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Woods vs. Federer: Tiger Mothers vs. Roger Fathers
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David Epstein, who wrote the HBD-aware book The Sports Gene, has a new take on an old topic of discussion here at iSteve. From the NYT:

You Don’t Want a Child Prodigy

What ‘Roger’ dads do better than Tiger moms ever will.

By David Epstein
David Epstein is the author of the forthcoming Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World,” from which this essay is adapted.

May 24, 2019

… I do find the Tiger Woods story incredibly compelling; there is a reason it may be the most famous tale of development ever. …

I entitled my book review last year in Taki’s Magazine of the Tiger Woods’ bio: “The Tiger Mother’s Son.”

And yet, I knew that his path was not the only way to the top.

Consider Roger Federer. Just a year before Woods won this most recent Masters, Federer, at 36, became the oldest tennis player ever to be ranked No. 1 in the world.

Tiger’s 15 major championships trail not only Jack Nicklaus’ 18, but also Federer’s 20.

But as a child, Federer was not solely focused on tennis. He dabbled in skiing, wrestling, swimming, skateboarding and squash. He played basketball, handball, tennis, table tennis and soccer (and badminton over his neighbor’s fence). Federer later credited the variety of sports with developing his athleticism and coordination.

While Tiger’s story is much better known, when sports scientists study top athletes, they find that the Roger pattern is the standard. Athletes who go on to become elite usually have a “sampling period.” They try a variety of sports, gain a breadth of general skills, learn about their own abilities and proclivities, and delay specializing until later than their peers who plateau at lower levels. The way to develop the best 20-year-old athlete, it turns out, is not the same as the way to make the best 10-year-old athlete.

The same general pattern tends to hold true for music, another domain where the annals of young prodigies are filled with tales of eight hours of violin, and only violin, a day. …

I found the Roger pattern — not the Tiger (or Tiger Mother) pattern — in most domains I examined. Professional breadth paid off, from the creation of comic books (a creator’s years of experience did not predict performance, but the number of different genres the creator had worked in did) to technological innovation (the most successful inventors were those who had worked in a large number of the federal Patent and Trademark Office’s different technological classifications).

 
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  1. Cricket superstar with minor in professional football (soccer)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Botham

    Football superstar with original intention to be a professional golfer

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Denis Compton: Majors in both cricket and football (soccer) until he wrecked a knee.
  2. Tiger didn’t get a “sampling period” because his father was obsessed with turning him into a golf prodigy. Golf is an incredibly hard game to master, but an elite tennis player is a far better athlete than any golfer.

  3. Hopefully this will be proven in a future triumph by well-rounded ice people over Han and Hind hordes who had memorized every typo in texts they could not contextualize. However, this finding comes as we also learn that we’re all getting dumber.

  4. @Anon7
    I think you missed this link:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/24/opinion/sunday/kids-sports-music-choices.html

    Thanks.

  5. jb says:

    Maybe Roger Fathers are more common that Tiger Mothers. Maybe talented children being left alone to pursue their own interests is more common than their being forced into specialties. Maybe Tiger Woods would have found some sport to excel at on his own even if he had not been pushed into anything, while Roger Federer would have excelled at pretty much any sport he was pushed into.

    I.e., maybe the only thing that matters is talent, and the only reason “the Roger pattern is the standard” is that that just happens to be the way most kids — talented or not — are brought up. This would reconcile Epstein’s observations with the idea that “parents don’t matter.”

  6. Just to put an alternate hypothesis out there: maybe guys like Federer wait to specialize later because they are so much more athletic than everyone else there is less of a need to specialize?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Who are baseball players who specialized young in the modern way? Bryce Harper? He seems like he isn't getting the maximum out of his considerable talents.

    Mike Trout played a ton of high school basketball, but quickly became not just a vast baseball talent but a real craftsman of many different aspects of the game.

