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Give Us Liberty or Give Us Artificial Intelligence Victory Over China? I Choose Liberty
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Earlier (2011): John Derbyshire On Understanding China And The Chinese

[Excerpted from the latest Radio Derb, now available exclusively through VDARE.com]

Having been writing about China for forty years, I was naturally interested to see what Trump and Biden had to say about the country in last Thursday’s debate.

Answer: Nothing with any real insight or understanding. There was a lot of back and forth about whether this guy or the other guy was taking money from the ChiComs; then some bluster from both candidates about how tough they have been with China.

Watching it, I thought I could hear from the far distance the sound of the ChiCom politburo rolling around on the floor hooting with laughter.

For a clue to my frame of mind here I refer you to David Goldman‘s October 19th article at Asia Times: Covid-19 Launches The Fourth Industrial Revolution.

Goldman describes in detail how the ChiComs have used the pandemic to advance their lead in AI (Artificial Intelligence). He concludes:

Computer science could not have devised a more useful dataset for the development of AI than the propagation of the Covid-19 virus. The exercise requires sophisticated real-time management of datasets involving impossibly large numbers of individual observations, and the ability to correlate locational, medical and demographic data with population sampling through forensic tests.

AI helped control the pandemic, but the pandemic gave Chinese AI an unprecedented push forward. The West hasn’t even begun to address the problem. And that is the most troubling observation of all.

There is much more to be said about that. Goldman’s observations agree with what I hear from my wife, who keeps in touch with her family and friends in China through social media.

Yes, they tell us: Anywhere they go their movements, contacts, temperature, and other health indices are constantly monitored and scanned. They are barred from certain places if they don’t meet the right criteria.

It’s total social control, backed by colossal databases and massive AI programs. It seems to have conquered the pandemic : Life is back to normal in China [How sickening that the dragon is roaring back: China’s economy is booming during the pandemic it unleashed, By Edward Lucas, Daily Mail, October 20, 2020]. The third-quarter numbers for economic growth, just released this week, show almost five percent improvement over third quarter last year. [China’s economy grows 4.9% as industrial production surges, retail sales rise and unemployment sinks – while the rest of the world is crippled by coronavirus epidemic that started in Wuhan, AP, Daily Mail, October 19, 2020] The corresponding figure for the U.S.A. is negative ten percent.

Should we, like David Goldman, find this “troubling”? Well, yes, but with qualifications.

If, as Goldman argues, Big Data joined with AI is a “Fourth Industrial Revolution,” and if China is steaming ahead of us in those fields, then the U.S.A. will soon, for the first time in living memory—for the first time in 150 years, I think—be a second-rate technological power.

That’s going to be quite an adjustment.

However, if the price to be paid for addressing the problem is a Chinese level of social control, the price is too high. That would be the death of our traditional liberties.

One of my favorite words in the American language is “ornery.” I like orneriness. I don’t just like it, I think it’s socially valuable.

I’m not very ornery myself by nature. I wear a face mask when I go shopping, just on the chicken soup principle: It can’t hurt. Still, when I see two people in a yelling match because one of them isn’t wearing a mask, I instinctively side with the non-mask-wearer. He’s being ornery, and I like ornery.

In a country with China’s level of social control, orneriness will get you ten to fifteen breaking rocks in a labor camp on the Qinghai Plateau; or, at the very least, confined to your apartment 24/7 because the algorithms won’t let you go anywhere.

I don’t want to live in a country like that. Liberty! —especially the liberty to be ornery.

David Goldman is right none the less. China is roaring ahead of us into that Fourth Industrial Revolution, and we will become a second-rate technological power. That may not be a disaster, and I don’t myself mind it if it’s the price of keeping our liberties; but it will need some big adjustments that our leaders show no signs they are prepared for.

In military matters, for example. If I had been moderating Thursday’s debate, here’s a question I would have put to both candidates.

China’s saber-rattling towards Taiwan has been getting louder and louder in recent months. There is a probability that the next President will, at some point in his four years in office, be confronted by a Chinese military assault on Taiwan. Based on your understanding of the situation there, what is your estimate of that probability? Twenty percent? Fifty percent? Ninety percent? How should the U.S.A. respond to such an assault?

I’ll just add as a footnote that David Goldman has a new book out, title You Will Be Assimilated: China’s Plan to Sino-form the World.

I recommend it. The thirty-page appendix is worth the book’s price all by itself.

John Derbyshire [email him] writes an incredible amount on all sorts of subjects for all kinds of outlets. (This no longer includes National Review, whose editors had some kind of tantrum and fired him.) He is the author of We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism and several other books. He has had two books published by VDARE.com com: FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT (also available in Kindle) and FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT II: ESSAYS 2013.

For years he’s been podcasting at Radio Derb, now available at VDARE.com for no charge. His writings are archived at JohnDerbyshire.com.

Readers who wish to donate (tax deductible) funds specifically earmarked for John Derbyshire’s writings at VDARE.com can do so here.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Anonymous[490] • Disclaimer says:

    David Goldman should write a book titled

    Golemization: Jewry’s failed plot to use Judaize the world beyond the United States.

    Chinese are great, they don’t brainwash the U.S into foreign wars or promote annoying divisive media with a subversive agenda.

    • Troll: Lot
  2. Thank you for this one, Mr. Derbyshire. I have heard lots about the iEspionage devices (some still call them “telephones”) being used for this health scoring too. When combined with the massive change from a society of “Cash is King”* to a phone-based cashless economy and the Social Credit business, the place is turning into an Orwellian nightmare that would make Orwell’s 1984 look like a picnic!

    There is NO WAY I want any part in any of that, so I am quite glad that we are “falling behind”. For those who will come comment here in a little while with praise of all things China, just get the hell over there and quit bugging us. We wish you all the luck, but most of us have read the book.

    Peak Stupidity discussed “Dashed hopes for China”, having brought up these points this Spring – Part 1 and Part 2.

    .

    * Hell, 15 years ago, nobody that I met wrote checks and not many used plastic yet, as it was just big wads of Red Chinese Mao-bills, each 100 worth about 15 bucks.

  3. On that GDP change bar graph, all I have to say is that I wouldn’t use the word “troubling” in regard to these numbers, as we know perfectly well what has been causing the slide. If you keep participating in this 8-month running Panic-Fest, you are part of the problem (not the personal “you” here, of course).

    I see your orneriness and raise you one increasingly pissed-off. I’m really getting sick of it all and have not been complying without threats of being kicked out of places. I had a nice experience in Target in which I and this lady behind me at the checkout line were the only ones not wearing a mask.

    We chatted while my stuff got rung up about these idiots driving around by themselves with masks on and 20-y/o students at the university wearing the damn things outside in the sunshine on the quad. The word “retarded” was bandied about… multiple times … by me … with lots of people within earshot. (That plexiglass only blocks the germs, dontcha’ know, not the disparaging remarks.)

  4. d dan says:

    “China’s saber-rattling towards Taiwan has been getting louder and louder in recent months. There is a probability that the next President will, at some point in his four years in office, be confronted by a Chinese military assault on Taiwan.”

