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Why Are There So Many L.A. Dodger Fans in Dallas-Fort Worth?
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From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram:

Los Angeles Dodgers World Series shirts sell out hours before Game 1 at Globe Life Field
BY STEFAN STEVENSON
OCTOBER 20, 2020 08:58 PM,

World Series apparel celebrating the National League champion Los Angeles Dodgers sold out at Globe Life Field [in Arlington, TX] before the first pitch of Game 1 Tuesday night.

Plenty of Tampa Bay Rays shirts were still available but Dodgers fans looking for a wearable World Series keepsake were out of luck. …

Because of COVID-19 pandemic precautions, only about 11,000 fans are able to attend each World Series game. In fact, the pandemic is the reason why the league is playing the World Series at the brand new, $1.2 billion stadium. It’s being used to cut down on travel for the players, personnel and media. It was also used for the National League Division Series and NLCS. Typically, the teams playing in the World Series take turns hosting games at their own ballparks.

“The Dodgers are more popular, I guess,” she said. “There have been more Dodgers fans than Rays.”

I doubt if the Dodgers, a very rich franchise who play their homegames after other parts of the country have gone to bed, are grass roots favorites outside of Southern California.

My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas, but miss the Dodgers, while Texas has fewer transplants from Tampa Bay and Orlando. Florida doesn’t have an income tax, and while housing isn’t cheap, it’s a lot cheaper than SoCal.

 
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  1. • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • LOL: Abe
    • Troll: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @personfellowindividual
    @BenKenobi

    The people who live here, pal. We don't want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jus' Sayin'...

  2. The Dodgers are probably #4 in international popularity for MLB apparel, after the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. They’re kind of like the outdoors version of the L.A. Lakers. Dodgers Stadium is a sunny, breezy and pretentious as hell place to be. People show up three innings late and are too cool to stay until the end of the game.

    The L.A. Dodgers are the symbol of the West Coast. A transplanted and chilled out culture. I’m not a big baseball guy, but the only baseball hat I own is a Dodgers one.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Canadian Observer

    "too cool to stay until the end of the game"

    One reason many Dodger fans leave early is because it's more of a family outing, so heading home after 7 innings so the kids can get up for school is a thing. When I moved to Chicago in 1982, I noticed that, in contrast, Cubs games at Wrigley Field were a grown-up thing and nobody left early because they only played day games then and everybody was drunk.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @DCThrowback

    , @Neoconned
    @Canadian Observer

    Aren't they big with latinos too?

    Dallas has a lot of latino transplants. I used to stay briefly in South Dallas....its safer than New Orleans despite having a rough reputation....

  3. Dunno. It’s been my impression that people fleeing California’s taxes and high costs usually end up in other western states like Arizona, Colorado, Nevada and Utah.

    • Replies: @Hannah Katz
    @prosa123

    I wish you were right. However, Austin is full of Calis who moved to get away from the high taxes and cost of living, and immediately set about voting for obnoxious politicians who are trying their darndest to transform Austin and Texas into the same hell hole from where these people fled. The Latinos and dot Indians are trying the same thing. And they claim they are smarter than the locals....

    Replies: @Trinity, @Ben tillman

  4. Anonymous[331] • Disclaimer says:

    Moving to other states and massively accelerating their transformation into shitholes just like the one they fled. Talk about Third World migration.

    Also, since I don’t have Twitter, I’ll say it here: Steve, Albanians are not Slavs. I know the Balkans are largely irrelevant, but kind of disappointed to see you make so obvious a mistake. Not being South Slavs (unlike their rivals) is kind of their whole thing. I think people in Albania might be more focused on enmity with the Greeks or whatever, but in Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia not being South Slavs is a huge part of both how Albanians see themselves and the way they’re seen by others. And a very important factor in the whole Kosovo issue, which was highly volatile long before any real hint of unrest started in the rest of Yugoslavia.

    • Agree: M_Young
  5. @Canadian Observer
    The Dodgers are probably #4 in international popularity for MLB apparel, after the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. They're kind of like the outdoors version of the L.A. Lakers. Dodgers Stadium is a sunny, breezy and pretentious as hell place to be. People show up three innings late and are too cool to stay until the end of the game.

    The L.A. Dodgers are the symbol of the West Coast. A transplanted and chilled out culture. I'm not a big baseball guy, but the only baseball hat I own is a Dodgers one.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned

    “too cool to stay until the end of the game”

    One reason many Dodger fans leave early is because it’s more of a family outing, so heading home after 7 innings so the kids can get up for school is a thing. When I moved to Chicago in 1982, I noticed that, in contrast, Cubs games at Wrigley Field were a grown-up thing and nobody left early because they only played day games then and everybody was drunk.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Father Coughlin
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes and Chicago Cubs games are a major singles pick-up scene.

    , @DCThrowback
    @Steve Sailer

    /cue hilarious lee elia rant

  6. Why root for L.A. when Frisco has a team right next door?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Reg Cæsar

    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

    https://baseballbrains.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/texas_rangers.jpg

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @personfellowindividual

  7. My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas

    A good hypothesis, and probably true. Texas, and much of the Southeast, is full of refugees from Southern California, most of whom came soon after the Rodney King riots. Sell your two-bedroomer in LA, and buy a mansion in Houston. Of course, the climate in Texas sucks, except in the winter, but with air conditioning and a big house, it is bearable.

    • Replies: @PublicSphere
    @Cato

    There is a ton of press coverage of Legacy-Americans moving from CA to TX for political / tax / family formation reasons. GOP pols like former CA assemblyman Chuck DeVore (Irvine), and former CA congressional candidate Paul Chabot (Rancho Cucamonga) have moved to TX and made high-profile efforts to bring CA right-wingers with them.

    However, motivated conservatives are probably far outnumbered by the "educated suburbanite" white-collar workers who simply follow their corporate jobs. Many companies have moved HQs from CA to TX (Toyota, McKesson, Charles Schwab, Jacobs Engineering) and bring their "blue" voters with them.

    Overall, the Dems seem quite optimistic that the "NeverTrump" suburban wine mom vote will eventually help flip the state. The governor was moved to warn the new arrivals against bringing their "high taxes, burdensome regulations, & socialistic agenda" along for the ride:

    https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1220462311506415617?lang=en



    https://www.dallasnews.com/business/2019/04/04/the-west-coast-just-might-be-california-ing-your-north-texas-according-to-a-new-study/


    More Californians move to Dallas-Fort Worth each year than residents of any other state, according to a new NerdWallet analysis of U.S. domestic migration.

    In fact, 8,300 Californians on average packed their bags and moved to the D-FW region each year from 2012 to 2016.
     

    Replies: @3g4me

    , @Ben tillman
    @Cato

    No, the rate of immigration to Texas from California now is ten times greater than it was “soon after the Rodney King riots”. You’re also wrong about the climate.

    Replies: @Cato

  8. Not coincidentally, Texas and Florida are tipping Blue.

    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder


    Not coincidentally, Texas and Florida are tipping Blue.
     
    Not in this election.
  9. My father grew up in Philadelphia, and he was a Dodger fan starting in the 50s, probably because he hated the Yankees and always rooted for the Dodgers to beat them in the World Series.
    As a boy in the 70s he would only take me to see the Phillies when the Dodgers were in town. It did not make me a Dodgers fan. It was tough seeing the Phillies lose to them in the 1977 and 1978 Playoffs.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Travis

    Then the Phightins beat LA in 83, 08, 09.

    , @Ben tillman
    @Travis

    Ain’t that the truth. 1980 was glorious, though.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  10. It has nothing to do with regionalism or ex-pats. The “Dodgers” are a legacy baseball name from back when America was still a country, and baseball was still a sport, not a bizarre monetized tattooed Hispanic video game. To people like me who loved baseball once but are now just too worn down and ashamed to pay attention anymore, Dodgers signifies something and Rays is gibberish.

    Who even knew that Florida had a team? Who knew that Tampa Bay is a place? And, the… “Rays”? Is their mascot a blind black piano player?

    • Agree: unit472
    • Replies: @David In TN
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    "The 'Dodgers' are a legacy baseball team from back when America was still a country,..."

    Yes, the Dodgers have been a "National Team" of sorts since the 50's Brooklyn Dodgers. On the afternoon of July 31, 1965, we were standing outside Sportsman's Park after buying tickets for the Cardinal-Dodger game (which I referred to in a previous thread) that night. We briefly talked to a Dodger fan who was from Los Angeles, don't know if he was transplanted to St. Louis or traveling.

    , @MBlanc46
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    “Blind black piano player”. Naughty.

