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Now that the Biden Administration is reviving the Obama Administration’s proposal to concoct a Middle Eastern and North African racial identity on government forms, I’ve finally found an article that asks what strikes me as the central question: Are Jews MENAs?
In my experience over my lifetime, race is partly socially constructed by the Office of Management and Budget guidelines for other federal agencies on what race and ethnicity categories to list on their paperwork. For instance, people are always asking me why in one of my statistical analyses I didn’t divide up the population along whatever is their favorite axe to grind. My usual response is that I just follow the federal guidelines because that’s how the data comes chopped up.
And, in my experience, however, the single most influential group is one the feds haven’t broken out since Jewish groups shot down a proposal to ask Jews to self-identify in the 1950s. Jewish groups felt that wasn’t good for the Jews, so it didn’t become policy.
There are a few questions revolving around the MENA proposal that I haven’t seen anybody else ask: how many Jews would stop declaring themselves on the Census as white and pick MENA instead? And what are the political, social, and cultural implications of that?
I have no idea what the answers to those questions are, but almost nobody else seems interested in asking them, which is stupid.
From Reason:
The Proposed New MENA “Racial” Classification and the Jews
Arab and Iranian activist groups are trying to get the Biden administration to impose a new MENA classification; it would have some surprising effects on American Jews.
DAVID BERNSTEIN | 7.27.2022 7:54 AM
I reviewed last year Professor Bernstein’s book on affirmative action: Classified.
[Cross-posted from my blog at The Times of Israel]
The Biden administration is considering adding a new “Middle Eastern and North African” racial classification to the US Census. If this classification gets written into law, it will inevitably spread to college applications, civil rights forms, and other documents that ask Americans to indicate their race.
What would this mean for the American Jewish community? Will Israeli Americans be part of the MENA classification? Mizrahi Jews? Ashkenazi Jews who feel closer ties to their Middle Eastern heritage than to their more recent European places of origin?
… The [1980s] lobbying efforts were unsuccessful, in part because of an unresolved debate over whether Israeli Americans would be included in the MENA classification.
In the meantime, more Muslims from Arab countries began immigrating to the US. A new generation of Muslim Arab American progressive political activists self-identified as “people of color.” The media generally accepted this designation. For example, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and activist Linda Sarsour, both Muslims of Palestinian Arab descent, have been widely described, and describe themselves, as “women of color.”
In Sarsour’s case she attributes her “person of color status” despite her pale complexion to the fact that she wears a hijab, which causes others to see her an outsider to mainstream America. This raises the question of why Haredi Jews do not get “people of color” status based on their more dramatically non-mainstream religious garb. …
Census Bureau researchers reported that Israeli American and Jewish organizations told them that American Jews did not want to be included in the MENA category because they identify their ethnicity as Jewish, not Middle Eastern. The latter response, however, is beside the point, because there is no “Jewish” category on census and other forms; most Jews would have the choice between identifying themselves as white or as MENA. Many Mizrahi Jews (Jews of recent Middle Eastern and North African descent) would check the MENA box, as would many Israeli immigrants.
At least some Ashkenazim consider themselves to be descendants of a group indigenous to the Middle East. And if the MENA classification developed into an affirmative action category, Jews would have an incentive to identify themselves as MENA. …
Arab American groups and their Iranian American allies are trying again in the Biden administration. American Jews should oppose this change, for several reasons. First, the groups pushing this change are, to say the least, not friends of the American Jewish community. They want a MENA classification primarily so that Americans of Middle Eastern Muslim descent can get official victim status, including eligibility for affirmative action. They also hope for a certain immunity from criticism. Already, when people criticize the likes of Sarsour and Tlaib for antisemitic and anti-Israel statements, the latter’s defenders question how critics indulge in “white privilege” and dare attack “women of color.”
Relatedly, as noted above many American Jews will adopt the MENA classification, leading to communal tensions with other MENA Americans as Jews take a share of whatever gains the others believe are “supposed” to go to them. …
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It’s funny to me how the alt-right and the left converge when it comes to issues of identity.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people ‘feel’ or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There’s no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren’t white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don’t get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don’t get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for “white”.
I'd quibble a bit; northern Europeans are mostly descendants of Indo-European/Aryan pastoralists, not the Anatolian-origin Early European Farmers they replaced. Of course so are many Iranians, Kurds etc. There definitely is not some big genetic difference between Europe & MENA the way there is with sub-Saharan Africa, or east Asia to a lesser extent. If humans were classified the way non human animals are, Europeans & MENA would both be part of the same sub-species.
The term "white" as applied to race has pretty much whatever definition its user wants it to have in order for them to make their argument. In reality, the term is wildly inaccurate and manipulative regardless of how it's used.Replies: @Anonymous
So for example the average Ashkenazi Jew is not much removed from Southern Europeans on regional/global PCA. They look roughly similar too. But not many Americans cast doubt on the whiteness of Southern Europeans; whereas with Ashkenazi Jews the question hangs over them to some extent; it’s open for debate. The cause of confusion and debate is the religious factor which separates Jews from average Euro-Americans.
With regards to Middle Easterners; the problem is compounded by the vast religious and cultural gap which separates them from average white Americans. My personal experience as a Muslim Middle Easterner some years ago in the US, is that Americans - even the non-white ones - use this heuristic when determining who is white: “Osama cannot be white; Nicholas, maybe”.
I remember talking to an African-American uber driver one time; and after conversing for a while I mentioned that I was from Egypt; to which he promptly exclaimed “wuuut, but I thought you was white!” The implicit point being that, though on the exterior he initially thought I looked white; my Muslim background meant that he no longer saw me as white. I’ve had other such experiences of a dramatic change in perception upon finding out I was a Muslim (usually through my Islamic name).
So you can bring up Fst scores, admixture plots, population movement etc. all you want to show that Middle Easterners and Europeans are the same racially; but the average American doesn’t care about that stuff. They don’t code Osama as white no matter the genotype or phenotype. It’s instinctive.
With regards to Middle Eastern phenotypes; it’s important to keep in mind that they vary a bit. Not all Middle Easterners look visually white (far from it); there is a wide divergence within the same ethno-religous groups and even nuclear family. In the Middle East, everywhere from Egypt to Iran; there is what I call the “Phenotypic Duality”; some will look (off-)white, others fairly brown. In some countries like Turkey and Lebanon the whiter ones constitute the majority; in other countries like Egypt and Iraq the browner ones prevail. The proportions differ by region; but the absolute number on the minority side is always substantial enough to cause confusion on whether Middle Easterners are “brown” or “white” visually.
For example, in Iran there are people like Leila Hatami who look white and are tough to distinguish from average Southern Europeans.
https://i.ibb.co/qrjndYq/360026-E1-281-C-44-FF-8371-3932-FD05-CBD1.webp
But then there are others like Asghar Farhadi who are quite brown and look more like Pakistanis; no-one would call them white.
https://i.ibb.co/XS24ffN/23-E17797-26-B7-4632-B1-A9-7-E654-F911086.jpg
The Hatamis and Farhadis each number in the millions; so you can find examples of each in abundance; and this is what causes confusion. Are Iranians white or non-white? Visually - both. But in the American coding framework; almost all are Muslims, therefore non-white - no matter the phenotype or genotype.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.Replies: @Simon in London, @Corvinus, @Bill P, @neutral
The sculptor and archaeologist Oscar Nilsson recreates prehistoric faces from remains. He says that both men and women of that (pre-farming) era had more masculine features ( jawline and suck) yet the ones from Europe look distinctly European.
https://www.odnilsson.com/gallery/reconstructions/
100 years ago Irish was considered a race and so was Italian, because that is exactly how ethnicity was referred to and recorded on census forms by the census takers. Heck, even Mexican was considered a race. Because back then, race meant ethnicity. The form asks directly for race or color. If you didn't have an ethnicity that you wanted to put down, you could just put your color, that is literal skin color. Well, the census taker would put it down.
As for what people thought then, it was just a case of discrimination against other groups. There is no one whiter than an Irishman based on just looking at him. And culturally no one is more classically white European than the Italians whose culture was endlessly copied by all of Europe. Sure, Italians aren't English. But they sure as hell are white.
This whole crap about, well back then they said Irish weren't white is just media/ lib lies. Yeah, an Englishman would rather hire an Englishman, and a German, a German, rather than an Italian or an Irishman, but it is just bull that people didn't consider the Irish and Italians to be white. And we shouldn't be about credulously repeating their BS as though it were fact. The so called libs just want to generate an emotional response, such that we all go about saying everyone is the same and you should give no preference to your own. Meanwhile they certainly will be giving preference to their own. How else do you think academia got to be filled almost entirely with WHITE shit libs? They only hire their own. Is that because they think conservatives aren't white? In fact as we go along, we find that even some of people of color in academia and activism are actually white shitlibs!!
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
I visited Bodrum in southwestern coastal Turkey in 2009, which used to be Halicarnassus. It’s most famous hometown boy was the great historian Herodotus (“300”), followed by King Mausolus and Queen Artemisia. A couple of blocks from the hotel was a huge hole in the ground that was the first mausoleum, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. The locals looked like swarthy Mediterraneans.
In Peter Bergen’s and Thomas Luckmann’s seminal work, The Social Construction of Reality, they contend ideology in society shapes the way we view the social world, defining roles, norms, and expectations. Ideology is central to the social constructionist argument, defining right and wrong, and what constitutes a violation of moral “reality”; that is, the norms and social facts everyone “knows” to be true—even if it is not based on “objective truth”.
The end result? It becomes difficult in our competing, divisive world to assess, without bias getting into the way, the scientific validity of claims made about the extent of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, anti-whitism, etc. lest we dare to honestly and personally question the sacred values of the ideology we tout.
That is where personal reflection comes into focus. It must be challenging, right?Replies: @anon, @MEH 0910
https://twitter.com/datepsych/status/1616214859649007618?s=20&t=OPS2cMOms82sEwmqhF9NbAReplies: @Twinkie, @Alice in Wonderland
One interesting effect of Jews as POC would be to roughly halve the number of ‘whites’ at Ivy League Universities from around 40% to around 20%. A great triumph for Diversity!
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
I’ve noticed that my average Turkish (usually western Turkey), Lebanese, or pre-war Syrian student is slightly paler than my average Italian or Greek student.
I’d quibble a bit; northern Europeans are mostly descendants of Indo-European/Aryan pastoralists, not the Anatolian-origin Early European Farmers they replaced. Of course so are many Iranians, Kurds etc. There definitely is not some big genetic difference between Europe & MENA the way there is with sub-Saharan Africa, or east Asia to a lesser extent. If humans were classified the way non human animals are, Europeans & MENA would both be part of the same sub-species.
This whittling away at the periphery of whitedom reminds me of the way US telephone area codes get divided and redivided until a formerly large area code now covers just the big city. For example look at the progression of 415 in California. So I predict that eventually, the only official whites will be northwest Europeans (with the Irish placed in another category so as to perpetuate the myth that the Irish were once considered nonwhite).
As we know, Jews are “White” when convenient, & “Jews” when convenient.
You’ll never hear of the “6 million Whites” who allegedly died in the alleged “Holocaust.”
Nor will you ever hear of “Jew privilege” on “White Wall Street,” in “White Hollywood,” “White media,” “White Justice system,” White etc.”
This arrangement is “good for the Jews.” They’ll almost surely prefer to keep it that way.
How about Armenians? Are they MENA?
Serious question: What are the borders of the Middle East? Does it include the European part of Turkey? Or everything up to the Caucasus mountain? Afghanistan?
I’m not getting into the racial classifications, except to note as above that Turks and Greeks look pretty similar. But, large parts of what’s now Turkey were Greek for a long time. The major divide is religion–it’s part of the border between Islam and Christendom. But before that the whole thing was part of the Roman Empire, to the point where when Mehmed II took Constantinople he called himself ‘Kayser i-Rum’–Roman Caesar.
Would it be good for the Jews (the original question)? I’m guessing not (as many here are no doubt hoping).
Once you start separating out MENA from European the fact that you look pale won’t qualify you anymore. (The irony is that in addition to the Southern European and Western European the standard ‘Ashkenazi’ genotype is admixed with coming from Europe, you’ve got lots of additional gentile admixture in the actual history of the USA, so your average American Jew looks pretty white to a Martian.) Lots of social justice Jews will jump at the chance to call themselves ‘nonwhites’ and be as oppressed as they claim, playing right into the hands of the dissident right, because of course it’s now going to be obvious how little of Harvard is ‘white’ these days, plus, you know, the tech companies, the legacy media, the banks, and anyone else I’ve forgotten. (The BDSM community? Well, they’re not that powerful unless you believe QAnon.)
Even genuinely philojaphetic Jewish people like Bernstein (come on, who writes nasty books about affirmative action?) are probably going to claim they’re nonwhite because anti-anti-racist books are more effective coming from ‘nonwhite’ people these days, especially on middle and upper classes. (Heck, imagine if Diamond and Silk could actually write.) A lot of the neocons like Max Boot and Jonah Goldberg have already left the building. The last hangers-on like Mark Levin and Dennis Prager will probably keep going–you can argue against antiwhitism without being white, and again, it’s more effective these days.
What effect this will actually have in Middle America I can’t guess. You might get the countersemitic wave you’re looking for, though I kind of doubt it–most people have other concerns. Moderate and apolitical people are more worried about being shot by a black guy than preached lefty crap by a Jewish they-dy, er, lady. (Even with cases like DeSantis it’s more effective to complain about the actual crap being pushed than the ethnicity of the people pushing it.) But the dissident right, particularly its countersemitic portion, would probably be strengthened if this came to pass. At the very least it will make the endless claims of ‘white supremacy’ much less credible.
Will it happen? I don’t know. The Charles Schumer types aren’t as powerful as they used to be, and they control the media but that’s not as powerful as it used to be with alt-media around. But, don’t count ’em out. The Zuckerbergs, Pages, and Brins of the tech world don’t actually like legacy media–the whole Scott Alexander-NYT thing reflected a bigger fight between the Silicon Valley and New York power centers–but in this case their interests actually are aligned.
But, I didn’t think Trump could win, so don’t listen to me too hard.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you’re hoping for, but that’s not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)
(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It’s going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)
(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)
Of course, this has no bearing on real Jews: https://e3.365dm.com/23/01/2048x1152/skynews-kanye-west-ye_6035285.jpg
My guess is that if this category is created, the Jewish response to it will be downplayed in the media, or there'll be a focus on Mizrahi Israeli-Americans who can more credibly claim it.
And it will be interesting to see how many pretend to care about the Noble Palestinians when it's just people with weird headgear fighting over the desert wastes.
https://www.livescience.com/63396-ancient-israel-immigration-turkey-iran.htmlAll of the pigmentatiin traits and facial features associated with modern Europeans originated in Asia, from West Asia all the way out to Siberia.
Imagine a GRC for different racial groups, European-American Whites, one for Blacks, one for Mena , for Hispanics and another for Asians.Replies: @Twinkie
I'm so old that i can remember when it took five cards to make a royal flush.
Evidently, this is a goldmine for race grifters.
If this
is an American Indian, why wouldn’t this guy
be a Middle Easterner?
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
Ashkenazi Jews are white because they’re genetically European not from the Middle East.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
Europeans and Middle Easterners are a part of the West Eurasian category. People in real life don’t think in scientific terms – no one is going to consider Gulf Arabs white.
The Early Farmers from Anatolia are genetically closer to modern Southern Europeans than to modern Anatolian Turks let alone Arabs.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
In my opinion, this is an opportunity to separate wheat Jews from chaff Jews.
Of course, this has no bearing on real Jews:
Jews will never go for it. Too much of their game depends on ambiguity.
They like to lecture “fellow whites” in one scenario, as if they’re one of us and have a right to talk to us like that. But at other times they play the victim and present as a separate group.
Would it be good for whites if Jews were legally designated as a separate category?
Big Yes.
On the other hand, Jews get a lot of milage out of being Jewish when it comes to special pleading and exercising a heckler's veto to break up expressions of social/community unity - i.e., you can't have an anodyne Protestant prayer in a public school because it will cause the faces of the two Jewish children in the school to melt off or something. In that sense it is a very negatively defined identity - those who stand in opposition to the normalization of Christianity in a nation that is 85%+ nominally Christian. They're the "not white American Christian" people who despite comprising 2% of your population get to declare the outlines of your law, culture and society so that it fits them comfortably.Replies: @New Dealer
Ashkenazi Jews are still considered White in both the UK as well as Canada. In Canada, the racial categories are:
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/ref/98-500/006/98-500-x2021006-eng.cfm
Which is why Jews won’t allow this. When have Jews ever preferred to be pointed out, especially when their race is so over represented.
Ashkenazi Jews (95% of American Jews but less than 50% of Israeli Jews) had little connection with the Middle East, culturally or historically. And certainly the Arabs who pushed for the creation of the MENA category would hate to share it with the viscerally anti-Arab US Jews.
By the way, the flight from white phenom would eventually mean that only Nordics and Germanics would be considered as properly white, which was the position originally held by “racial researchers” in the early 20th century.
In any case, the obsession with who is white and who is non white looks very ridiculous from outside the US.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
lol, come on.
My guess is that if this category is created, the Jewish response to it will be downplayed in the media, or there’ll be a focus on Mizrahi Israeli-Americans who can more credibly claim it.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
To paraphrase David Cole, Jews are going to be told, “You a honky, hymie”.
And it will be interesting to see how many pretend to care about the Noble Palestinians when it’s just people with weird headgear fighting over the desert wastes.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
“There’s no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren’t white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don’t get to make this call.”
So the term “white” is what constitutes scientific literacy? 100 years ago Irish and Italians weren’t considered white. So I think you need to do a better job of actually using the correct terms instead of what appears to be lumping in large groups of people who possess very clear ethnic and cultural distinctions. Scandinavians and Arabs are the same! Why, just look at them!
The term “white” as applied to race has pretty much whatever definition its user wants it to have in order for them to make their argument. In reality, the term is wildly inaccurate and manipulative regardless of how it’s used.
Good for the Jews? Oh man, this will be GREAT! Pass the hummus! I can’t believe they waited until I’m 68 to do this, but now a whole new world of possibilities beckons to me! It’s a game-changer! I’m dancing on the rooftop!
Naturally, Steve doesn’t ask if it’s good for non-Jewish whites. Probably never even crossed his mind. Tells you a lot about his thinking.
Steve motto to whites is and always has been lay back and think of civic nationalism.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
This is an utter falsehood, never in the past were they considered white, but if you still don’t believe me just look at them, if that is considered white then the term has no meaning.
Not sure what “good for the Jews” might mean. Good for Jewish billionaires who make policy? Because middle class Jews are just as screwed as anyone else, even if they don’t realize it.
No amount of critical theory will convince most African Americans that Jews are fellow people of color. They are even weak on the concept that Chinese aren’t White.
Any serious attempt to convince them otherwise will only anger them.
Once Golda Meir was asked if Israel was a Middle Eastern country and she replied no Israel is a European country. That was good politics at the time.
Now maybe not so much-
African Americans appreciate when we don’t wave off their pain by pointing to all the progress America has made in racial relation in the past fifty years. And, we need to speak honestly with our Black brothers and sisters about the damage that is done to the Jewish people globally when we are simplistically framed us as “white and privileged.”
https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/are-jews-white-and-why-it-matters-632671
Jews got the divided nation they wanted. Are they going to do as well when nobody trusts them and every group is ruthless, rootless, and tribal? I doubt it. After seeing what Jews have done to this nation, why would they be trusted? Why wouldn’t Jews have targets on their backs?
