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Were the Heroes of Flight 93 "Random" as George W. Bush Said?
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At a ceremony at the crash site of Flight 93 in Pennsylvania, George W. Bush orated:

“The passengers and crew of Flight 93 could have been any group of citizens selected by fate. In a sense, they stood in for us all. The terrorists soon discovered that a random group of Americans is an exceptional group of people.”

But, by the standards of the Great Awokening, how random, how representative were the Flight 93 passengers who self-organized the assault on the terrorists in the cockpit, probably saving the Capitol from destruction? Today, they seem extremely deplorable, the most derided of demographics: white male frat jock yuppies: Haven Monahans all, even the gay one.

We don’t know exactly what happened on Flight 93, but the core group of passengers usually identified as leaders of the assault were:

Tom Burnett

Burnett studied economics at Saint John’s University in Minnesota, where he was a quarterback on the football team. After two years, an injury shortened his football career and he transferred to the Carlson School of Management at the University of Minnesota. He was named president of the Alpha Kappa Psi fraternity, then later graduated with a B.S. degree in Finance. He went on to earn a Master of Business Administration at Pepperdine University.[2][5]

Mark Bingham

He graduated from Los Gatos High School as a two-year captain of his rugby team in 1988. As an undergraduate at the University of California, Berkeley, Bingham played on two of Coach Jack Clark’s national-championship-winning rugby teams in the early 1990s. He also joined the Chi Psi fraternity, eventually becoming its president. Upon graduation at the age of twenty-one, Bingham came out as gay to his family and friends.

He was on his way to a fraternity brother’s wedding.

Jeremy Glick

He and his high school sweetheart, Lyzbeth, were prom king and queen in 1988.[4]

Glick was an American National Collegiate Judo champion while he was a student at the University of Rochester in Rochester, New York,[5][6] where he was president of the Rochester chapter of the Alpha Delta Phi fraternity. He later worked as a sales and marketing executive for Vividence, an e-consulting company in San Mateo, California. Glick also played rugby at the University of Rochester where he was a team Captain.[7]

An old boss of mine was CEO of the start-up where Jeremy Glick worked. He said that Glick’s heroism was very much in character.

Todd Beamer

The “Let’s roll” guy was the only one of the four who was not a fraternity president or even a fraternity member at all, as far as I can tell, but he was captain of the Wheaton College basketball team.

Beamer attended Fresno State University, where he majored in physical therapy and played baseball, in the hopes of playing professionally, but injuries he suffered in an automobile accident ended these plans. He returned home to Illinois and transferred to Wheaton College, a Christian liberal arts college. At Wheaton College he majored initially in medicine before switching to business. He continued to play baseball and as a senior became captain of the basketball team.[1] He graduated in 1991.[5] …

Beamer subsequently worked for Wilson Sporting Goods while taking night classes at DePaul University, earning an M.B.A. in June 1993.[1][4]

… Beamer began working with Oracle Corporation, selling systems applications and database software as a field marketing representative.[1][4] Within months, Beamer was promoted to account manager.[1]

Beamer and Lisa taught Sunday school at Princeton Alliance Church for six years, and worked in youth ministry.[1][4]

 
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  1. hhsiii says:

    Sounds trigger-ish: Why we’re 3 fraternity presidents all in Flight 93? Was there a convention? 😉

  2. prosa123 says:

    It’s not the frat part per se that explains their resistance, but rather the fact that all of them were younger, physically fit males.

    • Disagree: Chrisnonymous
  3. They weren’t yuppies. Having a degree and being in business isn’t what anyone means by a yuppie.

    Ross Perot wasn’t a yuppie. Neither is Elon Musk.

    A yuppie wouldn’t cause trouble; he’d wait to be saved by the proper authorities. Please don’t steal the honor of real men and try to apply it to fashionable race-traitors.

  4. tyrone says:

    Let’s just say “some people did something”…..chimpy bush would go along with that.

  5. Have they found the plane yet?

    • Replies: @Patrick McNally
  6. In the next movie version, the bad guys will be white supremacists intent on crashing into the MLK statue on the Mall, and the heros will cover all the intersectional identities that can fit in the aisle of a 757.

  7. Mike Tre says:

    So they were basically the kind of guys who beat up George Bush bush in high school.

    • Replies: @Alice in Wonderland
  8. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:

    • LOL: The Alarmist
  9. Thirdtwin says:

    Those bullying frat boys were paid back with that atrocious mihrab and minaret memorial in Shanksville.

  10. Hearing a lecture from George W Bush about the dangers of domestic terrorism is about as welcome as a fart at a wedding. Bush manufactured the Iraqi threat in 2001-2 from whole cloth and is now working with Biden to point the “War on Terror” toward the American people.

  11. As per Prosa123’s comment, these were what the flight attendants are trained to call ABPs (Able Bodied Passengers.) They and passengers on the other planes would have been a lot more successful if they’d have simply been allowed to be armed. We’d not have been writing about what would have been a minor incident 20 years later, except as a footnote about the benefit of living in a free country.

    Instead 9/11 was used to disarm passengers, a STUPID, STUPID reaction. More evil than stupid was the use of 9/11 to further implement a Police State

  12. J.Ross says:

    It is not conspiracy theory or the least bit unreasonable to completely reject the “Let’s Roll” story as Stakhanov meeting his superquota. It is conspiracy theory (in the non-pejorative sense) to put forward speculation of what did happen.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
  13. El Dato says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    A open system’s path through phase space inevitable leads it to the large subspaces corresponding to higher entropy.

    As a PhD exercise, one might want to establish an equivalent rule for democratic systems of agents of bounded rationality constrained by economics and having differing priorities careening inevitably to centralized and corrupt power structures.

    Also, a deep exercise in epistemology:

    Did 9/11 happen so that a cat wouldn’t break a leg?

    • Thanks: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @Charlesz Martel
  14. Two of the four were rugger buggers ( in one case, literally ). Can anyone tell me what’s happening to American Universities ? Why are they permitting this strange English Public School export ? Are white students increasingly unwilling to enroll in American Football ( understandable) and choosing Rugby Football instead?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Alden
    , @duncsbaby
  15. George W Bush:”the lessons of 9/11 are obvious:On 9/11 there were not enough young Muslims in America breeding on US soil so Muslim Americans can be a major demographic force in America…”

    The Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon released this statement today read by Rosie O’Donnell impersonator General Mark Milley.:”‘the lessons of 9/11 are obvious:On 9/11 there too many Working Class Males in America…and a severe shortage of breeding age young Muslim Males….fortunately this situation has been rectified by President George W Bush and President Obama and President Biden all of whom have massively increased the scale of high fertility Muslim LEGAL IMMIGRANTS to America…..The Joint Chief of Staffs recognizes number one TERRORIST THREAT to America are Native Working Class White Makes who must be EXTERMINATED !!!!….This is the lesson of 9/11….and no other…

    George W Bush:”‘I agree with the Joint Chief of Staffs….c0mpletely…!!!”

  16. slumber_j says:

    I was considering Todd Beamer yesterday. We don’t hear much about his evangelical Christianity oddly enough, I mused. Huh. Weird, that–given that it was the through-line of his entire life and he’s kinda famous for his heroism. His religion ain’t my thing, but it’s extremely notable in his case, and he was clearly a very good man.

    Anyway, my maternal grandfather’s maternal grandfather Jonathan Blanchard founded Beamer’s alma mater Wheaton College, so I was thinking about them yesterday too. My grandfather was also a very religious Christian and a wonderful man in his own right–a good poet and (in an iSteve-ish vein) a dedicated and excellent golfer who was club champion at Chicago Golf and also a member of the divine Chrystal Downs in northern Michigan.

    https://omeka.wheaton.edu/exhibits/show/jonathan-blanchard/bio

    https://recollections.wheaton.edu/2010/04/raymond-p-fischer-and-the-american-institution/

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/search?query=raymond+p.+fischer

    https://www.crystaldowns.org

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  17. Hibernian says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Able bodied and with leadership qualities. Recruiting poster soldiers.

  18. Escher says:
    @International Jew

    The heroes will need to spend some time understanding what to call each other, and how to verbally capitalize Black names and lowercase white names.

  19. If these guys were able-bodied and traveling alone, they may have been in the emergency door exit seats, where there is better visibility and it is easier to leave your seat and to communicate with the flight crew.

    On a plane it is not usually easy to meet up with other people in other parts of the plane and to form a plan of action–or even to get out of your seat.

    These guys were genuine heroes and should have been given medals in the War on Terror.

    • Replies: @Elli
    , @Abe
    , @Anonymous
  20. @International Jew

    1. Making light of a tragedy shows just what a miserable excuse of a human being you are

    2. white Christians cause the most violence

    3. If you have not noticed we have not had another 9/11 since the country has gotten more diverse. That tells you something right there

    4. For all the heroism of Flight 93 they failed to stop the terrorists from taking the plane in the first place or landing the vehicle safely. If a Black Man had been present he would have defeated the evildoers and figured out how to make a relatively safe landing

  21. Russ says:

    But, by the standards of the Great Awokening, how random, how representative were the Flight 93 passengers who self-organized the assault on the terrorists in the cockpit, probably saving the Capitol from destruction?

    As random as the injured soldiers who speak on those Tunnel To Towers commercials: Overwhelmingly male; overwhelmingly white. Their injuries are on Bush/Cheney, too.

  22. Art Deco says:

    Beamer was a churchgoing evangelical. Tom Burnett on the cusp of middle age was a daily communicant, the sort of parishioner the church-o-cracy doesn’t much care for. You’ll notice all four worked in business, and were specialists in sales and marketing.

    • Replies: @HA
    , @The truthiest truther
  23. res says:
    @prosa123

    That explains (some of) the ability to take action, but Steve’s point better explains both the motivation/drive and (higher level) ability. Those descriptions go beyond what I would call “physically fit.”

    • Replies: @prosa123
  24. Elli says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    The hijackers herded the passengers together in order to control them, but that allowed passenger communication and coordinated action.

    Outgoing, ambitious, athletic, good looking guys are the stuff that both frat presidents and corporate salesmen are made of. That’s why they were on the plane.

    That such men fitting such a stereotype can also be courageous and selfless and good is denied by our elite.

    May their example be forever remembered.

    Side note: I was on that flight a few weeks earlier. Tenth generation American, visibly pregnant, cross-wearing, travelling with husband and children, round trip budget tickets. I got pulled out for the random extra security check complete with chemical swabbing of my bag.

    That practice will forever continue, because we are not a serious country.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
  25. Mike1 says:

    While this is an inspiring story, it is almost certainly false. Bush had ordered any planes flying towards DC to be shot down and it was flying towards DC. Everyone knew by then that planes were getting flown into targets. Plenty of time had elapsed to get armed jets into the air.

    Most of the plane was apparently on their cell phones to loved ones. Some stories have people using plane phones but the majority were supposed to be on cellphones. I tried this over 100 times at different altitudes all over the US at the time and I never got a connection once.

    The truly impossible to explain part of flight 93 is the crash site. A perfect hole in the ground with close to no debris is unlike any aircraft crash in all of aviation history.

    The idea that the hijackers themselves never secured the cockpit door is also unlikely. They may have been evil but there is ample evidence they were well trained and had thought everything through. Cockpit doors back then did not have the aggressive locks they do now but they were still strong and they had solid locks that shut from the inside.

    Like it or not, the plane was shot down and the families were given the chance to remember their loved ones as heroes. A few of the calls may have even happened from the fixed phones on the aircraft. Its not nice to shoot down a civilian aircraft but it would have been the right call to make.

  26. prosa123 says:
    @res

    Michael Moore quipped shortly afterwards that none of the hijackings would have succeeded had more of the passengers been black men. He was totally right, though I would add that working-class white men also would have sufficed.

    Passengers capable of effective resistance, whom I have somewhat arbitrarily defined as males between the ages of 16 and 55, outnumbered the hijackers 6 to 1 on one of the WTC planes and 7 to 1 on the other.

  27. Abe says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Thank you for your goodly post, Mr. Mason. In due love and appreciation of our British cousins, I point out another 9/11 hero, Rick Rescorla, whose obscurity is particularly strange given how he was depicted (if only in a minor way) in a major motion picture. Rick, already a veteran of the British army and its colonial service, moved to America in the early 60’s and voluntarily enlisted in ITS army at a time when many boomers, including the most subsequently successful ones (Clinton, Bush, and-yes- Trump) were doing everything in their power to avoid the same.

    Rescorla was an officer at one of the bloodiest American engagements of the Vietnam War, the Battle of Ia Drang, depicted in the Mel Gibson movie WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE (and book of the same name) where his conduct was described as superb. Rescorla was in one of the WTC Towers 20 years ago, last seen helping evacuate GlobHomo Wall Street banksters who would subsequently dismantle his adopted country. Truly a parable of our age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla

    • Thanks: Gordo
    • Replies: @Elli
    , @Pixo
  28. Anonymous[123] • Disclaimer says:

    Odd, no women. Not one woman karate expert. Not one kick ass woman to lead the fight. I’ve seen many movies, and there are always women leading this kind of thing.

    The denigration of men such as these will be our eventual, if not almost immediate, destruction.

  29. Elli says:
    @Abe

    Rick Rescorla should be honored and forever famous because he foresaw and prepared and planned and acted: he was ready for an airplane attack on the WTC by Islamist terrorists. He saved nearly everyone at Morgan Stanley by evacuating them immediately, against Port Authority orders, 2700 people. He had held physical evacuation drills, not talk throughs.

    Would that he had been chief of security of the Port of Authority, or high ranked in a government intelligence service.

    His preparedness is a rebuke to the feckless incompetence of every government agent and agency that dropped the ball, but he stands to me as the greatest hero of that day.

    • Thanks: res, Abe
  30. Jack D says:
    @International Jew

    I was thinking of a movie where they could re-cast all the white guy heroes ( I suppose they could leave ONE token white guy – maybe he will be depicted in some negative way – maybe he will attempt to ingratiate himself to the hijackers by betraying the others or maybe he’ll be the one that gets killed in the first 10 seconds of the action sequence finale). One will be an ass-kicking female, one will be Black, one will be gay, etc. If they can make black people into royalty in England in the Middle Ages, they can surely recast this movie a little bit to appeal to the modern audience. It can be labeled “based on a true story”. This is Hollywood, man, not the friggin’ Encyclopedia Britannica.

    • Replies: @Thomas
  31. jb says:

    Wouldn’t it have been amazing if the passengers had been able to wrest control of the plane from the hijackers and land it? I wonder what would have happened if they had been better armed. Before 9/11 I used to be able to take my 3″ pocket knife through security with no trouble, and it’s far more dangerous then anything they would have been able to find in the galley. Does anyone know if any of the passengers were carrying anything like that?

  32. I’m highly skeptical of the claim that passengers on Flight 93 took action. However, in a case where passengers actually foiled the hijackers and brought the plane down safely the ringleader (Clarke Bynum) was a 6’7” devoutly Christian former ACC basketball player from an affluent South Carolina family.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  33. Jack D says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It can’t have been that stupid in that there haven’t been any more hijackings. The first two crashes changed the game the instant they became known, even on the day of 9/11 itself.

    Previously, everyone believed that hijacking meant you’d have to fly to Algeria or Uganda or somewhere and sit on a hot tarmac for a couple of days and maybe they’d shoot one or two hostages but 99% of the people on the plane would survive if they just sat quietly and went along with the hijackers. So when the hijackers got on the PA for the first two flights and told everyone to remain calmly in their seats and everything will be fine, the passengers had no reason to strongly disbelieve them.

    But once you know that you are going to die (along with hundreds or thousands of other people on the ground) if the hijacking succeeds, the calculus completely changes. Part of the brilliance of the 9/11 attack was that they realized this and did all of their hijackings simultaneously in part for this reason. This is the kind of trick that you can get away with only once.

  34. In the lefty Allyship narrative all these guys are White Oppressors and the hijackers are Oppressed Peoples. Go figure.

  35. @Achmed E. Newman

    11/9 was the day Americans learned theirs could no longer be a high trust society. Our government was way ahead of us, which is why they disarmed the law abiding folks. They also told the law abiding folks that the safest course of action was to follow the orders of hijackers.

    BTW, if this was all planned by muzzie goatherds in Affy, would they have even thought to chose a date most Americans would associate with their local emergency telephone number? The rest of the world reads dates the other way around.

    The reactions to the shoe bomber and a couple other incidents since then showed that average Americans learned they couldn’t rely on Uncle Sugar’ Security Kabuki to actually keep them safe.

    One can only hope people are paying attention to who are being demonised nowadays.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  36. Jack D says:
    @Ben tillman

    I realize that a lot of people here are skeptical of ANY official narrative. If Joe Biden told you that the sky was blue, you wouldn’t believe him and would endorse some conspiracy theory about how it’s actually red and the CIA is only fooling you into thinking that it is blue.

    However, the passenger revolt on Flight 93 is quite well documented. Why do you think that the plane crashed in the middle of nowhere and not into the White House or the Capitol? (I’m sure that there’s some conspiracy theory answer – that the CIA who was operating the remote controls on the plane wanted it that way or that it was actually shot down and they are not telling us. The beauty of conspiracy theories is that they are evidence free so you can just invent endless narratives – ANYTHING but the official narrative.)

  37. @prosa123

    Until those planes started slamming into things, nobody knew that suicide hijacking was a thing. The Flight 93 passengers were the only ones who got a heads-up about what was happening — they knew about the other planes.

    I have been saying for 20 years that the era of suicide hijacking ended with the passengers of Flight 93 and I have been proven right.

    Both the Shoe Bomber and Underwear Bomber were roughly taken down by passengers.

    9/11 is utterly impossible now, simply because of the passengers.

    Only an authorized pilot for the flight could repeat the attack.

    • Agree: Sick 'n Tired
  38. Meet a real hero of 9/11/01, Kassim Busuri…

    Muslims in Minnesota reflect on a frightening, swiftly changing landscape after Sept. 11, 2001

    By FREDERICK MELO | [email protected] |St Paul Pioneer Press

    September 11, 2021 at 11:16 p.m.

    When terrorists leveled New York City’s Twin Towers, Kassim Busuri shared the same fear felt by all the other eighth-graders sent home early from his middle school classroom in North Mankato, Minn. It wasn’t until the next day that he also had to shoulder everyone else’s fear.

    As one of a handful of refugees and the only Muslim boy in his class, classmates directed a barrage of questions his way: “Are all Muslims the same way, as what these people did? Did your religion teach you to attack non-believers?”

    “People were asking me questions I couldn’t answer,” said Busuri, who before then had never considered himself particularly devout. Suddenly, the confused teen needed to have his own soul-searching conversations with his imam, or religious leader. He, too, needed answers.

    He got them. “I became more religious, and more informed about my religion because I was defending it,” said Busuri, of Jordan, Minn., who runs a day care center in Shakopee and an adult day center in St. Paul. “People said, ‘Your religion is a religion of terrorism,’

    sounds like Busuri was cornered

    and I’d say, ‘No, Islam is about peace.’

    and that’s how a master rhetorician refutes a bigot

    I knew that they were scared when they were saying things like that to me.”

    https://www.twincities.com/2021/09/11/minnesota-muslims-reflect-on-changing-landscape-after-9-11-terrorist-attacks/

  39. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    Evidently Mr. Tillman thinks the Airfone operator who spoke to Todd Beamer and the family members of other passengers are all crisis actors.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  40. anon[276] • Disclaimer says:

    >Today, they seem extremely deplorable, the most derided of demographics: white male frat jock yuppies: Haven Monahans all, even the gay one.

    No, not most derided. Most derided is blue collar, working class white men. These guys were coastal-dwelling beneficiaries of globalism– Frequent Flier types and a token gay guy. Today, they would have probably been Establishment Republicans/Never Trumpers. Maybe vote Red for state and local and Blue for Presidential elections.

    And one doesn’t need to be a frat president or otherwise high-achieving to “organize” a bum rush of a cockpit. That’s straight out of Hollywood’s hero-worship playbook— these guys were the best at everything, uber competent, only they could have accomplished this. Steve would readily describe that kind of stuff as low brow, in other contexts. It’s the stuff of boys’ day dreams and aspirations.

    An example of white proles “organizing” and acting like “heroes” is all the boat rescues during natural disasters.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  41. eded says:

    All of these guys seem to be college fraternity members, but I am constantly told that frats are a menace. I am Canadian and the frat culture has minimal presence here. What is the truth about frats? Good or bad?

  42. Thomas says:

    This is assuming, of course, that any of these people actually did what we were told they did. The system also needed to pump up a bunch of white Chads to throw into the wars it was preparing.

    We can be confident that were the same to happen today, Central Casting would send over some BIPOC, queer, nonbinary heroes instead.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  43. Anon[397] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    • Thanks: S. Anonyia
    • Replies: @Jack D
  44. Thomas says:
    @Jack D

    I was thinking of a movie where they could re-cast all the white guy heroes ( I suppose they could leave ONE token white guy – maybe he will be depicted in some negative way – maybe he will attempt to ingratiate himself to the hijackers by betraying the others or maybe he’ll be the one that gets killed in the first 10 seconds of the action sequence finale).

    In the Paul Greengrass movie “United 93,” they took liberties portraying a German passenger as a “surrender monkey” who sought appeasement of the hijackers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_93_(film)

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
  45. Anonymous[642] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, you fit the profile here, at least in your pre-journalism/blogging days: business exec, MBA, power forward for the Rice Owls.

  46. @prosa123

    ‘It’s not the frat part per se that explains their resistance, but rather the fact that all of them were younger, physically fit males.’

    Maybe not — and I speak as a non-frat type.

    Wouldn’t frat boys be more inclined to act in unison — and not necessarily be completely submissive?

    If I was hijacking a plane, that’s who I’d watch out for — not your isolated members of one social or ethnic minority or whatever. Me, Dot Tran, and Javier Jimenez are less likely to act in unison. Not that we’re not all fine folks…

    • Agree: bomag
  47. SafeNow says:

    In January of 1982, scores of park police and other responders stood by on the banks of the ice-clogged Potomac while Priscilla Tirado was about to drown in the freezing Potomac. This was the Air Florida flight 90 crash. Lenny Skutnik, an extremely nerdy guy with a droopy mustache who worked in the Congressional budget office, swam out into the 33-degree water and brought her in. How do you reconcile the responder inaction and nerd heroism with the frat-president/athlete model?

    Reagan recognized Lenny at the SOTU a few weeks later. There are videos of this on YouTube if you are not familiar with the nerdiness of this hero.

  48. @Thomas

    ‘This is assuming, of course, that any of these people actually did what we were told they did. The system also needed to pump up a bunch of white Chads to throw into the wars it was preparing.

    ‘We can be confident that were the same to happen today, Central Casting would send over some BIPOC, queer, nonbinary heroes instead.’

    On the bright side, that implies we’ll fight our next war to the last BIPOC, queer, nonbinary soldier we have.

    • Replies: @Thomas
  49. guest007 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    After viewing all of the drunk violent passengers who are triggered by mask requirements and pandemic procedures, the last thing that any airline passenger needs is a firearm. How many videos of flight attendents being threatened by a drunk passenger with a gun would the U.S. tolerate?

  50. Sparkon says:

    However, the passenger revolt on Flight 93 is quite well documented.

    Is it? Show your work.

    First, acknowledge how easy it is to fake phone calls, especially in an era when cell phone calls from airliners were said to be very difficult if not impossible.

    In fact, the FBI obtained from Verizon Todd Beamer’s cell phone records, which showed that Todd Beamer’s cell phone had made 19 outgoing calls after UA 93 was alleged to have crashed near Shanksville.

    How did that work?

    In addition, Pilots for 9/11 Truth have shown that UA 93 was still responding to ACARS pings at 10:10 am, which put the airplane in the vicinity of Champaign, Illinois well after UA 93 was alleged to have crashed at 10:03 am near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

    But sure, in the 9/11 fairy tale, the passengers aboard UA 93 regained control of the airplane from the mythical Arab hijackers, and instead of trying to, you know, maybe land the 757 safely, or even contract ground controllers before doing anything rash, they decided instead to go ahead and crash the airplane into the ground, killing all aboard.

