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From Recode, the first purportedly inside account of who was behind firing coder James Damore for crimethink:
As it turned out, the meeting wasn’t hard at all because Pinchai cancelled it.
Pichai’s management team did not at first agree on what to do.
BY KARA SWISHER @KARASWISHER AUG 10, 2017, 1:00PM
Let’s all assume Google CEO Sundar Pichai has a really hard day ahead of him.
That’s because at 4 pm PT, the tech giant will hold an all-hands meeting to discuss the firing of James Damore and the controversial internal memo he wrote about women and their biological weaknesses related to tech that got him canned from the company. …
Pichai made the final decision about Damore’s fate, after what several sources with knowledge of the meeting characterized as a tough debate by top management, with initial disagreement over how to handle the situation. …
According to those familiar with the discussion, his dozen direct reports whom he consulted were initially at odds about what to do about Google’s continual and complex balancing act between free speech and fostering a safe workplace.
“Just like all of Google is struggling with this, we were not unanimous at first about whether what [Damore] wrote merited firing, although we all came around to it,” said one top exec. “But Sundar had to make a call about what kind of Google he wanted to stress and he did.”
Others familiar with the meeting said it centered on how much latitude employees should have to express their opinions — one of the central tenets of Google since its founding — versus creating a culture that is trying to become attractive and safe to a broader range of people.
“I think the problem and also benefit of Google has been that we’ve created and encouraged an environment where everyone thinks they can say what they want, because that is what has always been the way it has been,” said another top exec. “But, at some point, if we really want to change, we have to think harder about what impact that has, especially when it makes women or others feel unsafe in the environment we have created.”
So this is all tied into the paranoid delusions over Safe Spaces and wearing Safety Pins after Trump’s election.
Violent memos.
It’s a split reflected at the very top of Google’s owner, Alphabet, where its top lawyer, David Drummond, has been one of the most vocal advocates of free speech over the years. As an Alphabet exec, he was not part of Monday’s decision-making meeting.
Meanwhile, another longtime Google leader, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki, who was at the meeting, penned her own essay that appeared in Fortune this week, with an opposite take.
“While people may have a right to express their beliefs in public, that does not mean companies cannot take action when women are subjected to comments that perpetuate negative stereotypes about them based on their gender,” she wrote. “Every day, companies take action against employees who make unlawful statements about co-workers, or create hostile work environments.” …
In fact, Damore posted the essay earlier in one of Google’s smaller discussion platforms — not one like its massive “eng-misc” one — before it bubbled up this past weekend and was finally noticed by top execs.
Alerted to it, sources said Pichai then started off gathering opinions from his direct reports — such as Wojcicki, HR head Eileen Naughton, top lawyer Kent Walker, cloud leader Diane Greene, communications head Jessica Powell and business head Philipp Schindler. Not all were physically present at Google’s Silicon Valley HQ, where the group debated the issue, and were at first split.
“It was a cordial discussion, considering the topic, and you could see how you could argue both sides on the face of it,” said one source. “But I think Damore’s focus on biology really made it clear that he had crossed the line.”
What turned the tide, said sources, was when it was noted that if Damore’s dubious contentions about women’s skills were replaced by those about race or religion, there would be no debate.
In fact, Wojcicki said as much in her essay:
“For instance, what if we replaced the word ‘women’ in the memo with another group? What if the memo said that biological differences amongst Black, Hispanic, or LGBTQ employees explained their underrepresentation in tech and leadership roles? Would some people still be discussing the merit of the memo’s arguments or would there be a universal call for swift action against its author? I don’t ask this to compare one group to another, but rather to point out that the language of discrimination can take many different forms and none are acceptable or productive.” …
So it sounds as if Wojcicki was, at least according to Swisher’s initial reporting, the winner in this internal power struggle.
Said one flatly: “He cannot spew his dubious biology arguments — you can find any study to justify any crazy notion — and not pay a price for it.”
Pichai wrote to employees on Monday and said as much, but much more politely: “To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK.”
As I mentioned yesterday, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki, who remains deeply resentful of any time her abilities have been questioned during her lucrative career, is the former sister-in-law of Google co-founder Sergey Brin.
After all, if we don’t shut this kind of talk down right now, some punk bastard might even mention … nepotism!
YouTube loses money hand over fist.
1. Boss's sister-in-law/movie lady
2. HR lady
3. Press lady/spokeswoman. How much more stereotyped can one get? Shouldn't there be at least 50% men in these roles?Replies: @Clyde
The racial gap is actually far more pronounced than the gender gap at Google.
Black make up 1% of tech roles at Goole… is it 0.4% rounded to 1%?
How many of these blacks are actually 25%, 50% or 75% white ancestry.
Steve Jobs was panicked at the lack of black engineers at Apple. It’s universal, not Google specific.
But Charles Murray has been debunked right?
Another gender stereotype: why Google founder Sergey Brin ditched his 40+ yr old wife for a new 20-something girlfriend?
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite… I wonder why….
And for all of that Sergey won't be happy. For Sergey to be happy, you must be unhappy. Otherwise Sergey isn't the smartest guy in the universe.
I am happy about this, because I know Sergey will be unhappy forever, just like his soulmates Stalin, Castro and the Kim Norks.
Don't tell Chrissie. She thinks she's still a prize!
https://vimeo.com/12923066
He was learning how to stand
when I wore my first wedding band...
Lots of data about immigration and deportation under Trump:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/10/16119910/trump-deportations-obama
Good news: the numbers of illegals caught at the border has dropped by about 50% under Trump. That means fewer are trying. Trump’s rhetoric, even though he has not followed through on most of it, has had a powerful deterrent effect. If half all illegals get apprehended at the border, this implies that the new illegal population will fall by about 140,000 in 2017.
Bad news: the number of those already here getting deported each month has actually dropped under Trump. That is mostly because the easy deportations on the border have dropped so much.
I’ve called some of the immigration proposals vaporware, especially the really stupid ones to increase the already very heavy federal penalties for illegal entry after deportation. The article points to two proposals that are realistic and would actually result in much larger numbers of deportations.
The first is to increase the deportation infrastructure, specifically the number of prosecutors and the number of BIA judges. BIA appeals go to regular federal judges, so we’d need more of those too. Without doing this, showy ICE raids of illegals does nothing to increase deportations.
Increasing the deportation infrastructure is something that could actually pass Congress. Indeed, there have been several moderate increases lately.
But the most promising possibility is something Trump could do via executive-branch regulation:
This is why Rick Perry at DHS would be a disaster. His record in Texas is not supporting the rule of law, but of giving illegals in-state tuition and calling Mitt Romney heartless for disagreeing with him.
10th Circuit is taking every 8 USC 1325 case that crosses its desk, as well as every 1326a1, b1, and b2 case. This was unthinkable in the Obama era.
Women take everything too personally.
Whether this is good or not is removed from the statement. You obviously think it is bad, while whoever designed women must have thought it good, if it is indeed true as you assert.
That leads to two questions:
1) Upon what do you base your claim that women take things more personally than men?
