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From the Wall Street Journal:
H-1B Visas Keep Down U.S. Tech Wages, Study Shows
Research suggests the influx of skilled foreign workers has historically led to lower wages for U.S. employees; economists caution against making too much of the result
By JOHN SIMONS
March 14, 2017 5:30 a.m. ET395 COMMENTS
Silicon Valley has long portrayed the U.S. visa program for skilled foreign workers as a win-win, providing much-needed tech talent and fueling innovation and economic growth.
Critics—including President Donald Trump—have said that the H-1B visa program disadvantages American workers by allowing companies to hire cheaper foreign labor for roles that would have gone to U.S. workers.
A new research paper on the effects of the H-1B visa program on workers suggests the influx of skilled foreign workers has historically led to lower wages and employment for American tech workers. Such findings could further inflame debate around immigration of high-skilled workers, but some economists caution against making too much of the result.
Economists from the University of Michigan and the University of California, San Diego, analyzed employment, wages and other factors over an eight-year period ending in 2001. They found that, while the visa program bolstered the U.S. economy and corporate profits, tech-industry wages would have been as much as 5.1% higher in the absence of the H-1B visa program and employment of U.S. workers in the field would have been as much as 10.8% higher in 2001.
But let’s not get carried away with this wild hypothesis that the reason billionaire bosses like H-1B visas is because it means less money in the pockets of American workers and more money in the pockets of the billionaires. I mean, even if that’s what the billionaires were trying to do, how do we know that they succeeded? After all, what do billionaires know about money? They’re not economists, are they?
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2001 was long time back; Anyone who thinks U.S. tech firms can run today without foreigners can’t grab his butt even with a user manual.
What a crock of shit.
Always we are told that without slave labor/indentured labor/child labor/foreign labor the factories will stop the crops will rot in the fields etc.etc. And always we are lied to. The slaves are freed, unions are legalized, child labor outlawed, the rate of immigration reduced... and all that ever happens is that wages for the many head up and profits for the few head down.
Again with this “around” business. Why “debate around” instead of “debate about” or “debate over”?
From the Department of Duh.
Yeah we should just give up trying to hire native born Americans for tech jobs. After all, what do white Americans know about technology? Everyone knows that HP, Dell, IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook and Oracle were all founded in India.
I was gonna comment about how qualified natives don’t bother going into tech because of h1b, but your comment said it for me.
Unemployment is our strength.
Unemployment is their strength. Always was.
And let’s not forget that the reason they are billionaires is all those smart, smart guys on Wall Street who get paid million dollar bonuses and their bosses who make tens of millions, because, after all, you have to pay for talent if you want want it, right?
Were you the Indian boss or the Chinese one?
Bush used the term “compassionate conservatism.”
Trump should introduce the concept of “high wage conservatism.”
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today’s world, they are required for family formation. Women won’t marry men who don’t have good earnings. And they won’t stay married if men don’t keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.
Of course, the same can be said for the other side ("liberal" or "progressive" or whatever they are calling themselves these days). There are some differences here in the preferred exact methods used to siphon off money from the treasury, but everything else is different sales pitches to different groups of rubes.Replies: @Bill, @Harry Baldwin
Should that not be enough, we need to consider surtaxing the female half of dual-earner power couples above a certain income threshold. We don't need any more Sheryl Sandberg-types, we need universal male employment. In one stroke much of the crime problem and the gender insanity would be swept away.
Economists caution against making too little of the results.
The key is right in the article: the program boosted corporate profits. It did so at the expense of wages. Marx and Engels nod at us from the Great Beyond.
That last point is a beauty.
When did all of our media elite become disconnected spergery libertarians?
I remember hearing and making this kind of abstract argument in moral philosophy classes. But I didn’t expect people would dare to apply them in real life.
Yes it is dispiriting that corporate bosses remain uninterested in improving the lives of people who happen to be born on American soil.
Did someone say "trust busting?"
I can't fathom why I should be interested in improving the lives of those who are neither my family, my friends, nor my fellow Americans.
“Anyone who thinks that US tech firms can run without foreigners…’
Here’s one
http://misorobotics.com/
Scroll down to ‘Team’
6 min 6 sec into video, very interesting…
The Mathematical Mind, Peter Thiel and Trump (Eric Weinstein Pt. 1)
Thanks!
That demand varies inversely with price was known before Marx. Also known was that people like to buy cheaply and sell dearly. That tells the whole H1B story.
Well, with 7,200,000,000 souls having been subjected by iniquitous fate to be born foreigners to America, and only 320 million souls lucky enough to be born here, I’m hard pressed to see that any economic policy can ” dramatically improve the lives of foreigners and only hurt Americans a little bit.”
Math is so…xenophobic.
Trump should introduce the concept of "high wage conservatism."
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today's world, they are required for family formation. Women won't marry men who don't have good earnings. And they won't stay married if men don't keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @Buffalo Joe, @MBlanc46, @Maj. Kong
Why not universal basic income then? That’s something the government can easily and effectively implement. What the government can’t do is legislate ‘high wages” for everyone.
The libertarian idea of UBI is just another take on Utopia, i.e. "hey, if we do this, all our problems are solved."Replies: @Maj. Kong
A relative has spent nearly four decades in IT departments of large US insurance firms. He relates with horror how the culture at his place of work has utterly changed with the arrival of H-1B contract workers in large numbers since the Y2K crisis.
He says that early arrivals from the subcontinent made at least some attempt to acculturate—many were clearly well educated and broadly well read in English and employed below their capacities and outlook. But, he says, in the last decade, H-1B Indian arrivals to his workplace(and they are mainly Indian) neither know nor care about the West or American culture and have a greatly exaggerated and arrogant view of their own importance in the scheme of things. They eat with their hands (according to him) wet foods from their lunchboxes and openly speak of how “stupid Americans are.”
FWIW, There are some subjective, anecdotal opinions by experienced Indians in this thread who are of the opinion that Indian coders are just not very good, by and large.
https://www.quora.com/Are-Indian-developers-very-good-at-programming
The Indians who came here in the 1970s, 80s and until 1995 for graduate study in STEM were subject to basic quality filters. In the late 1990s those filters were dismantled and everybody and his cousin in Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Delhi and Chennai could take the next flight out to SFO.
When I came to the US in the 1980s, 8 out of 10 fellow Indians you met had been through the graduate school pipeline with the acculturation it entails. By 2000, the ratio had reversed. 8 out of 10 were the bodyshop Infosys/Wipro/TCS cheap labor H-1Bs.
There is no longer any distinction between 'us' and the bodyshop types.Replies: @Bill
Personally I'm not afraid of competition, even if we lose! Just let them compete from India and Make India Great, as long as I don't have to be the sucker that has to stay up all hours liasing with them.
(*) except for one woman who sounded like she thought she was a princess. And another who spoke to everyone as though she was a kindergarden teacher and everyone else were pupils. These were both unusual cases, but I don't think I've heard any other group put such 'tone' in their voices as these Indian women.
Math is so...xenophobic.Replies: @Opinionator, @bomag
Interesting point
O the delusions of Indians. If I had a penny for every time I heard from Indians that “we created Silicon Valley”…
Exaggerated view of their importance – check.
The Indians who came here in the 1970s, 80s and until 1995 for graduate study in STEM were subject to basic quality filters. In the late 1990s those filters were dismantled and everybody and his cousin in Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Delhi and Chennai could take the next flight out to SFO.
When I came to the US in the 1980s, 8 out of 10 fellow Indians you met had been through the graduate school pipeline with the acculturation it entails. By 2000, the ratio had reversed. 8 out of 10 were the bodyshop Infosys/Wipro/TCS cheap labor H-1Bs.
There is no longer any distinction between ‘us’ and the bodyshop types.
Hah. There’s such a “shortage” that they’re firing American workers and making them TRAIN these H-1B things as their REPLACEMENTS. There’s such a shortage that Microsoft drastically downsizes while Bill Gates demands more visas.
What a crock of shit.
Mass immigration (and H-1B in particular) certainly has some benefits for technological advancement, but it also has its downsides. Its biggest downside is that it removes almost every incentive for Western businesses and institutions to find ways to nurture native talent and cultural attitudes. They can now afford to encourage short-term, consumerist thinking in the West because citizens of Western countries are more valuable as consumers to be preyed upon than as productive workers who generate wealth. It also removes much of the incentive for Western workers to improve their skills, since businesses have made it quite clear that they’re not very interested in hiring you.
Here in Silicon Valley there are new 'universities' (a building with a parking lot) filled with students from Andhra. How these schools received permits to issue I-20 forms (required for students to seek student visas) I shall never understand.Replies: @E. Rekshun
With every passing day Trump is increasingly shown to be right.
80 Percent Oppose Sanctuary Cities
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/02/21/poll-80-percent-oppose-sanctuary-cities/
Mixed race singer & Trump supporter Joy Villa, who wore a ‘Trump’ gown to the Grammy Awards and received violent threats from Leftists said:
“I was tired of the bullying,” she said in a phone interview. “I was tired of being pushed down so that I couldn’t say my beliefs. And being fearful of losing sales. Losing fans. Losing bookings. Losing contracts and sponsorship. You know, that’s my day to day. And a lot of my friends have the same thing. And we live in Hollywood, which is supposed to be the most open viewpoint city. But the truth is there was a lot of hate and a lot of negativity and I wanted to change the storyline to love and support and unity as an American.
You can’t even talk about it with other supporters because you feel like, I don’t want people to find out. It was really like a closeted feeling. And I know gay Trump supporters in my community who say, ‘This feels like being closeted again. I feel like I can’t come out of the closet and talk about being a Trump supporter because I will get attacked.’”
Maybe they cannot. But let’s train native-born Americans so that they can.
Indians are notorious for hanging around piracy boards and asking “Please send me the codes”
David Brooks was on Charlie Rose last night:
There’s more good stuff there, like when he condemns people trying to “build walls”. 😉
Obama, the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Meryl Streep, David Brooks: these are all obviously nice people. They never say anything bad or angry or rude. Why can't the whole world be ruled by people like them, who aren't perfect, but who are obviously kind, well-intentioned, and mild-mannered? Why elect such ugly people, who say unpleasant things?Replies: @Desiderius, @DB Cooper
That admission is all I really want out of most progressives. No nation on earth has successfully combined what we're trying to combine right now: racial diversity, classically liberal freedom, and a generous welfare state. Multiple states have combined two of the three, but never all three.
