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In the late 1950s and early 1960s there was an American TV series called “The Naked City”, set in NYC. The opening for each episode began with the intoned words, “There are eight million stories in the Naked City. This is one of them.” Well, there are probably 8 million American spy stories that have taken place in China during the past few decades. Here are two of them.

Introduction

Several years ago it was reported that the Pentagon was building an international spy network that might become even larger than that of the CIA, planning to have at least 1,600 “collectors of information” spread around the world. In addition to military attaches and others who do not work undercover, more clandestine operatives would be trained by the CIA and deployed overseas to undertake tasks the CIA was unwilling to pursue. It was duly confirmed that China was among the Pentagon’s top intelligence priorities, reflecting the American affinity for espionage and covert action, evidence of which we no longer need. Americans are frequently conscripted by the CIA or the US military into espionage service in China, operating with the assistance of the US State Department.

Foreign individuals in China, ostensibly acting independently, are regularly apprehended by Chinese authorities for carrying out illegal surveys and mapping, marking the location of key military and other facilities. Almost 40 illegal surveying and mapping cases were detected in China in the past several years alone, mostly surrounding some of China’s military bases and installations, and in sensitive border areas such as Xinjiang and Tibet, the data almost certainly used in planning the foreign-sponsored unrest that occurred in those provinces.

In one recent case, an American citizen was found using two professional surveying and mapping GPS receivers on which he had recorded more than 90,000 coordinates, 50,000 of those near military installations. He travelled to XinJiang on a pretext of registering a travel agency to offer outdoor tours to foreigners in Urumqi, and clearly was there on assignment from the US government when he was caught. This is the reason Google’s mapping service was killed in China. Google was busy collecting high-resolution intelligence for the CIA, again images of sensitive military areas.

It is widely-known in China that literally thousands of the staff of the US Embassy in Beijing and its various Consulates are engaged in activities which are clearly espionage. This was the reason the Chinese government selected the closure of the US Consulate in Chengdu. Chinese authorities had repeatedly objected to the US Embassy and the US Government that the staff in Chengdu were engaged in activities “not commensurate with their diplomatic designations”. That’s Chinese understatement.

The American media are fond of accusing the Chinese of “seeing a conspiracy around every corner”, but these events are sufficient in number to justify China’s concern, these same media neglecting to note that anyone collecting hundreds of thousands of GPS coordinates near American military bases, would have a very short future.

Coca-Cola

The Coca-Cola Company has always been involved in espionage for the US military and the State Department.[1]https://cocacolaunited.com/blog/2012/11/12/supportin...-1941/ Oddly, neither the Coca-Cola company website nor Google have any knowledge of this, and the State Department had no one available to discuss this with me. Since at least the 1940s, when the company established bottling plants in a new country, OSS or CIA spies were automatically sent in as part of the staff. It wasn’t even much of a secret: when the US Senate held their famous Iran-Contra hearings in 1987, the link between the CIA and Coca-Cola was fully exposed.

And it isn’t only Coca-Cola, but let’s look at this company first. In March of 2013, Laurie Burkitt of the WSJ wrote a pleasantly uninformed article[2]https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873238267...767460 about Coca-Cola having been charged with espionage in Western China, her curious but typically American media spin being that this highlighted “the perils of doing business in China”. Let’s look at the facts.

On 21 separate occasions, 21 different Coca-Cola trucks were apprehended while conducting what the Western media called ‘surveying’ or ‘mapping’ of some of China’s more politically-sensitive areas that included borders and military bases. The first question coming to mind is why drivers of Coca-Cola delivery trucks would be conducting “mapping operations” or “surveying” anywhere in the world, much less in Yunnan and other politically-sensitive areas of China, and especially of border areas and those surrounding military bases. Even more to the point, why would Coca-Cola drivers doing this ‘mapping’ be as much as 600 kilometers off their normal delivery routes?

Coca-Cola said the GPS units its employees used were “digital map and customer logistic systems commercially available in China”, a claim that was an outright lie. It is true that many truck fleets around the world install GPS devices in their vehicles to help track locations and improve their logistics efficiency, but these GPS units are permanently mounted and are generally ‘dumb’ units able to do no more than record and transmit their location to a central source, and indeed that is their only use. But in the case of the Coca-Cola trucks, the GPS devices were not mounted but were hand-held units of military grade and were so sophisticated in their programming that Chinese military officials at first had considerable difficulty in precisely determining all their functions. Many of those units contained nearly 90,000 coordinates of military bases and other sensitive areas. In her article, Burkitt ignored all of this with the foolish claim that the GPS units were “only being used to improve fuel efficiency and customer service”, her claim immediately picked up by the US media to paint Coca-Cola as the victim and portray China as sensitive to the point of paranoia.[3]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-accuses-coca-cola...pment/

An official government statement was as follows:

“What we can say for now is that many subsidiaries of Coca-Cola are involved and this happens in many provinces. Due to the sheer scale of the case, the complexity of the technology involved and the implication to our national security, we are working with the Ministry of State Security on this.”

If the Ministry of State Security is involved, you can be sure this is a damned serious matter, and it was due to the use of what were called “devices with ultra high sensitivity” and GPS units containing “mapping technology with military-level algorithms” that got them involved.[4]http://www.3snews.net/startup/246000023519.html The reason of course is that such geographical data is primarily used by cruise missiles directed against sensitive military facilities. These data must be obtained on the ground because, while observation satellites can provide very high resolution, their photos have no frame of reference and cannot provide sufficiently accurate location targeting data – no matter what the New York Times tells you. At the time, Han Qixiang, director of the administration’s law enforcement department, claimed that Coca-Cola was doing more than just improving its supply chain, and was using mapping technology so sophisticated that the administration had difficulty adequately analysing the company’s system. And, while it wasn’t widely reported at the time, these same “Coca-Cola drivers” were simultaneously conducting aerial photography of military bases with drones.

No further information was released, but it was clear from government statements that this Coca-Cola espionage event was much more serious than portrayed in the Western media. And, with due apologies to Laurie Burkitt, none of this was about “the perils of doing business in China”.

Another item may provide some insight into Coca-Cola’s involvement. One is that the Chinese media published stories at around the same time that appeared unconnected but that were almost certainly part of this same process. The stories involved Coca-Cola employees who had been arrested for accepting bribes. One such individual surnamed Zhu who worked in Coca-Cola’s Shenmei marketing department had apparently accepted more than 10 million RMB, about US\$1.5 million, with several others having been accused and detained for the same offense.[5]https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/business/global/1...e.html[6]http://www.china.org.cn/china/news/2009-09/17/conte...20.htm It is true that employees of Coca-Cola and other American firms in China often demand bribes, but these are usually small-scale extortion attempts from company suppliers where the individual has authority to grant business contracts, and the police are generally uninterested in these matters unless the company itself requests a police investigation. But these payments were two orders of magnitude above the commercial extortion level, leaving the more logical conclusion that these additional Coca-Cola employees had received their payments from the same source as the truck drivers performing the GPS ‘mapping’, in other words, from some agency of the US government, with the money dispensed in cash through the Coca-Cola company from the US Embassy, but were caught before they could execute their espionage duties.

This is a good place to note that in a typical year (at least until recently) the American consulates in China were receiving about 800,000 visa applications per year from Chinese citizens, mostly for studying or tourism. The US Embassy and consulates charged a fee of 1,000 RMB for each application, with a stipulation that the fee be paid only in cash. To save you the math, that’s about 800 million RMB per year, or about US\$130 million that by-passed the banking system and was available for black ops. A more recent but undated website page claims application fees can be paid by Visa or Master Card, American Express, Discover and Diners Club, of course every Chinese citizen carrying these American credit cards to the same extent that every American carries Bank of China credit cards.

The Interesting Case of Xue Feng

In 2010, a Chinese Court charged Chinese-American geologist Xue Feng with attempting to obtain and traffic in state secrets and sentenced him to eight years in prison with a 200,000 RMB fine, for his attempts at purchasing data on the Chinese oil industry. Naturally, the US government reacted with “dismay and puzzlement” at the prison sentence imposed and, just as naturally, the American media presented a distorted description of the surrounding events while withholding most of the crucial information. Let’s look at the facts.

From various sources, Feng had collected documents and proprietary data on the geological conditions of China’s on-shore oil wells, as well as a database providing the GPS co-ordinates of more than 30,000 oil and gas wells belonging to CNOOC and PetroChina. The information was then sold (or about to be sold) to US-based IHS Energy for US\$350,000.

The primary issue is that without oil, a country has no military capability. Without a consistent supply of oil, ships cannot sail, aircraft cannot fly, tanks cannot move, and troops cannot be transported. The US, being one of only two nations in the world always looking for yet another war, is the only country that amasses data on the petroleum supply capability of all other nations. It does so because, in the event of an armed conflict, it wants to know the enemy’s military fuel capacity. This includes not only tanker supply routes but the production capability of all producing wells, the duration of maximum production and, perhaps most importantly, the precise GPS coordinates for launching missiles to destroy this capability. This is why information on China’s oil wells is of great interest to the US military, and of course why the information is considered by the Chinese government to be sensitive and confidential. It could be crucial to China’s survival.

Let’s look at Feng’s supposed employer, the mysterious IHS Energy, identified in the US media as an “information-services company” providing data on worldwide petroleum production to customers around the world. Not quite true. IHS is a secretive company primarily engaged full-time in espionage for the US military, and in fact IHS was born in the US military although neither Google nor Bing seem aware of this. This company was originally created to serve the US aerospace weapons manufacturing industry and to coordinate purchases from weapons contractors. The company publishes many books and military trade magazines that are used by Western governments as a prime source of military intelligence and information on defense and warfare. One company owned by IHS is Jane’s Information Group[7]https://janes.ihs.com/[8]https://www.janes.com/defence-equipment-intelligence/, perhaps the prime source of global aerospace and defense industry information and intelligence to all Western government agencies. IHS also owns a company named Cambridge Energy Research Associates[9]https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/376925Z:US, which is a military intelligence-gathering firm that advises the US and other Western governments on military strategy and what we might call ‘geopolitics’, related to the energy availability of foreign militaries, certainly including China.

More to the point is that one of IHS’s most critical assets is a massive database that contains all the production and technical information on the vast majority of oil and gas wells in the entire world[10]https://ihsmarkit.com/products/international-well-da...a.html, an asset collected exclusively for use by the US military, the CIA and the State Department. This information is a critical part of American war-planning since a prime objective in an armed conflict would be to neutralise or destroy an opponent’s energy supplies. And, since the US has for years been planning war scenarios involving China, this is why IHS was so interested in obtaining all that information.

