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Frank Sinatra vs the Boomers
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I’ve never been a fan of Frank Sinatra or any popular singer/ musician of the 20th century prior to the advent of Rock. I much prefer 19th century music, such as Civil War songs, to much of 20th century popular music. I can appreciate the talent of men like Gershwin, Armstrong, Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, Kahn, Porter, and etc. I can see how certain artists/entertainers were seminal in some way and highly influential, even on Rock, but have a hard time tuning into their sensibility. (Likewise, despite the wonders of Old Hollywood, movies for me really begins in the 1950s, especially with World Cinema.) This extends even to Rock n Roll. Notice how young people today are interested in Rock Music going back to the 60s, but young people in the 1970s hardly listened to anything prior to the 50s/60s. It suggests a continual musical culture for around seventy years, from early 60s to now, with the decisive break having taken place somewhere in the 50s. I don’t recall any of my friends showing any interest in Elvis or 50s Rock n Roll. As for Sinatra and the like, that was considered grandpa’s music.

Plenty of music critics and scholars have heaped praise on Frank Sinatra. Some even claim he was the greatest American singer of the 20th century. Personally, if I had to play old style music, I’d rather listen to Andy Williams, Tony Bennett, and Bobby Darin, to be sure, a rather slippery figure to categorize. If I have a soft spot for a crooner, it’s Engelbert Humperdinck. And some black singers managed to combine more classic styles with the trendier tempos: Lou Rawls especially with “You’ll Never Find”.

Still, one can understand Sinatra’s towering place in 20th century music. More than most performers of his kind, he was able to grow and change while, at the same time, remaining true to his essence. He aged like wine, culminating in “Strangers in the Night” in 1966, perhaps his greatest song. Also, while other singers had prettier voices, his had a richness, a gently intoxicating quality like a glass of rum.

To the best of my knowledge, there was no overt boomer hostility against Sinatra. He just wasn’t on their radar. Besides, even before the arrival of Beatlemania followed by Counterculture, Sinatra had been knocked down a few pegs by Elvis Presley and other Rock n Rollers. There was a sort of the Return of the Italians in the early 60s, but it was composed mostly of Teen Idols like Frankie Avalon. Sinatra had by then become an institution but wasn’t really culturally relevant, just like John Wayne continued to make movies into the 1970s but as a nostalgia act; Clint Eastwood was the one changing movie culture.

Though initially critical of Rock n Roll and Elvis the Pelvis, Sinatra understood the times had changed, and there was the famous duet of him and Presley on TV in 1960. Girls screamed for Sinatra but went crazy for the King of Rock n Roll. (The scene in DINER about Sinatra vs Johnny Mathis shows how Elvis could still be scandalous to those who came of age on the eve of the Rock Era. When Mickey Rourke’s character says he prefers Elvis to both Sinatra and Mathis, he is rebuked as ‘sick’.)

And yet, one might argue Sinatra-ism won out over Elvis-ism. Once the novelty(and shock value) of Rock n Roll wore off, what was there but professionalism? Indeed, Elvis Presley himself abandoned his earlier style and morphed into a performer much like Sinatra. He became a Las Vegas act. One might even say Sinatra-ism won out over Dylan-ism. Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock, but once the artistic well ran dry, again, what was left but professionalism? For good or ill, one of the biggest acts around is Adele who is above all a professional.

There was clearly an ethnic angle to the Sinatra phenomenon. It’s usually the case that kids from underprivileged backgrounds try their luck in sports and entertainment. Italian-Americans, who lagged other white ethnic groups, were over-represented in sports and music. There was Joe DiMaggio in baseball. Rocky Marciano and Jake LaMotta in boxing. And lots of singers. But, the Italian-American role in Popular Music may also have owed to a rich cultural heritage. Italians had opera and lots of colorful folk tunes, though a lot of this got watered down for Anglo-American tastes(like what Chef Boyardee is to Italian Cooking). Paradoxically, precisely because the Italians were so rich in musical heritage, they may have missed the boat, relatively speaking, in the boomer Sixties given to novelty and experimentalism. To some degree, this was also true of blacks. Though blacks played a huge role in 60s musical culture, they were overshadowed in the second half of the decade in terms of innovation and originality. Blacks, awfully proud of their own styles, mostly stuck to soulful or bluesy standards while White Rock pushed the envelope into new amazing directions, with additional inspirations from surprising sources, even Hindu music. During this period, Jimi Hendrix and Arthur Lee(of Love) were outliers. Indeed, Ellen Willis the female rock critic described Hendrix’s output as part of ‘White Rock’. In contrast, the British, not known for a great musical heritage, eagerly adopted whatever seemed exciting and ran with it, producing the revolutionary sounds of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, the Kinks, and others. And Led Zeppelin combined hard blues with Wagnerian operatics. Without much of a musical pride of their own, the Brits took to the new frontier with passion. Those without spices of their own are more likely to try new spices. No wonder Anglos suddenly became the biggest ‘foodies’ around the world.

Perhaps, Italian-Americans felt they had an excess of musical culture/color. Also, the Italian style was more complementary with Jazz, a combo of brass, sass, and class. Though Jazz culture could be lurid and kinky, it was also about dressing well and looking stylish, thus appealing to Italian-Americans. (In MEAN STREETS, even lowlife street hoods wear proper attire.) Italian-American community may have leaned Democratic and politically liberal but remained culturally conservative, with greater emphasis on family, clan, and community. And the Church. So, the Rock Culture that defined the boomer generation could be a turn-off. Even the Rascals, perhaps the best Italian-American rock band of the Sixties, had more of a sentimental attachment to established musical genres. Their best song, “How Can I Be Sure” has an Old World flavor.

Rock n Roll may have been more amenable to Italian-American culture. Though low and crass, its aggression made for tribal mentality, the kind in WEST SIDE STORY. So, even if Rock n Rollers didn’t mean their music to be street gang music, it went well with leather jackets and switch blades. The Jets vs the Sharks.

Rock Culture, in contrast, was about love and peace(even as some of the music got louder and crazier). The new tribalism was really an anti-tribalism, about flower power and grass than fists and turf. No wonder the Rock n Roll kid in I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND(Robert Zemeckis comedy about the arrival of Beatlemania in America) hates the Fab Four whose joyousness negate the machismo of Rock n Roll. And THE WANDERERS(directed by Philip Kaufman) ends with an Italian-American kid in the early Sixties ruefully gazing at the dawning of the Folk Music scene(that would have a profound impact on Counterculture).

Not that Frank Sinatra was about tribal hostility. Politically, he went out of his way to oppose racial discrimination against blacks. In Hollywood, he made a not-very-good but rather surprising WWII movie that treated Japanese soldiers with a degree of sympathy: NONE BUT THE BRAVE.

Still, Sinatra wouldn’t have been nothing without distinctions. The private life was not to be confused with the public life. There was professionalism and amateurism. One had to dress for the occasion. The stars took the stage or screen, and the audience remained in the seats. (To be sure, during the height of Sinatra-mania, a harbinger of bigger manias to come, things did get out of control with the girls.) The Italian-American community was more prone to feeling that way. Italian-Americans had more a culture of respect for the elders, cultural if not always familial. If the likes of Sinatra and Dean Martin set the standards, those were ones worthy of emulation. (If Dean Martin seems somewhat out of place in RIO BRAVO, it has less to do with his Italian-ness than his plain cowboy clothes. It was Sergio Leone and the Spaghetti Westerns that really added style to the Western genre.) Martin Scorsese once remarked that Sixties culture was so different from the Italian-American community he knew. His ethnic enclave was, at the time, insular and indifferent to vast socio-cultural changes happening all around. Later, when an Italian-American became the prominent face of popular music, it was John Travolta in SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER. Though disco was hardly Italian-ish, it was about dressing up and spending inordinate amount of time on one’s hair.

Though hardly a fan of Sinatra, what he stands for has special meaning for me on account of two movies. Indeed, these two movies illustrate the special standing Sinatra has in American Cultural History despite the profound changes stemming from the boomer era. These are not the well-known Sinatra movies like FROM HERE TO ETERNITY or THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, or one of the several musicals he made. Rather, Sinatra-ism stands out in precisely because the films are about the world in the process of boomer transformation.

The first is BABY IT’S YOU(story by Amy Robinson), the only truly great film by John Sayles, an intelligent director who marred most of his works with nods to social significance. Who the hell wants do-goody Peter-Seegerism in movies? BABY IT’S YOU is the exception and may well be, along with DINER, the best movie about young people in the 1980s. John Hughes dominated the youth movie market in the 1980s by pandering to the lowest common denominator, but the decade’s two best movies about youth are set in late 50s and mid-60s and based on personal memories. BABY IT’S YOU is about Jill, an upper-middle-class Jewish student majoring in drama. She’s headed to some elite college full of Wasps and Jewish girls from affluent families like her own, but in her final year of high school, attracts the attention of some Italian-American guy know as the ‘Sheik'(like Rudolph Valentino). While the times are changing, the guy is resolutely old school when it comes to dress, hair(oily), and style. In contrast, Jill is attuned to the newest trends in the arts and culture. She wants to fit in with the Zeitgeist.

It all comes to a head when both their illusions go up in smoke. He was so infatuated with instant stardom that he never realized that success owes to natural talent + hard work + luck. It doesn’t just fall at your feet because you dress well and have high self-esteem. He thought he’d become a star in music even though he can’t sing because he’s got the looks and is liked by tourists in sunny Florida. It never seems to have occurred to him that Sinatra had real talent and worked extremely hard at it, not least because he wasn’t so hot in the looks department. Without musical talent, would Sinatra have made it in the movies or been noticed by women?

As for Jill, she saw herself as leaving behind her humdrum middle class milieu and seeking authenticity as an artist, but she’s overly sensitive to peer perception and follows every new trend. They meet again, probably for the last time, in their painful moments of self-realization. Still, before they bid farewell and go separate ways, they share a final moment on the college dance floor. Though a psychedelic band plays the gig, they take his ‘weird'(because ‘square’) request to play “Strangers in the Night” by Sinatra. Other students, who’d been rocking to the latest music, seem bemused but slowly ease into the mood of Ole Blue Eyes.

The final part of BABY IT’S YOU could be a corrective realism to THE GRADUATE, actually a fantasy. Benjamin manages a fairytale ending as he runs off with Elaine Robinson, but there is no pie in the sky for Jill and the Sheik. And that everyone begins to dance to Sinatra, their parents’ music, is suggestive of what Mike Nichols said about the two elopers: They will end up like their parents.

The meanings are threefold. For the Italian-American Sheik, it’s his final gift to the girl. He’s back in the image that caught her eye in the first place, in high school where, unlike the other boys, he dressed in style and moved with confidence. For her, he plays that role one more time. But, it is also what he will always be. Despite the loss of illusion — he’s not cut out for stardom — and a future like his old man’s(blue collar work), he can always take pride in looking good and dressing well. In a way, this was Sinatra’s gift to the men of his generation. At the very least, no matter however humdrum their station in life, they could look a bit classy by taking pointers from men like Sinatra.

For Jill, the song speaks a timeless truth. At every moment in her life, she met boys and girls with whom she thought she’d bond forever, but ultimately, they are all like strangers in the night, especially in modern and mobile America. Just like she drifted apart from her high school friends, she will forget her college friends. And even though, for a time, she fell for the Sheik as the love of her life, they are incompatible in so many ways and must go separate ways. The Counterculture said the Moment is everything. Summer of Love will change the world and what’s happening now is what really matters. In contrast, “Strangers in the Night” is resigned to the timeless truth that life goes on, strangers become lovers, lovers become strangers. The song was both reassuringly old in style and a departure for Sinatra. In its air of alienation and detachment, it could even be ‘cool’ and ‘hip’ by the standards of the day. Not quite 007 but the new face of Sinatra who, unlike many of his peers, was capable of change, walking the fine line between nostalgia and fashion. It’s also a song that only an aged voice could have pulled off.

The other memorable Boomer/Sinatra moment is in LOST IN AMERICA. The movie has a contemporaneous setting. It’s the yuppie eighties, and David Howard(Albert Brooks, who also wrote and directed) is a thoroughly status-and-material-obsessed professional in advertising. But when denied the promotion he’d been dreaming of, he decides to give a big middle finger to upper class aspirations. Ironically, it’s not because he’s put off by excess materialism but because his ascendancy isn’t fast enough. His principled stance is the perverse product of his thwarted ambition.

As a ‘bold’ gesture to prove to the world and himself that he’s no longer in the rat race, he embarks on a late-blooming quest to search for America, what the guys supposedly did in EASY RIDER. The first notable song in the movie as he and his wife drive out of the city in a Winnebago is the 60s rocker “Born to be Wild” by Steppenwolf. But these two, who ostensibly want to ‘touch Indians’, decide to spend a night in Las Vegas where the wife, in a fit of wild abandon, gambles away all their ‘nest egg’. Of course, Las Vegas is more Sinatra-ville than Hippie-stan. (The Sixties became associated with great events, like Woodstock. But events come and go, whereas industries like Las Vegas remain.) And, what can be more crass and materialistic than gambling? And yet, her loss of inhibition could be regarded an expression of the Sixties spirit. After all, the message of Counterculture was to liberate yourself from traditional notions of responsibility and do what comes naturally. And so, the couple is faced with a conundrum. She acted ‘liberated’ and, as a result, lost all their money to Big Capital, the enemy. In contrast, he insisted on prudence so as to maintain the conceit of their ‘liberation’. Indeed, he is later forced to admit that the guys in EASY RIDER could pull it off only because they were, after all, supply-and-demand capitalists who sold drugs and stashed away the cash in a safe place.

But without the nest egg and without high-paying jobs, Howard decides to make the best of it… that is until, in the role as school crossing-guard, he gazes at a Mercedes Benz(with seats of leather apparently, perhaps a warped allusion to the Holocaust and human lamp-shades). Then and there, all the illusions vanish into the air, and the couple is driving across America to none other than the Big Apple to Sinatra’s rendition of “New York, New York”, which like “Strangers in the Night” was both old school and relatively new(as the song came out only in 1977 with the release of Martin Scorsese’s movie).

All this reminds me of a scene in Oliver Stone’s NIXON. It’s near the very end when Anthony Hopkin’s Nixon, upon signing the letter of resignation, finds himself alone with the portrait of JFK. He mutters, “When they look at you, they see what they want to be. When they look at me, they see what they are.” With the passage of years, the generation that wanted to regard themselves as the messianic John Lennon of “Imagine” ended up more like Frank Sinatra. Now, any comparison of Sinatra and Nixon may seem absurd as Sinatra was a big star whereas Nixon was considered unpleasant in look and style. Yet, Sinatra’s stardom was somewhat unlikely because he really didn’t look that good. Apart from his success in singing, his stardom owed to luck and connections. He played the game and was tainted by corruption.

In a way, it’s difficult to imagine a cultural figure as multi-faceted and multi-involved as Sinatra, especially when compared with the big stars of the Sixties. Among boomer youth, there was a saying, “Don’t trust anyone over thirty”. That meant, ideally at any rate, the Rock artists shouldn’t involve themselves too closely with business. They should just make personal music. (Or engage in business in a utopian manner, like the Beatles with Apple Corp after Brian Epstein’s death; it turned into one big fiasco. Another ideal was to put on free concerts, like the Rolling Stones at Altamont. Another fiasco.) Also, even if boomers were politically engaged, the ideal was to remain clear of the bastions of power and privilege. Protest against the Man, don’t be part of the Man’s structure(until Saul Alinsky advised otherwise).

As such, many of the key musical figures of the Rock Era had limited involvement with the real world. In contrast, Sinatra was engaged in many areas. Not only did he make it in music but he became a movie star. He was also associated with gangsters who reputedly helped his career a few times, which became the basis of Johnny Fontaine in THE GODFATHER, another reminder of what the boomers really became. He also played the role of middleman between the mafia and politicians. Though he came to prominence in more ‘innocent’ times(before the crazy Sixties) — it’s as if US went from less innocence to more naivete —, he was more comfortable with compromise and corruption as ways of the world. Yet, despite all this, he too fell under the illusion that he was on the side of angels because he supported the right causes(such as Civil Rights) and became close with Mr. Camelot John F. Kennedy. His sins would be washed away with the right connections. But then, the Kennedy brothers turned against the mafia(that had helped rig the election), and Sinatra found himself on the outside. It wasn’t long before he was supporting Ronald Reagan as governor and Nixon for president. He had truly become the Chairman of the Board. He also got entangled with the likes of Mia Farrow.

Boomer hippies romanticized about going back to nature, as if Fountain of Youth was waiting for them in the New Eden of Woodstock. After three days, Woodstock became a disaster zone. And, eking out a living from trees and dirt was no cakewalk. In the end, real potential was in the cities that Sinatra sang about: Chicago, his kind of town, and San Francisco, where he left his heart. And of course, New York, to which Albert Brooks is headed in LOST IN AMERICA. Blacks sure gained more from moving to cities than American Indians did by remaining in rural reservations.

Sinatra’s signature song was perhaps “My Way”, which is loaded with the contradiction that, to do it your way, you must join the company. Boomer ideal was to be personal, authentic, true to oneself without compromise. But just about all boomers who ended up doing anything became the suits. Perhaps a timeless truth about the nature of power, one which the boomers thought they could finally cast aside, only to end up, like Albert Brooks in LOST IN AMERICA, discovering the Real America by heading back to the city with high rises, high-paying jobs, and connections that matter. George Lucas built an empire independent of Hollywood and did it his way… only to churn out very Hollywood-ish movies playing to age-old conventions of pleasing the crowd. And he sold his personal dream to Disney.

One of the reasons Sinatra fell out of favor in the Sixties was that, despite his political credentials of being a good progressive, he had ties to the mafia. This didn’t jibe well with the New Frontier thinking of the Kennedy era and beyond. And yet, fast forward to today, and the Power Boomers no longer need to be associated with the mafia because they are gangsters or gangstoids themselves. In a way, Michael Corleone was naive about going legitimate and turning away from organized crime. There’s a better way: Legalize the criminal vices, and all that was once illegit becomes legit. Just like that. With gambling legalized just about everywhere, we are living in Sinatrapolis. And given the state of US foreign policy as dictated by Jewish boomers, the old mafia seem like small potatoes, hopeless amateurs. In 2020, the system cynically employed black thugs and Antifa to burn down cities just to gain a few percentage points in the black vote and to embarrass Trump. And Big Pharma has proven to be a global-gangster operation under the Covid Regimen: They made the world an offer it can’t refuse.

And yet, triumphalism isn’t what Sinatra-ism is about. Even in the song, “My Way”, there is a note of melancholy and resignation as well as pride and defiance. It’s not about a man who always got to do things his way and feels exultant. Rather, it has the sound of man who betrayed or abandoned so many dreams but still managed to make it to the finish line and keep something to call his own. It’s more a song of survival than victory. And especially his later songs are more about the mood after-the-party than during it. A sense that no matter how intense the moment, it will burn out and lights will dim and life will go on as it always has. That is the beauty and sadness of BABY IT’S YOU’s final moment, and maybe a saving grace for the boomers as well.

 
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  1. You are a childish retard. If you don’t know anything, that’s a good time to write.

    • Agree: Emslander
    • Disagree: Badger Down
    • Thanks: Sollipsist
    • Troll: Eric Novak
  2. Franz says:

    Sinatra has only one serious connection to most postwar youth: He threw a noisy “retirement” party in 1970. He said, THAT’S IT! Then he went back to work for the next 25 years. Large numbers of workers in industry lost their pensions and went back to work and still are. But I still wouldn’t trust an 84 year old Uber driver.

    Sinatra made “My Way” famous and then Elvis made it part of his act. Oedipal?

    We can prove that many youngsters in the 60s did not care about the age gap: When Sinatra’s daughter Nancy had a string of bubble gum rock hits, Daddy Frank would sometimes show up on stage to everyone’s happy amazement. One of our old sound men (RIP) said it happened fairly often and that Frank was a pretty good egg about playing second fiddle to Nancy. Overall, he was a very confident fellow.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    , @Che Guava
  3. D. K. says:
    @Franz

    Sinatra retired in 1971, and his intended swan song was merely a performance at an already-scheduled film-industry benefit; he did not throw himself “a noisy ‘retirement’ party in 1970”:

    https://letterboxd.com/film/frank-sinatra-the-retirement-concert/

    He resumed his recording career, two years later, with “Ol’ Blue Eyes Is Back”:

    One of my older brothers (b. 1948) and one of our cousins (b. 1950) were big Sinatra fans, dating from at least the early 1960s. When I (b. 1956) belatedly switched from vinyl LPs to music CDs, I also switched from mostly collecting rockers to mostly collecting crooners, with Sinatra far and away the most collected artist by me.