  11. My guess is Latinos. They can be pretty big bandwaggoners and the men love to spend their prole bucks on sports apparel. A Dodgers cap has a certain cachet.

  12. Dodgers fans probably outnumber Rays fans in Tampa Bay. The Rays have not been able to translate their wins into fans. Probably a combination of 1) South Florida naturally being a bad sports market and 2) their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    Yes, and a third reason is that Florida is a spring training site, so lots of locals pick some distant team that trains nearby to root for.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @The Alarmist
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    Not to mention that the Dodgers used to do their spring training just up the beach at Vero Beach.

    https://activerain-store.s3.amazonaws.com/image_store/uploads/4/3/8/7/4/ar120507298847834.jpg

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Nosferatu Zodd


    ...their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.
     
    Or Jean Drapeau on a spending spree.


    Olympic Stadium, Montreal: that pit of despair we all know and love.


    (How many people can guess Drapeau's party off the top of their têtes?)

    , @meh
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    In spite of being the home of the University of South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area is not in South Florida. You're thinking of Miami.

    In spite of what some might think, the Tampa Bay Area is not really part of Central Florida, either - Central Florida is more like Orlando and its suburbs.

    The Tampa Bay Area is it's own thing, and it's definitely not in South Florida.

    Three things are working against the Rays:

    1) Rays play in St. Petersburg, not in Tampa. That means it's an extra half hour (with no traffic) or maybe an extra hour or more with traffic (especially on weeknights or weekends or during rush hour), for most fans to get to the stadium in St. Pete, as opposed to that much less travel time for the bulk of the TBA population, if the stadium were in downtown Tampa. The bulk of the Rays fanbase lives on the wrong side of the Howard Frankland Bridge. Most people outside the TBA can't be bothered to learn these basic geographical/transportation facts. Getting stuck for an hour in the middle of rush hour bridge traffic does a lot to discourage fans from making the trip across the bay (I mean, just look at the Howard Frankland Bridge on Google Maps - once you're stuck on that long, long bridge, there's no escaping it - you're stuck for a good long time).

    2) The bulk of the population currently living in the TBA are from somewhere else, with prior loyalties to MLB teams that have been around 100+ years longer than the Rays have been around. Having the Rays in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees means you are going to have a lot of home games where the visiting team has a lot more fans in attendance than Rays fans. Orioles and Blue Jays have a lot of fans in the TBA too. It's a horrible situation and difficult to create a multi-generational fanbase for the Rays.

    3) As to the genuine old stock - in the TBA - the Florida Crackers, Ybor City/West Tampa Cigar City Cuban, Spanish, Italian, German, Romanian, etc. descendants of cigar factory workers, or Greek sponge divers in Sarasota & Tarpon Springs, or even millions of pre-1990s northern transplants and their descendants who predate the Rays, often by two or three generations? Well a lot of them support northern MLB teams based on their Spring Training loyalties; MLB has been doing spring training in the TBA for well over a century. So odds are actual baseball fans in the TBA already had multi-generational MLB loyalties to other teams long before the Rays showed up, even if they had been living in the TBA for a few generations and weren't recent arrivals from the Northeast or Midwest.

    The fact that people think that the Rays play in Tampa, or that Tampa is in South Florida, goes a long way to explain why people don't know and don't care to know why the Rays can't draw fans. I mean, look at a damned map sometime. It will explain a lot about what is going on here.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  13. Texas has fewer transplants from Tampa Bay and Orlando

    In addition, the Rays have been around for less than 25 years and have been lousy for most of them. The most popular team in Tampa is the Yankees, not the Rays. Therefore, emigrants from that part of Florida aren’t going to maintain their loyalty to the Rays.

    Also, the Rays are one of only three MLB teams that doesn’t control its domain name, i.e. Rays.com has nothing to do with the baseball team.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @ScarletNumber

    Well the Yankees do have a stadium for their minor league team on Dale Mabry Highway located right across the street from Raymond James Stadium where the Bucs play football and of course, George Steinbrenner was a long time Tampa resident, and as you noted there are so many snowbirds from various other states in Florida. I lived in Tampa for a couple of decades and the only game in town was basically the Bucs. Rays drew very small crowds when I lived there except when the Yankees and Red Sox came to town, even then the crowds weren't exceptional. I don't know if Tampa/St. Pete celebrated that much when the Lightning won the Stanley Cup this year, but in 2004 when they won it all, the average person that I talked to down there could care less. I always thought Tampa would have been a good baseball town given the game is played pretty much all the time down there, MLB spring training being a fixture down in that area for so long in places like Winter Haven, Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, Lakeland, etc. Loved the area and it would be good to see Cigar City capture two "world titles" in one year, and I believe the Super Bowl comes to Tampa this time as well. Oh well, I won't be watching the NFL but congrats, Tampa Bay.

    Replies: @meh

  14. I always got the impression the Dodgers had a huge Mexican fan base to go along with their white yuppie/hipster fans–sort of the blue coalition against the Angels’ Disney-suburbs-Orange County red appealing squad.

    And Mexican fan bases cut across state lines, since they aren’t really rooting for an urban area but a fan base as La Raza. The LA-Oakland Raiders seemed to have a similar dynamic, with a lot of Hispanics in other parts of the country being Raiders fans not for the location but because it was _their_ team (don’t know if that will still translate to their current location in Vegas): gangster and rebellious. I wouldn’t be surprised, at least, if Hispano-chicano-latino et al. people in Texas choose the Dodgers over Rangers and Astros from the cultural association. After all, this was Fernando Valenzuela’s team.

    Florida? Well Tampa is rednecks and rich Jewish retirees–the former of which Texas has its own version, the latter of which probably isn’t Texas vibe. Regarding Latin Americans, Florida’s at most Cubano territory, and while Millennials and Gen Zers are maybe breaking the mold on old ethnic rivalries, those Cubans don’t generally play well with the other Spanish speakers in the Americas.

    Then again, this is all evidence-free speculation, or in other words, talking shit.

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    @John Milton's Ghost

    The Raiders are a blue collar team....

    The 49ers are the team of bandwagon jumping tech idiots.

    In high school Raiders fans bullied fake 49ers fans.....

    , @Trinity
    @John Milton's Ghost

    haha. I take it that you have NEVER been to Tampa. Sure, Tampa has its rednecks, and some Jews, but Tampa has its Blacks, its Haitians, its Puerto Ricans, its Cubans, hell they even have Orientals there as well. Hell, Tampa is just a small little metro of about "tree" million or so and then when you count the I-4 corridor, well, that has to add another 2-3 million, so we aren't exactly a hick town, but admittedly not a NYC or LA, hell not even an Atlanta for that matter. The largest demographic in central Florida and the Gulf Coast might be refugees from the Midwest and Northeast who couldn't take the heat they encouraged "up Nawth" in cities like Jew Yawk, Chimpcongo, Basston, etc. Speaking of "rednecks," Tampa is also home to a great deal of rednecks from Ohio, Indiana, etc. My gawd, those rednecks from Ohio and Indiana make even us JawJuh peaches look refined. And now after these fleeing Yankees ruined Florida, we have the new species known as the Halfbacks. The Halfbacks are going half way back up North by ruining the Carolinas and North Georgia now. My gawd, illegal aliens, Yankees, and California fruits, nuts and flakes are ruining America.

    , @PublicSphere
    @John Milton's Ghost

    Up in the Bay Area amongst Giants fans, the Dodger fanbase certainly has a reputation, of a kind:

    https://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/justice/california-dodgers-baseball-beating/index.html


    Marvin Norwood, 33, and Louie Sanchez, 31, were sentenced to four years and eight years, respectively. Members of victim Bryan Stow's family appeared in court and made statements to the defendants and the judge during the sentencing. Now brain-damaged as a result of the beating, Stow is disabled and unable to care for himself, said his father, David....

    Prosecutors say the men attacked Stow, now 45, in the Dodgers' stadium parking lot after the Opening Day game on March 31, 2011. The paramedic from Santa Cruz went into a coma as a result of the beating and, after returning to consciousness, is still struggling with a severe brain injury.
    The men, who appeared in court in handcuffs, were harshly criticized by Judge George Lomeli.
    "Mr. Stow will be forever trapped in the medical condition" that the men put him in, he said during the sentencing. "I have to comment on the attack, which was absolutely brutal. "You blindsided Mr. Stow," the judge said. "You are a complete coward." Sanchez smirked during the judge's admonishment. "You show no remorse whatsoever," Lomeli added. "At the end of the day, it was only a game. ... And you lost perspective." A statement from the district attorney's office said Sanchez attacked Stow from behind in "an unprovoked attack" and witnesses testified that Norwood prevented Stow's friends from helping him....
     
