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From an op-ed in the New York Times:

Whatever Happened to German America?
By ERIK KIRSCHBAUM SEPT. 23, 2015

Berlin — WHAT is America’s largest national ethnic group? If you said English, Italian or Mexican, you’re wrong. Today some 46 million Americans can claim German ancestry. The difference is, very few of them do.

1913 Goethe Memorial, Chicago

By the way, some of these Census Bureau ancestry figures, where respondents are asked to identify with a single European nationality, rise and fall due to fashion. Choosing “German” has been rising and “English” has been falling, but I doubt if the underlying genetics are changing very fast. A term like “Old Stock American” would probably be more useful in describing all those Smiths and Millers, Earnhardts and Heinleins of predominantly mixed Northwest European ancestry. But “old stock” is out of fashion — the PM of Canada recently got in trouble for referring to “old stock Canadians.”

Indeed, aside from Oktoberfest, German culture has largely disappeared from the American landscape. What happened?

At the turn of the last century, Germans were the predominant ethnic group in the United States — some eight million people, out of a population of 76 million. New York City had one of the world’s largest German-speaking populations, trailing only Berlin and Vienna, with about a quarter of its 3.4 million people conversing auf Deutsch.

“Trump” is one of the remaining New York City German names.

Entire communities, spreading from northern Wisconsin to rural Texas, consisted almost exclusively of German immigrants and their children.

As they spread through the country, they founded church denominations, singing societies, even whole industries — pre-Prohibition brewing was dominated by Germans, whose names live on in brands like Pabst, Busch and Miller. Their numbers shaped the media — there were 488 German-language daily and weekly newspapers around 1900 keeping the language and culture alive — and politics: Midwestern German-Americans were a backbone of the early Republican Party.

The enormous number of German-Americans was also a factor in keeping the United States out of World War I for so long — activists lobbied against intervening on the Allies’ side, while politicians worried about losing a sizable voting bloc.

It’s also that German-Americans tended to be less militaristic. The U.S. got a large proportion of Germans in Amish or Quaker-like quietist sects, liberal 1848ers, and other Nice Germans, leaving Germany with a higher proportion of Not Nice Germans.

Partly for that reason, when the United States did enter the war, German-Americans came under intense, and often violent, scrutiny, especially after the revelation of an ill-conceived German plan for Mexico to invade the United States.

There had long been doubts about the loyalty of German-Americans, especially in the myriad pockets of the Midwest where they were particularly dominant. Many had hoped to stave off assimilation by clinging to their language and dual loyalties — but that commitment to their culture suddenly became a vulnerability.

In what is a largely forgotten chapter of American history, during the roughly 18 months of American involvement in the war, people with German roots were falsely accused of being spies or saboteurs; hundreds were interned or convicted of sedition on trumped-up charges, or for offenses as trivial as making critical comments about the war. More than 30 were killed by vigilantes and anti-German mobs; hundreds of others were beaten or tarred and feathered.

Even the German music of Beethoven and Brahms, which had been assumed to be immune to the hysteria, came under attack. …

Not surprisingly, those who could hid their Germanic roots; some switched their names; many others canceled their subscriptions to German newspapers, which virtually disappeared. Whatever vestige of German America remained after the 1910s was wiped out by similar pressures during World War II, not to mention the shame that came with German identity after it.

Erik Kirschbaum is the author of “Burning Beethoven: The Eradication of German Culture in the United States During World War I.”

I’d add that German v. Anglo cultural struggle didn’t go wholly underground after WWI, since America’s dominant man of letters during the 1920s, H.L. Mencken, was extremely German-American. He denounced the Wilson Administration’s anti-German-American policies with endless invention.

After the stock market crashed in 1929 and artists and writers subsequently moved to the Left, history got retconned to imply that it was always that way. Typically, however, cultural intellectuals tended to be on the right, especially in the 1920s, and/or the animating disputes of the time don’t map well to 1930s Left-Right typologies.

The big cultural struggle in the 1920s was bohemians versus small town Protestant ministers / Protestant women. The wits of the era saw Prohibition and Feminism as a two-headed monster. The New Yorker magazine was founded in 1925 to be “not edited for the old lady in Dubuque.” Wilfrid Sheed wrote of the early New Yorker,

Thurber’s world cannot remotely be understood without understanding Prohibition, or the locker-room version of it: a plot brewed up by women and Protestant ministers while our soldiers were overseas, in order to end America’s men-only culture and bring the boys all the way home, not just as far as the nearest saloon.

The crushing of German-American pride in 1917 made possible both Prohibition and Suffragism, since the big German-American brewers were the main funders of the resistance to letting women vote, since everybody assumed that votes for women meant Prohibition.

Much of 1920s culture was a reaction to the triumph of Progressive WASPism during the second Wilson Administration.

Although German-Americans made up a high proportion of small town (and big city) Americans in the 1920s, German culture was seen in the 1920s by bohemians as less puritanical and fanatical than American Protestantism. Germans seemed to have worked out a healthy, reasonable relationship with alcohol, while British-Americans tended to swing between alcoholism and Prohibitionism.

Moreover, German-Americans could be Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish, or some combination (which appealed to people tired of sectarianism.

And German-Americans, who were well-educated on average, often had more connection to the glamorous artistic (e.g., Wagner) and intellectual currents (e.g., Nietzsche) of Europe.

For example, many of the culture wars of the 1920s in America were fought over the influence of Friedrich Nietzsche (the subject of Mencken’s first book), especially the Leopold and Loeb trial of 1924 and the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925, which Mencken used to permanently tar the reputation of the left-of-center champion of small town values, William Jennings Bryan.

The superstar defense attorney in both media circuses was Clarence Darrow. He first pulled off the amazing feat of saving Leopold and Loeb’s necks by constructing a Nietzschean defense by blaming their heinous murder of a boy on Nietzsche: Leopold had no free will because he was under the influence of Nietzsche’s philosophy.

Hey, it worked.

The Nietzsche connection helped lure Bryan into being guest prosecutor in the ACLU’s set-piece Scopes Monkey Trial. Bryan, a pacifist, had resigned as Wilson’s Secretary of State in 1915 on the (correct) grounds that Wilson’s policies would eventually entangle America into war with Germany. But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them. In the wake of Darrow’s vastly publicized triumph in the Leopold and Loeb trial, Bryan saw the Monkey Trial as a chance to take a stand again Nietzscheanism.

 
• Category: History • Tags: Germans 
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  1. If you want to get confused while trying to map early 20th century politics and culture war onto today’s template, study Darrow vs Bryan.

    • Agree: Seminumerical
  2. Reminds me of a Grandpa Simpson tale

    • Agree: AndrewR
  3. This is one of those iSteve posts that gives me the intellectual equivalent of warm fuzzies, like Glenn Beck cracking open a popular history for the first time.

  4. Marty [AKA "coot veal or cot deal"] says:

    For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder’s. For decades I went there. just for the sauerbraten. Last year they closed for a few months to remodel. When they reopned – still called Schroeder’s but sauerbraten no longer on the menu.

    • Disagree: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Marty

    The town I grew up in had a German family owned soda shop: Baumgart's. They sold to some Chinese immigrants 30-something years ago, but before they did, they taught the Chinese to make ice cream. Still great ice cream there, but the cuisine is mostly slightly fancy Chinese.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @stillCARealist
    @Marty

    I've eaten at that restaurant. Probably 20 years ago now. There were bizarre paintings on the walls of drunks sneering at the police. Like it was supposed to be some bad boys club to get drunk in without the women knowing anything. The food was yummy and fattening.

    Why some things just stick in the head, I don't know.

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Marty

    "For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder’s."

    I ate there in probably 2004, in order to see a presentation by dissident historian David Irving. Cool place; good food.

  5. iSteveFan says:

    It is interesting to contrast the treatment of German-Americans after US entry into WW1 with the treatment of Mohammedans after 9-11. It is also interesting to see that German-Americans responded to this treatment by assimilating even further into American culture while Muslims responded to their post 9-11 treatment by doubling down on their uniqueness.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @iSteveFan

    Well on the one hand, Germans were more similar in both culture and ethnicity so it was easier for them to assimilate.

    Of course that was also well before the Flight From White that began in the late 20th century and which Steve has been documenting.

    , @Anonymous
    @iSteveFan

    It's very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It's much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

    Replies: @iSteveFan, @Anonymous

    , @JohnnyGeo
    @iSteveFan

    Is that true of the average Muslim American, as opposed to, say, clock-boy's father? How would we know?

    , @Druid
    @iSteveFan

    First off, Mohammedans is wrong description. Nobody worships Mohammed. It is Islam. Second, it was easier for the Germans to assimilate due to their European heritage and Christian faith. Muslims are ethnically different. For some, assimilation seems to mean getting rid of Islam, which will not happen. Muslims are more than glad to abide by the norms and believe in their faith - separation of church and state.

  6. We still have pockets where German-American identity is strong. Columbus, Ohio has a pretty obvious German bent (obsession with beer, well-known German neighborhoods and restaurants, massive Oktoberfest and Christmas celebrations, half of everyone is surnamed Miller).

    I even went to high school there with the descendants of a certain infamous German…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @MC

    Jack Nicklaus?

    Replies: @MC

    , @SFG
    @MC

    There's an infamous Austrian (popular around here) who has relatives on Long Island, but Columbus?

    Replies: @2Mintzin1, @MC

    , @Cincinnatus
    @MC

    Yes, Cincinnati is another example. The 18th Century influx of German immigrants enriched the growing cities of the time, forming the German Triangle - Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and St Louis. Not a coincidence they became the centers of American brewing. Pre-WWI, it had 3 German language daily newspapers, and 7,000 pubs - almost one per city block. Nowadays, 50% of the population claims German heritage.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  7. I am German-American on my father’s side and British-American on my mother’s side. I remember when I was a boy that my father, uncles and aunts sometimes talked of the bad days during WW I when German -Americans were under attack. But my relatives on my fathers side seemed to be very well assimilated and I never noticed any bitterness on their part. Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    @Jim


    Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.
     
    yea, when he wasn't running death camps for German teenage boys after war II was over, starving them to death en mass.

    "God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)


    "...it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater."
     
    He's also known for leaving American POWs behind after the Korean war was abandoned

    do some research
    , @Rurik
    @Jim

    I'm reposting this because I see it listed under my posts but never made it to the thread..

    anyways ~

    •Rurik
    September 28, 2015 at 12:34 pm GMT • 100 Words
    @Jim


    Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

     

    yea, when he wasn’t running death camps for German teenage boys after war II was over, starving them to death en mass.

    “God, I hate the Germans…” (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)


    “…it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater.”



    http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html


    He’s also known for leaving American POWs behind after the Korean war was abandoned

    do some research
  8. Thank you, Steve. The evisceration of German-American culture–with its Bunds and Vereins and its dance halls and its churches and its biergartens–is one of my favorite secret histories.

    Oh, and where are my reparations? Since I’m only about 50% Deutsch, I’d be happy with a one-half share.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Percy Gryce

    Go cry into your excellently-crafted stein of Reinheitsgebot-compliant beer.

    , @Johann
    @Percy Gryce

    The Past is an interesting country to revisit. Not only were German Americans harassed during the two huge wars concocted by the American Progressives; my father was an immigrant from Northern Ireland and has as a boy witnessed the brutality of the British military against the Irish Catholics. During the Second War he was working in a factory in Philadelphia; he began to discuss the war with his fellow worker who was German and my father agreed with him that the English were bastards. A few days later an FBI agent was covering the working class neighborhood asking about his loyalties. A very fine German gentleman who was an immigrant and who was a friend of my father told me that before the Second War he had collected a bunch of German magazines which were the first to use color photography. As soon as Roosevelt and his Progressive cabal got the US into the war; he took his magazines to the basement fire heater and burned them all because his fear of the American Gestapo (FBI)

  9. Wow, think of a world in which it was assumed by a government that its rank and file soldiers could read Nietzsche. Gives an idea of how far we’ve fallen.

    • Agree: Epaminondas
    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @ricpic

    Steve may have other sources but where I've encountered this claim is in American "propaganda" generally claiming that specifically educated German soldiers carried four books into battle with them the Bible, Homer, Nietzsche extracts and something else. So I wouldn't read to much into it. Extracts from Nietzsche especially the kind of aphroisms that would have been collected in a tract by the German war office are no more difficult to read than the Book of Romans-which a ton of of US soldiers read these days whole deployed. Most probably we aren't talking about the dead tight-rope walker scene or the parts about how Socratic irony killed drama.

  10. @MC
    We still have pockets where German-American identity is strong. Columbus, Ohio has a pretty obvious German bent (obsession with beer, well-known German neighborhoods and restaurants, massive Oktoberfest and Christmas celebrations, half of everyone is surnamed Miller).

    I even went to high school there with the descendants of a certain infamous German...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Cincinnatus

    Jack Nicklaus?

    • Replies: @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    Haha, no, much more infamous than the Bear, but there's another example.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  11. @Steve Sailer
    @MC

    Jack Nicklaus?

    Replies: @MC

    Haha, no, much more infamous than the Bear, but there’s another example.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @MC

    George Steinbrenner?

    Replies: @MC

  12. “respondents are asked to identify with a single European nationality”: for what purpose is this half-arsed question asked?

    • Replies: @GW
    @dearieme

    Just shows you how clueless demographers are. Apparently to them we all got off the boat in the 60s and can trace all our ancestry to one country. Frankly with the cheap availablity of home genetic testing the census questions asking about ethnicity are worthless.

    "Old stock American" is a good username for anyone without an established presence in the comment section.

    Replies: @Olorin

  13. Darrow vs Bryan, of course, maps to a more well-known intra-WASP ethnic feud. Bryan was part Scots-Irish, Darrow had his roots in New England.

  14. @Marty
    For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder's. For decades I went there. just for the sauerbraten. Last year they closed for a few months to remodel. When they reopned - still called Schroeder's but sauerbraten no longer on the menu.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @stillCARealist, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    The town I grew up in had a German family owned soda shop: Baumgart’s. They sold to some Chinese immigrants 30-something years ago, but before they did, they taught the Chinese to make ice cream. Still great ice cream there, but the cuisine is mostly slightly fancy Chinese.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Dave Pinsen

    You speak of baumgarts in bergen county?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  15. Theodore Dreiser was arguably the most important American novelist of the early 20th century, and his somewhat strained relationship with English sentence structure might’ve come from his education in German-language schools.

    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish. I’m not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers. (I suppose they were too busy laying the foundations of our superpowerdom, just like their kinfolk back in the homeland. American Century? More like the German Century.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @timothy

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    Replies: @timothy, @Blobby5, @Zach, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Sam Haysom
    @timothy

    Edison, Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Bell, Bessemer, Morse, Rockefeller. Granted those aren't all 20th century figures but that's a pretty comprehensive list of the creators of 20th century industry up to the 1940s. Where are the Germans? German self-congratulation really is so tiresome. Germany dominated Europe for the same reason that the US in turn through Germany around its population size. In a sense Germay and the US are similar stories- no other countries better married population size advantages to competency and innovation. For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity. The idea that the dearth of noteworthy Germans until Dreiser derived from the fact that Germans where too busy creating things simply isn't supported by facts.

    Replies: @SFG, @Hippopotamusdrome

    , @IBC
    @timothy


    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish.
     
    Not quite fiction, but the cartoonist Thomas Nast was born in Germany. He was responsible for many (dare I say it?) iconic images in American culture such as Uncle Sam, the Democratic donkey, the Republican elephant, and of course, Santa Claus. He also penned many, very politically incorrect drawings of drunken Irishmen, predatory priests and the like, so his current place in the cartoon canon is somewhat clouded. (Although he also drew sympathetic depictions of Chinese people, American Indians, and Black Americans).

    Ub Iwerks, who helped create Mickey Mouse, and Rudolph Dirks, who created the long-running comic strip The Katzenjammer Kids, were also of German background.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @timothy

    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish. I’m not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers.

    Not really. I would argue that German culture in general has been a pretty mediocre producer of fiction compared to the English, French or Russian traditions. Germans are good at poetry and philosophy. Much of the best fiction in German was produced by Austrian Jews (Kafka, Roth). Mann, Hesse, Grass and co. are good, but look pretty shaky next to say Austen, Dickens, Waugh, Joyce, Forster, Hardy, etc.

  16. There are far more Americans of Anglo stock than German. It’s just that most of their ancestors have been in this country for so long they forget where they came from.

    https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/some-visualizations-of-ancestry-coms-genetic-data/

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0353s

    The maps of British ancestry and interest in genealogy are quite correlated.

  17. @dearieme
    "respondents are asked to identify with a single European nationality": for what purpose is this half-arsed question asked?

    Replies: @GW

    Just shows you how clueless demographers are. Apparently to them we all got off the boat in the 60s and can trace all our ancestry to one country. Frankly with the cheap availablity of home genetic testing the census questions asking about ethnicity are worthless.

    “Old stock American” is a good username for anyone without an established presence in the comment section.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @GW

    Doesn't matter.

    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don't remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.

    The sense of super deep memory is very much Nordic (think of the Icelanders) and also Germanic. Anglo-Saxon, not sure how much. In my family the Nordics, Germanics, and Finns would tell stories going back 30,000 years. We used to joke about it. But the English couldn't care less about all that. They couldn't even name their great-grandparents, and seemed to be proud to forget their ancestors.

    This is why I ended up marrying later in life. It was very hard to find a white girl with a sense of her people akin to my own. She said the same thing. Our daughters will be telling the same old Pleistocene jokes to their kids that have been passed down for 10,000 years (along with their V haplogroup mtDNA).

    Did you hear the one about Deaf Jussi who stumbled onto the cave of Grandfather Honeyfang?

    Neither did he.

    Yeah, apparently they were politically incorrect people too.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @The most deplorable one

  18. @timothy
    Theodore Dreiser was arguably the most important American novelist of the early 20th century, and his somewhat strained relationship with English sentence structure might've come from his education in German-language schools.

    Here's a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn't English or Scotch-Irish. I'm not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers. (I suppose they were too busy laying the foundations of our superpowerdom, just like their kinfolk back in the homeland. American Century? More like the German Century.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @IBC, @Peter Akuleyev

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    • Replies: @timothy
    @Steve Sailer

    Drieser to Mencken, 1910: "If the outline of Mr. Nietzsche's philosophy in the introduction [to Mencken's translation] is correct, he and myself are hale fellows well met." This was coming from a socialist.

    Drieser could see something of value in Nietzsche, just as Mencken could overlook Dreiser's politics, because they were uniting in a Popular Front against Babbittry, against the small-town Protestant booboisie.

    , @Blobby5
    @Steve Sailer

    He loved his work but was aghast at his mercurial and alcoholic ways. I think they were estranged at the end.

    , @Zach
    @Steve Sailer

    Mencken disowned Dreiser because of the latter's favorable book on the Soviets. In his diaries, Mencken claimed Dreiser was taken for a ride by the Soviets and noted that Dreiser and Dorothy Thompson accused each other of plagiarism because they had been led around the USSR by the same Soviet officials, given the same press releases, etc, and thus both wrote the same book. It never occurred to either writer that the Soviets had fooled them, Mencken wrote.

    BTW, Mencken's first book was actually about GB Shaw.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.
     
    However, it was Dreiser's brother Paul that Hollywood felt worthy of a biopic, starring Victor Mature.
  19. @Dave Pinsen
    @Marty

    The town I grew up in had a German family owned soda shop: Baumgart's. They sold to some Chinese immigrants 30-something years ago, but before they did, they taught the Chinese to make ice cream. Still great ice cream there, but the cuisine is mostly slightly fancy Chinese.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    You speak of baumgarts in bergen county?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymous

    The original location in Englewood, yes.

  20. James Cox Democrat candidate for President 1920.

    In 1919 (shortly after WWI ended), in support of the Ake law banning German language instruction in public schools, Governor Cox claimed teaching German was “a distinct menace to Americanism, and part of a plot formed by the German government to make the school children loyal to it.”[7]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Cox

  21. The same anti-German sentiment returned during WWII. A thousand or so German Americans were even interned. A Lutheran from rural Nebraska I know recalls several instances of crosses being burned in front of his local Lutheran congregation during the early 40s.

    The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod—what was at the time the largest Lutheran group in America—still performed services in German up until the late 1930s in many congregations. By the 1950s, all LCMS churches had switched to English only.

  22. Paul Gottfried brings up President Wilson’s Anglophile and his reaching out to the Brits by favoring the Anglos in the US and shunning the Germans. Wilson, the Anglo-Saxon, admired Britain and was not enamored of the young upstart on the continent. Others might say it all revolved around the Balfour Declaration but at any rate the Anglos ruled the day in 1917 and the US changed history by coming into WW1 on the side of the Anglos. The Germans were winning the war but we tipped the scales and the result? The Versailles Lie, the Germans were starved into signing the guilt clause(the armistice was six months before the Treaty of Versailles) by the allies, and then….then Hitler came along to lead the pissed off Germans down the road to Ragnarok in WW2.
    I also think one of the unmentioned causes the US population went with the Brits is the Germans were as bad at public relations as the Scotch-Irish, who sing songs like,”You don’t like us? We don’t care.” That is not a way to sway US public opinion.
    And during the pivotal 1916-17 period the Germans naively thought truth would carry the day.
    It didn’t, and here we are living Hitler’s revenge, slowly stewing like a frog(not the French)in our home-made sea of guilt.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @conatus

    And encouraging Mexico to conquer Texas didn't help Berlin's PR offensive.

    Replies: @byrresheim

    , @Sam Haysom
    @conatus

    What truth? I honestly don't understand in the least claims that Germany was somehow handed a raw deal because the Entente had the audacity to point out that Germany invaded a neutral country for strategic advantage.

    , @Whiskey
    @conatus

    Germany already lost with the failure of the Ludendirf Offensive. The professiinal Bri army was wiped out in Belgium in 1914 and it took until late 1917 for it to reform. By June 1918 German soldiers were in rags, starving, with half their units casaulties.

  23. @Marty
    For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder's. For decades I went there. just for the sauerbraten. Last year they closed for a few months to remodel. When they reopned - still called Schroeder's but sauerbraten no longer on the menu.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @stillCARealist, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I’ve eaten at that restaurant. Probably 20 years ago now. There were bizarre paintings on the walls of drunks sneering at the police. Like it was supposed to be some bad boys club to get drunk in without the women knowing anything. The food was yummy and fattening.

    Why some things just stick in the head, I don’t know.

  24. @Steve Sailer
    @timothy

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    Replies: @timothy, @Blobby5, @Zach, @Reg Cæsar

    Drieser to Mencken, 1910: “If the outline of Mr. Nietzsche’s philosophy in the introduction [to Mencken’s translation] is correct, he and myself are hale fellows well met.” This was coming from a socialist.

    Drieser could see something of value in Nietzsche, just as Mencken could overlook Dreiser’s politics, because they were uniting in a Popular Front against Babbittry, against the small-town Protestant booboisie.

  25. I’m not German but I wanted to take German in High school instead of Spanish, French, or Latin. It had been offered prior to 1917. It was offered again in 1965, the year after I graduated.

  26. @conatus
    Paul Gottfried brings up President Wilson's Anglophile and his reaching out to the Brits by favoring the Anglos in the US and shunning the Germans. Wilson, the Anglo-Saxon, admired Britain and was not enamored of the young upstart on the continent. Others might say it all revolved around the Balfour Declaration but at any rate the Anglos ruled the day in 1917 and the US changed history by coming into WW1 on the side of the Anglos. The Germans were winning the war but we tipped the scales and the result? The Versailles Lie, the Germans were starved into signing the guilt clause(the armistice was six months before the Treaty of Versailles) by the allies, and then....then Hitler came along to lead the pissed off Germans down the road to Ragnarok in WW2.
    I also think one of the unmentioned causes the US population went with the Brits is the Germans were as bad at public relations as the Scotch-Irish, who sing songs like,"You don't like us? We don't care." That is not a way to sway US public opinion.
    And during the pivotal 1916-17 period the Germans naively thought truth would carry the day.
    It didn't, and here we are living Hitler's revenge, slowly stewing like a frog(not the French)in our home-made sea of guilt.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @Whiskey

    And encouraging Mexico to conquer Texas didn’t help Berlin’s PR offensive.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
    @Steve Sailer

    Are you certain that story is true?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  27. @Steve Sailer
    @timothy

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    Replies: @timothy, @Blobby5, @Zach, @Reg Cæsar

    He loved his work but was aghast at his mercurial and alcoholic ways. I think they were estranged at the end.

  28. It’s also that German-Americans tended to be less militaristic.

    Right, like John Pershing, Chester Nimitz, Dwight Eisenhower …. just pointing it out. 😉

    I have numerous German ancestors going back to the 17th Century. The thing is that Germans always marry out, as do the Irish and Scots Irish; and they frequently marry each other. If there were indeed 8 MM Germans out of 76 MM 115 years ago, then it’s very credible that many Americans identify with German as their sole ethnicity on the census. I have in the past; and the reason for that is because my German ancestors were harassed for being German in 1917, and my non-German ancestors were harassed for defending the rights of German Americans. It was an ugly time. HOWEVER, it can also be overplayed, and I suspect that Mr. Kirschbaum is doing just that. But I should also be honest and say that, when one is as mixed as I am (and most Americans with German ancestors) “American” seems to be the only legitimate self-descriptor.

