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Above, modern China, and a homeless camp in San Francisco

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2020s China Equals 1950s America?

I spent most of September in China, so last month’s diary was all China, China, China. This month’s won’t be; but I do have a few afterthoughts to record.

A few days after I returned, just when I thought I’d gotten China out of my system and was ready to concentrate on America and her manifold problems, I read a very striking essay at the poli-sci website Palladium.

The essay is longish—nearly four thousand words—but with an exceptionally high ratio of insights to text. The author is Jean Fan, a young American psychologist of Chinese ancestry. She can be seen giving a TEDx talk (not about China) here.

I came at the essay loaded with skepticism, mainly on account of its title: The American Dream is Alive in China. Yeah, yeah, I thought: another puff piece from the ChiCom propaganda office. The internet’s full of those. The genre is pinned at its most risible end by the contributions of “Godfree Roberts” at Unz Review.

Titles are thought up by editors, though. An author, unless he swings a lot of weight, should not be blamed for the titles stuck on his journalism. As I read on into Ms Fan’s piece I found myself more and more nodding along in agreement with her observations.

“I grew up in America, but I go to China every year for a few weeks to visit family,” she tells us. Her essay is formed from reflections on her last visit, in March 2018.

China has, Ms Fan tells us, turned some kind of a corner.

Ten years ago, it was obvious that if you could immigrate to the U.S., you should. That mentality has shifted. One of my cousins characterized the new status quo. When I asked her whether she would consider moving to the U.S., she responded: “Why would I? Life is great here.” She’s not the only one; 20 years ago, almost all Chinese students studying at American universities would stay in the U.S. Now, they almost all go home.

I caught the same vibe, visiting China last month. There’s a widespread cheerful optimism, an élan, a general satisfaction with things as they are, along with a belief that they’ll keep getting better. National-morale-wise, it’s like 1950s America over there.

Growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I had always imagined myself living and working here …

But for the first time last March, I found myself thinking: “I might not mind living in China.” After all, Chinese cities continue to become cleaner and nicer, people’s lives become easier and more convenient, and the government competently handles more and more pressing problems.

Meanwhile, San Francisco’s government continues to struggle with worsening homelessness and public disorder. In addition, as I write this piece, millions of people in the Bay are experiencing a multi-day planned blackout. As you might expect, no one is happy about this. My current expectation is that as time goes on, this contrast between the U.S. and China will become more stark. I’ve since reflected on the idea of living in China. I think that these days, if you’re a normal person living a normal life, or even an ambitious entrepreneur, China is a good place to be. Cities are clean and convenient. Life is exciting and fast-paced. Opportunities are plentiful.

Ms Fan is not a shill or a fool. She is clear-headed about the negatives.

I do feel more comfortable navigating the relative disorder and freedom of the U.S. than being in a context where I might quickly need to come to the government-mandated answer.

She has, though, noticed something important about China that has been too little remarked on. I got an inkling of it myself last month. That’s why I responded so strongly to this essay. I had been out of China for eighteen years, though. Ms Fan, with her annual visits, has a much better feel for continuities and corners.

The common perceptions of other countries that we carry around in our heads are generally out of date. With today’s ease of travel and communication they are no longer decades out of date, as they used to be, but we are still slow to catch on when a nation turns a sharp corner, as China has recently done.

Many of the assumptions Americans make about China are pre-corner, drawn from things as they were five or ten years ago. Many of the things we think we know have ceased to be, or are rapidly ceasing to be, true.

Chinese students in our colleges desperate to get a green card so they can settle here post-graduation? No: As Ms Fan points out, more and more prefer to go home. Wealthy Chinese buying property in the West for security in case China collapses? Not really a thing any more. People still buy for investment, but they’re not thinking of bolt-holes. Horrible urban air pollution? I visited five major cities and three small towns last month—north, south, east, and west: the air was fine.

(That last observation needs some discounting for the fact that I was there in September, when the heating of homes and offices is not an issue. A relative from Zhengzhou told me air pollution is bad there, and really bad in winter.)

The last word, from Jean Fan:

In the U.S., we face an ongoing crisis of governance. We need to understand our own failures, and we need to grapple with unexpected demonstrations of success—even if they come from non-liberal societies.

China’s success challenges our implicit ideology and deep-seated assumptions about governance. It needs to be studied—not just to bring about better coordination, but because in its accomplishments, we may find important truths needed to bring about American revitalization.

No bottom, no facts

The negatives, yes. Jasper Becker, in his book about the great Mao famine of 1959-61, tells us of a reporter in China in the 1920s responding to a request from his editor for “the bottom facts.” Replied that reporter: “There is no bottom in China, and no facts.”

That caution is always worth bearing in mind. China’s a very big, very old country, with a colossal population. The edges are, as an Old China Hand of my acquaintance used to say, a long way from the middle.

My time in China last month was spent in cities or substantial towns, among middle-class professional types. These are China’s current winners. They are upbeat and doing well. I’m guessing the same applies to Jean Fan’s contacts.

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What about China’s losers? The country’s wealth is distributed very unequally. There are a great many poor people living hard lives. I sometimes glimpsed them from the window of a train, but I don’t know any of them personally. The ChiComs have had an official War on Poverty for some years, but it seems to be ill-managed, under-funded, and ineffectual.

I’m skeptical about direly negative predictions for China’s economy, having reviewed Gordon Chang’s book The Coming Collapse of China … eighteen years ago. Professional economists are likewise wary of talking about collapse, but they are none the less bearish: Christopher Balding, for example, quote:

There are very large systemic problems with the Chinese economy, and they’re just not dealing with them.

Balding thinks the ChiComs will avoid collapse and preserve their own power by closing China off from the world, becoming “North Korea with a higher level of income.”

And then there are the things unseen and unknown. Behind all those staged presentations of unanimity at the top, Chinese politics is probably just as it always has been: a cauldron of intrigue, ambitious factions stalking each other through the corridors of power with daggers drawn.

Not totally unseen but seriously under-reported in the West are China’s networks of organized crime. The 39 Vietnamese who perished in a refrigerated truck while being smuggled into Britain last week seem to have travelled via China, where “snakehead” criminal gangs provided them with false Chinese passports.

The crime gangs are everywhere. Entrepreneurs are plagued by them. A Hong Kong acquaintance of mine owned a small business with a workshop in mainland China. He lost his business to the crime gangs, and fears for his life. The law-enforcement and judicial authorities are all bought and paid for by the gangs, he claims.

Other small capitalists are more proactive.

Businessman Tan Youhui hired a hitman to “take out” his competitor for $282,000 … a court heard.

But the hitman hired another man to do the job, offering $141,000. That man hired another hitman, who hired another hitman, who hired another hitman.

The plan crumbled when the final hitman met the man, named only as Wei, in a cafe and proposed faking his death.

All six men—the five hitmen and Tan—were convicted of attempted murder by the court in Nanning, Guangxi, following a trial that lasted three years. [Hesitant hitmen jailed over botched assassination in China; BBC News, October 22nd 2019.]

China footnotes

Just a couple of footnotes to round out the China coverage.

First, some vlogs. Up above there somewhere I had a link to Chris Chappell’s China Uncensored, which has been airing on YouTube since 2016. Chris is smart, funny, and unsparing in exposing ChiCom lies and follies. There’s some heavyweight political and economic analysis in there, too.

Of more lightweight vloggers who have, at least some of the time (the quality is very variable), interesting things to say about China at the everyday level, the longest-established seems to be Winston Sterzel, a South African fellow who’s been vlogging as Serpentza since 2007. Close behind him, and a bit lighter in tone, is Matthew Tye, an American vlogging as laowhy86 since about 2012 (these start dates can be hard to pin down).

Second, perhaps supporting Christopher Balding’s speculation about China becoming just a more prosperous copy of North Korea, dubious arrests of foreigners over there seem to be happening more frequently.

In January, the State Department issued a travel advisory for China, warning Americans, particularly those with dual Chinese-American citizenship, that they may be prevented from leaving China if they go there.

The large network of English teachers in China, long a mainstay of the expatriate scene, appears to have come under particular scrutiny. [China Detains 2 Americans Amid Growing Scrutiny of Foreigners, by Amy Qin; New York Times, October 17th 2019.]

Perhaps I was lucky to have done my own teaching gig back in the early 1980s when things were looser.

Third and finally, a sarcastic email from a reader of my September Diary asking me where Peking is. “I can’t find it in my atlas …”

Glad to help out, Sir. Peking is in north-central China; 400 miles southwest of Mukden, 280 miles west of Port Arthur, 1,200 miles north of Amoy. You’re welcome!

Nonlinear change

If China’s turned a corner in the past not-very-many years, so has America, at least politically.

Razib Khan notes that the 2012 political candidates, Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, look kind of quaint and old-fashioned. Neither of them would stand a chance of nomination by their parties today.

As Razib says:

Cultural change is often nonlinear. Shocks can change the equilibrium.

Decline of Christianity

As foretold in my 2009 mega-bestseller We Are Doomed, America is following western Europe into irreligion. If anything I underestimated the speed with which traditional religious belief is declining.

A Pew Research Center report dated October 17th has precise numbers:

The religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26 percent, up from 17 percent in 2009.

Twenty-six divided by seventeen is 1.5294 and change, so we are 53 percent more irreligious today than we were when We Are Doomed emerged from the presses to stun and dismay the world.

I took care to qualify my 2009 prediction with:

Note please that what is weakening here is not the human instinct to spirituality. That is … a core feature of human nature, and not likely to go away, however much the celebrity atheists wish it to.

Supposing that’s right, where does that “human instinct to spirituality” turn when traditional religion no longer nourishes it?

For those people whose neurology inclines them to the left (low scores on ingroup loyalty, respect for authority, and disgust) the commonest opinion, which I share, is that “woke” ideology, especially anti-racism, is what gets the spiritual juices flowing.

Supposing that’s true on the left, what’s the right equivalent? “Since 1992 the share of Americans with no religion has … trebled even among conservatives,” says Ed West mulling over the numbers. (He doesn’t give his source and I can’t find it, but it doesn’t seem improbable.) What hook are we irreligious conservatives going to hang our spiritual hats on?

Ed suggests a slide into intolerant ethnocentrism and demagogue-worship and writes, echoing theocon Ross Douthat: “If you don’t like the Religious Right, you’re really not going to like the Irreligious Right.”

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That’s all a bit odd coming from Ed West, Brexiteer (although of the “soft” school) and author of The Diversity Illusion. Are irreligious conservatives really gap-toothed Yahoos yearning to prostrate themselves before some guy on a white horse? Or has the Progressive Hitlery-Hitlery-Hitler fixation infected part of Ed’s brain?

As an irreligious conservative myself, I resist the thought. I don’t know precisely how irreligious my faction, the Dissident Right, is overall, but I do know that I’ll be speaking at the annual conference of the H.L. Mencken club on November 9th. (Irreligious? H.L. Mencken, hel-lo?) Sharing the speaker’s platform with me will be several several other Dissident Right types whose intellectual accomplishments put my own meager academic qualifications to shame and whose teeth have no gaps between them at all.

The Z-man, to whom I look for inspiration on matters like this, hedges his bets:

With the fading of the American empire, new ideas are springing up at home and abroad. At some point, a new moral framework will coalesce to challenge the brittle dying orthodoxy. Alternatively, maybe what comes next is a new dark age. Perhaps this Progressive spasm is the last one before the lights go out.

Misleading advice

Forbes magazine, apparently in earnest, has urged young women to take solo hiking trips around Pakistan.

Pakistan. It’s not exactly on every solo female traveler’s bucket list. But that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be. Especially if you ask vlogger and content creator Eva zu Beck, who thinks Pakistan could be the world’s No. 1 tourism destination. [This Popular Solo Female Travel Vlogger Thinks Pakistan Could Be The World’s No. 1 Tourism Destination by Breanna Wilson; Forbes, October 11th 2019.]

The Twittersphere had considerable fun with that.The British lefty periodical New Statesman used to run a weekly competition wherein for readers to exercise their wit. One popular competition theme was “Misleading Advice for Foreigners.”

  • Try the famous echo in the British Museum Reading Room.
  • London barbers are delighted to shave patrons’ armpits.

And so on. Seems to me this Forbes article belongs exactly in that genre.

[Which is not totally extinct, although the only recent specimens I can find on the internet are (a) lame and (b) incomprehensible to non-Brits.]

Book reports

My reading recently has been a catalog of failure.

Fiction-wise, I bailed out from Ken Follett’s Century Trilogy not far into the third book. That’s out of character for me. I usually enjoy trilogies and tetralogies. I’ve reviewed more than my share—here, here, here, and here—and read many more, starting with Lord of the Rings around 1962. Yes, I was LOTR before LOTR was cool.

Follett’s old-style leftism takes over the narrative in that third book, The Edge of Eternity, though, and he lost me. I don’t mind old-style leftism as much as I mind crazy woke leftism, but it doesn’t make for good fiction, not at this strength. Hey, Ken: You want to send a message, call Western Union.

I did no better with nonfiction. I took Robert Merry’s book about the James K. Polk presidency to China with me, for reading on trains and planes. Merry’s not a gifted writer, though; I’m not as interested in mid-19th-century American history as I thought I was; and the book’s seriously lacking in maps—there is just one. Of the 477 pages of narrative I got to page 269. Then I laid the book aside, and haven’t picked it up since.

Now I’m getting worried that I may be slipping out of the book-reading community. Is this just a thing that happens as we age? Am I headed down the trail mapped by Philip Larkin, towards the same destination he arrived at: “Books are a load of crap”?

Or am I just being dragged along by the zeitgeist? Are books just fading from the smartphone-addicted, Netflix-binge-watching scene? I rarely see people reading a book on trains or planes any more. The last time I sat next to one such was on the Peking subway last month; the guy was reading Foucault’s Words and Things in a Chinese translation (词与物). Good grief!

In hopes of getting back on the rails I’ve bought two novels recommended by friends: Lionel Shriver’s The Mandibles and Jake Arnott’s The Long Firm Trilogy. For nonfiction fiber I’ve also bought Kevin MacDonald’s latest, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition.

On the audiobook front, I’m still listening to Scourby’s reading of the King James Bible when I work out. I’m deep into the Epistles now, and finding Saint Paul a bit of a bore. The Gospels were OK, but I knew them pretty well from my schooldays—no surprises. So far the New Testament isn’t half as entertaining as the Old.

Kipling story

The centenary of Rudyard Kipling’s poem “The Gods of the Copybook Headings,” noted by me in the October 25th Radio Derb, was well received. I got several emails and at least one appreciative tweet.

Here’s a Kipling story, from Andrew Lycett’s fine biography.

In August [of 1921] Rudyard’s listlessness called for another series of major and “very unpleasant” medical examinations. The X-rays, which required a bismuth meal in advance, showed “no sign of the always to be dreaded cancer.” But an old ulcer was found—a large area of inflammation in the colon and lower bowel from which there had been a haemorrhage, which had caused his anaemia. Rudyard was put on a “no solids” diet and for a while lived on milk, enemas, and Epsom Salts. (This may well have been the occasion when Rudyard was examined rectally. He later joked, or so Oliver Baldwin liked to recount, “If this is what Oscar Wilde went to prison for, he ought to have got the Victoria Cross.”)

Math Corner

The October 23rd op-ed in the Los Angeles Times titled Modern high school math should be about data science—not Algebra 2. Steve had some comments here, with Steve’s usual better-than-average comment thread.

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My own position is that, yes, a bit of data science—basic statistics—sure wouldn’t hurt as a standard component of high-school math. Then perhaps I wouldn’t encounter so many people who don’t understand the difference in meaning between the words “some,” “most,” and “all.” I might even—who knows?—occasionally find myself in conversation with a person who knows the meaning of the word “average.”

From that op-ed:

When was the last time you divided a polynomial? If you were asked to do so today, would you remember how? For the most part, students are no longer taught to write cursive, how to use a slide rule, or any number of things that were once useful in everyday life. Let’s put working out polynomial division using pencil and paper on the same ash heap as sock darning and shorthand.

Yeah, I see their point. I have a lingering affection for the old stuff, though. I still have a slide rule here in my desk drawer. Useless, now, of course, and it would be a crime to teach it to ordinary high-schoolers, but …

And some of my old stuff is real old. I am sure I belong to the last generation that was taught in school how to extract a square root by the “long division” method—so called because the computation is laid out like an old-fashioned long division: dividend under a “shed,” divisor to the left, quotient on the shed roof.

Here’s an example from Rose’s New Arithmetic, “An explanatory and practical arithmetic adapted to the business and commerce of the United States” by John Rose. (Philadelphia: Sower & Barnes, 1853). Rose rearranged the “shed” some, but it’s the same idea.

There is a similar style of hand computation for cube roots.

I didn’t learn this one in my 1950s schooling, but I wish I had. It was a common feature of nineteenth-century college algebra textbooks. Here’s the method described in The Scholar’s Arithmetic, or Federal Accountant by Daniel Adams, M.B. (Printed and sold by John Prentiss at the Rensslauer Bookstore; Troy, NY, 1808).

An appalling waste of time and intellection? Eh, maybe. But:

Kummer, like all other great mathematicians, was an avid computer, and he was led to his discoveries not by abstract reflection but by the accumulated experience of dealing with many specific computational examples. The practice of computation is in rather low repute today, and the idea that computation can be fun is rarely spoken aloud. Yet Gauss once said that he thought it was superfluous to publish a complete table of the classification of binary quadratic forms “because (1) anyone, after a little practice, can easily, without much expenditure of time, compute for himself a table of any particular determinant, if he should happen to want it … (2) because the work has a certain charm of its own, so that it is a real pleasure to spend a quarter of an hour in doing it for one’s self, and the more so, because (3) it is very seldom that there is any occasion to do it.” One could also point to instances of Newton and Riemann doing long computations just for the fun of it … [A]nyone who takes the time to do the computations [in this chapter of Professor Edwards’s book] should find that they and the theory which Kummer drew from them are well within his grasp and he may even, though he need not admit it aloud, find the process enjoyable.
—Harold Edwards, Fermat’s Last Theorem, as quoted in Chapter 13 of my book Unknown Quantity.

John Derbyshire [email him] writes an incredible amount on all sorts of subjects for all kinds of outlets. (This no longer includes National Review, whose editors had some kind of tantrum and fired him.) He is the author of We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism and several other books. He has had two books published by VDARE.com com: FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT (also available in Kindle) and FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT II: ESSAYS 2013.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: China, China/America 
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  1. Biff says:

    The top right photo is the homeless camp in Civic Center park – I’ve smelled that place in person – hopefully for the last time.

    • Replies: @Mark Miller
  2. Hey, wasn’t Japan supposed to eat all our lunches 30 years ago? I can’t remember the last time I heard the term “Japan Inc.”

    On another note, Pakistan is blessed with one of the greatest archaeological ruins in the world, along with a lot of other stuff that’s probably very interesting. It could curry that into a profitable tourism industry if its citizens could stop killing each other with bombs.

  3. Anonymous[348] • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve noticed that the media heavily promotes solo travel to women, and that 80-90% of “travel blogs” are run by women. The travel industry in general, but especially the solo/”adventure” travel industry is heavily aimed at women.

    I’m not sure whether women are simply more interested in travel/foreign countries than men so aiming travel services at women is simply a logical business decision or whether there is a concerted media and elite driven effort to encourage women to take up pursuits like “solo travel”?

  4. Balding thinks the ChiComs will avoid collapse and preserve their own power by closing China off from the world, becoming “North Korea with a higher level of income.”

    As an isolationist, I happen to think that “North Korea with a higher level of income” might not be such a bad thing at all–especially if the only alternative to it is globalism.

    “If this is what Oscar Wilde went to prison for, he ought to have got the Victoria Cross.”

    😀 😀 😀
    Thank you, Derb, for one of the funniest anecdotes I’ve read here at Unz in a while! I hadn’t heard that particular Kipling story before.

  5. A few risible observations:

    The common perceptions of other countries that we carry around in our heads are generally out of date, as these assertions demonstrate:

    The country’s wealth is distributed very unequally. There are a great many poor people living hard lives. I sometimes glimpsed them from the window of a train, but I don’t know any of them personally. The ChiComs have had an official War on Poverty for some years, but it seems to be ill-managed, under-funded, and ineffectual.

    In real life, China’s wealth is distributed far more equally than America’s. All of their bottom income quartile own their homes, for example, and a good chunk of the national wealth:

    Balding thinks the ChiComs will avoid collapse and preserve their own power by closing China off from the world, becoming “North Korea with a higher level of income.”

    Twofer Christopher Balding is a Gordon Chang wannabe. To his unblemished record of wrong economic predictions he added the laurel of being kicked out of China for breaking the terms of his contract and interfering in Chinese politics.

    Incidentally, Chris Chappell’s China Uncensored is sponsored by Falun Gong, a crackpot version of Scientology devoted to hating China.

    Falun Gong was founded in China by Li Hongzhi who thinks of himself as a higher being. Falun Gong mixes some Taoism and Buddhism with nutty ideas, conservative politics and strong anti-communism: Mr Li believes aliens walk the Earth and he has reportedly said he can walk through walls and make himself invisible. Mr Li says that he is a being from from a higher level who has come to help humankind from the destruction it could face as the result of rampant evil.

    Falun Gong is a business masquerading as a cult (like Scientology) derived from traditional Chinese spiritual and health beliefs (like western yoga) with restrictions on using modern medicine (like Jehovah’s Witnesses). It strictly educates and controls what its followers say and do, and is aim directly at taking down the Communist Party of China, so it happily profits from political arbitrage between China and the West. Falun Gong runs a propaganda campaign that’s far more sophisticated than the Communist Party of China. (Maybe they have help from a foreign agency with long experience in that field?)

    Falun Gong is funded by the equally batshit crazy US Government. ‘Nuf said.

    • Agree: Ber
    • Disagree: Hail
  6. Biff says:

    Pakistan. It’s not exactly on every solo female traveler’s bucket list. But that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be. Especially if you ask vlogger and content creator Eva zu Beck, who thinks Pakistan could be the world’s No. 1 tourism destination. [This Popular Solo Female Travel Vlogger Thinks Pakistan Could Be The World’s No. 1 Tourism Destination by Breanna Wilson; Forbes, October 11th 2019.]

    Well, if you want young WASP women to die at the hands of Muslims so you can demonize them even more(not that they need help) this would be a good thing. I wonder what ethnic group would want to do that?

  7. The ChiComs have had an official War on Poverty for some years, but it seems to be ill-managed, under-funded, and ineffectual.

    800 million of the Great Unwashed lifted out of poverty in the last 40 years and that’s the best you can do. The contributions of “Godfree Roberts” are the Ying to your Yang.

  8. @Ray Huffman

    Hey, wasn’t Japan supposed to eat all our lunches 30 years ago? I can’t remember the last time I heard the term “Japan Inc.”

    A piece of advice for China don’t sign the Plaza Accords 2.0 it’s bad for your economic health 😉.

  9. Richard P says:
    @Ray Huffman

    Pakistan is also known for its abundance of high peaks and appeal to mountaineers seeking an unmatched challenge.

  10. unit472 says:

    China’s ‘catch up’ phase is over and its labor force has peaked. Its going to face the same sort of problems as Japan and Western Europe where debt and demographics lead to economic stagnation. I’m not real sanguine about America’s prospects though. We are but one election away from our own ‘Cultural Revolution’ and California maybe closer to collapse than it thinks.

    Those recent wildfires are being traced back to their electric utilities despite the service cutoffs. The cuts are obviously going to have to be expanded and Southern California Edison is likely to end up bankrupt like PG&E. Business and travel just can’t function with power outages and major highway closures. Most of Marin County lost cell phone service because of the electric service cuts. There is no quick fix to this problem either it will take years and many billions to move power lines underground an its isn’t even feasible to do that in more rural areas or the canyons of Southern California.

    • Replies: @Medvedev
    , @iffen
    , @Lars Porsena
  11. Richard P says:

    My cab driver in Moscow was from Uzbekistan and he told me how he’d drive home several times a year to see his family. It’s a four day drive and the route is an adventure to say the least. During his last trip home, he hit a horse while travelling across a dangerous mountain pass at night in Pakistan. He was quite a character and I respected his venturesome style.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Svevlad
  12. @Richard P

    Pakistan is also known for its abundance of high peaks and appeal to mountaineers seeking an unmatched challenge.

    Yes, mountaineering while avoiding rape and decapitation certainly raises the stakes.

  13. Biff says:
    @Ray Huffman

    Pakistan is blessed with one of the greatest archaeological ruins in the world,

    And that would be?

    • Replies: @Ray Huffman
    , @Where-Wolf
  14. Biff says:
    @Richard P

    My cab driver in Moscow was from Uzbekistan and he told me how he’d drive home several times a year to see his family. It’s a four day drive and the route is an adventure to say the least. During his last trip home, he hit a horse while travelling across a dangerous mountain pass at night in Pakistan.

    Where do these people get their geography skills? Public schools?
    Nuts…..

    • Replies: @Richard P
  15. anonymous[242] • Disclaimer says:

    America is following western Europe into irreligion.

    I challenge the misleading notion that America/Europe was ever religious. Given the “religion” of said people, this notion, and the theological reality behind it, sounds quite worthy for the New Statesman list of deceitful ideas. 😀

    What America/Europe has had since forever, is pagan polytheist (imaginary)mangods-worship, which is simply akin to godlessness. For eg., do you pagans believe that whatever primitive abomination the Sentinelese believe is “religion”? No, of course not!

    In the same way, your pagan polytheist mangods-worship will always represent godlessness, and thus, irreligion.

    To reiterate, you fellows have never had “religion.”

    • Disagree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @NobodyKnowsImaDog
  16. Chinese students in our colleges desperate to get a green card so they can settle here post-graduation? No: As Ms Fan points out, more and more prefer to go home.

    I’ll add a bit more to this from my own sources. I know a number of Chinese people who want to stay but lately have had to go back to wait on visa updates or renewals. One wife had to go back in a hurry with the 2 kids after her husband’s visa was not renewed. Keep in mind, these are the honest people, not the ones who are living in a Chinatown somewhere who nobody can really find to send home. Is the Trump administration getting just a tad more serious on this?

    Regarding college itself, I haven’t read Miss Fan’s article (and haven’t even finished yours), but my knowledge is that plenty of students are sent by their parents to study here, because, get this: they can’t get into a good school in China!. Personally, I think they are wasting a whole lot of money, as those pieces of paper from the American declining (in quality) universities are going to be worth less and less over there.

    Wealthy Chinese buying property in the West for security in case China collapses? Not really a thing any more. People still buy for investment, but they’re not thinking of bolt-holes.

    I agree, not as bolt-holes, but OTOH, most middle-class Chinese (making maybe the equivalent of $1300 – $2,000/monthly) can’t afford to buy property in California or Washington. What’s happening is still a lot of government officials who “make $800 per month” buying 1/2 million dollar houses. Why? Because Chinese inflation is HIGH, as one of their biggest imports from the US of A. See “A Porcine Crisis in China” and the links therein. Everyone wants to park their wealth somewhere in which it won’t be continuously stolen via inflation.

    All that said, yes, you are right that many people’s recollections and opinions on places they may have visited long ago are almost set in stone. I thought of China as the “Wild, wild East” over 10 years ago, when I arrived there the first time. “Go East, young man” is not a bad idea, but then, China takes their borders seriously. For an American, you’d better have a good skill. (The English teaching is one option, but there’s no serious money in that – not a long-term option.)

  17. Svevlad says:
    @Richard P

    Going to Uzbekistan from Moscow, via Pakistan? In 4 days? Intriguing

    • Replies: @loren
  18. Anon 2 says:

    Re: Chinese immigration to the U.S.

    According to Wikipedia, the number of the Chinese Americans in the
    U.S. was increasing at the rate of 120,000 per year during the 2001-2010
    period. No reason to think this number has declined significantly
    in the last 10 years. The Chinese are still inundating the U.S. at the
    rate of at least 100,000 a year (both legal and illegal immigrants),
    in the process destroying the local subcultures in the United States,
    e.g., the North Beach in San Francisco, or Boston and Cambridge
    (which only several decades ago used to be dominated by the Irish
    and the Italians – both Catholic). The Chinese are largely non-Christian so
    they undermine the Catholic and Protestant cultures by simply being here.
    The problem is that China’s population is still exploding, increasing by
    5-6 million a year. When is this going to stop?

  19. @Godfree Roberts

    An excellent example of why Derbyshire is so dismissive of Godfree Roberts: “…another puff piece from the ChiCom propaganda office. The internet’s full of those. The genre is pinned at its most risible end by the contributions of “Godfree Roberts” at Unz Review…”

  20. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    and a good chunk of the national wealth

    The bottom income quartile does not own the public wealth. The share of public wealth of national wealth in China has decreased from 70% to 30% in the last 40 years as the share of private wealth has increased. It is obvious that Derbyshire was referring to private wealth inequality. Your own source gives a bit more context on this matter:

    We observe a large rise of top wealth shares in the US and China in recent decades, and a more moderate rise in France and the UK. A combination of factors explains these different dynamics. First, higher income inequality and severe bottom income stagnation can naturally explain higher wealth inequality in the US. Next, the very unequal process of privatization and access by Chinese households to quoted and unquoted equity probably played an important role in the very fast rise of wealth concentration in China, particularly at the very top end. The potentially large mitigating impact of high real estate prices should also be taken into account. This middle class effect is likely to have been particularly strong in France and the UK, where housing prices have increased significantly relative to stock prices.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  21. @Jus' Sayin'...

    AGREED! “Risible” must be the word of the day, and it works well here.

    I personally am partial to “lyin’ sack of shit”.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Vidi
  22. @Ray Huffman

    China has right at an order of magnitude more people than Japan did/does. That makes the difference. Yes, it IS different this time – See “There’s’ a lot of ruin in a Nation”Part 1, Part 2, and especially Part 3.

  23. I want to add, before I read more of this October Diary and have more stuff to say:

    Many, but not all, of the Chinese people I know, or am at least acquainted with, are Christians, or purport to be. Christians are still being treated badly in China. Churches get torn down still. Many Chinese are just forming “house churches”, which, when it come down to it, is pretty much what Jesus figured were churches anyway.

    What kind of bar graph do you have on religious tolerance in China, Godfree Roberts? Pull it out.

  24. Anon 2 says:

    A relevant article in today’s New York Times:

    “Vast U.S. dragnet targets Chinese theft of biomedical
    secrets”

    Unfortunately, the Chinese bring their corrupt, undemocratic,
    and criminal ways to the West. If the Chinese coming here were a high-
    quality people, it would be a different story. But too often this is
    not the case, as this article demonstrates.

