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Will California be Able to Enforce a $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage?
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The California legislature has voted to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour ($30,000 per year, roughly) by 2022.

I could see a high minimum wage doing some good, but I could also see it turning into a fiasco.

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen discussed much. Everybody has an opinion on what the impacts of the law would be assuming it is implemented the way it says in the law it would be implemented; but I’m wondering more what sectors of the California economy will just ignore this new law the way they currently ignore many of the other laws and regulations?

How enforceable are high minimum wage laws, especially in contemporary California, a state where a huge fraction of small business employers these days aren’t from cultures where the concept of Rule of Law is highly valued?

California is an interesting example of corruption because the government isn’t all that corrupt relative to, say, Illinois, where the government tends to shake down honest businesses. California still has 1910 Progressive government structures that are more resistant to governmental corruption than Chicago. But California now seems to have a high level of private enterprise corruption, with businesses cheating the government over taxes and Medicare and each other via insurance fraud and the like.

So, it’s hard to say what will happen with a very high minimum wage. Big companies will have to follow the law, but a huge fraction of small businessmen in California these days are Men in Gold Chains who think laws are only for chumps.

Consider this slightly analogous situation: Turkey’s Gulen cult, which is run out of Saylorsburg in the Poconos ever since the Imam Gulen fled to exile in the U.S. in the late 1990s, is the largest operator of charter schools in the United States, taking in over a half billion dollars of American taxpayer money annually. They import a lot of Turkish men to teach in their charter schools here and force these immigrants to kick back a sizable percentage of their teachers’ salary, such as 40%, to the cult:

After all, 60% of an American teacher’s salary is still a lot of money to a Third Worlder.

I could imagine such practices becoming fairly widespread in California with a $15 minimum wage: immigrants would get officially paid $15 per hour, but would have to kick back $5 per hour (or whatever) under the table to their employers.

By the way, a couple of years ago, the FBI was aggressively investigating the Gulen cult charter school fraud, but I haven’t heard much about it lately. (I kind of suspect the CIA had a sit down with the FBI and explained that the Gulen Cult was the U.S.A.’s government-in-waiting for Turkey and, as Napoleon said, “As always, the central question is Constantinople.”)

From The Hill:

March 31, 2016, 06:00 am
Why should Turkish cleric Fethullah Gülen operate charter schools on U.S. Military bases?
By Robert R. Amsterdam

A secretive Islamic movement is trying to infiltrate the U.S. military by establishing and operating publicly-funded charter schools targeted toward children of American service personnel.

That charge may sound like a conspiracy theory from the lunatic fringe, but it is real and it is happening right now. The most immediate threat is in Nevada, where Coral Academy of Science Las Vegas (CASLV) is currently negotiating with the United States Air Force to locate a charter school at Nellis Air Force Base, with classes starting this fall. What is not widely known is that CASLV is part of a nationwide organization of charter schools and other businesses headed by Islamic cleric Fethullah Gülen, a reclusive but influential Imam living under self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania to avoid criminal prosecution in his native Turkey.

Our law firm has been engaged by the Republic of Turkey – a key NATO ally in a hotbed region – to conduct a wide-ranging investigation into the operations and geopolitical influence of the Gülen organization, which is behind the Coral Academy of Science and over 140 other public charter schools scattered across 26 American states. Our investigation, still in its early stages, reveals that the Gülen organization uses charter schools and affiliated businesses in the U.S. to misappropriate and launder state and federal education dollars, which the organization then uses for its own benefit to develop political power in this country and globally.

Aside from defrauding American taxpayers, the Gülen organization has an even more ominous objective in the United States. The organization is one of the country’s largest recipients of H1-B “specialty occupation” visas, which it uses to import Turkish teachers into its charter schools, supposedly because local U.S. talent is not available to fill math and science teaching positions in its charter schools. The Gülen organization illegally threatens to revoke these visas unless the Turkish teachers agree to kick back part of their salary to the organization.

More importantly, the Turkish teachers in Gülen organization charter schools are evaluated not on the basis of their teaching skills, but rather on whether they achieve monthly goals in a secret point system designed to instil Turkish culture and Gülenist ideology in our American students. The goal, we are told, is to develop a Gülenist following of high achievers, incubated in our local community schools across the country.

Okay, but Counselor Amsterdam, you’re a hired gun for Erdogan, ruler of Turkey. Back when I first wrote about the Gulen Cult on 1/1/14, the Gulenists were trying to overthrow Erdogan on corruption charges, just as they had previously helped Erdogan imprison his secularist and military enemies on charges largely trumped up by Gulen’s guys. But Erdogan appears to have since done a deal with the beaten down military to stick it to the Gulenists, — and, by weaponizing refugee flows, Erdogan has found new, more powerful friends in the world, such as Ms. Merkel who is getting the EU to pay off and admit Turkey — so now I’m feeling sorry, kind of, for Gulen.

But shouldn’t the U.S. subsidy for Gulen come out of the CIA’s budget rather than out of local taxpayers’ property taxes for schools?

 
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  1. I don’t get the idea that California should raise the minimum wage to $15 while importing huge numbers of uneducated peasants, who don’t speak English, from Guatemala and Honduras.

    However, lots of Scientific Progressives insist that it’s a a great idea. Go figure.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    @Mike Sylwester

    It's a well-spoken white 20something employment act. That's mostly how it works in WA/OR, where the minimum wages are already much higher than 7.25/hr.

  2. Isn’t the purpose of illegal immigration to undermine minimum wage laws?

    No, really, isn’t that the whole point of hiring people who will do “jobs Americans just won’t do?”

  3. The whole point of charter schools is to allow well-connected insiders to steal from American taxpayers. It would be racist to deny, to the Turks only, a boon given freely to any Saudi prince, Nigerian scammer, Russian oligarch, Chinese Red Army insider, Koch brother, or any other of the world’s sociopathic parasites.

  4. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The whole Gulen thing is a US defense-intelligence connected outfit. Graham Fuller, the CIA guy connected to the Boston Bombing, is also connected to the Gulen thing.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2011/01/islamic_group_is_cia_front_ex-.html

    A memoir by a top former Turkish intelligence official claims that a worldwide moderate Islamic movement based in Pennsylvania has been providing cover for the CIA since the mid-1990s.

    The memoir, roughly rendered in English as “Witness to Revolution and Near Anarchy,” by retired Turkish intelligence official Osman Nuri Gundes, says the religious-tolerance movement, led by an influential former Turkish imam by the name of Fethullah Gulen, has 600 schools and 4 million followers around the world.

    In the 1990s, Gundes alleges, the movement “sheltered 130 CIA agents” at its schools in Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan alone, according to a report on his memoir Wednesday by the Paris-based Intelligence Online newsletter.

    • Replies: @Lugash
    @Anonymous

    Speaking of education, schooling and terrorism, Graham E. Fuller's son-in-law's nephew did a decent job on his US Citizenship Test:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/02/28/homeland-security-releases-immigration-files-deceased-marathon-bomber-and-friend/Byftvg8GyYhe8i431mMmmM/story.html\

    *****************************
    On Jan. 23, 2013, immigration officer David McCormack interviewed Tsarnaev and tested his English and knowledge of US history and government. He answered six civics questions correctly to pass: He knew that Africans had been slaves, that there are 27 constitutional amendments, and that the United States bought Louisiana from the French in 1803. He also identified “Joe Biden” as the vice president, said Congress makes federal laws, and that the colonists fought the British over “high taxes.” He correctly read a question about voting and wrote the answer: “Citizens can vote.”

    His sole error was to say that the federal court, and not the Supreme Court, is the highest court in the United States.
    *****************************

    *****************************
    But instead of marking the box that said, “Congratulations! Your application has been recommended for approval,” the officer checked the next box, which said, “A decision cannot yet be made about your application.”
    *****************************

  5. This strikes me as just another aspect of anarcho-tyranny. The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner, nor do they intend to aggressively enforce these laws. The whole point is the public act of piety. Displaying empathy for the downtrodden is still a part of their ethics, but they no longer really know who is the downtrodden. It really does not matter anyway. They just want the moment.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @The Z Blog


    The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner,
     
    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his "severance package." State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    At least that's how it works in Maryland. Immigrant rights groups actively solicit wage cases.

    Replies: @Thomas, @anonymous coward 42, @Ron Unz

    , @newrouter
    @The Z Blog

    >The whole point is the public act of piety.<

    or payback to unions whose contracts are linked to the minimum wage

  6. Let’s review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years’ seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15×29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that’s $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along…

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Dr. X


    "In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm."
     
    I can imagine worse things than becoming like France.

    Replies: @pyrrhus, @27 year old

    , @anonn
    @Dr. X

    Just think, if the workers aren't paid at all, we'll all be billionaires! Because Free Market!

    Sorry, nobody buys the lies of neoliberalism anymore. Why is it you see Mexicans trying to make a living by undercutting your standard of living as a threat, but see plutocrats succeeding in destroying almost everyone's standard of living as the only alternative? We can build an economy that works for most of us. We have to start somewhere, and I'm glad I'm in California, where at least some of us are trying.

    , @MarkinLA
    @Dr. X

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.

    Higher wages mean less welfare for employees of businesses.

    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who's employees are all collecting welfare.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Mike Sylwester

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Dr. X


    The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours.
     
    What if they work 29 hours for one employer, and 29 hours for another? Which one offers the fellow the health plan?
    , @Anonymous
    @Dr. X

    I don't see the problem. Employers just won't hire anyone who can't add value at a rate of at least $15/hr. If those folks are illegal, they need to go back from whence they came. If they are ours, they'll have to live off of drug dealing, welfare, disability, etc. which is probably what they are already doing. Maybe we'll once again see customer service staff that can actually speak English. Imagine that!

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Dr. X


    In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.
     
    Well that would be an improvement on every count including the large reduction in unemployment. Throw in French cuisine and I am with you. You are using the leetle gray cells, mon ami!
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Dr. X

    I read an article not long ago where they mentioned how all sorts of jobs in the future will be mechanized out of existence or greatly scaled back. It included jobs you wouldn't normally think of in this context, like Accounting, for example. Add increasing populations into the mix, and one of two things (or a mix of both) becomes inevitable; 1. A massive expansion of the welfare state, 2. A greatly shortened workweek, like your France example. Oh, there is a third option of course; a plutocracy of about 5% of the population living comfotably, with the remaining 95% in third world squalor. I'll take the French option any day of the week. The free-marketers and libertarians have to realize that their pipe dream of near 100% employment and near zero dependency on the government is just as far-fetched as the communist utopia is.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    , @Romanian
    @Dr. X

    Wasn't it Ron Unz's point that the minimum wage hike would dry up the supply of jobs for illegals and make them go back home?

  7. Private right of action (lawsuits, in other words) will fill in the gaps in California if public enforcement is lacking. There’s reasons you regularly see billboards for lawyers seeking wage and hour plaintiffs on buses, etc. A lot of these cases allow for class certification, kickback agreements aren’t legally enforceable (obviously), and wage, hour and working conditions lawsuits allow for recovery of attorney’s fees in California (a significant economic incentive for lawyers to find clients). Cal. Labor Code § 1194. Simply paying less than the minimum wage is a fairly easy thing to prove, relative to most employment law cases. Most wage & hour cases involve harder to prove claims like not giving meal and rest breaks, overtime, salaried employees, independent contractor vs. employee status, etc.

    Cases like the Gulen cult, there are cultural and religious strictures that probably keep the followers from suing the imam, as well as probably threats of immigration consequences (they likely sponsor the visas). Illegals in California aren’t likely to face the same immigration consequences (they’re illegal anyway, and California state government won’t generally bother about that issue), and doubtful they’ll care enough about the crooked Persian business owner they were working for three years ago to forgo even a few hundred bucks as a class action claimant.

    Granted, California’s court system is massively overloaded and a lot of dodgy employers can always declare bankruptcy or hide assets.

    • Agree: Pseudonymic Handle
  8. higher wages will drive out the riff raff to other states.

    it’s what blue elites want.

    many small businesses will move to texas and arizona.

    and low wage workers seeking jobs will go there.

    CA will turn more elite.

  9. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    “In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.”

    I can imagine worse things than becoming like France.

    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    @Luke Lea

    France isn't so great these days, have you been there lately?

    , @27 year old
    @Luke Lea

    Hell, France would like to become more like France these days

  10. Steve,

    I have been reading you for a loong time. I think you actually thread jacked your own post. The question is will Cali be able to enforce a $15 min wage. The answer of course is no.

    California already has a huge grey economy. It will just be more flouting of laws.

  11. @Luke Lea
    @Dr. X


    "In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm."
     
    I can imagine worse things than becoming like France.

    Replies: @pyrrhus, @27 year old

    France isn’t so great these days, have you been there lately?

  12. @The Z Blog
    This strikes me as just another aspect of anarcho-tyranny. The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner, nor do they intend to aggressively enforce these laws. The whole point is the public act of piety. Displaying empathy for the downtrodden is still a part of their ethics, but they no longer really know who is the downtrodden. It really does not matter anyway. They just want the moment.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @newrouter

    The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner,

    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his “severance package.” State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    At least that’s how it works in Maryland. Immigrant rights groups actively solicit wage cases.

    • Replies: @Thomas
    @Paul Mendez

    I made the same point above. A hidden macrotrend in the background is that the recession saw a lot of liberal arts grads going to law school (from roughly 2008 until about 2014) until the profession got oversaturated and word got out that law school was a raw deal. So there are a lot of lawyers under 40 out there now, especially in California, looking for work and willing to work for the potential of a fee award.

    , @anonymous coward 42
    @Paul Mendez

    I totally agree with Paul's point. Anecdotally, I write software for agriculture. They don't care a wit about an illegal invader working in the fields. They do care religiously about breaks, overtime, and minimum wage because the morons who think that $15/hr won't reduce the number of jobs are the ones enforcing it.

    , @Ron Unz
    @Paul Mendez


    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his “severance package.” State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.
     
    This agrees with everything I've read elsewhere and I think is exactly correct.

    A key factor is that although immigration violations are widely regarded as "victimless crimes" and hence not enforced, not paying your workers what they are legally owed is considered wage-theft and is strictly enforced. Furthermore, while an employer can claim he was "fooled" by obviously fraudulant documents, it's harder for him to claim he "forgot" to pay his workers their required wages.

