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Here’s a story I’d never heard before about a nuclear fuel plant in Apollo, PA, from Foreign Policy:
What Lies Beneath
BY SCOTT C. JOHNSONThe nuclear mess in Parks could hold clues to yet another mystery in this Pennsylvania community, one that has bedeviled nuclear analysts for decades. Beginning in the early 1960s, investigators from the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), the agency that regulated U.S. nuclear facilities at the time, began to question how large amounts of highly enriched, weapons-grade uranium had gone missing from NUMEC. Any nuclear site had a certain amount of loss, from seepage into walls and floors, for instance. In fact, between 1952 and 1968, lax standards at 20 of the country’s commercial nuclear sites resulted in an apparent loss of 995 kilograms (2,194 pounds) of uranium-235. But investigators found that at NUMEC, hundreds of pounds went missing, more than at any other plant.
NUMEC’s founder, Zalman Shapiro, an accomplished American chemist, addressed the concern in 1978, telling Arizona Congressman Morris Udall that the uranium simply escaped through the facility’s air ducts, cement, and wastewater. Others, such as the late Glenn Seaborg, the AEC’s chairman in the 1960s—who had previously helped discover plutonium and made key contributions to the Manhattan Project—have suggested that the sloppy accounting and government regulations of the mid-20th century meant that keeping track of losses in America’s newborn nuclear industry was well near impossible. Today, some people in Apollo think that at least a portion of the uranium might be buried in Parks, contaminating the earth and, ultimately, human beings.
Today, the empty land where NUMEC once stood is surrounded by a chain-link fence; no future construction is allowed in the area.
But a number of nuclear experts and intelligence officials propose another theory straight out of an espionage thriller: that the uranium was diverted—stolen by spies working for the Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency. In the 1960s, to secure nuclear technology and materials, Israel mounted covert operations around the world, including at least one alleged open-ocean transfer of hundreds of pounds of uranium. Some experts have also raised questions about Shapiro himself. He had contacts deep within Israel’s defense and intelligence establishments when he ran NUMEC; several of them even turned up at his facility over time and concealed their professional identities while there.Fifty years after investigations began—they have involved, at various times, the AEC and its successors, Congress, the FBI, the CIA, and other government agencies—NUMEC remains one of the most confounding puzzles of the nuclear era. “It is one of the most interesting and important Cold War mysteries out there,” said Steven Aftergood, who directs the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists. “Mainly as a story of clandestine nuclear proliferation, intelligence, security bungling, and the limits of intelligence.” The questions about Shapiro, meanwhile, linger: Is he a great American innovator, a traitor, or both? (Shapiro, now 94, has never been charged with a crime or convicted of one, and he has steadfastly proclaimed his innocence.)
Answers could emerge, once and for all, during the upcoming cleanup in Parks.
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It’s believed that Irael has about 200 or so nuclear bombs or so.
The Uranium had to come from somewhere. Personally, I’d feel better knowing the Mossad stole it rather than it still being in the ground, giving the good people of Pennsylvania cancer. If I lived in the Middle East, I’d probably prefer it the other way around.
In any case, it's essential to US national security that our essential ally in the Mideast have the ultimate security guarantee. If those nukes were under US control there woul always be some doubt as to whether we would use them in case of an attack on an ally. When our ally has them under it own control, that insures US security and regional stability because no one can afford to successfully attack.
So it was patriotic and very important for whatever top secret US operation moved those nuclear materials to get them where they would do so much good. We should all be grateful to the unnamed secret operators that got the job done.Replies: @AnotherDad, @neutral
Confounding mystery? I thought it was common knowledge. Here’s a book about it:
There is a conspiracy theory though. The conspiracy theory is that Kennedy wasn’t going to allow Israel to develop nuclear weapons which is why he was dispatched. Johnson agreed to Kennedy’s removal and allowed the uranium and technical secrets to be smuggled to Israel. Here’s a book about the Israeli/Kennedy conspiracy theory:
The US Government decided to ignore the "that" and "how" Israel developed its nuclear arsenal, similar to its decisions to ignore perennial Israeli spying and decades-long interference in the American electoral process.
To pretend to search for more answers about NUMEC and Zalman Shapiro and Israeli nukes will without question turn out to be another attempt at obfuscation by the US Government and the MSM.
http://npolicy.org/books/2014muf/Ferguson%20Chapter%201.pdfBelow, PiltdownMan (#4) picks up the Zalman Shapiro matter as reported via NSA/GWU. It was not lost on goy Pennsylvanians that Arlen Specter was Shapiro's attorney. (Nor on the Quaker Jews of my acquaintance, n.b.)http://www.israellobby.org/nukes/specter/default.aspFor a quickie primer on the (1977) historical moment in the '70s (amazing to see it again after all these years, and so easily):http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-case-of-karen-silkwood-19770113This was 1977. I was in college by then.In the '70s and '80s concern about the dangers of a nuclear industry run on Wild West/Middle East principles united a wide range of people IME. We who had grown up with Soviet ICBM targets painted on our neighborhoods and downwind from TMI/ground and atmospheric testing were very much aware of anything related to this.Then there's the whole issue of just who it was who pushed the Manhattan Project to make sure the US made nukes, who they got used on, and who spied to make sure Big Bolshie back in the USSR got them. Wonder whether somebody didn't conclude at some point it was better just to out and out hand the capacity over to Israel. For whatever reasons. Behind whatever scenes, and right out in the open of others.Replies: @Steve Sailer
Why would Zalman Shapiro help Israel with nuclear grade uranium? That doesn’t make sense, does it? It’s as if someone is suggesting he may have dual loyalties. What next, suggesting one of the president’s most trusted advisers would suffer from similar issues?
As the old saying goes, for some of these people "dual loyalties" would be an improvement
(I am not just referring to some Jews, but to many minorities who live in America but who despise its people.)
How can you blame Shapiro? After developing the nuclear fuel for USS Nautilus, it was promptly used to kill Jews in the first three US-Israel Wars. By the fourth US-Israel war, it's understandable that Shapiro wanted to even things up a bit.
