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The US is unusual in providing racial breakdowns of crime data, including the race of the perpetrators of violent crimes. The US Bureau of Justice Statistics are an excellent source of real data. They do surveys of victimization in the community (National Crime Victimization Survey) which are un-affected by any presumed Police biases, and include crimes reported and not reported to the Police. Uniform Crime Reporting records the actual crimes reported to the police. The findings of both are often interpreted in the light of US history, particularly since the beginning of African slavery in 1500, and US immigration history, with White Americans now being 60% of the population.

What about another country, with a different history? Specifically, Britain, which had virtually no African population until 1948, and in which (2011 estimate) White British are 87% of the population. These different histories should make a difference in crime figures. In Britain the racial aspects of the crime statistics are less clear. Some results have come out through Freedom of Information requests, but proper data of the US sort is less readily available.

So, it was interesting to hear what the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said in evidence to the Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee in July 2020. For background, the Metropolitan Police deal with London, and are the largest police force in Britain. London has the greatest immigrant population. Crime is dealt with by the Home Office, a government department. The most recent figures for London show 15,590 knife crimes in the past year.

Parliamentary enquiries are investigations similar to the US model, and combine close questioning with political point scoring. Now, a further complication: men with a knighthood are addressed as Sir, women as Dame.

Dame Cressida Dick fielded questions about how the police were dealing with the lockdown, and with knife crime and crime generally, with a focus on racial differences, particularly on the numbers of people stopped and searched.

If I go to violent crime, in London last year 72% of homicide victims under 25 were black. Nationally—you probably know the figures—you are four times more likely to be a victim of homicide if you are black and eight times more likely to be a perpetrator. The overlap with my key metric, which is knife injuries for under 25s, which we have been reducing for the last two years and into this year, shows enormous disproportionality in the way it affects our young black men as victims and, I am sorry to say, as perpetrators. That is horrible. For knife robbery, gangs, county lines, line holders: hugely disproportionate.

“County lines” and “line holders” refer to those running drug delivery networks.

The “8 times more likely to be a perpetrator” figure for Black British was not generally known, so it was a surprise to hear it in a public arena. The figure is roughly the same as that for homicide for African Americans, despite their different histories. US Police and UK Police differ considerably, in that the latter are not usually armed. That does not appear to make a difference in the ratio of black to white offenders. Black British were originally from the West Indies, and after 70 years in the UK, whatever their experiences, they were not subjected to possibly 500 years of life in the US. It is either a coincidence that both homicide rates are equally raised, or it suggests that the US experiences are not a unique cause of Black homicide rates.

Although the Commissioner did not give a reference, the homicide data is available, though in a format which does not make the ratio immediately obvious.

The relevant results are in Table 27, showing 800 convictions for homicide. (The last three rows of numbers are the population expectations, which I have added in).

These results are startling. Although Blacks are 3.3% of the population, they account for 17.6% of all murders, 5.34 times more than expected.

Although Whites are 86% of the population, they account for 69.8% of all murders, only 0.81 times those expected, so less than their population numbers. Putting the two together means that Blacks are 6.6 times more homicidal than Whites.

As a result, although there are 26 times more Whites than Blacks in England and Wales, Blacks murder more Whites (45), than Whites murder Blacks (11), a 4-fold difference. Proportional to their numbers in England and Wales, it is far more likely that a Black person murders a White person than the other way round.

The likelihood of a Black person murdering a White person is 45/(56,100,000*.033) = .0000243072
The likelihood of a White person murdering a Black person is 11/(56,100,000*.86) = .000000227998

Moving now from relative rates of offending to the disputed matter of “Stop and Search”, the next issue is how the UK Police operate this system.

Question 19 reveals that 35% of those handcuffed are black.

In reply to Question 21 on whether stop and search yields positive results (meaning that the Police find a weapon, drugs or stolen property), the Commissioner replies:

I have not had rigorous academic research on this, but I am utterly sure there is a link. I have said so on many occasions. There is a link between the presence of officers on the streets and the level of violent crime. There is a link between the use of stop and search and the level of violent crime. You can draw a graph in the last few years that pretty much shows exactly that.

Question 25, asked by the Chairwoman, is whether black men are being picked on disproportionately.

Chair: Yes. I am looking particularly at the Met figures for May alone for young black men in London. It looks like—and clarify if we have misread the figures—10,000 young black men aged 15 to 24 were stopped and searched in that one month of May and over 8,000 of them were not found to be carrying anything or doing anything that required any further action. That is 8,000 people in one month and there was no further action required. The young black population of London, from the figures I have, is only between 70,000 and 80,000 people. That suggests that in one month alone more than one in 10 young black men in London were stopped, searched and found to be carrying nothing and found not to be doing anything that required further action. That is just in one month and also at a time when most people would have been at home during lockdown. Does it alarm you that you have so many people from that cohort being stopped and searched and nothing further found, especially when the chances of them being in that group where there is no further action needed is five times higher than for young white men during the same period?

Dame Cressida Dick: I am not alarmed. I have said before that I am alert and I remain alert. First, the positive outcome rate is the same, whatever ethnic group you come from. The disproportionality in London has dropped a bit. It has become better or less bad in the last year or so. It is very much lower than many other forces, as you know. In London you are 3.8 times more likely to be stopped and searched if you are black, whereas in many places it would be seven or nine times more likely.

Q26 Chair: But your likelihood of being stopped and searched and having nothing found and no further action taken, that is the group I am talking about. I am not talking about the cases where you have found something and somebody was carrying a knife or there is some further action to be taken. I am talking about the sheer number of people being stopped and searched and nothing is found at a time when you had a very big increase in stops and searches—in May, when most people were at home. You had this big increase in stops and searches and also a drop in the proportion of positive outcomes. You were stopping more people but you, therefore, as a result, had a lot more people being searched without anything being found and a lot of people who may well be feeling, “Why am I being stopped and searched? Why am I going through a potentially humiliating experience?” and so on. Does it worry you that you have had such a big increase in the number of people stopped without finding anything and the community impact that that is likely to have?

Dame Cressida Dick: I am alert to that. Of course, I am concerned about that and I am talking to people about that. To be clear, it came down from 28% to about 20% slowly during the last many months. It is now heading slightly back up. I want the positive outcome rate to be high and higher, if you like. That is what I am talking to the teams about all the time.

This is a very interesting exchange. Assume no political posturing and that the questions reveal an honest misunderstanding about Police work. The Commissioner points out that the rate of stopping and searching Blacks is 3.8 times as high as for Whites, and that in other places it will be 7-9 times more frequent. Given that she has already said that Blacks are 8 times more likely to be perpetrators, it seems that other Police forces have got it right, and London is going off at half cock. A reasonable supposition is that London needs to double its searches of young Blacks. It would prevent injury to other citizens, particularly other Black citizens.

Here is an interesting technical question: what hit rate makes the search policy worth-while? The Chair of the Parliamentary Commission is concentrating on those who were stopped, searched and found not to be carrying anything, as if this invalidated the procedure, but no search technique can be based on absolute foresight, only reasonable suspicion. Searching people at airports comes to mind. The hit rate is very low, but the harm avoided is worthwhile.

