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Hinduism.

The descendants of the conquerors from the North are still more or less on top after several thousand years.

In a 2014 review in Taki’s Magazine of economic historian Gregory Clark’s book on surname analysis, The Son Also Rises: Surnames and the History of Social Mobility, I wrote:

As Clark documents, there appears to be much less social mobility than has been assumed … Strikingly, Clark finds that class persistence appears to be around 0.75 [i.e., social mobility ~ 0.25] not only throughout British and American history, but all over the world, including Japan and welfare state Sweden. Heck, in China, Chairman Mao’s Cultural Revolution didn’t put much of a long-term dent in which surnames are high-class. …

The one exception to the Law of Social Mobility Clark has found is caste-ridden India, where Clark finds an “overall rate of social mobility close to zero. India seems to be a uniquely immobile society.”

And yet …

From Buzzfeed:

Progressive Millennial Indians, Let’s Talk About Why We Never Talk About Caste

While we share memes and hashtags about feminism, colourism, veganism, ally-ism and more, there’s an omnipresent injustice we enforce every day and don’t know how to recognise.

posted on Jun. 23, 2016, at 3:02 a.m.
by Ravikant Kisana
BuzzFeed Contributor, India

 
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  1. The current, popular Indian Prime Minister Modi is from a designated ‘backward’ class (‘OBC’) http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/the-office-of-prime-minister-a-largely-north-indian-upper-caste-hindu-affair-114050700846_1.html

    And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.

    • Replies: @SteveM
    Re: "And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    The irony is that the resultant American STEM workers displaced by lower caste rather than upper cast Indian H-1Bs will be completely indifferent to the sociological nuance since they will be kicked the curb just the same.

    P.S. In a perverse context, C-Suite Cronies in many U.S. tech companies consider American citizen technologists to be "lower caste". Those over 40 especially are "untouchables". Now there's a "reactionary ideology".

    Maybe the U.S. government should institute an affirmative action program for its own citizens.

    , @Jimi
    The current PM is actually from an affluent caste that has obtained "OBC" status through lobbying.

    OBC stands for "Other Backwards Caste" a term defined in the Indian Constitution as a caste that isn't untouchables or tribal but still deserve affirmative action for historic discrimination.

    OBC castes qualify for special government programs and benefit from affirmative action programs. Many Hindu castes actually lobby to obtain OBC status. And riots have broken out over denial of such status. The Brahmins and aristocratic castes cannot plausibly claim OBC status. But there are a huge slew of caste in between that try to qualify for OBC status.
  2. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The “C” word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other “C” word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as “light skinned.” The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn’t see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    isn´t the old word for caste "varna" just another word for color?
    , @Tarl Cabot
    They are the same word. Sanskrit for caste is "varna", which means color. Guess who's on top?
    , @Kyle a
    If your waiting for a kumbaya moment don't hold your breath. Nature does t care for them.
    , @neon2
    Vicious and hateful? "Vicious" comes from "vice": there is no vice involved in keeping a superior race in charge of inferior ones.
    "Hateful"? To you maybe, but not to those who have successfully run India, a great civilisation, for thousands of years by keeping the best in charge of the worst.
    This is what civilisation is all about; that it happens to put the lighter over the darker every time is just Nature having its say.
    Cry about it all you like, but it will never change.
  3. What about BO?

  4. • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Indian/Paki women seem to be natural feminists.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.html

    In addition Indian chicks in america also carry the same attitude that DC chicks have. I'm educated, I'm not a sexual being, my pride is in having 2 degrees, and I want a wealthy educated man to spend money on me. In addition Indian chicks in the USA can be very cocky with guys or tease them for pursuing sex. Another no no of feminimity.
     

    From what I've seen (mind you this is ONLY professional y dealing with them as customers) they're VERY high maintenance and most seem to quickly westernize and jump on the "lets be fat and wear sweatpants" bandwagon.
     

    They're wack and are usually ugly.
     

    Indian girls are like American girls on steroids. No thanks.
     

    Sometimes on a first date, after I've already made out with a girl, I'll stop her mid-walk, grab her and kiss briefly. The only girl who cuntily laughed at this was Indian. "What, you wanted to just kiss me again" or something to that effect. She was pretty, and very thin, but I never contacted her again.
     

    Another problem, at least in my area, is that good looking Indian women are rare as fuck. I mean, every now and then there will be one where you're like, holy shit she's banging, but they're few and far between, and the rest are ugly.

    I'd be interested to see what you guys have noticed, because as far as I've noticed, Indian women by and large are just not good looking.
     


    Indian women's personality issues are just as bad if not worse than their lacking in the good looks department.
     

    they tend to chub up pretty easily. Additionally, they love white guys more than other races from what I've seen.
     

    Meanwhile brown girls are just like Jewish and Persian girls in that they're more status seeking and materialistic except they're not as attractive (that's not me being biased against other brown people, everybody here agrees that brown girls on the whole aren't hot) which makes the attitudes they sport hard to put up with.
     

    A lot of the hot brown girls I know who are born and raised in the West LOVE acting ghetto when in reality they're far from it. They think they are African American. Anyway they are really Westernized and predominately hang out with other wannabe ghetto brown girls or wannabe ghetto white girls. They grow out of that after they finish university. Brown girls very much prefer dating other brown guys and at least at my age don't seem to care whether or not they're Indian or Sri Lankan or Pakistani. They get a fuckload of attention from pathetic hordes of ultra beta and needy brown guys and as such develop gigantic egos. They get passed around by the few player brown guys and wannabe ghetto white guys (mainly Italian and Greek in my neck of the woods) all the while pretending to be ultra innocent to all their brown male friends. If they knew how slutty some of the girls they idolate so much are they would probably kill themselves. They put them on the pedestal THAT much.
     
  5. @DZK
    The current, popular Indian Prime Minister Modi is from a designated 'backward' class ('OBC') http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/the-office-of-prime-minister-a-largely-north-indian-upper-caste-hindu-affair-114050700846_1.html

    And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.

    Re: “And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    The irony is that the resultant American STEM workers displaced by lower caste rather than upper cast Indian H-1Bs will be completely indifferent to the sociological nuance since they will be kicked the curb just the same.

    P.S. In a perverse context, C-Suite Cronies in many U.S. tech companies consider American citizen technologists to be “lower caste”. Those over 40 especially are “untouchables”. Now there’s a “reactionary ideology”.

    Maybe the U.S. government should institute an affirmative action program for its own citizens.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    My IT staff had a lot of interaction with H1-B people at various companies and contractors and found them to be almost uniformly unqualified. The vendors saved some personnel expense and induced clients to shop around for replacements. The vendor churn and service degradation were imposed costs that clients face daily. That is an example of the crapification of previously rational processes that is a time tax on people. Your time is equity and someone is plotting to dilute and monetize it.
    , @Bastion
    Very recently I was enlightened by an Indian coworker on the subject of backward castes. "Only in India do people strive to be backward". He was obviously very indignant about his classmates who were several generations from "backward" status and who still benefit from their disadvantage. Just this year, there were riots near Delhi as a clan of Indians lobbied for "backward" status and set-asides. This won't last.
  6. About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The “C” word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other “C” word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as “light skinned.”

    I used to have a job gathering intelligence about the near-daily sectarian slaughters in the mountainous area of Kashmir/Pakistan/Afghanistan, and one term I often ran across was “wheat complexion.” The killers were invariably described as having such a skin tone (maybe I’m exaggerating, but that’s how it seemed at the time).

    I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don’t know exactly who would be “wheat.” Could one call a typical Pushtoon a “wheat man”?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    There are 4 types of Indian skin colors

    Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India

    Black , for the dravidians

    nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri

    Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )

    and there are shades of brown

    Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color
    , @Spmoore8
    I seem to recall that "wheat" was the skin color stated for the San Berdoo killer on his dating site. So I'm guessing pancake brown.
  7. How does cousin marriage factor into the equation? Is it practiced more or less frequently at the high caste level?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    All hindus avoid marrying within same paternal clade - even 50 generations out

    It is called Gothra, sort of like surname

    All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra

    Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter

    Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousins
  8. @Anon
    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The "C" word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other "C" word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as "light skinned." The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn't see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.

    isn´t the old word for caste “varna” just another word for color?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    Varna means color,

    but the way varna was assigned was as follows

    White for brahmins

    Red for kshatriya etc etc

    obviously there are no red-skin Indians

    IMHO, red referred to their blood letting duty of warriors

    and white referred more to ritual purity than actual skin color
  9. @Anon
    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The "C" word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other "C" word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as "light skinned." The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn't see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.

    They are the same word. Sanskrit for caste is “varna”, which means color. Guess who’s on top?

  10. Depends upon what you mean by in practice,and what constitutes an ideology. There are probably pygmy tribes that have stayed the same since the stone age, or whenever.

  11. OT: Anyone see this author Sebastian Junger on PBS Newshour? He’s got a book out called Tribe about community..can’t even define tribe – no reference to extended family or race..jeesh. Does he have any idea where the aboriginal tribes came from?

    He said our tribes need to be more diverse. Gah.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    I actually, know him. He's complex, and a very good guy. He is extremely intense and, in my opinion, may not "present well" on TV. His books are good. When he was a graduate student in the mid 80's he wrote a very good book which is unlike any of his "War" books (or movie) of the last 10 or so years, "The Perfect Storm." Anyway, Junger is a free spirit, beholden to no ideological camp. He is more a cultural anthropologist in his approach to the idea of "tribe." He goes into the philosophy of the idea of "tribe," not origin...does that make sense?
  12. @Anon
    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The "C" word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other "C" word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as "light skinned." The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn't see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.

    If your waiting for a kumbaya moment don’t hold your breath. Nature does t care for them.

  13. @anony-mouse
    http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/seattle-elects-first-socialist-in-indian-american-kshama-sawant-113111901019_1.html

    Indian/Paki women seem to be natural feminists.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.html

    In addition Indian chicks in america also carry the same attitude that DC chicks have. I’m educated, I’m not a sexual being, my pride is in having 2 degrees, and I want a wealthy educated man to spend money on me. In addition Indian chicks in the USA can be very cocky with guys or tease them for pursuing sex. Another no no of feminimity.

    From what I’ve seen (mind you this is ONLY professional y dealing with them as customers) they’re VERY high maintenance and most seem to quickly westernize and jump on the “lets be fat and wear sweatpants” bandwagon.

    They’re wack and are usually ugly.

    Indian girls are like American girls on steroids. No thanks.

    Sometimes on a first date, after I’ve already made out with a girl, I’ll stop her mid-walk, grab her and kiss briefly. The only girl who cuntily laughed at this was Indian. “What, you wanted to just kiss me again” or something to that effect. She was pretty, and very thin, but I never contacted her again.

    Another problem, at least in my area, is that good looking Indian women are rare as fuck. I mean, every now and then there will be one where you’re like, holy shit she’s banging, but they’re few and far between, and the rest are ugly.

    I’d be interested to see what you guys have noticed, because as far as I’ve noticed, Indian women by and large are just not good looking.

    Indian women’s personality issues are just as bad if not worse than their lacking in the good looks department.

    they tend to chub up pretty easily. Additionally, they love white guys more than other races from what I’ve seen.