    One way of increasing MW compliance to 100% would be to prosecute underpayment violations as actual financial theft, leading to harsh prison sentences.

    In the hypothetical example Steve cites, an employer informally requires that his worker will "kick back" $5/hr of his $15/hr MW job. Okay. Then after a couple of months, the worker threatens to call the cops on his employee and have the unfortunate small businessman sent to state prison for five years unless he receives a payment of $25,000 in exchange for his silence. After one or two stories like this got around, no employer would ever take the risk of deliberately underpaying his workers again.

    I think the Democrats and unions which dominate Sacramento would be pretty happy to pass such very harsh MW enforcement measures just so long as the MSM and FoxNews didn't denounce them as anti-business lunatics.

    Personally, I think $15/hr is fine for expensive CA cities like SF and LA, but is too high on a statewide basis, even with a 2022 phase-in. However, once good ideas get going politically, they often develop a momentum of their own, and are sometimes taken a little too far.

    Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

  13. If there is a private cause of action with attorney’s fees there will be enforcement. This sort of thing already happens and with the spread on the value of work v price of work…well the taco shops are going to be buying a few plaintiff’s lawyers greens fees.

  14. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    They’ll ignore it in those areas where they ignore it now, in the cash economy. Smaller non-chain restaurants pay cooks and cleanup people the local going rate in cash, the same holds true for individual home repair and painting, yard work, etc. Also, babysitters and in-home care for elderly parents of people who work yet need to hire someone on the cheap since they are not wealthy. Law or no law in some cases regular working people have to find a way to get these things taken care of; there’ll always be a need for lower cost help off the books.

  15. As others have already commented the minimum wage law is one of those classic political oxymoron contradictions. Bring in cheap labor only to force small business to pay them a higher wage. Kinda like ban abortions, but execute murderers. And just like high cigarette taxes, it will encourage less then legal ways around it.

    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let’s say at the national level $16K a year. You’d have to get rid of every welfare/needs based program, eliminate all tax breaks for poor, middle and rich earners to pay for it, but mathematically it appears it could be done.

    Sure, many are going to band together to rent a house and sit on the sofa all day and smoke pot, but a percent of the population already does that. What I like about the concept is employer’s will have to come up with a wage that’s an incentive to get them off the couch and come to work. Think about it.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @George Taylor


    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let’s say at the national level $16K a year.
     
    How's about instead just guarantee everyone a make work job at the minimum wage--say $8 (to match you 16K)--which can be anything at all down to picking up trash on the road. It achieves the same result--a floor, which private employers must beat to get employees--but is much less socially damaging.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Diversity Heretic

  16. @The Z Blog
    This strikes me as just another aspect of anarcho-tyranny. The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner, nor do they intend to aggressively enforce these laws. The whole point is the public act of piety. Displaying empathy for the downtrodden is still a part of their ethics, but they no longer really know who is the downtrodden. It really does not matter anyway. They just want the moment.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @newrouter

    >The whole point is the public act of piety.<

    or payback to unions whose contracts are linked to the minimum wage

  17. One recurring theme here is how California’s big growth industry, cell phone software, often relies on using novel ideas to avoid regulations that increase the price of traditional industries (e.g. Uber avoids cities’ taxi regulations, Airbnb avoids hotel regulations).

    I wonder what apps the tech geniuses will come up with to help California’s employers avoid paying their employees $15 per hour. Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

    • Replies: @rod1963
    @a Newsreader

    Do what the newspapers do for paper delivery men, make them contractors and pay them by the paper they deliver plus 35 cents a mile. It's nasty though, you have to pay for your own health insurance, disability, be responsible for finding a replacement when you're sick, oh yeah you are docked $15.00 for each paper you fail to deliver.

    You actually end up with less than minimum wage.

    And if you quit without giving a 30 day notice they take you to court.

    I know I tried for a gig some 15 years ago, thought it was a nice part time money maker - anything was better than that.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Rob McX
    @a Newsreader


    Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

     

    Interesting point, and it applies both to the minimum wage and the prosecution of those who employ illegal aliens. If an employee can be legally reclassified as a self-employed contractor, the question of whether he's an illegal immigrant will be entirely his own problem not his employer's. Same applies to his pay - it's a price for work done, not an hourly wage.
    , @Bill jones
    @a Newsreader

    gigs
    think hollywood

  18. I just ran payrolls for a used car dealership. Lots of the employees are making minimum wage ($10/hr) for not selling cars. I wonder what will happen to them eventually. I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off. Or people will be hired to just work weekends and holidays.

    I really like commissions, low wages and unpaid internships for the opportunities they offer to those without experience. But the good liberals in our governance hate them and ban them. They think they’re going to make everything better, but it won’t work out that way.

    Remember this advice for just about everything: All the bad stuff you’re worried about will probably happen, and the good stuff you’re hoping for probably won’t.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @stillCARealist

    I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off.

    Every dealership operates that way. They carry you for awhile and see if you have what it takes. As soon as you show you aren't making progress, they cut you. I doubt raising the minimum wage will have any effect.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    , @Anonymous
    @stillCARealist

    Can't we just get rid of car salesmen altogether and just sell cars like most other things, with a simple posted price? Costco sells cars this way. Car salesman really should be an obsolete vocation.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @MarkinLA

  19. @Paul Mendez
    @The Z Blog


    The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner,
     
    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his "severance package." State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    At least that's how it works in Maryland. Immigrant rights groups actively solicit wage cases.

    Replies: @Thomas, @anonymous coward 42, @Ron Unz

    I made the same point above. A hidden macrotrend in the background is that the recession saw a lot of liberal arts grads going to law school (from roughly 2008 until about 2014) until the profession got oversaturated and word got out that law school was a raw deal. So there are a lot of lawyers under 40 out there now, especially in California, looking for work and willing to work for the potential of a fee award.

  20. Minimum wage is a direct, inelegant way of addressing our rigged economy because it gives businesses wiggle room; from outsourcing to lower headcount, senior executives have many options to respond to increased costs other than by cutting their own gigantic, unwarranted salaries, which largely contributes to the problem in the first place.

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending. When will rank-and-file GOP abandon their trickle-down econ fantasy – or do they just like the golden showers?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @ILL-iterate


    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.
     
    How about raising them to 103%, like the Swedes once had, only without the loopholes? That'll shut all this nefarious activity down for good. No one will invest a dime, thereby preventing anyone from making a dime.

    As for "infrastructure", how many Gravina Island Bridges do we need?

    Replies: @27 year old

  21. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    Just think, if the workers aren’t paid at all, we’ll all be billionaires! Because Free Market!

    Sorry, nobody buys the lies of neoliberalism anymore. Why is it you see Mexicans trying to make a living by undercutting your standard of living as a threat, but see plutocrats succeeding in destroying almost everyone’s standard of living as the only alternative? We can build an economy that works for most of us. We have to start somewhere, and I’m glad I’m in California, where at least some of us are trying.

  22. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.

    Higher wages mean less welfare for employees of businesses.

    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who’s employees are all collecting welfare.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @MarkinLA


    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who’s employees are all collecting welfare.
     
    Hey, everybody, what say we raise Mark's personal minimum wage to $75 an hour? Any boss caught paying him a penny less will have his business closed down. Fair enough?

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @MarkinLA

    , @Mike Sylwester
    @MarkinLA

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    Most of the Scientific Progressives have been estimating that raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $15.00 will increase the price of a Big Mac only about five cents -- to $4.05.

    Why do you estimate that the price will rise an entire 25 cents? Maybe you aren't taking into consideration that the wage increase will reduce employee turn-over. In fact, the Big Mac price might fall.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MarkinLA

  23. Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.

    Doesn’t work.

    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.

    I’ll see if I can find a study.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Paul Mendez


    The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation...
     
    ...or, in every country other than the US, simply leave.

    But for us, the Liz Taylor law chases you around the world. Even if you renounce your citizenship.
    , @Paul Mendez
    @Paul Mendez

    Graph showing how tax receipts are not influenced by changing marginal tax rates for top income bracket:

    http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/income-tax-receipts

    Anyone working before Reagan's tax reform in 1986 (?) may remember all the perks you could negotiate in lieu of higher wages, as well as all the tax-sheltered investment products being peddled.

    , @ILL-iterate
    @Paul Mendez


    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.
     
    Opting for a tax shelter is just rolling the dice with the IRS these days; fine by me, I've audited several. There's tangible satisfaction to creating a case for tax evasion and referring it to the fraud dept. I'd prefer the non-wage compensation option because it means the company spent the money on something - travel, fancy dinners, etc - and put the money back into the economy rather than hoarding offshore or in an over-invested stock market.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.
     
    No patriot should have to live in a country where capitalism redistributes the wealth created by everyone to senior executives and the upper class who then claim taxation is theft, but we do.
  24. @stillCARealist
    I just ran payrolls for a used car dealership. Lots of the employees are making minimum wage ($10/hr) for not selling cars. I wonder what will happen to them eventually. I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off. Or people will be hired to just work weekends and holidays.

    I really like commissions, low wages and unpaid internships for the opportunities they offer to those without experience. But the good liberals in our governance hate them and ban them. They think they're going to make everything better, but it won't work out that way.

    Remember this advice for just about everything: All the bad stuff you're worried about will probably happen, and the good stuff you're hoping for probably won't.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @Anonymous

    I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off.

    Every dealership operates that way. They carry you for awhile and see if you have what it takes. As soon as you show you aren’t making progress, they cut you. I doubt raising the minimum wage will have any effect.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @MarkinLA

    They've had some employees there making the minimum for quite a while. maybe they just wash cars or do one sale or something. But there's a few that make 2 or 3k a week. For years. I think the dealership thrives on those guys (all guys) alone.

  25. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours.

    What if they work 29 hours for one employer, and 29 hours for another? Which one offers the fellow the health plan?

  26. @Paul Mendez

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.
     
    Doesn't work.

    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.

    I'll see if I can find a study.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Paul Mendez, @ILL-iterate

    The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation…

    …or, in every country other than the US, simply leave.

    But for us, the Liz Taylor law chases you around the world. Even if you renounce your citizenship.

  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    I don’t see the problem. Employers just won’t hire anyone who can’t add value at a rate of at least $15/hr. If those folks are illegal, they need to go back from whence they came. If they are ours, they’ll have to live off of drug dealing, welfare, disability, etc. which is probably what they are already doing. Maybe we’ll once again see customer service staff that can actually speak English. Imagine that!

  28. @MarkinLA
    @Dr. X

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.

    Higher wages mean less welfare for employees of businesses.

    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who's employees are all collecting welfare.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Mike Sylwester

    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who’s employees are all collecting welfare.

    Hey, everybody, what say we raise Mark’s personal minimum wage to $75 an hour? Any boss caught paying him a penny less will have his business closed down. Fair enough?

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Reg Cæsar

    I'd prefer that Mark chip in a quarter every time I buy a Big Mac.

    , @MarkinLA
    @Reg Cæsar

    Why do you want to subsidize businesses that aren't necessary or doing something for the common good? Most fast food places are staffed by adult immigrants not teenagers in high school.

  29. It’s interesting to try to total up the various potential winners and losers of a policy like the minimum wage. My take is that a higher minimum wage works, in effect and broadly speaking, as an anti-immigration measure, hitting both the illegal low-wage worker as well as the gold chains small business crowd (though how powerful an anti-immigration measure it is I couldn’t say). Higher labor costs and wages in general tend to benefit, or at least hurt the least, capital-intensive and large economy-of-scale enterprises, which can make do with fewer workers and/or have higher gross revenues per worker.

    Another hidden potential beneficiary, definitely relevant to California: Silicon Valley/IT/tech. Automation (or, looking at it another way, substitution of capital for labor) is always one answer to higher labor costs (and usually one consequence threatened by minimum wage critics: automation will replace jobs). Their low-skilled labor is off in China anyway.

    California I think may be approaching an interesting economic and demographic tipping point in general. It’s getting more expensive to live here, with the costs of housing, water, and other basics going up. Gentrification is gaining ground in California cities, more steadily in Los Angeles and more quickly in the Bay Area. And now a wage hike may make it less attractive to either run a small business and staff it with illiterate paisas from Oaxaca. All of this means of course that the rest of America, as per usual, will be getting what California pioneered over the last 30 years while California maybe moves towards whatever’s next.

  30. iSteveFan says:

    Can any California readers let us know how the immigrant rights groups feel about this issue.

    In the past many on the conservative side of the issue have argued that increasing the minimum wage might be effective in cutting down on the hiring of illegals since it would eliminate their wage advantage. They argued that an employer could feign ignorance that some worker’s SSN was fake, but that they cannot do the same with the minimum wage. Therefore their ability to cheat, (assuming the kickbacks you described don’t take place), would be greatly diminished and illegal labor would be priced the same as legal labor.

    If this is indeed the case, then wouldn’t immigrant rights groups seek to oppose such a minimum wage hike knowing that it might curtail the immivasion and actually encourage some amigos to go home if they cannot get employment?

    So can any CA resident let us know if this is even part of the discussion?

    • Replies: @Thomas
    @iSteveFan

    SEIU and the other unions have gone broadly pro-immigration (including illegal) over the last few decades. Obviously they support the minimum wage, though not on immigration grounds. Mostly they've been looking for more workers to organize and more voters.

    Two things:

    First, there aren't really "immigrant rights groups" of any particular influence, organization, or resources devoted to that singular issue. There are only more broadly leftist groups (like unions) and politicians that support it collaterally, as part of a broader agenda, and a handful of spokespeople and astroturf groups that are there for the media (and serve as props for the former).

    Second, leftist thinking on either immigration (make that thinking on immigration in general) or the minimum wage never really gets that far as to thinking through consequences. It's about feeling, rather than thinking. Higher minimum wage = good. Immigration = good. Good + good ≠ bad. That's about as far as the thinking goes.

  31. @Paul Mendez

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.
     
    Doesn't work.

    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.

    I'll see if I can find a study.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Paul Mendez, @ILL-iterate

    Graph showing how tax receipts are not influenced by changing marginal tax rates for top income bracket:

    http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/income-tax-receipts

    Anyone working before Reagan’s tax reform in 1986 (?) may remember all the perks you could negotiate in lieu of higher wages, as well as all the tax-sheltered investment products being peddled.

