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Why Did Fertility Go Up in Mongolia?
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With fertility at low levels in Eurasia and the Americas, it’s worth looking at one Asian country that is still replicating itself:

There was a documentary a decade ago called Babies that filmed eight-month-olds in Mongolia, Tokyo, San Francisco, and Namibia. Mongolia looked like the best place to learn to walk: you live in a tent with a soft floor, grass everywhere outside, and fun animals to play with.

It was kind of like a meme about the Virgin Tokyo Baby who keeps slipping when he tries to walk on the polished wood floor versus the Chad Mongolian Baby in his yurt who walks triumphantly by holding on to a goat.

 
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  1. Daniel H says:

    Why has no ever tried to explain this?

    I’ll give it a shot.

    1) Racial homogeneity

    2) No immigration.

    3) Decent wages/compensation

    4) LOTS OF CHEAP LAND. LOTS OF CHEAP LAND.

  2. Tark Marg says: • Website
    @Daniel H

    Then you need to explain why there was an upsurge around 2002, because the above factors have always held.

    I’d add to the above factors the collapse of the Soviet inspired regime in 1990 which had presumably pushed women’s lib theretofore, combined with a large preexisting nomadic population with limited access/susceptibility to modern enervations.

    • Replies: @Alden
  3. Maybe some kind of ambient sense of genocide, related to Mongolian identity? Hard to say especially with the Asian fertility numbers dropping and nobody in the last 15 years being very smart about humans. It’s widely accepted a community who lives through genocidal war will reproduce enthusiastically, but validating eradication/mass procreation kind of deified in Mongol historical cosmology? Is that active in a Mongolian mother’s self-awareness? Maybe? Didn’t we all expect 4 billion Chinese 20 years ago? What was that based on?

  4. There’s nothing else to do in the Mongol Uls but drink horse milk liqueur and watch yaks f•••. Might as well breed.

    They might consider hosting attempts at the land speed record in the high steppes. But be careful… if you’re guilty of an infraction, traffic cops are authorized to remove your license plate:

    TIM: This Is Mongolia

  5. Mongolia looked like the best place to learn to walk: you live in a tent with a soft floor, grass everywhere outside, and fun animals to play with.

    … in the summer.

    It’s cloudy and a balmy -20 (-4F) this morning in Ulaanbaatar.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    , @Alden
  6. inertial says:

    Here’s my best theory. Mongolian economy crashed in the 1990s and a lot of women decided to delay childbirth. When economy recovered these women partially caught up. If I am right Mongolian fertility will soon begin to come down.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    , @Peter Akuleyev
  7. @AnotherDad

    Yeah. A rather dumb speculation. He probably thinks his speculation is genetic. It’s not. It’s Lamarckian.

  8. This is a statistical artifact. If you look at the population pyramid, there is a notable bulge of people currently in their prime reproductive years which is creating an echo boom and juicing up the TFR numbers. Mongolia has a total population of 3.3 million people—slightly smaller than Oklahoma in an area the size of Alaska. It isn’t hard to for any aberration to shove the averages around.

    • Agree: Spect3r
    • Thanks: res, ic1000, Obstinate Cymric
    • Replies: @International Jew
  9. Alden says:
    @AnotherDad

    Toddling through piles of animal manure was a big cause of infant and early childhood deaths. Maybe the Mongolians have finally put the animals into corrals separate from where the little ones play.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  10. Alden says:
    @Tark Marg

    The Soviets were only able to impose woman’s lib on the blue eyed nations of their Empire. And the nomads were the freest of all their subject peoples.

    Why is other people’s fertility of such interest to the MEN OF UNZ? From hysteria about over population to hysteria about low fertility in one generation.

  11. AKAHorace says:

    Unrelated but of interest, a program for teaching Canadian primary and secondary students to recognize fake news:https://newsliteracy.ca/

  12. @Daniel H

    “LOTS OF CHEAP LAND. LOTS OF CHEAP LAND.”

    Dear Steve:

    Mongolia has long been known for Affordable Horde Formation.

    Racists have SEIZED and POUNCED on the fact that the vibrant, diverse bands of emigrants led by Genghis Khan (a tamer of horses (and women) who earned the appellation of “Filly Buster”) slaughtered something like 40 million people, but it should be added that the Emperor of All Men did Build Back Better.

    BTW according to the Persian historian Rashid al-Din, the above-mentioned globalist had red hair.
    And yes, it’s true – Emperor Biden once sniffed my locks and repeated a famous line from John Wayne’s “The Conqueror” – “You’re beautiful in your wrath.”

    Give Till It Yurts,
    Temujin Psaki

    cc Charles Lamb, Jack Weatherford

  13. syonredux says:

    I wonder if the lead will be a Black Latinx?

    ‘Zorro’ Drama With Female Lead From Robert & Rebecca Rodriguez, Sean Tretta & Propagate In Works At The CW

    This is a new incarnation of the project, which was in development at NBC during the 2020-21 cycle, with Tretta as a new addition to the brother-and-sister writing team of Robert and Rebecca Rodriguez.

    Co-penned by the trio and to be directed by Rebecca Rodriguez, in Zorro, a young Latinx woman seeking vengeance for her father’s murder joins a secret society and adopts the outlaw persona of Zorro. I hear the story by Robert and Rebecca Rodriguez was already in place when Tretta, who has an overall deal at CBS Studios, came on board earlier this cycle to write the script.

    https://deadline.com/2022/01/zorro-drama-female-lead-robert-rodriguez-rebecca-rodriguez-sean-tretta-propagate-the-cw-1234907693/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  14. It might be due to the sharp rise in GDP – from mining – starting around 2005.

    Here is a recent documentary on how Mongolia went from 10% per year economic growth to having problems.

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  15. Bill P says:
    @inertial

    Probably right. The 90s sucked for all Soviet states and satellites (like Mongolia). In the late 90s every Mongol woman I saw in Beijing was a prostitute. They used to hang out at hotels that catered to Westerners, where the Capitol Police (who were their de facto pimps) allowed them to ply their trade.

    A few were stunningly attractive. Some of them were treated pretty badly by Chinese and Westerners alike, and as an American I still feel ashamed about that. I knew some personally, because they were my age and we’d go out to the same clubs.

    Most of them had African lovers because they were about the same social status. That trend ended abruptly when a bunch of Africans, including an acquaintance of mine, got arrested for being mules for counterfeit US dollars printed in Iran.

    Furthermore, an African gave a few Mongol girls HIV right about that time, which became a national scandal in Mongolia. I had warned the girls about that; they were shockingly naive.

    Things slowly got better for Mongolia and, I hope, some of these pretty girls went home, put their past behind them, and started families. It seems that’s what has happened there.