    Meanwhile brown girls are just like Jewish and Persian girls in that they’re more status seeking and materialistic except they’re not as attractive (that’s not me being biased against other brown people, everybody here agrees that brown girls on the whole aren’t hot) which makes the attitudes they sport hard to put up with.

    A lot of the hot brown girls I know who are born and raised in the West LOVE acting ghetto when in reality they’re far from it. They think they are African American. Anyway they are really Westernized and predominately hang out with other wannabe ghetto brown girls or wannabe ghetto white girls. They grow out of that after they finish university. Brown girls very much prefer dating other brown guys and at least at my age don’t seem to care whether or not they’re Indian or Sri Lankan or Pakistani. They get a fuckload of attention from pathetic hordes of ultra beta and needy brown guys and as such develop gigantic egos. They get passed around by the few player brown guys and wannabe ghetto white guys (mainly Italian and Greek in my neck of the woods) all the while pretending to be ultra innocent to all their brown male friends. If they knew how slutty some of the girls they idolate so much are they would probably kill themselves. They put them on the pedestal THAT much.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Indian girls tend not to be good looking but you're correct that several are very good looking. Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn't look like she is from South Asia but Latin America. So maybe discrimination along lines of skin tone is quite rational. If you are Indian and want attractive children, find a fair mate.
  14. @Bill P

    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The “C” word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other “C” word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as “light skinned.”
     
    I used to have a job gathering intelligence about the near-daily sectarian slaughters in the mountainous area of Kashmir/Pakistan/Afghanistan, and one term I often ran across was "wheat complexion." The killers were invariably described as having such a skin tone (maybe I'm exaggerating, but that's how it seemed at the time).

    I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don't know exactly who would be "wheat." Could one call a typical Pushtoon a "wheat man"?

    There are 4 types of Indian skin colors

    Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India

    Black , for the dravidians

    nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri

    Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )

    and there are shades of brown

    Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color

    • Replies: @SteveM
    Re: "Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color"


    Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?
    , @Anon

    Black , for the dravidians

     

    This is nonsense. My entire family are Dravidians and they vary from pale skin to dark brown. You'll find plenty of black-skinned Dravidians, but you'll also find plenty of black-skinned Northerners. Dravidian is a linguistic grouping, not unlike your Hispanics.
  15. @Erik Sieven
    isn´t the old word for caste "varna" just another word for color?

    Varna means color,

    but the way varna was assigned was as follows

    White for brahmins

    Red for kshatriya etc etc

    obviously there are no red-skin Indians

    IMHO, red referred to their blood letting duty of warriors

    and white referred more to ritual purity than actual skin color

  16. @Yak-15
    How does cousin marriage factor into the equation? Is it practiced more or less frequently at the high caste level?

    All hindus avoid marrying within same paternal clade – even 50 generations out

    It is called Gothra, sort of like surname

    All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra – never within same gothra

    Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter

    Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousins

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    I am inclined to believe this but do you have any empirical data?
    , @Lot

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
     
    What does this mean?

    Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?

    I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.
  17. @rec1man
    There are 4 types of Indian skin colors

    Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India

    Black , for the dravidians

    nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri

    Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )

    and there are shades of brown

    Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color

    Re: “Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color”

    Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    Padma Lakshmi color is the most common upper caste color, and it is called wheatish
  18. Wasn’t there a mid-1960’s hit song. . . “Caste Your Fate To The Wind”?

    All of the Left-lib-prog Gandhi worshippers go suddenly speechless when I tell them that, for all his phony altruism-equality schtick, Gandhi never said a word about, let alone against, India’s caste system.

    One my favorite quotes about Gandhi:

    “You can’t imagine what it costs to keep Gandhi in poverty.” – Jawaharlal Nehru

  19. @DZK
    The current, popular Indian Prime Minister Modi is from a designated 'backward' class ('OBC') http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/the-office-of-prime-minister-a-largely-north-indian-upper-caste-hindu-affair-114050700846_1.html

    And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    Not sure if this very low rate of mobility will persist for much longer.

    The current PM is actually from an affluent caste that has obtained “OBC” status through lobbying.

    OBC stands for “Other Backwards Caste” a term defined in the Indian Constitution as a caste that isn’t untouchables or tribal but still deserve affirmative action for historic discrimination.

    OBC castes qualify for special government programs and benefit from affirmative action programs. Many Hindu castes actually lobby to obtain OBC status. And riots have broken out over denial of such status. The Brahmins and aristocratic castes cannot plausibly claim OBC status. But there are a huge slew of caste in between that try to qualify for OBC status.

  20. Lots of successful Dalit and Lower caste men , get themselves trophy Brahmin and Upper caste wives – like how Tiger Woods collects trophy blondes

    Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP

    and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri – Upper caste Punjabi merchant

    http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html

    “I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.

    The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
    The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife – he is bigamist,
    he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her

    This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
    She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician

    This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin

    the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
    and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
    ( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )

    This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
    She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
    she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu

    She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
    film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the post

    • Replies: @biz
    money: chix dig it
    , @BB753
    Interesting! Are these brahmin women who marry beneath them shunned by their family and/or caste?
    Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.
  21. @SteveM
    Re: "Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color"


    Does upper caste wheatish color imply gluten free wheatish?

    Padma Lakshmi color is the most common upper caste color, and it is called wheatish

  22. @rec1man
    All hindus avoid marrying within same paternal clade - even 50 generations out

    It is called Gothra, sort of like surname

    All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra

    Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter

    Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousins

    I am inclined to believe this but do you have any empirical data?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
  23. Ivy says:
    @SteveM
    Re: "And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    The irony is that the resultant American STEM workers displaced by lower caste rather than upper cast Indian H-1Bs will be completely indifferent to the sociological nuance since they will be kicked the curb just the same.

    P.S. In a perverse context, C-Suite Cronies in many U.S. tech companies consider American citizen technologists to be "lower caste". Those over 40 especially are "untouchables". Now there's a "reactionary ideology".

    Maybe the U.S. government should institute an affirmative action program for its own citizens.

    My IT staff had a lot of interaction with H1-B people at various companies and contractors and found them to be almost uniformly unqualified. The vendors saved some personnel expense and induced clients to shop around for replacements. The vendor churn and service degradation were imposed costs that clients face daily. That is an example of the crapification of previously rational processes that is a time tax on people. Your time is equity and someone is plotting to dilute and monetize it.

  24. But you’ll never lack for an Indian willing to lecture you on American racism.

  25. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The top 3 castes are all Aryan (with the ancient distinction being societal roles, not color).

    When it comes to Indian race, the correct term is Aryan or Indo-European, not Hindu. By definition, Hindu is the Aryan religion – of the holy (v)Eddas – and the holiest – and in fact only – symbol of Hinduism is the holy Swastika. The Laltika (red dot) is also common but not a symbol. Om is a syLLable, not a symbol.

    The bottom caste is not Aryan at all and is a different species of humans, aboriginal natives of India.

    There are about 500 million Aryans in contemporary India, around 200-300 separate Aryan tribes.

    There are also about 400 million Dravidians in India, who are entirely unrelated to Aryans racially and linguistically. They were the original inhabitants (and still are) of South India.

    I’m not sure about the Aryan nature of Tamil (ie Dravidian) Brahmins. The term doesn’t make any sense to me…anyone know for sure ?

    The rest is about a 100 million or so lower castes and about 100 million or so Oriental/Asian people.

    As for the Caste System, that is inherent in any Aryan religion. Norse Eddas (closely related) as well as possibly Greek also had severe stratification.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full.pdf

    This is the latest dna study

    In page 1596, the results are in graphic form

    In page 1597 in table format

    KSH = Khatri Sikh - Upper caste punjabi merchant, 98% ANI ( Aryan ) - most bollywood stars are Khatri - including Priyanka Chopra ( Quantico )

    GBR = Gujurati Brahmin, 88% ANI

    IYR = Iyer ( Tamil Brahmin ), 80% ANI

    WBR = West Bengal Brahmin, 77% ANI

    MRT = Maratha, peasant near Bombay, 58% ANI

    PLN = Pallan, ( Tamil Dalit Dravidian ) , 49% ANI

    These are all caste populations - the rest are minor forest tribals

    , @SPMoore8
    Some comments and questions about Indians:

    Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.

    Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more "democratic" than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.

    Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that's the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster's (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra's religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the "Abrahamic" faiths, i.e., something more "organic."

    I don't see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don't know of any Edda hymns.

    Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don't know how the classes lower than this, or the "untouchables", evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there's a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don't think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.

    The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the "Ur" IE symbol. However, that isn't correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.

    The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there's lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

  26. @Bill P

    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The “C” word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other “C” word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as “light skinned.”
     
    I used to have a job gathering intelligence about the near-daily sectarian slaughters in the mountainous area of Kashmir/Pakistan/Afghanistan, and one term I often ran across was "wheat complexion." The killers were invariably described as having such a skin tone (maybe I'm exaggerating, but that's how it seemed at the time).

    I came to be very familiar with that term, but to this day I don't know exactly who would be "wheat." Could one call a typical Pushtoon a "wheat man"?

    I seem to recall that “wheat” was the skin color stated for the San Berdoo killer on his dating site. So I’m guessing pancake brown.

  27. @Yak-15
    I am inclined to believe this but do you have any empirical data?
  28. One of the first things I noticed after moving to Vancouver was that all (most) of the White people I befriended man and woman alike, while your standard PC Canadian, would without prompting say:

    “I f’n hate brown people.” Humorously it was often prefaced by “I’m not racist but…”

    I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for “racism” against blacks.

    Try livin’ next to ’em. I certainly understood the browns’ reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    The Vancouver Indians are mostly Jat Sikh, an extremely violent caste
    , @Mike

    Try livin’ next to ‘em
     
    Buddy of mine has this huge house next door to his place. It went in and out of foreclosure a few times after 2008. Finally, an Indian buys the place. He moves his extended family into the house. There are cars everywhere, people coming and going at all times, etc.

    My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.
  29. @Anonymous
    The top 3 castes are all Aryan (with the ancient distinction being societal roles, not color).

    When it comes to Indian race, the correct term is Aryan or Indo-European, not Hindu. By definition, Hindu is the Aryan religion - of the holy (v)Eddas - and the holiest - and in fact only - symbol of Hinduism is the holy Swastika. The Laltika (red dot) is also common but not a symbol. Om is a syLLable, not a symbol.

    The bottom caste is not Aryan at all and is a different species of humans, aboriginal natives of India.

    There are about 500 million Aryans in contemporary India, around 200-300 separate Aryan tribes.

    There are also about 400 million Dravidians in India, who are entirely unrelated to Aryans racially and linguistically. They were the original inhabitants (and still are) of South India.

    I'm not sure about the Aryan nature of Tamil (ie Dravidian) Brahmins. The term doesn't make any sense to me...anyone know for sure ?

    The rest is about a 100 million or so lower castes and about 100 million or so Oriental/Asian people.

