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A Brief Introduction to Gypsies
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“May you wander over the face of the earth forever, never sleep twice in the same bed, never drink water twice from the same well and never cross the same river twice in a year.” – An old Gypsy curse.

First, let me tell you of my personal experiences with Gypsies. These cover a period of approximately ten years mostly in Italy, Romania, Germany and France.

One stark memory is of a Gypsy man perhaps 45 years old with what appeared to be a badly-twisted and lame leg supported by a crutch, begging for money in my piazza in Rome. It was painful to watch the man navigate the curbs and flagstones, making his way around the piazza, hoping for a few coins. He was there all morning on most days, but around noon he would pause his circular pilgrimage, stop to empty his pockets and count his bills and change, and apparently decide he had enough for a good meal. So, he would stand up, put his crutch over his shoulder and waltz over to the nice restaurant across the street for lunch.

Another fond memory is of a young Gypsy girl, perhaps only 15 or 16 years old, sitting on the steps of the basilica in the piazza with an infant wrapped in a swaddling blanket and again begging for money. Many church-goers coming and going took pity on the girl and gave generously. But now her blanket was becoming unkempt so, completely oblivious to the surrounding parishioners, she unwrapped the blanket, laid it out and re-folded it so it was again nice and neat. It was a surprise to see there was no infant there; just an empty and cleverly-folded blanket which, with the pathetic facial expressions and body language, was enough to make a good living.

I could not recount the number of times I was approached on the street in Rome (and in other cities) by a very attractive young Gypsy woman, in her early 20s and carrying an infant. She would come very close to me, intimate and friendly, choosing one subject or another for conversation while her infant held a largish piece of cardboard between us. It didn’t take long to realise the purpose of that cardboard was to block my view of her free hand reaching for my pockets. It was beautifully executed and, with the charming voice and lovely smile of a pretty young mother, suspicions were neutralised. And these girls were everywhere. I couldn’t imagine the number of passports and wallets that must have disappeared due to this virtual army of young Gypsy mothers.

My second-most favorite experience was in a retail shop in Rome. I cannot recall the goods it sold, but it had tables rather than high shelves, rather like a billiard hall with 50 tables, and about the same size and height. As I was walking around, I noticed a commotion where a young Gypsy girl, perhaps 15 or 16 years old, must have been caught trying to steal something, and where several men were trying to corner her. The girl dodged and weaved, and made her way almost to the wide exit doors but two adult men were blocking the aisles leading out. I wish you could have been there to see this. The girl paused for a moment, then chose one aisle and rushed right up to the man and screeched to a halt within less than a foot from him. But at that instant, just before the man could grab her in his arms, the girl pulled up her sweater, fully exposing her lovely young breasts. The man appeared stunned, and for a split second he froze, with that fraction of a second more than sufficient time for the girl to duck under his arm and disappear into the street. I was overcome with admiration because her timing was perfect. That act was not only choreographed, but must have been rehearsed 100 times, and was as professionally-executed as any maneuver I have ever seen. It was like watching a Jackie Chan movie.

However, my favorite Gypsy story took place in Romania, the “home” of the Gypsies. I was walking around downtown Bucharest with a friend, and at an intersection we came upon a Gypsy woman perhaps 45 years old who had a small table set up on the sidewalk with flowers she was selling. And these were not single-stem roses, but elaborate and beautiful bouquets of rare and expensive flowers, all elegantly arranged. I was totally impressed. I said to my friend, “Jesus, this is a lot better than in Rome. In Rome, all the Gypsies do is beg and steal. Here, they are at least trying to earn money by doing something useful.” And my friend said, “Well, it would be better if they weren’t stealing the flowers from the cemeteries.”

But not all events were as pleasant. I cannot eradicate from my memory the picture of a small Gypsy girl perhaps 8 or 10 years old, half-sitting and half-lying on the sidewalk begging for money. She had her dress pulled up to reveal a horribly twisted and mangled leg that appeared to have been broken in several places with none of the parts in their proper position or at a correct angle. Even worse, most of that leg had been severely burned, displaying much more ugly scar tissue than human flesh. It was wrenching to contemplate the suffering that child must have undergone at some earlier point in her life. Naturally, the donations were copious. But then I recalled seeing another young girl of similar age with essentially the same injuries in Florence some months prior. And another in Bologna, and in Venice, and Naples, and in Paris and Marseilles. And I was forced to conclude that such similar injuries to small Gypsy girls in such a number could not have been a coincidence. The injuries had to have been deliberately inflicted; there was no other possibility.

Things may have changed since I lived in Rome but, with the Gypsies being almost entirely nomadic at the time, there were no Gypsy cemeteries. No one knew who died or how or why they died, nor what happened to the body. The leader of a Gypsy Clan or a Group has more or less life and death authority over those under his command, and it would be this man who could levy a death penalty for violations – or for being elderly. He would decide when and which infants would be physically mangled to assist the community’s begging efforts. It would be this man who would direct and organise all the begging and thieving categories and arrange for the instruction and training and, judging by experience, this of necessity would begin at a very young age.

Some Background

The Gypsies have historically been nomads, wandering tinkers and thieves. They would not settle down in any one place but would be constantly on the move, usually traveling in their colorful wagons, stopping in a town for a day or a few days, then moving on. They were curious, novel, and often entertaining. Many were excellent musicians or gymnasts, sometimes offering to entertain at wedding parties where they would capably acquit themselves. They sometimes had small circuses and were apparently gifted at training animals like bears.

Most often when entering a town they would perform small repairs for the townsfolk – sharpening knives, repairing pots and pans, doing small kinds of metal work. The men were mostly good blacksmiths and would often shoe horses as part of the local service, while the women would engage in clothing repairs and in fortune-telling. And, while some men and women were thus engaged, the remainder of the clan would freely roam the town to steal everything not nailed down. It was usually only after their departure that the townsfolk would begin to receive an accounting of everything missing. It was so bad that many towns in Europe began to pay Gypsies to go away as soon as they appeared.

Gypsy women became known as palm readers and petty thieves, suspected of sorcery. A Bologna chronicle from 1422 gave this account of a visit from a Gypsy group: “Amongst those who wished to have their fortunes told, few went to consult without having their purse stolen. The women of the band wandered about the town, six or eight together; they entered the houses of the citizens and told idle tales, during which some of them laid hold of whatever could be taken. In the same way, they visited the shops under the pretext of buying something, but one of them would steal. While a turban-wearing Gypsy woman told your fortune, her children would pick your pockets. It was said that the Gypsy women cast spells and practiced witchcraft; the Gypsy men were experts at picking locks and pilfering horses.”

“They always had a fortune telling tent set up. They did palm reading by holding a man’s hand while trying to pick his pocket with the other hand. I’d seen it many times in plain sight in front of their tent. I was told they wanted to get a man inside where a young female fortune teller could sexually distract a man while Mama picked his back pocket from behind a tent flap. But that was woman’s work. So was setting up and taking down the tent. Men just stood around and “supervised” the women. The men’s real job was casing stores in town by day and breaking and entering by night on the last night before packing up and moving on to the next town in the morning.”

Over time, they apparently became excellent horse trainers and horse traders, with excellent judgment of horseflesh in terms of both evaluating and stealing. They also navigated to trading of ferrous and non-ferrous scrap metals and the collection of waste and eked a reasonable living. They slowly progressed to some kinds of small retail businesses, though most still made their fortunes out of begging and theft. But times change; as the UK has learned to its dismay, one of their prime talents is the illegal collection of social assistance from the British state.

Some Gypsies in Europe have become relatively wealthy, at least to the extent of accumulating property worth 5 or 10 million euros, and those who are no longer migrant sometimes own very large homes. Their occupations have also changed: European Gypsies, especially in Romania and Germany, are heavily involved in illegal real estate businesses, with stolen luxury cars being another favorite. While they have not yet progressed into respectable banking, Gypsies are often entangled in money-laundering and various usury activities, typically granting short-term loans at high interest in Romanian or other local currency. In Romania, when you are offered US dollars on the street or in your hotel at an attractive rate of exchange, the dollars are almost always counterfeit (excellent reproductions, too) and the seller is almost invariably a Gypsy. Blackmail is another favorite.

But even the settled and non-nomadic Gypsies still maintain their fundamental thieving nature, problems with the law being the normal course of events. Romanian gossip is replete on almost a daily basis of some Gypsy’s fancy home being stormed by Interpol agents yet one more time. Some of this relates to teams of small children taken to England on beg-and-steal missions. Gypsies were (and still are) repeatedly accused of forgery of nearly every kind, including property ownership documents and residence documents. There are records from as far back as the early 1400s telling how Gypsies traveled around Europe with “safe-conduct letters” from the Pope, all of which were apparently forged. They are generally accused of deception of every kind, of embezzlement and tax evasion, and of stealing everything including electricity from the grid.

One website in Romania published this comment from a reader: “Gypsies, through everything they do, are a burden to any community. You can’t live with individuals without law, God, education, morals. How many of the approximately two million Gypsies work? Very few, under 5% probably. But they reproduce in ignorance. How can individuals who have no profession, no home, no future, ensure a future for their children? All these future generations of Gypsies will be Europe’s future criminals, future killers of the elderly who, after a lifetime of work, can be slaughtered without problems by gypsies.

Why should The Romanians, Mr. President, bear the gypsy terror? Why not be able to travel in Bucharest, after a certain hour, thanks to the Gypsies? Why should Romanians be labelled Gypsies, while Gypsies are called Roma? Wake up Romanians. For those who want to know what gypsies in Romania do, they are a state within the state, the laws applying only to the ‘suckers’ of Romanians, who toil hard for the Gypsies to have social benefits and from where they steal.”[1]https://asapteadimensiune.ro/de-ce-tiganii-nu-sunt-d...page-1

Gypsies are not discriminated against in Romania

About the Gypsies in Transylvania, the historian J. Lebprecht wrote that they fall into two categories: “those with permanent residence, who deal partly with agriculture, part with crafts and especially with blacksmithing, and some of them make their living out of the fiddlery, progress well and lead a quiet life. Then are the gypsies of the village, who are not stable and roam the whole country”. Other travelers through the Romanian countries, three hundred years ago, remember [these] as the horror ethnicity that stole the children and horses of the Romanians. The most feared was the category was “neots”, gypsies without craftsmanship, without houses or tents who wandered around the country and [committed] robberies and murders. Another job, apart from blacksmithing and brass, they hardly have. [Their] Nature is the same as in other countries, they have the same mores and their supreme virtue and the specific difference is theft and laziness.”

It is interesting to observe, certainly in Romania but in other European countries as well, that Gypsies are rarely held to account for these crimes. In one case in Romania, a Gypsy who had perpetrated an astonishing act of deception in the sale of a property was essentially forgiven by the judge and received only a two-year suspended sentence. In another recent case, Romania’s National Integrity Agency notified the Tax Inspectorate that an apparently wealthy Gypsy had not paid taxes on at least several hundred thousand euros of income, and in one year had declared income of 38,000 euros but spent 140,000 euros. No action was taken by the officials.

It seems that some subset of Gypsies has perfected the techniques of insinuating themselves into the channels of officialdom in such a manner as to more or less guarantee immunity from prosecution. It is possible that blackmail plays some part in this process, but this is likely a minor part, perhaps a kind of backstop, since many of this ‘subset’ have apparently become expert at becoming ‘friends of the court’ with relations at the highest levels of government and the judiciary. In Romania, for example, some rich Gypsies are close friends with the brothers and sisters of the President, are present at baptisms of the elite’s newly-born, regularly attend the funerals of a Prime Minister’s mother, and so on.

My friends in Romania and a few other European countries tell me that regular citizens would be in jail, but the police and authorities seem to tolerate crimes by Gypsies who then prosper. They claim this is in no small measure due to their ability to involve themselves in local political and social affairs, often seen sharing a table with people of high rank and status – politicians, policemen, judges, prosecutors, businessmen. They have no easy explanation as to how this influence is achieved, but many believe it to be carefully-planned from a central source and taking advantage of an instinctive natural talent.

They can be astonishingly bold. In one instance in the village of Iasi in Romania, a group of Gypsies commandeered a cemetery, set up tents and began to barbeque piglets and have a huge party. They even confiscated the chapel. They simply claimed the area as theirs, and refused entry to the townsfolk to bury their dead. The local police for some reason seemed unable to deal with this, and it was only a huge outcry in the media that forced some action.

As a rule, Gypsies do not assimilate. They may adopt the superficial trappings of the society in which they live, even including the local religion although they are almost never seen in a church and maintain their own traditions for marriage. In the UK, at least until very recently, the Gypsies fought viciously to maintain, and were successful in obtaining, official government approval for their nomadic lifestyle. Thus, most were not registered anywhere, had no obligation to place their children in schools, and operated virtually as a state within a state, a group of anonymous and independent itinerants.

It doesn’t seem to have been all bad: “In Provence, it seems the Gypsies were welcomed. It is there that they first began to be called Bohemians. People flocked to them to have their fortunes told. The Gypsies claimed to have dukes and counts among them and later added captains and kings. The Spanish nobility protected the Gypsies at first. Gypsy women were adored for their beauty and seductive charms; Gypsy men were admired as excellent judges of the quality of horses, and hired by nobles to procure them for their stables.”

But the good times don’t seem to have lasted; the Gypsies were generally treated very badly and expelled from nation after nation.

Gypsy Expulsions

In England, the Egyptian Act of 1530 was passed to expel Gypsies from the realm, for being lewd vagabonds, conning the good citizens out of their money, and committing a rash of felony robberies. In 1562, Queen Elizabeth signed an order designed to force Gypsies to settle into permanent dwellings, or face death. Under King James I, England began to deport Gypsy people to the American colonies, as well as Jamaica and Barbados. Dumping undesirables into the colonies became a widespread practice, not only Gypsies, but also “thieves, beggars, and whores” – these forming the early populations of North America. There were repeated expulsions from Spain, Portugal, England, Scotland, France, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Egypt.

In Scotland, “a decree was issued in 1624 that traveling Gypsy men would be arrested and hanged, Gypsy women without children would be drowned, and gypsy women with children would be whipped and branded on the cheek.” Many were hanged for being “Egyptians”. In 1497, the Diet (legislature) of the Holy Roman Empire issued a decree that expelled all Gypsies from Germany for espionage. In 1510, Switzerland followed suit and added the death penalty. A Swiss chronicler denounced Gypsies as “useless rascals who wander about in our day, and of whom the most worthy is a thief, for they live solely for stealing.”

“133 laws against Gypsies were passed in the Holy Roman Empire between 1551 and 1774. One of those, passed in 1710, made it a crime to be a Gypsy woman or an old Gypsy man in Germany. They were widely viewed as a godless and wicked people. Violators were to be flogged, branded, and deported. To be a Gypsy man in Germany was to be given a life sentence of prison at hard labor. Children of Gypsy people were taken away from them and put into good Christian homes. In 1493, they were banned from Milan because they were beggars and thieves who disturbed the peace.”

“Gypsies were never well received in Germany. Near the close of the nineteenth century, things got worse as Germans subscribed to the theories of Italian criminologist Cesare Lombroso. One of his ideas was that criminality is inherited. As one proof of this, Lombroso pointed to the Gypsies, whom he described as generation after generation of people who are vain, shameless, shiftless, noisy, licentious, and violent. Not to mention puppeteers and accordion players.

“In 1886, Bismarck noted “complaints about the mischief caused by bands of Gypsies traveling about in the Reich and their increasing molestation of the population.” In 1899, a clearing house was set up in Munich to collate reports of the movements of Gypsies. The general German opinion was that the nomadic Gypsies used the cover of being entertainers and perfume dealers, but actually focused on begging and stealing. These people are by nature opposed to all work and find it especially difficult to tolerate any restriction of their nomadic life.”

“By the 1960s, Gypsy caravans were now mostly drawn with motorized vehicles, and tents had largely been replaced by rough shacks. Many took up residence in state supplied slum housing. Most Gypsies remained uneducated and illiterate. Many of the men became scrap dealers, and some worked with copper to produce ornamental, decorative pieces of art. Gypsy women were still noted for fortune telling and begging. Some Gypsy children turned to shoplifting, picking pockets, and stealing from vehicles, since they were immune to prosecution.”

“A 1989 report by the European Community stated that only 35 percent of 500,000 Gypsy children in the 12 member states attended school regularly; half had never been to school even one time; hardly any went on to secondary education; and Gypsy adults had an illiteracy rate of 50 percent. In France and Italy, Gypsy families still work the circus and fairgrounds. In many countries they operate repair services of various types; sell used cars, furniture, antiques, and junk; sell carpet and textiles. They still hawk, make music, and tell fortunes.”

“Gypsies were ordered expelled from the Meissen region of Germany in 1416, Lucerne in 1471, Milan in 1493, France in 1504, Catalonia in 1512, Sweden in 1525, England in 1530, and Denmark in 1536. From 1510 onwards, any Romani found in Switzerland were to be executed, while in England (beginning in 1554) and Denmark (beginning of 1589) any Romani which did not leave within a month were to be executed. Portugal began deportations of Romanis to its colonies in 1538.”

Gypsies were slaughtered with impunity throughout Holland, in a serious attempt to eradicate the entire race. “Elsewhere in Europe, they were subjected to ethnic cleansing, abduction of their children, and forced labor. In England, Romani were sometimes expelled from small communities or hanged; in France, they were branded, and their heads were shaved; in Moravia and Bohemia, the women were marked by their ears being severed. As a result, large groups of the Romani moved to the East, toward Poland, which was more tolerant, and Russia, where the Romani were treated more fairly as long as they paid the annual taxes.”

“Even though the majority of Gypsy people left the Ottoman Empire and moved on to Europe, some remained. In 1696, Sultan Mustafa II issued orders for Gypsies to be disciplined for their immoral and disorderly lifestyles. They were described as “pimps and prostitutes”, and decrees were issued to regulate Gypsy prostitution.”

“Settled people are usually suspicious of rootless, masterless wanderers with no fixed address. The Gypsies traveled about Europe as did no other people (other than the Khazars after converting to Judaism and suffering the extermination of their kingdom), so they knew more than most about what was happening in various countries, and the activities of their inhabitants. This led to rumors that Gypsies were being used as spies.”

This latter paragraph should be noted. There were repeated tales, many apparently documented, of Gypsies certainly “knowing more than most about what was happening in various countries” and quite likely collecting intelligence on government and court matters, again with their apparent ability to insinuate themselves into the political and social structures of various cities and nations. Accusations of spying would almost naturally follow and may well have been justified.

I would also note that the expulsions and even much of the mistreatment of the Gypsies does not appear to have been racially motivated in the sense of a powerful “anti-Gypsy” sentiment, but more from an accumulated and exasperated intolerance for their crimes and socially-inacceptable behavior. Although in fairness, an excess of the latter will often lead to excesses of the former, but still not free of blame.

History and Origin

“Gypsies have long been among the most mysterious, exotic peoples on earth, described as a race of nomads who have no real home. Gypsies do have their own language, Romani, and they identify themselves as Romani people. Gypsy history remained unknown for centuries, largely because they had no written language and, strangely enough, they had forgotten where they came from. Gypsies generally claimed to be Egyptians – hence the name “Gypsy”. Although these people were proven to not be Egyptians, the name Gypsy stuck (as well as the word “gyp”).”

The origin of the Gypsy people has been a subject of curiosity to historians for a long time. The current state of affairs seems to be that few historians know very much and are mostly guessing. Wikipedia tells us that “Genetic findings suggest an Indian origin for the Roma (Gypsy). Because Romani groups did not keep chronicles of their history or have oral accounts of it, most hypotheses about the Romani migration’s early history are based on linguistic theory.” Wiki also tells us that “There is also no known record of a migration from India to Europe from medieval times that can be connected indisputably to Roma.”

This is typical of the speculation that still occurs today. Questionable genetic findings “suggest” Gypsies may have originated in North West India, and questionable linguistic studies have identified a small number of words or expressions in the Gypsy tongue that bear some resemblance to Sanskrit. But if the Roma (Gypsies) did indeed originate in India, there is no known record of any migration so the entire theory is simply a theory.

These movements of people in history can be fascinating. It reminds us of the puzzle over the Hungarians – the Magyars – since they are clearly not a European people and their language is in no way a European language, yet they inhabit a country inside Europe. Many theories were presented over the years, all based on largely uninformed speculation, until it was discovered that this nation of people were Mongols and migrated from Western Mongolia centuries ago to form a new homeland more or less in the center of Eastern Europe. So far as I am aware, no one yet knows how or why that would have occurred.

In terms of the Gypsies, and considering the timing of their relatively sudden appearance in all the countries of Europe, there were many such movements of peoples at more or less the same time, perhaps coinciding with the destruction of Khazaria and the partial extermination of the Khazars and their also relatively sudden appearance in all the countries of Europe.

We have a potential involvement with the Mongol invasions, which occurred at about the same time the Gypsies appeared, and also the Tatars from the Russian steppes. And in addition to the Khazars, we have the Kievan Rus and the Pechenegs and Cumans – who may have been the people who drove the Magyars into what is now Hungary. According to some Romanian journalists and historians, the Gypsies arrived in the area with the last Mongol invasions that dragged the Gypsies with them.

Whatever the truth of this, and I pretend no expertise on this topic, there are many facts that suggest the Roma did not originate in India but are some form of what would now be considered European. While I am not familiar with all Gypsies everywhere, I have seen a great many, and none appear to be of Indian extraction. Some are swarthy, but many if not most appear to be some brand of European rather than Indian. Many could pass as Italian, Romanian, Russian, or Hungarian. You can see the photo of the Gypsy girl below.

And then there is a fascinating article in the archives of the Atlantic Magazine from February of 1866, in an article written by George Washington Hosmer asserting that the Gypsies are in fact Europeans. The author says they were referred to as “Bohemians” for hundreds of years and that “it is remarkable that that name has been so little considered in attempts to penetrate this mystery.” He states, correctly, that the Gypsies were nomads who “dwelt in their wagon-camps in the open country, and were under a vow never again to sleep beneath a roof. They also refused obedience to any sovereign.”[2]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1866/02...27983/

The Origin of the Gypsies; By George Washington Hosmer; February, 1886 Issue

Hosmer also states that while there are similarities in the language with Hindu dialects, the similarities are even better for a Bohemian than for Hindu origin. “The Bohemians were Czechs, a branch of the Slavic race of undoubted Asiatic origin, and the Czech language descended from the Sanskrit almost as directly as the Hindu dialects did. Here is a good reason why the Hindu dialects and the Gypsy tongue – if the Gypsies were Bohemians – should closely resemble one another. They were from the same parent stem.” He says “The Gypsy language is a mixture of corrupt words from the Wallachian, Slavonian, Hungarian, and other nations. These are the cognate languages of the Slavic race, all descended from the same source, and that also the source of the Cech. The first list of Gypsy words ever made was cited to prove an Egyptian origin, [but] they were Slavic.”

Epilogue

I don’t know if it is possible to make a link between the migrations throughout Europe of the Khazars and the Gypsies, but there seem to be some common elements that suggest the Gypsies might even have been a lower class of the Khazars or of people similar. Whatever the truth of this, and this is speculation on my part, there do appear to be some common shared elements between these two peoples.

Both were driven from their place of origin and had no homeland. Nether had a written language. Both were itinerant, fiercely independent, vowing no allegiance to any nation and a distinct unwillingness to be subjugated or to assimilate. Both groups appear to have a long history of pursuing wealth by other than accepted means, even though the types of preferred crimes were different. Both the Khazars and the Gypsies indicated a natural ability to insinuate themselves into the authoritative structures, to admittedly varying degrees, and both seemed to possess a facility for creating personal immunity. Both had a facility for “knowing more than most about what was happening in various countries”.

And, of course, both groups were reviled for their behavior and subjected to repeated expulsions from almost every country in which they chose to settle. On a more sinister note, both groups appear to consider their “lesser members” as being expendable.

In the 1960s and 1970s many TV programs carried a kind of disclaimer at the end: “Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events, (or other ethnic groups) is purely coincidental.” I could make such a disclaimer here.

I must confess that in the above commentary I have unintentionally slandered many Gypsies by presenting a one-dimensional picture of the entire race. It is true that the descriptions above, while true and accurate, represent only a subset of Gypsies. There are many today who have indeed assimilated to one degree or another, who are fine and upstanding citizens, and who do not deserve the characterisations levied above. This may be more true in the diaspora of North and South America than in Europe.

This is a fascinating subject that rewards reading and research, but I would caution readers that on the subject of Gypsies there is a huge amount of uninformed rubbish on the Internet, especially on their origin, social structures, traditions and customs, behavior. Much of this is almost at a high-school level, so caution is advised. One website tells us that “Romani social behavior is strictly regulated by Indian social customs”, which is nonsense, and another that “Virginity is essential in unmarried Gypsy women”, also nonsense. Similarly, “One of the Romani traditions is to get married at the age fifteen. To distinguish between non married and married women is to notice that married women have their head covered with a cloth called “Batic”, the symbol of married women.” If so, I have never seen it.

I have accumulated a few references for you (“READING” below). The first is one of the best I have found. It appears to be free of misinformation and ideology, and is excellent, entertaining, informative, and easy reading.

Mr. Romanoff’s writing has been translated into 32 languages and his articles posted on more than 150 foreign-language news and politics websites in more than 30 countries, as well as more than 100 English language platforms. Larry Romanoff is a retired management consultant and businessman. He has held senior executive positions in international consulting firms, and owned an international import-export business. He has been a visiting professor at Shanghai’s Fudan University, presenting case studies in international affairs to senior EMBA classes. Mr. Romanoff lives in Shanghai and is currently writing a series of ten books generally related to China and the West. He is one of the contributing authors to Cynthia McKinney’s new anthology ‘When China Sneezes’. (Chapt. 2 — Dealing with Demons). http://www.bluemoonofshanghai.com/politics/2187/

His full archive can be seen at: http://www.bluemoonofshanghai.com/ and https://www.moonofshanghai.com/

He can be contacted at: [email protected]

READING

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Gypsies

History of the Gypsies

https://allthatsinteresting.com/gypsies-history

A People Without a Country: The Gypsies

https://www.romanianhistoryandculture.com/vlachspechenegscumans.htm

Romanian History and Culture; Pechenegs, Cumans and the Vlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechenegs

Pechenegs

https://adevarul.ro/locale/focsani/lucruri-putin-stiute-despre-tigani-venit-s-au-raspandit-principatele-romane-erau-proprietatea-statului-tiganii-domnesti-1_5673ef3f37115986c691199a/index.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Romani people

https://atinganos.wordpress.com/2011/11/26/tigani-bogati-din-romania/

Wealthy Gypsies in Romania

https://www.partidaromilor.ro/romii-origini-limba-traditii-istorie/

Roma: Origins, language, traditions, history

https://naayram.blogspot.com/2012/02/tigani-nu-romi.html

Gypsies, not Roma

https://www.dezvaluirea.ro/tiganii-au-confiscat-un-cimitir-din-iasi-purcei-la-protap-crestinii-n-au-fost-lasati-sa-si-depuna-mortii-foto/

Gypsies confiscated a cemetery in Iasi. Piglets on the spit, Christians were not allowed to lay their dead. Photo

NOTES

[1] https://asapteadimensiune.ro/de-ce-tiganii-nu-sunt-discriminati-in-romania.html/comment-page-1

Gypsies are not discriminated against in Romania

[2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1866/02/the-origin-of-the-gypsies/627983/

The Origin of the Gypsies; By George Washington Hosmer; February, 1886 Issue

 
• Category: Culture/Society, History • Tags: Gypsies 
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  1. LH says:

    There’s an explanation, why Gypsies were also called Bohemians. In 1417 and 1423 large groups of Gypsies traveled westwards through Bohemia. Royal office provided them with a documents, demanding their protection and all the help given on their way out of the country. These groups ended up in France, the documents, signed by Rex Bohemorum, have been preserved.

    • Replies: @Jett Rucker
  2. The Roma or the Romani people, in other countries outside Europe look a lot more oriental and there is no question whether their origin is in India or elsewhere – it is obvious that these people do come from India, both in their appearance and in their clothes and customs, and in their language there are similarities with other peoples of that region.

    Their DNA has been traced to the area of Kashmir. Then from Kashmir the Romani migrated to Persia, and later to other areas of the Middle East, and later to Europe. The oriental Romani people are called D’om and this word is of Hindu origin and refers to a specific cast, related to the untouchables. To be fair, it is not known for sure when it happened.

    However it is interesting to note that their culture has features, not much different from that of the Jews. For example, the Roma consider that their tradition, called Romanipen makes them different from all other people in the world. Outsiders, as well as those of the Roma origin who do not follow Romanipen are considered to be inferior.

    The rules of conduct are not applied to non-Romani people, and there is no punishment for crimes committed against them. All other nations and nationalities in the world are called Gadjo. There is no difference whether a gadjo is black or white – he does not follow Romanipen and his soul is therefore impure. He is not worth to be called a man.

    And the fact that traditional Jewish melodies are so similar to those of the Romani people is not a coincidence either. There used to be, and to certain extent there still is a significant Jewish population in Persian Empire, or on the territories that used to belong to it. For certain, the Roma might have adopted these views from Jews.

  3. @Here Be Dragon

    “The Roma or the Romani people, in other countries outside Europe look a lot more oriental and there is no question whether their origin is in India or elsewhere – it is obvious that these people do come from India, both in their appearance and in their clothes and customs, and in their language there are similarities with other peoples of that region. Their DNA has been traced to the area of Kashmir. Then from Kashmir the Romani migrated to Persia, and later to other areas of the Middle East, and later to Europe.”

    Your comments above are stated categorically as fact, but some observations are incorrect. You have quoted from an article somewhere the position that used to be considered “standard”, but most of that is in dispute.

    For one thing, it is not “obvious”, at least not to me or my European colleagues, that the Roma either come from India, look to be of Indian descent, or copy Indian clothes and customs. I am fully aware of the DNA studies but they do not conclusively prove any of the above points. And there exists NO record of a mass migration from India to Europe that can be connected to the Roma. This is all idle speculation.

    The number of Roma outside Europe is rather small, the largest concentration being in South America where the Spanish and Portuguese expelled these people hundreds of years ago. These do not “look Indian”.

    I do agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that there are many similarities to the (Khazar) Jews, in fundamental attitudes, as well as in their general history.

    Once again, I would caution against the reading of one article on the Internet and automatically assuming it to be the “definitive work”. The injection of uninformed personal opinion will only lead us astray. This is a complicated matter of much curiosity and interest, and should be approached solely from the point of view of looking for truth and understanding. It is not helpful to inject personal opinion and ideology into such a matter, at least not without a preface of “This is what I choose to believe.”

  4. You forgot to mention that the “Khazars” are actually Ashkenazi Jews. One of the fundamental lies of our time is that the current Jewish population is Hebrew in origin when they are actually Turkic. The Jews have zero connection to Palestine. One of the worst mistakes the goyim ever made was allowing the Jews to steal Palestine from its rightful owners. Arthur James Balfour has a lot to answer for.
    But that theft is typical of everything the Jews stand for. They are immoral thieves, cheats, murderers and liars who need to be expelled from ALL countries of European origin.
    The Jews/Khazars are almost exactly like the Gypsies in every way; they are incompatible with civilization and, in fact, are a horribly destructive force wherever they settle. They are responsible for the current destruction of Christian civilization; the most successful in history. Gone now.
    The Jews biggest current scam is to convince Whites to worship Negroes while, at the same time, weaponizing Negroes and other nonWhites against Whites.
    It’s time to wake up and push back hard. Extremely hard.

  5. Anonymous[384] • Disclaimer says:

    Firstly, how can an illiterate people be experts at forgery?

    Secondly, DNA evidence proves – without a shadow of doubt – an Indian origin of Gypsies.
    In fact, this has been known for centuries.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Rogue
    , @Dutch Boy
    , @Jakie
  6. Boo says:

    Gypsies are indeed from some part of India. One of the most famous movies about gypsies is called in English “Time of the gypsies” by Emir Kusturica, using amateur gypsy actors. I showed it to my Gujarati Indian friend and he managed to recognize a lot of words in Hindi from it, e.g. “love”. In one of the most memorable scenes from the movie, the Gypsies are shown releasing floating candles and flower wreaths on a river similar to Hindu traditions.
    They are culturally closely related to the dalits, the untouchables which are not even a caste in India, just ppl who are forbidden to drink from the same wells as the remaining castes, among other rules of behaviour the dalits are supposed to follow.
    The most likely path they’ve arrived in Europe is with the Turks during their 13-14 century migration west.

    • Agree: simple mind
    • Replies: @Libertarian66
    , @Alden
  7. @Larry Romanoff

    Well what is not in dispute. I did not quote a word from an article but of course I could have. And there are a number of researches I can reference. However I am not going to argue, and for clarification alone let me rephrase one thing. I said that in countries outside Europe the Roma look a lot more oriental and that there is no question – that is in those countries, whether their origin is in India or elsewhere, because it is obvious.

    There are hundreds of thousand Roma people in Russia, and it is popular among the Russians to refer in an ironic manner to Hindu people, calling them Roma – so much there is in common in the appearance of the two, including the clothes. Yet the DNA research is not something that we can argue about here, and I am not an academic. For me it is enough that if something looks like a duck then it must be a duck of some kind.

    [MORE]
    But here, a solid biological proof:

    Reconstructing the Population History of European Romani from Genome-wide Data
    https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)01260-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982212012602%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

    “The present study constitutes the most comprehensive survey available thus far on the genome-wide characterization and demographic history of the European Romani. Our data suggest that European Romani share a common genetic origin, which can be broadly ascribed to northwestern India.”

    And here is an opinion of a linguist:

    On the Indic Language and Origin of the Gypsies
    https://web.archive.org/web/20060929115310/http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/Research/Projects/romani/downloads/1/ruediger_translation.pdf

    “I therefore come to the conclusion that the Gypsies together with the Indians constitute one people. This sheds new light on their origin and their whole history, now that we are in a position to compare the linguistic evidence with all the other historical conditions and characteristics of the Gypsies, we find that they match and correspond entirely.”

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  8. people who are vain, shameless, shiftless, noisy, licentious, and violent

    I didn’t know US blacks were gypsies.

  9. Rahan says:

    There are many today who have indeed assimilated to one degree or another, who are fine and upstanding citizens, and who do not deserve the characterisations levied above.

    Take a walk right now on the central street of any South-East European town, and you’ll see at least one fifth of the denizens being obvious wogs whose parents or grandparents have assimilated into the culture. You’ll also see a subset of darkies nervously trying to assimilate in real-time, but unable to yet lose the sing-song gypsy accent.

    Until you’ve talked to a brownish brunet explaining to you excitedly and with total conviction “we Slavs this and that” you haven’t lived:D

    But yes, the ethnic core from whence the above splinter, is indeed a mobile source of chaos. It’s high time for a EE writer to do a Cimmerian adventure in which Amra becomes temporarily the war leader of some gypsy caravan.

    And now I suddenly remember the gypsy girl fight scene from Russia With Love. Gotta rewatch that film. For science.

    • Replies: @aandrews
  10. @Here Be Dragon

    I would be interested in your personal observations. Do the Gypsies in your country seem to be of Indian descent? Would the Gypsies you have met or seen, or know personally, fit this description?

  11. Lurker says:

    Gypsies in the British Isles seem to have undergone a degree of assimilation. Perhaps they were cut off for long enough in Britain and Ireland?

    When I first started seeing full-on Gypsies from Europe, after the Cold War ended, I was shocked at how alien they looked. Not European at all. I would definitely go for the Indian explanation.

    • Agree: Irish Savant
    • Thanks: Larry Romanoff
  12. Realist says:
    @RoatanBill

    I didn’t know US blacks were gypsies.

    They are…with one more attribute…they are, on average, more stupid than gypsies.

  13. @Larry Romanoff

    I watched a documentary concerning the low caste in India many years ago and one of their characteristics was to cripple orphan children in order to pimp them for the emotions foreigners would naturally feel to give them money.

    Aside from crippling their limbs, one of the favorite things to do to them was to blind them. I couldn’t believe such disgusting people existed, but the video evidence was clear with the pimps admitting it. That the gypsies also cripple their children for the pity money they could bring in offers a tenuous hint of a connection.

  14. @Larry Romanoff

    Yes, like I said. You might have seen them or not, but in the North of India people are not too dark, some of them are in fact rather light. Here are the Roma from Rajastan.

    To be fare I noticed that in Britain Roma look a bit different – a lot more assimilated. But in other places more or less similar, much alike. Here are the Russian Roma.

    And at least in Eastern Europe most of them maintain a caste system, like that of Hinduism except that they do not have Brahmins and warriors. The Roma from Sweden.

    So I guess their attitude toward the others might as well have its origin in Hinduism. There are a lot of similarities in Judaism and Hinduism. Chicken or the egg question.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  15. What was the official position of the NSDAP on Gypsies in Germany during their rule? Anyone?

  16. @RoatanBill

    “I watched a documentary concerning the low caste in India many years ago and one of their characteristics was to cripple orphan children in order to pimp them for the emotions foreigners would naturally feel to give them money.”

    Thank you for posting this. I had never heard of that practice outside the Gypsy world.

    There is evidence that some other races will easily sacrifice their “lesser” members though not in this fashion.

    • Replies: @Anon
  17. @Here Be Dragon

    Thank you for posting the photos. Much appreciated.

    However, what I was hoping for was a judgment based on your personal experience. However, from your approach in your comments, I assume you have never seen a Gypsy in real life. I’m not suggesting that’s a sin; merely that I was hoping for some real-life information.

    I am also assuming you have not been to India. Am I correct?

    In the photos you posted, many of the faces do not seem to indicate an Indian racial background, but rather Caucasian. Do you agree?

    You stated, “I noticed that in Britain Roma look a bit different – a lot more assimilated. ”

    Do you have evidence to support your assumption that the Caucasian appearance is due to “assimilation” rather than ethnic origin? That assertion is of much consequence. To follow that to the end, we could baldly claim that everyone who doesn’t look Indian has been cross-breeding, and that would clearly be fallacious.

    Could you please post the photo of the British Roma – those who look assimilated.

    You also stated, “And at least in Eastern Europe most of them maintain a caste system, like that of Hinduism …”

    I am quite familiar from personal experience with the Gypsies in Eastern Europe, and I have seen nothing to suggest the existence of a caste system like that of Hinduism. That seems a huge stretch to me. Can you provide any real-life references as evidence of such a thing? Or can you detail the sources of this assertion? It is important. We don’t need scholarly speculation or theorising, but real-life evidence.

    My thanks in advance.

  18. Biff says:

    When I was in Ukraine I got assaulted/mugged by a gang of gypsies. Pricks!

    • Replies: @Gym
  19. Biff says:
    @RoatanBill

    Here in Thailand it used to be very common for beggar pimps to go into Laos, or Cambodia and find land mine/UXO victims, and bring them back to tourist areas(the more blown-off limbs the better). About tens years ago the authorities outlawed the practice, but every once in a while you’ll see it happening.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  20. @Larry Romanoff

    When I was in Eastern Europe, the gypsies I saw looked Indian. They certainly didn’t look anything like the local slavs. It was surprising because Hollywood always depicts them as olive-skinned when they’re clearly South Asian

  21. @halfhearted

    Subsumed under “Asoziale” i.e. treated like any other work-shy
    habitual criminals.
    – In West Hungary they were forcibly settled under Maria Theresia but
    except for musicians and a few carpet merchants still hold fast to the old ways
    (read: slum); these look vaguely Balkanese and when looking for work
    usually identify as Greeks.
    – The Czechs put them up in the houses of the former Sudeten Germans,
    and the vibe is positively postapocalyptic (the beautiful Jugendstil housing only
    makes it worse); Whenever you stop you get the local version of squigee boys,
    only with a 4in. nail, and if you don´t pay say goodbye to your paint job.
    These look definitely un-European and are the purveyors of the “Czech triathlon”
    (= swim through the Moldava, run to Freistadt, steal a bike and ride home).
    – The shortest shrift goes to the Romanians: In crime reports across Europe
    gypsies are called “Romanians”, and the Romanians hate hate hate it.
    “Gypsy” and “csigan” are n-words, see (Jews are never mentioned as such either;
    a further commonality is that both have a single word for “not-us”- “gajo”
    vs. “goy”, exceedingly rare in ethnographic terms).

    – The Czechs may be assholes but they are more Germanic than the Prussians;
    “Asiatic”? [evil scientist´s laughter, long and hard]

  22. repugnant says:

    The one group that has been failed to be mentioned on who these people are would be the “Redman”. They’re all over the world. All continents, except Antarctica. And amazingly, they do not own land. North America, South America, the “Pikies”, the “Lapplanders”, the “Nenets” and “Evenkis”, the “Māori”, the “Aboriginals” in Australia. Although these peoples are stationary in the lands that they live in, they don’t own it outright. Just thought I’d point this out.

    • Replies: @Tomorrow We Live
  23. anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says:

    Simon Ager’s popular language-geek site Omniglot says this about the Gypsy language:

    Romani, or Romany, is an Indo-Aryan language spoken by about 5-6 million Roma people throughtout Europe and the USA … The language is closely related to the languages of northern India, particularly Punjabi

    My own experience of East European Romani as well as people from India, is that some Gypsies (far from all) do have strong south Asian Indian subcontinent appearance. Similar to Ashkenazic Jews, who range from quite ‘Jewish’ in appearance to blue-eyed Aryan.

    The Omniglot site above gives a view of Gypsy origins that seems credible:

    The Muslim invasions of the northern part of the Indian subcontinent around 1000 AD resulted in massive movements of populations, probably including the ancestors of the Roma, who are thought to have moved into Anatolia. In 1300, after the Mongolian invasion of Europe, the Roma moved west into Europe and took up a mainly nomadic lifestyle.

    The Romani are a major factor in the anti-migration sentiment of Eastern Europeans. The perception is that assimilation of some groups just doesn’t work, given how Romani have been in Europe for at least two-thirds of a millennium.

    • Thanks: Larry Romanoff
    • Replies: @Cassandra12345
  24. Anne Lid says:

    I thought it was fairly well established that gypsies came from India. The English gipsies/travellers I saw were different looking, and I think they are more like an offshoot of some local people, separated from the rest by lifestyle and marrying among themselves. In Hungary there are 3 groups of gipsies but I cannot make any difference between them. In Eastern Hungary you could not leave a bike outside the fence because anything not nailed down was filched. Little sheds on vineyards containing a large bottle, a few cups and cutlery, tools for the field and similar low value items had to have iron bars on the windows and paddocks on the door because these small things left for the convenience of the owner would be stolen. Not very nice people. Animal charities have pretty horrid stories, too. But I have never had to fear for my own physical safety.
    They rarely finish secondary school and the lack of money doesn’t stop them from starting families very early.
    Of course many have assimilated to varying degrees, I have had intermarried acquaintances and they were sweet and honest. I went to some gipsy classmates houses and the houses were clean inside and they readily shared food with me (even when they were between jobs and had little money).
    Connections to India are obvious, aside from physical features: women’s hair parted in the middle, mentioning Devla when wishing ill on someone, gaudy colours and flowers in the house and on women’s dresses, love of gold jewelry.

