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What's Going on at the Incirlik U.S. Air Force Base in Turkey?
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From Murdoch’s News in Australia:

Reports Turkish troops have sealed off Incirlik US/NATO nuclear air base
22 MINUTES AGOJULY 31, 2016

TURKEY has sent police to surround the Incirlik air base it operates with the United States — and where a large stockpile of NATO nuclear weapons is held — ahead of a visit by a senior US official tomorrow.

Unconfirmed reports out of Turkey suggest all entrances to the air base have been blocked by heavy vehicles and police sent to secure its perimeter.

The unusual nigh-time move sparked rumours of a second coup attempt on Turkish social media.

The move comes less than a week after a top US Army general was accused by Turkish media of ‘leading’ the uprising against President Erdogan earlier this month.

But Turkish Minister for European Affairs has since reportedly sought to reassure media, stating the mission was just a “safety inspection”.

No conspiracy theories, please …

 
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  1. Not even a teeny tiny conspiracy theory? Maybe the US official is that Gulen chap.

  2. Sorry, I can’t resist – Erdogan wants Trump to win too.

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    Erdogan loves Bibi, too.

    Why has Erdogan, the man who never missed an opportunity during the last few years to regularly berate and curse Israel at political rallies, and turned to a cheek to the blatant anti-Semitism filling the pages of Turkey’s pro-government press, suddenly changed to a leader that just last January stated, “Israel is in need of a country like Turkey in the region. We have to admit that we also need Israel”?

    Make Gaza safe again!

  3. Erdogan is trying to pressure the US into extraditing Gulen while appeasing ordinary Turks who may have rightfully fingered the guilty party behind the coup?

    • Replies: @Divine Right
    The article states that a US general is expected at the base very shortly. This may be a move to block angry Turk protesters from storming the base in response. Earlier in the week, a protest against the US was staged outside of Incirlik.
  4. @Divine Right
    Erdogan is trying to pressure the US into extraditing Gulen while appeasing ordinary Turks who may have rightfully fingered the guilty party behind the coup?

    The article states that a US general is expected at the base very shortly. This may be a move to block angry Turk protesters from storming the base in response. Earlier in the week, a protest against the US was staged outside of Incirlik.

    • Replies: @donut
    What possible use could a "US general" , f**king stooge , traitor do to save the Incirlik Air Base ? It was never in any danger in the first place . 10 to 1 the US was in on this from the start . Our government despises a free thinking free man .
    , @Libby
    Not just "a U.S. general" but the four-star Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest-ranking military officer in the United States Armed Forces.
  5. Im really curious to see how far Erdogan will be able to go in tightening his grip on power, as well as how tgis will affect US interests

  6. Yeah maybe should get our nukes out of Turkey.

    • Replies: @Louis Renault
    Should have been done years ago.
    , @donut
    Maybe we should get our troops out of Turkey altogether as well as Europe the ME and Asia .
  7. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase. Once you’ve gone full coup, you really can’t allow some other country–especially one you’ve just ticked off–to have a military base on your territory. It’s the natural place to begin the staging of Erdogan’s overthrow, and he knows it. He knows he’s just made himself the villain of the story, and he’s dumb and reckless enough to try it.

    NATO is probably going to decide they simply can’t afford a blackmailing, terrorist-promoting, grafting, nutjob dictator who is maltreating and arresting huge masses of his own people in its alliance anymore. I’m positive they’re in talks with some of the remaining Turkish military leaders, who may be having second thoughts about not joining the coup in the first place. The mass arrests throughout their own society may have startled and dismayed them. I doubt the military expected Erdogan to go that far. If you add up all the arrested people and give each person a social network of at least dozen other people, Erdogan has infuriated vast numbers of persons who might have supported him if he hadn’t been so vindictive and paranoid. There are too many people who now have a grudge against him for his regime to ever be stable again.

    And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, he and the Democrats are going to be utterly humililated in the eyes of the American public. Obama is weak, stupid, and appeasing enough to let Erdogan do it to avoid ‘annoying’ him.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Will Merkel turn against Erdogan being in NATO knowing he can turn on the refugee flow to Germany any time he feels like it? Last time she was offering to let him in the EU, not kick him out of NATO.
    , @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase.
     
    I doubt Erdogan would wish to go to war with the USA. And seeing as how the Incirlik base contains atomic warheads (despite the reckless foolishness on our part that fact may indicate), that would mean a real war. Perhaps Erdogan really is that maniacal, but I'm inclined to doubt it.
  8. @Anon
    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase. Once you've gone full coup, you really can't allow some other country--especially one you've just ticked off--to have a military base on your territory. It's the natural place to begin the staging of Erdogan's overthrow, and he knows it. He knows he's just made himself the villain of the story, and he's dumb and reckless enough to try it.

    NATO is probably going to decide they simply can't afford a blackmailing, terrorist-promoting, grafting, nutjob dictator who is maltreating and arresting huge masses of his own people in its alliance anymore. I'm positive they're in talks with some of the remaining Turkish military leaders, who may be having second thoughts about not joining the coup in the first place. The mass arrests throughout their own society may have startled and dismayed them. I doubt the military expected Erdogan to go that far. If you add up all the arrested people and give each person a social network of at least dozen other people, Erdogan has infuriated vast numbers of persons who might have supported him if he hadn't been so vindictive and paranoid. There are too many people who now have a grudge against him for his regime to ever be stable again.

    And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, he and the Democrats are going to be utterly humililated in the eyes of the American public. Obama is weak, stupid, and appeasing enough to let Erdogan do it to avoid 'annoying' him.

    Will Merkel turn against Erdogan being in NATO knowing he can turn on the refugee flow to Germany any time he feels like it? Last time she was offering to let him in the EU, not kick him out of NATO.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Merkel is a case, definitely, but Germany has already been 'refugeed.' Erdogan's done most of the damage he can do to Germany. At this point, Merkel's career is looking shakier, and she probably has several advisers in her own party telling her that it's time to kick out Erdogan, and saying her--and their--political future depends on it. At the very least, the German military is undoubtedly telling her they can't trust Erdogan farther than they can throw him.
    , @Jason Liu
    If Merkel cared about too many refugees, she could stop them herself with or without Turkey's help. It just takes will and guts.
  9. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Will Merkel turn against Erdogan being in NATO knowing he can turn on the refugee flow to Germany any time he feels like it? Last time she was offering to let him in the EU, not kick him out of NATO.