According to the figures, 10,000 out of (a maximum of) 80,000 black men have been stopped and searched with a hit rate of 20-28%. The Government actuary values a UK life at £1,800,000 so in purely financial terms preventing even one murder seems worth it. Police wages must be paid anyway, so there is little marginal cost. Stop and search procedures have to be explained and documented for each person searched, so they will take up some time for police and person searched, which is a real but hidden cost for citizens.

A search does not have to be interpreted as a humiliation, but it certainly implies suspicion, and can be a cause of resentment if it happens very often. However, it also protects even those who are irritated by it.

One question to which we don’t have a precise answer, even though it is highly relevant, is what the chance is of finding weapons, drugs or stolen property on an average citizen, or even on an average young Londoner. We can estimate it thus:

The number of 15-24 year-olds in London is 1,033,030. The most recent figures for London show 15,590 knife crimes were carried out in the past year. Assuming that each knife crime was perpetrated by one 15-24 year-olds carrying a knife, then 1.5% of young men in London are carrying a knife at some time. If the Police stop young men at random, for every 10,000 stopped they will get a positive result in 150 cases. For every 10,000 Black Londoners, assuming an 8 times higher rate of offending, they would find 1,200 offenders.

In fact, they found 2,000 offenders. The Police did a good job. They chose well, probably because they not only noticed suspicious behaviours, but probably also because they recognized frequent offenders. The Police have noticed some things about criminals. It is hard to stop people noticing things, unless of course you punish them for it, or pay them not to notice.

I think we have proved the case once, but why not prove it again with another approach?

On average, by searching 5 young Blacks you prevent 1 offence, possibly a very serious one. In the process, you might irritate 4. Is it worth it? As you will recognize, we are looking at Numbers Needed to Treat, and Numbers Needed to Harm. No medicine or procedure cures every single patient, so NNT = 1 is usually a dream.

Stop and Search with a 20% success rate has an NNT of 5, which is very good.

If the hit rate was 28% the NNT would be 3.5 (usually rounded up to 4) which is better than 5.

The NNT for statins to prevent one heart attack is 104.
(Only worth it if you are at high risk, and if they cause harm at a very low rate, and certainly less than 1/104).

NNT for anti-hypertensives to prevent one heart attack is 100.

Flu shot, to prevent flu, healthy adults NNT of 12-37, for seniors, 40.

Early use of anti-biotics in open fractures, NNT 16.

Anti-epileptics for first unprovoked seizure, NNT 10.

Migraine relief in 2 hours with sumatriptan, NNT 2.6

So, sumatriptan is worth taking for headaches. If you do not have cardiac symptoms or predisposing factors, it is probably not worth taking statins prophylactically.

Traditionally, having calculated Numbers Needed to Treat, we should now calculate the Numbers Needed to Harm. Ideally, we want to treat hundreds of people without causing any harm, however slight. For vaccinations, we might want any harm (severe reaction) to happen to less than 1 in 750,000. For example, if Police officers sometimes stabbed the person they stop and search, then the NNH would be 100, or 1000 depending how often they stabbed. As it is, the harm they are accused of is taking up time, and by implication casting aspersions on those they search.

In summary, Black British rates of offending are very similar to African American rates, despite very different generational histories, and different Police procedures. Stop and Search is a useful procedure, and saves lives.

A final point about mutative effects: if the Police did far more stopping and searching of youths, then they would eventually reassure all youths that other youths were not carrying knives, which would lead to a drop in knife crime. There would be far less need to carry a knife in self-defense. At that stage the hit rate for stop and search would begin to plummet, and there would be protests that it was inconveniencing too many innocent people, and should be abandoned, which it probably would be, until crime rose again.

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  1. Chensley says:

    James, one mistake that is often made with data like this is presuming that those 8000 stops were all different individuals and not the same person stopped twice (or three times…or n times). I think it’s likely that it’s a non-zero number. Hard to keep data that precise but it is worth mentioning given that one politicians insinuation.

  2. Agree that your observation is possible, and likely, but I think the general points hold. More detail would be preferable, I agree.

  3. That is interesting information on homicides, and thank you for finding it. In the years after the MacPherson report, the UK Government loudly announced its intention to provide figures on homicides by ethnicity, doubtless expecting they would show the hideous racism of the natives. When this turned out not to be the case (in fact the opposite), the information became harder and harder to find.

    Table 3.6

    2001-2004 there were 38 homicides of blacks, 28 of Asians, and 22 of ‘other’ where the principal suspect was white. For blacks, 87 homicides of whites, 12 of Asians, 11 ‘other’, for Asians 37 homicides of whites, 7 of blacks and 6 of ‘other’, for ‘other’ 29 homicides of whites, 4 black, one Asian.

    Black homicide of whites 87, victims of whites 38
    Asian suspects 37, victims 28
    “Other” suspects 29, victims 22

    So in all the interracial homicide categories, whites were the main victims. For black and white the bottom line figures haven’t changed much, for every black person killed by whites, two whites are killed by blacks. The biggest change seems to be that there are slightly more Asian victims of whites than white victims of Asians now, whereas 2001-4 the ratio was 4-3 the other way. It was the post-9/11 era when the government response to that event had them feeling their oats – riots in Oldham/Bradford/Blackburn etc, leading up to the 2005 Tube bombings.

    PS – the 2001-4 figures are IIRC for England and Wales. Scotland is another country altogether, with a generally higher homicide rate.

  4. res says:

    Thanks for your thorough and well referenced look at this. I think your NNT idea is the right approach to use. Unfortunately she did not give the figures we really need to calculate it for the different groups.

    I have been unable to find raw statistics for that (and am beginning to suspect that is a clue). But here are some links.

    This provides a good overview and some useful background.

    There are two types of searches. PACE Section 1 searches are much more common, but Section 60 Criminal Justice & Public Order Act have been increasing rapidly since 2016. Q21 talks about Section 60, but I can’t tell if the remainder of the discussion is focused on that or covers both types.

    April 2018 – March 2019

    The police conducted 172,237 stop and searches under PACE Section 1 across the area covered by Metropolitan Police.

    This was an increase of 30% from the previous year.

    There were 9,614 stop and searches under Section 60 Criminal Justice & Public Order Act, a power which doesn’t require individual reasonable suspicion.

    This was an increase of 424% from the previous year.

    There is additional analysis there which is worth a look.

    There is more research out there if one looks. A sample from 2010.
    Stop and Search: Disproportionality, Discretion and Generalisations

    Finally found some raw data at

    First thing to note is that in SS.06 for PACE Section 1 for the Metropolitan Area there are 27,617 with ethnicity Not Stated/Unknown out of 172,237 stops. That leaves a lot of room for skulduggery.

    SS.04 has the number of resulting arrests by category for PACE Section 1 so it is possible to calculate the overall arrest/search rate for each region (would be interesting to see how they compare). I did this. For MPS the 2018/19 arrest rate was 15.4%. For England and Wales as a whole it was 15.7%. The figure varies from 8.0% in Gwent to 32.1% in the City of London. Actually, SS.14 has an even better look at the arrest rates by region.