  51. Jack D says:
    @Thomas

    It’s a movie convention (I suppose left over from the days when Germans were Nazis) that a German accent is a clue that the character is a “bad guy”. See for example the Die Hard movie.

    Note that Die Hard was done in 1988 but the bad guys were already German terrorists, not Arab terrorists. Although I suppose that the terrorists overly complicated plot to steal some bonds is more in character for Germans than for Arabs.

    In fact none of the bad guy masterminds that McClane encounters in any of the movies are other than white. In the last one, the villains are Roosians again (another reprise of their Cold War Hollywood role). In the 3rd Die Hard a black guy (Samuel L. Jackson) appears to help McClane.

  52. OT but the Guardian have interviewed Paige-Harden, and she’s dropped several more hate-facts. OK, we all know them already, but how many Guardian readers do?

    (Guardian interviewer)“Ruha Benjamin also suggested the hunt for more data to explain things just ends up being a barrier to acting on what we already know we need to do to fix the academic achievement gap…”

    (P-H) I disagree that we already know what to do. If you look at meta-analyses of educational interventions, you see most of their effect sizes are zero. Most of the things we try in education, even when they are well intentioned and well funded, make no difference to students’ lives. It is a fiction we have this army of effective, scalable solutions just waiting in the wings. Figuring out what works for whom and when is very hard. The risk of not talking about genetics is continuing the status quo, where we are much less effective at intervening than we could be.

    And …

    We’re reasonably certain at this point that the causal genetic influence is not nil. It is the size that is at issue.

    And …

    Anything that makes you more likely to get to the next stage of your education, to the extent that is reflected in your biology, a GWAS is going to pick it up. Importantly, people with these genes don’t have “good” genes. They have genetic variants that happen to be correlated with going further in school as it is currently constructed.

    And what Guardian reader ever cared about going further in education? Careful girl … start saying people without those genes are still full members of society entitled to the same care and consideration as anyone else … you’ll sound like Charles Murray!

    And she nails what I think is called genetic confounding.

    The jury is still out on whether “word gap” interventions will be effective, but one glaring problem is the same vocabulary outcomes that are allegedly the outcomes of being exposed to more speech could also be the result of genetics. Parents and children share genes and the same genes that are associated with adults’ educational attainment and income are also associated with early acquisition of speech and reading in their children. Before we spend millions on interventions designed to change a parental behaviour in the hopes of improving child outcomes, it would be prudent to at least check this effect out.

    I’m starting to think I’m in love.

  53. AceDeuce says:
    @prosa123

    Not sure about the passengers, but at least one of the aircrew was a male negro, and I don’t know that he gave out any ass whippings.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  54. Remember Pat Tillman?

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
  55. Pixo says:
    @Abe

    He really had the classic Celto-British Cornwall look.

  56. @Jack D

    My favorite Die Hard, after the first, was Live Free or Die Hard, where McClain did kill an Asian chick. The evil white villain who was boning said evil Asian chick got really pissed.

    That movie was probably the least politically correct in the series–also bitch slapped millennial techies a bit.

  57. @slumber_j

    Remarkably, Todd Beamer attended Los Gatos High School in his senior year. He was two years older than Mark Bingham however, so they won’t have known each other. What are the odds that two of these selfless men would have gone to the same rather obscure high school in what was not yet the outskirts of Silicon Valley?

    I’ve got Fischer relations in the Chicago area as well, Harvard men too, like yours. But a cursory look through Ancestry.com shows them to be two different families.

    Deutschland über alles einmal wieder.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
  58. @Art Deco

    Way to beg the question.

    And the “crisis actor” thing is silly. I don’t think anyone was a crisis actor since I was never exposed to anyone who could be acting or not.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  59. Scandalous.

    A bunch of testosterone fueled white guys, meeting up, unmasked and unvaxed, without approval of authorities and then attacking those who are in charge?

    These guys were deplorable white supremacists, probably Nazis–even the Jewish guy. If they weren’t dead, they should be in prison while the FBI finds evidence of their guilt.

  60. Democrats are trying to amnesty 8 million through reconciliation, which only takes 50 Senate votes.

    Senator Joe Manchin stands in their way….. but for how long?

    The Senate parliamentarian will have to rule whether immigration can be a part of a reconciliation bill.

  61. Thomas says:

    Note that Die Hard was done in 1988 but the bad guys were already German terrorists, not Arab terrorists. Although I suppose that the terrorists overly complicated plot to steal some bonds is more in character for Germans than for Arabs.

    It should be noted that the German terrorists were carried over from the novel Die Hard was based on, which was written in the late ’70s when the Baader-Meinhof group had been in the news. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Lasts_Forever_(Thorp_novel)) The thing I always thought was a hoot about the Die Hard baddies was they threw in a wisecracking black computer nerd (maybe the first example of what later became a stock character), a white guy who sounded like he was from Texas, and a random Asian guy for some reason. That always seemed like an early example of “equal-opportunity evil” in the movies. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EqualOpportunityEvil)

    Die Hard was always something of a villain-driven franchise, from the moment Alan Rickman stole the show in his screen debut, so it made some sense maybe from an audience perspective to have it be a battle of wits of white guy vs. white guy. Arab terrorists read more as dangerous because of fanaticism and insidiousness, rather than ingenious evil plans, to the audience.

    The most “huh?” villains I can remember in a movie were the Afrikaners in Lethal Weapon 2, released in 1989. The end of the Cold War that year left something of a deficit of usable foreign villains.

    In United 93, released in 2006 (right as the Iraq War had clearly gone south and the public was turning against it), the German guy was a last poke at the “surrender monkeys,” more than villain himself. Product of the times.

  62. Art Deco says:
    @ben tillman

    Let your imagination run wild. Don’t expect people to take you seriously.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  63. Mr. Anon says:

    Anytime George W. Bush takes a break from painting lousy portraits of GIs who got f**ked up in his wars, and shows his chimp-like face in public, he should be asked the following questions:

    1.) Why did he resist calls for any kind of general, broad investigation into the events of 9/11?

    2.) When he did finally relent, why did he initially appoint as the commissions chairman, Henry Kissinger, who counted several members of the Bin Laden family as his clients?

    3.) Why did he resist personally testifying before the 9/11 commission?

    4.) When he did finally relent and agreed to testify, why was it only under the conditions that he a.) not have to testify under oath, and b.) that he testify jointly with Dick Cheney?

    • Thanks: JerseyJeffersonian
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  64. @Jack D

    The conspiracy explanation isn’t that convoluted. 93 could have crashed in the middle of nowhere, because being the latest departing of the hijacked planes, the incompetent federal government/military finally had time to mount a response and shot it down before it could do any damage. We don’t really know what their actual target was.

    It could go either way. Maybe the young athletic frat guys actually did foil a strike on the Capitol. Or maybe the fearful federal government ordered the military to shoot down the plane and so it landed in a random field, and then a feel-good narrative was concocted to distract from that.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  65. njguy73 says:

    Here’s a July 2002 piece on the heroes of United 93.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3080117

  66. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    It can’t have been that stupid in that there haven’t been any more hijackings.

    No – it was evil and stupid. And unnecessary as you yourself even admitted in the final sentence of your post. The plan was one that could only be done once.

    I’m not aware of the TSA foiling a single hijacking or plane attack in the now nearly 20 years of its existence. Both the shoe-bomber and underwear bombers were inbound and had not passed through TSA scrutiny and anyway were stopped by the passengers themselves.

    The patriot act, which was rushed through within a month or two of 9/11 (because a lot of it was already written) was an enormous expansion of the national surveillance / police state apparatus. Whatever was the true nature of the 9/11 “crisis”, it was a crisis that was not allowed to go to waste.

  67. W is a filthy dirtbag. He spent the 20th 9/11 as he spent the first:attacking White people!

  68. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco

    Let your imagination run wild.

    That will obviously never be a problem for you, as you have none.

  69. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    There was still a faint whiff of Germans as terrorists in the air back then. Baader-Meinhof and the Revolutionary Cells were still in existence, at least nominally. The Berlin Wall didn’t fall until ‘89. Prior to 9/11, Arabs as terrorists were seen in the US as not really a thing here, as indeed they were not.
    The original WTC bombing was in 1993.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
  70. @prosa123

    Passengers capable of effective resistance, whom I have somewhat arbitrarily defined as males between the ages of 16 and 55, outnumbered the hijackers 6 to 1 on one of the WTC planes and 7 to 1 on the other.

    The passengers on the two WTC planes thought they were in an old-fashioned hijacking where the plane diverts to Cuba for negotiations or something. It was the kamakazi-ing of those two planes into the WTC that alerted everyone else that “hijack” means something different now (as of about 9:03AM September 11, 2001). The United 93 passengers got the message a few minutes later and took action with only about a 3 to 1 advantage, by your calcualtion.

    Now that everyone knows that a hijack attempt is an instant life-or-death struggle, no further hijackings have taken place in the US. The Shoe Bomber and Underwear Bomber, despite being large men, both got promptly beat up and disarmed by fellow passengers.

    Note that \$8 billion/year, 55000 employee TSA still has a prefect record of ZERO terrorist attacks or hijackings prevented.

    • Agree: Jack D, Dnought, Alden
    • Thanks: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Rob
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  71. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:

    The four were all shot down by USG ordnance, presumably at the time or not long after they counter-hijacked/un-jacked the plane, which I think Rumsfeld inadvertently admitted on camera a couple years later. So the Pentagon’s had eyes on this Monahan Menace much longer than the average zoomer knows.

  72. dearieme says:

    Bush is uneducated. When he said “random” he meant ‘haphazard’.

  73. @Almost Missouri

    Another favorite is when 3 Americans saved a French train in 2015 from a Moroccan armed with a Kalashnikov and a handgun. Apparently none of the other passengers did anything to stop the guy.

    • Thanks: JackOH
    • Replies: @Rob
    , @dearieme
  74. @Jack D

    There are plenty of ways for bad guys to bring weapons on board. Anyone who thinks the TSA security theater has stopped further hijackings is deluded. The real reason is that the types such as those who took down these four airplanes* are not from the best and brightest of cultures. All the TSA has reacted to over the 20 years is the shoe guy, the guys with the liquids (yeah, like 5 guys can’t put their chemicals together later), and that crap. It’s a show, Jack.

    You are correct in your point that 20 years ago, what happened was not “your Daddy’s hijacking”. I remember a little, but I also read a book about the hijackings of the 1970’s. In one year, there were something like one average per week! This was definitely unexpected.

    On 9/11, 3,000 people died, Jack. Those in NYC would not have died had just a couple of passengers been armed. The doors to the cockpit were not secure back then.** I”m not saying the passengers could surely have saved themselves had the pilots both already been shot dead, Airport ’75-style. The threat from these Moslems with boxcutters would have been neutralized, though. These passengers wouldn’t have been sitting there getting flown into buildings.

    BTW, it’s quite likely, movies aside, that some of these aircraft had deadheading or nonreving pilots on board.

    .

    * Per the official story that I’m not 100% sure of, but I’m not trying to get into an argument on the all that.

    ** Whoever wrote above about the Israelis and the doors is right about that. Pilots are told to in no circumstances open the door in flight when there is any trouble in the back. However, that doesn’t preclude other trouble in the airplane.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    , @Mr. Anon
  75. @Jack D

    You’ve got to go back to Back to the Future for that, I guess. If you remember the bad guys driving that VW van at the beginning and end were Libyans. Mark the Hollywood PC transition from the mid-1980s.

    • Replies: @HOOLIGAN
  76. @International Jew

    In the next movie version, the bad guys will be white supremacists intent on crashing into the MLK statue on the Mall…

    …which would withstand the impact. Just look at the thing. (Note that the script originally aimed the aircraft at the Holocaust Museum, but the director decided that would be a little too obvious.)

    On the other hand, perhaps one of that sliver of righties in Hollywood can get to it first, and play it straight. He can call it The Shanksville Redemption.

  77. BB753 says:

    That plane was shot down by the military. Or exploded if it was a drone. The passengers killed beforehand and the real plane never took off, just like the two planes ( or drones) that hit the Twin Towers.
    Watch starting min. 1:30:00

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Nachum
  78. George says:
    @prosa123

    A wealthier crowd some of the passengers had cellphones sufficiently capable of connecting while in the air and cellphone plans that allowed them to connect (remember this was 2001). The flight was delayed so the passengers with cellphones found out about the crashes and that set off the plan to storm the cabin. The most athletic men went in first, but they would have been followed by a mob of others.

  79. @Achmed E. Newman

    When I fly these days, I carry a tactical pen, 1/2 roll of Super 33+ electrical tape (it stretches good), a thick magazine which can be rolled tightly and taped into a decent baton, and a small flashlight (Milwaukee makes a good one for \$20) that can be used to lightblind someone with a few quick flashes. Wear a belt and keep a decent shirt that can be wrapped around your wrists to prevent cuts from blades. Think of being on an airplane as if you’re in prison and try to figure out what could be used as a potential weapon, but still pass inspection. In-flight magazines, books, iPads, laptops can be layered under your shirt to protect against direct stabs to your stomach/kidneys.

  80. Anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    That’s a good observation. I’m a big guy so usually request such a seat when travelling alone, as it enables me to stretch my legs.

    (The downside is that mothers with young infants are often also seated there, with the noise and smells that entails…)

  81. Thomas says:
    @Colin Wright

    On the bright side, that implies we’ll fight our next war to the last BIPOC, queer, nonbinary soldier we have.

    The next war is the war on you, goy. Or, in official parlance, “domestic extremists.” The figurehead who kicked off the last round of wars said as much the other day.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
  82. Steve Sailer’s 9/11 posts are as blue-pilled and normie-friendly as his Covid takes. And make no mistake — there’s a connection here.

    Anyone who, in the 20 years we’ve had since 9/11, could not figure out that the official story is as fake as a \$3 bill is either dishonest (which I don’t think Steve is), dumb (ditto), or suffering from a massive blindspot. It has to be the last of these.

    It is very strange. Steve is able to see through MSM narratives on race, IQ, and other topics. But when it comes to the Deep State, false flags, and other mass deceptions, he apparently just takes things at face value and doesn’t even think to question the same MSM sources that he otherwise knows to be full of sh*t.

    I mean, it’s not as if he’d have to travel far (virtually speaking) to find plenty of intelligent, well-sourced analysis on 9/11.

    Instead he’s cringe-posting about Todd “Let’s Roll” Beamer.

    Can anyone think of an explanation for this?

  83. @prosa123

    The whole Flight 93 “Let’s Roll” story is weapons-grade BS, with the Todd Beamer part being exceptionally absurd

    When you delve into the details behind the supposed #LetsRoll phone call, you realize just how absurd and stupid the whole story is. pic.twitter.com/GEuU9izvVW— Ursus Horribilis (@allergic2katz) September 11, 2021

    • Troll: Chris Mallory
    • Replies: @Wency
  84. @JohnnyWalker123

    Only to be killed by friendly fire.

  85. HA says:
    @Art Deco

    “You’ll notice all four worked in business, and were specialists in sales and marketing.”

    Specifically, the kind of job in which a Tuesday morning flight from Boston to San Francisco, scheduled well outside of tourist season, is regarded as a justifiable business expense.

    Sal, who works over at the Boston Jiffy Lube, doesn’t typically need to zip down to San Francisco on a weekday morning to administer an emergency oil change. Whereas some sales exec might regard that as just another Tuesday, depending on the importance of the accounts he manages.

  86. @Sparkon

    The lies go much further than that. The WTC is actually still standing. When they show that new building on TV where the WTC supposedly collapsed, it’s done with CGI. My brother in law lives in lower Manhattan and he told me the WTC is still there. He had a turkey reuben at Windows on the World last Tuesday. Giuliani is controlled oppo. The whole thing was a huge scam to raise the price of office space in NJ. It’s well documented by RealtorsForTruth that Dick Cheney took a controlling interest in a high rise in Jersey City on 8/31/01.

  87. Art Deco says:
    @Mike1

    Bush had ordered any planes flying towards DC to be shot down and it was flying towards DC.

    Did it occur to you to tally the number of planes that fly into DC on a typical morning?

    • Replies: @Mike1
    , @Hibernian
    , @Reg Cæsar
  88. @Jack D

    There was a post-9/11 movie that had a nuclear bomb going off at an American football stadium where the president was attending a game. The perpetrators? German Nazis of some kind. It was understood then that the original screenplay had Muslim terrorists planting the bomb. It was said that political correctness caused the change.

    • Replies: @Nachum
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  89. Rob says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Seriously, zero attacks prevented? Someone high up in the FBI must hate the TSA. Why have they not convinced some poor schlub with, “Hey, take this (fake) bomb on a plane. Allahu akbar!”? Then the TSA can catch the bomber and look like heroes. The FBI would have to avoid taking public credit for it to work. So maybe that’s why the FBI is unwilling to make budget competitors look good?

    TSA needs to hire some disgruntled former FBI to get someone to try to Allahu akbar with a fake bomb. Then the TSA can look good.

    Remember Richard Reeve, the shoe bomber?

    Every time I took my shoes off in the security line, I thanked all the gods that he did not hit the bomb up his ass. That would be a true victory for Islam, making Americans get anally searched every time we want to get on a plane.

    Sincerely hope no terrorist ever sees this comment.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  90. Art Deco says:

    Where do you suppose Mr. Anon got a copy of Henry Kissinger’s client list?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @res
  91. Stan Adams says: • Website

    The nerdy terrorists were so desperate to get laid that they were willing to commit murder-suicide to go to paradise to get their 70 virgins. But the jocks showed them, didn’t they?

    Someone needs to do a Virgin Hijacker and Chad Passenger meme.

  92. Jack D says:
    @S. Anonyia

    It’s pretty clear that the plan was to knock Flight 93 out of the sky before it could hit another target in Washington. Some of the fighters took off in such a hurry that they weren’t armed and their plan was to ram the plane taran style in a suicide attack. Everyone would have understood that it was necessary to do so and kill the 40 passengers and crew in order to save thousands of others on the ground. Classic trolley problem.

    But it’s also clear that the plane crashed before this became necessary.

    The weakness of any conspiracy was voiced by Franklin, who said that two may keep a secret if one of them be dead. There would be way too many people involved in shooting down a plane for the secret to be effectively kept.

  93. @Almost Missouri

    Some of the security measures have been funny. One time at the airport in Budapest, what qualified as “random” inspection of luggage at check-in was anything but random.

    [MORE]
    To satisfy American requirements, our flight to New York required luggage be opened and inspected before check-in. Well, the Hungarian airline, Malev, had two desks with two lines for the non-stop flight to New York. After interminable delay, when things finally got moving, they set up a table for our line, at which they opened every bag. The other line was allowed t0 just go through.

    That qualified as “random,” even though anyone could just jump from one line to the other. It was a bureaucratic solution to the American demands. That way, approximately half of the bags got opened.

    At the gate, they were opening all of our carry ons. I had a big bottle of pálinka in mine. Now, I wasn’t supposed to be taking a big bottle of anything onto the plane, much less Hungary’s favorite intoxicant. Well, the nice Hungarian lady opened my bag and found my bottle. She smiled back at me, as if to say, “you naughty boy.” I grinned back sheepishly, expecting her to confiscate my spirits and take them home. Instead, she gently closed my bag and gave it back to me, knowingly.

    Security.

  94. Sparkon says:
    @Jack D

    My reply to your comment here got disconnected from it. Please see my response in comment #40:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/were-the-heroes-of-flight-93-random-as-george-w-bush-said/#comment-4898675

  95. Rob says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    We are (were) a less domesticated breed than Europeans, especially the Scotch-Irish, who as we all knew, and scientists have incontrovertibly proved, are barely human.it wasn’t all that long ago that we were clashing with Indians. We have blacks to keep us lifting and we have the cult of sport that usually keeps the class of Americans likely to find themselves on a train Benelux fit.

    Have you ever met an American overseas? I was on the subway/train platform in Lyngby, Denmark at like 1 or 2 am, waiting for nearly the last train of the night. When a black guy starts walking towards me from the other end of the platform.

    To humanize myself, I was like “do you speak English?” he said, “Surprise” He was American! He knew the train schedules! I have never been so happy to see a strange young black man in a subway station at night, in my life!

    Point being, when you’re in a foreign country, pretty much all Americans are your tribe. Class and ethnic differences matter much less when you are surrounded by foreigners. The Americans probably bonded faster than any bunch of Frenchmen on the train, who are certainly as riven with class and locality/hometown/fine-scale ethnicity biases and separations as we are.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Colin Wright
  96. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    This is the classic tell for a false rumor – the speaker is never the eyewitness himself. The speaker hasn’t even spoken to the eyewitness directly. The witness is the friend of a friend , the uncle of your friend, a friend of your uncle, etc. There are never any names given.

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
  97. For the vast majority of us who were not on any of the planes that morning and therefore had no chance to affect the outcome, anyone who stood apart from the subsequent mad rush of jingoism is also a hero.

    I remember the case of Ward Churchill, the phony Native American professor at the University of Colorado. He initiated a great controversy which eventually led to his termination when he wrote an essay in which he referred to the victims in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as “little Eichmanns.” Although I never mentioned it at the time, the exact same phrase went through my mind shortly after the attacks, and quite independently of Ward Churchill.

    It still feels awkward to say it, but given everything we’ve learned about the global elite since then, it’s hard not to admit that old Ward wasn’t right after all.

  98. @AceDeuce

    How much more stupid is this culture going to get?

    Much, much more.

  99. SafeNow says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Achmed, I am wondering what the qualifications would be for the armed passengers. I think I agree with the idea of having a few armed passengers, but I would want them to be very proficient in their shooting skills and extremely stable psychologically. This would be difficult. Maybe someone is former secret service and was quite stable, oh, a year ago, but something changed in his life and he is not stable today.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Jack D
  100. @Intelligent Dasein

    it’s hard not to admit that old Ward wasn’t right after all.

    Should be “was right.” I’m sure everybody took the intended meaning.

  101. @BB753

    ‘That plane was shot down by the military. Or exploded if it was a drone. The passengers killed beforehand and the real plane never took off, just like the two planes ( or drones) that hit the Twin Towers…’

    My.

  102. @Rob

    Have you ever met an American overseas?

    I have never been so happy to see a strange young black man in a subway station at night, in my life!

    Yes, I had a similar experience at the airport in Frankfort. Having trouble finding my way back to the gate, I spotted a booth in a corner with a sign that said, “Assistance in English.”

    Behind the counter was a black American woman. We hit it off immediately. She joked that the Germans had not quite figured out how to provide direction signs at the airport. I didn’t tell her that I found that hard to believe about Germans, but we laughed together nevertheless. We definitely felt more like fellow Americans than black and white. It was obvious — and refreshing.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  103. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco

    Where do you suppose Mr. Anon got a copy of Henry Kissinger’s client list?

    Some of the 9/11 widows asked for a meeting with Kissinger after Bush named him to head the commission. One of the first questions they asked him was “Do you have any clients named Bin Laden” at which – their words – he practically fell off his chair. Soon thereafter he stepped down.

    You could actually try looking something up, given that’s all you’re good for, a**hole.

  104. @Jack D

    A guy I know told me to agree with this comment.

    • LOL: Jack D
  105. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    Some of the fighters took off in such a hurry that they weren’t armed and their plan was to ram the plane taran style in a suicide attack.

    Yeah, sure – that was their plan. I don’t believe that for a second. That sounds like obvious BS.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  106. This whole business of whether or should the passengers have fought the 9-11 hijackers presupposes knowledge they did not have. Up until this point, most hijackings were resolved with most of the passengers and crew surviving. At worst, you might have ended up sitting on some runway in Lebanon or the Sudan for a few days, and then had a melodramatic story to tell your grandkids. A few impulsive passengers may have gotten shot, and even in a rescue attempt, the security forces would take a few fatalities, but not the passengers. The reasonable thing for passengers to do was to sit it out. Yes, I realize later in the day, some of the planes still in the air may have gotten word over their cellphones about the World Trade Center, but by then, the hijackers were well situated in the cockpit.

