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You Really Don't Want to Get Ventilated
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From a study of hospitals in New York:

Among the 2634 patients who were discharged or had died at the study end point, during hospitalization, 373 (14.2%) were treated in the ICU, 320 (12.2%) received invasive
mechanical ventilation, 81 (3.2%) were treated with kidney replacement therapy, and 553 (21%) died (Table 5). Mortality for those who received mechanical ventilation was 88.1%
(n = 282). Mortality rates for those who received mechanical ventilation in the 18-to-65 and older-than-65 age groups were 76.4% and 97.2%, respectively. Mortality rates for those in the 18-to-65 and older-than-65 age groups who did not receive mechanical ventilation were 19.8% and 26.6%, respectively.

 
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  1. Well, the racial angle should prove interesting, if nothing else. America was excoriated throughout the mass media for not putting enough black patients on ventilators. Now that same mass media can condemn us for putting too many black patients on ventilators. It’s almost like, naah..

    • Replies: @bomag

    It’s almost like...
     
    Indeed.

    Another example is being told travel from China was banned 'cause we just can't help our racism, then being told we didn't do it soon enough 'cause we don't care enough about women and minorities.

  2. “You really don’t want to get ventilated”

    Good advice, I’ll make sure to stay at least six feet away from Roaring Twenties gangsters and their Tommy guns.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @Kronos
    Good luck with that. I hear their cars are pretty fast as well...

    https://youtu.be/LlfOckjXxLU
    , @fish

    “You really don’t want to get ventilated”
     
    I thought Steve had pivoted to a discussion about summer weekends in Chicago!


    .....silly me!
    , @Dr. Krieger
    He's still an artist with a Thompson.
    https://youtu.be/vgz-CKRzs-4?=t105s
  3. You Really Don’t Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    “…who did not receive mechanical ventilation …” – Because they did not need it. Isn’t that people get ventilated when they are suffocating or drowning in fluids and ventilation postpones their imminent death. Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.
    , @Jack D

    Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?
     
    If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it. We didn't (largely still don't) know what to do with people who were in the early stage of the disease but at high risk for progressing so our advice was "stay home and receive no treatment until the virus has ravaged your body and destroyed you lungs, then when you can no longer breath come see us and we will stick you on a ventilator." Maybe it's one of those things like masks where they were just lying to us because they knew that they didn't have the resources anyway.
    , @Alice
    People were been put on ventilators because nurses and doctors thought it protected nurses and doctors, not because it helped patients.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1253417451754098689

    read the thread.
    , @Michael S

    You Really Don’t Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated
     
    Yes, in the sense that the differential in mortality doesn't prove that ventilators are actually killing people - not a controlled experiment.

    No, in the sense that an intervention that fails 90% of the time obviously isn't an effective intervention. If you go on a ventilator, you're probably going to die whether the ventilator is there or not. And if I were on my death bed, I might very well want to try for a 10% hail mary anyway, but for all we know, the same 10% might recover without a ventilator. No one's going to do a controlled experiment, but it's quite possible that the real NNT for ventilators [in CV cases] is north of 50.

    Ventilation is equivalent to a priest reading you your last rites - and a lot of folks would probably rather have an actual priest do that.
  4. @utu
    You Really Don't Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    "...who did not receive mechanical ventilation ..." - Because they did not need it. Isn't that people get ventilated when they are suffocating or drowning in fluids and ventilation postpones their imminent death. Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven’t proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    • Replies: @utu
    " haven’t proven as critical as hoped for" - Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived. Perhaps they would suffocate/drown without it. People are not put on ventilators as a treatment. It is not a therapy. It is the last resort life prolonging measure in hope that by keeping the patient alive a bit longer a cure, a healing or a miracle would happen. Nobody would want to get to the point that ventilating was necessary but once at that point almost everybody would beg to get ventilated.

    I wonder if there are any data on patients who were put on ECMO.

    Yes, 0.9% is pretty bad. But not so long ago almost everybody thought it would be worse.
    , @AnotherDad
    I didn't want to get ventilated before this virus. Sounds like a crappy experience.


    But i think this is good news.

    I'd like to see a vaccine. But if it's going to be much more difficult to develop one that is safe--doesn't make the situation worse with cytokine storms, etc.--and ergo the best approach will be letting the population get the bug and develop herd immunity ... then i'd much rather that the effective therapies be less labor intensive ones that are just advice--e.g. lie on your stomach--or can be cranked out of a factory--e.g. anti-viral meds or CPAP machines and oxygen concentrators. Cutting a ridiculously labor-intensive, expensive therapy out of the mix--goodness.

    Actually, that's my thinking beyond this virus. There is too much "high-touch" medicine ... because people don't directly pay for it. What modern medicine can for certain particular "let's go fix it" pathologies--e.g. get your appendix out--is great. But in general there's a lot of unnecessary expensive medical labor that is just churn. In particular, expensive communication that could be done--and done better--by expert systems online. But also super-expensive hospital care that yields little useful "life".
    , @Barnard
    Here is a local version of what you were calling for a few days ago, essentially a PSA telling people not to ignore signs of a heart attack or stroke. The hospital system putting this out furloughed over 600 employees last week.


    https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/dell-rapids/2020/04/23/even-covid-19-era-health-emergencies-need-quick-action/3017815001/
    , @obwandiyag
    An acquaintance who is a geriatric nurse tells me that the trick to ventilators is that every patient is different, and so you have to adjust the ventilation very very carefully to each patient's condition.

    Something tells me they're not doing this. If I know the American way, they're just hooking them up and turning it up to overdrive and going out for a smoke.

    , @Magyar
    Current working theory, let’s see what next 6 months brings:

    The case for ventilators as therapeutic for coronavirus has been way overstated. Coronavirus hit and hospitals didn’t have any idea on how to treat + (ostensibly) reimbursement for ventilator treatment is incredibly lucrative. So, everyone in bad shape goes on a ventilator automatically in early days of this thing. Media hypes fear-porn and ventilators even more. “Shortage” of ventilators occurs.

    Ironically and tragically, ventilators are actually iatrogenic for most with coronavirus and help kill people by stressing their lungs further and pushing them right over the edge.

    This further feeds hype cycle/story of super deadly coronavirus. ie death rates are over-inflated (excuse the pun) because of ventilator caused deaths.

    Doctors begin to notice the incredibly high death rates on ventilated patients and start to make adjustments to treatment ie does not involve ventilation. There is no more ventilator shortage anymore.

    Net-net: some people (with pre-existing conditions) would have died regardless - but there are thousands of people dead b/c of ventilators that may have survived otherwise. Mortality rates drop once ventilators are phased out of treatment plans.

    In six months, this is all understood but goes unspoken amongst doctors.
    , @Anonymous

    On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.
     
    Doesn’t NYC have one of the youngest populations in the country?
  5. So, it’s what Steve had been writing about:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/device-one-doctor-says-covid-132933672.html

    The device one doctor says you should have in COVID-19 fight

  6. The forced air approach is useless in severe cases. Bronchodilator plus expectorant might work, but will come with a host of other issues. How do we drain someone’s lungs without collapsing them?

    • Replies: @kikz
    wouldn't it have been prudent to advocate the widespread public use of cheap/avail expectorants such as (generic) Guaifenesin prophylactically to aid in preventing (degree of illness/infection of pulmonary edema - pneumonia) need for vent? if not, why not?

    generic Guaif is easily found in same Mg dosage as brand names (Mucinex) and costs about .25 of the brand. 25-30 pills < $2.00

    Only caveat, push the fluids, gotta get the gunk up and out.
  7. And you’re not going to get ventilated Steve

    The political angles are too strong for Covid-19 to think this isn’t just a bad flu being used for Machiavellian political purposes.

    I had kids in my high school die of the flu. No one made a fuss. I heard stories of the Hong Kong Flu. No one cared. I remember a girl at some nearby school died from a reaction to Robitussin Cough Syrup when she was 16. No one took Robitussin off the shelves.

    These were young people dying. No one cared. H1N1…no one cared.

    This flu only affects people in Democratic states. So. Someone’s making stuff up.

    Iceland’s fine, Sweden’s fine, Denmark’s fine, Northern Italy despite what anyone says is fine. Even the Homeless at the Boston Shelters are Fine.

    I call b.s.

    I also think something suspicious is going on in New York. A bunch of homeless people being rounded up for the kill in order to boost Covid-19 numbers?

    I wouldn’t put it past them.

    And yes, that’s what I actually think. I think the Libs are so crazy they would do something like that. They need bodies.

  8. A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    • Troll: Desiderius
    • Replies: @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.
    , @Mr. Anon

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires.
     
    Quack remedies? Like, perhaps, ventillators? Unfortunately, there are also quacks in the medical profession. And a fair number of doctors and nurses are just lazy.

    People forget, especially now that we are marinated in propaganda telling us to thank our "health care heroes" - actually telling us to obey them without question - that half of all doctors and nurses are below average.
    , @Charles
    If you continue using correct punctuation, good grammar, and stating what you want stated in succinct sentences, people will not respect nor pay much attention to you. At least that's been my experience.
    , @anon
    On my local TV stations, I am seeing a sudden surge in advertising by many teleevangelists and assorted faith people urging people to take care of their business with God because of Covid. Always with a convenient 800 number to call or a website. I am sure they all accept Mastercard or Visa. Some, not even attempting to hide how the government money from stimulus etc., rightfully belongs to God (fully or partly) because .... Covid.
    , @XYZ (no Mr.)
    https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/man-who-died-ingesting-fish-tank-cleaner-remembered-as-intelligent-levelheaded/

    Of course. And yes, partial records for the court case involving Wanda Lenius are available online. Don't take the Free Beacon's word for it. I don't, as with all media.

    https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20150226603

    https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914e2ddadd7b049348f592a

    Sigh. If only President Trump hadn't pushed his quackery poor Gary Lenius would still be alive to continue being berated and beaten by his wife.

    Tis a sad world we live in. But at least we know who is always at fault: Trump.
    , @danand
    Here is the lead-in and "bleach" comments by President Trump at yesterdays press conference. Does not seem to me as though he is advocating Bleach as the new Heroin; more just typical Trump style pontificating:

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BILL BRYAN: If I can have my next slide.

    And when that — while that comes up, you’ll see a number of some practical applications. For example, increasing the temperature and humidity of potentially contaminated indoor spaces appears to reduce the stability of the virus. And extra care may be warranted for dry environments that do not have exposure to solar light.

    We’re also testing disinfectants readily available. We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids. And I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes; isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing — just spraying it on and letting it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster. We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.

    This is not the end of our work as we continue to characterize this virus and integrate our findings into practical applications to mitigate exposure and transmission. I would like to thank the President and thank the Vice President for their ongoing support and leadership to the department and for their work in addressing this pandemic. I would also like to thank the scientists, not only in S&T and the NBACC, but to the larger scientific and R&D community.

    Thank you very much.

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Bill.

    Q Mr. Bryan —

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you’re going to test that too. It sounds interesting.

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We’ll get to the right folks who could.

    THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

    So we’ll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute, that’s — that’s pretty powerful.


    QUESTION, PRESS: But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

    THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

     

  9. I’ve read that ventilators might not be the ideal treatment. It’s possible that many people died because of too much reliance on ventilators and other wrong techniques.

    Doctors and nurses are not magicians and sometimes they are overwhelmed. Sometimes they just follow the easiest or standard procedure.

    I remember once a friend of mine was taken to the hospital… Throwing up and feeling dizzy… Doctors and nurses were clueless… Were thinking about food poisoning… Wanted to to a stomach pumping… I found a better diagnostic online by googling the symptoms. Turns out I was right, it was labyrinthitis.

  10. New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Spitting, Screaming, Bodies Bumping up Against Each other, Old Dudes, All Men

    Why are there no stats?

    Of all the places to have a super spreader event, that would be it.

    Why isn’t there one?

    If Corona was a real thing, especially in New York, at least 10% of those traders would be dead given age, maleness, drinking, and overall stress levels.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    I checked there are only 500 floor traders. But I think that's enough for something to have occurred
    , @anon
    New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Was closed on March 23, 2020, all trading moved to electronic means.

    Search terms: nyse floor closed
    First result:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/nyse-to-temporarily-close-trading-floor-move-to-electronic-trading-because-of-coronavirus.html

    Search engines are cool.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    HFT programs are pretty safe. They do most of the "work" now in this "industry" and make the most money, They are not exactly superspreaders unless their programmers are really sloppy guys like you see in the movies.
  11. @Thoughts
    New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Spitting, Screaming, Bodies Bumping up Against Each other, Old Dudes, All Men

    Why are there no stats?

    Of all the places to have a super spreader event, that would be it.

    Why isn't there one?

    If Corona was a real thing, especially in New York, at least 10% of those traders would be dead given age, maleness, drinking, and overall stress levels.

    I checked there are only 500 floor traders. But I think that’s enough for something to have occurred

    • Replies: @GalenMD
    480 out of 2,000 employees at Cargill meatpacking plant in Calgary tested positive for COVID-19. One death was recorded. Allegedly, the infection spread because they are foreigners living in crowded boarding houses, and carpooling to work from one specific neighborhood of the city.
  12. It ranks up there with being cateterized on my list of medical procedures I would prefer to pass on. I think my living will says no vents. I better check that.

    • Replies: @moshe
    Yeah. I ought to set one up I suppose. I don't know whether intubation can include other things but there must be a way to set uo a will that instructs doctors about their allowances with my health and, ideally, when to administer a lethal dose of morphine.

    It's good to have a doctor in the family. Unfortunately, the hitherto go-to, my maternal uncle has come down with parkisons, my second cousin is an asshole of the highest order and my brother's family responsibilities caused a cessation of his medical studies. Unfortunately, my mother, whom I trust 100% to ensure I get the right medical care, is religious en extremus and might not toss me into chryonic suspension should the time be right.

    More concerning is why the hell I should even be thinking about such things!

    Ironically it's an article from the NYTimes with good news that brings me to such doubts.



    The Latest NYT Headline:

    Nearly All Patients Hospitalized With Covid-19 Had Chronic Health Issues, Study Finds

    I can't say for certain what that means other than that they list the three chronic issues as being obesity, high blood pressure, and diabetes.


    By strict medical terms my BMI just crosses over into "moderately obesity (you would be surprised how small a gut is required for such a designation)". I also have no idea whether I have diabetes or high blood pressure.

    According to modern health cultural shaming and the lucrative medical industry I should have both. I eat with no regard to paid to any special diet, I've just hit what they call middle age and I love sugary things.

    But strangely I feel fine.

    Am I "at risk"? I mean, would I count as having "chronic health issues" if I were hospitalized with Covid?

    Damn if I know.

    I have continually, in the most douchey manner, reminded everyone that I said from the start - and throughout - that this is a dangerous hysteria likely to up the hypochondria of most people. What I failed to mention is that I'm not entirely immune to it myself. Is anyone?

    I haven't thought about my health in years. Now I can't help but wonder. Did I have Covid? Will I have Covid? Will I die from it?

    I'm more protected from such attacks on my psyche than most people but only a hermit in the woods, protected from the thoughts and worries of all other men (and women) is fully immune.

    Only Simeon Bar Yochai and Zarathustra are vouchsafed safety.

    And so, I am not annoyed. Not only that I got hoarse from shouting "You're All Mad!" but whether my hoarseness may have other meanings as well.

    A few weeks ago I walked across the tracks to a gang of Gypsy Railroad Scavengers to demand a puff from the hash they were smoking. Today, with the world coming around to my own point of view, I steered clear of some pleasant kids who were smoking the same.

    The hypochondria came to me late. As a Rebel it was easy to have confidence in my extraordinary mind. As the war winds down it's harder to have confidence in any sense of extraordinary health.

    Logic dictates that I'm fine, but with the fight over, my own sense of invulnerability winds down, as I return to being a slightly middle age, slightly overweight, omnivore, un-extraordinary among the masses. And, for the first time in over a dozen years, prompted by nothing but the hysteria of others, the fear sensors in my mind consider the question whether I have some undiagnosed "chronic health issue" too.

    It annoys me to discover that there has apparently been a tiny sleeper cell of irrational hypochondria dormant in my own mind, awaiting the call of The New York Times. And for the first time, my own sense of mental impenitrability is shaken and it makes me mad.

    C'est la vie mes amis!
  13. @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    ” haven’t proven as critical as hoped for” – Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived. Perhaps they would suffocate/drown without it. People are not put on ventilators as a treatment. It is not a therapy. It is the last resort life prolonging measure in hope that by keeping the patient alive a bit longer a cure, a healing or a miracle would happen. Nobody would want to get to the point that ventilating was necessary but once at that point almost everybody would beg to get ventilated.

    I wonder if there are any data on patients who were put on ECMO.

    Yes, 0.9% is pretty bad. But not so long ago almost everybody thought it would be worse.

    • Replies: @Bert
    It will get worse. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20060160v2.full.pdf


    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald's theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.

    The dumbasses are never going to get their economy back by promoting greater virulence. So sad.

    , @Kratoklastes

    Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived.
     
    That's nonsense.

    It's like saying that a batter who gets on base 11.9% of the time should be kept on the team. (Note: 'on base' rather than 'base hit': the 11.9% getting walked or hit by the ball).

    It is now pretty clear that personnel-intensive alternatives (encouraging expectoration, etc) are superior to forcing oxygen-rich air into a lung filling up with sputum.

    I speculated some time ago that ventilators seemed like a weird thing to do - even as a last resort - but that perhaps that it was a preferred protocol mostly because it's not personnel-intensive.

