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Where Do Stuyvesant HS Grads vs. Horace Mann Prep Grads Go to College?
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From a Twitter thread by Penn criminologist Aaron Chalfin:

How admissions to top universities in the US really works as revealed by a simple comparison between one of NYC’s top public high schools (Stuyvesant HS) and one of NYC’s top private high schools (Horace Mann School). A short thread with some basic descriptive statistics 👇👇
5:10 AM · Nov 26, 2022

Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

At @StuyNY, a public magnet school where nearly half of students qualify for NYC’s free or reduced price lunch program (<$50K for a family of 4 with NYC cost-of-living), the middle 50% of SAT scores are 1490-1560. See: https://stuy.enschool.org/ourpages/auto/2013/3/7/37096823/Class%20of%202023%20profile%20FINAL_compressed.pdf?rnd=1663685856736

At @HMSchool, a private school where tuition is $60k/year (and where 85% of families pay the full tuition cost), the middle 50% of SAT scores (summing the interquartile ranges for each section) are 1380-1540. See: https://resources.finalsite.net/images/v1637330416/horacemann/fw2ksubhm06y80wxdltf/HMSchoolProfile2022-23FINAL.pdf

At Stuyvesant HS, the top college destinations are NYU, SUNY Stony Brook, CUNY-Hunter College and SUNY Binghamton. See: https://tophscollege.blogspot.com/2021/09/stuyvesant-class-of-2019-matriculations.html

Top 20:

Stuyvesant High School Classes of 2016-2019 Matriculations

1) NYU – 305
2) SUNY, Stony Brook – 277
3) CUNY, Hunter – 205
4) SUNY, Binghamton – 199
5) Cornell – 193
6) CUNY, Baruch – 135
7) UChicago – 100
8) SUNY, Buffalo – 89
9) Boston U – 84
10) Fordham – 70
11) Michigan* – 66 to 70
12) Carnegie Mellon – 64
13) Rensselaer Polytechnic – 52
14) St. Johns – 51
15) MIT – 42
16) Harvard – 41
17) CUNY, City* – 38 to 42
18) RIT – 37
19) Yale – 35
20) Princeton – 34

8.5 are public, with most in New York State and giving New York residents a sizable tuition break. #1 NYU is private, as is #7 U. of Chicago. #5 Cornell is mostly private.

At the Horace Mann School, more than 1/3 of students are admitted to an Ivy League university and the top college destinations are Cornell, U Chicago, Columbia and Georgetown. See:
horacemann.org
Class of 2022 …

Top 20:

16 to Cornell University
16 to University of Chicago
11 to Columbia University
8 to Georgetown University
6 to New York University
6 to University of Michigan
6 to University of Pennsylvania
5 to Brown University
5 to Tufts University
4 to Emory University
4 to Princeton University
4 to Yale University
3 to Barnard College
3 to Colby College
3 to Duke University
3 to Indiana University
3 to Northwestern University
3 to University of Southern California
3 to Washington University in St. Louis
3 to Wesleyan University

18.5 of the top 20 are private colleges. Cornell has public parts, but Horace Mann grads probably aren’t going to attend the taxpayer-supported Ag School at Cornell. The only public college out of the top 20 is Indiana U. of all places in Bloomington.

Post-script: Since many have wondered about whether this is driven by applicant preferences: At HM, 35% of the class attends an Ivy League university (+ Chicago, Stanford, MIT). At Stuy, the most recent figure is 18%. …

Could some of this be explained to differences in the ability to pay tuition at private colleges? Yes, probably. But consider that nearly all top private colleges are need blind. At Cornell, e.g., the average size of a tuition grant is ~ $43K, 70% of the cost of tuition.

For reference, at SUNY where tuition is $17K, the average tuition grant was $13K. This means that for a qualifying student, Cornell will cost approximately $18K/year and SUNY will cost $4k/year. So the prices are different but not nearly as different as the sticker prices.

The purpose of this thread is not to argue that the SAT exam should be the sole arbiter of college success. But is it right that the Horace Mann students have so much more to offer top colleges than the students who attended public school? Maybe. But not a case I’d want to make.

The comparison is striking. Even among kids who uniformly score in the top 1-3% on national exams, wealthy families have established a unique means to convert merit into admissions success, therefore transmitting this particular type of cultural capital to their children. …

Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

You can also see the white upper class kids’ custom of going to college far from home despite the unlikelihood that as an affluent New Yorker you’ll wind up living in Michigan or Tennessee, so you won’t benefit as much from your college friends network when you return to NYC. Washington U. in St. Louis is a fine college, but how likely is a NYC rich kid going to wind up in the St. Louis region hanging out with all your St. Louis-oriented friends? Wealthy white kids from big cities often have a self-defeating case of wanderlust when it comes to picking a college.

In contrast, the mostly Asian and upwardly mobile working class kids at Stuyvesant tend to go to college close to New York, so they can benefit from family and friends networks.

So, are we so sure that Stuyvesant grads, who tend to come from calculating and unsentimental families, are getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop compared to Horace Mann grads?

 
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  1. Hey guys, you remember that time when Jews in the Ivy league held a quota on Asian admits steady at 17% (less than half of the WASP 1920’s quota for Jews), then put Lori Laughlin in jail for bribing her bimbo daughter into USC?

    • LOL: Twinkie, Russ
  2. For the bulk of Americans, that $14,000 a year adds up over a couple of kids.

    • Replies: @Spangel226
    @Redneck farmer

    Agree. It’s absurd to downplay the price difference between a prestigious private university and a state school. For Stuyvesant grads, it seems like shelling out is worth it for the ivies but not worth it for a school which is merely top tier such as USC.

    Are they right? My guess is yes. Those students have enough on the ball so that they will get where they need to in life while going to a state school rather than a wash u. I don’t think it’s that they want to benefit from the local network. It’s that they plan to go to grad school and the prestige of the grad school will determine their career prospects more than the undergrad institute they attended. With top grades and test scores, they can get into the best law schools and med schools even when coming from a state school. It might be marginally easier to get into a top grad program from a private university ranked 15-30 than suny, but that difference is probably very small and not worth paying for for a family of modest income.

    And while top schools are often need blind, many kids at Stuyvesant aren’t poor. They are just middle income, which doesn’t get them a full tuition break.

    Replies: @Recently Based

  3. Wash. U. pretty well-rep’d in NYC medical circles, less certain about undergrads, certainly not law or business schools.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @ambercat

    My sister went to Wash U. for Physical Therapy, the basic degree for which was a baccalaureate then. (Now it's a professsional Doctorate; in some period in between a Master's I think.) Up there with Harvard and Johns Hopkins for Medicine. OK undergrad and Law.

  4. If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Hypnotoad666

    Especially non-athletes who come from middle class families.

    , @ic1000
    @Hypnotoad666

    > If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    I read that Aaron Chalfin thread (Link, again). From my follows etc., the algorithm guessed I'd find the topic of interest, and I did.

    Chalfin comes across as smart, diligent, and numerate in an iStevey way. When other smart people wrote in with reasoned counterpoints, he replied. So in multiple ways, this is Twitter living up to its potential.

    Notably, Chalfin made no mention of the racial or ethnic breakdown of either student body. When a correspondent posted some numbers, his reply was along the lines of "interesting". Elephant in the room, indeed.

    One salient fact is that only a low-single-digit percentage (1%?) of either school is black. So this natural experiment is not another instance of the first-order effects of the massive thumb on the scale in favor of that racial group.

    Perhaps if anti-Asian bias in university admissions had recently been in the news, Chalfin would have considered that [/sarc].

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines. E.g. where did Horace Mann's (likely upper class) East Asians go, cf. where Stuyvesant's (working class?) counterparts went?

    Beyond the practical and sensible 'network effects' Steve discusses, there are obvious advantages for a strapped family to have a child stay nearby. LIRR train fare to Stony Brook costs less than a flight to Chicago. And I suspect a significant plurality of Stuyvesant's grads continue to live at home to save money.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Steve Sailer

    , @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    , @Hibernian
    @Hypnotoad666

    At some point employers will say, I don't want those Ivy Leaguers, and I'm sure a bunch already have.

  5. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    I really loved Avatar and saw it three times in the theater (much of what I liked was the great use of 3D and animation, but I thought the overall story was fine too).

    I just watched the trailers for Avatar 2. Thoughts:

    — The first one was slightly annoying with its Carlos Castanedaesque naturalistic mysticism and anti-colonialism vibe, but this new one seems to be pushing it much further. I hope it isn’t intolerably woke and Mary Sue girlbossy.

    — The for-the-time stunning special effects and animation now look like something between a Pixar film and a Marvel movie. Hmmm. The intervening years (decades?) have allowed others to catch up while Cameron has not been able to push much more ahead in this area.

    — Hair! The “natives” have dreadlocks and Mohawks. Will this become an issue? Did Cameron purchase licenses to use these hairstyles from the Elders of Blackdom and the Feather Indian Sodality? Also, although the appropriation of indiginous images and tropes raised eyebrows in the first film, wokeness was still a baby back then. What will the reaction today be?

    — Nobody is fat in Avatar land. Isn’t this sizeist? With animation couldn’t they have fat characters flying around and doing backflips just like the skinny characters? Cameron should have trolled us with a “leaked” sequence with fat characters that gets “left on the cutting room floor” in the final release. Imagine the press and the social media attention that would provoke.

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    @Anon

    O/T to your O/T: I was in Cabela's with Mrs. Prude yesterday looking for size 32-30 pants. Lots of 42-30. Found some 50-30. Good Lord! Both Prudes could fit in those! Sorry, Stan Adams, but 50-30 is not a good thing.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    , @Muggles
    @Anon

    "The Woke is stronger in you now!" sez Cameron. Avatar II sounds like desperation.

    Disney is in chaos due to Iger's bullying and something like $8 billion (!) in accumulated streaming losses there since inception. Now he's back in the saddle.

    Normally the sequels deteriorate quickly in succession. This seems par for the course...

    Since culture appears to be past Peak Woke, Disney is just milking this purple (cash) cow for bucks.

    When the first film has a novel characteristic it can attract large appreciative audiences. The second, more of the same, reduces audiences and often disappoints them.

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable. Unlike EVs, no government subsidies (so far).

    The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.

    It is a particularly bad time for streaming since the Woke mania for talent-less women and non Whites is being pushed far beyond their capabilities for Hollywood brownie points. These projects often result in smaller audiences. Few pay monthly streaming fees merely to see them.

    The two part (so far) Wakanda films are an exception since Blacks! have responded with Tyler Perry enthusiasm. But they won't support streaming TV to any great degree. Even a Wakanda streamed series wouldn't generate much monthly revenue.

    What is to be done with Disney's (and others) multi billion dollar inventory of dead streaming content? Sooner or later to recoup costs, streaming will have large tiers of ad sponsored non-pay free streaming channels. And perhaps eventually over-the-air broadcast ad TV stations showing this content.

    Shareholders in a relatively free market will not sustain billions in product losses for very long.

    Big name directors/creators are only as valuable as their last successful project.

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse, @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

  6. Here is an interview of Caroline Ellison of Alameda Research fame in her High School newspaper. She is something of an expert in college entrance matters.

    https://thetigerinsidercom.wordpress.com/2018/09/29/college-is-pretty-great-caroline-ellison-12/

    • Replies: @Dan Kurt
    @Anon55uu

    Seeing her visage in the interview I now can say that I have seen the epitome of a 1 out of 10 or is it a 0.5 out 10. Unlike Elizabeth Holmes who given her score 6 out of 10 in the looks department managed to get from the judge about 11 years to serve, Caroline Ellison is apt to get a juicy two century terms served back to back as a service to the vanity of America's trans women by keeping her out of the dating pool.

    Dan Kurt

  7. So, are we so sure that Stuyvesant grads, who tend to come from calculating and unsentimental families, are getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop compared to Horace Mann grads?

    Probably Horace Mann grads will be better writers, hence better prepared for legal, publishing, and political careers. I suspect the Ivy Leagues prefer the verbally to the mathematically gifted, although they are happy to admit top performers in any academic area.

  8. For fun here is a recent Hollywood depiction of the demographics of not-Stuyvesant.

    Maybe having Peter go to school with lots of East Asians would have led to uncomfortable thoughts being awakened in the audiences heads, instead he goes to a school that looks half like Abercombie and Fitch (Old school, it seems like they were averse to casting anything but attractive whites) and half general masses of non-whites (Who were not specifically cast for being attractive it seems) none of whom seems to fit any pattern for a ‘gifted’ person or seems very intellectual at all.

    Meanwhile they remade Gossip Girl recently about the lives of super rich girls who go to school in Manhattan. While I think Steve made note of it’s Abercrombie and Fitch style attractive WASP demographics in the original being at least 30 years out of date at the time with none of the characters being Jewish, the new one seeks to rectify this! By having a more diverse set of goys that is even more unrealistic but simultaneously pointing to the public school demographics in NYC to justify their decision as not being non-white enough!

    Here is the new cast above and the old one below, neither of which looks anything like the very Jewish schools that inspired their setting.

    For reference NYT science writer Donald McNeil was cancelled by the real ‘Gossip Girls’ in 2021 from the actual privileged Jewish Manhattan high schools the show is based upon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_G._McNeil_Jr.#Dismissal_from_The_New_York_Times

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Altai

    It seems to me that Altai is addressing the central dichotomy here: Asian vs. Jewish higher ed outcomes. Stuyvesant is full of exam-cramming Asians, although many students appear to be genuinely smart (42 going to MIT! 41 to Harvard! and that's only acceptances by the students, not total admissions by the schools). I've only known a small number of Horace Mann alumni, but they were all Jewish, so I'm naively assuming that the students there are probably as Jewish as Stuyvesant students are Asian. Critically, though, one thing that is probably irrelevant to this story is the preferences of white (i.e., "goyim"/gentile) students. To frame this as white preferences vs. Asian preferences really misses the point; Hayven Moynihan has at most a supporting role in this story.

    "The comparison is striking. Even among kids who uniformly score in the top 1-3% on national exams, wealthy families have established a unique means to convert merit into admissions success, therefore transmitting this particular type of cultural capital to their children."

    Beyond ignoring the ethnic story here, this guy also misstates the relative statuses of these students. When you're talking about going to Cambridge, MA for college, you might as well save your application fee if you only scored in the 97th percentile on the SAT. However, if you want to go to St. Louis, then WashU is right up your alley.

    The simplest story here (standard uncertainty caveats apply, of course) is
    Stuyvesant = lots of mildly-intelligent exam-crammers who go to NYC-area colleges, with a few truly intelligent students mixed in who go to big name schools, both groups being mostly Asian
    Horace Mann = kids who are about as smart as the Stuy exam-crammers, but who read real books instead of study guides, and whose family money and/or connections will often end up determining which fly-over school they'll go to (WashU, Indiana, and Northwestern are poster children for this) instead of SUNY Stony Brook

    Replies: @Altai, @Alden

  9. Michigan is a public university, too.

    How many of the HM kids are going back to their parent’s home state or alma mater? My parents and uncle/aunt fled NC in the 40s and 50s, settling in DC and Wilmington suburbs, but all seven of their children went to college in NC despite few close relatives left in the state. Only one is still in her home state this century.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Ralph L

    IU, Michigan, Wisconsin all seem to have pretty strong East Coast contingents. I think some of it is kids returning to where their parents are originally from, but part of it is that some people would rather go for the huge college town experience rather than the small liberal arts experience that is more common in the East. Bloomington, Madison and Anne Arbor are all pretty nice small cities with big picturesque campuses and massive sports and Greek traditions. The East Coast natives I know that went to Big Ten schools like these are really proud and loyal alumni, and obviously these schools' development departments probably work pretty hard to make sure the wildly successful people on the coasts do their part to donate to their alma mater.

    Replies: @guest007, @Deckin

    , @OFWHAP
    @Ralph L

    It's probably the sticker price that "Public Ivies" such as Michigan charge out-of-state students that makes it seem as if it were a private school.

  10. @Anon
    OT

    I really loved Avatar and saw it three times in the theater (much of what I liked was the great use of 3D and animation, but I thought the overall story was fine too).

    I just watched the trailers for Avatar 2. Thoughts:

    -- The first one was slightly annoying with its Carlos Castanedaesque naturalistic mysticism and anti-colonialism vibe, but this new one seems to be pushing it much further. I hope it isn't intolerably woke and Mary Sue girlbossy.

    -- The for-the-time stunning special effects and animation now look like something between a Pixar film and a Marvel movie. Hmmm. The intervening years (decades?) have allowed others to catch up while Cameron has not been able to push much more ahead in this area.

    -- Hair! The "natives" have dreadlocks and Mohawks. Will this become an issue? Did Cameron purchase licenses to use these hairstyles from the Elders of Blackdom and the Feather Indian Sodality? Also, although the appropriation of indiginous images and tropes raised eyebrows in the first film, wokeness was still a baby back then. What will the reaction today be?

    -- Nobody is fat in Avatar land. Isn't this sizeist? With animation couldn't they have fat characters flying around and doing backflips just like the skinny characters? Cameron should have trolled us with a "leaked" sequence with fat characters that gets "left on the cutting room floor" in the final release. Imagine the press and the social media attention that would provoke.

    Replies: @Old Prude, @Muggles

    O/T to your O/T: I was in Cabela’s with Mrs. Prude yesterday looking for size 32-30 pants. Lots of 42-30. Found some 50-30. Good Lord! Both Prudes could fit in those! Sorry, Stan Adams, but 50-30 is not a good thing.

    • LOL: Stan Adams
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Old Prude

    My local Walmart here in flyover country has not only XL, but 2XL and 3XL sizes in clothes, and customers that need them. Slim people are a rarity. Even the kids are fat.

  11. So, are we so sure that Stuyvesant grads, who tend to come from calculating and unsentimental families, are getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop compared to Horace Mann grads?

    I would say it reflects racial-cultural stereotypes: whites are adventurous & individualistic, while Asians are risk-averse & collectivist.

  12. Here’s the letters sent to Judge Davila in San Jose concerning the sentencing of former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes after her conviction of several counts of fraud.

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.327949/gov.uscourts.cand.327949.1642.3.pdf

    Judging by the letters, America’s upper class isn’t very impressive. The letters are frequently poorly written and unprofessional in presentation. They’re letters to a judge, not text messages to a friend.

    The letters are representative of a class of people who, once admitted to a prestigious university, are overflowing with an outrageous sense of entitlement. After Holmes played her family network, Stanford, and feminist cards to recruit and deceive investors and various luminaries in the nomenklatura, and committed egregious fraud that in some cases affected the medical treatment of unsuspecting patients, all that was left were appeals concerning Ms. Holmes from members of that class to maudlin self-pity. Holmes is portrayed as saint, victim, and martyr sacrificed on the altar of small-minded misogyny.

    I wonder if these compassionate souls like Cory Booker plan on writing to judges and DOJ officials about the cruel and unusual treatment of the J6 political prisoners?

    Finally, what’s the deal with vegans and corporate fraud?

    • Replies: @Mr. Peabody
    @Voltarde

    Well... Hitler was a vegan.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

  13. @Redneck farmer
    For the bulk of Americans, that $14,000 a year adds up over a couple of kids.

    Replies: @Spangel226

    Agree. It’s absurd to downplay the price difference between a prestigious private university and a state school. For Stuyvesant grads, it seems like shelling out is worth it for the ivies but not worth it for a school which is merely top tier such as USC.

    Are they right? My guess is yes. Those students have enough on the ball so that they will get where they need to in life while going to a state school rather than a wash u. I don’t think it’s that they want to benefit from the local network. It’s that they plan to go to grad school and the prestige of the grad school will determine their career prospects more than the undergrad institute they attended. With top grades and test scores, they can get into the best law schools and med schools even when coming from a state school. It might be marginally easier to get into a top grad program from a private university ranked 15-30 than suny, but that difference is probably very small and not worth paying for for a family of modest income.

    And while top schools are often need blind, many kids at Stuyvesant aren’t poor. They are just middle income, which doesn’t get them a full tuition break.

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Spangel226

    As always, there's elite and there's elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford's tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel226, @International Jew, @Alden

  14. Chicago is private, but they give a lot of merit scholarship money to kids with high test scores.

  15. There is an ‘almost’ open global market to mathematical talent into the US that will ensure Stuyvesant grads don’t enjoy it too much compared to 1930s-1960s. In contrast, verbal talent is protected against global competition.

  16. Indiana is almost certainly on the Horace Mann list due to its School of Music. Which makes it kind of surprising that Rochester isn’t there, but maybe they don’t have anyone THAT good at music…

  17. While we’re on the topic of elite high schools and college admissions, does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?

    Is it simply that they view test prep as a multi year exercise, starting with Kumon in 5th grade and culminating with the SAT junior year in HS, having started prepping for the PSAT in 7th grade?

    While white parents see the PSAT prep as a maximum of 3 months of preparation immediately before taking it?

    Anyone have any good info on precisely what Asians do differently than whites when it comes to this? And why whites are or aren’t imitating such methods?

    • Replies: @Inverness
    @MagyarDiak

    White dads want their sons to be good at sports, and their daughters to win beauty pageants.

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @MagyarDiak


    does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?
     
    This was extensively discussed on iSteve here recently. The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn't discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an "aptitude" test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.

    Thing is, competitive colleges pay close attention to what predicts success, so they noticed the SAT losing much if not most of its predictive value and adjusted their admissions process. As a for instance, the ACT wasn't even accepted by MIT when I applied in the late 1970s. By 2000 plus or minus it noticed the ACT had better predictive value than the SAT. As I recall the ACT in the 1970s was a combined aptitude and achievement test, and cheaper to take than the SAT and a few of its org's achievement tests. Perfectly fine for mid-difficultly state schools that liked it back then.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @MagyarJoDiak

    , @Jack D
    @MagyarDiak

    White people admire "naturals" - you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing. Overpreparing, studying too much or trying too hard is seen as a negative - "nerdy". You are supposed to be "well rounded" so if you are spending too much time in cram school instead of playing sports (even though you have zero chance of being a professional athlete) that's bad.

    The Asian cultural view puts a big emphasis on preparation - everyone has the ability to do math or whatever, so if you aren't doing well it must be because you aren't trying hard enough and should do some more problem sets.

    Neither view is really ideal but it's hard to argue with the results that Asians are getting.

    Replies: @Alden, @TelfoedJohn

  18. @Voltarde
    Here's the letters sent to Judge Davila in San Jose concerning the sentencing of former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes after her conviction of several counts of fraud.

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.327949/gov.uscourts.cand.327949.1642.3.pdf

    Judging by the letters, America's upper class isn't very impressive. The letters are frequently poorly written and unprofessional in presentation. They're letters to a judge, not text messages to a friend.

    The letters are representative of a class of people who, once admitted to a prestigious university, are overflowing with an outrageous sense of entitlement. After Holmes played her family network, Stanford, and feminist cards to recruit and deceive investors and various luminaries in the nomenklatura, and committed egregious fraud that in some cases affected the medical treatment of unsuspecting patients, all that was left were appeals concerning Ms. Holmes from members of that class to maudlin self-pity. Holmes is portrayed as saint, victim, and martyr sacrificed on the altar of small-minded misogyny.

    I wonder if these compassionate souls like Cory Booker plan on writing to judges and DOJ officials about the cruel and unusual treatment of the J6 political prisoners?

    Finally, what's the deal with vegans and corporate fraud?

    Replies: @Mr. Peabody

    Well… Hitler was a vegan.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Mr. Peabody


    "Well… Hitler was a vegan."
     
    Vegetarian, not vegan.
  19. A few observations about this:

    1. Just as with the Horace Mann example, about 1/3 of the class at leading prep schools go to what the tweeter calls Ivy+ (Ivy League university + Chicago, Stanford, MIT). This is like a law of nature that I have seen at all these schools. One interesting thing about this is that by the iron laws of arithmetic, 2 out of 3 kids who’s parents went through enormous gyrations to get and keep them in these schools do not.

    2. There’s Ivy League and there’s Ivy League. Going to Cornell, for example, is not anything like the same thing as going to Yale. I scraped the data for both high schools, and in both cases, about 5 – 6% of the class went to the tippy-top colleges of HYPSM.

    3. If you’re in the tier of “can’t get into Harvard, but actually did quite well in high school” and you are from a family that sent you to Horace Mann, then it’s often a much more sensible decision to go to Coby or Barnard than to Case Western or SUNY Buffalo as compared to how this decision looks to an Asian immigrant family in Queens. First, the cost difference doesn’t mean that much to your parents. Second, college doesn’t just affect your annual comp the year you graduate, it affects (especially if you’re male) who’s going to date you; for either sex, who you will likely end up marrying; what you view as your likely career alternatives; whether you find out about that art history internship in Paris; what kind of junior year abroad program you do, etc. This is the tier of kids that is most helped by attending an elite prep school.

  20. @Hypnotoad666
    If you're asking why a 70% Asian school isn't better represented, isn't Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    Replies: @guest007, @ic1000, @Bardon Kaldlan, @Hibernian

    Especially non-athletes who come from middle class families.

  21. Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    This struck me as well.

    The frontier closed in the 1880s, and America’s borders were already well set with our neighbors by then. America hasn’t needed any immigrants for 140+ and certainly does not a single one now.

    It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.

    Obviously, long term it is the low end that is the huge problem–we no longer have a natural process to cull defective/mediocre genes from our populace. But the huge immigrant subsidies–paid for self-displacement of Americans–at the high end is rancid as well.

    Imagine a sane, foresighted America where any immigrants did not vote, did not have access to elite opportunities, did not write editorials in our leading papers, did not babble as talking heads on TV … until they or their ancestors had married into the American core, served in the military, worked their way up with productive labor–has actually mentally and physically thrown in with us and behaves like an actually loyal American?

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @AnotherDad



    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well... It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.
     
    No, you just fell for Steve Sailer's dog whistling about Asians and colleges.

    If Asians go to elite private schools, it's "all these grinder Asians are taking spots at elite universities and are striving to climb the ladder! Alien overlords!" If they go to public schools, it's "all these 'calculating and unsentimental" Asians think the public should pay for their kids' schooling!" Frankly, it's heads I win, tails I lose bullshit.

    What's really going on here is this: whether Asian or white, if you can put kids in elite private schools, you do, because that dramatically increases the odds of them getting into elite universities. Why? It used to be the argued that it was because the private school (high-income) kids were academically better students. But that's not true these days (as the respective SAT averages at Horace Mann and Stuyvesant show). Elite universities these days prefer students who hail from upscale families, period. All this "holistic" admissions talk is simply a ruse to populate the schools with upscale kids and some token blacks and browns who pose no competitive threats in terms of education or career to those very upscale whites, in lieu of highly competitive downscale students, whether whites from rural Kansas or Asians from grimy Flushing, Queens.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/nj/2016/1/13/how-to-get-more-smart-low-income/3-percent.png

    Notwithstanding Mr. Sailer's Stuyvesant obsession, I've long argued that public magnets such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Sci, and Thomas Jefferson are not "elite" - they are merely for gifted, but poorer (and, yes, increasingly immigrant) students - while the truly elite high schools were and are the likes of St. Alban's, National Cathedral, Andover, Exeter, etc. But you don't see Mr. Sailer punching up at this crowd.

    What this Horace Mann vs. Stuyvesant situation demonstrates has little to do with Asians or race, but is rather an issue of class, that is now the hallmark of elite "education." After all, Horace Mann is also 20% Asian, but they are from the elite point's of view, "our kind of Asians," not the grubby ones at Stuy whose parents work at garment factories or grocery stores.

    My own personal story exemplifies this. I graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1980's. Although I was not an immigrant (my father was a minor diplomat stationed at a consulate in NYC), my parents couldn't afford to send me to a private high school and college. So I went to Stuy (I was one of the top 20 test takers in the whole city my year) and onto the Ivies. And where do my three older kids who are high school age go to school? In one of these public magnets? No, after being homeschooled through middle school, they attend parochial schools that cost $40,000 a year each (yes, I currently spend $120,000 a year on the first three kids on high school alone - once they go to colleges, I will be paying for colleges, minus anyone who attends a service academy, and the next set of kids in high school at $40,000 each). In other words, I've become "our kind of Asian" from the elite perspective.

    And, yes, I pay a monstrous amount of property taxes to finance the public schools (in three different counties) on top of paying for the private schools. It has nothing to do with being white or Asian - I'm just economically upper class now. That's it, period.

    And, despite all this leech talk from Mr. Sailer, Asians in America, per capita, are a net benefit for the public purse, even more so than whites. They have the lowest entitlement use rates and highest tax payout rates, followed by whites (Hispanics are mild net consumers while blacks, predictably, are the biggest sinkhole of public money), meaning they contribute the most per capita to the public purse among all the races despite the fact that whites have the most wealth per capita!

    I oppose further immigration, including from Asia, but if you, as I do, want no more immigration from Asia (and elsewhere), use the right arguments - don't invent made-up ones that can be easily disproven.

    Replies: @Jack P, @Truth, @Alden

    , @George
    @AnotherDad

    "But the huge immigrant subsidies–paid for self-displacement of Americans–at the high end is rancid as well."

    Maybe, but the immigrant children, especially east Asian, are ending up in dental school, medical school, ect. They are the ones keeping the US going.

    I wonder where Stuyvesant vs Horace Mann end up professionally?

  22. Is Twinkie awake this morning, is he at the shooting range or the Ju-Jitsu gym? It’s already kinda late in West Virginia…

  23. @Hypnotoad666
    If you're asking why a 70% Asian school isn't better represented, isn't Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    Replies: @guest007, @ic1000, @Bardon Kaldlan, @Hibernian

    > If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    I read that Aaron Chalfin thread (Link, again). From my follows etc., the algorithm guessed I’d find the topic of interest, and I did.

    Chalfin comes across as smart, diligent, and numerate in an iStevey way. When other smart people wrote in with reasoned counterpoints, he replied. So in multiple ways, this is Twitter living up to its potential.

    Notably, Chalfin made no mention of the racial or ethnic breakdown of either student body. When a correspondent posted some numbers, his reply was along the lines of “interesting”. Elephant in the room, indeed.

    One salient fact is that only a low-single-digit percentage (1%?) of either school is black. So this natural experiment is not another instance of the first-order effects of the massive thumb on the scale in favor of that racial group.

    Perhaps if anti-Asian bias in university admissions had recently been in the news, Chalfin would have considered that [/sarc].

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines. E.g. where did Horace Mann’s (likely upper class) East Asians go, cf. where Stuyvesant’s (working class?) counterparts went?

    Beyond the practical and sensible ‘network effects’ Steve discusses, there are obvious advantages for a strapped family to have a child stay nearby. LIRR train fare to Stony Brook costs less than a flight to Chicago. And I suspect a significant plurality of Stuyvesant’s grads continue to live at home to save money.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @ic1000


    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish.
     
    What would you do with this information if you had it?

    I'm guessing that a substantial % of Mann is still Jewish, but Jews have largely disappeared from NYC's public school system, even the admission by test schools, except maybe for some small number of more recently arrived ex-Soviet Jews (the older ex-Soviets have already migrated to the suburbs or to Florida). Most of the HS age Jews left in NY are Orthodox who don't use the public schools or else rich kids from Manhattan who don't use the public schools either. This is how it always - the public school system in NY was mainly for 1st generation immigrant offspring. People who had already succeeded (or who had a religious agenda) sent their kids to private or religious schools. And Ron Unz has noted the disappearance of Jews from HS math prize winners and such, replaced by a different group of immigrant strivers.

    And see my earlier post about zero Mann students (and therefore zero Jews) getting into Harvard (vs 41 mostly Asians from Stuy ). Harvard needs to keep its SAT averages up while still admitting a lot of blacks and the best way to do it is to counterbalance the blacks with a certain # of 1600 SAT Asians (but this would only bring them to 15% Asian to counterbalance the 15% of blacks).

    Replies: @guest007

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @ic1000


    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines.
     
    I don't have numbers, just an EECS focused impression, but a lot of Jews who matriculated at MIT in the 1980s and earlier went to either Stuyvesant or Bronx Science.

    We can see in the current numbers plenty of the generic Stuyvesant graduating class still go to MIT, 42 total which is 3.8% of MIT's class size of 1,100. That's one more than went to Harvard which has a class size of 1,600 I think, and is a great place to get a world class science and/or math education if you so desire (what you make of your studies at Harvard is largely up to you).

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Recently Based

    , @Steve Sailer
    @ic1000

    NYU is right next to Manhattan's Chinatown so students can walk from home to classes.

    Replies: @Jack D, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  24. Meanwhile,

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/star-high-school-athletes-can-now-profit-nil-deals-rcna51075

    In case you thought athletics couldn’t possibly corrupt education any further, there’s still a good ways to go.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    NIL is great if you're a pretty female gymnast who can take in seven figures posting pics for drooling simps. But what is NIL to a second-string lineman who's only at college so they have a shot at the NFL?

    Replies: @Truth

  25. @Ralph L
    Michigan is a public university, too.

    How many of the HM kids are going back to their parent's home state or alma mater? My parents and uncle/aunt fled NC in the 40s and 50s, settling in DC and Wilmington suburbs, but all seven of their children went to college in NC despite few close relatives left in the state. Only one is still in her home state this century.

    Replies: @Arclight, @OFWHAP

    IU, Michigan, Wisconsin all seem to have pretty strong East Coast contingents. I think some of it is kids returning to where their parents are originally from, but part of it is that some people would rather go for the huge college town experience rather than the small liberal arts experience that is more common in the East. Bloomington, Madison and Anne Arbor are all pretty nice small cities with big picturesque campuses and massive sports and Greek traditions. The East Coast natives I know that went to Big Ten schools like these are really proud and loyal alumni, and obviously these schools’ development departments probably work pretty hard to make sure the wildly successful people on the coasts do their part to donate to their alma mater.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Arclight

    If one reads the book "Partying for the Party" by Armstrong and Hamilton, many of the upper class whites attending Big 10 schools are going for the party, the sorority scene, and knowing that their future job prospects have little to do with their major or their GPA.

    The same can be seen with many Ivy Leagues where they can major in philosophy, English, or political science. The students at Stuyvesant need a degree that leads to a career without the need for networking or parental connections such as engineering, IT, Medicine.

    , @Deckin
    @Arclight

    When I was a TA in Madison, I first was perplexed by all of the East Coast students, but, then, when it was explained to me, I merely marveled at it; if you're used to hijinks from the densely populated Eastern Seaboard, what could Madison have to offer besides beer? I guess the question answers itself.

    But, it's important to note that the Big Ten doesn't get the cream of that Eastern crop, by any means. They were typically extremely well to do (BMW already in hand), often annoying, and usually quite shallow.

    The real gems in the Big Ten, in my experience, were the in-state or reciprocity (Minnesota, etc.) students from modest backgrounds. You still do get kids from farms in Spooner WI and the like who completely blow you away with their cognitive abilities. This used to be celebrated, but now, not so much.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  26. What’s striking to me is that there are zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs). Back in the day, Harvard would have taken at least a few from Mann but now their Mann quota is zero.

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Jack D

    If you go their website, Horace Mann sent 2 kids to Harvard last year (~1% of the class). It's just not in the top 20 destinations. Stuy also has averaged about 1% of their class to Harvard.

    It's true that HM sent nobody to MIT last year, and Stuy also averages about 1% of their graduates to MIT each year.

    The reason that both high schools end up with ~5% of their grads going to HYPSM is that HM sends a way higher proportion of grads to Princeton and Yale than does Stuy.

    Replies: @Inverness

    , @guest007
    @Jack D

    I always joke that the problem with going to MIT is that half of the students are going from being the best student in their high school to not being in the top half anymore. Another joke is that everyone majoring in Drama at NYU was the star of their high school play. Or that every swimmer at Stanford was the state champion when they were in high school.

    , @Anonymous
    @Jack D


    zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs)
     
    Is it zero? Or not just in top 20? Also, why don’t Stuy kids like Columbia?

    Replies: @Alden

    , @Brutusale
    @Jack D

    Conspicuous by their absence for grads of both schools are Amherst and Williams.

    Replies: @Jack D

  27. When I attended SUNY Stony Brook a generation ago, its student body was overwhelmingly Jewish. A recent campus visit disclosed that it is now overwhelmingly Asian. Times change.

  28. @ic1000
    @Hypnotoad666

    > If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    I read that Aaron Chalfin thread (Link, again). From my follows etc., the algorithm guessed I'd find the topic of interest, and I did.

    Chalfin comes across as smart, diligent, and numerate in an iStevey way. When other smart people wrote in with reasoned counterpoints, he replied. So in multiple ways, this is Twitter living up to its potential.

    Notably, Chalfin made no mention of the racial or ethnic breakdown of either student body. When a correspondent posted some numbers, his reply was along the lines of "interesting". Elephant in the room, indeed.

    One salient fact is that only a low-single-digit percentage (1%?) of either school is black. So this natural experiment is not another instance of the first-order effects of the massive thumb on the scale in favor of that racial group.

    Perhaps if anti-Asian bias in university admissions had recently been in the news, Chalfin would have considered that [/sarc].

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines. E.g. where did Horace Mann's (likely upper class) East Asians go, cf. where Stuyvesant's (working class?) counterparts went?

    Beyond the practical and sensible 'network effects' Steve discusses, there are obvious advantages for a strapped family to have a child stay nearby. LIRR train fare to Stony Brook costs less than a flight to Chicago. And I suspect a significant plurality of Stuyvesant's grads continue to live at home to save money.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Steve Sailer

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish.

    What would you do with this information if you had it?

    I’m guessing that a substantial % of Mann is still Jewish, but Jews have largely disappeared from NYC’s public school system, even the admission by test schools, except maybe for some small number of more recently arrived ex-Soviet Jews (the older ex-Soviets have already migrated to the suburbs or to Florida). Most of the HS age Jews left in NY are Orthodox who don’t use the public schools or else rich kids from Manhattan who don’t use the public schools either. This is how it always – the public school system in NY was mainly for 1st generation immigrant offspring. People who had already succeeded (or who had a religious agenda) sent their kids to private or religious schools. And Ron Unz has noted the disappearance of Jews from HS math prize winners and such, replaced by a different group of immigrant strivers.

    And see my earlier post about zero Mann students (and therefore zero Jews) getting into Harvard (vs 41 mostly Asians from Stuy ). Harvard needs to keep its SAT averages up while still admitting a lot of blacks and the best way to do it is to counterbalance the blacks with a certain # of 1600 SAT Asians (but this would only bring them to 15% Asian to counterbalance the 15% of blacks).

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Jack D

    According to collegeresults, Harvard is 9% black and that includes all of the recent immigrants from Africa or the children of recent immigrants. However, Harvard is 18% Asians. And that does not count the 15% of the student body who are international students.

    Replies: @Prester John

  29. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    And named for a champion of compulsory Prussian-style public schooling.

    5 to Tufts University

    “Tufts”– now there’s a hair-triggering name! A black woman there with perhaps a millimeter of outward hair growth is taking on the “white supremacy” of museum art collections:

    Professor Kelli Morgan founds Anti-Racist Curatorial Practice in effort to diversify museums

    She had the nerve to resign from her previous position in Indianapolis, knowing full-well she’d be quickly snapped up somewhere else.

    That is surely not the case for your typical art major!

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Reg Cæsar

    The IMA fired its previous (white gay male) director after a job description discussed the need to diversify the institution while holding on to its traditional white donor and patron base. Obviously this latter bit of honesty was too much and he was shoved out and after a multi-year search they hired a black female who previously ran an HBCU in Texas that has fewer students than the average high school, and who has zero background in the arts altogether. I'm sure it will all go well.

  30. SUNY tuition is $8400 per year. not 17000

  31. @Jack D
    What's striking to me is that there are zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs). Back in the day, Harvard would have taken at least a few from Mann but now their Mann quota is zero.

    Replies: @Recently Based, @guest007, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    If you go their website, Horace Mann sent 2 kids to Harvard last year (~1% of the class). It’s just not in the top 20 destinations. Stuy also has averaged about 1% of their class to Harvard.

    It’s true that HM sent nobody to MIT last year, and Stuy also averages about 1% of their graduates to MIT each year.

    The reason that both high schools end up with ~5% of their grads going to HYPSM is that HM sends a way higher proportion of grads to Princeton and Yale than does Stuy.

    • Replies: @Inverness
    @Recently Based

    No, Jack said it was a QUOTA.
    Of ZERO!

  32. @Ralph L
    Michigan is a public university, too.

    How many of the HM kids are going back to their parent's home state or alma mater? My parents and uncle/aunt fled NC in the 40s and 50s, settling in DC and Wilmington suburbs, but all seven of their children went to college in NC despite few close relatives left in the state. Only one is still in her home state this century.

    Replies: @Arclight, @OFWHAP

    It’s probably the sticker price that “Public Ivies” such as Michigan charge out-of-state students that makes it seem as if it were a private school.

  33. 18.5 out of the top 20? U Michigan is a public school too, no?

    As far as Indiana, I knew one very smart, upscale couple whose kids went there — it has a good law or pre-law program, if I recall correctly

  34. @Arclight
    @Ralph L

    IU, Michigan, Wisconsin all seem to have pretty strong East Coast contingents. I think some of it is kids returning to where their parents are originally from, but part of it is that some people would rather go for the huge college town experience rather than the small liberal arts experience that is more common in the East. Bloomington, Madison and Anne Arbor are all pretty nice small cities with big picturesque campuses and massive sports and Greek traditions. The East Coast natives I know that went to Big Ten schools like these are really proud and loyal alumni, and obviously these schools' development departments probably work pretty hard to make sure the wildly successful people on the coasts do their part to donate to their alma mater.

    Replies: @guest007, @Deckin

    If one reads the book “Partying for the Party” by Armstrong and Hamilton, many of the upper class whites attending Big 10 schools are going for the party, the sorority scene, and knowing that their future job prospects have little to do with their major or their GPA.

    The same can be seen with many Ivy Leagues where they can major in philosophy, English, or political science. The students at Stuyvesant need a degree that leads to a career without the need for networking or parental connections such as engineering, IT, Medicine.

  35. @Jack D
    @ic1000


    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish.
     
    What would you do with this information if you had it?

    I'm guessing that a substantial % of Mann is still Jewish, but Jews have largely disappeared from NYC's public school system, even the admission by test schools, except maybe for some small number of more recently arrived ex-Soviet Jews (the older ex-Soviets have already migrated to the suburbs or to Florida). Most of the HS age Jews left in NY are Orthodox who don't use the public schools or else rich kids from Manhattan who don't use the public schools either. This is how it always - the public school system in NY was mainly for 1st generation immigrant offspring. People who had already succeeded (or who had a religious agenda) sent their kids to private or religious schools. And Ron Unz has noted the disappearance of Jews from HS math prize winners and such, replaced by a different group of immigrant strivers.

    And see my earlier post about zero Mann students (and therefore zero Jews) getting into Harvard (vs 41 mostly Asians from Stuy ). Harvard needs to keep its SAT averages up while still admitting a lot of blacks and the best way to do it is to counterbalance the blacks with a certain # of 1600 SAT Asians (but this would only bring them to 15% Asian to counterbalance the 15% of blacks).

    Replies: @guest007

    According to collegeresults, Harvard is 9% black and that includes all of the recent immigrants from Africa or the children of recent immigrants. However, Harvard is 18% Asians. And that does not count the 15% of the student body who are international students.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    @guest007

    Interesting. H is also 20% Jewish. If you combine Asians and Jews we're talking no more than 5% of the US population yet, they comprise almost 40% of the student body of Harvard!

    Replies: @Recently Based

  36. @ic1000
    @Hypnotoad666

    > If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    I read that Aaron Chalfin thread (Link, again). From my follows etc., the algorithm guessed I'd find the topic of interest, and I did.

    Chalfin comes across as smart, diligent, and numerate in an iStevey way. When other smart people wrote in with reasoned counterpoints, he replied. So in multiple ways, this is Twitter living up to its potential.

    Notably, Chalfin made no mention of the racial or ethnic breakdown of either student body. When a correspondent posted some numbers, his reply was along the lines of "interesting". Elephant in the room, indeed.

    One salient fact is that only a low-single-digit percentage (1%?) of either school is black. So this natural experiment is not another instance of the first-order effects of the massive thumb on the scale in favor of that racial group.

    Perhaps if anti-Asian bias in university admissions had recently been in the news, Chalfin would have considered that [/sarc].

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines. E.g. where did Horace Mann's (likely upper class) East Asians go, cf. where Stuyvesant's (working class?) counterparts went?

    Beyond the practical and sensible 'network effects' Steve discusses, there are obvious advantages for a strapped family to have a child stay nearby. LIRR train fare to Stony Brook costs less than a flight to Chicago. And I suspect a significant plurality of Stuyvesant's grads continue to live at home to save money.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Steve Sailer

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines.

    I don’t have numbers, just an EECS focused impression, but a lot of Jews who matriculated at MIT in the 1980s and earlier went to either Stuyvesant or Bronx Science.

    We can see in the current numbers plenty of the generic Stuyvesant graduating class still go to MIT, 42 total which is 3.8% of MIT’s class size of 1,100. That’s one more than went to Harvard which has a class size of 1,600 I think, and is a great place to get a world class science and/or math education if you so desire (what you make of your studies at Harvard is largely up to you).

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @That Would Be Telling

    Google Earth shows that the Widener Library in Harvard Yard is exactly 1,482 smoots from the Great Dome at MIT.


    https://news.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/200809/20120822153620-1.jpg

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Recently Based
    @That Would Be Telling

    Those numbers for Stuy are the total over four years, so it's more like 10 per year to each of Harvard and MIT.

    Also, agree that there were a lot of Jewish kids from those two schools at MIT in the 80s.

  37. @Jack D
    What's striking to me is that there are zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs). Back in the day, Harvard would have taken at least a few from Mann but now their Mann quota is zero.

    Replies: @Recently Based, @guest007, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    I always joke that the problem with going to MIT is that half of the students are going from being the best student in their high school to not being in the top half anymore. Another joke is that everyone majoring in Drama at NYU was the star of their high school play. Or that every swimmer at Stanford was the state champion when they were in high school.

  38. Rich kids go to rich schools. Poor kids go to poor schools.

    You refuse to talk class war, which is the only war that matters.

  39. @That Would Be Telling
    @ic1000


    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines.
     
    I don't have numbers, just an EECS focused impression, but a lot of Jews who matriculated at MIT in the 1980s and earlier went to either Stuyvesant or Bronx Science.

    We can see in the current numbers plenty of the generic Stuyvesant graduating class still go to MIT, 42 total which is 3.8% of MIT's class size of 1,100. That's one more than went to Harvard which has a class size of 1,600 I think, and is a great place to get a world class science and/or math education if you so desire (what you make of your studies at Harvard is largely up to you).

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Recently Based

    Google Earth shows that the Widener Library in Harvard Yard is exactly 1,482 smoots from the Great Dome at MIT.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar

    A smoot is an impossibly racist unit of measurement. We have the curie as unit of radiation but apparently that is for Pierre, not Marie. Otherwise, most units are named for (mostly dead) white males (although Smoot lives). We need to rename all units in honor of black females. If these black females have no scientific accomplishments we can just imagine them and it's just as good. For example, the smoot could be renamed the katherine in honor of Katherine Johnson. Preferably we could find a black female who is around 5'7" so we wouldn't need to recalibrate all the smoots but if necessary these measurements could be done by white men while black females are getting some well deserved rest from their emotional toil. The meter could be renamed the shuri in honor of the non-existent Wakandan scientist. The unit equal to 100 kilograms (220 lbs.) could be renamed the oprah, for obvious reasons. "How many oprahs do you think that refrigerator weighs?" I'm sure if we look hard enough, many SI units are named in honor of white men who were racist, sexist, etc. and deserve to have these honors taken away from them and bestowed on a black female. Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  40. @Jack D
    What's striking to me is that there are zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs). Back in the day, Harvard would have taken at least a few from Mann but now their Mann quota is zero.

    Replies: @Recently Based, @guest007, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs)

    Is it zero? Or not just in top 20? Also, why don’t Stuy kids like Columbia?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anonymous

    Columbia really really recruits out of state. It wants to be a national school, not just a New York tri state area school. There’s enough smart kids in NYC to fill Columbia. But Columbia wants a nation wide and international student body.

  41. @Arclight
    @Ralph L

    IU, Michigan, Wisconsin all seem to have pretty strong East Coast contingents. I think some of it is kids returning to where their parents are originally from, but part of it is that some people would rather go for the huge college town experience rather than the small liberal arts experience that is more common in the East. Bloomington, Madison and Anne Arbor are all pretty nice small cities with big picturesque campuses and massive sports and Greek traditions. The East Coast natives I know that went to Big Ten schools like these are really proud and loyal alumni, and obviously these schools' development departments probably work pretty hard to make sure the wildly successful people on the coasts do their part to donate to their alma mater.

    Replies: @guest007, @Deckin

    When I was a TA in Madison, I first was perplexed by all of the East Coast students, but, then, when it was explained to me, I merely marveled at it; if you’re used to hijinks from the densely populated Eastern Seaboard, what could Madison have to offer besides beer? I guess the question answers itself.

    But, it’s important to note that the Big Ten doesn’t get the cream of that Eastern crop, by any means. They were typically extremely well to do (BMW already in hand), often annoying, and usually quite shallow.

    The real gems in the Big Ten, in my experience, were the in-state or reciprocity (Minnesota, etc.) students from modest backgrounds. You still do get kids from farms in Spooner WI and the like who completely blow you away with their cognitive abilities. This used to be celebrated, but now, not so much.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Deckin

    Thanks for this.

    My experience back in the day as a TA at a Big 10 school was much the same. As a nobody from a rural area myself, I was initially caught off guard by how many big-money big-city undergrads were appearing in my teaching sections. And, as you say, on the whole they were not that impressive: lots of know-it-alls who didn't know all that much.

  42. Anon[598] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai
    For fun here is a recent Hollywood depiction of the demographics of not-Stuyvesant.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GacKDHfiJIA

    Maybe having Peter go to school with lots of East Asians would have led to uncomfortable thoughts being awakened in the audiences heads, instead he goes to a school that looks half like Abercombie and Fitch (Old school, it seems like they were averse to casting anything but attractive whites) and half general masses of non-whites (Who were not specifically cast for being attractive it seems) none of whom seems to fit any pattern for a 'gifted' person or seems very intellectual at all.

    Meanwhile they remade Gossip Girl recently about the lives of super rich girls who go to school in Manhattan. While I think Steve made note of it's Abercrombie and Fitch style attractive WASP demographics in the original being at least 30 years out of date at the time with none of the characters being Jewish, the new one seeks to rectify this! By having a more diverse set of goys that is even more unrealistic but simultaneously pointing to the public school demographics in NYC to justify their decision as not being non-white enough!

    Here is the new cast above and the old one below, neither of which looks anything like the very Jewish schools that inspired their setting.

    https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/2f0/e1b/d340ee20899b997d40d9f703e68c82450a-17-gossip-girl-vs-reboot.rhorizontal.w700.jpg

    For reference NYT science writer Donald McNeil was cancelled by the real 'Gossip Girls' in 2021 from the actual privileged Jewish Manhattan high schools the show is based upon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_G._McNeil_Jr.#Dismissal_from_The_New_York_Times

    Replies: @Anon

    It seems to me that Altai is addressing the central dichotomy here: Asian vs. Jewish higher ed outcomes. Stuyvesant is full of exam-cramming Asians, although many students appear to be genuinely smart (42 going to MIT! 41 to Harvard! and that’s only acceptances by the students, not total admissions by the schools). I’ve only known a small number of Horace Mann alumni, but they were all Jewish, so I’m naively assuming that the students there are probably as Jewish as Stuyvesant students are Asian. Critically, though, one thing that is probably irrelevant to this story is the preferences of white (i.e., “goyim”/gentile) students. To frame this as white preferences vs. Asian preferences really misses the point; Hayven Moynihan has at most a supporting role in this story.

    “The comparison is striking. Even among kids who uniformly score in the top 1-3% on national exams, wealthy families have established a unique means to convert merit into admissions success, therefore transmitting this particular type of cultural capital to their children.”

    Beyond ignoring the ethnic story here, this guy also misstates the relative statuses of these students. When you’re talking about going to Cambridge, MA for college, you might as well save your application fee if you only scored in the 97th percentile on the SAT. However, if you want to go to St. Louis, then WashU is right up your alley.

    The simplest story here (standard uncertainty caveats apply, of course) is
    Stuyvesant = lots of mildly-intelligent exam-crammers who go to NYC-area colleges, with a few truly intelligent students mixed in who go to big name schools, both groups being mostly Asian
    Horace Mann = kids who are about as smart as the Stuy exam-crammers, but who read real books instead of study guides, and whose family money and/or connections will often end up determining which fly-over school they’ll go to (WashU, Indiana, and Northwestern are poster children for this) instead of SUNY Stony Brook

    • Replies: @Altai
    @Anon

    I think it also tells us about the preferences of producers to pretend the ethnic/class dynamics of 1920s America are still fully intact and what the preferences of TV audiences are.

    Though there is some dissent at this.

    It’s Been 10 Years And We’re Still Asking: Why Were There No Jews On ‘Gossip Girl’?
    https://forward.com/schmooze/381700/its-been-10-years-and-were-still-asking-why-were-there-no-jews-on-gossip-gi

    But I would suggest that Steve is very right about the fact that immigrant parents from certain groups do seek out public money like no other and it is because taking from the host country is the whole objective of any immigrant (Why would you go someplace for economic reasons and give more than you take?) but some are more shameless than others. This is 100% real. Anything that is free gets exploited by them.

    But I don't know that the rich do these things out of a sense of decorum or guilt so much as a sense of networking and being around their peers in general. Surely some sense of guilt about taking public money from the middle and rich does exist but it's not the overriding concern.

    The rich like to pay their way into things because it means they get to be around each other and network which allows them to better hold onto their wealth and only associated with and have their children associate with their peers. We see this too for the squeezed middle class and the more status-conscious upper middle class though they do it more begrudgingly. The middle class are the ones who have accepted paying for schools and who don't exploit public money out of a sense of guilt and honor and most importantly it simply not occurring to them. (With striver immigrants doing things like car insurance fraud like having a car a man drives under his wife's name etc and anything they can think of to exploit society) The rich not so much.

