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From the Wall Street Journal:
German-Style Apprenticeships Simply Can’t Be Replicated
Half of young Germans enter vocational training, and the rigid labor market relies on certification.By Eric A. Hanushek
June 18, 2017 5:33 p.m. ETSay the words “apprenticeship program,” as the Trump administration has been doing recently, and maybe you imagine a win-win: Young people welcomed by companies that want to train them to become skilled workers.
Some American policy makers have begun to see Germany’s approach—credited with helping it navigate the 2008 recession while keeping youth unemployment in the single digits—as the magic formula. But adapting the German system for the U.S. is little more than a dream.
Over half of young Germans enter apprenticeships, which can lead to certification in more than 300 different careers. Many are blue-collar jobs ranging from construction to baking, but apprenticeships also cover white-collar fields like information technology and engineering.
… But this comes at a cost. Workers enter the job market with skills that often become obsolete as industries change. The early-career advantage is offset by disadvantages later in life. Research shows that after age 50 German workers with general education do better than vocationally trained ones, many of whom leave the workforce.
In other words, people whose main strength is a strong back do worse after age 50 in Germany than people whose main strength is a strong brain. But in America …
Germany and the European Union recognize the need to retrain people whose earlier skills become obsolete. There are continuous calls for “lifelong learning.” Unfortunately, governments have not figured out effective ways to retrain older workers, and companies often don’t see the advantage of doing so. Training over the course of a career is significantly more prevalent among workers with a general education.
It’s almost as if people who qualified for more advanced training when young were better at being trained some more when they are old.
The largest problem of skills in the U.S. today isn’t a shortage of young workers with specific competencies. Instead it is a need for more general cognitive skills that give workers the ability to adapt to new circumstances and new jobs. In that area, American schools are not competitive with their international competitors—and more apprenticeships won’t help.
Mr. Hanushek is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University.
Okay, so All We Need to Do is, uh, give American workers more General Cognitive Skills…
I’d guess the main reason we could never have anything like this is because it would put a dent in the Education-Industrial Complex. I mean, what’s actually good for average people pales next to the student loan/college rackets.
“Okay, so All We Need to Do is, uh, give American workers more General Cognitive Skills…”
It’s almost as if, for some reason, the current generation of young Americans is much dumber than the current generation of young Germans, although I’ve heard that Merkel is trying to fix that.
And why the hell would any American want to take vocational training in skills like construction and bakery when anybody over the age of 12 knows that anyone in such a job will be rapidly replaced by an illegal foreigner working for half the price?
(Most noticeable in the US, but we're fast catching up. We just need more of wrong kind of immigrant.)
The mere idea of condemning people to "trades" based on an exam written during the teens!
The differing results by race would merely open up a whole new gap to close.Replies: @Jimi
A German friend of mine ended up in an apprenticeship program that was the equivalent of half work/half business school. I’m not entirely clear on how it worked, but he’d work for six months and then study at a University for 6 months. The school cost nothing to him and they paid him a modest salary while it happened. He got both real world work experience, a salary, a degree, and no debt. Also because they have absurd labor laws, he had to take his mandated 30 days vacation during the half of the year he was working and not the school side. Something they’re doing over there is clearly working.
It probably helps a lot that their Universities aren’t private luxury resorts for adolescents like the massive research institution I attended. Just an ancient building with classrooms and no frills is probably a bit easier to convince a company to pay for.
This ties in nicely with the question raised recently at SlateStarCodex about why the threat of AI isn’t taken more seriously. The untold story here is about why American workers need to be able to change jobs and adapt. They’re being replaced, and this is only going to continue. But if people talked about that instead of job training, somebody might notice that there is a “who” doing the replacing, which would create all kinds of problems.
Apprenticeships=less student loans.
The Wall Street Journal is pro-loans and finance of any kind.
“Is it good for the investment and rentier classes?” That’s the only question one has to ask to predict the WSJ editorial position on almost any matter.
Now that Germany had embraced Diversity, expect to read in 10 years about the failure of the German technical apprenticeship program as it becomes plagued by diseparate impact and The Gap.
Why? Because Germany saw a spike in population of those with lower general cognitive skills than native born Germans?
No, silly rabbit, because of Racism!!
The key to the German system is moderate, at best, population growth. They're trying to ramp up the quantity of the inputs and expecting to match the quality of the previous output. Seems unlikely.
The main reason it is unlikely to work in the US is the intransigence of pretty much anyone who would be required to change what they're currently doing to make it work: the schools, the businesses, the bureaucrats, even many of the potential employees. Let's be honest: anybody who currently has a good job can't be bothered to give a wet slap about anybody who doesn't. They may talk about it, but they'll undertake not the slightest risk to do anything about it.Replies: @Mr. Anon
So a program used in a country of 81 million people could never work in America, but programs in countries with 5 million people, like the educational systems in Denmark and Finland, are easily replicable in our country of 320 million.
So, yeah, these contradictory things all work swimmingly for them.
It’s depressing, but maybe not surprising, that the WSJ published an article like this. I can remember a time when the paper was open to experimentation and new ideas.
But that was a long time ago.
The United States could never have had such a program that puts young people into apprentice vs general education career tracks because it would have resulted in too blatantly cosmetic a stratification. My bet is Northern Europe will also have to give it up, or at least give it up for a while, until those countries complete their transition to Brazilian cosmetics later in this century.
Steve’s snarky closing reminds me of peers who attended university to major in entrepreneurship. As though creativity and drive are replicable skills that can be easily taught and absorbed.
If only more Americans learned “cognitive skills” like entrepreneurship.
I thought the solution was to import more poor people from Somalia and Honduras…
Doesn’t the guild tradition /system go back to the 14th century in Germany ? Gotta disagree with Steve here – people in trades there have strong brains – in a functional sense as opposed to an analytical sense .
A German guy I knew majored in fabrics. He was trained in all aspects of the basic chemistry, mechanical properties of diverse materials, structure of yarns and weaves and wholesale purchasing of fabrics. Sure some of his knowledge would be outdated 30 years down the road, but in what field would that not be a truism?
This WSJ article is more of the usual ignorance-fostering bullshot and rationalizing that advances our decline into cultural and economic incompetence. The argument presented is tantamount to saying that narrow expertise and general reasoning call upon conflicting abilities and cannot exist in the same person.
Please God, spare me from the stupidity and ignorance or (if they know better but lie out of cynical self interest) the outright evil machinations of our Fearless Leaders.Replies: @Forbes
It's almost as if, for some reason, the current generation of young Americans is much dumber than the current generation of young Germans, although I've heard that Merkel is trying to fix that.
And why the hell would any American want to take vocational training in skills like construction and bakery when anybody over the age of 12 knows that anyone in such a job will be rapidly replaced by an illegal foreigner working for half the price?Replies: @nebulafox, @Frau Katze
Completely agree, with the additional caveat that it personally disgusts me to note that the people most pushing apprentice programs/trade schools are always making sure it is for *other* people’s kids, never theirs.
It’s definitely not an inherently bad idea in and of itself-properly applied, it makes a lot of sense. But as will inevitably be applied in 21st Century America, it will further exacerbate the neo-feudalism that seems to be the end desire of much of our elite. It’s the same reason why the draft, while theoretically a force for social inequality, will inevitably fall short of expectations, as the Moms and Dads of the well-connected ensure that little Johnny because an aide-de-camp rather than lugging a rifle in the Poor Bloody Infantry.
Wouldn't I want to have her to have an arts or philosophy degree? (aka Didn't I love her well enough?" - the line they give you at the vet's office when they're trying to sell you something extra you don't need.)
I don't see what the point of a degree that would saddle a possible young family with debt (we can't afford it) and possibly push her out of her (tenuous right now) Christianity forever. It almost did me. Sounds great, pointless debt and no hope. But she would have gotten a degree! She would be well edmucated so it was all worth it. Right.
Just imagine the public-private partnership opportunities available to help Americans achieve their utmost. All it will take is a few dollars sprinkled here and there among supportive Congressmen and their willing collaborators. There might even be some actual training, for a nominal service charge.