    • Replies: @Franz
  4. Trelane says:

    Music is for listening, not talking about.

    • LOL: InnerCynic
    • Replies: @Angharad
  5. Anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:

    Help me out here: when did Dylan’s “artistic well” “run dry”?

    a Mercedes Benz(with seats of leather apparently, perhaps a warped allusion to the Holocaust and human lamp-shades)

    Or perhaps the author is an idiot. The Nazis didn’t invent leather.

    Sinatra in his youth was good looking. Have you seen later Elvis?

    Jesus fucking wept.

  6. Rock sucks, but this guy calling Dylan the greatest of rock is hilarious. Dylan was the worst of rock. Worst, most monotonous, worst tunes and especially, THE worst voice the other side of Fogarty. Worst read on music I ever wasted 5 minutes on.

    Frank sucked, too.

  7. Mark G. says:

    I agree that the Boomers did not feel a lot of hostility to Sinatra because he was mostly off their radar. The same thing was true of a lot of other musical artists that the pre-Boomer generation listened to. I can remember in the sixties my uncle telling me that Benny Goodman was better than the Beatles. I know who Benny Goodman is now but at the time I didn’t have the faintest notion who he was. I couldn’t be hostile to someone when I was oblivious to his existence.

    It also helped that Sinatra didn’t show a lot of hostility to Boomer music. The author of this article mentions his duet with Presley and a previous commenter mentions Sinatra showing up on stage with his popular daughter Nancy. He even sang a Beatles song, “Something”, and praised them. He didn’t know a lot about their music, since he said “Something” was the best song Lennon and McCartney ever wrote, but wasn’t hostile to it.

    Some of the other pre-Boomer musical icons tried to be hip with the kids beside Sinatra. Even more bizarre than the Sinatra and Presley duet was the later Bing and Bowie duet. Others, though, couldn’t hide their disdain. After the Rolling Stones appeared on the Dean Martin show, Martin came out on stage, said “aren’t they great” and then rolled his eyes. He then launched into a series of lame jokes about their long hair. The antagonism that Martin and his ilk showed towards the Boomers musical tastes was reciprocated by the Boomers.

  8. D. K. says:
    @Mark G.

    “It also helped that Sinatra didn’t show a lot of hostility to Boomer music.”

    ***

    The famed crooner, writing in the magazine Western World published here, praised the influence of American jazz and popular music as a way of winning friends and influencing people throughout the world.

    “My only deep sorrow,” he said, “is the unrelenting insistence of recording and motion picture companies upon purveying the most brutal, ugly, degenerate, vicious form of expression it has been my displeasure to hear—naturally I refer to the bulk of rock ‘n’ roll.

    “It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people. It smells phony and false. It is sung, played and written for the most part by cretinous goons and by means of its almost imbecilic reiterations and sly, lewd—in plain fact dirty—lyrics, and as I said before, it manages to be the martial music of every sideburned delinquent on the face of the earth.

    “This rancid smelling aphrodisiac I deplore. But, in spite of it, the contribution of American music to the world could be said to have one of the healthiest effects of all our contributions.”

    ***

    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/07/13/rock-degenerate/

    “After the Rolling Stones appeared on the Dean Martin show, Martin came out on stage, said ‘aren’t they great’ and then rolled his eyes. He then launched into a series of lame jokes about their long hair. The antagonism that Martin and his ilk showed towards the Boomers musical tastes was reciprocated by the Boomers.”

    Dean Paul Martin, Jr., of course, was the leading edge of the modestly successful rock band Dino, Desi & Billy:

  9. Franz says:
    @D. K.

    Sinatra retired in 1971

    Someone should clarify his wiki page, which makes it seem he made the decision in 1970:

    On November 2, 1970, Sinatra recorded the last songs for Reprise Records before his self-imposed retirement,[272] announced the following June at a concert in Hollywood to raise money for the Motion Picture and TV Relief Fund

    That’s muddy. Sounds like he ordered up his pension in November but didn’t make it public for almost eight months.

  10. Angharad says:

    I think this is the stupidest, most tone deaf…thing…that has EVER been posted on the Internet.

    Or anywhere.

    Saint Francis of Sinatra is the BEST singer that has ever lived.

    Period.

    The End.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Svevlad
  11. Angharad says:
    @Trelane

    Thank you. That was a brief moment of pure bliss.

  12. Rambling and sometimes barely coherent. Anal incontinent, not anal retentive.But what did I expect from someone writing as Jung-Freud. Psychoanalysis ceased being intellectually respectable in the 1960s, and there has been very little interest since, not even from millenials.

    • Agree: ariadna
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    , @acementhead
  13. anonymous[146] • Disclaimer says:

    The most historic, profound play of Sinatra’s ‘My Way’, was 9am East Coast US time 20 January 2021, as Air Force One taxi’d down the runway and then took off from Andrews, in Donald Trump’s final flight as President, leaving Washington DC to go home to Florida and be President no more. There was no better swan song for the end of the Trump era, marking the end of the old USA … there were tears in the eyes of millions watching and listening to this



    Video Link
    It’s worth listening to just how good young Frank Sinatra was … here he is in 1942 with Tommy Dorsey’s orchestra … ‘I like potato chips, moonlight and motor trips … How about you?’

    • Agree: Angharad
    • Replies: @Angharad
  14. I used to not like Sinatra when I was young although I always liked the 30’s and 40’s big band music. As I got older and more sophisticated I started to appreciate the mellow crooners like Sinatra, Crosby, Bennett, Como and Martino. I could never appreciate the post 90’s crooners like Buble and Connick, they just don’t have that classic sound any more.

  15. Thomasina says:

    “In contrast, the British, not known for a great musical heritage, eagerly adopted whatever seemed exciting and ran with it, producing the revolutionary sounds of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, the Kinks, and others. And Led Zeppelin…”

    But they do have the Irish, and therein lies the music. Paul McCartney (in fact all of the Beatles) have Irish ancestry.

    Bob Dylan was “the greatest artist of Rock”? Some good songs (Lay Lady Lay, Like a Rolling Stone), but the greatest? Not by a long shot.

    Continual greatness over time (like Messi) is what makes an artist. Sinatra did that.

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Priss Factor
  16. Dumbo says:

    The article was too long and the “Freud-Jung” pseudonym is idiotic, so I didn’t read it. But Sinatra was a good singer, if nothing else. But I preferred Dean Martin, he had the humour that Sinatra lacked. But both are kinda kitsch.

    Bob Dylan, except for a few songs in one or two early albums (Blonde on blonde, Blood on the tracks), is mostly a fraud. Awful voice, awful performer. As a lyricist, fellow Jew Leonard Cohen was much better.

    According to Joni Mitchell (also a better lyricist), Dylan’s a plagiarist too.

    (But the best modern lyricist was probably Kris Kristofferson, in his early albums.)

    • Replies: @Tlotsi
    , @loren
  17. Rich says:

    Bob Dylan could not have been the “greatest artist of Rock” because he never was much of a rocker. He was a folk singer, then a folk rocker. Trying to listen to any of his ridiculous songs now is more grating than trying to listen to Simon and Garfunkel. Even the Beatles and the Rolling Stones sound played out, the Beatles more, a few of the more obscure Stones tracks are okay. Meanwhile Sinatra and Martin stand the test of time. They had real, quality musicians and professional song writers. Maybe that’s the difference? Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Chopin and the rest of that classical music style goes on forever, the greatest musical achievements of mankind. We’ve really fallen.

  18. I love Frank Sinatra, but his rendition of “Mrs. Robinson” is one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

  19. Woodsie says:

    How can anyone write about Frank and the sixties without mentioning Tony Rome? For a brief moment, not repeated in the sequel or the similar The Detective character, here is the Great Sinatra knowingly past his prime. No longer hip, instead world-weary and self-aware. He jokes about not getting laid, says without rancor or irony that the femme fatale is “outta my league.”

    • Replies: @Z-man
  20. Hibernian says:

    This piece contains a lot of totally unsupported personal opinion (granted, in a highly subjective field) and also ethnic stereotyping. And it is tediously long.

    • Agree: loren
  21. @obwandiyag

    Harsh language for an ill-explained point.

    The psychology and social politics described here are sound.

  22. Sinatra sang, or as my grandma used to say talked, lol (she was not a fan), about the everyday problems that most people experience and he did it in a serious and sympathetic way.

    • Agree: Angharad
  23. @Rich

    The greatest artist of rock is probably Elton John.

    No, that’s not an endorsement of his lifestyle; rather, the fact that someone with his reprehensible lifestyle can still be rock’s greatest artist is more of a blanket condemnation of rock as a genre. But his multi-decade career, full of hit songs that remain broadly listenable to across several generations, kind of stands out as a singular accomplishment. Not even the Beatles, the Stones, or Elvis achieved that degree of cultural relevance.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    , @Tlotsi
    , @ivan
  24. Alden says:
    @Jim Christian

    Dylan hideously ugly ugly face from a nightmare. . Horrible screechy voice. His early songs ripped off from The Anthology of American Folk Music. Ok I guess, public domain.

    Question. Did he get a permanent to negrofy his frizzy hair? . Friend who became husband loved Dylan. Played his screeching all the time in the car. Oh well, no one’s perfect.
    Parents didn’t have any Sinatra records. Mostly show tunes and all the great musicals. Mom lived them.

    This article is extremely naive. Other than old time and early country western The music industry is incredibly corrupt. Back in the day it was all arranged by the record companies radio disk jockeys and bribes, not by any consensus of fans.

    There were a lot of phone tree callers. People, like college students guys in the military were paid to call in to radio stations and request certain records. First one would call ten others to call the radio stations. Each of those ten called ten others. And soon the record was top of the charts. The phone tree guys would recruit others. Easy way to make some cash. Just sit on the phone for a couple hours calling local radio stations

    Plus record companies had guys running around big market towns with wads of cash buying up records. And selling them back to the shops. Supposedly Michael Jackson paid disk jockeys to not play his brothers music. And paid distributors and record stores to dump his brothers records., Common practice in the corrupt American music industry.

    I remember at some point MoTown was considered the most honest least corrupt company in the music industry. Along with some of the old time Appalachian music companies. Didn’t cheat the artists too badly.

  25. Alden says:
    @Thomasina

    American music, aka old timey Appalachian southern confederate country western is Irish music too. Listen to Rally Round the Bonnie Blue Flag. It’s a basic Irish jig.

    Interesting that Germans were the largest ethnic group and very musical. But they were often city people and built classical concert halls. And organized amateur choirs. And built great instruments in factories. But the Appalachian Folk. If they couldn’t build an instrument they just clapped their hands sang and danced.

    Copperhead Road 200 years ago Pattimores built this town. Brewed whiskey revenuers chased us up and down. 2 tours a duty in Vietnam. Came home with a different plan. Bought some Columbian seeds mixed with Mexican weed. Now DEA helicopters roaring over head.

    • Replies: @Thomasina
  26. Mr. Ed says:

    ‘Strangers in the night’ was Sinatra’s greatest? God, the author of this is dumb!!!

  27. Thomasina says:
    @Rich

    Agree re Bob Dylan, he was a folk singer. Paul Simon was a good songwriter; excellent lyrics. Stones are sexy, make you want to move. None of the others you listed do that. Sinatra and Martin were in a league of their own as far as vocals. Great arrangements and orchestral backing, yes, but they both had tremendous style and timing.

    McCartney is interesting, though. Young, optimistic, playful, a carnival atmosphere to many of his earlier songs. But he did get more sophisticated. Have a listen to Live and Let Die again, the change-ups. Well done. And Eleanor Rigby lends itself easily to an orchestral arrangement, as do many of his later songs. For a person who never learned to read or write music, he is exceptional.

    Here’s Cody Fry’s symphony version of Eleanor Rigby:

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
  28. botazefa says:

    OT and apropos of nothing, with all apologies to the moderator.

    The evil face of the woke mobs currently rewriting our language such that a misses is a they, or a man is a woman, or an SUV is an entity that murders paraders needs a name.

    The opponent(s) must be identified.

    Chan-Zuckerberg is a candidate for the face of the opposition. A very good candidate couple. This is the team that literally has the near constant attention of a startling percentage of the cherished 18 to 40 market group. And members in that group with high socio-economic standing are even more engaged, as are women generally. Think about how many hours a day you or your wife is trolling instagram vs reading. How many years of that habit before people literally believe that Kyle Rittenhouse crossed state lines to murder peaceful Black BLM peaceful protesters?

    Those suffering the disease of social media addiction use it to the exclusion of other hobbies and develop a warped world view consistent with whatever algorithmic matrix delivered their infotainment. Throw in lockdowns and work from home and, well one can see what happens with addicts in isolation. They slowly lose track of reality and go mad.

    These people are social media’s customers. Like oxycontin, their value is their addiction. They lose interest in sex and marriage. They pile on trendy woke memes in order to cash in on the powerful high that ‘likes’ provide.

    And Congress doesn’t care.

    These people don’t watch TV or cable news. MSNBC’s audience is 50 and older. Complacent and afraid of being called a racist and catching covid. Neutered.

    And Congress doesn’t care.

    Our young and ambitious get all their news about the world from Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. Some read the Times or Slate. Few read Revolver or City-Journal or even understand the concept of substack.

    That’s a lot of gullible eyes on Zuckerberg’s platform. He’s watching us. Who is whispering in his ear?

    The Deep State?

    Someone prove to me that Zuckerberg-Chan doesn’t present a clear and present danger. If i’ve not filled-out my thesis completely, it is only because it all seems very obvious.

    US citizens and fans have reason to be angry. They’ve been fucking us all at least since that banal Wall Street movie normalized greed. And the Wars. And the self-dealing. And the Covid-19 Pandemic brought to you by Fauci-Pfizer. Or the contested election of 2020 sponsored by \$400million Zuck Bucks. Or the pee tapes brought to you by Clinton lawyer Marc Elias and the Pulitzer committee.

    We need a bill of complaints, and a face to attack. Unfortunately, we don’t have private capital’s patsy in the form of King George this time.

    Social Media is the antichrist that rises in the west. That’s obviously hyperbole, right?

    • Agree: Peripatetic Itch
    • Thanks: Emerging Majority
  29. Getaclue says:

    Most everything about the “Counter Culture” including music/entertainment is a lie. There was a “purpose” to it but it was hidden because you can’t sell poison if you call it that…. All controlled for decades in the ongoing plot to degrade humanity — to the point we are now about to be hit with their NWO Great Reset and reduced to Serfdom post depopulation–which a great part of the Peons are cheering on because, yes, they are that stupid and degraded finally.

    They could only do this by making people dumber and dumber and they achieved that in great part by poisoning music and “culture” — as well as of course “drugs” which is where complete phony CIA tools like Timothy Leary (and others) came in….

    This article and video makes the point. Who has even ever seen this video? I’ve read a lot about Leary and the Counter Culture etc. and lived thru it and NEVER saw this until yesterday. Why? Timothy Leary etc. were all phony operators used to push and Agenda that they hid — and cooked up to degrade the USA — that was the point, everything else was bs…and it worked. All part of the Masonic “one eyed” Agenda that has been carefully plotted for a very long time….

    Watch this video and explain to me how these people are even in the same room? We’ve been scammed/degraded/drugged down/dumbed down for a long time and now we are about to fully see the reason why as they finally spring out the end game of the NWO Great Reset Serfdom Agenda using CVirus and whatever else to finalize what Leary and these other scum enabled:

    https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/12/in-plain-view-jaw-dropping-video-of-lsd-promoters-holding-1979-meeting/

  30. Thomasina says:
    @Alden

    Alden – good music is just good music, no matter the genre, and the Irish certainly had a huge influence, lots of good fiddling. I haven’t listened to that much southern music, but what I have listened to, I have greatly enjoyed. Dixie always – always – brings a tear to my eye.

    Watch out for those choppers, Alden.

  31. @Mark G.

    “Something” was written by George Harrison…

    • Replies: @Franz
    , @Z-man
  32. @Anonymous

    Have you seen “On the Town”?

    Sinatra was a skinny, jug-eared little runt (5ft 7in). You can’t say he’s ugly, nor can you say that he was handsome or good looking. He had a funny face, really.
    He definitely got action for being a connected, superlative singer, not for his looks.

  33. Cowboy says:

    What comes around goes around, sure. Boomers are sitting at the slots watching the wheel go round and round. The beating trope is as it was. Sinatra-Boomers next up Gen X

  34. @Alden

    “I remember at some point MoTown was considered the most honest least corrupt company in the music industry. Along with some of the old time Appalachian music companies. Didn’t cheat the artists too badly”

    If so, those other companies must have been incredibly corrupt. Back in the days of cash, club owners would count out a band’s take at the end of the night in front of them, no “here’s your money in an envelope” nonsense; then the band would gather up the money and count it again, themselves., in front of the owner. That was called “Motown Accounting.” I’m not sure if Gordy used to short change his artists or he was used to being shortchanged by promoters.

    Barry Gordy was sharp, and some artists learned useful lessons. Michael Jackson, for instance. He learned that you could promise someone a million dollars, then “fulfill” your promise by setting up an account with say 100k and pay it out over 20 or 30 years, calling it the “present value of a million”. Sort of reverse usury. Came in handy when Jackson bought the Beatles catalog (Paul gave him the tip without thinking he could ever afford it) and of course those “million dollar” settlements for various victims.

  35. @Thomasina

    “For a person who never learned to read or write music, he is exceptional.”

    Back before the obsession with doctorates, there was a guy who was reputed to be America’s leading Shakespeare scholar ( I think; Goodenough was his name?) who only had a BA. One day some student dared to ask why he never bothered with a PhD. Goodenough replied, “Who… would examine me?”

    • Replies: @Thomasina
  36. Franz says:
    @inspector general

    “Something” was written by George Harrison…

    That quote of his must have been pure torture for George Harrison. I can’t help but think Frank was being complimentary, and just assumed Lennon-McCartney wrote all the Beatles songs.

    Frank and many others originally thought rock was a fad. I would not hold it against any of them. They were unaware that rock’s underpinnings included Scottish and Irish traditions, English music hall tropes and American music that had developed in the South, Appalachia, and other places.

    Many changed their minds:

    Bing Crosby started by mocking the Beatles, then cut an album called “Hey Jude, Hey Bing” — the first cut and single was a Beatles song.

    Bobby Darin, yes, the guy Kevin Spacey made a ghastly movie about. Starting in the 1950s as a Neo-Crooner, by 1966 was going through a “folk phase” of his own.

    Burl Ives, acclaimed American folk singer. In 1968, Burl put out an album called “The Times They Are A-Changin” which included his version of the title cut, a Bob Dylan song, the lyrics of which seem to mean something different 50 years on from when he wrote it:

    • Replies: @D. K.
    , @Priss Factor
  37. Thomasina says:
    @Peter D. Bredon

    Exactly. If you are doing what you’re naturally inclined to do, what you love to do, what can’t be taught but instead flows from inside, what PhD is going to be a match for that? Not going to happen. Interesting that Mr. Goodenough was more than good enough, after all.

  38. Only the Lonely–Cycles —Frank is one of the best —-Perry Como and Tony Bennett—ckass….

  39. Franz says:
    @D. K.

    Nice find there.

    Paul being Paul ==

    “I don’t think [George] thought of himself very much as a songwriter,” said Paul McCartney,[…] “There was no jealousy. In fact, I think Frank Sinatra used to introduce ‘Something’ as his favorite Lennon/McCartney song. Thanks, Frank.”

    George Harrison’s biography remembers it quite a bit less sanguine, but Sinatra and Harrison are both dead and Paul isn’t so he gets the last word in.

  40. BuelahMan says:

    It was interesting until:

    Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock

    Duh! No.

    If the author missed truth by such a large margin here, the rest must be crapola.