    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @AndrewR
  16. SafeNow says:


    An easy one. It coincided with the new, huge popularity of “Mongolian Barbecue” restaurants in Southern California. Suddenly in Mongolia they realized that a new generation of Mongolian immigrants would be needed to staff the new cuisine.

  17. @SafeNow

    I went to a Mongolian barbecue in Houston in 1977. The Mongolian barbecue in Sherman Oaks went out of business after about 30 years not too many years ago.

    • Replies: @Veteran Aryan
  18. It’s worth noting that Kazakhstan followed basically the same dip and rise in fertility as Mongolia, so it’s somewhat unlikely that yurts are implicated here.

  19. Anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alden

    Toddling through piles of animal manure was a big cause of infant and early childhood deaths.

    What caused the deaths?

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Catdog
  20. Nathan says:

    Ah, Mongolia! Where the men are MEN:

    And the women are HOT:

    I have personally never been to Mongolia, but I have it on very good authority that the women are among Eurasia’s most beautiful.

  21. Alrenous says: • Website

    American men are supposed to act like women. When you live in a grass hut, sophisticated arguments tend not to fly very well. Lowwit vs. midwit. Even if we assume they’re aware of the latest moral fashions, they’re going to notice it’s directly contrary to their interests.

    Women are not particularly interested in breeding with other women, for some reason.

  22. Rob says:

    Broadly, like three-four situations where people reproduced

    1) hunter-gatherers
    2) pre-industrial farming
    3) the early modern era
    4) the modern era in the third world

    In all of those situations, women did not have much in the way of birth control. In most, no one had a tv, and virtually everyone did some form of physical labor. Perhaps interestingly, there have been few situations in which city folk had replacement-level fertility. I think I’ve mentioned that all those “Romans” in the city of Rome late in the Empire from everywhere and beyond have no genetic continuity with the Romans who live there today. The city folk foreigners all died without issue. Thinking you’re going to flee whatever city (or ‘burb) you live in and join the rural economy? Maybe you will, but that plan did not work out in other dying states. The current Romans have much more in common genetically with Rome of, say, 500 BC than the great masses of foreigners. The early Romans and the current ones are both descended from surrounding farmers, purely Italian. Well, except for the Eritreans and sundries from what used to be Yugoslavia. The Romans of 4000 AD? They will probably be descended from Italians, too.

    Now, just because they have a low Fst, a measure of how much genetic difference there are within populations versus between them, does not mean they have not been selected on traits. Take the 500 tallest Detroiters and then the 500 tallest Detroit women. Put them on an island paradise. Drop food and medicine. Come back in three generations. That third generation will be quite a bit taller than their ethnic cousins in Detroit, but they will have minuscule Fst with them. Wondering how closely related your family is to your wife’s family? Try Fst-ing them! But ask for consent first.

    Those imaginary tall black people were selected on one trait for one generation. Most real evolution has involved selection on a bunch of traits simultaneously. The changeover from hunting and gathering to farming was rough. Cochran and Harpending discussed the rapid genetic changes from 10,000 BC or so to about 1940 in the 10,000-year explosion. If I remember correctly, the genetic change was 100-fold faster than before? So, 1,200,000 years of pre-civilization evolution. One point two million years ago, homo Erectus was in full flower. Do you know how all living human populations are “modern” as opposed to archaic?

    [MORE]

    Let’s look at archeological criteria for being a “modern” or “archaic Homo sapiens

    Signs of modernity:
    Burial
    Fishing
    Figurative art (cave paintings, petroglyphs, dendroglyphs, figurines)
    Systematic use of pigment (such as ochre) and jewelry for decoration or self-ornamentation
    Using bone material for tools
    Transport of resources over long distances
    Blade technology
    Diversity, standardization, and regionally distinct artifacts
    Hearths
    Composite tools

    Well, all those things are interesting, but from a “modern” perspective, could one come up with criteria that differentiate “modern” from primitive:

    Some possible criteria:

    Create machines that do not operate through human or animal power: Chinese and Persians since maybe 200. Earlier if wind power propelling boat counts. I recall that an African read a book and assembled a windmill. He gave a TED talk about it in 2007. So Even Africans meet these criteria!

    Know something about the relationship between electricity and magnetism. Create electric motors: the Brits hit this in 1832. I’m too lazy to Google this, I’ll just say that yeah, an African probably knows Maxwell’s equations.

    That implies another criterion for “modernity.” Do the people know the language of God? (Not simple equations, like, “if I have three sheep. You take away one sheep and then two sheep. How many sheep do I have?” This question seems to have been answerable before 3BC in Mesopotamia when the “zero” was invented) But the “fundamental” laws were written in differential equations. Newton and Leibniz invented differential equations in 1671. Britain and France tie for modernity here. Maxwell entered “modernity” in 1865 when he discovered his four laws.

    Perhaps Newtonian and Maxwellish physics does not count? Maybe nuclear physics is the cutoff? Intentional fission? As big a change as nuclear power could have been, and maybe still could be, the transistor could be considered modernity. Costa Rica has an Intel fab, so does that make them modern? Lots of ‘Ricans work there, but it was built by Americans. If Americans all disappeared, could the Costa Ricans keep producing chips?

    Pretty obviously, by these criteria only Europe and East Asia are modern. On the one hand, globalism and international trade mean countries specialize. Does that prevent behavioral modernity 2.0? East Asia has gone from growing rice to exporting electronics designed by natives in factories using native labor and management. Nations excluded from the international system, either because their government decides to try autarky or US puts trade restrictions on them typically do not become powerhouses. Iran is more developed than Iraq, but they have not responded to trade restrictions by, I dunno, building their own fabs or anything.

    Maybe economic criteria should define modernity, but what? Limited liability corporations? Capital markets? Venture capital? The assembly line? The von Neumann economy that we should build but will probably be owned by Saudi royalty.

    Anyway, while behavioral modernity is fine for archeologists digging in the dirt, but for those of us looking forward or even up, there should be a term to distinguish Japan from Somalia. More specifically, to distinguish peoples like the Japanese and white Americans from people who have not created or adopted the means of production for anything more advanced than rocks. Can Somalia even produce the AK-47 its pirates use?

    One wonders what SJ Gould would think of applying punctuated equilibrium theory to understanding population differences. Over a million years of response to selection in 10,000 years. Anyone check out that ebook, Erectus Walks Amongst Us? Dude’s premise is that Africans are still Erectus. They are not, but a huge amount of genetic change over a short time means that white and Asian – African distance is probably comparable to sapiens – Erectus differences. Certainly, by extended phenotype, culture, and the built environment, we are far more different from Africans than Africans are from Erectus.

