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Star basketball players, with the exception of some sharpshooters like J.J. Reddick, tend to have extremely long arms, even relative to their famously tall heights. Long limbs are good for dissipating heat in the tropics.

But why don’t Polynesians, such as Samoans, who are vastly overrepresent in American football, have long arms?

Does it help to paddle a canoe to have long or short arms? My guess is that Polynesians have gone through a number of genetic bottlenecks in which their ancestors were strong enough to paddle hard enough to complete some staggeringly long sea voyage.

Here’s an interesting Twitter thread on this topic:

Read the whole thing there.

The author goes on to suggest an example of parallel evolution for short-armed strength on the other side of the world.

 
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  1. Something I read a while ago, unfortunately I don’t remember the source, is that the Polynesian body type is ideal for retaining body heat in the water. Polynesians traditionally spent a great deal of time in the water while fishing, and the ocean in that part of the world can be colder than one would expect at certain times of the year. Long limbs would increase the loss of body heat.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Whatever. Who's ever heard of a fat baskeyball player? I searched this whole page for instances of the word fat. Wtaf.
    , @DRA
    It strikes me that many sea mammals have a good layer of blubber as well.
  2. So low armspan ratio is an adaption to cold, yet Coon’s list of armspan in Europe shows the opposite: https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1264789135656697861/photo/1

    Northern Europeans have the highest ratios and southern Europeans the lowest.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    A lot of Southern Europeans have ancestors who invaded from Northern Europe.
    , @anon
    Southern Europeans spent a lot of time in mountains due to raids from north, all peninsulas are actually quite mountainous, while northerners lived near coast, plus probably more neanderthal ancestry among Southern Europeans.
    , @Pestartzt
    Europeans wear clothes.
  3. The Montenegrin reference in the pre-1939 wingspan comment perhaps explains Nero Wolfe’s successful career in American football before he picked up his magnifying glass, sank into the specially-commissioned chair and opened the first bottle of beer.

  4. Goov says:

    Because, if you remember well the flood of genetic papers from the last 5 years, the Mongoloid element of Southeast Asia came from the north, genociding and mixing to some extent the native Negrito types of those lands.
    And since when tropical forests are hot? Have you ever been to one? They do wonders to damp and cool the air.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6397/88

    You HBD people read and read, read too much, but learn too little.

  5. What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    • Replies: @Bernard

    What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.
     
    I’m one.
    , @Anonymous

    if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.
     
    Order from Eddie Bauer, son.

    https://www.eddiebauer.com/c/20001/men?cm_re=homepage_1_OB_S_mmemorialday_200513
    , @denjae
    Landsend.com
  6. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:

    Perhaps this is true of Polynesians but I don’t think his point about Icelanders doesn’t seem correct. It is ironic to bring up Hafthor, who looks kind of like a 2x larger LeBron James and played pro basketball before his strongman career. His unusually long limbs are a major asset to him picking up bulky objects and in throwing events. Most other top strongman are much shorter and stouter, more resembling offensive linemen. The other Icelandic athlete posted also didn’t look particularly short limbed to me. I think the poster may have been fooled by his untucked shirt.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Pardon me--should read "I don't think his point about Icelanders seems correct." I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today--didn't they also do lots of fishing in the cold?
    , @Ron Mexico
    "much shorter and stouter"
    In addition to Hafthor (1× winner), Ted van der Parre (1×), Magnus Samuelsson (1), Phil Pfister (1), Janne Virtanen (1), Geoff Capes (2), and Brian Shaw (4) were all 6'6" or taller. The majority of WSM winners were 6'3", though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.
  7. Anonymous[592] • Disclaimer says:

    The whole “people’s limbs are long in order to dissipate heat” theory seems pretty suspect to begin with, as applied to any race.

    • Agree: Muggles
    • Replies: @anon
    Right, if that were true, shouldn't lanky, long-limbed Indonesian, Malaysian, Thai, Vietnamese, Pinoy, Subcontinental athletes be dominating the NBA?
  8. There are different ecological niches or local optima (optimums?). Samoans went off for body strenghth.Maybe a Samoan with longer arms still is not a good basketball player, and would be wrestled down by a short arm Samoan.

  9. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Perhaps this is true of Polynesians but I don't think his point about Icelanders doesn't seem correct. It is ironic to bring up Hafthor, who looks kind of like a 2x larger LeBron James and played pro basketball before his strongman career. His unusually long limbs are a major asset to him picking up bulky objects and in throwing events. Most other top strongman are much shorter and stouter, more resembling offensive linemen. The other Icelandic athlete posted also didn't look particularly short limbed to me. I think the poster may have been fooled by his untucked shirt.

    Pardon me–should read “I don’t think his point about Icelanders seems correct.” I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today–didn’t they also do lots of fishing in the cold?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today–didn’t they also do lots of fishing in the cold?
     