2) Why is this bad? If it were bad, why would it be a pervasive trait of females assuming it does actually exist.Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bill, @whoever
Ironically, Wojcicki has proven Darmore’s point repeatedly by acting like such a drama queen.
I can’t hear the last sentence in anything but a female voice. Has a man ever said “offensive and not OK”?
That was the language of pre-schoolers when they were first learning to use their words.Replies: @StillCARealist
Liberal men aren't gay, but neither are they real men. We need a new word for liberal White men. How about race traitor?Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @Samuel Skinner, @Roderick Spode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN29X2HCKpU
Love this. Men and women being different is now just some crazy notion that nutjobs believe in, like the History Channel alien guy with the crazy hair. We are truly living in bizarro world now.
It occurred to me that the others in the discussion (mainly Millenials) have never heard of this and/or think it is all crazy fantasy stuff.
They should’ve suspended the guy a couple weeks and sent him to sensitivity training and it would’ve all blown over. Pro sports figured this long ago.
The Occam’s comment boiled down to it’s essence. Yes, they do.
Except that the women who are googlers are ostensibly biologically suited for google.
Time for the ol’ comp sci joke: There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand statistics (normal distribution, standard deviation, kurtosis, skewness, mean, mode, r^2, p etc.) and those who don’t.
It's sort of well known in BigLaw that the diversity hires have a shelf life - very, very few become equity partners, and the best behaved ones go on to jobs within the firm like "director of minority recruiting" or "director of pro-bono services." Their non-diversity hire peers get to do the heavy lifting to make up for the lost productivity of having an attorney without the requisite aptitude to do actual high level legal work.
If I had been at that executive meeting, I would have said, fire the jerk. If he’s got major problems with something we consider core corporate policy, tell him to find an employer closer to his values.
And that’s what I would tell the public. NOT this nonsense about hurtful remarks, implying that women have fragile egos that need special care and coddling from upper management.
I don’t think they’ve quite thought through the implications of this sort of squishy epistemology.
Anyhow, there’s a simple solution to this kerfuffle:
Make Alphabet’s US workforce look like America: 50% women, 13% black, etc.
Again more evidence that women are the natural and eternal enemy of White men; at least Upper Class White women and those who aspire to that status or follow them. White women have broadly allied themselves with non-Whites against the mutual hated enemy: White men. Who are HATE HATE HATED for being fractionally smarter than their non-White male peers, for the most part.
Why all the anti-White male venom? Because White men are simply too higher IQ to engage in the domination rituals and highly aggressive physical personal behavior in men that White women crave; and so the excuses and ritual abasements before Muslims, Black men, etc. Duh.
TLDR: White women broke up with Beta Male Bob to get with Wife-Beater Ahmed. Who only hits them because he loves them and makes other men afraid. That’s it. And that’s public and private policy in government and corporations writ large. There is no end of ways in which White women are the natural and eternal enemy of White men. Which means the dominance bid by White men must go up marginally much higher than the competition.
Google will likely be nearly White male free in the engineering / tech dept in two years time, I’ll bet. And will crater in that time as well, technically at least. I’ve switched to Bing; and I expect a lot of people to do so as well.
James Damore would have led Qaddafi style, Viagra-fuelled, alt-right rape squads on the Google campus if he hadn’t been stopped in time. He probably would have ridden around Silicon Valley on a horse with his shirt off too, just like his paymaster, Putin.
This is the money quote. This was not just canning some nobody. It was crossing the Rubicon, the turning point from which there is no going back. Before this week, Google was an organization where the most important value was speaking the truth, getting stuff done. But now it is just another libtard nursery where the most important value is to create a “safe space” for their infantile charges. This is the day that marks the beginning of the end at Google.
Black make up 1% of tech roles at Goole... is it 0.4% rounded to 1%?
How many of these blacks are actually 25%, 50% or 75% white ancestry.
Steve Jobs was panicked at the lack of black engineers at Apple. It's universal, not Google specific.
But Charles Murray has been debunked right?
Another gender stereotype: why Google founder Sergey Brin ditched his 40+ yr old wife for a new 20-something girlfriend?
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite... I wonder why....Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Dave Pinsen, @Anonymous, @anonymous coward
Sergey Brin is the smartest guy in the universe! Just ask him. So for Sergey to be constrained by any strictures constructed by lesser intellects (and you know Sergey think there are at least 7+ billion lessers on Planet Earth) would be a disservice to his brilliance! So the 20 year old current squeeze will be replaced in 10 years by a 20 year old squeeze. And with medical technology Sergey will do the same for at least seven more times.
And for all of that Sergey won’t be happy. For Sergey to be happy, you must be unhappy. Otherwise Sergey isn’t the smartest guy in the universe.
I am happy about this, because I know Sergey will be unhappy forever, just like his soulmates Stalin, Castro and the Kim Norks.
Wojcicki wants women to be victims in good standing in the Coalition of the Fringes. It’s not going to work Susan. The others have noticed that you are sleeping with the enemy and they don’t trust you.
Anyhow, there's a simple solution to this kerfuffle:
Make Alphabet's US workforce look like America: 50% women, 13% black, etc.Replies: @David
And 50% of payroll to women, 13% to blacks, etc.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/10/16119910/trump-deportations-obama
Good news: the numbers of illegals caught at the border has dropped by about 50% under Trump. That means fewer are trying. Trump's rhetoric, even though he has not followed through on most of it, has had a powerful deterrent effect. If half all illegals get apprehended at the border, this implies that the new illegal population will fall by about 140,000 in 2017.
Bad news: the number of those already here getting deported each month has actually dropped under Trump. That is mostly because the easy deportations on the border have dropped so much.
I've called some of the immigration proposals vaporware, especially the really stupid ones to increase the already very heavy federal penalties for illegal entry after deportation. The article points to two proposals that are realistic and would actually result in much larger numbers of deportations.
The first is to increase the deportation infrastructure, specifically the number of prosecutors and the number of BIA judges. BIA appeals go to regular federal judges, so we'd need more of those too. Without doing this, showy ICE raids of illegals does nothing to increase deportations.
Increasing the deportation infrastructure is something that could actually pass Congress. Indeed, there have been several moderate increases lately.
But the most promising possibility is something Trump could do via executive-branch regulation:This is why Rick Perry at DHS would be a disaster. His record in Texas is not supporting the rule of law, but of giving illegals in-state tuition and calling Mitt Romney heartless for disagreeing with him.Replies: @MEH 0910, @Jack Hanson, @Dave, From Oz
A Surge of Migrants Crossing Into Quebec Tests Canada’s Welcome
“Not OK”.
That was the language of pre-schoolers when they were first learning to use their words.
Pichai’s position is as follows:
1) There are no biological differences between men and women from an IT standpoint.
2) Pichai is CEO of Google and therefore ultimately responsible for hiring.
3) Google/Pichai has hired a workforce that is 80% male in its more techy areas.
4) It therefore follows that Pichai is a horrible misogynist and should be fired too.
Ya’ think?
