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Was Tamerlan Tsarnaev's Grandfather-In-Law in Skull & Bones with William F. Buckley?
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Skull & Bones is an amusingly secret society at Yale that picks out 15 Yalies per year for membership for weekly “lemon sessions” in its fortress-like clubhouse on the campus. The 2004 Presidential election featured two Skull & Bones members facing off. George W. Bush’s grandfather Sen. Prescott Bush boasted of stealing Geronimo’s skull to display in the clubhouse.

Other Skull & Bones members included George H.W. Bush in 1948, William F. Buckley in 1950, and Richard Warren Russell in 1951.

Richard Warren Russell was the sparkplug of the Yale crew team that out-rowed Harvard in 1949 for the first time in 14 years. According to Anthony Sutton’s book on Skull and Bones, Russell is listed as a 1951 member.

Members in Skull & Bones have often been said to be associated with the CIA. Buckley, for example, went to work for the CIA in Mexico City after graduation. George H.W. Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent, but there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that the elder Bush had helped out the CIA with logistical assistance from his Mexican offshore oil platforms during the Bay of Pigs.

This stuff doesn’t strike me as terribly scandalous: the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway. Similarly, the British Army had long found its generals among aristocrats, figuring they were less likely to lead a military coup because they already were top dogs. That’s kind of how a deep state is supposed to work.

After graduation, Russell worked for Army counterintelligence for a few years. He went to MIT grad school and became president of James Russell Engineering Works, which may have been a family firm, and founded another company of note. He appears to have lived a long and worthy life and died in 2011.

One of his sons became a doctor, and the doctor’s daughter appears to have married Boston Bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

That’s kind of weird.

 
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  1. Charlotte Iserbyt came to possession of the membership lists of S&B. She was Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement in Reagan administration. Known for writing the book The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America. Iserbyt’s father and grandfather were Yale University graduates and members of the Skull and Bones secret society.

  2. Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.
     
    You don't know any real "upper class White girls," judging from this nonsense. Most of them don't even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.
    , @Lagertha
    It pains me to say, "what is your problem?" Whiskey, this is not even cool anymore...forget fun and erudite. Vibrators are not gonna solve issues (anyone with serious sexual issues) , but, you are becoming banal. I agree so much with you about shallow women, I really do. I also, ....ahhh forgetaboudid.
    , @Clyde
    Ignore the carpers and pygmy intellects/
    __________________

    FUMBLE IN JUNGLE RUMBLE Married Calais Jungle charity boss probed after we exposed her affair with a toyboy migrant and secret love nest

    Clare, 46, set up affair in The Jungle with Tunisian conman Mohamed Bajjar, 27, who posed as a Syrian to get into Britain
    Exclusive
    By DEAN WILKINS
    6th February 2017, 9:26 pm
    Updated: 12th February 2017, 7:01 pm

    A CHEATING charity boss is being probed after we exposed her affair with a Calais Jungle migrant.

    The Charity Commission is monitoring Care4Calais founder Clare Moseley after our .......
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2801078/married-calais-jungle-charity-boss-probed-after-we-exposed-her-affair-with-a-toyboy-migrant-and-secret-love-nest/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4141602/Lies-migrant-affair-Care4Calais-boss.html?amp&amp
    , @dr kill
    If baseball doesn't do it, golf surely would.
    , @Corvinus
    "Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls."

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It's, shall we say, way out there.

    "If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave."

    I'm sure that you, as a father of several white daughters, are laying down the law regarding how they act in public. At least throw us louts a bone here and there regarding your tricks of the trade. I'm sure as the proud pappy you are willing to celebrate your success.
    , @Olorin
    Let me guess. You're actually Jerry Sandusky.
    , @anonymous
    I am beginning to think whiskey is the Godfrey Elfwick of the Steve-o-sphere.
    , @anon
    The guy was white and athletic. She was attracted to the guy. And then got into a dysfunctional relationship with him. It's just one of those things. A lot of females are submissive or 'subbies' and don't fit the current cultural ideal of nth generation feminism (I have no idea of n). He was good enough for others to think he had boxing ability. Most parents have the experience of their kids ignoring their advice as they become older. I don't think you can blame the family for their daughter's poor choices when she was a young adult. This is pretty much a non event.

    The surprising part of the entire incident to me is that he seemed to be able to make the devices with a simple recipe and they worked without evidence of testing. Your typical Middle Eastern bomber seems to be extremely incompetent regarding the basic skills to detonate anything. The entire WoT is based on disrupting social networks. But these guys just followed a recipe and had a couple of pretty decent home made bombs. That makes the notion of spying on everyone fairly ineffective, thus undermining the rationale for the highly intrusive collection of what the agencies claim is 'meta-data' on every American.

    Maybe we have moved on and terrorists will just rent an SUV and use it directly as a weapon. But the fact that this might as well have come out of nowhere is one reason why it stands out as an incident. At least I hope we don't see a lot of 2 for 1 sales on pressure cookers.

    The CIA connection is more than tenuous, but interesting. It would be surprising if they didn't have their fingerprints somewhere around this incident. Although there are multiple, competing intelligence outfits and it could have been any of them.

  3. I think it is fairly common for some of these women to be rebellious when choosing men. It is weird she chose someone who seemed like such a loser though.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Just in my circle of acquaintances, I can think of two cases. One was the daughter of a patrician family in Rochester. The other is the daughter of a retired faculty member at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Quite handsome girls with better options.
  4. I’m not refuting or disagreeing with any of this, but I’m trying to logically form a link with what any of it has to do with The Boston Marathon bombing? Why does him having an old money wife… for whatever reason, have anything to do with him blowing people up? What did it accomplish for the CIA? Is there any link between him and his little loser brother going Jihadi in Boston and the CIA? Or is this just trying to figure out why he is in The U.S.?

    • Replies: @Thea
    I interpreted this as meaning the CIA has not had the interests of ordinary Americans at heart for generations and this sort of stupid crap is the consequence. Our elites don't care that pretty Anglo girls mate with skanky Muslims in their reckless quest to stay in power.
    , @Bill Jones
    " What did it accomplish for the CIA? "

    Are you serious?
  5. It’s not all that weird. The CIA supports anti-Russian Chechens for the same reason that it supported Osama Bin Laden and the Afghan mujahedeen against the USSR. You work together, you socialize together. And chicks dig Chechens.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    And chicks dig Chechens.
     
    One of the episodes of Married With Children actually featured some "Chechen" guy (allegedly an exchange student in US) who wins over Bud Bundy's bid to date at that time gorgeous looking young Kerry Russel. I believe the "Chechen" character had a surprisingly very Russian name.
  6. Almost as weird as the daughter of a family highly placed in the soviet MVD falling head-over-heels for a loser named Lee Harvey Oswald.

    • Replies: @inertial
    I have no doubt that Oswald's wife was head-over-heels in love with him. In fact, knowing how the Soviet Union worked, it's probably less of a case of some KGB plot to keep tabs on Oswald and more of the girl herself using her connections to get close to him.

    That's because, whereas in America Lee Harvey Oswald was a common loser, in Russia he became an exotic local celebrity whom girls would be fighting over. By the way, have you ever heard of John Reed?
    , @Art Deco
    Whether her family is 'highly placed' or whether that's just another factoid passed from one addled-mind to another in subcultural literature, she's been married for 50+ years to a man in the building trades, living in suburbs and exurbs of Dallas. What's in that for the MVD, KGB, CIA, or whomever else?
  7. I know a few CIA/secret service types and they were recruited from Roman Catholic liberal arts schools with some rigor. None are actual Opus Dei but some of the secret society stuff. Also some Big Ten Catholics.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I'm a Big Twelve Catholic, except, in my day, it was the Big Eight: CO, NE, KS. KS State, OK, OK State, MO, and IA State (my alma mater.)
  8. This stuff doesn’t strike me as terribly scandalous: the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway. Similarly, the British Army had long found its generals among aristocrats, figuring they were less likely to lead a military coup because they already were top dogs.

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..
     
    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.

    The Brits are mostly OK with their elites dabbling in dark, foreign, ideologies such as Marxism (many in the Labour Party in their formative stages) or fascism (Oswald Moseley) as long as they keep their affairs strictly domestic and limited.

    It was the wholesale nature of Philby's activities and their utter foreignness that was truly shocking to the Brits, IMHO.

    Kim Philby hated it in Moscow, by the way. But he was stuck.

    https://youtu.be/6cckO2S_4UM

    , @anon
    Apart from being considered a traitor to his country by the patriotic russians, they never trusted Philby or ruled out the possibilty of his still being a British agent.
  9. In that case, and if it is true that Tamerlan Tsarnaev got his green-card courtesy of his work as a CIA asset, what is truly weird that he chucked up advantages of connections into the elites of this country that other immigrants can only dream of—to become a doomed Islamist terrorist bomber.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control--
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    --Rudyard Kipling, "The Stranger"
  10. Steve,

    The way I remember it, Tsarnaev used his wife/girlfriend as his personal piggybank/penis receptacle. I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter’s course of action. The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter’s course of action."

    There's nothing strange about it. She made her own choices, her family may or may not have been approving. It has little to do with her father's status. It has everything to do with their outlook on how they interact with people who are NOT from their social standing.

    "The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate."

    Really, now. A traditional family of longstanding worth degenerates itself when the head of the household enables their offspring to biologically "slum it". Is that what you are saying? If yes, ask yourself this question --> how would Jesus look at this situation?
    , @Jimi
    I remember reading some British tabloid that the Tsarnaev father-in-law hated him and was glad the marriage was all over.
  11. One of his sons became a doctor…

    And tell me more about that! My eldest daughter did well on her MCATs, not a genius, but she was certainly within the bounds that make a decent GP.

    In college she changed her undergraduate major from a BS in biology to a BA in biology with a minor in Chinese studies She did this because medical schools don’t think BSs are well rounded enough to practice medicine. She went to f*cking Thailand to help build houses for the poor in order to pad her application resume. Because that’s what you’re supposed to do to get admitted to medical school.

    I know zilch about biology so I don’t have very good handle on her qualifications. All I know is she passed the tests and jumped through the hoops. So when I see that some shitload’s kid got into medical school the alarm bell rings.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    The internet is saying that Dr. Warren King Russell attended either Texas Tech or Texas A&M ('89) medical school. Either one is odd considering Russell's historical ties to the Northeast and the numerous medical schools in the region. However, if Vice President Bush had to pull strings to get someone into medical school, I suppose Texas is where they would have wound up.
    , @Triumph104
    I'm not trying to pick on your daughter, but I would like to point out a few things that might help someone else in the future.

    Medical schools don't care whether a degree is a BA or BS or what the major is. What is important is the overall GPA and the GPA for the eight or so pre-med courses. In order to increase the odds of admission, the undergraduate college should be on the same level as the medical school. For example, Stanford's medical school admits very few students applying from California State University schools.

    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American and Asian-Americans in general tend to not have many negative disparities in health, so an interest in that population really doesn't earn any extra points. She would have been better off learning Spanish or minoring in African American Studies.

    Volunteering overseas is looked down up because schools know that most volunteers are just padding their resume, something you yourself admitted. Thailand is a very developed country. They don't need unskilled laborers building houses. Volunteering in the US and interacting with people, ideally over a number of years, would have been better -- tutoring, soup kitchen, HIV awareness, etc.
    , @Sammler
    Just because we're rich doesn't mean we're stupid.
  12. @syonredux

    This stuff doesn’t strike me as terribly scandalous: the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway. Similarly, the British Army had long found its generals among aristocrats, figuring they were less likely to lead a military coup because they already were top dogs.
     
    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable.....

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.

    The Brits are mostly OK with their elites dabbling in dark, foreign, ideologies such as Marxism (many in the Labour Party in their formative stages) or fascism (Oswald Moseley) as long as they keep their affairs strictly domestic and limited.

    It was the wholesale nature of Philby’s activities and their utter foreignness that was truly shocking to the Brits, IMHO.

    Kim Philby hated it in Moscow, by the way. But he was stuck.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.
     
    Yeah, as I said, fellows who go to Westminster or Eton (Guy Burgess' school) aren't supposed to turn traitor.
    , @Moshe
    Is there a snootier accent on the planet??
  13. Speaking of interesting family connections, I think I may have found the root of David Frum’s realism on nature/nurture issues. This is fairly iSteve-ish:

     One of Barbara’s most visible and personal acts of compassion was adopting Matthew, an aboriginal Canadian boy. Matthew’s adoption was part of a huge wave of what Canadians later called the ’60s Scoop: the aggressive removal of aboriginal children from their homes by the Canadian child welfare system, followed by the children’s adoption by well-meaning white Canadians. “My mother was thirty when Matthew came to our home,” Linda writes in her biography of her mother. “She could have given birth to another child had she wished. But her angry sense of the injustices dealt the Native Canadians and—to use her word, her ‘bleeding liberal heart’—convinced her that the way to expand our family was through adoption.”

    Matthew had a difficult childhood, and as a teenager he was often in trouble with the law. In Linda’s book, her younger brother comes off as an unfortunate intruder, the incorrigible who messed up her perfect family. Her discussion of Matthew insinuates a critique of misguided liberalism. “My mother at first believed that unreserved love and affection could undo whatever damage a baby had suffered in his early months,” she writes. “But she did not believe that for long.” Linda’s father, Murray, offered an even crueler assessment. “I don’t think [Barbara] was able to make Matthew a contributing member of society who could give as well as take,” he told Klein. “We certainly aren’t getting a lot of glory out of his accomplishments.”

    In her article, Klein said that Matthew was working in Vancouver as an actor and a carpenter, which is more than either of his siblings could tell me. David mentioned his brother curtly when he had dinner. “We had an adopted brother as well, and he was younger, and it was not successful, and he’s now fine and doing well” was all he would say. Later, when I asked if he could put me in touch with his siblings, he wrote back with his sister’s e-mail but said, “I’m not in close contact with my brother.” For her part, Linda said she did not know how to reach Matthew.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/prodigal-frum/

    I wasn’t aware of this until I heard it today on the Kevin Michael Grace podcast.

    • Replies: @CJ
    I knew of it, but not all the details given in that Nation story. Linda appears to be the wisest of the family; I enjoyed some of David's early writing, but he's dead to me now.

    The Jean Chretien reference from Kevin Grace is to Chretien's adopted son Michel, best known for doing a prison term for sexual assault. An interesting article about him is here (warning: sad story).

    Related only-on-iSteve content: When he was Prime Minister of Canada (1993-2003), Jean Chretien regularly went to the Ottawa Hunt & Golf Club early in the morning, unaccompanied by security, and played a round of golf with whoever needed someone to complete a foursome. My cousin, knowing nothing of this, decided to try some golf while waiting for a plane (Ottawa Hunt is near the airport) and found himself shooting 18 holes with the Prime Minister.
  14. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Could just be a case of a young woman trying to reject her fathers tribe as much as possible or trying to find a much smaller pond in which to be a bigger fish.

    Not than many thousands of years ago young women would have expected to leave the local group, but how to do that today might be really unclear.

    But yeah, it’s weird and suggests an interesting backstory that we may never know.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "Could just be a case of a young woman trying to reject her father's tribe as much as possible "
     
    Yeah, this happens a certain amount in any family, not just WASP families. In this case, because the family was noteworthy (CIA/WASP) and the method of rejection was noteworthy (uncritical embrace of Muslim mass murderer) it made the story noteworthy. ("Noteworthy" = available on iSteve. Lamestream media ignored it, as per their usual directive.)
    , @Opinionator
    Women tend to take up with the conquerors.
  15. Amazing. Question is why would the CIA want to bomb the Boston marathon. Nothing resulted. We didn’t declare war on Chechnya. We didn’t institute TSA style checkpoints all over the cities.

    Reasonable people thought the bombing proved a need to crack down on Muslim immigrants. Liberals of course just blathered on about the religion of peace and worried about racist prejudice against Muslims.

    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    I think sometimes they use these operations as prep for other, bigger, operations.

    See what they can get away with, how they can manage the patsies, gauge how the public reacts, see how they can manage the media, etc.
  16. @PiltdownMan

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..
     
    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.

    The Brits are mostly OK with their elites dabbling in dark, foreign, ideologies such as Marxism (many in the Labour Party in their formative stages) or fascism (Oswald Moseley) as long as they keep their affairs strictly domestic and limited.

    It was the wholesale nature of Philby's activities and their utter foreignness that was truly shocking to the Brits, IMHO.

    Kim Philby hated it in Moscow, by the way. But he was stuck.

    https://youtu.be/6cckO2S_4UM

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.

    Yeah, as I said, fellows who go to Westminster or Eton (Guy Burgess’ school) aren’t supposed to turn traitor.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Philby et. al. didn't see themselves as traitors.

    As Moldbug has noted, they saw themselves as the senior partners in the inevitable next stage of humanity (past nationalism), with the Soviets as juniors.

    It's still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.
    , @Crawfurdmuir
    It wasn't Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    Cambridge was historically associated with Puritanism - this is the reason why the New England Puritans named the seat of their great university after it, rather than after Oxford. While Oxford supported Charles I during the English Civil War, Cambridge supported Cromwell. On the political spectrum of Christianity, Calvinism and Puritanism must be understood to stand on the left, indeed, some strains of them on the far left. Eric Voegelin, in The New Science of Politics, identifies Puritanism as an early example of what he called "gnostic" (vol. V, chapter 5, pp. 196-219, "Gnostic Revolution: the Puritan Case").

    Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, that great satire on the Puritans, observed that they

    "Call Fire, and Sword, and Desolation,
    A godly thorough Reformation,
    Which always must be carry'd on,
    And still be doing, never done:
    As if Religion were intended
    For nothing else but to be mended."

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    Modern leftism is a sort of Puritanism from which the Christianity has been excised, leaving behind only its fanaticism and moral vanity. It is not surprising that it should acquire so many followers in places like the Cambridges of Old and New England, which had been suffused with Voegelinian Gnosticism for centuries. As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, "Cambridge is second in all things, except treason."

  17. Are Yale secret societies similar to Harvard Final Clubs?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Or Priceton eating clubs? (Which I heard began when fraternities at Princeton were abolished, I think by Woodrow Wilson.
  18. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    You’re kidding about HWBush right? The guy was CIA stone to the bone. Late in his career he did two major cleanup jobs on operatives who started freelancing: Noriega and Saddam.

    But you’re the guy who thinks mystery meat Obama was just in a CIA zone of influence for all of those years and not actually CIA himself. Because the world would end if that were the case right?

  19. Isn’t Skull & Bones the one that makes you masturbate in a coffin to gain acceptance?

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Yeah. Since sexual revolution and Internet porn, it's lost a lot of cache.
  20. @PiltdownMan

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..
     
    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.

    The Brits are mostly OK with their elites dabbling in dark, foreign, ideologies such as Marxism (many in the Labour Party in their formative stages) or fascism (Oswald Moseley) as long as they keep their affairs strictly domestic and limited.

    It was the wholesale nature of Philby's activities and their utter foreignness that was truly shocking to the Brits, IMHO.

    Kim Philby hated it in Moscow, by the way. But he was stuck.

    https://youtu.be/6cckO2S_4UM

    Is there a snootier accent on the planet??

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    I actually kinda like it.

    Philby's accent wasn't as plummy as that of the generation that preceded him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1S9F3agsUA
  21. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “That’s kind of weird.”

    No it’s not. You see it everyday in shopping malls and parks throughout the U.S., perfectly fine white girls (or, often their parents) lugging around some mulatto (or other mixed) child. This Chechen met the Russell girl in a bar (according to her friends) and she succumbed to his brutal charms, even married him and converted to Islam. That part is unusual, the marriage thing. I see a lot about all this I don’t like–grandfather Russell must be rolling in his grave–but it’s hardly rare or “weird”.

    This is a cigar you’re looking at Sailer.

    • Replies: @inertial
    Perhaps that's the key. Tamerlan was a marriage minded alpha - how unusual is that? The poor girl must have found this combination so rare and attractive that she was willing to put up with loserdom and even Islam in order to keep him.
    , @AndrewR
    Tsarnaev doesn't strike me as black
    , @Hibernian
    What is it about Islamic terrorists and bars, strip clubs, etc.?
  22. An alternate theory could be that elite families have degenerate/screw up family members who end up with the wrong kind of people. It’s a lot like how a young woman from the Rothschild family hooked up with Jay Electronica, a rapper.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Elite families are started by the wrong kind of people.
  23. Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent

    CIA isn’t the FBI. People in the clandestine service of the CIA are operatives or officers, not “agents.” In intelligence parlance, agents are usually local assets handlers recruit.

    the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway.

    Yes, but entitled “Old Money elites” went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don’t know who’s next – Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    *The legendary OSS leader Wild Bill Donovan himself was an Irish Catholic.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.
    , @Pericles

    Yes, but entitled “Old Money elites” went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don’t know who’s next – Korean evangelicals, maybe?

     

    In this case, I'd bet on another ethnic group.
    , @republic
    Remember that CIA station chief in Algeria who drugged and raped women?
    , @Jack D

    Yes, but entitled “Old Money elites” went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad,

     

    For degenerate elites, see Aldrich Ames.

    For Catholics going bad, Robert Hanssen comes to mind. He was FBI not CIA but super Catholic (although a convert from Lutheranism), Opus Dei and all that.

    When Americans go bad, it tends to be just for $ - neither of these guys had any love for Communism (although they might have harbored some hatred for America). The British spies tended to be true believers, but they converted in the '30s when it was still possible to overlook Stalin's crimes if you wore rose tinted glasses (so you wouldn't see all the blood on Stalin's hands).

    The sad thing about Philby (not that he didn't deserve that kind of hell or much much worse) is that when he ended up in Moscow he hated it, not just because it was dreary Soviet Moscow but because the KGB didn't really trust him. KGB types are paranoid to begin with, but how could you trust a man who was a traitor to his own country? He assumed that he would be made a KGB colonel with the rank and responsibilities that title implies, but the most they would let him do was give lectures about the old days to KGB cadets - they didn't trust him with anything current.
  24. Lord Jeff Sessions,

    You may have recently found the reasons for Frum’s realism on nature/nurture issues.

    Quite some time ago I found political opportunism manifested in his hatchet job on Pat Buchanan in the American Spectator. This was a precursor of things to come in his various and sundry opportunistic political transformations.

  25. totally weird…coming from me, sheesh! I understand the thread…thank goodness my family is/was from 5 time zones away, from the backlands of Chechnya.

    As far as digging, Steve, this could be an amazing story… treasure trove. I mean, I have more or less embarrassed myself so often on this site about what happened in the 50’s-60’s in my life as an immigrant, or whenever…and later. And, sigh, you have all been very kind, even Twinkie. I wish I knew you guys in person.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can’t share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time – because, it seems, “nothing matters anymore.” I have met people in my 50’s ( I live in the North East) who are very up front about their parents’ CIA connections. I mean, this has happened often. Could it be that people are like “I don’t know what is happening with terrorism and all, but my father/mother was working in…..?” – so not kidding. I’m still confronting this! I mean, the 60’s-80’s Cold War was intense.

    My parents were never CIA, but the CIA definitely knew who my dad was (his knowledge). He was an engineer, almost an artist…kinda’ makes me feel sad now. My father was a perfect human being…so kind, so pure, so thoughtful of others…so positive – the hardest point for me. His children are not so positive and free of dread. My father felt he had to always support efforts against socialism/communism/fascism.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    you have all been very kind, even Twinkie
     
    I find you funny most of the time, Lagertha. I know this comes off wrong, but you remind me of the slightly air-headed Seven (well, actually five) Sisters school girls from my student days. Mostly amusing and charming, if sometimes incomprehensible.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can’t share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time – because, it seems, “nothing matters anymore.”
     
    You are more right than you know about this. I got to do some people killing earlier in my life. Got a bad injury out of it. There are days when I sit on top of a mountain and just never ever want to return to human society - it just all seems like a bunch of ants fighting over scraps of garbage bits. Then I remember that I live for my wife and children, friends and neighbors, and reluctantly make my way down.

    On the other hand, just when I am completely and utterly fed up with the inhumanity of most human beings, I run into good - I mean, good, almost saintly - people who humble me and make me realize that I should try better.
    , @Chrisnonymous

    I have more or less embarrassed myself so often on this site about what happened in the 50′s-60′s in my life
     
    Really, not often enough. Any salacious stories are welcome!
  26. @syonredux

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.
     
    Yeah, as I said, fellows who go to Westminster or Eton (Guy Burgess' school) aren't supposed to turn traitor.

    Philby et. al. didn’t see themselves as traitors.

    As Moldbug has noted, they saw themselves as the senior partners in the inevitable next stage of humanity (past nationalism), with the Soviets as juniors.

    It’s still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    As I mention in another post, if they saw themselves that way they were delusional (and probably their handlers encouraged that delusion) - when Philby got to Moscow he was not treated as senior partner but as senior citizen. If there had been a Communist takeover in GB, they would not have put Philby and his gang of poofters in charge either.
    , @Art Deco
    It’s still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    It's been 100% clear for a generation. It's a reasonable wager that it was within a year of their arriving in Moscow 95% clear to them that they were redundant.
  27. @Moshe
    Is there a snootier accent on the planet??

    I actually kinda like it.

    Philby’s accent wasn’t as plummy as that of the generation that preceded him.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

  28. hahhaaaa… thank you for noticing, Steve, once again, vis – a – vis your post – so good. And, thanks for burying my comments when I go off the deep end. I hate it when I go off,; I really do. Being so overly emotional is such a burden, and, as much as I think I am better able to process “things”, I still “feel” too much. Upshot: my sons are gonna be able to deal with ANY woman/wife for the rest of their lives!

  29. @syonredux

    This stuff doesn’t strike me as terribly scandalous: the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway. Similarly, the British Army had long found its generals among aristocrats, figuring they were less likely to lead a military coup because they already were top dogs.
     
    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable.....

    Apart from being considered a traitor to his country by the patriotic russians, they never trusted Philby or ruled out the possibilty of his still being a British agent.

    • Replies: @bomag

    never trusted Philby...
     
    I imagine Philby thought he would be treated as some kind of hero.

    I see an analogy today: our handlers are anxious to import foreigners with the plan that the foreigners will love love love our handlers and do their bidding forevermore. The evidence, however, is that the newcomers don't have much respect for people who give their country away.
  30. @Lagertha
    totally weird...coming from me, sheesh! I understand the thread...thank goodness my family is/was from 5 time zones away, from the backlands of Chechnya.

    As far as digging, Steve, this could be an amazing story... treasure trove. I mean, I have more or less embarrassed myself so often on this site about what happened in the 50's-60's in my life as an immigrant, or whenever...and later. And, sigh, you have all been very kind, even Twinkie. I wish I knew you guys in person.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can't share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time - because, it seems, "nothing matters anymore." I have met people in my 50's ( I live in the North East) who are very up front about their parents' CIA connections. I mean, this has happened often. Could it be that people are like "I don't know what is happening with terrorism and all, but my father/mother was working in.....?" - so not kidding. I'm still confronting this! I mean, the 60's-80's Cold War was intense.

    My parents were never CIA, but the CIA definitely knew who my dad was (his knowledge). He was an engineer, almost an artist...kinda' makes me feel sad now. My father was a perfect human being...so kind, so pure, so thoughtful of others...so positive - the hardest point for me. His children are not so positive and free of dread. My father felt he had to always support efforts against socialism/communism/fascism.

    you have all been very kind, even Twinkie

    I find you funny most of the time, Lagertha. I know this comes off wrong, but you remind me of the slightly air-headed Seven (well, actually five) Sisters school girls from my student days. Mostly amusing and charming, if sometimes incomprehensible.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can’t share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time – because, it seems, “nothing matters anymore.”

