccine, vs. the “witch’s brew” whole cell one that included the adenylate cyclase toxin and a whole lot more that fell out of favor due to a perceived bad side effect profile compared to its benefits.

    So no, if they haven’t figured out how to isolate the most important part of a pertussis bacterium and are forcing an at best worthless vaccine onto our children I don’t have any faith the scientific community has really learned much about a much more complex type of vaccine and virus aka mRNA vaccines….

    Nah, it just sounds like they’re lazy and cheap, and no doubt tired of the political battles over this, so they just created a vaccine against the pertussis toxin, and not also the toxin that disables the innate immune system enough for the bacteria to get a lodgment, where the only protection is against the pertussis toxin and it might not be fully effective, and is probably not the only bad things the bacterium does. Or, did they even know about the adenylate cyclase toxin back then??

    The above is actually a pretty simple but probably incomplete model. But coronaviruses are much, if not quasi-infinitely simpler than bacteria. For the theory we have to make simplifying assumptions about their functioning in human cells (which are much, much more complicated than bacteria), but we don’t really need much theory, we can go by a lot of empirical research, which is your beef with the acellular pertussis vaccine.

    That is, we observe the spike protein is an essential part of its life cycle, how it gets into cells. Also seems to be conserved (can’t change much, like a lock accepting a key, or “the virus won’t virus”). Unless we’re Oxford, we target a stabilized version of it to avoid weak immune system reactions and the potential for antibody-dependent enhancement (search for “RSV” in my previous comments). For the vaccines under discussion here, the ones first out of the gate excepting the PRC ones, we create systems that hijack a small set of cells to make the spike protein just like the wild type virus. It then stands to reason the adaptive immune system will react to it much like the wild type virus, albeit not also reacting to coronavirus nucleocapsid proteins.

    Then we jabbed animals and humans with these concoctions. Did they die or really suffer? No, that’s good :-). Do they develop immune system profiles like those who get the wild type virus? Yes! OK, now we send 30,000 people minimum out into the world, half with the vaccine, half with a placebo, each called “arms” of the trial. Do the people in the vaccine arm die or really suffer? No, again that’s good :-). Wait a while, and how many people naturally get symptomatic and maybe “severe” COVID-19, and in which arms? Do some math, you have an efficacy percentage that for the mRNA ones is aligned with many of the best previous anti-virus vaccines we’ve gotten to work in much the same way (note the bacteria for diphtheria also needs regular booster shots).

    Bottom line/TL;DR, we don’t have to know as much as you say to make safe and effective vaccines. As long as the “you have a case, or a serious case” scoring is honest, which you’re telling us is not true for the acellular pertussis vaccine. I have no data on that, me and my siblings got the whole cell variety long ago, but for COVID-19 for example see how objective Moderna’s is for serious cases, on page 11. Another factor is political pressure. Obviously there’s a lot involved in COVID-19, but there also was with the whole cell pertussis vaccine, in what I’m interpreting you and Wikipedia to say was very much in the wrong direction.

    • Replies: @ConqueringFools
  203. Kukavaan says:
    @MEH 0910

    “Never again, says xxxxx xxxxx, who, like hundreds of other young Swedes suffered debilitating narcolepsy”

    There are a lot of people living in Sweden who are not Swedes. They may have Swedish passports but still may have deep hatred for the Swedes.

  204. @John Johnson

    Then why aren’t the shot givers explaining that to people? Clearly, many of them are not – which seems utterly stupid to me.

    Also, it doesn’t explain the ones for whom their illness kicked in 2/3 days later and lasted for 7 to 9 days.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  205. Vidi says:

    I have not read the whole thread, but I feel the following needs saying. I apologize if I’m repeating someone else.

    The vaccines will not cure Covid
    The vaccines will not prevent people from contracting Covid
    The vaccines will not prevent Covid-related hospitalizations
    The vaccines will not prevent Covid-caused deaths

    The smallpox vaccine did not cure smallpox, yet the smallpox virus is now extinct throughout the world. The disease was horrible and seemingly everywhere — yet it is entirely gone. When was the last time that you heard of anyone having smallpox? Decades ago, perhaps. Why did such a widespread virus disappear? Because of a vaccine.

    Similarly, a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 can entirely eliminate COVID-19, even though the vaccine won’t cure you if a large amount of the coronavirus is already in your body.

    Whitney whines that some of the new vaccines may have side effects. Perhaps they do. But if the side effects are unlikely, the vaccines are still worth taking, because (1) killing the virus is worth taking some risk; and (2) a vaccine’s side effects are not contagious.

    If we want to exterminate SARS-CoV-2, as we’ve exterminated smallpox, everyone needs to take vaccines — and people like Whitney are not helping, to say the least.

    • Disagree: The Real World, RadicalCenter
    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @Vojkan
  206. utu says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    Isolation and characterization of the virus was done by many different labs in many different places.

    Isolation, Sequence, Infectivity, and Replication Kinetics of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7454076/

    SARS-CoV-2 isolation from the first reported patients in Brazil and establishment of a coordinated task network
    https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0074-02762020000100344

    First isolation of SARS-CoV-2 from clinical samples in India
    https://www.ijmr.org.in/article.asp?issn=0971-5916;year=2020;volume=151;issue=2;spage=244;epage=250;aulast=Sarkale

    Virus isolation of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) for diagnostic and research purposes
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031302520309399

    Isolation and characterization of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 in Turkey
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0238614

  207. @GeeBee

    This is off topic, but it is clear that you know your subject well, and your throwaway remark regarding HIV’s mode of action reminded me that I find myself puzzled right now, after reading Prof. Peter Duesberg’s take on HIV and its relationship to AIDS. Essentially, he believes that there is no relationship; that HIV does not cause AIDS at all, but is a harmless passenger virus

    I have no informed opinion on the subject, my and my partner’s chance of getting AIDS were infinitesimal, and at the same time prevention is really, really what you want to do with this forever virus, if it is indeed the retrovirus HIV, and even if not, no one’s come up with a cure, which if HIV is not the causative agent would be expected, and the drugs to not die of it, well, they’re obviously best avoided.

    All that said, it was observed that “HIV causes AIDS!” was science by press conference, this is the most intensely politicized disease ever, and bad hypotheses often don’t die out due to a lack of evidence, but due to the scientists who bitterly cling to them dying out. I would point you at Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions but it’s dreadfully written and will put someone dedicated to science to sleep.

    But, say, look at the still not abandoned amyloid hypothesis for Alzheimer’s. For 30 f***ing years it’s been a catastrophic dry hole for treatments, yet I’ve read accounts about how you still don’t become a Ph.D. in this field, or get grants, unless you pay obeisance to it, even if you know it’s bunk and are really trying something else. This is not hardly as politicized as AIDS except in that research community, and you should be able to find yourself such accounts. Of course, they’ll only confirm the Kuhn hypothesis, not many of your larger questions about AIDS.

    And, hey, see my previous comment harping on empiricism. If the drugs that make AIDS not a fairly quick death sentence actually do make AIDS not a fairly quick death sentence, then it hardly matters if they’re hindering HIV, or another virus that just happens to be inhibited by it, could be a retrovirus with many of the same molecular targets. For that matter, there’s a coronavirus enzyme that’s much like one of HIV’s, but not enough for HIV drugs to be effective against it.

    • Replies: @GeeBee
  208. @John Q Duped

    There is ZERO denying that vaccines (usually the adjuvants used it them, actually) can cause serious injury or death. The US Govt has paid-out billions in claims from people because of those injuries. Get this:

    Since 1988, over 22,507 petitions have been filed with the VICP. Over that 30-year time period, 19,356 petitions have been adjudicated, with 7,666 of those determined to be compensable, while 11,690 were dismissed. Total compensation paid over the life of the program is approximately $4.4 billion. That is from the PDF link at top here: https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/data/index.html

    Do a skim around the table of contents on the right and note that many pages were updated Nov 2020. Check this out — the listed injuries: https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/vaccine-injury-table.pdf
    Note on Pg 3: XIV. Seasonal influenza vaccines — D. Guillain-Barré Syndrome

    That illness is a humdinger! I knew someone who had that and spent 8 months in the hospital; out of work a full year.

  209. Alden says:
    @Just another serf

    Do you wear your mask at all times in common areas of your building, laundry room, lobby hall going to dump your trash? . Do you do your laundry at 4 am to avoid other tenants? Do you keep your mask and gloves on when driving your cat? Do you cover the steering wheel shift and radio with sanitizer before and after each trip? Do you sterilize doorknobs faucets etc twice a day even if you live alone? Have you refused to see any family member or friend since the covid plague began?

    Then a 🌟 gold star for you for being the most cooperative in your class ⭐️⭐️ ⭐️ and good citizen 🏅 🎖 🥇 of the year.

  210. @The Real World

    Then why aren’t the shot givers explaining that to people? Clearly, many of them are not – which seems utterly stupid to me.

    It is the job of the schools to educate people on what the flu is and how vaccines work. The people giving the shots don’t have time to lecture.

    Also, it doesn’t explain the ones for whom their illness kicked in 2/3 days later and lasted for 7 to 9 days.

    It doesn’t explain anything because you can’t get the flu from a flu shot. It’s not possible since the virus is dead.

    The only way to get it would be from the person giving the flu shot or someone in the vicinity.

    People that think the shot can give you the flu don’t understand how vaccines work.

  211. @Greta Handel

    He responded to you with another 600 words of pilpul.

    Nobody puts this much tedious time and words into vaccines (of all things) unless he is getting paid. This remarkable flourish of energy is not believable as a selfless act of goodwill. He protests too much, methinks.

  212. utu says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    “Sweden is looking pretty good these days.” – Not really. Their death per capita rate is 10 times higher than in Finland and Norway, countries of similar human development index and similar population density. Finland’s and Norway’s lockdowns, social distancing and most importantly track+test+quarantine that followed lockdowns worked and saved many lives. If Sweden emulated its neighbors 6,000 Swedes would be still alive.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
  213. @Peripatetic Itch

    Or if not a day or two, then certainly a week or two. Or is it a month or two?

    Some of us have a more jaundiced view of medical advice that seems designed to get us to accept the establishment narrative.

    Yea I noticed when people here were suggesting that doctors and nurses were lying about bed shortages as part of a deep state conspiracy. I was in fact scolded for showing a video that was secretly taped by a nurse.

    The flu shot doesn’t give you the flu. Confirmation bias doesn’t change that.

  214. @Emslander

    I’m immediately skeptical about the validity of the many claims made about this virus.

    Specifically because, and what claims? You can be brief, I just want to get the shape of your skepticism. Also, while we’re at it, what level of STEM biology and/or medicine background do you have to interpret it?

    That makes me skeptical about the vaccine. Maybe I’m crazy, but the patterns that all of this has followed indicate chicanery and skullduggery, financial chicanery and political skullduggery.

    That follows, but also maybe “embrace the healing power of ‘and’?” Tyrants are going to tyrant. Drug companies are going to make profits or go out of business. A lethal epidemic or pandemic justifies emergency procedures.

    The vaccine has probably been developed using human fetal cells, though you can’t get a straight answer to the question.

    Really? Note also a failure to answer, or clearly, is possibly a “F*** you, deplorable!”, and plenty in the Left, which today owns “SCIENCE!!!,” hate us with an unquenchable heat (good thing their own are also going to get these vaccines…), and would consider it to be a badge of honor to gratuitously use such cell lines.

    If the authorities can force pro-life Christians to use their cannibalized medicines, then they win that battle forever. Seems just too advantageous to the evil side of a moral issue.

    You’ll need to explain your theology behind that.

    I’m psychologically inclined to believe nothing the government tells us.

    Problem is, that’s as or more likely to get you killed than believing everything they say, this side of the revolution. Do you ignore hurricane and tornado warnings?? Localized crime statistics? Product recalls?

    • Replies: @Emslander
  215. @Vidi

    The smallpox vaccine did not cure smallpox, yet the smallpox virus is now extinct throughout the world. The disease was horrible and seemingly everywhere — yet it is entirely gone. When was the last time that you heard of anyone having smallpox?

    I guess polio also just also happened to go away after the vaccine.

    That’s a fascinating coincidence.

    The anti-vax movement is headed by a liberal (John Kennedy Jr) and an ex MTV host (Jenny McCarthy). Quite the company that anti-vaxxers here keep. Maybe you should solicit medical device from a carnival operator as well.

  216. @John Johnson

    You could offer me $10, 000 to take a Covid jab and I’d turn you down.
    — Can’t undo what’s injected
    — The possible injury could be devastating
    — Low mortality rate for the virus so…
    — I’m 95% sure I had the Wu Flu many months ago

    Next….

  217. Liza says:

    If Sweden emulated its neighbors 6,000 Swedes would be still alive.

    If the Swedes, and all other people living in places with a long winter, were to supplement with generous doses of Vitamin D-3, they’d probably still be alive. Someone here linked to a statement claiming that in the northern countries, supplementation and fortification of foods with Vitamin D is common. The actual amounts, I suspect, are not sufficient. You would have to eat tons of the fortified foods to get what you need to give you immunity. And the dark skinned people of Sweden, etc. need much more.

  218. Barr says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    Too early to tell .Sweden’s journey is still unguided shot in the dark . They are providing data for future analysis . That’s all we can say
    Vitamin D is a hormone in addition being a vitamin that acts as coenzyme and catalyst in addition to calcium metabolism . It’s deficiency can impact heart , brain , bone and immunology.
    But the dose response or blood level doesn’t tell us where the effects are most consistent with the blood level .
    It’s not soluble in water .
    One can take any amount of Vitamin B complex but not Vit A or D or E . It can be toxic .

    What we know that male, obese , Latino , certain comorbidity, Blood group A , and density of exposure determine the chances of serious illness .

    Indian are deficient in Vit D along with other vitamin and micronutrients . Their morbidity or mortality is pretty low even taking into account of the poor reliability of the data ( one can’t hide death , one can hide infection or mild symptoms )

  219. This is one of the articles I didn’t think I’d find interesting enough to read through so I scrolled over to get to the comments but then I didn’t find most of them interesting either.

    Interestingly, Meena the AI bot at #127 commented:

    Interesting situation

    ??? Some AI!

  220. John Wear says:

    The following are some questions concerning the Covid-19 pandemic:

    If the masks work—Why the six feet?

    If the six feet works—Why the masks?

    If both of the above work—Why the lockdowns?

    If all three of the above work—Why the vaccine?

    If the vaccine is safe—Why protect it with a no liability clause?

    If the vaccine is safe—Why not test it on animals first before using it on humans?

    If SARS-CoV-2 exists—Why has it never been isolated?

    If SARS-CoV-2 has never been isolated—How can an effective vaccine be developed?

    If the RT-PCR test works—Why so many false positives?

    If Kary Mullis, the inventor of the RT-PCR test who conveniently died in August 2019, said his test shouldn’t be used to diagnose infectious diseases—Why use it to detect SARS-CoV-2?

    If there is an epidemic—Why so many empty hospitals?

    If large numbers of people are dying from SARS-CoV-2—Why so many fake causes of death on death certificates?

    If SARS-CoV-2 exists—Why give doctors financial incentives to diagnose SARS-CoV-2?

    If the official COVID-19 narrative is defensible—Why censor people who dispute this narrative?

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
    • LOL: Zarathustra
  221. @utu

    I made it quite clear what I meant by “these days”, which is the last few weeks and the so-called second wave. And apart from the early crunch nursing-home deaths. You throw up the deaths over the entire 10 months of the pandemic, including the first wave, and make only a case for your own dissimulation.

    European rates have been rising markedly this past month. Both deaths and cases. Swedish cases and deaths rose somewhat and then began to decline. Swedish deaths have been down to under 20 deaths a day for the past week or so. And quite comparable to those of Norway and Finland, given the population differences. That rate seems unlikely to be higher than normal rates for this time of year.
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    There are any number of European countries in a panic. Sweden isn’t.

    • Replies: @utu
  222. @John Fisher

    Nobody puts this much tedious time and words into vaccines (of all things) unless he is getting paid.

    Says a man who’s definitely not a scientist, nor someone for whom STEM is a calling. That’s not even getting into the “weaponized autism” of /pol/, did you see how they hounded the “we will not divide us” broken former child actor all the way to a cabin in a remote part of Finland? In what ended up being my paid field, it’s what keeps me working for weeks chasing a wild pointer bug back when that was very hard on an IBM-PC.

    This remarkable flourish of energy is not believable as a selfless act of goodwill.

    Again, you have absolutely no concept of intellectual pleasures. And selfless? Did you miss how this is part of making my decisions on whether or not to take a vaccine, and which, next year?

    It is your libel that is getting tedious. Plonk.

    • Replies: @John Fisher
    , @Anonymous
  223. @That Would Be Telling

    perhaps we have a case a mass hysteria

    You, certainly, are a case a mass hysteria.

  224. @John Fisher

    Corvinus in a lab coat.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  225. @John Wear

    You do realize that by asking these simple questions you undermine libtard narrative that enabled massive fraud in 2020 elections? One demerit.
    You do realize that by asking these simple questions you undermine the case for huge profits of pharmaceuticals producing vaccines? Second demerit.
    You do realize that by asking these simple questions you make MSM look as stupid and lying as they are? Third demerit.
    To summarize, you condemned yourself to a reeducation camp. Just wait and you’ll see.

  226. @cronkitsche

    When the black will start to fall like flies, than even big Farma must admit that vaccine needs a little revision.

  227. @John Wear

    If the masks work—Why the six feet?

    Surgical grade plus or minus masks don’t work very well, and the Asian experience suggests a lot more diligence and rigor in using them is required.

    If the six feet works—Why the masks?

    Six feet at best is a compromise to lessen transmission while making the distance not entirely ludicrous. There’s no way it’s really very or maybe any good indoors, particularly in confined, low ceiling spaces. Glenn “Instapundit” Reynolds has been wondering why there hasn’t been an emphasis on circulation of air, but that of course would upset the Greens.

    If both of the above work—Why the lockdowns?

    They at best lessen transmission, plus tyrants are going to tyrant. It says something when a couple of governors make it almost illegal to plant and tend a garden.

    If all three of the above work—Why the vaccine?

    See above, they’re just mitigations. If you roll 95 on the dice, you’re done with COVID-19.

    If the vaccine is safe—Why protect it with a no liability clause?

    Because the government is cheap, and doesn’t want to spend 10-100 times more per dose, to the extent any vaccine companies would still sell products in the US with its insane civil legal system. This has been the policy in the US for a long time. It’s too much to ask laymen juries to tease out the cause of a correlated bad event with a vaccine, and real science often can’t do that either. Easier to pay people who roll snake eyes, and some will absolutely be maimed and killed by vaccines, they make sense because overall they save a great deal of morbidity and mortality. Or would you like a little smallpox infection tomorrow?

    If the vaccine is safe—Why not test it on animals first before using it on humans?

    Might have something to do with the words “pandemic” and “emergency.” It was a risky gamble to do it in parallel for the mRNA Phase 1 participants that paid off handsomely. Also, by then the companies might have had good data on the general safety of mRNA vaccine candidates, in theory they’ll be best combination of safety and efficacy ever. So far the trial data is consistent with that hope.

    If SARS-CoV-2 exists—Why has it never been isolated?

    Lie, covered in great detail in this topic. Try reading the previous comments before displaying your gross ignorance for all.

    If SARS-CoV-2 has never been isolated—How can an effective vaccine be developed?

    Because the mRNA and viral vector vaccines only need the genetic code for the virus, obtained through RT-PCR. But virus isolates to use on animals in a BSL-3 lab would be needed, and that’s another reason to steer clear of the real virus as much as possible, much less risk.

    If the RT-PCR test works—Why so many false positives?

    Citation please, and not bulls*** that insists that 0 times 2^32 is greater than zero.

    If Kary Mullis, the inventor of the RT-PCR test who conveniently died in August 2019, said his test shouldn’t be used to diagnose infectious diseases—Why use it to detect SARS-CoV-2?

    Bzzzt! He was one of several key people in developing the PRC DNA amplification technique, not the testing use of it. But I can see him learning a lot about its use in tests over the years.

    If there is an epidemic—Why so many empty hospitals?

    Not within 160 miles in all directions from where I live.

    If large numbers of people are dying from SARS-CoV-2—Why so many fake causes of death on death certificates?

    Now that’s a good question. First cut, we’re well along in becoming a 3rd world country? But are these statistically significant? And how about all cause mortality?

    If SARS-CoV-2 exists—Why give doctors financial incentives to diagnose SARS-CoV-2?

    Citation needed, I’ve never heard that about doctors, although given how many today work for the man like hospital complexes….

    If the official COVID-19 narrative is defensible—Why censor people who dispute this narrative?

    A lot of the COVID-19 Official Narrative is not defensible, but totalitarians are going to clamp down anyways. Power corrupts … again, why was it necessary to outlaw the purchase of seeds in two states?

    • Replies: @John Wear
    , @Zarathustra
    , @anon
  228. @theMann

    The Shingles vaccine however, is consistent: it is painfully nasty and produces severe reactions in a measurable %age of people.

    I repeat my question: which shingles vaccine, the old you must be 60 or older to get a 4X dose of the live virus for chicken pox, or the new recombinant one where the age limit is 50?

    And neither of us can judge the risk/reward question without numbers we don’t have handy, but I sure hope you acknowledge a lot of people have much worse shingles cases than your’s or mine. One professor I knew was in serious pain for years, perhaps indefinitely. And of course it can kill.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  229. utu says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    You can’t pick time periods that suit your argument. (Hitler apologist at the uR: In the spring of 1945 Nazis were not killing Jews.)

    Swedish deaths have been down to under 20 deaths a day for the past week or so. And quite comparable to those of Norway and Finland, given the population differences. – NO! Just check the data. Since October 1 number of deaths

    Sweden 827
    Norway 58
    Finland 55

    The death rate per capita is about 8 times higher in Sweden in last 30 days. Though Sweden has moved closer in its policies to Finland and Norway in recent two months by adding extra social distancing countermeasures and increasing testing. The chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell is possibly on the way out.

    The key to success to control this pandemic is (1) First lower the infection rate to the manageable level (e.g. by a lockdown), (2) Do effective infection tracking to contain local flare ups and outbreaks. You can’t do (2) if your rate is too high.

    Czechia and Poland did (1) and basically stopped the epidemic partly because the infection rate when they introduce lockdowns and closed borders was lower than, say in Italy and also because they got into masking particularly in Czechia. But then in the Summer they got complacent thinking the have already won and did not do effective and comprehensive tracking of new infections and they lost control in September and October. Finland and Norway did not make the same mistake as Czechia and Poland made.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Itch
    , @glib
  230. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You might enjoy watching the following two videos:

    1.

    Dr. Andrew Kaufmann has explicitly said that no one has isolated the SARS-CoV-2 virus according to Robert Koch’s four postulates. Dr. Kaufmann is not lying or grossly ignorant.

    2.


    This is the video of Dr. Carrie Madej that I most recommend, although all of her videos are excellent. Most of Dr. Madej’s videos have been removed from YouTube, so she has moved them all to Bitchute.

    • Thanks: John Fisher
  231. Abbybwood says:
    @Digital Samizdat

    Let’s be clear about this Covid-19 “vaccine”.

    There will be two jabs, not one.

    “There will be pain” is the mantra these big Pharma docs are trying to tell us after the first jab then the mandatory 2nd jab in three weeks. And they won’t even tell us about all the “boosters” that will be mandatory down the road.

    Side effects just from the jabs are likely to be severe headaches, pain at the injection sites, fevers of 101 and higher, severe body aches lasting three to four days. And they say the 2nd jab will cause more severe symptoms than the first.

    I mentioned all this to Dr. Kelly Victory on the John Philips K-ABC radio program about ten days ago. I asked her if those at the CDC are concerned that a large percentage of those who get the jab and experience moderate to severe side effects will be unlikely to go for a second round of symptoms worse than the first and she agreed. She said, “It seems that actually getting Covid-19 in many would be milder than getting the jabs”.

    And all doctors and nurses administering these shots had better be certain that there is informed consent about the possibility of these side effects.

    The irony here is that many of the low wage “essential workers” who will be told, “Get both jabs or no job” will have ZERO paid medical for when they get too sick to work adding major insult to injury.

    I wonder if they will be asked to read the insert before the jabs detailing every possible side effect including the life-altering narcolepsy that is being reported?

    NO ONE should be pressured in ANY WAY to take these jabs for Covid-19 until at least two years have passed to see what any long term side effects may have happened.

    Abbybwood, R.N.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  232. LadyTheo says:
    @Getaclue

    Take a Xanax and call me in the morning.

  233. LadyTheo says:
    @omegabooks

    You sound … sane. Ad hominem attacks are proof of a superior intellect.

    I live around mountain lions and bears, so your point is?

    And I don’t plan to force a vaccine on anyone. As I said more than once, I don’t think this virus merits a vaccine. But here we are.

    So go breathe into a paper bag or something.

  234. LadyTheo says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    What does your comment even mean? Animal testing was done. That is a fact. You are just…lying?

    Animals are used to reveal short-term toxicities–things like cardiac issues (dogs are helpful) and horses. But we don’t administer therapies to animals and then wait years to see what happens. As I said, that would be counter-productive. And give us irrelevant information. So that is transparently evil?