    Back to birthdates. Thanks for hanging in there. You know who’s adapted to modernity? No one, really. The west has been modern, by liberal criteria, for just a few hundred years. The Japanese were mainly rice farmers until maybe 1900. By an interesting yardstick, perhaps modernity began with chemistry? If you take the difference between modern and pre-modern to be the ability to manipulate or biochemistry, we’ve really only been modern since 1960, when Enovid, the first hormonal contraceptive came to the market. Birth control and television combined decoupled status from reproductive success. In a Darwinian sense, the consumerist, compare and try to increase your status vis-a-vis people you will never meet through consumption have been awful for modern peoples’ genes. TV also entertained people. Before tv, people were your entertainment. Kids can be as much fun as puppies!

    Never before have people been both so free and so enchained at the same time. Take slavery. The middle passage was awful, but life for an American slave might not have been much worse than for a poor African or European landless farmer. From a Darwinian perspective, being a slave was a great deal. Statistically, you have had an awful lot of children. But a smart, ambitious woman today might climb high in the management of a company, but if she does not have kids? Her genes would have been better off in a slave.

    Here’s a hypothesis, the closer people are to pre-modern society in lifestyle, but with modern consumption, the more kids they will have. African villagers live almost the way they’ve lived for thousands of years. They compete for status within their village in many ways, but a big one is how many kids they have. Cheap food from white people means that they can grow cash crops. But the modern tech they can access? Vaccines (I know, my hobby horse) mean that all those pregnancies turn into people! That did not use to happen. In the West, people compete for status in a lot of ways. One way is through how high status their kids end up. They prefer fewer kids and invest more in each one.

    In older environments, increased material possessions meant more or healthier kids. More stuff meant their kids got enough to eat or did not freeze in the winter. We still want to accumulate stuff, but in the west, we have pretty much reached enough wealth that how much people invest in their kids does not increase their Darwinian fitness. We must be evolving towards investing less in children because people who invest less in each kid can have more kids.

    Have we already seen the effects of fecundity selection? Someone here said that boomers were wilder than millennials. I think he said that boomers were more like wild animals and millennials more like tame ones. On the Big Five Personality factors, what correlated with having more kids? I saw that women with higher agreeability have more kids. Agreeable men do not. Smart women have fewer kids than dimmer ones, so eventually, we see greater intelligence differences between men and women. Civilization might end before that happens. We might also see men who prefer to marry down more than today. Wanting to consume for oneself competes with having kids, so people might be getting less materialistic.

    One horrible way people might be evolving: pedophilia. If you think about it, pedophiles would have all the reasons everyone else has for having kids. Plus one more. Some day, we might have a half-decent PGRS for pedophilia. It would be interesting to see whether those alleles have been getting more common. That might be how eugenics comes back! For the left and normies, the only thing worse than eugenics is pedophilia. If a woman had an x% risk of her unborn son being a pedophile, how high would x have to be for pro-lifers to say, “not worth the damage to society? Abort!” If anyone here is pro-life, I’d really like to get a feel for how you’d think about this.

    All the above really only applies to white, middle-class people. I have no idea what blacks are breeding themselves to be, but it ain’t good for them or us.

    One more thing, immigration can easily swamp selection. One thing we seem to have seen throughout America is that… something makes us eat the seed corn. WASPs were probably the best upper class any nation has ever had. Where are they now? Swamped by Jews. Jews who are themselves not reproducing. Selection on Americans would eventually produce people who either had kids because they wanted them or had kids because sex is fun and they are too dumb and irresponsible to use birth control. Someone will raise them. The decoupling of status and reproductive success could either carve a people who are not status-seeking, which might be a new sort of human or idiocracy.

    I really hope society figures out a way to get smart women to have more children. I have high hopes for working from home. Up until, I dunno, 1940(?) women could work (outside the upper classes, women have always produced goods and services) and have kids. They lived in towns or neighborhoods with kin or at least coethnics. They could have someone watch the kids for an afternoon. Today? She does not know her neighbors.

    We are at least somewhat impressed by sapiens pushing the Neanderthals to extinction or the Indo-European expansion from India to Iceland. Perhaps we should be equally impressed by the British expansion. Or even the Iberian one, though that did not create modern countries. They did not bring European women, so they had dumber children than British colonists.

    • Replies: @bispora
    , @Muggles
  23. @Alden

    “Why is other people’s fertility of such interest to the MEN OF UNZ? From hysteria about over population to hysteria about low fertility in one generation”

    From ‘interest’ to ‘hysteria’ in two sentences.

    • Replies: @Alden
  24. J.Ross says:

    >be Mongolian
    >learn to walk
    >that is, to travel on their own feet and not on all day and all night horseback for horsemanship mastery
    This displeases Temüjin, they are doing it wrong.

  25. Anonymous[133] • Disclaimer says:

    Mongolia has benefitted, massively, from the Chinese driven resource boom of the 21st century.
    By anyone’s standards, take home pay in the coal mines of Mongolia is exceedingly generous.

    • Replies: @Alden
  26. 22pp22 says:

    Mongolia is a true hellhole. Ulaanbaatar has air so filthy you can taste it, the food is monstrous and the toilets are worse. Half the country is drunk half the time.

    It is very thinly peopled yet they manage to cover great swathes of it with trash.

  27. LondonBob says:
    @kaganovitch

    All the Central Asian states falsify their birth data, Big disparity between this and other data points like school enrolment.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
  28. bispora says:
    @Rob

    And there is the fifth case, Israel, which is not hunter-gather-preindustrial-early modern or third world country and where the TFR for Jewish women was 3.17 in 2019. Even secular Jewish women have a TFR above two…

    • Replies: @Rob
  29. Whatever other qualities Mongolia has, it is not ashamed of its history of conquest, devastation, rape, pillage, and enslavement. It celebrates its past.

    [MORE]

  30. @inertial

    I agree. Hard to extrapolate much over such a short time horizon. US birthrate will probably jump up significantly in two years as well as women make up for lost COVID time but will then drop again.

  31. ic1000 says:
    @Alden

    > Why is fertility of such interest to the MEN OF UNZ?

    Important and interesting?

  32. Tark Marg says: • Website
    @Alden

    Your first paragraph is precisely what I was suggesting, so not sure if and why you seem to disagree.

    Regarding interest in other people’s fertility, because we can learn truth from facts? Because Darwin is right? Because it’s intellectually stimulating?

    Who other than a willfully ignorant Fukuyaman wouldn’t be?

  33. ic1000 says:
    @kaganovitch

    Kazakhstan is an interesting point of comparison, a steppe country like Mongolia but with an entirely different trajectory in the 20th and 21st centuries.