    The medical profession could really ramp up the bodycount if they had more ventilators.

    Notice how media midwits like Sanjay Fucktard Gupta are no longer braying about those 100,000 ventilators that GM was going to be forced to produce? Notice how there's no daily story featuring a telegenic 'hero' ICU nurse with lovely brown eyes telling horror stories about how they need those ventilators STAT?

    How odd - it's all gone quiet. And not a fucking hint of contrition from those fucking arseholes.

    As others have said: for this alone, MEDIA DELENDA EST.
  14. My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)
    , @Kaz
    Doctors treated her for her stroke and colon cancer surgery right..?
    , @bomag
    Generally agree, but there is a bias in favor of action, so "bring in the machine that goes bing".

    It will be interesting if the postponed medical procedures during this lockdown will result in better; worse; or neutral outcomes.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    About ten years ago I did what most of my acquaintances, who work in the medical field, did. I had do not intubate (DNI) and do not ressucitate (DNR) instructions added to my medical records. My PCP, who is the same age as me, tried to talk me out of this until I got him to admit he'd done the same.
    , @JMcG
    I agree, but it’s not as easy as you say, especially if it’s not you making the call when it comes down to it. Both my parents had DNRs, both were very clear eyed when they had them drawn up. Unfortunately, both were required. It’s easy to turn down ventilation, much harder to turn down a feeding tube. Multiply the difficulty by the number of siblings involved. There will be arguments about starving your loved one to death. Arguments that can cause terminal damage to relationships. Have a very, very clear eyed discussion with all of those who might be involved in such a decision on your behalf. Keep in mind that a feeding tube can last for a significant period and be an ongoing source of acrimony.
    , @MBlanc46
    Nicely put, NJTC.
  15. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    . Thanks:

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    , @BenKenobi
    Achmed, just copy-and-paste it from anywhere else in the thread when writing your comment.
    , @res
    Easiest way is to cut and paste it from:
    Replies:
    , @danand

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)
     
    Mr. Newman try typing this:

    & b u l l ;

    with no spaces to get the bullet you are looking for. With the spaces removed it looks like this:



    If you want to insert, add, etc.... you can find a few (I say few because there are so many HTML Name Codes available) at this reference:

    https://www.nouilles.info/keyboard_shortcuts.html

    (For posting here, at UNZ, many of the "HTML Name Code", left column, symbols/characters will work.)
    , @Kratoklastes
    I use & emsp; & emsp; & bull; & emsp; & emsp; (without the spaces). The em-spaces give more reliable spacing than spacebar.

    More accurately I use -u-[space] and AutoHotKey does the rest (likewise -bq-[space] for blockquotes etc). If I do HTML entities by hand I always forget the semicolon (I blame Python).
  16. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    Doctors treated her for her stroke and colon cancer surgery right..?

  17. anon[377] • Disclaimer says:

    Not having to deal with peer review is the newest white privilege:

    “In the physics community we have a process for evaluating new ideas called ‘peer review.’ Being rich isn’t a ‘get out of peer review free’ card,” said University of New Hampshire physicist Chanda Prescod-Weinstein in a tweeted statement. “I refuse to give time to the work [of] someone who doesn’t respect the community standards that I am required to obey. I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist does this year.”

    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/04/the-trouble-with-stephen-wolframs-new-fundamental-theory-of-physics/

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist does this year.
     
    i.e.

    I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist -LIKE ME, CHANDA PRESCOD WEINSTEIN, Ph.D. - does this year.
    , @SimpleSong
    Such an odd thing for the guy to say...I'm not qualified to evaluate Wolfram's theories, but he's putting it out there for everyone to read, reject, build upon, etc.--isn't that pretty much the essence of peer review? Sure, he's leveraging his fame, but at the end of the day his ideas will have to stand on their own. I mean it's standard of practice to submit unreviewed stuff to the arXiv all the time. Wolfram's doing peer review, it's just not the model of submitting to a journal and having two or three peers review. But the reason for that model is people only have so much bandwidth to read papers and most people aren't willing to read stuff that hasn't been pre-vetted. If you are famous enough that people are willing to read your stuff regardless, then why not?
  18. Does the hospital get it’s $13,000 per ventilator usage no matter how short the stay, survive, or not?

    • Replies: @Mehen

    Does the hospital get it’s $13,000 per ventilator usage no matter how short the stay, survive, or not?
     
    I believe the 13k is for simply admitting a Covid patient. They get 39k for using a ventilator.
    , @Bill Jones
    It's $13k per admission for the WuFlu , The Vent gets them $39k.
    Why do you think Cuomo was so anxious to get them all moved from the Rubes Upstate to the True Believers?
  19. As I commented in another thread, bad medical care in hospitals is one of the leading killers in America.

    Using a weighted average of the 4 studies, a lower limit of 210,000 deaths per year was associated with preventable harm in hospitals. Given limitations in the search capability of the Global Trigger Tool and the incompleteness of medical records on which the Tool depends, the true number of premature deaths associated with preventable harm to patients was estimated at more than 400,000 per year. Serious harm seems to be 10- to 20-fold more common than lethal harm.

    source: https://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    Wait a minute - but I thought heroic Nurses of Color were busy saving lives in between all the time they spend alternatively posing stoically with crossed arms or twerking in tiktok videos?
  20. I had an appointment with my cardiologist a few weeks ago to get my meds re-upped (conducted over facetime). He very pointedly asked if my “living will” was up to date and handy (it is). We had discussed in the past that death is inevitable, but some ways are more unpleasant than others.

    I’ll pass if they offer to ventilate me.

  21. @Mr McKenna
    Well, the racial angle should prove interesting, if nothing else. America was excoriated throughout the mass media for not putting enough black patients on ventilators. Now that same mass media can condemn us for putting too many black patients on ventilators. It's almost like, naah..

    It’s almost like…

    Indeed.

    Another example is being told travel from China was banned ’cause we just can’t help our racism, then being told we didn’t do it soon enough ’cause we don’t care enough about women and minorities.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
  22. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    Generally agree, but there is a bias in favor of action, so “bring in the machine that goes bing”.

    It will be interesting if the postponed medical procedures during this lockdown will result in better; worse; or neutral outcomes.

  23. @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    I didn’t want to get ventilated before this virus. Sounds like a crappy experience.

    But i think this is good news.

    I’d like to see a vaccine. But if it’s going to be much more difficult to develop one that is safe–doesn’t make the situation worse with cytokine storms, etc.–and ergo the best approach will be letting the population get the bug and develop herd immunity … then i’d much rather that the effective therapies be less labor intensive ones that are just advice–e.g. lie on your stomach–or can be cranked out of a factory–e.g. anti-viral meds or CPAP machines and oxygen concentrators. Cutting a ridiculously labor-intensive, expensive therapy out of the mix–goodness.

    Actually, that’s my thinking beyond this virus. There is too much “high-touch” medicine … because people don’t directly pay for it. What modern medicine can for certain particular “let’s go fix it” pathologies–e.g. get your appendix out–is great. But in general there’s a lot of unnecessary expensive medical labor that is just churn. In particular, expensive communication that could be done–and done better–by expert systems online. But also super-expensive hospital care that yields little useful “life”.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  24. @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    I somewhat agree, but it’s a bit more complicated.

    Trump’s hydroxychloroquine wasn’t from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results–which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on “quack remedies” it’s an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we’ve seen is some bad and slothful work by the “public health” and “medical establishment”. Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying “let’s wait for the experts to pronounce” isn’t all that compelling. The “experts” are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    • Agree: ic1000, Desiderius, res
    • Replies: @Jack D
    No one (in their right mind) gets medical advice on what drugs to take from the President on TV. Trump was just being Trump, the eternal optimist and Positive Thinker. Only those with their own disease (TDS) thought that he was giving improper medical advice.
    , @anon
    Not only that, President Trump was not suggesting some crazy ideas. His suggestions have some currency in medical research.

    e.g. Intravenous injection of household bleach.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416339

    Ultraviolet light treatment

    https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/treatment/other/ultraviolet-light

    Phototherapy for Jaundice

    https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1894477-overview

    President Trump may not be a M.D. or a Ph.D. , but he is an intelligent person exploring some out of the box thinking to alleviate the suffering of Americans.
    , @ic1000
    Trump had no business opining about hydroxychloroquine, one way or another. But he did. The mainstream media then applied playground logic to the situation, "If Trump thinks it's good then our duty is to prove that it's awful."

    Perhaps my favorite article (beating out scores of WaPo stories) was NPR's "COVID-19 Patients Given Unproven Drug In Texas Nursing Home In 'Disconcerting' Move" from April 10th, attempting to get a Texas nursing home doctor sacked for being willing to try hydroxychloroquine on some of his infected patients.

    Reporter Vanessa Romo may not trained in virology, gerontology, or pulmonology. But since she can say "Don't just do something, stand there!," she's a much better medico than the Orange Man Bad acolyte she profiled.
    , @Desiderius
    Mason is always there to let us know the stupidest take from MSNBC/CNN on any given day.

    Valuable service

    , @anonymous
    Hydroxychloroquine works by making it more difficult for the virus to enter the cell by altering the PH of the cell wall. Studies of Hydroxychloroquine used alone without in combination with Zinc, Antibiotics(AZ), Vitamin D3 and C have proved disappointing. But that is exactly what the Chinese said would happen. Were western medical establishments even listening???? Would they have unless Trump acted?

    See:
    ttps://indigonaturals.net/blogs/news/how-does-hydroxychloroquine-work-for-coronavirus-why-it-may-be-a-game-changer

    Why exactly is Trump wrong for attempting to light a fire under the US big Pharma/Healthcare establishment? Especially when Big Pharma is saying that there will be no vaccine available for 18 months out of one corner of their mouths. Meanwhile Big Pharms is whispering that some viruses like SARS and Dengue fever do not lend themselves to remedy by vaccine without great risk(of binding antibody side effects) which has been known for decades now.

    Not to mention that Big Pharma is admitting that their repurposed expensive and limited in supply antivirals like redemsivir are either proving disappointing or no more effective than Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin.

    Hydroxychloroquine for now seem to be one of best front line defense against the virus. It helps to limit the patient's viral load long enough so that one's Innate Immune system is not overwhelmed or overreacts while buying time for the adaptive immune system to hopefully kick and begin producing antibodies which make take 7-10 days.

    Innate vs Adaptive Systems
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8IBfZrI2fg

    Likewise Ivermetcin seems promising by actually limiting virus reproduction inside the cell.

    COVID-19 and Ivermectin, We Finally Have Some Clinical Trial Data!
    230 views •Apr 24, 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z1Oc4_99sk

    Again I doubt Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin are seen as cures, but if used early enough will buy time for more patients' own adaptive immune systems to respond with antibodies.

    Like Steve is saying LETS KEEP THEM OFF THE VENTILATORS!!!!
    , @Jonathan Mason

    Trump’s hydroxychloroquine wasn’t from left field.
     
    Sure, hydroxychloroquine is a drug that possibly has some potential role in treating certain patients, but one hears stories about doctors being fired from their positions or just vilified for disagreeing with Trump over this, that is the problem.

    In the medical world people do disagree about the most effective ways to treat various conditions, but when the facts change, people usually change their minds without animosity.
  25. @utu
    You Really Don't Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    "...who did not receive mechanical ventilation ..." - Because they did not need it. Isn't that people get ventilated when they are suffocating or drowning in fluids and ventilation postpones their imminent death. Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it. We didn’t (largely still don’t) know what to do with people who were in the early stage of the disease but at high risk for progressing so our advice was “stay home and receive no treatment until the virus has ravaged your body and destroyed you lungs, then when you can no longer breath come see us and we will stick you on a ventilator.” Maybe it’s one of those things like masks where they were just lying to us because they knew that they didn’t have the resources anyway.

    • Replies: @utu
    "If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it." - Ventilating is not a therapy. W/o it you suffocate/ drown in fluids and die. It is to keep you alive for a bit longer so healing and medications and prayers have more time to work. Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.
  26. @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    No one (in their right mind) gets medical advice on what drugs to take from the President on TV. Trump was just being Trump, the eternal optimist and Positive Thinker. Only those with their own disease (TDS) thought that he was giving improper medical advice.

    • Agree: Jonathan Silber
    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8253467/PIERS-MORGAN-President-Trumps-batsh-t-crazy-coronavirus-cure-theories-going-kill-people.html

    Even an old friend of Trump disagrees.

    Obviously one hopes that no one will follow the advice of the President, but shouldn't his press conferences be made X-rated in case impressionable youngsters take his words to heart?

    Why do you think phone scammers spend all day trying to scam people with stupid offers? It is because there are lots of people who are elderly, half-demented, plain stupid, or just have a limited command of English and lack of knowledge of scams who make these things profitable.

    But what is the point of the President doing his daily stand-up comic routine if no one is supposed to take him seriously?
  27. @utu
    You Really Don't Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    "...who did not receive mechanical ventilation ..." - Because they did not need it. Isn't that people get ventilated when they are suffocating or drowning in fluids and ventilation postpones their imminent death. Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    People were been put on ventilators because nurses and doctors thought it protected nurses and doctors, not because it helped patients.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1253417451754098689

    read the thread.

    • Replies: @utu
    Thanks for the link.

    "People were been put on ventilators because nurses and doctors thought it protected nurses and doctors, not because it helped patients." - This is a serious allegation that if true would/should lead to a criminal investigation. I found that intubation shield (w/o intubation) are used for protection:

    Jefferson County Health Center Using Intubation Shields To Protect Staff From Virus
    https://www.kyoutv.com/home/2020/04/08/jefferson-county-health-center-using-intubation-shields-to-protect-staff-from-virus/

    I watched interview with Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell who now is kind of a whistleblower on the ventilators issue and protocols that have been used. However I haven't heard him saying that "ventilators are killing people" as it is being repeated over and over on the twitter thread you linked.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elgct0nOcKY

    Then I checked on the protocols that they have been following which were developed for ARDS.

    Focus on ventilation and ARD: recent insights (2019)
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-019-05804-w

    Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell said that new guidelines are being developed and there is some work from Italy: Lots of oxygen at low pressure, which for me is contradiction. As it is the pressure that determines how much oxygen there is. He no longer is in ICU because he could not take it or Arther did not agree with the protocols thy used.
  28. If the ventilators are so ineffective what was the point of laying off 50% of the workforce in a desperate attempt to flatten the curve? The Branch Covidians would have a lot of explaining to do in a normal world, but this is clown world so I expect them to give themselves awards.

  29. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "You really don't want to get ventilated"

    Good advice, I'll make sure to stay at least six feet away from Roaring Twenties gangsters and their Tommy guns.

    Good luck with that. I hear their cars are pretty fast as well…

  30. @Jack D

    Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?
     
    If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it. We didn't (largely still don't) know what to do with people who were in the early stage of the disease but at high risk for progressing so our advice was "stay home and receive no treatment until the virus has ravaged your body and destroyed you lungs, then when you can no longer breath come see us and we will stick you on a ventilator." Maybe it's one of those things like masks where they were just lying to us because they knew that they didn't have the resources anyway.

    “If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it.” – Ventilating is not a therapy. W/o it you suffocate/ drown in fluids and die. It is to keep you alive for a bit longer so healing and medications and prayers have more time to work. Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.

    • Replies: @res

    Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.
     
    We don't know that. You need a RCT to determine the effect. How many of those people would have recovered without a ventilator?

    This is even more true when there are less invasive treatment alternatives.
  31. would help a lot to have each person who tests positive to be contacted and interviewed. Ask how frequently they travel, if they work in an office, which supermarket they go to, how many children, use public transportation, … Get their age, BMI, ethnicity, have a blood test done like when a person has an annual physical.

    • Replies: @Alice
    like we do with the flu?

    Wait, we don't do that with the flu? Why not?
  32. are there day to day numbers on the number of infections and number of deaths from the virus? Would like to see how the death and recovery rate are changing as doctors become more knowledgeable on treatment.

    • Replies: @Alice
    Sir, do you really not know that data has been available at your state or county level, probably on their website, for the last month? You can build the data tables yourself. Or you can look and see what some other good folks have done.

    But if you had been paying attention, you'd know that our CDC allowd states to code deaths differently, now allowing "suspected death with" instead if "test confirmed death by". So you can no longer compare apples to apples and must look at all-cause mortality. the most telling indicator is thr number currently hospitalized, and number of ICU beds filled. if you go back and look at the U W imhe data, you'll see the outrageous projections, but you might also see your state's total available beds.

    A helpful primer for you would be the red-pilling Alex Berenson's twitter feed.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1246795837080035333&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerlineblog.com%2Farchives%2F2020%2F04%2Fattention-citizens.php
  33. It seems like mechanical ventilation isn’t necessarily a lifesaver for older folks even for conditions other than COVID-19.

    This article from 2018 says that 1/3 of patients over 65 and 1/2 of those over 90 who get intubated die.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/health/breathing-tubes-intubation-older-patients.html

    Only 25% of those over 65 get discharged from the hospital to go home, for 80-84 years old that figure drops to 19% and to 14% for those over 90.

    Of those who do survive, almost half of those over 70 will die within the year (that number if based on the study linked in the article)

  34. The media gave Trump a lot of shit about ventilators early and allowed Cuomo to whine about them. But in a press conference, Trump made the subtle(unusual for him!) but obvious point that if you are bad enough to be ventilated, your prognosis is very bad. Hearing of several cases in and around NYC where the patient was not properly ventilated, though not clear that would have made any difference in the outcome.Not clear if that is an easy mistake to make or training medical professionals to use it is an issue. We are no longer hearing about how important ventilators are.