    Merkel is a case, definitely, but Germany has already been ‘refugeed.’ Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany. At this point, Merkel’s career is looking shakier, and she probably has several advisers in her own party telling her that it’s time to kick out Erdogan, and saying her–and their–political future depends on it. At the very least, the German military is undoubtedly telling her they can’t trust Erdogan farther than they can throw him.

    • Replies: @Matra
    Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany.

    Maybe he can do more. This weekend Erdogan is flying supporters from Turkey to Cologne on the national airline to join a counter-demonstration against anti-Erdogan Turks living in Germany. Up to 30K people are expected on the streets of Cologne later today (Sunday). Nearly 3K local and federal police with water cannon are preparing for street clashes. The authorities also expect local far right activists to show up too. We'll see if it makes Sunday night's news.

    , @donut
    "the German military" lol .

    Just before the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 , someone expressed his concern about the British army landing in Northern Germany and taking the Germans in the flank . The Iron Chancellor replied that he would send a policeman to arrest them . Today we can have a good laugh at the expense of what was once the most professional army in the world .
    , @donut
    " Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany." WTF? No one has done more damage to Germany than the viper Merkle .
  10. Yeah, but how cool is it that the accused US general has an alibi: Drinking with Geraldo Rivera!

  11. I am just waiting for the reincarnation of Sabbatai Zevi to show up and make things really interesting.

  12. @Anon
    Merkel is a case, definitely, but Germany has already been 'refugeed.' Erdogan's done most of the damage he can do to Germany. At this point, Merkel's career is looking shakier, and she probably has several advisers in her own party telling her that it's time to kick out Erdogan, and saying her--and their--political future depends on it. At the very least, the German military is undoubtedly telling her they can't trust Erdogan farther than they can throw him.

    Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany.

    Maybe he can do more. This weekend Erdogan is flying supporters from Turkey to Cologne on the national airline to join a counter-demonstration against anti-Erdogan Turks living in Germany. Up to 30K people are expected on the streets of Cologne later today (Sunday). Nearly 3K local and federal police with water cannon are preparing for street clashes. The authorities also expect local far right activists to show up too. We’ll see if it makes Sunday night’s news.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It has already made news, since the protest has been prohibited. Germany and Turkey are now at daggers drawn (and it had to come to this, considering whom Germany and Merkel obey to, and the new course taken by Erdogan).
    , @Lurker
    Absurd situation. Why on earth should Germany allow a single one of these people off the plane?
  13. @Anon
    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase. Once you've gone full coup, you really can't allow some other country--especially one you've just ticked off--to have a military base on your territory. It's the natural place to begin the staging of Erdogan's overthrow, and he knows it. He knows he's just made himself the villain of the story, and he's dumb and reckless enough to try it.

    NATO is probably going to decide they simply can't afford a blackmailing, terrorist-promoting, grafting, nutjob dictator who is maltreating and arresting huge masses of his own people in its alliance anymore. I'm positive they're in talks with some of the remaining Turkish military leaders, who may be having second thoughts about not joining the coup in the first place. The mass arrests throughout their own society may have startled and dismayed them. I doubt the military expected Erdogan to go that far. If you add up all the arrested people and give each person a social network of at least dozen other people, Erdogan has infuriated vast numbers of persons who might have supported him if he hadn't been so vindictive and paranoid. There are too many people who now have a grudge against him for his regime to ever be stable again.

    And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, he and the Democrats are going to be utterly humililated in the eyes of the American public. Obama is weak, stupid, and appeasing enough to let Erdogan do it to avoid 'annoying' him.

    “And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, ”

    I think it’s insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    • Replies: @gcochran
    "they were useless without the secret code"

    Not exactly.
    , @Diversity Heretic
    I too am both astounded and dismayed that the U.S. has nuclear weapons in Turkey. Somehow, foolish me, I thought that they had gone when John Kennedy agreed to remove Jupiter missiles as part of the Cuban missile crisis resolution. What other possible target could there be save Russia?
    , @Boomstick
    The weapons have Permissive Action Links (PALs) that prevent their use without a code, and disable the weapon if the code is not correctly entered after a certain number of attempts.

    The weapons are part of the US nuclear NATO guarantee. Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey provide delivery systems, and the US stores the weapons on host country bases, guarded by US personnel, with US PALs and under US command and control. If the Rooskies invade the US provides the codes and the NATO allies deliver the weapons.

    The intent is to both discourage nuclear weapon development by the likes of Italy and to provide them with reassurance that the US nuclear umbrella extends to them.

    The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the way to Turkey. If the nukes at Incirlik are withdrawn that would be a pretty good sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US, and probably indicate a Russian/Turkish agreement about the Middle East that is not favorable for the US.

    The Turks seizing the weapons is about half a step short of Armageddon. Maybe a quarter step.
    , @The Alarmist

    "... that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code."
     
    They weren't exactly surrendered to just anybody. Even if you have a weapon with a useless trigger or one that has been misdetonated to disable it, you still have a certain amount of weapons grade fissile materials and useful components that a reasonably good but hostile engineer can put to use.
    , @Karl
    > I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate


    ....but the agit-prop scoring points do not.
  14. @Steve Sailer
    Will Merkel turn against Erdogan being in NATO knowing he can turn on the refugee flow to Germany any time he feels like it? Last time she was offering to let him in the EU, not kick him out of NATO.

    If Merkel cared about too many refugees, she could stop them herself with or without Turkey’s help. It just takes will and guts.

  15. @IHTG
    Sorry, I can't resist - Erdogan wants Trump to win too.

    Erdogan loves Bibi, too.

    Why has Erdogan, the man who never missed an opportunity during the last few years to regularly berate and curse Israel at political rallies, and turned to a cheek to the blatant anti-Semitism filling the pages of Turkey’s pro-government press, suddenly changed to a leader that just last January stated, “Israel is in need of a country like Turkey in the region. We have to admit that we also need Israel”?

    Make Gaza safe again!

    • Replies: @bomag
    Linked from the article, about last month's Israel-Turkey agreement:

    "I don't run the country by tweets or headlines, but by the interests of the nation. I heard people talking about national pride. I see that world leaders respect those who try to advance his national interests." (Netanyahu)

    Too bad we can't get leaders like this.

  16. @Anonymous
    Yeah maybe should get our nukes out of Turkey.

    Should have been done years ago.

    • Replies: @Realist
    The nukes should never have been there.
  17. Oh, there’s nothing to see here. Just the Muslim in Chief trying to back-channel a few nuclear weapons to ISIS.