    , @Endgame Napoleon
    In a place where I worked, I saw a 2-year-old baby from a well-known sports family literally hop down a bunch of stairs on one leg with no help from an adult. Some people are definitely born with more coordination than others. But there’s nothing inherently competitive about that feat, although the baby appeared to be pleased with himself for accomplishing this impossible thing.

    Could a person with equal innate ability be less competitive while still winning? It seems like drive has a lot to do with sports. If someone plays many different sports, the drive might be more self-propelling. Otherwise, a parent is directing a kid to try many different extracurricular activities, orchestrating it all. That could be the case. Most parents schedule their kids in fifty million group activities. Of course, most of those kids only have a shallow mastery of any of those things and just as little interest. It’s obligatory.
  7. @BigDickNick
    Just to put an alternate hypothesis out there: maybe guys like Federer wait to specialize later because they are so much more athletic than everyone else there is less of a need to specialize?

    Who are baseball players who specialized young in the modern way? Bryce Harper? He seems like he isn’t getting the maximum out of his considerable talents.

    Mike Trout played a ton of high school basketball, but quickly became not just a vast baseball talent but a real craftsman of many different aspects of the game.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Moderately classist.

    If your parents arent upper middle class, you can afford one, and your determined its a road to success.

    See boxing, soccer in the old days etc.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    Specializing in baseball (primarily pitching), along with some other sports, also significantly increases injury risk.

    Knowing more about which pitchers' arms are likely to hold up throughout a 15- or 20-year MLB career would be really valuable.
    , @Barnard
    In Bryce Harper's case doesn't that have to do with temperment and personality. Most top rated tennis players specialized very young. Andre Agassi took a tennis lesson from Jimmy Connors when he was 2. Many of them get shipped off to tennis academies before they would hit middle school. Federer has not been the norm.
  8. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Who are baseball players who specialized young in the modern way? Bryce Harper? He seems like he isn't getting the maximum out of his considerable talents.

    Mike Trout played a ton of high school basketball, but quickly became not just a vast baseball talent but a real craftsman of many different aspects of the game.

    Moderately classist.

    If your parents arent upper middle class, you can afford one, and your determined its a road to success.

    See boxing, soccer in the old days etc.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Hmmm.

    What, then, explains the success of the archetypal British “all-rounder” Bernard Briggs?

    http://www.victorhornetcomics.co.uk/briggs.html
    , @Dtbb
    That is why soccer is most popular. All you need is one ball that is often home made.
  9. @Steve Sailer
    Who are baseball players who specialized young in the modern way? Bryce Harper? He seems like he isn't getting the maximum out of his considerable talents.

    Mike Trout played a ton of high school basketball, but quickly became not just a vast baseball talent but a real craftsman of many different aspects of the game.

    Specializing in baseball (primarily pitching), along with some other sports, also significantly increases injury risk.

    Knowing more about which pitchers’ arms are likely to hold up throughout a 15- or 20-year MLB career would be really valuable.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    I do think pitchers specialize earlier and more often. It is a difficult skillset to master. Similar to hockey players skating quite early, and great boxers typically start young. Not to say they all focus 100% of the time on one sport, but I suspect less dabbling.

    Figuring out how to keep pitchers healthy is up there with curing cancer. Not to make light, but either will make you a very rich man. All the recent biomechanic studies haven't seem to make a dent in pitchers injuries. Remember the fad of the "inverted W"?
  10. Steve Nash chose basketball but by universal accord he was also an incredibly gifted soccer player as well. He had open contracts to play soccer at the highest levels.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The way he played basketball was very similar to soccer.
  11. “…I do find the Tiger Woods story incredibly compelling; there is a reason it may be the most famous tale of development ever.

    Woods was 7 months old when his father gave him a putter, which he dragged around in his circular baby-walker. At 2, he showed off his drive on national television.

    By 21, he was the best golfer in the world.

    There were, to be sure, personal and professional bumps along the way, but in April he became the second-oldest player ever to win the Masters.