Will someone tell me why I’m wrong to see a common theme w/r/t Jewish-run institutions like Google acting with a strong authoritarian hand against diversity heretics and other Jewish-run/derived systems like communism and Christianity’s similar stifling of wrongthink/heresy, not to mention the comparable characteristics that are present among Arabs/within Islam? It seems to me that this type of authoritarian way of running the show, pushing non-reality-based ideologies on others, and then punishing dissenters is behavior that is perhaps more prevalent in Semites than others, no?
Steve,
Great work on the biggest, non-nuclear story in the world right now. Will you have a chance to do a round-up post on the interesting developments at the IAAF championships? It’s far afield from SV but it’s interesting to see an Azeri/Turkish guy win the 200 m and a Norwegian dude win the 400 m hurdles. Link
Black make up 1% of tech roles at Goole... is it 0.4% rounded to 1%?
How many of these blacks are actually 25%, 50% or 75% white ancestry.
Steve Jobs was panicked at the lack of black engineers at Apple. It's universal, not Google specific.
But Charles Murray has been debunked right?
Another gender stereotype: why Google founder Sergey Brin ditched his 40+ yr old wife for a new 20-something girlfriend?
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite... I wonder why....Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Dave Pinsen, @Anonymous, @anonymous coward
Was he? I know of a black Carnegie Mellon CS alumnus who worked as an intern at Apple (and, presumably, wasn’t offered a permanent job, because he didn’t work there after). He was there when Steve Jobs was alive (he blogged about sitting behind Jobs during a cafeteria conversation).
https://urbanfaith.com/2011/10/steve-jobs-passion-for-diversity.html/
Clearly it was not lack of trying.
If they really want to strike a blow for Social Justice, Sundar, Susan and their fellow Googlypuffs should gather up all of these studies into a big pile in front of the Googleplatz and burn them, in a giant cleansing “Säuberung.”
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/10/16119910/trump-deportations-obama
Good news: the numbers of illegals caught at the border has dropped by about 50% under Trump. That means fewer are trying. Trump's rhetoric, even though he has not followed through on most of it, has had a powerful deterrent effect. If half all illegals get apprehended at the border, this implies that the new illegal population will fall by about 140,000 in 2017.
Bad news: the number of those already here getting deported each month has actually dropped under Trump. That is mostly because the easy deportations on the border have dropped so much.
I've called some of the immigration proposals vaporware, especially the really stupid ones to increase the already very heavy federal penalties for illegal entry after deportation. The article points to two proposals that are realistic and would actually result in much larger numbers of deportations.
The first is to increase the deportation infrastructure, specifically the number of prosecutors and the number of BIA judges. BIA appeals go to regular federal judges, so we'd need more of those too. Without doing this, showy ICE raids of illegals does nothing to increase deportations.
Increasing the deportation infrastructure is something that could actually pass Congress. Indeed, there have been several moderate increases lately.
But the most promising possibility is something Trump could do via executive-branch regulation:This is why Rick Perry at DHS would be a disaster. His record in Texas is not supporting the rule of law, but of giving illegals in-state tuition and calling Mitt Romney heartless for disagreeing with him.Replies: @MEH 0910, @Jack Hanson, @Dave, From Oz
No Lot, the reason that there are less getting deported is because the Trump Admin isnt calling VRs “deportations”. Now that they’re cutting that out, you see a similar drop in apps that you do in faux deportations.
10th Circuit is taking every 8 USC 1325 case that crosses its desk, as well as every 1326a1, b1, and b2 case. This was unthinkable in the Obama era.
That explains it. The weak Indian puppet was surrounded by women and Jews, like Obama, none could think for themselves, but together they re-enforced one another’s twisted views and became a pack of hyenas. They could’ve easily issued a statement saying “What Damore expressed was his personal opinion, which he is entitled to as an individual. It does not represent any kind of consensus at Google nor does it represent the opinion of Google management.” And that would’ve been the end of it. Instead it’s now turned into a major imbroglio and is making the entire Google management look like the ass clowns that they are.
Couldn’t have happened to a better company. These leftist hypocrite ass clowns got what they deserved.
And they've shown it to the entire world. There will definitely be some people on the Good White side saying, "wait a minute, I don't think I heard/read that correctly." They've overplayed their hand, and this will result in a public relations disaster that will burn slowly for years.
“Said one flatly: “He cannot spew his dubious biology arguments — you can find any study to justify any crazy notion — and not pay a price for it.””
Spew climate nonsense you be Algore.
Next time a female co-worker asks me to lift something heavy:
““While people may have a right to express their beliefs in public, that does not mean companies cannot take action when men are subjected to comments that perpetuate negative stereotypes about them based on their gender,” she wrote. “Every day, companies take action against employees who make unlawful statements about co-workers, or create hostile work environments.”
Interestingly, and importantly, Damore himself didn’t allow himself to get baited into a discussion of the biological implications of race:
https://www.wired.com/story/internal-messages-james-damore-google-memo?mbid=social_twitter
Damore’s approach is going to make it a lot harder for people to nail him and disappear him.
https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/895857802173968384Replies: @eah
Deloitte Thinks Diversity Groups Are Passé
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-19/deloitte-thinks-diversity-groups-are-passA follow up article: https://www.cebglobal.com/talentdaily/will-deloittes-new-di-strategy-increase-participation-from-allies/
Has anyone here seen the Harvard Business Review diversity and inclusion special issue from July-August 2016? Any comments?
https://www.cebglobal.com/talentdaily/the-harvard-diversity-review/
$600B of market cap to burn through. Best get started!
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/10/16119910/trump-deportations-obama
Good news: the numbers of illegals caught at the border has dropped by about 50% under Trump. That means fewer are trying. Trump's rhetoric, even though he has not followed through on most of it, has had a powerful deterrent effect. If half all illegals get apprehended at the border, this implies that the new illegal population will fall by about 140,000 in 2017.
Bad news: the number of those already here getting deported each month has actually dropped under Trump. That is mostly because the easy deportations on the border have dropped so much.
I've called some of the immigration proposals vaporware, especially the really stupid ones to increase the already very heavy federal penalties for illegal entry after deportation. The article points to two proposals that are realistic and would actually result in much larger numbers of deportations.
The first is to increase the deportation infrastructure, specifically the number of prosecutors and the number of BIA judges. BIA appeals go to regular federal judges, so we'd need more of those too. Without doing this, showy ICE raids of illegals does nothing to increase deportations.
Increasing the deportation infrastructure is something that could actually pass Congress. Indeed, there have been several moderate increases lately.
But the most promising possibility is something Trump could do via executive-branch regulation:This is why Rick Perry at DHS would be a disaster. His record in Texas is not supporting the rule of law, but of giving illegals in-state tuition and calling Mitt Romney heartless for disagreeing with him.Replies: @MEH 0910, @Jack Hanson, @Dave, From Oz
As I suggest everywhere this topic comes up: prosecute large-scale employers of illegal aliens under the RICO act. An orchard industry that relies on illegal labour almost certainly dabbles in immigration fraud: one of the specific crimes mentioned in the act. An industry that systemically from top to bottom relies on crime to operate, that could not continue with its current practices without criminal activity, is precisely what a “corrupt organization” *is*.