  18. He’s flexing his muscles.

    He’s giving the U.S. the middle-finger and scaring the pants off those effeminate Europeans. He knows we won’t do squat and neither will Europe because we failed the test he gave us – namely dumping all those Muzzie bums on us.

    Politics abhor a vacuum and he’s filling it.

    It would not be surprising if behind the scenes he’s demanding hush money from us and Germany. He has to look at the U.S. and Germany being nothing more than a bunch of fat, rich clowns given the way we do things. Do any of you think he has respect for that moldy old lunatic female in Berlin or that snide clown in the White House? He doesn’t.

    Really this was bound to happen as the U.S. began to implode politically. I think he’s figured out the U.S. is run by Ivy League imbeciles.

    • Replies: @bomag
    You're too kind.
  19. They “sealed” off the airbase because Erdogan doesn’t want to upset the Americans . They , we , are his allies in the war against civilization . The civilization that the white man , our ancestors sacrificed to create .

  20. @Divine Right
    The article states that a US general is expected at the base very shortly. This may be a move to block angry Turk protesters from storming the base in response. Earlier in the week, a protest against the US was staged outside of Incirlik.

    What possible use could a “US general” , f**king stooge , traitor do to save the Incirlik Air Base ? It was never in any danger in the first place . 10 to 1 the US was in on this from the start . Our government despises a free thinking free man .

  21. American news media:

    “Is Erdogan good or bad for the leftist project in America. Was the attempted coup puppeteered by Obama? Or did Obama squelch it? Or did Obama instigate it but it failed? Are we supposed to defend Gulen? Or undermine Gulen? Is Turkey part of team people of color? It seems like Erdogan’s people are committing war crimes, but only badwhite countries can do that right? Is Erdogan good or bad for Putin?

    Please explain this all to us and give us our marching orders so we can spin…err…report on the story appropriately!”

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  22. I don’t really care who rules Turkey or whether or not said ruler arrests and executes dissidents, but I’m glad we can finally stop pretending that nation has ever been a friend to Europe or the West in general.

  23. This weekend Erdogan is flying supporters from Turkey to Cologne on the national airline to join a counter-demonstration against anti-Erdogan Turks living in Germany.

    Stupid question, I know, given the broader context of German open immigration, but why are the Germans letting the would-be demonstrators in?

    I’m pretty sure that in the US, if the USCIS knew that hundreds of foreign tourists were flying in from overseas to join possibly riotous demonstrations in the streets of, say, Philadelphia, that they would be refused admission upon landing and sent back. Even here in our very tolerant system, the First Amendment doesn’t apply until you are inside the border.

  24. Thank you Mr. Sailer for keeping us abreast of this issue. I would think that the sequestering of one of our bases (even if shared, still, a base with our personnel and equipment including nukes) by the host country would qualify as leading news, but what do I know? I never went to one of those high faluting J schools. I’m sure the families of these troops want to see and hear their loved ones again, soon. Please continue.

  25. After the insane hand wringing over Crimea and other Russian actions … Turkey is actually of some strategic importance.

    It’s the only way in or out of the Black Sea. And the over reaching NATO expansion has just brought more baggage. But Turkey is actually important.

  26. @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    “they were useless without the secret code”

    Not exactly.

    • Replies: @tbraton
    If my understanding is incorrect, then my general conclusion about the foolishness of having nuclear weapons on foreign soil is reinforced. Boomstick in message #27 appears to disagree with your statement, but I really don't know. He touches on a possible justification for maintaining such weapons in NATO countries, which calls my earlier conclusion into question, but I'm not sure I buy it.
  27. @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    I too am both astounded and dismayed that the U.S. has nuclear weapons in Turkey. Somehow, foolish me, I thought that they had gone when John Kennedy agreed to remove Jupiter missiles as part of the Cuban missile crisis resolution. What other possible target could there be save Russia?

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    They're part of the non-proliferation strategy. If the weapons weren't there the Turks would have every incentive to develop their own, and as the events of the last few years in Turkey have shown, that would be a Really Bad Idea. Ditto for Germany and Italy.

    If NATO falls apart I'd expect to see interest in indigenous nuclear weapons by Poland and some other nations.
    , @Connecticut Famer
    "What other possible target could there be save Russia?"

    This is not a comforting thought in as much as Nurse Ratched, in an effort to flash imaginary gonads, is trying to paint Vlad as a second Hitler and Rooshia as an emerging Fourth Reich. Vlad has seven thousand nuclear tipped missiles, some with our name on 'em no doubt. And I suspect that Trump, for all his bullshit bluster, is well aware of this, which may explain (in part at least) why he wants to make nice-nice with Vlad.

    Which raises the subject of the alleged Rooshian-hacked DNC emails. Hmmm... .
  28. @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    The weapons have Permissive Action Links (PALs) that prevent their use without a code, and disable the weapon if the code is not correctly entered after a certain number of attempts.

    The weapons are part of the US nuclear NATO guarantee. Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey provide delivery systems, and the US stores the weapons on host country bases, guarded by US personnel, with US PALs and under US command and control. If the Rooskies invade the US provides the codes and the NATO allies deliver the weapons.

    The intent is to both discourage nuclear weapon development by the likes of Italy and to provide them with reassurance that the US nuclear umbrella extends to them.

    The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the way to Turkey. If the nukes at Incirlik are withdrawn that would be a pretty good sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US, and probably indicate a Russian/Turkish agreement about the Middle East that is not favorable for the US.

    The Turks seizing the weapons is about half a step short of Armageddon. Maybe a quarter step.

    • Replies: @Louis Renault

    sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US
     
    Turkey is a sovereign country. There is no strategic reason for the US to defend the Islamic country Turkey is becoming. The Russians invade Turkey? What the hell for? Perhaps you'd enlighten us with the reason's we need to make the Russian's an enemy one more time.
    , @Pericles
    After three failed attempts at entering the code, you will need to answer the personal question in order to proceed. (Obama's dog is named Bo, btw.)
    , @SteveRogers42
    Boomer, you sound like you know your stuff. What is the general state of physical security at nuke storage sites? I am under the impression that the Air Police have a fairly robust presence at those bases and have a very aggressive ROE once a threat materializes. It doesn't seem likely that they would meekly allow the Turks (or anyone else) to waltz onto a U.S. base and steal nuclear weapons, and their resistance would gain time for other U.S. assets to enter the fray.
  29. @Anon
    Merkel is a case, definitely, but Germany has already been 'refugeed.' Erdogan's done most of the damage he can do to Germany. At this point, Merkel's career is looking shakier, and she probably has several advisers in her own party telling her that it's time to kick out Erdogan, and saying her--and their--political future depends on it. At the very least, the German military is undoubtedly telling her they can't trust Erdogan farther than they can throw him.