    As for the Caste System, that is inherent in any Aryan religion. Norse Eddas (closely related) as well as possibly Greek also had severe stratification.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full.pdf

    This is the latest dna study

    In page 1596, the results are in graphic form

    In page 1597 in table format

    KSH = Khatri Sikh – Upper caste punjabi merchant, 98% ANI ( Aryan ) – most bollywood stars are Khatri – including Priyanka Chopra ( Quantico )

    GBR = Gujurati Brahmin, 88% ANI

    IYR = Iyer ( Tamil Brahmin ), 80% ANI

    WBR = West Bengal Brahmin, 77% ANI

    MRT = Maratha, peasant near Bombay, 58% ANI

    PLN = Pallan, ( Tamil Dalit Dravidian ) , 49% ANI

    These are all caste populations – the rest are minor forest tribals

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How come Gujarati Brahmin are less accomplished than Tamil Brahmin?

    India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.

    Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?
  30. I think you can unpack a bunch of questions about this–attitudes, lack of discussion, etc.–by simple analogy to say James Traub and his “It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses”.

    Same demand that the system cater to them, same superiority complex, same expectation of right to rule.

    The one difference–in fairness–is that the upper caste Indians *are* the builders (or at least extenders from colonialism) of modern India and the only Indians of any proven competence–engineering, science, business, public administration. If they were kicked out of power it’s not clear what India would be like because the backward classes have never been educated and we don’t even really know how bad their genetic IQ is as there is actually quite a bit of direct material (inadequate nutrition) deprivation. India would almost certainly be an even bigger mess.

    In contrast, James Traub is merely a whiny overclass parasite. All European societies and America were built by the natives that James Traub despises and have proven track records of functioning just fine–and in fact being *quite pleasant*–places to live without his caste around.

  31. A couple of years ago I had an interesting abet brief conversation regarding American foreign policy with my physician from India, a relatively newly minted American citizen . . . things ended up quickly though when I mentioned in the course of this convo that India had a caste system. According to the doc, India has no caste system. Oh . . I said and changed the subject.

  32. @Anonymous
    The top 3 castes are all Aryan (with the ancient distinction being societal roles, not color).

    When it comes to Indian race, the correct term is Aryan or Indo-European, not Hindu. By definition, Hindu is the Aryan religion - of the holy (v)Eddas - and the holiest - and in fact only - symbol of Hinduism is the holy Swastika. The Laltika (red dot) is also common but not a symbol. Om is a syLLable, not a symbol.

    The bottom caste is not Aryan at all and is a different species of humans, aboriginal natives of India.

    There are about 500 million Aryans in contemporary India, around 200-300 separate Aryan tribes.

    There are also about 400 million Dravidians in India, who are entirely unrelated to Aryans racially and linguistically. They were the original inhabitants (and still are) of South India.

    I'm not sure about the Aryan nature of Tamil (ie Dravidian) Brahmins. The term doesn't make any sense to me...anyone know for sure ?

    The rest is about a 100 million or so lower castes and about 100 million or so Oriental/Asian people.

    As for the Caste System, that is inherent in any Aryan religion. Norse Eddas (closely related) as well as possibly Greek also had severe stratification.

    Some comments and questions about Indians:

    Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.

    Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more “democratic” than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.

    Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that’s the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster’s (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra’s religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the “Abrahamic” faiths, i.e., something more “organic.”

    I don’t see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don’t know of any Edda hymns.

    Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don’t know how the classes lower than this, or the “untouchables”, evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there’s a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don’t think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.

    The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the “Ur” IE symbol. However, that isn’t correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.

    The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there’s lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    Padma Lakshmi is a Tamil Speaking Brahmin

    Essentially brahmin migrants from Northern India, with about 20% Dravidian admixture

    There is no muslim admixture

    http://cdn.womensrunning.competitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/padma.jpg

    , @PiltdownMan

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.
     
    Indeed.

    There has been a huge amount of highly relevant DNA research that has been applied lately to the question of Indian social groups, ancestries and pre-historic migrations. The 19th century notion of an outside Northern Aryan (white) conquest of a local, immobile Southern Dravidian (dark) population seems to be quite inadequate to the task of describing what happened and who Indians are.

    Like you, I await the GNXP crowd to chip in, but until then my understanding is that there are basically two groups, ANI (loosely, Ancestral North Indians) and ASI (Ancestral South Indians) which possibly arrived about a thousand years apart a few thousand years ago, from elsewhere. They don't map neatly into any North-South geographic divide, and there is plenty of admixture.

    , @Gunnar von Cowtown

    I don’t see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don’t know of any Edda hymns.
     
    I may be missing the point, but let's start with the standard definition of a hymn "noun. a religious song or poem, typically of praise to God or a god"

    There are two Old Norse Eddas;
    - The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
    - The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)

    Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that's a pretty striking similarity.

    Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in "Summoning The Gods".

  33. @SteveM
    Re: "And there is a very strong affirmative action and quota system for such castes in universities/the job market.

    The irony is that the resultant American STEM workers displaced by lower caste rather than upper cast Indian H-1Bs will be completely indifferent to the sociological nuance since they will be kicked the curb just the same.

    P.S. In a perverse context, C-Suite Cronies in many U.S. tech companies consider American citizen technologists to be "lower caste". Those over 40 especially are "untouchables". Now there's a "reactionary ideology".

    Maybe the U.S. government should institute an affirmative action program for its own citizens.

    Very recently I was enlightened by an Indian coworker on the subject of backward castes. “Only in India do people strive to be backward”. He was obviously very indignant about his classmates who were several generations from “backward” status and who still benefit from their disadvantage. Just this year, there were riots near Delhi as a clan of Indians lobbied for “backward” status and set-asides. This won’t last.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    This won’t last.
     
    On the contrary this, i.e. large scale affirmative action for low castes and 'other backward castes', has been in place for more than six decades in India, with up to 50% of jobs and college slots in some situations being set aside for that purpose.

    The reactionary right in India has introduced the term "creamy layer" into political dialogue. The idea is that there be a both an income and a caste test for affirmative action quotas and reservations. The creamy layer, of course, is those who are now part of the mainstream middle and upper classes, but technically still from "backward" castes.

    A US analogy would be shutting down affirmative action benefits in college admissions to African Americans from comfortably off middle-class and professional families. They would be deemed to be the creamy layer that has already risen to the top of their cohort.

    Not surprisingly, the left in India is screaming murder at the idea and trying to discredit it vigorously.

    Incidentally, I love how Indian legal and constitutional terminology doesn't flinch at using the word "backward" in describing groups of people.
    , @Lot

    “Only in India do people strive to be backward”
     
    Nope, in America there is advantage to being a member of a victim group, and backwardness is evidence of victim-hood.

    Our most sacred people are therefore the most backwards and uncivilized people in the world, African Muslim immigrants. When a white kid brings a fake bomb to school he made by taking apart a $5 alarm clock, he is suspended for a few weeks if not expelled for a year. When a black muslim boy does so, he is showered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of free computers and college scholarships.

  34. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Progressive millennial Indians of the sort that browse and contribute to Buzzfeed are a vanishingly small minority in India; typically Westernized rich kids from the big cities with expensive educational credentials on their resumes and much wisdom derived from blogging. Not all that different from progressive millennials in America, the main difference being that in India, they have virtually no political power or ability to influence the grand narratives that drive electoral politics in the country. They are vastly outnumbered by the poor, and the poor are all segregated along various tribal interests, whether caste or religion or language. The only progressive party with a national scope they could join is the Congress, which is fading thanks to the incompetence of the Nehru-Gandhi family. Meanwhile, the reactionary right-wing BJP rises to power because of the Hindutva heartlands, and their stance on caste may charitably be compared to Reagan’s stance on race.

    It’s a different situation in America where progressive millennials wield not-inconsiderable cultural power, even if they don’t vote enough to have much political power.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @rec1man
    The goal of bjp is Hindu consolidation including dalits to create united front against muslims

    As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus

    Several leaders of BJP are backward castes - including governors and chief ministers

    *Kalyan Singh - backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 - now governor of Indian state

    *Uma Bharati - backward caste - used as rabble rouser vs muslims

    *Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste - chief minister of Madhya Pradesh

    *Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal - Chief minister of Assam
  35. @BenKenobi
    One of the first things I noticed after moving to Vancouver was that all (most) of the White people I befriended man and woman alike, while your standard PC Canadian, would without prompting say:

    "I f'n hate brown people." Humorously it was often prefaced by "I'm not racist but..."

    I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for "racism" against blacks.

    Try livin' next to 'em. I certainly understood the browns' reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.

    The Vancouver Indians are mostly Jat Sikh, an extremely violent caste

  36. @SPMoore8
    Some comments and questions about Indians:

    Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.

    Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more "democratic" than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.

    Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that's the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster's (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra's religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the "Abrahamic" faiths, i.e., something more "organic."

    I don't see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don't know of any Edda hymns.

    Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don't know how the classes lower than this, or the "untouchables", evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there's a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don't think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.

    The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the "Ur" IE symbol. However, that isn't correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.

    The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there's lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

    Padma Lakshmi is a Tamil Speaking Brahmin

    Essentially brahmin migrants from Northern India, with about 20% Dravidian admixture

    There is no muslim admixture

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    As the great Howie Carr would say, "Not Guilty!"
  37. @Bastion
    Very recently I was enlightened by an Indian coworker on the subject of backward castes. "Only in India do people strive to be backward". He was obviously very indignant about his classmates who were several generations from "backward" status and who still benefit from their disadvantage. Just this year, there were riots near Delhi as a clan of Indians lobbied for "backward" status and set-asides. This won't last.

    This won’t last.

    On the contrary this, i.e. large scale affirmative action for low castes and ‘other backward castes’, has been in place for more than six decades in India, with up to 50% of jobs and college slots in some situations being set aside for that purpose.

    The reactionary right in India has introduced the term “creamy layer” into political dialogue. The idea is that there be a both an income and a caste test for affirmative action quotas and reservations. The creamy layer, of course, is those who are now part of the mainstream middle and upper classes, but technically still from “backward” castes.

    A US analogy would be shutting down affirmative action benefits in college admissions to African Americans from comfortably off middle-class and professional families. They would be deemed to be the creamy layer that has already risen to the top of their cohort.

    Not surprisingly, the left in India is screaming murder at the idea and trying to discredit it vigorously.

    Incidentally, I love how Indian legal and constitutional terminology doesn’t flinch at using the word “backward” in describing groups of people.

  38. @rec1man
    All hindus avoid marrying within same paternal clade - even 50 generations out

    It is called Gothra, sort of like surname

    All Hindu-Sikh-Jain marriages are across Gothra - never within same gothra

    Then in Upper castes, at least 3rd cousin or farther out on mothers side and 7th cousin or further out on fathers side

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter

    Muslims marry both direct cousins and cross cousins

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter

    What does this mean?

    Aren’t more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?

    I have never heard the phrase “cross cousin.” In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    90% of dravidians are Hindus

    They have a different marriage system,

    direct cousin marriage is

    father-brother-daughter / son

    Mother-sister - daughter / son

    Muslims do this and some Indian christians do this

    Cross cousin marriage is

    Father-Sister- daugher / son

    Mother-brother-daughter / son
    , @AnotherDad

    I have never heard the phrase “cross cousin.”
     
    Lot, Rec1Man explained what he meant there--basically exogamous cousin marriage.