    Subsequently, once hijackers had played this hand, and passengers from here on would now think of suicidal behavior as a possibility. There were no repeat performances.
    A month after 9-11, I was on a plane where the pilot before takeoff gave a speech over the intercom that should we be in this situation, we would all rush the hijackers as if we had nothing to lose.
    I might add, of all the billions we spent on airline security after 9-11, the most effective and cheapest thing done was to bolt the cockpit door during flights. This evidently was the trick, although it wouldn’t prevent shoe bombings, the plane would not be turned into a kamikazi attacker as per 9-11.

  107. Hi There says:

    George W Bush compared the 9/11 terrorists to domestic terrorists, and I presume that was a not so veiled jab at January 6. Bush also praised immigration and condemned those that want less immigration or seem to think their government is supposed to put their interests first.

    George W Bush almost seemed to say that Americans are the real problem.

  108. Mr. Anon says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    There are plenty of ways for bad guys to bring weapons on board. Anyone who thinks the TSA security theater has stopped further hijackings is deluded.

    For example, they could be pre-placed in the aircraft by accomplices working on the ramp crew.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  109. Lurker says:
    @prosa123

    Moore is a fat fool.

    Presumably there were no black men on any of the 9/11 flights or on any other hijacked aircraft in history.

    Presumably he believes the white racist patriarchy doesn’t allow black people on planes?

    Wait . . . what if we applied the same restriction to Muslims, how would have 9/11 turned out then Mr. Moore?

  110. Jack D says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You bet it’s awkward to say it, because it’s a false and malicious lie. Although Eichmann stands for the proposition that all of us, even the most “civilized” men, have the capacity to do evil, very few civilized men ACTUALLY do or plan evil, certainly not on the scale of Eichmann. And Eichmann was not under any misguided apprehension that he was somehow benefitting his victims or bringing “democracy” to them – his goal was unambiguously their total extermination.

    As crappy as our global elite is, they are not remotely comparable to Eichmann, not in the scale of their depredations and not in the maliciousness of their intent. Not even the worst among them (whoever you think that is – Joe Biden, Dick Cheney, whomever) is plotting genocide. Maybe America is not the unblemished force for pure good in the world like it was in the Captain America cartoons – every silver lining has a cloud. But putting it in the same league as the Nazis merely blurs the very real distinctions between them. If everyone is evil then no one is evil.

    I think that Americans live a very cushioned life such that they have real difficulty comprehending what real evil consists of. Some people are afflicted with “butwhataboutism”. If you tell them about the killing fields of Cambodia, they’ll say to you “but what about the poultry processing plants of America.” They just don’t get it.

  111. @Benny Meyer

    3. If you have not noticed we have not had another 9/11 since the country has gotten more diverse. That tells you something right there

    The Criminal Elite figured out you could kill thousands of Americans by starting with non-stop fear porn and following up with untested injectable genetic technology, and at least a third of Americans would willingly go along with it and cheer it on.

    Funny how 3k American deaths on 11 September 2001 were enough to launch twenty years of war, but official stats of 14k deaths in the USA alone by COVID vaxxes get nary a complaint from the masses.

    Mission Accomplished.

  112. @Mike Tre

    George Bush attended Kinkaid high school

    No one beat him up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kinkaid_School

    • Replies: @Rex Little
  113. Sparkon says:
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    The farce is with you.

    You should go back in time and apply for a job at Mad magazine in the ’50s. Even though your fanciful writing would have been too cheesy, even for Mad, I’d bet Mort Drucker could have used a shoeshine.

  114. dearieme says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    And yet if you read the link you provided you’ll discover that a fourth passenger did help.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  115. @AceDeuce

    “How much more stupid is this culture going to get?”

    It always gets worse. There is no bottom to the culture mavens.

  116. Nachum says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I think you’re thinking of The Sum of All Fears. In Tom Clancy’s novel, 1991, the terrorists are Arabs (although Clancy makes them tools of Iran and as always makes the Saudis the good guys). By the time they made it into a movie in 2001- it came out after 9/11 but was filmed before- CAIR had spent years lobbying, and the bad guys were Nazis.

    (True Lies, with Arab terrorists, had come out in 1994 and CAIR had gone mad. They even went mad over The Siege, 1996, in which poor innocent Brooklyn Arabs are persecuted after a terror attack. They don’t want “Arabs” and “terror” to appear in the same movie.)

  117. Nachum says:
    @BB753

    Loose Change is admitted fiction.

    • Replies: @BB753
  118. Thomm says:
    @eded

    What is the truth about frats? Good or bad?

    It is not bad. It is just a group of male students who live in the same building, have some connection via membership into a particular frat that may also have chapters at hundreds of other institutions, and organize parties, or go to the parties of other fraternities.

    Think of ‘organized partying’ in relation to ad hoc partying, just like organized crime is an upgrade over random solo or small-gang crime.

    At an elite place like Yale, certain fraternities and societies may lead to contacts that are of immense value (just like the venture capital club at Stanford or the compsci club at MIT might as well). But only at the very top groups of the top institutions. Outside of the top, frats are little more than what I described above.

    Now, in the age of bogus ‘Campus Rape’ narratives, frats are obviously the easy target.

    • Replies: @Dube
  119. Nachum says:
    @SafeNow

    That inaugurated the idea of SOTU guests, who have been called “Lenny Skutniks” since.

  120. Mike1 says:
    @Art Deco

    It occurred to me that a plane flying towards Washington DC, known to be controlled by hijackers, in closed airspace, refusing to respond to commands, after three other planes had hit high value targets may have been seen as a threat.

    If 9/11 is your idea of a typical morning you must lead a very adventurous life.

  121. Here is an article about one of the two Air National Guard pilots who took off unarmed from Andrews to try to find Flight 93. They would have rammed it had they found it probably killing themselves in the process.

    https://www.history.com/news/911-heather-penney-united-flight-93

    For about 2 years after 9/11, there was a 24/7/365 Combat Air Patrol over DC. I’d wake up in the middle of the night and hear some guy boring holes in the sky.

    Also for a few years after 9/11, you could not leave your airplane seat for the first 30 minutes from or the last 30 minutes to Reagan National. I was in the second row when an elderly Oriental guy (who probably did not understand the warning) got up and headed towards the cockpit. The stewardess intercepted him before I had to tackle him. Everybody knew we weren’t going to Cuba.

  122. JackOH says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    ID, a Nazi Party possessed of a more able diplomacy, and a stronger command of Madison Avenue/PR mass communication techniques (a la Lippman, Bernays, Ivy Lee), and, perhaps, what may be called American-style legalistic-bureaucratic Schlamperei would have been very formidable.

    Said Chancellor Hitler in a broadcast the other day:

    We’ve heard disturbing and unsubstantiated reports of irregularities from relocation centers for those small numbers of Germans who’ve voluntarily chosen to not avail themselves of the extraordinary social and economic benefits deriving from the Nationalist Socialist vision of Germany. We National Socialists understand that opinions differ. That’s why we’ve gone out of our way to assist those few Germans in finding international partners to allow them to establish themselves outside the Reich.

    Those unsubstantiated reports have troubled me so greatly, that I’ve decided to establish an investigative commission, the members of which will be announced later, which will have plenary powers with my full support to investigate allegations of excesses and abuses, and to refer wrong-doers for prosecution. As the Fuehrer and protector of all Germans, I can do no other.

  123. @Sick 'n Tired

    I know a karate instructor, very fit, who travels with a cane. He trains on cane fighting techniques. He tells me that when traveling with his cane he can also board early as a passenger with a disability!

  124. Your post seems factually correct but I’m still reporting it to Comintern.

    I just don’t like it.

    Maybe in the future they can add a person of unknown gender origin in a wheelchair to diversify the story a bit. That would be better version of history for my ideals.

  125. Somewhat OT:

    During the early-morning hours of September 12, 1994, a small plane crashed into the White House. The pilot flew directly over the National Mall and aimed straight for the building, hitting directly beneath the Clintons’ bedroom. He died on impact. But they weren’t there – they were spending the night at Blair House.

    In the days before the ’94 midterms, there were two or three serious security breaches on the White House grounds. IIRC one of the guys had a knife and the other had a gun.

    Then the GOP took control of Congress, prompting a flurry of media hand-wringing about “angry white men.” Then came the Oklahoma City bombing, allegedly perpetrated by a deplorable lanky pasty Army vet. The media went into overdrive decrying the thread posed by white militias.

    (In the meantime, the racially-charged O.J. Simpson trial was a national obsession.)

    But then the economy picked up, Gingrich fumbled the ball (as if he’d ever intended to win), the GOP nominated the hapless Bob Dole, and the media narrative switched to “It’s morning again in America!” And the white-male-menace talk subsided for a while.

    Just a series of strange coincidences, no doubt.

    • Replies: @Alden
  126. @Thomas

    The thing I always thought was a hoot about the Die Hard baddies was they threw in a wisecracking black computer nerd (maybe the first example of what later became a stock character), a white guy who sounded like he was from Texas, and a random Asian guy for some reason.

    I really like the movie but the story is terrible.

    They couldn’t find a safer way to make money with their black super hacker?

    Why would they decide to go in and take hostages at the Christmas party?

    The whole plan is terrible.

    It really felt like they were supposed to have a political motivation but the writers couldn’t come up with one.

    The story would have worked much better with Arab terrorists.

    But it is still a good flick thanks to the acting of Bruce Willis and Hans.

    • Agree: JMcG
  127. Gunner says:
    @Jack D

    But in the second Die Hard, both black and white military guys betray their country for the narco terrorist’s money.

  128. @prosa123

    He was totally right,

    LOL. You and he: both idiots.

  129. @anon

    And one doesn’t need to be a frat president or otherwise high-achieving to “organize” a bum rush of a cockpit. That’s straight out of Hollywood’s hero-worship playbook— these guys were the best at everything, uber competent, only they could have accomplished this. Steve would readily describe that kind of stuff as low brow, in other contexts. It’s the stuff of boys’ day dreams and aspirations.

    You’re missing the very important point that this boys’ daydream was 100% real. They did accomplish this. If you don’t understand that frat presidents and athletic team captains are more likely to be leaders in a situation like this, you don’t understand much about human nature.

    This has nothing to do with blue-collar self-organization. However, I would point out that, over time, due to The Great Sort, blue collar competency has been and will continue to decline.

  130. @JMcG

    They were obviously meant to be former leftist guerrillas who had decided to become high-end white collar criminals. There was that news report where some terrorist group said they had disavowed the lead guy, Hans Gruber.

  131. @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz, was it The Sum of All Fears from 2002? I don’t read novels like that, but I wonder if the book did have the Moslems as the perpetrators.

  132. @AceDeuce

    How much more stupid is this culture going to get?

    I’ll tell you when stupidity has peaked, Ace.

    (Gotta update my graph though.)

    • LOL: John Johnson
  133. @Sick 'n Tired

    S&T, I’m sure people will appreciate the info., but I’ll just add that you shouldn’t think of just the airplane as a prison. At the small airport terminals, the “sterile” areas are nothing but prison holding pens. They may pretty it up with nice chairs, plants and a coke machine, but you are basically in a prison there.

    Take a look at people waiting for family/friends to arrive, as the peer through the glass and wait for you to go out the exit by the cop or through those new “airlocks” they have now. It’s pretty sick. See “Different venues for TSA Security Theater”.

    I don’t mean to say there’s danger in the airport holding pens, but just to point out what this country has become. Thanks, Jack D’s mindset!

    • Agree: Mr. Anon
    • Replies: @JackOH
    , @guest007
  134. Anonymous[177] • Disclaimer says:

    On the subject of heroism on that flight, do we have any solid idea about ehat that Israeli commando did that got him killed? Also was he an air marshall?

  135. njguy73 says:
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    Did Bigfoot tell you all this? 🤪

  136. @Sick 'n Tired

    I purchased a keyring EDC flashlight from Amazon that puts out 650 lumens.

    Looking directly at the beam is a huge mistake. It’s the size of my little finger and recharges via USB.

    I own the Smith & Wesson tactial pen. I question if it’s viable to carry past any checkpoint where the dtaff aren’t half asleep.

  137. JackOH says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Agree. We’re supposed to be liberty-centric. Ought to be some Congress types willing to look at whether the anti-terrorist travel restrictions these days amount to an undue imposition on liberty. And, yep, the idea of airports and aircraft as permissive environments for lawful concealed carry ought to be considered.

  138. @Achmed E. Newman

    Achmed-

    You are correct.

    In the novel, The Sum of All Fears, the terrorists were Palestinian:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sum_of_All_Fears

  139. Ralph L says:
    @SafeNow

    A year after that crash, I was about to make my first airplane ride at 22 to Miami out of National Airport, taking off to the north like that flight. Just before takeoff, I overheard someone say “Air Florida.” Fortunately, it was June, so I didn’t have to worry about ice.

  140. @Mike1

    My understanding is that the passengers over powered the two guards and was trying to breakdown the door to the cockpit. They next must have come close to succeeding. The hijacker at the controls put the A/c into a full throttle power drive. Since this air plane is not a dive bomber, the wings would have broken off, fuselage cracked open and so forth. This why there is a large debris field.

  141. res says:
    @Art Deco

    Well, does anyone have any facts here? Or just FUD.

    This does sound suggestive, but who can tell for sure.
    https://ebrary.net/139011/political_science/commission_secrecy_public_inquiry

    Then came the question that cut to the quick. ‘With all due respect. Dr. Kissinger’ asked Lorie Van Auken, ‘I have to ask you: Do you have any Saudi clients? Do you have any clients named bin Laden?’ (Shenon 2008: 13). It’s reported that Kissinger was so startled by this question that he spilt the coffee he had been pouring and seemed to lose his balance on the sofa. Clearly flustered, he blamed the slip on a poor eye and a resultant lack of depth perception. But he never answered the question (Breitweiser 2006: 140) and soon drew the meeting to an end.

    The next day came some surprising news: the press reported that Kissinger had resigned from the 9/11 Commission. In a letter he had faxed to the White House, Kissinger explained that while he had never refused the call of service from a president before, any dispute over his client list would only delay the work of the Commission while damaging the firm he had built up over decades (Shenon 2008: 14).

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @Art Deco
  142. Dube says:
    @Jack D

    And if someone calls the media and says, “I shot down Flight 93,” the jig is up.

  143. @Achmed E. Newman

    That’s it.

    Good movie, I guess, but would be better if honest about who the likely perpetrators would be. (Or, let’s be honest, what the false flag would be.)

    I mean, seriously, Nazis? LOL.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  144. gcochran says:
    @Thomas

    “a random Asian guy” = Al Leong !!

    • Replies: @Thomas
  145. Hibernian says:
    @Art Deco

    All planes at some point were ordered to land somewhere nearby ASAP.

    • Replies: @carroll price
  146. guest007 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    They stopped allowing family members to go to the gate at airport during the First Gulf War. The major airports like keeping everyone but passengers out of the gate areas because airports that are open 24/7 like Ohare had problems with homeless living at the airport.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  147. @Jack D

    When I used to live in Germany (yep, I have an an issue with – and admiration for – Jews and I lived in Germany) I would joke to my German friends that they were screwed in Hollywood.

    Naturally, part of that was Hollywood was run by Jews who weren’t the biggest fans of Germans. But mostly it was because Germans make the best bad guys in the world.

    To have a great hero, you need a great bad guy. Germans are smart and sophisticated. You can easily believe that they could organize an extremely complicated evil plot. What’s more, you could believe that the German bad guy would say clever, pithy lines when talking to our hero.

    No other nationality combines brains, culture and the potential for doing nasty things like the Germans – at least, in the minds of Hollywood.

    In truth, the Germans have been thoroughly – and sadly – defanged. I’ve met more threatening puppies.

  148. @prosa123

    ‘Michael Moore quipped shortly afterwards that none of the hijackings would have succeeded had more of the passengers been black men…’

    That goes to demonstrate what a piece of shit Michael Moore is.

    ‘He was totally right…’

    And you, apparently. Ever wonder how all those slave ships crossed the Atlantic? All those Caribbean plantations managed to function?

    All those black men…

  149. Not Raul says:

    They should have hijacked a Delta jet out of Atlanta.

  150. @Buzz Mohawk

    BTW I know it was Frankfurt, not Frankfort. I was definitely not in Michigan at the time.

    Honest mistake.

  151. He “misspoke”

    • Thanks: BB753
  152. Ralph L says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    In the Tom Clancey novel, the baddies were Arabs and Palestinians. IIRC, they get the plutonium from a downed Israeli plane.

  153. @Art Deco

    Did it occur to you to tally the number of planes that fly into DC on a typical morning?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  154. prosa123 says:

    What’s really ironic about the Flight 93 passenger revolt is that it probably didn’t save any lives. By all indications the intended target was either the US Capitol or the White House … both of which had been completely evacuated. Of course, seeing either structure devastated would have been a huge moral blow to the nation’s psyche, but based on the way the government rebuilt the Pentagon so quickly I’m sure the damage would have been repaired in short order. Not like New York, which made a complete mess of rebuilding the WTC site, not that you’d expect any better from the city responsible for the Second Avenue Subway and East Side Access fusterclucks.

    Now, there were some concerns that Flight 93 might have been targeting Three Mile Island, but it was designed to resist airliner impacts … of course, they said the same thing about the WTC.

  155. Mr. Anon says:
    @res

    Yes, commenter “Art Deco” could have bothered to use google – his one discernible talent – to find that out. He might have found what you found. Or he might have found this:

    But he never questions any official narrative.

  156. Like all the rest of the government’s account of 9/11, the “let’s roll” audio recording is 100% fake. So were the Bin Laden tapes that got Bush elected to a 2nd term.

  157. @Hibernian

    Dick Cheney issued an order for Flight #93 to be shot down since allowing it to land with no terrorist onboard would have derailed the entire operation.

  158. @Achmed E. Newman

    Yes, in the book, the terrorists were Muslims who had recovered a lost Israeli nuke.

  159. Ralph L says:

    of course, they said the same thing about the WTC.

    A video I found yesterday (maybe here) said aircraft are restricted to less than 200 mph around NYC. They didn’t design it to withstand a (much bigger than in the early 60’s) aircraft at 400 mph, because they assumed it would be an accident, like the Empire State Building crash.

    One video mentioned the clouds of ash, which I thought was gypsum drywall dust.

  160. @Jack D

    Who would be able to suspend disbelief long enough to watch a movie with blacks or Arabs pulling off the highly coordinated heist in Die Hard?

    It had to be Hans Gruber because Tyrone Washington will be hustling crack and Achmed Mohammad would be committing an honor killing.

    Even when James Bond took on the brothers, they were trying to control the drug trade in Harlem, not stealing nukes, building space stations or contaminating the world’s gold supply.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  161. mc23 says:

    I tried to post a link to this on DISQUS and it got marked as spam. Curious if anyone else has seen that.

    • Replies: @Lurker
  162. Art Deco says:
    @res

    Since he resigned from the commission, why is his client list an issue? And since he hadn’t revealed it, why is it anything suggestive that he received the appointment in the first place?

    I’m not sure why it would be an issue if he had Saudi clients. If he’d been retained at some point by one of bin Laden’s cousins, that would be bad optics. Bin Laden, however, was known to be a family renegade.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  163. Art Deco says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Did it occur to you to answer my question?

    • Replies: @Dube
    , @William Badwhite
  164. @Benny Meyer

    Duck, you must vary the message a little, not just your email handle.
    This is getting boring.

    • LOL: Kolya Krassotkin
  165. @prosa123

    “Michael Moore quipped shortly afterwards that none of the hijackings would have succeeded had more of the passengers been black men. He was totally right, though I would add that working-class white men also would have sufficed.”

    Totally. After all, blacks have such a storied history, both as ordinary soldiers and marines, and as special operators.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  166. @Thomas

    In my (limited) experience, Lesbians tend to be angry people.

  167. @Faraday's Bobcat

    Faraday’s Bobcat wrote:

    The lies go much further than that. The WTC is actually still standing.

    We were in NYC back in spring 2017.

    No, the WTC is not still there. We visited he site. (And my wife and I had visited the site long before 9/11 when the WTC was still there — we know the site.)

    There are a lot of people reading this who have been to NYC in the last twenty years.

    They all know you are lying.

    So why are you selling such a transparent lie?

    • Troll: Hangnail Hans
  168. anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Verymuchalive

    What’s so hard to understand? If you’re not quite big or quick enough for football, don’t want to be around blacks, and want some time left over to study, Rugby provides a good social outlet.

  169. @Mike1

    Its not nice to shoot down a civilian aircraft but it would have been the right call to make.

    Yes. If the aircraft had struck the Capitol, it would have been almost as bad as J6.

    • LOL: Harry Baldwin
  170. Shel100 says:

    They never did catch Haven Monahan.Still out raping I suppose.

  171. anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @eded

    Essentially outlawed, since the late ’80’s, by the women who run the Unis.

  172. @Jack D

    Jack D wrote:

    The weakness of any conspiracy was voiced by Franklin, who said that two may keep a secret if one of them be dead.

    A co-worker of my dad’s, back in the 1960s, was an industrial engineer who had been a young man back in WW II. During the War, he contacted someone in the federal government and told them he wanted to work on this atomic bomb thing.

    This earned Charlie a visit from some very serious men in black suits.

    It did not earn him a job on the Manhattan Project.

    Secrets are indeed very hard to keep.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @JMcG
    , @Alden
  173. This is what Afghanistan looked like under Soviet occupation.

    Then America came in and changed that. They provided financing to Osama Bin Laden and fringe Afghan Islamic Mujahaideen.

  174. @Sick 'n Tired

    Think of being on an airplane as if you’re in prison and try to figure out what could be used as a potential weapon, but still pass inspection.

    A garrote or improvised ligature is easily disguised(laptop locking cables are ideal). Also back when I still had a small knife company, there was a line of pricey carbon fiber knives from Schwartz Tactical that didn’t set off Garrett wands. I think Cold Steel has a cheaper line of Grivory (gfn) knives that don’t as well. As regards TSA security, I myself accidentally (grabbed wrong umbrella when I left the house) carried an umbrella with a hidden blade spike on to a domestic flight.

    • Replies: @By-tor
  175. 2,416,425 people died in America in the year 2001. Roughly 0.12% of those people died in the 9/11 attacks.

    Nearly 10,000 Americans died on 9/11/2001. Roughly 30% of those died in the terrorist attacks, while the remaining 70% died of the routine causes (heart disease, cancer, traffic accidents, suicide, pneumonia) that kill people every day.

    It is impossible to overstate just how minuscule the death toll was on 9/11. Hardly anybody died. It’s a trivial number of deaths.

    Yet 20 years later, this country is screaming at the top of its lungs about something that killed 1 in 100,00 Americans. Imagine you have a city of 100,000 people and, literally, 1 guy dies in a terrorist attack. How trivial is that?

    9/11 is trivially unimportant in the scheme of things, but it receives an EXTREME amount of attention. Totally ludicrous.

    The REAL STORY of 9/11 isn’t the death toll in America. The REAL STORY is that the 9/11 attacks give the U.S. an excuse to launch a series of bloody invasions of the Middle East (“War on Terror”), which have killed/widowed/orphaned millions of people and turned 37 million into refugees. These are astronomical numbers. For every 1 American who died on 9/11, more than a 1,000x have been killed overseas.

    The true victims of 9/11 aren’t Americans. The true victims are all the foreigners who the U.S. military has slaughtered. They are the true victims.

    Look at this video from the movie “Borat.” Look at how loud that crowd cheers when Borat calls for genocide against Iraq.

    Excerpt from the speech below.

    we support your War of Terror! May we show our support to our boys in Iraq! May U.S. and A. kill every single terrorist! May George Bush drink the blood of every single man, woman and child of Iraq! May you destroy their country so that for the next thousand years not even a single lizard will survive in their desert!

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  176. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco

    Since he resigned from the commission, why is his client list an issue? And since he hadn’t revealed it, why is it anything suggestive that he received the appointment in the first place?

    Are you completely obtuse? When it was revealed that – yes, Kissinger represented members of the Bin Laden family – he stepped down. It’s pretty obvious from his reaction and his subsequent actions that this was the case. Probably some of the same Bin Ladens whom the Bush administration helped to leave the country just three days after the attack.