A nuclear safety engineer has done a nice web page on the NUMEC affair.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb565-Was-U.S.-Nuclear-Weapons-Fuel-Diverted-to-Israel/
The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists watchdog group has an article by him.
http://thebulletin.org/did-israel-steal-bomb-grade-uranium-united-states7056
https://www.amazon.com/Divert-Shapiro-Diversion-Weapons-Uranium/dp/0982775709/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579359&sr=1-1&keywords=divert
There is a conspiracy theory though. The conspiracy theory is that Kennedy wasn't going to allow Israel to develop nuclear weapons which is why he was dispatched. Johnson agreed to Kennedy's removal and allowed the uranium and technical secrets to be smuggled to Israel. Here's a book about the Israeli/Kennedy conspiracy theory:
https://www.amazon.com/Final-Judgment-Missing-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/0974548405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579639&sr=1-1&keywords=final+judgement+by+michael+collins+piperReplies: @Opinionator, @bob sykes, @TheJester, @Olorin
By calling the Kennedy story a conspiracy theory, are you saying it is untrue?
The Sum of all Fears was on tv today. Coincidence?
Wasn’t this a plot point in Tom Clancy’s The Sum of All Fears (can’t remember if both the movie and book have it)–that Israeli nukes were built with uranium stolen from the USA ?
http://www.obooksbooks.com/2015/4086_197.html
Wiki – “Zalman Mordecai Shapiro was an American chemist and inventor. He received 15 patents, including a 2009 patent on a process to make commercial production of diamonds cheaper.”
Mordy’s contribution to humanity will echo through the ages. 🙂
No less a luminary than Kristen Gillibrand cited this to the US PTO as a reason Zalman should get the National Medal of Technology and Innovation!
http://www.israellobby.org/nukes/specter/gillbrand.pdf
Fancy hearing about this story here.
Here is a little image of the NUMEC “superfund” site I prepared a few years ago by matching Google Maps with the black-and white overview plan from the official report:
http://imgur.com/gallery/pYlHP
“Get out of here, Stalker”
Israel got plutonium from the British via a British civil servant called Michael Israel Michaels, who “had dual loyalties to Britain and Israel.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/10/past.freedomofinformation
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2014/04/britains-dirty-secret
According to ADL types, accusing someone of having ‘dual loyalties’ is just about the worst thing you can do.
I never heard of this guy but if the story is true then he is an unsung hero.
The best thing is that this country still has plenty enough of them to fill a whole choir, or two, or even three...
All heroes.
And all unhung.
They all live Amerikvan Dream.
Just like you.
The Uranium had to come from somewhere. Personally, I'd feel better knowing the Mossad stole it rather than it still being in the ground, giving the good people of Pennsylvania cancer. If I lived in the Middle East, I'd probably prefer it the other way around.Replies: @reiner Tor, @(((Owen))), @Jake
They bought a lot of uranium from South Africa. But I’d guess it’s totally likely that a lot was stolen from the US. The Kennedy etc. conspiracy theories are most likely untrue, though.
My impression is that Israeli nuclear weapons are Plutonium bombs, using reprocessed Dimona reactor material.
Would Israel have reason to want to have enriched U235 bombs as well? Maybe because their plutonium output was constrained or because U235 weapons have capabilities that plutonium bombs do not?Replies: @reiner Tor
In any event, he’s a good reason not to trust Jews with state secrets at all. Anyway, I can certainly understand why he would be thought a hero by Jews (especially Israeli Jews), though.
“Why Did Hundreds of Pounds of Uranium-235 Disappear?”
Yeaaaah….Moshe; the story is true.
The best thing is that this country still has plenty enough of them to fill a whole choir, or two, or even three…
All heroes.
And all unhung.
They all live Amerikvan Dream.
Just like you.
I’m pretty sure there was a not-ever-really-discussed scandal in the UK in the 1960s where a senior (((civil servant))) okayed a shipment of nuclear material to Israel without any apparent political oversight.
Which I now see was already referenced above! (TelfoedJohn)
If it happened, the Russians did it. What more do they need us to know?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/10/past.freedomofinformation
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2014/04/britains-dirty-secret
According to ADL types, accusing someone of having 'dual loyalties' is just about the worst thing you can do.Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Hunsdon
Dual loyalties – that would be a start.
There’s hardly a unique and monolithic Jewish conspiracy. This is the story of yet another country doing whatever it takes to get nuclear weapons. It does seem to guarantee a kind of independence and invulnerability to foreign coups. There are plenty of well-informed people from every tribe in the world who disagree with this making folks safer.
Often even anti-immigration or anti-traitor Jews look at things through the lens of “is it good for the Jews?”, or at least that’s how they frame it when talking to other Jews, which in the most charitable interpretation is probably the argument they think their Jewish opponents will understand.
Take, for example, Jonathan Pollard. Admiral Shapiro, no doubt a nice guy, argued that “We work so hard to establish ourselves and to get where we are, and to have somebody screw it up … and then to have Jewish organizations line up behind this guy and try to make him out a hero of the Jewish people, it bothers the hell out of me.” In other words, Admiral Shapiro argued that conducting and supporting such espionage is bad for the Jews. Whether it’s good or bad for the gentiles doesn’t even seem to enter the equation in such conversations.
This reminds me of a Cold War-era teenage insight of mine, realized some time after my family moved from Chicago to Cincinnati when I was in 8th grade. I remember seeing for the second or third time a piece in the newspaper on the city’s vulnerability to attack by the USSR, including an aerial photo of downtown Cincinnati with concentric rings superimposed to indicate the various levels of damage that would result from a given nuclear explosion. It was claimed that Cincinnati was one of the first places they would hit, because of the GE jet engine factory…and maybe P&G’s strategic soap installations? I can’t recall.
Anyway, I realized that this was a comforting thought disguised as a terrifying one: at least barely-major-league Cincinnati was at the top of the heap in one regard!!
And I therefore thought it was probably total BS. My grandparents, for example, lived right at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain: now they were on the front lines.
Not that I have any room to talk. I've always lived in even less nuke-worthy places.