  32. iSteveFan says:

    On a side note let’s at least give credit to the dems in CA pushing this $15 minimum wage. I don’t know if it will work, or what its consequences will ultimately be. But I know that a lot of the democrat base has been pushing for such a law, and now a democrat body is giving them what they want.

    It would be nice if the GOP would do the same to its base, and by its base I don’t mean the donor class. I mean its voters.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @iSteveFan


    But I know that a lot of the democrat base has been pushing for such a law, and now a democrat body is giving them what they want.
     
    Whiter neighbors?
  33. @Reg Cæsar
    @MarkinLA


    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who’s employees are all collecting welfare.
     
    Hey, everybody, what say we raise Mark's personal minimum wage to $75 an hour? Any boss caught paying him a penny less will have his business closed down. Fair enough?

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @MarkinLA

    I’d prefer that Mark chip in a quarter every time I buy a Big Mac.

  34. @ILL-iterate
    Minimum wage is a direct, inelegant way of addressing our rigged economy because it gives businesses wiggle room; from outsourcing to lower headcount, senior executives have many options to respond to increased costs other than by cutting their own gigantic, unwarranted salaries, which largely contributes to the problem in the first place.

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending. When will rank-and-file GOP abandon their trickle-down econ fantasy - or do they just like the golden showers?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.

    How about raising them to 103%, like the Swedes once had, only without the loopholes? That’ll shut all this nefarious activity down for good. No one will invest a dime, thereby preventing anyone from making a dime.

    As for “infrastructure”, how many Gravina Island Bridges do we need?

    • Replies: @27 year old
    @Reg Cæsar

    There are a lot of bridges that need re-building in this country. Most of them are in places you haven't heard of where everyone is white and moderate to low income.

  35. @iSteveFan
    Can any California readers let us know how the immigrant rights groups feel about this issue.

    In the past many on the conservative side of the issue have argued that increasing the minimum wage might be effective in cutting down on the hiring of illegals since it would eliminate their wage advantage. They argued that an employer could feign ignorance that some worker's SSN was fake, but that they cannot do the same with the minimum wage. Therefore their ability to cheat, (assuming the kickbacks you described don't take place), would be greatly diminished and illegal labor would be priced the same as legal labor.

    If this is indeed the case, then wouldn't immigrant rights groups seek to oppose such a minimum wage hike knowing that it might curtail the immivasion and actually encourage some amigos to go home if they cannot get employment?

    So can any CA resident let us know if this is even part of the discussion?

    Replies: @Thomas

    SEIU and the other unions have gone broadly pro-immigration (including illegal) over the last few decades. Obviously they support the minimum wage, though not on immigration grounds. Mostly they’ve been looking for more workers to organize and more voters.

    Two things:

    First, there aren’t really “immigrant rights groups” of any particular influence, organization, or resources devoted to that singular issue. There are only more broadly leftist groups (like unions) and politicians that support it collaterally, as part of a broader agenda, and a handful of spokespeople and astroturf groups that are there for the media (and serve as props for the former).

    Second, leftist thinking on either immigration (make that thinking on immigration in general) or the minimum wage never really gets that far as to thinking through consequences. It’s about feeling, rather than thinking. Higher minimum wage = good. Immigration = good. Good + good ≠ bad. That’s about as far as the thinking goes.

  36. @iSteveFan
    On a side note let's at least give credit to the dems in CA pushing this $15 minimum wage. I don't know if it will work, or what its consequences will ultimately be. But I know that a lot of the democrat base has been pushing for such a law, and now a democrat body is giving them what they want.

    It would be nice if the GOP would do the same to its base, and by its base I don't mean the donor class. I mean its voters.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    But I know that a lot of the democrat base has been pushing for such a law, and now a democrat body is giving them what they want.

    Whiter neighbors?

  37. @Anonymous
    The whole Gulen thing is a US defense-intelligence connected outfit. Graham Fuller, the CIA guy connected to the Boston Bombing, is also connected to the Gulen thing.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2011/01/islamic_group_is_cia_front_ex-.html

    A memoir by a top former Turkish intelligence official claims that a worldwide moderate Islamic movement based in Pennsylvania has been providing cover for the CIA since the mid-1990s.

    The memoir, roughly rendered in English as “Witness to Revolution and Near Anarchy,” by retired Turkish intelligence official Osman Nuri Gundes, says the religious-tolerance movement, led by an influential former Turkish imam by the name of Fethullah Gulen, has 600 schools and 4 million followers around the world.

    In the 1990s, Gundes alleges, the movement "sheltered 130 CIA agents" at its schools in Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan alone, according to a report on his memoir Wednesday by the Paris-based Intelligence Online newsletter.
     

    Replies: @Lugash

    Speaking of education, schooling and terrorism, Graham E. Fuller’s son-in-law’s nephew did a decent job on his US Citizenship Test:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/02/28/homeland-security-releases-immigration-files-deceased-marathon-bomber-and-friend/Byftvg8GyYhe8i431mMmmM/story.html\

    *****************************
    On Jan. 23, 2013, immigration officer David McCormack interviewed Tsarnaev and tested his English and knowledge of US history and government. He answered six civics questions correctly to pass: He knew that Africans had been slaves, that there are 27 constitutional amendments, and that the United States bought Louisiana from the French in 1803. He also identified “Joe Biden” as the vice president, said Congress makes federal laws, and that the colonists fought the British over “high taxes.” He correctly read a question about voting and wrote the answer: “Citizens can vote.”

    His sole error was to say that the federal court, and not the Supreme Court, is the highest court in the United States.
    *****************************

    *****************************
    But instead of marking the box that said, “Congratulations! Your application has been recommended for approval,” the officer checked the next box, which said, “A decision cannot yet be made about your application.”
    *****************************

  38. It is easier to understand when you realize the minimum wage also functions as the maximum wage for illegal workers working off the books. In other words, illegals just got a $5/hr raise. I’m sure they will be properly grateful.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Anonymous

    Good point.

  39. @stillCARealist
    I just ran payrolls for a used car dealership. Lots of the employees are making minimum wage ($10/hr) for not selling cars. I wonder what will happen to them eventually. I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off. Or people will be hired to just work weekends and holidays.

    I really like commissions, low wages and unpaid internships for the opportunities they offer to those without experience. But the good liberals in our governance hate them and ban them. They think they're going to make everything better, but it won't work out that way.

    Remember this advice for just about everything: All the bad stuff you're worried about will probably happen, and the good stuff you're hoping for probably won't.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @Anonymous

    Can’t we just get rid of car salesmen altogether and just sell cars like most other things, with a simple posted price? Costco sells cars this way. Car salesman really should be an obsolete vocation.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    @Anonymous

    Car dealerships survive because most car buyers are dumb and because the dealers are highly organized. People mostly don't want the one price model, they prefer to maintain a sense of larceny, and car salesmen are people who are good at letting the mark think he's going over on the dealership when in fact it's the other way around.

    A new manufacturer selling direct at a low, non-negotiable price would make objective business sense. Sears Roebuck tried that with the Allstate car, and it failed, because Sears didn't take trade-ins (many suburban people simply refuse to sell a car themelves even if the cash offered is far over the dealership's trade in offer, a fact I discovered when trying to buy a truck whose owner turned in to the Obama program), and was not adept at financing its Allstates (which were rebaged Henry J's). But also because people figured Sears was overcharging, because they wanted what the sign said.

    The design cost of such a new vehicle could be cut by simply using existing, proven components available from subcontractors off the shelf as much as possible, and CAD/CAM makes much of the skilled design needed to make tooling. However, the EPA and NHTSA regulations would mean the certification costs would probably be many tens of millions, meaning it would be an expensive project to "run up the flagpole and see who salutes it".

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @MarkinLA
    @Anonymous

    Saturn started out that way and it was seemingly popular. Later they stopped doing it.

  40. @Anonymous
    It is easier to understand when you realize the minimum wage also functions as the maximum wage for illegal workers working off the books. In other words, illegals just got a $5/hr raise. I'm sure they will be properly grateful.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

    Good point.

  41. You can’t have a high minwage and mass immigration at the same time, because the latter makes the former a dead letter. The only real way to raise wages is to rig the supply and demand curves in favor of labor, and by far the best ways to do that are restricting immigration and artificially restricting the rate of new labor supply in the legal domestic market, i.e. organized labor, aka labor unions.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @countenance

    I made this point in an earlier posting on this topic. I know a guy who was here illegally and was working under the table for a contractor, himself an immigrant from the 70's. The minimum wage laws didn't matter at all to his situation. Neither did worker's comp or OT laws or sick time or anything else. He was willing to do the work for an agreed upon sum. That's all that mattered to either party. We must control immigration first and foremost.

    And to the poster who said people who brag about not eating at McDonald's also brag about not watching TV: That's cause they both suck, not cause we're any better than anybody else.

  42. Setting a high minimum wage will probably lead to a slight increase in unemployment, but that will be about it. Stong economies with high minimum wages (like Denmark) tend to have unemployment rates of about 5-6 percent. Europe’s high unemployment rate isn’t due to its high minimum wages, but it’s labour market inflexibility – it’s way to hard to fire people and few European workers are temps or workers on flexible contracts. Plus the welfare systems tend to be very bureaucratic and inflexible and discourage marginally employable people from doing temporary or part-time jobs

    The main losers from minimum wage laws are low-profit small businesses, such as ethnic restaurants. Once you establish a legal miminum wage, Sanjay may consider seeing a lawyer if you pay him four dollars an hour to wait on tables.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @unpc downunder


    Setting a high minimum wage will probably lead to a slight increase in unemployment, but that will be about it.
     
    The higher minimum wage is supported by many readers here not as an end in itself, but as a means of increasing unemployment and thus reducing immigration. So if it only increases unemployment slightly or not at all, it's not really doing its job.

    Replies: @unpc downunder

  43. I think the arguments against high minimum wages are overblown. Australia has a $17 minimum wage and its doing just fine.

    France’s primary problem is overregulation of the labor market and above all really just a certain ethnoreligiously specific underclass that is averse to work.

    That said, I personally prefer a universal basic income to raising the minimum wage.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Australia has multiple minimum wage levels, and they also have much less of the personal service economy that Americans expect and take for granted.

  44. @MarkinLA
    @Dr. X

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.

    Higher wages mean less welfare for employees of businesses.

    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who's employees are all collecting welfare.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Mike Sylwester

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    Most of the Scientific Progressives have been estimating that raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $15.00 will increase the price of a Big Mac only about five cents — to $4.05.

    Why do you estimate that the price will rise an entire 25 cents? Maybe you aren’t taking into consideration that the wage increase will reduce employee turn-over. In fact, the Big Mac price might fall.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Mike Sylwester

    The Big Mac hasn't changed in size since it was developed in the 70s. It may have been big back then, but it's a really small burger now as food portions and burgers have gotten a lot bigger. So it has inflated in price a lot more than the mere price would indicate.

    , @MarkinLA
    @Mike Sylwester

    Just guessing on the safe side.

  45. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @unpc downunder
    Setting a high minimum wage will probably lead to a slight increase in unemployment, but that will be about it. Stong economies with high minimum wages (like Denmark) tend to have unemployment rates of about 5-6 percent. Europe's high unemployment rate isn't due to its high minimum wages, but it's labour market inflexibility - it's way to hard to fire people and few European workers are temps or workers on flexible contracts. Plus the welfare systems tend to be very bureaucratic and inflexible and discourage marginally employable people from doing temporary or part-time jobs

    The main losers from minimum wage laws are low-profit small businesses, such as ethnic restaurants. Once you establish a legal miminum wage, Sanjay may consider seeing a lawyer if you pay him four dollars an hour to wait on tables.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Setting a high minimum wage will probably lead to a slight increase in unemployment, but that will be about it.

    The higher minimum wage is supported by many readers here not as an end in itself, but as a means of increasing unemployment and thus reducing immigration. So if it only increases unemployment slightly or not at all, it’s not really doing its job.

    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    @Anonymous

    I'm talking about the unemployment rate for legal workers, not illegal ones. The unemployment rate for illegal workers (such as overstayers) will probably increase as it's more likely employers will be reluctant to hire them.

    My comment was in response to the classical liberal argument that raising the minimum wage creates high levels of unemployment among legal workers. That might have been true a hundred years ago but it doesn't really apply today.

  46. @MarkinLA
    @stillCARealist

    I predict the sales forces will dwindle to those who can really sell and all the marginals will drop off.

    Every dealership operates that way. They carry you for awhile and see if you have what it takes. As soon as you show you aren't making progress, they cut you. I doubt raising the minimum wage will have any effect.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    They’ve had some employees there making the minimum for quite a while. maybe they just wash cars or do one sale or something. But there’s a few that make 2 or 3k a week. For years. I think the dealership thrives on those guys (all guys) alone.

  47. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Well that would be an improvement on every count including the large reduction in unemployment. Throw in French cuisine and I am with you. You are using the leetle gray cells, mon ami!

  48. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Mike Sylwester
    @MarkinLA

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    Most of the Scientific Progressives have been estimating that raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $15.00 will increase the price of a Big Mac only about five cents -- to $4.05.

    Why do you estimate that the price will rise an entire 25 cents? Maybe you aren't taking into consideration that the wage increase will reduce employee turn-over. In fact, the Big Mac price might fall.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MarkinLA

    The Big Mac hasn’t changed in size since it was developed in the 70s. It may have been big back then, but it’s a really small burger now as food portions and burgers have gotten a lot bigger. So it has inflated in price a lot more than the mere price would indicate.

  49. Where is the spirit of free trade?

    A lot of California residents travel across borders into Nevada or Mexico to enjoy legal and, in the case of Mexico, cheap prostitution.

    Mexicans come north because they can make far more money cutting lawns in California. The money saved by Californians using cheap Mexicans to cut grass can be spent on trips to Tijuana.

    Much of the money earned by Mexicans goes straight into the coffers of AT&T. Many white Californians make a good living working for AT&T and many Californian retirees draw dividends from owning stock in AT&T, What goes around, comes around.

    Let the invisible hand do its work unhindered!