    You are more right than you know about this. I got to do some people killing earlier in my life. Got a bad injury out of it. There are days when I sit on top of a mountain and just never ever want to return to human society – it just all seems like a bunch of ants fighting over scraps of garbage bits. Then I remember that I live for my wife and children, friends and neighbors, and reluctantly make my way down.

    On the other hand, just when I am completely and utterly fed up with the inhumanity of most human beings, I run into good – I mean, good, almost saintly – people who humble me and make me realize that I should try better.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    yes, that moment...the ants fighting over garbage. I know you are not a jerk ;) But, if we actually, knew each other, with our spouses and children, we would be best friends. I have always told you: I am an immigrant...my parents were freaks....we (well, parents gone) are still questioning everything. I have always respected you to be smart and to have a career either in Navy/Army/Air Force. I know that your wife is non-Asian, are we good?
  31. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    You don’t know any real “upper class White girls,” judging from this nonsense. Most of them don’t even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous, Bill
    • Replies: @inertial
    They would if they knew some. Chechens are great. Not only they are the manliest men on Earth and often physically attractive, they tend to be extremely loyal to their friends and their women. As I mentioned before, this is not a combination often seen these days.
    , @Jack D
    The number of Chechens in the US is mercifully small so not that many UC white girls dig them specifically but it's not uncommon for UC white girls to dig some alpha brown guy who does NOT remind them of their father (bonus points if it pisses off said father) , though more commonly they choose Negroes like Obama's mom or Latinos, just because they are much more common. Usually said brown guy takes off one way or another and said white girl is left with brownish bab(ies).

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not at all brown skinned but he was "swarthy" like a southern Italian or a Greek - the kind of guy who has a 5 o'clock shadow at 10am.
    , @Moshe
    Funny to see your two recent comments. I have 3 people blocked and two of them are Testing99 and Urethra.

    You should consider taking Unz up on the blockong business. If you filter the people you're subjected to, you might not get frustrated with humanity as quickly.
    , @theo the kraut
    They don't need to know--they yearn for what's noble and savage, and they know it as soon as they see it. May be you live in a conservative small town in the US, good for you, it's different in big Western cities. While women are more 'racist' regarding mating choices there's a fascination with exotic bad boys, though most don't go with their urges, being wiser than that in their real lives. It's different when it goes to expressing these urges politically, though.

    I've met several educated posh white women with a penchant for brown guys from the exotic huddled masses. One was a psychology major who fell for one of our German Turk migrants, a violent small town criminal with some charm. He broke her nose once and crippled an adversary with a sucker punch in her presence, the guy being paraplegic ever since. Yet she has fondest memories, what with him being tough on the outside but vulnerable on the inside and else poor and misunderstood. I value your comments but sometimes you haven't got a clue. It's a mere preference, of course, most women know better, but I guess you know how funny even small preferences can turn out statistically, and they're not so small. I live in Berlin Kreuzberg, Berlin's prog/migrant diversitopia, where many posh folks dwell for a period of exquisite elegant slumming, and may be 1 in 100 women is sane.

    > You don’t know any real “upper class White girls,” ...
    > Most of them don’t even know what a Chechen is

    We've different standards then. At least over here, if you don't know what eg a Chechen is, you're being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class. Which is a bit unfair, because even our tabloids report on Chechen crime and terror by now...

  32. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    It pains me to say, “what is your problem?” Whiskey, this is not even cool anymore…forget fun and erudite. Vibrators are not gonna solve issues (anyone with serious sexual issues) , but, you are becoming banal. I agree so much with you about shallow women, I really do. I also, ….ahhh forgetaboudid.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    How's your son? Gotten another offer yet?
    , @Bill
    Becoming banal? He was banal ten years ago (back when he was "Evil Neocon"). Probably he was banal even before that (back when he was who-knows-what).
  33. new Russian encyclopedia may be the last anywhere to be produced on paper. I wonder what it will say about the Bolsheviks, Solzhenitsyn, neo-Cons, US Empire.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2017/0323/Russia-set-to-unveil-the-world-s-newest-print-encyclopedia-and-its-last

  34. @Twinkie

    you have all been very kind, even Twinkie
     
    I find you funny most of the time, Lagertha. I know this comes off wrong, but you remind me of the slightly air-headed Seven (well, actually five) Sisters school girls from my student days. Mostly amusing and charming, if sometimes incomprehensible.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can’t share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time – because, it seems, “nothing matters anymore.”
     
    You are more right than you know about this. I got to do some people killing earlier in my life. Got a bad injury out of it. There are days when I sit on top of a mountain and just never ever want to return to human society - it just all seems like a bunch of ants fighting over scraps of garbage bits. Then I remember that I live for my wife and children, friends and neighbors, and reluctantly make my way down.

    On the other hand, just when I am completely and utterly fed up with the inhumanity of most human beings, I run into good - I mean, good, almost saintly - people who humble me and make me realize that I should try better.

    yes, that moment…the ants fighting over garbage. I know you are not a jerk 😉 But, if we actually, knew each other, with our spouses and children, we would be best friends. I have always told you: I am an immigrant…my parents were freaks….we (well, parents gone) are still questioning everything. I have always respected you to be smart and to have a career either in Navy/Army/Air Force. I know that your wife is non-Asian, are we good?

  35. @Twinkie

    Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent
     
    CIA isn't the FBI. People in the clandestine service of the CIA are operatives or officers, not "agents." In intelligence parlance, agents are usually local assets handlers recruit.

    the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway.
     
    Yes, but entitled "Old Money elites" went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don't know who's next - Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    *The legendary OSS leader Wild Bill Donovan himself was an Irish Catholic.

    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.
     
    Wild Bill was larger than life - the ultimate mischief-maker. He fostered people with "out of the box" thinking. The man was straight out of the movies.
    , @Desiderius

    the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion
     
    That was likely about as effective as parents trusting priests to be alone with their children because of their anti-fornication religion. They were obviously unfamiliar with what's become of the Jesuits.
    , @Hibernian
    Donovan was an Ivy Leaguer (Columbia.) He mentored liberal Kennedy acolyte William Van den Heuvel, father of radical Katrina, owner of a controlling interest in The Nation.
    , @Anon
    Evidently they never heard of Graham Greene.

    (Not that he was a traitor, of course, but you know what I mean.)

  36. z man dude

    The Political Class Murders Itself

    http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=9899

  37. @Anonymous
    "That’s kind of weird."

    No it's not. You see it everyday in shopping malls and parks throughout the U.S., perfectly fine white girls (or, often their parents) lugging around some mulatto (or other mixed) child. This Chechen met the Russell girl in a bar (according to her friends) and she succumbed to his brutal charms, even married him and converted to Islam. That part is unusual, the marriage thing. I see a lot about all this I don't like--grandfather Russell must be rolling in his grave--but it's hardly rare or "weird".

    This is a cigar you're looking at Sailer.

    Perhaps that’s the key. Tamerlan was a marriage minded alpha – how unusual is that? The poor girl must have found this combination so rare and attractive that she was willing to put up with loserdom and even Islam in order to keep him.

  38. CJ says:
    @Lord Jeff Sessions
    Speaking of interesting family connections, I think I may have found the root of David Frum's realism on nature/nurture issues. This is fairly iSteve-ish:

     One of Barbara's most visible and personal acts of compassion was adopting Matthew, an aboriginal Canadian boy. Matthew’s adoption was part of a huge wave of what Canadians later called the ’60s Scoop: the aggressive removal of aboriginal children from their homes by the Canadian child welfare system, followed by the children’s adoption by well-meaning white Canadians. “My mother was thirty when Matthew came to our home,” Linda writes in her biography of her mother. “She could have given birth to another child had she wished. But her angry sense of the injustices dealt the Native Canadians and—to use her word, her ‘bleeding liberal heart’—convinced her that the way to expand our family was through adoption.”

    Matthew had a difficult childhood, and as a teenager he was often in trouble with the law. In Linda’s book, her younger brother comes off as an unfortunate intruder, the incorrigible who messed up her perfect family. Her discussion of Matthew insinuates a critique of misguided liberalism. “My mother at first believed that unreserved love and affection could undo whatever damage a baby had suffered in his early months,” she writes. “But she did not believe that for long.” Linda’s father, Murray, offered an even crueler assessment. “I don’t think [Barbara] was able to make Matthew a contributing member of society who could give as well as take,” he told Klein. “We certainly aren’t getting a lot of glory out of his accomplishments.”

    In her article, Klein said that Matthew was working in Vancouver as an actor and a carpenter, which is more than either of his siblings could tell me. David mentioned his brother curtly when he had dinner. “We had an adopted brother as well, and he was younger, and it was not successful, and he’s now fine and doing well” was all he would say. Later, when I asked if he could put me in touch with his siblings, he wrote back with his sister’s e-mail but said, “I’m not in close contact with my brother.” For her part, Linda said she did not know how to reach Matthew.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/prodigal-frum/
     
    I wasn't aware of this until I heard it today on the Kevin Michael Grace podcast.

    I knew of it, but not all the details given in that Nation story. Linda appears to be the wisest of the family; I enjoyed some of David’s early writing, but he’s dead to me now.

    The Jean Chretien reference from Kevin Grace is to Chretien’s adopted son Michel, best known for doing a prison term for sexual assault. An interesting article about him is here (warning: sad story).

    Related only-on-iSteve content: When he was Prime Minister of Canada (1993-2003), Jean Chretien regularly went to the Ottawa Hunt & Golf Club early in the morning, unaccompanied by security, and played a round of golf with whoever needed someone to complete a foursome. My cousin, knowing nothing of this, decided to try some golf while waiting for a plane (Ottawa Hunt is near the airport) and found himself shooting 18 holes with the Prime Minister.

  39. @oddsbodkins
    Almost as weird as the daughter of a family highly placed in the soviet MVD falling head-over-heels for a loser named Lee Harvey Oswald.

    I have no doubt that Oswald’s wife was head-over-heels in love with him. In fact, knowing how the Soviet Union worked, it’s probably less of a case of some KGB plot to keep tabs on Oswald and more of the girl herself using her connections to get close to him.

    That’s because, whereas in America Lee Harvey Oswald was a common loser, in Russia he became an exotic local celebrity whom girls would be fighting over. By the way, have you ever heard of John Reed?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Oswald's wife got out of the Soviet Union to prosperous Dallas, TX, didn't she?
    , @inertial
    *Dean Reed.
  40. @Anonymous
    "That’s kind of weird."

    No it's not. You see it everyday in shopping malls and parks throughout the U.S., perfectly fine white girls (or, often their parents) lugging around some mulatto (or other mixed) child. This Chechen met the Russell girl in a bar (according to her friends) and she succumbed to his brutal charms, even married him and converted to Islam. That part is unusual, the marriage thing. I see a lot about all this I don't like--grandfather Russell must be rolling in his grave--but it's hardly rare or "weird".

    This is a cigar you're looking at Sailer.

    Tsarnaev doesn’t strike me as black

    • Replies: @Jack D
    In Russia, where native Russians tend to be blondish, people from the Caucasus are called "black". His hair (and he was a hairy guy) was certainly black. People from the Caucasus are by definition Caucasian but racially they are clearly different than northern Europeans. No one would mistake Tamerlan for an Englishman. In Patriot's Day he is played by an actor from Georgia (the country, not the state).
  41. So not only did Steve bring to America’s attention the Deep State, he has provided a number of examples that establish how strange can be its actions and connections.

  42. @inertial
    I have no doubt that Oswald's wife was head-over-heels in love with him. In fact, knowing how the Soviet Union worked, it's probably less of a case of some KGB plot to keep tabs on Oswald and more of the girl herself using her connections to get close to him.

    That's because, whereas in America Lee Harvey Oswald was a common loser, in Russia he became an exotic local celebrity whom girls would be fighting over. By the way, have you ever heard of John Reed?

    Oswald’s wife got out of the Soviet Union to prosperous Dallas, TX, didn’t she?

    • Replies: @inertial
    Dallas night have been prosperous but Oswald went back to being a loser who couldn't keep a job. If Marina were really a daughter of nomenklatura her standard of living had likely declined.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    The change of weather must've been nice.
  43. I assume that this is all the same Russell family:

    ..Rev. Nodiah Russell: One of 10 or 12 men who founded Yale University in 1701.
    …William Russell: Yale Trustee 1745-61
    …Rev. Nodiah Russell: Graduated Yale 1750
    …Matthew Talcott Russell: Graduated Yale 1769. Lawyer for the Middletown Russell family.

    … William Huntington Russell (1809-85): Graduated Yale 1833. Founder of Skull and Bones Society (or Russell Trust Association), which came to dominate Yale. Founded prep school for boys, 1836. His secret organization spread in the 1870s to Phillips Academy, the Andover, Massachusetts prep school.

    …Samuel Russell: Born in 1789 … He became head of the Middletown Russells. He established Russell and Co. in 1823, which by the 1830s superseded Perkins syndicate as largest American opium smuggling organization. His partners included leading Boston families.

    Warren Delano, Jr.: chief of Russell and Co. in Canton; grandfather of U.S. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/chapter-7-skull-and-bones-the-racist-nightmare-at-yale/

  44. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    Ignore the carpers and pygmy intellects/
    __________________

    FUMBLE IN JUNGLE RUMBLE Married Calais Jungle charity boss probed after we exposed her affair with a toyboy migrant and secret love nest

    Clare, 46, set up affair in The Jungle with Tunisian conman Mohamed Bajjar, 27, who posed as a Syrian to get into Britain
    Exclusive
    By DEAN WILKINS
    6th February 2017, 9:26 pm
    Updated: 12th February 2017, 7:01 pm

    A CHEATING charity boss is being probed after we exposed her affair with a Calais Jungle migrant.

    The Charity Commission is monitoring Care4Calais founder Clare Moseley after our …….
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2801078/married-calais-jungle-charity-boss-probed-after-we-exposed-her-affair-with-a-toyboy-migrant-and-secret-love-nest/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4141602/Lies-migrant-affair-Care4Calais-boss.html?amp&amp

    • Replies: @Thea
    I heard an interview on NPR in the last year or so and she had that desperate, cloying near crying tone of shrill SJWs who think everything they do is holy.

    "These people are escaping crushing poverty ...."

    She was very off putting. Now I know why.
    , @Bill B.
    Thanks. There have been others doing this at the camp. One boyo even smuggled himself into England to be with his much older "charity lover" and was, amazingly, allowed to apply for asylum.

    I am not very good at the Paul Ekman way of reading faces but the pictures of the couples are show pieces of insincerity, smugness and, in some cases, disgust.
  45. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Culture of Lies isn’t just a lie. It is lies allowed to pass as truth. And that is cancerous.
    Cancer doesn’t just stop on its own. It has its own logic and grows and grows once it takes over an area of the body.

    Same with culture of lies. Once society accepted the crazy lie that a homo’s anus is as much a ‘sex organ’ as a vagina, it was cancerous. It was such a blatant lie. If a lie on that scale is not only tolerated but ENCOURAGED, lies turn into culture of lies. A cancer.

    Once Lies became institutionalized, their logic was bound to metastasize and spread all over.

    Result is the video above.

  46. @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    Wild Bill was larger than life – the ultimate mischief-maker. He fostered people with “out of the box” thinking. The man was straight out of the movies.

  47. @Steve Sailer
    Oswald's wife got out of the Soviet Union to prosperous Dallas, TX, didn't she?

    Dallas night have been prosperous but Oswald went back to being a loser who couldn’t keep a job. If Marina were really a daughter of nomenklatura her standard of living had likely declined.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    If Oswald was such a "loser," how did he have connections to so many powerful individuals within our Deep State?

    Oswald was a CIA agent. Perhaps the Russians knew this, so they persuaded Marina to marry him and extract secrets.
  48. @Lagertha
    It pains me to say, "what is your problem?" Whiskey, this is not even cool anymore...forget fun and erudite. Vibrators are not gonna solve issues (anyone with serious sexual issues) , but, you are becoming banal. I agree so much with you about shallow women, I really do. I also, ....ahhh forgetaboudid.

    How’s your son? Gotten another offer yet?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    very good ones (one very iStevie)...fortunately, they were earlier. He is never neurotic like me, so he's good. Mountains or Beach....hard decision; all 3 cost the same.
  49. @Marie
    Isn't Skull & Bones the one that makes you masturbate in a coffin to gain acceptance?

    Yeah. Since sexual revolution and Internet porn, it’s lost a lot of cache.

  50. @Twinkie

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.
     
    You don't know any real "upper class White girls," judging from this nonsense. Most of them don't even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.

    They would if they knew some. Chechens are great. Not only they are the manliest men on Earth and often physically attractive, they tend to be extremely loyal to their friends and their women. As I mentioned before, this is not a combination often seen these days.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Chechens vary. The bomber's dad was a loser and not very Checheny. Brother Joker was a pothead. Uncle Ruslan (the guy with the real CIA connections) is not very Checheny at all:

    http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1323132.1366507081!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/usa-explosions-boston.jpg

    Of the whole family, the only one who was stereotypically high-T manly man Checheny was Tamerlan.
  51. @Lagertha
    totally weird...coming from me, sheesh! I understand the thread...thank goodness my family is/was from 5 time zones away, from the backlands of Chechnya.

    As far as digging, Steve, this could be an amazing story... treasure trove. I mean, I have more or less embarrassed myself so often on this site about what happened in the 50's-60's in my life as an immigrant, or whenever...and later. And, sigh, you have all been very kind, even Twinkie. I wish I knew you guys in person.

    There is a theory that people who have a lot of info, but feel they can't share it, become more reclusive/neurotic over time - because, it seems, "nothing matters anymore." I have met people in my 50's ( I live in the North East) who are very up front about their parents' CIA connections. I mean, this has happened often. Could it be that people are like "I don't know what is happening with terrorism and all, but my father/mother was working in.....?" - so not kidding. I'm still confronting this! I mean, the 60's-80's Cold War was intense.

    My parents were never CIA, but the CIA definitely knew who my dad was (his knowledge). He was an engineer, almost an artist...kinda' makes me feel sad now. My father was a perfect human being...so kind, so pure, so thoughtful of others...so positive - the hardest point for me. His children are not so positive and free of dread. My father felt he had to always support efforts against socialism/communism/fascism.

    I have more or less embarrassed myself so often on this site about what happened in the 50′s-60′s in my life

    Really, not often enough. Any salacious stories are welcome!

  52. Grandfather-in-law. Not what one would call a close relationship. Indeed it is a non-relationship in any marriage. There is not one drop of shared blood and no one genetic locus in common. Thus, this is a totally pointless set of musings meant to slag Skull and Bones at best. (No I am not an Eli). Why waste the bytes when the topic is irrelevant?

  53. @Twinkie

    Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent
     
    CIA isn't the FBI. People in the clandestine service of the CIA are operatives or officers, not "agents." In intelligence parlance, agents are usually local assets handlers recruit.

    the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway.
     
    Yes, but entitled "Old Money elites" went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don't know who's next - Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    *The legendary OSS leader Wild Bill Donovan himself was an Irish Catholic.

    Yes, but entitled “Old Money elites” went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don’t know who’s next – Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    In this case, I’d bet on another ethnic group.

  54. @anon
    Apart from being considered a traitor to his country by the patriotic russians, they never trusted Philby or ruled out the possibilty of his still being a British agent.

    never trusted Philby…

    I imagine Philby thought he would be treated as some kind of hero.

    I see an analogy today: our handlers are anxious to import foreigners with the plan that the foreigners will love love love our handlers and do their bidding forevermore. The evidence, however, is that the newcomers don’t have much respect for people who give their country away.

  55. Its not the people they hired back then that worries me, it is the people they hire now.

    Like our own Neocons, Russians are willing and able to give historic trends a helping hand. This past weekend Russian television news carried images of demonstrations in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova that you did not see on Euronews. The object of popular wrath was George Soros and his freedom-promoting “Open Society” affiliates in all these countries. Russian news commentary explained that these demonstrations under the banner of “Go Home Soros” became possible now that the Trump administration has dropped U.S. support for him. It would be naïve not to see official Russian assistance to these coordinated demonstrations across a large swathe of Eastern Europe. But the Russians were merely administering an antidote to U.S. sponsored subversion of the legitimate Euroskeptic governments in these countries through Soros and similar NGO proxies.

    In recent years the US has advanced the cause leftism far more than the Soviet Union ever did.

    PS. If an officially released US government document from J Edgar Hoover states George Bush was a CIA officer then I think you can too Steve.

  56. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    If baseball doesn’t do it, golf surely would.

  57. @Onginer
    I'm not refuting or disagreeing with any of this, but I'm trying to logically form a link with what any of it has to do with The Boston Marathon bombing? Why does him having an old money wife... for whatever reason, have anything to do with him blowing people up? What did it accomplish for the CIA? Is there any link between him and his little loser brother going Jihadi in Boston and the CIA? Or is this just trying to figure out why he is in The U.S.?

    I interpreted this as meaning the CIA has not had the interests of ordinary Americans at heart for generations and this sort of stupid crap is the consequence. Our elites don’t care that pretty Anglo girls mate with skanky Muslims in their reckless quest to stay in power.

  58. @Clyde
    Ignore the carpers and pygmy intellects/
    __________________

    FUMBLE IN JUNGLE RUMBLE Married Calais Jungle charity boss probed after we exposed her affair with a toyboy migrant and secret love nest

    Clare, 46, set up affair in The Jungle with Tunisian conman Mohamed Bajjar, 27, who posed as a Syrian to get into Britain
    Exclusive
    By DEAN WILKINS
    6th February 2017, 9:26 pm
    Updated: 12th February 2017, 7:01 pm

    A CHEATING charity boss is being probed after we exposed her affair with a Calais Jungle migrant.

    The Charity Commission is monitoring Care4Calais founder Clare Moseley after our .......
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2801078/married-calais-jungle-charity-boss-probed-after-we-exposed-her-affair-with-a-toyboy-migrant-and-secret-love-nest/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4141602/Lies-migrant-affair-Care4Calais-boss.html?amp&amp

    I heard an interview on NPR in the last year or so and she had that desperate, cloying near crying tone of shrill SJWs who think everything they do is holy.

    “These people are escaping crushing poverty ….”

    She was very off putting. Now I know why.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    You were paying attention... and noticing!
  59. @PiltdownMan
    In that case, and if it is true that Tamerlan Tsarnaev got his green-card courtesy of his work as a CIA asset, what is truly weird that he chucked up advantages of connections into the elites of this country that other immigrants can only dream of—to become a doomed Islamist terrorist bomber.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control–
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    –Rudyard Kipling, “The Stranger”

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Very nice. Apposite.
  60. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    By the third generation a lot of families become victims of their own success and become decadent. They’ve lived in expensive bubbles their entire lives and are bored. The girl was probably thrilled to meet a strapping tough guy like Tamerlan who is quite unlike the wimpy rich guys she was used to dealing with. Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush’s grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    • Replies: @Barnard
    The problem with comparisons to the Bush family is that George H. W. Bush was the third generation. It was his grandfather Samuel P. Bush who first made the family wealthy and politically connected. His grandchildren are mostly unimpressive, but that might be as much about their generation of elites as anything else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush
    , @Art Deco
    Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush’s grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    No, your imagination tells you they're 'mostly dopey'. For the most part, they're not public figures and the granular details of their lives are bruited about very little. One of Jeb's children is known to be something of a sad wreck. That's one out of about 12.
  61. @Random Dude on the Internet
    An alternate theory could be that elite families have degenerate/screw up family members who end up with the wrong kind of people. It's a lot like how a young woman from the Rothschild family hooked up with Jay Electronica, a rapper.

    Elite families are started by the wrong kind of people.

  62. @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion

    That was likely about as effective as parents trusting priests to be alone with their children because of their anti-fornication religion. They were obviously unfamiliar with what’s become of the Jesuits.

  63. @anonymous
    Could just be a case of a young woman trying to reject her fathers tribe as much as possible or trying to find a much smaller pond in which to be a bigger fish.

    Not than many thousands of years ago young women would have expected to leave the local group, but how to do that today might be really unclear.

    But yeah, it's weird and suggests an interesting backstory that we may never know.

    “Could just be a case of a young woman trying to reject her father’s tribe as much as possible “

    Yeah, this happens a certain amount in any family, not just WASP families. In this case, because the family was noteworthy (CIA/WASP) and the method of rejection was noteworthy (uncritical embrace of Muslim mass murderer) it made the story noteworthy. (“Noteworthy” = available on iSteve. Lamestream media ignored it, as per their usual directive.)

  64. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    “Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.”

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It’s, shall we say, way out there.

    “If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.”

    I’m sure that you, as a father of several white daughters, are laying down the law regarding how they act in public. At least throw us louts a bone here and there regarding your tricks of the trade. I’m sure as the proud pappy you are willing to celebrate your success.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It’s, shall we say, way out there.
     
    You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media. Say what one will about Whiskey, but he does occasionally have something interesting to say. That can never be said about you.
    , @Bill

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork.
     
    That's because you and he would score similarly on a certain kind of test.
    , @Moshe
    I have the local autist blocked but did he claim to be the father of several daughters??

    I assume either you were joking or he was lying.

    I really do hope I'm wrong though because thay would be absolutely hilarious.

    Again though, you gotta be joking. Nobody hates girls as much as this dude
  65. The girls’ family should have disowned her when she married that chechen douche-bag. Shunning is out of fashion nowadays. Pity. It is a necessary tool in keeping societies in good working order.

    • Replies: @Njguy73
    If she voted for Trump, she'd be disowned like an Amish blogger.
  66. @Corvinus
    "Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls."

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It's, shall we say, way out there.

    "If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave."

    I'm sure that you, as a father of several white daughters, are laying down the law regarding how they act in public. At least throw us louts a bone here and there regarding your tricks of the trade. I'm sure as the proud pappy you are willing to celebrate your success.

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It’s, shall we say, way out there.

    You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media. Say what one will about Whiskey, but he does occasionally have something interesting to say. That can never be said about you.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media."

    Project much?

    Now, I'm sure with your brood of daughters, and your own fatherly touch, you could share your words of wisdom on how you control, I mean gently influence, their conduct. We are all ears...
  67. Truth is stranger than fiction.

  68. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    The way I remember it, Tsarnaev used his wife/girlfriend as his personal piggybank/penis receptacle. I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter's course of action. The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate.

    “I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter’s course of action.”

    There’s nothing strange about it. She made her own choices, her family may or may not have been approving. It has little to do with her father’s status. It has everything to do with their outlook on how they interact with people who are NOT from their social standing.

    “The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate.”

    Really, now. A traditional family of longstanding worth degenerates itself when the head of the household enables their offspring to biologically “slum it”. Is that what you are saying? If yes, ask yourself this question –> how would Jesus look at this situation?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Can you stop with the "what would Jesus do" stuff? It's tiresome. Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus? Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don't? What is the point?

    It's abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did. Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model.
  69. @inertial
    I have no doubt that Oswald's wife was head-over-heels in love with him. In fact, knowing how the Soviet Union worked, it's probably less of a case of some KGB plot to keep tabs on Oswald and more of the girl herself using her connections to get close to him.

    That's because, whereas in America Lee Harvey Oswald was a common loser, in Russia he became an exotic local celebrity whom girls would be fighting over. By the way, have you ever heard of John Reed?