    Woods’s tale spawned an early-specialization industry.

    bored identity strongly believes that all this shere-khanery of Woods’ mamagony-driven success is hastily and compellingly contrived for two reasons:

    A.) Projection as usual.
    B.) Tiger’s rouge sociopolitical affinities.

    Now bored identity is waiting for Epstein’s follow ups on the compelling Rat Father who hired a coding instructor to privately lecture his five year old Facepubis Augustus, or the even more compelling saga of Gorilla Mum & Dad who never bothered to ask Jane Goodall for parenting advice while racketeering their daughters’ childhood.

  12. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Federer and pretty much every tennis pro is a bad example because they all specialize at an early age in terms of professional coaching and hours of daily training and practice. They are specialized at a young age compared to, say, American team sports which tend to be more gradually picked up. Playing badminton in the backyard “over the neighbor’s fence”, skateboarding, swimming, basketball, etc. doesn’t change the fact that Federer and tennis pros in general start heavy coaching and training when they’re in young. Federer wasn’t merely dabbling in tennis like he was with skateboarding or badminton.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Federer's mother says in that video that he was hitting against a wall for hours when he was just 3.
  13. @Anonymous
    Moderately classist.

    If your parents arent upper middle class, you can afford one, and your determined its a road to success.

    See boxing, soccer in the old days etc.

    Hmmm.

    What, then, explains the success of the archetypal British “all-rounder” Bernard Briggs?

    http://www.victorhornetcomics.co.uk/briggs.html

  14. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Federer and pretty much every tennis pro is a bad example because they all specialize at an early age in terms of professional coaching and hours of daily training and practice. They are specialized at a young age compared to, say, American team sports which tend to be more gradually picked up. Playing badminton in the backyard "over the neighbor's fence", skateboarding, swimming, basketball, etc. doesn't change the fact that Federer and tennis pros in general start heavy coaching and training when they're in young. Federer wasn't merely dabbling in tennis like he was with skateboarding or badminton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meMfkvg0Myw

    Federer’s mother says in that video that he was hitting against a wall for hours when he was just 3.

  15. Probably the more general the sport the less sense it makes to specialize in it. If you’ve got a skinny kid who’s a six footer at 12 and a great athlete, you might want to stick with basketball.

    But if he’s closer to average and a great all-around athlete might as well let him try out different sports to see what suits him.

    Ultimately physiology plays a big role in where athletes end up, and sometimes they have to try a few sports to see which suits them best. It often seems obvious at the elite level who is suited to what sport, but it isn’t always so clear for kids who are still growing.

  16. Anon[740] • Disclaimer says:

    So you have your kid sample for 10,000 hours, and then make him specialize? Do you play Mozart to him in the womb only after a few month’s of more varied music?

    What if your kid settles on figure skating? Do you move him to a state that hasn’t outlawed conversion therapy?

    • LOL: AnotherDad
  17. @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    Steve Nash chose basketball but by universal accord he was also an incredibly gifted soccer player as well. He had open contracts to play soccer at the highest levels.

    The way he played basketball was very similar to soccer.

  18. The same general pattern tends to hold true for music, another domain where the annals of young prodigies are filled with tales of eight hours of violin, and only violin, a day“

    Mozart doesn’t fit this mold. He was already dominant in violin before he was ten. By 12, he could be considered far greater a classic violinist than most modern players three four times his age. And Epstein forgets to mention that Mozart was also writing symphonies, sonatas, operas, etc before he turned 19. Think he wrote his first sonata at age 9 or 10. We’re not talking equivalent to modern dinky little rhyme-y pop songs played on top 40 either.

    Talking about one of the most dominant composers of Western music for the last 1,000 years.

    Sorry, I just can’t put Eldrick and Mozart as equals in the same sentence as to which has willl continue to have lasting relevance on the world.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Tiger is the exciting prodigy and killer who dominated the sport and marketing for more than a decade, marrying a Swedish model ultimately.