  35. what about daily/hourly injection of synthesized antibodies? Is that a thing? Where the antibody blood proteins are created in a lab to match the specific virus the person is infected with. Maybe even create a better antibody than the infected person is creating for themselves. Then inject frequently to maintain the necessary level of antibodies circulating in the blood stream.

  36. I think if you make a Pro/Con column list, the evidence supports that this whole thing is a Fake Crisis

    Israel – 193 deaths

    Sweden – Nothing
    Germany – Nothing
    Denmark – Nothing

    [MORE]

    Iceland- Large Exposure, 99.999999% of people with exposure asymptomatic…Nothing

    California — Nothing

    Ireland – Nothing
    Scotland – Nothing

    All places in the U.S. other than New York – Nothing

    Cruise Ships – Something …But it’s Cruise Ships and there’s always a Disease on those things Somewhere

    New York City – Unreliable Population to Take Seriously, due to Insane anti-Trumpism

    Washington D.C. – Nothing yet those are all the ‘Social People’

    Areas Surrounding Washington D.C. – Nothing

    Washington State – Early Outbreak at Nursing Home…now…nothing

    Nursing Homes – Something…But Nursing Homes exist to give people a place to die, plus the people who work at Nursing Homes tend to be Minorities who enjoy helping the old white people a helping hand into the grave

    Canada- Nothing
    Latin America – Nothing

    Africa – Nothing

    Asia- Under Control

    Italy – Strangely weird, but I think with the report of Legionnaire’s outbreak in Northern Italy, more investigation is needed in case their some type of cover-up on why people have such bad respiratory problems there

    Deep State versus Trump Hydroxycholorquine War

    Shutdown Destroying Small Businesses aka Competition for Big Business

    Stock Market Doing Fine (although it’s just a B wave before a C down)

    Tic Toc Videos of Nurses

    Docs Nurses being told to use respirators and not their usual stuff because of ‘Zee Virus Spreading!’

    Bodies put in vans on the news–Sensationalism or Lies

    Homeless Shelters Not Seeing Deaths

    Big Pharma pushing $$$ drugs and not cheap solutions

    No talk about the actual virus…strangely quiet

    Never comparing the virus to other viruses…Even the Hypoxia claim…I think if we heard how H1n1 or Hong Kong Flu killed…it may be similar

    If you don’t compare it to anything, you can sensationalize everything

    Lack of Perspective

    ————————–

    Grand Total: There’s a Lie Here and It’s Big

  37. Can someone explain to me why total deaths in the US (tracked meticulously by the CDC here) are less than previous years? You can download the entire data set going back to 2012. For the first 14 weeks of the year (the number of weeks that are marked (100% COMPLETE in the dataset), there have been 772,085 deaths in the US. Last year it was 809,704 for that period. The year before it was 836,801. And before that 811,617.

    If this disease is so horrible and warrants nuking millions of jobs, why is it not showing up in total deaths? What am I missing?

    • Replies: @Alice
    You're missing that the experts WERE WRONG and they killed the economy because they panicked because the "best and brightest" are freaking innumerate and ignorant about business.

    See Mackay's 200 yr old Extraordinary popular delusions amd the madness of crowds

    Best case, now they don't want to look the stupid corrupt morons they were and end up tar and feathered, so they're making it upas they go along, trying to CYA, lying as they move the goalposts, without it bothering them in their public paid sinecures. Worst case, they enjoy their power to lock you under house arest while commuting sentences of prisoners, tanking the hospitals so they have to be nationalized, forcing mail in ballots for November, and otherwise ensuring Trump won't win by making his supporters starve or kill themselves.
    , @Bill Jones
    You are missing the fact that at a minimum 200,000 people are killed by medical/hospital mistakes annually
    (that's the number the AMA will admit to, 500k is probably closer to the truth)
    People are avoiding doctors and hospitals like, well, The Plague, so our new Finest are denied the opportunity to reap their accustomed harvest.
    , @Anonymous

    What am I missing?
     
    Isn't it about time Tucker Carlson(and by extension Donald Trump) said, "Sailer made me do it?"

    https://youtu.be/hGOfmLyn_4U?t=96
  38. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "You really don't want to get ventilated"

    Good advice, I'll make sure to stay at least six feet away from Roaring Twenties gangsters and their Tommy guns.

    “You really don’t want to get ventilated”

    I thought Steve had pivoted to a discussion about summer weekends in Chicago!

    …..silly me!

  39. @Jack D
    No one (in their right mind) gets medical advice on what drugs to take from the President on TV. Trump was just being Trump, the eternal optimist and Positive Thinker. Only those with their own disease (TDS) thought that he was giving improper medical advice.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8253467/PIERS-MORGAN-President-Trumps-batsh-t-crazy-coronavirus-cure-theories-going-kill-people.html

    Even an old friend of Trump disagrees.

    Obviously one hopes that no one will follow the advice of the President, but shouldn’t his press conferences be made X-rated in case impressionable youngsters take his words to heart?

    Why do you think phone scammers spend all day trying to scam people with stupid offers? It is because there are lots of people who are elderly, half-demented, plain stupid, or just have a limited command of English and lack of knowledge of scams who make these things profitable.

    But what is the point of the President doing his daily stand-up comic routine if no one is supposed to take him seriously?

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    I’d sooner censor the villains who try to make young White people hate themselves and their people, but you go on being a fag.
    , @Cowboy Shaw
    Piers Morgan has gone completely troppo on this virus thing. Even those who agree with him on principle on this think he's not doing their side any good. He's gone completely mad.

    He's a strange character. It's not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn't have a coherent philosophy. I guess that can be a good thing (a foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds etc), but sometimes it's not studied contrarianism (e.g. Christopher Hitchens), but more a sign of low intelligence (e.g. Bill Maher).

    In the case of Morgan it seems to be that he's a tabloid hack through and through and he shifts and darts like a reef fish, always chasing least resistance and the blood of popular opinion.

    The saving grace is that while at present he wants to lock everyone up for sitting on the grass in the sun, at the end of this he'll probably turn on a dime and become England's leading civil liberties advocate, and then bore and harangue everyone senseless on that issue.

    Anyway, I can read the transcript like any sensible person and see that Trump wasn't suggesting anyone inject or drink bleach and the media are lying, yet again. It's extremely tedious.

    It reminds me of the Dawkins / Eugenics brouhaha a few months back and how half the population, no matter how slowly it was explained to them, could not separate discussion from endorsement. I thought this was an interesting summation of that knot: https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/

    As it is the 'low-decouplers' seem to be in the ascendency and there's not much we can do about it, and civilisation will probably just collapse and I'll have to become a pirate or something. You don't get to choose which age you live in.

    An era in which Donald Trump and Piers Morgan are commanding the heights clearly isn't one of the great ones.
  40. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    About ten years ago I did what most of my acquaintances, who work in the medical field, did. I had do not intubate (DNI) and do not ressucitate (DNR) instructions added to my medical records. My PCP, who is the same age as me, tried to talk me out of this until I got him to admit he’d done the same.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    About ten years ago I did what most of my acquaintances, who work in the medical field, did. I had do not intubate (DNI) and do not ressucitate (DNR) instructions added to my medical records. My PCP, who is the same age as me, tried to talk me out of this until I got him to admit he’d done the same.
     
    Why did he try to talk you out of it?
  41. We’re returning to the good old days when being treated by a doctor was a good way to ensure one would die.

  42. Trump is hurting himself by trying to have fun with journalists. The problem is that the journalist treats him like he were really a Steve Sailer kinda of guy. So you can’t joke with people who hates you. The only stand he could have is gravitas. Being impavid his good but he should never try to be cool because they show him as a chaotic sinister clown.

    My guess is that Trump doesn’t understand that the ideas he claimed to stand for – nationalism – are considered the most vile and detrimental by all the people who have a legit opinion. And quite a part of the underworld, including the trash, will be impressed by this legit opinion.

    So even as he succeeded in shaming Harvard Princeton and Stanford into ethical behaviour, he got 0 credit for it.

    He should stop being cool. And try to be seriously scary. He is very good at that when he wants to. Barr could help.

  43. anon[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    Not only that, President Trump was not suggesting some crazy ideas. His suggestions have some currency in medical research.

    e.g. Intravenous injection of household bleach.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416339

    Ultraviolet light treatment

    https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/treatment/other/ultraviolet-light

    Phototherapy for Jaundice

    https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1894477-overview

    President Trump may not be a M.D. or a Ph.D. , but he is an intelligent person exploring some out of the box thinking to alleviate the suffering of Americans.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lol - in your first link about the bleach ,this:

    "We report the case of a 31-year-old man who injected less than 1 mL of bleach and then experienced transient left-sided chest pain and vomiting. The patient did not have any serious complications. This report is similar to the only other reported case in the medical literature of an IV injection of a small amount of bleach. Based on these two reports, household bleach appears to be safe when used as a disinfectant by IV drug users, but more studies are needed."

    This paper isn't an endorsement of the use of bleach as some sort of in vivo (internal to the body) antimicrobial or antiviral treatment. It is saying that if IV drug users use bleach to kill virus in a previously used syringe (in-vitro) and some small amount of that bleach residue enters their body they wont die but will experience left sided chest pain (heart) and vomiting.

    Its almost a comical abstract.
  44. Not only that but apparently due to the heavy anesthesia/tranquilizers they put you on in order to tolerate a tube down your trachea, patients are sometimes left with neurological issues after the extended, artificially induced “sleep”

  45. @Jonathan Mason
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8253467/PIERS-MORGAN-President-Trumps-batsh-t-crazy-coronavirus-cure-theories-going-kill-people.html

    Even an old friend of Trump disagrees.

    Obviously one hopes that no one will follow the advice of the President, but shouldn't his press conferences be made X-rated in case impressionable youngsters take his words to heart?

    Why do you think phone scammers spend all day trying to scam people with stupid offers? It is because there are lots of people who are elderly, half-demented, plain stupid, or just have a limited command of English and lack of knowledge of scams who make these things profitable.

    But what is the point of the President doing his daily stand-up comic routine if no one is supposed to take him seriously?

    I’d sooner censor the villains who try to make young White people hate themselves and their people, but you go on being a fag.

  46. @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    Trump had no business opining about hydroxychloroquine, one way or another. But he did. The mainstream media then applied playground logic to the situation, “If Trump thinks it’s good then our duty is to prove that it’s awful.”

    Perhaps my favorite article (beating out scores of WaPo stories) was NPR’s “COVID-19 Patients Given Unproven Drug In Texas Nursing Home In ‘Disconcerting’ Move” from April 10th, attempting to get a Texas nursing home doctor sacked for being willing to try hydroxychloroquine on some of his infected patients.

    Reporter Vanessa Romo may not trained in virology, gerontology, or pulmonology. But since she can say “Don’t just do something, stand there!,” she’s a much better medico than the Orange Man Bad acolyte she profiled.

  47. @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    Mason is always there to let us know the stupidest take from MSNBC/CNN on any given day.

    Valuable service

    • Agree: William Badwhite, David
  48. You Really Don’t Want to Get Ventilated

    You really don’t want to be stuck in a hospital cut off from your family.

  49. @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    Here is a local version of what you were calling for a few days ago, essentially a PSA telling people not to ignore signs of a heart attack or stroke. The hospital system putting this out furloughed over 600 employees last week.

    https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/dell-rapids/2020/04/23/even-covid-19-era-health-emergencies-need-quick-action/3017815001/

  50. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    I agree, but it’s not as easy as you say, especially if it’s not you making the call when it comes down to it. Both my parents had DNRs, both were very clear eyed when they had them drawn up. Unfortunately, both were required. It’s easy to turn down ventilation, much harder to turn down a feeding tube. Multiply the difficulty by the number of siblings involved. There will be arguments about starving your loved one to death. Arguments that can cause terminal damage to relationships. Have a very, very clear eyed discussion with all of those who might be involved in such a decision on your behalf. Keep in mind that a feeding tube can last for a significant period and be an ongoing source of acrimony.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
  51. Random commenter report:

    I looked at these pulse ox things back in late February, but–as been my standard practice in life–procrastinated. So AnotherMom was out this morning buying the last one at a Walmart a good 40 minutes away.

    I’ve now been pulse-oxed. Verdict–i’m dead or soon will be. A crappy 94, compared to AnotherMom’s smooth stylish 99. (My lungs have felt a bit “congested” for a few days so no big surprise.) My bet is i’ve got some random cold.

    But if this is the real deal and i live, what is the protocol? Is there some sort of badge or pin i get to wear so that i can brag about being a “survivor”?

    I would assume all the “just the flu, bro” guys here–behaving logically–have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune–since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.

    So just let me in on how to claim bragging rights … just on the oft chance i’ve got it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I would assume all the “just the flu, bro” guys here–behaving logically–have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune–since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.
     
    No, we're too busy arguing with you "it's just a police-state, bro" and "it's just a depression, bro" guys.
    , @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    94 is borderline for pulse ox.

    I'd do a reading a few times a day for a while to see if it was just an anomaly.

    If it starts dropping into 85-93 range consistently over a day or two, I'd get a test, and pronto.
    , @JMcG
    94 is not a really good number, especially if it’s consistently that low.
  52. The major institutions of a society are most effectively administered by +2SD types like Trump who can more effectively relate to regular folks and partake of their wisdom than +3SD experts like Steve, Spotted_Toad, Fauci and the like who work better as advisors, preferably on a team of rivals like FDR maintained to better hone their arguments.

    Aristotle and Alexander, Merlin and Arthur, Gandalf and Aragorn (yes, I know, that’s what literature is for).

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos and there are a lot more of them than us, which is why we’ve developed 3,000 odd years of Civilization to give the +1s more productive things to do than nonsensically ankle-bite. Abandoning said Civilization is not serving us well presently.

    • Agree: Manfred Arcane
    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos
     
    Lol or the -1SDs like Corvirus
    , @Manfred Arcane
    Well put. For the same reasons, Kirk is Captain and Spock is not, even though Spock is obviously "smarter" on a pure IQ basis.
    , @anonymous
    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOMLoo980zc
    , @res
    Well said. In addition to the effect you observe, I think it is worth noting that leadership is a skill somewhat independent of IQ. Given that there are about 15x the number of people over 2 SD (roughly 2.2% of the population) as people over 3 SD (roughly 0.15% of the population) there is a much larger chance of finding people with high level leadership talent in the +2SD group. To add to that, roughly 16% of people are +1SD or 7x the number who are +2SD.
  53. A 2016 Hopkins study reported that 250,000 die annually from medical negligence. Studies show that even for the simple procedure of hand-washing, performance by medical personnel is cavalier, inept, even defiant. Which leads to my question: Is there a multivariate breakdown that demonstrates far superior ventilator outcomes at Mass General, The Mayo Clinic, etc. compared with — I will be kind here — less-proficient hospitals?

  54. H says:

    We’ve heard that the general nursing staff of NYC is particularly poor, and I recently came across an item which said their pre-Corona-chan hospital outcomes were worse than you’d expect. Do you suppose this extends to respiratory therapists, the nursing specialists who keep people alive on ventilators? Or does the level of support they got from the general nursing staff make it impossible to do their theoretical best? Or were they overworked much more than claimed during the period of the study?

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    The one video I saw of a nurse saying she was overwhelmed and that it was a warzone from Covid

    Was...

    A venus william lookalike

  55. @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires.

    Quack remedies? Like, perhaps, ventillators? Unfortunately, there are also quacks in the medical profession. And a fair number of doctors and nurses are just lazy.

    People forget, especially now that we are marinated in propaganda telling us to thank our “health care heroes” – actually telling us to obey them without question – that half of all doctors and nurses are below average.

  56. @AnotherDad
    Random commenter report:

    I looked at these pulse ox things back in late February, but--as been my standard practice in life--procrastinated. So AnotherMom was out this morning buying the last one at a Walmart a good 40 minutes away.

    I've now been pulse-oxed. Verdict--i'm dead or soon will be. A crappy 94, compared to AnotherMom's smooth stylish 99. (My lungs have felt a bit "congested" for a few days so no big surprise.) My bet is i've got some random cold.

    But if this is the real deal and i live, what is the protocol? Is there some sort of badge or pin i get to wear so that i can brag about being a "survivor"?

    I would assume all the "just the flu, bro" guys here--behaving logically--have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune--since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.

    So just let me in on how to claim bragging rights ... just on the oft chance i've got it.

    I would assume all the “just the flu, bro” guys here–behaving logically–have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune–since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.

    No, we’re too busy arguing with you “it’s just a police-state, bro” and “it’s just a depression, bro” guys.

    • LOL: Mehen
  57. So 1 in 8 ventilated patients “survive”, which usually means only “survive to discharge”. It will be interesting to study the subsequent course of these survivors. Since most are elderly with chronic diseases and will be greatly weakened after such an ordeal, it is likely the majority are discharged to the nursing home and die within a few months. Commonly elderly people who have been through the hell of one intubation will subsequently opt for DNR status.

  58. We have to be locked down in our homes to flatten the curve so that we won’t run out of the vital death-giving treatment that COVID-19 patients will need in order to live before they are put on a vent to die.

    Before all this, I had heard about ventillators, but like most people who don’t want to think about such things, never thought about them. You’d occasionally here about people being put on a vent, usually followed by hearing that they had died. Sometimes they lived. What I hadn’t known is that they are sedated during the whole time, which seems obvious once you know that it entails shoving a tube down their throats; they’d have to be sedated or they’d ben in a perpetual state of gagging.

