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Whatever Happened to Home Field Advantage in the NFL?
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From the Washington Post:

NFL home-field advantage was endangered before the pandemic. Now it’s almost extinct.

By Adam Kilgore and Neil Greenberg

January 14, 2022|Updated January 14, 2022 at 9:20 p.m. EST

The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.

Visiting teams used to have objective disadvantages such as small, lousy locker rooms, but most more modern stadiums assign ample facilities to visitors. (In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.)

I’m not, however, wholly convinced by this graph that there’s been a permanent decline in home field advantage. NFL home teams won 60% of their games as recently as 2018.

One other thing that is going on is that there have been three recent moves of NFL franchises, all to tourist towns with lots of visitors in the seats rooting for the visiting team: the Rams and Chargers to Los Angeles, and the Raiders to Las Vegas.

 
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  1. The autistic ability to do things despite being socially shamed for them is basically a superpower. I rather suspect progressives absolutely despite autistics for this ability. Plus the tendency to look for corroborating evidence rather than take the word of an “authority.” The second thing drives them absolutely barmy.

    Of course you could instead construct a society where doing additional “shameful” things made you less competent, rather than more. Indeed many ancestors did just that.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Alrenous

    Did you post this in the right place?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Mike Tre, @SaneClownPosse

    , @Inquiring Mind
    @Alrenous


    Cause the players gonna play, play, play, play, play
    And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
    Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
    I shake it off, I shake it off
     
    T. Swift
  2. Crown at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon


    Crow[d] at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.
     
    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn't do much for the Vikings. But they sure helped the Twins, especially in the postseason.

    It does ruin baseball, though. It's only "pastoral" compared to a pasture next to the Interstate.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Up2Drew, @kaganovitch

    , @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Anon

    Went to an NFL game for the first time in over a decade this year, at Sofi Stadium*. Once change I noticed, and hate, is the artificial way they try to pump up crowd noise, especially on 3rd downs for the away team. If a team’s fans can’t be enthusiastic enough to make noise without encouragement, they deserve to lose!

    *My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL...

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @Russ, @Jim Christian

    , @Brutusale
    @Anon

    The real fans have been priced out of the market. Anyone in Boston knows what I mean when I disparage the "pink & green hat" fans!

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Anon

    ThreeFiveFive, Seattle reportedly has the loudest crowd noise, partly because of their stangely shaped stadium, but Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson didn't get it done this year.

    Replies: @animalogic

  3. I recall a “study” about 15 years ago which professed to have carefully studied home field advantage in many different sports and reached the conclusion that the biggest advantage with playing in front of your own cheering partisans is that the crowd influenced the officials/umpires/refs.

    E.g. QB throws the ball in the seats, home crowd bays for a PI call, so refs, being human and hence eager to please the mob, throw yellow marker.

    Perhaps the advent of instant replay has diminished the tendency of the refs to effect the outcome on non-judgment calls such as fumbles or out-of-bounds?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Patrick in SC

    Even if you don’t actually expect to get lynched, you still can’t fully appreciate the impact of a 70k person mob screaming for your head until you’ve faced it for yourself.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Patrick in SC

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can't keep up with the game. Ever watch them back pedalling after spotting the ball before the snap. A few with big arms but they don't run on their hands. Start an internship, players just done with a college career and work them into the mix. And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson

  4. anon[341] • Disclaimer says:

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.

    Yes, but in most, if not all sports, the cheering (and jeering) effect is thought to be mediated largely through officiating. Referees are like everyone else: they like being popular, which leads to implicit bias. The presumed increase in objectivity of officiating in many sports in recent years, via calls based on video replay, may be neutralizing this aspect of home field advantage.

    • Replies: @Director95
    @anon

    I have to commend the officials in the Dallas vs 49's game. They made some tough calls, especially the one ending the game. And they were correct every time even though the call went against Dallas and the fans catterwauled, and puked, and moaned. Too bad, better luck next time.

  5. I imagine there’s a lot less enthusiasm these days with respect to the major professional sports as a result of baseball games taking way too long and basketball/football being overly negrofied. More and more former fans simply don’t give a s*** anymore – thus the proverbial home field advantage is negated. This is most likely the future of “sports”.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @usNthem

    So usNthem, you think there’s “ . . . a lot less enthusiasm” for the NFL? The exact opposite is true. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/18/sports/football/nfl-playoff-ratings.html

  6. One other thing that is going on is that there have been three recent moves of NFL franchises, all to tourist towns with lots of visitors in the seats rooting for the visiting team: the Rams and Chargers to Los Angeles, and the Raiders to Las Vegas.

    I think you’re on to something here. All three of these teams have a better record on the road than at home since they moved.

    LVR 5-4 at home, 5-3 on road since move this year.

    LAC 21-22 at home, 21-21 on road since move in 2017.

    LAR 31-20 at home, 31-18 on road since move in 2016

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @kaganovitch

    I'm interested here in Steve's characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town--and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren't packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I'm wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I'm spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we've done a few times before. It's nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    Replies: @Barnard, @stillCARealist, @kaganovitch, @Emil Nikola Richard

  7. Yes, but in most, if not all sports, the cheering (and jeering) effect is thought to be mediated largely through officiating. Referees are like everyone else: they like being popular, which leads to implicit bias. The presumed increase in objectivity of officiating in many sports in recent years, via calls based on video replay, may be neutralizing this aspect of home field advantage.

    I think your first point is correct.

    Basically, through the 1990’s when the big 6 SEC teams played another of the big 6, the road team covered close to 2/3 of the games because the home-field advantage was so vastly overrated. Then Bobby Gaston retired as head of the SEC officials, and things changed drastically. He must have somehow caused his officials to overcome the bias you described.

    There are studies supporting your thesis in regard to soccer. Home teams get more penalty kicks.

  8. >NFL story
    Hey, perfect!
    What, can a guy not walk around naked here? I’m sorry, I thought this was America!
    https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/naked-nfl-player-attacks-sheriffs-deputy/
    Site has pics and video.

  9. @Alrenous
    The autistic ability to do things despite being socially shamed for them is basically a superpower. I rather suspect progressives absolutely despite autistics for this ability. Plus the tendency to look for corroborating evidence rather than take the word of an "authority." The second thing drives them absolutely barmy.

    Of course you could instead construct a society where doing additional "shameful" things made you less competent, rather than more. Indeed many ancestors did just that.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Inquiring Mind

    Did you post this in the right place?

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @ScarletNumber

    ... actually it's to his point if he didn't.

    , @Mike Tre
    @ScarletNumber

    Just give him the troll tag either way

    , @SaneClownPosse
    @ScarletNumber

    His/her position on the autism spectrum is making intelligent comments inappropriately.

    Replies: @Alrenous

  10. Back when I thought Bill Maher respectable, I watched his old ABC/Comedy Central show Politcally Incorrect. One show was themed around sports fanatics. They had some regular guy lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns, who was a member of the famous Browns “Dawg Pound”, who dressed outrageously and made lots of noise. Also on Maher’s panel was smarmy ESPN talking head Roy Firestone.

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn’t matter and didn’t influence the games at all, despite the regular guy’s insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot. Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor. I’ve seen pro players get “rabbit ears” and have fan reactions get to them.

    As generals have known since the beginning of warfare, morale is one of the most important (if not the most important) factors in which army will win a battle, and that truth carries over to other competitions as well, including sports.

    That said, the Dawg Pound guy wasted a large portion of his precious life cheering on laundry and steroid-abusing pieces of crap all for a meaningless fooseball game. Too bad he never invested himself into something that would have helped society.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @R.G. Camara


    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn’t matter and didn’t influence the games at all, despite the regular guy’s insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot.
     
    That's awesome. And he didn't even need Marshall McLuhan to show up and help.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @R.G. Camara


    Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor.
     
    Jesse Ventura thrived on all the booing he got. He played the bad guy, and he said it was a sign he was doing his job effectively.
    , @FPD72
    @R.G. Camara


    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn’t matter and didn’t influence the games at all, despite the regular guy’s insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns.
     
    My parents swore they influenced the outcome of the 1949 Cotton Bowl, which ended in a 10-10 tie between SMU and Penn State. My folks were seated in an end zone on the very bottom row. A Penn State tight end was wide open in the end zone and the QB launched a perfect pass toward him. My mother screamed, “DROP IT” as loud as she could. The TE did drop the pass and then turned around and glared at my mother for a couple of seconds before returning to the PSU huddle. PSU ended up kicking a field goal, leading to the eventual tie. Both of my parents swore to the truth of their telling of the story to their respective dying days.

    Firestone was obviously wrong.
  11. The popular sport that obviously has the most potential impact of both the spectators and the mental state of the players is basketball.

  12. Anon[369] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m really concerned that we haven’t heard from Reg Cæsar, Achmed E. Newman, or Jack D yet on the end of home field advantage in the NFL. I’m afraid Sailer might have stumbled on the one topic, the single solitary topic in all of the world, for which Messrs. Cæsar, Newman, and D have no opinion. This is almost like reaching the end of the internet.

    • LOL: William Badwhite
  13. OT been a while since we were reminded that China has successfully nonmilitarily conquered us.

    FBI agents searched near the Texas home of U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar (D) on Wednesday as they conducted what an agency spokeswoman called “court-authorized law enforcement activity.”

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-agents-spotted-outside-home-democratic-rep-henry-cuellar
    https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-fbi-agents-at-home-of-democrat-henry-cuellar-conducting-court-authorized-activity
    Cuellar is a nominal liberal but he’s a Texan. He’s pro gun and has criticized Biden’s border chaos. My expectation is that this is purely political and my hope is that it is ugly enough to generate a strong corrective action. But maybe there is no political solution. Cuellar’s press secretary has ended his Twitter account.
    And of course it’s also possible Cuellar did something wrong, but the FBI’s current grasp of what constitutes that is a bit wierd.

  14. @ScarletNumber
    @Alrenous

    Did you post this in the right place?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Mike Tre, @SaneClownPosse

    … actually it’s to his point if he didn’t.

    • LOL: Alrenous
  15. This season, with students and employees learning and working from home, the home team’s players, cooped up and nagged and pestered by family members, get stressed out and their play suffers.

    The visiting team’s players, on the other hand, get a break from domestic turmoil, can sneak out, party a bit, and chase whores–putting them in that winning state of mind.

  16. It’d be interesting to look at what happened in 2005 that may have happened again over the last two years.

  17. comment in mods, egads.

  18. The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.

    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from “the nearness of you“. What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.

    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they’d become familiar.

    • Replies: @(((Owen)))
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage
     
    Basketball has the least specific rules with the most space for umpires to make personal judgements. What constitutes a foul, who is charging and who is static, what makes travelling worth calling.

    The recent rise in rigor in other sports where judgement and artistic impression count like figure skating and gymnastics has never reached the NBA, which is still like skating for Russian and East German judges in 1976.

    So of course the crowd can influence more judgements.

    Replies: @Mikeja, @TWS, @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Brutusale
    @Reg Cæsar

    Duffy's Cliff at Fenway Park:
    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2003/08/baseball_duffys.php
    https://www.spudart.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Fenway-Park-left-field-once-featured-a-10-foot-incline-nicknamed-Duffys-Cliff-768x390.png

    The Triangle, made more substantial by the adding of the bullpens in 1940. They called it Williamsburg then, as it was designed to help Ted Williams by moving the fence in right field in 23 feet:
    https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenwayfanatics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcf_triangle1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    Home fans? Typical Dodger whine.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/dodgers-pitching-coach-rips-brutal-bullpen-taunting-fenway-202556698.html

    The beauty of Fenway Park is the closeness. The players hear everything you say to them. The bullpen setup makes for a long night for the visitors.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @james wilson, @RadicalCenter

    , @Ganderson
    @Reg Cæsar

    NHL rinks (the playing surfaces, anyway) are all standardized now. (Edmonton and Calgary might be exceptions, dunno) Too lazy to look up home vs away stats, but I would think that in both the NBA and NHL road records would be way worse due to travel- I’d guess few teams, even good ones, have good records on the second night of a road back to back.

    , @guest007
    @Reg Cæsar

    Baseball has had a world series where the road team won all seven games. That has never happened in the NBA. The NBA is more like the favorite wins the first two at home and then 1 of three on the rod to end the series in six games.

    As the saying goes, a baseball team is only as good as the next pitcher.

    , @Hibernian
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports...
     
    I'd say it's tied with football.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

  19. @Anon
    Crown at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @NJ Transit Commuter, @Brutusale, @Buffalo Joe

    Crow[d] at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn’t do much for the Vikings. But they sure helped the Twins, especially in the postseason.

    It does ruin baseball, though. It’s only “pastoral” compared to a pasture next to the Interstate.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Metrodome was a terrible venue for baseball, unless you were in expensive seats behind home plate you had a terrible view of the field. It felt dark and dingy too. Just the way people who have six months of winter want to spend a beautiful summer night.

    , @Up2Drew
    @Reg Cæsar

    Agreed. As a long-time (and former) baseball fan, I once enjoyed the less "intense" atmosphere of baseball. I joined other knowledgeable friends in the stands, conversed on the game, the players, and focused our attention at appropriate moments.

    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert - my team is the White Sox, and my frequent companion is an intelligent fan who enjoys arriving early, watching batting practice, observing the players' work habits, discussing the team. Now it's so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can't have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers. Postseason is even worse - people who didn't attend a game all year constantly standing and screaming. Really annoying.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @kaganovitch
    @Reg Cæsar

    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn’t do much for the Vikings.

    Perhaps their defense would have been even worse without it?

  20. OT Anon at 4chan claiming to work with kids reports what pretty much everyone on right wing radio has been fearing:

    I’m an Academic Support Specialist. 8th grade. I push-in [sic] to content classes and co-teach.
    This new generation cannot do the following
    –Accurately utilize the four operations (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division) up to four digit whole numbers
    –solve single step word problems up to two whole numbers utilizing the four operations
    –independently produce an informative paragraph that follows expected grammar conventions
    –produce two sentences that have sentence fluency together that follow expected grammar conventions
    –utilize any of the four operations with fractions or decimals
    –name all 50 states
    –name more than 10 Presidents
    You may be asking
    –Well gee anon, isn’t that your job?
    No. It isn’t. When a student enters 8th grade, they need to be able to multiply fractions, write a BIDENing paragraph, have a basic understanding of what the United States [is], recognize that paragraphs contain punctuation, and be able to solve a single step addition word problem.
    Send your kids to private schools and or leave the United States.

    Not only do masks & lockdowns not protect you from wuflu, they spread retardation.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @J.Ross

    Hell, the president of the United States can’t do any of those things either.

  21. Off topic: has resident Brandon evolved into epicanthic eye folds? I think he’s becoming Chinese after blepharoplasty:

    What’s the difference between China and Japan? Remind me fellow brethren.

  22. Not a gambler nor a fan but doesn’t the home team in fb get that 1/2+/- on the line. Isn’t the negro demon league(sometimes they prance about naked in kids schools right) only about gambling?
    Do people really watch fb that don’t have a dime on the over under?
    I thought winning was covering. Is that not the case?
    Who has the best group of negroes this year?

    Also, i can eat 50 eggs

  23. @Anon
    Crown at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @NJ Transit Commuter, @Brutusale, @Buffalo Joe

    Went to an NFL game for the first time in over a decade this year, at Sofi Stadium*. Once change I noticed, and hate, is the artificial way they try to pump up crowd noise, especially on 3rd downs for the away team. If a team’s fans can’t be enthusiastic enough to make noise without encouragement, they deserve to lose!

    *My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    More sportsball copium.


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…
     
    Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Mike Tre

    , @Russ
    @NJ Transit Commuter


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…
     
    Yep. Estimated at $2B and only cost $5B (plus $790M to the city which previously hosted the home team, where it tanked to facilitate the move). All private money, save for the $100M Inglewood spent on adjacent roads et al. Truly a modern American paradigm.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    , @Jim Christian
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    *


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football.
     