When/If the student loan bubble pops we’ll probably see more apprenticeship programs.
The only white collar apprenticeship program I’m aware of is run by Trafigura, a commodity trading firm that spun off from Marc Rich’s company. They’ll take a smart kid with no degree and eventually he can become a full trader. It seems like a good idea and I’d imagine it gets them a handful of high-potential junior employees that more snobbish firms won’t consider.
Rich himself worked his way up from the mail room at Phibro, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a factor in the decision to implement such a program.
If only more Americans learned "cognitive skills" like entrepreneurship.Replies: @ATX Hipster
I agree with you in principle, but I also think the school system and most middle class kids’ upbringing hammer an employee mentality into them. I’d imagine there’s some fraction of college kids that actually benefit from majoring in entrepreneurship, if only for a shift in their mentality.
‘
Same shit new bottle. I’ve heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don’t keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn’t work for older workers – lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You’re better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can’t have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation – nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.
When I met with this particular company they told me one of their biggest problems was getting the counselors at the local high schools to even mention their apprentice program to any decent graduating seniors.Replies: @Opinionator, @Polynikes
Yeah, those wood and metalworking machines are relatively expensive and lawyers sued school district's shops out of existence.
When I was young every boy took 7th and 8th grade shop. First we learned "mechanical drawing", which is definitely a cognitive skill in that it forces the mind to unwrap a 3-D object into it's x,y,z perspectives--not unlike some SAT and IQ test questions do.Replies: @Jim Don Bob
Looking back, the whole experience strikes me as being a pretty good encapsulation of the economic and education systems.
“Okay, so All We Need to Do is, uh, give American workers more General Cognitive Skills…”
When it comes to lacking general cognitive skills, Mr. Honushek looks like he knows what he’s talking about. Maybe we could start with him.
Having noticed that the upper 20% SES in the country went to college, Americans have concluded that if everybody goes to college, then everybody will get into the top 20%.
Germans have real respect for workers that aren’t white-collar eggheads, an attitude which is a necessary component to the program but sorely missing in the US.
“Why America Can’t Have Nice Things Like German Apprentice Programs”
Because the idea of a country like America is different ?
Why America Can’t Have Nice Things Like German Apprentice Programs
America is different than feudal Europe?
In America, if you're "smart," it's automatically assumed that college is The Only Way for you. But as older, more experienced cultures have learned through trial and error, not everyone who scores high on an IQ test finds the academic world very compelling, enriching or fulfilling. There are folks who are endlessly enthralled with all the theoretical implications of Newton's Laws. And there are guys who think Newton's Laws are interesting mainly because they can use those laws to help them Build Cool Shit. (Most of what I understand about physics was taught to me by my uncle, who only has a high school diploma but earned a fortune working on race car engines.)
There are plenty of brilliant people who'd be perfectly happy doing so-called "blue collar" work. Society is robbed of a great deal of potential when it relentlessly channels everybody on the right tail of the bell curve into a college track. In the real world, some nontrivial fraction of the folks on the right side of the bell curve are actually much happier and more productive in blue collar occupations -- often, they end up playing important roles as innovators and entrepreneurs.
A sensible education system will take this into account. Alas, we do not have one in the U.S.Replies: @Mr. Blank
Related, someone tweeted a link to a study today showing that Mexican immigrants to the U.S. have lower cognitive ability (and better manual ability or something compensatory) than Mexicans in Mexico. Anyone have the link?
Along the watchtower: The rise and fall of U.S. low-skilled immigration
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2_hansonetal.pdf
It is a long paper and I'm not seeing your explicit conclusion, but here is a sample:This might have been interpreted as you describe (though it would be a reach IMHO):There are countervailing pressures for immigration. For example, elites wanting to work in the best environment, but one can argue those who are successful at home have a disincentive to emigrate.Replies: @Dave Pinsen
I am a big fan of the German three-tier schooling system, which funnels pupils into three types of secondary education based on intellectual profiles – Hauptschule, Realschule, and Gymnasium, with further education/training into manual labor, technical apprenticeship/training, and university.
It’s an excellent, realistic system that produces workers whose tasks are appropriately matched to their capacity. It’s certainly better and more productive than the pseudo-egalitarian fantasy of “everyone can go to college” that is sold in the United States.
The real reason why we can’t have it in the U.S. is the racial implication of such a system. If we were to implement a system such as this, we will end up with high-end whites and Asians at universities, average whites doing apprenticeships and technical work, and blacks and Hispanics as the menial labor force… which is, by and large, what we have anyway, but under the German-style system the racial-education/employment division will be even starker and institutionalized. And, of course, that just won’t cut it with the prevailing establishment ideology human bio-uniformity.
“Okay, so All We Need to Do is, uh, give American workers more General Cognitive Skills…”
Yeah – and throw in more entrepeneurial skills, too, like self marketing . Not to forget self esteem!
Then all is fine. As the genius Friedman in the NYT recently had it: “Normal is over” in the labor market anyway. It’s all crazy now.
The extreme example for this is Switzerland, where bus-drivers in some places make more money than Geraman Junior-Professors – not to mention carpenters, who can quite easily make ten thousend/ year more, then bus-drivers in Siwtzerland, whereas it’s not at all unusual, that architects in Germany are being paid a quarter (no mistake) of the swiss carpenter’s wage.
FYI an apprenticeship example in CO –avoid the EIC indentured servitude scam.
Applicants : perform your own due diligence, I list it as an example.
http://www.reoinc.com/apprenticeship-program
Same shit new bottle. I've heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don't keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn't work for older workers - lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You're better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can't have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation - nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JackOH, @Polynikes, @ThreeCranes, @kofi anon
This is sadly all too true.
Oh good, so we can end the H1-B program, right?
America is different than feudal Europe?Replies: @Mr. Blank, @Anonymous
I used to think this, too. Contact with the real world changed my thinking.
In America, if you’re “smart,” it’s automatically assumed that college is The Only Way for you. But as older, more experienced cultures have learned through trial and error, not everyone who scores high on an IQ test finds the academic world very compelling, enriching or fulfilling. There are folks who are endlessly enthralled with all the theoretical implications of Newton’s Laws. And there are guys who think Newton’s Laws are interesting mainly because they can use those laws to help them Build Cool Shit. (Most of what I understand about physics was taught to me by my uncle, who only has a high school diploma but earned a fortune working on race car engines.)
There are plenty of brilliant people who’d be perfectly happy doing so-called “blue collar” work. Society is robbed of a great deal of potential when it relentlessly channels everybody on the right tail of the bell curve into a college track. In the real world, some nontrivial fraction of the folks on the right side of the bell curve are actually much happier and more productive in blue collar occupations — often, they end up playing important roles as innovators and entrepreneurs.
A sensible education system will take this into account. Alas, we do not have one in the U.S.
When it comes to lacking general cognitive skills, Mr. Honushek looks like he knows what he's talking about. Maybe we could start with him.Replies: @Dieter Kief
“When it comes to lacking general cognitive skills, Mr. Honushek looks like he knows what he’s talking about” – ehhee – could well be, he labors on kind a unconsciously, or halfconsciously and therefor doesn’t really grab what’s wrong with his ideas. Might just be pushing his old beloved standard-ideas forward one more time, as he has done so many times before. That’s the regular “work”-modus of many of those “think”-tanks, isn’t it? Plus – he might lack true grit – (as it happens, I have answered your True Grit remark about 19th century dialogue).
America is different than feudal Europe?Replies: @Mr. Blank, @Anonymous
C F Martin guitars are in the United States because the founder was caught in a conflict between the violinmakers guild and the cabinetmakers. They could not figure out which guild to put him in.
Nothing that the cure-all of boatloads of third worlders wouldn’t fix, I’m sure.
I mean, they have saved our health care system, right? Hold it, maybe that’s not a good example. The student debt nonsense, they have…. oh wait, that isn’t very good either, is it.
Maybe someone here can help me, I am sure there are a bunch of examples I am overlooking and just having a little brain freeze here.
the main reason 50 + have higher unemployment rates has nothing to do with education: the labour laws require older people be better paid than younger ones (as per the collective bargaining schemes) which is not correlated with productivity above a certain point.