    It is a common observance among people who have had a general anesthetic – many will tell you this – that they aren’t quite the same afterwords. They’re not quite as sharp, maybe have memory lapses. Maybe it’s just aging people trying to explain away their dementia, but I’ve heard it enough from observant people that I think there is something to it. Imagine being placed on continuous sedation for days, weeks even. That can’t be good for your brain.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I read a study in an Aviation journal on the effects of alcohol on performance. It was years ago, so no source I’m afraid. They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months. It was done using Naval aviators, so I have no idea where they found a non- drinking control group.
  59. @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    If you continue using correct punctuation, good grammar, and stating what you want stated in succinct sentences, people will not respect nor pay much attention to you. At least that’s been my experience.

  60. anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    Hydroxychloroquine works by making it more difficult for the virus to enter the cell by altering the PH of the cell wall. Studies of Hydroxychloroquine used alone without in combination with Zinc, Antibiotics(AZ), Vitamin D3 and C have proved disappointing. But that is exactly what the Chinese said would happen. Were western medical establishments even listening???? Would they have unless Trump acted?

    See:
    ttps://indigonaturals.net/blogs/news/how-does-hydroxychloroquine-work-for-coronavirus-why-it-may-be-a-game-changer

    Why exactly is Trump wrong for attempting to light a fire under the US big Pharma/Healthcare establishment? Especially when Big Pharma is saying that there will be no vaccine available for 18 months out of one corner of their mouths. Meanwhile Big Pharms is whispering that some viruses like SARS and Dengue fever do not lend themselves to remedy by vaccine without great risk(of binding antibody side effects) which has been known for decades now.

    Not to mention that Big Pharma is admitting that their repurposed expensive and limited in supply antivirals like redemsivir are either proving disappointing or no more effective than Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin.

    Hydroxychloroquine for now seem to be one of best front line defense against the virus. It helps to limit the patient’s viral load long enough so that one’s Innate Immune system is not overwhelmed or overreacts while buying time for the adaptive immune system to hopefully kick and begin producing antibodies which make take 7-10 days.

    Innate vs Adaptive Systems

    Likewise Ivermetcin seems promising by actually limiting virus reproduction inside the cell.

    COVID-19 and Ivermectin, We Finally Have Some Clinical Trial Data!
    230 views •Apr 24, 2020

    Again I doubt Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin are seen as cures, but if used early enough will buy time for more patients’ own adaptive immune systems to respond with antibodies.

    Like Steve is saying LETS KEEP THEM OFF THE VENTILATORS!!!!

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Thanks: danand
    • Replies: @Steve Richter

    Studies of Hydroxychloroquine used alone without in combination with Zinc, Antibiotics(AZ), Vitamin D3 and C have proved disappointing.
     
    are there numbers on patients being treated with this combination of drugs?

    The lack of information available to the public on treatment outcomes is very disappointing. Requiring hospitals to publish how they are treating people is a common sense policy that Trump could get a lot of mileage out of in terms of holding hospitals accountable. Show that doctors in NY state were less willing to try alternatives than in republican states.
  61. @Desiderius
    The major institutions of a society are most effectively administered by +2SD types like Trump who can more effectively relate to regular folks and partake of their wisdom than +3SD experts like Steve, Spotted_Toad, Fauci and the like who work better as advisors, preferably on a team of rivals like FDR maintained to better hone their arguments.

    Aristotle and Alexander, Merlin and Arthur, Gandalf and Aragorn (yes, I know, that's what literature is for).

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos and there are a lot more of them than us, which is why we've developed 3,000 odd years of Civilization to give the +1s more productive things to do than nonsensically ankle-bite. Abandoning said Civilization is not serving us well presently.

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos

    Lol or the -1SDs like Corvirus

  62. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "You really don't want to get ventilated"

    Good advice, I'll make sure to stay at least six feet away from Roaring Twenties gangsters and their Tommy guns.

    He’s still an artist with a Thompson.

  63. @Thoughts
    New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Spitting, Screaming, Bodies Bumping up Against Each other, Old Dudes, All Men

    Why are there no stats?

    Of all the places to have a super spreader event, that would be it.

    Why isn't there one?

    If Corona was a real thing, especially in New York, at least 10% of those traders would be dead given age, maleness, drinking, and overall stress levels.

    New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Was closed on March 23, 2020, all trading moved to electronic means.

    Search terms: nyse floor closed
    First result:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/nyse-to-temporarily-close-trading-floor-move-to-electronic-trading-because-of-coronavirus.html

    Search engines are cool.

  64. @AnotherDad
    Random commenter report:

    I looked at these pulse ox things back in late February, but--as been my standard practice in life--procrastinated. So AnotherMom was out this morning buying the last one at a Walmart a good 40 minutes away.

    I've now been pulse-oxed. Verdict--i'm dead or soon will be. A crappy 94, compared to AnotherMom's smooth stylish 99. (My lungs have felt a bit "congested" for a few days so no big surprise.) My bet is i've got some random cold.

    But if this is the real deal and i live, what is the protocol? Is there some sort of badge or pin i get to wear so that i can brag about being a "survivor"?

    I would assume all the "just the flu, bro" guys here--behaving logically--have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune--since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.

    So just let me in on how to claim bragging rights ... just on the oft chance i've got it.

    94 is borderline for pulse ox.

    I’d do a reading a few times a day for a while to see if it was just an anomaly.

    If it starts dropping into 85-93 range consistently over a day or two, I’d get a test, and pronto.

  65. @Steve Richter
    would help a lot to have each person who tests positive to be contacted and interviewed. Ask how frequently they travel, if they work in an office, which supermarket they go to, how many children, use public transportation, ... Get their age, BMI, ethnicity, have a blood test done like when a person has an annual physical.

    like we do with the flu?

    Wait, we don’t do that with the flu? Why not?

  66. @varsicule
    Can someone explain to me why total deaths in the US (tracked meticulously by the CDC here) are less than previous years? You can download the entire data set going back to 2012. For the first 14 weeks of the year (the number of weeks that are marked (100% COMPLETE in the dataset), there have been 772,085 deaths in the US. Last year it was 809,704 for that period. The year before it was 836,801. And before that 811,617.

    If this disease is so horrible and warrants nuking millions of jobs, why is it not showing up in total deaths? What am I missing?

    You’re missing that the experts WERE WRONG and they killed the economy because they panicked because the “best and brightest” are freaking innumerate and ignorant about business.

    See Mackay’s 200 yr old Extraordinary popular delusions amd the madness of crowds

    Best case, now they don’t want to look the stupid corrupt morons they were and end up tar and feathered, so they’re making it upas they go along, trying to CYA, lying as they move the goalposts, without it bothering them in their public paid sinecures. Worst case, they enjoy their power to lock you under house arest while commuting sentences of prisoners, tanking the hospitals so they have to be nationalized, forcing mail in ballots for November, and otherwise ensuring Trump won’t win by making his supporters starve or kill themselves.

  67. @anon
    Not having to deal with peer review is the newest white privilege:

    “In the physics community we have a process for evaluating new ideas called ‘peer review.’ Being rich isn’t a ‘get out of peer review free’ card,” said University of New Hampshire physicist Chanda Prescod-Weinstein in a tweeted statement. “I refuse to give time to the work [of] someone who doesn’t respect the community standards that I am required to obey. I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist does this year.”
     
    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/04/the-trouble-with-stephen-wolframs-new-fundamental-theory-of-physics/

    I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist does this year.

    i.e.

    I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist –LIKE ME, CHANDA PRESCOD WEINSTEIN, Ph.D. – does this year.

  68. @Steve Richter
    are there day to day numbers on the number of infections and number of deaths from the virus? Would like to see how the death and recovery rate are changing as doctors become more knowledgeable on treatment.

    Sir, do you really not know that data has been available at your state or county level, probably on their website, for the last month? You can build the data tables yourself. Or you can look and see what some other good folks have done.

    But if you had been paying attention, you’d know that our CDC allowd states to code deaths differently, now allowing “suspected death with” instead if “test confirmed death by”. So you can no longer compare apples to apples and must look at all-cause mortality. the most telling indicator is thr number currently hospitalized, and number of ICU beds filled. if you go back and look at the U W imhe data, you’ll see the outrageous projections, but you might also see your state’s total available beds.

    A helpful primer for you would be the red-pilling Alex Berenson’s twitter feed.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1246795837080035333&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerlineblog.com%2Farchives%2F2020%2F04%2Fattention-citizens.php

    • Replies: @Steve Richter

    You can build the data tables yourself.
     
    yeah, was looking at that today. Some numbers I saw has the death rate kind of holding steady. Which is very odd since doctors have learned a lot in the last 2 months.
  69. The issue with ventilators probably isn’t so much the ventilator itself but the medically induced coma they put you in.

    If you knock a 95 year old out he probably isn’t waking up again. A lot of time they won’t do surgery on people that old for the same reason, the surgery can be minor, but they will not survive anesthesia.

    I have to wonder if a bunch of corona deaths don’t boil down to killing old people with opiates because people were worried about aersolizing Death, Destroyer of Worlds, so they got put on ventilators instead of nebulizers and cpap machines.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    There is more to it...

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/condition-improves-of-22-year-old-in-critical-condition-with-coronavirus/

    22-year-old who was in critical condition with coronavirus regains consciousness

    The condition of a 22-year-old Israeli, with no preexisting medical issues, who was designated critical after being infected by the coronavirus, has improved and he regained consciousness nearly three weeks after he was struck with the virus.
    .....................
    Doctors and Tel Aviv’s Ichilov Hospital where Suissa is being treated said he is communicating with staff, though he remains on cardiac and respiratory support.
    .................................
    A resident of the southern port city of Ashdod, Suissa has been hospitalized since the last week of March. He had recently been in the US with two friends, touring in Miami and then Las Vegas.
    ................................
    Both of Suissa’s traveling companions were also diagnosed with COVID-19, but reportedly only suffered mild symptoms.
  70. @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Oh, one of em! That's only gonna last me through next week. Thanks .. I guess.

    No seriously, that was a facepalm moment there, but I'll explain in a reply to Res.

    Back a while ago a lady in another building at work had emailed me something and then noted her exclamation point key was broken. I cut and pasted about 200 into a reply, saying that she was welcome to more any time (should have added, "you're gonna have to pay me back ... somehow..", as we were getting along kinda well.
  71. @Desiderius
    The major institutions of a society are most effectively administered by +2SD types like Trump who can more effectively relate to regular folks and partake of their wisdom than +3SD experts like Steve, Spotted_Toad, Fauci and the like who work better as advisors, preferably on a team of rivals like FDR maintained to better hone their arguments.

    Aristotle and Alexander, Merlin and Arthur, Gandalf and Aragorn (yes, I know, that's what literature is for).

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos and there are a lot more of them than us, which is why we've developed 3,000 odd years of Civilization to give the +1s more productive things to do than nonsensically ankle-bite. Abandoning said Civilization is not serving us well presently.

    Well put. For the same reasons, Kirk is Captain and Spock is not, even though Spock is obviously “smarter” on a pure IQ basis.

    • Replies: @Cowboy Shaw
    Clearly an error was made in TNG. The betazoid Deanna Troi should have been captain not Picard, as we can now see how amazing and wondrous and brilliant the sainted Jacinda is in NZ on account of her empath abilities. So I've been reading in the international media.

    So I think the leadership formula, updated for this age, should be 3SD < 2SD < (1SD + empath).

  72. With all the posts that Steve has done on the cons of being ventilated for COVID-19, why do I get the suspicion that being ventilated isn’t the way to go as a possible treatment?

    On a more serious note, I think we posters at iSteve owe Steve a debt of gratitude for all the work he has done on trying to help keep us safe, as well as informed on the most current up to date information that could possibly help regarding the Novel Virus. For better or for worse, those of us who were born after the Great Depression/WW2 conflicts, have now gained a better understanding of what it must’ve been like to live through those difficult, challenging times. Because of COVID-19, most of the US now has a better understanding of what it was like to endure hardship on both economic and psychological levels, heretofore unknown (much less unseen) for nearly an entire century. Whenever we read or see documentaries of the Depression’s hardships, and despair, we now can point to the virus and say “Yeah, we get it now what our parents/grandparents/great-grandparents went through. It was (and is) a total hell to have to endure something that seemingly came out of nowhere unexpected, and one that has the entire world in its clutches.”

    Thanks, Steve, and keep up the good work.

    • Agree: Jus' Sayin'...
  73. anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius
    The major institutions of a society are most effectively administered by +2SD types like Trump who can more effectively relate to regular folks and partake of their wisdom than +3SD experts like Steve, Spotted_Toad, Fauci and the like who work better as advisors, preferably on a team of rivals like FDR maintained to better hone their arguments.

    Aristotle and Alexander, Merlin and Arthur, Gandalf and Aragorn (yes, I know, that's what literature is for).

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos and there are a lot more of them than us, which is why we've developed 3,000 odd years of Civilization to give the +1s more productive things to do than nonsensically ankle-bite. Abandoning said Civilization is not serving us well presently.

    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also

    • Replies: @kihowi

    The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
     
    Man that was a great book. It made the extremely important point that if the two sides of the political spectrum agree on the same narrative for different reasons, it will become and absolutely established fact for all time. An argument in favor of proportional representation: there's always a crazy little party that goes "I don't believe it".
    , @Mehen
    Re: Michael Fumento and the AIDS scare - the parallels with our current situation are striking. And not just because Fauci was in favor of that scam back then. Though that is significant too.
    , @Desiderius
    The dark matter exerting its inexorable force on Pax Americana is the felt need to get birth rates down to the (lower, chief feather in their caps) death rates produced by their benign and glorious rule. This is why anything on the side of lower TFR is nigh untouchable (the Poz, abortion) and anything on the family formation side mysteriously akin to pulling teeth.

    My sense from the disparate hospitalization experiences from my 2007 transplant and my 2017 one (and the various follow-up procedures ensuing) is that letting that death rate find its way back up to a more reasonable level has been growing on TPTB for awhile.

    There is a reason (in a manner of speaking) why cells have telomeres and organisms go therough the trouble of reproducing as often as they do.

    , @O'Really
    That Fumento article is not aging well. Sweden has 3.5x the number of deaths as Denmark and Norway combined, despite lower total population (SWE: 10.2M; DEN+NOR: 11.2M).
  74. @Thoughts
    I checked there are only 500 floor traders. But I think that's enough for something to have occurred

    480 out of 2,000 employees at Cargill meatpacking plant in Calgary tested positive for COVID-19. One death was recorded. Allegedly, the infection spread because they are foreigners living in crowded boarding houses, and carpooling to work from one specific neighborhood of the city.

  75. @anonymous
    Hydroxychloroquine works by making it more difficult for the virus to enter the cell by altering the PH of the cell wall. Studies of Hydroxychloroquine used alone without in combination with Zinc, Antibiotics(AZ), Vitamin D3 and C have proved disappointing. But that is exactly what the Chinese said would happen. Were western medical establishments even listening???? Would they have unless Trump acted?

    See:
    ttps://indigonaturals.net/blogs/news/how-does-hydroxychloroquine-work-for-coronavirus-why-it-may-be-a-game-changer

    Why exactly is Trump wrong for attempting to light a fire under the US big Pharma/Healthcare establishment? Especially when Big Pharma is saying that there will be no vaccine available for 18 months out of one corner of their mouths. Meanwhile Big Pharms is whispering that some viruses like SARS and Dengue fever do not lend themselves to remedy by vaccine without great risk(of binding antibody side effects) which has been known for decades now.

    Not to mention that Big Pharma is admitting that their repurposed expensive and limited in supply antivirals like redemsivir are either proving disappointing or no more effective than Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin.

    Hydroxychloroquine for now seem to be one of best front line defense against the virus. It helps to limit the patient's viral load long enough so that one's Innate Immune system is not overwhelmed or overreacts while buying time for the adaptive immune system to hopefully kick and begin producing antibodies which make take 7-10 days.

    Innate vs Adaptive Systems
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8IBfZrI2fg

    Likewise Ivermetcin seems promising by actually limiting virus reproduction inside the cell.

    COVID-19 and Ivermectin, We Finally Have Some Clinical Trial Data!
    230 views •Apr 24, 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z1Oc4_99sk

    Again I doubt Hydroxychloroqine or Ivermectin are seen as cures, but if used early enough will buy time for more patients' own adaptive immune systems to respond with antibodies.

    Like Steve is saying LETS KEEP THEM OFF THE VENTILATORS!!!!

    Studies of Hydroxychloroquine used alone without in combination with Zinc, Antibiotics(AZ), Vitamin D3 and C have proved disappointing.

    are there numbers on patients being treated with this combination of drugs?

    The lack of information available to the public on treatment outcomes is very disappointing. Requiring hospitals to publish how they are treating people is a common sense policy that Trump could get a lot of mileage out of in terms of holding hospitals accountable. Show that doctors in NY state were less willing to try alternatives than in republican states.

  76. anon[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    On my local TV stations, I am seeing a sudden surge in advertising by many teleevangelists and assorted faith people urging people to take care of their business with God because of Covid. Always with a convenient 800 number to call or a website. I am sure they all accept Mastercard or Visa. Some, not even attempting to hide how the government money from stimulus etc., rightfully belongs to God (fully or partly) because …. Covid.

  77. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Does the hospital get it's $13,000 per ventilator usage no matter how short the stay, survive, or not?

    Does the hospital get it’s $13,000 per ventilator usage no matter how short the stay, survive, or not?

    I believe the 13k is for simply admitting a Covid patient. They get 39k for using a ventilator.

  78. @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    Achmed, just copy-and-paste it from anywhere else in the thread when writing your comment.