Bad news for Arabs and the other misfits and rejects in the MENA group if it were to include Jews. We would of course dominate the quotas on all the good jobs and college placements for the MENA group shares. Arabs would be stuck with scraps as they have lower IQs and impulse control.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
But there is a doubt. The term “white” is not used in a solely genetic context. Genetics is a key part of it; but phenotype, culture, religion, identity all play a key role in determining who is white in the American mind. I would describe the term “white” as more a meta-ethnic rather than racial label.
So for example the average Ashkenazi Jew is not much removed from Southern Europeans on regional/global PCA. They look roughly similar too. But not many Americans cast doubt on the whiteness of Southern Europeans; whereas with Ashkenazi Jews the question hangs over them to some extent; it’s open for debate. The cause of confusion and debate is the religious factor which separates Jews from average Euro-Americans.
With regards to Middle Easterners; the problem is compounded by the vast religious and cultural gap which separates them from average white Americans. My personal experience as a Muslim Middle Easterner some years ago in the US, is that Americans – even the non-white ones – use this heuristic when determining who is white: “Osama cannot be white; Nicholas, maybe”.
I remember talking to an African-American uber driver one time; and after conversing for a while I mentioned that I was from Egypt; to which he promptly exclaimed “wuuut, but I thought you was white!” The implicit point being that, though on the exterior he initially thought I looked white; my Muslim background meant that he no longer saw me as white. I’ve had other such experiences of a dramatic change in perception upon finding out I was a Muslim (usually through my Islamic name).
So you can bring up Fst scores, admixture plots, population movement etc. all you want to show that Middle Easterners and Europeans are the same racially; but the average American doesn’t care about that stuff. They don’t code Osama as white no matter the genotype or phenotype. It’s instinctive.
With regards to Middle Eastern phenotypes; it’s important to keep in mind that they vary a bit. Not all Middle Easterners look visually white (far from it); there is a wide divergence within the same ethno-religous groups and even nuclear family. In the Middle East, everywhere from Egypt to Iran; there is what I call the “Phenotypic Duality”; some will look (off-)white, others fairly brown. In some countries like Turkey and Lebanon the whiter ones constitute the majority; in other countries like Egypt and Iraq the browner ones prevail. The proportions differ by region; but the absolute number on the minority side is always substantial enough to cause confusion on whether Middle Easterners are “brown” or “white” visually.
For example, in Iran there are people like Leila Hatami who look white and are tough to distinguish from average Southern Europeans.
But then there are others like Asghar Farhadi who are quite brown and look more like Pakistanis; no-one would call them white.
The Hatamis and Farhadis each number in the millions; so you can find examples of each in abundance; and this is what causes confusion. Are Iranians white or non-white? Visually – both. But in the American coding framework; almost all are Muslims, therefore non-white – no matter the phenotype or genotype.
As I said elsewhere: it is both a phenotype & culture. White phenotype includes “normative whites” like Gina Lolobrigida, Jean Gabin, Melina Mercouri, Greta Garbo, Vittorio de Sica, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Pablo Picasso, Carlos Fuentes, Igor Stravinsky, Paul Singer, Fidel Castro, Antony Blinken, Hafez al Assad, Bibi Netanyahu, Julius Evola…and “ambiguous whites” like Anastas Mikoyan, Idries Shah, Charles Aznavour, Ehud Barak,…
Western civilization is composed of three elements:
1. Greco-Roman heritage
2. Christianity, various post-Christian sects & modernized Judaism
3. scientific- rational method from the 17th C on
Jews are white- they may be inimical to "whiteness", but that doesn't change much- because they assimilated, most of them. They absorbed Western culture & are a part of it, in arts, sciences, cultural history etc.
With Islam this is different because Islam is not "Westernized". During the Golden Age, Islam did absorb many elements from the West & the East, but ...
Islamic culture, any period, is clearly Middle Eastern plus other Asian mixtures added; Christianity, after its initial Jewish period, has always been culturally-historically something entirely different. It was the European religion mixed with a Middle Eastern sensibility & stories.
Needless to say, there was never a Christian shariah (which is almost equal to Jewish halacha), because Christians have built upon Roman law. Culturally, Muslims have adopted from ancient world, except sciences, only parts of Aristotle & Plotinus.
They did not absorb, as Christians did, Greek tragedy & Roman drama, schools like Skepticism, Epicureanism, Stoicism, Cynicism, …; ancient music (melodies etc.); visual arts; literature from Homer to Virgil to Ovid; …
This is pre-Renaissance Christian art, the 10th C:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Triptych_Harbaville_Louvre_OA3247_recto.jpg/1024px-Triptych_Harbaville_Louvre_OA3247_recto.jpg
And this is Shiraz:
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/atlas_obscura/2015/01/21/mosques_of_shiraz_iran/1732536612_4edc3b94b7_b.jpg.CROP.promo-large2.jpg
Evidently- worlds apart.
But, more importantly, even Islamic secularists don't mean, in the broadest sense, Homer, Seneca, Epictetus, Phydias, ... when they say "we". Secularized Jews are, on the other hand, frequently scholars of the classical Antiquity or Renaissance,something alien to most educated Muslims.
And, modernized Jews have adopted modernized Christians' values: secularism, individualism, rationalism, belief in progress, belief in the rule of secular law, democracy, anti-dogmatism, cultural curiosity, religious tolerance....
That's why I think that Muslims, even when they're phenotypically white & educated, simply cannot "become" French or British or ..... Muslim primary emotional-historical-cultural identifications remain attached to a great living civilization which is - different,Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
Jews don’t like to be pigeonholed. So it’s bad for them.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
Jews don’t get their white features from Europeans; Jews already had them for thousands of years. Plenty of red haired Jews in the old testament, and archaeo-genetic studies have found ancient population in Israel with blue eyes and light skin with zero European admixture.
https://www.livescience.com/63396-ancient-israel-immigration-turkey-iran.html
All of the pigmentatiin traits and facial features associated with modern Europeans originated in Asia, from West Asia all the way out to Siberia.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
The point is that much of the American Jewish community has decided to be politically anti-white, siding with the interests of blacks etc. Genetically it is ridiculous, ‘Jews are not white’ is a political statement more than a genetic one ; it has to do with historical reasons-conflict with the church due to being a minority religion, being more suited to urban occupations that wound up tracking left in the end of the twentieth century, the left being more opposed to Nazi Germany, and a few more people could mention.
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.
Of my D&D group, several of us have children. Only one of the female players does though, so maybe it's more effective on women.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
I can see group representation constituency (GRC) becoming a thing in the US as the country becomes increasing fragmented/diverse. It would mean a reworking of the constitution so it’ll take a couple of generations. It could be done on state and local levels very quickly. The current structure can be critised as winner takes all. A GRC, in which teams of candidates represent a district, can be portrayed as more equitable.
Imagine a GRC for different racial groups, European-American Whites, one for Blacks, one for Mena , for Hispanics and another for Asians.
Villains? Old and/or blond white male, East Asian male, or Hapa male of some sort.
Except, of course, in indies (often portraying broken down, gritty whites) or saccharine ethnic movies (e.g. “Crazy Rich Asians”).
At least some Ashkenazim consider themselves to be descendants of a group indigenous to the Middle East.
Quite right too: about 50% “Middle East” according to the last article I read on this. Most of the rest is Southern European, with a little bit of Northern European thrown in. I’m baffled by the “at least some” – who the devil do the others consider themselves descended from? Inuit?
Of course, MENA classification would be “good for Jews”. As white “privilege” declines from simply lack of “protected class” status to positive disabilities; e.g. confiscatory taxation, Jews will get to exit from white to MENA, not only avoiding the disabilities on gentile whites but profiting from them. As for having to share the loot with Arabs and Iranians, I’m sure a solution (possibly nuclear) will be found for that one. I continue to be amazed at how many commenters here actually think that this has something to do with genes and skin tones in the eastern Med and elsewhere. It’s a matter of who gets the loot and who gets looted.
Matters are complicated by the ongoing Arab/Israeli conflict – many people fail to realise the extreme hatred a very large proportion of the world’s Muslims have for Jews – and of the massive settlement of Sephardic Jews from north Africa into Israel, together with the virtual total relocation of the entire population of Arab and Yemeni Jews into Israel.
To put it bluntly, the world’s ‘ MENA’ people want nothing to do with Jews, and would object vociferously on being lumped in with them. To MENAs you see, the Ashkenazim of Israel, the USA, etc are really just Europeans, Poles, Russians etc, ruthless colonizers who want to dispossess them of their native land while having the full spectrum power of the USA at their fingertips. This leads to the common perception amongst the millions upon millions of third and second generation darkies residing in Europe that Jews are a special category of ‘super whites’ – that is an elite and omnipotent offshoot of the white European race which is blessed with magical powers and fabulous wealth and power. From this viewpoint any Ashkenazi identification with MENA would simply be seen as another cynical ‘super white’ trick, and immediately repudiated and rejected.
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.Replies: @Simon in London, @Corvinus, @Bill P, @neutral
>>I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.<<
Of my D&D group, several of us have children. Only one of the female players does though, so maybe it's more effective on women.
The reality is race is ALL socially constructed, whether it be governmental, corporational, or educational, when it comes to crafting public policies and how we perceive their implementation.
In Peter Bergen’s and Thomas Luckmann’s seminal work, The Social Construction of Reality, they contend ideology in society shapes the way we view the social world, defining roles, norms, and expectations. Ideology is central to the social constructionist argument, defining right and wrong, and what constitutes a violation of moral “reality”; that is, the norms and social facts everyone “knows” to be true—even if it is not based on “objective truth”.
The end result? It becomes difficult in our competing, divisive world to assess, without bias getting into the way, the scientific validity of claims made about the extent of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, anti-whitism, etc. lest we dare to honestly and personally question the sacred values of the ideology we tout.
That is where personal reflection comes into focus. It must be challenging, right?
https://www.racket.news/p/move-over-jayson-blair-meet-hamilton
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619092005073592321
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029772977455105
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029780179075073
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029805957267457
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029812605243392
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029819584565249
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029826614218752
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029846025441280
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029851146682368
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029856293101568
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029862475505664
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029868007788544
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029872537649152
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029877767938048
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029885011509249
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029891017756672
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029899226021889
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029906498949122
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029913033658370
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029918503018496
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029926245703680
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029932650426369
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619030835495305216Replies: @Corvinus
My father always muses that the elites drive to create a cashless digital system will not be such a good idea. While money ‘exists’ as a thing you can always imagine obtaining it independent of any kind of structure of society and capital flows.
When it becomes only a concept, when it becomes something that is flowed to you through systems, then people start to really pay attention to those systems and why things are the way they are. People start to think about their relationship to the means of production in a conscious rather than just unconscious way.
Similarly Jews sticking their necks out too much used to be their disadvantage, which is why Jews have an always unthinking drive to downplay any collective actions or nepotism by Jews even as they extol them.
But once the moral high ground and control of ethnic politics was ceded to blacks, particularly post Floyd, many have begun to worry because they realise blacks see Jews as just rich white people whom they are in even more direct ethnic conflict.
The most prominent example was Bari Weiss resigning from a choice position at the NYT to protest ‘wokeness’. If anyone else did this for any other reason than to raise a kite for other Jews essentially saying “Hey guys, #DefundTheIDF only has to trend and get into the news cycle once for us to have to defend this whole Israel thing and we can’t do so morally, we need to take this to heel!”, they’d have been unpersoned, instead Weiss got space to make her grievances in the prestige liberal media and got no shots at her back as she left the NYT. I found it strange that Steve took her position at face value despite her being a progressive Jewish lesbian from NYC, the only thing she had at odds with the ‘woke’ was that she was a turbo Zionists, indeed, her being a turbo Zionist is about the most significant and heartfelt position she has. (You could say she was a TERF but really you don’t resign from the MSM to protest that)
Another more direct example is British comedian David Baddiel, Baddiel certainly doesn’t pass for white and I honestly thought he was Indian. Which may explain why he is so irate at Jews being considered ‘white’, though to what consequence other than removing barriers to notice and criticise Jewish collective actions and Israel is beyond me.
What it doesn’t explain is why a man whose career was long over and which was never a thing in the US, he was only famous in Britain, would get say a spot on The Late Show with Seth Meyers to shill a book of almost no broad interest or large sales potentials in the US. The only explanation being that Seth Meyers or the producers of the show (Most likely also Jewish like in almost all US talkshows) wanted to give him the spot that one usually has to compete for.
The main concern is that Jews being lumped into whites means they lose their centrality and veto on ethnic politics and with that, the very different views of gentile non-whites on Israel becomes an issue. Screaming ‘anti-semite!’ doesn’t really work on blacks like it does on whites.
When Baddiel absurdly claims that ‘Jews don’t count’ or that ‘anti-semitism’ isn’t considered ‘racism’ it makes a white person laugh but then you have stuff like what Whoppi Goldberg said and you wonder, is he right in that this is what non-whites actually believe. In truth though if that is the case it’s only through the Jews trying to make ‘anti-semitism’ different to other kinds of ethnic or racial discrimination, they sought (And succeeded) in making it morally worse than others.
Ultimately a lot of Jews feel that being officially non-white is good for the Jews right now because it allows them to better avoid being stripped of moral legitimacy.
For Zionists (But not necessarily for Jews because it doesn’t really matter to them outside of university quotas) this is a serious concern because if they lose moral veto power in ethnic politics by being to deflect any criticism of group or collective actions taken in the name of Jews or Israel by non-whites gaining too much moral high ground and able to treat them as ‘white’ then they have to actually defend what Israel does or what the US does for Israel and that’s a hard debate to win in the open.
What’s going on in Florida? A few things: DeSantis resisted the Covid lockdowns, championed legislation to keep “W.O.K.E.” indoctrination out of schools, competently handled a hurricane, and emphasized (here’s an idea) punishing criminals. There is a reason 61,728 New Yorkers and 27,081 Californians fled their be-masked states for Florida in 2021.“Here’s a column that embeds multiple videos of blacks attacking asians and attacks the msm for blaming the attacks on “white supremacy.”https://www.thefp.com/p/do-not-look-away-from-evilHer work isn’t aimed at you or iSteve readers, but towards convincing moderate Jews and educated secular whites to abandon the left and be open to voting for conservative Republicans. And she’s really good at it.Replies: @SFG
Does John Oliver seem Indian and "certainly non-white" to you?
As for what Whoopi said, it was obviously ridiculous. Leaving aside arguments about how race can objectively defined - of course the Nazis viewed the Jews as a different race. But her point wasn't to dismiss the suffering the Jews allegedly faced. It was to point out that extreme infliction of suffering isn't always the result of racism.
But if Whoopi revealed the clueless beliefs some blacks have about Jews, the extreme overreaction to her comment only proved the point that even blacks had better know their place around Jews.
Average American conservative.
My father always muses that the elites drive to create a cashless digital system will not be such a good idea. While money ‘exists’ as a thing you can always imagine obtaining it independent of any kind of structure of society and capital flows.
When it becomes only a concept, when it becomes something that is flowed to you through systems, then people start to really pay attention to those systems and why things are the way they are. People start to think about their relationship to the means of production in a conscious rather than just unconscious way.
Similarly Jews sticking their necks out too much used to be their disadvantage, which is why Jews have an always unthinking drive to downplay any collective actions or nepotism by Jews even as they extol them.
But once the moral high ground and control of ethnic politics was ceded to blacks, particularly post Ffloyd, many have begun to worry because they realise blacks see Jews as just rich white people whom they are in even more direct ethnic conflict.
The most prominent example was Bari Weiss resigning from a choice position at the NYT to protest ‘wokeness’. If anyone else did this for any other reason than to raise a kite for other Jews essentially saying “Hey guys, #DefundTheIDF only has to trend and get into the news cycle once for us to have to defend this whole Israel thing and we can’t do so morally, we need to take this to heel!”, they’d have been unpersoned, instead Weiss got space to make her grievances in the prestige liberal media and got no shots at her back as she left the NYT. I found it strange that Steve took her position at face value despite her being a progressive Jewish lesbian from NYC, the only thing she had at odds with the ‘woke’ was that she was a turbo Zionists, indeed, her being a turbo Zionist is about the most significant and heartfelt position she has. (You could say she was a TERF but really you don’t resign from the MSM to protest that)
Another more direct example is British comedian David Baddiel, Baddiel certainly doesn’t pass for white and I honestly thought he was Indian. Which may explain why he is so irate at Jews being considered ‘white’, though to what consequence other than removing barriers to notice and criticise Jewish collective actions and Israel is beyond me.
What it doesn’t explain is why a man whose career was long over and which was never a thing in the US, he was only famous in Britain, would get say a spot on The Late Show with Seth Meyers to shill a book of almost no broad interest or large sales potentials in the US. The only explanation being that Seth Meyers or the producers of the show (Most likely also Jewish like in almost all US talkshows) wanted to give him the spot that one usually has to compete for.
The main concern is that Jews being lumped into whites means they lose their centrality and veto on ethnic politics and with that, the very different views of gentile non-whites on Israel becomes an issue. Screaming ‘anti-semite!’ doesn’t really work on blacks like it does on whites.
When Baddiel absurdly claims that ‘Jews don’t count’ or that ‘anti-semitism’ isn’t considered ‘racism’ it makes a white person laugh but then you have stuff like what Whoppi Goldberg said and you wonder, is he right in that this is what non-whites actually believe. In truth though if that is the case it’s only through the Jews trying to make ‘anti-semitism’ different to other kinds of ethnic or racial discrimination, they sought (And succeeded) in making it morally worse than others.
Ultimately a lot of Jews feel that being officially non-white is good for the Jews right now because it allows them to better avoid being stripped of moral legitimacy.
For Zionists (But not necessarily for Jews because it doesn’t really matter to them outside of university quotas) this is a serious concern because if they lose moral veto power in ethnic politics by being to deflect any criticism of group or collective actions taken in the name of Jews or Israel by non-whites gaining too much moral high ground and able to treat them as ‘white’ then they have to actually defend what Israel does or what the US does for Israel and that’s a hard debate to win in the open.
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.Replies: @Simon in London, @Corvinus, @Bill P, @neutral
“The point is that much of the American Jewish community has decided to be politically anti-white”
What does that even mean, “political anti-white”? Could you be more specific? And what does “anti-white” even mean? Do you have a definition and particular examples?
Could it be probable that Jews have sided with non whites on certain issues because it is moral and just cause, rather than the emnity and hatred of whites? Could it not be probable that whites themselves who support those issues are not duped by propaganda, but rather have made their own decisions through logic and reason?
Many Jews see it as in their interests to undermine the White Christian society. That is what makes them anti-white. They see the White society as Christian.Replies: @Corvinus
This is an example of anti-white said in the nicest possible tone. The lack of self awareness and egoism is astounding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G45WthPTo24Replies: @Corvinus
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
Well, this morning I got into a little parking lot fracas with an angry wine lady in yoga pants** at Trader Joe’s. It was scary, man! I don’t know what her ethnicity or religion was, but her skin appeared to be almost as sublime as mine and my wife’s (but not quite.)
For some of us, the daily challenges of coexisting with members of our cursed, basically bad species are more than enough.
Put me in any category you want. Just call it “not your friend.” I don’t care who you are at this point. We all suck now to the point that even basic, daily activities are no longer fun.