Start throwing the bosses of large, billion-dollar agricultural corporations in prison for racketeering. Oh, and have the local cops start going after people who hire illegal alien household servants, fry cooks, etc.
You don’t need new laws: you just need to start enforcing the laws you already have, with the goal that people will start – you know – obeying them. What a shame the USA has mostly destroyed its unions. A few teamsters fighting for their jobs would sort out the illegals.
The proposed harm here is hypothetical.
The harm visited by prohibiting such comments (and the facts they contain) is actual and provable harm against men.
Gentlemen, it is time to take the offensive together.
Yes — ‘. . . if we really want to change . . .’ is the turning point.
This is a clear signal that Google’s senior management has committed to bog-variety leftist utopia-building as their core mission.
It’s in notable contrast to their detached, negatively-stated original ‘Don’t be evil’ mantra.
source:
https://urbanfaith.com/2011/10/steve-jobs-passion-for-diversity.html/
Clearly it was not lack of trying.
Notice when they talk about free speech (i.e. free thought) now they don’t say,”speaking the truth,” they say, “saying what you want.” Always moving goalposts.
That and/or the therapeutic model.
Plenty of potential upside here dudes — click here to see why — and wait til he gets that Google settlement cash.
Damore’s memo was descriptive, not prescriptive.
He wasn’t saying ‘It should be this way’. He was saying ‘Why is it this way?’
And his memo tried to explain the current reality at Google and other high-tech companies where men dominate.
Since Brin and Page created a company where men dominate, it is they who should be canned. All Damore did was notice the reality and try to explain why.
Btw, I don’t see how feminism is morally feasible. When women take jobs from men, it means men cannot get married and have families. Women without jobs can marry. Men without jobs cannot.
When women lose jobs, they can still have families. When men lose jobs, they also lose families. Loss is greater. Since humans are primarily organisms, their main function is to sustain life and meaning. And that comes through family. So, denying men the right to family is a violation of organicist law.
So, women moving into workforce is a great violence on men.
Feminism will destroy the West, and in the end, non-feminist civilizations will survive and take over.
East Asia, part of the world that imitates the West the most, is also dying cuz it goes against organicist law.
While women should be allowed to work, men must be prioritized given the differences in sexual dynamics. True meaning comes from family. For women, loss of jobs can still mean having a family. For men, loss of jobs means losing family as well. That is beyond cruel. It is inhuman and anti-life.
There is no doubt West will eventually be wiped out by non feminist cultures. The upper and professional classes have no fight left in them and are dying out. More than likely you'll find the more highly educated whites welcoming these foreign invaders. The only ones who have some fight left are the lower classes who provide the workers and soldiers for country. Problem is they are universally detested by the white upper classes who want them eradicated forthwith.
In regards to feminism, it's a well known fact, that college educated women don't marry or have many children. The thing is women being very social conscious will not marry a less educated man or if they do it won't last long because she had contempt for such a mate. Men OTOH have no problem marrying a less educated woman from a lower class.
The other problem with college is that it saddles the woman with a six figure debt right the gate. And college is where most of the Marxist and feminism indoctrination takes place. At one this was the domain of cults like Hare Krishna and the Bagwhan - mind f**king kids into tools. Now days it's the job of tenured professors at Ivies that do it.
He’s ‘tweeting’ now.
‘and’, I think: isn’t the therapeutic model the individualist microcosm of the utopian macrocosm?
liberal progressive men say things like offensive, not ok and my favorite, ” that’s scary” all the time.
Liberal men aren’t gay, but neither are they real men. We need a new word for liberal White men. How about race traitor?
It’s plausible enough that someone with a training in biology would find the case for biologically based differences between men and women to be more convincing.
Sexual dimorphism is the default assumption across mammals, and in primates in particular. Such things as different preferences and behavior are pretty much universal across mammalian species.
Arguments that different races are, based on biology, different in cognitive ability must be based on less direct evidence, even if that evidence is, for the properly initiated, in fact even more powerful.
Not every species has various subspecies which display obviously different cognitive abilities.
I wonder why he wrote the memo? Was he in some sort of diversity committe charged with hiring and promoting more women and minorities? Does he have to work with incompetent women and do their work?
Maybe he’s retirement age and wants to go out with a bang.
I can’t imagine why.
Bloomberg’s Emily Chang brought up the “what if the memo was about race?” argument in her interview with Damore. Damore could have handled this one a bit better, but I guess this was his first non-friendly interview after the Molyneaux and Peterson ones.
He should have just said 'If it had been about race (instead of gender) it would have been similarly supported by facts and so I would defend it in the same way: #Fired4Truth'.
What is the starting point book to read on whether there are cognitive and behavioral differences between races?
https://www.amazon.com/Bell-Curve-Intelligence-Structure-Paperbacks/dp/0684824299
Typical. I brought up race/IQ data and the others went wild. 1. They thought this was my idea 2. Called it wild and far-fetched 3. Accused me of making up the numbers.
It occurred to me that the others in the discussion (mainly Millenials) have never heard of this and/or think it is all crazy fantasy stuff.
Sorry if this has been noted in one of the many ISteve posts of the last day or so, none of which I’ve read in detail, but i had an epiphany which is embarrassingly obvious in retrospect.[Edit: I see others pointing it out here]
With regard to the this-made-our-decision quote by the female CEO, “what if he’d said these things about blacks or hispanics?” I admit that it was a bit of a gotcha for me at first. Like, how would you rebut that in casual conversation around blacks or hispanics without the pointing out that it would still be every bit as true.
But, i was just thinking to myself just now that, well, he didn’t actually say it about blacks or hispanics, so .. so what? Then it hit me. What if his point had been that woman are more suited to breast feeding than men? And their retort was “what if he said that about blacks or hispanics?” You’d scrunch your face and say “huh?”. The biological differences between men and women are so obviously of a completely different type, or category, that that between whites and blacks/hispanics. One is called gender and it’s related to having completely different types of chromosomes, and its evolutionary history is on the order of billions of years. The other is called race and it’s a nebulous difference in family history going back on the order of 100K years.
It’s such a softball that it didn’t need the Lebron analogy.
FYI, Life is 4 billion years old; cellular life is a billion years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction#Origin_of_sexual_reproductionReplies: @JeremiahJohnbalaya
Wait, can just any old group use this argument. Can we substitute black, hispanic, or lgbtq for anyone as a test of whether it is acceptable? I’m doubtful.
They pretty much all do, but they are still billionaires.
https://twitter.com/Fired4Truth/status/895731392595742720Replies: @eah, @Dave Pinsen
He’s piling up followers at a record pace — “LOL” — #BestCareerMoveEver
There’s much ruin in a company. Google has several monopolies, it’s not clear market forces can dethrone them. Intel has been going down Google’s path for years and years. Google’s VP of diversity came from Intel.
I always thought it was started in her garage, and she was their landlord.
All kidding aside … Is CEO Susan Wojcicki behind the de-monetization of MAGA people on YouTube?