  79. @anon
    Not having to deal with peer review is the newest white privilege:

    “In the physics community we have a process for evaluating new ideas called ‘peer review.’ Being rich isn’t a ‘get out of peer review free’ card,” said University of New Hampshire physicist Chanda Prescod-Weinstein in a tweeted statement. “I refuse to give time to the work [of] someone who doesn’t respect the community standards that I am required to obey. I am sorry to see journalists cover this, which will surely get more press than anything any barrier-breaking black scientist does this year.”
     
    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/04/the-trouble-with-stephen-wolframs-new-fundamental-theory-of-physics/

    Such an odd thing for the guy to say…I’m not qualified to evaluate Wolfram’s theories, but he’s putting it out there for everyone to read, reject, build upon, etc.–isn’t that pretty much the essence of peer review? Sure, he’s leveraging his fame, but at the end of the day his ideas will have to stand on their own. I mean it’s standard of practice to submit unreviewed stuff to the arXiv all the time. Wolfram’s doing peer review, it’s just not the model of submitting to a journal and having two or three peers review. But the reason for that model is people only have so much bandwidth to read papers and most people aren’t willing to read stuff that hasn’t been pre-vetted. If you are famous enough that people are willing to read your stuff regardless, then why not?

  80. @The Alarmist
    As I commented in another thread, bad medical care in hospitals is one of the leading killers in America.

    Using a weighted average of the 4 studies, a lower limit of 210,000 deaths per year was associated with preventable harm in hospitals. Given limitations in the search capability of the Global Trigger Tool and the incompleteness of medical records on which the Tool depends, the true number of premature deaths associated with preventable harm to patients was estimated at more than 400,000 per year. Serious harm seems to be 10- to 20-fold more common than lethal harm.
     
    source: https://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx

    Wait a minute – but I thought heroic Nurses of Color were busy saving lives in between all the time they spend alternatively posing stoically with crossed arms or twerking in tiktok videos?

  81. Of course it’s impossible to say if the ventilator group died at higher rates because they were put on ventilators which made them worse, or they were sicker to begin with so they died at higher rates and got put on ventilators at higher rates, or some combination of the two.

    It’s not unreasonable to suppose that ventilators could actually cause harm. Your lungs are lined with cilia that are constantly brushing particles up the lungs up and out the trachea where you (typically) swallow them, or do a final ejection by clearing your throat or coughing a bit. Ventilation requires an tube in the trachea which has a balloon that seals off the trachea, the seal interferes with this process. Suctioning frequently and vigorously can help but it’s not quite the same.

  82. @anonymous
    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOMLoo980zc

    The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS

    Man that was a great book. It made the extremely important point that if the two sides of the political spectrum agree on the same narrative for different reasons, it will become and absolutely established fact for all time. An argument in favor of proportional representation: there’s always a crazy little party that goes “I don’t believe it”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes, there was common cause between parents who didn't want teen kids screwing around and gay activists who wanted everybody to worry about their problem. Normally the two groups have nothing in common.

    What other examples are there of this kind of thing?

    The 'Baptists and Bootleggers' thing comes to mind.
  83. @Alice
    People were been put on ventilators because nurses and doctors thought it protected nurses and doctors, not because it helped patients.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1253417451754098689

    read the thread.

    Thanks for the link.

    “People were been put on ventilators because nurses and doctors thought it protected nurses and doctors, not because it helped patients.” – This is a serious allegation that if true would/should lead to a criminal investigation. I found that intubation shield (w/o intubation) are used for protection:

    Jefferson County Health Center Using Intubation Shields To Protect Staff From Virus
    https://www.kyoutv.com/home/2020/04/08/jefferson-county-health-center-using-intubation-shields-to-protect-staff-from-virus/

    I watched interview with Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell who now is kind of a whistleblower on the ventilators issue and protocols that have been used. However I haven’t heard him saying that “ventilators are killing people” as it is being repeated over and over on the twitter thread you linked.

    Then I checked on the protocols that they have been following which were developed for ARDS.

    Focus on ventilation and ARD: recent insights (2019)
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-019-05804-w

    Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell said that new guidelines are being developed and there is some work from Italy: Lots of oxygen at low pressure, which for me is contradiction. As it is the pressure that determines how much oxygen there is. He no longer is in ICU because he could not take it or Arther did not agree with the protocols thy used.

  84. @anonymous
    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOMLoo980zc

    Re: Michael Fumento and the AIDS scare – the parallels with our current situation are striking. And not just because Fauci was in favor of that scam back then. Though that is significant too.

  85. @AnotherDad
    Random commenter report:

    I looked at these pulse ox things back in late February, but--as been my standard practice in life--procrastinated. So AnotherMom was out this morning buying the last one at a Walmart a good 40 minutes away.

    I've now been pulse-oxed. Verdict--i'm dead or soon will be. A crappy 94, compared to AnotherMom's smooth stylish 99. (My lungs have felt a bit "congested" for a few days so no big surprise.) My bet is i've got some random cold.

    But if this is the real deal and i live, what is the protocol? Is there some sort of badge or pin i get to wear so that i can brag about being a "survivor"?

    I would assume all the "just the flu, bro" guys here--behaving logically--have already gone out and gotten themselves infected so they can troll Tinder as Covid-19 immune--since they are deprived of the high quality gals they would normally be picking up clubbing.

    So just let me in on how to claim bragging rights ... just on the oft chance i've got it.

    94 is not a really good number, especially if it’s consistently that low.

  86. @Mr. Anon
    We have to be locked down in our homes to flatten the curve so that we won't run out of the vital death-giving treatment that COVID-19 patients will need in order to live before they are put on a vent to die.

    Before all this, I had heard about ventillators, but like most people who don't want to think about such things, never thought about them. You'd occasionally here about people being put on a vent, usually followed by hearing that they had died. Sometimes they lived. What I hadn't known is that they are sedated during the whole time, which seems obvious once you know that it entails shoving a tube down their throats; they'd have to be sedated or they'd ben in a perpetual state of gagging.

    It is a common observance among people who have had a general anesthetic - many will tell you this - that they aren't quite the same afterwords. They're not quite as sharp, maybe have memory lapses. Maybe it's just aging people trying to explain away their dementia, but I've heard it enough from observant people that I think there is something to it. Imagine being placed on continuous sedation for days, weeks even. That can't be good for your brain.

    I read a study in an Aviation journal on the effects of alcohol on performance. It was years ago, so no source I’m afraid. They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months. It was done using Naval aviators, so I have no idea where they found a non- drinking control group.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months.
     
    What? A single night of drinking has effects for SIX MONTHS? What is the theory behind that?
  87. @Jonathan Mason
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8253467/PIERS-MORGAN-President-Trumps-batsh-t-crazy-coronavirus-cure-theories-going-kill-people.html

    Even an old friend of Trump disagrees.

    Obviously one hopes that no one will follow the advice of the President, but shouldn't his press conferences be made X-rated in case impressionable youngsters take his words to heart?

    Why do you think phone scammers spend all day trying to scam people with stupid offers? It is because there are lots of people who are elderly, half-demented, plain stupid, or just have a limited command of English and lack of knowledge of scams who make these things profitable.

    But what is the point of the President doing his daily stand-up comic routine if no one is supposed to take him seriously?

    Piers Morgan has gone completely troppo on this virus thing. Even those who agree with him on principle on this think he’s not doing their side any good. He’s gone completely mad.

    He’s a strange character. It’s not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn’t have a coherent philosophy. I guess that can be a good thing (a foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds etc), but sometimes it’s not studied contrarianism (e.g. Christopher Hitchens), but more a sign of low intelligence (e.g. Bill Maher).

    In the case of Morgan it seems to be that he’s a tabloid hack through and through and he shifts and darts like a reef fish, always chasing least resistance and the blood of popular opinion.

    The saving grace is that while at present he wants to lock everyone up for sitting on the grass in the sun, at the end of this he’ll probably turn on a dime and become England’s leading civil liberties advocate, and then bore and harangue everyone senseless on that issue.

    Anyway, I can read the transcript like any sensible person and see that Trump wasn’t suggesting anyone inject or drink bleach and the media are lying, yet again. It’s extremely tedious.

    It reminds me of the Dawkins / Eugenics brouhaha a few months back and how half the population, no matter how slowly it was explained to them, could not separate discussion from endorsement. I thought this was an interesting summation of that knot: https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/

    As it is the ‘low-decouplers’ seem to be in the ascendency and there’s not much we can do about it, and civilisation will probably just collapse and I’ll have to become a pirate or something. You don’t get to choose which age you live in.

    An era in which Donald Trump and Piers Morgan are commanding the heights clearly isn’t one of the great ones.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    He’s a strange character. It’s not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn’t have a coherent philosophy.
     
    Why does America allow so many foreigners to have leading media, show hosting, and pundit roles?
    , @Jonathan Mason
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8256269/Donald-Trump-unfollows-Piers-Morgan-GMB-host-blasted-bats-crazy-approach-coronavirus.html

    OMG! Donald Trump has now unfollowed Piers Morgan on Twitter. This is the modern day equivalent of Papal excommunication.

    Morgan must now make a declaration of repentance, profess the Trumpian Creed, and make an Act of Faith or renewal of obedience, before he can receive any further online sacraments.

    In case he has forgotten the lyrics:

    Immortal, ineffable, Trump only wise,
    Via satellites most wondrous revealed to our eyes,
    Most blessèd, most glorious, the Master of Phrase,
    Almighty, victorious, thy great Name I praise.
  88. This shouldn’t be necessary, but of course Trump did not say that thing which every respectable educated twit plus Drudge is crying about him supposedly saying:

    The full text of the statement, including questions is available at: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-briefing-31/
    A ctrl+f search for “inject” brings up 6 results. Those 6 include any use of “injection” “injects” any word that has that particular sequence of letters.
    Of those 6, the first 3 are not uttered by the president and and are in reference to inserting data as it pertains to some kind of statistic.
    The 4th is by the president, and is not advising anyone to inject household cleaners into their body in any fashion. He is saying he is hopeful they will find some kind of novel way to kill virus particles in the body, perhaps via injection or some method of directing it a sprcific area of the body with similar results to virus particles being subject to disinfectant or UV rays as if they were on the surface of an inanimate object that is safe to introduce either one of those to. He is aware, like any other adult human being, that introducing these into a human body is not sound.
    The 5th result is a journalist asking if he is suggesting people should inject household cleaning chemicals.
    Responding to this is the final use of the word, and it is by the President:
    “THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.”
    The entire press conference is [remarkably]ing weird, yes, why are you surprised by that? But however odd his many statements may be, The President of the United States has not told anyone to inject these things into anyone.

  89. @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    Easiest way is to cut and paste it from:
    Replies:

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Facepalm, but I just assumed it was like the bigger dot next to... well, you don't have one, haha! .. by us NORMAL PEON commenters' names ;-} That is a graphic of some sort, as I can't highlight it regularly. Anyway, Res, I really checked for an extended ASCII char. set code, etc. for about 5 minutes, but never checked that I could copy the dot. Doh!

    Thanks to both of you.
  90. @utu
    "If a therapy is ineffective or counterproductive then it is ALWAYS too soon to be put on it." - Ventilating is not a therapy. W/o it you suffocate/ drown in fluids and die. It is to keep you alive for a bit longer so healing and medications and prayers have more time to work. Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.

    Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.

    We don’t know that. You need a RCT to determine the effect. How many of those people would have recovered without a ventilator?

    This is even more true when there are less invasive treatment alternatives.

    • Replies: @utu
    What about the 88% that died? Do you need RCT or do you believe that ventilators killed them which seems to be the prevailing tone in this thread. Have you objected to the title of this thread? I don't think so.

    My understanding is that protocols developed for treatment of ARDS were used. There were good reasons for it because of the disease manifestation. In ARDS when treated (which include life sustaining ventilation ) mortality is 25-40% which is already high. More die w/o ventilators. How many people with ARDS would die if not ventilated? I presume significantly more than 40%. Ventilating is a life sustaining procedure; it is not really a treatment. While on ventilators ARDS patients die more from sepsis and other organ failures than from pulmonary issues. So this is the background that doctors were bringing into the situation of CoV patients who exhibited ARDS. Patients were dying from the lack of oxygen. Ventilation was the only thing they knew how to prolong their lives..

    Were some patience ventilated too soon? Is it true as some say that intubations was done to protect nurses and doctors from being infected that was not really necessary as patients were not dying? I do not want even go there. But somebody will.

    The protocols and procedures are being adjusted. Mortality is over two time s higher than for ARDS. It is possible that some patients will benefit form low pressure oxygenation. It is possible that some patients will only benefit from ECMO but I think that ventilation still will be used to keep soem alive longer until some antiviral or antibiotic or anti-something treatment kicks in.
  91. We must never forget: German diet rebels and forces the removal of parliamentarian who attempted to remember victims of Islam.

  92. @Lars Porsena
    The issue with ventilators probably isn't so much the ventilator itself but the medically induced coma they put you in.

    If you knock a 95 year old out he probably isn't waking up again. A lot of time they won't do surgery on people that old for the same reason, the surgery can be minor, but they will not survive anesthesia.

    I have to wonder if a bunch of corona deaths don't boil down to killing old people with opiates because people were worried about aersolizing Death, Destroyer of Worlds, so they got put on ventilators instead of nebulizers and cpap machines.

    There is more to it…

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/condition-improves-of-22-year-old-in-critical-condition-with-coronavirus/

    22-year-old who was in critical condition with coronavirus regains consciousness

    The condition of a 22-year-old Israeli, with no preexisting medical issues, who was designated critical after being infected by the coronavirus, has improved and he regained consciousness nearly three weeks after he was struck with the virus.
    …………………
    Doctors and Tel Aviv’s Ichilov Hospital where Suissa is being treated said he is communicating with staff, though he remains on cardiac and respiratory support.
    ……………………………
    A resident of the southern port city of Ashdod, Suissa has been hospitalized since the last week of March. He had recently been in the US with two friends, touring in Miami and then Las Vegas.
    …………………………..
    Both of Suissa’s traveling companions were also diagnosed with COVID-19, but reportedly only suffered mild symptoms.

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Immunodeficiency.

    Sometimes very normal, omnipresent pathogens that everyone is immune to will suddenly kill someone. Even if they had previously been healthy. You can have failures of the immune system cause random normal stuff to kill you or almost kill you.

    How many people who got that sick in Israel were that young?
  93. @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    An acquaintance who is a geriatric nurse tells me that the trick to ventilators is that every patient is different, and so you have to adjust the ventilation very very carefully to each patient’s condition.

    Something tells me they’re not doing this. If I know the American way, they’re just hooking them up and turning it up to overdrive and going out for a smoke.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that NYC nurses had some serious discussions among themselves about how, without adequate PPE, how much hands-on in-the-room care should they give patients on ventilators? And that the consensus was that large numbers of expert nurses going-down-with-the-ship from trying to care heroically for each ICU patient was not in the best interests of the people of NYC.
  94. @Manfred Arcane
    Well put. For the same reasons, Kirk is Captain and Spock is not, even though Spock is obviously "smarter" on a pure IQ basis.

    Clearly an error was made in TNG. The betazoid Deanna Troi should have been captain not Picard, as we can now see how amazing and wondrous and brilliant the sainted Jacinda is in NZ on account of her empath abilities. So I’ve been reading in the international media.

    So I think the leadership formula, updated for this age, should be 3SD < 2SD < (1SD + empath).

  95. @Desiderius
    The major institutions of a society are most effectively administered by +2SD types like Trump who can more effectively relate to regular folks and partake of their wisdom than +3SD experts like Steve, Spotted_Toad, Fauci and the like who work better as advisors, preferably on a team of rivals like FDR maintained to better hone their arguments.

    Aristotle and Alexander, Merlin and Arthur, Gandalf and Aragorn (yes, I know, that's what literature is for).

    The problem is that this upsets +1SDs like Mason and the journos and there are a lot more of them than us, which is why we've developed 3,000 odd years of Civilization to give the +1s more productive things to do than nonsensically ankle-bite. Abandoning said Civilization is not serving us well presently.

    Well said. In addition to the effect you observe, I think it is worth noting that leadership is a skill somewhat independent of IQ. Given that there are about 15x the number of people over 2 SD (roughly 2.2% of the population) as people over 3 SD (roughly 0.15% of the population) there is a much larger chance of finding people with high level leadership talent in the +2SD group. To add to that, roughly 16% of people are +1SD or 7x the number who are +2SD.

  96. @anonymous
    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOMLoo980zc

    The dark matter exerting its inexorable force on Pax Americana is the felt need to get birth rates down to the (lower, chief feather in their caps) death rates produced by their benign and glorious rule. This is why anything on the side of lower TFR is nigh untouchable (the Poz, abortion) and anything on the family formation side mysteriously akin to pulling teeth.

    My sense from the disparate hospitalization experiences from my 2007 transplant and my 2017 one (and the various follow-up procedures ensuing) is that letting that death rate find its way back up to a more reasonable level has been growing on TPTB for awhile.

    There is a reason (in a manner of speaking) why cells have telomeres and organisms go therough the trouble of reproducing as often as they do.

  97. This might interest some of you :

  98. @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    Current working theory, let’s see what next 6 months brings:

    The case for ventilators as therapeutic for coronavirus has been way overstated. Coronavirus hit and hospitals didn’t have any idea on how to treat + (ostensibly) reimbursement for ventilator treatment is incredibly lucrative. So, everyone in bad shape goes on a ventilator automatically in early days of this thing. Media hypes fear-porn and ventilators even more. “Shortage” of ventilators occurs.