    “the German military” lol .

    Just before the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 , someone expressed his concern about the British army landing in Northern Germany and taking the Germans in the flank . The Iron Chancellor replied that he would send a policeman to arrest them . Today we can have a good laugh at the expense of what was once the most professional army in the world .

    • Replies: @Cwhatfuture
    Yes but Germans still probably make the best soldiers in the world. Even Moshe Dayan said that. In the future German Muslim "civil war", my money is on the Germans.
  30. @Anonymous
    Yeah maybe should get our nukes out of Turkey.

    Maybe we should get our troops out of Turkey altogether as well as Europe the ME and Asia .

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Guard Fortress America's borders as the world burns down.
  31. @Diversity Heretic
    I too am both astounded and dismayed that the U.S. has nuclear weapons in Turkey. Somehow, foolish me, I thought that they had gone when John Kennedy agreed to remove Jupiter missiles as part of the Cuban missile crisis resolution. What other possible target could there be save Russia?

    They’re part of the non-proliferation strategy. If the weapons weren’t there the Turks would have every incentive to develop their own, and as the events of the last few years in Turkey have shown, that would be a Really Bad Idea. Ditto for Germany and Italy.

    If NATO falls apart I’d expect to see interest in indigenous nuclear weapons by Poland and some other nations.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    You mean, like "We have to let Muslims in otherwise the ones already here will get mad and become terrorists"?
    , @Cwhatfuture
    I find it hard to believe that if Sultan Erdogan the First wanted nuclear weapons, for prestige purposes, the presence of US controlled nukes on Turkish soil would dissuade him. I could see him being tepted to seize those US weapons, as a possible shortcut technically. Wouldn't the uranium be usable even if the weapons themselves would not be?
    , @Bies Podkrakowski
    I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some nuclear technology can be cheaply bought?
  32. @Anon
    Merkel is a case, definitely, but Germany has already been 'refugeed.' Erdogan's done most of the damage he can do to Germany. At this point, Merkel's career is looking shakier, and she probably has several advisers in her own party telling her that it's time to kick out Erdogan, and saying her--and their--political future depends on it. At the very least, the German military is undoubtedly telling her they can't trust Erdogan farther than they can throw him.

    ” Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany.” WTF? No one has done more damage to Germany than the viper Merkle .

  33. @Louis Renault
    Should have been done years ago.

    The nukes should never have been there.

  34. Rather about time to remove the nukes from allah Akbar! land. Hell, just scrap the things altogether.

  35. @gcochran
    "they were useless without the secret code"

    Not exactly.

    If my understanding is incorrect, then my general conclusion about the foolishness of having nuclear weapons on foreign soil is reinforced. Boomstick in message #27 appears to disagree with your statement, but I really don’t know. He touches on a possible justification for maintaining such weapons in NATO countries, which calls my earlier conclusion into question, but I’m not sure I buy it.

  36. @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    “… that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.”

    They weren’t exactly surrendered to just anybody. Even if you have a weapon with a useless trigger or one that has been misdetonated to disable it, you still have a certain amount of weapons grade fissile materials and useful components that a reasonably good but hostile engineer can put to use.

    • Replies: @tbraton
    "They weren’t exactly surrendered to just anybody."

    I merely said they were surrendered. Unz.com being known far and wide as a high IQ site, I just assumed that anybody who read my message would know that Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons to the Russians, who, in turn, turned over the extracted nuclear material to the U.S. I think. given a choice between Ukraine possessing operational ICBMs and Ukraine possessing the nuclear material extracted from warheads, would choose the latter without hesitation, but fortunately it did not have to make that choice.
    , @Anon
    Isn't an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?
    , @pyrrhus
    Yes, there is going to be a lot of fissionable material in these warheads. But if they have had their triggers removed, what in the world are they doing sitting in Turkey?
  37. @Boomstick
    The weapons have Permissive Action Links (PALs) that prevent their use without a code, and disable the weapon if the code is not correctly entered after a certain number of attempts.

    The weapons are part of the US nuclear NATO guarantee. Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey provide delivery systems, and the US stores the weapons on host country bases, guarded by US personnel, with US PALs and under US command and control. If the Rooskies invade the US provides the codes and the NATO allies deliver the weapons.

    The intent is to both discourage nuclear weapon development by the likes of Italy and to provide them with reassurance that the US nuclear umbrella extends to them.

    The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the way to Turkey. If the nukes at Incirlik are withdrawn that would be a pretty good sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US, and probably indicate a Russian/Turkish agreement about the Middle East that is not favorable for the US.

    The Turks seizing the weapons is about half a step short of Armageddon. Maybe a quarter step.

    sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US

    Turkey is a sovereign country. There is no strategic reason for the US to defend the Islamic country Turkey is becoming. The Russians invade Turkey? What the hell for? Perhaps you’d enlighten us with the reason’s we need to make the Russian’s an enemy one more time.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    1796: "When you see Russia, take back, The Crimea, Messiah is coming soon.
    When you see Russian Troops, in Istanbul, but on your Sabbath Clothes,
    For Messiah, will be here, shortly."

    From the 5 first books of the Bible Code.

    For all of you sitting on the Fence, about the Chicken, or the Egg, & whether or not we were created, or there is self creation,

    Noah's Ark has been found on Mt. Ararat, A Volcano, buried in Ash.
    The Nephilim, Their tombs, have been uncovered.
    No other country in the world, has ever come back after 2000 years.
    Israel, fulfilled this prophecy, in '48. & not one generation will pass.
    The One World Currency, is being put in place. The Dollar is out.

    They are coming for the Jews & Gentiles Gold, & Land.

    Wake Up!
  38. There are as many nukes in Incirlik as there are kilos of gold in Fort Knox.

  39. @The Alarmist

    "... that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code."
     
    They weren't exactly surrendered to just anybody. Even if you have a weapon with a useless trigger or one that has been misdetonated to disable it, you still have a certain amount of weapons grade fissile materials and useful components that a reasonably good but hostile engineer can put to use.

    “They weren’t exactly surrendered to just anybody.”