    Just because you are a gullible nitwit doesn’t mean that everyone here is.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  177. @SafeNow

    Another example of selfless heroism in the aftermath of that crash was when a male passenger who was in the water and had ahold of a life ring that had been thrown to him, gave the life ring to a woman nearby who was struggling to keep her head above water. He went under seconds later. I don’t think he was ever identified.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
  178. One good thing about Trump is that he revealed people like W’s hatred of Trump’s voters by transference. The neocons are all Democrats now. They don’t love America or Americans, they love profiteering from war. Good riddance.

  179. Mr. Anon says:
    @PhysicistDave

    A co-worker of my dad’s, back in the 1960s, was an industrial engineer who had been a young man back in WW II. During the War, he contacted someone in the federal government and told them he wanted to work on this atomic bomb thing.

    This earned Charlie a visit from some very serious men in black suits.

    It did not earn him a job on the Manhattan Project.

    Secrets are indeed very hard to keep.

    So, a few pieces of truth slipped through the official wall of secrecy. Does that mean that the whole project was not enshrouded in a deliberate veil of secrecy? That whole Manhattan Project thing – that was just a conspiracy theory then? It never happened?

    The point that the more serious 9/11 “conspiracy theorists” have made when asked “why weren’t there any whistleblowers?” is “There were. They just haven’t been taken seriously by the media.” Do you think the media really would pursue any such claims seriously? Did they seriously question the last twenty years of warring in the middle-east? Lots of anomalous events surrounding 9/11 HAVE been made public – were even reported in the first few days after the attack – they simply were not followed up by officialdom. Do you imagine – based on your own experiences which you have recently shared here – that officialdom is really interested in the truth? Or is really on your side?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  180. @PhysicistDave

    For Goodness’ sake Dave, Faraday is joking/sarcastic. Even physicists are allowed a sense of humor.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
  181. @PhysicistDave

    He was making a funny, Dave, lampooning the comment to which he was responding.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  182. JMcG says:
    @PhysicistDave

    The Ultra signals intelligence program seems to have been kept secret for many years after the Second World War and there were thousands of people involved with that.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  183. @allergic2katz

    Thats a great question…i mean if you watch building 7 fall it pretty much kills the whole narrative.As much as I appreciate the SS blog these blindspots make little sense.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  184. @AceDeuce

    “How much more stupid is this culture going to get?”

    When you ask questions like this, you had better be prepared to hold the beers of lots of people.

    • LOL: Almost Missouri
  185. Thomas says:
    @gcochran

    Thanks. I would know him as Endo from Lethal Weapon and Genghis Khan from Bill & Ted 1.

  186. Dube says:
    @Art Deco

    Assuredly, he did answer your question.

  187. By-tor says:
    @kaganovitch

    Personally, I never believed the stories about Flight 93. The Bush II Admin. and ‘US intel agencies’ and are now known to have lied for over 20 years about about Afghanistan and Iraq, so why people want to believe them about 9-11-01 is a head scratcher.

  188. Mr. Anon says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I mean, seriously, Nazis? LOL.

    In Hollywood, it’s always Nazi-Time.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  189. @kaganovitch

    kaganovitch wrote to me:

    For Goodness’ sake Dave, Faraday is joking/sarcastic. Even physicists are allowed a sense of humor.

    Is he?

    It’s impossible to tell nowadays.

    As you know, a former GOP President just compared the January 6 protesters to the 9/11 terrorists.

    Was GWB just engaged in a overly subtle attempt at humor?

  190. Bush II is obituary-shopping. Apparently, he and his ghostwriter concluded that the comparison in question was the safest one, for sucking up to the msm and antiversity.

    As for the line about the WTC, I didn’t get the joke, either. I see too many statements from truthers that are just as dishonest/crazy, and clearly, not meant as jokes.

  191. FPD72 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Buzz, was it The Sum of All Fears from 2002? I don’t read novels like that, but I wonder if the book did have the Moslems as the perpetrators.

    Yes, the novel upon which the 2002 movie was based, by Tom Clancy, involved Muslim terrorists who planted a nuclear weapon at the Super Bowl in Denver. Although it was intended to be a thermonuclear device, only the Plutonium trigger detonated, failing to cause a fusion reaction with the deuterium and tritium that had been added.

    I had read the novel when it came out so I was extremely disappointed with the change of villains, recognizing that CAIR had no doubt been influential in getting the change made.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  192. @Thomas

    I hated that. F’ing despicable. Ruined the movie for me. Probably didn’t help that the guy’s first name was “Christian” either.

  193. Bernard says:

    It’s amazing what a bunch of (mostly straight) angry white males can do when they put their heads to it.

  194. Alden says:
    @Verymuchalive

    My college had a rugby team in the early 1960s. Also golf and dressage and other not black sports. Big colleges have all sorts of obscure sports. Well, Golf isn’t Nephew played rugby for his high school team and the United States Navy rugby team. It’s for men who want to play something a lot rougher than soccer.Like football and ghetto basketball, players have to enjoy slamming into each other. If you enjoy that Rugby’s the sport for you. Lots of amateur rugby leagues around.

    • Thanks: Verymuchalive
    • Replies: @LP5
  195. Alden says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Charlie wasn’t hired because he wasn’t a Jewish communist immigrant. From David Greenglass in the machine shop to Oppenheimer the head of the entire project I think the only person not a communist Jew was Enrico Fermi.

    David Greenglass He was a skilled machinist with management experience in his civilian career. So qualified for Los Alamos. But of the hundred thousand or so skilled machinists in the country it’s pretty obvious why Ethel Rosenberg’s brother was selected to supervise the Los Alamos machine shop. And personally made the prototype of the bomb.

    Good thing Roosevelt died when he did. Otherwise he and his Jews would have given the America to Russia as he did Eastern Europe.

  196. @JMcG

    I’m old enough to remember reading cover stories for Project Ultra.

  197. SafeNow says:
    @Alphonse (But you can call me Al) Anon

    Thank you, Al. Actually, he was later identified as Arland Williams. The bridge was renamed after him, and there are memorials at his alma mater. He was posthumously awarded the Coast Guard Gold Lifesaving Medal, as was Lenny. The USCG does not give out many of these, maybe one every few years on average. – SafeNow

  198. Mr. Anon says:
    @Alden

    Oppenheimer was never a communist party member. He was a sympathizer in the 30s. By the time the war started he had soured on it. Greenglass was a machinist, not the supervisor of the machine shop (not that I’ve ever read anyway – if you have evidence that he was, present it), nor did he “personally make the prototype of the bomb”.

    As is so often the case, the Women of Alden have no idea what they are talking about.

  199. @Jack D

    There was some French Moroccan muslim guy, Masassoui (sp?) who got picked up by the FBI in the weeks before 9/11. He was supposed to be another hijacker or possibly a sub if one backed out. He obviously knew about Al Qaeda’s “conspiracy” but apparently kept their secret while his comrades were still alive and planning. Anyway, point is secrets are not that hard to keep in strict or punitive organization.

    I don’t think a decision to shoot down Flight 93 would have necessarily involved that many actors, either.

  200. @J.Ross

    Apparently Mark is under the misapprehension that the 9/11 hijackings were each carried out by a lone feeble, aged Vietnamese man.

  201. Mr. Anon says:
    @Alden

    From David Greenglass in the machine shop to Oppenheimer the head of the entire project I think the only person not a communist Jew was Enrico Fermi.

    \

    Oppenheimer was never a communist party member. He was a sympathizer in the 30s, and by the start of the war had soured on it. Hans Bethe (half Jewish) wasn’t a communist. Edward Teller was anti-communist. James Tuck, Deak Parsons, Norris Bradbury, Seth Neddermeyer – not Jewish.

    Klaus Fuchs, like Greenglass a communist Soviet agent working on the project, was from a Quaker family.

    But by now nobody expects anything you say to be accurate.

  202. @Alden

    Alden wrote to me:

    Charlie wasn’t hired because he wasn’t a Jewish communist immigrant

    Well… Dick Feynman was a Jewish libertarian Republican from Far Rockaway, and he was on the Manhattan Project.

    So they weren’t all Communists!

    Seriously, while Jews certainly lean left statistically, I know of a number of Jews of that generation who were independent thinkers and were clearly either conservatives or libertarians.

    And even among the Jews who were clearly leftists — I have in mind Hannah Arendt, for example — there were a number who saw through the Stalinist lies and atrocities.

    Statistics do not tell everything.

  203. @Hi There

    The heroes of Flight 93 are the kind of gouts who likely would have voted for Trump in 2016.

    Darren Beattie made a good point about Bush’s speech: after 9/11, Bush went out of his way to attribute terrorism to a tiny minority who “hijacked” the wonderful religion of Islam, but he made no similar attempt to narrow the target when it came to Trump Supporters.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Thanks: Dan Hayes
  204. At the northernmost tip of Japan, Cape Soya, is a crane-shaped memorial to the victims of the 1983 Korean Air crash nearby.

    There are several other peace-themed monuments there. Just don’t confuse it with the much less serious cemetery at the other end of Hokkaido.

  205. @Mr. Anon

    Mr. Anon asked me:

    The point that the more serious 9/11 “conspiracy theorists” have made when asked “why weren’t there any whistleblowers?” is “There were. They just haven’t been taken seriously by the media.” Do you think the media really would pursue any such claims seriously?

    Well…. I do not know for sure what happened on 9/11.

    But the problem with most of the conspiracy theories — about the Holocaust, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, etc. — is that the conspiracy guys tend to claim that they have “smoking gun” proof of their theories.

    But whenever I have checked out the supposed smoking guns… well, they just do not check out.

    For example, one of the main claims about 9/11 is that the towers could not have collapsed as they did unless demo crews went in and set explosives.

    How do the conspiracy theorists know this? I am a physicist: last night I ran through the math on how the tower collapse would proceed ignoring air resistance. The calculation including air resistance would be harder — not just simple pencil and paper — but doable.

    The 9/11 truthers claim they have STEM people who have done that calculation.

    Fine — where is it? I am a physicist turned engineer: if the details of their calculations cannot be presented so that I can understand them, why should anyone take them seriously?

    Mr. Anon also asked me:

    Did they seriously question the last twenty years of warring in the middle-east? Lots of anomalous events surrounding 9/11 HAVE been made public – were even reported in the first few days after the attack – they simply were not followed up by officialdom. Do you imagine – based on your own experiences which you have recently shared here – that officialdom is really interested in the truth? Or is really on your side?

    No, but that does not mean reason and evidence do not matter.

    I have pointed out from early on that anyone with any extensive experience in STEM labs knows that accidents happen. A lot. So, the lab-leak theory for Covid should always have been taken seriously.

    But saying that 9/11 may not have been what they told us is just not enough. There needs to be evidence. And, yeah, maybe they are lying and maybe the evidence will never turn up.

    And then we will just never know.

    By the way, Pepe Escobar currently claims to have inside dope from someone on the inside of the Deep State on 9/11 that he has been tweeting about. But without knowing who his source is or how reliable the guy is… well, we just don’t know.

  206. Wait a minute… if these guys were tackling and disabling Arabs, doesn’t that make them white supremacists?

  207. @JohnnyWalker123

    JohnnyWalker123 wrote:

    Nearly 10,000 Americans died on 9/11/2001. Roughly 30% of those died in the terrorist attacks, while the remaining 70% died of the routine causes (heart disease, cancer, traffic accidents, suicide, pneumonia) that kill people every day.

    It is impossible to overstate just how minuscule the death toll was on 9/11. Hardly anybody died. It’s a trivial number of deaths.

    All true, of course, and you do not seem to have triggered anyone here (yet).

    But try getting up on a soapboz in a public place and pointing that out.

    I assume you were an adult on 9/11? It was deeply shocking — the WTC was iconic (even though, in truth, pretty ugly). And we did not know if this was just the beginning — what was next? Sears Tower, the Hancock Building or TransAnerica Building? Maybe Disneyland or Yankee Stadium (yeah, I know, not really logical targets — at least not with planes).

    And a life lost due to murder really is something that requires a social response as opposed to a life lost to accident or old age.

    But of course the over-reaction you describe was the goal the terrorists were striving for. We played into their hands.

    Allowing emotion to dominate reason is usually not a great idea.

    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
  208. @FPD72

    Thanks FPD, and thanks TWGH, Ralph, and Chris for the same.

  209. I wish whites males would start learning from their situation. If they had not stopped the flight, we may have at least gotten something out of it if the plane had hit the Capitol and killed a few of the psychopaths in it. But just like how 85% of those dying in the senseless wars to keep the white man away from home so he can’t get involved in the real war against him, the dumb white man also sacrificed himself on that plane so that the psychopathic ruling class could have their way with him and his women and children.

    Great job, dummies. Can you finally start getting a clue that you’re just being played? It’s been at absolute minimum 100 years now since you were sent to destroy yourselves and your own interests in WWI and every single conflict since. How are you not getting it, white male? I got it, what is wrong with you that you keep destroying yourself for others while you keep being destroyed by it? You don’t need any fake enemies to fight abroad, your real enemies have you destroying yourselves just fine!

    • Agree: Kolya Krassotkin
  210. @PhysicistDave

    > we played into their hands

    This point is so overlooked. It’s been true since even before we invaded Afghanistan, and yet we still did it like retards. There’s no other way to put it. In many ways, ignoring hidden hands and agendas, OBL really should be called the greatest military mine in human history. He so thoroughly understood his enemy that he knew exactly how to defeat us with a psychological manipulation that is nearly as flawless as it could have been, all rolling out over 20 years.

    His recordings from roughly 20 years were quite clear in his objective of drawing us in to make us waste our efforts, lives, and treasure to make us damage ourselves due to our own hubris, decadence, excesses, and degeneracy. There’s nothing anyone can credibly say that would belay his essentially flawless victory. His strategy was so flawless that it even continued into our ultimate humiliation of the Afghan withdraw, after he has purportedly more been dead for years. Show me one example of another military strategist/leader who had achieved victory years after his death.

    We achieved NOTHING and we lost EVERYTHING, and we still haven’t comprehend it yet, even as the same psychopathic evil ruling puppets that got us into the unmitigated failure, are now turning on their own people that they abused and destroyed for the last 20 years on top of all the other evil and murders they committed.

    In many ways people may not want to acknowledge; we are all now OBL as Bush said in his 9/11/2021 speech, and OBL was right all along it turns out.

  211. @guest007

    I travel quite a bit, Guest-007. You’re remembering this wrong. Whatever deal with the bums inside O’Hare was a business problem and nothing to do with the Security Theater.

    One could see off friends and family or greet them coming in at the gate right up just past 9/11, til the TSA got going.

    There is a fundamental thing that changed then, and this is something that (unfortunately) quite a few commenters here would support, as they seem to value the Police State and War on Terra more than privacy and Constitutional Rights. That is, that before the TSA, there was no government requirement for the airlines to know WHO was on their flights. They just cared that people PAID.

    In the 1990s I had an instance in which I used someone else’s half of a round-trip ticket to fly. In this case, I drove the guy’s car across most of the country and used his ticket back, as he’d moved there. It worked out great. Granted, if it were a girl’s name, the airline could have told me I couldn’t use it, but the main point was “hey, the ticket was paid for”. Nobody had to show ID’s to anyone – that was the big difference.

    I had a friend of mine travel with another friend’s whole family – wife and 4 kids, due to a more complicated travel arrangement – mid 1990s. No problemo.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  212. @Mr. Anon

    Indeed, Mr. Anon, and it doesn’t help the War on Terra that much when a goodly portion of the ramp workers are foreigners from certain parts of the world like the Horn of Africa, fully VETTED!, VETTED to the MAX!, I tell ya’. They are AMERICANS now, united with us against people like those Jan 6th insurrectionists.

    Of course, we’re all safe, so long as the TSA keeps searching and groping people consistently.

    I’m talking about Minneapolis-St. Paul airport, but it won’t be the only place.

  213. @Jack D

    Wasn’t that Franklin quote a requote of Henry VIII?

    Three may keep a secret, if two be away, and if I thought my cap knew my mind I would take it off and burn it“.

    (I may have paraphrased, not having Baldwin Smith’s A Tudor Tragedy in front of me.)

    Henry was quoting too!

    “Three may keep counsel, if two be away” – John Heywood 1497 – c. 1580

  214. @PhysicistDave

    “But of course the over-reaction you describe was the goal the terrorists were striving for. We played into their hands.”

    I don’t know. A load of Saudis grab the planes and kill 3,000 people, and the US attacks three countries (Iraq, Libya, Syria) that had nothing to do with the attacks, and a fourth (Afghanistan) where a connection to the attacks was tenuous, although OBL was responsible for USS Cole and the Kenya attacks.

    Iraq and Syria were two functional Muslim states that didn’t get on well with Israel, and were close to Israel.

    Libya was a functional state too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River

    Even Afghanistan under the Taliban wasn’t too bad – for Afghanistan. Stopped heroin and dancing boys.

    And we … we are still removing our belts and shoes at airports. Is that what winning feels like?

  215. dimples says:

    Jeremy Glick’s call is of interest because he told his wife Elizabeth (Lyzbeth) that one of the hijackers had told the passengers to call their loved ones.

    “Jeremy advised Lyzbeth that the other passengers had contacted their wives and husbands and asked if it were true that people were crashing planes into the WTC…..Jeremy advised Lyzbeth that he and four other male passengers were contemplating to “rush” the hijackers and asked Lyzbeth would that be okay” (quoted from “Hijacking America’s Mind On 9/11” 2013 -Elias Davidsson) p229

    Here you can see how the plotters set up the ‘passenger revolt’ on Flight 93 by encouraging them to make calls and thus discover that other hijacked planes had flown into buildings. They therefore knew that if they did not make an attempt to overcome the hijackers they would likely be killed anyway.

    The 9/11 Commission was rather alarmed in case anybody might come to this conclusion so they altered Lyzbeth’s testimony:

    “Glicks’s wife retracts certain facts:

    On 9/11 Glick’s wife told the FBI that her husband Jeremy advised her that “one of the hijackers told the passengers to call their loved ones”. Later when she was interviewed by the staff of the 9/11 Commission she said that her former statement had been wrong. Her husband had only said that “they” did not seem to care that the passengers were on the phone. Was she induced to change her story because what she initially told the FBI might have given rise to unwelcome questions about the motives of those who urged passengers to make these calls?” p271

    Flight 93, redirected from WTC7 due to it’s delayed take-off, was now the odd man out of the four flights and now over Cleveland, needed an excuse to crash in order to get rid of it. I presume the plotters had planned in advance for this sort of contingency. All they really needed to do was to get the passengers convinced that they were doomed and leave the rest to the good old American white jocks. I would expect that they all died of a gas grenade just before the hijackers bailed out of the plane.

    • Replies: @dimples
  216. @Mike1

    Bush had ordered any planes flying towards DC to be shot down and it was flying towards DC.

    True, but Bush had given the authorization sometime between 10:10 when the relevant conference call began and 10:31 when NORAD transmitted the authorization generally. But United 93 had already crashed by 10:03, so all of this was already irrelevant.

    Furthermore, had United 93 not crashed, it could have reached DC by 10:23 at the latest, which means it would have reached its target at least eight minutes before NORAD disseminated the shoot-down authorization, making the shoot-down order doubly irrelevant.

    Most of the plane was apparently on their cell phones to loved ones. Some stories have people using plane phones but the majority were supposed to be on cellphones.

    At least twelve of the United 93 passengers communicated with the ground, but I’ve never seen a breakdown of which types of phones they used.

    I tried this over 100 times at different altitudes all over the US at the time and I never got a connection once.

    Keep in mind that the hijacked aircraft all flew at much lower altitudes than commercial jets normally fly. More importantly, back in 2001, many cell phones still had analog radios (“1g”) in addition to the newer digital radios (“2g”). Analog signals had better range and wider coverage than digital signals, but digital signals were usually clearer and could cram more traffic into less bandwidth, so the carriers and customers preferred digital connections and so the average urban cell phone user was probably not aware his phone was dual-technology. I was often in rural areas at that time, so I made sure my phones had both analog and digital capability. I did receive both texts and calls on them after inadvertently leaving them on during flights in that era, so I can confirm that was a real possibility.

    Most carriers shut off their analog base stations in the mid-aughties. I’ve been flying much less in the all-digital era (and have gotten more conscientious about shutting my phone off), so I haven’t repeated the “experiment” with the newer 3g and 4g phones. Note that the Airfone® service and the 1g analog radios of the turn of the century cell phones both worked basically the same way on basically the same frequencies, so there is nothing technically amiss about both types of calls working from aircraft.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Mike1
    , @Steve Sailer
  217. @Thomas

    …so it made some sense maybe from an audience perspective to have it be a battle of wits of white guy vs. white guy.

    Not just any “white guys”, but the John McClane character is the sine qua non of 2021 deplorable: blue-collar streetwise beat cop of Irish(?) ancestry. And, as mentioned in the thread, Alan Rickman (RIP), was fantastic as the uber-cool, sophisticated German terrorist leader. Its one of those movies I can always re-watch without getting tired of it; great acting, great pace. Reginald VelJohnson is excellent as the other deplorable L.A. street cop, and pulls out a great ending sequence.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  218. @Sparkon

    The mobile phone calls show the whole story is false. They couldn’t be made if the plane was in the air, therefore when they were made the plane was on the ground somewhere.

    Somewhere out there is a video made by this woman truther who says she had once been a stewardess and she analyzes one of the mobile phone calls where the woman making the call uses some language that gives the whole game away.

    It’s more likely that the passengers were taken to an airstrip allowed to make some phone calls and then shot. There was no way that anyone made any phone calls from planes in the air in 2001.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  219. Anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:

    This reminds me of the controversies over TWA Flight 800 five years earlier.

    Early reports were unanimous that the plane had been shot down by a terrorist missile, as scores of witnesses saw such a missile rising from the water.

    Then the Navy (after initial denials) sheepishly admitted it had been carrying out missile exercises in the area. The story disappeared. Later it was ‘explained’ that the fuel aboard the aircraft had just spontaneously exploded for no apparent reason.

  220. dimples says:
    @dimples

    Did the hijackers bail out of the plane?

    “Richard Makely was the father of Jeremy Glick. He took over the call from his daughter Lyzbeth (Glick’s wife). When he got the receiver from her, he “only heard silence on the telephone, then three, four minutes went by, and there were high pitched screaming noises coming over the telephone, that sounded like they were coming from a distance from the airplane telephone”…. Several minutes of silence ensued…..Then Makely heard a series of high pitched screaming sounds again, followed by a noise which he described as “wind sounds”. The “wind sounds’ were followed by noises that sounded as though the Airphone was hitting a hard surface several times or banging around…” (quoted from “Hijacking America’s Mind On 9/11” 2013 -Elias Davidsson) p228

    So “wind sounds” are heard after all the screaming etc from the passenger revolt, followed by the Airphone banging around possibly from the wind in the passenger compartment. Sounds like somebody bailed out to me.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  221. HOOLIGAN says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Terminator 1 around the same time “Terrorists!? Libyans!?”

  222. dimples says:
    @PhysicistDave

    “Fine — where is it? I am a physicist turned engineer: if the details of their calculations cannot be presented so that I can understand them, why should anyone take them seriously?”

    Try the film “Seven”, as reviewed on the blog “Dig Within”:

    “The new film Seven, directed by Dylan Avery, examines the story of the scientific study of World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) recently published by the University of Alaska Fairbanks. The study was led by structural engineering professor J. Leroy Hulsey and took nearly five years to complete. It evaluated the possibilities for destruction of WTC 7 using two versions of high-tech computer software that simulated the structural components of the building and the forces that acted upon it on September 11th. ”

    https://digwithin.net

  223. slumber_j says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    That’s very weird about Los Gatos High School.

  224. @AceDeuce

    That’s a good point, the United 93 co-pilot was black—well, mulatto—and, contrary to Michael Moore’s cuckold fantasies, both pilots became casualties in the first couple of minutes of the hijack.

    • Agree: AceDeuce
    • Replies: @AceDeuce
  225. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon

    it was revealed that – yes, Kissinger represented members of the Bin Laden family – he stepped down.

    The term ‘revealed’ does not mean what you fancy it means.