    Ironically and tragically, ventilators are actually iatrogenic for most with coronavirus and help kill people by stressing their lungs further and pushing them right over the edge.

    This further feeds hype cycle/story of super deadly coronavirus. ie death rates are over-inflated (excuse the pun) because of ventilator caused deaths.

    Doctors begin to notice the incredibly high death rates on ventilated patients and start to make adjustments to treatment ie does not involve ventilation. There is no more ventilator shortage anymore.

    Net-net: some people (with pre-existing conditions) would have died regardless – but there are thousands of people dead b/c of ventilators that may have survived otherwise. Mortality rates drop once ventilators are phased out of treatment plans.

    In six months, this is all understood but goes unspoken amongst doctors.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Or maybe ventilators, rather than increase the death rate, merely fail to do much to lower the death rate, and at immense cost in terms of staff time and at alarming cost in terms of the staff being likely to be infected during periods of PPE shortage.
  99. @Adam Smith

    Oh, one of em! That’s only gonna last me through next week. Thanks .. I guess.

    No seriously, that was a facepalm moment there, but I’ll explain in a reply to Res.

    Back a while ago a lady in another building at work had emailed me something and then noted her exclamation point key was broken. I cut and pasted about 200 into a reply, saying that she was welcome to more any time (should have added, “you’re gonna have to pay me back … somehow..”, as we were getting along kinda well.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  100. @res
    Easiest way is to cut and paste it from:
    Replies:

    Facepalm, but I just assumed it was like the bigger dot next to… well, you don’t have one, haha! .. by us NORMAL PEON commenters’ names ;-} That is a graphic of some sort, as I can’t highlight it regularly. Anyway, Res, I really checked for an extended ASCII char. set code, etc. for about 5 minutes, but never checked that I could copy the dot. Doh!

    Thanks to both of you.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Are bullet points taxed, or banned outright, in your state? I just have to touch Kindle at her •-spot, and one appears: •••••

    √ to see if there is one built into your device. Don't mean to £ you or subject you to the ⅓°. You're on €wn now...
  101. Ivermectin is a dewormer used internally for things like heartworms and lungworms and externally for lice among other parasites. There are several other anthelminthic compounds that could be tapped into for purposes of quackery: Praziquantel, pyrantel paomate, febental. Why limit yourself to just one?

  102. @Thoughts
    New York Stock Exchange Floor

    Spitting, Screaming, Bodies Bumping up Against Each other, Old Dudes, All Men

    Why are there no stats?

    Of all the places to have a super spreader event, that would be it.

    Why isn't there one?

    If Corona was a real thing, especially in New York, at least 10% of those traders would be dead given age, maleness, drinking, and overall stress levels.

    HFT programs are pretty safe. They do most of the “work” now in this “industry” and make the most money, They are not exactly superspreaders unless their programmers are really sloppy guys like you see in the movies.

  103. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Does the hospital get it's $13,000 per ventilator usage no matter how short the stay, survive, or not?

    It’s $13k per admission for the WuFlu , The Vent gets them $39k.
    Why do you think Cuomo was so anxious to get them all moved from the Rubes Upstate to the True Believers?

  104. @varsicule
    Can someone explain to me why total deaths in the US (tracked meticulously by the CDC here) are less than previous years? You can download the entire data set going back to 2012. For the first 14 weeks of the year (the number of weeks that are marked (100% COMPLETE in the dataset), there have been 772,085 deaths in the US. Last year it was 809,704 for that period. The year before it was 836,801. And before that 811,617.

    If this disease is so horrible and warrants nuking millions of jobs, why is it not showing up in total deaths? What am I missing?

    You are missing the fact that at a minimum 200,000 people are killed by medical/hospital mistakes annually
    (that’s the number the AMA will admit to, 500k is probably closer to the truth)
    People are avoiding doctors and hospitals like, well, The Plague, so our new Finest are denied the opportunity to reap their accustomed harvest.

  105. @res

    Anyway 12% people came out of it alive meaning that ventilators saved their lives. If you are in need of ventilator w/o it you die but with it you have 12% chance to live.
     
    We don't know that. You need a RCT to determine the effect. How many of those people would have recovered without a ventilator?

    This is even more true when there are less invasive treatment alternatives.

    What about the 88% that died? Do you need RCT or do you believe that ventilators killed them which seems to be the prevailing tone in this thread. Have you objected to the title of this thread? I don’t think so.

    My understanding is that protocols developed for treatment of ARDS were used. There were good reasons for it because of the disease manifestation. In ARDS when treated (which include life sustaining ventilation ) mortality is 25-40% which is already high. More die w/o ventilators. How many people with ARDS would die if not ventilated? I presume significantly more than 40%. Ventilating is a life sustaining procedure; it is not really a treatment. While on ventilators ARDS patients die more from sepsis and other organ failures than from pulmonary issues. So this is the background that doctors were bringing into the situation of CoV patients who exhibited ARDS. Patients were dying from the lack of oxygen. Ventilation was the only thing they knew how to prolong their lives..

    Were some patience ventilated too soon? Is it true as some say that intubations was done to protect nurses and doctors from being infected that was not really necessary as patients were not dying? I do not want even go there. But somebody will.

    The protocols and procedures are being adjusted. Mortality is over two time s higher than for ARDS. It is possible that some patients will benefit form low pressure oxygenation. It is possible that some patients will only benefit from ECMO but I think that ventilation still will be used to keep soem alive longer until some antiviral or antibiotic or anti-something treatment kicks in.

  106. Women’s studies professor hopes that nonwhites find coronavirus vaccine to save the narrative.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-vaccine_uk_5ea067f2c5b6b2e5b83ba372

  107. Anonymous[659] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Ventilators, which are very expensive in terms of nursing time and risk to infecting doctors, haven't proven as critical as hoped for. Cheaper therapies that are no more ineffective have been innovated. So that has helped NYC avoid overwhelming its hospitals. On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    On the other hand, the IFR in NYC is apparently currently around 0.9%, which is pretty bad.

    Doesn’t NYC have one of the youngest populations in the country?

  108. Anonymous[659] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    About ten years ago I did what most of my acquaintances, who work in the medical field, did. I had do not intubate (DNI) and do not ressucitate (DNR) instructions added to my medical records. My PCP, who is the same age as me, tried to talk me out of this until I got him to admit he'd done the same.

    About ten years ago I did what most of my acquaintances, who work in the medical field, did. I had do not intubate (DNI) and do not ressucitate (DNR) instructions added to my medical records. My PCP, who is the same age as me, tried to talk me out of this until I got him to admit he’d done the same.

    Why did he try to talk you out of it?

  109. @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    Mr. Newman try typing this:

    & b u l l ;

    with no spaces to get the bullet you are looking for. With the spaces removed it looks like this:

    If you want to insert, add, etc…. you can find a few (I say few because there are so many HTML Name Codes available) at this reference:

    https://www.nouilles.info/keyboard_shortcuts.html

    (For posting here, at UNZ, many of the “HTML Name Code”, left column, symbols/characters will work.)

  110. Doctors in England used sleep apnea treatment and got better results than ventilators.

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-hospital-cuts-covid-19-death-rates-with-black-boxes-for-sleep-disorder-11977789

  111. @utu
    " haven’t proven as critical as hoped for" - Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived. Perhaps they would suffocate/drown without it. People are not put on ventilators as a treatment. It is not a therapy. It is the last resort life prolonging measure in hope that by keeping the patient alive a bit longer a cure, a healing or a miracle would happen. Nobody would want to get to the point that ventilating was necessary but once at that point almost everybody would beg to get ventilated.

    I wonder if there are any data on patients who were put on ECMO.

    Yes, 0.9% is pretty bad. But not so long ago almost everybody thought it would be worse.

    It will get worse. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20060160v2.full.pdf

    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald’s theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.

    The dumbasses are never going to get their economy back by promoting greater virulence. So sad.

    • Replies: @Mehen

    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald’s theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.
     

    If you look at one of my comments a few threads back, I specifically pointed out that isolating the population only gives the virus more time to mutate into a more virulent form, which could have been avoided if we allowed our younger and healthier population to confront the virus early when it was still possible to overcome its spread through herd immunity.

    It is precisely the advocates for extended lockdowns who are responsible for giving the virus more time to mutate.

  112. OT, but as a relatively new participant in these discussions, what am I to make of the occasions when my comment is held in moderation status for hours while others’ comments timestamped much later than mine are posted? Just curious.

  113. @H
    We've heard that the general nursing staff of NYC is particularly poor, and I recently came across an item which said their pre-Corona-chan hospital outcomes were worse than you'd expect. Do you suppose this extends to respiratory therapists, the nursing specialists who keep people alive on ventilators? Or does the level of support they got from the general nursing staff make it impossible to do their theoretical best? Or were they overworked much more than claimed during the period of the study?

    The one video I saw of a nurse saying she was overwhelmed and that it was a warzone from Covid

    Was…

    A venus william lookalike

  114. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    Not only that, President Trump was not suggesting some crazy ideas. His suggestions have some currency in medical research.

    e.g. Intravenous injection of household bleach.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416339

    Ultraviolet light treatment

    https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/treatment/other/ultraviolet-light

    Phototherapy for Jaundice

    https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1894477-overview

    President Trump may not be a M.D. or a Ph.D. , but he is an intelligent person exploring some out of the box thinking to alleviate the suffering of Americans.

    Lol – in your first link about the bleach ,this:

    “We report the case of a 31-year-old man who injected less than 1 mL of bleach and then experienced transient left-sided chest pain and vomiting. The patient did not have any serious complications. This report is similar to the only other reported case in the medical literature of an IV injection of a small amount of bleach. Based on these two reports, household bleach appears to be safe when used as a disinfectant by IV drug users, but more studies are needed.”

    This paper isn’t an endorsement of the use of bleach as some sort of in vivo (internal to the body) antimicrobial or antiviral treatment. It is saying that if IV drug users use bleach to kill virus in a previously used syringe (in-vitro) and some small amount of that bleach residue enters their body they wont die but will experience left sided chest pain (heart) and vomiting.

    Its almost a comical abstract.

  115. @obwandiyag
    An acquaintance who is a geriatric nurse tells me that the trick to ventilators is that every patient is different, and so you have to adjust the ventilation very very carefully to each patient's condition.

    Something tells me they're not doing this. If I know the American way, they're just hooking them up and turning it up to overdrive and going out for a smoke.

    My impression is that NYC nurses had some serious discussions among themselves about how, without adequate PPE, how much hands-on in-the-room care should they give patients on ventilators? And that the consensus was that large numbers of expert nurses going-down-with-the-ship from trying to care heroically for each ICU patient was not in the best interests of the people of NYC.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    You are really overestimating NYC nurses.

    When I was in the hospital...private cash only hospital in my own room with a view and this was the icu...(not New York but just as rich)...I had three nurses

    Some unknown race nurse of absolute incompetence (this was when racial differences hit me)

    An awesome all American nurse

    A sexy little Russian nurse who was competent but did hide out outside my room to yell at her bf on the phone

    I think the nurses at queens hospitals are more like the first nurse I encountered
  116. @Magyar
    Current working theory, let’s see what next 6 months brings:

    The case for ventilators as therapeutic for coronavirus has been way overstated. Coronavirus hit and hospitals didn’t have any idea on how to treat + (ostensibly) reimbursement for ventilator treatment is incredibly lucrative. So, everyone in bad shape goes on a ventilator automatically in early days of this thing. Media hypes fear-porn and ventilators even more. “Shortage” of ventilators occurs.

    Ironically and tragically, ventilators are actually iatrogenic for most with coronavirus and help kill people by stressing their lungs further and pushing them right over the edge.

    This further feeds hype cycle/story of super deadly coronavirus. ie death rates are over-inflated (excuse the pun) because of ventilator caused deaths.

    Doctors begin to notice the incredibly high death rates on ventilated patients and start to make adjustments to treatment ie does not involve ventilation. There is no more ventilator shortage anymore.

    Net-net: some people (with pre-existing conditions) would have died regardless - but there are thousands of people dead b/c of ventilators that may have survived otherwise. Mortality rates drop once ventilators are phased out of treatment plans.

    In six months, this is all understood but goes unspoken amongst doctors.

    Or maybe ventilators, rather than increase the death rate, merely fail to do much to lower the death rate, and at immense cost in terms of staff time and at alarming cost in terms of the staff being likely to be infected during periods of PPE shortage.

  117. @Bert
    It will get worse. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20060160v2.full.pdf


    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald's theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.

    The dumbasses are never going to get their economy back by promoting greater virulence. So sad.

    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald’s theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.

    If you look at one of my comments a few threads back, I specifically pointed out that isolating the population only gives the virus more time to mutate into a more virulent form, which could have been avoided if we allowed our younger and healthier population to confront the virus early when it was still possible to overcome its spread through herd immunity.

    It is precisely the advocates for extended lockdowns who are responsible for giving the virus more time to mutate.

    • Replies: @Bert
    You need to read up on the evolution of virulence. Start with Ewald's popular articles. The issue is not only available time. What's crucial is how rapidly infection moves from one host to the other. When the Ro is high, there is no selection against harming the host and positive selection for replicating faster than other viral strains, which leads to higher viral loads, and probably to more harm. There is evidence now of fibrosis in the lungs of young recovered infectees.

    I agree that the best plan would have been to legally sequester the elderly, man the nursing homes with on site caretakers (military if necessary), and pay younger volunteers to get infected. I proposed such a plan to several Republican senators and posted it here 6 weeks ago. Unfortunately, the Administration was incapable of making any sort of plan, so now we face the worst scenario: lots of time for evolution and 30% of the population skirting the lockdown and taking no precautions because they don't think the problem exists. The bottomline is that either accelerating herd immunity or having an extended, legally stringent lockdown would be better than the muddle that now exists.

    Note that verbal models of what it takes to achieve herd immunity are not valid. Models must be mathematical and well parameterized if you want to know what the cost of that route is.
  118. @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/man-who-died-ingesting-fish-tank-cleaner-remembered-as-intelligent-levelheaded/

    Of course. And yes, partial records for the court case involving Wanda Lenius are available online. Don’t take the Free Beacon’s word for it. I don’t, as with all media.

    https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20150226603

    https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914e2ddadd7b049348f592a

    Sigh. If only President Trump hadn’t pushed his quackery poor Gary Lenius would still be alive to continue being berated and beaten by his wife.

    Tis a sad world we live in. But at least we know who is always at fault: Trump.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    It should be clear to any reasonable and well-informed person that Gary Lenius was the victim of a domestic violence homicide. His wife is obviously a deranged prog grifter. At some point I expect she'll be prosecuted for homicide. The MSM reporting on this was a disgusting example of the vilest kind of fake news.
  119. Anonymous[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @varsicule
    Can someone explain to me why total deaths in the US (tracked meticulously by the CDC here) are less than previous years? You can download the entire data set going back to 2012. For the first 14 weeks of the year (the number of weeks that are marked (100% COMPLETE in the dataset), there have been 772,085 deaths in the US. Last year it was 809,704 for that period. The year before it was 836,801. And before that 811,617.

    If this disease is so horrible and warrants nuking millions of jobs, why is it not showing up in total deaths? What am I missing?

    What am I missing?

    Isn’t it about time Tucker Carlson(and by extension Donald Trump) said, “Sailer made me do it?”

  120. @Achmed E. Newman
    Facepalm, but I just assumed it was like the bigger dot next to... well, you don't have one, haha! .. by us NORMAL PEON commenters' names ;-} That is a graphic of some sort, as I can't highlight it regularly. Anyway, Res, I really checked for an extended ASCII char. set code, etc. for about 5 minutes, but never checked that I could copy the dot. Doh!

    Thanks to both of you.

    Are bullet points taxed, or banned outright, in your state? I just have to touch Kindle at her •-spot, and one appears: •••••

    √ to see if there is one built into your device. Don’t mean to £ you or subject you to the ⅓°. You’re on €wn now…

  121. @COVID Kids
    It ranks up there with being cateterized on my list of medical procedures I would prefer to pass on. I think my living will says no vents. I better check that.

    Yeah. I ought to set one up I suppose. I don’t know whether intubation can include other things but there must be a way to set uo a will that instructs doctors about their allowances with my health and, ideally, when to administer a lethal dose of morphine.

    It’s good to have a doctor in the family. Unfortunately, the hitherto go-to, my maternal uncle has come down with parkisons, my second cousin is an asshole of the highest order and my brother’s family responsibilities caused a cessation of his medical studies. Unfortunately, my mother, whom I trust 100% to ensure I get the right medical care, is religious en extremus and might not toss me into chryonic suspension should the time be right.

    More concerning is why the hell I should even be thinking about such things!

    Ironically it’s an article from the NYTimes with good news that brings me to such doubts.

    The Latest NYT Headline:

    Nearly All Patients Hospitalized With Covid-19 Had Chronic Health Issues, Study Finds

    I can’t say for certain what that means other than that they list the three chronic issues as being obesity, high blood pressure, and diabetes.

    By strict medical terms my BMI just crosses over into “moderately obesity (you would be surprised how small a gut is required for such a designation)”. I also have no idea whether I have diabetes or high blood pressure.

    According to modern health cultural shaming and the lucrative medical industry I should have both. I eat with no regard to paid to any special diet, I’ve just hit what they call middle age and I love sugary things.

    But strangely I feel fine.

    Am I “at risk”? I mean, would I count as having “chronic health issues” if I were hospitalized with Covid?

    Damn if I know.

    I have continually, in the most douchey manner, reminded everyone that I said from the start – and throughout – that this is a dangerous hysteria likely to up the hypochondria of most people. What I failed to mention is that I’m not entirely immune to it myself. Is anyone?