    Do you just type random words and think that you are clever? Try engaging with the facts rather than spouting ad hom attacks.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  235. geokat62 says:

    This one’s for you, Ron.

    A must-watch video.

    Stunning analysis and data for England presented by an expert team of four scientists. They dive deep into the COVID-19 death curve, by analyzing the data using both a linear and logarithmic scale they’re able provide irrefutable proof that government interventions (mandatory lockdowns and masks) had absolutely no impact on the death curve.

    Their analysis is simply stunning!

    • Replies: @utu
  236. @utu

    You can’t pick time periods that suit your argument.

    I made a limited argument about a particular time period, which if trends continue proves Sweden’s herd immunity strategy is working. I can choose whatever time periods I want as long as I make the connections clear. You were the one who obfuscated the time periods and the argument to make your point.

    Hitler apologist

    You, sir are a liar. [Mods: I believe this is beyond the pale. Please consider this as an official complaint.]

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Zarathustra
  237. Pilot says:

    Gee, I think we have bigger problems than this whole vaccine thing. Besides, most businesses, etc. will mandate you must take the vaccine to stay employed. This isn’t America anymore, you know?

  238. utu says:
    @Peripatetic Itch

    Just acknowledge that you have opened your mouth before checking the death rates data for Sweden, Norway and Finland in the last momth. Sweden does not look good ‘these days’ or any days when compared with Norway and Finland. Sweden had 10 times higher death rate throughout the whole epidemic and 8 times higher in the last 30 days. You should refrain from making arguments using Sweden to support your silly ideas. Or even better: you should stop having any ideas because you are not qualified. Just read MSM newspapers.

  239. @That Would Be Telling

    Why the six feet?
    So people get used to six feet. (under)

  240. Paul C. says:
    @onebornfree

    Correct.

    Here is CDC’s data showing the Infection Fatality Ratio. If you take the inverse, you have the Survival Rate.

    Scenario 5: Current Best Estimate
    based on the latest surveillance data and scientific knowledge (CDC’s words)

    Infection Fatality Ratio
    0-19 years: 0.00003
    20-49 years: 0.0002
    50-69 years: 0.005
    70+ years: 0.054

    Survival rate
    0-19 years: 99.99997
    20-49 years: 99.9998
    50-69 years: 99.995
    70+ years: 99.946

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

  241. Now here is a most curious thing.
    It seems that the Brits have mobilised their “77th Brigade’s Defence Cultural Specialist Unit” to “stamp out anti-vaxx propaganda online”:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/508163-army-information-war-vaccines/

    I’d imagine that other governments have been making similar preparations for the rollout.

    Any CEO of a big pharmaceutical would be negligent to their shareholders if their PR departments were not also mobilised.
    (here I’m envisaging work-from-home projects farmed out to all the drug reps grounded by the pandemic.)

    Not that we have any here. I don’t think for a minute that a professional propagandist would submit reams of material that lull their audience to somnolence.

    But I do wonder why they don’t spread their pearls amongst like-minded folk such as at MoA?
    A title like, say, “Here’s Why You Should Skip the Covid Vaccine” must be like waving a red flag.

    • Agree: Notsofast
    • Thanks: John Fisher
  242. frontier says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    That’s one thing it can’t do. The fundamental paradigm of molecular genetics is DNA -> RNA -> proteins. To go in the reverse direction you need a hack, like retroviruses’ reverse transcriptase.

    What you quoted is a popular but wrong expression of the Central Dogma, what it actually states is that one cannot get RNA or DNA out of unstructured proteins. That’s all. RNA/DNA form/to RNA/DNA are all possible transfers of genetic information, all four combinations are possible.
    Specifically the RNA to DNA conversion process is called reverse transcription, requires an enzyme which you confused for the name of the process. That enzyme might be present in a vaccine or might be produced by the genetic material in it, some viruses do use it. We know nothing about these vaccines and the makers are shielded from lawsuits, so there is no way to force them to reveal any info.

    To some it up, it is possible for an RNA vaccine to alter host’s DNA. Your naked assertions are wrong and its telling that you use cop outs like “you need a hack”, as if the entire concoction isn’t based on a multitude of hacks.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  243. @Peripatetic Itch

    Swedes are not very social people they keep for themselves and they stay mostly at home. Or around the house.

  244. Franz says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    The original one which was a 4X dose of the live virus vaccine against chicken pox for the young? Or the newer recombinant one that’s a lot more effective?

    The new, two-jab one. It was an MD who told me the ratio and I know three people who were too afraid to get the second jab after one of their pals got it and had to be hospitalized twice. And that was in the summer and he’s still having issues.

    To be fair, the vaccine warning does indicate a side effect might mimic shingles itself. Either I know a lot of sensitive people, which I find unlikely, or that stuff is nasty.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  245. Tor597 says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Which vaccine would you take today if given free choice?

    Are there any real differences between the Pfizer and moderns vaccine?

    What about the Jansen vaccine makes it interesting?

  246. Tor597 says:
    @utu

    Utu chill man.

    I agree that Whitney has been the worst here at Unz for awhile. But I enjoy contrarian views and I learn a lot from people who argue the points like has happened in this thread.

    I was actually hoping you would comment here. Given free choice, which vaccine would you take and why?

    • Replies: @utu
  247. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    You should refrain from making arguments using Sweden to support your silly ideas.

    Good advice. You should heed it.

    The Last Word on Sweden Viral Issue – Understanding the Reality!

    Description:

    Title says it all. I’m sick of hearing falsehoods and nonsense about Sweden. Why don’t people just look at the bloody data? Well – why don’t they?

    The video refers to a report that addresses the issue of Sweden having a higher death rate relative to its Nordic neighbours, 16 Possible Factors for Sweden’s High Covid Death Rate among the Nordics

    While the report acknowledges the driver for the difference could be due to lockdowns:

    It is plausible that Sweden’s lighter lockdown accounts for but a small part of Sweden’s higher Covid death rate.

    … it puts forward 16 other explanations for the difference, chief among them the concept of “dry-tinder.”

    Here’s the Abstract of the report:

    What accounts for Sweden’s high Covid death rate among the Nordics? One factor could be Sweden’s lighter lockdown. But we suggest 15 other possible factors. Most significant are: (1) the “dry-tinder” situation in Sweden (we suggest that this crystal-clear factor alone accounts for 25 to 50% of Sweden’s Covid death toll); (2) Stockholm’s larger population; (3) Sweden’s higher immigrant population; (4) in Sweden immigrants probably more often work in the elderly care system; (5) Sweden has a greater proportion of people in elderly care; (6) Stockholm’s “sport-break” was a week later than the other three capital cities; (7) Stockholm’s system of elderly care collects especially vulnerable people in nursing homes; (8) Stockholmers might travel more to the Alpine regions. Other possible factors are: (9) the Swedish elderly and health care system may have done less to try to cure elderly Covid patients; (10) Sweden may have been relatively understocked in protective equipment and sanitizers; (11) Sweden may have been slower to separate Covid patients in nursing homes; (12) Sweden may have been slower to implement staff testing and changes in protocols and equipage; (13) Sweden elderly care workers may have done more cross-facility work; (14) Sweden might have larger nursing homes; (15) Sweden might be quicker to count a death “a Covid death.” We give evidence for these other 15 possible factors. It is plausible that Sweden’s lighter lockdown accounts for but a small part of Sweden’s higher Covid death rate.

    https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=754103009004066113111090118026108111121055086045016032125100092098082070089115116076096031059124007061000025005119094124099066024041045040023010012119093113127069041086007024090093087083067127066030092086000125083102111109113069016069069085114074029&EXT=pdf

  248. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    He contributed to confusion and reinforced the feeble minded in their deranged beliefs that in general weakened the ability of our society to respond effectively to the pandemic.

    By “responding effectively” I hope your not including mandatory mask wearing?

    Excerpt from, New Danish Study Finds Masks Don’t Protect Wearers From COVID Infection:

    “Researchers in Denmark reported on Wednesday that surgical masks did not protect the wearers against infection with the coronavirus in a large randomized clinical trial,” the New York Times reports.

    https://fee.org/articles/new-danish-study-finds-masks-don-t-protect-wearers-from-covid-infection/

    Oh, and see comment #247 to see how ineffective lockdowns have been.

  249. @The Real World

    The first answer is her answer; the second her alibi.

  250. @utu

    Sweden deaths are within the parameters of a normal flu season. The numbers in Norway are suspiciously low. An average flu season there is about 3 times larger than current “Covid” deaths. And spikes can be double that.

    So there is nothing extraordinary happening in Sweden. Probably in Norway, where they are not counting flu deaths for this year, the numbers are low because the testing is low. In Sweden they just record the flu deaths as normal, and mark them as Covid to prop the narrative. But always being the most sensible of Scandinavians, they decided to not trash their economy because of a normal flu season.

    Perhaps they also realize they are particularly vulnerable to an economic recession due to feeding all of the middle east, so going into lockdown would be a disaster. But I’m sure that must be true for many of the “affected” countries, so credit to Sweden for remaining sane in this case. Hitler proven right once more.

    • Replies: @utu
  251. @utu

    utu,

    Since you’ve been following the subject closely I was wondering if you could answer a question. All those deaths in past years ascribed to influenza are they based on some kind of estimates or on a review of death certificates? I mean were all those deaths actually recorded as being due to influenza or say pneumonia, etc.?

    And now they may be recording deaths as due to Covid-19 even though they may have been due to pneumonia, etc. If so this will make comparisons difficult and getting to the bottom of all this even more arduous and onerous.

    • Replies: @utu
  252. Glenda says:
    @Franz

    Both my adult son and I developed a nasty, intense hive like rash after a pertussis vaccination. His cleared up after a few weeks, mine now starting to clear after 3 months. Certainly causes me concern how we could react to the Cv19 vaccine.

  253. utu says:
    @Tor597

    But I enjoy contrarian views and I learn a lot from people who argue the points like has happened in this thread.

    What possibly can you learn from ignorance and specious arguments that are being repeated over and over again regardless of how many times it was demonstrated that they were wrong? While discussions here at UR are academic and thus inconsequential the beliefs promoted here have consequences. Do you want to live in society where a large segment of it believes in all kinds of nonsense that it won’t be able to make rational and educated decisions. So I take it seriously that the UR decided to promulgate and increase the nonsense and thus contribute to the increasing level of ignorance. Ron Unz being libertarian does no feel responsible for the society but he wants to have large traffic and Steve Sailer won’t purge his commenters because, well, pecunia non olet. Actually this is a very sad case. The UR webzine is marginalizing itself more and more even if its traffic increases but only because it attracts all kinds of ignoramuses and deplorables and antisocial elements. What next? Pornography, drugs and gambling?

    “which vaccine would you take” – I know nothing about it. They all look good and we will learn more. And there will be Johnson and Johnson.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  254. @That Would Be Telling

    Such complications are not unheard of. About fifteen years back a relative of mine got the year’s approved flu vaccine. It caused some kind of autoimmune reaction in him that left him paraplegic with permanent spinal cord damage. Autoimmune disorders do run in the family. How possible it is to generalize from this, I do not know. But I know I’m certainly not going to get any of these experimental vaccines.

    Given that MINITRU tells us that people are getting infected multiple times, one after the other, weeks or months apart:

    https://www.rt.com/news/508218-italian-grandma-covid19-three-times/ This 101 year old woman, we are told, has gotten the Wubonic Plague three times this year. The Official Truth is that this is commonplace.

    This strongly suggests that antibodies confer no immunity. This is not unusual. The list of pathogens for which it is practical to create vaccines is short. There are many pathogens for which the human immune system creates antibodies that are not terribly helpful in fighting off the infection, from HIV to the common cold to cancer cells. The smallpox and measles and polio vaccines are, biochemically speaking, the low-hanging fruit. Over the course of the 20th Century Western medical science found pretty much every case in which a vaccine was possible, and created one. Genetic engineering and tinkering with memory RNA are unnecessary. Destroy the pathogen with chemicals or radiation, inject the patient with dead virus protein shells and distinctive bits of bacterial cell wall, the human immune system does the rest. Except when it doesn’t. Sometimes antibodies don’t help. There is no cancer vaccine. There is no AIDS vaccine.

    And if antibodies confer no immunity, a vaccine is impossible even in principle, no matter how many $billions Uncle Sugar throws down that bottomless pit, quod erat demonstrandum. These same researchers and pharmaceutical companies have been trying to create an AIDS vaccine for forty years now, and have nothing to show for it, other than fat dividends for the stockholders and summer cottages in Tahiti. (“More studies are needed!”)

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  255. Vojkan says:
    @Vidi

    because (1) killing the virus is worth taking some risk

    Like the risk of killing or permanently disabling a few people who otherwise wouldn’t have been affected by the virus? How much “collateral damage” in the “war” against the virus do you deem acceptable? And who are you to decide? If you want to take the shot, nobody’s stopping you. You’ll be protected from those who don’t want to take the shot.

    As for diseases that have supposedly been eradicated by vaccines, 1) correlation doesn’t mean causation 2) they haven’t. The germs/viruses causing the diseases are still there, there have been registered cases of supposedly eradicated diseases like tuberculosis, diphtheria or poliomyelitis in Western Europe in recent years; however, improved hygiene of populations in the developed world prevents them to proliferate to quantities large enough to cause epidemics. In places with high density of population and without running water, infectious diseases still cause devastation, in spite of – scolds would say thanks to – campaigns of mass vaccination.

    So take your shot if you wish but for most people with common sense, the goal is not to exterminate the virus, which if it is a natural virus is unachievable – it will mutate endlessly to avoid extermination -, it is to not get sick, which is achievable by other means than injection of Big Pharma’s crap.

    PS: and no, I am not an anti-vaxxer, I do think that vaccinations have done a good job containing tuberculosis, smallpox or rabies. Yet, I also consider that mandatory vaccinations that carry even so-called negligible risk of lethal or debilitating side effects against any disease, let alone diseases that are extremely seldom lethal or debilitating, are criminal. I don’t play dice with lives.

  256. GeeBee says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Many thanks for your reply. Actually, Peter Duesberg maintains that it is the anti-HIV drugs that frequently cause death from one of the (many) ailments commonly said to have been contracted ‘once full-blown AIDS sets in’. In other words, the drugs cause many cases of AIDS. As Duesberg’s logic has it:

    ‘AIDS is (1) non-contagious; (2) is non-random, because 85% of AIDS-causing drugs are used by males, particularly sexually active homosexuals between 25 and 49 years of age, and (3) would follow the drug epidemics chronologically.

    ‘Indeed, AIDS has increased from negligible numbers in the early 1980s to about 80,000 annual cases in the early ’90s and has since declined to about 50,000 cases (US figures). In the same period, recreational drug users have increased from negligible numbers to millions by the late 1980s, and have since decreased possibly twofold.

    ‘However, AIDS has declined less because since 1987 increasing numbers of mostly healthy, HIV-positive people, currently about 200,000, use anti-HIV drugs that cause AIDS and other diseases. At least 64 scientific studies, government legislation, and non-scientific reports document that recreational drugs cause AIDS and other diseases. Likewise, the AIDS literature, the drug manufacturers, and non-scientific reports confirm that anti-HIV drugs cause AIDS and other diseases in humans and animals. In sum, the AIDS dilemma could be solved by banning anti-HIV drugs, and by pointing out that drugs cause AIDS –modeled on the successful anti-smoking campaign.’

    Most interesting. He also compares what he call African AIDS to European and American AIDS, and concludes that in the latter, his analysis: ‘ indicates that American and European AIDS epidemics exhibit the characteristics of diseases caused by non-contagious, chemical or physical factors NOT viruses.’ Similarly, in Africa: ‘ it is evident from the WHO data that the African AIDS epidemic is not following the bell-shaped curve of an exponential rise and subsequent sharp drop with immunity, that are typical of infectious epidemics. Instead it drags on like a nutritionally or environmentally caused disease, that steadily affects what appears to be only a very small percentage of the African population.’

    He goes on to show that the African deaths from ‘AIDS’ cannot statistically be separated from the many ‘conventional counterparts’ among the ailments that afflict that continent, including “weight loss over 10%, chronic diarrhea for more than a month, fever for more than a month, persistent cough, generalized pruritic dermatitis, recurrent herpes zoster (shingles), candidiasis oral and pharyngeal, chronic or persistent herpes, cryptococcal meningitis, Kaposi’s sarcoma”, and thus, he concludes that African AIDS is also not a specific clinical disease, but a battery of previously known and thus totally unspecific diseases, rather than the result of drugs.

    See here:

    https://duesberg.com/subject/africa2.html

  257. MarkU says:

    I see the pharmaceutical hasbara is in overdrive on this topic, a sure sign that something is amiss. It was recently reported that the British army has a section devoted to countering online ‘disinformation’ on the subject (naturally by ‘disinformation’ they mean anything contrary to the official narrative) Whenever I find censorship of open debate or covert propaganda, my working assumption is that truth is on the other side.

    I started off as agnostic on the issue of Covid-19 vaccines though I definitely wasn’t going to be among the first to take them. But now there is such an obvious online campaign to push the vaccines, I am now firmly in the other camp. It is NOT the job of governments or pharmaceutical companies to wage covert information war against the public, this tactic cannot be allowed to succeed or there will be no end to it. I was originally going to wait and see, now I will NEVER submit to vaccination. So take note shills, all you do is polarise opinion, sheep will do as they are bid anyway, the rest of us are more likely to push back against perceived attempts at manipulation, to put it bluntly, you do your cause more harm than good.

    • Replies: @Notsofast
  258. glib says:
    @utu

    Can you point the 827 deaths on the Sweden all-cause mortality curve? They should be quite obvious as one z-score unit in Sweden is about 44 deaths. You can find it here

    https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

    Perhaps you are influenced by some media with an agenda?

    • Replies: @utu
  259. Emslander says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Do you ignore hurricane and tornado warnings?? Localized crime statistics? Product recalls?

    As I said, I’m psychologically inclined to disbelieve them. I find those warnings and statistics to be hysterical and sometimes entirely false in hindsight. As for my qualifications, I’m a thinking, breathing human being.

  260. @frontier

    That’s one thing it can’t do. The fundamental paradigm of molecular genetics is DNA -> RNA -> proteins. To go in the reverse direction you need a hack, like retroviruses’ reverse transcriptase.

    What you quoted is a popular but wrong expression of the Central Dogma, what it actually states is that one cannot get RNA or DNA out of unstructured proteins. That’s all. RNA/DNA form/to RNA/DNA are all possible transfers of genetic information, all four combinations are possible.

    Specifically the RNA to DNA conversion process is called reverse transcription, requires an enzyme which you confused for the name of the process.

    Read what I said more carefully. If you were really familiar with this field, you’d know the suffix “ase” is used for enzymes, here’s Wikipedia on reverse transcriptase.

    That enzyme might be present in a vaccine or might be produced by the genetic material in it, some viruses do use it. We know nothing about these vaccines and

    That’s simply not true, although some details of their compositions are often withheld from us plebeians. Ultimately it doesn’t matter because the empiricism of drug testing is what rules approvals, theory is nice but of course not sufficient.

    the makers are shielded from lawsuits, so there is no way to force them to reveal any info.

    Oh, there are ways to force them to reveal info, for example you’re ignoring criminal law altogether, I would be a bit surprised if these civil liability shields protected them from more than lawsuits from individuals who’ve taken a vaccine they produce, and nowadays mob rule has become a thing in the US. But if you’re so concerned about actual white line premeditated malfeasance from drug companies, which also requires someone, government or company, to spend more money to add something like the enzyme reverse transcripase to the formulation, I don’t see why you’d consume anything they produce, including antibiotics.

  261. @Pepe the Frog

    https://www.rt.com/news/508218-italian-grandma-covid19-three-times/ This 101 year old woman, we are told, has gotten the Wubonic Plague three times this year. The Official Truth is that this is commonplace.

    This strongly suggests that antibodies confer no immunity.

    In a 101 year old woman who’s adaptive immune system is clearly failing. How can you possibly generalize from someone that ancient to the normal young and elderly?

    This is not unusual. The list of pathogens for which it is practical to create vaccines is short. There are many pathogens for which the human immune system creates antibodies that are not terribly helpful in fighting off the infection, from HIV to the common cold

    I have no informed opinion on HIV/AIDS beyond the commonplace “don’t get it by not doing X, Y, and Z,” but “the common cold” is caused by over 200 antigenicity distinct strains of viruses from at least seven families and subfamilies of them not including the flu. Simply not practical at this time to create a vaccine for the whole lot, although work has been done on respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), with catastrophic results in the first try that then led to what could be critical information for making a safe COVID-19 vaccine (search above for my first comment on “RSV”).

    to cancer cells.

    Which aren’t pathogens, but cells in the body going crazy, and the immune system failing to detect that after succeeding many times previously.

    The smallpox and measles and polio vaccines are, biochemically speaking, the low-hanging fruit. Over the course of the 20th Century Western medical science found pretty much every case in which a vaccine was possible, and created one.

    You left out the requirements of “economical” and “worth the risk,” which probably isn’t true for a lot of cold viruses.

    Genetic engineering and tinkering with memory RNA are unnecessary.

    It’s messenger RNA; sorry to say, but you’ve demonstrated multiple times in the comment I’m replying to that you lack the most basic of foundations in the relevant biology. Educate yourself, and/or find one or more authorities about this you trust.

    • Replies: @Pepe the Frog
  262. @John Wear

    Dr. Andrew Kaufmann has explicitly said that no one has isolated the SARS-CoV-2 virus according to Robert Koch’s four postulates.

    Well, yeah. Don’t have to watch a video to know that, we’re simply not willing to give viral isolates to ostensibly healthy people to prove in that way that SARS-CoV-2 is the infectious agent (but some Dutch researchers are talking about using this “challenge” method for testing vaccines). Koch’s four postulates are not the end all and be all for understanding infectious diseases.

    Since we’re so ethical and for example too soft to do this on condemned prisoners, we observe a correlation so strong between the presence of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19 symptoms, as well as transmission chains like in families or others living closely together, plus as I recall some animal experiments, we make the obvious assumption. Note this has been done in extraordinary detail and precision by a German research group which collected samples throughout the course of nine patients’ disease, sending samples to two BSL-3 labs for culturing and then of course testing with RT-PCR.

    • Replies: @John Wear
    , @Emslander
  263. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    None of Koch’s four postulates has been performed by doctors or scientists to prove that the SARS-CoV-2 virus exists. Dr. Andrew Kaufman, MD states that what is identified under the microscopes as the SARS-CoV-2 virus is actually identical to exosomes, which are structures that release toxins from cells. Such toxins can result from numerous sources such as flu shots having no relationship to the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

  264. utu says:
    @glib

    827 is 206/week in October. This is approx. 11% above the average (as of 2018) Swedish weekly death rate of 1770 deaths per week.

    You are correct you can’t discern by eyeballing this increase in the http://www.euromomo.eu graph for Sweden. Baseline can be wandering more than the counterfactual prediction from the past can account for. It is possible that the sum of all countermeasures like increased social distancing and possibly a better attention to the elderly in Sweden after the spring disaster due to the negligence of the elderly could contribute to the reduced mortality from other causes.

    I used data from http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ that as far as I know (I was checking this in the past) agree with the official Swedish data you can find here:

    https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/smittskydd-beredskap/utbrott/aktuella-utbrott/covid-19/statistik-och-analyser/bekraftade-fall-i-sverige/

    If you are one of those who thinks that Swedes somehow are manipulating data like by assigning fake death certificates bring that issue to them. Iirc Swedes in the spring were claiming that their covid deaths data agreed with the excess deaths data unlike in some other countries that had excess deaths higher than official covid deaths. Different countries assign covid death in different way. Allegedly Belgians are very generous in issuing covid death certificates while Germans are stingy. This might be one factor why Germany is doing better than Belgium

    You can get weekly death statistics for European countries in absolute numbers at

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/population-demography-migration-projections/data/database?node_code=demomwk

    in Excel and other formats. You could plot Sweden last year and this year to see what is the behavior of the baseline. If the baseline had strong growth in the Fall 2019 then this may indicate that the prediction of the counterfactual baseline for the Fall of this year might be more challenging and thus burdened with larger errors. Note that in the euromomo.eu plots the upper and lower bounds lines for the baseline (dashed red and blue) seem to be parallel. I believe that in some periods of the year they should be closer to each other than in the other periods of the year and thus they should not be parallel. Flu epidemics have different intensities from year to year and thus the boundaries on the baseline in flu season should be broader than in the off flu season period.

    • Replies: @glib
  265. Emslander says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Here’s a link to an article that discusses statistics about the current novel virus excitement:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iO0K75EZAF8dkNDkDmM3L4zNNY0X-Xw5/view

    As you can see, the paper was withdrawn from the Johns Hopkins website because “people were using its conclusions incorrectly”. (?) It seems to say that the novel virus has had very little effect on death rates among the elderly. These kinds of statistical analyses that come out after panic has had its desired effect are what makes me a governmental skeptic, though I’m a mere stupid non-expert.

  266. @Tor597

    Which vaccine would you take today if given free choice?