    Here are the fertility and population pyramid charts. Fertility is from the Fed of St. Louis, the Y-axis is “births per 1,000 people” not “Lifetime # kids per woman” but the shape is the same. I couldn’t find the source of Richard Hanania’s graph.

    Crude Birth Rate for Mongolia, 1960-2019
    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SPDYNCBRTINMNG

    Crude Birth Rate for Kazakhstan, 1960-2019
    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SPDYNCBRTINKAZ

    Mongolia Population Pyramid, 2020
    https://www.populationpyramid.net/mongolia/2020/

    Kazakhstan Population Pyramid, 2020
    https://www.populationpyramid.net/kazakhstan/2020/

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  34. Why Did Fertility Go Up in Mongolia?

    The BBQ.

  35. Yes, Mongolians are very athletic, competing at the highest level in international wrestling, both men’s and women’s.

    I’d attended the 2015 World Wrestling Championships in Vegas, and was seated with the Mongolian contingent, mostly middle-aged dudes, downing beers starting at 10:30 in the morning. Additionally, there were a few hot Mongolian babes from LA sitting in front of me. The Mongolian national-team wrestlers all came up into the stands to socialize with this fun clique.

    I was lucky enough to sit right next to a talkative guy — he had wrestled for their national team back in the day — one of the few that spoke good English, who filled me in on the proceedings and bought me a few beers. A couple years later, I’d seen his picture in the news … he’d been elected President!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaltmaagiin_Battulga

    • Replies: @JMcG
  36. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    Diseases caused by filth and germs in the manure.

  37. Alden says:
    @al gore rhythms

    Some of the MEN OF UNZ are hysterical about low fertility. Especially those fathers of 0 to 2 kids constantly denouncing any form of birth control and proclaiming that White women should have 5 or 6 kids. White women not White men. As certain MEN OF UNZ are not aware it takes a man and a woman to make a baby. I won’t name names.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  38. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    There’s a YouTube about the kitchen in a Mongolian mine. Cooking meals for 6,000 Mongolian miners a day.

  39. nebulafox says:
    @Nathan

    “Do not scorn the weak cub. He may become the brutal tiger.” – nebulafox.

  40. Mike Tre says:

    Who ever first drew the chad guy should be remembered with the likes of van Gogh.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  41. Mike Tre says:
    @Alden

    So Mr Alden typed the first sentence of that comment, and Mrs. Alden typed the second.

    You guys are so cute! Do you share the same coffee mug every morning as well?

  42. It’s pretty simple: Children who come of age with nature outside their door grow stronger. As for fertility, maybe there isn’t much else to do inside a yurt than fuck.

    Sounds like a good life!

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @SunBakedSuburb
  43. Sometimes things just happen, without any possible explanation.

    Or maybe Mongol females find this type of music so romantic they immediately want to have babies, to share this beauty and harmonies with their progeny …

  44. @Intelligent Dasein

    So you’re saying there’s no imminent danger of a Genghis Khan-scale invasion of Europe.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  45. AndrewR says:
    @Bill P

    Burn the coal, pay the toll

  46. AndrewR says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Well, there is one other thing. I wonder if they have a fermented yak’s milk version of “whiskey dick” in their language.

    Also I imagine they ride horses for fun a lot. Friends don’t let friends drinl and ride.

  47. @Steve Sailer

    They had a HuHot in western Nebraska for a few years. Folded pretty quick. Letting people who had no idea what Mongolian food was choose their own ingredients seemed like a bad idea to me from the beginning.

  48. Fairly obvious, I’d have thought; Under the Brave New Regime, Industrial Progress has been so marked that many are now riding bicycles instead of horses. Not spending 8 hours a day being pounded between rider and saddle the testes are performing much better,
    Geeze, don’t you guys no nottin?

    • Replies: @JMcG
  49. @22pp22

    Half the country is drunk half the time.

    Among my acquaintance, a 25% Sotturation rate is nothing to write home about.
    (Is that a neologism I just coined?)

  50. @Reg Cæsar

    Whaat?! Taking licence plates? This aggression will not stand, Maaan!

    Off course where I live, you can get away most of the time with driving a car with no tags. Or working lights. Or tread on your tires. Or a license.

  51. George says:

    Copper!!!

    From 2015: Reconstructing historical fertility change in Mongolia: Impressive fertility rise before continued fertility decline

    https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol33/29/33-29.pdf

  52. Coemgen says:

    би аавдаа хайртай means, “I love my dad,” in Mongolian (according to Google Translate).

  53. @Nathan

    They are not. A small number of very beautiful women, but on the whole unspectacular with rectangular torsos, short legs, and chubb but without corresponding bossoms.

  54. @greysquirrell

    Yes, I think this is the answer to Steve’s question. I was there for 3 months in 2012, and mining money was sloshing around. Ulaanbaatar had construction all over, including a new district of modern western-style housing, a new modern hospital, new modern hotel, etc. SUVs and European luxury cars were driving around, and lots of foreigners everywhere spending money. There was a lot of positivity about the future. I don’t know what’s happened since.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  55. @kaganovitch

    It could be related to weather patterns. Rancher-herder fortunes are affected by harsh winters, which reduce herd size. Might affect reproduction.

  56. @Reg Cæsar

    “There’s nothing else to do in the Mongol Uls but drink horse milk liqueur and watch yaks f***. Might as well breed.”

    You’re telling us horse milk and animal husbandry are aphrodisiacs (afrodisiacs)? It appears that you spent your childhood in a rural setting. I rely upon my boyishly handsome face, albino ape body, and skill at witty repartee to lure in the womens. They never even notice my tiny penis.

  57. Thea says:
    @22pp22

    Have you been there? What you described makes me sad.

    I haven’t but I’ve heard that it foreigners even try to talk to local women in the bars they get beaten up by large groups of local men.

    • Replies: @Anon
  58. @Alden

    Why is other people’s fertility of such interest to the MEN OF UNZ? From hysteria about over population to hysteria about low fertility in one generation.

    Alden, you comment only highlights the difference between and women:

    You seem to take this all personally as a woman. These creepy men all concerned about women having kids. Eeewww!

    But actually I–probably a leading “man of Unz” on concern over fertility issues–don’t really care about anyone’s personal fertility other than my own kids. (I wish people well, i hope the people i like and care for have big loving families, but don’t have any great investment in it.)

    But as matter of both
    a) intellectual interest and
    b) concern about the survival and character of Western civilization and the American nation my kids, my posterity will inherit
    fertility is a huge deal.

    I know–as in i can do math–that in any healthy nation fertility must long term be at replacement, which with modern technology is (without doing sex fiddling) at just above two. (“A reproductive age woman must on average replace herself, and some fraction of a male” is the actual rule. What happens in the male department–sex ratio–is actually separable from that, but we are not doing that fiddling yet. And nations that are, are doing it the “wrong” way–excess males–requiring even higher fertility.)