  15. @BenKenobi
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds3I11pXoAIE4ht.jpg

    Replies: @personfellowindividual

    The people who live here, pal. We don’t want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.

    • Agree: Jus' Sayin'...
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @personfellowindividual

    Too late, dude. Someone should have killed the cancer known as Austin before it metasticised.

    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @personfellowindividual


    My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas,
     

    Who cares?
     

    The people who live here, pal. We don’t want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.
     
    In New England, soon after their arrival in Vermont, New Hampshire and southern Maine, refugees from Massachusetts's tax and spend policies and restrictions on freedom started pushing and voting for exactly the same policies that led to their leaving Massachusetts. Within a few decades of their infestation, they've managed to destroy much of what drew them out of Massachusetts. It's almost as if they are infected with a virus.

    I understand that decades ago refugees from California began the same process in Oregon and Washington. I would not be surprised to learn that most of the rioters, looters, arsonists, and other thugs wreaking havoc in Portland and Seattle are either transplants from California or their children and grandchildren.

  16. @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    Not coincidentally, Texas and Florida are tipping Blue.

    Replies: @AnonAnon

    Not coincidentally, Texas and Florida are tipping Blue.

    Not in this election.

    • Agree: Hannah Katz
  17. @Nosferatu Zodd
    Dodgers fans probably outnumber Rays fans in Tampa Bay. The Rays have not been able to translate their wins into fans. Probably a combination of 1) South Florida naturally being a bad sports market and 2) their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @meh

    Yes, and a third reason is that Florida is a spring training site, so lots of locals pick some distant team that trains nearby to root for.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    Yes, and a third reason is that Florida is a spring training site, so lots of locals pick some distant team that trains nearby to root for.

     

    Until recently, the Kansas City Chiefs training camp was closer to the Twin Cities than the Vikings'.


    Chiefs still have fans in River Falls: City was home of summer training camp for 19 years
  18. @Travis
    My father grew up in Philadelphia, and he was a Dodger fan starting in the 50s, probably because he hated the Yankees and always rooted for the Dodgers to beat them in the World Series.
    As a boy in the 70s he would only take me to see the Phillies when the Dodgers were in town. It did not make me a Dodgers fan. It was tough seeing the Phillies lose to them in the 1977 and 1978 Playoffs.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Ben tillman

    Then the Phightins beat LA in 83, 08, 09.

  19. @Canadian Observer
    The Dodgers are probably #4 in international popularity for MLB apparel, after the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. They're kind of like the outdoors version of the L.A. Lakers. Dodgers Stadium is a sunny, breezy and pretentious as hell place to be. People show up three innings late and are too cool to stay until the end of the game.

    The L.A. Dodgers are the symbol of the West Coast. A transplanted and chilled out culture. I'm not a big baseball guy, but the only baseball hat I own is a Dodgers one.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned

    Aren’t they big with latinos too?

    Dallas has a lot of latino transplants. I used to stay briefly in South Dallas….its safer than New Orleans despite having a rough reputation….

  20. @John Milton's Ghost
    I always got the impression the Dodgers had a huge Mexican fan base to go along with their white yuppie/hipster fans--sort of the blue coalition against the Angels' Disney-suburbs-Orange County red appealing squad.

    And Mexican fan bases cut across state lines, since they aren't really rooting for an urban area but a fan base as La Raza. The LA-Oakland Raiders seemed to have a similar dynamic, with a lot of Hispanics in other parts of the country being Raiders fans not for the location but because it was _their_ team (don't know if that will still translate to their current location in Vegas): gangster and rebellious. I wouldn't be surprised, at least, if Hispano-chicano-latino et al. people in Texas choose the Dodgers over Rangers and Astros from the cultural association. After all, this was Fernando Valenzuela's team.

    Florida? Well Tampa is rednecks and rich Jewish retirees--the former of which Texas has its own version, the latter of which probably isn't Texas vibe. Regarding Latin Americans, Florida's at most Cubano territory, and while Millennials and Gen Zers are maybe breaking the mold on old ethnic rivalries, those Cubans don't generally play well with the other Spanish speakers in the Americas.

    Then again, this is all evidence-free speculation, or in other words, talking shit.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Trinity, @PublicSphere

    The Raiders are a blue collar team….

    The 49ers are the team of bandwagon jumping tech idiots.

    In high school Raiders fans bullied fake 49ers fans…..

  21. Dodgers have lots of Mexican fans and Texas is full of Mexicans too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Haole2

    Nonsense - I live in Houston and the hispanics (Mexican Americans + various others) are huge Astros fans. Its the only baseball jersey anyone in Houston wears.

    Replies: @Polichinello, @Known Fact

  22. I’m pretty sure the Dodgers are to Mexican-Americans what the Chicago Cubs are to Midwestern and beyond Heritage -Americans . It’s the team they root for by default.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    The L.A. Dodgers have had three ethnic heroes: Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Fernando Valenzuela. So the Dodgers probably have national followings among Jews and Mexicans.

    Most African-Americans have lost interest in baseball. Strikingly, the one team that blacks like is the New York Yankees, which didn't bring a black player, Elston Howard, to the majors until 8 years after Robinson joined the Dodgers.

    The Jewish angle is complicated because some old Jews will never forgive the Dodgers for moving from Brooklyn 62 years ago. Of course, lots of Brooklyn Jews themselves moved to Los Angeles, although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.'s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York (which tended to move from Florida).

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Bragadocious

  23. Something the NFL, NBA and MLB need to remember. Anyone can be a ‘fan’ of a team because there are no conditions for being one. Don’t have to live in Dallas to be a Cowboy’s ‘fan’ or have encyclopedic knowledge of players past and present. You just have to ‘like’ the Cowboys and if you do the Cowboys and other Cowboy fans will accept you.

    When sports teams put something other than the team logo on their jerseys or a political slogan on the playing field they are imposing a ‘condition’ on being a fan and rejecting people’s affection can have outsized consequences.

  24. Maybe they’re LAtina dodgers….

    • Agree: MBlanc46
  25. @anonymous
    I'm pretty sure the Dodgers are to Mexican-Americans what the Chicago Cubs are to Midwestern and beyond Heritage -Americans . It's the team they root for by default.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The L.A. Dodgers have had three ethnic heroes: Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Fernando Valenzuela. So the Dodgers probably have national followings among Jews and Mexicans.

    Most African-Americans have lost interest in baseball. Strikingly, the one team that blacks like is the New York Yankees, which didn’t bring a black player, Elston Howard, to the majors until 8 years after Robinson joined the Dodgers.

    The Jewish angle is complicated because some old Jews will never forgive the Dodgers for moving from Brooklyn 62 years ago. Of course, lots of Brooklyn Jews themselves moved to Los Angeles, although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.’s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York (which tended to move from Florida).

    • Thanks: Father Coughlin
    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Steve Sailer

    At Canter's Deli on Fairfax, indisputably the greatest Jewish deli in America and a national treasure, they still have something on the menu called the "Brooklyn Ave" -- a sandwich dedicated to the Jewish emigre community in East LA in the early twentieth century.

    Interesting things about Canter's:

    1. At one time the property had been a movie theater.

    2. Captain Beefheart used to drop acid and hang out there while he was tripping. If you eat breakfast there at 4 in the morning, you might actually be sitting in the same seat as the lunatic who wrote "Frownland"!

    3. The Kibbitz Room is (or was, the last time I checked) still one of the great late-night LA venues for raucous punk/funk/garage-rock craziness.

    4. They used to have the world's most polite homeless bums begging for change out front.

    5. But if you want the greatest cheeseburger in America, go hit Swinger's a few blocks down the street.

    , @Bragadocious
    @Steve Sailer


    although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.’s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York
     
    Like famous waiter and bad timing expert Ron Goldman
  26. @prosa123
    Dunno. It's been my impression that people fleeing California's taxes and high costs usually end up in other western states like Arizona, Colorado, Nevada and Utah.

    Replies: @Hannah Katz

    I wish you were right. However, Austin is full of Calis who moved to get away from the high taxes and cost of living, and immediately set about voting for obnoxious politicians who are trying their darndest to transform Austin and Texas into the same hell hole from where these people fled. The Latinos and dot Indians are trying the same thing. And they claim they are smarter than the locals….

    • Agree: Jus' Sayin'...
    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Hannah Katz

    "high taxes and cost of living" is the politically correct way of saying fleeing from the darkies to live among those "racist Texas rednecks" that those Commiefornia hipsters used to poke fun at and say how much they would hate to live in a place like Texas. heehee. Take care, Texas, we have already gone through what you are about to receive here in Dixieland. Get used to hearing, well this is how we did things in California.