    Some years ago a beloved Romanian player for a Hungarian club was murdered by gipsies in a nightclub for no other reason that one of the gipsy career criminals partying was high and mistook him for someone. Of course they tried to besmirch the murdered man and not take any responsibility.
    Another well known case was a teacher driving and accidentally clipping a girl on the side of the road. He stopped the car to check on her. Some old woman started shouting “kill the Hungarian, for he killed the child!” Immediately they set on him and beat him to death. (In general they like to attack in packs.) His daughters, kids themselves, were threatened not to intervene. No one checked on the clipped girl who clambered up from the ground uninjured.
    Again they did not want to admit any responsibility and to this day call the lynching “a misunderstanding”.

    Now with the Ukraine crisis some gipsies also arrived as refugees. I know of some Hungarian gipsies who helped with the charity work and some had put up families in their own homes.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  25. The Scottish economist and philosopher Adam Smith was abducted by gypsies at age three. If not for the quick reaction of locals who went to rescue him we may have never had “The Wealth of Nations”.

    If you took most gypsies and placed them in India or Pakistan they would be indistinguishable from the locals, although many, especially those in Britain and France, look indistinguishable from whites.

    Magyars may not sound European but they definitely look European. There is nothing in their features that suggests a Mongol or some other Asian origin. While some Mongols may have settled in the region of present day Hungary I very much doubt that they exterminated and replaced the locals living there. Probably a small minority of Mongol conquerors blended with the majority Europeans who lived in the region.

    • Agree: Rev. Spooner
    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
    , @Wielgus
  26. Anon[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    The Khazar – Gypsy connection is fascinating. Worth noodling a bit.

    My recollection is there was a population of Gypsies in Kosovo and Metohija who were settled farmers. The UCK expelled them after the US bombing campaign in 1999.

    My experiences with Gypsies in the terrortories of Yugoslavia from the 1970s to today is mostly benign. They are small time junk handlers, sell cheap clothes at the farmer‘s markets, sell even cheaper electronics and Chinese junk at the lowest grade flea makets. Like stuff that’s remaindered 27 times. One notes that after the 1990s War to Destroy Yugoslavia most Gypsies seem to have been expelled from Slovenia and Croatia. The more ethnically tolerant areas of Yugoslavia seem to have more gypsies.

    My experiences with Gypsies in Romania doing lots of business in the 1990s and early 2000s were also mostly benign. My Romanian business colleagues absolutely despised the Gypsies though.

    Note – it’s my impression that many of the so-called Gypsies in Italy are in fact Albanians.

    Finally – In my usual haunts of Bavaria and Tirol one never sees gypsies. Perhaps it’s the through Germanic tax authorities or the obsessive Germanic business registration authorities that turns Gypsies away. One does see plenty of Levantine types hanging around train stations haggling and making deals around the low rent districts of the bigger cities – but nil Gypsies.

    • Replies: @Anon
  27. Anon[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    One more item – it would be illuminating to research how the Bzyantines treated the gypsies.

    • Replies: @anon
  28. @RoatanBill

    ‘I didn’t know US blacks were gypsies.’

    Great minds think alike. When I encountered Gypsies in Europe, I christened them ‘blacks with brains.’

    • LOL: Catdompanj
  29. Anonymous[176] • Disclaimer says:

    gypsies are the lost tribe of israel , they choose free life !!!!

    • LOL: Catdompanj
  30. What’s intriguing is that on the one hand, Turkey is listed as having a very large Gypsy population; larger than that of any European country, if I recall aright.

    On the other hand, though, Gypsies are a lot less evident in Turkey than they are in, say, Romania. Do the authorities force them out of the town centers?

    I asked a waiter about that in Cappadocia. Where are the Gypsies? He said something vague about them living by ‘hunting and gathering.’

    At a guess, it would seem that the Turks force them to stay well away.

    • Replies: @Mr. Grey
    , @Wielgus
  31. JR Foley says:
    @halfhearted

    Wipe them out. Einsatzgruppen A B C were in league for this and in Ukraine Stepan Bandera’s pals had pogroms against Jews Gypsies-Poles among others and today it is back again–in Ottawa. Chrystia Freeland is Stepan Bandera’s coming out celebration since her paternal grandfather was a Nazi sympathizer and Bandera’s public newspaper man —another link.

  32. Dumbo says:

    I thought it was widely known that gypsies, now called “Roma” to confuse them with Romanians or Romans, are basically a Dalit diaspora from India. However they are probably more mixed-up now.

  33. Amon says:

    Of course Gypsies would look European after centuries of abducting European children to use as slave labor, beggars and camp whores.

    They no doubt engaged in this practice to bred away their dark skin, ugly facial constructs and ragged hair to better fool the people of Europe into seeing them as equals.

  34. Rogue says:
    @Anonymous

    Firstly, how can an illiterate people be experts at forgery?

    Quite obviously a generalization. Though most are, not all are.

    Therefore, the literate among them do the forgeries.


  35. In that picture, the three younger female gypsies look distinctly northern Indian or Pakistani, and could be from Rajasthan, Punjab, or Sindh. The older woman who is sitting doesn’t, while the man looks like, again, someone from the north-western part of South Asia.

    That, and the garments of gypsy women, which are near identical to the Northern Indian skirt known as a lehnga, suggest some kind of Indic origin.

    Try typing in “little Punjabi girl lehnga” into Google search.It brings up images of little kids who look like they could be gypsy children.

    If one’s reference set for “Indians” is Southern Indian Dravidians, such as those who populate the IT industry in the United States, or eastern Indian Bengalis, then, of course, gypsies look nothing like that.

    • Agree: chris
  36. @Larry Romanoff

    I am quite familiar from personal experience with the Gypsies in Eastern Europe, and I have seen nothing to suggest the existence of a caste system like that of Hinduism.

    If European gypsies are, indeed, descended from a single caste-community from India that migrated, one would not expect to see caste stratification among gypsies.

  37. Malla says:

    Interesting video about Gypsies in the USSR.

    Life of the Roma People in the USSR. KGB Report About Soviet Gypsies #ussr #roma
    USHANKA SHOW

    Declassified Top Secret report from 1953 about the situation with Gypsy people in Ukraine. Soviet government struggles to settle Roma families and force them to be useful members of Soviet society.

    Guess what? Even the Soviets failed with them!!! It seems the Gypsies were big in crime in the USSR. This was kept secret in the Soviet media but the villagers around them knew what they did. So kind of like Western Commie media today, hiding the race of criminals to keep up their false ideology, like North Africans and black criminals in France are described as “youth”.

    Also the Soviet authorities in one are would pay Gypsies to leave their area and provide them free tickets to just leave.
    So Marxist Socialist systems run by a Communist Parties failed in civilizing the Gypsies or the Gypsies failed even in a Marxist Socialist system run by a Communist Party!! Or both failed.
    Mamma Mia. What chance of civilizing them in a democracy!!!

    • Thanks: Sarah
  38. Malla says:

    Gypsies are just a clannish people (like most third worlders which includes Jews) with a strong “us vs them” mentality living among Europeans who are more individualistic with more universal moral mentality. No wonder there is such a mis-match and Gypsies find naive Europeans easy pickings but also cry “Racism” to further their interests. Eastern Europeans have developed some resistance but the more nicer individualistic North Western Europeans further made stupid/naive via Cultural Marxism and super-guilt are richer pickings still.

    This is good documentary (by Bulgarian journalist Miroluba Benatova) about how cunning Gypsies from Bulgaria exploit good natured Swedes.


    Gypsy beggar gangs in Sweden – part 1

    These Gypsies make a lot of money by “begging” and taking advantage of good nature Swedes (Whites). One commentator John Francisco wrote
    “I recall a trip when I went out to breakfast with my sister before sight seeing. We watched a group of five women drive up in a big Mercedes, order the same breakfast we had, then start in on their day of begging at the same historic site where we started the day. When I passed without giving them money, they got physically pushy with me and started grabbing. I just pushed past and saw my sister through. They did not recognize us from the restaurant two tables away.”
    LOL. Typical Third Worlder genes.

    In part 3, see how the Gypsies bully an old Bulgarian village man, who calls them scumbags, bully him in his own country. It is as if they have more power in that area of Bulgaria than native Bulgarians.

    Typical Third World behaviour of Gypsies. You give them an inch, they sit on your head and try to take over. That is why employers in Third World countries often act as assholes to their employees. Why? Because they are exploitative assholes and would want to squeeze out as much as they can from their employees for little pay but if they do not do that, if the employer acts nice, his employees will sit on his head and squeeze him out and eat up his business. This is how it is in the Third World in general and always will be, this is deep in the DNA and soul. But foolish Whitey tries to civilize him with western education, and brings millions over to his own lands so that his country becomes Third World hellhole.
    Exploitative Third Worlders and naive Whiteys!!!

    • Agree: Dream
    • Thanks: Trinity, Jimmy le Blanc, Sarah
  39. Horus says:

    In the UK apparently there are Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    GRT for short.

    There’s supposed to be some sort of difference although its hard to tell. Gypsies and Roma tend to be swarthy and darker. Travellers tend to look northern European.

    They are universally disliked and its well known that crime spikes when they camp somewhere. They have a lot of unexplained wealth and can be seen in luxury caravans and motor homes.

    They possess a low level street cunning but are otherwise stupid and dysfunctional. They seem to get a pass on many things although it’s highly doubtful that’s down to them having friends in high places and more down to the judiciary being soft.

    • Thanks: Sarah
  40. tomo says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    I have lived in England and Canada where I met many Indians.
    The gypsies I have seen in Serbia, Germany etc – all looked exactly like Indians I know.

  41. I’ve had conversations with Europeans who lambast we Americans for our treatment of blacks but when I bring up Gypsies they protest, “No, you don’t understand.. they’re real bad and deserve it.”

    You just have to shake your head and walk away.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
  42. Anonymous[278] • Disclaimer says:

    One minor problem with fascism [1] of any sort (be sure to look at the footnote, under its definition the US practices economic fascism, the “mixed economy” installed in WW II) is that government controls all ownership. This power has invariably come to dominate the ostensible economic goals of fascism. That is, government takes what it wants, no matter the cost.
    The usual example would be the recent issuance of more US Dollars by the US Government. However, even more important is that a fascist government can give away, for example, your house and neighborhood to another group, as described by Romanoff [2]. “Another group” includes foreigners, and of course Pres. Biden & company are doing that right now (2022-04-27) on a large scale. The justification is that giving away your neighborhood maximizes total welfare (the “equity” argument), and that maximizing total welfare is the economic goal of the fascist government.

    This raises the question of whether this right and practice alone make fascism an illegitimate form of government. The common quotation: “Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.”[3] hints at this, but never identifies “big enough” with fascism.

    Also, bear in mind that “legitimacy” [4] in this context has nothing to do with married parents. It turns out to be a state of mind among the governed citizenry. If the governed citizenry considers a government to be illegitimate, than that suffices to make the government illegitimate. Even if the form of government fits Weber’s definition of a regulated bureaucracy, the governed citizenry can consider the government illegitimate by, say, believing that laws are/rules either ignored or are subject to esoteric reading [5, 6].

    So, the question becomes: is a fascist government legitimate today? Is it legitimate for the Roma to be given goods taken from non-Roma? If not, what is legitimate? If so, what are the limits of government takings?

    Figure it out. If you are a US citizen, the Federal government’s argument is that equity requires all that you have or will ever have, and it is being enforced at the US/Mexican border right now [7].

    1] https://fee.org/articles/economic-fascism/
    2] https://www.unz.com/lromanoff/a-brief-introduction-to-gypsies
    3] https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/government-big-enough-give-you-everything-you-wantspurious-quotation
    4] https://www.britannica.com/topic/legitimacy
    https://study.com/learn/lesson/legitimacy-government-overview-types.html
    5] esoteric reading :: Esoteric reading occurs when a small group (perhaps an elite) redefines a critical word and acts accordingly. Example: redefining “”populism” as “majority rules in an election”, redefining “democracy” as “the current government of the USA”, and then saying “Populism is a threat to democracy”.
    6] This holds for China also: https://crisiswatch.substack.com/p/the-coming-removal-of-the-mandate-7c2?s=r
    7] https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/eric-schmitt-remain-in-mexico-border-crisis/2022/04/26/id/1067379/

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  43. The travellers are vagabonds from the local population unlike the Roma/Gipsies/Tsigani. I live in Cambridge, UK, and when my company was renting an office in one of the science/business parks, the travellers would regularly – say, every cpl of months – occupy some of its parking lots for several days illegaly until the police showed up and kicked them out after many threats. I noticed that their kids would be in the caravans for the whole working day and not in school as mandated here which is very similar to the Roma behaviour.
    After departing, of course, the fuckers would leave massive piles of junk and shit lying down on the parking lots. The business park owners – St. John’s college from Cambridge University, one of the richest – tolerated this behaviour.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  44. chris says:

    Very interesting article, though I‘m not sure why the Indian origin story needs to be dismissed out of hand. Funnily enough, in the picture of the little Gypsy girl, the woman on the right looks almost prototypically Indian.

    My ‘favorite‘ Gypsy story was seeing a woman in her 30s nursing a 4-5 year old child on the steps of a church in Spain. A memorably revolting sight, especially as the child didn’t seem to want to continue doing it.

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
  45. Anonimko says:

    Good text Larry but you are not an expert in some areas which you touched in your writing. It is established that Gypsies originated in India and roughly in the 9th c.AC came to Europe. At that time (896AC) Magyars also came to Europe and settled among indigenous Serbs in today’s Hungary. Modern Hungarians have pretty much Serbian/Slavic genetics. The term ‘Slavic’ is fairly new, first appeared in the 7th c.AC and widely used in last couple hundreds of years. The first name for ‘proto-Slavics’ was ‘Serbs’ (meaning – ‘cousin, relative, member of the same race’). This original name was preserved by modern Serbs (and Lusitanian Serbs in Germany). Gypsies are NOT Slavics. Some Slavics and ALL western Europeans have Asian origins. About a half of Serbs are descendants of European indigenous people (Serbs can be considered as indigenous Europeans). Their language, several thousands of years old, is the oldest in Europe (older than Greek, Latin, Hebrew) and from this language evolved the Sanskrit and all future Slavic languages. Sanskrit (and Rg Veda) were brought by Aryans (i.e. ‘proto-Slavics’) to India in 2000BC. Apart from Serbs, the first new Slavic name appeared in the 8th c.AC (Russians) and other (including Czechs) much, much later.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  46. The author of this text has compiled much valuable stuff, but I’m, I must admit, very surprised that he insists on supposedly mysterious Gypsy origin. There is no mystery here.

    I’ve seen & interacted with some Gypsies all my life, and there is not a trace of doubt they’re of Indian origin. Virtually all of them, with some exceptions, look like you’ve fished them out of India yesterday. And linguistically, they’re Indian 100%. Both looks & languages.

    Culturally, they are found in areas of low-level occultism, similar to practice in most of India (without high esoterica of Hindu cultures, just folksy thievery & superstition).

    Also, I don’t know why the author credits them with some high mental capabilities.
    Gypsies are a pest. Their behavior is the same, from Spain to Russia.True, some of them succeed to break away from that parasitic culture & become normal, functioning persons (I know about one Roma physician, internist- a decent & smart guy). But most of them are thieves, burglars or beggars. And they are mentally-emotionally immature. An acquaintance of mine witnessed an exchange between two of them. It seemed it would end up in a fight. Yet, nothing.

    It was:

    A: You are talking to me?
    B: Yes, but you-to me?
    A: I am talking to you!
    B: And…?
    A: Yes, I am talking to you, but are you talking to me?
    B: Me?
    A: Yes, you. And I am talking to you, now!
    B: But I was talking to you!
    A: You were talking? To me?
    B: Yes, I was.
    A: But I was talking to you, too.
    ………………………..
    It lasted ca. 10 minutes & they went away. No info more, just: talking, me, you..
    Retarded is too generous a word.

    Among other things, I blame European idiots of high caliber (Victor Hugo, Pushkin, Liszt, Georges Bizet, Prosper Merimee, Garcia Lorca, Garcia Marquez, —) who romanticized this trash.They always live & move in groups- I’ve never seen a single Gypsy walking; they are thieves, and due to liberal legal policy, only a part of them ends up in jail (they mostly steal refuse and other things from factories); a female Czech writer had adopted two Roma boys (she was temporarily infertile, but later gave birth to a son). She wrote a memoir of desperation because those Roma kids- she treated them even better than her own son- turned to stealing, lying, alcohol & violence, while her son became a normal boy.

    Now, these adoptees are both in jail.So much about nature/nurture debate. The Call of the Wild.

    • Thanks: mark green, Sarah, Liza
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @chris
  47. pbridge says:

    Picked up a 1933 book, Raggle-Taggle, by Walter Starkie, a Dublin don with a fetish for the fiddle.
    The story of his adventures among Gypsies in Hungary and Roumania.
    An interesting and readable account.
    In Australia the few news items, pre PC are invariably negative and a warning to the unwary about getting ‘gyped.’

  48. A couple of thoroughly absorbing documentaries on the failed attempt at socially engineering the Roma in communist Bulgaria in the late C20th. They tell the story of what happened when the Communist Party decided to settle twenty odd thousand itinerant ‘gypsies’, building for them a housing complex (along the lines of Le Vele di Scampia in Naples). Spoiler Alert: they spoil it:

    Fascinating article, many thanks.

  49. Most pictures that I’ve seen of Gypsies, plus the ones that I’ve seen personally have a definite northwest Indian look. One Gypsy I met a few years ago looked like a South American drug dealer. The modern study of genetics should be able to solve their origins pretty quick. Many of their negative cultural characteristics have similarities to those of India, the dishonesty, love of money, bright colors, tacky jewelry, and total lack of regard for their fellow human beings. My bet is on Indian origins for them.

    • Thanks: Sarah
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  50. @Anonimko

    Another idiotic comment from Milojević- Lazić- Deretić “school” of idiocy.

    What makes Serbs so crazy & immensely irrational?

    I don’t know, I’ve had some of them in my high school days… but the hard-core of that people consists of lunatics.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-a-sense-of-historical-victimhood-is-good-among-blacks-but-bad-among-serbs/#comment-5264276

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/putin-demands-equity/#comment-5196900

    • Replies: @Anonimko
  51. Anonimko says:

    In the 1996 adaptation of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the character Esmeralda is a beautiful Gypsy girl. Some other movies – French: Cartouche (1962, with Jean Paul Belmondo and Claudia Cardinale) and Le Gitan (1975, with Alain Delon and Annie Girardot) and Serbian movies – The time of Gypsies (1998, Emir Kusturica) and a movie with a stupid title translation – I even met happy Gypsies (1968) which won the Golden Palm in Kan.

    Below is the map of attested Gypsy arrivals to Europe.

    For movie buffs, there is a short excerption (4.5 min) from the last-mentioned movie with a famous Gypsy song – Djelem, djelem sang by Olivera Katarina (here, only Indian looking girl is a real Gypsy, others are non-Gypsy actors).

  52. Malla says:

    In India they are called banjaras are a lower caste wandering people. Most normal Indians stay away because of the kind of dress they wear with mirrors and thus do not wash their cloths frequently and are thus considered smelly and dirty by other Indians. In my childhood, I considered them an interesting but very alien people. While playing cricket with my friends as kids, we would often see their convoys. We kids really did not know much about them, to be honest, and would just stare at the these mysterious people with camels, with curiosity.

    There is a popular Gypsy/ Banjara Indian song showing a Indian Gypsy/ Banjara camp.

    Do European Gypsies have similar music?
    One more interesting point, Gypsies in the Middle East and Egypt regularly engage in prostitution but those in Europe do not.

    • Thanks: Pheasant
    • Replies: @Anne Lid
    , @Mactoul
  53. bwuce wee says:

    “Gypsies do not assimilate”. assimilation is THE major factor in the maintanance of civilization. let that sink in. if a cultural group cannot assimilate, they will either maintain a PARASITIC, or a PREDATORY relationship to the host culture. let that sink in. this is why jews were expelled from hundreds of cities and countries and reviled: they refused to give up their culture (which served them well in their nomadic migrations- as with all migratory peoples throught our history- american indian, mongols, etc,). tinkers and travelers in the british isles are nomadic/migratory, but that doesn’t mean they are the same ethnic origin as the gypsies of europe. inability to assimilate creates problems in any community: police forces in america were first instituted in NYC because the irish(catholics) could not assimilate with the prevaling protestant culture. crime ensued and NYPD came into existence. irish were banned in the same manner as gypsies and jews were in europe. enter the italians- same deal: they did not assimilate and the ‘mafia’ was public enemy number one running theft rings, gambling, prostitution, extortion, blackmail, murder- i could go on, but you get the picture. if a culture cannot blend or assimilate, then there will be a clash, which will enevitably turn VIOLENT. now we have the INSTITUTION of multi-culturalism! this will ENSURE that crime is high! and this explains the current state of blacks in urban america: they have established, and continue to develop, a separate urban culture that will not, and cannot ever assimilate, insuring that there will be a continual ongoing culture war. jewish culture approves of multiculturalism because it gives them the excuse to maintain a separate culture. and politicians feed off this- it is an energy source. HOW SICK IS THAT?

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Alden
    , @bwuce wee
  54. EdwardM says:

    It seems that some subset of Gypsies has perfected the techniques of insinuating themselves into the channels of officialdom in such a manner as to more or less guarantee immunity from prosecution.

    This seems incongruous, at least outside Romania. Is it really the case? Or could it be that, like with blacks in America now, the liberal establishment sees Gypsies as oppressed, etc., so gives them immunity for that reason? Combined with possible practical difficulties — a perp has no identity, no home address, no one who will rat him out, etc.

    • Agree: Sarah
  55. My grandmother and her mothers side were apparently gypsies. I can say from my experience that my grandmother hid this and was ashamed of it. Her mother married an Irishman and they made very attempt to assimilate the children into an Irish-Catholic identity to the extent that I did not even understand she was a gypsy until I was in my 30s.

    My grandmother – the gypsy – made all sort of claims about her ancestry: Italian, Indian, Irish, Cherokee. They had aliases and the origins of these last names were always murky. My mom says that my grandmother lied about everything, and it is probably true.

    I know her mother (my great-grandmother) was a fortune teller her whole life. My grandmother had one of her crystal balls on the table. Anyway, my grandmother’s Irish father (likely an Irish Traveler) immigrated to the US after a murder charge. He owned a successful carnival (complete with a freakshow) and they traveled all over in wagons from town to town when she was young. The carnival took in all sorts of ner-do-well’s including my grandfather who was an illiterate of English extraction. My grandmother, who was dark complected, did go-go dancing and played drums when she was a teen and she was also a poker shark. My grandparents made their living through various grifts and cons; Smuggling, gambling, counter-fitting, antiques, used cars, junk dealing, watch and jewelry repair and later real estate.

    So she was a gypsy and my grandfather was a grifter, but what I’d like to emphasize is that my grandparents did everything possible to hide it, assimilate and “go straight” as they called it. I had no idea they were criminals when I was a kid. My mom said they tried to hide it from her as well. They paid for all their kids to attend private Catholic schools, actually my and I cousins did as well, and my mom married into an Irish Catholic family and went on to be totally straight, professional and successful.

    So what I would like to suggest is that perhaps one of the reasons that gypsies are hard to pin down as an ethnic, racial or even linguistic group, is because that they behave more as a class than a nation (for example they took in my English grandfather and various freaks into the carnival) and thus may be a loosely-organized Lumpenproletariat or mafia, with regional tribal characteristics, rather than the other way around. So – at least from my perspective – it may be a Chicken or Egg situation.

    Interesting article. Thanks.

    • Thanks: Pheasant, Calvin Hobbes, chris
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Pheasant
  56. @JR Foley

    Your Chrystia Freeland answers to Klaus Schwab, who is as Jewish as Passover. Their ancestors might have had dealings with the National Socialists in Germany out of necessity or survival, but didn’t share the ethos of them. The National Socialists in Germany were definitely pro-white and most of all pro-German, the WEF cult is all about extinguishing the white race.

  57. @Humbert Humbert

    The British laws on squatting are, for historical reasons, extremely lenient;
    not so on the continent, where they are just not enforced (the “race card”).

  58. Trinity says:

    Does Cher have Gypsy blood?

    Cue: Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves by Cher

    • Replies: @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    , @S
  59. Malla says:
    @Joe Paluka

    I will tell you one more reason, why I think they are South Asian origin. I was watching a video about illegal immigrants from the Punjab/Haryana states of India (North West India in general) making it in the West and making it big there and sending money back home and building big bunglow type houses in their villages. And one more villages of Gypsies from Romania making a lot of money in western Europe and their big bosses making big mansion houses in their Gypsy villages in Romania. What was interesting was the tacky designs and the enormous similarities in the designs of houses in both cases. Rich Gypsies and Rich North West Indians, money made from the West, making very similar houses. DNA matters, even after millennia!!!!

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  60. @chris

    In fairness that’s probably more of a crazy white lady thing.

    • LOL: chris
  61. Trinity says:

    Gypsies have more in common with Jews/Khazars than Africans in America. Khazars/Jews are nothing more than glorified Gypsies.

    • Agree: Pheasant
  62. Pheasant says:
    @Lurker

    Irish travellers gypsies live a very similar lifestyle but are completely different genetically. They are descended from landless Irish peasants.

  63. @Trinity

    The quintessential gypsy documentary:

    • Thanks: Trinity
    • LOL: Skeptikal
    • Replies: @GenFranco
  64. Malla says:
    @ComradePuff

    So what I would like to suggest is that perhaps one of the reasons that gypsies are hard to pin down as an ethnic, racial or even linguistic group,

    I suspect, (unlike the Irish travelers), Gypsies are originally South Asian Banjaras/Doms from North West part of the Indian subcontinent, who migrated further North West wards due to some cataclysmic event (brutal Islamic raids on India perhaps) and with time picked up Middle Eastern and later European genes along the way. The timing of migration coincides with the Islamic invasions of India. There was kidnapping of local children bringing them us as Gypsies as well as they allowed some local criminal types to join in with them, earlier in the Middle East (Iranians, Turks, Arabs) and later in Europe.

  65. Gypsies are Khazars who remained stuck in prehistory.

  66. Malla says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Among other things, I blame European idiots of high caliber

    LOL Elite Europeans have an old bad habit of romanticizing and idealizing non Europeans (Gypsies, Jews, Saracens, Indians etc…) while Europeans get only hate and envy in return.
    One example is the romanticized character of the Jewess Rebecca, the daughter of Isaac of York, in Sir Walter Scott’s novel, Ivanhoe. European Christians romanticized Saladin but Middle Eastern Muslims never romanticized Richard the Lionheart!! People do not know this but many of the British in India were Indophiles, Red coat wearing East India Company Officers sat with Brahmans, who fooled them up and the Brits wrote high flatulent history of India. James Mill has covered this phenomenon in his book on India. The Nobel Savage craze of Rousseau is one more example in point. But after this European romantacization of non Whites, non whites and leftards scream that Europeans are supremacists!!! LOL.

    • Agree: Dream, Sarah
    • Thanks: Alden
  67. Pheasant says:
    @ComradePuff

    ‘My grandmother and her mothers side were apparently gypsies. I can say from my experience that my grandmother hid this and was ashamed of it. Her mother married an Irishman and they made very attempt to assimilate the children into an Irish-Catholic identity to the extent that I did not even understand she was a gypsy until I was in my 30s.

    My grandmother – the gypsy – made all sort of claims about her ancestry: Italian, Indian, Irish, Cherokee. They had aliases and the origins of these last names were always murky. My mom says that my grandmother lied about everything, and it is probably true.

    I know her mother (my great-grandmother) was a fortune teller her whole life. My grandmother had one of her crystal balls on the table. Anyway, my grandmother’s Irish father (likely an Irish Traveler) immigrated to the US after a murder charge. He owned a successful carnival (complete with a freakshow) and they traveled all over in wagons from town to town when she was young. The carnival took in all sorts of ner-do-well’s including my grandfather who was an illiterate of English extraction. My grandmother, who was dark complected, did go-go dancing and played drums when she was a teen and she was also a poker shark. My grandparents made their living through various grifts and cons; Smuggling, gambling, counter-fitting, antiques, used cars, junk dealing, watch and jewelry repair and later real estate.

    So she was a gypsy and my grandfather was a grifter, but what I’d like to emphasize is that my grandparents did everything possible to hide it, assimilate and “go straight” as they called it. I had no idea they were criminals when I was a kid. My mom said they tried to hide it from her as well. They paid for all their kids to attend private Catholic schools, actually my and I cousins did as well, and my mom married into an Irish Catholic family and went on to be totally straight, professional and successful.

    So what I would like to suggest is that perhaps one of the reasons that gypsies are hard to pin down as an ethnic, racial or even linguistic group, is because that they behave more as a class than a nation (for example they took in my English grandfather and various freaks into the carnival) and thus may be a loosely-organized Lumpenproletariat or mafia, with regional tribal characteristics, rather than the other way around. So – at least from my perspective – it may be a Chicken or Egg situation.

    Interesting article. Thanks.

    Commanderpuff.

    Incredible. Thank you.

  68. Anon[426] • Disclaimer says:

    My favourite Gypsy story is from Rome. When I travel overseas, my money and passport are in a money belt, under my shorts and under my T-shirt plus another shirt tucked in. In my front pocket is a decoy wallet with trash, some nickels and dimes I can throw while in the other pants pocket is 1/2 the money I need for the day. That pocket has a zip and Velcro. In my two shirt pockets are 1/4 of the money I will need for the day..

    Good luck trying to rip me off.

    Anyway, to the story. Up comes this swarthy guy with a sign that said he is “Deaf and Dumb”. I took out a \$10 Euro and told him I could only spare \$5 and would he give me change.

    He said “YES” !

    • LOL: Malla
  69. @Joe Paluka

    It’s done, and it’s a settled matter.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201

    Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

    https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/13/3/532/htm

    Are Roma People Descended from the Punjab Region of Pakistan: A Y-Chromosomal Perspective

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31389/

    Genetic studies of the Roma (Gypsies): a review

  70. Malla says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    It was:A: You are talking to me?
    B: Yes, but you-to me?
    ……..
    B: Yes, I was.
    A: But I was talking to you, too.

    LOL, this is exactly how South Asians fight on the street. A lot of verbal threatening, arguing, hairy chested machismo posing and chest thumping before getting physical, if at all.
    War Nerd/Gary Brecher covered this style of confrontation very well in his article on India Vs Pakistan
    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-fag-vs-fag-the-india-pakistan-phoney-war/
    WAR NERD: FAG VS. FAG: THE INDIA-PAKISTAN PHONEY WAR
    “I used to live next to a housefull of Pakistanis in Santa Ana. They were all brothers or cousins or something and ran this pirate cab company, and they fought non-stop — but I never saw a single punch thrown. It was this weird Pakistani style of fighting: they’d yell for hours before they escalated to slapping — weird downward slaps, like elephants hitting each other with their trunks. After a couple minutes of that, they’d each retreat about five yards and look around for automotive parts to throw. They’d keep throwing till they were tired, or till they accidentally hit one of the half-fixed taxis parked in the yard. That was the only thing that sobered them up: hurting a car. When they drew blood on each other they’d cheer, but if they broke a windshield they’d instantly stop fighting and run up to the car moaning and sobbing.

    The way those cabdrivers fought is the way India and Pakistan fight — maybe it’s something in the water there. It’s always low-intensity, low-risk skirmishing, like these “mortar duels” the networks keep reporting from Kashmir. Mortar duels are the perfect combat for cowards, because the mortar is a very high-trajectory weapon, so you can fire it over hills and never even see the enemy face-to-face.”
    No wonder South Asians tend to screw up in front of a serious European or East Asian Army or perform best under European officers leading them. During the colonial period, East India Company armies led by Britons, French or other European commanding officers, made up mostly of Indian soldiers but mixed with a percentage of European soldiers were regularly beating native Indian Armies 10 times their size. Native armies both Hindu or Islamic with cavalry, elephants, artillery etc. The Indian soldiers commanded by British officers did well against the Japanese in WW2, the Japanese whooped the Chinese in WW2, but the Indian soldiers under Indian officers got whooped by the Chinese later in the 1960s.

  71. Ole_ed says:

    ‘dishonesty, love of money, bright colors, tacky jewelry, and total lack of regard for their fellow human beings.’

    To us southern boys, those characteristics bring to mind ANOTHER GROUP.

  72. Malla says:
    @bwuce wee

    assimilation is THE major factor in the maintanance of civilization.

    Correction: Assimilation of the correct kind of people with correct characteristics and genes is the major factor for the further development of civilization. Assimilation with large number of wrong kind of humans, might drag down your civilization in the long term.

    • Agree: anonymouseperson
    • Replies: @bwuce wee
    , @bwuce wee
  73. Anon[176] • Disclaimer says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    I lived in India for 2.5 years c. 1970 and visited summer 1977. I saw mutilated toddlers and young children outside popular tourist areas, in Bombay and Calcutta. Often their legs or arms were cut off. They were positioned on a small flat dolly with wheels. A cup or bowl was placed on their chest for people to place donations. A healthy person stood by surreptiously keeping a close eye on the donations. Only one child at a time was displayed at strategic locations. The local Indians told me there were Beggar Kings who owned and controlled these unfortunate children. No one called them gypsies, though.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Skeptikal
  74. Dimitrie says:

    Gypsies:
    – all have an indian origin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)
    Also search: A newly discovered founder population: the Roma/Gypsies
    – at the original indian core, centuries of wandering and admixtures added diverse other populations; Many local vagrants (whites) or even high class ( boyars) have had gypsies concubines who bore children. Reverse there were some white (trash) women who run with gypsies. Until recently all the half-cast children remained in gypsy tribe. Plus, the rejected of any given society tend to blend in the gypsy milieu.
    – although in Eastern Europe gypsies look very indian. The ones who seems europene it’s simply because have more european ancestors (see above).
    – all vagrancy classes (independent of their ethnic origin) tend to have the same behavior: impure occupations, petite crime, dirty work, living for today etc. This is the reason why for example irish travelers (who have nothing ethnic in common with gypsies) may seem alike.

    It’s interesting that all european societies like the hindu one needs a pariah class.

  75. Why nothing positive about the Gypsies? They make a valuable contribution to music. Django Reinhardt, the greatest jazz guitarist of all time, was a Gypsy. The Gypsy Kings are great musicians and performers. Gypsies are prominent at all levels of the music and entertainment industry, from the most prestigious to local fiestas.

    Apparently the following were/are of Gypsy/Roma/Romany origin

    Michael Caine (1933)
    Charlie Chaplin (1889-1977)
    Yul Brynner (1920-1985)
    Elvis Prisley (1935-1977)
    Bob Hoskins (1942-2014)
    Pablo Picasso (1881-1973)
    Rita Hayworth (1918-1987)

    http://mladiromi.me/eng/zanimljivosti/147-famous-celebrities-of-romani-origin

    Some more

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

    • Agree: Sollipsist
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Sollipsist
    , @Wielgus
  76. Isabella Fonseca, a Columbia University alumni and most likely a Jewess, wrote a sympathetic book about Gypsies called “Bury Me Standing”.

    My personal take on the Gypsies is (I did have neighbors many years ago named Johnsons… the man looked like a Puerto Rican and the wife looked like a Swede and their three children had blonde hair and blue eyes and all of them spoke Romani) that they may have originated from the Sindh, the Punjab or Kashmir in the Indian Subcontinent but over the centuries their blood, along with the language have been mixed so much with the Europeans that they form a group unto themselves, thus neither Indian nor white but certainly Caucasian.

    Lastly, stealing chickens, horses and cars isn’t the same as stealing billions, nay, trillions from moronic taxpayers who can’t get heads out of their arse and who insist upon castigating nomads while tolerating real con artists. One gets what one deserves!

  77. The author seems to dismiss the linguistic connection between Romani and the languages of India, but there is no serious dispute that Romani is related to Hindi and other Indo-Aryan languages, as the similarities in vocabulary and grammar are manifold and pervasive. That, along with the swarthy looks of the Gypsies, certainly points to an origin in India, albeit with infusions of outside blood, most likely from child stealing.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  78. My grandfather told me a story of how gypsies set up camp over the hill from the farm back in the turn of the 19-20th century. My great grandfather then had to set some bells to ring if any of the doors or gates to the barn were opened up in the night. Grandpop also use to say Gypsies were from Hungary. No clue how he came to that idea except we did have a huge influx of Hungarians to the local town prior to WW1. The Basques have a un European language as well. I have read the Basques verbal history claim their roots to be from Atlantis. Be quite interesting and cool if both the Hungarians and Gypsies are from ancient unknown peoples.

    As for how the Gypsies get a pass for their behavior, seems we have a age old elite problem. Seem the psychopaths’ and sociopaths rise to the top in the European systems. Creeps need facilitators. Gypsies would fit that bill.

    • Replies: @Carlo
    , @Anon
    , @Lazoudimazmuzoog
  79. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Even in the Middle East. Middle Easterner Belly Dancing originated among the Gypsies. The first belly dancers were a group of traveling dancers known as the ghawazee. These women were Domaris (Indian Dom origins) gypsies of Egypt in the 18th century, and were banished from Cairo during the 1830s, but went on to perform in Upper Egypt and later in the Middle East and Europe.

    In 1834, the ghawazi were banished from Cairo to Upper Egypt by Muhammad Ali because of their low-class dancing. Beginning in the first half of the 19th century, descriptions and depictions of ghawazi dancers became famous in European Orientalism, and the style was described as danse de ventre or belly-dance from the 1860s.

    The first Ghawazis performed unveiled in the streets. Rapid hip movement and use of brass finger cymbals/hand castanets characterized their dance. Musicians of their tribe usually accompanied them in their dance. The Ghawazi performed in the court of a house, or in the street, before the door, on certain occasions of festivity in the harem. They were never admitted into a respectable harem, but were frequently hired to entertain a party of men in the house of some rake. Both women and men enjoyed their entertainment. However, many people who were more religious, or of the higher classes, disapproved of them.

    Many people liked the dancing of the Ghawazi, but felt it was improper because of its being danced by women who should not expose themselves in this manner. Because of this, there was a small number of young male performers called Khawals. The Khawals were Egyptian male traditional dancers who impersonated the women of the Ghawazi and their dance. They were known to impersonate every aspect of the women including their dance and use of castanets.

    And lets not forget the Gypsy Kings

  80. @Anon

    There is a similar scene in “Slumdog Millionaire”

  81. Treg says:

    Those who love snakes….

  82. There is something to Gypsies & virginity …

    • Thanks: Sarah
    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  83. Carlo says:
    @Old and Grumpy

    Basque is an isolated language, which has no relation to other known languages. Probably there was a family of languages spoken in the Iberian peninsula, before Roman conquest that imposed Latin over most of it.
    Hungary and Romani are not isolated languages, have known relatives and their linguistic history is known. The first belongs to the Uralic family, related to Finn and Estonian. The second belongs to the Indo-European family, Indo-Iranian branch.

  84. Malla says:

    Iranians see Gypsies, called ‘kolis’ as poor fortune tellers. Most Iranian gypsies live in the slums of south Tehran in narrow, twisting alleys. Every morning they travel to the affluent districts of northern Tehran where they clean car windscreens, sell an assortment of junk and oddities: chewing gum, flowers, fortune poems and nylon socks or simply beg.
    In Iran, they are not included in any official statistics simply because they have no permanent place of residence. They are denied education because they have no identity card. They die in their single-room shabby houses- if they can be called houses- as a result of very simple diseases because they are deprived of healthcare facilities. Most of them have a chance to learn only one skill and that is how to beg people for money, food…, although now a days their old tricks no longer win the empathy of average Iranians. Traditionally, the Kolis (Iranian Gypsies) used to make metallic or wooden tools such as sickles, sieves, scissors, tripods, etc which were used by farmers or nomads, and sometimes musical tools like Daf. They used to walk around, knock the doors and sell their stuffs. However, these days their stuff have few customers and they didn’t try to make new tools. They also didn’t try to change their lifestyle and their jobs. They don’t often marry with people outside of their community. They usually have many children and don’t send them to schools. They were not traditionally farmers or land owners, but they also didn’t try to buy an agricultural land to begin farming. Some of them may live in tents. They don’t even try to work as a labour, as if they are lazy.

    Iranian Gypsies/ Kolis in Tehran metro sitting on the floor.
    They tend to wear ethnic clothes which makes them easily distinguishable with average Tehrani person who wears regular modern clothes.

  85. Mefobills says:
    @Anonymous

    One minor problem with fascism [1] of any sort (be sure to look at the footnote, under its definition the US practices economic fascism, the “mixed economy” installed in WW II) is that government controls all ownership.

    The U.S. practices Corporatism, not Fascism. Corporations, and a hidden creditor elite pull the strings. Politicians are mere puppets doing the bidding of their donor class.

    Mixed economy was not installed in WW2. The Colonial Period invented Industrial Capitalism, which is a form of mixed economy, where the State issues state credit into the commons and industry. The revolutionary war and “Hamilton’s” American System of Economy were “Mixed.” Hamilton’s report on manufacturers notes how much “American Credit” from the first bank was flowing in industrial and farming sectors.

    Here is Mussolini on Fascism, where he defines it as something like a Guild System:

    https://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

    But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State.

    Obviously, Roma would not cooperate and labor in a guild structure, and hence would not be able to integrate. They also would not form a farming culture, which is the same complaint that the Tsar’s had about Jews, as described by Solzhenitsyn in his book 200 years together.

    In other words, neither Jews nor Gypsies want to work as honest labor, but instead want to act as a parasite. Of the two parasites, Jews are far WORSE than Roma.

    Jews operate in the monetary sphere, taking usury, rents and unearned income. Since money is the blood stream of a country, Jews become nation wreckers. Gypsies are only a pain in the ass, and are not a mortal threat.

    One parasite only takes a little energy from the host, the other attacks the nervous and reproductive system and leads a nation’s people off the cliff.

    • Disagree: Sarah
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @bwuce wee
  86. The solution is simple. When the Roma are begging because “they are hungry” give them cupcakes laced with rat poison. I doubt they keep written records of who “donates” what to them, so it would be untraceable. Eventually, after a certain amount of collateral damage, they would all return to Romania, where an area should be roped off for them to stay inside.

    • Replies: @j1
  87. The heavyweight champion of the boxing world Tyson Fury is a gypsie, a traveler, a white Christian man of power. Amazing!

  88. Jews have been described as gypsies with brains!

  89. Dutch Boy says:
    @Anonymous

    Whatever their ultimate origin, they have been in Europe for hundreds of years and have doubtless acquired a reasonable amount of European DNA during that time (remember all the stories about Gypsies kidnapping children). A few years ago there was a story from Greece about the Greek police arresting some Gypsies on suspicion of kidnapping a couple of fair-haired children found in their company. It turned out that these children were indeed their own biological children (fair hair being exceedingly rare in India). Similarly, Gypsies have also incorporated numerous non-Romani words from European languages in their vocabulary.