  50. Why are you people eating at McD’s anyway? Don’t you have In and Outs or Chik-Fil-As wherever you’re at?

    McD’s is pleb tier food. Not even good for evoking childhood memories.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack Hanson

    I love the fast food snobs who make a big show about not eating at McDonald's and eating at some other fast food joint instead. As if there's a real difference. They're like the internet addicts who proudly proclaim that they don't watch TV, or better yet, don't even own a TV. Often they're the same people.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @Hapalong Cassidy

  51. I think a lot of businesses will cut back on marginal shifts. Sorry stoners, you might not be able to get your queso-lupa at 2am . As such shifts — indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California — are filled by immigrant labor, that’s a good thing.

    This, I believe, is the point Ron Unz has been making for a while.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @M_Young

    "As such shifts — indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California — are filled by immigrant labor, that’s a good thing."

    In California most Chick-fil-A fast food employees do not have immigrant accents, so I take it most of them were born in The United States. They also tend to be Whiter than other fast food chains. The last time I was at a Chick-fil-A in Marin County, there was a male employee with blond hair and blue eyes.

    Blond haired and blue eyed employees are almost non existant at Taco Bell, KFC, Burger King, Subway, Popeyes, Wendy's and McDonald's locations in California which are overwhelmingly staffed by either Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, or Filipinos.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Stan Adams

  52. @a Newsreader
    One recurring theme here is how California's big growth industry, cell phone software, often relies on using novel ideas to avoid regulations that increase the price of traditional industries (e.g. Uber avoids cities' taxi regulations, Airbnb avoids hotel regulations).

    I wonder what apps the tech geniuses will come up with to help California's employers avoid paying their employees $15 per hour. Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

    Replies: @rod1963, @Rob McX, @Bill jones

    Do what the newspapers do for paper delivery men, make them contractors and pay them by the paper they deliver plus 35 cents a mile. It’s nasty though, you have to pay for your own health insurance, disability, be responsible for finding a replacement when you’re sick, oh yeah you are docked $15.00 for each paper you fail to deliver.

    You actually end up with less than minimum wage.

    And if you quit without giving a 30 day notice they take you to court.

    I know I tried for a gig some 15 years ago, thought it was a nice part time money maker – anything was better than that.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @rod1963

    Not to mention the LAPD shoots your newspaper delivery truck a whole bunch of times because they think you are Christopher Dorner ...

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

  53. @rod1963
    @a Newsreader

    Do what the newspapers do for paper delivery men, make them contractors and pay them by the paper they deliver plus 35 cents a mile. It's nasty though, you have to pay for your own health insurance, disability, be responsible for finding a replacement when you're sick, oh yeah you are docked $15.00 for each paper you fail to deliver.

    You actually end up with less than minimum wage.

    And if you quit without giving a 30 day notice they take you to court.

    I know I tried for a gig some 15 years ago, thought it was a nice part time money maker - anything was better than that.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Not to mention the LAPD shoots your newspaper delivery truck a whole bunch of times because they think you are Christopher Dorner …

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Steve Sailer

    Boy, you remember everything

  54. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack Hanson
    Why are you people eating at McD's anyway? Don't you have In and Outs or Chik-Fil-As wherever you're at?

    McD's is pleb tier food. Not even good for evoking childhood memories.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I love the fast food snobs who make a big show about not eating at McDonald’s and eating at some other fast food joint instead. As if there’s a real difference. They’re like the internet addicts who proudly proclaim that they don’t watch TV, or better yet, don’t even own a TV. Often they’re the same people.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @Anonymous

    Double plus agree!

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Anonymous

    Ironically, since all criticism of the fast food industry tends to hit McDonalds first and hardest, they may be one of the healthiest and best run of the fast food joints.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  55. @a Newsreader
    One recurring theme here is how California's big growth industry, cell phone software, often relies on using novel ideas to avoid regulations that increase the price of traditional industries (e.g. Uber avoids cities' taxi regulations, Airbnb avoids hotel regulations).

    I wonder what apps the tech geniuses will come up with to help California's employers avoid paying their employees $15 per hour. Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

    Replies: @rod1963, @Rob McX, @Bill jones

    Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

    Interesting point, and it applies both to the minimum wage and the prosecution of those who employ illegal aliens. If an employee can be legally reclassified as a self-employed contractor, the question of whether he’s an illegal immigrant will be entirely his own problem not his employer’s. Same applies to his pay – it’s a price for work done, not an hourly wage.

  56. I think the law will be easy to enforce. By 2022, I doubt there will be a single politically conservative employer left in the state.

  57. Big companies will have to follow the law, but a huge fraction of small businessmen in California these days are Men in Gold Chains who think laws are only for chumps.

    I knew when I started reading this post that the Men in Gold Chains would make an appearance.

  58. This Gülen crowd are a weird bunch. It’s hard to have much confidence in an organisation that’s switched its loyalties so much in the past, even if you’re the CIA. And who are the clients for their charter schools? There can’t be that much of a demand for institutions that teach Turkish values.

  59. @Anonymous
    @Jack Hanson

    I love the fast food snobs who make a big show about not eating at McDonald's and eating at some other fast food joint instead. As if there's a real difference. They're like the internet addicts who proudly proclaim that they don't watch TV, or better yet, don't even own a TV. Often they're the same people.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Double plus agree!

  60. @Mike Sylwester
    I don't get the idea that California should raise the minimum wage to $15 while importing huge numbers of uneducated peasants, who don't speak English, from Guatemala and Honduras.

    However, lots of Scientific Progressives insist that it's a a great idea. Go figure.

    Replies: @The Practical Conservative

    It’s a well-spoken white 20something employment act. That’s mostly how it works in WA/OR, where the minimum wages are already much higher than 7.25/hr.

  61. @Anatoly Karlin
    I think the arguments against high minimum wages are overblown. Australia has a $17 minimum wage and its doing just fine.

    France's primary problem is overregulation of the labor market and above all really just a certain ethnoreligiously specific underclass that is averse to work.

    That said, I personally prefer a universal basic income to raising the minimum wage.

    Replies: @The Practical Conservative

    Australia has multiple minimum wage levels, and they also have much less of the personal service economy that Americans expect and take for granted.

  62. And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all. California’s not the only place where people demand and expect “high quality full day childcare” for 2-3$ per hour to a single individual.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    @The Practical Conservative


    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all.
     
    Another good point!
    , @The most deplorable one
    @The Practical Conservative

    But surely I can find people who can read packet captures and do kernel coding for $15/hr even if I have to import them from India!

    , @RadicalCenter
    @The Practical Conservative

    Those hourly rates are not even close to what we find for childcare in Los Angeles, part-day or full-day, day or night.

    Hourly rates are much, much higher, even when paying in cash to an individual off the books (yes, often middle-aged and older Mexican ladies).

    But I hope and expect that you are right about the min wage being hard to enforce on off-the-books childcare arrangements.

    Replies: @The Practical Conservative

    , @stillCARealist
    @The Practical Conservative

    two years ago i looked for drop-in day care for my 5 year old and they quoted me $7/hour. This is near Sacramento. when I asked a friend to do it instead, she looked shocked at only$7/hour. She was expecting minimum wage at least ($9/hr in 2014?).

  63. @Steve Sailer
    @rod1963

    Not to mention the LAPD shoots your newspaper delivery truck a whole bunch of times because they think you are Christopher Dorner ...

    Replies: @Paul Mendez

    Boy, you remember everything

  64. @countenance
    You can't have a high minwage and mass immigration at the same time, because the latter makes the former a dead letter. The only real way to raise wages is to rig the supply and demand curves in favor of labor, and by far the best ways to do that are restricting immigration and artificially restricting the rate of new labor supply in the legal domestic market, i.e. organized labor, aka labor unions.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    I made this point in an earlier posting on this topic. I know a guy who was here illegally and was working under the table for a contractor, himself an immigrant from the 70’s. The minimum wage laws didn’t matter at all to his situation. Neither did worker’s comp or OT laws or sick time or anything else. He was willing to do the work for an agreed upon sum. That’s all that mattered to either party. We must control immigration first and foremost.

    And to the poster who said people who brag about not eating at McDonald’s also brag about not watching TV: That’s cause they both suck, not cause we’re any better than anybody else.

  65. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    I read an article not long ago where they mentioned how all sorts of jobs in the future will be mechanized out of existence or greatly scaled back. It included jobs you wouldn’t normally think of in this context, like Accounting, for example. Add increasing populations into the mix, and one of two things (or a mix of both) becomes inevitable; 1. A massive expansion of the welfare state, 2. A greatly shortened workweek, like your France example. Oh, there is a third option of course; a plutocracy of about 5% of the population living comfotably, with the remaining 95% in third world squalor. I’ll take the French option any day of the week. The free-marketers and libertarians have to realize that their pipe dream of near 100% employment and near zero dependency on the government is just as far-fetched as the communist utopia is.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    The French model is not sustainable the way things are going.

  66. What you are missing with this comment Steve “huge fraction of small businessmen in California these days think laws are for chumps” is that the laws in CA are impossible to follow. I have owned a business in CA where to follow the laws of that industry means you pay over 100% tax. There are two important components of this being true:

    – Following the unwritten laws.
    – Charging a competitive rate for what you are doing.

    The unwritten law in CA is “you must hire illegal labor for labor intensive jobs”. This starts from point number two. If you can charge $80.00 an hour for your service and net 10% you have $8.00 per man hour wiggle room. This is assuming an illegal willing to work for $10.00 per hour. If you hire legal labor you are looking at at least $20.00 per hour for a comparable American worker. Add 50% workers comp and you immediately at $30.00 per man hour. Add other realistic costs (healthcare etc) associated with hiring the American worker and you are ending up around $45.00 per hour. To make the same $8.00 per hour per man hour you now need to charge $117.00 per hour. You will have exactly zero customers.

    This is just one part of the structure too. There are literally dozens of taxing groups that come knocking looking for money. In CA they might not frequently take the form of straight corruption (though I have definitely dealt with blatant corruption in the state) but the structure is clearly systemically corrupt. I routinely get tax demands for things I have paid, the state knows I have paid, but they are hoping I have lost the paperwork because the taxation was so far in the past. “Send us the front and back of this check or give us $2k” for something six years ago is not first world behavior.

    Without illegal workers becoming actually illegal there is no chance of changing this. The structure itself is corrupt.

  67. @The Practical Conservative
    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all. California's not the only place where people demand and expect "high quality full day childcare" for 2-3$ per hour to a single individual.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @The most deplorable one, @RadicalCenter, @stillCARealist

    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all.

    Another good point!

  68. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @The Practical Conservative
    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all. California's not the only place where people demand and expect "high quality full day childcare" for 2-3$ per hour to a single individual.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @The most deplorable one, @RadicalCenter, @stillCARealist

    But surely I can find people who can read packet captures and do kernel coding for $15/hr even if I have to import them from India!

  69. @Anonymous
    @Jack Hanson

    I love the fast food snobs who make a big show about not eating at McDonald's and eating at some other fast food joint instead. As if there's a real difference. They're like the internet addicts who proudly proclaim that they don't watch TV, or better yet, don't even own a TV. Often they're the same people.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Ironically, since all criticism of the fast food industry tends to hit McDonalds first and hardest, they may be one of the healthiest and best run of the fast food joints.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    The Clown has a higher gross than the next 3 fast food chains combined:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-20-fast-food-chains-that-rake-in-the-most-money-2015-8

    But the place that the lefties love to hate has the highest customer satisfaction. They also, in my experience, have the best food and the whitest staff:

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/30/pf/fast-food-customer-satisfaction/

    The discussion of immigration, fast food and Cali only makes me see our real future, as described in the first chapter of Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash.

    Failure is not an option for the Deliverator!

  70. My wife and I are now in our early 70s and live on our pensions and SS and small investments, but we both still work part time mostly to interact with people we like and to keep ourselves busy. We are healthy, drug free and dependable. We also are customer service savvy and honest. I think at $15 per hour we both look for 20 hr. per week part time jobs and pocket about $2000 per month between us. We then drive our new leased 5 series BWMs to our jobs at Burger King. Seems good to me.

  71. @Anonymous
    @stillCARealist

    Can't we just get rid of car salesmen altogether and just sell cars like most other things, with a simple posted price? Costco sells cars this way. Car salesman really should be an obsolete vocation.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @MarkinLA

    Car dealerships survive because most car buyers are dumb and because the dealers are highly organized. People mostly don’t want the one price model, they prefer to maintain a sense of larceny, and car salesmen are people who are good at letting the mark think he’s going over on the dealership when in fact it’s the other way around.

    A new manufacturer selling direct at a low, non-negotiable price would make objective business sense. Sears Roebuck tried that with the Allstate car, and it failed, because Sears didn’t take trade-ins (many suburban people simply refuse to sell a car themelves even if the cash offered is far over the dealership’s trade in offer, a fact I discovered when trying to buy a truck whose owner turned in to the Obama program), and was not adept at financing its Allstates (which were rebaged Henry J’s). But also because people figured Sears was overcharging, because they wanted what the sign said.

    The design cost of such a new vehicle could be cut by simply using existing, proven components available from subcontractors off the shelf as much as possible, and CAD/CAM makes much of the skilled design needed to make tooling. However, the EPA and NHTSA regulations would mean the certification costs would probably be many tens of millions, meaning it would be an expensive project to “run up the flagpole and see who salutes it”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Former Darfur

    One of my readers is a lawyer at Costco HQ, so I asked him why Costco didn't do more than dip its toe into selling cars. He said car dealerships have a ton of legal defenses, both legislation and contracts, that restrain competition from anything other than same old same old car dealerships.

    Toyota dealerships are particularly well ensconced. In peak Updike, 1981's "Rabbit Is Rich," Rabbit has inherited his father-in-law's Toyota dealership and even he can't help making a bundle off it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hapalong Cassidy

  72. @Paul Mendez
    @The Z Blog


    The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner,
     
    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his "severance package." State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    At least that's how it works in Maryland. Immigrant rights groups actively solicit wage cases.

    Replies: @Thomas, @anonymous coward 42, @Ron Unz

    I totally agree with Paul’s point. Anecdotally, I write software for agriculture. They don’t care a wit about an illegal invader working in the fields. They do care religiously about breaks, overtime, and minimum wage because the morons who think that $15/hr won’t reduce the number of jobs are the ones enforcing it.

