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At a time when there are concerns that Covid is being over-diagnosed, and its impact exaggerated, it is useful to look at another claim: that traumatic events in childhood have a major effect for the rest of a person’s life.

On 18 November 1987 a fire at King’s Cross Underground station in London killed 31 people, and the next day, with two colleagues, we established a trauma service for survivors and their families. In the next decades I worked on many disasters, and in all of these we were not only providing therapy, but were also interested in understanding whether the severity of the actual trauma or the vulnerability of the victim was the main factor in them being disabled by the event. Most of the events were horrendous, with high death rates, in one case 50% dead, so we had no doubt that they close to combat stresses in their intensity. Our impression was that both the severity of the event and the personality of the victim were equally important, but the correlations for each factor with psychological symptoms were only r=.35 so not that big.

At that time the concept of post-trauma stress was far less known and accepted, but as time went by it became applied to a very broad range of life events. In particular, one type of trauma, child sexual abuse, became far more frequently used as a diagnosis, usually on the basis of therapist-assisted recall of childhood events. This became a minefield, as more and more patients claimed their lives had been ruined by their parents.

There were certainly well documented cases of child sexual abuse, so distinguishing between real and possibly imagined cases became important, but very difficult to achieve in therapeutic practice. In a disturbing move, some therapists said it was wrong to doubt any patient’s account of having been abused as a child. Other therapists circulated credulous accounts of satanic ritual abuse which, if true, would have been far easier to track down and prosecute than the hidden abuse taking place by individuals in private houses or children’s care homes, simply because there were more witnesses, and more chance of blackmail and denunciations and a collapse of the conspirators. Also, in the accounts of child sacrifices, there were further lines of police inquiry.

There is no doubt that some adults abuse children and are rightly convicted of their crimes, and that the plea of “no harm done” is rightly rejected because children cannot give informed consent. There is no doubt that child abuse is often difficult to prosecute, because children may not be able to understand what is happening. At the same time, some assumptions may be wrong. At a big conference of therapists I was astounded to hear a lecture discussing satanic rituals as if they were both real and frequent, and even more astounded to find audience members agreeing, without supportive evidence.

Bewildered by this, I wondered why no one was following up actual documented cases of child abuse, to see what psychological effects could be traced back to actual real events. I knew some people were doing a prospective study, and also knew it would take a long time to be completed, so it was a matter of waiting. Now that study has been published, and in my view the results are explosive. The big determinant of bad effects from traumatic childhood events is whether you think they happened, not whether they actually happened.

Objective and subjective experiences of child maltreatment and their relationships with psychopathology Andrea Danese & Cathy Spatz Widom. Nature Human Behaviour volume 4, pages 811–818 (2020)
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-020-0880-3

The authors say:

Does psychopathology develop as a function of the objective or subjective experience of childhood maltreatment? To address this question, we studied a unique cohort of 1,196 children with both objective, court-documented evidence of maltreatment and subjective reports of their childhood maltreatment histories made once they reached adulthood, along with extensive psychiatric assessment. We found that, even for severe cases of childhood maltreatment identified through court records, risk of psychopathology linked to objective measures was minimal in the absence of subjective reports. In contrast, risk of psychopathology linked to subjective reports of childhood maltreatment was high, whether or not the reports were consistent with objective measures. These findings have important implications for how we study the mechanisms through which child maltreatment affects mental health and how we prevent or treat maltreatment-related psychopathology. Interventions for psychopathology associated with childhood maltreatment can benefit from deeper understanding of the subjective experience.

This is a pivotal issue in psychology. Should we be helping people overcome a real-life event, or correcting a damaging mis-perception? The therapeutic approaches would probably be very different. Court cases are highly detailed specific events, which act like a radioactive tracer for later life outcomes. If childhood traumas have the status they are accorded in Freudian thinking, then children whose abuse is bad enough to have the parents taken to Court should be highly disturbed, and permanently so. The results will be worse than that caused by ordinary parents, who sometimes argue, punish unfairly and are generally tedious, or worse, embarrassing. If parents mess you up, then these Court cases will be picking up the extreme examples of parental mistreatment.

On the other hand, Court cases are not sensitive, in the sense of picking up all cases of abuse, but they will provide a solid benchmark for evaluating outcomes in those actually abused.

We have studied one such unique sample. Maltreated participants (n = 908) were identified as victims of child abuse or neglect based on official records from juvenile (family) and adult criminal courts in a metropolitan area in the Midwest United States during 1967–1971. A comparison group was painstakingly drawn of children without official records of abuse or neglect matched on the basis of age, sex, race/ethnicity and approximate family social class at the time of the child maltreatment (n = 667). During a follow-up assessment between 1989 and 1995 (mean age 28.7 years), 1,196 study participants underwent a 2-hr in-person interview, which included assessment of retrospective reports of childhood physical abuse, sexual abuse and neglect, as well as assessment of current and lifetime psychopathology.

Objective and subjective measures of child maltreatment identified largely distinct groups of participants (Cohen’s κ = 0.25) with poor agreement across all maltreatment types (child physical abuse κ = 0.09; child sexual abuse κ = 0.17; child neglect κ = 0.32, consistent with meta-analytical findings.

It was possible to separate the relative contribution of objective and subjective measures of child maltreatment to psychopathology studying three target groups: (1) adult participants who were identified as victims of child maltreatment by virtue of official records but did not retrospectively recall the experience (objective measure); (2) adult participants who were identified as victims of child maltreatment by virtue of official records and also retrospectively recalled the experience (objective and subjective measures); and (3) adult participants who retrospectively recalled being maltreated in childhood but were not identified as victims of child maltreatment by virtue of official records (subjective measure).

We found that participants identified as victims of child maltreatment only by virtue of official records did not have different risk of any lifetime psychopathology compared to those with neither objective nor subjective measure of childhood maltreatment (objective measure: risk ratio, RR = 0.92). In contrast, participants with both objective and subjective measures of child maltreatment showed greater risk of any lifetime psychopathology compared to those with neither measure (objective and subjective measures: RR = 1.35. Finally, participants identified as victims of child maltreatment only through retrospective recall also showed elevated risk of any lifetime psychopathology compared to those with neither measure (subjective measure: RR = 1.29).

So, if you had actual maltreatment as shown by a Court case, but you did not recall it, you were left no more disturbed than the general public. Those who had been maltreated and recalled it were more likely to be disturbed, and those who reported abuse even without objective evidence were also more disturbed.

These are interesting charts. First, if you look at the Venn diagrams it is clear that the most common form of child maltreatment to come before the Courts is neglect. Physical and sexual abuse are far rarer (or far more difficult to detect). This has been known for a long time, but media tend to publicize sexual abuse. Second, if you look at the histograms, the column for the control group has been shown in such light grey that it is invisible. You can only detect it by looking at the error bars. These show that children who have gone through bad events are no more affected than children who haven’t gone through those events, so long as they don’t recall them. The devil lies in the recall. A corollary is that if your recall is faulty, you may suffer from your mis-perceptions.

In their discussion, the authors say:

The risk of psychopathology linked to objective experiences of childhood maltreatment, even for severe cases of maltreatment identified through official court records, is minimal in the absence of a subjective appraisal. In contrast, the risk of psychopathology linked to subjective experiences of childhood maltreatment is high, whether or not subjective appraisal is consistent with objective measures. The findings were remarkably invariant across different types of maltreatment and psychopathology and across genders and races, expanding initial observations made with regard to drug abuse in this cohort. These results suggest that psychopathology emerges as a function of subjective rather than objective experience of childhood maltreatment.

As discussed before, Courts won’t pick up all the cases of child mistreatment, so there will be many false negatives. Those with a “subjective” appraisal may have been maltreated, and never properly investigated. Nonetheless, the apparent preponderance of the “subjective” group leads us to doubt the directly causal nature of childhood events.

Because of the low agreement between objective and subjective measures of childhood maltreatment, aetiological studies based on subjective measures of maltreatment are unlikely to identify damages or abnormalities linked to actual exposure to maltreatment; rather, they are likely to identify correlates of unhelpful cognitions/memories about the self and the environment, which appear crucial to understanding risk of psychopathology.

Unhelpful cognitions are of course a big part of all emotional distress, regardless of life events. The authors continue:

Studies with sampling based on objective measures will be needed to understand why some maltreated children develop subjective appraisal of their ordeal while others do not, for example investigating the severity of the actual maltreatment experience, the intensity of subjective distress reported by maltreated children, the age at which the abuse took place, the role of social care involvement in buffering or accentuating the distress and the experience of later adversity. Finally, studies with sampling based on objective measures will also be needed to understand why some adults develop subjective appraisal of childhood maltreatment in the absence of objective experience, including the role of residual memory biases linked to previous psychopathology, personality, suggestibility and source-monitoring errors.

Even in the absence of an actual experience of child maltreatment, some individuals may endorse cognitions/memories about themselves and their childhood environment that amount to a subjective experience of maltreatment, which is also associated with elevated risk of psychopathology. Faulty memories, or apparent memories elicited by faulty procedures may be the causes of psychological distress.

In fact, the most common form of difficulty in this group was alcohol misuse, then drug misuse; and a step down after that PTSD, depression and anti-social personality. There was little generalized anxiety, which is a surprising finding.

When drawing up the control group, it was found from Court records that 11 children had been maltreated, so they were dropped from the group. This gives a very rough estimate of the rate of abuse (mostly neglect) in this sort of child population, which is 11/667 or 1.7%. This is a useful statistic, and serves as a benchmark for the prevalence of child maltreatment as detected by legal procedures in this US Mid-West population in the 1970s.

Talking about those abused, the authors say: “Approximately half the sample are female (48.7%) and about two-thirds are white (62.9%)”. Not mentioned is that in 1970, the US Mid-West population of 56.5 million was 91.4% white, 8.1% black.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2002/demo/POP-twps0056.pdf The relevant table is on page 21.

The composition of the abused sample (for lifetime pathology) is n=735 participants of White ethnicity (65.4%) and n=389 participants of Black ethnicity (34.61%). If the court cases are representative of the extreme end of child maltreatment in the community, it would appear that black children were abused at 4.3 times their expected rate. US nationwide assessments made in 1996 give the non-white percentage of abused children at 23% to 26% (pages 187 and 189).

https://library.childwelfare.gov/cwig/ws/library/docs/gateway/Blob/13635.pdf?w=+NATIVE%28%27IPDET+PH+IS+%27%27nis-3%27%27%27%29&upp=0&rpp=-10&order=+NATIVE%28%27year%2Fdescend%27%29&r=1&m=6

In summary, this good paper by Danese and Widom has taken a forensic look at child maltreatment, and has shown that there is no direct link between the event and subsequent emotional responses. Responses depend on personal interpretation and recall. Even more, it has shown that simply thinking you have been maltreated, even when there is no objective proof of it, is sufficient for emotional distress to occur. The authors are too cautious to spell it out, but some persons alleging that they were maltreated in childhood may be mistaken. Worse, they may be making false allegations against their parents.

The paper does not report assessing the parents in any way as regards their own mental health. Perhaps there are data in the Court records somewhere. If so, it would be essential to include them, because as it currently stands there is a profound genetic confound here. Disturbed parents are more likely to have disturbed children, and incidentally are also more likely to not care for them properly, because these parents are subject to emotional and educational difficulties of their own which diminish their ability to care for their children. On this important matter, the paper is silent. In other work the lead author has looked at the interplay between trauma and the polygenic risk scores for major depression, finding that they interact in a complex manner, so there is more that can be said about this.

But, to sum it all up, as Marcus Aurelius did in his Meditations:

If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”

 
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  1. This is simply stunning. I worked in acute psychiatric emergencies for forty years and well remember the Satanic Ritual Abuse fad. I had long ago also noticed the was some lack of correlation between severity of abuse and severity of symptoms, but had not quite put together the solution that you note here: the subjective impression is the driving force.

    Yet could this not be the cart instead of the horse? Those whose lives have fallen apart and who feel terrible need some explanation for why this is. With paranoid schizophrenia, the belief that there is something going terribly wrong with the world precedes the identification of who, exactly is doing the bad things.* I have seen many patients on first break who are trying to puzzle out who it is that is “talking” to them and what is being said, only to see them on readmission after it has solidified into a fixed delusion. So also with depression and anxiety, where the symptoms occur first, and the mind goes looking for an explanation of what the likely cause is.

    As for the other fad of that era, Multiple Personality disorder, I never saw a case that was not therapist-induced.

    So those with unstable relationships, substance issues, impulsivity, self-harm and the other common symptoms in that array must have a reason why their lives suck. The mind will not tolerate “No Answer,” and will pursue relentlessly until an answer is found.

    *This is true of political paranoias as well, which is why the identification of who the Illuminati, the International Bankers, the Lizardmen change over the years. They know it’s someone, some conspiracy that is ruining everything for the decent folks. Those who are actually oppressed can usually identify who is making it happen pretty clearly.

  2. HA says:

    “Should we be helping people overcome a real-life event, or correcting a damaging mis-perception? “

    During the Catholic priest-child-abuse scandals, I came across one surprising claim that from the 50’s to the mid-70’s (i.e. when the abuse peaked), child psychologists believed that non-violent rape of a child (or as Whoopi Goldberg would say “not RAPE rape”, or as Michel Foucault would have it, “consensual”) would cause no lasting damage to the childas long as the courts and the parents didn’t make a big issue of it.

    [MORE]

    It seemed too absurd to be true, but as I read further, it made more sense. Apparently, the so-called “experts” assumed that the trauma of rape was merely a “social construct” derived from all the hang-ups that a sexually repressed society (i.e. lumpenproles and bourgeoise and other such rubes) attached to it. The infamous case of the boy with the mangled penis whose parents were advised by “experts” to simply raise him as a girl, and which for many years was regarded as proof that this “blank slate/social construct” paradigm of gender was absolutely correct (before it tragically ended). When Chomsky first proposed that the acquisition of language involved “deep structure” he was ridiculed for his “medieval” thinking. (Marxists academics didn’t want anyone interfering with their new-man brain plasticity theories with which they were going to remake the world.) It was so bad that when they tried to reform age-of-consent laws in France in the 70’s, people like Sartre and Foucault argued that children were being deprived of their “right” to have sex with adults. In Germany, foster children were INTENTIONALLY placed with pedophiles for decades, because it was assumed that pedophiles, by their nature, would be especially devoted to their charges.