    Taking the account at face value, he resigned from the commission rather than accede to demands he publish his client list. I take it you fancy the bin Ladens are the only people in the world who retain high-end consultants who are reluctant to have some aspect of their business public knowledge. I certainly hope if someone calls my bank or my doctor or the two lawyers I’ve used in the last dozen years they’re told to buzz off. YMMV.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  226. Dan Smith says:
    @Sparkon

    Tom Burnett’s sister is a friend of mine. Our kids played soccer together. Vermin like you who spew your paranoid fantasies all over the internet are disgusting. You need psychiatric help, possibly commitment so you can’t harm yourself or others.

  227. @Rob

    Every time I took my shoes off in the security line, I thanked all the gods that he did not hit the bomb up his ass.

    There was a Muslim terrorist who did do that

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_al-Asiri

    but he didn’t do it in America, so I guess it didn’t “count” for purposes of our Potemkin airport security regime.

    On the other hand, the Underwear Bomber was on a US flight to a US city in exactly the same way as Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber, was, yet after the underwear attack, the TSA didn’t suddenly start checking everyone’s underwear in the way they suddenly started checking everyone’s shoes after the shoe attack. Which means that they know their security checks are useless, but that people (barely) tolerate the shoe thing in a way that they would not tolerate the underwear thing.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  228. @Mike1

    Cockpit doors back then did not have the aggressive locks they do now but they were still strong and they had solid locks that shut from the inside.

    Like it or not, the plane was shot down and the families were given the chance to remember their loved ones as heroes.

    Next of kin of the passengers were able to identify their family members’ voices on the cockpit voice recorder tape, which means that the insurgent passengers were either at or through the door to the cockpit before the crash.

  229. OT

    Biden now getting trolled by 8-year-olds at 9/11 memorial events

    But at least he’s not sniffing their hair

  230. Mr. Anon says:
    @PhysicistDave

    Well…. I do not know for sure what happened on 9/11.

    I don’t either. But given that it changed this country forever – and for the worse – isn’t it something that’s worth finding out. Maybe it shouldn’t be just shrugged off as “well, these things happen”.

    But the problem with most of the conspiracy theories — about the Holocaust, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, etc. — is that the conspiracy guys tend to claim that they have “smoking gun” proof of their theories.

    Most of the “conspiracy theorists” you have ever heard of are nimrods who push laughable theories. They also focus entirely on the physical aspects of the incident which they mostly get entirely wrong. Looking at the people involved is much more interesting.

    For example, one of the main claims about 9/11 is that the towers could not have collapsed as they did unless demo crews went in and set explosives.

    Yeah, those claims are all hooey, promoted mostly by idiots. Actual airplanes did in fact hit the twin towers and they actually caused those buildings to collapse.

    I used to believe the same as you did. The stupidity of so many “truthers” and their patently ridiculous claims turned me off of the whole enterprise. But there are people who have looked into a lot of the events surrounding 9/11 – not how the buildings collapsed, but he who/what/where aspect (more like in a traditional criminal investigation) and with a much more critical eye, and a lot of what they have to say is interesting. I would recommend you check out the work of Ryan Dawson. Try to find a good long interview with him on 9/11 (it’ll have to be on Bitchute, you won’t find it on YouTube). Or look at James Corbett’s (The Corbett Report) stuff on 9/11; he subscribes to the demolition idea (he’s not a technical guy), which I agree is nonsense, but he’s a sensible guy and on everything else he has a lot of interesting information.

    Yes – you are right – you are not going to find a smoking gun. If it was a wider conspiracy, a lot of powerful interests would want to make sure that you don’t. Well, there is good evidence that a lot of powerful interests tried to cover a lot up. That by itself is kind of interesting.

    As I said – given that 9/11 was used as an excuse to massively change America, the World even, and certainly not for the good – isn’t it worth further examination?

  231. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco

    Taking the account at face value, he resigned from the commission rather than accede to demands he publish his client list.

    I do take the accout at face value as I have no reason to believe a bunch of New Jersey housewives would lie about such a thing. I would certainly trust them more than – for example – I would trust you.

    What would have prevented Kissinger from simply answering them “No” if it were not true. Would that be so hard? He never even did that.

    And your explanation as to why G.W. Bush stalled the investigation? Refused to testify under oath? Refused to testify unless accompanied by his Handler Vice-President, Dick Cheney?

    You are a credulous idiot who believes everything he’s ever read in the New York Times. Your opinions are worthless.

  232. @SafeNow

    You pose a good question, SafeNow and sorry for the late reply. My Constitutional self would tell you that the only paperwork required should be a copy of that piece of parchment at the museum somewhere. However, if you did let CCP holders take their guns, well, they have a pretty good record of responsibility and gun safety.

    As for the cops that CAN go on, who’s to say one of them hasn’t flipped over the edge?

    • Thanks: SafeNow
  233. @Hi There

    We can’t expect George W Bush to forgive Americans for not nominating ¡JEB! in 2016.

  234. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Maybe, but the pilots who said that they were prepared to use suicide tactics are not the friend of someone’s uncle but are known by name and have spoken on the record many times. They are (now) Air Force Lieutenant General and Vice Chief of the National Guard Bureau, Marc Sasseville and his wingman (wingperson?) Heather “Lucky” Penney.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/september-11-flight-93-fighter-pilots-mission/

    Maybe they are really crisis actors who made up this entire story, but in that case they should get Academy Awards because they are very convincing in their roles.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  235. LP5 says:
    @Alden

    A friend got a job on Wall Street. He mentioned some factors that led to the offer.

    The interviewer had attended a few years earlier to the same undergrad college.
    They were alums of the same fraternity.
    They both played rugby.

  236. Jack D says:
    @SafeNow

    The easiest place to start would be current armed law enforcement personnel who carry every day when they are working ( and many cops also carry an off duty weapon at all times). If we trust these people to carry a weapon almost everywhere else, why shouldn’t they be trusted to carry when they are on board an airplane? I don’t know if any cops were on any of the hijacked flights but if they had been and had been armed, the outcome might have changed.

    It’s little known (on purpose) but since 9/11 the gubmint has spent some vast amount of money flying armed plain clothes sky marshals around on trips to nowhere and back. Chances are you’ve been on flights where there was a sky marshal on board and you never even knew it. If you gave cops free tickets or even fare discounts for bringing their guns with them on flights they would do this same job for free.

  237. Jack D says:
    @Almost Missouri

    but digital signals were usually clearer

    That’s not really true, especially for 2g. The nature of digital is that you either have a stream that is coherent enough to support a call or else the call drops, whereas an analog call will hold on much longer but with a lot of distortion. So you would have a distorted call vs no call at all on digital.

    BUT, when things are working, the bandwith that a 2g digital call was allowed to occupy was very small (so they could squeeze in more calls onto a single frequency, using either code division or time division) and the compression algorithms weren’t that good, so the voice quality sucked compared to an analog call where you own the entire frequency on your cell tower while a call is in progress (there were several hundred frequencies allocated – cellular meant that the same frequencies could be reused on each tower so that unlike Airfone you could have more than a few hundred subscribers in a city).

    BTW, they are about to pull the plug on 3g service in order to implement 5g so that if you have a device that relies on it (e.g. certain Kindles came with free for the life of the device 3g service to transmit books) it’s going to stop working soon.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  238. The Craw says:

    Speaking of the TSA, agents at O’Hare Airport were told that, per the order of Joe Biden, ALL employees must be vaccinated by 11/21/2021 or face discharge. No exceptions.
    Just last week Tuesday, at least 400 afghan evacuees were processed through O’Hare in a single day. The population of Afghanistan is about 1% vaxed.

  239. Art Deco says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Which means that they know their security checks are useless,

    No, it means they assessed the risk of a bomb of a given type against the costs of checking everyone’s underwear by hand (as opposed to being alert to anomalies in scans). May have been a cockeyed assessment or not.

  240. Anon[759] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Here we go again.

    The experts weigh in against booster shots in a “We the Undersigned” letter.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/health/covid-vaccine-booster-lancet.html

    — “aren’t needed for the general population”

    — “data provides [no] credible evidence in support of boosters for the general population”

    — “side effects from booster shots such as heart problems or Guillain-Barre syndrome”

    — “Israeli data suggesting that booster doses enhance protection … may not hold up over time”

    This is Mask 2.0. Rather than saying, Yeah, those N95ers really do work, but let’s save them for hospitals, they said, No, masks don’t work and aren’t helpful.

    The new We the Undersigned eventually gets around to asserting that “whatever advantage boosters provide [which is basically zip, and remember Guillain-Barre!] would not outweigh the benefit of using those doses to protect the billions of people who remain unvaccinated worldwide.”

    We need to ship containerfuls of vaccine to corrupt countries with no health delivery system and whose peoples think vaccines are a conspiracy to kill them.

  241. BB753 says:
    @Nachum

    Ok, maybe you want to find out who the real culprits were? ( Neocons: Cheney, Chertoff, Rumsfeld, Mossad, Pakistani and Saudi intelligence.)

  242. Anon[546] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    I just watched a YouTube original documentary on the trans-Australia solar powered car race. Pretty interesting. The cars are engineered to within a whisker of what they need to be, conserving weight and maximally aerodynamic. This results in batteries that overheat and explode spectacularly. The drivers have seconds to get out of the cramped cars once they smell smoke.

    But back to what I wanted to say: Despite being a hugely geeky undertaking, it seems like most of the, let’s say, management and administrative class among the teams is female.

    I’ve noticed this recently also with the Japanese human-powered flight competition.

    Why is this? Maybe the organizations want gender parity, but women are not as into the engineering stuff, so they take what is left … which is the part which has all the power?

    • Replies: @Yngvar
  243. Sparkon says:
    @JerseyJeffersonian

    For Goodness’ sake Dave, Faraday is joking/sarcastic. Even physicists are allowed a sense of humor.

    — kaganovitch

    He was making a funny, Dave, lampooning the comment to which he was responding.

    — Jerseyjeffersonian

    Yes, just about everyone realizes that, and also that he was using ridicule to dodge my comment #53, wherein I presented hard evidence based on Todd Beamer’s cell phone records and ACARS data that UA 93 was still flying after its reported crash at 10:03.

    Based on those hard data, the official tale of UA 93 cannot be true.

    Ridicule is a common tactic to divert attention, waste time and bandwidth, and dodge the point. It’s a coward’s tactic.

    Meanwhile, Jack D is still here, still babbling away, and still dodging my comment.

    Let’s see if either Faraday’s Bobcat or Jack D. will man up, and address the points I’ve made.

  244. Mike1 says:
    @Almost Missouri

    One thing you might not have thought of here is that this was a known hijacked plane. A formal, system wide order occurring a little later is not very relevant. Most of life plays out out of sight. The odds a known hijacked plane being allowed to move on to DC at this point in the day seems like a zero possibility event.

  245. @Jack D

    but digital signals were usually clearer

    That’s not really true, especially for 2g. The nature of digital is that you either have a stream that is coherent enough to support a call or else the call drops, whereas an analog call will hold on much longer but with a lot of distortion. So you would have a distorted call vs no call at all on digital.

    Isn’t that the same thing I said but with more words?

    when things are working, the bandwith that a 2g digital call was allowed to occupy was very small (so they could squeeze in more calls onto a single frequency, using either code division or time division) and the compression algorithms weren’t that good, so the voice quality sucked compared to an analog call where you own the entire frequency on your cell tower while a call is in progress

    Digital mobile was indeed inferior vs. analog (or digital) landline, but whereas an analog landline channel was IIRC 64kbps, an analog mobile channel was only a quarter of that or 16kbps, so even a “good” connection on an analog cell site wasn’t that great, but it was good enough to have a conversation, especially if the alternative was nothing at all.

    Ironically, mobile phones on aircraft had some signal advantages: there are generally no hills, trees, buildings, or other transmitters between an aircraft and a ground antenna, so a phone in an aircraft has much greater range with less interference than an earthbound one does.

  246. @PhysicistDave

    Having been in Haiti days after the terrible earthquake of 2010, I can say that I saw many high-rise buildings that had collapsed in a similar manner.

    In an earthquake it is obvious that when the shaking starts the top floors of a building will be shaken the most due to the effects of leverage. Once one concrete floor is shaken loose from its moorings and falls, the next highest floor will be unable to stand the impact, and a chain reaction will commence.

    You could see these buildings in Port au Prince where the rebar and steel joists that had supported the floors were twisted like spaghetti.

    In the case of the World Trade Center, which was undoubtedly better built than most buildings in Haiti, the floors were made of “lighweight” 4 inch thick concrete panels laid on a steel deck with a grid of trusses supporting the floors and attached to vertical steel columns.

    However, although the building was designed to stand up to high winds without swaying too much and giving the office workers vertigo, it was certainly not designed to accommodate the crash landing of jet airliners plus fuel.

    In 1981 an Argentinian airliner en route from Guayaquil, Ecuador to JFK airport in New York had to be diverted at the last moment as it was flying too low and was deemed to be on a collision course with the WTC, so could this have given a germ of an idea to the hijackers after the failure of the 1994 bombing at ground level?

    Mohammed Atta, who had studied and qualified as an architect was very critical of skyscrapers in cities like Cairo disrupting the community life by blocking common streets and altering the skyline. He had obviously given a lot of thought on how to destroy skyscrapers. There is no doubt he suspected, or at least hoped that crashing an airplane into a skyscraper could cause it to collapse. No harm in dreaming, right?

    Well, he pulled it off and his act of war against skyscrapers, the US, and the human race in general succeeded equal to his wildest dreams and ultimately cost the lives of millions of people.

    [MORE]

    It is like the shooting of JFK by Lee Oswald. It may have been a long shot, but sometimes long shots hit the target.

    Conspiracy theorists will always try to circulate alternative narratives, because that is what conspiracy theorists do. Very rarely do they only ever believe in one conspiracy theory in a lifetime. On the contrary, they hop from conspiracy to conspiracy.

    The US public and the Islamic world are both uniquely prepared to receive conspiracy theories because of the mental atmospheres of Christian fundamentalism and extermist Islam, which are both anti-intellectual, antiscientific wings of major religions which believe in Gods that punish the enemies of the righteous.

    It relates to a kind of childish mindset. In his autobiographical essay about his schooldays in England, George Orwell relates how as an 11-year-old he believed that all adults were in league with each other, and that his misdemeanors would inevitably be reported to the authorities sooner or later. Most of us grow out of this mindset sooner or later when it dawns on us that the logistics of this scheme simply don’t work, but some people never grow out of childish notions.

  247. @Art Deco

    Im a white athlete, rugby player (played much higher level), college educated. But not religious or outgoing.

    Being familiar with those guys I can say being religious, outgoing, or pro social etc was not the factor.

    Most competitive team sportsmen in high contact sports (myself included) would act the same. Spontaneous team work is natural, there is no fear of conflict and little of getting hurt, and
    quick decision making is natural.

    They knew about the other planes and figured it was better to go down fighting.

  248. Art Deco says:

    ultimately cost the lives of millions of people.

    About 3,000 people.

    The US public and the Islamic world are both uniquely prepared to receive conspiracy theories because of the mental atmospheres of Christian fundamentalism and extermist Islam, which are both anti-intellectual, antiscientific wings of major religions which believe in Gods that punish the enemies of the righteous.

    I don’t think the crew that gave you the movie Loose Change were Christian fundamentalists. Neither is James Fetzer. David Ray Griffin was a purveyor of process theology, but that’s not a fundamentalist school of thought. It’s actually difficult to identify a prevalent conspiracy discourse that’s emerged from fundamentalist subcultures.

  249. Jack D says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    “Pancake” collapses of buildings are a known phenomenon. This was seen again in the recent Florida collapse. Once something breaks loose then unexpected loads are placed on other structural elements and these in turn fail, which places even higher loads on other elements, etc. and the building collapses in a chain reaction fashion.

    In the WTC, the floor trusses (which enabled the building to have a very open column free layout suitable for trading floors, etc.) were bolted into the structure (spanning from the outside walls to the core) with bolts that were strong enough to withstand the shear (straight up and down) load on them but the heat of the fire causes these trusses to sag in the middle into a bow shape and when that happened the tops of the trusses started to pull away from the walls and bolts went into tension that they were not designed for and started to pop and eventually there were not enough bolts to bear the load and the floors started to pancake and set off the chain reaction.

    It’s hard to know for sure what Bin Laden was thinking but it’s my guess that he was figuring that it would be more like the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building in 1945 and what actually happened exceeded his wildest expectations. Unfortunately, modern jets are bigger and carry more fuel and the WTC was built quite differently than the Empire State Building so that the results were quite different. When the buildings collapsed, Bin Laden saw it as a sort of divine intervention or a sign that Allah was on his side.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  250. Ragno says:

    George W Bush?

    The spineless creature who took the opportunity of the 9/11 anniversary to draw a parallel between Al Qaida and the “Jan 6th insurrectionists”?

    There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in it’s disdainful pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit and it is our continuing duty to confront them.

    You’d figure he was talking about BLM and Antifa, huh? Not a chance. No lifelong Swamp denizen would dare to utter a discouraging word against BLM, lest what has happened to statues and landmarks all over the landmass formerly known as “America” happen to them. And Antifa? But Antifa is the vicious playpen where many of the children of their colleagues and donors like to frolic, so that’s out as well.

    Guess that leaves you and me!

    • Agree: tyrone
  251. J.Ross says:

  252. J.Ross says:
    @Art Deco

    The only thing I can offer (and it’s not really prominent, though it might be quietly prevalent) is end times theorizing, which dovetails unnervingly with real life globohomo headlines.

  253. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    Jack, think about this, some cops are Somali.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
  254. @Jack D

    The easiest place to start would be current armed law enforcement personnel who carry every day when they are working ( and many cops also carry an off duty weapon at all times). If we trust these people to carry a weapon almost everywhere else, why shouldn’t they be trusted to carry when they are on board an airplane? I don’t know if any cops were on any of the hijacked flights but if they had been and had been armed, the outcome might have changed.

    I think the issue is, to quote Sean Connery as Captain Marko Ramius, “most thingshs in here do not react too well to bulletshs.” A jet airliner is a tube rather densely packed with civilians, and your average municipal law enforcement offer isn’t the best shooter in the world.

    It’s little known (on purpose) but since 9/11 the gubmint has spent some vast amount of money flying armed plain clothes sky marshals around on trips to nowhere and back. Chances are you’ve been on flights where there was a sky marshal on board and you never even knew it. If you gave cops free tickets or even fare discounts for bringing their guns with them on flights they would do this same job for free.

    Early on you tell who they were because the FAM look like the kinds of people who would seek out employment as an Air Marshal. I don’t know the extent that DIE has degraded the FAM.

  255. Jack D says:
    @Almost Missouri

    but whereas an analog landline channel was IIRC 64kbps, an analog mobile channel was only a quarter of that or 16kbps,

    It’s not really meaningful to talk about an analog channel in terms of bit rate but rather frequency bandwith. Each AMPS (analog cell) channel had a one way bandwidth of 30 kHz, for a total of 60 kHz for each duplex channel (AM broadcast radio channel are 10kHz, FM are 200 kHz). 3okhz is not the same thing as 30kbps for various reasons . There were also digital control channels that ran at only 10kbps but these were not used to carry the conversation itself.

    16kbps was (approximately) the data rate for digital GSM calls, which is why they sound shitty. Even worse, when the tower was busy they would sometimes cut the data rate in half. More recent technology such as Voice over LTE allows for more bandwith/clearer phone calls.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  256. @Jack D

    It’s pretty clear that the plan was to knock Flight 93 out of the sky before it could hit another target in Washington. Some of the fighters took off in such a hurry that they weren’t armed and their plan was to ram the plane taran style in a suicide attack. Everyone would have understood that it was necessary to do so and kill the 40 passengers and crew in order to save thousands of others on the ground. Classic trolley problem.

    Perhaps but there is a difference between “shoot down” and destroy-in-the-air, at least in the attempt. It may not have mattered ultimately insofar as everyone on the plane would have died one way or the other, but you imagine that the plan would have been to incapacitate the passenger jet in the hopes of a survivable event rather than blowing it to bits.

    The weakness of any conspiracy was voiced by Franklin, who said that two may keep a secret if one of them be dead. There would be way too many people involved in shooting down a plane for the secret to be effectively kept.

    A conspiracy is simply the notion that the people with all of the power and all of the money just might have had a plan.

    With regard to a shoot down, all of the necessary parties to the conspiracy could be bound by the government’s classification procedures. It’s not airtight, but it’s not nothing.

  257. @Almost Missouri

    Hey Mo,

    Did I offend you in any way? If so, I apologize. We haven’t had a good conversation in awhile.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  258. @Art Deco

    Plus the subseqent loss of lives in Afghanistan and Iraq over the next 20 years.

    It may be that the purveyors of conspiracy theories are not themselves religious fundamentalists, but I think that you will find that many of those who are mentally prepared to receive these ideas have a fundamentalist background.

    Lefty journalist George Monbiot commented on supporters of the Loose Change theories: “In other words, you must believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their pals are all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful, despite the fact that they were incapable of faking either weapons of mass destruction or any evidence at Ground Zero that Saddam Hussein was responsible. You must believe that the impression of cackhandedness and incompetence they have managed to project since taking office is a front. Otherwise you are a traitor and a spy.

    It seems to me that he is describing the same kind of mental capacity for unquestioning belief in an Old Testament God who levels cities at whim, but never appears in public, let alone gives a press conference, but communicates only via the medium of partisan prophets.

  259. Those cell phone calls were impossible to make from an airliner. All that hero crap was just a part of the manufactured narrative constructed by (((Leftist tyrants))). Just as the whole concept of “our troops are fighting for our freedom.” They were, and still are, fighting and dying for parasitic Jews. Are you in so much denial that you really don’t understand that 9/11 was a false flag operation operation by domestic Jewish neoCons and the Israeli Mossad. Those parasites have almost sucked the U.S. dry 20 years later.

  260. @Art Deco

    I don’t think the crew that gave you the movie Loose Change were Christian fundamentalists. Neither is James Fetzer. David Ray Griffin was a purveyor of process theology, but that’s not a fundamentalist school of thought.

    I have a conspiracy theory of my own.

    Since the crew that made the movie Loose Change were not assassinated by Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld to prevent them from spilling the beans, it is almost certain that they were agents of the administration who produced the movie as a clever means of distracting the sheep from the incompetence of the shepherd in guarding the flock.

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
  261. @Art Deco

    I don’t think the crew that gave you the movie Loose Change were Christian fundamentalists.

    Agree.

    Even the loopy Muslims who simultaneously assert that 9/11 was a great victory for Islam and also a frame-up by Israel without blinking at the obvious contradiction, aren’t so much expressing a conspiracy theory as simply moving in the mental track of preferred convenience. They’re not attempting to construct a workable model; they’re just saying, “Don’t blame me!” and also “F**k you!” So it’s not really a theory at all, least of all one about conspiracies.

  262. Lurker says:
    @mc23

    It depends which site and what the style of moderation is. Some sites just don’t allow links at all.

  263. Jack D says:
    @Bostonvegas

    NIST investigated the 7 WTC collapse. It doesn’t kill any narrative.

    https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-7-investigation

    The building caught on fire on several floors due to falling debris from the adjacent WTC towers. The local infrastructure was damaged such that there was very little water pressure and the sprinkler system did not operate properly/was not fully turned on in the ensuing chaos. These uncontrolled fires continued to burn for many hours and eventually the building fell down which is what happens to a steel structure if you don’t/can’t fight a fire inside of it.

    For some reason 7 WTC is a conspiracy theory favorite – I guess because it’s so frigging obvious and undeniable what happened to 1 and 2 WTC (not that they don’t deny that either) but 7 WTC is a little more subtle.

    One Meridian Plaza in Philly came very close to a similar collapse because of a fire started on the 22nd floor by linseed oil soaked rags left by painters who were doing wood refinishing. The fire burned out of control up to the 30th floor, which was the first floor above that was sprinklered. In that case the sprinklers worked and the fire was brought under control but if they hadn’t it would have collapsed just the same as 7 WTC. As it was, there was so much structural weakening that the building had to be taken down afterward.