  90. Gypsies are clearly not European, if some random Gyp is paler than the average, its probable his mother was working as a prostitute. a trick baby, nothing more

    Then of course

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/italians-search-for-irish-woman-s-baby-1.1139554

    Interesting that both the Jews and Gyps both claim to have roots in Egypt, and in both cases it would seem to be pure BS

    White people are the worlds biggest suckers

    • Agree: Trinity
  91. bwuce wee says:
    @Malla

    you make a comment, NOT a correction. important difference. my statements concern assimilation of different cultures into an existing FUNCTIONAL society. the question of ‘bad habits and bad genes’- that is an argument between ‘nature vs nurture’ which is irrelevant to the question of the conscious choice of an individual to assimilate into his/her adopted culture. my observations posits that multi-culturalism can only destroy a community, rather than enhance it as it is politically presented. i might point you to previous comments froma posted who exp,aims that he family did successfully assimilate, and only then did she discover that her ancestors were con artists. her story proves my point and disproves your comment (again, NOT a correction) about bad genes. there are billions of genes in each persons DNA, mostly dormant, meanoing each one of os likely has some of the same bad genes. that is what free will is, we choose to be civilized or uncivilized. it is always a choice, and there IS always a choice. there is no ‘the devil made me do it’ or ‘ i had no choice, i had to pick their pocket’, as you suggest.

    • Replies: @Malla
  92. AndrewR says:
    @Biff

    That’s better than doing the maiming themselves. Absolutely subhuman behavior.

  93. bwuce wee says:
    @Malla

    and further- i did NOT say ‘the development of civilization’. i said ‘the maintanence of civilization’. big difference. and you cannot attempt to win a debate btyputting your words in somone else’s mouth and then replying to yourself.

  94. aandrews says:
    @Rahan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martine_Beswick#Film_career

    “I was a very nice girl but Aliza was a cow. We had terrible clashes and I was disgusted with her. I had a lot of anger inside of me so that [fight] scene was a perfect way to work it out. We rehearsed the fight for three weeks but when we shot it, Aliza was really fighting. Everyone encouraged me to fight back, so I did. We got into a real scrapping match.” — Martine Beswick[8]

    • Thanks: Pop Warner
    • Replies: @Rahan
  95. Dutch Boy says:
    @Swaytonious

    My late aunt used to be subjected to criticism by one of our Dutch relatives about American racism. She discovered that he had moved from his apartment because some Surinamers had moved next door. When she confronted him about this, he protested that he was forced to move because the Surinamers kept chickens in the apartment.

  96. 3g4me says:

    For all Mr. Romanoff’s travels and professional credentials, I cannot agree with most of his conclusions regarding the genetic origin of gypsies. The fact that some subset of gypsies possess more European coloring and physiognomy merely reflects centuries of limited interbreeding (same as Jews with fairer coloring). Whether that interbreeding was due to abduction of European children, rape, mutual consent, etc. is open to debate. The genetic roots of the gypsies have been settled by DNA studies, so far as I have read, and this tracks with my personal experience.

    My first experience with large numbers of Pakistanis and Indians was in the UK – and while this was decades ago, they were already taking over whole towns. Their appearance was quite distinct from the native Englishmen. People always seem to want to muddy the waters by bringing up the Irish Travelers, who may be itinerant and criminally-minded like gypsies, but with whom there appears to be no genetic link.

    I do not recall ever seeing a gypsy in the Soviet Union. Nor even an Indian – there were a few African students, but minimal overall presence of other races. There were Indians in Jamaica – and they seemed very like those I encountered in England – coloring, physiognomy, verbal affects, and behavior (less than honest and eternally argumentative). Up to this point, I never met anyone who specifically identified or was referred to as a “gypsy.”

    During my years in Bulgaria I saw and dealt with a large number of gypsies. These people were unmistakably distinct from the locals. Native Bulgarians may be fairer slavs or darker (possibly due to Turkish admixture due to centuries of occupation), but they are still obviously European (mixture of West and East). The gypsies were highly reminiscent of the subcontinentals in England in racial appearance and dress, although there was still a distinct difference that is difficult to quantify – perhaps more oriental appearing? Just a somewhat different cast of facial features, but there was a visibly obvious racial connection. However, whereas in England the Pakistanis and Indians were generally small shop owners, the Bulgarian gypsies were itinerants and generally beggars and thieves. A black American embassy family adopted a gypsy boy, determining his appearance wasn’t too racially different from their own. Every time he visited prior to his final adoption, he had to be deloused.

    Now my north DFW suburb has been blessed with not merely tens of thousands of Indian and Pakistani natives, all performing work that White Americans apparently will not do, but also gypsies as well. Ten years ago or so, the first gypsies I saw were quickly deterred from their begging by police and store owners. Most local Whites appeared confused by their appearance – again highly similar to the other subcontinentals but I was immediately able to identify them as gypsies. And when I referred to them by the derogatory Bulgarian term “tsiganee,” they immediately dropped the pathetic begging mien and became angry and confrontational. They knew exactly what I was referring to – I doubt the H1B immigrants would have been familiar with the term.

    Now there are again gypsies begging at the intersections, often with children in tow. The local police appear to be uninterested in removing them, and I no longer retain any feelings of community interest or affinity, nor any desire for any interaction with city officials or police, so I make no calls nor public protests. These are distinctly sub-continental appearing people – none have any southern European features or coloring. The local Whites are still uncertain of what they are, but there is no doubt in my mind. And they still react with fury when referred to as gypsies.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @niceland
  97. I seem to have begun a minor war on the topic of the origin of Gypsies. Perhaps a good thing, because the subject may not be so clear as we imagine, in spite of the academic imprimatur put onto an Indian origin.

    I have nearly 1,000 photos in my files on Gypsies, and my summary from looking thorough them would be roughly as follows: perhaps 30% appear to me to be “most likely or definitely” of Indian origin. This is obviously not a scientific evaluation, but still. At the other end, there is a rather larger percentage, maybe 35% or even 40% that seem to be “definitely” white-skinned Caucasian. There are others in the middle who are not easy to categorise; some look ‘swarthy’, and could be anything from Greek to Mongol to Magyar.

    However, the surprise to me in the above ‘Caucasian’ appearance is not the percentage but the fact that it exists at all. If these people have all descended from a group in India, why do we have blue-eyed Swedes in here? And why does a DNA study tell me a blue-eyed Swede is really an Indian? We cannot tell ourselves that anyone who doesn’t look 100% Indian was just cross-breeding a lot.

    Moreover, we have new categories which may be helping to mask the real issues: We have Roma, Gypsy, and Traveler. Does this mean we have three distinct groups with three distinct origins? If so, why would they all behave in the same way and hold similar values?

    The differences appear so large to me that it seems unreasonable to assume that some groups “assimilated” more than others and thus have lost their Indian features. It may be that we are dealing with several very different races of people with different origins. I don’t know that, but adding up the known facts does not at all produce a clear picture.

    I am attaching a few photos here. Do these seem of Indian extraction?

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/refugee-gypsy-girls-at-a-camp-outside-of-rome-their-temporary-home-as-picture-id635936645

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/refugee-gypsy-girls-at-a-camp-outside-of-rome-their-temporary-home-as-picture-id635936645?s=594×594

  98. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mefobills

    OK, let’s suppose that all your corrections are, indeed, correct (as corrections should be). I regard them as merely plausible, but right now I’m not interested enough to discuss your corrections. This does not answer the fundamental question I raised.

    The fundamental question I want answered is whether a government/business partnership that claims control of all property in a country is legitimate in the sense that a majority of the population will follow the laws and rules of that country when these laws and rules cannot be enforced. Please note that the lack of enforcement is a physical necessity in that there just aren’t (and can’t be) enough police to enforce laws. The usual example of inability to enforce important laws without legitimacy was the difference in tax law compliance between countries of different religious faiths [1].

    The current Western governments appear to regard themselves as the owners of all property, able to reassign property to whoever they designate. The several million foreigners who are projected to enter the US over the next 12 months will be awarded the property of citizens. This is contrary to the spirit of the Takings clause [2], although not the judicial interpretation of the Takings clause.

    To raise a perhaps equally important point, did the importation of tax farm populations substitute for the effort required to make US cities competitive? Did the attempt at a corporate/governmental mix (to use a description consistent with your corrections) actually preclude the sort of adaptation that has made some formerly Third World cities successful? Consider the sort of stasis that resulted from the 1930s attempts at a corporate/government mix [3], but also consider Singapore and China [4].

    So: Are such governments legitimate, or not? What’s your answer?

    1] See Table 4.1, 1999-2010 figures, Steinmo, The Leap of Faith: The Fiscal Foundations of Successful Government in Europe and America, 2018. Print ISBN-13: 978019879681 . https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/9780198796817.001.0001/oso-9780198796817-chapter-4

    2] https://www.heritage.org/constitution/amendments/5/essays/151/takings-clause
    Notice that the issue of “income redistribution” is not considered part of the Taking clause, nor is the decline in real estate values when foreign groups are imported by government and proceed to drive out the previous residents. These “takings” are considered to be a governmental right, even a duty, in 2022.

    3] https://fee.org/articles/economic-fascism/

    4] Of course, one can say that both Singapore and China have not been successful for very long, and that both are in their first or second “revolutionary” generations. Typically one party rule fails in the third or fourth generation, the usual examples being the decay of the Chinese Imperial dynasties, and a less common example being the replacement of one form of Roman Imperial government by another (Republican Rome -> Diocletian Rome -> the various barbarian Emperors/dynasties).

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  99. @Larry Romanoff

    I can show you pictures of Irish ‘gypsies’ but how do I insert an image into a comment on Unz?

  100. Jiminy says:

    It’s funny that as I started reading this I was thinking how similar negroes and jews are to gypsies. Gypos almost seem to be an amalgamation of the two. And clearly I wasn’t the only one to think that. It was a good read though.
    Before political correctness there was an English tv comedy ,”A league of gentlemen” , that had a character called Papa Lazarou. He was their take on an untrustworthy gypsy. Obviously totally unacceptable in these woke times. But still good to watch. The videos are still on the Internet.

  101. Malla says:
    @bwuce wee

    I am sorry for any mistakes.

    that is what free will is, we choose to be civilized or uncivilized.

    Very few of the “uncivilized” exercise this will. DNA matters, there will be exceptional individuals who can be assimilated if you want but for the majority, it will not work. Best of luck with trying.

    • Agree: Trinity
    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  102. chris says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Hahaha, very funny exchange!
    Maybe they were just trying to outdo each other in their Taxi Driver imitations is Denero

  103. @Irish Savant

    “I can show you pictures of Irish ‘gypsies’ but how do I insert an image into a comment on Unz?”

    Ron tells me that you simply paste the URL into the message, and his system does the rest. It seems to work. I have done this only one time, so I am learning myself.

    • Replies: @Irish Savant
  104. Malla says:

    One of the worst gypsy clan in the balkans are the kalderashis, they are the Gypsies of Gypsies. Other Gypises find them too predatory and clannish for their tastes. LOL.
    Also Gypsies have their own leaders of Kings who solve all their problems, they truly are nations within nations.

    • Replies: @Spender_CGB
  105. Malla says:
    @Irish Savant

    Just type the address/url of the picture.

    • Thanks: Irish Savant
  106. S says:
    @Trinity

    Cher is half Armenian, unlike Mike Connors (star of Mannix) who was full blooded.

    Three of Cher’s number-one singles were “Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves”, “Half-Breed”, and “Dark Lady”.

    Seems to be something of a trend there with her music 🙂 .

    • Replies: @Trinity
  107. Anonymous[989] • Disclaimer says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Sorry, but autosomal DNA analysis is *an EXACT science*.
    Due to the enormous progress, in recent years, of computing power and electrophoresis, combined with statistical analysis, and the use of ancient samples, an autosomal DNA analysis of ancestral geographic components simply *cannot* be quibbled with.
    Also, Gypsies in Europe have a preponderance of y DNA markers and mtdna markets which are specific to the Indian subcontinent, and are never found amongst indigenous Europeans.

    Lastly, the language of Gypsies, ‘Romani’ has been classed by philologists as definitely an Indic language – derived, ultimately from Sanskrit – and having features only found in the Indian branch of IE languages. This was known centuries before DNA testing.

    • Agree: 3g4me, nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Larry Romanoff
  108. Anonymous[989] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Even one of the names by which Gypsies in Europe call themselves, ‘Sinti’, is more or less identical to ‘Sindhi’, that is a native of ‘Sindh’, Pakistan, where they originated from.

  109. Trinity says:
    @S

    Thanks for the 411.

    Time to cue up, “Half Breed” for the feather Indians. Me thinks Cher was singing about being part Cherokee in that one.

  110. Malla says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    We have already discussed that they have absorbed Middle Eastern and European genes along the way from India. They stole European and Iranian/Turkish kids in their history.
    Besides there are many heavily Caucasoid looking Indians too, but since original Gypos/banjaras are lower caste, they would look more Aboriginal than Caucasoid when they left India and even now banjaras/Indian gypos look more abo.

    BTW , what is the ethnicity of this woman, Larry? Guess

    Here’s the answer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divya_Dwivedi

    We cannot depend on looks in some cases, but on DNA.

  111. Skeptikal says:

    Surprising, no mention of

    Isobel Fonseca, Bury Me Standing,

    and

    Jan Yoors, The Gypsies

    (books)

    I also recommend the film Latcho Drom.

    Great music, great movie.

    Seems to accept the Northern India thesis (following the supposed route west taken by the Gypsies over the centuries but focusinng on local groups—always moving on after providing some wonderful music!), but whether you accept that or not, the filmed sequences are spectacular, especially the very first one. I think this is the very first one, in Rajasthan.

    • Replies: @Malla
  112. Skeptikal says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    I understand that there is—or used to be—a considerable Roma community in Queens, NY.

    https://www.scottmcdermott.com/Projects/Gypsies-of-Queens/thumbs

  113. @Malla

    Gypsies have their own leaders of Kings

    This man is the king of the Gypsies!!

    Good fighter too!

    • LOL: Malla
    • Replies: @Joe Paluka
  114. Skeptikal says:
    @Lurker

    Travelers I saw in County Mayo in the early 1970s were of different skin tones, but some were white-skinned (like, very white), with light green eyes and red hair. Perhaps the extremes were caused by endogamy.

    I saw them at the cattle market in Westport. While the men talked cattle flesh in the square, a gang of Traveler children roamed the streets. They cornered me, demanding money. Very aggressive and precocious, especially the red-haired ring leader. Little adults of 7-10 years old. I didn’t give them anything, although I kind of liked them. But I knew that if I gave in an inch to these raggamuffins I would never get free of them, and they might be emboldened to actually mob me physically and grab my wallet, clothes, etc.

    You would also see an occasional older red car driving around, and those were Travelers. They like the color red.

  115. Mefobills says:
    @Anonymous

    OK, let’s suppose that all your corrections are, indeed, correct (as corrections should be). I regard them as merely plausible, but right now I’m not interested enough to discuss your corrections.

    Actually, it is corporatocracy. Sorry all these words sound the same, but are not. This is why people don’t know what Fascism is. Just think of it as a guild system.

    In the U.S. the hierarchy is corporations over government. This is hidden rule by a creditor elite class. This form of government is illegitimate, as it does not ensure the general welfare, but insures the welfare of the donor/creditor class.

    The fundamental question I want answered is whether a government/business partnership that claims control of all property in a country is legitimate in the sense that a majority of the population will follow the laws and rules of that country when these laws and rules cannot be enforced.

    Control of all property is communism. That is a failed form of government because it is a pyramid system, pointing at a small group of kleptocrats. The people (general welfare) agree to give away some of their natural rights toward government, to transfer the right to use force. Without this limited transfer of force, then predators and thieves emerging from the population have free reign. BLM and Negroes rioting anybody?

    Please note that the lack of enforcement is a physical necessity in that there just aren’t (and can’t be) enough police to enforce laws. The usual example of inability to enforce important laws without legitimacy was the difference in tax law compliance between countries of different religious faiths

    Highly consensual, highly homogenous civilizations, which have high trust do not require a large police force, as the people police themselves. Your example only occurs in low trust civilizations… those civilizations that have a lot of competing in-groups. This is why it is a good idea to expel jews, or not immigrate muslims, or create a “tower of babble,” civilization. Putnam’s book, “Bowling Alone,” explains what social capital is. The U.S. used to be high trust, but now is low trust with low social capital.

    The current Western governments appear to regard themselves as the owners of all property, able to reassign property to whoever they designate. The several million foreigners who are projected to enter the US over the next 12 months will be awarded the property of citizens.

    The western governments are run from behind the scenes by finance capital. Finance capital wants to make gains wherever it can in the world, either by exporting jobs, or importing cheap labor. Corporatocracy is the opposite of Fascism. Fascism is a guild system which protects national labor.

    Fascism and national socialism were not ideological dead ends, they were not defeated in the battlefield of ideas. Communism imploded and Finance Capitalism is imploding, as they have shown they are unstable systems. Both NS and Fascisms were murdered in the crib by aggressive war from the democracies, um er, finance capital class maneuvering said democracies.

    The way to deal with property is to tax away the rental and site value. A “creditor class” will not agree to that, but instead will try to own property and untax themselves, while taxing production. For example, an income tax is taxing production.

    The takings clause is a dead letter. People are being taken for a ride now, with the tax system not taxing correctly.

    To raise a perhaps equally important point, did the importation of tax farm populations substitute for the effort required to make US cities competitive

    U.S. cities always try to untax themselves and tax the hinterlands. This is why the founding fathers came up with the electoral college. Large urban areas will vote monolithically, and their population numbers will weight the election such that the hinterlands will take a screw job. The country will then be run by an urban creditor elite and mob bosses telling the city laboring classes how to vote. The hinterlands will have no chance. The Yellow Vest movement in France is part of this dynamic. People were imported to have low labor costs, and this had no benefit to the existing people of the country.

    Did the attempt at a corporate/governmental mix (to use a description consistent with your corrections) actually preclude the sort of adaptation that has made some formerly Third World cities successful? Consider the sort of stasis that resulted from the 1930s attempts at a corporate/government mix [3], but also consider Singapore and China [4].

    Singapore and China are mixed economies with a form of authoritarian government – not corporate government, which looks out for the general welfare. China’s elites are out in the open, and they routinely slam corporate leaders heads against the wall. Jack Ma for example, got slammed. They are legitimate governments. However, they do not tax correctly and are having housing bubbles. China actually is using the American System of Economy, or an adaptation of it.

    There really is no adaptation, there is only one form of economy shown by history to work, and that is mixed economy/industrial capitalism, which was invented by the Colonials, and overturned by 1912. Germany had the temerity to adapt the American System, and was then attacked in WW1 and 2.

    The form of government doesn’t matter, as long as it delivers for the general welfare. Democracy is a failed form of government, as it acts as a beard for the creditor and finance classes.

    If you could go back in time and poll NS Germans, or the Fascist Italians, they were very happy with their life conditions.

    Notice that the issue of “income redistribution” is not considered part of the Taking clause, nor is the decline in real estate values when foreign groups are imported by government and proceed to drive out the previous residents. These “takings” are considered to be a governmental right, even a duty, in 2022.

    The only taxation that is legitimate is taxes on rents, unearned income, and site value. Taxing via tariffs is also legitimate, as it gives space for home-grown industry to develop, thus employing national labor. China uses all kinds of tariffs, to good effect. Tariffs are to be released if industry monopolizes. All of this stuff is well known by Classical Economics.

    Typically one party rule fails in the third or fourth generation, the usual examples being the decay of the Chinese Imperial dynasties, and a less common example being the replacement of one form of Roman Imperial government by another (Republican Rome -> Diocletian Rome -> the various barbarian Emperors/dynasties).

    Hungary’s constitutional kingdom lasted almost 1000 years. The god-kings of the near east balanced civilizations with periodic debt releases. They also were stable. All of your examples are civilizations that polarized due to creditor gains at the expense of the general welfare.

    Any sort of decay is due to a creditor class or oligarchy emerging, and these sort of people can be sociopaths, or have money sickness (the world is not enough).

    Right from the get-go, if the analysis does not include credit and debt, it is incomplete, and really useless analysis.

    In 1926 Mussolini nationalized the banks, because banksters were voting absentee stocks. They were swinging the stock market and taking sordid gain profits. A government that cannot protect its people from in-born (or imported) predators is illegitimate.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  116. Great article, and great comments. From an anthropological point of view, the subject is fascinating. In The Jewish Century, Yuri Slezkine mentions Gypsies among ethnic groups of wanderers who conceived their mode of existence “as divine punishment for an original transgression.” For example: “Of the many legends accounting for the Gypsy predicament, one claims that Adam and Eve were so fruitful that they decided to hide some of their children from God, who became angry and condemned the ones he could not see to eternal homelessness. Other explanations include punishment for incest or refusal of hospitality, but the most common one blames the Gypsies for forging the nails used to crucify Jesus” (The Jewish Century, Princeton UP, 2004, pp. 22-23). 
    There is an interesting parallel to be drawn with the biblical story of Cain, which most certainly is borrowed from the etiological legend of the Qenites. Cain and Qenites are the same words in the Bible, Qayin, and this word means “smith”. This would indicate that the Qenites believed themselves to be under a curse because of some murder by their eponymous ancestor. The descendants of Cain are described in Genesis 4:19–24 as nomads living in tents, inventors of ironwork, makers of metallic musical instruments, and marked by a magical protection making it perilous to attack them (according to a possible interpretation of the “mark of Cain” in Genesis 4:15). This may well fit the Qenites of Biblical times (whatever that means). I’ve read that tribes of copper smiths are attested in ancient Arabia; they were nomads because their skills were required over a very wide area. They were also often known for their mastery of the art of music. Finally, they were often the object of superstitious fears, because the art of metalworking is associated with magic.
    Where that gets really interesting is that some scholars (starting with Eduard Meyer in 1906) believe the Qenites to have been the first Yahweh worshippers, since Moses’s father-in-law, who initiated him into the cult of Yahweh is said to be a Qenite (Judges 1:16).
    The hypothesis that the origins of the Hebrews’ religion and self-identity is linked to a curse for an ancestral fratricide is intriguing. Since nomadism is deeply embedded in the Hebrews’ collective memory, should we then seek the secret source of the wandering of the Jewish people in a “Cain complex” dating back to a primordial fratricide, like Freud seeking the key to the human psyche in a universal Oedipus complex dating back to a primordial parricide (Totem and Taboo, 1913)?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Skeptikal
  117. @Irish Savant

    slide your image into https://postimages.org/fr/
    then copy the url given as “direct link” in your comment

    • Thanks: Mefobills, Irish Savant
    • Replies: @Irish Savant
  118. Anti-hate groups including the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, the Auschwitz Memorial and Hope Not Hate have condemned Jimmy Carr for his comments about the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community in his Netflix special.

    The show, called His Dark Material, was released on Christmas Day but received widespread attention on Friday after a clip was posted and shared online.

    Carr said: “When people talk about the Holocaust, they talk about the tragedy and horror of 6 million Jewish lives being lost to the Nazi war machine. But they never mention the thousands of Gypsies that were killed by the Nazis.

    “No one ever wants to talk about that, because no one ever wants to talk about the positives.”

    • LOL: 3g4me
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  119. @Bardon Kaldian

    Excellent contribution. Thank you.

  120. @Commentator Mike

    Mostly illiterate, and also a genius. Not interested in joining any team that would exclude this guy.

    • Replies: @Joe Paluka
  121. @Malla

    Well what’s her ethnicity? The link says she’s from Allahabad so some sort of Indian but what specific ethnicity? Maybe she had Arabic, Iranian or Turkish in her ancestry. There’s even Jews in that city of Allah.

    • Replies: @Malla
  122. Z-man says:

    Let’s go back to my culling post. Add 10 million Gypsies to the list.😈😆😈
    My Gypsy story:
    I was in Rome on the hill across from the Coliseum. It was August so it was hot. I left my family in the air conditioned car and I went with my son to get refreshments from the vendor at the top landing on the hill. I was wearing my cargo shorts with about 500 Euros in the pockets. On the lower landing as I was explaining the greatness of Rome to my son I noticed an old hag with a brood of little girls. They suddenly swarmed me and my spider sense clicked on as little hands went right into my pockets. In a move that would make Stan Lee and John Romita proud I spun around like a cobra and almost kicked one of the urchins in the face. Thankfully I didn’t or I might still be in a Roman jail today. They scattered and I checked my pockets. All was safe but where was a dapper dressed Carabinieri when you needed one?
    They were down the hill talking to some female tourists.

    • Replies: @Joe Paluka
  123. Kali should comment as she used to run with the travellers and must have met Gypsies/Romanies too. There are traditional gypsies and Irish travellers but there was an explosion of younger people faced with permanent unemployment and homelessness in the post Thatcher years who hit the road and joined the nomadic traveller communities and lifestyle.

  124. @Malla

    She’s evidently of Persian or Turkic extraction.

    And she’s got more space at Wikipedia than some real European philosophers of yore.

    • Replies: @Malla
  125. bwuce wee says:
    @Mefobills

    during WWII, the preeminent fascist regimes were italy and germany. these forms of government were characterized by corporations basically running the government. that was the definition of fascism: not authoritatrianism = fascism, not dictatorship = fascism, but corporations unduly influencing and exercising control over government. facismo es mi salvation was mussolini’s favorite song. so corporatism is not different from fascism- as you claim, corporatism is merely a modern rebranding of the same old song and dance of corporations controlling governments. this is exacxtly the form of government we have in the USA- big tech calling the shots, big oil calling the shots, big pharma calling the shots. no amount of excuses or rationalization, or intellectual gymnastics can disguise this FACT. i hope you were actually ignorant of this, because if you were aware of this, then you ARE a fascist apologist.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  126. @Here Be Dragon

    There’s an old legend that the gypsies originate with people or peoples who ran for their lives from Tamerlane.

    Another avenue of inquiry – can the fate of the Carthaginians be accounted for?

  127. bwuce wee says:
    @Malla

    when a person commits a crime, it is because they made a choice. that is free will. even if they were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time, they chose to be there. the very reason that prisons exist is that it so happens that with time and punishment, some see the error of their ways. that is the purpose of incarceration. it would be more safe and expedient to execute all criminals, however, CIVILIZATION allows for those who make the wrong choice to reflect on their mistakes. it has been successful in some instances. personally, i do not believe in incarceration (i believe the offender should pay monetary compensation for his/her transgressions), i prefer the death penalty. but i am not in charge, so my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. of course not everyone will choose to be assimilated, that is the dilemna of free will. i did not create free will, i am merely the messenger in this instance. DNA is the scapegoat in your scenario, but this idiocy is like saying there is a ‘gay gene and homosexuals cannot help it it is in their genes’. this theory has been disproven. the gene for psychopathology exists in everyone’s genetic background. but psychopaths are extremely intelligent, and that, to me, means they can and do make choices- so their crimes ARE crimes of free will. serial killers know they are criminals, otherwise they would not hide their tracks.

    • Replies: @Malla
  128. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    She is pure Brahmin Hindu from my state of UP. Her surname is Dwivedi which means scholars of two vedas. We even have Brahmins with surnames, Trivedis (Three vedas) and Chaturvedis (Four Vedas).

    • Replies: @Malla
  129. Malla says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    She’s evidently of Persian or Turkic extraction.

    Nope, she is pure top Brahmin Hindu from my state of UP, my ethnic group. Her surname is Dwivedi which means scholars of two vedas. We even have Brahmins with surnames, Trivedi (Three vedas) and Chaturvedi (Four Vedas).

    • Thanks: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Odyssey
  130. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Laurent Guyénot

    Since nomadism is deeply embedded in the Hebrews’ collective memory, should we then seek the secret source of the wandering of the Jewish people in a “Cain complex” dating back to a primordial fratricide, like Freud seeking the key to the human psyche in a universal Oedipus complex dating back to a primordial parricide (Totem and Taboo, 1913)?

    Here’s another explanation:

    It has been proposed that the Jewish religion/social form is heavily adapted to survive being conquered and then subject to attempted genocide. The Babylon exile is (as far as I know) the first recorded instance of such conquest and attempted genocide.
    It seems unlikely that Judaism should have been able to survive the Babylonian exile if that was Judaism’s first experience of resisting assimilation after being transplanted from their own social form to another social form. One could say the same about the Samaritans, who were the lower class/unskilled part of Judea, with no special skills, hence left in Judea by the Assyrians.
    If one assumes cultural borrowing, or even partial origin from the Qenites, one gets a more plausible explanation. The methods that the Qenites used to remain separate from their surrounding non-nomadic societies would then have been available to the Judeans, if only as legends, and could account for the remarkable and unique survival of both Jewish branches (Babylonian and Samaritan).

    I should add that the survival of Jewish society seems to be dependent on a strong belief in repeated attempts at genocide, and that (from what I saw back in the 60’s-70’s) assimilation tends to provoke the rabbinate to instill fear, even paranoia, into the Jewish young. While the attempt might fail in some or most of the Jewish young, it did take in enough cases to produce the current Jewish separatism.
    For that matter, I’ve seen enough cases in which attempts to assimilate failed utterly (as in Maugham’s “The Alien Corn”) to think that there is something to the idea that assimilating into surrounding society is fatal to those of Jewish ancestry. I suspect that the same would be true for those of Gypsy ancestry and, if BLM and various Asian ancestry political workers can be believed, to their ethnic groups as well.

    This is not the world of identical humans that I was promised back in the 1960s.

  131. @Anonimko

    Interesting. If their origins are in India, then it logically follows southeastern Europe would be their first point of arrival and Britain, Scandinavia and the Baltic areas their last. Which is just what your map shows. I am betting on Indian origin of some kind or another. The real issue with them is what an epic assimilation fail they are.

  132. Malla says:
    @Skeptikal

    Thanks. Gypsies in India seem more of Rajasthani origin than Punjabi by their costume and dance, Rajasthan, the Indian state in the North West, of desert and palaces.
    The most famous Rajasthani song (of Gypsy origin) is “Kaliyo Kood Padiyo Mela me“. I do not know the translation as I do not speak their language but I have heard this song a lot. Awesome song, Gypsy song of the Thar desert, enjoy!!!

    • Thanks: Skeptikal
  133. @Larry Romanoff

    Of course I have seen and met, and even interacted with Gypsies in real life. I have seen Gypsies in four different countries, and on all occasions I knew they were Gypsies as soon as I saw them. And yes I have not been to India, however I am fond of the Hindu culture and am interested in their religion, so I know a thing or two about it.

    I know that there is no definite Indian racial background, there are four main ethnic groups of various racial origin. The people in the North are different from those in the South; they speak different languages and their folklore is also different. The region where the genetic origin of the Gypsies was determined is colored in red.

    You can find a lot of photos on the internet. People in that region often have fair skin tone and sometimes green eyes, though more often their eyes are light brown. The facial features are pretty much similar to those of Persian or Armenian phenotype. The Gypsies I have seen in real life were somewhere in between the two main racial profiles.

    Southern Indians are dark-skinned. Apparently they are of that racial background you were referring to. However there are other groups in the north-east of the country where people look rather mongoloid, and in the north-west where they look more Caucasian. And we are talking about whole clusters of the population, tens of millions of people.

    The British Roma do not look like Gypsies to me, and I would not think they were Gypsies if I saw them. Regarding the reasons why they look so white I think it is the result of cross-breeding, mixed marriages and general assimilation. Apparently in England things went better for them, perhaps because they were separated from the rest.

    The Spanish Roma are assimilated real well too. That Flamenco culture we all know and love is the folklore of the Spanish Gypsies. And I have no idea whether they maintain a caste system in Britain and Spain or not, but in Eastern Europe they certainly do and this is common knowledge. They are organized in clans and every clan is run by a baron.

    [MORE]
    Gypsies in Bulgaria
    https://elenapaleolog.com/2020/07/12/%D1%86%D1%8B%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B2-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8/

    The Gypsy ethnic group is a society with a strict hierarchy. There are four main castes in Bulgaria: from the privileged to the poorest. Moving between cash desks, something like a “social elevator” is impossible and not allowed. Perhaps with one exception. When marrying a representative of a lower caste, the spouse loses his status and connection with the family and completely passes to the lower caste. Climbing up is absolutely impossible.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  134. @Z-man

    Dressing like a sloppy American tourist in Europe (cargo shorts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cthA22qL9AI), you’re asking to be fleeced by gypsies and any other group that comes along. Spend some money and buy decent clothes and look like a European, the gypsies will leave you alone.

    • Replies: @Z-man
  135. @Sollipsist

    Django Reinhart was not a genius by any means, he could pick up a guitar and play music. You sound like a white man I know who thinks all black musicians are geniuses and the black soul is imbued with magical musical powers.

    • Thanks: Irish Savant
    • Replies: @raga10
    , @Sollipsist
  136. CCG says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Hinduism’s attitudes towards non-Hindus (mlecchas) can be read here:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kala_pani_(taboo)

  137. @Spender_CGB

    Tyson Fury is an “Irish Traveller” totally different from the Gypsies the article is about. Those people are of British/Irish extraction and started roaming around Britain and Ireland about 300-400 years ago. They don’t have anywhere near as bad a reputation as the dot Gypsies.

  138. Mefobills says:
    @bwuce wee

    during WWII, the preeminent fascist regimes were italy and germany. these forms of government were characterized by corporations basically running the government. that was the definition of fascism:

    Above is you imagining things. You are trying to impose your false definition.

    Here is Mussolini’s definition, and he is the authority not you:

    https://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

    They were authoritarian governments, with authority being given out in large measure due to labor being subordinated. The industrial revolution was running off the rails and the people wanted some sort of redress.

    In Germany’s case, as much as 1/3 of the country had been bought out from under German feet. This was done using the same mechanisms that Russia was slammed with in the 90’s. (Yes, it was Jews for the most part, running their usury scams against innocent people.)

    Mussolini:

    The State, as conceived and realized by Fascism, is a spiritual and ethical entity for securing the political, juridical, and economic organization of the nation, an organization which in its origin and growth is a manifestation of the spirit. The State guarantees the internal and external safety of the country, but it also safeguards and transmits the spirit of the people, elaborated down the ages in its language, its customs, its faith. The State is not only the present; it is also the past and above all the future. Transcending the individual’s brief spell of life, the State stands for the immanent conscience of the nation. The forms in which it finds expression change, but the need for it remains. The State educates the citizens to civism, makes them aware of their mission, urges them to unity; its justice harmonizes their divergent interests; it transmits to future generations the conquests of the mind in the fields of science, art, law, human solidarity; it leads men up from primitive tribal life to that highest manifestation of human power, imperial rule.

    Nowhere in Mussolini’s definition does he say, “corporations shall rule from behind the scenes.” The power vertical in both Italy and NS Germany was out in the open, and not a bunch of sociopaths angling for their own sordid gain.

    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  139. @RoatanBill

    Let’s not forget about all those in government who cripple and kill multitudes of others for their personal glory and gain. Is there an estimate of the number of people disabled by government actions/wars because the numbers of outright deaths by government are huge?

    Gypsies are pikers compared to the psychopaths in government. Maybe they connect because both groups are still animals.

  140. Skeptikal says:
    @Laurent Guyénot

    It seems like in many traditions, also the Norse, men and gods who understood the secrets of metalworking—which must have included not just how to run a forge, pound and shape molten metals, and manage fire, all of which pretty dangerous, but also the secrets of how to combine metals to get strong alloys—had a special status.

    When one considers the power conferred by having the strongest metals and weapons, it is not hard to see why that might be the case.

    Speaking of the gadje, Yul Brynner claimed to be a Roma/Gypsy.

    His biography, written by his son, is very entertaining and really quite smart and worth a read, and contains plenty of passages in which Yul reviles or takes the piss out of “the Gadje” or tells his son that he doesn’t have to pay attention to anything a gadjo says or thinks. They are pathetic wimps!

    Or just exclaims, “Gadjo!” as an all-around explanation for their cluelessness, especially if they happen to cross Yul, or expect him to behave appropriately or as expected.

    https://www.amazon.com/Yul-Would-King-Memoir-Father
    by Rock Brynner

    More:
    https://romediafoundation.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/yul-brynner-romani-hollywood-icon/

    Some debunking at this site of “myths” surrounding gypsies. I haven’t read the whole thing, though.

    I also saw Gypsies in Olomouc, Moravia, in 1992 and in southern Bavaria in the early 1970s.
    I shall write what I observed in separate post.

  141. @Anonymous

    “Sorry, but autosomal DNA analysis is *an EXACT science*. DNA analysis of ancestral geographic components simply *cannot* be quibbled with.”

    I fully agree that DNA sequencing can be, and often is, conclusive, but this picture is not quite as black and white as you seem to suggest. What do you suppose happened? Did someone line up 15 million Gypsies and take DNA samples from each?

    Did the results say:
    Gypsy #1: DNA 100% Indian
    Gypsy #2: DNA 100% Indian . . .

    “Lastly, the language of Gypsies, ‘Romani’ has been classed by philologists as definitely an Indic language – derived, ultimately from Sanskrit – and having features only found in the Indian branch of IE languages.”

    Not entirely true. There is evidence that some of the Gypsy language(s) have an even closer similarity to Bohemian and Czech – which themselves have links to Sanskrit.

    What makes the subject so interesting is that none of this is black and white. We should examine all options openly rather than attempting to foreclose on exploration by authoritarian (bullying) statements of “This is the only truth”.

    Some readers appear to be staking out a kind of “biblical truth” position that may not be justified. There are still too many loose ends in this story, too many questions without good answers.

    • Replies: @karel
  142. Skeptikal says:
    @Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque

    Well, that is a pretty obnoxious statement.

    There are some very pathetic stories in German sources of how “resident” Gypsies such as an elderly fellow who kept his wagon in a more rural area of I think Potsdam, were taken away and a list was made of his small store of belongings, including his wagon, a pot, two chairs, a lantern—that kind of thing. So these possessions were listed and the list was kept.

    Here is quite a long bibliography on the Roma, not all of it relating to the Third Reich.
    Germans have always been strong on ethnography . . .

    https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/sinti-and-roma

    There is plenty of information on Gypsies in Germany and elsewhere in Central Europe at the ushmm website—although many at UR revile anything to be found on that site!!

    E.g.,
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/persecution-of-roma-gypsies-in-prewar-germany-1933-1939?series=19

  143. @Commentator Mike

    Magyars may not sound European but they definitely look European. There is nothing in their features that suggests a Mongol or some other Asian origin.

    Yes I also wanted to point it out.

    The Hungarians migrated from Ural, same as their closest relatives, the Finns.

    The origin of Hungarians, the place and time of their ethnogenesis, has been a matter of debate. Hungarian is classified as an Ugric language, and Hungarians are commonly considered an Ugric people that originated from the Ural Mountains, Western Siberia or the Middle Volga region. The relatedness of Hungarians with other Ugric peoples is confirmed by linguistic and genetic data, but modern Hungarians have substantial admixture from local European populations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#Origin

    Like other Western Uralic and Baltic Finnic peoples, Finns originate between the Volga, Oka and Kama rivers in what is now Russia. The genetic basis of future Finns also emerged in this area. There have been at least two noticeable waves of migration to the west by the ancestors of Finns.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Origins

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  144. @Drapetomaniac

    One convenient source for the information you requested is:
    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

    There’s a section on the US and a long list of all the murders the US has committed over time along with records of other nations.

    Most people don’t realize that the institution of government has caused the deaths of over 200,000,000 people in the 20th Century. They elect the monsters that create the friction between nations that eventually leads to wars that the terminally stupid go and fight. It takes gov’t theft, coercion, fraud and violence against it’s own people to build up the low life military men and women in costumes that then go to foreign lands to murder people they never previously met. In the US, the majority are christians that pretend to be a moral people.

    You may also want to read Mark Twain’s take on war.
    https://warprayer.org/

  145. @Here Be Dragon

    The British Roma do not look like Gypsies to me, and I would not think they were Gypsies if I saw them. Regarding the reasons why they look so white I think it is the result of cross-breeding, mixed marriages and general assimilation.

    No, they’re Irish & have nothing in common with Roma, except a nomadic life-style.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
    ……………………..
    It has been suggested Travellers are related to Romani due to a similarly itinerant lifestyle, but genetic testing has shown no evidence for a recent ancestral component between Irish Travellers and Romani Travellers.
    …………………….
    Other speculations on their origin are that they were descended from those Irish who were made homeless during the Cromwellian conquest in the 1650s, or made homeless in either the 1741 or the 1840s famine, or due to eviction.
    ………………………………………….
    Irish Travellers speak English and sometimes one of two dialects of Shelta—Gammon (or Gamin) and Irish Traveller Cant. Shelta has been dated back to the 18th century but may be older. Cant, which derives from Irish, is a combination of English and Shelta.

    Jean-Pierre Liégeois writes that the Irish Traveller Gammon vocabulary is derived from pre-13th-century Gaelic idioms with ten per cent Indian origin Romani language vocabulary. Since Shelta is a mixture of English and Irish grammar, the etymology is not straightforward. The language is made up mostly of Irish lexicon, being classified as a grammar-lexicon language with the grammar being English-based. Gaelic language expert Kuno Meyer and Romani language linguist John Sampson both asserted that Shelta existed as far back as the 13th century, 300 years before the first Romani populations arrived in Ireland or Britain.

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
  146. raga10 says:
    @Joe Paluka

    Django Reinhart was not a genius by any means, he could pick up a guitar and play music. You sound like a white man I know who thinks all black musicians are geniuses and the black soul is imbued with magical musical powers.

    Well, I assure you that I harbour no such delusions yet I still think that Django was pretty special. Genius? I don’t know how to define or measure genius so I don’t like to use that term. But he was certainly more than just your average guitar player.

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
  147. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mefobills

    OK, I’ll state my position more baldly:

    The current world system is coming apart. It can’t maintain its capital base and its science, engineering, and technology (“knowledge about how to make things”) are all retrogressing. As one example, consider the displacement of mathematics by “Woke” indoctrination in elementary schools. The ignorance of the elite about abstracts is almost total now, but a generation raised to think that 2+2 is not 4, it is oppression, will be worse.

    The current international situation threatens to greatly reduce world trade. Adapting to that would require considerable engineering skill, skill that was never developed. “Political reality” at that point becomes “Can’t feed, house, or clothe much of the population”. See short novel “The Mandibles”, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mandibles , for some idea of what this might mean.

    Consequently, I’m not so interested in the current system. I’ve adopted to it, and it won’t be in force long enough for my adaptation to fail. I’m a bit interested in the successor system.

    Your text:

    Any sort of decay is due to a creditor class or oligarchy emerging, and these sort of people can be sociopaths, or have money sickness (the world is not enough).

    Right from the get-go, if the analysis does not include credit and debt, it is incomplete, and really useless analysis.

    suggests that you might have some opinions on the successor to the current world organization.

    Q: Should the successor system claim to control all property in whatever its region of sovereignty might be? Note that in 1800s UK, money and business and property were thought of as “too important to leave to government”.

    A Farewell to Alms

    attributes that attitude, maintained over several generations, with enabling the Industrial Revolution c.a. AD 1800.

    Q: If not, what should the successor system claim as its proper authority in its area of sovereignty? Remember, the successor system at that point will not have very many resources, and will have some trouble maintaining enough peace to support economic activities.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  148. @Drapetomaniac

    Bonhoeffer‘s Theory of Stupidity describes the people that actively support government:

  149. Z-man says:
    @Joe Paluka

    Hey hey hey, it was 95°, they were comfortable and had 500 Euros in them, so they were expensive. 👅😝👅

  150. @Here Be Dragon

    I don’t believe the entry in Wikipedia on the Magyars is correct. Wiki is so political, and so edited by agenda that it is almost useless as a reference on anything. You are of course free to create your own reality.