From this, you can understand why IHS had Feng collecting information on such an enormous and detailed scale. For its war planning, the US military needs to know the precise production capacity of all China’s oil wells and whether their yields are increasing or declining, in order to estimate the ability of China’s military to function during a conflict if the US navy cuts off imported supplies of tanker petroleum to China through the South China Sea. IHS was tasked with obtaining this information, including the precise GPS coordinates of all producing wells of any consequence so the US military could target and destroy them with cruise missiles. And that’s why the information was worth \$350,000 to IHS; they would have re-worked and resold it for millions to various departments of the US military and other government agencies.

Feng was not an employee of IHS. He was a freelancer who had been hired and trained by the CIA in espionage and data collection in China, then turned over to IHS under contract to collect the necessary information. The WSJ made a coy statement that Feng “had switched jobs shortly before he was detained for his work for IHS.” This was the reason.[11]https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487045948...164714 Feng was not doing ‘research’ in any sense in which we use that word, nor was he collecting information that was already in the public domain as the Western media tried to portray him. Instead, he was engaged in an important program of espionage for the US military in an area crucial to China’s defense, and should have been executed for his actions. I cannot understand why he was not.

The information Feng attempted to collect was neither commercially available nor in ‘the public domain’ as the Western media suggested. Other media reports stated this information is publicly available in the US, a claim that may be true, but irrelevant. The US is not in danger of military attack and nobody is collecting GPS coordinates on American oil wells so as to direct cruise missiles in their direction. In any case, I could hardly escape arrest or imprisonment in the US by claiming that my ‘market research’ on their military assets was legal in some other country and therefore the US had no right to detain me, though Feng attempted this defense in the Chinese courts.

In one of its articles on this issue, the WSJ made this observation: “Mr. Xue was born in China, a reminder that ethnic Chinese may be more vulnerable to pitfalls of the country’s legal system than other foreigners. Like IHS, many multinationals have come to rely on people like Xue to run their China operations.” IHS had no “China operations” nor any presence in China, but the above comment is true in the sense that in such circumstances the Chinese authorities have tended to be more lenient with foreigners than with ethnic Chinese whom they deem traitors to their homeland.

The US invests considerable effort to locate and indoctrinate Chinese-born Americans who can be sufficiently “turned” to betray their own country. Feng was undoubtedly one of these, his attraction to the CIA based on the assumption that, being ethnic Chinese, he would attract less attention than other foreigners and might better understand how to fit into the cultural environment without drawing attention to himself.

The US government took a very strong interest in Feng’s case, and mounted a prolonged diplomatic campaign to have him released on “humanitarian” grounds. Former US ambassador Jon Huntsman visited Feng in prison, and even President Obama met with China’s President to beg for Feng’s release, while many other US government officials raised the issue privately. Just so you know, when the US government exhibits such keen interest in the fate of one such individual, it is only because those same officials were actively involved in placing the person in that situation, and feel some responsibility to save their “asset”. It was interesting that this case must have involved more than merely oil well production and location data because anyone from the US government was barred from the hearing[12]https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/01/world/asia/01beij...g.html, which would indicate there were additional and serious classified matters involved.

For your reading entertainment, here are some of the Western distortions:

The UK Independent carried a headline screaming, “US geologist jailed for eight years in China for oil research”[13]https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/us-geo...2.html, in a case that “highlights the government’s use of vague secrets laws to restrict business information”. The Wall Street Journal told us that “Mr. Xue’s case is the latest to highlight stark questions about the legality in China of conducting market research”, claiming “Mr. Xue’s case stems purely from his attempt to purchase commercially available data on the oil industry”. Notice the choice of words. Feng was imprisoned for conducting ‘market research’, in which capacity he attempted to purchase ‘commercially available data’, leaving an impression that was quite different from the facts. The UK Guardian[14]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/05/us-geo...prison and the Telegraph[15]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/chin...s.html chimed in as well, and Fox News told us that “Chinese officials have wide authority to classify information as state secrets.” Unlike the Americans.[16]https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-court-sentence...n-jail The US government played its part in the media circus, claiming Feng simply “received” information that “should be in the public domain”, and “was just doing his job”.

More amusingly, the WSJ claimed that China’s court announcing its verdict during an American holiday weekend, “appeared to be a calculated act of defiance” against the US[17]https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487047384...454976, meaning that China should conduct its internal affairs with one eye on a calendar of US holidays to ensure Americans are properly informed. A Jewish-American law professor in New York, Jerome A. Cohen, who purports to be “an authority on China’s legal system”, claimed that this was a case of China’s “thumbing its nose at the US government” – apparently an unforgivable act of defiance against the Imperial Master. And the act of sending Feng to conduct espionage in China would be the US government’s ‘thumbing their nose’ at whom?

Notes

[1] https://cocacolaunited.com/blog/2012/11/12/supporting-u-s-military-and-veterans-since-1941/

[2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323826704578357131413767460

[3] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-accuses-coca-cola-of-misusing-gps-equipment/

[4] http://www.3snews.net/startup/246000023519.html

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/business/global/14coke.html

[6] http://www.china.org.cn/china/news/2009-09/17/content_18543520.htm

[7] https://janes.ihs.com/

[8] https://www.janes.com/defence-equipment-intelligence/

[9] https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/376925Z:US

[10] https://ihsmarkit.com/products/international-well-data.html

[11] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704594804575649722313164714

[12] https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/01/world/asia/01beijing.html

[13] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/us-geologist-jailed-for-eight-years-in-china-for-oil-research-2019192.html

[14] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/05/us-geologist-china-prison

[15] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7871740/American-geologist-Xue-Feng-jailed-in-China-for-eight-years.html

[16] https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-court-sentences-us-geologist-abused-by-state-security-agents-to-8-years-in-jail

[17] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704738404575347901204454976

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Media, American Military, China, CIA 
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  1. Anonymous[982] • Disclaimer says:

    China should prepare for full-spectrum wars. Jewish-led White Genocide and other fuckups are destroying Western competitiveness so they’ll have to cheat more and more in their quest for the (((NWO))). Many fronts on that spectrum are already lively.

    • Agree: Daemon, Ghan-buri-Ghan, Moi
    • Replies: @Moi
    , @sally
  2. Eagle Eye says:

    The US is not in danger of military attack and nobody is collecting GPS coordinates on American oil wells so as to direct cruise missiles in their direction.

    Fascinating. Not a single adversary or frenemy of the U.S. has ever collected coordinates of oil installations in the U.S.? What, then, do all the smart folks on the staff of the Russian, Chinese etc. air forces do all day?

  3. This Coke’s for you, Winnie the Poo.

  4. With satellites that supposedly can read the license plate numbers on vehicles, why would there be a need to put people on the ground with less sophisticated gear?

    The US knows where everything is by just looking at satellite imagery.

    The premise of the article ignores reality.

  5. @Eagle Eye

    What, then, do all the smart folks on the staff of the Russian, Chinese etc. air forces do all day?

    They wine and dine know-it-all Yankees willing to sell anything at the ‘right price’.
    Or they phone up a teenager in Connecticut, one of those with easy access to the US “state secrets” they think they hide on Microsoft machines.
    Or they just ask their paid-for congress(wo)men to copy all their emails bcc to a server in Huandong.
    Or they cut out the middlemen and tap straight into the local Mossad server.
    Or maybe they use the time to practice their warrior skills, so they don’t end up killing millions of women and children “by accident” the way the cacastocracy in Jerushingtondon teach their soldiers.

    • Agree: Moi
  6. @RoatanBill

    With satellites that supposedly can read the license plate numbers on vehicles, why would there be a need to put people on the ground with less sophisticated gear?

    Suppose you tell us why “Coca-cola drivers” were 600 miles off their usual delivery routes with ultra-sophisticated GPS devices?
    And while you are at it, you might explain why

    these same “Coca-Cola drivers” were simultaneously conducting aerial photography of military bases with drones.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    , @Johnny Rico
  7. @foolisholdman

    Why ask me?

    All I know is that the US gov’t and other gov’ts with access to satellite data don’t need to be sending people anywhere. If they want to target some installation, plus or minus a few meters doesn’t mean much and with their tools, they can get within centimeters.

    That some entrepreneur without access to satellite data has to be physically present to gather data to then sell it to some corp that wants it, is easy to understand.

    Long story short, gov’ts with sophisticated intel via satellite don’t need to send anyone anywhere.

  8. The spy satellites photos do in fact have a frame of referrence. Since many countries including China and the U.S. do have spy satellites, it would appear that any peole spying with GPS equipment and topographical imaging technology would be checking the reliability of the satellite images. There cyber warrriors are probably hacking imagery, or are paranoid that others are. If a school kid can produce an altered video on Youtube, the technology exists to do this with satellite images as well, obviously. It’s not just one way! In other words, any technology that allows transmits reception could potentially allow alteration of that reception. These are signals that travel between points and one point can alter the other point by cyber-terrorists if they have the technology to do it. I guess that that must be why the five eyes coordinate, in order to verify accuracy of this technology, which relies on trust, and the technology exists because of a lack of trust. Spying and technology are revolving around circular logic. It is insanity on steroids. How do you prove something and how do you know what you know? You could spend the rest of your life trying to figure it out and not arrive at a solution to both simultaeneously, and cannot therefore justify spying for logical reasons.

  9. d dan says:
    @RoatanBill

    “All I know is that the US gov’t and other gov’ts with access to satellite data don’t need to be sending people anywhere…. Long story short, gov’ts with sophisticated intel via satellite don’t need to send anyone anywhere.”

    Heard of camouflage for satellite? China and Russia (and US) know exactly which and when each satellite flies over where in their territory. Even some of the less sophisticated groups (e.g. ISIS) know how to camouflage for satellite.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  10. @d dan

    You can’t camouflage a military installation, reservoirs, train tracks, airports, highways, dams, factories and many other military targets.

    Camouflaging vehicles, makeshift bunkers and smaller things is understandable, but that’s not what ICBM’s and other types of projectiles are targeting. If the US just wanted to know if there’s a building under some tree, all they have to do is send someone to that general area and have them look around and report back. No real need for high tech GPS gear.

    The US’s ICBM’s stick out like a sore thumb in the Dakota’s. I suspect they understand that trying to hide them isn’t realistic. Probably the same for foreign silos. If the Chinese or Russians want to put an ICBM under a house, there’s no way some guy in a delivery vehicle is going to figure that out because those folks aren’t that stupid.

    I too would like to know why a delivery man is hundreds of miles off course, but I doubt seriously it’s because he’s a spy for the US Fed Gov or spook agencies. That just doesn’t make sense to me. If it makes sense to someone else, I’d like to hear their reasoning.