    , @Ben tillman
    @Hannah Katz

    Not to mention it’s a state capital, meaning that it has thousands of warped Strzok and Page types.

  27. @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    The L.A. Dodgers have had three ethnic heroes: Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Fernando Valenzuela. So the Dodgers probably have national followings among Jews and Mexicans.

    Most African-Americans have lost interest in baseball. Strikingly, the one team that blacks like is the New York Yankees, which didn't bring a black player, Elston Howard, to the majors until 8 years after Robinson joined the Dodgers.

    The Jewish angle is complicated because some old Jews will never forgive the Dodgers for moving from Brooklyn 62 years ago. Of course, lots of Brooklyn Jews themselves moved to Los Angeles, although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.'s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York (which tended to move from Florida).

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Bragadocious

    At Canter’s Deli on Fairfax, indisputably the greatest Jewish deli in America and a national treasure, they still have something on the menu called the “Brooklyn Ave” — a sandwich dedicated to the Jewish emigre community in East LA in the early twentieth century.

    Interesting things about Canter’s:

    1. At one time the property had been a movie theater.

    2. Captain Beefheart used to drop acid and hang out there while he was tripping. If you eat breakfast there at 4 in the morning, you might actually be sitting in the same seat as the lunatic who wrote “Frownland”!

    3. The Kibbitz Room is (or was, the last time I checked) still one of the great late-night LA venues for raucous punk/funk/garage-rock craziness.

    4. They used to have the world’s most polite homeless bums begging for change out front.

    5. But if you want the greatest cheeseburger in America, go hit Swinger’s a few blocks down the street.

  28. @ScarletNumber

    Texas has fewer transplants from Tampa Bay and Orlando
     
    In addition, the Rays have been around for less than 25 years and have been lousy for most of them. The most popular team in Tampa is the Yankees, not the Rays. Therefore, emigrants from that part of Florida aren't going to maintain their loyalty to the Rays.

    Also, the Rays are one of only three MLB teams that doesn't control its domain name, i.e. Rays.com has nothing to do with the baseball team.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Well the Yankees do have a stadium for their minor league team on Dale Mabry Highway located right across the street from Raymond James Stadium where the Bucs play football and of course, George Steinbrenner was a long time Tampa resident, and as you noted there are so many snowbirds from various other states in Florida. I lived in Tampa for a couple of decades and the only game in town was basically the Bucs. Rays drew very small crowds when I lived there except when the Yankees and Red Sox came to town, even then the crowds weren’t exceptional. I don’t know if Tampa/St. Pete celebrated that much when the Lightning won the Stanley Cup this year, but in 2004 when they won it all, the average person that I talked to down there could care less. I always thought Tampa would have been a good baseball town given the game is played pretty much all the time down there, MLB spring training being a fixture down in that area for so long in places like Winter Haven, Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, Lakeland, etc. Loved the area and it would be good to see Cigar City capture two “world titles” in one year, and I believe the Super Bowl comes to Tampa this time as well. Oh well, I won’t be watching the NFL but congrats, Tampa Bay.

    • Replies: @meh
    @Trinity

    The Lightning drew well in their early years playing in the dome in St. Pete, before the Rays and before the Lightning moved over to Tampa. They draw well in Tampa as well.

    Besides the Rays, Lightning, and Bucs, the TBA also has a soccer team in the playoffs: the Tampa Bay Rowdies are playing Phoenix next Sunday in St. Pete for the USL Championship (basically the USA division two/minor league soccer championship). The Rowdies were the original pro team to represent the entire Bay Area, back in 1975, a year before the Bucs.

    Weird sports year for Tampa Bay.

  29. Clayton Kershaw is undoubtedly a part of it (he’s from Highland Park, a very wealthy independent municipality in the heart of Dallas).

    • Replies: @Zalintx
    @pirelli

    I agree. If it weren't for him I think a lot of folks in the area would have otherwise pulled for the Rays - if only to express their displeasure with another L.A. team threatening to win a title this year. The influence HP has on the culture of DFW is huge.

  30. @Reg Cæsar
    Why root for L.A. when Frisco has a team right next door?


    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0103/1825/0031/files/1_140x.png?v=1570628487

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @The Alarmist


    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

     

    Frisco has a much better logo.



    https://content.sportslogos.net/news/2015/02/Frisco-RoughRiders-New-Alt-Logo-2015.png


    https://content.sportslogos.net/news/2015/06/frisco_roughriders-jersey-2015.png

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    , @personfellowindividual
    @The Alarmist

    I miss having a team worth giving a shit about. It's been a long time. Not since the days Of Michael Young and Josh Hamilton.

  31. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    It has nothing to do with regionalism or ex-pats. The "Dodgers" are a legacy baseball name from back when America was still a country, and baseball was still a sport, not a bizarre monetized tattooed Hispanic video game. To people like me who loved baseball once but are now just too worn down and ashamed to pay attention anymore, Dodgers signifies something and Rays is gibberish.

    Who even knew that Florida had a team? Who knew that Tampa Bay is a place? And, the... "Rays"? Is their mascot a blind black piano player?

    Replies: @David In TN, @MBlanc46

    “The ‘Dodgers’ are a legacy baseball team from back when America was still a country,…”

    Yes, the Dodgers have been a “National Team” of sorts since the 50’s Brooklyn Dodgers. On the afternoon of July 31, 1965, we were standing outside Sportsman’s Park after buying tickets for the Cardinal-Dodger game (which I referred to in a previous thread) that night. We briefly talked to a Dodger fan who was from Los Angeles, don’t know if he was transplanted to St. Louis or traveling.

  32. @Nosferatu Zodd
    Dodgers fans probably outnumber Rays fans in Tampa Bay. The Rays have not been able to translate their wins into fans. Probably a combination of 1) South Florida naturally being a bad sports market and 2) their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @meh

    Not to mention that the Dodgers used to do their spring training just up the beach at Vero Beach.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @The Alarmist


    just up the beach at Vero Beach
     
    Vero Beach is on the Atlantic Ocean, while Tampa Bay is off the Gulf of Mexico

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  33. @John Milton's Ghost
    I always got the impression the Dodgers had a huge Mexican fan base to go along with their white yuppie/hipster fans--sort of the blue coalition against the Angels' Disney-suburbs-Orange County red appealing squad.

    And Mexican fan bases cut across state lines, since they aren't really rooting for an urban area but a fan base as La Raza. The LA-Oakland Raiders seemed to have a similar dynamic, with a lot of Hispanics in other parts of the country being Raiders fans not for the location but because it was _their_ team (don't know if that will still translate to their current location in Vegas): gangster and rebellious. I wouldn't be surprised, at least, if Hispano-chicano-latino et al. people in Texas choose the Dodgers over Rangers and Astros from the cultural association. After all, this was Fernando Valenzuela's team.

    Florida? Well Tampa is rednecks and rich Jewish retirees--the former of which Texas has its own version, the latter of which probably isn't Texas vibe. Regarding Latin Americans, Florida's at most Cubano territory, and while Millennials and Gen Zers are maybe breaking the mold on old ethnic rivalries, those Cubans don't generally play well with the other Spanish speakers in the Americas.

    Then again, this is all evidence-free speculation, or in other words, talking shit.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Trinity, @PublicSphere

    haha. I take it that you have NEVER been to Tampa. Sure, Tampa has its rednecks, and some Jews, but Tampa has its Blacks, its Haitians, its Puerto Ricans, its Cubans, hell they even have Orientals there as well. Hell, Tampa is just a small little metro of about “tree” million or so and then when you count the I-4 corridor, well, that has to add another 2-3 million, so we aren’t exactly a hick town, but admittedly not a NYC or LA, hell not even an Atlanta for that matter. The largest demographic in central Florida and the Gulf Coast might be refugees from the Midwest and Northeast who couldn’t take the heat they encouraged “up Nawth” in cities like Jew Yawk, Chimpcongo, Basston, etc. Speaking of “rednecks,” Tampa is also home to a great deal of rednecks from Ohio, Indiana, etc. My gawd, those rednecks from Ohio and Indiana make even us JawJuh peaches look refined. And now after these fleeing Yankees ruined Florida, we have the new species known as the Halfbacks. The Halfbacks are going half way back up North by ruining the Carolinas and North Georgia now. My gawd, illegal aliens, Yankees, and California fruits, nuts and flakes are ruining America.

  34. @personfellowindividual
    @BenKenobi

    The people who live here, pal. We don't want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jus' Sayin'...