    “We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila“. “Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe: The Huns with their mighty chief Attila, the Magyars, The Turks or Osmanli, the Mongol invaders of Russia…”

    There is firm evidence the Magyars migrated from Western Mongolia to Eastern Europe. You may pretend this evidence does not exist, and thus ignore it in favor of a different theory.

  151. Skeptikal says:
    @Anon

    Saw a lot of this in Turkey.

  152. @RoatanBill

    You know why Europe has Gypsies and America has the feral urban black?

    Europe got first pick.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  153. GenFranco says:
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo

    Growing up this song (and the Bond film “From Russia with Love”) were all I knew about Gypsies. Later I learned another thing about them in the Paris subway, which cost me \$500.00 and two credit cards. A few questions about the song:

    “Papa would do whatever he could. Preach a little gospel…”

    Did Gypsies really preach the Gospel?

    “Every night all the men would come around, lay their money down.”

    Was this common? Gypsy prostitutes living off the lust of the local men?

    “I was sixteen, he was twenty-one … papa woulda killed him if he knew what he done.”

    Not because of the age difference, surely. Because he violated a female of his group without permission?

  154. Skeptikal says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    When I was in Budapest I was struck by the attractiveness of the Hungarians I saw in the cathedral. This was about 30 years ago.

    They sure didn’t look like they had any Asian DNA.

    Gray eyes, deep-set, with a clear gaze; light-brown hair, often wavy; more square faces; skin pale but not “fair.”

  155. Perhaps because in Russia they have a good school of Romani studies, the best sources of information on the Gypsies I know of are in Russian. Right now while I was looking for something else, I stumbled upon an article in which the following is said.

    “Modern research shows that the traditional culture of the Gypsies has retained the same traditional mechanism of ethno-social stratification that determined the development of castes and caste divisions in India. The obvious resemblance of the principles of operation of this mechanism among the gypsies and in the Indian Jati castes often brings about attempts to attribute individual gypsy groups to specific modern caste groups in India.”

  156. @Joe Paluka

    You sound like you think a lot about black guys in your spare time.

    • Replies: @Malla
  157. @Larry Romanoff

    Not real.

    Hungarians were from the area populated by slightly Asiatic Caucasians, similar to Finns. They have, racially & visually, almost nothing in common with real Asiatics from Mongolia & China etc.

    Y-DNA & Mitochondrial testing of them show they have no “Asiatic blood” (whatever that may mean).

  158. Mefobills says:
    @Anonymous

    The current world system is coming apart. It can’t maintain its capital base and its science, engineering, and technology (“knowledge about how to make things”) are all retrogressing. As one example, consider the displacement of mathematics by “Woke” indoctrination in elementary schools. The ignorance of the elite about abstracts is almost total now, but a generation raised to think that 2+2 is not 4, it is oppression, will be worse.

    Yes, but that is only in the Western World. The Ukraine war has caused a fracture. Eurasia is developing their own “world system.”

    https://en.newizv.ru/article/general/25-03-2022/sergei-glazyev-to-spoil-russia-the-united-states-and-great-britain-committed-suicide

    They have lost world leadership, their authority has been significantly blown away.

    I’m a bit interested in the successor system.

    Collapse and rebuild. Creditor Oligarchies never let go of the tiller willingly. Usually there is a revolution and they are killed. The one who does the killing is a super oligarch, a tyrant (a good tyrant), who agrees to release debts if the peasants join him.

    Q: Should the successor system claim to control all property in whatever its region of sovereignty might be? Note that in 1800s UK, money and business and property were thought of as “too important to leave to government”.

    The finance capitalism system that came into being in London in 1694 is in its “liberal” death throes. It is also known as atlantacism. It is only a matter of time, all civilizations that polarized with debts, collapsed. Unless there is debt release, then future western generations will not submit to debt slavery.

    The successor system is being built by Russia and China. The West will either collapse, or be forced to change course. There are private property rights in both China and Russia. They still have to learn how to tax properly, and release odious debts.

  159. @Larry Romanoff

    Dear Mr Romanoff,

    I posted that in a response to another person. There is no reason to get irritated, let alone to accuse me of being biased. Most people know how to find a link to the article a particular Wikipedia’s paragraph is based on. More often than not a referenced source is a credible one. Sometimes not.

    But I have a habit of checking it out before posting a comment.

    [MORE]
    “According to historical sources, ancient Hungarians were made up of seven allied tribes and the fragmented tribes that split off from the Khazars, and they arrived from the Eastern European steppes to conquer the Carpathian Basin at the end of the ninth century AD.”

    “The Hungarian Conquerors originated from three distant territories of the Eurasian steppes, where different ethnicities joined them: Lake Baikal-Altai Mountains – Huns and Turkic peoples, Western Siberia-Southern Urals – Finno-Ugric peoples, and the Black Sea-Northern Caucasus – Caucasian and Eastern European peoples.”

    “As such, the ancient Hungarians conquered their homeland as an alliance of tribes, and they were the genetic relatives of Asiatic Huns, Finno-Ugric peoples, Caucasian peoples, and Slavs from the Eastern European steppes.”

    Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

  160. 3g4me says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    @98 Larry Romanoff

    The European appearing ‘gypsies’ are obviously Irish Travelers – Irish in genetics, NOT subcontinental, albeit a distinct strain if I recall, which did separate from mainstream Irish. However their lifestyle may appear similar to gypsies, they do not share the same genetic origin. Again, you seem to not take into account numerous references, throughout history, of gypsies snatching away White children and ‘adopting’ them into the tribe.

    The photo of the two girls you label ‘mediterranean appearing” clearly look gypsy to me. Particularly the younger one on the left. The one on the right could pass for Sicilian perhaps, but again you make no mention of the strong possibility of limited interbreeding over the centuries.

  161. niceland says:
    @3g4me

    The fact that some subset of gypsies possess more European coloring and physiognomy merely reflects centuries of limited interbreeding (same as Jews with fairer coloring). Whether that interbreeding was due to abduction of European children, rape, mutual consent, etc. is open to debate.

    Judging by what the author wrote under: Gypsy Expulsions. I wouldn’t be surprised if considerable ratio of Gypsy women were raped during these times. Without support from their own and the legal status of livestock. This could explain a lot of blond hair and many blue eyes.

  162. @Bardon Kaldian

    Look at the photo. On their T-shirt and read it. “I am Romani, I am British, I am here to stay.” Written in red in English and in black in the Romani language. They are not Irish.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/feb/11/patronising-and-totally-false-my-despair-at-tv-about-gypsies-a-very-british-history-bbc

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  163. @raga10

    Yeah, “genius” is far too overused. Was he a Newton or Galileo? Of course not. I don’t even like the habit of calling anybody who makes music an “artist.”

    I’m just going by the combination of talent, skill, and especially innovation (another word overused to the point of losing its meaning) when it comes to music in general, and guitar in particular.

    In his relatively short career, Django pretty much invented a whole distinct genre and style of playing that people spend decades trying to master to this day. I’d put him up there with Andrés Segovia and VERY few others. There may be a better word than “genius” for people like that, but it works well enough.

    • Replies: @frankie p
  164. @Larry Romanoff

    Let me resolve this argument.

    Geneticist Razib Khan analyzed the data and came to the following conclusions. See below.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/author/razib-khan/

    Genetically on the whole the Romani are ~30% South Asian in ancestry (some groups and individuals are closer to 50%, others to 20%).

    The average Roma is 30% South Asian, but they’re in the range of 20-50%.

    Basically, they’re a mulatto people. They’re a mixture of both South Asian and European ancestry. As we would expect, they are generally lighter than South Asians, but darker than Europeans. Within their population, there’s variation in appearance. So some look Indian, others looks European, and most have a blended look.

    If you drew a line from India to southeastern Europe (which is the path that the Roma took), the midpoint would roughly be in Turkey or Iran. Interestingly, when you look at the typical Roma, they sort of physically resemble a Turk or an Iranian.

    If you assume that both geography and phenotype roughly correlate with ancestry, then it makes sense that the Roma (who absorbed significant DNA during their journey from India to the Balkans) would look Turkish or Iranian.

    It should be noted that it has historically been common for Roma to kidnap children to use as beggars. Roma women also have a long history of being prostitutes/dancers. So that likely is the conduit by which outside ancestry was absorbed.

    The below video is worth watching. In the video, you can detect both strong Eastern Euro and “Oriental” influence. The music might sound strange, but it’s reflective of the culture of Southeastern Europe and the swarthier parts of the former Soviet Union. In that part of the world, there’s been a strange fusion of two cultures. It’s gaudy, but sort of fun in an exotic way.

    By the way, there are an indigenous group of White European gypsies in the UK. They’re referred to as the “Irish Travellers.” While they are just as dishonest and dysfunctional as the Roma, they lack the “Oriental” mysticism and swarthy appearance. Many do itinerant labor, while running scams on the side. My father actually got cheated by some “Travellers.” See below.

  165. Bro43rd says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    There’s a possibility of European genes being incorporated into Indic bloodlines due to Roman, Greek, Italian and Russian conquests of Southern Asia. This could happen through the spoils of war but also if troops were left behind as magistrates and the empire eventually collapsed. Didn’t Alexander the Great conquer parts of NW India & Pakistan? Similar to how American Indians have as much European markers as Asian ones.

    https://dnaconsultants.com/native-americans-deep-ancestry-europe-yes-official/

  166. profnasty says:

    The Mayor of Boston is
    Michelle Wu.
    Let that sink in for a moment.
    Michelle,,,,,,WU.
    Ok. Now you know.
    You’re FKT.

    • Replies: @Sir Launcelot Canning
  167. TRM says:

    Peter Maas (The Valechi Papers, Serpico, etc) wrote a book called “King of the Gypsies” about the subject. Great read as it is an inside view.

    My favourite part was when he was told that “There were 5 nails for Jesus and a Gypsy stole the one for his heart so he gave Gypsies permission to steal”. He replied “That’s not in the bible” the response was a serious “Which bible are you talking about?” LOL

    Just make it up to suit your needs.

  168. The nicest people in this world, I have met have been refugees. I grew up with the children of refugees, after WWII in Oldham England. Some were from Ireland, but most of the refugees I grew up with were from Eastern Europe – Poland, Hungary etc

    I knew the names were not traditionally rare French like mine – which kind of makes me a refugee too, except I have never experienced war.

    I have been lucky enough to travel through a lot of the world, often with just a ruck sack and my girl, who so far as I can tell from her English family name, going back to before King Henry VIII, (her Grandmother said she was a Princess) is as English as anyone.

    She says come with me.I didn’t have a job at the time, but I had a car.. (we were a bit skint)

    We met loads of hippies (gypsies) – Stonehenge 82.83.84 and 85

    We tried to get in 1985 – Battle of The Beanfield

    We were happy. Still are. We travel. We camp. Still go to loads of cheap festivals, and will do so again outside of the UK, if they would only renew our passports. But it takes 10 weeks now, until the HM Government Passport Office Computer, says – that’s a big improvement on your last photo.

    “We will let you know within the next few days”

    We are trying to get out of England, but still want to come back

    I am nearly 70 now. Never had this crap before.

    Travelled since I was a little boy.

    I do not wear a mask, and I will not be jabbed.

    I am not brainwashed. I do not watch TV, nor do Facebook nor Twitter, and I do not do War.

    We are both naturally blonde, and our hair goes even blonder in the sun, whilst our skin goes really brown. I compare the colour of my arm with my mate, who’s Mum was born in Jamaica, and who really did grow up in a very old traditional horse drawn, beautifully decorated wooden caravan.

    He had virtually no traditional education, and at about the age of 17, opted in, to become an IT professional. Even he can’t stand it now. My wife says he has got a Girlfriend. We tend to meet at funerals now.

    Tony

  169. @JohnnyWalker123

    Hot girl, but let me show you how to dig in the crates. Listen to this!

    • LOL: JohnnyWalker123
  170. Outrageous piece on the whole.

    Decades ago the Scientific American published a review of the Gundestrup Cauldron in which it was suggested that it was made in the first century AD by gypsies, which is to say travelling metal workers with origins in India. The suggestion was that they may hav been around since the bronze age and been responsible for the disemmination of metalworking technologies.

    • Replies: @Joe Paluka
  171. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Larry your speculation about a similarity of Czech, (there is no Bohemian language) to sanskrit is just balls. There are indeed words like děva, meaning a girl or věda that may seem familiar to those knowing a bit of sanskrit but many other words, like sloka were incorporated into the Czech laguage in 19th century by fanciful linguists who searched for exotic expressions. A lot of it, is just a coincidence like my own surname, which has a definite meaning in sanskrit.

    We learned at school that the so-called Bohemians of France were gypsies expelled from Bohemia in 15th century during hussite wars, i.e. after 1415. Perhaps, you never heard of this possibility.

    There is no doubt that gypsies come from India. During my travels in Tamil Nadu I could see them begging everywhere at all major temples e.g. at Kailasanathar Temple in Kanchipuram. They are easy to recognise by their flashy dresses and overdose of golden jewelry. They have a much lighter complexion than the typical local tamils and look very much like gypsies in Europe.

  172. In most of Europe Gypsies are called Tsigane/Zigeuner. The etymology is from medieval Greek tsigganos, shortened from Byzantine Greek adigganos, athigganos ‘member of heretical sect’, literally ‘that does not wish to be touched’. Those gypsies are of the Untouchable caste from India, and Pariahs, total outcasts. There is plenty of linguistic evidence that they are from India, not least the word “shiv” meaning dagger, which doubtless comes from “Shiva,” god of destruction. One look at Flamenco dancing in Spain and you see the similarity to Indian dance. The Gypsies are the lowest caste and outcastes who came from India.

    • Agree: 3g4me
  173. Z-man says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    You haven’t met a Black Irishman or lass.
    BTW, thanks for the clip with the dancing gypsies.

  174. Thank you for this fascinating article on an elusive subject.

    The only “confirmed” gypsies I have encountered were in the UK, and they could have passed as Celts, with fair features.
    The one who asked me for my spare change had ginger hair & green eyes.
    Though as mentioned, they might have been Irish travellers, posing as gypsies.
    Another possibility is that the ethnic cleansing several centuries back, resulted in all the darker-skinned gypsies exterminated or deported.

    I might have met gypsies in Spain, but it’s hard to distinguish them from other Spaniards.
    I picked up some interesting knives, Carraca I think they are called. They make a “cricking” sound when opened, which was meant to intimidate anyone straying too close to their encampment.
    The vendor could again simply be posing as a gypsy, good for business in the right circumstances.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  175. @JohnnyWalker123

    There’s also a view that the children with broken limbs for begging and the prostitutes were/are the stolen children not core gypsies. It was even taken seriously at one point that Madeline McCann (a famous child abdustion in the UK) had been taken by gypsies.

  176. @JohnnyWalker123

    That’s an excellent contribution. Thank you.

    It does seem that our “Gypsies” of yesterday have now been re-sorted and have ended up in three different bins. We have “travellers” who are sometimes identified as Irish but who seem to be simply local itinerants, but this seems to be a large group requiring identification.

    I would be interested in the prevailing definitions of “Gypsy” and “Roma” in this context. Is it possible that the Gypsy migrated from India while the Roma are European and the Travellers hail from Dingle or Limerick?

    The Irish part is very curious. Why would Ireland, of all places, have developed such a group when no one else appears to have done so? That cannot be a permanent response to temporary oppression, surely?

  177. Contrary to popular belief there are indeed Gypsies in America.

    They in fact are able to operate with a level of impunity because liberals in the press will not call them out and this is even true for small town newspapers. Only in widespread scams with police involvement will their background be mentioned. In those cases journalists will add an opinion article about how they are oppressed and certain stereotypes are of course not at all true even if the police are looking for a gang of them.

    Their most visible scam is to beg with a child and act hungry. They will depict themselves as South African or Mexican immigrants but will say nothing if approached. If asked too many questions they will move on and setup their scam somewhere else. These begging scams are often setup near areas with tourists. European tourists think they are giving to poor Mexicans that racist Americans refuse to help when in fact they are falling to Gypsie beggars. South American / Mexican women in the US do not need to beg and generally find the practice to be shameful. They are plenty of public/private services for them.

    The Gyspie men are known to drive around the country and perform home repair scams. They agree with the homeowner to a price and then leave the next day or perform only a partial job. They also act as if they are illegals and looking for honest work.

    The men will also play music in public with a presumed child or family standing by. The implication being that they are desperate for any type of income to support their family. This is of course a lie and they are only looking for a few hours of donations. They have learned to dress somewhat Mexican but they won’t speak a word of Spanish. Just ask how they are doing in Spanish to confirm.

    Texas is home to a very large Gypsie population that is known for nationwide home repair scams. They also allow child marriage but our government refuses to investigate them.

  178. @karel

    “Larry your speculation about a similarity of Czech, (there is no Bohemian language) to sanskrit is just balls.”

    This was not MY speculation. Read the Atlantic article referenced in the text.

    [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1866/02/the-origin-of-the-gypsies/627983/

    The learned Büsching said, “The Gypsy language is a mixture of corrupt words from the Wallachian, Slavonian, Hungarian, and other nations.” These are the cognate languages of the Slavic race, all descended from the same source, and that also the source of the Cech.

    The complexion, habits, and character of the Gypsies resemble those of the Cechs as nearly as they do those of the Hindoos. The Cechs are an eminently gay and musical race. As regards complexion, it is found that the Gypsies in the Austrian army, who have been compelled to relinquish their wild life and dwell in houses, are as white as Europeans generally.

    considering the question as simply between India and Bohemia, it appears to me that the argument is altogether in favor of the derivation of the Gypsies from the latter country.”

    Without even examining the man’s sources and credentials, how can we categorically dismiss him and his learned observations? And what would be our motivation for doing so?

    • Replies: @karel
  179. panju says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Your article reminds me of folks (they were called GaDolias at the time) we use to see every year or two who will always travel in their bullock carts in a group of 300-400 and set up camp outside the city for 2-3 months. They use to make iron kitchen tools, sell to locals going door to door and then leave. I remember the prices were very low and people use to wait for their arrival.

    The story about them was that they were foot soldiers of Rajput King Rana Sanga at Chittorgarh fort in Rajasthan, India. When Muslim invader Babur (15th century) defeated the local King, these foot soldiers had taken an oath that “they will never sleep on bed, will never live in a permanent house etc. (very similar to the opening lines of the article) until their beloved Chittorgarh fort does not get their saffron (‘Bhagwa’) flag again”. True to their oath, these dedicated, honest and poor folks had dispersed from Rajasthan to various parts of northern India/Pakistan and beyond.

    After independence, various attempts were made to resettle these poor guys by the government. Finally, an agreement was reached. Perhaps best memory in my childhood was when my Dad asked me if I want to see a historic event in Chittorgarh in 1955 (or may be 1956?) to see huge mass (several hundreds of thousands) of all the Gadolia males dressed like marriage party guests, from many parts of India, with colorful turbans to witness Mr. Nehru (PM of India at the time) take down Indian national flag and raise the old Rajput Saffron flag at this fort to make these guys happy. Yes, that was definitely once in a life time kind of experience for a young kid.

    Only after coming here in the west did I read about Gypsies and always wondered if they are related to those noble honest foot soldiers of Rajasthan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Sanga

  180. Anonimko says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There is again the advocate of [email protected], who promotes the most primitive group in the world history, which remains a black hole in human civilisation. A carbon copy of Ukrainian (=’borderland people’) converts, without own history and language, who have only hated toward Serbs (or Russians).

    Of course, it is illusory to expect any argument (or a counterargument) from those who knows only for hate. The fact (regularly suppressed) that Serbs are indigenous European people with the oldest language is really painful for Vatican constructs who still have Serbian genes of their ancestors and only 20-30 years of own history.

    So, if the same genes as let’s say Novak Djokovic has were found in Lepenski Vir/Vincha (12000 years old) we can say that at least Novak’s ancestors were European indigenous people.

    PS: Re Hungarians – they can be treated as Slavic people considering that the most of them are in fact assimilated indigenous Serbs who were the majority until 1848 when started a brutal assimilation. It is a similar situation as in Bulgaria, only in this case, indigenous Serbs assimilated (linguistically and religiously) a handful of incoming Asiatic muslim Bulgars. Romanians (so as Moldavians) also can be considered as Slavic; they were artificially constructed by Jesuits as a separate nation with an artificial language in the second half of 19th c.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  181. Just a Thought:

    Does anyone think there might be a connection between the Roma in Romania and the apparent disappearance of vampires at Dracula’s castle? Just asking.

  182. @Boo

    Of course they are Indian. I’m Indian they look like a million Indians I’ve seen. Are you serious that you cannot see the resemblance? Not all Indians look like Apu – those from the far north can very closely resemble Gypsies. Furthermore the language has a TON of recognizably Indian words.

    There are a TON of Gypsies in India itself. They look a lot like those in Europe and have very similar customs. Why didn’t the author discuss this? I’d say he knows very little about the actual subject. The connection is hard to deny.

    • Agree: simple mind
    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @simple mind
  183. aandrews says:
    @Rahan

    Of course, girl fights are totally different nowadays.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVOp5YdPLbg

    • Replies: @Bro43rd
  184. Odyssey says:

    “The Gypsy language is a mixture of corrupt words from the Wallachian, Slavonian, Hungarian, and other nations.” These are the cognate languages of the Slavic race, all descended from the same source, and that also the source of the Cech.”

    The previous statement is right. The same source is – Serbian language. Ancient Serbian language was brought 2000BC to India by Aryans where its local version became Sanskrit. Even now, there are several thousands of identical (22%) or very similar (11%) words between Sanskrit and modern Serbian. There are also thousands of Serbian toponyms in India and South Asia. Because, Gypsies language also has some words from Sanskrit. In addition, Aryans brought the Vedic mythology which is similar to old Serbian (i.e. proto-Slavic) mythology to India. Gypsies brought back to Europe some of these customs and because some make wrong conclusion that Gypsies are genetically related to Slavics.

    PS: Re – Roma, vampire, Dracula…We should know that Dracula (Vlad Tepes the Impaler) was a Serb as the most of today’s Romania at that time. The term ‘Romania’ is only about 160 years old. There was an attempt to present Romania as the state of retired Roman soldiers (Vatican’s ‘East Latins project’, as a part of their march on the East which we are still witnessing). It should be also known that the ‘vampire’ is a Serbian word accepted in the whole world, so as the original name of the city of Roma (>Ruma) given by its founders.

    • Disagree: Malla
    • Replies: @Rahan
  185. @Larry Romanoff

    The Irish part is very curious. Why would Ireland, of all places, have developed such a group when no one else appears to have done so? That cannot be a permanent response to temporary oppression, surely?

    From what I heard it sounds like the travelers are genetically inclined towards certain behaviors. It’s not as if the Irish have never tried to help them. Ironically Whites on both sides of the Atlantic assume the other lacks empathy when dealing with minorities.

    This is the unspeakable problem of modern society. What happens if a parasitic minority group actually selects for traits like amorality in an effort to further itself?

    It is entirely possible on a genetic level and yet the mere implication is of course deeply taboo.

    Travelers sound like an oppressed minority until you hear first hand accounts of dealing with them. A very similar situation in America where Whites assume that all Black problems are external until they actually spend time around them.

    • Agree: 3g4me, Irish Savant
  186. Mactoul says:
    @Malla

    This is NOT banjara music at all and neither it shows a banjara camp.
    The music is pseudo-Arabic and lyrics Mehbooba means lover in Arabic.
    The dresses of gypsy singer and dancer copied from European gypsy style.
    Not in any way authentic or even semi-authentic indian banjara.

  187. Malla says:
    @Malla

    The link says she’s from Allahabad

    BTW, my Great Grandfather and my Grandfather lived in Allahabad. My Great grand Dad was a famous solicitor during British times while my Grandfather was a High court Judge in that same city, she is from. And even though I am not Brahman, but Kayastha (upper caste), I have relatives of both genders who look even more Caucasoid than her.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  188. @Libertarian66

    There are a TON of Gypsies in India itself. They look a lot like those in Europe and have very similar customs. Why didn’t the author discuss this? I’d say he knows very little about the actual subject. The connection is hard to deny.

    I don’t see the point in trying to distinguish them in India. They fit right in with the other scamming castes and a public that looks the other way on even the most despicable practices like crippling children to illicit donations. To the Hindu a single life of a begging child is mostly pointless because you are on some cosmic path anyways. Probably did something in a past life to deserve it in fact.

    Gypsies in India are not some outside group with values that are completely outside the norm. Just another caste in a royally f-ked up country.

    Even the most egalitarian/liberal Whites never return to India. In fact nothing undermines the poison of anti-White globalism like a trip to India. I know a family that sent their daughter to the third world for this reason and her White guilt from public schooling/media was immediately cured. Her fondest memory was getting dry humped by some 5’1 man on a public ferry.

    • Thanks: 3g4me
    • Replies: @raga10
  189. Richard B says:
    @Fisk Ellington Rutledge IV

    The Jews biggest current scam is to convince Whites to worship Negroes while, at the same time, weaponizing Negroes and other nonWhites against Whites.

    Case in point: Check out this crime video on the Phillip Adams murders (if you can stomach it). It’s practically a love letter to him. Same for the comment section.

    But the template will be easy to spot for many TUR readers, ie; less than a minute is spent on the family of the victim or victims and only long enough to show forgiveness (no anger allowed*). The rest of the video is spent justifying the actions of the murderer.

    But this video really goes above and beyond. In fact, it’s practically parody.
    Then again, in an age of absurdities the line between parody and reality is often blurred.

    *For the international criminal enterprise that is Jewish Supremacy Inc. to survive they must never allow their designated scapegoat (in this case whites) to show anger. Because anger is the emotion that starts revolutions. That’s why only they and their proxies and useful idiots are allowed to have anger. An anger which in their case is manufactured so as to justify their insatiable lust for power.

    This would explain their addiction to Hate Hoaxes.

  190. @Philip Owen

    Here’s an article which says that the Gundestup Cauldron which was found in Denmark in 1891. It says that the 2000 year old Cauldron was probably made in the region of Bulgaria by the Thracians due to the similarity in design to what they were doing then.

    https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-early-iron-age/the-gundestrup-cauldron/the-dating-and-origin-of-the-silver-cauldron/

  191. Malla says:
    @Sollipsist

    You sound like you think a lot about black guys in your spare time.

    Do not blame him, Western media forces people to think a lot about “genius Black men” a lot. When I was younger, watching Western media in India, I really believed Black people were all geniuses and innocent, kept down by jealous Whitey. In freakin India, I was brainwashed by Hollywood, Western serials and MTV. BBC World, CNN, France 24 was about the coming great “African Renaissance”, I wonder why doesn’t BBC World and especially France 24 rename itself to African channel. But meeting Blacks in real life in the West was a shock to me. It was the opposite. How can people live in this cognitive dissonance in between reality and media propaganda for such a long time is beyond me. Well, I lost my faith in media. And thank God for that.

  192. @profnasty

    Cue “Are You With Me Dr. Wu” by Steely Dan.

    • LOL: profnasty
  193. No, personally I don’t, but far too many sports fans and musical types do.

  194. @Larry Romanoff

    The real Vlad was a badass who impaled and terrified Muslim invaders by using their beliefs against them. This was seen as immoral by many Good Whites at the time but as a strategy was actually utilitarian and the result of being outnumbered.

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/standing-with-vlad-the-impaler

    It’s a shame that Bram Stoker turned him into some blood sucking ghoul.

    • Replies: @Malla
  195. Dream says:
    @Fisk Ellington Rutledge IV

    You forgot to mention that the “Khazars” are actually Ashkenazi Jews. One of the fundamental lies of our time is that the current Jewish population is Hebrew in origin when they are actually Turkic. The Jews have zero connection to Palestine. One of the worst mistakes the goyim ever made was allowing the Jews to steal Palestine from its rightful owners. Arthur James Balfour has a lot to answer for.

    Why are anti-Israel anti-semites so retarded? Majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Most Jews in Israel originate from the Middle East, North Africa, India, Ethiopia etc. Mizrahi( Middle Eastern) Jews outnumber Ashenazi Jews( 3.2 million vs 2.8 million) in Israel. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, Israeli Jews were less than 30% Ashkenazi.

    Ashkenazi Jews, like their white European brethen, are suicidal liberals who vote for Leftist parties. It is the non-white Jews who have the self- preservation instinct and vote rightwing. Its funny how Western leftists accuse Israeli Jews of being racist colonisers when in fact it is the non-white Jews who hate Muslims the most.

    • Thanks: simple mind
    • Replies: @John Johnson
  196. For information, I believe this is the original DNA study on the European Romani. It was originally published in December of 2012, and examined 152 individuals from 13 Romani groups from eastern, western, and northern parts of Europe.

    The study is not so black and white as some imagine, but it does state a strong indication that the Romani – who are undefined – performed an enormous mass emigration about 1,500 years ago, reaching the Balkans, and had another mass migration from the Balkans to the rest of Europe around 900 years ago.

    The report states, “All European Romani groups (except the Welsh Romani) appear on the same branch and without any non-Romani European groups, which would suggest a shared common origin of the European Romani.” (1)

    (1) https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)01260-2
    Reconstructing the Population History of European Romani from Genome-wide Data

  197. Skeptikal says:
    @karel

    A lot of gypsies have a look and coloring similar to that of the Afghani girl in this famous photo:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/green-eyed-afghan-refugee-in-famous-magazine-cover-flees-to-rome/

    • Replies: @karel
  198. @karel

    The Czech language in English was called Bohemian for a long time, and ethnic Czechs were called Bohemians, referring to the name of their country – Bohemia. The Czech language is related to Russian, and Russian is close to Sanskrit. But with that relaxed approach the author has demonstrated it is not possible to prove him wrong – he is in the post-truth land, and it appears that it does not matter if the fact and his opinion do not match. He seems to believe that the Gypsies are descendants of Khazarian tribes, and he also considers that blue-eyed Hungarians descended from the Mongols.

    So at this point I do find this discussion pointless. Not to mention that it requires a degree of competence like that of an educated linguist to make a reasonable conclusion based on similarities of the lexicon, and without also referring to ethnographic and historical information to determine whether the chicken or the egg came first is also impossible. However we have genetic studies and linguistic studies at hand and both of them with no doubt asserted that the Roma people, i.e. the Gypsies originated in India, as well as that Ural is the homeland of the Hungarians.

    There is a large number of borrowed words in the Russian language. Some of them come from Romani, the language that the Gypsies speak. Following the author’s logic we can now assume that the Russians might have descended from the Gypsies, or that it was the other way round. Likewise we can point it out that a whole lot of words in Russian share the same roots, pronunciation and meaning with the corresponding words in Sanskrit and therefore it can be possible that the Russians come from India too. Or even from the Gypsies. Or even from the Jews, because there are some borrowed words from Yiddish.

    These are supposed to be the original Hindu Roma.

    [MORE]
    And anticipating a critical response, here is a respectable reference.

    Sanskrit and Russian: Ancient kinship
    https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/01/sanskrit_and_russian_ancient_kinship_39451

    According to Rishi, the relation between these two languages is very close and correspondence between these two languages is so minute that it cannot be attributed to mere chance. “The facts lead us to conclude that during some period of history the speakers of Sanskrit and Russian lived close together.”

    The uncanny similarities between Sanskrit and Russian clearly indicate a close kinship between the two nations in the distant past. That could explain why Indians and Russians get along so easily compared with any other nation. For both nations are sisters under the skin.

    • Replies: @karel
    , @Skeptikal
  199. Malla says:
    @John Johnson

    It’s a shame that Bram Stoker turned him into some blood sucking ghoul.

    Christian Whitey has suicidal tendencies. In most other culture, King Vlad Tepis would be celebrated as a great hero. All of Christian Europe should have been celebrating him, all the way to Iceland. But Christian Whitey erroneously believes that niceness & self-criticism will change your enemy’s heart. It at most works 2 to 5% of the time and it would have worked more in a perfect universe, but in this universe, all it leads to is the enemy wanting even more concessions.

  200. Odyssey says:

    Unlike Catholics’ parts of former Yugoslavia (and W.Europe), Serbia is much more tolerant toward all minorities. including Gypsies. There are not many nomad Gypsies, the most of them are settled and many have some regular employment. Probably 80%+ have muslim names but they also practice spring pagan festivals which were incorporated in Christianity (Djurdjevdan – St George).

    Serbian government tried to stimulate them to do more education and to increase the school participation of girls because they usually get married very young. They are also stimulated to participate in sports and politics. Not many Gypsies obtained University degrees, but they are especially well represented in the entertainment, especially playing/singing Gypsy music. But there are examples of those with serious musical education. There are two examples, one is a (pretty white) gypsy girl with a Gypsy band singing in Serbian and a Gypsy violinist who performed around the world:

    Usnija

    Nemanja Radulovic – Carmen in Monte Carlo

    • Replies: @Rebel Roy
  201. Malla says:
    @bwuce wee

    What you wrote looks good on paper, but sadly does not work to the extent it should have, in practice. One reason, why the White man’s burden failed. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect universe and human behavior is not rational. The Western combination of Christian morality and Enlightenment Rationalism works well within limits and beyond a point collapses as mass human behavior is mostly not moral (especially in the Third World) and not rational. That is why the West (population not ZOG) is confused with the non Western World. Some wise, old Village headman man in some village in India would laugh at your idealistic beliefs, they have seen life. They believe in descent and DNA, most conservative populations on Earth believe it upto some extent.
    Best practical solution is to separate oneself from alien populations and to leave them alone as much as practically possible.

    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  202. Dream says:

    The Romani mostly look brown, but are genetically 65-70% European.

    As previously explained (Font-Porterias et al., 2021), the Roma individuals included in the present study show, on average, 68.4% and 31.6% of European and South Asian global ancestry proportions, with a standard deviation of 7%.

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2021.683880/full

    • Replies: @bispora
  203. Daniel H says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Apparently, per recent genetic investigation, the Irish travelers have been largely endogamous since the 17th century. Speculation is that they were thrown off the land as a result of the Cromwell wars.

    Fiercely independent (but of course, they will take the dole if the settled are so foolish as to offer it) devoutly Roman Catholic (that doesn’t preclude swindling and thuggery) and sexually chaste, though they do marry young. They have contempt for the settled and the settled life. This life is ephemeral, why be trapped by material matters?

  204. Odyssey says:
    @Malla

    You may or may not know that all words you mentioned (dwi, tri, chatur and veda, so as rg) are Sanskrit/Serbian words. They came to India with Aryans. Your Caucasian looking relatives from higher castes indicate their Aryans’ origins. I know that they are very represented in UP. Even your name/pseudonym means – little (f) (e.g. ‘a little girl’). Have a look (3 min) some other words. Cheers!

    • Thanks: Malla
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  205. @Dream

    hy are anti-Israel anti-semites so retarded? Majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Most Jews in Israel originate from the Middle East, North Africa, India, Ethiopia etc. Mizrahi( Middle Eastern) Jews outnumber Ashenazi Jews( 3.2 million vs 2.8 million) in Israel. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, Israeli Jews were less than 30% Ashkenazi.

    Ashkenazi Jews, like their white European brethen, are suicidal liberals who vote for Leftist parties. It is the non-white Jews who have the self- preservation instinct and vote rightwing. Its funny how Western leftists accuse Israeli Jews of being racist colonisers when in fact it is the non-white Jews who hate Muslims the most.

    The Ashkenazi are indeed a minority but they dominate the country and all major parties including the center-right Likud party.

    The Israeli left is not suicidal like the Western left. They are not globalist and do not push for open borders. It is considered an extreme left position in Israel to support a single country with equal rights for Muslims. The Israeli left supports racial marriage laws (no marrying out) and DNA based immigration tests. But don’t expect the Times or Wapo to mention any of that.

    It’s a completely different environment. The Israeli left is closer to the Japanese left in that they are nationalistic. It is the US/European left that wants to undermine Whites and eventually breed them out. They are aware of race and do not believe a worker’s state should exist if Whites ultimately dominate it. I have had numerous leftists fully admit that there wouldn’t global racial equality as Asians would dominate the world economy. They are fine with that as long as Whites are gone or at least under the thumb of a non-White majority. It is really not hard to get leftists to admit this in private.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Dream
  206. @Here Be Dragon

    Your are right, these are not Irish Travelers. They even look mixed & are not visually generically European.

  207. @Malla

    Vlad the Impaler is the national hero of Romania. Other white countries have their own killers as heroes, why import a Romanian one? But the Western culture has indeed demeaned Vlad through their fake stories and movies, and he was definitely one of the greatest defenders of Europe and Christianity from the Ottoman Muslim invasion, although there were many more less known but perhaps no less deserving of recognition.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Malla
  208. @Odyssey

    When you find the same word in two languages geographically very far apart how do you decide who imported it from whom? Just here we are discussing Gypsies from India so maybe they brought some Indian words over with them to Europe which were then adopted by others. In Europe Celts were present over vast areas so maybe some words originated from them. Even Normans were present from England to Byzantium and in Italy, Spain, France, North Africa so they could have spread some words too. Why does it have to be the Serbs?

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Odyssey
    , @Malla
  209. @antitermite

    The “full Basque” bladelock (that rattles) is very common on traditional
    Spanish cutlery; the peasants were not allowed to carry the espada
    (and fixed blades >4in, are still illegal to carry) so they made their folders real big.
    What´s a girl Mack the Knife Pepe to do 😀 ?

    • Replies: @antitermite
  210. France has been expelling/repatriating Gypsies to Romania and Bulgaria. Why not repatriate them all the way back to India? Most French Gypsies have been in France far longer than since the European Union opened its borders to Romania and Bulgaria. Many French Gypsies are involved in high level Mafia type crimes and not just petty crimes like elsewhere.

  211. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Chaplin’s hair was dark before it turned grey and it was sometimes claimed he was Jewish. But it appears he had a Gypsy grandmother.

  212. raga10 says:
    @John Johnson

    Even the most egalitarian/liberal Whites never return to India. In fact nothing undermines the poison of anti-White globalism like a trip to India.

    I attest to that! Like many young Westerners of the time I performed my pilgrimage to the East in search of enlightenment – and I found it, though not in the form I expected: I returned with the new-found appreciation for my own culture.

    As for India, I always say it was an experience I am truly thankful to have had, and one I have absolutely no desire to repeat.

    • Replies: @Malla
  213. Dream says:
    @John Johnson

    The Israeli left is not suicidal like the Western left. They are not globalist and do not push for open borders. It is considered an extreme left position in Israel to support a single country with equal rights for Muslims. The Israeli left supports racial marriage laws (no marrying out) and DNA based immigration tests. But don’t expect the Times or Wapo to mention any of that.

    It’s a completely different environment. The Israeli left is closer to the Japanese left in that they are nationalistic. It is the US/European left that wants to undermine Whites and eventually breed them out. They are aware of race and do not believe a worker’s state should exist if Whites ultimately dominate it. I have had numerous leftists fully admit that there wouldn’t global racial equality as Asians would dominate the world economy. They are fine with that as long as Whites are gone or at least under the thumb of a non-White majority. It is really not hard to get leftists to admit this in private.

    True, Israeli left is not as suicidal as Western left, but they are very “woke” by non-(European/Western) standards.
    Israeli left is absolutely not against “miscegenation” – when Israeli far right Lehava protests against intermarriages, Israeli leftists gather to protest against them. While most Israelis – Jews as well as Christians, Muslims and Druze – are opposed to intermarriage( so were white Americans in the 1990s), outright anti-miscegenation sentiments and parties are considered far right.
    DNA test stories are exaggerated or downright stupid – Mizrahim, Sephardim, Askhenazim, Bene Israel( Indian Jews), Ethiopian Jews as well as thousands of mongoloid Northeast Indian “Jews”( Bnei Menashe) are genetically different but all have been allowed to immigrate to Israel – and are allowed to intermarry. There are also hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish foreign workers in Israel.

    You will also find plenty of Israeli Jews who take the side of Palestine. Its a combinatiom of Mizrahi nationalism, higher religiosity, the Holocaust and Israel being surrounded by enemy nations which pulls Ashkenazis to the right – but they are very Leftist/ liberal by non-Western standards.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  214. Rebel Roy says:
    @Here Be Dragon

    Totally agree with you Here Be Dragon.Not sure why Larry thinks they look European but they do not.It is very easy to see they mirror people from certain areas of India.Also not sure how Larry is so certain about their DNA when its so obviously wrong.I’ve seen many Gypsies and many Indians,and they are a match.I liked reading about them in his article but I feel like what you had to say in your comment matches the thinking of many many people who are knowledgeable and whose opinions I respect and value.Great comment.

    • Thanks: Here Be Dragon
  215. @Larry Romanoff

    I see. The vampires spread out over Europe?

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  216. Rebel Roy says:
    @Odyssey

    Pretty White?Your vision of what a pretty White woman looks like is warped.Just because she is not black with an afro and giant lips does not make her White.That woman you reference is very swarthy with black hair and eyes.Looks Turkic to me.I get so angry when the American police booking lists White for all the shitty black haired,black eyed darkies from Mexico,Guatemala etc.Its some kind of brainwashing ploy because they are so obviously not White in any sense.I think the Jew brainwashers want to scramble our minds with nonsense to the point where we short circuit.

    • Agree: Alden
  217. @JR Foley

    Some Gypsies had to endure delousing and education during the Third Reich.

  218. @Malla

    I would have said clearly Iranian too 😉
    – Gypsy lore that they will be greeted in the afterlife by a white dog seems oddly
    specific – are there any analogues?

  219. bispora says:
    @Dream

    What a false argument…
    The Spanish gypsies and the Hungarian musician gypsies or Romungros, two successful examples of the breaking of the gypsy endogamy. Maria Theresa started the settling of the wandering gypsies, with draconian laws. Localisation also meant that gypsy men were taken away to serve in the army for ten years, and a significant proportion of gypsy girls who stayed in the area were no longer pregnant by gypsy men. This process was also taking place in Spain. However, in Hungary we have two highly endogamous Gypsy clans – one is the Beás Gypsy and the other is the Oláh Gypsy group (they lived as slave labourers in Romania until the mid-1800s). If the study were carried out on these two groups, the results would be completely different – as indicated by the high number of endogamous genetic diseases in Gypsies.

  220. @Larry Romanoff

    Another possibility is that the Roma are the indigenous people of South Eastern Europe or at least a large part of it. They may not have had to “enter” the land at all, they were always there, and had large population growth during the late 1200sAD which is why they began to appear all across other parts of Europe.

    The Slavs took over much of Eastern and South Eastern Europe but it does not mean that there was not a native population there before hand. You are correct that the genetics are not entirely clear nor are the photos, it is still a open issue for the origins of the Roma people.

    • LOL: Boo
    • Replies: @bispora
  221. j1 says:
    @Sir Launcelot Canning

    rat poison can’t even kill rats let alone humans

  222. @Dutch Boy

    When she confronted him about this, he protested that he was forced to move because the Surinamers kept chickens in the apartment.

    Surinamese, my Neezy.

  223. bispora says:
    @Jerry Rham

    Another possibility is that Romanoff ‘s article is a bullshit. The north-west Indian origin of the European gypsies is perfectly verified by hpalogroup markers.They fled their ancestral lands and began their migration to Europe around 1000 AD during the Muslim invasion. What is so difficult to understand?