    In the waters of their area, you didn't get in the water at all or you were soon dead, it was very cold. Samoans got in the water because it was often warm and sometimes relatively cold, but rarely really really cold, and if it was they learned to stay out or die of hypothermia.

    The necessities of basketball happen to correspond with the attributes of some indigenous primitive peoples (negroes) and not others (Samoans). Samoans are not competitive in basketball. Negroes are good at football and basketball. Some other things Samoans are better at than negroes and some things neither group is especially adapted to.

    Whites in general didn't do very well in sub-Saharan Africa except at the temperate tip such as Rhodesia and South Africa, until modern disease control was brought in. Evolution, see, is actually a thing.
  10. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Star basketball players, with the exception of some sharpshooters like J.J. Reddick, tend to have extremely long arms, even relative to their famously tall heights. Long limbs are good for dissipating heat in the tropics.

    There’s a measure called the ape index for wingspans that they use for NBA players:

    https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks, very interesting.

    Maybe in the future the NBA will break "wingspan" down into shoulder width and arm length. The latter tends to make you a more imprecise shooter because the longer the arms the more tiny errors can build up.

    But, my presumption from following the great Bill Walton down Rush St. in Chicago is that shoulder width correlates strongly with formidability at most sports. For example, I can recall watching in the late 1970s the stars of the L.A. Dodger baseball team that went to 4 World Series from 1974-1981 jogging in the outfield -- Garvey, Cey, Lopes, Dusty Baker, and Reggie Smith -- and noting how extraordinarily wide they were.

    , @PiltdownMan
    That index will have to be renamed the moment some SJW discovers it.
  11. @Some Guy
    So low armspan ratio is an adaption to cold, yet Coon's list of armspan in Europe shows the opposite: https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1264789135656697861/photo/1

    Northern Europeans have the highest ratios and southern Europeans the lowest.

    A lot of Southern Europeans have ancestors who invaded from Northern Europe.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    That doesn't explain it though. If ancestral southern Europeans were long armed, and ancestral northern Europeans were short-armed, then no amount of mixing between them could make southern Europeans more short-armed than northern Europeans.

    If the Coon data is correct, some other factor must be at play.
  12. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Pardon me--should read "I don't think his point about Icelanders seems correct." I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today--didn't they also do lots of fishing in the cold?

    I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today–didn’t they also do lots of fishing in the cold?

    In the waters of their area, you didn’t get in the water at all or you were soon dead, it was very cold. Samoans got in the water because it was often warm and sometimes relatively cold, but rarely really really cold, and if it was they learned to stay out or die of hypothermia.

    The necessities of basketball happen to correspond with the attributes of some indigenous primitive peoples (negroes) and not others (Samoans). Samoans are not competitive in basketball. Negroes are good at football and basketball. Some other things Samoans are better at than negroes and some things neither group is especially adapted to.

    Whites in general didn’t do very well in sub-Saharan Africa except at the temperate tip such as Rhodesia and South Africa, until modern disease control was brought in. Evolution, see, is actually a thing.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not sure what your point is: you get plenty cold on a boat even if you don't jump in the sea. Besides, you're mistaken. There's a long tradition of bathing in frozen waters in N and NE Europe.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming
    , @anon
    Yes, the Baltic waters are not exactly warm enough for comfortable swimming at any time of the year. Despite this, the Balts tend to be tall, mostly long-limbed and therefore do well in basketball, swimming, rowing, and other sports requiring a tall, sturdy build, such as strongman, discus throwing etc.
    Guys like Latvian Porzingis (7-3) & Bertans (6-10), Lithuanians Sabonis (the father at 7-3+), Sabonis (the son at 6-11) llgauskas (7-3), Valanciunas (7-0), Motiejunas (7-0) have done OK in the NBA. That's out of the combined population of <5M. Americans of that heritage, such as Johnny (Jonaitis) Unitas and Dick Butkus, have also been decent at football.
  13. @kihowi
    What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    I’m one.

  14. Long limbs are good for dissipating heat in the tropics.

    Small islands aren’t all that hot. The sea breeze dissipates the heat, so the body doesn’t have to.

    Heat is a continental thing.

    Also, there are Samoans, and there are Samoans.

    Sports in American Samoa are slightly different from sports in Samoa. The main difference is that Samoans in American Samoa are more likely to follow or play American sports such as American football, basketball, and baseball. Western Samoans are more likely to follow or play rugby union, rugby league, and netball. Sports such as mixed martial arts, boxing, professional wrestling, and volleyball are popular among most ethnic Samoans regardless of location.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sports_in_american_samoa

    Lately they’re in different time zones (and days) and drive on different sides of the road. Are they any good at cricket?