    SS.05 has “Searches made by reason for search” and “Resultant arrests by reason for arrest” so it is possible to get a rough idea of how effective and prevalent each of the different types of searches is (the briefing paper linked below has a discussion about this).

    But the real meat is in SS.16 and SS.17! Sadly those are not broken down by region as above. But at least MPS (Metropolitan Police) is separated out. Which I think is our focus.
    SS.16: Proportion of stops and searches by self-defined ethnicity, England and Wales, 2017/18 and 2018/19
    SS.17: Proportion of stops and searches resulting in arrests by self-defined ethnicity, England and Wales, 2017/18 and 2018/19

    So what I did is to calculate a relative success rate (% stops resulting in arrest in SS17 divided by % stops in SS16) by ethnicity for each type of stop by the MPS. A text table would be too hard to read, but hopefully you can reproduce and provide an image? Here is the form of the equations I used in sheet SS.17 to generate the numbers: “C7/SS_16!C7”

    What I see there is that the MPS is not doing that bad a job of managing the relative stop arrest rates. There is some variation by year though. Worth noting that “Not stated” has a low relative arrest rate (~0.75 for Section 1, ~0.55 for Section 60) which concerns me.

    Of course an obvious way to fudge that statistic is to vary the arrest criteria by ethnicity. Perhaps a better metric would be something found? I am not seeing data for that though.

    Note that there is no age breakdown in this. Much of the conversation has been focused on young black males who likely have extreme rates of both stop and arrest.

    I was not able to find the 2020 version of that data.

    This briefing paper looks like a good overview of stop and search.
    But note this excerpt ; )

    What is causing the disparity in ethnic search rates?

    There is no evidence to suggest that BME people are more likely to carry items that officers have powers to search for. Neither is there evidence that suggests they are more likely to be involved in criminality associated with stop and search enforcement.108 Other suggested reasons for disparities in ethnic search rates (like black people spending more time in public spaces, or the under recording of searches conducted on white people) have also been shown to have no credible basis.109 Societal racism and its effects (including unconscious bias in some officers) appears to explain most of the disparity in stop and search rates by ethnicity.110 However, a tactical decision by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) to use stop and search more frequently may explain some
    of the disparity.

    The disparities in ethnic stop and search rates for England and Wales are primarily influenced by stop and search activity in London because the MPS conducts more searches than any other force.

    I would LOL, but it is not funny. The statement is so ludicrous that I followed reference 108 to see what it actually said.

    On page 35 we see this masterpiece of (attempted) justification for criminality:

    Ethnicity: Victim and suspect rates for serious violence vary by ethnic group as illustrated by the homicide rates below (table 6). Despite the representations made in the table, the evidence on links between serious violence and ethnicity is limited. Once other factors are controlled for, it is not clear from the evidence whether ethnicity is a predictor of offending or victimisation.78 In his report into the treatment of, and outcomes for, Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) individuals in the Criminal Justice System,79 David Lammy MP highlighted the rising proportion of BAME young people in the youth justice system, comprising 19% of first time offenders, 19% of reoffenders and 41% of young people in custody in 2016. The review noted that, unless something changes, the current group of young people who offend would become the next generation of adult offenders. We also know that there is a significant amount of distrust between children and young people from BAME communities and the criminal justice system. Research80 shows that this lack of trust among children and young people stems from experiences of being stereotyped and harassed.

    But if we turn to the very next page we see the hate stats in their full glory. A relative rate for principal suspects in homicides of ~6x for blacks relative to whites. No evidence indeed.

    Section 3 of the briefing paper has a useful discussion of linked outcomes (something found, arrest). But no breakdown by ethnicity–surprise!

    P.S. Was the right link for Table 27? I am only seeing overall population demographic data there.

    I think this is the correct link (the table is in the Excel file).

  5. Res, thanks for all your detailed work.
    I note in the first Stop watch reference that only 21% of stops are for weapons, though of course what we really need is to know how many result in finding weapons.
    Note the “disproportionality” measures White: Black 4.3 which is exactly what the Commissioner said.
    Of course, once you have data you should talk about the “proportionality rate”. Asian at 1.6 is spot on.
    Funnily, section 60 for Black is closer to the mark at 11, though that overshoots.

    Yes, the SS.06 of 28,000 of unknown race is strange, and a fertile source of error. Mind you, I talked to a Met policeman about race and searches, and he told me he had to release a miscreant with probable stolen goods on him whom he had run after and captured because the victim gave the wrong race description, probably out of shock. He said “I had him by the wrist and then when the description came over the radio I had to let him go”.

    I will get on with your other refs tomorrow, since it is now late. Best, James

  6. … if the Police did far more stopping and searching of youths, then they would eventually reassure all youths that other youths were not carrying knives, which would lead to a drop in knife crime.

    Perhaps, but but stopping minorities is a lot riskier for police than harassing non-minorities for being outside during lockdown, so they do that instead, and with great relish. What’s the NNT for preventing a marginal increase of one COVID-19 case versus the NNT of preventing one marginal knife crime? Someone needs to drum that into the heads of the Constabulary, but the SJWs will have nothing of it.

  7. What’s this nonsense about British justice? There is no such thing!

    • Replies: @dearieme
    , @Curmudgeon
  8. In summary, Black British rates of offending are very similar to African American rates, despite very different generational histories, and different Police procedures.

    If I understand correctly, the ratio of black to white offending is similar in the USA and UK. What about the absolute rates? Does the USA have a higher overall homicide rate than the UK, and if so, what conclusions can we draw from the black/white ratio?

    Does black offending adjust to a fixed multiple of offending by the majority? Or is the similar black/white ratio a coincidence, resulting from generally lower homicide rates in Europe than the Americas, combined with the fact that West Indians are less antisocial than US blacks?

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  9. @James N. Kennett

    I did some national comparisons in the previous post.

  10. dearieme says:
    @Ann Nonny Mouse

    The expression “British Justice” is a popular euphemism for the antics of the English courts.

    Here’s a paradox: the Scottish courts, and indeed Scots lawyers, were traditionally much superior to their English equivalents. But since devolution this superiority seems to have dwindled.

    Perhaps the Scots system was better off under remote, light-touch government by the Westminster parliament than under the oppressive rule of the Holyrood parliament.

    But I digress.

    • Agree: Gordo, Bill Jones
  11. res says:

    I was thinking about this a bit more and was wondering if we need to be thinking about these disparities in terms of how far out on the tails the events are. Consider the following cases.

    – Killed by police.
    – Commit homicide.
    – Attack someone with a weapon.
    – Carrying a weapon.
    – Carrying drugs.

    I think we can agree that those are listed from lowest frequency to highest. Given that, wouldn’t we expect the disparities to be greatest at the top of the list (farthest out on the tail)?

    I’m not sure how good an approximation distributions of a single trait of criminality would be (e.g. drugs and weapons offenses might differ greatly in their proportions within different groups), but it seems useful as a thought experiment.

    Given the great difference in frequencies within that list, wouldn’t we expect to see a larger difference between the offense rates for different cases than we do in reality?

    This just provides additional reason to favor metrics which rely on success rates where success is defined as a search that found something actionable. This measures the disparities directly for the cases in question.