Oh, and how many jerkoffs drove over the line this morning? Plenty. As I have had to do for all of my life, this morning I dealt with the idiots, morons and assholes with whom I must share this planet.
*Credit for this very accurate description of a certain demographic I know very well goes to one Tucker Carlson.
**Hey, maybe that’s really what they mean by “Karens.”
Good day.
I had a friend whose father was a Czech Jew. After the Sudetenland was taken by the Nazis he fled to Palestine but he returned to Czechoslovakia to save his parents (he failed they were murdered). He spent the rest of the war as a partisan trying to kill as many Nazis he could. He later moved to the US and had a family.
His daughter was in high schools in the 1970’s. Her hippy school teacher loved Roots and asked her students to write about their roots. When my friend’s father heard about it, he interpreted it as if he were in central Europe in the 1940s. He went to the teacher to yell at her about being a Nazi lover of Hitler. It took a long time for my friend to explain to the teacher why the crazy Czech was screaming at her.
The Irish are shipping in Patels at a rate that seems to indicate that the primary goal of Irish Independence was to confirm that myth.
What’s the difference? Jewish morality consists of doing what’s good for the Jews. As Steve said, “Jewish groups felt that wasn’t good for the Jews, so it didn’t become policy.”
Many Jews see it as in their interests to undermine the White Christian society. That is what makes them anti-white. They see the White society as Christian.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
Dumb post. “White” is a colloquial racial term for the indigenous people of Europe. White is a subset of caucasian. Middle Easterners and North Africans are caucasian, not White.
Although in antiquity, MENAs may very well have been Whiter than they are now.
ps jews are half-White, full caucasian. Their DNA sits roughly midway between Europe and the Middle East.
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.Replies: @Simon in London, @Corvinus, @Bill P, @neutral
Which goes to show that Jewish is not a racial classification.
Very interesting combination.
In Peter Bergen’s and Thomas Luckmann’s seminal work, The Social Construction of Reality, they contend ideology in society shapes the way we view the social world, defining roles, norms, and expectations. Ideology is central to the social constructionist argument, defining right and wrong, and what constitutes a violation of moral “reality”; that is, the norms and social facts everyone “knows” to be true—even if it is not based on “objective truth”.
The end result? It becomes difficult in our competing, divisive world to assess, without bias getting into the way, the scientific validity of claims made about the extent of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, anti-whitism, etc. lest we dare to honestly and personally question the sacred values of the ideology we tout.
That is where personal reflection comes into focus. It must be challenging, right?Replies: @anon, @MEH 0910
corevagina, here’s a social construct with some meat on the bones: you’re a whitenoise libshit drone machine.
Jews aren’t White European.
Arabs aren’t White European.
Both Jews and Arabs tend to have very recognizable faces, like Indians too.
They are maybe White-Adjacent.
It’s very easy to differentiate them from Europeans, even from, say, Spaniards or Sicilians.
I agree they should be in their own classification.
And preferably far away.
So the main Question of the Day here on iSteve is “it is good for the Jews?”
My, my.
The Blood Libel militia members who supposedly infest Unz seem to be on vacation.
So is the Census Bureau going to make Jews wear big Star of David symbols on their clothing or what?
Iranians (i.e.Persians) have to wear patches showing white BMWs? Don’t know about the Arabs. Maybe something with an airliner and skyscraper.
Is the “one drop rule” going to be government policy?
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
Modern Europeans still have Western Hunter Gatherer genes. They had dark skin but various shades of eyes including blue. The face shape was similarly to modern Europeans.
The sculptor and archaeologist Oscar Nilsson recreates prehistoric faces from remains. He says that both men and women of that (pre-farming) era had more masculine features ( jawline and suck) yet the ones from Europe look distinctly European.
https://www.odnilsson.com/gallery/reconstructions/
Historically, the Jews have preferred the flexibility of not being definitively in one category or another because proper definitions sabotage their special pleading, which is their ecological niche. Therefore the MENA category is bad for the Jews, therefore I predict it won’t happen.
White as it is currently used is synonymous with European
This is an example of anti-white said in the nicest possible tone. The lack of self awareness and egoism is astounding.
As how YOU see it. Must all whites hold this position? If they don’t, what’s you response?
“This is an example of anti-white said in the nicest possible tone. The lack of self awareness and egoism is astounding.”
So multiculturalism = anti white?
OK, so can white people be friends with non suites? Can they work together? Is a white person able to sell their house to a nonwhite? How about marry or sire offspring? Would all of those behaviors be considered anti white?
Important questions here. So what do YOU think?
***delusions; FIFY. You’re the funniest commenter on this websight and it’s not even close. Keep up the solid work.
Even less than 20% in several cases, and then we might separate out Catholics who (correctly) insist they’re not WASP, and then white hispanics, and so on. You’re left with a vanishingly small number, many or most of whom are recruited athletes.
(PS. Is it good for the Americans? Probably not. You get even more ethnic infighting with yet another bloc to squabble over the country. Sure, you might get the white revolt against Jewish power you're hoping for, but that's not as useful as it would have been 40 years ago. It might be useful for the attempts to create a white-only state in, say, Idaho if the country breaks up.)(PPS. Is it good for the Arabs? Maybe. It's going to get a lot harder to get into Harvard if you have to compete with the Jews, but for the more average Arabs they might get some of those sweet federal contracts.)(PPPS. What are *you* going to do, wiseguy? Claim nonwhite status and sandbag the diversity agenda every chance I can get, I already have the Hispanic card to play and argued for the hiring of at least 3 white guys, 2 from originally-rural backgrounds, over the past couple of years (though how much was due to me I have no clue, and I suspect not that much). But no more details. For all I know Unz is secretly in league with Judith Butler or something.)Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @IHTG, @Redneck farmer, @Anonymous, @mc23, @Buzz Mohawk, @Inverness
So you have the Hispanic card and the Jewish card. Nice!
I’m so old that i can remember when it took five cards to make a royal flush.
The DNA of Jews is very close to Mediterraneans, in particular Sicily, Southern Italy and Greece. I was surprised that this was the case for myself as I have light skin, blue eyes and could pass for Northern European. Yet my genetic distance report was dominated by the Mediterranean. I think if Italians are considered white, Jews should be too. It’s true our paternal lineage can be traced to the Levant, but even the Levantine are considered to be on the fringes of being white.
Breitbart was apparently a goy (of Irish extraction) raised by a Jewish family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Breitbart
Very interesting combination.
The ratio of Jews to the total number of MENA might be too revealing. Say 4 million select MENA with 3 million selecting White or Hispanic, and the MENA total is 16 million. So Jews are just 25% of MENA but capture 85% of the Ivy League seats, 95% of the foreign aid, and 99% of the Narrative. How do they explain that? Will other MENA groups want Jews to be included ? Is it good for them? Do Arabs want to share MENA privilege with Jews? As Whites decline then Jews want to be able to mix in with other designated beneficiaries e.g. Hispanics. Hispanics are relaxed and rarely complain. Arabs may prove different
All of this prolix analysis of Jewish identity in the comments makes two things apparent to me.
The first is that either an outright majority of Steve’s commenters are of at least partial Jewish heritage, or that this topic appeals especially to that demographic and this is a skewed sample. As Steve himself might say, the answer’s probably 50/50.
Secondly, the fact that the iSteve comment section can’t seem to agree whether Jews are white or, more tellingly, even discuss the question in any methodical fashion, tells me that it’s a topic with a lot of unnecessary complexity. If a bunch of anonymous 30+-year-old nerds who think about social issues for fun can’t agree on something as fundamental as whether Mark Zuckerberg or Mark Cuban is white, then something weird is going on. Now, boil all this verbiage down to something your average 100IQ goy can ingest and it very quickly starts to crystallize into one of two possible worldviews: either the eschatological “the question of whether Jews are white is not for us mere mortals to understand”, or the national socialist “the Jews run everything and that’s the real problem.”
The argument over whether Irish were considered white or not seems like another example carelessly projecting our current cultural problems and debates onto the past for political reasons.
The Irish were largely treated as “lesser than” Anglos, both inside Ireland and in Anglo countries. Whether they were considered “white” or not seems like an irrelevant, tedious game of cherry-picking, hair-splitting and goalpost-moving. The differential treatment they received obviously was due mostly to mutable linguistic, religious and cultural differences. It was not due to genetic differences, even in phenotype, since the Irish and the English are genetically very similar. Now most, if not all, of the historical racism they faced has been eliminated, so they have “become white” in a real sense. Of course, being white in 2023 comes with far more liabilities and fewer privileges than it did 150, 100, or even ten years ago. So the Irish have gotten the short ends of whiteness and of non-whiteness.
Serious question: What are the borders of the Middle East? Does it include the European part of Turkey? Or everything up to the Caucasus mountain? Afghanistan?Replies: @AndrewR
Afghanistan is basically a mix of Iran, Central Asia and Pakistan. And Iran itself is very different from the Arab world and Turkey even if they all get lumped in together.
The term "white" as applied to race has pretty much whatever definition its user wants it to have in order for them to make their argument. In reality, the term is wildly inaccurate and manipulative regardless of how it's used.Replies: @Anonymous
If they hadn’t been considered white they wouldn’t have been allowed to emigrate to the U.S.
When it becomes only a concept, when it becomes something that is flowed to you through systems, then people start to really pay attention to those systems and why things are the way they are. People start to think about their relationship to the means of production in a conscious rather than just unconscious way.
Similarly Jews sticking their necks out too much used to be their disadvantage, which is why Jews have an always unthinking drive to downplay any collective actions or nepotism by Jews even as they extol them.
But once the moral high ground and control of ethnic politics was ceded to blacks, particularly post Floyd, many have begun to worry because they realise blacks see Jews as just rich white people whom they are in even more direct ethnic conflict.
The most prominent example was Bari Weiss resigning from a choice position at the NYT to protest 'wokeness'. If anyone else did this for any other reason than to raise a kite for other Jews essentially saying "Hey guys, #DefundTheIDF only has to trend and get into the news cycle once for us to have to defend this whole Israel thing and we can't do so morally, we need to take this to heel!", they'd have been unpersoned, instead Weiss got space to make her grievances in the prestige liberal media and got no shots at her back as she left the NYT. I found it strange that Steve took her position at face value despite her being a progressive Jewish lesbian from NYC, the only thing she had at odds with the 'woke' was that she was a turbo Zionists, indeed, her being a turbo Zionist is about the most significant and heartfelt position she has. (You could say she was a TERF but really you don't resign from the MSM to protest that)
Another more direct example is British comedian David Baddiel, Baddiel certainly doesn't pass for white and I honestly thought he was Indian. Which may explain why he is so irate at Jews being considered 'white', though to what consequence other than removing barriers to notice and criticise Jewish collective actions and Israel is beyond me.
What it doesn't explain is why a man whose career was long over and which was never a thing in the US, he was only famous in Britain, would get say a spot on The Late Show with Seth Meyers to shill a book of almost no broad interest or large sales potentials in the US. The only explanation being that Seth Meyers or the producers of the show (Most likely also Jewish like in almost all US talkshows) wanted to give him the spot that one usually has to compete for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O3N1HadPPA
The main concern is that Jews being lumped into whites means they lose their centrality and veto on ethnic politics and with that, the very different views of gentile non-whites on Israel becomes an issue. Screaming 'anti-semite!' doesn't really work on blacks like it does on whites.
When Baddiel absurdly claims that 'Jews don't count' or that 'anti-semitism' isn't considered 'racism' it makes a white person laugh but then you have stuff like what Whoppi Goldberg said and you wonder, is he right in that this is what non-whites actually believe. In truth though if that is the case it's only through the Jews trying to make 'anti-semitism' different to other kinds of ethnic or racial discrimination, they sought (And succeeded) in making it morally worse than others.
Ultimately a lot of Jews feel that being officially non-white is good for the Jews right now because it allows them to better avoid being stripped of moral legitimacy.
For Zionists (But not necessarily for Jews because it doesn't really matter to them outside of university quotas) this is a serious concern because if they lose moral veto power in ethnic politics by being to deflect any criticism of group or collective actions taken in the name of Jews or Israel by non-whites gaining too much moral high ground and able to treat them as 'white' then they have to actually defend what Israel does or what the US does for Israel and that's a hard debate to win in the open.Replies: @Pixo, @AndrewR
Not true that Bari Weiss is a “leftist except for Israel and transmania.”
Just one example: a pro-Kyle Rittenhouse article:
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-medias-verdict-on-kyle-rittenhouse
Here’s her view on DeSantis:
“The GOP has a definitive new star and his name is Ron DeSantis. The Florida governor beat Charlie Crist by 20 points. He carried blue counties, like Miami-Dade, by 10 points. Remember when Florida was a swing state?
What’s going on in Florida? A few things: DeSantis resisted the Covid lockdowns, championed legislation to keep “W.O.K.E.” indoctrination out of schools, competently handled a hurricane, and emphasized (here’s an idea) punishing criminals. There is a reason 61,728 New Yorkers and 27,081 Californians fled their be-masked states for Florida in 2021.“
Here’s a column that embeds multiple videos of blacks attacking asians and attacks the msm for blaming the attacks on “white supremacy.”
https://www.thefp.com/p/do-not-look-away-from-evil
Her work isn’t aimed at you or iSteve readers, but towards convincing moderate Jews and educated secular whites to abandon the left and be open to voting for conservative Republicans. And she’s really good at it.
Weiss decided to pick the unwoke liberal team, which isn’t too bad considering what their woke brethren are up to. The whole autistic-rationalist-libertarian complex, as I guess I’m calling it, has produced a lot of useful things. It just doesn’t work by itself.
I’m not actually against another neocon (in the original sense of left to right) movement if it undoes some of wokism, I just don’t want to see this country dragged into another war for Israel. (Ukraine doesn’t count IMHO; that’s a Russo-American-proxy imperial war.)
I doubt, even what the Jews have pushed for in America is not “good for the Jews”–long term. Mostly it merely satisfied their atavistic impulses toward bashing, pushing around and abusing the goyim. (Actually not “satisfied”, they just can’t stop.)
Long term, America is going to be poorer and much more contentious–with populations less amenable to Jewish special pleading. And the most likely economic champion successor states–really the only credible one is China–are not going to be open for Jewish middle manning.
Never–on this scale–have any people been given such opportunity and repaid it with such ingratitude, disloyalty and contempt.
(I wonder if the ambivalence of Israel towards Ukraine isn't motivated in part by the realization that a rich and successful Ukrainian state will attract Jewish migrants who would otherwise have made aliyah.)Replies: @Nachum
Do you think for a moment this would have been revived were it not ?
I mean the obvious answer is should this group inevitably be given mandated race based preferences in employment and education etc Israelis will completely dominate ultimately.
Of course its secondary and other effects are creating the impression of a smaller white population etc
Is there a more obvious government in modern history that openly works directly against the majority and founding population and their descendants. There isnt even the pretense anymore which angers people.
Imagine a GRC for different racial groups, European-American Whites, one for Blacks, one for Mena , for Hispanics and another for Asians.Replies: @Twinkie
Very common in film ensembles these days: hot white female (this is still Hollywood), black male leader (or black female brainiac), brave Muslim girl, good-natured Hispanic, and a wise and/or witty Indian (South Asian).
Villains? Old and/or blond white male, East Asian male, or Hapa male of some sort.
Except, of course, in indies (often portraying broken down, gritty whites) or saccharine ethnic movies (e.g. “Crazy Rich Asians”).
Steve asks what he asks, because his question is the relevant one for whether this could suddenly stop, and for tossing open the discussion here. (I’m not going to be in the MENA category regardless.)
But I’ll take a cut at your question:
Ideally–if we were in charge of our nation and the immigration madness absent–then wouldn’t much matter. Having good data is informative and fun. (I really like it.) But really the categories
— Native American Indian
— Black
— Regular American
would be sufficient.
My take is absent the immigration insanity, “whiteness” would pretty quickly absorb Asians–and to a lesser extent Hispanics. None of these peoples is naturally majority hostile like the Jews. They are the normal people in their home countries and are prone to take anti-whiteness here because our ideology now–since the rise of the Jews–is anti-integrative. Instead of “be like George Washington” it’s “be like Dreyfus” and revel in your oppression at the hands of the blond beast. (If you have to hunt down something from 70 years ago, or 100 or the 19th century or just make shit up–that’s ok.) I.e. anti-whiteness is encouraged and it pays.
But absent more immigration Asians–and again to a lesser extent Hispanics–would be absorbed over a few generations. Lots of people would be “white”, while being a little bit Asian and/or somewhat Hispanic, with the percentages varying according to social class.
~~
But in the state we’re in–i.e. losing–i think the more categories more balkanization and more data and truth are actually in our interest.
Balkanize away
— get “mestizo” and “mulatto” racial categories;
— pull the Indians out of Asian and get them in their own “South Asian” category
— do the MENA thing
— eliminate this nonsense of “Hispanic” as the lone ethnic category–have Generic white American, English, Scots-Irish, Irish, German, Italian … Mexican, Cuban … Black ADOS, Black Caribbean, Black African … Jewish, Arab … Chinese, Indian, Filipino …
And then require every American institution collect and publish their data. Not just schools, but crime stats–offenders and victims. Workforce (with salary bands) and officers of public corporations. And especially the media companies–every columnist and reporter.
TPTB have run this grift of claiming that whitey is out there oppressing everyone–J. Thurston Howell in his Country Club or Billy Bob driven his pickup with a gun rack–with “structural racism” omnipresent. Let’s get the data out there and see who really is the “structure”, “the system” in America?
Steve motto to whites is and always has been lay back and think of civic nationalism.Replies: @Adghjjhfddg
He asked “would it be good for the Jews?” because it’s a common question and theme for Jews, and has been the subject of humor and parody among Jews for years, often in the form of something totally unrelated to the welfare of the Jewish people, such as whether or not a professional sports team wins a championship.
Jews got the divided nation they wanted. Are they going to do as well when nobody trusts them and every group is ruthless, rootless, and tribal? I doubt it. After seeing what Jews have done to this nation, why would they be trusted?
interesting than Chinese, Japanese and Korean are in separate categories of their own even though it’s clear they are very closely related genetically, geographically and culturally. But perhaps they hate each other so much they would rather be in groups of their own than together
But I'll take a cut at your question:Ideally--if we were in charge of our nation and the immigration madness absent--then wouldn't much matter. Having good data is informative and fun. (I really like it.) But really the categories
-- Native American Indian
-- Black
-- Regular American
would be sufficient.My take is absent the immigration insanity, "whiteness" would pretty quickly absorb Asians--and to a lesser extent Hispanics. None of these peoples is naturally majority hostile like the Jews. They are the normal people in their home countries and are prone to take anti-whiteness here because our ideology now--since the rise of the Jews--is anti-integrative. Instead of "be like George Washington" it's "be like Dreyfus" and revel in your oppression at the hands of the blond beast. (If you have to hunt down something from 70 years ago, or 100 or the 19th century or just make shit up--that's ok.) I.e. anti-whiteness is encouraged and it pays.But absent more immigration Asians--and again to a lesser extent Hispanics--would be absorbed over a few generations. Lots of people would be "white", while being a little bit Asian and/or somewhat Hispanic, with the percentages varying according to social class.~~But in the state we're in--i.e. losing--i think the more categories more balkanization and more data and truth are actually in our interest. Balkanize away
-- get "mestizo" and "mulatto" racial categories;
-- pull the Indians out of Asian and get them in their own "South Asian" category
-- do the MENA thing
-- eliminate this nonsense of "Hispanic" as the lone ethnic category--have Generic white American, English, Scots-Irish, Irish, German, Italian ... Mexican, Cuban ... Black ADOS, Black Caribbean, Black African ... Jewish, Arab ... Chinese, Indian, Filipino ...And then require every American institution collect and publish their data. Not just schools, but crime stats--offenders and victims. Workforce (with salary bands) and officers of public corporations. And especially the media companies--every columnist and reporter. TPTB have run this grift of claiming that whitey is out there oppressing everyone--J. Thurston Howell in his Country Club or Billy Bob driven his pickup with a gun rack--with "structural racism" omnipresent. Let's get the data out there and see who really is the "structure", "the system" in America?Replies: @Adghjjhfddg, @Twinkie
FREE HAVEN MONAHAN!!!