    I merely said they were surrendered. Unz.com being known far and wide as a high IQ site, I just assumed that anybody who read my message would know that Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons to the Russians, who, in turn, turned over the extracted nuclear material to the U.S. I think. given a choice between Ukraine possessing operational ICBMs and Ukraine possessing the nuclear material extracted from warheads, would choose the latter without hesitation, but fortunately it did not have to make that choice.

  40. @Matra
    Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany.

    Maybe he can do more. This weekend Erdogan is flying supporters from Turkey to Cologne on the national airline to join a counter-demonstration against anti-Erdogan Turks living in Germany. Up to 30K people are expected on the streets of Cologne later today (Sunday). Nearly 3K local and federal police with water cannon are preparing for street clashes. The authorities also expect local far right activists to show up too. We'll see if it makes Sunday night's news.

    It has already made news, since the protest has been prohibited. Germany and Turkey are now at daggers drawn (and it had to come to this, considering whom Germany and Merkel obey to, and the new course taken by Erdogan).

  41. @The Alarmist

    "... that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code."
     
    They weren't exactly surrendered to just anybody. Even if you have a weapon with a useless trigger or one that has been misdetonated to disable it, you still have a certain amount of weapons grade fissile materials and useful components that a reasonably good but hostile engineer can put to use.

    Isn’t an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    It would be simpler to build a dirty bomb from other radiological source material.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Isn’t an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?
     
    Well, yeah, I guess. But its a bit like burning bundles of $100 bills in order to keep warm, when you could just go buy some firewood.
  42. @Pat Hannagan
    Erdogan loves Bibi, too.

    Why has Erdogan, the man who never missed an opportunity during the last few years to regularly berate and curse Israel at political rallies, and turned to a cheek to the blatant anti-Semitism filling the pages of Turkey’s pro-government press, suddenly changed to a leader that just last January stated, “Israel is in need of a country like Turkey in the region. We have to admit that we also need Israel”?

    Make Gaza safe again!

    Linked from the article, about last month’s Israel-Turkey agreement:

    “I don’t run the country by tweets or headlines, but by the interests of the nation. I heard people talking about national pride. I see that world leaders respect those who try to advance his national interests.” (Netanyahu)

    Too bad we can’t get leaders like this.

  43. @rod1963
    He's flexing his muscles.

    He's giving the U.S. the middle-finger and scaring the pants off those effeminate Europeans. He knows we won't do squat and neither will Europe because we failed the test he gave us - namely dumping all those Muzzie bums on us.

    Politics abhor a vacuum and he's filling it.

    It would not be surprising if behind the scenes he's demanding hush money from us and Germany. He has to look at the U.S. and Germany being nothing more than a bunch of fat, rich clowns given the way we do things. Do any of you think he has respect for that moldy old lunatic female in Berlin or that snide clown in the White House? He doesn't.

    Really this was bound to happen as the U.S. began to implode politically. I think he's figured out the U.S. is run by Ivy League imbeciles.

    You’re too kind.

  44. @Boomstick
    They're part of the non-proliferation strategy. If the weapons weren't there the Turks would have every incentive to develop their own, and as the events of the last few years in Turkey have shown, that would be a Really Bad Idea. Ditto for Germany and Italy.

    If NATO falls apart I'd expect to see interest in indigenous nuclear weapons by Poland and some other nations.

    You mean, like “We have to let Muslims in otherwise the ones already here will get mad and become terrorists”?

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    No.

    During the Cold War there were two choices. Several NATO nations could develop their own nukes, including the Germans, which would have made the Soviets go insane. Or the outcome that was settled upon, which is that the US provides nukes under US command and control, while the NATO country provides the delivery system. The second was the better choice of the two.

    Turkey with its own nukes, completely outside of US control, regular coups every ten years, and the prospect of an Islamist government eventually subduing the secular military, Ergodan style, would give any rational person pause. Particularly if the Turks carelessly detonated one during some NATO/Warsaw Pact confrontation, leading to a general exchange of thermonuclear weapons.
  45. @Divine Right
    The article states that a US general is expected at the base very shortly. This may be a move to block angry Turk protesters from storming the base in response. Earlier in the week, a protest against the US was staged outside of Incirlik.

    Not just “a U.S. general” but the four-star Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest-ranking military officer in the United States Armed Forces.

  46. @The Alarmist

    "... that was why it didn’t matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code."
     
    They weren't exactly surrendered to just anybody. Even if you have a weapon with a useless trigger or one that has been misdetonated to disable it, you still have a certain amount of weapons grade fissile materials and useful components that a reasonably good but hostile engineer can put to use.

    Yes, there is going to be a lot of fissionable material in these warheads. But if they have had their triggers removed, what in the world are they doing sitting in Turkey?

  47. @Diversity Heretic
    I too am both astounded and dismayed that the U.S. has nuclear weapons in Turkey. Somehow, foolish me, I thought that they had gone when John Kennedy agreed to remove Jupiter missiles as part of the Cuban missile crisis resolution. What other possible target could there be save Russia?

    “What other possible target could there be save Russia?”

    This is not a comforting thought in as much as Nurse Ratched, in an effort to flash imaginary gonads, is trying to paint Vlad as a second Hitler and Rooshia as an emerging Fourth Reich. Vlad has seven thousand nuclear tipped missiles, some with our name on ’em no doubt. And I suspect that Trump, for all his bullshit bluster, is well aware of this, which may explain (in part at least) why he wants to make nice-nice with Vlad.

    Which raises the subject of the alleged Rooshian-hacked DNC emails. Hmmm… .

  48. A round ten days ago I heard that the nuclear weapons in Turkey would be moved to British bases in Cyprus. There are also very sensitive military hardware and intel assets that need to be moved.

    Turkey has 40,000 troops that have illegally been in Cyprus since 1974. Hopefully they’ll be forced to leave.

    Turkey’s membership in NATO should be suspended.

    Erdoğan is anti-Russian but the only way he survives is by making peace with Putin. Capital has been leaving Turkey for a decade and the economy is in shambles. Putin controls energy pipelines that enter Turkey from the Caspian Sea. If those spigots were turned off and Putin armed the Kurds Erdoğan would be toast.

    Russia needs Turkey to keep the Bosphorus Strait open and Putin will want Erdoğan to quit supporting the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front and ISIS in Syria. This might lead to a big military defeat for the Sunni extremists which would politically benefit Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    Interestingly enough the British bases in Cyprus are British sovereign territory. Cyprus is a great location for an airbase, and when Cyprus was granted independence in 1960 the British insisted on retaining base areas as sovereign territory when no oversight necessary from the host government.
  49. “And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes ”

    I think it’s insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate.