    And to some extent, it seems as if the lunacy torch was simply passed from one set of radicals to another. Alan Ginsburg was an enthusiast of child porn and pedophilia, and was also once very friendly with feminist Andrea Dworkin (who was said, with at least some, if not complete, justification–to believe that every sex act was rape) but they had a bitter falling out over this issue, and her views have, to some extent, prevailed. I’m definitely more on team Dworkin when it comes to child rape, but that’s because I side with the lumpenproles and bourgeoise (who didn’t use pretty words like “sexual awakening” to obscure what was really at stake regarding the creepy men who were hoping to “initiate” their children even while the forward-thinkers and the literati, with their Updike and Roth and Margaret Mead, were claiming this was nothing anyone needed to be judgmental about). I’m also glad that ideas of “consent” have greatly evolved. But Dworkin is still a loon, and the fact that Ginsburg is even more disturbed is cold comfort.

    The other disastrous effect of these “brain plasticity” theories was that psychologists believed — as late as the early 90’s — that pedophilia could readily be rehabilitated, and that as a result, incarceration was wrong-headed and inhumane. (I suspect some of that changed only because if that were true, it would mean homosexuals could also be “straightened” and eventually it became verboten to even suggest that).

    So. one major reason why so many church and scout and school bureaucrats decided to simply hush things up (not that they ever needed an excuse to do that) as well as simply ship a predator to rehab, mark him as “cured” and then set him loose on a fresh set of victims, was because that was, in effect, what the experts were claiming was in the best interest of every one.

    The point is, times change. Nowadays, Catholic priests have become the scapegoat for perversions that the experts did much to promulgate. After all, Ginsburg and Foucault are still lionized by many.

    • Thanks: ivan
  3. The pope says NO to condoms and birth control…???

    • Replies: @paranoid goy
  4. dearieme says:

    At lunch one day, when I was a teenager, my mother said something to my father and suddenly the memory flooded back.

    We had been on holiday years before and I had palled up with a boy from another family staying at the same hotel. For some reason I had a bedroom to myself with a double bed. My new pal and I decided to form a “gang” and that he and I would sleep in that bed and plot our proposed misdeeds.

    But when I woke in the morning he wasn’t there; his father was. It was quickly explained. My pal had woken in the night, taken fright over a bad dream, and gone crying to his mother. His father had nobly let him into bed with his mother and replaced him in mine.

    I thought no more about it and we all went off to breakfast.

    What had my mother said all those years later? “Do you remember that nice Jewish family we met in Cornwall?” So my bet is that nothing untoward had happened and that the story of that night involved no funny business at all. Thank God I didn’t fall into the hands of “therapists”. Or Nazis. Innocent times, eh?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @anon
  5. Emotional urgency can lead to fake narratives … a fair amount of psychological abuse is complex, and not easy for a child to categorise, or to express in a form that gains recognition, or in a form that seems could help achieve goals of self-defence, preventing future harm, and providing some redress against perpetrators … hence the deep-seated urge of victims to make or adopt another narrative, as a matter of survival

    Dealing with abuse and emotional trauma victims, you see this at work … there is abuse there behind what is said, but it is somewhat under a cloud, as the victim has been impelled to channel their attempt at self-healing in ways that involve what an external observer would see as mis-statements of fact … behind it all is the sad reality that perhaps no one at all seems interested or likely to respond to the actual (hard to express) facts

    This ties in to the complex reality of the ‘induced hysteria’ phenomena Thompson notes above, which also involves factors such as the victim seeking to please the therapists or interrogators … a victim of perhaps lesser affronts, is invited & encouraged to channel their animus along the route provided, and it all snowballs

    There is a ‘will to power’, and part of the key in analysing it, is seeing how many people, even the worst psychopaths, feel in some senses a victim, and the impulse to power is felt as a justified self-defence against the brutal other, because no other recourse seems workable … deception is one method of power, and sometimes almost the only one a victim feels she or he has in life’s struggle

    Some people think this is part of the dynamic behind the genital mutilation of circumcision, now widespread amongst not only Jews, but also Muslims, and USA residents burdened by Jewish physicians and their ideology … French-Jewish holocaust sceptic Guy Dommergue (1924-2013), thought this was key in deranging and creating the Jewish psyche, given the centrality of genital mutilation in Jewish lore … You enter life with mutilated genitals, without any recourse of return to a natural condition, and your secret resentment makes for a life of knowing you are a victim, and you and your fellow tribal mutilated children, endlessly engage in the never-fully-satisfying remedy of seeking power over others, to assauge your eternal wounds

    • Replies: @another fred
    , @thotmonger
  6. There are several fundamental criticisms that could be raised as regards the validity of this study. I will point out two:

    1) Science does not have a good explanation for the connection between objectivity and subjectivity. The current paradigm is critically lacking in explanatory power when it comes to many psychological phenomena.

    2) Even using the current paradigm, it does not seem at all reasonable to believe that the probability of a person having a subjective experience of mistreatment will not increase with actual, objective mistreatment.

    In other words, the study seemingly labours under the crude and unrealistic separation of mind, emotion, and matter that is so usual in modern science (indeed, much of psychiatry and psychology can be said to do so).

    It is possible to forget, and to fantasize, of course – and to rise above circumstances, as Marcus Aurelius suggests – but to use the presented results as an argument that emotional reactions have no basis in objective reality (whatever that means) strikes me as absurd.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  7. Satanic Ritual Abuse is designed to create a split in the personality. It’s now called MPD, Multiple Personality Disorder. Multiple personalities have been around for a while, think Dr. Jeklyll and Mr. Hyde. Eventually, the CIA studied it and tried to turn it into a “technology.” It was researched as a part of MK-ULTRA, which was itself a continuation of Nazi experiments.

    Here is a recent discussion about the subject:

    • Replies: @ImaBotKnot
    , @Pheasant
  8. Interesting post, in which many details ring true.

    FYI —- In my (unfortunately very well informed) opinion, when you have known since before you could talk that there are evil people in the world, “generalized anxiety” is not something you give in to, not even a little. “Targeted desire for revenge”, maybe (one hopes not, as the “desire to live a good life with people who care about you” is so so much better), but “generalized anxiety” —- I don’t think that is all that common —- the people who would most likely suffer from that because of abuse in childhood are also, most likely, the same people who are too crazy too suffer from that.

    Sad. Sadder than I can say.

    • Replies: @Bert
  9. @Assistant Village Idiot

    I’ve got nothing to add and the Agree/Disagree/Thanks etc button didn’t seem to do justice to your comment. It has been very thought provoking. Thanks.

    • Agree: Not Raul
  10. Good people tend to come from good families, not rich families or handsome families, but good ones. All this babble seems to me an attempt to not acknowledge this. For if this is true we should spaying and castrating with some gusto.

  11. sarz says:

    What a waste of time and space this article is, and false advertising. Given the title I was expecting to see something about satanic rituals. Instead we have a bit of “social science”. People who have been satanically ritualled are no longer around except as stains here and there and random waste products. Think of Trump’s pal Jeffrey Epstein’s Moloch temple. Remenber Epstein ordering a cement truck for rushed delivery to his island a few weeks before his arrest was announced?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7361297/Jeffrey-Epstein-shipped-50K-cement-truck-Pedophile-Island-cover-evidence.html

    • Thanks: Hans
  12. anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    People can check the sex offender registry for all the convicted offenders in their zip code. A very large percent were convicted of offenses against children of varying ages. In some cases the ages are stunningly low. It can be assumed that the offenders may have had a history of prior commissions before getting caught. What happens to the victims later in life? What is their mental health like and what effect did being victimized by an adult predator have on them? Considering all the offenders known about there must be plenty of victims out there who have become adults by now.

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  13. If people would just realize that psychology is just opinion masquerading as knowledge, then folks could dismiss the bullshit ramblings of psychology experts.

    To draw circles and charts of invented traumas and the theories for why they happened adds no weight to the underlying truth that there is no empirical evidence for what psychology claims. It’s all interpretation by the high priests of the psychology religion.

    • Agree: St-Germain, Theophrastus
  14. I recall that after the success of the movie “Rosemary’s Baby” in 1968 and “The Exorcist” in 1972, Satan became a very popular entertainment topic. ABC’s Tuesday Night Movie of the Week had a devil-themed flick just about every week for years, and there were imitators by the other networks and movie producers as well. I think these are the sources of the “memories” some people believe they have about Satanic cults. The FBI did an extensive investigation at the time and found no credible evidence of the existence of such phenomena.

    Our brains are wired to vividly remember images our eyes have seen but not always to accurately recall the context in which we saw them. This was summed up in brilliant satire in an episode of “The Simpsons” where Homer reminisces about that time he was locked in the bank vault with Mister Mooney, then suddenly realizes he was remembering a scene from “The Lucy Show” on TV.

  15. Hillaire says:

    I suspect mr thompson is paranoid schizophrenic, possibly working through his own problems with his non distinct, generalized, contradictory quackery….

    all driven by meaningless and weighted data.

    although there is some light at the end of the tunnel for him, his final appeal to common sense….

  16. Hillaire says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    ‘Therapists’ on the whole, should without doubt be themselves imprisoned in a rubber room…
    Without doubt they are most certainly a bunch of slack jawed con-men preying on the unhappy…
    Mad scientists whose laboratory is the human soul..
    Repentance is not good enough for these charlatans, a good whipping is what is in order, thereby disincentivising it’s uptake by other social misfits..

    “A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.”
    vonnegut

    • Replies: @Ugetit
  17. Tim too says:

    There is a brief comment about this in James Pennebaker’s book ‘Secret Life of Pronouns’
    http://www.secretlifeofpronouns.com/author.php
    But I can’t remember it exactly right now, something along the lines that people are very resilient. The after effects are less severe than people imagine.

    https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/psychology/faculty/pennebak

    take the ‘I’ test;
    http://www.secretlifeofpronouns.com/exercise/itest/
    How well do you know the use of ‘I’?

    A different kind of IQ test. Most people don’t score very high.

  18. @Assistant Village Idiot

    The mind will not tolerate “No Answer,” and will pursue relentlessly until an answer is found.

    Some minds have learned that it is beneficial to be the bearer so to speak of an acknowledged symptom/disease/ diagnosis. This then is worn like a sign of honor from the Order of the Diagnosed. For some people, it has become a profession to be ill. They look at themselves as the perfect mix of a customer of public services and – referees/judges (at times even: commanders) of sorts too, by deciding who is a decent professional in the field and – who not. And they know that this status yields lots and lots of – material not least – benefits and, what is very precious to them: Rises their personal status in society to at times impressive heights.

    (That isn’t but one act in a rather curious play about the “Coddling of the” – Western, mostly – “Mind” (Haidt/Lukianoff) which would still have to be written – aha: – Molière wrote the prototype of this play: The Imaginary Invalid at the very end of his career – and his life almost 350 years ago. – The Imaginary Invalid is one of the rather underrated works of a genius that there are in world literature for reasons that have a lot to do with the things you and James Thompson write about here. I can say this though: Molière’s late masterpiece is very helpful for patients and for medical professionals (not least in psychiatry) because it enables both of them to understand their role (in life…) better.

    • Thanks: Thomas Faber
  19. Tim too says:

    Evolution would be severely compromised if psychological trauma were difficult to bounce back from.

    I would guess that evolution would favor humans that could bounce back and integrate their experience well. As opposed to humans that couldn’t bounce back well.

    Hand waving, I know. But a thought experiment presents it’s self.

    • Replies: @Bert
  20. @HA

    After all, Ginsburg and Foucault are still lionized by many.

    Not least by the french elite:

    https://www.ft.com/content/f7aa4ba0-1ff1-420f-b912-0e1bf433142e

    • Thanks: HA
  21. Thomasina says:

    When a child is abused by a stranger, the child can eventually process that this was a random event perpetrated by a sick person.

    But when a child is abused by his own parents, if the abuse is subtle and insidious, in most cases the child cannot afford to see their parents in a bad light. His very survival is at stake. He must see HIMSELF as inferior (not good enough, deserved it), not the parents.

    This is not always the case. There are some children who do SEE their abusive parents for what they are, but this is rare. The abuse is usually quite blatant in cases like this.

    Our society is sick.

  22. @Observator

    Movies do play a part in the collective unconscious or half-conscious. I thought at times that Donald Trump would know quite a bit just how to approach this collective treasures. Speaking softly and in parataxes with a raspy but tones down voice. Just adding and keeping on adding thoughts and the accompanying emotions and thus – reaching out to people.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  23. @HA

    And to some extent, it seems as if the lunacy torch was simply passed from one set of radicals to another.

    The lunacy torch will now be passed to another set of radicals. When a therapeutic technique is rolled out across a continent, many of its practitioners will be of poor quality. We can expect some perverse outcomes: some psychologists will believe that they are helping a patient if they can persuade him that the abuse he remembers never actually happened!

    We will never get it right.

    • Replies: @HA
  24. Chris Moore says: • Website

    At that time the concept of post-trauma stress was far less known and accepted, but as time went by it became applied to a very broad range of life events. In particular, one type of trauma, child sexual abuse, became far more frequently used as a diagnosis, usually on the basis of therapist-assisted recall of childhood events. This became a minefield, as more and more patients claimed their lives had been ruined by their parents.

    What’s the relevance of this article to ritual sexual abuse of their young by Jewry, the Judeofascist rackets, and the larger international Zionist community, including fallen Christians (ie pedophile Catholic priests, communist ex-Orthodox of Bolshevik and Soviet Russia, fallen Protestants of the Angloshpere, etc.)?