    I haven’t thought about my health in years. Now I can’t help but wonder. Did I have Covid? Will I have Covid? Will I die from it?

    I’m more protected from such attacks on my psyche than most people but only a hermit in the woods, protected from the thoughts and worries of all other men (and women) is fully immune.

    Only Simeon Bar Yochai and Zarathustra are vouchsafed safety.

    And so, I am not annoyed. Not only that I got hoarse from shouting “You’re All Mad!” but whether my hoarseness may have other meanings as well.

    A few weeks ago I walked across the tracks to a gang of Gypsy Railroad Scavengers to demand a puff from the hash they were smoking. Today, with the world coming around to my own point of view, I steered clear of some pleasant kids who were smoking the same.

    The hypochondria came to me late. As a Rebel it was easy to have confidence in my extraordinary mind. As the war winds down it’s harder to have confidence in any sense of extraordinary health.

    Logic dictates that I’m fine, but with the fight over, my own sense of invulnerability winds down, as I return to being a slightly middle age, slightly overweight, omnivore, un-extraordinary among the masses. And, for the first time in over a dozen years, prompted by nothing but the hysteria of others, the fear sensors in my mind consider the question whether I have some undiagnosed “chronic health issue” too.

    It annoys me to discover that there has apparently been a tiny sleeper cell of irrational hypochondria dormant in my own mind, awaiting the call of The New York Times. And for the first time, my own sense of mental impenitrability is shaken and it makes me mad.

    C’est la vie mes amis!

  122. @utu
    You Really Don't Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    "...who did not receive mechanical ventilation ..." - Because they did not need it. Isn't that people get ventilated when they are suffocating or drowning in fluids and ventilation postpones their imminent death. Is it possible that some people are put on ventilators too soon?

    You Really Don’t Want to Get [To the Stage When the Only Thing They Can Do For You Is Getting You] Ventilated

    Yes, in the sense that the differential in mortality doesn’t prove that ventilators are actually killing people – not a controlled experiment.

    No, in the sense that an intervention that fails 90% of the time obviously isn’t an effective intervention. If you go on a ventilator, you’re probably going to die whether the ventilator is there or not. And if I were on my death bed, I might very well want to try for a 10% hail mary anyway, but for all we know, the same 10% might recover without a ventilator. No one’s going to do a controlled experiment, but it’s quite possible that the real NNT for ventilators [in CV cases] is north of 50.

    Ventilation is equivalent to a priest reading you your last rites – and a lot of folks would probably rather have an actual priest do that.

  123. You Really Don’t Want to Get Ventilated

    I don’t need statistics to figure that out.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    You Really Don’t Want to Get Ventilated
     
    I don’t need statistics to figure that out.
     
    Starbucks will happily Grandelate you for somewhat less:


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/39/82/f5398262c26f496d10fb7d4816e0d6b2.png

  124. @Achmed E. Newman
    Oh, one of em! That's only gonna last me through next week. Thanks .. I guess.

    No seriously, that was a facepalm moment there, but I'll explain in a reply to Res.

    Back a while ago a lady in another building at work had emailed me something and then noted her exclamation point key was broken. I cut and pasted about 200 into a reply, saying that she was welcome to more any time (should have added, "you're gonna have to pay me back ... somehow..", as we were getting along kinda well.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    OK, that looks like enough material to break into about 10 smaller dots. I'll get my slaves, and a couple of virtual sledge hammers.
  125. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that NYC nurses had some serious discussions among themselves about how, without adequate PPE, how much hands-on in-the-room care should they give patients on ventilators? And that the consensus was that large numbers of expert nurses going-down-with-the-ship from trying to care heroically for each ICU patient was not in the best interests of the people of NYC.

    You are really overestimating NYC nurses.

    When I was in the hospital…private cash only hospital in my own room with a view and this was the icu…(not New York but just as rich)…I had three nurses

    Some unknown race nurse of absolute incompetence (this was when racial differences hit me)

    An awesome all American nurse

    A sexy little Russian nurse who was competent but did hide out outside my room to yell at her bf on the phone

    I think the nurses at queens hospitals are more like the first nurse I encountered

  126. @JimB

    You Really Don't Want to Get Ventilated
     
    I don’t need statistics to figure that out.

    You Really Don’t Want to Get Ventilated

    I don’t need statistics to figure that out.

    Starbucks will happily Grandelate you for somewhat less:

  127. @Mehen

    The above-linked new research paper concludes, “In short, our study provides direct evidence that mutations currently occurring in the 347 SARS-CoV-2 genome have the functional potential to impact the viral pathogenicity.”

    To the extent that the corona-deniers succeed in reducing social distancing, Paul Ewald’s theory will soon have another example of easy transmission leading to the evolution of greater virulence.
     

    If you look at one of my comments a few threads back, I specifically pointed out that isolating the population only gives the virus more time to mutate into a more virulent form, which could have been avoided if we allowed our younger and healthier population to confront the virus early when it was still possible to overcome its spread through herd immunity.

    It is precisely the advocates for extended lockdowns who are responsible for giving the virus more time to mutate.

    You need to read up on the evolution of virulence. Start with Ewald’s popular articles. The issue is not only available time. What’s crucial is how rapidly infection moves from one host to the other. When the Ro is high, there is no selection against harming the host and positive selection for replicating faster than other viral strains, which leads to higher viral loads, and probably to more harm. There is evidence now of fibrosis in the lungs of young recovered infectees.

    I agree that the best plan would have been to legally sequester the elderly, man the nursing homes with on site caretakers (military if necessary), and pay younger volunteers to get infected. I proposed such a plan to several Republican senators and posted it here 6 weeks ago. Unfortunately, the Administration was incapable of making any sort of plan, so now we face the worst scenario: lots of time for evolution and 30% of the population skirting the lockdown and taking no precautions because they don’t think the problem exists. The bottomline is that either accelerating herd immunity or having an extended, legally stringent lockdown would be better than the muddle that now exists.

    Note that verbal models of what it takes to achieve herd immunity are not valid. Models must be mathematical and well parameterized if you want to know what the cost of that route is.

  128. @XYZ (no Mr.)
    https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/man-who-died-ingesting-fish-tank-cleaner-remembered-as-intelligent-levelheaded/

    Of course. And yes, partial records for the court case involving Wanda Lenius are available online. Don't take the Free Beacon's word for it. I don't, as with all media.

    https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20150226603

    https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914e2ddadd7b049348f592a

    Sigh. If only President Trump hadn't pushed his quackery poor Gary Lenius would still be alive to continue being berated and beaten by his wife.

    Tis a sad world we live in. But at least we know who is always at fault: Trump.

    It should be clear to any reasonable and well-informed person that Gary Lenius was the victim of a domestic violence homicide. His wife is obviously a deranged prog grifter. At some point I expect she’ll be prosecuted for homicide. The MSM reporting on this was a disgusting example of the vilest kind of fake news.

    • Replies: @Mehen

    It should be clear to any reasonable and well-informed person that Gary Lenius was the victim of a domestic violence homicide.
     
    That’s not unreasonable but I think the far more likely explanation is that he took a fricken TEASPOON of the stuff which is like 5000 milligrams, perhaps because he didn’t have a scale. I, too, was one who purchased the notorious “fish tank cleaner” in early March when I was panicking. It is chemically equivalent.

    But I do agree with you about the absolutely corrupt way this story was presented in the corporate media.

  129. @Alice
    Sir, do you really not know that data has been available at your state or county level, probably on their website, for the last month? You can build the data tables yourself. Or you can look and see what some other good folks have done.

    But if you had been paying attention, you'd know that our CDC allowd states to code deaths differently, now allowing "suspected death with" instead if "test confirmed death by". So you can no longer compare apples to apples and must look at all-cause mortality. the most telling indicator is thr number currently hospitalized, and number of ICU beds filled. if you go back and look at the U W imhe data, you'll see the outrageous projections, but you might also see your state's total available beds.

    A helpful primer for you would be the red-pilling Alex Berenson's twitter feed.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1246795837080035333&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerlineblog.com%2Farchives%2F2020%2F04%2Fattention-citizens.php

    You can build the data tables yourself.

    yeah, was looking at that today. Some numbers I saw has the death rate kind of holding steady. Which is very odd since doctors have learned a lot in the last 2 months.

  130. You Really Don’t Want to Get Ventilated

    Not to mention get Mentholated.

    garrblblbagaggarbble

    [MORE]

  131. @utu
    " haven’t proven as critical as hoped for" - Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived. Perhaps they would suffocate/drown without it. People are not put on ventilators as a treatment. It is not a therapy. It is the last resort life prolonging measure in hope that by keeping the patient alive a bit longer a cure, a healing or a miracle would happen. Nobody would want to get to the point that ventilating was necessary but once at that point almost everybody would beg to get ventilated.

    I wonder if there are any data on patients who were put on ECMO.

    Yes, 0.9% is pretty bad. But not so long ago almost everybody thought it would be worse.

    Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived.

    That’s nonsense.

    It’s like saying that a batter who gets on base 11.9% of the time should be kept on the team. (Note: ‘on base’ rather than ‘base hit’: the 11.9% getting walked or hit by the ball).

    It is now pretty clear that personnel-intensive alternatives (encouraging expectoration, etc) are superior to forcing oxygen-rich air into a lung filling up with sputum.

    I speculated some time ago that ventilators seemed like a weird thing to do – even as a last resort – but that perhaps that it was a preferred protocol mostly because it’s not personnel-intensive.

    The medical profession could really ramp up the bodycount if they had more ventilators.

    Notice how media midwits like Sanjay Fucktard Gupta are no longer braying about those 100,000 ventilators that GM was going to be forced to produce? Notice how there’s no daily story featuring a telegenic ‘hero’ ICU nurse with lovely brown eyes telling horror stories about how they need those ventilators STAT?

    How odd – it’s all gone quiet. And not a fucking hint of contrition from those fucking arseholes.

    As others have said: for this alone, MEDIA DELENDA EST.

    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "I speculated some time ago that ventilators seemed like a weird thing to do – even as a last resort – but that perhaps that it was a preferred protocol mostly because it’s not personnel-intensive."

    But they are.

  132. Since someone here brought up the subject of HIV/AIDS, I was reminded of some of the theories that various quacks came up with back in the 80s and even 90s.

    One of my regular websites and its owner was promoting some of those quacks about how the consensus medical opinion about the HIV cause was deliberately false and done to gin up pharma profits and other Evil Things.

    Somehow, though, those quacks (some of whom claimed to be docs or medical researchers/scientists) magically disappeared after successful retro-viral HIV drugs proved dramatically lifesaving. HIV is no longer the death sentence it was once. And the quacks and their “alternative” treatments vanished (they variously claimed it was bacterial/vitamin/another underlying cause/etc.).

    Now this same website, sadly, is leading the CoronaHoax Brigades. Using their oft cited alternative medicine MD who never agrees with conventional medicine. It is all a Big Pharma Hoax anyway, or Big Medicine, etc.

    I read that stuff because I believe it is sometimes correct or at least worth being skeptical about. However, chronic “crying Wolf!” isn’t science either. None of the doctors I’ve known were trying to kill patients or in the pay of Evil forces. They were and are skeptics too.

    But Dr. Google isn’t very reliable either. In the case of new unknowns, caution extends to everyone, not just Conventional Wisdom. Wuhan Flu is new. AIDS was too. But within a few years there was no reason to reject mainstream medicine just to virtue signal ones chronic cynicism about HIV. A cautionary tale regarding too many theories with too little hard science.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    AIDS is still lethal. It's just that the annual death toll has declined by about 75%. About 15,000 people die of AIDS-generated illness every year. > 60% of these have some association with the gay male subculture and about 15% of the deaths each year among those in that life are attributable to AIDS.

    For scale, look at the general population. The distribution of causes of death each year is as follows:

    Heart disease: 23%
    Cancer: 21.3%
    Accidents: 6%
    Emphysema & allied: 5.7%
    Stroke: 5.2%
    Alzheimers: 4.3%
    Diabetes: 3%
    Influenza and pneumonia: 2%
    Kidney disease: 1.8%


    NB, outside the gay male subculture, about 0.2% of all deaths each year are attributable to AIDS-related ailments.

  133. @Jus' Sayin'...
    It should be clear to any reasonable and well-informed person that Gary Lenius was the victim of a domestic violence homicide. His wife is obviously a deranged prog grifter. At some point I expect she'll be prosecuted for homicide. The MSM reporting on this was a disgusting example of the vilest kind of fake news.

    It should be clear to any reasonable and well-informed person that Gary Lenius was the victim of a domestic violence homicide.

    That’s not unreasonable but I think the far more likely explanation is that he took a fricken TEASPOON of the stuff which is like 5000 milligrams, perhaps because he didn’t have a scale. I, too, was one who purchased the notorious “fish tank cleaner” in early March when I was panicking. It is chemically equivalent.

    But I do agree with you about the absolutely corrupt way this story was presented in the corporate media.

  134. @Achmed E. Newman
    . Thanks: @NJ Transit Commuter

    (How do you get that big vertically-centered big dot? Anyone?)

    I use & emsp; & emsp; & bull; & emsp; & emsp; (without the spaces). The em-spaces give more reliable spacing than spacebar.

    More accurately I use -u-[space] and AutoHotKey does the rest (likewise -bq-[space] for blockquotes etc). If I do HTML entities by hand I always forget the semicolon (I blame Python).

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  135. @Bardon Kaldian
    There is more to it...

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/condition-improves-of-22-year-old-in-critical-condition-with-coronavirus/

    22-year-old who was in critical condition with coronavirus regains consciousness

    The condition of a 22-year-old Israeli, with no preexisting medical issues, who was designated critical after being infected by the coronavirus, has improved and he regained consciousness nearly three weeks after he was struck with the virus.
    .....................
    Doctors and Tel Aviv’s Ichilov Hospital where Suissa is being treated said he is communicating with staff, though he remains on cardiac and respiratory support.
    .................................
    A resident of the southern port city of Ashdod, Suissa has been hospitalized since the last week of March. He had recently been in the US with two friends, touring in Miami and then Las Vegas.
    ................................
    Both of Suissa’s traveling companions were also diagnosed with COVID-19, but reportedly only suffered mild symptoms.

    Immunodeficiency.

    Sometimes very normal, omnipresent pathogens that everyone is immune to will suddenly kill someone. Even if they had previously been healthy. You can have failures of the immune system cause random normal stuff to kill you or almost kill you.

    How many people who got that sick in Israel were that young?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I don't know the situation there, I just stumbled upon that topic. I've read in the same paper that a new-born had died, though..... Most are in their 80s, 90s (that's what they say).
  136. “I Don’t Want To Be Ventilated” would make for a good Ramones song.

  137. @Kratoklastes

    Was critical for those who lived because they were ventilated. Out of 320 who got ventilated 38 survived.
     
    That's nonsense.

    It's like saying that a batter who gets on base 11.9% of the time should be kept on the team. (Note: 'on base' rather than 'base hit': the 11.9% getting walked or hit by the ball).

    It is now pretty clear that personnel-intensive alternatives (encouraging expectoration, etc) are superior to forcing oxygen-rich air into a lung filling up with sputum.

    I speculated some time ago that ventilators seemed like a weird thing to do - even as a last resort - but that perhaps that it was a preferred protocol mostly because it's not personnel-intensive.

    The medical profession could really ramp up the bodycount if they had more ventilators.

    Notice how media midwits like Sanjay Fucktard Gupta are no longer braying about those 100,000 ventilators that GM was going to be forced to produce? Notice how there's no daily story featuring a telegenic 'hero' ICU nurse with lovely brown eyes telling horror stories about how they need those ventilators STAT?

    How odd - it's all gone quiet. And not a fucking hint of contrition from those fucking arseholes.

    As others have said: for this alone, MEDIA DELENDA EST.

    “I speculated some time ago that ventilators seemed like a weird thing to do – even as a last resort – but that perhaps that it was a preferred protocol mostly because it’s not personnel-intensive.”

    But they are.

  138. @Adam Smith

    OK, that looks like enough material to break into about 10 smaller dots. I’ll get my slaves, and a couple of virtual sledge hammers.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    If I had a hammer...
  139. @AnotherDad


    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.
     
    I somewhat agree, but it's a bit more complicated.

    Trump's hydroxychloroquine wasn't from left field. I read account of the Chinese use of hydroxycholoquine, and i believe the abstract back in February. Docs were using it and getting some results--which of course can be spurious. And unlike full on "quack remedies" it's an existing drug where the side effects and risks are well known.

    What we've seen is some bad and slothful work by the "public health" and "medical establishment". Bashing quarantine in favor of lectures about racism. Zero work on preparedness. Flat out lying about masks. Not particularly rapid analysis of pathology and effective treatment. (Fortunately, some young bucks publicly called b.s. on the standard protocols, analyzed what they were actually seeing and seem to be moving the ball.)

    Saying "let's wait for the experts to pronounce" isn't all that compelling. The "experts" are often full of it and when even when not, are often too slow to process new data and change course.

    Trump’s hydroxychloroquine wasn’t from left field.

    Sure, hydroxychloroquine is a drug that possibly has some potential role in treating certain patients, but one hears stories about doctors being fired from their positions or just vilified for disagreeing with Trump over this, that is the problem.

    In the medical world people do disagree about the most effective ways to treat various conditions, but when the facts change, people usually change their minds without animosity.

    • Replies: @Mehen

    In the medical world people do disagree about the most effective ways to treat various conditions, but when the facts change, people usually change their minds without animosity.
     
    That’s precious.