    Then I also know that for national survival long term that fertility must be eugenic. This used to “just happen”. But with modernity and the welfare state, there’s a break between the genetic traits being reproduced and the genetic traits necessary to continue the nation’s functioning at a high level. And potentially the “dip”–deteriorating genetics leading to deteriorating conditions–could be quite severe, or even non-recoverable, where it leads to national/civilizational end. (Invasion and conquest.)

    So who is having the children and how many really really matters. (Race, ethnicity, education and class background–as proxies for various important traits.)

    And this is even more so because America/the West is under the immigration assault. Not under assault, a nation like Japan can dip down to a more reasonable population density and will naturally recover as “breeder” genes come to the fore. Not so for us! JackD’s comment on the Gambians in the Bronx fire spot on: Muffy and Leah–and their quality genes–are on the way out. In the West low fertility and immivasion is a recipe for population replacement–conquest and the end of our race and civilization.

    Bottom line: To anyone intellectually interested in the world–people and civilization–fertility really, really matters. It’s right after immigration/invasion (whatever you want to call it).

    But Alden that doesn’t mean i’m trying to have you tied down, pumped full of hormones and impregnated with a genetically engineered embryo. (My rough take is you are an older mom, happy with your children–good for you! I wish you well.)

    I care about fertility because i care about the survival of civilization–specifically my civilization.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Thanks: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  59. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    “Female Zorro,” but not “Zorra.” “Zorra,” female fox, also means slut.

  60. @Buzz Mohawk

    “… maybe there isn’t much else to do inside a yurt than [f***]. … Sounds like a good life!”

    How many family members to a yurt? Is the yurt sectioned off for privacy, with some kind of noise cancellation? Unlike farm boy Reg Caesar, you’re a man of the world. How could you bring pleasure to the womens with wizened old Granny listening in?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  61. @AnotherDad

    “I care about fertility”

    Fertility never seemed so creepy.

    “i [sic] care about the survival of civilization — specifically my civilization.”

    Other than watching corporate sports, attending backyard BBQs, lower-casing “I” like a dipshit kid, and caring about fertility, what exactly have you done to further Western Civilization?

  62. @22pp22

    No, I want to believe!

    • Replies: @SafeNow
  63. @ic1000

    Thanks ic1000.

    You’re right, this is interesting. I checked the other steppe-stans–Uzbekistan and (the Derb’s favorite) Turkmenistan as well. All three show that same Mongolian pattern–the post-Soviet collapse then a healthy recovery to something that looks to be somewhat above replacement. With the ‘stans you think “Islam”, but Mongolia–Buddhist–makes this more the “steppe” pattern.

    In contrast Tajikistan off in the mountains looks more like its fellow “hillbilly Islam” country–Afghanistan or even Yemen.

  64. @Nathan

    “I have it on very good authority that the women are among Eurasia’s most beautiful”

    You should follow this twitter feed – “Promoting the regeneration of the Aryan race through interbreeding with Steppe women

    😉

  65. SafeNow says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    I will take some savage woman,
    She shall rear my dusky race,
    Iron-jointed, supple-sinewed, they shall dive and they shall run,
    Catch the wild goat by the hair,
    Hurl their lances in the sun.

    -Locksley Hall
    Tennyson

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Thanks: JMcG
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  66. Spect3r says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Scandinavian countries also do that.
    In some infractions, they take your license plates away.

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
  67. JimDandy says:
    @Daniel H

    Standard of living increase. Lots of grass fed beef. Not many vegetables.

  68. nebulafox says:
    @SafeNow

    That’s not Mongolian food.

    This is Mongolian food.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  69. nebulafox says:
    @Alden

    1) Who said anything about Unz being special? Global fertility discussions aren’t exactly rare on Twitter.

    (Also, the developed world’s fecundity issues are hardly limited to Western countries. If anything, East Asia’s got it even worse. Only truly developed country-I refuse to count the Gulfies/Sauds because I’m a petty bastard that likes higher civilizational qualifications than sheer money-that escapes the pattern is Israel, which has a number of non-fungible factors going for it.)

    2) It’s a field where the last 50 years of human behavior often diverges significantly from the previous 5000 in the developed world. So, yeah, kind of a big deal.

    • Replies: @Travis
  70. @International Jew

    So you’re saying there’s no imminent danger of a Genghis Khan-scale invasion of Europe.

    I wouldn’t necessarily commit to that statement. The way Europe is these days, I think 50,000 determined, unified, and non-pussified men could probably do whatever they please with the place. It will be like Thermopylae all over again—only this time, we’re the Persians.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  71. Twinkie says:
    @nebulafox

    What? Are you telling me Teriyaki chicken from Genghis Grill is not authentic Mongolian food?

    https://www.genghisgrill.com/menu

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Inquiring Mind
  72. @Daniel H

    Dan, supply side problem, no oil, no latex, no condoms.

  73. Anon[136] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thea

    That’s not true at all and foreign men are actually quite popular with Mongolian women.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Thea
  74. @Mike Tre

    Who ever first drew the chad guy should be remembered with the likes of van Gogh.

    It looks more like a Picasso—very cubist. No real human being could be seen from that many different perspectives at once in normal space.

  75. @Spect3r

    In Minnesota, in years prior to the Somalian invasion, if one drove after having their driving license revoked or suspended and was caught, they seized the plates.

    Minnesota used to be Scandinavian. Swedes and Norwegians looking down their noses at Finns.

    • Replies: @Spect3r
    , @loren
  76. Muggles says:
    @Rob

    When is your book coming out?

    Or are you doing chapters here on iSteve?

    • Replies: @Rob
  77. @SafeNow

    Way back in the 1990’s, “Mongolian Barbecue” was a thing in the Detroit area, specifically Royal Oak. That’s around the time of the bottoming of fertility.

    You are telling me that SoCal was late to a trend?

  78. Muggles says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    There was a lot of positivity about the future. I don’t know what’s happened since.

    That’s the way I feel about the time around the 2016 elections.

  79. Muggles says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You might be interested in the recent book, The Horde, about the sons and descendants of Genghis Khan. This family ruled all of their neighbors for several hundred years.

    This book is mainly about Jochi, whose Jochid Horde ruled most of eastern Europe/Russia/the ‘stans for hundreds of years.

    The Mongol “hordes” (as they called themselves) were like a successful and much more fearsome group of American Indian tribes, had the Indians gone on to dominate the European North Americans.

    They had many admirable traits though they were more like an outright Mafia in governance. You paid their tax or else. Otherwise they promoted trade, were religiously tolerant and kept largely to themselves.