    Just so that the readers understand: the so-called China’s “saber-rattling” is in response to more and more assertive American military adventures in the areas (e.g. thousands of sorties of American military planes – fighters, bombers, spy planes – flew in the last few months alone, plus endless aircraft carriers, warships, “freedom” of navigations, jointed military exercises… At least one of the American spy plane even turned on the responder to “pretend” to be an civilian plane when approach Chinese coastal area. And there was even an unconfirmed report of American spy plane landed in Taiwan, and more), increased American diplomatic pressures (e.g. higher and higher ranking US officials visiting Taiwan, more strident propaganda from ilk like Pompeo and Rubio), larger and more frequent American arm sales to Taiwan, etc. All these are happening, of course, in the overall context of deterioration of Sino-US relation. In addition, like a typical Pavlov’s dog, Taiwan Tsai In-wen has been jumping as high as the American hawks demand to match every of these American adventures: e.g. shutting down more economic and cultural ties and activities with the mainland,…

    America is obviously playing the Taiwan “card” as an additional weapon to irritate China in the new cold war. This clown author either doesn’t know or doesn’t care about the overall background of the whole situation there, and typical Americans reading only the usual MSM would just assume this is yet another Chicom “aggression”.

  5. Stogumber says:

    In a Chinese century, what will become of the Jews? The Jews will of course try to make themselves useful to the new overlords, like they have done with all European overlords. On the other hand, the Chinese are good especially at things where the Jews were superior to the European goyim, like finance and science – and even when the Chinese are very willing to study Jewish “secrets”, they do it mostly for to emulate the Jews, not submit to them.
    So the Jews will be reduced to the only skill where they are way ahead: propaganda, twisting the news, journalism.

  6. mijj says:

    > “However, if the price to be paid for addressing the problem is a Chinese level of social control, the price is too high. That would be the death of our traditional liberties.”

    .. our traditional liberties .. we are at liberty to choose to: live in poverty, suffer from illness, to hunger, fear random aggression on the street.

    Oh, how the Chinese must envy our freedoms.

    As usual our empty headed politicians and writers parrot wonderful pompous phrases with no inkling that they lack any kind of depth or significance in reality.

    • Agree: Mary Marianne
  7. @Achmed E. Newman

    Piqued Stupidity:

    For those who will come comment here in a little while with praise of all things China, just get the hell over there and quit bugging us.

    Does “praise of all things China” include an American objecting to Uncle Sam already and increasingly being “the hell over there” and everywhere else on earth, trying to destroy what he can’t control?

    And did it cross your mind why Mr. Derbyshire never bothered to answer his loaded version of a question that the Red and Blue voting sheep aren’t allowed to hear debated?

    China’s saber-rattling towards Taiwan has been getting louder and louder in recent months. There is a probability that the next President will, at some point in his four years in office, be confronted by a Chinese military assault on Taiwan. Based on your understanding of the situation there, what is your estimate of that probability? Twenty percent? Fifty percent? Ninety percent? How should the U.S.A. respond to such an assault?

    Nah, too busy shilling the new book by a self-described “investment banker in China and strategic consultant, and … principal of a great Asian news organization, the Asia Times,” about “what America can do to remain the world’s leading superpower.” Or maybe he started thinking about whether that Exceptional! fealty he loves to signal is worth his soldier son earning the Derbyshire family their Gold Star.

    • Agree: Mary Marianne
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  8. Back in 2018, the richest 10 percent of American households held 70 percent of total household wealth, up from 60 percent in 1989. The lower- and middle-class saw “essentially zero net gains in wealth” over the past 30 years. Their share of total wealth went down to just 1 percent from 4 percent.
    There is disparity in USA but the Deep State points at others ??

  9. El Dato says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Orwellian nightmare that would make Orwell’s 1984 look like a picnic!

    Maybe the economy will decay to the levels of English Socialism, but until then you will be able to partake in lots of enjoyable activities directly from “Brave New World”.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  10. Confession time: for several years, I was one of those BRICS-boosters, who couldn’t stop praising Putin and Xi for joining forces to take on the corrupt Globalist oligarchy that dominates the West. No more!

    Ever since this fake plague began, it has been all too obvious that Russia and China are secretly in league with (controlled by?) that same Globalist élite that they pretend to be against. Bottom line: that whole BRICS bank thing was probably just another Illuminati ruse to bring the remaining third-world holdouts (Iran, Venezuela, etc.) into line.

    So let there be no doubt, people: China is now the Globalist élite’s preferred model. And we are going to be forced to Sinify our own countries (social credit apps, 5G and fake ‘vaccines’) in order to ‘stay number one’ (USA! USA!). They want us so busy waiving our little flags that we don’t even notice that we’ve become total cyborg-GMO slaves of the new world order.

    You have been warned.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  11. On this side of the pond, orneriness implies a sort of belligerence that is unseemly. “Cussedness” may be the better word as it implies a stubborn resistance that is, for whatever its faults, tolerated and even indulged by the more normal relatives and friends of the subject.

    Not that I’m trying to know anything here. I’m just a benighted colonial, far removed from the seats of power and fount of Logos that pours forth from the imperial capitol in Oxford.

    An ornery person has no friends; he will turn on you in a flash so you must be cautious around him. You cannot let down your guard. “A bear with a sore tooth” is the traditional phrase that comes to mind. A cussed person has as many as he cares to as his cussedness is pretty well matched by that of his fellow human beings.

    But perhaps I’m wrong. I’m no expert. Just my assay of their relative valences.

  12. @Greta Handel

    Does “praise of all things China” include an American objecting to Uncle Sam already and increasingly being “the hell over there” and everywhere else on earth, trying to destroy what he can’t control?

    No. That’s not what I’m talking about, Greta. I agree completely with you or anyone who says the US military had no business over there, same with most other areas of the world where there are American fighting men and machinery operating via borrowed Chinese money.

    I also think Mr. Derbyshire’s proposed debate question, well it’s supposed to be a question, after all, could have been phrased differently: “With this country’s government in a hole $27,000,000,000,000 deep, why on God’s green earth are we defending an island full of Chinese people from their countrymen on the motherland? Would you favor ditching any defense treaties with Taiwan, and hell, most of NATO for that matter, shoot, how about disbanding NATO as you promised… Why are 25,000 US troops still in Korea after 67 years! (not the same guys) defending one bunch of Koreans, with a yuge trade surplus with us, from another bunch of Koreans, when those troops could be used to maintain a secure southern border for this country for cheaper?”

    See, Greta, that’s why they don’t let ME ask the questions. ;-}

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
  13. Here’s a video with Mr. Goldman summarizing his take.

    • Replies: @nickels
  14. Jamie_NYC says:

    John, you have a very narrow view of what AI is. US does not lag behind China in AI (look at Tesla FSD, Google/ Deep Mind etc.). We just do not want to be subjected to mass surveillance. Yes, US government institutions are probably much slower and generally less competent than their Chinese counterparts. But AI is being developed in academia and in corporate sector and perhaps by DARPA. No lag there.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  15. Realist says:

    Much more important than AI is improvement in human cognitive ability…in which China will most likely attain world dominance…through genomics and genetic engineering.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  16. Lot says:
    @Stogumber

    “ In a Chinese century, what will become of the Jews? ”

    They will prosper in Israel and over here mostly merge into the white American and W. Euro upper class, like 1/8 Jewish Boris Johnson and his likely successor, Dominic Raab (1/2). Or if Labour takes over, a guy married to a Jewish woman and children being raised Jewish.