    Are you saying these Jew and Jew-stooge abusers are a figment of the victims’ imagination and the Zionist parents have been “framed” by oppressive Christian society? That seems to be a regurgitation of the old Jewish/Leninist-Marxist critique of Christendom, that Christian society is/was pathological.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism_and_religion

    Yet we now know it was Jewry that was pathological and had infiltrated and distorted Christendom for its own Zionist objectives, which is both a racial and cultural imperative.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that’s why Jewry and its stooges are so keen on starting wars, to traumatize their victims and make them malleable, thus prone to indoctrination by “Big Brother,” the stand-in and puppet of Jewish gurus.
    https://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/deadlyenemy.htm

    I’m not saying there wasn’t abuse of sexual trauma claims, but on the other hand Jewish sexual trauma of children (for example, circumcision) could have “primed” children to believe the worst about their parents, which then triggered accusations of sexual abuse as a means of lashing out both against their parents and the larger Jewish community that ritually watched it take place, and communally endorsed it.

    So they may or may not have been technically “sexually abused” by their community or cell but they were sexually traumatized. More and ongoing “sexual abuse” — both legally defined or cultural or both — no doubt took place, too.

    “It takes a village,” Hillary Clinton said. She didn’t add “to make a Zionist monster.” But that’s what she meant. And that’s what she did. Her daughter then married into the Zionist rackets that warmonger Hillary bowed to her entire career. She also bowed to Jewish pedophile Epstein, who organized sexual abuse rings for the Israeli government and the Zionist agenda of blackmail and extortion.
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ae_1470192838

    Who knows how deep it goes? Until we find out, all Zionists are suspect.

    • Troll: Mulga Mumblebrain
  25. Chinaman says:

    Worry about the UK virus…the vaccine that you were so proud of that your government secured for you won’t protect you.

    • Agree: Theophrastus
  26. @Thomasina

    But when a child is abused by his own parents, if the abuse is subtle and insidious, in most cases the child cannot afford to see their parents in a bad light. His very survival is at stake. He must see HIMSELF as inferior (not good enough, deserved it), not the parents.

    Yes, sadly this is true.

    Our society is sick.

    Perhaps the sickness is unavoidable, and is a feature of our biology, not our society. Whether we were placed here by a Creator, or by blind evolution, we were not made to be happy and well-adjusted: we were made to go forth and multiply.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  27. Whether this post is about Satanic rituals or not, IMHO, any form of child abuse is Satanic! Period!

    • Replies: @doitbetter
  28. @brabantian

    Circumcision was practiced by the Egyptians long before the Jews were a people. Ritual mutilation in various ways is (was) widespread among primitive people.

    https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2018/6/19/visceral-insulation

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @Gordo
  29. HA says:
    @James N. Kennett

    “We can expect some perverse outcomes: some psychologists will believe that they are helping a patient if they can persuade him that the abuse he remembers never actually happened!”

    I could definitely see that happening. The titular satanic chid-abuse panic — and the era of “recovered memories” — was all part of that pendulum swing by which Dworkin loons overtook the Ginsburg loons, and in that case, psychologists were able to persuade all sorts of people, not just impressionable children, to remember things that were physically impossible.

    So the outcome you predict wouldn’t be that farfetched. In fact, it would be a lot like the preceding era where even a castrated baby boy was urged to pretend that “really, it’s no big deal, you’re just a girl now — walk it off” and even children who were groomed and molested for years had to deal with experts telling everyone around them to basically ignore it. I realize that for some, that might have actually been a better approach than our current attempts to turn every victim into a brave, heroic I’m-gonna-tell-my-story celebrity, which probably leads to its own kind of scarring. Ideally, we could figure out which approach works best for which child and customize the therapy accordingly, but that may be asking for too much given the error bars (and the surrounding political battles of will as the hippies clash with feminist who then clash with trans people, etc., etc.).

    Even so, whatever efforts we make to return to Marcus Aurelius’ Stoic wisdom, they should never lead us to allow the “Ginsburgians” (for lack of a better term) anywhere near anyone’s kids again. We cannot rely on the powers that be to do the right thing, because if we ever do return to those days, they know they’ll be able to simply blame everything on Catholic priests and the Vatican again once the madness passes, kind of the way they did it this time.

  30. Anon[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme

    If you don’t recall anything untoward, then nothing happened.

    But how very weird of the father, right? His kid (your pal) must have had a bed, right? Why didn’t the father go sleep on his son’s bed? Perhaps the son got a small uncomfortable couch.. how very opportunistic to profit from another’s comfortable room. At the very least.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  31. @Thomasina

    Well, yes and no. Mostly yes though – you get it.

    You seem to be passionate, but we both know that the bottom ten percent of parents are really really bad parents.

    I know a lot about this world, and I have to say, the bottom 70 percent of parents are bad parents, in the best countries. In countries where nobody expects parents to be good parents, we are looking at 90 percent or so of parents being just the simple selfish self-satisfied creeps who are the reason for so much suffering in this world. And in countries where nobody expects parents not to be flat out creeps, the number is higher than 90 percent.

    Live a good life and thank God you do not know what I know about how awful most people are before they discover that they have little love in their hearts, and recognize that only God can save them from the cold heartless world they have built for themselves.

    • Replies: @Bert
    , @Thomasina
  32. @sarz

    I didn’t find it to be a waste of time but I agree that the title is pointlessly misleading. Although I’m happy that professionals did this study, I don’t see how it can lead to the conclusion that all SRA claims are fictitious. I don’t think it is widespread but I’m pretty sure it’s a thing.

    I wonder to what degree the suggestibilty of each subject of the study factors into the severity of mental disturbance?

    • Replies: @Stealth
  33. anon[712] • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme

    Had he buggered you, I think you would’ve known. It’s kind of sore I understand.

  34. Alfred says:

    The most useful trait that I have learnt over the years is the ability to forget. With a little effort, one can almost completely erase unpleasant real events from one’s memory. A most useful skill IMHO.

    “Father, Forgive Them, For They Know Not What They Do”

    • Replies: @Mustapha Mond
  35. Schuetze says:

    “At a big conference of therapists I was astounded to hear a lecture discussing satanic rituals as if they were both real and frequent, and even more astounded to find audience members agreeing, without supportive evidence.”

    There are dozens of, in my opinion credible, interviews of people who have been abused. The author loses all credibility with this statement.

    The author also completely fails to mention the Talmud and Judaism as eternal fountains of both child abuse and psychopathy. Jew’s, as a group, far and away the planets leading “experts” on psychiatry and psychotherapy, have been covering up their depravity with this fake veneer of “science” and “concern for humanity” for centuries. This ignorance, willful or not, by the author concerning the source of most of the planets child abuse and satanic blood sacrifice renders this entire article null and void.

    [MORE]

    http://www.talmudblasphemy.com/talmud-children.htm

    “MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN (7) HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH (8) A LITTLE GIRL, (9) OR WHEN A SMALL BOY (10) HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD (11) — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ] “

    “MISHNAH. A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE, AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] LESS THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD — THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]. AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM THE CLAIM OF [NON-]VIRGINITY. “

    “2. I.e., Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred.
    3. Samuel makes three the minimum. At nine years a male attains sexual matureness.”

    “So that if he was nine years and a day or more, Beth Hillel agree that she is invalidated from the priesthood; whilst if he was less that eight, Beth Shammai agree that she is not”

    “MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; … IF ONE WAS YOUNGER THAN THIS AGE INTERCOURSE WITH HER IS LIKE PUTTING A FINGER IN THE EYE.”

  36. Schuetze says:

    Milo Yiannopoulos was cancelled by Breitbard after he admitted that homosexuals are created by being molested by queers at a young age.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/simon-schuster-cancels-milo-yiannopoulos-book-after-underage

    “In a January 2016 interview, the Breitbart editor said sexual relationships between teenagers and adults could be consensual and beneficial. Critics — including CNN’s Jake Tapper — said the statements amounted to defending pedophilia and child abuse. In one clip, Yiannopoulous said he was not talking about sex with children, but rather someone at least 13 who was “sexually mature” and had gone through puberty. He also joked that the priest who sexually abused him did him a favor by making him better at giving head.

    Of course, Yiannopoulos, a jew, blames his homosexuality on a catholic priest.

    “As a Jew married to a black man, Yiannopoulos says he is amused by being called a homophobe, anti-Semite, and racist.”

  37. Dumbo says:
    @HA

    was because that was, in effect, what the experts were claiming was in the best interest of every one.

    What “experts” claim is rarely the truth. Be it in “Covid”, be it in “sexual abuse”.

    Accusations of sexual abuse by priests is a big scam by the way. Where there’s compensation money to be found, there will be people claiming they were abused.

    Not that it doesn’t exist. But it happens much more in Hollywood, and no one says anything.

    • Agree: stevennonemaker88
    • Replies: @HA
  38. I once experienced false memories similar to what is written about in this article. Interesting to learn about it from an scientific perspective and to get an idea of what it was that had occurred. Thanks for the insight.

  39. @si1ver1ock

    The Life of Svali – an Ex-Illuminati Mind Control
    Programmer

    https://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/transcript-svalis-interview-with-greg-szymanski/

    Asking the question How many people in the US Senate and US Senior Executive Service can break their programming? Also keep in mind Fauci went to Jesuit Schools??? Tree of Life programming? See the Clade X exercise

  40. Pheasant says:
    @si1ver1ock

    Yup angered.

    Nasty Jew shills on this thread defending what is now proven to be satanic ritual abuse of children.

  41. Pheasant says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    ‘This is true of political paranoias as well, which is why the identification of who the Illuminati, the International Bankers, the Lizardmen change over the years. They know it’s someone, some conspiracy that is ruining everything for the decent folks. Those who are actually oppressed can usually identify who is making it happen pretty clearly’

    Jews.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  42. Ugetit says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    Those who are actually oppressed can usually identify who is making it happen pretty clearly.

    Apparently something similar happens when there’re are mere delusions or fantasies of oppression. The holycost and antee-Shemitizm are two obvious examples.

  43. Ugetit says:
    @Hillaire

    Agree, and I’d add that Freud was clearly a fraud.

    • Replies: @Temporary Insanity
  44. Carlos22 says:

    What about the psychological abuse aimed at kids by the education system and media.

    Messing with kids brains teaching 5 year olds there’s 70 forms of gender and over sexualizing them via our sick media, minority weirdos and gov organizations

    What’s the future recovery rate on that I wonder?

  45. @Alfred

    “The most useful trait that I have learnt over the years is the ability to forget. With a little effort, one can almost completely erase unpleasant real events from one’s memory. A most useful skill IMHO.”

    Much better than joining the French Foreign Legion……

  46. Bert says:
    @very old statistician

    My dear old mom did her best to pass on “generalized anxiety” like a family heirloom. My reaction was, as a teenager, to catch and handle venomous snakes, drink and drive, hitchhike alone across large stretches of North America. Desensitization therapy self-applied instinctually.

    • Replies: @very old statistician
  47. Gordo says:
    @another fred

    Ritual mutilation in various ways is (was) widespread among primitive people.

    There is no justification for it and any decent government would ban it.

    • Agree: Rich
  48. Bert says:
    @Tim too

    There seems to be a natural experiment already available for your hypothesis. 99% of retail day traders keep at it until they have blown up their accounts. Many then refund the account for another try. That shows plenty of resiliency, if not common sense.

  49. An interesting article.

    When I was litigating decades ago, I had the pleasure to work with an attorney who had previously represented one of the McMartin Preschool workers that was a dragged into that terrible mess. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial) The effect on that innocent person’s life was devastating, as one can well imagine. Years later (when I worked with him), the attorney was still furious over the handling of the ‘investigation’, which he called the most disgusting witch hunt he had ever witnessed. Looking back, I recall he had tears welling up in his eyes as he recounted in detail how the worker’s life was utterly destroyed by the process, despite ultimately being fully exonerated. I myself admit to having been quite moved by his account of what happened. It was truly shocking on all levels.

    It is well to remember such events when considering the allegations of widespread ‘satanic child abuse’ in various circles, and the mind-boggling consequences such allegations can have on the accused, not to mention the incredible gullibility of (too) many members of the general public…..

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  50. Bert says:
    @very old statistician

    It is unfortunate that you never experienced the community spirit and love that radiates from the typical Southern U.S. rural Protestant church.

    • Agree: Wade Hampton
  51. @Ugetit

    The name Freud (I don’t know its meaning) almost sounds like “fraud” in German… and it turns out that he was one.

    • Agree: Ugetit
    • Replies: @Wade Hampton
  52. Getaclue says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    Hmmm — so tell this famous ex-Bankster all about how its all not real?:

    https://newspunch.com/banker-sacrifice-children-illuminati/

    This infiltrated in Satanist was the most powerful Cardinal — “Modernist/Liberal” acclaimed by Bill Clinton et al — in the USA for years. Conducting Black Masses and raping children — must just be “Lizardmen” at work in your “Professional” World view and opinion?:

    https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/bernardin-homosexual-predator-satanist

    How about the fact that it is pretty clear at this point the Satanists are “running” things so covering it all up as a “fad” is not to difficult for them? Especially with such as you in the trenches for them? Here’s the scion of the Trillionaire family pushing the New World Order — with a Satanic Artist Bill Gates put in an ad on the last Good Friday — in front of a Lizardman ya think? Why do this or is it a “hallucination”?:
    http://stateofthenation.co/?p=11727

    https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/microsoft-releases-and-deletes-an-ad-with-elite-occultist-marina-abramovic/

    Gates here admits he is a “Minor Wizard” — that is a Rank of Satanist just below “High Wizard” that is the highest level — unfortunately most don’t know this but if you read the interview on CNBC you can see he is clearly describing himself as in the world of “Spells”– this is “Lizardman” too?: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/07/bill-gates-says-jobs-was-a-wizard-in-getting-staff-to-keep-apple-alive.html

    Actual ex-Satanist “High Wizard” describes what you state doesn’t exist — also confirming Gates — states he worked with Gates and that Gates is a Satanist. All this is of course “paranoia” Doc?: https://padreperegrino.org/2020/10/kingfinalaud/

    Gates’ wife in on the Lizardman? Just more “paranoia”?: https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/05/11/one-of-the-things-satanists-are-required-to-do-at-a-certain-point-of-advancement-is-to-start-openly-manifesting-their-satanism/

    • Thanks: Jefferson Temple
    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  53. dearieme says:
    @Anon

    Or perhaps the space in my bed was created by my brother agreeing to sleep in my new pal’s bed. I can imagine such reshuffling of bed spaces seeming exciting to small boys – all part of the excitement of a holiday.