    • Replies: @bluedog
    , @Showmethereal
  25. El Dato says:

    RT has gives good advice concerning the traveling blogging hoes:

    Glamorous travel blogger girls who edit all dirt & danger out of their extreme voyages jeopardize real-life women traveling solo

    Traveling solo has exploded in popularity among women over the past few years, with bookings made by single females up 88 percent in four years, according to HostelWorld. Many women surveyed point to another traveler’s stories as the inspiration for setting out on their own.

    There’s something to be said for seeking out authentic experiences at the far ends of the earth – i.e., places without thriving tourism industries. But such journeys take careful preparation and precautions, especially for a young woman traveling alone. And the average Instagram travel blogger glosses over all of this in favor of the breathtaking snaps they know their subscribers really want to see.

    Don’t become the main star of a death mpg uploaded to a ‘chan.

    • Replies: @c matt
    , @Colin Wright
  26. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I’ve noticed that the media heavily promotes solo travel to women, and that 80-90% of “travel blogs” are run by women. The travel industry in general, but especially the solo/”adventure” travel industry is heavily aimed at women.

    Is it adventure travel for women, or sex tourism for women?

    Or am I just an incorrigible cynic?

    • LOL: Daniel H
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Forbes
    , @Where-Wolf
  27. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:

    Take Derb’s analysis on China with the same degree of accuracy you would D.C.-based Kremlinologists during the Cold War. Actually, maybe less. Derb is an outsider and will always be an outsider. He’s not Chinese. He doesn’t have a Chinese brain and doesn’t see the world through Chinese eyes. #DNAMatters

    It’s kind of the like in the movie Three Days of the Condor, where bookish know-it-all CIA employee Joe Turner (played by Robert Redford) has a question about the real meaning of a Chinese ideogram. He asks American-born and raised Janice Chong (played by Tina Chen).

    Joe Turner : Are you sure about this ideogram?
    Janice : Look at this face. Could I be wrong about an ideogram?
    [Turner laughs]
    Joe Turner : It’s a great face. But it’s never been to China.

    Doesn’t matter, Joe, look at her face. Only go to a Chinaman for questions about China. #DNAMatters

  28. Anon 2 says:

    Since most Americans cannot distinguish among the Chinese, Japanese,
    Koreans (and even Vietnamese), the widespread criminal activity by the
    Chinese (e.g., stealing scientific secrets at universities) will have the unfortunate
    effect that ALL East Asians will be viewed with suspicion

  29. Rahan says:

    “Balding thinks the ChiComs will avoid collapse and preserve their own power by closing China off from the world, becoming “North Korea with a higher level of income.””

    ***

    China becoming “a hermit kingdom like North Korea?”

    China is a member of a bunch of international organizations, first of all, BRICS, SHMICKS, and so on, and is at the center of the One Belt new silk road thing.

    Just through this, the whole Eurasian landmass countries are interconnected with each other, with all roads intersecting on China.

    Further, we’ve got the New Scramble for Africa, where the main players are China, India, and Japan.

    Further still, we’ve the inroads China is trying to dig into South America.

    So, as basic minimum, China is in a pretty open relationship with a) Eurasia, b) Africa, c) parts of South America.

    What’s left? The Anglosphere. And the behavior of the Anglosphere basically follows that of the sphere’s current hegemon—the USA. Who’s the “hermit kingdom” now?
    Russia, by the way, is also part of the new Eurasian construct. It’s also part of the interconnected web together with China, India, Central Asia, and Iran.

    While China is only getting a little taste of economic warfare from the US, Russia is getting it from both the Anglosphere and the EU, and Japan. However, that’s not really the whole world, is it? Not anymore. Even without the Anglosphere, the EU, and Japan, Russia is still part of a huge continent-spanning web of markets and military relations. China—much more so.

    Now that Britain is leaving the EU, Europe will be very tempted to fill the void with Russia and China, BTW.

    So, to summarize. A China that is at the center of a sprawling intercontinental mesh of turboglobalist relations does not suddenly become a “hermit kingdom”, no matter what the relations with “the West”, even if the Anglosphere truly decides to “decouple”.

    Sheesh, some people’s heads are so deep up their colons, their craniums are starting to get digested.
    Caveat: not saying something like “yay China boo USA”, just saying “careful with that stomach acid, dude, it’s reaching your frontal lobes.”

  30. @Biff

    Google is your friend.

    • Replies: @Wally
  31. @Richard P

    They are absolutely spectacular. Even more than the Himalayas.

    BBC's famous Planet Earth series featuring Baltoro Pakistan

    BBC's famous Planet Earth series featuring Earth's biggest mountain glacier- the Baltoro in Pakistan, which is 70 kilometres (43 mi) long and visible from space…

    Posted by Karakoram Highway Pakistan on Tuesday, 17 September 2013

    They also have lots of non-productive land that could be stocked with wildlife brought in from India and turned into national parks which would bring in even more tourists.

    India is one of the biggest tourism countries in the world and Pakistan has everything India does–except for majority non-Muslim population.

  32. @Biff

    I’ve been to many shit holes globally (ex Africa, I’m not that crazy), and parts of the Bay Area are now definitely in competition.

    Just two days ago, we were visiting Berkeley and some cretinous vagrant decided to plow into me full force as we were walking on the sidewalk, shouting something about “you wanna go, blue eyes?” For a moment, I was tempted by his invitation as I had never gotten into a really *good* brawl and I had been lifting regularly, but after a few tense seconds decided I didn’t want to ruin the young evening for our guests.

    Interactions like this, though not always physical, are routine now: someone defecating, shooting up, shouting incoherently, or stealing on almost every trip I make to SF or Berkeley (which is thankfully rare). Even the world view of my hard-core leftist acquaintance who still calls Berkeley home is starting to show signs of strain. And yet most people here in the Democratic stronghold seem to think the problem is conservatism/republicans/NRA.

    • Replies: @Marty
  33. David says:

    Maybe the foremost problem our country faces is that even people of the Derb’s excellence can’t think of any channel for right-leaning-religiosity besides dark nationalism. How about the Rule of Law and the Bill of Rights? Seemed to get Ben Franklin’s spiritual longings satisfied, that and a family.

    Also, one of the reasons I feel less than optimistic about the state and future of the US, is that I have to work with stupid, arrogant Chinese people who spell their names with four or five unpronounced letters, who bristle at any sign of cultural loyalty to my own people, and who cry like babies to HR if exposed to any thought about China that is other than glowingly positive. All the damn people who move here from other “populations,” the one’s least likely to care about the rule of law and the bill of rights.

  34. I am not convinced that China’s cities have solved their air pollution problems well enough to be healthy places to live.

    • Agree: Hail
  35. Anon 2 says:

    Unfortunately, compared to Japan, the Chinese (and East Indians)
    are low-quality people. Compare the Corruption Perceptions rankings:

    Japan 19
    the U.S. 22
    South Korea 45
    India 78
    China 87
    N. Korea 176

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  36. Icy Blast says:

    Derbyshire, Christianity is not in decline, you are. And your credibility is declining with you. I tried to read your monstrous heap of drivel, “We’re Doomed.” What a waste of time. It seemed to have been written by a team of writers including Richard Topcliffe and Daniel Boorstin. How you managed to get fired from “National Review” I can’t understand. You should have Rich Lowry’s job!

  37. c matt says:
    @El Dato

    I always wondered where those “moments before tragedy strikes” photos came from.

  38. Alfa158 says:

    Having had a Catholic school 1950’s education, I not only got to learn computing cube roots, but doing arithmetic with Roman numerals. Even at that tender age I knew it was good mental exercise but essentially of no practical value.
    I sometimes think that many college degrees are like that. The employer doesn’t care so much about the knowledge or skills you gained, but that you demonstrated the discipline and intelligence to finish it.

    • Agree: utu, Counterinsurgency
  39. Jesse says:

    A lot of the people you see on their phones are actually reading books through an app. You should try something similar.

    • Replies: @Richard P
  40. @Anonymous

    The male blogosphere explains why single women want to travel, and why the travel industry is on the right track marketing to them.

    Women want excitement, thrills, and they love to brag about it to their friends (real and online).

    Part of that is many want sex without consequences as well.

    Expect the body count of murdered traveling white females in the third world go up in the next few years.

    Situational awareness is not their long suit.

    As the old song said: “Bye, bye, baby.”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Kiel
  41. @David

    Your 2nd paragraph kind of contradicts your 1st one, David. Don’t get me wrong, as I am a Libertarian, and BenFranklin would have to be one of my favorite Founders, if put to a vote. However, you write of the “dark nationalism”. If you don’t believe in nationalism, is it not hypocritical of you to complain about your Chinese colleagues who sure don’t give a damn about the rule of law/Bill of Rights?

    BTW, I agree with you that they don’t. This had been covered in Peak Stupidity‘s “Citizenship in the Nation” post. Do you think millions of people from China, India, and Mexico who couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the Magna Carta and the ideas of the Founding Fathers should be here?

    (If “yes”, then I hate to tell you, but you may be one of those dark nationalists!)

    • Replies: @David
  42. Glad to help out, Sir. Peking is in north-central China; 400 miles southwest of Mukden, 280 miles west of Port Arthur, 1,200 miles north of Amoy. You’re welcome!

    That was my favorite part of the “diary” today! If you happen to have read the comments under one of your very recent articles here, I got in a silly exchange about these names.

    I can tell you that I DID know that Shenyang used to be Muckden, but that was only from reading a book called China Pilot about some of the “Air America” guys. A very close Chinese friend of mine has never heard of the name. I gotta admit, “Muckden” does NOT roll off the tongue like Cathay, Peking, Canton, and Formosa, so I’m not gonna be a stickler on that one.

  43. Marty says:
    @Mark Miller

    I was treated to a woman suddenly lifting her skirt and defecating in the gutter on Bancroft Way in Berkeley in 1999, and I received a “polar bear” slugging on the same street in 1997, not losing consciousness, only a front tooth.

  44. @Icy Blast

    Which country do you live in, where Christianity is not in decline?

    • Replies: @Richard P
  45. Yakov says:

    No Jews, no Blaccs. The world is their oyster. Imagine what the West could have done without history’s greatest parasites

  46. @anonymous

    No matter how you cut it inequality is lower, and falling, in China than in the US, where it is rising.

  47. @Achmed E. Newman

    Religious tolerance is constitutionally guaranteed, but it comes with religious wariness.

    When Dominique Parennin, a Jesuit missionary, requested permission to proselytize in 1724 the Yongzheng Emperor[1] explained that his god posed a danger to the State because it demanded foreign intermediaries:

    You say that your law is not a false law, 非左道, and We believe you. If We thought that it was false what would have held Us back from razing your churches and expelling you from the empire? False laws are those which, on the pretext of teaching virtue, fan the spirit of revolt, as is the case with the White Lotus[2] Teaching.

    What would you say if We were to dispatch a group of monks and lamas to your country to preach their doctrines? How would they be received? Your Matteo Ricci came to China in the 1572 when you Christians were few in number and did not have your people and churches in every province. It was only under the reign of my father that you began to build churches everywhere and that your doctrines started spreading rapidly. We observed this, but we said nothing.

    You may have known how to deceive Our Father, but don’t think you can deceive Us in the same way. You wish to make all Chinese Christians, as your law demands. We know this very well. But in that case what would become of Us? Should We not soon become merely the subjects of your kings? The converts you have made already recognize nobody but you and, in troubled times, they would listen to no other voice than yours. We know that at present We have nothing to fear but, when foreign ships start coming in their thousands and tens of thousands perhaps then serious disorders will arise.

    Sixty years later, foreign ships came in their tens of thousands and a Christian uprising killed thirty-million people and the weakened dynasty never recovered.

    Though two-thirds[3] of Chinese are atheists (in the Western sense) and one-fourth are non-religious Taoists, the Constitution guarantees freedom of worship to sanctioned religious organizations and the government supports seventy-four seminaries, one thousand seven hundred Tibetan monasteries, three thousand religious organizations, 39,000 mosques, 85,000 religious sites and 300,000 full time Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Ancient Chinese, Taoist and Moslem clergy making China statistically the world’s most tolerant nation.

    On a more contemporary note: US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S. Department of State from 1979-1981:

    “I don’t see any reason why Tibet being part of China should be any more controversial than Wales being part of the United Kingdom. The periods when they were put into that position were about the same. I recall, as probably most people don’t, that the the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet and basically financed and trained the participants in the Khampa rebellion and ultimately sought to remove the Dalai Lama from Tibet–which they did. They escorted him out of Tibet to Dharamsala. ..

    “The CIA programs in Tibet, which were very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang. There were similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in support of a desire for independence or autonomy which is, of course, is anathema to any state. I do believe that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones applies here. I am part American Indian and those people are not here (in the US) in the numbers they once were because of severe genocidal policies on the part of the European majority”. 8/31/18
    https://supchina.com/podcast/legendary-diplomat-chas-w-freeman-jr-on-u-s-china-strategy-and-history-part-3/


    [1] ‘Yongzheng’s Conundrum. The Emperor on Christianity, Religions, and Heterodoxy’, Menegon. An Emperor Confronts Christianity and the Heterodox, Part II: Eugenio Menegon.
    [2] White Lotus is the name of a revolutionary secret society founded in the 14th century.
    [3] Gallup

  48. Richard P says:
    @Biff

    Where do these people get their geography skills? Public schools?

    Probably? I was perplexed as Pakistan is SE of Uzbekistan — and by a significant distance. Perhaps there’s no direct route and thus would require one to travel further east to circumvent the mountains?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  49. G. Poulin says:

    I will believe China is 1950’s America when I hear Chinese surf music coming out of my Chinese portable AM transistor radio.

  50. @David

    oops! “If ‘no’, then I hate to tell you …”

  51. Richard P says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Many of places throughout the world — especially in Africa, Eurasia and South America. Russia has been experiencing a resurgence of Orthodox Christianity like not seen since the days of Nicholas II.

    I can attest to the resurgence in Russia as I’ve recently returned from a pilgrimage in the aforementioned country. Churches are packed and Christianity in it’s purest form play a significant role in the daily lives of most Russians. Traditionalism is alive and well in Russia. Spending time in Russia was a breath of fresh air and I shed tears of sadness when my flight touched down at JFK.

    I walked 5-10 miles a day while in St. Petersburg and to a lesser extent in Moscow — and was never bothered once as the people were respectful and kind. Try that in any major US city and see what happens.

    It was nothing but a positive experience and wonderful to see many of people visibly wearing the St. Andrews Cross or keeping a picture of an Orthodox Icon in their wallet — which is something that I noticed when Russians would open up their wallet to pay while in lines.

    Holy Rus’ – The Rebirth of Orthodoxy in the New Russia

    https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300222241/holy-rus

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  52. @Godfree Roberts

    Sixty years later, foreign ships came in their tens of thousands …

    … a Christian uprising killed thirty-million people and the weakened dynasty never recovered.

    If you are talking about the Taiping Rebellion, that was started by a crazy Chinaman who was under the impression that he was Jesus Christ’s kid brother. The great civil war that resulted was Chinese against Chinese. You put these 2 together to make it sound like foreigners were the instigators of this war.

    Now, you all know “the rest of the story”. Godfree, maybe what we need is a Chinese Paul Harvey to help clear up the BS that you spread.

    As for all your references and your previous lies about Chinese history, well, I’m not about to believe you on the situation in present-day China either. I’ve been there near a dozen times. You obviously haven’t (I asked you 2 or 3 times). I just heard a story about a church being razed by the government. I guess that’s religious tolerance with Chinese wariness characteristics.

  53. Richard P says:
    @Jesse

    A lot of the people you see on their phones are actually reading books through an app.

    I digress. I spend a lot of time reading at independent coffee shops — especially ones nestled in mountain communities throughout the Mountain West as this is a region where I spend a significant amount of time. Because of the intimate nature of many of these establishments, it’s quite easy to obtain an idea of what someone else is doing — or reading — while patronizing the aforementioned establishment.

    As I have exceptional situational awareness and am hypervigilant, it’s natural for me to scan my environment more than once. I notice everything and can confirm that the majority of people who are glued to their smartphones aren’t reading anything of substance, but rather scrolling through an endless void of mindless twaddle (social media).

  54. @Achmed E. Newman

    From the point of view of the government, the Taiping Rebellion was a normal Christian massacre, typical of thousands, the result of an infection brought by Christian missionaries that the Emperor expressly predicted.

    You can believe Ambassador Freeman or not, as you please, and you can see churches being razed anywhere you go like, for example, France:

    • Replies: @Alden
  55. Jivilov says:

    Good one Derb, as usual. Informative and circumspect at the same time. We don’t get that from Lefty media! The Kipling anecdote was a real scream.

    Speaking of unfinished reading matter, bought Jonah Goldberg’s Suicide of the West on sale and got somewhere like halfway into it before checking the index. There isn’t a single entry for you, James Watson, James Damore, Dr. Timothy Hunt, and others who’ve lost their jobs (if not their careers) and/or been hounded from “respectable” so-called intellectual society for offending the Goddess of Diversity. So if Goldberg isn’t exactly a Lefty hitman he’s certainly a tacit collaborator in the muzzling of dissent.

    Thanks again and keep on truckin’. Cheers!

  56. @Rahan

    What’s left? The Anglosphere. And the behavior of the Anglosphere basically follows that of the sphere’s current hegemon—the USA. Who’s the “hermit kingdom” now?

  57. Rahan says:

    For *modern leftwingers*, it takes great self-discipline to not get carried away in the rah rah ebil Russia mass hysteria.

    *Modern rightwingers* are currently in the process of being swamped in a mirror image rah rah ebil China mass hysteria.

    Having the collective left toss and turn while muttering “no, Putin, no!”, and the collective right toss and turn while muttering “no, Xi, no!” may be super funny at first glance, but on second glance, it’s super sad.

    Both phenomena are interfering with getting one’s house in order. I’m kinda a Petersonist in this sense: first clean your room–then start telling the world how to live.

    And the US and Britain and Canada all need a very, very good cleaning, because not only are they infested with mold and cocroaches–it’s gone beyond that–now the very carrying walls are starting to crack and lose chunks.

    Close the borders, fix self, come back to world rejuvinated. That’s, I think, the way to go. Closing the borders forever will lead to solipsism ala Japan/China before their 19th century humiliations, and the following need to scramble to catch up, but not closing the borders at least for a decade will likely, IMO, lead to a slow boil dissolvement. Already is, I’d say.

    • Replies: @bike-anarkist
  58. loren says:
    @Svevlad

    silk trail or opium run?

  59. “…just when I thought I’d gotten China out of my system…”

    Derbyshire, China is never out of your system. You are regularly in China. Your Chinese offspring are the proof.

    However, for once you scribbled something that is actually good news.

    You wrote about Jean Fan. The fact that she and other Chinese in the West are returning to China is very good news for the West. I googled her. She would be quite a catch for your son. Then you and the rest of your Chinese family can go back to China with her.

    • Agree: Sunshine
    • LOL: Escher
    • Replies: @Dumbo
  60. @El Dato

    ‘… …There’s something to be said for seeking out authentic experiences at the far ends of the earth – i.e., places without thriving tourism industries. But such journeys take careful preparation and precautions, especially for a young woman traveling alone. And the average Instagram travel blogger glosses over all of this in favor of the breathtaking snaps they know their subscribers really want to see…’

    There’s also the point that nothing happening to you on your trip doesn’t demonstrate that the place is safe.

    I can play a round of Russian roulette. Five times out of six, I’ll report back that nothing happened.

    • Replies: @Richard P
  61. @Richard P

    Christianity has historically been the framework of Russia’s defense against foreigners. Perhaps it can be so again.

    Counterinsurgency

  62. anonymous1963 [AKA "Anon20"] says:

    I would take 1950’s America over the crap we have today.

  63. @Icy Blast

    Christianity in the West appears to have turned against the West. By demanding that we now living atone for the sins of our ancestors (as now understood) at the cost of our very lives if necessary, it has become quite literally a death cult.
    And it has done this at the very time it has also said that the Old Testament is a book of fiction, written partly for propaganda purposes and partly from human pride about ability to construct moving fictions. This statement eliminates any trace of authority for the atonement demand mentioned above.

    These are really not good developments.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  64. @anonymous

    400 years ago a priest would have you burned alive for saying that.

  65. @Achmed E. Newman

    If you are talking about the Taiping Rebellion, that was started by a crazy Chinaman who was under the impression that he was Jesus Christ’s kid brother. The great civil war that resulted was Chinese against Chinese. You put these 2 together to make it sound like foreigners were the instigators of this war.

    The Wikipedia article on Taiping Rebellion [1] has a section on origins that is worth reading. It does mention “natural disasters”, but does not mention that the Yellow River had shifted course yet again, making much developed farmland infertile and requiring years or decades to make the land through which the Yellow River now flowed productive. During such a change, millions of people could starve. This happened at a time when China’s population was doubling, perhaps in response to new food sources from the Americas. The Ming government appears to have fallen into extreme corruption, perhaps from an attempt on the part of Ming officials to gather what money they could in an attempt to save at least themselves from the consequences of a failing government.

    The adaptation of an apparently half understood Christianity to bolster the rebellion was simply an attempt to claim the prestige and perhaps supernatural powers of the Europeans, who had done the inexplicable. Rebellion would have occurred with or without the Europeans, as it usually did when the Yellow River shifted, and some other way of claiming supernatural favor for the revolt would have been used.

    Note the participation of “Chinese Gordon” in this war [2]. As I understand it, many in China though that the participation of a Christian in suppressing a Christian revolt discredited Christianity. Obviously, there was quite a bit of confusion over what “Christianity” meant.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
    2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Gordon

    2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

  66. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I personally am partial to “lyin’ sack of shit” [with regard to Godfree Roberts].

    I notice that you haven’t been able to counter Dr. Roberts’ facts (nor Ron Unz’s facts), so you resort to insults.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  67. Anonymous[296] • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom

    They wouldn’t put it that crudely, but yes, they’re looking for love.

    That book, “Eat, Prey, Love”, is the cause of this, with emphasis on love.

  68. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    Why is China kicking out foreigners such a bad idea again? Especially when there are so many people in the west who would love nothing more than to participate in some color revolutions and help bring down China?

    You think America didn’t kick out troublemaking foreigners when it was an emerging power?

    Also, English teachers are low quality on the totum poll. They just speak the language they were born with lol. And besides, that kind of work can be done on the internet now a days anyway.

  69. Medvedev says:
    @unit472

    China’s ‘catch up’ phase is over and its labor force has peaked. Its going to face the same sort of problems as Japan and Western Europe where debt and demographics lead to economic stagnation.

    China has 3 times more people then Western Europe, 4.25 more than US, 11 times more than Japan. If Chinese income reaches Western European or Japanese standards it will translate into $60-65 trillion juggernaut.
    China still has another 20-30 years until their median age will catch up with Germany or Japan.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  70. Hail says: • Website
    @Anon 2

    The problem is that China’s population is still exploding, increasing by
    5-6 million a year. When is this going to stop?

    Demographers tell us that China has an imminent aging problem that will make Japan’s look tame.

  71. Richard P says:
    @Colin Wright

    And the average Instagram travel blogger glosses over all of this in favor of the breathtaking snaps they know their subscribers really want to see…’

    Our society has become utterly pathetic, narrassistic, and self-serving. I’ve traveled to quite a few “exotic” locations worldwide for both personal and professional endeavors. My pictures are primarily taken as a memento for myself. I rarely share my pictures with anyone other than family and select peers. My social media accounts were deleted nearly five years ago. Rather than worrying about taking pictures for the world to see, I’m more concerned about embracing the present during my experiences. By doing this, one is truly living life.

    I also practice keen situational awareness and worrying about posting pictures on social media only further exposes one to unnecessary — and perhaps imminent — dangers.

  72. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s was easy for Gauss to do all that stuff and enjoy it because he had an estimated IQ of 25-300!

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @adreadline
  73. https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-reportedly-sending-men-sleep-180155988.html

    China is reportedly sending men to sleep in the same beds as Uighur Muslim women

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Blinky Bill
  74. @Medvedev

    Nothing to worry about (sarc.). Look up Africa’s median age. And the subcontinent’s four nations. Those Africans and subcontinentals have nothing else to do except breed and wait to replace these aging populations. And that is the UN’s population plan:

    https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/ageing/replacement-migration.asp

    How do you any UN member states plan to counter this while remaining in the UN and subscribing to this global population policy?

  75. @Counterinsurgency

    I have an increasing sympathy for Diocletion’s religious policies.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  76. Seraphim says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I recently went on a tour in China. We traveled much by train. In many places I noticed buildings looking like churches. We asked the guide what were they. ‘Churches’ was the answer, ‘there are many Christians in China, my mother is a Christian’.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  77. gotmituns says:

    Christianity should go back to the time before usury was allowed by Pope Leo X (1515). If they take that “revolutionary” step, they will save the faith. But I don’t see it happening because of the effete priesthood or ministry. Anything less than that will ensure the complete collapse of the religion and probably Western Civilization.

  78. @Anonymous

    They also have more leisure time, if you look at women from the age of 18/college (cuddled and provided for by their father’s cash), to their wild single years with that first 50k (affirmative action) job, to their post-wall adventure mindset and/or post-divorce cash windfall, or later cat years. All along the way, women have much less to worry about, and access to someone else’s hard-earned money.

  79. Hail says: • Website

    Jean Fan:

    Growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I had always imagined myself living and working here …

    But for the first time last March, I found myself thinking: “I might not mind living in China.” After all, Chinese cities continue to become cleaner and nicer, people’s lives become easier and more convenient, and the government competently handles more and more pressing problems.

    My immediate reaction to the excerpts Derb posts from Jean Fan was:

    “I see the Chinese ethnocentrism shining through.”

    The Chinese have always been known for their ethnocentrism while in diaspora, and for that trait among others they were called the Jews of the East by Western observers back into the early 19th century (apparently the first recorded case of this is 1833).

    The essay reads a little like a Zionist essay written by a Diaspora Jew.

    Even though it’s naught but a few bare lines of copy-pasted text, and I know nothing else of this person but Derbyshire’s short description (who mentions she is “young”), the reaction was distinct. I recognize the type here. Or what appears to be the type. She’s not endorsing the Chinese state, or the Chinese economy. She is endorsing the Chinese racial nation. She feels attracted back to it, like salmon back up the river.

    I see from her CV that she was likely born in 1990 or 1991, and says she “grew up” in the SF Bay Area. Parents Tienanmen Square stock?

    And so this makes me wonder about why she singled out “last March.” I would suggest the possibility that now that as she is in her late 20s, she feels, for the first time, the maternal call, the internal drive towards marriage. She is a recent PhD (2018?), and as that was her trajectory in life, it is only now that her adult life is kind of beginning. And the maternal instinct is often tied with ethnic/kin-group feeling, for almost all peoples of all times and places (though less for us NW Europeans; even for us it is historically strong; imagine what it is for them).

    So she felt it fully formed in March, this call of the motherland, this call of the race, triggered by some unstated event but allowed for by her wrapping up her PhD of late.

    The whole thing, viewed in this light, feels ultimately less of political (as Derb seems to interpret it) and more instinctual/biological. Recalling also that this is someone who visits China for “weeks” every year, I think this makes a lot of sense.

  80. @Anon 2

    Everyone keeps presupposing that countries like China or India are limited by their nations’ geographical boundaries. Chinese taking over Africa (or America for that matter) will still be “Chinese” wherever they are, and wherever they are, will be part of “China”. Kinda more like the British Empire used to be, vs. how American ex-pats are usually quirky “blend in” types.

    The Chinese population will find new places to plant, like Canada, the US and Africa, as they already are and nothing except the rule and enforcement of law, will stop them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  81. @Richard P

    K2 is supposed to be more difficult and far more lethal than Everest. I suppose one could access it from the China side if one didn’t want to deal with the Pakistanis.

    • Replies: @Richard P
  82. iffen says:
    @unit472

    There is no quick fix to this problem either it will take years and many billions to move power lines underground

    Why can’t the California PCS just allow the electric utilities to do basic ROW maintenance?

    • Replies: @Alden
  83. @Vidi

    As a counter, I’ve argued with Mr. Roberts* before on unz, and it’s especially his knowledge of 20th century Chinese history that is contrary to all historical sources. I’ve read 10 books on the Cultural Revolution, and probably an equal amount on the time from the Japanese invasion to 1980s, after Deng had got the country on a somewhat capitalist footing.

    Now, Mr. Unz (along with Mr. Roberts) had a few points on the Tiananmen Square incident that I hadn’t known. I don’t mind learning something new. The basic idea of Godfree Roberts that Communism helped China and the Chinese people is the BIG LIE.

    The BIG LIE works (for a while), don’t get me wrong, but you’ve gotta be a Goebbels, or Assistant to the Pol Pot, with the absolute authority of a Police State and un-armed population, to do this BIG LIE thing right. If you are some ex-pat in Thailand, have never been to the country you write about, and only know what Chinese Communist Party publications and your Commie parents told you, usually it just won’t take. Like now.

    .

    * BTW, when did he become a Doctor, and of what? Dr. of Thai Ex-pat retiremnt? Dr. of Communism?

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Herald
    , @bluedog
    , @Vidi
  84. @anonymous

    It’s was easy for Gauss to do all that stuff and enjoy it because he had an estimated IQ of 25-300!

    Gauss appears to have been delusional. Exceptional mathematical ability might come with a price.

    One could also point to instances of Newton and Riemann doing long computations just for the fun of it …

    I cannot picture Newton, or Riemann, or any notable physicist or mathematician of the 19th century and back, doing needlessly long computations “for the fun of it”. For almost everything worthy of mention those men did, they did with a purpose in mind — not for leisure. I doubt they even thought of such a concept.

  85. @Counterinsurgency

    I’d read the wiki article, C.I., and here is a decent quick summary by a guy named James Haught of the Charleston, WV Gazette. This Civil War resulted in from 20,000,000 dead to over 50,000,000 (though it’s hard to separate battle deaths from deaths by starvation).

    I wonder what Confucius would have to say about this, what with the emphasis on harmony and all.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  86. Walter says:

    We learned to extract cube roots by hand in the 7th grade al-gebra (those perfidious A-rabs!).

    The exquisite Ms Largo, upon whose corporeal being no flaw, flat, rounded, or otherwise, could be seen withered us with sarcasm and thrilled us with her smiles – and motivated all the boys and even the girls.

    I seems to recall Feynman saying the John von Neumann taught him to do logarithms in his head – something like that.

    These days we no longer even memorize telephone numbers…

  87. @Anon 2

    The problem is that China’s population is still exploding, increasing by
    5-6 million a year.

    This is not any kind of (virtual) explosion, Anon 2. That’s an ~0.35% increase. Because the big wave of only children, starting around 1980, is from 0 to 40 years old now, most of the new Chinese grandparents will have only a couple of grandchildren. This 5-6 million annual increase (your number – I haven’t checked it) will go down to a negative number soon enough.