  264. @allergic2katz

    I do have an explanation.
    Steve is essentially a “nice” person from California. I’ve known dozens.
    He is smarter and braver than most because of his relentless noticing of the reality of race and IQ.
    But he draws the wrong conclusions about the solution to these problems.
    Steve is constantly trying to figure out some horribly complicated policy where the current population mix in the U.S. can get along and thrive. As the target moves (that is to say ever more low-IQ, third-world savages coming to the U.S.), so do Steve’s conclusions.
    Steve has actually posted a number of articles recently suggesting that Blacks and Browns can rise above their basic stupidity and impulsive temperament by Whites suggesting to them that they do so, and providing gentle incentives (the kind that the BLM savages and their Jewish overlords reject out of hand).
    As if they’ve never thought of it! That will work. Any day now, Blacks and Browns will be hugging golden retrievers, camping and politely arguing about the Wine Train.
    It’s an ancient (((Leftist))) canard.
    He uses the classic (((Leftist))) ploy of trotting out the (not very convincing) exceptions of Black and Brown achievement and telling us that any day now it could very well be the rule if only we make the proper adjustments from our diminishing control, as Whites, over policy.
    Steve seems not to realize that we are in a desperate war for White and civilizational survival. The Jews have weaponized nonWhites against us and now we are very close to the end game. Negro worship is being shoved down our throats from every direction.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  265. @Jack D

    It’s hard to know for sure what Bin Laden was thinking but it’s my guess that he was figuring that it would be more like the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building in 1945 and what actually happened exceeded his wildest expectations. Unfortunately, modern jets are bigger and carry more fuel and the WTC was built quite differently than the Empire State Building so that the results were quite different. When the buildings collapsed, Bin Laden saw it as a sort of divine intervention or a sign that Allah was on his side.

    IMHO, he got more than he wanted. Without the collapse and the 3,000 dead, there was the possibility of a Clintonian response, with cruise missiles detonating over empty tents. The thousands of dead meant Blair felt compelled to publicly warn Dubya against a nuclear attack on Afghanistan. The death toll also meant that the odds of bin Laden ever becoming someone like Yasser Arafat, an adversary with whom the US could become reconciled, in a leadership role, had become much slimmer. In fact, the death toll brought about a settling of accounts against other Arab regimes that had sponsored terror attacks against the US, including Saddam’s, Gaddafi’s and Assad’s. Only direct Russian intervention, and a US disinclination to engage the Russians in armed conflict, saved Assad.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  266. @Chris Mallory

    Didn’t the bad guys in Die Hard have a black hacker?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  267. @Jack D

    Yes okay, I was trying to keep things normie-friendly without getting into signal amplitudes, etc.

    But landline sound quality is better than mobile. Mobile quality depends on a variety of factors including frequency, bandwidth, signal type, weather, etc. Even when technical advances improve mobile quality, carriers have a financial incentive to subdivide that additional quality back into more capacity and more subscribers rather than let the quality reach the deluxe—and not particularly remunerative—standards of landline.

    Anyhow, the original point of these comments wasn’t to measure the progress of different mobile telephony generations; it was simply that it is in no way implausible that United 93 passengers had phone conversations during the hijacking, notwithstandingMike1‘s inability to reproduce that on different equipment.

    P.S. From your informed commentary on prior threads, such as the 737 MAX debacle, I concluded you must do a lot of aviation-related work, perhaps manufacturer liability. But now I’m wondering if your practice isn’t more telecoms-related, or maybe you’re just an unusually well informed layman?

  268. @Jonathan Mason

    I think that you will find that many of those who are mentally prepared to receive these ideas have a fundamentalist background.

    Yet somehow the biggest conspiracy theorists keep being liberal atheists.

    Eppur si muove.

  269. Element59 says:
    @Mike1

    The truly impossible to explain part of flight 93 is the crash site. A perfect hole in the ground with close to no debris is unlike any aircraft crash in all of aviation history.

    Because almost all commercial aircraft crash accidentally, often at oblique angles (or into water) that spare large segments of wreckage…not intentionally plummeted nose-first into flat ground at 500-600 mph. What do you expect at that velocity and at that angle…a bunched up fuselage and the wings still remaining intact? It was precisely what physics would predict…a huge impact crater that roughly (not perfectly) reflects the nose/fuselage impact zone with wing impact zones on either side, and countless thousands of fragments and burn areas, inducing human body parts. So all of this alleged elaborate creation of this fake “impact” site, with all of the attention that it would immediately draw…and the Bushie co-conspiracists neglected to place large fake aircraft parts at the site so that it fits the cartoonish imagination of the public of what a crash of this nature SHOULD look like? Get outta here with this!

    “Like it or not, the plane was shot down…”

    Yet, there are no credible witnesses to the aircraft being shot down, no credible claims or evidence of scattered aircraft parts or fragments of wreckage falling over a wide area, no smoke cloud witnessed (or photographed) in the sky from missile exhaust or from an air strike and a burning fuselage falling out of the sky, no witnesses claiming to have heard the unmistakable screeching of high speed fighter jet aircraft in tactical pursuit and then leaving the area at the exact time of this event, nobody has come forward, ever, with incontrovertible evidence that the Flight 93 was shot down by the U.S. Military or by any other entity. Because…it wasn’t shot down.

  270. RANDOM

    What are the odds of having two guys in England who have the guts and hearts and brains and balls to go against the grain in gravy train England and speak honorable truth to ruling classes and central bankers and plutocrats and government bureaucrats and they just happen to randomly run in to each other at a cozy English pub and have a beer or two and some civilized conversation?

    I say if you have a modest pile of loot, which these two do, you live in the English countryside for peace and civility and you might be bothered by the nasty globalizer slobs at The Economist magazine and that arsehole mass immigration extremist Boris Johnson who want to slaughter the green belts and chop down every damn tree in England to flood more immigration invaders into one of the most densely populated nations in Europe or an island off the coast of Europe, depending on your view of whether or not England is part of Europe.

  271. Jack D says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Yes, but that was a different meme – black guys as computer geniuses. Yes, he was an evil guy but he was a BRILLIANT evil guy.

    There are a lot of black guy computer geniuses in the movies – they are sort of stock characters by now, like the black doctors in pharmaceutical commercials. In real life, not so much.

  272. Is it just random happenstance that the Leprechaun boob who was running the NSA on September 11, 2001, Michael Hayden, is a rancid treasonous baby boomer fraud who doesn’t know shit from shinola about electronics but is a good little stooge boy for the JEW/WASP Ruling Class of the American Empire and who just happens to be a mass immigration fanatic who wants to flood the USA with tens of millions of foreigners?

    Is it just random that Michael Hayden pushed to bring in more outsiders to privatize and profiteer the NSA and Hayden is in with the Chertoff Organized Crime Syndicate and Hayden is a baby boomer slob who has been attacking the historic American from within the ruling class-controlled US government?

  273. Alden says:
    @Stan Adams

    Gee, I wonder why the Clinton’s decided to spend the night across the street The exact night a small plane crashed into their bedrooms. If they were decorating their bedrooms, couldn’t they have spent the night in two of the dozens of other bedrooms in the White House.

    And just 2 months before the election. My cynical self believes the Clintons arranged the crash.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
  274. Art Deco says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Plus the subseqent loss of lives in Afghanistan and Iraq over the next 20 years.

    Why would you do that? Whatever lives were lost in Iraq and in Afghanistan were due to a distinct set of decisions by a different set of actors. While we’re at it, the person who told you ‘millions’ is bad at math.

  275. @Jack D

    It doesn’t matter if someone talks if no one hears him or if no one believes him.

    The mass media can make sure the masses don’t hear him and/or discredit him in the eyes of the masses. Those who will hear and credit the truth will likewise be ignored or discredited.

    This is elementary.

  276. Art Deco says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    It may be that the purveyors of conspiracy theories are not themselves religious fundamentalists, but I think that you will find that many of those who are mentally prepared to receive these ideas have a fundamentalist background.

    You mean the producers aren’t fundamentalists but the consumers are? How is that supposed to work?

    Jonathan, for years I was a lurker and participant on sites frequented by evangelicals. Manifest interest in conspirazoid thinking was nil. A conceivable qualified exception to that was discussion of aspects of the 2d Vatican Council in Catholic traditionalist outlets. Catholic traditionalists are not fundamentalists and they were discussing Vatican institutional politics, which does in fact run on face-to-face interactions with a modest corps of people. (Whether or not the conspirators belong to masonic lodges is another matter).

    • Replies: @epebble
  277. @Almost Missouri

    Wow, whoever vetted the participants of that picture should be fired.

  278. Is it just random luck that Zuck and many other greedy and evil billionaire filth have made out like bandits from the monetary policy extremism of the privately-controlled Federal Reserve Bank?

    Is it just random that the WHITE PLUTOCRACY that controls the US government and the Federal Reserve Bank and the mass media and just about every other power center in the USA used this CHINA LAB FLU as a pretext to loot all kinds of Hell out of the loosey-goosey monetary policy of the Fed to clam rake all kinds of ill-gotten loot out of the corrupt and criminal monetary policy racket run by the Federal Reserve Bank Organized Crime Syndicate?

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  279. You mean the producers aren’t fundamentalists but the consumers are? How is that supposed to work?

    The same way that people like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson preached things they didn’t really believe in themselves. Even the Fox News opinion program hosts admit that it is just for entertainment. Even those who put forward claims of election fraud admit that it is just political ‘protected speech’ and should not be judged by normal standards of truth as defined by libel laws.

    • Thanks: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Art Deco
  280. @Art Deco

    Did it occur to you to answer my question?

    He did answer your question, you’re just too busy preening and playing schoolmarm to notice.

  281. Dube says:
    @Thomm

    Fraternities are much more than partying. Think parliamentary procedure and the business of maintaining the organization, its property and purposes.

  282. @Jack D

    “If you gave cops free tickets or even fare discounts for bringing their guns with them on flights they would do this same job for free.”

    Would you want Mohammed Noor as your sky marshal?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Justine_Damond#Mohamed_Noor

  283. Dube says:
    @Jack D

    These uncontrolled fires continued to burn for many hours and eventually the building fell down which is what happens to a steel structure if you don’t/can’t fight a fire inside of it.

    Jack, look around and find the examples of steel structures burning for hours and days without collapsing. I’ll leave it to you to do the work. You need the exercise.

    • Replies: @epebble
  284. @Jack D

    Another stock Black character is the Black chess genius. All Black children are chess champions who will beat ALL Whites.

  285. @Jack D

    The NIST Report has been ripped to shreds by numerous 9/11 researchers, including Kevin Ryan.

    http://www.stj911.org/ryan/NIST_Responses.html

    A more recent study by researchers at Univ. of Alaska similarly rejects NIST’s findings.

    https://ine.uaf.edu/projects/wtc7/

    Finally, I don’t know why anyone would expect a government agency like NIST to be apolitical or immune from the same kinds of corruption that plague every other branch of our government (see also the NIH, CDC, HHS, etc.).

    • Replies: @Jack D
  286. Dennis Dale says: • Website

    Writing up the script for the definitive version, should be released by the Juneteenth holiday weekend 2024. Working title, Flight 93, The Disruptors
    Idris Elba leads a diverse group storming the cockpit, but first he must fight the systemic racism of a faction led by the cowardly Benedict Cumberbach. Rather than “let’s roll” a drag queen in heels leads the charge shouting “yaaas queen”.

  287. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    What I find so amazing about the more hardline theories such as that the US brought down the towers (not whether Flight 93 was shot down) is that the conspirators were apparently

    Psychopathically Evil: Yet commentators and YouBubers are unafraid of getting taken out by these folk

    Insanely Sneaky: Yet not sneaky enough for Unz!

    Irresistibly Capable: Yet somehow entirely incapable of the next, easier, step of getting the oil they did this for.

    They could arrange the tragedy and cover story yet couldn’t even get Bin Laden for 10 years! Why not concoct a goddamn cover story that you have in the bag!

    Yeah, I neither know nor care at what temperature airplane fuel can bring down Tower 7 or whatever. And I’d be unimpressed by Flight 93 being shot down over a field or Bin Laden not having prior awareness of the plan or whatever. We expect the fuckers in government and media to mess up the story and to fib and all that. But to think that the whole hijacked plane thing never happened or that these phone calls never happened or that the twin towers were detonated for the insurance money or whateve…Well, that’s the sign of a deranged mind whose hands should never be allowed to control a steering wheel.

  288. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    >I think that Americans live a very cushioned life such that they have real difficulty comprehending what real evil consists of.

    Bingo.

  289. @eded

    They foster a lot of good stuff (brotherhood, community service, leadership, confidence), but they also promote alcohol abuse and rampant sexual debauchery.

    Traditionally, lots of rich, good-looking, popular, and athletic kids in the frats. Nowadays, you see much more diversity (especially ethnic diversity).

    Up through the 80s, they did whatever the hell they wanted. In the 90s, universities gradually began to regulate the frats. By the 2000s, frats had become way tamer.

    Due to highly publicized #MeToo stuff and various scandals (hazing, alcohol overdoses, etc), universities have really brought down the hammer in the last few years. Also, cops have become stricter about cracking down on loud&unruly house parties that violate noise regulations, which has resulted in the frats being far more cautious about doing big parties.

    Recently, the IFC (which regulates all the major frats in North America) banned hard alcohol from frat houses, so that will further kill the party vibe.

    Frats can be an effective vehicle to socialize and sometimes meet attractive women, but the debaucherous parties are increasingly becoming a thing of the past.

    This film provides a realistic glimpse back into the 80s era frat scene. This type of stuff isn’t totally gone, but it’s uncommon now.

    The university party scene used to be truly out of control in America not too long ago, but they have really cracked down in recent years.

    https://lompocrecord.com/news/local/slo-mardi-gras-turns-violent-155-arrested/article_b00b2b65-a886-5885-b31a-c7fce505912a.html

    • Replies: @eded
  290. epebble says:
    @Dube

    Building fires are complicated. The failure (collapse) of the main steel frame structure depends on temperature. 500 degrees F is when steel loses enough strength to cause collapse. Hence, if it is a smoldering fire, say, paper products as in a office, it is difficult to reach that temperature – unless you contain the heat in a well insulated chamber – not a ventilated building. The main towers collapsed quickly because of tons of jet fuel (about 100 tons on a full plane) and the kinetic energy of the mass of the planes flying at 500 MPH. When that kinetic energy is destroyed in an impact, it rises the temperature. When you hit a nail with a hammer, the head becomes hot.

    • Replies: @Bostonvegas
    , @Dube
  291. @Jonathan Mason

    “could this have given a germ of an idea to the hijackers after the failure of the 1994 bombing at ground level?”

    I’m getting deja vu here. The inspiration was probably Air France 8969 in 1994, afaik the first terrorist attack to try and target an important, nationally symbolic building with an aircraft.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

    A former militant group leader admitted that the men had planned to detonate the aircraft over the Eiffel Tower. The militant group never again attempted this plot. Pasqua said that if the militants crashed an aircraft on the Eiffel Tower or the Élysée Palace, they would have committed what they would believe to be “an extraordinary feat.”

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  292. nebulafox says:
    @PhysicistDave

    >Well…. I do not know for sure what happened on 9/11.

    I’m sure that there are details that are classified. But between the bombings in East Africa, the USS Cole, and the failed attempt to blow up LAX, the shoe fits the foot. There’s usually a pattern to these things. Franz Ferdinand was not the first assassination target of radical Serbian nationalists with sponsors high in Belgrade’s government in the years immediately preceding WWI, either, and this fact mattered when it came to the preemptive war faction in Vienna winning the argument and overcoming internal Magyar resistance to war in July.

    COVID, too: Occam’s Razor has its uses. If you believe Beijing and don’t think this came from a lab, I got a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you (most Chinese don’t believe that, either: it’s common knowledge that Wuhan’s university labs have major ties to their version of the military-industrial complex), but it’s silly to think that the Chinese intentionally released the pandemic, either. Accidents happen. There’s a reason why the world’s remaining samples of smallpox and bubonic plague are kept under lock and key: can you imagine the havoc they’d wreak if COVID did this?

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  293. Art Deco says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    The same way that people like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson preached things they didn’t really believe in themselves.

    Now you’re just playing games with people. Log off.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  294. How random is this? A woman in St Paul named Kayla Pope was arrested for fatally stabbing her boyfriend and leaving him to die in the street.

    Looking for her mug shot, I found those for three other Kayla Popes, in Arizona, Georgia, and Tennessee.

    Beware of anyone you meet with this name!

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  295. @Intelligent Dasein

    Haha, no worries, ID. I’ve just been deploying my limited time and 3-comment allotments to other hotspots.

    If I had replied to your last comment to me on the Macauley post, I would have felt obligated also to reply to that strange logic hairball that Triteleia Laxa coughed up on the same comment, and I didn’t want to touch that one, so I just let the thread drop there.

    Anyhow, I hope you are well too, and I look forward to dialogue again at some point!

  296. Jack D says:
    @allergic2katz

    The Alaska study was funded by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911Truth). Doesn’t sound apolitical to me.

    US News ranks University of Alaska–Fairbanks at No. 154-202 in Best Engineering Schools. MIT this ain’t. Hulsey (age 80) is a graduate of the Missouri School of Mines and Metallurgy, another eminent institution.

    I am less than impressed by this study. His conclusion is that “the collapse of WTC 7 was a global failure involving the near-simultaneous failure of every column in the building.” In other words that it was brought down by controlled demolition. I simply don’t buy that the CIA or whomever could have wired up the building like this without anyone noticing or that they had any reason to do so.

  297. Jack D says:
    @Johann Ricke

    I think that it was a case of in for a dime, in for a dollar. Even if the towers hadn’t collapsed and they were able to evacuate the people above the crash levels, hundreds would have died on the planes and on the impact floors (the Pentagon scenario was the best case). And remember that if Flight 93 had succeeded there would have also been major damage to the White House or the Capitol as well. There wasn’t going to be any forgiveness or cruise missiles over empty tents after that, no way.

  298. @J.Ross

    Jack, think about this

    A sure-fire way to identify someone that knows nothing about firearms (e.g. Jack) is if they think cops are great shots. Some are, because they choose to be, though you could say that about any profession.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  299. JimDandy says:
    @AceDeuce

    Howard Stern is expressing total bafflement over backlash over his comment that Joe Rogan took horse dewormer. Rogan did not take horse dewormer, he stated very publicly that he took pills manufactured for human consumption, and pondered whether or not he should sue CNN for saying he took horse medicine. Howard Stern’s rebuttal is to claim, again, that Rogan took horse dewormer.

  300. @dearieme

    Oh, I read it, all right:

    A fourth passenger, British businessman Chris Norman, 62, joined the Americans in fighting the gunman.

    Norman admitted he was a reluctant participant.

    “My first reaction was to sit down and hide,” he said.

    But the Americans’ bravery changed his mind.

    “My thought was, ‘OK, I’m probably going to die anyway, so let’s go,’ ” Norman said

    Oh, dearieme, the Americans’ bravery changed his mind.

  301. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    Air Marshals have been around since the first hijacking craze in the 70’s. The program was moribund, but was reinvigorated after 9/11. They have a reputation for excellence with a handgun. Police officers do not.
    I’ve shot pistols in competition against police officers and federal agents. They are, to a first approximation, uniformly mediocre. Some are good, most are not.
    You have, I’m certain, seen all those corpulent black female cops tooling around Philadelphia. I certainly wouldn’t like them doing a mag dump at 31000 feet because of some masking violation.

  302. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    In fairness, it stood on its own until seven or eight years later. The fire burned out of control for a full day on the affected floors, far longer than WTC7. WTC remains a very strange case.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  303. Corvinus says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    “It still feels awkward to say it, but given everything we’ve learned about the global elite since then, it’s hard not to admit that old Ward wasn’t right after all.“

    Exactly. The problem is that it’s really easy to simply label the global elite—whoever that consists of—as being evil, as being a promoter of white genocide, as being a cudgel against the West. In that manner, it requires no critical thinking. And for anyone to dare question that narrative, well, they have been indoctrinated unwittingly.

  304. Jack D says:
    @William Badwhite

    Cops don’t have to be great shots. On board a plane, assuming that merely pointing the weapon would not suffice, you are likely to be at very close quarters. This is not hitting pistol targets at 25 yards.

    BTW, shooting a 9mm thru an airplane, even thru the window, makes a 9mm hole. This does not cause the plane to explode like in the movies. Essentially nothing happens. This little pinhole doesn’t even cause the plane to lose pressure – it’s like a slow leak in a tire except that the plane has compressors that keep the pressure up. The Mythbusters tested this on a decommissioned DC-9.

    In WWII, bombers used to come back from bombing runs with huge holes all the time.

    https://www.militaryimages.net/media/damaged-b29-bomber-iwo-jima.88418/full?d=1521512409

    On this one the prop broke off and made a giant hole in the fuselage but the plane still flew back to base.

  305. Corvinus says:
    @Fisk Ellington Rutledge IV

    “Steve seems not to realize that we are in a desperate war for White and civilizational survival.”

    No, he realizes it is a fool’s errand, but won’t directly say it, because it will cost him. He would rather remain cagey.

    “The Jews have weaponized nonWhites against us and now we are very close to the end game”

    So do something about it, assuming of course that Jews are the reason why we can’t have nice things.

  306. Corvinus says:
    @Almost Missouri

    “But at least he’s not sniffing their hair“

    Right, he’s just a based lad who earlier had tried to grab the little girl by the p——-.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  307. Wency says:
    @allergic2katz

    Yeah, this is stupid. If you live your life in the world and not just on the Internet, you’ll notice that people change details of stories both in their memories and in their retelling over time. And it happens even *without* the involvement of Mossad, the Illuminati, and/or the Lizard People!

    One very predictable change is that people who were peripheral to a story will make themselves more central upon the retelling, which seems to be what happened here — the operator made herself more central to the story. I’d probably go with this version being the most accurate guess: Todd spoke to the operator, said at least part of the Lord’s Prayer, some man said “let’s roll” (Todd? Not Todd? Impossible to know, operator probably couldn’t even tell for sure at the time, but who cares?), and Todd put down the phone.

    • Replies: @allergic2katz
  308. @Jack D

    Cops don’t have to be great shots. On board a plane, assuming that merely pointing the weapon would not suffice, you are likely to be at very close quarters

    You could say the same about anyone. Your original point about cops was “If we trust these people to carry a weapon almost everywhere else, why shouldn’t they be trusted to carry when they are on board an airplane?”. I may have misread that you were referring to shooting prowess. If you meant their trustworthiness, there is nothing magical about cops that makes them more trustworthy than Joe Q. Citizen with a concealed carry permit.

    [MORE]

    In fact, I’d be more comfortable with some lawyer or bond salesman or insurance actuary carrying a firearm on a plane than I would someone from say, the Capitol Police. They’ve passed a background check to get the permit, the higher IQ means a better chance of a good decision, and they’re likely a better shot to boot.

    Semi-amusing/aggravating: Law enforcement carrying weapons on board commercial flights are supposed to inform the captain who then has final discretion (as they do with all aspects of the flight). I know a captain who was informed of such an instance and (as is routine) asked the officer to introduce themselves. Usually you get some FBI guy traveling for work or a cop going on vacation. Instead, what stuck their head in the cockpit was a diminutive female who was with Department of Education (no, I’m not making this up). He told her to check the weapon. She protested mildly before complying.

    BTW, shooting a 9mm thru an airplane, even thru the window, makes a 9mm hole. This does not cause the plane to explode like in the movies. Essentially nothing happens.

    Yep. The airplane exploding is pure Hollywood, similar to breaking a bottle on someone’s head which in real life is like getting hit with a hammer. A bullet hole is just another exhaust valve for the pressurization system. Add more (or bigger) holes and eventually the pressurization can’t keep up, which just means its time for oxygen masks, not an exploding aircraft.

    Which brings me to another way of dealing with 9/11 style terrorists that pilots are well aware of: put oxygen masks on in the cockpit then crank the cabin altitude up until everyone is asleep (with altitude in the 30’s, it would happen pretty fast). Yeah you’d likely kill a few old or fat people or people with emphysema, but it would solve the terrorist problem.