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  224. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Occasionally Hungarians have somewhat Asiatic features, especially in the centre and south of the country, but these were areas under Ottoman control for a couple of centuries and it is likely that people like that have Ottoman soldiers or overseers among their ancestors. It is certainly not something from their remote West Siberian origins. I suspect they have a lot of Slavic, Romanian and south German ancestry – linguistically, the very first recorded Hungarian text, the “Funeral Oath”, already has at least one Slavic loanword in it.

  225. Sadly but expected that this would turn into a “where do gypsies come from” snorefest of comments. Seriously who cares where they came from? When I see ants in my kitchen I don’t wonder where they came from, I just spray them and move on with my day. The only useful thing history tells us about Gypsies is that they have been trouble since they have been written about. Hundreds of years ago they were thieves and liars just like today. Nothing has changed.

    “They come from Bohemia” “They come from India” is just mutual masturbation which does nothing to solve the problem. For those on the “they come from India” side why are you not suggesting we ship them to India? Sounds like a good plan to me. The biggest problem with wannabe historians is that they get caught up on minutia and completely lose sight of the big picture. Our discussion should be how can we force our governments to expel this race of criminal scum.

    • Agree: Alden, 3g4me
    • Replies: @Jerry Rham
  226. Bro43rd says:
    @aandrews

    That photo appears to me to be 2 smallish dudes with sports bras on.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  227. bwuce wee says:
    @Malla

    you are not in any way, form or fashion replying to my text, making your resposne an irrelevant rant. i never mentioned the ‘white man’s burden’- i have no idea what that is, being native american background. i have no idea what xian morality is being as i am a buddhist for the last 52 years. i am discussing assimilation of nomadic gypsy culture into western urban civilization and you are talking about stone age villagers laughing at me??!!? did i ever mention a perfect world or a perfect anything? nope. if a person is irrational or hysterical, then they have made a mistake and allowed animal reaction to rule them rather than cultivation of their rational thinking process. and my beliefs?!?! i have not discussed ANY of my beliefs. what i discussed were FACTS- belief is the realm of religion, which was never under discussion here. as far as idealism goes, i have no idealistic bones in my body. what you are basically doing is responding to my dissection of your muddled rant with NAME-CALLING, imagining, like many children, that you can banish the truth by name-calling: you cannot. and further, i am waaaay wiser than any village headman you can locate anywhere on earth. i grew up picking up rattlesnakes with my bare hands, so when i say you have free will and must learn to act rationally rather than emotionally if you are to be an adult human being and assimilate, that is EMPIRICAL KNOWLEDGE- not talk or belief. you care to go snake hunting with me, squaw?

    • LOL: Bro43rd, Malla
    • Replies: @Malla
  228. Dimitrie says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    All (or almost) the children from mixed lineage european-gypsy stayed with the tribe. That’s why gypsies gradually became whiter. Beside white features are prized by gypsies which instead give an advantage in successfully passing to the new generation. The stories about stolen children are in some cases true but I think is a gross exaggeration. There wasn’t any impact on the gipsy gene pool form that.

    At least in Romania there is a social categories with foreign origin which were included to “gipsy” class (rudari ). Indeed they do not have any ethnic connection with gypsies nor occupation because rudari are good craftsmen very honest and sedentary. But they are anyway put in ranks of gypsies because it’s simpler to categorize.

    The same with Traveler. At origin they are dispossessed irish who survived at the fringe of society. All vagrancy classes (independent of their ethnic origin) tend to have the same behavior: impure occupations, petite crime, dirty work, living for today etc. They were put in line with gypsies only because of their occupation.

    Gipsy and roma are the same thing. Two names for the same ethnicity. Although the corect name is gypsy. The name roma is a innovation of the gypsies in late xx century because the name “gypsy” become to frustrating for them. It’s a invocation of their own turpitude in contrast with the legal maxim 😀

    • Replies: @Alden
  229. @Larry Romanoff

    Thanks Larry but I don’t have an internet link for it – it’s on my laptop.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  230. Irish travelers/knackers engaged in traditional pursuits!

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  231. bwuce wee says:
    @Mefobills

    waaay before WWII mussolini establusked 22 corporations to rule italy:

    https://www.quora.com/Exactly-what-22-corporations-did-Mussolini-divide-Fascist-Italy-into

    In 1926 the status of these syndicates was regularised by legislation. The basic ideas of the Law of April 3, 1926, are:

    [MORE]

    (1) The voluntary character of membership.

    (2) Official recognition as soon as a syndicate represents 10 per cent of those engaged in the trade or profession.

    (3) The right and duty of the syndicates thus recognised to represent all non-members in the same trade or profession.

    (4) The interdiction of strikes and lock-outs, and compulsory acceptance of the decision of Labour Courts for the settlement of disputes.

    It is not the object of the Corporate State to suppress the identity of classes by merging them into mixed Corporations. Within the framework of these Corporations the syndicates of employers and employees retain their respective identity. Each Corporation—with the exception of that of the Professional Men and Artists—consists of two National Confederations, the one representing the employers’ groups, the other the employees’. The following is the list of the thirteen great Confederations which form the basis of the six corporations:

    (1) The Corporation of Agriculture:

    ( a ) The National Fascist Confederation of Farmers

    (b) The National Confederation of Fascist Agricultural Syndicates.

    (2) The Corporation of Industry:

    ( a ) The General Fascist Confederation of Industry.

    (b) The National Confederation of Fascist Industrial Syndicates.

    (3) The Corporation of Commerce:

    (a) The National Fascist Confederation of Commerce.

    ( b ) The National Confederation of Fascist Syndicates of Commerce.

    (4) The Corporation of Internal Transport:
    (а) The National Fascist Confederation of Internal Communications.
    (б) The National Confederation of Fascist Syndicates of Internal Communications.
    (5) The Corporation of Sea and Air Transport:

    (a) The National Fascist Confederation of Sea and Air Transport.

    (b) The National Confederation of Fascist Syndicates of Seamen and Airmen.

    (6) The Corporation of Banking and Insurance:

    ( a ) The National Fascist Confederation of Credit and Insurance.

    ( b ) The National Confederation of Fascist Syndicates of Employees in Banks and Insurance Offices.

    (7) The National Confederation of Fascist Syndicates of Profession Men and Artists

    source: The Economic Foundations of Fascism by Paul Einzig

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  232. Jakie says:
    @Anonymous

    Seems obvious when taking a simple unbiased look at their conduct…and apparent culture.

    They pretend to be ignorant and illiterate….etc.

    So much easier to conn those outsiders who completely expect they’re dealing with stupid people.

    Classic human “assumption” that ignorance = stupidity. And the Rom are neither.

    A great setup by the unbound.

  233. Alden says:
    @Boo

    Here’s A common theory of why the Gypsies left India It makes a lot of sense.
    When the Muslims conquered N India and converted most of the population the Muslim government’s were confronted with the problems of gypsies. A strong numerous nomadic caste of criminals. Apparently the native Hindus had tolerated this criminal caste. But the Muslims didn’t tolerate them. And treated gypsy criminals the same way other criminals were treated.

    So the gypsies left India and found much better pickings in Europe later the Americas. There are some in Turkey. But few in the Arab Muslim countries.

    • Thanks: Humbert Humbert
  234. A common refrain heard when I was a kid “don’t go over the Bone, the gypos will get ya” Needless to say, to a kid, that’s a challenge. So over to the Bone we’d go. The gypsies would set up camp on the waste ground, then the men would head into Belfast looking for work. They are by far amazing metal Smith’s. We’d play with their kids and it was fun to break the ‘rules’ the racism and bigotry harboured by adults flew high over our heads.

    Cheers M

    I’m a free born man
    Of the traveling people
    No fixed abode
    As nomads we have wandered
    Every highway and biway
    Never fancied being numbered.

  235. Alden says:
    @Dimitrie

    About the children stolen by gypsies. One of those stolen was returned to his parents. That child grew up to become a famous economist Adam Smith who wrote Wealth of Nations.

    His parents hired a bounty hunter private detective who recovered 3 year old Adam. So if there were investigators engaged in kidnapped child recovery at the time there must have been enough kidnapped children for these private investigators to make a living.

    I was targeted by gypsies in one of those contrived car crashes. They banged into me when I was in the middle of an intersection. 2 men and a woman the dark Indian looking. The men jumped out and started screaming and shouting I owed them money. I just started the car and left. They followed me a few blocks then left.

    When I told friends and neighbors about it I learned there’d been several similar incidents in the neighborhood. One time the goodies demanded the woman victim go with them to her ATM to give them the thousands of dollars the gypsied demanded. It was always a woman and 2 gypsy men screaming at her.

    Then the gypsies disappeared.

    My car is white Theirs was black and left a black streak all along the side. The bump was so gentle there was no dent or the slightest indentation. The black paint came off with an old washcloth and scouring powder. I didn’t even have to use a dishwashing scrubby the bump was so gentle I thought I’d run over a pizza box or other trash.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
    , @Malla
  236. Mr. Grey says:
    @Colin Wright

    I thought the word Gypsy came from when they appeared in the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Greeks thought they were Egyptians. Then when the Gypsies migrated further into Europe, since they were coming from Romania (Rome, as in Byzantine Empire, not modern day Romania), they picked up the “Roma” label.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  237. Alden says:
    @bwuce wee

    The first police force in NYC was established by the first Dutch settlers in the 1620s 200 years before there was any significant Irish Catholic migration to the city.

    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  238. sarz says:

    Romanoff talks off the top of his head. I wonder how come he’s on unz.com.

    If you want to see genetic studies of the Roma connection with India go to scholar.google.com and put something like ‘roma genetics india’ in the search box.

  239. @Mr. Grey

    “Rom” simply means “human” in Romanes (relegating us mere mortals to
    somewhat uncertain status); same with “Inuit” and “Arapaho” BTW
    i.e. it´s a mistranslation/artificial.
    Names given by others have their own problems (heh), but this is just peecee
    running wild.

  240. whew says:

    to deny strong evidence of their origin, and then to just throw out that they must be Czech because of the weakest evidence (hard to even call it that) is pretty interesting. the author must be a kayak. but hardly surprising “logic” from someone who’d claim Slavs are Asiatic in origin…

  241. @Dream

    True, Israeli left is not as suicidal as Western left, but they are very “woke” by non-(European/Western) standards.
    Israeli left is absolutely not against “miscegenation”

    The Israeli left can feign any position on miscegenation because the marriage laws as they stand are written in relation to religion. But the effect is the same.

    For example an Israeli Jew can’t marry a Catholic Hispanic.

    On paper it is because of religion but the net effect is government fostered racial inclusivity.

    DNA test stories are exaggerated or downright stupid

    Downright stupid? It’s a standard method of gaining citizenship:

    https://pz-law.co.il/en/blog-en/repatriation-to-israel-via-a-dna-test/

    You probably need to do some more research in that area before commenting.

    You will also find plenty of Israeli Jews who take the side of Palestine.

    Polls show that they are a slim minority.

    I really don’t care if the Jews want a Jewish state. Islam is very much incompatible with other religions and Western secularism.

    My position is that European countries should be able to pass similar laws without being called fascist or far-right. If a French or British party opposes open borders it is considered far-right in the globalist press. Israel actually has a racial DNA test for citizenship which most Whites wouldn’t think is possible. This is because most Whites have been indoctrinated into believing that race doesn’t exist.

    • Replies: @Dream
  242. An interesting and well written article on a subject that the MSM refuses to investigate but the commenters are correct that Gypsies have been traced to India through DNA tests:
    https://www.livescience.com/25294-origin-romani-people.html

    They are not Romanian.

    Egalitarians and leftists have in fact argued against DNA testing them out of fear that Europeans might found out what they already know which is that they are not a European offshoot. Most likely a lower caste that left India or was chased out.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  243. Wielgus says:
    @Colin Wright

    From the 1974 Yılmaz Güney film Arkadaş (‘Friend’). At about 4:25 two of the main characters go to visit Gypsies, who play music and a couple of their young women perform a sort of lewd dance. For a walk on the wild side in Turkey, Gypsies seem to be considered a good choice.
    In physical appearance Gypsies do not look very different from other Turks, however, although they sometimes dress in a flashier way.

  244. Anonymous[361] • Disclaimer says:

    The Legendary Carmen Amaya (1913-1963)

  245. @Irish Savant

    There is hope. Go to https://tineye.com/

    Upload your photo and see if Tineye can find some Internet links for you. It almost always does.

    Tineye, if you aren’t familiar with it, is a reverse lookup site for images. Give it an image and it will search the internet to find it.

  246. @Irish Savant

    Oh, my. Nothing like this was in my list of Gypsy lore. It would be interesting to learn how and why this group came into existence. It seems to be truly one of a kind, and obviously enduring through time.

  247. @Alden

    “I was targeted by gypsies in one of those contrived car crashes. They banged into me when I was in the middle of an intersection.”

    Where and when did this happen? What country and city, and what year?

  248. Dream says:
    @John Johnson

    The Israeli left can feign any position on miscegenation because the marriage laws as they stand are written in relation to religion. But the effect is the same.

    For example an Israeli Jew can’t marry a Catholic Hispanic.

    On paper it is because of religion but the net effect is government fostered racial inclusivity.

    It has nothing to do with race. An Ashkenazi Jew is perfectly allowed to marry an Indian or Ethiopian Jew. Close to 30% of Ashkenazis are married to Mizrahis. Interracial marriages are perfectly legal if they are Jewish.

    Downright stupid? It’s a standard method of gaining citizenship:

    https://pz-law.co.il/en/blog-en/repatriation-to-israel-via-a-dna-test/

    You probably need to do some more research in that area before commenting.

    Meaningless. Ethnic Germans from Central Asia are also allowed to immigrate to Germany by virtue of their race/ethnicity – doesn’t mean non-whites can’t immigrate to Germany. Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Indian, Ethiopian, Tibeto-Burman Jews are genetically different – but all have been allowed to immigrate to Israel. DNA tests are just one of the many methods to immigrate to Israel.

    My position is that European countries should be able to pass similar laws without being called fascist or far-right. If a French or British party opposes open borders it is considered far-right in the globalist press. Israel actually has a racial DNA test for citizenship which most Whites wouldn’t think is possible. This is because most Whites have been indoctrinated into believing that race doesn’t exist.

    Israel has open borders for Jews of all races. The average Israeli also doesn’t believe in race.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  249. Malla says:
    @raga10

    You gotta read, The Lotus and the Robot, a book by Arthur Koestler. The Jewish guy who wrote about the Khazar theory. After his travels to India, researching Indian spirituality, he actually began to appreciate the West.

    • Replies: @Peter Rabbit
  250. Malla says:
    @Alden

    I was targeted by gypsies in one of those contrived car crashes. They banged into me when I was in the middle of an intersection. 2 men and a woman the dark Indian looking. The men jumped out and started screaming and shouting I owed them money. I just started the car and left. They followed me a few blocks then left.

    LOL, they are South Asians alright!!!.

  251. Wielgus says:
    @John Johnson

    Romany has been proved to be connected to Indo-Aryan languages of northern India. That is where they come from.

  252. Malla says:
    @bwuce wee

    My Native American friend, I understand your point of view. I had a similar point of view too once but I got dissapointed with human nature. Maybe I am wrong. Lets wish the best for humanity. Sorry if I came out too abrasive in my comment, maybe it is the bitterness of disappointment. My sincere apologies. Even for clicking the LOL button.

    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  253. Che Guava says:
    @Lurker

    I don’t know about that, much of my early education in advdnced English by age, was 19th and early 20th century fiction. Appearance of gypsies, not uncommon.

    Always as parasites. Sometimes as child-thieves, which appears to have been a custom of theirs until recent times.

    By all accounts I read of recent times, if one is stupid enough to go to Rome, Paris, London, etc., gipsy pickpockets are everywhere in overwhelming nunbers, with blacks and muslimes as both violent crime and theft threats.

    A colleague went to Portugal, she enjoyed a nice time with no attempts at petty theft.

    Of course, she chose Portugal for just that reason. Other western european nations are well aware of just how badly the behaviour of groups like gipsies affect their tourism, people just stay away.

    Western european bureaus responsible will never report the loss of numbers, but e.g. in
    as for gypsies, Paris and Rome are no-go, why go to g place where so many scum are so avid to steal anything from you, whether you need it or not, whether rich or poor.

    Sure, I know, blacks and moslems do the same thing but even worse if you stray a little from very public places.

    So, despite the views and art, architecture, better to completely avoid such places.

    … and east Asian people are voting with their feet to avoid those places.

    I read that Yugoslavia and its rump state, pre-destruction by NATO, Hungary, and Romania have to some degrees, integrated ‘roma’ populations, FYSR and it’s immediate successor seem to have been most successful, but I would bet my bottom yen that most of the ‘Roma’ have departed to be pests further west. Also sure that a few loyal and true assimilated remain.

  254. bwuce wee says:
    @Malla

    LOL?- i have no problem with that. my replies to you are menat to school you in debate. one must be very precise because debate is like chess, one wrong move and you are finished, whether you know it or not. we are actually in agreement, if you had let the material sink in rather than reacting emotionally. when i describe the penal system, i was not being idealistic, because i explained i do not support the penal system at all. i believe criminals should monetarily pay for their crimes, or be executed for their crimes. either/or depending on the situation. incarceration has no place in a free society. contradiction of terms. and assimilation- i explained that multi-culturalism can only destroy a community, society, or civilization- so it’s either assimilation or exile for newcomers(which is why gypsies are nomads- they KNOW they will not assimilate, it is cultural suicide)- whether they are refugees or immigrants or whatever. it is the same if you enter a new environment such as a desert or jungle, ‘adapt or die’. these are darwinian principles, they have nothing to do with humanist philosophies or religious morality. practicality and reality are the basis for my dissertations. ny the way, i have studied the bhagavad gita, the upanishads, the vedas, the ramayana, etc., and learned yoga when i was 10 years old. it helped me well when i began studying martial arts over 50 years ago. native americans were viewed and treated much as gypsies were, but you would be surprised at how many have assimilated. i never wore my heritage as a freak flag, it is merely an essential part of my being like a liver or kidney… unseen, but VITAL. allow me to give you some advice, never give up on, or forget your earliest thoughts, impulses, motivations.etc., in a nutshell DON’T FORSAKE THE OLD ROAD FOR THE NEW. one of my guiding principles- like the story of the blind men and the elephant has always guided me.

  255. @Here Be Dragon

    My cousin was dating a FOB Romani girl for decade or so. Throughout the entire time she never worked not even in any menial role. She used to stay around 5 days a week at his house, he lived with his parents, and go at the weekends to help her mother deal with the rest of her siblings off from school.
    She had 7 siblings her being the 1st and eldest. Romani have huge families and not just as a one off usually being 6-7 kids per family. Europe does seem to have had the crap of the bunch although the UK had a larger proportion when they had the open borders Schengen policy in place which I believe was around before they had Brexit.
    Unlike subsequent generations of immigrants who usually wind down the number of kids they have Romani don’t. They continuously have 7-9 kids from generation 1 to x. EU has been been totally reckless when it comes to these types, couldn’t think of a worse bunch to let in other than their upper caste tribal elder.

  256. bwuce wee says:
    @Drapetomaniac

    here is another definition of fascism, i had to get this from a 1996 dictionary because the internet only wants certain information to be promoted and if anything that dares slant against corporations is eradicated: fascism: 1.) a government system led by a dictator having complete power supressing opposition and criticism, REGIMENTING ALL INDUSTRY, COMMERCE, ETC., and emphasizing an agressive nationalism and often racism

    [MORE]

    1. don’t forget that hitler invented the european union- it was his idea.
    2. hitler’s political party was broke and would go nowhere until corporations bailed him out.
    3. communist revolution in russia shocked europe, rise of socialism followed. corporations did not want any part of this movement. in order to defeat this, they embraced fascism, the enemy of communism.
    4. FORD GENERAL MOTORS AND STANDARD OIL WERE Hitler’s BIGGEST SUPPORTERS

    https://dogandlemon.com/sites/default/files/cars_nazis.pdf

    “A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regimes in Germany and Italy. ”William E. Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to German 1937

    as i expained, mussolini established corporations to control EVERY facet of italian life. THAT WAS FASCISM. you apparently look at the past through the magnifying glass of the 21st century. that glass pinponts one aspect by ignores other important aspect. fascism did not appear in a vacuum. communism appearred before 1920. this terrifed corporations acrosss europe and the americas. corporations wer clamoring for fascism, because they have a great big say in fascism, whereas in communism, they cease to exist. so SURVIVAL of corporations created fascism. who do you think financed hitler- a penniless washout? corporations did. over 200 america corporations financed and supported hitler’s rise. you think they didn’t get their money’s worth!!! i assure you, they did get their money’s worth. standard oil(bush family), henry ford’s motors, general motors all financed and supported hitler.

    another dictionary:

    fascism: a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, PRIVATE ECONOMIC ENTERPRISE under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, etc.

    article on corporations and the NAZIS:

    A tragic tale of what can go wrong when profits are entangled with politics. Ciara Torres Spelliscy
    May 20, 2016

    It’s a largely forgot­ten piece of history, but in 1932 the German Nazi Party was facing finan­cial ruin. How did the Nazis move from being broke to being in control of the German govern­ment just a year later? The Nazi Party was bailed out by German indus­tri­al­ists in early 1933.

    The indus­tri­al­ists who led the way were two huge German firms, I.G. Farben and Krupp. Lead­ers of both of compan­ies were among the few civil­ians who were later charged with war crimes at the Nurem­berg Tribunals after World War II. These trials placed the story of their finan­cial and moral support of the Nazis into the histor­ical record. Krupp was a huge arms manu­fac­turer. I.G. Farben was a vast chem­ical company which made everything from Bayer aspirin to Zyklon B, the poison used in the gas cham­bers.

    Accord­ing to The Arms of Krupp, the Nazi Party was essen­tially bank­rupt in late 1932. Joseph Goebbels, who would later become the Minis­ter of Propa­ganda, complained, “[w]e are all very discour­aged, partic­u­larly in the face of the present danger that the entire party may collapse….The finan­cial situ­ation of the Berlin organ­iz­a­tion is hope­less. Noth­ing but debts and oblig­a­tions.”

    Regard­less of the party’s finan­cial prob­lems, Hitler was named Chan­cel­lor in late Janu­ary 1933. He called for elec­tions in early March. With less than two weeks left before the vote, Herman Goer­ing sent tele­grams to Germany’s 25 lead­ing indus­tri­al­ists, invit­ing them to a secret meet­ing in Berlin on Febru­ary 20, 1933. Attend­ing the gath­er­ing were four I.G. Farben direct­ors and Krupp chief Gustav Krupp. Hitler addressed the group, saying “private enter­prise cannot be main­tained in a demo­cracy.” He also told the men that he would elim­in­ate trade unions and commun­ists. Hitler asked for their finan­cial support and to back his vision for Germany.

    Accord­ing to Robert Jack­son, the former Supreme Court Justice and chief U.S. prosec­utor at Nurem­berg, “[T]he indus­tri­al­ist­s…be­came so enthu­si­astic that they set about to raise three million Reichs­marks [worth about \$30 million today] to strengthen and confirm the Nazi Party in power.”

    Gustav Krupp was the first exec­ut­ive to speak at the Berlin meet­ing, and pledged one million marks. As the United Nations summar­ized in a 1949 report, Krupp was a key finan­cier for the Nazi Party, includ­ing through his corpor­a­tion:

    It was clear from the evid­ence that Gustav Krupp embraced Nazism shortly prior to the seizure of power by the Nazi Party and contin­ued his alle­gi­ance there­after. He played an import­ant part in bring­ing to Hitler’s support other lead­ing indus­tri­al­ists and through the medium of the Krupp firm… from time to time made large scale contri­bu­tions to the [Nazi] Party Treas­ury.

    Hitler awar­ded Krupp the title of Fuhrer of Industry later in 1933.

    Krupp acted in concert with other busi­ness­men, includ­ing the direct­ors of I.G. Farben, then Europe’s largest corpor­a­tion. I.G. Farben’s full name was Interessen Gemeinsch­aft Farben­in­dus­trie Aktiengesell­schaft which trans­lates to “Community of Interest of the Dyestuffs Industry, Incor­por­ated” or as one of the Nurem­burg prosec­utors, Josiah DuBois Jr. in his book, The Devil’s Chem­ists, put it, the name was “like the cross between a service club and Easter eggs.” But what I.G. Farben did with the Nazis was no laugh­ing matter, includ­ing using slave labor at a specially-construc­ted plant at Auschwitz called Monow­itz.

    In the open­ing of the tribunal against the direct­ors of I.G. Farben, prosec­utor U.S. Gen. Telford Taylor stated: “The indict­ment accuses these men of major respons­ib­il­ity for visit­ing upon mankind the most sear­ing and cata­strophic war in human history. It accuses them of whole­sale enslave­ment, plun­der, and murder.”

    At the Febru­ary meet­ing, the I.G. Farben exec­ut­ives gave the Nazis 400,000 marks, and a total of 4.5 million marks by the end of 1933, accord­ing to The Crime and Punish­ment of I.G. Farben. This infu­sion of corpor­ate cash saved the Nazi Party from finan­cial disaster. The rest, as they say, is history — tragic, tragic history.

    As the book Hell’s Cartel explains, the history of the German indus­tri­al­ists’ support of Hitler shows “what can go wrong when polit­ical object­ives and the pursuit of profit become danger­ously entwined.” One can only surmise what might have happened if the busi­ness­men had simply said “no” to Hitler that night.
    ————-

  257. bwuce wee says:
    @bwuce wee

    i failed to make the distinction that the first police force in the united staes of america was:

    The first police department in the United States was established in New York City in 1844 (it was officially organized in 1845). Other cities soon followed suit: New Orleans and Cincinnati (Ohio) in 1852; Boston and Philadelphia in 1854; Chicago and Milwaukee (Wis.)

    thanks to alden for pointing out that an earlier dutch colony once had a police force, not the NYPD. BUT that does not negate the fact that irish immigrants who failed to assimilate were the reason for the NYPD’s creation.

  258. Joel Anon says: • Website

    Gypsies are known as Roma, but in Hebrew, their name is derived from the Egyptian city of Zoan, known as “the royal city of the Pharaohs” or Tanis (as the Targum says), at one time the royal and capital of the country; and in the English literature, described as “outlandish people calling themselves Egyptians.” And this is from Wikipedia (Romani people, but had disappeared since):

    The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Middle English gypcian, short for Egipcien; the medieval French referred the Romanies as Egyptiens.

    Hebrew: צוענים‎, romanized: Tzoanim. Derives either from the biblical Egyptian city of Zoan, or from the linguistic root צ־ע־נ‎, meaning “wander”

    Isaiah 30:4 For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.
    Ezekiel 29:12 “and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and will disperse them through the countries.”
    19 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.

    More from the biblical perspective, https://wulfstein.org/2022/03/28/who-are-the-gypsies/?preview_id=28185&preview_nonce=403b9216b3&preview=true

  259. frankie p says:
    @Sollipsist

    Let’s add to this the fact that he had only three fingers on his left hand that were capable of fretting notes on the fingerboard. Now that you mention it, Django met and played for Segovia, impressing him greatly. At the end of a long and beautiful piece, Segovia inquired about acquiring the written notation for what Django had just played. Of course Django just laughed and said “I was just improvising that.” This interaction highlights the difference in the processes of making music, classical and jazz. See Bill Evans youtube video from 1966 “Universal Mind of Bill Evans” for an elaborate explanation of these differences. You won’t be disappointed.

    • Thanks: Sollipsist
  260. @nokangaroos

    Aha, that explains some of the ridiculous sizes on offer – folders with blades over a foot long, and massively broad. So unwieldy I thought they were a gimmick, maybe useful for slaughtering livestock.
    The items I chose were less than half that, sold as “gypsy knives”, with the cool story.

    The gypsy theme seems popular, there were ads for “Gitanes”, featuring a brunette beauty, wherever I went.

  261. Skeptikal says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Normans were actually “Norse men.”

  262. Skeptikal says:
    @nokangaroos

    I see.

    It’s all the bats’ fault.

  263. @aldasfail770

    It makes all the difference what their origins are.

    If the Roma are indigenous to Eastern and South Eastern Europe then it is their native land. The way that they have been treated in this situation is little different than how Native Americans and others were treated while their land was being taken from them and are now marginalized – often called thieves and liars as well.

    Where would they be expelled too if they are indigenous? They are in their land already. The Slavs are the ones who should be expelled in this case, back to the steppes of NW Asia where they came from.

  264. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Larry, I take it that the ideas are not yours but taken from someone called George Washington Hosmer. I doubt it that he was fluent in Czech or Sanskrit so that, what he writes , is all his phantasy. Czech, unlike Hungarian, is an Indoeuropean language, just like German or Russian, hence claiming some remote similarity to Sanskrit is not a great discovery. But this Hosmer has some problems with logic. He claims that

    ‘The complexion, habits, and character of the Gypsies resemble those of the Cechs as nearly as they do those of the Hindoos.

    then he claims that

    As regards complexion, it is found that the Gypsies in the Austrian army, who have been compelled to relinquish their wild life and dwell in houses, are as white as Europeans generally.

    So the Czechs are dark like gypsies but gypsies become white if the serve in the Austrian army. Only a true moron can put such statements in writing. To take this absurdity further, I could claim that the gypsies I saw in Tamil Nadu were in fact Czechs or Bohemians, as you like it, but how the hell have they got there.

  265. karel says:
    @Here Be Dragon

    Hey man, I never wrote this
    that the Gypsies are descendants of Khazarian tribes, and he also considers that blue-eyed Hungarians descended from the Mongols.
    Be more careful and less postmodern, a pernicious fashion you should try to avoid.

    It is a great discovery that

    ethnic Czechs were called Bohemians

    I never thought of that but can ethnic Czechs be called Moravians?

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
  266. karel says:
    @Skeptikal

    Could be. I have also green eyes but have no gypsy ancestry. What a mystery.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  267. snag says:

    What’s the difference between Gypsies and Jews? What’s the percentage of Jews that hold a real job and produce something? They don’t pick pockets but they know how to exploit our welfare system especially those with double digit families.

    Anyone ever wondered how much we spend to protect their synagogues and institutions because they refuse to take a good look in the mirror, do some soul searching and ask themselves why they are hated so much everywhere they show up?

    How many Jewish organizations do we keep afloat by grants and subsidies? How much money do we lose by funny tax deductible donations that end up in Israel, how much do we pay to keep afloat their little bunker country because its regime doesn’t know or doesn’t want to coexist in peace with their neighbors? How much do we pay to buy a peace on their borders?

    In regard to screwing us up Gypsies are crawling puppies next to a pack of hyenas.

  268. @Dream

    It has nothing to do with race. An Ashkenazi Jew is perfectly allowed to marry an Indian or Ethiopian Jew. Close to 30% of Ashkenazis are married to Mizrahis. Interracial marriages are perfectly legal if they are Jewish.

    LOL you are making my point. Let’s rephrase that:

    We allow miscegenation. You just have to follow our marriage laws which “just happen” to strictly limit your racial options.

    Yes I’m sure Ashkenazis are just lining up to marry Ethiopians. Do we really need to go into all the games that the state of Israel has played with Ethiopian Jews?
    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-they-didn-t-want-ethiopian-jews-in-israel-either-1.5785804

    DNA tests are just one of the many methods to immigrate to Israel.

    That’s amusing.

    Let’s see what you originally claimed here:
    DNA test stories are exaggerated or downright stupid

    So you went from calling them stupid or exaggerated to acknowledging them as a standard method of gaining citizenship. They are a racial test for Jews and yet the MSM tells us that race has no biological basis. Hmmmm funny that Israel has a test for something that we are told doesn’t exist.

    You are out of your league here. Seriously go over to CNN or something where people don’t fact check anything.

    • Replies: @Dream
    , @Dream
  269. Skeptikal says:
    @bispora

    “Another possibility is that Romanoff ‘s article is a bullshit. ”

    Ha ha, not sure why he wrote it, although it was entertaining.

    I don’t know why Romanoff titled his piece “Introduction to Gypsies.” His knowledge seems rather flimsy and overinfluenced by what a geezer wrote about Gypsies back in 1866 and by what can be found on the Web. There is an immense amount of scholarly and other writings about Gypsies, much of it not in English.

    Furthermore, a lot of people already have had a serious interest in Gypsies and their history, have read maybe more than Romanoff, who seems to confine his sources to the Web, and don’t really need an “introduction” from him.

    Quite apart from the strong evidence of genetic studies, a strong ethnomusicological argument can be made that Gypsies carried musical and dancing traditions from India that influenced music and dance styles all along their route, as far as Spain and the Atlantic, especially but not only in the Muslim world.

    The film Latcho Drom provides plenty of this sort of evidence of how the typical “Gypsy” style of dancing as still done in Rajasthan was subtly transformed as the film travels west, through the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey, Greece and the Balkans, Hungary, Slovakia, France, Spain, following Gypsy groups and their music along the way. In the final segment, in Spain, you can see how what started in India turned into or deeply influenced what became the flamenco style. The basic moves, the features of the music (use of specific musical modes and rhythms) are there from the source in Rajasthan.

    Similar dancing styles were developed by Armenians. Just do a Youtube search for “Armenian wedding dance.” Armenians carried this music and dance to the West Coast of the USA, where there is a large Armenian community (Kardashians, anyone??). Armenians seem to have influenced the Middle Eastern music and dance scene also in the East, esp. in New York City. Some of the best dancers and musicians were Armenian.

    Anyone familiar with that scene in New York (at least as it was in the 1980s) immediately recognizes the styles of dance and music shown in much of the film (not much dancing in the central European segments). More folkloric groups’ (e.g., Moroccan, Turkish) style of dancing is similar to that the film’s opening segment in Rajasthan, as compared to the “nightclub” belly-dance style that developed in Cairo (and Istanbul) night clubs and then became popular in European and Western capitals as part of “Orientalism.” Performers came up with elaborate sexy beaded costumes that emphasized the effects of the complicated isolations that characterize this style. Percussion is provided by the dumbec player but also by the dancer’s mastery of brass finger cymbals (zills). Rhythms are complex. Basically the dancer’s whole body is percussive. It might look like just a sexy dance, but it takes a hell of a lot of musical and physical training to bring off a good performance. Appreciative audience members, also women, will stick a bill in the edges of the performer’s costume, just as in The Cobra Gypsies.

    Most night club-type performers also incorporate folkloric dances in their performances, with unusual five-, seven- or ten-beat time signatures and a lot of more folksy twirling and movement over the floor. Best is with live music of course—a typical group is oud, clarinet, guitar, dumbec, and maybe a bowed string instrument and maybe an accordion or concertina—and the dancer and band present a suite of different types of rhythms and dances, fast, slow, percussive, folkloric. When performers have finished their solo performance in a NYC club, they pull on a long dress over their costumes and get out on the floor and everyone dances together, pretty much in the style seen in some video clips on this thread.

  270. My reference to George Hosmer was clear. You seem to be trashing an author of whom you have no knowledge and, without any evidence, simply dismiss his writing as fantasy.

    You don’t know what Hosmer knew, neither the languages he spoke, nor his experience or qualifications. Since you have not been published in the Atlantic, it may be that his knowledge and expertise were much superior to your own.

    His statement that people abandoning a life in the wild would lose at least some of their “rustic” complexions can be easily supported. That claim is neither moronic nor absurd.

    When the man states, ‘The complexion, habits, and character of the Gypsies resemble those of the Cechs as nearly as they do those of the Hindoos”, he is clearly speaking from personal experience. We cannot simply trash his observations 150 years later, based on nothing but opinion.

    I’m not looking to start a war, but we seem to have a few “armchair quarterbacks” who have no personal knowledge, seem to have done no research, have no academic qualifications, yet feel compelled to pronounce personal (and very possibly uninformed) opinions as biblical truth, and can only resort to deprecating insults to dismiss contrary points of view. That isn’t helpful.

    My personal position is that this is a large, very interesting, and very complex area that will benefit from unbiased examination of all the possibilities. I very much doubt anyone has ‘the whole truth’, and even the DNA sequences were presented with caution.

    I am attaching here a few photos, mostly of European Gypsies being loaded onto train cars for deportation.

    • Replies: @karel
  271. snag says:
    @snag

    BTW, every time you buy some product with a kosher logo on it, eat in a restaurant, spend a night in a hotel or vacation in a kosher approved resort you pay extra and support parasites so they can produce more of their kind and squeeze you harder.

  272. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    A longer story, CM, will try to be concise. It would be amazing that Gypsy came to Europe with Vedic Sanskrit. No one stated this so far, it would really original. If we know (actually, we know!) who were Aryans that would answer many questions. Anyway, it is impossible that Gypsy brought thousands of Sanskrit words (one third) to Serbia which was at that time (13th c) the strongest kingdom in Europe with comprehensive written, legal system. Trickles of incoming, segregated and passing Gypsy nomads did not mix with locals and could not theoretically pass them any words. Ancient Serbian (i.e. proto-Slavic) language organically developed from the oldest and highest European culture in Lepenski Vir/Vincha and it is several 000 years old, much older than Latin, for e.g. not speaking of young languages such as English or German (12th and 14th cAC). Btw, English is a good reservoir which preserved many old Serbian words (for e.g. ghost, land, cat, vampire and many other). Serbian word MED (honey), which is a root for ‘medicine, medicament’, is adopted in more than 40 languages around the world.

    India and today’s Serbia are not ‘distant’ regions. For e.g. at the beginning of Alexander’s dynasty (814BC) there were not Bulgarians, Albanians, Rumanians, Hungarians, Bosnians, Croats, Germans, etc, Latin language still did not exist and Greeks still did not enter the world history. From Peloponnese to Baltic and India, China and Japan (!) was spoken ancient proto-Slavic (old Serbian) language from which evolved all Slavic languages (including modern Serbian, Russian, Polish, Czechs, etc) and Sanskrit as its local version in India. When Gypsy came to Serbia/Europe, the language there was fully formed and could not absorb many new words. For example, some complex family relationships (e.g. ‘husband’s brother’s wife’), which are pre-Vedic words are the same one word name in Sanskrit and modern Serbian. It would be strange if Gypsy brought the language from India only to today’s Serbia but not to surrounding nations, which existed in the 14-15th cAC, considering that they didn’t jump with parachute there. Txs for your attention.

    @Rebel Boy/Alden – I should say there ‘pretty light’ or ‘lighter than an average Gypsy’. Hope you will agree with me.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Commentator Mike
  273. Anon[239] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old and Grumpy

    My grandfather’s generation called Hungarians “Hunkies” as a term of derision. This was in Appalachia about 90 years ago.

  274. Skeptikal says:
    @karel

    Do you look like girl in the photo?

    I thought not!!

    • Replies: @karel
  275. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Vlad the Impaler is the national hero of Romania.

    People like Vlad Tepis should have been heroes for all Christian Europe, all the way to Iceland.

    Marathas are considered heroes by all Hindus for standing up to the foreign Islamic Mughals and other Muslim powers. Marathas are from the Maharashtrian ethnic group of western India (Bombay city), bu all Hindus throughout the subcontinent consider the founder of the Maratha Empire, King Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, a hero even if they are not Maharastrians themselves.

    Descendants of European Christendom (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox etc.. ) have no psychological unity against outsiders it seems.

  276. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There is a Serbian Aryan origin theory which runs parallel to the mainstream Aryan theory. I have no personal problem with that, I think Serbs are cool. I was pro-Milosevic, personally in the recent Yugoslav conflict. Some Serbian and Indian scholars have found extra ordinary similarity in between Sanskrit and Serbian.
    There are other theories like Indian origin theory of Aryans, first proposed by a British officer in service in the British Indian Imperial Army, Colonel Olcott, which is the favourite of Hindutva Nationalists in India today.
    Anyways, my DNA test says that my Y-chromosome originates in the Ukraine. Another friend of mine, a Bengali of my caste was also shocked by his result, the same result as mine. That is because, we Indians are brainwashed by the Hindutva nationalist, Indian origin of Aryans theory (which has become untenable/ nearly impossible now, with more genetic research). It seems Aryans went from Europe to Central Asia and then went down to the Iranian Plateau and Indian subcontinent, and intermixed with the earlier people. Anyways, my Bengali friend (a medical student) took a sudden interest in Ukraine, after knowing of his genetic results. Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian history. He even traveled there (Land of my great great great….great grand Dad), of course before the Russian military operation.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  277. Malla says:
    @Odyssey

    Serbian word MED (honey)

    Amazing, Hindi word for honey is ‘Madhu’, which is mostly of Sanskrit origin.
    Madhu-Med, similar.
    Even the English term ‘Mead’ which is made from honey.
    And in Hindi, sweet in the context of “sweet voice” is called ‘Madhur’, from the sweetness of honey.

    BTW, the Indian languages most similar to Sanskit/Prakrit in India today are Marathi of Western Indian subcontinent and Bengali of the Eastern Indian subcontinent. They are some of the Southernmost (Southernmost is Sinhalese of Sri Lanka) Aryan languages in the Indian mainland, south of these languages, the Dravidian languages start. So they were less influenced by Muslims even if Muslims ruled there. By Bengali, I mean the Bengalis spoken by Hindus, especially brahmins, Muslims speak a Bengali which is laden with foreign hindu/urdu etc… words.

  278. @snag

    How many Jewish organizations do we keep afloat by grants and subsidies?

    All of them. Every one.

    • Replies: @snag
  279. @Odyssey

    There are more Indians (i.e. Gypsies) in Serbia than Serbs in India. It’s possible that they brought some Indian words with them and gave them to the locals. The Turks with Islam brought many Arab words to the Balkans which are now part of the local languages. I was not implying that Gypsies imparted the language but perhaps some words.

    Serbs are Aryans but so are many other peoples.

    Lepenski Vir /Vincha civilisation may have originated a written script but we really can’t tell much, if anything, about their language.

    I see you date Alexander the Great’s dynasty some half a millennium earlier than is accepted. Where did you get that from?

    My view is that people move around and seldom completely displace the local populations, except for Europeans in America and Australia, but tend to mix with them. So it is quite possible that Serbs of today are a mix of some Slavs coming from the north and indigenous peoples who were there before. Look at the Mongol or Hun conquests: despite the popular view that they wiped everything out where they rode through you can hardly spot an old timer Mongol or Hun in Hungary or the other parts of Europe they apparently settled in – there are still Mongol/Asian looking physiognomies but I’d say less than one in a thousand among the traditional locals, excluding of course the new Chinese immigrants. And then there is the theory that Slavs originated from the Balkans. Or maybe they were always present in what are Slavic lands today and any migrations were internal within their own space.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
    , @Skeptikal
  280. Rahan says:
    @Odyssey

    Ancient Serbian language was brought 2000BC to India by Aryans where its local version became Sanskrit. Even now, there are several thousands of identical (22%) or very similar (11%) words between Sanskrit and modern Serbian

    The curse of the eastern european and even central asian post-soviet country: they are all the original aryans, they all come from sirius B, they all had flying pyramids, they all speak a language from which all other arise, and they all have a sacred fate to save the world.

    And they all had a huge englightened ancient empire which has been scrubbed from history books by satan.

    I assure readers that the Azov chaps are also the original aryans, also had flying pyramids back in the day, and so on. Even the bloody Slovaks had those no doubt. The Tajiks are the most entertaining.

    What would be fun though, is for some scientologist to incorporate all this into their doctrine, and for it to turn out that every eastern european and post-soviet nation is in fact a representative from a different planetary civilization, and they indeed all used to have star-spanning empires, of which dim memories survive to this day.