  54. @Observator

    “The FBI did an extensive investigation … ”

    I do not know if SRA is a real systemic phenomenon; but to accord the FBI with any legitimacy is a dead-end. The FBI began its life as a political police for the right-wing and is now a political police for the leftists who dominate the federal government. They collect evidence and then disappear it.

    • Replies: @Getaclue
  55. Mike Tre says:

    If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.

    Marcus Aurelius, in one sentence, has defeated feminism, racism, and the entire metoo movement.

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  56. Dumbo says:

    If the “Satanic Panic” of the 80s prove anything, is that people are prone to mass hysteria, a phenomenon already well documented by Charles Mackay…

    From that perspective, the “COVID panic” with a disease that hardly kills is quite similar, except that it was engineered by the Powers That Be..

    …but perhaps the “Satanic Panic” of the 80s was also engineered, to obscure the REAL cases of abuse.

    I mean, it’s not as if pedophilia among the rich and powerful is just a figment of imagination:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cathedral

    https://en-volve.com/2020/07/04/breaking-massive-pedophile-ring-with-over-30-thousand-suspects-uncovered-by-german-authorities/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/world/europe/germany-child-pornography.html

    • Replies: @Schuetze
  57. Mike Tre says:
    @HA

    “During the Catholic priest-child-abuse scandals, ”

    During the Catholic homosexual priest-child abuse scandals…

    “So. one major reason why so many church and scout and school bureaucrats decided to simply hush things up…”

    Is because an honest investigation into those abuses would require an honest assessment of the true predatory nature of homosexual men, (one of those natures being to seek employment in fields rich with potential victims) and the pubescent and post pubescent teenage boys they target. The powers that be certainly weren’t going to allow that to happen.

    • Disagree: Mulga Mumblebrain
    • Replies: @HA
  58. Getaclue says:
    @SunBakedSuburb

    You hit the nail on the head — also how many at the top of the FBI are actually part of it? Why ask this question? The Finders Sex Cult — caught with children — and the investigation was finally destroyed by the CIA/FBI — Why? Could be these Satanists are actually “running” things? Infiltrated in at every level and the Mainslime Media and denying what is obviously happening? (see my comment and links above). This happened — the reports are right here — tells you much of what is “up”:

    https://redpilledreality.com/the-finders-the-story-of-the-cias-pedophile-ring/

  59. Getaclue says:
    @Observator

    I hate to bust your bubble there but the FBI not finding “credible evidence” is a laughable standard given the actual evidence proves that both they and the CIA (at the highest levels) are in fact involved in all of this Pedo networking – there is a lot of evidence of this but just one — The Finders Child Sex Cult case shows their “work” in covering up quite dramatically (not the only one of course):

    https://redpilledreality.com/the-finders-the-story-of-the-cias-pedophile-ring/

    How about maybe the Richest people in the world are networked Satanists/Psychopaths along with their buddies in the CIA/FBI?:

    http://stateofthenation.co/?p=11727

    I have researched this ex-Bankster and find him very credible (he isn’t the only one by the way….)– so maybe your worldview isn’t too accurate? Maybe those putting out those movies are in on this too– since they are financed by these people?
    Maybe stop believing what the Mainslime Media they control tells you? Just some thoughts….Tell this guy that none of this exists:

    https://newspunch.com/banker-sacrifice-children-illuminati/

    Read all of this site and get back with me on your “thoughts”?:

    https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/microsoft-releases-and-deletes-an-ad-with-elite-occultist-marina-abramovic/

    Gates admitting he is a “Minor Wizard” = Rank of Satanist: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/07/bill-gates-says-jobs-was-a-wizard-in-getting-staff-to-keep-apple-alive.html

    ex-Satanist High Wizard who states he knew and worked with Gates: https://padreperegrino.org/2020/10/kingfinalaud/

    All in the Billionaire Family?: https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/05/11/one-of-the-things-satanists-are-required-to-do-at-a-certain-point-of-advancement-is-to-start-openly-manifesting-their-satanism/

  60. @Getaclue

    I find it almost impossible to discern the difference between real witnesses to this stuff and fame seekers. But it seems to me to be a real issue. People have no problem believing that a catholic priest would engage in pedophilia. Yet, if told that someone who is an adherent of Satan does the same, and worse, they call it a “fad.” Why?

    Someone who is always on the fringes of the topic of Satan is Aleister Crowley. CBS even made a show about him, with Jack Parsons and L Ron Hubbard a couple of years ago. The guy who achieved minor celebrity status after being acquitted of the West Memphis Three murders is a Crowley disciple.

    In the Book of the Law, Mr. Crowley advises that the blood of a child is the best and most powerful for use in Magick rituals. Now why wouldn’t some of these apparent Thelemites in various elite circles know this, and act based on it?

    (I don’t claim to fully understand all of this stuff but there has to be something to it)

    • Agree: Getaclue
    • Replies: @Getaclue
  61. Carlos22 says:

    The main problem with “satanism” is few people know what it is.

    If you ask most will say it’s devil worship and it will bring up a mental image of some doppey teenager into heavymetal trying to shock his parents by saying he worships the devil.

    Satanism officially as a religion as given from church of satan, is in a nutshell is atheism with a psychopathic trait. Real satanist don’t believe in god or the devil. They don’t believe in good or evil just self interest. Look it up.

    When you understand this you realize that many sociopathic people are walking about who are satanists who don’t even know it.

    Many political leaders come to mind.

    • Replies: @Getaclue
  62. Anon[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    “The mind will not tolerate “No Answer,” and will pursue relentlessly until an answer is found.”

    I’ve often wondered about this.

    Perhaps it’s simply lacking (or the perception of lacking) the innate intelligence, physicality, and/or skills to compete in the brutal natural world, and its thinly veiled counterpart, civilization, that creates an internal environment where everyday is an existential crisis.

    How the word ‘compete’ is subjectively understood and measured by the individual may be the lynch pin.

    That, I’m guessing, comes from the culture.

    On the flip side, well adjusted people that are able to compete successfully in a given environment, regardless of real or imagined past traumas, often invent a fictional narrative as a reason for their success every bit as divorced from reality as their less successfully adapted counterparts.

    The conclusion, it seems, is that everybody’s fucked in the head.

  63. HA says:
    @Dumbo

    “What “experts” claim is rarely the truth. Be it in ‘Covid’, be it in ‘sexual abuse’.”

    In either case, the answer is not to cave in to anti-science conspiracy-theory loons, be it Satanic-panickers who think it’s the Illuminati or the Vatican who is ritually raping our kids (as opposed to mom’s creepy new boyfriend, who came courtesy of the widely popular divorce culture, and who is by far the likelier suspect) or else the anti-vaxx COVID-truthers who think China/Putin/Netanyahu/Iran/Italy/Spain somehow all teamed up together to fake a virus just so that we could all be injected with Bill Gates’ nanobots or else evict Donald Trump (leaving only little Sweden to stand bravely by his side). I.e. sometimes the common man’s counter-narrative that is supposed to save us from the craziness of the intellectuals makes even less sense.

    If you don’t like the models or the science, by all means, improve on them. The experts are indeed often clueless, but more so when it comes to social science, and somewhat less so when it comes to viruses and genetics and epidemiology and things that we can actually measure and sequence and find antibodies for — you know, like scientist are supposed to do. When the psychologists are able to genetically sequence the trauma inflicted by cis-het intersectional patriarchy and white supremacy, or whatever it is that they’re panicking about this week, I’ll probably pay more attention to them, too.

    • Replies: @Getaclue
  64. HA says:
    @Mike Tre

    “Is because an honest investigation into those abuses would require an honest assessment of the true predatory nature of homosexual men…”

    The homosexual angle is worth noting, though I think the regime-shift affected both types of victims. The Foucault/Ginsburg chickenhawker libertines (regardless of whether they were lusting after pre-pubescents or post-pubexcents) who used pretty euphemisms like “initiation” and “sexual awakening” to whitewash their rapey urges, were eventually overtaken by the McKinnon/Dworkin MadameDefarges who believed more or less that EVERY act of intercourse was rape (except maybe possibly the lesbian kind). I wouldn’t trust either them to look after kids or teenagers. The former group will tell them, hey, it’s time for a bath or a shower or a sleep-over, while the latter will start trying to convince them that daddy raped them and until they stop repressing the memory they are perpetuating the cycle. I realize that is a broad-brush caricature, but it gets the point across.

    Also, as I noted, the experts stopped believing that pedophiles could be rehabilitated sort of about the time that they said it is monstrous to try and convert homosexuals, and I do find that a suspicious coincidence. So I do think there may well be something to what you say.

    [MORE]

    That being said, I don’t particularly care that gay men are statistically more likely to be predators for the same reason that I also don’t care that men are statistically much more likely to be rapists than women. I agree that we could better manage this problem if we could be honest about both those disparities to an equal extent, and it’s true that these days we’re only able to look at the male/female disparity with anything close to objectivity. But even so, I’m still not going to give a pass to Roman Polanski or Jeffrey Epstein (or mom’s creepy new boyfriend, for that matter) just because they all happen to be straight.

  65. Dumbo says:

    somehow all teamed up together to fake a virus just so that we could all be injected with Bill Gates’ nanobots or else evict Donald Trump (leaving only little Sweden to stand bravely by his side).

    Straw man. Making a caricature of the actual arguments against the Covid farce, or the vaccination campaign, doesn’t help you.

    I suggest you look at the actual arguments against this whole Covid hysteria – about what the PCR tests really measure, about the real causes of mortality among the elderly, about all the lies that were peddled, and about all the problems of the vaccine.

    Personally, I don’t think the virus is a great deal, that the lockdown and the masks were far more damaging than the “pandemic” itself, and I think the vaccine, while it could be mostly harmless (we won’t know for a while…), is really less a “cure of Covid” and more of a pilot test for the new mRNA technology that goes much beyond prevention of diseases.

    • Agree: Jefferson Temple
  66. Schuetze says:
    @Dumbo

    “If the “Satanic Panic” of the 80s prove anything, is that people are prone to mass hysteria, a phenomenon already well documented by Charles Mackay”

    I was a teenager growing up in the 70’s during the “satanic panic”. There was McMartin pre-school, Aquino at the SF Presidio, Charlie Manson, the Zodiac killer all going down simultaneously in California. To brush them all off as “mass hysteria” is absurd. Sure, in hind sight we can see that it was blown up by the media, but to claim that media exaggeration is proof of there being “no there there” is absurd.

    During this same period we had Saville on his pedo rampage and boys town in Nebraska. These things were not merely “hysteria” but were later proven cases of satanic abuse and even necrophilia. They came out DESPITE the media, not because of the media. McMartins preschool is still highly disputed, just like comet pizza. The Epstein scandal and the media cover up parallels this period as well. The media produces fake scandals, then debunks them, then tries to use this as “proof” that some other scandal was also “fake”. Years later people like Thompson, the author of this article, will use these faked events as proof that the entire era was “mass hysteria”. It is a kind of inverse holocaust.

    • Replies: @HA
  67. Stealth says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    What evidence is there that Satanic ritual abuse is “a thing” at all?

  68. Mike Tre says:
    @HA

    “while the latter will start trying to convince them that daddy raped them and until they stop repressing the memory they are perpetuating the cycle. ”

    Look up the case of Leo Stein and the Circle S Ranch. This is exactly the type of thing that went on there.

    “But even so, I’m still not going to give a pass to Roman Polanski or Jeffrey Epstein (or mom’s creepy new boyfriend, for that matter) just because they all happen to be straight. ”

    Nobody is asking you to. Understanding and investigating the extent of predatory homosexual behavior does not require one to excuse heterosexual rapists and pimps.

    • Replies: @HA
  69. Easy Pete says:

    Very good article. I’ve noticed academic criminologists in Australia like Mike Salter of UNSW strongly insist on SRA. There was even a SRA panic recently in the Blue Mountains straight out of the 80s. When the case was thrown out of court there was no mention from this academic about this news, despite how striking an example it was of the sheer stupidity involved in these prosecutions.

    I believe these academics, therapists, and detectives cause immense iatrogenic harm to children involved sexually with adults, typically cousins or uncles. They are trauma maximalists, despite all primates interacting sexually with juveniles, including human hunter-gatherer tribes – to no harm.

    • Replies: @Alden
  70. res says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    Thought provoking comment (along with an interesting paper and analysis provided by Dr. Thompson).

    What struck me in that graphic was panel c showing that for sexual abuse those with both objective and subjective experiences (O + S) had less severe outcomes than those who where only subjective. The error bars overlap slightly (so probably not statistically significant), but still…

    My reaction was to wonder if part of the effect was simply that more disturbed people are more likely to make up accusations. If so, I think this effect exists in parallel with your point (I would call that a coping mechanism) and the primary point made by Dr. Thompson about the recall being the more debilitating aspect of the experience. With my point being the least important of the three.

  71. In the 1980’s, hundreds of parents, children, healthcare professionals, law enforcement, and lawyers conspired to accuse dozens of day cares around the country, especially military day cares, of ritual abuse, all because of Christian paranoia. The Satanic Panic is quite the conspiracy theory!

  72. @Stealth

    MK-ULTRA, The Greenbaum Speech, the Finders Cult, the Presidio, McMartin, Oak Hill, and countless victims, just for starters.