    P.S. I think a useful analogy is the idea of measuring loan origination discrimination by looking at relative default rates for different groups and comparing those to relative interest rates. That can measure two different issues.
    – Discrimination in loan approvals indicated by a lower default rate.
    – Discrimination in terms offered indicated by a lower default rate for a given interest rate.

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  12. @Ann Nonny Mouse

    Justice is a process, not a result. However, I suggest that British justice is as selective as justice is in every other country in the world. The question would be, to what degree the justice is selective.

    • Replies: @Ann Nonny Mouse
  13. Jan says:

    All schools in England (Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have separate but similar systems) are inspected and graded at regular intervals: the inspection reports are published. Initially, they provided a percentage breakdown of each school’s ethnic composition. This was stopped as it was an easy to access leading-indicator of how rapidly an area’s demographics were changing.

  14. Narrow efficacy measures aside, the British judiciary has manifestly been made to conform to the US Phung Hoang template for CIA puppet governments:

    Same Soviet-type Alice-in-Wonderland nonsense, dictated on the fly by CIA handlers, “inherently arbitrary, to the point of making any legal remedies a pointless formality devoid of prospect,” as UN special procedures have characterized it.

    So it’s understandable that UK policing would reproduce US discrimination patterns. UK knife laws are even sillier than US gun laws (the sword-cane ban!!) so it’s cute to hear right-wing eggheads musing about enforcement effectiveness.

  15. anon[130] • Disclaimer says:

    Narrow efficacy measures aside, the British judiciary has manifestly been made to conform to the US Phung Hoang template for CIA puppet governments:

    Same Soviet-type Alice-in-Wonderland nonsense, dictated on the fly by CIA handlers, “inherently arbitrary, to the point of making any legal remedies a pointless formality devoid of prospect,” as UN special procedures have characterized it.

    So it’s understandable that UK policing would reproduce US discrimination patterns. UK knife laws are even sillier than US gun laws (the sword-cane ban!!) so it’s cute to hear right-wing eggheads musing about enforcement effectiveness.

  16. lavoisier says: • Website

    In summary, Black British rates of offending are very similar to African American rates, despite very different generational histories, and different Police procedures. Stop and Search is a useful procedure, and saves lives.

    Must be due to racism, because to think it would have anything to do with genetics is just something too odious to consider.

    • Replies: @anonymous1963
    , @CanSpeccy
  17. @res

    A good musing, which chimes with my own, but for a different reason. Murder is easy to count because it is rare and taken seriously, but as emergency medicine improves even further, it ceases to be as pure an “extreme” measure as it previously was.
    Perhaps we should measure stabbings as a more stable everyday measure. Not sure about this even as I write it.

    Also, your problem about the difficulty of knowing how many repeat offenders there are is that Pareto always rules, so 80% of stabbings are probably perpetrated by 20% of knife carriers, mostly gang leaders and their enforcers.

    I remember security people telling me that IRA bombings were not carried out by psychopaths. psychopaths were used for the most important task: internal security. They did not blink when asked to shoot the knee cap off one of their best mates, if the leadership doubted their loyalty.

    Loan defaults and interest rates. Good point. Worth looking at both, and at the interaction with the state of the economy. Downturns hit the least well qualified harder. Also relevant if one looks at every citizen (and every immigrant) as an insurance risk. What premium would have to be paid in a free market to protect everyone else from a costly person. In Britain, typically, an un-insured driver’s damage is paid for by everyone else.

  18. The phrase “victims and, I’m sorry to say, perpetrators” jumped out at me.

    Is she really saying that she feels bad about proving that there’s a disproportionate amount of black criminals, but not about proving that there’s a disproportionate number of black people suffering?

    If that’s the case, then the Dame really is a Dick.

  19. In the early years of slavery in the US colonies and before during indentured labour/involuntary indentured labour, blacks from the Caribbean were recruited or bought in large numbers in preference to untrained Africans who could not speak English. So there are common cultural roots involved.

    In te 1970’s, as an apprentice, in Rugby, I had digs in a largely West Indian part of town, my landlady being Irish. Most were from Trinidad and Barbados and I saw no trouble. I went to the same pub as the only white face. I should add that at the time I dressed as a skinhead. Then I went to visit my university friends who lived in South Norwood near Crystal Palace in London. It was a sunny spring day. All the people I passed on the where they lived were black. A police man and police woman were walking towards me. They were followed by a group of children about 10 years old chanting “Babylon”. This could have had nothing to do with their experience of police brutality. Knowing what I know now, they were Jamaican. “Which islan’ you from?” was a crucial question for non Jamaicans. It was a precursor to a beating.

    I have subsequently taken an interest in policing in Jamaica. Rural areas are no great problem. Kigston is a hotbed of drugs, cocaine not just Ganja, other crime and violence. The police go to arrest dealers in groups of 100. They carry arms. The dealers provoke the community into riots to distract the police. There is clearly a cultural root for this behaviour.

    My distant cousin John Vaughan is sometimes described as the first English (albeit he was Welsh) non military governor of Jamaica after the Spanish were removed. He was both preceded by and succeeded by the privateer Captain Henry Morgan, also Welsh. (Badly spelled Welsh girls names like Fluella and Rihanna are found across the West Indies). Morgan features on a Rum brand. He and Morgan, his deputy for a while, quarrelled violently over the treatment of the Marroons, runaway slaves. Morgan wanted to hunt them down, kill some, flog many as an example to the others and return them to slavery. Vaughan wanted to turn them into vegetable farmers. All food was imported so a local food supply made the place more secure militarily. Obviously, Morgan and a particularly savage form of repression won. Slavecatchers will never be popular with slaves and the authorities were slavecatchers.

    Then, somewhat later, we have General Picton, also Welsh. The highest ranking officer to die at Waterloo. A logistical genius. In this case he was governor of Trinidad. He was recalled as governor due to public horror for his treatment of his 14 year old black, female servant (it is ambiguous that she was a slave). She was hung by one arm with a rope suspended from the ceiling and allowed one foot at tip toe on a wooden stake. After days of this she did not confess. This was a common punishment in the army of the time. This may not have been as unbearable for a slim 14 year old girl as for a fully grown 25 year old man. It was still seen as horrific by the British public. The fact that it was a scandal suggests that Trinidad was different from Jamaica.

    Perhaps Jamaicans (I believe the main Caribbean immigrant group in London) arrived with a bad attitude to the police built in. Their attitudes have spilt over to other West Indians and some Nigerians. I also know first generation Africans (Zambians, Ghanaians) in London. They are horrified at the attitudes they see from West Indians towards opportunties available in Britain. In Africa going to school is seen as a huge privilige.

    I suggest that the culture of Jamaica has a lot to do with “Black” crime in the UK.

  20. dearieme says:
    @Philip Owen

    The schoolteacher wife of a friend of mine was upset by seeing how often the teenage children of decent families from the other islands were seduced into the violent culture of Jamaica. This would have been back in the 1960s.

    • Replies: @padre
  21. Dan Hayes says:
    @Philip Owen

    I had heard that Caribbean slave ship journeys ended with deposition of their most recalcitrant consignments in Jamaica, thereby contributing to Jamaicans’ hard-core edge! True?