    I studied German and made sure my children studied German simply because it is a very important language in 19th and 20th Century scholarship. But of course a serious student should study more than just one foreign language.

    German Americans have largely assimilated but they have left their imprint in our culture (I would argue) in many ways. In fact, one way that tends not to be noticed is in our educational system, not only kindergarten (obvious) but even university culture, largely developed in the 19th Century, was heavily based on German models and the study of any of the social sciences and/or the humanities are also heavily indebted (I seem to recall that one of the complaints of “The Closing of the American Mind” involved such debt.)

    In a word, I think Mr Kirschbaum’s efforts might be a bit wrongheaded; the US has significant German roots (and other national roots), those should be recognized and celebrated, but the World Wars are a long time ago now. No need to go on and on about it. And I myself wouldn’t want to forsake my other ethno-cultural roots for the sake of some ersatz sense of unity with some Verein.

    • Replies: @Marina
    @SPMoore8

    We have significant German ancestry on my mother's side, but we all just call ourselves "American." Nobody in our family has immigrated in 150 years; we're just Northern European mutts. We are American and nothing else, for better or worse.

    , @Zach
    @SPMoore8

    Eisenhower came from a family of pacifists--his mother broke down when he went off to West Point. German immigrants were also strong opponents of slavery.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  29. This is one of Steve’s best posts. The eclipse, or suppression, of German-American culture during World War I is one of the great untold stories of American history.

    Italian-Americans went through something similar during World War II. Everyone knows about the Japanese-Americans, but Italian-Americans were also similarly targeted.

  30. Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War. Someone brought up Wilson and he is a good example. Wilson was a borderland Scots-Irish, but aped the style of the old Yankees. In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the ’92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms.

    German culture has largely been over run by Yankee culture on the one hand and the red neck hillbilly culture on the other. Pennsylvania and Ohio are good examples. You have the WASPy pockets that exert enormous influence, usually by harnessing the black vote. Everywhere else is downscale white.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the ’92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms."

    The soliciting of under-the-desk blow-jobs is a Yankee cultural norm? Who knew.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @The Z Blog


    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War.
     
    Horse manure.

    With whippedcream.

    And a cherry on top.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  31. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    If America is a ‘nation of immigrants’, are the newly arrived more American than settled Americans with roots in American history and soil?

    Same goes for Europe. If new Europe defines itself by immigration, then newly arrived ‘Syrrians’ are more European than ‘old staid boring Europeans’.

    PS. US is turning into a nation of immediate-grants.

  32. The federal government and academics can’t really track ethnic groups other than race. Well, they can’t really track race either. They are just coming to grips with the “mixed race” concept, now that there is a mixed-race president, and again this is something that other countries seem to have no problem with. They also invent entire fake races, eg “Hispanics” and whatever “Asian and Pacific Islander”. Its probably a good thing that their efforts to track ethnic groups are so weak and they don’t even bother trying with religion.

    But I’ve always thought the way to do this would be not to ask what YOU identified with, but what your grandparents identified as. Its easier for you to change your identity compared to what is fashionable at the time than your grandparents, particularly if they are dead. I would almost say you would have to identify where your grandparents are born, but the problem there is people like me, whose grandparents were born in one country, but identified with another.

    One surveys, many people respond that they identify as “American”. I suspect that these people are mostly or almost entirely of English or German ancestry. But there should be a category basically of “no longer relate to ancestor’s country of origin.”

  33. @GW
    @dearieme

    Just shows you how clueless demographers are. Apparently to them we all got off the boat in the 60s and can trace all our ancestry to one country. Frankly with the cheap availablity of home genetic testing the census questions asking about ethnicity are worthless.

    "Old stock American" is a good username for anyone without an established presence in the comment section.

    Replies: @Olorin

    Doesn’t matter.

    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don’t remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.

    The sense of super deep memory is very much Nordic (think of the Icelanders) and also Germanic. Anglo-Saxon, not sure how much. In my family the Nordics, Germanics, and Finns would tell stories going back 30,000 years. We used to joke about it. But the English couldn’t care less about all that. They couldn’t even name their great-grandparents, and seemed to be proud to forget their ancestors.

    This is why I ended up marrying later in life. It was very hard to find a white girl with a sense of her people akin to my own. She said the same thing. Our daughters will be telling the same old Pleistocene jokes to their kids that have been passed down for 10,000 years (along with their V haplogroup mtDNA).

    Did you hear the one about Deaf Jussi who stumbled onto the cave of Grandfather Honeyfang?

    Neither did he.

    Yeah, apparently they were politically incorrect people too.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @Olorin

    Yes think of the Icelanders. Has any other remote civilization been more eager to efface their connection to the past? You'd be far more likely to find a Frenchman that can quote the song of Roland than an Icelander that can quote Egil's Saga. Just because other cultures have had cultural works of suficient power to compete with their old epics (unlike Iceland) doesn't mean that Icelanders are more in touch with their roots. Moreover, Germans don't even like to think about German history beyond the Adenhauer years. The fact that you tell jokes about your chimerical Pleistocene ancestors (who were likely my ancestors too and the ancestors of quite a few Anglo-Saxons) when you get right down to doesn't actually signify a connection with them. In fact it kind of belies your entire first point. Your entire connection to Uncle Honeyfang is genetic. It has no cultural component. They transmitted nothing to us but their genes.

    , @The most deplorable one
    @Olorin


    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don’t remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.
     
    Which type of 'culture' are you talking about? Most 'culture' changes too quickly to have such a selective effect.

    Read up on truncation selection. Greg Cochran has some stuff on it. If I recall, he estimates that it takes something of the order of 30 generations to change one attribute (violence-proneness) by removing the most violent one or two percent each year.

    The sorts of cultural things that can have an effect on the gene pool are long lived cultural substrates, like religion.

    The Soviets tried for three generations to eliminate Orthodox Christianity in Russia and it has made a comeback after the break up of the USSR, and I suspect that that is because Orthodox Christianity has selected for people to be more amenable to Orthodox Christianity over the approximately 1,000 years that it has been a force in Russia and surrounds.

    Even language changes too quickly so the things that language selects for are likely to be:

    1. The physical attributes necessary for language production, including breathing control and brain structures

    2. The ability to absorb the language being spoken around you at birth.

    Even claims that certain groups are adapted to handling tonal languages seem unlikely, since there is strong evidence that Chinese languages, for example, were non tonal (in their current sense) about two thousand years ago.

    Replies: @athEIst

  34. German was the language of science back then too.

  35. Some of us are trying – we have a German American Heritage Center:
    http://gahc.org/

    and we have a large bronze statue of Germania, installed just a few years ago:
    http://www.gahc.org/LadyGermania.htm

    we no longer have a local daily German language newspaper, though. And my iowa relatives stopped speaking German during the late 1930’s for some reason.

  36. “Trump” was not actually a German name:

    “[Fred] Trump’s father Friedrich Drumpf immigrated to New York City in 1885 and worked as a barber for six years, becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1892 […] under the Anglicized name Frederick Trump after moving to Seattle, Washington in 1891. The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush.” [per Wikipedia.org]

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @D. K.

    "The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush.”

    So, Donald Trump is descended from an Al Swearengen-type, who used to also get into Klan-inspired brawls with the NYPD?!?

    Forget the stupid elections - WE NEED TO MAKE THIS MAN OUR PRESIDENT IMMEDIATELY!!!

    Replies: @SFG

    , @sure thing
    @D. K.

    "Drumpf"??!!?

    Jeez. No wonder he changed it. Even if Trump isn't much better..

    But are you sure it's German?

    Sounds Dutch to me.

    Replies: @D. K.

  37. Central Texas.

    Driving west on I-10 from Houston, you encounter the most remarkable transition in terrain and culture, actually the moment you cross the county line into Colorado County, maybe 10 miles east of Columbus. That is where the “west” begins and the big sky vistas of the west begin where you can see for miles and miles. And the German influence in Texas has its boundary.

    The people of Central Texas look a little down on the people nearer the coast as “Bayou Trash. Within the space of even a few hundred feet, everything changes. The fields are better maintained, the roads are better, the fences are even, maintained, orderly, there are no billboards, the yards and lots that you can see from the freeway are straight and organized. And it remains that way for for 200 by 200 mile square where Columbus is the SE corner.

    The hardest jobs I ever had were in Austin. As a teen, my bosses would work the shit out of you, and your peers expected you to keep up. That countryside in its native form is rugged. Mesquite laughs at an ax. And they cleared huge acreage of it, in some of the hottest, most humid weather in the world. I’ve been near the equator and Texas is hotter, that Texas for sure. Michener wrote in his novel Texas that there were 11,000 Mexicans in the state in 1900. And that land was cleared by those Germans and Bohemians that came as part of the land grant Santa Ana gave to Stephen F Austin. The Bergdahl, Woernke, and Schmidt girls married the Johnsons, Turners, Coles over time and those names are fading from Texas. But they are still there in the blood of Texans.

    Maybe those peaceful people went to Pennsylvania where the Deutsche became to Pennsylvania Dutch, but some other bunch came to Central Texas ’cause still even today, You Don’t Mess With Texas.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    @Mark Minter

    Germany wasn't one country until after a lot of the people who came here from there were born. Even if it was, the contrast between different groups of Germans was huge, probably more so than groups of English. So that would make perfect sense.

    My company deals with a company in the San Antonio area and I deal with these people fairly regularly. I have people calling me from Boerne, New Braunfels (yeah, it's "new" with a W), and Kerrville and some of those people are definite hardasses. I never had that with the Cincinnati Germans or the St. Louis Germans.

    Or maybe the heat drives them nutty.

    , @Anonymous
    @Mark Minter

    Exactly! Lots and lots of Germans and Poles. Still very proud of their heritage and you can find lots of good, dark beer.

  38. people with German roots were falsely accused of being spies or saboteurs; hundreds were interned or convicted of sedition

    Wow. German-Americans need their own Ta-Nehisi Coates to explain how those long-ago offenses explain today’s German-American dysfunction.

    They can start by defining themselves as non-white.

    • Replies: @Druid
    @International Jew

    The poor calling the cattle black, international Jew?

  39. @ricpic
    Wow, think of a world in which it was assumed by a government that its rank and file soldiers could read Nietzsche. Gives an idea of how far we've fallen.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom

    Steve may have other sources but where I’ve encountered this claim is in American “propaganda” generally claiming that specifically educated German soldiers carried four books into battle with them the Bible, Homer, Nietzsche extracts and something else. So I wouldn’t read to much into it. Extracts from Nietzsche especially the kind of aphroisms that would have been collected in a tract by the German war office are no more difficult to read than the Book of Romans-which a ton of of US soldiers read these days whole deployed. Most probably we aren’t talking about the dead tight-rope walker scene or the parts about how Socratic irony killed drama.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  40. @conatus
    Paul Gottfried brings up President Wilson's Anglophile and his reaching out to the Brits by favoring the Anglos in the US and shunning the Germans. Wilson, the Anglo-Saxon, admired Britain and was not enamored of the young upstart on the continent. Others might say it all revolved around the Balfour Declaration but at any rate the Anglos ruled the day in 1917 and the US changed history by coming into WW1 on the side of the Anglos. The Germans were winning the war but we tipped the scales and the result? The Versailles Lie, the Germans were starved into signing the guilt clause(the armistice was six months before the Treaty of Versailles) by the allies, and then....then Hitler came along to lead the pissed off Germans down the road to Ragnarok in WW2.
    I also think one of the unmentioned causes the US population went with the Brits is the Germans were as bad at public relations as the Scotch-Irish, who sing songs like,"You don't like us? We don't care." That is not a way to sway US public opinion.
    And during the pivotal 1916-17 period the Germans naively thought truth would carry the day.
    It didn't, and here we are living Hitler's revenge, slowly stewing like a frog(not the French)in our home-made sea of guilt.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @Whiskey

    What truth? I honestly don’t understand in the least claims that Germany was somehow handed a raw deal because the Entente had the audacity to point out that Germany invaded a neutral country for strategic advantage.

  41. WGG [AKA "World\'s Greatest Grandson"] says:

    Texas has a huge German-American community, and they are quite proud, too. These are families who migrated around the turn of the century, and are still strongly holding on to that heritage. Many Texas towns have an explicitly German origin and maintain that image for the tourists. The only odd part is that the big cities have very little German restaurants, and many that claim to be German are just sausage and bbq huts. I think basically there are just so many thousands of crappy Mexican slop joints that it crowds out almost everything else except franchise chain places.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @WGG

    Weren't a lot of the Texas Germans (18)48'ers? Also, the Adelsverein began to send settlers to Texas in the early 1840's.

  42. What happened to German America is that it melded with people from the British Isles to create a new Northwest European majority, much like the Spanish and Italians did in Argentina. I have ancestors from Germany, Switzerland, Britain, and Ulster and wouldn’t think twice about marrying a woman with ancestry from anywhere in NW Europe whereas I would hesitate marrying one of Mediterranean or Slavic background. My father was 100% German and he always considered himself to be a “WASP” saying the Anglo-Saxons had come from Germany in the first place. Donald Trump is German and Scottish. Does anyone think he is of a “mixed” background?

  43. @Anonymous
    @Dave Pinsen

    You speak of baumgarts in bergen county?

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    The original location in Englewood, yes.

  44. @Steve Sailer
    @timothy

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    Replies: @timothy, @Blobby5, @Zach, @Reg Cæsar

    Mencken disowned Dreiser because of the latter’s favorable book on the Soviets. In his diaries, Mencken claimed Dreiser was taken for a ride by the Soviets and noted that Dreiser and Dorothy Thompson accused each other of plagiarism because they had been led around the USSR by the same Soviet officials, given the same press releases, etc, and thus both wrote the same book. It never occurred to either writer that the Soviets had fooled them, Mencken wrote.

    BTW, Mencken’s first book was actually about GB Shaw.

  45. @iSteveFan
    It is interesting to contrast the treatment of German-Americans after US entry into WW1 with the treatment of Mohammedans after 9-11. It is also interesting to see that German-Americans responded to this treatment by assimilating even further into American culture while Muslims responded to their post 9-11 treatment by doubling down on their uniqueness.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Anonymous, @JohnnyGeo, @Druid

    Well on the one hand, Germans were more similar in both culture and ethnicity so it was easier for them to assimilate.

    Of course that was also well before the Flight From White that began in the late 20th century and which Steve has been documenting.

  46. See: Demography is Destiny, American Nations Edition

    It has nice maps of the actual percentages of various European ethnics in America.

    Germans are the largest non-British group, but British Americans still dominate.

  47. @timothy
    Theodore Dreiser was arguably the most important American novelist of the early 20th century, and his somewhat strained relationship with English sentence structure might've come from his education in German-language schools.

    Here's a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn't English or Scotch-Irish. I'm not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers. (I suppose they were too busy laying the foundations of our superpowerdom, just like their kinfolk back in the homeland. American Century? More like the German Century.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @IBC, @Peter Akuleyev

    Edison, Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Bell, Bessemer, Morse, Rockefeller. Granted those aren’t all 20th century figures but that’s a pretty comprehensive list of the creators of 20th century industry up to the 1940s. Where are the Germans? German self-congratulation really is so tiresome. Germany dominated Europe for the same reason that the US in turn through Germany around its population size. In a sense Germay and the US are similar stories- no other countries better married population size advantages to competency and innovation. For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity. The idea that the dearth of noteworthy Germans until Dreiser derived from the fact that Germans where too busy creating things simply isn’t supported by facts.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Sam Haysom

    Underachievement? I agree they haven't been clogging the entering class at Harvard, but you could hardly accuse German-Americans of underachievement. They're easily ahead of NAMs, and most white ethnics such as Irish, Italians, and Poles... and as Sam Haysom said, the German genius for organization did play a huge role in the industrialization of America.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @AP

    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  48. Pat Casey says:

    Much of German immigration to America occurred before Germany was a state. That’s likely a significant factor in the lack of institutional German pride among German-Americans. There wasn’t much for anti-German American sentiment to sunder in the first place; Mencken’s German pride was an aberration that way. I definitely don’t think pro-German sentiment should be overestimated as a factor for keeping America out of WWI. Americans simply weren’t interested in fighting wars there was no good reason for them to fight (hard as it is to conceive now I suppose). The most vocal and prominent anti-war voices in America before both world wars were not hardly German themselves, an inverse analogy to the way the pro-war voices today are always Jewish Americans.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @Pat Casey

    This is an interesting point. The fact that "isolationism" and concentration of German-Americans generally overlap in the Mid-West doesn't mean that the two are completely correlated. Even Mid-West Yankee descendents realized that Mid-Western farm kids were the fodder for Eastern elite globalism.

    , @ferd
    @Pat Casey

    Pat, that's an interesting idea about pre-statehood immigration. I'm an employee of a real-deal Lutheran Christian college that is German to the core of our heritage, and just this week I was bemoaning our lack of German identity to a colleague. The town of Garland, Nebraska was named "Germantown" before WWI.

    We don't even retain an institutional memory of the erasure of our German pride and cultural distinctives.

    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Pat Casey

    , @Dave Pinsen
    @Pat Casey

    Also, the carnage of the Civil War was still within living memory.

    , @Hibernian
    @Pat Casey

    Isolationism was heavily supported by the Germans and the Irish.

  49. A large number of German immigrants served with the US Army both during the Civil War and the Indian wars afterwards.

    My father, who was born in 1900, worked in the shipyards of WWI. He always claimed that war couldn’t have been won without the many skilled German American senior workers, foremen, engineers and the like. Perhaps an overstatement, but indicative of how many Irish immigrants saw the more established Germans.

    Irish and Germans married each other in droves in the cities of the old North East, especially when they were both Catholic. Once people move out into the country ethnic loyalties dilute.

  50. @MC
    We still have pockets where German-American identity is strong. Columbus, Ohio has a pretty obvious German bent (obsession with beer, well-known German neighborhoods and restaurants, massive Oktoberfest and Christmas celebrations, half of everyone is surnamed Miller).

    I even went to high school there with the descendants of a certain infamous German...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Cincinnatus

    There’s an infamous Austrian (popular around here) who has relatives on Long Island, but Columbus?

    • Replies: @2Mintzin1
    @SFG

    Yup. In Patchogue, I think...although they changed the surname a long time ago.
    Living too close to Syosset, I suppose.

    , @MC
    @SFG

    Not quite, but getting warmer...

    Replies: @Anonymous

  51. German self-congratulation really is so tiresome.

    All ethnic self-congratulation is tiresome, including German, Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish …..

    For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity.

    Sigh. The only thing more tiresome than ethnic cheerleading is systematic ethnic disparagement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_Americans

    Also, the Rockefellers were part German, which is where the name comes from. But that goes to the point I made earlier, a lot of us have ancestry from the British Isles and also Germany, and again for a lot of us those two ancestries tend to predominate over any other strains (Irish, Slavic, Italian), so in the Census the default is either “British” (I would never list myself as “English”, even though I have some, because my British ancestry is mostly Scottish) or “German.” This also goes to Jayman’s point about predominance of English ancestry: I’m skeptical, I know many people of Scots Irish ancestry and they all had a German ancestor.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @SPMoore8

    Rockefeller was a fourth German through his con man father so yes he was part German.

    And I wasn't trying to disparage Germans just push back against the idea commenters idea that the 20th Century was the German century and the idea that Germans somehow laid the foundation of American industry.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    , @IBC
    @SPMoore8

    Apparently, quite a few of the "Scots-Irish" were actually from the north of England.


    Today, Scotch-Irish is an Americanism almost unknown in England, Ireland or Scotland.[5] The term is somewhat unclear because some of the Scotch-Irish have little or no Scottish ancestry at all, as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England, and others still from Flanders, the German Palatinate, and France (such as the French Huguenot ancestors of Davy Crockett).[9] What united these different national groups was their common Calvinist beliefs,[10] and their separation from the established church (Church of England and Church of Ireland in this case). Nevertheless, the large Scottish element in the Plantation of Ulster gave the settlements a Scottish character.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American

    The article goes on to say that the Scots-Irish in America originally referred to themselves as "Irish" but started adding the "Scotch" label to distance themselves from the Irish Catholics who started arriving in large numbers later on.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  52. @Olorin
    @GW

    Doesn't matter.

    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don't remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.

    The sense of super deep memory is very much Nordic (think of the Icelanders) and also Germanic. Anglo-Saxon, not sure how much. In my family the Nordics, Germanics, and Finns would tell stories going back 30,000 years. We used to joke about it. But the English couldn't care less about all that. They couldn't even name their great-grandparents, and seemed to be proud to forget their ancestors.

    This is why I ended up marrying later in life. It was very hard to find a white girl with a sense of her people akin to my own. She said the same thing. Our daughters will be telling the same old Pleistocene jokes to their kids that have been passed down for 10,000 years (along with their V haplogroup mtDNA).

    Did you hear the one about Deaf Jussi who stumbled onto the cave of Grandfather Honeyfang?

    Neither did he.

    Yeah, apparently they were politically incorrect people too.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @The most deplorable one

    Yes think of the Icelanders. Has any other remote civilization been more eager to efface their connection to the past? You’d be far more likely to find a Frenchman that can quote the song of Roland than an Icelander that can quote Egil’s Saga. Just because other cultures have had cultural works of suficient power to compete with their old epics (unlike Iceland) doesn’t mean that Icelanders are more in touch with their roots. Moreover, Germans don’t even like to think about German history beyond the Adenhauer years. The fact that you tell jokes about your chimerical Pleistocene ancestors (who were likely my ancestors too and the ancestors of quite a few Anglo-Saxons) when you get right down to doesn’t actually signify a connection with them. In fact it kind of belies your entire first point. Your entire connection to Uncle Honeyfang is genetic. It has no cultural component. They transmitted nothing to us but their genes.

  53. @Percy Gryce
    Thank you, Steve. The evisceration of German-American culture--with its Bunds and Vereins and its dance halls and its churches and its biergartens--is one of my favorite secret histories.

    Oh, and where are my reparations? Since I'm only about 50% Deutsch, I'd be happy with a one-half share.

    Replies: @SFG, @Johann

    Go cry into your excellently-crafted stein of Reinheitsgebot-compliant beer.

  54. @SPMoore8
    German self-congratulation really is so tiresome.

    All ethnic self-congratulation is tiresome, including German, Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish .....

    For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity.

    Sigh. The only thing more tiresome than ethnic cheerleading is systematic ethnic disparagement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_Americans

    Also, the Rockefellers were part German, which is where the name comes from. But that goes to the point I made earlier, a lot of us have ancestry from the British Isles and also Germany, and again for a lot of us those two ancestries tend to predominate over any other strains (Irish, Slavic, Italian), so in the Census the default is either "British" (I would never list myself as "English", even though I have some, because my British ancestry is mostly Scottish) or "German." This also goes to Jayman's point about predominance of English ancestry: I'm skeptical, I know many people of Scots Irish ancestry and they all had a German ancestor.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @IBC

    Rockefeller was a fourth German through his con man father so yes he was part German.

    And I wasn’t trying to disparage Germans just push back against the idea commenters idea that the 20th Century was the German century and the idea that Germans somehow laid the foundation of American industry.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Sam Haysom

    That's fine, as long as you use the same metric for Yuri Slezkine and his "Jewish Century", and people write books about how the Irish Saved Civilization, or the Italians, or the Greeks, or who knows what ......

    I remember about 50 years ago Berkeley High had a special day and all the l'il ethnic groups had rooms and pavilions where they served ethnic food. So there was an Italian Club, and a Jewish Club, and a French Club, and a Black American Club, and a Chinese Club, and Puerto Rican Club, and a Mexican Club .......

    And I wasn't really interested in any of them and didn't identify with any of them or their cuisines. But I was getting hungry.

    So I went to the Pacific Islander Club pavilion and ate pizza.

    Germans did invent the automobile, I'll give them that. They also heavily dominated the petrochemical industry, and I think still do, even though they lost all their patents in the two world wars. Also, Henry Kaiser.

    But I agree with you, Germanophiles should give it a rest. Germanophobes, too.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom

  55. @Sam Haysom
    @timothy

    Edison, Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Bell, Bessemer, Morse, Rockefeller. Granted those aren't all 20th century figures but that's a pretty comprehensive list of the creators of 20th century industry up to the 1940s. Where are the Germans? German self-congratulation really is so tiresome. Germany dominated Europe for the same reason that the US in turn through Germany around its population size. In a sense Germay and the US are similar stories- no other countries better married population size advantages to competency and innovation. For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity. The idea that the dearth of noteworthy Germans until Dreiser derived from the fact that Germans where too busy creating things simply isn't supported by facts.

    Replies: @SFG, @Hippopotamusdrome

    Underachievement? I agree they haven’t been clogging the entering class at Harvard, but you could hardly accuse German-Americans of underachievement. They’re easily ahead of NAMs, and most white ethnics such as Irish, Italians, and Poles… and as Sam Haysom said, the German genius for organization did play a huge role in the industrialization of America.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @SFG

    German American achievement has definitely picked up since WW1 with Boeing and Hilton being good examples of this, but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity. There are figures like Kraft and Heinz too but again those are companies that took off post-WW2 when German integration had been more or less forced. I don't know how else to describe such a large portion of the American population contributing such a small number of key figures to defining stages of American industrial growth. Likewise German-American contribution to the arts was non-existent until basically Dreiser.