Ben Shapiro says he’s white, but his wife is a MENA. Did you know she’s a doctor?
This is an example of anti-white said in the nicest possible tone. The lack of self awareness and egoism is astounding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G45WthPTo24Replies: @Corvinus
“White as it is currently used is synonymous with European”
As how YOU see it. Must all whites hold this position? If they don’t, what’s you response?
“This is an example of anti-white said in the nicest possible tone. The lack of self awareness and egoism is astounding.”
So multiculturalism = anti white?
OK, so can white people be friends with non suites? Can they work together? Is a white person able to sell their house to a nonwhite? How about marry or sire offspring? Would all of those behaviors be considered anti white?
Important questions here. So what do YOU think?
The guy behind SFA, which may overturn affirmative action, is Jewish, as is Stephen Miller and was Andrew Breitbart. (I’m half. My mom is a soft hearted but basically conservative lady who says the Dems have gone anti white and worries about crime in New York.) It’s not a universal thing. But overall, a majority lean left. That wouldn’t be a big deal if the verbal IQ didn’t make them so effective.
I used to gripe a little about the Golfocaust when younger until realizing the world the 60s brought in was immeasurably worse. We were never going to be Japan, but we didn’t have nerdy kids castrating themselves to become ‘lesbians’. I mean, I guess Dungeons and Dragons is an effective (male) contraceptive, but it stops working if you stop playing.Replies: @Simon in London, @Corvinus, @Bill P, @neutral
No, jews are only genetically defined (from the Middle East). Nobody will think it a contradiction to say “Bhuddist jew”, “atheist jew”, “transhumanist jew”, etc, now try applying the same logic to any other religion.
So for example the average Ashkenazi Jew is not much removed from Southern Europeans on regional/global PCA. They look roughly similar too. But not many Americans cast doubt on the whiteness of Southern Europeans; whereas with Ashkenazi Jews the question hangs over them to some extent; it’s open for debate. The cause of confusion and debate is the religious factor which separates Jews from average Euro-Americans.
With regards to Middle Easterners; the problem is compounded by the vast religious and cultural gap which separates them from average white Americans. My personal experience as a Muslim Middle Easterner some years ago in the US, is that Americans - even the non-white ones - use this heuristic when determining who is white: “Osama cannot be white; Nicholas, maybe”.
I remember talking to an African-American uber driver one time; and after conversing for a while I mentioned that I was from Egypt; to which he promptly exclaimed “wuuut, but I thought you was white!” The implicit point being that, though on the exterior he initially thought I looked white; my Muslim background meant that he no longer saw me as white. I’ve had other such experiences of a dramatic change in perception upon finding out I was a Muslim (usually through my Islamic name).
So you can bring up Fst scores, admixture plots, population movement etc. all you want to show that Middle Easterners and Europeans are the same racially; but the average American doesn’t care about that stuff. They don’t code Osama as white no matter the genotype or phenotype. It’s instinctive.
With regards to Middle Eastern phenotypes; it’s important to keep in mind that they vary a bit. Not all Middle Easterners look visually white (far from it); there is a wide divergence within the same ethno-religous groups and even nuclear family. In the Middle East, everywhere from Egypt to Iran; there is what I call the “Phenotypic Duality”; some will look (off-)white, others fairly brown. In some countries like Turkey and Lebanon the whiter ones constitute the majority; in other countries like Egypt and Iraq the browner ones prevail. The proportions differ by region; but the absolute number on the minority side is always substantial enough to cause confusion on whether Middle Easterners are “brown” or “white” visually.
For example, in Iran there are people like Leila Hatami who look white and are tough to distinguish from average Southern Europeans.
https://i.ibb.co/qrjndYq/360026-E1-281-C-44-FF-8371-3932-FD05-CBD1.webp
But then there are others like Asghar Farhadi who are quite brown and look more like Pakistanis; no-one would call them white.
https://i.ibb.co/XS24ffN/23-E17797-26-B7-4632-B1-A9-7-E654-F911086.jpg
The Hatamis and Farhadis each number in the millions; so you can find examples of each in abundance; and this is what causes confusion. Are Iranians white or non-white? Visually - both. But in the American coding framework; almost all are Muslims, therefore non-white - no matter the phenotype or genotype.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
Agreed. My opinion is a bit different only because I don’t care for genotype; “race” is phenotype plus culture.
As I said elsewhere: it is both a phenotype & culture. White phenotype includes “normative whites” like Gina Lolobrigida, Jean Gabin, Melina Mercouri, Greta Garbo, Vittorio de Sica, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Pablo Picasso, Carlos Fuentes, Igor Stravinsky, Paul Singer, Fidel Castro, Antony Blinken, Hafez al Assad, Bibi Netanyahu, Julius Evola…and “ambiguous whites” like Anastas Mikoyan, Idries Shah, Charles Aznavour, Ehud Barak,…
Western civilization is composed of three elements:
1. Greco-Roman heritage
2. Christianity, various post-Christian sects & modernized Judaism
3. scientific- rational method from the 17th C on
Jews are white- they may be inimical to “whiteness”, but that doesn’t change much- because they assimilated, most of them. They absorbed Western culture & are a part of it, in arts, sciences, cultural history etc.
With Islam this is different because Islam is not “Westernized”. During the Golden Age, Islam did absorb many elements from the West & the East, but …
Islamic culture, any period, is clearly Middle Eastern plus other Asian mixtures added; Christianity, after its initial Jewish period, has always been culturally-historically something entirely different. It was the European religion mixed with a Middle Eastern sensibility & stories.
Needless to say, there was never a Christian shariah (which is almost equal to Jewish halacha), because Christians have built upon Roman law. Culturally, Muslims have adopted from ancient world, except sciences, only parts of Aristotle & Plotinus.
They did not absorb, as Christians did, Greek tragedy & Roman drama, schools like Skepticism, Epicureanism, Stoicism, Cynicism, …; ancient music (melodies etc.); visual arts; literature from Homer to Virgil to Ovid; …
This is pre-Renaissance Christian art, the 10th C:
And this is Shiraz:
Evidently- worlds apart.
But, more importantly, even Islamic secularists don’t mean, in the broadest sense, Homer, Seneca, Epictetus, Phydias, … when they say “we”. Secularized Jews are, on the other hand, frequently scholars of the classical Antiquity or Renaissance,something alien to most educated Muslims.
And, modernized Jews have adopted modernized Christians’ values: secularism, individualism, rationalism, belief in progress, belief in the rule of secular law, democracy, anti-dogmatism, cultural curiosity, religious tolerance….
That’s why I think that Muslims, even when they’re phenotypically white & educated, simply cannot “become” French or British or ….. Muslim primary emotional-historical-cultural identifications remain attached to a great living civilization which is – different,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGHA0FXyvHgReplies: @Bardon Kaldian
Can the census racial classification system serve as the basis for an automatic hate crime charge if a member of one group victimizes someone in a different race?
Absolutely, slurs and prejudices aside-
But I'll take a cut at your question:Ideally--if we were in charge of our nation and the immigration madness absent--then wouldn't much matter. Having good data is informative and fun. (I really like it.) But really the categories
-- Native American Indian
-- Black
-- Regular American
would be sufficient.My take is absent the immigration insanity, "whiteness" would pretty quickly absorb Asians--and to a lesser extent Hispanics. None of these peoples is naturally majority hostile like the Jews. They are the normal people in their home countries and are prone to take anti-whiteness here because our ideology now--since the rise of the Jews--is anti-integrative. Instead of "be like George Washington" it's "be like Dreyfus" and revel in your oppression at the hands of the blond beast. (If you have to hunt down something from 70 years ago, or 100 or the 19th century or just make shit up--that's ok.) I.e. anti-whiteness is encouraged and it pays.But absent more immigration Asians--and again to a lesser extent Hispanics--would be absorbed over a few generations. Lots of people would be "white", while being a little bit Asian and/or somewhat Hispanic, with the percentages varying according to social class.~~But in the state we're in--i.e. losing--i think the more categories more balkanization and more data and truth are actually in our interest. Balkanize away
-- get "mestizo" and "mulatto" racial categories;
-- pull the Indians out of Asian and get them in their own "South Asian" category
-- do the MENA thing
-- eliminate this nonsense of "Hispanic" as the lone ethnic category--have Generic white American, English, Scots-Irish, Irish, German, Italian ... Mexican, Cuban ... Black ADOS, Black Caribbean, Black African ... Jewish, Arab ... Chinese, Indian, Filipino ...And then require every American institution collect and publish their data. Not just schools, but crime stats--offenders and victims. Workforce (with salary bands) and officers of public corporations. And especially the media companies--every columnist and reporter. TPTB have run this grift of claiming that whitey is out there oppressing everyone--J. Thurston Howell in his Country Club or Billy Bob driven his pickup with a gun rack--with "structural racism" omnipresent. Let's get the data out there and see who really is the "structure", "the system" in America?Replies: @Adghjjhfddg, @Twinkie
I agree with the general thrust of your comment, but this part, I don’t think, is necessary. Just allow people to pick more than one category to account for all major ancestries. Most black Americans would punch “African” and “European” buttons while most Hispanics “European” and “American Indian” (or “Indigenous American” to be politically correct).
This thought-experiment has been run in Airy, NC. The Siamese Twins (who were ethnic Chinese), the Bunkers, settled there before the Civil War and married locals. Initially the community was hostile to them, but appreciated their (mixed) children who were described in the local paper as a credit to their parents and to the community. Two of the sons served loyally in the Confederate Army. Today there are lots of local residents, hundreds in number, who are white, but trace their ancestry to the Bunkers.
I’m personally fully prepared for the eventuality that some or all my grandkids will look pretty white, something I’ve seen with some Americans with Japanese surnames.
I doubt that unless they have a white grandparent.
In NZ it's very common for Maori and Pacific Islanders to choose both their primary ancestry and "European", even if their European ancestry is from generations ago. At first glance, it can be quite misleading when looking up an area's white demographics.
According to this study it appears Whites are more open to dating people from the Middle East then they are of other groups. Intuitively it makes sense to me given my “lived experience”, so maybe it’s bunk.
On the other hand, South Asian Indians being least desired by non-Indians is probably pretty accurate.
I recently saw that based on examing human remains Scandinavia had a high percentage of Irish DNA at one time, probably, captives brought back during the dark ages. After a 1000 years it’s dwindled to a very small amount.
Now maybe not so much-
African Americans appreciate when we don’t wave off their pain by pointing to all the progress America has made in racial relation in the past fifty years. And, we need to speak honestly with our Black brothers and sisters about the damage that is done to the Jewish people globally when we are simplistically framed us as “white and privileged.”
https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/are-jews-white-and-why-it-matters-632671Replies: @AndrewR
The lack of self-awareness by a tribesman would be astounding to me if I weren’t so used to it. But it is rare to see their hypocrisy summed up so neatly, in their own words.
Many Jews see it as in their interests to undermine the White Christian society. That is what makes them anti-white. They see the White society as Christian.Replies: @Corvinus
“Jewish morality consists of doing what’s good for the Jews.”
So “white morality” must be in the interest of whites? What does that even look like?
Furthermore, what about Christian morality? Is that supposed to be white centric?
“As Steve said, “Jewish groups felt that wasn’t good for the Jews, so it didn’t become policy.”
He says alot of things. Doesn’t mean it’s true.
“Many Jews see it as in their interests to undermine the White Christian society That is what makes them anti-white”
And you know this how?
Pray tell, must ALL white me agree with you, lest they be anti-white?
When it becomes only a concept, when it becomes something that is flowed to you through systems, then people start to really pay attention to those systems and why things are the way they are. People start to think about their relationship to the means of production in a conscious rather than just unconscious way.
Similarly Jews sticking their necks out too much used to be their disadvantage, which is why Jews have an always unthinking drive to downplay any collective actions or nepotism by Jews even as they extol them.
But once the moral high ground and control of ethnic politics was ceded to blacks, particularly post Floyd, many have begun to worry because they realise blacks see Jews as just rich white people whom they are in even more direct ethnic conflict.
The most prominent example was Bari Weiss resigning from a choice position at the NYT to protest 'wokeness'. If anyone else did this for any other reason than to raise a kite for other Jews essentially saying "Hey guys, #DefundTheIDF only has to trend and get into the news cycle once for us to have to defend this whole Israel thing and we can't do so morally, we need to take this to heel!", they'd have been unpersoned, instead Weiss got space to make her grievances in the prestige liberal media and got no shots at her back as she left the NYT. I found it strange that Steve took her position at face value despite her being a progressive Jewish lesbian from NYC, the only thing she had at odds with the 'woke' was that she was a turbo Zionists, indeed, her being a turbo Zionist is about the most significant and heartfelt position she has. (You could say she was a TERF but really you don't resign from the MSM to protest that)
Another more direct example is British comedian David Baddiel, Baddiel certainly doesn't pass for white and I honestly thought he was Indian. Which may explain why he is so irate at Jews being considered 'white', though to what consequence other than removing barriers to notice and criticise Jewish collective actions and Israel is beyond me.
What it doesn't explain is why a man whose career was long over and which was never a thing in the US, he was only famous in Britain, would get say a spot on The Late Show with Seth Meyers to shill a book of almost no broad interest or large sales potentials in the US. The only explanation being that Seth Meyers or the producers of the show (Most likely also Jewish like in almost all US talkshows) wanted to give him the spot that one usually has to compete for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O3N1HadPPA
The main concern is that Jews being lumped into whites means they lose their centrality and veto on ethnic politics and with that, the very different views of gentile non-whites on Israel becomes an issue. Screaming 'anti-semite!' doesn't really work on blacks like it does on whites.
When Baddiel absurdly claims that 'Jews don't count' or that 'anti-semitism' isn't considered 'racism' it makes a white person laugh but then you have stuff like what Whoppi Goldberg said and you wonder, is he right in that this is what non-whites actually believe. In truth though if that is the case it's only through the Jews trying to make 'anti-semitism' different to other kinds of ethnic or racial discrimination, they sought (And succeeded) in making it morally worse than others.
Ultimately a lot of Jews feel that being officially non-white is good for the Jews right now because it allows them to better avoid being stripped of moral legitimacy.
For Zionists (But not necessarily for Jews because it doesn't really matter to them outside of university quotas) this is a serious concern because if they lose moral veto power in ethnic politics by being to deflect any criticism of group or collective actions taken in the name of Jews or Israel by non-whites gaining too much moral high ground and able to treat them as 'white' then they have to actually defend what Israel does or what the US does for Israel and that's a hard debate to win in the open.Replies: @Pixo, @AndrewR
I don’t see any difference between him and John Oliver. Literally same face, same voice, same accent, same smug and unfunny manner.
Does John Oliver seem Indian and “certainly non-white” to you?
As for what Whoopi said, it was obviously ridiculous. Leaving aside arguments about how race can objectively defined – of course the Nazis viewed the Jews as a different race. But her point wasn’t to dismiss the suffering the Jews allegedly faced. It was to point out that extreme infliction of suffering isn’t always the result of racism.
But if Whoopi revealed the clueless beliefs some blacks have about Jews, the extreme overreaction to her comment only proved the point that even blacks had better know their place around Jews.
https://twitter.com/JoelWBerry/status/1619369674680197131?t=iI8sGluHe8oiSuEV9e9HUA&s=19Replies: @AndrewR
Straightest, least Jewish Republican
Long term, America is going to be poorer and much more contentious--with populations less amenable to Jewish special pleading. And the most likely economic champion successor states--really the only credible one is China--are not going to be open for Jewish middle manning.
Never--on this scale--have any people been given such opportunity and repaid it with such ingratitude, disloyalty and contempt.Replies: @Anonymous
American Jews originated in eastern Europe and I imagine that as the U.S. becomes increasingly chaotic and dysfunctional, that’s where they’ll return. It will be a kind of homecoming.
(I wonder if the ambivalence of Israel towards Ukraine isn’t motivated in part by the realization that a rich and successful Ukrainian state will attract Jewish migrants who would otherwise have made aliyah.)
https://twitter.com/datepsych/status/1616214859649007618?s=20&t=OPS2cMOms82sEwmqhF9NbAReplies: @Twinkie, @Alice in Wonderland
It’s the opposite. Those graphs say that white participants are the least open to Middle Easterners in dating. I don’t know how reliable they are, though, since Hispanics appear to be more open to dating blacks than whites according to them.
On the other hand, South Asian Indians being least desired by non-Indians is probably pretty accurate.
One odd wrinkle is that the Jews most likely to tick the box (literal Israelis, Mizrahim, Ashkenazim- mostly Orthodox, I’d assume- who identify with Israel)- are *also* those least likely to do so, because they are opposed to affirmative action, or think it would be cheating, or don’t want to be lumped together with blacks, or aren’t big fans of Arabs, etc.
One of the most anti-Arab Jews I’ve ever known was a classmate at Yeshiva University who was literally born in Yemen. Israel’s new “National Security” minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, not a big fan of the Arabs, is proudly of Iraqi Kurdish descent. (I’m guessing his grandparents’ first language was Arabic; his father changed the family name from Arabic.)
The question is what the relative numbers will be.
Incidentally, the Reagan administration *did* add some Jews, specifically Hasidic ones (or maybe ultra-Orthodox in general) to affirmative action lists in a limited way as a “disadvantaged minority.” It’s unclear how much an affect this had and whether it still exists.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
That spritz of Yamnaya blood is what puts us over the edge.
“ Most black Americans would punch “African” and “European” buttons”
I doubt that unless they have a white grandparent.
I can’t see black Americans (except for some of those with a white parent) choosing “European”, but if they did, I can’t imagine it would make commenters here very happy, given that it would help obscure the extent of white decline.
In NZ it’s very common for Maori and Pacific Islanders to choose both their primary ancestry and “European”, even if their European ancestry is from generations ago. At first glance, it can be quite misleading when looking up an area’s white demographics.
Since the Racial Reckoning, left-wing Jews have tried to salve their troubled consciences over being rich, white, and Privileged in one of two ways: Either by loudly beating themselves up (words only, of course, nothing practical) over being rich, white, and Privileged; or by loudly proclaiming that Jews aren’t white, either figuratively (in that Jews are not the same ethnicity and do not have the same history as Archie Bunker and/or Thurston Howell) or literally (over-emphasizing the small number of American Jews who aren’t white, especially black ones); or both. It’s a weird blend of ethnic masochisms. I don’t think it will affect this question much. Lefty Jews “care” about blacks too much to horn in on their privileges without guilt.