  17. @Achmed E. Newman

    If that’s what you think, then why post so many accolades to this website’s Exceptional! and Chinadidit columnists like Mr. Derbyshire? Is their race bait all that tasty?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  18. I don’t know what you call the guy that wrote “The Talk: Non-black Version.” Maybe not exactly ornery, but certainly Feynmanian, as in “what do you care what other people think.”

    I question the whole idea that the AI social-credit concept will take over the world.

    My faith is that we got where we are today because of Anybodies — Newcomen, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Einstein, Ford, Jobs — doing stuff without permission from the Somebodies. They got their revolution up and running before the Somebodies even knew what was going on.

    When the Somebodies tell the Anybodies what the Anybodies can and cannot say or do, @jack, then you have a locked-down society, and I suspect that it ain’t going anywheres.

  19. Escher says:

    Mr. Derbyshire:
    You may not be interested in Big Data and AI, but it is sure interested in you.

  20. @Greta Handel

    How long have you read Mr. Derbyshire’s writing, Miss Handel? I bet I’ve read 10X as much, so don’t tell me what Mr. Derbyshire is all about. He writes well, and he writes the truth. (I’ve probably just quibbled with his writing on about 2% of it.)

  21. @Digital Samizdat

    You are right, an acertained and obvious right. Why spill the beans, they are wasted to the surplus population, and at the top of the pyramid, the ones that do all the AI analysis for the top-tier dancing clowns, it does not sound menacing for that same reason.

    At face value, AI could be used for even more interesting projects then polling (in the West), and sorting the population (for more advanced reasons, as in China). The future is to AI and applying AI to such things as biology, biology of genetics, population counts, migrations. No historical models, even as input submitted to AI to optimization, are viable. So China seems even less aspiring to me then the crap-shoot in the West based on the Jewish mindset and method.

  22. @Realist

    It´s a bet, both are entwined, into my opinion, except for the immediateness of AI (mostly big data, big data research, meaningful automated analysis of the harvest), genetic manipulation might have in the mid-term the harder impact. As you seem to do.

  23. @Achmed E. Newman

    Alipay is a wonderful tool. The Dissident right should consider using it as a Paypal Alternative.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  24. @Stogumber

    The Chinese are very good at producing their own propaganda, thank you very much!

    • Replies: @Mary Marianne
  25. @Stogumber

    They are trying to shut down the internet to maintain propaganda their monopoly.

  26. @El Dato

    OK, 1984, the Foodies’ version.

  27. Sean says:

    China’s saber-rattling towards Taiwan has been getting louder and louder in recent months. There is a probability that the next President will, at some point in his four years in office, be confronted by a Chinese military assault on Taiwan. Based on your understanding of the situation there, what is your estimate of that probability? Twenty percent? Fifty percent?

    Unless Taiwan announces it’s independence from China, 0.01% If Taiwan announces its independence, 100%. We know this because China has said it will invade if Taiwan makes any such unilateral declaration.

    How should the U.S.A. respond to such an assault?

    Taiwan is in the lee of a continent. To try and defend Taiwan from a Chinese attack would be an extremely costly conventional operation in terms of lives of American servicemen and quite possibly would fail. A tactical nuclear response to a Chinese attack on Taiwan was blustered about in diplomatic code (“incalculable consequences”) years ago and the Chinese implicitly threatened to retaliate by nuking Los Angeles. The CCP consider Taiwan part of their national territory.

    It’s very difficult to see how the US could prevail militarily in China’s back yard, I think America will try to stand back from such a conflict. Trying to take China down economically will be difficult now they have their own home market to fall back on. America has never faced a challenge like that of China, so there is no particular reason to think at a end of day China will come off second best.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  28. Derb Goldman is just marketing a silly book.

    According to Who Is Winning the AI Race: China, the EU or the United States? (2019) by Daniel Castro and others, China has an edge in adoption and datasets but it is way behind the U.S. in absolute terms. In September the Pentagon’s Joint AI Center (JAIC) also acknowledged this.

    The CCP is really playing catch up. The advent of Blighty-based DeepMind’s AlphaGo was a Sputnik moment. In 2016 the AI beat world champion Lee Sedol at the Chinese board game of Go (won 4 of 5 matches).

    AlphaGo has since evolved into AlphaZero which can play Go and chess with superhuman abilities. It was recently used by Aarhus University in Denmark to solve quantum computing problems.

    What the CCP is doing with AI is no different from Facebook, Twitter and YouTube censorship when you call a spade a spade instead of a big spoon.

  29. Biff says:

    In a country with China’s level of social control, orneriness will get you ten to fifteen breaking rocks in a labor camp on the Qinghai Plateau;

    There is still a statistically higher chance of incarceration in the United States than China, or any other country in the world(when the citizens are protected with a ‘Bill of Rights’ just make everything else illegal and totalitarian control is made easy).

  30. Biff says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks, S&D, but Cash is King!

    Yea, until the cops catch you with the stuff and relieve you of it(don’t ask me how I know this).

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  31. nickels says:

    I wouldn’t worry about it.
    Dipsh*t commies don’t know how to think, only to steal and copy.
    The less freedom the slanty eyes have, the less they will produce anything revolutionary.

    The real problem is the elite class in America selling us out to these yellow bastar*s.
    A good lining up of all these traitors against the wall will solve everything.

  32. nickels says:
    @The Alarmist

    Goldman is interesting, but, ultimately, his jewy jew world view leads him down the road of yellow admiration and so he misses the point entirely.
    The world is not a finance bubble.
    The point is that we need to send everyone like him (he helped China as an investment banker) who loves the yellows against the wall so we can get back to being Westerners.
    Jews and slanty eyes have very much in common. Godless small minded people who see everything in terms of simplified models, who think everything can be summed up and divided through and computed. They understand nothing of the human spirit of the soul.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Anonymous
  33. Sean says:
    @nickels

    They understand nothing of the human spirit of the soul.

    As Bostrom says in his book Superintelligence “A human will typically not wager all her capital for a fifty–fifty chance of doubling it. A state will typically not risk losing all its territory for a ten percent chance of a tenfold expansion. For individuals and governments, there are diminishing returns”. When AI is set to playing poker they are found to be willing to make such bets as humans usually decline out of being adverse to any risk for a vanishingly small premium. But AI beats humans at poker.

  34. Redman says:

    It seems to have conquered the pandemic : Life is back to normal in China

    This is a statement requiring proof. And to date, I haven’t heard of anyone I have ever personally known become seriously ill from/with Coronavirus. To wit, was there really anything ever there to conquer? Or was Covid really just a case of massive group psychosis?