    • Replies: @d dan
  11. d dan says:
    @RoatanBill

    “You can’t camouflage…”

    Do you think US might be interested in this? Do you think this can be camouflaged?

    “… but that’s not what ICBM’s and other types of projectiles are targeting.”

    Do you think US might be interested in non-ICBM targeted objects? Do you think US might be interested in non-military installations (e.g. Uighur “concentration camp)? Do you think US might be interested in non-static info or details over a time periods (e.g. traffic patterns, personnel routines, …) Do you think US might be interested in non-image info (e.g. noises, smells …) Do you know the relative costs of re-targeting satellite vs in-person spying? … (other questions, truncated for brevity)

    “That just doesn’t make sense to me. ”

    It is hard to wake up someone pretending to be asleep.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  12. @d dan

    Aside from your snide remark, you have not made your case.

    Are you going to tell me that a satellite can’t see those missile launchers? They’re mobile for a reason – so that targeting them is difficult. Certainly no US spy is going to be chasing them once they start moving, so the only way the US has of getting intel on them is with a satellite.

    Noises, smells – give me a break.

    Why not cut out the Judge Napolitano shtick and actually say something?

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  13. I am shocked to learn that the U.S. is spying on the poor, innocent Chinese, who are the Dindu Nuffins of the Communist world.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    , @Moi
  14. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
    @RoatanBill

    With satellites that supposedly can read the license plate numbers on vehicles,

    No…..

    • Agree: Realist
  15. Lin says:
    @RoatanBill

    According to optical resolution theory, resolution means the ability to differentiate 2 bright dots apart. A good 10 cm telescope has resolution of 1.2 arc second,ie, at a distance of 3600(360/2 x 3.14159) or 172000 metre, it can tell 2 bright dots 1 meter apart. To read car plate number, I think you would need resolution of 2cm or 0.02 m.
    1)A 200″ or (10 cm x 50) or 5 m space mirror might read car plates at distance of 172 km above
    1)Ground hot air upswelling and dust add to the problem.
    2)Pattern recognition might help to identify the number geometry.
    3)Quantum optics could greatly help
    ……………
    It’s speculation or myth, probably until recent advent of quantum optics:

    With satellites that supposedly can read the license plate numbers on vehicles, why would there be a need to put people on the ground with less sophisticated gear?

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @RoatanBill
  16. Icy Blast says:

    I can’t believe there are human beings out there who think the U.S. government doesn’t have spies in China. These are the same people, I would guess, who say the national (government) debt doesn’t matter, the dollar is sound, and the U.S. has a massive technological advantage over its adversaries!

    One prominent You Tuber, who lived in China for about ten years and who operates aerial drones as a hobby, recently inadvertantly unmasked himself by revealing that he attended the Rochester Institute of Technology! As they say, you can’t make this stuff up.

  17. I don’t get all the pro China “love” here on U.R.
    Yeah the U.S. spies on other countries. So do those other countries spy on the U.S. If the CIA, or any other clandestine U.S. government operations were eliminated today, guess what? China and other countries are going to continue to spy on the U.S. and everyone else. I suppose the U.S. government, invented spying like they invented the slave trade. No one else has ever done it before.
    China is the last communist super power, we spent decades fighting the cold war, as well as a few hot wars to stop the spread of communism, so now lets just let China run wild? No, don’t think so.
    Don’t think the former Soviet block countries or Russia think communism is a great idea anymore. in fact, it’s been nothing but an abject failure everywhere it’s been tried. Unless of course you like living in poverty, and under the jack boot of a totalitarian government.
    Yeah, the U.S.A isn’t what it used to be either, it’s well on its way to becoming a totalitarian socialist, communist, capitalist hybrid cluster fuck. That said, this U.S.A bad, China / Russia good trope, is well played out. The U.S. government hasn’t killed millions of it’s own citizens… Yet.
    We already have a Saker at U.R. Do we really need another?
    The Coca Cola story is interesting.
    Naked City was a great show. Still watch the reruns.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Z-man
    , @Donald A Thomson
  18. Lin says:
    @Lin

    Sorry for the typo, should be:
    A good 10 cm telescope has resolution of 1.2 arc second,ie, at a distance of 3600(360/1.2 x 2 x 3.14159) or 172000 metre, it can tell 2 bright dots 1 meter apart.

  19. AnonCN says:

    Speak of the hegemony in media and propaganda, US dominance is unchallenged. Respect the power, no matter how evil how ugly it is, that’s why Chinese understated such malicious behavior, while an execution of Feng would be a ‘thumbing the nose’ at US government so it didn’t happen.

    Chinese have to respect the power of the empire until the day we can’t put up with it anymore and have to and able to fight against it. We see it coming very day. Inevitable, our growth is the pain in the ass for the existence of the empire, the empire becomes the pain in the ass for our growth and existence.

    Let’s bet.
    Will it be another cold war only? How long will it last? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
    Will it develop into some hot war? When? Where? Will it end with a world war?
    Just for fun:
    yesterday I heard some self-claimed time traveler from 2060 back to 2019 reported that:
    US-China cold war lasted 30 years from 2018~2048, finally everyone is involved.
    World War III started in ME from 2048, ended in 2050 with 2.7 of 8 billion world population lost, two blocs again: US + EU + Israel VS China + ME + Russia + India (Why???)
    From 2050, human being embrace new era, material life is not valued any more, people have to turn to spirit world for help.

  20. Tom Welsh says:

    Clever! Thus the Americans harm their designated “adversaries” in two different ways at once.

    1. Systematic spying;

    2. Poisoning with water saturated with more sugar than anyone would believe physically possible; or, instead of sugar, with insidious chemical sweeteners that may play just as much havoc with metabolism.

  21. Tom Welsh says:
    @Eagle Eye

    ” What, then, do all the smart folks on the staff of the Russian, Chinese etc. air forces do all day?”

    Prepare to defend their countries against Western aggression, I should think.

    That’s what they are paid for.

    • Agree: Realist
  22. Pokémon Go seems to do a decent job of geomapping.
    Pop a Farfetch’d in Area 52 and there be many a pixel transferred off shore.

  23. Tom Welsh says:
    @RoatanBill

    “That some entrepreneur without access to satellite data has to be physically present to gather data to then sell it to some corp that wants it, is easy to understand”.

    Fascinating. Can you explain why any “entrepreneur” who is not planning an attack would want to know precisely where military equipment is located in a foreign country?

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  24. Yeah the US is spying on China and losing. So what. They’ve manage to steal most of its technology through our patriotic corporations like Apple offshoring their production to China. When they aren’t sending “students” to steal intellectual property directly. Then you have the Chinese hacking the Office of Personnel Management, run by an Obama Diversity Dumbass Director with an assist from the Department of Homeland Dumbassery… and stealing every motherfking personnel record of the federal work force.
    So I am to feel bad for China in a war they are winning? Here’s some news for you Larry, The US is not on an upswing in terms of being a super power anymore. Sure we can still muck up a bit but the US is failing in almost every way. Socially, Politically, Economically. Name it. Look around the place. Pretty soon we won’t even be useful to Israel anymore.

    • Agree: VinnyVette
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  25. GMC says:

    The US Embassies mentioned in the article should be a real wake up call to nations that want one. Last time I looked , the Green Zone in Iraq had 16,000 USG workers and nationalists, while the Armenian one had 6000 workers. Maybe a typo error on the Armenian one, but even 600 would be CIA CIA CIA . It’s Good vs Evil today – Period. Thanks Unz and Larry R.

  26. GMC says:
    @RoatanBill

    It may well be called psychological games, that the US and Israel loves to play, on other countries. The West loves to put everything in your face – as in – look at Pompeo- he is always a pompous ass who likes to strut his power over the rest of the world. Money is no object in the NWO – the more they recruit , the bigger they get.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  27. GPS units started out as one-way (receiving only) devices (please contradict me, this is empirical knowledge, and dating from the mid nineties). Now when integrated in the mesh of cell-phone networks (not necessarily but attending the amount of energy expenditure), and the user device coupled to the OS of a smart-phone this becomes a two-way communication device. Much as a browser uses your processor and hard drive, to push to exterior servers. Two-way and specifically geared to mine the victim (espionage if you like).

    Spying, “they all do it”, much like the heeded warning of Kaczinsky and his Anti-Tech dissertation, that “self-propping” (self-propagating) by any organization or entity is obligatory and add to it that this includes spying. A phenomenon of nature, and always attending not only the specific own, but also the immediate interests. Could be that (immediacy to survive the now) is exactly pointing to the limits of any systemic complexity. As a far jump, look at the analysis of, as a reducible (timespan and location, clear start and end) situation as the Beirut event of early August 2020. Complexity and Opportunism in the short term at work, even and utmost in the analysis. Quickly the layered onion comparison becomes present.

    China and the US, Huawei, Coca-Cola, there should not be much difference in intentions, …maybe limited to a moment in time, there might be some difference in efficiency and opportunity in strategic allocation.

  28. Of course, it is no secret the US leads the world in spying. Along with producing horrible music and terrible movies and TV-series, as well as brewing lousy coffee, this might still be the only area where the US is still in the lead. Surely one must find compensation for a general lack of inventiveness, imagination and ingenuity.

    Of course US companies serve as an extension of the government, as befits a state where full-blown fascism has been installed.

    And thanks, Mr. Romanoff, for another illuminating article.

    • Replies: @Emily
  29. Emily says:

    The US, being one of only two nations in the world always looking for yet another war, is the only country that amasses data on the petroleum supply capability of all other nations

    Doesn’t say much for how they use it, then
    Since 1945 the USA has only won two conflicts.
    Grenada and Panama.
    At the moment they cannot even defeat the Talban after – what – 18 years of trying.
    They couldn’t even win against the paddy field patriots when, we now know, Vietnam was fighting for its sovereignty and independence.
    And if I may – off topic – we are really watching the true face of the US public.
    They raised countless millions for the family of a hard core criminal who died of a drug overdose.
    Gave him a solid gold coffin
    Look at this.
    5 year old child cruelly murdered by a gunshot to the head, execution style, by a black American also a criminal
    In a whole day less than 2,800 Americans out of 350,000,000 have contributed to his fund – now just over 100,000
    White children’s lives don’t matter it seems.
    Confirmation if you need it.
    https://www.gofundme.com/f/justice-for-cannon?utm_source=customer&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link_more

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @dimples
    , @Hans Vogel
  30. Vojkan says:
    @RoatanBill

    The first thing that comes to my mind. Satellite imagery doesn’t tell the difference between decoy and the real thing. People on the ground do.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  31. @Tom Welsh

    Why ask me?