    NJ, I've been to AT&T, Jarruhworld (a vast structure), the Toaster in AZ, Link in Philly and my own home stadium, FedEx in Landover Maryland, home of the Skins. Many others mostly for free. FedEx sucks, I have more respect for the old RFK stadium as a structure, old as it is. I did a fair amount of phone in several DC stadiums and arenas over the years, NJ, you wouldn't believe the complexity of those operations behind the scenes. A marvel.
    The treat for me is always examining the structure and asking myself how the hell did they DO this? Obviously by being smarter than I. For engineering quality however my new go-to is the Webb telescope. Amazing stuff AND a bargain for 10 billion.
  24. @Reg Cæsar

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from "the nearness of you". What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.
     
    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they'd become familiar.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @Brutusale, @Ganderson, @guest007, @Hibernian

    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage

    Basketball has the least specific rules with the most space for umpires to make personal judgements. What constitutes a foul, who is charging and who is static, what makes travelling worth calling.

    The recent rise in rigor in other sports where judgement and artistic impression count like figure skating and gymnastics has never reached the NBA, which is still like skating for Russian and East German judges in 1976.

    So of course the crowd can influence more judgements.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Mikeja
    @(((Owen)))

    Michael Lewis had a good podcast on the NBA’s move to off-site officiating with close calls being analyzed on video.

    https://podsauce.com/articles/check-out-against-the-rules-with-michael-lewis/

    It was odd that he didn’t mention the ref who had been convicted of game-fixing. That would seem a fairly prominent reason to make officiating consistent, right? I guess he wouldn’t have got the access

    , @TWS
    @(((Owen)))

    Basketball changed the rules to reduce the dominance of one man and it just kept drifting into suggestions rather than rules. Beat the everloving hell out of a big man in the middle but you better not touch one of the prima donnas palming the ball and walking from one end to the other.

    I watched Jordan trip over his own feet in a playoff game and they called a foul on the nearest opposing player even though he was a couple yards away.

    Basketball cannot be saved. It's as discivilizational as television.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @(((Owen)))

    At least the NBA took away the deal where James Harden flopping behind the three point line was the singular most effective offensive maneuver in the league by far!

  25. The WFT typically has more opponent’s fans in the stands esp when playing another NFC east team.

  26. Here’s quite a good article from their ABC, arguing that the covid period with no crowds saw a marked decrease in HGA globally.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-04/is-it-the-crowds-or-grounds-that-give-home-teams-the-edge/12311344?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

    And an academic paper, where they measured soccer players’ testosterone levels (that’s one sensitive test!) And found home ground teams to have higher levels.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10910222_Testosterone_territoriality_and_the_%27home_advantage%27

  27. Decades ago, a sportswriter cousin put the question to NBA champion coach and commentator Dr. Jack Ramsay as to why NBA playoff home-court advantage was much greater than the equivalent in the NHL, NFL, and MLB. Ramsay observed that the NBA playing surface is smaller than that for the other three major U.S. sportsball leagues, and that the home fans almost atop you over that small surface were very intimidating and distracting. But these days, with corporations controlling all the best seats and their attendees more indifferent than ever, perhaps the disappearance of the old-style 20th-century rabid fan has removed the home-field advantage. Or, perhaps the need to pay top-dollar for choice ducats has taken the snarl out of the buyers. Whatever kills sportsball fastest is generally a good thing.

  28. In baseball, home team batting Last is a strategic advantage. In hockey, the last home team’s right to change at faceoff provides a matchup advantage. Both are structural informatiin advantages.

    Belichick had a ridiculous home win streak, hmm, but he was wining 90% of his games anyway.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  29. But the NFL home field advantage rose from 2015 to 2018, with the two L.A. teams returning there in 2016 and 2017, and dropped precipitously in 2019, even with the Raiders still in Oakland. The specific timing of the moves works against that explanation.

  30. Then as now, a great NFL team can win on the road. The change of venue should not matter if the team is great and dominant. Otherwise most teams would be 8-8 during the season. Now it will be 9-8 or 8-9, depending on if a team’s schedule calls for more home than away games.

  31. I’ve always suspected that home-field advantage in sports is heavily influenced by how the athletes themselves respond to cheering crowds. If the athletes see an incentive to play harder/better in front of their home-town fans, they will do so, and there will probably be a statistically significant advantage to home-field.

    For example, there’s both the immediate effect of a great play, and a longer term effect. The immediate effect is wild cheering and increased media coverage during the rest of the game. The longer term effect would be higher long-term popularity with fans leading to higher salary and endorsement prospects. Certainly the immediate effect is greater if you’re playing a home game; the longer term effect is probably less dependent on whether the play was on home turf or not.

    Therefore I’d argue that time preference plays some part in whether the athlete plays harder/better for a home game than an away game. Which sports are dominated by high time preference individuals?

  32. Just as long as underdogs at home cover the spread 60%+ of the time. That’s what matters.

    • Agree: JMcG
  33. @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Anon

    Went to an NFL game for the first time in over a decade this year, at Sofi Stadium*. Once change I noticed, and hate, is the artificial way they try to pump up crowd noise, especially on 3rd downs for the away team. If a team’s fans can’t be enthusiastic enough to make noise without encouragement, they deserve to lose!

    *My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL...

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @Russ, @Jim Christian

    More sportsball copium.

    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…

    Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Greta Handel

    "Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?" Yeah, the rest of the world that worships soccer (futbol), a sport that has 90 to 100 minutes of jogging and walking resulting in 2-0 scores. 10 shots on goal. Just as many fake injuries. Continuous whining to the one referee on the field. Meanwhile, hooligans doing hooligan things before, during and after the game... banal.

    Replies: @animalogic

    , @Mike Tre
    @Greta Handel

    Nobody is talking about other countries. STFU.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

  34. @kaganovitch
    One other thing that is going on is that there have been three recent moves of NFL franchises, all to tourist towns with lots of visitors in the seats rooting for the visiting team: the Rams and Chargers to Los Angeles, and the Raiders to Las Vegas.

    I think you're on to something here. All three of these teams have a better record on the road than at home since they moved.

    LVR 5-4 at home, 5-3 on road since move this year.

    LAC 21-22 at home, 21-21 on road since move in 2017.

    LAR 31-20 at home, 31-18 on road since move in 2016

    Replies: @slumber_j

    I’m interested here in Steve’s characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town–and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren’t packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I’m wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I’m spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we’ve done a few times before. It’s nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @slumber_j

    Los Angeles didn't have an NFL team for 22 years and has a lot of people who moved to the area from other parts of the country who weren't necessarily going to shed their loyalty to their old team to root for the Rams. With the Chargers it is worse, because of the way they were moved from San Diego, locals don't want to root for them, and their historic fan base in San Diego was angry about the move. The two baseball teams in Florida are even worse at getting locals to support them.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @stillCARealist
    @slumber_j

    Mask Nazis in LA County. Hopefully the closed stuff will be open again. My kid is down there in school and utterly bewildered by the random closings of events and groups.

    Remind me, why did the Raiders move to Las Vegas? And why do fans stay loyal to teams that bounce hither and yon, chasing more dollars?

    , @kaganovitch
    @slumber_j

    I’m interested here in Steve’s characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town–and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren’t packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    I think part of Steve's point is that these teams, being recent transplants, haven't really captured the hearts of locals. Whereas the Jets/Giants have been in place for 60/100 years so sentiment runs deep in their favor in NY.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @slumber_j

    One nice feature at espn is the schedule page on Saturday and Sunday gives the going rate for vivid resale tickets. Las Vegas consistently has the highest or second highest price. New Jersey consistently had the lowest or second lowest price, Giants or Jets, this year. If LA was consistently high I think I would remember that.

    Does anybody know if the vivid resale ticket company is the same as Jim Rome's favorite porno company?

  35. @Alrenous
    The autistic ability to do things despite being socially shamed for them is basically a superpower. I rather suspect progressives absolutely despite autistics for this ability. Plus the tendency to look for corroborating evidence rather than take the word of an "authority." The second thing drives them absolutely barmy.

    Of course you could instead construct a society where doing additional "shameful" things made you less competent, rather than more. Indeed many ancestors did just that.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Inquiring Mind

    Cause the players gonna play, play, play, play, play
    And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
    Baby, I’m just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
    I shake it off, I shake it off

    T. Swift

  36. Home field advantage in football comes from two things. Crowd noise and environment. Has crowd noise gotten less intense? Maybe. Everybody at a game has a phone. Half of them are taking selfies at any one time. They’re there for the spectacle. Also, it’s so expensive that only rich people can go to games. Getting drunk and screaming at a football game is beneath largely white upper-class audience. The drunken, screaming blue collar guys are all sitting at home in front of their TVs.

    Environment used to play a big part. I’ll never forget the sight of Dan Fouts and the hapless Chargers playing the Bengals in a January playoff game. Zero degrees. 30 mph winds. It was a slaughter. The advent of the indoor stadium has negated that advantage completely in a lot of cities.

  37. @(((Owen)))
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage
     
    Basketball has the least specific rules with the most space for umpires to make personal judgements. What constitutes a foul, who is charging and who is static, what makes travelling worth calling.

    The recent rise in rigor in other sports where judgement and artistic impression count like figure skating and gymnastics has never reached the NBA, which is still like skating for Russian and East German judges in 1976.

    So of course the crowd can influence more judgements.

    Replies: @Mikeja, @TWS, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Michael Lewis had a good podcast on the NBA’s move to off-site officiating with close calls being analyzed on video.

    https://podsauce.com/articles/check-out-against-the-rules-with-michael-lewis/

    It was odd that he didn’t mention the ref who had been convicted of game-fixing. That would seem a fairly prominent reason to make officiating consistent, right? I guess he wouldn’t have got the access

  38. Is fantasy football still a thing? Maybe fans go to see players, not teams anymore. That could diffuse crowd reaction as a home advantage. I don’t follow any sports, just asking.

  39. I wish we were all fighting on the same side

    Too often slight differences have become multiplied in our combined enthusiasm to celebrate the Jewish victory over us, as Americans, who will steer us into our best direction, befitting us as slaves.

  40. @Patrick in SC
    I recall a "study" about 15 years ago which professed to have carefully studied home field advantage in many different sports and reached the conclusion that the biggest advantage with playing in front of your own cheering partisans is that the crowd influenced the officials/umpires/refs.

    E.g. QB throws the ball in the seats, home crowd bays for a PI call, so refs, being human and hence eager to please the mob, throw yellow marker.

    Perhaps the advent of instant replay has diminished the tendency of the refs to effect the outcome on non-judgment calls such as fumbles or out-of-bounds?

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Buffalo Joe

    Even if you don’t actually expect to get lynched, you still can’t fully appreciate the impact of a 70k person mob screaming for your head until you’ve faced it for yourself.

  41. OT best explanation of the great reset here. The bugs are real but they’re a colorful mask. Our financial leaders screwed up because they’re as stupid and bad as the leaders of pretty much every other industry right now. To fix their screwup they will drive through radical changes. Having trouble believing this is not the safe or reasonable position.
    https://postimg.cc/MMjg0b4M

  42. @Anon
    Crown at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @NJ Transit Commuter, @Brutusale, @Buffalo Joe

    The real fans have been priced out of the market. Anyone in Boston knows what I mean when I disparage the “pink & green hat” fans!

  43. @(((Owen)))
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage
     
    Basketball has the least specific rules with the most space for umpires to make personal judgements. What constitutes a foul, who is charging and who is static, what makes travelling worth calling.

    The recent rise in rigor in other sports where judgement and artistic impression count like figure skating and gymnastics has never reached the NBA, which is still like skating for Russian and East German judges in 1976.

    So of course the crowd can influence more judgements.

    Replies: @Mikeja, @TWS, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Basketball changed the rules to reduce the dominance of one man and it just kept drifting into suggestions rather than rules. Beat the everloving hell out of a big man in the middle but you better not touch one of the prima donnas palming the ball and walking from one end to the other.

    I watched Jordan trip over his own feet in a playoff game and they called a foul on the nearest opposing player even though he was a couple yards away.

    Basketball cannot be saved. It’s as discivilizational as television.

  44. Well, the Patriots came into town a few weeks back, wind gusts 35-50 mph and below zero wind chill and beat the Bills 14-10, throwing the ball just three times. Patriots came into town last weekend and the Bills demolished them 47-17 in single digit air temp and a slight wind. Same teams, same field, different results. Bills also beat Patriots at Foxboro this year and Chiefs at KC. Three important games all played outside in front of near sell out crowds. What to make of this? Check the results for domed stadiums and natural turf, that might be more interesting. Three of the top teams in the play offs, KC, Green Bay and KC all play in open stadiums, GB and KC on natural turf. Oh, and most importantly, check the QBs on the highest ranked teams, there is your answer, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Burrow with Tannehill, Garoppolo and Stafford as better than most of the rest.

    • Thanks: Hibernian
  45. @slumber_j
    @kaganovitch

    I'm interested here in Steve's characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town--and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren't packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I'm wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I'm spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we've done a few times before. It's nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    Replies: @Barnard, @stillCARealist, @kaganovitch, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Los Angeles didn’t have an NFL team for 22 years and has a lot of people who moved to the area from other parts of the country who weren’t necessarily going to shed their loyalty to their old team to root for the Rams. With the Chargers it is worse, because of the way they were moved from San Diego, locals don’t want to root for them, and their historic fan base in San Diego was angry about the move. The two baseball teams in Florida are even worse at getting locals to support them.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Barnard

    Both of the Marlins' World Series victories were followed by rapid wholescale gutting of the team. Not a good way to encourage long-term fan support.

  46. @Anon
    Crown at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @NJ Transit Commuter, @Brutusale, @Buffalo Joe

    ThreeFiveFive, Seattle reportedly has the loudest crowd noise, partly because of their stangely shaped stadium, but Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson didn’t get it done this year.

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Buffalo Joe

    Don't they call the Seattle fans "the 12th man" or something?

  47. @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon


    Crow[d] at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.
     
    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn't do much for the Vikings. But they sure helped the Twins, especially in the postseason.

    It does ruin baseball, though. It's only "pastoral" compared to a pasture next to the Interstate.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Up2Drew, @kaganovitch

    The Metrodome was a terrible venue for baseball, unless you were in expensive seats behind home plate you had a terrible view of the field. It felt dark and dingy too. Just the way people who have six months of winter want to spend a beautiful summer night.

  48. @Patrick in SC
    I recall a "study" about 15 years ago which professed to have carefully studied home field advantage in many different sports and reached the conclusion that the biggest advantage with playing in front of your own cheering partisans is that the crowd influenced the officials/umpires/refs.

    E.g. QB throws the ball in the seats, home crowd bays for a PI call, so refs, being human and hence eager to please the mob, throw yellow marker.

    Perhaps the advent of instant replay has diminished the tendency of the refs to effect the outcome on non-judgment calls such as fumbles or out-of-bounds?

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Buffalo Joe

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can’t keep up with the game. Ever watch them back pedalling after spotting the ball before the snap. A few with big arms but they don’t run on their hands. Start an internship, players just done with a college career and work them into the mix. And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Buffalo Joe

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can’t keep up with the game.

    Agree completely. Also, it seems to me that officiating has just gotten worse across the board in the nfl the last couple of years, but perhaps that's just an artifact of better viewer info,clarity,angles etc.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @John Johnson
    @Buffalo Joe

    And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    What are you saying? The viewers shouldn't be allowed to know what happened?

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game. I don't want to back to when some bad call at the end could change a game. Still happens but not nearly as much as it used to. Cowboys fans are mad at the refs over the last game but that was a bad play call by the coach. Turrable in fact. QB draw down the middle with 14 seconds can go bad so many ways.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Gamecock, @animalogic

  49. @Reg Cæsar

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from "the nearness of you". What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.
     