    Today it would be Pfizer/BioNTech. Moderna is a sketchy company run by a … for now I’ll just say a Frenchman.

    Are there any real differences between the Pfizer and moderns vaccine?

    None that I know of, and none in higher level theory. The mRNA they both use to hijack some cells is stabilized, which might be the most important difference between these plus Janssen’s, and Oxford’s if the reports their Strong Women didn’t make that tweak to avoid antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) are true.

    What about the Jansen vaccine makes it interesting?

    The company is taking a different approach for a different and much bigger market, while still using an adenovirus virus vector technology they’ve had success with before, for example with Ebola. Haven’t done any more research yet, so not much more than I said here, except to add they’re trying for a single dose, with the huge logistical advantages that brings.

  267. utu says:
    @Commentator Mike

    “All those deaths in past years ascribed to influenza are they based on some kind of estimates or on a review of death certificates? ” – One probably could find answer to it. When I looked at CDC stats from the way they were presented my impression was that they were chiefly estimates but based on the fraction of those that had flu cause on death certificates. Testing for flu virus in patients was not as common as it is testing for covid virus now.

    If one is covid positive and develops pneumonia even if there is an opportunistic bacterial infection assigning covid as the cause of death would be correct, imo.

    The mafia dumps somebody in the East River in cement shoes the case of death is drowning but the East River is not going to trial but the mafia guys are.

    The obsession with the cause of deaths that afflicts covid skeptics who hope that this way they will expose a big lie is just an inability to face the reality and a sign of infantile wish full thinking for an alternative reality to make the the bad thing go away. It does not go very deep. It is a shallow game that covers the fear that sits much deeper.

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @Emslander
    , @Skeptikal
  268. utu says:
    @Alexandros

    “..to prop the narrative..” – Speaking of narratives, you definitively should change yours because you sound like an idiot.

  269. DaveE says:

    Virus-vectored and genetically engineered vaccines could undergo recombination or hybridization with unpredictable outcomes

    And that’s the best-case scenario for the pure, untainted samples submitted to the agencies for approval. I goes downhill from there.

    Who the hell has the foggiest idea what will be in the specific syringe we plebeians are injected with. If you trust the likes of Merck and Sandoz and Pfizer to shoot you up with the same “approved” magic serum they sent to the testing lab, you’re dumber than a swab.

  270. Vojkan says:
    @Emslander

    You don’t need to be an expert to observe that a narrative is fallacious. You only need to be logical.

    • Thanks: Emslander
  271. @That Would Be Telling

    Perceived bad side effects? LOL Sure, just like the kid with a peanut allergy, it’s all perception. And of course there are going to be bad side effects from a whole cell vaccine. Just like there are bad side effects from actually getting the naturally acquired version but the difference is the latter works through your immune system as it should and you recover fine with long lasting immunity. You seem unable to understand basic concepts of immunity or even how vaccinations work.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  272. utu says:
    @Emslander

    You mean something that was allegedly written by the lecturer Dr. Genevieve Briand of John Hopkins who specializes in Excel

    but never submitted anywhere though seen by some student at John Hopkins who wrote about it in the student paper and then retracted it?

    • Replies: @Emslander
  273. @Emslander

    Here’s a link to an article that discusses statistics about the current novel virus excitement:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iO0K75EZAF8dkNDkDmM3L4zNNY0X-Xw5/view

    As you can see, the paper was withdrawn from the Johns Hopkins website because “people were using its conclusions incorrectly”. (?)

    That works a lot better than “We’ve realized either the CDC or the paper author and/or webinar authors are making a big mistake with arithmetic.” At best….

    Because the fatal words in the paper are in the first paragraph, “using data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).” Everyone is saying the author adds up the numbers and comes up with different totals than the CDC, and if you doubt this, check the only figure(s) I trust, “all cause” mortality, that is, the totals of all death certificates received by the CDC. If so, someone is making one or more mistakes, and given the general incompetence of the CDC, I wouldn’t even totally bet on it being the author.

    • Agree: Emslander
  274. geokat62 says:

    They say a picture is worth a thousand words…

    Sweden’s Daily Covid-19 Death Curve:

  275. @Vojkan

    As for diseases that have supposedly been eradicated by vaccines, 1) correlation doesn’t mean causation 2) they haven’t. The germs/viruses causing the diseases are still there, there have been registered cases of supposedly eradicated diseases like tuberculosis, diphtheria or poliomyelitis in Western Europe in recent years

    I wonder were could these disease cases possibly be originating from….

    however, improved hygiene of populations in the developed world prevents them to proliferate to quantities large enough to cause epidemics. In places with high density of population and without running water, infectious diseases still cause devastation, in spite of – scolds would say thanks to – campaigns of mass vaccination.

    So take your shot if you wish but for most people with common sense, the goal is not to exterminate the virus, which if it is a natural virus is unachievable – it will mutate endlessly to avoid extermination

    Smallpox and rinderpest would like a word with you, or would if their existence wasn’t limited to a few vials in a very few laboratories. As for your claim about mutations, look up the many words I’ve spilled on “conserved” portions of viruses, here’s a good start. There’s a reason we have “eternal” vaccines for many diseases, and why smallpox and rinderpest are no longer circulating anywhere in the world.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  276. @ConqueringFools

    And here it was I was thanking you for strengthening my suspicions about the acellular pertussis vaccine, and prompting me to significantly increase my knowledge of all this. You’re a very bad ally who will never get anywhere in your campaign. Which is especially hard because I don’t believe we have technology hardly as good against bacteria as we do for viruses. For the latter, the best for a long time has been to gets cells to simulate the real disease; if the pertussis bacteria stays outside cells, it’s a lot more problematic. But has anyone tried adding that 2nd toxin to the acellular pertussis vaccine? That would seem to me to be the first step to try.

  277. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    and a lot of us think the highest probable source of COVID-19 is a leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology of a “gain of function” true mad scientist experiment, research so dangerous it’s been banned twice in the US. So Saint Fauci among others farmed out such research to the PRC

    Errr, may we know more about who etc. “a lot of us” are, and what substantiation you/they can offer for this ‘accidental release’ thesis? If you’re looking for evidence of any putative “gain of function” perhaps you could consider this:

    I’m supposing you already know what that PRRA inclusion is, just how diabolical and how unlikely it is to be ‘of natural causation’ so Q: Anyone building that in would try to be a bit more than ‘normally’ extra-careful; hardly likely to suffer a careless accident. Care to elucidate?

    IMHO very few would have the required level of psychopathy to even go anywhere near that.

    Now, RaTG13 was entered into the NCBI database [quite late] by, amongst others, the ‘Batwoman,’ which would be quite odd if it was her lab where any alleged ‘escape’ occurred?

    Other problems any ‘accidental release’ has are explaining how Iran was attacked and how Russia seems to be under continuing attack. IF these attacks are being carried out by ‘operatives’ THEN they’d need immunity; to be carrying around and dispersing aerosols via drones, say, since the drones would have to ‘return to sender’ [shedding] so’s not to be lost/found and so expose the covert plot.

    Also reports like this [preprint]:

    “Article Summary Line: SARS-CoV-2 genomes occur in sewage long before the declaration of COVID-19 cases among the population”
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1.full.pdf

    All samples came out to be negative for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 genomes with the exception of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive. This striking finding indicates circulation of the virus in Barcelona long before the report of any COVID-19 case worldwide

    Hmmm? rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  278. @Vojkan

    As for diseases that have supposedly been eradicated by vaccines, 1) correlation doesn’t mean causation 2) they haven’t. The germs/viruses causing the diseases are still there, there have been registered cases of supposedly eradicated diseases like tuberculosis, diphtheria or poliomyelitis in Western Europe in recent years; however, improved hygiene of populations in the developed world prevents them to proliferate to quantities large enough to cause epidemics.

    So you are arguing that proper hygiene cured polio?

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  279. Tor597 says:
    @utu

    Utu,

    I don’t necessarily mean the article itself. But often times the commentary on articles from people who are qualified are very interesting and informative.

    For instance, I have long thought that the corona virus has been around the world for a long time before we saw it emerge in China.

    But some of your comments plus links to articles have made me doubtful of this.

    In this thread, its been interesting to hear from posters like That Would Be Telling. But he probably would not have been motivated to post as much in this article if it wasn’t contrary to his beliefs.

    • Replies: @utu
  280. Emslander says:
    @utu

    But the basic conclusions were accurate, which is what Dr. Blix said last Spring. It’s like the King going by with no clothes and only a child would speak out.

  281. Emslander says:
    @utu

    Wrong. Exposing the lies about the number of deaths destroys the fear quotient in our federal power grab.

  282. Bro43rd says:

    This comes from reliable sources within big pharma. An army of “experts” has been employed to defend vaccinations in online forums. Complete with talking points & links to all their “established science”. That perfectly explains certain posters fairly new to UR who seem very knowledgeable but refuse to acknowledge anything that is anti-vac. That said it may be better to not engage these pharma trolls. If only there was a button for “pharma troll, LOL”.

    • Agree: TheTrumanShow
    • Thanks: John Fisher, Skeptikal
  283. utu says:
    @geokat62

    You can’t get daily infections curve form daily death curve by a simple shift. The relation is more complicated. It requires a deconvolution to take into the account that the probability density function of time of death since the infection is an asymmetric gamma function. Furthermore IFR is not constant. Between Spring and Summer it dropped by a factor of at least 5 in the UK because of improved treatment and better protection of elderly.

    For this reason the infection cure obtained as a simple shift of the death curve is not very suitable to identify singular events and markers like an introduction of lockdown or an opening of schools because of smoothing and dilution by the very broad asymmetric gamma function.

    Their mobile phone data based mobility curve does not have to have a direct reflection in the infection curve because the relationship is nonlinear: ∆Mobility is not proportional to ∆Infections, so a slight increase of mobility does not have manifest itself in the increase of infections in some regions of the range. Furthermore mobility is insufficient to estimate contacts probability. Two very mobile persons may never meet while two not mobile persons might be sitting next to each other in a restaurant.

    That the curve in the log scale seems to have a fixed negative slope during the decay phase is not a proof that the process is natural and independent of mobility values. It only means that once mobility and other countermeasure reached a certain threshold level the decay is linear in the log scale because R0 reached the lowest value.

    The fact that in the initial phase the infection curve did not grow exponentially and begins to flatten is because they use the death curve that is a convolution of infection curve with broad gamma function. Furthermore there is alway an effect of voluntary or even subconscious social distancing after hearing the news about the epidemic.

    Anyway the MBA Brits in the video as good representatives of the nation of shopkeepers just try to do what they are genetically programmed to do: Be a voice for liberty for business and the chamber of commerce and a bit of useful idiocy for Big Pharma which does not want lockdowns and masks because it wants to sell drugs and vaccines. They are not smart enough to do the analysis right and that’s why all they can afford is to peddle it on some marginal YT channel to the audience already primed by their confirmation bias: mostly libertarians and other kooks. And if they did it right they would have break through the shopkeepers confirmation bias.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Emslander
  284. Vojkan says:
    @John Johnson

    No, that’s not what I said but to make it clear even for disingenuous / cretinous shills like you, I will rephrase: I am arguing that access to clean running water and proper hygiene prevent spreading of infections.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  285. utu says:
    @Tor597

    I think that “That Would Be Telling” is doing a good job. Certainly one can learn from him. Unfortunately he is one of the very few who provides useful information. He is the sane one. Mostly he is casting pearls before swine.

    Then the rest of commenters is a pack of zombies who reinforce each other like barking dogs between neighboring villages. So the barking never stops and it is the same barking.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • LOL: TheTrumanShow
  286. Vojkan says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Before replying to a post, made the effort to read it whole. Hint: I mention smallpox at the end of the comment to which you reply.

  287. Bro43rd says:
    @Vojkan

    As well as refrigeration & modern processing/storage/transport of food. The possibility of germ theory being bunk is never considered.

    I will concede that vaccines for bacterial disease that create a lifetime (debatable) of immuno-response follows a logical line of reasoning. But viruses with their quick rate of mutation definitely does not make sense.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  288. Skeptikal says:
    @utu

    “If one is covid positive and develops pneumonia even if there is an opportunistic bacterial infection assigning covid as the cause of death would be correct, imo. ”

    Actually I am quite sure that you would be wrong about that.
    At least, before ca. April of this year.
    Which is when changes were mandated by the CDC as to how the “cause-of-death” portion oft he Blue Form should be filled out (to the consternation of quite a few physicians). The old way, which had been worked out over decades, carefully differentiated between underlying and actual causes of death. Cause of death is a physiological event such as, e.g., respiratory failure, organ failure, heart failure, etc.
    So your example of the guy thrown into the river would be, presumably, death by drowning (unless he was shot in the head first, in which case cause of death would be trauma to brain caused by bullet, unless of course he was still alive, despite the shot, and actually did end up drowning). How he got into the river is not a medical issue.

    The new way: Put covid-19 if covid-19 is “suspected.”

    • Replies: @utu
  289. @That Would Be Telling

    Still at it?

    How many words in this comment thread alone? 20,000?

    Whaddariot!

    I encourage you (or your bot master) to keep it going. Anything that needs to unleash such a remarkable torrent of pettifog in its own defense is self-defeating.

  290. @skrik

    Anyone building that in would try to be a bit more than ‘normally’ extra-careful; hardly likely to suffer a careless accident. Care to elucidate?

    The postulated accident I’m referring to is a containment failure. I mean, this is a country where someone has gone to prison for selling as food dead animals he was supposed to destroy, seeing as they came from a lab; that was in Beijing and long before Corona-chan. SARS-CoV-2 was likely a work in progress, and very possibly not intended ever become a bioweapon, gain of function research is just that crazy.

    Other problems any ‘accidental release’ has are explaining how Iran was attacked

    That’s easy, close ties with the PRC by air, Iran can’t be picky. How to you think it got to Italy, first in Europe in a big way? PRC subjects working in northern Italy’s textiles etc. sorts of industries.

    how Russia seems to be under continuing attack

    Citation? Because I’ve not heard of that, and how would you distinguish it from the normal transmission of the disease??

    • Replies: @skrik
  291. @Bro43rd

    I will concede that vaccines for bacterial disease that create a lifetime (debatable) of immuno-response

    Eh??? Why do we then take every ten years a booster against diphtheria and pertussis (whooping cough). That might be shenanigans, it’s the tetanus protection in the TDaP shot that’s absolutely critical (also a bacteria, but the vaccine targets the toxin).

  292. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    They are not smart enough to do the analysis right…

    Are the scientists that published this paper in The Lancet medical journal smart enough? They found that full lockdowns did not reduce Coronavirus mortality rate.

    Research Paper

    A country level analysis measuring the impact of government actions, country preparedness and socioeconomic factors on COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes

    Abstract

    Background: A country level exploratory analysis was conducted to assess the impact of timing and type of national health policy/actions undertaken towards COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes.

    Methods: Information on COVID-19 policies and health outcomes were extracted from websites and country specific sources. Data collection included the government’s action, level of national preparedness, and country specific socioeconomic factors. Data was collected from the top 50 countries ranked by number of cases. Multivariable negative binomial regression was used to identify factors associated with COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes.

    Findings: Increasing COVID-19 caseloads were associated with countries with higher obesity, median population age and longer time to border closures from the first reported case. Increased mortality per million was significantly associated with higher obesity prevalence and per capita gross domestic product (GDP). Reduced income dispersion reduced mortality and the number of critical cases. Rapid border closures, full lockdowns, and wide-spread testing were not associated with COVID-19 mortality per million people. However, full lockdowns and reduced country vulnerability to biological threats (i.e. high scores on the global health security scale for risk environment) were significantly associated with increased patient recovery rates.

    Interpretation: In this exploratory analysis, low levels of national preparedness, scale of testing and population characteristics were associated with increased national case load and overall mortality.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext

    • Replies: @utu
  293. @Skeptikal

    Except, this guy is a programmer.

    And systems guy, and DBA, and software architect, etc., but he was doing his first wet lab recombinant DNA experiments months before he wrote his first program.

    And as we’ve seen, if I had professional qualifications, that would be even more disqualifying.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  294. utu says:
    @Skeptikal

    ” How he got into the river is not a medical issue.” – No, it is. It is an epidemiological issue. You eliminate mafia you reduce the number of deaths by drownings. You eliminate covid, you reduce the number of deaths from pneumonia, organ failures…

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  295. Notsofast says:
    @MarkU

    It is NOW the job of governments and pharmaceutical companies to wage covert information war against the public. The great reset is not just economic, it is an attempt to reset our minds. This is the installation of the murder hornet hive mind. Check out what your 77th brigade is up to, comment #253 has a link. Remember the prisoner tv show? When #6 asks what side are you on? #2 responds “that would be telling”.

    • Thanks: John Fisher
  296. @Vojkan

    I am arguing that access to clean running water and proper hygiene prevent spreading of infections.

    In particular, they help with those that are almost exclusively spread through an fecal-oral route. Cholera, dysentery, hepatitis A and typhoid are other examples in addition to polio. Thus Los Angeles now having problems with hepatitis A, typhoid, and typhus (the latter spread by arthropods, perhaps right into the city hall).

    “Typhoid Mary” eventually had to be locked up because, per Wikipedia:

    The massive amounts of typhoid bacteria that were discovered in her stool samples indicated that the infection center was in her gallbladder. Under questioning, Mallon admitted that she almost never washed her hands. This was not unusual at the time; the germ theory of disease still was not fully accepted.

    Cooking earned her more money than any other type of work, and obviously she was not willing or able to change her hygiene habits enough. This was back in 1907, when gallbladder removal was quite a bit less safe (and of course would expose a lot more tissues to the bacterium), so she refused that option. She was ultimately isolated for almost three decades, after sickening at least 53 people, 3 of whom died, 2 of which were absolutely her fault after her condition was diagnosed.

    This is real, severe public health, the sort of thing you have to do if you want to save lives in the now unfashionable field of infectious disease control; our betters are more interested in banning Big Gulps and guns, and now anything resembling Real Life.

  297. Skeptikal says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    So this blowhard’s primary qualification to pontificate is that he has no scientific qualifications.

    Another client of the Emperor’s tailor!!!

    • Agree: John Fisher
    • Replies: @John Fisher
  298. @That Would Be Telling

    In a 101 year old woman who’s adaptive immune system is clearly failing. How can you possibly generalize from someone that ancient to the normal young and elderly?
    Because MINITRU tells us that this is a very common occurrence, not limited to centenarians:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html

    That is the Official Truth. Whether it bears any resemblance to actual truth is uncertain, but that is today’s official line.

    Reinfection means antibodies confer no immunity–which is very common. There are many, many, many causal agents of disease for which antibodies confer no immunity. If antibodies confer no immunity, a vaccine is impossible even in principle, though they will certainly call whatever they are selling one.

    I am sure the bright boy in Marketing who thought this up will get a fat bonus this year. I am also sure the clever fellows in upper management who signed off on it will be on flights to New Zealand with suitcases full of bearer bonds and hundred-dollar bills just before the rubes catch wise and long before any warrants are signed. I am also sure the Chinese laogai political prisoner slave laborers on the production line manufacturing it won’t get any bonuses at all.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  299. Skeptikal says:
    @utu

    Sorry, apparently you have zero understanding of the process of determining actual cause of death and what an autopsy is and does and how a Blue Form is to be filled out.
    Instructions are quite detailed. The death certificate should be filled out by the decedent’s physician.

    Establishing the actual, not the secondary or background, cause of physical death can have major legal ramifications, not only for both civic and criminal law but also for, say, insurance claims of various kinds. To wit (this from the pre-covid Blue Form):

    “U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
    Centers for Disease Control and Prevention National Center for Health Statistics
    Instructions for Completing the Cause-of-Death Section of the Death Certificate

    Accurate cause-of-death information is important:

    To the public health community in evaluating and improving the health of all citizens, and

    Often to the family, now and in the future, and to the person settling the decedent’s estate.

    The cause-of-death section consists of two parts. Part I is for reporting a chain of events leading directly to death, with the immediate cause of death (the final disease, injury, or complication directly causing death) on Line a and the underlying cause of death (the disease or injury that initiated the chain of morbid events that led directly and inevitably to death) on the lowest used line. Part II is for reporting all other significant diseases, conditions, or injuries that contributed to death but which did not result in the underlying cause of death given in Part I. The cause-of-death information should be YOUR best medical OPINION. A condition can be listed as “probable” even if it has not been definitively diagnosed.”

    Thus if X lands in the hospital because of a positive SARS-CoV-2 test and then piicks up pneumonia in the hospital and dies of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia, not SARS-CoV-2 infection. That is, if the Blue Form is properly filled out.

    • Replies: @utu
  300. @Pepe the Frog

    In a 101 year old woman who’s adaptive immune system is clearly failing. How can you possibly generalize from someone that ancient to the normal young and elderly?

    Because MINITRU tells us that this is a very common occurrence, not limited to centenarians:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html

    That is the Official Truth. Whether it bears any resemblance to actual truth is uncertain, but that is today’s official line.

    Reinfection means antibodies confer no immunity–which is very common.

    In all my life, one of the continuing greatest sources of amazement is people who provide citations, nowadays links, and somehow expect no one will every follow them and find out what they really say. To wit:

    Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​

    And otherwise they’re working on answering the question. Not that anyone should trust anything infectious disease control related from the CDC. The only thing I trust is their all cause mortality statistics, especially after no one has found a smoking gun in their counts after that Johns Hopkins article that said it used CDC raw data got retracted.

  301. @Notsofast

    Remember the prisoner tv show? When #6 asks what side are you on? #2 responds “that would be telling”.

    Congratulations, you are the first person to get that reference, and I’ve been using it for years. And yes, people are going to have to think for themselves about what I’m saying, there are no easy paths to the truth, there is no royal road to learning.

    And that’s one reason I’m here, in replying to the many sane-ish challenges posted, I’ve learned a lot of new things. And have Janssen’s vaccine effort queued up.

  302. @Skeptikal

    The performance of these covert gaslighters has become a bit too obvious in this thread. As I said, stakes are high. But it’s surprising that the execution has been so poorly played here.

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  303. Emslander says:
    @utu

    Anyway the MBA Brits in the video as good representatives of the nation of shopkeepers just try to do what they are genetically programmed to do: Be a voice for liberty for business and the chamber of commerce and a bit of useful idiocy for Big Pharma which does not want lockdowns and masks because it wants to sell drugs and vaccines. They are not smart enough to do the analysis right and that’s why all they can afford is to peddle it on some marginal YT channel to the audience already primed by their confirmation bias: mostly libertarians and other kooks. And if they did it right they would have break through the shopkeepers confirmation bias.

    Are you parodying something? Your sprees of endless stream of consciousness blather challenge my ability to restrain laughter.

  304. @Notsofast

    It is NOW the job of governments and pharmaceutical companies to wage covert information war against the public. The great reset is not just economic, it is an attempt to reset our minds. This is the installation of the murder hornet hive mind. Check out what your 77th brigade is up to, comment #253 has a link. Remember the prisoner tv show? When #6 asks what side are you on? #2 responds “that would be telling”.

    Wow…great catch on the prisoner tv line!

    I agree completely with your comment. In my very first comment on Unz months ago, I wrote that his has had all the markings of mind control from the beginning. The use of tactics both soft and hard. The incessant media and government propaganda applies the soft, physically non-invasive torture. Ever changing stories and shifting realities that lead people inexorably into a false identity.

    The hard tactics, the physical invasive tortures, have been applied with a slow but equally inexorable increase in rituals: hand-washing, social distancing, masks, outright isolation, drugs (soon-to-be). What ghastly tortures await those who refuse to consent to these unmistakably occult-like rituals?

    The sudden appearance of pharma shills is only further proof. This is psychological warfare, big time.

    • Agree: Notsofast, Emslander
    • Replies: @Emslander
  305. MEH 0910 says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    But it’s as good a guess as any, and better than most if narcolepsy is indeed an autoimmune disease, news to me which I’ll be looking into somday.

    Gregory Cochran has a hypothesis that homosexuality is an autoimmune disease triggered by a pathogen.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/depths-of-madness/

    My model – not the only possible model based on a pathogen, but reasonable – leans on a couple of natural examples. One is narcolepsy. We now know that narcolepsy happens when a particular kind of neuron, concentrated in a little region in the hypothalamus, somehow gets zapped. 99% of narcolepsy cases happen in the 25% of the population that has a particular HLA type – which suggests that something, probably a virus, triggers an overenthusiastic immune response that zaps a neuron subpopulation that produce a particular neurotransmitter (called hypocretin or orexin) that regulates appetite and sleep patterns. And it doesn’t do anything else: narcoleptics aren’t stupid. You can compare narcolepsy to type I diabetes or Parkinson’s disease. Suppose there’s a neuron subpopulation that performs a key function in male sexual desire: wipe out that subpopulation, and Bob’s your uncle.

    JayMan:
    https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/greg-cochrans-gay-germ-hypothesis-an-exercise-in-the-power-of-germs/

    The same post by JayMan is also at The Unz Review:
    https://www.unz.com/jman/greg-cochrans-gay-germ-hypothesis-an-exercise-in-the-power-of-germs/

  306. glib says:
    @utu

    You were an ass in March and you are an ass now. You are going to see that kind of excess, period, if it is there. It just isn’t. You are re-using attributed deaths, same trick that was used back in March.