His daughter was in high schools in the 1970's. Her hippy school teacher loved Roots and asked her students to write about their roots. When my friend's father heard about it, he interpreted it as if he were in central Europe in the 1940s. He went to the teacher to yell at her about being a Nazi lover of Hitler. It took a long time for my friend to explain to the teacher why the crazy Czech was screaming at her.Replies: @AndrewR
Even leaving my prior biases aside, it still seems safe to say that his immigration to this country was not in our benefit.
As I said elsewhere: it is both a phenotype & culture. White phenotype includes “normative whites” like Gina Lolobrigida, Jean Gabin, Melina Mercouri, Greta Garbo, Vittorio de Sica, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Pablo Picasso, Carlos Fuentes, Igor Stravinsky, Paul Singer, Fidel Castro, Antony Blinken, Hafez al Assad, Bibi Netanyahu, Julius Evola…and “ambiguous whites” like Anastas Mikoyan, Idries Shah, Charles Aznavour, Ehud Barak,…
Western civilization is composed of three elements:
1. Greco-Roman heritage
2. Christianity, various post-Christian sects & modernized Judaism
3. scientific- rational method from the 17th C on
Jews are white- they may be inimical to "whiteness", but that doesn't change much- because they assimilated, most of them. They absorbed Western culture & are a part of it, in arts, sciences, cultural history etc.
With Islam this is different because Islam is not "Westernized". During the Golden Age, Islam did absorb many elements from the West & the East, but ...
Islamic culture, any period, is clearly Middle Eastern plus other Asian mixtures added; Christianity, after its initial Jewish period, has always been culturally-historically something entirely different. It was the European religion mixed with a Middle Eastern sensibility & stories.
Needless to say, there was never a Christian shariah (which is almost equal to Jewish halacha), because Christians have built upon Roman law. Culturally, Muslims have adopted from ancient world, except sciences, only parts of Aristotle & Plotinus.
They did not absorb, as Christians did, Greek tragedy & Roman drama, schools like Skepticism, Epicureanism, Stoicism, Cynicism, …; ancient music (melodies etc.); visual arts; literature from Homer to Virgil to Ovid; …
This is pre-Renaissance Christian art, the 10th C:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Triptych_Harbaville_Louvre_OA3247_recto.jpg/1024px-Triptych_Harbaville_Louvre_OA3247_recto.jpg
And this is Shiraz:
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/atlas_obscura/2015/01/21/mosques_of_shiraz_iran/1732536612_4edc3b94b7_b.jpg.CROP.promo-large2.jpg
Evidently- worlds apart.
But, more importantly, even Islamic secularists don't mean, in the broadest sense, Homer, Seneca, Epictetus, Phydias, ... when they say "we". Secularized Jews are, on the other hand, frequently scholars of the classical Antiquity or Renaissance,something alien to most educated Muslims.
And, modernized Jews have adopted modernized Christians' values: secularism, individualism, rationalism, belief in progress, belief in the rule of secular law, democracy, anti-dogmatism, cultural curiosity, religious tolerance....
That's why I think that Muslims, even when they're phenotypically white & educated, simply cannot "become" French or British or ..... Muslim primary emotional-historical-cultural identifications remain attached to a great living civilization which is - different,Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
The Arab (-speaking world) kept Greco-Roman learning alive during the Dark Ages,
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorsque_le_monde_parlait_arabe
https://www.friesian.com/islam.htm
13th CE was a watershed period for the Arabs that Europe barely averted,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
(I wonder if the ambivalence of Israel towards Ukraine isn't motivated in part by the realization that a rich and successful Ukrainian state will attract Jewish migrants who would otherwise have made aliyah.)Replies: @Nachum
I’m pretty sure the number of Jews dying to move back to Eastern Europe is zero. And certainly not any who’d otherwise consider Israel.
In Peter Bergen’s and Thomas Luckmann’s seminal work, The Social Construction of Reality, they contend ideology in society shapes the way we view the social world, defining roles, norms, and expectations. Ideology is central to the social constructionist argument, defining right and wrong, and what constitutes a violation of moral “reality”; that is, the norms and social facts everyone “knows” to be true—even if it is not based on “objective truth”.
The end result? It becomes difficult in our competing, divisive world to assess, without bias getting into the way, the scientific validity of claims made about the extent of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, anti-whitism, etc. lest we dare to honestly and personally question the sacred values of the ideology we tout.
That is where personal reflection comes into focus. It must be challenging, right?Replies: @anon, @MEH 0910
https://www.racket.news/p/move-over-jayson-blair-meet-hamilton
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/12/twitter-files-explained-elon-musk-taibbi-weiss-hunter-biden-laptop.html
“For these reasons, the Twitter Files are best understood as an egregious example of the very phenomenon it purports to condemn — that of social-media managers leveraging their platforms for partisan ends.”
https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-states-government-pennsylvania-2022-midterm-elections-arizona-6ce58816a74a76c7ff97c64f8a4c85e9?taid=63d5ad43056e600001abac37&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1618826848900907009?cxt=HHwWgoDUmaacnfcsAAAA
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/01/2016-us-election-outcome-russian-social-media-trolls/672836/
https://popular.info/p/twitter-cant-handle-the-truth
https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/has-twitter-had-a-far-right-bent?utm_source=twitter&sd=pfReplies: @Frankie P
We Jews should be counted as “Jews” or “Persons of Jewish Extraction”. We do not belong to any group but our own.
Gosh, thanks, I never knew that.
Well, if there’s money to be made …….
What’s going on in Florida? A few things: DeSantis resisted the Covid lockdowns, championed legislation to keep “W.O.K.E.” indoctrination out of schools, competently handled a hurricane, and emphasized (here’s an idea) punishing criminals. There is a reason 61,728 New Yorkers and 27,081 Californians fled their be-masked states for Florida in 2021.“Here’s a column that embeds multiple videos of blacks attacking asians and attacks the msm for blaming the attacks on “white supremacy.”https://www.thefp.com/p/do-not-look-away-from-evilHer work isn’t aimed at you or iSteve readers, but towards convincing moderate Jews and educated secular whites to abandon the left and be open to voting for conservative Republicans. And she’s really good at it.Replies: @SFG
People have to conform to societal standards to survive (and the instinct is particularly strong with women for evolutionary reasons). Probably when Weiss quit being a left-wing pundit she had to start espousing right-wing or at least right leaning causes; you have to pick a team, and if it isn’t one of the two biggest ones you pick a smaller one. Freddie DeBoer, a Marxist who thinks woke is a distraction from class struggle, now has a large conservative and unwoke liberal audience not into communism he complains about.
Weiss decided to pick the unwoke liberal team, which isn’t too bad considering what their woke brethren are up to. The whole autistic-rationalist-libertarian complex, as I guess I’m calling it, has produced a lot of useful things. It just doesn’t work by itself.
I’m not actually against another neocon (in the original sense of left to right) movement if it undoes some of wokism, I just don’t want to see this country dragged into another war for Israel. (Ukraine doesn’t count IMHO; that’s a Russo-American-proxy imperial war.)
Oh come on. You have five boxes or so to tick and a group that’s 2 percent of the population gets its own? That’s a little cocky. Certainly ‘mixed’ ought to get its own category first.
The first is that either an outright majority of Steve's commenters are of at least partial Jewish heritage, or that this topic appeals especially to that demographic and this is a skewed sample. As Steve himself might say, the answer's probably 50/50.
Secondly, the fact that the iSteve comment section can't seem to agree whether Jews are white or, more tellingly, even discuss the question in any methodical fashion, tells me that it's a topic with a lot of unnecessary complexity. If a bunch of anonymous 30+-year-old nerds who think about social issues for fun can't agree on something as fundamental as whether Mark Zuckerberg or Mark Cuban is white, then something weird is going on. Now, boil all this verbiage down to something your average 100IQ goy can ingest and it very quickly starts to crystallize into one of two possible worldviews: either the eschatological "the question of whether Jews are white is not for us mere mortals to understand", or the national socialist "the Jews run everything and that's the real problem."Replies: @BB753
The average Isteve poster is above 60 years old. An older demographic than you believe.
Yeah, a lot of the Boomer-era culture Steve genuinely loves has a heavily Jewish influence.
Of course, Jews were prominent behind the scenes, in artist management and legal assistance notably. Is that the cultural influence you mean?
When they do bad things, it’s useful for Jews to be perceived as vaguely white – i.e., Epstein, Weinstein, and Madoff. A lot of Americans who were raised away from places with inter-ethnic consciousness (East Coast cities) don’t really have a concept of Jews or necessarily recognize Jews as Jews from typical Jewish names and phenotypes. They tend to only perceive someone as Jewish when that person declares himself to be Jewish outside of limited, obvious fringe cases (orthodox yarmulke wearing/Hasidim, etc.).
On the other hand, Jews get a lot of milage out of being Jewish when it comes to special pleading and exercising a heckler’s veto to break up expressions of social/community unity – i.e., you can’t have an anodyne Protestant prayer in a public school because it will cause the faces of the two Jewish children in the school to melt off or something. In that sense it is a very negatively defined identity – those who stand in opposition to the normalization of Christianity in a nation that is 85%+ nominally Christian. They’re the “not white American Christian” people who despite comprising 2% of your population get to declare the outlines of your law, culture and society so that it fits them comfortably.
That’s why I get irked when fanatics like Jonathan Goldblatt or Jason Stanley promote such vicious stereotypes about majority Americans. To me, they sound like the malicious crank ranting in the beer hall.
Much later, I’ll never forget driving in a car to view Christmas lights with four liberal Jewish friends. It was dark and I was quiet. Trying to be funny, they said a good number of unkind things about Christians. Among my peers, I have never once heard anything unkind said by nonJews behind closed doors about Jews.Replies: @Thea, @Alec Leamas (working from home)
There are several strains of Jews. They could simply have treated Ashkenazi and Sephardic as ethnicities, ignoring religious practice altogether. Fr HaroldCohen would be listed as Ashkenazi (if he indeed was; I don’t know), while Sammy Davis Jr would be black, and David Klinghoffer English and Swedish.
This wouldn’t have worked in the 1950s, but later censuses asked for specific ethnicity, just out of curiosity, as asking how many refrigerators you have on the more extended form. It is incorrect to say that Hispanic is the only ethnicity on the Census; it’s just the only one that matters.
Actually, the 1960s, at least musically, were decidedly less Jewish than earlier decades. At least half the Golden Age songwriters were Jews. The top pornographers of the swingin’ Seventies were Heffner, Guccione, and Flynt.
Of course, Jews were prominent behind the scenes, in artist management and legal assistance notably. Is that the cultural influence you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGHA0FXyvHgReplies: @Bardon Kaldian
No, Greece (and, later, Rome) is the cradle of Western civilization as we perceive it. Nowhere else are central elements that constitute Western identity present: individualism, secularism, democracy, rationalism, skepticism, inherent worth of personality, continual artistic & scientific innovation,…
In short, the West is Promethean, unlike all other civilizations.
As far as Islamic Golden Age, it is true that from the 8th C to the 12th C much has been preserved (and later, expanded) from Greek heritage, but it includes only scientific (medicine, mathematics, astronomy,..) works & parts of philosophy, especially Aristotle & misattributed Plotinus.
The rest- no.
The Catholic West has, on the other hand, preserved (I’ll enumerate only a few authors from the Antiquity): Seneca, Tacitus, Virgil, parts of Plato, Horace, Cicero, Caesar, Lucretius, Boethius, Pliny the Elder,… , while in the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire both secular and religious pre-Christian texts have been copied & preserved: Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Athenian tragedians, Galen, Euclid, Epicurus, Herodotus, …
In both Christian cultural spheres visual arts’ works (busts, sculptures, paintings,…) have been cherished & influential.
https://i.postimg.cc/pVzRfS40/Map-of-Assyria.pngThe Greeks were different than its ME predecessors, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews in that it made dramatic advances (in logic and geometry till this day unmatched by the Chinese), but it doesn't take away that it had ME roots.Yes but at that point the Arab-speaking world (I used this term specifically because the primary persons were Persians not Arabs) were made at least equal progress as Europe in advancing Greco-Roman knowledgehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_EuropeReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Thea, @BB753
How about a two tier classification? For example, DNA and value system. Might yield “mixed Mediterranean-northern European DNA” and “Northern European value system.”
Mayyyyybe. I still have my doubts. We’ll see.
https://www.racket.news/p/move-over-jayson-blair-meet-hamilton
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619092005073592321
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029772977455105
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029780179075073
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029805957267457
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029812605243392
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029819584565249
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029826614218752
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029846025441280
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029851146682368
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029856293101568
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029862475505664
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029868007788544
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029872537649152
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029877767938048
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029885011509249
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029891017756672
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029899226021889
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029906498949122
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029913033658370
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029918503018496
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029926245703680
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029932650426369
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619030835495305216Replies: @Corvinus
Hello, Digital Harpo.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/12/twitter-files-explained-elon-musk-taibbi-weiss-hunter-biden-laptop.html
“For these reasons, the Twitter Files are best understood as an egregious example of the very phenomenon it purports to condemn — that of social-media managers leveraging their platforms for partisan ends.”
https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-states-government-pennsylvania-2022-midterm-elections-arizona-6ce58816a74a76c7ff97c64f8a4c85e9?taid=63d5ad43056e600001abac37&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/01/2016-us-election-outcome-russian-social-media-trolls/672836/
https://popular.info/p/twitter-cant-handle-the-truth
https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/has-twitter-had-a-far-right-bent?utm_source=twitter&sd=pf
On the other hand, Jews get a lot of milage out of being Jewish when it comes to special pleading and exercising a heckler's veto to break up expressions of social/community unity - i.e., you can't have an anodyne Protestant prayer in a public school because it will cause the faces of the two Jewish children in the school to melt off or something. In that sense it is a very negatively defined identity - those who stand in opposition to the normalization of Christianity in a nation that is 85%+ nominally Christian. They're the "not white American Christian" people who despite comprising 2% of your population get to declare the outlines of your law, culture and society so that it fits them comfortably.Replies: @New Dealer
Growing up on the West Coast in the 50s and 60s I never heard anything antisemitic from peers (a few unintelligible mutters from an occasional ancient – but no devoted antisemites), nothing said about Jews one way or another. I did hear, “Don’t Jew me down,” now and then, but sometimes someone would say you can’t say that and it faded out over time. I had no idea that my Jewish classmates in high school were Jewish. I didn’t know that people named Goldberg or Gruenbaum were Jewish. I didn’t know that Lenny Bruce was Jewish. Nor Al Capp (who daily caricatured my kind as subhuman), nor Jack Benny, Albert Einstein, Meyer Lansky. I wouldn’t have known that Woody Allen was Jewish, except that he said he was all the time. It took me till my 40s to fully cognize the category.
That’s why I get irked when fanatics like Jonathan Goldblatt or Jason Stanley promote such vicious stereotypes about majority Americans. To me, they sound like the malicious crank ranting in the beer hall.
Much later, I’ll never forget driving in a car to view Christmas lights with four liberal Jewish friends. It was dark and I was quiet. Trying to be funny, they said a good number of unkind things about Christians. Among my peers, I have never once heard anything unkind said by nonJews behind closed doors about Jews.
I wouldn't say that living in proximity to Jews breeds contempt, but it does breed awareness. You will be made aware that they're sharp in business - pay attention to the tomatoes they put in the bottom of the bag, etc. You push back vociferously and avoid getting stuck with half a bag of rotten tomatoes. But it's better in the long run for the Jews that people who live near them know their tricks, feel able to call out the tricks, and not get stuck over and over with rotten tomatoes. That way the minor conflicts tend not to ossify into deep seated resentments. For the most part, calling Jews out in that context would actually often lead to a knowing smile and more warm and fair dealing from both sides as trust was built over time. The problem is that at scale Jews can sell you whole bags of rotten tomatoes (or fraudulent securities) and then destroy your life when you state firmly that you don't want to pay for rotten tomatoes.
Jews are certainly white, because middle easterners are white. This has nothing to do with the way people 'feel' or how they would like reality to be: anthropologists determined it about 100 years ago when they realized that middle eastern skulls and teeth are nearly identical to Eueopeans.
Genetics only confirmed this 10 years ago when we finally realized that modern Europeans are gentically closer to middle easterners than they are to European hunter gatherers. 45-95% of European ancestry is from a middle eastern farming population that arrived from Anatolia. This popuoation was genetically extremely close to Arabs and Iranians, and the original Jews.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-781b5da9135edece81ef57466f55bd4b-lq
There's no doubt about it; either middle easterners are white, or Europeans aren't white. Scientifically illiterate nimrods don't get to make this call. Arabs who are tired of getting singled out by the TSA don't get to override the science. Europeans, even the English and the Germans, are mostly descended from middle easterners. It would be more accurate to call Europeans middle easterners; than to auestion the whiteness of middle easterners. Ironically, the original Europeans were darker than the middle easterners white people descend from, and most would never have been mistaken for "white".Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Simon in London, @Anonymous, @Dream, @Mike Tre, @neutral, @Yahya, @SFG, @anon, @Thea, @Ian Smith, @Alice in Wonderland
What a load of crap.
100 years ago Irish was considered a race and so was Italian, because that is exactly how ethnicity was referred to and recorded on census forms by the census takers. Heck, even Mexican was considered a race. Because back then, race meant ethnicity. The form asks directly for race or color. If you didn’t have an ethnicity that you wanted to put down, you could just put your color, that is literal skin color. Well, the census taker would put it down.
As for what people thought then, it was just a case of discrimination against other groups. There is no one whiter than an Irishman based on just looking at him. And culturally no one is more classically white European than the Italians whose culture was endlessly copied by all of Europe. Sure, Italians aren’t English. But they sure as hell are white.
This whole crap about, well back then they said Irish weren’t white is just media/ lib lies. Yeah, an Englishman would rather hire an Englishman, and a German, a German, rather than an Italian or an Irishman, but it is just bull that people didn’t consider the Irish and Italians to be white. And we shouldn’t be about credulously repeating their BS as though it were fact. The so called libs just want to generate an emotional response, such that we all go about saying everyone is the same and you should give no preference to your own. Meanwhile they certainly will be giving preference to their own. How else do you think academia got to be filled almost entirely with WHITE shit libs? They only hire their own. Is that because they think conservatives aren’t white? In fact as we go along, we find that even some of people of color in academia and activism are actually white shitlibs!!
Agree. But its anachronistic to speak of Ancient Greece as anything other a part-of and on the peripheral of Middle Eastern civilization centered in Mesopotamia,
The Greeks were different than its ME predecessors, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews in that it made dramatic advances (in logic and geometry till this day unmatched by the Chinese), but it doesn’t take away that it had ME roots.
Yes but at that point the Arab-speaking world (I used this term specifically because the primary persons were Persians not Arabs) were made at least equal progress as Europe in advancing Greco-Roman knowledge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
So Greece became evidently separate from all the ancient civilizations (Egypt, Iran,...).