    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they'd become familiar.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @Brutusale, @Ganderson, @guest007, @Hibernian

    Duffy’s Cliff at Fenway Park:
    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2003/08/baseball_duffys.php
    The Triangle, made more substantial by the adding of the bullpens in 1940. They called it Williamsburg then, as it was designed to help Ted Williams by moving the fence in right field in 23 feet:
    https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenwayfanatics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcf_triangle1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    Home fans? Typical Dodger whine.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/dodgers-pitching-coach-rips-brutal-bullpen-taunting-fenway-202556698.html

    The beauty of Fenway Park is the closeness. The players hear everything you say to them. The bullpen setup makes for a long night for the visitors.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Brutusale

    Fenway used to have one no-beer section when the fans were becoming a bit too rowdy, and it was the best way to get a good seat to an otherwise sold-out game. It was out near the Green Monster in left but the angle was perfect and still so close you felt like you were peeking right over the third-baseman's shoulder. Just run down for a brew in the concourse every few innings

    , @james wilson
    @Brutusale

    Before sellout crowds became a thing I was sitting near the rail in RF when Roy White came up top nine two on two out trailing by two. He hit a fly back to the short wall and Conigliaro had time to back to it but a fan took it away. Sox lost, Yankees won. Conigliaro was an Italian kid from Revere. I was a suburban kid from elsewhere. This is the first time I ever heard anybody curse like that. It was a performance.

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Brutusale

    Fenway, like Boston, is overrated, overpriced, and not worthwhile.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  50. The CFL used to have even more of a home field advantage compared to the NFL, but this year I believe it was less. Although it was a pretty Covid screwed up season with some severe fan number restrictions.

  51. In the real world, Home field is, if White, always at a disadvantage.

    It’s taken a day or so but Honkie did it:

    In a statement to Sky News on Monday, Akram’s brother Gulbar asked how he had been able to acquire a visa to enter the US. “He’s known to police. Got a criminal record. How was he allowed to get a visa and acquire a gun?” he said.

    It’s all America’s fault.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/18/mi5-investigated-texas-synagogue-hostage-taker-malik-faisal-akram-in-2020

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    @Bill Jones

    As I mentioned the other day, Mr. Akram made a perfectly “useful idiot”.
    Intelligence agencies worldwide manipulate dupes like this guy all the time.

    Why was he here?

    Because someone, somewhere in some intelligence agency thought Akram could be of “use.”

  52. Here’s a fun football fact. There are 8 teams left in the playoffs. Seven of them have whites QBs, one has a half-white QB. Alas, another year goes by and the rise of the Great Black Quarterbacks has yet to appear!

  53. Home-field advantage in various pro sports also stems from the travel fatigue, overloaded schedules and hotel-bound boredom of teams on long road trips. Penguins just visited Philly, Dallas, LA, Anaheim, San Jose and Vegas in 12 days.

    Football of course has its own unique schedule so I’m wondering if all the Covid BS has added somehow to league “parity” simply by making even good teams more inconsistent. “Protocols,” “mandates” and other aggravating factors. Consistent teams “take care of business” and win those home games. Inconsistent teams lose one out of the blue to the road dog

    I only play the ponies but I’m guessing the Covid era has made things less predictable overall for bookies and gamblers alike regarding NFL or college football games.

  54. @Reg Cæsar

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from "the nearness of you". What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.
     
    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they'd become familiar.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @Brutusale, @Ganderson, @guest007, @Hibernian

    NHL rinks (the playing surfaces, anyway) are all standardized now. (Edmonton and Calgary might be exceptions, dunno) Too lazy to look up home vs away stats, but I would think that in both the NBA and NHL road records would be way worse due to travel- I’d guess few teams, even good ones, have good records on the second night of a road back to back.

  55. @Brutusale
    @Reg Cæsar

    Duffy's Cliff at Fenway Park:
    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2003/08/baseball_duffys.php
    https://www.spudart.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Fenway-Park-left-field-once-featured-a-10-foot-incline-nicknamed-Duffys-Cliff-768x390.png

    The Triangle, made more substantial by the adding of the bullpens in 1940. They called it Williamsburg then, as it was designed to help Ted Williams by moving the fence in right field in 23 feet:
    https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenwayfanatics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcf_triangle1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    Home fans? Typical Dodger whine.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/dodgers-pitching-coach-rips-brutal-bullpen-taunting-fenway-202556698.html

    The beauty of Fenway Park is the closeness. The players hear everything you say to them. The bullpen setup makes for a long night for the visitors.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @james wilson, @RadicalCenter

    Fenway used to have one no-beer section when the fans were becoming a bit too rowdy, and it was the best way to get a good seat to an otherwise sold-out game. It was out near the Green Monster in left but the angle was perfect and still so close you felt like you were peeking right over the third-baseman’s shoulder. Just run down for a brew in the concourse every few innings

  56. @slumber_j
    @kaganovitch

    I'm interested here in Steve's characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town--and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren't packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I'm wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I'm spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we've done a few times before. It's nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    Replies: @Barnard, @stillCARealist, @kaganovitch, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Mask Nazis in LA County. Hopefully the closed stuff will be open again. My kid is down there in school and utterly bewildered by the random closings of events and groups.

    Remind me, why did the Raiders move to Las Vegas? And why do fans stay loyal to teams that bounce hither and yon, chasing more dollars?

  57. White flight has changed the make up of cities. Immigrants prefer soccer. Employment opportunities have made swathes of people transient. These days formerly city based companies who used to buy tickets are transient, if they even exist anymore. Players and coaches are very disposable and transferable. So considering all that what is exactly would be home field advantage in the globohomo era? Locker rooms? Owner boxes? Personally I think these days any advantage solely depends on whether the owner is on the rules committee and high end gamblers.

  58. Iowa college football paints their opponents locker room bright pink to psychologically mess with them.
    https://fanbuzz.com/college-football/big-ten/iowa/iowa-pink-locker-rooms/

  59. @Reg Cæsar

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from "the nearness of you". What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.
     
    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they'd become familiar.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @Brutusale, @Ganderson, @guest007, @Hibernian

    Baseball has had a world series where the road team won all seven games. That has never happened in the NBA. The NBA is more like the favorite wins the first two at home and then 1 of three on the rod to end the series in six games.

    As the saying goes, a baseball team is only as good as the next pitcher.

  60. @anon

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Yes, but in most, if not all sports, the cheering (and jeering) effect is thought to be mediated largely through officiating. Referees are like everyone else: they like being popular, which leads to implicit bias. The presumed increase in objectivity of officiating in many sports in recent years, via calls based on video replay, may be neutralizing this aspect of home field advantage.

    Replies: @Director95

    I have to commend the officials in the Dallas vs 49’s game. They made some tough calls, especially the one ending the game. And they were correct every time even though the call went against Dallas and the fans catterwauled, and puked, and moaned. Too bad, better luck next time.

  61. Losers gonna lose.

    My local team lost most of their home games this year. They lost most of their away games, too.

    HIGH DRAFT PICK !!!

  62. I never understood American boomers’ fascination with sportsball. I understand the World Cup (although with multiculturalism it’s going in the same direction), but where’s the fun in watching Negroes A vs Negroes B from random american cities?

  63. @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon


    Crow[d] at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.
     
    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn't do much for the Vikings. But they sure helped the Twins, especially in the postseason.

    It does ruin baseball, though. It's only "pastoral" compared to a pasture next to the Interstate.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Up2Drew, @kaganovitch

    Agreed. As a long-time (and former) baseball fan, I once enjoyed the less “intense” atmosphere of baseball. I joined other knowledgeable friends in the stands, conversed on the game, the players, and focused our attention at appropriate moments.

    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert – my team is the White Sox, and my frequent companion is an intelligent fan who enjoys arriving early, watching batting practice, observing the players’ work habits, discussing the team. Now it’s so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can’t have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers. Postseason is even worse – people who didn’t attend a game all year constantly standing and screaming. Really annoying.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Up2Drew


    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert – my team is the White Sox... Now it’s so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can’t have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers.
     
    Mets games on TV led me to believe Wrigley was the best ballpark in baseball. Real life showed that it wasn't even the best in Chicago. Until 1990, that is.

    I told a housemate that Nancy Faust was the best organist in baseball. He countered, who cares who the organist is? That's the point-- she made you care. Just for that she belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    I attended one game at the new stadium and was horrified to see hear that she had been demoted, often drowned out by speaker "music". Just yards from the site of the Disco Demolition Derby!

    At least they didn't fire her. Like the pissing-boy statue in the old picnic area.

    Replies: @Up2Drew

  64. There are 14 playoff teams this year.

    10 of them had winning home records.

    Of the 4 with losing home records, all but 1 failed to advance after the first playoff game.

    https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-home-team-win-loss-record-2021

    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.

    • Replies: @alaska3636
    @alaska3636

    To expand further:

    Here is the data for road wins in 2021:
    https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-team-has-the-best-road-record-in-the-nfl-this-season

    A few more things stand out:

    5 teams average over 30 ppg at home vs only 2 teams on the road. Similar pattern for points against: more against on the road vs at home.

    I'm just eyeballing the data, but it looks pretty clear to me like home teams are more likely to perform better at home on average vs the road. The NFL had a fair amount of variability this year. I can't find the link, but there was an individual team (The Vikings) who set a record for games decided by one score. The league as a whole generated a record number of one score games as well as blow outs this past year as well.

    At the ground level, this appears to be the fallacy of the hot hand fallacy. Most players would tell you they play better at home.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @alaska3636


    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.
     
    We live a few hours to the west, but near their latitude. I walked the dog tonight at -6°F, and later moved the cars (alternate-side rule in effect) at -17°F. Maybe ten minutes for each task. Extrapolate that to three hours, with periodic slams into the frozen tundra turf, and you can see why visitors from the Sunbelt might be less than effective.

    Actually, the clear days are the coldest. Clouds keep some of the heat in. Over time, people got wise to this deceptive plate; newer ones say "Friendly":

    https://www.15q.net/cdn/mb75.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L

  65. In public high school football, the advantage is that the home crowd brings a greater diversity of weaponry, and more rounds of ammunition.

  66. @Reg Cæsar
    @Anon


    Crow[d] at an nfl game actually has a job; getting loud at appropriate time to disrupt offensive play calling. Perhaps this needs to be learned.
     
    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn't do much for the Vikings. But they sure helped the Twins, especially in the postseason.

    It does ruin baseball, though. It's only "pastoral" compared to a pasture next to the Interstate.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Up2Drew, @kaganovitch

    Those horrific noise levels in the Metrodome didn’t do much for the Vikings.

    Perhaps their defense would have been even worse without it?

  67. @slumber_j
    @kaganovitch

    I'm interested here in Steve's characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town--and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren't packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I'm wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I'm spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we've done a few times before. It's nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    Replies: @Barnard, @stillCARealist, @kaganovitch, @Emil Nikola Richard

    I’m interested here in Steve’s characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town–and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren’t packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    I think part of Steve’s point is that these teams, being recent transplants, haven’t really captured the hearts of locals. Whereas the Jets/Giants have been in place for 60/100 years so sentiment runs deep in their favor in NY.

  68. @Buffalo Joe
    @Patrick in SC

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can't keep up with the game. Ever watch them back pedalling after spotting the ball before the snap. A few with big arms but they don't run on their hands. Start an internship, players just done with a college career and work them into the mix. And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can’t keep up with the game.

    Agree completely. Also, it seems to me that officiating has just gotten worse across the board in the nfl the last couple of years, but perhaps that’s just an artifact of better viewer info,clarity,angles etc.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @kaganovitch

    kaga, thank you. It is worse in HS where I watched an obese ref have to take a knee to pick up his flag. Start a school. Train young eager recent college players. Test and re test and make them meet fitness levels. And yes, too many views and replays hurt. Ref sees play in real time from one position. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  69. Screaming to cause a false start or delay of game doesn’t seem to work anywhere but Seattle. But even there it only works on occasion.

    My guess is training and better electronic earpieces for the quarterback.

  70. And yet the home teams just won five out of the six playoff games this last weekend. Only the visiting 49ers could beat the Cowboys in Arlington. Most of the other games weren’t even close.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    The 49ers tried to give that game back in the second half, but the over-rated, undisciplined, badly coached Cowboys managed to choke and die once again thanks to the incompetence of their $40 million/year QB who promptly blamed the refs.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Pincher Martin, @Gamecock

    , @guest007
    @Pincher Martin

    In a seeded tournament (power protect for the old fashioned), will usually produce lots of non-competitive games. When lower seed is the road team and two of the games were on a short week. Look up how well home teams do on short weeks.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @ben tillman
    @Pincher Martin

    If your punt team converts a 4th-and-5 (pass) and a 4th-and-13 (penalty) into first downs, the rest of the team has to be really bad to lose the game.

    That 40-second runoff plus 5-yard penalty after the fake punt was worse than anything I saw Dino Babers do this year.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  71. @Buffalo Joe
    @Patrick in SC

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can't keep up with the game. Ever watch them back pedalling after spotting the ball before the snap. A few with big arms but they don't run on their hands. Start an internship, players just done with a college career and work them into the mix. And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson

    And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    What are you saying? The viewers shouldn’t be allowed to know what happened?

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game. I don’t want to back to when some bad call at the end could change a game. Still happens but not nearly as much as it used to. Cowboys fans are mad at the refs over the last game but that was a bad play call by the coach. Turrable in fact. QB draw down the middle with 14 seconds can go bad so many ways.

    • Agree: animalogic
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @John Johnson

    John, you are aware that there are now "Booth Reviews" of plays that the refs apparently did not see. And to me, the call that ruins the game are the "Pass Interference" flags that seem to evolve week to week or even quarter to quarter. So viewers still don't know what happened even when they see what happened. That's why we have so many ref huddles where they review the call. Great commercial with all the refs huddled together trying to determine why a flag was throw. Fan in the stands yells " Your mic is on." Find it watch it.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    , @Gamecock
    @John Johnson


    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game.
     
    Heh!

    Gamecock will in fact stop fast forwarding a game to see the red flag challenge. Same with baseball. He finds the judgement fascinating. Usually more interesting than the game.
    , @animalogic
    @John Johnson

    There's so much wrong with soccer it's hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them. My god how long did they resist even having goal-line cameras/reviews ?
    The corruption, the BS excuses, the fetish with skill over everything else (the "beautiful game crap) -- god give me strength....

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Joe Joe

  72. Any thoughts on the rumor that the tsunami was caused by a Russian undersea nuclear test?

    • Replies: @The Ringmaster
    @Stan Adams

    The volcano had been bubbling away mightily for over a month, so the big boom wasn't that much of a shock to geology. And maybe a bigger one is on the way, although probably not. They're having a hard time monitoring it right now, due it being a disaster zone in the middle of nowhere. And being remote feeds unlikely hype/hypotheses, just like those poor multitudinous polar bears allegedly suffering from global warming. Or the xyz Antarctic glacier which will go any day now.

    Of course the Russian Pacific fleet has boomers and the rest, wandering hither & yon. But every generic natural disaster these days attracts bizarre teleological ideas, especially since the normalisation of weed.

    , @J.Ross
    @Stan Adams

    If it was a Russian nuke it means that Joseph Robinette Biden, most popular candidate in the history of democracy, got defeated before the fighting started. Is anything observable happening which might bear this out, like a confused backing down over Ukraine?

  73. The NFL played an odd number of regular season games this year. Maybe the teams that got 9, instead of 8, home games tended to be poorer.

  74. It’s probably is just the ‘live action replay’ answer.

    And thinking about it, I’ve just realised why there was a rash of articles complaining about replays when they were introduced in the premier league. Although people attempted to rationalise their reasons, a large part of why replays spoiled the fun for fans is that being part of a home crowd and trying to sway the match was part of the attraction–it was a publicly acceptable substitute for nationalistic feelings.

    Crowds don’t want the matches to be ‘fair’. They want to win. Without that football is just a competition between different publicly-listed companies–something people may wise up to in the near future (I know Steve’s post is about some sort of American sport, not football, but the principles are similar).