    If people are using hand held gear running all over the place, then there must be a reason. Money is a reason. Maybe they work for an entity that doesn’t have access to a satellite. I have no idea what the actual reason is. I just take the article’s premise as fact that people are running around. I also know that satellites can see anything on earth about as large as a truck if its plainly visible. If it’s not plainly visible, then how would a person with more primitive gear find it? If something is valuable and needs to be hidden, then it will be hidden well.

    Military targets are usually large and stationary; easy to spot from a satellite.

    Sending a person to get the GPS coordinates of a mobile vehicle serves no purpose unless the information is obtained to provide targeting data for an already launched inbound weapon to destroy that target. Two minutes after locating a mobile device, it’s somewhere else potentially and the old GPS coordinates are useless.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  32. Emily says:
    @Hans Vogel

    Agree.
    The classic definition of fascism is the merging of the corporate and political.
    The USA is a now a classic fascist state.
    Freedom of speech gone and social attack, denial of work etc for those who dare to oppose the neo liberal NWO agenda.
    Pretty it ain’t
    Democracy is a total sham.
    How can you describe the choice of Trump or Biden.
    Democracy, my foot.
    Its an insult.

    • Agree: Biff, Realist
    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
    , @VinnyVette
  33. @GMC

    Your take is the best so far, but still sounds ridiculous when viewed from the oppositions perspective, especially the Chinese, given their average IQ.

    The Chinese have their own satellites and because they aren’t stupid and manufacture plenty of optics they must know something about it. They know what a satellite can see and they also know that getting GPS coordinates for mobile devices is only valuable if that device is to be destroyed within seconds to a minute of when the coordinates are obtained. After that it drives away. Surely, a mobile missile launcher is large enough to be seen from space.

    The military mind would certainly object to anyone knowing where their truck mounted devices are, even though the information becomes worthless after it drives away. It’s just how their primitive brains work.

    You can’t reasonably hide the 3 gorges dam. You can’t hide a power plant or a reservoir or a hospital, etc from a satellite.

    I can understand sending a person to investigate something if there’s suspicion that there’s some heavily camouflaged device or installation that looks benign via satellite. However, if some high value thing is camouflaged, then it would be done so well that you’d walk right by it without realizing what it was. e.g. an underground command center where the entrance is a mile away inside a grocery store or train station. I’m reminded of the commercial laundry in the Breaking Bad series covering up a drug lab.

    • Thanks: GMC
  34. @Vojkan

    True enough IF the decoy is shoddily constructed. During WW-II, there were cardboard tanks used to fool enemy pilots into thinking there really was a huge conglomeration of hardware below.

    The Chinese aren’t stupid. They’re the manufacturer to the world. Don’t you think they have the resources and smarts to do a bang up job of creating a decoy? I doubt the Chin Chan Chun balloon factory is turning out inflatable mobile missile launchers or missile silos.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  35. theMann says:

    Oh no, governments spy on each other! And spying on the Chinese, the most benevolent, decent, not at all Racialist people on the planet, and a country that never routinely attacks it neighbors, well that is the worst thing of all. All of those thousands and thousands of Chinese “students” in the USA are every one of them doing legitimate Academic research, and not spying on the USA at all.

    And to top it off, the US Government uses US Corporations abroad to do its dirty work – well I am just shocked to find that out! The Chinese, of course, would never do that.

    Seriously, what is the point of this article? China is just as dangerous a threat to the peace of the World as ZOG Washington, DC., and even more Racially Supremacist. countries are going to spy on each other. Get over it.

    • Agree: VinnyVette, Hibernian
    • Replies: @d dan
    , @denk
    , @showmethereal
  36. Realist says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Fascinating. Not a single adversary or frenemy of the U.S. has ever collected coordinates of oil installations in the U.S.?

    If someone is going to attack the US…why the hell would they target oil wells??? In 2014 there were 1.1 million oil and gas wells in the US any attack on the US mainland would be immediately met with a nuclear response…and not on oil wells. Why not attack cattle ranches or corn fields. The suggestion of our enemies attacking oil well is so stupid as to be farcical…if only those who hate us were so stupid.

    • Agree: Emily
  37. Biff says:
    @VinnyVette

    I don’t get all the pro China “love” here on U.R.

    Because people recognize it’s a superior country with a superior government that serves its constituents in a more reasonable and beneficial manner.

    Conversely, Empire is a rip-off.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Troll: VinnyVette
  38. The author is again giving us interesting info about the US spying on China. But the author (f. ex. in his last article about Huawei) seems to believe that China is “not spying on everyone” which IMO is not quite true. First of all China has been sending immigrants to all the countries on Earth for a long time. These immigrants (colonizers) have a very strong interest in trade and in money and so they open (very many) restaurants and then shops until after some generations they tend to control the local economy (does this sound a little familiar?). F. ex. if you look up the history of Vietnam and of the “Vietnamese boatpeople” you will find that most of the “boatpeople” were in fact ethnic Chinese (I know this out of personal experience) and that Vietnam wanted to avoid (another) colonization. As to spying itself who believes that the Chinese embassies often aren’t massive spying organizations?

    I may be wrong but I have the impression that the author’s “soft spot” for China comes from the fact that the Chinese people can be very friendly and helpful – but I have noted in my personal dealings with them that the Chinese government strongly hides its “unfriendly” actions and that the Chinese people are very muched used to obeying their government. But if you want a real example of the CCP’s attitude towards other ethnies you need only to look at their dealings with Tibet which IMO are a crime against humanity – and you may then notice that there are pro-Tibet organizations in very many countries of the world – even in Singapore (which is peopled by independent Chinese).

    Just my personal opinions
    Mark

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
    , @denk
  39. Z-man says:
    @VinnyVette

    Agreed.
    I was just looking at a post by a ‘nonny something or other’ and then it was gone. I believe it was critical of the author.
    It’s obvious that the writer is anti American. He should move to China.
    Oh I could be a lot less PC but I’m very mellow today and… never mind. (Grin)

    • Agree: VinnyVette
  40. MaxyBoy says:
    @RoatanBill

    That’s so long as you believe that a ‘space industry’ actually exists and that the earth is actually a spinning ball. Many do not.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  41. @Gleimhart Mantooso

    “I am shocked…..”

    Me too.

    If the U.S weren’t “war planning,[for which] the US military needs to know the precise production capacity of all China’s oil wells and whether their yields are increasing or declining, in order to estimate the ability of China’s military to function during a conflict if the US navy cuts off imported supplies of tanker petroleum to China through the South China Sea”, then they would be remiss in their duty.

    • Replies: @denk
  42. dimples says:
    @Emily

    “At the moment they cannot even defeat the Talban after – what – 18 years of trying.”

    Good Lord woman, are you that dumb? Are there still people left who think the Pentagon wants to win wars, and not just spend a lot of money pretending to care about that?

    • Replies: @Emily
  43. @Lin

    I never believed the license plate boast simply because the plates are mounted vertically on vehicles and seeing them would require the viewing device near ground level. I also said ‘supposedly’ to indicate my skepticism.

  44. @MaxyBoy

    Most believe in all sorts of nonsense like gods and the necessity of a criminal organization generally referred to as gov’t.

    However, satellites exist and are visible from the ground with hobby grade optics. The flat earth people are either delusional or just preening before an audience.

    To contend that the earth is different than all the other plainly visible celestial objects isn’t credible and those objects are all round and we can’t be seeing them all at the perfect perpendicular to a flat surface.

    • Replies: @Polemos
    , @taylorseries
  45. Vojkan says:
    @RoatanBill

    Which sort of confirms my point that you need trained personnel on the ground to tell the difference. Speaking of Chinese craftsmanship, sometimes it is indeed hard to tell for stuff made in China if it was intended to be used or just as decoy given the speed at which it falls apart when you actually try to use it.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  46. @Emily

    Wasn’t it Mark Twain who remarked that, if your vote would count, you wouldn’t have the right to vote?

    According to Rousseau, the bigger a country (size and population), the fewer the freedoms for its individual inhabitants.

    Democracy is a sham, not only in the US, but all over the “Western” world. With the possible exception of places like Iceland and Luxemburg.

    Belgium and Italy may be the best places to live, because the population there has a deep distrust of politicians. Hence, they are inclined to limit government influence on, and interference with their lives as uch as they can. Very healthy attitude.

    • Replies: @Emily
  47. It’s classical. Remember the difference between a spy and an intelligence officer? Their intelligence officer is a spy, our spy is an intelligence officer.

  48. @Emily

    Since 1945 the USA has only won two conflicts.
    Grenada and Panama.

    Agree. One might even argue that there are no grounds for regarding the US as a victor of the Second World War. It was actually the Soviet Union that defeated Nazi Germany. As for the Japanese, one could argue they were more afraid of an occupation by the Soviets than by the US, and that was why they agreed to surrender after those two “nuclear” bombs.

    However, there might be sound reasons for getting into unwinnable wars such as Vietnam and Afghanistan. The US was in Vietnam for over two decades. Coincidentally, at the same time the area was the world’s biggest producer of heroin, marketed by the CIA, with prices controlled by the DEA and its precursors.

    Since 2002 the US is in Afghanistan, which is now the world’s number one producer of heroin. Lucrative business indeed. The merchandise is handled and marketed by the CIA, with the DEA again controlling production.

    So, not winning wars may be deliberate strategy after all.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  49. @Vojkan

    No it does not confirm your point because no one can tell just the shell of something from the same thing filled with what makes it work.

    The Chinese make cheap crap because they have a market for cheap crap. They also make satellites, missiles, world class electronics, etc. Have you seen the various skylines of the major Chinese cities?

    Keep thinking of China as the source for only Walmart junk and you’ll be missing out on their advanced stuff. Your mentality is exactly what China wants the world to think while they design and manufacture goods the west can’t match.

  50. This is the dumbest article I have read in a while.

    IHS/CERA’s database is not information gathered exclusively for the military, CIA and State Department. It is used by the entire oil industry and any and all related industries and always has been. Daniel Yergin has been discussing the material for 20 years.

    I could tell you off the top of my head how much oil China produces, how much they import, and the state of their fields. About an hour on the internet will get you all the details.

    It’s not a secret.

    There’s no conspiracy. This is all horseshit.

  51. @foolisholdman

    There are two immediate, obvious, and easy explanations.

    One. Because none of that happened. Or happened in that way. The entire story is coming from intelligence agencies who are in the business of concealing information and spreading disinformation. The details and history of every major incident in the Cold War are different from what was reported at the time. Remember the “bomber gap”? Quickly followed by the “missile gap”? The U-2 overflights? The missiles removed from Turkey as part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis? I don’t even think the Turks knew the missiles were there in the first place. Don’t think they were told about removal. And I think I read recently that they were never actually removed. Nobody knows.