    • Agree: Getaclue
    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
  73. @Thomas Faber

    Isn’t the point that all experience is “inside one’s head”. Whether it is real or imagined, it all take place inside one’s head. People think that what they see is “really there”, but in fact what they are sensing, is a virtual reality scene inside their brain.

    People have an inbuilt ability to distinguish/remember what was “real” and what was “imagined”, but it is all very similarly stored (or so I imagine) in one’s memory. No doubt, some people are more adept at distinguishing the “memories” of events which actually happened from those that were imagined and some are not so good at it. With psychiatrists messing with one’s thinking, no doubt it gets even harder to distinguish the one sort of memory from the other! Perhaps, when hypnosis is involved, even impossible.

  74. @James N. Kennett

    Our society is sick.

    Perhaps the sickness is unavoidable, and is a feature of our biology, not our society.

    What a pessimistic remark! Here’s something to cheer you up:

    “Man’s life is in vain,
    For ‘t’is subject to pain,
    ‘T’is a hodge-podge of trouble and sorrow.
    ‘T’is a hodge-podge of trouble and sorrow and care
    And care and sorrow again!

    Or

    “Don’t hope,
    Take dope,
    Give up!”

  75. The religion of the Elites is not “Satanism”. It is Sabbatean Frankism propounded by Sabbatai Zevi using the inverse of Qabalah called Qliphoth. Before that, there was plenty of human sacrifice but it had never been concentrated into a movement. The ancient world performed a lot of human sacrifice, especially in the Meditarranean and it went underground after Christianity subdued a lot of pagan elements.

    The Christian idea of Satan is based on Cernunnos, Pan and some other minor deities, usually of the fertility flavor.

    Some claim that the religion of the elites is Luciferianism, which is also false. They may try to disguise it as such, but their religion began in 17th century Turkey.

  76. @Stealth

    There are examples provided by other commenters on this string. If you look at those and find them lacking, I probably can’t do any better. Here is why I think it is more likely than not:

    Christians believe in Christ and they take communion. Some of them probably believe in literal trans-substantiation. Many of them believe in salvation by baptism.

    Satanists believe in what? Some of them are atheists. Some are believers in a Promethean Lucifer, who brings forbidden enlightenment to the masses. But wouldn’t some of them believe in the power of Satan to give them what they want, if only they ask the correct way? A black mass or SRA would be something they might try because that is their religion. They want to please Satan and if abusing or murdering someone is part of the ritual needed to do that, so be it.

    Believers in religions do things that their religion tells them to do, whether there is any rational objective basis for it or not. It’s not the proof you were asking for but I find it to be a convincing argument.

  77. Not Raul says:
    @Assistant Village Idiot

    I had long ago also noticed the was some lack of correlation between severity of abuse and severity of symptoms, but had not quite put together the solution that you note here: the subjective impression is the driving force.

    Yet could this not be the cart instead of the horse? Those whose lives have fallen apart and who feel terrible need some explanation for why this is.

    I was thinking the same thing.

    Are people disturbed because of mistaken impressions, or do they have mistaken impressions because they are disturbed?

    I tend to side with the psychiatric problems arising first, and the mistaken impressions being a direct or indirect consequence.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    , @HA
  78. @Mustapha Mond

    In the UK the Shieldfield nursery allegations caused two innocent people to go into hiding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Campbell#Working_and_political_life

    “In 1998 Campbell reported on a Newcastle City Council report into allegations of child abuse at the Shieldfield Nursery in the city in 1993. She claimed the council inquiry was “stringent” and had found “persuasive evidence of sadistic and sexual abuse of up to 350 children”. The alleged perpetrators were workers at the nursery, Dawn Reed and Christopher Lillie, who had already been cleared of multiple charges in a criminal trial in 1994. They subsequently successfully sued the Council, the “Independent Review Team” who produced the report, and the local Evening Chronicle newspaper for libel.[8] Awarding Reed and Lillie the maximum possible damages of £200,000 each, the judge in the case made a “very rare” finding of “malice” on the part of the Independent Review Team, in that “they included in their report a number of fundamental claims which they must have known to be untrue and which cannot be explained on the basis of incompetence or mere carelessness.” One of the four people on the Independent Review Team was Campbell’s close working partner Judith Jones.[9] Campbell also wrote in favour of now discredited allegations raised in the Cleveland Child sex abuse Scandal as well as similar discredited allegations in Nottingham.”

    https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/2018/06/18/conflict-of-interest-judith-dawson-beatrix-campbell-and-broxtowe/

    The discredited allegations in Nottingham were reported here.

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dlheb/jetrepor2a.htm

    We have been told that we must suspend disbelief and that children should be believed by the first statement that needs to be made is that the diaries cannot be taken literally but have to be interpreted. If we do not accept this we would have to accept the following as literal true statements:-

    “the family kill a big sheep with their fingernails and take it to the hospital to get better and bring it back” (CH 21.1.88)

    “My mum flies on a broomstick” (JB 22.1.88)

    “They throw lots of babies in the bins. I was murdered when I was a baby and shoved in the bin” (LW 26.2.88)

    “They kill all of us at the parties. I’m Superman at the parties and I kill the witches” (CH 25.4.88)

    The children all lived in typical semi-detached council houses on council estates. As we all know the walls of these houses are paper thin, the rooms are very small with the average living room being 14′ by 12′ and they have open gardens. In our experience it is virtually impossible on council estates to keep anything secret that can be seen or heard (unfortunately sexual abuse is often neither) and information and particularly anything of a spicy or bizarre nature passes around very quickly.

    The family were under constant surveillance from the authorities and from an interview with a neighbour it is clear that they attracted attention to themselves as these families often do. The neighbour states that she had “seen young children naked in the garden eating their own excrement and running around the garden naked or [with] very little on even on freezing cold days”. She adds that “any talk of witchcraft or any type of Satanic practices regarding the family surprises me a great deal. I have never head or witnessed anything like that on this estate before”. The neighbours do maintain that the family used to frequently return from the pub and continued ‘parties’ with a lot of shouting and swearing.

    Despite this the social workers have accepted that the family were having witch parties at which sheep were being slaughtered in the front room or the back garden and the front garden and were subsequently left in the garages in wheelie bins, that abortions were committed in the front room, that more than eight witches danced around singing in the front room, that later one of the children had her stomach cut open on a table in the front room and that [Mary] witnessed seven children being killed along with acts of cannibalism. We do not consider that the belief that this could be kept secret matches basic commonsense or reality. Outside of the babies and the children, sheep are large, noisy, difficult animals and when one was slaughtered by an Indian on a council estate in Leicester it hit the national newspaper headlines the following day. In our view another explanation has to be sought.

    • Replies: @Mustapha Mond
  79. @RoatanBill

    I agree more than disagree, but psychology is just the basic idea that people’s real behaviors, with hard consequences, are to some extent the result of various events and influences that shape their personality.

    If you understand what motivates someone, you can motivate them; if you understand what they’ve been through, you can predict with some accuracy how they’ll respond in the future.

    That’s the real basis of psychology, and it predates Freud by hundreds of centuries. Like all such fields of study, it deserves better minds and more common sense than it’s been given. Most of what is called “psychology” is indeed bullshit, but that’s just because a century of academic abuse has deservedly given it a bad name among bullshit spotters.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  80. HA says:
    @Mike Tre

    “Understanding and investigating the extent of predatory homosexual behavior does not require one to excuse heterosexual rapists and pimps.”

    Focusing on homosexual predatory behavior, as opposed to male predatory behavior, as opposed to white vs black behavior, is ultimately a diversion. It’s bikeshedding. It might even be an effort by one set of pervs to avoid incarceration by feeding another set of pervs to the justice system first. (I suspect some of those who keep bringing up Eyes-Wide-Shut references and all the Illuminati symbolism on Epstein’s island any time this topic is discussed might well be trying to sensationalize the topic to such an extent that no DA will touch it, given the massive stink of shame surrounding the McMartin and Amirault prosecutions, and thereby give actual genuine pedophilia and teen-rape — whose perpetrators are generally not glamorous Hollywood types or British royals but are instead everyday chumps — a pass. Which makes me suspect it’s the ones who keep bringing up those bizarro sensationalistic connections who really warrant some closer inspection.)

    Anyway, if it is homosexual depravity that you really want to focus on, and to “investigate the full extent” of it, have at it, I guess. Whatever you think is most noteworthy and for whatever reason that’s the aspect of the problem that interests you most, yeah, go for it. It may be more relevant in the particular case of Catholic priests, but my point is that this goes way beyond Catholic priests and any attempt to shoehorn this into a Catholic issue is yet another diversion.

    I myself don’t care if it’s chickenhawking gays (clerical or otherwise), or Pakistani immigrants, or movie moguls, or high-flying financier con-men who are grooming teenagers and children — I want them all going down in no particular order — but that’s just me.

  81. @Sollipsist

    I’m of the opinion that if you can’t prove it, you shouldn’t be able to proclaim it as some kind of truth or knowledge. We all have hunches about things, but we don’t get PhD’s for intuition. No one should be able to hang out a shingle to the gullible public unless they can absolutely prove what they say via empirical evidence. That would get rid of the bulk of the medical profession leaving only a small remnant of surgeons and some clinicians that can diagnose long known diseases. The current Covid nonsense could never happen if the frauds in medicine had to prove their assertions.

    Psychology, psychiatry, sociology, political science, economics, cosmology, religion, etc, the entire catalog of the humanities and social sciences are what’s wrong with the world today. We have people claiming knowledge that’s just not there and the weak of mind listen to them because they have a gov’t title or some bogus degree. The dolts in the society drag the rest of us with them because we swim in the same pool of humanity.

    The humanities, social sciences, including medicine and even some quasi STEM fields should be limited to a bachelors degree to allow their respective fields to mature, if possible. At some future date when they can actually make their case for their assertions with verifiable evidence, then they can graduate to being able to hand out masters in their fields and in a few more decades or centuries, doctorates.

    The world is awash in frauds that are ruining everything they touch.

  82. Getaclue says:
    @Carlos22

    This Ex-Satanist/High Wizard (the highest rank in Satanism) has no problem describing “what it is”. https://padreperegrino.org/2020/10/kingfinalaud/

    “Real Satanist don’t believe in God or the Devil” — then they aren’t Satanists — the fact they lie and say this in order to be more appealing to “normals” doesn’t make it true. Satanist steal consecrated Hosts from the Catholic Church if they can for their Rituals — they don’t do this as to any other Religion — seems they “know” something about God being present? They also infiltrate the Catholic Church — one infiltrated in as a “Priest” recently was caught in the Altar area desecrating it with 2 “Witches, someone saw him thru the window: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8824877/Two-dominatrices-arrested-sex-Catholic-priest-church-altar-insist-did-wrong.html

    This one was the most powerful Catholic Priest (Cardinal) in the USA for many years and did lots of damage: https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/bernardin-homosexual-predator-satanist

    I could go on but for many it wouldn’t matter the evidence, they will not believe it as they have been programed otherwise regardless….I will end with this man, head of the NWO and the richest family in the world (Trillionaires), he’s here with an “artist” Satanist — the Good Friday Ad Spokesperson for Microsoft Bill Gates picked (Gates admitted he was a Satanist in an interview to CNBC in 2019 that he is a “Minor High Wizard” = Satanist Rank and in the interview above the ex-Satanist High Wizard Zach King states he knew and worked with Gates– “Minor Wizard” wants to “vaccinate” you….:https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/07/bill-gates-says-jobs-was-a-wizard-in-getting-staff-to-keep-apple-alive.html )

    Microsoft “Artist” and Richest Man in the World/NWO Head — Why do this?
    http://stateofthenation.co/?p=11727

    Why do this? https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/microsoft-releases-and-deletes-an-ad-with-elite-occultist-marina-abramovic/

    Why do this? https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/05/11/one-of-the-things-satanists-are-required-to-do-at-a-certain-point-of-advancement-is-to-start-openly-manifesting-their-satanism/

    Just “Goodfellas”?: https://newspunch.com/banker-sacrifice-children-illuminati/

  83. Getaclue says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    I read the “Elites” basically went all in on Crowley — he’s really big in their circles and he just built on what was already there….The fact is what is going on is obvious but most people, regardless of the evidence, are not going to go there — they just won’t…– so these creeps get to do what they do and network together at every level as we are now seeing as they use this CVirus to obtain their anti-human objectives. This whole Vigilant Citizen site is quite good on all the symbolism they use in “Entertainment” — no sane, reasonable person can look at what is on this site and not at least agree that yes…something weird is going on (the “one eye” thing itself is so well documented as to be undeniable) — extremely weird: https://vigilantcitizen.com/

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  84. Getaclue says:
    @HA

    Here’s some “anti-science conspiracy-theory” lunacy for you:

    https://redpilledreality.com/the-finders-the-story-of-the-cias-pedophile-ring/

    Yes, nothing to see in any of this of course because the CIA put out the term “Conspiracy Theory” thus uncomfortable realities can easily be ignored and mocked away, just as we see you doing….Do tell those children referenced in the Police Reports all about it — maybe you can dig them up to do so, wherever those “Elite” CIA Pedos, who don’t exist in your world, might have buried them when they were done with them….

    • Replies: @HA
  85. @Getaclue

    I agree. I’ve been a regular visitor to Vigilant Citizen’s website for a couple of years. The sum total of the information there should be enough to make most people see it.

    The transgender and transhuman garbage is directly related to all of their occulted schemes.

  86. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    “McMartins preschool is still highly disputed…”

    Not by anyone with a shred of sense. Chuck Norris pedo-torture dungeons? Seriously? I’ll stick with the McMartin trial Wikipedia rather than use its source articles from the NYTimes:

    Johnson, who made the initial allegations, made bizarre and impossible statements about Raymond Buckey, including that he could fly. Though the prosecution asserted Johnson’s mental illness was caused by the events of the trial, Johnson had admitted to them that she was mentally ill beforehand. Evidence of Johnson’s mental illness was withheld from the defense for three years…. One of the original prosecutors, Glenn Stevens, left the case in protest…

    Wayne Satz, at the time a reporter for…KABC, reported on the case and the children’s allegations. He presented an unchallenged view of the children’s and parents’ claims. Satz later entered into a romantic relationship with Kee MacFarlane, the social worker at the Children’s Institute International, who was interviewing the children. Another instance of media conflict of interest occurred when David Rosenzweig, the editor at the Los Angeles Times overseeing the coverage, became engaged to marry Lael Rubin, the prosecutor.