A similar joke was made in my family as my dad was a P+G engineer.
I remember these newspaper stories as well. We lived in Greenhills about 5 miles--crow flies--from the GE jet engine plant in Evendale, so figured if the Russkis really targeted the plant, I was in the non-pain instant incineration zone. None of that limping around sick and weak crap. (Of course I wouldn't get to be a Charleton Hestonesque last man alive--roaming around to find that last woman alive to save the species--either.)
The GE plant certainly would be a legitimate top target. But even to my adolescent brain, it struck me that if there was an attack then this World War II style analysis was off point. It would matter a good deal less what military equipment the US could continue to produce in the immediate years to come, than what was still in existence right then after the attack. And in turn that mattered much less simply making the devastation--population, production, infrastructure--total.
The arc of warfare may be long, but it bends toward totally annihilating your opponent, so he can't get back up, because he doesn't actually exist.Replies: @slumber_j
https://www.amazon.com/Divert-Shapiro-Diversion-Weapons-Uranium/dp/0982775709/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579359&sr=1-1&keywords=divert
There is a conspiracy theory though. The conspiracy theory is that Kennedy wasn't going to allow Israel to develop nuclear weapons which is why he was dispatched. Johnson agreed to Kennedy's removal and allowed the uranium and technical secrets to be smuggled to Israel. Here's a book about the Israeli/Kennedy conspiracy theory:
https://www.amazon.com/Final-Judgment-Missing-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/0974548405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579639&sr=1-1&keywords=final+judgement+by+michael+collins+piperReplies: @Opinionator, @bob sykes, @TheJester, @Olorin
I totally agree. I read this story decades ago. A good deal of the rest of the missing 900 kg or so was likely stolen, too. Did the French get any of it?
and the award goes to Arnon Milchan….
credit Grant Smith
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/10/past.freedomofinformation
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2014/04/britains-dirty-secret
According to ADL types, accusing someone of having 'dual loyalties' is just about the worst thing you can do.Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Hunsdon
Dual loyalty would be an improvement. Dual loyalities for ADL is being disloyal to Israel.
Where were your heroes in ’44?
SA did sell a lot of uranium to Israel. That was not weapons-grade enriched U235, though. It was typical feedstock for a nuclear reactor such as the one at Dimona.
My impression is that Israeli nuclear weapons are Plutonium bombs, using reprocessed Dimona reactor material.
Would Israel have reason to want to have enriched U235 bombs as well? Maybe because their plutonium output was constrained or because U235 weapons have capabilities that plutonium bombs do not?
https://www.amazon.com/Divert-Shapiro-Diversion-Weapons-Uranium/dp/0982775709/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579359&sr=1-1&keywords=divert
There is a conspiracy theory though. The conspiracy theory is that Kennedy wasn't going to allow Israel to develop nuclear weapons which is why he was dispatched. Johnson agreed to Kennedy's removal and allowed the uranium and technical secrets to be smuggled to Israel. Here's a book about the Israeli/Kennedy conspiracy theory:
https://www.amazon.com/Final-Judgment-Missing-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/0974548405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579639&sr=1-1&keywords=final+judgement+by+michael+collins+piperReplies: @Opinionator, @bob sykes, @TheJester, @Olorin
You are right. As you note, this is an old story that got my attention years ago. Israel (Mossad) stole the uranium for its nukes … just like it stole the nuclear triggers for its nukes. The sources you note have the “who, what, when and where”. They have names and dates.
The US Government decided to ignore the “that” and “how” Israel developed its nuclear arsenal, similar to its decisions to ignore perennial Israeli spying and decades-long interference in the American electoral process.
To pretend to search for more answers about NUMEC and Zalman Shapiro and Israeli nukes will without question turn out to be another attempt at obfuscation by the US Government and the MSM.
The Norwegians gave them the heavy water. The French were also much involved and always said they thought Israeli nukes are indirectly aimed at the US because if the US didn’t save Israel in a tight spot. it fires nukes off–Samson Option style. I expect North Korean nukes are indirectly aimed at China.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/10/past.freedomofinformation
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2014/04/britains-dirty-secret
According to ADL types, accusing someone of having 'dual loyalties' is just about the worst thing you can do.Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Hunsdon
Presumably, this accusation is still only a base canard even if the someone in question has, oh, dual citizenship.
“Why would Zalman Shapiro help Israel with nuclear grade uranium? That doesn’t make sense, does it? It’s as if someone is suggesting he may have dual loyalties.”
As the old saying goes, for some of these people “dual loyalties” would be an improvement
(I am not just referring to some Jews, but to many minorities who live in America but who despise its people.)
Israel’s nuclear program was assisted by the French and British and Americans for the same reason that the Chinese helped Pakistan and North Korea with theirs: to “eff” with the opposing nation. The Soviet Union and its allies in our case and the US in the case of the Chinese. This is well documented.
Unlike North Korea, Israel has refrained from using nukes even under severe threat — near defeat early on in the Yom Kippur War. That various nations have launched war against Israel AFTER they got nukes shows how few fear Israeli first-use, and you could argue that Israeli nukes by introducing the Samson effect has reduced first-strikes by conventional means ala the Six Day War.
The most likely explanation is that various incompetents lost or buried nuclear material which is contaminating rural Pennsylvania. Most people are stupid, and the idea that malignant super-conspiracies explain the world is just as stupid — JFK was just another President killed by a lunatic who wanted to be famous and held a grudge. Its not as though JKF was another King Arthur, more like a prot0 Bill Clinton.
Be fair. If you were Mossad would you rather attempt to steal U235 from the Yanks or from the KGB?
The Uranium had to come from somewhere. Personally, I'd feel better knowing the Mossad stole it rather than it still being in the ground, giving the good people of Pennsylvania cancer. If I lived in the Middle East, I'd probably prefer it the other way around.Replies: @reiner Tor, @(((Owen))), @Jake
Yes.
In any case, it’s essential to US national security that our essential ally in the Mideast have the ultimate security guarantee. If those nukes were under US control there woul always be some doubt as to whether we would use them in case of an attack on an ally. When our ally has them under it own control, that insures US security and regional stability because no one can afford to successfully attack.