    • Agree: Alden
  41. Angharad says:
    @anonymous

    NO singer has ever, ever had better phrasing and inflection. And he “spoke” the lyrics flawlessly. No slurring. You can understand every single word. I love his voice. The ear damaged MORON who scribbled this idiocy dribbled about how Sinatra didn’t have the greatest voice. Sinatra had a lovely, kinda rumply baritone. The sound of his voice, to me, is like a comfy, well-loved sweater, pulled on to combat the cold of a wintry day. His singing – that “sweater” is made of the very, very finest cashmere the world has to offer. You can see, touch, and HEAR quality. The finest quality. That ever has been. That’s Sinatra.

    My very favorite Sinatra song is this. “One More Fore The Road”. This is Sinatra ins his finest Every Man Regular Joe guise.

    Sinatra, as an individual, was an EveryMan. Yes – he was world famous – and still is. He was very wealthy via his talents. He wasn’t an intellectual. He had a rather difficult, touchy personality. He had some very unpleasant pals. I don’t know if he read any books. I don’t care if he did. But his singing? His interpretation indicates a PROFOUND understanding of Human nature and emotions. The setting in this wee, sparkling gem shows Sinatra sitting in a little bar. It’s deep in the night (Yes, it’s early morning, but if it’s dark out it’s still “night”) He’s wearing ordinary “businessman” clothing. His hat is askance, shoved back a bit on his head. This guy has had a very long day. He’s got a lot on his mind, and soul. He’s stopped in this bar for a quick, soothing nightcap. The joint is not fancy; it’s a little neighborhood joint that no one would ever notice if you weren’t a local. He’s a regular. He knows the barkeep. He knows his name. They are the only 2 souls in the place. Sinatra begins a “conversation” with Joe. It’s almost like a sigh. He begins relating his “day”. The inflection is soft and delicate. The phrasing is FLAWLESS. As he continues. his real thoughts and reasons begin to flow out. He’s grieving, late, late, in the deepest part of the night, all alone, with his Father Confessor, over a dead love. These are 2 middle aged guys – and grown MEN. Not soyboys. Not feelings obsessed ManBun overgrown babies. 2 guys that are genuine adult men, that have lived, seen a lot, endured a lot, and suck it up as a matter of course, because that’s what men DO. They don’t make ’em like this anymore. I know these guys. My father, and his pals, were like these two guys. They don’t make ’em like this anymore. The lyrics of this song don’t detail specifics about the end of the relationship. The song peaks in the middle. Sinatra’s swell of emotion is the center of the interpretation. He doesn’t weep, or yell, or carry on like a 3 year old; it’s just a little bit more emphasis, and a little bit louder. That’s all. He’s a tad embarrassed as the song ends; he apologizes to Joe for keeping him there. He knows Joe wants to close up and go home. He just hadda talk, though. He thanks Joe for letting him talk, and for the drink.

    This is a genuine work of ART – and a masterpiece at that. It’s FLAWLESS from start to finish, and moves me to my core. I wish they made ’em like this, these days.

    I think that if you die and go to Heaven, and you have been a very, very, very good, exceptional Human Being, you get to go to Heaven’s finest nightclub, and listen to Frank every night.

  42. pecosbill says:

    The sixties had its moments.

    I’ll never say never to always
    I never say always to none
    To seem is to dream a dream my love
    Cuz one is one is one

    For always is all is forever
    As one is one is one
    Look inside yourself for your father
    All is one, all is one, none is one

    It’s time to call time from behind you
    The illusion has been just a dream
    Valley of death and I’ll find you
    Now is when on a sunshine beam
    So bring only your perfection
    For there love shall surely be
    No cold, pain, fear or hunger
    You can see, you can see, you can see

  43. D. K. says:
    @Angharad

    For the original “Duets” CD, released in 1993, Carly Simon was originally scheduled to sing “One More for the Road” with Frank. She refused, saying that the song encouraged drunk driving! Sigh….

    • Replies: @Angharad
  44. Sinatra was the biggest shabbos goy who ever lived.

    Without the nose promoting him he would have been a Fredo.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  45. For the first time ever I made a wiki search for Sinatra, and learned he was born in 1915. So how did he avoid getting drafted in WW2?

    Sinatra did not serve in the military during World War II. On December 11, 1943, he was officially classified 4-F (“Registrant not acceptable for military service”) by his draft board because of a perforated eardrum. However, U.S. Army files reported that Sinatra was “not acceptable material from a psychiatric viewpoint”, but his emotional instability was hidden to avoid “undue unpleasantness for both the selectee and the induction service”.[106] Briefly, there were rumors reported by columnist Walter Winchell that Sinatra paid \$40,000 to avoid the service, but the FBI found this to be without merit.[107][108][109]

    \$40,000 in 1942 amounts to \$678,000 in 2021. That would buy a lot of favorable psychiatric opinions.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  46. Thomasina says:
    @Angharad

    “But his singing? His interpretation indicates a PROFOUND understanding of Human nature and emotions.”

    I agree. Thanks for capturing him, for your beautiful description of a true “artist”. He was and is a treasure.

  47. I am a boomer and I grew up on the Beatles, with their first hits coming in my early teens, and knowing all the words to She Loves You, I Wanna Hold Your Hand, and Love Me Do, but sounds like Sinatra and the big bands were very much a familiar part of the musical landscape, mainly through the radio, and I knew many of Sinatra’s songs too.

    The very first LP I even bought myself was Ella Fitgerald’s small group album Clap Hands, Here Come Charlie, where I learned songs like Night In Tunisia, even though I had never heard of Dizzy Gillespie at that point.

    Sinatra was a product of the jazz age, and in my opinion the recordings with the Count Basie band are still his best work. I was never a huge fan, but you have to respect the guy for his part in the development of popular song.

    I was listening to him on Alexa, just two days ago, and his work is still holding its own versus Pink Floyd, Cream, or Led Zeppelin in terms of how much it can be listened to.

    • Replies: @SonOfFrankenstein
  48. D. K. says:
    @Zachary Smith

    Frank Sinatra, despite his slight build as an adult, well into his middle ages, was a very large baby: 13.5 pounds! His was a traumatic delivery, using forceps, which punctured an eardrum and scarred him for life. He was all but given up for dead, that December Sunday, until his grandmother grabbed him and ran cold water over him, at the kitchen sink, which started him breathing and crying. “The rest is history.” The number of famous American men who did not serve in World War II is quite lengthy, although it seems that John Wayne and, to a lesser extent, Sinatra get disproportionate abuse for their lack of service. Anyone who watches Hollywood films made from 1942 through 1945 will easily notice that they are replete with seemingly healthy young men who were not serving their country during the war.

    • Replies: @Angharad
    , @loren
  49. D. K. says:
    @Robert Dolan

    Harry James and Tommy Dorsey would like to have a word with you….

  50. What the end of ethnic Italian romantic music and the rise of Mk-Ultra produced Rock and Roll, and later Hard Rock, signaled was the manufacture of the de-based Youth Culture and the degenerate (not generating children) Rock Drug Culture.

    This song – Thriftshop – by Scott Bradley’s Postmodern Jukebox – has turned music back to the 1920’s and real talent – not electronically augmented music. LINK

    THRIFT SHOP – ROBYN ADELE ANDERSON

    • Thanks: Thomasina
    • Replies: @Truth
    , @jsigur
  51. @Verymuchalive

    “Psychoanalysis ceased being intellectually respectable in the 1960s…”

    Psychoanalysis has never been “intellectually respectable”, it has always been unmitigated fraud.

    • Agree: Alden, Arthur MacBride
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  52. Sparkon says:

    I‘ve always liked Frank Sinatra’s songs, but I think he sings slightly flat. Maybe the punctured eardrum had something to do with that.

    You know, there were some great vocalists with arguably better pitch and better voices than Sinatra coming out of the ’40s and well into the ’50s. Do you know Bing Crosby, Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Tony Bennett, Eddie Fisher and Dean Martin?

    I sure do, having heard those guys a lot on the radio and TV in the late ’40s and ’50s, but good as they were, none were a real sensation like Frank Sinatra had been, adored by the Bobby Soxers during and after WWII.

    Elvis too was a sensation, of course, but he too had plenty of competition from good looking singers with great songs like Pat Boone, Paul Anka, Johnnie Horton, Frankie Avalon, and Ricky Nelson.

    According to an opinion poll of high-school students in 1957, the singer [Pat Boone] was nearly the “two-to-one favorite over Elvis Presley among boys and preferred almost three-to-one by girls …

    This set features a quartet of crooners from the mid ’50 to the early ’60s, a time when the oldest Baby Boomers were beginning to come of age.

    Guy Mitchell, “Singing the Blues,”
    The Ed Sullivan Show, November 18, 1956

    Frankie Avalon, “Venus, ” 1959

    Pat Boone, “Moody River,” 1961

    Ricky Nelson, “It’s Up to You,” 1963

  53. meamjojo says:

    I have 24 albums by Sinatra, more than any other single artist in my collection.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  54. Interesting article, pleasant to read, but there is a flaw in its central argument, or at least an oversight that should be taken into account when making such comparisons as the author makes between artists. Sinatra, unlike Dylan, Lennon, and other giants of the rock phenomenon, did not write his own songs, and so he is in many ways less creative an artist than those people, and more comparable to a fine instrumentalist (his voice) who brilliantly interprets the compositions of others.

    In this respect he should be compared more to singers like Madonna, who also does not write her own material. Elvis at least wrote a few of his songs. At any rate, Frankie comes out of such more consistent comparisons looking pretty good.

    Another thing to point out is that, while the author’s observations on the disconnect between the culture of Italian-American ethnic enclaves and the new 60s counterculture is interesting and appreciated, he fails to make the distinction that this only holds true for those of Italian descent whose identity was most shaped by those relatively isolated enclaves. Because a closer look at 60s rock shows more than a few Italian-Americans and Italo-Brits playing important roles simply as 60s rockers quite outside their ethnic culture (just as, for example, Jerry Garcia became a hippy torchbearer entirely independently of his Hispanic background): Frank Zappa (a rock god if there ever was one); Felix Pappalardi (producer of Cream and bass player for Mountain); John Cipollina and Dino Valenti of Quicksilver; Jim Capaldi (multi-instrumentalist and principle lyricist of Traffic); Tony Iommi (guitarist for Black Sabbath); Carmine Appice (Vanilla Fudge and others): Jim Croce; Jim Messina (of Loggins & Messina); Bruce Springsteen (Italian on his mother’s side); Little Steven Van Zandt (real surname Lento); Joe Perry of Aerosmith (Portuguese-Italian, birth name Pereira); Ronnie James Dio, and so on. As we can see, there was no lack of Italian-Americans helping to shape the counterculture, just as they figured prominently as well among Beat poets: Gregory Corso, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Diane Di Prima, among others…

    An interesting argument to explore would be how ethnic subcultures, for all their richness, can sometimes limit a person’s integration into larger cultural trends. The Italians working outside a Scorsesesque milieu seem to have no problem integrating into the broader movement.

  55. @Anonymous

    From the day he started. Only boomers give a damn about that talentless fuck Bob Dylan.

    • Replies: @RestiveUs
  56. @BuelahMan

    If the author missed truth by such a large margin here, the rest must be crapola.

    Indeed it was.

  57. This article was like one of those modern indie comedies where you’re waiting for something funny to happen throughout the whole film only because you know it’s supposed to be a comedy.

    The author seemed to be telling us this was humor by saying he only really liked Civil War music, but then the laughs were pretty sparse until obwandiyag’s first comment, which stole the show. God help us all.

    So kudos for the “dissident voices” aspect I guess. Hooray for the unpopular opinion and all that.

  58. D. K. says:
    @meamjojo

    When I was buying vinyl LPs, from the early-1970s until the mid-1990s, I did not buy a single one by a crooner or chanteuse. In January 1994, I belatedly bought my first CD player, and my first CD was a gift of Sinatra’s last Capitol album (prior to the “Duets” CDs of the mid-1990s), namely “Point of No Return” (1962), which he had recorded beginning on my first day of kindergarten. After that, I bought the 1-CD Harry James collection, the 5-CD Tommy Dorsey collection (“The Song Is You”), the 12-CD Columbia collection, the 21-CD Capitol collection (from Europe), and the 20-CD Reprise studio collection, along with other odds and ends, videos and books. His music CDs make up a supermajority of all of my music CDs, and exceed my vinyl Beatles collection by better than a three-to-one margin.

  59. @KJB Mid Acts Pauline Dispensationalist

    Frank Sinatra was greatly influential in reviving the classic songs that have become known as “The Great American Songbook.” This was at a time, in the early ’50s, when American popular music was declining into artistic irrelevance with hits such as “How Much Is That Doggie in the Window?”

    Sinatra brought us back from the brink. He found his extraordinary groove and we are all the richer for it. But he wasn’t immune to musical slumming from time to time. I offer as Exhibit A “High Hopes.”

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    , @D. K.
  60. Sparkon says:
    @Etruscan Film Star

    This was at a time, in the early ’50s, when American popular music was declining into artistic irrelevance with hits such as “How Much Is That Doggie in the Window?”

    You cite one novelty song as if it somehow represented the entire pop music scene by 1953, and completely overlook all the other great crooners of that era I’d mentioned above in my #56:

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/frank-sinatra-vs-the-boomers/#comment-5041276

    My quick survey indicates Sinatra did not have any #1 hits on Billboard charts between 1947 and 1955, when he scored with “Learning the Blues,” #1 in radio play but not sales, and then was absent for 12 years from Billboard’s top spot until 1967’s “Something Stupid” with daughter Nancy.

    True, 1953 began with Jimmy Boyd’s Christmas classic “I saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” atop Billboard’s charts, but Patti Page’s 8-week run at #1 later that year with “Doggy” was preceded at #1 by Teresa Brewer’s sentimental ballad “Until I Waltz Again With You,” and followed at #1 by Percy Faith’s beautiful theme “The Song from Moulin Rouge (Where Is Your Heart)” for 10 weeks atop the charts, but the year’s #1 hit was arguably “Via con Dios” by Les Paul and Mary Ford, which spent 11 weeks total at #1 in two appearances.

    “Vaya con Dios” Les Paul and Mary Ford

    Far from being sparse weave with a few threads, the fabric of popular music in the ’50s was a rich tapestry of many styles.

    • Replies: @Etruscan Film Star
  61. D. K. says:
    @Etruscan Film Star

    Most Sinatraphiles cite “Mama Will Bark” (1951), a duet with blonde bombshell Dagmar, as the nadir of Sinatra’s recording career. I always point out that that novelty record was a moderate hit, at a time when his recording career was in a recession:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_Will_Bark

    Personally, I consider Wednesday, February 16, 1977, to be the nadir of Frank Sinatra’s recording career. That was the day that he walked into a recording studio in New York City and laid down his vocals for new renditions of “All or Nothing at All” and “Night and Day”– in the then-popular disco style!

  62. @Rich

    Dylan was a huge influence on the Byrds and many others. Even though he’s a jew, he wrote a lot of great songs.

    • Replies: @Rich
  63. “What the world needs now
    Is a new Frank Sinatra
    So I can get you in bed…” — Cracker

  64. The day is coming, a wonderful day, when all this 60s garbage will be like the “Jazz Age” music of the 1920s. The kikes wouldn’t even use it in that shitty Gatsby movie.

  65. Skeptikal says:
    @obwandiyag

    WTF, Obiwan?

    Jealous?

    I think this is a pretty interesting essay.

    I also enjoyed the clips provided.

  66. @Jim Christian

    Obviously neither a poet nor even an intellectual, Christian has most likely barely dipped his toes into Dylan. Dude did not get awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature for politically correct shits n’ giggles–or for his croonless voicing. My recommendation: The entire Highway 61 Revisited album and most specifically “Desolation Row”. That masterpiece of lyrical poetry transmuted into music was hardly calculated to appeal to the crass and the careless. One needs to listen to it time and again to begin to catch the historical and literary allusions.

    It also helps to have had the good fortune to hang out in Greenwich Village in the Summer of ’65, the year when Dylan, a bit uptown from there, was producing Highway 61 Revisited. Perhaps it also helps to be a poet from Northern Minnesota.

    The early Dylan was both a mystic and a prophet and a profoundly gifted channeler. Should something of this ersatz civilization survive this denouement of Kali Yuga; Dylan will have become a classic for such as “The Chimes of Freedom”, “Copper Kettle” and “Forever Young”. Lacking appeal to the Great Overwashed, these powerful anthems never became hits making the “Top 40”.

    I would agree with the essayist that unlike Sinatra, Dylan’s music in more recent years denoted a message and a voice that did not age well. Some of his most recent takes almost contain a whiff of self-parody.

    Perhaps the last great outpouring of the Rock n’ Roll spirit which crescendoed between the mid-60’s and mid-70’s, which was far and away the most classical of all the productions of the Eagles, “Hotel California”. The telling line was “We haven’t had that spirit here since nineteen sixty-nine.” The bands played on after that seminal year and a lot of good material appeared. But by the time the Eagles hit it big, R&;R was running on fumes.

    Additional note: Today’s “music”, at least the stuff played on FM radio, is horse-shit. Whether it’s gangsta rap or chick music, it simply has no soul—a near perfect analogical metaphor for the current psychological and spiritual state of our ruptured republic.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  67. Skeptikal says:
    @Mark G.

    I wonder how many people posting here are actually boomers, or understand the basic arithmetic. Maybe some of them are college professors who majored in studying popular trends.

    I was in the first boomer cohort. In my recollection, singers like Sinatra, Perry Como, Rosemary Clooney, Kate Smith, and others were at the top of their game when the Elvis Presley comet hit the atmosphere. They all had TV programs (not Elvis, of course). Also Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis, and Dinah Shore. TV was just getting going. American Bandstand was a big fave and introduced a lot of American teenagers to rock-and-roll. Dick Clarke had all kinds of guests, including Jerry Lee Lewis and Ricky Nelson. For those watching from home every afternoon, the “talent” consisting of high school kids dancing was mesmerizing.

    The mid-fifities to early sixties, when the Beatles blasted in, were a big mash-up of styles. It was a transitional time, so a lot of the old and the new coexisted. Many boomers were not interested in rock-and-roll, actually. Or they danced to both crooner music like Johnny Mathis and rock a la Jerry Lee Lewis and Elvis; black music had not broken through to mainstream America as reflected on TV, especially American Bandstand, but also in the guests on very influential “variety” shows such as Ed Sullivan and Steve Allen. Not to mention the Everly Brothers, Buddy Holly and the Crickets. Couples danced together, the guy leading. Dancing to early rock-and-roll was basically swing dancing, or some version of the fox trot (for close, sexy dancing as in the video of Rosanne Arquette and Spano). Remember when the Twist came in? I do. That was the beginning of the whole idea of dancing more or less by yourself on the dance floor, not with a male partner as lead. That was a very big change in the whole popular music culture.

    People who were not there have very selective “memories” and some odd theories.

    There was a lot going on simultaneously in popular music from the mid-fifties into the sixties. That was also the era of some of the biggest and most popular and influential Broadway musicals, such as Carousel, Oklahoma, The King and I, My Fair Lady, and others. These provided a lot of great songs for other popular artists to cover in all genres and styles. And don’t forget the huge popularity and influence of Harry Bellafonte. In the mid-sixties the Beatles, the British invasion, folk and alternative rock , and the Motown Sound finally came out more or less on top for high school and college students. For a while. Things changed as the early boomer cohorts grew up and went different ways. These early postwar cohorts actually experienced the bursting of the new rock music into the older scene in the mid- and late fifties. They experienced the disapproval of Elvis & Co. by their parents. I recall when Elvis appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show and thus in a sense got a seal of approval for mainstream American parents.

    • Agree: Curle
    • Replies: @Curle
  68. Skeptikal says:
    @Angharad

    I was never a huge Sinatra fan—not a foe,either! Just didn’t pay much attention, and the whole Mia Farrow thing was a disaster.

    However, I did read a most interesting Sinatra bio—I think it is called “My Way.”
    It is a good social history of the USA as well as of Sinatra himself.

    But the reason I mention it is that there is a lot of detailed info on how Sinatra worked with bands, how he worked with various coaches etc. to improve his phrasing, how he developed his repertoire of gestures—developed the casual delivery that looked so easy. How he chose songs.

    He was a professional, no doubt about that.

    Also, his tempestuous romantic entanglements, such as with Ava Gardner, and underneath it all, a basic loyalty to his first wife, an Italian American girl from the neighborhood. Interesting.