  75. Do most NFL teams still have any connection to, or characteristics of, their local fan base? I remember that even in the 1980s and early 1990s, many teams still seemed “of” the city that hosted them. Although I no longer follow football, my vague impression was that that’s not really the case any more. If a player is simply a mercenary for whoever pays the highest wage, is there really a “home field”?

  76. @Pincher Martin
    And yet the home teams just won five out of the six playoff games this last weekend. Only the visiting 49ers could beat the Cowboys in Arlington. Most of the other games weren't even close.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @guest007, @ben tillman

    The 49ers tried to give that game back in the second half, but the over-rated, undisciplined, badly coached Cowboys managed to choke and die once again thanks to the incompetence of their \$40 million/year QB who promptly blamed the refs.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Jim Don Bob

    Notice how Mike McCarthy’s former team suddenly got a lot better once he left?

    Many Packers fans think the Packers would have won multiple Super Bowls with Rodgers with a better head coach.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @Pincher Martin
    @Jim Don Bob

    Yeah, Garoppolo nearly single-handed gave that game back to the Cowboys. First, the awful interception and then not waiting for his lineman to get set before going for a quarterback sneak on 4th and inches.

    And the Cowboys absolutely did not deserve to win that game. Bad coaching and bad quarterback play was a double whammy for them.

    Replies: @alaska3636

    , @Gamecock
    @Jim Don Bob

    Penalties. Penalties. Penalties.

    You can get away with no discipline against inferior opponents. Playoffs is a different world.

  77. @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Anon

    Went to an NFL game for the first time in over a decade this year, at Sofi Stadium*. Once change I noticed, and hate, is the artificial way they try to pump up crowd noise, especially on 3rd downs for the away team. If a team’s fans can’t be enthusiastic enough to make noise without encouragement, they deserve to lose!

    *My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL...

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @Russ, @Jim Christian

    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…

    Yep. Estimated at \$2B and only cost \$5B (plus \$790M to the city which previously hosted the home team, where it tanked to facilitate the move). All private money, save for the \$100M Inglewood spent on adjacent roads et al. Truly a modern American paradigm.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Russ

    All private money .. Truly a modern American paradigm.

    I do not concede the point that the trend, in sports stadium construction, is for private funding. See the LV Tax Raiders.

    Meanwhile, the scheming politicians have figured out a "better" strategy for how to flush money (i.e. patronage) on stadia: By promoting individually less expensive, but still numerous, big sports facilities at public high schools. Voters love the projects (even fiscal critics think it's for a good cause) and politicians don't have to endure accusations that they're giving welfare to billionaires.

  78. Steve, it seems that you are very easily distracted these days.

  79. @ScarletNumber
    @Alrenous

    Did you post this in the right place?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Mike Tre, @SaneClownPosse

    Just give him the troll tag either way

  80. @kaganovitch
    @Buffalo Joe

    Patrick, the NFL needs to revamp their officials. Guys wih 20 plus years as a ref can’t keep up with the game.

    Agree completely. Also, it seems to me that officiating has just gotten worse across the board in the nfl the last couple of years, but perhaps that's just an artifact of better viewer info,clarity,angles etc.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    kaga, thank you. It is worse in HS where I watched an obese ref have to take a knee to pick up his flag. Start a school. Train young eager recent college players. Test and re test and make them meet fitness levels. And yes, too many views and replays hurt. Ref sees play in real time from one position. Stay safe.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Buffalo Joe

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don't make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Dan Jenkins pushed this for 50 years.

    Of course, the NFL won't even make their officials full-time employees!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

  81. @Pincher Martin
    And yet the home teams just won five out of the six playoff games this last weekend. Only the visiting 49ers could beat the Cowboys in Arlington. Most of the other games weren't even close.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @guest007, @ben tillman

    In a seeded tournament (power protect for the old fashioned), will usually produce lots of non-competitive games. When lower seed is the road team and two of the games were on a short week. Look up how well home teams do on short weeks.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @guest007

    I think that's true for many professional sports, but it seems to be less true for the NFL, where wild-card teams not infrequently can run the field to win the Lombardi. Reaching the Super Bowl for a wild-card team requires at least three consecutive road victories in today's playoff format.

    In the NBA, it's been nearly three decades since a team seeded lower than third in their conference won the NBA title, and that was the Hakeem Olajuwan-led Houston Rockets in 1995. And even the three seeds, who get at least one series with the home-court advantage, have rarely been crowned champs.

  82. @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    The 49ers tried to give that game back in the second half, but the over-rated, undisciplined, badly coached Cowboys managed to choke and die once again thanks to the incompetence of their $40 million/year QB who promptly blamed the refs.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Pincher Martin, @Gamecock

    Notice how Mike McCarthy’s former team suddenly got a lot better once he left?

    Many Packers fans think the Packers would have won multiple Super Bowls with Rodgers with a better head coach.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Paleo Liberal

    Rodgers is worse than McCarthy. His prima donna attitude blatantly caused two of their four losses this year. (One, to the Saints, coming at the beginning of the season after his holdout. The second one, to KC, due to his COVID suspension.) One of the other two losses, to Detroit, was due to resting starters for at least a half, including Rodgers. The fourth loss, I believe, was to the Vikings, although I'm not 100% sure. I'd say that one can be charged to him too.

  83. The Redskins (or whatevers) are really down as well. Frequent stadium takeovers.

    Also, I really prefer seeing a game on travel. In town, I have my own digs. During travel (work or leisure), I like the outing to go to a stadium, perhaps a new one.

  84. @(((Owen)))
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage
     
    Basketball has the least specific rules with the most space for umpires to make personal judgements. What constitutes a foul, who is charging and who is static, what makes travelling worth calling.

    The recent rise in rigor in other sports where judgement and artistic impression count like figure skating and gymnastics has never reached the NBA, which is still like skating for Russian and East German judges in 1976.

    So of course the crowd can influence more judgements.

    Replies: @Mikeja, @TWS, @Emil Nikola Richard

    At least the NBA took away the deal where James Harden flopping behind the three point line was the singular most effective offensive maneuver in the league by far!

  85. @slumber_j
    @kaganovitch

    I'm interested here in Steve's characterization of LA as a tourist town. I guess it is, but in the same way that NYC is a tourist town--and from what little I understand of the matter, the stands at that stadium in NJ aren't packed with tourists when the Jets and Giants are playing.

    But maybe I'm wrong. In any case this response is rich coming from me: I'm spending a week in LA with the family in March for spring break, as we've done a few times before. It's nice to go somewhere with pleasant weather for a change, where we can see a lot of friends and do actually interesting things.

    Replies: @Barnard, @stillCARealist, @kaganovitch, @Emil Nikola Richard

    One nice feature at espn is the schedule page on Saturday and Sunday gives the going rate for vivid resale tickets. Las Vegas consistently has the highest or second highest price. New Jersey consistently had the lowest or second lowest price, Giants or Jets, this year. If LA was consistently high I think I would remember that.

    Does anybody know if the vivid resale ticket company is the same as Jim Rome’s favorite porno company?

  86. @Greta Handel
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    More sportsball copium.


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…
     
    Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Mike Tre

    “Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?” Yeah, the rest of the world that worships soccer (futbol), a sport that has 90 to 100 minutes of jogging and walking resulting in 2-0 scores. 10 shots on goal. Just as many fake injuries. Continuous whining to the one referee on the field. Meanwhile, hooligans doing hooligan things before, during and after the game… banal.

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Ron Mexico

    Oh, god, I forgot about the "fake injuries". Pathetic. (one minute in visible agony, next, up & running). Which reminds me how much "penalies" are exploited by ALL sides. The naive might call all this shit "cheating"....

  87. @Greta Handel
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    More sportsball copium.


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…
     
    Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Mike Tre

    Nobody is talking about other countries. STFU.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @Mike Tre

    How’s this


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world.
     
    not “talking about other countries”?
  88. @Bill Jones
    In the real world, Home field is, if White, always at a disadvantage.

    It's taken a day or so but Honkie did it:

    In a statement to Sky News on Monday, Akram’s brother Gulbar asked how he had been able to acquire a visa to enter the US. “He’s known to police. Got a criminal record. How was he allowed to get a visa and acquire a gun?” he said.
     
    It's all America's fault.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/18/mi5-investigated-texas-synagogue-hostage-taker-malik-faisal-akram-in-2020

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe

    As I mentioned the other day, Mr. Akram made a perfectly “useful idiot”.
    Intelligence agencies worldwide manipulate dupes like this guy all the time.

    Why was he here?

    Because someone, somewhere in some intelligence agency thought Akram could be of “use.”

    • Agree: ben tillman
  89. @Russ
    @NJ Transit Commuter


    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL…
     
    Yep. Estimated at $2B and only cost $5B (plus $790M to the city which previously hosted the home team, where it tanked to facilitate the move). All private money, save for the $100M Inglewood spent on adjacent roads et al. Truly a modern American paradigm.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    All private money .. Truly a modern American paradigm.

    I do not concede the point that the trend, in sports stadium construction, is for private funding. See the LV Tax Raiders.

    Meanwhile, the scheming politicians have figured out a “better” strategy for how to flush money (i.e. patronage) on stadia: By promoting individually less expensive, but still numerous, big sports facilities at public high schools. Voters love the projects (even fiscal critics think it’s for a good cause) and politicians don’t have to endure accusations that they’re giving welfare to billionaires.

  90. @R.G. Camara
    Back when I thought Bill Maher respectable, I watched his old ABC/Comedy Central show Politcally Incorrect. One show was themed around sports fanatics. They had some regular guy lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns, who was a member of the famous Browns "Dawg Pound", who dressed outrageously and made lots of noise. Also on Maher's panel was smarmy ESPN talking head Roy Firestone.

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn't matter and didn't influence the games at all, despite the regular guy's insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot. Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor. I've seen pro players get "rabbit ears" and have fan reactions get to them.

    As generals have known since the beginning of warfare, morale is one of the most important (if not the most important) factors in which army will win a battle, and that truth carries over to other competitions as well, including sports.

    That said, the Dawg Pound guy wasted a large portion of his precious life cheering on laundry and steroid-abusing pieces of crap all for a meaningless fooseball game. Too bad he never invested himself into something that would have helped society.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Reg Cæsar, @FPD72

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn’t matter and didn’t influence the games at all, despite the regular guy’s insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot.

    That’s awesome. And he didn’t even need Marshall McLuhan to show up and help.

  91. Generalizing to other psychological aspects of performance in sport, hundreds of studies have found…. almost nothing, according to an article I once read. The idea is that athletes are human, so, there’s gotta be a lot of psychology involved, right! What about performance in the clutch? Nah. Well, what about the presence of veterans at playoff time? Nah. Okay, what about…. and so on.

  92. Anonymous[204] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m going my memory here:

    In the book The Fix is In, home field advantage is discussed.
    The book cited an economics paper which dealt with the question of home field advantage.

    Baseball has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, home field advantage. Less than the NFL and the NBA.

    The economics article argued that the home field advantage is due to officiating. The referees/umpires make calls against the visiting team somewhat more than league averages.

    It’s not that the visiting players get distracted, nervous etc.

    The refs/umpires act in such a way because of fan pressure.

    If I find the book I’ll post again with quotes and citations.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Anonymous


    It’s not that the visiting players get distracted, nervous etc.
     
    I'm surprised that's true for the NFL. I see many football games where crowd noise affects the visiting quarterback, causing him to either take timeouts he otherwise would not need or suffer delay of game penalties.
  93. @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    The 49ers tried to give that game back in the second half, but the over-rated, undisciplined, badly coached Cowboys managed to choke and die once again thanks to the incompetence of their $40 million/year QB who promptly blamed the refs.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Pincher Martin, @Gamecock

    Yeah, Garoppolo nearly single-handed gave that game back to the Cowboys. First, the awful interception and then not waiting for his lineman to get set before going for a quarterback sneak on 4th and inches.

    And the Cowboys absolutely did not deserve to win that game. Bad coaching and bad quarterback play was a double whammy for them.

    • Replies: @alaska3636
    @Pincher Martin

    In 52 seasons since the wild card system was installed (1970), only 7 wildcard teams have one a Super Bowl.

    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pincher Martin

  94. @Anonymous
    I’m going my memory here:

    In the book The Fix is In, home field advantage is discussed.
    The book cited an economics paper which dealt with the question of home field advantage.

    Baseball has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, home field advantage. Less than the NFL and the NBA.

    The economics article argued that the home field advantage is due to officiating. The referees/umpires make calls against the visiting team somewhat more than league averages.

    It’s not that the visiting players get distracted, nervous etc.

    The refs/umpires act in such a way because of fan pressure.

    If I find the book I’ll post again with quotes and citations.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    It’s not that the visiting players get distracted, nervous etc.

    I’m surprised that’s true for the NFL. I see many football games where crowd noise affects the visiting quarterback, causing him to either take timeouts he otherwise would not need or suffer delay of game penalties.

  95. @guest007
    @Pincher Martin

    In a seeded tournament (power protect for the old fashioned), will usually produce lots of non-competitive games. When lower seed is the road team and two of the games were on a short week. Look up how well home teams do on short weeks.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    I think that’s true for many professional sports, but it seems to be less true for the NFL, where wild-card teams not infrequently can run the field to win the Lombardi. Reaching the Super Bowl for a wild-card team requires at least three consecutive road victories in today’s playoff format.

    In the NBA, it’s been nearly three decades since a team seeded lower than third in their conference won the NBA title, and that was the Hakeem Olajuwan-led Houston Rockets in 1995. And even the three seeds, who get at least one series with the home-court advantage, have rarely been crowned champs.

  96. @John Johnson
    @Buffalo Joe

    And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    What are you saying? The viewers shouldn't be allowed to know what happened?

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game. I don't want to back to when some bad call at the end could change a game. Still happens but not nearly as much as it used to. Cowboys fans are mad at the refs over the last game but that was a bad play call by the coach. Turrable in fact. QB draw down the middle with 14 seconds can go bad so many ways.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Gamecock, @animalogic

    John, you are aware that there are now “Booth Reviews” of plays that the refs apparently did not see. And to me, the call that ruins the game are the “Pass Interference” flags that seem to evolve week to week or even quarter to quarter. So viewers still don’t know what happened even when they see what happened. That’s why we have so many ref huddles where they review the call. Great commercial with all the refs huddled together trying to determine why a flag was throw. Fan in the stands yells ” Your mic is on.” Find it watch it.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Buffalo Joe

    John, you are aware that there are now “Booth Reviews” of plays that the refs apparently did not see. And to me, the call that ruins the game are the “Pass Interference” flags that seem to evolve week to week or even quarter to quarter.

    Yes I am aware of booth reviews. It is pretty rare that they make a bad call with them so I don't see the problem. Are you suggesting a return to au natural with no replays for anyone? I think taking a closer look at some of the more complex cases can make a game more interesting. You can kind of play along to see if you got it right. But it does slow down the game. I wouldn't pitch challenges in baseball for that reason.

    Passing interference and holding have always been problematic calls.

    I get annoyed when a team marches down the field over a passing interference but if we only gave out a 10 then players would do it intentionally on a long game saving pass. The other problem is that the ball has to be catchable for passing interference to be called. That can be difficult to determine.

  97. @John Johnson
    @Buffalo Joe

    And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    What are you saying? The viewers shouldn't be allowed to know what happened?

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game. I don't want to back to when some bad call at the end could change a game. Still happens but not nearly as much as it used to. Cowboys fans are mad at the refs over the last game but that was a bad play call by the coach. Turrable in fact. QB draw down the middle with 14 seconds can go bad so many ways.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Gamecock, @animalogic

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game.

    Heh!

    Gamecock will in fact stop fast forwarding a game to see the red flag challenge. Same with baseball. He finds the judgement fascinating. Usually more interesting than the game.

  98. @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    The 49ers tried to give that game back in the second half, but the over-rated, undisciplined, badly coached Cowboys managed to choke and die once again thanks to the incompetence of their $40 million/year QB who promptly blamed the refs.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Pincher Martin, @Gamecock

    Penalties. Penalties. Penalties.