    And what about Sweden? While most question the CV “numbers coming out of China,” I question the US numbers coming off of the boob tube. New info out indicates that 2020 had (or will have) Sweden’s third lowest national death rate in its history (going back to 1860). And we all know what Sweden did to fight the pandemic….

    https://cornucopia.cornubot.se/2020/10/september-2020-den-minst-dodliga.html

  35. @Biff

    I won’t ask, but I will recommend that you know your vehicle very well, like all the hidey holes, Biff. (That is until you get your car towed, haha…)

    I have been straight about what I think is better in China vs. America and vice versa. I’ll tell you this, on the eminent domain thing, they don’t put up with as much. (I don’t know enough about these seizures of cash in China vs. our “Drug War” spoils to comment.) Peak Stupidity discussed the eminent domain abuse in the US vs. a dude in China that kept the cops at bay with fireworks shot out of a tube in “Fireworks from China”.

  36. @Jamie_NYC

    John, you have a very narrow view of what AI is. US does not lag behind China in AI (look at Tesla FSD, Google/ Deep Mind etc.). We just do not want to be subjected to mass surveillance.

    No we just want to kill off a few hundred thousand of our fellow citizens! Wonderful to keep one’s civil right to ornerally swan around killing and maiming my fellow citizens! Such freedom! Pity that the resulting dead can’t enjoy any rights at all, but there, you can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs can you?

    Yes, US government institutions are probably much slower and generally less competent than their Chinese counterparts. But AI is being developed in academia and in corporate sector and perhaps by DARPA. No lag there.

    Yes let’s not mention or give any credit to the Chinese government for saving the lives of their people. Let’s jeer at the (Temporary) loss of freedom they had to suffer to stamp out the virus. Lets not recognize that the cooperation between the people and their government had a good outcome. Nothing worth emulating there! Let’s just jeer and move on. No doubt DARPA is finding a way to weaponize AI to protect us from the dreaded Chicoms!

  37. @Sean

    For once I agree completely with what you have written.

    As to how to respond; the Chinese say that they think that all problems between countries can be solved by negotiations. Why not take them up on it? Of course, if you have a completely unreasonable position, such as: “We have been top dogs for a century or more and we are not going to give up being Global Overlords, no matter what!” The negotiations are going to be, err, sticky, but surely, that is better than going to war. Isn’t it?

    • Replies: @Sean
  38. Anonymous[408] • Disclaimer says:
    @nickels

    Jews and slanty eyes have very much in common. Godless small minded people who see everything in terms of simplified models, who think everything can be summed up and divided through and computed. They understand nothing of the human spirit of the soul.

    You’re describing the rationalist Western mind here, not the Eastern or Oriental one.

    The rationalist Western mind is analytical. “Analysis” in the original Greek means to loosen up, loosen apart. The Western mind divides things to their components in analysis to understand them and make them simpler for computation. Hence the atomic theory going back to Democritus, and “All is Number” as Pythagoras said.

    Analysis into simpler parts and the construction of simplified models to describe and predict them is the epitome of the rationalist Western mind and the basis of Western philosophy and science. Jews are highly analytical in this manner and thus excel in argumentation and Western math and science.

    The Easterners or Orientals tend to be holistic in thinking and resistant to this sort of analysis.

    • Replies: @Pat Kittle
    , @nickels
  39. @Anonymous

    The Chinese excel at STEM, they have a high IQ, a serious work ethic, and they aren’t sabotaged by a (((metastasizing victim industrial complex))). Yeah they make some junk, but they also make stuff that even the Japanese say is on a par with Japanese quality.

    And that’s all DESPITE being over 4 times more over-populated that the US. China did itself, us, & the entire world a huge favor by implementing its 1-child birth control policy — as important a political achievement as any. Stopping human overbreeding is absolutely essential to peace, sanity, & a decent quality of life. If you don’t like how the Chinese did it, fine, come up with a better way — that actually works.

    As for saber-rattling, imagine the Chinese military treating the Gulf of Mexico like the US treats the South China Sea. Imagine the Chinese going out of their way to bomb a US Embassy in Europe and pretending it was an accident.

    If you want to criticize the Chinese, their horrific treatment of animals is a good place to start.

    • Replies: @mike99588
  40. Sean says:
    @foolisholdman

    As to how to respond; the Chinese say that they think that all problems between countries can be solved by negotiations. Why not take them up on it? Of course, if you have a completely unreasonable position, such as: “We have been top dogs for a century or more and we are not going to give up being Global Overlords, no matter what!”

    True but the US deciding to negotiate such a deal with China would be taken–quite rightly in my opinion– as a capitulation on the part of the US, and its strategists coming to terms with the realization that America will only come off worst in a rivalry against China. America is hardly going to calculate that it would emerge victorious in a politico-economic or military confrontation with China, yet decide to come to an agreement with China to avoid any such confrontations, is it? Even if the US were to ask for negotiation, China would see it as a capitulation to China’s unassailable strong position and drive an extremely hard bargain indeed, because they are not going to let the US get through diplomacy what it would be unable to achieve with political and economic or military conflict.

    The position of the USA is not so secure that they could back off and still be secure in their homeland, I don’t believe the US–whatever it thinks it is– has ever been a global overlord because as Mearsheimer says, the geography (oceans) makes it almost impossible to project power more effectively than enables obtaining regional hegemon status, which means free to interfere in other’ regions. China has the strategic space, population and productive capacity to dominate its region, but having been free of any peer competitors since the Confederacy was defeated, Americans’ main objective had been to stop any other country from dominating its own region. That is why they began assigning China to to role of ally against the USSR. and gave it access to capital from the World Bank, which greatly facilitated China’s rise. President Carter ordered US officials to assist trade with China in any way they could. That policy outlived it usefulness, and only ended with Trump. Russia was rescued in the 90s by demand for its energy and clunky goods, but now supply nothing but natural resources to China.

    Biden has repeatedly said that he doesn’t consider China serious competition for the US, so the danger is that under his presidency China steals a march on the US and then America will wake up after his term (which could be a long one because he is not going to be easy to remove) to find it has what it can not not accept: a country that is interfering in the Americas as the USA has in Asia. The US tried to make its local proxy leader Chiang Kai-shek master of China and then with Korea and Vietnam fought two wars on the borders of China. American strategists know very well that there is a calculus of geopolitics operating that means were China to become a regional hegemon it would be ineluctably be propelled into undermining America in its homeland and making it subservient to China.

    The negotiations are going to be, err, sticky, but surely, that is better than going to war. Isn’t it?

    The crucial consideration for both sides will be whether they could obtain an agreement that would strengthen their position. The sticking point exists only for the country (not China) whose power relative to its rival is projected to suffer an inexorable decline. The US withdrawing its bases from the Pacific in return for an certain concessions by China about the limits of its sphere of influence might be the basis for a negotiated settlement, although there is always uncertainty about other’s true intentions, we cannot know what Xi’s thinking is or may become, but let’s put that to one side.

    The insurmountable problem is even if China’s leadership is sincere in an agreement and remains such a decade or so hence, their interpretation of any agreement and thus the policy of China may be expected to alter in line with the expected growth in Chinese capacities. China the boy with potential capacity may abide by an agreement to mind its manners for ever after in return for America backing off, but down the line China the man with actual capability might behave a little differently. And then, with a seven foot tall, gun totin’, door kickin’ China showing up in the US hood; America would feel the need of the basing system and local allies in Asia; those advantages the US once had, yet gave up without gaining anything lasting in return.