Since she appears to be the top SJW headhunter at Google/Alphabet (as per the Damore affair) it stands to reason that she has personally directed the defunding of YouTube sites by Milo, Cernovich, Infowars, etc and even those two black ladies from the Trump campaign!
Perhaps – and this seem pretty common among titans of today – it was a matter of Jobs being publicly panicked at the lack of Apple duskiness. Privately – and so honestly – perhaps he really didn’t give a damn. He was a major component putting computers in every home in the world. I find it easy to believe the travails of chronic whiners left him cold.
Liberal men aren't gay, but neither are they real men. We need a new word for liberal White men. How about race traitor?Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @Samuel Skinner, @Roderick Spode
I find it very hard to believe. Show me a video of a man saying “that’s offensive and not ok” or “that’s scary”. RuPaul doesn’t count.
I’d have to say The Bell Curve is the most accessible book that deals with the issue of IQ and race in particular, even though it confines its discussion of that issue to one chapter, and doesn’t draw a strong conclusion.
A more value-neutral and objective way of making your assertion would be women have a tendency to take things more personally than do men.
Whether this is good or not is removed from the statement. You obviously think it is bad, while whoever designed women must have thought it good, if it is indeed true as you assert.
That leads to two questions:
1) Upon what do you base your claim that women take things more personally than men?
2) Why is this bad? If it were bad, why would it be a pervasive trait of females assuming it does actually exist.
Plenty of studies show that women generally affiliate tribe oddly, they tend to consider other women to be their in-group more than anything else. Men do not affiliate by sex at all.Replies: @anonguy
Maybe he's retirement age and wants to go out with a bang.Replies: @JW, @res
It wasn’t retirement, he missed the 4 year vesting mark by 3 months.
I dunno about the not offered a permanent job. Maybe Apple wasn’t his first choice, it isn’t the end all be all. I’m sure he had tons of offers, Carnegie Mellon and all.
Uh, can I point out that there’s something dishonest about the bunch’a’ya anti-(((neocons))) who talked and talked and talked about the insanity of war and yet this isn’t the subject of 7 stories and 5,000 comments?
It started yesterday.
Fire and fury the likes of which the world has never seen before.
Whoa! The Hedge Head? He’s the best! Well… boom!… I’m triggered!
This is the text book:
Analogies are not a form of reasoning and cannot be used as part of a logical argument.
its evolutionary history is on the order of billions of years
FYI, Life is 4 billion years old; cellular life is a billion years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction#Origin_of_sexual_reproduction
I imagine Pichai talking to Damore sounds something like this…
FYI, Life is 4 billion years old; cellular life is a billion years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction#Origin_of_sexual_reproductionReplies: @JeremiahJohnbalaya
Go FYI yourself b/c “sexual reproduction first appeared by 1.2 billion years ago”
(whoops. “order of a billion years”, not “billions”. Lucky for me, “order of” gives you a leeway of almost a factor of 10 in either direction)
When women lose jobs, they can still have families. When men lose jobs, they also lose families. Loss is greater. Since humans are primarily organisms, their main function is to sustain life and meaning. And that comes through family. So, denying men the right to family is a violation of organicist law. So, women moving into workforce is a great violence on men.Feminism will destroy the West, and in the end, non-feminist civilizations will survive and take over.
East Asia, part of the world that imitates the West the most, is also dying cuz it goes against organicist law. While women should be allowed to work, men must be prioritized given the differences in sexual dynamics. True meaning comes from family. For women, loss of jobs can still mean having a family. For men, loss of jobs means losing family as well. That is beyond cruel. It is inhuman and anti-life.Replies: @Rod1963
All true.
There is no doubt West will eventually be wiped out by non feminist cultures. The upper and professional classes have no fight left in them and are dying out. More than likely you’ll find the more highly educated whites welcoming these foreign invaders. The only ones who have some fight left are the lower classes who provide the workers and soldiers for country. Problem is they are universally detested by the white upper classes who want them eradicated forthwith.
In regards to feminism, it’s a well known fact, that college educated women don’t marry or have many children. The thing is women being very social conscious will not marry a less educated man or if they do it won’t last long because she had contempt for such a mate. Men OTOH have no problem marrying a less educated woman from a lower class.
The other problem with college is that it saddles the woman with a six figure debt right the gate. And college is where most of the Marxist and feminism indoctrination takes place. At one this was the domain of cults like Hare Krishna and the Bagwhan – mind f**king kids into tools. Now days it’s the job of tenured professors at Ivies that do it.
Where’s the relief thread on Taylor Swift’s ASS!?
Let’s do a dissertation on the unbelievable firm young female ass that is now on public display–streetwalker style–on American sidewalks coast to coast… (social trend imported from late stage democracies in Euro-Med zone) and how this situation dovetails with the TS grabass courtroom drama.
What cannot be denied is that average American girls are putting their asses in our faces like never before, and simultaneously the professional showbiz bootyshakers asses are not allowed to be touched.
Q: Would TS drag Tom Brady into court for grabbing her ass? How about David Beckham? DiCaprio?
It’s clear: the flyover country DJ didn’t have high enough alpha male status to get away with that epic TS assgrab. The entire kerfuffle is a matter of status. Brad Pitt could’ve grabbed her ass ALL DAY LONG and received strong approval from both Taylor and her mother.
PS Elon Musk could have also gotten away with this horrible “crime”, because mega $$$ = super alpha status. And when super alphas attack, the smart pretty girls lay back and enjoy it. And they aren’t faking the orgasm!
Liberal men aren't gay, but neither are they real men. We need a new word for liberal White men. How about race traitor?Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @Samuel Skinner, @Roderick Spode
Shitlib works better.
Women love these words because ‘not OK’ refers to the violation of social norms (rather than what’s actually true).
Liberal men aren't gay, but neither are they real men. We need a new word for liberal White men. How about race traitor?Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @Samuel Skinner, @Roderick Spode
that’s two words
Google is run by an Indian-American, Sundar Pichai. The executive chairman of its parent company, Alphabet, is a German-American gentile named Eric Schmidt. The two Jewish co-founders serve below him as president and CEO, respectively.
https://twitter.com/Fired4Truth/status/895731392595742720Replies: @eah, @Dave Pinsen
That’s great work by the photographer.
If he did, he didn’t take any. When he wrote that, he was running his own business out of New Jersey selling t-shirts to tech startups and doing some web development.
Paul Graham is subtweeting about the James Damore affair.
He also tweeted a link to this post by Scott Aaronson which is obviously inspired by James Damore getting fired but doesn’t mention it at all and Scott warns he’ll delete comments related to it.
The Scott-Liz dialog (comments 101-106) is interesting. I wonder if Liz would have been baying for blood if Scott had been more explicit.Replies: @candid_observer, @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D
I don’t doubt you at all, just seems incredible to me that any CS grad of CMU wouldn’t have multiple job offers regardless of his race.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-scandal-of-engineering-visas-20160226-column.html
Granted, a CMU grad might have a lower chance of not securing employment. All the ones I've met have been brilliant. But perhaps not the best at talking themselves into jobs, being almost painfully shy.