  15. He mentions the new deadlift record by the Icelander who played The Mountain on Game of Thrones. All else equal, having short arms makes it harder to deadlift, as the bar has to travel a greater distance to lockout (this is especially true when you’re 6’9”, like Icelandic guy is).

  16. I always thought of Polynesians as strong Asians.

  17. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today–didn’t they also do lots of fishing in the cold?
     
    In the waters of their area, you didn't get in the water at all or you were soon dead, it was very cold. Samoans got in the water because it was often warm and sometimes relatively cold, but rarely really really cold, and if it was they learned to stay out or die of hypothermia.

    The necessities of basketball happen to correspond with the attributes of some indigenous primitive peoples (negroes) and not others (Samoans). Samoans are not competitive in basketball. Negroes are good at football and basketball. Some other things Samoans are better at than negroes and some things neither group is especially adapted to.

    Whites in general didn't do very well in sub-Saharan Africa except at the temperate tip such as Rhodesia and South Africa, until modern disease control was brought in. Evolution, see, is actually a thing.

    Not sure what your point is: you get plenty cold on a boat even if you don’t jump in the sea. Besides, you’re mistaken. There’s a long tradition of bathing in frozen waters in N and NE Europe.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming

  18. @Anonymous

    Star basketball players, with the exception of some sharpshooters like J.J. Reddick, tend to have extremely long arms, even relative to their famously tall heights. Long limbs are good for dissipating heat in the tropics.
     
    There's a measure called the ape index for wingspans that they use for NBA players:

    https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

    Thanks, very interesting.

    Maybe in the future the NBA will break “wingspan” down into shoulder width and arm length. The latter tends to make you a more imprecise shooter because the longer the arms the more tiny errors can build up.

    But, my presumption from following the great Bill Walton down Rush St. in Chicago is that shoulder width correlates strongly with formidability at most sports. For example, I can recall watching in the late 1970s the stars of the L.A. Dodger baseball team that went to 4 World Series from 1974-1981 jogging in the outfield — Garvey, Cey, Lopes, Dusty Baker, and Reggie Smith — and noting how extraordinarily wide they were.

    • LOL: SunBakedSuburb
  19. @Redneck farmer
    A lot of Southern Europeans have ancestors who invaded from Northern Europe.

    That doesn’t explain it though. If ancestral southern Europeans were long armed, and ancestral northern Europeans were short-armed, then no amount of mixing between them could make southern Europeans more short-armed than northern Europeans.

    If the Coon data is correct, some other factor must be at play.

    • Replies: @gate666
    coon is not correct.
  20. Architecture, assuming you have any, can go a long way to mitigate hot climate.

  21. @Anonymous

    Star basketball players, with the exception of some sharpshooters like J.J. Reddick, tend to have extremely long arms, even relative to their famously tall heights. Long limbs are good for dissipating heat in the tropics.
     
    There's a measure called the ape index for wingspans that they use for NBA players:

    https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

    That index will have to be renamed the moment some SJW discovers it.

  22. @Some Guy
    So low armspan ratio is an adaption to cold, yet Coon's list of armspan in Europe shows the opposite: https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1264789135656697861/photo/1

    Northern Europeans have the highest ratios and southern Europeans the lowest.

    Southern Europeans spent a lot of time in mountains due to raids from north, all peninsulas are actually quite mountainous, while northerners lived near coast, plus probably more neanderthal ancestry among Southern Europeans.

  23. @prosa123
    Something I read a while ago, unfortunately I don't remember the source, is that the Polynesian body type is ideal for retaining body heat in the water. Polynesians traditionally spent a great deal of time in the water while fishing, and the ocean in that part of the world can be colder than one would expect at certain times of the year. Long limbs would increase the loss of body heat.

    Whatever. Who’s ever heard of a fat baskeyball player? I searched this whole page for instances of the word fat. Wtaf.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Who’s ever heard of a fat baskeyball player?

    It's not for nothing that Charles Barkley was known as "The Round Mound of Rebound".
  24. Limbs length is just one factor among others. The most important factor is athleticism and blacks are more athletic than other ethnic groups.

  25. @Some Guy
    That doesn't explain it though. If ancestral southern Europeans were long armed, and ancestral northern Europeans were short-armed, then no amount of mixing between them could make southern Europeans more short-armed than northern Europeans.

    If the Coon data is correct, some other factor must be at play.

    coon is not correct.

  26. I wonder if a long wingspan is beneficial or detrimental at the quarterback position. I suppose one could make the argument that a longer arm is a stronger arm. But a quick release time is also important, as it helps avoid sacks and gives the defense less time to react. It would seem a shorter arm could cock the arm back and throw more quickly than a longer arm. It would be interesting to see what the wingspan was for QBs famous for their quick release, like Dan Marino and Michael Vick.