    Replies: @iSteveFan

    , @AP
    @SFG

    List of per capita income by ethnicity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income_in_the_United_States_by_ancestry

    Germans are fairly low down the list, #37, lower than British, most Scandinavians, and most Eastern Europeans, and only slightly higher than traditionally "poor" whites such as Italians, Irish, and French Canadians.

  56. @Sam Haysom
    @SPMoore8

    Rockefeller was a fourth German through his con man father so yes he was part German.

    And I wasn't trying to disparage Germans just push back against the idea commenters idea that the 20th Century was the German century and the idea that Germans somehow laid the foundation of American industry.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    That’s fine, as long as you use the same metric for Yuri Slezkine and his “Jewish Century”, and people write books about how the Irish Saved Civilization, or the Italians, or the Greeks, or who knows what ……

    I remember about 50 years ago Berkeley High had a special day and all the l’il ethnic groups had rooms and pavilions where they served ethnic food. So there was an Italian Club, and a Jewish Club, and a French Club, and a Black American Club, and a Chinese Club, and Puerto Rican Club, and a Mexican Club …….

    And I wasn’t really interested in any of them and didn’t identify with any of them or their cuisines. But I was getting hungry.

    So I went to the Pacific Islander Club pavilion and ate pizza.

    Germans did invent the automobile, I’ll give them that. They also heavily dominated the petrochemical industry, and I think still do, even though they lost all their patents in the two world wars. Also, Henry Kaiser.

    But I agree with you, Germanophiles should give it a rest. Germanophobes, too.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @SPMoore8

    Absolutely claims of the Jewish Century are even more laughable. German achievement was extraordinary in the 20th century. But most of it was done by Germans living in Germany rather than German Americans.

  57. While I was living in Europe, several people told me stories that go something like this: “The United States was one vote from making German the official language you know”. So many people told me this, I had to do some googling. It turns out that they were one vote away from making one copy of the Constitution in German.

  58. What is the most American of holidays–other than Thanksgiving–if not the Fourth of July? A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all. Lose two world wars and the overt traces of German social identities get erased. Oh and where did the model of the pride of U.S. higher education come from–forget the thin veneer of Oxbridge on Harvard’s ivy-covered walls–at its heart is the German research university. And when Ben Franklin was worried about English being supplanted as the dominant language in Pennsylvania was he worried about Spanish-speaking immigrants? I don’t think so.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @Jimbob


    A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all.
     
    You are right. American folk culture is far more Germanic than most Americans realize. It is interesting how few English traditional foods and folk traditions live in US culture - we don't do maypoles in the US or pantomimes, we don't eat sausage rolls or puddings, we don't drink flat ale. We do eat German style brats and frankfurters, even with sauerkraut, the most popular beer style is lager, and we put up German style fir trees for Christmas.

    Replies: @Sean, @Brutusale

  59. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Olorin
    @GW

    Doesn't matter.

    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don't remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.

    The sense of super deep memory is very much Nordic (think of the Icelanders) and also Germanic. Anglo-Saxon, not sure how much. In my family the Nordics, Germanics, and Finns would tell stories going back 30,000 years. We used to joke about it. But the English couldn't care less about all that. They couldn't even name their great-grandparents, and seemed to be proud to forget their ancestors.

    This is why I ended up marrying later in life. It was very hard to find a white girl with a sense of her people akin to my own. She said the same thing. Our daughters will be telling the same old Pleistocene jokes to their kids that have been passed down for 10,000 years (along with their V haplogroup mtDNA).

    Did you hear the one about Deaf Jussi who stumbled onto the cave of Grandfather Honeyfang?

    Neither did he.

    Yeah, apparently they were politically incorrect people too.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @The most deplorable one

    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don’t remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.

    Which type of ‘culture’ are you talking about? Most ‘culture’ changes too quickly to have such a selective effect.

    Read up on truncation selection. Greg Cochran has some stuff on it. If I recall, he estimates that it takes something of the order of 30 generations to change one attribute (violence-proneness) by removing the most violent one or two percent each year.

    The sorts of cultural things that can have an effect on the gene pool are long lived cultural substrates, like religion.

    The Soviets tried for three generations to eliminate Orthodox Christianity in Russia and it has made a comeback after the break up of the USSR, and I suspect that that is because Orthodox Christianity has selected for people to be more amenable to Orthodox Christianity over the approximately 1,000 years that it has been a force in Russia and surrounds.

    Even language changes too quickly so the things that language selects for are likely to be:

    1. The physical attributes necessary for language production, including breathing control and brain structures

    2. The ability to absorb the language being spoken around you at birth.

    Even claims that certain groups are adapted to handling tonal languages seem unlikely, since there is strong evidence that Chinese languages, for example, were non tonal (in their current sense) about two thousand years ago.

    • Replies: @athEIst
    @The most deplorable one

    The Soviets tried for three generations to eliminate Orthodox Christianity in Russia and it has made a comeback after the break up of the USSR.
    And HOW! I came across PRAVDA about 10 years ago. The former TRUTH of the USSR was all full of PRO-religion articles.
    p.s. not a good thing

  60. @SFG
    @Sam Haysom

    Underachievement? I agree they haven't been clogging the entering class at Harvard, but you could hardly accuse German-Americans of underachievement. They're easily ahead of NAMs, and most white ethnics such as Irish, Italians, and Poles... and as Sam Haysom said, the German genius for organization did play a huge role in the industrialization of America.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @AP

    German American achievement has definitely picked up since WW1 with Boeing and Hilton being good examples of this, but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity. There are figures like Kraft and Heinz too but again those are companies that took off post-WW2 when German integration had been more or less forced. I don’t know how else to describe such a large portion of the American population contributing such a small number of key figures to defining stages of American industrial growth. Likewise German-American contribution to the arts was non-existent until basically Dreiser.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    @Sam Haysom


    , but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity.
     
    What about Westinghouse? Electricity was sort of his thing.

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    Replies: @jack o'fire

  61. @SPMoore8
    @Sam Haysom

    That's fine, as long as you use the same metric for Yuri Slezkine and his "Jewish Century", and people write books about how the Irish Saved Civilization, or the Italians, or the Greeks, or who knows what ......

    I remember about 50 years ago Berkeley High had a special day and all the l'il ethnic groups had rooms and pavilions where they served ethnic food. So there was an Italian Club, and a Jewish Club, and a French Club, and a Black American Club, and a Chinese Club, and Puerto Rican Club, and a Mexican Club .......

    And I wasn't really interested in any of them and didn't identify with any of them or their cuisines. But I was getting hungry.

    So I went to the Pacific Islander Club pavilion and ate pizza.

    Germans did invent the automobile, I'll give them that. They also heavily dominated the petrochemical industry, and I think still do, even though they lost all their patents in the two world wars. Also, Henry Kaiser.

    But I agree with you, Germanophiles should give it a rest. Germanophobes, too.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom

    Absolutely claims of the Jewish Century are even more laughable. German achievement was extraordinary in the 20th century. But most of it was done by Germans living in Germany rather than German Americans.

  62. German Americans are working too hard to be political. So are Irish Americans, Slavic Americans and Italian Americans. And, to be fair, even a lot of Hispanic Americans. Most British Americans today, BTW, are indistinguishable from the aforementioned in their prospects and lives.

    Somebody has to pay the taxes. We can’t all be 1%er Anglo-Jewish high fliers or black screw-ups. And they won’t let us, either. Compare welfare awards of whites vs. blacks or Hispanics. Whites are denied social services/benefits at a much higher rate than browns. It’s a Democrat thing.

    For white ethnics, it’s sink or swim. For browns, it’s like Sweden. People would be surprised to learn how many unobtrusive, homeless, dead broke white folks there are out there. Homeless in Northern Minnesota? You betcha! Maine, Alaska, Washington state, Montana, yah sure.

    Think there’s public housing available in NY City for these folks? Nope, not a chance.

    • Replies: @anowow
    @Bill P

    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US. They were much more into the ethnic grievance/victimization than the Germans were. NINA signs are part of this mythology- Ted Kennedy claimed to have seen them! They practised ethnic nepotism in police departments.

    The Democratic party is in may ways an Irish creation.

    Replies: @Bill P

    , @unpc downunder
    @Bill P

    "Somebody has to pay the taxes. We can’t all be 1%er Anglo-Jewish high fliers or black screw-ups. And they won’t let us, either. Compare welfare awards of whites vs. blacks or Hispanics."

    I've heard many people in Australia and NZ say that welfare offices in white rural areas are much stricter than they are in urban multicultural areas. In whitebread small cities and towns welfare offices are much more aggressive about getting people in jobs and are more likely to cut benefits if people don't tow the line.

    This difference probably comes down to fear - either fear of being accussed of racism, or fear of a crazed Maori , Aboriginal or Muslim guy going postal if his benefit is cut off.

  63. @Pat Casey
    Much of German immigration to America occurred before Germany was a state. That's likely a significant factor in the lack of institutional German pride among German-Americans. There wasn't much for anti-German American sentiment to sunder in the first place; Mencken's German pride was an aberration that way. I definitely don't think pro-German sentiment should be overestimated as a factor for keeping America out of WWI. Americans simply weren't interested in fighting wars there was no good reason for them to fight (hard as it is to conceive now I suppose). The most vocal and prominent anti-war voices in America before both world wars were not hardly German themselves, an inverse analogy to the way the pro-war voices today are always Jewish Americans.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @ferd, @Dave Pinsen, @Hibernian

    This is an interesting point. The fact that “isolationism” and concentration of German-Americans generally overlap in the Mid-West doesn’t mean that the two are completely correlated. Even Mid-West Yankee descendents realized that Mid-Western farm kids were the fodder for Eastern elite globalism.

  64. It’s interesting to compare how Steve covers German-Americans kvetching about their past American experience vs. Jews, or Irish, or Italians doing the same. There is no snarking about country clubs, no examples of prominent German-Americans implying that the discrimination against the average joes wasn’t so bad, no hints that German-Americans somehow deserved all that…

    In the end it’s even implied that the whole German issue was simply yet another front in the cold civil war between different groups of WASPs.

  65. @Sam Haysom
    @timothy

    Edison, Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Bell, Bessemer, Morse, Rockefeller. Granted those aren't all 20th century figures but that's a pretty comprehensive list of the creators of 20th century industry up to the 1940s. Where are the Germans? German self-congratulation really is so tiresome. Germany dominated Europe for the same reason that the US in turn through Germany around its population size. In a sense Germay and the US are similar stories- no other countries better married population size advantages to competency and innovation. For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity. The idea that the dearth of noteworthy Germans until Dreiser derived from the fact that Germans where too busy creating things simply isn't supported by facts.

    Replies: @SFG, @Hippopotamusdrome

  66. WGG [AKA "World\'s Greatest Grandson"] says:

    There is a new article over at Radix Journal that ties into this German-American thread regarding the German-American culture in Wisconsin. It also ties into Steve’s other recent piece about Walker. And Ryan Andrews gives a shout-out to Steve within it.

    http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2015/9/22/the-scott-walker-syndrome

  67. There is a certain ethnic group that gets a certain amount of coverage around here, you know the ones some of whom complain about not being invited into the Gentile country clubs. How do we distinguish the Jews from the German Jews and how do we consider the overlap?

    I might be a part assimilated member of this tribe, but from what I recall of my Jewish family they did say they were both Germans and Jews.

    My Jewish grandfather used to quip that when the Germans really wanted to make the Jews’ lives hell, they married them… alluding of course to his German Catholic wife.

  68. @WGG
    Texas has a huge German-American community, and they are quite proud, too. These are families who migrated around the turn of the century, and are still strongly holding on to that heritage. Many Texas towns have an explicitly German origin and maintain that image for the tourists. The only odd part is that the big cities have very little German restaurants, and many that claim to be German are just sausage and bbq huts. I think basically there are just so many thousands of crappy Mexican slop joints that it crowds out almost everything else except franchise chain places.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Weren’t a lot of the Texas Germans (18)48’ers? Also, the Adelsverein began to send settlers to Texas in the early 1840’s.

  69. @Bill P
    German Americans are working too hard to be political. So are Irish Americans, Slavic Americans and Italian Americans. And, to be fair, even a lot of Hispanic Americans. Most British Americans today, BTW, are indistinguishable from the aforementioned in their prospects and lives.

    Somebody has to pay the taxes. We can't all be 1%er Anglo-Jewish high fliers or black screw-ups. And they won't let us, either. Compare welfare awards of whites vs. blacks or Hispanics. Whites are denied social services/benefits at a much higher rate than browns. It's a Democrat thing.

    For white ethnics, it's sink or swim. For browns, it's like Sweden. People would be surprised to learn how many unobtrusive, homeless, dead broke white folks there are out there. Homeless in Northern Minnesota? You betcha! Maine, Alaska, Washington state, Montana, yah sure.

    Think there's public housing available in NY City for these folks? Nope, not a chance.

    Replies: @anowow, @unpc downunder

    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US. They were much more into the ethnic grievance/victimization than the Germans were. NINA signs are part of this mythology- Ted Kennedy claimed to have seen them! They practised ethnic nepotism in police departments.

    The Democratic party is in may ways an Irish creation.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @anowow


    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US.
     
    It's been 50 years since the Irish were a major force in national politics. Have things improved much since then?

    Replies: @anowow

  70. I”m not sure if the Germans on the whole here were less militaristic, but they were definitely more leftist and/or “nice”. The 1848 invasion into this country brought the first real taste of Continental leftisim into America. At least some of the intellectual strains that are sometimes attributed to the Ashkenazis who came a half century later really began with the German forty eighters, gentile and Jewish. Much like the Huguenot brain drain crippled France, Germany’s loss of the “nice” guys changed the country irrevocably.

    August Willich , the great Civil War general, is a classic case: Prussian nobility, military training, intellectual Hegelian Communist, renounced his title and immigrated right before the war. Masterful war record, including successes at Shiloh and Missionary Ridge.

    I’ve read letters by German Union soldiers serving in the war to relatives back in Europe. They described the war as an almost holy cause.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @yaqub the mad scientist

    German Jews are a subset of Ashkenazi Jews. The founding rabbis of the Ashkenazi community lived in the Rhineland. The East European Jewish communities were founded later, often by Jews who fled or were expelled from German, Austrian or Bohemian territory. The common language of the Eastern European Jews was Yiddish, which was a descendant of the medieval German Jews' Judendeutsch (German written in Hebrew characters) with additional borrowings from Slavic languages and Hebrew.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

    , @SFG
    @yaqub the mad scientist

    Weren't most Europeans revolted by slavery?

  71. @SFG
    @MC

    There's an infamous Austrian (popular around here) who has relatives on Long Island, but Columbus?

    Replies: @2Mintzin1, @MC

    Yup. In Patchogue, I think…although they changed the surname a long time ago.
    Living too close to Syosset, I suppose.

  72. I’ve often wondered how Mencken would have turned out if he hadn’t been a member of a culturally oppressed minority. It probably helped curb his natural conceit, although if he saw today what had replaced the anglo-saxon culture he professed to despise, I wonder how he’d react.

  73. Yes, German culture has disappeared. But how much is really left of Irish culture, or Italian, Dutch, French, Scandinavian and Eastern and Central European cultures, or even the traditional Jewish culture of the 1880-1920 immigrants? The answer is that all of these cultures have all been almost completely subsumed into the melting pot of a common (white) American culture. That was the intended result of the 1924 Immigration Act, combined with the aggressive Americanization movement that began in the 1910s and continued through the 1950s — the most triumphantly successful effort in history by any nation to assimilate large numbers of immigrants and to resolve long-standing ethnic divisions and hatreds. This is the approach that the immigration zealots of today reject in favor of turning the US into another Yugoslavia.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  74. My favorite Texan of German descent: Doug Sahm of the Sir Douglas Quintet, creator of “She’s About a Mover” and this gem (which obviously enfluenced the young Elvis Costello).

  75. Albert Bierstadt was a big-deal Hudson River School painter. John Philip Sousa was of half German descent.

    The Yorkville neighborhood on Manhattan’s Upper East Side still had some of its German character when I lived there in the late ’70s and early’80s — old German people, little German stores and restaurants. That’s all gone now, though.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Paleo Retiree

    I remember there was still a significant German and Hungarian flavor in Yorkville 30-35 years ago. All gone now.

  76. @SPMoore8
    It’s also that German-Americans tended to be less militaristic.

    Right, like John Pershing, Chester Nimitz, Dwight Eisenhower .... just pointing it out. ;-)

    I have numerous German ancestors going back to the 17th Century. The thing is that Germans always marry out, as do the Irish and Scots Irish; and they frequently marry each other. If there were indeed 8 MM Germans out of 76 MM 115 years ago, then it's very credible that many Americans identify with German as their sole ethnicity on the census. I have in the past; and the reason for that is because my German ancestors were harassed for being German in 1917, and my non-German ancestors were harassed for defending the rights of German Americans. It was an ugly time. HOWEVER, it can also be overplayed, and I suspect that Mr. Kirschbaum is doing just that. But I should also be honest and say that, when one is as mixed as I am (and most Americans with German ancestors) "American" seems to be the only legitimate self-descriptor.

    I studied German and made sure my children studied German simply because it is a very important language in 19th and 20th Century scholarship. But of course a serious student should study more than just one foreign language.

    German Americans have largely assimilated but they have left their imprint in our culture (I would argue) in many ways. In fact, one way that tends not to be noticed is in our educational system, not only kindergarten (obvious) but even university culture, largely developed in the 19th Century, was heavily based on German models and the study of any of the social sciences and/or the humanities are also heavily indebted (I seem to recall that one of the complaints of "The Closing of the American Mind" involved such debt.)

    In a word, I think Mr Kirschbaum's efforts might be a bit wrongheaded; the US has significant German roots (and other national roots), those should be recognized and celebrated, but the World Wars are a long time ago now. No need to go on and on about it. And I myself wouldn't want to forsake my other ethno-cultural roots for the sake of some ersatz sense of unity with some Verein.

    Replies: @Marina, @Zach

    We have significant German ancestry on my mother’s side, but we all just call ourselves “American.” Nobody in our family has immigrated in 150 years; we’re just Northern European mutts. We are American and nothing else, for better or worse.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  77. iSteveFan says:
    @Sam Haysom
    @SFG

    German American achievement has definitely picked up since WW1 with Boeing and Hilton being good examples of this, but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity. There are figures like Kraft and Heinz too but again those are companies that took off post-WW2 when German integration had been more or less forced. I don't know how else to describe such a large portion of the American population contributing such a small number of key figures to defining stages of American industrial growth. Likewise German-American contribution to the arts was non-existent until basically Dreiser.

    Replies: @iSteveFan

    , but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity.

    What about Westinghouse? Electricity was sort of his thing.

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    • Replies: @jack o'fire
    @iSteveFan

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    Jobs was adopted, he was of Syrian ancestry. Much like Germany adopting Syrians today.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  78. @Paleo Retiree
    Albert Bierstadt was a big-deal Hudson River School painter. John Philip Sousa was of half German descent.

    The Yorkville neighborhood on Manhattan's Upper East Side still had some of its German character when I lived there in the late '70s and early'80s -- old German people, little German stores and restaurants. That's all gone now, though.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    I remember there was still a significant German and Hungarian flavor in Yorkville 30-35 years ago. All gone now.

  79. @iSteveFan
    It is interesting to contrast the treatment of German-Americans after US entry into WW1 with the treatment of Mohammedans after 9-11. It is also interesting to see that German-Americans responded to this treatment by assimilating even further into American culture while Muslims responded to their post 9-11 treatment by doubling down on their uniqueness.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Anonymous, @JohnnyGeo, @Druid

    It’s very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It’s much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    @Anonymous


    It’s very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It’s much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.
     
    It might not be an apples to apples comparison, but it sure seems like an endorsement for an immigration act like 1924's as opposed to the later one in 1965.

    Replies: @Rdm

    , @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    Well, it would be pretty easy for a lot of the Middle Easterners to claim they're from the European side of the Mediterranean. But that's beside the point, really. No one ever expected them to lie about their origin, only to cut the woe is me islamophobia crap and to be truly moderate (a delusional expectation of its own, no such thing for someone who truly believes in the Koran).

    Replies: @anon

  80. @Pat Casey
    Much of German immigration to America occurred before Germany was a state. That's likely a significant factor in the lack of institutional German pride among German-Americans. There wasn't much for anti-German American sentiment to sunder in the first place; Mencken's German pride was an aberration that way. I definitely don't think pro-German sentiment should be overestimated as a factor for keeping America out of WWI. Americans simply weren't interested in fighting wars there was no good reason for them to fight (hard as it is to conceive now I suppose). The most vocal and prominent anti-war voices in America before both world wars were not hardly German themselves, an inverse analogy to the way the pro-war voices today are always Jewish Americans.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @ferd, @Dave Pinsen, @Hibernian

    Pat, that’s an interesting idea about pre-statehood immigration. I’m an employee of a real-deal Lutheran Christian college that is German to the core of our heritage, and just this week I was bemoaning our lack of German identity to a colleague. The town of Garland, Nebraska was named “Germantown” before WWI.

    We don’t even retain an institutional memory of the erasure of our German pride and cultural distinctives.

    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @ferd


    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.
     
    Germans have been coming rather steadily since the 17th century. The Dutch came in two distinct waves-- to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.

    The former are not just culturally, but genetically assimilated. My Michigan grandmother had a Dutch maiden name, and I assumed she descended from the mid-1800s wave. But no, it turned out to be New Netherland. That left her, and me, an eighth or sixteenth as Dutch as I had
    imagined.

    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @The Last Real Calvinist

    , @Pat Casey
    @ferd

    Your people have too much to forget for Western Civilization to survive without remembering. Between Hegel and Nietzsche and Heidegger, tragedy as a watchword among philosophers would be too cheap to mention. Teach your students words that accustom them to Goethe. And make them learn why nothing matters more than knowing when to quote him. When the mind swings by a grass blade the ant's forefoot shall save you: Do not surrender perception. The next age will damn you.

    Replies: @Pat Casey

  81. @SFG
    @MC

    There's an infamous Austrian (popular around here) who has relatives on Long Island, but Columbus?

    Replies: @2Mintzin1, @MC

    Not quite, but getting warmer…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @MC

    Goering? Heinrich Himmler only had one daughter who currently lives in the Netherlands, but he had siblings. One of his grandnieces, Katrin Himmler, married an Israeli Jew, but I think she lives in Germany. One of Dr. Josef Mengele's grandsons lives in Los Angeles, but I'm not aware of any relatives in Ohio.

    Replies: @MC

  82. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    There had long been doubts about the loyalty of German-Americans, especially in the myriad pockets of the Midwest where they were particularly dominant. Many had hoped to stave off assimilation by clinging to their language and dual loyalties — but that commitment to their culture suddenly became a vulnerability.

    Does that mean we have to go to war with Mexico to make all the Mexicans living here to integrate?

    How about going to war with Somalia to make those Somalis integrate?

    Muslims?

  83. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Pretty sure that another historical Teutonic-stock figure was Thomas Nast, creator of the elephant & donkey party icons (he was a Repub, natch). The Wall Street Journal used to occasionally run articles about German contributions to Yankee society, aside from Christmas and beer; why this cultural theme appealed to their editors, I can’t say but I recall a few separate pieces in the 90s & 00s. Of course zee Germans are very big on capital-P Philosophy (Derb pointed this out once) which is the sort of thing I assume think-tank drones waste their college years on. And then you’d also see, for example, a new Mencken biography reviewed by Terry Teachout who’d also written one; or airport-book discussions of “Von Clausewitz on Leadership,” lol.

    One of the subtler Kulturkampfen in N. America is found in the Upper Midwest between Scandinavians and Germans (with the latter typically more representative of red-white-n-blue Josef Sechspak)

  84. There is still a very strong and pervasive Polish flavor to Greenpoint. Spend some time there before the Polish character is bleached out by hipsters

  85. The U.S. got a large proportion of Germans in Amish or Quaker-like quietist sects, liberal 1848ers, and other Nice Germans, leaving Germany with a higher proportion of Not Nice Germans.

    And with Jews, it was the opposite. The remaining ones rolled over because the Schumers and Boxers and Dershowitzes and other ferals were over here.

  86. I guess Truth must be off today since he hasn’t yet registered the point; but on purely HBD grounds, here of all places, postulating that Germans are natural pacifists is a real howler. Also I’ve noticed Japanese people seem to be genetically concerned about radioactive lizards

  87. especially after the revelation of an ill-conceived German plan for Mexico to invade the United States.

    This needs to get a lot more press. Connect the current invasion with the earlier, Nazi inspired, attempted invasion.

  88. @The Z Blog
    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War. Someone brought up Wilson and he is a good example. Wilson was a borderland Scots-Irish, but aped the style of the old Yankees. In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the '92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms.