    , @Alden
    @Anon

    Harvard no longer requires SAT submission for the fall class of 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026.

    Harvard will reconsider SATs for the fall class of 2027.

    The rest of the Ivies aren’t accepting SATs either. Most colleges no longer require SATs. And right in the application there’s a statement that submitting or not submitting SATs will not affect acceptance.

    So why are you writing about the in process of becoming obsolete SATs?

  43. MIT is “Ivy League?” News to me! (Must be a typo).

    Ah the Smoots. I fondly recall all those winter days walking over the bridge freezing my ears off and counting the Smoots.

    “Google Earth shows that the Widener Library in Harvard Yard is exactly 1,482 smoots from the Great Dome at MIT.” – What, exactly, not even plus or minus an ear?

  44. anon[115] • Disclaimer says:

    while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    The bigger picture beyond the question of whether asians face hurdles to the Ivies:

    We shouldn’t be ushering millions of IQ-skimmed asians into the US to displace Core White Americans from eminent academic opportunities at institutions founded and cultivated by those Core White Americans.

  45. @That Would Be Telling
    @ic1000


    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines.
     
    I don't have numbers, just an EECS focused impression, but a lot of Jews who matriculated at MIT in the 1980s and earlier went to either Stuyvesant or Bronx Science.

    We can see in the current numbers plenty of the generic Stuyvesant graduating class still go to MIT, 42 total which is 3.8% of MIT's class size of 1,100. That's one more than went to Harvard which has a class size of 1,600 I think, and is a great place to get a world class science and/or math education if you so desire (what you make of your studies at Harvard is largely up to you).

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Recently Based

    Those numbers for Stuy are the total over four years, so it’s more like 10 per year to each of Harvard and MIT.

    Also, agree that there were a lot of Jewish kids from those two schools at MIT in the 80s.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  46. @Reg Cæsar

    Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.
     
    And named for a champion of compulsory Prussian-style public schooling.

    5 to Tufts University
     
    "Tufts"-- now there's a hair-triggering name! A black woman there with perhaps a millimeter of outward hair growth is taking on the "white supremacy" of museum art collections:


    Professor Kelli Morgan founds Anti-Racist Curatorial Practice in effort to diversify museums


    She had the nerve to resign from her previous position in Indianapolis, knowing full-well she'd be quickly snapped up somewhere else.

    That is surely not the case for your typical art major!

    Replies: @Arclight

    The IMA fired its previous (white gay male) director after a job description discussed the need to diversify the institution while holding on to its traditional white donor and patron base. Obviously this latter bit of honesty was too much and he was shoved out and after a multi-year search they hired a black female who previously ran an HBCU in Texas that has fewer students than the average high school, and who has zero background in the arts altogether. I’m sure it will all go well.

  47. @Spangel226
    @Redneck farmer

    Agree. It’s absurd to downplay the price difference between a prestigious private university and a state school. For Stuyvesant grads, it seems like shelling out is worth it for the ivies but not worth it for a school which is merely top tier such as USC.

    Are they right? My guess is yes. Those students have enough on the ball so that they will get where they need to in life while going to a state school rather than a wash u. I don’t think it’s that they want to benefit from the local network. It’s that they plan to go to grad school and the prestige of the grad school will determine their career prospects more than the undergrad institute they attended. With top grades and test scores, they can get into the best law schools and med schools even when coming from a state school. It might be marginally easier to get into a top grad program from a private university ranked 15-30 than suny, but that difference is probably very small and not worth paying for for a family of modest income.

    And while top schools are often need blind, many kids at Stuyvesant aren’t poor. They are just middle income, which doesn’t get them a full tuition break.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    As always, there’s elite and there’s elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford’s tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Recently Based

    H-Y-P-S are quite generous with financial aid / discounts to middle income families although they prefer to admit the rich and the poor. I don't believe the next tier down private schools are that lavish.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    , @Spangel226
    @Recently Based

    This is probably also an important factor for why stuy kids go to Harvard in large numbers but not Wash u.

    , @International Jew
    @Recently Based


    Stanford’s tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K
     
    Not if you also have a solid net worth -- like the kind you ought to have if you're approaching retirement age (and you didn't work for the government). Stanford (and its ilk) have their own ideas about how much you need for a comfortable retirement, and they'd like to separate you from anything you have in excess of that.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    , @Alden
    @Recently Based

    Hmmm I should ask Brandon, son in law’s nephew about that. And his grandparents. Grandparents who paid his tuition from kindergarten through Stanford. Always better to ask someone who graduated from Stanford about 4 years ago about Stanford tuition.

    Than rely on links provided by someone who lives in the internet.

    Stuyvesant high school who cares. Especially as it’s now an asian immigrant school..

  48. @Anon
    OT

    I really loved Avatar and saw it three times in the theater (much of what I liked was the great use of 3D and animation, but I thought the overall story was fine too).

    I just watched the trailers for Avatar 2. Thoughts:

    -- The first one was slightly annoying with its Carlos Castanedaesque naturalistic mysticism and anti-colonialism vibe, but this new one seems to be pushing it much further. I hope it isn't intolerably woke and Mary Sue girlbossy.

    -- The for-the-time stunning special effects and animation now look like something between a Pixar film and a Marvel movie. Hmmm. The intervening years (decades?) have allowed others to catch up while Cameron has not been able to push much more ahead in this area.

    -- Hair! The "natives" have dreadlocks and Mohawks. Will this become an issue? Did Cameron purchase licenses to use these hairstyles from the Elders of Blackdom and the Feather Indian Sodality? Also, although the appropriation of indiginous images and tropes raised eyebrows in the first film, wokeness was still a baby back then. What will the reaction today be?

    -- Nobody is fat in Avatar land. Isn't this sizeist? With animation couldn't they have fat characters flying around and doing backflips just like the skinny characters? Cameron should have trolled us with a "leaked" sequence with fat characters that gets "left on the cutting room floor" in the final release. Imagine the press and the social media attention that would provoke.

    Replies: @Old Prude, @Muggles

    “The Woke is stronger in you now!” sez Cameron. Avatar II sounds like desperation.

    Disney is in chaos due to Iger’s bullying and something like $8 billion (!) in accumulated streaming losses there since inception. Now he’s back in the saddle.

    Normally the sequels deteriorate quickly in succession. This seems par for the course…

    Since culture appears to be past Peak Woke, Disney is just milking this purple (cash) cow for bucks.

    When the first film has a novel characteristic it can attract large appreciative audiences. The second, more of the same, reduces audiences and often disappoints them.

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable. Unlike EVs, no government subsidies (so far).

    The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.

    It is a particularly bad time for streaming since the Woke mania for talent-less women and non Whites is being pushed far beyond their capabilities for Hollywood brownie points. These projects often result in smaller audiences. Few pay monthly streaming fees merely to see them.

    The two part (so far) Wakanda films are an exception since Blacks! have responded with Tyler Perry enthusiasm. But they won’t support streaming TV to any great degree. Even a Wakanda streamed series wouldn’t generate much monthly revenue.

    What is to be done with Disney’s (and others) multi billion dollar inventory of dead streaming content? Sooner or later to recoup costs, streaming will have large tiers of ad sponsored non-pay free streaming channels. And perhaps eventually over-the-air broadcast ad TV stations showing this content.

    Shareholders in a relatively free market will not sustain billions in product losses for very long.

    Big name directors/creators are only as valuable as their last successful project.

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    @Muggles

    "The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included."

    Amazon Prime has the Freevee channel, that has numerous breaks for delivering ad content that cannot be skipped. Mute the sound.

    Back to the fifties and sixties, pre VCR times.

    More content on Amazon is now in pay to play channels with monthly subscription fees.

    Replies: @Ralph L

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Muggles


    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable.
     
    I'd like you to defend that.

    As I understand it, after Netflix showed the way a company eventually came up with a [not sure of the scope] for others to use than basically handles the technical problems except maybe of scale. I don't have a current reading on scale issues so I'll skip it for now, especially because:

    The other question is what does a streaming service have to offer, and how many of them will an individual or family sign up for? The success of Netflix resulted in their largely losing their IP library to the rightsholders who planned to offer their own services, and their attempt to replace it with their own productions is infamous.

    That loss was short sighted greed because people are not going to sign up to a huge number of services, to the point it rivals a traditional cable or satellite TV bill. I hear maybe as many as two, and that there's a pattern of signing up for one a month or two at a time just to binge on its unique/good stuff then move on and maybe return some long time in the future. As well as trying to share a single subscription.

    Further, I've heard Iger simply refused to offer the complete Disney library, which beyond the anathema to good Jews Song of the South which will take a commando team to see the light of day (assuming all copies haven't already been destroyed) does not have a lot of Walt and beyond era wholesome stuff, the stuff I grew up on including as I remember a regular Sunday? "Walt Disney Hour" or something like that??

    If this wasn't "Hollywood" where people will do stupid things for decades with the IP they own or think they do (cough Macross cough) you'd expect an eventual crash and consolidation resulting in many fewer streaming services that offer individually sufficient libraries, returning to something like the original Netflix streaming model. Which was in a way like their original DVD lending model which I suppose has been replaced by Redbox??

    Replies: @Muggles

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Muggles


    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.
     
    Which will give them a COPPA feel.
  49. @Anon55uu
    Here is an interview of Caroline Ellison of Alameda Research fame in her High School newspaper. She is something of an expert in college entrance matters.

    https://thetigerinsidercom.wordpress.com/2018/09/29/college-is-pretty-great-caroline-ellison-12/

    Replies: @Dan Kurt

    Seeing her visage in the interview I now can say that I have seen the epitome of a 1 out of 10 or is it a 0.5 out 10. Unlike Elizabeth Holmes who given her score 6 out of 10 in the looks department managed to get from the judge about 11 years to serve, Caroline Ellison is apt to get a juicy two century terms served back to back as a service to the vanity of America’s trans women by keeping her out of the dating pool.

    Dan Kurt

  50. Stuyvesant grads don’t need to go to prestige schools. Their Stuyvesant diploma will always be the turbocharger on their resumes. Ever notice how Stuyvesant grads, like Harvard grads, always tell you where they went to school?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Bragadocious


    Stuyvesant grads don’t need to go to prestige schools. Their Stuyvesant diploma will always be the turbocharger on their resumes. Ever notice how Stuyvesant grads, like Harvard grads, always tell you where they went to school?
     
    I wish. In elite circles, a Stuy diploma simply means you grew up poorly. It means nothing. What you want is an Andover, Exeter, or St. Alban's diploma. And you don't have to put it in your resume, because you are already networked with elite alums and their world-ruling parents.

    Replies: @Alden

  51. Note that a lot of the Stuy kids going to CUNY/SUNY are going into honors programs there, with scholarships.

    I don’t really understand NYU. As Steve has perceptively noted, it’s really intelligently taken advantage of NYC’s excess of human capital. However, it just seems like it’s at a terrible point on the cost/prestige trade-off curve to me. It’s considerably less prestigious than HYPS, but considerably more expensive than a state university.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    For lower middle class families, a private university with generous financial aid (the kind of aid you might offer a promising Asian with 1600 SATs who will raise NYU's USNews ratings) may be cheaper than attending a state school. State schools, paradoxically, are bargains mostly for higher income families who would not get financial aid at private Us.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    I don’t really understand NYU. As Steve has perceptively noted, it’s really intelligently taken advantage of NYC’s excess of human capital. However, it just seems like it’s at a terrible point on the cost/prestige trade-off curve to me. It’s considerably less prestigious than HYPS, but considerably more expensive than a state university.

    Yves Smith memorably described it as "a real estate development/management business with a predatory higher-education side venture". For a deep dive into how predatory see

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/05/the-art-of-the-gouge-nyu-as-a-model-for-predatory-higher-education.html

  52. @Reg Cæsar
    @That Would Be Telling

    Google Earth shows that the Widener Library in Harvard Yard is exactly 1,482 smoots from the Great Dome at MIT.


    https://news.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/200809/20120822153620-1.jpg

    Replies: @Jack D

    A smoot is an impossibly racist unit of measurement. We have the curie as unit of radiation but apparently that is for Pierre, not Marie. Otherwise, most units are named for (mostly dead) white males (although Smoot lives). We need to rename all units in honor of black females. If these black females have no scientific accomplishments we can just imagine them and it’s just as good. For example, the smoot could be renamed the katherine in honor of Katherine Johnson. Preferably we could find a black female who is around 5’7″ so we wouldn’t need to recalibrate all the smoots but if necessary these measurements could be done by white men while black females are getting some well deserved rest from their emotional toil. The meter could be renamed the shuri in honor of the non-existent Wakandan scientist. The unit equal to 100 kilograms (220 lbs.) could be renamed the oprah, for obvious reasons. “How many oprahs do you think that refrigerator weighs?” I’m sure if we look hard enough, many SI units are named in honor of white men who were racist, sexist, etc. and deserve to have these honors taken away from them and bestowed on a black female. Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jack D

    That picture was from 1958. Was everything they're wearing manufactured right there in Massachusetts?

    There were dress factories in my hometown into the 1970s. My mother and grandmother worked part-time at one.

  53. @Stolen Valor Detective
    Note that a lot of the Stuy kids going to CUNY/SUNY are going into honors programs there, with scholarships.

    I don't really understand NYU. As Steve has perceptively noted, it's really intelligently taken advantage of NYC's excess of human capital. However, it just seems like it's at a terrible point on the cost/prestige trade-off curve to me. It's considerably less prestigious than HYPS, but considerably more expensive than a state university.

    Replies: @Jack D, @kaganovitch

    For lower middle class families, a private university with generous financial aid (the kind of aid you might offer a promising Asian with 1600 SATs who will raise NYU’s USNews ratings) may be cheaper than attending a state school. State schools, paradoxically, are bargains mostly for higher income families who would not get financial aid at private Us.

  54. @Recently Based
    @Spangel226

    As always, there's elite and there's elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford's tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel226, @International Jew, @Alden

    H-Y-P-S are quite generous with financial aid / discounts to middle income families although they prefer to admit the rich and the poor. I don’t believe the next tier down private schools are that lavish.

    • Agree: Recently Based
    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Steve Sailer

    Exactly agree. I was trying to point out that there are important gradations within "elite" colleges with respect to almost everything, including net cost.

  55. A couple of decades ago, at my public suburban high school in the heart of Silicon Valley, virtually every graduate who attended an out-of-state private college was white.

    Virtually every Asian graduate attended a UC campus (or perhaps CSU).

    At that time, whites & Asians were about at parity in the top 10% of the high school class.

    The career paths of thosee Asian grads skew toward doctors, MBAs, engineers, whereas nonprofits, arts etc. are more heavily represented among the white grads.

  56. @Muggles
    @Anon

    "The Woke is stronger in you now!" sez Cameron. Avatar II sounds like desperation.

    Disney is in chaos due to Iger's bullying and something like $8 billion (!) in accumulated streaming losses there since inception. Now he's back in the saddle.

    Normally the sequels deteriorate quickly in succession. This seems par for the course...

    Since culture appears to be past Peak Woke, Disney is just milking this purple (cash) cow for bucks.

    When the first film has a novel characteristic it can attract large appreciative audiences. The second, more of the same, reduces audiences and often disappoints them.

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable. Unlike EVs, no government subsidies (so far).

    The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.

    It is a particularly bad time for streaming since the Woke mania for talent-less women and non Whites is being pushed far beyond their capabilities for Hollywood brownie points. These projects often result in smaller audiences. Few pay monthly streaming fees merely to see them.

    The two part (so far) Wakanda films are an exception since Blacks! have responded with Tyler Perry enthusiasm. But they won't support streaming TV to any great degree. Even a Wakanda streamed series wouldn't generate much monthly revenue.

    What is to be done with Disney's (and others) multi billion dollar inventory of dead streaming content? Sooner or later to recoup costs, streaming will have large tiers of ad sponsored non-pay free streaming channels. And perhaps eventually over-the-air broadcast ad TV stations showing this content.

    Shareholders in a relatively free market will not sustain billions in product losses for very long.

    Big name directors/creators are only as valuable as their last successful project.

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse, @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

    “The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.”

    Amazon Prime has the Freevee channel, that has numerous breaks for delivering ad content that cannot be skipped. Mute the sound.

    Back to the fifties and sixties, pre VCR times.

    More content on Amazon is now in pay to play channels with monthly subscription fees.

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @SaneClownPosse

    Pluto TV is free with ads, but since the election, the great majority of the ads are for Pluto channels, so I don't know how they profit. It's the same ads, over and over. The shows repeat, too, and they don't publish a schedule except an hour or two in advance. You get what you pay for.

  57. @Muggles
    @Anon

    "The Woke is stronger in you now!" sez Cameron. Avatar II sounds like desperation.

    Disney is in chaos due to Iger's bullying and something like $8 billion (!) in accumulated streaming losses there since inception. Now he's back in the saddle.

    Normally the sequels deteriorate quickly in succession. This seems par for the course...

    Since culture appears to be past Peak Woke, Disney is just milking this purple (cash) cow for bucks.

    When the first film has a novel characteristic it can attract large appreciative audiences. The second, more of the same, reduces audiences and often disappoints them.

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable. Unlike EVs, no government subsidies (so far).

    The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.

    It is a particularly bad time for streaming since the Woke mania for talent-less women and non Whites is being pushed far beyond their capabilities for Hollywood brownie points. These projects often result in smaller audiences. Few pay monthly streaming fees merely to see them.

    The two part (so far) Wakanda films are an exception since Blacks! have responded with Tyler Perry enthusiasm. But they won't support streaming TV to any great degree. Even a Wakanda streamed series wouldn't generate much monthly revenue.

    What is to be done with Disney's (and others) multi billion dollar inventory of dead streaming content? Sooner or later to recoup costs, streaming will have large tiers of ad sponsored non-pay free streaming channels. And perhaps eventually over-the-air broadcast ad TV stations showing this content.

    Shareholders in a relatively free market will not sustain billions in product losses for very long.

    Big name directors/creators are only as valuable as their last successful project.

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse, @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable.

    I’d like you to defend that.

    As I understand it, after Netflix showed the way a company eventually came up with a [not sure of the scope] for others to use than basically handles the technical problems except maybe of scale. I don’t have a current reading on scale issues so I’ll skip it for now, especially because:

    The other question is what does a streaming service have to offer, and how many of them will an individual or family sign up for? The success of Netflix resulted in their largely losing their IP library to the rightsholders who planned to offer their own services, and their attempt to replace it with their own productions is infamous.

    That loss was short sighted greed because people are not going to sign up to a huge number of services, to the point it rivals a traditional cable or satellite TV bill. I hear maybe as many as two, and that there’s a pattern of signing up for one a month or two at a time just to binge on its unique/good stuff then move on and maybe return some long time in the future. As well as trying to share a single subscription.

    Further, I’ve heard Iger simply refused to offer the complete Disney library, which beyond the anathema to good Jews Song of the South which will take a commando team to see the light of day (assuming all copies haven’t already been destroyed) does not have a lot of Walt and beyond era wholesome stuff, the stuff I grew up on including as I remember a regular Sunday? “Walt Disney Hour” or something like that??

    If this wasn’t “Hollywood” where people will do stupid things for decades with the IP they own or think they do (cough Macross cough) you’d expect an eventual crash and consolidation resulting in many fewer streaming services that offer individually sufficient libraries, returning to something like the original Netflix streaming model. Which was in a way like their original DVD lending model which I suppose has been replaced by Redbox??

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @That Would Be Telling


    I’d like you to defend that.
     
    While I'm not obligated to defend my comment about 'streaming today being economically unsustainable', your subsequent post comments go a long way to making that.

    I read the WSJ daily and for the past 18 months or so they have run lengthy articles about streaming, Netflix and recently, Disney.

    From memory, the recent coverage of the Disney shakeup mentions a $9 + billion accumulated loss so far on all of their streaming channels (they own most of Hulu also). The most recent annual loss about $1.3 billion. Worldwide Disney has the most paid subscribers, something like 135 million.

    Netflix, the pioneer here, has had only two profitable years in the past 11 or so. So still not turning a profit. The others are much newer and I don't have a ready breakdown of Discovery, Paramount, etc. results. Most of those have been recently combined or added into larger media conglomerates. The streaming segments have lost money.

    The industry is trying to discover the magic formula for profit. As you said, many subscribers churn streamers regularly as they often want to see only one or a few shows. Many of which are only 8-12 episodes long. The "churn" adds to the capital loss "burn."

    I recall one estimate of accumulated streaming burn to date of about $30+ billion, all in. A lot of the detail is included in the overall results for other media ownership assets like cable, print, film/TV production or in the case of Apple and Google, online ad businesses.

    What that has bought is a large steaming pile of not much watched streamed programs. Some very popular, most not. As expensive as most film productions, not as cheap as most TV productions.

    All of the executives of these media outfits predict a future turnaround, but this refrain has been sung for all prior years. Now of course, ads being dumped on paying subscribers. How is that better than cable (no ads) or even Old School broadcast TV?

    Streamers now adding exclusive sports, but again very expensive and most will have ads.

    Where do the billions come from? Investors. Yes, start up services often lose a lot at first, but these media outfits aren't startups in streaming. Films, TV, cable, etc. is old tech. Streaming is now old tech.

    Theatrical films are also in the toilet. Often more expensive than streaming (per hour, for certain) but unless blockbusters or multiple film franchises, barely break even or lose money. Specialty audiences like for black films do okay but only for major stars.

    If you have an "argument" for streaming being profitable, let's hear it. I haven't seen it, which is why these WSJ articles seem so dire.

    If you have the magic formula, let us know. Disney may soon want to contact you...

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  58. @Hypnotoad666
    If you're asking why a 70% Asian school isn't better represented, isn't Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    Replies: @guest007, @ic1000, @Bardon Kaldlan, @Hibernian

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS…for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn’t this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    I wouldn't be surprised if they're had been a dynastic marriage or two between the Wongs and the Stuyvesants.

    , @Jack D
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Who is "we"? The taxpayers of NYC are mostly not white goyim.

    , @CalCooledge
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Yes, it should be, but what used to be the USA has been invaded and colonized by foreigners with the collaboration of damnable white liberals.

    , @Rob
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Just an FYI, Bardon Kaldian is an established, intelligent commenter, though maybe not my cup of tea.

    Bardon Kaldlan has two L’s in his name. He’s a halfwit. At best, choosing a name so close to an established commenter’s handle is not very kosher.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan

    , @Truth
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Peter Stuyvesant was an immigrant... And a handicap.

    , @Jack D
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    BTW, your racist shtick has been going on since the days of the original Peter Stuyvesant. When the 1st Jews landed in New Amsterdam (refugees from a Dutch colony in S. America that had recently been conquered by the Portuguese), Stuyvesant wrote to his bosses at the Dutch West India Company (New Amsterdam was a company town) asking to expel the "deceitful," "very repugnant," "hateful enemies and blasphemers of the name of Christ." (But being Dutch, he asked if he could do so "in a friendly way"- LOL).

    His bosses wrote back and told him, as much as they would like to do so, the Company had a number of important shareholders and directors who were Jewish who they could not piss off, so no can do, Pete - the Jews gotta stay.

    So far the modern day Jews of NY don't have the mojo to get Pete's name removed from everything but they are working on it::

    https://nypost.com/2017/08/24/jewish-activists-target-removal-of-peter-stuyvesant-monuments/

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan

  59. The SUNY colleges are tuition-free for students from families earning up to $125,000 per year under the Excelsior Scholarship. https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship

  60. @Anon
    @Altai

    It seems to me that Altai is addressing the central dichotomy here: Asian vs. Jewish higher ed outcomes. Stuyvesant is full of exam-cramming Asians, although many students appear to be genuinely smart (42 going to MIT! 41 to Harvard! and that's only acceptances by the students, not total admissions by the schools). I've only known a small number of Horace Mann alumni, but they were all Jewish, so I'm naively assuming that the students there are probably as Jewish as Stuyvesant students are Asian. Critically, though, one thing that is probably irrelevant to this story is the preferences of white (i.e., "goyim"/gentile) students. To frame this as white preferences vs. Asian preferences really misses the point; Hayven Moynihan has at most a supporting role in this story.

    "The comparison is striking. Even among kids who uniformly score in the top 1-3% on national exams, wealthy families have established a unique means to convert merit into admissions success, therefore transmitting this particular type of cultural capital to their children."

    Beyond ignoring the ethnic story here, this guy also misstates the relative statuses of these students. When you're talking about going to Cambridge, MA for college, you might as well save your application fee if you only scored in the 97th percentile on the SAT. However, if you want to go to St. Louis, then WashU is right up your alley.

    The simplest story here (standard uncertainty caveats apply, of course) is
    Stuyvesant = lots of mildly-intelligent exam-crammers who go to NYC-area colleges, with a few truly intelligent students mixed in who go to big name schools, both groups being mostly Asian
    Horace Mann = kids who are about as smart as the Stuy exam-crammers, but who read real books instead of study guides, and whose family money and/or connections will often end up determining which fly-over school they'll go to (WashU, Indiana, and Northwestern are poster children for this) instead of SUNY Stony Brook

    Replies: @Altai, @Alden

    I think it also tells us about the preferences of producers to pretend the ethnic/class dynamics of 1920s America are still fully intact and what the preferences of TV audiences are.

    Though there is some dissent at this.

    It’s Been 10 Years And We’re Still Asking: Why Were There No Jews On ‘Gossip Girl’?
    https://forward.com/schmooze/381700/its-been-10-years-and-were-still-asking-why-were-there-no-jews-on-gossip-gi

    But I would suggest that Steve is very right about the fact that immigrant parents from certain groups do seek out public money like no other and it is because taking from the host country is the whole objective of any immigrant (Why would you go someplace for economic reasons and give more than you take?) but some are more shameless than others. This is 100% real. Anything that is free gets exploited by them.

    But I don’t know that the rich do these things out of a sense of decorum or guilt so much as a sense of networking and being around their peers in general. Surely some sense of guilt about taking public money from the middle and rich does exist but it’s not the overriding concern.

    The rich like to pay their way into things because it means they get to be around each other and network which allows them to better hold onto their wealth and only associated with and have their children associate with their peers. We see this too for the squeezed middle class and the more status-conscious upper middle class though they do it more begrudgingly. The middle class are the ones who have accepted paying for schools and who don’t exploit public money out of a sense of guilt and honor and most importantly it simply not occurring to them. (With striver immigrants doing things like car insurance fraud like having a car a man drives under his wife’s name etc and anything they can think of to exploit society) The rich not so much.

  61. @MagyarDiak
    While we’re on the topic of elite high schools and college admissions, does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?

    Is it simply that they view test prep as a multi year exercise, starting with Kumon in 5th grade and culminating with the SAT junior year in HS, having started prepping for the PSAT in 7th grade?

    While white parents see the PSAT prep as a maximum of 3 months of preparation immediately before taking it?

    Anyone have any good info on precisely what Asians do differently than whites when it comes to this? And why whites are or aren’t imitating such methods?

    Replies: @Inverness, @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    White dads want their sons to be good at sports, and their daughters to win beauty pageants.

  62. @Recently Based
    @Jack D

    If you go their website, Horace Mann sent 2 kids to Harvard last year (~1% of the class). It's just not in the top 20 destinations. Stuy also has averaged about 1% of their class to Harvard.

    It's true that HM sent nobody to MIT last year, and Stuy also averages about 1% of their graduates to MIT each year.

    The reason that both high schools end up with ~5% of their grads going to HYPSM is that HM sends a way higher proportion of grads to Princeton and Yale than does Stuy.

    Replies: @Inverness

    No, Jack said it was a QUOTA.
    Of ZERO!

  63. @That Would Be Telling
    @Muggles


    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable.
     
    I'd like you to defend that.

    As I understand it, after Netflix showed the way a company eventually came up with a [not sure of the scope] for others to use than basically handles the technical problems except maybe of scale. I don't have a current reading on scale issues so I'll skip it for now, especially because:

    The other question is what does a streaming service have to offer, and how many of them will an individual or family sign up for? The success of Netflix resulted in their largely losing their IP library to the rightsholders who planned to offer their own services, and their attempt to replace it with their own productions is infamous.

    That loss was short sighted greed because people are not going to sign up to a huge number of services, to the point it rivals a traditional cable or satellite TV bill. I hear maybe as many as two, and that there's a pattern of signing up for one a month or two at a time just to binge on its unique/good stuff then move on and maybe return some long time in the future. As well as trying to share a single subscription.

    Further, I've heard Iger simply refused to offer the complete Disney library, which beyond the anathema to good Jews Song of the South which will take a commando team to see the light of day (assuming all copies haven't already been destroyed) does not have a lot of Walt and beyond era wholesome stuff, the stuff I grew up on including as I remember a regular Sunday? "Walt Disney Hour" or something like that??

    If this wasn't "Hollywood" where people will do stupid things for decades with the IP they own or think they do (cough Macross cough) you'd expect an eventual crash and consolidation resulting in many fewer streaming services that offer individually sufficient libraries, returning to something like the original Netflix streaming model. Which was in a way like their original DVD lending model which I suppose has been replaced by Redbox??

    Replies: @Muggles

    I’d like you to defend that.

    While I’m not obligated to defend my comment about ‘streaming today being economically unsustainable’, your subsequent post comments go a long way to making that.

    I read the WSJ daily and for the past 18 months or so they have run lengthy articles about streaming, Netflix and recently, Disney.

    From memory, the recent coverage of the Disney shakeup mentions a $9 + billion accumulated loss so far on all of their streaming channels (they own most of Hulu also). The most recent annual loss about $1.3 billion. Worldwide Disney has the most paid subscribers, something like 135 million.

    Netflix, the pioneer here, has had only two profitable years in the past 11 or so. So still not turning a profit. The others are much newer and I don’t have a ready breakdown of Discovery, Paramount, etc. results. Most of those have been recently combined or added into larger media conglomerates. The streaming segments have lost money.

    The industry is trying to discover the magic formula for profit. As you said, many subscribers churn streamers regularly as they often want to see only one or a few shows. Many of which are only 8-12 episodes long. The “churn” adds to the capital loss “burn.”

    I recall one estimate of accumulated streaming burn to date of about $30+ billion, all in. A lot of the detail is included in the overall results for other media ownership assets like cable, print, film/TV production or in the case of Apple and Google, online ad businesses.

    What that has bought is a large steaming pile of not much watched streamed programs. Some very popular, most not. As expensive as most film productions, not as cheap as most TV productions.

    All of the executives of these media outfits predict a future turnaround, but this refrain has been sung for all prior years. Now of course, ads being dumped on paying subscribers. How is that better than cable (no ads) or even Old School broadcast TV?

    Streamers now adding exclusive sports, but again very expensive and most will have ads.

    Where do the billions come from? Investors. Yes, start up services often lose a lot at first, but these media outfits aren’t startups in streaming. Films, TV, cable, etc. is old tech. Streaming is now old tech.

    Theatrical films are also in the toilet. Often more expensive than streaming (per hour, for certain) but unless blockbusters or multiple film franchises, barely break even or lose money. Specialty audiences like for black films do okay but only for major stars.

    If you have an “argument” for streaming being profitable, let’s hear it. I haven’t seen it, which is why these WSJ articles seem so dire.

    If you have the magic formula, let us know. Disney may soon want to contact you…

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Muggles


    Netflix, the pioneer here, has had only two profitable years in the past 11 or so.
     
    As the first mover we really need to pin down dates for Netflix. How did their capex burn go? That included placing a lot of caching servers in ISP facilities which was a win for both, and the more that was done the less they paid for transmission to the ISPs. Getting blackmailed by some of the ISPs was also right out, since the latter had paying customers demanding the content.

    When did they start losing their rented IP catalog and when did that become acute (probably not a simple answer for the 2010s based on Wikipedia)? There's also a discoverability own goal in their UI, and the heavy hand of wokeness in crowdsourced scoring and maybe recommendations.

    Glancing at the Wikipedia page "In 2016, Netflix released an estimated 126 original series or films, more than any other network or cable channel." So it looks like your eleven year mostly lack of profitability profile includes the period when they were bleeding IP and not replacing it well, and then it worse and worse ("What if Kyle Rittenhouse was black?" "Woah woah what they're already doing a Netflix adaptation?").

    Also unforgivable cheapness in one way, series were I'm told always canceled when they got popular enough for the actors to have bargaining power.

    If you have the magic formula, let us know. Disney may soon want to contact you…
     
    What, you're asking me to write a script for The Iger Sanction?

    My formula as previously implied requires a great deal of bankruptcy and consolidation, and good content. Disney needs if not is headed for the former, and right now demonstrably would rather burn to the ground its good franchises like Star Wars than make money from them. We can't separate the general streaming issue from the general industry wide bad content one.

    OK, how about subbed anime 24x7 along with nationwide mandatory Japanese instruction including cultural education? If you're asking me to solve an problem that's impossible for the forseable future, I can supply you with impossible and/or impractical solutions that still in some theory might work!
  64. One explanation is that the staff at Horace Mann make it their business to get their alumni into top tier universities and the staff at Stuyvesant don’t.

    I wonder how civil service retirement works in this case. For example, do the better public school teachers retire after 20 years and go to work at Horace Mann.

  65. @Steve Sailer
    @Recently Based

    H-Y-P-S are quite generous with financial aid / discounts to middle income families although they prefer to admit the rich and the poor. I don't believe the next tier down private schools are that lavish.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    Exactly agree. I was trying to point out that there are important gradations within “elite” colleges with respect to almost everything, including net cost.

  66. Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    Do you think the typical Tiger mom wants their kid to pick SUNY Binghamton over UPenn? Need based aid, even at lower tier ivies, is pretty good. The limiting factor is AA not admitting Asians not a lack of interest or financial capability.

  67. @guest007
    @Jack D

    According to collegeresults, Harvard is 9% black and that includes all of the recent immigrants from Africa or the children of recent immigrants. However, Harvard is 18% Asians. And that does not count the 15% of the student body who are international students.

    Replies: @Prester John

    Interesting. H is also 20% Jewish. If you combine Asians and Jews we’re talking no more than 5% of the US population yet, they comprise almost 40% of the student body of Harvard!

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Prester John

    Just so.

    As far as I can tell, white gentiles are the most under-represented group of anything approaching their size at elite American colleges.

  68. @Muggles
    @That Would Be Telling


    I’d like you to defend that.
     
    While I'm not obligated to defend my comment about 'streaming today being economically unsustainable', your subsequent post comments go a long way to making that.

    I read the WSJ daily and for the past 18 months or so they have run lengthy articles about streaming, Netflix and recently, Disney.

    From memory, the recent coverage of the Disney shakeup mentions a $9 + billion accumulated loss so far on all of their streaming channels (they own most of Hulu also). The most recent annual loss about $1.3 billion. Worldwide Disney has the most paid subscribers, something like 135 million.

    Netflix, the pioneer here, has had only two profitable years in the past 11 or so. So still not turning a profit. The others are much newer and I don't have a ready breakdown of Discovery, Paramount, etc. results. Most of those have been recently combined or added into larger media conglomerates. The streaming segments have lost money.

    The industry is trying to discover the magic formula for profit. As you said, many subscribers churn streamers regularly as they often want to see only one or a few shows. Many of which are only 8-12 episodes long. The "churn" adds to the capital loss "burn."

    I recall one estimate of accumulated streaming burn to date of about $30+ billion, all in. A lot of the detail is included in the overall results for other media ownership assets like cable, print, film/TV production or in the case of Apple and Google, online ad businesses.

    What that has bought is a large steaming pile of not much watched streamed programs. Some very popular, most not. As expensive as most film productions, not as cheap as most TV productions.

    All of the executives of these media outfits predict a future turnaround, but this refrain has been sung for all prior years. Now of course, ads being dumped on paying subscribers. How is that better than cable (no ads) or even Old School broadcast TV?

    Streamers now adding exclusive sports, but again very expensive and most will have ads.

    Where do the billions come from? Investors. Yes, start up services often lose a lot at first, but these media outfits aren't startups in streaming. Films, TV, cable, etc. is old tech. Streaming is now old tech.

    Theatrical films are also in the toilet. Often more expensive than streaming (per hour, for certain) but unless blockbusters or multiple film franchises, barely break even or lose money. Specialty audiences like for black films do okay but only for major stars.

    If you have an "argument" for streaming being profitable, let's hear it. I haven't seen it, which is why these WSJ articles seem so dire.

    If you have the magic formula, let us know. Disney may soon want to contact you...

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Netflix, the pioneer here, has had only two profitable years in the past 11 or so.

    As the first mover we really need to pin down dates for Netflix. How did their capex burn go? That included placing a lot of caching servers in ISP facilities which was a win for both, and the more that was done the less they paid for transmission to the ISPs. Getting blackmailed by some of the ISPs was also right out, since the latter had paying customers demanding the content.

    When did they start losing their rented IP catalog and when did that become acute (probably not a simple answer for the 2010s based on Wikipedia)? There’s also a discoverability own goal in their UI, and the heavy hand of wokeness in crowdsourced scoring and maybe recommendations.

    Glancing at the Wikipedia page “In 2016, Netflix released an estimated 126 original series or films, more than any other network or cable channel.” So it looks like your eleven year mostly lack of profitability profile includes the period when they were bleeding IP and not replacing it well, and then it worse and worse (“What if Kyle Rittenhouse was black?” “Woah woah what they’re already doing a Netflix adaptation?”).

    Also unforgivable cheapness in one way, series were I’m told always canceled when they got popular enough for the actors to have bargaining power.

    If you have the magic formula, let us know. Disney may soon want to contact you…

    What, you’re asking me to write a script for The Iger Sanction?

    My formula as previously implied requires a great deal of bankruptcy and consolidation, and good content. Disney needs if not is headed for the former, and right now demonstrably would rather burn to the ground its good franchises like Star Wars than make money from them. We can’t separate the general streaming issue from the general industry wide bad content one.

    OK, how about subbed anime 24×7 along with nationwide mandatory Japanese instruction including cultural education? If you’re asking me to solve an problem that’s impossible for the forseable future, I can supply you with impossible and/or impractical solutions that still in some theory might work!

  69. @Mr. Peabody
    @Voltarde

    Well... Hitler was a vegan.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    “Well… Hitler was a vegan.”

    Vegetarian, not vegan.

  70. @Muggles
    @Anon

    "The Woke is stronger in you now!" sez Cameron. Avatar II sounds like desperation.

    Disney is in chaos due to Iger's bullying and something like $8 billion (!) in accumulated streaming losses there since inception. Now he's back in the saddle.

    Normally the sequels deteriorate quickly in succession. This seems par for the course...

    Since culture appears to be past Peak Woke, Disney is just milking this purple (cash) cow for bucks.

    When the first film has a novel characteristic it can attract large appreciative audiences. The second, more of the same, reduces audiences and often disappoints them.

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Like Electric Vehicles and flying cars, streaming is a pay TV fad that is an economically unsustainable. Unlike EVs, no government subsidies (so far).

    The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included.

    It is a particularly bad time for streaming since the Woke mania for talent-less women and non Whites is being pushed far beyond their capabilities for Hollywood brownie points. These projects often result in smaller audiences. Few pay monthly streaming fees merely to see them.

    The two part (so far) Wakanda films are an exception since Blacks! have responded with Tyler Perry enthusiasm. But they won't support streaming TV to any great degree. Even a Wakanda streamed series wouldn't generate much monthly revenue.

    What is to be done with Disney's (and others) multi billion dollar inventory of dead streaming content? Sooner or later to recoup costs, streaming will have large tiers of ad sponsored non-pay free streaming channels. And perhaps eventually over-the-air broadcast ad TV stations showing this content.

    Shareholders in a relatively free market will not sustain billions in product losses for very long.

    Big name directors/creators are only as valuable as their last successful project.

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse, @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

    Disney will probably now make a streaming Avatar series of mostly CGI content, like the Star Wars dreck, but unwatchable by adults and higher IQ types. Probably aimed at a children audience.

    Which will give them a COPPA feel.

  71. @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar

    A smoot is an impossibly racist unit of measurement. We have the curie as unit of radiation but apparently that is for Pierre, not Marie. Otherwise, most units are named for (mostly dead) white males (although Smoot lives). We need to rename all units in honor of black females. If these black females have no scientific accomplishments we can just imagine them and it's just as good. For example, the smoot could be renamed the katherine in honor of Katherine Johnson. Preferably we could find a black female who is around 5'7" so we wouldn't need to recalibrate all the smoots but if necessary these measurements could be done by white men while black females are getting some well deserved rest from their emotional toil. The meter could be renamed the shuri in honor of the non-existent Wakandan scientist. The unit equal to 100 kilograms (220 lbs.) could be renamed the oprah, for obvious reasons. "How many oprahs do you think that refrigerator weighs?" I'm sure if we look hard enough, many SI units are named in honor of white men who were racist, sexist, etc. and deserve to have these honors taken away from them and bestowed on a black female. Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    That picture was from 1958. Was everything they’re wearing manufactured right there in Massachusetts?

    There were dress factories in my hometown into the 1970s. My mother and grandmother worked part-time at one.

  72. @Old Prude
    @Anon

    O/T to your O/T: I was in Cabela's with Mrs. Prude yesterday looking for size 32-30 pants. Lots of 42-30. Found some 50-30. Good Lord! Both Prudes could fit in those! Sorry, Stan Adams, but 50-30 is not a good thing.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    My local Walmart here in flyover country has not only XL, but 2XL and 3XL sizes in clothes, and customers that need them. Slim people are a rarity. Even the kids are fat.

  73. @ambercat
    Wash. U. pretty well-rep'd in NYC medical circles, less certain about undergrads, certainly not law or business schools.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    My sister went to Wash U. for Physical Therapy, the basic degree for which was a baccalaureate then. (Now it’s a professsional Doctorate; in some period in between a Master’s I think.) Up there with Harvard and Johns Hopkins for Medicine. OK undergrad and Law.

  74. @Hypnotoad666
    If you're asking why a 70% Asian school isn't better represented, isn't Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    Replies: @guest007, @ic1000, @Bardon Kaldlan, @Hibernian

    At some point employers will say, I don’t want those Ivy Leaguers, and I’m sure a bunch already have.

  75. @Stolen Valor Detective
    Note that a lot of the Stuy kids going to CUNY/SUNY are going into honors programs there, with scholarships.

    I don't really understand NYU. As Steve has perceptively noted, it's really intelligently taken advantage of NYC's excess of human capital. However, it just seems like it's at a terrible point on the cost/prestige trade-off curve to me. It's considerably less prestigious than HYPS, but considerably more expensive than a state university.

    Replies: @Jack D, @kaganovitch

    I don’t really understand NYU. As Steve has perceptively noted, it’s really intelligently taken advantage of NYC’s excess of human capital. However, it just seems like it’s at a terrible point on the cost/prestige trade-off curve to me. It’s considerably less prestigious than HYPS, but considerably more expensive than a state university.

    Yves Smith memorably described it as “a real estate development/management business with a predatory higher-education side venture”. For a deep dive into how predatory see

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/05/the-art-of-the-gouge-nyu-as-a-model-for-predatory-higher-education.html

  76. @MagyarDiak
    While we’re on the topic of elite high schools and college admissions, does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?

    Is it simply that they view test prep as a multi year exercise, starting with Kumon in 5th grade and culminating with the SAT junior year in HS, having started prepping for the PSAT in 7th grade?

    While white parents see the PSAT prep as a maximum of 3 months of preparation immediately before taking it?

    Anyone have any good info on precisely what Asians do differently than whites when it comes to this? And why whites are or aren’t imitating such methods?

    Replies: @Inverness, @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?

    This was extensively discussed on iSteve here recently. The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn’t discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an “aptitude” test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.

    Thing is, competitive colleges pay close attention to what predicts success, so they noticed the SAT losing much if not most of its predictive value and adjusted their admissions process. As a for instance, the ACT wasn’t even accepted by MIT when I applied in the late 1970s. By 2000 plus or minus it noticed the ACT had better predictive value than the SAT. As I recall the ACT in the 1970s was a combined aptitude and achievement test, and cheaper to take than the SAT and a few of its org’s achievement tests. Perfectly fine for mid-difficultly state schools that liked it back then.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling


    The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn’t discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an “aptitude” test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.
     
    You got it backwards. By compressing the right tail end of the scores, the new SAT, in effect, was designed to reduce the gap between Asians and the rest (but particularly whites). Unfortunately, new Asian arrivals (mostly Indians who are now 25% or so of Asians in America) today are even more selected educationally than past immigrant cohorts and their children are pulling away even more despite the score compression at the top.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    , @MagyarJoDiak
    @That Would Be Telling

    I know that in the SAT, Asians have recently far outpaced all other ethnic groups — is that pattern or that magnitude not the same for ACT?

    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  77. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re had been a dynastic marriage or two between the Wongs and the Stuyvesants.

  78. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Meanwhile,

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/star-high-school-athletes-can-now-profit-nil-deals-rcna51075

    In case you thought athletics couldn't possibly corrupt education any further, there's still a good ways to go.

    Replies: @njguy73

    NIL is great if you’re a pretty female gymnast who can take in seven figures posting pics for drooling simps. But what is NIL to a second-string lineman who’s only at college so they have a shot at the NFL?

    • Replies: @Truth
    @njguy73

    https://fortune.com/2021/07/21/bryce-young-nil-deals-endorsements-name-image-likeness-ncaa-sponsors-nick-saban/

    Replies: @njguy73

  79. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    Who is “we”? The taxpayers of NYC are mostly not white goyim.

  80. For a poor to middling family, a kid with a STEM batchelors degree can support himself right out of school. Not so with an art history BS degree from an Ivy.

    I’m surprised to not see any Florida schools in the list. I sure heard a lot of Yankee accents when I went to U. of Florida in the 70s.

  81. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    Yes, it should be, but what used to be the USA has been invaded and colonized by foreigners with the collaboration of damnable white liberals.

  82. @ic1000
    @Hypnotoad666

    > If you’re asking why a 70% Asian school isn’t better represented, isn’t Ivy League discrimination against Asians the rather obvious elephant in the room?

    I read that Aaron Chalfin thread (Link, again). From my follows etc., the algorithm guessed I'd find the topic of interest, and I did.

    Chalfin comes across as smart, diligent, and numerate in an iStevey way. When other smart people wrote in with reasoned counterpoints, he replied. So in multiple ways, this is Twitter living up to its potential.

    Notably, Chalfin made no mention of the racial or ethnic breakdown of either student body. When a correspondent posted some numbers, his reply was along the lines of "interesting". Elephant in the room, indeed.

    One salient fact is that only a low-single-digit percentage (1%?) of either school is black. So this natural experiment is not another instance of the first-order effects of the massive thumb on the scale in favor of that racial group.

    Perhaps if anti-Asian bias in university admissions had recently been in the news, Chalfin would have considered that [/sarc].

    A remaining unknown is the fraction of each student body that is ethnically Jewish. Another is the breakdown of university matriculation along race/ethnicity lines. E.g. where did Horace Mann's (likely upper class) East Asians go, cf. where Stuyvesant's (working class?) counterparts went?

    Beyond the practical and sensible 'network effects' Steve discusses, there are obvious advantages for a strapped family to have a child stay nearby. LIRR train fare to Stony Brook costs less than a flight to Chicago. And I suspect a significant plurality of Stuyvesant's grads continue to live at home to save money.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Steve Sailer

    NYU is right next to Manhattan’s Chinatown so students can walk from home to classes.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    Manhattan Chinatown is small and mostly businesses and old people. The housing stock sucks. NY has about 9 "Chinatowns" now, the biggest other 2 being Flushing, Queens and Sunset Park, Brooklyn.

    https://ny.eater.com/2019/2/25/18236523/chinatowns-restaurants-elmhurst-homecrest-bensonhurst-east-village-little-neck-forest-hills-nyc

    NY has a great subway system designed to bring people into the center which means that anyone from any borough can get to Manhattan.

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Steve Sailer

    Chinatown is mostly Cantonese and Fujianese speaking prole immigrants. The Chinese that can afford NYU tuition live on campus or nearby Greenwich Village. Quite a lot are Mandarin-speaking well-heeled PRC students who are categorized as "International" rather than "Asian".


    NYU suggests that international students make up about 27.6% of the student body.

     

    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/new-york-university/student-life/international/

    This is true across the board where a lot of American univs "look more Asian" than the Asian percentage indicate. Because they take in a lot students from PRC, which also happens to be US' second biggest debtor (after Japan).

    Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    Yes a lot well-off Chinese Americans still grift off of social services beyond need. But also quite a lot pay high real estate taxes in expensive suburban school districts (in addition to paying high income taxes obviously).

  83. @AnotherDad

    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.
     

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well.

    The frontier closed in the 1880s, and America's borders were already well set with our neighbors by then. America hasn't needed any immigrants for 140+ and certainly does not a single one now.

    It's just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.

    Obviously, long term it is the low end that is the huge problem--we no longer have a natural process to cull defective/mediocre genes from our populace. But the huge immigrant subsidies--paid for self-displacement of Americans--at the high end is rancid as well.

    Imagine a sane, foresighted America where any immigrants did not vote, did not have access to elite opportunities, did not write editorials in our leading papers, did not babble as talking heads on TV ... until they or their ancestors had married into the American core, served in the military, worked their way up with productive labor--has actually mentally and physically thrown in with us and behaves like an actually loyal American?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @George

    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    This struck me as well… It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.

    No, you just fell for Steve Sailer’s dog whistling about Asians and colleges.

    If Asians go to elite private schools, it’s “all these grinder Asians are taking spots at elite universities and are striving to climb the ladder! Alien overlords!” If they go to public schools, it’s “all these ‘calculating and unsentimental” Asians think the public should pay for their kids’ schooling!” Frankly, it’s heads I win, tails I lose bullshit.

    What’s really going on here is this: whether Asian or white, if you can put kids in elite private schools, you do, because that dramatically increases the odds of them getting into elite universities. Why? It used to be the argued that it was because the private school (high-income) kids were academically better students. But that’s not true these days (as the respective SAT averages at Horace Mann and Stuyvesant show). Elite universities these days prefer students who hail from upscale families, period. All this “holistic” admissions talk is simply a ruse to populate the schools with upscale kids and some token blacks and browns who pose no competitive threats in terms of education or career to those very upscale whites, in lieu of highly competitive downscale students, whether whites from rural Kansas or Asians from grimy Flushing, Queens.

    Notwithstanding Mr. Sailer’s Stuyvesant obsession, I’ve long argued that public magnets such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Sci, and Thomas Jefferson are not “elite” – they are merely for gifted, but poorer (and, yes, increasingly immigrant) students – while the truly elite high schools were and are the likes of St. Alban’s, National Cathedral, Andover, Exeter, etc. But you don’t see Mr. Sailer punching up at this crowd.

    What this Horace Mann vs. Stuyvesant situation demonstrates has little to do with Asians or race, but is rather an issue of class, that is now the hallmark of elite “education.” After all, Horace Mann is also 20% Asian, but they are from the elite point’s of view, “our kind of Asians,” not the grubby ones at Stuy whose parents work at garment factories or grocery stores.

    My own personal story exemplifies this. I graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1980’s. Although I was not an immigrant (my father was a minor diplomat stationed at a consulate in NYC), my parents couldn’t afford to send me to a private high school and college. So I went to Stuy (I was one of the top 20 test takers in the whole city my year) and onto the Ivies. And where do my three older kids who are high school age go to school? In one of these public magnets? No, after being homeschooled through middle school, they attend parochial schools that cost $40,000 a year each (yes, I currently spend $120,000 a year on the first three kids on high school alone – once they go to colleges, I will be paying for colleges, minus anyone who attends a service academy, and the next set of kids in high school at $40,000 each). In other words, I’ve become “our kind of Asian” from the elite perspective.

    And, yes, I pay a monstrous amount of property taxes to finance the public schools (in three different counties) on top of paying for the private schools. It has nothing to do with being white or Asian – I’m just economically upper class now. That’s it, period.

    And, despite all this leech talk from Mr. Sailer, Asians in America, per capita, are a net benefit for the public purse, even more so than whites. They have the lowest entitlement use rates and highest tax payout rates, followed by whites (Hispanics are mild net consumers while blacks, predictably, are the biggest sinkhole of public money), meaning they contribute the most per capita to the public purse among all the races despite the fact that whites have the most wealth per capita!

    I oppose further immigration, including from Asia, but if you, as I do, want no more immigration from Asia (and elsewhere), use the right arguments – don’t invent made-up ones that can be easily disproven.

    • Replies: @Jack P
    @Twinkie

    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alden

    , @Truth
    @Twinkie

    Tell'um Twinx;

    Eventually they gon' start hearin' you!

    , @Alden
    @Twinkie

    Agree when my sister’s oldest was applying to college they went to a big college application fair. Where the colleges sell their schools to kids and parents. Sister ran into an old friend who was acting as an alumni rep for their old college. Invited him for dinner.

    He told them exactly what kind of White kids colleges want. Very rich White parents who will give big tax deductible donations as well as paying full tuition.

    Colleges at all levels are the enemy of Whites.

  84. @That Would Be Telling
    @MagyarDiak


    does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?
     
    This was extensively discussed on iSteve here recently. The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn't discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an "aptitude" test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.

    Thing is, competitive colleges pay close attention to what predicts success, so they noticed the SAT losing much if not most of its predictive value and adjusted their admissions process. As a for instance, the ACT wasn't even accepted by MIT when I applied in the late 1970s. By 2000 plus or minus it noticed the ACT had better predictive value than the SAT. As I recall the ACT in the 1970s was a combined aptitude and achievement test, and cheaper to take than the SAT and a few of its org's achievement tests. Perfectly fine for mid-difficultly state schools that liked it back then.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @MagyarJoDiak

    The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn’t discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an “aptitude” test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.

    You got it backwards. By compressing the right tail end of the scores, the new SAT, in effect, was designed to reduce the gap between Asians and the rest (but particularly whites). Unfortunately, new Asian arrivals (mostly Indians who are now 25% or so of Asians in America) today are even more selected educationally than past immigrant cohorts and their children are pulling away even more despite the score compression at the top.

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Twinkie

    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations for changing the SAT in the early 1990s?

    (Not meant as a snide question -- I've just been curious about this for some time.)

    Thanks

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Corvinus

  85. @Bragadocious
    Stuyvesant grads don't need to go to prestige schools. Their Stuyvesant diploma will always be the turbocharger on their resumes. Ever notice how Stuyvesant grads, like Harvard grads, always tell you where they went to school?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Stuyvesant grads don’t need to go to prestige schools. Their Stuyvesant diploma will always be the turbocharger on their resumes. Ever notice how Stuyvesant grads, like Harvard grads, always tell you where they went to school?

    I wish. In elite circles, a Stuy diploma simply means you grew up poorly. It means nothing. What you want is an Andover, Exeter, or St. Alban’s diploma. And you don’t have to put it in your resume, because you are already networked with elite alums and their world-ruling parents.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Twinkie

    Forget about it Twinkie. The men of UNZ have never heard of Deerfield Groton Milton Lawrenceville Choate Farmington St Paul’s or any of the top private high schools in the east coast or anywhere else. .

  86. @That Would Be Telling
    @MagyarDiak


    does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?
     
    This was extensively discussed on iSteve here recently. The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn't discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an "aptitude" test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.

    Thing is, competitive colleges pay close attention to what predicts success, so they noticed the SAT losing much if not most of its predictive value and adjusted their admissions process. As a for instance, the ACT wasn't even accepted by MIT when I applied in the late 1970s. By 2000 plus or minus it noticed the ACT had better predictive value than the SAT. As I recall the ACT in the 1970s was a combined aptitude and achievement test, and cheaper to take than the SAT and a few of its org's achievement tests. Perfectly fine for mid-difficultly state schools that liked it back then.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @MagyarJoDiak

    I know that in the SAT, Asians have recently far outpaced all other ethnic groups — is that pattern or that magnitude not the same for ACT?

    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @MagyarJoDiak

    My reply covered just about everything relevant I know or more likely have heard about the ACT. Don't have anywhere to point you at for more info, as I recall we focused on the SAT in our previous iSteve discussions, but I might be forgetting something since like a lot of us the SAT we took way back when was our touchstone.


    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?
     
    It having started out as a combined aptitude and achievement test, I'd expect it to be easier to prep for due to the achievement part. But I don't know how it has been changed since that data point for MIT a fair number of years ago when it had better predictive power than the SAT at the time.

    Replies: @Alden

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @MagyarJoDiak

    Cram schools have older history in East Asian countries,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_school
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juku

    They were called 私塾 (c: sīshú j: shijuku しじゅく) "private schools", where kids cram Confucian classics for the imperial exams.

    For the Chinese this discontinued after the imperial system was abolished in 1905. For the Japanese some evolved to become 蘭学塾 rangaku juku "Netherland learning schools" then further on evolved into modern universities. This one was the predecessor to top-ranking Keio University.

    https://i.postimg.cc/PJh2yb2B/Keio-University-Tokyo-1869.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keio_Gijuku_(Gakkō_Hōjin)

    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  87. @Deckin
    @Arclight

    When I was a TA in Madison, I first was perplexed by all of the East Coast students, but, then, when it was explained to me, I merely marveled at it; if you're used to hijinks from the densely populated Eastern Seaboard, what could Madison have to offer besides beer? I guess the question answers itself.

    But, it's important to note that the Big Ten doesn't get the cream of that Eastern crop, by any means. They were typically extremely well to do (BMW already in hand), often annoying, and usually quite shallow.

    The real gems in the Big Ten, in my experience, were the in-state or reciprocity (Minnesota, etc.) students from modest backgrounds. You still do get kids from farms in Spooner WI and the like who completely blow you away with their cognitive abilities. This used to be celebrated, but now, not so much.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Thanks for this.

    My experience back in the day as a TA at a Big 10 school was much the same. As a nobody from a rural area myself, I was initially caught off guard by how many big-money big-city undergrads were appearing in my teaching sections. And, as you say, on the whole they were not that impressive: lots of know-it-alls who didn’t know all that much.

  88. Anonymous[203] • Disclaimer says:

    Hey, STEM work is not all gravy.

    One of my better friends graduated from Bronx High School of Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_High_School_of_Science), then from a second tier engineering Hell school. He was recruited into a major corporation that was stockpiling engineers and, after about two years of doing nothing while waiting for a contract to come thru, transferred to another major corp. that worked him so hard his marriage broke up. He then gave up, and moved to Newport, Rhode Island, USA, where he mixed defense computer programming with addictive drug dealing and lounge lizarding, at which point I lost touch with him. I’d guess that he died young, probably after being arrested at some point.

    It’s sort of like working for over a decade to find yourself in a profession (medicine, for example) with a suicide rate much above the welfare population, or possibly just unable to find a place to intern.

    Or, if you have no idea of what you are doing, you might become another Fauci, who apparently was too busy running a multi-billion dollar operation to pay any attention to professional reports on vaccine safety, COVID mortality, and the like.

    I’ll omit the Army phrase for rejecting such possible outcomes, but the outcomes really are not attractive.

    I’ll end with an English translation of poetry by the immortal Li Po (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai#Rapt_with_wine_and_moon)

    Other parents wish their children to be intelligent.
    I only hope that my child will be stupid and unimaginative.
    Thus may he ascend the Imperial bureaucracy
    and become a member of the Emperor’s personal cabinet!

    and another verse, this one from “Rising Drunk on a Spring Day”:
    I am so touched that I almost sigh,
    I turn to the wine, pour myself more,
    Then sing wildly, waiting for the moon,
    When the tune is done, I no longer care.

  89. @AnotherDad

    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.
     

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well.

    The frontier closed in the 1880s, and America's borders were already well set with our neighbors by then. America hasn't needed any immigrants for 140+ and certainly does not a single one now.

    It's just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.

    Obviously, long term it is the low end that is the huge problem--we no longer have a natural process to cull defective/mediocre genes from our populace. But the huge immigrant subsidies--paid for self-displacement of Americans--at the high end is rancid as well.

    Imagine a sane, foresighted America where any immigrants did not vote, did not have access to elite opportunities, did not write editorials in our leading papers, did not babble as talking heads on TV ... until they or their ancestors had married into the American core, served in the military, worked their way up with productive labor--has actually mentally and physically thrown in with us and behaves like an actually loyal American?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @George

    “But the huge immigrant subsidies–paid for self-displacement of Americans–at the high end is rancid as well.”

    Maybe, but the immigrant children, especially east Asian, are ending up in dental school, medical school, ect. They are the ones keeping the US going.

    I wonder where Stuyvesant vs Horace Mann end up professionally?

  90. I remember when Dick Cavett had a comedy routine about his days at Yale.

    He was a poor kid from Kansas and the BMOCs would ask to have their pictures taken with him.

  91. @Prester John
    @guest007

    Interesting. H is also 20% Jewish. If you combine Asians and Jews we're talking no more than 5% of the US population yet, they comprise almost 40% of the student body of Harvard!

    Replies: @Recently Based

    Just so.

    As far as I can tell, white gentiles are the most under-represented group of anything approaching their size at elite American colleges.

    • Agree: Prester John
  92. @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling


    The TL;DR: the SAT (we didn’t discuss the ACT much) was changed in the usual woke ways until as a side effect it became a test you could cram Northeast Asian style for, became a lie, no longer much of an “aptitude” test. Before 1993 (I think it was) it was a good IQ test, you could translate scores into IQs, and mine agreed with the one IQ test I was given while in high school.
     
    You got it backwards. By compressing the right tail end of the scores, the new SAT, in effect, was designed to reduce the gap between Asians and the rest (but particularly whites). Unfortunately, new Asian arrivals (mostly Indians who are now 25% or so of Asians in America) today are even more selected educationally than past immigrant cohorts and their children are pulling away even more despite the score compression at the top.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations for changing the SAT in the early 1990s?

    (Not meant as a snide question — I’ve just been curious about this for some time.)

    Thanks

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Recently Based


    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations
     
    I do not. I only surmise from the mechanics of how it was reconfigured and the effect of it at the right tail end of the scores (there are now many more "perfect" scores and the fine-grained distinctions at the highest end of the scores are gone).

    I don't think those involved in the change would be stupid enough to confess their motivations, which we cannot otherwise prove with certainty.
    , @Corvinus
    @Recently Based

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/03/27/sat-changes-name-but-it-wont-score-1600-with-critics/c8bf8809-2c0f-4582-9911-9e5f74ed4c6d/

  93. Washington U. in St. Louis is a fine college, but how likely is a NYC rich kid going to wind up in the St. Louis region hanging out with all your St. Louis-oriented friends?

    Other than the med school, which is consistently top five, WU is basically for St. Louisans and nearby Midwesterners whose ambitions are big but localized.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @countenance

    Maybe that was true in the past but nowadays Wash U. is ranked #15 in National Universities by US News (just behind Brown but ahead of Cornell) and draws from the same national applicant pool as the Ivy schools.

    Your chances of getting into even a lesser Ivy like Brown nowadays are less than 1 in 12 (7.7% acceptance rate) so the Easterners who once upon a time would have applied only to Ivies (pray for Harvard, expect to get into Cornell) have spread their options and now apply to Wash U., Vanderbilt, Rice, etc. because nowadays it’s more like Harvard – would need a miracle, Cornell – pray, Wash U. – somewhat likely (even Wash U. only has a 16% accept rate).

    Nowadays, if a rich NYC kid ends up at Wash U. (or Michigan, Chicago, Emory, etc.) he’s not going to be alone. He’s gonna have plenty of his HS buddies to hang out with so he won’t feel like he has been exiled to Siberia.

    That being said, almost every college (except for maybe the top 5) draws disproportionately from their local area. NYU and Columbia have lots of NYers.

  94. @SaneClownPosse
    @Muggles

    "The only recourse is more pay streaming with more paid advertising included."

    Amazon Prime has the Freevee channel, that has numerous breaks for delivering ad content that cannot be skipped. Mute the sound.

    Back to the fifties and sixties, pre VCR times.

    More content on Amazon is now in pay to play channels with monthly subscription fees.

    Replies: @Ralph L

    Pluto TV is free with ads, but since the election, the great majority of the ads are for Pluto channels, so I don’t know how they profit. It’s the same ads, over and over. The shows repeat, too, and they don’t publish a schedule except an hour or two in advance. You get what you pay for.

  95. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    Just an FYI, Bardon Kaldian is an established, intelligent commenter, though maybe not my cup of tea.

    Bardon Kaldlan has two L’s in his name. He’s a halfwit. At best, choosing a name so close to an established commenter’s handle is not very kosher.

    • Agree: William Badwhite
    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Rob

    I know. I bought a new tablet,so as a joke I used this handle. When I tried to change it,it wouldn't let me.
    It was not worth worrying about.
    Your concern is noted. But you're gay.

  96. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    Peter Stuyvesant was an immigrant… And a handicap.

  97. Most upper class whites in NYC who put their kids in private schools are probably Jews. WASPs are gradually dying out in Manhattan. Jews will always have the Jew network wherever they go to college. It’s what the Hillel and LGBTQ Support Centers are for.

    Indiana U. of Bloomington is a big party school with a big greek culture. It’s where all the (((Manhattan socialites))) are flocking to these days.

  98. @Recently Based
    @Spangel226

    As always, there's elite and there's elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford's tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel226, @International Jew, @Alden

    This is probably also an important factor for why stuy kids go to Harvard in large numbers but not Wash u.

  99. @Steve Sailer
    @ic1000

    NYU is right next to Manhattan's Chinatown so students can walk from home to classes.

    Replies: @Jack D, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Manhattan Chinatown is small and mostly businesses and old people. The housing stock sucks. NY has about 9 “Chinatowns” now, the biggest other 2 being Flushing, Queens and Sunset Park, Brooklyn.

    https://ny.eater.com/2019/2/25/18236523/chinatowns-restaurants-elmhurst-homecrest-bensonhurst-east-village-little-neck-forest-hills-nyc

    NY has a great subway system designed to bring people into the center which means that anyone from any borough can get to Manhattan.

  100. @Steve Sailer
    @ic1000

    NYU is right next to Manhattan's Chinatown so students can walk from home to classes.

    Replies: @Jack D, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Chinatown is mostly Cantonese and Fujianese speaking prole immigrants. The Chinese that can afford NYU tuition live on campus or nearby Greenwich Village. Quite a lot are Mandarin-speaking well-heeled PRC students who are categorized as “International” rather than “Asian”.

    NYU suggests that international students make up about 27.6% of the student body.

    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/new-york-university/student-life/international/

    This is true across the board where a lot of American univs “look more Asian” than the Asian percentage indicate. Because they take in a lot students from PRC, which also happens to be US’ second biggest debtor (after Japan).

    Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.

    Yes a lot well-off Chinese Americans still grift off of social services beyond need. But also quite a lot pay high real estate taxes in expensive suburban school districts (in addition to paying high income taxes obviously).

  101. @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Hypnotoad666

    My question,why are we supporting a top flight HS...for foreigners??
    It was PETER Stuyvesant,if memory serves,🙄not Wong Lo Stuyvesant. Shouldn't this school be for white,goyim white,kids??

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Jack D, @CalCooledge, @Rob, @Truth, @Jack D

    BTW, your racist shtick has been going on since the days of the original Peter Stuyvesant. When the 1st Jews landed in New Amsterdam (refugees from a Dutch colony in S. America that had recently been conquered by the Portuguese), Stuyvesant wrote to his bosses at the Dutch West India Company (New Amsterdam was a company town) asking to expel the “deceitful,” “very repugnant,” “hateful enemies and blasphemers of the name of Christ.” (But being Dutch, he asked if he could do so “in a friendly way”- LOL).

    His bosses wrote back and told him, as much as they would like to do so, the Company had a number of important shareholders and directors who were Jewish who they could not piss off, so no can do, Pete – the Jews gotta stay.

    So far the modern day Jews of NY don’t have the mojo to get Pete’s name removed from everything but they are working on it::

    https://nypost.com/2017/08/24/jewish-activists-target-removal-of-peter-stuyvesant-monuments/

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan
    @Jack D

    A stitch in time saves nine,they say.
    I sometimes wonder if the Euros had been more proactive about the rats they brought to the New World,maybe they could've stamped em out,before they took hold.
    But they didn't care and look at NYC today,overrun .
    With rats,I mean.😉

  102. @MagyarJoDiak
    @That Would Be Telling

    I know that in the SAT, Asians have recently far outpaced all other ethnic groups — is that pattern or that magnitude not the same for ACT?

    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    My reply covered just about everything relevant I know or more likely have heard about the ACT. Don’t have anywhere to point you at for more info, as I recall we focused on the SAT in our previous iSteve discussions, but I might be forgetting something since like a lot of us the SAT we took way back when was our touchstone.

    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?

    It having started out as a combined aptitude and achievement test, I’d expect it to be easier to prep for due to the achievement part. But I don’t know how it has been changed since that data point for MIT a fair number of years ago when it had better predictive power than the SAT at the time.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @That Would Be Telling

    More and more colleges including the Ivies no longer require SAT submissions.

  103. @MagyarJoDiak
    @That Would Be Telling

    I know that in the SAT, Asians have recently far outpaced all other ethnic groups — is that pattern or that magnitude not the same for ACT?

    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Cram schools have older history in East Asian countries,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_school
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juku

    They were called 私塾 (c: sīshú j: shijuku しじゅく) “private schools”, where kids cram Confucian classics for the imperial exams.

    For the Chinese this discontinued after the imperial system was abolished in 1905. For the Japanese some evolved to become 蘭学塾 rangaku juku “Netherland learning schools” then further on evolved into modern universities. This one was the predecessor to top-ranking Keio University.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keio_Gijuku_(Gakkō_Hōjin)

    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.
     
    For Japan, while if you're going to be in the low risk, high reward part of the economy the single most important thing is your college entrance exam, I see a greater role in how that part keeps the young from accomplishing much until they've aged out of their most creative years. This is particularly acute in science, where the typical some time after WWII path to a Nobel is to self-exile outside of Japan to be able to do your research.

    Not sure the high risk, low reward part of Japan's economy suffers from a lack of creativity, but I don't think those of us outside the country see much of that besides things like hand made tools and cultural artifacts (beware of energy stealing monsters running your cram school). The other sector is of course government, which has a very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles; imagine reaching retirement age only to find it lost your Social Security records. That got some people knifed.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  104. @countenance
    Washington U. in St. Louis is a fine college, but how likely is a NYC rich kid going to wind up in the St. Louis region hanging out with all your St. Louis-oriented friends?

    Other than the med school, which is consistently top five, WU is basically for St. Louisans and nearby Midwesterners whose ambitions are big but localized.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Maybe that was true in the past but nowadays Wash U. is ranked #15 in National Universities by US News (just behind Brown but ahead of Cornell) and draws from the same national applicant pool as the Ivy schools.

    Your chances of getting into even a lesser Ivy like Brown nowadays are less than 1 in 12 (7.7% acceptance rate) so the Easterners who once upon a time would have applied only to Ivies (pray for Harvard, expect to get into Cornell) have spread their options and now apply to Wash U., Vanderbilt, Rice, etc. because nowadays it’s more like Harvard – would need a miracle, Cornell – pray, Wash U. – somewhat likely (even Wash U. only has a 16% accept rate).

    Nowadays, if a rich NYC kid ends up at Wash U. (or Michigan, Chicago, Emory, etc.) he’s not going to be alone. He’s gonna have plenty of his HS buddies to hang out with so he won’t feel like he has been exiled to Siberia.

    That being said, almost every college (except for maybe the top 5) draws disproportionately from their local area. NYU and Columbia have lots of NYers.

  105. @MagyarDiak
    While we’re on the topic of elite high schools and college admissions, does anyone know exactly how Asians have dramatically pulled away from the rest of the ethnic pack with their SAT/ACT scores?

    Is it simply that they view test prep as a multi year exercise, starting with Kumon in 5th grade and culminating with the SAT junior year in HS, having started prepping for the PSAT in 7th grade?

    While white parents see the PSAT prep as a maximum of 3 months of preparation immediately before taking it?

    Anyone have any good info on precisely what Asians do differently than whites when it comes to this? And why whites are or aren’t imitating such methods?

    Replies: @Inverness, @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    White people admire “naturals” – you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing. Overpreparing, studying too much or trying too hard is seen as a negative – “nerdy”. You are supposed to be “well rounded” so if you are spending too much time in cram school instead of playing sports (even though you have zero chance of being a professional athlete) that’s bad.

    The Asian cultural view puts a big emphasis on preparation – everyone has the ability to do math or whatever, so if you aren’t doing well it must be because you aren’t trying hard enough and should do some more problem sets.

    Neither view is really ideal but it’s hard to argue with the results that Asians are getting.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Jack D

    Not one of the Ivy League schools requires SATs anymore. Suspended because of covid hoax allegedly. But extended through the fall 2024 class. Harvard extended till fall class of 2026.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    , @TelfoedJohn
    @Jack D


    White people admire “naturals” – you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing.
     
    This is the Western sprezzatura ideal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura

    The Eastern opposite can be seen in the offices of China, Korea, and Japan, where people will ostentatiously try to look busy by fast-walking to the photocopier, fidgeting with a spreadsheet, or working a bit later than everyone else.
  106. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @MagyarJoDiak

    Cram schools have older history in East Asian countries,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_school
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juku

    They were called 私塾 (c: sīshú j: shijuku しじゅく) "private schools", where kids cram Confucian classics for the imperial exams.

    For the Chinese this discontinued after the imperial system was abolished in 1905. For the Japanese some evolved to become 蘭学塾 rangaku juku "Netherland learning schools" then further on evolved into modern universities. This one was the predecessor to top-ranking Keio University.

    https://i.postimg.cc/PJh2yb2B/Keio-University-Tokyo-1869.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keio_Gijuku_(Gakkō_Hōjin)

    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.

    For Japan, while if you’re going to be in the low risk, high reward part of the economy the single most important thing is your college entrance exam, I see a greater role in how that part keeps the young from accomplishing much until they’ve aged out of their most creative years. This is particularly acute in science, where the typical some time after WWII path to a Nobel is to self-exile outside of Japan to be able to do your research.

    Not sure the high risk, low reward part of Japan’s economy suffers from a lack of creativity, but I don’t think those of us outside the country see much of that besides things like hand made tools and cultural artifacts (beware of energy stealing monsters running your cram school). The other sector is of course government, which has a very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles; imagine reaching retirement age only to find it lost your Social Security records. That got some people knifed.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @That Would Be Telling

    self-exile outside of Japan

    Right, one of their most prominent mathematicians Mochizuki Shinichi 望月新一 is know for being a recluse. He also has a Jewish mother and went to Phillips Exeter and Princeton (but PhD in Japan).

    The Chinese mathematician famous for proving a version of the twin primes conjecture, Zhang Yitang, preferred to work at as a cashier in the US while doing his research on the side, rather than go back to PRC and be a more marginal professor-- there its much more status-obsessed.

    (Crowd is the untruth-- Søren Kierkegaard)

    very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster-- which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    That said, there's some misunderstandings of Japanese history, Keio Gijuku was founded by samurai Fukuzawa Yukichi 福澤諭吉 who's on the 10,000 yen bill. He wrote very critical of Qing China and Joseon Korea as backwards and despotic, and look to the West as a superior model to follow.

    The Chinese often accuse him of laying the intellectual foundation of "selling out other Asians to become honorary whites". But here we are, after a century of trials and tribulation, both PRC and DPRK have reverted to the imperial system.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @tamo, @Anonymous

  107. Michigan is public so HM grads are 17.5 out of 20 private (and as you mentioned it’s unlikely they’re attending the Cornell state related schools).

    There are also LOTS of Michigan alums in the Northeast. There’s a big network. And you have great football, basketball and hockey teams to follow, unlike at a SUNY.

  108. @Twinkie
    @AnotherDad



    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well... It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.
     
    No, you just fell for Steve Sailer's dog whistling about Asians and colleges.

    If Asians go to elite private schools, it's "all these grinder Asians are taking spots at elite universities and are striving to climb the ladder! Alien overlords!" If they go to public schools, it's "all these 'calculating and unsentimental" Asians think the public should pay for their kids' schooling!" Frankly, it's heads I win, tails I lose bullshit.

    What's really going on here is this: whether Asian or white, if you can put kids in elite private schools, you do, because that dramatically increases the odds of them getting into elite universities. Why? It used to be the argued that it was because the private school (high-income) kids were academically better students. But that's not true these days (as the respective SAT averages at Horace Mann and Stuyvesant show). Elite universities these days prefer students who hail from upscale families, period. All this "holistic" admissions talk is simply a ruse to populate the schools with upscale kids and some token blacks and browns who pose no competitive threats in terms of education or career to those very upscale whites, in lieu of highly competitive downscale students, whether whites from rural Kansas or Asians from grimy Flushing, Queens.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/nj/2016/1/13/how-to-get-more-smart-low-income/3-percent.png

    Notwithstanding Mr. Sailer's Stuyvesant obsession, I've long argued that public magnets such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Sci, and Thomas Jefferson are not "elite" - they are merely for gifted, but poorer (and, yes, increasingly immigrant) students - while the truly elite high schools were and are the likes of St. Alban's, National Cathedral, Andover, Exeter, etc. But you don't see Mr. Sailer punching up at this crowd.

    What this Horace Mann vs. Stuyvesant situation demonstrates has little to do with Asians or race, but is rather an issue of class, that is now the hallmark of elite "education." After all, Horace Mann is also 20% Asian, but they are from the elite point's of view, "our kind of Asians," not the grubby ones at Stuy whose parents work at garment factories or grocery stores.

    My own personal story exemplifies this. I graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1980's. Although I was not an immigrant (my father was a minor diplomat stationed at a consulate in NYC), my parents couldn't afford to send me to a private high school and college. So I went to Stuy (I was one of the top 20 test takers in the whole city my year) and onto the Ivies. And where do my three older kids who are high school age go to school? In one of these public magnets? No, after being homeschooled through middle school, they attend parochial schools that cost $40,000 a year each (yes, I currently spend $120,000 a year on the first three kids on high school alone - once they go to colleges, I will be paying for colleges, minus anyone who attends a service academy, and the next set of kids in high school at $40,000 each). In other words, I've become "our kind of Asian" from the elite perspective.

    And, yes, I pay a monstrous amount of property taxes to finance the public schools (in three different counties) on top of paying for the private schools. It has nothing to do with being white or Asian - I'm just economically upper class now. That's it, period.

    And, despite all this leech talk from Mr. Sailer, Asians in America, per capita, are a net benefit for the public purse, even more so than whites. They have the lowest entitlement use rates and highest tax payout rates, followed by whites (Hispanics are mild net consumers while blacks, predictably, are the biggest sinkhole of public money), meaning they contribute the most per capita to the public purse among all the races despite the fact that whites have the most wealth per capita!

    I oppose further immigration, including from Asia, but if you, as I do, want no more immigration from Asia (and elsewhere), use the right arguments - don't invent made-up ones that can be easily disproven.

    Replies: @Jack P, @Truth, @Alden

    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Jack P


    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.
     
    I do “live in an upscale suburb with high quality public schools” - why do you think I pay through the nose in property taxes? My zip code is one of the premier “super zips” in the country.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Alden
    @Jack P

    Way to cover high school tuition is set up tax deductible educational trust funds and non profits. And give the kids scholarships. I don’t handle major money so I don’t know the details. I’m sure any accountant could tell you.

    Or could probably put the kid on the payroll as a laborer clerk or janitor.Pay the kid kid pays the school. Employee salaries are subtracted from gross profit so it’s another tax deduction.

  109. What’s the point of White men wanking away about the Asians in a NYC public high school? Even if it is Stuyvesant ? Especially White men who live hundreds and thousands of miles away from NYC.

    I have friends who go back to NYC for family events. Standard NYC joke;

    Q What’s the language least spoken in NYC?
    A English

    The American Bar Association credentials law school. Wants to drop the LSAT entrance exam requirement. In favor of holistic admissions.

    Merit requirements ended in 1968. Before many men of UNZ were even born. So why discuss it? It’s done.

    Every company in America from Fortune 500 to the smallest companies are absolutely committed to not hiring White men. And never promoting White men already employed. And firing every White man who displays insensitivity to Shitaviois ‘ sensibilities.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Alden


    Standard NYC joke;

    Q What’s the language least spoken in NYC?
    A English
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI

    Aldey, that has to be your first attempt at humor... and I mean not just on this site, in you life!
  110. Horace Mann is very Jewish – their high Ivy percentage might be due to ethnic nepotism.

    Note that median SAT at Sty is likely significantly higher versus Horace Mann. also note APs rate at Sty are way way higher than HM.

    But …. Neither compare to Hunter High School. 🙂

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anon

    The Ivies have suspended SAT submissions allegedly because of covid. They will reconsider after fall 2024. Expect Harvard. SATs Suspended till fall class of 2026.

    Two oldest grandkids high school
    seniors last year. Neither they nor any classmates and friends even took the SATs.

    It’s almost 2023 not 1963 when SATs were important.

    How a White kid gets into college nowadays.

    1 check the black box

    2 parents changed surname to a common Hispanic surname before kid started grade school.

  111. @Recently Based
    @Spangel226

    As always, there's elite and there's elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford's tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel226, @International Jew, @Alden

    Stanford’s tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K

    Not if you also have a solid net worth — like the kind you ought to have if you’re approaching retirement age (and you didn’t work for the government). Stanford (and its ilk) have their own ideas about how much you need for a comfortable retirement, and they’d like to separate you from anything you have in excess of that.

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @International Jew

    That's an excellent point -- they have weasel wording in there about assets commensurate with this income.

    Replies: @International Jew

  112. @njguy73
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    NIL is great if you're a pretty female gymnast who can take in seven figures posting pics for drooling simps. But what is NIL to a second-string lineman who's only at college so they have a shot at the NFL?

    Replies: @Truth

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Truth

    That'd my point. NIL mainly benefits the small number of superstars in college sports.

    For decades college sports was called legal indentured servitude. Players were punished for holding low paying jobs. And endorsing products? No way. They were expected to be happy amateurs. There was major clamoring to let players get paid.

    Now it's such that apps pay the players so the colleges don't have to. Pretty soon college athletes won't need to go to the Olympics or the NFL. They make their million in college. Instead of being a 24-year-old gymnast putting herself through Hell for a gold medal or a 24-year-old quarterback getting his brain rattled in the NFL, they can retire on NIL money at 22.

    The Olympics and the NFL won't die out, they just won't have the big names. It'll be made up of those who didn't get NIL riches.

  113. @Twinkie
    @AnotherDad



    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well... It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.
     
    No, you just fell for Steve Sailer's dog whistling about Asians and colleges.

    If Asians go to elite private schools, it's "all these grinder Asians are taking spots at elite universities and are striving to climb the ladder! Alien overlords!" If they go to public schools, it's "all these 'calculating and unsentimental" Asians think the public should pay for their kids' schooling!" Frankly, it's heads I win, tails I lose bullshit.

    What's really going on here is this: whether Asian or white, if you can put kids in elite private schools, you do, because that dramatically increases the odds of them getting into elite universities. Why? It used to be the argued that it was because the private school (high-income) kids were academically better students. But that's not true these days (as the respective SAT averages at Horace Mann and Stuyvesant show). Elite universities these days prefer students who hail from upscale families, period. All this "holistic" admissions talk is simply a ruse to populate the schools with upscale kids and some token blacks and browns who pose no competitive threats in terms of education or career to those very upscale whites, in lieu of highly competitive downscale students, whether whites from rural Kansas or Asians from grimy Flushing, Queens.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/nj/2016/1/13/how-to-get-more-smart-low-income/3-percent.png

    Notwithstanding Mr. Sailer's Stuyvesant obsession, I've long argued that public magnets such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Sci, and Thomas Jefferson are not "elite" - they are merely for gifted, but poorer (and, yes, increasingly immigrant) students - while the truly elite high schools were and are the likes of St. Alban's, National Cathedral, Andover, Exeter, etc. But you don't see Mr. Sailer punching up at this crowd.

    What this Horace Mann vs. Stuyvesant situation demonstrates has little to do with Asians or race, but is rather an issue of class, that is now the hallmark of elite "education." After all, Horace Mann is also 20% Asian, but they are from the elite point's of view, "our kind of Asians," not the grubby ones at Stuy whose parents work at garment factories or grocery stores.

    My own personal story exemplifies this. I graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1980's. Although I was not an immigrant (my father was a minor diplomat stationed at a consulate in NYC), my parents couldn't afford to send me to a private high school and college. So I went to Stuy (I was one of the top 20 test takers in the whole city my year) and onto the Ivies. And where do my three older kids who are high school age go to school? In one of these public magnets? No, after being homeschooled through middle school, they attend parochial schools that cost $40,000 a year each (yes, I currently spend $120,000 a year on the first three kids on high school alone - once they go to colleges, I will be paying for colleges, minus anyone who attends a service academy, and the next set of kids in high school at $40,000 each). In other words, I've become "our kind of Asian" from the elite perspective.

    And, yes, I pay a monstrous amount of property taxes to finance the public schools (in three different counties) on top of paying for the private schools. It has nothing to do with being white or Asian - I'm just economically upper class now. That's it, period.

    And, despite all this leech talk from Mr. Sailer, Asians in America, per capita, are a net benefit for the public purse, even more so than whites. They have the lowest entitlement use rates and highest tax payout rates, followed by whites (Hispanics are mild net consumers while blacks, predictably, are the biggest sinkhole of public money), meaning they contribute the most per capita to the public purse among all the races despite the fact that whites have the most wealth per capita!

    I oppose further immigration, including from Asia, but if you, as I do, want no more immigration from Asia (and elsewhere), use the right arguments - don't invent made-up ones that can be easily disproven.

    Replies: @Jack P, @Truth, @Alden

    Tell’um Twinx;

    Eventually they gon’ start hearin’ you!

  114. @Alden
    What’s the point of White men wanking away about the Asians in a NYC public high school? Even if it is Stuyvesant ? Especially White men who live hundreds and thousands of miles away from NYC.

    I have friends who go back to NYC for family events. Standard NYC joke;

    Q What’s the language least spoken in NYC?
    A English

    The American Bar Association credentials law school. Wants to drop the LSAT entrance exam requirement. In favor of holistic admissions.

    Merit requirements ended in 1968. Before many men of UNZ were even born. So why discuss it? It’s done.

    Every company in America from Fortune 500 to the smallest companies are absolutely committed to not hiring White men. And never promoting White men already employed. And firing every White man who displays insensitivity to Shitaviois ‘ sensibilities.

    Replies: @Truth

    Standard NYC joke;

    Q What’s the language least spoken in NYC?
    A English

    Aldey, that has to be your first attempt at humor… and I mean not just on this site, in you life!

  115. @Recently Based
    @Spangel226

    As always, there's elite and there's elite.

    The tippy-top schools tend to be cheaper than public university alternatives for even people of moderate incomes. As one example, Stanford's tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K.

    https://admission.stanford.edu/afford/#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20all%20Stanford,income%20level%20pay%20no%20tuition.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel226, @International Jew, @Alden

    Hmmm I should ask Brandon, son in law’s nephew about that. And his grandparents. Grandparents who paid his tuition from kindergarten through Stanford. Always better to ask someone who graduated from Stanford about 4 years ago about Stanford tuition.

    Than rely on links provided by someone who lives in the internet.

    Stuyvesant high school who cares. Especially as it’s now an asian immigrant school..

  116. @Jack D
    @MagyarDiak

    White people admire "naturals" - you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing. Overpreparing, studying too much or trying too hard is seen as a negative - "nerdy". You are supposed to be "well rounded" so if you are spending too much time in cram school instead of playing sports (even though you have zero chance of being a professional athlete) that's bad.

    The Asian cultural view puts a big emphasis on preparation - everyone has the ability to do math or whatever, so if you aren't doing well it must be because you aren't trying hard enough and should do some more problem sets.

    Neither view is really ideal but it's hard to argue with the results that Asians are getting.

    Replies: @Alden, @TelfoedJohn

    Not one of the Ivy League schools requires SATs anymore. Suspended because of covid hoax allegedly. But extended through the fall 2024 class. Harvard extended till fall class of 2026.

    • Replies: @Recently Based
    @Alden

    It's required if you're white or Asian and go to a private r good public school, if you want to have any chance of getting in without some massive hook.

    It's only actually not required where they will not accept it from anyone (e.g., UC).

    Replies: @Alden

  117. You said “In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.”

    I guess that’s why America has tons of creative and intelligent black citizens.
    As usual, you are full of crap, lol !!!

  118. @Jack P
    @Twinkie

    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alden

    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.

    I do “live in an upscale suburb with high quality public schools” – why do you think I pay through the nose in property taxes? My zip code is one of the premier “super zips” in the country.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    I live in a different superzip and IIRC, something like 40% of the students attend non-public schools, even though the school system is one of the best in the state. In fact one of the reasons that the school system is so good is that they have fewer kids to educate and can spend more $ on each one.

    We split the difference and did public school thru grade 5 and private schools the rest of the way. My wife felt strongly about sending them to private school - she felt that the quality of the education was better and she was in a professional position to know. I would have been OK with public school. My kids I think are better writers than they would have been with a public school education. They made some good friends. They mostly liked their teachers, some of whom seemed to be really interesting people. They both got into top colleges. Would they have gotten into those same schools from public school? Maybe, maybe not. Their inheritances are going to be a little smaller but hey, it's only money. Money comes and goes but you only have one childhood. How much did I spend on tuition? It's like JP Morgan's yacht (it wouldn't have been enough for a yacht but it could have been a pretty damn nice boat, not that I like boats) - if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie, @Truth

  119. @Jack P
    @Twinkie

    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Alden

    Way to cover high school tuition is set up tax deductible educational trust funds and non profits. And give the kids scholarships. I don’t handle major money so I don’t know the details. I’m sure any accountant could tell you.

    Or could probably put the kid on the payroll as a laborer clerk or janitor.Pay the kid kid pays the school. Employee salaries are subtracted from gross profit so it’s another tax deduction.

  120. @Twinkie
    @AnotherDad



    Stuyvesant is a STEM-focused public New York high school that admits solely on admission test score. It’s about 70% Asian, often poorer immigrant children. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    Also, well-to-do white people tend to assume it’s their duty to not only pay their taxes but also to pay huge amounts of money to send their kids to private high schools and colleges, while Asian immigrants tend to assume American taxpayers should pay to educate their kids.
     
    This struck me as well... It’s just amazing the huge subsidies, huge wealth transfers to immigrants.
     
    No, you just fell for Steve Sailer's dog whistling about Asians and colleges.

    If Asians go to elite private schools, it's "all these grinder Asians are taking spots at elite universities and are striving to climb the ladder! Alien overlords!" If they go to public schools, it's "all these 'calculating and unsentimental" Asians think the public should pay for their kids' schooling!" Frankly, it's heads I win, tails I lose bullshit.

    What's really going on here is this: whether Asian or white, if you can put kids in elite private schools, you do, because that dramatically increases the odds of them getting into elite universities. Why? It used to be the argued that it was because the private school (high-income) kids were academically better students. But that's not true these days (as the respective SAT averages at Horace Mann and Stuyvesant show). Elite universities these days prefer students who hail from upscale families, period. All this "holistic" admissions talk is simply a ruse to populate the schools with upscale kids and some token blacks and browns who pose no competitive threats in terms of education or career to those very upscale whites, in lieu of highly competitive downscale students, whether whites from rural Kansas or Asians from grimy Flushing, Queens.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/nj/2016/1/13/how-to-get-more-smart-low-income/3-percent.png

    Notwithstanding Mr. Sailer's Stuyvesant obsession, I've long argued that public magnets such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Sci, and Thomas Jefferson are not "elite" - they are merely for gifted, but poorer (and, yes, increasingly immigrant) students - while the truly elite high schools were and are the likes of St. Alban's, National Cathedral, Andover, Exeter, etc. But you don't see Mr. Sailer punching up at this crowd.

    What this Horace Mann vs. Stuyvesant situation demonstrates has little to do with Asians or race, but is rather an issue of class, that is now the hallmark of elite "education." After all, Horace Mann is also 20% Asian, but they are from the elite point's of view, "our kind of Asians," not the grubby ones at Stuy whose parents work at garment factories or grocery stores.

    My own personal story exemplifies this. I graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1980's. Although I was not an immigrant (my father was a minor diplomat stationed at a consulate in NYC), my parents couldn't afford to send me to a private high school and college. So I went to Stuy (I was one of the top 20 test takers in the whole city my year) and onto the Ivies. And where do my three older kids who are high school age go to school? In one of these public magnets? No, after being homeschooled through middle school, they attend parochial schools that cost $40,000 a year each (yes, I currently spend $120,000 a year on the first three kids on high school alone - once they go to colleges, I will be paying for colleges, minus anyone who attends a service academy, and the next set of kids in high school at $40,000 each). In other words, I've become "our kind of Asian" from the elite perspective.

    And, yes, I pay a monstrous amount of property taxes to finance the public schools (in three different counties) on top of paying for the private schools. It has nothing to do with being white or Asian - I'm just economically upper class now. That's it, period.

    And, despite all this leech talk from Mr. Sailer, Asians in America, per capita, are a net benefit for the public purse, even more so than whites. They have the lowest entitlement use rates and highest tax payout rates, followed by whites (Hispanics are mild net consumers while blacks, predictably, are the biggest sinkhole of public money), meaning they contribute the most per capita to the public purse among all the races despite the fact that whites have the most wealth per capita!

    I oppose further immigration, including from Asia, but if you, as I do, want no more immigration from Asia (and elsewhere), use the right arguments - don't invent made-up ones that can be easily disproven.

    Replies: @Jack P, @Truth, @Alden

    Agree when my sister’s oldest was applying to college they went to a big college application fair. Where the colleges sell their schools to kids and parents. Sister ran into an old friend who was acting as an alumni rep for their old college. Invited him for dinner.

    He told them exactly what kind of White kids colleges want. Very rich White parents who will give big tax deductible donations as well as paying full tuition.

    Colleges at all levels are the enemy of Whites.

  121. @Anon
    Horace Mann is very Jewish - their high Ivy percentage might be due to ethnic nepotism.

    Note that median SAT at Sty is likely significantly higher versus Horace Mann. also note APs rate at Sty are way way higher than HM.

    But …. Neither compare to Hunter High School. :)

    Replies: @Alden

    The Ivies have suspended SAT submissions allegedly because of covid. They will reconsider after fall 2024. Expect Harvard. SATs Suspended till fall class of 2026.

    Two oldest grandkids high school
    seniors last year. Neither they nor any classmates and friends even took the SATs.

    It’s almost 2023 not 1963 when SATs were important.

    How a White kid gets into college nowadays.

    1 check the black box

    2 parents changed surname to a common Hispanic surname before kid started grade school.

  122. @Twinkie
    @Jack P


    I would think probably better long term to pay to live in an upscale suburb with high-quality public schools than to pay 40K per year for high school.
     
    I do “live in an upscale suburb with high quality public schools” - why do you think I pay through the nose in property taxes? My zip code is one of the premier “super zips” in the country.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I live in a different superzip and IIRC, something like 40% of the students attend non-public schools, even though the school system is one of the best in the state. In fact one of the reasons that the school system is so good is that they have fewer kids to educate and can spend more $ on each one.

    We split the difference and did public school thru grade 5 and private schools the rest of the way. My wife felt strongly about sending them to private school – she felt that the quality of the education was better and she was in a professional position to know. I would have been OK with public school. My kids I think are better writers than they would have been with a public school education. They made some good friends. They mostly liked their teachers, some of whom seemed to be really interesting people. They both got into top colleges. Would they have gotten into those same schools from public school? Maybe, maybe not. Their inheritances are going to be a little smaller but hey, it’s only money. Money comes and goes but you only have one childhood. How much did I spend on tuition? It’s like JP Morgan’s yacht (it wouldn’t have been enough for a yacht but it could have been a pretty damn nice boat, not that I like boats) – if you have to ask, you can’t afford it.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Truth
    @Jack D

    Nice, subtle.

    Strangely, I put your post into the google English to Ebonics translator, and a video came up on the Ebonics side.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO22Z0T3qPE

    , @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    They both got into top colleges.
     
    Your kids are Jewish. Don't think they won their spots fair and square.

    My older kids may go to $40K a year parochial high schools now (and it's more for values, not "education"), but they grew up with the children of black and Hispanic enlisted in Hampton Roads and puddling in mud piles with poor kids in Appalachia. They know how to build a house from scratch, how to skin and eat snakes, and how to sleep without a sleeping bag on a mountaintop without freezing to death.

    It doesn't matter whether your kids went to a public middle school or a private high school - they were reared in Main Line privilege.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Truth
    @Jack D


    they grew up with the children of black and Hispanic enlisted in Hampton Roads and puddling in mud piles with poor kids in Appalachia. They know how to build a house from scratch, how to skin and eat snakes, and how to sleep without a sleeping bag on a mountaintop without freezing to death.

    It doesn’t matter whether your kids went to a public middle school or a private high school – they were reared in Main Line privilege
     
    Damn, Jack, Twinx just Minority-Trumped you. I'm surprised he didn't go into you father Maury the Podiatrist, and how he walked 15 miles to school through rice patties in Ok-Po as a kid... Uphill both ways.

    I thought the Khazars and Slants was a natural match?

    He went straight Bebe Moore Campbell on this post...

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205368.Your_Blues_Ain_t_Like_Mine
  123. @That Would Be Telling
    @MagyarJoDiak

    My reply covered just about everything relevant I know or more likely have heard about the ACT. Don't have anywhere to point you at for more info, as I recall we focused on the SAT in our previous iSteve discussions, but I might be forgetting something since like a lot of us the SAT we took way back when was our touchstone.


    Are you also saying that ACT is harder to prep for because it requires less rote memorization?
     
    It having started out as a combined aptitude and achievement test, I'd expect it to be easier to prep for due to the achievement part. But I don't know how it has been changed since that data point for MIT a fair number of years ago when it had better predictive power than the SAT at the time.

    Replies: @Alden

    More and more colleges including the Ivies no longer require SAT submissions.

  124. @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    I live in a different superzip and IIRC, something like 40% of the students attend non-public schools, even though the school system is one of the best in the state. In fact one of the reasons that the school system is so good is that they have fewer kids to educate and can spend more $ on each one.

    We split the difference and did public school thru grade 5 and private schools the rest of the way. My wife felt strongly about sending them to private school - she felt that the quality of the education was better and she was in a professional position to know. I would have been OK with public school. My kids I think are better writers than they would have been with a public school education. They made some good friends. They mostly liked their teachers, some of whom seemed to be really interesting people. They both got into top colleges. Would they have gotten into those same schools from public school? Maybe, maybe not. Their inheritances are going to be a little smaller but hey, it's only money. Money comes and goes but you only have one childhood. How much did I spend on tuition? It's like JP Morgan's yacht (it wouldn't have been enough for a yacht but it could have been a pretty damn nice boat, not that I like boats) - if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie, @Truth

    Nice, subtle.

    Strangely, I put your post into the google English to Ebonics translator, and a video came up on the Ebonics side.

  125. @Anonymous
    @Jack D


    zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs)
     
    Is it zero? Or not just in top 20? Also, why don’t Stuy kids like Columbia?

    Replies: @Alden

    Columbia really really recruits out of state. It wants to be a national school, not just a New York tri state area school. There’s enough smart kids in NYC to fill Columbia. But Columbia wants a nation wide and international student body.

  126. @That Would Be Telling
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    In any case I think this is a system that stifles creativity compare to the more sports-oriented American/European one.
     
    For Japan, while if you're going to be in the low risk, high reward part of the economy the single most important thing is your college entrance exam, I see a greater role in how that part keeps the young from accomplishing much until they've aged out of their most creative years. This is particularly acute in science, where the typical some time after WWII path to a Nobel is to self-exile outside of Japan to be able to do your research.

    Not sure the high risk, low reward part of Japan's economy suffers from a lack of creativity, but I don't think those of us outside the country see much of that besides things like hand made tools and cultural artifacts (beware of energy stealing monsters running your cram school). The other sector is of course government, which has a very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles; imagine reaching retirement age only to find it lost your Social Security records. That got some people knifed.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    self-exile outside of Japan

    Right, one of their most prominent mathematicians Mochizuki Shinichi 望月新一 is know for being a recluse. He also has a Jewish mother and went to Phillips Exeter and Princeton (but PhD in Japan).

    The Chinese mathematician famous for proving a version of the twin primes conjecture, Zhang Yitang, preferred to work at as a cashier in the US while doing his research on the side, rather than go back to PRC and be a more marginal professor– there its much more status-obsessed.

    (Crowd is the untruth— Søren Kierkegaard)

    very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    That said, there’s some misunderstandings of Japanese history, Keio Gijuku was founded by samurai Fukuzawa Yukichi 福澤諭吉 who’s on the 10,000 yen bill. He wrote very critical of Qing China and Joseon Korea as backwards and despotic, and look to the West as a superior model to follow.

    The Chinese often accuse him of laying the intellectual foundation of “selling out other Asians to become honorary whites”. But here we are, after a century of trials and tribulation, both PRC and DPRK have reverted to the imperial system.

    • Thanks: ic1000, Inverness
    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.
     
    OMG. What a catastrophic misjudgement that's likely to kill this winter and maybe going forward.

    I and a few engineer friends watch these sorts of things, and we concluded long before Fukushima that Japan's safety culture was entirely inadequate to do anything nuclear.

    Well, I suppose this might not include "graduate student proof" research reactors to make short lived isotopes for medicine, and perhaps they're OK with heavy duty gamma ray sources for industry and medicine, those also have pretty clear operating procedures. But of course past a certain post-WWII point they'd probably insist on making those themselves, so we're back to the deep seated cultural problems. For a hint as how bad this can be, see the Japan Air Lines Flight 123 debacle.

    Sure, Boeing unforgivably screwed up the rear bulkhead repair, but that something was wrong was evident long before it gave way, and again a situation where the authorities would rather let tens to hundreds of subjects die than to I assume lose face.

    So Japan had a number of incidents prior to Fukushima that prompted us to come to this conclusion. We should note this isn't a general Northeast Asian problem, for the PRC has 53 reactors with a nameplate 55.6 GW of output, and South Korea 23, 20.5 GW, that's 22% of their generation capacity. Also once knew a fresh from the PRC grad student studying NukeE at MIT and I'd trust him to run a plant. Sure, some lower level incidents very possibly have happened and been covered up, but nothing close to Fukushima where gross release of isotopes means you can't hide it.

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie

    , @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    From the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution, China was one of the most creative and inventive and richest countries in the world. According to a well-respected Sinologist, Robert Temple, more than half the basic inventions and discoveries that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came from China.

    China only fell behind Europe with the coming of the Industrial Revolution. The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it's status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.

    On the other hand, unlike creative and innovative China before the Industrial Revolution, Japan was a only copycat. Japan copied Chinese civilization wholeheartedly in premodern times. For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.

    Japanese culture like those of Korea and Vietnam, is an offshoot of Chinese civilization.

    Even though Japan learned some useful things from Portuguese and Dutch in premodern times. it was not until the 19th century that Japan started copying from Europeans and Americans in earnest.

    Although Japan made a lot of incremental technological innovations starting 1970s, Japan has been mostly a follower than a leader in it's history.

    By the way, my post 117 is directed at you.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Jack D

    , @Anonymous
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.
     
    Germany's government went public with its complete nuclear phase-out plan in 2011, shortly after the convenient March 11, 2011 earthquake/tsunami and the subsequent destruction of several nuclear power plants in Fukushima.

    Media reports do not indicate any in-depth, formal deliberation of this fundamental change of economic fundamentals, nor is there much interest in revising the 2011 "plan" in light of drastically higher costs for fossil fuels in 2022.

    Germany's chancelor at the time, Angela Merkel, is alleged to have studied physics in East Germany.

  127. @Truth
    @njguy73

    https://fortune.com/2021/07/21/bryce-young-nil-deals-endorsements-name-image-likeness-ncaa-sponsors-nick-saban/

    Replies: @njguy73

    That’d my point. NIL mainly benefits the small number of superstars in college sports.

    For decades college sports was called legal indentured servitude. Players were punished for holding low paying jobs. And endorsing products? No way. They were expected to be happy amateurs. There was major clamoring to let players get paid.

    Now it’s such that apps pay the players so the colleges don’t have to. Pretty soon college athletes won’t need to go to the Olympics or the NFL. They make their million in college. Instead of being a 24-year-old gymnast putting herself through Hell for a gold medal or a 24-year-old quarterback getting his brain rattled in the NFL, they can retire on NIL money at 22.

    The Olympics and the NFL won’t die out, they just won’t have the big names. It’ll be made up of those who didn’t get NIL riches.

  128. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @That Would Be Telling

    self-exile outside of Japan

    Right, one of their most prominent mathematicians Mochizuki Shinichi 望月新一 is know for being a recluse. He also has a Jewish mother and went to Phillips Exeter and Princeton (but PhD in Japan).

    The Chinese mathematician famous for proving a version of the twin primes conjecture, Zhang Yitang, preferred to work at as a cashier in the US while doing his research on the side, rather than go back to PRC and be a more marginal professor-- there its much more status-obsessed.

    (Crowd is the untruth-- Søren Kierkegaard)

    very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster-- which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    That said, there's some misunderstandings of Japanese history, Keio Gijuku was founded by samurai Fukuzawa Yukichi 福澤諭吉 who's on the 10,000 yen bill. He wrote very critical of Qing China and Joseon Korea as backwards and despotic, and look to the West as a superior model to follow.

    The Chinese often accuse him of laying the intellectual foundation of "selling out other Asians to become honorary whites". But here we are, after a century of trials and tribulation, both PRC and DPRK have reverted to the imperial system.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @tamo, @Anonymous

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    OMG. What a catastrophic misjudgement that’s likely to kill this winter and maybe going forward.

    I and a few engineer friends watch these sorts of things, and we concluded long before Fukushima that Japan’s safety culture was entirely inadequate to do anything nuclear.

    Well, I suppose this might not include “graduate student proof” research reactors to make short lived isotopes for medicine, and perhaps they’re OK with heavy duty gamma ray sources for industry and medicine, those also have pretty clear operating procedures. But of course past a certain post-WWII point they’d probably insist on making those themselves, so we’re back to the deep seated cultural problems. For a hint as how bad this can be, see the Japan Air Lines Flight 123 debacle.

    Sure, Boeing unforgivably screwed up the rear bulkhead repair, but that something was wrong was evident long before it gave way, and again a situation where the authorities would rather let tens to hundreds of subjects die than to I assume lose face.

    So Japan had a number of incidents prior to Fukushima that prompted us to come to this conclusion. We should note this isn’t a general Northeast Asian problem, for the PRC has 53 reactors with a nameplate 55.6 GW of output, and South Korea 23, 20.5 GW, that’s 22% of their generation capacity. Also once knew a fresh from the PRC grad student studying NukeE at MIT and I’d trust him to run a plant. Sure, some lower level incidents very possibly have happened and been covered up, but nothing close to Fukushima where gross release of isotopes means you can’t hide it.

    • Replies: @Somsel
    @That Would Be Telling

    As a nuclear engineer with decades of experience working with Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese nuclear programs, I can say they are not as good or or as tightly run as American program.

    They do details pretty well but the creators of nuclear power, Americans, still have the big picture.

    That's why the Asians bought American designs and why I get the Big Bucks for working with them.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling

    A close friend of my father's (both passed away years ago) was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident. He passed away from cancer (not that it means much - cancer is the number one cause of death among East Asians, I think).

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  129. @International Jew
    @Recently Based


    Stanford’s tuition is literally $0 for anyone with a family income of up to $150K
     
    Not if you also have a solid net worth -- like the kind you ought to have if you're approaching retirement age (and you didn't work for the government). Stanford (and its ilk) have their own ideas about how much you need for a comfortable retirement, and they'd like to separate you from anything you have in excess of that.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    That’s an excellent point — they have weasel wording in there about assets commensurate with this income.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Recently Based

    Yep, moreover lying on the FAFSA form is a criminal offense. So between that and the role of federal loans in supporting those sky-high tuitions, we already have in place the Dems' dream of instituting a wealth tax.

  130. @Rob
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    Just an FYI, Bardon Kaldian is an established, intelligent commenter, though maybe not my cup of tea.

    Bardon Kaldlan has two L’s in his name. He’s a halfwit. At best, choosing a name so close to an established commenter’s handle is not very kosher.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan

    I know. I bought a new tablet,so as a joke I used this handle. When I tried to change it,it wouldn’t let me.
    It was not worth worrying about.
    Your concern is noted. But you’re gay.

    • Troll: Renard
  131. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @That Would Be Telling

    self-exile outside of Japan

    Right, one of their most prominent mathematicians Mochizuki Shinichi 望月新一 is know for being a recluse. He also has a Jewish mother and went to Phillips Exeter and Princeton (but PhD in Japan).

    The Chinese mathematician famous for proving a version of the twin primes conjecture, Zhang Yitang, preferred to work at as a cashier in the US while doing his research on the side, rather than go back to PRC and be a more marginal professor-- there its much more status-obsessed.

    (Crowd is the untruth-- Søren Kierkegaard)

    very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster-- which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    That said, there's some misunderstandings of Japanese history, Keio Gijuku was founded by samurai Fukuzawa Yukichi 福澤諭吉 who's on the 10,000 yen bill. He wrote very critical of Qing China and Joseon Korea as backwards and despotic, and look to the West as a superior model to follow.

    The Chinese often accuse him of laying the intellectual foundation of "selling out other Asians to become honorary whites". But here we are, after a century of trials and tribulation, both PRC and DPRK have reverted to the imperial system.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @tamo, @Anonymous

    From the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution, China was one of the most creative and inventive and richest countries in the world. According to a well-respected Sinologist, Robert Temple, more than half the basic inventions and discoveries that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came from China.

    China only fell behind Europe with the coming of the Industrial Revolution. The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.

    On the other hand, unlike creative and innovative China before the Industrial Revolution, Japan was a only copycat. Japan copied Chinese civilization wholeheartedly in premodern times. For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.

    Japanese culture like those of Korea and Vietnam, is an offshoot of Chinese civilization.

    Even though Japan learned some useful things from Portuguese and Dutch in premodern times. it was not until the 19th century that Japan started copying from Europeans and Americans in earnest.

    Although Japan made a lot of incremental technological innovations starting 1970s, Japan has been mostly a follower than a leader in it’s history.

    By the way, my post 117 is directed at you.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    I'm of Chinese background and simply don't believe such cultural egotism. Much of what is supposedly "Chinese" actually isn't. China is "People's Republic of China" 中華人民共和国, an imported notion from Soviet Russia. 共和国 (kyōwakoku, republic) is a wasei-kango "Japanese-made Chinese word", as well as 共産党 (kyōsantō, communist party).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango

    Temple and Needham focuses on Song (11-13 CE) which is fair in that it was ahead of Europe, it was a tolerant period with many brilliant thinkers, (Imperial China 900-1800 by F.W. Mote if you want a book rec) many Chinese and Japanese intellectuals idealize Song Dynasty. What you don't know is that Song personifies a lot of Han Chinese fails:

    1. Effeminized men by shifting from a military-aristocratic elite to a scholar-bureaucratic elite.

    2. Launched aggressive war against Tangut Xia and got stomped.

    3. Allied with Jurchens to beat the Khitans, got stomped by Jurchens. Learns no lessons, allied with Mongols to beat Jurchens, got stomped again by Mongols.

    4. Was so corrupt that one of the Four Great Novels was about bros banding together to start rebellion set in the period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin

    If you know something about martial arts, Japan was never simply a copycat of China's.

    As for Korea, you are Korean if I'm correct, I'm interested in your thoughts about this. Korean history seem to depict Qing Invasion of Joseon (1636-7) as an equal calamity as Toyotomi's Invasion of Korea (1592-1598). The Joseon King was subjected to Three Kneels and Nine Kowtows to the Qing emperor. Joseon had to send "tribute girls" was kept in backwardness and poverty by the Qing.

    SK made a movie about this, The Fortress that highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society. A defector to the Qing told a senior yangban that because he was born as baekjeong he was never a Korean to begin with. I'm waiting for PRC to make an equally self-effacing movie about the Cultural Revolution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmkCKlzbhQ

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie, @tamo

    , @Jack D
    @tamo


    For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.
     
    Incomplete doesn't express it strongly enough as about 70% of Japanese is written in Chinese characters. OTOH, 100% of English is written using Roman characters. This doesn't mean that English civilization is inferior to the Roman.

    Japan and China occupy a position not unlike the UK and the Roman Empire (except that England was an actual colony of Rome and not just a tribute state like Japan). But Japan broke its tribute status in 1549 and since then has existed as a completely independent country. During that period, and especially after the opening to the West in the mid 19th century, Japan experienced rapid growth and industrialization while China was (and in some ways still is) pretty much a mess. Japan, almost uniquely among Asian countries, was able to thread the needle and become both fully Westernized and modernized and yet still traditional and Japanese.

    Saying that China was a great country before the Industrial Revolution is not saying much. You can't live in the past, especially if that past was hundreds of years ago.

    The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.
     
    Chinese "superpower" status is being achieved by authoritarian means. Authoritarian "superpowers" (the USSR, Nazi Germany, etc.) tend to be brittle - they are like cast iron - superficially they appear to be strong but they can shatter like glass. The current regime of China may or may not make it to 2050. It may or may not make it to next week.

    Japan OTOH is a stable democracy. It no longer has superpower pretensions but most Japanese live a happy life, economically prosperous and free from government repression.

    Replies: @tamo

  132. Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.

    That’s a lot of asians. Asians are very heavily represented in the wealthy, well connected elite. Asians in American benefit greatly from establishment institutional access and insider networking.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @ATBOTL


    That’s a lot of asians. Asians are very heavily represented in the wealthy, well connected elite. Asians in American benefit greatly from establishment institutional access and insider networking.
     
    If you mean South Asians, then yes. East Asians are mostly upper middle class (doctors, dentists, and engineers and such) and are not highly represented among the real elites. But even the South Asians are only at the cusp of their future dominance as of today (we get a little taste in the form of the chiefs of IT companies) and they still pale in comparison to the Jewish dominance.

    Replies: @Alden

  133. The Chinese here definitely feel entitled to the best of our schools for very little cost. Ironic in that back in China it’s test based and much of it paid for by the families. Top tier students are nearly forced to fight for admission to the best schools. Like it used to be here. Now everyone is a protected class but white men, so it’s a new world. That was a good point about why would NY rich kids leave the area? I typically thought it was those that wanted out from under their parents thumbs. I went 200 miles away so not too far. And transferred to 40 miles away. Still not home but close enough for comfort. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Stuy kids are sort of instilled with a bit of hatred for the Ivy League schools and system too. But I could be wrong.

  134. @That Would Be Telling
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.
     
    OMG. What a catastrophic misjudgement that's likely to kill this winter and maybe going forward.

    I and a few engineer friends watch these sorts of things, and we concluded long before Fukushima that Japan's safety culture was entirely inadequate to do anything nuclear.

    Well, I suppose this might not include "graduate student proof" research reactors to make short lived isotopes for medicine, and perhaps they're OK with heavy duty gamma ray sources for industry and medicine, those also have pretty clear operating procedures. But of course past a certain post-WWII point they'd probably insist on making those themselves, so we're back to the deep seated cultural problems. For a hint as how bad this can be, see the Japan Air Lines Flight 123 debacle.

    Sure, Boeing unforgivably screwed up the rear bulkhead repair, but that something was wrong was evident long before it gave way, and again a situation where the authorities would rather let tens to hundreds of subjects die than to I assume lose face.

    So Japan had a number of incidents prior to Fukushima that prompted us to come to this conclusion. We should note this isn't a general Northeast Asian problem, for the PRC has 53 reactors with a nameplate 55.6 GW of output, and South Korea 23, 20.5 GW, that's 22% of their generation capacity. Also once knew a fresh from the PRC grad student studying NukeE at MIT and I'd trust him to run a plant. Sure, some lower level incidents very possibly have happened and been covered up, but nothing close to Fukushima where gross release of isotopes means you can't hide it.

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie

    As a nuclear engineer with decades of experience working with Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese nuclear programs, I can say they are not as good or or as tightly run as American program.

    They do details pretty well but the creators of nuclear power, Americans, still have the big picture.

    That’s why the Asians bought American designs and why I get the Big Bucks for working with them.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Somsel

    My daughter, whose field is robotics, had some contact with the folks at Fukushima in the aftermath of the disaster. They were a bureaucratic ass covering nightmare to work with (and in the end her group ended up not working with them over petty nonsense - for example was their wifi router approved for use in Japan).

    Americans tend to be practical minded and willing to relax rules in a disaster. Saving lives is more important than following rules. The Asian mentality is seen in the recent fire in Xinjiang where people had to burn to death because covid lockdown rules were in effect. You couldn't let the firefighters into the building or let the occupants out because this would violate the lockdown rules. Americans have no problem cutting thru such Gordian knots with the sword of common sense but Asians tend to get hung up and freeze into inaction when presented with such knots - no one wants to take the risk of breaking the rules and being made the scapegoat if it doesn't work out.

    Replies: @tamo, @Alden

  135. @Recently Based
    @Twinkie

    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations for changing the SAT in the early 1990s?

    (Not meant as a snide question -- I've just been curious about this for some time.)

    Thanks

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Corvinus

    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations

    I do not. I only surmise from the mechanics of how it was reconfigured and the effect of it at the right tail end of the scores (there are now many more “perfect” scores and the fine-grained distinctions at the highest end of the scores are gone).

    I don’t think those involved in the change would be stupid enough to confess their motivations, which we cannot otherwise prove with certainty.

  136. @ATBOTL

    Horace Mann is a famous old expensive private school that’s about 20% Asian.
     
    That's a lot of asians. Asians are very heavily represented in the wealthy, well connected elite. Asians in American benefit greatly from establishment institutional access and insider networking.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    That’s a lot of asians. Asians are very heavily represented in the wealthy, well connected elite. Asians in American benefit greatly from establishment institutional access and insider networking.

    If you mean South Asians, then yes. East Asians are mostly upper middle class (doctors, dentists, and engineers and such) and are not highly represented among the real elites. But even the South Asians are only at the cusp of their future dominance as of today (we get a little taste in the form of the chiefs of IT companies) and they still pale in comparison to the Jewish dominance.

    • Agree: Renard
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Twinkie

    The men of UNZ think that the upper upper wealthiest elite consists of Drs and dentists making 200K a year, engineers making 120K a year and anyone with a JD and a state bar card members of the elite.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth, @Twinkie

  137. @That Would Be Telling
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.
     
    OMG. What a catastrophic misjudgement that's likely to kill this winter and maybe going forward.

    I and a few engineer friends watch these sorts of things, and we concluded long before Fukushima that Japan's safety culture was entirely inadequate to do anything nuclear.

    Well, I suppose this might not include "graduate student proof" research reactors to make short lived isotopes for medicine, and perhaps they're OK with heavy duty gamma ray sources for industry and medicine, those also have pretty clear operating procedures. But of course past a certain post-WWII point they'd probably insist on making those themselves, so we're back to the deep seated cultural problems. For a hint as how bad this can be, see the Japan Air Lines Flight 123 debacle.

    Sure, Boeing unforgivably screwed up the rear bulkhead repair, but that something was wrong was evident long before it gave way, and again a situation where the authorities would rather let tens to hundreds of subjects die than to I assume lose face.

    So Japan had a number of incidents prior to Fukushima that prompted us to come to this conclusion. We should note this isn't a general Northeast Asian problem, for the PRC has 53 reactors with a nameplate 55.6 GW of output, and South Korea 23, 20.5 GW, that's 22% of their generation capacity. Also once knew a fresh from the PRC grad student studying NukeE at MIT and I'd trust him to run a plant. Sure, some lower level incidents very possibly have happened and been covered up, but nothing close to Fukushima where gross release of isotopes means you can't hide it.

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie

    A close friend of my father’s (both passed away years ago) was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident. He passed away from cancer (not that it means much – cancer is the number one cause of death among East Asians, I think).

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie


    A close friend of my father’s ... was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident.
     
    You sure that wasn't from a steam, or electrocution etc. accident? There's lots more that's dangerous at power plants than what produces the raw heat. For a long time we pointed out there were no radioactivity deaths from civilian nuclear power production, but a couple of unfortunate men had died in a steam accident.

    Looking at Wikipedia's list I see four electrocuted, it doesn't include the two above, and at the same plant four died fourteen years later again to the same sort of accident. And a quarter century after the last of those, in 2013 "One worker was killed and two others injured when part of a generator fell as it was being moved at the Arkansas Nuclear One."

    Replies: @Twinkie

  138. @Recently Based
    @International Jew

    That's an excellent point -- they have weasel wording in there about assets commensurate with this income.

    Replies: @International Jew

    Yep, moreover lying on the FAFSA form is a criminal offense. So between that and the role of federal loans in supporting those sky-high tuitions, we already have in place the Dems’ dream of instituting a wealth tax.

  139. @Twinkie
    @ATBOTL


    That’s a lot of asians. Asians are very heavily represented in the wealthy, well connected elite. Asians in American benefit greatly from establishment institutional access and insider networking.
     
    If you mean South Asians, then yes. East Asians are mostly upper middle class (doctors, dentists, and engineers and such) and are not highly represented among the real elites. But even the South Asians are only at the cusp of their future dominance as of today (we get a little taste in the form of the chiefs of IT companies) and they still pale in comparison to the Jewish dominance.

    Replies: @Alden

    The men of UNZ think that the upper upper wealthiest elite consists of Drs and dentists making 200K a year, engineers making 120K a year and anyone with a JD and a state bar card members of the elite.

    • Troll: Inverness
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alden

    Nowadays top 1% income is in the range of $600K but for wealthy states as high as $900K.

    OTOH, average household income in the US is $70k, so to someone making $70k a couple of doctors or engineers who have a household income of $300 or $400k are doing pretty well - maybe they are not top 1% but they are top 2% or 5%. If you are making $70k in total then it's hard to conceive of paying $60k/yr/kid for tuition at Horace Mann plus a mortgage on a $1 or 2M+ house or apt. plus superzip property taxes but a doctor couple might be able to swing it.

    While some of my kids' private school classmates' parents were super rich (others were felons - a good handful of them ended up in Federal prison for white collar crimes) a lot of them were professionals of the type that you describe. They could afford to do this but it's not pocket change to them, it's a significant expense in relation to their income. But for whatever reason (family tradition, keeping up with the Joneses, putting a high value on education), they choose to do it. OTOH, there are also folks who make just as much or even more who send their kids to the well regarded superzip public schools.

    Replies: @Alden

    , @Truth
    @Alden

    Aldey, you're generally right about the MOUz. However, I Think there are three words in connection with them you have to remember:

    "Even A Broken Clock..."

    https://worldstar.com/videos/wshh4La1wZL1rJ04yNGo/theyrsquore-about-to-argue-in-the-car-dudersquos-girlfriend-was-out-here-getting-too-friendly-and-this-is-how-it-played-out

    , @Twinkie
    @Alden


    Drs and dentists making 200K a year
     
    Those would be primary care physicians and dentists in poor practices. Specialists generally make more - much more if they own their own practices or are partners/shareholders (which is increasingly rare these days).

    engineers making 120K a year
     
    Again, depending on what kind of "engineers" they are. Do you know how much "engineers" at Amazon Web Services make? I can tell you it's not $120K a year.

    Nonetheless, the overall point is on. Real elites don't make 600K or even a million a year, let alone 200K. Real elites make orders of magnitude more than that.
  140. @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling

    A close friend of my father's (both passed away years ago) was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident. He passed away from cancer (not that it means much - cancer is the number one cause of death among East Asians, I think).

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    A close friend of my father’s … was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident.

    You sure that wasn’t from a steam, or electrocution etc. accident? There’s lots more that’s dangerous at power plants than what produces the raw heat. For a long time we pointed out there were no radioactivity deaths from civilian nuclear power production, but a couple of unfortunate men had died in a steam accident.

    Looking at Wikipedia’s list I see four electrocuted, it doesn’t include the two above, and at the same plant four died fourteen years later again to the same sort of accident. And a quarter century after the last of those, in 2013 “One worker was killed and two others injured when part of a generator fell as it was being moved at the Arkansas Nuclear One.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling

    He didn't work at a power station.

  141. @Jack D
    What's striking to me is that there are zero Harvard admits from Mann (and zero MITs). Back in the day, Harvard would have taken at least a few from Mann but now their Mann quota is zero.

    Replies: @Recently Based, @guest007, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    Conspicuous by their absence for grads of both schools are Amherst and Williams.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Brutusale

    Others pointed out that this list was apparently only of the top 20 college destinations so that Amherst and Williams could have taken 1 or 2 and not appeared on the list. Since they are both small schools you probably wouldn't expect them to take more than 1 or 2. They are likely destinations for Mann but the Stuyvesant kids don't usually have trust funds and can't afford to spend 4 years on a worthless liberal arts degree - they tend to go more for STEM majors that have a clear tract to a well paying job and not just a low paying gig at a non-profit where your parents are going to subsidize your rent.

  142. @Brutusale
    @Jack D

    Conspicuous by their absence for grads of both schools are Amherst and Williams.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Others pointed out that this list was apparently only of the top 20 college destinations so that Amherst and Williams could have taken 1 or 2 and not appeared on the list. Since they are both small schools you probably wouldn’t expect them to take more than 1 or 2. They are likely destinations for Mann but the Stuyvesant kids don’t usually have trust funds and can’t afford to spend 4 years on a worthless liberal arts degree – they tend to go more for STEM majors that have a clear tract to a well paying job and not just a low paying gig at a non-profit where your parents are going to subsidize your rent.

  143. @Somsel
    @That Would Be Telling

    As a nuclear engineer with decades of experience working with Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese nuclear programs, I can say they are not as good or or as tightly run as American program.

    They do details pretty well but the creators of nuclear power, Americans, still have the big picture.

    That's why the Asians bought American designs and why I get the Big Bucks for working with them.

    Replies: @Jack D

    My daughter, whose field is robotics, had some contact with the folks at Fukushima in the aftermath of the disaster. They were a bureaucratic ass covering nightmare to work with (and in the end her group ended up not working with them over petty nonsense – for example was their wifi router approved for use in Japan).

    Americans tend to be practical minded and willing to relax rules in a disaster. Saving lives is more important than following rules. The Asian mentality is seen in the recent fire in Xinjiang where people had to burn to death because covid lockdown rules were in effect. You couldn’t let the firefighters into the building or let the occupants out because this would violate the lockdown rules. Americans have no problem cutting thru such Gordian knots with the sword of common sense but Asians tend to get hung up and freeze into inaction when presented with such knots – no one wants to take the risk of breaking the rules and being made the scapegoat if it doesn’t work out.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    You talk a lot of crap by negatively describing so-called Asian mentality by cherry-picking.

    How about not so desirable American bureaucratic actions or inactions that created pretty bad disasters?
    According to Yale University law professor who wrote" Why Government Fails So Often: And How It Can Do Better", the American public views the U.S. federal government as a chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing, much less do it well.

    This poor view of the federal government is not surprising given its many high-profile failures. In recent years, scandals have erupted at the Department of Veteran's Affairs, Internal Revenue Service, Secret Service, and other agencies.
    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Federal auditors regularly uncover waste, fraud, and abuse in many departments, and federal projects often have large cost overruns.

    You should remember that there are both good and bad sides in every bureaucracy be it American or Asian.
    So my advice to you is just to remember the old saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Alden

    , @Alden
    @Jack D

    Have you heard what happens when a load of imported cars arrive in Japan? They aren’t just driven off the ship to a parking lot and then loaded onto car carrier trucks.

    The cars stay in the parking lot until every single one is thoroughly checked out by a Master Mechanic licensed certified diagnostic specialist. This can take a year or more. Only Then they can be delivered to the dealerships. And the ports take forever to allow them to leave the ship to the parking lot. Which means shipping companies are reluctant to carry cars to Japan. Don’t want to waste time in port.

    The birth control pill was cleared for use in 1960 by most countries in the world. Couldn’t be used in Japan for about 30 or more years. Because it wasn’t Japanese. There’s more medicines and all sorts of ordinary equipment that can’t be imported into Japan Because Japan is totally protectionist.

    Someday I’ll post the most egregious appalling Asian immigrant fraud I ever encountered.

  144. @Alden
    @Twinkie

    The men of UNZ think that the upper upper wealthiest elite consists of Drs and dentists making 200K a year, engineers making 120K a year and anyone with a JD and a state bar card members of the elite.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth, @Twinkie

    Nowadays top 1% income is in the range of $600K but for wealthy states as high as $900K.

    OTOH, average household income in the US is $70k, so to someone making $70k a couple of doctors or engineers who have a household income of $300 or $400k are doing pretty well – maybe they are not top 1% but they are top 2% or 5%. If you are making $70k in total then it’s hard to conceive of paying $60k/yr/kid for tuition at Horace Mann plus a mortgage on a $1 or 2M+ house or apt. plus superzip property taxes but a doctor couple might be able to swing it.

    While some of my kids’ private school classmates’ parents were super rich (others were felons – a good handful of them ended up in Federal prison for white collar crimes) a lot of them were professionals of the type that you describe. They could afford to do this but it’s not pocket change to them, it’s a significant expense in relation to their income. But for whatever reason (family tradition, keeping up with the Joneses, putting a high value on education), they choose to do it. OTOH, there are also folks who make just as much or even more who send their kids to the well regarded superzip public schools.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Jack D

    I know jack, I know all about it. As my family’s always been a private or religious school family. Our 4 kids and our 8 grandchildren private schools all the way. It’s just what we do. If you have to worry about cost don’t do it.

    We’re in the Bay Area. And the family company is electrical contracting. The company doesn’t do repairs and residential building. Big projects. We did the Salesforce Tower, Salesforce Park Which is not a park but a building with a roof garden and the Salesforce Center. Most of the electricians the company employs make around 200K a year. Not EEs. Not any specialists. Just IBEW electricians. Of course that involves hanging off the top towers of the Golden Gate Bridge in 70 mile an hour wind 45F. While doing complicated work.

    It really doesn’t matter what the average nationwide income is for whatever occupation. Or what Wikipedia claims. I just comment about what I know. I find it irritating that men of UNZ post something about Stanford charges 0 tuition if family income is under $150,000 when I know for a fact that Brandon’s grandparents paid tuition for Stanford. I went to a top 5 college but I don’t talk about it because it just isn’t done. And it was a long long time ago.

    All these yapping about the Ivies by men of UNZ who couldn’t list the 8 Ivy League colleges without asking Mr google.

    And most of all this ridiculous wanking about SAT scores when none of the Ivy League schools require SATs any more. Most schools don’t require them any more.

    As I’ve written before and will write again, it’s 2022, not 1962.

  145. @Alden
    @Twinkie

    The men of UNZ think that the upper upper wealthiest elite consists of Drs and dentists making 200K a year, engineers making 120K a year and anyone with a JD and a state bar card members of the elite.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth, @Twinkie

    Aldey, you’re generally right about the MOUz. However, I Think there are three words in connection with them you have to remember:

    “Even A Broken Clock…”

    https://worldstar.com/videos/wshh4La1wZL1rJ04yNGo/theyrsquore-about-to-argue-in-the-car-dudersquos-girlfriend-was-out-here-getting-too-friendly-and-this-is-how-it-played-out

  146. @Jack D
    @Somsel

    My daughter, whose field is robotics, had some contact with the folks at Fukushima in the aftermath of the disaster. They were a bureaucratic ass covering nightmare to work with (and in the end her group ended up not working with them over petty nonsense - for example was their wifi router approved for use in Japan).

    Americans tend to be practical minded and willing to relax rules in a disaster. Saving lives is more important than following rules. The Asian mentality is seen in the recent fire in Xinjiang where people had to burn to death because covid lockdown rules were in effect. You couldn't let the firefighters into the building or let the occupants out because this would violate the lockdown rules. Americans have no problem cutting thru such Gordian knots with the sword of common sense but Asians tend to get hung up and freeze into inaction when presented with such knots - no one wants to take the risk of breaking the rules and being made the scapegoat if it doesn't work out.

    Replies: @tamo, @Alden

    You talk a lot of crap by negatively describing so-called Asian mentality by cherry-picking.

    How about not so desirable American bureaucratic actions or inactions that created pretty bad disasters?
    According to Yale University law professor who wrote” Why Government Fails So Often: And How It Can Do Better”, the American public views the U.S. federal government as a chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing, much less do it well.

    This poor view of the federal government is not surprising given its many high-profile failures. In recent years, scandals have erupted at the Department of Veteran’s Affairs, Internal Revenue Service, Secret Service, and other agencies.
    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Federal auditors regularly uncover waste, fraud, and abuse in many departments, and federal projects often have large cost overruns.

    You should remember that there are both good and bad sides in every bureaucracy be it American or Asian.
    So my advice to you is just to remember the old saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo

    Touchy, aren't we?

    I think the difference is that Americans have a tradition of taking voluntary initiative, if necessary in spite of the government. Japanese children are taught that the stalk of rice that sticks its head up above the rest gets chopped off.

    Also that the bureaucratic mentality in Japan extends not only to government but also to private industry. The issues that my daughter's group was having were more with TEPCO (the private electric utility) than with the Japanese government. Of course, private corporations in America can also exhibit bureaucratic, ass covering behavior as well. A very large electric utility or corporation often behaves similarly whether it is government or shareholder owned. But again culture plays a role. Every culture has strengths and weaknesses and these tend to especially come out in times of stress.

    The Japanese model has its ups and downs. OTOH, they were able to take a medieval society and bring it into the modern era in a few short decades. OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries. On the third hand, after a rapid industrialization, they led themselves into military disaster, On the 4th had, they were able to come back from this and prosper. On the 5th hand, the model only worked so far and then they fell into stagnation. The same qualities that lead them to great success also lead them to great failure.

    I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different.

    Replies: @tamo, @Corvinus

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @tamo


    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?
     
    Beware of politically motivated propaganda. Notoriously corrupt and incompetent Louisiana state and New Orleans and some other local responses cost some number of lives, but the Feds did just fine in the early saving lives stage.

    That is. the military including the Coast Guard they got their helicopters etc. out of harms way, then went in after the storm passed. Reporters stationed a few blocks from the stadium ignored the regular thunder of Chinook heavy-lift and smaller helicopters depositing rescuees in favor of shifting blame and making shit up to attack W.

    Pretty sure I remember the Federal follow on, like what FEMA does per protocol starting three days after a disaster wasn't great, but that's another thing and fits your "chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing." For now though we're still generally First World when it comes immediate large or mass scale emergency responses.
    , @Alden
    @tamo

    The FEMA coverage was nothing but lie after lie after lie. Because America had a Republican President at the time. Had we a democrat president the lying media would have praised FEMA and the president to the heavens.

    For your information you ignorant moron FEMA is for clean up and rebuilding after the disaster. It’s not the local fire department or public safety department.

    FEMA is basically a federal government insurance agency to rebuild AFTER natural disasters. And bring in food, clean bottled water medical help beds trailers to live in mobile health clinics after the disaster. Not drive trucks of food and mobile medical clinics into a raging hurricane.

    Only ignorant morons such as you believe the lying media.

    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores. Next a foreigner repeating New York Times lies lies and more lies about federal response to hurricane Katrina.

    You posted your total ignorance without even knowing what FEMA does and how it responded to Katrina. FEMA did it’s job. It was only the black idiots one local city New Orleans , that completely failed.

    In the rest of Louisiana including towns right across the border from New Orleans, literally just a foot on the other side the local governments did their job.

    That hurricane covered about 2,000 miles from Florida to Texas east to west. The east to west distance across the USA is only about 3,000 miles.

    Only fools and morons believe the American media. Best way to discover the truth about anything is to read the New York Times Washington Post and the rest of the prestige media. Whatever the prestige media claims the opposite is true.

    Replies: @Truth, @tamo

  147. @Jack D
    @Bardon Kaldlan

    BTW, your racist shtick has been going on since the days of the original Peter Stuyvesant. When the 1st Jews landed in New Amsterdam (refugees from a Dutch colony in S. America that had recently been conquered by the Portuguese), Stuyvesant wrote to his bosses at the Dutch West India Company (New Amsterdam was a company town) asking to expel the "deceitful," "very repugnant," "hateful enemies and blasphemers of the name of Christ." (But being Dutch, he asked if he could do so "in a friendly way"- LOL).

    His bosses wrote back and told him, as much as they would like to do so, the Company had a number of important shareholders and directors who were Jewish who they could not piss off, so no can do, Pete - the Jews gotta stay.

    So far the modern day Jews of NY don't have the mojo to get Pete's name removed from everything but they are working on it::

    https://nypost.com/2017/08/24/jewish-activists-target-removal-of-peter-stuyvesant-monuments/

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldlan

    A stitch in time saves nine,they say.
    I sometimes wonder if the Euros had been more proactive about the rats they brought to the New World,maybe they could’ve stamped em out,before they took hold.
    But they didn’t care and look at NYC today,overrun .
    With rats,I mean.😉

  148. @Jack D
    @MagyarDiak

    White people admire "naturals" - you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing. Overpreparing, studying too much or trying too hard is seen as a negative - "nerdy". You are supposed to be "well rounded" so if you are spending too much time in cram school instead of playing sports (even though you have zero chance of being a professional athlete) that's bad.

    The Asian cultural view puts a big emphasis on preparation - everyone has the ability to do math or whatever, so if you aren't doing well it must be because you aren't trying hard enough and should do some more problem sets.

    Neither view is really ideal but it's hard to argue with the results that Asians are getting.

    Replies: @Alden, @TelfoedJohn

    White people admire “naturals” – you should (at least appear to) be effortless at whatever it is you are doing.

    This is the Western sprezzatura ideal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura

    The Eastern opposite can be seen in the offices of China, Korea, and Japan, where people will ostentatiously try to look busy by fast-walking to the photocopier, fidgeting with a spreadsheet, or working a bit later than everyone else.

    • Agree: Inverness
  149. @tamo
    @Jack D

    You talk a lot of crap by negatively describing so-called Asian mentality by cherry-picking.

    How about not so desirable American bureaucratic actions or inactions that created pretty bad disasters?
    According to Yale University law professor who wrote" Why Government Fails So Often: And How It Can Do Better", the American public views the U.S. federal government as a chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing, much less do it well.

    This poor view of the federal government is not surprising given its many high-profile failures. In recent years, scandals have erupted at the Department of Veteran's Affairs, Internal Revenue Service, Secret Service, and other agencies.
    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Federal auditors regularly uncover waste, fraud, and abuse in many departments, and federal projects often have large cost overruns.

    You should remember that there are both good and bad sides in every bureaucracy be it American or Asian.
    So my advice to you is just to remember the old saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Alden

    Touchy, aren’t we?

    I think the difference is that Americans have a tradition of taking voluntary initiative, if necessary in spite of the government. Japanese children are taught that the stalk of rice that sticks its head up above the rest gets chopped off.

    Also that the bureaucratic mentality in Japan extends not only to government but also to private industry. The issues that my daughter’s group was having were more with TEPCO (the private electric utility) than with the Japanese government. Of course, private corporations in America can also exhibit bureaucratic, ass covering behavior as well. A very large electric utility or corporation often behaves similarly whether it is government or shareholder owned. But again culture plays a role. Every culture has strengths and weaknesses and these tend to especially come out in times of stress.

    The Japanese model has its ups and downs. OTOH, they were able to take a medieval society and bring it into the modern era in a few short decades. OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries. On the third hand, after a rapid industrialization, they led themselves into military disaster, On the 4th had, they were able to come back from this and prosper. On the 5th hand, the model only worked so far and then they fell into stagnation. The same qualities that lead them to great success also lead them to great failure.

    I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different.

    • Agree: Recently Based
    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    You wasted a lot of words for nothing. All you had to was just saying your last paragraph "I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different".

    I have no problem with that.

    , @Corvinus
    @Jack D

    “OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries“

    Wait, I thought we should applaud them for being a homogenous culture, one that didn’t succumb to the Jewish multicultural death trap.

    Now you’re essentially saying it was foolish to have made the decision to remain isolated?

    Get your talking points straight from your Talmudic overlords next time.

  150. @Jack D
    @tamo

    Touchy, aren't we?

    I think the difference is that Americans have a tradition of taking voluntary initiative, if necessary in spite of the government. Japanese children are taught that the stalk of rice that sticks its head up above the rest gets chopped off.

    Also that the bureaucratic mentality in Japan extends not only to government but also to private industry. The issues that my daughter's group was having were more with TEPCO (the private electric utility) than with the Japanese government. Of course, private corporations in America can also exhibit bureaucratic, ass covering behavior as well. A very large electric utility or corporation often behaves similarly whether it is government or shareholder owned. But again culture plays a role. Every culture has strengths and weaknesses and these tend to especially come out in times of stress.

    The Japanese model has its ups and downs. OTOH, they were able to take a medieval society and bring it into the modern era in a few short decades. OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries. On the third hand, after a rapid industrialization, they led themselves into military disaster, On the 4th had, they were able to come back from this and prosper. On the 5th hand, the model only worked so far and then they fell into stagnation. The same qualities that lead them to great success also lead them to great failure.

    I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different.

    Replies: @tamo, @Corvinus

    You wasted a lot of words for nothing. All you had to was just saying your last paragraph “I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different”.

    I have no problem with that.

  151. @Twinkie
    @Bragadocious


    Stuyvesant grads don’t need to go to prestige schools. Their Stuyvesant diploma will always be the turbocharger on their resumes. Ever notice how Stuyvesant grads, like Harvard grads, always tell you where they went to school?
     
    I wish. In elite circles, a Stuy diploma simply means you grew up poorly. It means nothing. What you want is an Andover, Exeter, or St. Alban's diploma. And you don't have to put it in your resume, because you are already networked with elite alums and their world-ruling parents.

    Replies: @Alden

    Forget about it Twinkie. The men of UNZ have never heard of Deerfield Groton Milton Lawrenceville Choate Farmington St Paul’s or any of the top private high schools in the east coast or anywhere else. .

    • Troll: Inverness
  152. @Alden
    @Jack D

    Not one of the Ivy League schools requires SATs anymore. Suspended because of covid hoax allegedly. But extended through the fall 2024 class. Harvard extended till fall class of 2026.

    Replies: @Recently Based

    It’s required if you’re white or Asian and go to a private r good public school, if you want to have any chance of getting in without some massive hook.

    It’s only actually not required where they will not accept it from anyone (e.g., UC).

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Recently Based

    Read the websites of all the Ivy League colleges. Read about their SAT submission policies.

    Of course you have to know the names of all the Ivy League colleges to check out their websites. Can you write a list of the Ivy League colleges without asking google?

  153. @tamo
    @Jack D

    You talk a lot of crap by negatively describing so-called Asian mentality by cherry-picking.

    How about not so desirable American bureaucratic actions or inactions that created pretty bad disasters?
    According to Yale University law professor who wrote" Why Government Fails So Often: And How It Can Do Better", the American public views the U.S. federal government as a chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing, much less do it well.

    This poor view of the federal government is not surprising given its many high-profile failures. In recent years, scandals have erupted at the Department of Veteran's Affairs, Internal Revenue Service, Secret Service, and other agencies.
    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Federal auditors regularly uncover waste, fraud, and abuse in many departments, and federal projects often have large cost overruns.

    You should remember that there are both good and bad sides in every bureaucracy be it American or Asian.
    So my advice to you is just to remember the old saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Alden

    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Beware of politically motivated propaganda. Notoriously corrupt and incompetent Louisiana state and New Orleans and some other local responses cost some number of lives, but the Feds did just fine in the early saving lives stage.

    That is. the military including the Coast Guard they got their helicopters etc. out of harms way, then went in after the storm passed. Reporters stationed a few blocks from the stadium ignored the regular thunder of Chinook heavy-lift and smaller helicopters depositing rescuees in favor of shifting blame and making shit up to attack W.

    Pretty sure I remember the Federal follow on, like what FEMA does per protocol starting three days after a disaster wasn’t great, but that’s another thing and fits your “chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing.” For now though we’re still generally First World when it comes immediate large or mass scale emergency responses.

    • Thanks: Alden
  154. @Jack D
    @Alden

    Nowadays top 1% income is in the range of $600K but for wealthy states as high as $900K.

    OTOH, average household income in the US is $70k, so to someone making $70k a couple of doctors or engineers who have a household income of $300 or $400k are doing pretty well - maybe they are not top 1% but they are top 2% or 5%. If you are making $70k in total then it's hard to conceive of paying $60k/yr/kid for tuition at Horace Mann plus a mortgage on a $1 or 2M+ house or apt. plus superzip property taxes but a doctor couple might be able to swing it.

    While some of my kids' private school classmates' parents were super rich (others were felons - a good handful of them ended up in Federal prison for white collar crimes) a lot of them were professionals of the type that you describe. They could afford to do this but it's not pocket change to them, it's a significant expense in relation to their income. But for whatever reason (family tradition, keeping up with the Joneses, putting a high value on education), they choose to do it. OTOH, there are also folks who make just as much or even more who send their kids to the well regarded superzip public schools.

    Replies: @Alden

    I know jack, I know all about it. As my family’s always been a private or religious school family. Our 4 kids and our 8 grandchildren private schools all the way. It’s just what we do. If you have to worry about cost don’t do it.

    We’re in the Bay Area. And the family company is electrical contracting. The company doesn’t do repairs and residential building. Big projects. We did the Salesforce Tower, Salesforce Park Which is not a park but a building with a roof garden and the Salesforce Center. Most of the electricians the company employs make around 200K a year. Not EEs. Not any specialists. Just IBEW electricians. Of course that involves hanging off the top towers of the Golden Gate Bridge in 70 mile an hour wind 45F. While doing complicated work.

    It really doesn’t matter what the average nationwide income is for whatever occupation. Or what Wikipedia claims. I just comment about what I know. I find it irritating that men of UNZ post something about Stanford charges 0 tuition if family income is under $150,000 when I know for a fact that Brandon’s grandparents paid tuition for Stanford. I went to a top 5 college but I don’t talk about it because it just isn’t done. And it was a long long time ago.

    All these yapping about the Ivies by men of UNZ who couldn’t list the 8 Ivy League colleges without asking Mr google.

    And most of all this ridiculous wanking about SAT scores when none of the Ivy League schools require SATs any more. Most schools don’t require them any more.

    As I’ve written before and will write again, it’s 2022, not 1962.

  155. @tamo
    @Jack D

    You talk a lot of crap by negatively describing so-called Asian mentality by cherry-picking.

    How about not so desirable American bureaucratic actions or inactions that created pretty bad disasters?
    According to Yale University law professor who wrote" Why Government Fails So Often: And How It Can Do Better", the American public views the U.S. federal government as a chronically clumsy, ineffectual, bloated giant that cannot be counted upon to do the right thing, much less do it well.

    This poor view of the federal government is not surprising given its many high-profile failures. In recent years, scandals have erupted at the Department of Veteran's Affairs, Internal Revenue Service, Secret Service, and other agencies.
    How about the disastrous federal, state. local responses to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that cost many lives needlessly?

    Federal auditors regularly uncover waste, fraud, and abuse in many departments, and federal projects often have large cost overruns.

    You should remember that there are both good and bad sides in every bureaucracy be it American or Asian.
    So my advice to you is just to remember the old saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling, @Alden

    The FEMA coverage was nothing but lie after lie after lie. Because America had a Republican President at the time. Had we a democrat president the lying media would have praised FEMA and the president to the heavens.

    For your information you ignorant moron FEMA is for clean up and rebuilding after the disaster. It’s not the local fire department or public safety department.

    FEMA is basically a federal government insurance agency to rebuild AFTER natural disasters. And bring in food, clean bottled water medical help beds trailers to live in mobile health clinics after the disaster. Not drive trucks of food and mobile medical clinics into a raging hurricane.

    Only ignorant morons such as you believe the lying media.

    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores. Next a foreigner repeating New York Times lies lies and more lies about federal response to hurricane Katrina.

    You posted your total ignorance without even knowing what FEMA does and how it responded to Katrina. FEMA did it’s job. It was only the black idiots one local city New Orleans , that completely failed.

    In the rest of Louisiana including towns right across the border from New Orleans, literally just a foot on the other side the local governments did their job.

    That hurricane covered about 2,000 miles from Florida to Texas east to west. The east to west distance across the USA is only about 3,000 miles.

    Only fools and morons believe the American media. Best way to discover the truth about anything is to read the New York Times Washington Post and the rest of the prestige media. Whatever the prestige media claims the opposite is true.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Alden


    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores.
     
    So Aldey, what are you trying to imply?

    Replies: @Alden

    , @tamo
    @Alden

    You sound like a Trump and Faux News -worshipping moronic ape foaming at the mouth whom I try very hard to avoid in my everyday life. Go back to your cave, LOL !!!

    Replies: @Alden

  156. @Jack D
    @Somsel

    My daughter, whose field is robotics, had some contact with the folks at Fukushima in the aftermath of the disaster. They were a bureaucratic ass covering nightmare to work with (and in the end her group ended up not working with them over petty nonsense - for example was their wifi router approved for use in Japan).

    Americans tend to be practical minded and willing to relax rules in a disaster. Saving lives is more important than following rules. The Asian mentality is seen in the recent fire in Xinjiang where people had to burn to death because covid lockdown rules were in effect. You couldn't let the firefighters into the building or let the occupants out because this would violate the lockdown rules. Americans have no problem cutting thru such Gordian knots with the sword of common sense but Asians tend to get hung up and freeze into inaction when presented with such knots - no one wants to take the risk of breaking the rules and being made the scapegoat if it doesn't work out.

    Replies: @tamo, @Alden

    Have you heard what happens when a load of imported cars arrive in Japan? They aren’t just driven off the ship to a parking lot and then loaded onto car carrier trucks.

    The cars stay in the parking lot until every single one is thoroughly checked out by a Master Mechanic licensed certified diagnostic specialist. This can take a year or more. Only Then they can be delivered to the dealerships. And the ports take forever to allow them to leave the ship to the parking lot. Which means shipping companies are reluctant to carry cars to Japan. Don’t want to waste time in port.

    The birth control pill was cleared for use in 1960 by most countries in the world. Couldn’t be used in Japan for about 30 or more years. Because it wasn’t Japanese. There’s more medicines and all sorts of ordinary equipment that can’t be imported into Japan Because Japan is totally protectionist.

    Someday I’ll post the most egregious appalling Asian immigrant fraud I ever encountered.

  157. @Anon
    @Altai

    It seems to me that Altai is addressing the central dichotomy here: Asian vs. Jewish higher ed outcomes. Stuyvesant is full of exam-cramming Asians, although many students appear to be genuinely smart (42 going to MIT! 41 to Harvard! and that's only acceptances by the students, not total admissions by the schools). I've only known a small number of Horace Mann alumni, but they were all Jewish, so I'm naively assuming that the students there are probably as Jewish as Stuyvesant students are Asian. Critically, though, one thing that is probably irrelevant to this story is the preferences of white (i.e., "goyim"/gentile) students. To frame this as white preferences vs. Asian preferences really misses the point; Hayven Moynihan has at most a supporting role in this story.

    "The comparison is striking. Even among kids who uniformly score in the top 1-3% on national exams, wealthy families have established a unique means to convert merit into admissions success, therefore transmitting this particular type of cultural capital to their children."

    Beyond ignoring the ethnic story here, this guy also misstates the relative statuses of these students. When you're talking about going to Cambridge, MA for college, you might as well save your application fee if you only scored in the 97th percentile on the SAT. However, if you want to go to St. Louis, then WashU is right up your alley.

    The simplest story here (standard uncertainty caveats apply, of course) is
    Stuyvesant = lots of mildly-intelligent exam-crammers who go to NYC-area colleges, with a few truly intelligent students mixed in who go to big name schools, both groups being mostly Asian
    Horace Mann = kids who are about as smart as the Stuy exam-crammers, but who read real books instead of study guides, and whose family money and/or connections will often end up determining which fly-over school they'll go to (WashU, Indiana, and Northwestern are poster children for this) instead of SUNY Stony Brook

    Replies: @Altai, @Alden

    Harvard no longer requires SAT submission for the fall class of 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026.

    Harvard will reconsider SATs for the fall class of 2027.

    The rest of the Ivies aren’t accepting SATs either. Most colleges no longer require SATs. And right in the application there’s a statement that submitting or not submitting SATs will not affect acceptance.

    So why are you writing about the in process of becoming obsolete SATs?

  158. @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    From the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution, China was one of the most creative and inventive and richest countries in the world. According to a well-respected Sinologist, Robert Temple, more than half the basic inventions and discoveries that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came from China.

    China only fell behind Europe with the coming of the Industrial Revolution. The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it's status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.

    On the other hand, unlike creative and innovative China before the Industrial Revolution, Japan was a only copycat. Japan copied Chinese civilization wholeheartedly in premodern times. For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.

    Japanese culture like those of Korea and Vietnam, is an offshoot of Chinese civilization.

    Even though Japan learned some useful things from Portuguese and Dutch in premodern times. it was not until the 19th century that Japan started copying from Europeans and Americans in earnest.

    Although Japan made a lot of incremental technological innovations starting 1970s, Japan has been mostly a follower than a leader in it's history.

    By the way, my post 117 is directed at you.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Jack D

    I’m of Chinese background and simply don’t believe such cultural egotism. Much of what is supposedly “Chinese” actually isn’t. China is “People’s Republic of China” 中華人民共和国, an imported notion from Soviet Russia. 共和国 (kyōwakoku, republic) is a wasei-kangoJapanese-made Chinese word”, as well as 共産党 (kyōsantō, communist party).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango

    Temple and Needham focuses on Song (11-13 CE) which is fair in that it was ahead of Europe, it was a tolerant period with many brilliant thinkers, (Imperial China 900-1800 by F.W. Mote if you want a book rec) many Chinese and Japanese intellectuals idealize Song Dynasty. What you don’t know is that Song personifies a lot of Han Chinese fails:

    1. Effeminized men by shifting from a military-aristocratic elite to a scholar-bureaucratic elite.

    2. Launched aggressive war against Tangut Xia and got stomped.

    3. Allied with Jurchens to beat the Khitans, got stomped by Jurchens. Learns no lessons, allied with Mongols to beat Jurchens, got stomped again by Mongols.

    4. Was so corrupt that one of the Four Great Novels was about bros banding together to start rebellion set in the period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin

    If you know something about martial arts, Japan was never simply a copycat of China’s.

    As for Korea, you are Korean if I’m correct, I’m interested in your thoughts about this. Korean history seem to depict Qing Invasion of Joseon (1636-7) as an equal calamity as Toyotomi’s Invasion of Korea (1592-1598). The Joseon King was subjected to Three Kneels and Nine Kowtows to the Qing emperor. Joseon had to send “tribute girls” was kept in backwardness and poverty by the Qing.

    SK made a movie about this, The Fortress that highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society. A defector to the Qing told a senior yangban that because he was born as baekjeong he was never a Korean to begin with. I’m waiting for PRC to make an equally self-effacing movie about the Cultural Revolution.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Somsel
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Visit the Soju Museum in Andong for a fascinating diorama of two yangban sipping brandy-like soju.

    I brought home a bottle.

    Today, public school teachers are treated as cultural descendants of the yangban, including the high incomes.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    , @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society
     
    I once read an aphorism from Ireland, which might as well have come from pre-modern Korea as well: "The drink ruins a man - it makes him lose his head and shoot at his landlord and it makes him miss."

    Koreans have been the Irishmen of the Orient for a long time now. They may or may not resist foreign overlords, but, golly, they'll make sure their domestic rivals don't come to power and rule over them.

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea's celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin? When Toyotomi Hideyoshi launched the invasion of Korea, most Korean generals and admirals were either incompetent or cowardly. The King was both and fled for his life to the Chinese border and abandoned his subjects to their fate. Admiral Yi was the only one sober, competent, and courageous enough to fight the Japanese and beat them (repeatedly).

    And his reward for this loyalty and patriotism? He was stripped of his command through court intrigue and was imprisoned while his politically favored replacement promptly had almost the entire fleet (that Yi had carefully built up and preserved) destroyed by the Japanese. Yi was only freed, because the Korean court became desperate. He promptly resumed command and destroyed the Japanese fleet of over 300 ships with only 13 remaining vessels. And he died in a later battle while pursuing the defeated Japanese fleet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin#Reactions_by_Joseon_government

    Reactions by Joseon government

    Admiral Yi repeatedly defeated the Japanese invasion force in battle, while preserving the lives of his soldiers and respecting their families. Yi was supported by the people of Joseon not only for his victories, but his kindness and gratitude towards those affected by the hardships of war. They had great faith in Admiral Yi and he was regarded as more than just an admiral.[29]

    By contrast, King Seonjo accomplished nothing. The Joseon Dynasty's king had failed to defend the kingdom and his cowardly flight to Uiju left his reputation in ruins. The Joseon government was plagued by factionalism driven by jealousy; the ministers despised the successful and virtuous admiral, and manipulated King Seonjo to view Admiral Yi as a potential traitor. It is plausible to believe that King Seonjo and his court truly feared Admiral Yi's victories and reputation amongst the people as the foundations for a revolt[30] leading King Seonjo to have him arrested and tortured. Defended by his loyal friend, Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong, Admiral Yi was spared execution twice. The conspiracies worked against Admiral Yi from gaining the men, materiel, and operational freedom to decisively destroy the Japanese invasion force.

    It should also be noted that according to a recent Choson Ilbo article, historians have discovered written government records of the Joseon government's reaction to Admiral Yi's death. The records show that King Seonjo expressed a "blank expression", offering no signs of sadness or shock.[31] Nearly all awards to Admiral Yi and his deeds were awarded posthumously.[32]
     

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    , @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Frankly I don't give a damn about communism. There is nothing communistic about China except the name of the ruling party.

    But I give the CCP the credit for founding a strong nation after the century of national humiliation and getting hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty although they made such terrible mistakes as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

    Yes, I'm of Korean descent . I speak Korean and event though I don't speak Japanese, when I read a Japanese newspaper, I can roughly understand what they are talking about due to the written Chinese characters the Japanese newspaper uses. This is the a good example of how both Korea and Japan were greatly influenced by Chinese culture.

    What you said about the military incompetence of Song dynasty is true but it was also one of the golden ages in Chinese history. We Koreans learn about Chinese history at early age so you don't tell me anything I don't know.

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea. Yes, it was a very humiliating event for Korea but the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse. Korea felt the negative effects of the Japanese invasion for the next 200 years.

    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I'm one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Eagle Eye

  159. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    I'm of Chinese background and simply don't believe such cultural egotism. Much of what is supposedly "Chinese" actually isn't. China is "People's Republic of China" 中華人民共和国, an imported notion from Soviet Russia. 共和国 (kyōwakoku, republic) is a wasei-kango "Japanese-made Chinese word", as well as 共産党 (kyōsantō, communist party).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango

    Temple and Needham focuses on Song (11-13 CE) which is fair in that it was ahead of Europe, it was a tolerant period with many brilliant thinkers, (Imperial China 900-1800 by F.W. Mote if you want a book rec) many Chinese and Japanese intellectuals idealize Song Dynasty. What you don't know is that Song personifies a lot of Han Chinese fails:

    1. Effeminized men by shifting from a military-aristocratic elite to a scholar-bureaucratic elite.

    2. Launched aggressive war against Tangut Xia and got stomped.

    3. Allied with Jurchens to beat the Khitans, got stomped by Jurchens. Learns no lessons, allied with Mongols to beat Jurchens, got stomped again by Mongols.

    4. Was so corrupt that one of the Four Great Novels was about bros banding together to start rebellion set in the period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin

    If you know something about martial arts, Japan was never simply a copycat of China's.

    As for Korea, you are Korean if I'm correct, I'm interested in your thoughts about this. Korean history seem to depict Qing Invasion of Joseon (1636-7) as an equal calamity as Toyotomi's Invasion of Korea (1592-1598). The Joseon King was subjected to Three Kneels and Nine Kowtows to the Qing emperor. Joseon had to send "tribute girls" was kept in backwardness and poverty by the Qing.

    SK made a movie about this, The Fortress that highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society. A defector to the Qing told a senior yangban that because he was born as baekjeong he was never a Korean to begin with. I'm waiting for PRC to make an equally self-effacing movie about the Cultural Revolution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmkCKlzbhQ

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie, @tamo

    Visit the Soju Museum in Andong for a fascinating diorama of two yangban sipping brandy-like soju.

    I brought home a bottle.

    Today, public school teachers are treated as cultural descendants of the yangban, including the high incomes.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Somsel

    Yangbans were de facto hereditary, more like the older Chinese aristocracy.

    Later Chinese scholar-officialdom were open to all of society. Family clans that can afford cram schools get an edge, but not infrequently there's some bright youngster from a humble family gets top score on the exam. A enlightened system on paper but in reality can be something else.

    Soju goes great with budae-jjigae.

    Replies: @tamo, @Jack D

  160. @Alden
    @Twinkie

    The men of UNZ think that the upper upper wealthiest elite consists of Drs and dentists making 200K a year, engineers making 120K a year and anyone with a JD and a state bar card members of the elite.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth, @Twinkie

    Drs and dentists making 200K a year

    Those would be primary care physicians and dentists in poor practices. Specialists generally make more – much more if they own their own practices or are partners/shareholders (which is increasingly rare these days).

    engineers making 120K a year

    Again, depending on what kind of “engineers” they are. Do you know how much “engineers” at Amazon Web Services make? I can tell you it’s not $120K a year.

    Nonetheless, the overall point is on. Real elites don’t make 600K or even a million a year, let alone 200K. Real elites make orders of magnitude more than that.

  161. @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie


    A close friend of my father’s ... was the head of a nuclear facility in East Asia. Half of his body was burnt and disfigured in an accident.
     
    You sure that wasn't from a steam, or electrocution etc. accident? There's lots more that's dangerous at power plants than what produces the raw heat. For a long time we pointed out there were no radioactivity deaths from civilian nuclear power production, but a couple of unfortunate men had died in a steam accident.

    Looking at Wikipedia's list I see four electrocuted, it doesn't include the two above, and at the same plant four died fourteen years later again to the same sort of accident. And a quarter century after the last of those, in 2013 "One worker was killed and two others injured when part of a generator fell as it was being moved at the Arkansas Nuclear One."

    Replies: @Twinkie

    He didn’t work at a power station.

  162. @Alden
    @tamo

    The FEMA coverage was nothing but lie after lie after lie. Because America had a Republican President at the time. Had we a democrat president the lying media would have praised FEMA and the president to the heavens.

    For your information you ignorant moron FEMA is for clean up and rebuilding after the disaster. It’s not the local fire department or public safety department.

    FEMA is basically a federal government insurance agency to rebuild AFTER natural disasters. And bring in food, clean bottled water medical help beds trailers to live in mobile health clinics after the disaster. Not drive trucks of food and mobile medical clinics into a raging hurricane.

    Only ignorant morons such as you believe the lying media.

    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores. Next a foreigner repeating New York Times lies lies and more lies about federal response to hurricane Katrina.

    You posted your total ignorance without even knowing what FEMA does and how it responded to Katrina. FEMA did it’s job. It was only the black idiots one local city New Orleans , that completely failed.

    In the rest of Louisiana including towns right across the border from New Orleans, literally just a foot on the other side the local governments did their job.

    That hurricane covered about 2,000 miles from Florida to Texas east to west. The east to west distance across the USA is only about 3,000 miles.

    Only fools and morons believe the American media. Best way to discover the truth about anything is to read the New York Times Washington Post and the rest of the prestige media. Whatever the prestige media claims the opposite is true.

    Replies: @Truth, @tamo

    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores.

    So Aldey, what are you trying to imply?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Truth

    I’m not implying. I’ve written it many times. Colleges no longer require SAT submissions because the SATs are racist against dumb people.

    So why pretend it’s 1970?

  163. @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    I live in a different superzip and IIRC, something like 40% of the students attend non-public schools, even though the school system is one of the best in the state. In fact one of the reasons that the school system is so good is that they have fewer kids to educate and can spend more $ on each one.

    We split the difference and did public school thru grade 5 and private schools the rest of the way. My wife felt strongly about sending them to private school - she felt that the quality of the education was better and she was in a professional position to know. I would have been OK with public school. My kids I think are better writers than they would have been with a public school education. They made some good friends. They mostly liked their teachers, some of whom seemed to be really interesting people. They both got into top colleges. Would they have gotten into those same schools from public school? Maybe, maybe not. Their inheritances are going to be a little smaller but hey, it's only money. Money comes and goes but you only have one childhood. How much did I spend on tuition? It's like JP Morgan's yacht (it wouldn't have been enough for a yacht but it could have been a pretty damn nice boat, not that I like boats) - if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie, @Truth

    They both got into top colleges.

    Your kids are Jewish. Don’t think they won their spots fair and square.

    My older kids may go to $40K a year parochial high schools now (and it’s more for values, not “education”), but they grew up with the children of black and Hispanic enlisted in Hampton Roads and puddling in mud piles with poor kids in Appalachia. They know how to build a house from scratch, how to skin and eat snakes, and how to sleep without a sleeping bag on a mountaintop without freezing to death.

    It doesn’t matter whether your kids went to a public middle school or a private high school – they were reared in Main Line privilege.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    Your kids are Jewish. Don’t think they won their spots fair and square.
     
    The resentment just seethes from you. You don't know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don't know the truth.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it's noticeably lower than Harvard's. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% "international" (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    Replies: @Mark G., @Twinkie

  164. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    I'm of Chinese background and simply don't believe such cultural egotism. Much of what is supposedly "Chinese" actually isn't. China is "People's Republic of China" 中華人民共和国, an imported notion from Soviet Russia. 共和国 (kyōwakoku, republic) is a wasei-kango "Japanese-made Chinese word", as well as 共産党 (kyōsantō, communist party).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango

    Temple and Needham focuses on Song (11-13 CE) which is fair in that it was ahead of Europe, it was a tolerant period with many brilliant thinkers, (Imperial China 900-1800 by F.W. Mote if you want a book rec) many Chinese and Japanese intellectuals idealize Song Dynasty. What you don't know is that Song personifies a lot of Han Chinese fails:

    1. Effeminized men by shifting from a military-aristocratic elite to a scholar-bureaucratic elite.

    2. Launched aggressive war against Tangut Xia and got stomped.

    3. Allied with Jurchens to beat the Khitans, got stomped by Jurchens. Learns no lessons, allied with Mongols to beat Jurchens, got stomped again by Mongols.

    4. Was so corrupt that one of the Four Great Novels was about bros banding together to start rebellion set in the period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin

    If you know something about martial arts, Japan was never simply a copycat of China's.

    As for Korea, you are Korean if I'm correct, I'm interested in your thoughts about this. Korean history seem to depict Qing Invasion of Joseon (1636-7) as an equal calamity as Toyotomi's Invasion of Korea (1592-1598). The Joseon King was subjected to Three Kneels and Nine Kowtows to the Qing emperor. Joseon had to send "tribute girls" was kept in backwardness and poverty by the Qing.

    SK made a movie about this, The Fortress that highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society. A defector to the Qing told a senior yangban that because he was born as baekjeong he was never a Korean to begin with. I'm waiting for PRC to make an equally self-effacing movie about the Cultural Revolution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmkCKlzbhQ

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie, @tamo

    highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society

    I once read an aphorism from Ireland, which might as well have come from pre-modern Korea as well: “The drink ruins a man – it makes him lose his head and shoot at his landlord and it makes him miss.”

    Koreans have been the Irishmen of the Orient for a long time now. They may or may not resist foreign overlords, but, golly, they’ll make sure their domestic rivals don’t come to power and rule over them.

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea’s celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin? When Toyotomi Hideyoshi launched the invasion of Korea, most Korean generals and admirals were either incompetent or cowardly. The King was both and fled for his life to the Chinese border and abandoned his subjects to their fate. Admiral Yi was the only one sober, competent, and courageous enough to fight the Japanese and beat them (repeatedly).

    And his reward for this loyalty and patriotism? He was stripped of his command through court intrigue and was imprisoned while his politically favored replacement promptly had almost the entire fleet (that Yi had carefully built up and preserved) destroyed by the Japanese. Yi was only freed, because the Korean court became desperate. He promptly resumed command and destroyed the Japanese fleet of over 300 ships with only 13 remaining vessels. And he died in a later battle while pursuing the defeated Japanese fleet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin#Reactions_by_Joseon_government

    Reactions by Joseon government

    Admiral Yi repeatedly defeated the Japanese invasion force in battle, while preserving the lives of his soldiers and respecting their families. Yi was supported by the people of Joseon not only for his victories, but his kindness and gratitude towards those affected by the hardships of war. They had great faith in Admiral Yi and he was regarded as more than just an admiral.[29]

    By contrast, King Seonjo accomplished nothing. The Joseon Dynasty’s king had failed to defend the kingdom and his cowardly flight to Uiju left his reputation in ruins. The Joseon government was plagued by factionalism driven by jealousy; the ministers despised the successful and virtuous admiral, and manipulated King Seonjo to view Admiral Yi as a potential traitor. It is plausible to believe that King Seonjo and his court truly feared Admiral Yi’s victories and reputation amongst the people as the foundations for a revolt[30] leading King Seonjo to have him arrested and tortured. Defended by his loyal friend, Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong, Admiral Yi was spared execution twice. The conspiracies worked against Admiral Yi from gaining the men, materiel, and operational freedom to decisively destroy the Japanese invasion force.

    It should also be noted that according to a recent Choson Ilbo article, historians have discovered written government records of the Joseon government’s reaction to Admiral Yi’s death. The records show that King Seonjo expressed a “blank expression”, offering no signs of sadness or shock.[31] Nearly all awards to Admiral Yi and his deeds were awarded posthumously.[32]

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea’s celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin?

    He's well-known in PRC. There was a hugely popular vernacular history of Ming that covered him at length. Also about the ethnic Korean Li Rusong clan of Ming army.

    Patriotic heroes backstabbed was feature not a bug in Han Chinese dynasties, Song and Ming: Yu Qian, Yuan Chonghuan, Yue Fei, Qi Jiguang, Yang Family Generals, many cases.

    This continued with CCP who had backstabbed KMT in many ways in the war with Japan.

    Under Yuan and Qing this actually didn't so much occur because the Mongol Manchu warrior elites sat on top and rewarded Han Chinese who'd perform militarily.

    In commie Russia and I think Eastern Roman Empire there were a lot instances.

    There's not a history of this in Japan, who had not copy from China the practice of scholar-official bureaucracy subordinating the military. The samurais have had their share of civil wars but at end of day there are two Chinas and two Koreas, but not two Japans.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  165. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    I'm of Chinese background and simply don't believe such cultural egotism. Much of what is supposedly "Chinese" actually isn't. China is "People's Republic of China" 中華人民共和国, an imported notion from Soviet Russia. 共和国 (kyōwakoku, republic) is a wasei-kango "Japanese-made Chinese word", as well as 共産党 (kyōsantō, communist party).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango

    Temple and Needham focuses on Song (11-13 CE) which is fair in that it was ahead of Europe, it was a tolerant period with many brilliant thinkers, (Imperial China 900-1800 by F.W. Mote if you want a book rec) many Chinese and Japanese intellectuals idealize Song Dynasty. What you don't know is that Song personifies a lot of Han Chinese fails:

    1. Effeminized men by shifting from a military-aristocratic elite to a scholar-bureaucratic elite.

    2. Launched aggressive war against Tangut Xia and got stomped.

    3. Allied with Jurchens to beat the Khitans, got stomped by Jurchens. Learns no lessons, allied with Mongols to beat Jurchens, got stomped again by Mongols.

    4. Was so corrupt that one of the Four Great Novels was about bros banding together to start rebellion set in the period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin

    If you know something about martial arts, Japan was never simply a copycat of China's.

    As for Korea, you are Korean if I'm correct, I'm interested in your thoughts about this. Korean history seem to depict Qing Invasion of Joseon (1636-7) as an equal calamity as Toyotomi's Invasion of Korea (1592-1598). The Joseon King was subjected to Three Kneels and Nine Kowtows to the Qing emperor. Joseon had to send "tribute girls" was kept in backwardness and poverty by the Qing.

    SK made a movie about this, The Fortress that highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society. A defector to the Qing told a senior yangban that because he was born as baekjeong he was never a Korean to begin with. I'm waiting for PRC to make an equally self-effacing movie about the Cultural Revolution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmkCKlzbhQ

    Replies: @Somsel, @Twinkie, @tamo

    Frankly I don’t give a damn about communism. There is nothing communistic about China except the name of the ruling party.

    But I give the CCP the credit for founding a strong nation after the century of national humiliation and getting hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty although they made such terrible mistakes as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

    Yes, I’m of Korean descent . I speak Korean and event though I don’t speak Japanese, when I read a Japanese newspaper, I can roughly understand what they are talking about due to the written Chinese characters the Japanese newspaper uses. This is the a good example of how both Korea and Japan were greatly influenced by Chinese culture.

    What you said about the military incompetence of Song dynasty is true but it was also one of the golden ages in Chinese history. We Koreans learn about Chinese history at early age so you don’t tell me anything I don’t know.

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea. Yes, it was a very humiliating event for Korea but the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse. Korea felt the negative effects of the Japanese invasion for the next 200 years.

    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I’m one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    Communism was the trojan horse of Russian imperialism-- easily more rapacious than the Western version, that Japan was reacting to.

    In light of recent Russian aggression and CCP hard-handed policy, many Chinese are beginning to be receptive to the Japanese perspective. And as you wrote, South Korean are grateful to not have lived under it.


    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

     

    In the hugely popular book I mentioned above, the loyalty that Joseon demonstrated to Ming is deeply appreciated.

    But PRC inherits Qing not Ming borders, so these days there's some cynicism about Joseon's motivations. In addition the Qing invasion is not at all mentioned in most Chinese history books.


    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I’m one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

     

    Thanks. More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.

    The Russians brusquely refusing Itō Hirobumi's proposal of Man-Kan kōkan ron 満韓交換論 "the exchange of Manchuria to Russia for recognition of Korea as a protectorate of Japan" was what led to the Russo-Japanese War. The attitude was "what's ours is ours, what yours is also ours."

    But many Chinese take a placating attitude towards historical Russian aggression, so this is rarely mentioned.

    You can see I'm trying to give pointed critique on the PRC, not repudiate it in general.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @tamo

    , @Eagle Eye
    @tamo


    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

     

    The correct spelling of the transliterated term is Byeong Ja Ho Lan. Byeong Ja is a cyclical year number corresponding to 1636. The Chinese term Ho Lan is archaic and thus hard to understand for regular Koreans, just as a term like "seisin" would not be understood by non-specialist English readers.

    The Korean Wikipedia entry for the event 병자호란takes care to give the Chinese characters for the term: 丙子胡亂. Ho Lan 胡亂 literally means "barbarian uprising."


    ... the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse.
     
    The term 壬辰倭亂 is equivalent to Byeong Ja Ho Lan 丙子胡亂. Im Jin 壬辰 again is the cyclical year date, and 倭亂 Wae Lan means "uprising by Japanese barbarians." The invasion may have had a larger impact on Korea, but the terms used in Korean historiography (written in classical Chinese, roughly equivalent to Latin in Europe) are not significantly different.

    Replies: @tamo

  166. @Alden
    @tamo

    The FEMA coverage was nothing but lie after lie after lie. Because America had a Republican President at the time. Had we a democrat president the lying media would have praised FEMA and the president to the heavens.

    For your information you ignorant moron FEMA is for clean up and rebuilding after the disaster. It’s not the local fire department or public safety department.

    FEMA is basically a federal government insurance agency to rebuild AFTER natural disasters. And bring in food, clean bottled water medical help beds trailers to live in mobile health clinics after the disaster. Not drive trucks of food and mobile medical clinics into a raging hurricane.

    Only ignorant morons such as you believe the lying media.

    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores. Next a foreigner repeating New York Times lies lies and more lies about federal response to hurricane Katrina.

    You posted your total ignorance without even knowing what FEMA does and how it responded to Katrina. FEMA did it’s job. It was only the black idiots one local city New Orleans , that completely failed.

    In the rest of Louisiana including towns right across the border from New Orleans, literally just a foot on the other side the local governments did their job.

    That hurricane covered about 2,000 miles from Florida to Texas east to west. The east to west distance across the USA is only about 3,000 miles.

    Only fools and morons believe the American media. Best way to discover the truth about anything is to read the New York Times Washington Post and the rest of the prestige media. Whatever the prestige media claims the opposite is true.

    Replies: @Truth, @tamo

    You sound like a Trump and Faux News -worshipping moronic ape foaming at the mouth whom I try very hard to avoid in my everyday life. Go back to your cave, LOL !!!

    • Replies: @Alden
    @tamo

    Hurricane Katrina happened years before Trump ran for president. I never watch Fox or any TV news programs.

    Your comments about Hurricane Katrina were just clip and paste from the New York Times CNN and the rest of the liberal lying media.

    You blathered on about FEMA when you don’t even know what the agency’s responsibilities and functions are. And when FEMA operations begin after not during a disaster. Your comment about FEMA was gross ignorance.

    Your comment about FEMA was totally ignorant. Just a copy and paste from the lying liberal media.

    Replies: @tamo

  167. @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    They both got into top colleges.
     
    Your kids are Jewish. Don't think they won their spots fair and square.

    My older kids may go to $40K a year parochial high schools now (and it's more for values, not "education"), but they grew up with the children of black and Hispanic enlisted in Hampton Roads and puddling in mud piles with poor kids in Appalachia. They know how to build a house from scratch, how to skin and eat snakes, and how to sleep without a sleeping bag on a mountaintop without freezing to death.

    It doesn't matter whether your kids went to a public middle school or a private high school - they were reared in Main Line privilege.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Your kids are Jewish. Don’t think they won their spots fair and square.

    The resentment just seethes from you. You don’t know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don’t know the truth.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
    @Jack D


    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.
     
    Minorites arguing with each other over who gets the most affirmative action is going to be a problem for the party of minorities, the Democrats, in the future. Affirmative action just leads to inter-ethnic and inter-racial hostility. It's better if we just do away with it. Both Asians and Jewish people are highly intelligent and don't have to worry about getting into college if it's gone. They should be focusing their energies on ending affirmative action instead of arguing with each other about who gets the most.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    The resentment just seethes from you.
     
    Yeah, I detest injustice and unfairness. I also loathe people punching down all the while pretending to punch up.

    You don’t know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don’t know the truth.
     
    Everyone knows the Ivies and other top universities scrape the bottom of the barrel with Jews while downgrading flyover state gentile whites and Asians these days. As with blacks, the onus is on Jews to demonstrate that they got in via merit. Nothing you mentioned about your daughter here leads me to think she is different.

    And learn to read the room.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s.
     
    Oh, how grateful we should all be that it’s less evil.

    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.
     
    I can tell you work with words and not numbers. Do you want to adjust that for SAT scores and see who’s getting a thumb on the scale there? Of course, hell will freeze over before Jews allow their SAT scores to be revealed publicly. People would explode in rage. My first year roommate in college was a Jew. His SAT score was something like 1240. He was a moron compared to most Asians and flyover gentile whites at that Ivy. Didn’t stop him from whining about anti-Semitism incessantly like you.

    At some point, you run into that so many times, you get mugged by reality, even as a previously philo-Semitic person. But keep running that “fellow whites” shtick.

    By the way, remember when you tried to argue that blacks were more sacred than Jews a while back? Meet Ye and Kyrie Irving. Your people are slipping - shouldn’t let something like this through:

    https://youtu.be/_m-gO0HSCYk

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling

  168. @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    I live in a different superzip and IIRC, something like 40% of the students attend non-public schools, even though the school system is one of the best in the state. In fact one of the reasons that the school system is so good is that they have fewer kids to educate and can spend more $ on each one.

    We split the difference and did public school thru grade 5 and private schools the rest of the way. My wife felt strongly about sending them to private school - she felt that the quality of the education was better and she was in a professional position to know. I would have been OK with public school. My kids I think are better writers than they would have been with a public school education. They made some good friends. They mostly liked their teachers, some of whom seemed to be really interesting people. They both got into top colleges. Would they have gotten into those same schools from public school? Maybe, maybe not. Their inheritances are going to be a little smaller but hey, it's only money. Money comes and goes but you only have one childhood. How much did I spend on tuition? It's like JP Morgan's yacht (it wouldn't have been enough for a yacht but it could have been a pretty damn nice boat, not that I like boats) - if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie, @Truth

    they grew up with the children of black and Hispanic enlisted in Hampton Roads and puddling in mud piles with poor kids in Appalachia. They know how to build a house from scratch, how to skin and eat snakes, and how to sleep without a sleeping bag on a mountaintop without freezing to death.

    It doesn’t matter whether your kids went to a public middle school or a private high school – they were reared in Main Line privilege

    Damn, Jack, Twinx just Minority-Trumped you. I’m surprised he didn’t go into you father Maury the Podiatrist, and how he walked 15 miles to school through rice patties in Ok-Po as a kid… Uphill both ways.

    I thought the Khazars and Slants was a natural match?

    He went straight Bebe Moore Campbell on this post…

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205368.Your_Blues_Ain_t_Like_Mine

    • LOL: Jack D, tamo
  169. @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    From the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution, China was one of the most creative and inventive and richest countries in the world. According to a well-respected Sinologist, Robert Temple, more than half the basic inventions and discoveries that laid foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came from China.

    China only fell behind Europe with the coming of the Industrial Revolution. The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it's status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.

    On the other hand, unlike creative and innovative China before the Industrial Revolution, Japan was a only copycat. Japan copied Chinese civilization wholeheartedly in premodern times. For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.

    Japanese culture like those of Korea and Vietnam, is an offshoot of Chinese civilization.

    Even though Japan learned some useful things from Portuguese and Dutch in premodern times. it was not until the 19th century that Japan started copying from Europeans and Americans in earnest.

    Although Japan made a lot of incremental technological innovations starting 1970s, Japan has been mostly a follower than a leader in it's history.

    By the way, my post 117 is directed at you.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Jack D

    For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.

    Incomplete doesn’t express it strongly enough as about 70% of Japanese is written in Chinese characters. OTOH, 100% of English is written using Roman characters. This doesn’t mean that English civilization is inferior to the Roman.

    Japan and China occupy a position not unlike the UK and the Roman Empire (except that England was an actual colony of Rome and not just a tribute state like Japan). But Japan broke its tribute status in 1549 and since then has existed as a completely independent country. During that period, and especially after the opening to the West in the mid 19th century, Japan experienced rapid growth and industrialization while China was (and in some ways still is) pretty much a mess. Japan, almost uniquely among Asian countries, was able to thread the needle and become both fully Westernized and modernized and yet still traditional and Japanese.

    Saying that China was a great country before the Industrial Revolution is not saying much. You can’t live in the past, especially if that past was hundreds of years ago.

    The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.

    Chinese “superpower” status is being achieved by authoritarian means. Authoritarian “superpowers” (the USSR, Nazi Germany, etc.) tend to be brittle – they are like cast iron – superficially they appear to be strong but they can shatter like glass. The current regime of China may or may not make it to 2050. It may or may not make it to next week.

    Japan OTOH is a stable democracy. It no longer has superpower pretensions but most Japanese live a happy life, economically prosperous and free from government repression.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    You don't tell me anything I don't know about Japan. I happen to be ethnic Korean. We Koreans have to know something about China and Japan.

    All the Western countries massed their wealth lomg before they became FULLY democratic. All these wealthy Western countries gave voting rights ONLY to WHITE PRIVILEGED MALES at FIRST
    Even in America, not all the adult females couldn't vote even though the female suffrage act was ratified in 1920
    In a lot of European countries. women were NOT allowed to vote until the mid to late 20th century (France in 1944, Switzerland for federal election only in 1971)
    Do you remember that rich "democratic" America had the legal. segregation against blacks in the South until 1964?

    Authoritarian China's economy in 1980 was about 10% that of the America and now the Chinese economy is about 75% of American economy in nominal terms. but in PPP terms, Chinese economy is bigger than American economy.

    A better comparison can be made comparing China with India. In 1980 the economic sizes of both countries were about the same. But now, authoritarian China's economy is 5 times bigger than "democratic" Indian economy.

    Just look at American and European economies. They have been growing at extremely low levels. Democratic Japan is even worse. That country's economy has hardly grown in the past 20 years.

    The economic and moral declines in America and European countries are really pitiful.

    If America wants to beat authoritarian China, America must become like China.
    America must stop illegal migration, LGBTQ, BLM. Affirmative Action etc.

    America can not do this kinds of urgent things with it's dysfunctional so-called liberal democratic political system.

    What America needs is a strong right-wing authoritarian political system like China, Otherwise say goodbye to good old U,S.A.

    Replies: @Jack D

  170. @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    Your kids are Jewish. Don’t think they won their spots fair and square.
     
    The resentment just seethes from you. You don't know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don't know the truth.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it's noticeably lower than Harvard's. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% "international" (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    Replies: @Mark G., @Twinkie

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    Minorites arguing with each other over who gets the most affirmative action is going to be a problem for the party of minorities, the Democrats, in the future. Affirmative action just leads to inter-ethnic and inter-racial hostility. It’s better if we just do away with it. Both Asians and Jewish people are highly intelligent and don’t have to worry about getting into college if it’s gone. They should be focusing their energies on ending affirmative action instead of arguing with each other about who gets the most.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Mark G.

    I used to believe in meritocratic admissions, mainly because of the anti-Semitic roots of our modern "holistic" admission system which was expressly invented in order to reduce Jewish enrollment at Harvard under their previous "admission by test" system. Also because I think otherwise, someone like me, a chicken farmer's son from a rural HS, would not have received due consideration from Ivy admissions officers in the absence of my SAT score.

    BUT, as I said in my other post, I think that the fact that the SAT has been dumbed down ("recentered") from my day, combined with the fact that Asians have "cracked" it, has made the SAT increasingly meaningly as a means of meritocratic measurement (and universities are beginning to recognize this, though perhaps for the wrong reasons - their idea of merit could be measured with a skin tone meter rather than an intellectual test). The S. Ct. is, I'm pretty sure, going to chuck AA anyway in its next decision.

    OTOH, if you put racial considerations aside (as they are going to have to do, at least expressly - it will still be done in a wink, wink fashion) and put the SAT aside (and grades are increasingly meaningless too) then what is left? Harvard's "personality score" was meaningless. Putting aside the stereotype of Asians as humorless grinds, the Asians that I know have just as much "personality" as anyone else and being hard working used to be considered a virtue, not a fault.

    My proposal (and AFAIK it's not even on the table) is to extend the SAT further (like the amps that go up to 11) so that at a place like MIT it would again be capable of separating the men from the boys. This would have to be done in such a way (if that is possible) that wasn't subject to Asian "gaming".

    Replies: @Twinkie

  171. @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    Your kids are Jewish. Don’t think they won their spots fair and square.
     
    The resentment just seethes from you. You don't know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don't know the truth.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it's noticeably lower than Harvard's. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% "international" (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    Replies: @Mark G., @Twinkie

    The resentment just seethes from you.

    Yeah, I detest injustice and unfairness. I also loathe people punching down all the while pretending to punch up.

    You don’t know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don’t know the truth.

    Everyone knows the Ivies and other top universities scrape the bottom of the barrel with Jews while downgrading flyover state gentile whites and Asians these days. As with blacks, the onus is on Jews to demonstrate that they got in via merit. Nothing you mentioned about your daughter here leads me to think she is different.

    And learn to read the room.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s.

    Oh, how grateful we should all be that it’s less evil.

    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.

    I can tell you work with words and not numbers. Do you want to adjust that for SAT scores and see who’s getting a thumb on the scale there? Of course, hell will freeze over before Jews allow their SAT scores to be revealed publicly. People would explode in rage. My first year roommate in college was a Jew. His SAT score was something like 1240. He was a moron compared to most Asians and flyover gentile whites at that Ivy. Didn’t stop him from whining about anti-Semitism incessantly like you.

    At some point, you run into that so many times, you get mugged by reality, even as a previously philo-Semitic person. But keep running that “fellow whites” shtick.

    By the way, remember when you tried to argue that blacks were more sacred than Jews a while back? Meet Ye and Kyrie Irving. Your people are slipping – shouldn’t let something like this through:

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    bottom of the barrel ... Jews
     
    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything. I would put their SAT scores up against any Asians and they didn't spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward. BTW, I would love to hear your Jewish roommate's opinion of you. I think we are only getting one side of the story.

    For better or for worse, we have a "holistic" admissions system so that SAT scores are not the only measure. As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.

    It's pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian. It's similar to the Amazon feedback system which has been so gamed by Asian vendors that it's largely worthless - there are now websites that rate the reliability of Amazon product reviews based on certain flags of Asian review manipulation. So those AZXKDTLV brand headphones that come up first may not really be worthy of 5 stars. This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything - the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.

    This must be frustrating to Asians - here they have spent years going to cram school and doing other stuff (not excluding cheating in some cases) to game the SAT system and just when they have perfected it, no one wants to accept it as currency. It's similar to the North Korean "supernotes" - N. Korea spent huge effort making absolutely perfect counterfeit $100 bills (one of the ways you can detect them is that the printing quality is BETTER than on real US money) and now paper cash is increasingly obsolete.

    Blacks ARE more sacred - they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public ("Daddy, why is that lady so fat?"), who are given 2nd and 3rd chances ("Sorry ma'am, he's only 4 years old - you know how kids are.") If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie

    The Troll Jack D:


    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white....
     
    Old data, which we can check thanks to our host. "Whites" haven't been "37%" since 2014 and that's rounding up from 36.5%.

    Per numbers from MIT Hillel and undergraduate enrollment Jews are ~5% of these "whites." If we assume the remaining whites are split ~50/50 male/female like the total student body (currently 52/48 with males going down) approximately 10% or 110 students in each class are white males.

    One of my best friends is a retired career administrator at MIT. Doesn't talk about it at all anymore, and I suspect a big part of the reason is that the vast majority of the student they served would have no chance whatsoever to be students today. I certainly wouldn't have gotten in, especially with all the Red state flyover country boxes I check.

    Probably; I did check the orthogonal box twice of showing I could do projects, and in two domains, biology and software engineering and documentation of both. Being able to do projects has strong predictive power for success at MIT. But two years in JROTC, which taught me a lot of useful things including how to teach?

    Nah, I don't think so per our meta-host's citation of No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life which I drilled down to the page and read in full. That's from his invaluable "The Myth of American Meritocracy" which I gather this troll is trying to gaslight us on.

    That word as you may have heard is amazingly Merriam-Webster's Word of the Year, and it stings, in confirming that MW decision I came across an unironic Gizmodo article meta-gaslighting us with "Gaslight' Is Merriam-Webster's Word of the Year for No Good Reason."

    Replies: @Jack D

  172. @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    The resentment just seethes from you.
     
    Yeah, I detest injustice and unfairness. I also loathe people punching down all the while pretending to punch up.

    You don’t know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don’t know the truth.
     
    Everyone knows the Ivies and other top universities scrape the bottom of the barrel with Jews while downgrading flyover state gentile whites and Asians these days. As with blacks, the onus is on Jews to demonstrate that they got in via merit. Nothing you mentioned about your daughter here leads me to think she is different.

    And learn to read the room.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s.
     
    Oh, how grateful we should all be that it’s less evil.

    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.
     
    I can tell you work with words and not numbers. Do you want to adjust that for SAT scores and see who’s getting a thumb on the scale there? Of course, hell will freeze over before Jews allow their SAT scores to be revealed publicly. People would explode in rage. My first year roommate in college was a Jew. His SAT score was something like 1240. He was a moron compared to most Asians and flyover gentile whites at that Ivy. Didn’t stop him from whining about anti-Semitism incessantly like you.

    At some point, you run into that so many times, you get mugged by reality, even as a previously philo-Semitic person. But keep running that “fellow whites” shtick.

    By the way, remember when you tried to argue that blacks were more sacred than Jews a while back? Meet Ye and Kyrie Irving. Your people are slipping - shouldn’t let something like this through:

    https://youtu.be/_m-gO0HSCYk

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling

    bottom of the barrel … Jews

    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything. I would put their SAT scores up against any Asians and they didn’t spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward. BTW, I would love to hear your Jewish roommate’s opinion of you. I think we are only getting one side of the story.

    For better or for worse, we have a “holistic” admissions system so that SAT scores are not the only measure. As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.

    It’s pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian. It’s similar to the Amazon feedback system which has been so gamed by Asian vendors that it’s largely worthless – there are now websites that rate the reliability of Amazon product reviews based on certain flags of Asian review manipulation. So those AZXKDTLV brand headphones that come up first may not really be worthy of 5 stars. This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything – the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.

    This must be frustrating to Asians – here they have spent years going to cram school and doing other stuff (not excluding cheating in some cases) to game the SAT system and just when they have perfected it, no one wants to accept it as currency. It’s similar to the North Korean “supernotes” – N. Korea spent huge effort making absolutely perfect counterfeit $100 bills (one of the ways you can detect them is that the printing quality is BETTER than on real US money) and now paper cash is increasingly obsolete.

    Blacks ARE more sacred – they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public (“Daddy, why is that lady so fat?”), who are given 2nd and 3rd chances (“Sorry ma’am, he’s only 4 years old – you know how kids are.”) If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Jack D

    Jackie, did you feel/hear that loud "thump?" do you see that stream of crimson dripping onto your shoes?

    I think Twinkie took that olive branch you extended and mollywhopped you on the side of the head with it!


    If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.
     
    Well Old Sport, let's be perfectly honest; If Irving was white, he probably would have been playing in the Serbian league before he said it.
    , @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything.
     
    Sure, they are stars, just like the black and Hispanic kids who are admitted via the "holistic" admissions.

    any Asians and they didn’t spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward.
     
    Question: who was Stanley Kaplan? Let me jog your memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Kaplan

    As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.
     
    No, you innumerate self-serving propagandist, the new SAT, made easier, compresses the right tail of the scores. The net result is that it reduces the gap between the truly high scores and the next tier. That's why there are far more perfect scores now than in the 1980's. This tends to reduce the gap between Asians and others. The fact that Asians are outperforming others even more, I suspect, has to do with the greatly increased selectivity of Asian immigration - largely Indian/South Asian - in the main.

    It’s pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges
     
    That's just a convenient cope.

    so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian.
     
    More "fellow whites," bullshit. I posted this information before - someone reworked the numbers and modeled the student body if the admissions criteria at elite schools became meritocratic. The result was, yes, Asian numbers go up (to about 30-40% - I don't remember the exact figure), but this was at the expense of black and Hispanics who collapse to under 5% together. The white fraction would stay roughly the same (about 45-50% I think), but what kind of whites would get in would change. You can guess who-whom in reverse.

    This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything – the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.
     
    My, the Chutzpah. You belong to an ethnic group that is highly overrepresented in fraud and financial manipulation. Setting aside my own particular ethnic group, East Asians in general are underrepresented in such (white collar) crimes. It isn't the Asians who made the economy of this country predatory and rent-seeking and its culture coarse and degenerate via dominance of the media and what one Jewish writer self-congratulatorily called "verbal brio." But, fear not, the "Asians" that your co-ethnics favor and have flooded this country of late - South Asians - share this gift of the "verbal brio" (unsurprisingly while the capital of global financial crimes is Tel Aviv, the capital of global internet fraud is New Delhi).

    Blacks ARE more sacred – they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public (“Daddy, why is that lady so fat?”)
     
    So thanks for admitting that 1) Ye and Irving were telling the truth and 2) the blacks are children (who lack power) and it's the parents in charge (the Jews) who have the real power. You must've missed how Irving had to grovel and the demands from Jewish groups kept getting bigger and bigger.

    If Irving was white
     
    What if Irving were a Jew?

    Replies: @Truth

  173. @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    The resentment just seethes from you.
     
    Yeah, I detest injustice and unfairness. I also loathe people punching down all the while pretending to punch up.

    You don’t know my children or their accomplishments. Think whatever you want because you don’t know the truth.
     
    Everyone knows the Ivies and other top universities scrape the bottom of the barrel with Jews while downgrading flyover state gentile whites and Asians these days. As with blacks, the onus is on Jews to demonstrate that they got in via merit. Nothing you mentioned about your daughter here leads me to think she is different.

    And learn to read the room.

    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s.
     
    Oh, how grateful we should all be that it’s less evil.

    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.
     
    I can tell you work with words and not numbers. Do you want to adjust that for SAT scores and see who’s getting a thumb on the scale there? Of course, hell will freeze over before Jews allow their SAT scores to be revealed publicly. People would explode in rage. My first year roommate in college was a Jew. His SAT score was something like 1240. He was a moron compared to most Asians and flyover gentile whites at that Ivy. Didn’t stop him from whining about anti-Semitism incessantly like you.

    At some point, you run into that so many times, you get mugged by reality, even as a previously philo-Semitic person. But keep running that “fellow whites” shtick.

    By the way, remember when you tried to argue that blacks were more sacred than Jews a while back? Meet Ye and Kyrie Irving. Your people are slipping - shouldn’t let something like this through:

    https://youtu.be/_m-gO0HSCYk

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling

    The Troll Jack D:

    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white….

    Old data, which we can check thanks to our host. “Whites” haven’t been “37%” since 2014 and that’s rounding up from 36.5%.

    Per numbers from MIT Hillel and undergraduate enrollment Jews are ~5% of these “whites.” If we assume the remaining whites are split ~50/50 male/female like the total student body (currently 52/48 with males going down) approximately 10% or 110 students in each class are white males.

    One of my best friends is a retired career administrator at MIT. Doesn’t talk about it at all anymore, and I suspect a big part of the reason is that the vast majority of the student they served would have no chance whatsoever to be students today. I certainly wouldn’t have gotten in, especially with all the Red state flyover country boxes I check.

    Probably; I did check the orthogonal box twice of showing I could do projects, and in two domains, biology and software engineering and documentation of both. Being able to do projects has strong predictive power for success at MIT. But two years in JROTC, which taught me a lot of useful things including how to teach?

    Nah, I don’t think so per our meta-host’s citation of No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life which I drilled down to the page and read in full. That’s from his invaluableThe Myth of American Meritocracy” which I gather this troll is trying to gaslight us on.

    That word as you may have heard is amazingly Merriam-Webster’s Word of the Year, and it stings, in confirming that MW decision I came across an unironic Gizmodo article meta-gaslighting us with “Gaslight’ Is Merriam-Webster’s Word of the Year for No Good Reason.”

    • LOL: tamo
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    So you are saying Jews are not white? You really could have fooled me - I am about as pale as can be ( in the sun, I burn rather than tan) but if you insist that I'm not white anymore, well I guess I'm just gonna hafta accept being thrown into that briar patch. Being non-white in future America is just going to be hell, the same as it has been for the last 400 years, but if you insist, so be it. Just remember to spell my name right on the reparations check.

  174. @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    bottom of the barrel ... Jews
     
    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything. I would put their SAT scores up against any Asians and they didn't spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward. BTW, I would love to hear your Jewish roommate's opinion of you. I think we are only getting one side of the story.

    For better or for worse, we have a "holistic" admissions system so that SAT scores are not the only measure. As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.

    It's pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian. It's similar to the Amazon feedback system which has been so gamed by Asian vendors that it's largely worthless - there are now websites that rate the reliability of Amazon product reviews based on certain flags of Asian review manipulation. So those AZXKDTLV brand headphones that come up first may not really be worthy of 5 stars. This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything - the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.

    This must be frustrating to Asians - here they have spent years going to cram school and doing other stuff (not excluding cheating in some cases) to game the SAT system and just when they have perfected it, no one wants to accept it as currency. It's similar to the North Korean "supernotes" - N. Korea spent huge effort making absolutely perfect counterfeit $100 bills (one of the ways you can detect them is that the printing quality is BETTER than on real US money) and now paper cash is increasingly obsolete.

    Blacks ARE more sacred - they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public ("Daddy, why is that lady so fat?"), who are given 2nd and 3rd chances ("Sorry ma'am, he's only 4 years old - you know how kids are.") If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie

    Jackie, did you feel/hear that loud “thump?” do you see that stream of crimson dripping onto your shoes?

    I think Twinkie took that olive branch you extended and mollywhopped you on the side of the head with it!

    If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.

    Well Old Sport, let’s be perfectly honest; If Irving was white, he probably would have been playing in the Serbian league before he said it.

    • LOL: tamo
  175. @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie

    The Troll Jack D:


    MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white....
     
    Old data, which we can check thanks to our host. "Whites" haven't been "37%" since 2014 and that's rounding up from 36.5%.

    Per numbers from MIT Hillel and undergraduate enrollment Jews are ~5% of these "whites." If we assume the remaining whites are split ~50/50 male/female like the total student body (currently 52/48 with males going down) approximately 10% or 110 students in each class are white males.

    One of my best friends is a retired career administrator at MIT. Doesn't talk about it at all anymore, and I suspect a big part of the reason is that the vast majority of the student they served would have no chance whatsoever to be students today. I certainly wouldn't have gotten in, especially with all the Red state flyover country boxes I check.

    Probably; I did check the orthogonal box twice of showing I could do projects, and in two domains, biology and software engineering and documentation of both. Being able to do projects has strong predictive power for success at MIT. But two years in JROTC, which taught me a lot of useful things including how to teach?

    Nah, I don't think so per our meta-host's citation of No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life which I drilled down to the page and read in full. That's from his invaluable "The Myth of American Meritocracy" which I gather this troll is trying to gaslight us on.

    That word as you may have heard is amazingly Merriam-Webster's Word of the Year, and it stings, in confirming that MW decision I came across an unironic Gizmodo article meta-gaslighting us with "Gaslight' Is Merriam-Webster's Word of the Year for No Good Reason."

    Replies: @Jack D

    So you are saying Jews are not white? You really could have fooled me – I am about as pale as can be ( in the sun, I burn rather than tan) but if you insist that I’m not white anymore, well I guess I’m just gonna hafta accept being thrown into that briar patch. Being non-white in future America is just going to be hell, the same as it has been for the last 400 years, but if you insist, so be it. Just remember to spell my name right on the reparations check.

  176. @Mark G.
    @Jack D


    If MIT has a special quota for Jews, it’s noticeably lower than Harvard’s. MIT is 41% Asian-American (vs. 6% in the US population) and another 10% “international” (most of whom are also Asian) vs. 37% white so if anyone is getting favored for their race there, it must be Asians.
     
    Minorites arguing with each other over who gets the most affirmative action is going to be a problem for the party of minorities, the Democrats, in the future. Affirmative action just leads to inter-ethnic and inter-racial hostility. It's better if we just do away with it. Both Asians and Jewish people are highly intelligent and don't have to worry about getting into college if it's gone. They should be focusing their energies on ending affirmative action instead of arguing with each other about who gets the most.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I used to believe in meritocratic admissions, mainly because of the anti-Semitic roots of our modern “holistic” admission system which was expressly invented in order to reduce Jewish enrollment at Harvard under their previous “admission by test” system. Also because I think otherwise, someone like me, a chicken farmer’s son from a rural HS, would not have received due consideration from Ivy admissions officers in the absence of my SAT score.

    BUT, as I said in my other post, I think that the fact that the SAT has been dumbed down (“recentered”) from my day, combined with the fact that Asians have “cracked” it, has made the SAT increasingly meaningly as a means of meritocratic measurement (and universities are beginning to recognize this, though perhaps for the wrong reasons – their idea of merit could be measured with a skin tone meter rather than an intellectual test). The S. Ct. is, I’m pretty sure, going to chuck AA anyway in its next decision.

    OTOH, if you put racial considerations aside (as they are going to have to do, at least expressly – it will still be done in a wink, wink fashion) and put the SAT aside (and grades are increasingly meaningless too) then what is left? Harvard’s “personality score” was meaningless. Putting aside the stereotype of Asians as humorless grinds, the Asians that I know have just as much “personality” as anyone else and being hard working used to be considered a virtue, not a fault.

    My proposal (and AFAIK it’s not even on the table) is to extend the SAT further (like the amps that go up to 11) so that at a place like MIT it would again be capable of separating the men from the boys. This would have to be done in such a way (if that is possible) that wasn’t subject to Asian “gaming”.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    I used to believe in meritocratic admissions, mainly because of the anti-Semitic roots of our modern “holistic” admission system which was expressly invented in order to reduce Jewish enrollment at Harvard under their previous “admission by test” system.
     
    Jeez, are you, yet again, trying hard to live up to all the nefarious Jewish stereotypes?

    You used to believe in meritocratic admissions, because that helped Jews against the gentile whites, but now that Asians are outscoring Jews, it's just all so "gamed"?

    Don't you realize how transparently self-serving and hypocritical you are?
  177. @Jack D
    @tamo


    For example, Japanese written language is incomplete without using written Chinese characters.
     
    Incomplete doesn't express it strongly enough as about 70% of Japanese is written in Chinese characters. OTOH, 100% of English is written using Roman characters. This doesn't mean that English civilization is inferior to the Roman.

    Japan and China occupy a position not unlike the UK and the Roman Empire (except that England was an actual colony of Rome and not just a tribute state like Japan). But Japan broke its tribute status in 1549 and since then has existed as a completely independent country. During that period, and especially after the opening to the West in the mid 19th century, Japan experienced rapid growth and industrialization while China was (and in some ways still is) pretty much a mess. Japan, almost uniquely among Asian countries, was able to thread the needle and become both fully Westernized and modernized and yet still traditional and Japanese.

    Saying that China was a great country before the Industrial Revolution is not saying much. You can't live in the past, especially if that past was hundreds of years ago.

    The way things are going now, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s status as the economic and technological superpower by 2050.
     
    Chinese "superpower" status is being achieved by authoritarian means. Authoritarian "superpowers" (the USSR, Nazi Germany, etc.) tend to be brittle - they are like cast iron - superficially they appear to be strong but they can shatter like glass. The current regime of China may or may not make it to 2050. It may or may not make it to next week.

    Japan OTOH is a stable democracy. It no longer has superpower pretensions but most Japanese live a happy life, economically prosperous and free from government repression.

    Replies: @tamo

    You don’t tell me anything I don’t know about Japan. I happen to be ethnic Korean. We Koreans have to know something about China and Japan.

    All the Western countries massed their wealth lomg before they became FULLY democratic. All these wealthy Western countries gave voting rights ONLY to WHITE PRIVILEGED MALES at FIRST
    Even in America, not all the adult females couldn’t vote even though the female suffrage act was ratified in 1920
    In a lot of European countries. women were NOT allowed to vote until the mid to late 20th century (France in 1944, Switzerland for federal election only in 1971)
    Do you remember that rich “democratic” America had the legal. segregation against blacks in the South until 1964?

    Authoritarian China’s economy in 1980 was about 10% that of the America and now the Chinese economy is about 75% of American economy in nominal terms. but in PPP terms, Chinese economy is bigger than American economy.

    A better comparison can be made comparing China with India. In 1980 the economic sizes of both countries were about the same. But now, authoritarian China’s economy is 5 times bigger than “democratic” Indian economy.

    Just look at American and European economies. They have been growing at extremely low levels. Democratic Japan is even worse. That country’s economy has hardly grown in the past 20 years.

    The economic and moral declines in America and European countries are really pitiful.

    If America wants to beat authoritarian China, America must become like China.
    America must stop illegal migration, LGBTQ, BLM. Affirmative Action etc.

    America can not do this kinds of urgent things with it’s dysfunctional so-called liberal democratic political system.

    What America needs is a strong right-wing authoritarian political system like China, Otherwise say goodbye to good old U,S.A.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo

    When I was in college, someone from Lawrence Klein's outfit (WEFA) gave a lecture to my freshman economics class. For those who don't know, Klein invented econometrics, which is the (semi)science of computer forecasting future economic performance based on a solving a system of simultaneous equations with various current period inputs - basically the same way that future weather is forecasted (weather forecasts only have to go out 10 days) and for this he received the Nobel Prize. He was also a card carrying Communist.

    Anyway, this fellow from Klein's shop showed us a graph with two lines on it. Line 1 was US GDP and Line 2 was USSR GDP. US GDP was then higher than USSR GDP but USSR GDP was growing faster so in X years, USSR GDP would cross US GDP. This was just a matter of science.

    It didn't turn out that way. It turns out that it's rarely a good idea to do a linear extrapolation of trend lines because trends have a way of changing. The USSR continued growing faster than the US economy until one day it didn't and started heading in the other direction. It also turned out (and this was shocking) that the Communists who ran the USSR were lying about their economic statistics in order to make themselves appear more prosperous than they really were. Can you believe that authoritarian Communist regimes lie to their people? It's hard to believe but it was true.

    The brittleness of the Xi regime is on display right now. Anything is possible - he could rule until he is 96 (Jiang Zemin just died today and he was 96) or he could be gone next week. The Chinese have already said goodbye to economic growth because it is impossible under conditions of Covid Zero. You can have economic growth or you can have Covid Zero but you can't have both (though maybe if you play your cards just wrong you can have neither).

    Replies: @tamo

  178. @Somsel
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Visit the Soju Museum in Andong for a fascinating diorama of two yangban sipping brandy-like soju.

    I brought home a bottle.

    Today, public school teachers are treated as cultural descendants of the yangban, including the high incomes.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Yangbans were de facto hereditary, more like the older Chinese aristocracy.

    Later Chinese scholar-officialdom were open to all of society. Family clans that can afford cram schools get an edge, but not infrequently there’s some bright youngster from a humble family gets top score on the exam. A enlightened system on paper but in reality can be something else.

    Soju goes great with budae-jjigae.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it. Even though yangbans were hereditary aristocrats. if they wanted to become government officials, they had to pass very grueling civil service exams called Gua Ge.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Jack D
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The stuff that they call soju today has nothing to do with the historical product, which was a distilled rice wine. In 1965, the South Korean government prohibited the traditional distillation of soju from rice, in order to alleviate rice shortages. Instead, fake soju was created using highly distilled ethanol (95% ABV) made from sweet potatoes and tapioca, which is mixed with flavorings, artificial sweeteners, and lots of water. All producers have to buy the ethanol from the same monopoly source - the Korea Ethanol Supplies Company. Although the law has changed, most soju is still the fake product because no one even remembers what the real product tasted like.

    Budae-jjigae was a stew made with leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters. Yum.

    Korea went thru a poverty bottleneck and the society that emerged still bears its scars.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  179. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Somsel

    Yangbans were de facto hereditary, more like the older Chinese aristocracy.

    Later Chinese scholar-officialdom were open to all of society. Family clans that can afford cram schools get an edge, but not infrequently there's some bright youngster from a humble family gets top score on the exam. A enlightened system on paper but in reality can be something else.

    Soju goes great with budae-jjigae.

    Replies: @tamo, @Jack D

    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it. Even though yangbans were hereditary aristocrats. if they wanted to become government officials, they had to pass very grueling civil service exams called Gua Ge.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it.
     
    The other commenter is correct and you are incorrect. Technically the Joseon civil service examinations were open to all, but the untouchables. Yangban status was legally not hereditary and was gained by passing the exams and becoming civil servants. That meant that if your children or grandchildren failed to acquire the status through the examination, they could lose the status. In reality, those in power made the cost of studying for and passing the exams so high that only extremely few people hailing from non-Yangban parents could afford it. And this tendency was particularly pronounced in rural areas where the gentry dominated the governance and excluded outsiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangban

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

  180. @Recently Based
    @Twinkie

    Do either of you guys have any evidence for the motivations for changing the SAT in the early 1990s?

    (Not meant as a snide question -- I've just been curious about this for some time.)

    Thanks

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Corvinus

  181. @tamo
    @Alden

    You sound like a Trump and Faux News -worshipping moronic ape foaming at the mouth whom I try very hard to avoid in my everyday life. Go back to your cave, LOL !!!

    Replies: @Alden

    Hurricane Katrina happened years before Trump ran for president. I never watch Fox or any TV news programs.

    Your comments about Hurricane Katrina were just clip and paste from the New York Times CNN and the rest of the liberal lying media.

    You blathered on about FEMA when you don’t even know what the agency’s responsibilities and functions are. And when FEMA operations begin after not during a disaster. Your comment about FEMA was gross ignorance.

    Your comment about FEMA was totally ignorant. Just a copy and paste from the lying liberal media.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Alden

    Hey dummy, I think you have a big reading comprehensive problem. You go back read my posts, I never mentioned FEMA.

    I don't watch tv news programs. FOX, CNN, MSNBC they are all hopelessly biased one way another.
    Again I never mentioned your favorite obsession FEMA, you are such a stupid f---, lol !!!

  182. @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    highlighted a lot internal divisions in Korean society
     
    I once read an aphorism from Ireland, which might as well have come from pre-modern Korea as well: "The drink ruins a man - it makes him lose his head and shoot at his landlord and it makes him miss."

    Koreans have been the Irishmen of the Orient for a long time now. They may or may not resist foreign overlords, but, golly, they'll make sure their domestic rivals don't come to power and rule over them.

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea's celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin? When Toyotomi Hideyoshi launched the invasion of Korea, most Korean generals and admirals were either incompetent or cowardly. The King was both and fled for his life to the Chinese border and abandoned his subjects to their fate. Admiral Yi was the only one sober, competent, and courageous enough to fight the Japanese and beat them (repeatedly).

    And his reward for this loyalty and patriotism? He was stripped of his command through court intrigue and was imprisoned while his politically favored replacement promptly had almost the entire fleet (that Yi had carefully built up and preserved) destroyed by the Japanese. Yi was only freed, because the Korean court became desperate. He promptly resumed command and destroyed the Japanese fleet of over 300 ships with only 13 remaining vessels. And he died in a later battle while pursuing the defeated Japanese fleet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin#Reactions_by_Joseon_government

    Reactions by Joseon government

    Admiral Yi repeatedly defeated the Japanese invasion force in battle, while preserving the lives of his soldiers and respecting their families. Yi was supported by the people of Joseon not only for his victories, but his kindness and gratitude towards those affected by the hardships of war. They had great faith in Admiral Yi and he was regarded as more than just an admiral.[29]

    By contrast, King Seonjo accomplished nothing. The Joseon Dynasty's king had failed to defend the kingdom and his cowardly flight to Uiju left his reputation in ruins. The Joseon government was plagued by factionalism driven by jealousy; the ministers despised the successful and virtuous admiral, and manipulated King Seonjo to view Admiral Yi as a potential traitor. It is plausible to believe that King Seonjo and his court truly feared Admiral Yi's victories and reputation amongst the people as the foundations for a revolt[30] leading King Seonjo to have him arrested and tortured. Defended by his loyal friend, Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong, Admiral Yi was spared execution twice. The conspiracies worked against Admiral Yi from gaining the men, materiel, and operational freedom to decisively destroy the Japanese invasion force.

    It should also be noted that according to a recent Choson Ilbo article, historians have discovered written government records of the Joseon government's reaction to Admiral Yi's death. The records show that King Seonjo expressed a "blank expression", offering no signs of sadness or shock.[31] Nearly all awards to Admiral Yi and his deeds were awarded posthumously.[32]
     

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea’s celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin?

    He’s well-known in PRC. There was a hugely popular vernacular history of Ming that covered him at length. Also about the ethnic Korean Li Rusong clan of Ming army.

    Patriotic heroes backstabbed was feature not a bug in Han Chinese dynasties, Song and Ming: Yu Qian, Yuan Chonghuan, Yue Fei, Qi Jiguang, Yang Family Generals, many cases.

    This continued with CCP who had backstabbed KMT in many ways in the war with Japan.

    Under Yuan and Qing this actually didn’t so much occur because the Mongol Manchu warrior elites sat on top and rewarded Han Chinese who’d perform militarily.

    In commie Russia and I think Eastern Roman Empire there were a lot instances.

    There’s not a history of this in Japan, who had not copy from China the practice of scholar-official bureaucracy subordinating the military. The samurais have had their share of civil wars but at end of day there are two Chinas and two Koreas, but not two Japans.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    There’s not a history of this in Japan
     
    Tokugawa Ieyasu declined to participate in the Korean invasion and preserved his own forces and, as soon as Hideyoshi died, backstabbed the Toyotomi, to whom he had submitted earlier. Sengoku Jidai is full of such betrayals. How do you think Oda Nobunaga, who was well on his way to unite Japan, prematurely met his end?

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  183. @Recently Based
    @Alden

    It's required if you're white or Asian and go to a private r good public school, if you want to have any chance of getting in without some massive hook.

    It's only actually not required where they will not accept it from anyone (e.g., UC).

    Replies: @Alden

    Read the websites of all the Ivy League colleges. Read about their SAT submission policies.

    Of course you have to know the names of all the Ivy League colleges to check out their websites. Can you write a list of the Ivy League colleges without asking google?

  184. @Truth
    @Alden


    The ignorance of the men of UNZ never ceases to amaze. First a bunch of ignorant moron ancient childless grandchild less codgers who think colleges still require SAT scores.
     
    So Aldey, what are you trying to imply?

    Replies: @Alden

    I’m not implying. I’ve written it many times. Colleges no longer require SAT submissions because the SATs are racist against dumb people.

    So why pretend it’s 1970?

  185. @Jack D
    @Twinkie


    bottom of the barrel ... Jews
     
    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything. I would put their SAT scores up against any Asians and they didn't spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward. BTW, I would love to hear your Jewish roommate's opinion of you. I think we are only getting one side of the story.

    For better or for worse, we have a "holistic" admissions system so that SAT scores are not the only measure. As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.

    It's pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian. It's similar to the Amazon feedback system which has been so gamed by Asian vendors that it's largely worthless - there are now websites that rate the reliability of Amazon product reviews based on certain flags of Asian review manipulation. So those AZXKDTLV brand headphones that come up first may not really be worthy of 5 stars. This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything - the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.

    This must be frustrating to Asians - here they have spent years going to cram school and doing other stuff (not excluding cheating in some cases) to game the SAT system and just when they have perfected it, no one wants to accept it as currency. It's similar to the North Korean "supernotes" - N. Korea spent huge effort making absolutely perfect counterfeit $100 bills (one of the ways you can detect them is that the printing quality is BETTER than on real US money) and now paper cash is increasingly obsolete.

    Blacks ARE more sacred - they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public ("Daddy, why is that lady so fat?"), who are given 2nd and 3rd chances ("Sorry ma'am, he's only 4 years old - you know how kids are.") If Irving was white, he would be playing basketball in the Serbian league after what he said.

    Replies: @Truth, @Twinkie

    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything.

    Sure, they are stars, just like the black and Hispanic kids who are admitted via the “holistic” admissions.

    any Asians and they didn’t spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward.

    Question: who was Stanley Kaplan? Let me jog your memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Kaplan

    As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.

    No, you innumerate self-serving propagandist, the new SAT, made easier, compresses the right tail of the scores. The net result is that it reduces the gap between the truly high scores and the next tier. That’s why there are far more perfect scores now than in the 1980’s. This tends to reduce the gap between Asians and others. The fact that Asians are outperforming others even more, I suspect, has to do with the greatly increased selectivity of Asian immigration – largely Indian/South Asian – in the main.

    It’s pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges

    That’s just a convenient cope.

    so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian.

    More “fellow whites,” bullshit. I posted this information before – someone reworked the numbers and modeled the student body if the admissions criteria at elite schools became meritocratic. The result was, yes, Asian numbers go up (to about 30-40% – I don’t remember the exact figure), but this was at the expense of black and Hispanics who collapse to under 5% together. The white fraction would stay roughly the same (about 45-50% I think), but what kind of whites would get in would change. You can guess who-whom in reverse.

    This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything – the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.

    My, the Chutzpah. You belong to an ethnic group that is highly overrepresented in fraud and financial manipulation. Setting aside my own particular ethnic group, East Asians in general are underrepresented in such (white collar) crimes. It isn’t the Asians who made the economy of this country predatory and rent-seeking and its culture coarse and degenerate via dominance of the media and what one Jewish writer self-congratulatorily called “verbal brio.” But, fear not, the “Asians” that your co-ethnics favor and have flooded this country of late – South Asians – share this gift of the “verbal brio” (unsurprisingly while the capital of global financial crimes is Tel Aviv, the capital of global internet fraud is New Delhi).

    Blacks ARE more sacred – they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public (“Daddy, why is that lady so fat?”)

    So thanks for admitting that 1) Ye and Irving were telling the truth and 2) the blacks are children (who lack power) and it’s the parents in charge (the Jews) who have the real power. You must’ve missed how Irving had to grovel and the demands from Jewish groups kept getting bigger and bigger.

    If Irving was white

    What if Irving were a Jew?

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Twinkie




    Sure, they are stars, just like the black and Hispanic kids who are admitted via the “holistic” admissions.
     
    LMAO! Twinkie, settle down young feller, the ref is about to stop it!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIELFX6CFyo
  186. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    Do you know about the Imjin War and Korea’s celebrated military hero, Admiral Yi Sun-sin?

    He's well-known in PRC. There was a hugely popular vernacular history of Ming that covered him at length. Also about the ethnic Korean Li Rusong clan of Ming army.

    Patriotic heroes backstabbed was feature not a bug in Han Chinese dynasties, Song and Ming: Yu Qian, Yuan Chonghuan, Yue Fei, Qi Jiguang, Yang Family Generals, many cases.

    This continued with CCP who had backstabbed KMT in many ways in the war with Japan.

    Under Yuan and Qing this actually didn't so much occur because the Mongol Manchu warrior elites sat on top and rewarded Han Chinese who'd perform militarily.

    In commie Russia and I think Eastern Roman Empire there were a lot instances.

    There's not a history of this in Japan, who had not copy from China the practice of scholar-official bureaucracy subordinating the military. The samurais have had their share of civil wars but at end of day there are two Chinas and two Koreas, but not two Japans.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    There’s not a history of this in Japan

    Tokugawa Ieyasu declined to participate in the Korean invasion and preserved his own forces and, as soon as Hideyoshi died, backstabbed the Toyotomi, to whom he had submitted earlier. Sengoku Jidai is full of such betrayals. How do you think Oda Nobunaga, who was well on his way to unite Japan, prematurely met his end?

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    I meant specifically a type of institutional betrayal, of military men by civilian bureaucrats, or as collateral casualty of bureaucratic faction wars. (maybe like Rambo)

    Yue Fei was killed after a show trial by the Southern Song emperor abetted by scholar-officials who feared if Yue had won victory they'd have to contend with the rump northern government.

    Yuan Chonghuan was arrested and killed on false charges of treason probably planted by Manchus; details are complicated but he was also on the wrong side of a Ming bureaucratic faction war. Yu Qian I've told you about.

    The Japanese have plenty of internal fights, IJA vs. IJN, Kōdōha vs. Tōseiha. But their biggest institutional fail in WWII was the civilian bureaucracy* failing to restrain the military, in particular Kantō-gun, thus failing to coalesce on a unified strategy. Chiang Kai-shek knew this exactly and deemed them unlikely to prevail over Western Allies.

    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack. The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him. (Although Hitler granted them comfortable estates)

    Replies: @Twinkie

  187. @Jack D
    @Mark G.

    I used to believe in meritocratic admissions, mainly because of the anti-Semitic roots of our modern "holistic" admission system which was expressly invented in order to reduce Jewish enrollment at Harvard under their previous "admission by test" system. Also because I think otherwise, someone like me, a chicken farmer's son from a rural HS, would not have received due consideration from Ivy admissions officers in the absence of my SAT score.

    BUT, as I said in my other post, I think that the fact that the SAT has been dumbed down ("recentered") from my day, combined with the fact that Asians have "cracked" it, has made the SAT increasingly meaningly as a means of meritocratic measurement (and universities are beginning to recognize this, though perhaps for the wrong reasons - their idea of merit could be measured with a skin tone meter rather than an intellectual test). The S. Ct. is, I'm pretty sure, going to chuck AA anyway in its next decision.

    OTOH, if you put racial considerations aside (as they are going to have to do, at least expressly - it will still be done in a wink, wink fashion) and put the SAT aside (and grades are increasingly meaningless too) then what is left? Harvard's "personality score" was meaningless. Putting aside the stereotype of Asians as humorless grinds, the Asians that I know have just as much "personality" as anyone else and being hard working used to be considered a virtue, not a fault.

    My proposal (and AFAIK it's not even on the table) is to extend the SAT further (like the amps that go up to 11) so that at a place like MIT it would again be capable of separating the men from the boys. This would have to be done in such a way (if that is possible) that wasn't subject to Asian "gaming".

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I used to believe in meritocratic admissions, mainly because of the anti-Semitic roots of our modern “holistic” admission system which was expressly invented in order to reduce Jewish enrollment at Harvard under their previous “admission by test” system.

    Jeez, are you, yet again, trying hard to live up to all the nefarious Jewish stereotypes?

    You used to believe in meritocratic admissions, because that helped Jews against the gentile whites, but now that Asians are outscoring Jews, it’s just all so “gamed”?

    Don’t you realize how transparently self-serving and hypocritical you are?

  188. @Alden
    @tamo

    Hurricane Katrina happened years before Trump ran for president. I never watch Fox or any TV news programs.

    Your comments about Hurricane Katrina were just clip and paste from the New York Times CNN and the rest of the liberal lying media.

    You blathered on about FEMA when you don’t even know what the agency’s responsibilities and functions are. And when FEMA operations begin after not during a disaster. Your comment about FEMA was gross ignorance.

    Your comment about FEMA was totally ignorant. Just a copy and paste from the lying liberal media.

    Replies: @tamo

    Hey dummy, I think you have a big reading comprehensive problem. You go back read my posts, I never mentioned FEMA.

    I don’t watch tv news programs. FOX, CNN, MSNBC they are all hopelessly biased one way another.
    Again I never mentioned your favorite obsession FEMA, you are such a stupid f—, lol !!!

  189. @tamo
    @Jack D

    You don't tell me anything I don't know about Japan. I happen to be ethnic Korean. We Koreans have to know something about China and Japan.

    All the Western countries massed their wealth lomg before they became FULLY democratic. All these wealthy Western countries gave voting rights ONLY to WHITE PRIVILEGED MALES at FIRST
    Even in America, not all the adult females couldn't vote even though the female suffrage act was ratified in 1920
    In a lot of European countries. women were NOT allowed to vote until the mid to late 20th century (France in 1944, Switzerland for federal election only in 1971)
    Do you remember that rich "democratic" America had the legal. segregation against blacks in the South until 1964?

    Authoritarian China's economy in 1980 was about 10% that of the America and now the Chinese economy is about 75% of American economy in nominal terms. but in PPP terms, Chinese economy is bigger than American economy.

    A better comparison can be made comparing China with India. In 1980 the economic sizes of both countries were about the same. But now, authoritarian China's economy is 5 times bigger than "democratic" Indian economy.

    Just look at American and European economies. They have been growing at extremely low levels. Democratic Japan is even worse. That country's economy has hardly grown in the past 20 years.

    The economic and moral declines in America and European countries are really pitiful.

    If America wants to beat authoritarian China, America must become like China.
    America must stop illegal migration, LGBTQ, BLM. Affirmative Action etc.

    America can not do this kinds of urgent things with it's dysfunctional so-called liberal democratic political system.

    What America needs is a strong right-wing authoritarian political system like China, Otherwise say goodbye to good old U,S.A.

    Replies: @Jack D

    When I was in college, someone from Lawrence Klein’s outfit (WEFA) gave a lecture to my freshman economics class. For those who don’t know, Klein invented econometrics, which is the (semi)science of computer forecasting future economic performance based on a solving a system of simultaneous equations with various current period inputs – basically the same way that future weather is forecasted (weather forecasts only have to go out 10 days) and for this he received the Nobel Prize. He was also a card carrying Communist.

    Anyway, this fellow from Klein’s shop showed us a graph with two lines on it. Line 1 was US GDP and Line 2 was USSR GDP. US GDP was then higher than USSR GDP but USSR GDP was growing faster so in X years, USSR GDP would cross US GDP. This was just a matter of science.

    It didn’t turn out that way. It turns out that it’s rarely a good idea to do a linear extrapolation of trend lines because trends have a way of changing. The USSR continued growing faster than the US economy until one day it didn’t and started heading in the other direction. It also turned out (and this was shocking) that the Communists who ran the USSR were lying about their economic statistics in order to make themselves appear more prosperous than they really were. Can you believe that authoritarian Communist regimes lie to their people? It’s hard to believe but it was true.

    The brittleness of the Xi regime is on display right now. Anything is possible – he could rule until he is 96 (Jiang Zemin just died today and he was 96) or he could be gone next week. The Chinese have already said goodbye to economic growth because it is impossible under conditions of Covid Zero. You can have economic growth or you can have Covid Zero but you can’t have both (though maybe if you play your cards just wrong you can have neither).

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    China is not USSR that never had a vibrant private sector economy as China has and USSR kept it's currency ruble very overvalued against the U.S. dollar about 3.5 dollars to 1 ruble. That was a big joke.

    There was no way the Soviet Union could keep it's enormous military spending and at the same time it could spend a lot of funds for social welfare without a healthy thriving private sector economy. So collapse of the Soviet economy was a matter of when not if.

    On the other hand , according to the Big Mac Index by the Economist magazine, the Chinese yuan is undervalued more than 30% against the U.S. dollar. That is the only reason why American economy looks bigger than Chinese economy in NOMINAL EXCHANGE RATE terms,

    Also I might add IMF and World Bank have no problems trusting Chinese Data.

    You just compare the pictures of Shanghai or Shenzhen in 1980 and 2020, then you will see the phenomenal Chinese economic growth is no b.s.

    According to recent America's Pew Research Center and Kennedy School of Havard University surveys, more than 80 % o f Chinese trust their government.

    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it's primary concern is saving people's lives specially old people's not economic progress at the expense of people's lives.

    Just look at the U.S.. More than million Americans died because America gave up it's fight against covid very early so that still about 300 people, mostly old ones die everyday.

    China has started easing it's strict covid policy. Vast majority of the Chinese protesters are against strict covid policy not for the regime change that was called for by only few protesters

    Also there is no organized opposition to the CCP that has very highly organized internal security systems. So anybody who thinks there might be a regime change in China is a fool.

    Replies: @Jack D

  190. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Somsel

    Yangbans were de facto hereditary, more like the older Chinese aristocracy.

    Later Chinese scholar-officialdom were open to all of society. Family clans that can afford cram schools get an edge, but not infrequently there's some bright youngster from a humble family gets top score on the exam. A enlightened system on paper but in reality can be something else.

    Soju goes great with budae-jjigae.

    Replies: @tamo, @Jack D

    The stuff that they call soju today has nothing to do with the historical product, which was a distilled rice wine. In 1965, the South Korean government prohibited the traditional distillation of soju from rice, in order to alleviate rice shortages. Instead, fake soju was created using highly distilled ethanol (95% ABV) made from sweet potatoes and tapioca, which is mixed with flavorings, artificial sweeteners, and lots of water. All producers have to buy the ethanol from the same monopoly source – the Korea Ethanol Supplies Company. Although the law has changed, most soju is still the fake product because no one even remembers what the real product tasted like.

    Budae-jjigae was a stew made with leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters. Yum.

    Korea went thru a poverty bottleneck and the society that emerged still bears its scars.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    Although the law has changed, most soju is still the fake product because no one even remembers what the real product tasted like.
     
    You really ought to read more carefully when you search for things online and then try to sound knowledgeable.

    The original Soju ("Andong Soju"), which is distilled rice wine, was widely available throughout the country prior to the 1960's, especially in the pre-Korean War times. And it - along with other Soju varieties - has been available for 20+ years now.


    Budae-jjigae was a stew made with leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters. Yum.
     
    Again, stop repeating nonsense you half-comprehended from the internet.

    Budae-Jiggae ("military unit stew") was not made from "leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters." It was originally made from surplus American military-issued preserved food (or food otherwise available at the military commissary) such as Spam (Spam is still beloved in South Korea) and Wiener sausages combined with Korean ingredients such as noodles, fish cake, etc.

    Then it became very popular due to its "heartiness" as an accompaniment for alcoholic beverages, especially for men gathering after work, and persists to this day as sort of a going-out/party food:

    https://recipeflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/army-base-stew-budae-jjigae-eng.jpg

    Stop trying to "correct" people with half-baked stuff you read online. "Wise men speak, because they have something to say. Fools speak, because they have to say something."

  191. @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    No one who knows my kids thinks they are bottom of the barrel anything.
     
    Sure, they are stars, just like the black and Hispanic kids who are admitted via the "holistic" admissions.

    any Asians and they didn’t spend their afternoons attending cram school from the age of 8 onward.
     
    Question: who was Stanley Kaplan? Let me jog your memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Kaplan

    As Alden points out, they are increasingly not the measure at all.
     
    No, you innumerate self-serving propagandist, the new SAT, made easier, compresses the right tail of the scores. The net result is that it reduces the gap between the truly high scores and the next tier. That's why there are far more perfect scores now than in the 1980's. This tends to reduce the gap between Asians and others. The fact that Asians are outperforming others even more, I suspect, has to do with the greatly increased selectivity of Asian immigration - largely Indian/South Asian - in the main.

    It’s pretty clear that one way or another, Asians have gamed the SAT so colleges
     
    That's just a convenient cope.

    so colleges increasingly have to look at other things or else resign themselves to being 100% Asian.
     
    More "fellow whites," bullshit. I posted this information before - someone reworked the numbers and modeled the student body if the admissions criteria at elite schools became meritocratic. The result was, yes, Asian numbers go up (to about 30-40% - I don't remember the exact figure), but this was at the expense of black and Hispanics who collapse to under 5% together. The white fraction would stay roughly the same (about 45-50% I think), but what kind of whites would get in would change. You can guess who-whom in reverse.

    This is pretty much the Asian approach to everything – the only important thing is the result and not how you get to the result so all means are permissible.
     
    My, the Chutzpah. You belong to an ethnic group that is highly overrepresented in fraud and financial manipulation. Setting aside my own particular ethnic group, East Asians in general are underrepresented in such (white collar) crimes. It isn't the Asians who made the economy of this country predatory and rent-seeking and its culture coarse and degenerate via dominance of the media and what one Jewish writer self-congratulatorily called "verbal brio." But, fear not, the "Asians" that your co-ethnics favor and have flooded this country of late - South Asians - share this gift of the "verbal brio" (unsurprisingly while the capital of global financial crimes is Tel Aviv, the capital of global internet fraud is New Delhi).

    Blacks ARE more sacred – they are treated like small children who blurt out impolite things in public (“Daddy, why is that lady so fat?”)
     
    So thanks for admitting that 1) Ye and Irving were telling the truth and 2) the blacks are children (who lack power) and it's the parents in charge (the Jews) who have the real power. You must've missed how Irving had to grovel and the demands from Jewish groups kept getting bigger and bigger.

    If Irving was white
     
    What if Irving were a Jew?

    Replies: @Truth

    Sure, they are stars, just like the black and Hispanic kids who are admitted via the “holistic” admissions.

    LMAO! Twinkie, settle down young feller, the ref is about to stop it!

    • LOL: tamo
  192. @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it. Even though yangbans were hereditary aristocrats. if they wanted to become government officials, they had to pass very grueling civil service exams called Gua Ge.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it.

    The other commenter is correct and you are incorrect. Technically the Joseon civil service examinations were open to all, but the untouchables. Yangban status was legally not hereditary and was gained by passing the exams and becoming civil servants. That meant that if your children or grandchildren failed to acquire the status through the examination, they could lose the status. In reality, those in power made the cost of studying for and passing the exams so high that only extremely few people hailing from non-Yangban parents could afford it. And this tendency was particularly pronounced in rural areas where the gentry dominated the governance and excluded outsiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangban

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    No, you are wrong. I was born in Korea and raised there, Only yangbans could take civil service exams. Even if you or your children or grand children failed civil service exams, they were still yangbans.

    , @tamo
    @Twinkie

    Don't trust everything Wikipedia says. A lot of times their information is wrong. Let me ask you this. Are you of Korean descent ? Do you speak Korean? were you born and raised in Korea?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  193. @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    There’s not a history of this in Japan
     
    Tokugawa Ieyasu declined to participate in the Korean invasion and preserved his own forces and, as soon as Hideyoshi died, backstabbed the Toyotomi, to whom he had submitted earlier. Sengoku Jidai is full of such betrayals. How do you think Oda Nobunaga, who was well on his way to unite Japan, prematurely met his end?

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I meant specifically a type of institutional betrayal, of military men by civilian bureaucrats, or as collateral casualty of bureaucratic faction wars. (maybe like Rambo)

    Yue Fei was killed after a show trial by the Southern Song emperor abetted by scholar-officials who feared if Yue had won victory they’d have to contend with the rump northern government.

    Yuan Chonghuan was arrested and killed on false charges of treason probably planted by Manchus; details are complicated but he was also on the wrong side of a Ming bureaucratic faction war. Yu Qian I’ve told you about.

    The Japanese have plenty of internal fights, IJA vs. IJN, Kōdōha vs. Tōseiha. But their biggest institutional fail in WWII was the civilian bureaucracy* failing to restrain the military, in particular Kantō-gun, thus failing to coalesce on a unified strategy. Chiang Kai-shek knew this exactly and deemed them unlikely to prevail over Western Allies.

    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack. The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him. (Although Hitler granted them comfortable estates)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack.
     
    The Nazi bureaucracy did not have a "tight control over the Wehrmacht" - that was a major reason why the Waffen-SS was enlarged into a conventional military force from what was once merely a bodyguard for Hitler.

    The saying in Germany was, die Luftwaffe was enthusiastically Nazi, das Heer was Republican, and die Kriegsmarine was monarchist (funny thing about German: air force and navy are feminine nouns, but army is a neutral noun, just as a dog - das Hund - is neutral, but a cat - die Katze - is feminine). Admiral Canaris, who served as the head of Abwehr, the German military intelligence, and who engaged in intrigue to oppose Hitler and the Nazis, was emblematic of the sentiment among the naval officers.

    The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him.
     
    They weren't demoted (e.g. von Manstein remained a Generalfeldmarschall) and they weren't sidelined "for fear that they would overshadow" Hitler.

    First of all, all of them eventually encountered failures in operational command. Second, they often clashed with Hitler on the issue of strategy and operational art - both Guderian and von Manstein wanted to cease large scale attacks on the Eastern Front by 1943 and instead husband resources carefully (esp. mechanized elements) and engage in a series of "elastic" or mobile defense or baited counterattacks to bleed the Soviet Army, the model being the Second Battle of Kharkov, in which more than 250,000 Soviets were killed or captured at a loss of only 20,000 Germans.

    There was never an "overshadowing" of Der Führer by these men. Even when sidelined from operational command, they continued to fulfill some functional roles, Guderian, for example, serving as the Inspector General of Armored Troops and later even Acting Chief of Army General Staff (in which capacity he fervently pushed for the Nazification of the army officer corps).

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  194. @Jack D
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The stuff that they call soju today has nothing to do with the historical product, which was a distilled rice wine. In 1965, the South Korean government prohibited the traditional distillation of soju from rice, in order to alleviate rice shortages. Instead, fake soju was created using highly distilled ethanol (95% ABV) made from sweet potatoes and tapioca, which is mixed with flavorings, artificial sweeteners, and lots of water. All producers have to buy the ethanol from the same monopoly source - the Korea Ethanol Supplies Company. Although the law has changed, most soju is still the fake product because no one even remembers what the real product tasted like.

    Budae-jjigae was a stew made with leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters. Yum.

    Korea went thru a poverty bottleneck and the society that emerged still bears its scars.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Although the law has changed, most soju is still the fake product because no one even remembers what the real product tasted like.

    You really ought to read more carefully when you search for things online and then try to sound knowledgeable.

    The original Soju (“Andong Soju”), which is distilled rice wine, was widely available throughout the country prior to the 1960’s, especially in the pre-Korean War times. And it – along with other Soju varieties – has been available for 20+ years now.

    Budae-jjigae was a stew made with leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters. Yum.

    Again, stop repeating nonsense you half-comprehended from the internet.

    Budae-Jiggae (“military unit stew”) was not made from “leftovers procured from American army base dumpsters.” It was originally made from surplus American military-issued preserved food (or food otherwise available at the military commissary) such as Spam (Spam is still beloved in South Korea) and Wiener sausages combined with Korean ingredients such as noodles, fish cake, etc.

    Then it became very popular due to its “heartiness” as an accompaniment for alcoholic beverages, especially for men gathering after work, and persists to this day as sort of a going-out/party food:

    Stop trying to “correct” people with half-baked stuff you read online. “Wise men speak, because they have something to say. Fools speak, because they have to say something.”

  195. @Jack D
    @tamo

    When I was in college, someone from Lawrence Klein's outfit (WEFA) gave a lecture to my freshman economics class. For those who don't know, Klein invented econometrics, which is the (semi)science of computer forecasting future economic performance based on a solving a system of simultaneous equations with various current period inputs - basically the same way that future weather is forecasted (weather forecasts only have to go out 10 days) and for this he received the Nobel Prize. He was also a card carrying Communist.

    Anyway, this fellow from Klein's shop showed us a graph with two lines on it. Line 1 was US GDP and Line 2 was USSR GDP. US GDP was then higher than USSR GDP but USSR GDP was growing faster so in X years, USSR GDP would cross US GDP. This was just a matter of science.

    It didn't turn out that way. It turns out that it's rarely a good idea to do a linear extrapolation of trend lines because trends have a way of changing. The USSR continued growing faster than the US economy until one day it didn't and started heading in the other direction. It also turned out (and this was shocking) that the Communists who ran the USSR were lying about their economic statistics in order to make themselves appear more prosperous than they really were. Can you believe that authoritarian Communist regimes lie to their people? It's hard to believe but it was true.

    The brittleness of the Xi regime is on display right now. Anything is possible - he could rule until he is 96 (Jiang Zemin just died today and he was 96) or he could be gone next week. The Chinese have already said goodbye to economic growth because it is impossible under conditions of Covid Zero. You can have economic growth or you can have Covid Zero but you can't have both (though maybe if you play your cards just wrong you can have neither).

    Replies: @tamo

    China is not USSR that never had a vibrant private sector economy as China has and USSR kept it’s currency ruble very overvalued against the U.S. dollar about 3.5 dollars to 1 ruble. That was a big joke.

    There was no way the Soviet Union could keep it’s enormous military spending and at the same time it could spend a lot of funds for social welfare without a healthy thriving private sector economy. So collapse of the Soviet economy was a matter of when not if.

    On the other hand , according to the Big Mac Index by the Economist magazine, the Chinese yuan is undervalued more than 30% against the U.S. dollar. That is the only reason why American economy looks bigger than Chinese economy in NOMINAL EXCHANGE RATE terms,

    Also I might add IMF and World Bank have no problems trusting Chinese Data.

    You just compare the pictures of Shanghai or Shenzhen in 1980 and 2020, then you will see the phenomenal Chinese economic growth is no b.s.

    According to recent America’s Pew Research Center and Kennedy School of Havard University surveys, more than 80 % o f Chinese trust their government.

    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it’s primary concern is saving people’s lives specially old people’s not economic progress at the expense of people’s lives.

    Just look at the U.S.. More than million Americans died because America gave up it’s fight against covid very early so that still about 300 people, mostly old ones die everyday.

    China has started easing it’s strict covid policy. Vast majority of the Chinese protesters are against strict covid policy not for the regime change that was called for by only few protesters

    Also there is no organized opposition to the CCP that has very highly organized internal security systems. So anybody who thinks there might be a regime change in China is a fool.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo


    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it’s primary concern is saving people’s lives specially old people’s not economic progress at the expense of people’s lives.
     
    If they care about people's lives why do they weld their doors shut so they are unable to escape in a fire? CPC has royally screwed this up for the usual chauvinist reasons - they refused to buy foreign vaccines and the Chinese vaccine is fake like most Chinese products. They have lost the mandate of heaven. Now the are photoshopping masks onto the crowds at the World Cup because they don't want the Chinese people to know that the epidemic is over outside of China.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

  196. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it.
     
    The other commenter is correct and you are incorrect. Technically the Joseon civil service examinations were open to all, but the untouchables. Yangban status was legally not hereditary and was gained by passing the exams and becoming civil servants. That meant that if your children or grandchildren failed to acquire the status through the examination, they could lose the status. In reality, those in power made the cost of studying for and passing the exams so high that only extremely few people hailing from non-Yangban parents could afford it. And this tendency was particularly pronounced in rural areas where the gentry dominated the governance and excluded outsiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangban

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    No, you are wrong. I was born in Korea and raised there, Only yangbans could take civil service exams. Even if you or your children or grand children failed civil service exams, they were still yangbans.

    • Disagree: Twinkie
  197. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    Yamgban class in Joseon Korea was hereditary period. There was nothing defacto about it.
     
    The other commenter is correct and you are incorrect. Technically the Joseon civil service examinations were open to all, but the untouchables. Yangban status was legally not hereditary and was gained by passing the exams and becoming civil servants. That meant that if your children or grandchildren failed to acquire the status through the examination, they could lose the status. In reality, those in power made the cost of studying for and passing the exams so high that only extremely few people hailing from non-Yangban parents could afford it. And this tendency was particularly pronounced in rural areas where the gentry dominated the governance and excluded outsiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangban

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    Don’t trust everything Wikipedia says. A lot of times their information is wrong. Let me ask you this. Are you of Korean descent ? Do you speak Korean? were you born and raised in Korea?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo

    잘 모르시면 조용하고 가만히 계세요. 내 조상도 오래된 양반이었어요. Ganz gut?

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

  198. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    Don't trust everything Wikipedia says. A lot of times their information is wrong. Let me ask you this. Are you of Korean descent ? Do you speak Korean? were you born and raised in Korea?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    잘 모르시면 조용하고 가만히 계세요. 내 조상도 오래된 양반이었어요. Ganz gut?

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You said to me ::" stay quite if you don't know and my ancestors were yangban.". I don't like the way you said it. You don't know me. That's not the way to address to a stranger. You need to learn some manners. You are lucky because you are not in front of me.

    Right now I don't have a Korean keyboard but I say to you something very rude in Korean " ya yi ge sse kki ya, agali dak che !!

    I stand by what I said about yangban.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @tamo
    @Twinkie

    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  199. @tamo
    @Jack D

    China is not USSR that never had a vibrant private sector economy as China has and USSR kept it's currency ruble very overvalued against the U.S. dollar about 3.5 dollars to 1 ruble. That was a big joke.

    There was no way the Soviet Union could keep it's enormous military spending and at the same time it could spend a lot of funds for social welfare without a healthy thriving private sector economy. So collapse of the Soviet economy was a matter of when not if.

    On the other hand , according to the Big Mac Index by the Economist magazine, the Chinese yuan is undervalued more than 30% against the U.S. dollar. That is the only reason why American economy looks bigger than Chinese economy in NOMINAL EXCHANGE RATE terms,

    Also I might add IMF and World Bank have no problems trusting Chinese Data.

    You just compare the pictures of Shanghai or Shenzhen in 1980 and 2020, then you will see the phenomenal Chinese economic growth is no b.s.

    According to recent America's Pew Research Center and Kennedy School of Havard University surveys, more than 80 % o f Chinese trust their government.

    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it's primary concern is saving people's lives specially old people's not economic progress at the expense of people's lives.

    Just look at the U.S.. More than million Americans died because America gave up it's fight against covid very early so that still about 300 people, mostly old ones die everyday.

    China has started easing it's strict covid policy. Vast majority of the Chinese protesters are against strict covid policy not for the regime change that was called for by only few protesters

    Also there is no organized opposition to the CCP that has very highly organized internal security systems. So anybody who thinks there might be a regime change in China is a fool.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it’s primary concern is saving people’s lives specially old people’s not economic progress at the expense of people’s lives.

    If they care about people’s lives why do they weld their doors shut so they are unable to escape in a fire? CPC has royally screwed this up for the usual chauvinist reasons – they refused to buy foreign vaccines and the Chinese vaccine is fake like most Chinese products. They have lost the mandate of heaven. Now the are photoshopping masks onto the crowds at the World Cup because they don’t want the Chinese people to know that the epidemic is over outside of China.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    You are talking a lot of b,s, again. China has been doing an excellent job of curbing the spread of covid. Chinese vaccine might not be as effective as western mRNA vaccine. But far less people died in China than in America due to the strict enforcement of wearing masks and keep social distancing and lock-downs ( these things are as important as vaccine in curbing the spread of covid)

    Bottom line is that America may have better vaccines but it did a lousy job of making people wear masks and keep social distancing, enforcing lock-downs so that over 1 million Americans died needlessly and still over 300 Americans are dying everyday from covid.

    The difference in covid policies in China and America is that good old America thinks saving economy is more important than saving American lives, But to Chinese government, saving Chinese lives is much more important than saving it's economy. There is nothing more humane than that.

    Eventually China would be the only country that comes out of the covid pandemic with flying colors.. It's the American politicians who lost the mandate of heaven, specially Trump.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    They have lost the mandate of heaven.
     
    IMHO, that was a fig leaf so the ancien regime's retainers could shift their allegiance to the new men* controlling the pointy instruments that washed the imperial palace with royal blood. Mandate of heaven = fate. It's one thing to fight unwashed rebels. To fight fate itself is beyond the abilities of mere mortals.

    * Spartacus was reputed to be an aristocrat laid low. The founder of the Han dynasty (over a century before Spartacus's iconic flameout) was an illiterate peasant. To submit to scum like him would have seemed supremely craven. So they came up with the mandate of heaven. Can't fight fate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Gaozu_of_Han#Birth_and_early_life
  200. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    I meant specifically a type of institutional betrayal, of military men by civilian bureaucrats, or as collateral casualty of bureaucratic faction wars. (maybe like Rambo)

    Yue Fei was killed after a show trial by the Southern Song emperor abetted by scholar-officials who feared if Yue had won victory they'd have to contend with the rump northern government.

    Yuan Chonghuan was arrested and killed on false charges of treason probably planted by Manchus; details are complicated but he was also on the wrong side of a Ming bureaucratic faction war. Yu Qian I've told you about.

    The Japanese have plenty of internal fights, IJA vs. IJN, Kōdōha vs. Tōseiha. But their biggest institutional fail in WWII was the civilian bureaucracy* failing to restrain the military, in particular Kantō-gun, thus failing to coalesce on a unified strategy. Chiang Kai-shek knew this exactly and deemed them unlikely to prevail over Western Allies.

    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack. The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him. (Although Hitler granted them comfortable estates)

    Replies: @Twinkie

    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack.

    The Nazi bureaucracy did not have a “tight control over the Wehrmacht” – that was a major reason why the Waffen-SS was enlarged into a conventional military force from what was once merely a bodyguard for Hitler.

    The saying in Germany was, die Luftwaffe was enthusiastically Nazi, das Heer was Republican, and die Kriegsmarine was monarchist (funny thing about German: air force and navy are feminine nouns, but army is a neutral noun, just as a dog – das Hund – is neutral, but a cat – die Katze – is feminine). Admiral Canaris, who served as the head of Abwehr, the German military intelligence, and who engaged in intrigue to oppose Hitler and the Nazis, was emblematic of the sentiment among the naval officers.

    The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him.

    They weren’t demoted (e.g. von Manstein remained a Generalfeldmarschall) and they weren’t sidelined “for fear that they would overshadow” Hitler.

    First of all, all of them eventually encountered failures in operational command. Second, they often clashed with Hitler on the issue of strategy and operational art – both Guderian and von Manstein wanted to cease large scale attacks on the Eastern Front by 1943 and instead husband resources carefully (esp. mechanized elements) and engage in a series of “elastic” or mobile defense or baited counterattacks to bleed the Soviet Army, the model being the Second Battle of Kharkov, in which more than 250,000 Soviets were killed or captured at a loss of only 20,000 Germans.

    There was never an “overshadowing” of Der Führer by these men. Even when sidelined from operational command, they continued to fulfill some functional roles, Guderian, for example, serving as the Inspector General of Armored Troops and later even Acting Chief of Army General Staff (in which capacity he fervently pushed for the Nazification of the army officer corps).

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    I should have wrote: there were mostly no open acts of insubordination of the German military until the end of war. Yes, Das Boot portrayed the Dönitz's U-boat fleet as cynical towards Nazi ideologues.

    Hitler's rant in the Der Untergang was: jeder hat mich belogen sogar die SS! "Everyone has lied to me even the SS". Because by that point the Heer had revolted on July 20th 1944; Göring telegrammed AH to request command which was interpreted as perfidy; SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner disobeyed order to counterattack 1st Belorussian Front. Hence AH named Dönitz, representing the only service that hadn't openly disobeyed him as his successor.

    *There's a scene in Speer und Er where Dönitz is shown blaming Speer for recommending him to AH hence resulting in him getting a ten-year sentence.

    On the other hand IJA insubordination of Daihon'ei 大本営, the counterpart to OKW/OKH was feature not a bug, the acts of gekokujō 下克上 included:

    1. Kantō-gun assassination of Zhang Zuolin, then euphemized as "Certain major incident in Manchuria" 満洲某重大事件

    2. Annexation of Manchuria "Mukden Incident" following observation that Soviet overwhelming defeat in 1929 of Zhang Xueliang's Northeast Army, then best equipped in China with a navy and air force.

    3. Yanagawa Heisuke's 10th Army march from Shanghai to Nanjing in pursuit of Chinese forces retreating in disarray, a flagrant act of insubordination.

    But it was too tempting, the Chinese under German advice had built multiple lines of defence for Nanjing but botched an orderly retreat.


    Manstein, Guderian, Hoth
     
    I should be more specific as each of these cases are different, but we are really digressing now LOL, I need a break please.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  201. @Twinkie
    @tamo

    잘 모르시면 조용하고 가만히 계세요. 내 조상도 오래된 양반이었어요. Ganz gut?

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    You said to me ::” stay quite if you don’t know and my ancestors were yangban.”. I don’t like the way you said it. You don’t know me. That’s not the way to address to a stranger. You need to learn some manners. You are lucky because you are not in front of me.

    Right now I don’t have a Korean keyboard but I say to you something very rude in Korean ” ya yi ge sse kki ya, agali dak che !!

    I stand by what I said about yangban.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo

    Your translation of a basic sentence is terrible (“quite”). Yes, I “spoke down” to you, because you are ill-informed and insist on being so like a petulant boy. Predictably you responded with swearing. And that’s about your “level.”


    You are lucky because you are not in front of me.
     
    Indeed I’m lucky that I don’t keep company with the likes of you. I’m a Judo and BJJ black belt and I wore a black beret if you know anything about ROKA. I’m also always armed. Direct your juvenile threats elsewhere.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth

  202. @Jack D
    @tamo


    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it’s primary concern is saving people’s lives specially old people’s not economic progress at the expense of people’s lives.
     
    If they care about people's lives why do they weld their doors shut so they are unable to escape in a fire? CPC has royally screwed this up for the usual chauvinist reasons - they refused to buy foreign vaccines and the Chinese vaccine is fake like most Chinese products. They have lost the mandate of heaven. Now the are photoshopping masks onto the crowds at the World Cup because they don't want the Chinese people to know that the epidemic is over outside of China.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    You are talking a lot of b,s, again. China has been doing an excellent job of curbing the spread of covid. Chinese vaccine might not be as effective as western mRNA vaccine. But far less people died in China than in America due to the strict enforcement of wearing masks and keep social distancing and lock-downs ( these things are as important as vaccine in curbing the spread of covid)

    Bottom line is that America may have better vaccines but it did a lousy job of making people wear masks and keep social distancing, enforcing lock-downs so that over 1 million Americans died needlessly and still over 300 Americans are dying everyday from covid.

    The difference in covid policies in China and America is that good old America thinks saving economy is more important than saving American lives, But to Chinese government, saving Chinese lives is much more important than saving it’s economy. There is nothing more humane than that.

    Eventually China would be the only country that comes out of the covid pandemic with flying colors.. It’s the American politicians who lost the mandate of heaven, specially Trump.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo

    You sound like the Rushists who see no wrong in Putin. The best you can say is that China's performance has been a mixed bag. Once you start saying that it's all peaches and cream you reveal yourself as a partisan and not a neutral observer.

    The CPC cares nothing about saving people's lives. The only thing they care about is power and clinging to it. Power is everything. Power is better than money. With Xi's power, all the money in China is his if he wants it.

    It doesn't matter if China's Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face. It's like Putin with his 3 day war. Everyone in Russia, including Putin, knows that the war has gone colossally wrong but there's no way to reverse course and remain in power so they press on and dig their hole deeper.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

  203. @Twinkie
    @tamo

    잘 모르시면 조용하고 가만히 계세요. 내 조상도 오래된 양반이었어요. Ganz gut?

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.
     
    Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means "Both (Two) Orders" - it referred to 文班 and 武班 - civil service and military officer class who passed 科擧, the civil or military service exam. Definitionally, it was not hereditary. However, as another commenter pointed out, those in power engaged in various machinations to ensure that, in practical terms, it became so - hence "de facto hereditary."

    Moreover, this meant that if your lineage failed to produce another descendant who passed the exam (sources vary on the number of generations), that descendant and his family were supposed to lose the status since they no longer belonged to either of the orders (office holders), the key operative term being "supposed." In reality, again, those in power engaged in various schemes to ensure that this didn't occur.

    "We" weren't "both half right and half wrong" - you just didn't understand the nuances behind the social phenomena that was Yangban in pre-modern Korea.

    I belong to one of the major lineages listed in the Wiki link about the Yangban. I have a 족보 of my lineage, which lists my ancestors and their offices (mostly military). My father was actually a second son, but his older brother didn't have any grandson, so it was entrusted to me to pass onto my oldest son as the primary male heir of the lineage. Eventually, down a few generations, I'd imagine it will belong to some white-ish young man with a bit of my genes as well as my surname.

    Replies: @tamo

  204. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You said to me ::" stay quite if you don't know and my ancestors were yangban.". I don't like the way you said it. You don't know me. That's not the way to address to a stranger. You need to learn some manners. You are lucky because you are not in front of me.

    Right now I don't have a Korean keyboard but I say to you something very rude in Korean " ya yi ge sse kki ya, agali dak che !!

    I stand by what I said about yangban.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Your translation of a basic sentence is terrible (“quite”). Yes, I “spoke down” to you, because you are ill-informed and insist on being so like a petulant boy. Predictably you responded with swearing. And that’s about your “level.”

    You are lucky because you are not in front of me.

    Indeed I’m lucky that I don’t keep company with the likes of you. I’m a Judo and BJJ black belt and I wore a black beret if you know anything about ROKA. I’m also always armed. Direct your juvenile threats elsewhere.

    • LOL: tamo, Truth
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    Tamo, don't sweat it. Twinkie speaks down to everyone. He is a naturally superior human and we are all his inferiors. He is smarter than you, stronger than you, better armed than you, and don' you forget it.

    Did I forget to mention his charming personality?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Truth
    @Twinkie


    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong.
     
    LOL, Twinkie, that's the second olive branch you've beaten someone with in 3 days!

    It's like you're a Greek housewife who caught her husband's mistress washing clothes at the river!
  205. Twinkle, nothing is wrong with my translation of your stupid Korean. Your Korean shows you don’t know how to show proper respect for your own ancestors.

    When you say your JOSANG meaning your ancestors in Korean. You just don’t say JOSANG but you should say JOSANG NIM. the word NIM is very important to show your proper respect for your own ancestors.

    Also your Korean sounds like coming from a pissed-off little woman or a little angry gay punk. lol !!!

    Jujitsu, Tae Keon Do, black belts mean nothing to me, little boy. Only insecure and sissy a–holes brag about their blackbelts to cover up for their lack of masculinity and real world fighting skills. I see you are a legend in your mind, lol !!!

    I’m s former paratrooper. I will eat you for breakfast. Also your pen name Twinkle sounds very gay to me.

    • LOL: Truth
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’m s former paratrooper.
     
    What was your unit?

    Replies: @tamo

    , @Twinkie
    @tamo


    Tae Keon Do
     
    First "Korean" I ever met who can't spell TKD properly - even in English.

    JOSANG NIM
     
    You couldn't even translate a basic sentence properly. I wrote: "If you don't know much (or well), please stay quiet and be still. My old-time ancestors were gentry" (they weren't "gentry" in the strictest English sense as they were 武班, but that status connotation will do in this case).

    My first recorded ancestors lived in the 7th century. Nobody uses a direct-address honorific regarding 1400-year-old persons in a colloquial conversation.

    I thought you were "born and raised" in Korea. You sound like you get your Korean knowledge from the internet.

    Replies: @tamo

  206. @Twinkie
    @tamo

    Your translation of a basic sentence is terrible (“quite”). Yes, I “spoke down” to you, because you are ill-informed and insist on being so like a petulant boy. Predictably you responded with swearing. And that’s about your “level.”


    You are lucky because you are not in front of me.
     
    Indeed I’m lucky that I don’t keep company with the likes of you. I’m a Judo and BJJ black belt and I wore a black beret if you know anything about ROKA. I’m also always armed. Direct your juvenile threats elsewhere.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth

    Tamo, don’t sweat it. Twinkie speaks down to everyone. He is a naturally superior human and we are all his inferiors. He is smarter than you, stronger than you, better armed than you, and don’ you forget it.

    Did I forget to mention his charming personality?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    He is smarter than you, stronger than you, better armed than you
     
    You left out that I’m also tall and handsome.
  207. @tamo
    @Jack D

    You are talking a lot of b,s, again. China has been doing an excellent job of curbing the spread of covid. Chinese vaccine might not be as effective as western mRNA vaccine. But far less people died in China than in America due to the strict enforcement of wearing masks and keep social distancing and lock-downs ( these things are as important as vaccine in curbing the spread of covid)

    Bottom line is that America may have better vaccines but it did a lousy job of making people wear masks and keep social distancing, enforcing lock-downs so that over 1 million Americans died needlessly and still over 300 Americans are dying everyday from covid.

    The difference in covid policies in China and America is that good old America thinks saving economy is more important than saving American lives, But to Chinese government, saving Chinese lives is much more important than saving it's economy. There is nothing more humane than that.

    Eventually China would be the only country that comes out of the covid pandemic with flying colors.. It's the American politicians who lost the mandate of heaven, specially Trump.

    Replies: @Jack D

    You sound like the Rushists who see no wrong in Putin. The best you can say is that China’s performance has been a mixed bag. Once you start saying that it’s all peaches and cream you reveal yourself as a partisan and not a neutral observer.

    The CPC cares nothing about saving people’s lives. The only thing they care about is power and clinging to it. Power is everything. Power is better than money. With Xi’s power, all the money in China is his if he wants it.

    It doesn’t matter if China’s Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face. It’s like Putin with his 3 day war. Everyone in Russia, including Putin, knows that the war has gone colossally wrong but there’s no way to reverse course and remain in power so they press on and dig their hole deeper.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    I truly believe CCP is doing a great job of combating covid crisis. No other country can do what China is doing. I'm really proud of Chinese as a fellow East Asian.

    CCP's main concern is saving old people's lives. In America, senior citizens make up about 90% of covid deaths. One of the most important reasons why Chinese government uses the draconian covid measures is it is afraid of it's medical facilities would be overwhelmed by covid patients if they are not careful about controlling the pandemic.

    Chinese government started relaxing it's strict covid measures even before the protests began. I'm very sure they will gradually and successfully exit from the pandemic.

    It really wants to save the people over 80 because they are the most venerable group.
    This shows CCP really cares about the wellbeing of Chinese citizens.
    Xi is not Putin. I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    It doesn’t matter if China’s Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face.
     
    I think you're assigning a level of thoughtfulness to Xi that is non-existent. Absolute rulers can insist on their way, regardless of what their subjects think. IIRC, you once brought up an ancient episode that is instructive:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao#Calling_a_deer_a_horse

    The point of this is to speak power to truth, to emphasize to the plebes that they will obey, or else ... Think of Xi Jinping as a farmer, China as his oversized ranch and the Chinese population as his livestock.

    Replies: @Jack D

  208. @Jack D
    @tamo

    You sound like the Rushists who see no wrong in Putin. The best you can say is that China's performance has been a mixed bag. Once you start saying that it's all peaches and cream you reveal yourself as a partisan and not a neutral observer.

    The CPC cares nothing about saving people's lives. The only thing they care about is power and clinging to it. Power is everything. Power is better than money. With Xi's power, all the money in China is his if he wants it.

    It doesn't matter if China's Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face. It's like Putin with his 3 day war. Everyone in Russia, including Putin, knows that the war has gone colossally wrong but there's no way to reverse course and remain in power so they press on and dig their hole deeper.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    I truly believe CCP is doing a great job of combating covid crisis. No other country can do what China is doing. I’m really proud of Chinese as a fellow East Asian.

    CCP’s main concern is saving old people’s lives. In America, senior citizens make up about 90% of covid deaths. One of the most important reasons why Chinese government uses the draconian covid measures is it is afraid of it’s medical facilities would be overwhelmed by covid patients if they are not careful about controlling the pandemic.

    Chinese government started relaxing it’s strict covid measures even before the protests began. I’m very sure they will gradually and successfully exit from the pandemic.

    It really wants to save the people over 80 because they are the most venerable group.
    This shows CCP really cares about the wellbeing of Chinese citizens.
    Xi is not Putin. I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo


    I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.
     
    Putin BTW is neither dumb nor irrational, but he is getting a lot of bad information. Which is not to say that "if only the Czar knew" then everything would be ok. The issue with autocracies is not whether the current Czar is a good Czar or a bad Czar (although there are in fact better and worse Czars) but the Czarist system itself, which lacks the self-correcting mechanisms of democracies and which has perverse incentives for people to hide the truth from the Czar.

    Xi is a strange case - he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was "sent to the countryside" and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.

    If the Chinese regime is concerned about saving lives, why is their biggest hero Mao, who killed 80 million people (maybe the #1 mass murderer in all of history)?

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

  209. @tamo
    @Jack D

    I truly believe CCP is doing a great job of combating covid crisis. No other country can do what China is doing. I'm really proud of Chinese as a fellow East Asian.

    CCP's main concern is saving old people's lives. In America, senior citizens make up about 90% of covid deaths. One of the most important reasons why Chinese government uses the draconian covid measures is it is afraid of it's medical facilities would be overwhelmed by covid patients if they are not careful about controlling the pandemic.

    Chinese government started relaxing it's strict covid measures even before the protests began. I'm very sure they will gradually and successfully exit from the pandemic.

    It really wants to save the people over 80 because they are the most venerable group.
    This shows CCP really cares about the wellbeing of Chinese citizens.
    Xi is not Putin. I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.

    Putin BTW is neither dumb nor irrational, but he is getting a lot of bad information. Which is not to say that “if only the Czar knew” then everything would be ok. The issue with autocracies is not whether the current Czar is a good Czar or a bad Czar (although there are in fact better and worse Czars) but the Czarist system itself, which lacks the self-correcting mechanisms of democracies and which has perverse incentives for people to hide the truth from the Czar.

    Xi is a strange case – he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was “sent to the countryside” and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.

    If the Chinese regime is concerned about saving lives, why is their biggest hero Mao, who killed 80 million people (maybe the #1 mass murderer in all of history)?

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    I didn't say Putin is dumb or irrational. I said Xi is more rational and smarter than Putin. There is a big difference between these two sentences. Russia is a his-been. It will never recover from this Ukrainian misadventure

    I know Xi was exiled to the countryside and lived in the cave after his father was purged by Mao.

    Mao made such policy mistakes as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. We just don't know how many Chinese died. There is a big difference between Mao and Hitler and Stalin. Mao did not kill people intentionally but they died because of Mao's bad policies. On the other hand, Hitler and Stalin killed millions of people intentionally. They are the true murdering S.O.B.s.

    Once Deng Xiao Ping said Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong. In spite of his gross policy mistakes such as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, Mao is revered by Chinese because he finally founded a strong unified country after 100 years of national humiliation.

    I think Xi became a very compassionate and caring person because he spent his childhood in abject poverty.

    Now let me ask you this. How many native Americans got killed by various American regimes in the 18th and 19th centuries? Also how many innocent civilians got killed in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan by American bombings?

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    Xi is a strange case – he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was “sent to the countryside” and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.
     
    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name. Xi's claim to authority comes from the fact that his dad was a regime aristocrat - Mao's personal confidant. Leninism's key tenet is democratic centralism - the divine right of kings in an egalitarian age. The aristocrats jostle for power, but one man gets to be king. To go against "communism" would be to reject his birthright. Without his aristocratic bloodline, what exactly is Xi's claim to power? His mail order diploma from Tsinghua University, obtained via connections rather than actual academic work? Xi is a butt-kissing schemer who bided his time and leveraged his family ties, not some brilliant Horatio Alger in yellowface.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/25/china-xi-jinping-party-congress/

    Replies: @Twinkie

  210. @Jack D
    @tamo


    I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.
     
    Putin BTW is neither dumb nor irrational, but he is getting a lot of bad information. Which is not to say that "if only the Czar knew" then everything would be ok. The issue with autocracies is not whether the current Czar is a good Czar or a bad Czar (although there are in fact better and worse Czars) but the Czarist system itself, which lacks the self-correcting mechanisms of democracies and which has perverse incentives for people to hide the truth from the Czar.

    Xi is a strange case - he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was "sent to the countryside" and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.

    If the Chinese regime is concerned about saving lives, why is their biggest hero Mao, who killed 80 million people (maybe the #1 mass murderer in all of history)?

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    I didn’t say Putin is dumb or irrational. I said Xi is more rational and smarter than Putin. There is a big difference between these two sentences. Russia is a his-been. It will never recover from this Ukrainian misadventure

    I know Xi was exiled to the countryside and lived in the cave after his father was purged by Mao.

    Mao made such policy mistakes as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. We just don’t know how many Chinese died. There is a big difference between Mao and Hitler and Stalin. Mao did not kill people intentionally but they died because of Mao’s bad policies. On the other hand, Hitler and Stalin killed millions of people intentionally. They are the true murdering S.O.B.s.

    Once Deng Xiao Ping said Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong. In spite of his gross policy mistakes such as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, Mao is revered by Chinese because he finally founded a strong unified country after 100 years of national humiliation.

    I think Xi became a very compassionate and caring person because he spent his childhood in abject poverty.

    Now let me ask you this. How many native Americans got killed by various American regimes in the 18th and 19th centuries? Also how many innocent civilians got killed in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan by American bombings?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo

    Just the usual butwhataboutism that Communists have been playing since Stalin's time - but you are lynching Negroes! Two Wongs don't make a Wright.

    Replies: @tamo

  211. @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    * On the other hand the Nazi bureaucracy set up Waffen SS that answered directly to it. And had tight control over the Wehrmacht at least until the Stauffenberg attack.
     
    The Nazi bureaucracy did not have a "tight control over the Wehrmacht" - that was a major reason why the Waffen-SS was enlarged into a conventional military force from what was once merely a bodyguard for Hitler.

    The saying in Germany was, die Luftwaffe was enthusiastically Nazi, das Heer was Republican, and die Kriegsmarine was monarchist (funny thing about German: air force and navy are feminine nouns, but army is a neutral noun, just as a dog - das Hund - is neutral, but a cat - die Katze - is feminine). Admiral Canaris, who served as the head of Abwehr, the German military intelligence, and who engaged in intrigue to oppose Hitler and the Nazis, was emblematic of the sentiment among the naval officers.

    The most capable generals Manstein, Guderian, Hoth got demoted by the Failed Artist for fear that they would overshadow him.
     
    They weren't demoted (e.g. von Manstein remained a Generalfeldmarschall) and they weren't sidelined "for fear that they would overshadow" Hitler.

    First of all, all of them eventually encountered failures in operational command. Second, they often clashed with Hitler on the issue of strategy and operational art - both Guderian and von Manstein wanted to cease large scale attacks on the Eastern Front by 1943 and instead husband resources carefully (esp. mechanized elements) and engage in a series of "elastic" or mobile defense or baited counterattacks to bleed the Soviet Army, the model being the Second Battle of Kharkov, in which more than 250,000 Soviets were killed or captured at a loss of only 20,000 Germans.

    There was never an "overshadowing" of Der Führer by these men. Even when sidelined from operational command, they continued to fulfill some functional roles, Guderian, for example, serving as the Inspector General of Armored Troops and later even Acting Chief of Army General Staff (in which capacity he fervently pushed for the Nazification of the army officer corps).

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I should have wrote: there were mostly no open acts of insubordination of the German military until the end of war. Yes, Das Boot portrayed the Dönitz’s U-boat fleet as cynical towards Nazi ideologues.

    Hitler’s rant in the Der Untergang was: jeder hat mich belogen sogar die SS! “Everyone has lied to me even the SS”. Because by that point the Heer had revolted on July 20th 1944; Göring telegrammed AH to request command which was interpreted as perfidy; SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner disobeyed order to counterattack 1st Belorussian Front. Hence AH named Dönitz, representing the only service that hadn’t openly disobeyed him as his successor.

    *There’s a scene in Speer und Er where Dönitz is shown blaming Speer for recommending him to AH hence resulting in him getting a ten-year sentence.

    On the other hand IJA insubordination of Daihon’ei 大本営, the counterpart to OKW/OKH was feature not a bug, the acts of gekokujō 下克上 included:

    1. Kantō-gun assassination of Zhang Zuolin, then euphemized as “Certain major incident in Manchuria” 満洲某重大事件

    2. Annexation of Manchuria “Mukden Incident” following observation that Soviet overwhelming defeat in 1929 of Zhang Xueliang’s Northeast Army, then best equipped in China with a navy and air force.

    3. Yanagawa Heisuke’s 10th Army march from Shanghai to Nanjing in pursuit of Chinese forces retreating in disarray, a flagrant act of insubordination.

    But it was too tempting, the Chinese under German advice had built multiple lines of defence for Nanjing but botched an orderly retreat.

    Manstein, Guderian, Hoth

    I should be more specific as each of these cases are different, but we are really digressing now LOL, I need a break please.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Don't get your ideas about the German WWII civil-military relations from movies.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  212. @Twinkie
    @tamo

    Your translation of a basic sentence is terrible (“quite”). Yes, I “spoke down” to you, because you are ill-informed and insist on being so like a petulant boy. Predictably you responded with swearing. And that’s about your “level.”


    You are lucky because you are not in front of me.
     
    Indeed I’m lucky that I don’t keep company with the likes of you. I’m a Judo and BJJ black belt and I wore a black beret if you know anything about ROKA. I’m also always armed. Direct your juvenile threats elsewhere.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth

    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong.

    LOL, Twinkie, that’s the second olive branch you’ve beaten someone with in 3 days!

    It’s like you’re a Greek housewife who caught her husband’s mistress washing clothes at the river!

    • LOL: tamo
  213. @tamo
    Twinkle, nothing is wrong with my translation of your stupid Korean. Your Korean shows you don't know how to show proper respect for your own ancestors.

    When you say your JOSANG meaning your ancestors in Korean. You just don't say JOSANG but you should say JOSANG NIM. the word NIM is very important to show your proper respect for your own ancestors.

    Also your Korean sounds like coming from a pissed-off little woman or a little angry gay punk. lol !!!

    Jujitsu, Tae Keon Do, black belts mean nothing to me, little boy. Only insecure and sissy a--holes brag about their blackbelts to cover up for their lack of masculinity and real world fighting skills. I see you are a legend in your mind, lol !!!

    I'm s former paratrooper. I will eat you for breakfast. Also your pen name Twinkle sounds very gay to me.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    I’m s former paratrooper.

    What was your unit?

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I'll tell you mine.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  214. @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    Tamo, don't sweat it. Twinkie speaks down to everyone. He is a naturally superior human and we are all his inferiors. He is smarter than you, stronger than you, better armed than you, and don' you forget it.

    Did I forget to mention his charming personality?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    He is smarter than you, stronger than you, better armed than you

    You left out that I’m also tall and handsome.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  215. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’m s former paratrooper.
     
    What was your unit?

    Replies: @tamo

    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I’ll tell you mine.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I’ll tell you mine.
     
    I already told you and you didn't even get it. I'm in my 50's. Who do you think wore black berets 30+ years ago in ROKA?

    I will eat you for breakfast.
     
    Okay, tough guy. Tell me what you would do - step by step - if I were in front of you. Explain to me how you would "eat me for breakfast."

    I'm guessing you are one of these "I just black out and bodies fall" type of buffoons. Fighting is both art and science - there are many technical components to it that have to be sharpened by constant training. Tell me, specifically, what you would do - I'll know in an instant whether you are just a poser or someone who has real training and experience in unarmed combat.

    Replies: @tamo

  216. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I'll tell you mine.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I’ll tell you mine.

    I already told you and you didn’t even get it. I’m in my 50’s. Who do you think wore black berets 30+ years ago in ROKA?

    I will eat you for breakfast.

    Okay, tough guy. Tell me what you would do – step by step – if I were in front of you. Explain to me how you would “eat me for breakfast.”

    I’m guessing you are one of these “I just black out and bodies fall” type of buffoons. Fighting is both art and science – there are many technical components to it that have to be sharpened by constant training. Tell me, specifically, what you would do – I’ll know in an instant whether you are just a poser or someone who has real training and experience in unarmed combat.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    Black berets are for the ROK Special Operations Forces, Then tell me at what altitude you make a static line tactical jump?

    What kind of aircraft do you use for the jump, C-130 ? C-- 141? Give me the unit of your Special Operations Forces unit: Hey boy, I just wore a black beret will not do.

    You are supposed to be a martial arts specialist. Show me your stuff, you big mouth doo she. I think you are a cowardly draft dodger, lol !!!

  217. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    I should have wrote: there were mostly no open acts of insubordination of the German military until the end of war. Yes, Das Boot portrayed the Dönitz's U-boat fleet as cynical towards Nazi ideologues.

    Hitler's rant in the Der Untergang was: jeder hat mich belogen sogar die SS! "Everyone has lied to me even the SS". Because by that point the Heer had revolted on July 20th 1944; Göring telegrammed AH to request command which was interpreted as perfidy; SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner disobeyed order to counterattack 1st Belorussian Front. Hence AH named Dönitz, representing the only service that hadn't openly disobeyed him as his successor.

    *There's a scene in Speer und Er where Dönitz is shown blaming Speer for recommending him to AH hence resulting in him getting a ten-year sentence.

    On the other hand IJA insubordination of Daihon'ei 大本営, the counterpart to OKW/OKH was feature not a bug, the acts of gekokujō 下克上 included:

    1. Kantō-gun assassination of Zhang Zuolin, then euphemized as "Certain major incident in Manchuria" 満洲某重大事件

    2. Annexation of Manchuria "Mukden Incident" following observation that Soviet overwhelming defeat in 1929 of Zhang Xueliang's Northeast Army, then best equipped in China with a navy and air force.

    3. Yanagawa Heisuke's 10th Army march from Shanghai to Nanjing in pursuit of Chinese forces retreating in disarray, a flagrant act of insubordination.

    But it was too tempting, the Chinese under German advice had built multiple lines of defence for Nanjing but botched an orderly retreat.


    Manstein, Guderian, Hoth
     
    I should be more specific as each of these cases are different, but we are really digressing now LOL, I need a break please.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Don’t get your ideas about the German WWII civil-military relations from movies.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    Durch Kriegsfilme habe ich Deutsch gelernt. I can talk with you all day long about German grammar. In Nietzsche’s Zur Genealogie der Moral, there was "Die Eroberer- und Herren Rasse", which is usually translated to “the conquering master race“.

    But he gave the compound noun hyphen for "Eroberer-" but not "Herren". Herren can be interpreted as the genitive case, and translates to the somewhat softer sounding “the conqueror-race of masters (lords)“. As in Der du Herr aller Herren bist, “You who are the Lord of all Lords“ in Luther’s hymn “Keep us, Lord, faithful to your word”

    I mentioned Speer because Inside the Third Reich is a main reference for NS bureaucracy. Gitta Sereny later call out a lot it as bullshit. But given what's printed here on TUR who knows what's bullshit.

    I'm going by memory so some details may be off.

    - Manstein wanted consolidate front command between AG North Centre South. That triggered AH who didn't want a single general with so much power. AH replaced him with Model who was 1) no Junker, 2) was against elastic defence.

    - Guderian was ousted for going against AH's "stand-fast" order at the Soviet counter-attack at Battle of Moscow, and never again took a field command. AH may have been correct at the tactical level. And there was a lot going on in Japan at that time.

    - Hoth and Guderian led two of the three Panzer Corps that broke through at the Ardennes and raced to the English Channel at Westfeldzug.
    https://i.postimg.cc/J73tcfHC/Guderia-Hoth-Reinhardt.jpg
    Hoth and Manstein at Operation Winter Storm suggested Paulus should breakout and attempt to rendezvous with them. Manstein being politically astute didn't put this suggestion in writing. Paulus declined to breakout; the 6th Army remained encircled and later destroyed. Hoth's role was later diminished.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  218. @tamo
    Twinkle, nothing is wrong with my translation of your stupid Korean. Your Korean shows you don't know how to show proper respect for your own ancestors.

    When you say your JOSANG meaning your ancestors in Korean. You just don't say JOSANG but you should say JOSANG NIM. the word NIM is very important to show your proper respect for your own ancestors.

    Also your Korean sounds like coming from a pissed-off little woman or a little angry gay punk. lol !!!

    Jujitsu, Tae Keon Do, black belts mean nothing to me, little boy. Only insecure and sissy a--holes brag about their blackbelts to cover up for their lack of masculinity and real world fighting skills. I see you are a legend in your mind, lol !!!

    I'm s former paratrooper. I will eat you for breakfast. Also your pen name Twinkle sounds very gay to me.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    Tae Keon Do

    First “Korean” I ever met who can’t spell TKD properly – even in English.

    JOSANG NIM

    You couldn’t even translate a basic sentence properly. I wrote: “If you don’t know much (or well), please stay quiet and be still. My old-time ancestors were gentry” (they weren’t “gentry” in the strictest English sense as they were 武班, but that status connotation will do in this case).

    My first recorded ancestors lived in the 7th century. Nobody uses a direct-address honorific regarding 1400-year-old persons in a colloquial conversation.

    I thought you were “born and raised” in Korea. You sound like you get your Korean knowledge from the internet.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You can spell tae kwen do or tae kon do or something like that, little boy, like spelling Lee or Li.or even Yi like Yi dynasty or Moon or Mu.

    武班( Chinese characters) means warrior class pronounced as MU BAN in Korean. It's after MUN BAN meaning scholar class. So it's second class yangban after MUN BAN . Yangban means literally 2 classes meaning MUN BAN (scholar class) and MU BAN(warrior class).

    You can not even read SIMPLE written Chinese characters or meaning of them which is a must for reading things in Korean It means you may not even speak or read Korean. What an ignorant fake !!!

  219. @tamo
    @Jack D

    I didn't say Putin is dumb or irrational. I said Xi is more rational and smarter than Putin. There is a big difference between these two sentences. Russia is a his-been. It will never recover from this Ukrainian misadventure

    I know Xi was exiled to the countryside and lived in the cave after his father was purged by Mao.

    Mao made such policy mistakes as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. We just don't know how many Chinese died. There is a big difference between Mao and Hitler and Stalin. Mao did not kill people intentionally but they died because of Mao's bad policies. On the other hand, Hitler and Stalin killed millions of people intentionally. They are the true murdering S.O.B.s.

    Once Deng Xiao Ping said Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong. In spite of his gross policy mistakes such as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, Mao is revered by Chinese because he finally founded a strong unified country after 100 years of national humiliation.

    I think Xi became a very compassionate and caring person because he spent his childhood in abject poverty.

    Now let me ask you this. How many native Americans got killed by various American regimes in the 18th and 19th centuries? Also how many innocent civilians got killed in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan by American bombings?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Just the usual butwhataboutism that Communists have been playing since Stalin’s time – but you are lynching Negroes! Two Wongs don’t make a Wright.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    Whataboutism is good to put down hypocrites. You got it all wrong. Two Wrights make only half a Wong.

    Replies: @Jack D

  220. @Jack D
    @tamo


    I think Xi is more rational and . smarter than Putin.
     
    Putin BTW is neither dumb nor irrational, but he is getting a lot of bad information. Which is not to say that "if only the Czar knew" then everything would be ok. The issue with autocracies is not whether the current Czar is a good Czar or a bad Czar (although there are in fact better and worse Czars) but the Czarist system itself, which lacks the self-correcting mechanisms of democracies and which has perverse incentives for people to hide the truth from the Czar.

    Xi is a strange case - he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was "sent to the countryside" and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.

    If the Chinese regime is concerned about saving lives, why is their biggest hero Mao, who killed 80 million people (maybe the #1 mass murderer in all of history)?

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    Xi is a strange case – he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was “sent to the countryside” and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.

    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name. Xi’s claim to authority comes from the fact that his dad was a regime aristocrat – Mao’s personal confidant. Leninism’s key tenet is democratic centralism – the divine right of kings in an egalitarian age. The aristocrats jostle for power, but one man gets to be king. To go against “communism” would be to reject his birthright. Without his aristocratic bloodline, what exactly is Xi’s claim to power? His mail order diploma from Tsinghua University, obtained via connections rather than actual academic work? Xi is a butt-kissing schemer who bided his time and leveraged his family ties, not some brilliant Horatio Alger in yellowface.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/25/china-xi-jinping-party-congress/

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name.
     
    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling - not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  221. @Jack D
    @tamo


    Chinese government has the right covid policy because it’s primary concern is saving people’s lives specially old people’s not economic progress at the expense of people’s lives.
     
    If they care about people's lives why do they weld their doors shut so they are unable to escape in a fire? CPC has royally screwed this up for the usual chauvinist reasons - they refused to buy foreign vaccines and the Chinese vaccine is fake like most Chinese products. They have lost the mandate of heaven. Now the are photoshopping masks onto the crowds at the World Cup because they don't want the Chinese people to know that the epidemic is over outside of China.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    They have lost the mandate of heaven.

    IMHO, that was a fig leaf so the ancien regime’s retainers could shift their allegiance to the new men* controlling the pointy instruments that washed the imperial palace with royal blood. Mandate of heaven = fate. It’s one thing to fight unwashed rebels. To fight fate itself is beyond the abilities of mere mortals.

    * Spartacus was reputed to be an aristocrat laid low. The founder of the Han dynasty (over a century before Spartacus’s iconic flameout) was an illiterate peasant. To submit to scum like him would have seemed supremely craven. So they came up with the mandate of heaven. Can’t fight fate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Gaozu_of_Han#Birth_and_early_life

  222. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    You tell me your ROK Army unit first , then I’ll tell you mine.
     
    I already told you and you didn't even get it. I'm in my 50's. Who do you think wore black berets 30+ years ago in ROKA?

    I will eat you for breakfast.
     
    Okay, tough guy. Tell me what you would do - step by step - if I were in front of you. Explain to me how you would "eat me for breakfast."

    I'm guessing you are one of these "I just black out and bodies fall" type of buffoons. Fighting is both art and science - there are many technical components to it that have to be sharpened by constant training. Tell me, specifically, what you would do - I'll know in an instant whether you are just a poser or someone who has real training and experience in unarmed combat.

    Replies: @tamo

    Black berets are for the ROK Special Operations Forces, Then tell me at what altitude you make a static line tactical jump?

    What kind of aircraft do you use for the jump, C-130 ? C– 141? Give me the unit of your Special Operations Forces unit: Hey boy, I just wore a black beret will not do.

    You are supposed to be a martial arts specialist. Show me your stuff, you big mouth doo she. I think you are a cowardly draft dodger, lol !!!

  223. @Jack D
    @tamo

    You sound like the Rushists who see no wrong in Putin. The best you can say is that China's performance has been a mixed bag. Once you start saying that it's all peaches and cream you reveal yourself as a partisan and not a neutral observer.

    The CPC cares nothing about saving people's lives. The only thing they care about is power and clinging to it. Power is everything. Power is better than money. With Xi's power, all the money in China is his if he wants it.

    It doesn't matter if China's Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face. It's like Putin with his 3 day war. Everyone in Russia, including Putin, knows that the war has gone colossally wrong but there's no way to reverse course and remain in power so they press on and dig their hole deeper.

    Replies: @tamo, @Johann Ricke

    It doesn’t matter if China’s Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face.

    I think you’re assigning a level of thoughtfulness to Xi that is non-existent. Absolute rulers can insist on their way, regardless of what their subjects think. IIRC, you once brought up an ancient episode that is instructive:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao#Calling_a_deer_a_horse

    The point of this is to speak power to truth, to emphasize to the plebes that they will obey, or else … Think of Xi Jinping as a farmer, China as his oversized ranch and the Chinese population as his livestock.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Johann Ricke

    Xi cares about (manipulating) public opinion or else China wouldn't spend vast resources on the Great Firewall, propaganda, etc. Sure the Chinese people are his cattle but you want to do everything you can to keep your cattle calm and prevent stampedes.

    The implicit bargain the Chinese cattle had with their rancher was that he had to be a reasonably competent ranch manager and keep them fed and watered and then they wouldn't moo too much. Sure Xi will bring out the security police and the army and shoot as many people as necessary if things get out of hand but he would rather not have to. Cattle are valuable and it's a shame to have to shoot them.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  224. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    Tae Keon Do
     
    First "Korean" I ever met who can't spell TKD properly - even in English.

    JOSANG NIM
     
    You couldn't even translate a basic sentence properly. I wrote: "If you don't know much (or well), please stay quiet and be still. My old-time ancestors were gentry" (they weren't "gentry" in the strictest English sense as they were 武班, but that status connotation will do in this case).

    My first recorded ancestors lived in the 7th century. Nobody uses a direct-address honorific regarding 1400-year-old persons in a colloquial conversation.

    I thought you were "born and raised" in Korea. You sound like you get your Korean knowledge from the internet.

    Replies: @tamo

    You can spell tae kwen do or tae kon do or something like that, little boy, like spelling Lee or Li.or even Yi like Yi dynasty or Moon or Mu.

    武班( Chinese characters) means warrior class pronounced as MU BAN in Korean. It’s after MUN BAN meaning scholar class. So it’s second class yangban after MUN BAN . Yangban means literally 2 classes meaning MUN BAN (scholar class) and MU BAN(warrior class).

    You can not even read SIMPLE written Chinese characters or meaning of them which is a must for reading things in Korean It means you may not even speak or read Korean. What an ignorant fake !!!

  225. @Jack D
    @tamo

    Just the usual butwhataboutism that Communists have been playing since Stalin's time - but you are lynching Negroes! Two Wongs don't make a Wright.

    Replies: @tamo

    Whataboutism is good to put down hypocrites. You got it all wrong. Two Wrights make only half a Wong.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @tamo

    Whataboutism is based on 8 year old level morality - " But Johnny's mom lets him play with firecrackers" (meanwhile Bobby is holding a stick of dynamite that he wants to put in his teacher's lunchbox - it's not even comparable to begin with). Why is it that only dictators do Whataboutism? Why don't you ever hear the rulers of France say , "But China tortures dissidents so it must be OK?"

    Replies: @tamo

  226. @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    Xi is a strange case – he and his family suffered personally from the excesses of Communism (his father was purged and he was “sent to the countryside” and had to literally live in a cave) but instead of rejecting it, he is like the abused child who abuses his own children.
     
    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name. Xi's claim to authority comes from the fact that his dad was a regime aristocrat - Mao's personal confidant. Leninism's key tenet is democratic centralism - the divine right of kings in an egalitarian age. The aristocrats jostle for power, but one man gets to be king. To go against "communism" would be to reject his birthright. Without his aristocratic bloodline, what exactly is Xi's claim to power? His mail order diploma from Tsinghua University, obtained via connections rather than actual academic work? Xi is a butt-kissing schemer who bided his time and leveraged his family ties, not some brilliant Horatio Alger in yellowface.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/25/china-xi-jinping-party-congress/

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name.

    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling – not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling – not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.
     
    I'd disagree that it was like Japan's LDP. Probably closer to the Roman consuls, with the same tendency towards one-man rule that this kind of untrammeled power, even if theoretically divided, that this entails. And the Chairman was also head of the Central Military Commission. Whereas each Roman consul had his own army, so balanced each other off. Oligarchies without armies at each oligarch's beck and call tend to revert towards monarchy very quickly. That's especially so when only one man has the army at his beck and call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Central_Military_Commission_(China)#List_of_chairmen

    Replies: @Twinkie

  227. @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    Communism (aka Marxism-Leninism) is basically monarchy by another name.
     
    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling - not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling – not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.

    I’d disagree that it was like Japan’s LDP. Probably closer to the Roman consuls, with the same tendency towards one-man rule that this kind of untrammeled power, even if theoretically divided, that this entails. And the Chairman was also head of the Central Military Commission. Whereas each Roman consul had his own army, so balanced each other off. Oligarchies without armies at each oligarch’s beck and call tend to revert towards monarchy very quickly. That’s especially so when only one man has the army at his beck and call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Central_Military_Commission_(China)#List_of_chairmen

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    I’d disagree that it was like Japan’s LDP.
     
    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not "like Japan's LDP" exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.

    Likewise, the CCP, until the recent unprecedented move by Xi, operated on balancing of power between inner factions and grandees took turns (sort of) to rule. Hu Jintao, for example - Xi's predecessor who was just humiliated - gave up his posts (including the chairmanship of the Central Military Commission) and retired from being the national leader.

    I bet he's regretting that now.

    By the way, I'm sure you know, but for the sake of other readers here - Jiang Zemin, Hu's predecessor - just died. It's like Xi's cleaning up house! ;)

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  228. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.

    Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means “Both (Two) Orders” – it referred to 文班 and 武班 – civil service and military officer class who passed 科擧, the civil or military service exam. Definitionally, it was not hereditary. However, as another commenter pointed out, those in power engaged in various machinations to ensure that, in practical terms, it became so – hence “de facto hereditary.”

    Moreover, this meant that if your lineage failed to produce another descendant who passed the exam (sources vary on the number of generations), that descendant and his family were supposed to lose the status since they no longer belonged to either of the orders (office holders), the key operative term being “supposed.” In reality, again, those in power engaged in various schemes to ensure that this didn’t occur.

    “We” weren’t “both half right and half wrong” – you just didn’t understand the nuances behind the social phenomena that was Yangban in pre-modern Korea.

    I belong to one of the major lineages listed in the Wiki link about the Yangban. I have a 족보 of my lineage, which lists my ancestors and their offices (mostly military). My father was actually a second son, but his older brother didn’t have any grandson, so it was entrusted to me to pass onto my oldest son as the primary male heir of the lineage. Eventually, down a few generations, I’d imagine it will belong to some white-ish young man with a bit of my genes as well as my surname.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You said "Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means “Both (Two) Orders” – it referred to 文班 and 武班 – civil service and military officer class"

    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.

    I can see you copied from Wikipedia. But Wiki is wrong. Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it's pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam. That applies to your descendants. So yangban status always remain in your family regardless of passing civil service exam.

    You said " I have a 족보 of my lineage," That's no big deal. Many Korean families have 족보{ it's pronounced as JOK BO).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

  229. @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Don't get your ideas about the German WWII civil-military relations from movies.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Durch Kriegsfilme habe ich Deutsch gelernt. I can talk with you all day long about German grammar. In Nietzsche’s Zur Genealogie der Moral, there was “Die Eroberer- und Herren Rasse“, which is usually translated to “the conquering master race“.

    But he gave the compound noun hyphen for “Eroberer-” but not “Herren“. Herren can be interpreted as the genitive case, and translates to the somewhat softer sounding “the conqueror-race of masters (lords)“. As in Der du Herr aller Herren bist, “You who are the Lord of all Lords“ in Luther’s hymn “Keep us, Lord, faithful to your word”

    I mentioned Speer because Inside the Third Reich is a main reference for NS bureaucracy. Gitta Sereny later call out a lot it as bullshit. But given what’s printed here on TUR who knows what’s bullshit.

    I’m going by memory so some details may be off.

    – Manstein wanted consolidate front command between AG North Centre South. That triggered AH who didn’t want a single general with so much power. AH replaced him with Model who was 1) no Junker, 2) was against elastic defence.

    – Guderian was ousted for going against AH’s “stand-fast” order at the Soviet counter-attack at Battle of Moscow, and never again took a field command. AH may have been correct at the tactical level. And there was a lot going on in Japan at that time.

    – Hoth and Guderian led two of the three Panzer Corps that broke through at the Ardennes and raced to the English Channel at Westfeldzug.

    Hoth and Manstein at Operation Winter Storm suggested Paulus should breakout and attempt to rendezvous with them. Manstein being politically astute didn’t put this suggestion in writing. Paulus declined to breakout; the 6th Army remained encircled and later destroyed. Hoth’s role was later diminished.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    That’s all good and dandy, but again, you shouldn’t rely on films for real history (in this case WWII German civil-military relations), as good of a film Der Untergang was (far better than any Hollywood product).


    I mentioned Speer because Inside the Third Reich is a main reference for NS bureaucracy. Gitta Sereny later call out a lot it as bullshit.
     
    Yup. Similarly, Guderian and von Manstein cooperated with BH Liddell Hart to rehabilitate themselves (and, in the process, prop up Liddell Hart’s damaged reputation) in the post-war period, the prime example being The German Generals Talk as well as Panzer Leader and Lost Victories. To his eternal credit, John J. Mearsheimer evicerated Liddell Hart’s self-serving retconning via Liddell Hart and the Weight of History, as Omer Barton also did with the “untainted shield of the regular German army” mythology in The Eastern Front, 1941–1945: German Troops and the Barbarization of Warfare.
  230. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    After my further discussions with some Koreans; I have come to the conclusion that we both are half right and half wrong. Yangban was hereditary. Even if you and your children or grand children failed civil service exams , they were still yangbans
    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.
     
    Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means "Both (Two) Orders" - it referred to 文班 and 武班 - civil service and military officer class who passed 科擧, the civil or military service exam. Definitionally, it was not hereditary. However, as another commenter pointed out, those in power engaged in various machinations to ensure that, in practical terms, it became so - hence "de facto hereditary."

    Moreover, this meant that if your lineage failed to produce another descendant who passed the exam (sources vary on the number of generations), that descendant and his family were supposed to lose the status since they no longer belonged to either of the orders (office holders), the key operative term being "supposed." In reality, again, those in power engaged in various schemes to ensure that this didn't occur.

    "We" weren't "both half right and half wrong" - you just didn't understand the nuances behind the social phenomena that was Yangban in pre-modern Korea.

    I belong to one of the major lineages listed in the Wiki link about the Yangban. I have a 족보 of my lineage, which lists my ancestors and their offices (mostly military). My father was actually a second son, but his older brother didn't have any grandson, so it was entrusted to me to pass onto my oldest son as the primary male heir of the lineage. Eventually, down a few generations, I'd imagine it will belong to some white-ish young man with a bit of my genes as well as my surname.

    Replies: @tamo

    You said “Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means “Both (Two) Orders” – it referred to 文班 and 武班 – civil service and military officer class”

    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.

    I can see you copied from Wikipedia. But Wiki is wrong. Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it’s pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam. That applies to your descendants. So yangban status always remain in your family regardless of passing civil service exam.

    You said ” I have a 족보 of my lineage,” That’s no big deal. Many Korean families have 족보{ it’s pronounced as JOK BO).

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.
     
    I have an auto-approval privilege here; you don't. Your post 224 was not approved and visible before I wrote my comment above.

    You can spell tae kwen do or tae kon do or something like that, little boy, like spelling Lee or Li.or even Yi like Yi dynasty or Moon or Mu.
     
    I'm in my 50's. Cut the "little boy" crap.

    태권도 is always spelled "Tae Kwon Do" in English. I've never known anyone - even in Korea - to spell it otherwise. And if you really grew up in South Korea, you'd know, because TKD is taught in and out of school extensively all over the country (I have a black belt in both the ITF-style and WTF/Kukkiwon-style TKD as well, but that's not saying much since it's so widely practiced there). That word in particular you transliterated incorrectly -권 (Kwon) - means "fist," which is why boxing is translated as 권투 (拳鬪) or "Kwon Tu" (or "fist-fighting") in Korean.


    Then tell me at what altitude you make a static line tactical jump?
     
    It's been more than 30 years since I did my basic airborne qualification. I never had the pleasure of jumping out of a perfectly working fixed-wing aircraft under combat conditions (that's what helos are for), but all my training drops with static line were done at around 300 meters above ground level, give or take, depending on the weight of the kit I carried (higher, up to about 380 meters when carrying heavier equipment; as low as 180 meters when carrying nothing and no reserve either) as well as weather conditions and the number of other men being dropped. At that low end, you were pretty much screwed if anything went wrong, and people did die in training, but ROKA of that time period was pretty risk-prone. But the real fun was doing high altitude free-falls with steerables. Do you know what preps you have to do for those?

    I'm old enough to have done drops without an anti-inversion net (the US military had it much earlier on, but the ROKA still had old stockpiles well into the late '80s - then again, we are talking about a force that still had M1 Carbines for reserve troops decades after the Korean War).


    You are supposed to be a martial arts specialist. Show me your stuff, you big mouth doo she. I think you are a cowardly draft dodger, lol !!!
     
    I note that you keep demanding answers, but have not provided your own answer to one question I asked. So, I ask again, how are you going to "eat me for breakfast?" Tell me your approach - step-by-step - to unarmed combat. You wrote that I was "lucky" I wasn't in front you. Okay, imagine I am standing in front you. What are you going to do?

    If you don't answer, I'll assume you know nothing and are blustering. Better yet, I'll tell you how I approach it and you (and other readers) can learn something instead of sounding like a jilted teenage girl.

    Replies: @tamo

    , @Twinkie
    @tamo


    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.
     

    Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it’s pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam.
     
    These two statements of yours are mutually exclusive.

    You seem to have a basic English comprehension problem as well as that in Korean. Yangban literally means the Two Orders - those who passed examinations in either civil service or military officer service. De jure anyone not untouchable who passed and acquired a post became Yangban (which was, of course, fiercely competitive). But, in reality, this rarely occurred, because those in power made sure passing such an exam was enormously expensive, hence being Yangban became de facto hereditary.

    I just can't use any smaller words to explain this to you.

  231. @tamo
    @Jack D

    Whataboutism is good to put down hypocrites. You got it all wrong. Two Wrights make only half a Wong.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Whataboutism is based on 8 year old level morality – ” But Johnny’s mom lets him play with firecrackers” (meanwhile Bobby is holding a stick of dynamite that he wants to put in his teacher’s lunchbox – it’s not even comparable to begin with). Why is it that only dictators do Whataboutism? Why don’t you ever hear the rulers of France say , “But China tortures dissidents so it must be OK?”

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Jack D

    Whataboutism is used when it's ok if we bomb hell out of other countries on some dubious grounds but it's not ok if other countries do the same.

  232. @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    It doesn’t matter if China’s Covid policy is good or bad. The CPC must be seen as infallible so that once they have started down a road they cannot turn back without humiliating loss of face.
     
    I think you're assigning a level of thoughtfulness to Xi that is non-existent. Absolute rulers can insist on their way, regardless of what their subjects think. IIRC, you once brought up an ancient episode that is instructive:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao#Calling_a_deer_a_horse

    The point of this is to speak power to truth, to emphasize to the plebes that they will obey, or else ... Think of Xi Jinping as a farmer, China as his oversized ranch and the Chinese population as his livestock.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Xi cares about (manipulating) public opinion or else China wouldn’t spend vast resources on the Great Firewall, propaganda, etc. Sure the Chinese people are his cattle but you want to do everything you can to keep your cattle calm and prevent stampedes.

    The implicit bargain the Chinese cattle had with their rancher was that he had to be a reasonably competent ranch manager and keep them fed and watered and then they wouldn’t moo too much. Sure Xi will bring out the security police and the army and shoot as many people as necessary if things get out of hand but he would rather not have to. Cattle are valuable and it’s a shame to have to shoot them.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Jack D

    I agree with the general thrust of your argument here. Neither Russia nor China is a totalitarian communist dictatorship of yore. They are authoritarian countries, in which the ruling regimes do care considerably about the public opinion - they can and will utilize force to suppress internal dissent, but they'd rather not have to do so.

    That said, cattle is not the right analogy here (cattle are bred to be slaughtered), sheep is. The Roman emperor Tiberius is said to have commanded his governors that "a good shepherd shears the sheep, he does not skin it."

    Replies: @Jack D

  233. @Jack D
    @tamo

    Whataboutism is based on 8 year old level morality - " But Johnny's mom lets him play with firecrackers" (meanwhile Bobby is holding a stick of dynamite that he wants to put in his teacher's lunchbox - it's not even comparable to begin with). Why is it that only dictators do Whataboutism? Why don't you ever hear the rulers of France say , "But China tortures dissidents so it must be OK?"

    Replies: @tamo

    Whataboutism is used when it’s ok if we bomb hell out of other countries on some dubious grounds but it’s not ok if other countries do the same.

  234. 科擧 kējǔ is in hanzi “imperial examination” or literal “subject recommendation”, introduced in Sui-Tang.

    Before that from Han til Sui the old Chinese nobility was 士族 or 世族 shìzú, rather like Yangban but instead of an exam, a recommendation system for the bureaucracy,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-rank_system

    The expression was 上品无寒门,下品无世族 “Higher ranks are without commoners, lower ranks are without shizu”.

    One of the key events at the end of Han– Battle of Guandu in the Three Kingdoms period. Yuan Shao represented the old shizu, Cao Cao represented a newer meritocratic elite. Cao prevailed and usurped the throne from the last Han emperor. Introducing a brief period of Cao Wei meritocracy.

    But as karma goes, Cao’s descendants got usurped by the Sima clan who founded Jin dynasty. Sima is a very old aristocratic clan that dates back to before Qin Unification, when the aristocracy was fully hereditary very much like the European and Japanese ones.

    Sima ([sɹ̩́mà], simplified Chinese: 司马; traditional Chinese: 司馬; pinyin: Sīmǎ; Wade–Giles: Ssu-ma) is a Chinese family name. It is one of the rare two-character Chinese family names; most Chinese family names consist of only a single character. It is an occupational surname, literally meaning “control” (sī) “horses” (mǎ); in a similar way as the English surname Marshall is derived from the Frankish: “mare” (horse) + “skalkoz” (master). The family name originated from one of the offices of the Three Excellencies of the Zhou dynasty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_(Chinese_surname)

    Under Jin shizu ruled until Sui-Tang, and faded away by Song when the elites became fully meritocratic.

  235. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You said "Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means “Both (Two) Orders” – it referred to 文班 and 武班 – civil service and military officer class"

    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.

    I can see you copied from Wikipedia. But Wiki is wrong. Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it's pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam. That applies to your descendants. So yangban status always remain in your family regardless of passing civil service exam.

    You said " I have a 족보 of my lineage," That's no big deal. Many Korean families have 족보{ it's pronounced as JOK BO).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.

    I have an auto-approval privilege here; you don’t. Your post 224 was not approved and visible before I wrote my comment above.

    You can spell tae kwen do or tae kon do or something like that, little boy, like spelling Lee or Li.or even Yi like Yi dynasty or Moon or Mu.

    I’m in my 50’s. Cut the “little boy” crap.

    태권도 is always spelled “Tae Kwon Do” in English. I’ve never known anyone – even in Korea – to spell it otherwise. And if you really grew up in South Korea, you’d know, because TKD is taught in and out of school extensively all over the country (I have a black belt in both the ITF-style and WTF/Kukkiwon-style TKD as well, but that’s not saying much since it’s so widely practiced there). That word in particular you transliterated incorrectly -권 (Kwon) – means “fist,” which is why boxing is translated as 권투 (拳鬪) or “Kwon Tu” (or “fist-fighting”) in Korean.

    Then tell me at what altitude you make a static line tactical jump?

    It’s been more than 30 years since I did my basic airborne qualification. I never had the pleasure of jumping out of a perfectly working fixed-wing aircraft under combat conditions (that’s what helos are for), but all my training drops with static line were done at around 300 meters above ground level, give or take, depending on the weight of the kit I carried (higher, up to about 380 meters when carrying heavier equipment; as low as 180 meters when carrying nothing and no reserve either) as well as weather conditions and the number of other men being dropped. At that low end, you were pretty much screwed if anything went wrong, and people did die in training, but ROKA of that time period was pretty risk-prone. But the real fun was doing high altitude free-falls with steerables. Do you know what preps you have to do for those?

    I’m old enough to have done drops without an anti-inversion net (the US military had it much earlier on, but the ROKA still had old stockpiles well into the late ’80s – then again, we are talking about a force that still had M1 Carbines for reserve troops decades after the Korean War).

    You are supposed to be a martial arts specialist. Show me your stuff, you big mouth doo she. I think you are a cowardly draft dodger, lol !!!

    I note that you keep demanding answers, but have not provided your own answer to one question I asked. So, I ask again, how are you going to “eat me for breakfast?” Tell me your approach – step-by-step – to unarmed combat. You wrote that I was “lucky” I wasn’t in front you. Okay, imagine I am standing in front you. What are you going to do?

    If you don’t answer, I’ll assume you know nothing and are blustering. Better yet, I’ll tell you how I approach it and you (and other readers) can learn something instead of sounding like a jilted teenage girl.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • LOL: tamo
    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    I'm a lot older than you. I was born in Korea. When I was a young kid, after you finish the elementary school , we had to take the middle school ( jung hak gyo) entrance exam and then 3 years later the high school ( go doong hak gyo) entrance exam and then finally the biggie, the college entrance exam.

    I left Korea after finishing my junior year at high school and finished high school and college in the States. But I still read Korean newspapers.

    When I was a child in Korea there was no Tae Kon Do. We had DANG SU DO and GONG SU DO. Frankly I don't know the relationship between Tae Kon Do and Dang Su do. Gong Su Do. Korean schools didn't teach Tae Kon Do at the time.

    I went to jump school(airborne school) at Ft Benning Georgia. Believe me at that time the jump school was extremely tough While I was there I only got 3-4 hours of sleep per day except sundays . But now I hear it's not as tough as it used to be. After the jump school. Then I was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division and I made jumps from C-119, C-130, C-141 and Chinooks.

    The 82nd Airborne is a great outfit which pride itself in very tough through training with strict discipline to go wit, probably the best CONNENTIONAL paratroop outfit in the world.

    How do I defend my self ? I don't mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I'll blow him away but I make sure it's done in a self defense way.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  236. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You said "Do you understand what the term Yangban actually means? 兩班 means “Both (Two) Orders” – it referred to 文班 and 武班 – civil service and military officer class"

    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.

    I can see you copied from Wikipedia. But Wiki is wrong. Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it's pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam. That applies to your descendants. So yangban status always remain in your family regardless of passing civil service exam.

    You said " I have a 족보 of my lineage," That's no big deal. Many Korean families have 족보{ it's pronounced as JOK BO).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Twinkie

    But civil service exams were not just restricted to yangbans but were open to almost everybody.

    Yangban was hereditary. You kept the yangban status regardless you passed 科擧( it’s pronounced as GUA GE) .the civil service exam.

    These two statements of yours are mutually exclusive.

    You seem to have a basic English comprehension problem as well as that in Korean. Yangban literally means the Two Orders – those who passed examinations in either civil service or military officer service. De jure anyone not untouchable who passed and acquired a post became Yangban (which was, of course, fiercely competitive). But, in reality, this rarely occurred, because those in power made sure passing such an exam was enormously expensive, hence being Yangban became de facto hereditary.

    I just can’t use any smaller words to explain this to you.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • LOL: tamo
  237. @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Before Xi’s consolidation of power, the CCP was more an oligarchy than a monarchy. Different factions within the inner party jockeyed for power and often took turns ruling – not unlike the long decades of the LDP dominance in Japan.
     
    I'd disagree that it was like Japan's LDP. Probably closer to the Roman consuls, with the same tendency towards one-man rule that this kind of untrammeled power, even if theoretically divided, that this entails. And the Chairman was also head of the Central Military Commission. Whereas each Roman consul had his own army, so balanced each other off. Oligarchies without armies at each oligarch's beck and call tend to revert towards monarchy very quickly. That's especially so when only one man has the army at his beck and call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Central_Military_Commission_(China)#List_of_chairmen

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I’d disagree that it was like Japan’s LDP.

    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not “like Japan’s LDP” exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.

    Likewise, the CCP, until the recent unprecedented move by Xi, operated on balancing of power between inner factions and grandees took turns (sort of) to rule. Hu Jintao, for example – Xi’s predecessor who was just humiliated – gave up his posts (including the chairmanship of the Central Military Commission) and retired from being the national leader.

    I bet he’s regretting that now.

    By the way, I’m sure you know, but for the sake of other readers here – Jiang Zemin, Hu’s predecessor – just died. It’s like Xi’s cleaning up house! 😉

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not “like Japan’s LDP” exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.
     
    My point is basically that when the army is an institution personally answerable to you, with no checks on your power, the oligarchical aspects are purely notional, and dictatorship is simply a matter of the one man with real power exercising the prerogatives he was handed. The problem is that the PLA answers to the Party, not the people of China. As head of that Party, Xi Jinping, like his predecessors, can have someone killed on his say-so. No LDP leader has been able to do this.

    IIRC, Roman consuls were granted 1 year non-consecutive terms, and there were always at least 2. Each consul had his own army. Consuls also had the power of life and death in their domains. But the short terms and the non-consecutive nature of their tenures helped alleviate the danger of them assuming kingly powers for life. The idea being that a commander who leads an armed force for long enough can make himself king. And that's exactly what Xi Jinping has done in his 10 years as China's ruler.

    Deng Xiaoping wanted oligarchical rule by Party grandees. He needed to divide up power as in Republican Rome to ensure his reforms stood the test of time. But that risked having rival armed factions within the Party going head-to-head, as in all other regimes going back to the Roman Republic, even in the Chinese empire itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_of_the_Seven_States#Prelude

    So he kept power in a single pair of hands to avert the possibility of civil strife, and ended up with the same system of one-man rule that he had inherited.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  238. @Jack D
    @Johann Ricke

    Xi cares about (manipulating) public opinion or else China wouldn't spend vast resources on the Great Firewall, propaganda, etc. Sure the Chinese people are his cattle but you want to do everything you can to keep your cattle calm and prevent stampedes.

    The implicit bargain the Chinese cattle had with their rancher was that he had to be a reasonably competent ranch manager and keep them fed and watered and then they wouldn't moo too much. Sure Xi will bring out the security police and the army and shoot as many people as necessary if things get out of hand but he would rather not have to. Cattle are valuable and it's a shame to have to shoot them.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I agree with the general thrust of your argument here. Neither Russia nor China is a totalitarian communist dictatorship of yore. They are authoritarian countries, in which the ruling regimes do care considerably about the public opinion – they can and will utilize force to suppress internal dissent, but they’d rather not have to do so.

    That said, cattle is not the right analogy here (cattle are bred to be slaughtered), sheep is. The Roman emperor Tiberius is said to have commanded his governors that “a good shepherd shears the sheep, he does not skin it.”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    OK, DAIRY cattle.

  239. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    What the hell are you talking about? I had already said that in my post 224 about 3 HOURS BEFORE YOUR POST.
     
    I have an auto-approval privilege here; you don't. Your post 224 was not approved and visible before I wrote my comment above.

    You can spell tae kwen do or tae kon do or something like that, little boy, like spelling Lee or Li.or even Yi like Yi dynasty or Moon or Mu.
     
    I'm in my 50's. Cut the "little boy" crap.

    태권도 is always spelled "Tae Kwon Do" in English. I've never known anyone - even in Korea - to spell it otherwise. And if you really grew up in South Korea, you'd know, because TKD is taught in and out of school extensively all over the country (I have a black belt in both the ITF-style and WTF/Kukkiwon-style TKD as well, but that's not saying much since it's so widely practiced there). That word in particular you transliterated incorrectly -권 (Kwon) - means "fist," which is why boxing is translated as 권투 (拳鬪) or "Kwon Tu" (or "fist-fighting") in Korean.


    Then tell me at what altitude you make a static line tactical jump?
     
    It's been more than 30 years since I did my basic airborne qualification. I never had the pleasure of jumping out of a perfectly working fixed-wing aircraft under combat conditions (that's what helos are for), but all my training drops with static line were done at around 300 meters above ground level, give or take, depending on the weight of the kit I carried (higher, up to about 380 meters when carrying heavier equipment; as low as 180 meters when carrying nothing and no reserve either) as well as weather conditions and the number of other men being dropped. At that low end, you were pretty much screwed if anything went wrong, and people did die in training, but ROKA of that time period was pretty risk-prone. But the real fun was doing high altitude free-falls with steerables. Do you know what preps you have to do for those?

    I'm old enough to have done drops without an anti-inversion net (the US military had it much earlier on, but the ROKA still had old stockpiles well into the late '80s - then again, we are talking about a force that still had M1 Carbines for reserve troops decades after the Korean War).


    You are supposed to be a martial arts specialist. Show me your stuff, you big mouth doo she. I think you are a cowardly draft dodger, lol !!!
     
    I note that you keep demanding answers, but have not provided your own answer to one question I asked. So, I ask again, how are you going to "eat me for breakfast?" Tell me your approach - step-by-step - to unarmed combat. You wrote that I was "lucky" I wasn't in front you. Okay, imagine I am standing in front you. What are you going to do?

    If you don't answer, I'll assume you know nothing and are blustering. Better yet, I'll tell you how I approach it and you (and other readers) can learn something instead of sounding like a jilted teenage girl.

    Replies: @tamo

    I’m a lot older than you. I was born in Korea. When I was a young kid, after you finish the elementary school , we had to take the middle school ( jung hak gyo) entrance exam and then 3 years later the high school ( go doong hak gyo) entrance exam and then finally the biggie, the college entrance exam.

    I left Korea after finishing my junior year at high school and finished high school and college in the States. But I still read Korean newspapers.

    When I was a child in Korea there was no Tae Kon Do. We had DANG SU DO and GONG SU DO. Frankly I don’t know the relationship between Tae Kon Do and Dang Su do. Gong Su Do. Korean schools didn’t teach Tae Kon Do at the time.

    I went to jump school(airborne school) at Ft Benning Georgia. Believe me at that time the jump school was extremely tough While I was there I only got 3-4 hours of sleep per day except sundays . But now I hear it’s not as tough as it used to be. After the jump school. Then I was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division and I made jumps from C-119, C-130, C-141 and Chinooks.

    The 82nd Airborne is a great outfit which pride itself in very tough through training with strict discipline to go wit, probably the best CONNENTIONAL paratroop outfit in the world.

    How do I defend my self ? I don’t mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I’ll blow him away but I make sure it’s done in a self defense way.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’m a lot older than you.
     
    What's "a lot"?

    How do I defend my self ? I don’t mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I’ll blow him away but I make sure it’s done in a self defense way.
     
    You are not answering my question. You wrote that I was lucky I wasn't standing in front you and that you'd eat me for breakfast. You implied that you'd start a fight with me. As I expected, you just deflected and dodged. You don't have the training or experience for unarmed combat. And your answer of "just shooting" someone is a stupid one that'll get you locked away for a very long time unless your lawyers can convince a grand jury, the prosecutor or the jury that a "reasonable" person would fear death or grave bodily harm in your situation.

    Before you even begin unarmed combat - we'll assume for the moment as a defender - you have to assess your potential opponent's posture and readiness. He'll give off some physical signs, e.g. his eyes will "pop out" (it's just the tension + pupils dilating), his body will tense and become stiff (sometimes even shaky - he's getting an adrenaline dump), and he will often blade his body to his non-dominant side (if he is a righty, he'll present his left side to you and almost "hide" the right arm away from you, because he's about to take a big overhand swing).

    The next thing you have to assess quickly is distance, because distance management determines the context of the all-important first collision of bodies. Even though I am competent in striking, I don't like to take chances exchanging strikes (because I don't want to eat an errant lucky punch in the pocket), so I will either "go all the way in or all the way out." If I were armed (which I am 99% of the time), I'll move away laterally from the axis of the attack and also create distance, so I can draw unimpeded. This is also crucial if the attacker is armed.

    In a completely unarmed vs. unarmed scenario, the next thing to assess is the opponent's stance. Is he right-handed or a southpaw? Is he standing upright or crouching? 80+% of the people you encounter will favor the right and the vast majority of people will stand upright with their chins up, head tilted away. Most likely they'll throw a winging right overhand as the opening move. My go-to in this situation is to Tai-Sabaki (pivot) to the right - away from the power side of that overhand - with my left hand in high guard to protect my head , clinch and get a right underhook.

    Once I have a right underhook, I typically go for O Goshi (hip lock in wrestling) or Tai Otoshi (body drop) if he hips away from my hip. Once I throw the opponent over, I try to get control of the "head and arm" (Kesa-Gatame) and I drop some punches to the exposed face - fight's over at this point. In many of the fights I had, I never had to throw a single punch, because the fight was over the moment my opponent was thrown overhead and landed on his back.

    If the throw doesn't land flush and he falls sideways or turtles (another common untrained reaction), I usually take the back mount with hooks in, flatten the opponent out with my hips, and then I throw a few elbows to the back of the neck and the fight's over (if I want to be "nice," I'll rear-strangle him from here instead of pounding away at his neck/spine with my elbow).

    This is just one, if very common, scenario. If I see someone crouching, I'd assume he's done some wrestling or BJJ and deal with the situation accordingly (once in a blue moon, I've had guys shoot a power double on me in fights) - usually I use whizzer kick (Uchimata with an overhook) and faceplant him.

    So, no, you are not going to eat me for breakfast unless you are much more skilled than I am (high unlikely given your complete non-answer and likely ignorance about fighting), much faster, stronger, and have quicker reaction time (also highly unlikely given your supposed age) or you catch me by surprise (good luck with that if you "flex" ahead in real life the way you do with words).

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

  240. @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    I’d disagree that it was like Japan’s LDP.
     
    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not "like Japan's LDP" exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.

    Likewise, the CCP, until the recent unprecedented move by Xi, operated on balancing of power between inner factions and grandees took turns (sort of) to rule. Hu Jintao, for example - Xi's predecessor who was just humiliated - gave up his posts (including the chairmanship of the Central Military Commission) and retired from being the national leader.

    I bet he's regretting that now.

    By the way, I'm sure you know, but for the sake of other readers here - Jiang Zemin, Hu's predecessor - just died. It's like Xi's cleaning up house! ;)

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not “like Japan’s LDP” exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.

    My point is basically that when the army is an institution personally answerable to you, with no checks on your power, the oligarchical aspects are purely notional, and dictatorship is simply a matter of the one man with real power exercising the prerogatives he was handed. The problem is that the PLA answers to the Party, not the people of China. As head of that Party, Xi Jinping, like his predecessors, can have someone killed on his say-so. No LDP leader has been able to do this.

    IIRC, Roman consuls were granted 1 year non-consecutive terms, and there were always at least 2. Each consul had his own army. Consuls also had the power of life and death in their domains. But the short terms and the non-consecutive nature of their tenures helped alleviate the danger of them assuming kingly powers for life. The idea being that a commander who leads an armed force for long enough can make himself king. And that’s exactly what Xi Jinping has done in his 10 years as China’s ruler.

    Deng Xiaoping wanted oligarchical rule by Party grandees. He needed to divide up power as in Republican Rome to ensure his reforms stood the test of time. But that risked having rival armed factions within the Party going head-to-head, as in all other regimes going back to the Roman Republic, even in the Chinese empire itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_of_the_Seven_States#Prelude

    So he kept power in a single pair of hands to avert the possibility of civil strife, and ended up with the same system of one-man rule that he had inherited.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    As head of that Party, Xi Jinping, like his predecessors, can have someone killed on his say-so. No LDP leader has been able to do this.
     
    Fair point, but an LDP leader is not completely powerless against a troublesome domestic problem. There is always civilized ways to make that person's life miserable (the Singaporean government is also a master at this). Then, if push were come to shove, there is always a helpful Yakuza connection who can either embarrass or physically threaten (or even hurt in rare cases).
  241. @Jack D
    @tamo

    Touchy, aren't we?

    I think the difference is that Americans have a tradition of taking voluntary initiative, if necessary in spite of the government. Japanese children are taught that the stalk of rice that sticks its head up above the rest gets chopped off.

    Also that the bureaucratic mentality in Japan extends not only to government but also to private industry. The issues that my daughter's group was having were more with TEPCO (the private electric utility) than with the Japanese government. Of course, private corporations in America can also exhibit bureaucratic, ass covering behavior as well. A very large electric utility or corporation often behaves similarly whether it is government or shareholder owned. But again culture plays a role. Every culture has strengths and weaknesses and these tend to especially come out in times of stress.