While experience is valuable a 55 year old car mechanic is not necessarily better than a 35 year old (who already has almost 20 years of work experience, if he started his apprenticeship at the age of 15)…
They should be paid the same, but this is illegal so to speak…
It's an excellent, realistic system that produces workers whose tasks are appropriately matched to their capacity. It's certainly better and more productive than the pseudo-egalitarian fantasy of "everyone can go to college" that is sold in the United States.
The real reason why we can't have it in the U.S. is the racial implication of such a system. If we were to implement a system such as this, we will end up with high-end whites and Asians at universities, average whites doing apprenticeships and technical work, and blacks and Hispanics as the menial labor force... which is, by and large, what we have anyway, but under the German-style system the racial-education/employment division will be even starker and institutionalized. And, of course, that just won't cut it with the prevailing establishment ideology human bio-uniformity.Replies: @MBlanc46
You almost said “tracking”. Punishment would have been swift and sure.
Why? Because Germany saw a spike in population of those with lower general cognitive skills than native born Germans?
No, silly rabbit, because of Racism!!Replies: @Oleaginous Outrager
There’s already a good deal of loud moaning in Italy that there aren’t enough “jobs programs” for newly-arrived “immigrants” and because of that, “they’re turning to crime”. Expect such kvetching to grow in volume in Germany soon too (along with the crime, of course).
The key to the German system is moderate, at best, population growth. They’re trying to ramp up the quantity of the inputs and expecting to match the quality of the previous output. Seems unlikely.
The main reason it is unlikely to work in the US is the intransigence of pretty much anyone who would be required to change what they’re currently doing to make it work: the schools, the businesses, the bureaucrats, even many of the potential employees. Let’s be honest: anybody who currently has a good job can’t be bothered to give a wet slap about anybody who doesn’t. They may talk about it, but they’ll undertake not the slightest risk to do anything about it.
Same shit new bottle. I've heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don't keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn't work for older workers - lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You're better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can't have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation - nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JackOH, @Polynikes, @ThreeCranes, @kofi anon
Excellent comment, agree 100%.
The last decade or so I’ve heard whole landfills of rhetoric from educationistas and politicians about the need for more education and more training. Most talk is either featherbedding for schoolteachers and professors, or, more darkly, a way to divert the public from issues we routinely address here at Unz.
The actual history of labor economics as I see it is that fewer skills and “general cognitive abilities” are needed in any given field as it matures. The first atomic bombs were made by Nobel Prize winners; the next umpteen thousand were not. Home building used to take skilled plasterers; nowadays drywall hangers. Medical laboratory technicians used to have chemistry degrees; nowadays certified techs do the work. Retail workers used to have detailed product knowledge and detailed knowledge of customer preferences; nowadays they stock shelves and work cash registers. This list (with exceptions) goes on. Foreign language translators are being displaced by computerized translation programs that are imperfect but dirt cheap.
“Same shit new bottle”. That’s right on the money, bro’.
Apprenticeship is very popular here in California. Most UC Berkeley engineering majors are picked up in mid February to do apprentice work during the summer. For FREE!
My wife’s younger daughter keeps bringing them home to meet us. One of her boyfriends got a full tour of Europe as part of the deal.
There’s a minimum wage problem and other employment regulations in the mix here. They get comp’d instead.
In America, if you're "smart," it's automatically assumed that college is The Only Way for you. But as older, more experienced cultures have learned through trial and error, not everyone who scores high on an IQ test finds the academic world very compelling, enriching or fulfilling. There are folks who are endlessly enthralled with all the theoretical implications of Newton's Laws. And there are guys who think Newton's Laws are interesting mainly because they can use those laws to help them Build Cool Shit. (Most of what I understand about physics was taught to me by my uncle, who only has a high school diploma but earned a fortune working on race car engines.)
There are plenty of brilliant people who'd be perfectly happy doing so-called "blue collar" work. Society is robbed of a great deal of potential when it relentlessly channels everybody on the right tail of the bell curve into a college track. In the real world, some nontrivial fraction of the folks on the right side of the bell curve are actually much happier and more productive in blue collar occupations -- often, they end up playing important roles as innovators and entrepreneurs.
A sensible education system will take this into account. Alas, we do not have one in the U.S.Replies: @Mr. Blank
Steve sometimes points out how — in a kind of banal confirmation of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis — our thinking as a society is limited by our ignorance of certain mental categories. The writers of the New York Times, for example, appear woefully handicapped by their apparent ignorance of the phenomenon of “hate hoaxes.”
I’d suggest the American education system is crippled by a similar categorical ignorance. Specifically, American education appears entirely ignorant of the phenomenon of the smart kid who’s not really cut out for academics.
The basic assumption of American education is the completely unproven, highly questionable idea that every smart kid absolutely MUST go to college. This assumption persists despite the fact that a roll call of America’s greatest innovators and business titans would be noticeably light on college graduates.
The ultimate solution for American education isn’t really German-style apprentice programs. It’s a formal recognition that there are plenty of smart kids who aren’t really intellectuals.
In my last comment, I mentioned my uncle — he got rich working on race cars, but he has only a high school diploma. He grew up in a different time — small-town America in the late 60s. I shudder to think what would happen to him if he were coming up today — he’d be recognized as a smart kid with behavior problems, so they’d probably pump him full of Ritalin and steer him into a STEM track, where he’d get good grades but be constantly miserable.
This doesn’t seem like the formula for a growing, innovative society…
I went to school with a kid who was just a bundle of energy and absolutely fearless. Nice guy but he loved to brawl. He was marginal in school but loved reading Westerns. He runs his own construction company. Had he grown up later, he would have been drugged into a stupor.
I wonder if there is a correlation between kids drugged in elementary school and later heroin use?Replies: @stillCARealist
The college racket in the United States is being driven, I believe, by the myth of upward mobility prevalent in White European culture. Yes, the offspring of rural peasants can become university-educated professionals. A university degree is the “Magic Dirt” perfected for climbing up the social ladder. The genesis of this myth has many vectors.
Post-WWII, the country faced the practical problem of what to do with millions of soldiers being demobilized. Then, genius struck: Put them in college regardless of educational or social background where they could learn skills or otherwise be warehoused until the peacetime economy could absorb them. I was born in the late 1940s while my father studied accounting on the GI Bill. The family lived in converted barracks trucked to the university from a neighboring army base.
So, if dad went to college on the GI Bill, then his offspring had to go to college. The Land Grant universities played a major role in creating these opportunities because many state laws mandated that all high school graduates within the states had to be admitted. It was a question of desire, not dispositions or qualifications. However, the freshman year was used as a filter. Up to 25% of freshmen would not make it through the freshman year. As administrators allegedly said, “State law says we have to admit them … but we don’t have to keep them.” Tuition was $125 a semester.
Then, the Vietnam War made the university track a practical necessity among males who could afford it to avoid the military draft, at least until the government ended student deferments. For those ill-disposed to university life, “Flunkout U’s” proliferated. After they were thrown out of the Land Grant universities for substandard academic performance, parents with means could warehouse their sons in these private resorts until the war was over.
From the post-WWII era through the Vietnam War, women, as a generalization. sought university educations to find husbands with prospects. Many couples, as we did, married while still at the university. It was not uncommon for wives to drop out and work to help finance their husband’s last few years.
Then, affirmative action for minorities hit and destroyed the process of classical learning in a university setting. Standards were continually adjusted downward to make up for the “gaps” between White middle-class students and the new arrivals. Attempts to resolve disparate impacts among ethnic groups meant that the 25% who otherwise would not make it through their freshman year were allowed to stay. In desperation, special ethnic curriculums and athletic dispensations were designed to close the gaps and ameliorate the disparate impacts. The Land Grant universities slowly came to resemble the “Flunkout U’s” of the Vietnam era … standardless party schools (this time for the masses) that no one wanted to leave.