  27. the longer the limbs, the more energy you need to move em, so long limbs aren’t so good for long-distance rowing

    now about heat dissipation, well idunno. In whites the lankiest are the Nords and the Dinarids, and though the Dinaric region can get pretty fucking hot in the summer, it can also get really really cold in winter. If that was the only logic, then native Siberians should also be pretty lanky – ludicrous temperature differences there too

  28. @Charon
    Whatever. Who's ever heard of a fat baskeyball player? I searched this whole page for instances of the word fat. Wtaf.

    Who’s ever heard of a fat baskeyball player?

    It’s not for nothing that Charles Barkley was known as “The Round Mound of Rebound”.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    "Who’s ever heard of a fat basketball player?"
    Mel "Dinner Bell" Turpin, Stanley Roberts, one of the John Williams's, Robert "Tractor" Traylor, Oliver "Pig" Miller, and Bryant "Big Country" Reeves all come to mind. Some would say Shaq was fat.
  29. I actually remember big Tony Solaita, the only Samoan to ever play major league baseball. There are a few others of part-Samoan descent:

    https://baseballsociologist.wordpress.com/2018/05/01/8400/

    As my relentlessly diverse ATM screen would no doubt remind me, May by the way is Pacific Islander Month

  30. @Some Guy
    So low armspan ratio is an adaption to cold, yet Coon's list of armspan in Europe shows the opposite: https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1264789135656697861/photo/1

    Northern Europeans have the highest ratios and southern Europeans the lowest.

    Europeans wear clothes.

  31. @prosa123
    Something I read a while ago, unfortunately I don't remember the source, is that the Polynesian body type is ideal for retaining body heat in the water. Polynesians traditionally spent a great deal of time in the water while fishing, and the ocean in that part of the world can be colder than one would expect at certain times of the year. Long limbs would increase the loss of body heat.

    It strikes me that many sea mammals have a good layer of blubber as well.

  32. Inca war was done with clubs. Look at the men in ecuador and you understand the big arms and chests. Hawaiians used slings and clubs for war. Long skinny arms are for spears and bows and arrows. I dont know how Samoas made war but I bet clubs.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Long skinny arms are for spears and bows and arrows.

    Long skinny arms may work for spears, but bowmen had to be extremely strong. The skeletons of medieval archers show massive arm and chest development.
  33. Steven Adams is a Polynesian basketball player. He is half Tongan. His height seems to come from his English father, who was 6’11”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Steven Adams' sister is an Olympic medalist shotputter.

    A muscular family.

  34. I went to school in South Seattle with Samoans and Blacks. Samoans are not just tall, they’re big. Yes, fat, but I mean their bones are big. I was always amazed by the size of their wrists, knees, fingers etc. Blacks on the other hand, being the only major race isolated from the Ice Age, tend to be elongated. Look at the hands of Blacks compared to Samoans. Blacks (Bantus) have ridiculously long fingers and modest bones. Samoans have ridiculously thick and stocky fingers.

    As mentioned in the first post, sailing long distances in the Pacific with Bronze Age technology leaves you totally exposed to hypothermia – ie cold adaptation. In addition, just because you live in the tropics doesn’t mean you evolved in the tropics. Jungle Asians are relatively recent arrivals in SE Asia and appear to retain at least some Ice Age traits. Otherwise they’d look like Blacks. Samoans evolved from Austroneasians (a subset of Jungle Asians) that sailed East and picked up some Austroloid admixture. That gene inflow probably gave them more options for evolution. They appear to be built for water, sailing and combat.

    I read somewhere that Pacific Islanders are more over-represented in the NFL than Kenyans are in marathon running. That makes sense considering how few Islanders there are in the world. Particularly full-blooded Islanders.

    (My time in the South End forced me to be scrappy, and I stood up to the Blacks on many occasions, but I was always terrified of the Samoans.)

    • Replies: @Bill P
    Franklin or Rainier Beach?
    , @Don't Look at Me
    Hmm. So who would be the jungle caucasians? Indians?
  35. As Jules Winfield explained, Samoans and even half-Samoans tend to have obesity-prone genetics.

    But they are very strong too.

    A huge number of pro-wrestlers hail from one Samoan family. And this does not include a few famous Tongans :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoa%27i_family

    Some even get repackaged as Japanese :

  36. I recently watched an interview with the coach of the Fijian Rugby 7s. Fiji are the best at rugby 7s in the world, I think they’d be the same racial/ethnic type as Samoans basically, but perhaps bigger? Anyway apparently when Fijian rugby players are operated on, surgeons say their tendons and ligaments are much thicker than whites and also blacks. Also, most Fijians eat a huge amount of sugar, and are addicted to it – but perhaps the same isn’t true for Samoa.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    Fijians are Melanesian, not Polynesian like Samoans.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    Fiji are the best at rugby 7s in the world, I think they’d be the same racial/ethnic type as Samoans basically, but perhaps bigger?