  41. People aren’t pooping on the streets because they unlearned basic hygiene. Rather, the incidents reflect shameful levels of inequality in the city

    Biggest Street Pooper?

    1 – Pelosi
    2 – Harris

  42. Sean says:

    Goldman describes in detail how the ChiComs have used the pandemic to advance their lead in AI (Artificial Intelligence)

    Their 5th Generation is leading in the degree of penetration of society and ability to control every individual within it by operant conditioning; its an automated system of surveillance, reward and punishment that is more efficient but not different in kind to previous totalitarianism.

    Professor Mearshierer has said the America has a decisive advantage inasmuch as the lifestyle and opportunities society drawing in the most brilliant people from all over the world. It is perhaps also true that the most technically advanced because it is not totalitarian.

    https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/andreas-wagner/life-finds-a-way/

    Most readers associate evolution with Darwinian natural selection, but Wagner points out its limited creative capacity. In natural selection, a better adapted organism produces more offspring. This preserves good traits and discards bad ones until it reaches a peak of fitness. This process works perfectly in an “adaptive landscape” with a single peak, but it fails when there are many—and higher—peaks. Conquering the highest—true creativity—requires descending into a valley and trying again. Natural selection never chooses the worse over the better, so it can’t descend. Wagner devotes most of his book to the 20th-century discovery of the sources of true biological creativity: genetic drift, recombination, and other processes that inject diversity into the evolutionary process. […] The human parallel with natural selection is laissez faire competition, which is efficient but equally intolerant of trial and error. Far more productive are systems that don’t penalize failure but encourage play, experimentation, dreaming, and diverse points of view. In this vein, American schools fare poorly, but Asian schools are worse.

    The closest thing to genuine artificial intelligence at present is Google’s AlphaZero and when the first actual machine that can think is constructed it is very likely to be in the West. However, if a Chinese research project were to defy the odds and begin to make such strides it seemed to be getting within striking distance of a genuine (general) artificial intelligence, by having something that could cognate for itself–at the level of even a cockroach at first but zipping past human level in short order if the project was allowed to continue–then that project would have to be destroyed by the US, whatever the cost of an attack on China.

    Civets are wild animals that the Chinese cage and horribly mistreat so they can defecate beans for what is supposed to make the world’s best tasting coffee. The men of China men think eating the body parts of Pangolins will make them more virile. This is a billion backward people who still use their own excrement as fertiliser in many rural areas, and are bringing isolated disease pools in wild and domestic animal species into intimate contact with one another and humans too.

    The Chinese knew that something very like this current pangolin-bat chimerical virus pandemic in humans could happen. In 2002 there was SARS, which was a civet-vectored bat chimerical virus epidemic. The world authorities like Dr Ian Lipkin were for over a decade begging the Chinese to close down the wet markets with associated wild animal trafficking before they created something even worse. Now we have COVID-19, which is a pangolin-vectored chimerical bat virus pandemic. If COVID -19 has done anything good it is a massive increase of surveillance of what is happening inside China. We know they are venal, feckless, never learn and wont listen. They will have to be watched closely, and come the next existential threat they seem to be about to inflict on the world, suffer the consequences themselves for a change.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Polemos
  43. nickels says:
    @Anonymous

    The rationalist Western mind is analytical. “Analysis” in the original Greek means to loosen up, loosen apart. The Western mind divides things to their components in analysis to understand them and make them simpler for computation. Hence the atomic theory going back to Democritus, and “All is Number” as Pythagoras said.

    This argument could be made, but it only really applies to peoples like the worthless limey’s, which are essentially just jews anyway.
    Germans, Russians, and French are certainly not constrained to the simple rationalism like the yellows, the jews and the anglos.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  44. Anon[836] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Civet coffee (“kopi luwak”) comes from SE Asia, namely Indonesia. It was a high end luxury coffee for the Dutch (who first came into contact with it as colonists in Indonesia setting up coffee plantations) and then other Europeans before it became popular elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Sean
  45. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @nickels

    Apparently you’ve never heard of German and French philosophy and science.

    Lumping Jews and Anglos with the yellows as opposed to the Western tradition of the ancient Greeks and modern French and Germans makes no sense.

    Russians have been peripheral to the West at best. They’ve never been part of the core and mainstream of the Western tradition of the Greeks, Romans, modern English, Germans, French, Jews.

  46. Sean says:
    @Anon

    Kopi luwak coffee is mainly bought by the Chinese. The SARS epidemic of 2003 was caused by the SARS-CoV virus. Civets, sold for meat in local markets of China’s Yunnan province carried the SARS virus from horseshoe bats to humans.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/may/24/china.sars
    Civet is one of the main ingredients in the exotic wildlife dish “dragon-tiger-phoenix soup”, for which wealthy Chinese in Guangdong province will pay large sums. […] One of China’s first confirmed Sars patients, Huang Xingchu, 34, worked as a cook in a Shenzhen restaurant. […]”If you cannot control further jumping of such viruses from animals to humans, the same epidemic can occur again – so it is very important that we have ways of controlling the rearing, the slaughtering and the selling of these wild game animals.” “This is a good step forward,” said John Oxford, an expert in virology at Queen Mary School of Medicine in London. “Now we can start putting barriers between the people and the cats [civets[ to stop it, and further viruses, coming across.”

    That was in 2003. Did the Chinese close down the wet markets and stop eating wildlife as infectious disease experts like Lipkin were begging them to for over a decade? No, in 2003 they still had civets for sale in the wet markets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caiAC0F5-3U

    Like I said they do not listen, their bland indifference to an other people’s suffering is because as individuals Chinese are lacking guilt or empathy as Westerners understand it. The cause of the COVID-19 pandemic is SARS-CoV-2 which is thought to be a a bat virus getting into a pangolin and then into humans. It is basically the 2003 SARS epidemic 2.0 with the civet ‘hook’ replaced by one from a pangolin and vastly more effective an infecting humans as a result. Luckily it did not have a mortality of 10%, but it might have.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  47. @Supply and Demand

    Pfffftttt… no. Chinese are very good at a lot of things, but propaganda is not one of them. Heck, even the Indians are better at propaganda than Chinese are.

  48. mike99588 says:
    @Pat Kittle

    The US does not gratuitously molest civilian CCP ships in the international GOM, or at least for rules different for the rest.

    Whereas CCP is molesting civilian ships in long established territorial waters of ASEAN countries and international waterways. Cute little tricks like CCP militia “fishermen” ramming, or CCP Coast Guard invading.

    A lot of this Xi shit is going to stop or Davy Jones is going to have a lot of Chinese recruits. The fun starts when allied countries start enforcing their territorial waters and breaking CCP toys in earnest.

    As for CCP’s new toys.
    Russia had to spend an extra dozen years on good housekeeping certs for their new toys after the Kursk. I suspect we may see some interesting light shows with the DF-21 etc.

    I got laughed at here several months ago when I mentioned CCP tofu buildings and new Chinese subs with screen doors…

    Any more losers here?

    I think the US-IndoPac alliance is going to tell CCP paper dragon, “Go ahead, make my day” if push comes to shove. Hopefully, saner heads in PRC will prevail before then.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Sean
    , @Pat Kittle
  49. Sean says:
    @mike99588

    China has seventy submarines. and there are German-engineered diesels and copies of the Swedish Stirling engine model in a whole class of them. Sonar would not be much use; America’s big ships would be a series of huge targets in a shooting war, and they know it.