    Too late, dude. Someone should have killed the cancer known as Austin before it metasticised.

    • Agree: Trinity
  35. The Rays not only lack a fan base, they have constantly lurched from one cheesy-looking cap and uni to another — you just can’t do that if you are going to establish your brand. The Dodgers and Lakers maintain a classic look. The Giants cap is my favorite and they don’t screw around with it aside from that occasional orange bill. The original six hockey teams also do not fool around much with their classic look.

    BTW Reds and Pirates caps seemed strangely popular when I worked in the Bronx, even though those two teams have been pretty inept — probably a gang thing rather than lots of fine young men of color moving in from the Rust Belt. (I always have to stifle the urge to ask one, “Hey, how about that Buccos game last night!”)

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Known Fact

    Best uniforms in baseball are the Orioles and Cardinals IMO. I think the "classic look" of the Dodgers and especially the Yankees is drab. Caps? Yep, I like the Dodgers and Yankees caps though, love the Tiger cap.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  36. @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    The L.A. Dodgers have had three ethnic heroes: Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Fernando Valenzuela. So the Dodgers probably have national followings among Jews and Mexicans.

    Most African-Americans have lost interest in baseball. Strikingly, the one team that blacks like is the New York Yankees, which didn't bring a black player, Elston Howard, to the majors until 8 years after Robinson joined the Dodgers.

    The Jewish angle is complicated because some old Jews will never forgive the Dodgers for moving from Brooklyn 62 years ago. Of course, lots of Brooklyn Jews themselves moved to Los Angeles, although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.'s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York (which tended to move from Florida).

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Bragadocious

    although my vague impression is that even more of L.A.’s Jewish community came from Chicago than from New York

    Like famous waiter and bad timing expert Ron Goldman

    • LOL: Father Coughlin
  37. I-Steve, my cousin and her husband were both born/raised in LA and lived in your neck of the woods (Sherman Oaks, near Moorpark St). They couldn’t take it any more so they upped and moved to a community outside of Dallas-Ft. Worth. For what they paid they got almost three times the amount of living space than they could have ever afforded in The Valley. Her youngest sister is about to move from Pt. Hueneme to the Texas Hill Country–and for the same reason.

  38. The Atlanta Braves briefly became “America’s Team” — or at least everybody’s second-favorite team despite being awful — when Ted Turner launched the national WTBS Superstation before ESPN began to catch on.

    TBS would also rerun the Braves game at 1 AM, though the trick was not hearing the score before then. A friend noted perceptively that watching the game like that — remember there were no VCRs or Tivo or anything like that at the time — must create “an eerie feeling of predestination.”

  39. @personfellowindividual
    @BenKenobi

    The people who live here, pal. We don't want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jus' Sayin'...

    My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas,

    Who cares?

    The people who live here, pal. We don’t want the fucking California disease to ruin our state too.

    In New England, soon after their arrival in Vermont, New Hampshire and southern Maine, refugees from Massachusetts’s tax and spend policies and restrictions on freedom started pushing and voting for exactly the same policies that led to their leaving Massachusetts. Within a few decades of their infestation, they’ve managed to destroy much of what drew them out of Massachusetts. It’s almost as if they are infected with a virus.

    I understand that decades ago refugees from California began the same process in Oregon and Washington. I would not be surprised to learn that most of the rioters, looters, arsonists, and other thugs wreaking havoc in Portland and Seattle are either transplants from California or their children and grandchildren.

  40. @Cato

    My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas
     
    A good hypothesis, and probably true. Texas, and much of the Southeast, is full of refugees from Southern California, most of whom came soon after the Rodney King riots. Sell your two-bedroomer in LA, and buy a mansion in Houston. Of course, the climate in Texas sucks, except in the winter, but with air conditioning and a big house, it is bearable.

    Replies: @PublicSphere, @Ben tillman

    There is a ton of press coverage of Legacy-Americans moving from CA to TX for political / tax / family formation reasons. GOP pols like former CA assemblyman Chuck DeVore (Irvine), and former CA congressional candidate Paul Chabot (Rancho Cucamonga) have moved to TX and made high-profile efforts to bring CA right-wingers with them.

    However, motivated conservatives are probably far outnumbered by the “educated suburbanite” white-collar workers who simply follow their corporate jobs. Many companies have moved HQs from CA to TX (Toyota, McKesson, Charles Schwab, Jacobs Engineering) and bring their “blue” voters with them.

    Overall, the Dems seem quite optimistic that the “NeverTrump” suburban wine mom vote will eventually help flip the state. The governor was moved to warn the new arrivals against bringing their “high taxes, burdensome regulations, & socialistic agenda” along for the ride:

    https://www.dallasnews.com/business/2019/04/04/the-west-coast-just-might-be-california-ing-your-north-texas-according-to-a-new-study/

    More Californians move to Dallas-Fort Worth each year than residents of any other state, according to a new NerdWallet analysis of U.S. domestic migration.

    In fact, 8,300 Californians on average packed their bags and moved to the D-FW region each year from 2012 to 2016.

    • Replies: @3g4me
    @PublicSphere

    Wheelchair gov is an ass.

  41. @John Milton's Ghost
    I always got the impression the Dodgers had a huge Mexican fan base to go along with their white yuppie/hipster fans--sort of the blue coalition against the Angels' Disney-suburbs-Orange County red appealing squad.

    And Mexican fan bases cut across state lines, since they aren't really rooting for an urban area but a fan base as La Raza. The LA-Oakland Raiders seemed to have a similar dynamic, with a lot of Hispanics in other parts of the country being Raiders fans not for the location but because it was _their_ team (don't know if that will still translate to their current location in Vegas): gangster and rebellious. I wouldn't be surprised, at least, if Hispano-chicano-latino et al. people in Texas choose the Dodgers over Rangers and Astros from the cultural association. After all, this was Fernando Valenzuela's team.

    Florida? Well Tampa is rednecks and rich Jewish retirees--the former of which Texas has its own version, the latter of which probably isn't Texas vibe. Regarding Latin Americans, Florida's at most Cubano territory, and while Millennials and Gen Zers are maybe breaking the mold on old ethnic rivalries, those Cubans don't generally play well with the other Spanish speakers in the Americas.

    Then again, this is all evidence-free speculation, or in other words, talking shit.

    Replies: @Neoconned, @Trinity, @PublicSphere

    Up in the Bay Area amongst Giants fans, the Dodger fanbase certainly has a reputation, of a kind:

    https://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/justice/california-dodgers-baseball-beating/index.html

    Marvin Norwood, 33, and Louie Sanchez, 31, were sentenced to four years and eight years, respectively. Members of victim Bryan Stow’s family appeared in court and made statements to the defendants and the judge during the sentencing. Now brain-damaged as a result of the beating, Stow is disabled and unable to care for himself, said his father, David….

    Prosecutors say the men attacked Stow, now 45, in the Dodgers’ stadium parking lot after the Opening Day game on March 31, 2011. The paramedic from Santa Cruz went into a coma as a result of the beating and, after returning to consciousness, is still struggling with a severe brain injury.
    The men, who appeared in court in handcuffs, were harshly criticized by Judge George Lomeli.
    “Mr. Stow will be forever trapped in the medical condition” that the men put him in, he said during the sentencing. “I have to comment on the attack, which was absolutely brutal. “You blindsided Mr. Stow,” the judge said. “You are a complete coward.” Sanchez smirked during the judge’s admonishment. “You show no remorse whatsoever,” Lomeli added. “At the end of the day, it was only a game. … And you lost perspective.” A statement from the district attorney’s office said Sanchez attacked Stow from behind in “an unprovoked attack” and witnesses testified that Norwood prevented Stow’s friends from helping him….

  42. @Haole2
    Dodgers have lots of Mexican fans and Texas is full of Mexicans too.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Nonsense – I live in Houston and the hispanics (Mexican Americans + various others) are huge Astros fans. Its the only baseball jersey anyone in Houston wears.

    • Replies: @Polichinello
    @Anonymous

    This is true, in Houston. Outside of Houston and Texas, though, Mexicans love "los Doyers".

    , @Known Fact
    @Anonymous

    I'd think that little 2nd baseman Altuve -- charismatic overachiever as well as a great overall player -- would be immensely Valenzuela-level popular with Hispanics. He's Venezuelan but I don't see that being a turn-off for Mexicans or other nationalities

  43. @Hannah Katz
    @prosa123

    I wish you were right. However, Austin is full of Calis who moved to get away from the high taxes and cost of living, and immediately set about voting for obnoxious politicians who are trying their darndest to transform Austin and Texas into the same hell hole from where these people fled. The Latinos and dot Indians are trying the same thing. And they claim they are smarter than the locals....