We need to be allowed to express skepticism (even "fear") about this radical experiment without being called racist. However, that skepticism should be expressed intelligently, which many on the alt-right seem incapable of doing.Replies: @Opinionator
We're more interesting because we all agree with the politically correct dogma.We’ve become a more tolerant culture.
We're more tolerant because we assault, shout down, and deprive of his livelihood anyone who is intolerant, i.e., who challenges the politically correct dogma.Replies: @Forbes
Just get over it and call him a Nazi...
From the late 19th century until the mid-1950s, my area was a destination location for stoop labor for the local steel mills. Europeans at first, then Southern Blacks and some Mexicans, and, last, Puerto Ricans and some Europeans again, the last courtesy of relocated folks from Communist Europe.
This was all about local iron and steel capitalists wanting to grab as much market share as possible as quickly as possible in a massively growing market for their products. The abilities of the already existing workers, mostly folks of English and some German stock, had nothing to do with the decision to recruit foreign-born workers, and those from other parts of the U. S.
Beginning in 1977 the local steel mills began shutting down, displacing tens of thousands of workers. There’s still a remnant steel industry doing specialty work, owned most prominently by French and Russian capital.
Today, you can see in my area the children and grandchildren of that last cohort of fairly well-paid steelworkers unable to earn an inflation-adjusted wage or salary that matches Dad’s or Grandpa’s from a half-century ago. The steel capitalists and their offspring did okay. The collection of a local art institute founded by a steel baron is reportedly worth $300 million. There are a handful of foundations with assets at around $50-$200 million bearing the names of long dead moneybags.
I’m not sure my example above offers anything that applies to the tech industry, but I offer it as a sort of cautionary note. I don’t have any great answers.
Have several family and friends who work in high-tech code-writing fields. When the imported Indians get into management, they routinely pass over better-qualified white guys and hire more Indians. Diversity — the gift that keeps on giving.
Reduce the number of H1b visas by 30%. Then sell them in a sealed bid auction. Nothing like a market to reveal the actual value.
Zero them out. Observe how corporations, American students, and American workers respond to the incentives that creates.
In the late 90’s I changed careers, from a trade that was being overwhelmed by Eastern Europeans coming over after the fall of Communism, to Computer Programming. There were companies then offering $5000 sign on bonuses to new employees because there were so many jobs to fill. This made the classes I was taking be filled to capacity as everybody was trying to get into the field. Around this time, companies like Microsoft started sending more jobs overseas and hiring more and more H1b people. Bill Gates said not enough people in this country were taking classes in Computer Science so he was forced to do this. Total B.S.! The demand for classes was so great that the school I attended had to turn people away! After the jobs started to go overseas and they started to hire H1bs, the school looked like a ghost town.
To the WSJ, keeping wages down is a feature, not a bug.
Sadly this won’t convince any economists
Economists would say that the displaced American worker will move up into a higher paying job. Therefore it’s good for the American economy having an Indian making 50k, displaced worker making 85k in his higher paying position than paying 70k to a single worker.
In reality we end up with entry engineering grads doing technician work
I’ve noticed it as well. They always go home to get a wife for a month or two, then she moves here, stays home, interacts only with other Indian wives.
Finally, in the broader context of immigration policy, it is dispiriting that both conservative and liberal Americans remain so uninterested in improving the lives of people who didn’t happen to be born on American soil. ”
Yes it is dispiriting that corporate bosses remain uninterested in improving the lives of people who happen to be born on American soil.
Did someone say “trust busting?”
Tech companies like hiring foreigners because they’re on campus 24/7, are meek and compliant, don’t expect to have evenings and weekends off, don’t have pesky things like families and girlfriends, don’t go looking for a new job, etc.And they work cheap. But we have more than enough American students who could do those jobs if the idiots in the federal government stopped or at least curtailed this program.
Supply and demand, people.
Who cares what some study shows…Native Born White American Tech Workers already know what the very nasty consequences of H1-B…L1B Visa Program are…I’ll take this any day of the year over study X…versus study Y policy wonkery any day of the week….
It is getting very late in the game you know….one minute before midnight……demographically speaking…..
Trump should introduce the concept of "high wage conservatism."
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today's world, they are required for family formation. Women won't marry men who don't have good earnings. And they won't stay married if men don't keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @Buffalo Joe, @MBlanc46, @Maj. Kong
Excellent point, but keep in mind that at the political level, “conservatives” are funded by big businesses and for them cheap labor is the entire point. Everything else are bells and whistles to attract the rubes.
Of course, the same can be said for the other side (“liberal” or “progressive” or whatever they are calling themselves these days). There are some differences here in the preferred exact methods used to siphon off money from the treasury, but everything else is different sales pitches to different groups of rubes.
Because we want to help you overcome your objectively disordered desire to smoke pot and play video games all day.
Of course, the same can be said for the other side ("liberal" or "progressive" or whatever they are calling themselves these days). There are some differences here in the preferred exact methods used to siphon off money from the treasury, but everything else is different sales pitches to different groups of rubes.Replies: @Bill, @Harry Baldwin
Yeah, exactly. Want to understand the twists and turns of GOP policy positioning over its history? Just ask yourself: what was good for management and ownership of business that year. When the tariff was good for business, the GOP was pro-tariff. When the tariff became bad for business, the GOP became anti-tariff. Cheap labor is always good for business, so the GOP has always been the cheap labor party.
The Indians who came here in the 1970s, 80s and until 1995 for graduate study in STEM were subject to basic quality filters. In the late 1990s those filters were dismantled and everybody and his cousin in Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Delhi and Chennai could take the next flight out to SFO.
When I came to the US in the 1980s, 8 out of 10 fellow Indians you met had been through the graduate school pipeline with the acculturation it entails. By 2000, the ratio had reversed. 8 out of 10 were the bodyshop Infosys/Wipro/TCS cheap labor H-1Bs.
There is no longer any distinction between 'us' and the bodyshop types.Replies: @Bill
Yeah, my observation as well. It would be interesting to see an analysis of 1) caste background mix, and 2) % with a degree from an IIT for Indian immigrants over time.
You’d be amazed how many economists deny supply and demand when it comes to immigration and labor markets. It’s mind-boggling, really.
Gee who could have guessed that importing serfs from developing countries would be cheaper than employing free natives
As Drake points out, things like immigration restriction and *gasp* fair trade policies would inevitably raise wages without needing to “legislate high wages.”
Well, an imbecile can understand that adding a deluge of new employees willing to work longer hours for less money will both drive down wages and result in the firing of U.S. citizens. But then, most economists are worse than imbeciles: they are filthy whores.
Now, the problem is also in the schools. Go to any technically oriented college in the nation and its awash in Indians and Chinese, and maybe some Russians or such. University seats are currency of high value, yet we hand them out as if they were nothing, to the detriment of our nation. (This applies equally to medical professions.)
Of course, the highly compensated, cucked out Super Progs who run the universities will never change this. Trump really should see about some kind of limit on the number of foreign students allowed. I would prefer zero, which it should be, but I’ll take what I can get.
Though at this point we’re also awash in Chinese and Indian anchor babies who will also go to these schools. But then, some of them get progged up via their American education and end up being Grievance Studies majors.
Student visas should be ended or drastically curtailed. Could Trump do that via Exec order?
Anyone who thinks America can’t run without a lot of (so-called) “tech firms” has his head up his ass.
Nixon was in favor of universal basic income. Charles Murray (yes, that Charles Murray) wrote a book endorsing a similar plan. But then people’s lives would be, as Murray put it, in their own hands. Government cannot tolerate that.
Of course, the same can be said for the other side ("liberal" or "progressive" or whatever they are calling themselves these days). There are some differences here in the preferred exact methods used to siphon off money from the treasury, but everything else is different sales pitches to different groups of rubes.Replies: @Bill, @Harry Baldwin
It appears that to the billionaire donor class, immigration — open borders/amnesty/H1-B visas — is the number one issue. Everything else is a lower priority. Pressure from donors is why the leadership of both parties has been in agreement on immigration policy.
Some of those foreign H-1Bs are superstars. When you hire a superstar away from say India, you get one superstar, and India gets one less. So American competitiveness compared with India increases by 2 superstars.
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.
And it doesn't require a high end job first to show talent. Contributing some important improvements to open source projects can be a quick way to talent recognition. Or just write a popular free Android app.
All this said, privately employed low fertility Asian tech workers ought to be priority number 73 for immigration reform. I won't care much if we never reach it, and would be open to even more Asian skilled immigrants if it is part of a deal that ends diversity lottery, refugees, TPS, and greatly reduces family unification.Replies: @Opinionator, @Anonymous
In any case, America has—and always has had—many, many more native-born superstars than there are Indian superstars.
That's why the United States is the United States, and India is just...well, India.
It was a dark and stormy night and Steve Sailer is all about the ladies. Sailer noticed back in 2015 that dames who code are being attacked by greedy cheap labor hogs who use the H-1B visa to displace US lady STEM workers and keep their wages low. Sailer knows that the gals are good on borders and immigration IF the issue is framed in the right way.
White women are good fighters, but they don’t mind if the men do a bit of brawling too. Sailer seems to have been channeling the famous Brenda Walker — also known as BRENDA THE BRAVE — when he suggested back in 2015 that it ain’t such a good idea to flood the USA with foreigners who are anti-Women in their outlook.
Sailer wrote:
“Also, does bringing in a lot of H-1Bs from cultures with less advanced gender attitudes tend to create a hostile work environment for those American women coders who manage to keep their jobs? That’s what I heard from a family friend.”
The Patriotic GOP is going to need every damn White female vote possible. The immigration issue needs to be reframed so as to make it more palatable for White lady voters.