    You can get away with no discipline against inferior opponents. Playoffs is a different world.

  99. @alaska3636
    There are 14 playoff teams this year.

    10 of them had winning home records.

    Of the 4 with losing home records, all but 1 failed to advance after the first playoff game.

    https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-home-team-win-loss-record-2021

    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.

    Replies: @alaska3636, @Reg Cæsar

    To expand further:

    Here is the data for road wins in 2021:
    https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-team-has-the-best-road-record-in-the-nfl-this-season

    A few more things stand out:

    5 teams average over 30 ppg at home vs only 2 teams on the road. Similar pattern for points against: more against on the road vs at home.

    I’m just eyeballing the data, but it looks pretty clear to me like home teams are more likely to perform better at home on average vs the road. The NFL had a fair amount of variability this year. I can’t find the link, but there was an individual team (The Vikings) who set a record for games decided by one score. The league as a whole generated a record number of one score games as well as blow outs this past year as well.

    At the ground level, this appears to be the fallacy of the hot hand fallacy. Most players would tell you they play better at home.

  100. @J.Ross
    OT Anon at 4chan claiming to work with kids reports what pretty much everyone on right wing radio has been fearing:

    I'm an Academic Support Specialist. 8th grade. I push-in [sic] to content classes and co-teach.
    This new generation cannot do the following
    --Accurately utilize the four operations (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division) up to four digit whole numbers
    --solve single step word problems up to two whole numbers utilizing the four operations
    --independently produce an informative paragraph that follows expected grammar conventions
    --produce two sentences that have sentence fluency together that follow expected grammar conventions
    --utilize any of the four operations with fractions or decimals
    --name all 50 states
    --name more than 10 Presidents
    You may be asking
    --Well gee anon, isn't that your job?
    No. It isn't. When a student enters 8th grade, they need to be able to multiply fractions, write a BIDENing paragraph, have a basic understanding of what the United States [is], recognize that paragraphs contain punctuation, and be able to solve a single step addition word problem.
    Send your kids to private schools and or leave the United States.
     
    Not only do masks & lockdowns not protect you from wuflu, they spread retardation.

    Replies: @JMcG

    Hell, the president of the United States can’t do any of those things either.

  101. @Pincher Martin
    @Jim Don Bob

    Yeah, Garoppolo nearly single-handed gave that game back to the Cowboys. First, the awful interception and then not waiting for his lineman to get set before going for a quarterback sneak on 4th and inches.

    And the Cowboys absolutely did not deserve to win that game. Bad coaching and bad quarterback play was a double whammy for them.

    Replies: @alaska3636

    In 52 seasons since the wild card system was installed (1970), only 7 wildcard teams have one a Super Bowl.

    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @alaska3636

    Is the purpose of the wildcard system to win or to make betting more interesting?

    , @Pincher Martin
    @alaska3636


    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.
     
    Of course. But when comparing the various professional sports' playoffs, I would say that the NFL has the most parity. Low-seeded teams can do very well in the NFL playoffs and occasionally even win it all.

    Look at it this way. The Milwaukee Bucks were the third seed in the Eastern Conference last year when they won the championship. That's not a low seed when eight teams can make it to the playoffs from each conference every year. The Bucks were in the top half of the bracket.

    And yet only eight teams seeded number three or lower since 1970 have won the NBA championship. They are...

    2021 - Milwaukee Bucks (3)

    2011 - Dallas Mavericks (3)

    2007 - San Antonio Spurs (3)

    2004 - Detroit Pistons (3)

    2002 - Los Angeles Lakers (3)

    1995 - Houston Rockets (6 of 8)

    1978 - Washington Bullets (3 of 6)

    1977 - Portland Trailblazers (3 of 6)

    So over the last fifty years, only the 1995 Houston Rockets managed to be in the lower half of the playoff bracket and still win the NBA Championship. Nearly 84% of NBA champions are seeded either number one or two in their conference, and 98% are seeded in the top three.

    I didn't check, but my sense is that playoff baseball is more wide open than the NBA, but not quite as wide open as the NFL.
  102. @R.G. Camara
    Back when I thought Bill Maher respectable, I watched his old ABC/Comedy Central show Politcally Incorrect. One show was themed around sports fanatics. They had some regular guy lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns, who was a member of the famous Browns "Dawg Pound", who dressed outrageously and made lots of noise. Also on Maher's panel was smarmy ESPN talking head Roy Firestone.

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn't matter and didn't influence the games at all, despite the regular guy's insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot. Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor. I've seen pro players get "rabbit ears" and have fan reactions get to them.

    As generals have known since the beginning of warfare, morale is one of the most important (if not the most important) factors in which army will win a battle, and that truth carries over to other competitions as well, including sports.

    That said, the Dawg Pound guy wasted a large portion of his precious life cheering on laundry and steroid-abusing pieces of crap all for a meaningless fooseball game. Too bad he never invested himself into something that would have helped society.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Reg Cæsar, @FPD72

    Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor.

    Jesse Ventura thrived on all the booing he got. He played the bad guy, and he said it was a sign he was doing his job effectively.

  103. @Buffalo Joe
    @kaganovitch

    kaga, thank you. It is worse in HS where I watched an obese ref have to take a knee to pick up his flag. Start a school. Train young eager recent college players. Test and re test and make them meet fitness levels. And yes, too many views and replays hurt. Ref sees play in real time from one position. Stay safe.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don’t make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Dan Jenkins pushed this for 50 years.

    Of course, the NFL won’t even make their officials full-time employees!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Brutusale

    Brute, thank you. It is worse in HS and college. Old farts out to make a few extra bucks, actually a lot of extra bucks, and they can't keep up with the play. Totally unfair to the players. In the NFL there are refs with over 20 years of experience, but they are pushing 60. Key thing would be to train and test new hires and require a fitness test. If you had a large enough pool then you could weed out the bad refs after a few games. I also wonder about integrity in the NFL. They now have official betting partners. There will be taint. I just thought of something. I used to have season tickets to the Bills. Sometimes I would get there early and watch the teams warm up. Never saw refs stretching or running laps. Has anyone?

    , @John Johnson
    @Brutusale

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don’t make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Of the ones hired most don't last more than 2 years. Average career length is 3.3 years.

    So there is a ton of churn with new players. They hire them as secondaries and then toss them.

    Of course, the NFL won’t even make their officials full-time employees!

    They weren't even paying the cheerleaders minimum wage.
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/nfl-cheerleaders-battle-minimum-wage-090000688.html

    Amazingly baseball is even worse. Single A players might as well give out handjobs for a chance to work in porn.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

  104. One more post for giggles.

    Since 1975, when the top seed of each conference was given home field advantage for the playoffs, 24 NFC champs and 23 AFC champs have made it to the Super Bowl. Only 8 top seeds have won the Super Bowl, however which goes to my ongoing point that statistically, home field is advantageous, good teams win at home and the NFL is highly variable, so stuff happens.

    https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2018/01/news-top-seeds/

  105. @Reg Cæsar

    The experience of soccer teams playing in front of empty stadiums during the pandemic suggests that the home field advantage is mostly due to cheering.
     
    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports, and the biggest home advantage. This has to be from "the nearness of you". What else? The air conditioning?

    In baseball, in contrast, since the 1990s, stadium design has favored quirky outfield fence angles to give the home team an advantage.
     
    Such differences were more dramatic back in the band-box era a century ago. What was the home-field advantage then? You played each team 11 times in its own park, so they'd become familiar.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @Brutusale, @Ganderson, @guest007, @Hibernian

    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports…

    I’d say it’s tied with football.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Hibernian

    Hiberian, true by field dimensions.but in some arenas the courtside fans are a few feet from the floor.Same in football some fans are way closer to the sidelines than at others, different look and feel.

    , @John Johnson
    @Hibernian


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports…
     
    I’d say it’s tied with football.

    The dimensions are uniform but there are other variables that can really change the game.

    Redskins would be a good example. For a while their stadium had basically a cheap high school football grass turf. That is how RGB was hurt. Their field actually had divots in it.

    Weather is also a factor. A fair weather team that plays the packers in the snow will be at a disadvantage if everything else is equal. Rodgers is aware of this and in fact prefers playing in nasty weather. Steelers are the same. They love playing a team at home in awful conditions. Both teams have more experience handling the ball in rain and snow.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  106. @Paleo Liberal
    @Jim Don Bob

    Notice how Mike McCarthy’s former team suddenly got a lot better once he left?

    Many Packers fans think the Packers would have won multiple Super Bowls with Rodgers with a better head coach.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Rodgers is worse than McCarthy. His prima donna attitude blatantly caused two of their four losses this year. (One, to the Saints, coming at the beginning of the season after his holdout. The second one, to KC, due to his COVID suspension.) One of the other two losses, to Detroit, was due to resting starters for at least a half, including Rodgers. The fourth loss, I believe, was to the Vikings, although I’m not 100% sure. I’d say that one can be charged to him too.

  107. @Brutusale
    @Reg Cæsar

    Duffy's Cliff at Fenway Park:
    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2003/08/baseball_duffys.php
    https://www.spudart.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Fenway-Park-left-field-once-featured-a-10-foot-incline-nicknamed-Duffys-Cliff-768x390.png

    The Triangle, made more substantial by the adding of the bullpens in 1940. They called it Williamsburg then, as it was designed to help Ted Williams by moving the fence in right field in 23 feet:
    https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenwayfanatics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcf_triangle1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    Home fans? Typical Dodger whine.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/dodgers-pitching-coach-rips-brutal-bullpen-taunting-fenway-202556698.html

    The beauty of Fenway Park is the closeness. The players hear everything you say to them. The bullpen setup makes for a long night for the visitors.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @james wilson, @RadicalCenter

    Before sellout crowds became a thing I was sitting near the rail in RF when Roy White came up top nine two on two out trailing by two. He hit a fly back to the short wall and Conigliaro had time to back to it but a fan took it away. Sox lost, Yankees won. Conigliaro was an Italian kid from Revere. I was a suburban kid from elsewhere. This is the first time I ever heard anybody curse like that. It was a performance.

  108. @Mike Tre
    @Greta Handel

    Nobody is talking about other countries. STFU.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    How’s this

    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world.

    not “talking about other countries”?

  109. Anon[196] • Disclaimer says:

    I found the reference I mentioned in my previous post:

    From The Fix is Still In, pages 53-54: “…So if it wasn’t any of those assumed factors, what caused a home team to win more often than it should? The authors came to a one-word conclusion. Referees….
    In the NFL, Moskowitz and Wertheim explained, “Home teams receive fewer penalties per game than away teams…similar results were found within the NBA. Home teams shoot more free throws than away teams–between 1 and 1.5 more per game. Why? Because away teams are called for more fouls, particularly shooting fouls. Away teams are also called for more turnovers and more violations….In the NHL, home teams in hockey get 20 percent fewer penalties called on them and receive fewer minutes in the box per penalty….the referees were unconsciously motivated to conform to the wishes of the home crowd…”

    The above claims come from a book titled Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played ad Games Are Won by Tobias Moskowitz and L. Jon Wertheim. One of those authors is a professor of finance.

    I haven’t read Scorecasting. To the question about why home field advantage exists, their answer is: referees being psychologically influenced by the home crowd.

  110. @alaska3636
    @Pincher Martin

    In 52 seasons since the wild card system was installed (1970), only 7 wildcard teams have one a Super Bowl.

    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pincher Martin

    Is the purpose of the wildcard system to win or to make betting more interesting?

  111. @Brutusale
    @Buffalo Joe

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don't make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Dan Jenkins pushed this for 50 years.

    Of course, the NFL won't even make their officials full-time employees!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

    Brute, thank you. It is worse in HS and college. Old farts out to make a few extra bucks, actually a lot of extra bucks, and they can’t keep up with the play. Totally unfair to the players. In the NFL there are refs with over 20 years of experience, but they are pushing 60. Key thing would be to train and test new hires and require a fitness test. If you had a large enough pool then you could weed out the bad refs after a few games. I also wonder about integrity in the NFL. They now have official betting partners. There will be taint. I just thought of something. I used to have season tickets to the Bills. Sometimes I would get there early and watch the teams warm up. Never saw refs stretching or running laps. Has anyone?

  112. @Hibernian
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports...
     
    I'd say it's tied with football.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

    Hiberian, true by field dimensions.but in some arenas the courtside fans are a few feet from the floor.Same in football some fans are way closer to the sidelines than at others, different look and feel.

  113. Covid reduced crowd size? The 12th man is missing?

  114. I did a quick Google search and I find lists of NFL Officials by name and uniform number and role and years of experience but not their age. Interesting. Average seems to be 51. Old enough to be fathers to a lot of players, too old to be running with them. My opinion, oh, and pay ranges from \$4000 to \$10,000 per game and none are full time.And once again, average age 51.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Buffalo Joe

    https://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/first-female-referee.jpg

    Replies: @PaceLaw

  115. @ScarletNumber
    @Alrenous

    Did you post this in the right place?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Mike Tre, @SaneClownPosse

    His/her position on the autism spectrum is making intelligent comments inappropriately.

    • Replies: @Alrenous
    @SaneClownPosse

    It's less home team advantage than away team disadvantage. They're being held back by the public shaming.

    Being shame-resistant is highly advantageous in the public-spectacle sporting leagues. Sadly being autistic is yet more disadvantageous for team sports, so they have to do it the hard way.

  116. @Buffalo Joe
    @John Johnson

    John, you are aware that there are now "Booth Reviews" of plays that the refs apparently did not see. And to me, the call that ruins the game are the "Pass Interference" flags that seem to evolve week to week or even quarter to quarter. So viewers still don't know what happened even when they see what happened. That's why we have so many ref huddles where they review the call. Great commercial with all the refs huddled together trying to determine why a flag was throw. Fan in the stands yells " Your mic is on." Find it watch it.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    John, you are aware that there are now “Booth Reviews” of plays that the refs apparently did not see. And to me, the call that ruins the game are the “Pass Interference” flags that seem to evolve week to week or even quarter to quarter.

    Yes I am aware of booth reviews. It is pretty rare that they make a bad call with them so I don’t see the problem. Are you suggesting a return to au natural with no replays for anyone? I think taking a closer look at some of the more complex cases can make a game more interesting. You can kind of play along to see if you got it right. But it does slow down the game. I wouldn’t pitch challenges in baseball for that reason.

    Passing interference and holding have always been problematic calls.

    I get annoyed when a team marches down the field over a passing interference but if we only gave out a 10 then players would do it intentionally on a long game saving pass. The other problem is that the ball has to be catchable for passing interference to be called. That can be difficult to determine.

  117. @Hibernian
    @Reg Cæsar


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports...
     
    I'd say it's tied with football.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports…

    I’d say it’s tied with football.

    The dimensions are uniform but there are other variables that can really change the game.

    Redskins would be a good example. For a while their stadium had basically a cheap high school football grass turf. That is how RGB was hurt. Their field actually had divots in it.

    Weather is also a factor. A fair weather team that plays the packers in the snow will be at a disadvantage if everything else is equal. Rodgers is aware of this and in fact prefers playing in nasty weather. Steelers are the same. They love playing a team at home in awful conditions. Both teams have more experience handling the ball in rain and snow.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @John Johnson


    A fair weather team that plays the Packers in the snow will be at a disadvantage if everything else is equal.
     
    No, the ice. Those below-zero weeks preserve the old snow, but add little more. Yesterday night was clear and -17°F, tonight is mildly snowy and may reach +17°F. Those 34 degrees make a big difference.

    For snow advantage, go to Buffalo. They are on the windward, i.e., snowward side of the Lakes.

    The Browns could have enjoyed the same, had they built their stadium several miles farther east, in snowy Euclid or Mentor, rather than in drier downtown.

    http://www.mentormeansbusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/mentormap.jpg

  118. @Brutusale
    @Buffalo Joe

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don't make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Dan Jenkins pushed this for 50 years.