    Do you know of anyone who could have gotten a fair trial under that kind of media collusion? And before anyone tries the old “it’s Wikipedia so I don’t believe it” routine, feel free to dig through the actual articles on which the entry is based. Everything I tried to find to refute what was in there amounted to nothing convincing so I’m sticking with it this time around. I realize there are true believers who still think that absolutely no substantive physical evidence (and no, rubbish pits are not tunnels) and, may I remind you again, Chuck Noris pedo-torture-dungeons, add up to a convincing case, but as I said, I’m limiting my sample set to people with a shred of common sense. If there are links that prove otherwise, I suspect they would have been included in your comment.

    That being said, I don’t know anyone who denies that pedophilia rings exist, as Operation Cathedral and numerous other crackdowns make clear. There are also murderers who invoke Satanic symbolism (e.g. Richard Ramirez and others). But the perpetrators rounded up in Operation Cathedral (note several countries were kicked off the task force because they couldn’t provide enough assurances that their police officers wouldn’t tip off the suspects prior to arrest) were mostly regular work-a-day schmucks as opposed to members of the British royals or Hollywood directors, so the cartoonish fake pedo-rings with Kubrick-style cinematography and Satanic rituals (not to mention Chuck Norris!) wind up getting most of the limelight.

    • Replies: @Schuetze
  87. @RoatanBill

    Thank you for eloquently expressing my identical thoughts.

    • Thanks: RoatanBill
  88. HA says:
    @Getaclue

    “Do tell those children referenced in the Police Reports all about it — maybe you can dig them up to do so, wherever those “Elite” CIA Pedos, who don’t exist in your world, might have buried them when they were done with them…”

    Ah yes, the pizzagate rumor mill. With regard to the Finders, we’re talking 20 adults and 7 children. Moreover, the CIA ″admitted to owning the Finders organization as a front for a domestic computer training operation but that it had ’gone bad‴ . That still doesn’t exactly count as “elite” CIA, though I have no doubt the CIA upon finding out some nutjob they hired for computer training went on to become a Satanist commune leader, would have tried to whitewash any connection.

    On the other hand in the case of an actual real-life pedo ring, Operation Cathedral, only 17 of the 1,263 individuals appearing in the images have been identified. A description of the Brits nabbed in the operation includes a number of taxi drivers, and computer salesmen — i.e. regular everyday schmucks apart from some familiarity with computer encryption (which probably is pretty common in pedophile circles, I would imagine). In other words, no notable elitism, though given that it was a ring (and that some countries had to be bounced out of the operation given that they couldn’t guarantee they wouldn’t tip off the victims) they probably had some connections to the police and members of the military and such (not to mention upper class types like posh school teachers and pediatricians).

    Regardless, six kids vs. 1263 kids. You do the math and try to keep it in perspective. You can talk about “elite” this and that all you want, and claim there’s any number of bodies out there that no one has found yet, you can repost hieroglyphics from Epstein’s island all you want, the fact remains that the vast majority of these people — even those in this cult — were average schmucks, as opposed to masters of the universe. If it makes you feel better to think that for every victim of one of the registered sex offenders you can dig up in your neighborhood with a simple internet search there are hordes of others being trafficked by the CIA or the Rothschilds or whatever, that’s on you. As far I’m concerned, actual reality is plenty disturbing enough. As such, I don’t need to obsess about your cartoon conspiracy-theory child abuse and can instead focus on the kind that we have actual evidence for.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  89. @Bert

    Well done, but I hope you were nice to the snakes (I have a soft spot in my heart for scary animals who are really not all that dangerous).

    • Replies: @very old statistician
  90. @YetAnotherAnon

    Absolutely horrifying stuff. It is truly mind-boggling. Thankfully, in the Shieldfield Nursery case the court realized the malice behind the false allegations and awarded the maximum amount. Sadly, that amount was statutorily limited. There should have been a clause/exception that a judge may increase the amount in particularly egregious cases, such as what was cited.

    Thanks for sharing.

    MM

  91. @very old statistician

    well, not the drinking and driving part – that is literally INSANELY selfish. you shouldn’t have done it.

  92. Thomasina says:
    @very old statistician

    “Live a good life…”

    You too! Wishing you all the best.

    • Replies: @very old statistician
  93. @brabantian

    Strange how the genital mutilation of male infants by Jewish elders seems effective in strengthening their tribal loyalty. I might have guessed the epigenetics of traumatizing babies would have blown up in their faces after just a few generations. Not so. Evidently, when mixed with 12 parts misanthropy and 151 proof superiority complex, the tip clipping may even offer some immunity against the dreaded circumcision of the heart.

  94. Schuetze says:
    @HA

    My momma told me to never get into a pissing match with a pedo apologist quoting wikipedia.

  95. @Not Raul

    I tend to side with the psychiatric problems arising first, and the mistaken impressions being a direct or indirect consequence.

    Mental disorder tends to search (long) for a – attractive = persuasive – explanation. These explanations are a way to cope with the disorder (think of neurotic defense mechanisms, but also of conspiracy theories, scientific – reasons etc.).

    • Agree: Not Raul
  96. @HA

    On the other hand there was child abuse by MPs like Cyril Smith and Greville Janner which only emerged after their deaths.

    At the time of the Jeremy Thorpe trial

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorpe_affair

    there was a popular joke in British school playgrounds

    “Why did Norman Scott bite the pillow?”

    “Because he thought Cyril Smith was next”

    • Replies: @HA
  97. @sarz

    How telling that you refer to Epstein as “Trump’s pal”, when Epstein was far closer to and involved with Bill Clinton and other big-time Leftists. The actual flight records of the Lolita Express indicate that Bill Clinton made 27 trips with Epstein to Pedophile Island. (According to the records, even Hillary made seven trips.)

    Trump made exactly ZERO trips to Pedo Island. And ever though Trump and Epstein ran in some of the same uber-wealthy NYC social circles, after allegations of Epstein’s sexual criminality first surfaced in tbe 1990’s, Trump cut off all ties with Epstein. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, increased his involvement with Epstein. And yet instead of referring to Epstein as ‘Clinton’s pal’, you describe him as “Trump’s pal”.

    • Thanks: Alden
    • Replies: @Truth
  98. Truth says:
    @George True

    They’re all pals. They all know each other, hang out together, and “play” together.

    If D.T had a bucked of water and saw you on fire on one side of the street and Barry-O on fire on the other, you would be BBQ’d beef.

    Please grow up.

  99. HA says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    “On the other hand there was child abuse by MPs like Cyril Smith and Greville Janner which only emerged after their deaths.”

    I’m not denying, given Epstein and Prince Andrew and Marvin Minsky and Roman Polanski and Jimmy Savile and Oscar Wilde, that rich and powerful people are engaged in the abuse of children and teens. They certainly are. And I hope that one Corey Feldman will feel safe enough to spill every grisly detail of what he’s seen and endured. But remember, those busted in Operation Cathedral are not masters of the universe. The Rotherham rapists drove their taxicabs back and forth without ever coming near Windsor Palace and Downing Street. It’s everyday schmucks like that who wind up doing most of the abuse simply because, as limited as their resources are, they’re so much more numerous.

    Ergo, consider the possibility that people who are still trying to turn our attention — without providing anything much in the way of links or evidence — to discredited conspiracy theories (e.g. the Chuck Norris pedo-torture-tunnels) are purposely trying to limit the possibility that any DA will want to actually crack down on child abuse, simply because of the risk of being associated with nutjobs. And who does that diversionary tactic wind up helping?

  100. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    “My momma told me to never…”

    That seems like good advice, all things considered. I’m amazed she even lets you use the keyboard.

  101. HA says:
    @Not Raul

    “I tend to side with the psychiatric problems arising first, and the mistaken impressions being a direct or indirect consequence.”

    That may well be the ultimate conclusion of this study, but it’s important to note that some have said that serial abusers of children/teens seek out those with psychological issues, so there’s a chicken-egg conundrum here. After all, damaged children are often in need of a “parental” figure, or a mentor, so that the predator’s heavy-handed presence in the child’s life has an easy and innocent explanation. Secondly, if the victim decides to tell someone what is happening, the fact that he or she is psychologically damaged means any accusation is going to lack credibility. “He’s just acting out”, or “She made a pass at me and I of course rejected her, and now she’s concocting this story out of spite”, or “It’s the drug abuse that makes him do that”, “She’s been a chronic liar since childhood — check her clinical history”.

    The vulnerable are, by definition, easier to victimize, and that makes for a very convenient arrangement, from the predator’s perspective. Somehow, that predilection for victims who are easier to gaslight needs to be factored out, though I’m not sure how.

  102. @Thomasina

    Thanks, that was very a very nice thing to say!

    I (with some help) flipped the second derivative (the variable of the simple differential equation being ‘cumulative gratitude for having been born’ (x axis, time since birth, y axis, the variable – cumulative gratitude)) from negative to positive somewhere around 1983 …. I was born in 1960, so basically 1961 was the first year I was conscious that I was one of those sad people who early in life are presented, whether we want it or not – I didn’t, of course – with the problem of evil –

    but it took a lot of thought, lots of difficult contemplation of the Bible, which – while an interesting pursuit, was not what I would have been doing if I could have just been out and about, working exciting jobs and spending weekends at the Jersey Shore —– and looking back, I (that is the younger version of me) would much have preferred not to know what I know, but here and there, now and then, I have been, in latter years, helpful to others who just need to know, yes, you can work your way through the problem of living in a world full of people who are , well, selfish and lacking confidence and not very nice to be around.

  103. Child abuse, sexual and physical, is something I know a little about. The physical came in the form of severe beatings with severe verbal abuse, but the sexual abuse was a one time thing, but it caused a psychic break. I had a clear memory of the event, but didn’t recognize the psychic break for what it was for 57 years. My fix was 40 years of: heroin, then methadone, then heroin and methadone. I found the help I needed accidentally through the courts when I was ordered to the VA’s recovery program. U was 63. Once there it was recommended I attend the PTSD group for combat vets. There the other issue came out. It had never occurred to me that anything was wrong with me a shot couldn’t fix. It’s been 17 years since I cleaned up. Like the article mentioned; I was always asking myself why I was what I was. I thought I was just crazy. There’s some comfort in knowing why, but the effects never truly go away. I feel like my life was taken from me in my 8th year, and after that, I didn’t have a chance. They say get over it, but you can’t. Learning to live with the pain is the best I can do.

  104. Truth says:

    The G(.)O(.)A(.)T(.)

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  105. @Observator

    You have an opinion. Very nice.

    The FBI did not vet anyone.
    The children at the Presidio case in California had multiple std’s. There was more physical evidence, including tunnels, that provided adequate corroboration
    Principals who were accused like Colonel Aquino had lots of connections and the Army continues to have extensive and organized Satanic groups. This has been well documented, see The Finders, and has been covered up with media, owned by Jews-Satanists, leading the charge.
    WTF Up.

    • Replies: @HA
    , @Alden
  106. @HA

    The science on this goes back to the 1960’s. A guy at U of Toronto studied pedophilia and concluded it was deeply entrenched and incurable.He had live subjects responding to stimuli and self reporting. I can’t say it was conclusive as I read this decades ago
    At the time I read it it struck me that the researcher made a very good case.

    • Replies: @HA
  107. @Stealth

    Law enforcement starting seeing so many cases that police organizations had to produce training videos. Investigators were finding physical objects at crime scenes that they didn’t know how to make sense of. The public was not informed of course.

    If a person searches for evidence in an objective manner they will find evidence. Not all of it is recent either. Some evidence is centuries old. The oldest is from recent archaeology in North Africa that proved the phoenicians performed sacrifices of children. This is no longer controversial though Benjamin Franklin’s case is less clear cut.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  108. HA says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    “The science on this goes back to the 1960’s. A guy at U of Toronto studied pedophilia and concluded it was deeply entrenched and incurable.”

    Again, the article I linked to touting how rehabilitation (perhaps it was labelled “new and improved” so as to sidestep this guy’s “outdated” research from way back in the 60’s) was published on the front page of the Boston Globe in 1992. In other words, very same Boston Globe that rakes in prizes for exposing corrupt clerical bureaucrats who tried to deal with pedophiles by sending them to rehab instead of prison doesn’t seem all that eager to mention (from what I can gather) that just a short while earlier, they were publicizing psychologists who were saying that rehab was exactly the right thing to do.

    OK, you’re saying there was some guy in Toronto who disagreed with that as early as 1960, and his view eventually became the consensus. But tomorrow, maybe it’s the psychologist behind that Boston Globe report who will be hailed as the far-sighted hero and the U of Toronto researcher will be denounced as a medieval sadist. Without that 20/20 hindsight, there’s always going to be confusion about which set of experts anyone is supposed to be listening to at any given time. And simply ignoring them is even more likely to get you into hot water.

  109. HA says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    “this has been well documented, see The Finders, and has been covered up with media, owned by Jews-Satanists, leading the charge.”

    As noted in my earlier comment on the McMartin/Buckey debacle, the prosecutor was Lael Rubin. She was sleeping with David Rosenzweig, the editor of the LA Times who was hyping these charges, as was Wayne Satz the TV reporter who was parroting the claims of the chief interviewer eliciting crazy talk from the children (e.g. Chuck Norris pedo-tortur-dungeon-tunnels). You still want to come here pretending the “Jewish owned media” was covering this up given who was heading up the lynch mob?