This looks like an interesting summary of the relevant research.
Surprisingly readable. The red/blue color scheme is very helpful.
https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08/10/the-google-memo-what-does-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/
I do think the authors have some bias against the existence of sex differences. For example, consider these two statements considered positive and negative respectively:I think the strength of these two statements differs. Particularly interesting is that when I dig into the body of the paper I find:Which means that for the spatial test with the largest sex differences (Mental Rotations) the time effect is actually the opposite of what the "partial" statement in the abstract implies! Also notice that the title of this paper referred to "sex differences" as opposed to most of the others. In that web page as a whole there are 47 hits for "sex" and 107 hits for "gender".
Given my sense of the bias in this field I suspect close examination of the other references as relate to their abstracts would expose more issues like this, but I don't have the patience to do it.
When engaging with a field likely to have biases it is important to follow the chain of evidence all the way. Don't just look at the abstract, look at the full paper. And similarly when following the supporting references look at the full papers.
Grumbling aside, your link is the best referenced and one of the least biased takes on the Damore affair that I have seen. Thanks again! I think their conclusion is worth reproducing here in full:I do have to disagree with this from their first conclusion bullet: "Thus, the large gender gap in coding (and in tech in general) cannot be explained as resulting to any substantial degree from differences in ability between men and women."
I disagree because there are differences in means for math ability and given that math ability tends to be highly selected for in coding thus tail effects are important. See James Thompson's blog for more discussion of this.
And as far as "The one exception to this statement seems to be spatial abilities, such as the ability to rotate 3-dimensional objects in one’s mind. This ability may be relevant in some areas of engineering, but it’s not clear why it would matter for coding. " goes, see http://humantechnology.jyu.fi/articles/volume4/2008/jones-burnett.pdfPerhaps someone can inform Sean Stevens and Jonathan Haidt of that since they obviously did not do even a cursory search on the topic. And this was some excellent weasel wording: "it’s not clear why it would matter for coding."
P.S. OT, are you blue/green colorblind by chance (I don't think I am)? The color scheme appears as red/green to me (with the paper titles, etc. in blue providing a contrast) and the authors refer to it as red and green in the text.
Black make up 1% of tech roles at Goole... is it 0.4% rounded to 1%?
How many of these blacks are actually 25%, 50% or 75% white ancestry.
Steve Jobs was panicked at the lack of black engineers at Apple. It's universal, not Google specific.
But Charles Murray has been debunked right?
Another gender stereotype: why Google founder Sergey Brin ditched his 40+ yr old wife for a new 20-something girlfriend?
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite... I wonder why....Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Dave Pinsen, @Anonymous, @anonymous coward
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite… I wonder why….
Don’t tell Chrissie. She thinks she’s still a prize!
https://vimeo.com/12923066
He was learning how to stand
when I wore my first wedding band…
Yet another parallel between this event and the maomaoing at The Evergreen State College.
Here is TESC faculty luminary Naima Lowe, on November 9:
https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/895857802173968384Replies: @eah
Damore could have handled this one a bit better
He should have just said ‘If it had been about race (instead of gender) it would have been similarly supported by facts and so I would defend it in the same way: #Fired4Truth’.
Good idea.
https://twitter.com/nontolerantman/status/895908698182356993
There’s so much money to be made closing gaps! Can’t let James Damore ruin the party.
What about the “gender data” gap? Don’t worry, the United Nations Foundation is throwing money at it.
http://data2x.org/who-we-are/
Black make up 1% of tech roles at Goole... is it 0.4% rounded to 1%?
How many of these blacks are actually 25%, 50% or 75% white ancestry.
Steve Jobs was panicked at the lack of black engineers at Apple. It's universal, not Google specific.
But Charles Murray has been debunked right?
Another gender stereotype: why Google founder Sergey Brin ditched his 40+ yr old wife for a new 20-something girlfriend?
Is it because older men with money are attracted to young fertile female and vice-versa? You rarely see the opposite... I wonder why....Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Dave Pinsen, @Anonymous, @anonymous coward
“Rarely see the opposite”?? Practically every rich old female actress or singer has a young and fertile trophy husband.
OT, another one for the taboo reinforcement absurdity file:
CNN cuts ties with Jeffrey Lord over ‘Sieg Heil’ jibe
So a leftist partisan attack dog organisation gets to claim a “conservative” media scalp, and the stupidly, fanatically overblown Nazi/holocaust taboo that distorts and disfigures the societies of the modern US sphere gets reinforced yet again.
Call commies commies.
What is the Hindu Pinchai even doing in our America?
Answer:To enthusiastically vote the Historic Native Born White American Majority Working Class into a racial minority…this is really the way more fundamental point…
Over time, Google will pass into the hands of the Hindu…
I want the Nation I was born and raised in….back!!
pathetic conformists, only thing interesting about them is they are ultra wealthy. The same libs will go about “climate denialism”. Look at their denial of male-female differences in abilities tech and sciences.
In other words:
1. Boss’s sister-in-law/movie lady
2. HR lady
3. Press lady/spokeswoman.
How much more stereotyped can one get? Shouldn’t there be at least 50% men in these roles?
Irrelevant perhaps, but I can’t get entirely past the fact that the title of the article in Recode (whatever that is) is not just ungrammatical and inelegant, but is strikingly, glaringly, gratingly so.
How does someone come up with a title like that, and what does it say about how her mind works?
Just my two cents . . .
And that's what I would tell the public. NOT this nonsense about hurtful remarks, implying that women have fragile egos that need special care and coddling from upper management.Replies: @Pericles, @AndrewR
“Have you looked at the badges on our caps recently? … Are we the baddies?”
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/895892009063510016
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/895517563509026817
He also tweeted a link to this post by Scott Aaronson which is obviously inspired by James Damore getting fired but doesn't mention it at all and Scott warns he'll delete comments related to it.Replies: @Paco Wové, @res
Questioning the Ptolemaic model is hurtful and NOT OK
In the original German it’s “Rassenverrater”, so one word.
Whether this is good or not is removed from the statement. You obviously think it is bad, while whoever designed women must have thought it good, if it is indeed true as you assert.
That leads to two questions:
1) Upon what do you base your claim that women take things more personally than men?
2) Why is this bad? If it were bad, why would it be a pervasive trait of females assuming it does actually exist.Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bill, @whoever
Peter Frost in Evo and Proud studied this among others: essentially, “hysterical behavior” is pretty useful as a survival method to get more attention, and thus, more food when things are desperate. Its an useful measure, as selfish genetics go, but not for the tribe or group.
Plenty of studies show that women generally affiliate tribe oddly, they tend to consider other women to be their in-group more than anything else. Men do not affiliate by sex at all.
Hah! Perhaps they think their enemies rally to the banner of the rats’ anus.
Hey, that’s my shtick. We’ll know that we have an anti-illegal-immigration administration when the first C-suite guy goes to federal prison for a long time. And, by the way, if the RICO is giving campaign contributions to some Congressmen, isn’t that cause for some kind of extensive investigation of such Congressmen?