    A few thoughts on the sociology:

    Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother's son\brother's daughter)--ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq--tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes--whose world we'd messed up--in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.

    In contrast the South Indians' exogamous (brother's daughter\mother's son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides--and dowry, for communities with it--back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste "community". (Rec1man doesn't mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother's-daughter to mother's-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get "settled" in their career before marriage.)

    Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular "community" (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church's push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states--trust at scale.

  39. @SPMoore8
    Some comments and questions about Indians:

    Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.

    Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more "democratic" than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.

    Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that's the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster's (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra's religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the "Abrahamic" faiths, i.e., something more "organic."

    I don't see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don't know of any Edda hymns.

    Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don't know how the classes lower than this, or the "untouchables", evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there's a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don't think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.

    The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the "Ur" IE symbol. However, that isn't correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.

    The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there's lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

    Indeed.

    There has been a huge amount of highly relevant DNA research that has been applied lately to the question of Indian social groups, ancestries and pre-historic migrations. The 19th century notion of an outside Northern Aryan (white) conquest of a local, immobile Southern Dravidian (dark) population seems to be quite inadequate to the task of describing what happened and who Indians are.

    Like you, I await the GNXP crowd to chip in, but until then my understanding is that there are basically two groups, ANI (loosely, Ancestral North Indians) and ASI (Ancestral South Indians) which possibly arrived about a thousand years apart a few thousand years ago, from elsewhere. They don’t map neatly into any North-South geographic divide, and there is plenty of admixture.

  40. @Lot

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
     
    What does this mean?

    Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?

    I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.

    90% of dravidians are Hindus

    They have a different marriage system,

    direct cousin marriage is

    father-brother-daughter / son

    Mother-sister – daughter / son

    Muslims do this and some Indian christians do this

    Cross cousin marriage is

    Father-Sister- daugher / son

    Mother-brother-daughter / son

  41. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @rec1man
    There are 4 types of Indian skin colors

    Yellow , for the Mongoloid peoples of North East India

    Black , for the dravidians

    nearly white, for the bollywood stars, usually Khatri ( upper caste punjabi merchants ), some brahmins and kashmiri

    Brown for the rest of Indians ( 65% )

    and there are shades of brown

    Upper castes mostly have lighter brown skin ( wheatish )
    Padma Lakshmi , the model, is a Tamil brahmin, with wheatish color

    Black , for the dravidians

    This is nonsense. My entire family are Dravidians and they vary from pale skin to dark brown. You’ll find plenty of black-skinned Dravidians, but you’ll also find plenty of black-skinned Northerners. Dravidian is a linguistic grouping, not unlike your Hispanics.

  42. Lot says:
    @Bastion
    Very recently I was enlightened by an Indian coworker on the subject of backward castes. "Only in India do people strive to be backward". He was obviously very indignant about his classmates who were several generations from "backward" status and who still benefit from their disadvantage. Just this year, there were riots near Delhi as a clan of Indians lobbied for "backward" status and set-asides. This won't last.

    “Only in India do people strive to be backward”

    Nope, in America there is advantage to being a member of a victim group, and backwardness is evidence of victim-hood.

    Our most sacred people are therefore the most backwards and uncivilized people in the world, African Muslim immigrants. When a white kid brings a fake bomb to school he made by taking apart a $5 alarm clock, he is suspended for a few weeks if not expelled for a year. When a black muslim boy does so, he is showered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of free computers and college scholarships.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    ugh...Clock Boy. Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are? Still in Qatar, or was it Oman?
  43. @Anon
    Progressive millennial Indians of the sort that browse and contribute to Buzzfeed are a vanishingly small minority in India; typically Westernized rich kids from the big cities with expensive educational credentials on their resumes and much wisdom derived from blogging. Not all that different from progressive millennials in America, the main difference being that in India, they have virtually no political power or ability to influence the grand narratives that drive electoral politics in the country. They are vastly outnumbered by the poor, and the poor are all segregated along various tribal interests, whether caste or religion or language. The only progressive party with a national scope they could join is the Congress, which is fading thanks to the incompetence of the Nehru-Gandhi family. Meanwhile, the reactionary right-wing BJP rises to power because of the Hindutva heartlands, and their stance on caste may charitably be compared to Reagan's stance on race.

    It's a different situation in America where progressive millennials wield not-inconsiderable cultural power, even if they don't vote enough to have much political power.

    The goal of bjp is Hindu consolidation including dalits to create united front against muslims

    As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus

    Several leaders of BJP are backward castes – including governors and chief ministers

    *Kalyan Singh – backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 – now governor of Indian state

    *Uma Bharati – backward caste – used as rabble rouser vs muslims

    *Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste – chief minister of Madhya Pradesh

    *Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal – Chief minister of Assam

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    How accurate was the British system of Martial Races of India?
  44. @carol
    OT: Anyone see this author Sebastian Junger on PBS Newshour? He's got a book out called Tribe about community..can't even define tribe - no reference to extended family or race..jeesh. Does he have any idea where the aboriginal tribes came from?

    He said our tribes need to be more diverse. Gah.

    I actually, know him. He’s complex, and a very good guy. He is extremely intense and, in my opinion, may not “present well” on TV. His books are good. When he was a graduate student in the mid 80’s he wrote a very good book which is unlike any of his “War” books (or movie) of the last 10 or so years, “The Perfect Storm.” Anyway, Junger is a free spirit, beholden to no ideological camp. He is more a cultural anthropologist in his approach to the idea of “tribe.” He goes into the philosophy of the idea of “tribe,” not origin…does that make sense?

  45. @Lot

    “Only in India do people strive to be backward”
     
    Nope, in America there is advantage to being a member of a victim group, and backwardness is evidence of victim-hood.

    Our most sacred people are therefore the most backwards and uncivilized people in the world, African Muslim immigrants. When a white kid brings a fake bomb to school he made by taking apart a $5 alarm clock, he is suspended for a few weeks if not expelled for a year. When a black muslim boy does so, he is showered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of free computers and college scholarships.

    ugh…Clock Boy. Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are? Still in Qatar, or was it Oman?

    • Replies: @Mike

    Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are?
     
    He was in the paper this morning. It seems he's back in town for a visit.
  46. There are several forms of Hinduism and only some of them can be properly termed as reactionary. The main orthodox current within Hinduism, that of Vedic ritualism, is descended from the very reactionary indo-european culture that spread through war and patriarchy.

    Hinduism gradually evolved to become more liberal as the warriors settled down and became wealthy, and also accepted influences from other cultures into itself. At this point, the Hindu civilization gave rise to “protestant” religions like Buddhism. The following thousand years saw orthodox Hinduism adopt increasingly reactionary poses to distinguish itself from Buddhism, which in several ways foreshadowed today’s liberal progressivism. This is when the current form of the caste system became codified.

    Meanwhile, non-orthodox Hindus reinterpreted their religion to make it more liberal and open, thereby leading many Buddhists to reconvert to Hinduism. The larger Hindu fold therefore contained about an even mix of reactionaries and progressives after the fall of Buddhism towards the end of the 1st millennium CE.

    After that we had a thousand years of foreign rule, first 800 years of Muslims, then 200 years of the British. And one thing we see everywhere is that non-dominant cultures have to adopt very reactionary social mores in order to survive. Blacks and hispanics are far more right-wing in their innate social worldviews than Whites. As are Muslims who live in the west, compared to whites and to Muslims who live in Muslim countries. Same thing happened with Hindus in India.

  47. The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name. The most important qualification parents look for in a prospective match is “what sort of family are they from?”. Meaning they want to have a marital alliance with a family of equal or higher social status. This usually requires the family be from the same caste that they are, in addition to wealth and connections. Each caste, no matter how low its standing in the hierarchy, considers itself quite unique and would be displeased with intermarriage, even if it were with a member of a higher caste.

    The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance – because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.

    Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.

    I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I’ve finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.

    • Replies: @Keith Vaz
    "Appearance... not important." For real, South Asians aren't the prettiest. Must be why all the ones I come across (m&f) wanna grab a hot White partner.
    , @Numinous

    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name.
     
    No. Eugenics is what the Spartans (or Spartiates) practised. Arranged marriage is just arranged marriage, or more accurately facilitated marriage in today's world. The goal is to get every youth married to someone within their caste, and unless there is something seriously wrong with them, most Indians do get married. Finding a match is not a Darwinian "race to the top". In a traditional arrangement, as soon as a half-decent match is found, both families put significant pressure on the prospective bride and groom to get hitched. There's nothing eugenic about this, but it does preserve caste cohesion.
  48. Mike says: • Website
    @BenKenobi
    One of the first things I noticed after moving to Vancouver was that all (most) of the White people I befriended man and woman alike, while your standard PC Canadian, would without prompting say:

    "I f'n hate brown people." Humorously it was often prefaced by "I'm not racist but..."

    I came to the conclusion it was proximity. Kind of like how Americans catch heat both at home and abroad for "racism" against blacks.

    Try livin' next to 'em. I certainly understood the browns' reputation after working a hotel for 4 years in downtown Van.

    Try livin’ next to ‘em

    Buddy of mine has this huge house next door to his place. It went in and out of foreclosure a few times after 2008. Finally, an Indian buys the place. He moves his extended family into the house. There are cars everywhere, people coming and going at all times, etc.

    My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    Wait until the neighbourhood tips over!

    My girlfriend works in architecture here, and has an inside look at Vancouver real estate. She says it's typical for Indians to tear down an old White home that uses 40% of lot coverage to rebuild a house at 90% so they can pack 'em in.
  49. @Lagertha
    ugh...Clock Boy. Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are? Still in Qatar, or was it Oman?

    Does anyone have any idea where Clock Boy & Father Knows Best are?

    He was in the paper this morning. It seems he’s back in town for a visit.

  50. I came to a similar conclusion about Hinduism in 2008. It takes me back, although I don’t think I’ve really matured since. And I don’t think I ever did write that post on caste, or a couple book reviews I promised.

  51. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Indian/Paki women seem to be natural feminists.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-6939.html

    In addition Indian chicks in america also carry the same attitude that DC chicks have. I'm educated, I'm not a sexual being, my pride is in having 2 degrees, and I want a wealthy educated man to spend money on me. In addition Indian chicks in the USA can be very cocky with guys or tease them for pursuing sex. Another no no of feminimity.
     

    From what I've seen (mind you this is ONLY professional y dealing with them as customers) they're VERY high maintenance and most seem to quickly westernize and jump on the "lets be fat and wear sweatpants" bandwagon.
     

    They're wack and are usually ugly.
     

    Indian girls are like American girls on steroids. No thanks.
     

    Sometimes on a first date, after I've already made out with a girl, I'll stop her mid-walk, grab her and kiss briefly. The only girl who cuntily laughed at this was Indian. "What, you wanted to just kiss me again" or something to that effect. She was pretty, and very thin, but I never contacted her again.
     

    Another problem, at least in my area, is that good looking Indian women are rare as fuck. I mean, every now and then there will be one where you're like, holy shit she's banging, but they're few and far between, and the rest are ugly.

    I'd be interested to see what you guys have noticed, because as far as I've noticed, Indian women by and large are just not good looking.
     