    • Replies: @Z-man
  69. Curle says:

    Can you imagine what Sinatra thought of this?

    • Replies: @SonOfFrankenstein
  70. I’m clearly not in your generation and I like both Sinatra and Elvis. Dylan seems like a whiney rich b-tch and sounds like he has a harmonica stuck up his nose.

    Steve this article is a f-king mess. I feel like I haven’t fried my brain with LSD which is why I don’t understand it.

    You lost it on this one. It just got away from you.

    But don’t take it too personally. Of all boomers I still hate you the least along with Bannon. I only wish Covid upon you when most of your generation deserves butt AIDs.

  71. Curle says:
    @Jim Christian

    Dylan could be sublime in a way that surpassed almost all other recording artists of his generation. The Beatles understood that. So did Elvis. I’d bet Frank did as well. Why can’t you?

  72. Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock….

    You mean “folk” music, don’t you? He was a horrible singer, folk or otherwise.

    Sorry, but I couldn’t get past that sentence and stopped reading.

  73. Miro23 says:

    In a way, Michael Corleone was naive about going legitimate and turning away from organized crime. There’s a better way: Legalize the criminal vices, and all that was once illegit becomes legit. Just like that. With gambling legalized just about everywhere, we are living in Sinatrapolis. And given the state of US foreign policy as dictated by Jewish boomers, the old mafia seem like small potatoes, hopeless amateurs. In 2020, the system cynically employed black thugs and Antifa to burn down cities just to gain a few percentage points in the black vote and to embarrass Trump. And Big Pharma has proven to be a global-gangster operation under the Covid Regimen: They made the world an offer it can’t refuse.

    And especially his later songs are more about the mood after-the-party than during it. A sense that no matter how intense the moment, it will burn out and lights will dim and life will go on as it always has. That is the beauty and sadness of BABY IT’S YOU’s final moment, and maybe a saving grace for the boomers as well.

    The boomers are definitely in the after-the-party stage but they’re in no way accepting it.

  74. @Sparkon

    Sparkon,

    You write in comment 56:

    You know, there were some great vocalists with arguably better pitch and better voices than Sinatra coming out of the ’40s and well into the ’50s. Do you know Bing Crosby, Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Tony Bennett, Eddie Fisher and Dean Martin?

    All those are worthy vocalists, but no match for Frank Sinatra as interpreters. (Among the women I’d add June Christy and Kay Starr.) Still, Sinatra was unique because of his voice and his uncanny ability to catch the mood of a song in his phrasing.

    My quick survey indicates Sinatra did not have any #1 hits on Billboard charts between 1947 and 1955, when he scored with “Learning the Blues,” #1 in radio play but not sales, and then was absent for 12 years from Billboard’s top spot until 1967’s “Something Stupid” with daughter Nancy.

    Positions on the Billboard charts do not measure quality. They are only relevant to record company profits. But it’s probably true that he was less appreciated in the ’50s than in modern times.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  75. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @obwandiyag

    Look, we get it. You are a racist who hates white people.

  76. I only read this because it was deemed deserving of prominence by the publisher.

    Why?

    The author has little to say about music, apparently because he has no interest in or aptitude for listening to it. The artists are instead addressed in the context of wardrobe, Hollywood movies, politics, etc.

    When not tin-eared clueless, embarrassingly banal.

    • Agree: Verymuchalive
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  77. @obwandiyag

    Hmm … syphilis at work. Your Igbo tribe members are concerned.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
  78. “Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock,…”. And at this point, I stopped reading.

  79. Renoman says:

    Best quote of the day “Music is for listening, not talking about.” I’m a musician.

  80. @acementhead

    Of course, it’s always been an unmitigated fraud. I was merely channeling Steve Sailer’s view, with which I agree ( don’t ask me to find the article: it was several years back. ) He said that psychoanalysis had ceased to be intellectually respectable in the 1960s, meaning that its very limited academic support collapsed and died.( sometimes literally )

    • Replies: @acementhead
  81. There is too much in this text. I would say it contains some good stuff, but also way too many questionable statements.

    Anyway, Sinatra was a continuity of popular music in the past half a century, even more,way back to the 1850s. All nuances aside, rock music was, in the early 60s & some time before, simply something radically new due to technology & the change of cultural climate. It couldn’t have been done without the developed electric guitar & the orgiastic approach to music & extreme promiscuity that took hold of white young people, a sort of negrification of whites..

    Sinatra, as engaged as he was- and I don’t care for his tunes – just couldn’t follow new trends.

    Trends which began with Elvis & are now culminating in George Floyd (pbuh).

  82. Also- Sinatra’s rise coincided with great achievements of Italian cinema; it is true that English, apart from a few composers, don’t possess rich musical tradition- but they had been, along with the French, Europe’s most enduring entertainers in many areas (musicals, popular fiction, popular sports & dances,…).

    The 19th- early 20th C high-brow culture

    Music- German & to a significantly lesser degree Italian, French & Russian

    Imaginative literature- Russian & French

    Visual arts- French

    Low-brows

    Music- Italian, English/British, American

    Imaginative literature- English, American & French

    Visual arts- ?

    Pornography- German & French

  83. Anonymous[661] • Disclaimer says:

    Worst, stupidest collection of ill-informed ramblings I’ve come across on Unz Review. The whole piece reads like a freshman paper scrawled two hours before the hand-in deadline.

    For insightful (and tongue-in-cheek) reading regarding the subject of Sinatra I’d highly recommend that old benchmark masterpiece by Gay Talese, “Frank Sinatra Has A Cold”.

    Two memories about Sinatra stand out. The first is hearing him live. In concert, his talent was a stunning revelation. Sinatra’s numerous recordings, as good as they might be, never did justice to his real capabilities and artistry as a live performer.

    Second memory, standing in a parking lot in Santa Monica on a beautiful afternoon the day Sinatra died, all of us quietly looking upward as a sky-writing plane drew a large white heart against the light blue sky with a message that spelled WE LOVE FRANK.

    • Thanks: mark green
    • Replies: @Angharad
  84. @Greta Handel

    I only read this because it was deemed deserving of prominence by the publisher.

    Why?

    Priss Factor ( #51 ) assures me that Jung-Freud is a female Japanese anime character.
    http://www.toponeraegunbuster.com/Gunbuster-Jung.html

    So I suspect this is part of Mr Ron’s strategy to increase the number of female columnists on UR. Ilana Mercer and Michelle Malkin produce quality work, even if you might not always agree with them on individual points. But J-F is garbage. Raches also seems to be female. At least, s/he is unhinged, but in a female sort of way.

    Memo to Mr Ron.
    By all means increase the number of female contributors, but only if they pass quality control.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Greta Handel
  85. @KJB Mid Acts Pauline Dispensationalist

    His hoarse-throated rendition of “Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown” was an enjoyable late-life standard.

  86. Traddles says:

    I enjoyed this piece by Jung-Freud. It’s quirky and follows a personal perspective, but there’s nothing wrong with that.

    I’m old enough to remember when Sinatra and the Beatles were still active. There were good elements of both the older, “Square” world and some of the newer Counter-Culture. What was good about the 60’s was the attempt at countering excessive conformity. The Grateful Dead and a few of their fellows were examples of this. Some of the popular music of the time was well-crafted, often with the very substantial help of “producers,” and stands the test of time. George Martin, “the 5th Beatle,” was only one of many examples.

    People from the older generations who tried to look “hip” made themselves silly and contemptible. A lot of them were attracted by the hedonism of the time. Most of the Squares, though, were just trying to lead responsible, decent lives. They were unfairly, mercilessly mocked and often viciously attacked by those who were supposedly tolerant and for “peace and love.” Many in the Counter-Culture actually were not very tolerant, not very peaceful, and not very loving. And the terrible, irresponsible ideas that they followed, from the New Left and earlier influencers, have destroyed what was good and beautiful in our culture and society.

    • Replies: @Curle
  87. Mr.Turner says:
    @Alden

    Bob Dylan, real name Robert Zimmerman. Sinatra was also a jew asskisser.

    • Replies: @loren
  88. gsjackson says:

    Couple of factual quibbles. Tony Bennett sang I Left my Heart in San Francisco. Doubt Sinatra ever recorded it because it was so clearly associated with his paisano Tony. In recording Mack the Knife he even felt obliged at the end of the record to apologize to Bobby Darin and Louis Armstrong for poaching on their turf.

    And after a foray into science fiction dystopia with his first movie THX 1138, George Lucas was very explicitly about being a throwback. American Graffiti, which put him on the map and in the chips, capitalized on the nostalgia boom of the early ’70s. And he has always said that the Star Wars movies were from the beginning an attempt to reinvigorate the Manichean cartoons of his youth.

    Speaking as an early boomer, I’d say you got it right as to Sinatra’s place during our teens and twenties. While I liked Sinatra and my parents’ music, he truly didn’t seem to be on the radar of the youth culture broadly.

    He came back because of talent, and more importantly attitude. He was a standing reproach to ’60s counter-culture. Ronald Reagan said of the hippies and their slogan ‘make love, not war,’ that “they don’t look capable of either.” Sinatra was a scrawny runt, but who could doubt that he would get up in your face at the slightest provocation (or at least when backed up by mob muscle), and the womanizing was legendary.

  89. whodat says:

    maybe this is a idea if you think frank is cool.

  90. Angharad says:
    @D. K.

    Every one who didn’t fight in Jew War II was serving their country.

  91. Angharad says:
    @Anonymous

    Thank you for that info regarding the Talese article.

    I remember the day Sinatra died. I was at work; I couldn’t leave but I was devastated. I was worthless the rest of the day. Your memory is beautiful. Thank you.

    • Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday
  92. Angharad says:
    @D. K.

    I’m glad Simon refused. That would have defiled this song.

  93. TGD says:
    @Alden

    His early songs ripped off from The Anthology of American Folk Music. Ok I guess, public domain.

    The songs, chords, changes and some of the lyrics on Dylan’s first album were copied from Dave Van Ronk including “House of the Rising Sun.”

    • Replies: @loren
  94. Curle says:
    @Skeptikal

    Thank you for mentioning the musicals.

    My parents were college graduates in the late ‘50s. I came along soon thereafter. My mom loved music. We had all the Rodgers and Hammerstein stuff plus the newer ones. I particularly liked Man of LaMancha. We also had jazz, Elvis and Johnny Cash. When the Beatles hit my mom loved them. The radio station on in the house as I grew up in played Simon and Garfunkel. All in all, I’d say the musicals were on the stereo more than anything.

    Also, one big missing point. Boomers learned about music in church as well.

    My parents weren’t Boomers. I was at the tail of ‘boomer’. My first concert was Chicago.

    I find this author’s claim to authority concerning boomers tiresome and contrived.

    Thanks for bringing some perspective to the conversation.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  95. Mike Tre says:

    “Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock”

    I’d like to know by what measure and by what combination of narcotics the author arrived at this conclusion.

    Dylan wasn’t ever even a “rock” performer. His voice, musicianship, lyrics, themes, and production were all that of the lowest quality imaginable, but he was a jewish counter culture posterboy, so he could have flung horseshit at a table saw and it would have been marketed as groundbreaking.

    • Disagree: Curle
    • Replies: @Thomasina
    , @Maowasayali
  96. Z-man says:
    @Woodsie

    Yeah, they’ve been playing those three movies constantly on cable. Man, if they had spent a little more on production/screenplay the two Tony Rome ones could have been great movies. Richard Conte, movie star of the 50’s was in both supporting Sinatra, as he was in Ocean’s Eleven.

  97. Engelbert Humperdinck

    So, I sing you to sleep after the loving … thanks for taking me to the one way trip to the Sun …

  98. Z-man says:
    @inspector general

    Sinatra went out of his way to correct that error he made later on and made one or two nice versions of the song. Harrison, for his part, even added Sinatra’s embellishments ‘…it may show, Jack’ to some of his live performances of the song.

  99. Mike Tre says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Elton John was nothing without the collaboration of Bernie Taupin, who wrote most of the songs and lyrics for John’s hits. If you want to throw a name in for greatest singular rock artist of all time I would offer Freddy Mercury.

    I’m not a big fan of either, even though Queen has grown on me over the years, and the contributions of Brian May notwithstanding, Mercury’s skill and range in composing rock songs and lyrics, as well as achieving super rock star status, far exceeds just about everyone else’s in the genre.

  100. Traddles says:

    While Violet’s fixations may not be a red-blooded right-wing patriot’s idea of conservatism, it is distinct from the liberal tendency of letting go and abandoning oneself to the ‘liberation’ of senses. Even as she’s drawn to the sensuality and excitement of dance, she needs the security of rules and standards. She’s open to change, the evolution of dance, but feels most at home with dance forms requiring technique and training.

    This quote from “Jung-Freud’s” interesting discussion of Whit Stillman movies seems pertinent. With the 60’s, America and western Europe went completely out of balance, careening into the mad situation in which we find ourselves now. The seeds of the problem were there before the Boomers, but the Boomers and their successors created the horrible Establishment that replaced the imperfect but more balanced old one.

  101. Z-man says:

    Bob Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock… ROFL!!!
    What? Talking about Italian American music and no mention of Frankie Valli and The Four Season’s?
    Not a bad article, a bit too long.

  102. Rich says:
    @Bernie Finkelstein

    What great song did he write? All along the Watchtower? “There must be some way out of here, said the joker to thief, businessmen they drink my wine…” Right up there with Shakespeare? Boots of Spanish Leather? ” I’m sailin’ away my own true love, I’m sailin’ away in the morning, Is there something I can send you from across the sea…” A seven year old could write that. Rainy Day Woman? “Nobody feels any pain, today I stand inside the rain, Everybody knows, The baby got new clothes” Hahahaha. To each his own I guess.

    • Disagree: Etruscan Film Star
    • Thanks: Angharad
  103. Curle says:
    @Traddles

    “Many in the Counter-Culture actually were not very tolerant, not very peaceful, and not very loving.”

    Reading Solzhenitsyn’s Two Hundred Years Together where he talks about Jewish resistance to military service and the lengths taken to avoid conscription, I couldn’t help thinking about the ethnic make up of the leadership of the anti-war movement before the draft was ended back in the day when American wars led to mass American casualties. Solzhenitsyn seems to suggest that nationalists die for their country, internationalists hire someone else to die for the country.

    • Thanks: mark green
    • Replies: @Thomasina
  104. tito says: • Website

    Billy Eckstine & Sarah Vaughn

  105. @Stephen Paul Foster

    You took the words right out of my mouth.

  106. @Jonathan Mason

    I am a boomer and I grew up on the Beatles, with their first hits coming in my early teens, and knowing all the words to She Loves You, I Wanna Hold Your Hand, and Love Me Do, but sounds like Sinatra and the big bands were very much a familiar part of the musical landscape, mainly through the radio, and I knew many of Sinatra’s songs too.

    Very true. I grew up in Atlanta and we had WQXI-AM which played a mix of rock, R&B and pop. You couldn’t avoid “Strangers in the Night” or even the odd Dean Martin song coming up from time to time. Youngsters were exposed to this music for better or worse.

    The radio mixes were often a reflection of the times where television “variety shows” dominated and you could find similar mixes. It sounds quaint today but families sat around the televisions together to be entertained. I know that it was common for adults to become fans of The Beatles, particularly when they got past the initial British invasion stage.

    In a way it is sad that everything is compartmentalized today such that we can listen to music on demand. DJs are all but gone along with the concept of a “record album” where one could read the liner notes to learn more about the songwriters and recording personnel.

  107. Bookish1 says:
    @Alden

    My theory is if Dylan wasn’t a jew you would never have heard his name

  108. Curle says:
    @Rich

    “ What great song did he write?”

    My Back Pages
    Visions of Johanna
    Don’t Think Twice
    The first four tacks off side one of Blood on the Tracks: Tangled Up in Blue; Simple Twist of Fate; You’re a Big Girl Now; Idiot Wind plus Shelter from the Storm on side 2.
    That’s just for starters.

    • Replies: @Traddles
    , @Rich
  109. Exile says:

    More incoherent click-bait, shallow riffing off alternative/right memes – not going to bother even skimming this author anymore.

  110. geokat62 says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Priss Factor ( #51 ) assures me that Jung-Freud is a female Japanese anime character.

    Could it be PF is trying to throw us all off the scent?

  111. Traddles says:
    @Curle

    Agreed, about most of those songs. I’d also add “Desolation Row” and “Stuck Inside of Mobile…” For me Dylan’s Blonde on Blonde is pretty darned good, along with Blood on the Tracks.

    Dylan has his flaws, but he also has talents, for anyone really paying attention. Most of rock and roll is pretty inane, despite what all the pretentious critics had to say.

  112. Sparkon says:
    @Etruscan Film Star

    Positions on the Billboard charts do not measure quality.

    Sure, that’s a fair observation, but Priss-Freud’s article is about 20th century popular music, pre-Rock ‘n’ Roll, and how he/she was having “a hard time tuning into their sensibility.” I think it’s just a question of the author being mostly ignorant about the popular music that preceded Rock ‘n’ Roll, and apparently having no appreciation for it.

    And after all, opinions about musical quality are subjective, as are questions of taste, while Billboard’s charts are at least somewhat objective, and those charts do verify my own recollections about the artists and songs I heard on radio & TV in my youth, bringing back a lot of good memories about a time when melodic, generally easy listening type songs dominated, with even Big Band and orchestral music hanging in there as part of the musical tapestry. Certainly I can say melodic songs and instrumentals didn’t go away entirely after Rock burst onto the scene with Elvis.

    Witness schmaltzy showman Liberace, who had a #1 hit in 1960 with “Calcutta,” and whose TV program continued on to the early ’80s. According to Revel Barker in Crying All the Way to the Bank, “At the height of his fame from the 1950s to 1970s, he was the highest-paid entertainer in the world.”

    But you know, Sinatra was a punk. What role hoods played in his success during the ’40s is unknown, but I suggest it wasn’t minor, as success as a celebrity is all about exposure.

    https://www.history.com/news/frank-sinatra-mob-ties-fbi-file

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    , @Priss Factor
  113. @Curle

    Can you imagine what Sinatra thought of this?

    Black Sabbath was probably not in Sinatra’s play list. However, an interesting fact is that their esteemed guitarist/composer Tony Iommi has Italian roots through both of his parents and maintains dual British-Italian citizenship.

    The great metal band Lacuna Coil is Italian. Look them up on YouTube.

    Somebody mentioned the great Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, a group which cannot be ignored. Can’t Take My Eyes Off You took on special meaning after it was used in the great film The Deer Hunter. Valli would dedicate this song to the veterans at his concerts in later years.

    I also recommend The Buckinghams with Dennis Tufaro as lead singer. Tufaro continued his career as a solo artist after leaving the band and his later work is outstanding. The last time I looked, there were several live shows of him on YouTube, including covers of many Bobby Darin songs.

  114. anonymous[398] • Disclaimer says:

    For decades A&R have decided who is going to be popular and that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re highly talented. Their publicists and promotion plant that idea in the heads of the public. Both Sinatra and Dylan are highly over rated. Dylan’s a Jew, right? And Sinatra was a shabbos goy working for Israel. Don’t believe me, research it for yourself.

    These two have more talent then twenty Dylan’s and Sinatra’s

    • Replies: @Liza
  115. @nosquat loquat

    Jerry Garcia’s father was an immigrant from Spain and his mother was of Swedish descent. His father was an old-school America-loving immigrant who insisted that he be called Joe, not Jose. Ergo Jerry’s background was not what is commonly thought of Hispanic — no ancestry from Latin America — and he was not raised within what we think of as Hispanic culture.

  116. Blodgie says:

    One of Sinatra’s lovers of the 40s described him as 140 pounds soaking wet…

    And ten pounds of that was dick.

    • LOL: Trelane
  117. Tlotsi says:
    @obwandiyag

    Talking to yourself, again?

  118. @Thomasina

    But they do have the Irish, and therein lies the music. Paul McCartney (in fact all of the Beatles) have Irish ancestry.

    True, but the Irish are known for their soulfulness whereas Beatles were really a fabulous pop band.

    • Replies: @Thomasina
  119. @Franz

    Frank and many others originally thought rock was a fad.