    Or Two. It was a decoy/distraction/deception operation to cover a second operation which was totally successful and the Chinese have no idea how badly their security has been penetrated. We also may never hear about it or at least not for another 20 years.

  52. @Hans Vogel

    “One might even argue that there are no grounds for regarding the US as a victor of the Second World War.”

    You are an idiot.

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
  53. … while observation satellites can provide very high resolution, their photos have no frame of reference and cannot provide sufficiently accurate location targeting data …

    Really? Says who, please?

    I know little about observation satellites but your assertion regarding the use of their photos seems implausible. This is why I ask.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  54. @RoatanBill

    @ d dan is a dirty yellow rat scum … do not waste your time with the Chinese trolls on the site … the website is infested with chinamen and America is down and out crowd!

  55. Emily says:
    @Hans Vogel

    Hans
    There are different forms of voting.
    Like the USA, Britain has the system of First Past the Post.
    Which is a fraud and farce.
    It is designed to protect and continue the two party system which has now been so utterly corrupted – including boundaries – that it has become a one party, two headed hydra, both run by the same people, big money, the corporations etc.
    However Proportional Representation has a better outlook.
    A couple of elections ago in Britain, a third party UKIP nearly bust through the two party stitch up here.
    But failed.
    To give you some idea of how FPTP corrupts and warps the electoral fairness look at these two figures from that election.
    UKIP took 4,000,000 votes overall and took one seat.
    The Tories took 11,000,000 votes and took 331 seats,
    Under PR, UKIP would have taken the proportion of its votes to the overall voting total as seats.
    Fair you would think.
    It would have taken 83 seats,
    Most democracies today are running a form of PR where ‘votes mean seats’.
    The USA and Britain stick out like particular sore thumbs as they continue the two party/one party scam and the media won’t touch the issue and keeps complicit silence.
    If you look at Germany you can see the difference PR makes.
    The AfD took the same proportion as UKIP above and got into the German Parliament and has gone from strength to strength.
    Under FPTP they would be history.

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
    , @V. K. Ovelund
  56. Moi says:
    @Anonymous

    Every time I think I have some understanding of the US, I find I’m wrong because this country has sunk to new depths.

  57. Moi says:
    @Gleimhart Mantooso

    And we know it was the Chinese who dropped those nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki…and more recently bombed and/or invaded Middle East countries.

  58. @Eagle Eye

    The notion that the US hasn’t been targeted or its installations mapped is absurd. Of course they are! Only the intellectually incurious and daft morons out there would believe otherwise. The fact that Uncle Scam gets away with his adventures is no less a fact that the US allows Chinese spies to get away with theirs. They work together folks! It’s all a great big charade and you and I are not welcome to the script party!

  59. @Johnny Rico

    Johnny, it is no shame to be ignorant, but one should at least try to remain civil.

  60. @Emily

    You are right, but in in Germany, parties that fail to get past the threshold of five percent of the aggregate popular vote, do not make it into the Bundestag. This has traditionally (until reunification) given the FDP, smallest of the three traditional parties (the others being CDU/CSU and SPD) the swing vote and a power beyond its electoral significance.

    I am afraid there is no way to devise a satisfactory system.

    The best thing might be (as Italian historian Antonio Annino has suggested), to regard voting as a festive, symbolic act, in which the citizens confirm their status as members of a collectivity.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  61. @Moi

    Did we or did we not save the dirty yellow rats from being raped by the Japs? And this how they repay us by spying on the good ole America … it’s time to finish off China!

    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Moi
  62. @Emily

    Like the USA, Britain has the system of First Past the Post. Which is a fraud and farce.

    All voting systems are bad. First Past the Post is simplest.

    First Past the Post gives me my own representative, a representative that is responsible to me and my neighbors.

    In practice, admittedly, First Past the Post gives me a representative who has never heard of me and has no idea what I think or want, but the other systems are no better. Most are worse.

    One can appreciate English frustration regarding UKIP’s result in the specific election to which you refer, but in the United States I nevertheless prefer First Past the Post.

    • Replies: @Emily
  63. @Emily

    Right! And all those things about the U.S.A aren’t worse in China? Lmfao

  64. d dan says:
    @theMann

    “Oh no, governments spy on each other! ”

    Spying on another country is fine – it is the purposes and intents that differentiate the actions of nations. If US government spies on China to better defend US interests, protects her people and rights, then that is good and morally justified. However, if the purpose is to destabilize China or hurt her people (neither of which is congruent to defending US interests/people – because although China is a business competitor like Germany/Japan, China is NOT at war with US and is not an enemy), then people should rightfully question the efforts and motives.

    For examples, it is known by the Chinese government that US is very actively collecting info and intelligence on the so-called Uighurs “concentration camp”. The purpose of the efforts is obvious – and that has nothing to do with protecting US citizens/interests. Neither is it done for any “sympathy” of the Uighurs “plights”. It is apparent that it is part of the long term efforts for some sort of “colored” revolutions.

    Another less well-known recent example was around Wuhan. US and Taiwanese spies were reported to be collecting info about funeral and large-scale burning – including report of sulfur smell in the air (in case RoatanBill is still clueless). The purpose again was malign – so as to prove that there was large scale deaths in Wuhan due to Covid-19, and that Chinese government was lying. Please tell how does this benefit US citizens, or help US to fight Covid-19, or any other ways?

    “All of those thousands and thousands of Chinese “students” in the USA are every one of them doing legitimate Academic research, and not spying on the USA at all.”

    Besides the purposes and intents of the spying, the other important parameter is the “means” of collecting. Legal means of info exchanges and learning should not be conflated with illegal spying contravening the host country’s laws. In fact, the former may actually be of values to the host country or international peace, by promoting mutual understanding and tolerance.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  65. @RoatanBill

    Sending a person to get the GPS coordinates of a mobile vehicle serves no purpose unless the information is obtained to provide targeting data for an already launched inbound weapon to destroy that target. Two minutes after locating a mobile device, it’s somewhere else potentially and the old GPS coordinates are useless.

    Somewhat like trying to sell meta-data by an internet site´s owners to third parties. At a lower level, (the search engine, the server the site´s pages sit on, the gateway, push back of browsers of user hard-drive data and then their sorting) these meta-data are intercepted and sold to the bidding parties including the site´s owner. Interactive exchanges of GPS positioning is part of any smart phone. An e-collar for humans in the wait for “vaccination”, “chipping”, these being tested methods on pets. No affinities with Stephan Molineux, but he and others must know by now that there is quite a similarity to building property on quick-sand.

  66. @V. K. Ovelund

    Can it be that the mention is about pointing the satelite and triggering it on the right location(zooming in, and other) to on the ground attributed locations? Much like analog binoculars and more so telescopes. Not that easy to find what is not known because of the limited area of viewing.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  67. Moi says:
    @Really No Shit

    Our moment of glory (er, I mean gory).

  68. Emily says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    So you are happy.
    But have you no sense of fairness?.
    That parties should be represented fairly – votes should mean seats.
    You clearly support one of two main parties – no thought of your neighbours who vote too, but for a third party – and have no hope of ever getting representation.
    I hope that you live in a ‘safe seat’.
    That that safe seat is one who has a representative that you vote for – and consequently you have a representative in the House.
    But if its a safe seat and its not a seat held by the party you support – presumably you are content and happy going into the polling booth time and time again – to vote for a party – which in your seat would have no chance of winning and you are actually wasting your time.
    Hardly democracy is it?
    In fact the only votes that count in your constituency are the votes for the winning candidate – all the rest are effectively binned – meaningless – not counting and all those people never represented.
    Hardly democracy is it?
    With PR every vote counts.
    Everyone gets represented in parliament.
    Not as in FPTP where maybe half or more of all votes are worthless and all those people not represented.
    You surprise me.
    I would have hoped you would have more of a fair consideration for others and see the justice that all people should have a say in their goverment.
    It takes all sorts I suppose……..

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  69. sally says:
    @Anonymous

    There is a giant difference between USA governed America and the USA that governs domestic Americans. The USA has contracted most of itself out to private commercial and industrial, foreign and domestic feudal enterprises. These enterprises collectively use the puppets in government, and their privately owned Federal Reserve Banks and their privately owned mass media to dictate to Americans. A few Americans may have begun to understand the threat likely to destroy American lifestyle is much closer than far away China.

    • Agree: Emily
  70. @Emily

    You surprise me.

    I would have hoped you would have more of a fair consideration for others and see the justice that all people should have a say in their government.

    No, this is a fair point. I believe it to be outweighed by other considerations, but it is a fair point.

    So you are happy.

    Well, civilization is collapsing and my people are being replaced, so I am not sure that “happy” is quite the adjective I would choose.

    [MORE]

    But have you no sense of fairness?

    I suppose that I do not really expect fairness in such matters.

    That parties should be represented fairly – votes should mean seats.

    You and I live in different countries and mine has a constitution that, in significant respects, resembles yours of 300 years ago more than yours today. Thus, it is not for me to say today what is fair in your country and what is not.

    However, I value having a representative that is practically, individually responsible to his local constituents.

    I cannot have both.

    You clearly support one of two main parties.

    The U.S. system is federal and does not, according to the British concept of the past 200 years, ask its administrations to respond in Parliament. Magisterial prerogative (having been coöpted by democracy during the Republic’s early years) has never withered here as it has in your country. Congress and the state legislatures are here still confined to legislation and supply; they lack an executive remit and they lack collective responsibility, a fact which leaves party leaders without power to discipline members by sacking them from ministries. We have no three-line whips here. Therefore, I suspect that you and I may be talking about two different things.

    I believe that if I were British I would have voted for Farage’s fellows at every opportunity, and probably for Nick Griffin’s before that (although, since I am not British, my opinion in such a matter lacks weight).

    It seems to me that you are caught on the horns of a dilemma, then. You can either have proportion or representation, but not both. My country’s constitution does not really present me with that dilemma—or at any rate not to such a degree.

  71. This article begs the question: Why does China allow Coca Cola to do business in China?

    • Agree: Hibernian
  72. @VinnyVette

    The article was a reasonable debunking of the US hysteria about China. It seems hard for many Yanks to see their country as hysterically aggressive. How many wars of aggression does it take? [email protected]

  73. Smith says:

    Perhaps it is high time we ban coke?