    That does not negate your point at all though, that 20 million more Chinese can immigrate to America, and it won’t make a dent. In China, that is! It will make another big dent here.

    There are a lot of Chinese becoming Christian though, but with those big numbers, yeah, it may not be a big proportion. The problem is that the Chinese religion of today is Materialism, period. The years of hard-core Communism beat any of the old stuff out of them. It’s very hard to overcome the pure materialism now, even with Christianity.

  88. One observation for Derb. Much like China has turned the corner, Russia did, too.

    Given your relatively recent runts about Russia, perhaps your ideas about that country are obsolete as well?

  89. Wally says:
    @Ray Huffman

    IOW, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    • Troll: Ray Huffman
  90. @Seraphim

    I believe you. However, from the news off of WeChat, whenever the central government decides to go on a rampage about it, they go on a rampage about it. The latest was very recently. Many people are just meeting in homes for church, as I wrote.

    We know a Chinese lady who is on some kind of visa to stay in America for a year or so. She is a member of the Communist Party. She went to a church here one time, but said she would not want the CCP back home to ever know of this. We believe that was actually just an excuse (as, how would they ever know?) because she thought the preacher was too boring.

    I’ll be able to look for myself at churches there in the medium/near future.

  91. PeterMX says:

    The past is the best indicator for the future. Every once in a while there is a major event in the world which no one foresees that changes everything, but this is rare. The collapse of the USSR and the resulting freedom for eastern Europe and reunification of Germany is an example but things like this are very rare.

    Over the past 40 years China has risen from being one of the poorest and backwards countries in the world to being the second biggest economy in the world, and some people put them at number one. China has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty at the same time, an amazing achievement. I think they benefitted to a degree by the generosity of western powers willing to make it possible for China (and others) to acquire adavanced technology without paying for it, but they would have eventually made these same advances without that help. By contrast, the US still leads the world in certain areas, but these are now only a few fields. It still has a significant lead in pure science (Nobel Prizes) but that does not have a direct affect on GNP. Also, the standard of living in the US is low for many tens of millions of people, crime and violence in many cities is much higher than China and American students do not perform well compared to other countries, in particular Asian countries. Also, the USA has an enormous debt that some financial experts say it can never pay off and an economic catastrophe is approaching fast, as in the next year possibly.

    Regardless of whether that catastrophe actually takes place, all indicators point to a continue rise of China at its breathtaking speed and the general slow decline of the US, as has been happening relative to China for over the last 40 years. In order for Europe and the US to turn things around they will have to make some major changes. In my opinion one of those changes has to be to cut off immigration from third world countries where most of the people are uneducated, low achievers. Exceptions could be made for any high achievers they have.

    I think China will blast past the USA within the next few years so that there will be no doubt about who has the biggest economy in the world. They will also surpass the US in high technology fields, just as they did with 5G.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  92. Red China bad.
    China fails at this and that.
    Red China bad.
    China succeeds in this or that.
    Oh, these are overblown, red China bad!
    Someone reports positively on China.
    This is a fake bot. Red China bad.

    Fact is that red China is kicking ass in a non imperial manner and is winning over way more friends without making them vassals.

    You can hate on previous mistakes all you want, but China is on a upward path and cares little for the naysayers, especially now when there are so many things to be truly proud of.

    Haters are gonna hate, China will grow, be better, smarter, cleaner and stronger no matter what the US does to her. China will achieve what Japan never did because of its vassal status and will be the true envy of all free nations. Unlike the US it is going to be genuine growth that isn’t based on subjecting others but empowering them. Much will be better in the world in the coming Chinese century.

    • Replies: @anon
  93. “… just when I thought I’d gotten China out of my system…”

    You sirrah! will never get China out of you for you’re infected with the yellow fever!

    • Agree: Sunshine
  94. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Are they also making lamps out of the Uighurs?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  95. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @OscarWildeLoveChild

    How is this different than what America does?

    Who wants to see Walmart and McDonalds come to their country and see big American companies slap them around. When these big companies don’t get what they want they call on big brother for a color revolution.

    I don’t see China going so far. Their people will go abroad and do business, their companies will be successfull overseas, but their government won’t try and colonize the world.

    Also lol at American expats blending in. No. American expats try and conquer and over throw countries.

  96. @Achmed E. Newman

    The Chinese aversion to powerful religions is historic and is not limited to Communism.

    The Inexhaustible Treasury; in 713, Emperor Xuanzong liquidated the highly lucrative Inexhaustible Treasury, which was run by a prominent Buddhist monastery in Chang’an. This monastery collected vast amounts of money, silk, and treasures through multitudes of anonymous rich people’s repentances, leaving the donations on the premises without providing their name. Although the monastery was generous in donations, Emperor Xuanzong issued a decree abolishing their treasury on grounds that their banking practices were fraudulent, collected their riches, and distributed the wealth to various other Buddhist monasteries, Daoist abbeys, and to repair statues, halls, and bridges in the city.

    It should be noted that the Mahāyāna Buddhists were indeed accumulating rather huge amounts of wealth, lending it out at interest and had a philosophy of redeeming the world which involved converting the entire world. The Buddhists may or may not have meant well; they still ended up causing harm to economic activity(David Graeber notes that they were gradually accumulating specie and no longer circulating them) and becoming a rival power bloc by through practices.

  97. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gorgeous George

    If you’re not Chinese I feel bad for your brainwashed ass. You talk about China empowering but it subjugates and oppresses Tibetans and Uyghur minorities. The only reason China doesn’t do any conquering is not because they are good, but because they have a paper tiger military and no true warrior spirit. If China had the power, they would be the most evil hegemon imaginable, we’d all be treated like the way they treat their own slave citizens. All I know is Japan has a much better reputation globally than China. The only nations that hate Japan are Chinese and Koreans.

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Gorgeous George
  98. @Anonymous

    Sure, this is all a Zeeeonist plot. Ebrything is. All unpleasant aspects of Chinese culture, too …


  99. Goddard says:

    I lived in Shanghai 10+ years, until 2018, and I traveled throughout the country running birdwatching tours. Derbyshire is right about the improvement in the lives of Chinese. I’d add that in some ways, the propaganda on TV commercials here in the States is worse than the propaganda run by the Communists in China. The Chinese have their “Taiwan is part of China,” to which I shot back at many a brainwashed Chinese with, “I was in Taiwan and didn’t meet a single person who wants reunification,” which was true, and often got my interlocutor to admit that I probably was right. Here in America, on our commercials and sitcoms on TV we have our Grrrrrrl Power! and Inept White Dude and Wise Person of Color, conditioning more powerful and more generally swallowed by Americans than anything the Communists put out and expect the Chinese to swallow.

    In China there is also a refreshing sense of national purpose and PC-free thinking on some matters. I was birding in northern Xinjiang and got stopped at roadblock after roadblock but always got through in minutes. My driver told me why: The cops aren’t looking for people like you, he said, a white foreigner. They’re targeting Uighurs, especially young Uighur men. Most Uighur men want no trouble and are innocent, but all underwent special scrutiny at those checkpoints. We were however spared American Style Security Theater. More here: https://www.shanghaibirding.com/xinjiang-intro/

    The refreshing subtext to the checkpoints was that the Chinese are deadly serious about holding their country together. They may be cruel and ruthless, but they aren’t disintegrating, as the West currently is, and unlike the West China doesn’t have a treacherous leadership class that is swamping the electorate with foreigners.

    • Agree: Hail
  100. onebornfree says: • Website

    J.Derbyshire says: “I’m skeptical about direly negative predictions for China’s economy,….. Professional economists are likewise wary of talking about collapse, but they are none the less bearish”

    “Professional economists are likewise wary of talking about collapse”

    That’s because most of them are socialistic, big government worshiping dunderheads, brainwashed [ in government controlled/run colleges and universities via government-run economics courses preaching Marxist, and Keynesian economic twaddle, of course], on the “advantages”and the”need” for government controlled economies with central banks issuing fake money, and all the rest of the anti-free market, establishment economic claptrap that goes along with these so-called “necessary” features of a healthy economy.

    The Chinese “Miracle” Economy Scam:

    The Chinese “miracle”economy is largely an illusion, a fake boom creation of its own central banks continual, massive creation of fake money,[ and, of course, massive amounts of $US loaned via both the government and private interests].

    Because of the immutable, unchangeable fundamental laws of economics and markets, sooner or later the Chinese fake miracle economy is heading for a huge collapse, primarily caused by :

    1] increased[and still increasing] economic centralization now mandated by the idiot megalomaniac Xi, and….

    2] the central banks creation of massive amounts of fake money to falsely “stimulate” economic growth and the so-called “Chinese miracle” .

    “Lipstick On a Pig”:

    [MORE]

    As does “putting lipstick on a pig”, these two grand, idiotic, and economy destroying features “work” for a while [conveniently creating a fake prosperity which fools the masses, and which consequently temporarily ensures that the commie elite holds on to power], and then all of a sudden, surprise, surprise, they don’t. Then, at that point, the immutable, unchangeable laws of economics [ ie “Mr Market”], finally reassert and drastically readjust everything back to the mean average[ but way below, first].

    I believe that the Chinese economic collapse is slowly starting to pick up steam right now, in real time, and will only further accelerate as the commie elite’s inevitable response will be, tah dah!: even more centralization of the Chinese economy, and even more printing of fake money/ fake credit.

    Then, the accelerating Chinese economic collapse will make the Chinese commie elite insider megalomaniacs/control freaks even more desperate to create major distractions for their imploding economy and increasingly impoverished/angry slaves.

    Which means, [if history is any guide] : that that major distraction [for the newly impoverished slaves] will be WAR! [on other states].

    And so it goes…

    Regards, onebornfree

    For some [possible] signs of the impending complete collapse of the Chinese economy, see:

    The Real “Helicopter Money”: Since 2009, China Has Created $21 Trillion Of New Money, More Than Double The US:“….Chinese banks have been on a credit and money creation binge, and have created RMB144Tn ($21Tn) of new money since 2009, more than twice the amount of money supply created in the US, the eurozone and Japan combined over the same period. In total, China’s money supply stands at Rmb192tn, equivalent to $28 TRILLION. Why does this matter? Because Chine money’s supply is the size of broad money supply in the US and the eurozone put together, yet China’s nominal GDP is only two-thirds that of the US….”:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/real-helicopter-money-2009-china-has-created-21-trillion-new-money-more-then-double-us

    China Braces To Unveil 5%-GDP Growth At Two Key Meetings In Coming Weeks:

    Earlier this month, Beijing marked the 70th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China with huge military parades, showing off its hypersonic weapons and weaponized drones. But behind the scene’s China’s economy is quickly decelerating, and fresh evidence last week shows GDP could slip under 6%. China’s GDP, published last Friday, showed 6% growth for 3Q, the weakest quarterly prints since 1992 and down from 6.2% in 2Q.
    https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/china-likely-embark-below-trend-growth-sub-6-2020

    Credit Crisis Unfolds In China As Steelmaker Default Sparks Contagion Fears

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/credit-crisis-unfolds-china-steelmaker-default-sparks-contagion-fears

    Chinese Bank On Verge Of Collapse After Sudden Bank Run
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/chinese-bank-verge-collapse-after-sudden-bank-run

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Lin
  101. Herald says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Now concerning the”big lie” thing, I’m guessing then, that all those obvious mountains of glittering and breathtaking progress mustn’t really be real. Well spotted, it’s good to know there’s no pulling the wool over your eyes.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  102. aela says:

    No doubt China has improved and many Chinese find greater opportunity these days. I began teaching in a small university in Massachusetts this semester. It’s my first time teaching university in America following twelve years teaching at university in Asia. All of my students are Chinese (it’s my first time teaching Chinese students) about 24 to 28 in two classes. The number isn’t steady since a several students have their own schedule to keep and out of those, two are failing because they have too much pride without self-responsibility. This particular university where I work has its own Global Pathways English Program and they do well managing the many students who are taking the short-cut to studying in America after gaining low scores on IELTS or TOEFL exams. On the other hand, many of my students have obviously cheated not only on IELTS and TOEFL exams but on the university creampuff English placement test. With that said, about half of my students aren’t shy about confessing their desire to remain in America and they say most of the students wish to do so. Around the small university many Chinese restaurants, some Chinese markets, and Chinese travel agents have sprung up. This part of the city is becoming a China Town. There are 560 Chinese students and that number is going up every year. I’ve taught at universities and on projects paid for by US taxpayers and major INGO’s. I’ve also spent 18 months as Principal of an international school and of all the different students from a variety of cultures and ethnicity, I like the Chinese least. If it were up to me, I’d make sure every one of the Chinese students returned to China upon graduation. But it’s not up to me and therefore once this semester is done I’m going back to Asia. Of all of the places I’ve taught or managed programs and taught teachers I receive the lowest pay with no job security, no health benefits, and not much courtesy and consideration from management, in America. Lucky for me to have the right credentials, education and experience to get employment worldwide. But, teaching in American universities is mostly part-time and teachers are treated as if they are dime-a-dozen – and they are.

  103. Lin says:
    @onebornfree

    The Chinese “Miracle” Economy Scam

    As expected, your rhetorics are getting so inept; Pls keep up your bornfreak BS, I need entertainment.(I don’t even bother to quote some important per capita figures), haha..

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @onebornfree
  104. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Churches get torn down

    As expected, you repeat the same propaganda.
    Why don’t you quote some cases of churches buildings which didn’t violate construction codes/zoning /registration/public health regulation got torn down ?

  105. David says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I welcome American nationalism, even the dark stuff. It just doesn’t seem dark to me. And I can also accept the “salt in the stew” analogy, that moderate to low immigration can be a national blessing.

    Mr Derbyshire is all over Putnam’s findings that “Immigration and Diversity Foster Social Isolation” but he seems to snigger at those who would vigorously oppose diversification. They are just too unsophisticated for him, I guess. But it feels like he’s always expressing 80% of what he actually believes, suppressing the rest, while simultaneously sucking up to the establishment gatekeepers by parroting some of their pieties, hoping to be let back inside.

  106. What about China’s losers? The country’s wealth is distributed very unequally. There are a great many poor people living hard lives. ”

    I visited China many times over the past two years and stayed about two to three months each time. I visited several cities., talked to many people from the bottom of the society — janitors, maids, food delivery guys, tourist guide, and etc., all migrant workers from poor rural countryside.

    Here are some of the stories I’ve heard:

    1, The woman who takes care do my aging mother in Beijing told me that her son and daughter both graduated from college now, both work in finance company in Beijing and making good money. Her husband also works in Beijing. They were peasants from a village in northern China. They own a two-story house in their home village. She is very satisfied with her life. She also told me that in her village, only very lazy persons stay being poor, usually are unmarried men, and government took care of them. One such lazy guy lived off his aging parents. After his parents died, he didn’t even have money to fix the house. The house eventually clasped. The government gave him 60,000 yuan (free money, not loans) to build a new one.

    I talked to about five to six maids like her who work in Beijing, all of them have similar stories. Most of them not only own their houses in their village, but also bought an apartment in the cities or towns near their villages.

    2, A janitor worked at my apartment building told me that when he went back to visit his hometown in Gansu, one of the least developed and the poorest province in China, he couldn’t recognize it after eight years without coming home. He also bought an apartment in a city.

    3, I once shopped at a place similar to the farmer’s market in the US. I chatted with the guy who sold me some stuff. I asked him if the life in his home village is okay and if there are still many poor people there. Before he answered me, several bystanders told me that there’s no real poor people anymore nowadays, anyone willing to work can have reasonable good life…

    4, I talked to a businessman on a train when I was traveling in China. The guy was a billionaire now and he is from one of the the poorest village in Hubei providence. He ran away from his village about 40 years ago when he was a teenager to a coastal city, because he couldn’t get enough to eat at home. After he found job in that and earned the money, many guys in his village followed his suit to the cities , quite a few of them become rich now. Them formed a committee in their village, donate money every year to build and to support school and senior center, to support promising young kids to go to college, to help the poor, and etc.. He told me that he had visited the U.S. and Canada, he didn’t think the western democratic system fits China, especially won’t fit folks from his village. He also told me that corruption improved a lot under president Xi. He used to be able to bribe the tax collectors easily and pay less tax, now he couldn’t. It costs him more to do business now, but he still likes this way. Traditionally, triads were active in his area, after Mao took the power, the communists cleaned up all of them. Since Deng’s reform, many of the old bad things came back, triad is one of them. The guy told me that the police in his area were corrupted and worked with the triads (we have a phrase for that in Chinese:”the police and bandits in the same family”. Xi’s anti-corruption action also targeted police force and triads, so the life for people in his home area improved a lot in this sense too.

    5, I talked to a PhD student sitting next to me on one of my flight to Beijing. He came to the U.S. to attend a conference. He was about 26 years old, also from rural China, both parents were peasants. He told me that nowadays in China, anymore willing to work hard, he/she will be able to make a good living (many young people told me this in China). He also told me that he doesn’t believe in western democracy. He said that if democracy cannot improve people’s life, why do we need it?

    What impressed me the most is that rural peasants can get health insurance coverage now. They just need to pay about 200 yuan (roughly $30) a year to get government basic health insurance coverage. The insurance will cover 50% (I’ve heard it’s increased to 60% recently) of the medical cost. If a patient’s illness cannot be treated by the local hospital, the local hospital will refer the patient to a better one at big cities, the insurance will cover that too.

    Not long ago, China was a country with 80% of it’s population being uneducated and dirt poor peasants. A couple of years ago, I heard from NPR that black slaves in the U.S. 200 years ago could have fish and meat in their weekly food rations, I was totally shocked, they ate much better than I do when I was a kid 40 +years ago. My family was relatively well off in China, my parents belonged to the elite class and lived in Beijing, the wealthiest city in China. We couldn’t have enough meat in our daily diet before 1980, not to mention fish or poultry. The first time I ate chicken leg in my life was after I came to the U.S. , because chicken leg was considered the best part of the chicken. The few times when we had chicken, the legs had to give to the elders in the family.

    Although I had always been optimistic about China and considered the Gordon Chang as a joke, seeing the improvement of rural peasants’ life still shocked me. The changes beyond my wildest imagination. I talked to over 20 people with direct family connection to rural countryside in relatively poor area, either they are peasants or their parents are peasants. Among these people, 100% of them built new home in their village within last 10 years and own it 100%. Over half of them bought an apartment in nearby towns or cities either for themselves or their children. A large percentage of young people in rural areas own cars now. Not to mention medically insurance and retirement money for the peasants.

    With such extraordinary economic success and improvements of life, it should not be surprising that majority of middle and lower class Chinese people very satisfied with government, especially supportive of Xi’s anti-corruption and targeting the poverty policies. Before Xi, the corruption was rampant, no body had imagined things could be changed in just a few years. Even so, I was still surprised by the satisfaction and approval rate of Xi and Chinese government among people in middle and lower social economic classes.

    The dissatisfaction for Xi or government is mainly among people in upper or upper-middle social economic classes. especially those who care about politics. Some of them were hurt by Xi’s crackdown on corruption, some of them hated his tightening up on anti-government speech and getting rid of term limit in constitution, some of them just don’t like the whole Chinese political system and hated everything that Chinese government does. I guess most western journalists and scholars in China probably mainly socialize with these people, in addition to their western way of thinking and bias, it is not surprisingly that they always read China wrong and made wrong predictions.

    The pro-western democracy voice in China are relatively quiet these days, not only because Xi’s government’s crackdown on speech, but also because social media makes people more easily to get information about the West, more young people study abroad and more ordinary Chinese visited Europe and the America as tourists. The more people know about the West, the less they attracted to western democracy system, although this doesn’t mean that Chinese people satisfied with our own political system. Trump’s trade war with China and attacking on Hua Wei also a big hit to those pro-west and pro-democracy people. The U.S. really lost the high moral ground.

    Before the trade war, most Chinese had very favorable views of the U.S. , many of them love the U.S. to the extent that I think they were too naive. I once told a friend that China’s economic size and advancement in technology will make the U.S. feel it’s global hegemony and dominance of the power threatened, the U.S. will try to contain China, the two countries will have many conflicts and the relationship will be in a vey bumpy road in next 10 to 15 years. The friend, who is from my college and is kind of active in pro-western democracy circle, couldn’t understand and won’t believe me. He said that the U.S, had always been good to China, never tried to get territory or colonies from China like other imperial powers, why do they want to contain us or hurt us now. He thought that if there is anything wrong in the relationship of the two countries, it must be China’s fault, if we change our political system to western democracy, the two countries will live happily ever after. He is not alone. In my college alumni WeChat groups, many people held similar views and were very active. The trade war and the ban on Hua Wei were slap on their face. Many of them become quite or not as confident and self righteous when they say anything pro-US, and often being slapped by others with thing’s that Trump or US officials said if they dare to say something that overtly pro-US. My college is the most prestigious university in China. A lot of people in my WeChat groups are more or less in power in China, specially because we were the early batches of college graduates after the Cultural Revolution. Their thinking probably more or less represents the power elites and culture elites in China.

    So, what China will be like in next 20-30 years?

    I believe China’s technology will be on par with the U.S. and China won’t need to rely on the West for advanced technology in about 10 to 15 years. Trump’s banning of Hua Wei probably will make this happen sooner and is his biggest mistake. China had been copy and imitate the western technology in the past. Now China has money, talents and the biggest consumer market in the world, the culture of valuing creativeness and entrepreneurship also has formed. Chinese companies now started creating for China. I believe in 20 years, they will start to create for the world. Chinese GDP will surpass the U.S. in about 10 to 15 years too. I think that people’s living standards in China is not much lower than in the U.S., but somehow, the GDP just about 60% to the U.S. which doesn’t seems right. China is so rich now that large percentage of my high school and college schoolmates who stayed in China are richer than those of us who came to the West after college graduation. They drove luxury cars, sent their kids to the the university in the West paying full tuitions, they own multiple apartments in China (China’s real estate market boomed since 2003, which makes millions of people get rich), and they are not corrupted officials or businessmen.

    China will continue to lag behind the West in humanity area for considerable time, at least for another 50 to hundred years. So China will continue to import culture and thoughts from the West.

    China won’t be able to lead the world for the foreseeable future even China’s economic power and technology can dominate the world soon. The reason for this is:

    1, China’s civilization and culture didn’t change much for two thousands years until hundred years ago, and lagged behind the West for at 600 years in my view. China started modernization 100 years ago. The 600 years differences isn’t that easy to catch up.

    2, The majority of Chinese culture elites are still very naive, they lack the knowledge, experience, understanding of the world and don’t have the right ways of thinking.

    3. Chinese culture made people good at self suppressing, surviving the hardship and enduring the adversities in life. The traditional Chinese society reached harmony by forcing people to surpass their feelings, desires, emotions and thoughts. So our culture’s wisdom largely concentrates on suppressing ourselves and avoiding the conflicts. Today’s China is still like that. I think this is not only true for china, but even more so for Japan and Korea. Mao and the Communists changed people and culture a lot, liberated people spiritually, that’s why I think mainland Chinese in the U.S. are more aggressive, dare to express ourselves and to pursuit what we want compare to people from other part of East Asia like Japan and Korea. Because of this, Chinese people are not as aggressive compared to people from Islam or Western culture. We are not good at and not willing to confront people, not good at dealing with conflicts. The carrot and stick approach? We don’t know how to use stick, so only can use carrot to get what we want. If anyone pay attention to East Asia immigrants’ behavior in the West, you will clearly see this culture characteristic.

    On the other hand, in western society (or American society), everyone is aggressive, people have to pursuit what they want to get what they want, have to protect their interests aggressively to not be stepped on. Being aggressive is accepted and even admired sometimes. This resulted western societies reached harmony by confronting the problems or people, respecting individual rights, establishing all sorts of rule, and people resolving the conflicts by following the rules. The western society and culture cumulated a lot of wisdom and experience in confronting the challenges and solving the conflicts.

    The culture of a country not only determines the behaviors the people but also the government. If we look at the past 2000 years Europeans history, especially past 500 hundreds years since Columbus discovered the America, this this aggressiveness culture characteristics reflected on everything and every major event. On the other hand, the self suppression is reflected throughout 2000 years Chinese history, the best symbol of this is the Great Wall.

    In a world full of aggressive people and all sorts of conflicts, how can people or government to lead if they are from the culture that only has the wisdoms and the experiences of self-suppressing and giving out the carrot without knowing how to used the stick?

    The good news is in the coming conflicts between the U.S. and China in the next 10 to 15 years, the U.S. government will teach and train Chinese people how to use a stick. and to be aggressive, just like Trump’s administration did. The U.S. is in a dilemma, it cannot ignore the rise of China and not prepare itself for the possible worst situation; it also cannot be overtly hostile, because it will unnecessarily make itself a formidable enemy. I think both sides need to take a good look at self and make an effort to understand the other side culturally. The U.S. has big advantage in this area.

  107. @unit472

    We have power lines running straight through trees all over the place. Yet, they do not set the trees on fire. If it’s actually the power company, what the hell is actually starting these fires? Transformers? I’ve never seen a transformer in a tree and if one of those blows I guess it could possibly start something, though usually it just leaks boiling oil all over. And they don’t pop that often.

    The transmission lines should not be arcing or sparking at all or something else has gone terribly wrong.

    Granted, I am in a place close to being a cold temperate rain forest and things stay pretty wet mostly. But the wind gets plenty high. Are they having these problems anywhere else in the country?

    We know the CA environment is prone to natural wild fires, I’m tempted to think the power company is just being scapegoated here.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  108. @Bardon Kaldian

    Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.

    China is reportedly sending men to sleep in the same beds as Uighur Muslim women.

    The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted US President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by “communist aggression”. The resolution served as Johnson’s legal justification for deploying U.S. conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against Vietnam.

  109. SafeNow says:

    Here in unraveled California, I welcome our Chinese immigrants, for they somewhat offset the unraveling. They are generally decent, industrious, conscientious, proficient, and smart. Also phlegmatic and self-segregating, but I don’t care much about that. Harvard eschews these traits, but I welcome them. I have posted this before, but now do so again.

  110. “I might even—who knows?—occasionally find myself in conversation with a person who knows the meaning of the word ‘average’.”

    Well, not to put too fine a point on it but, what is meant by “average?” Mean, median or mode?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  111. While I have no doubt there is corruption in China. The issue is, what happens when the government moves against it?
    In the West, we know it’s at best, a slap on the wrist. Sometimes corporate malfeasance results in big fines. When lead was discovered in the paint of Marx Toys, the response in China was to try and execute the corporate officials responsible. The US owners would have you believe (successfully apparently) that they had know knowledge that there was lead in the paint. I guess they don’t have a QC department. In the melamine in milk/formula scandal, the head of the company in China offed himself before the government arrested him. Again, apparently nobody in the US was testing the product for QC.
    No political system is perfect. The brainwashing in Western liberal democracies (perhaps more appropriately (((Western liberal democracies))) ) is no less than what is is in Communist countries, just different. The fact that 99% of Americans think socialism is communism and vice versa is a testament to that. The fact that CH Douglas, the “inventor” of social credit economics understood the difference over a hundred years ago, and that so few Americans know what social credit is, demonstrates the level of brainwashing by the banker/Wall Street elite.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  112. @ChineseMom

    Thank you for such a splendid and well thought out comment. We desperately need more commentators like you !!!

  113. homahr says:

    If hur-Derb did his research, he would find that the Pakistan gov is paying Instagram influencers to go to Pakistan and post on social media to promote tourism. Something which Israel does also, ie Demi Lovato. Those tourists are probably well protected by the Pakistani security services.

    • Replies: @Alden
  114. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Lin

    Lin says:“As expected, your rhetorics are getting so inept; Pls keep up your bornfreak BS, I need entertainment.(I don’t even bother to quote some important per capita figures), haha..”

    “Pride comes before a fall” [an old proverb- it might even be Chinese-I don’t know] 🙂 .

    Yourself, and others like you, have two choices:

    1] Continue going through life with your smug, smiling little head jammed up your own ass , or….

    2] Start reading some history, for example the economic history of the USSR, or that of other, similar, totalitarian regimes.

    “Regards” onebornfree

    • Replies: @Lin
  115. @Curmudgeon

    China is pretty clean now, but the lack of corruption ironically frustrates many who complain about the extreme slowness of things when triple-checking is used for everything. The solution to corruption is a low-trust society is obscene amounts of oversight, at least for now.

  116. d dan says:
    @ChineseMom

    “China will continue to lag behind the West in humanity area for considerable time, at least for another 50 to hundred years. So China will continue to import culture and thoughts from the West. “

    Can’t agree with you here. I think China already stops importing western ideology, political thoughts, economic theory, social concepts (“diversity”, “gay rights”, …), etc. Their humanity ideas not being accepted by the west, does not mean they are lagging “behind the West”.

    However, if you are talking about Chinese people playing Beethoven on piano and lack of white people playing “Moon’s Reflection on the Second Spring” on erhu, that is actually a strength of Chinese culture and society today, reflecting the openness and confidence of the people relative to the westerners.

    “Chinese culture made people good at self suppressing”

    I would call that self-discipline, sacrifice or delayed gratification, etc.

    The rest of your comment are very good.

    • Agree: Vidi
    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  117. AaronB says:
    @ChineseMom

    Interesting comment, but I think China has already learned to be aggressive in the Western manner, and is today as aggressive as America or rapidly catching up.

    That’s why I’m not so optimistic about China in the short term. Today’s China seems to be drawing on its worst tradition, legalism. These are the people who burned books and wanted to educate the people mostly in the military arts and focus on practical efficiency.

    That regime didn’t last long, because it makes people unhappy. And having been to China recently, beneath the economic optimism I see a deep well of unhappiness and frustration, and a copying of the worst aspects of the West.

    Chinese people did not seem at all happy to me – it was a relief to get back to happy California – although they did seem energized in an economic sense. That shouldn’t be confused with happiness.

    Anyways the Chinese will indeed achieve prosperity I agree with you there – and discover, just as the West did, that that kind of life is empty 🙂

    That’s when the social problems start, like in the West. The West too was optimistic and energized as long as it had the dream of prosperity at the end of the road – when it got it, it fell apart.

    Maybe China had to go through this for itself, but China is rather boring because it isn’t really doing anything new. Its not doing anything the West hasn’t. Its not offering a new way of life and new values and ideas.

    The West was so fascinated by China and the East in general for so long because it was doing something really different, it offered different values and ideas about how to live and what’s proper for humans. So for hundreds of years Westerners found China really interesting. Now it’s boring. Only really wild eyed crazies like Godfree Roberts can find in the banalities of capitalism and getting wealthy some kind of message for the world.

    Anyways, I think China will probably become interesting again in the future, hopefully – but I actually think the West will become more interesting sooner. Its got rich and wealthy – it had what China is still seeking – and it is now moving onto something else.