    Rock n Roll, the 50s incarnation, was something of a fad or musical fashion. It exploded on the scene and changed the musical landscape and its energy inspired much that was to come, but that particular style of music seemed old already by early 60s. When Beatles happened, Elvis was already old hat and resented it. Still, Elvis had a Trump card as he established himself as a Man. Thus, he could grow out of his rock n roll image and grow into a more mature idol singing songs like “Suspicious Minds” and “Kentucky Rain”. In contrast, the later rockers who identified so much with youth became stunted or came across ludicrous in later yrs.

    Rock couldn’t be a fad because it defined itself in broad terms allowing for evolution in style and amazing eclecticism. Everything from Led Zeppelin’s neo-blues to Joni Mitchell’s willowy ballads count as ‘Rock’.

  120. Tlotsi says:
    @Dumbo

    It’s weird to speak of “modern” lyricists when you’re talking about examples from 50 years ago.

  121. @gsjackson

    “Sinatra was a scrawny runt, but who could doubt that he would get up in your face at the slightest provocation…”

    It’s said that in barroom fights it’s almost always the smaller guy who starts it.

    And I’m reminded of a story about Don Rickles performing in Las Vegas. He saw Sinatra enter the room, so he said “hey Frank make yourself at home. Hit someone!” Fortunately for Rickles, Sinatra was feeling generous that night and he laughed along with everyone else.

  122. Rich says:
    @Curle

    My back pages – “Half racked prejudice leaped forth, ‘rip down all the hate’, I screamed…” Heavy stuff? Laughable.
    Visions of Johanna – ‘Ain’t it just like the night to play tricks when you’re trying to be quiet?” Intense.
    Don’t think twice – “Well it ain’t no use to sit and wonder why babe, If’n you don’t by now…” that’s real poetry.

    Face it, the music of your youth was crapola, popcorn stuff that you thought meant something. And, in a way, now that your older, like a lot of people you get sentimental about your youth and want to pretend the Justin Bieber of your day was an “artist”. He wasn’t, he was just a “pop star” developed and marketed and spoon fed to you.

    • Replies: @Curle
    , @Priss Factor
  123. @Angharad

    I was on a business trip in Cincinnati when Sinatra died. The local paper’s headline read “The Voice Goes Silent” in a typeface that was probably exceeded in size only by the moon landing or Nixon’s resignation.

  124. Tlotsi says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I was thinking the same thing, even though he is far from a favorite.

  125. gsjackson says:
    @Priss Factor

    Guess there’s not a ballad between the ’30s and ’70s that Sinatra didn’t record. Never heard that one before. Doesn’t have his usual cocksuredness of intonation. He knows he’s poaching. The song made Bennett’s career, which was still going strong until he went senile a couple years ago. He was playing Jazzfest in his late 80s.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    , @Priss Factor
  126. @BuelahMan

    The crucial term here is ‘artist’. Dylan was not the most charismatic figure in rock. Certainly not the best singer in the technical sense. But if anyone conceived of and realized the possibility that Rock could be Art, it was Dylan. Before Dylan, Rock could be great fun. It could be original and dazzling. But no one looked to Rock for depth, meaning, and personal expression on par with the arts. Dylan changed all that and directly and indirectly inspired other Rockers to dig into themselves for source of creativity and expression.

    • Replies: @Thomasina
    , @BuelahMan
  127. jsigur says:
    @Wayne Lusvardi

    I think there is a very good chance Hendrix was MK Ultra-ed possibly, during his short army stint and right after. It was interesting how the NWO spread around the leaders of the 60’s music scene.
    Dylan in New York; Kristofferson in Nashville ( listen to his lyrics that sound little like country in the early days but it was likely he that paved the way for country being cool and now for country no longer being country)
    Then you have Prine and Goodman out of Chicago where the original “not ready for prime time players” got their chops (Bill Murry confirmed in an interview that his guys would usually end their nights listening to Prine and gang).
    I supposed ultra rich kid, Graham Parsons, began the integration of California country into the main stream and also groomed Emmy Lou Harris for stardom though Harris had rejected country music till then
    Of course the California rock sound came about mostly through the migration of Dylan inspired folkies from New York to LA, all donning new clothes costumes and electrified instruments to push the Dylan inspired protest sound going around.
    Jim Morrison was rejected by them and thus not invited to Monterey because his group was apart from all of that.
    So, the times are changin and big brother is behind that change – this totally lost on all the young souls who wish to blame “Boomers” for every bad thing in the world now.

  128. Today’s music, film and whiteless entertainment is primarily in your face glorification of GlobalHomo and Magic Negroz.
    I tried to watch Amazon Original called ‘The Wheel of Time’, it’s another imaginary world where the few dozen dark haired whites that exist are demons, It’s as if the future human race went 100% dark/black peepooz and blond blue eyed whites went extinct centuries before.
    Another disappointment was a Netflix Original ‘The Power of the Dog’, it took one hour to lead up to a coming of age gay pedophile movie. Just another in a endless release cycle where glorification of GlobalHomo and Magic Negroz is the way forward.
    Whites shall not audition or apply.
    I’m glad I use hacked accounts and don’t have to pay for this cRap.

    • Replies: @Truth
  129. Svevlad says:
    @Angharad

    Butthurt much?

    Man didn’t mention for a single moment that he was a bad singer, as a matter of fact, you could say that he praised him, even, and simply noticed that a lot of boomers simply didn’t like him when they were young, because they were too busy doing drugs and whatever degeneracies they could think of

  130. Thomasina says:
    @Mike Tre

    Dylan was certainly elevated because of his Jewish ethnicity, as was Streisand right behind him.

  131. Anon[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @nosquat loquat

    Frank Zappa was Arab- American.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  132. Von Rho says:

    What do Americans know about Italian cuisine? Pasta with ketchup served on styrofoam plates. At least Italians do not accept to sing on playback, a rule in German-speaking countries.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  133. Truth says:
    @CelestiaQuesta

    …Get used to it. It WILL get worse, MUCH worse; and quickly.

  134. Nothing beats music to death better than chosenites trying to interpret great songs.

    Here’s William Shitner doing ‘Rocket Man’.

  135. ricpic says:

    Frank Sinatra was FORMAL. Let me explain. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood way way back in the late ’50’s early ’60’s. The mark of an Italian man in those neighborhoods was his adherence to a code. And the code was that there is a CONTROLLED way of presenting yourself. THAT is the mark of confident masculinity. Whatever you think, whatever your resentments, your anger, even your joy, all that is kept inside, under tight restraint. How did this manifest in Sinatra? To repeat, a very formal presentation. Confident but formal. And not a hint of rebellion. Which marks him as diametrically opposed to the Rock ‘N Roll “artists” who followed him. He also had a great voice. A LIVED voice. The voice of maturity. That’s gone now. Lost. Are there mature men out there? Of course. But they are NOT represented in or presented by the culture. Sinatra was the last cultural embodiment of the grownup.

    • Thanks: Arthur MacBride, gsjackson
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  136. Thomasina says:
    @Curle

    “Solzhenitsyn seems to suggest that nationalists die for their country, internationalists hire someone else to die for the country.”

    Internationalists use propaganda (fear, lies, patriotism, shame) to suck in the nationalists to do their bidding. Deceitful, psychopathic manipulation.

    They should be swinging.

  137. @Rich

    That drug-induced, word salad speaks to boomers.

    • Replies: @Bubba
  138. hillaire says:

    Apparently ole blue eyes (sinatra) fell foul of the hollywood ‘jews’ that owned him… having bad mouthed the wrong potentate and was thus limited in his career ….

    so neck deep in dog shit, he made the kosher nostra call to some friendly fiends/ jewish gangsters that had returned to their ancestral desert ways of slaving and pimping and extorting…… in the desert..

    and so of to Vegas he went…

    Elvis did Vegas too, but died youngish on the lavatory… his last push for stardom, one might say…

  139. Liza says:
    @anonymous

    Those two can’t sing, Dylan being only slightly worse than the bad tempered one with the thin voice.

  140. SafeNow says:
    @Angharad

    NO singer has ever, ever had better phrasing and inflection

    Yes, that’s it. A singer with technical training once told me it’s the “subtext.” Joanie Mitchell comes to mind — she was no Sinatra, but a comment often made was that you never knew where she was going with her inflections and interpretations – – she delightfully surprises you.

    Anyway, my parents were not famous but they once managed to get close-up Sinatra tickets for a concert near the end of his career. This was a major highlight for them. The golfing buddy of my father who arranged the tickets told my father: You and your wife will be Tony and Angie that night – – that’s how I got the tickets. Oh well, a small lie to make Mom and Dad very happy!

  141. Jimmy1969 says:

    Lets just say this; this rambling nonsense would never be published in Rolling Stone Magazine.

  142. Curle says:
    @Rich

    Ok, don’t just sit on the sidelines shooting spitballs, offer comparatively better lyrics seeking to express the ideas, emotions and atmosphere Dylan tried to capture, unsuccessfully in your opinion. Hell, I’d be impressed by any song you want to offer where the lyricist confronts his former younger political and strident self critically as Dylan did with My Back Pages. By my measure that’s likely to be an incredibly short list. Sneering, especially at song lyrics is easy and lazy.

    I can’t wait for your review of Graham Parson’s Love Hurts. I mean, what a silly idea, right? A seven year old could write it, am I right?

    • Replies: @Rich
  143. hillaire says:
    @Thomasina

    What about Leonard Cohen?….. because Joni Mitchell who thought Dylan a fake and was quite vocal about that… believed Cohen wrote Booby Zimmermans pabulum…..

    Streisand could sing, but she also had a muzzle and one can’t help speculating whether that was the source of her ‘talent’..

    somewhat like Phil Inspect-her’s hair-piece or Neil Diamonds 24 carat comb-over… or Gene Simmons stilts and signed Anne Frank…

    Talismans..

    • Agree: Peripatetic Itch
  144. @Verymuchalive

    Ah, OK thanks. I had not seen that as I’ve been at TUR since the B737 bizzo only.

  145. @Bookish1

    My theory is if Dylan wasn’t a jew you would never have heard his name

    And my theory is if Nancy Sinatra…

    • Replies: @D. K.
  146. @Mike Tre

    The way the Jews promoted Bob Dylan as a “great singer” is very similar to the way they are now promoting and gaslighting us about their “great vaccines.” Only the tone-death and brain-dead are buying it.

  147. Thanks for this enjoyable review of Francisco Sinatra/American music.
    Thanks also for learned and insightful comments.

    Wishing the very best to ordinary decent Americans to recover their Nation.

    Some people mention Irish, so thought to post Van the Man with the Chieftains, in Grateful Memory and Tribute to Paddy Maloney R.I.P. recently.
    Don’t forget your own ones.

    • Thanks: CelestiaQuesta
  148. Reading this was a waste of time.

    • Agree: Emslander
  149. D. K. says:
    @acementhead

    A man who was then dating one of my sisters, circa thirty years ago, also was working on a project about Frank, with his (excessively loyal) elder daughter, Nancy. According to this acquaintance of mine, Nancy told him: “You know, people can say a lot of things about my father– but they can’t PROVE it!”

    • LOL: acementhead
  150. @gsjackson

    Maybe Bennet’s version is definitive, but the only version I ever heard of ‘San Francisco’ on the radio is by Sinatra.

    He should have done every city. Newark, New Orleans, Houston, Bozeman, Peoria, Bloomington, San Diego, Salt Lake City, etc.

    My favorite city song is “I Love LA” by Randy Newman.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  151. Sparkon says:
    @Sparkon

    I wrote and corrected

    Witness schmaltzy showman Liberace big band leader Lawrence Welk, who had a #1 hit in 1960 with “Calcutta,”

    Liberace was a flamboyant and schmaltzy showman alright, but he never had a #1 hit. According to IMDB, The Liberace Show was on TV from 1952-1969, while The Lawrence Welk Show aired from 1951 to 1982.

  152. loren says:
    @obwandiyag

    he thinks too much and draws too many conclusions, then brings in films and ‘italians did well in sports n show biz’–really? because of frank and golden joe [that song is by a jew].

  153. loren says:
    @Anonymous

    Help me out here: when did Dylan’s “artistic well” “run dry’?

    Rumored to be addicted to heroin [listen carefully to ‘country pies’ word] he did a 29? minute album. to get it to almost 30 minutes, there was an instrumental and a rerecording of a trad tune, that he claimed copyright to.

    then there was a series of weak albums, ending with the sound track. Then an upswing w Planet waves and Blood, 2 albums of stronger, original songs.

    then the songs again become weak. 1975–on.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  154. D. K. says:
    @Priss Factor

    I first visited Los Angeles in 1982, for Christmas. I later moved there, but left it for good in June 2004. The L.A. of 1983 is nearly as dead and buried as the Herculaneum of A.D. 41!

  155. Z-man says:

    Sinatra’s greatest works were the albums he recorded in the mid-fifties, with the producer/arranger Nelson Riddle after his Oscar win for From Here to Eternity. He had a few bigger hits in the ’60’s but his legend is cemented from those recording sessions with Riddle in the 1950’s.
    I always liked Dean Martin the best because he seemed not to take himself too seriously and that translated into being really cool.
    He was good in a really bad movie, Kiss Me Stupid (1964), playing himself (as Dino) and he had a great line in it when asked about The Beatles being so popular. ‘Beatles? I can sing better than all four of them!’ (Grin)

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  156. loren says:
    @Dumbo

    artistically Bob D was finished by 1974 or 1975 w the Blood album.

    after that the albums were mostly weak or worse. I know. I listened.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  157. Doris Day is my favorite when it comes to a beautiful lady who could sing and act like no other.
    She was swindled out of \$28 million by her Jewish husband and his Jewish lawyer buddy.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2019/05/13/when-doris-day-and-her-fortune-got-taken-for-a-ride/

  158. Thomasina says:
    @Priss Factor

    Ah, but the Irish are also known for their playfulness, their jigs and reels. It’s in the genes.

    • Replies: @Emerging Majority
  159. D. K. says:
    @loren

    Sinatra once came in at just 26 minutes and 23 seconds, for an even dozen songs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinatra%27s_Swingin%27_Session!!!

  160. loren says:
    @D. K.

    I knew someone who claimed that his family rented to the Sinatras in New Jersey.
    Franks mom was a mid wife and illegal abortionist, according to Mr X.

    Your take suports part of this. I assume franks granny was a mid wife.

    • Replies: @D. K.
  161. Growing up we heard many different kinds of music in the house. From Ernest Tubb to June Christy to Gilbert and Sullivan. Sinatra was around but I always preferred Bobby Darin when he was singing standards with a big band. Unfortunately he started thinking he was Bob Dylan and turned out lots of crap towards the end of his career.

    I never really thought of Woodstock as a great event of the Sixties. I’ve always considered Altamont a more important moment. It effectively ended the bullshit peace and love nonsense which came before it except for those who were too drug addled to smell the coffee.

  162. @Curle

    Thanks for sharing. “Don’t think twice its all Right” is laden with sublime insights. Perhaps Jim should someday watch “The Magic Christian”, a movie depicting Peter Sellers as the richest man in England Ringo Starr as that land’s poorest Hippie. Morris, the Kight, ticketed me for that one in its first public play in L.A. back in ’71.

  163. @Thomasina

    Sometimes it’s also in the jeans.

  164. tito says: • Website

    I used to believe that America could not survive much longer; now, I fear it will.

  165. @Thomasina

    Hilarious. Both barrels. You and your acolyte deserve each other. By expressing your misgivings on this particular site, you are setting yourself up to be hit by flak by individuals who swim in different waters. Dylan composed more great lyrics than I have heard from the lips, hands or whatever from the gamut of musicians from the last 40 years. But perhaps ignorance is its own reward.

    • Replies: @Thomasina
  166. Thomasina says:
    @Priss Factor

    But Dylan wasn’t “rock”. He was “folk”. He idolized Woodie Guthrie. From his Wiki page:

    “In the late 1950s and early 1960s, a new generation of young people were inspired by folk singers such as Guthrie. These “folk revivalists” became more politically aware in their music than those of the previous generation. The American Folk Revival was beginning to take place, focused on the issues of the day, such as the civil rights movement and Free Speech Movement. Pockets of folk singers were forming around the country in places such as Cambridge, Massachusetts, and the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City.

    One of Guthrie’s visitors at Greystone Park was the 19-year-old Bob Dylan, who idolized Guthrie. Dylan wrote of Guthrie’s repertoire: “The songs themselves were really beyond category. They had the infinite sweep of humanity in them.” After learning of Guthrie’s whereabouts, Dylan regularly visited him.”

    Dylan would have been on the Left, as were most Jews, and Woodie was a communist. So it was a natural progression for Dylan to follow his lead and sing about deeper issues.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  167. @Thomasina

    But Dylan wasn’t “rock”. He was “folk”. He idolized Woodie Guthrie. From his Wiki page

    Dylan was chameleon-like and kept changing.

    As a boy, he loved country music. Then, he got into Rock n Roll. He also fell in love with blues. It was later that he discovered Woody Guthrie and joined the folk movement. Good for him as he wasn’t cut out to be a typical rock n roll star or pop idol. Didn’t have the looks, moves, the voice. But in folk, he could become someone with a stab at ‘authenticity’. All his ‘flaws’ or disadvantages could be inverted into signs of rawness and verve. But the thing is Dylan was always more and wanted to be more.

    Dylan later recounted how he first heard the Beatles on the radio and really dug what they were doing but didn’t say this to his peers in the folk community who were into purity of simplicity and do-goodery.

    Then, bands like the Animals(from Britain) took American blues music and ramped it up to another level. And Byrds and others were taking Dylan songs and electrifying them.
    It was then that his days as a folkie was pretty much over. Not that he gave up on folky elements, which always remained with him. But he also returned to his rock n roll and blues roots. He went ‘electric’ at Newport folk festival and caused a huge scandal. He was booed by many as traitor, who sold out and went commercial. Difficult to imagine now but many progressives back then were hostile to rock music as capitalist, commercial, exploitative, and escapist. Dylan was traumatized by the whole affair, much like Lennon would be a year later with the ‘We are bigger than Jesus’ remark.

    Still, Dylan stuck to his guns and his albums, BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME and especially HIGHWAY 61 REVISTED and BLONDE ON BLONDE were truly rock albums. Of course, the media coined the term ‘folk rock’, which some accepted while others didn’t.
    He rocked hard in the concerts of 1966, with some diehard folkies in the crowd jeering him as ‘Judas’ for having left folk for rock. Dylan showed how folk roots and rock(as personal expression) could be fused together.

    If Dylan had ended his career in 1964 as a folkie, he would be footnote in music history. It’s his forays into Rock in 65 and 66 that really established him as a giant in 20th century music and, without a doubt, the greatest artist of rock music.

    • LOL: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Thomasina
    , @BuelahMan
  168. @loren

    artistically Bob D was finished by 1974 or 1975 w the Blood album.
    after that the albums were mostly weak or worse. I know. I listened.

    Arguably, BLOOD ON THE TRACKS was Dylan’s last great album, though TIME OUT OF MIND is near-great.

    Still, if much of his music sounds inferior following BLOOD ON THE TRACKS, it’s because we judge him by a higher standard. There are plenty of tracks on STREET LEGAL, SLOW TRAIN COMING, INFIDELS, and EMPIRE BURLESQUE that would be outstanding if by another artist.

    I love these songs:

  169. @Z-man

    I always liked Dean Martin the best because he seemed not to take himself too seriously and that translated into being really cool.

    Martin being a bit snotty.

  170. Fr. John says:

    Sinatra was a tool of the Jews. THAT’s the ‘mafia’ connection.

    FTN did a ‘deep dive.’

    https://therightstuff.biz/2020/12/13/ftn-365-fly-me-to-the-jews/

    Ol’ Blue Eyes also sang FLAT.

    Meh.

  171. loren says:
    @Mr.Turner

    well how else can ya get anywhere in their sphere?

    ask mel gibson and marlon, who apologized for that nasty statement.
    however when one of their own says similar, they are ok with it–joel stein on jews in show biz.

  172. loren says:
    @TGD

    you mean one song.

    the gal to the left is italian or italian heritage. she had an illegal abortion due to her bedding bob.
    her sis hated ‘twerp’.

    the song ‘ballad in plain d’ is about the 3 of them.