    *Dean Reed.

  70. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    The way I remember it, Tsarnaev used his wife/girlfriend as his personal piggybank/penis receptacle. I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter's course of action. The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate.

    I remember reading some British tabloid that the Tsarnaev father-in-law hated him and was glad the marriage was all over.

  71. @Onginer
    I'm not refuting or disagreeing with any of this, but I'm trying to logically form a link with what any of it has to do with The Boston Marathon bombing? Why does him having an old money wife... for whatever reason, have anything to do with him blowing people up? What did it accomplish for the CIA? Is there any link between him and his little loser brother going Jihadi in Boston and the CIA? Or is this just trying to figure out why he is in The U.S.?

    ” What did it accomplish for the CIA? ”

    Are you serious?

    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
  72. @anonymous
    Could just be a case of a young woman trying to reject her fathers tribe as much as possible or trying to find a much smaller pond in which to be a bigger fish.

    Not than many thousands of years ago young women would have expected to leave the local group, but how to do that today might be really unclear.

    But yeah, it's weird and suggests an interesting backstory that we may never know.

    Women tend to take up with the conquerors.

  73. @Twinkie

    Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent
     
    CIA isn't the FBI. People in the clandestine service of the CIA are operatives or officers, not "agents." In intelligence parlance, agents are usually local assets handlers recruit.

    the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway.
     
    Yes, but entitled "Old Money elites" went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don't know who's next - Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    *The legendary OSS leader Wild Bill Donovan himself was an Irish Catholic.

    Remember that CIA station chief in Algeria who drugged and raped women?

  74. @Almost Missouri
    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control--
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    --Rudyard Kipling, "The Stranger"

    Very nice. Apposite.

  75. As they say at Disneyland, “It’s a small world after all!”

  76. No comment on this?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/03/22/police-man-accused-murder-traveled-nyc-target-blacks-sword/99505550/

    I know it doesn’t fit the narrative but still its pretty big news

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Brothers stab each other (and white folks - how many white people have been stabbed in the course of muggings in the last few decades?) every day and it's not big news but one crazy white guy stabs one black vagrant and it's supposed to be big news? Sorry.
    , @fish
    Yeah.....but in order to qualify as the "Great White Defendant" it really needed to be gun crime!


    So many wasted opportunities for the gun controllers!




    So....hows the micropeen? Search going well?
  77. @Twinkie

    Bush was often said to be the first Director of the CIA who hadn’t been an agent
     
    CIA isn't the FBI. People in the clandestine service of the CIA are operatives or officers, not "agents." In intelligence parlance, agents are usually local assets handlers recruit.

    the CIA had a general inclination to hire from among Old Money elites as being the least inclined to sell out their country since their clans pretty much owned it anyway.
     
    Yes, but entitled "Old Money elites" went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad, Mormons. I don't know who's next - Korean evangelicals, maybe?

    *The legendary OSS leader Wild Bill Donovan himself was an Irish Catholic.

    Yes, but entitled “Old Money elites” went degenerate rather quickly, so clean-cut Catholics were recruited (CIA = Catholics in Action)*. Then when established Catholics started to go bad,

    For degenerate elites, see Aldrich Ames.

    For Catholics going bad, Robert Hanssen comes to mind. He was FBI not CIA but super Catholic (although a convert from Lutheranism), Opus Dei and all that.

    When Americans go bad, it tends to be just for $ – neither of these guys had any love for Communism (although they might have harbored some hatred for America). The British spies tended to be true believers, but they converted in the ’30s when it was still possible to overlook Stalin’s crimes if you wore rose tinted glasses (so you wouldn’t see all the blood on Stalin’s hands).

    The sad thing about Philby (not that he didn’t deserve that kind of hell or much much worse) is that when he ended up in Moscow he hated it, not just because it was dreary Soviet Moscow but because the KGB didn’t really trust him. KGB types are paranoid to begin with, but how could you trust a man who was a traitor to his own country? He assumed that he would be made a KGB colonel with the rank and responsibilities that title implies, but the most they would let him do was give lectures about the old days to KGB cadets – they didn’t trust him with anything current.

  78. @Desiderius
    Philby et. al. didn't see themselves as traitors.

    As Moldbug has noted, they saw themselves as the senior partners in the inevitable next stage of humanity (past nationalism), with the Soviets as juniors.

    It's still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    As I mention in another post, if they saw themselves that way they were delusional (and probably their handlers encouraged that delusion) – when Philby got to Moscow he was not treated as senior partner but as senior citizen. If there had been a Communist takeover in GB, they would not have put Philby and his gang of poofters in charge either.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    And yet today Philby's gang of poofters is in charge of us all.

    He was just a little ahead of his time. The ur-globohomo.
  79. @PiltdownMan
    I actually kinda like it.

    Philby's accent wasn't as plummy as that of the generation that preceded him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1S9F3agsUA

    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way – they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Quite correct about the British upper class. On the other hand it is to a degree a matter of choice. I know Old Etonians now in their 50s who affect a semi-Cockney voice which must have driven their parents crazy - just as the children of these pathetic flower children are now horrifying their parents by returning to "mega posh" accents. In my experience it is the country gents and their wives, people for whom a trip to London is a vexing break in their routine, who sound the most authentically old-fashioned, and I mean people in their thirties.
    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation. Thier wives were often even grander in style: I once read a newspaper account of an interview with Joseph Clark Grew (also Groton and Harvard). The interviewer commented that his accent, although unusual, was recognizably American, but that of his wife was offensively "foreign". She was a as American as her husband, and a grandchild of Oliver Hazard Perry.
    Anyway, Bertrand Russell will give you the accent of the top class of his generation: Keynes was upper middle.
    , @Lot
    I know one person in his 30's who has an old WASP accent. Third generation banker and UES resident.

    Another is Christopher Buckley.

    I agree it is dying out fast.

    Trump's sister has a posh but not waspy accent. No trace of Queens in her voice, she has the older upper class lady version of General American.
    , @Art Deco
    I think you might find of the cohorts now approaching 90, some of the women have boarding school accents but the men do not. The Buckleys seemed affected because among their contemporaries it was unusual even in that stratum.

    Here's Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr., who was 3/4 of a generation older than Buckley, Massachusetts born and bred. You hear only a hint of it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTMPVOmEF_k
    , @syonredux

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.
     
    Dunno. The Estuary Accent is spreading

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

    And even the Royal Family is not entirely immune:

    And yet, when you hear William and Kate actually speak, her accent is (to my ears) more “aristocratic sounding” than his. Look at this clip of the young couple discussing their upcoming nuptials.

    Both fiancee’s speak within the “Near-RP” family of accents (speech that is close to Received Pronunciation/Standard British, but with a few regionalisms or contemporary features thrown in). However, William’s accent has a quite bit of Estuary English (modern London-inflected English) mixed in: his diphthong is words like KITE starts at a backer place (compare his “side” [sɒɪd] vs. her “I” [aɪ]); and his diphthong in words like GOAT is closer to Estuary as well (compare his “no” [nɜʉ] to her more genteel “know” [nəʊ]).

    So, in my opinion, the Prince speaks a bit closer to the average Tom, Dick and Harry than his “common born” wife, who ironically speaks with a more, shall we say, royal-sounding accent.


    What are we to make of this? I think this says several things about the radically changing attitudes toward dialect in the UK:

    1.) If (probably when) William becomes monarch, he will perhaps be the first in British history to speak with an accent relatively close to how “average English people” speak.

    2.) The ties between class and accent further continue to weaken in the UK. The spread of Estuary English is beginning to look at lot like the spread of General American in the mid-20th-Century US.

    3.) Is it time to start ringing the death knells of Received Pronunciation? If in a few decades we’ll see a king who doesn’t speak the Queen’s English, then how much longer can this accent survive?

     

    http://dialectblog.com/2011/05/01/william-and-kates-accent/
    , @Uncle Remus
    Buckley claimed that his first language was Spanish. He spent part of his early years in school in England. This has been said to account for his (contrived) version of a Mid-Atlantic accent. It
    was always a charade. Members of his family spoke more like normal East Coast WASPS, though one parent was the son of an Irish Catholic Texas sheriff and the other was a New Orleans Jewess.
  80. @Twinkie

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.
     
    You don't know any real "upper class White girls," judging from this nonsense. Most of them don't even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.

    The number of Chechens in the US is mercifully small so not that many UC white girls dig them specifically but it’s not uncommon for UC white girls to dig some alpha brown guy who does NOT remind them of their father (bonus points if it pisses off said father) , though more commonly they choose Negroes like Obama’s mom or Latinos, just because they are much more common. Usually said brown guy takes off one way or another and said white girl is left with brownish bab(ies).

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not at all brown skinned but he was “swarthy” like a southern Italian or a Greek – the kind of guy who has a 5 o’clock shadow at 10am.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    This post is bizarre.

    Upper class white girls tend to dig guys that dress preppy and look like Abercrombie and Fitch models. There are girls that go for black hip hop types, but they're just a small percentage.

    Never heard of white girls who preferred "brown" guys.
  81. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Glossy
    It's not all that weird. The CIA supports anti-Russian Chechens for the same reason that it supported Osama Bin Laden and the Afghan mujahedeen against the USSR. You work together, you socialize together. And chicks dig Chechens.

    And chicks dig Chechens.

    One of the episodes of Married With Children actually featured some “Chechen” guy (allegedly an exchange student in US) who wins over Bud Bundy’s bid to date at that time gorgeous looking young Kerry Russel. I believe the “Chechen” character had a surprisingly very Russian name.

    • Replies: @Njguy73
    "Besting Bud Bundy in a girl-getting contest" is kinda like "Besting George Costanza in a hair-growing contest."
  82. WASP Elites supporting in various ways, including marriage, various non-whites and non-Christians is par for the course, especially when those non0whites and /or non-Christians are radicals with a special animus against the people the WASP Elites see as ‘white trash.’

    Nothing new in that. That was necessary to Jews taking over the Anglosphere.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Jews "took over the Anglosphere" in the imaginations of Unz combox denizens and nowhere else. The American Jewish population is declining demographically due to inter-marriage and low fertility rates to boot. The one component which is healthy would be the Orthodox, who are seldom in influential (or particularly lucrative) positions.
    , @Autochthon
    Agreed. Ango-Saxons (i.e., English) have been using other ethnies to exploit and oppress Celts (i.e., "white trash") since before the two groups even came to America.

    Current circumstances are so dire, though, that this sort of thing must be set aside except to the extent it must be addressed to unite us; internecine squabbling among Europeans must stop—its apex during the first half of the twentieth century, and the aftermath therefrom, are what caused the existential threat we now face.

  83. @Corvinus
    "I always thought it strange that her father was a physician and that her family appeared to accept/support their daughter’s course of action."

    There's nothing strange about it. She made her own choices, her family may or may not have been approving. It has little to do with her father's status. It has everything to do with their outlook on how they interact with people who are NOT from their social standing.

    "The fact that her grandfather was of old substantial WASP stock only proves that families have many different ways to degenerate."

    Really, now. A traditional family of longstanding worth degenerates itself when the head of the household enables their offspring to biologically "slum it". Is that what you are saying? If yes, ask yourself this question --> how would Jesus look at this situation?

    Can you stop with the “what would Jesus do” stuff? It’s tiresome. Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus? Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don’t? What is the point?

    It’s abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did. Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Can you stop with the “what would Jesus do” stuff? It’s tiresome."

    No, it is relevant here. Would it be fair to say that you are not a Christian?

    "Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus?"

    I do my best to adhere to His principles. How about yourself?

    "Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don’t?"

    Those Southern white Christians who preached the Good Book, yet found it in their soul to denigrate their fellow black Christians through Jim Crow laws and customs are assuredly hypocrites.

    "It’s abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did."

    You are ignorant to believe that millions of Americans today do NOT work toward living their life according to the will of God.

    "Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model."

    He died for our sins, including your transgressions. Apparently, you are not Christian, as it appears you lack even basic understanding of what Jesus stood for.
    , @Hibernian
    I like your first paragraph. The second not so much. I would agree that someone who somehow believes that he will be just like Jesus is at best a fool, and at worst (Oliver Cromwell, John Brown) a lunatic. The better question is not "What would Jesus do?" but "What would Jesus have me do?"
  84. @anonymous
    By the third generation a lot of families become victims of their own success and become decadent. They've lived in expensive bubbles their entire lives and are bored. The girl was probably thrilled to meet a strapping tough guy like Tamerlan who is quite unlike the wimpy rich guys she was used to dealing with. Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush's grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    The problem with comparisons to the Bush family is that George H. W. Bush was the third generation. It was his grandfather Samuel P. Bush who first made the family wealthy and politically connected. His grandchildren are mostly unimpressive, but that might be as much about their generation of elites as anything else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush

  85. @AndrewR
    Tsarnaev doesn't strike me as black

    In Russia, where native Russians tend to be blondish, people from the Caucasus are called “black”. His hair (and he was a hairy guy) was certainly black. People from the Caucasus are by definition Caucasian but racially they are clearly different than northern Europeans. No one would mistake Tamerlan for an Englishman. In Patriot’s Day he is played by an actor from Georgia (the country, not the state).

  86. @Tiny Duck
    No comment on this?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/03/22/police-man-accused-murder-traveled-nyc-target-blacks-sword/99505550/


    I know it doesn't fit the narrative but still its pretty big news

    Brothers stab each other (and white folks – how many white people have been stabbed in the course of muggings in the last few decades?) every day and it’s not big news but one crazy white guy stabs one black vagrant and it’s supposed to be big news? Sorry.

  87. @Tiny Duck
    No comment on this?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/03/22/police-man-accused-murder-traveled-nyc-target-blacks-sword/99505550/


    I know it doesn't fit the narrative but still its pretty big news

    Yeah…..but in order to qualify as the “Great White Defendant” it really needed to be gun crime!

    So many wasted opportunities for the gun controllers!

    So….hows the micropeen? Search going well?

  88. @inertial
    They would if they knew some. Chechens are great. Not only they are the manliest men on Earth and often physically attractive, they tend to be extremely loyal to their friends and their women. As I mentioned before, this is not a combination often seen these days.

    Chechens vary. The bomber’s dad was a loser and not very Checheny. Brother Joker was a pothead. Uncle Ruslan (the guy with the real CIA connections) is not very Checheny at all:

    Of the whole family, the only one who was stereotypically high-T manly man Checheny was Tamerlan.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    Of the whole family, the only one who was stereotypically high-T manly man Checheny was Tamerlan.
     
    Killed three Jewish guys peripherally involved in drug/marijuana trafficking...so you noticed/// Killed them w an accomplice//// Waltham Mass what a place to die
  89. @syonredux

    Hence the shock over Kim Philby.Fellows who go to Westminster are supposed to be reliable…..

    I think the shock over Philby was more that he was actually in the tank with the communist Soviet Union 100%. and not just simply somewhat associated with them, secretly.
     
    Yeah, as I said, fellows who go to Westminster or Eton (Guy Burgess' school) aren't supposed to turn traitor.

    It wasn’t Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    Cambridge was historically associated with Puritanism – this is the reason why the New England Puritans named the seat of their great university after it, rather than after Oxford. While Oxford supported Charles I during the English Civil War, Cambridge supported Cromwell. On the political spectrum of Christianity, Calvinism and Puritanism must be understood to stand on the left, indeed, some strains of them on the far left. Eric Voegelin, in The New Science of Politics, identifies Puritanism as an early example of what he called “gnostic” (vol. V, chapter 5, pp. 196-219, “Gnostic Revolution: the Puritan Case”).

    Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, that great satire on the Puritans, observed that they

    “Call Fire, and Sword, and Desolation,
    A godly thorough Reformation,
    Which always must be carry’d on,
    And still be doing, never done:
    As if Religion were intended
    For nothing else but to be mended.”

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    Modern leftism is a sort of Puritanism from which the Christianity has been excised, leaving behind only its fanaticism and moral vanity. It is not surprising that it should acquire so many followers in places like the Cambridges of Old and New England, which had been suffused with Voegelinian Gnosticism for centuries. As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, “Cambridge is second in all things, except treason.”

    • Replies: @syonredux

    It wasn’t Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.
     
    A public school education is supposed to make one immune to traitorous impulses....

    As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, “Cambridge is second in all things, except treason.”
     
    I once heard a Cambridge-trained historian remark that Oxford men are simply too stupid to betray their country in the name of ideology.
    , @Desiderius

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?
     
    In practice, done well it's more akin to Deming's continuous improvement. It's the lifeblood of all Christian spiritual discipline, not just puritan.
    , @Millennial
    "That great satire..."

    Yeah, and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert were accurate chroniclers of the Bush II administration. SNL is the most accurate account of the Trump administration so far.

    If you'd bothered to read the entire Hudibras excerpt, you'd see that Butler used the word Presbyterian to refer to the Puritans. This is accurate terminology. Moldbug, of course, omits the word when he recycles the quote. I wonder why.

    The term Presbyterian is usually associated with Scotland, and indeed Scotland was the most "puritanical" part of Britain in the 17th century. Look up the witch burning stats.

    Scotland was a Calvinist Presbyterian theocracy when Cromwell was a baby, and the Scots were the first to fight against Charles I in the Bishops War. The Ulster Scots were, naturally, Presbyterians.

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don't claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.

  90. @Jack D
    Can you stop with the "what would Jesus do" stuff? It's tiresome. Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus? Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don't? What is the point?

    It's abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did. Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model.

    “Can you stop with the “what would Jesus do” stuff? It’s tiresome.”

    No, it is relevant here. Would it be fair to say that you are not a Christian?

    “Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus?”

    I do my best to adhere to His principles. How about yourself?

    “Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don’t?”

    Those Southern white Christians who preached the Good Book, yet found it in their soul to denigrate their fellow black Christians through Jim Crow laws and customs are assuredly hypocrites.

    “It’s abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did.”

    You are ignorant to believe that millions of Americans today do NOT work toward living their life according to the will of God.

    “Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model.”

    He died for our sins, including your transgressions. Apparently, you are not Christian, as it appears you lack even basic understanding of what Jesus stood for.

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!
  91. @Thea
    I heard an interview on NPR in the last year or so and she had that desperate, cloying near crying tone of shrill SJWs who think everything they do is holy.

    "These people are escaping crushing poverty ...."

    She was very off putting. Now I know why.

    You were paying attention… and noticing!

  92. @Jack D
    Chechens vary. The bomber's dad was a loser and not very Checheny. Brother Joker was a pothead. Uncle Ruslan (the guy with the real CIA connections) is not very Checheny at all:

    http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1323132.1366507081!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/usa-explosions-boston.jpg

    Of the whole family, the only one who was stereotypically high-T manly man Checheny was Tamerlan.

    Of the whole family, the only one who was stereotypically high-T manly man Checheny was Tamerlan.

    Killed three Jewish guys peripherally involved in drug/marijuana trafficking…so you noticed/// Killed them w an accomplice//// Waltham Mass what a place to die

  93. @oddsbodkins
    Almost as weird as the daughter of a family highly placed in the soviet MVD falling head-over-heels for a loser named Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Whether her family is ‘highly placed’ or whether that’s just another factoid passed from one addled-mind to another in subcultural literature, she’s been married for 50+ years to a man in the building trades, living in suburbs and exurbs of Dallas. What’s in that for the MVD, KGB, CIA, or whomever else?

    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    I don't think the fact that her uncle was an MVD colonel is disputed by anyone.

    Stratfor summarizes the Marina weirdness much better than I can:
    https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mystery-marina-oswald

    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off. I imagine they wanted nothing more to do with Marina, and that the feeling was mutual from her.
  94. @Crawfurdmuir
    It wasn't Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    Cambridge was historically associated with Puritanism - this is the reason why the New England Puritans named the seat of their great university after it, rather than after Oxford. While Oxford supported Charles I during the English Civil War, Cambridge supported Cromwell. On the political spectrum of Christianity, Calvinism and Puritanism must be understood to stand on the left, indeed, some strains of them on the far left. Eric Voegelin, in The New Science of Politics, identifies Puritanism as an early example of what he called "gnostic" (vol. V, chapter 5, pp. 196-219, "Gnostic Revolution: the Puritan Case").

    Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, that great satire on the Puritans, observed that they

    "Call Fire, and Sword, and Desolation,
    A godly thorough Reformation,
    Which always must be carry'd on,
    And still be doing, never done:
    As if Religion were intended
    For nothing else but to be mended."

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    Modern leftism is a sort of Puritanism from which the Christianity has been excised, leaving behind only its fanaticism and moral vanity. It is not surprising that it should acquire so many followers in places like the Cambridges of Old and New England, which had been suffused with Voegelinian Gnosticism for centuries. As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, "Cambridge is second in all things, except treason."

    It wasn’t Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    A public school education is supposed to make one immune to traitorous impulses….

    As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, “Cambridge is second in all things, except treason.”

    I once heard a Cambridge-trained historian remark that Oxford men are simply too stupid to betray their country in the name of ideology.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    A public school education is supposed to make one immune to traitorous impulses...
     
    Obviously it was not proof against the seductions (in more than one sense) of Anthony Blunt and Cambridge.

    This reminds me of the old Etonian Col. Peter Hawker's opinion that a University education amounted to spending £50 a year to debauch a young man's morals and destroy his constitution. Col. Hawker died in 1853. The only difference since his time is the effect inflation has had on the price.

  95. @Barnard
    I think it is fairly common for some of these women to be rebellious when choosing men. It is weird she chose someone who seemed like such a loser though.

    Just in my circle of acquaintances, I can think of two cases. One was the daughter of a patrician family in Rochester. The other is the daughter of a retired faculty member at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Quite handsome girls with better options.

  96. @syonredux

    It wasn’t Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.
     
    A public school education is supposed to make one immune to traitorous impulses....

    As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, “Cambridge is second in all things, except treason.”
     
    I once heard a Cambridge-trained historian remark that Oxford men are simply too stupid to betray their country in the name of ideology.

    A public school education is supposed to make one immune to traitorous impulses…

    Obviously it was not proof against the seductions (in more than one sense) of Anthony Blunt and Cambridge.

    This reminds me of the old Etonian Col. Peter Hawker’s opinion that a University education amounted to spending £50 a year to debauch a young man’s morals and destroy his constitution. Col. Hawker died in 1853. The only difference since his time is the effect inflation has had on the price.

  97. @anonymous
    By the third generation a lot of families become victims of their own success and become decadent. They've lived in expensive bubbles their entire lives and are bored. The girl was probably thrilled to meet a strapping tough guy like Tamerlan who is quite unlike the wimpy rich guys she was used to dealing with. Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush's grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush’s grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    No, your imagination tells you they’re ‘mostly dopey’. For the most part, they’re not public figures and the granular details of their lives are bruited about very little. One of Jeb’s children is known to be something of a sad wreck. That’s one out of about 12.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush's lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It's pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

  98. @Desiderius
    Philby et. al. didn't see themselves as traitors.

    As Moldbug has noted, they saw themselves as the senior partners in the inevitable next stage of humanity (past nationalism), with the Soviets as juniors.

    It's still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    It’s still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    It’s been 100% clear for a generation. It’s a reasonable wager that it was within a year of their arriving in Moscow 95% clear to them that they were redundant.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Redundant or ahead of their time?
  99. @Jack D
    As I mention in another post, if they saw themselves that way they were delusional (and probably their handlers encouraged that delusion) - when Philby got to Moscow he was not treated as senior partner but as senior citizen. If there had been a Communist takeover in GB, they would not have put Philby and his gang of poofters in charge either.

    And yet today Philby’s gang of poofters is in charge of us all.

    He was just a little ahead of his time. The ur-globohomo.

  100. @Crawfurdmuir
    It wasn't Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    Cambridge was historically associated with Puritanism - this is the reason why the New England Puritans named the seat of their great university after it, rather than after Oxford. While Oxford supported Charles I during the English Civil War, Cambridge supported Cromwell. On the political spectrum of Christianity, Calvinism and Puritanism must be understood to stand on the left, indeed, some strains of them on the far left. Eric Voegelin, in The New Science of Politics, identifies Puritanism as an early example of what he called "gnostic" (vol. V, chapter 5, pp. 196-219, "Gnostic Revolution: the Puritan Case").

    Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, that great satire on the Puritans, observed that they

    "Call Fire, and Sword, and Desolation,
    A godly thorough Reformation,
    Which always must be carry'd on,
    And still be doing, never done:
    As if Religion were intended
    For nothing else but to be mended."

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    Modern leftism is a sort of Puritanism from which the Christianity has been excised, leaving behind only its fanaticism and moral vanity. It is not surprising that it should acquire so many followers in places like the Cambridges of Old and New England, which had been suffused with Voegelinian Gnosticism for centuries. As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, "Cambridge is second in all things, except treason."

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    In practice, done well it’s more akin to Deming’s continuous improvement. It’s the lifeblood of all Christian spiritual discipline, not just puritan.

  101. http://harvardmagazine.com/2017/03/a-vast-slave-society

    Steve check this out. Here’s your favorite black intellectual who gave the keynote speech at a white guilt conference at Harvard/Radcliffe. Said Coates, slavery is not a bump on the road, it is the road. Reparations are owed. The audience broke out into applause. Hard to believe. Right out of 1984, everyone looking right and left to know how to respond.

    • Replies: @res
    This quote from TNC explains a lot: “We talk about enslavement as if it were a bump in the road. And I tell people: it’s the road. It’s the actual road.”
  102. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    Let me guess. You’re actually Jerry Sandusky.

  103. Steve,

    Murray belatedly takes my advice and turns his guns, such as they are, on the SPLC.

    https://www.aei.org/publication/charles-murrays-splc-page-as-edited-by-charles-murray/

  104. @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    I am beginning to think whiskey is the Godfrey Elfwick of the Steve-o-sphere.

  105. @jJay
    One of his sons became a doctor...

    And tell me more about that! My eldest daughter did well on her MCATs, not a genius, but she was certainly within the bounds that make a decent GP.

    In college she changed her undergraduate major from a BS in biology to a BA in biology with a minor in Chinese studies She did this because medical schools don't think BSs are well rounded enough to practice medicine. She went to f*cking Thailand to help build houses for the poor in order to pad her application resume. Because that's what you're supposed to do to get admitted to medical school.

    I know zilch about biology so I don't have very good handle on her qualifications. All I know is she passed the tests and jumped through the hoops. So when I see that some shitload's kid got into medical school the alarm bell rings.

    The internet is saying that Dr. Warren King Russell attended either Texas Tech or Texas A&M (’89) medical school. Either one is odd considering Russell’s historical ties to the Northeast and the numerous medical schools in the region. However, if Vice President Bush had to pull strings to get someone into medical school, I suppose Texas is where they would have wound up.

  106. In practice, done well it’s more akin to Deming’s continuous improvement. It’s the lifeblood of all Christian spiritual discipline, not just puritan.

    The Puritans’ notion that Reformation “always must be carried on/And still be doing, never done:/As if Religion were intended/For nothing else but to be mended” referred not to the devotion of the individual, but to the constant upheaval in the polity and liturgy of the church that was characteristic of the Puritan interregnum.

    Swift, in his Tale of a Tub, allegorizes the three main divisions of Christianity in his time in the persons of three brothers: Peter (named after St. Peter, symbolizing the Church of Rome), Martin (named after Martin Luther, and representing the Church of England), and Jack (named after John Calvin, but also after John Knox, “knocking Jack of the North,” and John of Leyden, personifying the Puritans).