    Replies: @Trinity, @Ben tillman

    “high taxes and cost of living” is the politically correct way of saying fleeing from the darkies to live among those “racist Texas rednecks” that those Commiefornia hipsters used to poke fun at and say how much they would hate to live in a place like Texas. heehee. Take care, Texas, we have already gone through what you are about to receive here in Dixieland. Get used to hearing, well this is how we did things in California.

  44. @Known Fact
    The Rays not only lack a fan base, they have constantly lurched from one cheesy-looking cap and uni to another -- you just can't do that if you are going to establish your brand. The Dodgers and Lakers maintain a classic look. The Giants cap is my favorite and they don't screw around with it aside from that occasional orange bill. The original six hockey teams also do not fool around much with their classic look.

    BTW Reds and Pirates caps seemed strangely popular when I worked in the Bronx, even though those two teams have been pretty inept -- probably a gang thing rather than lots of fine young men of color moving in from the Rust Belt. (I always have to stifle the urge to ask one, "Hey, how about that Buccos game last night!")

    Replies: @Trinity

    Best uniforms in baseball are the Orioles and Cardinals IMO. I think the “classic look” of the Dodgers and especially the Yankees is drab. Caps? Yep, I like the Dodgers and Yankees caps though, love the Tiger cap.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Trinity

    Agree, Cardinal logo across the chest is the best in baseball, so intricate, although I don't care for red uniforms in general. Orioles uniform also attractive and fun (especially the caps with the cartoon bird, not the little stick-figure thing). Still think the Dodgers have a classic beauty while the Yanks and Tigs are bland but at least have gravitas. Pirates have some nice ones but can't seem to settle on a look -- they need to just go back to 1960.

  45. @Anonymous
    @Haole2

    Nonsense - I live in Houston and the hispanics (Mexican Americans + various others) are huge Astros fans. Its the only baseball jersey anyone in Houston wears.

    Replies: @Polichinello, @Known Fact

    This is true, in Houston. Outside of Houston and Texas, though, Mexicans love “los Doyers”.

  46. Chuck Devore says the opposite. He was a politician in California that moved to Texas to work for Rick Perry. In his research its more conservative folks from Orange County or Riverside that moved to Texas. The biggest group moving to the left in Texas are young people whether they are Latino or white. In fact white Austin had the most George Floyd protest in Texas.

  47. The Rays are, for all purposes, only about 15 years old as a franchise. I grew up in Tampa in the 90s and more of my classmates were Yankees fans than Rays fans, because the Rays were a historically awful franchise until Joe Maddon came along in ’06. Despite having some good teams since then, the franchise has still had a hard time growing its fan base because they stupidly put the stadium in St. Pete, a city full of retirees, gays, and artsy types, and it’s extremely time-consuming for people from Tampa to reach during rush hour. Other difficulties:

    1. Like most of Central and South Florida, Tampa is full of 1st and 2nd generation transplants from up north, who tend to raise their kids to have the same sports loyalties.

    2. The Rays have such a low payroll that the roster is constantly turning over. It’s easier to build fans when you have a star player sticking around for a decade, but with the sole exception of Evan Longoria, the Rays haven’t pulled that off.

    3. During the end of the season and postseason, the Rays have to compete with another major sports team for attention (Bucs), as well as with the Gators, Seminoles, and other college football teams. (In football-crazed states, MLB would benefit by having the playoffs starting around the same time as the football season).

    None of these difficulties on their own are insurmountable, but as a whole, they’ve suppressed the growth of the fan base. It’s a shame, because the Rays are a very well-run franchise and quite remarkable for frequently outperforming the huge corporate machines in Boston and the Bronx.

    • Thanks: Father Coughlin
  48. People from SoCal moving to Texas are probably more likely to be conservative. California turned liberal because of anchor babies and NoCal liberals. Your average legacy Orange County person would never vote for Ann Richard’s for governor.

  49. Dodgers have a lot of White guys. Period.

  50. @Anonymous
    @Haole2

    Nonsense - I live in Houston and the hispanics (Mexican Americans + various others) are huge Astros fans. Its the only baseball jersey anyone in Houston wears.

    Replies: @Polichinello, @Known Fact

    I’d think that little 2nd baseman Altuve — charismatic overachiever as well as a great overall player — would be immensely Valenzuela-level popular with Hispanics. He’s Venezuelan but I don’t see that being a turn-off for Mexicans or other nationalities

  51. I don’t know, I see a lot of dodgers hats all around the country. They have a cool uniform and logo. I’ve lived in a few different states and know a few dodgers fans. I’ve never known a Rays fan. I’m a Phillies fan, and they have spring training in St. Pete, and apparently there are a lot of Phillies fans there for this reason. The rays didn’t come into being until 1998. The rays did an excellent job of rebranding themselves in 2008, they dropped the devil rays name and changed to it just rays. They actually have two mascots, because rays can be interpreted as meaning manta rays, or rays of sunlight. They have logos for both. Ironically they play inside a dome.
    Manta ray logo…Sunburst logo…

  52. DFW always struck me visually as LA without the beach and mountains. Geographically large, dusty, big ol screaming highways, fancy shopping, haphazard zoning and power lines draped over everything.

    But the people are a lot different. I won’t say nicer, because LA people are really pretty nice especially compared to godawful Easterners. LA and DFW people are of similar niceness. But in DFW you can hardly tell whether a guy is white, black or Latino from his accent.

    People might say, “But DFW is southern, nothing like the West Coast.” I found LA southern in a lot of ways. It has more in common with Dallas than with San Francisco.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    I think the main train route to L.A. came through Baton Rouge or thereabouts. That explains a lot about why USC was such a football power a half century ago: lots of whites and blacks in L.A. with roots in football crazy East Texas and Louisiana.

  53. @Cato

    My guess is that instead the Dallas Metroplex is full of tax and cost-of-living exiles from Southern California who like greater affordability of Texas
     
    A good hypothesis, and probably true. Texas, and much of the Southeast, is full of refugees from Southern California, most of whom came soon after the Rodney King riots. Sell your two-bedroomer in LA, and buy a mansion in Houston. Of course, the climate in Texas sucks, except in the winter, but with air conditioning and a big house, it is bearable.

    Replies: @PublicSphere, @Ben tillman

    No, the rate of immigration to Texas from California now is ten times greater than it was “soon after the Rodney King riots”. You’re also wrong about the climate.

    • Replies: @Cato
    @Ben tillman


    No, the rate of immigration to Texas from California now is ten times greater than it was “soon after the Rodney King riots”.
     
    OK. My evidence was purely anecdotal -- a big influx that everyone noticed and talked about. Please point me to the stats so that I can take a look.

    You’re also wrong about the climate.
     
    That the Texas climate is NOT bearable? Or that it doesn't suck?
  54. @Travis
    My father grew up in Philadelphia, and he was a Dodger fan starting in the 50s, probably because he hated the Yankees and always rooted for the Dodgers to beat them in the World Series.
    As a boy in the 70s he would only take me to see the Phillies when the Dodgers were in town. It did not make me a Dodgers fan. It was tough seeing the Phillies lose to them in the 1977 and 1978 Playoffs.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Ben tillman

    Ain’t that the truth. 1980 was glorious, though.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Ben tillman

    Indeed. The NLCS against Houston in 80 was insane for drama. 1993 was wild, too.

  55. @Hannah Katz
    @prosa123

    I wish you were right. However, Austin is full of Calis who moved to get away from the high taxes and cost of living, and immediately set about voting for obnoxious politicians who are trying their darndest to transform Austin and Texas into the same hell hole from where these people fled. The Latinos and dot Indians are trying the same thing. And they claim they are smarter than the locals....

    Replies: @Trinity, @Ben tillman

    Not to mention it’s a state capital, meaning that it has thousands of warped Strzok and Page types.

  56. @The Alarmist
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    Not to mention that the Dodgers used to do their spring training just up the beach at Vero Beach.

    https://activerain-store.s3.amazonaws.com/image_store/uploads/4/3/8/7/4/ar120507298847834.jpg

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    just up the beach at Vero Beach

    Vero Beach is on the Atlantic Ocean, while Tampa Bay is off the Gulf of Mexico

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @ScarletNumber

    I meant up the beach from South Florida, i.e. Miami, Ft. L, Ft. P., etc.