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  22. Scotist says:

    Jamaicans and South Africans make up a very large part of blacks in the UK. It just so happens that Jamaica and South Africa are at the very extreme, high end of homicide rates in the black world. Jamaica is the most violent country in the Caribbean and the second most violent in the world. South Africa is one of the most violent countries in Africa.

    This is still very far from evidence of some kind of innate violent trait in blacks.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  23. anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @Philip Owen

    This is nothing new.

    The film SCUM, which pitted run-of-the-mill white poor 17 year old Irish Londoners (Winstone) against Jamaicans from Brixton in a Borstal sketched that out in the late seventies “WHERE’S YOUR TOOL?”.

    There was also a scene in LONG GOOD FRIDAY where the IRA-besieged gangland chieftain goes into Brixton for the Jamaican pimp.

    Interesting about both of those films-SCUM being a docudrama more or less which was incredibly accurate about 14-20 youth crime is that Pakistanis were not present. In those days in those institutions it was simply low-class white villains, Jamaicans and a few mental cases of both races.

    Interestingly, a similar docudrama called BAD BOYS that was also set in a juvenile jail sketched out the same racial hostilities of Chicago and they were verbatim-a tough Irish-American kid of 16 (Penn) who enters into a conflict with a Puerto Rican drug-dealing teenager in a youth facility.

    We can draw the following conclusions. That the Caribbeans are primarily mixed race. That for some reason the fomentation of their history results in violent individuals.

  24. Z-man says:

    Britain like America is going to the dogs. I bet that those accurate American statistics that the author points out will soon be banned from being recorded because it will be considered RACIST to note the color of the perpetrator.
    Race war is coming even though the real enemy is almost white. (Wry grin)

  25. The best way to tackle crime is to make sure everyone is gainfully employed.

    A more interesting statistic would be: what percentage of people that have something to lose engage in violent crime?

    • Agree: Philip Owen
  26. Wielgus says:
    @Philip Owen

    How odd that a 14-year-old black girl went through days of torture and did not confess. We are told by some that Waffen-SS soldiers, you would think much tougher, only made supposedly false confessions to war crimes after WW2 because of the fiendish tortures they were subjected to.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  27. @Curmudgeon

    What does the farce of the courts’ treatment of Assange tell us about British “justice”? The idiots let a human rather than a kangaroo be the judge? Not able to meet the higher standards of a kangaroo court?

    • Agree: Wielgus
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  28. Pingo says:

    Blacks in London fall in to a number of distinct categories: those born here, West Indian immigrants, African recent immigrants.
    Those born here have their own pseudo-West Indian culture based on drugs, music and hate of whites (which include Jews as they consider the two identical). In the West Indies these artificial culture types are shunned totally because their pseudo-West Indian culture is just that, and developed purely to make as large a cultural gap in London between blacks and all other races.
    Those who have emigrated from the West Indies direct, whether fifty years ago or five years ago, are polite, considerate and hard working. It is their children and grand children that have embraced all the negativity and are primarily criminally orientated.
    African immigrants tend to be more intelligent with an IQ of 97 or 98 on average which makes them more intelligent and cleverer than most West Indians and a lot of working class whites. These blacks are horrified by the antics of the British born blacks.
    I was in hospital for 24 days over January and February this year and they asked me how many times I’d been mugged by black gangs. ‘Twice’ I told them. Every non black patient is asked this in London hospitals. With this information they schedule your nursing staff accordingly.
    After the BLM street demos I stopped going to black areas like Brixton, altogether, as it is now just too dangerous with police bending a knee to them. Areas with significant black populations I only visit in working hours.
    The reality for Londoners is that blacks born in London are too dangerous to either shop or socialise amongst.
    I have black friends but no ‘born in London black type’ friends.

  29. @Dan Hayes

    I don’t know. Jamaica had hard core commercial oftern shareholder owned plantations. The slaves were work brigades owned by far away shareholders. The same for Haiti and Guyana and somewhat Barbados. Slave life was short on such plantations. Trinidad, like many other islands had farms with resident owners who owned their slaves directly. So the skills or temperment of the slave wouldn’t matter much in Jamaica.

    What I discovered recently was how young the slaves shipped from Africa were. According to the records of freed slaves by the West Africa Squadron Most were under 14. Children sold to repay their parents debt, war orphans and so on but also simply snatched from their homes by local slavers while out alone. (Slave autobiographies attest this). There were few in their late teens and early twenties, especially women (better price locally? Harder to catch?) and then more in their late 20’s and 30’s.

    • Thanks: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Malla
  30. @Scotist

    I’m suggesting that it is environmental and culturally inherited.

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
  31. As an avid reader of UNZ, I have noted many reports on black behaviour in the states, thats mirror my own experience in the UK. Remember we had no slavery here and west-endian and African immigrants were invited over (on aeroplanes -not slave ships) after the second world war and given housing, education, jobs and healthcare that was exactly the same as the resident British population.

    There are no real ghetto’s like you have. Council estates are generally very mixed as are schools, There was no segregation…ever. So why is it the grandchildren of the original West Indian /Black immigrants are committing violent crime against each other and other races at similar rates to your black population. Why are Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese ….every other immigrant population not committing crime at rates even close to the blacks?

    1)Perpetual Victim Mentality – possibly learnt from rap culture and black americans, they are convinced the ‘system’ is out to get them. Police are employed solely to harass them and lock them up for no good reason. They are also hyper vigilant of any opportunity to be the victims of a racist comment or a racist look. I’ve actually heard a black girl scream at an elderly white woman for ‘looking at her racist’

    They cannot grasp the very simple notion that if you don’t get aggressive with the police, they will most likely treat you ok and let you go. If you have something to hide, then it doesn’t matter if your black or bright green -you are a criminal , that is why you are being arrested!

    2)Low Intellect – even when faced with statistics on violent crime as per this article, they will blame black on black crime on lack of opportunities from a racist system. Even though they go to the same schools as every other race and often have language advantages over other immigrant, they will always shift blame to an imaginary, non quantifiable racist system.

    3)Communication -I have noticed from watching interviews with BLM that when asked what they would change in this oppressive system, the only thing they say is more opportunities which translates as more welfare. They can never actually articulate a specific factor they want to change. It amazes me how poorly they are prepared for any interview and are outrages when people ask very simple questions. It shows how brainwashed they are into believing this myth of oppression.

    Another question which baffles them is when asked give specific personal examples of when they have experienced ‘racism’. Most defer by means of simulated outrage. The second most common response was being asked to change their hairstyle to look more ‘professional’ at work. This was under the employment of private companies and they admitted they had signed contracts that gave the employer the right to ask them this. When asked if any white employee’s had also been asked to change their appearance, they sheepishly said yes.

    Surely if something is so important to you -you should at least take the time to prepare and practice communicating to ensure your point is made?

    ‘Roadmen and talkin’ Road’ – Roadman culture stems from Jamaican rude-boys and basically encompasses young males selling drugs and committing related offences. It is a commonly used dialect amongst black inner city youth. Other races also speak it, but it is from West Indian yard mixed with English street language. For example females are referred to as ‘Gash’ or ‘Yat’. So if one Englishman wanted to say to his friend – ‘Im seeing a girl named Polly, mate’ in Road – it translates to ‘Man’s banging that polly gash fam”.