    In WWII, bombers

    Most WWII bombers weren’t pressurized, though the B29 was.

  309. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    I’m impressed with parts of the reply, being a poetasting mythbuster (there is one thing they did which relates directly to a project I did in high school), but Somali cops are Somali cops, and therefore not air marshalls.

  310. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    With a few exceptions, WWII airplanes were not pressurized. Some portions of the B-29 were, and some other planes. Large bombers such as the B17, B24, and Lancaster were not.

  311. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    In this reply counselor you are making the case for ordinary gun owners armed on planes and not cops.

  312. @dimples

    I very seriously doubt anyone bailed out of any jet airplane that day, Dimples. The doors would not open if the plane was still pressurized, and, if not, you’d probably kill yourself on the wing or the tail. (This was not a 727 with a D.B. Cooper back stair, or DC-9/MD-80/B-717 with the same) I guess that was the crash itself, if anything.

    • Replies: @dimples
  313. Sparkon says:
    @restless94110

    Yes, I agree about the cell phones, but I think a more plausible scenario, also the simplest scenario, is that the 9/11 cell phone talkers like Todd Beamer were not on UA 93 or any airplane when they made those calls.

    Rather, they were sitting in a room somewhere, jabbering away, and just totally faking it.

    Instead of being shot, they were in on the plot. They got paid, were given new identities, and sent on their merry ways. See the thriller Seconds for the general outlines of this idea.

    • Replies: @restless94110
    , @Jack D
  314. @William Badwhite

    Which brings me to another way of dealing with 9/11 style terrorists that pilots are well aware of: put oxygen masks on in the cockpit then crank the cabin altitude up until everyone is asleep (with altitude in the 30’s, it would happen pretty fast). Yeah you’d likely kill a few old or fat people or people with emphysema, but it would solve the terrorist problem.

  315. Ed says:

    Kind of how there weren’t any blacks among the military fatalities of the Kabul airport bombing. Media didn’t highlight that disparity.

  316. @Jack D

    Do you have any examples where it didnt almost happen but actually happened ? 3500 architects and engineers also disagree with that summary.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  317. @epebble

    Many pilots contest the speed attributed to those planes…claiming the thick air at low altitudes would tear the planes apart before they reached the towers.

    • Replies: @epebble
  318. @Alden

    Yes, it’s an interesting little footnote in the chronicles of Clintonian chicanery.

  319. @Bill Jones

    This page of exhibits from the Moussaoui trial carries some of the photos of plane debris from Flight 93:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060615090958/rcfp.org/moussaoui/index.php?sortby=datedesc

    Go down about a quarter of the page for the photos that are specifically about Flight 93.

  320. @Corvinus

    little girl

    grown woman

    #factsmatter

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  321. @William Badwhite

    The trouble with the pure libertarian approach to armaments in airliners is, okay, you’re going on vacation with your family, so you bring your S&W revolver, just to be safe. Your buddy is travelling for work, so he brings his Sig along with his briefcase and laptop. But the terrorists who plan to storm the plane bring body armor and two MAC-10s each with high-capacity mags plus they have the initiative of surprise. How’s all that gonna work out?

    In order to avoid an arms race in the cabin of every airline flight, you are back to square one: who can be armed and how?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @William Badwhite
  322. JMcG says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Archie Bunker advocated giving everyone a pistol as they boarded.

  323. @Sparkon

    Instead of being shot, they were in on the plot. They got paid, were given new identities, and sent on their merry ways. See the thriller Seconds for the general outlines of this idea.

    There are several reasons I doubt that to be true.
    1. They would have had to be enlisted way before flitght day
    2. All passengers would have to have agreed with all you name-change stuff
    3. None of those assigned to live another day as another person–suddenly where everything you know and love is totally left behind–ever thinks better of that deal and comes forward.

    No, if that was the way it went down, no one would be left. They would have been eliminated. And what is a few murders to these people? They have no problem with it.

    You can believe in your theory, but I will believe in mine.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  324. How about they were all fake.

    They were never in a plane on that day. If the names belonged to actual people, the names were supplied by county morgues from recent deaths, from families with a background in government service. Definitely not random.

    Just another faked event.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  325. @YetAnotherAnon

    The inspiration was probably Air France 8969 in 1994, afaik the first terrorist attack to try and target an important, nationally symbolic building with an aircraft.

    There was a reasonably good French film about this, L’Assaut, released in 2010 or 2011.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  326. Jack D says:
    @Bostonvegas

    I am not a structural engineer but NIST says this:

    15. Why did WTC 7 collapse, while no other known building in history has collapsed due to fires alone?

    The collapse of WTC 7 is the first known instance of a tall building brought down primarily by uncontrolled fires. The fires in WTC 7 were similar to those that have occurred in several tall buildings where the automatic sprinklers did not function or were not present. These other buildings, including Philadelphia’s One Meridian Plaza, a 38-story skyscraper that burned for 18 hours in 1991, did not collapse due to differences in the design of the structural system (see the answer to Question 9).

    Factors contributing to WTC 7’s collapse included: the thermal expansion of building elements such as floor beams and girders, which occurred at temperatures hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire-resistance ratings; significant magnification of thermal expansion effects due to the long-span floors in the building; connections between structural elements that were designed to resist the vertical forces of gravity, not the thermally induced horizontal or lateral loads; and an overall structural system not designed to prevent fire-induced progressive collapse.

    I realize this is not going to satisfy the skeptics but the proof that fires can collapse a steel building is that WTC 7 did indeed collapse. This is like arguing that bumblebees can’t really fly based upon the equations – the proof that they can fly is that they do fly. So our job is to figure out why what we thought (what some people still think) was impossible on paper is in fact possible. Who are you going to believe, some professor in Alaska or your own eyes?

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Dube
  327. Jack D says:
    @Sparkon

    They got paid, were given new identities, and sent on their merry ways.

    You’re kidding, right? Most of the passengers were not homeless bums but educated people with (not in any particular order) careers, homes, businesses, investments, wives, children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. You mean that one day ever single one of them dropped it all in exchange for a payoff?

    This is really sick – think of all the orphans. Why would you give them false hope that their parent(s) were still alive somewhere and not blown to smithereens in the impact?

  328. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    Maybe they are really crisis actors who made up this entire story, but in that case they should get Academy Awards because they are very convincing in their roles.

    I’m not saying they’re crisis actors. I’m saying they’re lying. Or, at the least, engaging in empty bravado. No American pilot would do that. No American pilot should. No American pilot should be expected to. We aren’t Japanese.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  329. @SaneClownPosse

    It’s remarkable how foresighted the Deep State was, choosing to plant my boss Jeff at a marketing research startup in 1982 so that in 2001 he could send out an email to his former coworkers in memoriam of his employee Jeremy Glick. Now that’s professionalism!

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
  330. @Rob

    ‘…Point being, when you’re in a foreign country, pretty much all Americans are your tribe. Class and ethnic differences matter much less when you are surrounded by foreigners…’

    Blacks are never my tribe. Asians, Hispanics — sure.

    Blacks?

    Never.

  331. @JMcG

    Yes, WTC7 seems unusual, but that is because nobody wants to give adequate consideration to the seismic effects of the collapse of the first two towers. Not only was WTC7 heavily damaged and burning, but it also had two earthquake bombs go off right next to it. The building was picked up and dropped twice, the bedrock shocked, and the soil destabilized. I believe that is what accounts for its sudden catastrophic failure. This is only my opinion, but I think the reasoning is sound and, strangely, I have not heard the topic discussed by anyone else.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  332. @Jonathan Mason

    [The WTC] was certainly not designed to accommodate the crash landing of jet airliners plus fuel

    The sad part was that without the fire, the buildings may still be standing. The extreme heat weakened the steel.

    ultimately cost the lives of millions of people

    I don’t know if you were speaking hyperbolically, but this is an exaggeration.

  333. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Anon

    I think there are a lot of Air Force pilots who would give their life to save the life of 3,000 others. I’ll bet that if they had asked for volunteers for that mission, plenty of pilots would have volunteered rather than let that jetliner fly into the Capitol. We don’t encourage kamikaze attacks per se but often military people volunteer for missions with a high risk of death because they are willing to give their lives for a higher cause.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  334. @Jack D

    Although Eichmann stands for the proposition that all of us, even the most “civilized” men, have the capacity to do evil,

    No, you idiot. The phrase “little Eichmanns” refers to people, especially bureaucrats and sinecured functionaries, who employ the Eichmann defense when confronted with the harm done by the institutions to which they belong. “I’m not responsible for that outcome, I was just doing my job.”

    To call somebody a little Eichmann is not to accuse them of plotting genocide. It means that they are attempting to pass the buck. That was the sense of the term used in the Ward Churchill essay to which I referred, and that is its accepted usage in those sorts of academic circles.

    Once again, you have completely misunderstood the point and then hysterically overreacted to the hobgoblin in your own head. Is there anything that you actually know? You bloviate constantly about every topic under the sun, and you seem to understand precisely none of them. Spewing vast amounts of recycled verbiage in a lawyerly fashion is not the same as actually grasping the subject matter. I wonder if you realize this.

    • Replies: @JackOH
  335. epebble says:
    @Bostonvegas

    747 can fly at 0.92 Mach with no damage.

    Read about China Airlines Flight 006 that exceeded 5g at times over the Pacific and survived to land in San Francisco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006

    Evergreen International Airlines 747 went Supersonic and survived: https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/12-december-1991/

  336. Dube says:
    @epebble

    When that kinetic energy is destroyed in an impact, it rises the temperature.

    Yes, and that temperature was increased when the second plane came through the Tower and then reversed back into the Tower. You remember seeing it on television.

    Now that is hot. But is it sufficient? Phillip Zelikow says yes. But just between us, I don’t think hr brlieves it.

  337. Dube says:
    @Jack D

    I realize this is not going to satisfy the skeptics but the proof that fires can collapse a steel building is that WTC 7 did indeed collapse.

    Circularity, Jack.

    Who are you going to believe, some professor in Alaska or your own eyes?

    The eyes have it as a controlled demolition. Take a look for yourself.

    As to some dogsledder in Alaska thinking he can reject the NIST report, let’s have a chuckle:

    Hulsey et al argue that the collapse was straight down in a pancake fashion with about 2.25 to 2.5 seconds for free fall acceleration.

    “In a typical building collapse (given a localized structural steel failure) WTC 7 would be expected to experience a combination of axial rotation and bending of members, resulting in a disjointed, asymmetrical collapse at less than free-fall acceleration,” the report states.

    https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/others/2020/05/world-trade-center-7-building-did-not-collapse-due-to-fire-report

    Sure, sure. But again, it collapsed because of fire because it collapsed because of fire.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  338. duncsbaby says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Rugby is an intramural sport popular with big white guys who are not interested in devoting themselves fulltime to football or too smart for football, one or the other.

  339. dimples says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you I’m completely ignorant as to whether anybody could bail out of a passenger aircraft travelling at speed. I tried looking it up with no luck. If not then theory that special forces hijackers bailed cannot work.

    I believe Flight 93 was at a low height when phone calls were made and suggested bailout occurred. I don’t think noises were crash as phone would instantly disintegrate.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  340. dimples says:

    I recall seeing odd dips in the graph of the plane’s vertical trajectory, whether Flight 93 or another flight I can’t recollect. Could the hijackers have drastically slowed the plane’s speed momentarily before they bailed out? This would result in loss of height before the remote control system/autopilot kicked in and brought the plane back up to speed again. I will have to look up the graphs again.

    • Replies: @dimples
  341. dimples says:
    @dimples

    Also I recollect from some movie or other that all these planes have a hatch on the bottom of the fuselage. Why not drop out of one of these? Then you are not going to hit the tail or engines and end up as burger meat. Perhaps this is what the hatch is for?

    Perhaps the wind noises and dangling phone are a psy-op?

  342. JackOH says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The phrase “little Eichmanns” refers to people, especially bureaucrats and sinecured functionaries, who employ the Eichmann defense when confronted with the harm done by the institutions to which they belong. “I’m not responsible for that outcome, I was just doing my job.”

    Yep.

    Example. In the 2000s, Ohio began shutting down local unemployment compensation offices in favor of remote mail-in, e-mail, and call center operations for applications and appeals. This had the effect of empowering employers to improperly challenge legitimate claims for unemployment compensation.

    Why? Because the old bureaucrats in local offices knew very well the local employers that typically made false statements challenging the employees’ unemployment comp claims, and routinely ignored those false statements. The default position was to pay out benefits, unless the employer could successfully argue they ought to be denied. (I believe that position was in accord with the Ohio Revised Code.)

    The new bureaucrats in remote offices simply accepted those employers’ false challenges at face value, and improperly (and probably illegally) placed the burden of demonstrating the legitimacy of the employees’ unemployment comp claims on the employees themselves. People who ought to have properly collected unemployment comp didn’t get it. Most people didn’t have the time, energy, or skill to work through the lengthy appeals process.

    At least one major employer in Akron has reportedly outsourced to a management-side law firm wholesale challenges to unemployment comp applications by its laid-off workers.

    There’s much else that’s TL:dr.

    I strongly believe the state of Ohio didn’t give a good goddamn that the removal of unemployment offices to remote locations would encourage this sort of corporate abuse of a program meant to cushion people from the ill effects of capitalism.

    “Little Eichmanns” may be too strong—but not by much.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Jack D
  343. @Joe Stalin

    In the climactic assault of the title, the GIGN, armed primarily with six-shooters, assault the terrorists, whom they know to be armed with AK-47s and explosives. To my American eye, the GIGN look underarmed, but apparently this really is how they do things there.

    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Assault#Manurhin_MR-73

    Since the GIGN are a police formation rather than military, and therefore they operate amongst civilians, this relative restraint in armaments seems to be commendable policy. OTOH, if you’re the guy holding a pistol facing four AK-wielders at close range … ouch.

    In the actual event, after a surprisingly long gun battle, all the hijackers were down without getting any of the police or civilians killed, so it is hard to dispute the government’s claim that the attack went “exceptionally well”. Still, there were a lot of injuries among the police, and relative to the discussion upthread about 9mm holes in aircraft, the Airbus A300 had so many holes in it, it had to be written off.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  344. @dimples

    Dimples, sport skydivers used to jump out of a B-727 at the free-fall convention in Illinois, which used to be at Quincy but they’ve moved since, and I’m not sure if they still do the 727 jumps.

    It has a rear stairwell, named after the famous D.B. Cooper, who used it to jump out of a Northwest Airlines flight from Seattle, Washington on the way down to Portland, Oregon, with his hijacked loot. (The chances that he survived are slim – nighttime jump, at night, in the Cascade mountain range , in winter! – even with an extremely lucky safe landing, how was he going to survive to get out of the mountains?)

    Back to the sport jumpers, the seven-two would slow down to minimum safe speed, flaps out and all, and a jumper told me they’d get blasted way the hell out by the engines. They would do this at 13 or 15 thousand feet, the max. altitude by law allowed to jump without oxygen. (They’d fly the plane unpressurized.) 100 would run out at a time, then the aircraft would do a 180 and go over the spot for another 100. (All you need is seatbelts and to meet the weight/balance requirements – you don’t need seats in there.)

    Of course, the military jumps out of jets, but these lifters (C-130s, C-141s, C-17s) were made with that in mind. They have to depressurize, and they jump way aft of the engines, out the back ramp, as far as I’ve been told.

    Yeah, about those cell phones – they called them “bricks”, right? Could one have kept intact? I don’t know.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  345. Yngvar says:
    @Anon

    The gatherers are usually good at organizing. Eon’s of experience running the show when the hunters were away on business.

  346. @Achmed E. Newman

    Corrections: I know the C-130s are not jets, but I just put them in with the planes that the military uses for jumps.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  347. JMcG says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Now you know that I know that you know that C-130s are jets. Turboprops. Paratroopers use the side doors of planes like the C-17 and the C-130 in addition to the rear ramps. Me, I’ve only jumped out of Cessnas. Preferably after I’ve turned off the mags and master.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  348. @JMcG

    They’ve got turbines, but they’re not jets. Even jets are not jets, not the modern turbofans, that is.

    Haha, the jumpers turned off the fuel selector on the first load, just to screw with me. They were pretend freaking out, but we were up through 5,000 ft, and a mile from the field, so what’s the problem anyway? (Some had been known to turn off the mags and jump out with the key, but that’s why you ought to have a screwdriver on you… plus to fix the plane in-flight.)

    • LOL: JMcG
    • Replies: @Jack D
  349. @Captain Tripps

    Reginald VelJohnson

    Around 1990, I was taking my toddler for a stroll on a plane flight up into first class and the black cop from Die Hard was sitting there and he made funny faces for my son and got him to laugh.

    • Thanks: Captain Tripps
  350. @Almost Missouri

    The Wikipedia article says 10 by the built-in Airfones they had in seat backs and 2 by cell phones.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  351. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    I think there are a lot of Air Force pilots who would give their life to save the life of 3,000 others. I’ll bet that if they had asked for volunteers for that mission, plenty of pilots would have volunteered rather than let that jetliner fly into the Capitol.

    They wouldn’t be saving anybody. The Capitol was probably empty by that time. All they’d be doing – all they’d be sure they were doing – was killing the 200 or so people on that plane.

    We don’t encourage kamikaze attacks per se but often military people volunteer for missions with a high risk of death because they are willing to give their lives for a higher cause.

    High risk of death. Not certain risk of death. And even that’s usually only during wartime. Not so much during peacetime.

    Soviet pilots were ordered to kamikaze themselves into U-2 overflights in order to bring one down, should the opportunity ever arise. Somehow………..the opportunity just never arose. Shtopat!

    • Replies: @Jack D
  352. Jack D says:
    @Dube

    “In a typical building collapse (given a localized structural steel failure) WTC 7 would be expected to experience a combination of axial rotation and bending of members, resulting in a disjointed, asymmetrical collapse at less than free-fall acceleration,” the report states.

    You mean not like this:

    That looked pretty symmetrical and free fall to me and it was the result of a localized structural failure. Maybe the CIA dynamited that building too?

    • Replies: @allergic2katz
    , @Dube
  353. @Almost Missouri

    In order to avoid an arms race in the cabin of every airline flight, you are back to square one: who can be armed and how?

    Good point. A better approach is to just prohibit Moslems from flying, or even being in the U.S. at all.

  354. Jack D says:
    @JackOH

    Yep, turning down unemployment claims is the same thing as organizing mass murder. As I’ve said before, America is a blessed country and Americans have no experience with actual evil so they think that they are experiencing evil when they get a parking ticket or someone calls them a dirty name.

    • Replies: @JackOH
  355. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Anon

    killing the 200 or so people on that plane.

    There were 40 humans on Flight 93 (plus 4 animals).

    Not so much during peacetime.

    If 9/11 was peacetime, I would hate to find out what a war on the territory of the US would look like.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  356. Jack D says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Practical jokes involving airborne aircraft are not a good idea no matter what your altitude. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  357. @Jack D

    What do you know about flying, and what do you know about skydivers, Jack?

    I said I was a mile from the field and 5,000 ft up. What part don’t you understand about that?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @Jack D
  358. @Reg Cæsar

    Pope arrested for homicide. St. Paul implicated.

  359. @Art Deco

    I don’t really understand your point.

  360. @Steve Sailer

    Yes, thanks. I saw that too. The numbers come from the Moussaoui Trial in 2006 where NJ State Police Sgt. Ray Guidetti testifies about various aspects of United flight 93. He says there were 35 airphone calls and two personal cell phone calls, but he describes more than two in the text of his testimony, so maybe he means those calls were placed on two personal cell phones. His testimony is in reference to some kind of chart on display in the court room, but I could never find a copy of this bit of demonstrative evidence. He also mentions that Jeremy Glick’s airphone call was logged in the billing records as being 7565 seconds (about two hours), long past the flight’s crash time, but he says that this was because the airphone operator was keeping the line open, even though the handset was in a Pennsylvania debris field for most of it.

    The Moussaoui trial was kind of strange thing. Moussaoui’s bombastic behavior and self-contradictory testimony are already well known, but the peculiar part to me was how crappy the US’s case against him was. Moussaoui was in jail from August 2001 onward, so he obviously didn’t participate directly in the September 11 attacks. The charge against him, therefore, was a bunch of different kinds of “conspiracy”, but the feds didn’t even have much indirect evidence of his involvement. Instead the prosecutors fill up thousands of pages of testimony describing the injuries and deaths of 9/11 victims and asking survivors how did they feeeel about it. As if that that is somehow evidence of Moussaoui’s guilt. I understand that they have to establish that a crime took place in order to have something to accuse Moussaoui of having conspired to, but why can’t they just stipulate that the 9/11 attack was a crime and then move on to the (rather meager) evidence that Moussaoui was connected to it? It sure would have saved a lot time, expense and paper. Instead, a lot of the trial reads like a group therapy session mixed with an unending loop of the middle part of an old Perry Mason episode.

    Fortunately for the prosecution, Moussaoui is a low-IQ loose cannon who managed to convict himself in the eyes of the jury despite the judge’s best efforts to prevent him.

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    , @Jack D
  361. JMcG says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Sometimes the thought occurs to me that Jack may have once crashed an F9F Panther. But then I shake it off.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  362. Jack D says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I understand perfectly but I also understand that a cockpit is not the place to be clowning around. Save it for the tavern after you land. The “sterile cockpit” rule exists for a reason. I realize it applies only to Part 121 aircraft but the reasoning behind it is universal.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  363. @Almost Missouri

    Derek Chauvin’s trial had lots of “my feels” testimony too, “spark of life” is the term of art (I think).

    • Replies: @Jack D
  364. Jack D says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Moussaoui said he was innocent because he was part of a DIFFERENT conspiracy to crash aircraft into American buildings, not the one that happened on 9/11. This was not a great defense.

    There was some evidence that (even before his arrest) Moussaoui was not going to be part of 9/11 (certainly not as a pilot) because al Qaeda didn’t think he was good enough and thought that he was unreliable. He took 57 hours of flying lessons but he flunked out of flight school and left training without ever having flown solo in a small plane let alone a multi-engine jet.

    I guess it’s too much to expect that you can get a lot of top quality talent to volunteer for suicidal mass murder missions. Sure you can brainwash some impressionable teenager into wearing a suicide vest, but the 9/11 “pilots” were barely good enough to fly an airplane. But they were apparently just good enough and very lucky that day.

    Of course, your luck is improved when your enemy is idiotic and blinded by political correctness.

    From the wiki

    Some [FBI] agents worried that [ Moussaoui’s] flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission (sending over 70 emails in a week) to search his laptop, but they were turned down. FBI agent Coleen Rowley made an explicit request for permission to search Moussaoui’s personal rooms. This request was first denied by her superior, Deputy General Counsel Marion “Spike” Bowman, and later rejected based upon FISA regulations … Several further search attempts similarly failed.

  365. @Jack D

    This request was first denied by her superior, Deputy General Counsel Marion “Spike” Bowman, and later rejected based upon FISA regulations

    This feckless time server is, naturally, now part of the national security nomenklatura at “Heritage”:

    https://www.myheritage.org/news/member-story-marion-spike-bowman-silver-spring-md/

    • Replies: @Jack D
  366. S Johnson says:
    @Thomas

    The most “huh?” villains I can remember in a movie were the Afrikaners in Lethal Weapon 2, released in 1989. The end of the Cold War that year left something of a deficit of usable foreign villains.

    The villains in the 2002 Schwarzenegger movie “Collateral Damage”, which got delayed due to the terrorism theme, were Colombian guerrillas, which seemed kind of irrelevant by the time it came out. (But looking at Wikipedia now it says the script was originally written as Libyan terrorists, which would have made it weirdly prescient and probably a much bigger hit: Arnie kicks Muslim butt in the mid-east!)

  367. @Wency

    Do a little more research into the alleged phone calls (all of them, from all four flights — not just Flight 93) and you’ll find that there are so many inconsistencies and outright contradictions that they **cannot** be describing real events occurring in real time.

    It isn’t just inconsistent/changing testimony; there are also major issues with the timelines, the call transcripts, and the altitude (especially since many of the calls were said to be made from cellphones). There are also major inconsistencies between the 9/11 Commission’s version of what happened and then what they said a couple of years later in the Moussaoui trial.