     

    Not bigger -- faster.

    Rugby 7s rewards speed more than any other factor. The Fijians, who for many years totally dominated the Hong Kong Rugby 7s, tend to have a steady supply of mid-sized speedsters to complement their big guys, whereas the Samoans look stockier.
  37. This reminds me of the question “why don’t African-American play baseball anymore?” The plain answer is that they are not interested in it any more. Similarly, couldn’t the answer just be that Samoans are more naturally interested in football than basketball? Samoan culture has a reputation for being very warlike, so the aggressive and combative nature of football would much better suit them than basketball. It’s also interesting to note that Samoans have the highest rate of military enlistment of any state or territory in the union.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Samoa

  38. This post by Steve and the subsequent comments are amusingly autistic. Though it’s good to see Steve branching-out from his plague coverage. However silly.

  39. @Haole
    Inca war was done with clubs. Look at the men in ecuador and you understand the big arms and chests. Hawaiians used slings and clubs for war. Long skinny arms are for spears and bows and arrows. I dont know how Samoas made war but I bet clubs.

    Long skinny arms are for spears and bows and arrows.

    Long skinny arms may work for spears, but bowmen had to be extremely strong. The skeletons of medieval archers show massive arm and chest development.

    • Replies: @Haole
    Reaching and slicing, swords and knifes would benefit those with longer arms. Maybe longer arms show how long your ancestors used metal?
  40. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @kihowi
    What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    Order from Eddie Bauer, son.

    https://www.eddiebauer.com/c/20001/men?cm_re=homepage_1_OB_S_mmemorialday_200513

  41. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:

    Samoans aren’t known as improvisers. African Americans have proven, time and again, to be amazing improvisers, both verbally and physically. Basketball favors improvisation skills over football.
    The right side of a bell curve matters.

  42. @Cowboy Shaw
    Steven Adams is a Polynesian basketball player. He is half Tongan. His height seems to come from his English father, who was 6'11".

    Steven Adams’ sister is an Olympic medalist shotputter.

    A muscular family.

  43. @kaganovitch
    Long skinny arms are for spears and bows and arrows.

    Long skinny arms may work for spears, but bowmen had to be extremely strong. The skeletons of medieval archers show massive arm and chest development.

    Reaching and slicing, swords and knifes would benefit those with longer arms. Maybe longer arms show how long your ancestors used metal?

  44. The fact that rowing favours long arms is a function of how rowlocks (‘rollicks’) work – long arms enable a longer lever. In modern rowing most of the power comes from a sliding seat, which enables leg drive to initiate each stroke and further extends the stroke length. Leg drive provides most motive power, while the ‘pull’ in a proper rowing stroke extends oar momentum at the end of the stroke – it doesn’t initiate it.

    This young woman (who has a near-perfect rower’s frame) is a case study…

    This is very different to fixed-seat rowing (like ancient galleys), which uses a lot of back; long arms are less of an advantage.

    Long arms are even less advantageous in kayak paddling, which is why good kayakers don’t look much like rowers.

    Polynesians were a canoe people: they didn’t have rowlocks.

    Polynesian rowing is much more like canoe paddling: one-bladed oar, with the ‘rower’ seated (for longer trips) or kneeling (for bursts of speed – like Chinese dragon boat races).

    That favours a low centre of gravity, extreme core strength, and relatively short limbs. Those characterise the Polynesian physique to a ‘T’.

    Hard canoe paddling is really taxing if it’s done for any length of time, because it’s pretty inefficient (you’re basically digging your way through the water lol).

    Moderate-exertion canoe paddling can get the job done tough… the “first fleet” of 7 Maori waka hourua (double-hulled ocean-going canoes) took people all the way from Eastern Polynesia to Ao Tea Roa (3,500 km) in the mid-14th century. There’s no evidence – archaeological, traditional or historical – that they used sail for the initial expeditions (which took place between 750CE and 1350, culminating in the 7 initial ‘invasion’ canoes).

    The Polynesian “Age of Discovery” had been going on for almost a millennium before the European one really got underway. Just sayin’…

  45. @fatmanscoop
    I recently watched an interview with the coach of the Fijian Rugby 7s. Fiji are the best at rugby 7s in the world, I think they'd be the same racial/ethnic type as Samoans basically, but perhaps bigger? Anyway apparently when Fijian rugby players are operated on, surgeons say their tendons and ligaments are much thicker than whites and also blacks. Also, most Fijians eat a huge amount of sugar, and are addicted to it - but perhaps the same isn't true for Samoa.