    Each brother has received a garment from his father, with strict instructions to keep it in a pristine condition. As time passed, following the lead of Peter, the brothers embroidered and ornamented their garments until the original fabric was largely covered. Martin then realizes that this is not in keeping with his father’s instructions, and tries to remove the ornaments as best he can without damaging the garment. Jack, however, thinks this is not enough, and tears away recklessly, destroying not only the decorations, but leaving the underlying cloth in tatters.

    Jacks’ behavior seems to me an apt characterization of the “continual revolution” of the Puritans. It is impossible to make a “continuous improvement” in Christianity as given to us by its Founder, only to approach it as closely as possible. Puritanism, and the plethora of heterodoxies that arose under it during the Interregnum, were often justified as efforts to return to “primitive Christianity,” but were in fact wild leaps of the so-called reformers’ imaginations, and like the figure of Jack in Swift’s allegory, they shredded the historic garment of Christianity.

  107. @Mr. Anon

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It’s, shall we say, way out there.
     
    You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media. Say what one will about Whiskey, but he does occasionally have something interesting to say. That can never be said about you.

    “You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media.”

    Project much?

    Now, I’m sure with your brood of daughters, and your own fatherly touch, you could share your words of wisdom on how you control, I mean gently influence, their conduct. We are all ears…

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "Project much?"

    Wow, so clever.

    No. I observe

  108. Doesn’t “x degrees removed from Kevin Bacon” hold true for Literally Everybody?

    So just because somebody’s “grandfather in law” would be a member of a Yale secret society means everyone in the family, by blood and marriage, is on the payroll of OSS/CIA?

    Nah. If you start mapping out family members of S&B members to the grandchild-in-law degree, you’re going to get into a lot of people. Especially for those families where men are inclined to take more than one wife in their lifetimes.

    I wouldn’t consider that a “deep state.” People tend to hire from/circulate among the circles they’re familiar with. The “deep state” part comes in when they actually have, and agree to protect, interests that others might want to disrupt, and those interests become protected with secrecy.

    That’s the thing about “open borders” immigration policy. It actually serves people way behind the scenes, and their agendas. But we never get to see what those are because the surging bodies comprise the distraction and the deeper digging doesn’t happen. (For instance, who is paying for the EuroImmivasion? Those ships don’t charter themselves, you know.)

  109. @Lagertha
    It pains me to say, "what is your problem?" Whiskey, this is not even cool anymore...forget fun and erudite. Vibrators are not gonna solve issues (anyone with serious sexual issues) , but, you are becoming banal. I agree so much with you about shallow women, I really do. I also, ....ahhh forgetaboudid.

    Becoming banal? He was banal ten years ago (back when he was “Evil Neocon”). Probably he was banal even before that (back when he was who-knows-what).

  110. @Corvinus
    "Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls."

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It's, shall we say, way out there.

    "If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave."

    I'm sure that you, as a father of several white daughters, are laying down the law regarding how they act in public. At least throw us louts a bone here and there regarding your tricks of the trade. I'm sure as the proud pappy you are willing to celebrate your success.

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork.

    That’s because you and he would score similarly on a certain kind of test.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "That’s because you and he would score similarly on a certain kind of test."

    You're right. We both scored a 26 on this test. What is your value?

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-men
  111. @jJay
    One of his sons became a doctor...

    And tell me more about that! My eldest daughter did well on her MCATs, not a genius, but she was certainly within the bounds that make a decent GP.

    In college she changed her undergraduate major from a BS in biology to a BA in biology with a minor in Chinese studies She did this because medical schools don't think BSs are well rounded enough to practice medicine. She went to f*cking Thailand to help build houses for the poor in order to pad her application resume. Because that's what you're supposed to do to get admitted to medical school.

    I know zilch about biology so I don't have very good handle on her qualifications. All I know is she passed the tests and jumped through the hoops. So when I see that some shitload's kid got into medical school the alarm bell rings.

    I’m not trying to pick on your daughter, but I would like to point out a few things that might help someone else in the future.

    Medical schools don’t care whether a degree is a BA or BS or what the major is. What is important is the overall GPA and the GPA for the eight or so pre-med courses. In order to increase the odds of admission, the undergraduate college should be on the same level as the medical school. For example, Stanford’s medical school admits very few students applying from California State University schools.

    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American and Asian-Americans in general tend to not have many negative disparities in health, so an interest in that population really doesn’t earn any extra points. She would have been better off learning Spanish or minoring in African American Studies.

    Volunteering overseas is looked down up because schools know that most volunteers are just padding their resume, something you yourself admitted. Thailand is a very developed country. They don’t need unskilled laborers building houses. Volunteering in the US and interacting with people, ideally over a number of years, would have been better — tutoring, soup kitchen, HIV awareness, etc.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American

    About 17% of the professional doctorates in medicine and peri-medical occupations are awarded to Orientals and East Indians (2014 datum).
  112. @Art Deco
    Look at the Bush family: GHW Bush’s grandchildren are mostly dopey and some are Hispanic. The fourth generation will look like what?

    No, your imagination tells you they're 'mostly dopey'. For the most part, they're not public figures and the granular details of their lives are bruited about very little. One of Jeb's children is known to be something of a sad wreck. That's one out of about 12.

    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush’s lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It’s pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush?
     
    Yep:

    Lauren Pierce Bush Lauren (born June 25, 1984) is the CEO and Co-Founder of FEED Projects. She is also known for her previous career as a fashion model and designer.[1] She is a daughter of Neil Bush and Sharon Bush (née Smith), granddaughter of former President George H. W. Bush and niece of former President George W. Bush.
     

    She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.
     
    Son:

    She began dating David Lauren, son of fashion designer Ralph Lauren, in 2004. On September 4, 2011, she and Lauren married in Colorado.[22][23] Their son, James Richard Lauren, was born November 21, 2015.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Bush
    , @syonredux

    It’s pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.
     
    Leonard Jerome (Winston Churchill's American grandfather) was quite a fellow:

    Jerome was a flamboyant and successful stock speculator. He made and lost several fortunes, and was known as "The King of Wall Street". He held interests in several railroad companies and was often a partner in the deals of Cornelius Vanderbilt.[1] He was a patron of the arts, and founded the Academy of Music, one of New York City's earliest opera houses.
    During the New York Draft Riots, Jerome defended the New York Times office building with a Gatling Gun.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Jerome
    , @Triumph104
    George P. Bush became an intelligence officer with the Navy Reserves through a three week direct commission officer program instead of the normal channels (Naval Academy, NROTC, or Officer Candidate School).
    , @Art Deco
    George P. married a law school classmate, which is something anyone who attends law school might do. His brother married a somewhat exotic philanthropic-sector functionary. One of his cousins married a Naval officer trying to segue to a business career. Another married the son of a family friend who is working in marketing. Another married the scion of a politically-connected family in Virginia; scion in question has a private equity job. I guess some of these chaps might qualify as 'hard charging'. Or not.
  113. OT

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ex-cia-director-mike-flynn-and-turkish-officials-discussed-removal-of-erdogan-foe-from-u-s-1490380426

    James Woolsey says he attended a September meeting where other participants, including then-Trump adviser Mike Flynn, talked of moving Fethullah Gulen back to Turkey without going through U.S. extradition process

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Mrs. Thatcher had the Great Train Robber kidnapped from Brazil.
  114. @Andrei Martyanov

    And chicks dig Chechens.
     
    One of the episodes of Married With Children actually featured some "Chechen" guy (allegedly an exchange student in US) who wins over Bud Bundy's bid to date at that time gorgeous looking young Kerry Russel. I believe the "Chechen" character had a surprisingly very Russian name.

    “Besting Bud Bundy in a girl-getting contest” is kinda like “Besting George Costanza in a hair-growing contest.”

  115. @Anonymous
    OT

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ex-cia-director-mike-flynn-and-turkish-officials-discussed-removal-of-erdogan-foe-from-u-s-1490380426

    James Woolsey says he attended a September meeting where other participants, including then-Trump adviser Mike Flynn, talked of moving Fethullah Gulen back to Turkey without going through U.S. extradition process
     

    Mrs. Thatcher had the Great Train Robber kidnapped from Brazil.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Mrs. Thatcher cared more about her own people, and had bigger cajones, than any American president since at least Eisenhower (arguably, Truman)....
  116. @Mr. Anon
    The girls' family should have disowned her when she married that chechen douche-bag. Shunning is out of fashion nowadays. Pity. It is a necessary tool in keeping societies in good working order.

    If she voted for Trump, she’d be disowned like an Amish blogger.

  117. @Bill

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork.
     
    That's because you and he would score similarly on a certain kind of test.

    “That’s because you and he would score similarly on a certain kind of test.”

    You’re right. We both scored a 26 on this test. What is your value?

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-men

  118. @Corvinus
    "Can you stop with the “what would Jesus do” stuff? It’s tiresome."

    No, it is relevant here. Would it be fair to say that you are not a Christian?

    "Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus?"

    I do my best to adhere to His principles. How about yourself?

    "Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don’t?"

    Those Southern white Christians who preached the Good Book, yet found it in their soul to denigrate their fellow black Christians through Jim Crow laws and customs are assuredly hypocrites.

    "It’s abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did."

    You are ignorant to believe that millions of Americans today do NOT work toward living their life according to the will of God.

    "Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model."

    He died for our sins, including your transgressions. Apparently, you are not Christian, as it appears you lack even basic understanding of what Jesus stood for.

    Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!"

    Jack D is Jewish? I thought Jew bashing on this fine blog was en vogue. Best check yourself, man.
  119. @Jake
    WASP Elites supporting in various ways, including marriage, various non-whites and non-Christians is par for the course, especially when those non0whites and /or non-Christians are radicals with a special animus against the people the WASP Elites see as 'white trash.'

    Nothing new in that. That was necessary to Jews taking over the Anglosphere.

    Jews “took over the Anglosphere” in the imaginations of Unz combox denizens and nowhere else. The American Jewish population is declining demographically due to inter-marriage and low fertility rates to boot. The one component which is healthy would be the Orthodox, who are seldom in influential (or particularly lucrative) positions.

  120. @Steve Sailer
    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush's lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It's pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush?

    Yep:

    Lauren Pierce Bush Lauren (born June 25, 1984) is the CEO and Co-Founder of FEED Projects. She is also known for her previous career as a fashion model and designer.[1] She is a daughter of Neil Bush and Sharon Bush (née Smith), granddaughter of former President George H. W. Bush and niece of former President George W. Bush.

    She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    Son:

    She began dating David Lauren, son of fashion designer Ralph Lauren, in 2004. On September 4, 2011, she and Lauren married in Colorado.[22][23] Their son, James Richard Lauren, was born November 21, 2015.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Bush

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    And like any good Bush and Nice White Lady, she is working maniacally to increase overpopulation in "Cambodia, Chad, and Guatemala."

    Those disgusting white people in the U.S.A. can, of course, go to Hell for all she cares.

    I note she has only a high school education, like most poor but hardworking Americans. Doubtless her rarified lifestyle stems entirely from her innate genius and hard work, though.

    Ah, the narcissism of small differences....

  121. Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    You take that back – you’re talking about a disproportionately Jewish group there, buddy.

    Oswald’s wife got out of the Soviet Union to prosperous Dallas, TX, didn’t she?

    And some Russian chicks dig a guy who keeps it under a fifth of vodka a day.

  122. @Steve Sailer
    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush's lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It's pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    It’s pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    Leonard Jerome (Winston Churchill’s American grandfather) was quite a fellow:

    Jerome was a flamboyant and successful stock speculator. He made and lost several fortunes, and was known as “The King of Wall Street”. He held interests in several railroad companies and was often a partner in the deals of Cornelius Vanderbilt.[1] He was a patron of the arts, and founded the Academy of Music, one of New York City’s earliest opera houses.
    During the New York Draft Riots, Jerome defended the New York Times office building with a Gatling Gun.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Jerome

  123. @Hunsdon
    Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!

    “Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!”

    Jack D is Jewish? I thought Jew bashing on this fine blog was en vogue. Best check yourself, man.

  124. So much for all the drought scaremongering. San Diego is the dryest major metro in California (unless you want to count Palm Springs) but has far more water supply than needed and does not want a new pipe from Northern California.

    http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/science-environment/southern-california-is-drowning-in-drought-proofing-projects/

    Most of the water from our cool new billion dollar desalination plant in Carlsbad is going right into open reservoirs where it evaporates.

  125. @Jake
    WASP Elites supporting in various ways, including marriage, various non-whites and non-Christians is par for the course, especially when those non0whites and /or non-Christians are radicals with a special animus against the people the WASP Elites see as 'white trash.'

    Nothing new in that. That was necessary to Jews taking over the Anglosphere.

    Agreed. Ango-Saxons (i.e., English) have been using other ethnies to exploit and oppress Celts (i.e., “white trash”) since before the two groups even came to America.

    Current circumstances are so dire, though, that this sort of thing must be set aside except to the extent it must be addressed to unite us; internecine squabbling among Europeans must stop—its apex during the first half of the twentieth century, and the aftermath therefrom, are what caused the existential threat we now face.

    • Agree: Bill B.
  126. @Steve Sailer
    Mrs. Thatcher had the Great Train Robber kidnapped from Brazil.

    Mrs. Thatcher cared more about her own people, and had bigger cajones, than any American president since at least Eisenhower (arguably, Truman)….

  127. @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    Quite correct about the British upper class. On the other hand it is to a degree a matter of choice. I know Old Etonians now in their 50s who affect a semi-Cockney voice which must have driven their parents crazy – just as the children of these pathetic flower children are now horrifying their parents by returning to “mega posh” accents. In my experience it is the country gents and their wives, people for whom a trip to London is a vexing break in their routine, who sound the most authentically old-fashioned, and I mean people in their thirties.
    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation. Thier wives were often even grander in style: I once read a newspaper account of an interview with Joseph Clark Grew (also Groton and Harvard). The interviewer commented that his accent, although unusual, was recognizably American, but that of his wife was offensively “foreign”. She was a as American as her husband, and a grandchild of Oliver Hazard Perry.
    Anyway, Bertrand Russell will give you the accent of the top class of his generation: Keynes was upper middle.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation.
     
    Perhaps two or perhaps more generations.

    If you listen to the American Presidents at the links below,

    Grover Cleveland (b. 1837) and William McKinley (b. 1843) have that vaguely mid-Atlantic accent of which Buckley's was perhaps a something of a caricature. Teddy Roosevelt (b. 1858) has only a hint of it.

    Benjamin Harrison (b. 1833) has a recognizably Midwestern, neutral, accent, and William Howard Taft's (b. 1857) accent wouldn't be out of place today. Both were born in Ohio.


    http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2015/11/03/roosevelt-taft-wilson-sounded-like/

    http://vvl.lib.msu.edu/
    , @PiltdownMan
    Here are Joseph Clark Grew (in 1927) and Bertrand Russell (in 1932).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDychnjcca8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvsPgCx-gMA
  128. Is now a good time to announce some new West Bank settlements and take the news off the health care bill debacle?

    I like the idea of Bibi announcing 8,000 new homes, and Trump coming in and making a deal to reduce it to 5,000 and shutting down a few of those crazy outposts of 75 Jews surrounded by 40,000 Arabs.

    Did I say West Bank? Bad habit. It is Judea and Samaria.

    Fun fact: Samaritans still exist but have largely assimilated with Israeli Jews.

  129. This is also kind of weird. Why would Jews phone in calls like that? It’s a mystery.

    http://newobserveronline.com/jews-scramble-second-israeli-arrested-jcc-threats/

  130. @jJay
    One of his sons became a doctor...

    And tell me more about that! My eldest daughter did well on her MCATs, not a genius, but she was certainly within the bounds that make a decent GP.

    In college she changed her undergraduate major from a BS in biology to a BA in biology with a minor in Chinese studies She did this because medical schools don't think BSs are well rounded enough to practice medicine. She went to f*cking Thailand to help build houses for the poor in order to pad her application resume. Because that's what you're supposed to do to get admitted to medical school.

    I know zilch about biology so I don't have very good handle on her qualifications. All I know is she passed the tests and jumped through the hoops. So when I see that some shitload's kid got into medical school the alarm bell rings.

    Just because we’re rich doesn’t mean we’re stupid.

  131. @Alden
    Amazing. Question is why would the CIA want to bomb the Boston marathon. Nothing resulted. We didn't declare war on Chechnya. We didn't institute TSA style checkpoints all over the cities.

    Reasonable people thought the bombing proved a need to crack down on Muslim immigrants. Liberals of course just blathered on about the religion of peace and worried about racist prejudice against Muslims.

    I think sometimes they use these operations as prep for other, bigger, operations.

    See what they can get away with, how they can manage the patsies, gauge how the public reacts, see how they can manage the media, etc.

  132. @Twinkie

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.
     
    You don't know any real "upper class White girls," judging from this nonsense. Most of them don't even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.

    Funny to see your two recent comments. I have 3 people blocked and two of them are Testing99 and Urethra.

    You should consider taking Unz up on the blockong business. If you filter the people you’re subjected to, you might not get frustrated with humanity as quickly.

  133. @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    I know one person in his 30’s who has an old WASP accent. Third generation banker and UES resident.

    Another is Christopher Buckley.

    I agree it is dying out fast.

    Trump’s sister has a posh but not waspy accent. No trace of Queens in her voice, she has the older upper class lady version of General American.

  134. @Anonymouse
    http://harvardmagazine.com/2017/03/a-vast-slave-society

    Steve check this out. Here's your favorite black intellectual who gave the keynote speech at a white guilt conference at Harvard/Radcliffe. Said Coates, slavery is not a bump on the road, it is the road. Reparations are owed. The audience broke out into applause. Hard to believe. Right out of 1984, everyone looking right and left to know how to respond.

    This quote from TNC explains a lot: “We talk about enslavement as if it were a bump in the road. And I tell people: it’s the road. It’s the actual road.”

  135. @Corvinus
    "Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls."

    I always enjoy your pop psychology handiwork. It's, shall we say, way out there.

    "If you want to stop all this — you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave."

    I'm sure that you, as a father of several white daughters, are laying down the law regarding how they act in public. At least throw us louts a bone here and there regarding your tricks of the trade. I'm sure as the proud pappy you are willing to celebrate your success.

    I have the local autist blocked but did he claim to be the father of several daughters??

    I assume either you were joking or he was lying.

    I really do hope I’m wrong though because thay would be absolutely hilarious.

    Again though, you gotta be joking. Nobody hates girls as much as this dude

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I have the local autist blocked but did he claim to be the father of several daughters?? I assume either you were joking or he was lying."

    I was joking. Poetic justice if he was married and had daughters, but I thought he is single. I wonder why...

    "Again though, you gotta be joking. Nobody hates girls as much as this dude."

    I would say Chateau Heartiste takes the prize in that contest.
  136. @Steve Sailer
    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush's lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It's pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    George P. Bush became an intelligence officer with the Navy Reserves through a three week direct commission officer program instead of the normal channels (Naval Academy, NROTC, or Officer Candidate School).

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Hunter Biden received a direct commission (under a special dispensation - he was 44 at the time) for a public affairs position. He tested positive for cocaine at the time of his first drill and was tossed out. (Lately, he's been banging his brother's widow).
  137. @syonredux

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush?
     
    Yep:

    Lauren Pierce Bush Lauren (born June 25, 1984) is the CEO and Co-Founder of FEED Projects. She is also known for her previous career as a fashion model and designer.[1] She is a daughter of Neil Bush and Sharon Bush (née Smith), granddaughter of former President George H. W. Bush and niece of former President George W. Bush.
     

    She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.
     
    Son:

    She began dating David Lauren, son of fashion designer Ralph Lauren, in 2004. On September 4, 2011, she and Lauren married in Colorado.[22][23] Their son, James Richard Lauren, was born November 21, 2015.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Bush

    And like any good Bush and Nice White Lady, she is working maniacally to increase overpopulation in “Cambodia, Chad, and Guatemala.”

    Those disgusting white people in the U.S.A. can, of course, go to Hell for all she cares.

    I note she has only a high school education, like most poor but hardworking Americans. Doubtless her rarified lifestyle stems entirely from her innate genius and hard work, though.

    Ah, the narcissism of small differences….

  138. @Steve Sailer
    And various young Bushes are using their social standing to marry well. George P. Bush's lawyer wife looks impressive.

    Is Lauren Lauren a grandchild of GHW Bush? She married a son or grandson of self-made billionaire Ralph Lauren.

    It's pretty common for aristocrats to align in marriage with hard-chargers rising up out of the middle class and thus give their offspring a genetic jolt. Winston Churchill was a product of that kind of marriage. So the Churchill name was world famous in the early 1700s and the mid 1900s.

    George P. married a law school classmate, which is something anyone who attends law school might do. His brother married a somewhat exotic philanthropic-sector functionary. One of his cousins married a Naval officer trying to segue to a business career. Another married the son of a family friend who is working in marketing. Another married the scion of a politically-connected family in Virginia; scion in question has a private equity job. I guess some of these chaps might qualify as ‘hard charging’. Or not.

  139. @Triumph104
    I'm not trying to pick on your daughter, but I would like to point out a few things that might help someone else in the future.

    Medical schools don't care whether a degree is a BA or BS or what the major is. What is important is the overall GPA and the GPA for the eight or so pre-med courses. In order to increase the odds of admission, the undergraduate college should be on the same level as the medical school. For example, Stanford's medical school admits very few students applying from California State University schools.

    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American and Asian-Americans in general tend to not have many negative disparities in health, so an interest in that population really doesn't earn any extra points. She would have been better off learning Spanish or minoring in African American Studies.

    Volunteering overseas is looked down up because schools know that most volunteers are just padding their resume, something you yourself admitted. Thailand is a very developed country. They don't need unskilled laborers building houses. Volunteering in the US and interacting with people, ideally over a number of years, would have been better -- tutoring, soup kitchen, HIV awareness, etc.

    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American

    About 17% of the professional doctorates in medicine and peri-medical occupations are awarded to Orientals and East Indians (2014 datum).

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    I stand corrected.

    21% (4475/21030) of matriculants to US medical schools in 2016-2017 were Asian.

    https://www.aamc.org/download/321478/data/factstablea11.pdf
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    You're not including foreign-medical graduates that do residencies in America or U.S. doctors that studied in the Carribean. Both groups are disproprortionately Asian Indian.

    Your stats are just for U.S. medical schools, not residencies.

  140. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Whiskey
    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.

    The more killings we have by Muslims, the more tingles. Thus the greater demand for more Muslims to feed the tingles.

    If you want to stop all this -- you either need to make Muslims into boring nerdy dudes obsessed by baseball stats or crush ruthlessly the influence of Nice White Ladies and Girls. And their fathers, who lack the will or desire to simply make their daughters behave.

    The guy was white and athletic. She was attracted to the guy. And then got into a dysfunctional relationship with him. It’s just one of those things. A lot of females are submissive or ‘subbies’ and don’t fit the current cultural ideal of nth generation feminism (I have no idea of n). He was good enough for others to think he had boxing ability. Most parents have the experience of their kids ignoring their advice as they become older. I don’t think you can blame the family for their daughter’s poor choices when she was a young adult. This is pretty much a non event.

    The surprising part of the entire incident to me is that he seemed to be able to make the devices with a simple recipe and they worked without evidence of testing. Your typical Middle Eastern bomber seems to be extremely incompetent regarding the basic skills to detonate anything. The entire WoT is based on disrupting social networks. But these guys just followed a recipe and had a couple of pretty decent home made bombs. That makes the notion of spying on everyone fairly ineffective, thus undermining the rationale for the highly intrusive collection of what the agencies claim is ‘meta-data’ on every American.

    Maybe we have moved on and terrorists will just rent an SUV and use it directly as a weapon. But the fact that this might as well have come out of nowhere is one reason why it stands out as an incident. At least I hope we don’t see a lot of 2 for 1 sales on pressure cookers.

    The CIA connection is more than tenuous, but interesting. It would be surprising if they didn’t have their fingerprints somewhere around this incident. Although there are multiple, competing intelligence outfits and it could have been any of them.

  141. @Crawfurdmuir
    It wasn't Eton or Westminster that made Burgess and Philby into traitors, but rather Cambridge. That was where they were recruited by Anthony Blunt.

    Cambridge was historically associated with Puritanism - this is the reason why the New England Puritans named the seat of their great university after it, rather than after Oxford. While Oxford supported Charles I during the English Civil War, Cambridge supported Cromwell. On the political spectrum of Christianity, Calvinism and Puritanism must be understood to stand on the left, indeed, some strains of them on the far left. Eric Voegelin, in The New Science of Politics, identifies Puritanism as an early example of what he called "gnostic" (vol. V, chapter 5, pp. 196-219, "Gnostic Revolution: the Puritan Case").

    Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, that great satire on the Puritans, observed that they

    "Call Fire, and Sword, and Desolation,
    A godly thorough Reformation,
    Which always must be carry'd on,
    And still be doing, never done:
    As if Religion were intended
    For nothing else but to be mended."

    Is this not a near-perfect prefiguration of the doctrine of continual revolution advocated by Trotsky and Mao?

    Modern leftism is a sort of Puritanism from which the Christianity has been excised, leaving behind only its fanaticism and moral vanity. It is not surprising that it should acquire so many followers in places like the Cambridges of Old and New England, which had been suffused with Voegelinian Gnosticism for centuries. As an Oxonian friend of mine once quipped, "Cambridge is second in all things, except treason."

    “That great satire…”

    Yeah, and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert were accurate chroniclers of the Bush II administration. SNL is the most accurate account of the Trump administration so far.

    If you’d bothered to read the entire Hudibras excerpt, you’d see that Butler used the word Presbyterian to refer to the Puritans. This is accurate terminology. Moldbug, of course, omits the word when he recycles the quote. I wonder why.

    The term Presbyterian is usually associated with Scotland, and indeed Scotland was the most “puritanical” part of Britain in the 17th century. Look up the witch burning stats.

    Scotland was a Calvinist Presbyterian theocracy when Cromwell was a baby, and the Scots were the first to fight against Charles I in the Bishops War. The Ulster Scots were, naturally, Presbyterians.

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the "light within," adheres to the Independent faction:

    "Whate'er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i' th' right.
    'Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration."

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges -

    "For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond'rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM'S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th' intelligible world, cou'd say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn'd as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown'd.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou'd do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned."

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin's apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog - I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I'd refer you to Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.
    , @Autochthon

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.
     
    I've never read word one written by this Moldbug character so many here go on about, but I'm fascinated to understand how you figure Scots presbyterians were (or are, given that the diaspora in America are overwhelmingly what actual leftists would dismiss as rednecks clinging to guns and religion) leftists.

    Is rejection of a debauched and profaned church established so its founding monarch could expand his opportunities for hiding sausage leftist? Is rejection of centralised authority under that same (hostile, foreign) church and monarchy in favor of local accountability (i.e., presbyteries) leftist? Perhaps we have a semantic misunderstanding?
  142. @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    I think you might find of the cohorts now approaching 90, some of the women have boarding school accents but the men do not. The Buckleys seemed affected because among their contemporaries it was unusual even in that stratum.

    Here’s Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr., who was 3/4 of a generation older than Buckley, Massachusetts born and bred. You hear only a hint of it.

  143. @Triumph104
    George P. Bush became an intelligence officer with the Navy Reserves through a three week direct commission officer program instead of the normal channels (Naval Academy, NROTC, or Officer Candidate School).