    German culture has largely been over run by Yankee culture on the one hand and the red neck hillbilly culture on the other. Pennsylvania and Ohio are good examples. You have the WASPy pockets that exert enormous influence, usually by harnessing the black vote. Everywhere else is downscale white.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    “In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the ’92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms.”

    The soliciting of under-the-desk blow-jobs is a Yankee cultural norm? Who knew.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    The soliciting of under-the-desk blow-jobs is a Yankee cultural norm? Who knew.
     
    When was the last time New Hampshire could properly be described as "Yankee"? They voted for FDR three times, largely due to Quebec overflow. Their most notable recent products have been the John Sununus, Christa (Corrigan) McAuliffe, Steven "Tyler" Tallarico and Joe "Perry" Perreira of Aerosmith, and Jodi Picoult-- all of whom were born out of state.
  89. @SPMoore8
    German self-congratulation really is so tiresome.

    All ethnic self-congratulation is tiresome, including German, Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish .....

    For whatever reason, Germans in the US however have been a story of underachievement and insularity.

    Sigh. The only thing more tiresome than ethnic cheerleading is systematic ethnic disparagement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_Americans

    Also, the Rockefellers were part German, which is where the name comes from. But that goes to the point I made earlier, a lot of us have ancestry from the British Isles and also Germany, and again for a lot of us those two ancestries tend to predominate over any other strains (Irish, Slavic, Italian), so in the Census the default is either "British" (I would never list myself as "English", even though I have some, because my British ancestry is mostly Scottish) or "German." This also goes to Jayman's point about predominance of English ancestry: I'm skeptical, I know many people of Scots Irish ancestry and they all had a German ancestor.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @IBC

    Apparently, quite a few of the “Scots-Irish” were actually from the north of England.

    Today, Scotch-Irish is an Americanism almost unknown in England, Ireland or Scotland.[5] The term is somewhat unclear because some of the Scotch-Irish have little or no Scottish ancestry at all, as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England, and others still from Flanders, the German Palatinate, and France (such as the French Huguenot ancestors of Davy Crockett).[9] What united these different national groups was their common Calvinist beliefs,[10] and their separation from the established church (Church of England and Church of Ireland in this case). Nevertheless, the large Scottish element in the Plantation of Ulster gave the settlements a Scottish character.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American

    The article goes on to say that the Scots-Irish in America originally referred to themselves as “Irish” but started adding the “Scotch” label to distance themselves from the Irish Catholics who started arriving in large numbers later on.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @IBC

    Well, "some" is not the same as "quite a few". In this country, "Scots Irish" is usually reserved for people from Ulster (and sometimes other parts of Ireland) who were Presbyterian, and the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of "Mc's" and so on. On the other hand, as with the early Dutch, there was significant inputs from Swedes, Germans, Huguenots, etc. into the mix, if not before they came here, then pretty soon after they got off the boat.

    Replies: @IBC

  90. “But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them.”

    Irony alert:

    By World War I, however, [Nietzsche] had acquired a reputation as an inspiration for right-wing German militarism. The reality was Nietzsche was an opponent of volkist pan-Germanism and advocated a nobiliary, trans-national pan-Europeanism incorporating the cultural-spiritual elite from all Western nations—including…Israel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @HA

    Nietzsche's aphoristic works -- which, by the way, is most of his output -- are easily cherry picked for incendiary militaristic quotes, especially when those works had been bowdlerized by his sister.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the idea that Nietzschean extracts were handed around to the troops.

    Replies: @5371

  91. @conatus
    Paul Gottfried brings up President Wilson's Anglophile and his reaching out to the Brits by favoring the Anglos in the US and shunning the Germans. Wilson, the Anglo-Saxon, admired Britain and was not enamored of the young upstart on the continent. Others might say it all revolved around the Balfour Declaration but at any rate the Anglos ruled the day in 1917 and the US changed history by coming into WW1 on the side of the Anglos. The Germans were winning the war but we tipped the scales and the result? The Versailles Lie, the Germans were starved into signing the guilt clause(the armistice was six months before the Treaty of Versailles) by the allies, and then....then Hitler came along to lead the pissed off Germans down the road to Ragnarok in WW2.
    I also think one of the unmentioned causes the US population went with the Brits is the Germans were as bad at public relations as the Scotch-Irish, who sing songs like,"You don't like us? We don't care." That is not a way to sway US public opinion.
    And during the pivotal 1916-17 period the Germans naively thought truth would carry the day.
    It didn't, and here we are living Hitler's revenge, slowly stewing like a frog(not the French)in our home-made sea of guilt.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @Whiskey

    Germany already lost with the failure of the Ludendirf Offensive. The professiinal Bri army was wiped out in Belgium in 1914 and it took until late 1917 for it to reform. By June 1918 German soldiers were in rags, starving, with half their units casaulties.

  92. @SPMoore8
    It’s also that German-Americans tended to be less militaristic.

    Right, like John Pershing, Chester Nimitz, Dwight Eisenhower .... just pointing it out. ;-)

    I have numerous German ancestors going back to the 17th Century. The thing is that Germans always marry out, as do the Irish and Scots Irish; and they frequently marry each other. If there were indeed 8 MM Germans out of 76 MM 115 years ago, then it's very credible that many Americans identify with German as their sole ethnicity on the census. I have in the past; and the reason for that is because my German ancestors were harassed for being German in 1917, and my non-German ancestors were harassed for defending the rights of German Americans. It was an ugly time. HOWEVER, it can also be overplayed, and I suspect that Mr. Kirschbaum is doing just that. But I should also be honest and say that, when one is as mixed as I am (and most Americans with German ancestors) "American" seems to be the only legitimate self-descriptor.

    I studied German and made sure my children studied German simply because it is a very important language in 19th and 20th Century scholarship. But of course a serious student should study more than just one foreign language.

    German Americans have largely assimilated but they have left their imprint in our culture (I would argue) in many ways. In fact, one way that tends not to be noticed is in our educational system, not only kindergarten (obvious) but even university culture, largely developed in the 19th Century, was heavily based on German models and the study of any of the social sciences and/or the humanities are also heavily indebted (I seem to recall that one of the complaints of "The Closing of the American Mind" involved such debt.)

    In a word, I think Mr Kirschbaum's efforts might be a bit wrongheaded; the US has significant German roots (and other national roots), those should be recognized and celebrated, but the World Wars are a long time ago now. No need to go on and on about it. And I myself wouldn't want to forsake my other ethno-cultural roots for the sake of some ersatz sense of unity with some Verein.

    Replies: @Marina, @Zach

    Eisenhower came from a family of pacifists–his mother broke down when he went off to West Point. German immigrants were also strong opponents of slavery.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Zach

    Yes, indeed, not only were the Germans opposed to slavery but they also tended to have much more amicable relations with Native Americans. Most of the original Germans were sectarians of one kind or another, but they weren't all Amish by any means. Many of them blended in over time, and married out, over time. Come to think of it, the man who raised George Washington Carver was a German who lived in Missouri.

    I only wished to make the point that many German Americans have distinguished themselves for their martial skill, thus contradicting iSteve, and I went for the low hanging fruit, not even mentioning (inter alia) Norman Schwarzkopf, Chuck Yeager, Carl Spaatz, Elmo Zumwalt.

    Replies: @IBC

  93. @Steve Sailer
    @timothy

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    Replies: @timothy, @Blobby5, @Zach, @Reg Cæsar

    Mencken went on and on about how awesome Dreiser was.

    However, it was Dreiser’s brother Paul that Hollywood felt worthy of a biopic, starring Victor Mature.

  94. iSteveFan says:
    @Anonymous
    @iSteveFan

    It's very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It's much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

    Replies: @iSteveFan, @Anonymous

    It’s very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It’s much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

    It might not be an apples to apples comparison, but it sure seems like an endorsement for an immigration act like 1924’s as opposed to the later one in 1965.

    • Replies: @Rdm
    @iSteveFan

    Surely it's likely the case.

    Personal anecdote, a Swedish guy who was born in England, always claimed He is English whenever it's convenient for him to say so. His parents were Swedish. He later obtained his American citizenship and become full-fledged "American".

    When come across Americans, he says he's English because his accent is not American. But when he comes across full-fledged English, he says he's Swedish.

    And that's how weird American definition is. Those whites claiming whichever region they like to when it's convenient.

    One time, come across a shortest ever White guy who says his parents from Dutch. Remember Dutch are the tallest people on Earth. And you wonder how on earth a guy with a 5'3'' claims he's Dutch. I'm speechless.

  95. @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the ’92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms."

    The soliciting of under-the-desk blow-jobs is a Yankee cultural norm? Who knew.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The soliciting of under-the-desk blow-jobs is a Yankee cultural norm? Who knew.

    When was the last time New Hampshire could properly be described as “Yankee”? They voted for FDR three times, largely due to Quebec overflow. Their most notable recent products have been the John Sununus, Christa (Corrigan) McAuliffe, Steven “Tyler” Tallarico and Joe “Perry” Perreira of Aerosmith, and Jodi Picoult– all of whom were born out of state.

  96. @timothy
    Theodore Dreiser was arguably the most important American novelist of the early 20th century, and his somewhat strained relationship with English sentence structure might've come from his education in German-language schools.

    Here's a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn't English or Scotch-Irish. I'm not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers. (I suppose they were too busy laying the foundations of our superpowerdom, just like their kinfolk back in the homeland. American Century? More like the German Century.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @IBC, @Peter Akuleyev

    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish.

    Not quite fiction, but the cartoonist Thomas Nast was born in Germany. He was responsible for many (dare I say it?) iconic images in American culture such as Uncle Sam, the Democratic donkey, the Republican elephant, and of course, Santa Claus. He also penned many, very politically incorrect drawings of drunken Irishmen, predatory priests and the like, so his current place in the cartoon canon is somewhat clouded. (Although he also drew sympathetic depictions of Chinese people, American Indians, and Black Americans).

    Ub Iwerks, who helped create Mickey Mouse, and Rudolph Dirks, who created the long-running comic strip The Katzenjammer Kids, were also of German background.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @IBC

    Iwerks was Friesian.

    Replies: @IBC

  97. @Zach
    @SPMoore8

    Eisenhower came from a family of pacifists--his mother broke down when he went off to West Point. German immigrants were also strong opponents of slavery.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Yes, indeed, not only were the Germans opposed to slavery but they also tended to have much more amicable relations with Native Americans. Most of the original Germans were sectarians of one kind or another, but they weren’t all Amish by any means. Many of them blended in over time, and married out, over time. Come to think of it, the man who raised George Washington Carver was a German who lived in Missouri.

    I only wished to make the point that many German Americans have distinguished themselves for their martial skill, thus contradicting iSteve, and I went for the low hanging fruit, not even mentioning (inter alia) Norman Schwarzkopf, Chuck Yeager, Carl Spaatz, Elmo Zumwalt.

    • Replies: @IBC
    @SPMoore8

    Not trying to bash German-Americans, but I can't resist mentioning George Armstrong Custer, who was of old-line German and probably Scots-Irish descent . I don't think he actually hated American Indians, but he was a believer in Manifest Destiny --of the United States and his own celebrity. There was probably no German ethnic boosterism behind it, but it was Anheuser-Busch's commisioning and distribution of a painting entitled "Custer's Last Fight" that helped to ensure Custer was well-remembered among the drinking public, at least until Prohibition shut down the saloons.

    http://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/beer-in-ads-137-anheuser-buschs-custers-last-fight/

  98. @HA
    "But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them."


    Irony alert:


    By World War I, however, [Nietzsche] had acquired a reputation as an inspiration for right-wing German militarism. The reality was Nietzsche was an opponent of volkist pan-Germanism and advocated a nobiliary, trans-national pan-Europeanism incorporating the cultural-spiritual elite from all Western nations—including...Israel.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Nietzsche’s aphoristic works — which, by the way, is most of his output — are easily cherry picked for incendiary militaristic quotes, especially when those works had been bowdlerized by his sister.

    I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the idea that Nietzschean extracts were handed around to the troops.

    • Replies: @5371
    @SPMoore8

    It's nonsense, but that Bryan believed it is plausible.

  99. @IBC
    @SPMoore8

    Apparently, quite a few of the "Scots-Irish" were actually from the north of England.


    Today, Scotch-Irish is an Americanism almost unknown in England, Ireland or Scotland.[5] The term is somewhat unclear because some of the Scotch-Irish have little or no Scottish ancestry at all, as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England, and others still from Flanders, the German Palatinate, and France (such as the French Huguenot ancestors of Davy Crockett).[9] What united these different national groups was their common Calvinist beliefs,[10] and their separation from the established church (Church of England and Church of Ireland in this case). Nevertheless, the large Scottish element in the Plantation of Ulster gave the settlements a Scottish character.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American

    The article goes on to say that the Scots-Irish in America originally referred to themselves as "Irish" but started adding the "Scotch" label to distance themselves from the Irish Catholics who started arriving in large numbers later on.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Well, “some” is not the same as “quite a few”. In this country, “Scots Irish” is usually reserved for people from Ulster (and sometimes other parts of Ireland) who were Presbyterian, and the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of “Mc’s” and so on. On the other hand, as with the early Dutch, there was significant inputs from Swedes, Germans, Huguenots, etc. into the mix, if not before they came here, then pretty soon after they got off the boat.

    • Replies: @IBC
    @SPMoore8

    "...as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England,"


    the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of “Mc’s” and so on.

     

    Okay, but most of the Presbyterians went to Ireland as part of the Plantation of Ulster and many of those colonists (that's what they really were) came from the border region between England and Scotland. A majority of those names are unadorned:

    The historic riding surnames, as recorded by George MacDonald Fraser in The Steel Bonnets (1989),[14] are:

    East March
    Scotland: Hume, Trotter, Dixon, Bromfield, Craw, Cranston.
    England: Forster, Selby, Gray, Dunn.
    Middle March
    Scotland: Burn, Kerr, Young, Pringle, Davison, Gilchrist, Tait of East Teviotdale. Scott, Oliver, Turnbull, Rutherford of West Teviotdale. Armstrong, Croser, Elliot, Nixon, Douglas, Laidlaw, Turner, Henderson of Liddesdale.
    England: Anderson, Potts, Reed, Hall, Hedley of Redesdale. Charlton, Robson, Dodd, Milburn, Yarrow, Stapleton of Tynedale. Also Fenwick, Ogle, Heron, Witherington, Medford (later Mitford), Collingwood, Carnaby, Shaftoe, Ridley, Stokoe, Stamper, Wilkinson, Hunter, Thomson, Jamieson.
    West March
    Scotland: Bell, Irvine, Johnstone, Maxwell, Carlisle, Beattie, Little, Carruthers, Glendenning, Moffat.
    England: Graham, Hetherington, Musgrave, Storey, Lowther, Curwen, Salkeld, Dacre, Harden, Hodgson, Routledge, Tailor, Noble.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers#Border_.27names.27_and_clan_status

    Replies: @FUBAR007

  100. @ferd
    @Pat Casey

    Pat, that's an interesting idea about pre-statehood immigration. I'm an employee of a real-deal Lutheran Christian college that is German to the core of our heritage, and just this week I was bemoaning our lack of German identity to a colleague. The town of Garland, Nebraska was named "Germantown" before WWI.

    We don't even retain an institutional memory of the erasure of our German pride and cultural distinctives.

    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Pat Casey

    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.

    Germans have been coming rather steadily since the 17th century. The Dutch came in two distinct waves– to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.

    The former are not just culturally, but genetically assimilated. My Michigan grandmother had a Dutch maiden name, and I assumed she descended from the mid-1800s wave. But no, it turned out to be New Netherland. That left her, and me, an eighth or sixteenth as Dutch as I had
    imagined.

    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    @Reg Cæsar

    Col. Parker, as someone pointed out a while ago, was a Dutchman who no one recognized as such although he had come over as an adult and was widely thought to be a Southerner. I've met a couple of people who I thought had to be native born Americans and only in casual conversation or by accident found out were likewise Dutch immigrants. One of them, in fact, was teaching German and French in high school in north downstate Illinois-Galesburg, I think.

    In Illinois, by the way, the northernmost part of the state (and all of the top edge west of McHenry County) is called "downstate".

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Reg Cæsar


    The Dutch came in two distinct waves– to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.
    ...
    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.
     
    Interesting comment. I'm a product of that later wave, having grown up in Orange City, Iowa -- the neighbor and nemesis of Sioux Center, which Ferd mentioned above. My ancestors had all immigrated to the USA by around 1910 or so, with most arriving well before that. But I'm 100% Dutch -- not one of those new Dutch-Americans 100 years ago and more married outside the ingroup, and neither did their children or grandchildren. And I'm hardly unique; in Sioux County a significant proportion of the population remains pure Dutch, or at least close to it. So is this 'quick' assimilation?

    On the other hand, I do recall my grandparents telling me of some of their own parents' and grandparents' embarassment at not having learned English well enough to be good Americans, so I guess they were keen to fit in. And yet these isolated groups of Dutch immigrants really did maintain a coherent community and worldview -- one that's still going strong, actually.

    Why? Religion has a lot to do with it: the serious Reformed theology and ethic have held up pretty well. And maybe there were just few enough Dutch immigrants (especially in comparison to the Germans) that they felt a particular need to stick together.

    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism "yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .".

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @prosa123

  101. @IBC
    @timothy


    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish.
     
    Not quite fiction, but the cartoonist Thomas Nast was born in Germany. He was responsible for many (dare I say it?) iconic images in American culture such as Uncle Sam, the Democratic donkey, the Republican elephant, and of course, Santa Claus. He also penned many, very politically incorrect drawings of drunken Irishmen, predatory priests and the like, so his current place in the cartoon canon is somewhat clouded. (Although he also drew sympathetic depictions of Chinese people, American Indians, and Black Americans).

    Ub Iwerks, who helped create Mickey Mouse, and Rudolph Dirks, who created the long-running comic strip The Katzenjammer Kids, were also of German background.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Iwerks was Friesian.

    • Replies: @IBC
    @Reg Cæsar

    Oh, so the Friesians are losing credit for both the cow and the cartoonist? It looks like you might be right but there's hope for my statement because Iwerks' mother's name was Wagner and his father (the Frieisan) married her in Kansas City.

    Replies: @Ivy

  102. Pat Casey says:
    @ferd
    @Pat Casey

    Pat, that's an interesting idea about pre-statehood immigration. I'm an employee of a real-deal Lutheran Christian college that is German to the core of our heritage, and just this week I was bemoaning our lack of German identity to a colleague. The town of Garland, Nebraska was named "Germantown" before WWI.

    We don't even retain an institutional memory of the erasure of our German pride and cultural distinctives.

    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Pat Casey

    Your people have too much to forget for Western Civilization to survive without remembering. Between Hegel and Nietzsche and Heidegger, tragedy as a watchword among philosophers would be too cheap to mention. Teach your students words that accustom them to Goethe. And make them learn why nothing matters more than knowing when to quote him. When the mind swings by a grass blade the ant’s forefoot shall save you: Do not surrender perception. The next age will damn you.

    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    @Pat Casey

    Yikes. That was meant to be The next age will not be able to damn you.

  103. @Mark Minter
    Central Texas.

    Driving west on I-10 from Houston, you encounter the most remarkable transition in terrain and culture, actually the moment you cross the county line into Colorado County, maybe 10 miles east of Columbus. That is where the "west" begins and the big sky vistas of the west begin where you can see for miles and miles. And the German influence in Texas has its boundary.

    The people of Central Texas look a little down on the people nearer the coast as "Bayou Trash. Within the space of even a few hundred feet, everything changes. The fields are better maintained, the roads are better, the fences are even, maintained, orderly, there are no billboards, the yards and lots that you can see from the freeway are straight and organized. And it remains that way for for 200 by 200 mile square where Columbus is the SE corner.

    The hardest jobs I ever had were in Austin. As a teen, my bosses would work the shit out of you, and your peers expected you to keep up. That countryside in its native form is rugged. Mesquite laughs at an ax. And they cleared huge acreage of it, in some of the hottest, most humid weather in the world. I've been near the equator and Texas is hotter, that Texas for sure. Michener wrote in his novel Texas that there were 11,000 Mexicans in the state in 1900. And that land was cleared by those Germans and Bohemians that came as part of the land grant Santa Ana gave to Stephen F Austin. The Bergdahl, Woernke, and Schmidt girls married the Johnsons, Turners, Coles over time and those names are fading from Texas. But they are still there in the blood of Texans.

    Maybe those peaceful people went to Pennsylvania where the Deutsche became to Pennsylvania Dutch, but some other bunch came to Central Texas 'cause still even today, You Don't Mess With Texas.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous

    Germany wasn’t one country until after a lot of the people who came here from there were born. Even if it was, the contrast between different groups of Germans was huge, probably more so than groups of English. So that would make perfect sense.

    My company deals with a company in the San Antonio area and I deal with these people fairly regularly. I have people calling me from Boerne, New Braunfels (yeah, it’s “new” with a W), and Kerrville and some of those people are definite hardasses. I never had that with the Cincinnati Germans or the St. Louis Germans.

    Or maybe the heat drives them nutty.

  104. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @MC
    @SFG

    Not quite, but getting warmer...

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Goering? Heinrich Himmler only had one daughter who currently lives in the Netherlands, but he had siblings. One of his grandnieces, Katrin Himmler, married an Israeli Jew, but I think she lives in Germany. One of Dr. Josef Mengele’s grandsons lives in Los Angeles, but I’m not aware of any relatives in Ohio.

    • Replies: @MC
    @Anonymous

    Yes.

  105. I think Kirschbaum is probably underestimating the effect of religious sect upon the rate of German assimilation into the mainstream. I know several people of Catholic background who have German and Irish, or Italian ancestors and also several people of Lutheran background with German and Swedish or Norwegian connections. Actually, I wonder what role religion had in the political development of Germany itself since the country was roughly split in that respect. That may have encouraged German nationalists to seek a reflection of unity in the legendary past and perhaps to focus more on blood than creed.

    On an unrelated note: The first Secretary of the Treasury for the Confederacy, Christopher Memminger, was German-born. I don’t see any German names in Lincoln’s cabinet.

    One of the Lincoln assasination conspirators, George Atzerodt, was also originally from Germany. He was supposed to kill Andrew Johnson, but obviously never did. He was executed nevertheless.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @IBC

    George Atzerodt easily could have assassinated Andrew Johnson, who was staying unguarded at a widely known address, and in doing so would have precipitated a succession crisis. Fortunately, Atzerodt was a hopeless drunk and incapable of doing much of anything.

  106. @SPMoore8
    @HA

    Nietzsche's aphoristic works -- which, by the way, is most of his output -- are easily cherry picked for incendiary militaristic quotes, especially when those works had been bowdlerized by his sister.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the idea that Nietzschean extracts were handed around to the troops.

    Replies: @5371

    It’s nonsense, but that Bryan believed it is plausible.

  107. @The Z Blog
    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War. Someone brought up Wilson and he is a good example. Wilson was a borderland Scots-Irish, but aped the style of the old Yankees. In many respect Bill Clinton followed the same path. His rise in the '92 primary started in New Hampshire where he showed he would defend the Yankee cultural norms.

    German culture has largely been over run by Yankee culture on the one hand and the red neck hillbilly culture on the other. Pennsylvania and Ohio are good examples. You have the WASPy pockets that exert enormous influence, usually by harnessing the black vote. Everywhere else is downscale white.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War.

    Horse manure.

    With whippedcream.

    And a cherry on top.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Reg Cæsar


    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War.
     
    Horse manure.

    With whippedcream.

    And a cherry on top.
  108. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @yaqub the mad scientist
    I"m not sure if the Germans on the whole here were less militaristic, but they were definitely more leftist and/or "nice". The 1848 invasion into this country brought the first real taste of Continental leftisim into America. At least some of the intellectual strains that are sometimes attributed to the Ashkenazis who came a half century later really began with the German forty eighters, gentile and Jewish. Much like the Huguenot brain drain crippled France, Germany's loss of the "nice" guys changed the country irrevocably.

    August Willich , the great Civil War general, is a classic case: Prussian nobility, military training, intellectual Hegelian Communist, renounced his title and immigrated right before the war. Masterful war record, including successes at Shiloh and Missionary Ridge.

    I've read letters by German Union soldiers serving in the war to relatives back in Europe. They described the war as an almost holy cause.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @SFG

    German Jews are a subset of Ashkenazi Jews. The founding rabbis of the Ashkenazi community lived in the Rhineland. The East European Jewish communities were founded later, often by Jews who fled or were expelled from German, Austrian or Bohemian territory. The common language of the Eastern European Jews was Yiddish, which was a descendant of the medieval German Jews’ Judendeutsch (German written in Hebrew characters) with additional borrowings from Slavic languages and Hebrew.

    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    @Anonymous

    I know. What I"m referring to are the heavily Germanized Jews who made up the influx during the period. They culturally were way different from the bunch who came later. Paul Gottfried, among others, has made the distinction.

    Think Levi Strauss of jeans fame or a Heinrich Heine vs Masha Gessen or Emma Goldman.

  109. @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    Haha, no, much more infamous than the Bear, but there's another example.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    George Steinbrenner?

    • Replies: @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    No, Goering.

    Replies: @Flip

  110. @Reg Cæsar
    @The Z Blog


    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War.
     