    Indian women's personality issues are just as bad if not worse than their lacking in the good looks department.
     

    they tend to chub up pretty easily. Additionally, they love white guys more than other races from what I've seen.
     

    Meanwhile brown girls are just like Jewish and Persian girls in that they're more status seeking and materialistic except they're not as attractive (that's not me being biased against other brown people, everybody here agrees that brown girls on the whole aren't hot) which makes the attitudes they sport hard to put up with.
     

    A lot of the hot brown girls I know who are born and raised in the West LOVE acting ghetto when in reality they're far from it. They think they are African American. Anyway they are really Westernized and predominately hang out with other wannabe ghetto brown girls or wannabe ghetto white girls. They grow out of that after they finish university. Brown girls very much prefer dating other brown guys and at least at my age don't seem to care whether or not they're Indian or Sri Lankan or Pakistani. They get a fuckload of attention from pathetic hordes of ultra beta and needy brown guys and as such develop gigantic egos. They get passed around by the few player brown guys and wannabe ghetto white guys (mainly Italian and Greek in my neck of the woods) all the while pretending to be ultra innocent to all their brown male friends. If they knew how slutty some of the girls they idolate so much are they would probably kill themselves. They put them on the pedestal THAT much.
     

    Indian girls tend not to be good looking but you’re correct that several are very good looking. Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn’t look like she is from South Asia but Latin America. So maybe discrimination along lines of skin tone is quite rational. If you are Indian and want attractive children, find a fair mate.

    • Replies: @Lot

    Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn’t look like she is from South Asia but Latin America.
     
    The various pretty and pale Indian models I have seen all have faces that look to me distinctly non-European (and non-Latina.) Pale Indians and pale Iranians look about the same to me however. Their skin and eye coloring certainly can overlap a little with Southern Europe, but not at all the facial features.
  52. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The latest discoveries in genetics seem to support the view that the ‘Aryan’ invaders of India 5000 years ago were actually a *purely white European people* *originally from Europe* and not a Eurasian breed originating from the Asiatic steppe.

    In the course of history the invaders or conquerors or whatever, once they have established themselves as a ruling caste usually gradually assimilate with the conquered population to become one people.

    However, in India this never happened. Some quality or characteristic about the tribal or aboriginal population – not necessarily the ‘Dravidians’, mind you, seems to have repulsed the Aryans to an exceeding degree.

    • Replies: @Numinous

    The latest discoveries in genetics
     
    And what may those be? References?
  53. @Mike

    Try livin’ next to ‘em
     
    Buddy of mine has this huge house next door to his place. It went in and out of foreclosure a few times after 2008. Finally, an Indian buys the place. He moves his extended family into the house. There are cars everywhere, people coming and going at all times, etc.

    My buddy and the other wags in his neighborhood now refer to that house as The Call Center.

    Wait until the neighbourhood tips over!

    My girlfriend works in architecture here, and has an inside look at Vancouver real estate. She says it’s typical for Indians to tear down an old White home that uses 40% of lot coverage to rebuild a house at 90% so they can pack ’em in.

  54. @Lot

    Among dravidians, they usually marry cross-cousin, mother-brother daughter or father-sister-daughter
     
    What does this mean?

    Aren't more than 90% of dravidians Hindu?

    I have never heard the phrase "cross cousin." In American English we have first cousin, second cousin, half first cousins, and any of these once, twice, etc removed.

    I have never heard the phrase “cross cousin.”

    Lot, Rec1Man explained what he meant there–basically exogamous cousin marriage.

    A few thoughts on the sociology:

    Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother’s son\brother’s daughter)–ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq–tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes–whose world we’d messed up–in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.

    In contrast the South Indians’ exogamous (brother’s daughter\mother’s son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides–and dowry, for communities with it–back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste “community”. (Rec1man doesn’t mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother’s-daughter to mother’s-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get “settled” in their career before marriage.)

    Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular “community” (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church’s push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states–trust at scale.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_and_cross_cousins
  55. Lot says:
    @Anonymous
    Indian girls tend not to be good looking but you're correct that several are very good looking. Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn't look like she is from South Asia but Latin America. So maybe discrimination along lines of skin tone is quite rational. If you are Indian and want attractive children, find a fair mate.

    Those occasional very good looking Indian girl doesn’t look like she is from South Asia but Latin America.

    The various pretty and pale Indian models I have seen all have faces that look to me distinctly non-European (and non-Latina.) Pale Indians and pale Iranians look about the same to me however. Their skin and eye coloring certainly can overlap a little with Southern Europe, but not at all the facial features.

  56. @AnotherDad

    I have never heard the phrase “cross cousin.”
     
    Lot, Rec1Man explained what he meant there--basically exogamous cousin marriage.

    A few thoughts on the sociology:

    Endogamous cousin marriage, i.e. within the paternal line (brother's son\brother's daughter)--ex. the Sunni tribes in Iraq--tends to build very tight, but very *separate* clans. (Petraeus was eventually able to turn the Sunni tribes--whose world we'd messed up--in part because al Queda being more fundamentalist had the more scriptural view that anyone could marry anyone and had some of their boys trying to grab up the local girls who *belonged* to particular clans and were not for sharing.) These tight but separate clans, but makes building a real nation very difficult.

    In contrast the South Indians' exogamous (brother's daughter\mother's son) marriages essentially involve swapping brides--and dowry, for communities with it--back and forth between families, building deep networks of connections between the families in a particular caste "community". (Rec1man doesn't mention it, but some communities had uncle-niece marriages. Mother's-daughter to mother's-younger-brother. Which worked because women would get married much earlier then men, who needed to get "settled" in their career before marriage.)

    Of course, these deep cross-family connections never extended outside the particular "community" (sub-caste). So while these caste communities might be strong, the nation is weak. The Church's push against cousin marriage and for exogamy was definitely a very good thing and aided in the rise and success of European nation states--trust at scale.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Thanks for the correction Steve. I hadn't realized Rec1man's usage was standard issue.

    Cross and parallel are definitely better descriptors than my exo\ednogamous descriptors--which i picked up when Iraq's Sunni tribes were in the news--as the level of endogamy in both cases is the same. I think the exo\endo does get at the sociology of it a bit. Sort of exo-familial and endo-familial is my key point.

    It's interesting stuff. I'm glad Christianity pushed exogamy ... it is--or at least was--a better world.

  57. @thinkingabout it
    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name. The most important qualification parents look for in a prospective match is "what sort of family are they from?". Meaning they want to have a marital alliance with a family of equal or higher social status. This usually requires the family be from the same caste that they are, in addition to wealth and connections. Each caste, no matter how low its standing in the hierarchy, considers itself quite unique and would be displeased with intermarriage, even if it were with a member of a higher caste.

    The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance - because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.

    Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.

    I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I've finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.

    “Appearance… not important.” For real, South Asians aren’t the prettiest. Must be why all the ones I come across (m&f) wanna grab a hot White partner.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I disagree. Indian men may be ugly but Indian women are prettier than white women. Hollywood makes white women seem very attractive, but the reality is that most young white women look abhorrent without makeup. Their skin is never of an even tone, they're tall and muscular. They do have great hair and teeth and low body fat, I'll give them that. A lot of non white men still try to get with white girls but I think a lot of that is just situational, owing to the status of whites as the dominant group in America.

    Not that I'm claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.

    I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.
  58. The commenters here are full of fascinating facts and insights. One of the great things about this place is – TA-DAAA ! – the sheer diversity of the commenters – and in terms of understanding the increasingly globalised world we live in, that’s a great asset.

    I don’t pretend to understand all the ins and outs of the caste system, but here are a few links from my browser history

    The Caste System of India – A Very Rudimentary Summary – but it’s still pretty complex

    http://www.umsl.edu/~naumannj/Geography%201001%20articles/ch%207%20language%20&%20religion%20in%20culture/The%20Caste%20System%20of%20India.doc

    Arundhati Roy – I think we can say she’s agin’ it.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/indias-shame

    Why some Indians cling to their caste status even if it’s lowly

    http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/24/the-tragic-truth-about-indias-caste-syst

    Short and for Westerners doing business in India

    http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/indias-caste-system.html

    His Majesty’s List Of Scheduled Castes as of 1936

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160322162629/http://socialjustice.nic.in/pdf/SClist-200215.pdf

    The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950

    https://web.archive.org/web/20151206005703/http://www.socialjustice.nic.in/sclist.php

    Great big alphabetical list of castes with weblinks for most of them

    http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/CasteFinal.htm

  59. @rec1man
    The goal of bjp is Hindu consolidation including dalits to create united front against muslims

    As such, it has given political space to lots of backward castes and even forest tribals and even mongoloid Hindus

    Several leaders of BJP are backward castes - including governors and chief ministers

    *Kalyan Singh - backward caste, got Ayodhya Mosque demolished in 1992 - now governor of Indian state

    *Uma Bharati - backward caste - used as rabble rouser vs muslims

    *Shiv Raj Singh Chouhan- backward caste - chief minister of Madhya Pradesh

    *Sarbananda Sonowal- Mongoloid forest tribal - Chief minister of Assam

    How accurate was the British system of Martial Races of India?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    The british conquered India, with the help of low caste sepoys, often untouchables

    Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )

    Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins

    When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
    the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially

    Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
    through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
    These puppets supported the british

    All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
    - such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc

    and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
    removed from the army

    That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with

    There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
    got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army

    and several non-martial castes - such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british - The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
    and had no martial history at all - now are 75% of the Pakistan army

    And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them

    Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army

    The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue

    --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire#/media/File:India1760_1905.jpg

    This is the map of India @ 1760
    The big yellow swath in the middle is the
    Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british

    The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,

    Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
    They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british

    --

    Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory

    each such martial race has its own regiment

    Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry

    Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment

    Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
    Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test

    Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota

    *Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
    over their loyalty
    So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
    Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir

    *There is a muslim regiment - JAKLI - Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian army
  60. @thinkingabout it
    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name. The most important qualification parents look for in a prospective match is "what sort of family are they from?". Meaning they want to have a marital alliance with a family of equal or higher social status. This usually requires the family be from the same caste that they are, in addition to wealth and connections. Each caste, no matter how low its standing in the hierarchy, considers itself quite unique and would be displeased with intermarriage, even if it were with a member of a higher caste.

    The second question is usually related to level of education, and the third to income and earning potential. Height and skin color are also given importance - because subconsciously all Indians realize that their ruling class consists disproportionately of fairer-skinned and taller people.

    Appearance and compatibility, the cornerstones of western marriages, are not considered particularly important when parents pick mates for their children in India.

    I know all this first hand because my mother is trying to arrange a marriage for me. I've finally come round to admitting that her ideas are actually quite wise.

    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name.

    No. Eugenics is what the Spartans (or Spartiates) practised. Arranged marriage is just arranged marriage, or more accurately facilitated marriage in today’s world. The goal is to get every youth married to someone within their caste, and unless there is something seriously wrong with them, most Indians do get married. Finding a match is not a Darwinian “race to the top”. In a traditional arrangement, as soon as a half-decent match is found, both families put significant pressure on the prospective bride and groom to get hitched. There’s nothing eugenic about this, but it does preserve caste cohesion.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Well, arranged marriages are eugenic provided not everybody with a pulse marries, as you mention. Or if there are some other ways to cull out the bad mutations, such as high infant mortality or even infanticide like in Sparta ( if that's what you meant).
    All we can say is that Indians aren't selected for looks or health as things are.
    , @Mark2
    Arranged marriage would be a vast improvement over the present state of affairs.
  61. @Anonymous
    The latest discoveries in genetics seem to support the view that the 'Aryan' invaders of India 5000 years ago were actually a *purely white European people* *originally from Europe* and not a Eurasian breed originating from the Asiatic steppe.