    The 2019 data are also mis-represented. You can see from Euromomo that Finland and Norway had worse flu seasons last year and the year prior. It is in the fucking data right there for everyone to see. What that means is that there was less dry tinder there, compared to Sweden. You compare the 5 years averages and it is the same.

    It is even worse than that. All the excess mortality in spring was in Stockholm, and in two groups: blacks and nursing home residents. Some correlation there because poorly paid nursing home jobs are manned by Africans, and they brought in the virus. I am sure they had a cheap fix, something like giving all these people vitamin D pills. And these Somali in Sweden, they go down to single digits in vit. D content in winter, where 30ng/ml or more would be healthy. Regular Swedes did not die since they have always traditionally chugged some cod liver oil.

    No wait, it gets worse still. This was the fifth worst flu season for Sweden since 1988, but this time we need to lock down.

    But we need to compare the blacks of Sweden with those of Finland, both of them. And then there is Japan, where I currently reside, not locked down, extremely dense (the subway is packed during rush hours), but where the population (specially the elderly) are mostly above 30ng/ml. They did close pools and gyms two weeks ago, but that was all. If lock downs are necessary why aren’t we?

    • Agree: TheTrumanShow
    • Replies: @utu
  307. geokat62 says:

  308. @Skeptikal

    “Except, this guy is a programmer.”

    Really? What kind of “programmer?” There are … ‘many kinds.’

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  309. @John Fisher

    “The performance of these covert gaslighters has become a bit too obvious in this thread. As I said, stakes are high.”

    Agree.

    “But it’s surprising that the execution has been so poorly played here.”

    Recursive bots w/o base case / stopping condition.

    • Agree: John Fisher
  310. anon666 says:

    Well, now that trump has been booted, whitney doesn’t need to spend so much time on the trump campaign trail and can get back to his punditry.

    The israelis want more goys infected with and harmed by covid and by one of those strange coincidences, whitney advocates people do the very thing that will insure more goys are taken out by covid. A term search of Russia netted zero results in the article. Given there is a Russian vaccine, and it differs significantly from the current american & brit/swede vaccines about ready, this is rather odd, since a discussion of their differences would actually bolster whitney’s main premise here, that one should avoid the vaccines.

    The american & brit/swede vaccines use monkey genetic material, the Russian vaccine uses human material. The american & brit/swede vaccines are a new, largely untested medical tech, the Russian vaccine is based on an established and well tested medical tech. The new tech raises serious questions about what might materialize later on in people using those american & brit/swede vaccines, especially the brit/swede one which borderline ineffective and wasn’t tested correctly. Personally, given a choice, I would opt for the Russian vaccine simply because it is based upon more established medical technology that has been tested longer.

    But whitney doesn’t want people to be aware there is a Russian vaccine, apparently. Neither does israel, coincidentally.

    There are at least a couple other covid vaccines in the works. One being developed in China and one in israel. I don’t where the Chinese vaccine is at in development, nor what it is based upon. The same with the israeli one, though back in last winter I remember reading how israeli researchers had a vaccine almost ready. But I didn’t hear anything else of this miraculous israeli medical breakthrough afterwards. So it doesn’t sound like the reality matched zio-hype.

    But, if the israelis do manage to get a covid vaccine developed, will whitney change his tune about not taking a vaccine? At least for “those people that count”.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  311. Skeptikal says:
    @TheTrumanShow

    I dunno. Ask him. It’s what he said.

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  312. @Skeptikal

    Sorry, Skeptikal. My comment was really directed, sardonically, at TWBT, who appears to be more of a Tavistock-programmer than a computer-programmer.

    BTW, I think your comments on this thread are excellent.

    • Thanks: Skeptikal
  313. Eagle Eye says:
    @LadyTheo

    LadyTheo Commenting History:

    “over 10 comments since 2015.”

    Lots of pharma shills coming out of the woodwork, obviously paid through PR firms.

  314. P.A.Semi says: • Website

    So in short term, the vaccine is probably limiting the infection as designed, that the Body makes Anti-Bodies… (Supposedly…)

    But in long term, when there will be again and again cellular factories producing these spike-proteins from mRNA, there are just three possible outcomes:
    – the mRNA will fade away and stop working, and the gained immunity will be lost after few weeks or months…
    – or there will be permanent inflammation…
    – or most probably – the Body (and it’s immune system) will get used to it and will start to ignore this HIV spike-protein, learning it is something normally present in the body…

    It (ChAdOx1 chimp adenovirus) actually reduces Symptoms of Covid caused by over-reaction of immune system and cytokine storm… (how does Moderna-Pfizer mRNA vaccine work was not even published sufficiently…) Which then means, that the immune system gets used on that spike-protein and will not over-react, or rather will not react at all…

    And then they will send another virus with same spike-protein, which the immune system of those vaccinated will ignore, and it will sweep them all away… That rather mild Covid was actually an overture released in order to let them be vaccinated, that was it’s chief reason… (or rather there are multiple players with multiple interests involved… Some just want to rob us with their Great Reset, and (((some))) want to outright exterminate us at their Talmudic bidding…)

    They’ve already shown, that they are able to genetically engineer this spike-protein onto another virus, when they’ve made that ChAdOx1 vaccine from Adenovirus, which took them about two or three months… What if they’ll engineer this spike-protein onto Ebola virus or Smallpox etc?

    We should be thinking few steps ahead… There’s not only Covid common cold…

  315. Johns Hopkins Study Explodes COVID Death Hoax; It’s Re-Labeling on a Grand Scale

    “This patient who died had an ordinary heart attack.” “Not anymore. We’re repackaging it as COVID.”

    To underline & emphasize Robert Dolan’s comment at #328, posted below are Jon Rappoport’s key quotes from his blog RE the Johns Hopkins News-Letter article, published 12/1/2020 at LewRockwell.com.

    Rappoport’s full article is here: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/12/jon-rappoport/johns-hopkins-study-explodes-covid-death-hoax-its-re-labeling-on-a-grand-scale/

    Key Quotes:

    “These data analyses suggest that in contrast to most people’s assumptions, the number of deaths by COVID-19 is not alarming. In fact, it has relatively no effect on deaths in the United States.”

    “This comes as a shock to many people. How is it that the data lie so far from our perception?”

    “When Briand looked at the 2020 data during that seasonal period, COVID-19-related deaths exceeded deaths from heart diseases. This was highly unusual since heart disease has always prevailed as the leading cause of deaths. However, when taking a closer look at the death numbers, she noted something strange. As Briand compared the number of deaths per cause during that period in 2020 to [deaths per cause in] 2018, she noticed that instead of the expected drastic increase across all causes, there was a significant decrease in deaths due to heart disease. Even more surprising, as seen in the graph below, this sudden decline in deaths is observed for all other causes.”

    “This trend is completely contrary to the pattern observed in all previous years. Interestingly, as depicted in the table below, the total decrease in deaths by other causes almost exactly equals the increase in deaths by COVID-19. This suggests, according to Briand, that the COVID-19 death toll is misleading. Briand believes that deaths due to heart diseases, respiratory diseases, influenza and pneumonia may instead be [may have been] recategorized as being due to COVID-19.”

    “The CDC classified all deaths that are related to COVID-19 simply as COVID-19 deaths. Even patients dying from other underlying diseases but are infected with COVID-19 count as COVID-19 deaths. This is likely the main explanation as to why COVID-19 deaths drastically increased while deaths by all other diseases experienced a significant decrease.”

    “’All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers. We found no evidence to the contrary,’ Briand concluded.”
    “’If [the COVID-19 death toll] was not misleading at all, what we should have observed is an increased number of heart attacks and increased COVID-19 numbers. But a decreased number of heart attacks and all the other death causes doesn’t give us a choice but to point to some misclassification [re-labeling],’ Briand replied.”

    “In other words, the effect of COVID-19 on deaths in the U.S. is considered problematic only when it increases the total number of deaths or the true death burden by a significant amount in addition to the expected deaths by other causes. Since the crude number of total deaths by all causes before and after COVID-19 [was first announced] has stayed the same, one can hardly say, in Briand’s view, that COVID-19 deaths are concerning.”

    Of course, there is some mealy-mouthed backtracking in the article. The virus is deadly and the pandemic is real, etc. But the data are the data.

    The whole COVID operation is a hoax.

  316. Anon[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    . . . and I still can’t understand how the Right rejects masks when they ruin facial recognition technology schemes.

    The body has a variety of means by which it eliminates toxins & waste: poop, piss, sweat, tears, etc.

    One of the most effective methods of elimination is respiration.

    As for me, I support your right to rebreathe your body’s own aerosolized excrement.

    Hopefully, you and your circle jerk buddy, Lady Theo, will be first in line for the jabs – seems only right that mendacious PR flacks like yourselves eat the same shit you’re selling.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  317. Nancy says:

    Why does the WHO’s PCR Test Protocol call a Cycle Threshold of 45 a ‘positive’ result, when it indicates no such thing? Are they stupid?, in which case, they have no credibility to declare a catastrophic pandemic, and are culpable for economic and social disaster? Or cunning, and ditto. And implicate the CDC, FDA, NIH et al in their mind-boggling incompetence/venality.

  318. Amanda says:

    Here’s Dr. Carrie Madej warning about the experimental mRNA vaccines as well as plans to inject us with hydrogel biosensors (project from the psychopaths at DARPA):

    Human 2.0 A Wake Up Call to the World



    Dr. Christian Northrup also issues similar warnings about the experimental vaccines:
    Real TRUTH About COVID19 Vaccine ~ Christiane Northrup Interview ~ What They Don’t Want You To Know!




    Dr. Joseph Mercola also warns about the experimental vaccines and injectable biosensors, as well as the transhumanism agenda: https://www.sott.net/article/441464-Injectable-biochip-for-SARS-CoV-2-detection-near-FDA-approval

    • Agree: John Wear
    • Thanks: John Fisher
  319. anon[106] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You’re doing big Pharmas’ work, and it looks like you get paid by the word.

    • Agree: Nancy
  320. @That Would Be Telling

    “That particular variant we refer to as COVID-19 has not been duplicated thus giving them a clone from which they can make the vaccine

    whereas as far as I know, there’s only one real “variant” since the very beginning of the outbreak, coronaviruses are unique among RNA viruses in having a proofreading mechanism, so they mutate at low rates, …”

    Re in particular: ‘only one real “variant” ‘

    Hmm, really? I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that this ‘virus’ had been massively and relentlessly promoted as “novel” in order to run cover for claims about some of its here-to-for unheard of attributes.

    How can this be?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  321. BuelahMan says:
    @gsjackson

    Not quite a 180… he still clings to various aspects of his wrongness.

    Like way back when I would try to comment on his site about various Nazi bashing weapons he would use to bolster points. I would try to explain the lie of the holocaust and the truth of jewish power/control. Only to be met with banning.

    Years later, he starts to “learn” about the lies and has changed his mind in many ways and actually will call out the jew on inarguable topics.

    PCR is much older and well versed in historical realities (at least based upon mainstream narrative), so he should have known about jewish skulduggery and the fake holocaust long before I did.

    PCR is a very opinionated dude that WAS part of the problem (US Government). He was also a main player in MSM. He is still a Republican thru and thru. Tainted in many ways and questionable in his purpose.

  322. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    a country where someone has gone to prison for selling as food dead animals he was supposed to destroy, seeing as they came from a lab

    Hmmm; sounds like propaganda, and even if true it probably represents ‘learning by doing.’ Apropos, here’s more learning by doing:

    “China lands spacecraft on the Moon in mission to retrieve lunar rocks … ”

    Perhaps the next thing you’ll be trying on is that SARS-CoV-2 crossed the species-barrier in a mug of hot bat soup from the Wuhan wet market, eh? rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  323. @RoatanBill

    Yes indeed, detail on the 2009 UK vaccine disaster here, all the hallmarks of this one

  324. @anon666

    Given there is a Russian vaccine, and it differs significantly from the current american & brit/swede vaccines about ready, this is rather odd, since a discussion of their differences would actually bolster whitney’s main premise here, that one should avoid the vaccines.

    The american & brit/swede vaccines use monkey genetic material, the Russian vaccine uses human material. The american & brit/swede vaccines are a new, largely untested medical tech, the Russian vaccine is based on an established and well tested medical tech. The new tech raises serious questions about what might materialize later on in people using those american & brit/swede vaccines, especially the brit/swede one which borderline ineffective and wasn’t tested correctly. Personally, given a choice, I would opt for the Russian vaccine simply because it is based upon more established medical technology that has been tested longer.

    Not all that much of what you say is correct, or at least the implications:

    The single most important fact about the Russian vaccine, brand name Sputnik V, is that it was approved by their government at what sounds like an FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) level, and boasted about, one month before its Phase III trial started (for the latter, recruiting of participants started September 10th). So it can’t be compared to the two US vaccines that have reached application for an EUA level on November 20th (Pfizer/BioNTech) and Moderna (last Monday, the 30th). But, hey, if you want to take an untested for efficacy, and safety in large numbers vaccine that Russia and Putin have staked their prestige on, be my guest.

    I don’t know anything about a “brit/swede” vaccine, but British entities AZ/Oxford have a existing technology vaccine, except perhaps for it using a chimp rather than human adenovirus vector. We can ignore them for the forseable future, for the testing has been a clown show, they’re essentially going to have to restart their Phase III trial from almost the beginning as you briefly cover.

    No American vaccine “uses monkey genetic material,” Janssen like Sputnik V uses human adenovirus vectors, one for one dose for the former, two, one for each dose for the latter (and both dosing schemes are good ideas, vs. the AZ/Oxford one). The Pfizer/BioNTech (the latter a German company) and Moderna (American) vaccines use pure mRNA, never comes close to an animal except for testing.

    The only really new tech is in the mRNA vaccines, you do not have enough knowledge of biology and medicine to judge whether they raise “serious questions” or not. I believe that in theory, due to their simplicity they have the potential for being the safest vaccines ever in what I’ll refer to as the “active” vaccine category, ones that hijack a number of cells to mimic the wild type virus to produce as thorough an immune system response as possible (see the smallpox vaccine, and then the many attenuated live virus vaccines for the first of these). For more details on how mRNA vaccines work and why they might be so safe, see my previous comments.

  325. Emslander says:
    @John Fisher

    This is psychological warfare, big time.

    Always in the background the threat of death, with horrifying sounding worldwide statistical backup.

    If you only go by the experiences you have in your family, community, county or state, without listening to the hysterical spokesmodels in the news business, all you see are the normal things, seasonal illnesses and the normal human mortality that seems to strike when least expected, “like a thief in the night.”

    You, the vast majority of you all, are healthy and capable. It’s the fear.

  326. Emslander says:
    @P.A.Semi

    I spoke with someone who thinks he knows and he said that there are bigger things in the plans than the Wuhan Flu and that they can be brought up pretty much any time it is necessary. He figured two to three years after we stop being afraid of this one.

    Sorry for the imprecision, but that’s all I’ve got. Maybe someone with more knowledge can expand on it.

  327. @P.A.Semi

    So in short term, the vaccine is probably limiting the infection as designed, that the Body makes Anti-Bodies… (Supposedly…)

    But in long term, when there will be again and again cellular factories producing these spike-proteins from mRNA….

    Your “(Supposedly…)” betrays that you either don’t believe in our long standing knowledge of the immune system, or despite their results in all of Phase I through III trials, that these vaccines induce an immune system response, including antibodies. So the problems you posit of their continuing to produce spike proteins is invalid, either the immune system will kill all the cells doing that, and/or the mRNA deposited into them will be as usual broken up for recycling as is the fate of all mRNA strands in or out of cells. Nothing that you say in the rest of the above second paragraph matches our knowledge of the immune system, and if it were possible for people with normal immune systems, it would also be happening to everyone who gets the wild type virus infection!

    It (ChAdOx1 chimp adenovirus) actually reduces Symptoms of Covid caused by over-reaction of immune system and cytokine storm…

    Nope, the AZ/Oxford vaccine works like any other live virus vaccine, and after the second dose, for those for whom it works, the wild type virus will never get enough of a hold on your body to induce a cytokine storm at a harmful level. That’s after all the whole point of vaccines!!!

    (how does Moderna-Pfizer mRNA vaccine work was not even published sufficiently…)

    Either gross ignorance or a lie, I’d guess the former.

    Your third from the last sentence about the world being subjected to another artificial novel coronavirus is a legitimate concern, but by and large beyond the scope of this topic. See here at iSteve where I discuss the prospects of the PRC/CCP doing this in 2021-22.

    What if they’ll engineer this spike-protein onto Ebola virus or Smallpox etc?

    We should be thinking few steps ahead… There’s not only Covid common cold…

    Indeed we should be. But Ebola just doesn’t transmit very well outside of lower tier 3rd World contexts (requires contact with body fluids), and Original Formula smallpox hardly needs any modifications, it was officially eradicated in 1979, so countries stopped vaccinating for it some time afterwords, the risks could not be justified by the non-existing benefit. If you were to engineer a “perfect” smallpox bioweapon, you’d focus on trying to get it to evade the existing vaccine, or use another pathogen.

    • Troll: Skeptikal
    • Replies: @P.A.Semi
  328. Well, why not have the same folks who pre-print ballots also issue certificates of vaccination? That way you don’t need to actually take the vaccine but can prove you did, sort of like how ballots magically can claim a winner in an election. With many nations gearing up to mandate vaccinations prior to entry, such a certificate would be pretty handy. If we declared such certificates as ‘settled science’ it will make any investigations into their legitimacy non-starters. You get to travel again, fraudsters get money, science gets vindicated, and the public can trust their betters again. An all around win.

  329. The “vaccine” is part of the scheme to depopulate the earth by making people infertile. They won’t do this in one fell swoop, but gradually by having “boosters.” They also believe that more than 90% of blacks will take it willingly while less than 50% of whites will do so.

    They will also make the “vaccine” readily available in sub-Sahara Africa. In other words, not only do they want to reduce the overall world population of humans, but they also want to cut drastically on the number of blacks.

  330. @skrik

    a country where someone has gone to prison for selling as food dead animals he was supposed to destroy, seeing as they came from a lab

    Hmmm; sounds like propaganda, and even if true it probably represents ‘learning by doing.’

    Except there’s no sign the PRC/CCP has learned from their many lab and manufacturing accidental release incidents. From memory, more than once from at least one of their early military/secret bioweapons labs, SARS in two different labs in Beijing, and 6,000 people infected with brucellosis (a vaccine factory leak and hardly unique to the PRC, one thing that shows why killed virus or bacteria vaccines are not a panacea).

    So doing banned in the US gain of function research in their first BSL-4 civilian lab was stark raving mad. So was Saint Fauci funding them, first for 4-5 years of collecting bat viruses, then the gain of function research, which at least one of the Wuhan Institute of Virology researchers had previously worked on in the US before the ban.

    • Replies: @skrik
  331. “Several Covid Vaccines involve the use of a completely new technology -mRNA vaccination -whose large-scale use in healthy human subjects is unprecedented and long-term effects unknown.”

    Last July, a church you never heard of issued a press release in conjunction with a global ban (Subitis Medicinae Edicto) on RNA/DNA vaccines and nanovaccinology. They determined that the agenda behind Covid was satanically-inspired and forbade their parishioners from partaking in testing, ritualistic mask-wearing and RNA vaccines.

    They also issued Religious Exemption Affidavits which you can read about and acquire.
    https://www.marcionitechurch.org/covidscam.html

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  332. @Anon

    . . . and I still can’t understand how the Right rejects masks when they ruin facial recognition technology schemes.

    The body has a variety of means by which it eliminates toxins & waste: poop, piss, sweat, tears, etc.

    One of the most effective methods of elimination is respiration.

    You are severely lacking in imagination if you can’t twist a mask requirement into something that solves both issues. I guess you haven’t heard of the fabric type named gauze? Can’t come up with a design that’s has non-obvious vents? Can’t conceive of trying the industrial mask gambit (OK, that’s easy to detect)?

    Hopefully, you and your circle jerk buddy, Lady Theo, will be first in line for the jabs

    No idea about Lady Theo, but I’m in the very lowest priority cohort, under 65, no relevant commodities (there are a number of priority schemes, not sure what exactly has been or will be decided at the national and state levels). That said, I have very good older friends who are perhaps in medium priority cohorts, and I’m doing this work, these discussions and arguments on Unz.com, and the resulting research they prompt first and foremost for them.

    • Replies: @Anon
  333. Jimmy1969 says:

    This article is a childish ignorant little rant.

  334. @TheTrumanShow

    “That particular variant we refer to as COVID-19 has not been duplicated thus giving them a clone from which they can make the vaccine

    whereas as far as I know, there’s only one real “variant” since the very beginning of the outbreak, coronaviruses are unique among RNA viruses in having a proofreading mechanism, so they mutate at low rates, …”

    Re in particular: ‘only one real “variant” ‘

    Hmm, really? I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that this ‘virus’ had been massively and relentlessly promoted as “novel”….

    Novel in this context means never before seen by any human’s immune system, or nearly so for some of the major flu antigenic shifts, for example perhaps H2N2 to H3N2, the N2 wasn’t as novel as the H3. But seasonal level mutations might have made it somewhat novel, or maybe it too had an antigenic shift, that’s happened at least once with H1N1.

    From the viewpoint of gaining immunity from either a wild type COVID-19 infection or a vaccine, all the minor mutations observed so far do not matter, thus only one relevant “variant” of SARS-CoV-2. For why that can be so, see my comments on “conserved” parts of organisms, which the proofreading mechanism “stacks” on, making it even more unlikely the vaccines will become obsolete.

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  335. The elites need doctors. So if the doctors of the elite take the vaccine, can we assume it’s safe? Or will they secretly not take it?

  336. @TheTrumanShow

    “’All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers. We found no evidence to the contrary,’

    This article reporting on a webinar is fatally flawed in the first paragraph, see this previous comment for details. TL;DR: She claims to have used the CDC’s data set, one or the other has made a big mistake in basic arithmetic.

    • Replies: @gleongelpi
    , @Emslander
  337. @John Wear

    This comment thread probably needs to die, but the avalanche of manure from the Pharma bots/shills (take your pick) needs to be preserved for future reference when the next Unz article “waves a red flag” (LOL…see @antitermite in Comment #253). For that alone, Mr. Whitney did a great service.

    Even still, anyone who has read this far should watch the two videos linked above by poster @John Wear (to whom I am here replying) and the videos linked by @Amanda in Comment #339.

    Dr. Andrew Kaufman is always edifying, but Dr. Carrie Madej discerns the spiritual element and the obvious symbolism that is out there for all eyes (at least those open) to see as we watch this horrible masterstroke unfold.

    The ability to discern reality from deception is the most important virtue one can cultivate in this Age of the Big Lie. Nine months ago, I would not have placed medicine/health at the top of the Big Lie heap.

    Perhaps one of the unintended results from this entire black op (whose architect cannot help but overreach) is the light it has shined on what may be the Biggest of the Big Lies: the modern “medical/health” industry. It sure looks like a death cult right now.

    • Thanks: John Wear
    • Replies: @John Wear
  338. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    I see that you like the phrase “gain of function” [7 of 9 mentions ‘in here’ are yours];

    So doing banned in the US gain of function research in their first BSL-4 civilian lab was stark raving mad. So was Saint Fauci funding them, first for 4-5 years of collecting bat viruses, then the gain of function research, which at least one of the Wuhan Institute of Virology researchers had previously worked on in the US before the ban

    .. often associated with “true mad scientist experience.” Well, I can’t argue with that; it may well be that the “batwoman” [= Zhengli Shi] was up to her armpits in bat faeces – errr, I mean bat viruses, and performng ‘unnatural acts’ upon such. Then, you seem to like “containment failure.”But if Fauci was funding them, perhaps he had access to any ‘product?’

    Posit: Silence is acquiescence. Earlier, I posted a paper reporting detection of SARS-CoV-2 in Barcelona, 12Mar’19. Could you suggest how a containment failure in Wuhan got to Barcelona before the earliest detection of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan, reportedly 17Nov ’19? rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  339. @Darren Kelama

    Last July, a church you never heard of issued a press release in conjunction with a global ban (Subitis Medicinae Edicto) on RNA/DNA vaccines and nanovaccinology.

    To the extent I can determine, they fail on the science, resulting in the theology behind their bans being irrelevant. Specifically, in the press release link your link directs us to:

    Citing the dangerous and unknown nature of RNA/DNA vaccines and their potential to permanently alter the genetic structure of humans….

    “Our understanding is that DNA vaccines inject synthesized genes, altering the human genetic makeup forever in unknown ways. And the RNA vaccines have the potential to trigger autoimmune reactions wherein the body attacks itself.

    Their understanding is mostly incorrect, and would forbid all vaccines except maybe the protein and killed virus ones. They might have a point about DNA live attenuated virus vaccines, or the last point about autoimmune reactions, except the very same is true if you get the corresponding wild type virus infection. That said, there is a big difference between doing it deliberately or it happening as God wills, but without being able to examine their theology (see below)….