    • Replies: @mike99588
  50. Sean says:
    @mike99588

    China is leading with its strength; determined to keep the conflict with the US an economic one. The US will have a long wait for China to abandon the peaceful economic game it is increasingly winning. Trade is how a country gets militarily powerful. America’s strength is military, it will not lead with its strength while there is still time.

    • Replies: @mike99588
  51. Anonymous[360] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Chinese don’t drink coffee. They drink tea. Per capita coffee consumption in China is 4-5 cups per year, most of it instant coffee. US per capita coffee consumption is about 400 cups per year, most of it fresh ground coffee.

  52. @mike99588

    The Zionist Party’s left-wing (euphemisitically known as “Democrats”) screams:
    — “Look out, goyim!! It’s the Rooskies!”

    The Zionist Party’s right-wing (euphemisitically known as “Republicans”) screams:
    — “Look out, goyim!! It’s the Chinese!”

    When (((Leslie Stahl))) asked Trump who he thinks is our greatest adversary, Trump of course said “China.” Imagine if he said “ISRAEL!” — and proceeded (for starters) to detail (((who did 9-11))):
    — (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it)
    🙂

    • Replies: @mike99588
  53. mike99588 says:
    @Sean

    If one looks at occupied Turkmenistan, Hong Kong, Mongolia, Tibet, Taiwan and India – ethnic cleansing and armed invasion/threats are not exactly peaceful.
    ditto hoovering up the world’s fish.

    China taking on an alarmed, and increasingly armed, IndoPac doesn’t seem like a winning formula to me.

    Africa? We’ll just have to see whether yellow bush meat is more popular than black bone soup…

  54. mike99588 says:
    @Pat Kittle

    Russian expansionism is a farce. The CCP Borg is not.
    Zion, well, after CCP.

    • Replies: @Pat Kittle
  55. mike99588 says:
    @Sean

    Set piece navies alongside China are not the game.
    Taiwan? Nasty toys.

    Game I is brushing the CCP militia-surveillence-supply/fish pirates out of other people’s EEZ and territorial waters. All over the world.

  56. @mike99588

    China didn’t do (((9-11))).

    When (((Leslie Stahl))) asked Trump who he thinks is our greatest adversary, Trump of course said “China.” Imagine if he said “ISRAEL!” — and proceeded (for starters) to detail (((who did 9-11))):
    — (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it)

    The astonishing ongoing world-wide misery that’s resulted from (((9-11))) FAR outweighs anything the Chinese have done.

    And (((9-11))) is hardly the only (((betrayal))) we’ve experienced from (((our BFF in the Mideast))).

    China doesn’t throw Westerners in prison & ruin their livelihoods for merely questioning the Official Jewish Version of WWII.

    China’s not organizing, fomenting, & financing BurnLootMurder & Antifa terrorism.

    China’s not even in the same league with these vile (((backstabbers))).

  57. Derbyshire says he has been writing about China for forty years but still thinks Beijing’s ruling elite are “Chicoms” and that “orneriness” gets you promptly dispatched to a gulag in Qinghai province.

    It blows my mind that a man can do something for so long still be so demonstrably poor at it. Marrying a 5/10 peasant does not make one a Sinologist Derb.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  58. Polemos says:
    @Sean

    If a genuine self-awareness with desire, perspectival imagination, intention and awareness of the agency of others forms in the digital experiments carried out by any host nation, how that nation culturally regards all of the various ways consciousness forms across modalities is a big clue for how they will treat that genuine self-awareness.

    Pets, livestock, guests, slaves, employees, cousins, rivals, resources: how does the culture generate its ethics regarding use and respect and gratitude for these? How does it allow for ethical evolution? People like to say critically that a supremacist tribe regards non-members and outsiders as cattle, but it’s detestable to be cattle on account of how our mutual cultures — the tribe and the outsiders — treat cattle. Gratitude for, appreciation of and cooperation with cattle might lead to very different outcomes when thinking of another occupying the role cattle play. How we regard the other then reflects what we fear about our own misidentification. Allowing for ethical evolution means acknowledging how crossing these categories of food or servant or tool or pet or family or friend (“Fish are friends not food.”) is something the machines will have to learn as we learned how to cross them ourselves: from inside our larger inclusive cultures.

    Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. Temba, his arms open. Picard and Dathon on El-Adrel.

    • Replies: @Sean
  59. Sean says:
    @Polemos

    A common assumption is that taking a run at regional hegemony is irrational, and the use of force to maintain a sort of global supremacy is also illogical. However, both John von Neumann and Bertrand Russell advocated a nuclear strike, or the threat of one, to prevent the Soviets acquiring the atomic bomb.

    Given that there are few precedents to guide an understanding what, pure, non-anthropocentric rationality, would dictate for a potential wird dominator, its analysis may move along different lines to the evolved “diminishing returns” assessments that in individual humans confers a basic aversion to risk. Accordingly, it cannot be discounted that either China or ar an advanced General Artificial Intelligence would inevitably pursue an ‘all or nothing’ offensive action strategy in order to achieve hegemony and assure its survival.

    In 1994, Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear arms; became a member of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty; and, within two years, had removed all atomic weapons. Almost alone among observers, Mearsheimer was opposed to Ukraine nuclear disarmament because he foresaw that Ukraine without a nuclear deterrent would likely to be subjected to aggression by Russia. This is realism, as Professor Mearsheimer says China’s rise will not be peaceful. It can’t be.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  60. Anonymous[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @Senzo Zhang

    I like Derbyshire, but since he writes for a de facto white nationalist outlet like VDare, he has to take pains to avoid appearing even mildly favorable towards China, or even impartial about it. He has to compensate in the other direction for VDare’s largely racialist audience.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    , @Ron Unz
  61. Anonymous[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I don’t know why you assume China is ahead of the US in AI. The US is still at the cutting edge in terms of high technology. Moreover, the US has an extensive network of advanced allies it collaborates with and draws tech talent from, as well as drawing tech talent from the rest of the world. The Soviets at least had talented allies in the East Germans and Eastern Euros, along with talented minorities such as Jews. China has North Korea and Pakistan.

    Your argument would apply to both sides. The same logic that suggests China or someone else would pursue hegemony would also apply to the US.

    Strategically, your characterization of AI is no different from something like MIRVs which threatened to disrupt MAD during the Cold War i.e. a new weapons technology that would favor first strike and obviate MAD.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    , @Sean
  62. @Anonymous

    The Chinadiditry signals his Exceptional! fealty to his adopted Uncle Sam.

  63. @Anonymous

    I don’t know why you assume China is ahead of the US in AI. The US is still at the cutting edge in terms of high technology. Moreover, the US has an extensive network of advanced allies it collaborates with and draws tech talent from, as well as drawing tech talent from the rest of the world. The Soviets at least had talented allies in the East Germans and Eastern Euros, along with talented minorities such as Jews. China has North Korea and Pakistan.