    • Replies: @karel
    , @Odyssey
  281. Rahan says:
    @Bro43rd

    That photo appears to me to be 2 smallish dudes with sports bras on.

    Next stop: autistic pony-identifying midgets dueling with hind leg kicks.

    Only an ableist nazi bigot would not celebrate this.

  282. Dream says:
    @John Johnson

    LOL you are making my point. Let’s rephrase that:

    We allow miscegenation. You just have to follow our marriage laws which “just happen” to strictly limit your racial options.

    Yes I’m sure Ashkenazis are just lining up to marry Ethiopians. Do we really need to go into all the games that the state of Israel has played with Ethiopian Jews?
    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-they-didn-t-want-ethiopian-jews-in-israel-either-1.5785804

    You are just being stupid. Seems I have to repeat – Ashkenazi Jews can marry Middle Eastern Jews but not Middle Eastern Muslims or Christians. Intermarriage between Ethiopians, while low, is still much higher than intermarriage with Palestinians( who are extremely close genetically and phenotypically as compared to Ethiopians). Sicilians and South Italians, who are genetically closest to Ashkenazis cannot marry Ashkenazis in Israel. You just don’t seem to grasp that those anti-“miscegenation” laws are just religious laws. 2013 Miss Israel was an Ethiopian – so much for “white” Jewish supremacy.

    Miscegenation between whites and blacks in USA has also drastically increased in the last 30 years. Attitudes change over time. Today white women are lining up to to have sex with black men, unlike in 1980.

    All media, both Israeli and Western, reports how “racist” Israel is towards Ethiopians. Here is a Wapo article. So much for Israelis being allowed to be racialists.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/05/08/why-ethiopian-jews-are-protesting-against-police-violence-in-israel/

    That’s amusing.

    Let’s see what you originally claimed here:
    DNA test stories are exaggerated or downright stupid

    So you went from calling them stupid or exaggerated to acknowledging them as a standard method of gaining citizenship. They are a racial test for Jews and yet the MSM tells us that race has no biological basis. Hmmmm funny that Israel has a test for something that we are told doesn’t exist.

    Yes downright stupid in the context that many on the far right believe that unless you are genetically “Jewish” you can’t immigrate to Israel. There is no such thing as a racial Jew in Israel. Jews of various races live together in Israel. Germany also allowed millions of ethnic Germans from Central Asia to get citizenship and immigrate there – does that mean Germany recognises “German” race?

    Here are the Bnei Menashe- what Dna test did they pass?

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/3000th-bnei-menashe-touches-down-in-israel/amp/

    You are out of your league here. Seriously go over to CNN or something where people don’t fact check anything.

    Not only do you lack knowledge about Israel, but you you also seem to be lacking in reading and comprehension skills.

  283. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Larry, it seems a mystery to me why you are studbornly defending the idiocy of this Honser.

    1. As an American he had probably difficulties to find Bohemia on a map. He provides no evidence that he has ever visited Bohemia, nor that he could speak any Czech. He has even problem with spelling and copying the name Žižka.

    I can send you a pic. of mine from Prague and speak to you in Czech (give me your tel. No., if you do not believe me), but you would probably not understand a word.

    2. The insinuation that

    Since you have not been published in the Atlantic, it may be that his knowledge and expertise were much superior to your own.

    I might somehow be interested in publishing in the Atlantic makes me laugh. I publish in scientific articles not in such a rag intended for a popular consumption.

    3. Your statement concerning

    His statement that people abandoning a life in the wild would lose at least some of their “rustic” complexions can be easily supported. That claim is neither moronic nor absurd.

    is just absurd. So, Gypsies in the Austrain army, unlike Czechs, when forced to wash, look like “Europeans”. I have no evidence whether my great grand uncle Emanuel, who served in the cavalery at the turn of the 19th century actually washed himself like the gypsies in the infantery, but other members our family have miraculously lost their “rustic” complexion in the course of just three generations. Perhaps you may have an explanation for this metamorposis.

    4. I would strongly recommend you to follow your own words

    I’m not looking to start a war, but we seem to have a few “armchair quarterbacks” who have no personal knowledge, seem to have done no research, have no academic qualifications,

    I wonder what academic qualifications you have . Have you ever published anything in a respectable peer review journal? Just show it. Are you a student or long retired?

    5. If you are so interested in the life of gypsies, why not to read

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24419/24419-h/24419-h.htm

    whos author actually visited Bohemia. I have more faith in what the reverend G. R. GLEIG, M.A. wrote, than in the confused bleating of Honser.

    Gleig described a youth referred to as a “torpinda”, another expression for a gypsy as follows

    There is no denying that the whole appearance of this youth was very picturesque, but it was a great deal more picturesque than attractive. His long shaggy hair and dark olive complexion were alike remarkable; but the expression of his countenance was decidedly bad, and he never looked you straight in the face. To be sure, the treatment which, in common with others of his class, he probably receives from the Bohemians, is not calculated to make him fall in love with them; for the people of the country seem to regard these wanderers with a mixture of contempt and loathing. Yet I imagined that I read in that downcast look, and in the stealthy air which attached to all his movements, marks of the sort of training which may be expected to produce an accomplished vagabond. I dare say that young fellow knew perfectly well how to silence the cackling of a barn-door fowl in a hurry, and might not be inexpert in the operation of removing quietly a knapsack, or other load, from beneath a sleeping man’s head. But the thews and sinews of the boy, and I may add, of all of his tribe whom we encountered, were not such as to impress me with any very exalted ideas of their strength or prowess. I fancied that, with the aid of a good stick, I should not be afraid to give any three of them the knives of which I had heard so much, and then join battle.

    When the boy was gone we proceeded to question our landlady as to the habits of his people, and we received from her an account corresponding in all respects with that which our first informant had given us. She added, over and above, that there was no trusting them; that they were deceitful to a degree unparalleled among men, and that no arts or offices of kindness ever won their forbearance. We listened to her statements more than half disposed to credit them, yet we adhered to our original determination, nevertheless, of joining the first gypsy camp on which, during the course of our tour, we might stumble.

  284. karel says:
    @Rahan

    haha. Are Germans also ”East Europeans,” so that they could rightly refer to themselves as Aryans? There are hypotheses floating around that Germans are swamp people coming from regions around Dniepr.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  285. Odyssey says:
    @Malla

    Very well, my Bengali colleague’s name is Madhu. Percentages I mentioned (22% identical and 11% very similar) came from Tagore’ ggranddaughter who studied Serbian and Slavic languages for 30 years and found that Serbian and Bengali are the most similar to Sanskrit. You can use Google translate and check which languages around you in South and Central Asia adopted MED (e.g. Urdu and Pashtun yes, Tamil – no. You will be surprised, and you will see the Aryans’ reach. An English guy told me that they still have bottled ‘mead’. This is actually ancient proto-Slavic alcoholic drink ‘medovina’ made from honey. ‘Veda’ is also a proto-Slavic (Serbian) word.

    • Replies: @karel
  286. @Malla

    If Gypsies are Indians, then there is a corollary, that Indians… are Gypsies.

  287. Odyssey says:
    @Rahan

    You simply cannot hide your frustration. I bet you are an oit who thinks that Aryans originated in India and populated the whole world from there (not one left in India), only they don’t know when this happened. So, let me open your eyes if there is any hope. Aryans were proto-Slavics, it means that all modern so-called Slavic nations – Serbs, Russians, Ukrainians (incl. Azov), Slovaks, Polish, Czechs, etc, even Bosnian Muslims and Croats can claim Aryan ancestry. All their languages evolved from old Serbian. Aryans brought this language to India where became Sanskrit, so as Rg Veda and mythology. Hindu mythology and deities are very similar to old Slavic mythology. I can provide you several thousands of Serbian toponyms in South and central Asia. I think that Tajiks also have high percentage of Slavic genetics and they also can claim Aryans’ ancestry so as millions of Indians.

    Yes, significant portion of Germans have Serbian origins (even Adolf mentioned this in his book). Prussians are genetically Serbs, germanised in the 12 cAC but spoke Serbian until 200 years ago when it was prohibited. Serbs founded Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig, etc and gave them Serbian names. Germans lived in today’s France, the river Rhine was the historic border btw Germans and Serbs. Over time Germans destroyed Serbian Baltic kingdoms and conquered their land. All old toponyms, especially in E.Germany were Serbian.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  288. @Malla

    Pali has many Slavic and Latin sounding words.

    My point was about how do we decide who originated certain words and loaned them to whom. We obviously have to establish that those words were in one original language longer than in the other which imported it. If you travel you may come across cultures, folklore, terms, words and toponyms which remind you of another but it is arrogant to claim one’e own culture and language preceded the other without being able to furnish concrete evidence that it is indeed so, only because you spotted an identity or a similarity.

  289. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    CM, there are 16% of Indians with Slavic’s genetics, so, you can calculate. I don’t know any Gypsy word which was adopted by Serbs. Even, if this is the case, it would be similar situation in all other Euro countries. Do they have thousands of such words as Serbs have?

    As I mentioned in the other comment, all modern Slavic nations, so as 100+ millions of Indians can claim Aryans’ ancestry, but in 2000 BC they spoke ancient Serbian (proto-Sanskrit) language and had proto-Slavic genetics. Lepenski Vir/Vincha is a place where originated the oldest EU civilisation immediately after the Ice Age. At the height of IA, probably 90-95% of European people lived there and later on migrated in all directions.

    In 814 BC, the Alexander’s ancestor was appointed to be ‘karan’ (something as a mayor) in Voden (Watery) in today’s Greece (after almost 3000 years, this place was renamed to Greek name, so as 1000 other places). This admin position wasn’t hereditary but, somehow it was transformed by him and his sons. They established a dynasty (I can give you all names), expanded the land, created the kingdom and at some stage changed its name to Serbian name – Macedonia, etc, etc. So, Alexander’s dynasty lasted for about 500 years. Of course, they were NO Greeks, who, in 814BC, were still squatting in the Dark, waiting for the wild card to participate in the first fake Olympic games and to officially enter the world history.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  290. Skeptikal says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I met an Austrian family who lived in Vienna, at music festival in Horn. This was, I believe, in 1982.
    The mother was quite dark, with very dark hair and dark eyes. Square face.
    Likewise, the daughter.
    In chatting about our backgrounds they imparted with pride the information that their daughter had the Mongolian dot. I had never heard of this!

    Gypsies I saw in Olomouc, Moravia, in 1992, were definitely a sad-looking group.
    Children and teens would hang out about around the fountain in the main square.
    No adults to be seen with them. They did not look healthy. Quite a few had cross eyes, matted hair, poorly shaped heads/jaws, very crooked teeth, etc.
    I wondered about the possible effects of alcoholism on fetuses, not to mention the general family circumstances. Or perhaps these health issues were the result of endogamy. It seems like the fortunes and appearance of different groups of Gypsies has a great deal to do with the actual clan they are in.
    Olomouc is not that far from the Slovak border.
    This was the spring of 1992, prior to the referendum regarding the separation of Bohemia and Moravia from Slovakia.
    Many of the “westerners” wanted to get rid of the Gypsies—push those in the Czech Lands into Slovakia, one way or another. They were seen to belong to Slovakia, not Czechia.
    As for “Cechs” (that spelling works only with a diacritical on the C*) looking like Gypsies, all I can say is, these “Cechs” probably were Gypsies!

    As for “The Cechs are an eminently gay and musical race,” in my experience and to my knowledge, it is the Moravians who are the very musical segment of the total Czechia population. The musical education starts early, with serious choral training for children, participation in dancing circles, etc.
    Many uni students in Olomouc had dual majors one of which was music, e.g., physics and music, pedagogy and music. Singing in the uni chorus requiring some knowledge of music theory and serious ear training (warmup: “Up a fifth; . . . down a minor third . . .”).
    In my experience the Czechs are somewhat dour; however, they are very good athletes. I believe that a lot of the nationalistic movement in the 19th century was rooted in athletic clubs of various sorts.

    *Wiki: “The Czech Republic’s official formal and short names at the United Nations are Česká republika and Česko in Czech, and the Czech Republic and Czechia in English.”

  291. Anonymous[331] • Disclaimer says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    “Vampires” and “Werewolves” are a relic of cave man days, when under the direction of a Shaman, in a cave, to the accompaniment of simple music, the young are initiated into the adult life by being “transformed” themselves into hunting animals, wearing animal skins, in order to learn how to hunt from their example. Hermes is a “psychopomp” who leads beings into the afterworld, or into the underworld. It is actually a common mass group phenomena today at rock concerts or raves.

    There is an exhibit in the American Museum of Natural History, where Amerindian men in animal costumes made out of real hides and claws, ritually appear at certain times of the year and snatch unsuspecting children to take them into the forest for several weeks to teach them the secrets of the tribe. The phenomenon is called “Maennerbund” in the history of religions. But the “transformation” model also exists in “secret societies,” such as the Freemasons, the Templars, the CIA, criminal gangs such as the Mafia, the Hell’s Angels, the SS, and so on. A propensity for wearing leather is a clue. To become an animal implies being “free” and is accompanied by acts which polite society considers criminal, such as slashing peoples faces in the New York subways, in order to be accepted into the group. Or, even better, to kill someone, randomly, for the sake of acceptance and a blood bond to the group. And it actually is the model for religions, because if you can transform yourself into an animal, you can transform yourself into an Angel, or even better.

    There are parts of the world where the Maennerbund mentality is more deeply rooted, and more strongly manifest. Romania is one of them, still today, and so is Siberia, and among American Indian tribes. And Africa, and India, and South America. Remember “Sitting Bull” and “Crazy Horse?” Another is “Georgia” in the Caucasus, whose real name, Gurjistan, means “land of the wolf,” that is, the Werewolf, in Persian. Then there is Hyrcania in Iran, which also means “land of the wolf” which Firdawsi called the “land of the two footed wolves” and which for this reason figures as the name of the Maccabee-Hasmonean dynasty, an allusion to their transmoral nature, since, strictly speaking, exoteric religions prohibit such things whereas esoteric religions promote them. But the Maennerbund, or animal transformation society, is found everywhere in the human species.” In Zoroastrianism, the Maennerbund societies, such as the Arya Haoma Varka, or “Aryan Haoma Wolves” were singled out for their abuse of mind transforming drugs. They glugged the Haoma, instead of using it sparingly. There is nothing new under the Sun.

  292. Rahan says:
    @Odyssey

    You certainly have the right to the proto-Serbian mega-civilization theory, and hopefully people will see your posts and enrich their worldviews.

    Perhaps the Montenegrin reader will suddenlt realize that it was ancient proto-montenegrins who did all this and thus all of Europe are mongrelized Montenegrins. Or mongrelized Slovaks etc.

  293. Rahan says:
    @karel

    Jokes aside, what we call “Eastern Germany” was indeed Slavic

    The “Prussians” and the “Russians” may not be such a cosmic fluke in the sense of name similarities.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @Odyssey
  294. karel says:
    @Skeptikal

    Perhaps at midnight but I have green eyes.

  295. Dream says:
    @John Johnson

    Let’s see what you originally claimed here:
    DNA test stories are exaggerated or downright stupid

    So you went from calling them stupid or exaggerated to acknowledging them as a standard method of gaining citizenship. They are a racial test for Jews and yet the MSM tells us that race has no biological basis. Hmmmm funny that Israel has a test for something that we are told doesn’t exist.

    Also, the DNA test method is quite recent and rarely utilised.

    In response to the petition, the state said that only in a few cases was an appeal made to the president of the chief rabbinical court for approval to do genetic testing. In 2013, no such inquiries were made; in 2014, only one was made; in 2015, there were no inquiries; in 2016, there were seven; in 2018, there were six, and in 2019 (through May) there was just one.

    The data also show that in 2017, 3,868 people applied to have their Judaism confirmed and 96 percent of the requests were approved; in 2018, there were 3,451 applications and 97 percent were approved. “These figures speak for themselves. The vast majority of the applications were approved, only in a very few cases was a request for genetic testing made,” Sohlberg wrote.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-high-court-allows-dna-testing-to-prove-judaism-1.8439615

  296. @karel

    I never wrote that the Gypsies are descendants of Khazarian tribes, and he also considers that blue-eyed Hungarians descended from the Mongols. Be more careful and less postmodern.

    I know, that was my own observation. You did not write that, I did.

    It is a great discovery that ethnic Czechs were called Bohemians. I never thought of that, but can ethnic Czechs be called Moravians?

    No.

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica,

    “Czech language, formerly Bohemian is spoken in the historical regions of Bohemia, Moravia, and southwestern Silesia in the Czech Republic, where it is the official language.”

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Czech-language

    “Bohemia, historical country of central Europe that was a kingdom in the Holy Roman Empire and subsequently a province in the Habsburgs’ Austrian Empire. From 1918 to 1939 and from 1945 to 1992, it was part of Czechoslovakia, and since 1993 it has formed much of the Czech Republic.”

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Bohemia

    The British have their own views regarding history, often inaccurate and sometimes absolutely incorrect.

    • Replies: @karel
  297. @anonymous

    RE: The language is closely related to the languages of northern India, particularly Punjabi.

    This is why many believe that the name GYPSY did not come from the erroneous assumption that these people were from EGYPT. The Armenian word, PUNJABTSI means a person hailing from the Punjab. That is the eytmological origin of GYPSY.

    There are also other words used by Armenians to describe the Roma such as Posha and Kunchu.

  298. @Old and Grumpy

    Many studies have been done revealing the linguistic and DNA links between Basques and Armenians.
    There is much on the Internet if you search.
    The founders of Basque national historiography — Esteban de Garibay, Andres de Posa and Baltasar de Echave— all considered Armenia as the original homeland of the Basques.
    https://tamarnajarian.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/the-armenian-origin-of-basques/

  299. Mefobills says:
    @bwuce wee

    A syndical or syndicate system is what Mussolini was aiming for. It was an evolution of the guild system. These guilds answer to the imperial center, an authoritarian government.

    Your posting only proves the case.

    A corporatocracy like in the west is rule by corporations and the hidden finance capital owner class.

    • Replies: @bwuce wee
  300. Muggles says:

    until it was discovered that this nation of people were Mongols and migrated from Western Mongolia centuries ago to form a new homeland more or less in the center of Eastern Europe. So far as I am aware, no one yet knows how or why that would have occurred.

    Re: the origin of the Magyars in (now) Hungary.

    The recent book on the Jochid Mongol horde (The Horde,Marie Favereau, 2021) founded by Genghis’s oldest son documents how the Golden Horde moved west into Europe and ruled for several centuries in various parts of Eastern Europe and central Asia. Roughly 1200-1400 AD.

    Various sub hordes, which were traveling bands of warriors and families, moved along river drainage’s and sometimes totally broke away from their parent hordes in succession disputes.

    It is entirely possible that the Magyars were based on this. Although far earlier “Mongolian” and Turkic warrior groups had at various times invaded west (often generically called Huns).

    Much of the “Slavic” aspect to many Eastern Europeans and Russians is attributed to the Mongol genetic influence. It seems clear that for centuries tribal groups from Central Asia moved west to secure better grazing land or to escape capture by rival bands and tribes. Hungary was easy to travel to with horses and carts, lacking large eastern mountain barriers.

    Not unlike those other groups who invaded and settled in western and northern Europe, though with different racial founding stock. Their “invasions” were earlier and from the Iran/Caucasus regions.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    , @Odyssey
  301. karel says:
    @Here Be Dragon

    Forget encyclopedia britannica. It is important how the native speakers describe they own language, not some foreign tribes.

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
  302. Update on Origin

    I have a friend in India who has my respect as an excellent historian and scholar. I asked his input on the origin of the Gypsies. This was his initial reply:

    “All convention wisdom points to their being from India.” That will no doubt please some readers. However, he added a qualification that I had never seen before. He wrote:

    “Or one tribe part migrated to India and part to Europe.”

    This is certainly plausible, and raises a multitude of possibilities. It would answer some questions about why there is no evidence of a mass migration of Gypsies from India to the Balkans, at least none that can categorically be linked to the Gypsies. It would also explain the DNA test results; if there were one original Gypsy tribe that split and migrated to both India and Europe, we would expect genetic coherence, and this would explain much of the similarity in language, customs, music, behavior.

    I haven’t enough information at the moment to expand on this theory, but it is intriguing and deserves investigation. I shall make additional posts if I can obtain more detailed information.

    • Replies: @antitermite
    , @karel
  303. @karel

    Depending on who you are talking to. I am with you on this one but we are speaking with the Brits here.

    You did not tell me what you think about the people in the video.

    • Replies: @karel
  304. Here is a trailer for a documentary I saw a few years ago about the Gypsies of Scotland:

    The full documentary can be seen here:
    https://www.folkstreams.net/films/gypsies-sing-long-ballads

  305. Skeptikal says:
    @ginger bread man

    “And she’s gone with the raggle-taggle Gypsies, O! ”

    BTW, the tune of this great old ballad sounds kind of gypsy-like!

    According to Christy Moore “The Raggle-Taggle Gypsies” is a Gypsy song, “one of many” that he learned from the group Planxty:

    Some interesting hints in this song, such as “yellow Gypsy’s lips” . . .

  306. @Larry Romanoff

    That is how I always understood it – migration doesn’t occur in just one direction.

    Of course this then begs the question of where Gypsies did originate from.
    Somewhere closer to India than to Europe presumably?
    The Gypsies themselves don’t know.

  307. karel says:
    @Here Be Dragon

    I know the video. The gypsies on the video look just like the beggars, I encountered in Tamil Nadu except that those I saw there had a lighter skin. The extravagant gold accessories is a typical sign of gypsiness, if I may call it that way.

    • Thanks: Here Be Dragon
  308. @Fisk Ellington Rutledge IV

    Let me know how to steal an empty country, I’d like to speak with the owners about it. You live in a delusional fantasy and are jealous of the Israeli success at building their State, which is populated mostly by middle eastern people anyway.

    There is a huge Jewish connection with Palestine, and the classic Orthodox Jew doesn’t look anything like a Turk. There is zero Arab connection with Palestine, since they forgot about it and dwindled to less than half a million people just 15o years ago.

    Tell me how a horse backed tribe of mounted warriors became Ashkenazi Jews who are mysteriously similar to all the other Jews in places like Spain and North Africa, the Levant and Asia Minor.

  309. @Larry Romanoff

    Completely!! I lived in Spain many years, and they were DEFINTELY INDIAN. Very dark, and similar to Pakistani tribals. Not Dravidian from south India, but the explanation of NW India makes perfect sense.

  310. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    I haven’t enough information at the moment to expand on this theory, but it is intriguing and deserves investigation. I shall make additional posts if I can obtain more detailed information.

    You never seem to have enough information to justify your preposterous claims. How about the idea that gypsies came to India together with the Aryans? Have you ever heard of the cult of fire?

  311. karel says:
    @Odyssey

    Madhu is also a common Iranian name, I used to know two men of that name. It means honey or sweet. The only European name that is similar, I can think of, is Medard. There was even a saint of that name, but its supposed meaning is violent, not sweet. So everything is much more complex and one should not be fooled by superficial similarities. For instance, the Czech epression for a bear is medved, containing two Sanskrit word roots, i.e. med and veda, clumsily translatable as honey scientist. or honey connoisseur.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  312. @Libertarian66

    The author is a retard who wants to make some weird point because he is obsessed with the idea that European Jews are really Turkic Khazars and “aren’t really don’t not” something else. Horse mounted warriors became accountants and actors and Polish villagers over the next centuries and then everybody got to live in each other’s mind forever because the interwebs and some books nobody read.

    Even the photos in this screed show plump, “Injun” looking people, one woman in particular. Every typical Gypsy and all of the Gypsies I ever saw in Europe were Indian by appearance, right back to NW Indian, like a tribal Pakistani. Of course people diverge and mix with others over time, so there are many different gypsies since “race” is only one aspect of human existence. People have a hard time grasping “race”, but I can say many native Spaniards looked “Indian”, often very close.

    • Agree: bispora, bispora
  313. Odyssey says:
    @Rahan

    R – You know few things and you can choose to be a constructive interlocutor (as for e.g. CM), to present, challenge and ask questions or a bshiter on duty, it is up to you.

    The map is so-so, but it presents some things. It is a bit late map because in earlier periods Germans were located on the west bank of Rhine in today’s France. We can see some big Serbian tribes as Bodrici (Obodrite), Ljutici (Leibnitz, the founder of German Academy of Science and Martin Luther originated from them), Empress Katarina II was also a Serb.

    Russians and Prussians got their names from Raseni or Rashani, the followers of the ancient goddess of agriculture Reasa (or Rasa). This is also an alternative name for Serbs and the name of their medieval state. It is better known as its Greek reading – Thracians, for whom Herodotus said that they were the biggest nation in the world after Indians. The followers of the god Serbon were warriors. From Serbian word ‘rasa’ originated the English word ‘race’ which has the same meaning as ‘serb’ (‘cousin, relative, the member of the same race’) which was the original name for future Slavics and preserved only by Balkan and Lusitanian Serbs.

  314. Odyssey says:
    @karel

    Yep, ‘Iranian’ actually came from ‘Aryan’. The second wave of Aryans went to Iran and further down up to the Golf and now we have many Golf Arabs with Slavic genes. It is a complex stuff, we can talk about this, you may find (Google translate) almost 50 languages, even In Africa, which adopted ‘med’. ‘Ved’ in the ‘medved’ does not mean ‘veda’ i.e. ‘science’. I will write more when time comes. ‘Veda’ is a Serbian word, it is commonly translated as ‘knowledge’ but the literal meaning is the ‘vision’ or ‘sight’ (coming from ‘vid’). It means that the real knowledge was considered what one saw with his own eyes. Even now we have a similar expression – ‘seeing is believing’. Ch.

    • Replies: @Peter Rabbit
    , @karel
    , @Sparkon
  315. Patlamish says:

    See if you can detect the ethnic influences on this song, Saraiman, sung by ROMICA PUCEANU.

    The video that her music is set to is a scene from the famous Russian-produced romance/folklore film, The Gypsy Camp Goes to Heaven. This film features authentic singing/dancing of local Gypsies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsies_Are_Found_Near_Heaven

    • Thanks: Skeptikal, Robjil
    • Replies: @Patlamish
  316. Sparkon says:
    @Muggles

    Mongols … migrated from Western Mongolia centuries ago to form a new homeland more or less in the center of Eastern Europe. So far as I am aware, no one yet knows how or why that would have occurred.

    the Golden Horde moved west into Europe and ruled for several centuries in various parts of Eastern Europe and central Asia. Roughly 1200-1400 AD.

    Yes, and that period corresponds with the beginning of the Little Ice Age.

    https://climatechange.medill.northwestern.edu/2015/02/09/little-ice-age-spurs-mongol-invasion/

    No doubt, entirely natural climate change has played a very large but often overlooked role in the migrations of various peoples going back far into the long eons of human prehistory when people first began to develop language.

    Yeah, the words can get in the way, but they’re all that separates humans from the other snarling beasts of the jungle.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  317. Skeptikal says:
    @Here Be Dragon

    Beautiful people.

    I love this musical tradition, as exemplified by the man with the reed instrument at the end–not so much the Western pop rhythms at the beginning, which IMO do not lend themselves to the dance way of these people.

    It’s too bad the white woman with the camera didn’t get up and dance.

    The Gypsies hosts would have been delighted.

    • Agree: Here Be Dragon
  318. Skeptikal says:
    @Sparkon

    I have read that the westward migrations were spurred by “rumors” of green lands in the west with plenty of rain and rivers and verdant country.

    Who wouldn’t want that?

    Seems like a no-brainer, actually.

  319. @halfhearted

    I thought it was completely common knowledge – at least for anyone with an interest in and reading knowledge of Nazi Germany – that the Gypsies as a group were sent to the work-camps alongside the Communists, agitators, rabid left-wing “intellectuals” (the vast majority of all those being anti-White Jews), and the other layabouts, wasters and criminals who would never agree to work for the Reich by choice. My own history lessons at school – a very long time ago – certainly mentioned this, but I doubt they are even mentioned today. That is simply because, since 1945, all we have heard about is the all-encompassing world-shattering tragedy of the entirely unprovoked Jew oppression of the “Holocaust” (TM), and the uniqueness of the Jew experience of suffering – but in fact thousands of non-Jews were also interned over the 12 years for good reason – many of them Gypsies.

    The social reputation of Gypsies across civilised White Europe for centuries, as outlined in this fine focussed article, was unchanged from what it remains today. In fact, you might say, just like that of the Jews.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/gypsies-and-the-holocaust-1779660

  320. Ed Case says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    That cannot be a permanent response to temporary oppression, surely?

    Agree, otherwise, why didn’t Cossacks behave like Gypsies.
    I’ve met plenty in Australia, no doubt their origin is in India.;

  321. @Larry Romanoff

    Indians are Caucasians. Which is a classification based on bone structure not on skin colour. In fact many non Europeans can look European – you yourself believe the Magyars are not originally European. Light skinned North Africans, middle easterners, Iranians and Indians can look Mediterranean. The Roma look more non European than many Iranians.

  322. Odyssey says:
    @Muggles

    “Much of the “Slavic” aspect to many Eastern Europeans and Russians is attributed to the Mongol genetic influence.”

    >> It seems that you have no idea about genetics. Which genetic influence, which haplogroups, which physiognomy? How this influence reflected on, for e.g., Polish, Prussians or Serbs?

  323. @Odyssey

    Serbian is an Indo-European language. It is descended from proto-Indo-European. Sanskrit, Lithuanian, Russia, Latin, Greek, etc. are all descended from Proto-Indo-European. You seem to think that the other Indo-European languages are descended from Serbian. That is upside-down. And inside-out.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  324. karel says:
    @Odyssey

    Ved’ in the ‘medved’ does not mean ‘veda’ i.e. ‘science’. I will write more when time comes. ‘

    Yes it does. In Czech, věda mean science and the verb vědět means to know , conoscere in italian.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  325. Got my pocket picked by a couple of gypsy women near the Baths of Diocletian once. One grabbed my umbrella as a diversion. No end of hassles with gypsies in Rome.

  326. Sparkon says:
    @Odyssey

    I think the Russian word for bear, medved, means or derives from “honey leader.”

    мед – honey
    ведеть – (to) lead
    медвед – bear

    However, this article claims the Russian word/name medved for bear derives from honey eater:

    https://brewminate.com/a-history-of-the-changing-use-of-the-bear-as-a-symbol-of-russia/

    My Russian is not that strong, but this article doesn’t mention any form of вед (ved) as a root word for eating, although it’s probably not comprehensive.

    https://blogs.transparent.com/russian/words-for-eating-in-russian/

  327. @Malla

    By Bengali, I mean the Bengalis spoken by Hindus, especially brahmins, Muslims speak a Bengali which is laden with foreign hindu/urdu etc… words.

    I am told shortly before the outbreak of the civil war in Bosnia muslims in Sarajevo started greeting their fellow Slavs – the Serbs and the Croatians – with a mix of Turish and Arabic words.

    So they were less influenced by Muslims even if Muslims ruled there.

    How do you explain that it was not difficult for the Muslims and the British to take control of India partially or not and to rule it ?

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  328. Odyssey says:

    @ Sparkon – Excellent, the first meaning.

    @ Karel – your Czech translation is ok but this ‘ved’ (medved) is not ‘veda’. Have a look Sparkon’s explanation. I will write few words about such important word as ‘veda’ is (e.g. Rg Veda brought by Aryans and impossibility that, as CM speculate, that Gypsy brought some Sanskrit words back to Europe)

    @Charles Martel France – Excellent observation, too. Communist gave to Bosnian Muslims a separate nationality (Muslims with a capital M, compering to ‘muslim’ as a religion). Before, they declared themselves Serbs of Mohamedian fate. They radicalised in 90ies under influence S.Arabia, Turkey, US and Britain and start inventing characteristics of new nation. It was difficult without history and a separate name and language. So, in late 90ies they named themselves Bosniacs and introduced some Turkish words in their Serbian language which declared – Bosnian language. Not surprisingly, US recognised this language and it is now an official language although there are no differences from native Serbian language.

    @ AnotherJack – just a remark, it is interesting that Diocletian spent less than a week in Rome. He was an Serbian who was born, ruled and retired in a village close to Sirmium, 40 km from Belgrade. The tetrarchy replaced him, again two Serbs, Constantine and Licinius. Constantine prevailed, legalised Christianity, etc.

    @Peter Rabbit – Excellent observation, too, I will make a separate comment for this.

  329. ddr says:

    Read the article and all comments all the way down. Learned that the autor knows amost nothing on the subject. In comparison most commenters are way above his knowledge. There are also a very knowledgeable Indian, a sober Czech and two delusional Serbians.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  330. Patlamish says:
    @Patlamish

    Some scenes from the film

  331. Odyssey says:
    @ddr

    And your nationality is? A Bshitter on duty? I bet you are afraid to say. A frustrated coward without any knowledge who cannot contribute anything? I challenge you to find one incorrect among two dozen of my assertions and crash my credibility for all other. Speak now or remain silent forever.

  332. Odyssey says:
    @Peter Rabbit

    This one is a really Big and I will try to be brief and comprehensive. Thanks to Larry for providing a framework for such important discussion. We know that old (and new, too) history is falsified. Consequently, we officially do not know who Aryans were, although we know their specific genetics, language, mythology, toponyms, anthropology.

    My assertion is that the term ‘indo-european’ is meaningless and without any substance. Let’s use the basic logic. In 2000BC, Aryans came to India and brought their language which became Sanskrit. All agree that Sanskrit in India did not exist before 2000BC. All languages you mentioned are much younger (e.g. Russian – not older than the 8th cAC, Lithuanian much younger, even Latin and Greek are much younger than Sanskrit. So, all these languages could not evolve from PIE than from Aryan language. Scholars, for 200 years cannot make any progress because they started from wrong premises.

    Back to the Aryan language. We know that Aryans were proto-Slavics. They called themselves ‘cousins, relatives, members of the same race’, i.e. SRB (Serb). Because, we call their language ‘Srbski’ i.e. (ancient) ’Serbian’, which originated in Lepenski Vir/Vincha during and after the Ice Age (12000BC). The oldest languages do not have vowels and can be easily distinguished from younger languages which have a lot of vowels. Because, we have the original name ‘Srb’, while this name in all other (younger) languages is – Serb. In Serbian language ‘R’ can be a vowel and consonant. I can (will) provide some linguistic examples.

    You (or someone else) may try to tell us where so-called (proto)IE originated, its meaning and what is its timeframe. What is the link between Latin and Sanskrit or English and Sanskrit? The original Greek language (they got their name at Alexander’s time) was not so-called ‘indo-european’, but it became after adopting the language from indigenous people in today’s Greece who gave them their name.

    We can use one example from English (for e.g. ‘ghost’) and explain its origin (maybe CM can give it a try?).

  333. Odyssey says:
    @karel

    Karel Čapek – here you can see all: med (honey), medved-bear (here you can see that ‘ved’ is not ‘veda’ than, as Sparky said, ‘ведь’ – ‘honey led’, medical encyclopedia, etc. And Masha is there as well, all in 6 minutes. You (or someone else) can give us examples of Gypsy using bears to dance for money (3 min).

    • Replies: @karel
  334. @Odyssey

    Hmm. Ghost?

    “Gost” in Serbian, Bulgarian, Russian, “host” in Czech and Slovak, “gosc” in Polish = Guest. (“Gast” in German). On the other hand “host” in English means the exact opposite of what it means in Czech and Slovak.

    “Duh” in Serbian or “duch” in Czech, Polish, Slovak= “Ghost”, but “prizrak” in Russian and Bulgarian

    I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove.

    Any similarities between certain words in English and Slavic languages may be because Saxony in East Germany bordered Slavic lands there and there could have also been some intermixing of people before some moved to England.

    One finds words that sound the same in different languages which could be that they have the same origin, but same sounding words in different languages could also have different meanings as “ghost” in English and Slavic.

    The further back we go in time the more difficult it gets to prove anything when it comes to languages so I guess one theory is as good as the next. There is no reason to assume that any one specific modern language is the original Indo-European language from which Sanskrit, Pali, and European languages evolved.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
    , @karel
  335. Indo-Pak Gypsies.

    The Thar people, Lahore and other areas. This is what Gypsies look like in India and Pakistan. You can judge the degree of resemblance to European Gypsies.

  336. Why couldn’t it be that the Gypsies brought some words to Europe and passed them onto Europeans? Look at this Romany glossary of just some words in their language.

    http://www2.arnes.si/~eusmith/Romany/glossary.html

    “Chao” for tea. The question arises did they have this word for tea even before the Dutch brought the tea to Europe which was after the Gypsies arrived.

    You will notice many European/Slavic words with same meaning: dosta, doshman, grob, machka, pushka, sarma, zurla, etc. but some with different meaning “sir” = garlic. The glossary states which words in Romani are from Slavic languages but then could it be that some were transferred to Slavic languages from Romani, or that they originate in both languages from an earlier IndoEuropean source language? Or some were picked up along they way from others, such as Persians, and passed onto Europeans as the notes in the glossary seem to indicate. It is not easy to determine who influenced whom, especially if there are not authenticated original written records.

    You are correct that much of history has been falsified but then who knows which is the right version? In fact many of those who wrote the old histories in ancient times may have been no less falsifiers than modern or recent historians.

    Gypsy Romani language imparted some common words to the English language (bar, chav, cosh, cushty, dick, div, gavver, gibberish, lollipop, mullered, nark, pal, scran, skip, togs, wonga) so why not to others?

    https://www.hampshirelive.news/news/hampshire-news/common-english-words-romany-gypsy-4310270

    Interestingly “satan” in Romani means to eat.

  337. bwuce wee says:
    @Mefobills

    i already refuted your BS with another post, which somehow got tacked on to another commenter in this same thread, but i will respond to you again, since you are still whining about your defeat:

    1. mussolini called them corporations, so you are once again attempting to use semantics to prove what has already been disproven- just like when you called dollars ‘federal reserve notes’ and when i pointed out that you yourself DO NOT go to the bank and say- ‘i’d like to withdrw 100 federal reserve notes’. so corporation- if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a corporation. so mussolini relied exclusively on coporations to run his country. fascism relies on coporations to get stuff done, and these corporations in turn have REAL power in the fascist goverment.
    2. my other response included facts about hitler being financed by over 200 american CORPORATIONS, including FORD MOTORS, GENERAL MOTORS, STANDARD OIL AND MANY OTHER BIG NAME CORPORATIONS. hitler’s party would never have lasted 5 months without the finacial backing of corporations in germany, and america. so the takeway here is: the biggest corporations in the industrial world financed hitler’s regime and kept it in power. and those corpoartions GOT THEIR MONEY’S WORTH from the fascists! it was a symbiotic relationship. when someone finances you, they CALL THE SHOTS. so don’t give me any more of your fascist apologist whining. you are defeated. see my other post for dictionary definitions of fascism.
    3. a major facet of fascism is ELITES being set up in positions of power and rule. you see it in mussolini’s power structure from 1926 where this policy is stated in no uncertain terms, and you see it in nazi germany- the rich industrialist families and the noble families were the power structure of fascism. exactly like 21st century corporatism that you pretend is somehow different from fascism. it is not different. you are soft selling FASCISM by semantics- calling it corporatism. i’m not buying what you are selling. and further, you are a specialist. a one-trick pony. here is what isaac asimov says about you: SPECIALAZATION IS FOR INSECTS.
    4. and even further, joe biden just initiated a ministry of disinformation- which anyone can plainly see if the very definition of dictatorial fascism.

    • Replies: @Mefobills
  338. @Odyssey

    It may interest you that one time I was walking down a street in Luxor/ Thebes in Egypt and it had the street sign سرب in Arabic, which is “Srb”. I could never find out why this street was so named but in Arabic this word means “flock” as of seagulls, or “squadron” of airplanes, or even “herd”.

  339. @Larry Romanoff

    It is perfectly logical that Gypsies in India should look different from Gypsies in France, Germany, or the US. The difference is in the thousands of years which separate them, not the distance.

    • Replies: @karel
  340. Echo says:

    My favorite actress portraying Gypsies is Maria Ouspenskaya. If you’d like to study Gypsies, go to their villages in Europe and stay overnight.

  341. @Odyssey

    I see your problem. Proto-Indo-European was a language spoken seven thousand years ago. Modern Indo-European languages do not come directly from Proto-Indo-European but through continuous intermediate developments over the last seven thousand years. Over that period of time there has been a lot of wandering on the part of the original peoples who lived in what is now the Black Sea before it was flooded by the breach from the Mediterranean creating the myth-legend of Atlantis. History only begins with writing.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  342. JimDandy says:
    @Anonimko

    I enjoyed a movie called Gadjo dilo about a French guy in Romania trying to find a lost gypsy recording of some song.

  343. Bela says:

    One of the more interesting and in depth articles I have read on this site or many others.
    Please continue to do interesting topics like this in the future.
    Grew up in an area where the threat of Gypsies kidnapping children was the prevalent rumor. A few settled in my town and you always knew where they lived as they had heavy rugs drawn in front of the windows instead of curtains. The only other real contact was an elderly woman with the kerchiefed head scarf and the looped ear rings. looking a little like Maria Ouspenkaya. She would always hand out candy to the kids and the kids mothers would promptly throw it away.
    Of course there was the Travelers in Ireland and we were told to always keep away from them too.

  344. Guglielmi says:

    I’m Italian/American and lived in Italy. They live a sad existence. They are beaten in the streets and if they come home with nothing beaten again. Europe that we whites created is gone.

  345. Anonymous[417] • Disclaimer says:

    Gypsies start being mentioned in the chronicles of various European states around 1400. The DNA evidence clearly shows a link to Northern India so I would submit that they came west as the enslaved laborers of Timur and his armies who conquered Northern India before sweeping west to the Aegean and severely battering the Ottomans at the battle of Ankara in 1402. The Gypsies were simply left behind as Timur returned to Samarkand and then they followed the Turks into the Balkans.
    The harvesting and sewing seasons of the many European countries varied considerably particularly on a North/South axis so there was a demand for mobile workforce to help for these labor intensive months then they could be moved along.
    Probably most of the actual work was done by the women and children but the meagre wages went to the men. This business model would encourage the men to have large litters of children who could be sent into the fields. It may also explain the persistent allegations of child stealing, a child of 5 or 6 was past the danger period for child mortality and once kidnapped they could be put to work with any monies going to the head of the clan.

    • Replies: @Peter Rabbit
  346. @Larry Romanoff

    “DNA studies do not conclusively” uh wait, so you’re saying all the criminals in the U.S exonerated for horrific murder on DNA results may not be “conclusively” innocent? Billions of encoded peptides in DNA aren’t coincidental. They exist because they have been let’s say…injected.
    Or could it be you just refuse to have your chosen blood part of the Romani admixture?

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  347. @anonissowhatever

    ” so you’re saying all the criminals in the U.S exonerated for horrific murder on DNA results may not be “conclusively” innocent?”

    It is obvious to sensible readers that I made no such suggestions. My statement was merely to reflect that the DNA studies used words like “suggest” rather than hard definitive statements.

    Since your user name has no commenting history, I assume you and a few others similar on this thread are part of Hasbara’s misinformation campaign and are therefore soldiers in the Jewish 50-cent army.