    Hunter Biden received a direct commission (under a special dispensation – he was 44 at the time) for a public affairs position. He tested positive for cocaine at the time of his first drill and was tossed out. (Lately, he’s been banging his brother’s widow).

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Art Deco:

    Hunter Biden is a real nefarious character. What bears investigating is his lucrative role in Ukraine where his father effectively acted as Pro Consul.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Amazing.

    http://pagesix.com/2017/03/01/widow-of-joe-bidens-deceased-son-having-affair-with-brother-in-law-hunter/

    Hunter Biden left his wife for his late brother's widow.

    After Hunter Biden started an affair with his dead brother's widow, maybe Hunter's wife caught him and ended their marriage.
  144. @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    Dunno. The Estuary Accent is spreading

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

    And even the Royal Family is not entirely immune:

    And yet, when you hear William and Kate actually speak, her accent is (to my ears) more “aristocratic sounding” than his. Look at this clip of the young couple discussing their upcoming nuptials.

    Both fiancee’s speak within the “Near-RP” family of accents (speech that is close to Received Pronunciation/Standard British, but with a few regionalisms or contemporary features thrown in). However, William’s accent has a quite bit of Estuary English (modern London-inflected English) mixed in: his diphthong is words like KITE starts at a backer place (compare his “side” [sɒɪd] vs. her “I” [aɪ]); and his diphthong in words like GOAT is closer to Estuary as well (compare his “no” [nɜʉ] to her more genteel “know” [nəʊ]).

    So, in my opinion, the Prince speaks a bit closer to the average Tom, Dick and Harry than his “common born” wife, who ironically speaks with a more, shall we say, royal-sounding accent.

    What are we to make of this? I think this says several things about the radically changing attitudes toward dialect in the UK:

    1.) If (probably when) William becomes monarch, he will perhaps be the first in British history to speak with an accent relatively close to how “average English people” speak.

    2.) The ties between class and accent further continue to weaken in the UK. The spread of Estuary English is beginning to look at lot like the spread of General American in the mid-20th-Century US.

    3.) Is it time to start ringing the death knells of Received Pronunciation? If in a few decades we’ll see a king who doesn’t speak the Queen’s English, then how much longer can this accent survive?

    http://dialectblog.com/2011/05/01/william-and-kates-accent/

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    It's his cousin Zara that speaks with the Estuary accent (and has a rough cut husband to go with it). Listen to her mother and then listen to her.


    People have accused Samantha Cameron of affecting elements of Estuary English, true or not.

  145. @syonredux

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.
     
    Dunno. The Estuary Accent is spreading

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

    And even the Royal Family is not entirely immune:

    And yet, when you hear William and Kate actually speak, her accent is (to my ears) more “aristocratic sounding” than his. Look at this clip of the young couple discussing their upcoming nuptials.

    Both fiancee’s speak within the “Near-RP” family of accents (speech that is close to Received Pronunciation/Standard British, but with a few regionalisms or contemporary features thrown in). However, William’s accent has a quite bit of Estuary English (modern London-inflected English) mixed in: his diphthong is words like KITE starts at a backer place (compare his “side” [sɒɪd] vs. her “I” [aɪ]); and his diphthong in words like GOAT is closer to Estuary as well (compare his “no” [nɜʉ] to her more genteel “know” [nəʊ]).

    So, in my opinion, the Prince speaks a bit closer to the average Tom, Dick and Harry than his “common born” wife, who ironically speaks with a more, shall we say, royal-sounding accent.


    What are we to make of this? I think this says several things about the radically changing attitudes toward dialect in the UK:

    1.) If (probably when) William becomes monarch, he will perhaps be the first in British history to speak with an accent relatively close to how “average English people” speak.

    2.) The ties between class and accent further continue to weaken in the UK. The spread of Estuary English is beginning to look at lot like the spread of General American in the mid-20th-Century US.

    3.) Is it time to start ringing the death knells of Received Pronunciation? If in a few decades we’ll see a king who doesn’t speak the Queen’s English, then how much longer can this accent survive?

     

    http://dialectblog.com/2011/05/01/william-and-kates-accent/

    It’s his cousin Zara that speaks with the Estuary accent (and has a rough cut husband to go with it). Listen to her mother and then listen to her.

    People have accused Samantha Cameron of affecting elements of Estuary English, true or not.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    It’s his cousin Zara that speaks with the Estuary accent
     
    He has elements of Estuary in his speech.
  146. @Moshe
    I have the local autist blocked but did he claim to be the father of several daughters??

    I assume either you were joking or he was lying.

    I really do hope I'm wrong though because thay would be absolutely hilarious.

    Again though, you gotta be joking. Nobody hates girls as much as this dude

    “I have the local autist blocked but did he claim to be the father of several daughters?? I assume either you were joking or he was lying.”

    I was joking. Poetic justice if he was married and had daughters, but I thought he is single. I wonder why…

    “Again though, you gotta be joking. Nobody hates girls as much as this dude.”

    I would say Chateau Heartiste takes the prize in that contest.

  147. Fun fact: Samaritans still exist but have largely assimilated with Israeli Jews.

    This was arguably Jesus’ goal with The Good Samaritan. Many baseless and ill-founded conclusions have been drawn, mostly via projection.

  148. Those Southern white Christians who preached the Good Book, yet found it in their soul to denigrate their fellow black Christians through Jim Crow laws and customs are assuredly hypocrites.

    Amazingly, still no word from Corvanus on the morality of Israeli Jews, their treatment of the Palestinians, etc.

    Apparently, bad stuff is only bad if White Christians do it.

  149. You’re obviously a bigot and a racist if you complain all the time about stuff White Christians did, and only stuff White Christians did, 50 years ago, 200 years ago, etc., while steadfastly ignoring what Jews are doing in Israel right now, despite having it thrown in your face every time you do the former.

  150. @Millennial
    "That great satire..."

    Yeah, and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert were accurate chroniclers of the Bush II administration. SNL is the most accurate account of the Trump administration so far.

    If you'd bothered to read the entire Hudibras excerpt, you'd see that Butler used the word Presbyterian to refer to the Puritans. This is accurate terminology. Moldbug, of course, omits the word when he recycles the quote. I wonder why.

    The term Presbyterian is usually associated with Scotland, and indeed Scotland was the most "puritanical" part of Britain in the 17th century. Look up the witch burning stats.

    Scotland was a Calvinist Presbyterian theocracy when Cromwell was a baby, and the Scots were the first to fight against Charles I in the Bishops War. The Ulster Scots were, naturally, Presbyterians.

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don't claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.

    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the “light within,” adheres to the Independent faction:

    “Whate’er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i’ th’ right.
    ‘Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration.”

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges –

    “For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond’rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM’S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th’ intelligible world, cou’d say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn’d as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown’d.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou’d do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned.”

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin’s apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog – I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I’d refer you to Hogg’s The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @syonredux

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug.
     
    Ancestor hunting, eh? That's a pleasurable activity, but it fails to take account of the fact that the leading Leftist thinkers (fellows like Marx, Foucault, Derrida, Lacan, Althusser, etc) are not descended from 17th century English Puritans.
    , @syonredux

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.
     
    Of course, there was also a notable scientific movement as well:Newton, Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, etc.
    , @syonredux

    . There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.
     
    Of course, Anne Hutchinson's doctrines were deeply antinomian and a threat to civil society.
    , @Millennial
    "Refer you to Hogg's..."

    Another episode of the 17th century Colbert Report.

    Santayana, really? More fiction?

    Back in the real world, why should an Englishman bow to a Scottish king and his French wife?

    Why should an Englishman obey Rome on matters of religion?
  151. @Millennial
    "That great satire..."

    Yeah, and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert were accurate chroniclers of the Bush II administration. SNL is the most accurate account of the Trump administration so far.

    If you'd bothered to read the entire Hudibras excerpt, you'd see that Butler used the word Presbyterian to refer to the Puritans. This is accurate terminology. Moldbug, of course, omits the word when he recycles the quote. I wonder why.

    The term Presbyterian is usually associated with Scotland, and indeed Scotland was the most "puritanical" part of Britain in the 17th century. Look up the witch burning stats.

    Scotland was a Calvinist Presbyterian theocracy when Cromwell was a baby, and the Scots were the first to fight against Charles I in the Bishops War. The Ulster Scots were, naturally, Presbyterians.

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don't claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.

    I’ve never read word one written by this Moldbug character so many here go on about, but I’m fascinated to understand how you figure Scots presbyterians were (or are, given that the diaspora in America are overwhelmingly what actual leftists would dismiss as rednecks clinging to guns and religion) leftists.

    Is rejection of a debauched and profaned church established so its founding monarch could expand his opportunities for hiding sausage leftist? Is rejection of centralised authority under that same (hostile, foreign) church and monarchy in favor of local accountability (i.e., presbyteries) leftist? Perhaps we have a semantic misunderstanding?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Moldbug overdoes it, but there's also a significant difference between Scottish Calvinists and English Puritans.
    , @syonredux

    I’ve never read word one written by this Moldbug character
     
    Don't bother. I sampled his wares a while back. He's a very tedious fellow, dilating at length on a point that can be summarized in a single sentence: Leftism exists because of 17th century Puritans. Of course, when you distill it down to its purest essence, the idiocy becomes a tad too apparent. Hence the need for all the verbiage.
    , @Millennial
    I was being sarcastic. The Scots Presbyterians were not leftists; neither were their counterparts in England. You are entirely correct about their motives.

    My point was that certain dishonest, and unfortunately influential commentators (like Moldbug) focus on "calvinism" and "puritanism" in England (and blame it for modern leftism) while ignoring the same "puritanism" in Scotland.

    Moldbug's whole thesis starts to unravel if you start asking things like "Why did the Scots rebel against Charles I in the 1630s" or "Why did John Knox think it was wrong to have a woman as the leader of your nation?"
  152. @Art Deco
    It's his cousin Zara that speaks with the Estuary accent (and has a rough cut husband to go with it). Listen to her mother and then listen to her.


    People have accused Samantha Cameron of affecting elements of Estuary English, true or not.

    It’s his cousin Zara that speaks with the Estuary accent

    He has elements of Estuary in his speech.

  153. @Chrisnonymous
    How's your son? Gotten another offer yet?

    very good ones (one very iStevie)…fortunately, they were earlier. He is never neurotic like me, so he’s good. Mountains or Beach….hard decision; all 3 cost the same.

  154. The Royals are considered hopelessly middle-class by the old families. The Queen and her children speak with recognizably upper-class voices, but before that they all spoke in a variety of ways: Germanic hints (and more) for the Georges, William, Victoria, and her son Edward VII. Then George V was perhaps acceptably English, but Edward VIII was strangely American in tone. Poor George VI was less eccentric, but it was undoubtedly his marriage with Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the daughter of an earl of ancient lineage, which brought received aristocratic pronunciation into the royal family for the first time since the Stuarts.
    Now it is all down hill, and soon the royal family will fulfill the prophecies of the great Peter Simple, with his King Norman the Good and his consort Queen Doreen, and their children Princes Barry and Kevin and Princesses Shirley and Tracey, not to mention Duke Len of Erdington, council house denizens all.

  155. @Art Deco
    It’s still not 100% clear that they were mistaken.

    It's been 100% clear for a generation. It's a reasonable wager that it was within a year of their arriving in Moscow 95% clear to them that they were redundant.

    Redundant or ahead of their time?

  156. @Autochthon

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.
     
    I've never read word one written by this Moldbug character so many here go on about, but I'm fascinated to understand how you figure Scots presbyterians were (or are, given that the diaspora in America are overwhelmingly what actual leftists would dismiss as rednecks clinging to guns and religion) leftists.

    Is rejection of a debauched and profaned church established so its founding monarch could expand his opportunities for hiding sausage leftist? Is rejection of centralised authority under that same (hostile, foreign) church and monarchy in favor of local accountability (i.e., presbyteries) leftist? Perhaps we have a semantic misunderstanding?

    Moldbug overdoes it, but there’s also a significant difference between Scottish Calvinists and English Puritans.

  157. @Art Deco
    Hunter Biden received a direct commission (under a special dispensation - he was 44 at the time) for a public affairs position. He tested positive for cocaine at the time of his first drill and was tossed out. (Lately, he's been banging his brother's widow).

    Art Deco:

    Hunter Biden is a real nefarious character. What bears investigating is his lucrative role in Ukraine where his father effectively acted as Pro Consul.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    His father was never the pro-consul in the Ukraine or anywhere else. His father's a quondam low rent suburban lawyer who excels at running electoral campaigns in small jurisdictions. He's never had any executive responsibilities. One thing people who know him say he has a natural aptitude for is the real estate business (in which he's never worked, ironically). See Brit Hume's reporting on Sen. Biden ca. 1986: his notable feature was motormouth showboating. Hunter Biden is talented at leveraging connections, and if he hasn't made himself wealthy doing that, it's because too much money went up his nose.
  158. @Art Deco
    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American

    About 17% of the professional doctorates in medicine and peri-medical occupations are awarded to Orientals and East Indians (2014 datum).

    I stand corrected.

    21% (4475/21030) of matriculants to US medical schools in 2016-2017 were Asian.

    https://www.aamc.org/download/321478/data/factstablea11.pdf

  159. @Art Deco
    Whether her family is 'highly placed' or whether that's just another factoid passed from one addled-mind to another in subcultural literature, she's been married for 50+ years to a man in the building trades, living in suburbs and exurbs of Dallas. What's in that for the MVD, KGB, CIA, or whomever else?

    I don’t think the fact that her uncle was an MVD colonel is disputed by anyone.

    Stratfor summarizes the Marina weirdness much better than I can:
    https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mystery-marina-oswald

    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off. I imagine they wanted nothing more to do with Marina, and that the feeling was mutual from her.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off.

    They replace one mainstream politicians with another mainstream politician. They get nothing. Which is why the thesis that it's a Soviet plot is not credible from the get go. The only opportunity they've ever had to improve their position through that type of personnel change was during the Roosevelt Administration.
  160. @Crawfurdmuir
    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the "light within," adheres to the Independent faction:

    "Whate'er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i' th' right.
    'Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration."

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges -

    "For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond'rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM'S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th' intelligible world, cou'd say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn'd as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown'd.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou'd do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned."

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin's apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog - I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I'd refer you to Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug.

    Ancestor hunting, eh? That’s a pleasurable activity, but it fails to take account of the fact that the leading Leftist thinkers (fellows like Marx, Foucault, Derrida, Lacan, Althusser, etc) are not descended from 17th century English Puritans.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    We began this discussion in touching on the history of the Cambridge spy ring, part of which reflected the history of Cambridge as a hotbed of leftism - first religious (i.e., extreme Protestantism), then political.

    It may indeed be that major left-wing thinkers such as those you mention did not descend in a direct line from English Puritanism. However, just as Cambridge was susceptible to the influence of religious leftism (a Continental import from Geneva and Leyden) in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, so it was susceptible to that of political leftism (another Continental import) in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Consider the "Apostles," who were simultaneously infiltrated and dominated by homosexuals and by Communists (there was, needless to say, a not insignificant overlap between the two).

    In trying to understand how Voegelinian "gnosticism" infected politics, both in Britain and in the United States, recognition of the role played by Puritanism is helpful, perhaps even necessary. Voegelin recognized in English Puritanism an early manifestation of such gnosticism, and so should we. It seems to me that we see this genealogy of ideas in the Puritanism of New England, as well.

    New England's Puritanism was but a step away from Unitarianism, and Unitarianism only a step away from transcendentalism, abolitionism, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and all the other philosophical and political chimæras that have since the mid-19th century been seized upon by those that abandoned the faith of their fathers to fill the empty place left in their hearts and minds by what they had rejected.

    Perhaps what made Puritanism vulnerable to the spiritual Schwärmerei of the Interregnum, with its Levellers, Fifth-Monarchy men, etc., and the heirs of Puritans at Cambridge in both Old and New England to a kindred political delusion, was the poverty of vision of the original Calvinism on which it was founded - a bleak and threadbare thing, not unlike what Jack made of his coat in A Tale of a Tub. How much more attractive it is not merely to cast aside "popish superstition," but in addition to supplant it with the attractive prospect of immanentizing the eschaton.

  161. @Crawfurdmuir
    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the "light within," adheres to the Independent faction:

    "Whate'er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i' th' right.
    'Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration."

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges -

    "For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond'rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM'S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th' intelligible world, cou'd say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn'd as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown'd.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou'd do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned."

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin's apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog - I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I'd refer you to Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Of course, there was also a notable scientific movement as well:Newton, Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, etc.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    Of course, there was also a notable scientific movement as well:Newton, Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, etc.
     
    You shouldn't assume that their work was entirely or even mainly scientific. Both Newton and Boyle were enthusiastic believers in transmutatory alchemy. Newton actually devoted more of his notes (at least of those that have been preserved) to alchemy than to physics or mathematics. For Newton, see B.J.T. Dobbs, The Foundations of Newton's Alchemy and The Janus Face of Genius. For Boyle, see The Aspiring Adept, by Lawrence Principe.

    While Newton's alchemical activity is better known, Boyle's is even more interesting than Newton's. Boyle's first writings were on theology. His interest in chemistry apparently began because he sought a refutation of Democritean atomism, which was at the time associated with the atheism of Epicurus and Lucretius (Redondi suggests, indeed, that Galileo's atomism was a greater source of his problems with the Roman Inquisition than his heliocentrism). Though because of his book The Sceptical Chymist Boyle is often represented as foreshadowing modern scientific chemistry, a more thorough enquiry into Boyle's other work shows him in a quite different light. In fact he was a follower of the "mercurialist" school of alchemy.

    Príncipe has identified the source of Boyle's instruction in alchemy/chemistry, previously obscure, as a Paracelsian physician named George Starkey. Starkey was born of English Puritan stock in Bermuda, and later came to New England where he studied at Harvard. Among the subjects of his study was alchemy (who knew it was the part of the curriculum?), under no less than the Puritan divine the Rev'd. Michael Wigglesworth, author of "The Day of Doom." This was a doggerel poem on the Apocalypse, focusing lengthily and morbidly on the torments of the damned, and a best seller in colonial Massachusetts. Seventeenth-century Harvard more resembled Lovecraft's Miskatonic than one might expect.

    At length Starkey moved to London where he practiced medicine without much success, but also became, under the pseudonym Eirenaeus Philalethes, the author of one of the seventeenth century's most celebrated alchemical tracts, the Introitus apertus as occlusum regis palatium. At some point he encountered Boyle and taught him what he knew. The methods he described in elaborate and allegorical language in his book, he described to Boyle in more straightforward terms, and Principe has duplicated them in modern laboratory conditions. They are not, of course, truly transmutatory, but reflect phenomena that are still curious today, such as the apparent growth of a "tree" of metallic gold crystals, or the preparation of a liquid amalgam of mercury, copper, and antimony that evolves heat when subsequently mixed with gold.

    Boyle was a socially prominent and rich man, and as might be expected was often approached by prople who, knowing his interests, sought to swindle him. Few of these attempts appear to have been successful, but he did pursue a long correspondence with a Frenchman, a M. de Saingermain (!), who claimed to represent a secret alchemical society called the Asterism. The exchange ended inconclusively after the supposed destruction of the society's chateau. It is likely that the complete history of this episode will never be recovered.

    I know less about Hooke, but can tell you that he had studied the supposed spirit communications in "Enochian" recorded by Dr. John Dee and his scryer "Sir" Edward Kelley, and was convinced that they were some sort of code. Here is material, perhaps, for Dan Brown's next novel.

    So, there is occult intrigue around all of these 17th century figures, and they cannot be regarded as anything resembling pure scientists in the modern sense.
  162. @Crawfurdmuir
    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the "light within," adheres to the Independent faction:

    "Whate'er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i' th' right.
    'Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration."

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges -

    "For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond'rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM'S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th' intelligible world, cou'd say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn'd as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown'd.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou'd do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned."

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin's apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog - I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I'd refer you to Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.

    . There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    Of course, Anne Hutchinson’s doctrines were deeply antinomian and a threat to civil society.

  163. @Autochthon

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.
     
    I've never read word one written by this Moldbug character so many here go on about, but I'm fascinated to understand how you figure Scots presbyterians were (or are, given that the diaspora in America are overwhelmingly what actual leftists would dismiss as rednecks clinging to guns and religion) leftists.

    Is rejection of a debauched and profaned church established so its founding monarch could expand his opportunities for hiding sausage leftist? Is rejection of centralised authority under that same (hostile, foreign) church and monarchy in favor of local accountability (i.e., presbyteries) leftist? Perhaps we have a semantic misunderstanding?

    I’ve never read word one written by this Moldbug character

    Don’t bother. I sampled his wares a while back. He’s a very tedious fellow, dilating at length on a point that can be summarized in a single sentence: Leftism exists because of 17th century Puritans. Of course, when you distill it down to its purest essence, the idiocy becomes a tad too apparent. Hence the need for all the verbiage.

  164. @syonredux

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug.
     
    Ancestor hunting, eh? That's a pleasurable activity, but it fails to take account of the fact that the leading Leftist thinkers (fellows like Marx, Foucault, Derrida, Lacan, Althusser, etc) are not descended from 17th century English Puritans.

    We began this discussion in touching on the history of the Cambridge spy ring, part of which reflected the history of Cambridge as a hotbed of leftism – first religious (i.e., extreme Protestantism), then political.

    It may indeed be that major left-wing thinkers such as those you mention did not descend in a direct line from English Puritanism. However, just as Cambridge was susceptible to the influence of religious leftism (a Continental import from Geneva and Leyden) in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, so it was susceptible to that of political leftism (another Continental import) in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Consider the “Apostles,” who were simultaneously infiltrated and dominated by homosexuals and by Communists (there was, needless to say, a not insignificant overlap between the two).

    In trying to understand how Voegelinian “gnosticism” infected politics, both in Britain and in the United States, recognition of the role played by Puritanism is helpful, perhaps even necessary. Voegelin recognized in English Puritanism an early manifestation of such gnosticism, and so should we. It seems to me that we see this genealogy of ideas in the Puritanism of New England, as well.

    New England’s Puritanism was but a step away from Unitarianism, and Unitarianism only a step away from transcendentalism, abolitionism, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and all the other philosophical and political chimæras that have since the mid-19th century been seized upon by those that abandoned the faith of their fathers to fill the empty place left in their hearts and minds by what they had rejected.

    Perhaps what made Puritanism vulnerable to the spiritual Schwärmerei of the Interregnum, with its Levellers, Fifth-Monarchy men, etc., and the heirs of Puritans at Cambridge in both Old and New England to a kindred political delusion, was the poverty of vision of the original Calvinism on which it was founded – a bleak and threadbare thing, not unlike what Jack made of his coat in A Tale of a Tub. How much more attractive it is not merely to cast aside “popish superstition,” but in addition to supplant it with the attractive prospect of immanentizing the eschaton.

  165. @Autochthon

    Strangely, Moldbug kool-aid drinkers don’t claim Scottish Calvinist Presbyterians were proto-leftists.
     
    I've never read word one written by this Moldbug character so many here go on about, but I'm fascinated to understand how you figure Scots presbyterians were (or are, given that the diaspora in America are overwhelmingly what actual leftists would dismiss as rednecks clinging to guns and religion) leftists.

    Is rejection of a debauched and profaned church established so its founding monarch could expand his opportunities for hiding sausage leftist? Is rejection of centralised authority under that same (hostile, foreign) church and monarchy in favor of local accountability (i.e., presbyteries) leftist? Perhaps we have a semantic misunderstanding?

    I was being sarcastic. The Scots Presbyterians were not leftists; neither were their counterparts in England. You are entirely correct about their motives.

    My point was that certain dishonest, and unfortunately influential commentators (like Moldbug) focus on “calvinism” and “puritanism” in England (and blame it for modern leftism) while ignoring the same “puritanism” in Scotland.

    Moldbug’s whole thesis starts to unravel if you start asking things like “Why did the Scots rebel against Charles I in the 1630s” or “Why did John Knox think it was wrong to have a woman as the leader of your nation?”

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    the same “puritanism” in Scotland
     
    It wasn't the same. Nor was the Scottish Enlightenment the same as the continental version.
    , @Autochthon
    Ah. Now I understand your points entirely. I am terrible at gauging sarcasm (and tone more generally) in this medium; even more so than its inherent limitations dictate.

    All the secondhand stuff I learn about the Moldbug dude makes me think he's an overwrought idealogue, and I am generally a great hater of ists and isms. I'm fanatic about preserving my the bloodlines of my people and their lands, but the posturing and navel-gazing that distract from those goals I find increasingly tiresome. The pagans and the Christians, the conservatives and the libertarians, etc.—they all want to argue minutiae as the lines fail.

    Reagan once famously spoke of how an extraterrestrial invasion would motivate humans to put aside their differences and unite to preseve themselves. I wish I knew what in Hell would similarly motivate Europeans, because external invaders, explicitly voicing their intentions to destroy us, isn't doing the trick, so I suppose Reagan's hypothesis was wrong. I look upon the disunity of the Amerindians as they were defeated, and I am appalled we have learned nothing from it.
    , @Crawfurdmuir
    Puritanism was an English movement that arose by the 1570s among those who felt that the Church of England was not sufficiently reformed; they wished to "purify" (Calvinise) it, hence the name. They began by objecting to the liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, which they thought still too like the "popish" Mass; they then objected to vestments, and to instrumental music, and to ornaments like stained glass windows, on the same grounds. This led to objections to the hierarchy that defended them (particularly bishops), and to the secular authorities that protected the hierarchy, all the way up to the king. They objected to Christmas (the "war on Christmas" pursued by the secular left had its origins in seventeenth-century Puritanism), to sports on Sunday afternoon, to Maypole dancing, and to stage plays (this in the age of Shakespeare and Jonson). They thought public floggings and hangings more morally edifying. Ultimately, to achieve their utopian vision they overthrew the established government and became regicides.

    Such political Puritanism never existed in Scotland because there never was a quasi-Lutheran reformation there akin to that of the Church of England. The Scots went straight from Catholicism to Presbyterianism, and only resisted their monarch when he sought to impose an Anglican polity in Scotland. It's also to be noted that the Covenanters, while they rejected episcopacy and the set liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, never repudiated their king as the English Puritans did. Charles II was crowned in Scotland a decade before he was restored in England, and old Covenanters like Sir Robert Moray were Royalists in opposition to Cromwell and his Parliament.
  166. @Millennial
    I was being sarcastic. The Scots Presbyterians were not leftists; neither were their counterparts in England. You are entirely correct about their motives.

    My point was that certain dishonest, and unfortunately influential commentators (like Moldbug) focus on "calvinism" and "puritanism" in England (and blame it for modern leftism) while ignoring the same "puritanism" in Scotland.

    Moldbug's whole thesis starts to unravel if you start asking things like "Why did the Scots rebel against Charles I in the 1630s" or "Why did John Knox think it was wrong to have a woman as the leader of your nation?"

    the same “puritanism” in Scotland

    It wasn’t the same. Nor was the Scottish Enlightenment the same as the continental version.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  167. @Millennial
    I was being sarcastic. The Scots Presbyterians were not leftists; neither were their counterparts in England. You are entirely correct about their motives.

    My point was that certain dishonest, and unfortunately influential commentators (like Moldbug) focus on "calvinism" and "puritanism" in England (and blame it for modern leftism) while ignoring the same "puritanism" in Scotland.