Now, we’ve come full circle. A university degree is no longer the “Magic Dirt” for upward mobility. Everyone it seems has got one … albeit no longer providing evidence of an education.
No might about it. He’s a regular LeBoeuf.
> so All We Need to Do is, uh, give American workers more General Cognitive Skills…
Waiting for
SupermanCRISPRI disagree with you a bit here. Having an apprenticeship type program for the smart kids who want to be in the trades isn’t a bad idea. I do agree that channeling every smart kid into essentially a desk job is a bad idea. A three track system makes sense if the parents and kids get to pick the track and we do away with the nonsense that your life is wasted if you don’t go to college.
I went to school with a kid who was just a bundle of energy and absolutely fearless. Nice guy but he loved to brawl. He was marginal in school but loved reading Westerns. He runs his own construction company. Had he grown up later, he would have been drugged into a stupor.
I wonder if there is a correlation between kids drugged in elementary school and later heroin use?
“The largest problem of skills in the U.S. today isn’t a shortage of young workers with specific competencies. Instead it is a need for more general cognitive skills that give workers the ability to adapt to new circumstances and new jobs. ”
This should come as some relief to the diehard fans of Hillary style immigration: All those wonderful genius minds illegally crossing our borders to the south, or self-immigrating from the Middle East and Africa, will soon be answering our greatest riddles of quantum physics that have stumped generations of dim-witted American PhDs.
My school just won a grant from a major multinational that will outfit us with stuff like a CNC machine, soldering stations, robotics stuff, and so forth- in other words, what shop class should have evolved to in the 1980’s instead of getting gutted out. There’s plenty of cutesy “makerspace” type stuff to it, but some real meat and potatoes, too.
To the WSJ and the other snarkers- what is your alternative? Put up or shut up. Everyone going to college ain’t working. Let’s hear it.
There is that small problem of them committing suicide on a national level. It might be better to have those brains balance the functional with the analytical. Because the analysis portion isn’t so hot right now.
Even after I explained that college was expensive and was basically teetering on open indoctrination of Marxism/atheism, I had a Catholic woman take me to task for considering other options for my eldest daughter besides college.
Wouldn’t I want to have her to have an arts or philosophy degree? (aka Didn’t I love her well enough?” – the line they give you at the vet’s office when they’re trying to sell you something extra you don’t need.)
I don’t see what the point of a degree that would saddle a possible young family with debt (we can’t afford it) and possibly push her out of her (tenuous right now) Christianity forever. It almost did me. Sounds great, pointless debt and no hope. But she would have gotten a degree! She would be well edmucated so it was all worth it. Right.
Same shit new bottle. I've heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don't keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn't work for older workers - lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You're better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can't have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation - nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JackOH, @Polynikes, @ThreeCranes, @kofi anon
In my great lakes state there is a skilled labor shortage. Some of the apprentice programs these companies are offering are very good. In three years time (fully paid) you can come out making what their starting engineers make coming from a four year school.
When I met with this particular company they told me one of their biggest problems was getting the counselors at the local high schools to even mention their apprentice program to any decent graduating seniors.
Unemployment in some upper Midwest states is at 4% or less. These companies have trouble getting average IQ workers who can pass a drug test.
My son yesterday went to buy a pickup from a heavy agriculture equipment mechanic. The mechanic’s skills are enough in demand that he sometimes flies to Europe for emergency repairs. He and his wife are both from families that have been in this line of work for generations. He is retiring from the family business because he is tired of dealing with his worthless nephews. He said that in his day you had to pay for your own training, but now John Deere will fly you out and pay you to learn equipment repair.
To judge by the state of modern academia (and architecture) in America, I would not consider that a bad thing. A lot of senior professors (let alone junior professors) in America shouldn’t have a University job at all.
Waylon, you’re right. Steve has it wrong this time. German apprentice programs are rigorous and intellectually demanding. Becoming a welder in Germany requires hours of classroom work in e.g. the chemistry of heat’s effect on steel, which American welders aren’t expected to master.
A German guy I knew majored in fabrics. He was trained in all aspects of the basic chemistry, mechanical properties of diverse materials, structure of yarns and weaves and wholesale purchasing of fabrics. Sure some of his knowledge would be outdated 30 years down the road, but in what field would that not be a truism?
This WSJ article is more of the usual ignorance-fostering bullshot and rationalizing that advances our decline into cultural and economic incompetence. The argument presented is tantamount to saying that narrow expertise and general reasoning call upon conflicting abilities and cannot exist in the same person.
Please God, spare me from the stupidity and ignorance or (if they know better but lie out of cynical self interest) the outright evil machinations of our Fearless Leaders.
We all love President Trump. President Trump is half German and half Scottish. There is talk of German-style apprenticeships for American workers. The United States is an English-style empire.
The Germans are allowed all sorts of interesting economic diversions because they live under the domination of the English-style American Empire. When the American Empire troops leave Germany, and the EU is exterminated and the Germans go back to the deutsche mark, then we will see what the Germans can do.
President Trump could give us some Adam Smith, Scottish-style supply and demand policies for American workers. President Trump could dramatically reduce the supply of labor at all skill levels to boost wages for workers in the United States. President Trump could increase the demand for prison construction by jailing all employers who hire illegal alien invaders.
The Germans are great. Their apprenticeship idea sounds fun. The American Empire is of English origins. An English solution to wage rate stagnation is to limit the supply of labor to raise wages. President Trump should do it.
The key to the German system is moderate, at best, population growth. They're trying to ramp up the quantity of the inputs and expecting to match the quality of the previous output. Seems unlikely.
The main reason it is unlikely to work in the US is the intransigence of pretty much anyone who would be required to change what they're currently doing to make it work: the schools, the businesses, the bureaucrats, even many of the potential employees. Let's be honest: anybody who currently has a good job can't be bothered to give a wet slap about anybody who doesn't. They may talk about it, but they'll undertake not the slightest risk to do anything about it.Replies: @Mr. Anon
The real key to the German system is………………….Germans.
Same shit new bottle. I've heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don't keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn't work for older workers - lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You're better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can't have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation - nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JackOH, @Polynikes, @ThreeCranes, @kofi anon
“They got rid of shop classes.”
Yeah, those wood and metalworking machines are relatively expensive and lawyers sued school district’s shops out of existence.
When I was young every boy took 7th and 8th grade shop. First we learned “mechanical drawing”, which is definitely a cognitive skill in that it forces the mind to unwrap a 3-D object into it’s x,y,z perspectives–not unlike some SAT and IQ test questions do.
the people most pushing apprentice programs/trade schools are always making sure it is for *other* people’s kids, never theirs.
Yes. Same thing w/ journalists, workforce directors, and elected officials always promoting IT as a great career (while also promoting unending H-1B immigrants driving down IT wages).
A German-style apprenticeship program will not work in the United States due to our misguided “civil-rights” and “affirmative action” laws.
Providing suitable employment for those who show aptitude for a given line of work was derailed by the Supreme Court with its “Griggs v. Duke Power” ruling, which outlawed the use of aptitude tests because of another misguided concept–“disparate impact”. It turns out that “disparate impact” has fueled a “civil-rights quota system”, despite quotas being specifically outlawed by civil-rights law for use in achieving “racial balance”.
The “college degree” has become the “gatekeeper” in which employment decisions are based.
Education reformers sincerely believe apprenticeships are the answer to students who do badly in college or graduate with no employable skills.
However just because someone is not book smart doesn’t mean they are automatically street smart. A lot of people are only good at unskilled and low-skilled labor.
… simple, straightforward Apprenticeships in Appalachia ?
That’s exactly what’s needed …
Apprenticeship programs might be good in some ways, but Americans seem to believe that the more apprentice electricians there are, the more jobs for electricians there will be. Alison Wolfe in one of her books on education cites a common observation in Germany, that the biggest employer of bakers in Germany is the BMW assembly line. Maybe apprenticeship programs are make-work programs for teachers?
Anybody see Ben Sasse on c-span? The young punk “senator” practically brags that every worker will need to constantly be retrained! He proudly proclaims that no society has ever done this “lifetime learning” snake oil before, but we will because we just have to!!!