    But the COVID-19 vaccines in question have been engineered in the case of the DNA ones, or simply by their nature for the mRNA ones, to avoid the “altering the human genetic makeup forever” issue. Which, you know, is a good idea in general!

    The edict (Subitis Medicinae Edicto) issued by the Central Pontiate also bans participation in the use of nanovaccinology for a period of three-years as more is learned about the implications of the technology.

    They catastrophically fail in their PR and evangelism by not providing a link to the edict!!!, I spent on the order of ten minutes trying to find it on their site, or any related references to nanovaccinology or “nano”, and with Bing, DuckDuckGo and Google.

    OK, maybe it’s my fault for just not noticing one or it here, linked off of here. Which in Latin just flatly bans the RNA and DNA vaccines, and all “nanovaccinology.” No, you know, explanation why (they do have that for masks). Also, if you click on the link, you’ll realize they’re grifters trying to make a buck off this.

    The might be on to something here, unless and until we learn more about the lipids (fats) that are used in Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna’s vaccines, but after the above ignorance it’s not worth my while trying to hunt down their details about that. Especially since I can’t hunt down the details without, say, contacting them directly….

  340. @TheTrumanShow

    Thank you, and best regards, TWBT.

    You’re welcome, and the same to you.

    One addition I should make to the above essay is that by no means all of SARS-CoV-2 is novel, just enough of the parts that the immune system latches onto for coronaviruses, or perhaps just SARS like coronaviruses.

    Think of your dwelling, it’s got many novel things, including you :-), and many non-novel things like the types of cables used to provide electricity throughout it. So various basic machinery is pretty much the same between these variants of viruses. And for example one basic functionality enzyme is very much like one in HIV and I presume many other unsegmented viruses, although different enough, or not relevant enough, for anti-HIV drugs that target it to be useful in treating COVID-19.

  341. John Wear says:
    @John Fisher

    I appreciate your comment. The videos made by Dr. Carrie Madej, D.O. are all extremely important and enlightening. The proposed SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will not only have a variety of poisons that are not healthy; even worse, they will change our DNA. As Dr. Madej points out, the idea is to make us subhuman and easy to control.

    The following is another excellent video from Dr. Andrew Kaufman, M.D. https://www.bitchute.com/video/hm4WODPleY9L/.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  342. @John Wear

    The proposed SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will … change our DNA.

    This is simply not true. Any URLs with timestamps, or a time to start watching them? Not going to start or skim a 44 minute video like the one you linked to to find such claims.

    • Replies: @John Wear
  343. @skrik

    Earlier, I posted a paper reporting detection of SARS-CoV-2 in Barcelona, 12Mar’19. Could you suggest how a containment failure in Wuhan got to Barcelona before the earliest detection of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan, reportedly 17Nov ’19? rgds

    Umm, it this really difficult? Either there was an error in the experiment, for example that single 12 March 19 sewage sample accidentally got contaminated with only two of the RNA sequences they were looking for (the tests can be very sensitive), or the process of testing it failed, but I would hope they redid the tests!, or it was indeed circulating here and there before it staged a “breakout” in Wuhan late in 2019.

    Decades ago I remember reading that the earliest sample of HIV had been found in a sample collected in Africa the late 1950s….

    • Replies: @skrik
  344. BeeGee says:
    @Zarathustra

    No, the US vaccines are not dead virus injected
    into cells. They are a genetic treatment that tells the cells to start kicking out instructions to attack material of a certain type. This type of vaccine has never been used before except for Ebola and I think that had limited success.

  345. @BeeGee

    They are a genetic treatment that tells the cells to start kicking out instructions to attack material of a certain type. This type of vaccine has never been used before except for Ebola and I think that had limited success.

    Every live virus vaccine, starting with the very first ever vaccine against smallpox, works exactly this way. Except these vaccines either lack everything required to replicate (the mRNA ones), or use a virus that’s “replication deficient,” that is, the number of cells they hijack to pump out spike proteins is strictly limited by the quantity injected.

  346. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    This just in:

    https://www.rt.com/usa/508447-coronavirus-us-before-china/

    “A similar study carried out by their Italian peers revealed that samples in Italy were already showing antibodies in September.” rgds

  347. @skrik

    Thank goodness for the Daily Mail! (Seriously, when they do hard news, they do it so much better than almost all the mainstream US prestige media it’s beyond appalling.):

    Of those, 14 per cent had antibodies in their blood in samples taken in September 2019, the researchers claimed.

    Again, but this time, with that low a number for antibody testing experimental error is quite possible. But also, again, but much more likely compared to March in Spain, it could have been circulating back then exactly where it eventually broke out big time, the first in Europe.

    Thanks for the pointer!

  348. @That Would Be Telling

    Go to the CDC yourself. It is clear: There has been no meaningful increase in the number of deaths this year from last year. Furthermore, you must realize that the number of death increase every year. That should not need an explanation.

    • Thanks: John Wear, Skeptikal
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  349. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    One of Dr. Carrie Madej’s first videos is at https://www.bitchute.com/video/KjFRsu61fdiX/.
    It is about 15 minutes long and discusses the dangers of the new vaccine. Dr. Madej says the new vaccine can affect our DNA.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  350. utu says:
    @geokat62

    I saw that paper ( Ravail Chaudhry et al. (July 2020) paper) before and I remember I was not too happy with it then. So I looked again at it and have several comments but before you should look at this Italian paper

    Timing of national lockdown and mortality in COVID-19: The Italian experience (November 2020)
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220307220#!

    Timing of lockdown (Days from the first case to lockdown) and (Number of deaths/100.000 residents at 60 days) have strong positive correlation. See data in Table 1:

    Correlation r=0.37 n=19
    Correlation r=0.73 n=18 (greatest outlier removed)
    Correlation r=0.84 n=17 (two greatest outliers removed)

    This clearly established a common sense result that longer you wait to impose lockdown higher price you pay. Lockdowns work!

    Now, why Canadian authors (Ravail Chaudhry et al. (July 2020) paper) using data from 50 countries got absurd result and why did they publish it? Too many confounding variables and noisy data and brainless trust in statistical multivariate analysis package. IMO Ravail Chaudhry et al. (July 2020) paper should be retracted!

    (1) Data for the 50 countries used are not provided even in supplementary materials. Authors wasted one page on two low information graphs while they could have a table with 50 rows and say 10 columns for the most important parameters. There is no easy way to verify their data and their calculations. The list of countries with their infection and death rates as of May 1 is provided in a .docx file.

    (2a) It is imprudent to use vastly differing countries from the first and the third world like Switzerland, Singapore, Pakistan, Philippines and Indonesia. Quality of data form from the third world countries is suspect.

    (2b) It is not prudent to have very large countries like US, China, Brazil, India and Pakistan in comparison with smaller European countries. On May 1st epidemics in those large countries were often local so deaths per capita values were not representative and thus adding to meaningless variance in data that would obscure more important variables. Lockdowns were imposed at different times in different parts of large countries.

    (2c) The association and multivariate model should be ran on a subset of counter like only European countries

    (3) They used arithmetic population density which is very important parameter but do not say what they do with it and how much of variance pop. density can explain. The effective pop. density should have been used. i.e. some countries have large empty not populated areas. For instance Spain has 2.5 times lower arithmetic pop. density than UK but in terms of the effective pop. density Spain has 1.4 times higher density. Or Norway and Sweden have the same effective pop. density but in terms of arithmetic pop. density Sweden has 1.37 higher density.

    The effective pop.density is very a important parameter because the pre-lockdown R0 is strongly dependent on it.

    (4) The “Days to lockdown from first case” (DtL) parameter is used. More exploration should be done around it. Days to lockdown from first death should have been tried. Also the number of cases and deaths at time of the lockdown should be recorded and used as a parameters. Lockdowns do not alter past so DtL can’t account what has occurred before. Countries are different. The pre-lockdown R0’s (see pop. density) are different so DtL do not represent the number of pre-lockdown infections. Much better model would be obtained if pre-lockdown infections and deaths attributed to them were subtracted.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  351. utu says:
    @Skeptikal

    I read the CDC

    Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

    and I do not think your conclusion

    Thus if X lands in the hospital because of a positive SARS-CoV-2 test and then piicks up pneumonia in the hospital and dies of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia, not SARS-CoV-2 infection.

    is correct. Sometimes, yes but not always.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Skeptikal
  352. utu says:
    @glib

    As I said before get the raw weekly death data from

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/population-demography-migration-projections/data/database?node_code=demomwk

    In euromomo you do not know what 4sigma (red dashed line) means in the Fall. It is not the same what it is in Summer. The baseline in flu seasons is iffy and sigma is large. Euromomo algorithm makes data stiff, it is not sensitive to pick up changes where historical variance is large like in flu seasons. You will do better with raw data eyeballing.

    The “dry tinder” meme was invented by Swedish apologists who can’t deal with the fact that Norway and Finland had 10 times lower deaths per capita outcome. It basically says: Look, Sweden is bad because it was so good.

  353. Skeptikal says:
    @utu

    Then I don’t think you understand the instructions. Nor why physicians did not like being told to deviate from them just for covid-19.

  354. Chinaman says:
    @skrik

    Thank you.

    The Italian discovery is a shocker and push the date of genesis further back.

    I had a long discussion with our host, Ron Unz, on the wastewater studies and the illuminating studies done by commenter dux.ie here Peter Forester ( haven’t heard from him since May). As you can imagine, Unz is bent on his bioattack hypothesis and downplays all the empirical evidence that have came out since May. I guess there is a fine line between being skeptical and “ignoring the science”. However, he did point out an inconsistency that does contradict the narrative of a much earlier COVID genesis.

    If COVID have been spreading in Barcelona ( strains with the oldest genetic age and closest to RATG13) and Italy since March to September and was infecting at least 10% of the population ( per the antibodies) which would imply a relatively high R, why haven’t we seen overwhelming hospitalisation rate and morbid death tolls that we are seeing now? Given that R, Wouldn’t we have reach saturation and herd immunity by now ?

    I guess the best counter argument is that it took time for the virus to evolved into an alphabet soup of strains which are more lethal and virulent over time ( as we seen with the Swedish clad 20 strain) until it reached critical mass in say Jan 2020…or is it simply that China have better detection system due to SARS in 2003?

    One of the most perplexing questions I have is why haven’t we look at the genetic age of strains from the wastewater studies all over the world to see where they fit on GISAID. How close was the Barcelona wastewater sample from March to RATG13? I know those sample are just fragments of the genetic sequence but if we can identify and detect it as COVID, doesn’t that mean we are able to match its sequence with known samples ? Sorry, I am just a layman.

    In any case, I would love to get your take on the matter.

    By the way, Have you correspond with dux.ie privately on the matter? The ins analysis he have done is gold.

  355. Skeptikal says:
    @utu

    I am not a doctor, so my example is extremely rough.
    It is not drawn from reality, as is the example on a genuine pre-Covid Blue Form.
    There is no need to provide a new link—-I already provided the wording of the original Blue Form in my own post.
    You are just creating a dust storm to cover your tracks.

    • Replies: @utu
  356. utu says:
    @Skeptikal

    “I am not a doctor…” – I know. If you were you would have more nuanced understanding of the reality, that a spectrum deaths cases in covid infected people is broad and there is no clear and definitive line between the so-called death of covid and the death with covid cases.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  357. @Chinaman

    I guess the best counter argument is that it took time for the virus to evolved into an alphabet soup of strains which are more lethal and virulent over time (as we seen with the Swedish clad 20 strain)

    I suppose I should investigate this parenthetical claim, but in terms of immune system response, it’s still one “variant.” That said, if from a natural source, per for example Alina Chan and general principles it should have been adapting to humans for a period of at least several months prior to its frozen status as of the official outbreak in Wuhan. And in that period, transmitting better, and perhaps as part of that becoming less lethal (dead people don’t breath and transmit respiratory viruses well…). But for proving that:

    One of the most perplexing questions I have is why haven’t we look at the genetic age of strains from the wastewater studies all over the world to see where they fit on GISAID.

    Unlike DNA, which is never involved in a wild type COVID-19 infection, mRNA is very fragile, for example it’s only a single strand of RNA nucleotides, instead of the self-reinforcing famous “double helix” of DNA. By the time it’s in a sample of sewage, it might just be chopped up into so many, so small sequences trying to piece it back together is impossible, or impractical, or impractical for these groups who I assume are more interesting in public health monitoring.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
    , @Chinaman
  358. Nancy says:

    Just in!! (yeah, I know the top gastro doc in Australia’s been shouting about it for weeks, but…)
    For those who are ‘hesitant’ regarding the ‘warp speed’ vaccines, this may be heartening news …..it appears a very effective and affordable treatment is available. Science is nailing down the details as we speak : ) (references to the studies are at the website)

    Ivermectin against covid-19
    Published: November 29, 2020

    According to recent studies and RCTs in various countries, the antiparasitic drug ivermectin – a WHO essential medicine – is achieving a covid-19 risk reduction of up to 98% in pre-exposure prophylaxis and up to 91% in early treatment. A recent French study found a reduction in severe and fatal covid by 100% even in high-risk nursing home patients with an average age of 90.

    Moreover, an analysis just published in the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents found that African countries using ivermectin as prophylaxis against parasites report a much lower – in fact, near zero – covid incidence compared to other African and non-African countries.

    The very high reported effectiveness of low-cost ivermectin against SARS-like coronavirus infections may turn out to be a major medical discovery. Doctors and health authorities are encouraged to consider the ivermectin studies overview and the ivermectin-based US-FLCCC treatment protocol.

    https://swprs.org/ivermectin-may-defeat-covid-19/

    • Replies: @utu
  359. @gleongelpi

    Go to the CDC yourself. It is clear: There has been no meaningful increase in the number of deaths this year from last year.

    The relevant page is here. The relevant columns are 3 and 4, “Deaths from All Causes” and “Percent of Expected Deaths” with a subscript 2:

    Percent of expected deaths is the number of deaths for all causes for this week in 2020 compared to the average number across the same week in 2017–2019….

    Except of course for the most recent weeks, since it can take as many as eight weeks for them to get death certificates (that’s extensively discussed), there’s not a week starting with 2/22/2020 that hasn’t been over 100%.

    If you want to weasel word out of this by claiming the percentages over 100% aren’t “meaningful,” sure, go ahead, neither of us is I assume prepared to make a real statistical analysis of that. But I would claim as a first cut any weeks that are 120% or greater over the baseline are absolutely “meaningful,” and there’s eleven of those so far, with two weeks peeking at 142%. My intuition says 115% would be a better metric, but I don’t know enough statistics to justify that as math.

    Note if you want to correlate this to hospital capacity you need to add the average number of days it takes for a COVID-19 patient to die, which very possibly has changed since the first wave.

    Also, no one is denying the death rate is down now that we’re better at treating it, but is anyone seriously looking at morbidity statistics? That can be a very big thing, was for example with polio. FDR didn’t die of polio, but as I understand it never again walked unaided, stood up without leg braces etc.

    Furthermore, you must realize that the number of death increase every year. That should not need an explanation.

    Here I’m talking deaths per week, this year vs. previous years, so, yes, your claim really needs an explanation if you’re referring to this page, or anything related to it.

  360. Chinaman says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Not sure whether you have read the commenter dux.ie ‘s independent research on COVID strains. He mention there is a new strain in Sweden (due to their herd immunity policy ) which is spreading all over and much more virulent. In any case. His research is was a revelation and I am shocked that his studies are not made public. He did make references to self-censorship amongst the research community once Trump declared it the “China virus”. Most Americans are hostile to the growing body of evidence on the genesis of the virus…I guess it is hard to get rid of an image of some Chinaman eating bats.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  361. utu says:
    @Nancy

    More hype from the “Swiss Policy Research” site? They have already went through HCQ, zinc… hype. What about coffee enemas and vinegar vaginal douching?

    Latin America’s embrace of an unproven COVID treatment is hindering drug trials. (Dec. 02, 2020)
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02958-2

    Ivermectin grabbed attention in April, when scientists were throwing every already-approved drug they could at the coronavirus. Researchers in Australia had noted that high doses of ivermectin could stop the virus from replicating in cells1. Shortly afterwards, a preprint appeared online that suggested the drug could reduce coronavirus-related deaths in people.

    That report was later removed from the site by some of its authors because, they told Nature, the study was not ready for peer review. The preprint had included an analysis of electronic health records by the company Surgisphere, which provided unreliable COVID-19 data sets that raised red flags for scientists in late May. By June, two other high-profile COVID-19 studies were retracted that contained data from the firm.

    • Replies: @Nancy
  362. Chinaman says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Unlike DNA, which is never involved in a wild type COVID-19 infection, mRNA is very fragile, for example it’s only a single strand of RNA nucleotides, instead of the self-reinforcing famous “double helix” of DNA. By the time it’s in a sample of sewage, it might just be chopped up into so many, so small sequences trying to piece it back together is impossible, or impractical, or impractical for these groups who I assume are more interesting in public health monitoring.

    Thanks. I would assume there was a significant amount of genetic material in the wastewater in order for it to be detected? I believe they use 2 protein markers ( or gene target?) IP2 and 4 to detect COVID in the Barcelona study which found the virus in March 2019. I guess it must match some preexisting IP4 sequences on GISAID in order for it to be identified but wouldn’t there be individual nucleotides letters that would have mutated or transposed on the same fragment of RNA? Again, I am a layman so bear with me here.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1

    What would be really interesting is how these snippets of RNA, in fragments or in whole, matches the strains found in Wuhan, Wouldn’t that resolve the whole origin question?

  363. Barzini says:

    Quantas Airlines of Australia has said it will not fly internationally those persons who have not taken the vaccine. Other airlines may follow suit. Insane.

  364. anon666 says:

    That Would Be Telling says:
    December 2, 2020 at 1:41 pm

    Literally advert copy./spamming. Not worth responding to and not surprised to see corporate spam being promoted on this white supremacist site, either. The two go hand in hand.

  365. P.A.Semi says: • Website
    @That Would Be Telling

    As I’ve written “Supposedly” – it’s THEM saying it was successful according to a wrong premise, of what “success” actually means. (Did it just prevent “results” of flawed PCR tests?) We didn’t verify that “success”. Neither we nor them have verified, which side-effects will occur within half a year. They themselves stated, that they will observe participants for next two years, which means, that for TWO YEARS this vaccine is EXPERIMENTAL. Period. Nuremberg Code applies…

    And no, they don’t understand immune system enough, if they claim, that initial response is anything permanent… They just didn’t have a time to test the immune system response after half year after vaccination, they even didn’t aim at that…
    That mRNA may be incorporated into DNA permanently via reverse transcriptase… As it was never sufficiently tested, we cannot preclude permanent damage… There is a difference from viral infection or vaccination, that both of these are eliminated by immune system shortly, they should not stay in body permanently being produced ever again…

    When Pfizer announced their success as planned on anniversary of Kristallnacht, since their jewish CEO Albert Bourla had planned stock sale for this date three months ahead, then boosted by their announcement, which has shown, that it was planned on this exact date, then the New York’s Cuomo announced, that they will be exempt from Warp Speed Treason, since they need to verify the vaccine with their own research… Which is right approach, and we should do the same also…
    It’s same, as if Japanese Mafia made you an “offer that cannot be refused” on the anniversary of Hiroshima… Be doubly more suspecting of something, from which New York jews are exempted!

    About ChAdOx1 – I’ve read the initial paper twice – https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.13.093195v1
    The virus was present also in nasal samples of those vaccinated chimps, just their lung damage was reduced. Which means, that the immune system over-reaction was reduced, while the virus was not eliminated…

    Is there any comparably scientific publication about Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, beside News Releases of their unsupported claims of “success” ?

    And then, I didn’t write “artificial new coronavirus”, but “artificial new virus” – it need not be Coronavirus again… I don’t know if Ebola, against “Dark Winter” Smallpox they’ve been actually warning, and there are multiple other choices…

    And no, it’s not Chicoms as you or them try to misdirect that, it was planned and engineered by Jews at Darpa and Moderna… Chicoms are just their puppets and collaborators…

    εξω δε οι *κυν** και οι φαρμακοι … (Rev22:15) – time is approaching to chase away all those harmful pharmacists and their *’xines* … https://gab.com/P_A_Semi/posts/105233505918562204

  366. @Chinaman

    Not sure whether you have read the commenter dux.ie ‘s independent research on COVID strains.

    Nope, but in searches just now, based on the headlines and summaries sounds like he was dead wrong on this topic in April, at least from the viewpoint of vaccines.

    He mention there is a new strain in Sweden (due to their herd immunity policy) which is spreading all over and much more virulent. In any case. His research is was a revelation and I am shocked that his studies are not made public.

    Do you mean he hasn’t published this on any website, or on Biorxiv? I couldn’t find anything just now with 5 minutes or so of searching, including on his name plus “covid” on Biorxiv. So I need some better pointers.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  367. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Lockdowns work!

    No, they don’t…

    Sweden’s Daily Covid-19 Death Curve:

    • Replies: @utu
  368. Abbybwood says:
    @Tor597

    What if all the people being “tested” with the swab up to their brains have already been vaccinated by the “swab”?:

    https://rense.com/general96/the-test-is-the-vaccine-dont-get-tested.php

    Obviously, unless one is in a position to KNOW if this is happening, we will not know. But this is worth looking into by some intrepid journalists.

    I really hope this is not true, because there would be no informed consent.

  369. @BeeGee

    Please do not take this as I am trying to argue. I am only trying to figure out the mechanism of working of this vaccine. I do understand that using dead virus was the original idea of creating vaccine.
    Cells in my opinion do not have any killing abilities. They only have capability of accepting certain substances and reject certain substances. So because they have no capabilities to kill the virus the virus does remain in the blood stream until body itself begins to create antibodies.
    I do not have any problem with that.
    My problem is that if the cells are modified to not to accept certain type or maybe shape of certain proteins, that means cells will not be accepting even proteins that are not infected.
    My opinion is that may have some unintended side effects.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  370. utu says:
    @geokat62

    The magnitude of the Swedish curve 10 fold per capita higher than in Norway and Finland demonstrate the effectiveness of lockdowns.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  371. Chinaman says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=dux.ie

    If you are interested in the science and not driven by ideology, you will find his research a gold mine but If you think the Chinese eat bats, you won’t understand anything he writes.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  372. P.A.Semi says: • Website

    And here we’ve got it:

    Pfizer vaccine is suspected of causing woman sterilization:
    https://healthandmoneynews.wordpress.com/2020/12/02/head-of-pfizer-research-covid-vaccine-is-female-sterilization/

    Which is probably why European Medicines Agency stopped or delayed the approval the same day that petition was published, of cause not stating this as a reason…
    https://www.rt.com/news/508482-covid-vaccine-approval-trust-germany/

    This is not some “Accidental Blunder”, this is by Design and by the Plan…

    On London Olympic Games Opening Ceremony 2012 they’ve been playing Coronavirus Epidemic with an outcome of “Blanket Dead Embryo” after the Vaccination…
    http://pialpha.cz/Log2012

    It was Planned, and not by Chinese, but by Bad Lords in London City, “The Powers That Should Not Be”, at their Talmudic bidding to exterminate all Christians and all Blasphemous Materialists, as written in Sanhedrin 51b, and as peddled by Noahide rabbis until today…

  373. Erebus says:
    @Skeptikal

    Such as MIT, which has developed and published articles (Dec. 2019) on a technology where the “tracking chip” actually is a substance within a dye that can be injected under the skin…

    “Microchips” are a red herring, and doubtless LadyTheo and That Would Be Telling know that well.

    Putting a little more meat on the bones…
    Invisible tattooing with a specialized dye, delivered along with a vaccine, could enable “on-patient” storage of vaccination history.

    By selectively loading microparticles into microneedles, the patches deliver a pattern in the skin that is invisible to the naked eye but can be scanned with a smartphone that has the infrared filter removed. The patch can be customized to imprint different patterns that correspond to the type of vaccine delivered.

    Equally doubtless is that the “tattoo” will outlive the efficacy of the faux “vaccines” such as Moderna’s which offer no immunity to infection at all.

  374. skrik says:
    @Chinaman

    correspond with dux.ie?

    No.

    How close was the Barcelona wastewater sample from March to RATG13?

    Not really relevant. Included in my last chat with dux.ie was the estimate that any common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 and RATG13 would lie 50 [a different estimate 35] years in the past, IMHO indicating that although RATG13 may be the closest match with SARS-CoV-2 [assuming ‘natural’ mutation rates], SARS-CoV-2 is most likely to be a chimera, then there’s the PRRA inclusion. Now with wastewater detections of *fragments*, we can’t possibly know what the proximate source was. Your idea that SARS-CoV-2 is mutating is correct, but mainly only in ‘little, insignificant steps’ = SNPs [pronounced ‘snips’], say. [One could posit that the covert developers made various samples which were tested on innocents, some with PRRA and some with other furin cleavage sites, say, so giving rise to the odd detections.]

    IMHO the really *BIG-Q* is where, when and by whom PRRA was included into the mug of hot bat soup.

    In other words:

    “Who put the bomp
    In the bomp bah-bomp bah-bomp?
    Who put the ram
    In the rama-lama ding-dong?”
    rgds

  375. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    The magnitude of the Swedish curve 10 fold per capita higher than in Norway and Finland demonstrate the effectiveness of lockdowns.