    Eldrick is the guy bangin hookers, porn stars and perkins waitresses on the DL, gambling with Barkely and co in Vegas
  19. @Steve Sailer
    Who are baseball players who specialized young in the modern way? Bryce Harper? He seems like he isn't getting the maximum out of his considerable talents.

    Mike Trout played a ton of high school basketball, but quickly became not just a vast baseball talent but a real craftsman of many different aspects of the game.

    In Bryce Harper’s case doesn’t that have to do with temperment and personality. Most top rated tennis players specialized very young. Andre Agassi took a tennis lesson from Jimmy Connors when he was 2. Many of them get shipped off to tennis academies before they would hit middle school. Federer has not been the norm.

  20. Ugly as sin, but maybe the greatest all-around sportsperson ever:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violette_Morris

  21. there isn’t much comparison. federer is a LOT better at what he does than woods is at what he does. more winning and longevity, in a bigger sport with much better athletes.

    then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least. so even among the best in the world at their sports, there is a giant chasm of difference.

    a closer comparison is boxing, and old WBC, WBA champions. wlad, foreman. high skill level required to be developed as a teenager in amateur training, then continued throughout life. if your skill slips enough, you get knocked out, aside from your reflexes or fitness slipping.

    also, like i’ve said a dozen times, there are zero real athletes in professional golf. those guys are the guys who couldn’t play real sports when it mattered. when they were teenagers. so they settled on competitive golf. nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    also, almost nobody can afford to play competitive golf. it has by far the biggest, most expensive playing surface in the world. some sports commentators like to bash stuff such as ice hockey for the ‘nobody can afford to play this’ factor. oh yeah? and who can afford to play golf? there isn’t a single guy from russia or brazil even on the tour. if you have a sport where half of the top 10 finishers are american, you’re probably watching NASCAR or PGA.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    Perhaps, but that understates both the appeal (what sport do team sport stars play for fun?) and the money in golf. Since Arnold Palmer, the top golfers have made huge amounts of money off endorsements.

    , @inselaffen
    "then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least"

    Does Brady play in a bigger global sport than Federer, then?

    also, it's a team one so he has less to do.

    , @Desiderius
    I lettered in golf, basketball, and baseball. I wasn’t really into football or soccer and I’d been playing golf with my (reasonably affluent) grandparents since I was four. My grandfather was a very good player so it was fun to watch him do his thing.

    We had a local club that let teens play all they like during certain hours for an affordable fee, so I got to play a lot there, then in season the school picked up the greens fees at our modest home course. I ended up a 3 at my peak.
  22. @prime noticer
    there isn't much comparison. federer is a LOT better at what he does than woods is at what he does. more winning and longevity, in a bigger sport with much better athletes.

    then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least. so even among the best in the world at their sports, there is a giant chasm of difference.

    a closer comparison is boxing, and old WBC, WBA champions. wlad, foreman. high skill level required to be developed as a teenager in amateur training, then continued throughout life. if your skill slips enough, you get knocked out, aside from your reflexes or fitness slipping.

    also, like i've said a dozen times, there are zero real athletes in professional golf. those guys are the guys who couldn't play real sports when it mattered. when they were teenagers. so they settled on competitive golf. nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    also, almost nobody can afford to play competitive golf. it has by far the biggest, most expensive playing surface in the world. some sports commentators like to bash stuff such as ice hockey for the 'nobody can afford to play this' factor. oh yeah? and who can afford to play golf? there isn't a single guy from russia or brazil even on the tour. if you have a sport where half of the top 10 finishers are american, you're probably watching NASCAR or PGA.

    nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    Perhaps, but that understates both the appeal (what sport do team sport stars play for fun?) and the money in golf. Since Arnold Palmer, the top golfers have made huge amounts of money off endorsements.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes. I don't think people fully grasp that you can actually lose money as a golfer on tour. Youre an independent contractor essentially, with an equipment maker subsidizing all your related costs by the time you get your card. But that doesnt include travel and lodging, numerous other costs associated with the tour. No one is paying the lowest rated player, virtual unknoiowns to appear in ads or use titlist. If you dont win some prize money, you can be working for free. The smallest purse for many less know tournaments is about 5-10k IF you make the cut.