White lady voters know that open borders mass immigration lowers wages, displaces US workers, increases housing costs, swamps schools, overwhelms hospitals and harms the environment. White women voters know that open borders mass immigration brings Islamic terrorism to the USA and brings in foreigners who have ingrained anti-Women attitudes. White women know that foreign women are being rewarded with luxury benefits from the government.
Steve Sailer understands that women voters have had enough of the anti-sovereignty nonsense from GOP Globalizer politician weasels such as Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. American women will support the Patriotic GOP if they feel that the Patriotic GOP fights for them.
Attention Men:
Women voters want you to fight for them and if you don’t know that your a stupid bonehead.
PS. I just don't agree with you at all here, but I've agreed with almost all your previous tweets and all. As for Brenda Walker, there are always exceptions, and she is indeed exceptional - someone's got to speak up for the real California. Brenda is the best.
In other news, laws of supply and demand still exists…
“Unemployment is our strength.”
Unemployment is their strength. Always was.
I notice Google celebrated the Indian holiday Holi instead of the simultaneous Purim.
Hamilton was not part Jewish, his mother was wed to a Danish Jew much older than she when she was young and before Alexander was conceived.
Importing cheap labor keeps the economy growing which contributes to the future value of investments which benefits everyone. In my opinion, we should stop it but that contraction will hurt, too.
Bottom line, the population explosion in the rest of the world is coming to us now. And Europe.
There are three options: do nothing and have the first world turn into a fractious extension of the third. Lock up and watch them collapse. Colonize them and make them like us. All scenarios will have ugly guilt inducing consequences.
Their populations are exploding largely due to western interventions.Replies: @Spmoore8
Yes, for some reason the “if you want talent, you have to pay for it” argument only applies to corporate executive level work. It’s almost enough to make a person think the elites have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
And H1B gets US companies people who may be smart but who are also compliant and not willing to make much noise. So in the end, the products produced are worse.
You might say I am wrong and point to all the great web applications. Yes, what about those web applications that download their entire runtime environment as libraries. Have you watched the actual web traffic when a page loads? Office 365 anyone???
Where are the people saying that this is a stupid idea?
Just some unemployable 60 year old guy yelling at the clouds…
Hamilton was not part Jewish, his mother was wed to a Danish Jew much older than she when she was young and before Alexander was conceived.
Importing cheap labor keeps the economy growing which contributes to the future value of investments which benefits everyone. In my opinion, we should stop it but that contraction will hurt, too.
Bottom line, the population explosion in the rest of the world is coming to us now. And Europe.
There are three options: do nothing and have the first world turn into a fractious extension of the third. Lock up and watch them collapse. Colonize them and make them like us. All scenarios will have ugly guilt inducing consequences.Replies: @Desiderius, @Desiderius
First, do no (less) harm.
Their populations are exploding largely due to western interventions.
Not sure where this is going.Replies: @Desiderius, @stillCARealist
Trump should introduce the concept of "high wage conservatism."
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today's world, they are required for family formation. Women won't marry men who don't have good earnings. And they won't stay married if men don't keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @Buffalo Joe, @MBlanc46, @Maj. Kong
Drake, if Trump called for high wages wouldn’t they play into the call by libs that the minimum wage should be $15 an hour. Or do you mean really high wages like $100k, or wouldn’t that make teachers and police and firefighters want more? What is a high enough wage? Not trolling you, but you need some sort of scale.
Hamilton was not part Jewish, his mother was wed to a Danish Jew much older than she when she was young and before Alexander was conceived.
Importing cheap labor keeps the economy growing which contributes to the future value of investments which benefits everyone. In my opinion, we should stop it but that contraction will hurt, too.
Bottom line, the population explosion in the rest of the world is coming to us now. And Europe.
There are three options: do nothing and have the first world turn into a fractious extension of the third. Lock up and watch them collapse. Colonize them and make them like us. All scenarios will have ugly guilt inducing consequences.Replies: @Desiderius, @Desiderius
Not if the expenses are off-book.
Trumps a liar and a fraud. Visas are a small part of the massive unfolding fail.
1500 troops to the middle east! The mofo promised to bomb isis he never said boots on the ground because he wouldn’t have been elected.
He promised to end the drug flow over the southern border and those troops could’ve gone there! LIAR.
America can never have troops defending its own border apparently. Syria? Yes. America? No.
F*** Trump.
So maybe the tech industry would be a bit smaller. Maybe progress would be a bit slower. Maybe a few more of the globally leading software companies would be based in Singapore or Bangalore or London or Detroit.
So what?
We returned not long ago to the Bay Area after living in France for a few years. Having spent two decades here - a time when "tech" meant Intel or AMD - the return was shocking. There was, of course, the "dot com" period where various web companies and services made some people fabulously wealthy.
But today, when people here tal about "tech," almost universally what they really mean is some 3 man company producing an application for the iPhone.
A couple of years ago, there was a "company" called "Yo" whose product was a useless 'app' that sent just the two byte character set "YO" across from one phone to another. At the time, allegedly Netscape founder Marc Andreesen invested a million dollars in this idea, talking about what a huge breakthrough it was.
http://sjrefugee.blogspot.com/2014/09/whats-big-idea.html
I remember also the famous quip of Peter Thiel:Some of the new things coming out of "Silicon Valley" (which today is increasingly one-room rented office space in former warehouses in San Francisco) truly does bring value.
But the idea that this crap is "tech" and requires hired foreign "geniuses" is laughable.
Let’s watch the effect that deportations have on Mexico wages, since all of those leaving the USA are “high wage earners” compared to Mexican wages. We all ready know, according to the NYT, that returning illegals will tighten up job opportunities in Mexico.
That is a big concern. Trump didn’t need the donors so he could oppose them. Who can pick up the reigns in 8 years? Campaign finance reform is a necessity.
Too bad the Trump administration announced last week that the h1-b visa issue IS NOT A PRIORITY.
Boots on the ground in Syria is a priority though so all you unemployed American tech guys can have a career in “peacekeeping”!
Who cares about a study that ended in 2001? That’s 16 years ago (obviously but needed to point out because someone doesn’t get it).
Technology churns so fast that these numbers mean nothing. People were still using PDAs then and Smart Phones were barely on the horizon.
If you want to write an article about H1B contracts and their impact, don’t waste your time with data that is not relevant today (2017).
Trump should introduce the concept of "high wage conservatism."
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today's world, they are required for family formation. Women won't marry men who don't have good earnings. And they won't stay married if men don't keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @Buffalo Joe, @MBlanc46, @Maj. Kong
Unfortunately, the employer class hate high wages.
Of course they do. They know who funds their research.
Teachers would have to cut back a number of their union regulations before I think they need a raise. Tenure for teacher should be merit based on standardized test scores. I had a lot of good teachers. But for every good one there was a bad one. Took a speech class in High School and never gave a speech. Crap teachers like my Speech teacher do not deserve a job teaching anything. And, I’m not going to tell you about my Math teachers.
As for firefighters and police, they put their lives on the line every minute. They should get paid more.
Their populations are exploding largely due to western interventions.Replies: @Spmoore8
After WW2: clean water, hybrid grains, electricity, antibiotics, pesticides, disease eradication, sanitation, modern medicine, etc. And the reward has been species extinction and endangerment and a fivefold increase in human population.
Not sure where this is going.
Species extinction and endangerment is not that big of a deal, is it?Replies: @Autochthon
My favorite examples of this is when they have the current US workers train their foreign replacements en mass, or else they forgo their severance.
In those cases they aren’t even trying to hide what they are doing. Aside from the assault on American workers, the hypocrisy is offensive.
The Mathematical Mind, Peter Thiel and Trump (Eric Weinstein Pt. 1)
https://youtu.be/8FmSGwvTzxk?t=6m6sReplies: @res, @Cagey Beast
He has a novel take on STEM in the US that is extremely relevant to this thread. Sample quote (8:40): “but when you hit steady state, every one of these institutions with an embedded growth hypothesis becomes a Ponzi scheme.” He earlier talks about US STEM talent being talked down starting in the 70s in order to facilitate bringing in overseas STEM talent to create growth.
Thanks!
I fixed it for him.
Almost fixed, but not quite. Try this:
"Birth is a lottery, by which some infants are randomly gifted the guarantees and opportunities of a good family while other infants are subjugated to poverty and suffering. Fully eliminating this inequity would require the dissolution of the family..."
Ethical universalism/impartialism = totalitarianism.
I’m told that graduate computer science classes at 2nd and 3rd tier US universities are now 95% foreign-born Indians and Chinese. Why would an American parent ever consider sending his child into computer science?
Here in Silicon Valley there are new ‘universities’ (a building with a parking lot) filled with students from Andhra. How these schools received permits to issue I-20 forms (required for students to seek student visas) I shall never understand.
Here's one
http://misorobotics.com/
Scroll down to 'Team'Replies: @Autochthon
…hasn’t worked with any of the innumerable successful start-ups in the Santa Clara Valley who do just that.
Is this the definitive article that demonstrated that The Atlantic has fully sold out to globalism, or were there articles prior to this one as shamelessly pro-globalism?
1500 troops to the middle east! The mofo promised to bomb isis he never said boots on the ground because he wouldn't have been elected.
He promised to end the drug flow over the southern border and those troops could've gone there! LIAR.
America can never have troops defending its own border apparently. Syria? Yes. America? No.
F*** Trump.Replies: @AndrewR, @Peripatetic commenter
Hey you’re going to hurt some commenters’ feelings with this comment.
In the Legal industry, law firms and their staffing agencies import thousands of African attorneys to perform document review, a task once the domain of low-level associates. Meanwhile, thousands of recent American law grads are underemployed, unemployed, or working in a different profession. Many of these frustrated youngsters agitate for loan relief. Do American law schools support restrictions on these foreign attorneys taking their graduates’ jobs? That would require deviating from political correctness, which is a demonstrably higher value than the fates of their young alumni.
I take it you think this is a bad thing?Replies: @Autochthon
The holy Church of Globalism. Its holy, holy spokespeople.
Obama, the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Meryl Streep, David Brooks: these are all obviously nice people. They never say anything bad or angry or rude. Why can’t the whole world be ruled by people like them, who aren’t perfect, but who are obviously kind, well-intentioned, and mild-mannered? Why elect such ugly people, who say unpleasant things?