    I wish China all the luck in the world, but I don’t think I’ll be paying too much attention to it in the near future. I know all about getting rich and powerful already from the West. Maybe in a few decades or a century China will become interesting and cool again and attract attention from interesting people in the West.

    But for now, bye bye, and good luck.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @BlackFlag
  118. @Rahan

    And the US and Britain and Canada all need a very, very good cleaning

    Amazing what the Jewish Lobby has done in those 3 countries!!

    I live in Canada and the average Canadian knowledge on global affairs, and our government foreign policy actually encourages division and bigotry in the national conversation about ourselves.

  119. @anon

    If you’re not a CNN employee I feel bad for you. Talk about brainwashed, what you’re doing is merely projection. The “oppressed Tibetan and Uyghur minorities” can’t hold a handle to the oppressed natives in the states. They are merely western stooges in order to cry faul at the Chinese in the same manner as Kurds are useful idiots. Either way China never did any conquering even at the prior historic peak of it’s power. It actually historically pursued the course of closing itself off. I doubt that it would be a worse hegemon than the US is at any rate. Look at it this way, why the US is primarily using it’s muscle to do proxy wars China is on the other hand using it’s influence for capital infrastructure investments worldwide.
    “All I know is Japan has a much better reputation globally than China.”
    I don’t agree, Japan is yesterdays news and the true global achievers are China and the US.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  120. @AaronB

    it was a relief to get back to happy California

    Blackouts and public defecation are key ingredients to happiness.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  121. Anon[200] • Disclaimer says:

    Pakistan. It’s not exactly on every solo female traveler’s bucket list. But that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be. Especially if you ask vlogger and content creator Eva zu Beck, who thinks Pakistan could be the world’s No. 1 tourism destination.

    I’m sure all the Pakistani men are awaiting the arrival of the white female horde with glee, esp. the Pashtun men. There’s really no other group of females dumber and more naive than white females. They need gender equality extends to all countries and all cultures. The best thing is they are also attractive and have no qualms about sleeping with any tall dark man who gives them any kind of attention, which makes for the best kind of targets.

  122. @Gorgeous George

    Either way China never did any conquering even at the prior historic peak of it’s power. It actually historically pursued the course of closing itself off.

    China engaged in significant expansion historically: Tang dynasty expansion, Han-Xiongnu War, Ming–Hồ War, Ten Great Campaigns(though arguably more Manchu in inspiration), etc. All in all, its fair to say that China has been fairly nonaggressive relative to other historic powers but it is not entirely nonaggressive.

    Most Chinese annexations do seem to initially due to request for aid from one side of a civil war, but I think that’s actually a norm even for Anglo invasions.

    • Replies: @Alden
  123. Anon[200] • Disclaimer says:

    Nine out of ten college students from China return to China upon graduation? Yeah, right. Go check out the campuses of Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook…Mandarin is heard everywhere you turn. Bellevue, WA is literally a suburb of Beijing. 17% of undergrads at University of Washington are foreign, at least half (~700) from China alone. I would love for you to be right though. Nothing would please me more than to see them all leave. No one wants a Chinese neighbor.

    Purge all the East/Southeast Asians, plus all the South Asian con artists, Mexican criminals, Jewish globohomos, African thugs, medieval Muslim cave dwellers, LGBTQ degenerates, white progressivetards, neocons and RINOs and America will finally realize its true potential as greatest country on earth.

    That’s the real American dream.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Richard P
  124. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  125. @Herald

    How’d you get that from my comments? I was discussing Robert’s writing on Chinese HISTORY, though he does ridiculously parrot some Chinese Gov’t BS about the current day too. Did you read the rest of my comments? You can (as of today) read 66 Peak Stupidity posts on China. Some are favorable and some not. It’s just that we don’t spread stupid lies about Communism. That’s not healthy for anyone.

  126. Alden says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Taiping Rebellion was one of hundreds of Chinese civil wars over the centuries. Crazy Christian communist leveler Hong Xiuquan was just one of the many leaders of many factions involved. He failed the entrance level civil service exams. Similar to Mark Fett aka deep throat who revenged himself on Nixon after failure to be appointed head of the FBI by Pres Nixon

    The Taiping rebellion was very similar to America’s Civil War. Breakaway southern provinces against the national government headquartered in the north. A severely retarded Emperor didn’t help. The 2 Empresses and the national government did the best they could in just another one of China’s civil wars and warlord rule eras. And like America’s civil
    war, European powers lurked about looking for advantages.

    It really didn’t end till the 1860s due to a weak national government unable to deal with the powerful warlords and de facto autonomous areas. 2 retarded Emperors father and son in a row, what can one expect?

  127. Lin says:
    @onebornfree

    “Pride comes before a fall”

    .
    Pride? what pride? Whose pride ? I don’t bullshit and I’m overall a careful poster

    Start reading some history, for example the economic history of the USSR, or that of other, similar, totalitarian regimes.

    You’re more ignorant than I expect. We all know PRC economic history is different from that of USSR.
    Yes, keep it on..I’m not done with watching your bornfreak show

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  128. Alden says:
    @iffen

    It’s very complicated. But basically, power company basic maintenance is against the environment and Mother Giai. The crazy environmentalist sissy city boys filed lawsuits and the judges ordered the power companies to divert money and workers from basic maintenance to visionary projects.

    Meanwhile the dead brush full of highly flammable creosote piles up due to sissy city boy and girl judges forbidding the removal of dead brush and trees.

    Why these insanely stupid and dangerous rulings? Because one million years ago there were no humans in America to clear away and use dead brush , fallen branches and trees.

  129. @dfordoom

    Same as the Bernays campaign to put girls on bicycles – to wander hither and fro, but most definitely away from boyfriends and husbands.

    • Replies: @Alden
  130. bluedog says:
    @Anon 2

    Strange how every country and its leadership is corrupt,well except for us of course, and the endless propaganda about every other country while their own is going down the crapper in all aspects,perhaps its misery love company or the 24/7 propaganda, but perhaps the peoples time would be better spent worrying about the evils of their own country.!!!

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  131. bluedog says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Give it up kid for your way out of your class and only making a fool of yourself, or pay scale which ever it may be.!!!

  132. Alden says:
    @homahr

    Thanks for the information. The only tourism in Pakistan I’ve ever heard of is a world famous Polo Tournament. The horses have to be shipped in several weeks in advance to get acclimated to less oxygen in the mountain air.

    In deference to European, N&S American and Indian players, they use balls, not severed heads of enemies in the matches. It’s really a big deal for Polo.

    • Replies: @homahr
  133. Alden says:
    @Where-Wolf

    The Bernay’s campaign was for cigarettes and about 40 years after bikes came into widespread use.

    Another sad old misogynist women hating virgin bachelor heard from. Most men would be embarrassed to display the lack of women in their lives so blatantly

    Why do I bother reading this site of repressed gay women haters?

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  134. Alden says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Much of Chinese expansion north and west was simple forward defense against the endless banditry by non Han nomads. That’s why Beijing is located where it is.

    Expansion to the south was often by Chinese wanting to get away from the repressive governments that demanded payment of taxes observance of laws, and stability.

  135. Kiel says:
    @Justvisiting

    Expect the body count of murdered traveling white females in the third world go up in the next few years.

    Eh, it’s Darwinism at its best, might as well encourage them.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
  136. Seraphim says:
    @Lin

    As far as I could notice from a high-speed train, all the churches I’ve seen were new buildings of quite sizeable dimensions, in clearly newly developed zones, among new ‘condominiums’.

  137. @Achmed E. Newman

    I wonder what Confucius would have to say about this, what with the emphasis on harmony and all.

    Two stories about that:

    a) Supposedly Confucius intended to inspire a nation of gentlemen, but instead inspired a nation of gamesmen.

    b) The chopstick was supposedly a Confucian innovation intended to remove knives from the table, as the knives symbolized violence. [1] Supposedly there are two Chinese schools of martial arts that teach use of chopsticks as weapons.

    Such is the fate of human plans and hopes.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-history-of-chopsticks-64935342/

    2] https://martial-arts.wonderhowto.com/how-to/use-chopsticks-as-weapon-75676/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WoQ5Pl24_k

  138. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As a counter, I’ve argued with Mr. Roberts* before on unz, and it’s especially his knowledge of 20th century Chinese history that is contrary to all historical sources.

    Still no citation of any facts, I see. Just a lot of blather — and calling other people liars. Methinks you protest too much.

  139. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Lin

    Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid, Chinaboy!

    “Regards” onebornfree

    • Replies: @Lin
  140. klcTan says:

    Derbyshire sees fit to mention Serpentza. Serpentza was a failure in China, and sensing a huge western market for negative videos on China, he proceeded to sell his soul to the devil to make money by producing negative videos generalising his negative perceptions to the entire population of 1.4 billion.

    Some of his talking points are ”

    ” There is a Huge Moral Crisis in China”, “Scammers are Everywhere in China !” , China lacks Good Samaritans”, “Chinese women heartless” .

    Here is Nathan Rich’s views on Serpentza : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRqcA04FtmM

    And Bob Menendez’s views which I quote freely: ”

    But recent vids are deviously deceitful and wicked, even children and youth are not spared, that is my last straw for them. Peculiar they were teachers before, and having kids themself. Love China? Hmm… Ive never seen people that smart (except cult leader) twisting words and manipulating minds, led into believing they have good intentions, saying patronising words, in between every distasteful stuff said. Things like Chinese have no morals, scamming is a part of their culture, scum nation, can even sell their own mother if u’re willing to pay? Kidnapping children and forced prostitutions are common?? Youth are reviving nationalism, they’re dangerous and hate the foreigners? The children are taught by CCP to learn how to hate, eventually will grow up to betray, sellout their parents and teachers ?

    Which era did these few come from ?? Travelling thru time machine from the 50s 60s ?

    I’ve stayed in China for many years and I would say 99% Chinese walking on the streets (the rest 1 % are like 1300000, can u imagine how huge the population, and does it make sense to generalise to the whole public?) are warm, kind, helpful, honest folks. A lot of things these two say just don’t make sense to me. It only sound convincing to dumb fools online.

    Then they go on talking about China deep rooted hate for Japan. Trying to get Japs subscribers to hate.(Japs and Chinese were like wtf we’re chilling out together now, should we kill each other after we enjoyed our beer session?)

    Serpentza also used the same rhetoric on South African Black, trashed them online for ten years while in China. Angry South African had to put up an entire website to fight back. One of his South African white friends said he’d never seen a person hate the black as much as he did and this is what put off their friendship. And Serpentza often portrayed his town where he lived, as a horrible war-torn shithole, which his white friend clarified it’s not true, more of a peaceful quiet out of no where smallholding settlement.

    As a foreigner I believed Chinese have every right to be patriotic, same for us if someone did that to our country.

    What extreme and despicable personality they have, I think one day they’ll go down as being the most nocturnal human creature in modern history. Terrible way to make money if you ask me, worst kind of scamming. “

    • Agree: d dan
  141. Richard P says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    K2 is supposed to be more difficult and far more lethal than Everest. I suppose one could access it from the China side

    K2 is indeed more difficult and far more lethal then Everest. The death rate is 25% on K2 — which is nearly five times greater than the date rate of 5% on Everest. Furthermore, there’s been many more attempted ascents on Everest as compared to K2.

    It’s more difficult and hazardous to reach the summit of K2 from the Chinese side.

  142. Richard P says:
    @Joe Stalin

    Just imagine how this video must make the blood boil in American Negroids who are in driven into an envious rage over Whitey’s accomplishments…

    And sportsball doesn’t count as it contributes nothing positive to the greater good of society.

  143. @Anon

    ‘Nine out of ten college students from China return to China upon graduation? Yeah, right. Go check out the campuses of Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook…Mandarin is heard everywhere you turn…’

    You’re just failing to realize just how many Chinese there are. Nine out of ten can go home, and there’ll still be plenty to swamp our tech companies.

  144. denk says:

    . The 39 Vietnamese who perished in a refrigerated truck

    When news broke on the dead immigrants, before the identities were even ascertained, the CNN lost no time in smearing China.

    CCN bitch to Chinese FM

    ‘China just celebrated its 70 years anniversary, what with all those glorious achievements like ‘lifting 800M people outta poverty blah bah blah, so how do you explain Chinese people are still trying to sneak into western countries by such dangerous way ???’

    Exploiting a tragedy to make China look bad , but what do you expect from CNN ?
    For reasons best known to themselves, The [[[five liars]]] are the most vicious Chinese haters out there.

    Chinese snake heads*

    private gangs snake heads are nothing burger compared to state orchestrated Weapons Of Mass Migration,swarming the host countries with hundreds of thousands, even millions of
    refugees , in order to destabilise, even bring down its hosts.

    Exhibit a
    [[[five liars ]]] engineered WMM to destabilise, undermine the EUROS, especially Germany..

    How did the poor refugees come up with the exorbitant fees charged by the snake heads ?

    Who paid for their smart phones, used to access the apps that guide them along the best routes into Germany and Austria, their primary destinations of choice.

    Greece, Italy and Eastern European countries, which are migrants’ main entry point, have all developed extensive wifi networks, with the help of George Soros-funded Central European University and Cisco Systems

    a bizarre Twitter storm launched in 2015 by netbots located in the US, UK and Australia. The latter lavishly promoted Germany and Austria as the most migrant friendly countries.

    The Usual Suspects, [[[five liars]]], targeting their own ‘allies’ with Weapon of Mass Migration.

    https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/09/weapons-of-mass-migration

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  145. denk says:

    IN THE [[[five liars]]] smear campaign on China, they like to point to the ‘Tibetan refugees running away from their ‘hellhole’ in China !

    In reality, thats another fukus engineered WMM to discredit China.

    *The refugees, with the support of some Western countries, have been carrying out free-Tibet activities in Nepal*

    No prize guessing, who’r those ‘western countries’

    *Gaden Khangsar is involved in trafficking Tibetans to Nepal and sending them to foreign countries

    Nepalese soil has been utilizes by the Tibetans to traffic innocent Tibetans from Tibet to India and also Western countries. Officials assigned by the Dalai Lama stationed in Kathmandu are trafficking the Tibetans to Nepal by promising them that they will send them to the United States and European countries. They have also be promised that they will earn huge amounts of money*

    Luring Tibetan peasants to INdia and the ‘west’, promising them a pot of gold., then parade them to the world as proof of CCP persecution.

    Remember those Tibetans protestors who assaulted a disabled Chinese athlete during the 2008 Olympic torch procession ?

    *Some western countries have supported this project with the intention of defaming China on human rights violation.*

    The UsualSuspects. = [[[five liars]]]

    *When the US senators visited Nepal, the Tibetan refugee leaders held a meeting with them in Kathmandu. At that time, as the Tibetan refugee leaders had complained about the closure of Dalai Lama’s office, the US senators had suggested that they should run a federation by including other Buddhist organizations. The US senators had also held a meeting with Sittal Niwas officials and out pressure on the Nepalese to provide travel documents to the refugees and allow them to run the Dalai Lama’s office. At that time, the government formed under the Article 127 didn’t agree to the US senators’ advice to run Dalai Lama’s office here*

    US senators care so much about Tibetan welfare [sic], coming all the way to Nepal , arm twisting, er, advising Nepalese officials to allow illegit immigrants to run DL’s anti Chinese activities.

    heheheh

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080428083155/http://www.peoplesreview.com.np/2006/141206/detail/n2.html

  146. BlackFlag says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Big fan of Derb but nothing has been so risible as his continuous bashing of the “chicoms” while he documents the collapse of his cherished Western Liberal Civilization and the Chinese ascendancy.

  147. BlackFlag says:
    @AaronB

    “but I actually think the West will become more interesting sooner. Its got rich and wealthy – it had what China is still seeking – and it is now moving onto something else.”

    Senescence, death, extinction.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  148. Richard P says:
    @Anon

    Chinese students have been returning in droves to China. The reasons include better employment options in China, more favorable domestic policies, and less degeneracy. I read an article last year about the “boomerang effect” and how many of Chinese students expressed significant detest with the rampant drug use, homelessness, and crime in America. Unfortunately, I can’t find that article at the moment and believe that it was originally published in the WSJ earlier last year.

    Chinese students increasingly return home after studying abroad

    At the beginning of the century, only one in 10 Chinese students returned to China after studying abroad. In 2017, it was eight in 10.

    Why the shift? Historically, studying abroad was a path to upward mobility for Chinese students: By staying abroad after graduation, they could earn far more than their peers at home. But that has changed over time. The strength in China’s job market, as well as its favorable domestic policies toward returnees, has incentivized a growing number of returns. Tighter immigration policies in western countries are likely to only exacerbate the trend.

    https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/

    China’s ‘Best And Brightest’ Leaving U.S. Universities And Returning Home

    Some 82.23% of students who studied abroad returned to China last year, up from 72.38% in 2012, according to government figures.

    Most of the move home is due to the difficulty of finding work abroad, and a better market for private sector jobs in China, according to a number of students.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/04/17/chinas-best-and-brightest-leaving-u-s-universities-and-returning-home/#5b39f1791d41

    China Economy Draws More Students Back From Abroad

    In recent years, Chinese students have increasingly opted out of the education system at home and gone abroad. Now, as China is eager to point out, a greater share of them are also coming back.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-economy-draws-more-students-back-from-abroad-1488364203

  149. @Alden

    Why do I bother reading this site of repressed gay women haters?

    Because trolling men who do not respond in kind, having been brought up in a misplaced respect for elderly women, brings solace at times when even your cats find you unappealing.

    Factually, you are of course not entirely wrong, Bernay’s contribution to the breakdown of mores was female smoking, not female bicycle riding.

  150. @Lars Porsena

    But the wind gets plenty high. Are they having these problems anywhere else in the country?

    We know the CA environment is prone to natural wild fires, I’m tempted to think the power company is just being scapegoated here.

    Apparently there are several mechanisms [1]. I’d expect all of them to produce more fires if capital equipment is not maintained, and in that sense the power company is indeed being scapegoated.

    I remember a few years back when there were power failure in one of the Eastern cities, Baltimore perhaps, and the locals became quite upset. The power company pointed out that if you reduce the charges for power, you’re going to get a dilapidated capital stock and the cheap power will be unreliable. The city and media weren’t much impressed by this argument, as I recall.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://wildfiremitigation.tees.tamus.edu/faqs/how-power-lines-cause-wildfires

  151. Derb has officially become shit for promoting China uncensored.

    When you promote shit, you become shit.

    🏁 No longer worth reading.

  152. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @Richard P

    Here’s a guess. Maybe he said karakalpaqstan. That’s the ‘autonomous’ region on the Western side of Uzbekistan that is home to karakalpaq people who speak a language closer to Kazakh than Uzbek. The capital is nukus, an impressively bland city notable only for the Savetski museum.

    To get there, he would have to have driven through Mangistau province in Kazakhstan to Beyneu, a small market town, and then turned left and continued a couple of hours to the border. The distances are not that far, but the roads are frequently awful and the border crossing itself often has a multi day queue.

    And yes, it’s a desert area with lots of wild horses so his story is very plausible.

  153. @Lin

    No, I don’t have propaganda, and speaking of propaganda, many of “the stats” from governments of all sorts* are propaganda. What I have is stories from both Chinese people in America and Chinese people in China.

    On the churches again, but also related to Mr. Derbyshire’s statement that more Chinese people are returning home: I agree, but it’s no deluge of Chinamen “getting the hell out”.

    There’s a Chinese preacher that was hired to preach at a local Chinese church (a few local Chinese people, but also a bunch of college students go there). This is the boring guy I was speaking of (that’s 2nd-hand info., as personally I’d have no way to tell!). The guy he replaced was sent home, as his work visa was not renewed. This new guy may have a green card but may be on a work visa.

    My question: What in the hell is so urgent about America having more Chinese preachers?! Is it that there aren’t enough Chinese people already here that can preach the Gospel? You don’t need a degree of any sort – you’ve just got to be a believer, a charismatic speaker, and good with people. Well, come to think of it, like a politician except not full of shit. Work Visas for Chinese Christian preachers – yeah, that’ the mark of a Silly Country!

    To segue into the other issue, no, these people do not want to go back to China. Is it because being a Christian there can get you in trouble?** That’s partially the case. However, just like the post-Docs who hang on, hang on, switch to a work visa, try for the green card, etc …, there are still loads of intelligent Chinese people here who do not seem to want to go home. At the universities, if the Chinese schools are that much better (and I don’t deny that), why do these people stay? Are they all industrial spies? Nah, I doubt they ALL are – maybe a couple of %.

    .

    * In America’s case, I especially thing the BLS numbers on inflation and unemployment are bogus.

    ** That aside, the one couple will not be able to get their American-born kids into regular school in China.

    • Replies: @Lin
  154. @Anonymous

    I haven’t followed this whole exchange (on the way that guy got to Pakistan or what-have-you), but I LUV LUV LUV some geography. Nice job trying to figure this out. I’ll have to look on the globe later and check out what your route looks like.

  155. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @ChineseMom

    Question is will China import a problem which will only metastasize and eventually destroy cities and create trillions of dollars of expenses each year and cause violence and unrest wherever it exists even in small numbers?

    The easiest way for the West to destroy China permanently, a 7000-year old civilization, is to get it to import Africans.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  156. buckwheat says:

    America is already circling the drain and yet the liberal shit is overflowing. We need a civil war to cleanse our soul before its too late.

  157. Anon[533] • Disclaimer says:

    Oh Canada… 🇨🇦

    [MORE]

    https://nationalpost.com/news/canadian-veterans-of-peoples-liberation-army-form-association-sing-of-chinas-martial-glory

    Canadian veterans of People’s Liberation Army form association, sing of China’s martial glory

    Members of the Canada Chinese Veteran’s Society like to gather and pay homage to the forces that crushed the Tiananmen Square protests

    TOM BLACKWELL Updated: October 30, 2019

    Dressed in the uniform of China’s People’s Liberation Army, the 40 or so singers stood proudly in neat rows and belted out an old favourite.

    I am a Soldier talks of defeating the Japanese, vanquishing Nationalist leader Chiang Kai Shek in the Communist revolution and being tested by the revolutionary war. The performance “brought forth a whirlwind of Chinese military spirit in a foreign land,” said a report on the concert.

    The recital earlier this month at the Centre for the Performing Arts in Richmond Hill, Ont., was not offered by a visiting martial choir from Beijing.

    It was the work of a surprising new Canadian association, dedicated to retired troops of the China’s People’s Liberation Army or PLA — China’s armed forces — who are now settled in this country.


    Singers dressed in the uniform of China’s People Liberation Army perform at a concert in Richmond Hill, Ont.


    A group salutes in unison the flags of Canada, China and the PLA during a 2018 retreat in Ontario’s cottage country.


    Casually dressed veterans reproduce the Chinese military’s distinctive marching style in front of a People’s Republic flag.

  158. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Honestly, could you stop sidetracking the issue?
    You repeatedly claimed Chinese church buildings were torn down(for reasons other building codes/zoning/registration/public health regulation); I asked you to quote some examples, you can’t then you switched to visa for Chinese preachers in US to tell me Christians are being persecuted?

    Look, I’m a Christian(of alternative conviction) (and I once contemplated of getting a theology degree and became a pastor) and never felt being persecuted when I was in china and instead many fundamental Christians knee jerked in very volatile manners to my exposition on Psalm 23 that the relationship between a shepherd and his sheeps has remained unchanged for millenniums that the sheeps are slaughtered for their meat and hide. I would really love to see if they would physically assault/’comfort‘ me with their ‘staff and rod
    ……..
    If a preacher asked his/her followers to rely on ‘faith healings’ and not to seek modern medical help for serious medical problem, I see justification to give him/her a jail sentence.
    ……….
    That famous or infamous PTL preacher Jim Baaker was also sent to jail for fraud; did it have anything to do with his church building?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  159. Lin says:
    @onebornfree

    Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid, Chinaboy!

    I’m disappointed though not unexpected from a character like you, hahaha..
    Pls keep going…though bashing born freaks isn’t mentally stimulating

  160. Alden says:
    @byrresheim

    I don’t have any cats. And it’s soooo obvious there are a lot of men in this site so repulsive to both men and women that they hate women due to a lifetime of frustration and bitterness in their shabby apartments.

    And their facts are often wrong as Kiel’s was. As for blaming women for the plight White Americans are in, it was all White men who did it. Brown vs Topeka, White men judges. 1964, 65 and 68 civil rights act, immigration act, and affirmative action act White men president Vice President senators and all but about 5 Congress critters were all White men. Griggs and Kaiser Supreme Court rulings all White men.

    You White men did it to yourselves between 1956 and 1973 when America was ruled by White men. In just 17 years White men Supreme Court Judges, 2 presidents 1 Vice President 100 Senators and about 430 congress White men destroyed White men in America

    Don’t blame women, blame your fellow White men. They did it to you.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
    , @byrresheim
  161. denk says:

    Uncle scam to hapless Nepal…
    ‘GImme my precious Tibetans… or else’

    * Department of Immigration (DoI) sent nine Tibetans to jail on April 30 after they refused to pay fines for illegally entering Nepal. The detention evoked so much diplomatic pressure from Western countries, mainly the US, that the Tibetans were released after five days in jail.

    The pressure was so intense that officials at the Nepali embassy in Washington DC had to call up the Immigration Office in Nepal, asking it to release the arrested. *

    The hubris !
    Washington harangued Nepal to release illegit Tibetan immigrants so they could join the rank of ‘persecuted Tibetans’

    *”We are in an awkward situation,” say DoI officials, who wish to remain anonymous because of the sensitivity of the matter.

    “While one group of Chinese nationals entering Nepal after completing all legal processes are made to pay visa fees and a penalty in case they fail to renew their visa in time, another group of Chinese nationals entering illegally are rewarded for their unlawful deed.”*

    In Nepal,
    ONe law for non Tibetan , another law for the precious Tibetans, as per Washington’s dictat.

    Such is the LONG arm of murikkan ‘ extra-territorial jurisdiction’,
    heheheheh

    *Officials in Nepal fear that there could be a well-coordinated organization involved in bringing Tibetans illegally to Nepal and later sending them to Dharamshala, India and to Western countries through the help of UNHCR.

    The apprehension comes as arrested Tibetans said, during interrogations, that brokers brought them to Nepal with promises to take them to Western countries where they could lead comfortable lives. Those arrested even disclosed that they each paid Chinese Yuan 15,000 to 17,000 to brokers.*

    Well whaddaya know?
    Fukus, India, UN conspiring to traffick hookwinked Tibetan ‘refugees’ to India and the West, promising them the sky, so they could join the swelling rank of ‘persecuted Tibetans’, to be showcased to the world !

    How did those poor Tibetan peasants pay for such exorbitant fee ?
    They prolly sold their houses, perhaps their mothers as well, they were told that the streets of USA are paved with gold, once there, everything would be fine, poor sods. !

    *Government officials said UNHCR has been found providing as much as Rs 25,000 as ´incentives´ to police for bringing 10 Tibetans arrested in the border districts of Dolakha and Sindhupalchowk to Kathmandu. When DoI objected to this recently, UNHCR officials said it was an ´incentive´ to police to get the job done.

    “Because of such ´incentive´ police officials are keen to bring the arrested to Kathmandu instead of sending them back home,” said an official.

    When contacted, officials at the Tibetan Reception Center refused to talk to this newspaper, saying they were not authorized to talk, and told us to contact UNHCR-Nepal.

    UNHCR-Nepal Assistant External Relations Officer Nini Gurung, when contacted for official comment, also declined to comment, citing the sensitivity of the issue.*

    I bet its a ‘sensitive‘ issue LOL.

    UN agency , squandering public money, thwarting Nepalese due process for illegit immigrants, abet in trafficking such illegals to India and the West to serve Washington’s geo political shenanigans.

    hehehheheh

    http://web.archive.org/web/20100630085513/http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=20403

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Showmethereal
  162. @Lin

    The Chinese example was off of WeChat from people in the church, same people that I’m talking about. Some of these are people I trust to tell me the truth, rather than some jokers on the internet.

    I know you are a big China booster, but it sounds like you don’t live there. Do you? My info. is from people in China and Chinese people who live locally. I will be in China in the near/medium future and will check it out more. Last time there, I saw ZERO churches, but that’s probably location dependent.

    … many fundamental Christians knee jerked in very volatile manners to my exposition on Psalm 23 that the relationship between a shepherd and his sheeps has remained unchanged for millenniums that the sheeps are slaughtered for their meat and hide. I would really love to see if they would physically assault/’comfort‘ me with their ‘staff and rod‘

    It sounds like you are not on-board with the whole idea. I don’t think the analogy of a shepherd and his flock of sheep is to be carried through to the slaughter-house. Lots of sheep are raised for the wool – is there an analogy there? In line with what I wrote above, many a Chinese personality is such that the ideas of Jesus cannot take hold. I can’t blame ’em completely, as Jesus does seem like a Commie sometimes, when you listen to the parables. Lord knows the Chinese people have had enough of Communism. I can’t say the same for Godfree’s Comm-in-tards that show up on unz.com

    If a preacher asked his/her followers to rely on ‘faith healings’ and not to seek modern medical help for serious medical problem, I see justification to give him/her a jail sentence.

    That’s your Chinese “authoritah” mentality coming through. The individual or, for children, the parents are responsible, no matter what terrible advice they got from their church.

    That famous or infamous PTL preacher Jim Baaker was also sent to jail for fraud; did it have anything to do with his church building?

    Your logic is unsound. What did that have to do with the buildings? The ones destroyed in China are for the purposes of squashing Christianity. Over here, they just do it in a more subtle manner, via TV shows for 40 years.

    • Replies: @Lin
  163. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    Your precious China is controlled by Zionists.

    • Replies: @denk
  164. denk says:
    @anon

    My precious China ?

    Im simply pro truth.

    On so many issues, China are proven right, eventually.
    it’s the ‘west’ that keep lying thru their teeth.

    • Agree: d dan
    • Replies: @anon
  165. Richard P says:
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for the intriguing geography lesson and I learned a lot. I never doubted his story as he appeared to know the region and showed me an assortment of pictures of his hometown that closely resembled your descriptions. He explained how dangerous the mountain passes were and that the roads were treacherous — and often narrow with significant exposure. I’ve never been to that region, but would visit if the opportunity ever presented itself.

  166. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    Is China controlled by Zionists yes or no? Be honest.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Daniel Chieh
  167. @Anon 2

    The article is simply accusations. Investigations dont mean there is guilt. A few featured researchers quit and moved to China to work there after living in the US. If there was nothing in their contract stating they couldnt take a “summer job” in China – that is not their fault. So some quit and some got fired. But it wasnt illegal. Now they took their brilliant minds to China where they arent automatically a suspect because of their ethnicity. Brillliant stratgey to make China great again. Meanwhile Europeans are opening medical and biotech research labs in China. Seems they get it..