  73. @Former Darfur
    @Anonymous

    Car dealerships survive because most car buyers are dumb and because the dealers are highly organized. People mostly don't want the one price model, they prefer to maintain a sense of larceny, and car salesmen are people who are good at letting the mark think he's going over on the dealership when in fact it's the other way around.

    A new manufacturer selling direct at a low, non-negotiable price would make objective business sense. Sears Roebuck tried that with the Allstate car, and it failed, because Sears didn't take trade-ins (many suburban people simply refuse to sell a car themelves even if the cash offered is far over the dealership's trade in offer, a fact I discovered when trying to buy a truck whose owner turned in to the Obama program), and was not adept at financing its Allstates (which were rebaged Henry J's). But also because people figured Sears was overcharging, because they wanted what the sign said.

    The design cost of such a new vehicle could be cut by simply using existing, proven components available from subcontractors off the shelf as much as possible, and CAD/CAM makes much of the skilled design needed to make tooling. However, the EPA and NHTSA regulations would mean the certification costs would probably be many tens of millions, meaning it would be an expensive project to "run up the flagpole and see who salutes it".

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    One of my readers is a lawyer at Costco HQ, so I asked him why Costco didn’t do more than dip its toe into selling cars. He said car dealerships have a ton of legal defenses, both legislation and contracts, that restrain competition from anything other than same old same old car dealerships.

    Toyota dealerships are particularly well ensconced. In peak Updike, 1981’s “Rabbit Is Rich,” Rabbit has inherited his father-in-law’s Toyota dealership and even he can’t help making a bundle off it.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer

    How soon will it be before we can print our own cars?

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    Did your reader also receive his law degree at Costco?

  74. @Steve Sailer
    @Former Darfur

    One of my readers is a lawyer at Costco HQ, so I asked him why Costco didn't do more than dip its toe into selling cars. He said car dealerships have a ton of legal defenses, both legislation and contracts, that restrain competition from anything other than same old same old car dealerships.

    Toyota dealerships are particularly well ensconced. In peak Updike, 1981's "Rabbit Is Rich," Rabbit has inherited his father-in-law's Toyota dealership and even he can't help making a bundle off it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hapalong Cassidy

    How soon will it be before we can print our own cars?

  75. @George Taylor
    As others have already commented the minimum wage law is one of those classic political oxymoron contradictions. Bring in cheap labor only to force small business to pay them a higher wage. Kinda like ban abortions, but execute murderers. And just like high cigarette taxes, it will encourage less then legal ways around it.

    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let's say at the national level $16K a year. You'd have to get rid of every welfare/needs based program, eliminate all tax breaks for poor, middle and rich earners to pay for it, but mathematically it appears it could be done.

    Sure, many are going to band together to rent a house and sit on the sofa all day and smoke pot, but a percent of the population already does that. What I like about the concept is employer's will have to come up with a wage that's an incentive to get them off the couch and come to work. Think about it.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let’s say at the national level $16K a year.

    How’s about instead just guarantee everyone a make work job at the minimum wage–say $8 (to match you 16K)–which can be anything at all down to picking up trash on the road. It achieves the same result–a floor, which private employers must beat to get employees–but is much less socially damaging.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad

    The basic income is better than the make work jobs program because the latter is a government program that requires government bureaucrats and administrators with political power and control over significant budgets and people. The morons and shiftless will waste their basic income on Skittles and video games, but not everybody will. Others will use it to acquire skills, build capital, etc.

    , @Diversity Heretic
    @AnotherDad

    Some kind of "make-work" jobs are clearly the best solution; designing "make-work" jobs that aren't obviously that, and leave people feeling that they're doing something useful, while not impeding genuine production, is a challenge. I do think that a lot of AA jobs today are of this nature.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  76. The CEO of Burger King believes that in fifteen years there will be only one or two workers at each franchise/location, the vast majority of the work will be done by limited AI robots. Of course that sort of prediction has been made for years but if even a fraction of it comes true; well a machine works for zero dollars an hour; even fairly pricey machines when overtime, various payroll taxes are figured in, well they look pretty good.

    But of course lets import half the third world so they not us can get all the social spending goodies.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Whiskey

    Even when there's only one or two workers necessary for manning each Burger King, why wouldn't there still be an incentive for cheaper labor via more immigration to man those Burger Kings? Think about gas stations now, which are often manned by immigrants and just one guy, and serve snacks, fast food, gas, and even sometimes groceries. In fact, as more of a Burger King franchise gets automated and there are diminishing returns, wouldn't there be increasing incentives to lower labor costs via immigration?

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @Thomas

    , @Thomas
    @Whiskey

    The machines are not entirely zero-cost. They need maintenance, programming, administration, etc. Basically a lot of people to service them. (Major enterprises had to expand, or develop in the first place, IT departments massively from what they might have been decades ago). But one machine doing the job of 10 people that can be run along with a hundred other machines by one admin thousands of miles away is cheaper than those 10 people per hour. Even cheaper if the admin is in Bangalore.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic

  77. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Another manifestation of the increased third-worldization of the west are sporadic reports that arise here and there, about instances of slavery.
    Basically what happens is that a ‘professional’ – often working in medicine, ironically, from some place such as Nigeria or Sri Lanka settles in the west and is able, somehow, to wrangle the importation of a ‘domestic servant’ from back home to ‘work’ for him – are usually her, women seem to be far crueller in this instance.
    After the ‘servant’ has run off and fine to the police, then the scale of abuse is revealed.

    In order to curry favor with the Saudis, Britain allows wealthy Saudis to bring whole retinues in with nary a nod to immigration control. Horrific abuse stories have often emerged.

  78. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Dr. X

    I read an article not long ago where they mentioned how all sorts of jobs in the future will be mechanized out of existence or greatly scaled back. It included jobs you wouldn't normally think of in this context, like Accounting, for example. Add increasing populations into the mix, and one of two things (or a mix of both) becomes inevitable; 1. A massive expansion of the welfare state, 2. A greatly shortened workweek, like your France example. Oh, there is a third option of course; a plutocracy of about 5% of the population living comfotably, with the remaining 95% in third world squalor. I'll take the French option any day of the week. The free-marketers and libertarians have to realize that their pipe dream of near 100% employment and near zero dependency on the government is just as far-fetched as the communist utopia is.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    The French model is not sustainable the way things are going.

  79. @The Practical Conservative
    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all. California's not the only place where people demand and expect "high quality full day childcare" for 2-3$ per hour to a single individual.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @The most deplorable one, @RadicalCenter, @stillCARealist

    Those hourly rates are not even close to what we find for childcare in Los Angeles, part-day or full-day, day or night.

    Hourly rates are much, much higher, even when paying in cash to an individual off the books (yes, often middle-aged and older Mexican ladies).

    But I hope and expect that you are right about the min wage being hard to enforce on off-the-books childcare arrangements.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    @RadicalCenter

    The 2-3$/hr (admittedly the lowest end, 5-7/hr is more typical) ladies are white SAHMs and white owners of in-home daycares.

  80. @a Newsreader
    One recurring theme here is how California's big growth industry, cell phone software, often relies on using novel ideas to avoid regulations that increase the price of traditional industries (e.g. Uber avoids cities' taxi regulations, Airbnb avoids hotel regulations).

    I wonder what apps the tech geniuses will come up with to help California's employers avoid paying their employees $15 per hour. Perhaps some sort of phone-based payroll business that classifies its clients as contractors not subject to minimum wages.

    Replies: @rod1963, @Rob McX, @Bill jones

    gigs
    think hollywood

  81. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    @George Taylor


    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let’s say at the national level $16K a year.
     
    How's about instead just guarantee everyone a make work job at the minimum wage--say $8 (to match you 16K)--which can be anything at all down to picking up trash on the road. It achieves the same result--a floor, which private employers must beat to get employees--but is much less socially damaging.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Diversity Heretic

    The basic income is better than the make work jobs program because the latter is a government program that requires government bureaucrats and administrators with political power and control over significant budgets and people. The morons and shiftless will waste their basic income on Skittles and video games, but not everybody will. Others will use it to acquire skills, build capital, etc.

  82. @RadicalCenter
    @The Practical Conservative

    Those hourly rates are not even close to what we find for childcare in Los Angeles, part-day or full-day, day or night.

    Hourly rates are much, much higher, even when paying in cash to an individual off the books (yes, often middle-aged and older Mexican ladies).

    But I hope and expect that you are right about the min wage being hard to enforce on off-the-books childcare arrangements.

    Replies: @The Practical Conservative

    The 2-3$/hr (admittedly the lowest end, 5-7/hr is more typical) ladies are white SAHMs and white owners of in-home daycares.

  83. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Whiskey
    The CEO of Burger King believes that in fifteen years there will be only one or two workers at each franchise/location, the vast majority of the work will be done by limited AI robots. Of course that sort of prediction has been made for years but if even a fraction of it comes true; well a machine works for zero dollars an hour; even fairly pricey machines when overtime, various payroll taxes are figured in, well they look pretty good.

    But of course lets import half the third world so they not us can get all the social spending goodies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thomas

    Even when there’s only one or two workers necessary for manning each Burger King, why wouldn’t there still be an incentive for cheaper labor via more immigration to man those Burger Kings? Think about gas stations now, which are often manned by immigrants and just one guy, and serve snacks, fast food, gas, and even sometimes groceries. In fact, as more of a Burger King franchise gets automated and there are diminishing returns, wouldn’t there be increasing incentives to lower labor costs via immigration?

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    @Anonymous

    In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California's population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it's going to be a serious problem.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Thomas
    @Anonymous

    There's always an incentive for cheaper labor in the simplest sense of the word, but the real metric that matters is marginal product of labor: basically how much you're making by having that person work for you for an hour. In (very) general terms, a smarter or more educated worker will produce more in most cases (maybe not much more working at Burger King). If you have a hard floor on how much you can pay per hour, all else being equal, you're better off paying a smarter person than a dumb one (there's only so cheap you can get your labor). And generally, capital intensity (the amount of capital, broadly defined, relative to the labor pool) bears heavily on productivity.

  84. @Anonymous
    @Whiskey

    Even when there's only one or two workers necessary for manning each Burger King, why wouldn't there still be an incentive for cheaper labor via more immigration to man those Burger Kings? Think about gas stations now, which are often manned by immigrants and just one guy, and serve snacks, fast food, gas, and even sometimes groceries. In fact, as more of a Burger King franchise gets automated and there are diminishing returns, wouldn't there be increasing incentives to lower labor costs via immigration?

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @Thomas

    In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California’s population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it’s going to be a serious problem.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Former Darfur

    "In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California’s population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it’s going to be a serious problem."

    So only the California coast strip has a Mediterranean climate? Bakersfield, Fresno, The Inland Empire, and Palm Springs have what a Northern European climate?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @biz

  85. @Steve Sailer
    @Former Darfur

    One of my readers is a lawyer at Costco HQ, so I asked him why Costco didn't do more than dip its toe into selling cars. He said car dealerships have a ton of legal defenses, both legislation and contracts, that restrain competition from anything other than same old same old car dealerships.

    Toyota dealerships are particularly well ensconced. In peak Updike, 1981's "Rabbit Is Rich," Rabbit has inherited his father-in-law's Toyota dealership and even he can't help making a bundle off it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Did your reader also receive his law degree at Costco?

  86. @Whiskey
    The CEO of Burger King believes that in fifteen years there will be only one or two workers at each franchise/location, the vast majority of the work will be done by limited AI robots. Of course that sort of prediction has been made for years but if even a fraction of it comes true; well a machine works for zero dollars an hour; even fairly pricey machines when overtime, various payroll taxes are figured in, well they look pretty good.

    But of course lets import half the third world so they not us can get all the social spending goodies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Thomas

    The machines are not entirely zero-cost. They need maintenance, programming, administration, etc. Basically a lot of people to service them. (Major enterprises had to expand, or develop in the first place, IT departments massively from what they might have been decades ago). But one machine doing the job of 10 people that can be run along with a hundred other machines by one admin thousands of miles away is cheaper than those 10 people per hour. Even cheaper if the admin is in Bangalore.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @Thomas

    In addition, the skills needed to design, service, repair and upgrade the machines are quite different, and more difficult to acquire, than the skills possessed by the people whose jobs the machines took.

  87. @Anonymous
    @Whiskey

    Even when there's only one or two workers necessary for manning each Burger King, why wouldn't there still be an incentive for cheaper labor via more immigration to man those Burger Kings? Think about gas stations now, which are often manned by immigrants and just one guy, and serve snacks, fast food, gas, and even sometimes groceries. In fact, as more of a Burger King franchise gets automated and there are diminishing returns, wouldn't there be increasing incentives to lower labor costs via immigration?

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @Thomas

    There’s always an incentive for cheaper labor in the simplest sense of the word, but the real metric that matters is marginal product of labor: basically how much you’re making by having that person work for you for an hour. In (very) general terms, a smarter or more educated worker will produce more in most cases (maybe not much more working at Burger King). If you have a hard floor on how much you can pay per hour, all else being equal, you’re better off paying a smarter person than a dumb one (there’s only so cheap you can get your labor). And generally, capital intensity (the amount of capital, broadly defined, relative to the labor pool) bears heavily on productivity.

  88. To expand on the childcare point, while the super-cheap childcare provider thing is real even in California, the larger enforcement problem is things like not paying for naptime or overnight sleep time even if your household is paying the nanny 15-20/hr. Or not paying overtime over 40 hours per week. Or “regular minimum for 10/20 hours/week and we’ll pay you more if we need more hours” and then not paying for the full time hours because “it’s like a salary situation!”.

    There’s all kinds of ways childcare is paid for that are ripe for lawsuits or fines even when the nanny/babysitter is receiving “living wage” hourly pay.

  89. @M_Young
    I think a lot of businesses will cut back on marginal shifts. Sorry stoners, you might not be able to get your queso-lupa at 2am . As such shifts -- indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California -- are filled by immigrant labor, that's a good thing.

    This, I believe, is the point Ron Unz has been making for a while.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “As such shifts — indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California — are filled by immigrant labor, that’s a good thing.”