I knew white privilege wasn’t going to be enough. Now, it’s lottery privilege. Birth in your nation was just luck, and therefore the other 7 billion deserve your country more than you do. Your people have no history, no culture, no vested labor and no color value. It’s open season on US.
A guy in my previous department was given a total of 3 months off, no exaggeration, when he got married. He was also relocated from Germany to the US and given a manager title (look up the L-1 scam) for two years so his wife could take English classes. Apparently there are some rules about official migrants to Germany that they need to know German or English, and she knew neither. Between all the relocation efforts and the months off, his mentor, another Indian guy based in the US at my office, probably gifted him a free full year’s salary.
Confirmed. Also burp without bothering to make it quiet or say “excuse me”.
This was all about local iron and steel capitalists wanting to grab as much market share as possible as quickly as possible in a massively growing market for their products. The abilities of the already existing workers, mostly folks of English and some German stock, had nothing to do with the decision to recruit foreign-born workers, and those from other parts of the U. S.
Beginning in 1977 the local steel mills began shutting down, displacing tens of thousands of workers. There's still a remnant steel industry doing specialty work, owned most prominently by French and Russian capital.
Today, you can see in my area the children and grandchildren of that last cohort of fairly well-paid steelworkers unable to earn an inflation-adjusted wage or salary that matches Dad's or Grandpa's from a half-century ago. The steel capitalists and their offspring did okay. The collection of a local art institute founded by a steel baron is reportedly worth $300 million. There are a handful of foundations with assets at around $50-$200 million bearing the names of long dead moneybags.
I'm not sure my example above offers anything that applies to the tech industry, but I offer it as a sort of cautionary note. I don't have any great answers.Replies: @Buffalo Joe
Jack, Your tale is somewhat applicable for WNY, but we never had Mexicans or Puerto Ricans flooding here. The steel mills in Buffalo were a huge component of the local economy, with good pay and outstanding benefits, including, for high seniority workers, 15 weeks of vacation every 5 years. But, the big disclaimers is that the old steel workers wanted to tell their fellow workers that their sons were a doctor, an accountant or a lawyer, not a mill hand. The mills are gone, totally demolished and buried, and the good pay checks, easily $50-75k are gone with them. All you needed back then was an “in” at the mill to get a job. Now everyone thinks you need a BS or BA minimum to find work, but would we find the workers needed if the mill job magically reappeared?
" . . . [S]teel workers wanted to tell their fellow workers that their sons were a doctor, an accountant or a lawyer, not a mill hand." Yep, that was a commonplace here also. No matter that mill workers after the big strike in 1958, or thereabouts, got paid well, and later, very well. The work was friggin' brutal. Less well known, I think, is that some of those "elevated" white collar jobs didn't pay that well, nor was the scope of professional authority that great. They took orders, many of them, and that's even more true today.
The Mexicans here were very small in number according to a local historical society lecturer. They came in the 1920s. The Puerto Ricans were more numerous and were actively recruited in the 1950s by local steelmakers. The first generation seemed to me conservative in manner and dress, and very Catholic. One family was our neighbor. The second generation, some of them, seemed to have overdosed on West Side Story. Flashy clothes, lots of attitude, polished-up cars with lotsa chrome, and bunches of hot Irish Catholic schoolgirls throwing themselves at them. Some of those Puerto Ricans and their descendants have done okay with government jobs.Replies: @Buffalo Joe
1500 troops to the middle east! The mofo promised to bomb isis he never said boots on the ground because he wouldn't have been elected.
He promised to end the drug flow over the southern border and those troops could've gone there! LIAR.
America can never have troops defending its own border apparently. Syria? Yes. America? No.
F*** Trump.Replies: @AndrewR, @Peripatetic commenter
Another troll being paid by Soros I see.
David Brooks is another columnist/diplomat/Court Jew to The Democrat Court/. He probably only half believes his long-winded jive that you posted. But he will embellish and spin for his loyal NYT readership, you can see they are loyal by the positive comments he gets. Nikolas Kristof gets the same loyal treatment.
D Brooks has a great gig at the NYT and lots of outside money rolls in due to it. Such as $30,000 per speaking engagements. $30,000 is purely my guess. If I were Brooks and started to have some major misgiving, I would keep it on the down low for my cash flow. Why jeopardize a great cash flow? This is why I call Brooks a diplomat. He gingerly walks the high brow SJW tightrope so as not offend his loyal readership and lose income.
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
George, I may be wrong, but I don’t think most of the commenters here are talking about Superstars. The average Silicon Valley tech worker who loses their job usually is not replaced by a Superstar, and I point out that many of the displaced workers are training their replacement. How could a scrub train a Superstar?
You might say I am wrong and point to all the great web applications. Yes, what about those web applications that download their entire runtime environment as libraries. Have you watched the actual web traffic when a page loads? Office 365 anyone???
Where are the people saying that this is a stupid idea?
Just some unemployable 60 year old guy yelling at the clouds...Replies: @Jacobite
What bothers me even more are those same applications that phone home with as much of my personal info that they can harvest. One can selectively block these communication processes but it is tedious.
No, you haven’t kept up. Now those wives are allowed to work thanks to Obama. So they get a job, then get pregnant and go on maternity leave with all the benefits that brings. Sweet sweet deal. Trust Indians to exploit the system.
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
Fallacious. Superstars have other visa avenues. Terminating the H-1B visa racket will in no way affect superstars. That is, if they are really superstars, not superstars deemed by the tech lobby.
It was a dark and stormy night and Steve Sailer is all about the ladies. Sailer noticed back in 2015 that dames who code are being attacked by greedy cheap labor hogs who use the H-1B visa to displace US lady STEM workers and keep their wages low. Sailer knows that the gals are good on borders and immigration IF the issue is framed in the right way.
White women are good fighters, but they don't mind if the men do a bit of brawling too. Sailer seems to have been channeling the famous Brenda Walker -- also known as BRENDA THE BRAVE -- when he suggested back in 2015 that it ain't such a good idea to flood the USA with foreigners who are anti-Women in their outlook.
Sailer wrote:
"Also, does bringing in a lot of H-1Bs from cultures with less advanced gender attitudes tend to create a hostile work environment for those American women coders who manage to keep their jobs? That's what I heard from a family friend."
The Patriotic GOP is going to need every damn White female vote possible. The immigration issue needs to be reframed so as to make it more palatable for White lady voters.
White lady voters know that open borders mass immigration lowers wages, displaces US workers, increases housing costs, swamps schools, overwhelms hospitals and harms the environment. White women voters know that open borders mass immigration brings Islamic terrorism to the USA and brings in foreigners who have ingrained anti-Women attitudes. White women know that foreign women are being rewarded with luxury benefits from the government.
Steve Sailer understands that women voters have had enough of the anti-sovereignty nonsense from GOP Globalizer politician weasels such as Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. American women will support the Patriotic GOP if they feel that the Patriotic GOP fights for them.
Attention Men:
Women voters want you to fight for them and if you don't know that your a stupid bonehead.Replies: @MBlanc46, @Achmed E. Newman
“Patriotic” and “GOP” do not belong in the same sentence, to say nothing of the same phrase. There has mot been a patriotic Repub president since Eisenhower.
President Trump is a wrecking ball. We will see what he does when a disaster comes along that calls for decisive action. I think President Trump will prove to be a patriot.
Economists would say that the displaced American worker will move up into a higher paying job. Therefore it's good for the American economy having an Indian making 50k, displaced worker making 85k in his higher paying position than paying 70k to a single worker.
In reality we end up with entry engineering grads doing technician workReplies: @Anonymous, @map
How many good-paying jobs are there? The pie seems to be only so big, despite what many economists and others might say.
Since when does the Wall Street Journal bring the laws of supply and demand into coverage of H-1B Visas? I have never seen it before but I do see more wining, some winning WSJ coverage due to The Donald Effect.
Our own native born Chinese, Korean, Hindu engineers/techies get screwed over by the flooding in of foreign born H1-Bs. How come they are not raising their voices and giving cover to the native born white techie guys?
And so I get the fact that this is a radical social experiment.
That admission is all I really want out of most progressives. No nation on earth has successfully combined what we’re trying to combine right now: racial diversity, classically liberal freedom, and a generous welfare state. Multiple states have combined two of the three, but never all three.
We need to be allowed to express skepticism (even “fear”) about this radical experiment without being called racist. However, that skepticism should be expressed intelligently, which many on the alt-right seem incapable of doing.
Exactly. Nothing wrong with the H1B concept. The problem is the numbers are far too high, to the point we are importing labor to do $70,000 a year jobs that would otherwise pay $80,000.
“but some economists caution against making too much of the result”
“but some economists, who do not have to worry about losing their jobs to H-1B’s, caution against making too much of the result”
FIFY
Not sure where this is going.Replies: @Desiderius, @stillCARealist
Knowing what a striving bitch Mother Nature is, I’d say the asteroid belt.
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
But in most cases you can. Elite programmers have a history of writing good code and very high standardized test scores.
And it doesn’t require a high end job first to show talent. Contributing some important improvements to open source projects can be a quick way to talent recognition. Or just write a popular free Android app.
All this said, privately employed low fertility Asian tech workers ought to be priority number 73 for immigration reform. I won’t care much if we never reach it, and would be open to even more Asian skilled immigrants if it is part of a deal that ends diversity lottery, refugees, TPS, and greatly reduces family unification.
What levels do they test?Replies: @Lot
Taking the best human talent out of the developing world is akin to the colonialists of old extracting the natural resources of those countries. There is no difference between that and extracting their human resources. Both are immoral and should be stopped.
The West needs to develop their own talent. They have done so successfully in the past, and will be able to do so in the future.
We’ve become a more interesting culture.
We’re more interesting because we all agree with the politically correct dogma.
We’ve become a more tolerant culture.
We’re more tolerant because we assault, shout down, and deprive of his livelihood anyone who is intolerant, i.e., who challenges the politically correct dogma.
A noticeable absence of evidence in that shovel-full...