    Horse manure.

    With whippedcream.

    And a cherry on top.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yankee America has dominated the United States since the Civil War.

    Horse manure.

    With whippedcream.

    And a cherry on top.

  111. @Reg Cæsar
    @ferd


    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.
     
    Germans have been coming rather steadily since the 17th century. The Dutch came in two distinct waves-- to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.

    The former are not just culturally, but genetically assimilated. My Michigan grandmother had a Dutch maiden name, and I assumed she descended from the mid-1800s wave. But no, it turned out to be New Netherland. That left her, and me, an eighth or sixteenth as Dutch as I had
    imagined.

    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @The Last Real Calvinist

    Col. Parker, as someone pointed out a while ago, was a Dutchman who no one recognized as such although he had come over as an adult and was widely thought to be a Southerner. I’ve met a couple of people who I thought had to be native born Americans and only in casual conversation or by accident found out were likewise Dutch immigrants. One of them, in fact, was teaching German and French in high school in north downstate Illinois-Galesburg, I think.

    In Illinois, by the way, the northernmost part of the state (and all of the top edge west of McHenry County) is called “downstate”.

  112. @SPMoore8
    @IBC

    Well, "some" is not the same as "quite a few". In this country, "Scots Irish" is usually reserved for people from Ulster (and sometimes other parts of Ireland) who were Presbyterian, and the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of "Mc's" and so on. On the other hand, as with the early Dutch, there was significant inputs from Swedes, Germans, Huguenots, etc. into the mix, if not before they came here, then pretty soon after they got off the boat.

    Replies: @IBC

    “…as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England,”

    the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of “Mc’s” and so on.

    Okay, but most of the Presbyterians went to Ireland as part of the Plantation of Ulster and many of those colonists (that’s what they really were) came from the border region between England and Scotland. A majority of those names are unadorned:

    The historic riding surnames, as recorded by George MacDonald Fraser in The Steel Bonnets (1989),[14] are:

    East March
    Scotland: Hume, Trotter, Dixon, Bromfield, Craw, Cranston.
    England: Forster, Selby, Gray, Dunn.
    Middle March
    Scotland: Burn, Kerr, Young, Pringle, Davison, Gilchrist, Tait of East Teviotdale. Scott, Oliver, Turnbull, Rutherford of West Teviotdale. Armstrong, Croser, Elliot, Nixon, Douglas, Laidlaw, Turner, Henderson of Liddesdale.
    England: Anderson, Potts, Reed, Hall, Hedley of Redesdale. Charlton, Robson, Dodd, Milburn, Yarrow, Stapleton of Tynedale. Also Fenwick, Ogle, Heron, Witherington, Medford (later Mitford), Collingwood, Carnaby, Shaftoe, Ridley, Stokoe, Stamper, Wilkinson, Hunter, Thomson, Jamieson.
    West March
    Scotland: Bell, Irvine, Johnstone, Maxwell, Carlisle, Beattie, Little, Carruthers, Glendenning, Moffat.
    England: Graham, Hetherington, Musgrave, Storey, Lowther, Curwen, Salkeld, Dacre, Harden, Hodgson, Routledge, Tailor, Noble.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers#Border_.27names.27_and_clan_status

    • Replies: @FUBAR007
    @IBC

    The Scots-Irish are probably best understood as a "frontier English" subculture, occupying the north end of an Anglo cultural continuum. While there was obviously some Scottish cultural contribution, they spoke English and had more in common culturally with the English than with, say, Scottish highlanders. The majority of them were only ever Irish in the sense that they spent a few generations in Ulster before they migrated to North America.

    Their self-identification as Irish or Scots-Irish exemplifies the peculiar habit the English, particularly in the middle- and lower-classes, have historically had of identifying more with their nationality, current or recent, than with their ethnicity. A Chinese person can be generations removed from immigration, not able to speak a lick of Mandarin or Cantonese, and have never set foot in China, but they're still ethnically Chinese. Cajuns and Quebecois--been in North America for centuries. Still ethnically French. But the English? Nope. One or two generations in the new land, and they're not English anymore. They're American or Australian or Canadian, etc. I've heard that, anymore, even in England itself, to self-identify as English simply means to identify as a legal resident of England.

  113. @SPMoore8
    @Zach

    Yes, indeed, not only were the Germans opposed to slavery but they also tended to have much more amicable relations with Native Americans. Most of the original Germans were sectarians of one kind or another, but they weren't all Amish by any means. Many of them blended in over time, and married out, over time. Come to think of it, the man who raised George Washington Carver was a German who lived in Missouri.

    I only wished to make the point that many German Americans have distinguished themselves for their martial skill, thus contradicting iSteve, and I went for the low hanging fruit, not even mentioning (inter alia) Norman Schwarzkopf, Chuck Yeager, Carl Spaatz, Elmo Zumwalt.

    Replies: @IBC

    Not trying to bash German-Americans, but I can’t resist mentioning George Armstrong Custer, who was of old-line German and probably Scots-Irish descent . I don’t think he actually hated American Indians, but he was a believer in Manifest Destiny –of the United States and his own celebrity. There was probably no German ethnic boosterism behind it, but it was Anheuser-Busch’s commisioning and distribution of a painting entitled “Custer’s Last Fight” that helped to ensure Custer was well-remembered among the drinking public, at least until Prohibition shut down the saloons.

    http://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/beer-in-ads-137-anheuser-buschs-custers-last-fight/

  114. @Anonymous
    @MC

    Goering? Heinrich Himmler only had one daughter who currently lives in the Netherlands, but he had siblings. One of his grandnieces, Katrin Himmler, married an Israeli Jew, but I think she lives in Germany. One of Dr. Josef Mengele's grandsons lives in Los Angeles, but I'm not aware of any relatives in Ohio.

    Replies: @MC

    Yes.

  115. @Steve Sailer
    @MC

    George Steinbrenner?

    Replies: @MC

    No, Goering.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @MC

    Are you sure about that? He only had a daughter and and reading about her doesn't suggest an Ohio connection.

    Replies: @MC

  116. The decline of all things German in the US is also linked to the rise of eastern Ashkenazis, who unlike previous well -off Western Ashkenazi Jews, weren’t from the Reich proper or Austria -Hungary, neither culturally German. Also, the Jewish love affair with Germany came to an end during the 1930’s to put it mildly.

  117. @Reg Cæsar
    @ferd


    I envy the Dutchies, who have retained some of their distinctiveness. Visit the small town Dutch utopias of Sioux Center, Iowa and Oostburg, Wisconsin.
     
    Germans have been coming rather steadily since the 17th century. The Dutch came in two distinct waves-- to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.

    The former are not just culturally, but genetically assimilated. My Michigan grandmother had a Dutch maiden name, and I assumed she descended from the mid-1800s wave. But no, it turned out to be New Netherland. That left her, and me, an eighth or sixteenth as Dutch as I had
    imagined.

    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @The Last Real Calvinist

    The Dutch came in two distinct waves– to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.

    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.

    Interesting comment. I’m a product of that later wave, having grown up in Orange City, Iowa — the neighbor and nemesis of Sioux Center, which Ferd mentioned above. My ancestors had all immigrated to the USA by around 1910 or so, with most arriving well before that. But I’m 100% Dutch — not one of those new Dutch-Americans 100 years ago and more married outside the ingroup, and neither did their children or grandchildren. And I’m hardly unique; in Sioux County a significant proportion of the population remains pure Dutch, or at least close to it. So is this ‘quick’ assimilation?

    On the other hand, I do recall my grandparents telling me of some of their own parents’ and grandparents’ embarassment at not having learned English well enough to be good Americans, so I guess they were keen to fit in. And yet these isolated groups of Dutch immigrants really did maintain a coherent community and worldview — one that’s still going strong, actually.

    Why? Religion has a lot to do with it: the serious Reformed theology and ethic have held up pretty well. And maybe there were just few enough Dutch immigrants (especially in comparison to the Germans) that they felt a particular need to stick together.

    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism “yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .”.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism “yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .”.

     

    Gah -- aphorism, not amphorism!

    Replies: @Ivy

    , @prosa123
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    A.fascinating aspect of Dutch culture is that as late as the 1930's there were still some people in the Hudson Valley who spoke Dutch as a first language, over 250 years after the end of significant Dutch immigration in the area.

  118. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Reg Cæsar


    The Dutch came in two distinct waves– to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.
    ...
    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.
     
    Interesting comment. I'm a product of that later wave, having grown up in Orange City, Iowa -- the neighbor and nemesis of Sioux Center, which Ferd mentioned above. My ancestors had all immigrated to the USA by around 1910 or so, with most arriving well before that. But I'm 100% Dutch -- not one of those new Dutch-Americans 100 years ago and more married outside the ingroup, and neither did their children or grandchildren. And I'm hardly unique; in Sioux County a significant proportion of the population remains pure Dutch, or at least close to it. So is this 'quick' assimilation?

    On the other hand, I do recall my grandparents telling me of some of their own parents' and grandparents' embarassment at not having learned English well enough to be good Americans, so I guess they were keen to fit in. And yet these isolated groups of Dutch immigrants really did maintain a coherent community and worldview -- one that's still going strong, actually.

    Why? Religion has a lot to do with it: the serious Reformed theology and ethic have held up pretty well. And maybe there were just few enough Dutch immigrants (especially in comparison to the Germans) that they felt a particular need to stick together.

    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism "yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .".

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @prosa123

    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism “yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .”.

    Gah — aphorism, not amphorism!

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Freudian slip, as the Dutch have been thin-skinned about the Deutsch.
    They have to dig up an amphora or two every so often from the below sea level storage to reminisce about all things Dutch like wooden shoes. /sarc

  119. But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them.

    The other thing officially issued to the troops was the Gospel of John.

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in the The Gulag Archipelago says German women were much sought after as wives in the communities of ex prisoners.

    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump’s mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald’s mother was German. A volatile combination!

    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    @Sean

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Not so sure on that one. The left co-opted Nietzsche largely after that period. Granted, there were some socialists beforehand who adopted him, but I don't know how many of them could truly be called leftists. Jack London, Mencken, and Shaw don't clearly fit such categories.

    Allan Bloom's "The Nietzscheanization of the Left and Vice Versa" is a reasonable take on the subject.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Sean


    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump’s mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald’s mother was German. A volatile combination!

     

    Another energetic German-Scottish mix was Ethel Merman. She shortened it from Zimmerman.

    Replies: @Flip

  120. @Anonymous
    @yaqub the mad scientist

    German Jews are a subset of Ashkenazi Jews. The founding rabbis of the Ashkenazi community lived in the Rhineland. The East European Jewish communities were founded later, often by Jews who fled or were expelled from German, Austrian or Bohemian territory. The common language of the Eastern European Jews was Yiddish, which was a descendant of the medieval German Jews' Judendeutsch (German written in Hebrew characters) with additional borrowings from Slavic languages and Hebrew.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

    I know. What I”m referring to are the heavily Germanized Jews who made up the influx during the period. They culturally were way different from the bunch who came later. Paul Gottfried, among others, has made the distinction.

    Think Levi Strauss of jeans fame or a Heinrich Heine vs Masha Gessen or Emma Goldman.

  121. @iSteveFan
    @Sam Haysom


    , but other than Chrysler there were very few German names in the Second Industrial revolution and the early age of automation and electricity.
     
    What about Westinghouse? Electricity was sort of his thing.

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    Replies: @jack o'fire

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    Jobs was adopted, he was of Syrian ancestry. Much like Germany adopting Syrians today.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @jack o'fire

    Steve Jobs' birth mother, Joanne Schieble, was of German ancestry via Wisconsin.

  122. @timothy
    Theodore Dreiser was arguably the most important American novelist of the early 20th century, and his somewhat strained relationship with English sentence structure might've come from his education in German-language schools.

    Here's a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn't English or Scotch-Irish. I'm not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers. (I suppose they were too busy laying the foundations of our superpowerdom, just like their kinfolk back in the homeland. American Century? More like the German Century.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Sam Haysom, @IBC, @Peter Akuleyev

    Here’s a puzzler: name a major American writer of fiction before Dreiser whose last name wasn’t English or Scotch-Irish. I’m not sure there is one, which would mean that German-Americans were underperforming culturally relative to their numbers.

    Not really. I would argue that German culture in general has been a pretty mediocre producer of fiction compared to the English, French or Russian traditions. Germans are good at poetry and philosophy. Much of the best fiction in German was produced by Austrian Jews (Kafka, Roth). Mann, Hesse, Grass and co. are good, but look pretty shaky next to say Austen, Dickens, Waugh, Joyce, Forster, Hardy, etc.

  123. @Jimbob
    What is the most American of holidays--other than Thanksgiving--if not the Fourth of July? A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all. Lose two world wars and the overt traces of German social identities get erased. Oh and where did the model of the pride of U.S. higher education come from--forget the thin veneer of Oxbridge on Harvard's ivy-covered walls--at its heart is the German research university. And when Ben Franklin was worried about English being supplanted as the dominant language in Pennsylvania was he worried about Spanish-speaking immigrants? I don't think so.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all.

    You are right. American folk culture is far more Germanic than most Americans realize. It is interesting how few English traditional foods and folk traditions live in US culture – we don’t do maypoles in the US or pantomimes, we don’t eat sausage rolls or puddings, we don’t drink flat ale. We do eat German style brats and frankfurters, even with sauerkraut, the most popular beer style is lager, and we put up German style fir trees for Christmas.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Peter Akuleyev

    American GIs in Britain during WW2 were distraught at the quality and warmth of the beer.

    , @Brutusale
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Where I live, lager is in a dead heat with IPAs now.

    And we all know who invented the IPA.

  124. @anowow
    @Bill P

    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US. They were much more into the ethnic grievance/victimization than the Germans were. NINA signs are part of this mythology- Ted Kennedy claimed to have seen them! They practised ethnic nepotism in police departments.

    The Democratic party is in may ways an Irish creation.

    Replies: @Bill P

    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US.

    It’s been 50 years since the Irish were a major force in national politics. Have things improved much since then?

    • Replies: @anowow
    @Bill P

    But the seeds the Irish sowed have born fruit in many ways.

    Including, but not limited to, the following.

    Fifty years, about the age of the Hart-Cellar-Kennedy immigration law, a product of two Irishmen.


    They sure showed them WASPS!

  125. @MC
    We still have pockets where German-American identity is strong. Columbus, Ohio has a pretty obvious German bent (obsession with beer, well-known German neighborhoods and restaurants, massive Oktoberfest and Christmas celebrations, half of everyone is surnamed Miller).

    I even went to high school there with the descendants of a certain infamous German...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @SFG, @Cincinnatus

    Yes, Cincinnati is another example. The 18th Century influx of German immigrants enriched the growing cities of the time, forming the German Triangle – Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and St Louis. Not a coincidence they became the centers of American brewing. Pre-WWI, it had 3 German language daily newspapers, and 7,000 pubs – almost one per city block. Nowadays, 50% of the population claims German heritage.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Cincinnatus

    And Cincinnati was a center of Reform Judaism.

    Replies: @Wizard of Oz

  126. @Sean

    But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them.
     
    The other thing officially issued to the troops was the Gospel of John.

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in the The Gulag Archipelago says German women were much sought after as wives in the communities of ex prisoners.

    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump's mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald's mother was German. A volatile combination!

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist, @Reg Cæsar

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Not so sure on that one. The left co-opted Nietzsche largely after that period. Granted, there were some socialists beforehand who adopted him, but I don’t know how many of them could truly be called leftists. Jack London, Mencken, and Shaw don’t clearly fit such categories.

    Allan Bloom’s “The Nietzscheanization of the Left and Vice Versa” is a reasonable take on the subject.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @yaqub the mad scientist


    Philosophers who fellow-traveled with the Nazis often made kind references to his thought. Yet recent scholarship shows that Nietzsche found not only Nazi admirers but also socialist and leftist ones. In Nietzsche in German Politics and Society 1890-1918 (1983), the British Professor R. Hinton Thomas demonstrates the close relationship between Nietzsche and German socialism. Thomas deals with Nietzsche’s impact in Imperial Germany on social democratic circles, on anarchists and feminists, and on the youth movement. This produced, on balance more resolute enemies of the Third Reich than Nazi cadres. Thomas shows that Nietzsche helped shape a libertarian ideology during the rise of the German social democratic movement.
     
  127. @Cincinnatus
    @MC

    Yes, Cincinnati is another example. The 18th Century influx of German immigrants enriched the growing cities of the time, forming the German Triangle - Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and St Louis. Not a coincidence they became the centers of American brewing. Pre-WWI, it had 3 German language daily newspapers, and 7,000 pubs - almost one per city block. Nowadays, 50% of the population claims German heritage.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    And Cincinnati was a center of Reform Judaism.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    @Steve Sailer

    How did Germans and Ashkenazi Jews relate in 19th and 20th century America, especially socially and culturally? Was it noticeably different from Anglo attitudes? E.g. was there any difference between Anglos and Teutons when it came to curbing the rising number of Jews in the Ivies?

    And how did those relations change over the 20s and 30s?

    Was the suppression or hiding of German-American identity and culture as a result of WW1 a factor in Ashkenazi Jews becoming the interpreters and portrayors of middle and popular American culture and even identity via Hollywood?

    Was there a distinctive response of German-Americans to the Nazi policies and actions against Jews from Hitler's becoming Chancellor?

  128. @SFG
    @Sam Haysom

    Underachievement? I agree they haven't been clogging the entering class at Harvard, but you could hardly accuse German-Americans of underachievement. They're easily ahead of NAMs, and most white ethnics such as Irish, Italians, and Poles... and as Sam Haysom said, the German genius for organization did play a huge role in the industrialization of America.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @AP

    List of per capita income by ethnicity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income_in_the_United_States_by_ancestry

    Germans are fairly low down the list, #37, lower than British, most Scandinavians, and most Eastern Europeans, and only slightly higher than traditionally “poor” whites such as Italians, Irish, and French Canadians.

  129. German history is one of constantly being overrun by invaders, interspersed with long periods of feudal quarreling.

    I think this history helps explain one of its consequences: historically constantly required to submit to invaders, German women are highly likely to out marry compared to every other European group.

    What happened to German Culture in America?

    It became Kardashians. The mom, Kris Jenner, is mostly German but lists 8-10 different ethnicities as her heritage. (In other words, the German women in her family tree fucked everybody else but Germans). And try to form, she married an Armenian, a transsexual, and dates African Americans. True to form, anytime you meet a white American who says something like “I’m part Irish, Scottish, Swedish, German, Czech, Polish, Italian and Natuve American.”. You can bet that this person’s heritage is large part German.

    Even Hitler’s German identity pro Aryan nonsense could be understood as a way to DHV the German male against German women who were otherwise likely to fuck literally anybody else.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Rotten

    This combination of deep historical knowledge and sound reasoning leaves one speechless. Only on the internet ...

  130. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @iSteveFan

    It's very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It's much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

    Replies: @iSteveFan, @Anonymous

    Well, it would be pretty easy for a lot of the Middle Easterners to claim they’re from the European side of the Mediterranean. But that’s beside the point, really. No one ever expected them to lie about their origin, only to cut the woe is me islamophobia crap and to be truly moderate (a delusional expectation of its own, no such thing for someone who truly believes in the Koran).

    • Replies: @anon
    @Anonymous

    Muslim Americans before 9-11 were somewhat pathetic in their attempts to be part of the establishment. Focused on being culturally conservative, business oriented, and generally just brown nosing authority. Back in 2000, as a left wing atheist, I found the attitudes of my numerous golf- playing "Muslims for Bush " family to be risible, and a little sad.

    9-11 knocked the stuffing out of that. White americans won't do "Abrahamic faith" anymore. After a period of being pretty confused ('why won't the local baptist church do a joint activity with us anymore?), the old conservatives mostly keep their mouths shut now.

    On the other hand, their post 9-11 children are growing up as democrats, and that is where the community will probably stay for a generation (or until the war ends).

    Replies: @SFG

  131. @Peter Akuleyev
    @Jimbob


    A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all.
     
    You are right. American folk culture is far more Germanic than most Americans realize. It is interesting how few English traditional foods and folk traditions live in US culture - we don't do maypoles in the US or pantomimes, we don't eat sausage rolls or puddings, we don't drink flat ale. We do eat German style brats and frankfurters, even with sauerkraut, the most popular beer style is lager, and we put up German style fir trees for Christmas.

    Replies: @Sean, @Brutusale

    American GIs in Britain during WW2 were distraught at the quality and warmth of the beer.

  132. @yaqub the mad scientist
    @Sean

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Not so sure on that one. The left co-opted Nietzsche largely after that period. Granted, there were some socialists beforehand who adopted him, but I don't know how many of them could truly be called leftists. Jack London, Mencken, and Shaw don't clearly fit such categories.

    Allan Bloom's "The Nietzscheanization of the Left and Vice Versa" is a reasonable take on the subject.

    Replies: @Sean

    Philosophers who fellow-traveled with the Nazis often made kind references to his thought. Yet recent scholarship shows that Nietzsche found not only Nazi admirers but also socialist and leftist ones. In Nietzsche in German Politics and Society 1890-1918 (1983), the British Professor R. Hinton Thomas demonstrates the close relationship between Nietzsche and German socialism. Thomas deals with Nietzsche’s impact in Imperial Germany on social democratic circles, on anarchists and feminists, and on the youth movement. This produced, on balance more resolute enemies of the Third Reich than Nazi cadres. Thomas shows that Nietzsche helped shape a libertarian ideology during the rise of the German social democratic movement.

  133. @IBC
    @SPMoore8

    "...as a large number of dissenter families had also been transplanted to Ulster from northern England. Smaller numbers of migrants also came from Wales and the southeast of England,"


    the vast majority of these have the typical Scottish (or Irish) surname structure, with a lot of “Mc’s” and so on.

     

    Okay, but most of the Presbyterians went to Ireland as part of the Plantation of Ulster and many of those colonists (that's what they really were) came from the border region between England and Scotland. A majority of those names are unadorned:

    The historic riding surnames, as recorded by George MacDonald Fraser in The Steel Bonnets (1989),[14] are:

    East March
    Scotland: Hume, Trotter, Dixon, Bromfield, Craw, Cranston.
    England: Forster, Selby, Gray, Dunn.
    Middle March
    Scotland: Burn, Kerr, Young, Pringle, Davison, Gilchrist, Tait of East Teviotdale. Scott, Oliver, Turnbull, Rutherford of West Teviotdale. Armstrong, Croser, Elliot, Nixon, Douglas, Laidlaw, Turner, Henderson of Liddesdale.
    England: Anderson, Potts, Reed, Hall, Hedley of Redesdale. Charlton, Robson, Dodd, Milburn, Yarrow, Stapleton of Tynedale. Also Fenwick, Ogle, Heron, Witherington, Medford (later Mitford), Collingwood, Carnaby, Shaftoe, Ridley, Stokoe, Stamper, Wilkinson, Hunter, Thomson, Jamieson.
    West March
    Scotland: Bell, Irvine, Johnstone, Maxwell, Carlisle, Beattie, Little, Carruthers, Glendenning, Moffat.
    England: Graham, Hetherington, Musgrave, Storey, Lowther, Curwen, Salkeld, Dacre, Harden, Hodgson, Routledge, Tailor, Noble.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers#Border_.27names.27_and_clan_status

    Replies: @FUBAR007

    The Scots-Irish are probably best understood as a “frontier English” subculture, occupying the north end of an Anglo cultural continuum. While there was obviously some Scottish cultural contribution, they spoke English and had more in common culturally with the English than with, say, Scottish highlanders. The majority of them were only ever Irish in the sense that they spent a few generations in Ulster before they migrated to North America.

    Their self-identification as Irish or Scots-Irish exemplifies the peculiar habit the English, particularly in the middle- and lower-classes, have historically had of identifying more with their nationality, current or recent, than with their ethnicity. A Chinese person can be generations removed from immigration, not able to speak a lick of Mandarin or Cantonese, and have never set foot in China, but they’re still ethnically Chinese. Cajuns and Quebecois–been in North America for centuries. Still ethnically French. But the English? Nope. One or two generations in the new land, and they’re not English anymore. They’re American or Australian or Canadian, etc. I’ve heard that, anymore, even in England itself, to self-identify as English simply means to identify as a legal resident of England.

  134. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism “yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .”.

     

    Gah -- aphorism, not amphorism!

    Replies: @Ivy

    Freudian slip, as the Dutch have been thin-skinned about the Deutsch.
    They have to dig up an amphora or two every so often from the below sea level storage to reminisce about all things Dutch like wooden shoes. /sarc

  135. @Bill P
    @anowow


    Bill P, are you kidding? The Irish have been a very political group and often not in good ways. They basically invented machine politics. They were some of the first expat ethnic political action groups/lobbies, including scheming about plans for the homeland from the safety of the US.
     
    It's been 50 years since the Irish were a major force in national politics. Have things improved much since then?

    Replies: @anowow

    But the seeds the Irish sowed have born fruit in many ways.

    Including, but not limited to, the following.

    Fifty years, about the age of the Hart-Cellar-Kennedy immigration law, a product of two Irishmen.

    They sure showed them WASPS!