Whether this is good or not is removed from the statement. You obviously think it is bad, while whoever designed women must have thought it good, if it is indeed true as you assert.
That leads to two questions:
1) Upon what do you base your claim that women take things more personally than men?
2) Why is this bad? If it were bad, why would it be a pervasive trait of females assuming it does actually exist.Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bill, @whoever
This is an excellent example of why scientism is so toxic. Any idea can be protected via the endless deployment of strategic nihilism and the is/ought dichotomy. “I refute Berkeley thus” is a sensible answer to questions like this.
Plenty of studies show that women generally affiliate tribe oddly, they tend to consider other women to be their in-group more than anything else. Men do not affiliate by sex at all.Replies: @anonguy
Interesting point. IME, the complaints women have about men seem much more consistent than the complaints men have about women, suggesting a more unified front.
Whether the earth orbits the sun is a question to be determined by research, not church policy.
The difference between liberalism and Christianity is that the latter is not antagonistic toward rationality, but actually embraces it. As early as the 4thC Augustine was arguing that observation and reason should not defer to a literal interpretation of scripture. And of course, the great thinkers in physics were trying to discover God’s laws.
It started yesterday.
Fire and fury the likes of which the world has never seen before.
https://youtu.be/AHnFgN3CAU8
https://youtu.be/HJoQldVYB2MReplies: @San Fernando Curt
Try not to wet your panties. Trump’s gambit puts pressure on China to rein in it’s annoying little client to the South. North Korea is a chihuahua – bark big, bite lite. Since any hot war would explode on China’s patio, NK will be frozen out – if something happens to us, China’s economy will go 1929; we’re it’s biggest loan sucker. I’m glad the ers of suck-up foreign policy is over. For lack of a better term, revolution will do.
Charlie Munger, Berkshire Hathaway Vice-Chairman, has said that Google has the deepest “moat” in the world.
Time for the ol' comp sci joke: There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand statistics (normal distribution, standard deviation, kurtosis, skewness, mean, mode, r^2, p etc.) and those who don't.Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
Maybe so, but maybe they’ve been boosted by the Diversity initiatives that irk Damore.
It’s sort of well known in BigLaw that the diversity hires have a shelf life – very, very few become equity partners, and the best behaved ones go on to jobs within the firm like “director of minority recruiting” or “director of pro-bono services.” Their non-diversity hire peers get to do the heavy lifting to make up for the lost productivity of having an attorney without the requisite aptitude to do actual high level legal work.
The top rated comment on that Wired article had a link to an interesting Bloomberg article from a few weeks ago:
Deloitte Thinks Diversity Groups Are Passé
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-19/deloitte-thinks-diversity-groups-are-pass
A follow up article: https://www.cebglobal.com/talentdaily/will-deloittes-new-di-strategy-increase-participation-from-allies/
Has anyone here seen the Harvard Business Review diversity and inclusion special issue from July-August 2016? Any comments?
https://www.cebglobal.com/talentdaily/the-harvard-diversity-review/
Maybe he's retirement age and wants to go out with a bang.Replies: @JW, @res
If you listen to the interviews he was recently involved in some diversity summits. He was calling attention to what he saw as borderline illegal activities in Google’s hiring process. See this excerpt from his memo:
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/895892009063510016
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/895517563509026817
He also tweeted a link to this post by Scott Aaronson which is obviously inspired by James Damore getting fired but doesn't mention it at all and Scott warns he'll delete comments related to it.Replies: @Paco Wové, @res
That is an interesting and highly relevant post by Scott Aaronson. I was intrigued by the particular way in which he chose to censor this comment (e.g. not just flushing it):
I liked this comment (too long to include) relating things to McCarthyism: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3376#comment-1741493
The Scott-Liz dialog (comments 101-106) is interesting. I wonder if Liz would have been baying for blood if Scott had been more explicit.
What's the point of coming at the Damore issue only indirectly like that?
Of course there are circumstances in which its best not to tell the full truth, or even to lie outright. Kolgomorov, under Stalin, would be a good example. And of course this sort of issue goes back at least to Kant, who, quite absurdly, argued that it would not be permissible to lie even to save someone's life.
But what is even possibly the point of discussing the Kolgomorov case in Damore's circumstances? Where's Stalin, with his unaccountable capacity for maximum punishment? (Of course, in that analogy, isn't it more like Google management and our SJWs who come closer to possess that ability, not isolated, powerless Damore?)
Everything important about the Damore case is peculiar to the precise context of it: the potential for societal harm, in either direction, the importance of telling this particular truth, the likely inevitability of the truth coming out in the fullness of time. Why pretend that one can deal with the case while avoiding talking about its specific features?
Really, his posing of the problem, then deleting all specific comments is, again, stupid and perverse.Replies: @res
Reading between the lines, he is pretty much saying that we are living through a period that is not unlike the Soviet purges. That in itself is a pretty heavy duty thing to say to those that are in charge now. Compare that to what Pikachu said about how many wonderful messages of support he's gotten from Google employees, both those who are fully down with the program and those who want to kiss his butt just so he will leave them alone. Compare to those brownshirts and brown-nosers, Aaronson is a hero just for writing this much. I am not in favor of ideological shit tests on the right - everyone should do what they are comfortable doing, publicly or privately. If you want to do more, to set yourself on fire in front of the Googleplex or whatever, then bully for you but don't tell me what to do.Replies: @res
And that's what I would tell the public. NOT this nonsense about hurtful remarks, implying that women have fragile egos that need special care and coddling from upper management.Replies: @Pericles, @AndrewR
I hope you are never allowed any supervisory position ever.
Oops I meant to hit “LOL.” Webmaster, can we get an option to undo reactions?
Try hitting LOL now and see if it does what you want.Replies: @AndrewR
CNN cuts ties with Jeffrey Lord over 'Sieg Heil' jibeSo a leftist partisan attack dog organisation gets to claim a "conservative" media scalp, and the stupidly, fanatically overblown Nazi/holocaust taboo that distorts and disfigures the societies of the modern US sphere gets reinforced yet again.Replies: @AndrewR
I feel no sympathy for Lord or anyone else who calls leftists “Nazis” or racist whites “leftists.” DEMZ R DA REAL NAZIS.
Call commies commies.
That was the language of pre-schoolers when they were first learning to use their words.Replies: @StillCARealist
yeah, that’s what I was thinking. He’s talking to the employees like they’re children. That’s not OK.
The Scott-Liz dialog (comments 101-106) is interesting. I wonder if Liz would have been baying for blood if Scott had been more explicit.Replies: @candid_observer, @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D
I took a quick look at Aaronson’s post, and thought it just stupid and perverse.
What’s the point of coming at the Damore issue only indirectly like that?
Of course there are circumstances in which its best not to tell the full truth, or even to lie outright. Kolgomorov, under Stalin, would be a good example. And of course this sort of issue goes back at least to Kant, who, quite absurdly, argued that it would not be permissible to lie even to save someone’s life.
But what is even possibly the point of discussing the Kolgomorov case in Damore’s circumstances? Where’s Stalin, with his unaccountable capacity for maximum punishment? (Of course, in that analogy, isn’t it more like Google management and our SJWs who come closer to possess that ability, not isolated, powerless Damore?)