    In California most Chick-fil-A fast food employees do not have immigrant accents, so I take it most of them were born in The United States. They also tend to be Whiter than other fast food chains. The last time I was at a Chick-fil-A in Marin County, there was a male employee with blond hair and blue eyes.

    Blond haired and blue eyed employees are almost non existant at Taco Bell, KFC, Burger King, Subway, Popeyes, Wendy’s and McDonald’s locations in California which are overwhelmingly staffed by either Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, or Filipinos.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jefferson

    I go to the Chick-Fil-A in Westwood, CA after doctor's appointments at UCLA, and, yeah, the workers seem to be UCLA students, almost as if it were still 1980.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Stan Adams
    @Jefferson

    I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.

    A couple of months ago, I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Hispanic, twenty-something male working as a manager at Burger King.

    I was the only customer in the restaurant - it was late - so we chatted for a few minutes while I waited for my food.

    He admitted that he was anxious to find another job. He indicated that working at Burger King was bad for his sex life - women lost interest when they found out where he worked.

    His exact words were: "I got a lot more p---- when I was a lifeguard."

    He didn't look like a guy who would have trouble attracting women - he was handsome, about 6'/6'1", and buff. (I didn't get any gay vibes.)

    But all of the young guys around here are buff - everyone is a gym rat these days. If you go only three or four times a week, you're letting yourself go.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Jefferson, @Brutusale

  90. @Jefferson
    @M_Young

    "As such shifts — indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California — are filled by immigrant labor, that’s a good thing."

    In California most Chick-fil-A fast food employees do not have immigrant accents, so I take it most of them were born in The United States. They also tend to be Whiter than other fast food chains. The last time I was at a Chick-fil-A in Marin County, there was a male employee with blond hair and blue eyes.

    Blond haired and blue eyed employees are almost non existant at Taco Bell, KFC, Burger King, Subway, Popeyes, Wendy's and McDonald's locations in California which are overwhelmingly staffed by either Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, or Filipinos.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Stan Adams

    I go to the Chick-Fil-A in Westwood, CA after doctor’s appointments at UCLA, and, yeah, the workers seem to be UCLA students, almost as if it were still 1980.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Steve Sailer

    "I go to the Chick-Fil-A in Westwood, CA after doctor’s appointments at UCLA, and, yeah, the workers seem to be UCLA students, almost as if it were still 1980."

    By mostly hiring Americans over "undocumented workers", Chick-Fil-A is trying to make America great again.

  91. Erdogan better watch out if he is using Robert Amsterdam – a toxic combination of Tony Blair and the lawyer to the Khmer Rouge Jacques Vergès – it’s usually a sign that someone is in dire straits.

    Amsterdam was a shocker in Thailand: a hugely enthusiastic paid shill for the deeply corrupt, utterly ruthless former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra (whose self-obsesssed blundering can be blamed in large part for the advent of the current military government).

    One example: in 2003 Thaksin launched a war against drugs where police death squads killed up to 3,000 people; at least half of whom were simply informed on by jealous neighbours or arbitrary attached to death lists and who had nothing to do with drugs. Thaksin did this to impress the rubes with his determination but also obviously for the thrill of wielding power.

    Thailand is complicated and not black and white but Amsterdam’s painting of Thaksin as a kind of secular saint for a bag of gold was stomach-turning.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bill B.

    Is Robert Amsterdam related to Morey Amsterdam of the Dick Van Dyke Show?

    Replies: @Bill B.

  92. @Bill B.
    Erdogan better watch out if he is using Robert Amsterdam - a toxic combination of Tony Blair and the lawyer to the Khmer Rouge Jacques Vergès - it's usually a sign that someone is in dire straits.

    Amsterdam was a shocker in Thailand: a hugely enthusiastic paid shill for the deeply corrupt, utterly ruthless former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra (whose self-obsesssed blundering can be blamed in large part for the advent of the current military government).

    One example: in 2003 Thaksin launched a war against drugs where police death squads killed up to 3,000 people; at least half of whom were simply informed on by jealous neighbours or arbitrary attached to death lists and who had nothing to do with drugs. Thaksin did this to impress the rubes with his determination but also obviously for the thrill of wielding power.

    Thailand is complicated and not black and white but Amsterdam's painting of Thaksin as a kind of secular saint for a bag of gold was stomach-turning.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Is Robert Amsterdam related to Morey Amsterdam of the Dick Van Dyke Show?

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    @Steve Sailer

    Sadly perhaps not. I was going to say that Robert A. is Canadian but in fact he was born in New York.

    Both are Jewish (obviously) but I don't think Robert A. will ever be described as "the joke machine".

  93. @Former Darfur
    @Anonymous

    In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California's population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it's going to be a serious problem.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California’s population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it’s going to be a serious problem.”

    So only the California coast strip has a Mediterranean climate? Bakersfield, Fresno, The Inland Empire, and Palm Springs have what a Northern European climate?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jefferson

    Continental climate.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @biz
    @Jefferson

    Technically, inland areas of middle California have a Steppe climate, and as one goes farther South it transitions to a Hot Desert Climate. Going North toward Tahoe and Shasta and up in elevation in the Sierras it becomes a so-called "Continental Mediterranean Climate" which features a warm dry summer but a cold winter.

    Steppe and Desert climates differ from Mediterranean climates in that the former don't have a Winter rainy season.

  94. @Jefferson
    @Former Darfur

    "In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California’s population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it’s going to be a serious problem."

    So only the California coast strip has a Mediterranean climate? Bakersfield, Fresno, The Inland Empire, and Palm Springs have what a Northern European climate?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @biz

    Continental climate.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Steve Sailer

    "Continental climate."

    But continental climates experience cold winters. It doesn't get that cold in Palm Springs, Fresno, Bakersfield, and The Inland Empire.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hapalong Cassidy

  95. @Steve Sailer
    @Jefferson

    I go to the Chick-Fil-A in Westwood, CA after doctor's appointments at UCLA, and, yeah, the workers seem to be UCLA students, almost as if it were still 1980.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “I go to the Chick-Fil-A in Westwood, CA after doctor’s appointments at UCLA, and, yeah, the workers seem to be UCLA students, almost as if it were still 1980.”

    By mostly hiring Americans over “undocumented workers”, Chick-Fil-A is trying to make America great again.

  96. @Steve Sailer
    @Bill B.

    Is Robert Amsterdam related to Morey Amsterdam of the Dick Van Dyke Show?

    Replies: @Bill B.

    Sadly perhaps not. I was going to say that Robert A. is Canadian but in fact he was born in New York.

    Both are Jewish (obviously) but I don’t think Robert A. will ever be described as “the joke machine”.

  97. @Steve Sailer
    @Jefferson

    Continental climate.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “Continental climate.”

    But continental climates experience cold winters. It doesn’t get that cold in Palm Springs, Fresno, Bakersfield, and The Inland Empire.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jefferson

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tule_fog

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Jefferson

    The northern end of the great valley gets some extreme temperatures. I don't know about its winters, but for its summers, Redding is one of the hottest cities in California, and one of the hottest places for its latitude in the world. Speaking of which, through whatever quirk of boundary drawing the northern border of California is at the exact same latitude as the northern border of Pennsylvania (excluding the Lake Erie extension).

  98. @Jefferson
    @Steve Sailer

    "Continental climate."

    But continental climates experience cold winters. It doesn't get that cold in Palm Springs, Fresno, Bakersfield, and The Inland Empire.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hapalong Cassidy

  99. Was this measure being passed something to do with Ron Unz agitating for it ?

  100. @Dr. X
    Let's review Economics 101, for the sake of the legislators in California (and New York, which is likely to vote for the $15 minimum tomorrow):

    -Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years' seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15x29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that's $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we're going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.

    Perhaps that has been the plan of the Left all along...

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @anonn, @MarkinLA, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous, @Jonathan Mason, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Romanian

    Wasn’t it Ron Unz’s point that the minimum wage hike would dry up the supply of jobs for illegals and make them go back home?

  101. Whether by design or ineptitude, elites in western nations such as Germany and the US manage to create a witch’s cauldron of minimum wage and mass immigration. The result is declining real employment, and increasing social transfers. All of this hits the ordinary man, which is why I suspect a deliberate policy.

  102. @Luke Lea
    @Dr. X


    "In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm."
     
    I can imagine worse things than becoming like France.

    Replies: @pyrrhus, @27 year old

    Hell, France would like to become more like France these days

  103. @Reg Cæsar
    @ILL-iterate


    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.
     
    How about raising them to 103%, like the Swedes once had, only without the loopholes? That'll shut all this nefarious activity down for good. No one will invest a dime, thereby preventing anyone from making a dime.

    As for "infrastructure", how many Gravina Island Bridges do we need?

    Replies: @27 year old

    There are a lot of bridges that need re-building in this country. Most of them are in places you haven’t heard of where everyone is white and moderate to low income.

  104. @Paul Mendez
    @The Z Blog


    The managerial class will never enforce these laws in an effective manner,
     
    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his "severance package." State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    At least that's how it works in Maryland. Immigrant rights groups actively solicit wage cases.

    Replies: @Thomas, @anonymous coward 42, @Ron Unz

    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his “severance package.” State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.

    This agrees with everything I’ve read elsewhere and I think is exactly correct.

    A key factor is that although immigration violations are widely regarded as “victimless crimes” and hence not enforced, not paying your workers what they are legally owed is considered wage-theft and is strictly enforced. Furthermore, while an employer can claim he was “fooled” by obviously fraudulant documents, it’s harder for him to claim he “forgot” to pay his workers their required wages.

    One way of increasing MW compliance to 100% would be to prosecute underpayment violations as actual financial theft, leading to harsh prison sentences.

    In the hypothetical example Steve cites, an employer informally requires that his worker will “kick back” $5/hr of his $15/hr MW job. Okay. Then after a couple of months, the worker threatens to call the cops on his employee and have the unfortunate small businessman sent to state prison for five years unless he receives a payment of $25,000 in exchange for his silence. After one or two stories like this got around, no employer would ever take the risk of deliberately underpaying his workers again.

    I think the Democrats and unions which dominate Sacramento would be pretty happy to pass such very harsh MW enforcement measures just so long as the MSM and FoxNews didn’t denounce them as anti-business lunatics.

    Personally, I think $15/hr is fine for expensive CA cities like SF and LA, but is too high on a statewide basis, even with a 2022 phase-in. However, once good ideas get going politically, they often develop a momentum of their own, and are sometimes taken a little too far.

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Ron Unz

    "Personally, I think $15/hr is fine for expensive CA cities like SF and LA, but is too high on a statewide basis, even with a 2022 phase-in. However, once good ideas get going politically, they often develop a momentum of their own, and are sometimes taken a little too far."

    This measure (which I largely support), will lead to increased political impetus behind the State of Jefferson movement (which I also support).

  105. @Jefferson
    @Steve Sailer

    "Continental climate."

    But continental climates experience cold winters. It doesn't get that cold in Palm Springs, Fresno, Bakersfield, and The Inland Empire.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Hapalong Cassidy

    The northern end of the great valley gets some extreme temperatures. I don’t know about its winters, but for its summers, Redding is one of the hottest cities in California, and one of the hottest places for its latitude in the world. Speaking of which, through whatever quirk of boundary drawing the northern border of California is at the exact same latitude as the northern border of Pennsylvania (excluding the Lake Erie extension).

  106. biz says:
    @Jefferson
    @Former Darfur

    "In the Mediterranean climate strip where most of California’s population lives, $15 an hour minimum wage is probably very sustainable. In inland areas or north of Sacramento, it’s going to be a serious problem."

    So only the California coast strip has a Mediterranean climate? Bakersfield, Fresno, The Inland Empire, and Palm Springs have what a Northern European climate?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @biz

    Technically, inland areas of middle California have a Steppe climate, and as one goes farther South it transitions to a Hot Desert Climate. Going North toward Tahoe and Shasta and up in elevation in the Sierras it becomes a so-called “Continental Mediterranean Climate” which features a warm dry summer but a cold winter.

    Steppe and Desert climates differ from Mediterranean climates in that the former don’t have a Winter rainy season.

  107. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Anonymous

    Ironically, since all criticism of the fast food industry tends to hit McDonalds first and hardest, they may be one of the healthiest and best run of the fast food joints.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    The Clown has a higher gross than the next 3 fast food chains combined:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-20-fast-food-chains-that-rake-in-the-most-money-2015-8

    But the place that the lefties love to hate has the highest customer satisfaction. They also, in my experience, have the best food and the whitest staff:

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/30/pf/fast-food-customer-satisfaction/

    The discussion of immigration, fast food and Cali only makes me see our real future, as described in the first chapter of Neal Stephenson’s Snow Crash.

    Failure is not an option for the Deliverator!

  108. This company has already designed a hamburger-manufacture machine.

    All they need is a few more increases in the min and their sales will take off.

    http://www.gizmag.com/hamburger-machine/25159/

  109. For perspective, in 1984, my father made $40,000 per year ($20 per hour) as a highly paid US Government PhD scientist at the GS12 level. Also in 1984, the President of the first engineering firm I joined pulled down then huge salary of $40,000 per year ($20 per hour).

    In 1998 coming out of grad school, I demanded and got $40,000 per year starting pay my first year out of engineering school, which was the highest salary in my class. By that time, the president of my engineering firm was making the big-man’s salary of $120,000 per year.

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    Inflation is out of control from the demand for a 3%+ raise every year.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Andrew

    Andrew, Buffalo teachers bitch that they haven't had a new contract in almost ten years, but conveniently omit the fact that they get yearly 2% step raises. Starting pay at about $38,000 plus great benefits, no pay in to health care or pension and a 184 day work year.

    , @Former Darfur
    @Andrew

    Since inflation is a tax on all outstanding existing currency, it is a wealth tax assuming one has wealth denominated in that currency. Wealthier people, immigrants and people in immigrant and diaspora communities, and (therefore to repeat myself) members of certain self-chosen ethnically cohesive groups, tend to internationalize their assets with precious metals, foreign currencies, etc and so inflation of the home currency affects them less. Nationalistic people tend to think of internationalizing one's assets as unpatriotic and also as risky and therefore pay the tax disproportionately.

    Probably a future government in the US will do a 10:1 currency swap for a New Dollar, to obsolete all existing old currency and wreck black markets, when it becomes advantageous to do so.