Many don’t deny supply and demand per se. They argue I think that the immigrants create additional demand via their consumption (and possibly greater efficiencies) and that the demand offsets the additional labor supply.
The most common denialist argument is that an increase in low skill labor supply increases demand for slightly-more-skilled labor somehow and that this effect is big enough to completely offset the first order effect. This increase is sometimes mediated, as you say, by an increase in overall demand for goods and services. This increase is sometimes mediated by complementarity between low skill and slightly-higher-skill labor.
Neither type of argument makes any sense once you try to understand it practically. More illegals means more demand for toilet paper, iPhones, and plastic doo-dads (all of which are now manufactured in China and shipped to the US on ships which employ 0 Americans per ship). Then, mumble, mumble, mumble. Then, labor demand in the US increases! Yay!
The complementarity argument is just as stupid. More illegals means more labor supply for landscapers. Which means more landscaping crews. Which means more landscaping crew foremen. And they have to speak English, so, presto, more demand for slightly-higher-skill labor. Yay!
One can do a little better than this. More illegals does, of course, create more demand for nurses, doctors, immigration lawyers, and cops. But are the guys who used to be landscapers really going to get those jobs? Seriously? And, obviously, somebody has to pay for all those nurses, doctors, immigration lawyers, and cops. Mostly, that's going to be tax-payers. We could create more jobs for these people by just directly subsidizing the purchase of health care or health insurance or whatever w/o the immigration.
In any event, none of the arguments rise to the level of something an adult should take seriously. But there's no point in saying that. The powers that be in the profession have declared that these are Very Serious Arguments. People compete to come up with clever-silly arguments about how immigration is good for unskilled workers.
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
It has been my experience that the vast majority of H-1B’s are not even remotely close to “superstar” status. Rather, they are much less capable than the average American I.T. worker. They are here because they are cheap, not because they are “superstars”.
And it doesn't require a high end job first to show talent. Contributing some important improvements to open source projects can be a quick way to talent recognition. Or just write a popular free Android app.
All this said, privately employed low fertility Asian tech workers ought to be priority number 73 for immigration reform. I won't care much if we never reach it, and would be open to even more Asian skilled immigrants if it is part of a deal that ends diversity lottery, refugees, TPS, and greatly reduces family unification.Replies: @Opinionator, @Anonymous
Elite programmers have a history of writing good code and very high standardized test scores.
What levels do they test?
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
Good. Let India keep its superstars. They need them. And if they can do something for their country of birth there will be less pressure for them to migrate here.
I don’t want even the superstars here.
And it doesn't require a high end job first to show talent. Contributing some important improvements to open source projects can be a quick way to talent recognition. Or just write a popular free Android app.
All this said, privately employed low fertility Asian tech workers ought to be priority number 73 for immigration reform. I won't care much if we never reach it, and would be open to even more Asian skilled immigrants if it is part of a deal that ends diversity lottery, refugees, TPS, and greatly reduces family unification.Replies: @Opinionator, @Anonymous
If you are not going to allow the rest of the world into the West, then you shouldn’t brain drain them. I do not want to be flooded by the rest of the world. But I also understand that the rest of the world will not be able to develop if we continue to take their best talent.
Taking the best human talent out of the developing world is akin to the colonialists of old extracting the natural resources of those countries. There is no difference between that and extracting their human resources. Both are immoral and should be stopped.
The West needs to develop their own talent. They have done so successfully in the past, and will be able to do so in the future.
In banking tech, I observed the same ethnocentrism among Chinese hiring managers.
Exactly. And employers hate it for the same reason. Both government and employers want captive, dependent people.
“High wages” can’t be legislated into existence since they’re determined by the margin of production. The margin of production was reduced for most of US history because it had a frontier, and because after WW2, the rest of the industrialized world was bombed out.
The lawyer in me wants to change that to “… influx of persons represented by employers, who in the interest of fair disclosure have a vested interest in the gaming of the system, represent foreign workers they sponsor as being skilled to a degree not available in the domestic workforce, at least not at the wages they want to pay ….”
This problem seems chronically one-sided – where “one-sided” isn’t even the right word but I can’t think of the right word.
What is the word for when one team plays defense and offense, and the other chronically, incapably and despite interminal losses and re-organizations, either plays defense or offense, but never both?
This is debits without credits. It’s supply without demand.
I can assure you through direct personal, decades-long knowledge of the following:
If you work for a Fortune-500 company, this very moment your employer is paying for multiple individuals to do one job and one assignment only and this very moment they are working at it:
Find out how to end your job, and replace it with someone who is employed overseas.
The problem at the core here isn’t H1-B visas.
I could give you every single point you want to make against H1-B visas.
I could give you every single correction you wish to make to fix the problems of H1-B visas.
And it won’t do diddly-squat. It will likely make the problem worse by incentivizing employers to put more jobs overseas. That is because: if the employer can’t bring the fellow over here, from over there:
… then Free Trade permits the employer to hire the person over there and fire your sorry ass right here, so long as a technically feasible way of operationally managing it will work out.
This is made worse still by the fact that on the quarterly financial cycle all a manager has to do is show an ROI. The ROI can be completely fake, all-paper, but it’s easy to show a 5-year ROI by firing your expensive American butt-on-seat and replacing it with a someone-offshore-butt-on-seat. If, long run, offshore was operationally stupid:
No one tracks that. Ever.
And you know how India turned out to be problematic because of time zones. Look south people. Check out Costa Rica. Hint Hint. Psst Psst.
You cannot solve this problem unless you solve the free trade problem, the free trade problem is this: bait…and…switch. “Free trade” sells the voter a free market and gives the voter protectionism for capital flows. Capital can go anyway … labor, you are stuh-fuh’ck.
There is a way to correct this that is defense/offense, debit/credit, supply/demand smart, and it never, ever , ever, ever, never , never , ever gets a hearing.
Stop any/all new free trade agreements. Audit all existing free trade agreements – audit them because you may get somewhere with that. If you overshoot and try to repeal them all you will likely get no where and then be worse off for wear.
Then: create common markets with likeminded countries. Ask: why exactly isn’t your American passport good for a job in Canada? Betycha you didn’t even know that of the next 15 co-workers, 3 are already Canadian. What about inverting Brexit for more inter-connectivity between Anglo-powers? Australia? New Zealand? I know how they are about foreigners in Japan, but who knows – with stipulations like 3-5 year “guest” provisions, Japan and South Korea may even be interested.
Then you give back the laborer the same power he has, get this: in the free market, of the United States of America – where capital and labor, freely, re-allocation, equally, and you create an economically integrated, culturally coherent hyperpower to compete with all the rest of the mess.
Off-topic, but a good read, from almost a year ago: The man who seduced the 7th Fleet Semi-topical because the trials are about to begin.
It’s pretty amusing that an obscure country like Malaysia that no one can locate on a map is making the headlines for all kinds of out from left field reasons – airplane disasters, a convoluted North Korean assassination plot and now a corruption scandal.
Henry Ford had the right idea when he paid his employees $5 per day, when the “going rate” was about $1.25 per day. Of course the wall street banksters howled that his wage rate would “destroy capitalism” (as they saw it). Henry Ford did not trust banks (with good reason); his later writings confirmed that. Henry Ford HELPED CREATE the modern-day middle class, one that was able to afford products formerly only affordable for the rich…Henry Ford was successful PRECISELY because he paid his employees well…
For true capitalism to flourish, a society needs a work force that is reasonably well-paid IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE PRODUCTS THAT A CAPITALIST SOCIETY PRODUCES.
The “race to the bottom” that is presently in play will do nothing to promote true capitalism and will result in revolution with possibly deleterious results–it always does…
What is the difference between making a 10 million dollar “profit” and keeping your employees working or “offshoring” your production in order to make an 11 million dollar “profit”?? You just destroyed your “customer base” by doing so…
The “stockholder” is only one part of a functioning economy–NOT the end-all…
A functioning capitalist society is like a three-legged stool–remove any one leg and you end up with a “crash”.
The false savings by the “globalization” crowd will do nothing but harm every society that promotes it.
At this point, I pray for a collapse in the stock market. I really do.
I have seen this with my own eyes having 20 years experience in banking technology. One large British bank with a large footprint in Asia I was told by a senior manager there had a very secret HR policy to sweep departments every so often looking for that behaviour. It’s really shutting the stable door though. Chinese will steal and copy your tech. Indians will invade and stay.
The most astonishing thing I find about them in London is just how little curiosity they have for the city. The most diverse and interesting city in the world with free museums and art galleries and parks and walks and pubs and they just aren’t interested. It is fascinating. I speak to them about cricket a bit, but that’s about as far as it goes. They certainly aren’t interested in the food. My lunchtime sushi has them mystified.
Hey, that also describes one particular under-performing, dysfunctional American group.Replies: @cowboy shaw
What are the pertinent facts that brought you to this conclusion?
Personal recent anecdote here. About two weeks ago I was offered a job with an American company with offices in Seattle and London. A London project but which required an initial six months in Seattle.
For reasons not worth going into, they wanted a London experienced person to do it, and preferably an Australian or Kiwi. Job was confirmed, then got a call the next morning saying it was off – absolutely no chance of getting me in on whatever visa they were going to use. The HR people mumbled Trump.
So it sounds like there is something going on. I’m philosophical – got caught in the dragnet trying to sort out the Indian H1-B mess. But the company was livid. They hadn’t been able to fill the position for months.
Media are still going on about a muslim ban of course. No one cares about the Kiwi and Pom ban I guess.
Seattle is rainy and provincial. It would get on your nerves quickly.Replies: @Autochthon, @Auntie Analogue, @PiltdownMan
Thanks, Buffalo Joe. Youngstown-Warren, Ohio here.
” . . . [S]teel workers wanted to tell their fellow workers that their sons were a doctor, an accountant or a lawyer, not a mill hand.” Yep, that was a commonplace here also. No matter that mill workers after the big strike in 1958, or thereabouts, got paid well, and later, very well. The work was friggin’ brutal. Less well known, I think, is that some of those “elevated” white collar jobs didn’t pay that well, nor was the scope of professional authority that great. They took orders, many of them, and that’s even more true today.