  348. @Larry Romanoff

    Have a look at Iranian Gypsies; very different from the ones you showed from India/Pakistan.

    https://www.atlasofhumanity.com/romani

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  349. @Commentator Mike

    “Have a look at Iranian Gypsies; very different from the ones you showed from India/Pakistan.”

    Indeed they are. Thank you for the post. This is so interesting.

  350. Pinballs says:

    This article was a waste of time. The author spent paragraph after paragraph repeating that gypsies are liars and thieves,….. as if we didn’t know that already The real story, ignored by the author, is HOW have they survived the repeated pogroms? How do they ‘insinuate themselves into authoritative structures”????? Did the Roma prototype the ‘compromate’ technique that now seem to be used to control the worlds leaders? This is the story, not that they are thieves. It’s not that author really knows much, for instance, in the MOVIE ‘slumdog millionaire’ they showed orphan beggars being damaged to increase their take (NOT a documentary).

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  351. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Excellent research, CM. Let me just put the finishing touches. It is well documented that ancient Lepenski Vir/Vincha people revered their dead what remained among their descendants until today. More than 10000 years ago, they buried their dead under the fireplace or under the doorstep, to preserve their spirits in their homes. They assumed that the spirit of their ancestor resides in some intentional traveller and because they offered the best hospitality, food and drink, to coincidental visitors. This hospitality remains until today everywhere and especially in rural areas.

    It is present today when for e.g., one family celebrates ‘slava’, i.e. the feast dedicated to a family saint patron which has been inheriting for centuries from father to the son. It is a relic of pre-Christian pagan mythology and it is present only among Serbs. Guests are not officially invited but anyone is free to come (usually extended family, neighbours and friends). It is incorporated in the Christianity but no other Christians have ‘slava’. St Nicholas is the most frequent Serbian ‘slava’. My ‘slava’ for e.g., is St. George which is always on May 6th.

    It is interesting that colloquially St George (Djurdjevdan) is also called a ‘Gypsy slava’ because it coincides with spring Slavic pagan festivities, which were transferred to India by Aryans and returned back and practiced by Gypsies in Europe. Below are two links to a Gypsy song ‘Djurdjevdan’ (St. George’s Day). One is an English version and the second is from the earlier mentioned movie ‘Time of the Gypsies’ from Emir Kusturica (Golden Palm, Kan 1988), which, I think, will be interesting to Indian viewers.

    Well, the unknown visitor was their ‘gost’ (guest) and he represented the ‘duh’ (spirit) of their ancestor. Even now, after every funeral, during the lunch one place at the table is left empty with a plate and cutlery for the soul of deceased. This was much later accepted by English as ‘ghost’. For visitors, English use a similar word – ‘guest’. This is an example how one word is mechanically adopted from other language but without underlining meaning. Because, in the English language we have two words – ‘ghost’ and ‘guest’ while in Serbian is only one – ‘gost’. If there is some interest, we can also explain how words ‘land’ and ‘cat’ were adopted from Serbian and especially is interesting the ‘vampire’, which Larry mentioned earlier.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  352. Anonymous[140] • Disclaimer says:

    Right after the Berlin Wall came down, I was traveling from Prague to Frankfurt. Unknown to me was that thousands and thousands of former East Germans and East Europeans were returning home for weekends and then returning to work in the West on Sunday afternoon/evening. Thus the trains were mobbed. I get a seat but unknowingly it was a special seat for Kinders. Apparently, if an adult with a child comes along, they can take your seat if you don’t have a child, too. The other 3 seats in the grouping were German soldiers. A strange looking woman with a young child came along and tried to get me to move. She held the child up to my face and yelled and screamed. The German soldiers told me to ignore her that this was a scam. It went on so long, that I finally gave my seat up – of course I kept close attention to my possessions. After the woman with the child took my seat and I was now a standee, the child disappeared and was used by numerous other Gypsy women to extract seats from intimidated seat holders. Unbelievable. Thank God there aren’t many in the U.S. However, they will surface during natural disasters with numerous scams like repairing your roof – never repaired – just the money gone.

  353. bwuce wee says:
    @Alden

    oooops! you were almost correct. i appreciate the tip BUT new york city did not exist under the dutch. however, NEW AMSTERDAM did exist. so nice try, but you are wrong. the NYPD, new york’s first police force was created in the 19th century, as i stated.

  354. Odyssey says:
    @Odyssey

    PS: just a couple dots…Historically, the countries of England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Catalonia and Aragon in Spain, and Moscow in Russia have claimed George as their patron saint, as have several other regions, cities, universities, professions and organizations. St George was killed by the Serbian-Roman Emperor Diocletian for preaching Christianity. Shortly after his death, the other Serb, the Emperor Constantine, legalized Christianity.

    It is also interesting that all actors in the previous movie “The time of Gypsies’ were amateurs. The Gypsy boy with glasses (he is not alive anymore) was a real thief who operated in front of the Milan’s Cathedral in Italy. He was expelled without rights to enter Italy again. The movie had some sequences of Gypsy ‘operations’ in front of this Cathedral but the boy was not allowed to enter Italy. The director Kusturica had to ask for a special permission and guarantee for him to enter Italy only for the movie filming.

  355. A friend in India sent me this commentary on the Thar People:

    “Twice, I, along with my wife, have taken provisions for distribution in their camp. Both times, I have come back scratched by the long dirty nails of their girls. One time, as I was distributing some packets, some men went to my car, opened its doors and stole away the rest of the stuff. Here too they are known for stealing. On Valentine day, they sell heart shaped cards, flowers and balloons, on religious days, they sell religious items. But they are known to be thieves. Not in the sense of planned thieving but more like opportune thieving.

    But, some of their girls are wildly ravishing.”

  356. @Pinballs

    “This article was a waste of time. The author spent paragraph after paragraph repeating that gypsies are liars and thieves . . . It’s not that author really knows much.”

    Since your user name has no commenting history, I assume you, like @anonissowhatever and a few others similar on this thread, are part of Hasbara’s misinformation campaign and are therefore soldiers in the Jewish 50-cent army.

  357. Odyssey says:
    @Peter Rabbit

    It is difficult to extract any value from your statement. If PIE was spoken (where?) 7K years ago (cca 5000BC) which language was spoken between 12K (the end of the Ice Age) and 5K BC. At about 7K BC we had the first industrial revolution (metal production) in Vincha. Which language was spoken there at that time? At about that time we have even the oldest in the world – Vincha script. The oldest in the world, Vincha calendar started immediately after this big flood which transferred a freshwater lake to Black Sea. According this Serbian calendar, now is the year 7530 and it was officially used until the end of the 19. cAC when stopped under pressure from Austria. All medieval royal and church documents were dated using this calendar.

    So, Aryans came to India with their language and Rg Veda. This language was assumed ‘indo-european’ and we already established its high similarity with Serbian. Is there any other language in Europe in 2000BC apart from the Aryan language? Scholars initially used the term ‘indo-european’ for classification purposes but, later on, they started using it for very specific Yamnaya nomads’ language which was allegedly brought to Europe from Russian steppes in 2800-2500BC and allegedly, somehow replaced all existing European languages. But, these nomads (ancestors of west Europeans) were NOT Aryans.

    Thus, we have one IE language brought by Aryans from Europe (still similar to modern Serbian and Slavic languages) and the second IE language, brought by Yamnaya to Europe. They must be different. Very strange. In addition, we don’t know anything about Yamnaya before 3100BC. So, where was developed and spoken protoIE between 5k BC and 3100BC? If the PIE was spoken at about 5K BC, where this language originated and was spoken for several 000 of years before that. Only human settlements at that time existed in Lepenski/Vir Vincha. So, my assertion remains – the term ‘indo-european’ is meaningless and without substance and the official version of linguistic development cannot sustain the basic logic.

  358. Odyssey says:

    Esma was a ‘Gypsy Queen’ (NYT, BBC, Guardian, Apple), who performed Gypsy songs for almost 60 years. She raised 47 foster Gypsy children, who studied music at a school she founded with her husband. Performed many times in India in front of Indira Gandy who declared herself – a Gypsy. Indira was a friend of Yugoslavia, visited many times where she had regularly a young (Aryan) lieutenant at her disposal. Here is one of her most famous songs ‘Beautiful girl’ which featured in a Sasha Baron Cohen’s movie. Indian viewers can check if they understand her lyrics.

  359. @Anthropologiek

    Most of the Carthaginians just remained where they lived, as attested by bilingual inscriptions in later centuries, but a significant number obviously moved to southern Italy. Among them a wealthy family named Caesar – from the Punic word for “elephant” (probably ultimately from Sanskrit “gajar”); everybody’s favourite Roman still issued coins with an elephant on them – that went on to intermarry with the Roman gens Iulia.

  360. Gym says:

    Austrian swords were garbage until we showed you layering and heating techniques. We showed you how to take out slag. We taught you about impact, we taught you how to sharpen. We showed the Arabs too advancements in metallurgy are on a chart along with our migration.

  361. @repugnant

    Not true about Maoris. They were/are a tribal settled people and definitely own land, vast swathes of it and are trying to get even more back from our cuck governments. Source: am a part-Maori Kiwi.

  362. @simple mind

    The question for White people is who is their enemy. It is clear that the Jews are the self-declared enemies of Whites and the most successful civilization in history. Jews have always been a highly-destructive parasitic drag on White civilization. Jews are the enemy. They have weaponized nonWhites against Whites. Jews might be highly successful, but they use this sucess to impose a soviet-syle tyranny against Whites. Just because Jews are powerfull doesn’t mean that they are not profoundly evil Left-wing POS who need to be destroyed.

  363. Mefobills says:
    @bwuce wee

    i already refuted your BS with another post, which somehow got tacked on to another commenter in this same thread, but i will respond to you again, since you are still whining about your defeat:

    The above statement proves that you are an asshole, and only worried about winning, and not learning.

    You didn’t refute anything. You never wanted to learn, because you are so self righteous in your ignorance.

    The fascist system was government OVER corporations. This is the OPPOSITE of corporatocracy.

    Corporations were allowed to exist but they DID NOT call the shots.

    Do you think the rich industrialists were all warm and fuzzy inside when Mussolini nationalized the banks in 1926?

    Corporatism is a word Mussolini used, and the word relates to corporeal, or of the body. Fascisim was an attempt to get one body to work together.

    Fasces are a bunch of sticks bound together because they are stronger together than individually. Corporatism is of the body, all the parts working together, and made stronger. Fascism is not rule by hidden oligarchs working to self aggrandize.

    Both NSDAP Germany and Fascist Italy were attacked by finance capitalist corporatocracies – i.e. the West. Neither NSDAP Germany nor Fascist Italy were the aggressors.

    They were a threat to the hidden finance Oligarchs of the west.

  364. karel says:
    @Commentator Mike

    From your statement that

    “Duh” in Serbian or “duch” in Czech, Polish, Slovak= “Ghost”, but “prizrak” in Russian and Bulgarian

    I can conclude that your knowledge of foreign laguages is somewhat limited.

    In Czech, you will find quite a few more words for a ghost than just duch, e.g. přelud, strašidlo, bubák, mulisák, zjevení and přízrak. So it is not true that prizrak appears only in Russian.

    The conflation of a ghost with a guest is nonsensical. There is no h in Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian, but it is present in Czech and Slovak. In Czech host is a guest and hostitel means a host. Hence, the confusion arose from the strange habit of the English and Germans twisting the H into G, as if they wanted to follow the Russian pronunciation.

    In latin a guest means, hospite. So, no fkn. G. The Latin expressions for a host are hospes or sometimes exercitus. My Latin is elementary, if someone is more competent, please contribute.

  365. karel says:
    @Peter Rabbit

    No. Some do others do not. Have you been to India?

    • Replies: @Peter Rabbit
  366. karel says:
    @Odyssey

    Stop pretending that Russian is like Czech. Věd in Czech is not identical to veď, even though it may seem the same to you. Vědět means to know, whereas veď is an imperative of the verb vesti, i.e to lead. Perhaps you may have already learned that shit is somewhat different from a sheet.

    I presume that Czech bears know where the honey is but will not reveal their secret whereas a good Russian bear will lead you directly to the place where the honey is hidden.

  367. @Anonymous

    Gypsies were not accepted into the Soviet armed forces. For Timur, there were better candidates for enslavement than Gypsies.

  368. @karel

    “Some do some do not.” Who said all look one way or another? Have to you been to school? I have been to India and it is one country, besides Saudi Arabia, that I do not look forward to returning to.

    • Replies: @karel
  369. Odyssey says:
    @karel

    Čapek, what’s wrong with you? Do you hate Russians so much that you prefer to be related to Gypsies? Maybe Larry was right, so, if Gypsies like Plzen beer, they are definitely crypto Czechs. Has Catholicism destroyed yours and Polish brains as it did in Croats’ case? Though, I find humorous that Czech bears know where honey is, but they keep this secret for themselves, while Putin’s bears are led by honey (i.e., ‘honey focused’).

    CM did a great job considering the circumstances. You disagree that ‘ghost’ and ‘guest’ came from Serbian ‘gost’? ‘Duh’ is also one of Serbian words which was adopted in many non-Slavic languages. You can tell us about the origins of the Czech language (and ‘veda’), that would contribute to this discussion. Maybe it really came, as CM speculates for some words, from Punjab? Btw, I was trying to remember if there is any Gypsy word in Serbian and I found one which is used in Serbian slang – минџа, i.e., mindža (pron. dž = as ‘G’ in George) and it means ‘pussy’.

    • Replies: @karel
  370. @Malla

    King Vlad Tepis would be celebrated as a great hero. All of Christian Europe should have been celebrating him, all the way to Iceland. But Christian Whitey erroneously believes that niceness & self-criticism will change your enemy’s heart.

    Well Vlad believed that you can change their heart.

    A spike through their bowels and into the heart will do that.

  371. @karel

    I noticed a few other words of interest. “Chao” for tea; in Mandarin, tea is ‘cha’.

    And I noticed сметана. The dictionary I have, says this is ‘cream’ in Czech, but ‘sour cream’ in Russian and Ukrainian. But I’m not sure that’s correct. I was fluent in both those languages and we used сметана for cream. I used to speak some Romanian, and they use smântână for cream, which must have the same root; but they also use cremă which must be from English.

    “In latin a guest means, hospite. The Latin expressions for a host are hospes or sometimes exercitus.”

    I thought ‘guest’ in Latin was hospes and ‘host’ was exercitus. “Hospite” is the Ablative for ‘hospes’, no? Can’t recall for sure.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @karel
  372. Jason și Lâna de Aur – Jason and the Golden Fleece

    This is an irrelevant aside, but maybe interesting. A version of Jason and the Golden Fleece did exist in Romania.

    Many years ago all gold panning was reserved for the King, citizens being forbidden to collect it. Too bad, because some of the small rivers contained quite a lot of alluvial gold. As a work-around, many Romanians built small mills on the banks of these little rivers, with the requisite paddle-wheel, but constructed so the operator had to stand in the river (waist-deep) to run the mill. It was understandable that they would wear heavy sheepskin leggings to protect them from the cold water.

    But the lanolin in the wool proved to be a magnet for the little gold flakes sifting down the river and, at the end of each day, the mill operators would return home and comb all the gold out of their leggings. Apparently sufficient to be profitable and worth doing. The little mills still exist in places.

  373. Odyssey says:

    May I jump in? In Serbia this sour cream is known as pavlaka or mileram. The second name is similar to the German’s Millirahm (milk cream). If you need non sour cream (usually used for pastries or coffee) you must emphasize – ‘sweet pavlaka’.

    There is also ‘kaymak’ or ‘skorup’ – a similar dairy product with a creamy structure, pleasant sour taste and characteristic aroma. It is obtained by collecting fat that accumulates on the surface of cooked and chilled milk which ferments for several hours or days (young or old cream). ‘Skorup is a word of Slavic origin and it means the upper side, the crust, and refers to the fat that is on the surface of the milk. Some authors state that the crust has been produced since ancient times in Slavic tribes, so it could be considered an autochthonous product of the Slavic peoples, as indicated by the area of production and the similarity of the names associated with the appearance of bark.

    This specialty, with more or less differences, is traditionally made in the Balkans, the Middle East, Central Asia, Iran, Afghanistan, India, Mongolia, but also in England (Devonshire cream), the countries of the former Soviet Union and others.

    ‘Smetana’ is in Serbia used when listening or talking about Vltava.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  374. @karel

    In English too you can find many more words for ghost: spirit, phantasm, phantom, apparition, spectre. So? I was specifically asked about “ghost” so I tried my best. I am no etymologist, as I suppose none of us are so we’re guessing here.

    • Agree: Odyssey
  375. @Larry Romanoff

    In Hindi tea is “Chay” so it’s similar to Chinese and as apparently tea originated in China so did the word. In Slavic languages it is almost exclusively pronounced as the Hindi word so the origin must be from India.

    Apparently the English used “cha” early on from the Portuguese but switched to “tea” later on from Malay which originated from another Chinese dialect, Min.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_tea

    Although tea and herbal infusions were first recorded in China I should think that it could have been invented independently in many other regions. Apparently herbal infusions were popular in Europe in medieval times. It would be interesting if the Gypsies had anything to do with the spread of herbalism from India to Europe, even before tea was brought over by the Western explorers. Furthermore little is made of the possible transfer of Asian products and technologies by the Huns and Mongols on their conquests, and this was probably significant in Russia and Eastern Europe. Maybe much of what was claimed by Western explorers was already brought over earlier via Russia and Eastern Europe.

  376. karel says:
    @Peter Rabbit

    Ok, Rabbit. I do not care who said what. It is may own experience.

  377. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    I noticed a few other words of interest. “Chao” for tea; in Mandarin, tea is ‘cha’. I

    In Czech tea is čaj. When pronounced the sound is similar to Chinese and most Chinese will understand what you mean. In any case, I doubt the possibility that Gypsies adopted their version directly from Chinese.

    Smetana in Czech means cream. It is a common name and it would sound rather funny if it meant sour cream.

  378. karel says:
    @Odyssey

    Do you hate Russians so much that you prefer to be related to Gypsies? Maybe Larry was right, so, if Gypsies like Plzen beer, they are definitely crypto Czechs.

    I dont want to be related to anyone. You should start drinking Prazdroj to become more gypsi-like or a crypto Czech. It may improve your mind.

  379. @Anne Lid

    The English gipsies/travellers I saw were different looking, and I think they are more like an offshoot of some local people, separated from the rest by lifestyle and marrying among themselves.

    Romanies in the UK were there for a long time, with little contact with their European relatives, so were “relatively” law-abiding, especially compared with their Eastern European brethren. Then the UK joined the EU and the EU opened to Eastern Europe.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/police-seize-mattresses-as-70-romanian-travellers-are-moved-on-from-park-lane-8659128.html

    Police and council officers today seized bedding from Romanian travellers camped in Park Lane in the latest effort to prevent people sleeping rough in the West End. Officials confiscated mattresses, cardboard and pieces of old carpet that were being used in the makeshift camp in the central reservation. Onlookers counted more than 70 travellers who were moved on today.

    They are all believed to be Romanians linked to begging gangs. Such gangs have been linked to pickpocketing, shoplifting and scams such as pretending to have found a “gold” ring which is then sold for £20.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/travellers-return-park-lane-traders-say-street-is-a-slum-9684861.html

    Traders in Park Lane have accused foreign travellers of turning their shopping parade into a “slum” after they returned to sleep rough on their doorsteps. Just months after police, council and immigration officials cleared the area, the group has come back to Mayfair to set up camp every night with their makeshift beds and their suitcases in tow.

    The community, believed to be Romanian and Bosnian, has swelled to around 40 people, including elderly men and women, and has now spilled over into a neighbouring subway. Today traders along Park Lane complained the group uses a covered area as a toilet and leave mountains of rubbish outside their shopfronts.

    Round our way they do the “Big Issue” sales – a lady in a headscarf gets dropped off by car and collected in the afternoon by a minder – and the men do worse stuff like snatching cash as women (always women and preferably elderly) are withdrawing it from ATMs.

    The Victorian diarist George Borrow was fascinated by the Romani, travelled with them and wrote a lot about them, all available here.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/4383

    Here’s his description, from I Zingali.

    Having in various and distant countries lived in habits of intimacy with these people, I have come to the following conclusions respecting them: that wherever they are found, their manners and customs are virtually the same, though somewhat modified by circumstances, and that the language they speak amongst themselves, and of which they are particularly anxious to keep others in ignorance, is in all countries one and the same, but has been subjected more or less to modification; and lastly, that their countenances exhibit a decided family resemblance, but are darker or fairer according to the temperature of the climate, but invariably darker, at least in Europe, than those of the natives of the countries in which they dwell, for example, England and Russia, Germany and Spain.

    The names by which they are known differ with the country, though, with one or two exceptions, not materially for example, they are styled in Russia, Zigáni; in Turkey and Persia, Zingarri; and in Germany, Zigeuner; all which words apparently spring from the same etymon, which there is no improbability in supposing to be ‘Zincali,’ a term by which these people, especially those of Spain, sometimes designate themselves, and the meaning of which is believed to be, The black men of Zend or Ind. In England and Spain they are commonly known as Gypsies and Gitános, from a general belief that they were originally Egyptians, to which the two words are tantamount; and in France as Bohemians, from the circumstance that Bohemia was one of the first countries in civilised Europe where they made their appearance.

    But they generally style themselves and the language which they speak, Rommany. This word, of which I shall ultimately have more to say, is of Sanscrit origin, and signifies, The Husbands, or that which pertaineth unto them. From whatever motive this appellation may have originated, it is perhaps more applicable than any other to a sect or caste like them, who have no love and no affection beyond their own race; who are capable of making great sacrifices for each other, and who gladly prey upon all the rest of the human species, whom they detest, and by whom they are hated and despised.

    And this was a man who loved them, but he was pretty clear-eyed about it.

    “Irish travellers” are an even worse bunch, not in any way related to the Romani, but more violent. Here’s a Victorian Welshman speaking to Borrow.

    We continued our way, and presently saw marks of a fire in some grass by the side of the road. “Have the Gipsiaid been there?” said I to my guide.

    “Hardly, sir; I should rather think that the Gwyddeliad (Irish) have been camping there lately.”

    “The Gwyddeliad?”

    “Yes, sir, the vagabond Gwyddeliad, who at present infest these parts much, and do much more harm than the Gipsiaid ever did.”

    “What do you mean by the Gipsiaid?”

    “Dark, handsome people, sir, who occasionally used to come about in vans and carts, the men buying and selling horses, and sometimes tinkering, whilst the women told fortunes.”

    “And they have ceased to come about?”

    “Nearly so, sir; I believe they have been frightened away by the Gwyddelod.”

    “What kind of people are these Gwyddelod?”

    “Savage, brutish people, sir; in general without shoes and stockings, with coarse features and heads of hair like mops.”

    “How do they live?”

    “The men tinker a little, sir, but more frequently plunder. The women tell fortunes, and steal whenever they can.”

    “They live something like the Gipsiaid.”

    “Something, sir; but the hen (old) Gipsiaid were gentlefolks in comparison.”

    “You think the Gipsiaid have been frightened away by the Gwyddelians?”

    “I do, sir; the Gwyddelod made their appearance in these parts about twenty years ago, and since then the Gipsiaid have been rarely seen.”

    “Are these Gwyddelod poor?”

    “By no means, sir; they make large sums by plundering and other means, with which, ’tis said, they retire at last to their own country or America, where they buy land and settle down.”

    • Thanks: Larry Romanoff
  380. Wielgus says:
    @Odyssey

    Kaymak is Turkish for “cream”. The Ottoman period had some influence on Balkan cuisine.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  381. @Wielgus

    “Kaymak is Turkish for “cream”. The Ottoman period had some influence on Balkan cuisine.”

    I was surprised at this. The Balkans were influenced also by the Turkish language. Romanian has words adopted from Turkish, and I suspect the other languages have been similarly affected. It would be interesting to trace the common elements from Turkish, from Latin, and perhaps from Sanskrit or Hindi, in the Balkans.

  382. Liquid Eyes

    This is one more aside, irrelevant to the topic of Gypsies, and that is the eyes of Romanian girls.

    This does not apply to all females in Romania, but still to a large number. There are no words, no adjectives, to describe the eyes of this group of Romanian girls, but they are beautiful beyond compare. These girls were treasured for espionage during WWII because it was said “Those Romanian girls, with their liquid eyes, could seduce anyone.”

    This is not a fantasy, and the effect does not show in photos; it is something that must be seen and, so far as I know, is a phenomenon that exists no place else. Their beauty is stunning in a way that defies description. It is almost worth the price of a plane ticket to Romania just to see these eyes.

  383. Odyssey says:

    Considering that Serbia is geographically positioned on crossroads, it was exposed to various influences. Its cuisine is very rich and adopted many names and dishes – Hungarian, Greek, Turkish, German, Italian. Regarding the languages, Serbian language is older in comparison to all mentioned. For e.g. the Latin language originated and developed within the Serbian language and it adopted many Serbian words. We already mentioned that Sanskrit is the SAsian local version of the Aryans’ language. CM speculated that Gypsies may brought some Sanskrit words to Europe, but they could not transfer one-third of Sanskrit to Serbian. The original Romanian language was also a Dacian version of Serbian. Jesuits created artificial Romanian nation and enforced the artificial language 160 years ago. All toponyms were Serbian, and they were replaced in the process of ‘Romanisation’.

    Still, there are 9000 Serbian words in Romanian, which sometimes is called – Esperanto on Serbian basis. Romanians since their Christianisation until 1924 officially belonged to the Serbian Orthodox Church. Vlad Tepes was a Vlach-Serb (maybe because Malla has sympathies for him, considering that she and her family are Aryans descendants; the blood is not water). Vatican (Jesuits) has been trying for centuries to separate Serbs from Russians and because they created Romania to be an enemy of Russia. Almost 160K Romanians died under Stalingrad. It would be interested to find out why Gypsies are so widespread in Romania and why they feel there at home.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  384. @Odyssey

    There is a strong Latin influence in the Romanian language and the official position is that it descended from Latin. Since Romanians are Orthodox it would be strange if they adopted Latin much later on, as you claim, or that Jesuits imparted such a strong influence. Some Slav nations are Catholic, from Poles to Croats, yet they did not adopt Latin, so why should Romanians have done that at such a later date? One would have thought that Catholic Slavs would have adopted Latin, at least from the original mass, but they didn’t.

    Certainly it is odd that Hungarians and Romanians have different languages from the rest of the region, and different from each other, while I suppose they are predominantly Slavic peoples in their origin.

    About Gypsies I mentioned that they may have contributed some words to languages of regions they passed through. It is obvious that they couldn’t have had any educational role or major influences on the languages or cultures of those regions. The Churches played that most significant role but obviously not so much among Slav Catholics while the Romanians are for some reason the strangest in that respect. Latin was the official language during the Roman empire yet its influence is now greatest in the far Eastern Romanian reaches of that empire and least among the Slovenes and Croats so much closer to the Roman centre. The theory that Slavs came to the Balkans much later than you suggest could explain this, while perhaps more of the original Balkan people remained in Romania.

    BTW Vincha script, also called Danube script, was widespread not just in Serbia but beyond, and especially in Romania. I think it is treated seriously in Romanian and USA academic circles, probably more so than in Serbia.

    https://www.academia.edu/8699334/Contents_of_the_book_Neo-Eneolithic_Literacy_in_Southeastern_Europe

    Serbian historians tend to be disparaging and dismissive about the Vincha script.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:JNFEHY8GS8MJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&t=1651642849104&u=%23p%3DNO1wFbOFFSIJ

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:JNFEHY8GS8MJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&t=1651643001518&u=%23p%3DJNFEHY8GS8MJ

    • Replies: @Malla
  385. @Odyssey

    [ … from the Book of Srb; portato ]

    [1] Before anything was, the Serb was.
    [2] All the creation myths of Ymir, Purusha, Tiamat etc. are just the lesser peoples´
    garbled memories of the Primal Serb.
    [3] The Serb – and not those heeb impostors – is also the true People of the Book.
    [4] Prometheus, Thot and Huang Feng were obviously culture-purveying Serbs
    later worshipped as deities.
    [5] Jimmu Tenno (a fugitive flunky from the court of the great Serb Qin Shi-huangdi)
    vanquished a preexisting Serbian high civilization and their progeny, by still eating
    dogs and bears and speaking Serbian, give testament to the erstwhile extent.

    Inhaled a bit too deeply from Karadjordje´s cannon haven´t we.

    But seriously …
    – the Vinca culture did extend a lot further east than previously believed;
    if Ramzan Kadyrow lays claim to it I´m willing to listen (well, not really).
    – the Ainu likely learned Serbian from Croatian (= really Serbian) auxiliaries in the
    Austronesian army.
    – the mighty Serb kingdom – from Stepan Dusan to the battle on the Kosovo Polje –
    lasted 20 years; leaving the Austrians – who never had a king – in the dust and
    yellow with envy.
    – the language is the Kraljevic Marko´s rendering of Church Slavonic i.e. no
    less artificial than German or Latin.
    – the stock is more effortlessly explained by in situ reciprocal rape
    (as described by Gregor v. Rezzori) among Shqiptars, Csigans, Turks and Sfaradim.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  386. @nokangaroos

    You forgot the greatest Serbian emperor, even before Alexander the Great, Nino Belov – Ninus, or was it Nimrod? They even claim Japanese Ainu are Serbian. Well, may as well claim everything, lol.

  387. @Odyssey

    Then there are the Dom people in the Middle East with their Domari language. Apparently they are not Gypsies, although there are similarities and they too originated from India.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_people

    Strangely “Dom” means “home” in Slavic languages and “Domari” means “janitors” in Serbian. Can we read anything into this?

    Etymology definitely proves links and influences between languages but sometimes same or similar words in different languages can be coincidental. There are only so many sounds and syllables that can be produced and strung together, and coincidences could be more likely with shorter words like “Dom”.

    Consider the dominance of English, especially in technical terms – so should some alien in the future visit Earth he may conclude that English is the source language because of same and similar words in so many other languages. Sometimes we may be reading too much into all this.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  388. Sparkon says:

    The underlying problem is that much of the early language creation, along with unknown amounts of mixing and synthesis, all took place in the prehistoric era.

    Anything men said back then, for long eons, was written only on the wind.

    Men didn’t begin to write in more or less permanent form until about 5,000 years ago, but by then, the spoken languages were already highly developed. We can only guess how long men had been yakking so eloquently. Language itself seemingly developed from a set or system of grunts, groans, shouts and what have you, and was developed and preserved, with all the grammar and inflections, in a process that must have taken a very long time before men arrived at the stage of who whom.

    How would you maintain a large vocabulary for a language without writing? Maybe there was a small group of enduring core words, say 50 to 100, while with everything else, they just made it up with neologisms as they went along. Some people love to do that, you know.

    Some words caught on and became more universal for unknown reasons, maybe simply because they sounded good or made people laugh or grin. Or perhaps it followed the Rule of the Bludgeon: Say it my way or I smash your head. Maybe the Witch Doctors were the first language police, who knows?

    Finally, two short takes to close it out: Did man run before he walked, and more to the point, did he sing before he talked?

  389. Mermade says: • Website
    @Larry Romanoff

    I don’t think gypsys are from Indian origins. Indian people look very different in aparance and they are pretty much the same dark eyes dark hair and darkish skin and even if born and raise in Western countries, they are not diverse in aparence it is very easy to recognize them. Gypsys are different. They are very diverse within their race. They have dark eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes actually the most beautiful true green eyes are gypsy’s eyes. Some have darkish skin and others have white skin. Some have even blond hair or light brown hair. This is very true I was born in Romania and live there for 28 years. I went to school with them and was no way to know if they were Gypsies unless they will tell us. They spoke perfect Romanian with no accent at all. They will live next to you and you could not tell if they were Gypsies. Most of them will not tell you. There were also those on the streets beging women wearing the Gypsy long skirts and ” Batic” covering their heads and men with black hats that made it ovious they were Gypsys. But they too some were brunets with darkish skin and some were blonds with blue eyes or green eyes. The only thing that we were able to tell if they were Gypsies was the type of clothes they were wearing, they often talk in their own language and they were living in areas specifically created for them where they actually have houses not tents. Yes the houses were kind of rundown and the community was very very poor. But there where they lived. Most of them were selling flowers others were beging which was very common and maybe stilling. But stilling was difficult in Romania during the communist regime because Gypsies were really kept in leash. They were throwing in prison the same day for many years . There were not such thing like hearing or trial like here. So my point is that Gypsies are very diverse as a race vs Indian people who all are brunet and have dark skin. No matter what clothes they put on and have no Indian accent they still look the same and one can tell. If you meet an Indian person not wearing the typical Indian dressing you can tell is not a white person but if you meet a Gypsy not wearing typical dressing and is white with light hair and blue eyes you can tell if is Gypsy unless he or she tells you. Also most of the Gypsies dress normal except for those in Gypsies communities where no one goes. This information is not from research is from first hand knowledge and completely 100% accurate.

  390. Odyssey says:

    It seems that some, not having any specific knowledge or (counter)arguments, are trying to use provocations to ruin this discussion and this good topic. They ignore the distinction, which I emphasized, between the oldest name which proto-Slavics used for themselves (Srb) and one of their modern successors (modern Serbs or Czechs, or Slovaks, or Russians or whoever).
    Some assertions can be discussed or challenged but let repeat only couple unambiguous pillars:

    1. Aryans were proto-Slavics and 16% of modern Indians have this genetic
    2. Aryan language and Rg Veda after 4000 years are still the most similar (1/3 of Sanskrit) to modern Serbian and other Slavic languages (comment #211 is a short illustration)
    3. All Slavic languages developed from Serbian language
    So, anyone can make any assertions considering the previous. Or – the bravest can try to challenge any of previous points and propose something different.

    CM >>> good research, but some points are missing. You almost answered your own dilemmas. Isn’t it strange that Aurelian retreated from today’s Romania in 271AC and that the local language became influenced by Latin in the 19th c.AC? You already mentioned that this population (Romanian/Hungarian) were mostly Slavic. Which language these Slavic spoke in the meantime before Jesuits enforced new Latin-like Romanian language about 1600 years ago (Vatican’s ‘East Latins’ project)? Romans held 17% of today’s Romania for 160 years – is this enough to enforce Latin language on 100%? It would mean that not all East Germans than the whole united Germany now would be speaking Russian.

    It seems you don’t know about Jesuit’s activities in Romania and their several hundreds of years effort to make Vatican’s janissaries, taking youths to Paris to learn new Romanian language and sending them back home to speak new language. Their next stop of this millennial policy is Ukraine, listen what is Pope talking today and what was happening there in last 8 or 20 years. To which church Romanians belonged until 1924 (when was bought the tomos from Fanar). The head office of this church was in Alba Julia (before romanisation – Belgrade).

    Anyway, some genuine researchers would be interested in 3 min presentation by Harold Harman about the oldest European civilisation, which cradle we can watch while we listen the most beautiful Serbian waltz (composed by a Serbian Gastarbeiter in Romania).

    (or, for those who like Andre Rieu’s version – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7MDVGNBYIQ)

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  391. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    CM – if Dom people are ‘Indo-Aryan people who speak Indo-Aryan language’, what do you think – where this name came from? What is Indo-Aryan? Sanskrit? What about ‘domus’ (Latin) or ‘domestic’?

    What Google (Mariam-Webster) says about ‘dom’:
    “Where does the root word dom come from?
    Many of those words — such as domestic, domicile, domain, and even condominium — share a common root with a very long history: dom-. Domus (δόμος) means “house” in Greek, and Latin borrowed it, but its origins go much further back in time: all the way to the stone age!”

    Or, maybe something more interesting.
    What does it mean STAN in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kurdistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Rajasthan, Hindustan, Turkmenistan, etc… and where it came from?

  392. @Odyssey

    What does it mean STAN in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kurdistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Rajasthan, Hindustan, Turkmenistan, etc… and where it came from?

    It’s from Persian and Persian-influenced Turkic languages – a place or country full of or abounding in – so Afghanistan is a place full of Afghans!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @flash
    , @karel
  393. @Odyssey

    I don’t know much about the development of the Romanian language other than what I picked up looking at Wikipedia, but still I don’t understand why the Jesuits and the Vatican picked on Romania for latinisation of their language but not on any other Slavic nation including the Catholic ones.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  394. @Mermade

    Indians are very diverse. You should watch Bollywood and Indian TV – there are a lot of white looking people there who you wouldn’t know that they were Indian unless they told you so. Not all Indians are black or dark. Especially in the north you get some that look like Persian, Arab, or even European and some that look Mongol or Chinese.

    • Replies: @Malla
  395. @Odyssey

    In most Slavic languages “stan” is “apartment” but in Chech and Slovak it means “tent”. I suppose “abode” would be a good translation. So like abode of the Afganis, Pakis, Uzbeks, etc., etc.

    There is “stan” in Istanbul but it has nothing to do with this.

    Some of this stuff is hard to prove. Malla at least thinks your theory could be correct.

  396. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Apparently, it’s an ancient Indo European suffix related to the Anglo Saxon suffix ‘ -ton’ as in Brixton, Sutton, Newington etc, a thousand English place names and surnames.

    It simply means ‘settlement of’.

  397. flash says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Stan is borrowed from Sanskrit स्थान (sthā́na). Cognate with Avestan (stāna), Persian ستان‎ (-estân, “place”). It means a ‘place’ or ‘land of’, as in Afghani-stan or the land of Afghans and so on.

  398. flash says:
    @Mermade

    The peoples of the NW India (both Pakistan and India sides) have green, blue, gray, hazel, brown eyes and any mixture of these. They also have hair color ranging from a darkish blond to red, brown, copper all the way to dark hair. They also range in skin color from the lightest to wheatish. My own family has many with the most beautiful blue eyes, green gray, pure green, and amber eyes.I was born with red-gold hair that faded into a dark brown with undertones of red, as I grew up. I have the pale skin tone that goes with red hair. There is great diversity among the people of NW India, as well as the rest of India. They don’t all look alike, though it may seem that way to you.

  399. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Romanian is Latin-derived – the only such language in Eastern Europe unless you count Moldovan. Nothing to do with Jesuits. Romanians are mostly Orthodox.
    Albanian has a large number of words of Latin or Romance origin, so much so that the language has sometimes been called “semi-Romance”, although the same could be said of English. The core of the grammar however is not from Latin.

  400. @Wielgus

    Romanian presumably took its grammar structure from Latin, at least the noun declensions. The Cyrillic languages have that same structure, at least Russian and Ukrainian. Did they adopt that from Latin? Have other languages done that?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  401. @Wielgus

    Does Hungarian really have 18 cases? Why would that happen? Also, I was surprised that Mongolian had noun declensions. I wouldn’t have expected Mongolian to copy this grammatical structure.

  402. Odyssey says:
    @Odyssey

    Well, I see very productive discussion regarding STAN. Will comment on this considering that today is my ‘slava’ St George (comment #363) and I am a bit busy. All readers are invited to be gosts, ghosts or guests and experience traditional Serbian hospitality. A glass or two of ‘MEDovina’ for everyone and the real candy will be in at the end of my STAN’s comment.

    Before that, just to address previous CM’ s visionary comment re ‘dom’. Google says (#404) that “its origins go much further back in time: all the way to the stone age”! It means that it is not a Greek, nor Latin nor Indian word. It is a Neolithic word. Where was neolith? In LepenskiVir/Vincha. Which language originated there? Vincha language i.e., protoSrb i.e. or protoSlavic. What is the link btw Latin and Sanskrit? Only possible answer is – Serbian language. What is the link btw Greek and Sanskrit? Non-existent, Greeks even do not believe that Aryans ever existed because, at that time, they did not exist, either.

    Can we say that ‘dom’ is and ‘indo-european’ word/language? Everyone would say – yes – but it cannot be the case. Why? Because ‘Indo-Europeans’ (Yamnaya nomads) came to Europe in 2800-2500BC what is after the stone age. In addition, they were nomads, did not know for metals, agriculture and did not know to build houses, so, they did not have a word for ‘dom’. Ergo, CM independently, on his own, came to the same conclusion as I did before. Namely, (1) ‘dom’ is a protoSrb word which Aryans brought to India and, (2 )the mainstream term ‘indo-european’ is a crap.

  403. Odyssey says:

    It was recently a global discussion in The Guardian about the meaning of STAN in the names of many Asian countries but without much success. One version was that it came from Town >…> Stan. There is a similar version mentioned here (-ton).

    It is obvious that it has a Sanskrit origin. Sanskrit and Avestan were brought by Aryans. As I said before, Sanskrit and modern Serbian have thousands of identical or almost identical words with only one or two letters of difference.

    Well, STAN is a frequently used word in modern Serbian language. The meaning is – the place of living. For example, ‘gde STANujes?’ means, ‘where do you leave?’ It is now used in the meaning of apartment/flat/unit. For example, commonly is used as: I leave in 2-bedroom STAN, I am renting a STAN in Kiev, I bought a STAN facing the nice park, the government builds 1000 STAN-s for public servants, etc. Sometimes it has the same meaning as House or Home but not always. Not every Stan is a home, you may have several STAN-s and you may or may not feel that it is your Home.
    There are hundreds of words derived from the STAN. For example, STAN-iste, means Habitat, i.e. can be applicable not only for humans then for plants and animals, too.
    Ergo, the meaning of Afghanistan, for e.g, is – ‘the place where Afghans (Hindu, Kurds, Kazakhs, etc.) live’.

    The previous can be a part of sc. Indo-European discussion. Can anyone connect this meaning with Yamnaya (sc. ‘Indo-European’) language or any other language which allegedly succeeded from Yamnaya? It would be a paradox (as in the case of ‘dom’) considering that Yamnaya were nomads without fixed place of living.

    The meaning of the Serbian ‘stan’ is – ‘stop’. It came probably in ancient times when nomads on the move at some moment stopped and settled somewhere, making there their ‘stan’. There are many personal names/surnames containing ‘stan’ (Stanko, Stankovic, etc).
    I am surprised that the role of Jesuits in Romania is very little known. I may write couple words before Larry closes his shop.

    What about promised candy? For today is to find the meaning of BERG (or burg, borg) which is present in many names and toponyms (Heidelberg, Wittenberg, Bergen, St Peterburg, Goteborg, Hamburg, Wahlberg, Gutenberg, Magdeburg, etc.)

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  404. Wielgus says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Original Indo-European seems to have had a complex declension system. With time some have shed it. Romanian’s closest modern relative is Italian, unless you count Aromanian which is basically a series of Romanian dialects spoken in Greece, Serbia etc.
    A British reporter who went to Bucharest amid the turmoil of Ceauşescu’s ouster and death said Romanian, which he had never previously heard, sounded to him like a mix of Esperanto and Italian. Trotsky attended a Romanian socialist meeting in Bucharest in 1912 or thereabouts and commented on the basically Romance-sounding character of the language though with quite a lot of Slavic vocabulary mixed into it.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  405. karel says:
    @Mermade

    You probably have not read my comment concerning gypsy beggers in Tamil Nadu. They look much more like Gypsies in Europe than the local Tamils. I still have to meet a Gypsy with blue eyes, but perhaps my grandmother, who had blue eyes, was a crypto-gypsy and we have never discovered her true identity.