As for Islamic contribution, it is true is was more advanced in the Islamic Golden Age (Indian-Arabic numeral system, Avicenna, Al-Khwarizmi,..), but this was a period when Islam was still not ossified & Christian West was at the lowest point of its existence. But, even then, legal, cultural and military foundations were laid down (hospitals, universities,..) & Roman and Greek heritage was alive and present in the Western world (how else to explain the growth of original thought in John Scot Eriugena, Guido d'Arezzo's system of musical notation and codification of legal system?). The West took off more creatively in the 13th-14th C period & there was no slacking anymore.Replies: @Yahya, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
In a nutshell: Greece's neighbors changed, not Greece herself. ( Other than the decline and fall of Byzantium and the rise of the Khalifate and later the Ottomans).Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
https://i.postimg.cc/pVzRfS40/Map-of-Assyria.pngThe Greeks were different than its ME predecessors, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews in that it made dramatic advances (in logic and geometry till this day unmatched by the Chinese), but it doesn't take away that it had ME roots.Yes but at that point the Arab-speaking world (I used this term specifically because the primary persons were Persians not Arabs) were made at least equal progress as Europe in advancing Greco-Roman knowledgehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_EuropeReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Thea, @BB753
Greece was, in these times, a part of the Mediterranean world, but then it became the foundation of the West. Greece had different social structure; they did not have divinely ordained kings nor a dominant priestly caste, as in all other civilizations. And they were primarily a naval people, which led them to contact other cultures & naturally led to skepticism and the development of critical thinking. Freedom of spirit and inquisitiveness are not born in situations where you have stable societies based on religious-cultural dogmas & unchangeable power structure.
So Greece became evidently separate from all the ancient civilizations (Egypt, Iran,…).
As for Islamic contribution, it is true is was more advanced in the Islamic Golden Age (Indian-Arabic numeral system, Avicenna, Al-Khwarizmi,..), but this was a period when Islam was still not ossified & Christian West was at the lowest point of its existence. But, even then, legal, cultural and military foundations were laid down (hospitals, universities,..) & Roman and Greek heritage was alive and present in the Western world (how else to explain the growth of original thought in John Scot Eriugena, Guido d’Arezzo’s system of musical notation and codification of legal system?). The West took off more creatively in the 13th-14th C period & there was no slacking anymore.
Protestant West > Catholic West > Catholic East > (if even included) Orthodox East > Islamic East
But in terms of "seniority", the ranking should be:
Pagan Greco-Roman > Christian Roman > Orthodox East > Catholic West/Islamic East > Protestant West
The Orthodox East clearly has more claims to seniority than the Protestant West. So does Islamic East.
If one day the Orthodox or Islamic East become core again, they are not allowed to just "eject" the Protestant West from its civilization history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NXdY-vq4CQReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Twinkie
That’s why I get irked when fanatics like Jonathan Goldblatt or Jason Stanley promote such vicious stereotypes about majority Americans. To me, they sound like the malicious crank ranting in the beer hall.
Much later, I’ll never forget driving in a car to view Christmas lights with four liberal Jewish friends. It was dark and I was quiet. Trying to be funny, they said a good number of unkind things about Christians. Among my peers, I have never once heard anything unkind said by nonJews behind closed doors about Jews.Replies: @Thea, @Alec Leamas (working from home)
I grew up in south Florida in the 80s and had the same experience. Often, I was surprised to learn someone I befriended was Jewish. This had no effect on our friendship. I never witnessed them being mistreated nor did they ever complain about it to me.
Where did their intense hatred for ordinary, working or middle class white Americans originate?
Well, for the US white working class I think a lot of that came from them not accepting the revolutionary fervor of these Jews, which became untenable for the latter during the Vietnam War. That's part of the New Left taking over, including the Democratic Party after 1968.
https://i.postimg.cc/pVzRfS40/Map-of-Assyria.pngThe Greeks were different than its ME predecessors, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews in that it made dramatic advances (in logic and geometry till this day unmatched by the Chinese), but it doesn't take away that it had ME roots.Yes but at that point the Arab-speaking world (I used this term specifically because the primary persons were Persians not Arabs) were made at least equal progress as Europe in advancing Greco-Roman knowledgehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_EuropeReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Thea, @BB753
There is a cultural difference between Mediterranean and Middle Eastern. That map fits more squarely with Eastern Mediterranean culture than say Arab or Persian culture which would be more definitively Middle Eastern.
That area collectively experienced the late Bronze Age collapse inn 1177BC oft-attributed to the arcane sea people but likely part of Turchin’s secular cycles.
At the time of your map and several centuries before that area had extensive trade links and those kingdoms exchanged ambassadors. Lots of cultural exchange in both directions and even further West to Southern Italy.
https://i.postimg.cc/pVzRfS40/Map-of-Assyria.pngThe Greeks were different than its ME predecessors, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews in that it made dramatic advances (in logic and geometry till this day unmatched by the Chinese), but it doesn't take away that it had ME roots.Yes but at that point the Arab-speaking world (I used this term specifically because the primary persons were Persians not Arabs) were made at least equal progress as Europe in advancing Greco-Roman knowledgehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_EuropeReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Thea, @BB753
You get it wrong. In those days Greece was a part of Europe that was in touch with a more advanced Middle-East compared to the imbalance which started in the late Middle -Ages in favor of Europe.
In a nutshell: Greece’s neighbors changed, not Greece herself. ( Other than the decline and fall of Byzantium and the rise of the Khalifate and later the Ottomans).
The Eastern Romans Romania still considered themselves to be Romans, only that their capital was Constantinople and their language was no longer Latin but Greek.
Francia, Romania, Arabia, each had legitimate claim as successor to Classical Greco-Roman civilization. Only that Francia later became core of the Modern West, Romania is now in the periphery, and Arabia not at all.Replies: @BB753
They would need to overturn some 100+ year old case law. Middleeasterners were suing to be considered white in california back in the early 1900s, and won a number of cases.
https://www.arabamericanhistory.org/archives/dept-of-justice-affirms-arab-race-in-1909/
A long, three book academic treatment of this, probably mostly in the first two books can be found in Kevin MacDonald’s trilogy, online at this site due to Amazon banning at least a couple of them. It was a big thing as soon as the ones from Eastern Europe immigrated here after the Civil War, many decades before the Nazi excuse/justification.
Well, for the US white working class I think a lot of that came from them not accepting the revolutionary fervor of these Jews, which became untenable for the latter during the Vietnam War. That’s part of the New Left taking over, including the Democratic Party after 1968.
That’s why I get irked when fanatics like Jonathan Goldblatt or Jason Stanley promote such vicious stereotypes about majority Americans. To me, they sound like the malicious crank ranting in the beer hall.
Much later, I’ll never forget driving in a car to view Christmas lights with four liberal Jewish friends. It was dark and I was quiet. Trying to be funny, they said a good number of unkind things about Christians. Among my peers, I have never once heard anything unkind said by nonJews behind closed doors about Jews.Replies: @Thea, @Alec Leamas (working from home)
In East Coast cities until relatively recently it was somewhat important to tell on sight or by name who was an Italian, a Pole, etc. where neighborhoods were still segregated by ethnicity. Naturally, in this context Jews are quite obvious. There’s a short documentary film from 1974 called Italianamerican by Scorsese which is basically his two parents being filmed conversing with him about their pasts. At one point the elder Scorsese starts complaining about “the Irish” and his wife quiets him down before he says too much and she smooths things over by being conciliatory and saying something along the lines of “eventually we all got along.” That kind of ethnic consciousness is something that people who were not raised in it find inscrutable.
I wouldn’t say that living in proximity to Jews breeds contempt, but it does breed awareness. You will be made aware that they’re sharp in business – pay attention to the tomatoes they put in the bottom of the bag, etc. You push back vociferously and avoid getting stuck with half a bag of rotten tomatoes. But it’s better in the long run for the Jews that people who live near them know their tricks, feel able to call out the tricks, and not get stuck over and over with rotten tomatoes. That way the minor conflicts tend not to ossify into deep seated resentments. For the most part, calling Jews out in that context would actually often lead to a knowing smile and more warm and fair dealing from both sides as trust was built over time. The problem is that at scale Jews can sell you whole bags of rotten tomatoes (or fraudulent securities) and then destroy your life when you state firmly that you don’t want to pay for rotten tomatoes.
Absolutely.
So Greece became evidently separate from all the ancient civilizations (Egypt, Iran,...).
As for Islamic contribution, it is true is was more advanced in the Islamic Golden Age (Indian-Arabic numeral system, Avicenna, Al-Khwarizmi,..), but this was a period when Islam was still not ossified & Christian West was at the lowest point of its existence. But, even then, legal, cultural and military foundations were laid down (hospitals, universities,..) & Roman and Greek heritage was alive and present in the Western world (how else to explain the growth of original thought in John Scot Eriugena, Guido d'Arezzo's system of musical notation and codification of legal system?). The West took off more creatively in the 13th-14th C period & there was no slacking anymore.Replies: @Yahya, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
Bardon, you are too attached to the notion of a coherent and consistent ethno-cultural block called “the West”, which previously you said was basically synonymous with Europe. All this makes you elude the obvious; which is that Ancient Greece during its period (not ours) was part of the Near Eastern political-military-cultural complex. It is true that Ancient Greece was exceptional and pioneered many civilizational elements that made it somewhat distinct from say Egypt or Mesopotamia. But the interactions between Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece was extensive (philosophy, religion, literature, writing etc.); certainly moreso than with any European locality. Saying Ancient Greece was “Western” or “European” is nothing but anachronistic retconning to serve ideological purposes of certain Northern Europeans who feel ashamed at having been mere uncivilized barbarians with little contact with the civilized world at the time but to serve as slaves and cannon fodder.
You bring up similarities between the modern West and Ancient Greece; but you also ignore the deep dissimilarities; like the fact that Ancient Greece was a slave-based society; one where kinship ties were paramount; the patriarch ruled supreme; and Paganism the order of the day – not monotheistic Christianity.
You also miss the fact that Greeks, for 95% of their history; were basically scattered around the Near East and contributed to the civilization there as opposed to somewhere in Germany or Denmark. Basically; look at any map from the ancient period till 1950 and you’ll find Greece and Greeks lumped alongside Anatolia, Egypt and Levant; not England, France, Germany.
In my country the Greek presence lasted until 1950 when Nasser booted them out alongside most foreigners. But previously many of them had regarded Egypt as their second home; and were instrumental in building up the capital base of the country.
Modern Greece is more “Western” than it has ever been; but even still many Greeks are ambivalent about their status as a “Western” nation. Watch this interview of eminent composer Mikis Theodorakis talk resentfully about “Franks” (always referring to Northwestern Europeans as “them” and never “us”) and how they “took everything from Greece; democracy, geometry drama, philosophy, theatre” but fail to give Greeks the respect they are due:
Basically; Northwestern Europeans have successfully appropriated Ancient Greece to the extent where even modern Greeks are feeling aggrieved of having been looped out of their ancestors achievements. It is retconning of history plain and simple; Greece was never Western until a group of Northwestern Europeans took it upon themselves to make it so; and convince everyone that it was always so.
Secularism
individualism
democracy
no priestly class
rational spirit
spirit of innovation.
There is not much to add:
https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1225
Civilization: The Six Ways the West Beat the RestReplies: @Yahya, @Twinkie
Basically, Greeks founded the West:
Secularism
individualism
democracy
no priestly class
rational spirit
spirit of innovation.
There is not much to add:
https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1225
Civilization: The Six Ways the West Beat the Rest
Ancient Greeks, secularists? Individualists? Is this a joke? Socrates was condemned for impiety!
The Greek way of war, waged mainly with the infantry phalanx, which the Rennaissance-era Europeans revived and adopted with modern weaponry, was based on a high degree of cohesion and communitarianism, in which there was life-and-death mutual dependence among the soldiery. Indeed, the pinnacle of that method, exemplified by the Spartan Peers, supposedly based on the laws created by Lycurgus, was that of a militarist, totalitarian dictatorship.
Now some Ancient Greeks genuinely practiced democracy, but that democracy was not much like what we today consider to be democracy (in the way that the Persian "King of Kings" Cyrus the Great's policies are said to the first forerunner of "international human rights," but were nothing of the sort).
And the Greeks were not uniquely rational or innovative, though indeed they underwent a period of a large burst of excellence.
Be that as it may, none of this was the domain of the ancient Europeans farther west, the Celts and the Germanic peoples who were, in comparison to the civilizations of the Mediterranean, primitive savages. When they started to enter into the periphery of the Roman Empire, because of the expansion of the latter, they began to assimilate into Romanitas, a process that accelerated as the empire collapsed in the West and they began to descend upon the carcass of the empire like so many locusts.
Just as Christians are spiritual Jews in a way, today's Europeans, particularly the politically, economically, and militarily dominant Western and Central Europeans, are the spiritual heirs of Ancient Greece and Rome, not a biological one. And as the other commenter put it, the notion of "the West" originating in ancient Eastern Mediterranean is purely "retconning" by the people who came to dominate Europea (and the world) later.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
No, Christianity teaches that all people of all races can be saved. Judaism exists to serve the Jewish people.
A lot of Whites disagree with me. Many Whites work to actively undermine Whites. Some do it as much as Jews do.
Red herring. I was talking about morality, not salvation. Jews are instructed to act in a manner similar to Christians as to how to treat people.
“A lot of Whites disagree with me. Many Whites work to actively undermine Whites. Some do it as much as Jews do.”
Yes or no—are they anti-whites?
Yes or no—must all whites adhere to your pro-white policy?
What is anti-white by the way? How would you define it? Does it mean a white person can’t be friends with a non white lest they be anti white? How about sell them properly? How about marriage or sire offspring?Replies: @Frankie P, @Roger
Secularism
individualism
democracy
no priestly class
rational spirit
spirit of innovation.
There is not much to add:
https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1225
Civilization: The Six Ways the West Beat the RestReplies: @Yahya, @Twinkie
Call me when you find an Ancient Greek text mentioning “the West” in the context you are using it.
That was a very good review article; I agreed with everything he said except the part where he – like you – categorically states that Ancient Greece was Western; without bothering to back up his ahistorical, anachronistic assertion with concrete evidence.
Western culture
The boomers who comment here are delusional and will go down with the ship(and it's going down fast) of claiming that Asian and African brown people are "white." No one outside of conservative online boomers sees it that way. A lot of the people around this blog have become the kind of dishonest, agenda pushing liars that they bashing 2o years ago.
BTW, boomers, the Supreme Court ruled back in the old bad days that Arab Muslims are "not white." Legally, MENA people mostly were always considered not white in America. Limited exceptions were made for some small groups of Christians and Jews. Indian hindus were also ruled categorically "not white" by the SC.
So boomers who say "MENA people were always considered white" are lying. No they were not. That's why there was no Arab or Iranian muslim immigration until recently. They sent the non-white MENA Arab Muslims, Turks and Iranians back when they came on ships. The US gov't officials told these people to their faces "you are not white, back on the boat."Replies: @Yahya
It would be good for white Europeans. That’s what matters. We need to know how many of the “white” people in America are European and how many are Middle Eastern, North African etc.
The real “white” share of the population is considerably lower than the “white” share from the census. We need to know by how much or we won’t even know if real European people are a minority or not.
https://twitter.com/datepsych/status/1616214859649007618?s=20&t=OPS2cMOms82sEwmqhF9NbAReplies: @Twinkie, @Alice in Wonderland
I wonder what fraction white is the average hispanic. 80%? 90%?
Some historians regard Western Civilization as something new that emerged in the Dark Ages with no direct continuity to ancient Greece and Rome.
"The Dark Ages" didn't last very long and soon the Western Europeans developed a vibrant and vigorous culture that became the hallmark of the late medieval period (during which, for example, the Catholic Church sponsored the foundation of many renowned universities) that led to the foundation of the modern world.Replies: @Corvinus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
Western culture
Secularism
individualism
democracy
no priestly class
rational spirit
spirit of innovation.
There is not much to add:
https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1225
Civilization: The Six Ways the West Beat the RestReplies: @Yahya, @Twinkie
Much of this is retconning by the so-called Enlightenment secularists.
Ancient Greeks, secularists? Individualists? Is this a joke? Socrates was condemned for impiety!
The Greek way of war, waged mainly with the infantry phalanx, which the Rennaissance-era Europeans revived and adopted with modern weaponry, was based on a high degree of cohesion and communitarianism, in which there was life-and-death mutual dependence among the soldiery. Indeed, the pinnacle of that method, exemplified by the Spartan Peers, supposedly based on the laws created by Lycurgus, was that of a militarist, totalitarian dictatorship.
Now some Ancient Greeks genuinely practiced democracy, but that democracy was not much like what we today consider to be democracy (in the way that the Persian “King of Kings” Cyrus the Great’s policies are said to the first forerunner of “international human rights,” but were nothing of the sort).
And the Greeks were not uniquely rational or innovative, though indeed they underwent a period of a large burst of excellence.
Be that as it may, none of this was the domain of the ancient Europeans farther west, the Celts and the Germanic peoples who were, in comparison to the civilizations of the Mediterranean, primitive savages. When they started to enter into the periphery of the Roman Empire, because of the expansion of the latter, they began to assimilate into Romanitas, a process that accelerated as the empire collapsed in the West and they began to descend upon the carcass of the empire like so many locusts.
Just as Christians are spiritual Jews in a way, today’s Europeans, particularly the politically, economically, and militarily dominant Western and Central Europeans, are the spiritual heirs of Ancient Greece and Rome, not a biological one. And as the other commenter put it, the notion of “the West” originating in ancient Eastern Mediterranean is purely “retconning” by the people who came to dominate Europea (and the world) later.
Bertand Russell put it concisely in his "A History of Western Philosophy" & "Wisdom of the West":
https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecsiuotnbeahqnn4newuvtpmq6fvj4wbe6txk7rkjrpwltnhf7cyg?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20A%20History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy-Touchstone%20%281967%29.pdfhttps://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacedkdh6u7wxtaar2wlemehf3rgs7k2zgv6ywfwu75bhnhu6gj7jm2q?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Wisdom%20Of%20The%20West-Crescent%20%281988%29.pdf
Among the civilisations of the world the Greek is a late comer. Those of Egypt and Mesopotamia are older by several millennia. These agricultural societies grew up along the great rivers and were ruled by divine kings, a military aristocracy and a powerful class of priests who presided over the elaborate polytheistic religious systems. The bulk of the population was serfs who worked the land.Both Egypt and Babylonia furnished some knowledge which the Greeks later took over. But neither developed science or philosophy. Whether this is due to lack of native genius or to social conditions is not a fruitful question here, both no doubt played their part. What is significant is that the function of religion was not conducive to the exercise of intellectual adventure.
.................................................................................................
But the more primitive elements surveyed even in the Orphic tradition. They are indeed the source of Greek tragedy. There, sympathy lies always on the side of those who are tossed by violent emotions
and passions. Aristotle rightly speaks of tragedy as a catharsis, or purging of the emotions. In the end it is this twofold aspect of the Greek character which enabled it, once and for all, to transform the world. Nietzsche called these two elements the Apollonian and the Dionysiac. Neither alone could have brought forth the extraordinary explosion of Greek culture. In the East, the mystical element reigned supreme. What saved the Greeks from falling under its sole spell was the rise of the scientific schools of Ionia. But serenity on its own is just as incapable as mysticism of causing an intellectual revolution. What is needed is a passionate search for truth and beauty. It seems that the Orphic influence provided just that conception. Philosophy, to Socrates, is a way of life. It is worth remembering that the Greek word 'theory' first meant something like sight-seeing'. Herodotus uses it in this sense. A lively curiosity, bent on passionate yet disinterested inquiry, this is what gives the ancient Greeks their unique place in history.
The civilisation of the West, which has sprung from Greek sources,
is based on a philosophic and scientific tradition that began in Miletus two and a half thousand years ago. In this it differs from the other great civilisations of the world. The leading notion that runs through Greek philosophy is the logos. It is a term that connotes, amongst
other things, word' and 'measure'. Thus, philosophic discourse and scientific inquiry are closely linked. The ethical doctrine that arises from this connection sees the good in knowledge, which is the issue of disinterested inquiry.