    Fijians are Melanesian, not Polynesian like Samoans.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    Not being a dick here, what’s the difference?
  46. @anonymous jew
    I went to school in South Seattle with Samoans and Blacks. Samoans are not just tall, they're big. Yes, fat, but I mean their bones are big. I was always amazed by the size of their wrists, knees, fingers etc. Blacks on the other hand, being the only major race isolated from the Ice Age, tend to be elongated. Look at the hands of Blacks compared to Samoans. Blacks (Bantus) have ridiculously long fingers and modest bones. Samoans have ridiculously thick and stocky fingers.

    As mentioned in the first post, sailing long distances in the Pacific with Bronze Age technology leaves you totally exposed to hypothermia - ie cold adaptation. In addition, just because you live in the tropics doesn't mean you evolved in the tropics. Jungle Asians are relatively recent arrivals in SE Asia and appear to retain at least some Ice Age traits. Otherwise they'd look like Blacks. Samoans evolved from Austroneasians (a subset of Jungle Asians) that sailed East and picked up some Austroloid admixture. That gene inflow probably gave them more options for evolution. They appear to be built for water, sailing and combat.

    I read somewhere that Pacific Islanders are more over-represented in the NFL than Kenyans are in marathon running. That makes sense considering how few Islanders there are in the world. Particularly full-blooded Islanders.

    (My time in the South End forced me to be scrappy, and I stood up to the Blacks on many occasions, but I was always terrified of the Samoans.)

    Franklin or Rainier Beach?

  47. TMI. But yes. It was pretty crazy in the 90s. A lot has changed with the end of busing and gentrification. Now Ballard, Roosevelt and Lincoln are overwhelming White and top ranked (9-10). Rainier Beach still looks pretty ghetto though.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    I remember one huge Samoan guy who went to Franklin I think. "Tuti" IIRC. I never had any trouble with the Samoans. They were pretty chill. Some of the little gangsta blacks, OTOH...

    I lived between Mt. Baker and Seward Park, down by Genessee Park. I remember the little kids on bikes selling crack on 42nd by the community center down there back in the 90s. Back then Columbia City was all boarded up (I bet it is again today because of this lockdown).

    It was a hell of a lot scummier than it has been since 2000 or so, but just wait and see what happens over the next year or so. Wouldn't surprise me if it goes right back to being ghetto as Washington State spirals into insolvency. Glad I got out of there.
  48. @anonymous jew
    TMI. But yes. It was pretty crazy in the 90s. A lot has changed with the end of busing and gentrification. Now Ballard, Roosevelt and Lincoln are overwhelming White and top ranked (9-10). Rainier Beach still looks pretty ghetto though.

    I remember one huge Samoan guy who went to Franklin I think. “Tuti” IIRC. I never had any trouble with the Samoans. They were pretty chill. Some of the little gangsta blacks, OTOH…

    I lived between Mt. Baker and Seward Park, down by Genessee Park. I remember the little kids on bikes selling crack on 42nd by the community center down there back in the 90s. Back then Columbia City was all boarded up (I bet it is again today because of this lockdown).

    It was a hell of a lot scummier than it has been since 2000 or so, but just wait and see what happens over the next year or so. Wouldn’t surprise me if it goes right back to being ghetto as Washington State spirals into insolvency. Glad I got out of there.

  49. @fatmanscoop
    I recently watched an interview with the coach of the Fijian Rugby 7s. Fiji are the best at rugby 7s in the world, I think they'd be the same racial/ethnic type as Samoans basically, but perhaps bigger? Anyway apparently when Fijian rugby players are operated on, surgeons say their tendons and ligaments are much thicker than whites and also blacks. Also, most Fijians eat a huge amount of sugar, and are addicted to it - but perhaps the same isn't true for Samoa.

    Fiji are the best at rugby 7s in the world, I think they’d be the same racial/ethnic type as Samoans basically, but perhaps bigger?

    Not bigger — faster.

    Rugby 7s rewards speed more than any other factor. The Fijians, who for many years totally dominated the Hong Kong Rugby 7s, tend to have a steady supply of mid-sized speedsters to complement their big guys, whereas the Samoans look stockier.

  50. @Anonymous
    Perhaps this is true of Polynesians but I don't think his point about Icelanders doesn't seem correct. It is ironic to bring up Hafthor, who looks kind of like a 2x larger LeBron James and played pro basketball before his strongman career. His unusually long limbs are a major asset to him picking up bulky objects and in throwing events. Most other top strongman are much shorter and stouter, more resembling offensive linemen. The other Icelandic athlete posted also didn't look particularly short limbed to me. I think the poster may have been fooled by his untucked shirt.

    “much shorter and stouter”
    In addition to Hafthor (1× winner), Ted van der Parre (1×), Magnus Samuelsson (1), Phil Pfister (1), Janne Virtanen (1), Geoff Capes (2), and Brian Shaw (4) were all 6’6″ or taller. The majority of WSM winners were 6’3″, though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.

    • Replies: @Anonymous (n)

    The majority of WSM winners were 6’3″, though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.
     