    In the course of history the invaders or conquerors or whatever, once they have established themselves as a ruling caste usually gradually assimilate with the conquered population to become one people.

    However, in India this never happened. Some quality or characteristic about the tribal or aboriginal population - not necessarily the 'Dravidians', mind you, seems to have repulsed the Aryans to an exceeding degree.

    The latest discoveries in genetics

    And what may those be? References?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Just read Anthrogenica, Euro genes, Forum Biodiversity etc.
  62. @rec1man
    Lots of successful Dalit and Lower caste men , get themselves trophy Brahmin and Upper caste wives - like how Tiger Woods collects trophy blondes

    Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP

    http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/udit-rajFB.jpg

    and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri - Upper caste Punjabi merchant

    http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html

    “I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.

    --

    http://im.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/27nlook.jpg

    The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
    The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife - he is bigamist,
    he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her

    --


    http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01771/28FR-SRINIDHI_CHID_1771015g.jpg

    This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
    She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician


    --

    http://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/nirnayam-movie-audio-launch/nirnayam_movie_audio_launch_photos_stills_412e7e6.jpg

    This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin

    the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
    and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
    ( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )

    ---

    http://www.reshareit.com/wp-content/uploads/Jayalalitha-e1412767219145.jpg

    http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/jayalalithalifeinpics/f.jpg

    This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
    She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
    she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu

    She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
    film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the post

    money: chix dig it

  63. @SPMoore8
    Some comments and questions about Indians:

    Yes, the northern part of India was the extent of the Aryan invasion but clearly there was intermixture throughout the subcontintent. Padme Lakshmi (or whatever) is a high class Tamil, probably some Indian (Muslim?) who crossed over.

    Indians comprise various racial groupings, but in the north the big divide is between the Hindus, who have that religion and speak Hindi, and Muslims, who speak Hindi but call it Urdu. (obviously, the alphabets are different.) I would suspect, but do not know, that Islam is more "democratic" than Hinduism. Of course the Muslims mostly live in Pakistan or Bangladesh now.

    Hinduism is less than 4 K years old, because that's the earliest Vedic hymns, and we know that early religion gave rise to the other Indo European religion, Zoroastrianism, aka Persian Magian religion, aka the beginning of The Exorcist. The age of Zoroaster's (Sarastro to Magic Flute fans) or Zarathustra's religion is still debated. I imagine Nietzsche invoked Z. as a counter-weight to the "Abrahamic" faiths, i.e., something more "organic."

    I don't see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don't know of any Edda hymns.

    Caste = varna = color but not in terms of skin tone, but rather the typical Indo-European tripartite social order. I don't know how the classes lower than this, or the "untouchables", evolved from this. Clearly, at least in the northern, Hindu areas, there's a strong association of skin color and social standing. I don't think so much for Muslims or Dravidians.

    The swastika is all over Asia, and it became associated with the Indo-Europeans after Schliemann found pottery at Troy with swastikas on it. Thus, the "Ur" IE symbol. However, that isn't correct either since the Desert Eskimoes of America (Navaho, Apache) obviously imported that symbol when their language group crossed the Bering straits, so it must be ~15 K years old.

    The southern Indians (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, etc.) speak Dravidian languages and there's lots of argument as to what the Dravidians may have done in the North prior to the Aryan Invasion, including Mohenjo-daro, Harrapan, etc. There is a Dravidian isolate (Brahui) in Afghanistan, IIRC.

    Some fellow named Khan posts on unz.com, he should drop by and correct both of us.

    I don’t see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don’t know of any Edda hymns.

    I may be missing the point, but let’s start with the standard definition of a hymn “noun. a religious song or poem, typically of praise to God or a god”

    There are two Old Norse Eddas;
    – The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
    – The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)

    Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that’s a pretty striking similarity.

    Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in “Summoning The Gods”.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    There was an argument linking the Eddas and the Vedas; I am skeptical of that. As far as I know, the Eddas are mostly narratives, whereas the Vedic Hymns are more similar to (say) our Psalms. There may be an etymological link between Edda=Veda, but in terms of content I don't think there's any linkage at all. That was my comment/query.
  64. Not that I REALLY want to know, but what the hell is “ally-ism”?

  65. @rec1man
    Lots of successful Dalit and Lower caste men , get themselves trophy Brahmin and Upper caste wives - like how Tiger Woods collects trophy blondes

    Udit Raj is a Dalit MP , from Delhi, of the BJP

    http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/udit-rajFB.jpg

    and here he is raving about his white upper caste wife , Seema, Khatri - Upper caste Punjabi merchant

    http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/20084913256610287.html

    “I am very dark, almost black, but my wife is as fair as an English woman and I must say that although ours was a love marriage in which her intrinsic qualities mattered more than looks, I found her fair skin very attractive,” says Udit Raj.

    --

    http://im.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/27nlook.jpg

    The dude on the left, is Ram Vilas Paswan, a central govt minister and a dalit billionaire ( got his wealth by being corrupt politician )
    The fair woman feeding him is his brahmin 2nd wife - he is bigamist,
    he dumped his 1st wife ( dalit ) but did not divorce her

    --


    http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01771/28FR-SRINIDHI_CHID_1771015g.jpg

    This woman is Srinidhi, she was Tamil film actress, and Tamil Brahmin
    She married the son of P.Chidambaram, a powerful billionaire dravidian politician


    --

    http://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/nirnayam-movie-audio-launch/nirnayam_movie_audio_launch_photos_stills_412e7e6.jpg

    This is Anusha, a Tamil Brahmin

    the fat ugly dude on her right is her husband, a dravidian politician
    and grandson of M.Karunanidhi, the former chief minister of Tamil Nadu
    ( and a corrupt billionaire , whose politics involves mainly brahmin baiting )

    ---

    http://www.reshareit.com/wp-content/uploads/Jayalalitha-e1412767219145.jpg

    http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/jayalalithalifeinpics/f.jpg

    This is picture of Jayalalitha from 1966
    She is Tamil brahmin, now she is 50 years older and much fatter and uglier
    she is now Chief minister of Tamil Nadu

    She got her entry into politics by becoming mistress of MGR, a former dravidian
    film star, who later became Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. and she inherited the post

    Interesting! Are these brahmin women who marry beneath them shunned by their family and/or caste?
    Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.

    • Replies: @rec1man
    In the latest dna study

    Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI

    Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI

    Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI

    So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture - and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood - whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi

    There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians

    Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
    About 500 years ago, her great-great--- grandfather was the emperor of South India
    and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India

    --

    http://images.desimartini.com/media/uploads/hema_malini_young_photos-1.jpg

    This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    --

    This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4dj08qi6PbM/VYUHMWXFbmI/AAAAAAAACeQ/BOgYrDPenEc/s1600/7f5c3608e3ab.jpg

    --

    This is Shobitha Dhulipala
    a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clza946UYAIbVHM.jpg

    --

    This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
    She looks like Irina Shayk

    http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/762598-DeepikaPadukoneMeasurementsHeightWeightBraSizeAgeWikicopy-1410788958-760-640x480.jpg

    ---

    This is Gauri Pandit - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.cinegoer.net/telugu-cinema/gallery/exclusive/gowripandit2/gowri-pandit-3-2.jpg

    --

    Prachi Desai - Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/p/prachi-desai/2014/09-prachi-desai-hd-picture.jpg

    --

    Sandeepa Dhar - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/s/sandeepa-dhar/2015/16-sandeepa-dhar-hd-picture.jpg

    ---

    In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed

    --

    The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
    when they are of marriageable age
  66. @Numinous

    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name.
     
    No. Eugenics is what the Spartans (or Spartiates) practised. Arranged marriage is just arranged marriage, or more accurately facilitated marriage in today's world. The goal is to get every youth married to someone within their caste, and unless there is something seriously wrong with them, most Indians do get married. Finding a match is not a Darwinian "race to the top". In a traditional arrangement, as soon as a half-decent match is found, both families put significant pressure on the prospective bride and groom to get hitched. There's nothing eugenic about this, but it does preserve caste cohesion.

    Well, arranged marriages are eugenic provided not everybody with a pulse marries, as you mention. Or if there are some other ways to cull out the bad mutations, such as high infant mortality or even infanticide like in Sparta ( if that’s what you meant).
    All we can say is that Indians aren’t selected for looks or health as things are.

  67. @Gunnar von Cowtown

    I don’t see the relationship of the Eddas and the Vedas, since the earliest Vedic literature are the hymns, and I don’t know of any Edda hymns.
     
    I may be missing the point, but let's start with the standard definition of a hymn "noun. a religious song or poem, typically of praise to God or a god"

    There are two Old Norse Eddas;
    - The Prose Edda, which reads like literature
    - The Poetic Edda, which is a collection of poems about the gods (and in some case, poems written by the gods in first person)

    Like most early poetry, the Eddic poems were minstrel poems, passing orally from singer to singer and from poet to poet for centuries. I reckon that's a pretty striking similarity.

    Collin Cleary discusses this in detail in "Summoning The Gods".

    There was an argument linking the Eddas and the Vedas; I am skeptical of that. As far as I know, the Eddas are mostly narratives, whereas the Vedic Hymns are more similar to (say) our Psalms. There may be an etymological link between Edda=Veda, but in terms of content I don’t think there’s any linkage at all. That was my comment/query.

  68. Oscar says:

    Victorian conservative James Fitzjames Stephen, in his little-read “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity,” discussing the ‘progression’ of European society from bonds of status to those of contract, commented thusly:

    The truth is that the change above referred to, from status to contract, is very far indeed from being universally favourable to equality. I will not speculate on the nature of the change itself. It may be the best and most glorious of all conceivable states of society that all the relations between man and man should be resolved into the single relation of the earning and paying of wages in various forms; but whether this is so or not, it is perfectly certain that the result of the arrangement is to produce not equality but inequality in its harshest and least sympathetic form. The process is this. Society is converted into one immense machine, the powers of which are all concentrated into one body, which is called the public force. It consists of a legislative and an executive body backed up in case of need by soldiers and policemen. The direction in which this force is to act is ascertained by laws which apply with continually increasing precision and inflexibility to all sorts of cases. Each person is left to make use of these laws for his own purposes in his own way. They may be reduced to these four:–

    1. Thou shalt not commit crimes.
    2. Thou shalt not inflict wrong.
    3. Thou shalt perform thy contracts.
    4. Thou and thine may keep whatever you can get.