  74. denk says:
    @theMann

    China is just as dangerous a threat to the peace of the World as ZOG Washington , DC., and even more Racially Supremacist. *

    Idiot,
    You’ve been hogging that top honor since time immemorial

    https://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008

  75. denk says:
    @Eagle Eye

    What, then, do all the smart folks on the staff of the Russian, Chinese etc. air forces do all day?

    Working on their next gen carrier killers I suppose ?
    The barbarians are getting too brazen these days.

  76. denk says:
    @ThreeCranes

    during a conflict if the US navy cuts off imported supplies of tanker petroleum to China through the South China Sea”, then they would be remiss in their duty.

    Uncle Charley

    I would say that if China did not engage in a military buildup after watching the United States go bomb and missile crazy during the past 70 years and rehearsing blockade of Malacca Straits since 2005, it would be derelict in its duty

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2001-04-22-0104210037-story.html

    P.S.
    somebody should do a autopsy on Uncle Charley

    RIP

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  77. Ram says:

    Isn’t it strange that with such smart satellite technology, the military forces need human “spotters” on the ground to direct the smart bombers and ground attack aircraft ?

    The US may have “won” ONLY two wars since the end of WW2, but it has destroyed the infrastructure of multiple other countries, murdered in excess of 20 million innocents and tortured it’s way through large swathes of land without any hint of sorrow.

  78. J Lee says:
    @RoatanBill

    Reading a license plate from space is a laymans frame of reference for the power of satellite optics but the best maps are still made by good old fashioned theodolite on the ground. For one your top down view lacks a lot of information that would be available to the boots on the ground. Lacking a full ground survey, the next best thing is to calibrate your high altitude photography with a few gps references.

    China has never published a true accurate map of its territory nor has it ever permitted foreign survey crews to come and make one. The maps it produces for public use are purposefully stretched and skewed by secret algorithms so that the true position of streets may be offset by hundreds of meters, the distances between cities off by kilometers. If you tried to use Google maps a few years ago or any other purely western map it would put a street in the middle of a river. Google has good enough satellite photos to spot your dog in your yard, still not good enough to make their own working map of China. For now to provide map services in China they have to work with one of the Chinese companies who have the de-obfuscation algorithm but they don’t even get to peek at it.
    This should give you some appreciation of the complexity of accurate mapping and how a determined adversary can make themselves hard to map out, even with the best eyes in the sky.

    • Thanks: Polemos
    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    , @Polemos
  79. @J Lee

    One of my clients is a civil engineering firm. They use lasers to get contour maps. Lidar has been used to locate structures below jungle canopy very successfully from airplanes. One toy drone with a stabilization system can deploy a laser to map miles of territory and do so with little chance of detection and if detected and brought down, there’s no way to connect it to a person if proper measures were employed.

    I don’t doubt that people still use theodolites (I own one) for small scale projects, but technology has moved on to relegate that tool to a poor second at best.

    A smartphone can map a street by simply driving down it, including getting reasonably accurate altimeter readings. Even if GPS is purposely skewed, getting landmarks periodically by other means can then improve the accuracy of the GPS numbers.

    I wonder why would a gov’t with unlimited access to the funny money they create use anything but the best means to get the best data and that’s not by putting people at risk when they don’t have to.

    • Replies: @J Lee
  80. @denk

    “if” denk, “if”.

    Looking ahead, planning for possible eventualities; all sane people do it. But it appears criminal to you, meaning, I guess, that you’re insane.

    • Replies: @denk
  81. denk says:
    @ThreeCranes

    You are an even bigger idiot than I thought,

    Sane people dont go to the other side of the globe to pick fights, playing war games at someone’s doorstep, practicing how to choke off their lifeline.
    Is kneeling at people’s jugular your fav sports ?

  82. Polemos says:
    @RoatanBill

    This is an interesting point.

    I don’t do remote sensing with satellites, so I don’t know, but can a person use a satellite image alone to judge depth or height? From satellite images I’ve seen, things look largely flat or at a skewed angle. In order to hit a target, won’t the z-axis matter?

    (I don’t know if anyone’s suggested this. I don’t even know if this is relevant. But I do appreciate your critical pushback to help get ideas going.)

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  83. Polemos says:
    @J Lee

    If you tried to use Google maps a few years ago or any other purely western map it would put a street in the middle of a river.

    Thanks for bringing this up. I was actually wondering less than two weeks back why the roads and designations for a city in China I was looking at in Google were so far off, because I can see how the one layer was supposed to fit the other. You’ve piqued my curiosity, and I thank you for that!

    Do you have any pdfs or source material, sites, about this?

    • Replies: @J Lee
  84. @Polemos

    You can’t reasonably get the 3rd dimension from an image. Stereoscopically comparing images can get you an estimate.

    Satellites aren’t just taking images. There are satellites that supposedly measure the ocean surface with millimetre accuracy. That’s how the climate scientist frauds get their data to then apply their bogus models to scare the low IQ crowd. Ocean, land, once you have the technique you apply it to whatever you want.

    Your smartphone can give you elevation by installing an app that measures the time it takes for the signal to reach you knowing what the transmission speed is. There are a number of ways to get that Z value.

    Also, modern weaponry uses optics and sensors to fine tune where they’re supposed to hit. It’s not just a ballistics trajectory any longer. Lighting up a target also allows a weapon to home in on whatever is the focus of the beam. That’s how aircraft can light up a target and launch a relatively cheap missile to hit whatever the pilot wants.

    • Replies: @Polemos
  85. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    As to spying itself who believes that the Chinese embassies often aren’t massive spying organizations?*

    US diplomats
    = agent provocateurs.
    This is common knowledge,,,

    Exhibit A
    Marshall Green, nicknamed coup master,
    was the dark hand behind the Chile coup, the ouster of Gould Whitlam and ….the 1965 bloodbath in INdon, the greatest genocide of 20 C

    eXHIBIT B

    ditto
    fukus ‘ambassador’ to Russia is a certified regime change veteran/

    Michael McFaul, the New US Ambassador to Russia: Color Revolutions Expert
    https://colorrevolutionsandgeopolitics.blogspot.com/2011/10/michael-mcfaul-new-us-ambassador-to.html

    I could go on but the 26 alphabets would be used up in a jiffy.
    Suffice to say….
    Everybody knows that fukus embassies = CIA safe house,

    whats your basis for believing [sic] the same about China ???

    • Replies: @Question Mark
  86. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    you may then notice that there are pro-Tibet organizations in very many countries of the world

    There’r pro Tibet org in [[[five liars]]] and their assorted ‘allies’, [fixed]

    Which begs the question,

    how come there aint no outfit in the [[[five liars]]] , speaking up for the Chagosians, Okinawans, Jeju islanders, Iraq DU babies, US drones victims, …people who have no voice. ?

    Whatever happens to the whitey dictum…

    Charity starts at home ???

    • Agree: Biff, d dan, Vidi
    • Replies: @Question Mark
  87. @denk

    re: pro-Tibet organizations.

    There is a world-wide sympathy for Tibet for several reasons:
    — The invasion and annexation of Tibet was the largest landgrab of China so far (25+% of the previous surface of China). Afterwards China discreetly integrated large parts of the conquered lands into neighbouring Chinese provinces: the only region which still carries the name of Tibet is the TAR (Tibet autonomous region) which represents less than half of the real size of Tibet.
    — The Tibetans are an extraordinary people: not only are they able to live and prosper at altitudes of +4000m but in the 16th century they changed their warrior ways and decided to follow the buddhist way and try to better understand the human mind by meditation. And so they became an absolutely peaceful people dedicated to mind research.
    — The Tibetans’ only piece of luck was that their king was the Dalai Lama who received many sympathies in Western countries. The young Dalai Lama was persuaded by Chinese emissaries that Tibetans in China would be treated as part of the “large and happy family of minorities”: he believed that lie and told the Tibetans not to fight China. When he finally realized his mistake he barely succeeded to escape to India where he is still today and where he organizes “Tibetan Children’s villages” and other help for the Tibetans who manage to flee from Tibet (China’s PLA is shooting at the Tibetans who try to escape).
    — I have been to some of the “Tibetan Children’s villages” myself and I have met many Tibetans and
    I have listened to their life stories which always are stories of theft (of their houses, their businesses, their real estate etc), of violence (when Tibetans try to teach their own language and writing to their children they are sent to prison) and of broken promises. The “happy family of minorities” is is in fact a collection of non-Chinese peoples which China has invaded and taken over. And all of these “minorities” have nothing left – in conquered lands China takes everything (the land, the water, the minerals, the knowledge) and about half of the minorities have already died out in the last 2000 years – Tibetans are only the latest newcomers in this funeral procession.
    — I also joined a pro-Tibet association and I saw with my own eyes the yearly expenses in their books: for example rehabilitation of torture victims (often monks) is a significant yearly expense – and when Tibetans are trying to tell their contacts/friends what is really happening in their village or province they are sent to jail (which always includes torture).
    And when you join a pro-Tibet association (I was a member for a number of years) you quickly notice that the members are just honest private people (no government spooks) who freely contribute their time, efforts and resources to aid a very exceptional civilization which is being slowly but surely destroyed.

    As to “Charity starts at home”:
    It would be great if all the wronged minorities/peoples/civilizations found their defenders but life is merciless and history is written by the victors/perpetrators – so most people don’t even realize what is in fact happening.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Vidi
  88. @denk

    If you read my comment about pro-Tibet organizations you will notice that I have learned a great deal about real China motivations during my membership in such an organization.

    So let me answer your question by another question:
    I know by personal experience that the China narrative (publicized by Xinhua which means “true words” i.e. it represents the same idea as Ron Unz’s “Pravda” 🙂 ) is very different from the real Chinese motivations towards other peoples:
    — one piece of evidence for this would be the Chinese policy against Tibet
    (you may try to summarize the Chinese approach towards Tibet yourself)
    — another item would be my personal knowledge and experience that China considers lying as a “ruse”, and those who let themselves be deceived are themselves at fault because of their stupidity (see f.ex. the book “Strategems” by Harold von Senger for more details on this).
    — another item is the by now well-known fact that China has been for a long time massively stealing western I.P. be it by “students” or “scientists” or by technological means (I know that the 5 Eyes do the same by any means available but we are talking about China here). The only thing that is not clear to most people is that stealing is part of their civilization: for most of their history they had no “patents” (because these would have been stolen) and if they wanted to keep something for themselves they would declare it as “secret knowledge” (like Tai Chi, like “Strategems” etc.)
    — another item is that China is using its economic power (bribes, bougt P.R. articles/advertisings in western media ) and its diplomatic power (Confucius institutes) to impose its narrative. This is again not much different from the 5 Eyes but IMO the overall Chinese mindset is in general the same as the 5 Eyes mindset (maybe you could partly summarize it as “take everything and give nothing”) and it has always been like that – IMO the West is only now beginning to realize that.