    People think of sports as salaries and endorsement deals and all the women you can get. In golf its pay to play, no salary.
  23. Marv Marinovich famously Tiger-dadded his son Todd into the NFL where he was a first-round draft pick as a QB and had a spectacularly bad three-year career, but his son eventually went insane.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    ya, there are blowouts like that in every sport, entertainment, proverbial cute child actors end up getting used by hollywood sleazes as weve seen so much lately, confirming what everyone long knew or suspected.
  24. @BigDickNick
    Just to put an alternate hypothesis out there: maybe guys like Federer wait to specialize later because they are so much more athletic than everyone else there is less of a need to specialize?

    In a place where I worked, I saw a 2-year-old baby from a well-known sports family literally hop down a bunch of stairs on one leg with no help from an adult. Some people are definitely born with more coordination than others. But there’s nothing inherently competitive about that feat, although the baby appeared to be pleased with himself for accomplishing this impossible thing.

    Could a person with equal innate ability be less competitive while still winning? It seems like drive has a lot to do with sports. If someone plays many different sports, the drive might be more self-propelling. Otherwise, a parent is directing a kid to try many different extracurricular activities, orchestrating it all. That could be the case. Most parents schedule their kids in fifty million group activities. Of course, most of those kids only have a shallow mastery of any of those things and just as little interest. It’s obligatory.

  25. @Cortes
    Cricket superstar with minor in professional football (soccer)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Botham

    Football superstar with original intention to be a professional golfer

    Denis Compton: Majors in both cricket and football (soccer) until he wrecked a knee.

  26. Also, what about Steffi Graf and Andre Agassi, complaining about their Tiger Dads. They came from different cultures, but had the same intense fathers, acting like Asian Tiger Moms. Their complaints seem over-the-top given that they both had world-class success, earning boatloads of money on top of it. And their dads must have taught them how to manage it. You don’t hear about them losing their money like many sports stars. Graff was one of the major female tennis players, wining a ton over many years, so the Tiger Dad thing was pretty efficient at producing consistent winning over time. Agassi won quite a bit, too, but possibly for fewer years. That might just be a personality difference. For people who are capable of that, it would be crazy to waste the talent. Their Tiger parents were right.

  27. Parents should encourage their kids to become productive members of their communities and society, not to pursue a career in the entertainment industry. Actors and athletes live by skimming of the surplus produced by the productive and form the Circus part of a mass consumerist ‘Soma’ induced haze far to many exist in.

  28. Rams receiver Jack Snow’s son, J.T., had the opportunity to play either professional football, or baseball. His dad encouraged him to go into baseball, because of the longevity factor, as well as avoiding head injuries. J.T. took his advice, and played first baseman for the Yankees, Giants, Angels, and Red Sox.

  29. I’m not surprised.
    High capacity prople often have big appetitites for different experiences. That’s how they come full circle.
    Only jews and capitalists are obsessed with this idea of stunting humans down to automatum like simplicity ( aka”specialization”).
    But since humans are an extension of God, it’s no surprise they manifest that pulsating variety mirrored in the nature.

  30. @Anonymous
    Moderately classist.

    If your parents arent upper middle class, you can afford one, and your determined its a road to success.

    See boxing, soccer in the old days etc.

    That is why soccer is most popular. All you need is one ball that is often home made.

  31. I thought the way it worked was as kids got closer to 20 their future body became clearer. My guess is if Federer or Woods ended up closer to 7′ than 6′ they would be playing basketball. There are very few slots available for pro athletes and hoards of wannabees. You end up a pro in the sport whose optimal body type matches yours.