    , @Former Darfur
    @Andrew

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    My sustaining engineer at work has a Master's in Mech E and a BS in EE and had worked as a checker at a supermarket in the union days during college, nights, summers and breaks. He spent six months looking for an engineering job after graduation-and still took a noticeable pay cut to leave the supermarket.

    Those were good days, even if some are too stupid to know it.

  110. @Paul Mendez

    Easier to raise the highest individual tax brackets and have the government put the revenue back into the economy through infrastructure spending.
     
    Doesn't work.

    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.

    I'll see if I can find a study.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Paul Mendez, @ILL-iterate

    Economic research shows changing upper income tax rates does not change tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. The higher the rate, the more high income earners are motivated to employ tax shelters and demand non-wage compensation.

    Opting for a tax shelter is just rolling the dice with the IRS these days; fine by me, I’ve audited several. There’s tangible satisfaction to creating a case for tax evasion and referring it to the fraud dept. I’d prefer the non-wage compensation option because it means the company spent the money on something – travel, fancy dinners, etc – and put the money back into the economy rather than hoarding offshore or in an over-invested stock market.

    This is as it should be. No patriot should give the federal government one more penny than he has to.

    No patriot should have to live in a country where capitalism redistributes the wealth created by everyone to senior executives and the upper class who then claim taxation is theft, but we do.

  111. “-Higher wages will result in higher costs for employers.
    -Higher costs will result in fewer employees hired, and an increased emphasis on mechanization and offshoring of jobs.
    -Higher wages will also lead to higher prices.
    -Higher prices will lead to a drop in product demand, which will also lead to layoffs.
    -$15 an hour minimum will lead to a ripple effect throughout the wage chain, because the guy making $19 with five years’ seniority will demand a raise as well. This will contribute to the overall higher prices and reduced demand for goods and labor.

    Now, add in the following: The federal Obamacare mandate requires that businesses offer health coverage to employees working 30 or more hours. SO, the MAXIMUM any $15 an hour minimum-wage employee will ever be allowed to work is 29 hours; therefore, his pay is effectively capped at 15×29 = $435; assuming he works 52 weeks a year with no time off, that’s $22,000 and change. Not exactly get-rich-quick wages.

    In other words, we’re going to become France, where a 30-hour workweek, about $30k in disposable income, and 10-11% unemployment are the norm.”

    And yet….

    In 1982, the minimum wage was $3.35 (I worked at a city library as a high school student for $3.25, which was somehow legal).

    Using a variety of online inflation calculators (with an estimate of the inflation rate over the next 6 years), I get that 3.35 in 1982 will equal about $11.50 in 2022. A but under $15, but not dramatically so.

    Either 1) the economy in 1982 was worse than I realize, and the minimum wage at the time was creating the same chaos that is described above, or 2) the difference between 11.50 and 15.00 in 2022 will create that chaos-so an increase to 11.50 should be acceptable, or 3) the chaos described above is overwrought.

    If you are old enough, you grew up with a reasonable minimum wage (i.e. it worked for part-time high school kids). The national minimum wage hasn’t kept up with inflation. Raising it enough to keep up with inflation seems to me to be eminently reasonable.

    Is opposition to any minimum wage really based on anything other than right-wing voodoo economics? Is opposition to $15 minimum wage reasonable, or based on our collective failure to understand the reduced purchasing power of money (or, in other words, we all remember high school jobs earning $4-6 dollars an hour, so we emotionally think $15 = outrageous)? Or has something fundamentally changed that makes minimum wage = economic suicide?

    joeyjoejoe

  112. @The Practical Conservative
    And in answer to the main question, this wage will never be enforced for childcare providers, who allow the women who support 15/hr minimum wages to have jobs at all. California's not the only place where people demand and expect "high quality full day childcare" for 2-3$ per hour to a single individual.

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @The most deplorable one, @RadicalCenter, @stillCARealist

    two years ago i looked for drop-in day care for my 5 year old and they quoted me $7/hour. This is near Sacramento. when I asked a friend to do it instead, she looked shocked at only$7/hour. She was expecting minimum wage at least ($9/hr in 2014?).

  113. every single restaurant i lunch at has raised their prices as of January 1 by quite a bit.

    the 9.99 lunch special is now $13.50 and i personally think they are gouging, i asked what was going on and the reply was “the increase in min wage” on January 1 which was only a $1. By this measure that lunch special is going to be $17 by 2020 which means i’m going to be eating out a whole lot less.

  114. @Jefferson
    @M_Young

    "As such shifts — indeed all non-In-N-Out fast food in California — are filled by immigrant labor, that’s a good thing."

    In California most Chick-fil-A fast food employees do not have immigrant accents, so I take it most of them were born in The United States. They also tend to be Whiter than other fast food chains. The last time I was at a Chick-fil-A in Marin County, there was a male employee with blond hair and blue eyes.

    Blond haired and blue eyed employees are almost non existant at Taco Bell, KFC, Burger King, Subway, Popeyes, Wendy's and McDonald's locations in California which are overwhelmingly staffed by either Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, or Filipinos.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Stan Adams

    I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.

    A couple of months ago, I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Hispanic, twenty-something male working as a manager at Burger King.

    I was the only customer in the restaurant – it was late – so we chatted for a few minutes while I waited for my food.

    He admitted that he was anxious to find another job. He indicated that working at Burger King was bad for his sex life – women lost interest when they found out where he worked.

    His exact words were: “I got a lot more p—- when I was a lifeguard.”

    He didn’t look like a guy who would have trouble attracting women – he was handsome, about 6’/6’1″, and buff. (I didn’t get any gay vibes.)

    But all of the young guys around here are buff – everyone is a gym rat these days. If you go only three or four times a week, you’re letting yourself go.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Stan Adams

    Stan, Lifeguards around here make between $15 and $20 per hour, and that is why many hotels/motels feature a guard less swim at your own risk policy. Insurance premiums must be a bitch though. Problem is that the swimming season in Western New York is short, a couple of months at best, so lifeguarding is not a profitable career. Go back and tell that young man to tell the girls he is a part owner in the franchise and looking to open his open. They will be all over him like ketchup on fries. Probably comp you some burgers.

    , @Jefferson
    @Stan Adams

    "I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live."

    Do you live in flyover country?

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @Brutusale
    @Stan Adams

    The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero. On the flip side, the percentage of minorities doing the same jobs where my mother lives north of Tampa approaches zero.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Stan Adams

  115. It seems to me that this law will mainly impact on job slots associated with large-scale corporations, and small businesses owned by what might be termed “normal Americans.” Hence, the principal (disproportionately so) beneficiaries will be…White people! Kinda ironic that an American political left, so ordinarily obsessed with all manner of disparate impacts, would be OK with this. But then, its part of the political program of the Democratic Party, so that makes it an unalloyed social good. Plus, the very same ear-gauged baristas who provide much of the demand for this policy change, will be the ones actually getting most of the dough. Totally a coinkydink!

  116. The District of Columbia City Council unanimously passed a resolution to pay criminals and potential criminals a yearly stipend if they take intervention therapy that will help them avoid criminal activity. The act is called (can’t make this sh*t up) the Neighborhood Engagement Achieves Results (N.E.A.R.) Act. The measure approves a set aside budget of $4.9 million over the next 4 years. This year’s proposed D.C. budget is a startling $13.5 Billion .

  117. @AnotherDad
    @George Taylor


    I myself like the guaranteed universal minimum income for all U.S. citizens, similar to what Charles Murray and Milton Friedman proposed. Let’s say at the national level $16K a year.
     
    How's about instead just guarantee everyone a make work job at the minimum wage--say $8 (to match you 16K)--which can be anything at all down to picking up trash on the road. It achieves the same result--a floor, which private employers must beat to get employees--but is much less socially damaging.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Diversity Heretic

    Some kind of “make-work” jobs are clearly the best solution; designing “make-work” jobs that aren’t obviously that, and leave people feeling that they’re doing something useful, while not impeding genuine production, is a challenge. I do think that a lot of AA jobs today are of this nature.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Diversity Heretic

    Diversity, I have noticed local government officials proposing all sorts of intervention and assistance programs that will need new employees...all at the higher minimum wage. Bus Aides, Teacher's aides, lead paint abatement and remediation techs, opiate addiction prevention and treatment techs, all new government programs. Trading jobs, with a decent starting pay, remember that, for votes.

  118. @Thomas
    @Whiskey

    The machines are not entirely zero-cost. They need maintenance, programming, administration, etc. Basically a lot of people to service them. (Major enterprises had to expand, or develop in the first place, IT departments massively from what they might have been decades ago). But one machine doing the job of 10 people that can be run along with a hundred other machines by one admin thousands of miles away is cheaper than those 10 people per hour. Even cheaper if the admin is in Bangalore.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic

    In addition, the skills needed to design, service, repair and upgrade the machines are quite different, and more difficult to acquire, than the skills possessed by the people whose jobs the machines took.

  119. @Ron Unz
    @Paul Mendez


    Actually, minimum wage laws are highly enforced. Social Justice Warriors newly graduated from law school provide free help suing employers for back wages. When the worker is ready to leave his job, he simply goes to the community legal clinic to claim his “severance package.” State labor departments are eager to fine employers who violate the law.
     
    This agrees with everything I've read elsewhere and I think is exactly correct.

    A key factor is that although immigration violations are widely regarded as "victimless crimes" and hence not enforced, not paying your workers what they are legally owed is considered wage-theft and is strictly enforced. Furthermore, while an employer can claim he was "fooled" by obviously fraudulant documents, it's harder for him to claim he "forgot" to pay his workers their required wages.

    One way of increasing MW compliance to 100% would be to prosecute underpayment violations as actual financial theft, leading to harsh prison sentences.

    In the hypothetical example Steve cites, an employer informally requires that his worker will "kick back" $5/hr of his $15/hr MW job. Okay. Then after a couple of months, the worker threatens to call the cops on his employee and have the unfortunate small businessman sent to state prison for five years unless he receives a payment of $25,000 in exchange for his silence. After one or two stories like this got around, no employer would ever take the risk of deliberately underpaying his workers again.

    I think the Democrats and unions which dominate Sacramento would be pretty happy to pass such very harsh MW enforcement measures just so long as the MSM and FoxNews didn't denounce them as anti-business lunatics.

    Personally, I think $15/hr is fine for expensive CA cities like SF and LA, but is too high on a statewide basis, even with a 2022 phase-in. However, once good ideas get going politically, they often develop a momentum of their own, and are sometimes taken a little too far.

    Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Personally, I think $15/hr is fine for expensive CA cities like SF and LA, but is too high on a statewide basis, even with a 2022 phase-in. However, once good ideas get going politically, they often develop a momentum of their own, and are sometimes taken a little too far.

    This measure (which I largely support), will lead to increased political impetus behind the State of Jefferson movement (which I also support).

  120. @Andrew
    For perspective, in 1984, my father made $40,000 per year ($20 per hour) as a highly paid US Government PhD scientist at the GS12 level. Also in 1984, the President of the first engineering firm I joined pulled down then huge salary of $40,000 per year ($20 per hour).

    In 1998 coming out of grad school, I demanded and got $40,000 per year starting pay my first year out of engineering school, which was the highest salary in my class. By that time, the president of my engineering firm was making the big-man's salary of $120,000 per year.

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    Inflation is out of control from the demand for a 3%+ raise every year.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Former Darfur, @Former Darfur

    Andrew, Buffalo teachers bitch that they haven’t had a new contract in almost ten years, but conveniently omit the fact that they get yearly 2% step raises. Starting pay at about $38,000 plus great benefits, no pay in to health care or pension and a 184 day work year.

  121. @Stan Adams
    @Jefferson

    I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.

    A couple of months ago, I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Hispanic, twenty-something male working as a manager at Burger King.

    I was the only customer in the restaurant - it was late - so we chatted for a few minutes while I waited for my food.

    He admitted that he was anxious to find another job. He indicated that working at Burger King was bad for his sex life - women lost interest when they found out where he worked.

    His exact words were: "I got a lot more p---- when I was a lifeguard."

    He didn't look like a guy who would have trouble attracting women - he was handsome, about 6'/6'1", and buff. (I didn't get any gay vibes.)

    But all of the young guys around here are buff - everyone is a gym rat these days. If you go only three or four times a week, you're letting yourself go.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Jefferson, @Brutusale

    Stan, Lifeguards around here make between $15 and $20 per hour, and that is why many hotels/motels feature a guard less swim at your own risk policy. Insurance premiums must be a bitch though. Problem is that the swimming season in Western New York is short, a couple of months at best, so lifeguarding is not a profitable career. Go back and tell that young man to tell the girls he is a part owner in the franchise and looking to open his open. They will be all over him like ketchup on fries. Probably comp you some burgers.

  122. @Diversity Heretic
    @AnotherDad

    Some kind of "make-work" jobs are clearly the best solution; designing "make-work" jobs that aren't obviously that, and leave people feeling that they're doing something useful, while not impeding genuine production, is a challenge. I do think that a lot of AA jobs today are of this nature.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Diversity, I have noticed local government officials proposing all sorts of intervention and assistance programs that will need new employees…all at the higher minimum wage. Bus Aides, Teacher’s aides, lead paint abatement and remediation techs, opiate addiction prevention and treatment techs, all new government programs. Trading jobs, with a decent starting pay, remember that, for votes.

  123. @Anonymous
    @unpc downunder


    Setting a high minimum wage will probably lead to a slight increase in unemployment, but that will be about it.
     
    The higher minimum wage is supported by many readers here not as an end in itself, but as a means of increasing unemployment and thus reducing immigration. So if it only increases unemployment slightly or not at all, it's not really doing its job.

    Replies: @unpc downunder

    I’m talking about the unemployment rate for legal workers, not illegal ones. The unemployment rate for illegal workers (such as overstayers) will probably increase as it’s more likely employers will be reluctant to hire them.

    My comment was in response to the classical liberal argument that raising the minimum wage creates high levels of unemployment among legal workers. That might have been true a hundred years ago but it doesn’t really apply today.

  124. @Andrew
    For perspective, in 1984, my father made $40,000 per year ($20 per hour) as a highly paid US Government PhD scientist at the GS12 level. Also in 1984, the President of the first engineering firm I joined pulled down then huge salary of $40,000 per year ($20 per hour).