    Of course, the NFL won't even make their officials full-time employees!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @John Johnson

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don’t make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Of the ones hired most don’t last more than 2 years. Average career length is 3.3 years.

    So there is a ton of churn with new players. They hire them as secondaries and then toss them.

    Of course, the NFL won’t even make their officials full-time employees!

    They weren’t even paying the cheerleaders minimum wage.
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/nfl-cheerleaders-battle-minimum-wage-090000688.html

    Amazingly baseball is even worse. Single A players might as well give out handjobs for a chance to work in porn.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @John Johnson

    Single A players might as well [censored].

    Officially, college players make ZILCH; there has been a little reform in that outrageous situation, recently.

    Keep in mind that when you see poor, Black kids knocking heads with one another on the gridiron, for a "national championship", that the White, head coaches are making $3M and the even Whiter, university "executives" are making $600K-$2M+. (Even the yahoos who sell soda make at least minimum wage.) Leave it to the government to pay its star employees as less than MW as is possible (to the left of zero when permanent injuries are factored in), while paying its most senior bureaucrats starting backfield-level salaries.

    The DEMs are exactly right to complain about corporate wage disparities, e.g. how executives make 50X more than the grunts. Of course in the government sector, that ratio is so lopsided (in its own favor) that one cannot even make sense of the quotient.

    Replies: @John Johnson

  119. @Buffalo Joe
    I did a quick Google search and I find lists of NFL Officials by name and uniform number and role and years of experience but not their age. Interesting. Average seems to be 51. Old enough to be fathers to a lot of players, too old to be running with them. My opinion, oh, and pay ranges from $4000 to $10,000 per game and none are full time.And once again, average age 51.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    @Mike Tre

    There hasn’t been a more honest thing spoken.

  120. @usNthem
    I imagine there's a lot less enthusiasm these days with respect to the major professional sports as a result of baseball games taking way too long and basketball/football being overly negrofied. More and more former fans simply don't give a s*** anymore - thus the proverbial home field advantage is negated. This is most likely the future of "sports".

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    So usNthem, you think there’s “ . . . a lot less enthusiasm” for the NFL? The exact opposite is true. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/18/sports/football/nfl-playoff-ratings.html

  121. @Mike Tre
    @Buffalo Joe

    https://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/first-female-referee.jpg

    Replies: @PaceLaw

    There hasn’t been a more honest thing spoken.

  122. @R.G. Camara
    Back when I thought Bill Maher respectable, I watched his old ABC/Comedy Central show Politcally Incorrect. One show was themed around sports fanatics. They had some regular guy lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns, who was a member of the famous Browns "Dawg Pound", who dressed outrageously and made lots of noise. Also on Maher's panel was smarmy ESPN talking head Roy Firestone.

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn't matter and didn't influence the games at all, despite the regular guy's insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns. The regular guy shot back that on at least one occasion a visiting coach had demanded that he and his fellow Dawgpounders be silenced and/or removed, and that his work demoralized the other team and invigorated the Browns players, who often thanked them.

    Firestone looked like an idiot. Yes, most fanatics well over estimate how much what they do helps their favorite team, but anyone could see that a large cheering section was going to be a factor. I've seen pro players get "rabbit ears" and have fan reactions get to them.

    As generals have known since the beginning of warfare, morale is one of the most important (if not the most important) factors in which army will win a battle, and that truth carries over to other competitions as well, including sports.

    That said, the Dawg Pound guy wasted a large portion of his precious life cheering on laundry and steroid-abusing pieces of crap all for a meaningless fooseball game. Too bad he never invested himself into something that would have helped society.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Reg Cæsar, @FPD72

    At one point, Firestone condescendingly and insultingly told the Dawg Pound guy that his presence at games didn’t matter and didn’t influence the games at all, despite the regular guy’s insistence that their cheering and booing and antics helped the Browns.

    My parents swore they influenced the outcome of the 1949 Cotton Bowl, which ended in a 10-10 tie between SMU and Penn State. My folks were seated in an end zone on the very bottom row. A Penn State tight end was wide open in the end zone and the QB launched a perfect pass toward him. My mother screamed, “DROP IT” as loud as she could. The TE did drop the pass and then turned around and glared at my mother for a couple of seconds before returning to the PSU huddle. PSU ended up kicking a field goal, leading to the eventual tie. Both of my parents swore to the truth of their telling of the story to their respective dying days.

    Firestone was obviously wrong.

  123. @alaska3636
    @Pincher Martin

    In 52 seasons since the wild card system was installed (1970), only 7 wildcard teams have one a Super Bowl.

    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pincher Martin

    The odds are in the favor of the favorite.

    Of course. But when comparing the various professional sports’ playoffs, I would say that the NFL has the most parity. Low-seeded teams can do very well in the NFL playoffs and occasionally even win it all.

    Look at it this way. The Milwaukee Bucks were the third seed in the Eastern Conference last year when they won the championship. That’s not a low seed when eight teams can make it to the playoffs from each conference every year. The Bucks were in the top half of the bracket.

    And yet only eight teams seeded number three or lower since 1970 have won the NBA championship. They are…

    2021 – Milwaukee Bucks (3)

    2011 – Dallas Mavericks (3)

    2007 – San Antonio Spurs (3)

    2004 – Detroit Pistons (3)

    2002 – Los Angeles Lakers (3)

    1995 – Houston Rockets (6 of 8)

    1978 – Washington Bullets (3 of 6)

    1977 – Portland Trailblazers (3 of 6)

    So over the last fifty years, only the 1995 Houston Rockets managed to be in the lower half of the playoff bracket and still win the NBA Championship. Nearly 84% of NBA champions are seeded either number one or two in their conference, and 98% are seeded in the top three.

    I didn’t check, but my sense is that playoff baseball is more wide open than the NBA, but not quite as wide open as the NFL.

  124. OT CDC (same people who said PCR tests are garbage) says exposure beats injection (for the delta variant, but not necessarily for other [fake] plagues). Man, I hope they don’t bump into the CDC, which required the PCR tests, and insisted that injection was better than exposure: they would fight on sight. WSJ has:

    Surviving a previous Covid-19 infection offered better protection than vaccination during the Delta wave, the CDC said, citing data from California and New York. The CDC said the research came as many people’s vaccine-induced immunity was waning and before the wider rollout of booster shots, as well as before the more-infectious Omicron variant began to spread widely. Some people have said recovering from infection should be treated as the equivalent of being vaccinated in areas with vaccination requirements. Public-health experts say vaccines are a better tool in part because they produce a relatively consistent immune response, compared with being infected with a virus that can cause long-term health problems and severe or fatal illness.

    This comes as the establishments of several developed countries and Scotland appear to be catching up to 4chan from years ago and losing blind faith in muzzles.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @J.Ross

    Here’s how getting sick works
    A You get infected
    B You get sick, perhaps very sick
    C You I. Die (1% chance) or II. Recover, possibly with long-term damage (studies differ on long term effects of covid)
    D If you recover, you likely have some immunity


    Here’s how vaccination works
    1 you get vaccinated
    2 if you get exposed, you either I. get mildly sick Or II do not get sick, or III die (0.1% chance)
    3 You recover with even more immunity

    Which is better? it depends on how you feel about step C in the “Here’s how getting sick works” scenario. You can quibble about what your personal odds of dying from covid are. When you calculate those odds, you should keep two things in mind. 1) Like the vast majority of men, you drastically overestimate how healthy you are, and 2) You are an anti-vaxxer. If you are like the anti-vaxxers who link to covid studies in the iSteve comment section, you are very bad at reading research papers, so you are probably going to miscalculate your odds of a very poor outcome.

    That said, here is where you are right: “experts” have done a terrible job from day 0 of the pandemic. They fucked up the FDA test kits. They did not recommend travel bans. They did not recommend that the US be told to shelter in place in Wuhan instead of being flown back to the US. Once back in the US, the government did not enforce quarantine by locking the “Americans” back from China in hotel rooms for three weeks. Instead, they asked them to stay home for three weeks. After fucking up the official covid test kits, no one at the CDC issued emergency “dizzam, yo! It’s a pandemic!” guidelines directing lower-level employees to focus on holistic harm reduction rather than the FDA’s normal mandate or do not approve anything with less than a decade of testing. The FDA should have included the cost of there not being any testing available in its calculus. Why did they do this? There are two realistic possibilities. A) They are The Swamp, so they wanted to make Orange Man Look Bad or B) They are bureaucrats when everyone smart in biomed is trying to make a fortune, so they are not smart and extremely personally cautious. They would rather 600k Americans die than they themselves approve a test with a 1% error rate.

    Rather than admit that Chinese “Americans” bought all the N95 masks in the retail distribution channels in America to send home to their families in China and decades of hollowing out of the American economy meant that we had next to no domestic mask manufacturing ability, Fauci himself got on TV to declare that there was “no evidence” that masks work.

    Rather than admit that they did not know whether one course of action was better than another, so they were making a guess, could be wrong, and recommendations would change as evidence came in, at every step they claimed that The Science supported whatever coin flip decision they made. They claimed everything was settled science and only ignorant, evil Nazis could disagree. They did this on masks incontrovertibly. The fact that every journalist in America did an about-face overnight does not give me great confidence in the independent, evidence-based nature of the profession.

    Before saying that everyone should stay home all the time (except for the plebes who delivered all the necessities of life to the so superior “knowledge” workers who were holier than thou in their social distancing) the NYC Health Department was tweeting that everyone should go hang out in Chinatown for Chinese New Year to show the coronavirus they weren’t racist. Into March, mainstream media were calling people who did not want to go to Chinese buffets racist. They called people racist for avoiding coughing Chinese people! Newspapers ran editorials from Asian women that the ray cysts were racisting them into suppressing their coughing reflexes.
    ...

    The “experts” said that developing a vaccine would take at least a decade. At least, that’s what “experts” told the NYT. If New York Times journalists cannot judge who has expertise in biology versus having a Rolodex (I'm so old!) or works with the medical regulatory industry so much that they do not understand the difference between how long making a vaccine takes compared to getting approval for a vaccine, then there is no meaning to ”expertise.” For something like coronavirus that does not infect cells necessary to mounting the immune response, is not hypervariable, and is not eukaryotic, creating the vaccine takes 1-2 months. Regulatory approval can take ten-twenty years. People said things like, “there are no vaccines for coronaviruses” as if it being a coronavirus was some sort of hurdle or obstacle. A retrovirus? Sure, that’d be difficult.

    After Trump’s operation warp speed, the media said any president would have cut regulatory red tape, but I'm not sure that’s true. Or one, they weren’t saying, “We could have a vaccine in a couple of months if the government lets us” before Trump's plan. The regulatory state is a Democratic constituency. All those FDA folk get paid to review each others’ work. It’s a house of cards, so if you take out one card, they could all be taking early retirement as Republicans streamline drug approval.

    I know that mRNA looks like new technology, but it’s been in development for over twenty years. Nucleic acid vaccines work well in model systems (animals you normal folk) but not in people. I don’t know why, but I don’t know that no one knows why.

    Despite all that, until 2021, vaccinology was not part of the culture war. Progs did not go into vaccinology to crush conservatives beneath the chariot wheels of their tolerance. People went into the field because they love vaccines.

    Again, “natural immunity” may be better, hell, it probably is, except for getting sick and maybe dying on your way from immunological naivete to recovered. And after that? If you weathered covid without myocarditis or any other non-lung pathology, then the vaccine won’t do you any harm! To a good approximation, we cannot do vaccines that are more effective than post-infection recovery (upcoming malaria vaccines will be exceptions), but they are not incredibly worse. Especially semi-active ones like mRNA. If the vaccine protection wanes in ~6 months, probably “natural immunity” does too.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  125. @Up2Drew
    @Reg Cæsar

    Agreed. As a long-time (and former) baseball fan, I once enjoyed the less "intense" atmosphere of baseball. I joined other knowledgeable friends in the stands, conversed on the game, the players, and focused our attention at appropriate moments.

    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert - my team is the White Sox, and my frequent companion is an intelligent fan who enjoys arriving early, watching batting practice, observing the players' work habits, discussing the team. Now it's so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can't have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers. Postseason is even worse - people who didn't attend a game all year constantly standing and screaming. Really annoying.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert – my team is the White Sox… Now it’s so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can’t have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers.

    Mets games on TV led me to believe Wrigley was the best ballpark in baseball. Real life showed that it wasn’t even the best in Chicago. Until 1990, that is.

    I told a housemate that Nancy Faust was the best organist in baseball. He countered, who cares who the organist is? That’s the point– she made you care. Just for that she belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    I attended one game at the new stadium and was horrified to see hear that she had been demoted, often drowned out by speaker “music”. Just yards from the site of the Disco Demolition Derby!

    At least they didn’t fire her. Like the pissing-boy statue in the old picnic area.

    • Replies: @Up2Drew
    @Reg Cæsar

    Don't get me started on how galactically overrated Wrigley Field is. Is there an element of charm to a stadium where they've been playing the sport for over 100 years? Of course. But, objectively, as a venue? Awful. Why in the world you'd attend a concert there is far beyond me.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  126. @Barnard
    @slumber_j

    Los Angeles didn't have an NFL team for 22 years and has a lot of people who moved to the area from other parts of the country who weren't necessarily going to shed their loyalty to their old team to root for the Rams. With the Chargers it is worse, because of the way they were moved from San Diego, locals don't want to root for them, and their historic fan base in San Diego was angry about the move. The two baseball teams in Florida are even worse at getting locals to support them.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    Both of the Marlins’ World Series victories were followed by rapid wholescale gutting of the team. Not a good way to encourage long-term fan support.

  127. @alaska3636
    There are 14 playoff teams this year.

    10 of them had winning home records.

    Of the 4 with losing home records, all but 1 failed to advance after the first playoff game.

    https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-home-team-win-loss-record-2021

    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.

    Replies: @alaska3636, @Reg Cæsar

    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.

    We live a few hours to the west, but near their latitude. I walked the dog tonight at -6°F, and later moved the cars (alternate-side rule in effect) at -17°F. Maybe ten minutes for each task. Extrapolate that to three hours, with periodic slams into the frozen tundra turf, and you can see why visitors from the Sunbelt might be less than effective.

    Actually, the clear days are the coldest. Clouds keep some of the heat in. Over time, people got wise to this deceptive plate; newer ones say “Friendly”:

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @Reg Cæsar

    Conversely, Northern and Western teams may have a little trouble playing in Southern humidity.

    I wonder if anyone has looked at the effect of time zone changes on game results.

    I would think the Broncos would have a distinct advantage both at home and playing at lower altitudes. But there's a lot more time between plays now with all the commercials and reviews.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  128. @Stan Adams
    Any thoughts on the rumor that the tsunami was caused by a Russian undersea nuclear test?

    Replies: @The Ringmaster, @J.Ross

    The volcano had been bubbling away mightily for over a month, so the big boom wasn’t that much of a shock to geology. And maybe a bigger one is on the way, although probably not. They’re having a hard time monitoring it right now, due it being a disaster zone in the middle of nowhere. And being remote feeds unlikely hype/hypotheses, just like those poor multitudinous polar bears allegedly suffering from global warming. Or the xyz Antarctic glacier which will go any day now.

    Of course the Russian Pacific fleet has boomers and the rest, wandering hither & yon. But every generic natural disaster these days attracts bizarre teleological ideas, especially since the normalisation of weed.

  129. @NJ Transit Commuter
    @Anon

    Went to an NFL game for the first time in over a decade this year, at Sofi Stadium*. Once change I noticed, and hate, is the artificial way they try to pump up crowd noise, especially on 3rd downs for the away team. If a team’s fans can’t be enthusiastic enough to make noise without encouragement, they deserve to lose!

    *My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football. If only America put the same effort into other endeavors as we do for the NFL...

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @Russ, @Jim Christian

    *

    My other impression is that when America takes something seriously, we are still the best in the world. Sofi Stadium is an architectural marvel, perfectly designed to watch football.