The Mexicans here were very small in number according to a local historical society lecturer. They came in the 1920s. The Puerto Ricans were more numerous and were actively recruited in the 1950s by local steelmakers. The first generation seemed to me conservative in manner and dress, and very Catholic. One family was our neighbor. The second generation, some of them, seemed to have overdosed on West Side Story. Flashy clothes, lots of attitude, polished-up cars with lotsa chrome, and bunches of hot Irish Catholic schoolgirls throwing themselves at them. Some of those Puerto Ricans and their descendants have done okay with government jobs.
One data point: an acquaintance up here in Seattle has consulted at Microsoft off and on for over 20 years. He claims he has never seen an h1b there who was anything but a grunt programmer. Side benefit: some neighborhoods turning into little Mumbai !
–written by a self-hating, anti-American cuck.
I can’t fathom why I should be interested in improving the lives of those who are neither my family, my friends, nor my fellow Americans.
Here in Silicon Valley there are new 'universities' (a building with a parking lot) filled with students from Andhra. How these schools received permits to issue I-20 forms (required for students to seek student visas) I shall never understand.Replies: @E. Rekshun
I’m told that graduate computer science classes at 2nd and 3rd tier US universities are now 95% foreign-born Indians and Chinese.
Heck, twenty years ago, in my graduate-level Computer Science classes in a top-tier US university 98% of the class was foreign-born Indian and Chinese students and, oddly, a few Turkish students but I think that’s because a couple of the professors were Turkish and must have built a pipeline from Turkey into the Computer Science Department. I remember one class with one other White male American-born student; otherwise it was only me. One young Indian female once asked me, in all seriousness, what country I was from, thinking I was Canadian or western European. LOL!
Oh, and for all intents and purposes, the Chinese spoke zero English. I and one impressive & smart Caribbean female strongly suspected that the Chinese students received some kind of “special, hush-hush” tutoring from the school to get through the CS program.
" . . . [S]teel workers wanted to tell their fellow workers that their sons were a doctor, an accountant or a lawyer, not a mill hand." Yep, that was a commonplace here also. No matter that mill workers after the big strike in 1958, or thereabouts, got paid well, and later, very well. The work was friggin' brutal. Less well known, I think, is that some of those "elevated" white collar jobs didn't pay that well, nor was the scope of professional authority that great. They took orders, many of them, and that's even more true today.
The Mexicans here were very small in number according to a local historical society lecturer. They came in the 1920s. The Puerto Ricans were more numerous and were actively recruited in the 1950s by local steelmakers. The first generation seemed to me conservative in manner and dress, and very Catholic. One family was our neighbor. The second generation, some of them, seemed to have overdosed on West Side Story. Flashy clothes, lots of attitude, polished-up cars with lotsa chrome, and bunches of hot Irish Catholic schoolgirls throwing themselves at them. Some of those Puerto Ricans and their descendants have done okay with government jobs.Replies: @Buffalo Joe
Jack OH , Buffalo was headquarters for two refractory companies that specialized in rebuilding blast furnace stateside and abroad. So, to me, most mill towns looked alike. The thing that most millennials will ever see is that people had homes and raised their families a chain link fence away from the steel mills. Everything, including the hanging laundry, had a ore dust rose tint. They never thought the mill jobs would disappear.
“Birth is a lottery, by which some infants are randomly gifted the guarantees and opportunities of a rich country while other infants are randomly subjugated to poverty and suffering. Fully eliminating this inequity would require the dissolution of the family, which is going too far.”
Almost fixed, but not quite. Try this:
“Birth is a lottery, by which some infants are randomly gifted the guarantees and opportunities of a good family while other infants are subjugated to poverty and suffering. Fully eliminating this inequity would require the dissolution of the family…”
Ethical universalism/impartialism = totalitarianism.
Poppycock! It’s doubtful that many of the Indians believe Silicon Valley exists because of them… One more thing, no matter how much one questions about the efficacy of their work, it was India that was able to provide the talent in those sheer numbers when America needed it… Where were the 1st cousins (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa), the 2nd cousins (Germans, Dutch or Scandinavians), third cousins (Slavs, Southern Slavs) or the fourth cousins (rest of the whites)? Talk is cheap!
UBI only works if you get rid of 90%+ of the government employees that work in government associated with Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare (77% of government spending)–and that’s not likely, as government itself is a jobs program with its own built-in partisan constituency (called Democrat voters). Good luck with that.
The libertarian idea of UBI is just another take on Utopia, i.e. “hey, if we do this, all our problems are solved.”
I would prefer to see some kind of public works/space exploration program instead.
just how little curiosity they have for the city. The most diverse and interesting city in the world with free museums and art galleries and parks and walks and pubs and they just aren’t interested.
Hey, that also describes one particular under-performing, dysfunctional American group.
I must respectfully disagree. Even though US industries are currently addicted to cheap labor, and certainly an abrupt shutoff would likely result in significant short-term disruptions, phasing out the H1B program would simply allow American citizens (native born and recent immigrants alike) to pick up the slack – at a higher price point, of course, but if cheap labor is more important to you than shared prosperity, well, perhaps you would be happier living in Somalia.
Always we are told that without slave labor/indentured labor/child labor/foreign labor the factories will stop the crops will rot in the fields etc.etc. And always we are lied to. The slaves are freed, unions are legalized, child labor outlawed, the rate of immigration reduced… and all that ever happens is that wages for the many head up and profits for the few head down.
Our own native born Chinese, Korean, Hindu engineers/techies get screwed over by the flooding in of foreign born H1-Bs. How come they are not raising their voices and giving cover to the native born white techie guys?Replies: @Opinionator
Because for some their fear and loathing of Whites outweighs that benefit. However, I don’t get the sense that such hatred is widespread among people of Chinese and Korean origin
That admission is all I really want out of most progressives. No nation on earth has successfully combined what we're trying to combine right now: racial diversity, classically liberal freedom, and a generous welfare state. Multiple states have combined two of the three, but never all three.
We need to be allowed to express skepticism (even "fear") about this radical experiment without being called racist. However, that skepticism should be expressed intelligently, which many on the alt-right seem incapable of doing.Replies: @Opinionator
Who in their right mind would risk the lives and wellbeing of their children and grandchildren for a “radical social experiment”?
That’s a pretty good slur on Steve King by Costa’s misrepresentation of what King said: “alluded, in a sense.”
Just get over it and call him a Nazi…
So what?Replies: @DWB
I think the idea of “tech” has gotten warped over the past decade or so; perhaps, even a bit more.
We returned not long ago to the Bay Area after living in France for a few years. Having spent two decades here – a time when “tech” meant Intel or AMD – the return was shocking. There was, of course, the “dot com” period where various web companies and services made some people fabulously wealthy.
But today, when people here tal about “tech,” almost universally what they really mean is some 3 man company producing an application for the iPhone.
A couple of years ago, there was a “company” called “Yo” whose product was a useless ‘app’ that sent just the two byte character set “YO” across from one phone to another. At the time, allegedly Netscape founder Marc Andreesen invested a million dollars in this idea, talking about what a huge breakthrough it was.
http://sjrefugee.blogspot.com/2014/09/whats-big-idea.html
I remember also the famous quip of Peter Thiel:
Some of the new things coming out of “Silicon Valley” (which today is increasingly one-room rented office space in former warehouses in San Francisco) truly does bring value.
But the idea that this crap is “tech” and requires hired foreign “geniuses” is laughable.
It’s been very difficult for any of the people from those countries to access America other than as tourists for a very very long time. I hold a NZ and UK passport.
We're more interesting because we all agree with the politically correct dogma.We’ve become a more tolerant culture.
We're more tolerant because we assault, shout down, and deprive of his livelihood anyone who is intolerant, i.e., who challenges the politically correct dogma.Replies: @Forbes
The assumption that opportunity is plummeting and everyone is getting screwed, when the fact is a lot of good things happening in this country.
A noticeable absence of evidence in that shovel-full…
Hey, that also describes one particular under-performing, dysfunctional American group.Replies: @cowboy shaw
I know all sorts of strange theories about London abound on places like this, and some of it is true. But if you hang around say blackfriars station in The City, the place is as white as it was in 1960, but with cyclists rather than men in bowler hats. Of course, the vibrancy is only ever a few miles away.
The reason to put “Patriotic” and “GOP” in a descriptive phrase is to force the issue, just like Steve King has done with his “somebody else’s babies” comment. I agree that there hasn’t been a patriotic president since Ike. Ike removed millions of illegal aliens; Reagan imported and gave amnesty to millions of illegal alien invaders.
President Trump is a wrecking ball. We will see what he does when a disaster comes along that calls for decisive action. I think President Trump will prove to be a patriot.
Have you extensive experience in Santa Clara?
That would be the EB-2; this is the one that artists commonly use (e.g., their lawyers probably arranged for Jon Anderson and Neil Peart to come to California on EB-2s; though I think Anderson has since become a citizen…). It is available for scientists and engineers, too.
True superstars are even able to obtain a waiver based upon the national interest – the idea that their mere presence will benefit the U.S.A. – without even having employment lined up. Stephen Hawking or Tim Berners-Lee might qualify for one; it is a high hurdle.
The vast majority of H1-Bs are not anything close to superstars, and even those who are overwhelmingly come from Europe and, to a significantly lesser extent, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China.
In my experience, superstar engineers from India, South America, and Southeastern Asia are few and far between.
A final point to bear in mind is most of the abusers of this system: Apple, Google, Microsoft, IBM, Qualcomm, Intel, NVIDIA, etc. have (or could easily establish) facilities in India or any other nation and have employees (superstars or not) from that location work in that location. The H1-B business is preferred because it is a double-whammy: you can lay off costly American workers, and not only are the helots you replace them with cheaper, they are also docile and subservient (accepting inhumanly long hours, abusive conditions, etc.) because they dare not risk loss of their sponsorship to live in a civilised nation.
> frustrated youngsters agitate for loan relief.
I take it you think this is a bad thing?