  173. loren says:

    Someone mentioned Zappa. He had a mixed heritage, according to wiki and was arrested for making a naughty recording [sexual sounds].
    Im not kidding.

    he married a half? jew. ms sloatman.

    he insisted there was no left bias in the media and was critical of
    catholic church
    anti def league
    fascists

    he was of french italian greek heritage>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  174. D. K. says:
    @loren

    Yes, Frank’s mom, Dolly, did perform illegal abortions. She and Dean Paul Martin, Jr., met the same fate as one another, and did so in the same place:

    ***

    On January 6, 1977, Dolly Sinatra had invited friend Mrs. Anthony Carboni to join her in a private flight, provided by son Frank Sinatra, to come to Vegas for a show and gambling, but shortly after take-off from Palm Springs Municipal Airport, the Gates Learjet 24 crashed into a 10,000-foot (3,048-meter) snowy mountaintop ridge, in the eastern portion of the San Gorgonio Wilderness, killing all aboard. Dolly Sinatra was 80 years old. [23][24] [25][26] It was later concluded the crash was due to crew error, that killed the four people aboard. Also killed were pilots, Donald J. Weier, 36, and Jerold W. Foley, 33, both of Las Vegas, Nevada.[27] Because of darkness, freezing temperatures, and rugged terrain at the crash site, it took days for authorities to recover all the bodies. Dolly Sinatra was later interred at Desert Memorial Park in nearby Cathedral City, California, where her husband, Marty Sinatra, was buried nearly a decade earlier.

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_Sinatra#Death

    ***

    Martin, an avid pilot, obtained his pilot’s license at age 16 and became an officer in the California Air National Guard in 1980.[7] He entered active duty for officer training in the U.S. Air Force under the Palace Chase program (i.e., direct entry into the Air National Guard or Air Force Reserve), was commissioned as a second lieutenant, and completed Undergraduate Pilot Training at Columbus AFB, MS in 1981. Following transition training in the F-4 Phantom II jet fighter at Homestead AFB, FL in the 308TFS, he was assigned to the California Air National Guard’s 196th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 163rd Tactical Fighter Group, at March AFB, California, flying the F-4C Phantom II as a Traditional (i.e., part-time) Air National Guardsman. He eventually rose to the rank of captain.[10]

    Martin died in 1987 when his F-4 departed March Air Force Base, California, on a routine training mission and crashed in California’s San Bernardino Mountains during a snowstorm, killing him and his weapons systems officer, Captain Ramon Ortiz.[11][12][13][14] He was 35 years old.[7]

    Martin is buried in the Los Angeles National Cemetery, a U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs cemetery in Los Angeles, California.[15]

    ***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Paul_Martin#Aviation_career_and_death

  175. bjondo says:
    @Anon

    Don’t know what Zappa thought he was.

    Wikipedia says this:

    Zappa was born on December 21, 1940, in Baltimore, Maryland. His mother, Rose Marie (née Colimore), was of Italian (Neapolitan and Sicilian) and French ancestry; his father, whose name was anglicized to Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, Sicily, with Greek and Arab ancestry.[nb 2]

  176. Rich says:
    @Curle

    I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, but most pop music, Mr Zimmerman’s included, is just popcorn. When I listen to the stuff I thought was great as a kid, I shake my head at the garbage lyrics and often poor skills of the “artists”. But a guy like Buddy Holly, with his pretty meaningless lyrics, makes Dylan look like a mook. At least the music of my father’s era, Sinatra and Martin and Bennett and the rest of those guys, had great musicians behind some of their silly lyrics. The lyrics to the Stones’ ‘Sympathy for the Devil’, or the Allman Brothers ‘Whipping Post’ are less ridiculous than anything Dylan came up with. Now, I’m going to put on some Chopin and clear my head. Thinking of all these rock lyrics has made me ill.

    • Agree: Fr. John
    • Thanks: GazaPlanet
  177. Thomasina says:
    @Priss Factor

    “…without a doubt, the greatest artist of rock music.” I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  178. aandrews says:
    @Jim Christian

    “Bob is not authentic at all. He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception.”
    — Joni Mitchell

    Nonetheless, I like “Tangled Up in Blue”.

    • LOL: Fr. John
  179. Thomasina says:
    @Emerging Majority

    “By expressing your misgivings on this particular site, you are setting yourself up to be hit by flak by individuals who swim in different waters.”

    Who are these individuals who swim in different waters?

  180. @ everyone

    Thanks everyone. That was a gas listening to all those old recordings.

    As a great fan of Sinatra, I give you Canada’s incomparable Patricia O’Callaghan:

  181. Bubba says:
    @Semi-Employed White Guy

    Certainly not all boomers, just the a\$\$holes (as in every generation) who think they are intelligent.

    Bob Rafelson and Bert Schneider’s made up boy band “The Monkees” sold more albums than the Beatles and Bob Dylan in 1967 at the height of the “counter-culture” revolution.

    The whole obsession with the 1960’s “music” is asinine – a bunch of uncriticized, spoiled brats given obscene amounts of attention & money instead of a humiliating, good ass-kicking.

    • Agree: Rich
    • Replies: @aandrews
    , @aandrews
  182. aandrews says:
    @Bubba

    (4K) Jimi Hendrix – Killing Floor (Stockholm 1969)

  183. @aandrews

    Jimi.

    Still astonishing after all these years.

  184. Half Back says:
    @nosquat loquat

    Tony Iommi had one of the greatest impact on modern music- thus heralding Heavy metal before their was any.
    Black Sabbath
    Finished with my woman ’cause
    She couldn’t help me with my mind
    People think I’m insane because
    I am frowning all the time
    All day long I think of things
    But nothing seems to satisfy
    Think I’ll lose my mind
    If I don’t find something to pacify
    Can you help me
    Occupy my brain?
    Oh yeah
    I need someone to show me
    The things in life that I can’t find
    I can’t see the things that make
    True happiness, I must be blind

  185. @geokat62

    I don’t think PF is doing this. But the columnist might be. Rather like male US Army officers ( retired ) posing as young Syrian lesbians.

  186. @Verymuchalive

    Thanks. Interesting comparisons.

    Ilana Mercer and Michelle Malkin produce quality work, even if you might not always agree with them on individual points.

    Both strike me as trite writers and unprincipled weathervanes, polishing up and feeding back their audience’s prejudices. More sneaky than Buchanan and Derbyshire, but both have been dependable #ChinaDidIt lickspittles of Uncle Sam.

    It’s telling how they and their fans seldom respond to criticism. The substance of my comments under all four largely go unrefuted, as was the case with the departed Engelhardt, Lang, and Napolitano.

    After several years, The Unz Review roster has clarified in my view between true dissidents and Narrative-managing posers. It’s helpful to keep track of what authors say (or avoid) over time.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  187. BuelahMan says:
    @Priss Factor

    To me the crucial term is “Rock”, of which, Dylan has no idea. He covered several rock songs early on, but then basically started the folk music craze of the 60’s. Is that really rock?

    Not in my estimation. Nor in his, since he said this in 1985:

    The thing about rock’n’roll is that for me anyway it wasn’t enough … There were great catch-phrases and driving pulse rhythms … but the songs weren’t serious or didn’t reflect life in a realistic way. I knew that when I got into folk music, it was more of a serious type of thing. The songs are filled with more despair, more sadness, more triumph, more faith in the supernatural, much deeper feelings.

  188. @Greta Handel

    Both strike me as trite writers and unprincipled weathervanes,

    If that were true, why are they writing for UR, a marginalised, low-paying website. Michelle Malkin also writes for the even more vilified Vdare. Her views against immigration and for real conservatism have been consistent for many years now. She has consistently opposed offshoring and the importation of H1bs inter alia. This has severely limited her opportunities in the MSM. If she were unprincipled and trite, she would have kept her mouth shut and still be making megabucks in the MSM.
    Likewise with Ilana Mercer. She is one of the few ex-South African liberals who has recanted her views. It would have been easier and more lucrative for her to have kept on peddling liberal cant.

    but both have been dependable #ChinaDidIt lickspittles of Uncle Sam.

    Last year the US Balance of Trade deficit reached a record high – \$679bn, about half of which was with China. High trade deficits have been the case for many years now. If White Americans are to have a future , then they have to have a viable economy. That obviously means preventing offshoring, both by legal measures on American companies, and also high tariff barriers. That will inevitably mean conflict with the principal beneficiary of the present situation – China.
    If insouciant White Americans don’t grasp this, then they’re doomed.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    , @Curle
  189. @Verymuchalive

    I won’t drag any more of it into this thread, but you can see what I mean by searching for my comments under their articles, including each of their last.

    It’s not merely coincidental that their readership – as indicated by the number of comments – seems to be dwindling.

  190. @geokat62

    Jung-Freud starts out great in GUNBUSTER, one of a handful of notable anime works(though seriously marred by its lead character of clutzy Noriko chosen to save the Earth), but is relegated to the background in later episodes. A loss. She should have been the lead character. GUNBUSTER is half-great, half-cruddy(largely because of Noriko). Still, the best Heinleinian work in sci-fi. Beats STARSHIP TROOPERS.

    Great moment when Jung-Freud and Kazumi first meet.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  191. @Von Rho

    What do Americans know about Italian cuisine?

    But Pizza was improved in the US. And Chicago came up with the pan pizza.

    • Replies: @Von Rho
  192. @Rich

    Dylan’s art was he didn’t need to be arty to create art.

    Easiest way to come across as arty is to add arty stuff. Like Moody Blues with classical music. Make it sound fancy.

    But to speak in the vernacular but make us feel new things and see things anew, that is true art.

    An example. Sidney Lumet’s PAWNBROKER borrows or copies every art film cliche from Europe. It looks arty but is totally fake.
    Scorsese’s MEAN STREETS is raw and gritty but conveys the truth of the environment of small town hoods. It is real art.

    Btw, ‘Visions of Johanna’ is maybe the great work of art in Rock.

    • Agree: Etruscan Film Star
    • Disagree: Rich
  193. geokat62 says:
    @Priss Factor

    Priss, when you finally get your blog, you should consider reposting some of your lengthy comments to get them the recognition they deserve, instead of leaving them buried in some lengthy comment section.

  194. GeneralRipper [AKA "Nemo me impune lacessit"] says:

    Sinatra had an attitude and a style, but his voice is nothing really special.

    I like some of his stuff to be sure, but if you want to hear a greaseball guinea with truly great voice, check out Mario Lanza.

    On the other hand, this guy had a truly incredible voice. In addition to being a Marine MP and a Scuba record holder.

  195. Von Rho says:
    @Priss Factor

    Exactly, pizza came from southern Italy and was unknown even in the north of that country until the 1950s. But it is a dish for the poor (because they mix wheat and meat), as is the cuisine of much of Italy. The US has spread other cuisines and habits of poor people often selling them as healthy or created by a “wise” culture: tacos, chop suey, sushi, etc. (except kebab, which was spread by Greek and Lebanese immigrants, not Muslims).

  196. Skeptikal says:
    @Curle

    I think a lot of the “intellectuals” here forget, or never knew, that popular music was about dancing to it for a long, long time. Not sitting around theorizing. In night clubs where the greats were performing, and in other types of venues, the action was on the dance floor.

    Of course those Sinatra concerts with the bobby-soxers going crazy were a precursor to the Beatles mania.

    I think maybe it was the advent of the folk revival and the the folk-rock era, when people suddenly were happy to sit in their seats and just listen.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  197. @Sparkon

    I think it’s just a question of the author being mostly ignorant about the popular music that preceded Rock ‘n’ Roll, and apparently having no appreciation for it.

    One can appreciate something but still not care for it.
    It’s like it’d be crazy for anyone not to appreciate Beethoven. But I can’t get into his music. It’s stellar, it’s great, it’s awesome. But it leaves me cold. Same with Jean Renoir in cinema. A giant, true. But I can’t get into even his greatest works.

    There’s something about urban popular music in the first half of the 20th century that seems a bit too pat and ‘safe’. 19th century American music sounds truer(raw and unfiltered, like the songs about Jesse James), and it took the rise of Rock to recover that sense of eccentricity.

    Perhaps, in the first half of the century, the mass urbanization and development of a unified culture(especially with all those immigrants) called for a kind of homogenization. This was a time when Irving Berlin and other Jews wrote very generic American songs. A lot of music of the Jazz Age was really watered down jazz, made ‘safe’ with cultural soap. It’s like music as campbell chicken soup.

    Some of them were great and even became classics, but something personal, rooted, and quirky seems to have gotten repressed or stamped out. That element partly re-emerged with Rock.

    • LOL: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Sparkon
  198. @ricpic

    Yes, the style of formality made figures like Sinatra more mature and manly in presentation. But it also made them impersonal in their conformism to ‘bourgeois’ social expectations. It was always dressing up for a performance.

    In contrast, there is an intimacy between rockers and their audience. It could be John Lennon and his childhood memories in “In My Life” or “Strawberry Fields Forever”. It could be Bowie relating how weird he is, in and out. It could be Pink Floyd sharing their warped view of reality. It could be Dylan fuming about some stupid bitch he knew. It could be Stones ruminating about some strange girl in “Ruby Tuesday” or Paul Simon’s wistful snapshots of “America”. There was directness between rockers and their listeners whereas there was always the dinner-coat barrier between men like Sinatra and his fans.

    With guys like Sinatra and Bennett, formality/standard came first, personality second. In other words, their main focus was to sing good. But as they had different voices, they ended up with different personalities as well. Still, Sinatra wasn’t trying to be SINATRA. He was trying to be the best singer possible and ending up being a Sinatric version of the ideal.
    In contrast, Dylan was trying first and foremost to be Dylan, and Lennon was trying to be Lennon, a unique personal voice. Personality was the objective than the byproduct of the endeavor in 60s Rock.

    I can appreciate the formal style, but categories must dissolve to go deeper.

    • Disagree: Etruscan Film Star
    • Replies: @Rich
    , @Presocratic
  199. Rich says:
    @Priss Factor

    I’m amazed that you think there was some kind of intimacy between rockers like Lennon, Bowie(actually a pop act), stadium rockers like Floyd or folk singers like Dylan and Simon with their audiences. They were kids writing jingles for other kids. There was nothing “deep” about anything they wrote and most of the musicians weren’t all that talented. I could see a 17 year old back in 1977 writing, or believing, that these long hairs had “unique personal voices”, but as a grown man 30 years after rock died? Sorry Mr Factor your love of these quaint troubadours makes you seem a little silly. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, the world needs silly folks too, I suppose.

  200. Curle says:
    @Verymuchalive

    “ This has severely limited her opportunities in the MSM.”

    Your point is well taken. Weathervane Malkin is not. She started out being published in places like the Seattle Times (back in the ‘80s/90s?) and is now reduced to writing in the minor leagues all during an era of newspapers falling all over themselves to publish People of Color. Her career trajectory screams ‘Not a Weathervane’!

    • Thanks: Verymuchalive
  201. Sparkon says:
    @Skeptikal

    Yes, a lot of it was about dancing. Thanks for the good comments.

    It’s often overlooked or forgotten that Rock ‘n’ Roll is connected to the Big Band era by the Jitterbug.

    Jitterbug is a generalized term used to describe swing dancing. It is often synonymous with the lindy hop dance.
    […]
    The term jitterbug was originally a ridicule used by black patrons to describe whites who started to dance the lindy hop, as they were dancing faster and jumpier than was intended, like “jittering bugs”, although it quickly lost its negative connotation as the more erratic version caught on. Both the lindy hop and the “jitterbug” became popular outside Harlem when the dance was featured in Hollywood films…

    Benny Goodman, “Minnie’s in the Money,”
    The Gang’s All Here
    20th Century Fox, 1943

    Well, all this talk about Rock & Roll, and no mention so far of Chuck Berry, one of its founding fathers, if not the king, so let’s just get right into it…

    Chuck Berry, “Sweet Little 16”
    Saturday Night Beech-Nut Show February 22, 1958

    Well, after that in 1958, you might think there couldn’t be anything like this from Shelley Fabares in 1962, but indeed there was…

    Shelley Fabares, “Johnny Angel” 1961
    The Donna Reed Show

    The upside-down year of 1961 was a great year for pop music, and the 5-year period 1960 – 1964 arguably the greatest ever, edging out 1965-1969.

  202. @Priss Factor

    Some shrewd observations here. I love Sinatra’s “Summer Wind,” “It was a Very Good Year,” and his rendition of “I’ve Got You Under My Skin,” among many others. But there is at bottom a certain conformity and absence of heresy and subordination of individuality in his work. The rock musicians you mentioned and others gave full vent to personal expression and the creative impulse.

  203. Music is music and ideology is ideology. The emotions characterizing an ideology can be put to music, but vulgar musical preferences are those “harmonizing” with the prevailing fashions of the crowd in a time and place. Later 60s music is all about the Jews’ New Left mass media induced hysteria and nostalgia by those caught up in that time. That is what makes the obsession with these songs so comical. These people with their vitiated sensibilities are no longer really capable of appreciating beautiful and charming music. What George Orwell said about the prevalence of cranks among socialists explains a lot about the “tastes” of these people.

    The great danger is that these people and their children have supplanted nearly all the people who really do value art and music because they have some genuine understanding of it, we will see more and more iconoclasm. Classical music is too “white” – how far is that from saying Beethoven’s music leave me cold? Not far at all.

  204. Later 60s music is all about the Jews’ New Left mass media induced hysteria and nostalgia by those caught up in that time.

    No, Rock music threw a monkey wrench into leftist politics because it was too capitalist and consumerist.

    What happened is leftism became more pop-culture oriented.

    Remember Frankfurt School critiqued popular culture as capitalist propaganda that commoditized everything. It wasn’t keen on jazz either.

    When Dylan went electric, it was traumatic for many on the left. It was like a redneck seeing his daughter marry a negro.

    But Dylan stuck to his guns.

    If most rockers are ‘liberal’ or ‘democratic’, it’s by default. They don’t care for politics but associate conservatives with stuff-shirt lamos.

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
  205. @Priss Factor

    You have this fantasy that these people are “cool” – you really believe it. “the real leftists felt betrayed” – oh, right, yes they always are claiming that.

    Here’s what happened: the ideas of the nutty hippies in the Socialist movement that Orwell described as cranks were mainstreamed by Jewish controlled mass media. These sorts of people had children who will watch medieval knights ride to rap music and watch films like the Gatsby with DiCaprio. They are devoid of any tolerance for aesthetics that aren’t in line with whatever insane fashion the Jews are promoting at the moment. That is not merely youthful ignorance and herd-animal behavior. That is a conscious choice to shut-down and shut out all genuine artistic sensibility.

    Over 25 years ago, back in high school, I heard a girl, some girl with parents from India, say that Elvis is embarrassing but did not feel that way about the late 60s bands. What is embarrassing is that people think that pop music in the late 60s had some sort of transcendental epoch making significance because the Jews running the TV and movies told them so.

    The children of these people are actually capable of destroying classical music as being “white” and “stodgy” if they get enough power. “Beethoven leaves me cold” is just a step away from young white women and negro youths asserting that classical music is racist and should be suppressed.

  206. You have this fantasy that these people are “cool” – you really believe it. “the real leftists felt betrayed” – oh, right, yes they always are claiming that.

    I don’t even believe in the concept of ‘cool’. It’s a style, sort of fun as fantasy, but it has zero value. It’s like sugar high. But style is integral to entertainment, and people need some escapism.
    And no, real people are not ‘cool’. They are too real, too flawed. The real Sean Connery wasn’t cool. It was just 007 fantasy.

    Here’s what happened: the ideas of the nutty hippies in the Socialist movement that Orwell described as cranks were mainstreamed by Jewish controlled mass media.

    That’s not how capitalism works. Fashions change rapidly in capitalism, and in a few yrs, hippies were out. They were seen as embarrassing, and it was all about urban afro-homo disco where one had to dress up slick. And then, disco became an embarrassment and led to big hair 80s band and ‘new wave’.
    Sure, there was boomer nostalgia about Woodstock and etc, but pop industry moved on to MTV and hyper-capitalism. Socialism? That was totally gone by the 80s. Boomers took control of government in the 1990s with Clinton, and what was that about? NAFTA and Free Trade, deregulation of Wall Street. Have you been asleep? Today, the 1% has more wealth than the entire middle class. And you worry about ‘socialist hippies’? The main cultural expression is quasi-fascist superhero movies where god-like super-beings blow up entire cities.