    To say that such a state of society is favourable to equality, that it tends to supersede obedience and command, that it has superseded force, and the like, sounds more like a poor kind of irony than anything else. What equality is there between the rich and the poor, between the strong and the weak, between the good and the bad? In particular, what equality is there between the well-born and well-bred man, the son of a good, careful, prudent, prosperous parent, who has transmitted to him a healthy mind and body, and given him a careful education; and the ill-born, ill-bred man whose parents had nothing to teach which was not better unlearned, and nothing to transmit which would not have been better uninherited. It is quite true that in these days we have not much titular inequality. It is quite true that we have succeeded in cutting political power into very little bits, which with our usual hymns of triumph we are continually mincing, till it seems not unlikely that many people may come to think that a single man’s share of it is not worth having at all. But with all this, real substantial inequalities in every respect, inequalities of wealth, inequalities of talent, of education, of sentiment, and of religious belief, and therefore inequalities in the most binding of all obligations, never were so great as they are at this moment. I doubt much whether the power of particular persons over their neighbours has ever in any age of the world been so well defined and so easily and safely exerted as it is at present. If in old times a slave was inattentive, his master might no doubt have him maimed or put to death or flogged; but he had to consider that in doing so he was damaging his own property, that when the slave had been flogged he would still continue to be his slave; and that the flogging might make him mischievous or revengeful, and so forth. If a modern servant misconducts himself, he can be turned out of the house on the spot, and another can be hired as easily as you would call a cab. To refuse the dismissed person a character may very likely be equivalent to sentencing him to months of suffering and to a permanent fall in the social scale. Such punishments are inflicted without appeal, without reflection, without the smallest disturbance of the smooth surface of ordinary life.

    The older mode of organizing society has, like other things, been made the subject of much romantic exaggeration, but it is clear that it had a side which was favourable to poverty and weakness, though it produced its inequalities, as our own social maxims do. To try to make men equal by altering social arrangements is like trying to make the cards of equal value by shuffling the pack. Men are fundamentally unequal, and this inequality will show itself arrange society as you like. If the object were to secure the greatest amount of equality, the way to do it would be by establishing a system of distinctions, a social hierarchy corresponding as nearly as possible to the real distinctions between men, and by making the members of each class equal among themselves. Something by no means unlike this has actually been done by the caste system in India, and the result is that Hindoo society, though in some ways elastic and possessed of a considerable power of assimilating new ideas, is stable and conservative to a degree utterly unknown and hardly even imaginable in Europe. If we were possessed of any test by which men could be marshalled according to their intrinsic differences with unfailing accuracy, we should really obtain the repose, the absence of conscious and painful restraint, the calm play of unresisted and admitted force which people appear to expect from the establishment of what they call equality. The establishment of even this ideal state of things would leave some of the most important of social problems unsolved, but it is almost an identical proposition that it would afford not merely the best but the only full solution of the great problem of harmonising self-interest with the interests of the public at large. A nation in which everyone held the position for which he was best fitted, and in which everyone was aware of that fact, would be a nation in which every man’s life would be passed in doing that which would be at once most agreeable to himself and most beneficial to his neighbours, and such a nation would have solved at all events several of the great problems of life.

    It is needless to insist on the plain fact that such an ideal is unattainable; but the maintenance of broad and well-marked distinctions which really exist at a given time and place is a step towards it. The distinctions of age and sex are universal. Distinctions of race are at given times and places most important, and the fact that they have been exaggerated and abused is no reason for denying their existence. Distinctions of wealth and of the education and other qualities which are associated with the acquisition and retention of wealth are no less real. Such distinctions will continue to exist and to produce inequalities of every description whether or not they are recognized by law, and whether or not they are permitted to affect the distribution of political authority. Leave them to find their own level by unrestricted competition and they will display themselves in their most naked and their harshest form.

  69. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Keith Vaz
    "Appearance... not important." For real, South Asians aren't the prettiest. Must be why all the ones I come across (m&f) wanna grab a hot White partner.

    I disagree. Indian men may be ugly but Indian women are prettier than white women. Hollywood makes white women seem very attractive, but the reality is that most young white women look abhorrent without makeup. Their skin is never of an even tone, they’re tall and muscular. They do have great hair and teeth and low body fat, I’ll give them that. A lot of non white men still try to get with white girls but I think a lot of that is just situational, owing to the status of whites as the dominant group in America.

    Not that I’m claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.

    I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.

    • Replies: @BB753
    It depends on what kind of white women, just as its probably unfair to paint all Indian women with a broad brush. Have you ever met Ukrainian or Romanian women? Now, if by ugly white women you refer to English women, you might have a point.
  70. @Numinous

    The latest discoveries in genetics
     
    And what may those be? References?

    Just read Anthrogenica, Euro genes, Forum Biodiversity etc.

  71. @rec1man
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full.pdf

    This is the latest dna study

    In page 1596, the results are in graphic form

    In page 1597 in table format

    KSH = Khatri Sikh - Upper caste punjabi merchant, 98% ANI ( Aryan ) - most bollywood stars are Khatri - including Priyanka Chopra ( Quantico )

    GBR = Gujurati Brahmin, 88% ANI

    IYR = Iyer ( Tamil Brahmin ), 80% ANI

    WBR = West Bengal Brahmin, 77% ANI

    MRT = Maratha, peasant near Bombay, 58% ANI

    PLN = Pallan, ( Tamil Dalit Dravidian ) , 49% ANI

    These are all caste populations - the rest are minor forest tribals

    How come Gujarati Brahmin are less accomplished than Tamil Brahmin?

    India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.

    Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    There are 2 main divisions of Brahmins

    Pancha Gouda - Northern Stream - Kashmiri, Hindi, Bengali, Orissa Brahmins

    and

    Pancha Dravida - Southern Stream - Gujurati, Maharashtrian, Tamil, Telugu and Karnatak Brahmins

    Thats the historical textual link

    DNA seems to show that much of the source population of Tamil Brahmins is from Gujurat

    The only reason for the gap, I can think of is this - In regions under muslim rule, most of the brahmin elite got massacred - and Gujurati Brahmins were affected by this and Tamil Brahmins escaped most of it
  72. @Anon
    About time this vicious and hateful system was confronted. The "C" word for caste has kept millions in India in the depths of impoverishment and misery. The other "C" word is color, as in skin. One sees Indian marriage sites where aspirants represent themselves as "light skinned." The advertising industry in India is rife with ads for skin lighteners, which is telling. And there is a relationship between Brahmin caste and light skin. One doesn't see much of this discussed publicly in the USA. The caste system which ripples into contemporary Indian migration to the USA needs more coverage.

    Vicious and hateful? “Vicious” comes from “vice”: there is no vice involved in keeping a superior race in charge of inferior ones.
    “Hateful”? To you maybe, but not to those who have successfully run India, a great civilisation, for thousands of years by keeping the best in charge of the worst.
    This is what civilisation is all about; that it happens to put the lighter over the darker every time is just Nature having its say.
    Cry about it all you like, but it will never change.

  73. @Anonymous
    I disagree. Indian men may be ugly but Indian women are prettier than white women. Hollywood makes white women seem very attractive, but the reality is that most young white women look abhorrent without makeup. Their skin is never of an even tone, they're tall and muscular. They do have great hair and teeth and low body fat, I'll give them that. A lot of non white men still try to get with white girls but I think a lot of that is just situational, owing to the status of whites as the dominant group in America.

    Not that I'm claiming Indian women are hotter than everyone else. I personally find east and south east Asians incredibly attractive- petite, hairless, good skin, demure.

    I think white men are more attractive than other men, though.

    It depends on what kind of white women, just as its probably unfair to paint all Indian women with a broad brush. Have you ever met Ukrainian or Romanian women? Now, if by ugly white women you refer to English women, you might have a point.

  74. [T]he Caste System of ancient India… may have had some of the practical advantages of the Guild System of Medieval Europe. But it contrasts not only with that Christian democracy, but with every extreme type of Christian aristocracy, in the fact that it does really conceive the social superiority as a spiritual superiority. This not only divides it fundamentally from the fraternity of Christendom, but leaves it standing like a mighty and terraced mountain of pride between the relatively egalitarian levels both of Islam and of China. But the fixity of this formation through thousands of years is another illustration of that spirit of repetition that has marked time from time immemorial.

    -G.K. Chesterton

  75. @Numinous

    The entire system of arranged marriages is basically a form of eugenics, but by another name.
     
    No. Eugenics is what the Spartans (or Spartiates) practised. Arranged marriage is just arranged marriage, or more accurately facilitated marriage in today's world. The goal is to get every youth married to someone within their caste, and unless there is something seriously wrong with them, most Indians do get married. Finding a match is not a Darwinian "race to the top". In a traditional arrangement, as soon as a half-decent match is found, both families put significant pressure on the prospective bride and groom to get hitched. There's nothing eugenic about this, but it does preserve caste cohesion.

    Arranged marriage would be a vast improvement over the present state of affairs.

  76. @Steve Sailer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_and_cross_cousins

    Thanks for the correction Steve. I hadn’t realized Rec1man’s usage was standard issue.

    Cross and parallel are definitely better descriptors than my exo\ednogamous descriptors–which i picked up when Iraq’s Sunni tribes were in the news–as the level of endogamy in both cases is the same. I think the exo\endo does get at the sociology of it a bit. Sort of exo-familial and endo-familial is my key point.

    It’s interesting stuff. I’m glad Christianity pushed exogamy … it is–or at least was–a better world.

  77. @rec1man
    Padma Lakshmi is a Tamil Speaking Brahmin

    Essentially brahmin migrants from Northern India, with about 20% Dravidian admixture

    There is no muslim admixture

    http://cdn.womensrunning.competitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/padma.jpg

    As the great Howie Carr would say, “Not Guilty!”

  78. @BB753
    Interesting! Are these brahmin women who marry beneath them shunned by their family and/or caste?
    Strange, Tamil brahmin women look about as fair-skinned as Panjabi upper caste brahmin or Sikh women, who turn out to be less white than I expected for northerners.

    In the latest dna study

    Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI

    Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI

    Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI

    So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture – and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood – whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi

    There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians

    Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
    About 500 years ago, her great-great— grandfather was the emperor of South India
    and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India

    This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    This is Shobitha Dhulipala
    a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star

    This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
    She looks like Irina Shayk

    This is Gauri Pandit – Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    Prachi Desai – Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )

    Sandeepa Dhar – Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed

    The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
    when they are of marriageable age

    • Replies: @BB753
    Thanks for your replies! So what caste are these children of low caste father and upper caste mother allocated to? Their father's?
    What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?
  79. @Anonymous
    How come Gujarati Brahmin are less accomplished than Tamil Brahmin?

    India has 4 Nobel Prize winners in the sciences (not counting econ) and 3 of them are Tamil Brahmins.

    Does that mean Tamil Brahmins are vastly superior to Gujarati Brahmins in intelligence?

    There are 2 main divisions of Brahmins

    Pancha Gouda – Northern Stream – Kashmiri, Hindi, Bengali, Orissa Brahmins

    and

    Pancha Dravida – Southern Stream – Gujurati, Maharashtrian, Tamil, Telugu and Karnatak Brahmins

    Thats the historical textual link

    DNA seems to show that much of the source population of Tamil Brahmins is from Gujurat

    The only reason for the gap, I can think of is this – In regions under muslim rule, most of the brahmin elite got massacred – and Gujurati Brahmins were affected by this and Tamil Brahmins escaped most of it

  80. @Yak-15
    How accurate was the British system of Martial Races of India?