I won't hijack Steve's generosity; you can type "law school scam" into your favourite search engine and be amazed by days' worth of reading material about the whole sordid business. Law is a kind of leading indicator, a canary in the coal mine, for what is in store as both globalisation and mechanization (i.e., automation) accelerate; recent advances in artificial intelligence will really do a number on law, medicine, and other professions soon. Intelligent systems have now been created which can teach themselves (unlike earlier systems which required experts to train them). Geoffrey Hinton and his mob, most notably protégé George Dahl, who integrated parallel GPUs to provide the needed computing power, have really made quantum breakthroughs in this regard.
Naturally, Hinton despises Donald Trump.
Obama, the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Meryl Streep, David Brooks: these are all obviously nice people. They never say anything bad or angry or rude. Why can't the whole world be ruled by people like them, who aren't perfect, but who are obviously kind, well-intentioned, and mild-mannered? Why elect such ugly people, who say unpleasant things?Replies: @Desiderius, @DB Cooper
Malaysia appears to have a hand in the Yemen conflict as well, fighting for Saudi Arabia… although they’re trying to keep it hush-hush.
Yes, in addition to the EB-2 visa, there is the visa (that I qualified for after graduate school) for those who are deemed vital to the “national interest.” For example, for individuals with expertise in areas of critical technology (space, military, cyber security etc).
This comment pisses me off. Being an American was not a free gift to me, it was an earned reward to my parents, grandparents and so on. They made America a place worth having kids in, and then they had kids. People in India or wherever did not contribute to America, so they aren’t entitled to have American kids. This is why we as Americans owe it to our ancestors to keep America the kind of country they would at least vaguely recognize if they were to time warp from a log cabin to Times Square in 2017.
Link to the show transcpits?
The worst is the gas. About 2 hours after lunch, there’d be a terrible smell wafting over the entire cubicle farm, and by the end of the day, the smell was unbearable. There was no attempt to hold it in, and some of them had no shame in doing it out loud since it was hard to tell where it came from in the cubicles.
Obama, the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Meryl Streep, David Brooks: these are all obviously nice people. They never say anything bad or angry or rude. Why can't the whole world be ruled by people like them, who aren't perfect, but who are obviously kind, well-intentioned, and mild-mannered? Why elect such ugly people, who say unpleasant things?Replies: @Desiderius, @DB Cooper
The Dalai Lama is actually not so nice. WikiLeaks has revealed that the Dalai Lama has been sending orphans under his care to go to war for India against Pakistan. Normal people won’t do this kind of things, not to mention nice people.
No, you argue against the artificial decreasing of wages.
Economists would say that the displaced American worker will move up into a higher paying job. Therefore it's good for the American economy having an Indian making 50k, displaced worker making 85k in his higher paying position than paying 70k to a single worker.
In reality we end up with entry engineering grads doing technician workReplies: @Anonymous, @map
Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Why would I need to lose my 70K a year job to get the 85K a year job? Why would I not just get the 85K a year job in the first place?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus
The Mathematical Mind, Peter Thiel and Trump (Eric Weinstein Pt. 1)
https://youtu.be/8FmSGwvTzxk?t=6m6sReplies: @res, @Cagey Beast
Thanks very much for posting this interview. He makes a critically important point about how growth was faked after 1970 using mass immigration as a key ingredient. This marries up with the arguments made by Chris Martenson and others over at Peak Prosperity. We’d all be miles ahead if this became the consensus opinion.
Not sure where this is going.Replies: @Desiderius, @stillCARealist
it’s already led us to have smaller families. The rest of the world is doing this even more, except for lower Africa. The world population will peak and then contract. What we need to do is figure out how to hang on until the population starts declining and then figure out how to deal with that.
Species extinction and endangerment is not that big of a deal, is it?
For reasons not worth going into, they wanted a London experienced person to do it, and preferably an Australian or Kiwi. Job was confirmed, then got a call the next morning saying it was off - absolutely no chance of getting me in on whatever visa they were going to use. The HR people mumbled Trump.
So it sounds like there is something going on. I'm philosophical - got caught in the dragnet trying to sort out the Indian H1-B mess. But the company was livid. They hadn't been able to fill the position for months.
Media are still going on about a muslim ban of course. No one cares about the Kiwi and Pom ban I guess.Replies: @stillCARealist
Pom? What’s that?
Seattle is rainy and provincial. It would get on your nerves quickly.
Generally, economists don’t propose that the people who lose their jobs get higher paying jobs. They argue that the job and wage losses are made up for by an increase in economic surplus or total welfare:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus
That’s a lie.
That’s a lie.
That’s a lie (non-statement; Brooks getting head is a “good thing happening”)
Lies pour from this creature’s lips.
Great idea; but I’d cap them at the level they were at when Compaq bought DEC, and then reduce the cap by 4% per year.
Personally I support a higher minimum wage and see it as a win/win issue for conservatives.
If it doesn’t lead to higher unemployment, it has all the benefits I mentioned above: less usage of welfare programs, hopefully more family formation.
If it does lead to higher unemployment, that is a vindication of free market principles.
If conservatives back it, either the politicians themselves win for making good public policy, or free market ideology wins.
A comprehensive high wage conservative platform would be to support higher minimum wage or EITC, while opposing immigration and some aspects of free trade.
His son served in the Israeli army. His future and that of his kids is secure behind the wall.
We have never needed Indian labor. Ever.
Of course they are mystified! After all, it’s not as if you’re eating a shepherd’s pie… Japanese sushi isn’t exactly English, now is it?
What levels do they test?Replies: @Lot
The higher the better. Gates was easily admitted to Harvard and was obessed with hiring the smartest people he could find. I can barely imagine how hard it was for him to write a BASIC compiler from scratch when he was about 21. Probably under 1% of professional programmers could do this.
You, sir, are a Chinese troll… What ever you are selling, take it elsewhere for we are all stocked up here!
I take it you think this is a bad thing?Replies: @Autochthon
I don’t get the impression he thinks it is; he seems to be on the side of the scammed alumni. The law school scam (of which what he describes is only the tiniest tip of the iceberg) is a huge catastrophe that, like a great war, ended the lines of countless exceptional people by channeling many thousands of our brightest young men and women into a dead-end racket with nondischargable and crippling loans which literally prevented them from ever doing anything but living hand-to-mouth their entire lives. Still more thousands of the less bright were conned into attending the so-called Third-Tier Toilet schools (Pace, Florida Coastal, Thomas Jefferson, etc.) and even more unable to escape their plight, as many of that lot never even qualified for document-review and similar crap jobs, but instead wound up as baristas and such. Imagine yourself saddled with $250,000.00 in nondischargable debt and begging your manager for extra hours at the Starbucks each week.
I won’t hijack Steve’s generosity; you can type “law school scam” into your favourite search engine and be amazed by days’ worth of reading material about the whole sordid business. Law is a kind of leading indicator, a canary in the coal mine, for what is in store as both globalisation and mechanization (i.e., automation) accelerate; recent advances in artificial intelligence will really do a number on law, medicine, and other professions soon. Intelligent systems have now been created which can teach themselves (unlike earlier systems which required experts to train them). Geoffrey Hinton and his mob, most notably protégé George Dahl, who integrated parallel GPUs to provide the needed computing power, have really made quantum breakthroughs in this regard.
Naturally, Hinton despises Donald Trump.
Species extinction and endangerment is not that big of a deal, is it?Replies: @Autochthon
I really hope you mean this as Swiftian sarcasm.
Seattle is rainy and provincial. It would get on your nerves quickly.Replies: @Autochthon, @Auntie Analogue, @PiltdownMan
A delicious brand of pomegranate juice, of course!
The argument is framed as H-1Bs doing normal work for less, but a small number are superstars. In some cases you cannot tell in advance who is the superstar.
Something to consider is those superstars are not going to disappear because you do not give them a visa. They will work somewhere else. Maybe India, maybe somewhere else, but they will almost certainly still be superstars, just not in the US.Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @MG, @Lot, @GregMan, @Opinionator, @PiltdownMan
Not many and we don’t need to let in 50,000 sub-mediocrities with shady trade school coding diplomas from India for every superstar we lure.
In any case, America has—and always has had—many, many more native-born superstars than there are Indian superstars.
That’s why the United States is the United States, and India is just…well, India.
Seattle is rainy and provincial. It would get on your nerves quickly.Replies: @Autochthon, @Auntie Analogue, @PiltdownMan
My dear Formerly CARealist, Pom is Australian slang for a Briton, and is also expressed by the related adjective Pommy, as in “Pommy snobbery.”
Seattle is rainy and provincial. It would get on your nerves quickly.Replies: @Autochthon, @Auntie Analogue, @PiltdownMan
Pom or Pommie is simply short for Pommie Bastard in the Australian vernacular, which is also known as Strine.
“Strine”, of course, is what “Australian” sounds like, when spoken in Strine.
https://charlierose.com/videos/30216
I used to think ‘fear of the other,’ fearing people just because they are different, a notion hammered into my head by US television in my formative years, was a made up concept. Now I think that perhaps groups that evolved for a signficant period of time as minorities amongst an often hostile population may have an actual ‘fear of the other’ and are projecting their own psychology on everyone else.
—Bryan Caplan.
They may fear being looked a t as race traitors within their extended family/community. Wouldn’t be surprised if many of them secretly hated the influx.
Voice of America, we don’t need your stinking H1-B visas. American techs moving to Bangalore.
Fewer seeking H1-Bs
Blagsvedt holds a stronger opinion, saying that H1-B visas are exploitative, and that the rise of opportunity in Bangalore has limited the number of people desperate for those options.
“They haven’t raised that minimum salary in 22 years,” Blagsvedt said. “Now you tell me where you can hire a five-year programmer in Silicon Valley for $65,000 [a year]. You just can’t. And what does that guy have as recourse? If he doesn’t like the job, his visa is sponsored fully … he can’t complain, he can’t even switch jobs!”
Blagsvedt and Chaturvedi both said that in the Bangalore startup ecosystem, they had heard no talk, or worry, about the proposed changes to the U.S. visa program.