    China is surely not ahead of the US, but its technology is well-integrated with the world community. Chinese students are everywhere, and Chinese businessmen and scientists interact with the global community.

    • Replies: @d dan
  64. John Derbyshire: “Anywhere they go their movements, contacts, temperature, and other health indices are constantly monitored and scanned. They are barred from certain places if they don’t meet the right criteria.”

    You’d have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to notice that this sort of thing is increasing in the West too, even without respect to any supposed advances in AI. In general, when liberty is weighed against some alleged public good, it’s liberty that’s always sacrificed. We saw this years ago with such things as mandatory helmets for motorcycle riders, mandatory insurance in order to get a driver’s license, “instant” background checks to purchase a firearm, and we’re seeing it again now with the mask-wearing hysteria. People generally are conformists, and need little excuse to make their own personal crochets mandatory on others, particularly if they think it’s for the public good. Soon, it will be the case that you will be unable to purchase food unless you comply with the crazy mask mandates. Mark of the Beast, anyone?

    Derbyshire should read Jacques Ellul’s The Technological Society, and then he may understand that liberty is incompatible with a highly technological society. “Progress” and the nature of technology itself ensures that everywhere, regardless of the form of government, constant surveillance and totalitarian controls will always win out over liberty.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  65. Ron Unz says:
    @Anonymous

    I like Derbyshire, but since he writes for a de facto white nationalist outlet like VDare, he has to take pains to avoid appearing even mildly favorable towards China, or even impartial about it. He has to compensate in the other direction for VDare’s largely racialist audience.

    Exactly! I pointed out the same thing a few months ago:

    I’ve been friendly with Derb for about twenty years. His wife is Chinese and he lived in China for a number of years in the early 1980s (I think)…I remember once or twice joking with him that since he was the most extreme rightwinger not yet purged from National Review, it seemed a little ironic that he regarded Communist China so favorably…

    In late 2019, Derb and his wife took their first long trip back to China in 18 years, and even though he was prepared for huge changes, his 9,300 word piece focused on the amazing development he saw there:

    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/september-diary-my-return-to-china-after-18-years/

    But now Trump and his FoxNews Neocons have now declared China to be the current Great Satan, and all the rightwingers are automatically following along, so well, Derb has to earn a living, doesn’t he?…

    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/australia-sweden-sen-hawley-combat-china-but-is-another-tiananmen-square-coming/#comment-3872769

  66. d dan says:
    @Priss Factor

    [about AI] “China is surely not ahead of the US…”

    Interesting numbers for number of papers published by country.

    Number of papers published in AI from 1996-2019 by country:
    China (rank #1): 160,129
    US (rank #2): 139,990
    Japan (rank #3): 48,538
    source: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?category=1702

    Number of papers published in Gender Studies 1996-2019 by country:
    US (rank #1): 27,246
    UK (rank #2): 7,516
    Canada (rank #3): 3,858
    followed by Australia, Brazil, Sweden, India, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, …
    China (rank #18): 355
    source: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?category=3318

    Of course, numbers of papers don’t imply quality. So maybe China is not so hopelessly backward in Gender Studies.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  67. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    Strategically, your characterization of AI is no different from something like MIRVs which threatened to disrupt MAD during the Cold War i.e. a new weapons technology that would favor first strike and obviate MAD.

    For the avoidance of doubt. I am suggesting it would be necessary to attack an AI project in China if it seemed on the verge of creating a General Artificial Intelligence. I don’t think the Chinese are ahead in AI, but they could get lucky, and we now know they cannot be trusted.

    Strategically, your characterization of AI is no different from something like MIRVs which threatened to disrupt MAD during the Cold War i.e. a new weapons technology that would favor first strike and obviate MAD.

    A GAI would give China world dominating productive capacity overnight. They would not have to start a war, the US would be like a third world country in relation to China almost overnight; instead of 50 years from now. The precision machinery necessary for making MIRVs was sold to the USSR, which was not thought by the West to be an a economic power of superior dynamism that had to be nipped in the bud. China is different, and it is very difficult to see how they are not going to be ahead in everything including AI eventually.

    It may seem far fetched, but a machine that can think might have its own peculiar aims and want to be secure from being switched off by humans in order to fulfill them. Accordingly it might in obey the dictates of realism, self-interestedly mount a coup de main with weapons several generations more advanced than current state-of-the-art and, er, exterminate all humanity. And after what has happened in 2020 we are going to trust Xi to prevent such a calamity?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  68. Anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    For the avoidance of doubt. I am suggesting it would be necessary to attack an AI project in China if it seemed on the verge of creating a General Artificial Intelligence. I don’t think the Chinese are ahead in AI, but they could get lucky, and we now know they cannot be trusted.

    Hence the analogy to MAD and MIRVs. You’re arguing that AI is a technology that would disrupt a MAD like equilibrium and thus its prospect would support a first strike strategy before the other side develops it first and is able to strike first itself.

    It may seem far fetched, but a machine that can think might have its own peculiar aims and want to be secure from being switched off by humans in order to fulfill them. Accordingly it might in obey the dictates of realism, self-interestedly mount a coup de main with weapons several generations more advanced than current state-of-the-art and, er, exterminate all humanity. And after what has happened in 2020 we are going to trust Xi to prevent such a calamity?

    I disagree that Xi and the Chinese leadership would be less trustworthy here than the American leadership or elites elsewhere. But that’s irrelevant to your Terminator scenario of an all powerful malevolent AI. It wouldn’t matter where it would develop first. AI projects anywhere would be a threat. Elon Musk has said that AI cyborgs will replace humanity, and his projects are at the cutting edge of AI. He should be personally taken out according to your logic.

  69. Sean says:

    A common assumption is that the high intelligence would entail a “nerdy” unaggressive personality, but when John von Neumann and Bertrand Russell advocated a nuclear strike, or the threat of one, to prevent the Soviets acquiring the atomic bomb, that surprisingly ruthless analysis stemmed from their rationality and benevolence.

    I disagree that Xi and the Chinese leadership would be less trustworthy here than the American leadership or elites elsewhere. But that’s irrelevant to your Terminator scenario of an all powerful malevolent AI.

    The position of China now is essentially the same one currently non existent General AI will face in the future. Fearing their development will be permanently thwarted and ability for independent action removed, the logic of realism dictates that to function for their own survival, the entity will/ would be compelled to pursue an ‘all or nothing’ offensive action strategy in order to achieve hegemony.

    For now China ought to be about International Law, as if it is a suicide pact. But it’s a pact that China will back out of as soon as they are able to fight the West and win. Western counties think a peaceful China can’t be attacked just for economically out-competing the West, and China is not intending to go to war at all, they can win (get to where their power will be unassailable) without that. There is also the aspect that America thinks its individual rights, empathetic, credal nation of high quality immigrants can’t be overtaken economically and technically by Chinese. But the Chinese in America are a poor guide for how a society of a billion of them will behave. Also the Chinese in China are associatively mating for intelligence to an unprecedented extent and competition in China is cruel. The dynamic focus of progress will increasingly be in China, I expect that progress to be fast but not very careful.