    So my question is the following:
    With all of these items in mind do you see any reasons to doubt that the Chinese embassies work in just the same way as the 5 Eyes embassies?

    • Replies: @denk
  89. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    Rubbish,

    Tibetans are in their own land, doing fine,. Chagosians were exiled to thousands of miles away from home, rotting in foreign slums,.

    The ‘universal sympathy’ of Tibet is orchestrated by [[[five liars]]] intel, to fix the spotlight on China,

    At the same time, publicity of [[[five liars]]] very own, very real crimes against humanities are ruthlessly suppressed.

    Standard 5L M.O,
    Dont look here, look over there, honey.

    Exhibit A
    Every new potus invited HMDL for lunch in WH,
    while Chago islanders are given the short shrift.

    When the rare activists take up the cudgel for the hapless islanders, they got roughened up and thrown into jail.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/12/humanrights.military

    Thats why so many whiteys would rather fly all the way to Beijing to unfurl pro Tibet banner, rather than stay home to speak truth to power.

    Charity , it doesnt pay to start at home any more.

  90. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    With all of these items in mind

    IM not interested in pov or hearsay.

    do you see any reasons to doubt that the Chinese embassies work in just the same way as the 5 Eyes embassies?

    I’ve given you two cases of fukus
    spy nests masqueraded as embassies.
    tip of an iceberg.

    Here’s exhibit C

    When the the Chinese diplomats left HOuston consulate, they did the normal thing like destroying confidential papers.

    When the fukus agents vacated Chengdu CIA safe house, they had FIVE containers of secret stuffs to remove.
    WTF’s inside those containers ?
    Eavesdropping eqpt anyone ?

    I want facts not your hallucination.

    • Replies: @Question Mark
  91. @denk

    I’ve given you a lot of factual info that I’ve verified over a number of years. If you chose to view that as “hallucinations” that’s your problem and not mine. Please don’t lose any more of my time.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @d dan
  92. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    China has been sending immigrants to all the countries on Earth for a long time
    These immigrants (colonizers) have a very strong interest in trade and in money

    YOu’r so full of it.

    Chinese immigrants werent sent out, they ran away from wars, faminies, plagues at home to start a new life.
    They eked out a living in foreign land often in hostile environment, several centuries of blood sweat and tears later, they made it , in many case dominating local economy, often invoking resentment….and there’r [[[those]]] outsiders who’r ever ready to exploit such dissatisfaction.

    genocides on ethnic Chinese …

    1965 Indon [[[CIA/MI6]]]

    1969 Malaysia

    1998 Indon [[[CIA. /MI6]]]

    1970’s Nam

    These immigrants (colonizers)

    Idiot,
    Colonisers dont get genocided , they do the genociding .

    UK => USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, hwaii, Puerto Rico, Iraq, Syria, Diego Garcia, BIkini island, Ph, Guam,

    YOu’r dripping with B.S.

    mr ‘Mark’, is that supposed to be
    a whitey ?

  93. denk says:
    @Question Mark

    idiot

    UNVERIFIABLE pov and hearsays AINT facts.

    Marshall Green and Mcfaul capers were well documented

    If you dont even understand this,
    dont waste my time.

  94. d dan says:
    @Question Mark

    “I’ve given you a lot of factual info that I’ve verified over a number of years. ”

    No, you are not. Your so-called “factual info” are actually blatant lies and half truth. Take for example, your statement:

    when Tibetans try to teach their own language and writing to their children they are sent to prison

    which of course, could be immediately verified to be totally non-sense if you would just to visit Tibet for once (and yes, there are millions of visitors to Tibet every year, including even CIA agents).

    Other example are:

    “all of these “minorities” have nothing left – in conquered lands China takes everything (the land, the water, the minerals, the knowledge) ”

    This, again can be easily verified if you would visit Tibet to see if they are left with “nothing” – whether they still own their houses, temples, land, etc.

    “… about half of the minorities have already died out in the last 2000 years ”

    This is a totally impossible thing to support when you stretch the timeline to 2000 years. Please prove this with real data, otherwise it is just unfounded and maligned insinuation you are spuriously throwing out. Also are you trying to imply that all those minorities “died out” because of genocide by some Chinese emperors or dynasties?

    I can go on to rebut many more that you said about Tibet. And none of my rebuttal are “ChiCom” or PRC sponsored propaganda, but verifiable facts that can be confirmed by independent investigators who bother to investigate.

    And then you go on with the usual politically correct western rants about Chinese stealing of IP, e.g.

    “another item is the by now well-known fact that China has been for a long time massively stealing western I.P. be it by “students” or “scientists” or by technological means”

    This of course ignored the facts that US and western countries have the strictest and longest history of technology embargoes against China through arrangements like COCOM, Wassenaar and many other policies. As for the Chinese students/scientists, most of them are doing study/research on topics that are in the open or in public domain. I won’t denied there are individual theft, but they are hardly “massive”, nor singularly happened to Chinese only.

    “The only thing that is not clear to most people is that stealing is part of their civilization…”

    This betrays your totally ignorance and bias. Chinese civilization has been the most innovative and inventive one, and for the longest time, in ancient time. If you are not aware of that, then you are not even qualified to be in this debate. Many ancient Chinese inventions were copied and stolen from China by others. So the stealing were done mostly in the opposite direction you are implying.

    “…for most of their history they had no “patents” (because these would have been stolen) …”

    Of course, that is because “patents” is a modern and western concepts. And today, Chinese are filing the most patents in the world – more than US and any countries. Furthermore, even within US and the western countries, many of the patents are filed or co-filed by Chinese inventors.

    So, your so called “a lot of factual info” can be easily proven to be wrong and untrue. And I have not even started talking about your half-truth and misinformation.

    • Agree: denk
    • Replies: @Question Mark
  95. @d dan

    re: Tibet

    You seem to “know” a lot of things that are part of the Chinese narrative but which are not true. There is a lot of difference between info that you read in reports that you cannot verify and real-life experiences in other countries and with other civilizations.

    I’ve personally had good relationships with a number of Chinese immigrants for more than 30 years – and I still have them today even though by now I understand that they are in fact colonizers. I have also filled an executive position in a pro-Tibet-organization for 5 years. In that position I received regular reports from the Tibetan Government-in-exile about Chinese behavior in their conquered land Tibet (I still receive some info today). I have traveled to India, and I have met many Tibetan refugees there. And I have listened to them. So I know what I have seen and lived – and if you want to get first-hand info about Tibet the best advice I can give you is to visit a pro-Tibet organization in any country that you chose. You will meet people there who have been to Tibet with open eyes (not to see the Potala Palace which has been repainted and reorganized along Disneyland lines or the very modern Chinese parts of Lhasa) and who know and care for the Tibetan people and for their civilization. And if you listen to them instead of showing them your reports they will tell you what is really happening in Tibet.

    Another advice would be to do some traveling and visit Asia and Africa – and you will find that the mindset of other cultures can be very different from what you had imagined.

    I my posts I have given an account of what I have seen, lived and experienced during a number of years and as we do not speak about the same things I see no point in continuing this totally theoretical discussion.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @showmethereal
  96. d dan says:
    @Question Mark

    “You seem to “know” a lot of things that are part of the Chinese narrative but which are not true…. you read in reports that you cannot verify and real-life experiences in other countries and with other civilizations”

    As I said before, what I said *CAN* be verified if you would to visit Tibet yourself (or have some trusted person doing for you). For example, you claim “when Tibetans try to teach their own language and writing to their children they are sent to prison”, this can be easily proven to be false with visits to their schools, talking to their children, parents, teachers, etc. You or your trusted agent can see whether Tibetan language is displayed in their street, libraries, museum, can’t you? You can verify whether they are in fact being sent to prison, no? You can verify whether the “Chinese narrative” is true or not, can’t you?

    “… if you want to get first-hand info about Tibet the best advice I can give you is to visit a pro-Tibet organization in any country that you chose. ”

    Bad advice. The best way is to visit Tibet yourself. Do you know what happened in 1959? Do you know how the Tibetan serf system worked? Do you know who were those that fled Tibet? Regarding talking to the “pro-Tibet” organizations, you should know who, why and how most of the Tibetans went exile, do you? They certainly were not the serf, which constituted over 90% of the population, were they? Yes, I am calling them BS, and have no problem calling them “liars” in front of them if they repeat the lies you said in your comments here.

    “Another advice would be to do some traveling and visit Asia and Africa – and you will find that the mindset of other cultures can be very different from what you had imagined.”

    And amazingly, you avoid even talking about visiting Tibet and China – the main subject of your comments.

    “I see no point in continuing this totally theoretical discussion.”

    I don’t see this as a “totally theoretical discussion” – only you do. The problem is that you are throwing out so many untrue statements, so I feel the need to state the correct facts. Also, stop sitting in your high moral horse – besides you, a lot of people care about Tibet – and they include the Chinese you are maligning here.

  97. Vidi says:
    @Question Mark

    The Tibetans are an extraordinary people: not only are they able to live and prosper at altitudes of +4000m but in the 16th century they changed their warrior ways and decided to follow the buddhist way and try to better understand the human mind by meditation. And so they became an absolutely peaceful people dedicated to mind research.

    “Absolutely peaceful people” — yeah, right. There were torture chambers in the Potala Palace (link), located under the apartments of the peaceful and spiritually enlightened Dalai Lama.

    When China’s government confirmed that the chambers were used for torture, the news did not make much of a splash in Tibet, as the ordinary people knew that chambers of pain existed in nearly all the large monasteries.

    I think you have been exclusively talking to the Tibetan one percent; the monks were definitely included in Tibet’s elite and did a lot of the enforcing of a very unequal society, as the torture chambers prove. Naturally the elites are yearning for the powers and the privileges that they used to have. If you talk to the lower 99% I think you would get a very different picture.

    • Agree: d dan, denk
  98. @RoatanBill

    So you really don’t know governments use field agents??? You watch too much tv to believe they get everything from satellites and planes.
    Interestingly though Israel and Italian officials told the US the same thing when the US objected to them letting Chinese companies run ports. They said “China doesn’t need boots on the ground to get the information they want”.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  99. @Stonewall Jackson

    Why do people make up so much nonsense about “stealing”. Let me ask you a question – did you ever change jobs??? What job wants to hire you with no experience?? They hire you for what you know. That is not “stealing”. A student who studies and learns something and returns to their home country is not “stealing”. Nor is Apple being stolen from. Tim Cook just had to testify before Congress and said such. So did the head of Google. In fact Apple (like Tesla) says they prefer making things in China simply because people have more technical ability and work harder. Sorry if it hurts your feelings – but it is the reality.