    Moldbug's whole thesis starts to unravel if you start asking things like "Why did the Scots rebel against Charles I in the 1630s" or "Why did John Knox think it was wrong to have a woman as the leader of your nation?"

    Ah. Now I understand your points entirely. I am terrible at gauging sarcasm (and tone more generally) in this medium; even more so than its inherent limitations dictate.

    All the secondhand stuff I learn about the Moldbug dude makes me think he’s an overwrought idealogue, and I am generally a great hater of ists and isms. I’m fanatic about preserving my the bloodlines of my people and their lands, but the posturing and navel-gazing that distract from those goals I find increasingly tiresome. The pagans and the Christians, the conservatives and the libertarians, etc.—they all want to argue minutiae as the lines fail.

    Reagan once famously spoke of how an extraterrestrial invasion would motivate humans to put aside their differences and unite to preseve themselves. I wish I knew what in Hell would similarly motivate Europeans, because external invaders, explicitly voicing their intentions to destroy us, isn’t doing the trick, so I suppose Reagan’s hypothesis was wrong. I look upon the disunity of the Amerindians as they were defeated, and I am appalled we have learned nothing from it.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    he’s an overwrought idealogue
     
    No, he's a missionary to the Progressives.
  168. @Hodag
    I know a few CIA/secret service types and they were recruited from Roman Catholic liberal arts schools with some rigor. None are actual Opus Dei but some of the secret society stuff. Also some Big Ten Catholics.

    I’m a Big Twelve Catholic, except, in my day, it was the Big Eight: CO, NE, KS. KS State, OK, OK State, MO, and IA State (my alma mater.)

  169. In any good spy novel, the doctor’s daughter would have turned out to have been Tamerlan’s CIA handler, or maybe working for some other spy agency.

  170. @syonredux

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.
     
    Of course, there was also a notable scientific movement as well:Newton, Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, etc.

    Of course, there was also a notable scientific movement as well:Newton, Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, etc.

    You shouldn’t assume that their work was entirely or even mainly scientific. Both Newton and Boyle were enthusiastic believers in transmutatory alchemy. Newton actually devoted more of his notes (at least of those that have been preserved) to alchemy than to physics or mathematics. For Newton, see B.J.T. Dobbs, The Foundations of Newton’s Alchemy and The Janus Face of Genius. For Boyle, see The Aspiring Adept, by Lawrence Principe.

    While Newton’s alchemical activity is better known, Boyle’s is even more interesting than Newton’s. Boyle’s first writings were on theology. His interest in chemistry apparently began because he sought a refutation of Democritean atomism, which was at the time associated with the atheism of Epicurus and Lucretius (Redondi suggests, indeed, that Galileo’s atomism was a greater source of his problems with the Roman Inquisition than his heliocentrism). Though because of his book The Sceptical Chymist Boyle is often represented as foreshadowing modern scientific chemistry, a more thorough enquiry into Boyle’s other work shows him in a quite different light. In fact he was a follower of the “mercurialist” school of alchemy.

    Príncipe has identified the source of Boyle’s instruction in alchemy/chemistry, previously obscure, as a Paracelsian physician named George Starkey. Starkey was born of English Puritan stock in Bermuda, and later came to New England where he studied at Harvard. Among the subjects of his study was alchemy (who knew it was the part of the curriculum?), under no less than the Puritan divine the Rev’d. Michael Wigglesworth, author of “The Day of Doom.” This was a doggerel poem on the Apocalypse, focusing lengthily and morbidly on the torments of the damned, and a best seller in colonial Massachusetts. Seventeenth-century Harvard more resembled Lovecraft’s Miskatonic than one might expect.

    At length Starkey moved to London where he practiced medicine without much success, but also became, under the pseudonym Eirenaeus Philalethes, the author of one of the seventeenth century’s most celebrated alchemical tracts, the Introitus apertus as occlusum regis palatium. At some point he encountered Boyle and taught him what he knew. The methods he described in elaborate and allegorical language in his book, he described to Boyle in more straightforward terms, and Principe has duplicated them in modern laboratory conditions. They are not, of course, truly transmutatory, but reflect phenomena that are still curious today, such as the apparent growth of a “tree” of metallic gold crystals, or the preparation of a liquid amalgam of mercury, copper, and antimony that evolves heat when subsequently mixed with gold.

    Boyle was a socially prominent and rich man, and as might be expected was often approached by prople who, knowing his interests, sought to swindle him. Few of these attempts appear to have been successful, but he did pursue a long correspondence with a Frenchman, a M. de Saingermain (!), who claimed to represent a secret alchemical society called the Asterism. The exchange ended inconclusively after the supposed destruction of the society’s chateau. It is likely that the complete history of this episode will never be recovered.

    I know less about Hooke, but can tell you that he had studied the supposed spirit communications in “Enochian” recorded by Dr. John Dee and his scryer “Sir” Edward Kelley, and was convinced that they were some sort of code. Here is material, perhaps, for Dan Brown’s next novel.

    So, there is occult intrigue around all of these 17th century figures, and they cannot be regarded as anything resembling pure scientists in the modern sense.

  171. @Anon
    Are Yale secret societies similar to Harvard Final Clubs?

    Or Priceton eating clubs? (Which I heard began when fraternities at Princeton were abolished, I think by Woodrow Wilson.

  172. @Anonymous
    "That’s kind of weird."

    No it's not. You see it everyday in shopping malls and parks throughout the U.S., perfectly fine white girls (or, often their parents) lugging around some mulatto (or other mixed) child. This Chechen met the Russell girl in a bar (according to her friends) and she succumbed to his brutal charms, even married him and converted to Islam. That part is unusual, the marriage thing. I see a lot about all this I don't like--grandfather Russell must be rolling in his grave--but it's hardly rare or "weird".

    This is a cigar you're looking at Sailer.

    What is it about Islamic terrorists and bars, strip clubs, etc.?

    • Replies: @Njguy73

    What is it about Islamic terrorists and bars, strip clubs, etc.?
     
    Spend your first 18 years in a country where booze is forbidden and women have to be covered up 24/7. Then we'll talk.
  173. @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    Donovan was an Ivy Leaguer (Columbia.) He mentored liberal Kennedy acolyte William Van den Heuvel, father of radical Katrina, owner of a controlling interest in The Nation.

  174. @Millennial
    I was being sarcastic. The Scots Presbyterians were not leftists; neither were their counterparts in England. You are entirely correct about their motives.

    My point was that certain dishonest, and unfortunately influential commentators (like Moldbug) focus on "calvinism" and "puritanism" in England (and blame it for modern leftism) while ignoring the same "puritanism" in Scotland.

    Moldbug's whole thesis starts to unravel if you start asking things like "Why did the Scots rebel against Charles I in the 1630s" or "Why did John Knox think it was wrong to have a woman as the leader of your nation?"

    Puritanism was an English movement that arose by the 1570s among those who felt that the Church of England was not sufficiently reformed; they wished to “purify” (Calvinise) it, hence the name. They began by objecting to the liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, which they thought still too like the “popish” Mass; they then objected to vestments, and to instrumental music, and to ornaments like stained glass windows, on the same grounds. This led to objections to the hierarchy that defended them (particularly bishops), and to the secular authorities that protected the hierarchy, all the way up to the king. They objected to Christmas (the “war on Christmas” pursued by the secular left had its origins in seventeenth-century Puritanism), to sports on Sunday afternoon, to Maypole dancing, and to stage plays (this in the age of Shakespeare and Jonson). They thought public floggings and hangings more morally edifying. Ultimately, to achieve their utopian vision they overthrew the established government and became regicides.

    Such political Puritanism never existed in Scotland because there never was a quasi-Lutheran reformation there akin to that of the Church of England. The Scots went straight from Catholicism to Presbyterianism, and only resisted their monarch when he sought to impose an Anglican polity in Scotland. It’s also to be noted that the Covenanters, while they rejected episcopacy and the set liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, never repudiated their king as the English Puritans did. Charles II was crowned in Scotland a decade before he was restored in England, and old Covenanters like Sir Robert Moray were Royalists in opposition to Cromwell and his Parliament.

    • Replies: @Millennial
    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scots_Holding_Their_Young_King's_Nose_To_the_Grindstone.jpg

    "Jockie" (a Scottish soldier) and a Presbyterian minister "crown" Charles II. See: the Engagers.

    Yes, the Scots went straight from Popery to Presbyterianism. In other words, the puritan (anti-papist) movement was totally successful there.

    King James I considered the English puritans to be clones of the Presbyterians he thought he had left behind. "No bishop, no king."

    They objected to decadent, libertine Christmas celebrations, not the holiday itself.

    "Stage plays..."
    Yes, they had a problem with the Hollywood of their time... and this in an age when boys were groomed to play female parts...

    "Public hangings..."
    So did the whole rest of the world...

    Also, I just remembered, the very term "Whig" (another word that Moldbug types like to throw around) originated in..........Scotland!
  175. @Jack D
    Can you stop with the "what would Jesus do" stuff? It's tiresome. Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus? Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don't? What is the point?

    It's abundantly clear from the last 2,000 years of history that aside from a handful of saints, few if any people actually model their lives on that of Jesus or that it would actually be a good idea if they really did. Jesus pissed off the authorities and ended up nailed to a cross at 33, so unless that is your goal in life, he might not be the best role model.

    I like your first paragraph. The second not so much. I would agree that someone who somehow believes that he will be just like Jesus is at best a fool, and at worst (Oliver Cromwell, John Brown) a lunatic. The better question is not “What would Jesus do?” but “What would Jesus have me do?”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_of_Christ
  176. @Crawfurdmuir
    In Hudibras, the eponymous protagonist is a member of the Presbyterian faction; however, his squire Ralpho, a follower of the "light within," adheres to the Independent faction:

    "Whate'er men speak by this New Light,
    Still they are sure to be i' th' right.
    'Tis a dark-lanthorn of the Spirit,
    Which none see by but those that bear it:
    A light that falls down from on high,
    For spiritual trades to cozen by
    An Ignis Fatuus, that bewitches
    And leads men into pools and ditches,
    To make them dip themselves, and sound
    For Christendom in dirty pond
    To dive like wild-fowl for salvation,
    And fish to catch regeneration."

    In Ralpho the antique as well as the Voegelinian gnostic emerges -

    "For MYSTICK LEARNING, wond'rous able
    In magick Talisman and Cabal,
    Whose primitive tradition reaches
    As far as ADAM'S first green breeches:
    Deep-sighted in intelligences,
    Ideas, atoms, influences;
    And much of Terra Incognita,
    Th' intelligible world, cou'd say:
    A deep OCCULT PHILOSOPHER,
    As learn'd as the wild Irish are,
    Or Sir AGRIPPA; for profound
    And solid lying much renown'd.
    He ANTHROPOSOPHUS, and FLOUD,
    And JACOB BEHMEN understood:
    Knew many an amulet and charm,
    That wou'd do neither good nor harm:
    In ROSY-CRUCIAN lore as learned,
    As he that Vere adeptus earned."

    This alludes to the occult revival, immediately before and during the Interregnum, amongst the religiously heterodox. Another gnostic is the character Sidrophel, who appears later in the poem, and is a caricature of William Lilly, the Puritan astrologer and almanac-maker.

    Revolutionary ideology and spiritual phantasmagoria go hand in hand. We see this also leading up to the French Revolution, in the rise of such figures as Cagliostro, Mesmer, the Comte de St.-Germain, etc.; and even leading up to the Russian Revolution, e.g., with Encaussé. Did you know that Stalin's apologist Walter Duranty was an intimate of Aleister Crowley?

    Hudibras is clearly a satire on all Puritans, not just Presbyterians; and the Presbyterians satirized in it are not Scottish ones, but the English faction that sought (but never succeeded) in establishing a Presbyterian system in England. There was a similar effort to do so in New England. It was through supra-congregational bodies of Puritan clergy, of a pattern similar to those found in Scottish Presbyterianism, that Calvinist orthodoxy was enforced, leading to the expulsion from Massachusetts of dissentients like Roger Williams or Anne Hutchinson, and even by the hangings of Quakers in Boston Common.

    By the way, I read the poem well before Moldbug did, and quoted it in his comment sections, I think before he mentioned it in one of his blog posts. Voegelin, Santayana, and others likewise observed the connections of Puritanism to modern leftism long before Moldbug. You should not assume that I became aware of this through his blog - I first studied the history of the English Civil War more than forty years ago.

    While Hudibras is not about Scots Presbyterians, for them I'd refer you to Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner. The protagonist Wringhim is a fanatical Presbyterian, convinced of his own status as one of the Elect, and therefore willing to transgress all sorts of rules applicable to lesser mortals. Both an antinomian and a psychopath, his attitude is not unlike that of many a modern leftist.

    “Refer you to Hogg’s…”

    Another episode of the 17th century Colbert Report.

    Santayana, really? More fiction?

    Back in the real world, why should an Englishman bow to a Scottish king and his French wife?

    Why should an Englishman obey Rome on matters of religion?

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    Santayana was a philosopher, not a writer of novels. His strictures on the New England Puritans and their heirs (as well as those of Eric Voegelin and M. E. Bradford to similar effect) are weighty criticisms based in historical and philosophical scholarship.

    Hogg's novel was written in the nineteenth, not the seventeenth century. I am not sure I would describe it as akin to the Colbert report. Serious insights into history can often be found in literature.

    Why should an Englishman bow to a Scottish king and his French wife? Assuming he believed in the English constitution, because that king was the legitimate successor to the throne and had been anointed and crowned as such.

    Why should an Englishman obey Rome in matters of religion? That is, insofar as the English Civil War is concerned, an irrelevant question. The Church of Rome had no authority in England at the time and was indeed subject to legal proscription both under Charles I and later under Cromwell. The conflict was between two species of Protestantism, one having a quasi-Lutheran polity and an Arminian theology (i.e., the Church of England), the other seeking either a Presbyterian or a Congregational polity and a Calvinist-"gnostic" theology (i.e., the principal strains of English Puritanism).

    Puritans liked to accuse Anglicans of "popery," which was the seventeenth century equivalent of today's Democrat politicians and MSNBC news readers accusing Donald Trump of "fascism." The former accusation was as lacking in truth as the latter is.
  177. @Old Palo Altan
    Quite correct about the British upper class. On the other hand it is to a degree a matter of choice. I know Old Etonians now in their 50s who affect a semi-Cockney voice which must have driven their parents crazy - just as the children of these pathetic flower children are now horrifying their parents by returning to "mega posh" accents. In my experience it is the country gents and their wives, people for whom a trip to London is a vexing break in their routine, who sound the most authentically old-fashioned, and I mean people in their thirties.
    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation. Thier wives were often even grander in style: I once read a newspaper account of an interview with Joseph Clark Grew (also Groton and Harvard). The interviewer commented that his accent, although unusual, was recognizably American, but that of his wife was offensively "foreign". She was a as American as her husband, and a grandchild of Oliver Hazard Perry.
    Anyway, Bertrand Russell will give you the accent of the top class of his generation: Keynes was upper middle.

    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation.

    Perhaps two or perhaps more generations.

    If you listen to the American Presidents at the links below,

    Grover Cleveland (b. 1837) and William McKinley (b. 1843) have that vaguely mid-Atlantic accent of which Buckley’s was perhaps a something of a caricature. Teddy Roosevelt (b. 1858) has only a hint of it.

    Benjamin Harrison (b. 1833) has a recognizably Midwestern, neutral, accent, and William Howard Taft’s (b. 1857) accent wouldn’t be out of place today. Both were born in Ohio.

    http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2015/11/03/roosevelt-taft-wilson-sounded-like/

    http://vvl.lib.msu.edu/

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Thank you indeed: very instructive in more ways than one.
    But these don't disprove my point, which was not about presidential or old-fashioned accents in general, but was about upper-class accents of the period 1880-1920. The thing to do would be to listen to FDR and then his children. They sound much more like us than like their father.
    The same can not be said of, say, the children of Bertrand Russell (the Earl Russell, let us not forget).
    Why it happened (World War II perhaps?) I leave to others to discuss.
  178. @Old Palo Altan
    Quite correct about the British upper class. On the other hand it is to a degree a matter of choice. I know Old Etonians now in their 50s who affect a semi-Cockney voice which must have driven their parents crazy - just as the children of these pathetic flower children are now horrifying their parents by returning to "mega posh" accents. In my experience it is the country gents and their wives, people for whom a trip to London is a vexing break in their routine, who sound the most authentically old-fashioned, and I mean people in their thirties.
    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation. Thier wives were often even grander in style: I once read a newspaper account of an interview with Joseph Clark Grew (also Groton and Harvard). The interviewer commented that his accent, although unusual, was recognizably American, but that of his wife was offensively "foreign". She was a as American as her husband, and a grandchild of Oliver Hazard Perry.
    Anyway, Bertrand Russell will give you the accent of the top class of his generation: Keynes was upper middle.

    Here are Joseph Clark Grew (in 1927) and Bertrand Russell (in 1932).

  179. @Millennial
    "Refer you to Hogg's..."

    Another episode of the 17th century Colbert Report.

    Santayana, really? More fiction?

    Back in the real world, why should an Englishman bow to a Scottish king and his French wife?

    Why should an Englishman obey Rome on matters of religion?

    Santayana was a philosopher, not a writer of novels. His strictures on the New England Puritans and their heirs (as well as those of Eric Voegelin and M. E. Bradford to similar effect) are weighty criticisms based in historical and philosophical scholarship.

    Hogg’s novel was written in the nineteenth, not the seventeenth century. I am not sure I would describe it as akin to the Colbert report. Serious insights into history can often be found in literature.

    Why should an Englishman bow to a Scottish king and his French wife? Assuming he believed in the English constitution, because that king was the legitimate successor to the throne and had been anointed and crowned as such.

    Why should an Englishman obey Rome in matters of religion? That is, insofar as the English Civil War is concerned, an irrelevant question. The Church of Rome had no authority in England at the time and was indeed subject to legal proscription both under Charles I and later under Cromwell. The conflict was between two species of Protestantism, one having a quasi-Lutheran polity and an Arminian theology (i.e., the Church of England), the other seeking either a Presbyterian or a Congregational polity and a Calvinist-“gnostic” theology (i.e., the principal strains of English Puritanism).

    Puritans liked to accuse Anglicans of “popery,” which was the seventeenth century equivalent of today’s Democrat politicians and MSNBC news readers accusing Donald Trump of “fascism.” The former accusation was as lacking in truth as the latter is.

  180. @Jack D
    The number of Chechens in the US is mercifully small so not that many UC white girls dig them specifically but it's not uncommon for UC white girls to dig some alpha brown guy who does NOT remind them of their father (bonus points if it pisses off said father) , though more commonly they choose Negroes like Obama's mom or Latinos, just because they are much more common. Usually said brown guy takes off one way or another and said white girl is left with brownish bab(ies).

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not at all brown skinned but he was "swarthy" like a southern Italian or a Greek - the kind of guy who has a 5 o'clock shadow at 10am.

    This post is bizarre.

    Upper class white girls tend to dig guys that dress preppy and look like Abercrombie and Fitch models. There are girls that go for black hip hop types, but they’re just a small percentage.

    Never heard of white girls who preferred “brown” guys.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I said it was "not uncommon", not that it was the norm. Of course most upper class white girls prefer men from their own social class (or preferably a little better - women love to marry up) but there is a certain % that loves to go slumming, as you say with hip-hop artists or Chechens or other rough trade. I don't know what the % is but it's far from unheard of. Young girls tend to be especially vulnerable - Obama's mom was 17 when she was impregnated.

    The recent London terrorist was the product of such a teen mother.
  181. @Art Deco
    Thirty percent of medical students are Asian-American

    About 17% of the professional doctorates in medicine and peri-medical occupations are awarded to Orientals and East Indians (2014 datum).

    You’re not including foreign-medical graduates that do residencies in America or U.S. doctors that studied in the Carribean. Both groups are disproprortionately Asian Indian.

    Your stats are just for U.S. medical schools, not residencies.

  182. @Art Deco
    Hunter Biden received a direct commission (under a special dispensation - he was 44 at the time) for a public affairs position. He tested positive for cocaine at the time of his first drill and was tossed out. (Lately, he's been banging his brother's widow).

    Amazing.

    http://pagesix.com/2017/03/01/widow-of-joe-bidens-deceased-son-having-affair-with-brother-in-law-hunter/

    Hunter Biden left his wife for his late brother’s widow.

    After Hunter Biden started an affair with his dead brother’s widow, maybe Hunter’s wife caught him and ended their marriage.

  183. @inertial
    Dallas night have been prosperous but Oswald went back to being a loser who couldn't keep a job. If Marina were really a daughter of nomenklatura her standard of living had likely declined.

    If Oswald was such a “loser,” how did he have connections to so many powerful individuals within our Deep State?

    Oswald was a CIA agent. Perhaps the Russians knew this, so they persuaded Marina to marry him and extract secrets.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    He had no connections, except in the imagination of votaries of a certain sort of literature, who pass factoids one-to-another. The sophisticated adherents to the conspiracy hypothesis (Josiah Thompson, Cyril Wecht) stay away from this tripe.
  184. @Crawfurdmuir
    Puritanism was an English movement that arose by the 1570s among those who felt that the Church of England was not sufficiently reformed; they wished to "purify" (Calvinise) it, hence the name. They began by objecting to the liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, which they thought still too like the "popish" Mass; they then objected to vestments, and to instrumental music, and to ornaments like stained glass windows, on the same grounds. This led to objections to the hierarchy that defended them (particularly bishops), and to the secular authorities that protected the hierarchy, all the way up to the king. They objected to Christmas (the "war on Christmas" pursued by the secular left had its origins in seventeenth-century Puritanism), to sports on Sunday afternoon, to Maypole dancing, and to stage plays (this in the age of Shakespeare and Jonson). They thought public floggings and hangings more morally edifying. Ultimately, to achieve their utopian vision they overthrew the established government and became regicides.

    Such political Puritanism never existed in Scotland because there never was a quasi-Lutheran reformation there akin to that of the Church of England. The Scots went straight from Catholicism to Presbyterianism, and only resisted their monarch when he sought to impose an Anglican polity in Scotland. It's also to be noted that the Covenanters, while they rejected episcopacy and the set liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, never repudiated their king as the English Puritans did. Charles II was crowned in Scotland a decade before he was restored in England, and old Covenanters like Sir Robert Moray were Royalists in opposition to Cromwell and his Parliament.

    “Jockie” (a Scottish soldier) and a Presbyterian minister “crown” Charles II. See: the Engagers.

    Yes, the Scots went straight from Popery to Presbyterianism. In other words, the puritan (anti-papist) movement was totally successful there.

    King James I considered the English puritans to be clones of the Presbyterians he thought he had left behind. “No bishop, no king.”

    They objected to decadent, libertine Christmas celebrations, not the holiday itself.

    “Stage plays…”
    Yes, they had a problem with the Hollywood of their time… and this in an age when boys were groomed to play female parts…

    “Public hangings…”
    So did the whole rest of the world…

    Also, I just remembered, the very term “Whig” (another word that Moldbug types like to throw around) originated in……….Scotland!

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    The Puritan movement was not "anti-papist" except insofar as it used the accusation of "papism" against the Lutheran-Arminian Church of England. Catholicism had already been replaced by the latter by the time Puritanism arose in England. It was a schismatic strain that broke out amongst English reformers, and such a thing never existed in Scotland. You are confusing English Puritanism with Scottish Presbyterianism, and they are not the same.

    Christmas itself was banned, not just "decadent, libertine" celebrations of it. This was true not only in old England but in New England. It was not celebration that the Puritans hated, but the Mystery of the Incarnation, that "popish" conceit. They reserved their celebration for other events, as the old lyric reveals -

    "Command is given, we must obey, and quite forget old Christmas day:
    Kill a thousand men, or a Town regain, we will give thanks and praise amain.
    The wine pot shall clinke, we will feast and drinke.
    And then strange motions will abound.
    Yet let's be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn'd upside down.
    (...)

    "To conclude, I'le tell you news that's right, Christmas was kil'd at Naseby fight:
    Charity was slain at that same time, Jack Tell troth too, a friend of mine,
    Likewise then did die, rost beef and shred pie,
    Pig, Goose and Capon no quarter found.
    Yet let's be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn'd upside down."

    The terms Whig and Tory were both originally used in a contemptuous sense. A Whig, short for whiggamore, was a Scottish border reiver; a Tory was an Irish highway robber. Note here the typical regard displayed by the English for the Scots and the Irish! In any event from the point of view of this discussion it should be noted that neither was in use at the time of the English Civil War. They referred to factions that after the Restoration of Charles II, respectively opposed and supported the succession to the throne of the Duke of York (later James II and VII).

  185. @Twinkie

    Chicks dig Chechens. Or more accurately, even or ESPECIALLY upper class White girls cannot get enough of stone cold killers. If you want to understand why we have Muslim mass immigration, you need look no further than the tingles of Upper Class Nice White Ladies and Girls.
     
    You don't know any real "upper class White girls," judging from this nonsense. Most of them don't even know what a Chechen is, let alone hanker for one.

    They don’t need to know–they yearn for what’s noble and savage, and they know it as soon as they see it. May be you live in a conservative small town in the US, good for you, it’s different in big Western cities. While women are more ‘racist’ regarding mating choices there’s a fascination with exotic bad boys, though most don’t go with their urges, being wiser than that in their real lives. It’s different when it goes to expressing these urges politically, though.

    I’ve met several educated posh white women with a penchant for brown guys from the exotic huddled masses. One was a psychology major who fell for one of our German Turk migrants, a violent small town criminal with some charm. He broke her nose once and crippled an adversary with a sucker punch in her presence, the guy being paraplegic ever since. Yet she has fondest memories, what with him being tough on the outside but vulnerable on the inside and else poor and misunderstood. I value your comments but sometimes you haven’t got a clue. It’s a mere preference, of course, most women know better, but I guess you know how funny even small preferences can turn out statistically, and they’re not so small. I live in Berlin Kreuzberg, Berlin’s prog/migrant diversitopia, where many posh folks dwell for a period of exquisite elegant slumming, and may be 1 in 100 women is sane.

    > You don’t know any real “upper class White girls,” …
    > Most of them don’t even know what a Chechen is

    We’ve different standards then. At least over here, if you don’t know what eg a Chechen is, you’re being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class. Which is a bit unfair, because even our tabloids report on Chechen crime and terror by now…

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    We’ve different standards then. At least over here, if you don’t know what eg a Chechen is, you’re being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class.
     
    1. Here in the U.S. we do not have many Chechens. It would be unkind, to say the least, to categorize people who have little familiarity with a miniscule minority in the country as "idiots."

    2. Also, in the U.S. dating and marriage are highly assortative cognitively/social status-wise. My wife and I are multiple Ivy League alums, and our alumni magazines are full of class notes of those who married graduates of other Ivy or top-tier universities. This phenomenon should be obvious to those who read Charles Murray's book or the marriage announcement section of the New York Times.

    I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that a vast majority of upper crust young white women in the U.S. are not hankering for a Chechen or "brown guys from the exotic huddled masses," unless of course these brown guys are Ivy League graduates or physicians or hedge fund managers. If you don't believe me, take a trip to, say, the Newport Yacht Club the next time you are in the U.S. Or visit Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard or Block Island, and count how many brown men you see with upper crust white women.

    I value your comments but sometimes you haven’t got a clue.
     