    Sweden currently ranked 24th in the world (and continually dropping) in terms of per capita deaths demonstrates the ineffectiveness of lockdowns.

    As for the issue of Sweden having a higher death rate relative to its Nordic neighbours, the report 16 Possible Factors for Sweden’s High Covid Death Rate among the Nordics gives a comprehensive explanation of why. While lockdown is one of the factors considered, it “accounts for but a small part” of Sweden’s higher Covid death rate. The key driver of the difference, according to this report, is the concept of “dry-tinder.”

    • Agree: Emslander
    • Replies: @utu
  376. @Zarathustra

    I do understand that using dead virus was the original idea of creating vaccine.

    That probably would be only once we decided in favor of the germ theory of disease in the 19th Century. Just before then, Jenner did it with the live cowpox virus, which by inference had protected dairy workers from smallpox; I don’t know if he believed in the germ theory of disease. Second general vaccines history is mixed, some live virus vaccines, but mostly favoring generally safer with the state of the art back then killed virus vaccines.

    Cells in my opinion do not have any killing abilities. They only have capability of accepting certain substances and reject certain substances.

    This gets complicated, there’s an innate immune system which keeps you alive until the New, Improved only 500,000 years old adaptive immune system can mount a tailored antibody mediated response in 10 days or so. One of its compnents is natural killer cells, which can recognize and destroy infected cells. I also came across a not yet well understood class of gamma delta T cells that have early in the response functions.

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
  377. geokat62 says:

    I’d like to see utu rationalize this statistic…

  378. @Chinaman

    You would do well to strip the insults and insinuations from your messages “If you are interested in the science and not driven by ideology….”

    OK, it turns out dux.ie is not “Forster,” searching on the right name in the future will make a difference. But from his commenting history, there’s nothing new and actionable, but going back to the summer he’s claiming a 20C clade from Sweden is extra deadly. To the extent I could quickly find out, it has only one nucleotide substitution in the section of the virus’ RNA that codes for the spike protein. For the moment, I’m going to assume that’s not enough to antigenically change it for the purposes of vaccines.

    In general, dux.ie and by inference Forster are not at all focused on that topic, but are using these generally minor mutations to track the spread of the disease, which IMHO is not in the least controversial (it obviously is for the purposes of casting blame on public health efforts, original origin of SARS-CoV-2, etc.). Claims that clade 20C is much more deadly, I don’t know about; will put it on my list but again, without it providing an antigenic shift in the spike protein, not relevant to discussions about vaccines.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  379. @skrik

    Now with wastewater detections of *fragments*, we can’t possibly know what the proximate source was.

    Since yesterday, I realized another reason why trying to tease out the sequence of a SARS-CoV-2 genome from sewage was likely impossible, and indeed, both the rotavirus and noroviruses use RNA. So sewage collected from a general location vs. say from one dwelling would include a stew of RNA from all three and perhaps more, and that makes reconstruction even more unlikely/difficult/expensive. I’d assume it’s effectively if not absolutely impossible. So instead, as you note, we search for very small fragments we know are unique to a particular virus or family of them and that can provide very useful information.

    • Replies: @skrik
  380. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    coronaviruses are unique among RNA viruses in having a proofreading mechanism

    Could you kindly give us a credible substantiation of this assertion, please? rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  381. @skrik

    Wikipedia on their replicase-transcriptase complex, “The exoribonuclease nonstructural protein, for instance, provides extra fidelity to replication by providing a proofreading function which the RNA-dependent RNA polymerase lacks.” Which cites a Journal of Virology paper that’s about figuring out the role of that protein in the mechanism. Also mentions at the very beginning that “CoVs encode a proofreading exonuclease in nonstructural protein 14 (nsp14-ExoN), which confers a greater-than-10-fold increase in fidelity compared to other RNA viruses.” which sounds like a significant difference.

    Since this paper is built upon the very concept of the proofreading mechanism, it should not have passed peer review unless it’s generally believed to exist. Also, the dux.ie research you like absolutely depends on this feature, since it’s tracking the minor and relatively infrequent mutations that get past the proofreading mechanism. His and others doing this would have a very different and much harder to interpret data set without it.

    • Thanks: skrik
    • Replies: @skrik
  382. @That Would Be Telling

    Yes! I do understand that.
    But those killer cell are cells in the blood stream. As I understand the novel vaccine purpose is to protect stationary cells mainly in lungs and heart. Blood itself has a plenty killer cells those are called white cells but they kill only bacteria, and they are no use to kill virus.
    The only way the body can get rid of unwanted particles in the system is to identify them in the kidney
    and send them into urine.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  383. Chinaman says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    My apologies. You did assumed he was wrong at first instance so I didn’t know whether you were just trolling or you wanted to have a discussion. As I said, I am just a layman and just here to learn and ask questions. However, you gave me the impression that you know your stuff, may I know your professional background?

    OK, it turns out dux.ie is not “Forster,”

    Sorry for my typos, my dyslexia is getting worst and English is not my first language.

    Anyway, Dux.ie went much further than Forster and replicated the phylogenetic study with more than 1000 samples vs 120. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the sample with the oldest genetic age comes from Barcelona and that the earliest wastewater ( Mar 19) also arises there. We yet find older samples in the future ( perhaps from the States). I think the genesis and origin of the virus is critical if we were to avoid future pandemics.

    For the moment, I’m going to assume that’s not enough to antigenically change it for the purposes of vaccines.

    I see that your focus on the vaccine. This might be a stupid Q but given the rapid mutation rate of RNA virus, is there a chance that it might fail as the virus gain “immunity” to these vaccines?

  384. Chinaman says:
    @skrik

    RATG13 would lie 50 [a different estimate 35] years in the past,

    Yes. RATG13 might not be most common ancestor after all.

    PRRA inclusion. Now with wastewater detections of *fragments*, we can’t possibly know what the proximate source was.

    Ok, I guess this is a bioweapon hypothesis. I probably need to go back to your conversation with dux.ie but I don’t think he ever indicated COVID was engineered or a bioweapon? I guess we can agree that it was spreading in Italy and probably Spain at least before September 2019 which would predates Wuhan by a month or so. Assuming the Spanish wastewater samples was not “planted”, how do you reconcile the notion that Spain is ground zero with the bioweapon narrative? Why Spain or Italy? Or you think China was covering this up way b4 Sept 19 ?

  385. @Chinaman

    A clear, yes-or-no question:

    I see that your focus on the vaccine. This might be a stupid Q but given the rapid mutation rate of RNA virus, is there a chance that it might fail as the virus gain “immunity” to these vaccines?

    But you’re not likely to get either — that would be telling.

    • Agree: Nancy
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  386. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ’em,
    And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum

    So what about a micro- or nano-phage to eat up all the SARS-CoV-2 virions? rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  387. Nancy says:

    Hmmm… and interesting question… which vaccine will Israel use? I understand a major Israeli hospital has already placed a large order for Russian vaccine. This is assuming they do not invent their own.

  388. @Greta Handel

    A clear, yes-or-no question:

    I see that your focus on the vaccine. This might be a stupid Q but given the rapid mutation rate of RNA virus, is there a chance that it might fail as the virus gain “immunity” to these vaccines?

    But you’re not likely to get either — that would be telling.

    Obviously there’s a chance. But why are you making such claims about me when I’ve already extensively discussed this issue in this topic’s comments???. Use your web browser’s F3/Control-F search feature on the word “conserved.”

  389. Emslander says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    She claims to have used the CDC’s data set, one or the other has made a big mistake in basic arithmetic.

    That is a pure lie. There was no misuse of data. Briand sticks by her data and her conclusions. She just isn’t arguing with the censorship, seeing what happens to people who don’t preach the Fauci religion.

    Read the takedown statement carefully. It says only that she “trivialized” the CDC figure of 300,000 deaths by using percentages and using them in relation to age groups. This is pure gobbledygook speech.

  390. @skrik

    Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ’em,
    And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum

    So what about a micro- or nano-phage to eat up all the SARS-CoV-2 virions? rgds

    That would require true Eric Drexler style and scale nanotechnology, because the “technology” of life already has viruses, and phages, which are just viruses against bacteria, all at a very small scale. But I’ve assumed also at a large enough scale that phage therapeutics have never gotten anywhere, for example they’re fantastically bigger than “small molecule” drugs including the antibiotics.

    Anyway, the “technology” we use of this sort uses the immune system, either supply antibodies, from convalescent plasma or artificial, both benefiting from Operation Warp Speed, or use a vaccine to create an immune system response against the virus including antibodies. Note I’m pretty sure in all three cases this response includes ones against cells already hijacked by the virus, best to stop the problem at the source.

    • Troll: Emslander
  391. @Chinaman

    About bioweapons or gain-of-function experiments which are indistinguishable from creating a bioweapon, don’t entirely focus on the “planted” concept. A leak from a laboratory is a very real possibility, and they have happened everywhere, including of course the PRC. Note such a leak could have a periodic character, extrapolate from the PRC vaccine production lab accident, “accidentally pumped out the bacteria into the atmosphere in exhaust air due to use of expired disinfectant.”.

    Filtration/disposal issues (here of contaminated air) don’t have to be dramatic like this one or the infamous Sverdlovsk anthrax leak (and if you want a real life example of a shill or worse, look no further than Matthew Meselson). So imagine a small air leak that happens periodically due to maintenance schedules, say there’s an error in the procedures or how they’re carried out in the real world.

    Another example comes from the U.K.:

    Britain’s recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease (FMD) were likely caused by faulty wastewater drains at a laboratory facility, which contaminated soil that was then spread by trucks to a nearby cattle farm….

    Contemplate that scenario, how it stretched out over a month and a half, and factor in everyone is on the lookout for foot-and-mouth disease outbreaks.

    Corona-chan is often asymptomatic, often has symptoms pretty much like other respiratory spread viruses, etc.; you might not realize it was a thing until it staged a big breakout. Especially in the country from which SARS originated, that is, one that’s much more on the lookout for another such outbreak. For the biomedical establishment in the PRC, SARS was quite a bit more than something they mostly read about in newspapers and journals.

  392. @Chinaman

    Every question you ask has already been answered in this topic’s comments. But one point you make bears further comment:

    I think the genesis and origin of the virus is critical if we were to avoid future pandemics.

    Agreed 100%. A lot of us think the highest probability is that it was a leak of a gain-of-function experiment (which would likely but not certainly require throwing that one single partly positive March Barcelona result out as experimental error). Which was funded in part by Saint Fauci’s institute of the NIH, and he strongly supports such true mad scientist “research.”

    This community, and the greater biomedical scientific community that would suffer collateral damage, want almost as much as the PRC to blame it on something else, and perhaps geographically somewhere else.

    • Replies: @Emslander
  393. @Zarathustra

    As I understand the novel vaccine purpose is to protect stationary cells mainly in lungs and heart. Blood itself has a plenty killer cells those are called white cells but they kill only bacteria, and they are no use to kill virus.
    The only way the body can get rid of unwanted particles in the system is to identify them in the kidney
    and send them into urine.

    Everything you understand to be correct in the above is in fact incorrect, except of course blood containing white blood cells. You need to get a basic foundation in medicine and related biology before you can usefully reason about all this.

  394. skrik says:
    @Chinaman

    I guess this is a bioweapon hypothesis

    Ma-a-ate! Some agent built the PRRA furin cleavage site in. IMHO, there are only two ‘valid’ choices: 1) the batwoman&Co or 2) Fauci&Co. You choose? To help, I offer this lemma:

    ‘At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    Consider also “conspiracy” = a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

    The agent who built PRRA in fits the bill; again #1 or #2?

    Q: Is [totalitarian/5k year old ancient civilisation] China benefiting? What motive?

    Whoever, but IMHO it’s definitely “premeditated mass-murder most foul.” rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  395. Emslander says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You’ve managed to drag this thread into the tall weeds, but then that’s what you were supposed to do, wasn’t it?

  396. I have just read this article, and found it interesting. I suggest that the author correct a problem in the following phrase:

    I would rather trust my own auto-immune system

    The correct expression would be simply “immune system”. It may be nitpicking, but sometimes these little things will harm the reception of an article.

    There is a huge volume of comments which I would like to examine but probably will do it at an impossibly slow speed.

    A caveat (I suppose commenters have already pointed this out): some of the criticism presented here is related to new technologies and so does not apply to the Chinese Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines, which use the old technology of inactivated viruses.

  397. @skrik

    Ma-a-ate! Some agent built the PRRA furin cleavage site in. IMHO, there are only two ‘valid’ choices: 1) the batwoman&Co or 2) Fauci&Co.

    “Embrace the healing power of ‘and’.” Saint Fauci’s NIH institute was specifically paying “the batwoman&Co” to first collect viruses from bats for 4-5 years, then to do gain-of-function “research,” which Fauci was a big booster of. Somehow, most or all of those who were big on this research, which deliberately makes pathogens work better in humans, but weren’t, for example, ever able to point to specifics benefits coming from it have been silent about it after Corona-chan started stalking the Earth. Or so was the case before I stopped paying attention to them.

    • Replies: @skrik
  398. geokat62 says:

    George Hook with Mr. Martin Feeley Vascular Surgeon on Viral Realities!

    Description:

    Another excellent interview, this time between veteran George Hook and Mr. Martin Feeley, vascular surgeon – enjoy your “waking up” transformation, to how it really is…in good old reality.

  399. geokat62 says:

  400. geokat62 says:

    You don’t happen to live in Austin, TX do you, utu?

    Excerpts from, Democratic Austin Mayor Urged Citizens “Not To Relax… Stay Home” While Vacationing In Cabo:

    George Orwell’s Animal Farm gave us the useful phrase “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

    That book was written as an allegorical warning against communism, but, as PJMedia’s Bryan Preston details below, since COVID struck Democrats tend to use it as a how-to…

    Statesman.com’s Tony Plohetski reports the details that in early November, as health officials warned of a impending COVID-19 spike, Austin Mayor Steve Adler hosted an outdoor wedding and reception with 20 guests for his daughter at a trendy hotel near downtown.

    The next morning, Adler and seven other wedding attendees boarded a private jet bound for Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, where they vacationed for a week at a family timeshare.

    One night into the trip, Adler addressed Austin residents in a Facebook video:

    “We need to stay home if you can. This is not the time to relax. We are going to be looking really closely. … We may have to close things down if we are not careful.”

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/austin-mayor-urged-citizens-not-relax-stay-home-while-vacationing-cabo

  401. utu says:
    @geokat62

    the report 16 Possible Factors for Sweden’s High Covid Death Rate among the Nordics

    When the apologists have to come up with 16 excuses it is a sign of their desperation and that none of the 16 excuses is good. They come up with all kinds of consolations and excuses like that Sweden had a lot of “dry tinder” because supposedly it did not have flues in recent years unlike Finland or Norway.

    The “dry tinder” meme was invented by Swedish apologists who can’t deal with the fact that Norway and Finland have 10 times lower deaths per capita outcome. It basically says: Look, Sweden is bad because it is so good (it protected people from flu so well).

    Or another meme is about Africans. It is all the fault of Africans in Sweden. Again this is the same psychological meme: Look, Sweden is bad because it is so good (it takes a lot immigrants).

    Sweden currently ranked 24th in the world (and continually dropping) in terms of per capita deaths demonstrates the ineffectiveness of lockdowns.

    Comparing tiny countries like San Marino and Andorra with Sweden is not justified w/o taking into account other factors, most importantly population density. That some countries are catching up with Sweden like Czechia this is because in the second phase of the epidemic they just did nothing. They emulated Sweden thinking that the epidemic was over. That’s why they are as bad as Sweden. If Czechia was as diligent in the summer about tracking and tracing as Finland Czechia’s numbers would be as low as that of Finland.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @P.A.Semi
  402. @Abbybwood

    And nobody should be required or pressured to take it then, either.

    Thank you for what you are doing,

  403. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Comparing tiny countries like San Marino and Andorra with Sweden is not justified w/o taking into account other factors, most importantly population density.

    LOL! Ok, ok, if we remove San Marino and Andorra from this list, Sweden rises a whopping two spots to number 22…

    1. Belgium
    2. San Marino
    3. Peru
    4. Andorra
    5. Spain
    6. Italy
    7. North Macedonia
    8. UK
    9. Argentina
    10. Bosnia and Herzegovina
    11. USA
    12. Mexico
    13. France
    14. Brazil
    15. Montenegro
    16. Chile
    17. Czechia
    18. Ecuador
    19. Slovenia
    20. Bolivia
    21. Armenia
    22. Colombia
    23. Panama
    24. Sweden

    Look, when the experts at Imperial College London predicted back in March that the novel coronavirus could be as deadly as the Spanish flu (which killed up to 100 million people globally), with half a million dead in Britain and over two million dead in America, some of these governments could be forgiven for implementing the unprecedented measure of the quarantining of healthy people, by placing them under house arrest.

    But, here we are in early December and we have considerably more knowledge about the lethality of this virus. In the video I posted in comment 422, surgeon Martin Feeley makes the following observations:

    1. Children seemed to be minimally, if at all, affected. That’s huge because they are usually regarded as the transmitters.

    2. And even more surprisingly and happily, young people weren’t affected, to any great degree.

    The analogy for children under 14 years of age is that they’re more likely to be killed by lightning than they are by Covid-19. That’s a statistical fact. It isn’t a projection or modelling. It’s something that’s happened that we know of for the last nine months.

    3. Even more surprisingly and good, for people under 60 who don’t have any other illness… the risk is equal to a round day trip of 20km in a car. So, you’re more likely to die from a road traffic accident than from this disease.

    Given these minimal risks, Covid-19 is clearly not the Spanish flu and therefore lockdowns are not necessary. How anyone can defend the need for lockdowns at this stage is simply beyond me.

  404. utu says:

    Take the deaths/1M numbers and normalize by the pop. density. Assume the pop. density for Sweden is 1. And see what you get. I did it for 30 European countries using the effective pop. density. Sweden is the uncontested leader: SWE>IRE>FRA>BEL>SLV>CZE>ITA>CRO>UK>POL>POR>…

    In this metric Sweden is 6 times worse than Finland and 12 times worse than Norway. The effective pop. density of Finland is lower than that of Sweden while the pop. density for Norway and Sweden are pretty much the same.

    Given these minimal risks, Covid-19 is clearly not the Spanish flu and therefore lockdowns are not necessary.

    To minimize the death rate lockdowns are necessary. You can avoid lockdown only if you start vert aggressive and effective tracking and isolating cases when the infection rate is low. But once the infection rate goes above the threshold overcoming the ability of tracing and isolating you must go to a lockdown to bring the infection back to within the manageable range. Czechs did great with the lockdown but then forgot about tracing and isolating. OTOH Finland did great on both. Czechia did the opposite what Sweden did. First they got very strict and then they relaxed without effective tracking and isolating. Sweden had very midl countermeasure in the beginning but then when they saw the second wave coming they began to impose more countermeasure and get more into the effective tracking and isolating. Sweden is emulating Finland. This is the reason why Sweden did not go the way of Czechia in the second wave though still Sweden is about 8 times worse than Finland and Norway (October and November data).

    You should forget about the nonsensical ‘dry timber’ meme. This is just a meme to confuse the feeble minded.

    The fact that IFR is very close to zero for children is irrelevant if you can’t separate infectious children from those for whom IFR is high. Rich countries like Sweden that has the lowest occupancy per apartment in Europe will naturally cope better with infectious children as likelihood of three generational families occupying the same apartment is practically zero. Yet, Sweden still managed to kill 10 times more grandparents than the neighboring countries.

  405. P.A.Semi says: • Website
    @utu

    High death rates in Czechia are due to the completely wrong medical care.

    They banned Hydroxychloroquine early in spring, supposedly that it would be kept only for hospitals, and then after fraudulent Lancet article about it’s supposed dangers, they’ve stopped to use it completely… And then completely stopped talking about it in Media…

    Now they use only expensive and ineffective Remdesivir and oxygen supply in hospitals and almost nothing from GP, and the effects are disastrous… The Flu would kill also, if we had no remedies against it…

    This is by design…

    Censorship kills, the jewish MasMedia, Youtube and Facebook are responsible for hundreds of thousands of “Covid” deaths, because they’ve censored all information about therapies, chiefly HCQ, and our doctors do not get information from French or American doctors and they just believe MainStream propaganda…

    And Lock-downs and Masks kill – because the over-average death-rate in our country started in September with Lock-downs and Mask mandates in advance before spike in “Covid” deaths, and to this day the over-average death rate is about 40:60 above “Covid” deaths… (1500 weekly deaths over typical average of 2200, with only 870 ascribed to “Covid” in week 43 in October… November data are not available from Statistical Office independently from Medical Ministry yet…)

    • Replies: @utu
  406. Convid 19 for Dummies:

    https://strangerinajewishworld.blogspot.com/2020/12/19-for-dummies-i-dont-know-how-many.html

    Taking the Vaccine for Convid 19 is equivalent to selling your soul.

  407. utu says:
    @P.A.Semi

    “This is by design…”. – Right. You are an unhinge kook, πα½. Why don’t you drink some beer, have svíčková with houskové knedlíky and do what good sober minded Czechs do which is think less and enjoy life more.

    • Replies: @P.A.Semi
  408. Anon[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You are severely lacking in imagination if you can’t twist a mask requirement into something that solves both issues.

    As I stated earlier, you’re either an idiot blowhard, or a rather dim paid flack.

    I spent the better part of a decade in my life wearing respiratory protection for a living in industrial hazardous materials environments – custom fitted full masks & nose cups, often full isolation suits, both with rebreather & non rebreather apparatus, sometimes just a splash suit with full mask and filter cartridges.

    EVERY form of respiratory protection has serious issues with dead air pockets in the mask allowing for re-consumption of the contaminated products of exhalation – short of a full flow positive pressure suit with remote air source.

    This problem is only compounded when the wearer is untrained in the hygienic use and maintenance of said equipment – as is the general population. Just take a gander at the lemmings in the grocery store, handling product & produce, then reaching up with their filthy hands to adjust their filthy mask that they’ve used for multiple days.

    You’d be lucky to convince 50% of the population to wash their hands on a regular basis, much less school them in the proper use of respiratory protection.

    But, sure pal, your fucking gauze mask is going to save the population from an aerosolized virus.

    The only thing I have trouble imagining is what organization would be stupid enough to hire you. But, apparently the name of that organization is Pfizer.

    When you get your vax, ask them to jab it in your throat.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  409. utu says:
    @utu

    No-lockdown Sweden will close high schools for a month in bid to stem infections after 209 deaths were recorded in the last two days

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9016859/Coronavirus-No-lockdown-Sweden-close-high-schools-month.html

    BTW, In Spring schools for 16 years old and older were also closed in Sweden.

  410. @utu

    The fact that IFR is very close to zero for children is irrelevant if you can’t separate infectious children from those for whom IFR is high.

    But influenza is far deadlier to children that Covid-19 yet nobody ever bothered to do anything about it. And now they’re adopting all these extreme measures to protect mostly the elderly but they affect everybody. I’m sure some other approach should be taken that doesn’t inconvenience most of society, especially those that are least at risk. They also never tried to force the influenza vaccine on people as it was only recommended and younger people could travel, go to concerts, sports events, public gatherings, etc. without a vaccine passport even though the flu was deadlier to them than Covid-19 now. The approach to vaccinations should be the same as for influenza and even for the elderly, who are most affected, it should only be recommended and left to their own discretion.

    But I get it that this could be a paradigm shift in the way we view infectious diseases and that there may not be any going back to how it was before. Even if one accepts the medical establishment’s views on Covid-19 surely the criticism of so many respectable scientists, especially virologists, should be unsettling. Now if we could leave aside the business and political interests, then maybe settling the science would be easier.

  411. JL says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    I’d like to retract my statement calling you a shill and just chalk up your Russophobia to being a boomer unable to break out of your old cold war mentality. I will assume you are being honest and arguing in good faith.

    Which was my whole point, the approval and boasting happened one month before that trial started. Which is not a secret.

    It was approved by whom, and for what? I think you may be confusing its registration with approval, which are different afaik. The Russians recently presented Sputnik V at the UN, where they claimed that around 100K people had received it. Phase III trials have been ongoing since September, with around 30K-40K participants so far.

    So, what’s going on here? Because it looks like this vaccine existed as early as April. My suspicion is that they conducted a closed Phase III trial, without the fanfare and without publishing any results. This would account for their confidence before the official trial began. At the very least, they probably had good data on safety, if not efficacy. The Russians probably aren’t so stupid as to not realize that the whole world will be watching with extra scrutiny because nobody trusts them.

    But, hey, if you want to take an untested for efficacy, and safety in large numbers vaccine that Russia and Putin have staked their prestige on, be my guest.

    This doesn’t even make any sense. Why would someone be discouraged to take this vaccine by Putin and Russia staking their prestige on it, unless their goal is to ruin their reputations? Look, I understand that Sputnik V won’t be available to you, so it’s easy for you to glibly dismiss it by saying, well, it’s the Russians, so it can’t be good. But, this isn’t objective, nor is it helpful to those of us for whom this will be the first, potentially, only available vaccine.