....................................................................
The philosophic tradition of Greece is essentially a movement of enlightenment and liberation. For it aims at freeing the mind from the bonds of ignorance. It removes the fear of the unknown by
presenting the world as something accessible to reason. Its vehicle is the logos and its aspiration the pursuit of knowledge under the form of the Good. Disinterested enquiry is itself regarded as ethically good; through it. rather than through religious mysteries, do men achieve the good life. Along with the tradition of enquiry we find a certain cheerful outlook devoid of false sentiment. For Socrates, the unexamined fife is not worth living. Aristotle holds that what is important is not to live long but to live well. Some of this freshness, it is true, is lost in hellenistic and Roman times, when a somewhat more selfconscious stoicism gains ground. It remains none the less that all that is best in the intellectual framework of Western civilisation goes back to the traditions of the thinkers of Greece.Replies: @Yahya, @Bardon Kaldian
This is highly inflected by anti-Christians. In reality, although long distance trade and material living standards declined significantly in the period after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (which is to be expected when warlords and their armies overrun cities and towns), there was also much political, religious, and cultural continuity maintained by the Catholic Church (in much of Western and Central Europe, the Catholic Church parishes are simply the remnants of the Roman administrative divisions).
“The Dark Ages” didn’t last very long and soon the Western Europeans developed a vibrant and vigorous culture that became the hallmark of the late medieval period (during which, for example, the Catholic Church sponsored the foundation of many renowned universities) that led to the foundation of the modern world.
With a tremendous boost from the Muslim world as well as the influx of Chinese trade.
Ancient Greeks, secularists? Individualists? Is this a joke? Socrates was condemned for impiety!
The Greek way of war, waged mainly with the infantry phalanx, which the Rennaissance-era Europeans revived and adopted with modern weaponry, was based on a high degree of cohesion and communitarianism, in which there was life-and-death mutual dependence among the soldiery. Indeed, the pinnacle of that method, exemplified by the Spartan Peers, supposedly based on the laws created by Lycurgus, was that of a militarist, totalitarian dictatorship.
Now some Ancient Greeks genuinely practiced democracy, but that democracy was not much like what we today consider to be democracy (in the way that the Persian "King of Kings" Cyrus the Great's policies are said to the first forerunner of "international human rights," but were nothing of the sort).
And the Greeks were not uniquely rational or innovative, though indeed they underwent a period of a large burst of excellence.
Be that as it may, none of this was the domain of the ancient Europeans farther west, the Celts and the Germanic peoples who were, in comparison to the civilizations of the Mediterranean, primitive savages. When they started to enter into the periphery of the Roman Empire, because of the expansion of the latter, they began to assimilate into Romanitas, a process that accelerated as the empire collapsed in the West and they began to descend upon the carcass of the empire like so many locusts.
Just as Christians are spiritual Jews in a way, today's Europeans, particularly the politically, economically, and militarily dominant Western and Central Europeans, are the spiritual heirs of Ancient Greece and Rome, not a biological one. And as the other commenter put it, the notion of "the West" originating in ancient Eastern Mediterranean is purely "retconning" by the people who came to dominate Europea (and the world) later.Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
This is simply a wrong way of thinking, not seeing the forest for the trees.
Bertand Russell put it concisely in his “A History of Western Philosophy” & “Wisdom of the West”:
https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecsiuotnbeahqnn4newuvtpmq6fvj4wbe6txk7rkjrpwltnhf7cyg?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20A%20History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy-Touchstone%20%281967%29.pdf
https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacedkdh6u7wxtaar2wlemehf3rgs7k2zgv6ywfwu75bhnhu6gj7jm2q?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Wisdom%20Of%20The%20West-Crescent%20%281988%29.pdf
Among the civilisations of the world the Greek is a late comer. Those of Egypt and Mesopotamia are older by several millennia. These agricultural societies grew up along the great rivers and were ruled by divine kings, a military aristocracy and a powerful class of priests who presided over the elaborate polytheistic religious systems. The bulk of the population was serfs who worked the land.
Both Egypt and Babylonia furnished some knowledge which the Greeks later took over. But neither developed science or philosophy. Whether this is due to lack of native genius or to social conditions is not a fruitful question here, both no doubt played their part. What is significant is that the function of religion was not conducive to the exercise of intellectual adventure.
…………………………………………………………………………………….
But the more primitive elements surveyed even in the Orphic tradition. They are indeed the source of Greek tragedy. There, sympathy lies always on the side of those who are tossed by violent emotions
and passions. Aristotle rightly speaks of tragedy as a catharsis, or purging of the emotions. In the end it is this twofold aspect of the Greek character which enabled it, once and for all, to transform the world. Nietzsche called these two elements the Apollonian and the Dionysiac. Neither alone could have brought forth the extraordinary explosion of Greek culture. In the East, the mystical element reigned supreme. What saved the Greeks from falling under its sole spell was the rise of the scientific schools of Ionia. But serenity on its own is just as incapable as mysticism of causing an intellectual revolution. What is needed is a passionate search for truth and beauty. It seems that the Orphic influence provided just that conception. Philosophy, to Socrates, is a way of life. It is worth remembering that the Greek word ‘theory’ first meant something like sight-seeing’. Herodotus uses it in this sense. A lively curiosity, bent on passionate yet disinterested inquiry, this is what gives the ancient Greeks their unique place in history.
The civilisation of the West, which has sprung from Greek sources,
is based on a philosophic and scientific tradition that began in Miletus two and a half thousand years ago. In this it differs from the other great civilisations of the world. The leading notion that runs through Greek philosophy is the logos. It is a term that connotes, amongst
other things, word’ and ‘measure’. Thus, philosophic discourse and scientific inquiry are closely linked. The ethical doctrine that arises from this connection sees the good in knowledge, which is the issue of disinterested inquiry.
…………………………………………………………..
The philosophic tradition of Greece is essentially a movement of enlightenment and liberation. For it aims at freeing the mind from the bonds of ignorance. It removes the fear of the unknown by
presenting the world as something accessible to reason. Its vehicle is the logos and its aspiration the pursuit of knowledge under the form of the Good. Disinterested enquiry is itself regarded as ethically good; through it. rather than through religious mysteries, do men achieve the good life. Along with the tradition of enquiry we find a certain cheerful outlook devoid of false sentiment. For Socrates, the unexamined fife is not worth living. Aristotle holds that what is important is not to live long but to live well. Some of this freshness, it is true, is lost in hellenistic and Roman times, when a somewhat more selfconscious stoicism gains ground. It remains none the less that all that is best in the intellectual framework of Western civilisation goes back to the traditions of the thinkers of Greece.
I don't think you are capable of a qualified discussion. Just to repeat:
Some of the prerequisites for a qualified discussion are:
1. one has to possess a degree of detachment. If you’re emotionally too involved with the issue, you cannot participate in a qualified discussion. Being too involved frequently – not necessarily- means using ad hominem “arguments”, which is a waste of time.
2. one has to have knowledge of the field discussed. If you’re not informed, better stay out of it. In many cases, being informed means having absorbed the essential info on the topic.
3. one has to possess analytic-synthetic ability or logical culture (I don’t know how else to put it). If you’re mostly imaginative/freely associating type, better leave it to others (not that imagination is bad, it is great, but without logic it just creates muddle)
4. you have to have the ability to listen, ponder on others’ arguments (if they’re worth it) & not just preach your cause. If not, this is not a discussion. It is, on your part, a sermon.
There must be a few other points, but the above mentioned are basics of qualified discussion culture.
Bertand Russell put it concisely in his "A History of Western Philosophy" & "Wisdom of the West":
https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecsiuotnbeahqnn4newuvtpmq6fvj4wbe6txk7rkjrpwltnhf7cyg?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20A%20History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy-Touchstone%20%281967%29.pdfhttps://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacedkdh6u7wxtaar2wlemehf3rgs7k2zgv6ywfwu75bhnhu6gj7jm2q?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Wisdom%20Of%20The%20West-Crescent%20%281988%29.pdf
Among the civilisations of the world the Greek is a late comer. Those of Egypt and Mesopotamia are older by several millennia. These agricultural societies grew up along the great rivers and were ruled by divine kings, a military aristocracy and a powerful class of priests who presided over the elaborate polytheistic religious systems. The bulk of the population was serfs who worked the land.Both Egypt and Babylonia furnished some knowledge which the Greeks later took over. But neither developed science or philosophy. Whether this is due to lack of native genius or to social conditions is not a fruitful question here, both no doubt played their part. What is significant is that the function of religion was not conducive to the exercise of intellectual adventure.
.................................................................................................
But the more primitive elements surveyed even in the Orphic tradition. They are indeed the source of Greek tragedy. There, sympathy lies always on the side of those who are tossed by violent emotions
and passions. Aristotle rightly speaks of tragedy as a catharsis, or purging of the emotions. In the end it is this twofold aspect of the Greek character which enabled it, once and for all, to transform the world. Nietzsche called these two elements the Apollonian and the Dionysiac. Neither alone could have brought forth the extraordinary explosion of Greek culture. In the East, the mystical element reigned supreme. What saved the Greeks from falling under its sole spell was the rise of the scientific schools of Ionia. But serenity on its own is just as incapable as mysticism of causing an intellectual revolution. What is needed is a passionate search for truth and beauty. It seems that the Orphic influence provided just that conception. Philosophy, to Socrates, is a way of life. It is worth remembering that the Greek word 'theory' first meant something like sight-seeing'. Herodotus uses it in this sense. A lively curiosity, bent on passionate yet disinterested inquiry, this is what gives the ancient Greeks their unique place in history.
The civilisation of the West, which has sprung from Greek sources,
is based on a philosophic and scientific tradition that began in Miletus two and a half thousand years ago. In this it differs from the other great civilisations of the world. The leading notion that runs through Greek philosophy is the logos. It is a term that connotes, amongst
other things, word' and 'measure'. Thus, philosophic discourse and scientific inquiry are closely linked. The ethical doctrine that arises from this connection sees the good in knowledge, which is the issue of disinterested inquiry.
....................................................................
The philosophic tradition of Greece is essentially a movement of enlightenment and liberation. For it aims at freeing the mind from the bonds of ignorance. It removes the fear of the unknown by
presenting the world as something accessible to reason. Its vehicle is the logos and its aspiration the pursuit of knowledge under the form of the Good. Disinterested enquiry is itself regarded as ethically good; through it. rather than through religious mysteries, do men achieve the good life. Along with the tradition of enquiry we find a certain cheerful outlook devoid of false sentiment. For Socrates, the unexamined fife is not worth living. Aristotle holds that what is important is not to live long but to live well. Some of this freshness, it is true, is lost in hellenistic and Roman times, when a somewhat more selfconscious stoicism gains ground. It remains none the less that all that is best in the intellectual framework of Western civilisation goes back to the traditions of the thinkers of Greece.Replies: @Yahya, @Bardon Kaldian
It’s funny you mention Bertrand Russell’s History Of Western Philosophy; because he also makes the following statements in the book:
—————
Babylon & Greece – Science.
—————
Egypt, Phoenicia, Greece – Writing.
—————
Egypt and Greece – Trade.
—————
Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece – Science , Philosophy & Geometry.
—————
But he wrote no word of an Ancient Greek connection with the Germanic/Celtic/Slavic tribes of the time.
I wonder why that is.
On the other hand- your entire world-view is wrong (at least when it comes to discussing a topic).Replies: @Yahya
“No, Christianity teaches that all people of all races can be saved. Judaism exists to serve the Jewish people”
Red herring. I was talking about morality, not salvation. Jews are instructed to act in a manner similar to Christians as to how to treat people.
“A lot of Whites disagree with me. Many Whites work to actively undermine Whites. Some do it as much as Jews do.”
Yes or no—are they anti-whites?
Yes or no—must all whites adhere to your pro-white policy?
What is anti-white by the way? How would you define it? Does it mean a white person can’t be friends with a non white lest they be anti white? How about sell them properly? How about marriage or sire offspring?
"I was talking about morality, not salvation."
Let me give you a hint. Most Christians believe that they receive salvation because of their moral behavior during life. It informs their worldview and everyday actions. At least that is the goal; as all humans are imperfect and stray from the correct road, Christians, like other peoples, do wrong and behave immorally.
This objective or goal of moral righteousness is the foundation of Christianity in the interest of all men (sorry, you have forgotten that "all men" means all humanity, so I must remind you), and all men are welcome to join the faith, the journey to an improved life, trying to achieve the impossible task of being like the teacher (Jesus). This illuminates Christianity.
Judiasm, on the other hand, is informed by behavior designed to benefit one small sliver, a tiny group, of humans: the Jews. It doesn't matter if the Jew is a headbanging Talmudic scholar or a secular Jew living in Brooklyn, his culture and foundation has been built on a belief that he and his people are superior, and that his behavior towards other humans does not have to reach the standards of his treatment of other Jews. Worse yet, he has been trained and inclucated with the belief that the goy are an ever-present danger, genetically designed to display "anti-semitism" at any time, without any stimulation, irrationally. It is a sad and horrifying situation, and I thank God that I have not been dealt this terrible hand. To walk around the Earth believing that most of the other humans hate you and could suddenly attack you must be a nightmare.
On the other hand, Jews who find the strength to question and refuse to accept the narrative about the goys often become some of most enlightened folks in the world. Others, like Ron Unz, were never really culturally trained and taught these things about Jews and goys, so they end up identifying more as citizens of their nations (Ron Unz seems to be a proud American who is concerned about his country) than by their ethnicity.
"The Dark Ages" didn't last very long and soon the Western Europeans developed a vibrant and vigorous culture that became the hallmark of the late medieval period (during which, for example, the Catholic Church sponsored the foundation of many renowned universities) that led to the foundation of the modern world.Replies: @Corvinus
“The Dark Ages” didn’t last very long and soon the Western Europeans developed a vibrant and vigorous culture that became the hallmark of the late medieval period (during which, for example, the Catholic Church sponsored the foundation of many renowned universities) that led to the foundation of the modern world”
With a tremendous boost from the Muslim world as well as the influx of Chinese trade.
Bertand Russell put it concisely in his "A History of Western Philosophy" & "Wisdom of the West":
https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecsiuotnbeahqnn4newuvtpmq6fvj4wbe6txk7rkjrpwltnhf7cyg?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20A%20History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy-Touchstone%20%281967%29.pdfhttps://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacedkdh6u7wxtaar2wlemehf3rgs7k2zgv6ywfwu75bhnhu6gj7jm2q?filename=Bertrand%20Russell%20-%20Wisdom%20Of%20The%20West-Crescent%20%281988%29.pdf
Among the civilisations of the world the Greek is a late comer. Those of Egypt and Mesopotamia are older by several millennia. These agricultural societies grew up along the great rivers and were ruled by divine kings, a military aristocracy and a powerful class of priests who presided over the elaborate polytheistic religious systems. The bulk of the population was serfs who worked the land.Both Egypt and Babylonia furnished some knowledge which the Greeks later took over. But neither developed science or philosophy. Whether this is due to lack of native genius or to social conditions is not a fruitful question here, both no doubt played their part. What is significant is that the function of religion was not conducive to the exercise of intellectual adventure.
.................................................................................................
But the more primitive elements surveyed even in the Orphic tradition. They are indeed the source of Greek tragedy. There, sympathy lies always on the side of those who are tossed by violent emotions
and passions. Aristotle rightly speaks of tragedy as a catharsis, or purging of the emotions. In the end it is this twofold aspect of the Greek character which enabled it, once and for all, to transform the world. Nietzsche called these two elements the Apollonian and the Dionysiac. Neither alone could have brought forth the extraordinary explosion of Greek culture. In the East, the mystical element reigned supreme. What saved the Greeks from falling under its sole spell was the rise of the scientific schools of Ionia. But serenity on its own is just as incapable as mysticism of causing an intellectual revolution. What is needed is a passionate search for truth and beauty. It seems that the Orphic influence provided just that conception. Philosophy, to Socrates, is a way of life. It is worth remembering that the Greek word 'theory' first meant something like sight-seeing'. Herodotus uses it in this sense. A lively curiosity, bent on passionate yet disinterested inquiry, this is what gives the ancient Greeks their unique place in history.
The civilisation of the West, which has sprung from Greek sources,
is based on a philosophic and scientific tradition that began in Miletus two and a half thousand years ago. In this it differs from the other great civilisations of the world. The leading notion that runs through Greek philosophy is the logos. It is a term that connotes, amongst
other things, word' and 'measure'. Thus, philosophic discourse and scientific inquiry are closely linked. The ethical doctrine that arises from this connection sees the good in knowledge, which is the issue of disinterested inquiry.
....................................................................
The philosophic tradition of Greece is essentially a movement of enlightenment and liberation. For it aims at freeing the mind from the bonds of ignorance. It removes the fear of the unknown by
presenting the world as something accessible to reason. Its vehicle is the logos and its aspiration the pursuit of knowledge under the form of the Good. Disinterested enquiry is itself regarded as ethically good; through it. rather than through religious mysteries, do men achieve the good life. Along with the tradition of enquiry we find a certain cheerful outlook devoid of false sentiment. For Socrates, the unexamined fife is not worth living. Aristotle holds that what is important is not to live long but to live well. Some of this freshness, it is true, is lost in hellenistic and Roman times, when a somewhat more selfconscious stoicism gains ground. It remains none the less that all that is best in the intellectual framework of Western civilisation goes back to the traditions of the thinkers of Greece.Replies: @Yahya, @Bardon Kaldian
And? Nobody said that there were no older civilizations. But they did not produce what the Western civilization, i.e. Greece, created (free individual, secularism, individualism, democracy, non-dogmatic thinking & art, ..).
I don’t think you are capable of a qualified discussion. Just to repeat:
Some of the prerequisites for a qualified discussion are:
1. one has to possess a degree of detachment. If you’re emotionally too involved with the issue, you cannot participate in a qualified discussion. Being too involved frequently – not necessarily- means using ad hominem “arguments”, which is a waste of time.
2. one has to have knowledge of the field discussed. If you’re not informed, better stay out of it. In many cases, being informed means having absorbed the essential info on the topic.
3. one has to possess analytic-synthetic ability or logical culture (I don’t know how else to put it). If you’re mostly imaginative/freely associating type, better leave it to others (not that imagination is bad, it is great, but without logic it just creates muddle)
4. you have to have the ability to listen, ponder on others’ arguments (if they’re worth it) & not just preach your cause. If not, this is not a discussion. It is, on your part, a sermon.
There must be a few other points, but the above mentioned are basics of qualified discussion culture.
Many MENA people are FURIOUS at the idea that the won’t get counted as white anymore and won’t get to parasite off of us while keeping their own exclusive cultural spaces we real white people are not welcome in. This Ya-Ya clown is freaking out at the idea that white Europeans dare have a sense of identity that doesn’t include brown people from Africa and Asia. But when we aren’t listening, all the MENA people like him call us “white bread” and claim we are savages who stole our culture from them. MENA people have the same kind of racial and cultural hate towards white people as black Africans do. It even takes the same pathetic tone of begging to be accepted by us while denigrating us at the same time.
The boomers who comment here are delusional and will go down with the ship(and it’s going down fast) of claiming that Asian and African brown people are “white.” No one outside of conservative online boomers sees it that way. A lot of the people around this blog have become the kind of dishonest, agenda pushing liars that they bashing 2o years ago.