  32. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    Perhaps, but that understates both the appeal (what sport do team sport stars play for fun?) and the money in golf. Since Arnold Palmer, the top golfers have made huge amounts of money off endorsements.

    Yes. I don’t think people fully grasp that you can actually lose money as a golfer on tour. Youre an independent contractor essentially, with an equipment maker subsidizing all your related costs by the time you get your card. But that doesnt include travel and lodging, numerous other costs associated with the tour. No one is paying the lowest rated player, virtual unknoiowns to appear in ads or use titlist. If you dont win some prize money, you can be working for free. The smallest purse for many less know tournaments is about 5-10k IF you make the cut.

    People think of sports as salaries and endorsement deals and all the women you can get. In golf its pay to play, no salary.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Youre an independent contractor essentially
     
    You are soft-pedaling this. Golfers are independent contractors period.
  33. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @ScarletNumber
    Marv Marinovich famously Tiger-dadded his son Todd into the NFL where he was a first-round draft pick as a QB and had a spectacularly bad three-year career, but his son eventually went insane.

    ya, there are blowouts like that in every sport, entertainment, proverbial cute child actors end up getting used by hollywood sleazes as weve seen so much lately, confirming what everyone long knew or suspected.

  34. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    The same general pattern tends to hold true for music, another domain where the annals of young prodigies are filled with tales of eight hours of violin, and only violin, a day“

    Mozart doesn’t fit this mold. He was already dominant in violin before he was ten. By 12, he could be considered far greater a classic violinist than most modern players three four times his age. And Epstein forgets to mention that Mozart was also writing symphonies, sonatas, operas, etc before he turned 19. Think he wrote his first sonata at age 9 or 10. We’re not talking equivalent to modern dinky little rhyme-y pop songs played on top 40 either.

    Talking about one of the most dominant composers of Western music for the last 1,000 years.

    Sorry, I just can’t put Eldrick and Mozart as equals in the same sentence as to which has willl continue to have lasting relevance on the world.

    Tiger is the exciting prodigy and killer who dominated the sport and marketing for more than a decade, marrying a Swedish model ultimately.

    Eldrick is the guy bangin hookers, porn stars and perkins waitresses on the DL, gambling with Barkely and co in Vegas

  35. @The Last Real Calvinist
    Specializing in baseball (primarily pitching), along with some other sports, also significantly increases injury risk.

    Knowing more about which pitchers' arms are likely to hold up throughout a 15- or 20-year MLB career would be really valuable.

    I do think pitchers specialize earlier and more often. It is a difficult skillset to master. Similar to hockey players skating quite early, and great boxers typically start young. Not to say they all focus 100% of the time on one sport, but I suspect less dabbling.

    Figuring out how to keep pitchers healthy is up there with curing cancer. Not to make light, but either will make you a very rich man. All the recent biomechanic studies haven’t seem to make a dent in pitchers injuries. Remember the fad of the “inverted W”?

  36. @Anonymous
    Yes. I don't think people fully grasp that you can actually lose money as a golfer on tour. Youre an independent contractor essentially, with an equipment maker subsidizing all your related costs by the time you get your card. But that doesnt include travel and lodging, numerous other costs associated with the tour. No one is paying the lowest rated player, virtual unknoiowns to appear in ads or use titlist. If you dont win some prize money, you can be working for free. The smallest purse for many less know tournaments is about 5-10k IF you make the cut.

    People think of sports as salaries and endorsement deals and all the women you can get. In golf its pay to play, no salary.

    Youre an independent contractor essentially

    You are soft-pedaling this. Golfers are independent contractors period.