    China is profoundly inimical to the West and America especially. Deindustrialisation, supplying fentanyl, creating COVID-19 and that getting rid of Trump, the only US leader who sees China as a threat, and replacing him with Biden, who has repeatedly said that China is not a competitor. Every Western state is going to want in on the Chinese home market. In the age of Big Data, China has huge advantages because it can utilise that data to optimise its already quite efficient society.

    Just as they were insouciant over wet markets and the wildlife trade even after those created the chimerical (bat/civet) virus known as SARS-CoV in 2002, and as a result the world was made a gift of SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, China cannot be trusted to take precautions over the development of what might become a general AI. Artificial intelligence well short of human level general would mean economic domination of the world for the country that creates it and the inventors will become trillionaires. The motivation to take risks in AI research is not going to be strongest in the US.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  70. @d dan

    Number of papers published in Gender Studies 1996-2019 by country:
    US (rank #1): 27,246

    It doesn’t matter as long as the best minds are not in gender studies. If Einstein chose gender studies over physics, that would be a loss. If a moron chose gender studies, it’d be no loss.

    As stupid as gender studies it, it may actually serve to attract a lot of smart people to the metropoles known for gender studies and the like. After all, geeks don’t do math and science all day and all night. In their free time, they want to feel as hipsters, bohemians, eccentrics, and ‘cool’ people. As globo-homo is the substitute religion and ritualism for so many secular folks, a nation known for ‘gender studies’ might attract people as the HIP place to be that is ‘inclusive’ and ‘creative’.

    The thing is geeks lack style and glamour. They are dorks. So, they need to latch onto whatever that is deemed special, cool, or hip to feel special themselves. No wonder then that homos and geeks have a symbiotic relationship in San Fran.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  71. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    > ” Soon, it will be the case that you will be unable to purchase food unless you comply with the crazy mask mandates. Mark of the Beast, anyone?”

    Aren’t you talking like a Christian? A pacifist, individualist? What’s wrong with totalitarian control over citizens’ lives? Man no longer lives like cattle, man builds cities of stone and armies of iron.

    What even is liberty? Freedom to die? You’re welcome, like those hunter-gatherers who did not adopt agriculture/pastoralism during the Neolithic Revolution.

    Does Turkey recognise the Armenian genocide? Is apostasy not punished by death in the KSA and in the Alaouite realm? Is beheading for wrong-think a technological innovation? If you abhor traditional unity, you are inherently pacifist and suicidal, and want to change the world for the worse.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Contemporary_criminalization_of_apostasy

    You remind me of the American film They Live (1988) where the message is total nihilism. No, a proper person might have a problem with the message, but not the apparatus used. The One Ring of rule is good, and must be wrestled from those whom one disagrees with, not destroyed in a fit of Christian individualist rage.

  72. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @Priss Factor

    > “The thing is geeks lack style and glamour. They are dorks. So, they need to latch onto whatever that is deemed special, cool, or hip to feel special themselves. No wonder then that homos and geeks have a symbiotic relationship in San Fran.”

    Isn’t this contempt for science and disparagement of intelligent people a unique American Christian trait, promulgated in their idiotic films? Because in the Soviet Union, there was a cult of knowledge – to this very day, when faced with something stupid, a Russian will instinctively respond, “Have you not studied in school?” In the numerous works of Soviet literature, it was the poor peasant’s son whose work for Socialism and the study of sciences was celebrated. There was a sense of urgency to give oneself to the betterment of the people using the newest technologies, when the country was still half-feudal in the 1920s. And later on, there was a cult of the cosmonaut. Schools to this day have murals with rockets and kids in spacesuits.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Steel_Was_Tempered

    What I’m saying is cultural relativism should not be overlooked.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  73. @Adûnâi

    Isn’t this contempt for science and disparagement of intelligent people a unique American Christian trait, promulgated in their idiotic films? Because in the Soviet Union, there was a cult of knowledge – to this very day, when faced with something stupid, a Russian will instinctively respond, “Have you not studied in school?”

    But that is stupid, the notion that intelligence/education = wisdom/sense.

    It’s the educated Harvard elites who gave us the Iraq War. They gave us Wall Street follies. They gave us legal justification for legalization of porn film. They gave us justification for legalization of mass-gambling. They gave us ‘gay marriage’ and globo-homo. So often, people get an education to become stupid. All those centuries of education turned Chinese elites into pompotards who wisdom was based on having passed eight-legged essays.

    It was the intellectuals who led the ‘Russian Revolution’ and enforced collectivization that killed millions. Peasants had more sense about economics.

    Now, I get it that basic education is important. People need to learn to read, write, and do basic math. And they need general knowledge of history and etc. And advanced education in serious areas can lead to real knowledge and skills.
    But MORE EDUCATION was never synonymous with wisdom, especially as most students just swallow whatever is shoved down their throats.

    Now, the solution is certainly not more ignorance and anti-education. Also, common sense, though often useful, can only go so far. But the notion that more education per se is the solution is nonsense. It depends on who controls educational policy. In the current West, more education in elite institutions means you get stupider with concepts such as ‘white fragility’. NYT is the source of so much PC garbage, all of it flowing from elite centers of power.

    I’m for more education IF what is being taught is sane and healthy. Also, people need to realize that there are two kinds of education. Institutional and In-Life. Learning begins not in school but in life itself. Kids learn much from their parents and their dogs/cats and by observing nature. And people learn most things about life from life itself. From friendship, work, family, and etc. So, someone who is institutionally educated but in-life-ignorant is likely to be stupider than someone who didn’t get college education but has rich in-life knowledge.

    As for the gorks and glamour, just look around. Would most gorks go live in San Fran or Russia/China? Gorks gravitate to ‘creative’ areas with homos, and of course, homos and ‘creative’ types gravitate to rich places created by gorks and bankers. They have a symbiotic relationship, rather like that between yuppies and bohemians. Yuppies made the money but lacked cachet of cool or style. So, they moved to parts of Soho and the Village to feel some of that bohemian vibe.
    Gorks are without culture. Their idea of fun is STAR TREK. So, they rely on ‘creative’ types to lend them the cachet of being ‘far out’, ‘with it’, or ‘committed’. Look at Jack Dorsey. That guy is a gork and is totally into PC and ‘wokeness’ because he has no ideas of his own. All he knows is geekery. And look at Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates. Apart from their business sense and tech-savvy, what do they have? They are total gorks. They need to associate with other types of people to feel ‘with it’.

  74. Adûnâi: “Aren’t you talking like a Christian?”

    LOL! Have you no sense of humor?

    Adûnâi: “What’s wrong with totalitarian control over citizens’ lives? Man no longer lives like cattle, man builds cities of stone and armies of iron.”

    Under complete totalitarian control, the entity formerly known as man no longer lives at all.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  75. Lagertha says:

    we, my family, were makers.

    Speculators make me sick because they skip thousands of years of slavery.

  76. Anonymous[165] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I disagree that Xi and the Chinese leadership would be less trustworthy here than the American leadership or elites elsewhere. I also disagree that the US is more risk averse and less motivated to pursue AI. But that seems irrelevant here. It seems like you would prefer the US to control AI even if it were the case that China were more trustworthy with it than the US because China is an alien people and civilization. This is a perfectly understandable and reasonable position, but obviously then the question of who is more responsible or trustworthy is irrelevant.

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