    So much for lame conspiracy theories that can’t even get their own story straight. And no, no one is claiming that there aren’t plenty of Satanists in the military and other thrill-seeking professions, if that’s the straw man you’re building. There certainly are. Some of them are into molesting kids, and some rape pit bulls, they swap videos of all that with each other. There are certainly priests who rape children, too. But the sad fact is that most of the child/teen rape that happens — and there is indeed an sickeningly awful lot of it — is perpetrated without the need for crazy Satanic or other religious rituals under the aegis of the CIA or the Vatican or the Jews of the church of Howard “Anton” Levey and it is perpetrated by everyday chumps who are able to hide in plain sight. Not because the Satanic high-priest commanded them, but simply because that is what they want to do.

    If you actually care anything about stopping child molestation, don’t let allow the loony cartoon versions of it (that only ends up with mobs trying to string up people like McMartin, Buckey, and Amirault despite zero credible evidence that they did anything much that warrants an apology) discredit those who are actually trying to do something about it. Find some other loony conspiracy theory to salivate over.

  110. HA says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    “there is however a fair bit of evidence suggesting that in the anything-goes 1970s, quite a few people who subsequently gained political influence were not just accepting of, but campaigning for, paedophilia.”

    I have no disagreement with that. Paul Shanley, for example, “attended a conference on sexuality where the founders of NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association, conceived the idea of such an organization”. And I think it goes far back beyond 1970. I would bet good money that whoever it was that convinced German authorities that placing foster children with pedophiles was a good idea (because they’re supposedly so devoted and attentive to children) was probably a pedophile. I mean, that sure seems like the kind of thing a pedophile would say. Same goes for whoever it was that came up with the notion that molestation of a child causes no harm if everyone just tries to hush it up. I mean, come on. And that was the consensus view for decades.

    Whatever possible angle you give these people with regard to minimizing the trauma or claiming it’s primarily in their heads or stems from pre-existing issues, they will use it to try and normalize and minimize and excuse what they do, because sex/porn with children/teens is the only way they can sexually gratify themselves (or so they’ve led themselves to believe). If that means only targeting psychotic children, because they can then use the psychosis to discredit any allegations, that’s what they’ll do. But going to the other extreme of everywhere and always assuming the worst case isn’t science, it’s just witch-hunting. I don’t know how to resolve that.

  111. HA says:
    @HA

    “Satanic or other religious rituals under the aegis of the CIA or the Vatican or the Jews OR the church of Howard ‘Anton’ Levey”

    Wanted to correct that typo.

  112. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dieter Kief

    Movies do play a part in the collective unconscious or half-conscious.

    Movies and TV probably play the dominant part in the collective unconscious or half-conscious.

  113. Alden says:
    @Easy Pete

    No harm? If you were a molested nephew instead of a molesting uncle you’d feel differently.

  114. central says:

    Currently we have multiple wireless technologies that work 24/7 to shape and desensitize people’s behavior (as well as directed energy weapons). Children are obviously not immune from such intentionally designed digital poison. With each gradual technological “progression” the broader population gets worse, physically and mentally. It is very visible in today’s western societies if you are on the outside looking in.

  115. Alden says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    STDs are irrefutable clear and present evidence that the children and teens were sexually abused. There’s only one way to be infected with an STD and that’s sexual contact.

  116. Alden says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    You’re right. In the late 60s early 7os there was a lot of children’s rights nonsense that included the right of children to be molested. Hildabeast Clinton write some lengthy articles about the rights of children. It was a popular cause among the grant grafting non profit sector. It was much more gay that heterosexual molestation they crusaded for

    That ended abruptly around 1976 when the feninazis discovered they could get federal funds and well paid careers crusading against child and teen molestation.

    The STD rate for black girls and teens is astronomically high. And it’s always a family member that does it. Which may be why blacks have such high rates of mental illness. Uncle cousin big brother gives 11 year old girl an STD. When she’s 13 she passes it on to a 14 year old boy. Some black women claim that all black women were molested as children. Black boys, middle class black boys are often astounded when they find White boys don’t routinely have sex with sisters.

    STDs are proof of molestation.

  117. HA says:
    @Commentator Mike

    “Alex Constantine has researched all this in some detail:”

    Far less detail than John Earl. His account can be found here

    The dark truth about the “Dark Tunnels of McMartin

    It contains actual pictures and detailed data and dating. For some reason, Constantine doesn’t bother with any of that.

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
  118. HA says:
    @Commentator Mike

    For what it’s worth, and this may explain some of what I mentioned above, inasmuch as Constantine believes the McMartin accusations were true, he also believes that OJ Simpson is innocent.

    From his alexconstantinereport blog:

    No other American writer has fought so tirelessly to expose such matters as CIA domestic terrorism, assassinations, the mind control epidemic, the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center, the innocence of O.J. Simpson, and the ultimate triumph of post-WWII Nazism.

    His primary topics of interest concern the dangers of the religious right, the triumph of fascism in the US, and the danger of the CIA’s brain-magnet-torture (he claims to be a victim of this: “For five years I have been the victim of a formal torture program at the hands of the CIA. The torture is electromagnetic and difficult to trace …a gruelling daily regimen of torture rendered from a remote source”).

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  119. Truth says:
    @Alden

    Black boys, middle class black boys are often astounded when they find White boys don’t routinely have sex with sisters.

    Yes Aldey, and there’s good reason for that…

    https://www.thefairdevil.com/

  120. @HA

    Yes his work represents a pastiche of ideas but he has researched extensively various topics giving his own interpretation and slant on things, like Operation Paperclip. He’s a left wing conspiracy theorist as opposed to most others in the field who seem to lean more to the right. It is unlikely we’ll find any other person we’ll fully agree with on every issue so it’s up to us to make the best we can of the research they do. I tend to eschew the various political labels and prefer to look at the evidence presented and conclusions drawn.

    Interestingly he takes a completely different view of rock music from David McGowan who claims that the CIA created the rock music scene in his Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon. Alex, on the other hands, views rock as a popular revolutionary movement that the CIA suppressed by murdering the most prominent rock start as he explores in his book The Covert War Against Rock:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39124.The_Covert_War_Against_Rock

    Maybe there’s some truth in both: they build you up to bring you down.

    And he’s not the only one who claims that he was the victim of psychotronic weapons, nutty as it seems.

    • Replies: @HA
  121. @Mike Tre

    It was easy for the Emperor of Rome to suck it up, princess.

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
  122. HA says:
    @Commentator Mike

    “Yes his work represents a pastiche of ideas…”

    That’s a pretty big euphemism, and I do not think it is the most accurate of fair way to describe someone who holds the views I cited. It’s one thing to be eclectic and even eccentric, but at some point there has to be some kind of line. If you want to know why more media outlets and DA’s aren’t calling up people like Alex Constantine and re-opening the McMartin case, I gave you a very good reason for that: it is because when anyone else finds out the kind of people they are relying on to build a case, they will be out of a job. And that has nothing to do with powerful Satanists pulling strings. If there WERE Satanists dong that, then the most likely explanation for someone like Alex Constantine is that he was hired by the them as controlled opp, for the purpose of discrediting anyone who would try and uncover them. So if you actually believe in Satanic ritual abuse, then why are you listening to someone who is most likely working for the Satanists?

    And again, if you have any specific bit of evidence that he has put forth on those tunnels that wasn’t refuted by the even more detailed analysis by John Earl, then please point it out.

    Otherwise, I am resolved with the inescapable conclusion that you find this “pastiche of ideas” from some OJ-is-innocent, CIA-is-torturing-me-with-magnets, fascism-is-alive-and-victorious-in-the-USA blogger more worthy of consideration for no other reason than the fact that it confirms to your pre-existing biases. Again, that simply isn’t credible.

  123. dearieme says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    the phoenicians performed sacrifices of children.

    You’d infer from the Old Testament that child sacrifice was used in the Levant.

  124. @HA

    Those abusive priest in reality do deserve some blame, not, of course, nearly all of it.

    It is up to us normies to keep the loons at bay — to me it seems we are not doing a very good job.

    • Replies: @HA
  125. @Schuetze

    Funny how people cannot wrap their mind around the fact that refuting specific allegetions is different from being an apologist for the alleged crime.

    • Replies: @Schuetze
  126. @dearieme

    No.
    The archaeological and lab work was completed in the last decade. It is clear that Phoenicians performed sacrifices of children. They murdered them for religious purposes.
    I didn’t bring up the Old Testament. I don’t consider it an accurate historical record. It has been proven false repeatedly.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  127. @HA

    Foam at the mouth much?
    You didn’t even read what I wrote correctly. You are babbling like a fanatic who is unable to discuss something rationally.

    • Replies: @HA
  128. @Alden

    What you describe is precisely what I had described to me by a black social worker. She was from the Carribean community and worked in that community. She claimed sexual abuse was rampant as was physical violence.
    I wonder how long it will be before this gets turned into whitey’s fault?

  129. HA says:
    @but an humble craftsman

    “Those abusive priest in reality do deserve some blame…”

    Yes, and those who cover up for them. Priests actually rape children at somewhat lower rates than other males with comparable proximity to children (teachers, coaches, scoutmasters, etc.) but to those who actually believe in Catholicism, a child being raped by a priest is arguably even worse than one who is raped by a close relative. That being the case, the fact that clerical rape occurs at somewhat lower rates is not nearly good enough, and the only recourse I see is to make sure a cleric and a child are never alone for any reason because the downside risk is too large. That’s unfortunate, but given the facts, and the reality that the bureaucrats are unable to stop lying and covering up, I don’t know what else is possible.

    I think part of the reason so many Vatican bureaucrats care so little is because many of them are older men from a generation wherein rape was simply something that needed to be hushed up or else where experts assured them that there is no inherent long-lasting damage if everyone just shuts up and “socially constructs” a satisfying pain-free ending, and that all this “hysteria” over priest abuse is solely the fault of puritanical, Calvinistic Americans who have been caught up in radical feminist witch-hunts and repressed-memory scams. So as the old generation dies off, the cavalier attitudes will diminish somewhat, but there will still be corrupt venal bureaucrats whose inclination is to hide problems and then come up with sleazy rationalizations about avoiding scandal. Maybe the lawsuits will finally bring some of them to their senses, but they can only do so much.

    That being said, given the mob mentality of those who still believe the McMartin/Amirault allegations to this day, it’s hard to see how a priest can ever get a fair trial when faced with that kind of Black Legend hysteria and willingness to believe the worst (even if it means believing in things that are physically impossible), so I’m not surprised bishops chose to work things out internally rather than than subject their priests to the tender mercies of a jury composed of people who are statistically likely to harbor the conspiracy theories I’ve seen evidenced on this thread. That’s why refusing to give in to these nutjob conspiracies is so important. After all, the stuff we have actual evidence for is disturbing enough, and we don’t need to concoct imaginary Satanic rituals. A child getting raped is already inherently satanic, regardless of whether someone drew a pentagram somewhere.

  130. HA says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    “You are babbling like a fanatic who is unable to discuss something rationally.”

    So says the guy muttering about “well-documented” Jew-Satanist conspiracies without bothering to provide so much as a single link . Thanks so much for your so-called rational input.

  131. dearieme says:
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    I agree that the OT is not history. But its authors – whoever they may have been and whenever it was that they wrote – could plausibly have known about the less agreeable customs of their countrymen, ancestors, and neighbours.

    In other words, that Moses existed – no. That Levantines committed child sacrifice – all too possible.

  132. @Truth

    Call for an Uprising does make interesting connections but then he gets silly. This inclination to dismiss as a man the wife of anybody he doesn’t like is annoying. Did he not grow up in America? Does he not know that some chicks don’t have voluptuous figures?

    Kudos for referencing Manly Palmer Hall though. That cat was amazing.

    • Replies: @Truth
  133. dearieme says:

    Did anyone accuse Epstein – who presumably didn’t kill himself – of satanic abuse, as opposed to the ordinary kind?

  134. @goldgettin

    I revisit to see if anyone has said anything useful yet. I choose this completely irrelevant comment as vehicle:
    Why does nobody raise the issue of multi-generational abuse? In effect, I see the article as yet another shot at ‘normalising’ paedophilia.
    The War On…Drugs gave us the CIA controlled coke/heroin business. The War On…Poverty gave us millions ofhungry homeless. The War On…Terror gave us one FBI/CIA false flag attack on civilians after another.
    This War On…Paedophilia is well represented by this so-called “research”. The fact is, if you are abused, chances increase tremendously you will partake or abet in the abuse of others. That is, unfortunately, part of the human experience.
    Then it ends with the common wisdom that “suffering is all in your own head”. Standard psyops technique; get the mark to agree to one premise, then pretend he agreed to the rest of your bull.
    People who have sex with children are not balanced, decent people, and all possible effort should be applied to keep them away from children. That includes the “academics” finding reasons for us to accept their perversions. Full Stop.

  135. Schuetze says:
    @but an humble craftsman

    “McMartins preschool is still highly disputed…”

    Not by anyone with a shred of sense. Chuck Norris pedo-torture dungeons? Seriously?

    You write:

    refuting specific allegetions is different from being an apologist

    He didn’t refute any allegations, he just made an ad-hominem saying anyone denying the McMartin preschool scandal narrative doesn’t have a “shred of sense”. He then referred to Wikipedia for supporting evidence. There was no refutation. I would say that rises to “appologist”, or close to it.

    • Replies: @HA
  136. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    “He didn’t refute any allegations, he just made an ad-hominem saying anyone denying the McMartin preschool scandal narrative doesn’t have a “shred of sense”. He then referred to Wikipedia for supporting evidence.”

    What specific allegations am I supposed to refute? As I clearly explained, having discussed the McMartin case previously with other conspiracy nuts, every effort I made to counteract what was in the Wikipedia page came up empty. However, if you’re willing to actually supply some links that dismantle what is there, I’d be happy to have a look. At this point, I’m tired of people who claim that Wikipedia isn’t trustworthy but then offer nothing but their own link-free assertions as counter-evidence. That’s not how it works.