    3. You are reading someone who a) interviewed several Chechens... of the actual Jihadi variety, and b) married into a very posh Midwestern white family, the kind of a family that once ran everything in their city and the surrounding areas - local government, university, bank, law firm, newspaper, various highrise office buildings, farms, etc. My in-laws are upper crust whites with the capital U, and all the women in the family are married to whites, except two who are married to East Asians (both Ivy Leaguers).
  186. @Hibernian
    What is it about Islamic terrorists and bars, strip clubs, etc.?

    What is it about Islamic terrorists and bars, strip clubs, etc.?

    Spend your first 18 years in a country where booze is forbidden and women have to be covered up 24/7. Then we’ll talk.

  187. @JohnnyWalker123
    If Oswald was such a "loser," how did he have connections to so many powerful individuals within our Deep State?

    Oswald was a CIA agent. Perhaps the Russians knew this, so they persuaded Marina to marry him and extract secrets.

    He had no connections, except in the imagination of votaries of a certain sort of literature, who pass factoids one-to-another. The sophisticated adherents to the conspiracy hypothesis (Josiah Thompson, Cyril Wecht) stay away from this tripe.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Oswald had connections to George DeMohrenschildt (who was assassinated by the FBI), David Athlee Phillips, and even Jack Ruby.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvdS-1dcVxw

    Watch the video. Reporter Bill O'Reilly covered this.

    Also, Judge Garrison (who discovered the CIA-driven assassination plot) had his investigation infiltrated by govt agents.
  188. @oddsbodkins
    I don't think the fact that her uncle was an MVD colonel is disputed by anyone.

    Stratfor summarizes the Marina weirdness much better than I can:
    https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mystery-marina-oswald

    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off. I imagine they wanted nothing more to do with Marina, and that the feeling was mutual from her.

    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off.

    They replace one mainstream politicians with another mainstream politician. They get nothing. Which is why the thesis that it’s a Soviet plot is not credible from the get go. The only opportunity they’ve ever had to improve their position through that type of personnel change was during the Roosevelt Administration.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Early after the fall of Communism, the KGB invited Forrest Sawyer (?) to examine their Oswald File. It was covered with block letters saying Never Throw This Out, This Proves We Didn't Have Anything to Do with the JFK Assassination.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Oswald always had a lot of bizarre relationships to men from within the American Deep State.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns5z1BHfEvc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYbpg_aXHOc
  189. @Dan Hayes
    Art Deco:

    Hunter Biden is a real nefarious character. What bears investigating is his lucrative role in Ukraine where his father effectively acted as Pro Consul.

    His father was never the pro-consul in the Ukraine or anywhere else. His father’s a quondam low rent suburban lawyer who excels at running electoral campaigns in small jurisdictions. He’s never had any executive responsibilities. One thing people who know him say he has a natural aptitude for is the real estate business (in which he’s never worked, ironically). See Brit Hume’s reporting on Sen. Biden ca. 1986: his notable feature was motormouth showboating. Hunter Biden is talented at leveraging connections, and if he hasn’t made himself wealthy doing that, it’s because too much money went up his nose.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Art Deco:

    I agree with almost all your comments regarding Joe Biden and his family with one exception.

    Proconsul is formally defined as a high administrator in one of the empires. MacArthur is a modern example of this in his administration of Japan.

    I believe that Joe Biden exerted an inordinate (and nefarious) control of events in Ukraine from his Washington perch. Obama essentially farmed out Ukraine foreign policy to him. In turn his son has mightily profited there from his role in supporting sundry corrupt oligarchs.

    The Biden family and Victoria Nuland (of cookie dispensing fame) have been disasters both to America and Ukraine.
  190. @Hibernian
    I like your first paragraph. The second not so much. I would agree that someone who somehow believes that he will be just like Jesus is at best a fool, and at worst (Oliver Cromwell, John Brown) a lunatic. The better question is not "What would Jesus do?" but "What would Jesus have me do?"
  191. @Millennial
    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scots_Holding_Their_Young_King's_Nose_To_the_Grindstone.jpg

    "Jockie" (a Scottish soldier) and a Presbyterian minister "crown" Charles II. See: the Engagers.

    Yes, the Scots went straight from Popery to Presbyterianism. In other words, the puritan (anti-papist) movement was totally successful there.

    King James I considered the English puritans to be clones of the Presbyterians he thought he had left behind. "No bishop, no king."

    They objected to decadent, libertine Christmas celebrations, not the holiday itself.

    "Stage plays..."
    Yes, they had a problem with the Hollywood of their time... and this in an age when boys were groomed to play female parts...

    "Public hangings..."
    So did the whole rest of the world...

    Also, I just remembered, the very term "Whig" (another word that Moldbug types like to throw around) originated in..........Scotland!

    The Puritan movement was not “anti-papist” except insofar as it used the accusation of “papism” against the Lutheran-Arminian Church of England. Catholicism had already been replaced by the latter by the time Puritanism arose in England. It was a schismatic strain that broke out amongst English reformers, and such a thing never existed in Scotland. You are confusing English Puritanism with Scottish Presbyterianism, and they are not the same.

    Christmas itself was banned, not just “decadent, libertine” celebrations of it. This was true not only in old England but in New England. It was not celebration that the Puritans hated, but the Mystery of the Incarnation, that “popish” conceit. They reserved their celebration for other events, as the old lyric reveals –

    “Command is given, we must obey, and quite forget old Christmas day:
    Kill a thousand men, or a Town regain, we will give thanks and praise amain.
    The wine pot shall clinke, we will feast and drinke.
    And then strange motions will abound.
    Yet let’s be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn’d upside down.
    (…)

    “To conclude, I’le tell you news that’s right, Christmas was kil’d at Naseby fight:
    Charity was slain at that same time, Jack Tell troth too, a friend of mine,
    Likewise then did die, rost beef and shred pie,
    Pig, Goose and Capon no quarter found.
    Yet let’s be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn’d upside down.”

    The terms Whig and Tory were both originally used in a contemptuous sense. A Whig, short for whiggamore, was a Scottish border reiver; a Tory was an Irish highway robber. Note here the typical regard displayed by the English for the Scots and the Irish! In any event from the point of view of this discussion it should be noted that neither was in use at the time of the English Civil War. They referred to factions that after the Restoration of Charles II, respectively opposed and supported the succession to the throne of the Duke of York (later James II and VII).

    • Replies: @Millennial
    Yes, my point was that it's quite telling that, after the wars, the Scottish term was used for the anti-Jacobite faction, not for the pro-Jacobite faction.

    They are the same. The whole point of the Scots Presbyterians was the purging of Popery out of the national church.

    This was the English "puritan" goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline "puritans" were called Presbyterians in England.

    Once upon a time, it was common knowledge that "puritanism" was virulently anti-Catholic, and that opposition to Catholicism in England had much to do with nationalism.

    The difference was that in Scotland, the reforming agenda sailed through smoothly (this is why I said originally that Scotland was more "puritanical" than England.)

    In England, it met with opposition: hence the coining of the term "puritan" to ridicule, and the fragmentation of the "puritan" faction into Presbyterians, Independents, etc.

    It should also be noted that the term Presbyterian was used by European commentators to describe the New England colonists through the 17th century and as late as the American Revolution.

    Examples abound; here is but one:

    "This has been a Presbyterian war from the beginning as certainly as that as in 1641; and accordingly the first firing against the King's troops was from a Massachusetts meetinghouse."

    -William Jones, "An address to the British government on a subject of present concern, 1776."
  192. @Crawfurdmuir
    The Puritan movement was not "anti-papist" except insofar as it used the accusation of "papism" against the Lutheran-Arminian Church of England. Catholicism had already been replaced by the latter by the time Puritanism arose in England. It was a schismatic strain that broke out amongst English reformers, and such a thing never existed in Scotland. You are confusing English Puritanism with Scottish Presbyterianism, and they are not the same.

    Christmas itself was banned, not just "decadent, libertine" celebrations of it. This was true not only in old England but in New England. It was not celebration that the Puritans hated, but the Mystery of the Incarnation, that "popish" conceit. They reserved their celebration for other events, as the old lyric reveals -

    "Command is given, we must obey, and quite forget old Christmas day:
    Kill a thousand men, or a Town regain, we will give thanks and praise amain.
    The wine pot shall clinke, we will feast and drinke.
    And then strange motions will abound.
    Yet let's be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn'd upside down.
    (...)

    "To conclude, I'le tell you news that's right, Christmas was kil'd at Naseby fight:
    Charity was slain at that same time, Jack Tell troth too, a friend of mine,
    Likewise then did die, rost beef and shred pie,
    Pig, Goose and Capon no quarter found.
    Yet let's be content, and the times lament, you see the world turn'd upside down."

    The terms Whig and Tory were both originally used in a contemptuous sense. A Whig, short for whiggamore, was a Scottish border reiver; a Tory was an Irish highway robber. Note here the typical regard displayed by the English for the Scots and the Irish! In any event from the point of view of this discussion it should be noted that neither was in use at the time of the English Civil War. They referred to factions that after the Restoration of Charles II, respectively opposed and supported the succession to the throne of the Duke of York (later James II and VII).

    Yes, my point was that it’s quite telling that, after the wars, the Scottish term was used for the anti-Jacobite faction, not for the pro-Jacobite faction.

    They are the same. The whole point of the Scots Presbyterians was the purging of Popery out of the national church.

    This was the English “puritan” goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline “puritans” were called Presbyterians in England.

    Once upon a time, it was common knowledge that “puritanism” was virulently anti-Catholic, and that opposition to Catholicism in England had much to do with nationalism.

    The difference was that in Scotland, the reforming agenda sailed through smoothly (this is why I said originally that Scotland was more “puritanical” than England.)

    In England, it met with opposition: hence the coining of the term “puritan” to ridicule, and the fragmentation of the “puritan” faction into Presbyterians, Independents, etc.

    It should also be noted that the term Presbyterian was used by European commentators to describe the New England colonists through the 17th century and as late as the American Revolution.

    Examples abound; here is but one:

    “This has been a Presbyterian war from the beginning as certainly as that as in 1641; and accordingly the first firing against the King’s troops was from a Massachusetts meetinghouse.”

    -William Jones, “An address to the British government on a subject of present concern, 1776.”

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    This was the English “puritan” goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline “puritans” were called Presbyterians in England.
     
    Are you seriously maintaining that the Lutheran/Arminian Church of England was "popish"? It was no more so than (say) the Church of Sweden, which also retained a set liturgy, vestments, bishops, and the Apostolic Succession. The English Civil War was a squabble between two groups of Protestant sectaries, not between Protestant and Catholic. Indeed, Laud was in contact with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, and was exploring the making of common cause with reforming elements among the Greek Orthodox against the Catholics. This is why he inserted an epiklesis in the Eucharistic service of the 1637 Book of Common Prayer that was prepared for the Scottish Episcopal Church, and this epiklesis was later incorporated into the American Book of Common Prayer at the instance of the Scottish bishops that consecrated Seabury after the Revolution. It is still there.

    There was a Presbyterian faction among the English Puritans, but it did not prevail, and they remained Congregational in their polity, both in Old and in New England. There was a strong Independent faction - John Milton was one of its most notable members. The state churches in Massachusetts and Connecticut never became Presbyterian and did not ally themselves ecclesiastically with the Scottish Presbyterians that had settled themselves in New Jersey and other colonies. The quotation from Jones that you cite reflects only his inaccurate understanding. The reason, indeed, for the disestablishment of the Puritan churches in Connecticut (1818) and Massachusetts (1833), was that there was no means of enforcing Trinitarian uniformity when Unitarians gained control of some churches. Their Congregational polity made this impossible. Had there been a supra-congregational authority such as the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland it would have been possible.

    In any event, from the point of view of this discussion, the salient distinction between English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians lay in their approach to the temporal and not the ecclesiastical government. The Presbyterian Scots did not seek to cast off their duly constituted government, whereas the English Puritans did. Unlike the Scots they also sought to "reform" the state, and in doing so exhibited the same tendency towards totalitarian and utopian measures - Voegelin's "immanentizing the eschaton."

    Eventually they drifted, both in Old and in New Englsnd, from Calvinism to Socinianism or Unitarianism, to transcendentalism, abolitionism, phrenology, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and Marxism. The Cambridge spies and the modern phenomenon of "political correctness" are late manifestations of such Puritan Schwärmerei. My old friend Mel Bradford used to refer to it as "secular puritanism," which is apt both historically and psychologically.

    The same phenomenon most emphatically did not occur amongst Scots Presbyterians, nor among Presbyterians in the American South, e.g., Robert Lewis Dabney. If you maintain that there is no difference between Puritan and Presbyterian, then why did the heirs of the two traditions follow such different paths?

  193. @Autochthon
    Ah. Now I understand your points entirely. I am terrible at gauging sarcasm (and tone more generally) in this medium; even more so than its inherent limitations dictate.

    All the secondhand stuff I learn about the Moldbug dude makes me think he's an overwrought idealogue, and I am generally a great hater of ists and isms. I'm fanatic about preserving my the bloodlines of my people and their lands, but the posturing and navel-gazing that distract from those goals I find increasingly tiresome. The pagans and the Christians, the conservatives and the libertarians, etc.—they all want to argue minutiae as the lines fail.

    Reagan once famously spoke of how an extraterrestrial invasion would motivate humans to put aside their differences and unite to preseve themselves. I wish I knew what in Hell would similarly motivate Europeans, because external invaders, explicitly voicing their intentions to destroy us, isn't doing the trick, so I suppose Reagan's hypothesis was wrong. I look upon the disunity of the Amerindians as they were defeated, and I am appalled we have learned nothing from it.

    he’s an overwrought idealogue

    No, he’s a missionary to the Progressives.

  194. @Corvinus
    "You, on the other hand, are a fountain of the kind of insipid drivel one finds in conventional mainstream media."

    Project much?

    Now, I'm sure with your brood of daughters, and your own fatherly touch, you could share your words of wisdom on how you control, I mean gently influence, their conduct. We are all ears...

    “Project much?”

    Wow, so clever.

    No. I observe

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "No. I observe"

    Observe, but do not act. You are part and parcel to America's decline.
  195. @PiltdownMan

    In America it is all just gone. FDR and his contemporaries at Groton and Harvard spoke in an accent which turned out to have a life span of precisely one generation.
     
    Perhaps two or perhaps more generations.

    If you listen to the American Presidents at the links below,

    Grover Cleveland (b. 1837) and William McKinley (b. 1843) have that vaguely mid-Atlantic accent of which Buckley's was perhaps a something of a caricature. Teddy Roosevelt (b. 1858) has only a hint of it.

    Benjamin Harrison (b. 1833) has a recognizably Midwestern, neutral, accent, and William Howard Taft's (b. 1857) accent wouldn't be out of place today. Both were born in Ohio.


    http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2015/11/03/roosevelt-taft-wilson-sounded-like/

    http://vvl.lib.msu.edu/

    Thank you indeed: very instructive in more ways than one.
    But these don’t disprove my point, which was not about presidential or old-fashioned accents in general, but was about upper-class accents of the period 1880-1920. The thing to do would be to listen to FDR and then his children. They sound much more like us than like their father.
    The same can not be said of, say, the children of Bertrand Russell (the Earl Russell, let us not forget).
    Why it happened (World War II perhaps?) I leave to others to discuss.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Rabbi Boettiger sounds nothing like his great grandpa FDR:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lxpwkg3MXY
  196. Can you stop with the “what would Jesus do” stuff? It’s tiresome. Do YOU model your life on that of Jesus? Are you trying to point out that holy roller conservatives are hypocrites if they don’t? What is the point?

    He hates Christians (and defends Jews, and ignores their malfeasance, even when it’s thrown at him constantly, so do the math…). To the point of working it out in his head that every right-winger is a Christian, and then, based on that delusion, trying to shame them into his version of Christianity (i.e., leftism), a religion he hates. To the point of pulling it on Jack D, of all people. There’s a lot of bad wiring in that head.

    “Now, your usual whiny passive aggressive backbiting I can take . . . but I find your anti-Semitic disregard of brother Jack D inexcusable!”

    Jack D is Jewish? I thought Jew bashing on this fine blog was en vogue. Best check yourself, man.

    The guy’s just dumb, or maybe not all there. Yes, bashing anyone is in-bounds here. But if someone here suggested that Jews were mugging or raping people on an epic scale (Jew-bashing), or that ghetto Blacks were the brains behind globalist race-replacement agenda (Black-bashing), he’d be laughed at, or ignored as a nut. No one would agree with him.

    Or, more likely, he thinks he’s being witty, which isn’t any less dumb.

  197. @Old Palo Altan
    Thank you indeed: very instructive in more ways than one.
    But these don't disprove my point, which was not about presidential or old-fashioned accents in general, but was about upper-class accents of the period 1880-1920. The thing to do would be to listen to FDR and then his children. They sound much more like us than like their father.
    The same can not be said of, say, the children of Bertrand Russell (the Earl Russell, let us not forget).
    Why it happened (World War II perhaps?) I leave to others to discuss.

    Rabbi Boettiger sounds nothing like his great grandpa FDR:

  198. @JohnnyWalker123
    This post is bizarre.

    Upper class white girls tend to dig guys that dress preppy and look like Abercrombie and Fitch models. There are girls that go for black hip hop types, but they're just a small percentage.

    Never heard of white girls who preferred "brown" guys.

    I said it was “not uncommon”, not that it was the norm. Of course most upper class white girls prefer men from their own social class (or preferably a little better – women love to marry up) but there is a certain % that loves to go slumming, as you say with hip-hop artists or Chechens or other rough trade. I don’t know what the % is but it’s far from unheard of. Young girls tend to be especially vulnerable – Obama’s mom was 17 when she was impregnated.

    The recent London terrorist was the product of such a teen mother.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    From my experience, when upper class white girls go slumming, usually it's with a blue collar white male. Blacks are a second choice, but usually from middle class black backgrounds. When they slum it with brown/Hispanic/immigrant men or ghetto black men, typically it's because they're fat and/or unattractive.

    If a non-fat UC white girl married a working class Chechen, that'd be considered weird.

    White girls who like rougher blue collar guys still have plenty of white men who are into pickup trucks, guns, MMA, and that type of thing. In Boston, the local rough white guys probably would be Irish/Italian types that work out a lot at the gym, box a little bit, and aspire to be a firefighters or cops. If Mrs. Tsarnaev were a little brighter, she would've just married some meathead Irish youth from Southie. Parents wouldn't have been happy, but at least he'd be an American.

    Obama's mom, by the way, had a horse face.
  199. @Art Deco
    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off.

    They replace one mainstream politicians with another mainstream politician. They get nothing. Which is why the thesis that it's a Soviet plot is not credible from the get go. The only opportunity they've ever had to improve their position through that type of personnel change was during the Roosevelt Administration.

    Early after the fall of Communism, the KGB invited Forrest Sawyer (?) to examine their Oswald File. It was covered with block letters saying Never Throw This Out, This Proves We Didn’t Have Anything to Do with the JFK Assassination.

  200. @Mr. Anon
    "Project much?"

    Wow, so clever.

    No. I observe

    “No. I observe”

    Observe, but do not act. You are part and parcel to America’s decline.

  201. @Jack D
    I said it was "not uncommon", not that it was the norm. Of course most upper class white girls prefer men from their own social class (or preferably a little better - women love to marry up) but there is a certain % that loves to go slumming, as you say with hip-hop artists or Chechens or other rough trade. I don't know what the % is but it's far from unheard of. Young girls tend to be especially vulnerable - Obama's mom was 17 when she was impregnated.

    The recent London terrorist was the product of such a teen mother.

    From my experience, when upper class white girls go slumming, usually it’s with a blue collar white male. Blacks are a second choice, but usually from middle class black backgrounds. When they slum it with brown/Hispanic/immigrant men or ghetto black men, typically it’s because they’re fat and/or unattractive.

    If a non-fat UC white girl married a working class Chechen, that’d be considered weird.

    White girls who like rougher blue collar guys still have plenty of white men who are into pickup trucks, guns, MMA, and that type of thing. In Boston, the local rough white guys probably would be Irish/Italian types that work out a lot at the gym, box a little bit, and aspire to be a firefighters or cops. If Mrs. Tsarnaev were a little brighter, she would’ve just married some meathead Irish youth from Southie. Parents wouldn’t have been happy, but at least he’d be an American.

    Obama’s mom, by the way, had a horse face.

  202. @Art Deco
    What might the KGB have gotten from this? Probably just a big surprise that Oswald actually pulled it off.

    They replace one mainstream politicians with another mainstream politician. They get nothing. Which is why the thesis that it's a Soviet plot is not credible from the get go. The only opportunity they've ever had to improve their position through that type of personnel change was during the Roosevelt Administration.

    Oswald always had a lot of bizarre relationships to men from within the American Deep State.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Oswald always had a lot of bizarre relationships to men from within the American Deep State.

    No, Oswald's ending has been a great generator of factoids and memes. He had a mother, he had a brother he was on speaking terms with, he had a brother he wasn't on speaking terms with, he had a stepfather he'd lost contact with, he had a semi-estranged wife and baby daughters, he had transient dealings with co-workers, and some dealings with the cloud of people who were drawn to his wife (Ruth Paine foremost among them). The one thing the man didn't do was build relationships, because he had no aptitude for it.
  203. @Steve Sailer
    Oswald's wife got out of the Soviet Union to prosperous Dallas, TX, didn't she?

    The change of weather must’ve been nice.

  204. @Millennial
    Yes, my point was that it's quite telling that, after the wars, the Scottish term was used for the anti-Jacobite faction, not for the pro-Jacobite faction.

    They are the same. The whole point of the Scots Presbyterians was the purging of Popery out of the national church.

    This was the English "puritan" goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline "puritans" were called Presbyterians in England.

    Once upon a time, it was common knowledge that "puritanism" was virulently anti-Catholic, and that opposition to Catholicism in England had much to do with nationalism.

    The difference was that in Scotland, the reforming agenda sailed through smoothly (this is why I said originally that Scotland was more "puritanical" than England.)

    In England, it met with opposition: hence the coining of the term "puritan" to ridicule, and the fragmentation of the "puritan" faction into Presbyterians, Independents, etc.

    It should also be noted that the term Presbyterian was used by European commentators to describe the New England colonists through the 17th century and as late as the American Revolution.

    Examples abound; here is but one:

    "This has been a Presbyterian war from the beginning as certainly as that as in 1641; and accordingly the first firing against the King's troops was from a Massachusetts meetinghouse."

    -William Jones, "An address to the British government on a subject of present concern, 1776."

    This was the English “puritan” goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline “puritans” were called Presbyterians in England.

    Are you seriously maintaining that the Lutheran/Arminian Church of England was “popish”? It was no more so than (say) the Church of Sweden, which also retained a set liturgy, vestments, bishops, and the Apostolic Succession. The English Civil War was a squabble between two groups of Protestant sectaries, not between Protestant and Catholic. Indeed, Laud was in contact with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, and was exploring the making of common cause with reforming elements among the Greek Orthodox against the Catholics. This is why he inserted an epiklesis in the Eucharistic service of the 1637 Book of Common Prayer that was prepared for the Scottish Episcopal Church, and this epiklesis was later incorporated into the American Book of Common Prayer at the instance of the Scottish bishops that consecrated Seabury after the Revolution. It is still there.

    There was a Presbyterian faction among the English Puritans, but it did not prevail, and they remained Congregational in their polity, both in Old and in New England. There was a strong Independent faction – John Milton was one of its most notable members. The state churches in Massachusetts and Connecticut never became Presbyterian and did not ally themselves ecclesiastically with the Scottish Presbyterians that had settled themselves in New Jersey and other colonies. The quotation from Jones that you cite reflects only his inaccurate understanding. The reason, indeed, for the disestablishment of the Puritan churches in Connecticut (1818) and Massachusetts (1833), was that there was no means of enforcing Trinitarian uniformity when Unitarians gained control of some churches. Their Congregational polity made this impossible. Had there been a supra-congregational authority such as the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland it would have been possible.

    In any event, from the point of view of this discussion, the salient distinction between English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians lay in their approach to the temporal and not the ecclesiastical government. The Presbyterian Scots did not seek to cast off their duly constituted government, whereas the English Puritans did. Unlike the Scots they also sought to “reform” the state, and in doing so exhibited the same tendency towards totalitarian and utopian measures – Voegelin’s “immanentizing the eschaton.”

    Eventually they drifted, both in Old and in New Englsnd, from Calvinism to Socinianism or Unitarianism, to transcendentalism, abolitionism, phrenology, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and Marxism. The Cambridge spies and the modern phenomenon of “political correctness” are late manifestations of such Puritan Schwärmerei. My old friend Mel Bradford used to refer to it as “secular puritanism,” which is apt both historically and psychologically.

    The same phenomenon most emphatically did not occur amongst Scots Presbyterians, nor among Presbyterians in the American South, e.g., Robert Lewis Dabney. If you maintain that there is no difference between Puritan and Presbyterian, then why did the heirs of the two traditions follow such different paths?

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    This summation is gold box quality.
    , @Millennial
    First, you don't seem to understand that "puritan" is a meaningless word- a scare word like "fascist" and "racist."
    "Puritan" was used to belittle English Presbyterians long before the splintering and the rise of the Independents.

    As early as 1634, John Winthrop was writing in his diary that he wanted Scots Presbyterians to come and settle in Massachusetts.

    You, like Moldbug, are overthinking things. You are too focused on ideologies and technicalities.

    The actual state of the CoE at the time doesn't matter. The "puritans" saw in it similarities with Catholicism. At the time, Catholicism was seen as foreign, treasonous (Guido Fawkes) and therefore bad. When Parliamentarian troops went around smashing CoE stuff, they saw themselves as removing a corrupt, foreign, "Romish" influence from their country.

    Of course the Scots Presbyterians didn't need to overthrow their government; they already controlled it (because, again, the pro-Calvinist, anti-papist platform had proven very successful in Scotland).

    In Scotland it was the Royalists who were the insurgents against the legal government (see: Montrose). This pattern was repeated again in 1745.

    The Scots contributed a large army to help the Parliamentarians overthrow theirs (Siege of York, Marston Moor).

    Government reforms? The terms of the Scottish "Engagement" would have rendered Charles (both of them) a total puppet of Parliament. See, again, the grindstone cartoon I linked to.

    Social reforms? The Scots were all about combating libertinism, witchcraft, etc.
    Here's a nice picture (Presbyterian chaplain catches his troops gambling).

    http://www.worldhistory.biz/modern-history/83150-scots-covenanter.html


    Why the different paths? Easy. After the War of 1812, New England urbanized and industrialized. The frontier vanished. The old enemies- the Indians, French, redcoats- were no longer a threat. Peace, prosperity, technological innovation, higher standards of living equals more egalitarianism. Religious practices inevitably shift to accommodate this. Old England was affected by similar factors.

    In the American south, frontier conditions lasted longer, plus there was always a huge slave population to keep in check. The slave economy meant there was little interest in, or need for, urbanization etc. So, more conservative attitudes endured in the south.

    See also: Western (safe, hi-tech, prosperous) vs. Eastern (hardscrabble) Europe.

  205. @Jack D
    The past is a different country. Listen to the way that FDR speaks (or William F. Buckley). Not one American of the current generation still talks that way - they would get laughed at and beaten up if they tried.

    Upper class British pronunciation is less far off from Keynes than modern American UC pronunciation is from FDR or WFB.