  368. @Jack D

    Moussaoui said he was innocent because he was part of a DIFFERENT conspiracy to crash aircraft into American buildings, not the one that happened on 9/11.

    He did say that, along with a lot of other things, including that he refuses to enter any plea, the court is illegitimate, he is allowed to lie for jihad, and that he is guilty of the original charges …

    …but he was convicted for conspiracy to commit the 9/11 attacks, even though he obviously didn’t and the government didn’t really produce much evidence. But it did produce a lot of evidence that 9/11 made people sad, which seems to be the new universal legal standard for just about anything.

    Of course, your luck is improved when your enemy is idiotic and blinded by political correctness.

    Too true. And melodramatically refusing to look at a terrorism suspect’s laptop is the least of it. Steve posted about that ticket agent in Maine who identified Mohammed Atta as a terrorist but gave himself a “politically correct slap” for it before processing Atta’s boarding pass. But it is even less widely remembered that 10 of the 19 hijackers were selected (probably for politically incorrect [i.e. factually correct] reasons) for additional security screening. But in those days, “additional security screening” just meant that your baggage wouldn’t be put on the plane until your boarding was confirmed. (Like everyone walking shoeless through scanners, this was another elaborate and perpetual vestigial response to a bygone terrorist attack.)

  369. @Jack D

    The fact that WTC 7 fell at free-fall speed for even part of its collapse (which it did, and this was known before the Alaska study) is all the evidence you need to know that there was a controlled demolition. Free-fall implies zero/negligible resistance.

    There’s also the fact that Larry Silverstein is on record saying that they made the decision to “pull it,” and the fact that the BBC reported the collapse 20 minutes before it happened.

    There’s just so, so much evidence that WTC was brought down with explosives — and this, in turn, is just the thin end of the wedge in terms of all the other evidence of foreknowledge (Dancing Israelis, insider trading, etc.).

    To accept the official story at this point is to be willfully ignorant of all these facts. Either that, or it’s a sign of cognitive dissonance and an unwillingness to confront the (admittedly horrible) truth of what happened that day.

  370. @Jack D

    This 4-seat Cessna has no cockpit per se. It’s just the one seat and 4 skydiver sitting on the floor, fooling around, farting up through 5,000 ft (they tell me it’s just a natural physiological thing) and having a blast. Of course, the pilot should only let himself be pushed so far, such as not performing a hard pull-up on takeoff, such as that which killed a dozen people in Virginia one time (it was a King Air). When the one jump run uses up 7 quarts of oil out of 12 in the sump, it’s time to unplug the headset and say “enough is enough”.

    As for Part 121 sterile cockpit – no comment – we’re under 10,000 ft right now.

  371. Dube says:
    @Jack D

    That looked pretty symmetrical and free fall to me and it was the result of a localized structural failure.

    Dunno how “localized.” The 2018 survey warned of “major structural damage” with “abundant cracking” in concrete columns, beams, and walls. See 0:50:

    A disanalogy is that the Surfside building was only 12 storeys, but WTC was 47. The latter offers many more blinks to observe a long. smooth fall. And the video of the Surfside structure does reveal a skewed drop, not symmetrical, even in a shorter fall.

    But back to the fires in WTC7, without sprinklers to douse the flames, as you aver. Taking your point seriously, it looks like there would have been no functioning sprinklers in the Grenfell Tower either, which burned for 24 hours without collapsing:

    • Replies: @Jack D
  372. Sparkon says:
    @restless94110

    You can believe in your theory, but I will believe in mine.

    But your theory doesn’t add up. You wrote:

    It’s more likely that the passengers were taken to an airstrip allowed to make some phone calls and then shot.

    So, in your idea, Todd Beamer was “allowed” to make his phony phone call with the whole melodramatic “Let’s Roll” monologue, after the plane landed somewhere, and then they shot him.

    Why on Earth would Todd Beamer, or any of the other phony phoners, agree to make such histrionic phone calls in the first place, unless there was something in it for him/them?

    And don’t forget, the FBI learned from Verizon’s records that Todd Beamer’s cell phone made 19 outgoing calls well after UA 93’s alleged crash.

    And of course the ACARS data showed that UA 93 was still aloft somewhere in the vicinity of Champaign, Illinois at 1010 am, when the official version has UA 93 going down near Shanksville at 10:03, where it promptly disappeared into its hole in the ground.

    By the way, I can’t find the story now, but I know I’ve read that
    United Airlines had deactivated all the seatback airphones its 757s by early 2001.

    One commenter touches on that in this Quora article:

    Also, UA-93 did not have any air-fones, as is widely known, although the commission wishes to rewrite history.

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-possible-for-the-people-of-Flight-93-to-have-used-their-cell-phones

    • Replies: @restless94110
  373. @JMcG

    Why in particular an F9F Panther, Mr. McG?

    Maybe Jack was the guy in real life that John Wayne slapped in 12 O’Clock High. “Get ahold of yourself, Jack!”

    Just kidding, Jack!

    I know you know about a lot about a lot of things, but you’ll get to to arguing sometimes even when it’s beyond that knowledge occasionally. Then, when someone is surely right, you won’t write back. That’s when he’s won the argument, haha!

    • Replies: @JMcG
  374. Jack D says:
    @Jack Armstrong

    This is considered very important nowadays, I suppose as juries become increasing female and brown and stupid.

    In the Elizabeth Holmes trial, the prosecution tried very hard (and successfully) to get the judge to allow testimony by individual “victims” such as people who had gone to the drugstore to get Theranos testing and thought for a day or two that they had some horrible disease until they could see a doctor and get a real blood test.

    Having scientists get up on the stand and show all sorts of charts and graphs and equations is so BORING – the jurors will literally fall asleep. Or else some really rich guy testifying that he was swindled – who has any sympathy for a Murdoch or a Walton?

    But if you have some soap operish testimony by some poor woman (of color – even better!) with lots of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, that really rivets the jury’s attention and gains their sympathy. Finally, the human dimensions of her crime are brought home!

  375. Corvinus says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Indeed, facts matter. There is no grown women next to Biden in the picture. Just girls. So based on your cavalier attitude, it’s clear that you insist it’s ok for boys/sons to do whatever they want to women without their consent.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  376. Jack D says:
    @Johann Ricke

    I would have sentenced him to life as a groundskeeper at Arlington, tending the graves of the 9/11 dead every day to remind him of the consequences of his stupidity.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  377. JackOH says:
    @Jack D

    Jack D, you can’t possibly mean what you wrote. The wholesale and legally dodgy denial of unemployment comp to America’s “deplorables” is, well, not so bad, because it’s not like America’s “deplorables” are Rwanda’s “cockroaches” or anything like that? Don’t you believe the depravity of mind that animates genocide is preceded by that same depravity working in more limited ways?

    • Agree: Nicholas Stix
    • Replies: @JackOH
  378. @Corvinus

    There is no grown women next to Biden in the picture. Just girls.

    Right, that’s the point. Biden has a “history” with girls.

    As usual, your comment makes no sense.

    Expect to continue to be ignored.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  379. AceDeuce says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Thank you.

    BTW, I knew a woman who grew up with Moore. She said that he was roundly hated back in Flint, not least for his claims to be from the gritty streets of Flint, when he actually was born and grew up in Davison, a wealthy White suburb. She also said that, leaving out politics, and long before he was famous, he was a world class a/hole (hard to believe-LOL).

    Even now, Davison is 95% White and about 1% knigro, wheras Flint has only 35% non hispanic Whites.

  380. Jack D says:
    @Dube

    IIRC Grenfell was a reinforced concrete tower, which behaves quite differently in a fire than steel. Once steel reaches a certain temperature it starts to melt and sag like taffy. Concrete can take heat much better. There may have also been differences in the amount of fuel – e.g. lots of paper files in an office building circa 2001.

    • Replies: @Dube
  381. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    There were 40 humans on Flight 93 (plus 4 animals).

    40. Okay. How many USAF pilots would fire a sidewinder into 40 American men, women, and children, just because they were ordered to do so. Or kamikaze into it, also killing themselves, because they were ordered to do so.

    I’d guess the number to be about “zero”. Honestly – I’d like to think the number would be zero too.

    If 9/11 was peacetime, I would hate to find out what a war on the territory of the US would look like.

    It was peacetime up to that morning. You bloviate on a lot about this. Have you evern known anybody who’s flown in combat? I have.

  382. @Sparkon

    But your theory doesn’t add up. You wrote:

    Dude. Here is the deal: mobile phones did not operate on plane flights in 2001.

    That one fact make my “theory” add-up.,

    Now you can come up with whatever the fuck you want to about why that guy made 19 phone calls. My theory is that he didn’t know he was going to die.

    What’s your theory? Because any theory you have would have to start with: he didn’t make any calls at all from an airplane in the air. Meaning he was making phone calls from the ground.

    Why was he on the ground?
    Why has he making a lot of phone calls?

    How would I know?
    How would you know?

    Try to focus.
    All we both know is that no one could make a phone call from the air in 2001.

    It was impossible.

    Therefore something else must have happened with those phone calls.

    You can speculate on that. But the base is no one could make a call from the air in 2001.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Sparkon
  383. Dube says:
    @Jack D

    Sounds like a Hail Mary, Jack. Anyway, the matter does not rely on your recall.

    • Replies: @Dube
  384. @restless94110

    I recall making Airfone calls from my airliner seat in 1995.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfone

    • Replies: @restless94110
  385. JackOH says:
    @JackOH

    Well, two more T-shirts for that Million Geek Silent March next year in DC, NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.:

    I AM NOT A DEPLORABLE

    For the more adventurous:

    I AM NOT A COCKROACH

    Get an arts dude or dudess to suggest an appropriate illustration that adds to impact. If the idea gains traction, start an online merch shop.

    Let’s roll.

  386. Pericles says:
    @Another Canadian

    Hearing a lecture from George W Bush about the dangers of domestic terrorism

    Ah yes.

    Our strategy is this: We will fight them over there so we do not have to face them in the United States of America. (Applause.)

    https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070828-2.html

    That aged well, didn’t it?

  387. @Steve Sailer

    But the calls were made from cell phones not Airfones.

  388. JMcG says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    There’s a famous Jewish Philadelphia Lawyer who crashed his F9F a few years ago. I’m not one for zealously following these comment threads to the bitter end. I sometimes go for days on end without checking in. Have a good one!

  389. @Steve Sailer

    It’s remarkable how foresighted the Deep State was, choosing to plant my boss Jeff at a marketing research startup in 1982 so that in 2001 he could send out an email to his former coworkers in memoriam of his employee Jeremy Glick.

    I cannot, for the life of me, follow this logic. Why would your boss Jeff have to have been at said startup in 1982 in order to send out an email about Glick in 2001?

  390. @Alice in Wonderland

    George Bush attended Kinkaid high school

    No one beat him up.

    Given who his father was, it seems highly unlikely anyone would have dared to beat Dubya up no matter where he went to school.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  391. @restless94110

    As mentioned upthread, cell phones can work just fine from airplanes. Indeed I had cell phone conversations in airplanes in that era. It is possible that nowadays wireless carriers block airplane calls with some kind of software algorithm, but there is no technical reason why a cell phone should stop working the moment it gets inside an airplane. The notion is just another one of the bizarre canards that 9/11 Troothers insist on without evidence.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  392. Sparkon says:
    @restless94110

    That one fact make my “theory” add-up.,

    No it doesn’t. The big hole in your conjecture is that you haven’t established a plausible motive for the passengers to have made the phony phone calls.

    Man in Black: Here you are Mr. Beamer, sorry about the rough landing and change of plans. If you’ll just step into this room, we have a script we’d like you to read…

    In other words, why on Earth would the passengers have agreed to make the melodramatic but phony phone calls in the first place? In fact, there is no plausible reason for the passengers to have made the phony phone calls except that there was some reward, benefit, or gain for them to have done so.

    Cui bono?

    That reward, whatever it was, establishes a plausible motive for the phony phone callers, i.e. those phony phone callers were in on the plot.

    Of course, I hasten to add, it’s also at least plausible that the phony phone calls were made by entirely synthetic means – voice impersonation using voice morphing, voice cloning, snip and stitch, and/or other techniques. However, the use of that kind of technology to fake the passengers’ voices suggests that the passengers were not around to have made the calls themselves.

    A much simpler explanation is that the phony phone callers were in on the plot, and got some reward and a clean getaway for their efforts. If any of those passengers ever had any second thoughts about it, now the plotters would have a motive to shoot them.

    In the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the government abandoned virtually all claims about the use of cell phones by passengers aboard hijacked aircraft on 9/11, claiming instead that all but two of the calls were made from airphones.

    But at least one of the recipients of those alleged airphone calls said her answering machine recorded the call as coming from a cell phone number.

    Finally, there are statements, such as the one I quoted by the Bell Labs technician in the Quora discussion I linked in my comment #387, that UA 93 did not have operative airphones on Sept. 11, 2001.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  393. Art Deco says:
    @Rex Little

    His father in 1960 was a local businessman who owned a small drilling company. No clue why you fancy that makes him a mob boss whose children are inviolate.

  394. Art Deco says:
    @restless94110

    Todd Beamer was talking on an Airfone.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  395. Dube says:
    @Dube

    Since we’re slipping from the bottom of Steve’s list, I’ll try to add quickly. Jack, I confirm your recall that Grenfell Tower was a concrete structure and not steel-framed. However, I will retain the photo of the burning GT to exhibit the heavy smoke rising, and compare it to any smoke observable above WTC7, which is said to have collapsed from fires.

    Granted, Grenfell Towers was a residential building with flammable household contents, and WTC7 was not. So the fire theorists posit office papers and furniture as fuel, sufficient to heat the steel frame so as to cause the global collapse. But we’d have to say, that was a pretty clean fire: where’s the smoke?

    And let’s not depart without at least acknowledging the testimony of Barry Jennings, who had been inside WTC7, regarding explosions, and the utter destruction of the lobby that he saw when descending to re-enter it. How could that have happened?

  396. Gamecock says:

    Screw the credentials: they were Americans. They saw a problem; they took care of it.

  397. @restless94110

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/9/12/22670567/remembering-9-11-todd-beamer-wheaton-college-grad-united-flight-93-who-said-lets-roll-shanksville

    “Using an Airfone, attached to the back of the headrest on a seat, Beamer simply dialed 0 and was connected to Jefferson, a supervisor at the time at the Verizon Airfone Call Center in west suburban Oak Brook.”

    • Replies: @restless94110
  398. Corvinus says:
    @Almost Missouri

    No, the point is that you condone any based lad’s taking of women. It makes no difference if they struggle, so long as he grabs them by the p——. I’m surprised given the fact that you are a mom.

    #truth hurts

  399. @Almost Missouri

    Initial media reports and FBI interviews detailed more than a dozen cell phone calls from the planes at high elevation.

    Yet in 2001, a telephone spokesperson stated that sustained mobile calls were not possible above 10,000 feet.

    During the 2006 Moussaoui Trial, the FBI (under oath) reduced the number of cell phone calls to two calls made from 5,000 feet, and presented evidence of only one (not two) “unconnected” call from Barbara Olson, lasting “0 seconds.”

    In another twist, two other women reported that Caller-ID showed their husband’s cell numbers on their answering machines, which while lasting several minutes, had been made from elevations of 25,000 and 35,000 feet.

    Finally, although the FBI conducted a massive investigation into the calls, none of the telephone billing, nor any of the cell phone location data stored in standard phone company records has been publicly released.

    If you were making calls from airplanes in 2001 (didn’t they order you to turn off your phone in those days?) you must have been making them at low altitudes. There really is a reason that calls would not work.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  400. @Art Deco

    I stand corrected, though he apparently–according to the FBI–made 19 other calls on his cell.

    But there is this:

    The famous “let’s roll” drama of the passenger revolt on UA 93 was relayed by passenger Todd Beamer’s 13-minute unrecorded seat-back call to GTE telephone supervisor Lisa Jefferson, who reported Beamer as strangely tranquil, declining to speak to his wife. Eerily, Beamer’s line remained open for 15 minutes after the crash.

    You can use an Airfone from the ground, too. I remain unconvinced.

  401. @Patrick McNally

    Thanks for sharing the article. I stand corrected on the one phone call to the lady working for the phone company, even though the FBI claimed Ted made 19 other phone calls on his cell phone.

    I did find a site today that claimed that cell phones were analog based in those days not digital and that for some reason analog is hardier and would work in say, the mountains, where digital would not. I don’t know why that is exactly but it has also been said that no cell phone worked above 10,000 feet in those days.

    Ted used an Airfone and the person he spoke to said later she didn’t really believe what he said From the article you shared:

    In 2006, Jefferson and former WBBM anchor Felicia Middlebrooks wrote a book about that day, “Called,” published by an arm of the Moody Bible Institute. Jefferson wrote about how Todd Beamer “sounded so tranquil it made me begin to doubt the authenticity and urgency of the call.”

    While Jefferson eventually decided that it was Ted’s faith in Jesus Christ that was responsible for his oddly calm manner, isn’t it curious at all to you that Ted declined to be connected to his wife?

    I remain unconvinced about the veracity of the phone calls story. And since it is obvious that the plane was shot down and did not just crash, and there were exactly NO body parts recovered from the so-called crash site, I’ll stick with my original point: no calls were made from the air.

    • Replies: @Patrick McNally
  402. @restless94110

    You may be mixing 2 different people together: Todd Beamer and Ted Olson. Despite the “T_d” similarity in the names these are 2 distinct individuals.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  403. @restless94110

    Yet in 2001, a telephone spokesperson stated that sustained mobile calls were not possible above 10,000 feet.

    I hope it doesn’t surprise you, but spokespersons are often full of crap. Or maybe by “sustained” she just means your call will drop after some number of minutes. (As will any mobile call.)

    During the 2006 Moussaoui Trial, the FBI (under oath) reduced the number of cell phone calls to two calls made from 5,000 feet, and presented evidence of only one (not two) “unconnected” call from Barbara Olson, lasting “0 seconds.”

    In another twist, two other women reported that Caller-ID showed their husband’s cell numbers on their answering machines, which while lasting several minutes, had been made from elevations of 25,000 and 35,000 feet.

    I’m not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be here. It’s widely known that phone calls happened during the 9/11 attacks. It’s also widely known the planes flew low. Was the latter necessary for the former? Maybe or maybe not. But both happened, so the question is moot. Besides the FBI, the NJ State Police investigator also testified (under oath, as if that matters so much) to a number of airborne phone calls, both airphone and personal cell phone.

    The 1g AMPS phones many people carried in those days could reach a base station several miles away. A plane above 25,000 feet is about five miles above sea level (and the ground is above sea level, and the base station antennas are above that), and unlike on the ground, airborne calls have no interference from trees, buildings, other transmitters or even dense air. The airphones of that era, which obviously could make airborne phone calls, work on 1g AMPS technology too. The main difference between airphones and 1g AMPS personal cell phones is a different billing system. The airphones probably had more wattage, so the calls were more stable too.

    You can make a personal cell phone call from the top of Mount Everest. That’s 29,000 feet. The base station is twelve miles away. Or are mountain climbers part of the conspiracy too?

    Finally, although the FBI conducted a massive investigation into the calls, none of the telephone billing, nor any of the cell phone location data stored in standard phone company records has been publicly released.

    Nor has the FBI publicly released most of the other of millions of pages of evidence it collected on other subjects in the investigation. Nor does the FBI, or any law enforcement agency, publicly release most of the evidence they gather in any other investigation. That’s normal. But this one time it’s supposed to indicate some vast conspiracy? I don’t know who you are quoting, but the writer is trying to gin up suspicions over absolutely normal and routine police procedures.

    didn’t they order you to turn off your phone in those days?

    Sometimes I forgot.

    There really is a reason that calls would not work.

    They did and do work, even on Mount Everest. Using the subjunctive case doesn’t make it not so.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  404. @Almost Missouri

    I hope it doesn’t surprise you, but spokespersons are often full of crap. Or maybe by “sustained” she just means your call will drop after some number of minutes. (As will any mobile call.)

    I hope it doesn’t surprise you, but people who throw out anecdotes are often full of crap. One tell is when they claim that if you talk on your cell phone for some number of minutes your call will drop. Not in my universe, buddy.

    I’m not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be here. It’s widely known that phone calls happened during the 9/11 attacks. It’s also widely known the planes flew low. Was the latter necessary for the former? Maybe or maybe not. But both happened, so the question is moot.

    Another weasel word thing is the use of “it’s widely known.” Widely known by who, kimosabe? I’ve never ever heard anyone in 20 years say that the planes flew low. Ever. No one has said that. Why would they since planes don’t fly low when in flight. Are you saying all of the planes you flew in when you made your 100s of cell phone calls back in 2001 were flying low? Was that because the planes you were in were being hijacked? It seems to be more widely known that you are talking nonsense.

    As for all of your “data” you know, dude? Who cares? Many tests have been run on cell phone transmission with phones of that era. You can probably even still find a few of them on YouTube. They ran the tests back then in 2003 or so. None of them were successful.

    While I’m sorry that you think Mt. Everest was a stronghold for Osama and that you called your granny every hour on the hour from your low-flying trans-Pacific jet flight to Tasmania,, I’ll stick with the very real fact that cell phones didn’t work on 9/11/01.

    As for the FBI and what they release and do not release, I did not know you were a top FBI agent and knew all of the Agency’s procedures so intimately. I guess I should have known since you are the only one in this conversation who has mentioned (twice now) the CIA-weasel word “conspiracy.”

    It’s a “tell,” bud. I’ll go all “Dragnet” on ya, officer. “Just the facts, ma’am.” — Joe Friday. Something was wrong with those so-called calls and it was so wrong that the State couldn’t present them at the trial. That they did not, is the only ” tell ” you need. Good luck, pal. Don’t you have some cell phone calls to make? I hear you can do that in 2021 from a plane. But not in 2001.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  405. @restless94110

    Since you have yet to make a single citation in favor of any of your many absurd assertions, while I have advanced many verifiable facts with some citations, I’ll just leave the the matter there.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  406. @Almost Missouri

    I’m not getting into another citation war with crazed banshees who live to say the equivalent of “move on, nothing to see here.”

    The phone calls point was debunked 7 ways from Sunday 19 years ago. I’ll just leave the matter there.

  407. @Patrick McNally

    I’m sure I am. Does it matter? Clearly the odd calm and the guy NOT wanting to be connected up with his wife, plus the no human remains from the site throw the calls in the air–whether they be Airfone or cell–into the trash heap.

    Where are the human remains, buddy?

    Anyway, Todd, Ted, let’s call the whole thing off.

  408. @Sparkon

    No it doesn’t. The big hole in your conjecture is that you haven’t established a plausible motive for the passengers to have made the phony phone calls.

    And I don’t have to. If an event does not make physical sense, it does not matter why it does not make physical sense. The famous saying by Arthur Conan Doyle via Sherlock Holmes:

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

    So, dude, I don’t need to show you no stinkin’ motives. Because how could I? How could anyone? Your argument is false and fraudulent: motives have nothing to do with facts.

    In other words, why on Earth would the passengers have agreed to make the melodramatic but phony phone calls in the first place? In fact, there is no plausible reason for the passengers to have made the phony phone calls except that there was some reward, benefit, or gain for them to have done so.

    Hmm, about we will kill you? How’s that for some motivation? By the way, cui bono? Israel. And last time I looked phony phone callers with a gun to their heads were not willing participants in a plot.

    Your voice impersonation theory does have some legs though, especially with a few of the callers one of whom said This is ______, do you realize this is ____, Mom? Or wife? How many times have you called your wife or mother and talked to her in that manner? Also again, the Let’s Roll guy was calmer than a Buddhist monk in a cliff side monastery in Tibet and did not want to talk to his beloved wife!!

    As for the rest of your comment, I’m with ya, buddy. It doesn’t make sense.But unlike you, I don’t waste my time on senseless speculation as to what actually happened. I only know it didn’t happen the way they tried to say it did–and the FBI obviously agreed: they knew their phony story wouldn’t stand up in a trial.

    What really happened? We’ll probably never know.So why waste your time guessing?

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