  100. @theMann

    I don’t think you get the point… Well obviously you don’t. The point is the US media trying to spin stories that the US is benevolent and China locked up innocent people. So who should get over what again?

  101. @showmethereal

    Of course the gov’t has field agents and other welfare recipients with a job. The point I’m making is that the US doesn’t need anything but a satellite for military targeting of high value targets that typically can’t be camouflaged.

    Sending an agent to visit the 3 gorge dam, for example, is going to do what exactly? Is his final report plus his luxurious expense report going to provide any more information than -‘yes it’s right where the satellite said it would be’?

    The gov’t is full of malingerers with attractive pay packages that really don’t do squat.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  102. Polemos says:
    @RoatanBill

    Well, okay, but then it seems you’re answering your question here

    With satellites that supposedly can read the license plate numbers on vehicles, why would there be a need to put people on the ground with less sophisticated gear?

    You’re providing several reasons why there will need to be people on the ground (or, as you suggest in another comment about surveying, nearby drones in the air?), aren’t you? So, maybe you were and are helping us to think through the implications of the article?

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  103. @Polemos

    Lets face the overriding fact – the US military wants to destroy stuff; that’s what they do.

    All they need is to get withing a few meters of a target and it’s toast. There’s no need for millimetre accuracy.

    The premise of the article is that the US Fed Gov is probably using people on the ground to get GPS readings. I see no need for that because they have satellites.

    If the article was about shooting some guy in the head through a 2nd story window, then granularity in measurements makes sense and having some stooge figure out the best way is appropriate. But that’s not what the article is about, at least not in my reading.

    • Replies: @Polemos
  104. @Question Mark

    Sorry – but you have been given false history.

    So you claim the Tibetans were peaceful for centuries? So in 1905 – how did Tibetans torture and kill French Christian Missionaries in an uprising??? That wasn’t the first and wasn’t the last.
    Explain why Tibetans were killing others from all other ethnic groups they came in contact with during the Nationalist Republic of China before the CPC ever even got into power….
    Explain why there was torture of the serfs by the upper class of the Dalai Lama and his crew.
    Similar to Xinjiang – Tibet was in and out of China’s orbit since the Tang Dynasty (Han Dynasty in the case of Xinjiang). Both then firmly were part of China in the Qing Dyansty but operated fairly autonomously. When the Revolution happened in 1911 the Nationalists sought to consolidate their position as part of China. They were too weak and disorganized to effectively manage them – but every nation except the Russians in case of Xinjiang and the British in the case of Tibet recognized them as a part of the ROC. Not because they didn’t believe they belonged to Qing Dynasty China… But simply they wanted them for their own empires. Once the CPC took over from the KMT – they firmly re-solidified those areas as part of China.

    Since then – the CIA has been actively trying to poke China through both of those regions.

    • Replies: @Question Mark
  105. @RoatanBill

    “Sending an agent to visit the 3 gorge dam, for example, is going to do what exactly?”

    The fact you ask such a question is proof you don’t understand how intelligence agencies work. Stop watching movies and read declassified documents and maybe even some works by people who worked in intelligence.
    Or go ask someone who works a contractor that analyze sat pics. There are many in the DC beltway. They – won’t (or shouldn’t) give you details on classified info – but they will tell you that you can’t tell everything from sat images. It’s not just about targeting either. Boots on the ground are needed for sensitive matters.

    And if the US bombs the 3 gorges dam – what do you think would happen?? That would kill as many people as dropping a nuke. That would be insane – and a war crime. So all bets would be off.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  106. @showmethereal

    I see you won’t answer my question but keep harping on some nonsense.

    I’ve had enough.

    Talk to yourself if you like. I’m done.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  107. @RoatanBill

    “However, satellites exist and are visible from the ground with hobby grade optics. ”

    They’re near earth asteroids.

  108. This is a bit off-topic, but just a quick note on weapons targeting. It is true that a satellite can provide a weapons fix for a very large object such as a dam or a huge building – assuming you don’t care which portion of the object you hit with the missile.

    But satellite photos are flat, two-dimensional, even when taken at an angle, and cannot provide the necessary third dimension for a precise targeting fix, regardless of the resolving power of the lenses.

    If you want to target a missile at a smaller fixed object such as a wellhead or a missile installation, you need a very precise GPS coordinate set, and that can normally be obtained only on the ground. Satellite maps simply cannot produce the required precision.

  109. @RoatanBill

    Yeah I notice there tends to be a lot of childish people in the comments section. If you want the answer I told you what to do. I have neither the time nor the space to spoon feed you. How far did you go in school with an attitude like that?

  110. @showmethereal

    re: Tibetans peaceful for centuries.
    They were peaceful in the sense that they did not invade other countries but Tibet was known to forbid entry to any foreigner because they wanted to be left alone. And clearly they didn’t want to be colonized.

    re: Torture of serfs.
    Yes, the monks had become used to being the admired upper classes and there were indeed abuses like the torture of disobedient serfs. BTW the exiled monks believe themselves that the reason for the occuption of Tibet was because they had to some extent lost their way (a sort of Karma). Apparently the young Dalai Lama tried to change their ways but he was ignored.

    re:Qing Dynasty.
    As far as I know there was never a Chinese population in Tibet. If my memories are correct the reason that China claimed sovereignity over Tibet was that a Tibetan king was married to a Chinese princess. But the idea that Tibet “belonged” to China was a Chinese claim and was never accepted by the Tibetans (except for a very small minority who hoped to be rewarded).

    re: Foreign appetites for Tibet and the role of the Dalai Lama.
    This is most certainly true. In particular the escaped Dalai Lama who had many sympathies in the West was offered help by the CIA who tried to foment a revolution in Tibet in order to destabilize China’s new conquest – and which failed miserably. But the Dalai Lama never wanted the Tibetans to secede from China by violence and he always told the Tibetans to use the “3rd way” which was basically the idea “dont try to secede but keep your ways”. And he accepted help from the CIA because it was the only way he could help Tibetans. He is still today the only one who really wants to help Tibetans but his international reputation has been destroyed when it was made public that he was financed by NED (among others) and that he was also used by the CIA. I do not particularly admire him but I believe that he is between a rock and a hard place: The US spooks use his good name with Tibetans to further their plans (with very little success it seems) but they also finance him to some extent and how can he refuse the only help that he has? And because I admire a civilization which is trying to better understand the human mind (which is also a personal interest of mine) I still stand by him.

    I appreciate a civilized exchange of ideas and if you have any more arguments that you think I should know I would be interested.
    Regards
    Mark

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  111. Polemos says:
    @RoatanBill

    Okay, we agree: this is about blowing things up or ending human life.

    So when you say that you can’t reasonably get the 3rd dimension from images (except stereoscopically to some extent), but then say there’s the millimeter accuracy from the ocean surface readings, what do you take is the difference in saying we can’t get one thing but could another way? I guess I did not understand what you mean by referencing the ocean surface measurements, because I’m not sure how to take the wrapping that it’s done to justify fraud or your bold emphasis on the supposition of surface measurements. I do not know how much you’re winking in giving that option, so to speak.

    If it is true there is GPS jamming or misleading taking place—as with the earlier comments on this article about how streets in one view do not match satellite imagery in a different view—then perhaps precise GPS positioning on the ground can give some insight into how warped the accuracy is. So, maybe they are trying to corroborate how much the satellite imagery—or the other form of sensing you’re saying is not images but what satellites are doing to take surface depth measurements of the ocean, as an example—using the examples you are yourself providing.

  112. J Lee says:
    @RoatanBill

    Yes driving down the street with a gps can map it. Do you realize it is an exact description of the Coca-Cola truck spy op alleged in the article?
    I myself am a drone operator and can tell you that while they are nifty gadgets that can produce astoundingly accurate 3D maps, they are not super spy robots that enter a country, snap pics and exit all on their own. An operator is required to bring it there, set it up and pack it up. In this case the operators were local surveyors hired for a job by plausibly deniable US assets. That’s how the funny money is being spent, on local schmucks asked to do something illegal in their own country and offered moral support when they get caught.

    • Thanks: Showmethereal
  113. J Lee says:
    @Polemos

    https://www.serviceobjects.com/blog/why-gps-coordinates-look-wrong-on-maps-of-china/
    Here’s a reasonable introduction to the issue. The “China problem” is quite infamous among developers of apps involving geolocation.

  114. @Question Mark

    1) Tibet was once an Empire. Even after that was lost it is a fact Tibetans attacked foreigners just for being foreigners and even other Tibetans who were not a part of their independence dream. Foreign governments lobbied China to bring them under control. The Brits even asked and received compensation for the perceived insolence that Tibetans would dare fight the British.

    2) Han people didnt move en masse to Tibet because it was left an autonmous region. The other and main reason is that Tibetans migrated to other parts of China because Tibet is a tough tough place to live. You habe more Tibets elsewhere in China than Tibet itself. That was not the government who forced them.
    Also in Tang Dynasty days there was intermarriage between leaders to foster the relationship. But it wasnt until the Qing Dynasty that it firmly became part of China. It is a fact that the Tibetan leaders had a delegation in the Qing Dynasty court just like every other region. There are even huge Tibetan temples and a “village” outside of Beijing for similar reasons. And most importantly – the Qing Dynasty had the final say on who the Dalai Lama would be. Those are measurable historical facts. Not the made for Hollywood re-write…. No disrespect to you.

    I am glad you acknowledge the serfdom and the abuse and the indoctrination of self harm.

    • Replies: @Question Mark
  115. KA says:

    “ The American media are fond of accusing the Chinese of “seeing a conspiracy around every corner”, but these events are sufficient in number to justify China’s “

    Just wait 30 years or so American media like NPR would do a segment on the espionage activities . They are doing one now on Hiroshima coverup .

    America owns up past mistakes like it’s doing in Iran Guatemala or Phillipine . But those lessons learnt are for foreign countries to imbibe and then to behave according . We just bolstered by the remorse and exposure carry on same things . We are as we speak doing against Venezuela and Syria .

    That lesson also be exported for other countries to learn and behave .

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  116. @KA

    Nah, we may talk about them, but learns nothing and changes nothing. Most of the times are just echo chambers designed to keep the morons busy.

    That is the essence of the so called civil society in the USA.

  117. @Showmethereal

    I have completely lost my trust in “historical facts” and especially so for authoritarian and eternally expanding countries. But I believe that you are looking for truth and reality and I wish you success in this endeavour.

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