    Buckley claimed that his first language was Spanish. He spent part of his early years in school in England. This has been said to account for his (contrived) version of a Mid-Atlantic accent. It
    was always a charade. Members of his family spoke more like normal East Coast WASPS, though one parent was the son of an Irish Catholic Texas sheriff and the other was a New Orleans Jewess.

  206. @Art Deco
    His father was never the pro-consul in the Ukraine or anywhere else. His father's a quondam low rent suburban lawyer who excels at running electoral campaigns in small jurisdictions. He's never had any executive responsibilities. One thing people who know him say he has a natural aptitude for is the real estate business (in which he's never worked, ironically). See Brit Hume's reporting on Sen. Biden ca. 1986: his notable feature was motormouth showboating. Hunter Biden is talented at leveraging connections, and if he hasn't made himself wealthy doing that, it's because too much money went up his nose.

    Art Deco:

    I agree with almost all your comments regarding Joe Biden and his family with one exception.

    Proconsul is formally defined as a high administrator in one of the empires. MacArthur is a modern example of this in his administration of Japan.

    I believe that Joe Biden exerted an inordinate (and nefarious) control of events in Ukraine from his Washington perch. Obama essentially farmed out Ukraine foreign policy to him. In turn his son has mightily profited there from his role in supporting sundry corrupt oligarchs.

    The Biden family and Victoria Nuland (of cookie dispensing fame) have been disasters both to America and Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I believe that Joe Biden exerted an inordinate (and nefarious) control of events in Ukraine from his Washington perch.

    Even a practiced administrator could not 'control' anything from Washington, and Biden was anything but tht.
  207. @Crawfurdmuir

    This was the English “puritan” goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline “puritans” were called Presbyterians in England.
     
    Are you seriously maintaining that the Lutheran/Arminian Church of England was "popish"? It was no more so than (say) the Church of Sweden, which also retained a set liturgy, vestments, bishops, and the Apostolic Succession. The English Civil War was a squabble between two groups of Protestant sectaries, not between Protestant and Catholic. Indeed, Laud was in contact with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, and was exploring the making of common cause with reforming elements among the Greek Orthodox against the Catholics. This is why he inserted an epiklesis in the Eucharistic service of the 1637 Book of Common Prayer that was prepared for the Scottish Episcopal Church, and this epiklesis was later incorporated into the American Book of Common Prayer at the instance of the Scottish bishops that consecrated Seabury after the Revolution. It is still there.

    There was a Presbyterian faction among the English Puritans, but it did not prevail, and they remained Congregational in their polity, both in Old and in New England. There was a strong Independent faction - John Milton was one of its most notable members. The state churches in Massachusetts and Connecticut never became Presbyterian and did not ally themselves ecclesiastically with the Scottish Presbyterians that had settled themselves in New Jersey and other colonies. The quotation from Jones that you cite reflects only his inaccurate understanding. The reason, indeed, for the disestablishment of the Puritan churches in Connecticut (1818) and Massachusetts (1833), was that there was no means of enforcing Trinitarian uniformity when Unitarians gained control of some churches. Their Congregational polity made this impossible. Had there been a supra-congregational authority such as the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland it would have been possible.

    In any event, from the point of view of this discussion, the salient distinction between English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians lay in their approach to the temporal and not the ecclesiastical government. The Presbyterian Scots did not seek to cast off their duly constituted government, whereas the English Puritans did. Unlike the Scots they also sought to "reform" the state, and in doing so exhibited the same tendency towards totalitarian and utopian measures - Voegelin's "immanentizing the eschaton."

    Eventually they drifted, both in Old and in New Englsnd, from Calvinism to Socinianism or Unitarianism, to transcendentalism, abolitionism, phrenology, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and Marxism. The Cambridge spies and the modern phenomenon of "political correctness" are late manifestations of such Puritan Schwärmerei. My old friend Mel Bradford used to refer to it as "secular puritanism," which is apt both historically and psychologically.

    The same phenomenon most emphatically did not occur amongst Scots Presbyterians, nor among Presbyterians in the American South, e.g., Robert Lewis Dabney. If you maintain that there is no difference between Puritan and Presbyterian, then why did the heirs of the two traditions follow such different paths?

    This summation is gold box quality.

  208. @Clyde
    Ignore the carpers and pygmy intellects/
    __________________

    FUMBLE IN JUNGLE RUMBLE Married Calais Jungle charity boss probed after we exposed her affair with a toyboy migrant and secret love nest

    Clare, 46, set up affair in The Jungle with Tunisian conman Mohamed Bajjar, 27, who posed as a Syrian to get into Britain
    Exclusive
    By DEAN WILKINS
    6th February 2017, 9:26 pm
    Updated: 12th February 2017, 7:01 pm

    A CHEATING charity boss is being probed after we exposed her affair with a Calais Jungle migrant.

    The Charity Commission is monitoring Care4Calais founder Clare Moseley after our .......
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2801078/married-calais-jungle-charity-boss-probed-after-we-exposed-her-affair-with-a-toyboy-migrant-and-secret-love-nest/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4141602/Lies-migrant-affair-Care4Calais-boss.html?amp&amp

    Thanks. There have been others doing this at the camp. One boyo even smuggled himself into England to be with his much older “charity lover” and was, amazingly, allowed to apply for asylum.

    I am not very good at the Paul Ekman way of reading faces but the pictures of the couples are show pieces of insincerity, smugness and, in some cases, disgust.

  209. @Crawfurdmuir

    This was the English “puritan” goal as well: purging the CoE of popish remnants. Mainline “puritans” were called Presbyterians in England.
     
    Are you seriously maintaining that the Lutheran/Arminian Church of England was "popish"? It was no more so than (say) the Church of Sweden, which also retained a set liturgy, vestments, bishops, and the Apostolic Succession. The English Civil War was a squabble between two groups of Protestant sectaries, not between Protestant and Catholic. Indeed, Laud was in contact with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, and was exploring the making of common cause with reforming elements among the Greek Orthodox against the Catholics. This is why he inserted an epiklesis in the Eucharistic service of the 1637 Book of Common Prayer that was prepared for the Scottish Episcopal Church, and this epiklesis was later incorporated into the American Book of Common Prayer at the instance of the Scottish bishops that consecrated Seabury after the Revolution. It is still there.

    There was a Presbyterian faction among the English Puritans, but it did not prevail, and they remained Congregational in their polity, both in Old and in New England. There was a strong Independent faction - John Milton was one of its most notable members. The state churches in Massachusetts and Connecticut never became Presbyterian and did not ally themselves ecclesiastically with the Scottish Presbyterians that had settled themselves in New Jersey and other colonies. The quotation from Jones that you cite reflects only his inaccurate understanding. The reason, indeed, for the disestablishment of the Puritan churches in Connecticut (1818) and Massachusetts (1833), was that there was no means of enforcing Trinitarian uniformity when Unitarians gained control of some churches. Their Congregational polity made this impossible. Had there been a supra-congregational authority such as the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland it would have been possible.

    In any event, from the point of view of this discussion, the salient distinction between English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians lay in their approach to the temporal and not the ecclesiastical government. The Presbyterian Scots did not seek to cast off their duly constituted government, whereas the English Puritans did. Unlike the Scots they also sought to "reform" the state, and in doing so exhibited the same tendency towards totalitarian and utopian measures - Voegelin's "immanentizing the eschaton."

    Eventually they drifted, both in Old and in New Englsnd, from Calvinism to Socinianism or Unitarianism, to transcendentalism, abolitionism, phrenology, spiritualism, prohibitionism, socialism, and Marxism. The Cambridge spies and the modern phenomenon of "political correctness" are late manifestations of such Puritan Schwärmerei. My old friend Mel Bradford used to refer to it as "secular puritanism," which is apt both historically and psychologically.

    The same phenomenon most emphatically did not occur amongst Scots Presbyterians, nor among Presbyterians in the American South, e.g., Robert Lewis Dabney. If you maintain that there is no difference between Puritan and Presbyterian, then why did the heirs of the two traditions follow such different paths?

    First, you don’t seem to understand that “puritan” is a meaningless word- a scare word like “fascist” and “racist.”
    “Puritan” was used to belittle English Presbyterians long before the splintering and the rise of the Independents.

    As early as 1634, John Winthrop was writing in his diary that he wanted Scots Presbyterians to come and settle in Massachusetts.

    You, like Moldbug, are overthinking things. You are too focused on ideologies and technicalities.

    The actual state of the CoE at the time doesn’t matter. The “puritans” saw in it similarities with Catholicism. At the time, Catholicism was seen as foreign, treasonous (Guido Fawkes) and therefore bad. When Parliamentarian troops went around smashing CoE stuff, they saw themselves as removing a corrupt, foreign, “Romish” influence from their country.

    Of course the Scots Presbyterians didn’t need to overthrow their government; they already controlled it (because, again, the pro-Calvinist, anti-papist platform had proven very successful in Scotland).

    In Scotland it was the Royalists who were the insurgents against the legal government (see: Montrose). This pattern was repeated again in 1745.

    The Scots contributed a large army to help the Parliamentarians overthrow theirs (Siege of York, Marston Moor).

    Government reforms? The terms of the Scottish “Engagement” would have rendered Charles (both of them) a total puppet of Parliament. See, again, the grindstone cartoon I linked to.

    Social reforms? The Scots were all about combating libertinism, witchcraft, etc.
    Here’s a nice picture (Presbyterian chaplain catches his troops gambling).

    http://www.worldhistory.biz/modern-history/83150-scots-covenanter.html

    Why the different paths? Easy. After the War of 1812, New England urbanized and industrialized. The frontier vanished. The old enemies- the Indians, French, redcoats- were no longer a threat. Peace, prosperity, technological innovation, higher standards of living equals more egalitarianism. Religious practices inevitably shift to accommodate this. Old England was affected by similar factors.

    In the American south, frontier conditions lasted longer, plus there was always a huge slave population to keep in check. The slave economy meant there was little interest in, or need for, urbanization etc. So, more conservative attitudes endured in the south.

    See also: Western (safe, hi-tech, prosperous) vs. Eastern (hardscrabble) Europe.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    Let us assume you explain away the difference between Southern Presbyterians like Dabney or Thornwell and New England Puritans as you have - how do you explain that between (say) the very conservative Presbyterian Charles Hodge at Princeton, which hardly represented "frontier conditions," and New England's heirs to the Puritan tradition, such as Emerson or the "Secret Six"?

    The same contrast may be drawn between Scottish Presbyterians in the 18th and 19th centuries, who remained simple followers of John Knox, and English non-conforming clergy like Joseph Priestley, whose career is a microcosm of liberal drift from Calvinist orthodoxy. In the twentieth century, the redoubtable Tory John Buchan, Lord Tweedsmuir, became Moderator of the Church of Scotland; at the same time in England, the University of Cambridge, that old Puritan hotbed, was harbouring Blunt, Burgess, and Philby. One might say that both in Old and New England, Puritans transitioned effortlessly from mere whiggery to outright whigmaleerie.
  210. @Millennial
    First, you don't seem to understand that "puritan" is a meaningless word- a scare word like "fascist" and "racist."
    "Puritan" was used to belittle English Presbyterians long before the splintering and the rise of the Independents.

    As early as 1634, John Winthrop was writing in his diary that he wanted Scots Presbyterians to come and settle in Massachusetts.

    You, like Moldbug, are overthinking things. You are too focused on ideologies and technicalities.

    The actual state of the CoE at the time doesn't matter. The "puritans" saw in it similarities with Catholicism. At the time, Catholicism was seen as foreign, treasonous (Guido Fawkes) and therefore bad. When Parliamentarian troops went around smashing CoE stuff, they saw themselves as removing a corrupt, foreign, "Romish" influence from their country.

    Of course the Scots Presbyterians didn't need to overthrow their government; they already controlled it (because, again, the pro-Calvinist, anti-papist platform had proven very successful in Scotland).

    In Scotland it was the Royalists who were the insurgents against the legal government (see: Montrose). This pattern was repeated again in 1745.

    The Scots contributed a large army to help the Parliamentarians overthrow theirs (Siege of York, Marston Moor).

    Government reforms? The terms of the Scottish "Engagement" would have rendered Charles (both of them) a total puppet of Parliament. See, again, the grindstone cartoon I linked to.

    Social reforms? The Scots were all about combating libertinism, witchcraft, etc.
    Here's a nice picture (Presbyterian chaplain catches his troops gambling).

    http://www.worldhistory.biz/modern-history/83150-scots-covenanter.html


    Why the different paths? Easy. After the War of 1812, New England urbanized and industrialized. The frontier vanished. The old enemies- the Indians, French, redcoats- were no longer a threat. Peace, prosperity, technological innovation, higher standards of living equals more egalitarianism. Religious practices inevitably shift to accommodate this. Old England was affected by similar factors.

    In the American south, frontier conditions lasted longer, plus there was always a huge slave population to keep in check. The slave economy meant there was little interest in, or need for, urbanization etc. So, more conservative attitudes endured in the south.

    See also: Western (safe, hi-tech, prosperous) vs. Eastern (hardscrabble) Europe.

    Let us assume you explain away the difference between Southern Presbyterians like Dabney or Thornwell and New England Puritans as you have – how do you explain that between (say) the very conservative Presbyterian Charles Hodge at Princeton, which hardly represented “frontier conditions,” and New England’s heirs to the Puritan tradition, such as Emerson or the “Secret Six”?

    The same contrast may be drawn between Scottish Presbyterians in the 18th and 19th centuries, who remained simple followers of John Knox, and English non-conforming clergy like Joseph Priestley, whose career is a microcosm of liberal drift from Calvinist orthodoxy. In the twentieth century, the redoubtable Tory John Buchan, Lord Tweedsmuir, became Moderator of the Church of Scotland; at the same time in England, the University of Cambridge, that old Puritan hotbed, was harbouring Blunt, Burgess, and Philby. One might say that both in Old and New England, Puritans transitioned effortlessly from mere whiggery to outright whigmaleerie.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    His analysis is all political economy, no culture/theology. He has no vocabulary to conceptualize the very significant differences.

    That and for now the English tradition has eclipsed the Scots, even at, for instance, Princeton Seminary.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/princeton-appalled-kuyper-prize-named-after-kuyper/?ref_widget=trending&ref_blog=peterenns&ref_post=my-last-patheos-post

    See, by contrast:

    https://www.logos.com/product/47228/the-lion-of-princeton-bb-warfield-as-apologist-and-theologian
    , @Millennial
    Princeton was, in fact, in close proximity to the brutal Pennsylvania frontier during the French and Indian War and during the Revolution.

    Hodge, by the way, was raised by his Boston Yankee mother.

    Of the secret six, Gerrit Smith was an ex-Presbyterian Church member who helped free Jeff Davis after the war.

    Emerson was essentially declared persona non grata by his alma mater for his views.

    Priestley deliberately rejected his rural, Calvinist roots and upbringing at an early age. He was, by inclination, a cosmopolitan and a scientist. His career rather proves my point about the liberalizing effects of modernity.

    Buchan supported female suffrage and other progressive reforms; he was also a self-described Gladstonian liberal.

    The Cambridge spies were complex men with complex backgrounds. It's simply ridiculous to blame "puritanism." It would likewise be ridiculous to blame Royalists for all the leftist Oxford graduates.

  211. @Art Deco
    He had no connections, except in the imagination of votaries of a certain sort of literature, who pass factoids one-to-another. The sophisticated adherents to the conspiracy hypothesis (Josiah Thompson, Cyril Wecht) stay away from this tripe.

    Oswald had connections to George DeMohrenschildt (who was assassinated by the FBI), David Athlee Phillips, and even Jack Ruby.

    Watch the video. Reporter Bill O’Reilly covered this.

    Also, Judge Garrison (who discovered the CIA-driven assassination plot) had his investigation infiltrated by govt agents.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Oswald had connections to George DeMohrenschildt

    They were acquainted. My mother once knew Clark Clifford, but my mother was a person of no influence.


    (who was assassinated by the FBI),

    He wasn't.

    and even Jack Ruby.

    He set foot in one of Ruby's nightclubs? This is of interest why?

  212. @Crawfurdmuir
    Let us assume you explain away the difference between Southern Presbyterians like Dabney or Thornwell and New England Puritans as you have - how do you explain that between (say) the very conservative Presbyterian Charles Hodge at Princeton, which hardly represented "frontier conditions," and New England's heirs to the Puritan tradition, such as Emerson or the "Secret Six"?

    The same contrast may be drawn between Scottish Presbyterians in the 18th and 19th centuries, who remained simple followers of John Knox, and English non-conforming clergy like Joseph Priestley, whose career is a microcosm of liberal drift from Calvinist orthodoxy. In the twentieth century, the redoubtable Tory John Buchan, Lord Tweedsmuir, became Moderator of the Church of Scotland; at the same time in England, the University of Cambridge, that old Puritan hotbed, was harbouring Blunt, Burgess, and Philby. One might say that both in Old and New England, Puritans transitioned effortlessly from mere whiggery to outright whigmaleerie.

    His analysis is all political economy, no culture/theology. He has no vocabulary to conceptualize the very significant differences.

    That and for now the English tradition has eclipsed the Scots, even at, for instance, Princeton Seminary.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/princeton-appalled-kuyper-prize-named-after-kuyper/?ref_widget=trending&ref_blog=peterenns&ref_post=my-last-patheos-post

    See, by contrast:

    https://www.logos.com/product/47228/the-lion-of-princeton-bb-warfield-as-apologist-and-theologian

  213. @Crawfurdmuir
    Let us assume you explain away the difference between Southern Presbyterians like Dabney or Thornwell and New England Puritans as you have - how do you explain that between (say) the very conservative Presbyterian Charles Hodge at Princeton, which hardly represented "frontier conditions," and New England's heirs to the Puritan tradition, such as Emerson or the "Secret Six"?

    The same contrast may be drawn between Scottish Presbyterians in the 18th and 19th centuries, who remained simple followers of John Knox, and English non-conforming clergy like Joseph Priestley, whose career is a microcosm of liberal drift from Calvinist orthodoxy. In the twentieth century, the redoubtable Tory John Buchan, Lord Tweedsmuir, became Moderator of the Church of Scotland; at the same time in England, the University of Cambridge, that old Puritan hotbed, was harbouring Blunt, Burgess, and Philby. One might say that both in Old and New England, Puritans transitioned effortlessly from mere whiggery to outright whigmaleerie.

    Princeton was, in fact, in close proximity to the brutal Pennsylvania frontier during the French and Indian War and during the Revolution.

    Hodge, by the way, was raised by his Boston Yankee mother.

    Of the secret six, Gerrit Smith was an ex-Presbyterian Church member who helped free Jeff Davis after the war.

    Emerson was essentially declared persona non grata by his alma mater for his views.

    Priestley deliberately rejected his rural, Calvinist roots and upbringing at an early age. He was, by inclination, a cosmopolitan and a scientist. His career rather proves my point about the liberalizing effects of modernity.

    Buchan supported female suffrage and other progressive reforms; he was also a self-described Gladstonian liberal.

    The Cambridge spies were complex men with complex backgrounds. It’s simply ridiculous to blame “puritanism.” It would likewise be ridiculous to blame Royalists for all the leftist Oxford graduates.

  214. @JohnnyWalker123
    Oswald had connections to George DeMohrenschildt (who was assassinated by the FBI), David Athlee Phillips, and even Jack Ruby.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvdS-1dcVxw

    Watch the video. Reporter Bill O'Reilly covered this.

    Also, Judge Garrison (who discovered the CIA-driven assassination plot) had his investigation infiltrated by govt agents.

    Oswald had connections to George DeMohrenschildt

    They were acquainted. My mother once knew Clark Clifford, but my mother was a person of no influence.

    (who was assassinated by the FBI),

    He wasn’t.

    and even Jack Ruby.

    He set foot in one of Ruby’s nightclubs? This is of interest why?

  215. @Dan Hayes
    Art Deco:

    I agree with almost all your comments regarding Joe Biden and his family with one exception.

    Proconsul is formally defined as a high administrator in one of the empires. MacArthur is a modern example of this in his administration of Japan.

    I believe that Joe Biden exerted an inordinate (and nefarious) control of events in Ukraine from his Washington perch. Obama essentially farmed out Ukraine foreign policy to him. In turn his son has mightily profited there from his role in supporting sundry corrupt oligarchs.

    The Biden family and Victoria Nuland (of cookie dispensing fame) have been disasters both to America and Ukraine.

    I believe that Joe Biden exerted an inordinate (and nefarious) control of events in Ukraine from his Washington perch.

    Even a practiced administrator could not ‘control’ anything from Washington, and Biden was anything but tht.

    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
  216. @JohnnyWalker123
    Oswald always had a lot of bizarre relationships to men from within the American Deep State.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns5z1BHfEvc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYbpg_aXHOc

    Oswald always had a lot of bizarre relationships to men from within the American Deep State.

    No, Oswald’s ending has been a great generator of factoids and memes. He had a mother, he had a brother he was on speaking terms with, he had a brother he wasn’t on speaking terms with, he had a stepfather he’d lost contact with, he had a semi-estranged wife and baby daughters, he had transient dealings with co-workers, and some dealings with the cloud of people who were drawn to his wife (Ruth Paine foremost among them). The one thing the man didn’t do was build relationships, because he had no aptitude for it.

  217. @theo the kraut
    They don't need to know--they yearn for what's noble and savage, and they know it as soon as they see it. May be you live in a conservative small town in the US, good for you, it's different in big Western cities. While women are more 'racist' regarding mating choices there's a fascination with exotic bad boys, though most don't go with their urges, being wiser than that in their real lives. It's different when it goes to expressing these urges politically, though.

    I've met several educated posh white women with a penchant for brown guys from the exotic huddled masses. One was a psychology major who fell for one of our German Turk migrants, a violent small town criminal with some charm. He broke her nose once and crippled an adversary with a sucker punch in her presence, the guy being paraplegic ever since. Yet she has fondest memories, what with him being tough on the outside but vulnerable on the inside and else poor and misunderstood. I value your comments but sometimes you haven't got a clue. It's a mere preference, of course, most women know better, but I guess you know how funny even small preferences can turn out statistically, and they're not so small. I live in Berlin Kreuzberg, Berlin's prog/migrant diversitopia, where many posh folks dwell for a period of exquisite elegant slumming, and may be 1 in 100 women is sane.

    > You don’t know any real “upper class White girls,” ...
    > Most of them don’t even know what a Chechen is

    We've different standards then. At least over here, if you don't know what eg a Chechen is, you're being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class. Which is a bit unfair, because even our tabloids report on Chechen crime and terror by now...

    We’ve different standards then. At least over here, if you don’t know what eg a Chechen is, you’re being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class.

    1. Here in the U.S. we do not have many Chechens. It would be unkind, to say the least, to categorize people who have little familiarity with a miniscule minority in the country as “idiots.”

    2. Also, in the U.S. dating and marriage are highly assortative cognitively/social status-wise. My wife and I are multiple Ivy League alums, and our alumni magazines are full of class notes of those who married graduates of other Ivy or top-tier universities. This phenomenon should be obvious to those who read Charles Murray’s book or the marriage announcement section of the New York Times.

    I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that a vast majority of upper crust young white women in the U.S. are not hankering for a Chechen or “brown guys from the exotic huddled masses,” unless of course these brown guys are Ivy League graduates or physicians or hedge fund managers. If you don’t believe me, take a trip to, say, the Newport Yacht Club the next time you are in the U.S. Or visit Nantucket, Martha’s Vineyard or Block Island, and count how many brown men you see with upper crust white women.

    I value your comments but sometimes you haven’t got a clue.

    3. You are reading someone who a) interviewed several Chechens… of the actual Jihadi variety, and b) married into a very posh Midwestern white family, the kind of a family that once ran everything in their city and the surrounding areas – local government, university, bank, law firm, newspaper, various highrise office buildings, farms, etc. My in-laws are upper crust whites with the capital U, and all the women in the family are married to whites, except two who are married to East Asians (both Ivy Leaguers).

    • Replies: @theo the kraut
    > It would be unkind, to say the least, to categorize people who have
    > little familiarity with a miniscule minority in the country as “idiots.”
    We haven't many in Europe neither, though authorities try to change that with a vengeance. However, as a member of the informed class, whether elite or not, you're supposed to know how they behave elsewhere, particularly in Russia, you're supposed to know about the recent wars in Chechnya and thus, Chechnya. US elites aren't more charitable than elsewhere but more insulated regarding the rest of the world. Should go with the--enormous--US territory, but still.

    > I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that a vast
    > majority of upper crust young white women in the U.S. are not
    > hankering for a Chechen or “brown guys from the exotic huddled
    > masses,”
    You're ignoring my argument by taking it literally. They hardly ever follow through with their preferences personally but act it out vicariously by being more progressive than men on average, including immigration issues, which favours brown bad guys.
  218. @Twinkie

    We’ve different standards then. At least over here, if you don’t know what eg a Chechen is, you’re being regarded as a tabloid-fed idiot, certainly not upper class.
     
    1. Here in the U.S. we do not have many Chechens. It would be unkind, to say the least, to categorize people who have little familiarity with a miniscule minority in the country as "idiots."

    2. Also, in the U.S. dating and marriage are highly assortative cognitively/social status-wise. My wife and I are multiple Ivy League alums, and our alumni magazines are full of class notes of those who married graduates of other Ivy or top-tier universities. This phenomenon should be obvious to those who read Charles Murray's book or the marriage announcement section of the New York Times.

    I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that a vast majority of upper crust young white women in the U.S. are not hankering for a Chechen or "brown guys from the exotic huddled masses," unless of course these brown guys are Ivy League graduates or physicians or hedge fund managers. If you don't believe me, take a trip to, say, the Newport Yacht Club the next time you are in the U.S. Or visit Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard or Block Island, and count how many brown men you see with upper crust white women.

    I value your comments but sometimes you haven’t got a clue.
     
    3. You are reading someone who a) interviewed several Chechens... of the actual Jihadi variety, and b) married into a very posh Midwestern white family, the kind of a family that once ran everything in their city and the surrounding areas - local government, university, bank, law firm, newspaper, various highrise office buildings, farms, etc. My in-laws are upper crust whites with the capital U, and all the women in the family are married to whites, except two who are married to East Asians (both Ivy Leaguers).

    > It would be unkind, to say the least, to categorize people who have
    > little familiarity with a miniscule minority in the country as “idiots.”
    We haven’t many in Europe neither, though authorities try to change that with a vengeance. However, as a member of the informed class, whether elite or not, you’re supposed to know how they behave elsewhere, particularly in Russia, you’re supposed to know about the recent wars in Chechnya and thus, Chechnya. US elites aren’t more charitable than elsewhere but more insulated regarding the rest of the world. Should go with the–enormous–US territory, but still.

    > I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that a vast
    > majority of upper crust young white women in the U.S. are not
    > hankering for a Chechen or “brown guys from the exotic huddled
    > masses,”
    You’re ignoring my argument by taking it literally. They hardly ever follow through with their preferences personally but act it out vicariously by being more progressive than men on average, including immigration issues, which favours brown bad guys.

  219. @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    After the Philby, Burgess, et al debacles, the British spying services made concerted efforts to hire Roman Catholics with the thought they would be less likely to be traitors because of their anti-Communist religion.

    BTW, I have always been suspicious of Donovan, even though he was an Irish Catholic, as he loaded up the OSS with subversives or near subversives.

    Evidently they never heard of Graham Greene.

    (Not that he was a traitor, of course, but you know what I mean.)

    • Agree: Dan Hayes

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