    That's not quite right. It's just that the population of men who are 6'3 is significantly larger than those who are 6'6. In order to argue that 6'3 is the optimum height, you'd have to show that men who are that height are more over-represented among winners than men who are taller. Otherwise, you could make the argument that since full blooded Japanese make up the majority of all Japanese professional athletes and half black Japanese the minority, it must mean that being full Japanese is better for athletics than being half black.
  51. @kaganovitch
    Who’s ever heard of a fat baskeyball player?

    It's not for nothing that Charles Barkley was known as "The Round Mound of Rebound".

    “Who’s ever heard of a fat basketball player?”
    Mel “Dinner Bell” Turpin, Stanley Roberts, one of the John Williams’s, Robert “Tractor” Traylor, Oliver “Pig” Miller, and Bryant “Big Country” Reeves all come to mind. Some would say Shaq was fat.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Reeves wasn't really fat but Miller played at 380 for Sacramento in '98.
    , @anon
    They were not fat by American standards, just by NBA pro standards where sub-8% BF is the norm.
    Glen "Big Baby" Davis was also not the leanest, but quite an effective player in his day.
    He was once hit a by a small car (Fiat?) during a Celtics 2008 preseason visit to Rome. The car got hurt.
  52. @kihowi
    What if you are a white man and have long monkey arms to the point where you have difficulty buying shirts.

    Landsend.com

  53. @Ron Mexico
    "Who’s ever heard of a fat basketball player?"
    Mel "Dinner Bell" Turpin, Stanley Roberts, one of the John Williams's, Robert "Tractor" Traylor, Oliver "Pig" Miller, and Bryant "Big Country" Reeves all come to mind. Some would say Shaq was fat.

    Reeves wasn’t really fat but Miller played at 380 for Sacramento in ’98.

  54. anon[586] • Disclaimer says:

    You are what you eat, and Tongans eat turtle and pig.
    Worked at the Carlton Brewery on Brunswick St. The Valley 35 years ago, my coworker was an Abo from Far North Queensland.
    Anyway, one day i asked him how much Chinese ancestry he had, since he was pretty Chinese looking.
    None, he said.
    What had happened was that when the Chinese flocked to the Gold Rushes on the Palmer River in the 1870s, the local Abos found them to be much better eating than white men.
    The reason, according to my friend, is the Chinese diet of rice and greens provides a superior dining experience.

  55. @Ron Mexico
    "much shorter and stouter"
    In addition to Hafthor (1× winner), Ted van der Parre (1×), Magnus Samuelsson (1), Phil Pfister (1), Janne Virtanen (1), Geoff Capes (2), and Brian Shaw (4) were all 6'6" or taller. The majority of WSM winners were 6'3", though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.

    The majority of WSM winners were 6’3″, though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.

    That’s not quite right. It’s just that the population of men who are 6’3 is significantly larger than those who are 6’6. In order to argue that 6’3 is the optimum height, you’d have to show that men who are that height are more over-represented among winners than men who are taller. Otherwise, you could make the argument that since full blooded Japanese make up the majority of all Japanese professional athletes and half black Japanese the minority, it must mean that being full Japanese is better for athletics than being half black.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    6'3" winners (Don Rheinhout, JP Sigmarsson 4x, Mv Magnusson 4x, Jamie Reeves, Vasyl Viratsyuk, Zydrunas Savickas 4x, and Eddie Hall)
    42 WSM championships/ 16 times the winner has been listed as 6'3"

    The mean height of all 42 is 6'3.6"
  56. @Anonymous (n)

    The majority of WSM winners were 6’3″, though, making that the optimum height for the various disciplines.
     
    That's not quite right. It's just that the population of men who are 6'3 is significantly larger than those who are 6'6. In order to argue that 6'3 is the optimum height, you'd have to show that men who are that height are more over-represented among winners than men who are taller. Otherwise, you could make the argument that since full blooded Japanese make up the majority of all Japanese professional athletes and half black Japanese the minority, it must mean that being full Japanese is better for athletics than being half black.

    6’3″ winners (Don Rheinhout, JP Sigmarsson 4x, Mv Magnusson 4x, Jamie Reeves, Vasyl Viratsyuk, Zydrunas Savickas 4x, and Eddie Hall)
    42 WSM championships/ 16 times the winner has been listed as 6’3″

    The mean height of all 42 is 6’3.6″

  57. Reeves physique was dumpy.

  58. @prosa123
    Fijians are Melanesian, not Polynesian like Samoans.

    Not being a dick here, what’s the difference?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Melanesian people are black, like the people of the Somon Islands or New Guinea. Polynesians are brown, like the people of Tahiti or Samoa. The USN sailors in World War II didnt, as a rule, get tattoos of melanesian girls. As a rule.
  59. @Anonymous
    The whole “people’s limbs are long in order to dissipate heat” theory seems pretty suspect to begin with, as applied to any race.