    My hunch is that there are no atomic bombs at Incerlik. The bombs may have been flown out of Incerlik decades ago. There are obvious power political reasons why this removal has never been been publicized. The Turks may never have been told that the nu-klur bombs are gone.

    Shorter range fighter planes need the Incerlik air base for operations over Syria and western Iraq.

    The present day U.S. mil. has no practical need to launch atomic bomb air strikes or missile attacks from Incerlik. American armed forces still have enough long range missiles and bombers to make nuclear war on Russia, should Doomsday come.

    Basing medium range missiles in Turkey to nuke the USSR dates back to the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. Putting nukes in Turkey was a counter to the Soviets basing missiles in Cuba.

    I think it’s insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country.

    Why is that insane?

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    The US weapons in Turkey are B-61 gravity bombs intended to be delivered by Turkish tactical aircraft. They're tactical nukes, not strategic weapons. The intended use is against a hypothetical Soviet tank army invading Turkey, not bombing Moscow.
  50. Does this count as a foreign power attempting to interfere in an US election?

  51. @donut
    "the German military" lol .

    Just before the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 , someone expressed his concern about the British army landing in Northern Germany and taking the Germans in the flank . The Iron Chancellor replied that he would send a policeman to arrest them . Today we can have a good laugh at the expense of what was once the most professional army in the world .

    Yes but Germans still probably make the best soldiers in the world. Even Moshe Dayan said that. In the future German Muslim “civil war”, my money is on the Germans.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Germans still probably make the best soldiers in the world
     
    Back in the '70s and '80s, the opinion that U.S. and U.K. military professionals had of their NATO Bundeswehr comrades-in-arms was that they were long haired softies, in no way comparable to the Wehrmacht of old.

    Things may have improved somewhat after Afghanistan, but opinion seems not to be that they "make the best soldiers in the world."

    Some of the regulars on this board likely have far more knowledge than I do.

    https://warisboring.com/has-the-german-army-gone-soft-f47dcb14d490#.f6fuzppvi

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/06/26/german-soldiers-can-t-shoot.html

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/how-afghanistan-has-changed-the-bundeswehr-german-military-a-927891.html

  52. @Boomstick
    They're part of the non-proliferation strategy. If the weapons weren't there the Turks would have every incentive to develop their own, and as the events of the last few years in Turkey have shown, that would be a Really Bad Idea. Ditto for Germany and Italy.

    If NATO falls apart I'd expect to see interest in indigenous nuclear weapons by Poland and some other nations.

    I find it hard to believe that if Sultan Erdogan the First wanted nuclear weapons, for prestige purposes, the presence of US controlled nukes on Turkish soil would dissuade him. I could see him being tepted to seize those US weapons, as a possible shortcut technically. Wouldn’t the uranium be usable even if the weapons themselves would not be?

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    The point of basing the bombs there was to remove the desire of the Turks to own nukes of their own for the purpose of deterring a Russian invasion. If the Turkish objectives change from that to something else--say, deterring the US, or facing down Iran--then the utility of the shared custody weapons decreases, and the Turks have more of a reason to make their own.

    The details of PALs are highly classified. The claim is that

    https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html

    There are two basic means of foiling any lock, from an automobile ignition switch to a PAL: the first is to pick it, and the second is to bypass it. From the very beginning of the development of PAL technology, it was recognized that the real challenge was to build a system that afforded protection against the latter threat. Rather than attempting to build an indestructible lock, scientists at Livermore Laboratory in 1961 directed their efforts towards constructing a system that would render a weapon unusable if an attempt was made to interfere with its PAL. By 1964, it had been demonstrated that this approach would work. The design was perfected and incorporated into weapons that utilize CAT D and CAT F PALs. With this system, the insertion of too many false codes or an attempt to bypass the PAL will render the weapon permanently inoperative, and the weapon must then be returned to the weapons plant for reassembly. The protective system is designed to foil the probes of the most sophisticated unauthorized user. It is currently believed that even someone who gained possession of such a weapon, had a set of drawings, and enjoyed the technical capability of one of the national laboratories would be unable to successfully cause a detonation without knowing the code.
     
    Also, don't underestimate the utility of an E4 with a block of C4 in preventing weapon compromise. That would reduce the utility of the fissile material by scattering it all over the bunker.
  53. @donut
    Maybe we should get our troops out of Turkey altogether as well as Europe the ME and Asia .

    Guard Fortress America’s borders as the world burns down.

    • Replies: @donut
    There's always the possibility that they would take responsibility for their own defense as they did for most of history .
  54. @Boomstick
    They're part of the non-proliferation strategy. If the weapons weren't there the Turks would have every incentive to develop their own, and as the events of the last few years in Turkey have shown, that would be a Really Bad Idea. Ditto for Germany and Italy.

    If NATO falls apart I'd expect to see interest in indigenous nuclear weapons by Poland and some other nations.

    I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some nuclear technology can be cheaply bought?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some ...."
     
    Reminds me of the scene in Star Trek IV (The Journey Home), where Kirk and gang go back to the US in the 1980s to grab a couple whales and bring them back to the future, but at one point they need nuclear materials, so they send Chekov to the nearest naval base where, in his thick Russian accent, he asks where he can find the "Nuclear Wessels."

    If you weren't already on NSA's watch list, you are now ... smile for the camera ;)
  55. @Boomstick
    The weapons have Permissive Action Links (PALs) that prevent their use without a code, and disable the weapon if the code is not correctly entered after a certain number of attempts.

    The weapons are part of the US nuclear NATO guarantee. Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey provide delivery systems, and the US stores the weapons on host country bases, guarded by US personnel, with US PALs and under US command and control. If the Rooskies invade the US provides the codes and the NATO allies deliver the weapons.

    The intent is to both discourage nuclear weapon development by the likes of Italy and to provide them with reassurance that the US nuclear umbrella extends to them.

    The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the way to Turkey. If the nukes at Incirlik are withdrawn that would be a pretty good sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US, and probably indicate a Russian/Turkish agreement about the Middle East that is not favorable for the US.

    The Turks seizing the weapons is about half a step short of Armageddon. Maybe a quarter step.

    After three failed attempts at entering the code, you will need to answer the personal question in order to proceed. (Obama’s dog is named Bo, btw.)

    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "After three failed attempts at entering the code, you will need to answer the personal question in order to proceed. (Obama’s dog is named Bo, btw.)"
     