So it was patriotic and very important for whatever top secret US operation moved those nuclear materials to get them where they would do so much good. We should all be grateful to the unnamed secret operators that got the job done.
However, this "Israel is a great asset" much less an "essential" asset strikes me as just ridiculous.
The US doesn't have much difficulty *projecting* power. Having some sort of giant aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean isn't some big prize. (Even if Israel actually was that, rather than its own nation with its own interests.) Even if\when we need to have dirt, client kleptocrats come pretty cheap--much cheaper than Israel. And in fact, many were natural allies in the Cold War as they were royalist kleptocrats wary of communist revolution.
Rather our close relationship with Israel was a giant boat anchor around the US throughout the Cold War, requiring extra diplomatic effort and billions in additional bribe money to maintain relationships in the Arab world for the--actually critical--task of keeping the Russkis from creeping to dominance in the oil patch. Post Cold War's been if anything worse, with our Israel relationship being at or near the top of the list of Osama's, and like minded Islamonutters' charge sheet against the US. Israel is the *main* reason we're a prime target and we've gotten ourselves involved in these useless Arabian blood feuds.
It's fine for Jews like you to love Israel. But seriously quit trying to sell me this b.s. that it's been beneficial to me. It's been a boat anchor the US is forced to drag around.Replies: @(((Owen)))
Here are a couple of pages (245-47) from Mark Riebling’s underappreciated Wedge, which is about institutional conflict betw-een CIA and the FBI:
The world was a nicer place when I was the type of libertarian who occasionally tuned into Rush.
I don’t like that I now knew where the article was headed as soon as I saw the last name. There’s no going back one you know though. I guess ignorance is bliss.
While you are at it, why don’t you solve the mystery of the USS Liberty? One of the things that many on the alt-right (rightfully) do is make fun of SJW narratives that make it seem as if century old events happened just yesterday. Whatever happened at NUMEC happened a long time ago and I doubt that we’ll ever know or that it’s even useful to find out at this point. The statute of limitation has run on all crimes. It wouldn’t shock me if the stuff was diverted to Israel (or maybe it really did literally fall thru the cracks) but chances are the Israelis would have gotten their hands on it one way or another by now anyway. Why bring this up now?
The reason to bring this up now is that a town in Pennsylvania is being turned into a Superfund site when people should be looking for the missing uranium in Dimona.
Plutonium, people — it was contaminated with gadolinium, which was always a problem at a U.S. breeder reactor
http://www.obooksbooks.com/2015/4086_197.html
Another suspect is Nyman Levin, whom the MacMillan Govt, unbelievable as it seems now, appointed Director of the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment. He died in 1965 of a heart attack in No 10 Downing Street, which is even more unbelievable !
What happened at NUMEC is a problem here and now, and if the missing uranium is somewhere else, people in Pennsylvania can rest easier at night.
The reason to bring this up now is that a town in Pennsylvania is being turned into a Superfund site when people should be looking for the missing uranium in Dimona.
Anyway, I realized that this was a comforting thought disguised as a terrifying one: at least barely-major-league Cincinnati was at the top of the heap in one regard!!
And I therefore thought it was probably total BS. My grandparents, for example, lived right at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain: now they were on the front lines.Replies: @Sandmich, @Federalist, @AnotherDad
Depending on how old you were, there was also “Fernald Feed Materials” in the hinterlands of Hamilton county. They even had the Ralston Purina logo on their water tower in an attempt to complete the ruse as I recall (perhaps improperly).
Anyway, I realized that this was a comforting thought disguised as a terrifying one: at least barely-major-league Cincinnati was at the top of the heap in one regard!!
And I therefore thought it was probably total BS. My grandparents, for example, lived right at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain: now they were on the front lines.Replies: @Sandmich, @Federalist, @AnotherDad
I guess if you want to be really cynical, you could say that it was the worst of both worlds. Cincinnati wasn’t really important enough to be at the top of the list but the Soviets had more than enough missiles to nuke it anyway.
Not that I have any room to talk. I’ve always lived in even less nuke-worthy places.
Shit, you overheard our conversation! I’ll try to be quieter next time.
The way I see the lessons of communism for Jews is that they (meaning a large subset of Jews, often supported by other Jews, see for example Jacob Schiff) tried to ally with the working class against gentile elites and middle classes. (I don't think it was wholly conscious, but it doesn't matter.) The result was that those elites and especially the middle classes turned on Jews, the most horrible example being Nazism. Another result was that where the struggle of the working classes was successful (essentially, Soviet communism and its offshoots in Eastern Central Europe and the Balkan), the new generation of gentile leaders descending from those lower classes also turned on the Jews.
With cultural Marxism, they are allying with gentile white elites and other races (mostly immigrants except US blacks and the old immigrant Gypsies in some Southeast European countries) what could happen is that either the whites become hostile to Jews and take revenge, or the new nonwhite groups discard the Jews after becoming majority. Or actually both could happen at the same time, especially if for example in Europe the white remnants convert to Islam and then let loose their brewing anti-Jewish feelings.
Jews don't have much more time to correct this than gentile whites, in fact, the clock might run out earlier, since by the time gentile whites turn to nationalism, it might be too late for Jews to join in the fight against multi-culturalism. On the other hand, if white gentiles themselves will be too late (and I wouldn't bet against it), then mazel tov, Israel, you'll be on your own, with no major friendly powers left. Of course, Jews won't feel welcome in the Galut either.Replies: @Olorin
Zalman Shapiro has been dead for some time. Does Steve Sailer have a quota of Jewish stories he needs to post?
Ah, “dual loyalty”
How can you blame Shapiro? After developing the nuclear fuel for USS Nautilus, it was promptly used to kill Jews in the first three US-Israel Wars. By the fourth US-Israel war, it’s understandable that Shapiro wanted to even things up a bit.
Here are a couple of pages (245-47) from Mark Riebling’s underappreciated Wedge, which is about institutional conflict between CIA and the FBI:
My comment: The missing Uranium in part pre-dated the 1968 activities highlighted here, and I think Eitan’s visit was likely given a green light as a signal to Iraq and the USSR, knowing that the visit would be detected. The activity is all the more remarkable, coming only 15 months after the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, and just under 9 months after the mysterious loss of INS Dakar.