    Needless to say it is highly aggressive and offensive to listen to and when spat out by angry youths it is just an abomination of the English language. Liberals here are now suggesting it is racist to make minorities have to speak in a language everyone can understand, even for the sake of employment! Can you imagine ‘Some gash needs help over here fam!’.

    If that fails, blacks will just shout the same point over and over getting louder and louder. I experienced this at school and it used to drive me insane. Luckily I quickly moved up to the smarter classes with the more intelligent blacks who actually wanted to learn. They do not follow the rules of communication and discussion where one person speaks, the other listens and intelligent debate and conversation follows. They constantly interrupt and have no concept of being selfish by preventing others from learning.

    4)Jealousy and inter-black racism – White people don’t realise how enormously complicated the politics are between blacks. Where you are from – Jamaica – coolest. Africa – un-coolest. How dark your skin is, how curly your hair is. Blacks save most of their violence and cruelty for each other. I cannot describe how vindictive both boys and girls are to other blacks, normally just for their own personal entertainment. They seem to really enjoy being sadistic, I’ve never seen anything close to it in any other race.

    5) Lack of compassion and empathy – One thing I was really shocked by at school was the difference in the way black males used to treat girls and in the relationships they had with the same sex . It was about degrading girls after bullying them for months. They would capture it on their phones and show their mates. I’ll never forget the first time I heard the phrase ‘Line-up Gal’ used buy a black 15 year old male about a 14 year old white girl. It basically means they form a line and one after the other get oral sex from a girl who is terrified of them and their female counterparts -who after making her do it, tell everyone what ‘slag’ she is. They create these situations making other kids lives absolute hell, purely for their own sadistic entertainment.

    They could also have the most violent fall outs with so called ‘best mates’ who then become sworn enemies for life, over the most pathetic slights and perceived disrespects. The culture as a whole was so destructive, unproductive and just cruel and horrible. I don’t know where these kids learn it, but I see it start in puberty with blacks and gradually get worse in their 2o’s as they get stronger. This is true of kids from middle class families as it is from single parent low income households.

    6)Music – You have rap and trap. We have grime and drill, which have evolved into music for ‘Roadmen’ or drug dealer music. All day, this is all they listen to. All it does is glamourise violent crime and warns against snitches, haters and the worst thing you can call a black man in the UK. A ‘Pussio’, which I have learnt is the equivalent of calling a black man in America a ‘Bitch-ass Nigga’.

    On a good day I would expect to hear the word ‘Pussio’ a thousand times from the moment I got on the bus, to the moment I got home and closed the door. On a bad day, I would feign illness and go home, I couldn’t take any more of it. I now live in the country where I don’t have to deal with urban anything! Anyone who want’s to flood this country with more poor immigrants from Africa, has never spent anytime around our domestic blacks.

    They are arm-chair SJW’s brainwashed into turning on their own race. Black disfunction is engrained in their DNA and they are a poor return on investment and a waste of time. To create change, we should just focus with red-pilling as many whites as possible. Hopefully it will have an exponential effect and we can start to turn things around. If not I would estimate the UK will be non -white majority in >500 years. Don’t get me started on the moslems we have here!

    • Thanks: Dan Hayes, Clyde
  32. @David 'The Diversity Mastermind' Lammey

    Her surname alone tells you what she is, but given name + surname sound like a good name to give to the disease she represents.

  33. @Wielgus

    She was tortured for an hour the first day (the standard for the army) and 25 minutes the next. The sum involved was £500. The equivalent of half a million today. This was not some maid (or mistress) stealing the petty cash. She was made for life if she kept quiet (and trusted her boyfriend).

    The issue was the application of British or Spanish law. Britain had just taken over Trinidad from Spain. Picton allowed Spanish practices, which included torture, to continue. He invariably approved each case. Abolitionists took up this case because Louisa had such strong appeal to the public. She wowed the crowds in London when she turned up for Picton’s trial. The lower court found Picton guilty, as he should have been restraining the worst Spanish practices which were not found to be explicitly applicable to the West Indies. The verdict was rejected on appeal. The whole of Spanish law applied. The girl, her master and her boyfriend (one of a number) were all Spanish speaking and resident before the British arrived. Wikipaedia has a good piece and the Welsh internet too.

  34. padre says:

    You mean to say, that British culture is no violent!

    • Replies: @dearieme
  35. Britain, which had virtually no African population until 1948.

    So three glorious years after winning the war before losing the war.

    As the next White pensioner keels over with a few stab wounds: “At least we’re not speaking German.”

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
  36. Dexter P says:

    It’s very obvious to me that UK should completely stop black immigration. Doesn’t matter whether they are naturally predisposed to it (which they of course are), but wherever they go they commit way more crime than average. According to
    blacks are 10% of the population but commit 50%+ of knife crime, robberies, and others. This is a feature of blacks around the world. It’s not as if were they to disappear in there place would appear some other high-crime cohort. So whoever allowed black immigration is responsible for a lot of death and destruction. I don’t understand why UK didn’t instead take immigrants solely from well-behaved high IQ peoples. It’s not as if people wouldn’t want to go there. This baffles me.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  37. @Sick of Orcs

    A named group won.

    The real irony is English is related to German. It is even closer to Frisian dialects spoken in the Netherlands and Northern Germany.

  38. @Philip Owen

    Nature is a factor. Jamaica isn’t unique.

    According to the Global Study on Homicide 2019 published by the United Nations, of the 10 countries with the highest murder rates 5 (Jamaica, South Africa, Lesotho, Bahamas and Saint Lucia) are majority black. The rest are in mestizo Latin America. East Asian states have the lowest rates.

    If you consider non-violent crime and general lawlessness African and black- dominated countries are consistently at the bottom of Transparency International’s corruption index.

  39. dearieme says:

    Compared to Jamaica? You must be bloody joking.

  40. So blacks are bad, but what can be done about it?

  41. @jacobs-adder

    Best proposal for a VB (Visit Britain official tourism board) pamphlet ever.

  42. @Ann Nonny Mouse

    I agree. However, to return to the vernacular of my youth (in describing “justice” anywhere these days) Same shit, different pile.

  43. fnn says:

    I don’t understand why UK didn’t instead take immigrants solely from well-behaved high IQ peoples.

    You can’t be serious. That would be unthinkable given the current hegemonic ideology of North America and Western Europe.

  44. @Really No Shit

    Live in towns and cities that are at least 90% white

  45. @Dexter P

    Enoch Powell himself turned to New Commonwealth immigration to solve labour supply problems in post war UK. Bus conductors and nurses for example.

  46. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:

    Most large cities in England are so negrified that even most of the last remaining white youth speak with a faux Jamaican accent (Jafaican as it’s sometimes called) and have a Negro-esque demeanour, especially the working class youth.

    It has become so ingrained I don’t think they even see it as an imported, foreign culture. It’s just the culture of much of urban England.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  47. canspeccy says:

    Thinking in the longer term, why not end immigration to Britain altogether. It’s not as if Britain is a wide open space in need of more people. It is, in fact, one of the most densely places on the face of the planet.