    They've recently upgraded the systems by adding Captacha, but people have been having difficulty with it.
  56. @Cwhatfuture
    I find it hard to believe that if Sultan Erdogan the First wanted nuclear weapons, for prestige purposes, the presence of US controlled nukes on Turkish soil would dissuade him. I could see him being tepted to seize those US weapons, as a possible shortcut technically. Wouldn't the uranium be usable even if the weapons themselves would not be?

    The point of basing the bombs there was to remove the desire of the Turks to own nukes of their own for the purpose of deterring a Russian invasion. If the Turkish objectives change from that to something else–say, deterring the US, or facing down Iran–then the utility of the shared custody weapons decreases, and the Turks have more of a reason to make their own.

    The details of PALs are highly classified. The claim is that

    https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html

    There are two basic means of foiling any lock, from an automobile ignition switch to a PAL: the first is to pick it, and the second is to bypass it. From the very beginning of the development of PAL technology, it was recognized that the real challenge was to build a system that afforded protection against the latter threat. Rather than attempting to build an indestructible lock, scientists at Livermore Laboratory in 1961 directed their efforts towards constructing a system that would render a weapon unusable if an attempt was made to interfere with its PAL. By 1964, it had been demonstrated that this approach would work. The design was perfected and incorporated into weapons that utilize CAT D and CAT F PALs. With this system, the insertion of too many false codes or an attempt to bypass the PAL will render the weapon permanently inoperative, and the weapon must then be returned to the weapons plant for reassembly. The protective system is designed to foil the probes of the most sophisticated unauthorized user. It is currently believed that even someone who gained possession of such a weapon, had a set of drawings, and enjoyed the technical capability of one of the national laboratories would be unable to successfully cause a detonation without knowing the code.

    Also, don’t underestimate the utility of an E4 with a block of C4 in preventing weapon compromise. That would reduce the utility of the fissile material by scattering it all over the bunker.

  57. @Bies Podkrakowski
    I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some nuclear technology can be cheaply bought?

    “I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some ….”

    Reminds me of the scene in Star Trek IV (The Journey Home), where Kirk and gang go back to the US in the 1980s to grab a couple whales and bring them back to the future, but at one point they need nuclear materials, so they send Chekov to the nearest naval base where, in his thick Russian accent, he asks where he can find the “Nuclear Wessels.”

    If you weren’t already on NSA’s watch list, you are now … smile for the camera 😉

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    I thought every commenter here was already on potential domestic subversive and/or potential foreign terrorist list?

    Also, I've just read that our government had finally decided to embrace The Power of Atom! and build nuclear power plants in the coming decade. So, suddenly I don't need cheap nuclear technology so badly :)
  58. @Pericles
    After three failed attempts at entering the code, you will need to answer the personal question in order to proceed. (Obama's dog is named Bo, btw.)

    “After three failed attempts at entering the code, you will need to answer the personal question in order to proceed. (Obama’s dog is named Bo, btw.)”

    They’ve recently upgraded the systems by adding Captacha, but people have been having difficulty with it.

  59. @Adam Grant
    A round ten days ago I heard that the nuclear weapons in Turkey would be moved to British bases in Cyprus. There are also very sensitive military hardware and intel assets that need to be moved.

    Turkey has 40,000 troops that have illegally been in Cyprus since 1974. Hopefully they'll be forced to leave.

    Turkey's membership in NATO should be suspended.

    Erdoğan is anti-Russian but the only way he survives is by making peace with Putin. Capital has been leaving Turkey for a decade and the economy is in shambles. Putin controls energy pipelines that enter Turkey from the Caspian Sea. If those spigots were turned off and Putin armed the Kurds Erdoğan would be toast.

    Russia needs Turkey to keep the Bosphorus Strait open and Putin will want Erdoğan to quit supporting the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front and ISIS in Syria. This might lead to a big military defeat for the Sunni extremists which would politically benefit Hillary Clinton's campaign.

    Interestingly enough the British bases in Cyprus are British sovereign territory. Cyprus is a great location for an airbase, and when Cyprus was granted independence in 1960 the British insisted on retaining base areas as sovereign territory when no oversight necessary from the host government.

  60. @James O'Meara
    You mean, like "We have to let Muslims in otherwise the ones already here will get mad and become terrorists"?

    No.

    During the Cold War there were two choices. Several NATO nations could develop their own nukes, including the Germans, which would have made the Soviets go insane. Or the outcome that was settled upon, which is that the US provides nukes under US command and control, while the NATO country provides the delivery system. The second was the better choice of the two.

    Turkey with its own nukes, completely outside of US control, regular coups every ten years, and the prospect of an Islamist government eventually subduing the secular military, Ergodan style, would give any rational person pause. Particularly if the Turks carelessly detonated one during some NATO/Warsaw Pact confrontation, leading to a general exchange of thermonuclear weapons.

  61. @Matra
    Erdogan’s done most of the damage he can do to Germany.

    Maybe he can do more. This weekend Erdogan is flying supporters from Turkey to Cologne on the national airline to join a counter-demonstration against anti-Erdogan Turks living in Germany. Up to 30K people are expected on the streets of Cologne later today (Sunday). Nearly 3K local and federal police with water cannon are preparing for street clashes. The authorities also expect local far right activists to show up too. We'll see if it makes Sunday night's news.

    Absurd situation. Why on earth should Germany allow a single one of these people off the plane?

  62. @tbraton
    "And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, "

    I think it's insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate. I believe that was the arrangement Russia had with Ukraine when the USSR still existed and that was why it didn't matter that Ukraine surrendered those nuclear weapons, since they were useless without the secret code.

    > I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate

    ….but the agit-prop scoring points do not.

  63. @Cwhatfuture
    Yes but Germans still probably make the best soldiers in the world. Even Moshe Dayan said that. In the future German Muslim "civil war", my money is on the Germans.

    Germans still probably make the best soldiers in the world

    Back in the ’70s and ’80s, the opinion that U.S. and U.K. military professionals had of their NATO Bundeswehr comrades-in-arms was that they were long haired softies, in no way comparable to the Wehrmacht of old.

    Things may have improved somewhat after Afghanistan, but opinion seems not to be that they “make the best soldiers in the world.”

    Some of the regulars on this board likely have far more knowledge than I do.

    https://warisboring.com/has-the-german-army-gone-soft-f47dcb14d490#.f6fuzppvi

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/06/26/german-soldiers-can-t-shoot.html

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/how-afghanistan-has-changed-the-bundeswehr-german-military-a-927891.html

  64. @Anon
    Isn't an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?