    According to this well researched book their “trade taxes” amounted to only about 10%, so quite a bargain compared to our modern mafia democracies. That’s the lowest IRS income tax rate. So unMongolian!

    They have gotten a bad historical press since they didn’t have a written language and all accounts of them were written mainly by, as our former President once called his impotent foes, the losers.

  80. nebulafox says:
    @Muggles

    Jochi requires an asterisk if we talk about biological descendants. Due to his maybe, maybe-not paternity, he was never a realistic contender to become Great Khan. McLynn said not, I personally remain agnostic on the matter.

    It should be noted that what Genghis Khan did with accepting Jochi in the first place-and his chief wife back without any issue-probably marks him as deeply unusual in the context of his culture.

  81. nebulafox says:
    @SaneClownPosse

    It’s also been a thing in Japan for a while, so SoCal might not even be behind just America. Yay! Suck up the cultural inferiority for once, hippies! /sarcasm

    I really have no idea why it is called “Mongolian” BBQ, but then, Mongolian beef of American-Chinese fame probably doesn’t derive from Mongolia, either.

  82. nebulafox says:
    @Muggles

    >They have gotten a bad historical press

    I don’t know. It seems pretty clear that even on pre-modern world standards, where the victory-in-war == rape-pillage-plunder-kill routine was just accepted practice in every society world-wide, the Mongols were unusual in their degree of brutality. Certainly they were unusual enough to be noted as such by contemporaries, and I don’t think it was just because they were scary steppe savages. Much like the Assyrians of Biblical notoriety, it was partially a designed strategy to ensure scared civilians surrendered, but their cultural values and ethical system were also deeply primitive, to put it mildly.

    That’s why they didn’t last. They got absorbed into the more sophisticated, advanced cultures they conquered (China, the Islamic World, etc), and were too alien to ever hope to do the reverse.

    Tangentially related, but Razib Khan has a piece up there that argues the first modern, intentional genocide against an entire race rather than city-state (important to remember that it was disease that killed most of the Aztecs: Spaniard brutality was just salt on the wound) was carried out by the Qing against the final remnants of the peoples that made up the Mongols.

    https://razib.substack.com/p/made-in-china

  83. JMcG says:
    @Jim from Boston

    That, my man, is a great story! Thanks for posting it.

    • Agree: ic1000
  84. JMcG says:
    @Bill Jones

    When my brother was having trouble having kids, the doc told him to quit riding his bike. He has four kids now. Never had a horse as far as I know.

  85. George says:

    Is Mongolia a remittance nation? Maybe parents figured out some of their kids would end up working in China or Russia and then send some ¥ or ₽ back home. So they had more kids.

  86. nebulafox says:
    @Twinkie

    I’ll try my best to mix serious and non-serious here… unless you are from Seattle, I don’t think one’d be quite that dumb. Or arrogant enough to pretend that one, the wise multicultural paragon of liberal fantasia, knows for convo points with snotty Bay Area refugees after slyly looking up Wikipedia on the phone. 😛

    (Of course, you’d have to go to the smaller towns across the Sound or non-base/Hilltop adjacent areas of Tacoma for any teriyaki joke to literally apply for a long time now, but the point still stands. Internet is breeding neurotics. Horrible way to live, always putting on act.)

  87. Travis says:
    @nebulafox

    anyone with White children should be concerned with White fertility. If White fertility remains below 1.7 the number of Whites in America will decline rapidly. The reason Whites will be a minority in 20 years is due to low White fertility. Anyone who is concerned with the future state of America and western culture should be concerned with White fertility. Would you want your grandchildren to live in a nation which is 50% White or in a nation which is 30% White ? This will be determined by the white fertility rate.

    in the year 2090 there will be ~450 million people living in America and ~125 million Whites. So just 27% of the US population will be white when the White babies born this year will be 70 years-old. But if White fertility continues falling the White population could be as low as 100 million in 75 years. The White population under the age of 40 has declined by 30% since 1990. This is the only population which matters to our future as they are the only Whites capable of having children.

    Year – US Whites under the age of 40
    1990 – 121,000,000
    2005 – 105,000,000
    2020 – 87,000,000
    2035 – 70,000,000
    2050 – 51,000,000

    The White population is collapsing due to low fertility combined with miscegenation. While the fertility of White females may be ~1.6 the true fertility is actually ~1.5 since 7% of children born to White mothers will be non-white. So while White females birthed 1.8 million children last year, only 1.7 million are actually white. It takes two whites to produce a White child. When a White female breeds with a Non-White the child will never be White. Anyone not concerned with White fertility has no concern for the future of America and the future world their grandchildren will live in. White fertility is more important than immigration to the future of the United States.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  88. nebulafox says:
    @Travis

    I am interested in the United States and its fate. No more, no less. And I don’t borrow the gay-ass cue of capitalizing racial designations from BLM.

    I am also a believer in human nature. Remove abnormal conditions, encourage normal human behavior, make socioeconomics conditions not completely hostile, don’t have a toxic culture. People make babies. It’s that simple. It’s the deepest biological drive we got, so you don’t need ideal, just not abnormally bad. As for immigration, what’s done is done with the last couple decades, but we need a digestion period badly if we are going to handle a scale of truly global influx unprecedented at least in our history and get Americans-nothing but Americans-out of all.

    (I used to feel like a massive whopping hypocrite on immigration restrictionism, which is why it took me time to drift there. But no more, seeing the sheer venality for those who want Americans as serfs.)

  89. @SaneClownPosse

    Way back in the 1990’s, “Mongolian Barbecue” was a thing in the Detroit area, specifically Royal Oak. That’s around the time of the bottoming of fertility.

    Bd’s Mongolian Grill are still there, 30 years later:

    https://locations.gomongo.com/?q=48104

  90. Rob says:
    @bispora

    That’s a good point. I’m embarrassed I missed it. There’s one in general: when a people feel asabiya and think they are climbing in the world. I’ll bet that Germany’s fertility went up in Hitler was elected to the start of the crazy, stupid war.

    I have heard that Jewish fertility in Israel is heavily driven by the Hassidic. One day, they will have to do useful work. Not because the secular Jews will force them to, but because there will be 30 million of them and 5 million secular ones. The secular jews won’t be able to support all the crazy ones.

    It seems that every society that has managed high fertility has low female “empowerment.” Education strongly suppresses a woman’s reproduction. Much more than jobs do, even though school usually takes less time in actual work than a career. Could this be fixed? Universities are not a friendly place for the undergraduate with sprog(s). I would think that there’s no on-campus housing for couples and kids. There’s also the matter of who they pick as a father. Women (and men) prefer that the husband is successful, and success at school does not always translate to adult life.