    NJ, I’ve been to AT&T, Jarruhworld (a vast structure), the Toaster in AZ, Link in Philly and my own home stadium, FedEx in Landover Maryland, home of the Skins. Many others mostly for free. FedEx sucks, I have more respect for the old RFK stadium as a structure, old as it is. I did a fair amount of phone in several DC stadiums and arenas over the years, NJ, you wouldn’t believe the complexity of those operations behind the scenes. A marvel.
    The treat for me is always examining the structure and asking myself how the hell did they DO this? Obviously by being smarter than I. For engineering quality however my new go-to is the Webb telescope. Amazing stuff AND a bargain for 10 billion.

  130. @J.Ross
    OT CDC (same people who said PCR tests are garbage) says exposure beats injection (for the delta variant, but not necessarily for other [fake] plagues). Man, I hope they don't bump into the CDC, which required the PCR tests, and insisted that injection was better than exposure: they would fight on sight. WSJ has:

    Surviving a previous Covid-19 infection offered better protection than vaccination during the Delta wave, the CDC said, citing data from California and New York. The CDC said the research came as many people’s vaccine-induced immunity was waning and before the wider rollout of booster shots, as well as before the more-infectious Omicron variant began to spread widely. Some people have said recovering from infection should be treated as the equivalent of being vaccinated in areas with vaccination requirements. Public-health experts say vaccines are a better tool in part because they produce a relatively consistent immune response, compared with being infected with a virus that can cause long-term health problems and severe or fatal illness.
     
    This comes as the establishments of several developed countries and Scotland appear to be catching up to 4chan from years ago and losing blind faith in muzzles.

    Replies: @Rob

    Here’s how getting sick works
    A You get infected
    B You get sick, perhaps very sick
    C You I. Die (1% chance) or II. Recover, possibly with long-term damage (studies differ on long term effects of covid)
    D If you recover, you likely have some immunity

    Here’s how vaccination works
    1 you get vaccinated
    2 if you get exposed, you either I. get mildly sick Or II do not get sick, or III die (0.1% chance)
    3 You recover with even more immunity

    Which is better? it depends on how you feel about step C in the “Here’s how getting sick works” scenario. You can quibble about what your personal odds of dying from covid are. When you calculate those odds, you should keep two things in mind. 1) Like the vast majority of men, you drastically overestimate how healthy you are, and 2) You are an anti-vaxxer. If you are like the anti-vaxxers who link to covid studies in the iSteve comment section, you are very bad at reading research papers, so you are probably going to miscalculate your odds of a very poor outcome.

    [MORE]

    That said, here is where you are right: “experts” have done a terrible job from day 0 of the pandemic. They fucked up the FDA test kits. They did not recommend travel bans. They did not recommend that the US be told to shelter in place in Wuhan instead of being flown back to the US. Once back in the US, the government did not enforce quarantine by locking the “Americans” back from China in hotel rooms for three weeks. Instead, they asked them to stay home for three weeks. After fucking up the official covid test kits, no one at the CDC issued emergency “dizzam, yo! It’s a pandemic!” guidelines directing lower-level employees to focus on holistic harm reduction rather than the FDA’s normal mandate or do not approve anything with less than a decade of testing. The FDA should have included the cost of there not being any testing available in its calculus. Why did they do this? There are two realistic possibilities. A) They are The Swamp, so they wanted to make Orange Man Look Bad or B) They are bureaucrats when everyone smart in biomed is trying to make a fortune, so they are not smart and extremely personally cautious. They would rather 600k Americans die than they themselves approve a test with a 1% error rate.

    Rather than admit that Chinese “Americans” bought all the N95 masks in the retail distribution channels in America to send home to their families in China and decades of hollowing out of the American economy meant that we had next to no domestic mask manufacturing ability, Fauci himself got on TV to declare that there was “no evidence” that masks work.

    Rather than admit that they did not know whether one course of action was better than another, so they were making a guess, could be wrong, and recommendations would change as evidence came in, at every step they claimed that The Science supported whatever coin flip decision they made. They claimed everything was settled science and only ignorant, evil Nazis could disagree. They did this on masks incontrovertibly. The fact that every journalist in America did an about-face overnight does not give me great confidence in the independent, evidence-based nature of the profession.

    Before saying that everyone should stay home all the time (except for the plebes who delivered all the necessities of life to the so superior “knowledge” workers who were holier than thou in their social distancing) the NYC Health Department was tweeting that everyone should go hang out in Chinatown for Chinese New Year to show the coronavirus they weren’t racist. Into March, mainstream media were calling people who did not want to go to Chinese buffets racist. They called people racist for avoiding coughing Chinese people! Newspapers ran editorials from Asian women that the ray cysts were racisting them into suppressing their coughing reflexes.

    The “experts” said that developing a vaccine would take at least a decade. At least, that’s what “experts” told the NYT. If New York Times journalists cannot judge who has expertise in biology versus having a Rolodex (I’m so old!) or works with the medical regulatory industry so much that they do not understand the difference between how long making a vaccine takes compared to getting approval for a vaccine, then there is no meaning to ”expertise.” For something like coronavirus that does not infect cells necessary to mounting the immune response, is not hypervariable, and is not eukaryotic, creating the vaccine takes 1-2 months. Regulatory approval can take ten-twenty years. People said things like, “there are no vaccines for coronaviruses” as if it being a coronavirus was some sort of hurdle or obstacle. A retrovirus? Sure, that’d be difficult.

    After Trump’s operation warp speed, the media said any president would have cut regulatory red tape, but I’m not sure that’s true. Or one, they weren’t saying, “We could have a vaccine in a couple of months if the government lets us” before Trump’s plan. The regulatory state is a Democratic constituency. All those FDA folk get paid to review each others’ work. It’s a house of cards, so if you take out one card, they could all be taking early retirement as Republicans streamline drug approval.

    I know that mRNA looks like new technology, but it’s been in development for over twenty years. Nucleic acid vaccines work well in model systems (animals you normal folk) but not in people. I don’t know why, but I don’t know that no one knows why.

    Despite all that, until 2021, vaccinology was not part of the culture war. Progs did not go into vaccinology to crush conservatives beneath the chariot wheels of their tolerance. People went into the field because they love vaccines.

    Again, “natural immunity” may be better, hell, it probably is, except for getting sick and maybe dying on your way from immunological naivete to recovered. And after that? If you weathered covid without myocarditis or any other non-lung pathology, then the vaccine won’t do you any harm! To a good approximation, we cannot do vaccines that are more effective than post-infection recovery (upcoming malaria vaccines will be exceptions), but they are not incredibly worse. Especially semi-active ones like mRNA. If the vaccine protection wanes in ~6 months, probably “natural immunity” does too.

    • Thanks: ben tillman
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Rob

    ... not sure why you bring up vaccination. The comparison was between the propped-up monopolistic treatment and natural immunity.

  131. @Rob
    @J.Ross

    Here’s how getting sick works
    A You get infected
    B You get sick, perhaps very sick
    C You I. Die (1% chance) or II. Recover, possibly with long-term damage (studies differ on long term effects of covid)
    D If you recover, you likely have some immunity


    Here’s how vaccination works
    1 you get vaccinated
    2 if you get exposed, you either I. get mildly sick Or II do not get sick, or III die (0.1% chance)
    3 You recover with even more immunity

    Which is better? it depends on how you feel about step C in the “Here’s how getting sick works” scenario. You can quibble about what your personal odds of dying from covid are. When you calculate those odds, you should keep two things in mind. 1) Like the vast majority of men, you drastically overestimate how healthy you are, and 2) You are an anti-vaxxer. If you are like the anti-vaxxers who link to covid studies in the iSteve comment section, you are very bad at reading research papers, so you are probably going to miscalculate your odds of a very poor outcome.

    That said, here is where you are right: “experts” have done a terrible job from day 0 of the pandemic. They fucked up the FDA test kits. They did not recommend travel bans. They did not recommend that the US be told to shelter in place in Wuhan instead of being flown back to the US. Once back in the US, the government did not enforce quarantine by locking the “Americans” back from China in hotel rooms for three weeks. Instead, they asked them to stay home for three weeks. After fucking up the official covid test kits, no one at the CDC issued emergency “dizzam, yo! It’s a pandemic!” guidelines directing lower-level employees to focus on holistic harm reduction rather than the FDA’s normal mandate or do not approve anything with less than a decade of testing. The FDA should have included the cost of there not being any testing available in its calculus. Why did they do this? There are two realistic possibilities. A) They are The Swamp, so they wanted to make Orange Man Look Bad or B) They are bureaucrats when everyone smart in biomed is trying to make a fortune, so they are not smart and extremely personally cautious. They would rather 600k Americans die than they themselves approve a test with a 1% error rate.

    Rather than admit that Chinese “Americans” bought all the N95 masks in the retail distribution channels in America to send home to their families in China and decades of hollowing out of the American economy meant that we had next to no domestic mask manufacturing ability, Fauci himself got on TV to declare that there was “no evidence” that masks work.

    Rather than admit that they did not know whether one course of action was better than another, so they were making a guess, could be wrong, and recommendations would change as evidence came in, at every step they claimed that The Science supported whatever coin flip decision they made. They claimed everything was settled science and only ignorant, evil Nazis could disagree. They did this on masks incontrovertibly. The fact that every journalist in America did an about-face overnight does not give me great confidence in the independent, evidence-based nature of the profession.

    Before saying that everyone should stay home all the time (except for the plebes who delivered all the necessities of life to the so superior “knowledge” workers who were holier than thou in their social distancing) the NYC Health Department was tweeting that everyone should go hang out in Chinatown for Chinese New Year to show the coronavirus they weren’t racist. Into March, mainstream media were calling people who did not want to go to Chinese buffets racist. They called people racist for avoiding coughing Chinese people! Newspapers ran editorials from Asian women that the ray cysts were racisting them into suppressing their coughing reflexes.
    ...

    The “experts” said that developing a vaccine would take at least a decade. At least, that’s what “experts” told the NYT. If New York Times journalists cannot judge who has expertise in biology versus having a Rolodex (I'm so old!) or works with the medical regulatory industry so much that they do not understand the difference between how long making a vaccine takes compared to getting approval for a vaccine, then there is no meaning to ”expertise.” For something like coronavirus that does not infect cells necessary to mounting the immune response, is not hypervariable, and is not eukaryotic, creating the vaccine takes 1-2 months. Regulatory approval can take ten-twenty years. People said things like, “there are no vaccines for coronaviruses” as if it being a coronavirus was some sort of hurdle or obstacle. A retrovirus? Sure, that’d be difficult.

    After Trump’s operation warp speed, the media said any president would have cut regulatory red tape, but I'm not sure that’s true. Or one, they weren’t saying, “We could have a vaccine in a couple of months if the government lets us” before Trump's plan. The regulatory state is a Democratic constituency. All those FDA folk get paid to review each others’ work. It’s a house of cards, so if you take out one card, they could all be taking early retirement as Republicans streamline drug approval.

    I know that mRNA looks like new technology, but it’s been in development for over twenty years. Nucleic acid vaccines work well in model systems (animals you normal folk) but not in people. I don’t know why, but I don’t know that no one knows why.

    Despite all that, until 2021, vaccinology was not part of the culture war. Progs did not go into vaccinology to crush conservatives beneath the chariot wheels of their tolerance. People went into the field because they love vaccines.

    Again, “natural immunity” may be better, hell, it probably is, except for getting sick and maybe dying on your way from immunological naivete to recovered. And after that? If you weathered covid without myocarditis or any other non-lung pathology, then the vaccine won’t do you any harm! To a good approximation, we cannot do vaccines that are more effective than post-infection recovery (upcoming malaria vaccines will be exceptions), but they are not incredibly worse. Especially semi-active ones like mRNA. If the vaccine protection wanes in ~6 months, probably “natural immunity” does too.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    … not sure why you bring up vaccination. The comparison was between the propped-up monopolistic treatment and natural immunity.

  132. @Stan Adams
    Any thoughts on the rumor that the tsunami was caused by a Russian undersea nuclear test?

    Replies: @The Ringmaster, @J.Ross

    If it was a Russian nuke it means that Joseph Robinette Biden, most popular candidate in the history of democracy, got defeated before the fighting started. Is anything observable happening which might bear this out, like a confused backing down over Ukraine?

  133. @Buffalo Joe
    @Anon

    ThreeFiveFive, Seattle reportedly has the loudest crowd noise, partly because of their stangely shaped stadium, but Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson didn't get it done this year.

    Replies: @animalogic

    Don’t they call the Seattle fans “the 12th man” or something?

  134. @Pincher Martin
    And yet the home teams just won five out of the six playoff games this last weekend. Only the visiting 49ers could beat the Cowboys in Arlington. Most of the other games weren't even close.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @guest007, @ben tillman

    If your punt team converts a 4th-and-5 (pass) and a 4th-and-13 (penalty) into first downs, the rest of the team has to be really bad to lose the game.

    That 40-second runoff plus 5-yard penalty after the fake punt was worse than anything I saw Dino Babers do this year.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @ben tillman


    That 40-second runoff plus 5-yard penalty after the fake punt was worse than anything I saw Dino Babers do this year.
     
    That was crazy.
  135. @Reg Cæsar
    @alaska3636


    Good teams win at home. The Packers are 22-2 at home over the last 3 years.
     
    We live a few hours to the west, but near their latitude. I walked the dog tonight at -6°F, and later moved the cars (alternate-side rule in effect) at -17°F. Maybe ten minutes for each task. Extrapolate that to three hours, with periodic slams into the frozen tundra turf, and you can see why visitors from the Sunbelt might be less than effective.

    Actually, the clear days are the coldest. Clouds keep some of the heat in. Over time, people got wise to this deceptive plate; newer ones say "Friendly":

    https://www.15q.net/cdn/mb75.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L

    Conversely, Northern and Western teams may have a little trouble playing in Southern humidity.

    I wonder if anyone has looked at the effect of time zone changes on game results.

    I would think the Broncos would have a distinct advantage both at home and playing at lower altitudes. But there’s a lot more time between plays now with all the commercials and reviews.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Ralph L


    I wonder if anyone has looked at the effect of time zone changes on game results.
     
    I think this is a primary reason it's rare to win a World Cup on another continent. Europe had an edge in South Africa, where Spain prevailed,, and Japan/Korea was equally bad for everyone except Australia and the host sides. Brazil won in Sweden in 1958, and until recently this was the only exception.

    It might also explain our embarrassing 1-0 victory in Belo Horizonte over England in 1950. The goal was scored by a Haitian, Joe Gaetens, who may or may not have qualified to represent us.

    Latins are playing early in their morning in Europe. Europeans playing in Latin America at night are playing after their midnight.
  136. @John Johnson
    @Buffalo Joe

    And replay hurts the game as we see most plays from above the field, unobstructed from six angles.

    What are you saying? The viewers shouldn't be allowed to know what happened?

    Reviewed plays and challenges have improved the game. I don't want to back to when some bad call at the end could change a game. Still happens but not nearly as much as it used to. Cowboys fans are mad at the refs over the last game but that was a bad play call by the coach. Turrable in fact. QB draw down the middle with 14 seconds can go bad so many ways.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Gamecock, @animalogic

    There’s so much wrong with soccer it’s hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them. My god how long did they resist even having goal-line cameras/reviews ?
    The corruption, the BS excuses, the fetish with skill over everything else (the “beautiful game crap) — god give me strength….

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @animalogic


    There’s so much wrong with soccer it’s hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them.
     
    On the other hand, they haven't succumbed to the division-and-"playoff" money-making scam that plagues North American sports. First place still means something.