    It would be simpler to build a dirty bomb from other radiological source material.

  65. @David Davenport
    “And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes ”

    I think it’s insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country, but I would think that any such nuclear weapons would require a secret code to activate.


    My hunch is that there are no atomic bombs at Incerlik. The bombs may have been flown out of Incerlik decades ago. There are obvious power political reasons why this removal has never been been publicized. The Turks may never have been told that the nu-klur bombs are gone.

    Shorter range fighter planes need the Incerlik air base for operations over Syria and western Iraq.

    The present day U.S. mil. has no practical need to launch atomic bomb air strikes or missile attacks from Incerlik. American armed forces still have enough long range missiles and bombers to make nuclear war on Russia, should Doomsday come.

    Basing medium range missiles in Turkey to nuke the USSR dates back to the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. Putting nukes in Turkey was a counter to the Soviets basing missiles in Cuba.

    I think it’s insane that we have any nuclear weapons in Turkey or any other NATO country.

    Why is that insane?

    The US weapons in Turkey are B-61 gravity bombs intended to be delivered by Turkish tactical aircraft. They’re tactical nukes, not strategic weapons. The intended use is against a hypothetical Soviet tank army invading Turkey, not bombing Moscow.

  66. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Guard Fortress America's borders as the world burns down.

    There’s always the possibility that they would take responsibility for their own defense as they did for most of history .

  67. The US weapons in Turkey are B-61 gravity bombs intended to be delivered by Turkish tactical aircraft.

    I don’t believe that. Or maybe the Turks were told that, bit the bombs weren’t actually there.

  68. @The Alarmist

    "I am already very interested. Maybe do you know where some ...."
     
    Reminds me of the scene in Star Trek IV (The Journey Home), where Kirk and gang go back to the US in the 1980s to grab a couple whales and bring them back to the future, but at one point they need nuclear materials, so they send Chekov to the nearest naval base where, in his thick Russian accent, he asks where he can find the "Nuclear Wessels."

    If you weren't already on NSA's watch list, you are now ... smile for the camera ;)

    I thought every commenter here was already on potential domestic subversive and/or potential foreign terrorist list?

    Also, I’ve just read that our government had finally decided to embrace The Power of Atom! and build nuclear power plants in the coming decade. So, suddenly I don’t need cheap nuclear technology so badly 🙂

  69. @Boomstick
    The weapons have Permissive Action Links (PALs) that prevent their use without a code, and disable the weapon if the code is not correctly entered after a certain number of attempts.

    The weapons are part of the US nuclear NATO guarantee. Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey provide delivery systems, and the US stores the weapons on host country bases, guarded by US personnel, with US PALs and under US command and control. If the Rooskies invade the US provides the codes and the NATO allies deliver the weapons.

    The intent is to both discourage nuclear weapon development by the likes of Italy and to provide them with reassurance that the US nuclear umbrella extends to them.

    The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the way to Turkey. If the nukes at Incirlik are withdrawn that would be a pretty good sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US, and probably indicate a Russian/Turkish agreement about the Middle East that is not favorable for the US.

    The Turks seizing the weapons is about half a step short of Armageddon. Maybe a quarter step.

    Boomer, you sound like you know your stuff. What is the general state of physical security at nuke storage sites? I am under the impression that the Air Police have a fairly robust presence at those bases and have a very aggressive ROE once a threat materializes. It doesn’t seem likely that they would meekly allow the Turks (or anyone else) to waltz onto a U.S. base and steal nuclear weapons, and their resistance would gain time for other U.S. assets to enter the fray.

  70. @Anon
    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase. Once you've gone full coup, you really can't allow some other country--especially one you've just ticked off--to have a military base on your territory. It's the natural place to begin the staging of Erdogan's overthrow, and he knows it. He knows he's just made himself the villain of the story, and he's dumb and reckless enough to try it.

    NATO is probably going to decide they simply can't afford a blackmailing, terrorist-promoting, grafting, nutjob dictator who is maltreating and arresting huge masses of his own people in its alliance anymore. I'm positive they're in talks with some of the remaining Turkish military leaders, who may be having second thoughts about not joining the coup in the first place. The mass arrests throughout their own society may have startled and dismayed them. I doubt the military expected Erdogan to go that far. If you add up all the arrested people and give each person a social network of at least dozen other people, Erdogan has infuriated vast numbers of persons who might have supported him if he hadn't been so vindictive and paranoid. There are too many people who now have a grudge against him for his regime to ever be stable again.

    And if Obama lets Erdogan seize the base and get the nukes, he and the Democrats are going to be utterly humililated in the eyes of the American public. Obama is weak, stupid, and appeasing enough to let Erdogan do it to avoid 'annoying' him.

    I suspect rumors of a second coup attempt are simply Erdogan coming up with an excuse to seize the airbase.

    I doubt Erdogan would wish to go to war with the USA. And seeing as how the Incirlik base contains atomic warheads (despite the reckless foolishness on our part that fact may indicate), that would mean a real war. Perhaps Erdogan really is that maniacal, but I’m inclined to doubt it.

  71. @Anon
    Isn't an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?

    Isn’t an inoperable nuke a really good way to build a dirty bomb?

    Well, yeah, I guess. But its a bit like burning bundles of $100 bills in order to keep warm, when you could just go buy some firewood.

  72. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Louis Renault

    sign that the Turks are planning on leaving NATO. Needless to say, that would be a strategic debacle for the US
     
    Turkey is a sovereign country. There is no strategic reason for the US to defend the Islamic country Turkey is becoming. The Russians invade Turkey? What the hell for? Perhaps you'd enlighten us with the reason's we need to make the Russian's an enemy one more time.

    1796: “When you see Russia, take back, The Crimea, Messiah is coming soon.
    When you see Russian Troops, in Istanbul, but on your Sabbath Clothes,
    For Messiah, will be here, shortly.”

    From the 5 first books of the Bible Code.

    For all of you sitting on the Fence, about the Chicken, or the Egg, & whether or not we were created, or there is self creation,

    Noah’s Ark has been found on Mt. Ararat, A Volcano, buried in Ash.
    The Nephilim, Their tombs, have been uncovered.
    No other country in the world, has ever come back after 2000 years.
    Israel, fulfilled this prophecy, in ’48. & not one generation will pass.
    The One World Currency, is being put in place. The Dollar is out.

    They are coming for the Jews & Gentiles Gold, & Land.

    Wake Up!

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