    As a layman, without the relevant knowledge to properly analyze the data, I have to go on other more circumstantial clues to make a call. In this case, they look surprisingly good, and include the government’s confidence, its willingness to present data internationally, attempts to market it abroad and the receptiveness to these attempts. Israel has placed an order for 1.5 million doses, this after participating in the development via their Skolkovo presence and reportedly conducting their own independent study.

    As it is, I am a bit skeptical of the mRNK vaccines simply because it’s a new technology (though I’d seriously consider the Pfizer product if it was available). Of the adenovirus products, probably the J+J one will be the best, but it’s the latest in development and who knows when it will be available. AZ/Oxford is a shitshow and I won’t go near it, ever. So I’m probably gonna go with the Putler vaccine, call me crazy.

    • Agree: Erebus
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  412. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Corona-chan

    being your pet name for a putative Ft.Detrick bio-warfare death machine?

    From a post of mine on July 15, 2020 at 12:53 pm GMT:

    Now FYI, COVID-19 is *not* any sort of ‘normal’ flu. IMHO, it was derived from a bat virus, ‘best’ [or at least best known] candidate = RaTG13. My best guess: It was then ‘evolved’ by encouraging it to mutate in human cell cultures [lung, brain, heart, organs, etc.]. Then [CRISPR?] some ‘interesting’ bits were added [from HIV, say?] Quite literally, a ‘toxic cocktail’ far too often fatal

    The most interesting bit being the PRRA insertion. IF the batwoman’s team did all the ‘gain of function’ work AND delivered results to Fauci&Co THEN the PRRA insertion could have been done anywhere else [like Ft.Detrick, say]. *And* [thnx for the tip], your ‘Corona-chan’ is just a crude way of patsyfornicating the Chinese people, their science and nation. rgds

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  413. P.A.Semi says: • Website
    @utu

    I wouldn’t pay heed to your advice (about beer and svíčková), since I’m a vegetarian and abstinent, could say a tea-totaller, but that reminds me of one well-known Albeit Historic case…

    You two “utu” and “That Would Be Telling” seem to me just like two hired pharma trolls… (Somehow thus I imagine that force of 110,000 trolls hired recently by UN #PledgetoPause to swing public opinion and fight “disinformation” by official lies and disinformations…)

    How did you get to an opinion, that Sweden has higher fatality per population than for example worst of all Belgium ?
    You may see stats at Worldometer…
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    (I think they were cited here already…)

    And that the countries differ only by lock-down and tracing-snitching strategy ?

    The countries actually differ by therapies used, by 5G roll-outs, by flu vaccines in previous years, etc…

    These are by far more important to IFR, since as the Covid spreads, occasionally everyone would encounter it, same as every other flu, but the Outcomes Differ …

    And it may be even wiser to get Covid sooner and gain natural immunity (without sterilization and other harmful effects of vaxines)… All those lock-downs are just postponing the inevitable… Covid is here to stay, and we should not stop living just because of all fear…
    So far, it is just almost twice as bad as any recent Flu season, and that is mostly because we lack efficient therapies, because these were banned on-purpose…

    • Agree: Skeptikal
    • Replies: @utu
    , @acementhead
  414. @Anon

    But, sure pal, your fucking gauze mask is going to save the population from an aerosolized virus.

    I’m sorry I wasn’t clear about my point.

    To restate and improve, if you don’t believe real for some value of real masks on balance are worth it for limiting COVID-19 transmission, can you still fake them to hinder facial recognition gambits by our betters with limited bad side effects for the wearer? With your much greater understanding of industrial masks, I’ve only used the 3M 6200 half face respirators mostly for protection from dust for my allergies, is it possible to come up with designs that satisfy both criteria, while not being obviously fake to normies?

  415. @JL

    Why would someone be discouraged to take this vaccine by Putin and Russia staking their prestige on it….

    Because unlike you, I’m not assuming they did a secret Phase III trial prior to registration on August 11th. Which sure seems to be a rough equivalent to getting a FDA Emergency Use Authorization if, as you say, 100K people have taken it, while the public Phase III trial if a normal half experiment, half control one has at most given it to 20K people.

    Why on earth would Putin and Russia not reveal that they’d done a real Phase III trial?? They did themselves no favors by only publicly admitting to have done Phase I and II trials (or did they?) when it was registered, and only publishing the I and II results on September 2nd.

    so it’s easy for you to glibly dismiss it by saying, well, it’s the Russians, so it can’t be good

    Show were I said that, and how that squares with my earlier reply to you where I said, and I think quite clearly,

    In theory, it should be a good vaccine, their scientists for example anticipating a problem that’s shown up in the Oxford trials of the AZ/Oxford vaccine, which uses two doses using the same adenovirus virus vector (TL;DR a half dose for the first dose may work much better, likely it produces less of an immune system reaction to the viral vector itself, a carrier for the COVID-19 spike protein). Sputnik V uses two different adenovirus viruses, one for the initial dose, another for the second booster.

    My reservations are based on the reasonable assumption of no Phase III trials prior to the public one starting on September 10th, while trying to make political hay from it a month previously. That you have to resort to postulating secret vaccine, never revealed trials suggests your position is extremely weak, even before we get to you grossly misrepresenting what I said.

  416. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Take the deaths/1M numbers and normalize by the pop. density.

    You’re speculating…

    Excerpts from, COVID-19 Studies Are Proving That Density Is Not the Enemy:

    In the early months of the pandemic, it became deceptively obvious that dense cities were dangerous…

    The Washington Post columnist Henry Olsen proclaimed on March 19 that the suburban lifestyle was the nation’s “secret weapon” against the virus. “The data are crystal clear on this. China’s population density is 397 people per square mile. Italy’s is 532 people per square mile, and South Korea’s is 1,366. The United States, by contrast, has only 94 people per square mile. That’s got to be a fact in our favor.”

    Turns out it wasn’t.

    The arguments over density and this latest contagion have been largely speculative, resulting in an orgy of confirmation bias…

    It’s not about how close your neighbors are; it’s about where you go and whom you see…

    Yet those limitations only strengthen the argument that, when it comes to an epidemic, density isn’t destiny…

    Still, the conclusions are clear: packing into a crowd, then speeding to another, is a fine way to promote a pandemic. Whether you do that by subway or by pickup on the open road, the virus doesn’t care.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/covid-19-studies-are-proving-that-density-is-not-the-enemy.html

    To minimize the death rate lockdowns are necessary.

    Ridiculous. If one one small segment of society (those over 65 with multiple co-morbidities) is truly vulnerable to the virus, we should do our utmost to protect them, without destroying the lives of those who are not threatened by it.

    In Canada, 98.5% of covid deaths were in LTC homes. A policy to protect these people should have been devised and implemented. Locking down everyone doesn’t make sense in these circumstances.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @utu
    , @utu
  417. @skrik

    Corona-chan

    being your pet name for a putative Ft.Detrick bio-warfare death machine?

    It’s a meme.

    As for the detailed speculations about its origin you and many others are attempting, I can’t justify the months it would take me to get up to speed on the molecular biology of eukaryotes and SARS coronaviruses, although I was seriously tempted. Instead for SCIENCE!!! and making judgements for my friends and myself, I’m focusing at this detailed level only on vaccines.

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
    , @skrik
    , @Skeptikal
  418. utu says:
    @P.A.Semi

    “seem to me just like two hired pharma troll” – I am not.

    “How did you get to an opinion, that Sweden has higher fatality per population than for example worst of all Belgium ?” – to compare apples with apples you need to take care of confounding variables. One of them is population density. Once you normalize by pop. density Sweden has the highest deaths per capita in Europe. The effective population density should be used.

    “The countries actually differ by therapies used, by 5G roll-outs, by flu vaccines in previous years, etc…” – This is where we part our ways.

  419. @That Would Be Telling

    Please do not worry.
    Not even Pfizer president knows how it works:
    https://www.rt.com/news/508636-pfizer-vaccine-transmission-covid/
    So you are excused.
    I forgive you.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  420. skrik says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Your ‘Corona-chan’ meme is not funny, and it’s discriminatory towards China with *ZERO* proof.The addition of PRRA weaponised it. Somebody did it, and it’s my theory that it wasn’t China, since when they saw PRRA they panicked because a) they knew it was bio-warfare directed at them, since b) they knew that they didn’t add it in and c) they realised what it meant = furin cleavage site = at least 10x infectivity. This much is now well known.
    The reasons given for bio-research, primarily pushed by DARPA, primarily done by US agencies across the world, even including Wuhan, is to *protect* US soldiers.
    Yet here we have a bio-warfare agent that has already destroyed ‘our world as we knew and liked it,’ transforming it into a non-stop nightmare getting worse, no ‘good’ end in sight.

    Well done TPTB = IMHO almost exclusively US/Z rogue-regimes. rgds

    PS No vaccine is likely to save us, going on what we can see of what’s being produced and likely to be available, since it is unlikely that ‘the West’ will allow any Russian or Chinese contribution to reach us, we the [Western] people. Boohoo but carpe diem.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  421. @John Wear

    It is about 15 minutes long and discusses the dangers of the new vaccine.

    I only watched 5 minutes and then skimmed for another 3, and she’s spending as much speculating about evil stuff that might be added to COVID-19 vaccines as to their being bad per se, which is possible, but not germane to this discussion. For the science, she’s very ignorant all around, at the “failed or forgotten first year first course for biologists etc. college biology level” when she would have taken it.

    For the details of Moderna’s work, it’s true they’ve never brought anything to market prior to this COVID-19 vaccine, but they have been working on mRNA technology for a decade, and switched from therapies to vaccines a few years ago. That’s why they were able to make their vaccine candidate in a couple of days after the first publication of SARS-CoV-2 genomes on January 10th.

    She confounds Moderna’s Phase I and II trials, and the single most devastating bit is that she doesn’t understand that Phase I trials are all about dosing. That the people who got the highest dose of 250 mcg all had bad side effects is exactly the sort of thing you expect to happen in a Phase 1 trial, where they also tried 25 mcg, a whole order of magnitude lower, and 100 mcg. Phase II tried the latter and 50 mcg, Phase III settled on 100 mcg as the best bet for the FDA’s duo of “safety and efficacy.”

    I think the major issue of antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) came after that, and she’s ignorant of how after a SARS vaccine animal trial ended disastrously like the first human RSV one as she mentions, it was realized it was an ADE problem, and the necessary research was done to get around it (for details on that, search on “RSV” in this topic’s comments, and here’s a great analogy Jack D came up with with a bit of cleanup:

    The shorter version is that the real spike protein is like a folded up spring which unfolds when it grabs onto and fuses with a cell and the spike protein in the vaccine has had some molecular twist ties added so that the spring can never unfold and actually fuse with your cells. But the pre-fusion (folded) shape of the spike protein is the same so that the antibodies that your body creates for the vaccine spike protein also work against the real spike protein in the virus. But ADE is triggered only by the post-fusion (unfolded) form of the protein and since you are not doing that there is no ADE reaction.

    Moderna and BioNTech, maybe Pfizer as well, don’t know if they’d partnered by then, were so confident the problem had been solved, and the need for speed was so high, that they started animal testing in parallel with Phase I testing. Risky for the human test subjects, but it paid off fantastically.

    Dr. Madej says the new vaccine can affect our DNA.

    She’s amazingly ignorant about all of this. Critically important, introducing mRNA into cells for the purpose of vaccination is nothing like introducing DNA into a cell line you then explicitly harvest to create a stable GMO.

    To make a GMO of a human, you’d need to stably alter a lot of cells that will stay around, perhaps use an embryo. Here, a relatively few cells get mRNA injected into them. That mRNA hijacks some of the cells’ protein manufacturing capability to pump out stabilized copies of the spike protein. But that lasts only so long, because there’s enzymes that tear down mRNA strands into their individual nucleotide components for recycling. And I believe, really, this has to also be a regulation mechanism, a cell can’t send out mRNA from the nucleus, where it was made by copying from the DNA inside it, and have it pump out proteins forever.

    So the mRNA gets scavenged in due course, but not before arranging to have copies of the spike protein presented on the surface of the host cells. Which the immune system recognizes as alien, and kills the cells with vigor, you want to stop viral infections at the source. There’s also no legitimate path from RNA to DNA. That’s not to say someone of evil intent can’t slip some reverse transcriptase into a vaccine, but that can be trivially detected, and of course would be criminal.

    Now, if you think all this indeed rushed, but not to the point of cutting corners aside from the above mentioned parallel animal tests vaccine development is a criminal conspiracy, as she implies at the very beginning of the video by talking about transhumanism and several transhumanists, sure, but that’s again not germane if you’re assuming this is just another emergency development of vaccines.

    You think this was fast? Protein Sciences whipped up a batch for a bird flu outbreak in Asia in a couple of weeks back in the ’00s. Although that was using a single protein vaccine platform they were developing for the flu, which got full approval by the FDA in 2013-4.

    • Replies: @John Wear
  422. @Zarathustra

    Not even Pfizer president knows how it works:
    https://www.rt.com/news/508636-pfizer-vaccine-transmission-covid/

    You expect me to not follow your link and discover you’re lying?? No one knows if these vaccines stop transmission, that’s not information that can be extracted from the Phase III trials today, or perhaps ever, or at least as solidly as the evidence they prevent symptomatic COVID-19 infections. As always, look at the freaking endpoints defined for a trial; if you want to check for Pfizer/BioNTech I’ll look up the link again, here’s Moderna’s. We’re working on the reasonable assumption they do stop transmission based on our long history of studying this in “active” vaccines as I’m now calling the class of live virus vaccines that have been extended to mRNA ones.

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
  423. blaqua says:

    Let hundreds of thousands of Chinese take first the vaccine and we’ll see its efficacy. They are the ones who started the whole mess and since the virus is still widespread in China (the numbers reported by the CCP are criminal lies and an effort to mask their pandemic and deny responsibility), they need a vaccine.
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3107297/time-china-align-global-practice-counting-coronavirus-cases
    ‘In a government statement about the latest Covid-19 outbreak in China’s Kashgar city on Tuesday, there were five confirmed cases but a further 178 without symptoms tested positive. […] The 178 people who tested positive are not counted as confirmed cases.’

    https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-reports-561-new-coronavirus-cases
    https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-reports-449-new-coronavirus-cases
    https://apnews.com/article/south-korea-coronavirus-pandemic-asia-seoul-005db36a7fdc00cb506104dab39ee085

    Hundreds of cases in Tokyo and S. Korea every day, but none or one in China? Yeah right!

  424. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    If you don’t think either Dr. Andrew Kaufman, M.D. or Dr. Carrie Madej, D.O. are credible, I don’t know what else I can send you. I could give you a David Icke video, but I know you would not find him credible.

    So I will end my discussion with you. I am a CPA and JD with no medical training, so I have no expertise in this area. I will simply say that I find Dr. Kaufman and Dr. Madej to be much more credible than you. I will never take the COVID-19 vaccine.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  425. @That Would Be Telling

    Now you just did let me know that this vaccine is phony just like you.

  426. Now if you are so smart tell me what term “effective” in this case encompasses?

  427. Swede says:

    The author only mentions the risk of dying as the sole reason to get the vaccine. But a large group, not all, also get affected in serious ways altough they do not die. For example you could get the virus and survive but have reduced lung capacity for the rest of your life. This is something that will also affect your work capacity and quality of life. So also a person with a low risk of dying from the virus should take the vaccine. This is not just about life and death but your general wellbeing and your quality of life. All vaccines carries with them risk. If you dont take the vaccine this risk of getting insomnia or whatever dissapears. On the other hand you are than likelely to eventually contract the virus. You must way the risk it involves taking the vaccine against all the risks involved with contracting the virus. And geting the virus usually dont lead to death but often to other health related issues.

    • Replies: @Emslander
  428. @John Wear

    I only state with absolute certainty that Dr. Carrie Madej, D.O. is not credible (and that’s not because she’s a D.O., I prefer them over M.D.s for primary care physicians). She doesn’t know the most basic facts of molecular genetics, for which I have serious formal training, and FDA trials, which anyone can look up with today’s Internet. She appears to have started with general principles, such as “GMOs are bad,” incorrectly extrapolated them to mRNA vaccines, and then didn’t check her work with her own research, or talking to people who know these things, which is the really unforgivable sin.

    Note you’ll get this same opinion from any good biology college student who’s finished their second year or so, and anyone who’s done the most basic of research into FDA trial structures. So if you really care, find one of the former to ask, and you can do the latter yourself.

    • Replies: @John Wear
  429. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    You seem to think Dr. Carrie Madej is imagining conspiracy theories in regard to the proposed vaccine affecting our DNA. You might find her interview with Dr. Andrew Kaufman informative.

    This whole interview is very interesting. However, since you seem to be busy replying to everyone on this discussion thread, you can listen to her starting at 44:53 of this video and ending at roughly the 57:00 mark. Dr. Madej says she attended a meeting in 2014 where the modification of people’s genomes was discussed. In a later meeting in 2015, the coming surveillance system is discussed.

    So even if Dr. Madej is ignorant of biology, she has attended a meeting where medical experts were discussing modifying the human genome. Do you think Dr. Madej is lying or delusional?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  430. Rocha says:
    @Zarathustra

    Viruses are DEAD ORGANIC MATTER.
    They have no nucleus or mitochondria and cannot respire or replicate. They are indistinguishable from exosomes.
    There is no such thing as a LIVE virus.
    Therefore they cannot be weaponized. The poisons are in the vaccines.

  431. @John Wear

    I think you said it well, “So I will end my discussion with you.”

    • Replies: @John Wear
  432. Al this blah blah blah.
    So I did go on Google.
    So here it goes.
    The dosage in injection reaches only limited number of cells. It does not penetrate the membrane of the cell it only paints the the picture of the virus on the membrane of the cell. The red cells read the picture and carry message of the picture to the spleen. Spleen start to create antibodies.
    So here is not much new. The work is done by your immune system. Vaccine is only stimulus for your own immune system.
    So if Google does not lie I have no problem taking the vaccine injection.
    Unless Bil gated put something into dosage.

  433. Liza says:
    @Rocha

    You are probably correct. Yet everyone is fixated on avoiding contact with viruses.

  434. @Rocha

    Viruses are DEAD ORGANIC MATTER.
    They have no nucleus or mitochondria and cannot respire or replicate. They are indistinguishable from exosomes.
    There is no such thing as a LIVE virus.
    Therefore they cannot be weaponized.

    True, referring to them as “live,” the Salk type vaccine as a “killed” virus, is considered by many or most in the biology community as literally incorrect. But most of us don’t think we need to shout this.

    But are they inert when they touch a cell, and then their contents goes into it?? (technically the viral payload plus a living cell … although for how long?)

    The poisons are in the vaccines.

    And a good thing too, you don’t want to get injected with a dose including bacteria or fungi, bypassing the body’s normal defensive layers, from a multi-dose vial after its first etc. doses are withdrawn and replaced by unpurified air, would you? See the toxicologist maxim, “the dose makes the poison.” Look up the LD-50 for, say, water.

  435. John Wear says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    I am merely asking you to respond to Dr. Carrie Madej’s interview where she said that medical experts at a conference she attended in 2014 said that they could modify people’s genomes.

    Do you think Dr. Madej is lying or delusional? Or do you think that the information she heard at this conference is accurate? Unlike myself, you claim expertise in this area. I would like to know your opinion.

    • Replies: @Awash
  436. anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    The armies of JTRIG and Big Pharma sock puppets yammering at us with cherry-picked minutiae are failing faster the faster they talk.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/vaccine-opponents-are-gaining-facebook-battle-hearts-and-minds-new-map-shows

    Your industry is terminally corrupt, and it has captured the regulators in the US and its satellite states. We do not trust you drug-dealing scumbags. Science has nothing to do with it. Big Pharma doesn’t do science, they do advertising disguised as science. Your industry is discredited, disgraced, and you cannot manipulate our trust back.

    Stick your vaccine up your cunt.

    • Agree: TheTrumanShow
  437. anarchyst says:

    According to a study the esteemed “Dr.” Fauci conducted approximately 4 years ago,the major cause of deaths during the “1918 flu pandemic” was bacterial pneumonia, NOT influenza. The common denominator was the (forced) wearing of masks. Sound familiar? Look for an uptick in respiratory illnesses in the coming months due to mask-wearing. The study is available on the internet…

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  438. @anarchyst

    According to a study the esteemed “Dr.” Fauci conducted approximately 4 years ago,the major cause of deaths during the “1918 flu pandemic” was bacterial pneumonia, NOT influenza.

    Secondary infection; a general most basic medical knowledge background that includes such concepts is table stakes for discussing COVID-19. Saint Fauci was also the anchor, as in last name on the paper, meaning he didn’t actually do the research, was at most the PI, but I wonder about that.

    The common denominator was the (forced) wearing of masks.

    I’ve skimmed that paper, as well as searched it for the word “mask,” and it does not say anything about them.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  439. anon[146] • Disclaimer says:

    Lots of disembodied internet voices with layman’s explanations at their fingertips, taking up most of their valuable time on a weekday, telling you why m-RNA vaccine is safe.

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/glaxosmithkline-plead-guilty-and-pay-3-billion-resolve-fraud-allegations-and-failure-report

    Big Pharma bosses are criminals. They flouted the FDC Act and didn’t go to jail. They addicted you to opiods. They illegally promoted and lied about Paxil, Welbutrin, and Avandia.

    What kind of idiot would believe, much less trust, their bedtime stories? Let a couple million NPR dupes be their guinea pigs.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  440. @anon

    Lots of disembodied internet voices with layman’s explanations at their fingertips

    Because we’ve been explaining science and technology to laymen since the 1970s? When you’re 3SD smarter than the average, that and a patient attitude is one way of keeping sane while growing up.

    taking up most of their valuable time on a weekday

    You seriously underestimate my research, learning, and writing speeds. Plus see the dates, I’m retired, if I can convince some number of people to keep open minds, it’s well worth it. Not to mention being challenged on my points results in doing a lot of very useful research.

    telling you why m-RNA vaccine is safe

    Not hardly, more like that that a whole bunch of claims about them are not just false, but really stupidly false. The proof is in the testing, which also has a huge number of false claims, and we’re only at the apply for a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) stage, or what I gather is the equivalent for the U.K.

    That said, the numbers of people in the Phase III trials are normal for drug and vaccine testing, the bigger question is the claim two months of safety data is enough for an EUA that will nonetheless result in tens of millions getting vaccinated, although add a minimum of 17-20 days for FDA examination and discussion of the applications. None of which, I should note, have been approved yet.

    Then for most of us discussing this, it’ll be months before we’re even eligible, so the guinea pigs first tens of millions who get it under the EUA will help reveal those one in a million problems (the true guinea pigs were the brave humans who risked taking these vaccines while animal studies were done in parallel, and let us say courage is not exactly on prominent and wide display in these Unz.com discussions). And I’ll say right now, I’ll be extremely surprised if none of the people who take these vaccines are maimed or killed, although it can be very hard to see if it’s “from the vaccine, or with the vaccine” to use that meme of those who doubt death counts formally attributed to COVID-19 (which I ignore by looking at all cause mortality).

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
    , @anon
  441. anarchyst says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Put 2 and 2 together. During the “flu pandemic” of 1918, mask-wearing was codified in to LAW in most areas of the country. One could be jailed for not wearing a mask.
    Breathing in your own exhalations is never good…
    Regards,

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
  442. @anarchyst

    During the “flu pandemic” of 1918, mask-wearing was codified in to LAW in most areas of the country.

    May or may not be true, but you are flatly wrong about what the Fauci paper actually says.

    Ignorance is one thing, but flat out lies people aren’t willing to admit upon being called on them are another. I think it’s time I take a break from this miasma of deliberate as well as inexcusably ignorant falsehoods.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  443. Chinaman says:
    @skrik

    The addition of PRRA weaponised it. Somebody did it, and it’s my theory that it wasn’t China, since when they saw PRRA they panicked because a) they knew it was bio-warfare directed at them, since b) they knew that they didn’t add it in and c) they realised what it meant = furin cleavage site = at least 10x infectivity.

    Thanks. For the uninitiated, can you explain why PRRA cannot have evolved naturally and is bio-engineered? I know about the 50 years of genetic distance between COVID and RATG13 but if we can deduce that timeframe from the natural mutation rate, how can we be confirm PRRA sequence is unnatural?

    More importantly, how could we explain that that COVID started in March to September 2019 in Spain and Italy ( per wastewater and antibodies studies) if it is indeed a bioweapon?

    I initially had the same ideas as you did but the empirical evidence seems to point to a much more mundane origin. Pandemics occur with such regularity that occam’s razor seems to be applicable here,

    • Replies: @skrik
  444. Skypilot says:

    Great article! Personally, I will never take any kind of vaccine. Is there a way to make an editorial regarding the vaccine violation of the Nuremberg Code? All the governments and big pharma must have forgotten this code.

    https://www.queensu.ca/urs/sites/webpublish.queensu.ca.urswww/files/files/HSREB/2017/The%20Nuremberg%20Code.pdf

    Especially to the fact the Bill Gates is in total violation with his vaccine process in India and Africa. According to the Nuremberg Code, the producers must be their own subject tester before using it on anyone else and only by the volunteer’s permission. There cannot be any mandate by any government to force anyone to take this bad idea of a vaccine.