Chaturvedi did admit, however, that any threats to the H1-B program “would have been far scarier 10 years back.”
http://www.voanews.com/a/why-bangladore-does-not-need-silicon-valley/3765932.html
Search on Sean Blagsvedt, American tech in Banglore for more
Trump should introduce the concept of "high wage conservatism."
Why are high wages an important conservative goal? Because, in today's world, they are required for family formation. Women won't marry men who don't have good earnings. And they won't stay married if men don't keep the money coming in.
High wages allow for stay at home mothers and traditional gender roles. Which in turn would reduce divorce.
High wages also reduce the need for foodstamps, welfare and medicaid, which many low wage workers end up using.
If high wages are touted as a major policy goal, that flows naturally into limiting immigration, as we have studies such as this one and Borjas showing that immigration reduces wages.
High wage conservatism would also outflank the left on one of their major issues, and could turn many union members to vote republican.Replies: @Anonymous, @Ed, @Buffalo Joe, @MBlanc46, @Maj. Kong
Drying up the labor surplus is an admirable goal. Deporting all illegal aliens is a good step, along with an indefinite moratorium on legal immigration.
Should that not be enough, we need to consider surtaxing the female half of dual-earner power couples above a certain income threshold. We don’t need any more Sheryl Sandberg-types, we need universal male employment. In one stroke much of the crime problem and the gender insanity would be swept away.
The libertarian idea of UBI is just another take on Utopia, i.e. "hey, if we do this, all our problems are solved."Replies: @Maj. Kong
UBI makes sense if we live in a world where automation causes the participation rate to go sub 50%. It doesn’t make sense now, and at any time period it would have to be implemented with Singapore-style drug enforcement.
I would prefer to see some kind of public works/space exploration program instead.
Math is so...xenophobic.Replies: @Opinionator, @bomag
Most Americans look at their (maybe) country and judge it to be pretty full of people.
Some foreigners look at America (a country for the taking, it appears) and see a place that can support ten billion of their co-ethnics.
Math is not only xenophobic, it is also oikophobic.
Am white, a software engineer, and have worked with body shop types, with ones who went through grad school in the US and ones who were just very smart. I’ve not seen exaggerated self-importance(*), eating with hands or burping out loud. Not that they don’t all have to go back.
Personally I’m not afraid of competition, even if we lose! Just let them compete from India and Make India Great, as long as I don’t have to be the sucker that has to stay up all hours liasing with them.
(*) except for one woman who sounded like she thought she was a princess. And another who spoke to everyone as though she was a kindergarden teacher and everyone else were pupils. These were both unusual cases, but I don’t think I’ve heard any other group put such ‘tone’ in their voices as these Indian women.
It was a dark and stormy night and Steve Sailer is all about the ladies. Sailer noticed back in 2015 that dames who code are being attacked by greedy cheap labor hogs who use the H-1B visa to displace US lady STEM workers and keep their wages low. Sailer knows that the gals are good on borders and immigration IF the issue is framed in the right way.
White women are good fighters, but they don't mind if the men do a bit of brawling too. Sailer seems to have been channeling the famous Brenda Walker -- also known as BRENDA THE BRAVE -- when he suggested back in 2015 that it ain't such a good idea to flood the USA with foreigners who are anti-Women in their outlook.
Sailer wrote:
"Also, does bringing in a lot of H-1Bs from cultures with less advanced gender attitudes tend to create a hostile work environment for those American women coders who manage to keep their jobs? That's what I heard from a family friend."
The Patriotic GOP is going to need every damn White female vote possible. The immigration issue needs to be reframed so as to make it more palatable for White lady voters.
White lady voters know that open borders mass immigration lowers wages, displaces US workers, increases housing costs, swamps schools, overwhelms hospitals and harms the environment. White women voters know that open borders mass immigration brings Islamic terrorism to the USA and brings in foreigners who have ingrained anti-Women attitudes. White women know that foreign women are being rewarded with luxury benefits from the government.
Steve Sailer understands that women voters have had enough of the anti-sovereignty nonsense from GOP Globalizer politician weasels such as Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. American women will support the Patriotic GOP if they feel that the Patriotic GOP fights for them.
Attention Men:
Women voters want you to fight for them and if you don't know that your a stupid bonehead.Replies: @MBlanc46, @Achmed E. Newman
Most white women need, and want, to stay at home and raise kids. What is this hostile work environment bit about? Anytime you have any large amount of women in the workplace, especially some “in charge”, you have, by definition, a hostile work environment FOR EVERYONE THERE!. Don’t believe me – ask my wife.
That might be what they think when they take the time to think logically and ponder about this, but why does that matter? Women listen to their feelings over any logic you can come up with, Charles. You are under the mistaken impression that women think in the same manner as men. Don’t feel bad, many of us make this same mistake. We are led to believe this in our early years by our assumptions and lack of experience. We are bombarded our whole lives with this crap from the media. It’s incorrect, Charles.
I’ll tell you what we need to fight for, it’s the elimination of voting for women – without women voters we’d be in a lot better shape in this country. If that make me a bonehead, then I’m proud to be a bonehead (from Muskogee).
PS. I just don’t agree with you at all here, but I’ve agreed with almost all your previous tweets and all. As for Brenda Walker, there are always exceptions, and she is indeed exceptional – someone’s got to speak up for the real California. Brenda is the best.
For true capitalism to flourish, a society needs a work force that is reasonably well-paid IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE PRODUCTS THAT A CAPITALIST SOCIETY PRODUCES.
The "race to the bottom" that is presently in play will do nothing to promote true capitalism and will result in revolution with possibly deleterious results--it always does...
What is the difference between making a 10 million dollar "profit" and keeping your employees working or "offshoring" your production in order to make an 11 million dollar "profit"?? You just destroyed your "customer base" by doing so...
The "stockholder" is only one part of a functioning economy--NOT the end-all...
A functioning capitalist society is like a three-legged stool--remove any one leg and you end up with a "crash".
The false savings by the "globalization" crowd will do nothing but harm every society that promotes it.Replies: @Bleuteaux
The price of housing, food, transportation and healthcare has skyrocketed in this country the last several decades, due in part to mass immigration asked for by corporate America, and then the same people whose decisions have helped inflate the cost of everything complain that it costs too much to employ an American.
At this point, I pray for a collapse in the stock market. I really do.
Drake, Nicely stated.
Fewer seeking H1-Bs
Blagsvedt holds a stronger opinion, saying that H1-B visas are exploitative, and that the rise of opportunity in Bangalore has limited the number of people desperate for those options.
"They haven't raised that minimum salary in 22 years," Blagsvedt said. "Now you tell me where you can hire a five-year programmer in Silicon Valley for $65,000 [a year]. You just can't. And what does that guy have as recourse? If he doesn't like the job, his visa is sponsored fully … he can't complain, he can't even switch jobs!"
Blagsvedt and Chaturvedi both said that in the Bangalore startup ecosystem, they had heard no talk, or worry, about the proposed changes to the U.S. visa program.
Chaturvedi did admit, however, that any threats to the H1-B program "would have been far scarier 10 years back."
http://www.voanews.com/a/why-bangladore-does-not-need-silicon-valley/3765932.html
Search on Sean Blagsvedt, American tech in Banglore for moreReplies: @MG
Why this hostility towards America, a country that has been welcoming and generous to India and Indians? America owes NOTHING to Indians.
What would it mean, exactly, to deny demand and supply, “per se?” Even Marx didn’t deny demand and supply. The argument is that some magic force comes to overwhelm the usual operation of demand and supply. The denial is that demand and supply are relevant to analyzing this problem.
The most common denialist argument is that an increase in low skill labor supply increases demand for slightly-more-skilled labor somehow and that this effect is big enough to completely offset the first order effect. This increase is sometimes mediated, as you say, by an increase in overall demand for goods and services. This increase is sometimes mediated by complementarity between low skill and slightly-higher-skill labor.
Neither type of argument makes any sense once you try to understand it practically. More illegals means more demand for toilet paper, iPhones, and plastic doo-dads (all of which are now manufactured in China and shipped to the US on ships which employ 0 Americans per ship). Then, mumble, mumble, mumble. Then, labor demand in the US increases! Yay!
The complementarity argument is just as stupid. More illegals means more labor supply for landscapers. Which means more landscaping crews. Which means more landscaping crew foremen. And they have to speak English, so, presto, more demand for slightly-higher-skill labor. Yay!
One can do a little better than this. More illegals does, of course, create more demand for nurses, doctors, immigration lawyers, and cops. But are the guys who used to be landscapers really going to get those jobs? Seriously? And, obviously, somebody has to pay for all those nurses, doctors, immigration lawyers, and cops. Mostly, that’s going to be tax-payers. We could create more jobs for these people by just directly subsidizing the purchase of health care or health insurance or whatever w/o the immigration.
In any event, none of the arguments rise to the level of something an adult should take seriously. But there’s no point in saying that. The powers that be in the profession have declared that these are Very Serious Arguments. People compete to come up with clever-silly arguments about how immigration is good for unskilled workers.
There are actually some pluses to living in my area. I’ve talked to a few out of town folks who’ve been recruited to work here. They’re happy to be rid of long commutes, the cost of living is amazingly low, street crime is often confined to mostly Black areas, and big city aggressiveness isn’t common. But–no way around it–depopulation, deindustrialization, destruction, and demoralization are pretty damned ugly.
In countries that didn’t demand escaping, that weren’t populated cheek to jowl, I suppose.
If Indians were great, or good, or mediocre, India would be, too.
There’s a lot of good reading to be had on this (general) subject. Social Identity Theory is instructive. Kevin MacDonald’s trilogy will teach you a lot. There’s been a lot of ink spilled about the differences between ethnocentric populations with a much longer evolutionary history in densely-populated, urban regions like MENA, too.
What’s most interesting to me is how free Jews feel to cast aspersions. They are in desperate need of a counter-culture of critique.
Fatuous ass Brooks is being more of an idiot than usual when he castigates Wilders for wanting few Muslims and more Dutch. When Brooks, like Wilders, has to be protected by armed security because of Muzzie death threats, maybe he’ll see the light.
Have you ever tried to read a user manual written by a foreigner?