Anyway, I realized that this was a comforting thought disguised as a terrifying one: at least barely-major-league Cincinnati was at the top of the heap in one regard!!
And I therefore thought it was probably total BS. My grandparents, for example, lived right at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain: now they were on the front lines.Replies: @Sandmich, @Federalist, @AnotherDad
LOL. Kudos, Slumber J.
A similar joke was made in my family as my dad was a P+G engineer.
I remember these newspaper stories as well. We lived in Greenhills about 5 miles–crow flies–from the GE jet engine plant in Evendale, so figured if the Russkis really targeted the plant, I was in the non-pain instant incineration zone. None of that limping around sick and weak crap. (Of course I wouldn’t get to be a Charleton Hestonesque last man alive–roaming around to find that last woman alive to save the species–either.)
The GE plant certainly would be a legitimate top target. But even to my adolescent brain, it struck me that if there was an attack then this World War II style analysis was off point. It would matter a good deal less what military equipment the US could continue to produce in the immediate years to come, than what was still in existence right then after the attack. And in turn that mattered much less simply making the devastation–population, production, infrastructure–total.
The arc of warfare may be long, but it bends toward totally annihilating your opponent, so he can’t get back up, because he doesn’t actually exist.
You state that Israel has refrained from using nukes even under severe threat – near defeat early on in the Yom Kippur War.
Actually during the Yom Kippur War Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir ordered the army to prepare a series of Jericho missiles with tactical 20 kt warheads as a last option to avoid total defeat.
It’s not clear that Israel has rockets that could reach as far as the US or even if it did, why they would ever want to use them on Washington. Samson brought down the temple on his ENEMIES, not on his friends who didn’t help him enough. Even in a final, go out with glory moment, what would be the logic of Israel nuking the US with its large Jewish population? I know the joos are evil, but no one every called them stupid. I’d say the odds are much better that Israel would use them someday on Muslim ruled (and not too distant, especially since Israel has (German made diesel) subs with nuclear cruise missiles in the Mediterranean) France.
In any case, it's essential to US national security that our essential ally in the Mideast have the ultimate security guarantee. If those nukes were under US control there woul always be some doubt as to whether we would use them in case of an attack on an ally. When our ally has them under it own control, that insures US security and regional stability because no one can afford to successfully attack.
So it was patriotic and very important for whatever top secret US operation moved those nuclear materials to get them where they would do so much good. We should all be grateful to the unnamed secret operators that got the job done.Replies: @AnotherDad, @neutral
I don’t have any problem with Israel’s existence. I think it’s good that the Jews finally have a nation. I want all *all* people to have their own nations. (History shows this is a *much* better alternative than imperialism and multiculturalism.) My problems with Jews are entirely about destructive Jewish political and cultural behavior in *my* nation–and the West generally.
However, this “Israel is a great asset” much less an “essential” asset strikes me as just ridiculous.
The US doesn’t have much difficulty *projecting* power. Having some sort of giant aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean isn’t some big prize. (Even if Israel actually was that, rather than its own nation with its own interests.) Even if\when we need to have dirt, client kleptocrats come pretty cheap–much cheaper than Israel. And in fact, many were natural allies in the Cold War as they were royalist kleptocrats wary of communist revolution.
Rather our close relationship with Israel was a giant boat anchor around the US throughout the Cold War, requiring extra diplomatic effort and billions in additional bribe money to maintain relationships in the Arab world for the–actually critical–task of keeping the Russkis from creeping to dominance in the oil patch. Post Cold War’s been if anything worse, with our Israel relationship being at or near the top of the list of Osama’s, and like minded Islamonutters’ charge sheet against the US. Israel is the *main* reason we’re a prime target and we’ve gotten ourselves involved in these useless Arabian blood feuds.
It’s fine for Jews like you to love Israel. But seriously quit trying to sell me this b.s. that it’s been beneficial to me. It’s been a boat anchor the US is forced to drag around.
Shapiro, NUMEC and the theft of uranium sent to Israel to make their nuclear bombs are well known to all of us realists not sucked into the protestant worship of Israel Its an old story.
If Israel fired them in the Samson option. it would be at Russia, which certainly can hit the US.
In any case, it's essential to US national security that our essential ally in the Mideast have the ultimate security guarantee. If those nukes were under US control there woul always be some doubt as to whether we would use them in case of an attack on an ally. When our ally has them under it own control, that insures US security and regional stability because no one can afford to successfully attack.
So it was patriotic and very important for whatever top secret US operation moved those nuclear materials to get them where they would do so much good. We should all be grateful to the unnamed secret operators that got the job done.Replies: @AnotherDad, @neutral
Honestly don’t know if this is a spoof or serious, in case you are serious “regional stability” is certainly not the first thing people think of about the middle east. In fact, I cannot think how much more destructive foreign policy one can do than what Israel and USA have done in the middle east.
It is unclear, at least to me, that Israel has rockets which could reach the US. However, the Samson Option is an Israeli threat to nuke Europe in the event that it was about to fall (and there is little doubt that Israeli rockets can reach that far). The standard quote (here copypasta from Wikipedia) is from the the always charming, always rational, but variably spelled Moshe Dayan:
This thread started with someone saying that the France were glad to give Israel nukes (they were the ones most responsible) because they hoped Israel would use them against the US, but now I hear they are planning to nuke Rome which is just a hop, skip and a jump from Paris, so maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all.
Monomaniacal OT Israel stuff is going to ruin every thread on this sight.
The Uranium had to come from somewhere. Personally, I'd feel better knowing the Mossad stole it rather than it still being in the ground, giving the good people of Pennsylvania cancer. If I lived in the Middle East, I'd probably prefer it the other way around.Replies: @reiner Tor, @(((Owen))), @Jake
Israelis with nukes is like black homeboys with uzis. No good can come of it long term.
If Moshe Dayan admitted to it, is it still an anti-semititic conspiracy theory?