To make his smugness more grating, he refuses to call DJT “president” and merely refers to “Mr. Trump.” Sasse is the son McCain & Lindsey always wanted.
People in the various environmental industries I work with mention with some astonishment that so many low-skilled jobs in the US are skilled-trades in Germany. Germany’s separation of students between the Habshule and Gynasium career paths in their teens on prevents a large number of kids from drifting around from job to job and aids them in developing economic stability early in life. Despite this, high school guidance counselors in the US regularly contrive secondary educational pathways for students who have spent the previous twelve years displaying that they aren’t college material.
It's almost as if, for some reason, the current generation of young Americans is much dumber than the current generation of young Germans, although I've heard that Merkel is trying to fix that.
And why the hell would any American want to take vocational training in skills like construction and bakery when anybody over the age of 12 knows that anyone in such a job will be rapidly replaced by an illegal foreigner working for half the price?Replies: @nebulafox, @Frau Katze
Not only that, but Anglo countries seem to be obsessed with “upward mobility.”
(Most noticeable in the US, but we’re fast catching up. We just need more of wrong kind of immigrant.)
The mere idea of condemning people to “trades” based on an exam written during the teens!
The differing results by race would merely open up a whole new gap to close.
I would agree with you in general, but I doubt there is anyone at most institutions of higher learning who could do an adequate job of teaching this. What Peter Thiel is doing with convincing kids not to go to college in the first place has far more potential. Young people would be far more likely to take risks early in their careers if they weren’t saddled with the prospect of establishing themselves financially while paying off heavy student debt.
Comments at WSJ: strong disagreement.
Several comments from Germans also. They are baffled by the negative tone of the article.
Apprenticeships are declining rapidly in Germany. This started right about the same time the world changed its mind about this system. It is not entirely clear to me as to why. In fact, the actual question should be why it lasted so long.
It is a holdover from medieval times, based on custom and tradition that should not even exist according to modern economic theory. The best game-theoretical, utility maximizing strategy for the master would be to train nobody, hire unskilled labor and poach skilled workers from competitors. Also, why would any master train additional masters, except his own son? It’s just more competition. Meanwhile, apprentices should theoretically show no loyalty to their master. The system made sense in the local economies with strong communal bonds and where externalities benefited those who produced them.
The legal privileges have been abolished in recent decades and especially in 2004, when Poland joined the EU. Polish business were not required to have the same credentials under common market rules.
:
Germans would do much better outside the empire. Currently, they are the poorest of all Europeans by far. The average Greek, Spaniard and Italian is much wealthier. Mostly, because they own their own homes. So, the system is not working in favor of Germans. An appreciating Deutschmark would allow Germans to consume the fruits of their labor for a change.
The only security threat comes open borders. Defense against neighbouring states is unlikely to be necessary, doable and they could build a nuke in short order anyway. Russia is actually a natural complementary and not competitor of Germany.
The Germans will rebalance their population by removing most of the non-Germans.
I think the real problem is the notion that government can contribute anything. The point of apprenticeship programs is that employers recognize that THEY have to take the lead in recruiting and training employees rather than the state.
We are presently in a situation where employers are coming to realize that if they don’t pick up the ball on training and education nobody will, and that the state and its $1 trillion a year education program is useless.
People in the field have told me that retraining 50 IT professionals is easy. They have 90% of the knowledge to begin with. The problem is the health costs of 50 yos is large. This negates any advantages that maturity and experience bring.
%0+s have to earn their way as “consultants.” In some cases, this is good and other cases it is not.
This from March?
Along the watchtower: The rise and fall of U.S. low-skilled immigration
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2_hansonetal.pdf
It is a long paper and I’m not seeing your explicit conclusion, but here is a sample:
This might have been interpreted as you describe (though it would be a reach IMHO):
There are countervailing pressures for immigration. For example, elites wanting to work in the best environment, but one can argue those who are successful at home have a disincentive to emigrate.
I’m in union heavy infrastructure construction in a major market. About half of our certified welders are foreigners imported from countries with strong apprenticeship traditions. I don’t think that’s precisely what the anti-union, anti-apprenticeship folks were talking about when they said “let the free market sort it out”, but that’s how it worked out, especially with the open borders we have now.
Several comments from Germans also. They are baffled by the negative tone of the article.Replies: @El Dato
Wall Street exceptionalism in action.
The largest problem in the US today is that we DON’T have a ‘shortage’ of workers with specific skills. We also DON’T have a shortage of workers without specific skills.
If you work for a living, the only thing that will get you a wage above the poverty limit, is a ‘shortage’ of workers who have no alternative to working for poverty level wages. Training and skills are not relevant.
Truck drivers in Japan get paid more then engineers in India. Supply and demand, people, supply and demand.
Let the supply of workers be limited, and training will be done by the corporations and employers themselves as needed. That’s how it worked in the 1950’s and 1960’s. It could work again. If only we didn’t have ‘enough’ workers to allow employers to avoid this odious task.
(Most noticeable in the US, but we're fast catching up. We just need more of wrong kind of immigrant.)
The mere idea of condemning people to "trades" based on an exam written during the teens!
The differing results by race would merely open up a whole new gap to close.Replies: @Jimi
That’s a caricature of German system. In Germany even the exam there are opportunities to switch tracks if you show ability.
In NYC most licensed tradesmen are Eastern European, Turkish and South Asian immigrants. Blacks and Latinos are barely seen in these trades.
Readers should check out Kettering University, in Flint Michigan. Kettering offers a unique system in which students spend one semester of several months at school, doing book learning, and then they spend the next period of several months working with a private company. At the end of their schooling, students not only have a degree and in practical field like mechanical engineering, but they also have several years of work experience.
It should be noted that these are not unpaid internships; this is paid employment that students can use to offset their education costs. Many times, the young apprentices are offered jobs at these companies.
It is a holdover from medieval times, based on custom and tradition that should not even exist according to modern economic theory. The best game-theoretical, utility maximizing strategy for the master would be to train nobody, hire unskilled labor and poach skilled workers from competitors. Also, why would any master train additional masters, except his own son? It's just more competition. Meanwhile, apprentices should theoretically show no loyalty to their master. The system made sense in the local economies with strong communal bonds and where externalities benefited those who produced them.
The legal privileges have been abolished in recent decades and especially in 2004, when Poland joined the EU. Polish business were not required to have the same credentials under common market rules.
@Charles Pewitt:
Germans would do much better outside the empire. Currently, they are the poorest of all Europeans by far. The average Greek, Spaniard and Italian is much wealthier. Mostly, because they own their own homes. So, the system is not working in favor of Germans. An appreciating Deutschmark would allow Germans to consume the fruits of their labor for a change.
The only security threat comes open borders. Defense against neighbouring states is unlikely to be necessary, doable and they could build a nuke in short order anyway. Russia is actually a natural complementary and not competitor of Germany.Replies: @Pericles, @Charles Pewitt
So who owns the homes of Germans?
I’ve seen this first-hand. The older workers actually take their alloted time off and leave “early” each day, and at their higher wages, built up over time, the white collar workers in management simply assume they are too expensive and taking jobs needed by new, younger, and cheaper workers … for the social good, don’t you know. Walk around Frankfurt these days, however, and all these jobs are indeed being done by cheaper imported non-native labour, and not very well at that. Germany has one, maybe two decades before total implosion.
Waiting for
SupermanCRISPRReplies: @OpinionatorYes, I think that a–or the–main point of Steve’s post is that inherent cognitive ability is going overlooked in all this.
How do you know it isn’t the people in the trades who are more sensible about immigration?
Well now that The Cold War is over, or is it? We have the pleasure of sending kids to college where they shoehorn Marx into just about everything. I suppose it would be hard to get plumbing apprentices to learn about the downsides of private property and the social justice of giving unearned things to people for some claim of past discrimination that may or may not have happened to one of their ancestors due to your ancestor in some kind of way. Also that whole Carpentry thing is so full of Jesus and hate isn’t it? But will carpenters who apprentice listen to some welfare queen talking about privileges for White people while living well without having done any work in her life?