  37. @prime noticer
    there isn't much comparison. federer is a LOT better at what he does than woods is at what he does. more winning and longevity, in a bigger sport with much better athletes.

    then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least. so even among the best in the world at their sports, there is a giant chasm of difference.

    a closer comparison is boxing, and old WBC, WBA champions. wlad, foreman. high skill level required to be developed as a teenager in amateur training, then continued throughout life. if your skill slips enough, you get knocked out, aside from your reflexes or fitness slipping.

    also, like i've said a dozen times, there are zero real athletes in professional golf. those guys are the guys who couldn't play real sports when it mattered. when they were teenagers. so they settled on competitive golf. nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    also, almost nobody can afford to play competitive golf. it has by far the biggest, most expensive playing surface in the world. some sports commentators like to bash stuff such as ice hockey for the 'nobody can afford to play this' factor. oh yeah? and who can afford to play golf? there isn't a single guy from russia or brazil even on the tour. if you have a sport where half of the top 10 finishers are american, you're probably watching NASCAR or PGA.

    “then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least”

    Does Brady play in a bigger global sport than Federer, then?

    also, it’s a team one so he has less to do.

    • Agree: black sea
  38. @prime noticer
    there isn't much comparison. federer is a LOT better at what he does than woods is at what he does. more winning and longevity, in a bigger sport with much better athletes.

    then brady, who is VASTLY better than federer. an order of magnitude at least. so even among the best in the world at their sports, there is a giant chasm of difference.

    a closer comparison is boxing, and old WBC, WBA champions. wlad, foreman. high skill level required to be developed as a teenager in amateur training, then continued throughout life. if your skill slips enough, you get knocked out, aside from your reflexes or fitness slipping.

    also, like i've said a dozen times, there are zero real athletes in professional golf. those guys are the guys who couldn't play real sports when it mattered. when they were teenagers. so they settled on competitive golf. nobody plays a couple different sports in high school, has success, then decides competitive golf is the right one instead of baseball or football or soccer.

    also, almost nobody can afford to play competitive golf. it has by far the biggest, most expensive playing surface in the world. some sports commentators like to bash stuff such as ice hockey for the 'nobody can afford to play this' factor. oh yeah? and who can afford to play golf? there isn't a single guy from russia or brazil even on the tour. if you have a sport where half of the top 10 finishers are american, you're probably watching NASCAR or PGA.

    I lettered in golf, basketball, and baseball. I wasn’t really into football or soccer and I’d been playing golf with my (reasonably affluent) grandparents since I was four. My grandfather was a very good player so it was fun to watch him do his thing.

    We had a local club that let teens play all they like during certain hours for an affordable fee, so I got to play a lot there, then in season the school picked up the greens fees at our modest home course. I ended up a 3 at my peak.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Then you slipped into mild alcoholism...

    Same ol story
  39. I recall reading that Federer’s parents even let him play down with inferior players as a teenager, so he could play with friends, even after it was clear he was a superior talent. Most little league parents of 8-year-olds wouldn’t do that.

  40. Donald J. Trump Retweeted:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    President Jack Palance
    , @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/kamechga/status/1132646354583523328?s=20
  41. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius
    I lettered in golf, basketball, and baseball. I wasn’t really into football or soccer and I’d been playing golf with my (reasonably affluent) grandparents since I was four. My grandfather was a very good player so it was fun to watch him do his thing.

    We had a local club that let teens play all they like during certain hours for an affordable fee, so I got to play a lot there, then in season the school picked up the greens fees at our modest home course. I ended up a 3 at my peak.

    Then you slipped into mild alcoholism…

    Same ol story

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It wasn’t mild, but I got bored of it pretty quickly. Can you provide a link to whatever you’re talking about?
  42. @Anonymous
    Then you slipped into mild alcoholism...

    Same ol story

    It wasn’t mild, but I got bored of it pretty quickly. Can you provide a link to whatever you’re talking about?

  43. @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1132444714047664129

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1132498578629222400

    Donald J. Trump Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/AbeShinzo/status/1132467086607802368

    President Jack Palance

  44. @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1132444714047664129

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1132498578629222400

    Donald J. Trump Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/AbeShinzo/status/1132467086607802368

    • LOL: MEH 0910

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