    [MORE]

    But there are exceptions. A bit. The Nordic countries have higher birth rates than the PIGS, despite women being freer in a more egalitarian culture. What would be ways to encourage smart people to have more kids and have them at younger ages? If college were restricted to the somewhat smart, then encouraging college women to have kids might up the birthrate.

    Lots of people marry their college sweetheart not long after graduation. Could that get pushed back to maybe the beginning of junior year? What if married students got better housing, lots of Lamaze classes, and parenting stuff. A discount on tuition? The military does something similar to this, don’t they? They want to encourage people who do well in the military to have families so that the next generation has people who want to join the military. Don’t married enlisted men get to live off base or at least in houses instead of barracks?

    If students are going to borrow a quarter-million dollars, the schools can make life easier for student and grad students to fulfill their evolutionary imperative. I could see colleges polyfurcating into traditional, elite liberal arts. Is there a niche for schools that make life easier for student-parents? Maybe at the crazy Christian schools? I know that historically, white people have put off children until they were established in life, but is that still realistic? Is it even rational? How smart (and conscientious and sociable and,..) mostly determine where you end up in life, no? We are hbd-ers, here. When someone could come out of grad school at 27 and get a tenure-track position at 28, putting off children was doable. Today? When he has to do a few post-doc positions in several cities, and then maybe gets secure employment when he’s 35? People cannot put stuff off like that. Personality gels in the twenties. Physically, kids are easier when you are younger. At 35, the new prof is somewhat set in his ways. He’s been thinking (maybe talking himself into believing it) that life is fulfilling without kids for over a decade.

    I’m thinking that some of the hyper-schooling craze is driven by immigration and a weak job market. When jobs are hard to come by, lots of people try more education. When companies have a huge pool of applicants, they get pickier. I remember reading that the economy was so strong under Trump and immigration reduced to the point that companies were expanding their searches. People with disabilities got hired. Even people with criminal records. I think that the opioid crisis shows that environment does influence life outcomes. The working class was functional when they had factory jobs to go to. Take away the jobs and add powerful drugs? Life outcomes get worse for a lot of people. Is that a ratchet, though? Like, if factories started coming back to the rust belt and paid high wages, say, 25/hour after a year, would people currently living for opioids claw their way back to working-class respectability? Would they still have so many unwed mothers if men could make enough money to support their kids?

    I’m afraid it might be a ratchet. Cultures build up over decades and even centuries. That can be undone in a generation if kids don’t learn it. Or worse, they do learn it, try to apply it, and it fails drastically.

    I’m of two minds about demographic shifts. The first is positivist. I want good things for my country and our citizens. I want life to get better for foreigners, but I want them to stay home. The other is thinking more in line with evolutionary biology. Whatever happens, happens. Evolution is interesting. If the white working-class dies back because their niche is taken over by cheaper-living Hispanics, then that is interesting. If the billionaire class breeds themselves tall, blond, and smart (i would), then that is interesting, too. If Africans explode out of the dark continent, bringing a dark age to the entire world, that’s bad, but it’s also interesting.

    It’s really bad that at least two subcultures with huge influence have gone nuts/evil. I’ve mentioned the O-Ring theory of economic development. A commenter here, but I forget who tied the key insights of O-ring theory to diversity. (if you read this, and it was you, please give me a permalink to the comment, or at least tell me your name) A company has 40 tasks that have to be completed in series. All are necessary. If each task t has an equal probability of success, then the overarching project has a probability of success of (t)^40. Affirmative action specifically, snd the elites’ desire to look at dark people in important positions makes t lower than it has to be. If t is .97, then taken to the fortieth power is basically zero.

    A key insight of o-ring theory is that total production is maximized by having a high probability of success people working with each other and having separate groups of low ability people working together, rather than mixed ability groups. This makes sense if one expands from ‘task success’ to ‘ability to function in civilization. Given (black) savages and civilized whites living nearby, civilization, quality of life, is maximized by segregation. It just takes one jogger (in the pre-Arbery sense) getting shot in a drive-by to have a chilling effect on other runners in the neighborhood. Putting all the guys likely to do drive-bys together means just one area is ruined instead of the whole city.

    In general, the rapidly declining human capital of America concerns me. Coupled with putting dumb people or saboteurs in important roles, we really won’t function well. The military that right-wingers sometimes thought would make a good provisional government is run by liars and incompetents. Maybe we could handle it better if we could sort people more accurately, but the people who fucking love science sure do hate the science of psychometrics. I have a feeling that if blacks weren’t dumber psychometrics would be more accepted on the left.

    To anyone who lives in a heavily hispanified area. Do they get more civilized here? Like, is the problem in Mexico not the people but the elites? Do they do a lot better when governed by white people? Hell, are they at least docile?

    I don’t want to place my hopes for the future on sci-fi blue sky scenarios. Like, if we could change a gene or two and increase IQ by 40 points. Then grow the resulting children in exowombs powered by thorium cycle nuclear reactors. Nanny robots can raise the children, freeing mothers to work on their careers in von Neumann economy cities. Then we’d be golden! For one thing, as society declines, we get less and less able to implement new solutions.

    Maybe the solution will be social tech? I wonder sometimes, did medieval peasants live worse lives than Roman slaves? I concede that the climate in Italy is nicer than in Germany, but there were peasants in Italy, too. Like, what if a new religion-ideology that was science-based in science things that the left does not believe, like hbd. Could a new religion even happen these days? What about an ideology? Intentional communities? I think tending one’s garden does not work when the garden is in the middle of a forest fire.

    Sorry to have such a disjointed comment.

  91. @Twinkie

    Actually, Mongolian grill is a Taiwanese phenomenon. Kind of like Greek restaurants are operated by Albanians. No fries, cheeps?

  92. Rob says:
    @Muggles

    I don’t think I could write a book. My thoughts are too disjointed. When I start writing a comment I have no idea what’s going to come out.

    Plus, i’d be canceled soooo quickly.

  93. @SunBakedSuburb

    Yes, that is a problem. We must have privacy, thus the freedom to make noise. The only way a yurt would do is for it to be strictly private. What do we know? Maybe there are private yurts for two people.

    Even in many of our modern dwellings, this is a problem. Painfully, I must say there are many apartments with very thin walls…

  94. Hi There says:
    @Daniel H

    No. Wages are generally inversely correlated with birth rates. If you look at the globe, the countries+demographics with the lowest wages and the most miserable living conditions have the most babies. The countries+demographics with the highest wages and highest standards of living have the least babies.

    The US + Europe had high birth rates in the past, when most adults worked as farmers, didn’t go to college, kids often served as labor, parental sacrifice was lower, people got married in their late teens or early 20s, people didn’t have birth control or modern medicine. That was a radically different culture, we aren’t going back to that.