BTW, boomers, the Supreme Court ruled back in the old bad days that Arab Muslims are “not white.” Legally, MENA people mostly were always considered not white in America. Limited exceptions were made for some small groups of Christians and Jews. Indian hindus were also ruled categorically “not white” by the SC.
So boomers who say “MENA people were always considered white” are lying. No they were not. That’s why there was no Arab or Iranian muslim immigration until recently. They sent the non-white MENA Arab Muslims, Turks and Iranians back when they came on ships. The US gov’t officials told these people to their faces “you are not white, back on the boat.”
The boomers who comment here are delusional and will go down with the ship(and it's going down fast) of claiming that Asian and African brown people are "white." No one outside of conservative online boomers sees it that way. A lot of the people around this blog have become the kind of dishonest, agenda pushing liars that they bashing 2o years ago.
BTW, boomers, the Supreme Court ruled back in the old bad days that Arab Muslims are "not white." Legally, MENA people mostly were always considered not white in America. Limited exceptions were made for some small groups of Christians and Jews. Indian hindus were also ruled categorically "not white" by the SC.
So boomers who say "MENA people were always considered white" are lying. No they were not. That's why there was no Arab or Iranian muslim immigration until recently. They sent the non-white MENA Arab Muslims, Turks and Iranians back when they came on ships. The US gov't officials told these people to their faces "you are not white, back on the boat."Replies: @Yahya
Chip on your shoulder much?
Sure, Eastern Mediterranean to be precise. The Fertile Crescent and Nile Valley, are two Cradles of Civilization, that Persia and Greece derived from. The Arabs came much later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Single_or_multiple_cradles
Greece can be said to be the Cradle of Western Civilization. But itself is not a Cradle of civilization.
In a nutshell: Greece's neighbors changed, not Greece herself. ( Other than the decline and fall of Byzantium and the rise of the Khalifate and later the Ottomans).Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
The Greeks and Romans certainly didn’t consider themselves to be European. Europe as a concept coalesced after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire at the time of Charlemagne. The now disused term is Francia, “Kingdom of the Franks” that was Catholic and used Latin.
The Eastern Romans Romania still considered themselves to be Romans, only that their capital was Constantinople and their language was no longer Latin but Greek.
Francia, Romania, Arabia, each had legitimate claim as successor to Classical Greco-Roman civilization. Only that Francia later became core of the Modern West, Romania is now in the periphery, and Arabia not at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_EmpireReplies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
So Greece became evidently separate from all the ancient civilizations (Egypt, Iran,...).
As for Islamic contribution, it is true is was more advanced in the Islamic Golden Age (Indian-Arabic numeral system, Avicenna, Al-Khwarizmi,..), but this was a period when Islam was still not ossified & Christian West was at the lowest point of its existence. But, even then, legal, cultural and military foundations were laid down (hospitals, universities,..) & Roman and Greek heritage was alive and present in the Western world (how else to explain the growth of original thought in John Scot Eriugena, Guido d'Arezzo's system of musical notation and codification of legal system?). The West took off more creatively in the 13th-14th C period & there was no slacking anymore.Replies: @Yahya, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
If you rank from core to periphery of what is the modern West, it should be:
Protestant West > Catholic West > Catholic East > (if even included) Orthodox East > Islamic East
But in terms of “seniority”, the ranking should be:
Pagan Greco-Roman > Christian Roman > Orthodox East > Catholic West/Islamic East > Protestant West
The Orthodox East clearly has more claims to seniority than the Protestant West. So does Islamic East.
If one day the Orthodox or Islamic East become core again, they are not allowed to just “eject” the Protestant West from its civilization history.
Try Joseph Henrich's book: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/09/joseph-henrich-explores-weird-societies/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51710349-the-weirdest-people-in-the-world
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/12/twitter-files-explained-elon-musk-taibbi-weiss-hunter-biden-laptop.html
“For these reasons, the Twitter Files are best understood as an egregious example of the very phenomenon it purports to condemn — that of social-media managers leveraging their platforms for partisan ends.”
https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-states-government-pennsylvania-2022-midterm-elections-arizona-6ce58816a74a76c7ff97c64f8a4c85e9?taid=63d5ad43056e600001abac37&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1618826848900907009?cxt=HHwWgoDUmaacnfcsAAAA
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/01/2016-us-election-outcome-russian-social-media-trolls/672836/
https://popular.info/p/twitter-cant-handle-the-truth
https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/has-twitter-had-a-far-right-bent?utm_source=twitter&sd=pfReplies: @Frankie P
Now the big question arrives:
Who should I believe?
Should I believe Matt Taibbi, who has a long proven record of uncovering truths that are inconvenient to big players without a care about political affiliations or the damage he might be doing to his own career?
Or should I believe the likes of Eric Levitz, Seth Abramson, Marc Levy and Judd Legum, writing damage control for the mainstream narrative for rags like the Atlantic and NY Mag, clearly massaging the narrative to lead the sheep deeper down the confusion hole?
I know my answer. Can you hear me, Covinus, down there among the confusion hole addicts?
I have posted a reply to the wrong comment.
On the other hand- your entire world-view is wrong (at least when it comes to discussing a topic).
Protestant West > Catholic West > Catholic East > (if even included) Orthodox East > Islamic East
But in terms of "seniority", the ranking should be:
Pagan Greco-Roman > Christian Roman > Orthodox East > Catholic West/Islamic East > Protestant West
The Orthodox East clearly has more claims to seniority than the Protestant West. So does Islamic East.
If one day the Orthodox or Islamic East become core again, they are not allowed to just "eject" the Protestant West from its civilization history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NXdY-vq4CQReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Twinkie
This is childish.
Spengler wrote long ago that ancient Greece was the birth-place of the West, while Byzantine & modern Greece is its periphery (even this is too generous).
Red herring. I was talking about morality, not salvation. Jews are instructed to act in a manner similar to Christians as to how to treat people.
“A lot of Whites disagree with me. Many Whites work to actively undermine Whites. Some do it as much as Jews do.”
Yes or no—are they anti-whites?
Yes or no—must all whites adhere to your pro-white policy?
What is anti-white by the way? How would you define it? Does it mean a white person can’t be friends with a non white lest they be anti white? How about sell them properly? How about marriage or sire offspring?Replies: @Frankie P, @Roger
Corvinus is so clueless that he would make a statement like this:
“I was talking about morality, not salvation.”
Let me give you a hint. Most Christians believe that they receive salvation because of their moral behavior during life. It informs their worldview and everyday actions. At least that is the goal; as all humans are imperfect and stray from the correct road, Christians, like other peoples, do wrong and behave immorally.
This objective or goal of moral righteousness is the foundation of Christianity in the interest of all men (sorry, you have forgotten that “all men” means all humanity, so I must remind you), and all men are welcome to join the faith, the journey to an improved life, trying to achieve the impossible task of being like the teacher (Jesus). This illuminates Christianity.
Judiasm, on the other hand, is informed by behavior designed to benefit one small sliver, a tiny group, of humans: the Jews. It doesn’t matter if the Jew is a headbanging Talmudic scholar or a secular Jew living in Brooklyn, his culture and foundation has been built on a belief that he and his people are superior, and that his behavior towards other humans does not have to reach the standards of his treatment of other Jews. Worse yet, he has been trained and inclucated with the belief that the goy are an ever-present danger, genetically designed to display “anti-semitism” at any time, without any stimulation, irrationally. It is a sad and horrifying situation, and I thank God that I have not been dealt this terrible hand. To walk around the Earth believing that most of the other humans hate you and could suddenly attack you must be a nightmare.
On the other hand, Jews who find the strength to question and refuse to accept the narrative about the goys often become some of most enlightened folks in the world. Others, like Ron Unz, were never really culturally trained and taught these things about Jews and goys, so they end up identifying more as citizens of their nations (Ron Unz seems to be a proud American who is concerned about his country) than by their ethnicity.
Protestant West > Catholic West > Catholic East > (if even included) Orthodox East > Islamic East
But in terms of "seniority", the ranking should be:
Pagan Greco-Roman > Christian Roman > Orthodox East > Catholic West/Islamic East > Protestant West
The Orthodox East clearly has more claims to seniority than the Protestant West. So does Islamic East.
If one day the Orthodox or Islamic East become core again, they are not allowed to just "eject" the Protestant West from its civilization history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NXdY-vq4CQReplies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Twinkie
Modern Western (and Central) Europe – indeed “The West” as such – was birthed by the medieval Catholic Church.
Try Joseph Henrich’s book: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/09/joseph-henrich-explores-weird-societies/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51710349-the-weirdest-people-in-the-world
Red herring. I was talking about morality, not salvation. Jews are instructed to act in a manner similar to Christians as to how to treat people.
“A lot of Whites disagree with me. Many Whites work to actively undermine Whites. Some do it as much as Jews do.”
Yes or no—are they anti-whites?
Yes or no—must all whites adhere to your pro-white policy?
What is anti-white by the way? How would you define it? Does it mean a white person can’t be friends with a non white lest they be anti white? How about sell them properly? How about marriage or sire offspring?Replies: @Frankie P, @Roger
Not true. I see that Frankie P answered you.
Apparently not. Many Whites actively promote anti-white policies.
On the other hand- your entire world-view is wrong (at least when it comes to discussing a topic).Replies: @Yahya
Yes you are entirely correct; Ancient Greece was indeed of the West. Wikipedia says so; so that must be the truth.
The rest of us are childish, wrong, missing the forest for the trees; and incapable of having a qualified discussion. Only Bardon The Wise knows the truth; hidden in the deep bowels of Wikipedia.
The Eastern Romans Romania still considered themselves to be Romans, only that their capital was Constantinople and their language was no longer Latin but Greek.
Francia, Romania, Arabia, each had legitimate claim as successor to Classical Greco-Roman civilization. Only that Francia later became core of the Modern West, Romania is now in the periphery, and Arabia not at all.Replies: @BB753
No, you’re confusing the kingdom of the Franks (which shrunk to parts of modern-day France, Belgium, Netherlands after encompassing nearly all of Western Europe) with the Holy Roman Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
https://i.postimg.cc/zBngpw1V/francia3.gif
https://www.friesian.com/francia.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia#Divided_empire,_after_840
Charlemagne was King of the Franks, King of the Lombards and the Holy Roman Emperor (and hence has been called Pater Europae "Father of Europe").
But he was never the Roman Emperor, just because his domain included Rome (and no German has ever held the title of Roman Emperor). That title belonged to the emperors in Constantinople.Replies: @BB753
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_EmpireReplies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
HRE was one the successors to Francia, of mainly Francia Orientalis,
https://www.friesian.com/francia.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia#Divided_empire,_after_840
Charlemagne was King of the Franks, King of the Lombards and the Holy Roman Emperor (and hence has been called Pater Europae “Father of Europe”).
But he was never the Roman Emperor, just because his domain included Rome (and no German has ever held the title of Roman Emperor). That title belonged to the emperors in Constantinople.
“The Eastern Roman Empire is Byzantine (also meaning arcane, devious)” is itself a synthetic statement. Since you brought up that term you should know what it means.
Until its last days in 1453, it called itself and was by others Imperium Romanum.
Western Europeans accelerated Imperium Romanum‘s demise by sacking Constantinople in 1204 and gained from the exodus of its scholars after its final fall.
Then by the Renaissance began to imagine themselves as the direct descendant of Trajan and not Constantine.
https://i.postimg.cc/zBngpw1V/francia3.gif
https://www.friesian.com/francia.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia#Divided_empire,_after_840
Charlemagne was King of the Franks, King of the Lombards and the Holy Roman Emperor (and hence has been called Pater Europae "Father of Europe").
But he was never the Roman Emperor, just because his domain included Rome (and no German has ever held the title of Roman Emperor). That title belonged to the emperors in Constantinople.Replies: @BB753
Of course, the Western Roman Empire never came back, not After Charlemagne, not with the mock Roman Empire called Holy Roman Empire. The real Roman Empire lived on…in Constantinople, until 1453 AD.
Who knows what kind of crazy stuff people will do if there are affirmative action benefits attached or in order to score political points or satisfy some psychological need. Hell, there are men today who say that they are women, and people with a fraction of 1% Indian ancestry will claim to be Indians, so Jews claiming to be MENA would be less crazy than a lot of things. But if you asked most (non-Israeli) Ashkenazi Jews privately if they consider themselves to be Middle Eastern or North African, they would tell you hell no.
Personally, I see Ashkenazi Jews (and for that matter most true Sephardic Jews whose ancestors hail from Iberia) to be a primarily European race (with some remote Middle Eastern ancestry), which makes their persecution by their fellow Europeans even more unjust. When my father was a young man in Poland, a popular slogan of the Polish nationalist (i.e. anti-Semitic) party was “Jews to Palestine!” The implication being that Jews were some alien race in Poland who should “go back where they came from” even though they had lived in Poland for 1,000 years (which is a lot longer than any Founding Stock American has lived in America).
Now the modern existence of Israel has complicated this because at the same time, Jews claim an ancestral right to Israel as a homeland. Personally I have no desire to move to Israel. When I visited it felt like a very alien place. America is the only homeland that I have. However, the necessities of the modern world are such that if your people have no place to call their own (e.g. the Kurds) you are at the mercy of others. The Jews of Europe found out about this the hard way, the really hard way. So as a practical matter it was necessary to create a homeland for the Jews. My choice would have been Tuscany, but nobody asked me nor was it available. Israel however fit the bill in large part because of the ancient connections, however tenuous and because the collapse of the Ottoman Empire left it up for grabs. If Europe wants to give Palestine “back ” to the Arabs and give the Jews Tuscany instead, that would be fine with me, but as a practical matter, it’s Israel or nowhere so Israel it must be.
But that doesn’t make me “Middle Eastern”. I am about as Middle Eastern as the average African-American is European but no one (not blacks and not whites) wants to consider African-Americans to be European because they have 20% European ancestry.
So your answer is to remain a slave to confirmation bias.
Personally, I see Ashkenazi Jews (and for that matter most true Sephardic Jews whose ancestors hail from Iberia) to be a primarily European race (with some remote Middle Eastern ancestry), which makes their persecution by their fellow Europeans even more unjust. When my father was a young man in Poland, a popular slogan of the Polish nationalist (i.e. anti-Semitic) party was "Jews to Palestine!" The implication being that Jews were some alien race in Poland who should "go back where they came from" even though they had lived in Poland for 1,000 years (which is a lot longer than any Founding Stock American has lived in America).
Now the modern existence of Israel has complicated this because at the same time, Jews claim an ancestral right to Israel as a homeland. Personally I have no desire to move to Israel. When I visited it felt like a very alien place. America is the only homeland that I have. However, the necessities of the modern world are such that if your people have no place to call their own (e.g. the Kurds) you are at the mercy of others. The Jews of Europe found out about this the hard way, the really hard way. So as a practical matter it was necessary to create a homeland for the Jews. My choice would have been Tuscany, but nobody asked me nor was it available. Israel however fit the bill in large part because of the ancient connections, however tenuous and because the collapse of the Ottoman Empire left it up for grabs. If Europe wants to give Palestine "back " to the Arabs and give the Jews Tuscany instead, that would be fine with me, but as a practical matter, it's Israel or nowhere so Israel it must be.
But that doesn't make me "Middle Eastern". I am about as Middle Eastern as the average African-American is European but no one (not blacks and not whites) wants to consider African-Americans to be European because they have 20% European ancestry.Replies: @Corvinus, @Yahya
JFC, Ashkenazi Jews traditions carried over from the Holy Land, Babylonia, and the western Mediterranean to their new European environment. Meaning this group’s origins are NOT European.
You’re not fooling anyone.
Someone stole his identity?
Some aspects of the Temple religion carried over into Europe. A lot did not. Their spoken language was Germanic (with Hebrew reserved only for religious observance) . Their diet was largely European (modified to comply with religious requirements). Their dress, housing, etc. was all European derived. If you compared the average European Jew to say a German and an Arab, he was a lot more like the German except when it came to religious matters.Replies: @Corvinus
Is this some kind of new thing where Corvinus larps as an unzite? Or has he had a change of heart?
Someone stole his identity?
Some aspects of the Temple religion carried over into Europe. A lot did not. Their spoken language was Germanic (with Hebrew reserved only for religious observance) . Their diet was largely European (modified to comply with religious requirements). Their dress, housing, etc. was all European derived. If you compared the average European Jew to say a German and an Arab, he was a lot more like the German except when it came to religious matters.
Or so I’ve been informed by the unz commetariat.
Someone stole his identity?
Some aspects of the Temple religion carried over into Europe. A lot did not. Their spoken language was Germanic (with Hebrew reserved only for religious observance) . Their diet was largely European (modified to comply with religious requirements). Their dress, housing, etc. was all European derived. If you compared the average European Jew to say a German and an Arab, he was a lot more like the German except when it came to religious matters.Replies: @Corvinus
No, not larping, just pointing out how you play the victim card and refuse to take ownership of your group’s faults. You’re just like the darkies in that regard. And you continue to deflect and deny.
Or so I’ve been informed by the unz commetariat.
Personally, I see Ashkenazi Jews (and for that matter most true Sephardic Jews whose ancestors hail from Iberia) to be a primarily European race (with some remote Middle Eastern ancestry), which makes their persecution by their fellow Europeans even more unjust. When my father was a young man in Poland, a popular slogan of the Polish nationalist (i.e. anti-Semitic) party was "Jews to Palestine!" The implication being that Jews were some alien race in Poland who should "go back where they came from" even though they had lived in Poland for 1,000 years (which is a lot longer than any Founding Stock American has lived in America).
Now the modern existence of Israel has complicated this because at the same time, Jews claim an ancestral right to Israel as a homeland. Personally I have no desire to move to Israel. When I visited it felt like a very alien place. America is the only homeland that I have. However, the necessities of the modern world are such that if your people have no place to call their own (e.g. the Kurds) you are at the mercy of others. The Jews of Europe found out about this the hard way, the really hard way. So as a practical matter it was necessary to create a homeland for the Jews. My choice would have been Tuscany, but nobody asked me nor was it available. Israel however fit the bill in large part because of the ancient connections, however tenuous and because the collapse of the Ottoman Empire left it up for grabs. If Europe wants to give Palestine "back " to the Arabs and give the Jews Tuscany instead, that would be fine with me, but as a practical matter, it's Israel or nowhere so Israel it must be.
But that doesn't make me "Middle Eastern". I am about as Middle Eastern as the average African-American is European but no one (not blacks and not whites) wants to consider African-Americans to be European because they have 20% European ancestry.Replies: @Corvinus, @Yahya
But Bardon The Wise says Jews have a very strong – almost mystical – emotional-historical attachment to the land; owing to a continuity of identity over 2,000 years. How is it possible that a European Jew like you can come to view Israel as alien? You mention that culturally you are more European than Middle Eastern; deriving much of your behavior from European norms; but again, the Sage Of iSteve has proclaimed the Ashkenazim as maintaining continuity with the Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. So either you are lying about your Europeaness; or Bardon the Wise has erred substantially on a topic he knows little about. The latter is unlikely; since the bearded one does not err; so we will have to assume you are merely pretending to not be attached to Israel; perhaps in order to ingratiate yourself with the anti-Zionist crowd here. But please, desist from this nonsense of claiming Ashkenazi Jews are more European than Middle Eastern. It goes counter to the Zionist narrative.