  57. @The Alarmist
    @Reg Cæsar

    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

    https://baseballbrains.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/texas_rangers.jpg

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @personfellowindividual

    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

    Frisco has a much better logo.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Reg Cæsar

    Tru Dat ... surprised they still have it ;)

  58. @Trinity
    @Known Fact

    Best uniforms in baseball are the Orioles and Cardinals IMO. I think the "classic look" of the Dodgers and especially the Yankees is drab. Caps? Yep, I like the Dodgers and Yankees caps though, love the Tiger cap.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Agree, Cardinal logo across the chest is the best in baseball, so intricate, although I don’t care for red uniforms in general. Orioles uniform also attractive and fun (especially the caps with the cartoon bird, not the little stick-figure thing). Still think the Dodgers have a classic beauty while the Yanks and Tigs are bland but at least have gravitas. Pirates have some nice ones but can’t seem to settle on a look — they need to just go back to 1960.

  59. @Steve Sailer
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    Yes, and a third reason is that Florida is a spring training site, so lots of locals pick some distant team that trains nearby to root for.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, and a third reason is that Florida is a spring training site, so lots of locals pick some distant team that trains nearby to root for.

    Until recently, the Kansas City Chiefs training camp was closer to the Twin Cities than the Vikings’.

    Chiefs still have fans in River Falls: City was home of summer training camp for 19 years

  60. @PublicSphere
    @Cato

    There is a ton of press coverage of Legacy-Americans moving from CA to TX for political / tax / family formation reasons. GOP pols like former CA assemblyman Chuck DeVore (Irvine), and former CA congressional candidate Paul Chabot (Rancho Cucamonga) have moved to TX and made high-profile efforts to bring CA right-wingers with them.

    However, motivated conservatives are probably far outnumbered by the "educated suburbanite" white-collar workers who simply follow their corporate jobs. Many companies have moved HQs from CA to TX (Toyota, McKesson, Charles Schwab, Jacobs Engineering) and bring their "blue" voters with them.

    Overall, the Dems seem quite optimistic that the "NeverTrump" suburban wine mom vote will eventually help flip the state. The governor was moved to warn the new arrivals against bringing their "high taxes, burdensome regulations, & socialistic agenda" along for the ride:

    https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1220462311506415617?lang=en



    https://www.dallasnews.com/business/2019/04/04/the-west-coast-just-might-be-california-ing-your-north-texas-according-to-a-new-study/


    More Californians move to Dallas-Fort Worth each year than residents of any other state, according to a new NerdWallet analysis of U.S. domestic migration.

    In fact, 8,300 Californians on average packed their bags and moved to the D-FW region each year from 2012 to 2016.
     

    Replies: @3g4me

    Wheelchair gov is an ass.

  61. @Nosferatu Zodd
    Dodgers fans probably outnumber Rays fans in Tampa Bay. The Rays have not been able to translate their wins into fans. Probably a combination of 1) South Florida naturally being a bad sports market and 2) their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @meh

    …their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    Or Jean Drapeau on a spending spree.

    Olympic Stadium, Montreal: that pit of despair we all know and love.

    (How many people can guess Drapeau’s party off the top of their têtes?)

  62. @Faraday's Bobcat
    DFW always struck me visually as LA without the beach and mountains. Geographically large, dusty, big ol screaming highways, fancy shopping, haphazard zoning and power lines draped over everything.

    But the people are a lot different. I won't say nicer, because LA people are really pretty nice especially compared to godawful Easterners. LA and DFW people are of similar niceness. But in DFW you can hardly tell whether a guy is white, black or Latino from his accent.

    People might say, "But DFW is southern, nothing like the West Coast." I found LA southern in a lot of ways. It has more in common with Dallas than with San Francisco.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I think the main train route to L.A. came through Baton Rouge or thereabouts. That explains a lot about why USC was such a football power a half century ago: lots of whites and blacks in L.A. with roots in football crazy East Texas and Louisiana.

  63. @Ben tillman
    @Cato

    No, the rate of immigration to Texas from California now is ten times greater than it was “soon after the Rodney King riots”. You’re also wrong about the climate.

    Replies: @Cato

    No, the rate of immigration to Texas from California now is ten times greater than it was “soon after the Rodney King riots”.

    OK. My evidence was purely anecdotal — a big influx that everyone noticed and talked about. Please point me to the stats so that I can take a look.

    You’re also wrong about the climate.

    That the Texas climate is NOT bearable? Or that it doesn’t suck?

  64. @The Alarmist
    @Reg Cæsar

    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

    https://baseballbrains.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/texas_rangers.jpg

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @personfellowindividual

    I miss having a team worth giving a shit about. It’s been a long time. Not since the days Of Michael Young and Josh Hamilton.

  65. Because of COVID-19 pandemic precautions, only about 11,000 fans are able to attend each World Series game. In fact, the pandemic is the reason why the league is playing the World Series at the brand new, $1.2 billion stadium.

    How pathetic. Kneeling, fealty to BLM, now fealty to pandemic hysteria.

    Professional sports is just a complete joke. Can’t die soon enough.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    @AnotherDad

    It’s dead to me.

  66. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    It has nothing to do with regionalism or ex-pats. The "Dodgers" are a legacy baseball name from back when America was still a country, and baseball was still a sport, not a bizarre monetized tattooed Hispanic video game. To people like me who loved baseball once but are now just too worn down and ashamed to pay attention anymore, Dodgers signifies something and Rays is gibberish.

    Who even knew that Florida had a team? Who knew that Tampa Bay is a place? And, the... "Rays"? Is their mascot a blind black piano player?

    Replies: @David In TN, @MBlanc46

    “Blind black piano player”. Naughty.

  67. @AnotherDad

    Because of COVID-19 pandemic precautions, only about 11,000 fans are able to attend each World Series game. In fact, the pandemic is the reason why the league is playing the World Series at the brand new, $1.2 billion stadium.
     
    How pathetic. Kneeling, fealty to BLM, now fealty to pandemic hysteria.

    Professional sports is just a complete joke. Can't die soon enough.

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    It’s dead to me.

  68. @ScarletNumber
    @The Alarmist


    just up the beach at Vero Beach
     
    Vero Beach is on the Atlantic Ocean, while Tampa Bay is off the Gulf of Mexico

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    I meant up the beach from South Florida, i.e. Miami, Ft. L, Ft. P., etc.

  69. @Reg Cæsar
    @The Alarmist


    Did you forget that team in Arlington, or do they not really count as baseball?

     

    Frisco has a much better logo.



    https://content.sportslogos.net/news/2015/02/Frisco-RoughRiders-New-Alt-Logo-2015.png


    https://content.sportslogos.net/news/2015/06/frisco_roughriders-jersey-2015.png

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    Tru Dat … surprised they still have it 😉

  70. @Steve Sailer
    @Canadian Observer

    "too cool to stay until the end of the game"

    One reason many Dodger fans leave early is because it's more of a family outing, so heading home after 7 innings so the kids can get up for school is a thing. When I moved to Chicago in 1982, I noticed that, in contrast, Cubs games at Wrigley Field were a grown-up thing and nobody left early because they only played day games then and everybody was drunk.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @DCThrowback

    Yes and Chicago Cubs games are a major singles pick-up scene.

  71. It’s the Mexicans.
    Dallas is 30-40% Hispanic. Similar demo in many surrounding cities in the metroplex.
    The Mexicans love the Vaqueros and the Dotchers and the schwag that goes with it.

  72. @Steve Sailer
    @Canadian Observer

    "too cool to stay until the end of the game"

    One reason many Dodger fans leave early is because it's more of a family outing, so heading home after 7 innings so the kids can get up for school is a thing. When I moved to Chicago in 1982, I noticed that, in contrast, Cubs games at Wrigley Field were a grown-up thing and nobody left early because they only played day games then and everybody was drunk.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @DCThrowback

    /cue hilarious lee elia rant

  73. @Ben tillman
    @Travis

    Ain’t that the truth. 1980 was glorious, though.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    Indeed. The NLCS against Houston in 80 was insane for drama. 1993 was wild, too.

  74. Actually Steve Sailer is at least partially right. I live in one of the Dallas suburbs and was at a coffee shop before covid hit. Waiting on a friend who lives in this suburb, and who hails from Southern California. Before she arrived I overheard a sales recruiter at a nearby table say she was from California. It turns out the woman she was interviewing was also from California too! And to top it off – the young employee behind the counter quickly added, ‘I’m from California too.’ My estimate – and I used to do demographic research – about 1,000,000 Californians have moved to Texas in the past 25 years, maybe more. Plus you have all their offspring. I always see a lot of Lakers jerseys around town and LA Dodgers caps – and a good number of SF caps, for the Giants.