    Even the Germany attorney, Dr. Reiner Fuellmich who is working with Robert Kennedy, Jr., are suing the maker of the PCR test and other officials for manslaughter, defamation and other maleficence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjrY-I7v–Q&feature=youtu.be

    This is all a fearmongering hoax, like you say, for the big pharmas and Gates, to make billions. Everyone is sick of the way this world is turning and the government intervention.

  445. anon[460] • Disclaimer says:

    465. Where to begin. Explain the science all you want. Preen about your deciles and percentiles and the fruits of your graduate apple-polishing at your famous institution that lives on DoD work, and NIAID work (just like Baric, who started all this, as you know, since you keep up…) You don’t know what they’re hiding either unless they hired you. And if you think nothing matters but the science, you’re an idiot savant. These are criminals you’re trying to lecture us about. Criminals, indemnified for any proven harms.

    This is a common academic compulsion, to teach us little textbook lessons as though that explains how the world works. Equally self-confident economists were mansplaining the world to us in terms of toy discounted cashflow models while the banks were looting the fisc at macro scale. Now it’s your turn. (Or did you also pontificate to underdeveloped African natives about ceftriaxone? That too was theoretically safe and efficacious.)

    And come off it with the brave human shit. You know that millions are budgeted for social engineering to manipulate consent. When criminal corporations have corrupted their regulators and whole fields of inquiry like immunology, you’re not brave to submit to their medical experimentation, you’re stupid. Or in any case, not quite tip-top. In your crooked college town, the really smart people go make the big bucks preying on gullible masses.

    Say hi to Alina! She’s cleverer than you by half, she caught them covering their tracks!

  446. @That Would Be Telling

    “And I’ll say right now, I’ll be extremely surprised if none of the people who take these vaccines are maimed or killed, although it can be very hard to see if it’s “from the vaccine, or with the vaccine” to use that meme of those who doubt death counts formally attributed to COVID-19 (which I ignore by looking at all cause mortality).”

    Re specifically: (which I ignore by looking at all cause mortality).

    Would the “all cause mortality” you refer to (above & elsewhere) be the same as
    “TOTAL U.S. DEATHS [ALL CAUSES]:” as it is used in (table of results) in the following article?

    Statistics Show that the Number of People who Died in the U.S. in 2020 will be the SAME as Previous Years, in Spite of COVID

    https://vaccineimpact.com/2020/statistics-show-that-the-number-of-people-who-died-in-the-u-s-in-2020-will-be-the-same-as-previous-years-in-spite-of-covid/

  447. Awash says:
    @John Wear

    That was a good exchange you guys have. The last questions were reasonable. What does troll mean?

    • Replies: @John Wear
  448. Erebus says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    … (Russia) approved their Sputnik V vaccine one month before they started Phase III efficacy trials…

    No they didn’t. They registered it, which is a requirement for Ph. 3 trial (at least in Russia).

    But theory must be tested in the real world … and for now Sputnik V is a political stunt.

    With that, you can be written off as a Russophobic American who’s swallowed his Kool-Aid, or a Pfizer salesman, or both. To counter your rather flippant dismissal of the competition, the following are some facts for readers to ponder.

    The Gamaleya Center was founded 130 yrs ago. It has one of the world’s unique virus libraries, and incorporates a small scale manufacturing facility. Since focussing its work on human adenoviruses in the 1980s, it’s become the leading authority on their use, including successful Ebola vaccine. The Centre spent 10 yrs developing Sputnik’s unique “1-2 punch” vaccine platform for their MERS virus, which was ready to go to human testing when SARS-2 came along. According to the head of the research lab, after having a look at the genome they received from China, it took them about 2 hours to come up with their plan to convert their MERS vaccine to SARs-2. By Feb 2020 the researchers were injecting themselves and it’s been “in the field” since March, vaccinating volunteers and VIPs in the Russian govt.

    Here’s the comparison between platforms: The numbers reflect Human Adenovirus, Chimp Adenovirus, mRNA platforms respectively…

    Existing approved antiviral vaccines: 3(Ebola), 0, 0
    Existing approved cancer medications: 2, 0, 0
    Years of wide scale use: 17, 0, 0
    Completed & on-going studies of long term safety: Yes, 0, 0
    Number of completed Ph. 3 trials: 4, 0, 0
    Number of clinical trials: 254, 67, 165
    Number of people tested in completed trials: >20k, 10k
    Number of people in scheduled clinical trials: >600k, <50k, <100k
    Number of scientific articles focused each platform: 353, 134, 109

    Using a single human adenovirus as the vector has problems with efficacy as the subject may tend be “immune” to the vaccine, but the probability of immunity to 2 different adenoviruses in quick succession drops dramatically. The secret (apparently) lies in the dosages, dosage ratio and timing of the 2 adenoviruses chosen. Getting that right kicks the subject’s immune system into gear. It took 10 yrs to get those right in working on the MERS vaccine, for which Gamaleya holds a patent.

    All stages of clinical testing, incl Ph 1 & Ph 2 trials were completed prior to registration, with zero unforeseen/undesirable side effects. Sputnik V’s efficacy was confirmed by the presence of antibodies as well as activation of cellular immunity. The latter infers that it’s efficacy will remain high for years. Ph 3 is underway in several countries, and is currently available in Russia under the emergency use rules adopted for SARS-2.

    Meanwhile, we learn Moderna’s & Pfizer’s mRNA vaccines offer no immunity against infection at all, and their long term effects are utterly unknown. That’s what triggered the companies’ demands for legal indemnity against future lawsuits. That they were granted indemnity does nothing to increase confidence. All of the benefits accrue to the companies, while the public takes the risks.

    In my book, and I think in the mind of any rational observer, the “political stunts” label sticks to them far more reliably than Sputnik V. That reliability only increases as one’s view widens to include the socio-political-financial-legal ecosystems in which they operate.

    Given that you doubtless knew all that, I’ll agree with JL. You’re a politically and/or financially motivated shill. Such credibility as your many informative posts developed here took an all but mortal blow with your ignorant sojourn into political hackery.

    • Thanks: JL, Nancy
    • Replies: @Erebus
  449. anon[171] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    Because we’ve been explaining science and technology to laymen since the 1970s?

    Shove your science and your vaccine up your ass.

  450. John Wear says:
    @Awash

    I thought our exchange was reasonable too. I am not sure why I was called a Troll. Maybe That Would Be Telling did not know how to answer my question, so the Troll label was used as a means to avoid answering my question.

  451. skrik says:
    @Chinaman

    For the uninitiated, can you explain why PRRA cannot have evolved naturally and is bio-engineered?

    Not really [less explain, more opinion], but I can show you some of what I’ve found, starting with my #291 above and extending it with two more diagrams:
    1)2)The 1st shows the multalin comparison of the spikes of SARS-CoV-2 and the only other corona virus known to have a cleavage site in the ‘appropriate’ place [Murine hepatitis virus = AAD45229.1]. Note that to get that alignment, I had to add in QQQQ just before 691 where CoV-2 has PRRA and the MHV has SRRA.

    The 2nd shows the comparison of the spikes of SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13.

    Sooo, MHV looks to me as unlikely to have been manipulated to get its SRRA cleavage site but the ‘bolt out of the blue’ PRRA in CoV-2 looks highly suspicious. The reader may decide if that’s any sort of ‘proof.’ rgds

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  452. Emslander says:
    @Swede

    What about the unborn children who died so that their living cells could be used in the research on these vaccines?

  453. The CDC: Covid-19 Survival Rate chart in the ‘Recap’ of this Corey Lynn report (below) says pretty much all one might need to know when deciding whether or not to accept any Covid-19 vaccination.

    Covid-19 Survival Rate
    99.997 % age 0-19
    99.98 % age 20-49
    99.50 % age 50-69
    94.6 % age 70+

    “And yet, despite all of this manipulation (presented in the report itself), the fact of the matter is, the survival rate would only go up from what is already incredibly high.”
    Corey Lynn

    “COVID-19 Pt. 2: CDC’s New “PIC” and The Hidden Data”

    https://www.coreysdigs.com/health-science/covid-19-pt-2-cdcs-new-pic-and-the-hidden-data/#comments

  454. Anonymous[166] • Disclaimer says:

    Is this the same Whitney who bragged about Sweden’s great “common sense” strategy to fight Covid19? Sweden has failed miserably and now advocates…duh, the successful Chinese protocol for fighting the virus. Silly backward Thailand also followed the Chinese protocol of masks, sanitizing, distancing and partial lock down. So silly…
    We lost 60 Thais out of 70 million (Sweden’s common sense, Mr Whitney, lost 6000 out of only 10 million, pls explain).
    Thailand has beaten Covid. No local cases for 3 mths, all new cases in quarantined returnees Shops, markets, malls, stadiums open. Restaurants full, people everywhere (though masked). What did we do wrong, Mr Whitney, no “common sense’? RSVP…

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  455. @Anonymous

    “Thailand has beaten Covid.”

    No country that knelt before the myth of Covid-19, beat Covid-19. All are punished.

  456. anarchyst says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    The Fauci paper DOES state that the deaths were from bacterial pneumonia, NOT the “flu”. PERIOD.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  457. Skeptikal says:
    @utu

    And if you were a doctor you would not have taken a stupid, uninformed position that you have since tried to defend with this dust storm.

    I am not going to waste another comment on this.

    • Replies: @utu
  458. Skeptikal says:
    @geokat62

    I am aware of only two “corona” deaths among people I know.

    In both cases it certainly looks to me as though it was not the illness but the corona-created circumstances—what I call the corona curtain (cf. iron curtain) which has descended over our lives—that led to death.

    1. Friend, ca. 76, who suffers from dementia has been in an excellent care home in Germany for those suffering from dementia for about two years. Despite her dementia, she remains a very intelligent woman who understands her situation and sheds tear of gratitude when visitors come, telephone, or send letters. Since the corona curtain dropped, no visits from loyal friends were possible. My friend becomes more depressed. Then, three weeks ago, she gets a corona diagnosis. Her symptoms are light—fever and weakness. She is now completely isolated, aside from the attention of the staff. One day after lunch she goes to sleep and doesn’t wake up. Unless an autopsy is done it is impossible to say what the physiological cause of death was. I’d say that she gave up, emotionally, and her brain decided it was time to go. The final weeks of her life she had zero quality of life.

    2. Elderly lady was admitted to hospital for different issues. She was repeatedly tested for the virus but had to wait each time for results, which were negative. Nevertheless because of the general corona curtain, actual treatment was delayed, daughters could not visit her in the hospital, with no advocates by her side in the hospital, her hearing aid battery was fiddled with repeatedly and her hearing aid was lost twice. Nurses now say she is “unresponsive” because of course she cannot hear them. By the time daughters talk to a friend who works in the hospital who pulls a few strings so that they can visit and try t0 make arrangements to get their mother back home, it is too late. Mother is on the way out. Has the hosp. already given morphine? Fortunately the daughters are at least able to be at her side when she dies in the hospital.

    Both of these deaths are, IMO, partially and to an extent that is hard to measure, attributable to the corona curtain. Yes, both of these women were older, but at the same time I see these as “bad deaths.” With a raised trauma level for the relatives and friends.

    Still, from the statistical p.o.v., these were both elderly people.

  459. Skeptikal says:
    @That Would Be Telling

    The “it’s a meme” response is typical of the smart-ass tone of this troll (hey, another “meme”).

    I reckon his “just want to be informed so as to advise my elderly friends on which vaccine to take” is a crafted persona.

  460. utu says:
    @geokat62

    You’re speculating…. – You should know by know I do not make things up. Here you have 30 European countries data vs. population density. Correlation is R=0.52 which means that 25% of variance can be attributed to the pop. density.

    By normalizing by pop. density we remove 25% of variance. Here are 30 European countries sorted from the lowest to highest by the death/1M/Pop.Density. Note that Sweden is the greates outlier. Sweden is almost 4SD above the median. Note also that Spain is very low. This is because the effective pop. density of Spain is high because Spain has many empty spaces. See the link on the graph on how the effective pop. denisty was determined. BTW, if we used the arithmetic pop. density Sweden would be even greater outlier.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  461. utu says:
    @geokat62

    I thought you are more media savvy to know how to read between the lines. The objective of the article in the NY Magazine you have linked to was to make New Yorkers feel better about them being handicapped by city living during the epidemic because of high population density and to motivate them to act accordingly to minimize the handicap of the high population density. That the pop. density is an important factor is obvious and beyond discussion. Its role is particularly great in the early stage of an epidemic before people begin. to modify their behaviors.

    To minimize the death rate lockdowns are necessary.

    Ridiculous. If one one small segment of society (those over 65 with multiple co-morbidities) is truly vulnerable to the virus, we should do our utmost to protect them, without destroying the lives of those who are not threatened by it.

    The fastest way to arrest the epidemic and reduce the number of infections is by a lockdown. This is beyond discussion. Once the number of active infections is low one can proceed with tracking and isolating to keep R0 below 1 w/o a lockdown. This has been done successfully in Finland, Taiwan and NZ. In many other countries they did very successful lockdowns like in Czechia and Poland but they failed on the effective tracking and isolating afterwards so they got hit with the 2nd wave really hard. Japan avoided a strict lockdown because they were very good at tracking and isolating from the the day one when the infection rate was low and thus manageable. Universal masking also played a big role in Japan, Taiwan and other Asian countries.

    How to protect the vulnerable population at the minimum cost to society is another question. Sweden failed to protect its vulnerable people. Finland and Norway succeeded. More recently Sweden is learning from its neighbors and is trying to emulate them. However this will not bring back the lives of over 6000 people they had let die.

  462. utu says:
    @Skeptikal

    I am not going to waste. – Sure. I know you must be very busy in the la la land you live.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  463. Nancy says:
    @utu

    Surgisphere was, by all accounts, a puppet of the ‘anti-effective-treatment’ elements… and didn’t hesitate to blatantly lie in their reports. I believe the EUA granted to ‘warp speed’ vaccines depended on their being NO current effective treatments for Covid. (This may explain the instantaneous, 24/7, and fraudulent campaign against the EARLY use of HCQ.)

    I hope you can point out some reports / references on SPR website that are false. Name calling usually indicates a lack of real evidence.

    • Replies: @utu
  464. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Response to utu’s two previous comments.

    I’m reminded of the old saying: “torture the numbers long enough and they will confess.”

    Look, there are multiple studies that have found no correlation between population density and covid death rate. You pulled up a graph that uses data for 30 of 44 European countries with an r=0.52.

    Let’s step away from the minutiae for a moment and consider the big picture, shall we?

    As I’ve repeatedly stated, this isn’t the Black Death (estimated to have killed 30% to 60% of Europe’s population) …. it’s not even the Spanish flu (estimated to have killed about a third of the world’s population at the time). This thing has killed around 1.5 million people* out of a total world population of 7.8 billion. That’s ~.02% of the world population, ffs. Get a grip!

    * most of those estimated 1.5 million deaths are based on the results of PCR tests. But, as the recent ruling by the Portuguese Court of Appeals indicates (see link below), the results of PCR tests could have a false positive rating as high as 97%, if the cycle threshold is set above 35.

    https://www.portugalresident.com/judges-in-portugal-highlight-more-than-debatable-reliability-of-covid-tests/

    • Replies: @utu
  465. utu says:
    @geokat62

    “As I’ve repeatedly stated…” – I am just wondering why. What Black Death or Spanish Flu has to do with what is happening in 2020? Deal with the data we have. And we have more data than we ever had on Black Death or Spanish Flu. The data we have show that:

    Sweden failed to protect its vulnerable people. Finland and Norway succeeded. More recently Sweden is learning from its neighbors and is trying to emulate them. However this will not bring back the lives of over 6000 people they had let die.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  466. utu says:
    @Nancy

    “I hope you can point out some reports / references on SPR website that are false. “ – You can safely assume that all are false.

    • Replies: @Nancy
  467. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Sweden failed…

    In the fullness of time, the Swedish approach will be vindicated. With .02% covid deaths globally, lockdowns are a massive overreaction and completely unjustified.

    Here are just 4 reasons why:

    1. Children under 14 have a better chance of being killed by lightning!

    2. Those under 60 are more likely to die from a road traffic accident than from this disease!

    3. A 6,000 sample-size Danish mask study found that masks are not effective at protecting the wearer!

    4. The false positives of PCR tests with cycle thresholds above 35 could be as high as 97%!

    What more proof do you need?

    Get a grip, people!

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @utu
  468. Nancy says:
    @utu

    Thank you… you’ve confirmed that you can find none that are false 🙂

  469. I don’t care what kind of dumbass assertions are made here by marxist trolls….Covid is NOT dangerous unless you’re 80 years old and dying anyway.

    The death rate is .2%

    The whole thing is BULLSHIT……economic warfare against our people being waged by organized Jewry and their shabbos goy puppet freaks.

    I know three people who’ve had covid for SURE, and it was not a big deal.

    In fact, if not for the lying Jew media, nobody would have even known about this mild and insignificant virus. The total number of deaths this year is the same as years before…..but heart attack deaths and cancer deaths and auto accident deaths and ALL OTHER FORMS OF DEATH HAVE DISAPPEARED! Covid is literally the only thing that people die from now!

    It’s fucking MAGIC!

    • Agree: TheTrumanShow, Vojkan, Sulu
  470. utu says:
    @geokat62

    You are so confused. You can’t make even one good argument. Like and old demented lady where necessarily something must be there about children, because we love children, and some crazy stuff from the conspiracy end like that the tests do not work or whatever. Let me help you to make a coherent argument for you.

    This is basically what you libertarian simpletons would want to articulate: In a long enough time there is no difference. We will all die or we will all get infected with covid. Whether we live in a country that went through a lockdown or a country that did not go through a lockdown. While Norway and Finland have 10 times better outcome than Sweden now next year or in two or three years eventually everybody will get infected in Sweden, Finland and Norway and thus there will be no difference.

    There are several buts to that argument. If the vaccine arrives now and turns out to be effective Sweden’s scenario with time t–>infinity for everybody is no longer valid. If everybody is vaccinated tomorrow in Sweden, Finland and Norway the epidemic is over yet Sweden still has over 6,000 dead bodies which did not have to be. If Sweden could restrain its genocidal tendencies and wait and emulate Finland 6000 people would be still alive. BTW, I am sponsoring a petition to deny the vaccine to Sweden until the time countries that tried to reduce mortality get it first.

    The second but is for the case w/o a vaccine. It is possible to eliminate virus by getting infection rate in each country to zero. In fact NZ and Taiwan accomplished it. The only infections they get are from abroad. What is abroad for them? All the countries that did much worse than them which didn’t try to eliminate the virus or tried and failed. And who is the worst among those countries? Sweden! Sweden is fucking it up for everybody. Sweden was the defector. If all countries decided to eliminate virus and Sweden was the only defector the rest of the world had a casus belli against Sweden for at least putting it behind the cordon sanitaire if not nuking it.
    _______________

    Like most libertarians you do not get mask. Scott Alexander addressed this issue:

    The Prisoner’s Dilemma, as played by two very dumb libertarians who keep ending up on defect-defect. There’s a much better outcome available if they could figure out the coordination, but coordination is hard. From a god’s-eye-view, we can agree that cooperate-cooperate is a better outcome than defect-defect, but neither prisoner within the system can make it happen. – Scott Alexander

    Here is my comment addressing the Danish study:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/a-commenter-on-his-vaccine-trial/#comment-4310138
    The Danish study has no application whatsoever to the function of masks in reducing R0. One could wonder whether it was Big Pharma that sponsored it as it is Big Pharma that has the vested interest in people believing in mask ineffectiveness. Big Pharma wants too tell you to buy drugs and vaccines and does not welcome solutions like universal masking that can stop epidemics.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/chinese-gdp-in-2050-the-debate/#comment-4295040
    There is a fundamental problem in the study. If you test masks as a protection among unmasked population all studies will show there is no significant difference. This is because masks reduce the probability of infection but not to zero. It just takes more time to get infected. Perhaps 50 contacts instead of 10. So in long enough period of time masks in the Danish experiment regimen do not make much difference.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  471. Chinaman says:
    @utu

    You should know by know I do not make things up

    Sorry to intrude but you always make things up…when it comes to China.

    *BREAKING NEWS*

    https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1785/6012472

    * 2% of Californians already had COVID by Dec 13th.* What this study have omitted ( perhaps intentionally) is that, with a doubling time of 3.69 in California, that translates to the first cases in Northern California around *8th October*. Fits MY working timeline of how this thing spread from Spain and Italy to the rest of the world.

    These were done by Americans CDC scientists so I want to see you contradict them. 7000 random blood samples. Try to false positive that.

    Mr Unz should probably revise his timeline now with the mounting empirical evidence…

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Ron Unz
  472. Chinaman says:
    @skrik

    This is indeed beyond me, does the PRRA sequence makes COVID a lot more virulent?

    In any case, I agree that the Chinese responded as if it is a bioattack from America. It is always the prudent thing to do in times of tension.

    • Replies: @skrik
  473. utu says:
    @Chinaman

    “…you always make things up…when it comes to China. ” – Prove it.

  474. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Let me help you to make a coherent argument for you.
    This is basically what you libertarian simpletons would want to articulate: In a long enough time there is no difference.

    Yes, yes, of course. I need all the help I can get, lol! First off, I’m not a libertarian. Secondly, I don’t need to rely on the “long-run” argument to build a case against lockdowns. I just have to refer to “discounted quality-adjusted life expectancy.”

    Sweden still has over 6,000 dead bodies which did not have to be. If Sweden could restrain its genocidal tendencies and wait and emulate Finland 6000 people would be still alive.

    According to one study, seniors who get Covid-19 lose only 87 days of discounted quality-adjusted life expectancy.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/10/06/what-is-your-risk-of-dying-from-covid-19/?sh=51b8900e6159

    Renowned epidemiologist, John Ioannides, put it this way:

    In terms of numbers of lives lost, so far the COVID-19 impact is about 1% of the 1918 influenza. In terms of quality-adjusted person-years lost, the impact of COVID-19 is about 0.1% of 1918 influenza, since the 1918 influenza killed mostly young healthy people (average age 28), while the average age of death with COVID-19 is 80 years, with several comorbidities.

    https://usa.greekreporter.com/2020/06/27/up-to-300-million-people-may-be-infected-by-covid-19-stanford-guru-john-ioannidis-says/

    If all countries decided to eliminate virus and Sweden was the only defector the rest of the world had a casus belli against Sweden for at least putting it behind the cordon sanitaire if not nuking it.

    Nuking it? You’re one sick puppy, utu!

    Like most libertarians you do not get mask. Scott Alexander addressed this issue:
    The Prisoner’s Dilemma

    Not sure what The Prisoner’s Dilemma has to do with the effectiveness of masks against the coronavirus?

    This is because masks reduce the probability of infection but not to zero. It just takes more time to get infected. Perhaps 50 contacts instead of 10.

    That doesn’t make sense. Since the study was the same length of time for the treatment and control group, they presumably had the same number of contacts. But the study participants (treatment and control) ended up having virtually the same number of infections.

    • Replies: @utu
  475. geokat62 says:

    A person who is open minded is someone who can change his position when the facts around him have changed. How many are willing to shift gears like this reporter?

    Are you capable of shifting gears, utu?

    Excerpts from, FUREY: I used to be a COVID alarmist — then the facts changed my mind:

    The truth about COVID-19 in Canada right now is that this is an extremely serious illness for elderly people who are grappling with multiple underlying health conditions and live in congregate care settings.

    As of last count, 70.8% of COVID-19 deaths in Canada have been persons over the age of 80, with the 70-79 bracket accounting for another 18.5%. Those under 40 years of age account for 0.3% of deaths.

    Overlay that with the co-morbidity data and an even more nuanced picture materializes. While the national data is limited, the Alberta data reveals that 77.1% of people who died of COVID-19 did so while grappling with 3 or more underlying conditions. The percentage of people who have died with zero underlying conditions is 2%, and that tally includes people in their 90s.

    A Statistics Canada report adds that not a single Canadian under the age of 45 died of COVID-19 during the first wave without contending with “at least one other disease or condition.”

    These are the facts. You can make of them what you wish — you can even say my reporting is “downplaying” the severity of the virus, as the prime minister has done — but that doesn’t change reality. And this reality tells us that the worst fears we held during the first wave have since been proven to not be accurate

    I’m not going to apologize for being an early COVID-19 alarmist. My excuse is that I formed my opinions out of an abundance of caution based on the minimal information we had at the time.

    Now that we have much more information, I’ve shifted my perspective to align with those infectious disease experts and ICU doctors who are calling for a more balanced approach that reduces some of the societal harms caused by lockdowns and focuses on protecting the most vulnerable.

    I’d encourage other early alarmists who haven’t yet shifted gears to consider doing the same.

    https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-i-used-to-be-a-covid-alarmist-then-the-facts-changed-my-mind/wcm/d68471fd-b1a6-4f66-9266-859f46541d24/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

  476. Ron Unz says:
    @Chinaman

    * 2% of Californians already had COVID by Dec 13th.*