  136. I don’t know if it’s historically accurate or not, but I’ve always thought of German-Americans as kind of the “grist” of America’s white population, meaning they blended better into an English speaking American population without bringing as much of their old culture into the mix. They weren’t quite as connected to their European roots as Irish, Italian, Czech or Polish immigrants were. Yes, there were the bunds, but it seems those appealed more to first or second generation Germans, and the Germans who arrived later in America’s history.

    The earlier Scotch Irish were kind of like this, bringing few loyalties to their old country into the New World. The Scotch-Irish, however, stayed fairly connected to their culture in remote frontier areas. Actually, in some areas of the midwest, Germans did, too.

    • Replies: @notsaying
    @J1234

    I think the German-UK mix people have to be the largest group of Anglos in America.

    When you think of how many of both groups came here; how long they were the two biggest ethnic groups and that there's a lot of places where they've mixed for over well 100 years, they don't seem to have a lot of competition.

    Yes there were some places that had English people but not a lot of Germans or Germans without a lot of English, but let's face it. Once the Germans learned English, they absolutely fit in with the English people who came first. They looked the same and they shared the WASP values as much as people from any two different countries who were not neighbors could be expected to.

    While German America may have faded in many places, the heritage is still there, mixed in with the people from the UK.

  137. @Reg Cæsar
    @IBC

    Iwerks was Friesian.

    Replies: @IBC

    Oh, so the Friesians are losing credit for both the cow and the cartoonist? It looks like you might be right but there’s hope for my statement because Iwerks’ mother’s name was Wagner and his father (the Frieisan) married her in Kansas City.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @IBC

    Fries' don't get no respect. Germans make jokes about Ost-Frieslanders the way that non-PC Americans made jokes about various inhabitants. That varied by region, YMMV, but some were sure funny once upon a time.

  138. “since everybody assumed that votes for women meant Prohibition.” – All of the prohibition propaganda posters feature women exclusively.

  139. @Marty
    For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder's. For decades I went there. just for the sauerbraten. Last year they closed for a few months to remodel. When they reopned - still called Schroeder's but sauerbraten no longer on the menu.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @stillCARealist, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    “For over a hundred years, San Francisco had a German restaurant, in the financial district, called Schroeder’s.”

    I ate there in probably 2004, in order to see a presentation by dissident historian David Irving. Cool place; good food.

  140. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    more underachievers:

    Frederick Brant Rentschler (and his brother, who ran a forerunner of Citibank)
    Henry Clay Frick
    Herbert Hoover
    Dwight Eisenhower

    and the man of the moment:
    John Boehner

    A thought: many of predominantly German ancestry are introverted and not particularly interested in having names splashed in the media. Moreover, today’s methods of teaching in the US , with noisy classrooms and endless group work, are contrary any Germanic sense of order.

  141. @D. K.
    "Trump" was not actually a German name:

    "[Fred] Trump's father Friedrich Drumpf immigrated to New York City in 1885 and worked as a barber for six years, becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1892 [...] under the Anglicized name Frederick Trump after moving to Seattle, Washington in 1891. The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush." [per Wikipedia.org]

    Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe, @sure thing

    “The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush.”

    So, Donald Trump is descended from an Al Swearengen-type, who used to also get into Klan-inspired brawls with the NYPD?!?

    Forget the stupid elections – WE NEED TO MAKE THIS MAN OUR PRESIDENT IMMEDIATELY!!!

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    No, we don't. He'll get into stupid wars, and more Americans will get killed over nothing.

  142. Irish and Italian cultures are about the only European cultures that still have much viability in the United States and there are special reasons in each case. Irish culture persists because it’s fun, St. Patrick’s Day and leprechauns and shamrocks and all that, while Italian culture is helped by the immense popularity of Italian cuisine. With the exception of Oktoberfest there’s nothing particularly fun about German culture, and German cuisine is pretty much out of touch with modern preferences.

  143. @The most deplorable one
    @Olorin


    Culture is what shapes genome at the social level. If you don’t remember your culture, your genome is probably going to go the way of spats and buggy whips.
     
    Which type of 'culture' are you talking about? Most 'culture' changes too quickly to have such a selective effect.

    Read up on truncation selection. Greg Cochran has some stuff on it. If I recall, he estimates that it takes something of the order of 30 generations to change one attribute (violence-proneness) by removing the most violent one or two percent each year.

    The sorts of cultural things that can have an effect on the gene pool are long lived cultural substrates, like religion.

    The Soviets tried for three generations to eliminate Orthodox Christianity in Russia and it has made a comeback after the break up of the USSR, and I suspect that that is because Orthodox Christianity has selected for people to be more amenable to Orthodox Christianity over the approximately 1,000 years that it has been a force in Russia and surrounds.

    Even language changes too quickly so the things that language selects for are likely to be:

    1. The physical attributes necessary for language production, including breathing control and brain structures

    2. The ability to absorb the language being spoken around you at birth.

    Even claims that certain groups are adapted to handling tonal languages seem unlikely, since there is strong evidence that Chinese languages, for example, were non tonal (in their current sense) about two thousand years ago.

    Replies: @athEIst

    The Soviets tried for three generations to eliminate Orthodox Christianity in Russia and it has made a comeback after the break up of the USSR.
    And HOW! I came across PRAVDA about 10 years ago. The former TRUTH of the USSR was all full of PRO-religion articles.
    p.s. not a good thing

  144. @IBC
    I think Kirschbaum is probably underestimating the effect of religious sect upon the rate of German assimilation into the mainstream. I know several people of Catholic background who have German and Irish, or Italian ancestors and also several people of Lutheran background with German and Swedish or Norwegian connections. Actually, I wonder what role religion had in the political development of Germany itself since the country was roughly split in that respect. That may have encouraged German nationalists to seek a reflection of unity in the legendary past and perhaps to focus more on blood than creed.

    On an unrelated note: The first Secretary of the Treasury for the Confederacy, Christopher Memminger, was German-born. I don't see any German names in Lincoln's cabinet.

    One of the Lincoln assasination conspirators, George Atzerodt, was also originally from Germany. He was supposed to kill Andrew Johnson, but obviously never did. He was executed nevertheless.

    Replies: @prosa123

    George Atzerodt easily could have assassinated Andrew Johnson, who was staying unguarded at a widely known address, and in doing so would have precipitated a succession crisis. Fortunately, Atzerodt was a hopeless drunk and incapable of doing much of anything.

  145. @iSteveFan
    It is interesting to contrast the treatment of German-Americans after US entry into WW1 with the treatment of Mohammedans after 9-11. It is also interesting to see that German-Americans responded to this treatment by assimilating even further into American culture while Muslims responded to their post 9-11 treatment by doubling down on their uniqueness.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Anonymous, @JohnnyGeo, @Druid

    Is that true of the average Muslim American, as opposed to, say, clock-boy’s father? How would we know?

  146. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Reg Cæsar


    The Dutch came in two distinct waves– to their own New Netherland (where they were outnumbered), and later in the 19th century to Michigan and Iowa.
    ...
    That later group, though, assimilated as quickly as any. Only the Danes come as close.
     
    Interesting comment. I'm a product of that later wave, having grown up in Orange City, Iowa -- the neighbor and nemesis of Sioux Center, which Ferd mentioned above. My ancestors had all immigrated to the USA by around 1910 or so, with most arriving well before that. But I'm 100% Dutch -- not one of those new Dutch-Americans 100 years ago and more married outside the ingroup, and neither did their children or grandchildren. And I'm hardly unique; in Sioux County a significant proportion of the population remains pure Dutch, or at least close to it. So is this 'quick' assimilation?

    On the other hand, I do recall my grandparents telling me of some of their own parents' and grandparents' embarassment at not having learned English well enough to be good Americans, so I guess they were keen to fit in. And yet these isolated groups of Dutch immigrants really did maintain a coherent community and worldview -- one that's still going strong, actually.

    Why? Religion has a lot to do with it: the serious Reformed theology and ethic have held up pretty well. And maybe there were just few enough Dutch immigrants (especially in comparison to the Germans) that they felt a particular need to stick together.

    Anyway, most current Dutch Americans are pretty pleased with our ethnic distinctiveness, summed up in the immortal amphorism "yer not much if yer not Dutch . . .".

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @prosa123

    A.fascinating aspect of Dutch culture is that as late as the 1930’s there were still some people in the Hudson Valley who spoke Dutch as a first language, over 250 years after the end of significant Dutch immigration in the area.

  147. @IBC
    @Reg Cæsar

    Oh, so the Friesians are losing credit for both the cow and the cartoonist? It looks like you might be right but there's hope for my statement because Iwerks' mother's name was Wagner and his father (the Frieisan) married her in Kansas City.

    Replies: @Ivy

    Fries’ don’t get no respect. Germans make jokes about Ost-Frieslanders the way that non-PC Americans made jokes about various inhabitants. That varied by region, YMMV, but some were sure funny once upon a time.

  148. @jack o'fire
    @iSteveFan

    Also, though this is outside your date range, you have to give a shout out to Steve Jobs.

    Jobs was adopted, he was of Syrian ancestry. Much like Germany adopting Syrians today.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Steve Jobs’ birth mother, Joanne Schieble, was of German ancestry via Wisconsin.

  149. A whole article about German-American identity without mentioning Hitler or WW2?

    I don’t know whether to say “Bravo!” or scold you for obviously and deliberately missing the obvious.

    But I do recall that there may be some non-ww2 reasons about the German-American ethnic collapse:

    1) A Tree Grows in Brooklyn (pub. 1943), author Betty Smith wrote it as a roman a clef memoir of her time growing up in Brooklyn between the 1900 and 1920. In the book, her neighborhoods have German enclaves, Irish enclaves, and Jewish and Italian enclaves. The main character/narrator is half-German and half-Irish—–even though Betty Smith was all German. In the novel, Smith makes reference to Germans changing their names in embarrassment of the Kaiser/WW1, and the Germans singing German ethnic songs being deliberately drowned out by the Irish. She also depicts a German grandfather being almost completely distant from his progeny, symbolically severing their connection to their German roots.

    So Smith did document some of the WW1 turning of Germans against their own heritage. Unless she was retconning the ww2 turn on the German ethnicity to her time in ww1.

    Also, it seemed Smith had either a crush on an Irish boy or else admired their over-the-top ethnic pride. The father of the main character is an Irish man, a sweet-singing tenor whose terrible alcoholism nearly ruins the family, but who is otherwise an absolute wonderful and perfect loving father (and, as is often noted by the other characters in the novel, he’s the best looking man around, and the most talented singer). For Smith to make herself part-Irish in remembrance is striking.

    2) Victor’s justice. Let’s not forget the Jewish-Hollywooders took extreme joy in every post ww2 year at always making the Germans the bad guys in every movie—-including to today. Punish the Germans for the Holocaust. Once, in plays and movies a “German” accent denoted intelligence (this is why all the old “mad scientists” and doctors in movies had German accent—it made them seem smarter), today a German accent in film means you sound like the bad guy. All deliberate beating down of the ethnicity.

    3) Ironically, patriotism. Many Germans deliberately forwent their ethnicity to assimilate. For a long time, it was de riguer for Americans to demand that immigrants lose all of their ethnic identity before they became fully “American.” This is why Mardi Gras parades by French-Candadian immigrants were banned in New England, and why Indian Schools (for Native Americans) required their hair to be cut, and ethnic languages were banned. The Irish mass immigration was a sticking point in all this—not only did the Irish not forgo their old ethnic pride, they reinforced it to this day. (probably due to the large numbers of Irish immigrants, creating a mass too large to enforce the old assimilation rules on them, and the over-the-top ethnic Irish pride heretofore mentioned)

    Steve, are you ever going to do a series on the mass-Irish immigration of the 19th Century? I think it would be interesting to note the Irish slums, crime rates, and pushing out of old inhabitants. I’m part-Irish myself, but I’d love to hear it from your pen. The effect of such mass immigration couldn’t have been a net positive at the time.

    • Replies: @James Kabala
    @whorefinder

    Before there was World War II, much of this had been done already by World War I.

  150. @Pat Casey
    Much of German immigration to America occurred before Germany was a state. That's likely a significant factor in the lack of institutional German pride among German-Americans. There wasn't much for anti-German American sentiment to sunder in the first place; Mencken's German pride was an aberration that way. I definitely don't think pro-German sentiment should be overestimated as a factor for keeping America out of WWI. Americans simply weren't interested in fighting wars there was no good reason for them to fight (hard as it is to conceive now I suppose). The most vocal and prominent anti-war voices in America before both world wars were not hardly German themselves, an inverse analogy to the way the pro-war voices today are always Jewish Americans.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @ferd, @Dave Pinsen, @Hibernian

    Also, the carnage of the Civil War was still within living memory.

  151. @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    No, Goering.

    Replies: @Flip

    Are you sure about that? He only had a daughter and and reading about her doesn’t suggest an Ohio connection.

    • Replies: @MC
    @Flip

    They said "descendants," although they could have been non-lineal relatives. The surname matched. Possible they were pulling my leg too, but they didn't bring it up until I asked, and weren't really joking types.

    Replies: @SFG

  152. @J1234
    I don't know if it's historically accurate or not, but I've always thought of German-Americans as kind of the "grist" of America's white population, meaning they blended better into an English speaking American population without bringing as much of their old culture into the mix. They weren't quite as connected to their European roots as Irish, Italian, Czech or Polish immigrants were. Yes, there were the bunds, but it seems those appealed more to first or second generation Germans, and the Germans who arrived later in America's history.

    The earlier Scotch Irish were kind of like this, bringing few loyalties to their old country into the New World. The Scotch-Irish, however, stayed fairly connected to their culture in remote frontier areas. Actually, in some areas of the midwest, Germans did, too.

    Replies: @notsaying

    I think the German-UK mix people have to be the largest group of Anglos in America.

    When you think of how many of both groups came here; how long they were the two biggest ethnic groups and that there’s a lot of places where they’ve mixed for over well 100 years, they don’t seem to have a lot of competition.

    Yes there were some places that had English people but not a lot of Germans or Germans without a lot of English, but let’s face it. Once the Germans learned English, they absolutely fit in with the English people who came first. They looked the same and they shared the WASP values as much as people from any two different countries who were not neighbors could be expected to.

    While German America may have faded in many places, the heritage is still there, mixed in with the people from the UK.

  153. @Flip
    @MC

    Are you sure about that? He only had a daughter and and reading about her doesn't suggest an Ohio connection.

    Replies: @MC

    They said “descendants,” although they could have been non-lineal relatives. The surname matched. Possible they were pulling my leg too, but they didn’t bring it up until I asked, and weren’t really joking types.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @MC

    Were they overweight?

    Replies: @MC

  154. @Bill P
    German Americans are working too hard to be political. So are Irish Americans, Slavic Americans and Italian Americans. And, to be fair, even a lot of Hispanic Americans. Most British Americans today, BTW, are indistinguishable from the aforementioned in their prospects and lives.

    Somebody has to pay the taxes. We can't all be 1%er Anglo-Jewish high fliers or black screw-ups. And they won't let us, either. Compare welfare awards of whites vs. blacks or Hispanics. Whites are denied social services/benefits at a much higher rate than browns. It's a Democrat thing.

    For white ethnics, it's sink or swim. For browns, it's like Sweden. People would be surprised to learn how many unobtrusive, homeless, dead broke white folks there are out there. Homeless in Northern Minnesota? You betcha! Maine, Alaska, Washington state, Montana, yah sure.

    Think there's public housing available in NY City for these folks? Nope, not a chance.

    Replies: @anowow, @unpc downunder

    “Somebody has to pay the taxes. We can’t all be 1%er Anglo-Jewish high fliers or black screw-ups. And they won’t let us, either. Compare welfare awards of whites vs. blacks or Hispanics.”

    I’ve heard many people in Australia and NZ say that welfare offices in white rural areas are much stricter than they are in urban multicultural areas. In whitebread small cities and towns welfare offices are much more aggressive about getting people in jobs and are more likely to cut benefits if people don’t tow the line.

    This difference probably comes down to fear – either fear of being accussed of racism, or fear of a crazed Maori , Aboriginal or Muslim guy going postal if his benefit is cut off.

  155. @Pat Casey
    Much of German immigration to America occurred before Germany was a state. That's likely a significant factor in the lack of institutional German pride among German-Americans. There wasn't much for anti-German American sentiment to sunder in the first place; Mencken's German pride was an aberration that way. I definitely don't think pro-German sentiment should be overestimated as a factor for keeping America out of WWI. Americans simply weren't interested in fighting wars there was no good reason for them to fight (hard as it is to conceive now I suppose). The most vocal and prominent anti-war voices in America before both world wars were not hardly German themselves, an inverse analogy to the way the pro-war voices today are always Jewish Americans.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @ferd, @Dave Pinsen, @Hibernian

    Isolationism was heavily supported by the Germans and the Irish.

  156. @Pat Casey
    @ferd

    Your people have too much to forget for Western Civilization to survive without remembering. Between Hegel and Nietzsche and Heidegger, tragedy as a watchword among philosophers would be too cheap to mention. Teach your students words that accustom them to Goethe. And make them learn why nothing matters more than knowing when to quote him. When the mind swings by a grass blade the ant's forefoot shall save you: Do not surrender perception. The next age will damn you.

    Replies: @Pat Casey

    Yikes. That was meant to be The next age will not be able to damn you.

  157. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    Well, it would be pretty easy for a lot of the Middle Easterners to claim they're from the European side of the Mediterranean. But that's beside the point, really. No one ever expected them to lie about their origin, only to cut the woe is me islamophobia crap and to be truly moderate (a delusional expectation of its own, no such thing for someone who truly believes in the Koran).

    Replies: @anon

    Muslim Americans before 9-11 were somewhat pathetic in their attempts to be part of the establishment. Focused on being culturally conservative, business oriented, and generally just brown nosing authority. Back in 2000, as a left wing atheist, I found the attitudes of my numerous golf- playing “Muslims for Bush ” family to be risible, and a little sad.

    9-11 knocked the stuffing out of that. White americans won’t do “Abrahamic faith” anymore. After a period of being pretty confused (‘why won’t the local baptist church do a joint activity with us anymore?), the old conservatives mostly keep their mouths shut now.

    On the other hand, their post 9-11 children are growing up as democrats, and that is where the community will probably stay for a generation (or until the war ends).

    • Replies: @SFG
    @anon

    Made a lot of sense before 9-11, actually. If the Jews all vote Democrat, why not cultivate the Republicans?

  158. A related question is, what is happening to Germans in Germany?

    The type of no-nonsense, salt-of-the earth German immortalized in Potato Brumbaugh (James Michener’s novel Centennial) still exists but they have almost no voice in German politics or cultural discourse anymore.

    Here is an article by a middle-class Berliner in today’s Die Welt, one of Germany’s leading newspapers (supposedly center-right, but riddled with pajama boy journalists pursuing their own red-green agenda). http://www.welt.de/kultur/article146819039/Schatz-die-Fluechtlinge-kommen.html

    The picture up top already tells half the story. Author’s wife keeps bugging him they should take in “refugees”. They live in a lovely flat with high ceilings in one of Berlin’s many fin-de-siecle residential apartment buildings. No spare room, but the author’s book-lined study is big enough for five mattresses.

    So, naturally, that is what they decide to do. They register with a “refugees welcome” NGO and soon after, their doorbell rings at 1 am. Welcome Nuri, Samir and Mahmoud! Three young (under 25 years) men, all from Damascus. Sandwiches and fruit for them in the kitchen, and then they are off to bed. The next morning, they all leave early to be at the intake center at 6 am when it opens. Author thoughtfully pre-ordered a cab and gave them cab fare.

    Now here’s the kicker. This married couple is not childless. They have two daughters of kindergarten age and their youngest daughter is five months old!

    Words fail me.

  159. A note to commenter reiner Tor, if he’s still around.

    As I predicted, the number of Germans answering “yes” to the poll question “Can Germany cope with the many refugees from crisis regions streaming into Germany?” declined from its peak value of 62 percent two weeks ago. It is now at 57 percent and I expect it to continue declining until it levels off around 40 percent in January.

    Will keep you posted with updates as they are published.

  160. @Peter Akuleyev
    @Jimbob


    A red, white, and blue German Heimtag with a biergarten festooned with bunting, an oompah marching brass band, with frankfurters and hamburgers for all.
     
    You are right. American folk culture is far more Germanic than most Americans realize. It is interesting how few English traditional foods and folk traditions live in US culture - we don't do maypoles in the US or pantomimes, we don't eat sausage rolls or puddings, we don't drink flat ale. We do eat German style brats and frankfurters, even with sauerkraut, the most popular beer style is lager, and we put up German style fir trees for Christmas.

    Replies: @Sean, @Brutusale

    Where I live, lager is in a dead heat with IPAs now.

    And we all know who invented the IPA.

  161. @Sean

    But Bryan was a genuine pacifist and was horrified by Imperial Germany issuing extracts from Nietzsche’s works to its soldiers on the front to motivate them.
     
    The other thing officially issued to the troops was the Gospel of John.

    Nietzscheanism was not right wing before the 30s, Nietzsche-influenced socialists and communists were very common.

    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in the The Gulag Archipelago says German women were much sought after as wives in the communities of ex prisoners.

    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump's mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald's mother was German. A volatile combination!

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist, @Reg Cæsar

    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump’s mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald’s mother was German. A volatile combination!

    Another energetic German-Scottish mix was Ethel Merman. She shortened it from Zimmerman.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @Reg Cæsar

    German/Scottish is pretty much what Queen Elizabeth is too.

  162. @Reg Cæsar
    @Sean


    To answer the question posed by the post, probably German women married out. Pat Buchanan is mainly German and Scottish. Trump’s mother was Scottish. Kevin MacDonald’s mother was German. A volatile combination!

     

    Another energetic German-Scottish mix was Ethel Merman. She shortened it from Zimmerman.

    Replies: @Flip

    German/Scottish is pretty much what Queen Elizabeth is too.

  163. The Leopold and Loeb tidbit is interesting. I’m not sure the German-Americans were less militaristic, though, unless you’re trying to average in the Quakers and whatnot.

    My own take on the German-American question is here https://plasticprism.com/index.php/2015/09/26/german-america-is-still-silently-here/ if anyone is interested…

  164. @Rotten
    German history is one of constantly being overrun by invaders, interspersed with long periods of feudal quarreling.

    I think this history helps explain one of its consequences: historically constantly required to submit to invaders, German women are highly likely to out marry compared to every other European group.

    What happened to German Culture in America?

    It became Kardashians. The mom, Kris Jenner, is mostly German but lists 8-10 different ethnicities as her heritage. (In other words, the German women in her family tree fucked everybody else but Germans). And try to form, she married an Armenian, a transsexual, and dates African Americans. True to form, anytime you meet a white American who says something like "I'm part Irish, Scottish, Swedish, German, Czech, Polish, Italian and Natuve American.". You can bet that this person's heritage is large part German.

    Even Hitler's German identity pro Aryan nonsense could be understood as a way to DHV the German male against German women who were otherwise likely to fuck literally anybody else.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    This combination of deep historical knowledge and sound reasoning leaves one speechless. Only on the internet …

  165. Re: underachievement of self IDd German Americans, on the General Social Survey, Americans who self identify as German are about where Italian identifying Americans are, in education and vocab score – http://i.imgur.com/SAmAxd5.png.

    Scandinavian, British, Irish, French Americans seem to do a little better.

    Similar situation as with income.

    This is adjusted for the situation where SI German-Americans tend to more prominent in the Midwest region, where the Whites with the lowest (more or less tied with the south) vocab and education scores tend to be from (despite decent school scores). The effect is the same across regions though.

  166. @Jim
    I am German-American on my father's side and British-American on my mother's side. I remember when I was a boy that my father, uncles and aunts sometimes talked of the bad days during WW I when German -Americans were under attack. But my relatives on my fathers side seemed to be very well assimilated and I never noticed any bitterness on their part. Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

    Replies: @Rurik, @Rurik

    Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

    yea, when he wasn’t running death camps for German teenage boys after war II was over, starving them to death en mass.

    “God, I hate the Germans…” (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)

    “…it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater.”

    He’s also known for leaving American POWs behind after the Korean war was abandoned

    do some research

  167. “…especially after the revelation of an ill-conceived German plan for Mexico to invade the United States”.

    … and presumably to take back some part of the approximately 50% of Mexico’s territory blatantly stolen by the USA after the Mexican War.

    One of these days, it’s going to happen.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Welsh


    …the approximately 50% of Mexico’s territory blatantly stolen by the USA after the Mexican War
     
    Because, as we all know, the transfer of land from the Indians to the Spaniards was 100% legitimate, and the transfer of land from Spain to the Mexicans was 100% legitimate, but every acre of land that went to the US is stolen. Right.

    And of course the thousand Mexicans living on that land had more claim to it than the million Indians there.

    Just like Spain was stolen from its rightful owners, the Arab caliphate.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  168. ‘Old stock American’ misses important distinctions between Germans and British. The Germans were seen as a highly distinct population for a long time and in some ways there are still significant differences.

    And of course it doesn’t get much more Northern European than the Irish but they are very different than other ethnicities.