  168. @Rahan

    Yeah i found that analysis strange. Aside from BRICS and the new Silk Roads…. There is the AIIB – the SCO and soon to be signed RCEP (largest free trade area). So the idea they are going to close off makes no sense since they lead all those organizations. You are correct it is the Anglo crowd China is becoming isolated from. Not the other 5+ billion people in the world.

  169. denk says:
    @anon

    I know all about Jams corbet’s B.S.
    not convinced.

    MEAN WHILE, I’ve an appointment with
    mr Zhou.

  170. @byrresheim

    “Because trolling men who do not respond in kind, having been brought up in a misplaced respect for elderly women, brings solace at times when even your cats find you unappealing.”

    Touche`

  171. Erebus says:
    @Ray Huffman

    Hey, wasn’t Japan supposed to eat all our lunches 30 years ago?

    They did, and may never recover.

  172. AaronB says:
    @BlackFlag

    Everything has to die before something new and interesting can be born. Death is the prelude to new life.

    Look, I’m not really blaming the Chinese for trying to be like the West for a while. Maybe that’s what they specifically need before they can move on. Japan had a hyper Western phase too, but it’s becoming more Japanese lately.

    I’m just saying that that’s not interesting from a Western perspective anymore. And that China and the East in general is now boring for Western intellectuals because it isn’t anything different and new. Its just the old power and wealth game that the West knows so well.

    And the West is moving away from the old power and wealth and control game because they found it is a dead end. You get it, and then life is pretty boring. There’s nowhere else to go. So the West is having an orgy of self destruction so that fun and unpredictability can be added back into life again.

    But maybe this what the Chinese need for a while, and that’s fine. Its just not something I need to be paying attention to for the time being because I know all about it already. The interesting new things will be happening elsewhere.

  173. @Kiel

    Eh, it’s Darwinism at its best, might as well encourage them.

    My family and community gave me deep programming in “white knight” behavior.

    It is a hard habit to break–but I am working on it!

  174. @ChineseMom

    Very interesting take. I have my own anecdotal experiences that make your words familiar. In just one case I knew a young man sent as a teen to high school in the US who wemt to university.. He wasnt impressed at all by the US and only came because his father was ome of the Pro-US Chinese that you spoke of (even though he himself never visited). He stayed in obedience to his father. I havent seen him since he graduated or the trade war started. I would be interested to here what his fathers perspective was now since Trump atarted his confrontation. As I said he was clear – he liked meeting the differemt types of people that live in the US and learning about many different types of people – but other than that – there was nothing the young adult really preferred about the US compared to his life in China. He though was very much one of those who surpresses his feeling in deferrence to authority (which is why he never told his father he would rather come back to China after school) – and he actually was put off by how youngsters in the US disrespect authourity. I think that is a good trait to have actually.

  175. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    My info. is from people in China and Chinese people who live locally

    It just means you encounters are filtered. Even if one examines the religious life of an average believers, there’re always ups and downs. There’re always unhappy moments of a person’s life like lots of fundamentalist Christians in US moan that US is becoming Sodom 2.0
    …..
    Regarding Psalm 23, I have mentioned here and there “The sheeps were fleeced without their consent”. The shepherds(ancient or modern) don’t slaughtered their sheeps? You must be kidding me. Tell me where do super markets get their mutton? From mountain goats? You even don’t admit to some simple facts.
    ….
    I asked you to sustain your claims Chinese church buildings were torn down(for reasons other building codes/zoning/registration/public health regulation) ; So far you just sidetracked the issue.

    Look, there are always vulnerable people, due to their mental state or age or social circumstance.

    That’s your Chinese “authoritah” mentality coming through. The individual or, for children, the parents are responsible, no matter what terrible advice they got from their church.

    Ever heard of the term Child Abuses ?
    https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2011/03/bill_ending_faith_healing_exce.html
    ….

    That famous or infamous PTL preacher Jim Baaker was also sent to jail for fraud; did it have anything to do with his church building?
    Your logic is unsound. What did that have to do with the buildings? The ones destroyed in China are for the purposes of squashing Christianity.

    You’re the one who linked church buildings to govt/public reception of the religion and preacher, NOT me.
    You basically deny that the Christian religion or christian cripture or christian pastors can’t do no wrong and if a church building is brought down, it must have to do with persecution. Were the charges against Jim Bakker fabricated or he was persecuted by competitor Jimmy Swaggart?
    ..
    One can always find fanatics who do harms to their followers and society within any religion. You basically tell me they don’t exist in china.
    My conclusion: You’re pushing propaganda

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  176. @Alden

    All this is true, but for the fact that I am not blaming women with one word.

    Perhaps if you omitted some of your rude and unfounded personal attacks?

  177. @Alden

    All this is true, but for the fact that I am not blaming women with one word.

    Perhaps if you omitted some of your rude and unfounded personal attacks?

  178. @Lin

    The US is very much heading toward Sodom 2.0, and that’s a great way to put it, BTW.

    The shepherds(ancient or modern) don’t slaughtered their sheeps? You must be kidding me…

    Don’t turn your reading comprehension problems into my “kidding you”, Lin. I know this is not your first language so, TRY HARDER. I don’t even try to write in Chinese, and I respect those who can learn a language so different. Don’t reply stupidly based on your language problems.

    I just got telling you what i know from people I trust. Believe me or not – that’s up to you. I’m not looking it up to get stats, as there is a load of propaganda out there. Like I said, I’ll have a more personal report fairly soon. I’m sure not gonna take the word of one of Godfree’s ‘tards here on the internet either. The church I was talking about was taken down due to persecution. Who knows about Jim Bakker’s? It’s been 35 years, as I recall. It was a matter of financial fraud.

    Child abuses [sic]? That doesn’t come from a preacher giving bad advice. One does not have to listen. Maybe were you not a closet Commie, you could understand stuff like that.

    One can always find fanatics who do harms to their followers and society within any religion. You basically tell me they don’t exist in china.

    Yes, there always are. No, I didn’t say that doesn’t exist in China. However, in a free society it’s not some central government’s job to fix the problem. It’s up to the people involved to be responsible. We have a word for that that the Chinese have no way of understanding. It’s called “freedom” and “free will”.

    “You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
    You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
    I will choose a path that’s clear-
    I will choose Free Will.”

    • Replies: @denk
  179. Lin says:

    Thank you.
    First of all, I can’t type except alphabet by alphabet,
    (My greatest regret in life is that I failed to learn musical instruements)
    Mistyping aside, grammatical details IMO are minor matter. I do read a lot and I don’t think I’ve regular reading/comprehension problem. My reading list includes books the average US college grads don’t bother to touch.
    (BTW, I’m also a part-time muslim contemplating forming a new sect as a mental exercise.)

    However, in a free society it’s not some central government’s job to fix the problem

    So Jim Jones and David Koresh were victims of US govt bloody persecution. Right on.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  180. eagles says:

    Derb would have a hard time finding a wife in today’s China
    Dangling US citizenship doesn’t have the same effect any more

    • Replies: @Rex Little
    , @pockwock
  181. @Godfree Roberts

    Sounds reasonable until he gets to the “Native American” nonsense. There are, in fact, more such people alive in North America today than there were before our forebears arrived here. That was also true when the bureaucrat wrote that piece.

    I’ll bet that the guy is a tiny fraction “Native American” in any event.

    I wonder whether he enrolled in a tribe and collected his share of natural-resource royalties or, later, casino profits.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @GammaRay
  182. @Lin

    So Jim Jones and David Koresh were victims of US govt bloody persecution. Right on.

    No, absolutely not for the former case, proving my point a whole lot more than yours. I was going to mention the “Peoples’ Temple” cult, in fact, but my last comment got too long, what with the Rush music and all…

    Peak Stupidity has a 4-part retrospective on the Jonestown Suicide/Massacre (it was both) from 40 years later – please read Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4 on “Drinking the Commie Kool-Aid – 40 years back”. The government involvement in this amounted to an investigation by one Congressman, Mr. Leo Ryan, who was shot and killed down in Guyana*. That shows you how much the US Government has metastasized since the late 1970’s, as, no, it was really not any government’s business – the old black ladies willingly gave their Social Security checks to supplement the failing Communist economy of Jonestown, Guyana.

    As for David Koresh, yes, you are quite right, he and 70-odd men, women and children were murdered by agents of the US government. He could have been simply arrested any time in broad daylight in downtown Waco, Texas, but the government wanted to prove a point. This was 15 years after Jonestown and the US Feral Gov’t had indeed metastasized. The best account is probably the video Waco: The Rules of Engagement. Peak Stupidity added just a personal anecdote regarding the media’s take in “More about Waco, TX”.

    You bring up a good point regarding the Branch Dravidians, but this was not about religion really, it was about the US government allowing no quarter to groups that want to be left completely alone. I am happy that Koresh and his gang at least took a number of government agents with them. The US Gov’t cannot do another blatant Waco. They know that many other Americans WILL react next time. That’s why the agenda is being pushed more subtly in media, government, and education, as the Long March of the Commies through the institutions was very successful. The big push is still to find excuses to take Americans’ guns. That’s not panning out too well… story unfolding …

    .

    * See “They (still) shoot congressmen, don’t they?”

    • Replies: @Lin
  183. @eagles

    Derb would have a hard time finding a wife in today’s China
    Dangling US citizenship doesn’t have the same effect any more

    I don’t believe Derb had US citizenship to dangle when he was courting Rosie in China. If I’m reading the timeline correctly from his various personal accounts, he came to the US a year after that, and then only on an H-1 visa. He might have gotten his citizenship before they married, but they certainly would have been engaged by then.

    Derb, if you’re reading this, please correct me if I’m wrong.

  184. @Redneck farmer

    I have an increasing sympathy for Diocletian’s religious policies.

    Yeah, he saved everybody’s bacon and, if it hadn’t been for the almost military approach he took to Christianity within the Empire the Papacy would not have had the prestige needed to pull the Catholic Church together into what became the framework of the European Middle Ages after the Empire fell. Funny how things work out.

    Counterinsurgency

  185. Smith says:

    Meh, another day, another China article.

    After reading so much and seeing their reaction in Hong Kong, I’m convinced this is all China can do. They are merchants, they value their trade deals and they ignore demographic issues.

    Come 20 years when the demographic issue come crashing down upon them, and they have to import africans to take care of themselves, then the africans will take care of the chinks.

    All of us just need to arm ourselves with the best weapons, have a positive birthrate, improve your national infrastructure and wait. And of course, protect our borders to prevent the afri-chinks migration waves.

    Everyone thought the mongols would be Angolmois too, and look what happened to them.

  186. Vidi says:
    @RadicalCenter

    There are, in fact, more [indigenous Americans] alive in North America today than there were before our forebears arrived here.

    That is false. According to Wikipedia (link), “Most scholars writing at the end of the 19th century estimated that the pre-Columbian population was as low as 10 million; by the end of the 20th century most scholars gravitated to a middle estimate of around 50 million, with some historians arguing for an estimate of 100 million or more.”

    According to World Population Review (link), which cites the U.S. Census, the current native population in the U.S. is 6.79 million.

    So the current indigenous population, after some recovery, is still far lower than even the lowest estimate of what the population used to be before the Europeans started genociding them.

    You are wrong — and are probably attempting to relieve your conscience somewhat by disguising how deliberate and thorough the elimination truly was.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  187. @Vidi

    Don’t just read the 1st paragraph of wiki articles for your “facts”, Vidi. The 10 to 50 million estimate is for all of “the Americas” – that means South, Central, and North America. N. America had the fewest based on climate.

    What a scholar you are! I sure hope you don’t represent the average Chinese grad student in your “researching” abilities.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  188. @Anonymous

    You are so racist you dont know how silly younare. There are lots of African business people and traders in China. That is the difference. They didnt go to China as slaves and then kept in segregation or urban slums. They went there to be productive. Also more African college students are studying in China than any other country. They usually do not stay though – as the point of China educating them is for them to go and build up back Africa. China is pragmatic. They have built billions in infrastructure in Africa and loaned billions more. They want to ensure a good return on their investment. Hence apart from China have more reasonably priced tertiary education – they give more scholarships to Africans than anyone else.

  189. @denk

    Yup. Same is done with Uighurs.

    • Replies: @denk
  190. @Achmed E. Newman

    Be serious. The specific North American population is not as much as it was. Including mixed race isnt accurate. Central and South though they are much more prominent though.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  191. denk says:
    @Showmethereal

    The unitedsnakes make its living stirring shit.

    They dont call it the world’s no 1 shit stirrer for nuthin,

    hehehhe

  192. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    We have a word for that that the Chinese have no way of understanding. It’s called “freedom” and “free will”.

    Wow, its so cool !
    Except..
    YOu should listen to your sage,

    Scrates
    ‘YOur freedom to extend your arm stop infront of my nose’

    Exhibit A.

    Syria never ask you into their country…

    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/10/24/us-troops-staying-in-syria-to-keep-the-oil-have-already-killed-hundreds/

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  193. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The fact is the US police/military could have avoided the bloodshed imposed on the followers of 2 spiritual sects of the Godly religion of Christianity. Mind you Jim Jones was honored repeatedly as a civil right leader by the San Francisco democrats(Jimmy Carter included if I remember right). Apparently the big majority of his followers willingly took the cool aide so that they could ascend to paradise together. Its like Issac, son of Abraham, willingly self-sacrificed on the Alter of Yahweh.
    ………….
    I bet if Jim Jones were Chinese and the raid happened in China, the yankee press would’ve elevated him to sainthood and they’ll claim 100,000 Christians were killed by the Chinese army.

  194. homahr says:
    @Alden

    I think if any foreigner wants to travel anywhere in South Asia or the Middle East, (India, Pakistan, Saudi, Iran etc) should go in a group and never alone.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  195. @anon

    Is China controlled by Zionists yes or no? Be honest.

    No.

    I’ll like to understand how you believe such a mechanism would function with the CCP.

    • Replies: @anon
  196. @Showmethereal

    Yeah, I was correcting the numbers from the wiki link nicely provided to RC from Mr. Vidi on the one thing. I have no idea of the number of pure-bred Indians living here now. You’re right that it’s probably not that many. You’ve got to start with good numbers at least, though.

  197. @Lin

    The US Gov’t DID steer clear of the “People’s Temple” group*, with the exception of the investigation by Congressman Leo. Read the Peak Stupidity links, Lin.

    Jim Jones, though charismatic, was a Commie piece of shit. Hey, Jimmy was a fan, and Nancy Reagan had even met the man. What does that mean? Lots of special-civil-rights-for-minorities leaders were Socialists or Communists. However, without Jone’s idiots having an active insurrection in progress against the Fed-Gov, there was no reason for them to be involved with their stupidity in both San Francisco and Guyana. That is the way it panned out too, until the aftermath investigation, as it should be.

    I bet if Jim Jones were Chinese and the raid happened in China, the yankee press would’ve elevated him to sainthood and they’ll claim 100,000 Christians were killed by the Chinese army.

    I kinda doubt that. The American press is evil, but not quite as evil yet as the press in Communist governments. Yes, they are both branches of their respective governments, for all practical purposes.

    And, DAMMIT, it’s Kool-Aid!. Have you never heard the expression that COMES FROM the Jonestown suicide/massacre?

    .

    * As I already wrote you, the Waco Massacre was a completely different story.

    • Replies: @Lin
  198. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    China exhibits the beginning stages of all the degenerate trends you see in the “Western” world. I notice Chinese people and the Chinese state have no racial consciousness whatsoever, allowing Africans to come to Guangzhou and breed with Chinese women. Africans frankly need to be sterilized and starved.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  199. @denk

    Yes, the US has no business in Syria, the whole Middle East, S. Korea, Taiwan, and pretty much anywhere outside of the 50 states and the territories. What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

    BTW, who’s my sage?

    • Replies: @denk
  200. pockwock says:
    @eagles

    Derb was living in the States from the early seventies

    • Replies: @Rex Little
  201. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I kinda doubt that. The American press is evil, but not quite as evil yet as the press in Communist governments. Yes, they are both branches of their respective governments, for all practical purposes.


    Tell me, what % of the younger gen of yankees know Jim jones was once such a lovable figure, eh?
    ………
    During the crack down outside Tiananman square in 1989, about 180 Chinese soldiers and 280 rioters dies in the fighting and the western press all claimed 10s of 1000s mostly peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators were crushed by tanks. Yes, go ahead to spread your propaganda. There’s one thing western press seldom mentioned these days but you can sure spin on it: Most of the former rioters avoid mentioning their role in that event.
    Not the least, remember how the US press helped the yank MIC to spin on sadam’s WMD to justify Bush Jr’s embargo and war that resulted in 500,000 of death?

    And, DAMMIT, it’s Kool-Aid!. Have you never heard the expression that COMES FROM the Jonestown suicide/massacre?

    yes, it’s cool aide, WTF care since I don’t drink it. IMO, you’ve consumed gallons of the stuff, haha..

    As I already wrote you, the Waco Massacre was a completely different story

    Great, so followers of a sect of godly Christianity got murdered but who were held responsible?. Praise Jesus that they now rest in the bosom of the Lord.

  202. @anon

    Well, to be specific in our terminology: Zionism is support for the state of Israel and its interests.

    On a national level, that is usually done through lobbies(including official ones such as a state embassy). It is more difficult for such lobbies to work with the CCP than in a democratic society; the CCP is also suspicious of any alternate power blocs. There are other venues of influence and power: media, academia, etc. The CCP also tries to have a stranglehold of power there.

    As such, I’m very doubtful that Zionism has much influence on the Politburo level, or even the Chinese National Congress.

    As for your social considerations, that’s a different kettle of fish entirely.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Lin
  203. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Technically, your definition of Zionism is correct. But for many of us who use that word, it refers broadly speaking to jewish power and influence in the host society, which manifests in various ways, one of which is the example I used.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  204. @pockwock

    Derb was living in the States from the early seventies

    Not continuously. He came over in 1973 for 4-plus years (overstaying his tourist visa, as he himself admits). He returned here for good in 1985. The period in between included his time in China teaching English, which is when he met his wife.

  205. @d dan

    I would call that self-discipline, sacrifice or delayed gratification, etc.

    When self-suppressing becomes a culture or the automatic reactions when facing challenges, it’s not self-discipline anymore. It is true that it made people have self-discipline sometime, but the more often consequences are that it makes people being a coward, dare not to take the risks or to face the challenges, not to know who they are, what they want, where their limit is, not good at communication, etc. I think this is one of the main reasons that China’s civilization and culture didn’t change much for almost 2000 years. When you don’t face the challenges, you are unlikely to make any breaks.

    I think China already stops importing western ideology, political thoughts, economic theory, social concepts (“diversity”, “gay rights”, …), etc. Their humanity ideas not being accepted by the west, does not mean they are lagging “behind the West”.

    China lags behind the West in humanity in almost every area and in big ways. A simple example: if you can read Chinese, google the Chinese word “文化” and it’s corresponding English meaning “culture”, you will see a big difference. The Chinese word “文化” has almost the same meaning and usage as English word “culture”, but there is not even one Chinese dictionary (online or on paper) gives reasonable good explanation or the usage of this word while almost every online English dictionary does. This is just one example. You can randomly pick any word and compare the online English dictionary definition with Chinese counterpart.

    In humanity, we lack not only the culminations of knowledge and the works, but also the effective system to gain, to judge and to preserve the knowledge. Ron wrote this How Social Darwinism Made Modern China (http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/) when he was a freshman in Harvard. When I first read it, I wouldn’t say that I agree with everything, but I thought it’s quite insightful and provided a unique angle to look at China. I posted the Chinese version to my college WeChat group a couple of years ago, one person told me that he had read it in a Chinese online forum and thought the paper was interesting, he was quite amazed when I told him that the author was a college freshman when he wrote this paper. Can a Beijing University (Harvard equivalent in China) student or a professor in humanity fields write something about the U.S. that makes Americans think interesting? Not now, not in decades. Most of their researches and writings about China are not even worthy to read, not to mention to provide some insightful information about a foreign country.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @Daniel Chieh
  206. Lin says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Zionism = jews return to Zion(Jerusalem) or support for the formation of a pre-messiah jewish state.
    Zionists categorically include the followings:
    –Adolf Hitler, who wanted initially to deport german jews to Israel(if one sticks to the original meaning of Zionism)
    –All nations that recognize diplomatically Israel(as de-facto admission to it’s existence)
    ………….
    Anti-Zionists include:
    –Countries that consistently refuse to recognize Israel
    –Hasidic jews, like the Satmars who consider the notion of pre-messiah jewish state as blasphemy.

  207. @Godfree Roberts

    Sorry, but I do not understand what a negative share of National Wealth looks like. (Japan, UK, USA. Chart.) Please explain.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  208. @Lin

    Your 2nd paragraph makes some sense, Lin, but the rest is coming through with no understandable point. On of your biggest impediments to your understanding of what an American writes is that you think that the people and the government of a country are one and the same. The Chinese have no history of anything but respect for their anointed “betters”, whether good or bad. I have a feeling they will pay for that yet again in the future.

    For a while there you came in somewhat reasonable, and I figured you could understand my comments. If you refuse to even try to understand my comments, you are one Comm-ent-tard that I am done with.

    • Replies: @Lin
  209. @Rahan

    Your post and Derb’s remark, remind me of the once upon a time headline in The Times (Of London) “Fog in Channel, Continent cut off”.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  210. @Anon 2

    Compare the Corruption Perceptions rankings:

    Japan 19
    the U.S. 22
    South Korea 45
    India 78
    China 87
    N. Korea 176

    Is that (the U.S. 22) counting “Lobbying” as a non-corrupt activity?

  211. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I study religion and I understand the psychology of self-righteousness, being and identity and I perfectly understand you. One thing you grossly misjudged; I have no nostalgic notion regarding many facets of Chinese culture. As I mentioned before, Confucius was a bastard and Chinese male chauvinism sucks.

  212. Dumbo says:
    @attilathehen

    I never read Derb’s articles. I just come here to read Attilathehen’s comments, and they rarely disappoint. 😀

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  213. @foolisholdman

    Good question. I’m busy but perhaps you can dig beyond the summary, which says,

    Another key institutional factor to understand the rise of private wealth-income ratios is the gradual transfer from public wealth to private wealth. This is particularly spectacular in the case of China, where the share of public wealth in national wealth dropped from about 70% in 1978 to 35% by 2015. The corresponding rise of private property has important consequences for the levels and dynamics of inequality of income and wealth. In rich countries, net public wealth (public assets minus public debts) has become negative in the US, Japan and the UK, and is only slightly positive in Germany and France. This arguably limits government ability to redistribute income and mitigate rising inequality. The only exceptions to the general decline in public property are oil-rich countries with large public sovereign funds, such as Norway.

    From:

    GLOBAL INEQUALITY DYNAMICS: NEW FINDINGS FROM WID.WORLD
    Facundo Alvaredo Lucas Chancel Thomas Piketty Emmanuel Saez Gabriel Zucman
    Working Paper 23119 http://www.nber.org/papers/w23119
    NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH 1050 Massachusetts Avenue
    Cambridge, MA 02138
    February 2017, Revised April 2017

  214. Actually, as I pointed out in the thread about China earlier, this notion of China vs the US masks the key reality that both countries are the only industrial, modern countries still growing at a fast clip.
    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?end=2018&locations=US-JP-FR-GB-CN&start=1990

    The US is pulling away from other developed countries on a PPP per capita basis, and this is still taking into consideration that immigration lowers US per capita income.
    According to most surveys, Whites hold about 65% of income in the United States economy, with some having it at 70%. That would give them roughly $13-14 trillion dollars at constant terms. Adjust for the size of the White size of the population 197 million, and that gets you to a per capita income of around $72000 dollars. Around twice that of Japan’s per capita income, and their population is entirely ethnically Japanese!

    Meanwhile China is converging toward developed countries like France, Japan, UK, even though China is starting from a very low base and has an easier time of growth. Who knows if it will sustain, but will be interesting to see!

    The future is probably going to be revolving around three countries, China, US, and maybe India.

  215. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    IOW,
    The USA is a rogue state run by thuggish regime.

    What’r you gonna do about it ???

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  216. @denk

    Who knows? It’s sure not the business of some retarded Commies on the internet.

    • Replies: @denk
  217. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s sure not the business of some retarded Commies on the internet.

    hey moron,
    The day USA decides to rule the world, its
    everybody’s bussiness,

    who knows ?

    So USA is not your bloody bussiness,

    BUt everything in China is your gawd damned business ?

    What fucking hypocrite. !

  218. d dan says:
    @ChineseMom

    “When self-suppressing becomes a culture or the automatic reactions when facing challenges, it’s not self-discipline anymore. It is true that it made people have self-discipline sometime, but the more often consequences are that it makes people being a coward, dare not to take the risks or to face the challenges, not to know who they are, what they want, where their limit is, not good at communication, etc. I think this is one of the main reasons that China’s civilization and culture didn’t change much for almost 2000 years. When you don’t face the challenges, you are unlikely to make any breaks.”

    Fair criticism and good comment on over self-suppression, until you make a big leap into sweeping statement about the 2000 years culture, a complicated topic that will be a big digression from this exchange.

    As in all human traits, too much of anything is always bad. Furthermore, different stage of development demands different level of self-suppression and discipline from its people. Judging from the last few decades of achievements, I don’t consider China to be overly self-suppressed. Going forward, I agree that they can, and I believe they will inevitably loosen up as the country get richer.

    “China lags behind the West in humanity in almost every area and in big ways. … google the Chinese word “文化” and it’s corresponding English meaning “culture”, you will see a big difference… You can randomly pick any word and compare the online English dictionary definition with Chinese counterpart”

    LOL, you again make good observation about the comparison of definitions of “文化”, but then jump into sweeping generalization about “China lags behind the West in humanity…”. Firstly, using google or even online definition is clearly biased. Secondly, I don’t know the origin of the words “文化”, but I won’t be surprised if it comes from western concept, or don’t have ancient Chinese root. So, this example really doesn’t shed much light about Chinese humanity thinking. Finally, if you want the reverse examples, please look up equivalence of English words for ancient Chinese concepts of “道”, “义”, “礼”, “君”, “孝”, “节”, “仁”,…(and many more) You will find that some don’t even have equivalent English words, and for others, the Chinese meanings are much more nuanced and rich.

    “Can a Beijing University … student or a professor in humanity fields write something about the U.S. that makes Americans think interesting? ”

    Of course, they can and they do write interesting things about U.S., about Europe, Russia, Japan, and the world. However, I agree it is generally a tall order to make American interested, but that is mainly due to their inherent close-mindedness, arrogance or even racism against the Chinese thinking.

    An example is 范勇鹏 series of talks that analyze corruption in China vs America. See

    and several others that you probably can search up. He dissects the subtle difference of the concept of corruption among different society. In one of the talk, he mentions the opposite of corruption is “清明”, which really has no equivalent translation in English (go ahead, try find one if you can)

    Finally, please note that humanity is different from technical fields. Don’t confuse “advancement” in humanity with “usefulness”. For example, China has two category for gender identity, and America has how many, 13?. I say it is good that China lags behind US and hopefully forever, in this area.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  219. @anon

    I don’t really think the CCP allows anyone else to have power anyway.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  220. @ChineseMom

    Can a Beijing University (Harvard equivalent in China) student or a professor in humanity fields write something about the U.S. that makes Americans think interesting

    Well, many Americans both read minimally and have scant interest in the existence of other countries so I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  221. GammaRay says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Sounds reasonable until he gets to the “Native American” nonsense. There are, in fact, more such people alive in North America today than there were before our forebears arrived here. That was also true when the bureaucrat wrote that piece.

    On that tangent, there are more white people alive in the US in 2019 (approx 198 million out of 329 million) than there ever has been historically. The only thing that’s changed has been the percentage of the population that they constitute. Yet for some reason WN continue to kvetch about “white genocide” (LOL). Do you understand how your logic regarding the native americans is faulty now? Even assuming that native americans might be more numerous now in absolute terms (I dont know the real answer to this and dont feel like trying to find the answer right now), this doesnt change the fact that they are a broken people with a dying culture who constitute only a small proportion of the population that they used to. If you are unable to understand why this is a negative thing for the native americans then why is it that you complain about white displacement and immigration?

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  222. @Daniel Chieh

    Well, many Americans both read minimally and have scant interest in the existence of other countries so I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison.

    I was comparing the best Chinese university with the best American university, it is an apple to apple comparison.

    Compare to the U.S., China’s strength is in the lower to middle class population. The traditional culture characteristics of self-suppressing, respect of authority, hard working, herd mentality, close family relationship, etc. , are all good for people in these segments of society to survive the hardships in life and to move up when there’s opportunity. I think China’s economic miracle is largely due to the effect of this aspect of the culture on Chinese people, especially on Chinese peasants. The weakness of Chinese culture is that it’s not good for people on the top to think things through, to take the lead and change society, or to take risks when they can afford. That’s why we don’t see much contributions to the culture progress by Chinese intellectuals and culture elites in last 40 years.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @utu
    , @Anonymous
    , @Erebus
  223. @d dan

    I think you completely missed my point. There is not even one reasonably good Chinese dictionary in the entire Chinese language world, not in mainland China, not in Taiwan, not in Hong Kong. Don’t you think this is tells something about the situation in Chinese humanity field?

    Doesn’t matter the word “文化” originated from China or not, we have been using this word more than a hundred years, and we use it or see it almost on daily bases, it’s a common word. But there’s no dictionary giving a good definition or explanation to it. Not only this word, the word you mention above, “道”, “义”, “礼”, “君”, “孝”, “节”, “仁”, I would say that most of Chinese don’t know what those concepts exactly means and there isn’t a good dictionary explains them well.

    • Disagree: d dan
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  224. AaronB says:
    @ChineseMom

    This is exactly my take on China too. Strong in the middle, weak at the top.

    People have been trying to push the super smart Chinese thing for a while, but it just doesn’t fit the empirical facts. Empiricism over theory, in my view.

    China’s strength is its robust middle – and certain social factors, organization and the ability to work hard and live on little, which has long been noted in the literature on China.

  225. @PeterMX

    Over the past 40 years China has risen from being one of the poorest and backwards countries in the world to being the second biggest economy in the world, and some people put them at number one.

    This conflates per capital with total GDP. China was #8 in total GDP 40 years ago, and #2 today. It was near the bottom in per capita GDP, and in the top 1/3 today. It’s funny the way even a guy who’s good with numbers like Alibaba’s Jack Ma keeps repeating that bogus one-liner. He’s not suddenly innumerate – he just lies by reflex.

  226. utu says:
    @ChineseMom

    “…it’s not good for people on the top to think things through, to take the lead and change society, or to take risks when they can afford…” – Providing that we have people who take the lead and change society there is possibility that they lead us to to where we are now that this group on the top is actually disruptive and parasitic and the reason that China experiences the unprecedented growth and development is because it is blessed by absence of this group.