    These sorts of people had children who will watch medieval knights ride to rap music and watch films like the Gatsby with DiCaprio.

    That only proves the capitalist culture keeps evolving and changing according to fashion. New Hollywood of independent voices gave way to George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, and blockbusters.
    60s ideal was to make the music personal. Later, the music just became industrial. Today, pop music sounds like something made in a chem lab. DiCaprio’s GATSBY is the product of globo-homo sensibility.

    You can see these developments as outgrowths of what happened in the 60s but they can also be seen as counter-developments. Young ones got tired of Rock-as-Art and Film-as-Art and surrendered to music and movies mostly as shameless commerce.

    They are devoid of any tolerance for aesthetics that aren’t in line with whatever insane fashion the Jews are promoting at the moment.

    But this can’t be said of 60s Rock. There were various styles. Its defining feature was to be personal, to seek your own truth. So, there was a variety of music from folky ballads to bluesy rock to Northern soul to country rock to lots more. Zombies did their thing, and so did The Band, whose album titles THE BAND is one of the greatest works of the period.

    The problem is YOU are devoid of any tolerance for art beyond your narrow definition of ‘correct culture’, one supposedly devoid of Jewish influence. Sure, Jewish influence could be negative and corrupting, but there were lotsa genuine Jewish contribution to ideas and music. What honest person would deny “Bridge over Troubled Water” is just some stupid Jewish propaganda?
    You see, you sound just like those ‘woke’ people who sum up Western Culture as just ‘white supremacist dead white male’ culture.

    Even if we are agreed on the more or less deleterious influence of Jewish culture on modern West, good is good, and I’m not going to deny the genius of Bob Dylan… just like my loathing of communism doesn’t prevent me from admiring the Soviet anthem as a titanic piece of music and certain Soviet films as some of the most original and seminal.

    That is not merely youthful ignorance and herd-animal behavior.

    And it will always be around. It could be ‘woke’ idiots programmed by Jews, or Muslim youths sceaming about Allah. Or it could Red Guards running riot, or Hitler Youth blindly obeying Der Fuhrer. Such mentality isn’t limited to a period or Jewish influence.

    Over 25 years ago, back in high school, I heard a girl, some girl with parents from India, say that Elvis is embarrassing but did not feel that way about the late 60s bands. What is embarrassing is that people think that pop music in the late 60s had some sort of transcendental epoch making significance because the Jews running the TV and movies told them so.

    Yes, but even John Lennon admitted as much. He said he really once though Love could change the world.. and later realized it was just a pipe dream. George Harrison despised hippies and said the only thing the Beatles contributed to the 60s was some good music. Bob Dylan didn’t want to be the ‘spokesman of his generation’ and semi-retired for several yrs to raise a family. In CHRONICLES, he recalls how annoyed he was with those who wanted to follow him like some god.

    I agree with all. Woodstock as utopian myth was bunk. Still, there is the music, and what 60s Rock unleashed was the golden age of the song as art form. So many great songs began to flow from that period.

    The children of these people are actually capable of destroying classical music as being “white” and “stodgy” if they get enough power.

    No, the problem with classical music is not that it’s being destroyed. It’s being ignored. Also, if anything really harmed classical music, it was the rise of modernist crap.
    But then, classical music is naturally elitist. It can never be popular music. It will always survive as a form of elitism. I suppose it survives mostly as Movie Music.

    “Beethoven leaves me cold” is just a step away from young white women and negro youths asserting that classical music is racist and should be suppressed.

    I dunno. More likely, the ‘woke’ will say Beethoven was the first rapping bro, and that will make him cool. It’s like Alexander Hamilton was made ‘cool’ with the dumb musical.3

    When I say Beethoven leaves me cold, it’s a matter of taste. I feel much the way about much of rock music. I’d say Pink Floyd is after Dylan as in Rock-as-Art pantheon. They were truly a great band. Do I really like them? No. I can appreciate their music, but as a matter of taste, I prefer even the Carpenters.

  207. It isn’t “capitalism.” Let’s get that out of the way first. You even brought in the Godfather, I suppose Sinatra is an excuse to do that. Art isn’t defined by Marxist talking points. You just wrote an essay which is about how late 60s music is art to you, what came before just doesn’t speak to you.

    “I’ve never been a fan of Frank Sinatra or any popular singer/ musician of the 20th century prior to the advent of Rock. I much prefer 19th century music, such as Civil War songs, to much of 20th century popular music. I can appreciate the talent of men like Gershwin, Armstrong, Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, Kahn, Porter, and etc. I can see how certain artists/entertainers were seminal in some way and highly influential, even on Rock, but have a hard time tuning into their sensibility. (Likewise, despite the wonders of Old Hollywood, movies for me really begins in the 1950s, especially with World Cinema.) This extends even to Rock n Roll. Notice how young people today are interested in Rock Music going back to the 60s, but young people in the 1970s hardly listened to anything prior to the 50s/60s. It suggests a continual musical culture for around seventy years, from early 60s to now, with the decisive break having taken place somewhere in the 50s. I don’t recall any of my friends showing any interest in Elvis or 50s Rock n Roll. As for Sinatra and the like, that was considered grandpa’s music.”

    Here is the problem as you yourself laid it out: you don’t have a genuine appreciation for music. Classical music is ignored because the sensibilities that allowed people to appreciate it are being destroyed as are the minds and souls of the people. Sinatra is a great example of a cult icon being produced by the record companies. Style without much substance. A glorified lounge singer. You’re not a fan of Sinatra. Why am I not a fan of Sinatra? The reason is very simple: his voice isn’t that great, his songs are not really beautiful. It’s full of the post-war spirit of American self-congratulation. Why did we hear about Maria Callas and not greater singers? Was it because she would hang out with Aristotle Onassis? I don’t know but I know that far greater singers than Maria Callas who are, relatively speaking at least, almost obscure. What is called pop music today is pure trash, how did it get to this point? It’s not the market. It’s not the market that has decided to hoist rainbow flags everywhere and put negroes in nearly every advertisement. It’s not capitalism. How did we get this idea of “youth culture” in people’s minds dictated by a gang of Jewish faggots to the masses of people? These people who have no patience, no curiosity, and the willingness to shun almost as a reflex. The people who say they are embarrassed by Elvis or Robert E. Lee or St. Louis. (that is to say embarrassed by the pre-68 order that existed in the 1950s in America, which Elvis is redolent of, even if he doesn’t represent it), embarrassed by pre-Jew dominated America, embarrassed by the heritage of medieval civilization). These people will destroy civilization if they are not checked.

  208. It isn’t “capitalism.” Let’s get that out of the way first. You even brought in the Godfather, I suppose Sinatra is an excuse to do that. Art isn’t defined by Marxist talking points.

    First off, art or ‘art’ today is NOT defined by ‘Marxist talking points’. Have you been around the ‘art’ world today? Total junk being sold to the tune of millions at auctions. It’s total cynical financialization of the art world. It’s all about portfolios of oligarchs and gangsterse.

    Second, even though communist states had a rather dogmatic view of art, one that favored social-realism and more conservative/conventional styles, most Marxist intellectuals in the 20th century were not dogmatic when it came to the arts. Many of them appreciated art as art and believed in art. As liberal Dwight MacDonald said of ‘art for art’s sake’: ‘for what better sake?’

    Indeed, if you peruse most 2oth century Marxist-leaning cultural intellectuals, their views would sound downright conservative. And classical music was a big thing in communist nations. Soviet Union had the best ballet and maybe produced 20th century’s greatest classical composer in Shostakovich.

    Here is the problem as you yourself laid it out: you don’t have a genuine appreciation for music.

    No, I said I don’t always like what I can appreciate. It’s just plain and simple honesty than pretending to like SERIOUS stuff just to come across as deep-minded or some such.

    It’s a matter of taste. There are people who’ve studied serious literature all their lives and appreciate certain writers but still don’t care for them. Plenty of people immersed in classical music have their likes and dislikes REGARDLESS of their esteem of these artists.

    For example, Prokofiev’s symphonies are amazing, but I don’t particularly care for them(and why should I pretend otherwise?). And even though ALEXANDER NEVSKY is superior to his score of IVAN THE TERRIBLE, I prefer the latter.

    Classical music is ignored because the sensibilities that allowed people to appreciate it are being destroyed as are the minds and souls of the people.

    Yeah, capitalism is about consumerism, which is about hedonism and instant thrills. Classical music requires some degree of patience and immersion. Same with serious literature, which is why the novel is also fading as an art form. It’s the result of consumer culture that favors youth tastes and instant pleasure.

    That said, classical music was always elitist. If in the past, more middle class Americans listened to it, it had more to do with status than genuine preference. After WWII, the rise of the middle class led to more folks trying to be ‘cultured’. So, they bought classical music records and paid attention to abstract art. But they weren’t really into it. It’s like many Asians make their kids play classical music because they think it’s ‘high culture’. It’s more about status than real appreciation.

    Also, most of classical music, like most of anything, isn’t that great. Most artists imitate other artists, and few classical composers were truly seminal and great. Personally, I really like Sibelius and Brahms. Beethoven was maybe the greatest composer but there’s too much intensity for my taste. Mozart was genius but too pretty and flowery.
    Now, I’m not gonna pretend to LIKE stuff just to come across as ‘kultured’.

    What is called pop music today is pure trash, how did it get to this point?

    If by today, you mean TODAY RIGHT NOW, that’s probably true, at least the stuff that makes the charts. But I’m sure there are many independent people doing some interesting work.

    It’s not the market that has decided to hoist rainbow flags everywhere and put negroes in nearly every advertisement. It’s not capitalism.

    In a way, you’re right. It’s not like people demanded that there be homos and negroes everywhere in TV shows and advertising. But it is market-related because capitalism isn’t merely about mass demand but who makes the most money and how that money is used. It’s under capitalism that smart Jews made the most money. So, they bought up the media companies and control advertising. Also, homos are prominent in capitalism because they are vain and into fashion and narcissism, which is what capitalism sells. Americans love winners. So, Americans worship smart Jews with money. Americans admire homos that dominate fashion and vanity industry. And in a way, rise of blacks also owes to capitalism cuz blacks are good at sports and funky music. People love sports heroes, and most of them are black. People love funky dance music, and blacks are good at that. So, people are more open to the promotion of blacks and homos as the new ‘icons’ of American success.

    Though Jews played a big role in early communism, their power faded as years passed because community authority isn’t based on who can make the most money and buy up most stuff. So, the Soviet Union became goy dominated and even anti-Jewish in a way. Also, the moralism of communism favored more conservative styles of art and culture. Youth culture was a capitalist import into communist nations that resisted it.

    How did we get this idea of “youth culture” in people’s minds dictated by a gang of Jewish faggots to the masses of people?

    Youth culture is actually quite natural. It’s great to be young, many wanna be young forever. After WWII, rising prosperity meant kids could put off finding work. They could even go to college. They could buy their own records and cars. They could drive around. Sure, Jews exploited it for profit(as did all the modern world), but it was a natural outcome of capitalist prosperity and culture of vanity and hedonism. Beach Boys didn’t do their stuff cuz some ‘Jewish homos’ made them.

    These people will destroy civilization if they are not checked.

    To check them, you need a dynamic culture of your own, and you’re not gonna have it by calling everything fun ‘trash’. While one can say youth culture has generally been negative to society, the fact is tons of great songs came out of the Rock era.

    It’s like even diehard atheists who hate religion must admit Christianity produced some great music and art. And Muslims built some great Mosques. Creativity is an expression of brilliance, even genius, and it can be manifested in so many ways under so many different systems. Even Jews who hate Wagner admit he was a great artist and can’t deny that Leni Riefenstahl had a great eye.

    • Replies: @Presocratic
    , @GazaPlanet
  209. @Priss Factor

    This is a great exchange, and Priss you made the stronger case without question in my view. You understand art and culture (low and high) in a way that is instructive, illuminating and thought-provoking.

  210. @Priss Factor

    All good music is “elitist” in that it requires artistic talent to produce. That is the point and that is the problem. The flourishing of art requires people who AREN’T left cold by Beethoven. Fortunately or not that leftist Francis Ford Coppola had a musician for a father or you probably wouldn’t obsess over The Godfather. With all that music in styles that antedate those idiot “rockstars.” Suffice it to say, anyone who can only relate to Woodstock and later era music does not judge music by what they are hearing, it is part of their cultural identification. Quaint 50s rockers, as “revolutionary” as they might have been, fall outside of that cultural identification. 60s Youth culture was not rebellion. It was the mainstreaming of this cultural identity. These people’s children now fill out the ranks of groups like BLM. Many of the great grandparents of these BLM marchers in the Pacific Northwest were probably in the KKK.

    “In addition to this there is the horrible – the really disquieting – prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist and feminist in England. One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth [a new model town favoured by progressive intellectuals] when the bus stopped and two dreadful-looking old men got onto it. They were both about sixty, both very short, pink and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was obscenely bald, the other had long gray hair bobbed in the Lloyd George style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every dimple. Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus. The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at them, and back again at me, and murmured, ‘Socialists’, as who should say, ‘Red Indians’. He was probably right – the ILP were holding their summer school at Letchworth. But the point is that to him, as an ordinary man, a crank meant a Socialist and a Socialist meant a crank.”

    Very dangerously for the future of Music and Art, the Art World tends to be full of people who share the same sort of cultural identification with the post 68 tendencies. Art and Music are increasingly politicized, as we head into an Orwellian nightmare scenario that threatens us, it is these foolish people who will collaborate with urges towards the destruction of the heritage of civilization.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  211. Sparkon says:
    @Priss Factor

    One can appreciate something but still not care for it.

    One can do that only by engaging in some fanciful semantical gymnastics, if not downright self-deception.

    Words do have meaning. Of course, you’re free to make it up as you go along, but according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary,

    Some common synonyms of appreciate are cherish, prize, treasure, and value. While all these words mean “to hold in high estimation,” appreciate often connotes sufficient understanding to enjoy or admire a thing’s excellence.

    Just to set the record straight on the meaning of appreciate….

    Speaking of records, I think it’s high time to spin another one from 1961. I had played this for Sailer once before more than two years ago while lamenting the poor quality of the video, so I’m happy to find this better version, and get more complete information about the video and the dancers.

    Del Shannon “Runaway”
    Billboard #1 April 1961

    Episode #36 telecast Aug. 28, 1965
    “The Golden Age of Rock and Roll” Hollywood A Go-Go (1964-66)
    KHJ, Los Angeles with host Sam Riddle
    Gazzarri Dancers

    http://www.gazzarridancers.com/episode3039capsules.html

    One of the tall blondes dancing around Del Shannon is Deanna De De Mollner (1944 – 2021)

    RIP

    • Thanks: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  212. sulu says:

    I had to stop reading when you said that Dylan was the greatest artist of Rock. You must have the ear of Helen Keller. Dylan had the worst voice I think I have ever heard. I can’t imagine how he ever made it in the record industry. You’re trolling, right? If you want to try and describe Dylan’s voice just imagine a house cat that has been forcibly restrained and is then being anally assaulted by a rhinoceros. Simply record that sound and then replay it at about one third speed. That approximates Dylan. Horrible in the extreme! At least Frank could sing. And he could act, for that matter.

    Sulu

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  213. @Sparkon

    One can do that only by engaging in some fanciful semantical gymnastics, if not downright self-deception.
    Words do have meaning. Of course, you’re free to make it up as you go along, but according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary,
    Some common synonyms of appreciate are cherish, prize, treasure, and value. While all these words mean “to hold in high estimation,” appreciate often connotes sufficient understanding to enjoy or admire a thing’s excellence.

    Words have multiple meaning. ‘Great’ can mean something super-good, highly noble, or awesome(even if not good).

    So, there is no single definition of appreciate. For example, after every game in school, there’s a chant that goes like, “…who do we appreciate?” and you name the opposing team. In other words, even as you played to beat them, you appreciate them as rivals deserving of respect. It doesn’t mean you have to like the other team.

    According to the Merrian-Webster dictionary meaning, ‘appreciate’ can mean various things. It’s relate to terms such as cherish, prize, treasure, or value. When it comes to Beethoven, I prize, treasure, and value. I want his music to live forever. But I don’t cherish.
    The dictionary also says ‘sufficient understanding to enjoy OR admire a thing’s excellence.’
    I can admire Beethoven’s excellence and partly understand why(partly cuz I’m not schooled in music theory), but I don’t particularly enjoy it.

    Take one of the most elitist critics of arts and culture in the 20th century. John Simon. He readily admitted there are lots of things he appreciates and values but doesn’t really care for. That’s just human. It’s like there are plenty of dishes that I can appreciate but don’t particularly care to eat. All said and done, my favorite food is New York style pizza.

    And sure, the works of Mozart and Beethoven rise high above the rest, but I prefer Vangelis when it comes to sheer enjoyment. And even though I admire Pink Floyd as being #2 as Rockers-as-artists, my favorite song ever is probably the intro to the Mary Tyler Moore show. It’s a matter of taste.

    And even though I’d put films like SEVEN SAMURAI, ANDREI RUBLEV, 2001, and CITIZEN KANE at the top in cinematic art, my favorite film is maybe MYSTIC PIZZA.
    That’s just honesty, which I prefer.

    I’d hate for people to say their favorite book is WAR AND PEACE or HEART OF DARKNESS simply to come across as a seeeeeeeeeeerious person.

    As many people as possible should be educated and cultured to appreciate the higher and deeper achievements of culture. Still, their personal favorites could be something other.

    Swing Out Sister’s SHAPES AND PATTERNS isn’t one of the ‘all-time’ great albums but is maybe my favorite.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  214. @sulu

    Isn’t Sulu the character in that terrible TV show STAR TREK who travels through space to get homo-buggered by space aliens?

    • Replies: @Sulu
  215. Sulu says:
    @Priss Factor

    Piss Fucker,

    It’s also the name of the Sulu Sea, a place where I have done extensive scuba diving. But your insolence and homosexual projection is noted.

    Sulu

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  216. @GazaPlanet

    All good music is “elitist” in that it requires artistic talent to produce. That is the point and that is the problem.

    If all good music is ‘elitist’, then good pop music is also ‘elitist’ in that it takes rare talent to create.
    Witty sitcoms are ‘elitist’ in that most people cannot write funny lines for shows like FRASIER.

    There are two meanings to ‘elitist’.

    All rare talent is ‘elitist’ regardless of its expression or format because few have such talents. However, I prefer the term ‘brilliant’ or ‘exceptional’ than ‘elitist’ for superior talent used for mass entertainment. So, Spielberg has a rare gift — he’s truly one in a million or ten million talent — , but his talent crafts popular entertainment that washes over the masses who generally don’t think about the skill or creativity involved but just wanna be wowed.

    Then, there is another kind of elite culture, one invested in serious-mindedness. It is about high culture, serious themes, intellectual complexity, prestige of tradition, or academic concern. Sublime expressions of beauty(as opposed to the postcard kind). Modernism and its avant-garde theories of artistic experimentation. Preservation of tradition, whether in high art or folk art(forgotten by the hoi polloi). Or academic approach to culture. For example, ancient Greek pottery was made for common use and wasn’t regarded highly by the Greeks, but it has gained historical value and now sit in museums and have been the object of serious study.

    This kind of elite culture could be the product of elite/rare talent. I never read James Joyce’s ULYSSES but literary scholars seem to believe it is serious in intent, revolutionary in expression, and genius in realization.

    However, not everything in elite culture is the product of rare talent. Even great artists have low points in their career. Even serious authors write bad books. Even genius film-makers make poor films(despite the seriousness of intention, like Fellini’s works after 8 1/2). And some who work in elite culture owe more to connections or specious theorizing. Many highly esteemed artists of the 18th and 19th centuries have been forgotten. Highly prized in their day, time hasn’t been kind to them. Though Milos Forman’s AMADEUS is a gaudy vulgar work, it does convey that time(or ‘God’) is the final arbiter of greatness. Salieri is the court favorite while Mozart dies young, impoverished, and half-mad, but it’s the latter who enters the pantheon of music. Perhaps the most famous example of such an artist in Van Gogh. Surely, everyone’s heard of the story that he sold only one painting in his life. But he looms as the giant of 19th century painting, and only a fool today would deny his genius. (Again, I can appreciate Van Gogh but don’t really care for the style. Botticelli is my guy.) So, elite culture/community in the past often failed to appreciate genius in front of their eyes because it was fixated too much on tradition, respectability, and consensus. In contrast, the 20th century committed the opposite sin by saying something new has value far greater than the current opinion because it’s just another case of genius being ignored or unappreciated in its time. So, every kind of third-rate or half-crazy trash has been justified as the ‘new art of the future’. How else did the worst excesses of modernist music receive so much attention in music academies?