People talk about things nowadays. The open minded censor themselves and lie through their teeth. Those who are not well indoctrinated in Marxism and PC are liable to tell the Truth and not put up with that crap. Where is the middle ground? There is none. Its not worldviews or ideologies. Its interests. Most Whites are seeing that non-Whites have never really been color blind and believed in fairness now, so this game is over. Guilt by people who are receiving benefits is so stupid its not even worth arguing about. Some people say Civil War is now Inevitable. They’re right you know. You can only push so far before the pushback happens. The further the pendulum swings the further back it will end up.
It always come down to race. It must. Race is how this has been set up. Not noticing the conditions at this point is just willful blindness.
When I met with this particular company they told me one of their biggest problems was getting the counselors at the local high schools to even mention their apprentice program to any decent graduating seniors.Replies: @Opinionator, @Polynikes
Would you mind specifying some of the actual trades?
I went to school with a kid who was just a bundle of energy and absolutely fearless. Nice guy but he loved to brawl. He was marginal in school but loved reading Westerns. He runs his own construction company. Had he grown up later, he would have been drugged into a stupor.
I wonder if there is a correlation between kids drugged in elementary school and later heroin use?Replies: @stillCARealist
Use drugs early. Use drugs later. Makes pretty good sense to me. But I don’t know about heroin. Likely the drugged 9 year olds wind up taking prescription meds later and supplementing with pot and booze.
A German guy I knew majored in fabrics. He was trained in all aspects of the basic chemistry, mechanical properties of diverse materials, structure of yarns and weaves and wholesale purchasing of fabrics. Sure some of his knowledge would be outdated 30 years down the road, but in what field would that not be a truism?
This WSJ article is more of the usual ignorance-fostering bullshot and rationalizing that advances our decline into cultural and economic incompetence. The argument presented is tantamount to saying that narrow expertise and general reasoning call upon conflicting abilities and cannot exist in the same person.
Please God, spare me from the stupidity and ignorance or (if they know better but lie out of cynical self interest) the outright evil machinations of our Fearless Leaders.Replies: @Forbes
Same thought occurred to me. In my experience, most people with that narrow expertise are able to adapt it to other situations and circumstances as they draw on a deep well of experience. General reasoning strikes me as a catch-all for mediocrity–what we used to call, “a little bit of knowledge is dangerous” as they had little experience at any depth.
It probably helps a lot that their Universities aren't private luxury resorts for adolescents like the massive research institution I attended. Just an ancient building with classrooms and no frills is probably a bit easier to convince a company to pay for.Replies: @JohnnyGeo
the US has some university co-op programs like that. See Kettering University (formerly General Motors Institute), for example
What nonsense! The article is wrong from the title. There’re plenty of apprenticeship and certification programs in the US, often with an AS attached if you take some management courses for small business. Florida has them, hell, CA has them right down the street from Hoover.
It’s true we could use better PR on them and more of them, but that doesn’t mean they can’t work here since they obviously do. When you factor in for taxes and cost of living vs. services, states like Florida has Germany beat, which may be why I’m seeing many German immigrants near where I winter there.
It is a holdover from medieval times, based on custom and tradition that should not even exist according to modern economic theory. The best game-theoretical, utility maximizing strategy for the master would be to train nobody, hire unskilled labor and poach skilled workers from competitors. Also, why would any master train additional masters, except his own son? It's just more competition. Meanwhile, apprentices should theoretically show no loyalty to their master. The system made sense in the local economies with strong communal bonds and where externalities benefited those who produced them.
The legal privileges have been abolished in recent decades and especially in 2004, when Poland joined the EU. Polish business were not required to have the same credentials under common market rules.
@Charles Pewitt:
Germans would do much better outside the empire. Currently, they are the poorest of all Europeans by far. The average Greek, Spaniard and Italian is much wealthier. Mostly, because they own their own homes. So, the system is not working in favor of Germans. An appreciating Deutschmark would allow Germans to consume the fruits of their labor for a change.
The only security threat comes open borders. Defense against neighbouring states is unlikely to be necessary, doable and they could build a nuke in short order anyway. Russia is actually a natural complementary and not competitor of Germany.Replies: @Pericles, @Charles Pewitt
The Germans should have a nuclear deterrent just like the Brits and the French do. Once the Krauts have a nuke, they can tell the American Empire to go. Exit ceremonies for the departure of the American Empire will be at Ramstein Air Force Base and will include lots of beer.
The Germans will rebalance their population by removing most of the non-Germans.
I think you are wronging LaBoeuf. He may be a braggart and sometimes immature, but he perseveres through hardships and backs up his bragging at the end.
We all start out as knuckleheads.
Neofeudalism is not the right term. Feudalism involves reciprocal rights and obligations.
Can you point to a good description of how that works? Any anecdotal experience?
Same shit new bottle. I've heard variations of this for over 25 years from those pasty faced, soft handed drones of the WSJ.
Even STEM degrees go obsolete if you don't keep up. 5 years at the most. Worse you will probably be off-shored or replaced H-1B workers within a few more years. Most of them are dead ends career wise because of globalization. Chances of jumping to a different career path because the current one went to Asia is next to zero.
As to why retraining doesn't work for older workers - lets see. Well for starters no one is going to hire a 50 year old man who was just retrained as a certified MSCE for some IT job. He ends up at Wal-Mart. Even if you are in the tech field you will face age discrimination and unemployment after 40 unless you got a niche. Age discrimination is rampant, bosses see older worker = higher wages. Therefore get rid of old worker.
You're better starting off as a plumber or some other trade from the get go.
BTW very few here in the U.S. involved in the trades is going to hire some college grad because most went to college to avoid working with their hands or getting involved in dangerous and dirty work. The public schools did a good job reinforcing the notion that working with your hands is only for stupid, dirty people. They got rid of shop classes. Can't have kids learning something useful.
Besides if you think a elevator repair company or high voltage electrical repair outfit would put Joe College to work fixing elevators or 3KV switch gear after orientation - nope. Maybe after 2 years training as a apprentice. I can think of a dozen trades right off the top of my head where you are not going working on your own until you learn the trade the old way.Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JackOH, @Polynikes, @ThreeCranes, @kofi anon
When I was starting high school, I was disappointed to find out they had recently done away with the auto shop class because a kid had passed out from huffing coolant or something stupid like that. I took wood shop instead. Most of the other students were Mexican, and there was only one other kid in the class who took it for granted he was going to college.
Looking back, the whole experience strikes me as being a pretty good encapsulation of the economic and education systems.
Yeah, those wood and metalworking machines are relatively expensive and lawyers sued school district's shops out of existence.
When I was young every boy took 7th and 8th grade shop. First we learned "mechanical drawing", which is definitely a cognitive skill in that it forces the mind to unwrap a 3-D object into it's x,y,z perspectives--not unlike some SAT and IQ test questions do.Replies: @Jim Don Bob
Yep. I liked Mechanical Drawing. The teacher, Mr. Bowen, always smelled of cigars.
Nowadays you almost need coding skills to repair increasing portions of an automobile.
Come to think of it, one of the Caaah Tawk bruthuhs, Tom Magliozzi, got his degree from MIT. Not that he sounded like it!
Oh, it will result in two “gaps” actually:
1. The first will be the obvious one – NAM’s will be referred to the apprentice programs disproportionately, under the (correct) impression that traditional college academia is not for most of them, and for most will largely be a waste of time and money.
OK, so far, so good.
But the second gap is the killer – because becoming an electrician, or a plumber, or a skilled carpenter, or a master chef, or anything else in the skilled trades requires a higher level of “g”, then many (not all) of the NAM apprentices will wash out, probably sooner rather than later.
Either that, or “certification” by the state will be so watered down as to become meaningless, and prospective customers will avoid NAM grads, generally.
The biggest misconception about the skilled trades is that anyone can do them, and therefore, that’s where the “dumb” kids can go.
Wrong!
First and foremost, a skilled tradesman has to be smart!
Kids who can’t cut it in college because they lack the smarts are not going to make it in skilled trades, either!