  169. There has been a very marked anti-German sentiment in the US MSM – just as there has been a more subtle anti-English one. The Nazi holocaust can be seen as the significant factor here. With English it is more complex and likely due to the perception that Englishmen need to be taken down a peg or two as they still harbor delusions of grandeur; that they could be quite critical of Israel and of course memories of the Palestine Mandate still linger. I was struck by just how powerful are the MSM in forming public opinion in the US, Canada and UK (but less in Germany) – the world map here illustrates this particularly wellThese three countries alone (plus, strangely, Romania) all perceive Iran as being the greatest threat to world peace.

    • Replies: @The Kulak
    @Macilrae

    Communism was particularly repressive in Romania, so the NATOists take advantage of the Russia = Communist = hopelessly backward while 'Europe'' represents the future stereotype.

    In Moldova which is for all practical purposes about as Romanian as Austria is German, the youth are starting to see through this as like the Ukrainians they've probably started to notice it's easier for Muslims to get asylum and benies in Germany than themselves. OTOH these days if you want a young German doctor you're likely to end up with a Romanian while in the UK it's young Polish doctors in NHS.

    NATOists also take advantage of traditional Polish Russophobia, though I've heard the younger generation of Polish nationalists loathes the Banderovsti and wants to keep military age Middle Easterner AND Ukrainian males (females might be ok) out of their country. Radek Sikorski's ouster has been touted by John Helmer as a sign that the Poles are becoming more pragmatic and less keen on being cannon fodder in some war against Russia, though I suspect the deaths of at least a handful of Polish 'volunteers' and participation of Polish pilots in Kiev's failed military campaign against Donbass are still being covered up. The withdrawal of Polish pilots in addition to the heavy losses would explain why the Ukrainian Air Force basically was grounded by September 2014 -- no Pole wanted to get shot down by a Novorossiya MANPAD and end up on LifeNews.ru or First Channel.

    The Orthodox Christian Romanians seem positive or at least neutral towards Russia, though not as enthusiastic as the Syrian or Greek Orthodox likely are these days :) Some resolution to the Transniestria question, perhaps with that little sliver of land officially joining Russia and the rest of the country except for pro-Russian Gaugauzia getting an anschluss with Romania might be the long term solution after Porky and co are long gone in Kiev.

    Heaven knows George Friedman of Stratfor is one crafty individual and if he said Poland would be a great power again by the late 21st century, then he probably knew something about TransCarpathia or at least Lvov if not Lithuania going back to Polish sovereignty in the early 2000s when hardly anyone but the most pessimistic of Russian nationalists saw a partition of Ukraine coming. The Hungarians under Orban are also getting more nationalistic and recall that some western parts of Ukraine have significant Hungarian communities that have been dodging or openly resisting the Ukrainian army draft.

    One last thing I've noticed of late is PEGIDA or LEGIDA German protesters bringing Russian flags to their protests -- and I mean the modern Russian flag not the old Commies still pulling out GDR or Soviet flags in the East. I guess being pro-Russian if not pro-Putin is these Germans way of saying 'up yours' to Bild, Der Spiegel and the whole NATO-dominated German press and Merkel government.

  170. @MC
    @Flip

    They said "descendants," although they could have been non-lineal relatives. The surname matched. Possible they were pulling my leg too, but they didn't bring it up until I asked, and weren't really joking types.

    Replies: @SFG

    Were they overweight?

    • Replies: @MC
    @SFG

    No, both attractive girls. Neither skinny nor fat.

  171. @anon
    @Anonymous

    Muslim Americans before 9-11 were somewhat pathetic in their attempts to be part of the establishment. Focused on being culturally conservative, business oriented, and generally just brown nosing authority. Back in 2000, as a left wing atheist, I found the attitudes of my numerous golf- playing "Muslims for Bush " family to be risible, and a little sad.

    9-11 knocked the stuffing out of that. White americans won't do "Abrahamic faith" anymore. After a period of being pretty confused ('why won't the local baptist church do a joint activity with us anymore?), the old conservatives mostly keep their mouths shut now.

    On the other hand, their post 9-11 children are growing up as democrats, and that is where the community will probably stay for a generation (or until the war ends).

    Replies: @SFG

    Made a lot of sense before 9-11, actually. If the Jews all vote Democrat, why not cultivate the Republicans?

  172. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @D. K.

    "The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush.”

    So, Donald Trump is descended from an Al Swearengen-type, who used to also get into Klan-inspired brawls with the NYPD?!?

    Forget the stupid elections - WE NEED TO MAKE THIS MAN OUR PRESIDENT IMMEDIATELY!!!

    Replies: @SFG

    No, we don’t. He’ll get into stupid wars, and more Americans will get killed over nothing.

  173. @yaqub the mad scientist
    I"m not sure if the Germans on the whole here were less militaristic, but they were definitely more leftist and/or "nice". The 1848 invasion into this country brought the first real taste of Continental leftisim into America. At least some of the intellectual strains that are sometimes attributed to the Ashkenazis who came a half century later really began with the German forty eighters, gentile and Jewish. Much like the Huguenot brain drain crippled France, Germany's loss of the "nice" guys changed the country irrevocably.

    August Willich , the great Civil War general, is a classic case: Prussian nobility, military training, intellectual Hegelian Communist, renounced his title and immigrated right before the war. Masterful war record, including successes at Shiloh and Missionary Ridge.

    I've read letters by German Union soldiers serving in the war to relatives back in Europe. They described the war as an almost holy cause.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @SFG

    Weren’t most Europeans revolted by slavery?

  174. @Percy Gryce
    Thank you, Steve. The evisceration of German-American culture--with its Bunds and Vereins and its dance halls and its churches and its biergartens--is one of my favorite secret histories.

    Oh, and where are my reparations? Since I'm only about 50% Deutsch, I'd be happy with a one-half share.

    Replies: @SFG, @Johann

    The Past is an interesting country to revisit. Not only were German Americans harassed during the two huge wars concocted by the American Progressives; my father was an immigrant from Northern Ireland and has as a boy witnessed the brutality of the British military against the Irish Catholics. During the Second War he was working in a factory in Philadelphia; he began to discuss the war with his fellow worker who was German and my father agreed with him that the English were bastards. A few days later an FBI agent was covering the working class neighborhood asking about his loyalties. A very fine German gentleman who was an immigrant and who was a friend of my father told me that before the Second War he had collected a bunch of German magazines which were the first to use color photography. As soon as Roosevelt and his Progressive cabal got the US into the war; he took his magazines to the basement fire heater and burned them all because his fear of the American Gestapo (FBI)

  175. @whorefinder
    A whole article about German-American identity without mentioning Hitler or WW2?

    I don't know whether to say "Bravo!" or scold you for obviously and deliberately missing the obvious.

    But I do recall that there may be some non-ww2 reasons about the German-American ethnic collapse:

    1) A Tree Grows in Brooklyn (pub. 1943), author Betty Smith wrote it as a roman a clef memoir of her time growing up in Brooklyn between the 1900 and 1920. In the book, her neighborhoods have German enclaves, Irish enclaves, and Jewish and Italian enclaves. The main character/narrator is half-German and half-Irish-----even though Betty Smith was all German. In the novel, Smith makes reference to Germans changing their names in embarrassment of the Kaiser/WW1, and the Germans singing German ethnic songs being deliberately drowned out by the Irish. She also depicts a German grandfather being almost completely distant from his progeny, symbolically severing their connection to their German roots.

    So Smith did document some of the WW1 turning of Germans against their own heritage. Unless she was retconning the ww2 turn on the German ethnicity to her time in ww1.

    Also, it seemed Smith had either a crush on an Irish boy or else admired their over-the-top ethnic pride. The father of the main character is an Irish man, a sweet-singing tenor whose terrible alcoholism nearly ruins the family, but who is otherwise an absolute wonderful and perfect loving father (and, as is often noted by the other characters in the novel, he's the best looking man around, and the most talented singer). For Smith to make herself part-Irish in remembrance is striking.

    2) Victor's justice. Let's not forget the Jewish-Hollywooders took extreme joy in every post ww2 year at always making the Germans the bad guys in every movie----including to today. Punish the Germans for the Holocaust. Once, in plays and movies a "German" accent denoted intelligence (this is why all the old "mad scientists" and doctors in movies had German accent---it made them seem smarter), today a German accent in film means you sound like the bad guy. All deliberate beating down of the ethnicity.

    3) Ironically, patriotism. Many Germans deliberately forwent their ethnicity to assimilate. For a long time, it was de riguer for Americans to demand that immigrants lose all of their ethnic identity before they became fully "American." This is why Mardi Gras parades by French-Candadian immigrants were banned in New England, and why Indian Schools (for Native Americans) required their hair to be cut, and ethnic languages were banned. The Irish mass immigration was a sticking point in all this---not only did the Irish not forgo their old ethnic pride, they reinforced it to this day. (probably due to the large numbers of Irish immigrants, creating a mass too large to enforce the old assimilation rules on them, and the over-the-top ethnic Irish pride heretofore mentioned)

    Steve, are you ever going to do a series on the mass-Irish immigration of the 19th Century? I think it would be interesting to note the Irish slums, crime rates, and pushing out of old inhabitants. I'm part-Irish myself, but I'd love to hear it from your pen. The effect of such mass immigration couldn't have been a net positive at the time.

    Replies: @James Kabala

    Before there was World War II, much of this had been done already by World War I.

  176. Steve, the stray thought has just struck me that the Swiss (Switzerdütsch of course) should share the load on UR threads with Jews. After all Swiss counting their money and keeping it safe would be a suitable trope to match up with the foaming focus on Wall Street Jews. And here’s a thought. Could these first cousins to truthers be diverted by the puzzle of working out who to hate more: Swiss banks that held on to the art collections of dead Jews or the Jewish lawyers and litigation funders who get up cases 70 years on against (almost) innocent public galleries in the interests of people who would almost certainly not have owned the paintings and objets if Hitler had not existed…. ?

  177. @Steve Sailer
    @Cincinnatus

    And Cincinnati was a center of Reform Judaism.

    Replies: @Wizard of Oz

    How did Germans and Ashkenazi Jews relate in 19th and 20th century America, especially socially and culturally? Was it noticeably different from Anglo attitudes? E.g. was there any difference between Anglos and Teutons when it came to curbing the rising number of Jews in the Ivies?

    And how did those relations change over the 20s and 30s?

    Was the suppression or hiding of German-American identity and culture as a result of WW1 a factor in Ashkenazi Jews becoming the interpreters and portrayors of middle and popular American culture and even identity via Hollywood?

    Was there a distinctive response of German-Americans to the Nazi policies and actions against Jews from Hitler’s becoming Chancellor?

  178. @iSteveFan
    @Anonymous


    It’s very easy for a German American to lie and say that he is English American. It’s much harder for a Middle Eastern or a South Asian person to do the same. This is not an apples to apples comparison.
     
    It might not be an apples to apples comparison, but it sure seems like an endorsement for an immigration act like 1924's as opposed to the later one in 1965.

    Replies: @Rdm

    Surely it’s likely the case.

    Personal anecdote, a Swedish guy who was born in England, always claimed He is English whenever it’s convenient for him to say so. His parents were Swedish. He later obtained his American citizenship and become full-fledged “American”.

    When come across Americans, he says he’s English because his accent is not American. But when he comes across full-fledged English, he says he’s Swedish.

    And that’s how weird American definition is. Those whites claiming whichever region they like to when it’s convenient.

    One time, come across a shortest ever White guy who says his parents from Dutch. Remember Dutch are the tallest people on Earth. And you wonder how on earth a guy with a 5’3” claims he’s Dutch. I’m speechless.

  179. Excellent article and some great comments. Thomas Sowell, in his “Ethnic America,” devotes a highly laudatory chapter to the German immigrants. More than five million of them came to the United States in the nineteenth century alone. According to census figures, around fifty-seven million Americans claim to be of German heritage. Together with the descendants of the immigrants from the British Isles, the Germans form the basic American stock. They were highly valued as neighbors, and their ways were woven into the fabric of American life — the Christmas tree and “Silent Night,” for instance, and the family-centered Sunday, with its “jovial yet orderly activities,” as an admiring contemporary put it. Unpacking that last comment: the Germans replaced what had largely been the case before–either dreary Bible-thumping or hanging out at the saloon, with the brothel to follow. Instead, the day of rest was now comprised of Lutheran or Catholic services, then a happy family dinner with moderate beer-consumption, and athletic games by the Turnvereine. I was glad to see the references to H.L. Mencken. Mencken was an “isolationist” and America-Firster, like his Anglo friend Albert Jay Nock. I suspect that in his own way he was as much of a Roosevelt-hater as Nock, who ranked FDR’s demise with the ratification of the Bill of Rights as landmarks of liberty. Nock proposed to a group of friends a celebratory luncheon at Luchow’s, the famous German restaurant on 14th Street, in New York.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Ralph Raico


    I suspect that in his own way he was as much of a Roosevelt-hater as Nock…
     
    You suspect? No!

    Whatever gave you that idea?
  180. @Jim
    I am German-American on my father's side and British-American on my mother's side. I remember when I was a boy that my father, uncles and aunts sometimes talked of the bad days during WW I when German -Americans were under attack. But my relatives on my fathers side seemed to be very well assimilated and I never noticed any bitterness on their part. Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

    Replies: @Rurik, @Rurik

    I’m reposting this because I see it listed under my posts but never made it to the thread..

    anyways ~

    •Rurik
    September 28, 2015 at 12:34 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Probably Eisenhower was a good thing for German -Americans. He had a German name but he was a great American hero.

    yea, when he wasn’t running death camps for German teenage boys after war II was over, starving them to death en mass.

    “God, I hate the Germans…” (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)


    “…it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater.”

    http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html

    He’s also known for leaving American POWs behind after the Korean war was abandoned

    do some research

  181. After the stock market crashed in 1929 and artists and writers subsequently moved to the Left, history got retconned to imply that it was always that way.

    This is a very provocative statement, about which I would like to read more. Any recommendations? It has the makings of a great post on this blog.

  182. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    I guess in a way, the German American disappearance is a sign of success. A totally successful assimilation. Since Germans are northern European, they could more melt in with Anglos. Same could be said of the Dutch and Scandy-Americans.
    Over time, it seems even Japanese-America has pretty much disappeared. Most Japanese shops in the US seem to cater to Japanese sent to work in the US for certain corporations, or they are tourist spots for non-Japanese-Americans.
    Irish-America has pretty much faded too. Irish-America used to be the big city politics in many cities. Just think of Boston and Chicago. And Irish-Catholic power in NY used to mean something. What does it mean now? Irish in Ireland have no use for church and tradition. Like the current retardo Spanish, Irish are more into homo-worship than anything else.

    On the other hand… considering that big cities still have opera houses and symphonic halls and play lots of German music, German culture is alive in those venues.
    And Wagnerian style of music is all over Hollywood movies. John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer. Americans love German cars.
    Germany has been in the news quite often.
    And even though Nazis are bad guys, they do hold a certain fascination that never dies. STAR WARS, HUNGER GAMES, 300, and etc would be nothing with certain German aesthetics.
    There is also the nature cult in America. So, it seems Germanisms are alive implicitly but not explicitly as ‘German’. Environmentalism has Germanic roots. And humane treatment of animals was surely supported by German culture.

    And Jews still struggle with the twin pillars of Wagner and Heidegger(and Nietzsche). We still get endless articles on how to handle those two.
    Because those two anti-semites still have huge influence on music(even if mostly on bombastic hollywood scores) and academia, Jews rail against them while admitting the impossibility of invalidating them from history. One of the most highly acclaimed films recently THE TREE OF LIFE — dreadful in my view — is a kind of Heideggerian version of Leaves of Grass. Hermann Hesse had a huge following in the 60s counterculture, and boomer flakiness — though Hesse was no flake — owes something to that. Jung had an even bigger impact on new age thought and on Joseph Campbell who was quite a celebrity in the 90s thanks to Bill Moyers.

    And there is the matter of Jewish-German emigres. Jewish or German? If Nazi Germany and WWII didn’t happen, would a lot of Jewish-German-Americans identified more closely with Germany? Hannah Arendt was faithful to Heidegger all her life.
    Sontag was obviously into German intellectual culture. She was an admirer of Thomas Mann and her review of HITLER by Syberberg is one of her major pieces.

    Even if WWI and WWII didn’t happen, I would venture to guess explicit German culture would have faded in the US. US is too welcoming and absorbs all cultures.
    And despite all the bad stuff about bad Nazi Germans, Americans never had problems with dealing with Germans on day-to-day basis. After all, soon after WWII, Eisenhower of German origin became president. And a whole bunch of Germans were in US government and departments. Eisenhower the German-American was given supreme command over the American military in Europe.

    And despite Holocaust cult — that only really took off beginning in the late 60s — , Germany also received lots of good press during the Cold War as a reformed democratic nation. If anything, it was Germans themselves who stressed war guilt more than non-Germans. I mean how many Americans really hate or distrust German-Americans?

    In the US, everyone loses his strong sense of ethnic identity. The only exception may be the Jews, but even their ethnic identity weakens and comes to rely more on the Holocaust. Blacks do have black consciousness but have weak sense of roots as their only interests are basketball and rap music. Also, blacks don’t read, and non-readers can’t sustain a meaningful culture. It’s whites who mostly keep up black cultural history — like with the Steve Buscemi character in Ghost World.

    Polish-Americans have assimilated pretty much as far as I can tell.
    Most Greek-Americans I’ve met know almost nothing of Greek history and culture. I know more than they do, and I’m no expert.

    Mexican leaders and celebrities make a big deal of their Mexican-ness but what is Mexican culture? Eating tacos and littering all over. Hardly something that can sustain a meaningful identity.

    It seems the only powerful identity in the global order is homo-ness. Homo Identity comes easily cuz it’s based purely on boing and current fashion! To have a meaningful ethnic identity, you need a sense of history and culture. To feel as a homo, all you need is a desire to have your ass stuffed with a whanker while waving a homo color flag.
    Also, homo identity is more powerful than male identity or female identity cuz the purpose of true sexuality is for men and women to come together. True sexuality makes men abandon the brotherhood of men for the arms of a woman, and it makes women abandon the sisterhood of women for the arms of a man. Thus, the social unit of true sexuality is the couple, a man and woman away from the world. True sexuality separates man from most men and woman from most women.

    In contrast, homo boys all stick together and homo girls all stick together. And they are very promiscuous, so homo boys feel more as a community united by all-around-horny-for-the-butt passion or assion.
    In our consumerist, materialist, hedonist, and amnesiac culture, homo-ness is better suited than any other identity. If you’re Pakistani-American, you need to know something about Paki history, language, spirituality, and etc to feel Paki. But a homo merely needs to feel the boing about butt-banging to feel homo and ‘proud’ or
    poo-rowd-y.

    In Germany itself, there has been a kind of death of German culture, but this is because Germans have abandoned the unity of passion and thought. For awhile Germans were remarkable cuz they could be so rational and irrational at the same time.
    Anglos favored rationality over passion(English romanticism notwithstanding but then it was mostly literary), and Anglos gained in reason/order what they lost in passion.
    Italians and Greeks favored passion over reason, and they gained in colorful temperament what they lost in trust, sense, and order.
    But Germans managed to create a culture that was orderly and efficient AND dark and passionate. This was the core of German genius. We can hear this in German music, especially beginning with Beethoven. Nietzsche and Heidegger weren’t mere systematic thinkers but visionary prophetic thinkers.
    And Jews who were influenced by Germanism and influenced it in turn also combined powerful intellect/reason with passion/vision. It’s like Marx wasn’t just some dry empirical economist but a visionary prophet. He wrote Das Kapital as a kind of new bible. This strange mix of the passionate and orderly was creative but also potentially destructive. Jews wrecked much of the world with Marxist communism, and Hitler took it even further with National Socialism.

    After WWII, Germans got blamed for everything while Jews were the object of great sympathy. So, Germans began to stress intellect and order while totally rejecting passion(except for self-loathing). This revived the economy but killed German culture as German culture is nothing without the element of passion. Imagine Wagner taking his emotions out of his music.

    But Jewish culture got lively cuz Jews could go on combining emotion with intellect. Feeling morally justified, Jews could continue to think passionately about Jewish matters.
    Even when we see Jews vs Anglos, we see how their approach to thinking differs. Anglos compartmentalize reason and passion into separate categories. So, if you must think, you must check your emotions and be dry as possible. Be hoity and toity.
    In contrast, Jews believe in fusing intellect with emotion, which is why they are pushy and aggressive and hard in their use of reason. It is wet reason.
    For some reason, Germans also arrived at fusing reason with emotion, and that may be why the Jewish-German tension became most problematic in the world, burning both of them to the ground in WWII.

    The Greeks came up with the dialectic way of reasoning where logic argued with logic. The thing about Socrates was he separated his reason from his emotions(rather great feat for Greeks as they are nuts). Much of Greek philosophy is laid out as a dialogue, a meeting of the minds based on facts and logic.
    And as Greeks had many gods, there was no single truth. There was an interplay of ideas to arrive at truth. But Jews believe in one God and since He knew everything, there was no need for a dialogue. So, a kind of monolectical approach developed. What Jews heard from the Angry God was eternal wisdom fused with His great rage that better not be disobeyed. Socrates discussed stuff with others. Jewish prophets blurted out stuff like they knew everything. Jesus did too. He just told the Disciples to listen, not argue with Him. Still, Jews were to ask questions, and the more abstract their God became, the more abstract their questions became, and this made Jews smarter as well as more neurotic.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    @Priss Factor


    For awhile Germans were remarkable cuz they could be so rational and irrational at the same time.
     
    that is sublime

    I don't get to see too much sublime much anymore
    , @Nickels
    @Priss Factor

    Wow

  183. Whatever Happened To Deutschland Germans?

    I am wondering when they will find their balls and demand the US give their gold back.

    Maybe Viktor Orbán will loan them his for a day.

  184. Did Englishmen or Germans build all those charming Victorian villages and houses in the late 1800s?

  185. @Tom Welsh
    "...especially after the revelation of an ill-conceived German plan for Mexico to invade the United States".

    ... and presumably to take back some part of the approximately 50% of Mexico's territory blatantly stolen by the USA after the Mexican War.

    One of these days, it's going to happen.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    …the approximately 50% of Mexico’s territory blatantly stolen by the USA after the Mexican War

    Because, as we all know, the transfer of land from the Indians to the Spaniards was 100% legitimate, and the transfer of land from Spain to the Mexicans was 100% legitimate, but every acre of land that went to the US is stolen. Right.

    And of course the thousand Mexicans living on that land had more claim to it than the million Indians there.

    Just like Spain was stolen from its rightful owners, the Arab caliphate.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Spain should be returned to its rightful owners, the Carthaginian Empire, which in turn belongs to Sidon and Tyre.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  186. @Ralph Raico
    Excellent article and some great comments. Thomas Sowell, in his "Ethnic America," devotes a highly laudatory chapter to the German immigrants. More than five million of them came to the United States in the nineteenth century alone. According to census figures, around fifty-seven million Americans claim to be of German heritage. Together with the descendants of the immigrants from the British Isles, the Germans form the basic American stock. They were highly valued as neighbors, and their ways were woven into the fabric of American life — the Christmas tree and “Silent Night,” for instance, and the family-centered Sunday, with its “jovial yet orderly activities,” as an admiring contemporary put it. Unpacking that last comment: the Germans replaced what had largely been the case before--either dreary Bible-thumping or hanging out at the saloon, with the brothel to follow. Instead, the day of rest was now comprised of Lutheran or Catholic services, then a happy family dinner with moderate beer-consumption, and athletic games by the Turnvereine. I was glad to see the references to H.L. Mencken. Mencken was an "isolationist" and America-Firster, like his Anglo friend Albert Jay Nock. I suspect that in his own way he was as much of a Roosevelt-hater as Nock, who ranked FDR's demise with the ratification of the Bill of Rights as landmarks of liberty. Nock proposed to a group of friends a celebratory luncheon at Luchow's, the famous German restaurant on 14th Street, in New York.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I suspect that in his own way he was as much of a Roosevelt-hater as Nock…

    You suspect? No!

    Whatever gave you that idea?

  187. @Priss Factor
    I guess in a way, the German American disappearance is a sign of success. A totally successful assimilation. Since Germans are northern European, they could more melt in with Anglos. Same could be said of the Dutch and Scandy-Americans.
    Over time, it seems even Japanese-America has pretty much disappeared. Most Japanese shops in the US seem to cater to Japanese sent to work in the US for certain corporations, or they are tourist spots for non-Japanese-Americans.
    Irish-America has pretty much faded too. Irish-America used to be the big city politics in many cities. Just think of Boston and Chicago. And Irish-Catholic power in NY used to mean something. What does it mean now? Irish in Ireland have no use for church and tradition. Like the current retardo Spanish, Irish are more into homo-worship than anything else.

    On the other hand... considering that big cities still have opera houses and symphonic halls and play lots of German music, German culture is alive in those venues.
    And Wagnerian style of music is all over Hollywood movies. John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer. Americans love German cars.
    Germany has been in the news quite often.
    And even though Nazis are bad guys, they do hold a certain fascination that never dies. STAR WARS, HUNGER GAMES, 300, and etc would be nothing with certain German aesthetics.
    There is also the nature cult in America. So, it seems Germanisms are alive implicitly but not explicitly as 'German'. Environmentalism has Germanic roots. And humane treatment of animals was surely supported by German culture.