    Ideally, elite culture should be serious(high in aspiration and/or deep in truth) and the product of rare artistic gifts. It is TIME that is usually(but not always) the best judge of such works. But much of elite culture(in the moment) is determined by connections, favoritism, and fashions. How did the likes of Jasper Johns and Andy Warhol become big names in art? But even they are geniuses compared to Jeff Koons and such junk.
    We should also beware of elite culture that is sincere in its seriousness and high-mindedness but still mediocre due to lack of talent. While classical music in high culture, much of it’s mediocre. Sibelius was a genius with symphonies, but his minor works don’t amount to much. Just like not every Shakespeare is a work of genius, there’s a lot that Beethoven composed that doesn’t rise much above what others were doing at the time.

    The flourishing of art requires people who AREN’T left cold by Beethoven.

    Maybe IDEALLY, such should be the case but hardly is. Most great artists have serious blind spots. Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest film-makers, saw NOTHING GOOD in Orson Welles, who was, in turn, blind to Antonioni’s artistry. Many great authors have low regard for other great writers and even hate their works. Artists bashing other artists has been a running theme throughout history. Faulkner didn’t care for Hemingway, and vice versa. Some artists turned against their own works. The great Leo Tolstoy later disavowed his works and said UNCLE TOM’S CABIN is the greatest work of literature. Even serious critics are blind to the virtues of certain artists. Stanley Kauffmann was one of the best critics of film but he could nothing good about Robert Altman(apart from MASH). So, the idea that one HAS to be moved by the BEST to create worthy culture has no standing in the facts of cultural history.

    Fortunately or not that leftist Francis Ford Coppola had a musician for a father or you probably wouldn’t obsess over The Godfather.

    I don’t even know what his means. Besides, THE GODFATHER score was done by Nino Rota.

    Suffice it to say, anyone who can only relate to Woodstock and later era music does not judge music by what they are hearing, it is part of their cultural identification.

    I said I don’t care much for popular American music of the first half of the 20th century. I much prefer 19th century American music and various folk traditions, especially Slavic. I’d rather listen to ‘Shenandoah’ or some Civil War song than anything by Cole Porter even though Porter was superb at what he did. One of the reasons I love the album THE BAND so much it drew inspiration from early sources of American music.

    At any rate, I stand by the claim that the Rock Era is the absolute golden age of the Song as art form, and there are various reasons, too many to get into now. Rock wasn’t just about hard rock or hippie-ism but an expansive big tent that was open and appreciative of everything under the sun. It didn’t last long, and the Industry won out, but what a treasure trove of music from the 60s to mid 80s(though highlights continued into 90s and 2000s’. Cranberries’ “Linger” is a thing of beauty.)

    60s Youth culture was not rebellion. It was the mainstreaming of this cultural identity.

    But this can be said of ANY rebellion. Early Christians were rebels, but their way was later mainstreamed and dogmatized. Communists were rebels but pushed their own dogma upon gaining power. Muslim Clerics were rebels in Iran but then established the Islamic state. Jews were rebels against Wasp order but they created a Jewish-supremacist American Order. Mao went from rebel to tyrant. Indeed, the biggest rebels make the biggest tyrants because to rebel means to have the defiant spirit to challenge the existing system. But such spirit is rarely content to be given its own space. It must take over and set its own standards over the rest. It’s just the way of human nature.

    These people’s children now fill out the ranks of groups like BLM.

    BLM is essentially Jewish Power Move. Jews need white obeisance to maintain Jewish Supremacism, and Jews figured blacks are most useful because whites are in awe of black domination in sports, sex, and music. People feel most guilt for wrongs they did to whom are deemed superior. Whites don’t care about American Indians cuz the latter are seen as losers. Whites don’t care about ‘loser’ Palestinians. Whites admire and feel most guilt about blacks and Jews cuz they’re deemed superior in brawn or brains.

    BLM wouldn’t have gone crazy in 2020 if not for Jewish control of deep state and media. They needed something to bash Trump with. Jews can turn on or turn off BLM. Indeed, what followed the 60s was the Me-decade of the 70s that wasn’t political. And 80s were yuppies. The 90s were about Clinton locking up tons of blacks and gentrification). It set the grounds for the rebirth of cities like NY and Chicago and San Fran and etc.

    In 2020, Jews turned on BLM at full force to keep blacks in the Democratic ranks. It had little to do with the Sixties. As for MLK cult, it began in the 50s with the help of the Greatest Generation.

    In addition to this there is the horrible – the really disquieting – prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist and feminist in England.

    Try saying ‘libertarian’ and you get another assortments of nutters, idiots, and crazies.

    Try saying ‘conservative’ and you get a bunch of lamos, dorks, cucks, and the likes of Charlie Kirk. Just look at the state of ‘conservatism’.

    Any label will attract its kind of lunatics and clowns. Alt Right ended up attracting people like Chris Cantwell and fat boy Matt Heimbach(infamous for Night of the Wrong Wives).

    Very dangerously for the future of Music and Art, the Art World tends to be full of people who share the same sort of cultural identification with the post 68 tendencies.

    I agree May 68 in France was really bad shit, but things were considerably different in the US.
    One big reason was BLACKS. France in 1968 was mostly white, and so, white radicals could run riots with dumb ideas for quite a spell.
    But in the US, radicalism meant blacks ruining entire cities, and this led the nation to the right, with Nixon winning in 68 and even bigger in 72. Also, the race riots turned many Democrats to the right. By today’s standards, Mayor Daley in 68 was like Bull Connors.

    If there was some logical progress due to what the 60s unleashed, then the 80s and 90s and 2000s should have all turned more radical. But they didn’t. 80s was about Reaganesque yuppieism and MTV consumerism. 90s was about New Democrats under Clinton going with Wall Street(and dumping on labor unions) and bring back law and order against ‘superpredators’. 2000s began as George W. Bush era. Obama turned out to be tool of Wall Street, CIA, and Zionists.

    2020 happened because Jewish Power needed SOMETHING to trash Trump.

  217. @Sulu

    It’s also the name of the Sulu Sea, a place where I have done extensive scuba diving.

    Scuba diving, eh? For oysters or snails?

    • Replies: @Sulu
    , @Presocratic
  218. Sulu says:
    @Priss Factor

    I don’t have any Italian ancestry. You do have a preoccupation with homosexuality don’t you? Is there a reason? Other than the obvious one, I mean.

    Sulu

  219. @Priss Factor

    Some very persuasive rejoinders here that reveal on your part a great deal of knowledge, even erudition, on these subjects.

    I never read James Joyce’s ULYSSES but literary scholars seem to believe it is serious in intent, revolutionary in expression, and genius in realization.

    Joyce once wrote that he “put in so many enigmas and puzzles [in Ulysses] that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant.” If he was serious about this being one of his intentions in writing Ulysses, it would seem to compromise the integrity of his art.

  220. Sparkon says:
    @Priss Factor

    my favorite song ever is probably the intro to the Mary Tyler Moore show. It’s a matter of taste.

    Now, that is funny. Your kind of taste is what used to be called “out there,” but at least it’s somewhere, and you’re free to do your own thing, after all, no matter how far out or silly it seems to me.

    Now, sticking with the funny, least to begin with, and turning from taste to the Twist, check your appreciation for a dance that became a world-wide sensation in the early ’60s, a craze ignited by Chubby Checker’s #1 hit from the summer of 1960, “The Twist,” which returned for another two-week run at #1 early in 1962, the year of the Twist.

    Between 1960 and 1964, there were at least ten Twist songs in Billboard’s Top 10, including seven in 1962 when everybody was twisting, with the last being “Twist and Shout” by the Beatles in 1964.

    In between, even ol’ blue eyes was trying to get in on the action, so let’s work our way up from the bottom…

    Frank Sinatra – “Everybody’s Twistin’” – 1962

    Gary U.S. Bonds – “Dear Lady Twist” – Billboard #9 – Feb. 1962

    Sam Cooke – “Twisting the Night Away” – Billboard #9 – Mar. 1962

    The Traveling Wilburys – “Wilbury Twist” – 1991

    Chubby Checker – “Let’s Twist Again” – Billboard #8 – Aug. 1961

  221. @Priss Factor

    H.L. Mencken’s published Joyce’s work for the first time in America in the May 1915 issue of Smart Set. He ran two short stories from The Dubliners, “The Boarding House” and “A Little Cloud.” While Mencken had a high regard for Joyce’s early work, he thought Ulysses had little literary merit. In his memoir, My Life as Author and Editor, Mencken had this to say about it:

    “When Ulysses was nearing completion, in 1920 or thereabout, [Ezra] Pound sent several chapters from it to the Little Review in New York, of which he was the London correspondent, and they were printed therein. It is unlikely that I’d have printed them if he had sent them to me, for Ulysses seemed to me to be deliberately mystifying and mainly puerile, and I have never been able to get over a suspicion that Joyce concocted it as a kind of vengeful hoax. Writing excellent stuff in conventional patterns, he had got very little attention and was so hard up that he had to go on teaching languages to keep alive, but from the moment he took to the literary bizarreries of Greenwich Village and began to push them further than Greenwich Village (or even the Left Bank) had ever dared, he was a made man. All the addicts to Schwarmerie began whooping him up as the St. John of a new and revolutionary gospel, and a rich woman in Paris staked him to \$3,000 a year. The rest of his life, though it was badgered by frequent ill health and increasing blindness, was comfortable and even luxurious compared to the days of Dubliners and A Portrait of the Artist. His later work was hollow stuff, as was that of his imitators.”

  222. @Priss Factor

    In contrast, the 20th century committed the opposite sin by saying something new has value far greater than the current opinion because it’s just another case of genius being ignored or unappreciated in its time. So, every kind of third-rate or half-crazy trash has been justified as the ‘new art of the future’. How else did the worst excesses of modernist music receive so much attention in music academies?

    I’m reminded here of Solzhenitsyn’s assertion that the “relentless cult of novelty” in the 20th Century destroyed Western art. He goes too far, I think, but his commentary is provocative and conveys some important truths about the creative process:
    https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/the-relentless-cult-of-novelty.html

  223. @Priss Factor

    Allow me to deflect attention from this rather unseemly squabble by linking to this interesting account of how this scene from Spartacus was originally cut from the movie and then restored to it decades later: https://culturall.io/oysters-or-snails-hiding-homosexuality-in-spartacus/

  224. I want to ask JUNG-FREUD a question. But first, thanks for a great read. I found it to be wonderfully insightful. And I’ll have to watch those two suggested movies DINER and BABY ITS YOU for the first time (how did I miss them the first time?).

    My question is this. How much, and to what effect if any, did the public school system’s “music education requirement to graduate high school” 1922-1974 effect the Boomer generations?

    If you recall, nationwide public education had a near universal requirement that you had to be able to not only did you have to be able to sing & read music, but also be “2 years musically proficient on an instrument”. And as you probably also know, once that music requirement ended, only high school “band” became the last refuge of any “music education”.

    I vividly recall many of us closed our clarinet cases and dropped music like a hot potato in ’74. Then five long years later, when we graduated in 1979, we were dancing to meaningless machine produced disco and listening to rapp blare out its hate in boomboxes. Bands such as Chicago and Earth Wind & Fire were suddenly out. Computers and MTV brought in a new wave of 1980s music.

    Rapp, the creative art of “just scratchin, spittin & talkin” over old albums by “black kids in the hood” who unlike their black fathers and mothers, were musically untrained. The difference in musical talent between the old albums and the new rapp records, could not have been more stark.

    Thanks again Jung-Freud for such a great read.

  225. @Emerging Majority

    Ah, so you have to get with Dylan on an INTELLECTUAL level, or you’re an idiot. That’s what Chris Rock says about rap. Dylan and his music is shit, and people that get into the pseudo intellectual rationale for shitty music are acid heads. That’s you, EM. You were. obviously tripping for 5 paragraphs and 500 words explaining your brilliance at finding genius in shitty music.

    Dylan’s awards? Jews suckling the tits of Jews, nothing more.

  226. Bob Dylan was horrible & didn’t care for Elvis either. I’m a fan of The Way u look tonight, Something Stupid & Summer Wind when I’m feeling ol school crooner. Which brings me to Dino if I’m feeling my guido roots I might play Ain’t that a kick in the head or Mambo Italiano It was a Very Good Year is a tune to listen too when you’re smashed & reminiscing. On that note I’ll take Reminiscing over all of em

  227. If the Sistine ceiling could sing, it would sound like Sinatra.

    I have no connection to the 1930s when most of the songs and styles on which Sinatra built his magnificent career were given life. Yet he gets much play by me, along with Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Jobim, Franz Liszt, Mulgrew Miller, Dave Samuels and many others whose only explicit prerequisite is greatness and only implicit one is death.

    I say this not to establish my bona fides as a music snob but to point out that these are who have caught my ear, not Elvis, the Beatles nor whatever other philistine footnote the article names. 400 years from now, I can all but promise the judgements of those who might claim any authority to adjudicate such things will differ little from my own.

    It may well be that Sinatra’s stentorian renderings, like Renaissance Venice or the rule of Julius Caesar, are among the only things future generations know not just of our music but of us.

    So take “A Blue Christmas”, and, in the spirit of the season, shove it up the chimney.

  228. BuelahMan says:
    @Priss Factor

    the greatest artist of rock music.

    You must be jewish. Or an idiot.

  229. ivan says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Wow! You’ve jumped the shark. Elton John was something up until 1973/4, then he became the mainstream with that those saccharine songs culminating in the Dianification of Rock . He was the original Princess Di. Maybe that is why he is so popular; vapid, pretentious and a minister in the Church of Hypocrisy.

  230. @Curle

    Gravel voice over three chords just doesn’t do it for me. Given that Elvis and the Beatles (who I have little regard for) thought Dylan was wonderful confirms my opinion.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  231. Che Guava says:
    @Franz

    I agree and disagree on much. For example, I thought the original Manchurian Candidate film was good in a way (unlike the putrid novel), Sinatra played his part well.

    The thing that is really stunning to me is that this ‘Jung-Freud’ is clearly the Priss Factor or Factory, and whatever other u-names he or she was using when the mods told him or her to stop that.

    Have been on the site long enough for it to be obvious pour moi.

    Not that I am complaining, long enjoyed parts of the rants of Priss, but this seems to be a first, in that a very frequent commenter is posting articles under a different u-name.

    U-name should be the same, for articles and comments.

    • Replies: @Franz
  232. Che Guava says:
    @Jim Christian

    Dylan (Zimmerman ) was a dreadful plagiarist, with a horrid voice.

    As for use of Sinatra songs in movie soundtracks, I saw an indy-style action movie at the end of this summer. Title is Nobody. A Sinatra song I did not know of before (I Gotta be Me)was used to great effect in a key scene. Nobody, as a whole, despite cliched villains, is a budget masterpiece for anyone who likes a good action movie. Almost no or no CG.

    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @anarchyst
  233. Franz says:
    @Che Guava

    I agree and disagree on much. For example, I thought the original Manchurian Candidate film was good in a way (unlike the putrid novel), Sinatra played his part well.

    The curious part of Frank is after he got his Oscar his movies got terrible, mostly. But his records got better.

    He hinted at retirement in 1965 with his album, September of My Years. One song on it, “It was a Very Good Year” was played constantly in autumn of ’65 through springtime of 1966. That’s why some of us mistakenly thought he retired right after that.

    Sinatra shares some of the blame for the “lifestyle liberalism” that followed the war. His short, “The House I Live In” (1951) started the icky brotherhood sermons Hollywood has been cramming down our throats ever since.

    Lesser known was his thumbs up on gays. Otto Preminger’s movie “Advise and Consent” had the first depiction of a gay bar in a major film and Sinatra “improvised” the music for that sequence. Conservatives who like Frank S tend to ignore how far left he was in the crucial years after WWII.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  234. Che Guava says:
    @Franz

    Thank you Franz. I may have seen The House … many years ago, at a film study group, with subtitles.

    I didn’t understand what the bullied boy was supposed to represent at the time. I watched it just now, and really understood.

    I guess it helps to understand that the people of the bullied boy already had control of music in terms of publishing, rights, use in cinema, and writing mainly bad songs by then.

    The Preminger one, I will wait until I have a free wi-fi link to download it.

    As for commenter Priss Factor being the same person as writer Jung-Freud, it is glaringly obvious from many points of style and consistent errors. I am surprised that no-one else has noticed, or tried to refute me. Also surprised that no mod has noticed.

    Going from warned against multiple account commenter to sock-puppeting as an article writer is srsly impressive!

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  235. Sparkon says:
    @Che Guava

    As for commenter Priss Factor being the same person as writer Jung-Freud, it is glaringly obvious from many points of style and consistent errors. I am surprised that no-one else has noticed, or tried to refute me. Also surprised that no mod has noticed.

    Actually, several of us have noticed. See for example Zumbuddi’s comment under Priss-Freud’s first article at UR:

    Jung-Freud = Yiddish for Priss Factor

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/a-kind-of-introduction-the-ok-boomer-moment-in-rock-history/#comment-5014857

    Gay Troll:

    LOL, what is this shit? “Jung-Freud”? Is this ghost written by Priss Factor? Or is it another Ron Unz joint? Raches no longer supplying the dopamine?

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/a-kind-of-introduction-the-ok-boomer-moment-in-rock-history/#comment-5017335

    Yours truly, upstream here, comment #118:

    Sure, that’s a fair observation, but Priss-Freud’s article is about 20th century popular music, pre-Rock ‘n’ Roll, and how he/she was having “a hard time tuning into their sensibility.”

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/frank-sinatra-vs-the-boomers/#comment-5045514

    Well, it’s nice to be first, and I’m not trying to steal your thunder, but sore ga jinsei da – それが人生だ – and so finally it’s time to play what is probably my favorite Sinatra song “That’s Life,” first heard on FEN (Far East Network) while I was a young airman in Japan.

    Frank Sinatra “That’s Life” Billboard #4 1966
    Dean Kay and Kelly Gordon
    Hammond organ solo: Mike Melvoin

    • Thanks: Che Guava
    • Replies: @Che Guava
  236. Che Guava says:
    @Sparkon

    人生は辛いよ。

    Happy to see that others noticed, in a way it would be disappointing if I had been the first, since I am not a regular enough reader to have even seen a Jung-Freud-Priss piece before last night.

    Speaking of That’s Life, like it, couldn’t resist listening again from the link, you must also remember when Sony was using it in adverts.

    As I keep saying, watch Nobody, ミスタノボディ here, it has a great use of I’ve Got to be Me.

  237. JoeyI says:
    @Anonymous

    Dillon’s artistic well ran dry when he couldn’t find anyone else to plagiarize.

    • LOL: Che Guava
  238. anarchyst says:
    @Che Guava

    I realize that I am going against the grain, but I never considered Sinatra more than an average singer that was “pumped up” by signal processing–reverb, compression and expansion, equalization, etc.
    I still regard Sinatra as a passable, OK singer with the “help” of signal processing…
    On the other hand, Robert Zimmerman, aka Bob Dylan’s voice is impossible to “clean up” using any sound processing equipment. I don’t consider him to be a singer of any renown, unlike many others who others who do.
    Just my opinion as a sound engineer…

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  239. Che Guava says:
    @anarchyst

    I am only an amateur sound engineer, and only replying because I generally like your comments.

    Listening to That’s Life, posted by OP Sparkon in this thread, not for the first time, but first time for years, I can hear the big effects on backing, esp. backing vox, but can’t hear much but a little reverb and gating on Sinatra’s vox.

    I can hear that he is really belting it out.

    Of course, opera singers do that better, but not always to better effect.

    So, seriously, do you hear more effects than those I name in That’s Life?

  240. anarchyst says:
    @Alden

    Motown might have been the least corrupt, but it paid its studio musicians a pittance, although it was the studio musicians who made the “Motown Sound”…
    A good example of an undying riff is the sequence in “My Girl”. No matter where you go, almost everyone recognizes that riff…

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