Well, there’s hope for Hanushek yet too.
We all start out as knuckleheads.
We are presently in a situation where employers are coming to realize that if they don't pick up the ball on training and education nobody will, and that the state and its $1 trillion a year education program is useless.Replies: @Triumph104
IBM and other companies are partnering with public schools across the country to create P-TECHs or Pathways in Technology Early College High Schools. (LINK) The goal is that participating companies will hire the top graduates. It is a six-year program, grades 9-14, to earn a high school diploma and a two-year associates degree in a STEM field. Some students earn both their high school diploma and associates degree in only four years. The six early grads from P-TECH Brooklyn all received job offers but three chose to go to college instead.
The program seems to target blacks and Hispanics, although a couple of the schools in Colorado are 40% white. Two of the six early grads from P-TECH Brooklyn were Asian, although that school only has a 3% Asian enrollment.
The program is highly inefficient. In order to prevent their school from filling up with whites and Asians, P-TECH Brooklyn does not screen applicants, so they now have an all-day special ed class. Of 111 seniors, only 12 passed the New York State Algebra II Regents exam. So many kids were flunking their college courses that the Brooklyn principal and IBM tried to bully CUNY into passing them anyway until CUNY went public with the emails. (LINK)
P-TECH is also opening a school in Rochester, NY, a city that recently had a 9% high school graduation rate for black males, yes nine.
IBM and the other companies do not fund or run the schools, they just help the district set up the program. P-TECH Brooklyn was the first school to open, 2011-2012, and over 80 schools were scheduled to be open by 2017. There is no proof that they work, but we sure have lots of them.
New York state’s criteria:
Some students earn both their high school diploma and associates degree in only four years. A family friend spent her Junior & Senior years of high school going to college classes entirely on-site at the local community college. She graduated with her high school diploma and AS degree at the same time. However, she's spent the last three years unsuccessfully applying to veterinary school around the country and working in a low-paying job for a vet.Replies: @dr kill
I once again nominate a comment for the covete, golden box.
Sure. You must understand that for something to work, by their lights, is for it to dispossess you and enrich the parasitic rentiers in their quest for neofeudalism.
So, yeah, these contradictory things all work swimmingly for them.
You are right. Friend of mines son got a high voltage lineman apprenticeship. He was easily smart enough to make it through engineering school but I think he’ll enjoy hv power work more. I wanted to follow my Dad into being an A&P mechanic but he forbade it. So I’m an engineer.
I hated school with a passion.
I more or less fell into my job.
I, and most of my peers, will finish paying social security in the next week or two. Many of us will top 200k for the year.
The work can be hard, though not nearly as hard as it was years ago. We are outside in all conditions. I don't think I could face life in a cubicle farm though.Replies: @E. Rekshun, @Opinionator, @dr kill
When I met with this particular company they told me one of their biggest problems was getting the counselors at the local high schools to even mention their apprentice program to any decent graduating seniors.Replies: @Opinionator, @Polynikes
I believe this particular jobs were CNC machinists jobs for a company that did repair work for utility companies.
Unemployment in some upper Midwest states is at 4% or less. These companies have trouble getting average IQ workers who can pass a drug test.
Yes but can you really blame this on policy that seems stupid from the beginning and confirm the warnings of racists are in fact the Truth? What we need is more cowbell. More cowbell will make this good. Only by funding more cowbell can we really get to the part where people stop complaining and expecting results.
People talk about things nowadays. The open minded censor themselves and lie through their teeth. Those who are not well indoctrinated in Marxism and PC are liable to tell the Truth and not put up with that crap. Where is the middle ground? There is none. Its not worldviews or ideologies. Its interests. Most Whites are seeing that non-Whites have never really been color blind and believed in fairness now, so this game is over. Guilt by people who are receiving benefits is so stupid its not even worth arguing about. Some people say Civil War is now Inevitable. They're right you know. You can only push so far before the pushback happens. The further the pendulum swings the further back it will end up.
It always come down to race. It must. Race is how this has been set up. Not noticing the conditions at this point is just willful blindness.Replies: @Opinionator
It always come down to race. It must. Race is how this has been set up.
What do you mean that “race is how this has been set up”?
I imagine, that cynism is an unavoidable product of such – how to call that: Structures – or: Such confusions of contradicting states of mind: Like useful/ not useful, blue-eyed/clear minded// wishful thinking/ grown up.
Cynism then would make for a solution in a situation, where the conditions are such, that no solution can be found.
Cynism as a way to avoid losing ones mind. Cynism as a self-healing strategy in an unsane (part of) society?
Along the watchtower: The rise and fall of U.S. low-skilled immigration
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2_hansonetal.pdf
It is a long paper and I'm not seeing your explicit conclusion, but here is a sample:This might have been interpreted as you describe (though it would be a reach IMHO):There are countervailing pressures for immigration. For example, elites wanting to work in the best environment, but one can argue those who are successful at home have a disincentive to emigrate.Replies: @Dave Pinsen
I don’t think that was it, because they quoted a study directly, but thank you for sharing that.
Meanwhile in the microaggression/hystericallyoversensitive files:
http://www.dw.com/en/berlin-government-to-ban-sexist-advertising-on-billboards/a-39336264
Housework may NOT be executed with great joy by the wife! Verboten!
Magic radiation from billboards causes gender inequality!
1. The first will be the obvious one - NAM's will be referred to the apprentice programs disproportionately, under the (correct) impression that traditional college academia is not for most of them, and for most will largely be a waste of time and money.
OK, so far, so good.
But the second gap is the killer - because becoming an electrician, or a plumber, or a skilled carpenter, or a master chef, or anything else in the skilled trades requires a higher level of "g", then many (not all) of the NAM apprentices will wash out, probably sooner rather than later.
Either that, or "certification" by the state will be so watered down as to become meaningless, and prospective customers will avoid NAM grads, generally.
The biggest misconception about the skilled trades is that anyone can do them, and therefore, that's where the "dumb" kids can go.
Wrong!
First and foremost, a skilled tradesman has to be smart!
Kids who can't cut it in college because they lack the smarts are not going to make it in skilled trades, either!Replies: @Dust
About the trades, you’ve nailed it. I chose to work as a craftsman and for 40 years have designed and made furniture. (I graduated college in the 60s). Most of the tradesmen I know are intelligent, creative, and highly skilled because their normal workdays require lots of problem-solving. Not only do they analyze, assess, and decide on the right course of action for a job, but must, with their manual dexterity, make it all work. The trades demand that true synthesis of mind and body. Most of my friends could have succeeded at jobs in the “Professional World”. (My guess is that they never tried because the trades offered the kind of independence that suits their “rugged individualist” qualities.) Most “Professionals”, I fear, have neither the talent, nor the physical makeup to make a successful switch to the trades
I know "degreed" engineers who cannot perform basic tasks, such as changing a car tire or wiring a basic electrical circuit. For shame...
The "downside" to my status, the lack of a "degree", has limited my financial advancement, as employers want to see that "piece of paper" while ignoring and marginalizing true ability. It's their loss, I guess...Replies: @Opinionator
I’m always reluctant to post on this subject, but here goes. I’m a lineman. I was a national merit semifinalist many years ago.
I hated school with a passion.
I more or less fell into my job.
I, and most of my peers, will finish paying social security in the next week or two. Many of us will top 200k for the year.
The work can be hard, though not nearly as hard as it was years ago. We are outside in all conditions. I don’t think I could face life in a cubicle farm though.
I think I remember Danny Divito asking Travolta ‘What’s my motivation?’ in one of the Elmore Leonard movies.
In my opinion, the current American male lacks motivation. I prefer positive motivators in my life, but the negative motivators have been more successful at keeping me moving. Participation awards are nice, but a few days of fear or hunger would instantly restore motivation in even the slowest American. Fear and hunger are missing in the First World.
I question whether the problem is the mental agility of workers, rather our dilemma stems from the laughable thinking process of our so-called leaders, the CIA and their Ivy League banker’s sons being the most obvious illustration. Maybe if the buffoons who run our culture were to cease punishing youth for pointing out their mistakes, we’d have more thinkers and less ass-kissers.