    In the days of my youth, the 40’s and 50’s, England was a white and peaceable country, the homicide rate less than half what it is now. But through the treachery of leftist politicians and self-hating white liberals, the likes of Barbara Castle, Ted Heath, Jack Straw, Ed Milliband, and now Boris Johnson, indigenous Brits are being made a minority in their own homeland, as they are already in their capital city, London, and many other major urban centers, where the streets are no longer safe.

    But perhaps the British elite’s hatred of their own people is now so great as to have become fully genocidal.

  48. Whitewolf says:

    Theses results are startling

    No they aren’t. They are what most people expect regardless of what they say in public. No amount of propaganda is really going to change the correct perception that people have about the color of crime.

  49. Akouo says:

    “African slavery started in 1500” What on earth does that even mean?!
    “Britain didn’t have a black population until 1948” Utter nonsense! There have been black families in our port towns since the 1600’s! Probably longer than your own.
    Couldn’t get past that opening paragraph with this level of bullshit set up to the article. Try facts.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
    • LOL: fnn
    • Troll: SOL
  50. Interrogator: Are you alive?

    Dame Cressida Dick: I am alert to that.

  51. Malla says:
    @Philip Owen

    Talking about Slavery, from Tropical Colonization: An Introduction to the Study of the Subject by Alleyne Ireland, published in 1899 by Macmillan

    “In the meanwhile steps were taken in the colonies for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves. I have before me the Slave Laws of Jamaica passed in 1816, and some of the provisions are interesting as affording a view of the legal restraints placed upon planters in their relations with the slaves. Under this law the slaves were entitled to one day free from labor in every fortnight in addition to every Sunday. If the slaves did not receive at least twenty-six such free days in a year, the owner was liable to a fine of £20. No sugar mills were to be worked between the hours of seven o’clock on Saturday night and five o’clock on Monday morning, under a penalty of £20. Owners of slaves were compelled to give each slave a plot of land for the growing of provisions, or else to supply each slave with food to the value of 3s. 8d. wtekly, under a penalty of £50; and slave-owners who failed to provide their slaves with proper and sufficient clothing, to the satisfaction of a justice of the peace, were liable to a fine of £100.

    A statement on oath was required every year from each slave-owner in regard to the food and clothing supplied and the condition of the negroes’ provision grounds.

    If any slave-owner turned away a slave because of sickness, age, or infirmity, he became liable to a heavy fine and imprisonment in default of payment. The hours of labor for slaves in the field were fixed by law at a maximum of eleven and a half hours, except during crop time, and a penalty of £50 was attached to a breach of the law in this respect. Any person killing a slave was to suffer death, no alternative sentence being included in the law; and any person who cruelly whipped or otherwise maltreated a slave, or was in any way party to such an offence, was liable to a fine of £ 100 and imprisonment for twelve months.

    In 1826 the law was amended in several respects. The right was conferred on the slaves of owning property. Carnal knowledge of a female slave under ten years of age and rape on any female slave were made punishable by death. In the case of any slave charged with a capital offence the parish in which the trial took place was compelled to provide such slave with a legal adviser, the expense to fall on the parish funds.

    In the other British slave colonies laws were in force similar to those of Jamaica. I need only give one more instance. An Order-in-Council dated November 2, 1831, was the basis of the slave law in British Guiana. Every owner or manager of slaves had to provide once a year “ to each male slave of the age of fifteen years or upwards, one hat of chip, straw, or felt, or other more durable material, one cloth jacket, two cotton check shirts, two pairs of oznaburg trousers, one blanket, two pairs of shoes, one knife, and one razor. To every female slave of the age of thirteen or upwards, one chip or straw hat, two gowns or wrappers, two cotton check shifts, two oznaburg petticoats, two pairs of shoes, one blanket, and one pair of scissors.” The food to be given to the slaves was also specified. The manager or owner had the choice of giving each slave above the age of fifteen, half an acre of land suitable for growing provisions, and providing him or her, as the case might be, with all the necessary seeds and implements of husbandry for the cultivation of the plot (every child under fifteen years of age to receive a quarter of an acre); or of supplying each slave over ten years of age with twenty pints of wheat flour, or of the flour of Guinea or Indian corn, or fifty-six grown plantains, or fifty-six pounds of yams, and in addition seven salted herrings or shads, or other salted provisions, weekly. All offences on the part of slaves were divided into four classes, containing in all thirty heads, and the punishment for each offence was specified. Records
    were to be kept of every punishment inflicted, and such records, together with all others required under the law, were to be open to the Protector of Slaves, who was empowered to visit any estate without warning and had free access to the slaves at all times. The slaves had the right to leave any estate without permission if they wished to lay complaints before the Protector. All complaints were immediately investigated by the Protector or one of his subordinates.

    Every owner of forty slaves was compelled to engage the services of a medical practitioner, who had to inspect all the slaves under his care at least once a fortnight, and keep a journal in which the results of such inspections were to be entered. Special provision was made in the law that husband and wife, parent and child could not be separated from each other without their own free will and consent, and the following extract from the law shows how minute was the legislation on this point — the extract refers to women who might be detained in confinement for any offence — “ Provided always, and I do hereby order and direct, that if any woman in confinement shall be at the time giving suck to a child, the said child shall be duly sent in, at the proper periods, to its mother for that purpose.” ”

    • Replies: @Malla
  52. Malla says:


    “As slavery was abolished in 1838 throughout the British colonies, it is impossible for me to speak from personal observation of the treatment of the slaves, and it is necessary, therefore, in order to gain some idea of the’ operation of the slave laws, to consult the works of contemporary writers. No writer on the history of the West Indies has a higher reputation than Bryan Edwards, whose “ History, Civil and Commercial, of the British Colonies in the West Indies,” the first edition of which was published in 1793, and the fourth and last in 1807, remains to this day the most complete and admirable work on the history of the West Indies up to the early years of the present century.

    I feel that I cannot do better than transcribe a few pages from this work, as my readers will thus receive at first hand the result of observations made just prior to the abolition of slavery by an intelligent and unprejudiced inquirer.