    And Jews still struggle with the twin pillars of Wagner and Heidegger(and Nietzsche). We still get endless articles on how to handle those two.
    Because those two anti-semites still have huge influence on music(even if mostly on bombastic hollywood scores) and academia, Jews rail against them while admitting the impossibility of invalidating them from history. One of the most highly acclaimed films recently THE TREE OF LIFE --- dreadful in my view --- is a kind of Heideggerian version of Leaves of Grass. Hermann Hesse had a huge following in the 60s counterculture, and boomer flakiness --- though Hesse was no flake --- owes something to that. Jung had an even bigger impact on new age thought and on Joseph Campbell who was quite a celebrity in the 90s thanks to Bill Moyers.

    And there is the matter of Jewish-German emigres. Jewish or German? If Nazi Germany and WWII didn't happen, would a lot of Jewish-German-Americans identified more closely with Germany? Hannah Arendt was faithful to Heidegger all her life.
    Sontag was obviously into German intellectual culture. She was an admirer of Thomas Mann and her review of HITLER by Syberberg is one of her major pieces.

    Even if WWI and WWII didn't happen, I would venture to guess explicit German culture would have faded in the US. US is too welcoming and absorbs all cultures.
    And despite all the bad stuff about bad Nazi Germans, Americans never had problems with dealing with Germans on day-to-day basis. After all, soon after WWII, Eisenhower of German origin became president. And a whole bunch of Germans were in US government and departments. Eisenhower the German-American was given supreme command over the American military in Europe.

    And despite Holocaust cult --- that only really took off beginning in the late 60s --- , Germany also received lots of good press during the Cold War as a reformed democratic nation. If anything, it was Germans themselves who stressed war guilt more than non-Germans. I mean how many Americans really hate or distrust German-Americans?

    In the US, everyone loses his strong sense of ethnic identity. The only exception may be the Jews, but even their ethnic identity weakens and comes to rely more on the Holocaust. Blacks do have black consciousness but have weak sense of roots as their only interests are basketball and rap music. Also, blacks don't read, and non-readers can't sustain a meaningful culture. It's whites who mostly keep up black cultural history --- like with the Steve Buscemi character in Ghost World.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMVK16-e6GQ

    Polish-Americans have assimilated pretty much as far as I can tell.
    Most Greek-Americans I've met know almost nothing of Greek history and culture. I know more than they do, and I'm no expert.

    Mexican leaders and celebrities make a big deal of their Mexican-ness but what is Mexican culture? Eating tacos and littering all over. Hardly something that can sustain a meaningful identity.

    It seems the only powerful identity in the global order is homo-ness. Homo Identity comes easily cuz it's based purely on boing and current fashion! To have a meaningful ethnic identity, you need a sense of history and culture. To feel as a homo, all you need is a desire to have your ass stuffed with a whanker while waving a homo color flag.
    Also, homo identity is more powerful than male identity or female identity cuz the purpose of true sexuality is for men and women to come together. True sexuality makes men abandon the brotherhood of men for the arms of a woman, and it makes women abandon the sisterhood of women for the arms of a man. Thus, the social unit of true sexuality is the couple, a man and woman away from the world. True sexuality separates man from most men and woman from most women.

    In contrast, homo boys all stick together and homo girls all stick together. And they are very promiscuous, so homo boys feel more as a community united by all-around-horny-for-the-butt passion or assion.
    In our consumerist, materialist, hedonist, and amnesiac culture, homo-ness is better suited than any other identity. If you're Pakistani-American, you need to know something about Paki history, language, spirituality, and etc to feel Paki. But a homo merely needs to feel the boing about butt-banging to feel homo and 'proud' or
    poo-rowd-y.

    In Germany itself, there has been a kind of death of German culture, but this is because Germans have abandoned the unity of passion and thought. For awhile Germans were remarkable cuz they could be so rational and irrational at the same time.
    Anglos favored rationality over passion(English romanticism notwithstanding but then it was mostly literary), and Anglos gained in reason/order what they lost in passion.
    Italians and Greeks favored passion over reason, and they gained in colorful temperament what they lost in trust, sense, and order.
    But Germans managed to create a culture that was orderly and efficient AND dark and passionate. This was the core of German genius. We can hear this in German music, especially beginning with Beethoven. Nietzsche and Heidegger weren't mere systematic thinkers but visionary prophetic thinkers.
    And Jews who were influenced by Germanism and influenced it in turn also combined powerful intellect/reason with passion/vision. It's like Marx wasn't just some dry empirical economist but a visionary prophet. He wrote Das Kapital as a kind of new bible. This strange mix of the passionate and orderly was creative but also potentially destructive. Jews wrecked much of the world with Marxist communism, and Hitler took it even further with National Socialism.

    After WWII, Germans got blamed for everything while Jews were the object of great sympathy. So, Germans began to stress intellect and order while totally rejecting passion(except for self-loathing). This revived the economy but killed German culture as German culture is nothing without the element of passion. Imagine Wagner taking his emotions out of his music.

    But Jewish culture got lively cuz Jews could go on combining emotion with intellect. Feeling morally justified, Jews could continue to think passionately about Jewish matters.
    Even when we see Jews vs Anglos, we see how their approach to thinking differs. Anglos compartmentalize reason and passion into separate categories. So, if you must think, you must check your emotions and be dry as possible. Be hoity and toity.
    In contrast, Jews believe in fusing intellect with emotion, which is why they are pushy and aggressive and hard in their use of reason. It is wet reason.
    For some reason, Germans also arrived at fusing reason with emotion, and that may be why the Jewish-German tension became most problematic in the world, burning both of them to the ground in WWII.

    The Greeks came up with the dialectic way of reasoning where logic argued with logic. The thing about Socrates was he separated his reason from his emotions(rather great feat for Greeks as they are nuts). Much of Greek philosophy is laid out as a dialogue, a meeting of the minds based on facts and logic.
    And as Greeks had many gods, there was no single truth. There was an interplay of ideas to arrive at truth. But Jews believe in one God and since He knew everything, there was no need for a dialogue. So, a kind of monolectical approach developed. What Jews heard from the Angry God was eternal wisdom fused with His great rage that better not be disobeyed. Socrates discussed stuff with others. Jewish prophets blurted out stuff like they knew everything. Jesus did too. He just told the Disciples to listen, not argue with Him. Still, Jews were to ask questions, and the more abstract their God became, the more abstract their questions became, and this made Jews smarter as well as more neurotic.

    Replies: @Rurik, @Nickels

    For awhile Germans were remarkable cuz they could be so rational and irrational at the same time.

    that is sublime

    I don’t get to see too much sublime much anymore

  188. @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Welsh


    …the approximately 50% of Mexico’s territory blatantly stolen by the USA after the Mexican War
     
    Because, as we all know, the transfer of land from the Indians to the Spaniards was 100% legitimate, and the transfer of land from Spain to the Mexicans was 100% legitimate, but every acre of land that went to the US is stolen. Right.

    And of course the thousand Mexicans living on that land had more claim to it than the million Indians there.

    Just like Spain was stolen from its rightful owners, the Arab caliphate.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Spain should be returned to its rightful owners, the Carthaginian Empire, which in turn belongs to Sidon and Tyre.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @Steve Sailer

    hehe, which is why if you have the biggest stick, beat others with it. after 50 years, it will be history and no amount complaint/revelations can do anything.

    Land grab still works if you got a big stick to back it up. Just look at china, usa backed japan, usa backed israel :)

  189. Germans are Europeans. Germans assimilated. Any questions???

  190. @Priss Factor
    I guess in a way, the German American disappearance is a sign of success. A totally successful assimilation. Since Germans are northern European, they could more melt in with Anglos. Same could be said of the Dutch and Scandy-Americans.
    Over time, it seems even Japanese-America has pretty much disappeared. Most Japanese shops in the US seem to cater to Japanese sent to work in the US for certain corporations, or they are tourist spots for non-Japanese-Americans.
    Irish-America has pretty much faded too. Irish-America used to be the big city politics in many cities. Just think of Boston and Chicago. And Irish-Catholic power in NY used to mean something. What does it mean now? Irish in Ireland have no use for church and tradition. Like the current retardo Spanish, Irish are more into homo-worship than anything else.

    On the other hand... considering that big cities still have opera houses and symphonic halls and play lots of German music, German culture is alive in those venues.
    And Wagnerian style of music is all over Hollywood movies. John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer. Americans love German cars.
    Germany has been in the news quite often.
    And even though Nazis are bad guys, they do hold a certain fascination that never dies. STAR WARS, HUNGER GAMES, 300, and etc would be nothing with certain German aesthetics.
    There is also the nature cult in America. So, it seems Germanisms are alive implicitly but not explicitly as 'German'. Environmentalism has Germanic roots. And humane treatment of animals was surely supported by German culture.

    And Jews still struggle with the twin pillars of Wagner and Heidegger(and Nietzsche). We still get endless articles on how to handle those two.
    Because those two anti-semites still have huge influence on music(even if mostly on bombastic hollywood scores) and academia, Jews rail against them while admitting the impossibility of invalidating them from history. One of the most highly acclaimed films recently THE TREE OF LIFE --- dreadful in my view --- is a kind of Heideggerian version of Leaves of Grass. Hermann Hesse had a huge following in the 60s counterculture, and boomer flakiness --- though Hesse was no flake --- owes something to that. Jung had an even bigger impact on new age thought and on Joseph Campbell who was quite a celebrity in the 90s thanks to Bill Moyers.

    And there is the matter of Jewish-German emigres. Jewish or German? If Nazi Germany and WWII didn't happen, would a lot of Jewish-German-Americans identified more closely with Germany? Hannah Arendt was faithful to Heidegger all her life.
    Sontag was obviously into German intellectual culture. She was an admirer of Thomas Mann and her review of HITLER by Syberberg is one of her major pieces.

    Even if WWI and WWII didn't happen, I would venture to guess explicit German culture would have faded in the US. US is too welcoming and absorbs all cultures.
    And despite all the bad stuff about bad Nazi Germans, Americans never had problems with dealing with Germans on day-to-day basis. After all, soon after WWII, Eisenhower of German origin became president. And a whole bunch of Germans were in US government and departments. Eisenhower the German-American was given supreme command over the American military in Europe.

    And despite Holocaust cult --- that only really took off beginning in the late 60s --- , Germany also received lots of good press during the Cold War as a reformed democratic nation. If anything, it was Germans themselves who stressed war guilt more than non-Germans. I mean how many Americans really hate or distrust German-Americans?

    In the US, everyone loses his strong sense of ethnic identity. The only exception may be the Jews, but even their ethnic identity weakens and comes to rely more on the Holocaust. Blacks do have black consciousness but have weak sense of roots as their only interests are basketball and rap music. Also, blacks don't read, and non-readers can't sustain a meaningful culture. It's whites who mostly keep up black cultural history --- like with the Steve Buscemi character in Ghost World.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMVK16-e6GQ

    Polish-Americans have assimilated pretty much as far as I can tell.
    Most Greek-Americans I've met know almost nothing of Greek history and culture. I know more than they do, and I'm no expert.

    Mexican leaders and celebrities make a big deal of their Mexican-ness but what is Mexican culture? Eating tacos and littering all over. Hardly something that can sustain a meaningful identity.

    It seems the only powerful identity in the global order is homo-ness. Homo Identity comes easily cuz it's based purely on boing and current fashion! To have a meaningful ethnic identity, you need a sense of history and culture. To feel as a homo, all you need is a desire to have your ass stuffed with a whanker while waving a homo color flag.
    Also, homo identity is more powerful than male identity or female identity cuz the purpose of true sexuality is for men and women to come together. True sexuality makes men abandon the brotherhood of men for the arms of a woman, and it makes women abandon the sisterhood of women for the arms of a man. Thus, the social unit of true sexuality is the couple, a man and woman away from the world. True sexuality separates man from most men and woman from most women.

    In contrast, homo boys all stick together and homo girls all stick together. And they are very promiscuous, so homo boys feel more as a community united by all-around-horny-for-the-butt passion or assion.
    In our consumerist, materialist, hedonist, and amnesiac culture, homo-ness is better suited than any other identity. If you're Pakistani-American, you need to know something about Paki history, language, spirituality, and etc to feel Paki. But a homo merely needs to feel the boing about butt-banging to feel homo and 'proud' or
    poo-rowd-y.

    In Germany itself, there has been a kind of death of German culture, but this is because Germans have abandoned the unity of passion and thought. For awhile Germans were remarkable cuz they could be so rational and irrational at the same time.
    Anglos favored rationality over passion(English romanticism notwithstanding but then it was mostly literary), and Anglos gained in reason/order what they lost in passion.
    Italians and Greeks favored passion over reason, and they gained in colorful temperament what they lost in trust, sense, and order.
    But Germans managed to create a culture that was orderly and efficient AND dark and passionate. This was the core of German genius. We can hear this in German music, especially beginning with Beethoven. Nietzsche and Heidegger weren't mere systematic thinkers but visionary prophetic thinkers.
    And Jews who were influenced by Germanism and influenced it in turn also combined powerful intellect/reason with passion/vision. It's like Marx wasn't just some dry empirical economist but a visionary prophet. He wrote Das Kapital as a kind of new bible. This strange mix of the passionate and orderly was creative but also potentially destructive. Jews wrecked much of the world with Marxist communism, and Hitler took it even further with National Socialism.

    After WWII, Germans got blamed for everything while Jews were the object of great sympathy. So, Germans began to stress intellect and order while totally rejecting passion(except for self-loathing). This revived the economy but killed German culture as German culture is nothing without the element of passion. Imagine Wagner taking his emotions out of his music.

    But Jewish culture got lively cuz Jews could go on combining emotion with intellect. Feeling morally justified, Jews could continue to think passionately about Jewish matters.
    Even when we see Jews vs Anglos, we see how their approach to thinking differs. Anglos compartmentalize reason and passion into separate categories. So, if you must think, you must check your emotions and be dry as possible. Be hoity and toity.
    In contrast, Jews believe in fusing intellect with emotion, which is why they are pushy and aggressive and hard in their use of reason. It is wet reason.
    For some reason, Germans also arrived at fusing reason with emotion, and that may be why the Jewish-German tension became most problematic in the world, burning both of them to the ground in WWII.

    The Greeks came up with the dialectic way of reasoning where logic argued with logic. The thing about Socrates was he separated his reason from his emotions(rather great feat for Greeks as they are nuts). Much of Greek philosophy is laid out as a dialogue, a meeting of the minds based on facts and logic.
    And as Greeks had many gods, there was no single truth. There was an interplay of ideas to arrive at truth. But Jews believe in one God and since He knew everything, there was no need for a dialogue. So, a kind of monolectical approach developed. What Jews heard from the Angry God was eternal wisdom fused with His great rage that better not be disobeyed. Socrates discussed stuff with others. Jewish prophets blurted out stuff like they knew everything. Jesus did too. He just told the Disciples to listen, not argue with Him. Still, Jews were to ask questions, and the more abstract their God became, the more abstract their questions became, and this made Jews smarter as well as more neurotic.

    Replies: @Rurik, @Nickels

    Wow

  191. @Steve Sailer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Spain should be returned to its rightful owners, the Carthaginian Empire, which in turn belongs to Sidon and Tyre.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    hehe, which is why if you have the biggest stick, beat others with it. after 50 years, it will be history and no amount complaint/revelations can do anything.

    Land grab still works if you got a big stick to back it up. Just look at china, usa backed japan, usa backed israel 🙂

  192. We should accelerate immigration from Germany, many will soon be leaving.

  193. Germans are Europeans. Germans assimilated.

    Or — America Germanized.

    Any questions???

    Fries with your hamburger?

  194. Some ethnic groups got demonised for their attachments to thier former homelands.

    [quote]In the United States, the term hyphenated American is an epithet commonly used from 1890 to 1920 to disparage Americans who were of foreign birth or origin, and who displayed an allegiance to a foreign country. It was most commonly used to disparage German Americans or Irish Americans (Catholics) who called for U.S. neutrality in World War I. Former President Theodore Roosevelt was an outspoken anti-hyphenate and Woodrow Wilson followed suit.[/quote]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphenated_American

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @James Ennis

    woah, good read. Thanks. this was the perfect response to the entire article.

  195. Thank you, Reg Caesar, for that great Roosevelt-hating column by Mencken. And that was an excellent reply to Tom Welsh on Mexico.

  196. @James Ennis
    Some ethnic groups got demonised for their attachments to thier former homelands.

    [quote]In the United States, the term hyphenated American is an epithet commonly used from 1890 to 1920 to disparage Americans who were of foreign birth or origin, and who displayed an allegiance to a foreign country. It was most commonly used to disparage German Americans or Irish Americans (Catholics) who called for U.S. neutrality in World War I. Former President Theodore Roosevelt was an outspoken anti-hyphenate and Woodrow Wilson followed suit.[/quote]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphenated_American

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    woah, good read. Thanks. this was the perfect response to the entire article.

  197. @D. K.
    "Trump" was not actually a German name:

    "[Fred] Trump's father Friedrich Drumpf immigrated to New York City in 1885 and worked as a barber for six years, becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1892 [...] under the Anglicized name Frederick Trump after moving to Seattle, Washington in 1891. The elder Trump operated hotels and restaurants in the Klondike during the Klondike Gold Rush." [per Wikipedia.org]

    Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe, @sure thing

    “Drumpf”??!!?

    Jeez. No wonder he changed it. Even if Trump isn’t much better..

    But are you sure it’s German?

    Sounds Dutch to me.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @sure thing

    http://genealogy.about.com/od/famous_family_trees/p/trump.htm

  198. @Mark Minter
    Central Texas.

    Driving west on I-10 from Houston, you encounter the most remarkable transition in terrain and culture, actually the moment you cross the county line into Colorado County, maybe 10 miles east of Columbus. That is where the "west" begins and the big sky vistas of the west begin where you can see for miles and miles. And the German influence in Texas has its boundary.

    The people of Central Texas look a little down on the people nearer the coast as "Bayou Trash. Within the space of even a few hundred feet, everything changes. The fields are better maintained, the roads are better, the fences are even, maintained, orderly, there are no billboards, the yards and lots that you can see from the freeway are straight and organized. And it remains that way for for 200 by 200 mile square where Columbus is the SE corner.

    The hardest jobs I ever had were in Austin. As a teen, my bosses would work the shit out of you, and your peers expected you to keep up. That countryside in its native form is rugged. Mesquite laughs at an ax. And they cleared huge acreage of it, in some of the hottest, most humid weather in the world. I've been near the equator and Texas is hotter, that Texas for sure. Michener wrote in his novel Texas that there were 11,000 Mexicans in the state in 1900. And that land was cleared by those Germans and Bohemians that came as part of the land grant Santa Ana gave to Stephen F Austin. The Bergdahl, Woernke, and Schmidt girls married the Johnsons, Turners, Coles over time and those names are fading from Texas. But they are still there in the blood of Texans.

    Maybe those peaceful people went to Pennsylvania where the Deutsche became to Pennsylvania Dutch, but some other bunch came to Central Texas 'cause still even today, You Don't Mess With Texas.

    Replies: @Former Darfur, @Anonymous

    Exactly! Lots and lots of Germans and Poles. Still very proud of their heritage and you can find lots of good, dark beer.

  199. @sure thing
    @D. K.

    "Drumpf"??!!?

    Jeez. No wonder he changed it. Even if Trump isn't much better..

    But are you sure it's German?

    Sounds Dutch to me.

    Replies: @D. K.

  200. .

    Steve Sailer. I will make a guess and say you are of German-American descent yourself.

  201. My German American parents (ca. 1736) purchased the home I grew up on in the 1950’s. We were always curious about several empty foundations at the rear of the property. As a kid, I made the acquaintance of a much older neighbor., He informed me that the foundations were the remains of a German beer garden that was burned during WWI.

    We have never thought of of ourselves as “German”. I had an ancestor at Valley Forge (disabled when a tent fell on him) and 13 collateral relatives killed in Pickett’s Charge. We think of ourselves as 100% American. My “roots” being largely Southern, I have noticed in older censuses in the South the majority of people asked simply identify as “American”. When my parents moved to New England, they were astounded at the number of clubs labeled “Irish American”, “Italo American”, “Franco American”, etc.

  202. @iSteveFan
    It is interesting to contrast the treatment of German-Americans after US entry into WW1 with the treatment of Mohammedans after 9-11. It is also interesting to see that German-Americans responded to this treatment by assimilating even further into American culture while Muslims responded to their post 9-11 treatment by doubling down on their uniqueness.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Anonymous, @JohnnyGeo, @Druid

    First off, Mohammedans is wrong description. Nobody worships Mohammed. It is Islam. Second, it was easier for the Germans to assimilate due to their European heritage and Christian faith. Muslims are ethnically different. For some, assimilation seems to mean getting rid of Islam, which will not happen. Muslims are more than glad to abide by the norms and believe in their faith – separation of church and state.

  203. @International Jew

    people with German roots were falsely accused of being spies or saboteurs; hundreds were interned or convicted of sedition
     
    Wow. German-Americans need their own Ta-Nehisi Coates to explain how those long-ago offenses explain today's German-American dysfunction.

    They can start by defining themselves as non-white.

    Replies: @Druid

    The poor calling the cattle black, international Jew?

  204. @Steve Sailer
    @conatus

    And encouraging Mexico to conquer Texas didn't help Berlin's PR offensive.

    Replies: @byrresheim

    Are you certain that story is true?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @byrresheim

    Zimmerman Telegram, published 3/1/1917.

    Zimmerman publicly confirmed it.

  205. @SFG
    @MC

    Were they overweight?

    Replies: @MC

    No, both attractive girls. Neither skinny nor fat.

  206. @byrresheim
    @Steve Sailer

    Are you certain that story is true?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Zimmerman Telegram, published 3/1/1917.

    Zimmerman publicly confirmed it.

  207. @Macilrae
    There has been a very marked anti-German sentiment in the US MSM - just as there has been a more subtle anti-English one. The Nazi holocaust can be seen as the significant factor here. With English it is more complex and likely due to the perception that Englishmen need to be taken down a peg or two as they still harbor delusions of grandeur; that they could be quite critical of Israel and of course memories of the Palestine Mandate still linger. I was struck by just how powerful are the MSM in forming public opinion in the US, Canada and UK (but less in Germany) - the world map here illustrates this particularly well http://i.imgur.com/9h1JLs4.jpg These three countries alone (plus, strangely, Romania) all perceive Iran as being the greatest threat to world peace.

    Replies: @The Kulak

    Communism was particularly repressive in Romania, so the NATOists take advantage of the Russia = Communist = hopelessly backward while ‘Europe” represents the future stereotype.

    In Moldova which is for all practical purposes about as Romanian as Austria is German, the youth are starting to see through this as like the Ukrainians they’ve probably started to notice it’s easier for Muslims to get asylum and benies in Germany than themselves. OTOH these days if you want a young German doctor you’re likely to end up with a Romanian while in the UK it’s young Polish doctors in NHS.

    NATOists also take advantage of traditional Polish Russophobia, though I’ve heard the younger generation of Polish nationalists loathes the Banderovsti and wants to keep military age Middle Easterner AND Ukrainian males (females might be ok) out of their country. Radek Sikorski’s ouster has been touted by John Helmer as a sign that the Poles are becoming more pragmatic and less keen on being cannon fodder in some war against Russia, though I suspect the deaths of at least a handful of Polish ‘volunteers’ and participation of Polish pilots in Kiev’s failed military campaign against Donbass are still being covered up. The withdrawal of Polish pilots in addition to the heavy losses would explain why the Ukrainian Air Force basically was grounded by September 2014 — no Pole wanted to get shot down by a Novorossiya MANPAD and end up on LifeNews.ru or First Channel.

    The Orthodox Christian Romanians seem positive or at least neutral towards Russia, though not as enthusiastic as the Syrian or Greek Orthodox likely are these days 🙂 Some resolution to the Transniestria question, perhaps with that little sliver of land officially joining Russia and the rest of the country except for pro-Russian Gaugauzia getting an anschluss with Romania might be the long term solution after Porky and co are long gone in Kiev.

    Heaven knows George Friedman of Stratfor is one crafty individual and if he said Poland would be a great power again by the late 21st century, then he probably knew something about TransCarpathia or at least Lvov if not Lithuania going back to Polish sovereignty in the early 2000s when hardly anyone but the most pessimistic of Russian nationalists saw a partition of Ukraine coming. The Hungarians under Orban are also getting more nationalistic and recall that some western parts of Ukraine have significant Hungarian communities that have been dodging or openly resisting the Ukrainian army draft.

    One last thing I’ve noticed of late is PEGIDA or LEGIDA German protesters bringing Russian flags to their protests — and I mean the modern Russian flag not the old Commies still pulling out GDR or Soviet flags in the East. I guess being pro-Russian if not pro-Putin is these Germans way of saying ‘up yours’ to Bild, Der Spiegel and the whole NATO-dominated German press and Merkel government.

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