You are correct. I am a non-degreed engineer, who despite not having the “credentials”, can run circles around many “degreed” engineers. Having worked in the electrical and mechanical trades for quite some time, I have both the logical and analytical prowess along with the ability to “make things work”, from conceptualizing and designing as well as putting the physical elements into place.
I know “degreed” engineers who cannot perform basic tasks, such as changing a car tire or wiring a basic electrical circuit. For shame…
The “downside” to my status, the lack of a “degree”, has limited my financial advancement, as employers want to see that “piece of paper” while ignoring and marginalizing true ability. It’s their loss, I guess…
I hated school with a passion.
I more or less fell into my job.
I, and most of my peers, will finish paying social security in the next week or two. Many of us will top 200k for the year.
The work can be hard, though not nearly as hard as it was years ago. We are outside in all conditions. I don't think I could face life in a cubicle farm though.Replies: @E. Rekshun, @Opinionator, @dr kill
Many of us will top 200k for the year.
Thanks for posting. Does $200K include a lot of overtime? What are the requirements to become a “lineman”? What is starting pay and, say, after 10 years, 20 years? Does the pay vary significantly be region of the country? Does a “lineman” also drive the big electric company truck? Who are the major employers of “linemen”?
That's pretty typical for larger utilities.
Even moderate overtime gets you to 150 pretty quickly.
You need to be physically fit, have a head for heights, be willing to be outdoors.
There are a lot of well compensated trades in the utility industry.
Substation mechanic, cable splicer, etc.
And yes, we drive those big trucks around.
The program seems to target blacks and Hispanics…The program is highly inefficient. In order to prevent their school from filling up with whites and Asians, P-TECH Brooklyn does not screen applicants, so they now have an all-day special ed class. Of 111 seniors, only 12 passed the New York State Algebra II Regents exam. So many kids were flunking their college courses that the Brooklyn principal and IBM tried to bully CUNY into passing them anyway until CUNY went public with the emails…P-TECH is also opening a school in Rochester, NY, a city that recently had a 9% high school graduation rate for black males, yes nine.
This program seems merely another “alternative” school for delinquents. I can’t imagine IBM actually hiring anyone from this program when they can pick and choose from a much better pool elsewhere. Why would IBM want to hire or support a program for delinquents? I guess it’s probably just virtue signaling or some pet project of some IBM HR person.
Some students earn both their high school diploma and associates degree in only four years.
A family friend spent her Junior & Senior years of high school going to college classes entirely on-site at the local community college. She graduated with her high school diploma and AS degree at the same time. However, she’s spent the last three years unsuccessfully applying to veterinary school around the country and working in a low-paying job for a vet.
I hated school with a passion.
I more or less fell into my job.
I, and most of my peers, will finish paying social security in the next week or two. Many of us will top 200k for the year.
The work can be hard, though not nearly as hard as it was years ago. We are outside in all conditions. I don't think I could face life in a cubicle farm though.Replies: @E. Rekshun, @Opinionator, @dr kill
Why are you reluctant to post about it?
I hated school with a passion.
I more or less fell into my job.
I, and most of my peers, will finish paying social security in the next week or two. Many of us will top 200k for the year.
The work can be hard, though not nearly as hard as it was years ago. We are outside in all conditions. I don't think I could face life in a cubicle farm though.Replies: @E. Rekshun, @Opinionator, @dr kill
Call it what you will, but don’ t call it critical thinking, the W2 slaves here don’t like that.
Some students earn both their high school diploma and associates degree in only four years. A family friend spent her Junior & Senior years of high school going to college classes entirely on-site at the local community college. She graduated with her high school diploma and AS degree at the same time. However, she's spent the last three years unsuccessfully applying to veterinary school around the country and working in a low-paying job for a vet.Replies: @dr kill
Tell your girlfriend that she should be glad not to be accepted at a SVM. The kids now getting out I see are making the same I made back in 1985. Being a vet is a terrible, low-paying job. But since 95 percent of the new grads are women, no one cares.
I’ve been commenting here for years,albeit sparingly, and I’m pretty sure a little googling could put a name to me. I’d rather stay under the radar.
I had my dream job in the 80’s in the Merchant Marine . But that industry is too vulnerable to every tremor in the economy except war . I was working for Exxon Shipping Co. and afraid to buy a new car . I was single and responsible for no one but myself and I took my savings and went to nursing school . RN’s have job security , there will always be work for an RN somewhere . I was born in 1950 , I would guess that the majority of the commenters here are within 10 years of my age . We and our parents despite the depression have had the best of this country , they did well and many of our generation did better . I myself despite my best efforts have done okay. Some might think that we lived through a Golden Age . The US has really had many “Golden Ages” . But the “Golden Ages” are all over now . I remember in the 80’s reading an article in what we all recognize now as the propaganda spewing MSM about what great opportunities workers had in that they could change careers 2-4 times during their working life . They actually presented being laid off in middle age with a family , a mortgage and a car payment among all the other burdens as a liberating opportunity . Not the terrifying catastrophe that it was .
Perhaps due to my unique family history I was fortunate enough to never put my faith in the false promise of stability and the empty promises of “loved ones” . In England we had a dog , a Boxer , Sweetie Pie , Fool that I was at 5 years old I thought she was a member of the family . When my oldman got transferred back to the states they found her a “good home” . Some years later in Venezuela we had a Parrot , I know it was “just” a bird , but to me in my naivete I thought of it as a living thing with an inner life not much different from my own . When we left Venezuela the cock suckers found her a “good home” . I was only 7 or 8 by then and you can’t really blame me for not seeing the pattern . Those two pieces of s**t true to their nature slipped away in the night and I awoke alone to the dying embers of the campfire , the farce that our “family” had been . They left it to my poor Grandmother to tell me that they had found a “good home” for me . They did do me one favor though , while many if not most of you will grieve if not be devastated by the death of your loving parents . I myself will be no more troubled by the death of my sire and my dam than I am of the news of a blizzard in the Mid West . I grieved over my two little friends when they died . But my parents ? Stubbing my toe is a greater tragedy .
Okay.
I know "degreed" engineers who cannot perform basic tasks, such as changing a car tire or wiring a basic electrical circuit. For shame...
The "downside" to my status, the lack of a "degree", has limited my financial advancement, as employers want to see that "piece of paper" while ignoring and marginalizing true ability. It's their loss, I guess...Replies: @Opinionator
How hard would it be to earn the additional credits to get the degree?
I came up in the day when performance and ability was recognized. I attended a proprietary school that did not offer degrees, but could turn out fully competent electrical engineers in two years. In fact, major corporations actively sought out "graduates" of this institution in lieu of a degree.
This institution was not recognized as a valid "institution of higher learning", and as such, NONE of the knowledge (equivalent to credits) was transferable.
Help Wanted newspaper ads of the day would actually mention the name of this institution, recognizing that engineers from this school would "hit the ground running".
Agreed. There is a glaring disconnect between the lauding of “critical thinking” and the punishing of anyone who actually dares to notice what happens around them, think critically, and draw obvious conclusions.
Sorry, I thought I replied to you the other day. Base salary after a 4 year apprenticeship is 95 k. Time and a half after 8 hours, double time on Sunday.
That’s pretty typical for larger utilities.
Even moderate overtime gets you to 150 pretty quickly.
You need to be physically fit, have a head for heights, be willing to be outdoors.
There are a lot of well compensated trades in the utility industry.
Substation mechanic, cable splicer, etc.
And yes, we drive those big trucks around.
I am very close to retirement…
I came up in the day when performance and ability was recognized. I attended a proprietary school that did not offer degrees, but could turn out fully competent electrical engineers in two years. In fact, major corporations actively sought out “graduates” of this institution in lieu of a degree.
This institution was not recognized as a valid “institution of higher learning”, and as such, NONE of the knowledge (equivalent to credits) was transferable.
Help Wanted newspaper ads of the day would actually mention the name of this institution, recognizing that engineers from this school would “hit the ground running”.