    “ The gang is summoned to the labors of the field either by a bell or the blowing of a conch shell just before sunrise. They bring with them, besides their hoes or bills, provisions for breakfast; and are attended by a White person, and a Black superintendent called a driver. The list being called over and the names of all the absentees noted, they proceed with their work until eight or nine o’clock, when they sit down in the shade to breakfast, which is prepared in the meantime by a certain number of women, whose sole employment it is to act as cooks for the rest. This meal commonly consists of boiled yams, eddoes, ocra, calalue and plantains, or as many of those vegetables as they can procure; seasoned with salt and cayenne pepper; and, in truth, it is an exceeding palatable and wholesome mess. By this time most of the absentees make their appearance, and are sometimes punished for their sluggishness by a few stripes of the driver’s whip. But I am happy to say that of late years a very slight excuse is generally admitted. … At breakfast they are seldom indulged more than half or three quarters of an hour; and having resumed their work, continue in the field until noon, when the bell calls them from labor. They are now allowed two hours of rest and refreshment; one of which is commonly spent in sleep. Their dinner is provided with the addition of salted or pickled fish, of which each Negro receives a weekly allowance. Many of them, however, preferring a plentiful supper to a meal at noon, pass the hours of recess, either in sleep, or in collecting food for their pigs and poultry, of which’ they are permitted to keep as many as they please; or perhaps a few of the more industrious will employ an hour-in their provision grounds. … At sunset, or very soon after, they are released for the night . . . and if the day has been wet, or their labour harder than usual, they are sometimes
    indulged with an allowance of rum. On the whole, as the length of the day in the latitude of the West Indies differs very little throughout the year, I conceive they are employed daily about ten hours in the service of their master, Sundays and holidays excepted. In the crop season, however, the system is different; for at that time, such of the Negroes as are employed in the mill and boiling-houses often work very late, frequently all night; but they are divided into watches, which relieve each other, according to the practice among seamen; and it is remarkable, that at this season the Negroes enjoy higher health and vigor than at any other period of the year; a circumstance undoubtedly owing to the free and unrestrained use which they are allowed to make of the ripe canes, the can£-liquor, and syrup. … On the whole, notwithstanding some defects, let allowance be made for the climate and soil, and it may be asserted with truth and modesty, that, if the situation of the slaves in the British West Indies were, in all cases, on a level with their circumstances in regard to food, lodging, and medical assistance, they might be deemed objects of envy to half the peasantry of Europe. … At the same time let it not be forgotten, that the legislative authority in many of the sugar islands, has been, and still is, most humanely and laudably exerted in exalting the condition of the slave in all respects, and circumscribing the power of the master. . . . That the narratives therefore of excessive whippings, and barbarous mutilations, which have lately awakened the sympathy of the publick, are all of them absolutely false; — though it has been asserted by others shall not be asserted by me. If they have happened but seldom , they have happened too often.
    The difference between me, and those who, on this ground, continue to urge the necessity of an immediate and total suppression of the slave trade, is this: they assert that it is not unfrequent, but common , the occurrence of every hour, to behold the miserable Negroes fall victims to a series of cruelties of which no other age or country affords an example; and they maintain that the planters in general are guilty of these cruelties, without commiseration or remorse. I, on the other hand, aver that, although such enormities have certainly sometimes happened, and may happen again, yet that the general treatment of the Negroes in the British West Indies is mild, temperate, and indulgent; and that instances of cruelty are not only rare, but always universally reprobated when discovered; and when susceptible of legal proof, severely punished.”

    The author then cites instances of the punishment of white slave-owners for offences against their slaves. Amongst others are the following:—

    Jamaica, 1777: Thomas Fell found guilty of an assault on a negro slave and sentenced to pay a fine of £20, and to be imprisoned in the common jail one week, and until payment of the fine.

    Jamaica, 1786: George Geddes was found guilty of cruelly beating and maiming two slaves, and was sentenced to a fine of £100 for each slave, and to be imprisoned for six months, and afterward to find securities for his good behavior.

    Grenada, 1776: A white man (name not given) was convicted of the murder of his own slave, and executed. “

    • Thanks: Kali, Philip Owen
  53. Enoch Powell warned them.

  54. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    [black violence] Must be due to racism, because to think it would have anything to do with genetics is just something too odious to consider.

    In fact, there is a reason to attribute differences in crime rate between Europeans and Africans to genetics.

    Africans have, from the dawn of mankind, lived in relatively small tribal groups. Under such conditions there is a huge reproductive advantage to being the head man or chief, which is to say the guy who gets the girls. That means there is a huge reproductive payoff to the resort to risky violence if it offers the chance of grabbing the the alpha male spot.

    For Europeans, however, other than princes of the realm and others close to the throne, the rule of law and the Christian rule of monogamy has meant that male on male violence was more likely to lead to the gallows than reproductive advantage. Due to this difference in the consequences of violence, one would expect Africans to be more violent than Europeans. Likewise, one might expect the tribalized highland Scots, from whom my own ancestors derive, to be more violent than lowland Scots and English, which is consistent with the reputation of highlanders.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @lavoisier
  55. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    The violent reputation of the Scottish Highlanders followed them to the New World where, in the US Southern states, the high prevalence of homicides has been attributed to settlement by herders from the fringes of Britain in the 18th century.

    • Replies: @anon
  56. anon[235] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s suggested that African Americans were exposed to this Scots culture in the South and this had a further cultural imprint on their behavior in the United States.

    They AREN’T Highlanders. They are descended from lowland Scots on the border country with Northern England who moved to Ulster Ireland.

    Highland Scots never moved to Northern Ireland.

  57. Wielgus says:
    @Philip Owen

    Even in 1749 or thereabouts, harsh commanders in the British Army ordering floggings could provoke negative and satirical comment.

    Robert Rich had a hand severed by a Jacobite claymore at Culloden in 1746. Perhaps he took it out on his own troops in the Fourth of Foot, who had had the heaviest casualties in the government army at that battle.

  58. In Russia, we study the Anglo-Saxon world with great interest. And as we understand it, British society has a hidden semi-caste structure. The behavior of grassroots members of society is honed almost at the genetic level, because the history of Britain is very interesting. For example, when we had Ivan the Terrible in Russia, there was a period of incomparable slaughter in Britain. And in our time, the idea of diluting grassroots society with embers with a completely different mentality upsets the balance of extremely long-term rejection шь this part of society.

  59. dearieme says:

    when we had Ivan the Terrible in Russia, there was a period of incomparable slaughter in Britain

    “Grand Prince of Moscow from 1533 to 1547 and the first Tsar of Russia from 1547 to 1584”

    So no; figment of your Slavic imagination. Or, rather, of the presumably non-Slavic imagination of whoever is faking being from Russia.

  60. @dearieme

    Henry VIII and Elizabeth both had trouble in the North but not incomparable slaughter. The Wars of the Roses were bad. The aristocrats killed each other off. However, they ended in 1485. England avoided wars between Catholics and Protestants. A few bishops were burnt or beheaded on either side, mostly Catholics burning Protestants but that was all. There were local rebellions that were repressed by killing whole communities, innocent killed along with guilty but nothing more. For example, this happened in some parts of Lancashire (a big county in the North) that stayed Catholic until now.

  61. @Anonymous

    Though I go to England quite often I have not been able to do the extensive social survey that you implicitly claim to have done. So, to see what credit I should give to your observations, I start with looking up the stats and find that only 3 per cent of the population is black and that includes the very different Africans with aspiration as well as Jamaican ancestry layabouts. Then I note that I observe no copying of any version of black culture in the parts of London where I often take long walks.Nor do I have to worry about walking a mile back from the Tube at midnight. But I note that you have experience of the native working class that I obviously lack. Tell us about your observations. My impression is that even the one time fashion for Etonians and others of the upper middle class to drop their art he’s in imitation of (white) Essex man has died.

    And yes, I did notice your use of “urban”.

  62. @dearieme

    Historians estimate the total number of victims of Ivan the terrible’s repressions at 4,000-4,500. The task that he set to replace the aristocracy with something smaller and more manageable. For Russia at that time, creating a layer in the style of gentry was not real. And the scale of repression was not particularly large for such a task.

  63. lavoisier says: • Website

    Interesting ideas here. Thank you for presenting them.

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