    I’m guessing you have rarely worked among those in the “medical field”
  140. @Jonathan Mason

    Trump’s hydroxychloroquine wasn’t from left field.
     
    Sure, hydroxychloroquine is a drug that possibly has some potential role in treating certain patients, but one hears stories about doctors being fired from their positions or just vilified for disagreeing with Trump over this, that is the problem.

    In the medical world people do disagree about the most effective ways to treat various conditions, but when the facts change, people usually change their minds without animosity.

    In the medical world people do disagree about the most effective ways to treat various conditions, but when the facts change, people usually change their minds without animosity.

    That’s precious.

    I’m guessing you have rarely worked among those in the “medical field”

  141. @Jonathan Mason
    A lot of medical treatment is empirically determined. Medicine is not always a pure science.COVID-19 virus is a new thing. It is a good thing that new improved methods of treatment are rapidly evolving.

    However it is almost inevitable that some people would be attracted to quack remedies and that there will be charlatans willing to meet their desires. Mature people in the health sciences have to figure out what the difference is.

    What is unusual in this epidemic is that the president of United States seems to be one of the people who is promoting quack remedies. While his enthusiasm for a rapid cure is to be commended, he needs to tread more carefully so as not to do harm.

    Here is the lead-in and “bleach” comments by President Trump at yesterdays press conference. Does not seem to me as though he is advocating Bleach as the new Heroin; more just typical Trump style pontificating:

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BILL BRYAN: If I can have my next slide.

    And when that — while that comes up, you’ll see a number of some practical applications. For example, increasing the temperature and humidity of potentially contaminated indoor spaces appears to reduce the stability of the virus. And extra care may be warranted for dry environments that do not have exposure to solar light.

    We’re also testing disinfectants readily available. We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids. And I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes; isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing — just spraying it on and letting it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster. We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.

    This is not the end of our work as we continue to characterize this virus and integrate our findings into practical applications to mitigate exposure and transmission. I would like to thank the President and thank the Vice President for their ongoing support and leadership to the department and for their work in addressing this pandemic. I would also like to thank the scientists, not only in S&T and the NBACC, but to the larger scientific and R&D community.

    Thank you very much.

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Bill.

    Q Mr. Bryan —

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you’re going to test that too. It sounds interesting.

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We’ll get to the right folks who could.

    THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

    So we’ll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute, that’s — that’s pretty powerful.

    QUESTION, PRESS: But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

    THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    I agree that Trump is getting a bum steer. People should appreciate that he is an elderly man who sometimes gets confused.

    For example when he said he was being sarcastic, I believe he actually meant that he was being satirical and putting on a performance intended to mimic an incompetent and bumbling president, while in reality he was very well informed, but keeping this secret from the world to lull our enemies into a sense of false security--only the unpatriotic press gave the game away.

    He should have winked as he spoke, to make sure that even the slowest-witted got his gist.

  142. @NJ Transit Commuter
    My grandmother was a nurse and lived until her mid 80s despite having smoked most of her life and being overweight. She had a stroke at 60 and recovered and then had colon cancer surgery in her mid 60s. She refused chemotherapy even though the doctors told her she’d be dead in 6 months.

    She always said there were two rules for long life:
    1. Move your ass every day.
    2. Never let doctors touch you.

    Eventually her heart went and she had pulmonary trouble. She went into a hospice and died in her sleep a few weeks later. Had a chance to say goodbye to all her friends and family and died so peacefully my mom and I didn’t even notice. We were talking in her room when she died.

    Shortly after that my wife and I had living wills drawn up specifying no extreme measures to save our lives. You don’t want to get ventilated, you don’t want a stomach tube, you don’t want any of this stuff. What you need is the courage to know when your number comes up and face the end with dignity. At least I hope I can manage this as well as my grandmother did.

    Nicely put, NJTC.

  143. Anonymous[138] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG
    I read a study in an Aviation journal on the effects of alcohol on performance. It was years ago, so no source I’m afraid. They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months. It was done using Naval aviators, so I have no idea where they found a non- drinking control group.

    They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months.

    What? A single night of drinking has effects for SIX MONTHS? What is the theory behind that?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Well, I think I read it in Aviation Safety around 20 years ago. I found it pretty incredible myself. I just offered it up as an anecdote, but it was definitely something I read in an aviation journal.
  144. Anonymous[138] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cowboy Shaw
    Piers Morgan has gone completely troppo on this virus thing. Even those who agree with him on principle on this think he's not doing their side any good. He's gone completely mad.

    He's a strange character. It's not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn't have a coherent philosophy. I guess that can be a good thing (a foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds etc), but sometimes it's not studied contrarianism (e.g. Christopher Hitchens), but more a sign of low intelligence (e.g. Bill Maher).

    In the case of Morgan it seems to be that he's a tabloid hack through and through and he shifts and darts like a reef fish, always chasing least resistance and the blood of popular opinion.

    The saving grace is that while at present he wants to lock everyone up for sitting on the grass in the sun, at the end of this he'll probably turn on a dime and become England's leading civil liberties advocate, and then bore and harangue everyone senseless on that issue.

    Anyway, I can read the transcript like any sensible person and see that Trump wasn't suggesting anyone inject or drink bleach and the media are lying, yet again. It's extremely tedious.

    It reminds me of the Dawkins / Eugenics brouhaha a few months back and how half the population, no matter how slowly it was explained to them, could not separate discussion from endorsement. I thought this was an interesting summation of that knot: https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/

    As it is the 'low-decouplers' seem to be in the ascendency and there's not much we can do about it, and civilisation will probably just collapse and I'll have to become a pirate or something. You don't get to choose which age you live in.

    An era in which Donald Trump and Piers Morgan are commanding the heights clearly isn't one of the great ones.

    He’s a strange character. It’s not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn’t have a coherent philosophy.

    Why does America allow so many foreigners to have leading media, show hosting, and pundit roles?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    Perhaps because America attracts the best talent from all over the world.

    For some positions it simply is very difficult to find American born candidates who are well qualified. This becomes particularly evident when you have a position like President of the United States who must be native born and clearly there is a complete dearth of sane qualified candidates who are willing to stand for this office, which involves a lot of travel, unsocial hours working, living in a tied cottage,and having to supervise and evaluate the performance of incompetents.

  145. @anonymous
    Steve, perhaps you would want to comment on this article below.

    Steve will well remember the 2-minutes(hours?)(decades?) of hate Fumento earned for his The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How a Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics back in the early nineties. Fumento was a major investigative journalist talent who did some great stuff for the Washington Monthly and Commentary in the late eighties.

    It would seem that those who are impressed with Fauci as a +3SD expert reputation do not know of his unwillingness to take on Big Gay when at a time shutting down the bath houses would have saved countless lives of homosexuals not to mention millions of young people of having to be lectured endlessly on the need of having to always wear a condom by the likes of Madonna and George Michael.

    Sweden’s Semi-Lockdown: A Middle Way That Won’t Crash Their Economy
    Michael Fumento

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sweden-scandinavia-michael-fumento-coronavirus/

    Also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOMLoo980zc

    That Fumento article is not aging well. Sweden has 3.5x the number of deaths as Denmark and Norway combined, despite lower total population (SWE: 10.2M; DEN+NOR: 11.2M).

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    Maybe the deaths are just happening sooner?
  146. @Achmed E. Newman
    OK, that looks like enough material to break into about 10 smaller dots. I'll get my slaves, and a couple of virtual sledge hammers.

    If I had a hammer…

  147. @Lars Porsena
    Immunodeficiency.

    Sometimes very normal, omnipresent pathogens that everyone is immune to will suddenly kill someone. Even if they had previously been healthy. You can have failures of the immune system cause random normal stuff to kill you or almost kill you.

    How many people who got that sick in Israel were that young?

    I don’t know the situation there, I just stumbled upon that topic. I’ve read in the same paper that a new-born had died, though….. Most are in their 80s, 90s (that’s what they say).

  148. @O'Really
    That Fumento article is not aging well. Sweden has 3.5x the number of deaths as Denmark and Norway combined, despite lower total population (SWE: 10.2M; DEN+NOR: 11.2M).

    Maybe the deaths are just happening sooner?

  149. @Anonymous

    He’s a strange character. It’s not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn’t have a coherent philosophy.
     
    Why does America allow so many foreigners to have leading media, show hosting, and pundit roles?

    Perhaps because America attracts the best talent from all over the world.

    For some positions it simply is very difficult to find American born candidates who are well qualified. This becomes particularly evident when you have a position like President of the United States who must be native born and clearly there is a complete dearth of sane qualified candidates who are willing to stand for this office, which involves a lot of travel, unsocial hours working, living in a tied cottage,and having to supervise and evaluate the performance of incompetents.

  150. Ventilate, heh.. Used to mean filled with holes, like from a machine-gun.

    “My boy Sonny, he’s all-a-runny”.

  151. @danand
    Here is the lead-in and "bleach" comments by President Trump at yesterdays press conference. Does not seem to me as though he is advocating Bleach as the new Heroin; more just typical Trump style pontificating:

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BILL BRYAN: If I can have my next slide.

    And when that — while that comes up, you’ll see a number of some practical applications. For example, increasing the temperature and humidity of potentially contaminated indoor spaces appears to reduce the stability of the virus. And extra care may be warranted for dry environments that do not have exposure to solar light.

    We’re also testing disinfectants readily available. We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids. And I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes; isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing — just spraying it on and letting it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster. We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.

    This is not the end of our work as we continue to characterize this virus and integrate our findings into practical applications to mitigate exposure and transmission. I would like to thank the President and thank the Vice President for their ongoing support and leadership to the department and for their work in addressing this pandemic. I would also like to thank the scientists, not only in S&T and the NBACC, but to the larger scientific and R&D community.

    Thank you very much.

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Bill.

    Q Mr. Bryan —

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you’re going to test that too. It sounds interesting.

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We’ll get to the right folks who could.

    THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

    So we’ll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute, that’s — that’s pretty powerful.


    QUESTION, PRESS: But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

    THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

     

    I agree that Trump is getting a bum steer. People should appreciate that he is an elderly man who sometimes gets confused.

    For example when he said he was being sarcastic, I believe he actually meant that he was being satirical and putting on a performance intended to mimic an incompetent and bumbling president, while in reality he was very well informed, but keeping this secret from the world to lull our enemies into a sense of false security–only the unpatriotic press gave the game away.

    He should have winked as he spoke, to make sure that even the slowest-witted got his gist.

    • Replies: @danand

    “I agree that Trump is getting a bum steer.”
     
    Mr. Mason, stay on topic, we are discussing SARS-CoV-2, not Anthrax.
  152. Why has the Supreme Leader never suggested using vibranium to heal the sick? Seems like a no-brainer.

    • Replies: @anon
    Why has the Supreme Leader never suggested using vibranium to heal the sick?

    Because he's not President any more. But he could ask his partner Mike to speak up. Have you considered contacting the two of them with your suggestion?
  153. @Cowboy Shaw
    Piers Morgan has gone completely troppo on this virus thing. Even those who agree with him on principle on this think he's not doing their side any good. He's gone completely mad.

    He's a strange character. It's not easy to pin down where exactly he fits in the political spectrum, as he seems to change his mind a lot and doesn't have a coherent philosophy. I guess that can be a good thing (a foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds etc), but sometimes it's not studied contrarianism (e.g. Christopher Hitchens), but more a sign of low intelligence (e.g. Bill Maher).

    In the case of Morgan it seems to be that he's a tabloid hack through and through and he shifts and darts like a reef fish, always chasing least resistance and the blood of popular opinion.

    The saving grace is that while at present he wants to lock everyone up for sitting on the grass in the sun, at the end of this he'll probably turn on a dime and become England's leading civil liberties advocate, and then bore and harangue everyone senseless on that issue.

    Anyway, I can read the transcript like any sensible person and see that Trump wasn't suggesting anyone inject or drink bleach and the media are lying, yet again. It's extremely tedious.

    It reminds me of the Dawkins / Eugenics brouhaha a few months back and how half the population, no matter how slowly it was explained to them, could not separate discussion from endorsement. I thought this was an interesting summation of that knot: https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/

    As it is the 'low-decouplers' seem to be in the ascendency and there's not much we can do about it, and civilisation will probably just collapse and I'll have to become a pirate or something. You don't get to choose which age you live in.

    An era in which Donald Trump and Piers Morgan are commanding the heights clearly isn't one of the great ones.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8256269/Donald-Trump-unfollows-Piers-Morgan-GMB-host-blasted-bats-crazy-approach-coronavirus.html

    OMG! Donald Trump has now unfollowed Piers Morgan on Twitter. This is the modern day equivalent of Papal excommunication.

    Morgan must now make a declaration of repentance, profess the Trumpian Creed, and make an Act of Faith or renewal of obedience, before he can receive any further online sacraments.

    In case he has forgotten the lyrics:

    Immortal, ineffable, Trump only wise,
    Via satellites most wondrous revealed to our eyes,
    Most blessèd, most glorious, the Master of Phrase,
    Almighty, victorious, thy great Name I praise.

  154. @Ben1965
    The forced air approach is useless in severe cases. Bronchodilator plus expectorant might work, but will come with a host of other issues. How do we drain someone’s lungs without collapsing them?

    wouldn’t it have been prudent to advocate the widespread public use of cheap/avail expectorants such as (generic) Guaifenesin prophylactically to aid in preventing (degree of illness/infection of pulmonary edema – pneumonia) need for vent? if not, why not?

    generic Guaif is easily found in same Mg dosage as brand names (Mucinex) and costs about .25 of the brand. 25-30 pills < $2.00

    Only caveat, push the fluids, gotta get the gunk up and out.

  155. @Jonathan Mason
    I agree that Trump is getting a bum steer. People should appreciate that he is an elderly man who sometimes gets confused.

    For example when he said he was being sarcastic, I believe he actually meant that he was being satirical and putting on a performance intended to mimic an incompetent and bumbling president, while in reality he was very well informed, but keeping this secret from the world to lull our enemies into a sense of false security--only the unpatriotic press gave the game away.

    He should have winked as he spoke, to make sure that even the slowest-witted got his gist.

    “I agree that Trump is getting a bum steer.”

    Mr. Mason, stay on topic, we are discussing SARS-CoV-2, not Anthrax.

  156. @Jonathan Mason
    Why has the Supreme Leader never suggested using vibranium to heal the sick? Seems like a no-brainer.

    Why has the Supreme Leader never suggested using vibranium to heal the sick?

    Because he’s not President any more. But he could ask his partner Mike to speak up. Have you considered contacting the two of them with your suggestion?

  157. @Muggles
    Since someone here brought up the subject of HIV/AIDS, I was reminded of some of the theories that various quacks came up with back in the 80s and even 90s.

    One of my regular websites and its owner was promoting some of those quacks about how the consensus medical opinion about the HIV cause was deliberately false and done to gin up pharma profits and other Evil Things.

    Somehow, though, those quacks (some of whom claimed to be docs or medical researchers/scientists) magically disappeared after successful retro-viral HIV drugs proved dramatically lifesaving. HIV is no longer the death sentence it was once. And the quacks and their "alternative" treatments vanished (they variously claimed it was bacterial/vitamin/another underlying cause/etc.).

    Now this same website, sadly, is leading the CoronaHoax Brigades. Using their oft cited alternative medicine MD who never agrees with conventional medicine. It is all a Big Pharma Hoax anyway, or Big Medicine, etc.

    I read that stuff because I believe it is sometimes correct or at least worth being skeptical about. However, chronic "crying Wolf!" isn't science either. None of the doctors I've known were trying to kill patients or in the pay of Evil forces. They were and are skeptics too.

    But Dr. Google isn't very reliable either. In the case of new unknowns, caution extends to everyone, not just Conventional Wisdom. Wuhan Flu is new. AIDS was too. But within a few years there was no reason to reject mainstream medicine just to virtue signal ones chronic cynicism about HIV. A cautionary tale regarding too many theories with too little hard science.

    AIDS is still lethal. It’s just that the annual death toll has declined by about 75%. About 15,000 people die of AIDS-generated illness every year. > 60% of these have some association with the gay male subculture and about 15% of the deaths each year among those in that life are attributable to AIDS.

    For scale, look at the general population. The distribution of causes of death each year is as follows:

    Heart disease: 23%
    Cancer: 21.3%
    Accidents: 6%
    Emphysema & allied: 5.7%
    Stroke: 5.2%
    Alzheimers: 4.3%
    Diabetes: 3%
    Influenza and pneumonia: 2%
    Kidney disease: 1.8%

    NB, outside the gay male subculture, about 0.2% of all deaths each year are attributable to AIDS-related ailments.

  158. Anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:
    @kihowi

    The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
     
    Man that was a great book. It made the extremely important point that if the two sides of the political spectrum agree on the same narrative for different reasons, it will become and absolutely established fact for all time. An argument in favor of proportional representation: there's always a crazy little party that goes "I don't believe it".

    Yes, there was common cause between parents who didn’t want teen kids screwing around and gay activists who wanted everybody to worry about their problem. Normally the two groups have nothing in common.

    What other examples are there of this kind of thing?

    The ‘Baptists and Bootleggers’ thing comes to mind.

  159. @Anonymous

    They believed they had evidence that drinking enough to result in a severe hangover had a negative impact on performance for as long as six months.
     
    What? A single night of drinking has effects for SIX MONTHS? What is the theory behind that?

    Well, I think I read it in Aviation Safety around 20 years ago. I found it pretty incredible myself. I just offered it up as an anecdote, but it was definitely something I read in an aviation journal.

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