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.743722 is a frank account of the Nyman Levin affair, and also discusses the possible dual loyalties of Edward Teller and Zalman Shapiro.
I must say none of this bothers me at all. It did not threaten America’s vital national interests while it was very much in Israel’s. Who in Ashkenazi shoes would not have done the same?
The problem arises is when perceived national interests collide, as may be the case in Syria today. In this particular instance it might be in Israel’s long-term strategic interest, as opposed to her short-run tactical advantage, to let Assad remain in power. One Iraq is one too many. With America’s changing demography it may no longer be prudent to take American popular support for the state of Israel — rooted in America’s Anglo-Protestant traditions — for granted.
A similar joke was made in my family as my dad was a P+G engineer.
I remember these newspaper stories as well. We lived in Greenhills about 5 miles--crow flies--from the GE jet engine plant in Evendale, so figured if the Russkis really targeted the plant, I was in the non-pain instant incineration zone. None of that limping around sick and weak crap. (Of course I wouldn't get to be a Charleton Hestonesque last man alive--roaming around to find that last woman alive to save the species--either.)
The GE plant certainly would be a legitimate top target. But even to my adolescent brain, it struck me that if there was an attack then this World War II style analysis was off point. It would matter a good deal less what military equipment the US could continue to produce in the immediate years to come, than what was still in existence right then after the attack. And in turn that mattered much less simply making the devastation--population, production, infrastructure--total.
The arc of warfare may be long, but it bends toward totally annihilating your opponent, so he can't get back up, because he doesn't actually exist.Replies: @slumber_j
Great point.
van Creveld batting 1000. The Intifada indeed brought down Israel and indeed they nuked Rome just like he said they would. No, wait, none of that actually happened.
This thread started with someone saying that the France were glad to give Israel nukes (they were the ones most responsible) because they hoped Israel would use them against the US, but now I hear they are planning to nuke Rome which is just a hop, skip and a jump from Paris, so maybe it wasn’t such a good idea after all.
However, this "Israel is a great asset" much less an "essential" asset strikes me as just ridiculous.
The US doesn't have much difficulty *projecting* power. Having some sort of giant aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean isn't some big prize. (Even if Israel actually was that, rather than its own nation with its own interests.) Even if\when we need to have dirt, client kleptocrats come pretty cheap--much cheaper than Israel. And in fact, many were natural allies in the Cold War as they were royalist kleptocrats wary of communist revolution.
Rather our close relationship with Israel was a giant boat anchor around the US throughout the Cold War, requiring extra diplomatic effort and billions in additional bribe money to maintain relationships in the Arab world for the--actually critical--task of keeping the Russkis from creeping to dominance in the oil patch. Post Cold War's been if anything worse, with our Israel relationship being at or near the top of the list of Osama's, and like minded Islamonutters' charge sheet against the US. Israel is the *main* reason we're a prime target and we've gotten ourselves involved in these useless Arabian blood feuds.
It's fine for Jews like you to love Israel. But seriously quit trying to sell me this b.s. that it's been beneficial to me. It's been a boat anchor the US is forced to drag around.Replies: @(((Owen)))
Israel isn’t helping make friends with Arabs, but the *main* reason we’re a target is because we’re idiotically inviting millions of them to settle in our country.
My impression is that Israeli nuclear weapons are Plutonium bombs, using reprocessed Dimona reactor material.
Would Israel have reason to want to have enriched U235 bombs as well? Maybe because their plutonium output was constrained or because U235 weapons have capabilities that plutonium bombs do not?Replies: @reiner Tor
I didn’t know that. Didn’t they also sell U238? After all, it’s way more common. Also, didn’t South African nukes use U235? So why sell to Israel something that is of no use to Israel, while it could’ve been used by South Africa itself?
What SA sold to Israel was uranium oxide with the natural ratio of U238 (about 99%) and U235 (0.7%).
It's the U235 that makes the weapon go boom. Enriching uranium to weapons grade means getting the % of U235 up to 80-90%
The Israelis could have done one or both of two things:
Enriched the SA sourced uranium (perhaps via centrifuge) themselves so that the percentage of U235 rose to 80%-90%, making it weapons grade; or
Used the uranium as fuel in the Dimona reactor where some of that Uranium would have been transformed into Plutonium 239, another potential weapons grade material.
In general, the second path is much more technologically demanding but well within Israeli capabilities.
For some reason, I have had the impression that Israeli warheads used Plutonium rather than U235. You don't need a reactor at all---just a series of centrifuges--to enrich uranium to weapons grade.
To make bombs, the Israelis have always needed to import uranium but they don't need already enriched uranium (they can enrich themselves) even though it might save them some time. And they were always able to buy as much uranium ore as they wanted from South Africa.
But, I'm no nuclear weapons designer and am simply wondering why U235 would be especially attractive to Israel.Replies: @res, @reiner Tor
I think ultimately this cultural Marxist madness will turn out disastrously for Jews, just as real Marxism did. I don’t think it’s a problem if Jews understand this and – out of self-interest or ethnic self-interest – join the fight against cultural Marxism. But I think it’s beneficial (for me, at least) to understand their motives. It might even be beneficial for Jews in the long term. Think about how learning from past mistakes can lead to improvement of future behavior, whereas not learning from past mistakes will only lead to a repeat of past catastrophes.
The way I see the lessons of communism for Jews is that they (meaning a large subset of Jews, often supported by other Jews, see for example Jacob Schiff) tried to ally with the working class against gentile elites and middle classes. (I don’t think it was wholly conscious, but it doesn’t matter.) The result was that those elites and especially the middle classes turned on Jews, the most horrible example being Nazism. Another result was that where the struggle of the working classes was successful (essentially, Soviet communism and its offshoots in Eastern Central Europe and the Balkan), the new generation of gentile leaders descending from those lower classes also turned on the Jews.
With cultural Marxism, they are allying with gentile white elites and other races (mostly immigrants except US blacks and the old immigrant Gypsies in some Southeast European countries) what could happen is that either the whites become hostile to Jews and take revenge, or the new nonwhite groups discard the Jews after becoming majority. Or actually both could happen at the same time, especially if for example in Europe the white remnants convert to Islam and then let loose their brewing anti-Jewish feelings.