    In 1998 coming out of grad school, I demanded and got $40,000 per year starting pay my first year out of engineering school, which was the highest salary in my class. By that time, the president of my engineering firm was making the big-man's salary of $120,000 per year.

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    Inflation is out of control from the demand for a 3%+ raise every year.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Former Darfur, @Former Darfur

    Since inflation is a tax on all outstanding existing currency, it is a wealth tax assuming one has wealth denominated in that currency. Wealthier people, immigrants and people in immigrant and diaspora communities, and (therefore to repeat myself) members of certain self-chosen ethnically cohesive groups, tend to internationalize their assets with precious metals, foreign currencies, etc and so inflation of the home currency affects them less. Nationalistic people tend to think of internationalizing one’s assets as unpatriotic and also as risky and therefore pay the tax disproportionately.

    Probably a future government in the US will do a 10:1 currency swap for a New Dollar, to obsolete all existing old currency and wreck black markets, when it becomes advantageous to do so.

  125. @Andrew
    For perspective, in 1984, my father made $40,000 per year ($20 per hour) as a highly paid US Government PhD scientist at the GS12 level. Also in 1984, the President of the first engineering firm I joined pulled down then huge salary of $40,000 per year ($20 per hour).

    In 1998 coming out of grad school, I demanded and got $40,000 per year starting pay my first year out of engineering school, which was the highest salary in my class. By that time, the president of my engineering firm was making the big-man's salary of $120,000 per year.

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    Inflation is out of control from the demand for a 3%+ raise every year.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Former Darfur, @Former Darfur

    It boggles my mind that $30,000 now is going to be the minimum wage. Most people in my class felt lucky to get that as a starting engineering salary 20 years ago.

    My sustaining engineer at work has a Master’s in Mech E and a BS in EE and had worked as a checker at a supermarket in the union days during college, nights, summers and breaks. He spent six months looking for an engineering job after graduation-and still took a noticeable pay cut to leave the supermarket.

    Those were good days, even if some are too stupid to know it.

  126. @Stan Adams
    @Jefferson

    I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.

    A couple of months ago, I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Hispanic, twenty-something male working as a manager at Burger King.

    I was the only customer in the restaurant - it was late - so we chatted for a few minutes while I waited for my food.

    He admitted that he was anxious to find another job. He indicated that working at Burger King was bad for his sex life - women lost interest when they found out where he worked.

    His exact words were: "I got a lot more p---- when I was a lifeguard."

    He didn't look like a guy who would have trouble attracting women - he was handsome, about 6'/6'1", and buff. (I didn't get any gay vibes.)

    But all of the young guys around here are buff - everyone is a gym rat these days. If you go only three or four times a week, you're letting yourself go.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Jefferson, @Brutusale

    “I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.”

    Do you live in flyover country?

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Jefferson

    I do not.

    I live nearer to Fidel Castro's street than Steve does to Castro Street.

  127. So, CA brought in all these immigrants to lower wages, but now they are raising wages.

    What a schizo state.

    It’s like drying a blanket with water.

  128. @Stan Adams
    @Jefferson

    I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live.

    A couple of months ago, I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Hispanic, twenty-something male working as a manager at Burger King.

    I was the only customer in the restaurant - it was late - so we chatted for a few minutes while I waited for my food.

    He admitted that he was anxious to find another job. He indicated that working at Burger King was bad for his sex life - women lost interest when they found out where he worked.

    His exact words were: "I got a lot more p---- when I was a lifeguard."

    He didn't look like a guy who would have trouble attracting women - he was handsome, about 6'/6'1", and buff. (I didn't get any gay vibes.)

    But all of the young guys around here are buff - everyone is a gym rat these days. If you go only three or four times a week, you're letting yourself go.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Jefferson, @Brutusale

    The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero. On the flip side, the percentage of minorities doing the same jobs where my mother lives north of Tampa approaches zero.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Brutusale

    "The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero."

    Does that also apply to Chick-Fil-A chains in the Greater Boston area? Here in Californa I have never been to a Chick-Fil-A restaurant that did not have at least 1 employee with a White phenotype.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @Stan Adams
    @Brutusale

    Scenes from a Denny's* somewhere in South Florida:

    Staff:
    * Cheerful black (Caribbean?) waiter, maybe in his 40s or 50s
    * Frumpy-looking Hispanic (Cuban?) bottle-blonde hostess, somewhere north of 40

    One of the cooks (not here now) is a Germanic-looking white guy from California who is taller than 6'6" Rob Gronkowski. (I know this because he told me, "I met Gronkowski when he was in college, and I was taller than him!")

    Customers:
    * Older white guy reading a two-day-old dead-tree issue of USA Today
    * An older-middle-aged black lady with an elder black lady (her mother?)
    * A young black mother with two kids
    * A young black mother with four kids

    *It's Prole City, yes, but I'm not rich. I used to eat here all the time when I was a not-rich college student. (The carpet looked old twelve years ago. It looks even older now.) There are 20%-off-your-whole-check-at-Denny's coupons in today's dead-tree local rags (the Herald and the Sun-Sentinel).

    If anyone I know sees me, I can say that I'm doing sociological research into the eating habits of the left side of the bell curve.

    OT: While waiting for my food, I read in the Sun-Sentinel that the Library of Congress has struck illegal aliens from its list of classification terms. The Newspeak words are noncitizens and unauthorized immigration.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

  129. @Brutusale
    @Stan Adams

    The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero. On the flip side, the percentage of minorities doing the same jobs where my mother lives north of Tampa approaches zero.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Stan Adams

    “The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero.”

    Does that also apply to Chick-Fil-A chains in the Greater Boston area? Here in Californa I have never been to a Chick-Fil-A restaurant that did not have at least 1 employee with a White phenotype.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Jefferson

    No, Chick-Fil-A is the pale outlier, as opposed to a local Dunkin' Donuts I was in recently: three headscarves and one with dreadlocks, mon.

    Replies: @Jefferson

  130. I could imagine such practices becoming fairly widespread in California with a $15 minimum wage: immigrants would get officially paid $15 per hour, but would have to kick back $5 per hour (or whatever) under the table to their employers.

    That is what happened in Canada. Canadian citizens had difficulty getting fast food jobs because employers preferred temporary foreign workers from the Philippines. The Filipinos were given more hours and paid more than Canadians and some employers demanded cash kickbacks and even took out life insurance policies on their foreign employees.

    http://thetyee.ca/News/2014/01/20/Why-Abuse-is-Hard-to-Stop/
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mcdonald-s-accused-of-favouring-foreign-workers-1.2598684

  131. @Mike Sylwester
    @MarkinLA

    A 4.25 dollar big Mac instead of a 4.00 dollars one, big deal.

    Most of the Scientific Progressives have been estimating that raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $15.00 will increase the price of a Big Mac only about five cents -- to $4.05.

    Why do you estimate that the price will rise an entire 25 cents? Maybe you aren't taking into consideration that the wage increase will reduce employee turn-over. In fact, the Big Mac price might fall.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @MarkinLA

    Just guessing on the safe side.

  132. @Reg Cæsar
    @MarkinLA


    I am sick of hearing about everything from the side of the saintly employer who’s employees are all collecting welfare.
     
    Hey, everybody, what say we raise Mark's personal minimum wage to $75 an hour? Any boss caught paying him a penny less will have his business closed down. Fair enough?

    Replies: @Paul Mendez, @MarkinLA

    Why do you want to subsidize businesses that aren’t necessary or doing something for the common good? Most fast food places are staffed by adult immigrants not teenagers in high school.

  133. @Anonymous
    @stillCARealist

    Can't we just get rid of car salesmen altogether and just sell cars like most other things, with a simple posted price? Costco sells cars this way. Car salesman really should be an obsolete vocation.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @MarkinLA

    Saturn started out that way and it was seemingly popular. Later they stopped doing it.

  134. @Jefferson
    @Brutusale

    "The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero."

    Does that also apply to Chick-Fil-A chains in the Greater Boston area? Here in Californa I have never been to a Chick-Fil-A restaurant that did not have at least 1 employee with a White phenotype.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    No, Chick-Fil-A is the pale outlier, as opposed to a local Dunkin’ Donuts I was in recently: three headscarves and one with dreadlocks, mon.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Brutusale

    "No, Chick-Fil-A is the pale outlier, as opposed to a local Dunkin’ Donuts I was in recently: three headscarves and one with dreadlocks, mon."

    Chick-Fil-A is indeed the paler outlier. I wonder how much of thst has to do with the owners of that company being Evangelical Republicans and not Social Justice Warriors, or open borders Libertarians.

  135. @Brutusale
    @Jefferson

    No, Chick-Fil-A is the pale outlier, as opposed to a local Dunkin' Donuts I was in recently: three headscarves and one with dreadlocks, mon.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “No, Chick-Fil-A is the pale outlier, as opposed to a local Dunkin’ Donuts I was in recently: three headscarves and one with dreadlocks, mon.”

    Chick-Fil-A is indeed the paler outlier. I wonder how much of thst has to do with the owners of that company being Evangelical Republicans and not Social Justice Warriors, or open borders Libertarians.

  136. @Jefferson
    @Stan Adams

    "I still see whites in service jobs in the area where I live."

    Do you live in flyover country?

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    I do not.

    I live nearer to Fidel Castro’s street than Steve does to Castro Street.

  137. @Brutusale
    @Stan Adams

    The percentage of whites working in chain fast food around Greater Boston approaches zero. On the flip side, the percentage of minorities doing the same jobs where my mother lives north of Tampa approaches zero.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Stan Adams

    Scenes from a Denny’s* somewhere in South Florida:

    Staff:
    * Cheerful black (Caribbean?) waiter, maybe in his 40s or 50s
    * Frumpy-looking Hispanic (Cuban?) bottle-blonde hostess, somewhere north of 40

    One of the cooks (not here now) is a Germanic-looking white guy from California who is taller than 6’6″ Rob Gronkowski. (I know this because he told me, “I met Gronkowski when he was in college, and I was taller than him!”)

    Customers:
    * Older white guy reading a two-day-old dead-tree issue of USA Today
    * An older-middle-aged black lady with an elder black lady (her mother?)
    * A young black mother with two kids
    * A young black mother with four kids

    *It’s Prole City, yes, but I’m not rich. I used to eat here all the time when I was a not-rich college student. (The carpet looked old twelve years ago. It looks even older now.) There are 20%-off-your-whole-check-at-Denny’s coupons in today’s dead-tree local rags (the Herald and the Sun-Sentinel).

    If anyone I know sees me, I can say that I’m doing sociological research into the eating habits of the left side of the bell curve.

    OT: While waiting for my food, I read in the Sun-Sentinel that the Library of Congress has struck illegal aliens from its list of classification terms. The Newspeak words are noncitizens and unauthorized immigration.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Stan Adams

    Addendum:
    * The black lady had five kids, not four.
    * On my way out, I saw (on the other side of the restaurant) a middle-aged Hispanic (Cuban?) couple, a doughy middle-aged East Asian, and another older white guy.
    * And I saw another older blonde white non-Hispanic(?) waitress.

    The Caribbean(?) black waiter remembered me from years ago. He's been there for 17 years. Like I said, I ate there a lot when I was in college.

    Behold the wonders of diversity! All races, colors, and creeds pigging out on crappy food together! MLK would be proud.

    The blacks were the loudest folks in the joint, but the kids were relatively well-behaved - they weren't screaming at the top of their lungs or racing each other down the aisles.

  138. @Stan Adams
    @Brutusale

    Scenes from a Denny's* somewhere in South Florida:

    Staff:
    * Cheerful black (Caribbean?) waiter, maybe in his 40s or 50s
    * Frumpy-looking Hispanic (Cuban?) bottle-blonde hostess, somewhere north of 40

    One of the cooks (not here now) is a Germanic-looking white guy from California who is taller than 6'6" Rob Gronkowski. (I know this because he told me, "I met Gronkowski when he was in college, and I was taller than him!")

    Customers:
    * Older white guy reading a two-day-old dead-tree issue of USA Today
    * An older-middle-aged black lady with an elder black lady (her mother?)
    * A young black mother with two kids
    * A young black mother with four kids

    *It's Prole City, yes, but I'm not rich. I used to eat here all the time when I was a not-rich college student. (The carpet looked old twelve years ago. It looks even older now.) There are 20%-off-your-whole-check-at-Denny's coupons in today's dead-tree local rags (the Herald and the Sun-Sentinel).

    If anyone I know sees me, I can say that I'm doing sociological research into the eating habits of the left side of the bell curve.

    OT: While waiting for my food, I read in the Sun-Sentinel that the Library of Congress has struck illegal aliens from its list of classification terms. The Newspeak words are noncitizens and unauthorized immigration.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    Addendum:
    * The black lady had five kids, not four.
    * On my way out, I saw (on the other side of the restaurant) a middle-aged Hispanic (Cuban?) couple, a doughy middle-aged East Asian, and another older white guy.
    * And I saw another older blonde white non-Hispanic(?) waitress.

    The Caribbean(?) black waiter remembered me from years ago. He’s been there for 17 years. Like I said, I ate there a lot when I was in college.

    Behold the wonders of diversity! All races, colors, and creeds pigging out on crappy food together! MLK would be proud.

    The blacks were the loudest folks in the joint, but the kids were relatively well-behaved – they weren’t screaming at the top of their lungs or racing each other down the aisles.

  139. I tend not to patronize restaurants where you find blacks, not by particular choice, but it seems NAMs don’t patronize gastropubs.

    Of course, it’s a good idea just to stay away!

    http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/04/03/police-2-arrested-after-fight-over-crab-legs-turns-violent/

    Now the story didn’t identify the people arrested as black, but Latoya is usually a good identifier.

  140. I had some auto work done in South LA this week, I bought a used driver car that needed a new engine and LA near the ports is a drop point for super cheap Japanese engines, it’s also easy for super cheap installations and easy smog checks.

    Only caveat, you have to pay “all cash” for labor, a large portion of the “low wage” economy is cheating-not playing by the rules, they’ll cheat on the minimum wage too, many already do.

    Life is competitive, and cheating pays.

    Economists depending on pay could give you a desired projection figure -for cheating.

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