  227. @homahr

    Of course that’s better than alone. But do you want your daughter and five of her girlfriends traipsing around Pakistan?

    What exactly will six women with no firearms do against a group of men?

  228. @Lin

    Nobody young in the USA knows who Jim Jones was.

  229. @Dumbo

    Thanks Dumbo!!! I also comment at Ramzpaul Unz Review.

    Have you seen this article? Please see my comment no. 12: https://www.unz.com/article/does-the-west-have-a-genetic-interest-in-supporting-chinas-uyghurs/

    We have to cure Western males of yellow fever.

  230. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @ChineseMom

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. In my experiences also, Chinese people are excellent at rising up from nothing and attaining success but seem woefully short of ideas when they actually get there.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  231. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @ChineseMom

    As a non Mandarin speaker, I’ve always felt that the phonetic simplicity of the spoken language is a mismatch for the complexity of the written language. I wonder how much the large degree of phonetic overlap forces interpretation down the simplest possible path and favours the reinforcing of old ideas over the propagation of new ones.

    I also wonder how much cultural understanding was lost in the shift from traditional writing to simplified writing.

    And what about the extreme difficulties in assimilating foreign words? They either have to be phoneticized in a way that dishonors both the original word and the Chinese language, or they have to be re-imagined within the constraints of the Chinese language:culture complex.

    By the way, your posts are excellent. Please don’t stop!

  232. denk says:

    Still on those ‘persecuted refugees’…..

    A lucrative part of this income involves the brain-washing of individual Falun Gong cult members to hand-over their earnings, savings and property to Li Hongzhi, but probably a far more lucrative means of illegal income is that of wide-spread immigration fraud, whereby gullible people in China (and other parts of Asia) are promised unimaginable riches in the West – providing they can pay the Falun Gong people smugglers the tens of thousands of dollars required to pack a hundred people or more into the back of a dark and stinking lorry for weeks of suffering, suffering that more often than not ends in death for those stupid enough to trust the Falun Gong. Another method is to purchase a plane ticket for the US and immediately ‘lie’, stating that China is oppressing the Falun Gong and carry-out untrue policies of organ transplant. The FBI in the US has looked into these allegations and the findings of its investigation has revealed a sophisticated Falun Gong operation that uses the false-front of ‘persecution’ to gain immigration Visas for criminally minded Chinese citizens.

    https://thesanghakommune.org/2017/02/05/fbi-falun-gong-immigration-fraud/

  233. @Anonymous

    That’s because the Chinese are a barely average intelligent people.

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @John Arthur
  234. @Counterinsurgency

    Chinese Gordon died in the Sudan facing the Mahdi (or a Mahdi) despite the best efforts of the travel company Thomas Cook and Son to effect logistics support by arranging the passage of a military force down the Nile, relying on Canadian boatmen to traverse the numerous cateracts on the way to Aswan. A peculiar end even by Victorian standards.

    The Business of Travel (Аudiobook)
    https://gumroad.com/l/mwacbt

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  235. @GammaRay

    Nice use of logic.
    Counterinsurgency

  236. @byrresheim

    Just think of the number of women Bernays managed to kill with that “freedom flag” campaign. And the amount of suffering, too, don’t forget that.

    Bernays, the mass murderer. Strange he’s not depicted that way by the anti-smoking people, or criticized by any women’s group either. Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic here.

    Counterinsurgency

  237. Erebus says:
    @ChineseMom

    That’s why we don’t see much contributions to the culture progress by Chinese intellectuals and culture elites in last 40 years.

    Unfortunately, it’s “intellectuals and cultural elites” that have driven Western culture into the gutter in those same 40 years. I’ll take building sewers and power grids over the visions of ideologues and culture vultures that would mould societies according to their often delusional lights.

    A lamp that burns twice as bright, burns half as long. Better, arguably to turn down the “humanity” lamp, rule pragmatically and avoid catastrophic error. Keeping it lit twice as long by turning it down is a perfectly legitimate socio-cultural choice. Keeping it lit as long as possible, even dimly is in fact a culture of its own. You may not like it from your high vantage point, but it has the merit of providing maximum benefit to the maximum number at minimum risk of social upheaval.

    The weakness of Chinese culture is that it’s not good for people on the top to think things through, to take the lead and change society, or to take risks when they can afford.

    Chinese society has changed dramatically in the last 30 yrs of my experience there, and from what I know of it, even more dramatically over the last 100 yrs. China’s dramatic change in the last 30 yrs didn’t happen peacefully because no-one at the top “thought things through”, but because they did. Are the changes visible in the West over the last 40 years because someone at the top thought it through, or because they didn’t?

    In the last 30 years, China has changed about as dramatically as can be imagined. So has the West, but the difference in trajectories is striking. China’s on the other side of their cataclysmic catalysts. The West is approaching theirs. They’ve made dramatic changes, built a country at lightning speed and are now entering a consolidation phase. Who knows what the West will be after its cataclysms, but it will surely be very different than what it is today.

    In any case, culture, always and everywhere, follows prosperity. It takes a lot less time to take a man out of the village than it takes to get the village out of him. It takes generations, in fact. Do I expect Mozarts & Maxwell’s to start popping up everywhere soon? Not really, but neither do I expect Merkels or GW Bushes.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  238. Erebus says:
    @attilathehen

    I remember the old China hand that introduced me to China saying “Erebus, you’re as smart as the smartest man you’re ever likely to meet here, but remember… put 10 of them of them in a room with 10 of you, and they’re now twice as smart.”

    I’m not sure how, or even if the word “smart” applies, but that’s how China works. Things get done. Not often right the first time, but the 2nd and 3rd iterations come in lightning succession and by the 4th it’s as good as it gets. They simply have a different MO.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  239. @Erebus

    I know they have a different MO. They will never be a first world nation like Japan.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Showmethereal
  240. GammaRay says:

    I never understood why the alt-right loves to boohoo china but lift up japan. How can people on the alt-right honestly act like china and japan are that dramatically different? I can’t tell you how many times Ive seen alt-righters try to claim with a straight face that chinese are “barbarians” while the japanese are the only east asian people capable of civilization (whatever that means). All in all, its just a ridiculous argument that makes the alt-right lose credibility when they trot it out. I could understand this line of argumentation if china wasnt constantly improving and was actually remaining a shithole, and I could understand this line of argumentation if the chinese diaspora was stupid and low performing vis-a-vis the japanese diaspora, however we see none of this in the real world. There is very little real world evidence which demonstrates that the chinese are dramatically inferior to the japanese in the manner that the alt-right likes to pretend that they are. I just don’t understand on what basis the alt-right likes to bring out this stupid canard

    My own personal theory for why the alt-right likes to trot out this ridiculous idea is because ultimately its a projection of how they secretly feel regarding china and japan. The alt-right loves to shit on china because at the end of the day they feel threatened by china’s rise and its immense population as well as the influence that it will ultimately have. With regards to japan on the other hand; it is “safe” to idealize and admire japan because for all intents and purposes, japan is a castrated poodle. Japan will never again be in any position to threaten western hegemony after its subjugation by the US, therefore alt-righters feel no threat from japan, in fact its just the opposite; the alt-right feels that the west is entitled to do whatever it wants with japan (similar to the quote Ive seen frequently thrown around that was purportedly said by George Bush, something to the effect of japan being an ATM that the US doesnt even need a PIN for, the primary implication being that japan is the US’s bitch). A secondary, complimentary and more obvious explanation for why the alt-right feels the way it does regarding china and japan is because the alt-right feels that western civilization is threatened by china’s rise and as such they want to sow discord and are hoping that japan can be used to throw a wrench into things. As such they are trying to stir the pot and egg japan on (not that anonymous comments on the internet would really have much of an effect anyways). Funnily enough, if it was japan that was somehow dominant and a threat to western hegemony then you can bet that all the alt-right japan cheerleaders would be badmouthing japan in any way they could and would be pro-china instead. Regardless, its very obvious the general psychology and primitive emotional sentiment which fuels the alt-right’s china hate and japan love complex.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Showmethereal
  241. GammaRay says:
    @Erebus

    A lamp that burns twice as bright, burns half as long. Better, arguably to turn down the “humanity” lamp, rule pragmatically and avoid catastrophic error. Keeping it lit twice as long by turning it down is a perfectly legitimate socio-cultural choice. Keeping it lit as long as possible, even dimly is in fact a culture of its own. You may not like it from your high vantage point, but it has the merit of providing maximum benefit to the maximum number at minimum risk of social upheaval.

    fantastic comment, I couldnt have put it better myself. I think it succinctly describes the east/west dichotomy. Interestingly enough, I suspect that this is true on a biological level as well. White people are generally more physically dynamic than asian people and have a higher peak in their youths but they seem to age a lot faster too which is congruent with what you’re saying.

  242. Erebus says:

    Not sure you’re using “First World” in its original sense. Originally, the American led West was First World, the Soviet Union was the Second World, and everyone else was Third World. Given there ain’t no USSR anymore, the names don’t quite fit.

    They will all but certainly have a 1st world standard of living, but they will not be “Western”. Either is Japan, which seems to be actually getting less Western as it gets old. National, even civilizational senility seems to be its nearest destination.

    In fact, by the time the Chinese achieve that standard of living, I expect that the West’s will have dropped significantly. So, there’d be no 1st world in any sense unless it comes to refer to China’s standard of living.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  243. Erebus says:
    @attilathehen

    My #250 was a reply to your #247.

  244. Anonymous[296] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gruff Intangibles

    Gordon was stubborn and insubordinate. He was ordered to evacuate Khartoum but chose to stay for peculiar reasons of his own. He got himself, his men, and a lot of innocent people who trusted him killed for no reason.

  245. anon[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @GammaRay

    Your personal theory doesn’t amount to much. It seems like projection – a Chinese guy assuming others think and act the way he does.

    There is a lot to admire about Japan

    Japanese companies in every field compete successfully in the global market
    Japan wins more than their share of Fields Medals and Nobel Prizes
    The food is amazing
    The cities are very clean and crime free
    The people are mannered, polite and corruption is minimal
    A very unique and beautiful history and culture
    Japanese doesn’t import any Third World people to ruin it all

    China is a barbaric place
    Falun Gongers get their organs harvested
    Uyghurs are put in concentration camps
    20% of the population has Hepatitis
    Its economic miracle is the result of slave labour and environmental degradation
    The citizenry is constantly monitored
    No original technology – just stuff stolen and counterfeited from the West
    Overseas Chinese are not much better. They game every system possible and don’t produce much economic or cultural value to the countries they invade

    None of this is new. The Jesuits saw striking differences between Chinese and Japanese 500 years ago . Many people, not just alt-righters admire Japan and look down on China.

    The only reason why Derb is a Sinophile because he managed to find a Chinese wife

  246. @anon

    There’s a lot of lol in that, but “minimal corruption” of a place with legal mafia definitely is top kek.

  247. @anon

    The only reason why Derb is a Sinophile because he managed to find a Chinese wife

    Based on Derb’s many posted accounts of his life and travels, it seems more likely that it’s the other way around–he found a Chinese wife because he was already a Sinophile.

  248. @attilathehen

    This is quite a silly comment, and not sure that this is actually a troll.
    However, I think people underestimate Japanese intelligence because of the considerable difficulties(complete economic stagnation) that Japan currently faces.
    Ron Unz has talked about the national merit semifinalists being Chinese and its a good point, but Japanese Americans have higher household incomes than Chinese Americans, despite not having any immigration to the states for decades now, in contast to the very educated Chinese coming from the mainland. Incomes go past all the hullaboo of tests and scores, as not all ethnic groups take that stuff seriously.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income
    And when you take measures that adjust for the fact that household sizes differ, like per capita income, then the difference between Japanese and Chinese become more pronounced.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_per_capita_income
    If you use America as a neutral comparison point, as a controlling environment, you could quite reasonably conclude that Japanese are at least as intelligent as the Chinese, if not slightly more.

  249. @Erebus

    Its an interesting thought for sure.
    However, I am a little skeptical
    Essentially, East Asians nations grow extremely fast until they catch up to about 3/4ths of Western incomes and then stagnate extraordinarly.
    For a few years I was quite confused, and then I read Ron Unz theories on how East Nations have specific immunity to socioeconomic deprivation that other poor nations usually face.
    I think a good example is the difference between the socioeconomic profiles of Hispanics in America vs Hispanics in Latin America, and you can make the real case that even incomes of middle income are deliberating for some groups.
    China seems to be very different, having the IQ of top performing European nations at extreme poverty, then growing rapidly with that extreme benefit.
    But I’m not so sure that China is any different than Japan or Korea other than the fact that the technological frontier was even further out when China began its reforms, and that allowed its growth to be even faster.
    My guess is that if Japan reaches civilizational senility, then China will as well.
    I’m not really sure about the West, Western Europe is surely stagnating, while Eastern Europe is doing very well. Canada, Australia, Ireland are all doing very well.
    You and I disagree on the US, but I would bet that the US outperforms Western Europe, Japan, and Korea for the next 20+ years, while underperforming Eastern Europe, Canada, Australia, and Ireland.
    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=US-KR-JP-RU-CN-PL
    I added Russia to as a good stand in for Eastern Europe, but it seems to have stagnated in recent years. So I added Poland, which seems to be the best run country in the world right now…

  250. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    None of this is new. The Jesuits saw striking differences between Chinese and Japanese 500 years ago.

    Although it should be pointed out that their observations were much more nuanced than your own.

    Excerpts on Chinese:
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/the-chinese-according-to-early-european-reports-t38593.html

    Japanese:
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/the-japanese-according-to-the-european-reports-fro-t31457.html

    See also:

    https://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Japan-Anthology-1543-1640/dp/0939512734

    • Replies: @anon
  251. Erebus says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    If one thinks of the CCP in terms that are better fit to its de facto functions, one sees that it isn’t a political party but is the government. As such, it shouldn’t surprise that it would no more tolerate anyone else claiming/having political power than the American or any sovereign government would.

    When there is a 2nd claimant to sovereign legitimacy in a nation, civil war often, if not typically decides the dispute. The American War of Secession (aka: Civil War) was such an instance. The Taiping Rebellion was another.

  252. GammaRay says:
    @anon

    Your personal theory doesn’t amount to much. It seems like projection – a Chinese guy assuming others think and act the way he does.

    Im not chinese. I’m merely a neutral third party pointing out the absurdity of the undue extremeness of the alt-right position with regards to perceived differences between the chinese and the japanese. With regards to my theory, what else am I to think? To say that the chinese are cultureless barbarians and will always be so, while the japanese are the only non-white bearers of civilization and always have been is a patently absurd, extreme and unfounded statement. It defies real world observation. Ask yourself, who is really being objective here? My stance here is extremely moderate; I am merely making the case that the alt-right likes to exaggerate the differences between the chinese and the japanese, and that while differences certainly exist, they are not as extreme as the alt-right likes to act like they are.

    If everything that the alt-right said regarding the chinese being stupid barbarians was true then we would see massive dysfunction in china, taiwan, hongkong, singapore and all around the world wherever there are chinese diasporas; however in reality we don’t see this at all, in fact we see just the opposite. So why does the alt-right continue to push the canard that the chinese are stupid and inferior to the japanese when reality paints a much different and more nuanced picture? The most reasonable explanation is the one that I offered, which is that the alt-right has a (obvious) complex with regards to china and japan.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  253. GammaRay says:
    @anon

    Japanese companies in every field compete successfully in the global market
    Japan wins more than their share of Fields Medals and Nobel Prizes

    Japan has been a developed first world country for decades longer than China has been. Its disingenuous for you to act as if these things are unique to Japan while completely disregarding the current stages of development that Japan and China are respectively in. China will probably be able to claim these exact same things if it continues at its current rate of development.

    The food is amazing

    Many people could also say the same about (authentic) chinese food as well. A highly subjective point such as this can easily be used to make positive arguments about china as well.

    The cities are very clean and crime free

    I dont feel inclined to research what china’s crime rates are but I do know for certain that china is not a lawless hellhole (I’ve actually been there, have you?). Furthermore, this is another point that can be explained by the respective differentials in terms of the stages of development that Japan and China are in. The fact that you don’t seem to take this factor into consideration makes your entire argument suspect. However I’m not surprised because like I said, your arguments stem from an emotional complex as opposed to being based on logic and facts.

    The people are mannered, polite and corruption is minimal

    I think chinese people will also become equally well mannered, polite and cultured as china becomes more and more developed. In fact I already see this with the younger chinese that I have met. With that being said, the older generation of chinese people never struck me as being particularly rude or ill-mannered either. I think the stereotype about chinese people being rude and impolite definitely has some truth to it, but by now its basically become an exaggerated meme.

    As for corruption…do you even really understand japanese culture (or east asian culture for that matter) at all? This is a serious question. Secondly and equally important, China’s corruption issues are yet another symptom of its current developmental status as a second world country. If china reaches first world status and continues to be extremely corrupt then yes, you can factually state that yes, maybe the chinese are inherently corrupt, however until that point, you can’t just baselessly suggest that the chinese are inherently corrupt. Furthermore I think you should take a look at these corruption ratings:

    https://www.transparency.org/country/SGP (3/180)
    https://www.transparency.org/country/CHN (87/180)
    https://www.transparency.org/country/JPN (18/180)
    https://www.transparency.org/country/TWN (31/180)
    https://www.transparency.org/country/HKG (14/180)

    Ethnically chinese dominated singapore and hongkong are less corrupt than japan according to this website. Taiwan also comes in at a respectable 31/180. If what you said regarding the inherent inferiority of the chinese was true then it would be impossible for ethnically chinese dominated countries to be less corrupt than japan, yet we are seeing just that. As I said before and will say again, real world (factual) observations do not support the alt-right’s belief that the chinese are inherently inferior to the japanese. This is a ridiculous argument that you all need to stop making, it makes you all look very stupid.

    A very unique and beautiful history and culture

    Again, a very subjective opinion. This same argument could be easily used for china as well.

    Japanese doesn’t import any Third World people to ruin it all

    The fact that you chose to include this emotionally loaded statement speaks volumes about your own psychology and the complexes you carry. This only strengthens my theory that the alt-right has a deep, emotional complex regarding japan. As such, this complex prevents the alt-right from seeing things objectively. Also for this point you could similarly use it as an argument for things to admire about China as well. Its not as if china is taking in and settling millions of third world immigrants either (thousands of transient african merchants congregating in a specific region of china hardly counts as importing nation ruining amounts of third world immigrants)

    China is a barbaric place

    is it? Have you actually been there or are you just regurgitating things that you have heard in alt-right echo-chambers?

    Falun Gongers get their organs harvested

    Possibly true. I have no idea, at the same time it reeks of CIA disinformation. I remain agnostic about this

  254. GammaRay says:
    @anon

    Uyghurs are put in concentration camps

    Possibly true like the above, but again it reeks of CIA spin and disinformation. Furthermore even assuming there is some truth to it, I think that this is a reasonable policy when we take into account the fact that the CIA is trying to radicalize the Uyghurs in order to help destabilize China.

    If china was trying to radicalize muslims in america and the US responded by putting muslim radicals in concentration camps then the alt-right would absolutely cheer for this, yet when china tries to take measures to control US fomented islamic radicalism the alt-right tries to use it to criticize china, why is that?

    20% of the population has Hepatitis

    This is the first I’ve heard of this. You need to provide a source for this, a cursory googling of this “fact” brought up nothing close to your 20% figure. Throwing out hysterical, unfounded and easily disproved disinformation like this only damages your credibility.

    Its economic miracle is the result of slave labour and environmental degradation

    I think slave labor is an exaggeration. Chinese people working very cheaply != slave labour. That being said, the US economy was partially built on literal slave labor and this didn’t seem to hurt its prestige any. The same goes for the UK.

    The point regarding environmental degradation is again related to china’s status as a second world country. As china becomes more developed, environmental degradation will become less and less of an issue. Didn’t lots of current first world countries have a history of environmental degradation while they were developing? If this is true, then why are you acting as if china is uniquely responsible for environmental degradation? Your own bias and inability to be objective once again reveals itself.

    The citizenry is constantly monitored

    This is absolutely true and the same thing is true of the west as well. Are you really not aware of the fact that your smart phone is secretly tracking you and is probably secretly recording what you say as well? I assumed this was common knowledge on this corner of the internet. Also there is this too:

    https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13718768/uk-surveillance-laws-explained-investigatory-powers-bill

    Is china a surveillance state? Yes, absolutely. However you are trying to imply that china is unique for being a surveillance state, which is factually wrong. Have you not been paying attention to the news in western countries for the past two decades?

    No original technology – just stuff stolen and counterfeited from the West

    The same is true for the japanese though, where do you think the japanese got all their knowledge to advance so dramatically during the meiji restoration? You’re trying to make the argument that the japanese are inherently superior to the chinese but reality and history both undermine your point. Furthermore, I think that china is doing a lot more original work these days and will continue to produce more and more original work in the future now that they have played “catch-up” in the same way that the japanese did in the late 19th century. Why is it that you apparently have no problem with japan borrowing western technology and ideas, yet when china does it they are suddenly “unoriginal”?

    Overseas Chinese are not much better. They game every system possible and don’t produce much economic or cultural value to the countries they invade

    The alt-right likes to act like chinese people are horrible barbarians but all the ones I meet IRL seem pretty normal. They are typically educated, intelligent, law abiding citizens. I’ve never really had a problem with chinese people in real life. Im sure there are some bad eggs out there, but I just haven’t met any. Also its rich that you use the term “invade”. If you call peaceful chinese immigrants “invaders” then what does that make violent european colonists? Your ridiculous and bombastic statements once again betray your own intense emotional biases and inability to think objectively.

    None of this is new. The Jesuits saw striking differences between Chinese and Japanese 500 years ago . Many people, not just alt-righters admire Japan and look down on China.

    Once again I will restate my original argument: There are indeed some differences between the japanese and the chinese, however the alt-right purposely exaggerates the extent of these differences. In the real world the chinese and japanese are more similar than they are different. Its beyond clear that the alt-right has a powerful emotional complex when it comes to china and japan, your attempt to claim otherwise doesn’t change this fact.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AaronB
  255. @Lin

    Well Falun Gong is equivalent to Jim Jones and we do see that result. Falun gong indeed would be called a cult in the west. Really – so would the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan form of Buddhism.

  256. @attilathehen

    That is an interesting take since for centuries Japan learned culture and civic society from China. They only stopped during the Meiji period when they realized China had missed the Industrial Revolution.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  257. @GammaRay

    Pretty much yes.. Goes back to Teddy Roosevelt. Truth be told – even though they used to send out pirates to harass others and used to attack Korea – much if Japanese society comes from China off shoots – especially during Tang Dynasty. After the Indutrial Revolution started China refused to learn from the west – while Japan was glad to be the understudy. Well until she turned on the west the same way she turned on China – and attacked Russia… Then a few decades later – the US directly.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  258. @Showmethereal

    The most significant actual difference, I feel and one that definitely has significant consequences in terms of development was that Japan was significantly more warlike and thus elevated a warrior class instead of a scholar class. This has significant, and I think, positive alterations to the overall ethos that to some extent lasts to this day.

    Japan essentially developed the civilization tools for managing a relatively small population against hostile threats and at times, incessant warfare. China had very different challenges and overwhelmingly focused on internal management of a very large population with indifferent communication via distances.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @GammaRay
  259. AaronB says:
    @GammaRay

    This strikes me as vastly overstating the case.

    The similarity between the Chinese and the Japanese is about the same as the English and the Italians. To an Asian, they might seem quite similar, but in fact the “flavor” is quite different. Even though they do come from a common civilization.

    The Japanese look and “feel” significantly different than the Chinese. I can only assume you have not spent much time in one of those countries so have not been able to experience it your self.

    Your attitude is like an Asian looking at Italy and England from a distance and seeing only the large picture. The more time you spend in different parts of Asia, the more concrete your view, the more each place seems different. Korea also seems completely different from Japan and China.

    Of course, there is a common civilizational ground there, and at a certain level of magnification, they can appear quite similar. Buddhism, Chan/Zen, Taoism, etc.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @Showmethereal
  260. Anon[112] • Disclaimer says:

    I’d add that the number of Chinese students in US Universities has been going way up for quite some time now.

    http://oncenturyavenue.org/2016/02/the-diaspora-of-chinese-college-students/

    There are 4 times more Chinese students in US universities now than there were in 2005.

    I’d also add that the immigration rates of Chinese people are still rather high. None of this really discounts Derb’s main points, though.

  261. @Anon

    Here is median household income accounting for the fact that the size of an median household has collapsed dramatically in recent years, as there are more single people than ever.
    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA672N
    Remember, this masks compositional effects for massive immigration, and the fast growth of the Black population with fertility, just recently collapsed. Note that family income stagnated during the 2000s, even though productivity growth was on par with the 90s. And of course, the 50s and 60s real median family income grew even faster without those compositional effects of immigration and Black population growth.
    My guess is that Chinese and White families in the US have a real family median income of around 90k, with both having median household incomes in the 75k range. Other Asians do even better, Indians and Filipinos I think have a median household income of 110k and 95k, so their family income must be even higher.
    Real Family income in China is around 15k, but Median household size in China is much bigger than America’s. It is 3.0, where in America its around 2.0 nowadays.
    So the median Chinese in America is almost 5-6 times richer than the median Chinese back in China, with them having 50k more per person.
    So there is an even bigger incentive to come to United States, especially since Hispanic immigration has collapsed in recent years.

  262. Rahan says:

    The difference between the Chinese and the Japanese, is basically identical to the difference between the Russians and the Germans.

    Japan=Germany
    China=Russia

    This is in the sense of who is the “top tier Aryan genius” and who is “the lowly Asiatic barbarian”.
    It all depends on the point of view and on context.

    For a time it was fashionable to view Germans as “cool” and Russians as “cucks”. Today it’s the opposite. In reality, however, both Germany and Russia have their pros and cons and there’s a looming drift of Berlin-Moscow-Tehran-Beijing axis taking place by the middle of the 21st century.

    Whereas Tokyo will likely be part of the “oceanic civilizations axis” of London-Washington-Tokyo-Jakarta. With, unless something dramatic happens, Israel still somehow being part of that, and India doing a balancing act.

    Furthermore, since the West stopped “burning brightly” circa 1995, and has been living off accumulated fat ever since, in another generation this heritage will be burned through, and the world will settle into a global Neo-Middle Ages Pax Economicum with military and technological equality, without global wars and genocides, possibly excluding Africa.

    That’s until either a Singularity, or a Butlerian Jihad occur.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  263. GammaRay says:
    @Showmethereal

    Here are some choice quotes about the japanese from the link that the poster provided above:

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/the-japanese-according-to-the-european-reports-fro-t31457.html

    Although two men may be deadly enemies, they will both smile at each other and neither will fail to perform any of their customary courtesies towards the other. Their conduct in such cases is beyond both belief and understanding; things reach such a pass that when they are most determined to take revenge and kill somebody, they show him much affection and familiarity, laughing and joking with him. Seizing their chance when he is completely off his guard, they draw their swords, which are sharp as razors, and so attack him that generally he is killed by the first or second blow. Then they replace their swords quietly and calmly as if nothing had happened and do not give the slightest indication of passion or anger either by word of mouth or change of expression.

    And in particular when they wish to kill a person by treachery (a strategem often employed to avoid many deaths), they put on a great pretence by entertaining him with every sign of love and joy – and then in the middle of it all, off comes his head.

    On the other hand, they are the most false and treacherous people of any known in the world; for from childhood they are taught never to reveal their hearts, and they regard this as prudence and the contrary as folly, to such a degree that those who lightly reveal their mind are looked upon as nitwits, and are contemptuosly termed single-hearted men. Even fathers and sons never reveal their true thoughts to each other, because there can be no mutual confidence between them in word or deed; for when they are most determined to do evil to someone, the more outward compliments they pay him. Thus when they wish to kill somebody, just when they are about to do so, they show him more politeness and kind words, in order the better to effect their intention; and in truth they cannot live with one another in any other way.

    I find these quotes interesting because another common theme that I find amongst alt-righters is that they believe that japan is best buddies with the US (and as an extension the west overall) in spite of the violent and humiliating (to the japanese) genesis of the “friendship” between these two countries. Well, it goes without saying that clear, objective thought has never been a strong point of the alt-right, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the alt-right genuinely thinks that the japanese love the US and sees them as a real friend. Im not saying this might not actually be the case, but I’m highly, highly doubtful of it. Given what I know of the japanese, and my own impressions of them; I think the japanese are basically cowed right now and are suffering from a multi-generational form of stockholm syndrome, they’re not really in any position to show anything but “goodwill” and “friendliness” to the US, and any attempt from them to demonstrate resolve, resistance or strength to the US will just result in them being swatted down again and being openly humiliated even more than they already are. Do you really think that a people as strong and proud as the japanese are really going to take their humiliating defeat and occupation by the US laying down? In my opinion they are just biding their time, whether they themselves even realize this yet or not.

    Without digressing any further though, my primary point is that keeping the above quotes in mind, I would be very skeptical indeed of how the japanese may actually feel towards the US. In my opinion, here is how things will probably play out in the future in the absence of any black swan events:

    1. US continues to fall and lose power
    2. China becomes the dominant world power
    3. Japan gradually escapes from a weakening US’s control and makes amends with China
    4. With China’s blessing, Japan works to humiliate a weakened US in any way possible

    I know some people reading this are thinking that japan hates china and thus this would make any kind of alliance between japan and china impossible, however we need to consider who does japan actually hate more, china or the US? Currently, as I said above, we don’t really know how japan actually feels about the US because they’re not in any position to demonstrate their true feelings regarding the matter, therefore we don’t actually know how they feel with regards to whom they hate more (china or the US). Given the chance, would the japanese want to get revenge on the US over WW2 and the subsequent decades long occupation? I think its completely plausible

    I want to add that im skeptical of alt-right claims that japan absolutely hates china; in my opinion this is projection on behalf of the alt-right themselves and their own feelings regarding china. I think the reality of how japan feels about china (and vice versa) is probably more nuanced. Im sure their might be some antipathy from the japanese towards the chinese, but I don’t know to what degree this organically exists and to what degree it is simply a sentiment that is covertly stoked by the US. Im definitely not saying that japan loves china or anything like that, but all I’m saying is that im skeptical of the alt-right claiming that the japanese absolutely hate the chinese. I think the reality of the situation is basically unknown right now, but I would definitely not rule out a sino-japanese alliance in the future.