Jews don’t have much more time to correct this than gentile whites, in fact, the clock might run out earlier, since by the time gentile whites turn to nationalism, it might be too late for Jews to join in the fight against multi-culturalism. On the other hand, if white gentiles themselves will be too late (and I wouldn’t bet against it), then mazel tov, Israel, you’ll be on your own, with no major friendly powers left. Of course, Jews won’t feel welcome in the Galut either.
Including ones that have few to no historical facts supporting them.
See Andrew Joyce on Russell Gmirkin on Old Testament scholarship:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/exodus-redux-jewish-identity-and-the-shaping-of-history/
That’s an incredible story. I’m surprised I’ve never heard of it before. The US equivalent would be someone like Richard Perle or Zalman Shapiro being found dead in the Oval Office.
I’d laugh myself to death if the uranium somehow ended up in Ukraine or Georgia rather than Israel.
All of the SA warheads were simply-designed U235 weapons, similar to the “Little Boy” the US dropped on Hiroshima.
What SA sold to Israel was uranium oxide with the natural ratio of U238 (about 99%) and U235 (0.7%).
It’s the U235 that makes the weapon go boom. Enriching uranium to weapons grade means getting the % of U235 up to 80-90%
The Israelis could have done one or both of two things:
Enriched the SA sourced uranium (perhaps via centrifuge) themselves so that the percentage of U235 rose to 80%-90%, making it weapons grade; or
Used the uranium as fuel in the Dimona reactor where some of that Uranium would have been transformed into Plutonium 239, another potential weapons grade material.
In general, the second path is much more technologically demanding but well within Israeli capabilities.
For some reason, I have had the impression that Israeli warheads used Plutonium rather than U235. You don’t need a reactor at all—just a series of centrifuges–to enrich uranium to weapons grade.
To make bombs, the Israelis have always needed to import uranium but they don’t need already enriched uranium (they can enrich themselves) even though it might save them some time. And they were always able to buy as much uranium ore as they wanted from South Africa.
But, I’m no nuclear weapons designer and am simply wondering why U235 would be especially attractive to Israel.
For U-235 over Plutonium - simpler bomb construction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-type_fission_weapon
For U-235 over U-238 - volume/weight and no processing needed (e.g. the centrifuges are one of the main ways we know about Iran's nuclear program)
Any other ideas? (I thought PV alluded to both of these reasons in his post)
Perhaps initially they purchased the slightly enriched U235 uranium so that they could produce a few gun design bombs, while still working on the implosion devices. That's probably the best approach if you need a bomb very quickly, but want to achieve perfection eventually. A gun type bomb is worse than an implosion device for basically any purpose, therefore, probably, all countries want to create one like that.
What SA sold to Israel was uranium oxide with the natural ratio of U238 (about 99%) and U235 (0.7%).
It's the U235 that makes the weapon go boom. Enriching uranium to weapons grade means getting the % of U235 up to 80-90%
The Israelis could have done one or both of two things:
Enriched the SA sourced uranium (perhaps via centrifuge) themselves so that the percentage of U235 rose to 80%-90%, making it weapons grade; or
Used the uranium as fuel in the Dimona reactor where some of that Uranium would have been transformed into Plutonium 239, another potential weapons grade material.
In general, the second path is much more technologically demanding but well within Israeli capabilities.
For some reason, I have had the impression that Israeli warheads used Plutonium rather than U235. You don't need a reactor at all---just a series of centrifuges--to enrich uranium to weapons grade.
To make bombs, the Israelis have always needed to import uranium but they don't need already enriched uranium (they can enrich themselves) even though it might save them some time. And they were always able to buy as much uranium ore as they wanted from South Africa.
But, I'm no nuclear weapons designer and am simply wondering why U235 would be especially attractive to Israel.Replies: @res, @reiner Tor
Possible reasons:
For U-235 over Plutonium – simpler bomb construction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-type_fission_weapon
For U-235 over U-238 – volume/weight and no processing needed (e.g. the centrifuges are one of the main ways we know about Iran’s nuclear program)
Any other ideas? (I thought PV alluded to both of these reasons in his post)
Your mom 🙂
It’s unlikely that he out and out stole nuclear material without CIA clearance (heck, he officially had Israeli military people visit) but in the incredibly small chance that he did, what he did was counter to…i don’t know, whoever in the cia decides these things, but that’s it. To my view, someone who imports foreigners to take jobs here is a traitor. Even if it’s legal. Longer convo but will save it for the meetup.
What SA sold to Israel was uranium oxide with the natural ratio of U238 (about 99%) and U235 (0.7%).
It's the U235 that makes the weapon go boom. Enriching uranium to weapons grade means getting the % of U235 up to 80-90%
The Israelis could have done one or both of two things:
Enriched the SA sourced uranium (perhaps via centrifuge) themselves so that the percentage of U235 rose to 80%-90%, making it weapons grade; or
Used the uranium as fuel in the Dimona reactor where some of that Uranium would have been transformed into Plutonium 239, another potential weapons grade material.
In general, the second path is much more technologically demanding but well within Israeli capabilities.
For some reason, I have had the impression that Israeli warheads used Plutonium rather than U235. You don't need a reactor at all---just a series of centrifuges--to enrich uranium to weapons grade.
To make bombs, the Israelis have always needed to import uranium but they don't need already enriched uranium (they can enrich themselves) even though it might save them some time. And they were always able to buy as much uranium ore as they wanted from South Africa.
But, I'm no nuclear weapons designer and am simply wondering why U235 would be especially attractive to Israel.Replies: @res, @reiner Tor
I remember reading somewhere that the Dimona plant was the strongest nuclear plant not used to generate energy. The only other possible use is producing plutonium. Therefore, it always seemed inescapable to me that Israel has plutonium bombs. Otherwise the mere existence of Dimona couldn’t be explained at all.