    The only one who took me up on that offer to give me the opposing view gave me links to long rambling essays containing nothing that wasn’t refuted with more detail and evidence by the John Earl report I linked to. Therefore, I’m not surprised that the ‘magnets-are-attacking-my-brain’ ramblings of the man who believes the McMartins were Satanists didn’t make it into Wikipedia while John Earl did.

    Again, feel free to provide actual links and documentation or specifics. But if those links are from yet another OJ-is-innocent wacko, or else comes a jpeg taken from “fb.com” like that Finders expose (because Zuckerberg.com is so much more credible than wikipedia?), I will not simply ignore that the way that the previous commenters expected us to.

    Got that? So go ask your momma for advice on how to provide links and documentation, because she apparently never bothered to fill you in on that.

    • Replies: @Schuetze
    , @Schuetze
  137. Schuetze says:
    @HA

    The FBI Declassifies Files on The Finders and McMartin Pre-school Child Trafficking Cases

    “But lo and behold, we have confirmation of tunnels and rooms by the FBI itself!

    Page 48-49 states tunnels were found at McMartin Preschool, as well as pentagrams and bones. It’s all part of a descriptive report shown below. Then, at the bottom, comes the standard WTF hidden hand shutting the investigation down.

    Page 172: Ritual goat sacrifice with two children.”

    So the question is, does willful ignorance constitute pedo-apology?

  138. Schuetze says:
    @HA

    And another:

    FBI Data Dump Confirms McMartin Tunnels?

    [MORE]

    “A group of parents teamed up with FBI agent Ted Gunderson to go searching for the tunnels. Gunderson was the Senior Special Agent in Charge of the FBI Los Angeles Division at the time. He hired UCLA PhD archeologist Gary E Stickel for the job. They got permission from the new owners of the building and began digging. Page 49 of the FBI release is from Gunderson and an archeologist he hired. It describes preliminary findings on the tunnels, including:

    Multiple tunnels
    A tree root cut in such a way that it was determined to have happened about 5 years prior
    A Disney bag with “copyright 1982” written on it.
    A plate with a pentagram on it, hand drawn by an adult
    No doorknobs on Classroom 3, only a deadbolt lock. This was one of the classrooms above a tunnel
    Fire alarm switches that didn’t connect to a fire station, but was used as an alert system within the school
    More than 2000 artifacts under the school floor, including over 100 animal bones

    Page 48 shows a map of the school with two tunnel entrances.

    Without enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the McMartin trial lead to no convictions. Many of the jurors were convinced that children were abused at the school, but couldn’t prove it.

    • Replies: @HA
  139. Truth says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    The picture attached below features two siblings; brother and sister. Look at the shoulders, belly buttons, arm length, hands, collarbones, foot size, Adonis belt, etc…
    i
    I leave it to your judgement as to discern which is bro and which is sis…

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  140. @Truth

    That’s two women. The fashion industry has been obsessed with skinny women for decades. You start with a naturally slim frame then get the woman to go on low calorie diets and fitness regimes that leave looking next to emaciated. Bundchen actually looks pretty healthy in this photo.

    When I think of the men I’ve seen who are actually transvestites posing as women, it’s really obvious that they are not women. Think of Biden’s new pick at HHS or that Vietnam vet helo pilot, later pilot for some CA news station, who decided he was more comfortable as a lady. Sorry I can’t remember their names but they’re not fooling anyone.

    • Replies: @Truth
  141. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    The Stickel/Gunderson report you’re referring to is actually part of the Wikipedia page you can’t seem to bring yourself to actually read. If you look at their footnotes, #54 takes you to the very same FBI report that these articles are using as evidence.

    And that’s what the John Earl report I referred to earlier specifically addresses. Are you even paying attention? Next time, try reading something before attempting to debunk it. You’ll have an easier time keeping up. I’m starting to understand why your momma cautions you against internet debates with anybody able to provide so much as a Wikipedia article since you can’t even manage to take that in. Next time, listen to her.

    [MORE]

    For your convenience, I will repeat the entire Wikipedia entry discussing this very same FBI report in full:

    In 1990, parents who believed their children had been abused at the preschool hired archeologist E. Gary Stickel to investigate the site. In May 1990, Stickel claimed he found evidence of tunnels, consistent with the children’s accounts, under the McMartin Preschool using ground-penetrating radar.[53]

    FBI documents regarding the alleged Finders cult include an undated preliminary report discussing these supposed underground tunnels found at the MacMartin preschool. In the report, hand dug tunnels were described stretching under Classrooms 1, 3 and 4, and under a bathroom off the office. It was also reported that “Children described entrance and exiting tunnel in triplex yard exactly where tunnel and exit were found.”, possibly substantiating the children’s testimonies. More than 2000 artifacts, including over 100 animal bones, were also reportedly found under the school floor. Redacted versions of these documents were released by the FBI in 2019.[54]

    Others have disagreed with Stickel’s conclusions. John Earl wrote in 1995 that the concrete slab floor was undisturbed except for a small patch where the sewer line was tapped into. Once the slab was removed, there was no sign of any materials to line or hold up any tunnels, and the concrete floor would have made it impossible for the defendants to fill in any tunnels once the abuse investigation began. The article concluded that disturbed soil under the slab was from the sewer line and construction fill buried under the slab before it was poured. Further, Earl noted that some fill from beneath the concrete slab was dated to the year 1940.[17]

    W. Joseph Wyatt’s 2002 report concluded that the so-called tunnels under the preschool were more plausibly explained as a series of adjacent rubbish pits used by the owners of the site before the preschool’s construction in 1966. Materials found during the excavation included bottles predominantly dated to the 1930s and 40s, as well as tin can fragments, plywood, inner tubes, professionally-butchered livestock bones, four small containers of trash, as well as the former owner’s old mail box.

    Only three small items found near the edge of the concrete slab were dated after 1966. Wyatt suggested one of these – a fragment of a plastic snack bag – was most likely dragged into the pit by rats or other scavengers, just as Stickel himself had suggested likely happened for other debris that didn’t fit his tunnel theory. The remaining items, per Wyatt, had likely been left by a plumber digging from adjacent to the building to avoid damaging the concrete pad. Moreover, Wyatt speculated that Stickel’s conclusions were colored by his collaboration with the parents of the McMartin children.[55]

    Again, with regard to the Finders, anyone who has ever read the comments section of so-called “rationalist” websites and the freaky alt-lifestyle types those “communities” attract would not be surprised that some have a kink for child porn and Satanism. Yes, they’re creepy and disturbed. However, the number of those they victimize do not begin to match the regular child-hustlers we see in Operation Cathedral and Rotherham and most everywhere else, simply because the latter are so much more numerous. An earlier comment mentioned Cohn-Bendit and Lord Ahmed in support of the claim that powerful people are involved in child trafficking (which no one denies). However, when Cohn-Bendit was getting his kink on with 5-year-olds, he was just a regular French schoolteacher with a thing for anarchy whereas Lord Ahmed was just another Pakistani immigrant. Those hiding-in-plain-sight molesters are the ones who do the vast majority of the child molestation. And you don’t need high-placed connections or conspiracies to escape lengthy prison sentences — in the case of Operation Cathedral, the sentences handed out were minimal and a few years here and there. The vast majority of their victims — some of which were photographed in what appears to be extremely sadistic circumstances — have never been identified. You don’t think that’s disturbing enough?

    I know this thing flares up every now and then, depending on what Corey Feldman tweets this week, or pizzagate, or Epstein, or some other creepy thing the Podestas are involved in, but it won’t change that essential preponderance. Child sex happens mostly in your neighborhood regardless of how many peers or Hollywood producers or members of the church of Satan live there. Moreover, if you only care about child rape when it can help you take down the normies (like Foucault and Ginsburg and Cohn-Bendit) or else take down the patriarchy (Dworkin, McKinnon) or else the Clintons (pizzagate) or else the Catholic church, that’s your prerogative, but in that case let’s stop pretending you actually care about child rape. You’re looking for a stick to beat something else with. If anything, you’re part of the problem.

    • Replies: @Schuetze
  142. Schuetze says:
    @HA

    Wikipedia barely mentions the newly release 2019 FBI documents. The existence of the tunnels was hidden during the trial, the FBI knew.

    You wrote: “Not by anyone with a shred of sense”. Clearly you are the one without a “shred of sense” if you insist on apologizing for an FBI coverup of pedo-satanists. This is why I stated that I didn’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

    • Replies: @HA
    , @HA
  143. Truth says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    I’m sorry my friend, that is a woman and an early eunuch. Probably castrated before 5 or so. That is not the physiological difference between to women, it is the physiological difference between a woman and a man. Once you know what you are looking for it is fairly easy to see.

    Notice how much this one looks like…Well let’s just say her father used to put on beauty contests.

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=miss+trans+global+2020

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  144. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    “Wikipedia barely mentions the newly release 2019 FBI documents.”

    Incorrect. I copied out the relevant portion in full. It contains a link to the FBI document itself. Barely mentions, you say? Again, you should try reading the actual article which I printed out for you in full. People who actually have a “shred of sense” tend to do that.

    “The existence of the tunnels was hidden during the trial, the FBI knew.”

    Again, incorrect. There is no evidence that anyone knew of this before the Stickel/Gunderson investigation that took place in May 1990. The FBI link discussing the tunnels consists of a 1 page copy of some sketch and then a page of text — again, right after the Tom Lewis resolution and right before some letter to the Customs service, with no date, but a reference to a certain “Gun….” someone or other (the copy is not very good). If you have any evidence that this refers to anyone other than Gunderson himself , produce it. (Note the mention of the 1982 Disney bag, which Gunderson also mentions, further increasing the likelihood that it’s the very same May-1990 report).

    Also note that Raymond Buckey (after spending five years in prison) was retried beginning on May 7, 1990, and that trial didn’t conclude till July (hung jury).Why didn’t the parents or Stickel /Gunderson bother submitting this tunnel evidence if you regard it as so vitally important? Were they all in on the fix?

    Again, all this is clearly evident to anyone who has bothered to read the article. Next time, try doing that. For momma’s sake.

    • Replies: @Schuetze
  145. Schuetze says:
    @HA

    I copied out the relevant portion in full.

    Of the wikipedia article.

    • Replies: @HA
  146. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    PS According to your own link the p 49 reference in the FBI report to the McMartin tunnels is indeed from Gunderson (the investigator the parents hired), who dug around the area in May of 1990. I.e., contrary to what you say, there is no evidence that the FBI or anyone else knew about any of this prior to then, which was after five years of Buckey sitting in jail and more than a month before his 2nd trial concluded.

  147. HA says:
    @Schuetze

    “Of the wikipedia article.”

    Exactly. The one you apparently can’t be bothered to read because it not only lists the things you want everyone to know about, but also mentions things you want to hide. You want to claim the parents/lawyers never bothered to reveal Gunderson’s report, or something to that effect, if you can ever be bothered to get your timeline straight or figure out which report the FBI sat on.

    In the meantime, here’s some other evidence that the jury never got to hear. The main accuser admitted to the prosecutors she had exhibited signs of mental illness before this whole thing started. One of the prosecutors quit in disgust over how the rest declined to tell that to the defense, as was their legal obligation. That’s all in the Wikipedia article. Was it in any of your links? There’s no doubt that some of the children may have well come to believe that they were abused — as Elizabeth Loftus’ research has shown (and this was something the right actually cared about back when Blasey Ford was making accusations against Kavanaugh — it’s pretty easy for that to happen even if you’re not as impressionable as a young child). But one of the children eventually confessed that nothing happened, and that everything was “elicited”, in the sense that the interviewers kept egging him until they got the story they wanted. That’s mentioned in the Wikipedia article too. Was it in any of your links? The jury also never got to hear how the prosecutor was literally sleeping with the editor of the local big media outlet shaping the story. And you think it’s the FBI who’s not willing to tell us the whole story? Yeah, right.

    Here’s another link to the confession by one of the children, if the LATimes article is behind a paywall, or if you’re just too Wiki-phobic to dig it up yourself:

    But the lying really bothered me. One particular night stands out in my mind. I was maybe 10 years old and I tried to tell my mom that nothing had happened…My mother kept asking me to please tell her what was the matter. I said she would never believe me. She persisted: “I promise I’ll believe you! I love you so much! Tell me what’s bothering you!”… I remember finally telling her, “Nothing happened! Nothing ever happened to me at that school.” She didn’t believe me.

  148. @Truth

    I gave no idea who you are referring to as this poor misguided soul’s father.

    • Replies: @Truth
  149. Truth says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    No the girl that she looks like (just like) has a father that put on beauty pageants, and yeah, you know him.

    OK My friend, time to take the red pill, but be ready for this…

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
  150. @Truth

    Ok. I appreciate what you’re looking at but I’m still not going down this particular road. I’m not going to pretend that I’m 100 percent sure you’re on a wild goose chase but I’m not joining in. The transgender agenda is being pushed by hugh profile people though, to be sure.

    Go back to Tom Brady. He had a child with Michelle Monaghan before dumping her. If you were a straight guy, would you dump a gorgeous woman to take up with a tranny?

    • Replies: @Jefferson Temple
    , @Truth
  151. @Jefferson Temple

    I see i was mistaken. It’s Bridget Moynihan, not Michelle Monaghan. Both gorgeous, so my comment stands.

  152. Truth says:
    @Jefferson Temple

    Bridget Moynahan. The reason people have such a hard time with this is the pure scope of the operation. It is an international plot that has been in operation since the Old Testament. Yes, I said it exactly what I meant.

    Number one, he had no choice if he wanted to be Tom Brady. These people have agendas to push, they are not agents, actors or musicians, that is just their cover story. What they are, is agents of change:

    A wise man once said, “believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see…”

    Number two, well…You see, this Moynahan person is a “runway model…”

    You see, my friend, a wise man has NO idols on TV, and lusts after NO ONE there either.

    As a matter of fact, a wise man doesn’t own one. I destroyed both of mine 3 years ago. You have no idea what you are ingesting with that thing on… but they will soon tell you (wink).

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