  264. GammaRay says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I actually have a theory regarding the japanese, their warlike tendencies and the aftermath of WW2. Basically my understanding of historical japanese society was that there was a strictly delineated peasant class and warrior class; due to there being two sections of society, the “warrior” genes accumulated mostly in the warrior class and were not evenly distributed throughout society overall. As a result of this particular social arrangement, there arose a distinct “brave fraction” (similar to the smart fraction idea). In the absence of any large scale traumatic war, this really isn’t a problem, however in the event of something extremely destructive like WW2 where millions of men are dying then you can get major genetic disruptions where the brave fraction gets potentially wiped out. What’s more, if you throw things like “bushido” ideology into the mix then its all but assured that the brave fraction will get significantly culled.

    You have to think of it this way; during WW2, given what we know of japanese society, it probably would have been a badge of honor to go and bravely fight for your country and the emperor (I know all men got drafted, but the brave fraction would go willingly and wouldn’t care about subsequently dying). I can’t imagine any circumstances under which a large proportion of the brave fraction would have been able to ignore their own biological impulses and try to willingly avoid combat. I imagine that most of the stories of the bravery and suicidal fanaticism that we hear about japanese soldiers dying during WW2 was probably the brave fraction being brave (and then dying). Anyways as a result of the brave fraction being culled, I think this goes a long way towards explaining why modern japanese men are so “beta”, maybe all the alpha japanese males got killed, or “banzai”ed. Furthermore, we might also want to consider how the death of the brave fraction may have impacted western countries as well as a result of WW1, WW2, etc. This could go a long way towards explaining current social phenomena

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  265. GammaRay says:
    @AaronB

    This strikes me as vastly overstating the case.

    Except I never overstated the case. I clearly claimed that the chinese and japanese do have differences, but that these differences are purposely overstated by the alt-right. If you think that I have “vastly” overstated the case then show exactly where I have done so, provide quotations to support this.

    The Japanese look and “feel” significantly different than the Chinese. I can only assume you have not spent much time in one of those countries so have not been able to experience it your self.

    I never claimed that the japanese and chinese are the same. Go back and read everything I wrote. You assume many things and usually you’re wrong.

  266. @Anon

    It is not just US universities – Chinese students are going around the world more and more. So are the tourists. Why? They caj afford to. Then think about this… China is slightly smaller than the US 50 states but has over 4x as many people. Less than 10 percent of Chinese students go abroad. And of those 80 percent return to China. Indian students are about where Chinese students were 20 to 30 years ago.. Without much opportunity for good wages – Indian students often dont go back. In fact there is an increase in Indian students studying in China now (western news doesnt report it but China is second now – on the same level with Britain for receiving the most international students – behind only the US).
    It seems like a lot to you because there are so many Chinese humans on the planet. South Korean students go abroad at a higher rate than Chinese. Just as above some troll was talking about why there are more Chinese than Japanese Americans. When a thinking person realizes China is 10x the population of Japan the proportion of Japanese Americans is actually higher. But biased people are not really interested in facts.. Only enforcing their own bias.

  267. @AaronB

    Of course China and Korea and Japan are different. The argument by the troll above was that Japanese were “better” than Chinese. All the things you listed are things that flowed from China into Korea and Japan. You use the word “common” but its not really reality. There was a one way flow for the most part until the industrial revolution. Of course things became localized – which accounts for the differences.
    Buddhism is a good example. Buddhism left Nepal and spread. China created its Zen version and the back then Tibetan Empire created their own form. All very very different. But the Buddhism in Korea in Japan is Chinese Zen Buddhism. Not the original Nepal nor Tibetan versions. Confucian philosophy has had huge influence on Japan and Korea. Farming techniques – civil service society (most westerners have no clue the idea of a civil service exam ismfrom China and adapted in the west) – architecture – tea ceremonies and culture – martial arts (Karate was formed in Okinawa – then Ryuku – based on Chinese martial arts) – literary styles and even Banzai trees. Flowed from China into Korea and Japan. So yes they are different localization but to say they share “common” things is not really a good description. It was taught by China to Korea and Japan. Thats i think the point Gamma was making. The alt right idea is to dehumanize the Chinese and elevate Japan and Korea is just plain stupid when measured against history…. China has the longest “continual” society. It has gone up and down obviously mmore than any other group by virtue of that. The decay of the Qing and then the inefficiency kf communism are convenient to the alt right but it again defies history. Even in contemporary times – the Chinese diaspora of 50 million controlled an economy the size relative to European countries of the same size. Aside from Singapore – Hong Kong – Taiwan they were also the wealthiest people in countries where they were minorities such as Philippines – Malaysia – Indonesia – Thailand- and that is in spite of their often brutal treatment – due to wealth generation. It is those people who put up around 80 perccent of the capital to industrialize China — NOT the west as is falsely told nowadays. The next largest group of funds then came from Japan ane Korea actually. Which makes the whole thing go full circle I guess…

    • Replies: @AaronB
  268. Anonymous[719] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rahan

    You see Jakarta being part of an axis that matters? How? They’re overpopulated, undermotivated, and squandering their raw resources with nothing to show for it.

  269. AaronB says:
    @Showmethereal

    I think you’re basically correct here.

    I would only say that today, Japan is culturally superior to China, and that China is a fairly degraded place.

    I wouldn’t say this was always true or will always be true.

    Science may have started in Italy with Galileo etc, but after a while it became better practiced in England.

    Chan Buddhism – my favourite – may have started in China and many of the best masters are Chinese, but today, it’s flavor and atmosphere, its mentality and culture, is far better appreciated in Japan and far more influential there.

    If you want to catch the ghost of an echo of Tang dynasty China, go to Japan today, not China.

    Probably for the past three centuries or so the Japanese have had a superior culture to China – even if it originally came from China.

    The important thing to note is that China now is Westernizing, a necessarily harsh and charmless process, and that when Japan was Westernizing and China remained pleasantly Eastern, the roles were at least somewhat reversed, and many Westerners found China superior.

    Moreover, Japan has a warrior culture that is more sympathetic and familiar to Westerners and will thus naturally predispose them towards the Japanese. Certain aspects of the Japanese temperament seem more familiar.

    Finally, the Japanese have excelled at industry and technology to an impressive extent that the Chinese have not yet equalled, giving them an aura of superiority that all the money in the world made from manufacturing cannot match.

    Where the alt right errs is in seeing this as eternal and immutable. Tang dynasty China was clearly a more interesting and creative place than Japan, and I would have infinitely preferred to visit China at the time. Today, China bores me but I love visiting Japan. In the future? Who knows. Nothing stays the same.

    • LOL: d dan
    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  270. @GammaRay

    Its possible but I’m usually wary of quick and pat explanations without any real metrics to back them up. There’s certain a vast social trauma in Japan from WW2, though that seems to have gradually diluted out as of late so it seems more social than anything.

  271. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    I’ve only come across a few excerpts of the Jesuits’ observations in Japan and China.

    On Japan, they were impressed with Japanese openness to new ideas. That they worked very hard and very well in teams. The cities were very clean and safe – women could walk unescorted at night. Their ability to absorb new technology. As an example, the Portuguese arrived with guns. The Japanese had never seen guns before. They saw their usefulness and started manufacturing their own and at better quality than what the Portuguese could.

    Fast forward to the 20th century. Same thing. I have spent time in Japan. Women can walk anywhere day or night unmolested. Every tiny noodle shop is spotlessly clean. The trains are on time within seconds.

    On China, the Jesuits saw a haughtiness from the Chinese that they could possibly learn anything from the West- even though the Jesuits were much more educated in science than the Chinese. Plus a lot of corruption and theft.

    Fast forward I’ve never been to China but I have been around Chinese immigrants. Stealing and lying is just second nature to a lot , though not all, of them. Even the double-digit IQ ones somehow think they are smarter than Westerners.

    That book you suggested seems very interesting . I’m going to try to track it down. I admit I should get a more nuanced view on the subject

    • Troll: d dan
  272. Rahan says:

    @Disclaimer

    Indonesia is indeed “overpopulated and undermotivated squanderers”, but so are India and Brazil. That’s exactly the level of a third-tier big player of the 21st century.
    And anyway, when I said “Berlin”, this was a stand-in for “the EU” and when I said “Jakarta”, this was a stand-in for ASEAN, as in the whole Indo-Chinese belt of Myanmar+Laos+Cambodia+Vietnam+Thailand+Indonesia+Malaysia+Manila.
    Sorry I didn’t make that clearer.
    In my opinion ASEAN is going to become a sort of “Asia-Pacific EU” or “Southern Eurasian Union”, which will be the equivalent of India or Brazil in terms of economy and tech.

  273. @GammaRay

    My hope – as the paradigm shifts that more peaceful relations could occur – but it all depends. You still have extreme right wing figures in Japan (including peers of PM Abe) who still look down on South Korea and China and think the only thing wrong with what happened in the first half of the 20th century was that Japan lost. We shall see what becomes of the younger generation.

  274. @AaronB

    Science didnt start with Galileo. The scientific method began in what we now call the middle east. But I digress.
    I dont think Japan has westernized too much. There has been some “Americanization”. Pop music – fashion – baseball. Other than that they are still pretty much Asian. China the same thing but swap basketball for baseball.
    As to science and tech. Japan’s own Nikkei noted that in terms of weight of scientific research China has firmly passed Japan and is number two to the United States. Again thats a Japanese publication. So how do get your idea? That is just accredited research papers and didnt take account In terms of patents and R&D for which China has also passed Japan.
    But again the argument was about race rather than nation. As others had noted Singapore and Taiwan very much held the torch for the Chinese race in terms of science and technology since WW2 while the mainland was struggling with its experiment with communism.

  275. @GammaRay

    Came across this article. It touches a lot on how Japanese society learned from China down to the writing system. The author notes that Korea seems more willing to accept the reality of China being big brother again. The author notes in Japan they are less willing – even as they seek to shake off US shackles. An interesting read.

    https://palladiummag.com/2019/04/06/japan-is-reinventing-itself-as-china-surges-and-american-power-declines/

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @GammaRay
  276. Erebus says:
    @Showmethereal

    Came across this article.

    Much thanks for passing it on. It is indeed worth reading, as is much else on the site.

  277. GammaRay says:
    @Showmethereal

    That’s a really interesting site, I’ll have to read more of the articles on it. That being said, since im not really familiar with that site (or the author for that matter), im not really sure about their political leanings and how this may bias what they’re writing. Putting that aside, I think that with regards to japan; regardless of what abe may openly say, I still think he’s an american asset at the end of the day. The US controls everything that happens politically in japan, abe wouldn’t be allowed to be the prime minister of japan if he wasn’t on the same page as the US. Keeping this in mind, im highly skeptical of anything that abe says regarding becoming more independent of the US.

    More important is the fact that due to the US covertly controlling the domestic politics of japan its impossible for a pro-china party to gain serious traction. Due to this we’re seeing a skewed and inorganic political reality in japan right now; its a big question mark how japan really feels about anything politically as long as its under US control. I also think its pertinent to add that according to my own perception, japanese “nationalism” only became a hot topic issue once china began to significantly rise over the past decade or two. My reading of this situation is that basically at this point in time, japanese far-right nationalism serves US interests as a useful counter-weight to growing chinese power, as a result of this Japan’s US handlers have loosened the leash on abe a little bit and allowed him to stoke nationalistic desires in japan.

    On this tangent, I have always thought that abe’s version of japanese far-right nationalism was an absurd and sad charade. On what planet can one claim to be a true nationalist while being buddy buddy with the very country that defeated you, occupied you (and continues to do so) and has cucked you in every possible way. Any true japanese nationalist worth his salt has to be resolutely anti-american in terms of rejecting US vasselhood. Japanese far-right “nationalists” bitch more about the chinese than the country that is actually militarily occupying them. Its the most sad and pathetic thing I have ever seen. For this reason, I’m highly skeptical of the japanese far-right “nationalists”. To me they just look like US sponsored actors.

    TLDR as long as the US is covertly calling the shots politically in japan then we won’t know how they truly feel. In the current political environment in japan, it would be very difficult for a strongly pro-china reconciliation party to get established due to US interference even though this might actually reflect the will of many japanese people

    • Agree: Vidi
    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Showmethereal
  278. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @GammaRay

    it would be very difficult for a strongly pro-china reconciliation party to get established

    Where would the “re” in reconciliation come from? Japan and China have been geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests for many hundreds of years now.

    Japanese far-right “nationalists” bitch more about the chinese than the country that is actually militarily occupying them. Its the most sad and pathetic thing I have ever seen.

    Oh please…

    Meanwhile Chinese bitch about Japanese more than any other country, and their own authoritarian government never misses an opportunity to stoke anti-Japanese sentiment, including with 24/7 propaganda movies. I was in Japan in 2012 and saw the news clips of Chinese people chimping-out like monkeys over the Senkaku Islands; reacting before having all of the facts on the ground. This shocked more than a few people in Japan, and was one of the factors behind the conservative LDP (Abe) winning the 2012 election. I’ve also witnessed the ease with which Chinese steal IP from partnered Japanese companies before throwing the Japanese company to the curb after getting what they wanted. If China really wants “reconciliation” with Japan, then they certainly aren’t showing it. They are going to have to improve their behavior going forward.

    • Disagree: Vidi
  279. GammaRay says:
    @anonymous

    Where would the “re” in reconciliation come from? Japan and China have been geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests for many hundreds of years now.

    Why be disingenuous and try to argue based on semantics? its quite obvious what reconciliation means in this context. Japan invaded china in the first AND second sino-japanese wars that happened in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Surely you were aware of this? Its obvious to me that you’re purposely trying to glide over pertinent facts and muddy the waters in order to feed your own bias. Its not lost on me what you’re trying to do.

    China and japan have a complicated history yes, but this doesn’t preclude the possibility of them working together someday, which I know is something that the alt-right hate, who would much rather sow discord and division.

    Japanese far-right “nationalists” bitch more about the chinese than the country that is actually militarily occupying them. Its the most sad and pathetic thing I have ever seen.

    Oh please…

    Meanwhile Chinese bitch about Japanese more than any other country, and their own authoritarian government never misses an opportunity to stoke anti-Japanese sentiment, including with 24/7 propaganda movies. I was in Japan in 2012 and saw the news clips of Chinese people chimping-out like monkeys over the Senkaku Islands; reacting before having all of the facts on the ground. This shocked more than a few people in Japan, and was one of the factors behind the conservative LDP (Abe) winning the 2012 election. I’ve also witnessed the ease with which Chinese steal IP from partnered Japanese companies before throwing the Japanese company to the curb after getting what they wanted. If China really wants “reconciliation” with Japan, then they certainly aren’t showing it. They are going to have to improve their behavior going forward

    Why try to deflect? Is what I said true or not? Everything you said regarding china may or may not be true, but we’re not having that conversation are we? In this context, we’re discussing the US role in subverting domestic japanese politics, no more and no less. From what I’ve seen, japanese far-right “nationalists” are comically cozy with the true invaders in their country (americans) while they act like vicious attack dogs towards their historical neighbor china, cui bono? As an occupied country, Japan cannot truly act in its true self-interest, whatever that is. The political reality we are seeing in japan is distorted right now due to US interference, how japan would be politically without this interference is basically unknown at this point.

    With regards to china role in this, I think the chinese government is well aware that japan is a puppet state and acts accordingly towards them; were japan not a puppet state then I think the chinese government would take a dramatically different approach towards japan. That’s my conjecture anyways. In the upcoming decades as US power decays and japan becomes a free agent we will see if there is truth to this or not. It goes without saying though that the US absolutely benefits from any strife and discord that happens in the region. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the US was involved behind the scenes in the whole senkaku debacle. Its telling that the US chose to take a public (and aggressive) stance on the matter:

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2012/12/01/national/u-s-senate-passes-senkaku-backing/

    As I said before, the US is overly and covertly distorting the true political reality on the ground in japan, we have no idea how the japanese would act in the absence of this coercive force.

    • Agree: d dan, Vidi
    • Replies: @anonymous
  280. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @GammaRay

    Japan invaded china in the first AND second sino-japanese wars that happened in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Surely you were aware of this?

    That is literally my point: geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests

    You are the one going on about the establishment of a “strongly pro-China party”. That’s laughable, imo. Where is China’s strongly pro-Japan party?

    Its obvious to me that you’re purposely trying to glide over pertinent facts and muddy the waters in order to feed your own bias. Its not lost on me what you’re trying to do.

    Lmao.. Paranoid projection maybe? Perhaps you can be mature enough to argue against stuff I actually say?

    China and japan have a complicated history yes, but this doesn’t preclude the possibility of them working together someday,

    When did I say it does? This is what I and everyone in Asia ultimately wants as well.

    From what I’ve seen,

    Seen from where?

    japanese far-right “nationalists” are comically cozy with the true invaders in their country (americans)

    Source please? I’ve never heard of the far right (Nippon Kaigi) getting “cozy” with the US. It sounds counterintuitive, considering Nippon Kaigi is pro remilitarization, and wants to take back all of their disputed territories by force and reintroduce state shinto. Whereas the US had a tissy fit when Abe visited Yasukuni Shine in 2013, which is definitely not compatible with Nippon Kaigi’s vision.

    while they act like vicious attack dogs towards their historical neighbor china,

    Meanwhile the Chinese act like vicious attack dogs towards their historical neighbor Japan? Still going on with the hypocrisy?

    Its telling that the US chose to take a public (and aggressive) stance on the matter:

    Oh brother… Here’s America’s aggressive stance on the matter. Feel free to point out the aggressive parts:

    The amendment, offered by Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat, states U.S. opposition to any efforts to coerce, threaten to use force or use force to resolve territorial issues. It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.

    “The peaceful settlement of territorial and jurisdictional disputes in the East China Sea requires the exercise of self-restraint by all parties in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and destabilize the region, and differences should be handled in a constructive manner consistent with universally recognized principles of customary international law,” the amendment says.

    You start off by accusing me muddying water, being disingenuous, gliding over facts, and feeding bias. And now you are blantantly lying to feed your own point. Are you sure you’re not the one muddying waters?

    Personally, I don’t have any concrete idea as to how much control US has over Japanese internal politics. However, your comments look like speculation on top of more speculation, and I suspect that you are drastically overestimating it. This could be better cleared up if you would just share the source of you information regarding all of this. If your source is in Japanese that is fine for me as well.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
  281. @anonymous

    Are you kidding? Japan has been used as a fulcrum against mainland China by the US since the communists ran the nationalists off. The US used Japan to point nukes at China. Are the Chinese supposed to sit there and say “yes master”?

    Due to that fact of Japanese subjugation to US policy – China and Korea never got the full restitution from Japan that European countries got from Germany. Its not just China that still doesnt trust Japan. Neither does South Korea. In fact anti Japanese sentiment is stronger in South Korea than China. You seriously dont know that??
    As to IP theft. Ahhh – how quickly we forget. The US stole greatly from the British and Germans during US developmemt in the Industrial Revolution. Then in the 70’s and 80’s Japan was always accused of stealing from the US. In case you didnt know – Japanese companies got the ZTE treatment in the 80’s and thats why Japan lost its then lead in semiconductor manufacturing. Your bias blinds you to history. In any event just like those previous examples – in many ways Chinese companies have caughht up to and in other ways passed Japanese companies. Again you can look that up yourself in Nikkei.

    As to the Diayou/Senkaku islands…. That was again a US sham. Japanese was supposed to give up all territory she took from China. Along with the Spratly and Paracel islands – she had taken Diayou around the same time she took Taiwan. You talk about Chinese propaganda – but the mainland authorities actually suppressed the anti Japanese protests over what Japan did by “nationalizing” Diayou/Senkaku. M3anwhile in Hong Kong and Taiwan the protests continued. In fact private citizens sailed from Taiwan and Hong Kong sailed to those islands in protests. Taiwan and Hong Kong are pro US – so why do you think those people were angry???? All of Asia re.embers what Japan did. They only tolerate the lack of full justice with Japan becaUse it is a US vassal.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  282. @GammaRay

    Yes overall what you say is true. Its harx to tell what real Japanese sentiment will be. Look up the Nippon Kaigi that Abe is friends with. Those guys are still made Japan lost. If they had their way – japan would not take orders from the US. They are just very crafty. An infamous case a couple of years ago was when one of that ilk left a meeting in Taiwan and was caught on camera kicking a statue of a “comfort woman” commemorating Japanese aggression.
    But the young generation it will be interesting to see how they look at things going forward. Not juat with China – but also South Korea. Japanese school books edit a lot of the history. So many of the young dont realize how the dynamics got to where they are.

  283. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @Showmethereal

    You seriously dont know that??

    I do, but it is barely tangential to any point I made. Also afaik, Japan had normalization agreements with South Korea (1965) and China (1972). China renounced war reparations, and Japan payed $800 million to South Korea.

    Also, your point about South Korea feuding with Japan only reinforces my own point about the limits of US influence among its Asian allies.

    Chinese companies have caughht up to and in other ways passed Japanese companies. Again you can look that up yourself in Nikkei.

    No need to. I believe you, and I think it is great. Hopefully Chinese companies will tone down their IP theft from now on.

    took from China

    Debatable. Chinese had marked them on maps, but when Japan found them, they were uninhabitated, and there was nothing on them to explicitly suggest that they were Chinese owned. Also, the US administered the islands until 1972 as a part of the Ryuku Islands, as opposed to giving it to the ROC. China didn’t hardly care about the islands until the oil reserves were discovered there. I don’t really care about the Islands one way or another, and I suspect that they will end up with China within the next few decades anyway. Hopefully a peaceful resolution will eventually be found.

    but the mainland authorities actually suppressed the anti Japanese protests over what Japan did by “nationalizing” Diayou/Senkaku.

    Yeah…after the riots had gone on for several days, and the rioters were getting out of hand and causing too much destruction even for the CCP. Prior to that, they were happy to let them continue, despite public protesting being restricted in China.

    And then they were somehow surprised that Abe won the election three months later. Although, it is much better for China that Abe won instead of Shintaro Ishihara and his restoration party, as they garnered the 2nd most votes in the election. Shintaro Ishihara (who was very popular at the time) is far more anti-China than Abe is, and is very anti-US as well, funnily enough.

    In fact, I recall Ishihara – who was the governor of Tokyo at the time – was moving to purchase the islands from its private owner in order to use them to intentionally provoke and piss off China. This prompted the Japanese government to step in and purchase the islands, and stop Ishihara from stirring up tensions in the region. But all of that was lost on the Chinese, who then preceded to act like animals instead of taking time to calmly review the situation.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
    , @d dan
  284. @anonymous

    Japan and China have been geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests for many hundreds of years now.

    A neat trick when the Meiji Restoration hasn’t even been two hundred years ago.

    That’s pretty much nonsense. Japan didn’t really have the capability to be a “geopolitical rival” to anyone for most of her history, that would require a centralized government and that’s something that she didn’t have. The closest argument to that was that the Japanese invasion of Korea led them to conflict with Ming troops, but given the fact that the Ming swung the war against them, it reinforced their attitude to see the Chinese as powerful and thus worthwhile.

    There’s a lot of hostility these days, of course, but the actual varying flow of mutual dislike, secret admiration, and borrowing from each other will probably continue as it was before.There’s a tendency for the Chinese to look down upon smaller Asian nations, and Japan has always seethed about that historically.

    That’s seems likely to happen again. And as before, the Japanese always have ended up ultimately admiring and trying to borrow from the culture of whoever is strong.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Showmethereal
  285. anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    that would require a centralized government and that’s something that she didn’t have.

    Was a centralized government necessary to counter the Mongol invasion in 1281 when Yuan was trying to force Japan to be a vassal?

    It reinforced their attitude to see the Chinese as powerful and thus worthwhile.

    Maybe? But what source are you basing this off of?

    João Rodrigues, had a different impression (see comment #258):

    As the Japanese have been brought up here at the end of the world without knowing or being in contact with anybody save the Chinese and Koreans, they naturally have a high opinion of themselves and of their nation. They accordingly have a haughty and proud spirit, and however much they see or hear about other nations, they always think that their country is the best, especially as regards their weapons and their use in war. They have an intrepid and bold spirit, and they believe that nobody in the whole world equals them in this respect and that all are inferior to them. For regarding military matters they have so far had experience of fighting only among themselves in their own kingdom (for it was involved in continuous civil wars and disturbances) and with the Chinese and the Koreans, against whom they have always carried the day with ease. They are so punctilious and meticulous that they do not hesitate to lay down their lives on a single point of honour, and they are equally ready to die for the man whose service and patronage they have entered.

    Luís Fróis:

    So proud are the Japanese that they consider themselves the first in the world, about which they have fabricated many laughable tales. The Japanese will not by any manner or means allow to or agree that they are related to the Chinese since they hold the Chinese to be much inferior to themselves. So much so, that the worst insult that can be made to any of them is to call him a Chinese, and in the same manner the Chinese consider themselves so much superior that the greatest affront which can be given to them is to call them Japanese.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  286. GammaRay says:
    @anonymous

    That is literally my point: geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests

    No its not. You clearly missed the point in your previous response or you were arguing in bad faith to begin with. This is my original statement:

    TLDR as long as the US is covertly calling the shots politically in japan then we won’t know how they truly feel. In the current political environment in japan, it would be very difficult for a strongly pro-china reconciliation party to get established due to US interference even though this might actually reflect the will of many japanese people

    The historical context (the second sino-japanese war) that I’m referring to reconciliation happening within is unmistakable. This is what you wrote in response:

    Where would the “re” in reconciliation come from? Japan and China have been geopolitical rivals with conflicting interests for many hundreds of years now.

    Its clear that you misunderstood the point or you were being purposely dense.

    You are the one going on about the establishment of a “strongly pro-China party”. That’s laughable, imo. Where is China’s strongly pro-Japan party?

    Why not stay on topic? The primary point of discussion here is domestic japanese politics and the impact that US inteference has on them. Whether or not china has a pro-japan party has nothing to do with this particular discussion.

    Lmao.. Paranoid projection maybe? Perhaps you can be mature enough to argue against stuff I actually say?

    Why should I? There was a debate going on before you entered the conversation. You chose to enter this pre-existing debate of your own free will. We are currently discussing the influence that the US has on domestic japanese politics; its clear that you want to talk about the role that china plays with regards to geopolitics in the far east but that’s not the topic of this conversation. Since you chose to pro-actively enter this conversation, you should stay on topic instead of trying to derail the conversation.

    Source please? I’ve never heard of the far right (Nippon Kaigi) getting “cozy” with the US. It sounds counterintuitive, considering Nippon Kaigi is pro remilitarization, and wants to take back all of their disputed territories by force and reintroduce state shinto. Whereas the US had a tissy fit when Abe visited Yasukuni Shine in 2013, which is definitely not compatible with Nippon Kaigi’s vision.

    Reread through my responses, here is the proper context for my reference to japanese far-right “nationalists”:

    On this tangent, I have always thought that abe’s version of japanese far-right nationalism was an absurd and sad charade. On what planet can one claim to be a true nationalist while being buddy buddy with the very country that defeated you, occupied you (and continues to do so) and has cucked you in every possible way.

    I think that abe’s version of japanese far-right “nationalism” is absurd, any kind of japanese far-right nationalism that is associated with abe isn’t really nationalism at all since abe is very cozy indeed with the US. There’s nothing counterintuitive about japan’s far-right being cozy with the US. The US wants japan to remilitarize so that it can help contain china, for this it uses abe to further its agenda. If the japanese far right wants to remilitarize but ultimately do washington’s bidding then that makes them incredibly cucked (If the japanese far-right were true nationalists then they would drag their feet and ironically support pacificism as a way to passive-aggressively screw over the US’s china containment plan). Incidentally abe is also a “special adviser” to the nippon kaigi.

    https://www.economist.com/asia/2015/06/04/right-side-up

    Meanwhile the Chinese act like vicious attack dogs towards their historical neighbor Japan? Still going on with the hypocrisy?

    Your point doesn’t make any sense because youre taking what I originally said completely out of context. Here is my original quote:

    “From what I’ve seen, japanese far-right “nationalists” are comically cozy with the true invaders in their country (americans) while they act like vicious attack dogs towards their historical neighbor china, cui bono?”

    You’re trying to suggest that I’m making a stand alone insult against the japanese far-right nationalists as vicious attack dogs but you omitted the relevant preceding clause which makes it clear that my reference to them as attack dogs is meant to be juxtaposed with the fact that they are “comically cozy” with the true invaders in their country (the US) and then finally asking “who benefits?”. In other words, you’re completely missing the larger point. I’m not surprised that you missed the point though, you seem extremely emotionally driven about this topic.

  287. GammaRay says:
    @anonymous

    Oh brother… Here’s America’s aggressive stance on the matter. Feel free to point out the aggressive parts:

    The amendment, offered by Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat, states U.S. opposition to any efforts to coerce, threaten to use force or use force to resolve territorial issues.

    It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.

    “The peaceful settlement of territorial and jurisdictional disputes in the East China Sea requires the exercise of self-restraint by all parties in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and destabilize the region, and differences should be handled in a constructive manner consistent with universally recognized principles of customary international law,” the amendment says.

    According to this, “It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.”

    So if china tries to forcefully take senkaku (some tiny uninhabited islands in china’s own backyard) back then the US (which has nothing to do with it) will step in and (militarily) defend it on behalf of japan. Its a veiled threat, and the aggression is obvious. The US could have chosen to say nothing at all and stay out of it, which would be truly non-aggressive but instead it chose to purposely throw its hat in the ring, pass this amendment and affirm that it would intervene to help japan with regards to the senkaku issue if need be. The fact that the US is proactively and loudly intervening in the situation by passing this amendment while affirming that it would take military action to defend senkaku if necessary qualifies as aggressive. There is no other way to interpret this.

    You start off by accusing me muddying water, being disingenuous, gliding over facts, and feeding bias. And now you are blantantly lying to feed your own point. Are you sure you’re not the one muddying waters?

    LOL, I wonder if you even think before you write out stuff

    Personally, I don’t have any concrete idea as to how much control US has over Japanese internal politics. However, your comments look like speculation on top of more speculation, and I suspect that you are drastically overestimating it. This could be better cleared up if you would just share the source of you information regarding all of this. If your source is in Japanese that is fine for me as well.

    Its very simple, in japan if there is a political candidate that the US doesn’t like then he won’t gain political power, however if he is on the right page then he probably will gain political power. What’s happening in japan is not unique in this regards, the US has done this in other countries too. Its the US’s basic MO.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/

    below is a detailed list of occasions in which the US has overthrown democratically elected leaders of sovereign countries. If the US can do this to sovereign countries, what makes you think it cant do this to its own vassal states?

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-us-has-been-meddling-in-other-countries-elections-for-a-century-it-doesnt-feel-good_n_57983b85e4b02d5d5ed382bd?guccounter=1

    Its pertinent to consider the fate of yukio hatoyama. This article is very informative:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-american-world-empire-japan-as-a-vassal-state/

    Furthermore you need to consider that the dominant, current political paradigm in japan was funded by the CIA:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to-support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html

    For a more comprehensive source of information you can read this:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/42705308?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Guess what political party the CIA helped put into power? That’s right, the LDP. The same LDP that Shinzo Abe belongs to. The same LDP that is supposedly a “nationalist” party. The LDP and the politicians associated with it owe a deep debt to the CIA/US. The US doesn’t always have to use the stick, it can use carrots too, and in many cases it can just rely on native assets that its cultivated throughout the years.