    Right, if that were true, shouldn’t lanky, long-limbed Indonesian, Malaysian, Thai, Vietnamese, Pinoy, Subcontinental athletes be dominating the NBA?

  60. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I would also add that by this logic it seems strange that Balts and Scandinavians are so tall and lanky today–didn’t they also do lots of fishing in the cold?
     
    In the waters of their area, you didn't get in the water at all or you were soon dead, it was very cold. Samoans got in the water because it was often warm and sometimes relatively cold, but rarely really really cold, and if it was they learned to stay out or die of hypothermia.

    The necessities of basketball happen to correspond with the attributes of some indigenous primitive peoples (negroes) and not others (Samoans). Samoans are not competitive in basketball. Negroes are good at football and basketball. Some other things Samoans are better at than negroes and some things neither group is especially adapted to.

    Whites in general didn't do very well in sub-Saharan Africa except at the temperate tip such as Rhodesia and South Africa, until modern disease control was brought in. Evolution, see, is actually a thing.

    Yes, the Baltic waters are not exactly warm enough for comfortable swimming at any time of the year. Despite this, the Balts tend to be tall, mostly long-limbed and therefore do well in basketball, swimming, rowing, and other sports requiring a tall, sturdy build, such as strongman, discus throwing etc.
    Guys like Latvian Porzingis (7-3) & Bertans (6-10), Lithuanians Sabonis (the father at 7-3+), Sabonis (the son at 6-11) llgauskas (7-3), Valanciunas (7-0), Motiejunas (7-0) have done OK in the NBA. That’s out of the combined population of <5M. Americans of that heritage, such as Johnny (Jonaitis) Unitas and Dick Butkus, have also been decent at football.

  61. anon[859] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Mexico
    "Who’s ever heard of a fat basketball player?"
    Mel "Dinner Bell" Turpin, Stanley Roberts, one of the John Williams's, Robert "Tractor" Traylor, Oliver "Pig" Miller, and Bryant "Big Country" Reeves all come to mind. Some would say Shaq was fat.

    They were not fat by American standards, just by NBA pro standards where sub-8% BF is the norm.
    Glen “Big Baby” Davis was also not the leanest, but quite an effective player in his day.
    He was once hit a by a small car (Fiat?) during a Celtics 2008 preseason visit to Rome. The car got hurt.

  62. Polynesians are the fattest people in the world, based on BMI. (See Tonga and Somoa at the top.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index

    Extra fat surely helps with paddling over long sea voyages.

    Also, I noticed that the women have a much higher BMI than the men. I’m not sure why that would be.

  63. @anonymous jew
    I went to school in South Seattle with Samoans and Blacks. Samoans are not just tall, they're big. Yes, fat, but I mean their bones are big. I was always amazed by the size of their wrists, knees, fingers etc. Blacks on the other hand, being the only major race isolated from the Ice Age, tend to be elongated. Look at the hands of Blacks compared to Samoans. Blacks (Bantus) have ridiculously long fingers and modest bones. Samoans have ridiculously thick and stocky fingers.

    As mentioned in the first post, sailing long distances in the Pacific with Bronze Age technology leaves you totally exposed to hypothermia - ie cold adaptation. In addition, just because you live in the tropics doesn't mean you evolved in the tropics. Jungle Asians are relatively recent arrivals in SE Asia and appear to retain at least some Ice Age traits. Otherwise they'd look like Blacks. Samoans evolved from Austroneasians (a subset of Jungle Asians) that sailed East and picked up some Austroloid admixture. That gene inflow probably gave them more options for evolution. They appear to be built for water, sailing and combat.

    I read somewhere that Pacific Islanders are more over-represented in the NFL than Kenyans are in marathon running. That makes sense considering how few Islanders there are in the world. Particularly full-blooded Islanders.

    (My time in the South End forced me to be scrappy, and I stood up to the Blacks on many occasions, but I was always terrified of the Samoans.)

    Hmm. So who would be the jungle caucasians? Indians?

  64. @Ganderson
    Not being a dick here, what’s the difference?

    Melanesian people are black, like the people of the Somon Islands or New Guinea. Polynesians are brown, like the people of Tahiti or Samoa. The USN sailors in World War II didnt, as a rule, get tattoos of melanesian girls. As a rule.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    Thanks
  65. @JMcG
    Melanesian people are black, like the people of the Somon Islands or New Guinea. Polynesians are brown, like the people of Tahiti or Samoa. The USN sailors in World War II didnt, as a rule, get tattoos of melanesian girls. As a rule.

    Thanks

  66. Q: Why are there no Haitian baseball players?
    A: Because every time you give a Haitian a baseball glove he makes soup with it.

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