    The numerous Gypsies, I see in Prague hanging around my local metro startion come in different sizes and facial features. Some look very gypsy-like others do not. As they always move in large groups you can tell that they are all Gypsies even though you can notice the divergent facial appearance of siblings or members of a larger clan. This largely depends on who their real father was. Many prostitutes and most of their children have light complexion and European features. Czech gypsies who emigrated to the UK were often thought by the natives to be Indians. So forget the accuracy of your ”first hand knowledge” as you are not the only observer in town.

  406. karel says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Funny, stan in Czech means a tent. This can be taken as an evidence that there is not much place in the Czech Rep.

  407. Reaper says:
    @RoatanBill

    That what we commonly say in Europe:
    We do n0t have (US type) negros – but we have gypsies.
    Actually one of their modern nickname is “meadow-niggers”

  408. @karel

    “I still have to meet a Gypsy with blue eyes . . .”

    I appreciated seeing those comments. It’s interesting how different our experiences can be. In Italy, I saw many Gypsies with blue or green (sometimes) eyes, many with fair complexions and who could have easily passed for Italian or Russian. And yet there were some who were swarthy, like those in the Bond movie “From Russia with love”, and some almost undefinable. Those in Romania looked mostly very different from the Gypsies in Italy, much more “Gypsyish”.

    I have not seen the Gypsies from South America, but these appear to be typical photos:

    • Replies: @karel
    , @karel
  409. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    In Italy, I saw many Gypsies with blue or green (sometimes) eyes, many with fair complexions and who could have easily passed for Italian or Russian.

    Very well, but I hope that you will find somewhere a picture of a blue-eyed Gypsy. Those on the pics above do not seem to have them.

    How do you insert pics into your comment window? I still have not mastered it.

    If I may, I would recommend acquiring a publication by Josef Koudelka that has, in my opinion the best pics. collection of Gypsies. Apart from the Czech version, it is available in many languages. Unfortunately it is in black and white so that you will find no blue eyes there.

    Here is a video

    .

  410. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    also, I recommend

    Nikos Economopoulos gypsies in greece

  411. @karel

    I will see if I can find some photos of blue-eyed Gypsies to post.

    To include a photo in a comment, just paste in the URL of the photo. For example:

    h*ttps://www.gettyimages/gypsies.jpg (ignore the asterisk. It’s there to prevent the program from looking for a photo that doesn’t exist.)

    I will try to find the publication you suggested.

  412. @karel

    I don’t know if this might be of interest to you, but one small enjoyment with languages is identifying a person’s native language, and often their ethnic origin by the grammatical errors they make when speaking (or writing) in a second language.

    For example, native Russians for whom English is a second language, will make grammatical errors. Native Chinese for whom English is a second language will also make grammatical errors but these will be quite different from those made by the Russians. This has proven useful in assessing online comments made by persons pretending to be of a particular ethnic group. Often, they have no useful knowledge of their ‘pretend’ language and the errors they make will give them away.

    • Replies: @karel
  413. Odyssey says:
    @Wielgus

    You, a Brit and Trotsky collectively concluded what I mentioned – Romanian is Esperanto on Serbian basis. ‘Quite a lot of Slavic vocabulary mixed into it’ – This ‘Slavic’ is Serbian what is understandable because several people already mentioned that they are basically Slavics (i.e. Serbs). We can read Ovid’s letters from his exile in Constanza, where he writes about the local language. Romanian language is artificial and made to be similar to Latin, Italian, French as a part of Vatican’s master strategy.

    How do we know that ‘original Indo-European seems to have had a complex declension system, with time some have shed it (???).’ Who are the IE originals? Yamnaya nomads who lived as isolated families, which economy was based on few domesticated animals and these families followed them around the steppe. They did not know for agriculture, metals, trades, houses, etc but the mainstream has been trying to convince us that they enforced their poor language (without ‘dom’ or ‘stan’) in every corner of Europe. When they came to Europe, the indigenous people already had metals for 5K years and cities for 7K years. Sanskrit has a complex declension and gender system identical with modern Serbian (for e.g. – 1.dom, 2.(from) doma, 3.(to) domu, 4.dom, 5.(hi) dome, 6.(with) domom, 7.(about) domu; plur. – 1.domovi, 2.domova, 3.domovima, 4.domove, 5.domovi, 6.domovima, 7.domovima).

    There are few clips on Internet where we can see Indians and even blonde Chinese with blue eyes which they probably inherited from Aryans. So, it is possible that some Gypsies also got blue eyes in this way although they were not interfering much with Aryans.

    https://www.shutterstock.com/search/portrait+gypsy+blue+eyes?image_type=photo

  414. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Thanks for the advise.

    I don’t know if this might be of interest to you, but one small enjoyment with languages is identifying a person’s native language, and often their ethnic origin by the grammatical errors they make when speaking (or writing) in a second language.

    Yes I know this, as I make such mistakes when speaking German or Italian. But my first learned language was Russian not English. However, Russian is too distant from German, which has much simpler grammar, to influence my grammatical errors. I am not a linguist and was forced to learn foreign languages en passant.

    The world of gypsies is much more complicated and byond our comprehension. There are two sisters Iva and Ida and one claims to be a gypsy and the other not. Please have a look at the video and try to guess what she claims to be. She sings and old robber song about a place called “Koločava”, but in her intepretation it sounds more like kolčava, meaning a weasel town. The other singers in the set are would be robbers but not gypsies.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
    , @Skeptikal
  415. @karel

    János Kádár´s sperm donor was an Austrian soldier.

    • Replies: @karel
  416. karel says:
    @nokangaroos

    How do you know? Or are you this particular austrian soldier?

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  417. @karel

    You wanted a csigan with blue eyes;
    it may have been a Bémak – people were not that narrow about it then 😛
    (the fact of his illegitimacy was common knowledge).

    • Replies: @karel
  418. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    you get some that look like Persian, Arab,

    Arabs are themselves very diverse looking from very dark ones to European looking ones. On average more Caucasoid than South Asians, no doubt.

  419. Malla says:
    @Charles Martel France

    How do you explain that it was not difficult for the Muslims and the British to take control of India partially or not and to rule it ?

    Normally places with great agriculture potential in the Middle Zone, like India, China, Iraq, Egypt etc… had the earliest civilization because of good rivers and good agricultural lands. These places became very wealthy because of productive land, before industrial revolution, productive land = more wealth. But the populations in these places ate grain heavy diet and became weak and cowardly and would often be preyed upon by warlike protein eating nomadic populations. These nomadic warrior types would become the elites, rule over the great wealth generating territory with great agriculture lands and huge serf labour force (due to higher Malthusian carry capacity of the land). but with time these warrior elites would become decadent and would be in turn conquered by a new warrior elites. Many a times the warrior elites would become absorbed by the larger agricultural underclass serf population via serf farmer pussies in harems.
    For example, Egyptians have not been ruling themselves from the Persian conquests of Egypt (Greeks-Romans-Byzantine-Arabs-Mameluks-Turks-British etc…) until Nasser. Imagine that. India too has been facing pastoralist invastions from central Asia from ancient times even after the Aryans. Scythians, Khambojas, Hunas, Kushanas etc… They would with time get absorbed into the agricultural farmer populations. Earler they were Caucasoid, even Nordic (like the earlier Aryans) but later they became Caucasoid-Mongoloid hybrids. No problem with that. Earlier these Central Asian invaders were pagans (with similarities with primordial Vedic Hinduism) so they mixed up with the Hindu-Buddhist population. But later they were Muslims. Now it became a problem.

  420. Malla says:
    @Charles Martel France

    As far as the British, their conquest of India was not surprising. First, already by the 15th centurym Europe was far more advanced than the rest of the World. In fortifications and cannonry, the Europeans were technologically far ahead of Indian subcontinentals as well as the fact that European armies had better discipline. Over that, the British were high IQ, physically stronger and brave population. So their conquest of Indian subcontinent or the European conquest of the World is not that surprising. High IQ, plus high physical qualities plus technological advancements.
    For example, to get an idea of how advanced the Europeans were to Indian subcontinent and most of the World in fortification technology by the 15th century, take a look at this. Highly recommended.

    Military Architecture

    That is why a tiny number of British could conquer India and add to that superior governance (compared to native rulers in general), a tiny number of British could run India or even Nigeria.

    • Replies: @Anonydog
  421. @karel

    “Please have a look at the video and try to guess what she claims to be.”

    Well, I did what you said, and I have no idea how to answer your question. I need you to take mercy on me and tell me. Also, tell the story. It sounds so interesting.

    Many thanks.

    • Replies: @karel
  422. @Dumbo

    Dumbo: “Gypsies, now called ‘Roma’ to confuse them with Romanians or Romans.”

    I think you’re right about everything else, but they aren’t called ‘Roma’ as a deliberate attempt to confuse them with Romanians or Romans. It is actually their traditional name for themselves, and is likely cognate with the names of two related groups with a similar lifestyle, namely the Lom people of the Caucasus region and the Dom people of the Middle East.

    Actually the name ‘Gypsy’ may be the deliberately deceptive one, since I seem to recall reading that, on first arriving in Europe, they pretended to be Christian refugees (as well as sometimes pilgrims) expelled from newly-Muslim Egypt on account of their Christian faith in order to gain sympathy, and charity, from Christian European host populations.

  423. karel says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Her sister Ida claims to be a gypsy but Iva denies it and claims that Ida, who is also a singer, made it up to gain popularity in the enthno music scene.

  424. @Here Be Dragon

    Jews are high-functioning gypsies.

    Both are diaspora peoples living in the midst of, but retaining the same strict separation from the disdained ‘gadjo’/‘goyim’ host population, and both traditionally had the same sort of dual morality vis a vis this ‘gadjo’/‘goyim’ host population.

    Kevin Macdonald writes in ‘Diaspora Peoples’:
    Stealing from a gadje is not considered immoral, and in fact the Rom have a myth in which God allows them to steal food and other necessities because a Gypsy had swallowed a nail intended for the crucifixion of Jesus.”

    The main difference, of course, is that, whereas Jews are overwhelmingly the most disproportionately wealthy group in the world, gypsies still mostly live in squalor

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  425. @Vel - The Contemporary Heretic

    Yes, one could say that Gypsies are low-IQ Jews, while Jews are high-IQ Gypsies.

  426. Skeptikal says:
    @Odyssey

    Berg and Burg are not the same thing.

    Berg = mountain.

    Burg = fort or fortified place, as in ein feste BURG ist unser Gott

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
    , @Odyssey
  427. Skeptikal says:
    @karel

    Very intriguing clip!

    Last name Bitova looks Czech to me.

    • Replies: @karel
  428. @Skeptikal

    “Burg = fort or fortified place, as in ein feste BURG ist unser Gott.”

    I thought a ‘burg’ was a one-horse town.

  429. Atle says:

    I’ve never actually met an actual Gypsie. Really can’t be as bad as all that.

  430. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Certainly it is odd that Hungarians and Romanians have different languages from the rest of the region, and different from each other, while I suppose they are predominantly Slavic peoples in their origin.

    The ancestors of Romanians and Moldovians were Dacians, not Slavs.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
    , @Odyssey
  431. @Atle

    “I’ve never actually met an actual Gypsie. Really can’t be as bad as all that.”

    Worse.

  432. @Malla

    “The ancestors of Romanians and Moldovians were Dacians, not Slavs.”

    Must be true. Romania’s primary domestic automobile is named ‘Dacia’. Don’t know about Moldavia.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Jett Rucker
  433. Odyssey says:
    @Skeptikal

    It is very easy to distinguish old from new languages. Old languages have mostly consonants where every consonant has a specific meaning inherited from the pra-language. They sound rougher. Younger languages adopted words from older languages and usually added vowels or created new words arbitrarily without any specific meaning. With many vowels, they sound softer.

    So, the mainstream (e.g. wiki) says that ‘berg’ is ‘mountain’ but without any explanation. BERG is actually a metathesis of the Serbian word BREG (hill). Every consonant in this word has its specific meaning. Younger Slavic languages adopted this word, but they added vowels (e.g., in Russian: breg -> bereg; similarly: srb -> serb).

    I am sure that many will be surprised that this ancient Serbian word is a part of so many personal (sur)names and toponyms, similarly to previously mentioned words – med, stan, dom, ghost, etc, (none of these words were brought by Gypsies from Sanskrit).

    Let’s try another one – HOLM (e.g., Stockholm).

    • Replies: @Jett Rucker
    , @nokangaroos
  434. Odyssey says:
    @Malla

    “The ancestors of Romanians and Moldovians were Dacians, not Slavs.”

    This sentence requires a clarification. The term ‘Slavic’ can be used for events after the 7th c.AC. So, Dacians could not descend from ‘Slavics’ because this term is older. Before the 7th c.AC Slavics were ‘Serbs’ (i.e. Serbian speaking tribes) or can be used the term proto-Slavics. Dacians are one of many (old) Serbian speaking tribes. In Romania today, it is virtually suppressed the knowledge about Dacian language, because some don’t want to be seen that is very similar to old Serbian. There is a very good map presented by Here Be Dragon under K.McDonald’s Northman (#179) where we can see that Serbs, Romanians and Moldavians have the same genetics, i.e. the same origin (on the map they are named: proto-Europeans). Moldavia as a state was established by Serbian dukes.

    Btw, there is an interested detail here. The mainstream states (a falsification) that Goths were Germanics. But the Romans called Goths – Dacians!!!

    So, Goths (i.e. Dacians) were proto-Slavics. The same applies for ‘Vikings’ from the previously mentioned text – Vikings were Slavics, too, not Nordics.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  435. I remember traveling in India in the 70s….ran into a tribe of people that dressed like Gypsies…I believe they were called Lambadies. The area was Andhra Pradesh, South India on the Deccan plateau…..

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  436. Jett Rucker says: • Website
    @LH

    a documents? I didn’t read the rest of your post.

  437. Jett Rucker says: • Website
    @Odyssey

    What’s a pralanguage?

  438. Jett Rucker says: • Website
    @Larry Romanoff

    Isn’t it Moldova? Working from memory here.

  439. @Playa Slumlord

    Yes, fascinating, Here is a 4-minute video titled “Exploring the Lambadis (The Banjara Community of India) In Nazirabad Near Hyderabad”. They apparently have language and dance, but no writing.

    And another 6-minute one of their love songs.

    • Replies: @Johan
  440. @Odyssey

    Who are the Vlachs then (Vlad Tepes the Impaler was ruler of Wallachia so presumably a Vlach)? Vlachs live in territories throughout the Balkans and speak a Romanian type of language. Wouldn’t that disprove your theory that Romanian was invented as a Latin based language by Jesuits in the 19th Century as if they had an influence in Romania, as you say, how did they manage to specifically target Vlachs in other regions where they live (Serbia, Greece, Dalmatia, etc.) for adoption of the Romance language but not their majority neighbours among whom they lived for centuries? I mean so the Jesuit language influencer on his rounds visits one house but not another in a neighbourhood?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

    Their language is clearly Romanian based.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanian_language

    Tsintsars are also Vlachs, no?

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  441. @Atle

    I used to drink with a guy in my local pub and had no idea that he was a Gypsy until he actually told me. The ones who are assimilated and pale so they can pass for a European will not tell you they are a Gypsy unless they know you well so as to avoid discrimination or snide remarks. Such Gypsies are no different and no worse than other locals. Maybe you have met them without knowing it.

    Also there is a smaller number of dark skinned Gypsies in Eastern Europe who are completely assimilated and married to whites, leading perfectly normal lives just like others in their community.

  442. @Odyssey

    – I´m delighted to learn the Nordic “holm” for “island” is Serbian too;
    with Gotland right next door it stands to reason the Goths were really Serbs also
    (problem: There were bona fide Goths in the Crimea up until WWI),
    further that the Catalans (“Gotalonia”) are really Serbs (problem: The Castilian
    progeny of the Visigoths regard Catalans as a kind of jogger i.e. more likely an
    Iberian relic); it further means the Vandals were really Serbs (Now it is beginning
    to make sense).
    You see where this Panserbism leads: The Svaba (= really Serbs), led by a
    really Serbian little homo, liberated the really real Serbs from the Turks
    (who, come to think about it … 😛 ).

    – I agree as far as the Germanic-Slavic division, at least in the North, is a
    post-Roman artefact of Christianization; further than that, you´ll have to drag me by the DNA.

  443. karel says:
    @Skeptikal

    yes it is but originally german, probably jewish, derived from Bittmann.

  444. Johan says:

    So Gypsies are basically a symbol of primal human nature, they are the raw material of what humans are made of, they do not yet have a vastly refined and by now over-developed cover up and legalization system for crime and fraud as developed societies have. They do not yet have highly sophisticated methods to drain the pockets of other people.

    If the Gypsies are masters in forgery, I wonder whether they have yet successfully made any forgeries of proofs of vaccination, or whether they sell forgeries of CO2 emission rights, emulating the games of the bigger uniform and tie wearing masters of crime and forgery. This would be the ultimate humour, like forging the indulgences of the Catholics.

    The Gypsies are here to remember us.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  445. Johan says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    This is heavily commercialized Westernized trash music based on perhaps some original rhythms and melodies. Merely an example that their art forms degenerate along with the Western.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  446. @Johan

    My apologies. I didn’t know.

  447. Johan says:
    @RoatanBill

    What would you prefer, to cripple people by sending them to unnecessary war legitimized by government, or to cripple people in many many other ways officially legitimized. The practices mentioned are no less disgusting than those which are the product of developed societies. The difference is that the Gypsies are not refined enough to hide behind hypocrisy, probably some of them are rawly brute instead of refined depraved and hiding behind a curtain of law and civilization.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  448. @Johan

    I can’t speak for all parts of the world, just what I’ve seen and experienced in the US concerning war. I got drafted for Vietnam. I refused induction and alternative service since I’m no one’s slave. I got locked up in a military barracks for a short time but eventually got out when I told the costumed jerk interviewing me that I knew who my enemy was and it wouldn’t be a good idea to provide me with access to weapons. We had a robust shouting match.

    The bulk of the population that got drafted, went and helped murder people they didn’t know and that never harmed the US or anyone in it. That gov’ts think they have the right to tell people to fight, murder and possibly die is due to the morons that think gov’t is somehow above them morally. They think that gov’t represents some authority that must be obeyed. This probably stems from the idiocy of religion, especially christianity, since religion is the gateway drug leading to gov’t worship. People go to the gov’t church every so often to pray to the next POS that gets elected.

    The choice you posited is a false one. I would like the average person to tell gov’t to pound sand and refuse to serve. I would like them to wake up and realize that if their neighbor has no right to tax them, to draft them, etc, and their entire neighborhood also has no such rights, then the whole country has no such right and they should resist the mafia they elect at every opportunity.

    The State – a criminal gang with flags.
    Alan Turin

    • Replies: @Realist
  449. You seem to be very anti-militaristic and I’d say you’re a pacifist although you approve of using violence for personal self defence. I agree with you wholly on that. I think one should be able to kill in self defence and walk away no questions asked yet I have a great dislike for soldiers and soldiering. How do you then rationalise supporting the Russia military effort even to the point of them using maximum force, including nuclear? Is it then that in a struggle between good and evil you approve of the use of the military if it is by the good side? Of course many see it opposite, that Russians are the bad guys and US and NATO the good ones, even pacifist Sweden does.

  450. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    CM, I think that you are missing one Jesuit puzzle to have a complete picture. I may put later couple words. I already mentioned that Romans held 16% of today’s Romania for 160 years. Some small number of local shepherds accepted some form of vulgar Latin. ‘Romanians’ is an artificial term from 1856. The real term is ‘Vlach’. By uniting Walachia, Moldova and Transylvania, the Jesuits created Romania and invented a new (quasi-Latin) language for them. There is one excerpt:

    (Serbian) Historians have not even dealt with deciphering the name “Vlachs”, so today groups of inhabitants in Serbia under that name are considered a national minority in relation to the Serbian nation! Few words were related to the Serbian ethnic group as the word “Vlachs”. Historians fled from that determinant for Serbs, so they turned “Vlachs” into “vlachs” – emphasizing that this is the name for cattle breeders in medieval Serbia. There are some explanations here, because the Serbian (Slavic) god Voloh (Vlah) was the protector of shepherds. But historians do not explain such a simple fact – every Serbian cattle breeder is under the protection of the god Vlach (Voloha, Volos, etc.), and cattle breeding was the most widespread economic branch in the pre-industrial era.

    European peoples called Serbs Vlachs – as often as Illyrians, Rasenians, or, as Hungarians most often did – Racians. In 1630, Austria regulated the life and organization of Serbs in the Military Krajina with the Vlach Constitution (Serbian Constitution) – in Latin: Statuta Valahorum.

    Johann Baron Bartenstein, an adviser to Maria Theresa (18th c.), testified that the Austrians considered the Vlachs to be Serbs, especially if they still used the Serbian language. [12] The Austrian count Bartenstein also writes about the Serbs in today’s Transylvania, Romania. According to the Empress’s advisor, only Serbs lived here in the middle of the 18th century – without Hungarians and Romanians. They spoke Serbian. He calls those Serbs Vlachs and says that most of them are Orthodox, and some of them have recognized the Pope as their leader (uniates) – as Bartenstein writes, they are “united” (with the Roman Catholic Church).

    In short, Bartenstein cites data of the population of Transylvania from tax books and says that there are 135,000 tax households, of which 85,000 are Orthodox Serbs. Today the descendants of these inhabitants in Transylvania are Hungarians – they speak Hungarian and they are all Catholics. There are two million of them and they have a political demand for autonomy in Romania. It is interesting that these Serbs were not assimilated into Romanians, but into Hungarians. The decision was made by the Vatican and Austria in the 18th century, probably to increase the population with the Roman Catholic faith, because if they had turned them Romanian – they would have, although not Serbs, an inconvenient Orthodox population. And it would hinder – Roman Catholic expansion towards Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia, Georgia and Russia.

    CM, for you and your drinking Gypsy buddies from the corner pub, one shepherd’s’ song:

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  451. Odyssey says:

    HOLM – Hem or Helm is the old name for the Balkan Peninsula. Among the ancient Serbs, the word “hum” meant a hill (mountain), while “humka” meant a hill.

    Old Slavonic * hlъm, Old Russian hlъm and hlъmъ, Russian holm, Ukrainian holm, Old Bohemian chlm and chlum, Czech chlum, Slovak chlm, Polish chełm, Lusatian-Serbian chołm, Serbo-Croatian hum, Slovenian holm, Bulgarian хълм, originated from praSlavic xъlmъ.

    The name “Zahumlje”, for the area in today’s western Herzegovina and southern Dalmatia, originated from the original word “Hum”, or in the old Serbian language – Hlъm (for + Hum: “behind Hum”), which transcribed into Latin – Zachlumia [6], ie in the Latinized form of the basic word “Hum”: Chelmania, Chelm, Chulmorum, Chulmia and “terra de Chelmo” (Hum land).
    Indirectly, we are reminded of the same by the allegations made by its authors Jesse Russell and Ronald Cohn in their book “Michael of Zahumlje”, when they wrote about the Serbian ruler Mihajlo Višević (880 / 890-950), Prince Zahumlje (ruled: 910 -950) and the old Serbian area – Zahumlje.

    Today’s (generally accepted) name “Balkans” (for the Hum peninsula) was created in 1808 by the German geographer Johann Cojne (1778-1853) in his work “Gea”. Versuch einer wissenschaftlichen Erdbeschreibung ”(Berlin, Königreich Preußen: 1701-1918), using the Turkish name “Balkanhalbinsel”.

    After this event, the word “Balkans” began to be used as the name of the region, ie. for the Hem Peninsula. In this way, Cojne rejected the thousand-year-old tradition of the natives, as he propagated his newly composed expression to scientific circles, although never (until then) did the inhabitants of this part of Europe (or any part of Europe) denote this region.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  452. Anonydog says:
    @Malla

    You have quite an imaginative mind and your speculations are indeed quite interesting.

    I agree, the Euros from 1500s onward were undisputedly far ahead of the rest of the World in almost every area and the copium for that fact is the main driving force of politics today (globally)

    However, I got to say you betray a sly pro-Islamic bias, and I am highly suspicious our your incessant kissing up to Euros-whites. What is your story? A stealth Muzzie?

    Anyway, In this case, you conveniently overlook the fact, Hindu India (the real India) was at it’s lowest point in about 800-1000 years when the British arrived. And the Muslim colonial Empire in India was teetering at the edge of collapse. So India was quite ripe for the taking when the Europeans arrived.

    And China was pretty much in the same situation, while never taken over explicitly was completely dominated by the Europeans and more shamefully by even the lesser (at that time) Japanese.

    • Replies: @Larry Romanoff
  453. @Odyssey

    Thanks. Much of what you write seems reasonable, but ..

    Durin the Roman Empire Latin would have been the Lingua Franca in the region but if Vlach shepherds belonged to an older pre-Roman people it is unlikely that they would have adopted Latin but rather stuck to their own older language. I can understand people in the cities adopting Latin but shepherds in the hills? Often these kind of people retain their own language as they don’t come under the strong influence of the ruling powers that come and go.

    I agree that there is a hidden history, that historical truth has been suppressed, but the historical revisionists can take it too far in the other direction making claims that could be untrue. Of course many modern languages were standardised in the 19th Century, especially as many nation states were emerging in the period, from Germans and Italians by unification to the Balkan nations by liberation from the Ottomans, but I am unconvinced that Romanian a language that was completely invented at that time.

    I have for example heard it said that the Macedonian language was entirely made up by Tito’s communists in the administrative region of the Yugoslav Macedonian Republic after WWIi and this is patently false. This is recent history which is well known yet some historical revisionists are trying to falsify it. If you check you will find that the Macedonian language was widely used prevWWII and the official court and legal documents of that region in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia were not written in the Serbian but the Macedonian language. Now if you claim that Macedonian is some version of Serbian and shouldn’t even be called a “Macedonian” language that is different and could be true although it also sounds similar to Bulgarian. Do you think that Macedonian, and/or Bulgarian are more closely related to old medieval church Serbian?

    And then how about the Slovenian language? How did that develop to be different from SerboCroatian?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @Odyssey
  454. A brief introduction to gypsies aka “Roma & Sinti” BS in a rather “practical” sense of the s word:
    https://sputniknews.com/20220510/faeces-flinging-roma-war-in-central-stockholm-goes-viral--video-1095388221.html

  455. @Odyssey

    Neither the Maya nor the Lakota nor Leif Eiriksson nor (((Columbus)))
    (who famously brought slavery to America and syphilis to Europe) ever
    called it “America” either … those pesky German geographers – those
    Flurnamen imperialists!!!
    – If I understand you correctly you postulate a Bronze Age* lingua franca
    along the ancient trade routes** that only survived in a refractory backwater;
    while that strikes the humble one as far-out Illyrist it is not unreasonable –
    the Bajuvars took largely empty lands in the 8.-11. centuries AD.

    *The “Serbs”s.ll. you describe are clearly younger than the
    “Early Anatolian Farmers” (Chalcolithic, +/- Megalithic; Ötzi)
    (inhowfar the Albanians are a relic is open for debate) but maybe older
    than the Dorian Invasion and ?the Sea Peoples, hence the constraint.
    The claim to Vinca is a bit reminiscent of the ulema pilpul on why Adam was
    a Muslim (“It is written that Adam was called before the throne of the Most High;
    it is also written that the name of the rasûl – alayhis salam – is inscribed on
    the throne, so it was only natural for Adam to ask who that “Mohammed” was”.
    I should probably note there are shameless kaffir “scholars” who dispute that)
    But, all is not lost! No one yet managed to prove Linear B is not Serbian.

    **In much the same way Turkic, Persian and Arabic commingle along the Silk Road.

  456. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There are “language wars” amid Slavic languages, aggravated by the fact that they tend to be rather similar and sometimes shade into one another. Slovak soldiers sent to the Eastern Front as part of the Axis in WW2 tended to find that they could communicate with Ukrainian peasants, even though Slovak is usually placed in Western Slavic and Ukrainian in Eastern Slavic.
    Bulgarians have historically regarded Macedonian as a form of western Bulgarian.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  457. Liza says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Off-topic:

    Re: DSM-5. Germophobia (mysophobia) is written up in the diagnostic manual. In case you have not noticed, societies everywhere are jam-packed with “people” (androids might be a better word) suffering this condition – so prevalent that they happily stick their arms out to receive poisons in their blood; cover most of their faces; avoid contact with everybody, even close family members; and generally harbor feelings of rage toward those who are not afflicted with their own mental pathology. Billions consider these “germs” to be at least as dangerous as radioactive plutonium dust if it’s inhaled. It’s true.

  458. @Anonydog

    “Hindu India (the real India) was at it’s lowest point in about 800-1000 years when the British arrived. So India was quite ripe for the taking when the Europeans arrived.” “And China was pretty much in the same situation.”

    I see that Hasbara’s Jewish 50-cent Army is still alive. I was surprised you would want to tell such outrageous lies. It wasn’t the “Europeans” who arrived to depopulate India and loot it until there was no remaining flesh on the bones. It was the Jews who arrived, specifically Rothschild and his British East India Company, and David Sassoon and his ilk. Between the two, they looted and destroyed both India and China. The truths of all this can no longer be buried.

    • Replies: @Anonydog
  459. @Wielgus

    Just like Latin languages are mutually understandable and similar, to an extent, so are the Slavic languages. Latin people can easily learn each other’s languages as can the Slavs their own different languages I guess they fight over whose language had precedence and was the original proto language. With Latin languages it was obviously Latin but with Slavic ones it is not so obvious. Odyssey seems to think it was Serbian.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  460. @Johan

    You raise an interesting point … how did that lifestyle evolve?
    It cannot be “primitive”, as it presupposes a host.
    – In parts of Central Africa and the Sudan the metalsmiths are a separate
    (but non-itinerant) caste; they are pariahs but must not be killed, and have
    magical knowledge. There are echoes of this in Germanic (Wölundr, Laurin),
    Baltic (Perkunas) and Greek (Hephaistos, Daidalos) lore; so maybe they just
    oozed into a preexisting archetype/niche, a niche that no longer exists?
    The “classic” csigan skillset – horses, tinkering, music, whoring and liberating –
    is one of camp followers to a conquering army, and everybody and his mama
    (with certain exceptions 😛 ) has used them as such.
    But the Thirty Years´War found them already in full, erm, “bloom”.
    That leaves only the Mongols as their primary employers.

  461. Wielgus says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Church Slavonic, the first Slavic language to be culturally influential because it is a liturgical language, has been described as essentially Old Bulgarian.
    If anything Slavic languages are closer to each other than Romance ones. The cultural divide between Catholic Slavs and Orthodox ones is not replicated with the Romance languages but explains why the Catholics use Latin alphabets and the Orthodox Cyrillic, a derivative of the Greek alphabet.

  462. Anonydog says:
    @Larry Romanoff

    Dude, what is your problem? A Jew who accuses a non-Jew stranger for being a Jew hasbara? Are you high, or something? I am starting to hate Jews more than you, Jew. LOL. So perhaps we may find common ground after all. LOL
    BTW. I am not Hindu either. even though what I am is beside the point.

  463. Realist says:
    @RoatanBill

    That gov’ts think they have the right to tell people to fight, murder and possibly die is due to the morons that think gov’t is somehow above them morally.

    And morons that think gov’t is somehow above them mentally…although in some cases it is.

    But generally, it is the stupid leading the stupid.

    • Agree: RoatanBill
    • Troll: GKWillie
  464. @ginger bread man

    Some more articles on Unz.com about Gypsies:
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/gypsy-facts/
    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/gypsies/

    Another documentary about gypsies in the USA:
    It’s called Searching for the 4th Nail (2009):
    https://www.romarchive.eu/en/collection/searching-for-the-4th-nail/
    Apparently, there are over 1 million gypsies in America.

    Here’s the description of the documentary:

    The protagonist of the 2009 documentary Searching for the 4th Nail (2009), George Eli, is also its director, as he joins his sons Alexander and Christopher in searching for their Romani identity and their roots in American history. Searching for the 4th Nail reveals the diversity of Romani communities and successfully shows modern-day Romani life in America. George’s trip starts with a visit to his parents’ grave, where he offers them some coffee and pastries, in accordance with traditional Romani customs. At the beginning of their quest, George and his sons are puzzled because they all have some issues surrounding what it means to be Roma or ‘Gypsy’. George, for his part, has no more than the mythical story about the fourth nail of Jesus, which was stolen by the ‘Gypsies’. As schoolboys, Alexander and Christopher want to be like their peers, and have little more than a stereotyped understanding of ‘Gypsies’ which they cannot identify with.

    Throughout the progression of their quest, the viewer is allowed to follow their journey closely and concentrate on their emotions. The authentic voice is ensured by the intimate closeness, and it helps the viewer to understand the Romani culture from inside, through the lens of the Roma protagonist. The aforementioned authenticity is strengthened by the subjective yet simple author-driven narration. They are continually led back to popular culture, Hollywood movies, story books and mainstream media through their encounters with elements of stereotyping. In order to get some insight into the history of Romani people with the help of science and other cultural fields, they visit institutions (e.g. Ellis Island Immigration Museum and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum), conferences, festivals and symposiums. They also talk with survivors, activists and museum curators, scholars in Romani studies, film experts, religious pastors and even with a traditional Roma fortune teller. George uses both human memory and the World Wide Web as he maps his family history with the help of his grandfather and home video footage. He even asks people on the streets about the overall picture of Romani people and the reasons why they are stereotyped.

    Although at some points he feels despair about the topic, for instance at the Romano Drom Symposium and Festival in 2004 organised by the University of Toronto, where no Romani people were present in the audience, he eventually gains some support. This includes Hillary Clinton’s speech about Roma human rights and a letter written to George by Johnny Depp.

    It is clear that making this highly informative and fresh film was an educational process not only for George, but also for his sons, as well as for the audience. Driving home at the end of the film, he concludes with his sons that someone has to learn about their roots to be a greater person. It certainly has a positive impact on the self-esteem of Roma, and helps the majority to break with stereotypes and learn about the history of Romani people. In this way, they can become conscious of both the real and fictitious aspects of social discourse about Romani communities. Discerning between the two types of discourse, they can dispose with both stereotypes and self-refusal, which is one way to become an efficient platform for affirmative identity politics. That is why the keywords of the film are education, learning, lesson and teaching, both family and institutional. As he reaches the concluding lesson of the trip on the drive home, we see pictures of his father from a home video, emphasising the importance of learning and passing on family identity to the next generations. That is how the boys learn to express their respect for their ancestors in the cemetery, where the project once started – with the ‘Romani tradition of remembrance’, as George explains.

    The film concludes that we should get rid of myths and stereotypes, and become educated, just as Alexander and Christopher do. Searching for the 4th Nail won the Best Filmmaker Award at the Connecticut Film Festival (2009), partly due to its great historical relevance; it is one of the first documentary films in the USA in which Roma speak in their own voice.

  465. Odyssey says:

    @ CM @ Wielgus

    You are missing some basics, but it is understandable, although, I don’t know your backgrounds, because I don’t know Larry’s methodology to recognize someone’s backgrounds based on their grammatical errors (I wonder if he can recognize my background based on many grammar and spelling errors in my previous comments).

    Anyway, there is no ‘language war’ amid Slavic languages, we all can, better or worse, understand each other. Anyone who knows a little bit old history knows that first European civilisation was born in Lepenski Vir/Vincha, where achieved very high levels (e.g. 1st industrial revolution 10K ago). I said that Vinca people called themselves ‘cousins, the members of the same race’ (i.e ‘srb’). Because we call this language ‘srbski’ (Serbian). From this ancient ‘srb’ language, all other Slavic languages (including modern Serbian which preserved the original name) developed. First (after Serbian) was Russian in the 8th c.AC, others much later, some very recently. Linguists very easily can see which language is older (I provided one example with Serbian ‘breg’ and Russian ‘bereg’).

    Bulgarians were an Asiatic tribe which came in 590AC to Besarabia (today’s Romania). They got permission to settle in Walachia. In 677 led by karan Asparuh crossed the Danube and came to today’s Bulgaria. Indigenous Serbs lived there. There were tensions until the 9th century when Bulgars also converted to Christianity. Han Boris became Michael. Original Bulgarian Asiatic language was not spoken at that time. Serbian language was spoken without many differences until the 18th c when was artificially changed to leave impression of separate language. Bulgarians are ethnically about 80-90% Serbs.

    Macedonians are invented nation. Communists and Kominterna were a globalist movement, and their policy was to destroy Serbian national corpus by creating artificial nations with artificial languages (Macedonians, Montenegrin, Bosniacs and earlier Croats or Romanians by Vatican). Communists took one Serbian dialect in old Serbia (today’s Macedonia) which was the most different from the standard Serbian and in two weeks created new language, new nation and appropriated Serbian churches in Macedonia, some 1000 years old, and they announced the new Macedonian Orthodox Church. Since Alexander until 1945, Macedonian name and language did not exist so, neither any their history. In Macedonia (Skopje) was the centre and the capital of Serbian medieval kingdom.

  466. Odyssey says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Vlachs are Serbs. In the Roman Empire, they worked in military garrisons, in trade centres, in the palaces of nobles, in the ports on the Danube and in Moravia, and they had to speak Latin. They never taught him well and spoke to the Romans semi-Serbian-semi-Latin. And so, the Vlach, Tzintzars, Aromanian (on the Adriatic) languages were born. The Romanian language was created by Vatican, Turkey and Austria from the 17th to the 19th century, so that the Serbs in Romania and Moldova could be declared as Romanian, i.e. non-Serbian nation. The language of the population was Serbian with many Latin loanwords. That is how the Germans and the Vatican began to build Romanian – they added more loanwords and increasingly threw out Serbian words. At the end of the 19th century, 43% of Serbian words were removed from that language, and words of Romance languages were introduced instead. But even today, about 30% of Serbian words are in Romanian.

  467. @Here Be Dragon

    Don’t know about oriental but certainly dark skinned. Also, this idea that biological origin can be determined by language is very suspect. Finnish sounds Asian but Finns don’t look very Asian. Ditto for Hungarians. Language can be influenced by a small number of elite invaders that mix with the local elites but don’t have a big effect on overall genetic make-up. The Normans in England would be a good example (English has many French words, but most English people aren’t genetically French).

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  468. Odyssey says:

    @CM

    All Orthodox nations were baptized on their own languages – Armenians, Georgians, Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs. Romanians, too – on their Serbian language. The service in Romanian churches and administration were on Serbian language. All Romanian Orthodox churches were under jurisdiction (and ownership) of the Serbian Orthodox Churches until 1864 (some churches until 1919). Vatican’s and Austria’s politics (16-19 c. AC) was to create an artificial identity and language and separate Romanians and Moldovans from their Serbian roots giving them a fake Roman identity.

    Jesuits, via Ladislav Barnjai started negotiating with Serbian Erdely Mitropolit (bishop) Teofil Seremi in Erdely Belgrade (Alba Julia) to make a Union of Serbian churches in today’s Romania and Roman Catholics. After lot of pressure and politics the union with Jesuits was signed in 1700. All documents were signed in Serbian language (which now call ‘old Romanian language’). Iliju Barbulesku named this period as the ‘Slavic period of Romania’. Jesuits established the School of Ardeleana which started the conversion of local Serbs and Slavic people from three independent Danube principalities with their princes to be a part of the artificial Romanian nation. In the first version of Romanian language were 50% of Serbian words. Subsequent language ‘purification’ campaigns reduced this percentage to 25%. Educated people at the time in Romania were mostly of foreign origin and directed by Habsburgs. Campaigns were conducted primarily in education, schools, press and literature.

    Vatican’s ‘East Latins Project’ – was executed in Paris in the 19th century. They brought youngsters from Vlachia to teach them a new language and alphabet and to later work as missionaries back at home. The ruler at the time was a Greek (Ispilate) who approved this. It was very similar to Ottomans who were taking by force 5 years old boys from Serbia to make them janissaries, the elite Ottoman soldiers. Greeks Phanariotes then replaced church service in Vlachia from Serbian language to Latin.

    In 1791, Jesuits’ School of Ardeleana initiated Supplex Libellus Valachorum Transsilvaniae – the first political request for uniting of three principalities based on romanization idea. In Moldavia (which was established by Serbian duke Dragosh and followed by duke Bogdan, who liberated people from Hungarians and because all Moldavian people were called Karabogdan-es) Serbs were majority in the 17th century. They had well developed church education and many Serbs from Baltic and Lvov were coming there for education in Serbian language and church singing. As so-called Macedonian Orthodox church, established by communists, Romanian state bought tomos of autocephality for Romanian Orthodox Church in 1925 which immediately converted to Latin alphabet, new Romanian language and Gregorian calendar.

  469. Sparkon says:
    @Alt Right Moderate

    Also, this idea that biological origin can be determined by language is very suspect.

    Agreed. All the more so as we have no written records going back more than about 5,000 years.

    I think it stands to reason that language itself was fairly well developed before its written forms appeared, although it is certainly possible that some earlier people may have had a written language that was not set down in durable form.

    All we know for sure is that language seems to have been well developed by the time men did begin to write in durable form.

    Most of the discussion here has been about fairly recent developments in language and/or nationality, while our species Homo sapiens is said by some authorities to have arisen about 300,000 years ago. Early Modern Humans, our immediate predecessors, are sometimes called Cro-Magnon men, although that term has fallen out of favor. In any case, EMH were a little beefier than we are, with particularly strong femurs, better teeth, and a bigger brain case…

    Relative brain size of Homo did not change from 1.8 to 0.6 mya. After about 600 kya it increased until about 35,000 years ago, when it began to decrease. Worldwide, average body size also decreased in H. sapiens from 35,000 years ago until very recently, when economically advanced peoples began to grow larger while less-privileged [sic] peoples did not.

    https://www.britannica.com/science/human-evolution/Increasing-brain-size

  470. xxxeliss says:

    Irish/British travellers like the Yenouche and other minor Ethnic europeans itinerant people are not related to Gypsies. The academic consensus is that Gypsies/Roma/Sinti came from the Indian subcontinent , most of them don’t assimilate, nor send they children to school or in some cases don’t even speak the majority language, the minority that assimilates often marry Europeans

  471. anon[188] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    …One more item – it would be illuminating to research how the Bzyantines treated the gypsies….

    That is brilliant. Byzantium basically ruled over tribes (rather than geography) , so it would be very illuminating to find out how the Byzantium rulers governed gypsies.

  472. bronekc says:

    Several decades ago I wrote an article about that ethnic group. I can’t recall the norm de plume utilized. What I do recall is the Polish government provided homes for them. The men resided on the top floors the woman on the lower levels. The females often engaged in prostitution.

    They were known for their pilfering of others. Often women would come to the front doors of homes and pleasantly engage residents. Some were attractive and held babies. Their men would enter in the back and steal households and homesteads.

    When in Rome I was a friend to two writers. One day they took me to a tourist center and I was instructed to just eat, sit and watch. Gypsies would use special razor type tools to cut back pockets and other areas of tourists pilfering goods and money. The tourists would later think the thieves were Romans. A favorite trick was to take the camera of tourist and have them back away for the photograph(s). Instead of taking a picture, they would runoff with the aparat.

    Overall, they would rely on the sympathy of native populations in order to continue their parasitical existence and engage in thievery. In all areas that I’ve visited they were disliked by the native populations.

    By the way half a century ago -I have no idea of the current situation- there was an enormous gypsy population in Budapest. As in all areas of wandering or residence they were deemed as problematic. A most essential place of work would be centers where tourists mingled.

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