Perhaps initially they purchased the slightly enriched U235 uranium so that they could produce a few gun design bombs, while still working on the implosion devices. That’s probably the best approach if you need a bomb very quickly, but want to achieve perfection eventually. A gun type bomb is worse than an implosion device for basically any purpose, therefore, probably, all countries want to create one like that.
https://www.amazon.com/Divert-Shapiro-Diversion-Weapons-Uranium/dp/0982775709/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579359&sr=1-1&keywords=divert
There is a conspiracy theory though. The conspiracy theory is that Kennedy wasn't going to allow Israel to develop nuclear weapons which is why he was dispatched. Johnson agreed to Kennedy's removal and allowed the uranium and technical secrets to be smuggled to Israel. Here's a book about the Israeli/Kennedy conspiracy theory:
https://www.amazon.com/Final-Judgment-Missing-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/0974548405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492579639&sr=1-1&keywords=final+judgement+by+michael+collins+piperReplies: @Opinionator, @bob sykes, @TheJester, @Olorin
Yep, same here. The diversion of fissile MUF was so well known that there was a PBS documentary on Kerr McGee’s fissile material accounting program, probably late ’70s. I wrote a report on it in high school from stuff I was reading in snips and snaps in the Newspapers Of Record.
FAS published a book on the topic a few years ago:
https://fas.org/blogs/fas/2014/03/u-s-military-nuclear-material-unaccounted-missing-action-just-sloppy-practices/
Chapter 1 in full:
http://npolicy.org/books/2014muf/Ferguson%20Chapter%201.pdf
Below, PiltdownMan (#4) picks up the Zalman Shapiro matter as reported via NSA/GWU. It was not lost on goy Pennsylvanians that Arlen Specter was Shapiro’s attorney. (Nor on the Quaker Jews of my acquaintance, n.b.)
http://www.israellobby.org/nukes/specter/default.asp
For a quickie primer on the (1977) historical moment in the ’70s (amazing to see it again after all these years, and so easily):
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-case-of-karen-silkwood-19770113
This was 1977. I was in college by then.
In the ’70s and ’80s concern about the dangers of a nuclear industry run on Wild West/Middle East principles united a wide range of people IME. We who had grown up with Soviet ICBM targets painted on our neighborhoods and downwind from TMI/ground and atmospheric testing were very much aware of anything related to this.
Then there’s the whole issue of just who it was who pushed the Manhattan Project to make sure the US made nukes, who they got used on, and who spied to make sure Big Bolshie back in the USSR got them. Wonder whether somebody didn’t conclude at some point it was better just to out and out hand the capacity over to Israel. For whatever reasons. Behind whatever scenes, and right out in the open of others.
Mordy's contribution to humanity will echo through the ages. :)Replies: @Olorin
HEY!
No less a luminary than Kristen Gillibrand cited this to the US PTO as a reason Zalman should get the National Medal of Technology and Innovation!
http://www.israellobby.org/nukes/specter/gillbrand.pdf
http://npolicy.org/books/2014muf/Ferguson%20Chapter%201.pdfBelow, PiltdownMan (#4) picks up the Zalman Shapiro matter as reported via NSA/GWU. It was not lost on goy Pennsylvanians that Arlen Specter was Shapiro's attorney. (Nor on the Quaker Jews of my acquaintance, n.b.)http://www.israellobby.org/nukes/specter/default.aspFor a quickie primer on the (1977) historical moment in the '70s (amazing to see it again after all these years, and so easily):http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-case-of-karen-silkwood-19770113This was 1977. I was in college by then.In the '70s and '80s concern about the dangers of a nuclear industry run on Wild West/Middle East principles united a wide range of people IME. We who had grown up with Soviet ICBM targets painted on our neighborhoods and downwind from TMI/ground and atmospheric testing were very much aware of anything related to this.Then there's the whole issue of just who it was who pushed the Manhattan Project to make sure the US made nukes, who they got used on, and who spied to make sure Big Bolshie back in the USSR got them. Wonder whether somebody didn't conclude at some point it was better just to out and out hand the capacity over to Israel. For whatever reasons. Behind whatever scenes, and right out in the open of others.Replies: @Steve Sailer
Kerr was a brilliant guy who could have been president except he was so crooked.
The way I see the lessons of communism for Jews is that they (meaning a large subset of Jews, often supported by other Jews, see for example Jacob Schiff) tried to ally with the working class against gentile elites and middle classes. (I don't think it was wholly conscious, but it doesn't matter.) The result was that those elites and especially the middle classes turned on Jews, the most horrible example being Nazism. Another result was that where the struggle of the working classes was successful (essentially, Soviet communism and its offshoots in Eastern Central Europe and the Balkan), the new generation of gentile leaders descending from those lower classes also turned on the Jews.
With cultural Marxism, they are allying with gentile white elites and other races (mostly immigrants except US blacks and the old immigrant Gypsies in some Southeast European countries) what could happen is that either the whites become hostile to Jews and take revenge, or the new nonwhite groups discard the Jews after becoming majority. Or actually both could happen at the same time, especially if for example in Europe the white remnants convert to Islam and then let loose their brewing anti-Jewish feelings.
Jews don't have much more time to correct this than gentile whites, in fact, the clock might run out earlier, since by the time gentile whites turn to nationalism, it might be too late for Jews to join in the fight against multi-culturalism. On the other hand, if white gentiles themselves will be too late (and I wouldn't bet against it), then mazel tov, Israel, you'll be on your own, with no major friendly powers left. Of course, Jews won't feel welcome in the Galut either.Replies: @Olorin
But how about a subpopulation that relies on Catastrophe as their unifying mythos?
Including ones that have few to no historical facts supporting them.
See Andrew Joyce on Russell Gmirkin on Old Testament scholarship:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/exodus-redux-jewish-identity-and-the-shaping-of-history/
Friends in OK and AR told me that too from having worked or interacted with him in various policy capacities, or having heard from older colleagues who did.
Big oil, big water, big nuke, big guns. That’s heady hooch for a teetotallin’ Baptist boy born in Chickasaw territory.
I suppose he had a Biblical view of Israel. Prob worth looking up sometime.
Related, and very interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident