RSS
Hinduism.
The descendants of the conquerors from the North are still more or less on top after several thousand years.
In a 2014 review in Taki’s Magazine of economic historian Gregory Clark’s book on surname analysis, The Son Also Rises: Surnames and the History of Social Mobility, I wrote:
As Clark documents, there appears to be much less social mobility than has been assumed … Strikingly, Clark finds that class persistence appears to be around 0.75 [i.e., social mobility ~ 0.25] not only throughout British and American history, but all over the world, including Japan and welfare state Sweden. Heck, in China, Chairman Mao’s Cultural Revolution didn’t put much of a long-term dent in which surnames are high-class. …
The one exception to the Law of Social Mobility Clark has found is caste-ridden India, where Clark finds an “overall rate of social mobility close to zero. India seems to be a uniquely immobile society.”
And yet …
From Buzzfeed:
Progressive Millennial Indians, Let’s Talk About Why We Never Talk About Caste
While we share memes and hashtags about feminism, colourism, veganism, ally-ism and more, there’s an omnipresent injustice we enforce every day and don’t know how to recognise.
posted on Jun. 23, 2016, at 3:02 a.m.
by Ravikant Kisana
BuzzFeed Contributor, India
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The current, popular Indian Prime Minister Modi is from a designated ‘backward’ class (‘OBC’) http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/the-office-of-prime-minister-a-largely-north-indian-upper-caste-hindu-affair-114050700846_1.html
And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.
Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.
OBC stands for "Other Backwards Caste" a term defined in the Indian Constitution as a caste that isn't untouchables or tribal but still deserve affirmative action for historic discrimination.
OBC castes qualify for special government programs and benefit from affirmative action programs. Many Hindu castes actually lobby to obtain OBC status. And riots have broken out over denial of such status. The Brahmins and aristocratic castes cannot plausibly claim OBC status. But there are a huge slew of caste in between that try to qualify for OBC status.
About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The “C” word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other “C” word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as “light skinned.” The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn’t see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.
"Hateful"? To you maybe, but not to those who have successfully run India, a great civilisation, for thousands of years by keeping the best in charge of the worst.
This is what civilisation is all about; that it happens to put the lighter over the darker every time is just Nature having its say.
Cry about it all you like, but it will never change.
What about BO?
http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/seattle-elects-first-socialist-in-indian-american-kshama-sawant-113111901019_1.html
https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.htmlReplies: @Anonymous
And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.
Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.Replies: @SteveM, @Jimi
Re: “And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.
The irony is that the resultant American STEM workers displaced by lower caste rather than upper cast Indian H-1Bs will be completely indifferent to the sociological nuance since they will be kicked the curb just the same.
P.S. In a perverse context, C-Suite Cronies in many U.S. tech companies consider American citizen technologists to be “lower caste”. Those over 40 especially are “untouchables”. Now there’s a “reactionary ideology”.
Maybe the U.S. government should institute an affirmative action program for its own citizens.
I used to have a job gathering intelligence about the near-daily sectarian slaughters in the mountainous area of Kashmir/Pakistan/Afghanistan, and one term I often ran across was “wheat complexion.” The killers were invariably described as having such a skin tone (maybe I’m exaggerating, but that’s how it seemed at the time).
I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don’t know exactly who would be “wheat.” Could one call a typical Pushtoon a “wheat man”?
Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India
Black , for the dravidians
nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri
Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )
and there are shades of brown
Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish colorReplies: @SteveM, @Anon
How does cousin marriage factor into the equation? Is it practiced more or less frequently at the high caste level?
It is called Gothra, sort of like surname
All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra
Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side
Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousinsReplies: @Yak-15, @Lot
isn´t the old word for caste “varna” just another word for color?
but the way varna was assigned was as follows
White for brahmins
Red for kshatriya etc etc
obviously there are no red-skin Indians
IMHO, red referred to their blood letting duty of warriors
and white referred more to ritual purity than actual skin color
They are the same word. Sanskrit for caste is “varna”, which means color. Guess who’s on top?
Depends upon what you mean by in practice,and what constitutes an ideology. There are probably pygmy tribes that have stayed the same since the stone age, or whenever.
OT: Anyone see this author Sebastian Junger on PBS Newshour? He’s got a book out called Tribe about community..can’t even define tribe – no reference to extended family or race..jeesh. Does he have any idea where the aboriginal tribes came from?
He said our tribes need to be more diverse. Gah.
If your waiting for a kumbaya moment don’t hold your breath. Nature does t care for them.
Indian/Paki women seem to be natural feminists.
https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.html
I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don't know exactly who would be "wheat." Could one call a typical Pushtoon a "wheat man"?Replies: @rec1man, @Spmoore8
There are 4 types of Indian skin colors
Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India
Black , for the dravidians
nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri
Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )
and there are shades of brown
Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color"
Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?Replies: @rec1man
Varna means color,
but the way varna was assigned was as follows
White for brahmins
Red for kshatriya etc etc
obviously there are no red-skin Indians
IMHO, red referred to their blood letting duty of warriors
and white referred more to ritual purity than actual skin color
All hindus avoid marrying within same paternal clade – even 50 generations out
It is called Gothra, sort of like surname
All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra – never within same gothra
Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side
Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousins
Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?
I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.Replies: @rec1man, @AnotherDad
Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India
Black , for the dravidians
nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri
Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )
and there are shades of brown
Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish colorReplies: @SteveM, @Anon
Re: “Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color”
Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?
Wasn’t there a mid-1960’s hit song. . . “Caste Your Fate To The Wind”?
All of the Left-lib-prog Gandhi worshippers go suddenly speechless when I tell them that, for all his phony altruism-equality schtick, Gandhi never said a word about, let alone against, India’s caste system.
One my favorite quotes about Gandhi:
“You can’t imagine what it costs to keep Gandhi in poverty.” – Jawaharlal Nehru
And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.
Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.Replies: @SteveM, @Jimi
The current PM is actually from an affluent caste that has obtained “OBC” status through lobbying.
OBC stands for “Other Backwards Caste” a term defined in the Indian Constitution as a caste that isn’t untouchables or tribal but still deserve affirmative action for historic discrimination.
OBC castes qualify for special government programs and benefit from affirmative action programs. Many Hindu castes actually lobby to obtain OBC status. And riots have broken out over denial of such status. The Brahmins and aristocratic castes cannot plausibly claim OBC status. But there are a huge slew of caste in between that try to qualify for OBC status.
Lots of successful Dalit and Lower caste men , get themselves trophy Brahmin and Upper caste wives – like how Tiger Woods collects trophy blondes
Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP
and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri – Upper caste Punjabi merchant
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html
“I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.
—
The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife – he is bigamist,
he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her
—
This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician
—
This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin
the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )
—
This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu
She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the post
Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.Replies: @rec1man
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color"
Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?Replies: @rec1man
Padma Lakshmi color is the most common upper caste color, and it is called wheatish
It is called Gothra, sort of like surname
All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra
Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side
Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousinsReplies: @Yak-15, @Lot
I am inclined to believe this but do you have any empirical data?
My IT staff had a lot of interaction with H1-B people at various companies and contractors and found them to be almost uniformly unqualified. The vendors saved some personnel expense and induced clients to shop around for replacements. The vendor churn and service degradation were imposed costs that clients face daily. That is an example of the crapification of previously rational processes that is a time tax on people. Your time is equity and someone is plotting to dilute and monetize it.
But you’ll never lack for an Indian willing to lecture you on American racism.
The top 3 castes are all Aryan (with the ancient distinction being societal roles, not color).
When it comes to Indian race, the correct term is Aryan or Indo-European, not Hindu. By definition, Hindu is the Aryan religion – of the holy (v)Eddas – and the holiest – and in fact only – symbol of Hinduism is the holy Swastika. The Laltika (red dot) is also common but not a symbol. Om is a syLLable, not a symbol.
The bottom caste is not Aryan at all and is a different species of humans, aboriginal natives of India.
There are about 500 million Aryans in contemporary India, around 200-300 separate Aryan tribes.
There are also about 400 million Dravidians in India, who are entirely unrelated to Aryans racially and linguistically. They were the original inhabitants (and still are) of South India.
I’m not sure about the Aryan nature of Tamil (ie Dravidian) Brahmins. The term doesn’t make any sense to me…anyone know for sure ?
The rest is about a 100 million or so lower castes and about 100 million or so Oriental/Asian people.
As for the Caste System, that is inherent in any Aryan religion. Norse Eddas (closely related) as well as possibly Greek also had severe stratification.
I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don't know exactly who would be "wheat." Could one call a typical Pushtoon a "wheat man"?Replies: @rec1man, @Spmoore8
I seem to recall that “wheat” was the skin color stated for the San Berdoo killer on his dating site. So I’m guessing pancake brown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
One of the first things I noticed after moving to Vancouver was that all (most) of the White people I befriended man and woman alike, while your standard PC Canadian, would without prompting say:
“I f’n hate brown people.” Humorously it was often prefaced by “I’m not racist but…”
I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for “racism” against blacks.
Try livin’ next to ’em. I certainly understood the browns’ reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.
My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.Replies: @BenKenobi
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full.pdf
This is the latest dna study
In page 1596, the results are in graphic form
In page 1597 in table format
KSH = Khatri Sikh – Upper caste punjabi merchant, 98% ANI ( Aryan ) – most bollywood stars are Khatri – including Priyanka Chopra ( Quantico )
GBR = Gujurati Brahmin, 88% ANI
IYR = Iyer ( Tamil Brahmin ), 80% ANI
WBR = West Bengal Brahmin, 77% ANI
MRT = Maratha, peasant near Bombay, 58% ANI
PLN = Pallan, ( Tamil Dalit Dravidian ) , 49% ANI
These are all caste populations – the rest are minor forest tribals
India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.
Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?Replies: @rec1man
I think you can unpack a bunch of questions about this–attitudes, lack of discussion, etc.–by simple analogy to say James Traub and his “It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses”.
Same demand that the system cater to them, same superiority complex, same expectation of right to rule.
The one difference–in fairness–is that the upper caste Indians *are* the builders (or at least extenders from colonialism) of modern India and the only Indians of any proven competence–engineering, science, business, public administration. If they were kicked out of power it’s not clear what India would be like because the backward classes have never been educated and we don’t even really know how bad their genetic IQ is as there is actually quite a bit of direct material (inadequate nutrition) deprivation. India would almost certainly be an even bigger mess.
In contrast, James Traub is merely a whiny overclass parasite. All European societies and America were built by the natives that James Traub despises and have proven track records of functioning just fine–and in fact being *quite pleasant*–places to live without his caste around.
A couple of years ago I had an interesting abet brief conversation regarding American foreign policy with my physician from India, a relatively newly minted American citizen . . . things ended up quickly though when I mentioned in the course of this convo that India had a caste system. According to the doc, India has no caste system. Oh . . I said and changed the subject.
Some comments and questions about Indians:
Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.
Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more “democratic” than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.
Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that’s the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster’s (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra’s religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the “Abrahamic” faiths, i.e., something more “organic.”
I don’t see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don’t know of any Edda hymns.
Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don’t know how the classes lower than this, or the “untouchables”, evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there’s a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don’t think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.
The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the “Ur” IE symbol. However, that isn’t correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.
The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there’s lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.
Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.
- The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
- The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that's a pretty striking similarity.Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in "Summoning The Gods".Replies: @SPMoore8
Very recently I was enlightened by an Indian coworker on the subject of backward castes. “Only in India do people strive to be backward”. He was obviously very indignant about his classmates who were several generations from “backward” status and who still benefit from their disadvantage. Just this year, there were riots near Delhi as a clan of Indians lobbied for “backward” status and set-asides. This won’t last.
The reactionary right in India has introduced the term "creamy layer" into political dialogue. The idea is that there be a both an income and a caste test for affirmative action quotas and reservations. The creamy layer, of course, is those who are now part of the mainstream middle and upper classes, but technically still from "backward" castes.
A US analogy would be shutting down affirmative action benefits in college admissions to African Americans from comfortably off middle-class and professional families. They would be deemed to be the creamy layer that has already risen to the top of their cohort.
Not surprisingly, the left in India is screaming murder at the idea and trying to discredit it vigorously.
Incidentally, I love how Indian legal and constitutional terminology doesn't flinch at using the word "backward" in describing groups of people.
Progressive millennial Indians of the sort that browse and contribute to Buzzfeed are a vanishingly small minority in India; typically Westernized rich kids from the big cities with expensive educational credentials on their resumes and much wisdom derived from blogging. Not all that different from progressive millennials in America, the main difference being that in India, they have virtually no political power or ability to influence the grand narratives that drive electoral politics in the country. They are vastly outnumbered by the poor, and the poor are all segregated along various tribal interests, whether caste or religion or language. The only progressive party with a national scope they could join is the Congress, which is fading thanks to the incompetence of the Nehru-Gandhi family. Meanwhile, the reactionary right-wing BJP rises to power because of the Hindutva heartlands, and their stance on caste may charitably be compared to Reagan’s stance on race.
It’s a different situation in America where progressive millennials wield not-inconsiderable cultural power, even if they don’t vote enough to have much political power.
As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus
Several leaders of BJP are backward castes - including governors and chief ministers
*Kalyan Singh - backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 - now governor of Indian state
*Uma Bharati - backward caste - used as rabble rouser vs muslims
*Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste - chief minister of Madhya Pradesh
*Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal - Chief minister of AssamReplies: @Yak-15
"I f'n hate brown people." Humorously it was often prefaced by "I'm not racist but..."
I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for "racism" against blacks.
Try livin' next to 'em. I certainly understood the browns' reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.Replies: @rec1man, @Mike
The Vancouver Indians are mostly Jat Sikh, an extremely violent caste
Padma Lakshmi is a Tamil Speaking Brahmin
Essentially brahmin migrants from Northern India, with about 20% Dravidian admixture
There is no muslim admixture
On the contrary this, i.e. large scale affirmative action for low castes and ‘other backward castes’, has been in place for more than six decades in India, with up to 50% of jobs and college slots in some situations being set aside for that purpose.
The reactionary right in India has introduced the term “creamy layer” into political dialogue. The idea is that there be a both an income and a caste test for affirmative action quotas and reservations. The creamy layer, of course, is those who are now part of the mainstream middle and upper classes, but technically still from “backward” castes.
A US analogy would be shutting down affirmative action benefits in college admissions to African Americans from comfortably off middle-class and professional families. They would be deemed to be the creamy layer that has already risen to the top of their cohort.
Not surprisingly, the left in India is screaming murder at the idea and trying to discredit it vigorously.
Incidentally, I love how Indian legal and constitutional terminology doesn’t flinch at using the word “backward” in describing groups of people.
It is called Gothra, sort of like surname
All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra
Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side
Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousinsReplies: @Yak-15, @Lot
What does this mean?
Aren’t more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?
I have never heard the phrase “cross cousin.” In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.
They have a different marriage system,
direct cousin marriage is
father-brother-daughter / son
Mother-sister - daughter / son
Muslims do this and some Indian christians do this
Cross cousin marriage is
Father-Sister- daugher / son
Mother-brother-daughter / son
A few thoughts on the sociology:Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother's son\brother's daughter)--ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq--tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes--whose world we'd messed up--in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.In contrast the South Indians' exogamous (brother's daughter\mother's son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides--and dowry, for communities with it--back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste "community". (Rec1man doesn't mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother's-daughter to mother's-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get "settled" in their career before marriage.) Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular "community" (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church's push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states--trust at scale.Replies: @Steve Sailer
Indeed.
There has been a huge amount of highly relevant DNA research that has been applied lately to the question of Indian social groups, ancestries and pre-historic migrations. The 19th century notion of an outside Northern Aryan (white) conquest of a local, immobile Southern Dravidian (dark) population seems to be quite inadequate to the task of describing what happened and who Indians are.
Like you, I await the GNXP crowd to chip in, but until then my understanding is that there are basically two groups, ANI (loosely, Ancestral North Indians) and ASI (Ancestral South Indians) which possibly arrived about a thousand years apart a few thousand years ago, from elsewhere. They don’t map neatly into any North-South geographic divide, and there is plenty of admixture.
Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?
I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.Replies: @rec1man, @AnotherDad
90% of dravidians are Hindus
They have a different marriage system,
direct cousin marriage is
father-brother-daughter / son
Mother-sister – daughter / son
Muslims do this and some Indian christians do this
Cross cousin marriage is
Father-Sister- daugher / son
Mother-brother-daughter / son
Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India
Black , for the dravidians
nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri
Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )
and there are shades of brown
Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish colorReplies: @SteveM, @Anon
This is nonsense. My entire family are Dravidians and they vary from pale skin to dark brown. You’ll find plenty of black-skinned Dravidians, but you’ll also find plenty of black-skinned Northerners. Dravidian is a linguistic grouping, not unlike your Hispanics.
Nope, in America there is advantage to being a member of a victim group, and backwardness is evidence of victim-hood.
Our most sacred people are therefore the most backwards and uncivilized people in the world, African Muslim immigrants. When a white kid brings a fake bomb to school he made by taking apart a $5 alarm clock, he is suspended for a few weeks if not expelled for a year. When a black muslim boy does so, he is showered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of free computers and college scholarships.
It's a different situation in America where progressive millennials wield not-inconsiderable cultural power, even if they don't vote enough to have much political power.Replies: @rec1man
The goal of bjp is Hindu consolidation including dalits to create united front against muslims
As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus
Several leaders of BJP are backward castes – including governors and chief ministers
*Kalyan Singh – backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 – now governor of Indian state
*Uma Bharati – backward caste – used as rabble rouser vs muslims
*Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste – chief minister of Madhya Pradesh
*Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal – Chief minister of Assam
I actually, know him. He’s complex, and a very good guy. He is extremely intense and, in my opinion, may not “present well” on TV. His books are good. When he was a graduate student in the mid 80’s he wrote a very good book which is unlike any of his “War” books (or movie) of the last 10 or so years, “The Perfect Storm.” Anyway, Junger is a free spirit, beholden to no ideological camp. He is more a cultural anthropologist in his approach to the idea of “tribe.” He goes into the philosophy of the idea of “tribe,” not origin…does that make sense?
ugh…Clock Boy. Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are? Still in Qatar, or was it Oman?
There are several forms of Hinduism and only some of them can be properly termed as reactionary. The main orthodox current within Hinduism, that of Vedic ritualism, is descended from the very reactionary indo-european culture that spread through war and patriarchy.
Hinduism gradually evolved to become more liberal as the warriors settled down and became wealthy, and also accepted influences from other cultures into itself. At this point, the Hindu civilization gave rise to “protestant” religions like Buddhism. The following thousand years saw orthodox Hinduism adopt increasingly reactionary poses to distinguish itself from Buddhism, which in several ways foreshadowed today’s liberal progressivism. This is when the current form of the caste system became codified.
Meanwhile, non-orthodox Hindus reinterpreted their religion to make it more liberal and open, thereby leading many Buddhists to reconvert to Hinduism. The larger Hindu fold therefore contained about an even mix of reactionaries and progressives after the fall of Buddhism towards the end of the 1st millennium CE.
After that we had a thousand years of foreign rule, first 800 years of Muslims, then 200 years of the British. And one thing we see everywhere is that non-dominant cultures have to adopt very reactionary social mores in order to survive. Blacks and hispanics are far more right-wing in their innate social worldviews than Whites. As are Muslims who live in the west, compared to whites and to Muslims who live in Muslim countries. Same thing happened with Hindus in India.
The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name. The most important qualification parents look for in a prospective match is “what sort of family are they from?”. Meaning they want to have a marital alliance with a family of equal or higher social status. This usually requires the family be from the same caste that they are, in addition to wealth and connections. Each caste, no matter how low its standing in the hierarchy, considers itself quite unique and would be displeased with intermarriage, even if it were with a member of a higher caste.
The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance – because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.
Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.
I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I’ve finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.
"I f'n hate brown people." Humorously it was often prefaced by "I'm not racist but..."
I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for "racism" against blacks.
Try livin' next to 'em. I certainly understood the browns' reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.Replies: @rec1man, @Mike
Buddy of mine has this huge house next door to his place. It went in and out of foreclosure a few times after 2008. Finally, an Indian buys the place. He moves his extended family into the house. There are cars everywhere, people coming and going at all times, etc.
My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.
My girlfriend works in architecture here, and has an inside look at Vancouver real estate. She says it's typical for Indians to tear down an old White home that uses 40% of lot coverage to rebuild a house at 90% so they can pack 'em in.
He was in the paper this morning. It seems he’s back in town for a visit.
I came to a similar conclusion about Hinduism in 2008. It takes me back, although I don’t think I’ve really matured since. And I don’t think I ever did write that post on caste, or a couple book reviews I promised.
https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.htmlReplies: @Anonymous
Indian girls tend not to be good looking but you’re correct that several are very good looking. Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn’t look like she is from South Asia but Latin America. So maybe discrimination along lines of skin tone is quite rational. If you are Indian and want attractive children, find a fair mate.
The latest discoveries in genetics seem to support the view that the ‘Aryan’ invaders of India 5000 years ago were actually a *purely white European people* *originally from Europe* and not a Eurasian breed originating from the Asiatic steppe.
In the course of history the invaders or conquerors or whatever, once they have established themselves as a ruling caste usually gradually assimilate with the conquered population to become one people.
However, in India this never happened. Some quality or characteristic about the tribal or aboriginal population – not necessarily the ‘Dravidians’, mind you, seems to have repulsed the Aryans to an exceeding degree.
My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.Replies: @BenKenobi
Wait until the neighbourhood tips over!
My girlfriend works in architecture here, and has an inside look at Vancouver real estate. She says it’s typical for Indians to tear down an old White home that uses 40% of lot coverage to rebuild a house at 90% so they can pack ’em in.
Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?
I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.Replies: @rec1man, @AnotherDad
Lot, Rec1Man explained what he meant there–basically exogamous cousin marriage.
A few thoughts on the sociology:
Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother’s son\brother’s daughter)–ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq–tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes–whose world we’d messed up–in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.
In contrast the South Indians’ exogamous (brother’s daughter\mother’s son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides–and dowry, for communities with it–back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste “community”. (Rec1man doesn’t mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother’s-daughter to mother’s-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get “settled” in their career before marriage.)
Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular “community” (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church’s push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states–trust at scale.
The various pretty and pale Indian models I have seen all have faces that look to me distinctly non-European (and non-Latina.) Pale Indians and pale Iranians look about the same to me however. Their skin and eye coloring certainly can overlap a little with Southern Europe, but not at all the facial features.
A few thoughts on the sociology:Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother's son\brother's daughter)--ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq--tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes--whose world we'd messed up--in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.In contrast the South Indians' exogamous (brother's daughter\mother's son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides--and dowry, for communities with it--back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste "community". (Rec1man doesn't mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother's-daughter to mother's-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get "settled" in their career before marriage.) Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular "community" (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church's push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states--trust at scale.Replies: @Steve Sailer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_and_cross_cousins
The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance - because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.
Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.
I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I've finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.Replies: @Keith Vaz, @Numinous
“Appearance… not important.” For real, South Asians aren’t the prettiest. Must be why all the ones I come across (m&f) wanna grab a hot White partner.
Not that I'm claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.
I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.Replies: @BB753
The commenters here are full of fascinating facts and insights. One of the great things about this place is – TA-DAAA ! – the sheer diversity of the commenters – and in terms of understanding the increasingly globalised world we live in, that’s a great asset.
I don’t pretend to understand all the ins and outs of the caste system, but here are a few links from my browser history
The Caste System of India – A Very Rudimentary Summary – but it’s still pretty complex
http://www.umsl.edu/~naumannj/Geography%201001%20articles/ch%207%20language%20&%20religion%20in%20culture/The%20Caste%20System%20of%20India.doc
Arundhati Roy – I think we can say she’s agin’ it.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/indias-shame
Why some Indians cling to their caste status even if it’s lowly
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/24/the-tragic-truth-about-indias-caste-syst
Short and for Westerners doing business in India
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/indias-caste-system.html
His Majesty’s List Of Scheduled Castes as of 1936
https://web.archive.org/web/20160322162629/http://socialjustice.nic.in/pdf/SClist-200215.pdf
The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950
https://web.archive.org/web/20151206005703/http://www.socialjustice.nic.in/sclist.php
Great big alphabetical list of castes with weblinks for most of them
http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/CasteFinal.htm
As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus
Several leaders of BJP are backward castes - including governors and chief ministers
*Kalyan Singh - backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 - now governor of Indian state
*Uma Bharati - backward caste - used as rabble rouser vs muslims
*Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste - chief minister of Madhya Pradesh
*Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal - Chief minister of AssamReplies: @Yak-15
How accurate was the British system of Martial Races of India?
Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )
Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins
When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially
Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
These puppets supported the british
All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
- such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc
and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
removed from the army
That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with
There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army
and several non-martial castes - such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british - The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
and had no martial history at all - now are 75% of the Pakistan army
And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them
Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army
The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue
--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire#/media/File:India1760_1905.jpg
This is the map of India @ 1760
The big yellow swath in the middle is the
Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british
The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,
Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british
--
Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory
each such martial race has its own regiment
Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry
Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment
Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test
Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota
*Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
over their loyalty
So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir
*There is a muslim regiment - JAKLI - Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian armyReplies: @Yak-15
The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance - because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.
Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.
I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I've finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.Replies: @Keith Vaz, @Numinous
No. Eugenics is what the Spartans (or Spartiates) practised. Arranged marriage is just arranged marriage, or more accurately facilitated marriage in today’s world. The goal is to get every youth married to someone within their caste, and unless there is something seriously wrong with them, most Indians do get married. Finding a match is not a Darwinian “race to the top”. In a traditional arrangement, as soon as a half-decent match is found, both families put significant pressure on the prospective bride and groom to get hitched. There’s nothing eugenic about this, but it does preserve caste cohesion.
All we can say is that Indians aren't selected for looks or health as things are.
In the course of history the invaders or conquerors or whatever, once they have established themselves as a ruling caste usually gradually assimilate with the conquered population to become one people.
However, in India this never happened. Some quality or characteristic about the tribal or aboriginal population - not necessarily the 'Dravidians', mind you, seems to have repulsed the Aryans to an exceeding degree.Replies: @Numinous
And what may those be? References?
Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP
http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/udit-rajFB.jpg
and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri - Upper caste Punjabi merchant
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html
“I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.
--
http://im.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/27nlook.jpg
The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife - he is bigamist,
he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her
--
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01771/28FR-SRINIDHI_CHID_1771015g.jpg
This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician
--
http://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/nirnayam-movie-audio-launch/nirnayam_movie_audio_launch_photos_stills_412e7e6.jpg
This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin
the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )
---
http://www.reshareit.com/wp-content/uploads/Jayalalitha-e1412767219145.jpg
http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/jayalalithalifeinpics/f.jpg
This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu
She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the postReplies: @biz, @BB753
money: chix dig it
I may be missing the point, but let’s start with the standard definition of a hymn “noun. a religious song or poem, typically of praise to God or a god”
There are two Old Norse Eddas;
– The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
– The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)
Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that’s a pretty striking similarity.
Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in “Summoning The Gods”.
Not that I REALLY want to know, but what the hell is “ally-ism”?
Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP
http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/udit-rajFB.jpg
and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri - Upper caste Punjabi merchant
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html
“I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.
--
http://im.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/27nlook.jpg
The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife - he is bigamist,
he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her
--
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01771/28FR-SRINIDHI_CHID_1771015g.jpg
This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician
--
http://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/nirnayam-movie-audio-launch/nirnayam_movie_audio_launch_photos_stills_412e7e6.jpg
This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin
the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )
---
http://www.reshareit.com/wp-content/uploads/Jayalalitha-e1412767219145.jpg
http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/jayalalithalifeinpics/f.jpg
This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu
She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the postReplies: @biz, @BB753
Interesting! Are these brahmin women who marry beneath them shunned by their family and/or caste?
Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.
Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI
Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI
Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI
So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture - and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood - whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi
There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians
Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
About 500 years ago, her great-great--- grandfather was the emperor of South India
and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India
--
http://images.desimartini.com/media/uploads/hema_malini_young_photos-1.jpg
This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
--
This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4dj08qi6PbM/VYUHMWXFbmI/AAAAAAAACeQ/BOgYrDPenEc/s1600/7f5c3608e3ab.jpg
--
This is Shobitha Dhulipala
a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clza946UYAIbVHM.jpg
--
This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
She looks like Irina Shayk
http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/762598-DeepikaPadukoneMeasurementsHeightWeightBraSizeAgeWikicopy-1410788958-760-640x480.jpg
---
This is Gauri Pandit - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.cinegoer.net/telugu-cinema/gallery/exclusive/gowripandit2/gowri-pandit-3-2.jpg
--
Prachi Desai - Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/p/prachi-desai/2014/09-prachi-desai-hd-picture.jpg
--
Sandeepa Dhar - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/s/sandeepa-dhar/2015/16-sandeepa-dhar-hd-picture.jpg
---
In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed
--
The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
when they are of marriageable ageReplies: @BB753
Well, arranged marriages are eugenic provided not everybody with a pulse marries, as you mention. Or if there are some other ways to cull out the bad mutations, such as high infant mortality or even infanticide like in Sparta ( if that’s what you meant).
All we can say is that Indians aren’t selected for looks or health as things are.
- The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
- The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that's a pretty striking similarity.Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in "Summoning The Gods".Replies: @SPMoore8
There was an argument linking the Eddas and the Vedas; I am skeptical of that. As far as I know, the Eddas are mostly narratives, whereas the Vedic Hymns are more similar to (say) our Psalms. There may be an etymological link between Edda=Veda, but in terms of content I don’t think there’s any linkage at all. That was my comment/query.
Victorian conservative James Fitzjames Stephen, in his little-read “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity,” discussing the ‘progression’ of European society from bonds of status to those of contract, commented thusly:
I disagree. Indian men may be ugly but Indian women are prettier than white women. Hollywood makes white women seem very attractive, but the reality is that most young white women look abhorrent without makeup. Their skin is never of an even tone, they’re tall and muscular. They do have great hair and teeth and low body fat, I’ll give them that. A lot of non white men still try to get with white girls but I think a lot of that is just situational, owing to the status of whites as the dominant group in America.
Not that I’m claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.
I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.
Just read Anthrogenica, Euro genes, Forum Biodiversity etc.
How come Gujarati Brahmin are less accomplished than Tamil Brahmin?
India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.
Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?
Pancha Gouda - Northern Stream - Kashmiri, Hindi, Bengali, Orissa Brahmins
and
Pancha Dravida - Southern Stream - Gujurati, Maharashtrian, Tamil, Telugu and Karnatak Brahmins
Thats the historical textual link
DNA seems to show that much of the source population of Tamil Brahmins is from Gujurat
The only reason for the gap, I can think of is this - In regions under muslim rule, most of the brahmin elite got massacred - and Gujurati Brahmins were affected by this and Tamil Brahmins escaped most of it
Vicious and hateful? “Vicious” comes from “vice”: there is no vice involved in keeping a superior race in charge of inferior ones.
“Hateful”? To you maybe, but not to those who have successfully run India, a great civilisation, for thousands of years by keeping the best in charge of the worst.
This is what civilisation is all about; that it happens to put the lighter over the darker every time is just Nature having its say.
Cry about it all you like, but it will never change.
Not that I'm claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.
I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.Replies: @BB753
It depends on what kind of white women, just as its probably unfair to paint all Indian women with a broad brush. Have you ever met Ukrainian or Romanian women? Now, if by ugly white women you refer to English women, you might have a point.
-G.K. Chesterton
Arranged marriage would be a vast improvement over the present state of affairs.
Thanks for the correction Steve. I hadn’t realized Rec1man’s usage was standard issue.
Cross and parallel are definitely better descriptors than my exo\ednogamous descriptors–which i picked up when Iraq’s Sunni tribes were in the news–as the level of endogamy in both cases is the same. I think the exo\endo does get at the sociology of it a bit. Sort of exo-familial and endo-familial is my key point.
It’s interesting stuff. I’m glad Christianity pushed exogamy … it is–or at least was–a better world.
As the great Howie Carr would say, “Not Guilty!”
Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.Replies: @rec1man
In the latest dna study
Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI
Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI
Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI
So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture – and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood – whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi
There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians
Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
About 500 years ago, her great-great— grandfather was the emperor of South India
and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India
—
This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
—
This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
—
This is Shobitha Dhulipala
a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
—
This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
She looks like Irina Shayk
—
This is Gauri Pandit – Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
—
Prachi Desai – Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )
—
Sandeepa Dhar – Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
—
In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed
—
The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
when they are of marriageable age
What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?Replies: @rec1man
India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.
Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?Replies: @rec1man
There are 2 main divisions of Brahmins
Pancha Gouda – Northern Stream – Kashmiri, Hindi, Bengali, Orissa Brahmins
and
Pancha Dravida – Southern Stream – Gujurati, Maharashtrian, Tamil, Telugu and Karnatak Brahmins
Thats the historical textual link
DNA seems to show that much of the source population of Tamil Brahmins is from Gujurat
The only reason for the gap, I can think of is this – In regions under muslim rule, most of the brahmin elite got massacred – and Gujurati Brahmins were affected by this and Tamil Brahmins escaped most of it
The british conquered India, with the help of low caste sepoys, often untouchables
Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )
Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins
When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially
Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
These puppets supported the british
All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
– such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc
and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
removed from the army
That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with
There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army
and several non-martial castes – such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british – The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
and had no martial history at all – now are 75% of the Pakistan army
And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them
Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army
The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue
—
This is the map of India @ 1760
The big yellow swath in the middle is the
Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british
The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,
Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british
—
Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory
each such martial race has its own regiment
Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry
Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment
Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test
Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota
*Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
over their loyalty
So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir
*There is a muslim regiment – JAKLI – Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian army
Urvashi Rautela, Punjabi Upper Caste Rajput ( Kshatriya )
—
The woman on the left is Deepika Padukone ( Karnataka – South Indian – Brahmin )
and on the right Irina Shayk
Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI
Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI
Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI
So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture - and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood - whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi
There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians
Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
About 500 years ago, her great-great--- grandfather was the emperor of South India
and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India
--
http://images.desimartini.com/media/uploads/hema_malini_young_photos-1.jpg
This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
--
This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4dj08qi6PbM/VYUHMWXFbmI/AAAAAAAACeQ/BOgYrDPenEc/s1600/7f5c3608e3ab.jpg
--
This is Shobitha Dhulipala
a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clza946UYAIbVHM.jpg
--
This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
She looks like Irina Shayk
http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/762598-DeepikaPadukoneMeasurementsHeightWeightBraSizeAgeWikicopy-1410788958-760-640x480.jpg
---
This is Gauri Pandit - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.cinegoer.net/telugu-cinema/gallery/exclusive/gowripandit2/gowri-pandit-3-2.jpg
--
Prachi Desai - Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/p/prachi-desai/2014/09-prachi-desai-hd-picture.jpg
--
Sandeepa Dhar - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )
http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/s/sandeepa-dhar/2015/16-sandeepa-dhar-hd-picture.jpg
---
In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed
--
The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
when they are of marriageable ageReplies: @BB753
Thanks for your replies! So what caste are these children of low caste father and upper caste mother allocated to? Their father’s?
What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?
who cant get an upper caste wife,
are allowed to marry a lower caste woman, and the children belong to the fathers caste
So a brahmin man with lower caste woman, his children will be considered brahmin
But, because lower caste women are ugly ( all bollywood stars are upper caste ),
the children wont look so good, and will have troubles getting an arranged marriage
Each year, 25000 ugly , low caste , bangladeshi muslim women are sold as wives to
poor upper caste North Indian men ( who cant get upper caste wife )
These days, there is a fair amount of inter-caste marriages , in urban areas, between brahmins and other upper castes -
and since both sides are from 'Aryan' castes, the kids can pass in the caste of both parents
and both paternal and maternal castes will accept them into their caste- so the kids can choose which caste they want to marry into
Historically whenever a non-hindu society assimilates into Hinduism they import brahmin men and in the initial wave, there will be few brahmin women imported , and some of these brahmin migrants marry some local non-Aryan women to them - so there are yellow skin ( oriental ) brahmins in places like Thailand and North-east India and Nepal - and mainstream hindus accept them as brahmins - Thailand was part of Hindu Khmer empire, before the invasion of the Thai in 1300 AD
Historically, marriage between Upper caste woman and lower caste man, is - was banned - will cause riots / honor killings in rural areas - these days a rich lower caste man, may get a greedy higher caste wife, but the kids will be into the lower caste
Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )
Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins
When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially
Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
These puppets supported the british
All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
- such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc
and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
removed from the army
That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with
There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army
and several non-martial castes - such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british - The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
and had no martial history at all - now are 75% of the Pakistan army
And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them
Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army
The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue
--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire#/media/File:India1760_1905.jpg
This is the map of India @ 1760
The big yellow swath in the middle is the
Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british
The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,
Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british
--
Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory
each such martial race has its own regiment
Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry
Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment
Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test
Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota
*Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
over their loyalty
So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir
*There is a muslim regiment - JAKLI - Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian armyReplies: @Yak-15
Very interesting. Thanks!
What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?Replies: @rec1man
Historically, as a last resort, Upper caste men, ( poor, loser etc ),
who cant get an upper caste wife,
are allowed to marry a lower caste woman, and the children belong to the fathers caste
So a brahmin man with lower caste woman, his children will be considered brahmin
But, because lower caste women are ugly ( all bollywood stars are upper caste ),
the children wont look so good, and will have troubles getting an arranged marriage
Each year, 25000 ugly , low caste , bangladeshi muslim women are sold as wives to
poor upper caste North Indian men ( who cant get upper caste wife )
These days, there is a fair amount of inter-caste marriages , in urban areas, between brahmins and other upper castes –
and since both sides are from ‘Aryan’ castes, the kids can pass in the caste of both parents
and both paternal and maternal castes will accept them into their caste- so the kids can choose which caste they want to marry into
Historically whenever a non-hindu society assimilates into Hinduism they import brahmin men and in the initial wave, there will be few brahmin women imported , and some of these brahmin migrants marry some local non-Aryan women to them – so there are yellow skin ( oriental ) brahmins in places like Thailand and North-east India and Nepal – and mainstream hindus accept them as brahmins – Thailand was part of Hindu Khmer empire, before the invasion of the Thai in 1300 AD
Historically, marriage between Upper caste woman and lower caste man, is – was banned – will cause riots / honor killings in rural areas – these days a rich lower caste man, may get a greedy higher caste wife, but the kids will be into the lower caste
https://www.google.com/search?q=bollywood+hollywood+look+alike+celebs&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTy8T--dXNAhVQlpAKHRogDi0Q_AUIBigB
This has pictures of hollywood stars and their bollywood look-alikes
Minisha Lamba, Upper caste Punjabi merchant
Sunny Leone – former US porn star, now in bollywood
Upper caste punjabi
rec1man, thanks again for the information. But why not show us pictures of ordinary upper caste Indians who are not in Bollywood?
brahmin brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=brahmin+brides&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40eDHpNbNAhWGG5AKHS1VA7QQ_AUIBygC
Jat brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpopDepNbNAhUJEpAKHUYJDREQ_AUICCgD
Sikh brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif9f6XpdbNAhWl5oMKHYFxBBgQ_AUIBigB
Rajput brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=rajput+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_KiqpdbNAhVM6oMKHciBAjoQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gq4I4LXTTGNy_M%3A
Jain brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jain+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjRiceSptbNAhXF7CYKHXIrA1kQ_AUIBygC
Khatri brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=khatri+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwifp4a2ptbNAhUG5CYKHd3WBpYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#Replies: @BB753
Google Image search –
brahmin brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=brahmin+brides&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40eDHpNbNAhWGG5AKHS1VA7QQ_AUIBygC
Jat brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpopDepNbNAhUJEpAKHUYJDREQ_AUICCgD
Sikh brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif9f6XpdbNAhWl5oMKHYFxBBgQ_AUIBigB
Rajput brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=rajput+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_KiqpdbNAhVM6oMKHciBAjoQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gq4I4LXTTGNy_M%3A
Jain brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jain+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjRiceSptbNAhXF7CYKHXIrA1kQ_AUIBygC
Khatri brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=khatri+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwifp4a2ptbNAhUG5CYKHd3WBpYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#
brahmin brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=brahmin+brides&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40eDHpNbNAhWGG5AKHS1VA7QQ_AUIBygC
Jat brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpopDepNbNAhUJEpAKHUYJDREQ_AUICCgD
Sikh brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif9f6XpdbNAhWl5oMKHYFxBBgQ_AUIBigB
Rajput brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=rajput+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_KiqpdbNAhVM6oMKHciBAjoQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gq4I4LXTTGNy_M%3A
Jain brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=jain+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjRiceSptbNAhXF7CYKHXIrA1kQ_AUIBygC
Khatri brides
https://www.google.com/search?q=khatri+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwifp4a2ptbNAhUG5CYKHd3WBpYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#Replies: @BB753
That’s a bride overdose.. Are you ready to tie the knot, rec1man?