    • Replies: @Marty
    @DallasAl10

    There’s at least one A’s fan in McKinney. But he’s been there 30 years.

  75. @DallasAl10
    Actually Steve Sailer is at least partially right. I live in one of the Dallas suburbs and was at a coffee shop before covid hit. Waiting on a friend who lives in this suburb, and who hails from Southern California. Before she arrived I overheard a sales recruiter at a nearby table say she was from California. It turns out the woman she was interviewing was also from California too! And to top it off - the young employee behind the counter quickly added, 'I'm from California too.' My estimate - and I used to do demographic research - about 1,000,000 Californians have moved to Texas in the past 25 years, maybe more. Plus you have all their offspring. I always see a lot of Lakers jerseys around town and LA Dodgers caps - and a good number of SF caps, for the Giants.

    Replies: @Marty

    There’s at least one A’s fan in McKinney. But he’s been there 30 years.

  76. @Nosferatu Zodd
    Dodgers fans probably outnumber Rays fans in Tampa Bay. The Rays have not been able to translate their wins into fans. Probably a combination of 1) South Florida naturally being a bad sports market and 2) their stadium looking like something Brezhnev built on the cheap.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @meh

    In spite of being the home of the University of South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area is not in South Florida. You’re thinking of Miami.

    In spite of what some might think, the Tampa Bay Area is not really part of Central Florida, either – Central Florida is more like Orlando and its suburbs.

    The Tampa Bay Area is it’s own thing, and it’s definitely not in South Florida.

    Three things are working against the Rays:

    1) Rays play in St. Petersburg, not in Tampa. That means it’s an extra half hour (with no traffic) or maybe an extra hour or more with traffic (especially on weeknights or weekends or during rush hour), for most fans to get to the stadium in St. Pete, as opposed to that much less travel time for the bulk of the TBA population, if the stadium were in downtown Tampa. The bulk of the Rays fanbase lives on the wrong side of the Howard Frankland Bridge. Most people outside the TBA can’t be bothered to learn these basic geographical/transportation facts. Getting stuck for an hour in the middle of rush hour bridge traffic does a lot to discourage fans from making the trip across the bay (I mean, just look at the Howard Frankland Bridge on Google Maps – once you’re stuck on that long, long bridge, there’s no escaping it – you’re stuck for a good long time).

    2) The bulk of the population currently living in the TBA are from somewhere else, with prior loyalties to MLB teams that have been around 100+ years longer than the Rays have been around. Having the Rays in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees means you are going to have a lot of home games where the visiting team has a lot more fans in attendance than Rays fans. Orioles and Blue Jays have a lot of fans in the TBA too. It’s a horrible situation and difficult to create a multi-generational fanbase for the Rays.

    3) As to the genuine old stock – in the TBA – the Florida Crackers, Ybor City/West Tampa Cigar City Cuban, Spanish, Italian, German, Romanian, etc. descendants of cigar factory workers, or Greek sponge divers in Sarasota & Tarpon Springs, or even millions of pre-1990s northern transplants and their descendants who predate the Rays, often by two or three generations? Well a lot of them support northern MLB teams based on their Spring Training loyalties; MLB has been doing spring training in the TBA for well over a century. So odds are actual baseball fans in the TBA already had multi-generational MLB loyalties to other teams long before the Rays showed up, even if they had been living in the TBA for a few generations and weren’t recent arrivals from the Northeast or Midwest.

    The fact that people think that the Rays play in Tampa, or that Tampa is in South Florida, goes a long way to explain why people don’t know and don’t care to know why the Rays can’t draw fans. I mean, look at a damned map sometime. It will explain a lot about what is going on here.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @meh

    Tampa Bay has a better geography for an 8 home game per year NFL team than an 81 home game per year MLB team. Baseball teams need some fans who go to a lot of games, so driving time to the stadium matters.

    That's a big bay right in the center of the Tampa Bay metro area. It would be like expecting to draw season ticket holders from Palo Alto to Oakland A's games.

  77. @Trinity
    @ScarletNumber

    Well the Yankees do have a stadium for their minor league team on Dale Mabry Highway located right across the street from Raymond James Stadium where the Bucs play football and of course, George Steinbrenner was a long time Tampa resident, and as you noted there are so many snowbirds from various other states in Florida. I lived in Tampa for a couple of decades and the only game in town was basically the Bucs. Rays drew very small crowds when I lived there except when the Yankees and Red Sox came to town, even then the crowds weren't exceptional. I don't know if Tampa/St. Pete celebrated that much when the Lightning won the Stanley Cup this year, but in 2004 when they won it all, the average person that I talked to down there could care less. I always thought Tampa would have been a good baseball town given the game is played pretty much all the time down there, MLB spring training being a fixture down in that area for so long in places like Winter Haven, Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, Lakeland, etc. Loved the area and it would be good to see Cigar City capture two "world titles" in one year, and I believe the Super Bowl comes to Tampa this time as well. Oh well, I won't be watching the NFL but congrats, Tampa Bay.

    Replies: @meh

    The Lightning drew well in their early years playing in the dome in St. Pete, before the Rays and before the Lightning moved over to Tampa. They draw well in Tampa as well.

    Besides the Rays, Lightning, and Bucs, the TBA also has a soccer team in the playoffs: the Tampa Bay Rowdies are playing Phoenix next Sunday in St. Pete for the USL Championship (basically the USA division two/minor league soccer championship). The Rowdies were the original pro team to represent the entire Bay Area, back in 1975, a year before the Bucs.

    Weird sports year for Tampa Bay.

  78. @meh
    @Nosferatu Zodd

    In spite of being the home of the University of South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area is not in South Florida. You're thinking of Miami.

    In spite of what some might think, the Tampa Bay Area is not really part of Central Florida, either - Central Florida is more like Orlando and its suburbs.

    The Tampa Bay Area is it's own thing, and it's definitely not in South Florida.

    Three things are working against the Rays:

    1) Rays play in St. Petersburg, not in Tampa. That means it's an extra half hour (with no traffic) or maybe an extra hour or more with traffic (especially on weeknights or weekends or during rush hour), for most fans to get to the stadium in St. Pete, as opposed to that much less travel time for the bulk of the TBA population, if the stadium were in downtown Tampa. The bulk of the Rays fanbase lives on the wrong side of the Howard Frankland Bridge. Most people outside the TBA can't be bothered to learn these basic geographical/transportation facts. Getting stuck for an hour in the middle of rush hour bridge traffic does a lot to discourage fans from making the trip across the bay (I mean, just look at the Howard Frankland Bridge on Google Maps - once you're stuck on that long, long bridge, there's no escaping it - you're stuck for a good long time).

    2) The bulk of the population currently living in the TBA are from somewhere else, with prior loyalties to MLB teams that have been around 100+ years longer than the Rays have been around. Having the Rays in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees means you are going to have a lot of home games where the visiting team has a lot more fans in attendance than Rays fans. Orioles and Blue Jays have a lot of fans in the TBA too. It's a horrible situation and difficult to create a multi-generational fanbase for the Rays.

    3) As to the genuine old stock - in the TBA - the Florida Crackers, Ybor City/West Tampa Cigar City Cuban, Spanish, Italian, German, Romanian, etc. descendants of cigar factory workers, or Greek sponge divers in Sarasota & Tarpon Springs, or even millions of pre-1990s northern transplants and their descendants who predate the Rays, often by two or three generations? Well a lot of them support northern MLB teams based on their Spring Training loyalties; MLB has been doing spring training in the TBA for well over a century. So odds are actual baseball fans in the TBA already had multi-generational MLB loyalties to other teams long before the Rays showed up, even if they had been living in the TBA for a few generations and weren't recent arrivals from the Northeast or Midwest.

    The fact that people think that the Rays play in Tampa, or that Tampa is in South Florida, goes a long way to explain why people don't know and don't care to know why the Rays can't draw fans. I mean, look at a damned map sometime. It will explain a lot about what is going on here.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Tampa Bay has a better geography for an 8 home game per year NFL team than an 81 home game per year MLB team. Baseball teams need some fans who go to a lot of games, so driving time to the stadium matters.

    That’s a big bay right in the center of the Tampa Bay metro area. It would be like expecting to draw season ticket holders from Palo Alto to Oakland A’s games.

  79. @pirelli
    Clayton Kershaw is undoubtedly a part of it (he’s from Highland Park, a very wealthy independent municipality in the heart of Dallas).

    Replies: @Zalintx

    I agree. If it weren’t for him I think a lot of folks in the area would have otherwise pulled for the Rays – if only to express their displeasure with another L.A. team threatening to win a title this year. The influence HP has on the culture of DFW is huge.

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