    Keep in mind that the US has a number of tools it can use to coerce and control japan, economically and otherwise, remember the plaza accord? Most importantly is that at the end of the day there are 60,000 US troops stationed in japan as of 2019. The US is in a position to both threaten japan and to also carry out its threats as well. Japan is literally unable to say no if the stakes are high enough for the US. If the US doesn’t want somebody in power in japan then they can arrange for them to be replaced. The US interferes in the domestic politics of all of its other vassal states (and even non-vassal states), why would japan be any different?

    If your source is in Japanese that is fine for me as well.

    so youre a weeb who’s studied japanese and lived in japan for some time and now you have undertaken it as your sacred duty to protect the honor of the japanese and to hate the chinese on their behalf, gotcha. I was wondering why you seemed to be getting so irrationally emotional about this topic.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  288. @Daniel Chieh

    Yeah there are so many false narratives nowadays. You are correct – prior to the Meiji period – the only dispute between China and Japan was when Japan attacked Korea and China helped Korea beat back Japan. As the big brother China was playing the role the US attempts to play between the two little brothers now. Or when the Mongol led Yuan Dynasty wemt to take over Japan but was stopped by typhoons. The rest of the past 1000+ years Japan was busy learning from China. It is amazing how people re-write history now to appease their prejudices.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  289. @anonymous

    The Diayou/Senkaku islands were never inhabitated and are not to this day. So habitation has nothing to do with it. Anyone who lacks prejudice knows the current status is a sleight of hand by the US. The US “administered” the islands after WW2 and in the 1970’s gave the “administration” over to Japan. It was still legally a “disputed territory”. Had the ROC held on to Mainland China – anyone with any honesty knows the US would have given those islands to the ROC – just as it did those in the South China Sea (see the Treaty of Taipei).
    But again you show your prejudice against mainland China. You talk about the Chinese being unreasonable but you really mean the PRC. You completely skipped over the fact that some of the most fervent protests were by the Chinese people of Taiwan (officially ROC) and Hong Kong. Both territories with pro western sensibility. The ROC got mad but they have to sick it up – just as with the issue in the South China Sea.
    Truth be told Okinawa is a sleight of hand too. Had the ROC held mainland China then the Okinawan people probably would have gotten their independence. The Ryuku people didmt want to be a part of Japan. They were like Korea – an independent protectorate of China. China didnt seek to make them part of their territory. But Japan in seeking to dominate Asia took Ryuku and made it Okinawa. The only reason they stayed a part of Japan was so US troops could be based their to threaten the PRC. The people on those islands still resent US troop presence. They even voted by referendum to get rid of bases and were laughed at. So much for “self determination” that is always preached when it relates to Chinese disputed territories.

  290. @anonymous

    Was a centralized government necessary to counter the Mongol invasion in 1281 when Yuan was trying to force Japan to be a vassal?

    Irrelevant since the Japanese perceived them as Mongols, not Chinese and probably yes, if it wasn’t for the good fortune of the kamikaze saving them twice. More importantly, its a simple reality that if you don’t have a centralized government, you don’t really have a country capable of “interests.” Indeed, it could be challenging to even have them consider themselves as one people.

    Before the modern era, for example, Japan could hardly export its culture or influence in any way. Shinto, as a form of animism heavily associated with local landmarks could hardly be passed onto others. Bushido was heavily associated with having a warrior aristocracy in the style of the Japanese samurai, and that wasn’t really exportable to others. Even then, the Japanese were reknown for their swords, but having no real manufacturing infrastructure meant that they were just selling a few of them occasionally.

    You can’t really be “rivals” if you aren’t offering something different. Pretty much the greatest foreign affair that Japan could engage in was the invasion of Korea, which was heavily driven by internal factors and was a pretty obvious example of massive failure in exporting its “culture” at the time, since slaughtering the population led to nigh-eternal hate of the Japanese ever since.

    It should also be noted that Japan was really quite poor, which also stymied their ability to influence or be rivals. Again, the lack of a centralized government impacted this with no equivalency to things like the terrace farms, canals, or other major infrastructural projects in China. Something like the Great Wall would seem mythical to the Japanese(and it did). Indeed, the Japanese were instead really quite infamous for their wakou at the time. Pirates may seem cool now, but during the era, it gave them the reputation of being desperate criminals driven by poverty(and indeed, the wakou were “marginal men”).

    Of course, this is all quite different now. Japan does have significant cultural and manufacturing exports, and greatly resents Chinese expansion into their manufacturing. So they are indeed rivals now. But historically, there was no comparison.

    Maybe? But what source are you basing this off of?

    This is rather ridiculously self-evident:

    Japanese kanji is based on Chinese. Japanese era names were written in classical Chinese. Heian period buildings were made to mimic the Chinese style. Edo neo-Confucianism was formally adopted by Tokugawa shogunate. Samurai diaries from the invasion of Korea write of the sheer shock of dealing with the numbers of Ming soldiers and the impact of artillery, as well as losses versus Chinese strategem. Even the uyoku dantai(ultranationalists) have claimed their credibility as upholding the “accurate” form of Confucianism that China has abandoned. The half-Japanese Zheng Chenggong with his Chinese troops opposed Confucianism, but claimed that the Chinese had been misled and should return to their more glorious philosophies of the Spring and Autumn Era. Etc, etc.

    The narcassim of small difference should not be underestimated. An essential contrast was due to Japanese caste system that placed the warrior class closet to the highest; the Chinese system would warriors close to the lowest. This led to the Chinese to see the Japanese as bloodthirsty and violent, and the Japanese to see the Chinese as cowardly and unmanly. But its not like the Japanese could have denied that the Chinese were fabulously more wealthy, and thus took a lot of cultural influence from China; it would not be until the modern era that the “sick man of Asia” appelation arose, and a large part of it again was due to the Japanese perceving that the Chinese had somehow “squandered” their opportunities.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @anonymous
  291. @Daniel Chieh

    This led to the Chinese to see the Japanese as bloodthirsty and violent, and the Japanese to see the Chinese as cowardly and unmanly.

    An example of this was during the Invasion of Korea – the Japanese despised the Ming tactic of using massed cannon fire and constant night time raids to keep the samurai from sleeping. Since the Japanese had already devastated the countryside, the Ming would also send special forces to destroy foodstocks that the Japanese accumulated. This obviously worked – every single Japanese retreat was a grueling affair, but the Japanese saw this as dishonorable*. They were reinforced in this knowledge that in direct combat, Chinese forces did not stand up in melee battle in equal numbers. Of course, that didn’t matter since the Chinese never tried to fight “fair” and would soon come with more cannons for the artillery barrage.

    However, the Chinese noted that the Japanese would mass slaughter all men in the towns they captured with great disgust. Notably, the Ming did not practice genocide in their invasions: they would assiduously “civilize” and destroy the culture where they roamed(and this is why Vietnam no longer has its own written language), but they did not kill the people with any such vigor.

    Incidentally, Thailand offered to directly attack Japan during the Korean war in order to show fealty to the Ming China(and was denied). Its a kind of example of the sheer amount of influence that China had at the time.

    *This is not too different from the European observation of the Chinese as “skilled at cunning and strategem of war, but without valor.”

  292. @Showmethereal

    I mean, there was plenty of disputes but its not really like these was a single “Japanese policy.” Like the wakou were anything from criminals to being supported by local lords. Even the invasion of Japan was triggered in large part by Toyotomi Hideyoshi’s need to find a purpose to organize the vast numbers of idle samurai after the unification of Japan.

    The failure of the invasion would trigger off another shogunate war within Japan afterward. Tokugawa Ieyas, who did not send any troops to Korea and thus conserved any losses from the adventure, would become the new Shogunate.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  293. d dan says:
    @anonymous

    “Also, your point about South Korea feuding with Japan only reinforces my own point about the limits of US influence among its Asian allies.”

    No, it doesn’t. The current feud between South Korea and Japan only demonstrates the incompetence and indifference of the Trump administration. Both countries had many feuds before. US had always been able to stop them whenever she wanted.

    “This prompted the Japanese government to step in and purchase the islands, and stop Ishihara from stirring up tensions in the region.”

    LOL, you are talking as if the Japanese government intention was purely de-escalating. By purchasing the island, Japanese were actually trying to assert and declare their control of the island to the world.

    “But all of that was lost on the Chinese, …”

    No, it wasn’t. Chinese government wanted to maintain status quo, which was destroyed after the Japanese purchase.

    “… who then preceded to act like animals instead of taking time to calmly review the situation.”

    Sounds about right, the ranting of rabid Chinese hater that acts like animals instead of taking time to objectively review the history.

  294. anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @GammaRay

    So if china tries to forcefully take senkaku (some tiny uninhabited islands in china’s own backyard) back then the US (which has nothing to do with it) will step in and (militarily) defend it on behalf of japan.

    Well, the US is required to aid Japan in defense against incursions into Japanese administered territory, as per Article V of the 1960 security treaty. If the US doesn’t make it clear that they are committed to the defense of Japanese territory, then what use is the US military to the Japanese? The only way that could be viewed as a threat is if the Chinese plan on taking aggressive action over the islands. The rest of the amendment is calling for restraint on both sides.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to-support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html

    Thanks. This is what I was interested in. 🙂

    For the record, the LDP is not “nationalist”. Rather it is essentially Japan’s version of the republican party in the US; just as useless too, if not much more so at times. I’m sure the US has some influence on Japanese politics, but I believe you are vastly overestimating it, especially in regards to the present day, with US power and influence in general waning everywhere. There is simply too much going on in the political arenas of Japan, South Korea, Germany, and other US allies (Australia, Canada, UK) that US influence/control just doesn’t account for. In the case of China-Japan relations, things have somewhat improved in the last couple of years, and I hope they get better of course, but I’m pretty sure the squabbling over territorial disputes will continue.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @Showmethereal
  295. anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    yes, if it wasn’t for the good fortune of the kamikaze saving them twice.

    There was a lot of fighting during the Mongol invasions as well, and it was considered a significant event in Japan thereafter.

    You can’t really be “rivals” if you aren’t offering something different.

    I guess I should clarify. Yes, I Know China didn’t view Japan as a rival or take them seriously for most of their history, apart from the Imjin years. But the quotes from the Portuguese Jesuits suggest that the Japanese viewed themselves as rivals to the Chinese, even to a “laughable” degree. Not to mention the Chinese took jabs at the Japanese as well. It is a trivial point, and I’m mostly taking about the centuries since Hideyoshi, although you could possibly trace it back a bit earlier as well.

    This is rather ridiculously self-evident:

    Kanji use spread in Japan in the 6-8th centuries. Chinese influence during Heian declined precipitously after the Tang dynasty. The neoconfucianism of Edo period originated many centuries earlier when Japanese monks examined texts from 11th and 12th century Chinese confucian scholars and then built upon them over the centuries.

    I think you misunderstood. This was your comment that I was replying to:

    but given the fact that the Ming swung the war against them, it reinforced their attitude to see the Chinese as powerful and thus worthwhile.

    This was 1600, not the Heian/Tang. This is what I what I’m asking about your source.

    But its not like the Japanese could have denied that the Chinese were fabulously more wealthy

    Can you point me to something demonstrating that it was widely acknowledged in Japan that the Chinese were “fabulously more wealthy” than they were within the last 400-500 years?

    Fwiw, Maddison historical data has typically estimated the two at relatively similar per capita gdp for the last 500 years, with China maintaining a somewhat higher per capita gdp until Japan surpassed them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

  296. anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Even the invasion of Japan was triggered in large part by Toyotomi Hideyoshi’s need to find a purpose to organize the vast numbers of idle samurai after the unification of Japan.

    Iirc, he also had larger (obviously unrealistic) goals, such as trying take over China and taking the Philippines from the Spanish.

    the Japanese despised the Ming tactic of using massed cannon fire and constant night time raids to keep the samurai from sleeping.

    Btw, thanks for all of the info. I’ve always found some of the weapons employed by the Chinese and Koreans in the Imjin War, such as the crouching tiger cannons and hwachas, to be quite interesting.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  297. @anonymous

    Can you point me to something demonstrating that it was widely acknowledged in Japan that the Chinese were “fabulously more wealthy” than they were within the last 400-500 years?

    I’m primarily working off Ennin’s writings of the Grand Canal, however, in regards to the renewed Japanese respect note Ieyasu’s repeated proclamations afterward that he had nothing to do with the invasion and that he had, in fact, punished the perpetrators of it. Besides a renewed interest in Neo-Confucianism, the Japanese would repeatedly send envoys in to plead for peaceable relations with Korea and China, including multiple apologies, and even an offer to become a tributary which the Ming ignored – all mentioned by Kenneth Swope’s book on the Imjin War if you’re curious.

    Its simply the nature of things that defeat has a sobering effect. In fact, the Japanese embassy even during the war had some really weird things they said once they felt that things were going south, including that their objectives never involved invading China, that they never intended to engage with the Chinese, etc.

    It would be noted that at all times, even during the war, Japan at least kept the fiction of Chinese supremacy:

    Finally the Ming officials asked: “If Hideyoshi has already pacified Japan’s sixty-six provinces then he should declare himself king. Why does he need investiture from us?”

    Konishi replied that Hideyoshi did not want to be tainted by association with Akechi Mitsuhide, and “Japan, like Korea, receives its ruler’s title from the Celestial Kingdom. This puts the hearts of the people at peace and as everyone recognizes the value of such peace, he [Hideyoshi] is therefore requesting investiture.”

    The court then queried: “Your country already has an emperor who is also called king. We do not know, is the emperor not also the king?” The envoy responded, “The emperor is king, but he was already killed by Oda Nobunaga.”

    • Replies: @anonymous
  298. @anonymous

    Look up the “迅雷銃 rapid thunder bolt gun.” Terribly amusing.

  299. @anonymous

    Its also worthwhile to look at Hideyoshi’s comments as the war dragged on – admittedly, he was getting increasingly distraught with age, but one of the things he said before his death was “My country is poor” along with “What have I done? I have only created a hundred thousand men into ghosts overseas”, “What cursed fate I have, to be born in such a small country.”

    The Japanese soldiery had various opinions of the Ming, but in deed after the Siege of Pyongyang and the subsequent defeats(where their courage could not be questioned – their commanders rode among their men while under artillery fire, extorting them to valor while branding two-handed swords, often dying with them), they ceased to be on the offensive and never really sought to fought the Ming in open, direct battle again. Japanese nationalists put a lot of weight on their victory at the Battle of Byeokjegwan, where they had overwhelming local numerical superiority, but as Turnbull noted, it seems that they actually took as many losses as the Ming – losses that they could ill afford. In the meanwhile, they had a continually disasterous supply situation; partly due to poor naval warfare but also, it oddly seemed like the samurai didn’t really do much logistical calculations at all and assumed that they could pillage what was needed(this is in huge contrast to the detailed receipts we have from Ming forces).

    Words used to describe the Ming from Japanese soldiers included “Heaven’s awe”,”Great Ming”, etc. The Japanese were so disconcerted at one point that Ming soldiers would wear Korean trappings so that the Japanese would be lured to engage them, and in at least one case, actually panicked upon the Ming soldiers discarding their disguises.

    They made one more effort at engagement in the second invasion, and once again were dispersed by cannon fire, and pretty much spent the remainder of the war resisting sieges(quite well, to their credit). One of the stranger things was that they never adopted heavy warships, despite their clear awareness of the advantages it provided. They kept basically trying to fight land battles in the sea.

  300. anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am curious as to why you are citing these passages out of context. You are either doing it intentionally, or (more likely) you are under a misconception. For one thing, Konishi is well regarded as a liar. He was tasked with handing over Hideyoshi’s demands to the Ming, but instead he forged them because he knew Hideyoshi’s demands were ridiculous and that the Ming would never accept them.

    Yiming Ha (UCLA) did a very thorough analysis detailing the 1593-1596 negotiations between Hideyoshi and the Ming. It draws heavily on primary sources (written in Classical Chinese) from China, Korea, and Japan, as well the usual English sources (Swope, Hawley, Turnbull, Berry, Miller, etc).

    The entire is thing is 50+ pages long and it is free to read. I’d recommend at least reading some of the details of the negotiations, covered in pages 14-27, if you are interested.

    https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2jt011ng

    Abstract

    In 1593, the Chinese and Japanese armies fighting in Korea in the Imjin War (1592-1598) settled down and began negotiating for a peaceful solution to end the conflict. Yet the three year long negotiations came to be plagued by deception and misrepresentation made purposely by the negotiators to their respective sovereigns, culminating in the Chinese investiture of Toyotomi Hideyoshi as the vassal King of Japan in 1596, which to the Chinese was considered an honor but was an insult to Hideyoshi himself, who promptly sent his troops back to Korea to renew the invasion. This paper studies the problems faced by the lead negotiators which forced them to rely on deception, focusing on the issue of the Chinese perception of others as uncivilized, the political superstructure that was built around that perception, and how Hideyoshi attempted to challenge the Chinese world order in his approach to diplomacy.

    Some excerpts under “more”:

    [MORE]

    Second, I argue that Hideyoshi’s desire to negotiate with the Ming emperor as an equal rather than a subordinate was a challenge to the Chinese tributary system, and therefore the concept of Chinese superiority.

    Naturally, the Chinese expected Hideyoshi to negotiate as an inferior and to know his place before the Son of Heaven. Hideyoshi’s peace terms were considered a fundamental challenge to the notion of Chinese superiority. Since he had won the war, Hideyoshi naturally wanted the benefits befitting a victor, which included keeping the conquered territories in Korea. He assumed that the Ming was coming to him to apologize, and being the magnanimous person he was, he would forgive them.

    The above seven terms were not presented directly to the Ming envoys, but rather to Konishi Yukinaga, Otani Yoshitsugu, Mashita Nagamori, and Ishida Mitsunari, the four representatives mentioned above that Hideyoshi designated to handle the negotiations on his behalf. In reality, it was Konishi who took the most active role in negotiating with the Ming and he knew that the demands Hideyoshi presented would never be accepted by the Chinese. He therefore needed to find a more pragmatic approach to solve this impasse and present the demands to the Ming envoys so the negotiation could continue.

    The forgery:

    Hideyoshi no doubt wanted the document presented to the envoys, who would in turn present it to the Wanli emperor. But the document never reached Beijing. What reached there instead was a very different letter also in Hideyoshi’s name, forged jointly by Konishi Yukinaga and Shen Weijing. Rather than opine about his greatness, however, in this letter Hideyoshi instead expressed his submission to the Ming.

    While Naito waited, Kato Kiyomasa approached the Chinese and Koreans with Hideyoshi’s original demands, apparently angered by the fact that Konishi was twisting them. Kato wrote to the Chinese that Konishi had lied – what he asked for was not Hideyoshi’s demands. Hideyoshi had no intention of becoming a mere vassal of the Ming and Kato invited the Chinese to resend envoys to ask the taiko himself.

    SHTF

    After the banquet, Hideyoshi summoned the monk Saisho Shotai (1548-1608) to read the Ming investiture documents for him. Konishi, well aware of their content, privately urged Saisho not to read anything that might offend Hideyoshi. Saisho did not listen.

    …..

    after hearing the content of the documents, Hideyoshi’s face changed color, he immediately cast off his crown and robes, and tore up the documents. Fuming, he shouted, “I already have Japan in my grasp. If I wanted to be king then I would be king. What is this investing me like a bearded caitiff? Moreover, if I am king, then what does that make the Celestial Kingdom?” Hideyoshi then directed his anger at Konishi, the main negotiator for the Japanese. Summoning the latter into his presence, Hideyoshi shouted, “You dare deceive me and now our country is humiliated. I will personally executed you and the Ming envoys.” After hearing this, Konishi shivered in fear.

    The bolded parts in quotations is from the Swope book that you recommend and quoted from.

    In the end, the Ming envoys were expelled from Japan and Konishi was sent back to Korea to lead the Japanese armies for Hideyoshi’s renewed assault there.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  301. @anonymous

    I read through it in detail; it is interesting about the divide in perception, but I would argue that this actually reinforces two of my original points: that there really was no “Japanese” perception, as Konishi was a general of no small importance. Certainly Hideyoshi had different intentions, as even he began to despair toward the end, I would hardly say that his views could be generalized to all of the Japanese.

    Or take another: according to Swope, the Sō clan of Tsushima reached out immediately after the war to try to improve relations and wiki indicates this as well, including altering documents once again. Genso, who apparently had something to do with the deception in the first futile negotiation, was made the chief emissary by Ieyasu and he sent a letter of apology to the Ming and asked for a restoration of tributary trade.

    Ieyasu was clearly aware, in this case, of Genso’s activity and he did not dissuade him. He refused to officially accept being a vassal of China, but at the same time, did not strenuously oppose it; ultimately he accepted the title of “lord of Japan.”

    All of this suggests more complex relationship than “rivalry and rejection.” Hideyoshi had attempted to change the world, it failed, and the Ming had at least for the moment demonstrated their authority. Ieyasu trod a more careful policy, and Neo-Confucianism became resurgent – something which I’ve heard argued that because it promoted the samurai to become better bueaucrats, something which was of course necessary in a more unified Japan and a better solution of what to do with the huge numbers of purposeless warriors. Wiki indeed supports this, and it would be nearly impossible to divorce Confucianism from Chinese influence(the Kansei Edict specifically supported Zhu Xi’s Confucianism). Ultimately, this seemed to be the solution:

    Kokugaku advocates argued that the ancient Japanese were better representatives of Confucian virtues than the ancient Chinese were, and that there should be more intellectual focus on ancient Japanese classics and the indigenous religion of Shinto. Although philosophical competitors, Kokugaku and Neo-Confucianism would co-exist as the dominant philosophical thought of Japan until the arrival of Western philosophy during the Meiji period.

    This was not, though, clearly a popular idea at first. Yamaga Sokō who was the first to argue it, was banished from Edo. Even that school of “Ancient Learning” was divided, with a number of being being ardent Sinophiles(Ogyū Sorai), but they argued that it was the Chinese who had fallen from their ancient teachings. And that, of course, is not that far from the argument of some of the far-right in Japan in present day, that they are the “true inheritors”, ironically, of ancient Chinese wisdom.

    Ultimately, it hardly supports the assertation it was anything as simple as outright rejection of anything Chinese or eternal rivalry, and certainly not of any specific geopolitical rivalry(given the clear difficulties of centralization). Gregorio’s claims are limited, drawn heavily his specific moment of being in the invasion force.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  302. GammaRay says:
    @anonymous

    Well, the US is required to aid Japan in defense against incursions into Japanese administered territory, as per Article V of the 1960 security treaty. If the US doesn’t make it clear that they are committed to the defense of Japanese territory, then what use is the US military to the Japanese? The only way that could be viewed as a threat is if the Chinese plan on taking aggressive action over the islands. The rest of the amendment is calling for restraint on both sides.

    The point is that the US didn’t have to do anything at all, however what the US did constitutes aggressive behavior because not only did they choose to unnecessarily intervene in the matter by (loudly) passing the amendment, but they also made sure to point out that they would back japan up as well. Even the author of the article points out the intent of the amendment in the opening paragraph of the article:

    The U.S. Senate on Thursday unanimously approved an amendment to the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act that is designed to counter attempts by China to challenge Japan’s administration of the Senkaku Islands but sidesteps the question of who has ultimate sovereignty over the disputed territory.

    The whole thing is a powerplay; the US loves to do high horse moral grandstanding crap like this. Your problem is that you’re taking the wording of the amendment literally while missing the obvious intent behind it.

    For the record, the LDP is not “nationalist”. Rather it is essentially Japan’s version of the republican party in the US; just as useless too, if not much more so at times.

    I’m well aware of this. This is what i’ve been alluding to this entire time. This is why I continually criticized abe’s (and by extension the LDP’s) “nationalism”.

    On this tangent, I have always thought that abe’s version of japanese far-right nationalism was an absurd and sad charade. On what planet can one claim to be a true nationalist while being buddy buddy with the very country that defeated you, occupied you (and continues to do so) and has cucked you in every possible way. Any true japanese nationalist worth his salt has to be resolutely anti-american in terms of rejecting US vasselhood. Japanese far-right “nationalists” bitch more about the chinese than the country that is actually militarily occupying them. Its the most sad and pathetic thing I have ever seen. For this reason, I’m highly skeptical of the japanese far-right “nationalists”. To me they just look like US sponsored actors.

    ———————————————————————————————————————————-

    I’m sure the US has some influence on Japanese politics, but I believe you are vastly overestimating it, especially in regards to the present day, with US power and influence in general waning everywhere. There is simply too much going on in the political arenas of Japan, South Korea, Germany, and other US allies (Australia, Canada, UK) that US influence/control just doesn’t account for. In the case of China-Japan relations, things have somewhat improved in the last couple of years, and I hope they get better of course, but I’m pretty sure the squabbling over territorial disputes will continue.

    It would be overstating it if I said that the US absolutely controls japanese politics, however im not making that argument. I’m making the argument that IF the US wants to, it can bend japan towards its will. I will concede that in some of my earlier comments my wording was not very precise. When I said that the US covertly controls the domestic politics of japan, I mean control in the sense that it has the ability to exercise control over japanese politics when it wants to, not that it literally controls every single facet of japanese politics (which would be absurd). Regarding japan specifically, I think that japan will be the last place that US control will wane and this is because japan is the crown jewel of the US’s china containment plan. Nearly the entire success of the US’s containment plan rests on japan, for this reason I think that US control over japan will stay steady or even increase as opposed to decreasing over the next couple of years.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  303. @anonymous

    Lets be honest here… The only reason in the 70’s the Diayou/Senkaku were givent to Japan to “administer” was to bait China to attack. China had been very strategic wkth when they chose to attack. For instance they refrained from following the Nationalists all the way to Taiwan but attacked the US in Korea. Later US ally South Vietnam they pushed off the Paracels. But China isnt the wild warmonger. The west paints China as a threat but China’s military gap is much smaller now than it was in the 50’s and 70’s. So it seems they take peaceful rise seriously. But every nation has their “red lines”. Diayou/Senkaku isnt – while Taiwan is. Still that doesnt mean they will just give up their claims.

  304. @GammaRay

    I dont think the US governs politics in Japan as much as “policy”. The neutering of Japan’s economy after their surge in the 70’s and 80’s with the Plaza Accords is perfect example of the still comtrol the US has over Japanese policy. They thought they could try it with China. Replace ZTE and Huawei with Toshiba and Hitachi. They even recycled Lightizer to do the negotations… I am not sure what is going through their head to make them think it sould have worked.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @GammaRay
  305. @Showmethereal

    The neutering of Japan’s economy after their surge in the 70’s and 80’s with the Plaza Accords is perfect example of the still comtrol the US has over Japanese policy.

    This is a good point. The Japanese that were most incensed by the Plaza Accords(including two authors that I need to find the names of) are some of the most “pro-Chinese.” There’s obviously an utilitarian aspect to it: they are probably more anti-West than pro-China, but it shows something that is far from an abject dislike of China.

  306. GammaRay says:
    @Showmethereal

    why not both? Youre making an unnecessary distinction here. Did you read my response to anonymous earlier?

    [MORE]

    Its very simple, in japan if there is a political candidate that the US doesn’t like then he won’t gain political power, however if he is on the right page then he probably will gain political power. What’s happening in japan is not unique in this regards, the US has done this in other countries too. Its the US’s basic MO.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/

    below is a detailed list of occasions in which the US has overthrown democratically elected leaders of sovereign countries. If the US can do this to sovereign countries, what makes you think it cant do this to its own vassal states?

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-us-has-been-meddling-in-other-countries-elections-for-a-century-it-doesnt-feel-good_n_57983b85e4b02d5d5ed382bd?guccounter=1

    Its pertinent to consider the fate of yukio hatoyama. This article is very informative:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-american-world-empire-japan-as-a-vassal-state/

    Furthermore you need to consider that the dominant, current political paradigm in japan was funded by the CIA:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to-support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html

    For a more comprehensive source of information you can read this:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/42705308?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Guess what political party the CIA helped put into power? That’s right, the LDP. The same LDP that Shinzo Abe belongs to. The same LDP that is supposedly a “nationalist” party. The LDP and the politicians associated with it owe a deep debt to the CIA/US. The US doesn’t always have to use the stick, it can use carrots too, and in many cases it can just rely on native assets that its cultivated throughout the years.

    Keep in mind that the US has a number of tools it can use to coerce and control japan, economically and otherwise, remember the plaza accord? Most importantly is that at the end of the day there are 60,000 US troops stationed in japan as of 2019. The US is in a position to both threaten japan and to also carry out its threats as well. Japan is literally unable to say no if the stakes are high enough for the US. If the US doesn’t want somebody in power in japan then they can arrange for them to be replaced. The US interferes in the domestic politics of all of its other vassal states (and even non-vassal states), why would japan be any different?

    The US has many ways to coerce japan period, both policy and politicians alike. A vassal state is a vassal state is a vassal state. Due to the leverage among many different points afforded by the master/vassal relationship the US has many ways of bending japan to its will, the end result is the same.

  307. anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, as the war had ended, relations with were normalized. I never argued otherwise.

    Gregorio’s claims are limited, drawn heavily his specific moment of being in the invasion force.

    Well, I don’t know who Gregorio is or what his claims are. A quick google search reveals that he was a Spanish Jesuit who lived in Japan for 34 years from 1577 until his death in 1611 (including one year in Korea as a chaplain for Japanese troops in 1594-95). Offhand, I would probably find it very difficult to be dismissive of someone with that much experience in the Far East.

    Wiki indeed supports this, and it would be nearly impossible to divorce Confucianism from Chinese influence(the Kansei Edict specifically supported Zhu Xi’s Confucianism).

    I never said otherwise. In fact, I even alluded to Zhu Xi when I made the reference to the 11th and 12th century Chinese confucianists who’s work provided the bedrock of what would later develope into the Japanese neoconfucianism of Edo period.

    And that, of course, is not that far from the argument of some of the far-right in Japan in present day, that they are the “true inheritors”, ironically, of ancient Chinese wisdom.

    Actually, on some level I’d say this general feeling could be applied to a large segment of Japanese society, not just the far right. I believe it is also closely tied to the historical development of Buddhism in Japan.

    Ultimately, it hardly supports the assertation it was anything as simple as outright rejection of anything Chinese or eternal rivalry,

    I never said anything even remotely resembling “outright rejection of anything Chinese” or “eternal rivalry”. You’re really reading too much into my comments.

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