    The british conquered India, with the help of low caste sepoys, often untouchables

    Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )

    Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins

    When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
    the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially

    Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
    through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
    These puppets supported the british

    All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
    – such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc

    and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
    removed from the army

    That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with

    There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
    got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army

    and several non-martial castes – such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british – The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
    and had no martial history at all – now are 75% of the Pakistan army

    And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them

    Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army

    The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue

    This is the map of India @ 1760
    The big yellow swath in the middle is the
    Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british

    The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,

    Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
    They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british

    Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory

    each such martial race has its own regiment

    Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry

    Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment

    Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
    Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test

    Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota

    *Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
    over their loyalty
    So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
    Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir

    *There is a muslim regiment – JAKLI – Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian army

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    Very interesting. Thanks!
  81. Urvashi Rautela, Punjabi Upper Caste Rajput ( Kshatriya )

    The woman on the left is Deepika Padukone ( Karnataka – South Indian – Brahmin )
    and on the right Irina Shayk

  82. @rec1man
    In the latest dna study

    Iyer = Tamil Brahmin = 80% ANI

    Pallan = Tamil Dalit Dravidian = 48% ANI

    Khatri = Upper Caste Punjabi Merchant ( most bollywood stars ) = 98% ANI

    So Tamil Brahmins ( and other South Indian brahmins ) can be modelled as Aryan Upper Caste Punjabis with about 25% Dravidian Admixture - and 25% do look just like Upper Caste Punjabis and are in Bollywood - whereas 25% can pass as dravidian and remaining 50% look like Padma Lakshmi

    There are plenty of dark North Indians and plenty of fair South Indians

    Aiswarya Rai is of dravidian ethnicity, not a brahmin and is South Indian
    About 500 years ago, her great-great--- grandfather was the emperor of South India
    and had 100s of wives, including many Hindu princesses from North India

    --

    http://images.desimartini.com/media/uploads/hema_malini_young_photos-1.jpg

    This is Hema Malini, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    --

    This is Meenakshi Seshadri, a Tamil Brahmin and bollywood actress

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4dj08qi6PbM/VYUHMWXFbmI/AAAAAAAACeQ/BOgYrDPenEc/s1600/7f5c3608e3ab.jpg

    --

    This is Shobitha Dhulipala
    a Telugu Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clza946UYAIbVHM.jpg

    --

    This is Deepika Padukone, Karnataka Brahmin ( South Indian ) and bollywood star
    She looks like Irina Shayk

    http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/762598-DeepikaPadukoneMeasurementsHeightWeightBraSizeAgeWikicopy-1410788958-760-640x480.jpg

    ---

    This is Gauri Pandit - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.cinegoer.net/telugu-cinema/gallery/exclusive/gowripandit2/gowri-pandit-3-2.jpg

    --

    Prachi Desai - Gujurati Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/p/prachi-desai/2014/09-prachi-desai-hd-picture.jpg

    --

    Sandeepa Dhar - Kashmiri Brahmin ( North Indian )

    http://www.media.glamsham.com/download/hd-images/celebrity/Actress/s/sandeepa-dhar/2015/16-sandeepa-dhar-hd-picture.jpg

    ---

    In many cases, when a rich lower caste man wants to marry their daughter, most brahmins would reject their proposal, unless they are over-come with greed

    --

    The children of lower caste man + brahmin woman are usually not accepted by brahmins
    when they are of marriageable age

    Thanks for your replies! So what caste are these children of low caste father and upper caste mother allocated to? Their father’s?
    What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    Historically, as a last resort, Upper caste men, ( poor, loser etc ),
    who cant get an upper caste wife,
    are allowed to marry a lower caste woman, and the children belong to the fathers caste

    So a brahmin man with lower caste woman, his children will be considered brahmin
    But, because lower caste women are ugly ( all bollywood stars are upper caste ),
    the children wont look so good, and will have troubles getting an arranged marriage

    Each year, 25000 ugly , low caste , bangladeshi muslim women are sold as wives to
    poor upper caste North Indian men ( who cant get upper caste wife )

    These days, there is a fair amount of inter-caste marriages , in urban areas, between brahmins and other upper castes -
    and since both sides are from 'Aryan' castes, the kids can pass in the caste of both parents
    and both paternal and maternal castes will accept them into their caste- so the kids can choose which caste they want to marry into

    Historically whenever a non-hindu society assimilates into Hinduism they import brahmin men and in the initial wave, there will be few brahmin women imported , and some of these brahmin migrants marry some local non-Aryan women to them - so there are yellow skin ( oriental ) brahmins in places like Thailand and North-east India and Nepal - and mainstream hindus accept them as brahmins - Thailand was part of Hindu Khmer empire, before the invasion of the Thai in 1300 AD

    Historically, marriage between Upper caste woman and lower caste man, is - was banned - will cause riots / honor killings in rural areas - these days a rich lower caste man, may get a greedy higher caste wife, but the kids will be into the lower caste
  83. @rec1man
    The british conquered India, with the help of low caste sepoys, often untouchables

    Such as the Mahar Caste ( Bombay Untouchable )

    Until 1857 sepoy mutiny, they also hired thousands of Hindi Brahmins

    When the british introduced new bullet cartridges greased with pork and beef,
    the sepoy mutiny was led by these Hindi brahmin soldiers initially

    Part of India was directly british ruled and the other half was ruled indirectly
    through Indian kings who were puppets of the british
    These puppets supported the british

    All those who supported the british in 1857 got declared as martial races
    - such as Sikhs, Gurkhas etc

    and those who opposed the british in 1857 got labelled as non-martial races and got
    removed from the army

    That being said, Sikhs and Gurkhas are not people you want to mess with

    There were several actual martial castes who because they opposed the british,
    got declared as criminal castes or as non-martial and removed from the army

    and several non-martial castes - such as Muslim Punjabis who got declared as martial castes bcos they supported the british - The muslim punjabis were a subject race, under sikh rule
    and had no martial history at all - now are 75% of the Pakistan army

    And the upper class british had a history of sodomy, and declared the Pathans as martial bcos they had gay affairs with them

    Being declared a martial race was very lucrative, low risk job bcos of good pay with benefits in british Indian army

    The tamils were declared as non-martial, but the LTTE of Sri Lanka , a tamil militant group, proved to be very difficult to subdue

    --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire#/media/File:India1760_1905.jpg

    This is the map of India @ 1760
    The big yellow swath in the middle is the
    Maratha Empire, which ruled most of India, before the british

    The Maratha empire was ruled by a brahmin caste, Chitpavan,

    Many of the leaders of the 1857 sepoy mutiny were Chitpavan brahmins
    They got declared a non-martial race bcos they opposed the british

    --

    Today, about 30% of the Indian army is based on martial race theory

    each such martial race has its own regiment

    Mazbhi Sikhs ( untouchables ) are in Sikh Light Infantry

    Jat Sikhs ( landlord ) are in a different regiment

    Today Sikhs are about 4% of the Indian army, down from 20% in 1951
    Today many of the Sikh youth are addicted to drugs and fail the army physical entrance test

    Each Indian linguistic state has a quota in the army, roughly based on population ratio , for the 70% non-martial race quota

    *Muslims are deliberately kept to less than 2% in the Indian army, bcos of doubts
    over their loyalty
    So yes, the Indian army has muslim generals, but mostly a token
    Often an Indian army muslim general is put in charge of suppressing the insurgency in Kashmir

    *There is a muslim regiment - JAKLI - Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry, that mostly recruits Kashmiri muslims into the Indian army

    Very interesting. Thanks!

  84. @BB753
    Thanks for your replies! So what caste are these children of low caste father and upper caste mother allocated to? Their father's?
    What about the converse, upper caste father+ lower caste mother?

    Historically, as a last resort, Upper caste men, ( poor, loser etc ),
    who cant get an upper caste wife,
    are allowed to marry a lower caste woman, and the children belong to the fathers caste

    So a brahmin man with lower caste woman, his children will be considered brahmin
    But, because lower caste women are ugly ( all bollywood stars are upper caste ),
    the children wont look so good, and will have troubles getting an arranged marriage

    Each year, 25000 ugly , low caste , bangladeshi muslim women are sold as wives to
    poor upper caste North Indian men ( who cant get upper caste wife )

    These days, there is a fair amount of inter-caste marriages , in urban areas, between brahmins and other upper castes –
    and since both sides are from ‘Aryan’ castes, the kids can pass in the caste of both parents
    and both paternal and maternal castes will accept them into their caste- so the kids can choose which caste they want to marry into

    Historically whenever a non-hindu society assimilates into Hinduism they import brahmin men and in the initial wave, there will be few brahmin women imported , and some of these brahmin migrants marry some local non-Aryan women to them – so there are yellow skin ( oriental ) brahmins in places like Thailand and North-east India and Nepal – and mainstream hindus accept them as brahmins – Thailand was part of Hindu Khmer empire, before the invasion of the Thai in 1300 AD

    Historically, marriage between Upper caste woman and lower caste man, is – was banned – will cause riots / honor killings in rural areas – these days a rich lower caste man, may get a greedy higher caste wife, but the kids will be into the lower caste

  85. https://www.google.com/search?q=bollywood+hollywood+look+alike+celebs&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTy8T–dXNAhVQlpAKHRogDi0Q_AUIBigB

    This has pictures of hollywood stars and their bollywood look-alikes

    Minisha Lamba, Upper caste Punjabi merchant

    Sunny Leone – former US porn star, now in bollywood

    Upper caste punjabi

  86. rec1man, thanks again for the information. But why not show us pictures of ordinary upper caste Indians who are not in Bollywood?

    • Replies: @rec1man
    Google Image search -

    brahmin brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=brahmin+brides&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40eDHpNbNAhWGG5AKHS1VA7QQ_AUIBygC

    Jat brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpopDepNbNAhUJEpAKHUYJDREQ_AUICCgD

    Sikh brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif9f6XpdbNAhWl5oMKHYFxBBgQ_AUIBigB

    Rajput brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=rajput+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_KiqpdbNAhVM6oMKHciBAjoQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gq4I4LXTTGNy_M%3A

    Jain brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=jain+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjRiceSptbNAhXF7CYKHXIrA1kQ_AUIBygC


    Khatri brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=khatri+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwifp4a2ptbNAhUG5CYKHd3WBpYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#
  87. @rec1man
    Google Image search -

    brahmin brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=brahmin+brides&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS691US691&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40eDHpNbNAhWGG5AKHS1VA7QQ_AUIBygC

    Jat brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpopDepNbNAhUJEpAKHUYJDREQ_AUICCgD

    Sikh brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif9f6XpdbNAhWl5oMKHYFxBBgQ_AUIBigB

    Rajput brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=rajput+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_KiqpdbNAhVM6oMKHciBAjoQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=gq4I4LXTTGNy_M%3A

    Jain brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=jain+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjRiceSptbNAhXF7CYKHXIrA1kQ_AUIBygC


    Khatri brides

    https://www.google.com/search?q=khatri+brides&biw=1280&bih=619&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwifp4a2ptbNAhUG5CYKHd3WBpYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#

    That’s a bride overdose.. Are you ready to tie the knot, rec1man?

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