    The Japanese model has its ups and downs. OTOH, they were able to take a medieval society and bring it into the modern era in a few short decades. OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries. On the third hand, after a rapid industrialization, they led themselves into military disaster, On the 4th had, they were able to come back from this and prosper. On the 5th hand, the model only worked so far and then they fell into stagnation. The same qualities that lead them to great success also lead them to great failure.

    I suppose you could say the same about America but our strengths and weaknesses, and therefore the nature of our successes and failures, are different.

    Replies: @tamo, @Corvinus

    “OTOH, it was their own fault that they had locked themselves off from the world for centuries“

    Wait, I thought we should applaud them for being a homogenous culture, one that didn’t succumb to the Jewish multicultural death trap.

    Now you’re essentially saying it was foolish to have made the decision to remain isolated?

    Get your talking points straight from your Talmudic overlords next time.

  242. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    Durch Kriegsfilme habe ich Deutsch gelernt. I can talk with you all day long about German grammar. In Nietzsche’s Zur Genealogie der Moral, there was "Die Eroberer- und Herren Rasse", which is usually translated to “the conquering master race“.

    But he gave the compound noun hyphen for "Eroberer-" but not "Herren". Herren can be interpreted as the genitive case, and translates to the somewhat softer sounding “the conqueror-race of masters (lords)“. As in Der du Herr aller Herren bist, “You who are the Lord of all Lords“ in Luther’s hymn “Keep us, Lord, faithful to your word”

    I mentioned Speer because Inside the Third Reich is a main reference for NS bureaucracy. Gitta Sereny later call out a lot it as bullshit. But given what's printed here on TUR who knows what's bullshit.

    I'm going by memory so some details may be off.

    - Manstein wanted consolidate front command between AG North Centre South. That triggered AH who didn't want a single general with so much power. AH replaced him with Model who was 1) no Junker, 2) was against elastic defence.

    - Guderian was ousted for going against AH's "stand-fast" order at the Soviet counter-attack at Battle of Moscow, and never again took a field command. AH may have been correct at the tactical level. And there was a lot going on in Japan at that time.

    - Hoth and Guderian led two of the three Panzer Corps that broke through at the Ardennes and raced to the English Channel at Westfeldzug.
    https://i.postimg.cc/J73tcfHC/Guderia-Hoth-Reinhardt.jpg
    Hoth and Manstein at Operation Winter Storm suggested Paulus should breakout and attempt to rendezvous with them. Manstein being politically astute didn't put this suggestion in writing. Paulus declined to breakout; the 6th Army remained encircled and later destroyed. Hoth's role was later diminished.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    That’s all good and dandy, but again, you shouldn’t rely on films for real history (in this case WWII German civil-military relations), as good of a film Der Untergang was (far better than any Hollywood product).

    I mentioned Speer because Inside the Third Reich is a main reference for NS bureaucracy. Gitta Sereny later call out a lot it as bullshit.

    Yup. Similarly, Guderian and von Manstein cooperated with BH Liddell Hart to rehabilitate themselves (and, in the process, prop up Liddell Hart’s damaged reputation) in the post-war period, the prime example being The German Generals Talk as well as Panzer Leader and Lost Victories. To his eternal credit, John J. Mearsheimer evicerated Liddell Hart’s self-serving retconning via Liddell Hart and the Weight of History, as Omer Barton also did with the “untainted shield of the regular German army” mythology in The Eastern Front, 1941–1945: German Troops and the Barbarization of Warfare.

  243. @tamo
    @Twinkie

    I'm a lot older than you. I was born in Korea. When I was a young kid, after you finish the elementary school , we had to take the middle school ( jung hak gyo) entrance exam and then 3 years later the high school ( go doong hak gyo) entrance exam and then finally the biggie, the college entrance exam.

    I left Korea after finishing my junior year at high school and finished high school and college in the States. But I still read Korean newspapers.

    When I was a child in Korea there was no Tae Kon Do. We had DANG SU DO and GONG SU DO. Frankly I don't know the relationship between Tae Kon Do and Dang Su do. Gong Su Do. Korean schools didn't teach Tae Kon Do at the time.

    I went to jump school(airborne school) at Ft Benning Georgia. Believe me at that time the jump school was extremely tough While I was there I only got 3-4 hours of sleep per day except sundays . But now I hear it's not as tough as it used to be. After the jump school. Then I was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division and I made jumps from C-119, C-130, C-141 and Chinooks.

    The 82nd Airborne is a great outfit which pride itself in very tough through training with strict discipline to go wit, probably the best CONNENTIONAL paratroop outfit in the world.

    How do I defend my self ? I don't mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I'll blow him away but I make sure it's done in a self defense way.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I’m a lot older than you.

    What’s “a lot”?

    How do I defend my self ? I don’t mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I’ll blow him away but I make sure it’s done in a self defense way.

    You are not answering my question. You wrote that I was lucky I wasn’t standing in front you and that you’d eat me for breakfast. You implied that you’d start a fight with me. As I expected, you just deflected and dodged. You don’t have the training or experience for unarmed combat. And your answer of “just shooting” someone is a stupid one that’ll get you locked away for a very long time unless your lawyers can convince a grand jury, the prosecutor or the jury that a “reasonable” person would fear death or grave bodily harm in your situation.

    Before you even begin unarmed combat – we’ll assume for the moment as a defender – you have to assess your potential opponent’s posture and readiness. He’ll give off some physical signs, e.g. his eyes will “pop out” (it’s just the tension + pupils dilating), his body will tense and become stiff (sometimes even shaky – he’s getting an adrenaline dump), and he will often blade his body to his non-dominant side (if he is a righty, he’ll present his left side to you and almost “hide” the right arm away from you, because he’s about to take a big overhand swing).

    The next thing you have to assess quickly is distance, because distance management determines the context of the all-important first collision of bodies. Even though I am competent in striking, I don’t like to take chances exchanging strikes (because I don’t want to eat an errant lucky punch in the pocket), so I will either “go all the way in or all the way out.” If I were armed (which I am 99% of the time), I’ll move away laterally from the axis of the attack and also create distance, so I can draw unimpeded. This is also crucial if the attacker is armed.

    In a completely unarmed vs. unarmed scenario, the next thing to assess is the opponent’s stance. Is he right-handed or a southpaw? Is he standing upright or crouching? 80+% of the people you encounter will favor the right and the vast majority of people will stand upright with their chins up, head tilted away. Most likely they’ll throw a winging right overhand as the opening move. My go-to in this situation is to Tai-Sabaki (pivot) to the right – away from the power side of that overhand – with my left hand in high guard to protect my head , clinch and get a right underhook.

    Once I have a right underhook, I typically go for O Goshi (hip lock in wrestling) or Tai Otoshi (body drop) if he hips away from my hip. Once I throw the opponent over, I try to get control of the “head and arm” (Kesa-Gatame) and I drop some punches to the exposed face – fight’s over at this point. In many of the fights I had, I never had to throw a single punch, because the fight was over the moment my opponent was thrown overhead and landed on his back.

    If the throw doesn’t land flush and he falls sideways or turtles (another common untrained reaction), I usually take the back mount with hooks in, flatten the opponent out with my hips, and then I throw a few elbows to the back of the neck and the fight’s over (if I want to be “nice,” I’ll rear-strangle him from here instead of pounding away at his neck/spine with my elbow).

    This is just one, if very common, scenario. If I see someone crouching, I’d assume he’s done some wrestling or BJJ and deal with the situation accordingly (once in a blue moon, I’ve had guys shoot a power double on me in fights) – usually I use whizzer kick (Uchimata with an overhook) and faceplant him.

    So, no, you are not going to eat me for breakfast unless you are much more skilled than I am (high unlikely given your complete non-answer and likely ignorance about fighting), much faster, stronger, and have quicker reaction time (also highly unlikely given your supposed age) or you catch me by surprise (good luck with that if you “flex” ahead in real life the way you do with words).

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • LOL: tamo
    • Replies: @tamo
    @Twinkie

    Hey junior, I'll be 80 years old in a few years. I'm not interested in your B.S. about unarmed fighting. I'm too old for that.

    I'll challenge you to a western style gun fight. We face each other and at the count of 10, we shoot at each other and I'll blow you away. On the other hand, you might kill me. That's alright with me too.
    At this stage of my life, I don't give a damn about a lot of things.

    , @tamo
    @Twinkie

    In case you don't accept my gunfight challenge, then I'll just walk away. Consider yourself lucky because I didn't eat you for breakfast.

  244. @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Japan has been a democracy for a long time, so, of course, the CCP is not “like Japan’s LDP” exactly. But for many decades, the LDP in Japan had a virtual monopoly on running the national government, because it had an extensive electoral machine structure in the rural areas. So, during those periods, the question was not which party would win, but which faction and who among the LDP grandees would rule. In other words, it was an oligarchy.
     
    My point is basically that when the army is an institution personally answerable to you, with no checks on your power, the oligarchical aspects are purely notional, and dictatorship is simply a matter of the one man with real power exercising the prerogatives he was handed. The problem is that the PLA answers to the Party, not the people of China. As head of that Party, Xi Jinping, like his predecessors, can have someone killed on his say-so. No LDP leader has been able to do this.

    IIRC, Roman consuls were granted 1 year non-consecutive terms, and there were always at least 2. Each consul had his own army. Consuls also had the power of life and death in their domains. But the short terms and the non-consecutive nature of their tenures helped alleviate the danger of them assuming kingly powers for life. The idea being that a commander who leads an armed force for long enough can make himself king. And that's exactly what Xi Jinping has done in his 10 years as China's ruler.

    Deng Xiaoping wanted oligarchical rule by Party grandees. He needed to divide up power as in Republican Rome to ensure his reforms stood the test of time. But that risked having rival armed factions within the Party going head-to-head, as in all other regimes going back to the Roman Republic, even in the Chinese empire itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_of_the_Seven_States#Prelude

    So he kept power in a single pair of hands to avert the possibility of civil strife, and ended up with the same system of one-man rule that he had inherited.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    As head of that Party, Xi Jinping, like his predecessors, can have someone killed on his say-so. No LDP leader has been able to do this.

    Fair point, but an LDP leader is not completely powerless against a troublesome domestic problem. There is always civilized ways to make that person’s life miserable (the Singaporean government is also a master at this). Then, if push were come to shove, there is always a helpful Yakuza connection who can either embarrass or physically threaten (or even hurt in rare cases).

  245. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’m a lot older than you.
     
    What's "a lot"?

    How do I defend my self ? I don’t mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I’ll blow him away but I make sure it’s done in a self defense way.
     
    You are not answering my question. You wrote that I was lucky I wasn't standing in front you and that you'd eat me for breakfast. You implied that you'd start a fight with me. As I expected, you just deflected and dodged. You don't have the training or experience for unarmed combat. And your answer of "just shooting" someone is a stupid one that'll get you locked away for a very long time unless your lawyers can convince a grand jury, the prosecutor or the jury that a "reasonable" person would fear death or grave bodily harm in your situation.

    Before you even begin unarmed combat - we'll assume for the moment as a defender - you have to assess your potential opponent's posture and readiness. He'll give off some physical signs, e.g. his eyes will "pop out" (it's just the tension + pupils dilating), his body will tense and become stiff (sometimes even shaky - he's getting an adrenaline dump), and he will often blade his body to his non-dominant side (if he is a righty, he'll present his left side to you and almost "hide" the right arm away from you, because he's about to take a big overhand swing).

    The next thing you have to assess quickly is distance, because distance management determines the context of the all-important first collision of bodies. Even though I am competent in striking, I don't like to take chances exchanging strikes (because I don't want to eat an errant lucky punch in the pocket), so I will either "go all the way in or all the way out." If I were armed (which I am 99% of the time), I'll move away laterally from the axis of the attack and also create distance, so I can draw unimpeded. This is also crucial if the attacker is armed.

    In a completely unarmed vs. unarmed scenario, the next thing to assess is the opponent's stance. Is he right-handed or a southpaw? Is he standing upright or crouching? 80+% of the people you encounter will favor the right and the vast majority of people will stand upright with their chins up, head tilted away. Most likely they'll throw a winging right overhand as the opening move. My go-to in this situation is to Tai-Sabaki (pivot) to the right - away from the power side of that overhand - with my left hand in high guard to protect my head , clinch and get a right underhook.

    Once I have a right underhook, I typically go for O Goshi (hip lock in wrestling) or Tai Otoshi (body drop) if he hips away from my hip. Once I throw the opponent over, I try to get control of the "head and arm" (Kesa-Gatame) and I drop some punches to the exposed face - fight's over at this point. In many of the fights I had, I never had to throw a single punch, because the fight was over the moment my opponent was thrown overhead and landed on his back.

    If the throw doesn't land flush and he falls sideways or turtles (another common untrained reaction), I usually take the back mount with hooks in, flatten the opponent out with my hips, and then I throw a few elbows to the back of the neck and the fight's over (if I want to be "nice," I'll rear-strangle him from here instead of pounding away at his neck/spine with my elbow).

    This is just one, if very common, scenario. If I see someone crouching, I'd assume he's done some wrestling or BJJ and deal with the situation accordingly (once in a blue moon, I've had guys shoot a power double on me in fights) - usually I use whizzer kick (Uchimata with an overhook) and faceplant him.

    So, no, you are not going to eat me for breakfast unless you are much more skilled than I am (high unlikely given your complete non-answer and likely ignorance about fighting), much faster, stronger, and have quicker reaction time (also highly unlikely given your supposed age) or you catch me by surprise (good luck with that if you "flex" ahead in real life the way you do with words).

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    Hey junior, I’ll be 80 years old in a few years. I’m not interested in your B.S. about unarmed fighting. I’m too old for that.

    I’ll challenge you to a western style gun fight. We face each other and at the count of 10, we shoot at each other and I’ll blow you away. On the other hand, you might kill me. That’s alright with me too.
    At this stage of my life, I don’t give a damn about a lot of things.

    • Troll: Twinkie
  246. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’m a lot older than you.
     
    What's "a lot"?

    How do I defend my self ? I don’t mess around. I just shoot. I have a concealed-carry permit. If some punk attacks me, I’ll blow him away but I make sure it’s done in a self defense way.
     
    You are not answering my question. You wrote that I was lucky I wasn't standing in front you and that you'd eat me for breakfast. You implied that you'd start a fight with me. As I expected, you just deflected and dodged. You don't have the training or experience for unarmed combat. And your answer of "just shooting" someone is a stupid one that'll get you locked away for a very long time unless your lawyers can convince a grand jury, the prosecutor or the jury that a "reasonable" person would fear death or grave bodily harm in your situation.

    Before you even begin unarmed combat - we'll assume for the moment as a defender - you have to assess your potential opponent's posture and readiness. He'll give off some physical signs, e.g. his eyes will "pop out" (it's just the tension + pupils dilating), his body will tense and become stiff (sometimes even shaky - he's getting an adrenaline dump), and he will often blade his body to his non-dominant side (if he is a righty, he'll present his left side to you and almost "hide" the right arm away from you, because he's about to take a big overhand swing).

    The next thing you have to assess quickly is distance, because distance management determines the context of the all-important first collision of bodies. Even though I am competent in striking, I don't like to take chances exchanging strikes (because I don't want to eat an errant lucky punch in the pocket), so I will either "go all the way in or all the way out." If I were armed (which I am 99% of the time), I'll move away laterally from the axis of the attack and also create distance, so I can draw unimpeded. This is also crucial if the attacker is armed.

    In a completely unarmed vs. unarmed scenario, the next thing to assess is the opponent's stance. Is he right-handed or a southpaw? Is he standing upright or crouching? 80+% of the people you encounter will favor the right and the vast majority of people will stand upright with their chins up, head tilted away. Most likely they'll throw a winging right overhand as the opening move. My go-to in this situation is to Tai-Sabaki (pivot) to the right - away from the power side of that overhand - with my left hand in high guard to protect my head , clinch and get a right underhook.

    Once I have a right underhook, I typically go for O Goshi (hip lock in wrestling) or Tai Otoshi (body drop) if he hips away from my hip. Once I throw the opponent over, I try to get control of the "head and arm" (Kesa-Gatame) and I drop some punches to the exposed face - fight's over at this point. In many of the fights I had, I never had to throw a single punch, because the fight was over the moment my opponent was thrown overhead and landed on his back.

    If the throw doesn't land flush and he falls sideways or turtles (another common untrained reaction), I usually take the back mount with hooks in, flatten the opponent out with my hips, and then I throw a few elbows to the back of the neck and the fight's over (if I want to be "nice," I'll rear-strangle him from here instead of pounding away at his neck/spine with my elbow).

    This is just one, if very common, scenario. If I see someone crouching, I'd assume he's done some wrestling or BJJ and deal with the situation accordingly (once in a blue moon, I've had guys shoot a power double on me in fights) - usually I use whizzer kick (Uchimata with an overhook) and faceplant him.

    So, no, you are not going to eat me for breakfast unless you are much more skilled than I am (high unlikely given your complete non-answer and likely ignorance about fighting), much faster, stronger, and have quicker reaction time (also highly unlikely given your supposed age) or you catch me by surprise (good luck with that if you "flex" ahead in real life the way you do with words).

    Replies: @tamo, @tamo

    In case you don’t accept my gunfight challenge, then I’ll just walk away. Consider yourself lucky because I didn’t eat you for breakfast.

    • Troll: Twinkie
  247. @Twinkie
    @Jack D

    I agree with the general thrust of your argument here. Neither Russia nor China is a totalitarian communist dictatorship of yore. They are authoritarian countries, in which the ruling regimes do care considerably about the public opinion - they can and will utilize force to suppress internal dissent, but they'd rather not have to do so.

    That said, cattle is not the right analogy here (cattle are bred to be slaughtered), sheep is. The Roman emperor Tiberius is said to have commanded his governors that "a good shepherd shears the sheep, he does not skin it."

    Replies: @Jack D

    OK, DAIRY cattle.

  248. Asians bragging about what tough guys they are. Must be the internet.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Inverness

    I'll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.

    I bet you are a little wimpy keyboard worrier.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  249. @Inverness
    Asians bragging about what tough guys they are. Must be the internet.

    Replies: @tamo

    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.

    I bet you are a little wimpy keyboard worrier.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.
     
    You two can troll away at each other to your hearts' content, but I have to set the record straight on something.

    First of all, ROK Marines are and have been an all-volunteer force, unlike ROKA conscripts. And ROK forces who went to Vietnam were all picked volunteers with a high degree of motivation. They were particularly thorough in their search & destroy operations (an area wasn't considered cleared until multiple units swept the same area repeatedly) and excelled in close quarter combat unlike the American forces that relied heavily on arty and air support.

    Also, while it's likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It's not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me - while they were drunk - exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles' company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    Moreover, this was almost 50 years ago. Today's ROK Marines (or ROK armed forces in general) are not made up of the same steely-eyed, phlegmatic, and even brutal anti-communist men who grew up during the Korean War or in the extremely spartan post-Korean War years. The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on "reconstruction" (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects).

    Today's ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone the incredible support services that the latter field as force multipliers).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @That Would Be Telling, @tamo

  250. @tamo
    @Inverness

    I'll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.

    I bet you are a little wimpy keyboard worrier.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.

    You two can troll away at each other to your hearts’ content, but I have to set the record straight on something.

    First of all, ROK Marines are and have been an all-volunteer force, unlike ROKA conscripts. And ROK forces who went to Vietnam were all picked volunteers with a high degree of motivation. They were particularly thorough in their search & destroy operations (an area wasn’t considered cleared until multiple units swept the same area repeatedly) and excelled in close quarter combat unlike the American forces that relied heavily on arty and air support.

    Also, while it’s likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It’s not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me – while they were drunk – exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles’ company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    Moreover, this was almost 50 years ago. Today’s ROK Marines (or ROK armed forces in general) are not made up of the same steely-eyed, phlegmatic, and even brutal anti-communist men who grew up during the Korean War or in the extremely spartan post-Korean War years. The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on “reconstruction” (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects).

    Today’s ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone the incredible support services that the latter field as force multipliers).

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Also, while it’s likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It’s not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me – while they were drunk – exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles’ company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.
     
    To be fair, that was the kind of brutality used by the VC and the VPA to enforce its writ. Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas who butchered civilians and government employees who disobeyed their edicts - along with their families.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Nguy%E1%BB%85n_V%C4%83n_L%C3%A9m#Execution

    In Indonesia, the government matched the ruthlessness of their communist adversaries, and wrapped up the communist revolt in a year, after killing an estimated 600K people, some of whom were doubtless innocents.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

    The utilitarian calculus comes to down to the assessment that the choice was between large scale butchery in a short period or a prolonged civil war resulting in the Four Horsemen working their whims on tens of millions.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie


    Today’s ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops....
     
    One wrinkle for the current US Marines, they're getting rid of or have gotten rid of their tanks, so they're explicitly no longer playing the combined arms game by themselves.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @tamo
    @Twinkie

    You are supposed to be an expert in unarmed fighting. why don't you tell "Inverness" who wrote post 248, how tough you are, lol !!! I think he insulted you too. Come on. I'm waiting.

  251. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.
     
    You two can troll away at each other to your hearts' content, but I have to set the record straight on something.

    First of all, ROK Marines are and have been an all-volunteer force, unlike ROKA conscripts. And ROK forces who went to Vietnam were all picked volunteers with a high degree of motivation. They were particularly thorough in their search & destroy operations (an area wasn't considered cleared until multiple units swept the same area repeatedly) and excelled in close quarter combat unlike the American forces that relied heavily on arty and air support.

    Also, while it's likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It's not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me - while they were drunk - exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles' company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    Moreover, this was almost 50 years ago. Today's ROK Marines (or ROK armed forces in general) are not made up of the same steely-eyed, phlegmatic, and even brutal anti-communist men who grew up during the Korean War or in the extremely spartan post-Korean War years. The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on "reconstruction" (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects).

    Today's ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone the incredible support services that the latter field as force multipliers).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @That Would Be Telling, @tamo

    Also, while it’s likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It’s not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me – while they were drunk – exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles’ company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    To be fair, that was the kind of brutality used by the VC and the VPA to enforce its writ. Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas who butchered civilians and government employees who disobeyed their edicts – along with their families.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Nguy%E1%BB%85n_V%C4%83n_L%C3%A9m#Execution

    In Indonesia, the government matched the ruthlessness of their communist adversaries, and wrapped up the communist revolt in a year, after killing an estimated 600K people, some of whom were doubtless innocents.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

    The utilitarian calculus comes to down to the assessment that the choice was between large scale butchery in a short period or a prolonged civil war resulting in the Four Horsemen working their whims on tens of millions.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas
     
    When you are foreigners and/or "the strong" in the conflict, that's never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that "when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins." This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  252. Things you said about the ROK troops in Vietnam War are largely true.

    You said “The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on “reconstruction” (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects)”.

    During the Vietnam War , South Korea was a very poor country also it still felt gratitude toward America for saving South Korea from communism. So Koreans thought it was their turn to help their biggest and generous ally, the U.S. and pay back the American sacrifice in blood for Korea during the Korean War, by sending COMBAT ARMS TROOPS to Vietnam.

    But by the time when South Korea sent it’s troops to Iraq in 2004, South Korea was a changed country, it became far richer.

    Unlike the military regime under president Park Chung Hee whom I admire greatly that sent South Korean troops to Vietnam, South Korea was a democratic country which must pay a lot of attention to public opinions and America was not as popular as it used to be among the South Koreans who felt South Korea had already paid back America for it’s help during the Korean War in blood by sending it’s troops to Vietnam, felt less obligated to help the U.S for it’s military operations in Iraq.

    So instead of sending mostly COMBAT ARMS UNITS such as infantry, armor, artillery. combat engineers to Iraq, South Korean government sent largely NON – COMBAT ARMS SUPPORT units such as medical personnel. engineers, etc. So comparing American, British combat arms units in Iraq to MAINLY NON-COMBAT ARMS South Korean units is not a fair comparison.

    Now, the discipline of military personnel in all the Eastern and Western militaries is not as strict as they used to be in the 1960s.

    When I said “I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat”.

    I meant ONLY IDIVIDUAL ROK marine’s military DISCIPLINE nothing else, not ROK Marine Corps’ combined arms capabilities as a whole. No military beats the U,S. military when it comes to combined arms capabilities. Yes, as an light 0 infantry platoon sergeant who has to do actual combat, I’ll take far better-disciplined ROK Marines over the Western troops. in a heart beat.

    Also South Korean government sent about 2000 combat arms personnel to Iraq comprising of ROK Army Special Warfare Command( yuk gun tuk jen sa) and commando unit and some ROK Marines.
    But these ROK combat units’ job was defensive in nature, mainly protecting the South Korean non-combat arms support units, not actively engaging in offensive search and destroy missions.

    I’m very sure these South Korean combat units would have performed with distinction in Iraq when called for.

  253. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.
     
    You two can troll away at each other to your hearts' content, but I have to set the record straight on something.

    First of all, ROK Marines are and have been an all-volunteer force, unlike ROKA conscripts. And ROK forces who went to Vietnam were all picked volunteers with a high degree of motivation. They were particularly thorough in their search & destroy operations (an area wasn't considered cleared until multiple units swept the same area repeatedly) and excelled in close quarter combat unlike the American forces that relied heavily on arty and air support.

    Also, while it's likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It's not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me - while they were drunk - exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles' company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    Moreover, this was almost 50 years ago. Today's ROK Marines (or ROK armed forces in general) are not made up of the same steely-eyed, phlegmatic, and even brutal anti-communist men who grew up during the Korean War or in the extremely spartan post-Korean War years. The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on "reconstruction" (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects).

    Today's ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone the incredible support services that the latter field as force multipliers).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @That Would Be Telling, @tamo

    Today’s ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops….

    One wrinkle for the current US Marines, they’re getting rid of or have gotten rid of their tanks, so they’re explicitly no longer playing the combined arms game by themselves.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @That Would Be Telling


    One wrinkle for the current US Marines, they’re getting rid of or have gotten rid of their tanks, so they’re explicitly no longer playing the combined arms game by themselves.
     
    We are more "joint" than just about all other armies (witness the enormous difficulty the Russian military is having coordinating its disparate elements in mobile operations). Armor is not going to disappear in the U.S. armed forces - it's just going to be a specialty for the army. And the U.S. Marine Corps still has lots of "combined" elements going on, far more so than all such amphibious infantry forces of any significant scale in the world.

    I am somewhat sympathetic to this development, because the survivability of armor in this day and age of swarms of drones and lethal 5th gen ATGM is quite questionable. As with personal combat, the Marine Corps is basically subscribing to the idea of "all the way in or all the way out" for improving survivability in a conflict with a near-peer competitor (that'd be China). Mobility and dispersal are probably elements far more useful for survival inside the precision-guided munitions range than thick armor is at missile engagement ranges.
  254. @Twinkie
    @tamo


    I’ll take ROK (South Korean) Marines over any Western troops in a heart beat. You ask any American Vietnam War veterans about the South Korean troops in Vietnam.
     
    You two can troll away at each other to your hearts' content, but I have to set the record straight on something.

    First of all, ROK Marines are and have been an all-volunteer force, unlike ROKA conscripts. And ROK forces who went to Vietnam were all picked volunteers with a high degree of motivation. They were particularly thorough in their search & destroy operations (an area wasn't considered cleared until multiple units swept the same area repeatedly) and excelled in close quarter combat unlike the American forces that relied heavily on arty and air support.

    Also, while it's likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It's not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me - while they were drunk - exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles' company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.

    Moreover, this was almost 50 years ago. Today's ROK Marines (or ROK armed forces in general) are not made up of the same steely-eyed, phlegmatic, and even brutal anti-communist men who grew up during the Korean War or in the extremely spartan post-Korean War years. The US military sought a South Korean contingent for the Iraq War and expected Vietnam War-era ROK troops 2.0 and, instead, what it got was an extremely cautious and risk-averse force that buttoned down in ultra-safe Erbil and never ventured elsewhere and instead concentrated on "reconstruction" (with an eye toward getting Korean companies contracts for the local projects).

    Today's ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone the incredible support services that the latter field as force multipliers).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @That Would Be Telling, @tamo

    You are supposed to be an expert in unarmed fighting. why don’t you tell “Inverness” who wrote post 248, how tough you are, lol !!! I think he insulted you too. Come on. I’m waiting.

  255. @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Frankly I don't give a damn about communism. There is nothing communistic about China except the name of the ruling party.

    But I give the CCP the credit for founding a strong nation after the century of national humiliation and getting hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty although they made such terrible mistakes as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

    Yes, I'm of Korean descent . I speak Korean and event though I don't speak Japanese, when I read a Japanese newspaper, I can roughly understand what they are talking about due to the written Chinese characters the Japanese newspaper uses. This is the a good example of how both Korea and Japan were greatly influenced by Chinese culture.

    What you said about the military incompetence of Song dynasty is true but it was also one of the golden ages in Chinese history. We Koreans learn about Chinese history at early age so you don't tell me anything I don't know.

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea. Yes, it was a very humiliating event for Korea but the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse. Korea felt the negative effects of the Japanese invasion for the next 200 years.

    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I'm one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Eagle Eye

    Communism was the trojan horse of Russian imperialism– easily more rapacious than the Western version, that Japan was reacting to.

    In light of recent Russian aggression and CCP hard-handed policy, many Chinese are beginning to be receptive to the Japanese perspective. And as you wrote, South Korean are grateful to not have lived under it.

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

    In the hugely popular book I mentioned above, the loyalty that Joseon demonstrated to Ming is deeply appreciated.

    But PRC inherits Qing not Ming borders, so these days there’s some cynicism about Joseon’s motivations. In addition the Qing invasion is not at all mentioned in most Chinese history books.

    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I’m one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

    Thanks. More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.

    The Russians brusquely refusing Itō Hirobumi’s proposal of Man-Kan kōkan ron 満韓交換論 “the exchange of Manchuria to Russia for recognition of Korea as a protectorate of Japan” was what led to the Russo-Japanese War. The attitude was “what’s ours is ours, what yours is also ours.”

    But many Chinese take a placating attitude towards historical Russian aggression, so this is rarely mentioned.

    You can see I’m trying to give pointed critique on the PRC, not repudiate it in general.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.
     
    I wrote about this before, but here goes again.

    1) The Japanese didn't exactly develop Korea (north for industrialization and south for agriculture) out of the goodness of their hearts. It was being developed as a springboard for further Japanese military adventures in Manchuria and beyond.

    2) Some of the earlier Japanese civilian leadership sought a softer assimilationist approach to occupying Korea (which was one of the reasons why the Korean independence movement frequently targeted the less hardline Japanese leaders, fearing that the policies of the latter would garner greater support among the Koreans).

    3) Once the Pacific War got serious, however, the soft approach disappeared and instead was replaced by harsh militarist repression and economic exploitation that deeply alienated the Koreans, perhaps irrevocably.

    This all said, both the Japanese and the Koreans need to get over things that happened 75+ years ago and think about the common interests they share today - balancing the rising Chinese hegemon in their region. And I believe that is precisely what is happening with the new administration in South Korea.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    , @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    You are ok with me, I'm beginning to like you. When it comes to Korea- Japan relationship, Korea must move away from the past.

    I'm sick and tired of "comfort women " issue. In my opinion, the issue with along with many others was resolved in 1965 when the two countries established diplomatic relationship after Japan gave substantial amounts of funds in the form of grant and loans to South Korea. President Park wisely used that money in developing the dirt-poor country. The Japanese money was essential for the Korean economic development.

  256. @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Also, while it’s likely true that the ROK AORs were reputedly some of the safest in Vietnam, some of that had to do with the extreme brutality with which the ROK forces terrified the local Vietnamese populations. It’s not for nothing that the ROK troops were accused of numerous war crimes, some of which were no doubt true. I know this, because two of my uncles were ROK infantry company commanders in Vietnam and told me – while they were drunk – exactly what kind of things their companies did to the local civilian populations that were suspected of being VCI (Vietcong Infrastructure, aka sympathizers and collaborators with VC or North Vietnam). Once when one of my uncles’ company was ambushed outside a village, he ordered his company to do unspeakable things to the village to ensure that it would no longer assist the VC. That kind of brutality is no bueno in this day of ubiquitous mobile phones and cameras.
     
    To be fair, that was the kind of brutality used by the VC and the VPA to enforce its writ. Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas who butchered civilians and government employees who disobeyed their edicts - along with their families.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Nguy%E1%BB%85n_V%C4%83n_L%C3%A9m#Execution

    In Indonesia, the government matched the ruthlessness of their communist adversaries, and wrapped up the communist revolt in a year, after killing an estimated 600K people, some of whom were doubtless innocents.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

    The utilitarian calculus comes to down to the assessment that the choice was between large scale butchery in a short period or a prolonged civil war resulting in the Four Horsemen working their whims on tens of millions.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas

    When you are foreigners and/or “the strong” in the conflict, that’s never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that “when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins.” This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    When you are foreigners and/or “the strong” in the conflict, that’s never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that “when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins.” This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).
     
    That's true but not decisive in favor of the guerrillas. Long before Lidice, which put an end to Czech resistance, Alexander killed entire cities to pre-empt guerrilla warfare. Guerrillas attempt to maximize the financial cost to the invader, since he can't possibly defend everywhere. Conquerors overcome this by denying guerrillas sanctuary, by wiping out everyone he and his supporters hold dear. That was why superior military power always checkmated guerrillas. It was a given that draconian punitive measures would be used to eliminate any attempt to bankrupt the conquerors, including the literal extinction of anyone within some radius of where the guerrillas operated. William of Normandy gave no quarter to the population of the area in which some of his retainers were ambushed and wiped out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

    Since would-be guerrillas risked the deaths of everyone they held dear, those unwilling to submit often went into exile. In the case of the Saxon nobility, a number may have - in the course of their flight from the Normans - ended up in Crimea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Replies: @Twinkie

  257. @That Would Be Telling
    @Twinkie


    Today’s ROK Marines are a well-trained and well-equipped amphibious infantry force, but they are no better than many other such forces fielded by Western countries, including the United States (their discipline might be still a bit tougher than that of some Western forces, but they lack wartime experience as well as combined armed capabilities of American and European troops....
     
    One wrinkle for the current US Marines, they're getting rid of or have gotten rid of their tanks, so they're explicitly no longer playing the combined arms game by themselves.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    One wrinkle for the current US Marines, they’re getting rid of or have gotten rid of their tanks, so they’re explicitly no longer playing the combined arms game by themselves.

    We are more “joint” than just about all other armies (witness the enormous difficulty the Russian military is having coordinating its disparate elements in mobile operations). Armor is not going to disappear in the U.S. armed forces – it’s just going to be a specialty for the army. And the U.S. Marine Corps still has lots of “combined” elements going on, far more so than all such amphibious infantry forces of any significant scale in the world.

    I am somewhat sympathetic to this development, because the survivability of armor in this day and age of swarms of drones and lethal 5th gen ATGM is quite questionable. As with personal combat, the Marine Corps is basically subscribing to the idea of “all the way in or all the way out” for improving survivability in a conflict with a near-peer competitor (that’d be China). Mobility and dispersal are probably elements far more useful for survival inside the precision-guided munitions range than thick armor is at missile engagement ranges.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  258. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    Communism was the trojan horse of Russian imperialism-- easily more rapacious than the Western version, that Japan was reacting to.

    In light of recent Russian aggression and CCP hard-handed policy, many Chinese are beginning to be receptive to the Japanese perspective. And as you wrote, South Korean are grateful to not have lived under it.


    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

     

    In the hugely popular book I mentioned above, the loyalty that Joseon demonstrated to Ming is deeply appreciated.

    But PRC inherits Qing not Ming borders, so these days there's some cynicism about Joseon's motivations. In addition the Qing invasion is not at all mentioned in most Chinese history books.


    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I’m one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

     

    Thanks. More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.

    The Russians brusquely refusing Itō Hirobumi's proposal of Man-Kan kōkan ron 満韓交換論 "the exchange of Manchuria to Russia for recognition of Korea as a protectorate of Japan" was what led to the Russo-Japanese War. The attitude was "what's ours is ours, what yours is also ours."

    But many Chinese take a placating attitude towards historical Russian aggression, so this is rarely mentioned.

    You can see I'm trying to give pointed critique on the PRC, not repudiate it in general.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @tamo

    More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.

    I wrote about this before, but here goes again.

    1) The Japanese didn’t exactly develop Korea (north for industrialization and south for agriculture) out of the goodness of their hearts. It was being developed as a springboard for further Japanese military adventures in Manchuria and beyond.

    2) Some of the earlier Japanese civilian leadership sought a softer assimilationist approach to occupying Korea (which was one of the reasons why the Korean independence movement frequently targeted the less hardline Japanese leaders, fearing that the policies of the latter would garner greater support among the Koreans).

    3) Once the Pacific War got serious, however, the soft approach disappeared and instead was replaced by harsh militarist repression and economic exploitation that deeply alienated the Koreans, perhaps irrevocably.

    This all said, both the Japanese and the Koreans need to get over things that happened 75+ years ago and think about the common interests they share today – balancing the rising Chinese hegemon in their region. And I believe that is precisely what is happening with the new administration in South Korea.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Twinkie

    I know, you wrote about it on this thread, https://www.unz.com/isteve/ripped-from-the-headlines/


    springboard for further Japanese military adventures in Manchuria
     
    This is the conventional PRC narrative, that Japan had a premeditated plan that culminated in invasion of "Dongbei" in 1931 and China Proper in 1937. And most Anglo and Japanese Left historians go along with this. But--

    - Zhang Xueliang's instigation of war with Soviets in 1929 was an example of Chinese "military adventure", so to label the Japanese is just pot-calling-kettle-black.

    - Manchuria is by then definition, land of the Manchus, that Han Chinese had no prerogative on. Puyi had a legitimate claim as ruler there, that he decided to go over on the side of Kwantung Army in 1931 was his own decision and no business for Han Chinese to call him a hanjian.

    - Qing's official position in Russo-Japanese War was neutral but a number of bigwigs, Yuan Shikai, Zhang Zuolin, unofficially supported the Japanese to kick the Russians out of Manchuria.

    In exchange the Japanese got a legal foothold in Dalian since 1905 (Kwantung Leased Territory). They had much better opportunities to invade Manchuria and China during the more divided Beiyang era, than after Chiang's Northern Expedition and Nanjing Decade.

    - In 1937, there was a massacre of Japanese and Korean civilians in China that outraged the Japanese public (Tungchow Mutiny). The first major action the war in 1937 was in Shanghai. But it was KMT who first to mobilize and first to shoot against a thinly-held Japanese Marine garrison, who again had legal presence in Shanghai, and the Japanese had reasonably feared that another massacre against civilians would take place.


    Once the Pacific War got serious

     

    There was a détente between Chiang and Okamura Yasuji in 1942-1944 on China mainland. The Japanese managed the economy better in their regions than the KMT did. Once KMT recovered those territories they categorically labelled anyone even professors and students as "collaborators", and proceeded to totally wrecked the economy. This was a reason why Chiang got kicked off Mainland so quickly, and was still unpopular for awhile on Taiwan.

    both the Japanese and the Koreans need to get over things that happened 75+ years ago and think about the common interests they share today
     
    Exactly, you'll want to know the counterpoints to PRC's narrative, which a lot of it now amounts to moral blackmail. No one who actually lived through the war, Chiang, Mao, Deng ever baited nationalistic enmity towards Japan to the extent it is done now.
  259. @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke


    Ultimately, to win at a reasonable cost and give the local civilians an out for staying neutral, you need to match the brutality of the guerrillas
     
    When you are foreigners and/or "the strong" in the conflict, that's never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that "when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins." This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    When you are foreigners and/or “the strong” in the conflict, that’s never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that “when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins.” This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).

    That’s true but not decisive in favor of the guerrillas. Long before Lidice, which put an end to Czech resistance, Alexander killed entire cities to pre-empt guerrilla warfare. Guerrillas attempt to maximize the financial cost to the invader, since he can’t possibly defend everywhere. Conquerors overcome this by denying guerrillas sanctuary, by wiping out everyone he and his supporters hold dear. That was why superior military power always checkmated guerrillas. It was a given that draconian punitive measures would be used to eliminate any attempt to bankrupt the conquerors, including the literal extinction of anyone within some radius of where the guerrillas operated. William of Normandy gave no quarter to the population of the area in which some of his retainers were ambushed and wiped out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

    Since would-be guerrillas risked the deaths of everyone they held dear, those unwilling to submit often went into exile. In the case of the Saxon nobility, a number may have – in the course of their flight from the Normans – ended up in Crimea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke

    Those days are long gone.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  260. @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    When you are foreigners and/or “the strong” in the conflict, that’s never going to be seen in the same light as the guerillas/insurgents engaging in similar conduct. Particularly because of that dynamic, Martin van Creveld once wrote that “when the strong and the weak fight in a long war, the weak wins.” This is particularly so in this day of internet communication and ubiquitous mobile phones (with cameras).
     
    That's true but not decisive in favor of the guerrillas. Long before Lidice, which put an end to Czech resistance, Alexander killed entire cities to pre-empt guerrilla warfare. Guerrillas attempt to maximize the financial cost to the invader, since he can't possibly defend everywhere. Conquerors overcome this by denying guerrillas sanctuary, by wiping out everyone he and his supporters hold dear. That was why superior military power always checkmated guerrillas. It was a given that draconian punitive measures would be used to eliminate any attempt to bankrupt the conquerors, including the literal extinction of anyone within some radius of where the guerrillas operated. William of Normandy gave no quarter to the population of the area in which some of his retainers were ambushed and wiped out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

    Since would-be guerrillas risked the deaths of everyone they held dear, those unwilling to submit often went into exile. In the case of the Saxon nobility, a number may have - in the course of their flight from the Normans - ended up in Crimea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Those days are long gone.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    Those days are long gone.
     
    For the US and the EU, certainly. For everyone else, North Vietnam's atrocities in the South, China's atrocities in Lang Son (100,000 dead civilians in 6 weeks) and Indonesia's purge of suspected Communists all occurred within living memory.

    https://www.historynet.com/war-of-the-dragons-the-sino-vietnamese-war-1979/

    And in the current conflict, the Russians have conducted exemplary atrocities in Ukraine pour encourager les autres - complete with kill lists, in documents captured from Russians in retreat - in ways not dissimilar from their earlier campaigns against Ukrainian partisans.

    https://static.rusi.org/359-SR-Ukraine-Preliminary-Lessons-Feb-July-2022-web-final.pdf

    The difference today - Western supplies and a bare bones Ukrainian armory at the beginning that far exceeded what Ukrainian partisans had to work with almost 80 years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Spring_1945%E2%80%93late_1946
  261. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @tamo

    Communism was the trojan horse of Russian imperialism-- easily more rapacious than the Western version, that Japan was reacting to.

    In light of recent Russian aggression and CCP hard-handed policy, many Chinese are beginning to be receptive to the Japanese perspective. And as you wrote, South Korean are grateful to not have lived under it.


    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

     

    In the hugely popular book I mentioned above, the loyalty that Joseon demonstrated to Ming is deeply appreciated.

    But PRC inherits Qing not Ming borders, so these days there's some cynicism about Joseon's motivations. In addition the Qing invasion is not at all mentioned in most Chinese history books.


    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I’m one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

     

    Thanks. More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.

    The Russians brusquely refusing Itō Hirobumi's proposal of Man-Kan kōkan ron 満韓交換論 "the exchange of Manchuria to Russia for recognition of Korea as a protectorate of Japan" was what led to the Russo-Japanese War. The attitude was "what's ours is ours, what yours is also ours."

    But many Chinese take a placating attitude towards historical Russian aggression, so this is rarely mentioned.

    You can see I'm trying to give pointed critique on the PRC, not repudiate it in general.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @tamo

    You are ok with me, I’m beginning to like you. When it comes to Korea- Japan relationship, Korea must move away from the past.

    I’m sick and tired of “comfort women ” issue. In my opinion, the issue with along with many others was resolved in 1965 when the two countries established diplomatic relationship after Japan gave substantial amounts of funds in the form of grant and loans to South Korea. President Park wisely used that money in developing the dirt-poor country. The Japanese money was essential for the Korean economic development.

  262. @Twinkie
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    More Chinese should hear your perspective instead of concern-trolling for supposed damage Japan did to Korea.
     
    I wrote about this before, but here goes again.

    1) The Japanese didn't exactly develop Korea (north for industrialization and south for agriculture) out of the goodness of their hearts. It was being developed as a springboard for further Japanese military adventures in Manchuria and beyond.

    2) Some of the earlier Japanese civilian leadership sought a softer assimilationist approach to occupying Korea (which was one of the reasons why the Korean independence movement frequently targeted the less hardline Japanese leaders, fearing that the policies of the latter would garner greater support among the Koreans).

    3) Once the Pacific War got serious, however, the soft approach disappeared and instead was replaced by harsh militarist repression and economic exploitation that deeply alienated the Koreans, perhaps irrevocably.

    This all said, both the Japanese and the Koreans need to get over things that happened 75+ years ago and think about the common interests they share today - balancing the rising Chinese hegemon in their region. And I believe that is precisely what is happening with the new administration in South Korea.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I know, you wrote about it on this thread, https://www.unz.com/isteve/ripped-from-the-headlines/

    springboard for further Japanese military adventures in Manchuria

    This is the conventional PRC narrative, that Japan had a premeditated plan that culminated in invasion of “Dongbei” in 1931 and China Proper in 1937. And most Anglo and Japanese Left historians go along with this. But–

    – Zhang Xueliang’s instigation of war with Soviets in 1929 was an example of Chinese “military adventure”, so to label the Japanese is just pot-calling-kettle-black.

    – Manchuria is by then definition, land of the Manchus, that Han Chinese had no prerogative on. Puyi had a legitimate claim as ruler there, that he decided to go over on the side of Kwantung Army in 1931 was his own decision and no business for Han Chinese to call him a hanjian.

    – Qing’s official position in Russo-Japanese War was neutral but a number of bigwigs, Yuan Shikai, Zhang Zuolin, unofficially supported the Japanese to kick the Russians out of Manchuria.

    In exchange the Japanese got a legal foothold in Dalian since 1905 (Kwantung Leased Territory). They had much better opportunities to invade Manchuria and China during the more divided Beiyang era, than after Chiang’s Northern Expedition and Nanjing Decade.

    – In 1937, there was a massacre of Japanese and Korean civilians in China that outraged the Japanese public (Tungchow Mutiny). The first major action the war in 1937 was in Shanghai. But it was KMT who first to mobilize and first to shoot against a thinly-held Japanese Marine garrison, who again had legal presence in Shanghai, and the Japanese had reasonably feared that another massacre against civilians would take place.

    Once the Pacific War got serious

    There was a détente between Chiang and Okamura Yasuji in 1942-1944 on China mainland. The Japanese managed the economy better in their regions than the KMT did. Once KMT recovered those territories they categorically labelled anyone even professors and students as “collaborators”, and proceeded to totally wrecked the economy. This was a reason why Chiang got kicked off Mainland so quickly, and was still unpopular for awhile on Taiwan.

    both the Japanese and the Koreans need to get over things that happened 75+ years ago and think about the common interests they share today

    Exactly, you’ll want to know the counterpoints to PRC’s narrative, which a lot of it now amounts to moral blackmail. No one who actually lived through the war, Chiang, Mao, Deng ever baited nationalistic enmity towards Japan to the extent it is done now.

  263. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @That Would Be Telling

    self-exile outside of Japan

    Right, one of their most prominent mathematicians Mochizuki Shinichi 望月新一 is know for being a recluse. He also has a Jewish mother and went to Phillips Exeter and Princeton (but PhD in Japan).

    The Chinese mathematician famous for proving a version of the twin primes conjecture, Zhang Yitang, preferred to work at as a cashier in the US while doing his research on the side, rather than go back to PRC and be a more marginal professor-- there its much more status-obsessed.

    (Crowd is the untruth-- Søren Kierkegaard)

    very mixed bag of accomplishments and debacles

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster-- which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    That said, there's some misunderstandings of Japanese history, Keio Gijuku was founded by samurai Fukuzawa Yukichi 福澤諭吉 who's on the 10,000 yen bill. He wrote very critical of Qing China and Joseon Korea as backwards and despotic, and look to the West as a superior model to follow.

    The Chinese often accuse him of laying the intellectual foundation of "selling out other Asians to become honorary whites". But here we are, after a century of trials and tribulation, both PRC and DPRK have reverted to the imperial system.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @tamo, @Anonymous

    The Fukushima debacle had a lot indirect consequences. Germans assumed the Japanese would be impeccable and that it could not have been man-made disaster– which in fact it was, and therefore overestimated the risks of nuclear power.

    Germany’s government went public with its complete nuclear phase-out plan in 2011, shortly after the convenient March 11, 2011 earthquake/tsunami and the subsequent destruction of several nuclear power plants in Fukushima.

    Media reports do not indicate any in-depth, formal deliberation of this fundamental change of economic fundamentals, nor is there much interest in revising the 2011 “plan” in light of drastically higher costs for fossil fuels in 2022.

    Germany’s chancelor at the time, Angela Merkel, is alleged to have studied physics in East Germany.

  264. @Twinkie
    @Johann Ricke

    Those days are long gone.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Those days are long gone.

    For the US and the EU, certainly. For everyone else, North Vietnam’s atrocities in the South, China’s atrocities in Lang Son (100,000 dead civilians in 6 weeks) and Indonesia’s purge of suspected Communists all occurred within living memory.

    https://www.historynet.com/war-of-the-dragons-the-sino-vietnamese-war-1979/

    And in the current conflict, the Russians have conducted exemplary atrocities in Ukraine pour encourager les autres – complete with kill lists, in documents captured from Russians in retreat – in ways not dissimilar from their earlier campaigns against Ukrainian partisans.

    https://static.rusi.org/359-SR-Ukraine-Preliminary-Lessons-Feb-July-2022-web-final.pdf

    The difference today – Western supplies and a bare bones Ukrainian armory at the beginning that far exceeded what Ukrainian partisans had to work with almost 80 years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Spring_1945%E2%80%93late_1946

  265. Eagle Eye says:
    @tamo
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Frankly I don't give a damn about communism. There is nothing communistic about China except the name of the ruling party.

    But I give the CCP the credit for founding a strong nation after the century of national humiliation and getting hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty although they made such terrible mistakes as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

    Yes, I'm of Korean descent . I speak Korean and event though I don't speak Japanese, when I read a Japanese newspaper, I can roughly understand what they are talking about due to the written Chinese characters the Japanese newspaper uses. This is the a good example of how both Korea and Japan were greatly influenced by Chinese culture.

    What you said about the military incompetence of Song dynasty is true but it was also one of the golden ages in Chinese history. We Koreans learn about Chinese history at early age so you don't tell me anything I don't know.

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea. Yes, it was a very humiliating event for Korea but the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse. Korea felt the negative effects of the Japanese invasion for the next 200 years.

    Also when it comes to the occupation of Korea (1910-1945). by Japan, I'm one of the rare Koreans that believe Japan did more good than harm to Korea by developing the country.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Eagle Eye

    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

    The correct spelling of the transliterated term is Byeong Ja Ho Lan. Byeong Ja is a cyclical year number corresponding to 1636. The Chinese term Ho Lan is archaic and thus hard to understand for regular Koreans, just as a term like “seisin” would not be understood by non-specialist English readers.

    The Korean Wikipedia entry for the event 병자호란takes care to give the Chinese characters for the term: 丙子胡亂. Ho Lan 胡亂 literally means “barbarian uprising.”

    … the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse.

    The term 壬辰倭亂 is equivalent to Byeong Ja Ho Lan 丙子胡亂. Im Jin 壬辰 again is the cyclical year date, and 倭亂 Wae Lan means “uprising by Japanese barbarians.” The invasion may have had a larger impact on Korea, but the terms used in Korean historiography (written in classical Chinese, roughly equivalent to Latin in Europe) are not significantly different.

    • Replies: @tamo
    @Eagle Eye

    I'm almost 80 years old. I was born and raised there. I finished my elementary school, middle school, high school (up to junior year) in Korea. So I'm native Korean. So don't lecture me about Korean history and language.

    When I was growing up in the 50's and early 60's in Korea, they taught us in middle school how to recognize and the meaning of some basic Chinese written characters and we had to learn how to write some Chinese characters in high school. We even had calligraphy classes.

    At that time, there was no SET way of transliterating Korean words into English using Latin Alphabet. For example, some people with surname "Yi" spelled as Li or Ri or Rhee like Dr. Yi Sung Man aka Singman Rhee or just Yi (by the way, I don't have a Korean keyboard at this moment)

  266. @Eagle Eye
    @tamo


    The Qing invasion of Joseon Korea is called Beyong Ja Ho Lan in Korea.

     

    The correct spelling of the transliterated term is Byeong Ja Ho Lan. Byeong Ja is a cyclical year number corresponding to 1636. The Chinese term Ho Lan is archaic and thus hard to understand for regular Koreans, just as a term like "seisin" would not be understood by non-specialist English readers.

    The Korean Wikipedia entry for the event 병자호란takes care to give the Chinese characters for the term: 丙子胡亂. Ho Lan 胡亂 literally means "barbarian uprising."


    ... the Japanese invasion of Joseon that is called Im Jin Wae Lan, was far worse.
     
    The term 壬辰倭亂 is equivalent to Byeong Ja Ho Lan 丙子胡亂. Im Jin 壬辰 again is the cyclical year date, and 倭亂 Wae Lan means "uprising by Japanese barbarians." The invasion may have had a larger impact on Korea, but the terms used in Korean historiography (written in classical Chinese, roughly equivalent to Latin in Europe) are not significantly different.

    Replies: @tamo

    I’m almost 80 years old. I was born and raised there. I finished my elementary school, middle school, high school (up to junior year) in Korea. So I’m native Korean. So don’t lecture me about Korean history and language.

    When I was growing up in the 50’s and early 60’s in Korea, they taught us in middle school how to recognize and the meaning of some basic Chinese written characters and we had to learn how to write some Chinese characters in high school. We even had calligraphy classes.

    At that time, there was no SET way of transliterating Korean words into English using Latin Alphabet. For example, some people with surname “Yi” spelled as Li or Ri or Rhee like Dr. Yi Sung Man aka Singman Rhee or just Yi (by the way, I don’t have a Korean keyboard at this moment)

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