    The single biggest factor is willpower. People need to want to have babies of their own while they are young adults and focus less on the issues of the globe.

    This crowd should focus less on politics and more on having more kids in your own lives. If you are too old, find the next best option, such as investing in helping close friends/family do so.

  95. Hi There says:

    I’d like to see this crowd of men spend less effort talking about global politics and more taking their own lives into their own hands and doing meaningful things like raising children.

  96. Anonymous[159] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    A few years back – and characteristically – a black African stereotypical hustler, possibly a circus performer or some such, I forget, managed to infect a whole village worth’s of Mongolian women with HIV.

  97. @SafeNow

    Be fair. Tennyson only lusted for a savage woman after being rejected by his cousin Amy – and not on grounds of consanguinity either.

    In the Spring a livelier iris changes on the burnish’d dove;
    In the Spring a young man’s fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love.

    Then her cheek was pale and thinner than should be for one so young,
    And her eyes on all my motions with a mute observance hung.

    And I said, “My cousin Amy, speak, and speak the truth to me,
    Trust me, cousin, all the current of my being sets to thee.”

    On her pallid cheek and forehead came a colour and a light,
    As I have seen the rosy red flushing in the northern night.

    And she turn’d—her bosom shaken with a sudden storm of sighs—
    All the spirit deeply dawning in the dark of hazel eyes—

    Saying, “I have hid my feelings, fearing they should do me wrong”;
    Saying, “Dost thou love me, cousin?” weeping, “I have loved thee long.”

    Love took up the glass of Time, and turn’d it in his glowing hands;
    Every moment, lightly shaken, ran itself in golden sands.

    Love took up the harp of Life, and smote on all the chords with might;
    Smote the chord of Self, that, trembling, pass’d in music out of sight.

    Many a morning on the moorland did we hear the copses ring,
    And her whisper throng’d my pulses with the fullness of the Spring.

    Many an evening by the waters did we watch the stately ships,
    And our spirits rush’d together at the touching of the lips.

    O my cousin, shallow-hearted! O my Amy, mine no more!
    O the dreary, dreary moorland! O the barren, barren shore!

    Falser than all fancy fathoms, falser than all songs have sung,
    Puppet to a father’s threat, and servile to a shrewish tongue!

    Wiki opines: “The first half of the poem portrays him as a victim, but the second reveals that the protagonist holds views that are now recognised as remarkably racist and sexist“.

  98. @Alden

    “Especially those fathers of 0 to 2 kids constantly denouncing any form of birth control and proclaiming that White women should have 5 or 6 kids. “

    I must admit to not noticing these commenters. The only commenter here who AFAIK has said they’re childless is Buzz, and he’s conspicuously NOT a “have babies at all costs” type.

    Young childless commenters, if any, are ok making such proclamations – they have to take time to choose and choose wisely, aware that nothing is guaranteed in life, especially when the incentives are skewed. And each of us will have a different range of available choices – I’ve been told women have a say as well 😉

    If could be that “a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest” or it could be that Ms “I won’t name names” is saying that because there aren’t any to name.

  99. @Muggles

    10%, wow. What about state tax, FICA, gas, sales…?

    What I’m not clear on is, were the Mongols and the Turks the same people?

    • Replies: @Muggles
  100. Spect3r says:
    @SaneClownPosse

    I lived in Stavanger (Norway) and there is a statue there dedicated to the thousands of Norwegian people who migrated to the USA back in the old days.

    Swedes and Norwegian don’t even consider Finns to be Scandinavian lol

  101. @nebulafox

    Razib’s write up is good. And it makes Chinese claims of grievance against Japanese and Western imperialism ring hollow, since the Qing is officially claimed by PRC as a fully Chinese “Zhonghua Minzu” dynasty– and one of the most imperialistic and bloodthirsty of all time.

    But he missed a few key context here–

    1. The Qing Imperial House was not only allied with other Mongols, it was related by blood, by marrying into the Genghsid bloodline:

    https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Qing-Emperors-related-to-Genghis-Khan

    So the Dzungars are far more related to the Qing, than Herero to the Germans, Armenians to the Turks etc.

    2. The bloodletting the Qing carried out against Han Chinese was absolutely baleful. The Yangzhou massacre, carried by by Qing troops, many of them Han themselves, numbered in victims of 800,000, were one of many that took place in southern China
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangzhou_massacre

    The institution of the queue order was a direct humiliation of Han tradition

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queue_(hairstyle)#Queue_order

    It would be farcical later, that the Chinese laborers, would object to San Francisco government forcing them to cut off their queues, as if its an affront to Chinese tradition

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigtail_Ordinance

    When it was a custom brutally forced on them by Manchus to begin with.

  102. @Muggles

    They have gotten a bad historical press since they didn’t have a written language and all accounts of them were written mainly by

    They did:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_History_of_the_Mongols

  103. @Daniel H

    Mongolians:
    Fresh air, exposure to nature, walking on the ground, and sunlight during the day and natural darkness and quiet at night, and eating a protein and fat rich, animal based diet free of processing and additives.

    Namibia: Flies, poor, nutrient deficient diet of carbohydrates, parasite loads on the immune system, and lack of anything visually or mentally stimulating.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  104. Babies born in San Francisco? I didn’t think there had been a birth in San Francisco since Mike Stone and Steve Keller went off the air.

  105. Thea says:
    @Anon

    The women aren’t the ones throwing punches. Mongolian men hate western men taking their women.

  106. loren says:
    @SaneClownPosse

    how stupid. look down on Whites and vote in an invasion.

  107. Muggles says:
    @International Jew

    I”m not an expert.

    Mongols and Turks don’t consider themselves to be the same as they have different languages, customs and original homelands.

    There was some intermixing in areas that the Mongols conquered but they were not very numerous.

    Mongols come from Mongolia and parts of what is now Chinese Western Mongolia. Also parts of Siberia.

    Turks are from much further south and west.

    I don’t know what the DNA shows. Mongols installed rulers/khans in Turkic areas they defeated, which is all of them.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  108. @Muggles

    Maybe the question isn’t meaningful. When you’ve got a bunch of tribes living a wandering, migrating, horseback life over 5 million square miles, grabbing one anothers’ women as the opportunity arises, all while leaving little to no written record, the lumper/splitter thing becomes irrelevant.

    I can tell you what the DNA record says without looking at it: everyone from Hungary to Harbin is a little of this and a little of that.

    As for the languages, I suspect that much of the linguistic diversity believed to exist in backward places (New Guinea has 2000 languages?!) reflects nothing more than linguists’ unfamiliarity with the local languages. It would be hard to tell even Russian and English are related, if you had nothing to go on other than fireside banter.

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