    "Berths" are for sleeping!


    https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1328749952l/66401.jpg
    , @Joe Joe
    @animalogic

    One theory I've heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) with one referee and two linesmen. Only top level teams can afford video replay. I think all the big money flowing into top level soccer has forced the authorities to add video replay to make sure the important calls are made correctly

    Replies: @animalogic

  137. @Brutusale
    @Reg Cæsar

    Duffy's Cliff at Fenway Park:
    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2003/08/baseball_duffys.php
    https://www.spudart.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Fenway-Park-left-field-once-featured-a-10-foot-incline-nicknamed-Duffys-Cliff-768x390.png

    The Triangle, made more substantial by the adding of the bullpens in 1940. They called it Williamsburg then, as it was designed to help Ted Williams by moving the fence in right field in 23 feet:
    https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenwayfanatics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcf_triangle1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    Home fans? Typical Dodger whine.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/dodgers-pitching-coach-rips-brutal-bullpen-taunting-fenway-202556698.html

    The beauty of Fenway Park is the closeness. The players hear everything you say to them. The bullpen setup makes for a long night for the visitors.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @james wilson, @RadicalCenter

    Fenway, like Boston, is overrated, overpriced, and not worthwhile.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @RadicalCenter

    The two guys from Arizona who offered me $500 for my two tickets to a $ox-Yankee$ game back in the 90s to the contrary.

  138. @Ron Mexico
    @Greta Handel

    "Have you considered that other countries may not take “our” Exceptional! banalities seriously?" Yeah, the rest of the world that worships soccer (futbol), a sport that has 90 to 100 minutes of jogging and walking resulting in 2-0 scores. 10 shots on goal. Just as many fake injuries. Continuous whining to the one referee on the field. Meanwhile, hooligans doing hooligan things before, during and after the game... banal.

    Replies: @animalogic

    Oh, god, I forgot about the “fake injuries”. Pathetic. (one minute in visible agony, next, up & running). Which reminds me how much “penalies” are exploited by ALL sides. The naive might call all this shit “cheating”….

  139. @Reg Cæsar
    @Up2Drew


    Now baseball games are a freaking rock concert – my team is the White Sox... Now it’s so loud, from the minute they open the gates, you literally can’t have a conversation in a normal tone of voice because of the relentless 120 db music and promos pounding from the speakers.
     
    Mets games on TV led me to believe Wrigley was the best ballpark in baseball. Real life showed that it wasn't even the best in Chicago. Until 1990, that is.

    I told a housemate that Nancy Faust was the best organist in baseball. He countered, who cares who the organist is? That's the point-- she made you care. Just for that she belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    I attended one game at the new stadium and was horrified to see hear that she had been demoted, often drowned out by speaker "music". Just yards from the site of the Disco Demolition Derby!

    At least they didn't fire her. Like the pissing-boy statue in the old picnic area.

    Replies: @Up2Drew

    Don’t get me started on how galactically overrated Wrigley Field is. Is there an element of charm to a stadium where they’ve been playing the sport for over 100 years? Of course. But, objectively, as a venue? Awful. Why in the world you’d attend a concert there is far beyond me.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Up2Drew

    I thought Old Comiskey Park on the South Side of Chicago was more charming in the 1980s than was Wrigley Field. But I could walk to Wrigley, which was charming.

    Replies: @MC

  140. @John Johnson
    @Brutusale

    Every year there are hundreds of college football players who don’t make the NFL. It stands to reason that there would be a good number of them with the all the necessary abilities that make a good zebra. You hire them, train the crap out of them, then put them to work.

    Of the ones hired most don't last more than 2 years. Average career length is 3.3 years.

    So there is a ton of churn with new players. They hire them as secondaries and then toss them.

    Of course, the NFL won’t even make their officials full-time employees!

    They weren't even paying the cheerleaders minimum wage.
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/nfl-cheerleaders-battle-minimum-wage-090000688.html

    Amazingly baseball is even worse. Single A players might as well give out handjobs for a chance to work in porn.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    Single A players might as well [censored].

    Officially, college players make ZILCH; there has been a little reform in that outrageous situation, recently.

    Keep in mind that when you see poor, Black kids knocking heads with one another on the gridiron, for a “national championship”, that the White, head coaches are making \$3M and the even Whiter, university “executives” are making \$600K-\$2M+. (Even the yahoos who sell soda make at least minimum wage.) Leave it to the government to pay its star employees as less than MW as is possible (to the left of zero when permanent injuries are factored in), while paying its most senior bureaucrats starting backfield-level salaries.

    The DEMs are exactly right to complain about corporate wage disparities, e.g. how executives make 50X more than the grunts. Of course in the government sector, that ratio is so lopsided (in its own favor) that one cannot even make sense of the quotient.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Abolish_public_education

    Officially, college players make ZILCH; there has been a little reform in that outrageous situation, recently.

    I have seen what goes on behind the scenes for athletes and they definitely should not be paid.

    They already get a degree that they didn't earn.

    The corruption is unbelievable. I was straight up told by a liberal professor that the athletes aren't in the same program. Gee whiz I could I have sworn there was only once class to register for and not a special athletic scholarship version.

    I pointed out that they were supposed to follow the same class expectations and she got annoyed.

    It's amazing how fast liberals will drop their arrogance once they are cornered.

  141. @Up2Drew
    @Reg Cæsar

    Don't get me started on how galactically overrated Wrigley Field is. Is there an element of charm to a stadium where they've been playing the sport for over 100 years? Of course. But, objectively, as a venue? Awful. Why in the world you'd attend a concert there is far beyond me.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I thought Old Comiskey Park on the South Side of Chicago was more charming in the 1980s than was Wrigley Field. But I could walk to Wrigley, which was charming.

    • Replies: @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    If the White Sox had waited even 5 more years they'd have realized that there was more value in renovating Comiskey than building a non-descript modern stadium.

    OTOH, the Yankees seem not to have learned that lesson.

  142. @ben tillman
    @Pincher Martin

    If your punt team converts a 4th-and-5 (pass) and a 4th-and-13 (penalty) into first downs, the rest of the team has to be really bad to lose the game.

    That 40-second runoff plus 5-yard penalty after the fake punt was worse than anything I saw Dino Babers do this year.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    That 40-second runoff plus 5-yard penalty after the fake punt was worse than anything I saw Dino Babers do this year.

    That was crazy.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  143. @Steve Sailer
    @Up2Drew

    I thought Old Comiskey Park on the South Side of Chicago was more charming in the 1980s than was Wrigley Field. But I could walk to Wrigley, which was charming.

    Replies: @MC

    If the White Sox had waited even 5 more years they’d have realized that there was more value in renovating Comiskey than building a non-descript modern stadium.

    OTOH, the Yankees seem not to have learned that lesson.

  144. @Ralph L
    @Reg Cæsar

    Conversely, Northern and Western teams may have a little trouble playing in Southern humidity.

    I wonder if anyone has looked at the effect of time zone changes on game results.

    I would think the Broncos would have a distinct advantage both at home and playing at lower altitudes. But there's a lot more time between plays now with all the commercials and reviews.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I wonder if anyone has looked at the effect of time zone changes on game results.

    I think this is a primary reason it’s rare to win a World Cup on another continent. Europe had an edge in South Africa, where Spain prevailed,, and Japan/Korea was equally bad for everyone except Australia and the host sides. Brazil won in Sweden in 1958, and until recently this was the only exception.

    It might also explain our embarrassing 1-0 victory in Belo Horizonte over England in 1950. The goal was scored by a Haitian, Joe Gaetens, who may or may not have qualified to represent us.

    Latins are playing early in their morning in Europe. Europeans playing in Latin America at night are playing after their midnight.

  145. @animalogic
    @John Johnson

    There's so much wrong with soccer it's hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them. My god how long did they resist even having goal-line cameras/reviews ?
    The corruption, the BS excuses, the fetish with skill over everything else (the "beautiful game crap) -- god give me strength....

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Joe Joe

    There’s so much wrong with soccer it’s hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them.

    On the other hand, they haven’t succumbed to the division-and-“playoff” money-making scam that plagues North American sports. First place still means something.

    “Berths” are for sleeping!

  146. @Abolish_public_education
    @John Johnson

    Single A players might as well [censored].

    Officially, college players make ZILCH; there has been a little reform in that outrageous situation, recently.

    Keep in mind that when you see poor, Black kids knocking heads with one another on the gridiron, for a "national championship", that the White, head coaches are making $3M and the even Whiter, university "executives" are making $600K-$2M+. (Even the yahoos who sell soda make at least minimum wage.) Leave it to the government to pay its star employees as less than MW as is possible (to the left of zero when permanent injuries are factored in), while paying its most senior bureaucrats starting backfield-level salaries.

    The DEMs are exactly right to complain about corporate wage disparities, e.g. how executives make 50X more than the grunts. Of course in the government sector, that ratio is so lopsided (in its own favor) that one cannot even make sense of the quotient.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    Officially, college players make ZILCH; there has been a little reform in that outrageous situation, recently.

    I have seen what goes on behind the scenes for athletes and they definitely should not be paid.

    They already get a degree that they didn’t earn.

    The corruption is unbelievable. I was straight up told by a liberal professor that the athletes aren’t in the same program. Gee whiz I could I have sworn there was only once class to register for and not a special athletic scholarship version.

    I pointed out that they were supposed to follow the same class expectations and she got annoyed.

    It’s amazing how fast liberals will drop their arrogance once they are cornered.

  147. @John Johnson
    @Hibernian


    Basketball has the most uniform playing area in the major North American team sports…
     
    I’d say it’s tied with football.

    The dimensions are uniform but there are other variables that can really change the game.

    Redskins would be a good example. For a while their stadium had basically a cheap high school football grass turf. That is how RGB was hurt. Their field actually had divots in it.

    Weather is also a factor. A fair weather team that plays the packers in the snow will be at a disadvantage if everything else is equal. Rodgers is aware of this and in fact prefers playing in nasty weather. Steelers are the same. They love playing a team at home in awful conditions. Both teams have more experience handling the ball in rain and snow.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A fair weather team that plays the Packers in the snow will be at a disadvantage if everything else is equal.

    No, the ice. Those below-zero weeks preserve the old snow, but add little more. Yesterday night was clear and -17°F, tonight is mildly snowy and may reach +17°F. Those 34 degrees make a big difference.

    For snow advantage, go to Buffalo. They are on the windward, i.e., snowward side of the Lakes.

    The Browns could have enjoyed the same, had they built their stadium several miles farther east, in snowy Euclid or Mentor, rather than in drier downtown.

  148. @SaneClownPosse
    @ScarletNumber

    His/her position on the autism spectrum is making intelligent comments inappropriately.

    Replies: @Alrenous

    It’s less home team advantage than away team disadvantage. They’re being held back by the public shaming.

    Being shame-resistant is highly advantageous in the public-spectacle sporting leagues. Sadly being autistic is yet more disadvantageous for team sports, so they have to do it the hard way.

  149. @RadicalCenter
    @Brutusale

    Fenway, like Boston, is overrated, overpriced, and not worthwhile.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    The two guys from Arizona who offered me \$500 for my two tickets to a \$ox-Yankee\$ game back in the 90s to the contrary.

  150. LA 30 TB 27
    Home team is now 0-3 on Division playoff weekend.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    And the Buffalo Bills were 13 seconds away from making it 0-4 for the home teams.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  151. Well, three NFL playoff games this weekend are over (with one to go) and the underdog visiting teams have won all three on last-second field goals.

    The two #1 seeds are both out of the playoffs with not a single playoff victory between them this year.

    And the NFC championship will feature two California teams, with the lower seeded 49ers having already beaten the #4 seed LA Rams six consecutive times.

  152. @Emil Nikola Richard
    LA 30 TB 27
    Home team is now 0-3 on Division playoff weekend.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    And the Buffalo Bills were 13 seconds away from making it 0-4 for the home teams.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    And the Buffalo Bills season came down to losing a coin toss. Each team in overtime should have one set of downs to answer the other team's scoring. Teams that win the coin toss are 10-1 which is completely unfair.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  153. @Pincher Martin
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    And the Buffalo Bills were 13 seconds away from making it 0-4 for the home teams.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    And the Buffalo Bills season came down to losing a coin toss. Each team in overtime should have one set of downs to answer the other team’s scoring. Teams that win the coin toss are 10-1 which is completely unfair.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Jim Don Bob

    I agree that the way Allen and Mahomes were playing at the end of the regulation made the coin toss critical.

    But come on. Make a stop. Just for thirteen seconds, make a stop. The Bills' defense looked like they were enjoying watching Mahomes play just as much as the audience was enjoying watching him play.

  154. @Jim Don Bob
    @Pincher Martin

    And the Buffalo Bills season came down to losing a coin toss. Each team in overtime should have one set of downs to answer the other team's scoring. Teams that win the coin toss are 10-1 which is completely unfair.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    I agree that the way Allen and Mahomes were playing at the end of the regulation made the coin toss critical.

    But come on. Make a stop. Just for thirteen seconds, make a stop. The Bills’ defense looked like they were enjoying watching Mahomes play just as much as the audience was enjoying watching him play.

  155. @animalogic
    @John Johnson

    There's so much wrong with soccer it's hard to know where to start, but the fact that the game had to dragged kicking & screaming into the 21st C is certainly one of them. My god how long did they resist even having goal-line cameras/reviews ?
    The corruption, the BS excuses, the fetish with skill over everything else (the "beautiful game crap) -- god give me strength....

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Joe Joe

    One theory I’ve heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) with one referee and two linesmen. Only top level teams can afford video replay. I think all the big money flowing into top level soccer has forced the authorities to add video replay to make sure the important calls are made correctly

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Joe Joe

    "One theory I’ve heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) "
    You are right. However, I always had the feeling it was a (poor) excuse. Why should pee-wee level & International soccer mirror each other (does pee-wee level really need goal mouth cameras) ?
    The better method is to start at the top & then with that experience work backwards, down the grades of the game.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  156. @Joe Joe
    @animalogic

    One theory I've heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) with one referee and two linesmen. Only top level teams can afford video replay. I think all the big money flowing into top level soccer has forced the authorities to add video replay to make sure the important calls are made correctly

    Replies: @animalogic

    “One theory I’ve heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) ”
    You are right. However, I always had the feeling it was a (poor) excuse. Why should pee-wee level & International soccer mirror each other (does pee-wee level really need goal mouth cameras) ?
    The better method is to start at the top & then with that experience work backwards, down the grades of the game.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @animalogic

    Americans are always thinking up ways to make soccer more like the NFL.

    But a whole lot of of people outside America seem to like soccer just the way it is.

    Replies: @animalogic

  157. @animalogic
    @Joe Joe

    "One theory I’ve heard as to why soccer was so slow to add video review of calls was that they wanted the game to be officiated basically the same no matter what level(pee wee, high school, college, low level professional and top level professional) "
    You are right. However, I always had the feeling it was a (poor) excuse. Why should pee-wee level & International soccer mirror each other (does pee-wee level really need goal mouth cameras) ?
    The better method is to start at the top & then with that experience work backwards, down the grades of the game.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Americans are always thinking up ways to make soccer more like the NFL.

    But a whole lot of of people outside America seem to like soccer just the way it is.

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Steve Sailer

    "But a whole lot of of people outside America seem to like soccer just the way it is."
    Yes.... From a spectators' perspective, I know both games & NFL is far-far superior.
    Where soccer has an advantage is that it's a very simple game. Get a few kids together, a ball, & you have a game. And that kind of childhood experience carries forward into adulthood & spectator preference.
    The NFL game is not quite as simple (is it a "rich man's game" ?).
    (another well known factor -- lot of parents prefer soccer b/c (compared to the US game) it's not so "rough" for their precious kids)

  158. @Steve Sailer
    @animalogic

    Americans are always thinking up ways to make soccer more like the NFL.

    But a whole lot of of people outside America seem to like soccer just the way it is.

    Replies: @animalogic

    “But a whole lot of of people outside America seem to like soccer just the way it is.”
    Yes…. From a spectators’ perspective, I know both games & NFL is far-far superior.
    Where soccer has an advantage is that it’s a very simple game. Get a few kids together, a ball, & you have a game. And that kind of childhood experience carries forward into adulthood & spectator preference.
    The NFL game is not quite as simple (is it a “rich man’s game” ?).
    (another well known factor — lot of parents prefer soccer b/c (compared to the US game) it’s not so “rough” for their precious kids)

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