Everything important about the Damore case is peculiar to the precise context of it: the potential for societal harm, in either direction, the importance of telling this particular truth, the likely inevitability of the truth coming out in the fullness of time. Why pretend that one can deal with the case while avoiding talking about its specific features?
Really, his posing of the problem, then deleting all specific comments is, again, stupid and perverse.
Additional reasons I see for his approach:
- There is some chance of getting people to listen if the trigger is removed (though his cutesy comments alluding to Damore undermine this).
- It actually IMHO does raise many of the relevant issues. I think Scott is making the Google (and SJWs)/Stalin and Damore/Kolgomorov comparisons you desire.
In my ideal world he would say what he really thinks, but he is speaking more truth than 99% of the people in this conversation under their own names (we are both using pseudonyms!). It is hard for me to complain about that.
I am interested in talking about this further if you are. I respect your comments here and am surprised we have such divergent reactions to that piece.
Surprisingly readable. The red/blue color scheme is very helpful.
https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08/10/the-google-memo-what-does-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/Replies: @res
Thanks! That has an excellent collection of references and useful summaries for each. One issue is that I think the “summaries” are the abstracts and in my experience abstracts tend to be weighted to emphasize the more Narrative affirming conclusions (here that sex differences are minimal and decreasing over time as society becomes more equal).
I do think the authors have some bias against the existence of sex differences. For example, consider these two statements considered positive and negative respectively:
I think the strength of these two statements differs. Particularly interesting is that when I dig into the body of the paper I find:
Which means that for the spatial test with the largest sex differences (Mental Rotations) the time effect is actually the opposite of what the “partial” statement in the abstract implies! Also notice that the title of this paper referred to “sex differences” as opposed to most of the others. In that web page as a whole there are 47 hits for “sex” and 107 hits for “gender”.
Given my sense of the bias in this field I suspect close examination of the other references as relate to their abstracts would expose more issues like this, but I don’t have the patience to do it.
When engaging with a field likely to have biases it is important to follow the chain of evidence all the way. Don’t just look at the abstract, look at the full paper. And similarly when following the supporting references look at the full papers.
Grumbling aside, your link is the best referenced and one of the least biased takes on the Damore affair that I have seen. Thanks again! I think their conclusion is worth reproducing here in full:
I do have to disagree with this from their first conclusion bullet: “Thus, the large gender gap in coding (and in tech in general) cannot be explained as resulting to any substantial degree from differences in ability between men and women.”
I disagree because there are differences in means for math ability and given that math ability tends to be highly selected for in coding thus tail effects are important. See James Thompson’s blog for more discussion of this.
And as far as “The one exception to this statement seems to be spatial abilities, such as the ability to rotate 3-dimensional objects in one’s mind. This ability may be relevant in some areas of engineering, but it’s not clear why it would matter for coding. ” goes, see http://humantechnology.jyu.fi/articles/volume4/2008/jones-burnett.pdf
Perhaps someone can inform Sean Stevens and Jonathan Haidt of that since they obviously did not do even a cursory search on the topic. And this was some excellent weasel wording: “it’s not clear why it would matter for coding.”
P.S. OT, are you blue/green colorblind by chance (I don’t think I am)? The color scheme appears as red/green to me (with the paper titles, etc. in blue providing a contrast) and the authors refer to it as red and green in the text.
What's the point of coming at the Damore issue only indirectly like that?
Of course there are circumstances in which its best not to tell the full truth, or even to lie outright. Kolgomorov, under Stalin, would be a good example. And of course this sort of issue goes back at least to Kant, who, quite absurdly, argued that it would not be permissible to lie even to save someone's life.
But what is even possibly the point of discussing the Kolgomorov case in Damore's circumstances? Where's Stalin, with his unaccountable capacity for maximum punishment? (Of course, in that analogy, isn't it more like Google management and our SJWs who come closer to possess that ability, not isolated, powerless Damore?)
Everything important about the Damore case is peculiar to the precise context of it: the potential for societal harm, in either direction, the importance of telling this particular truth, the likely inevitability of the truth coming out in the fullness of time. Why pretend that one can deal with the case while avoiding talking about its specific features?
Really, his posing of the problem, then deleting all specific comments is, again, stupid and perverse.Replies: @res
To not get fired. Or go through the internet lynch mob ritual defamation routine again (he has experience with that!).
Did you note the redacted comment I quoted? I think the way in which he did that says a lot.
Additional reasons I see for his approach:
– There is some chance of getting people to listen if the trigger is removed (though his cutesy comments alluding to Damore undermine this).
– It actually IMHO does raise many of the relevant issues. I think Scott is making the Google (and SJWs)/Stalin and Damore/Kolgomorov comparisons you desire.
In my ideal world he would say what he really thinks, but he is speaking more truth than 99% of the people in this conversation under their own names (we are both using pseudonyms!). It is hard for me to complain about that.
I am interested in talking about this further if you are. I respect your comments here and am surprised we have such divergent reactions to that piece.
Whether this is good or not is removed from the statement. You obviously think it is bad, while whoever designed women must have thought it good, if it is indeed true as you assert.
That leads to two questions:
1) Upon what do you base your claim that women take things more personally than men?
2) Why is this bad? If it were bad, why would it be a pervasive trait of females assuming it does actually exist.Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bill, @whoever
I’d add that many men take things too personally, as well. You can see it every day in comment sections, where disagreements over the most trivial foolishness become snarling, insult-laden contests of will and quests for social dominance.
Yes. It’s a turning point. We all know Google is just another crappy company but until now one could sort of be carried along by the image of it being something special. They’ve killed that and killed it in the eyes of geek/nerd types who might have been supportive or worked there.
But who really gives the orders? The two guys who founded the company and retain a controlling interest or the German figurehead and the diversity window dressing?
I don’t disagree, but still I think this means that they are at or near their high water mark and the decline begins now. It might take 10 or 20 or 30 years to empty the vast reservoir but once the dam has been breached the outcome is inevitable. How many future Damores will interview elsewhere? How many dead weight SJW’s will seek to take his place? How long until some users start to notice the difference? At Mizzou the impact was felt in a matter of months.
There’s no need to read books, as it’s all plainly observable.
The Scott-Liz dialog (comments 101-106) is interesting. I wonder if Liz would have been baying for blood if Scott had been more explicit.Replies: @candid_observer, @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D
I also give Scott credit for publishing my comment (#146):
Women take everything. FIFY.
Wanna bet?
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-scandal-of-engineering-visas-20160226-column.html
Granted, a CMU grad might have a lower chance of not securing employment. All the ones I’ve met have been brilliant. But perhaps not the best at talking themselves into jobs, being almost painfully shy.
Last time I checked later actions overrode earlier actions. This was a change from the original functionality where a single commenter could have all of those tags active at once.
Try hitting LOL now and see if it does what you want.
Try hitting LOL now and see if it does what you want.Replies: @AndrewR
Fanx bruv
The Scott-Liz dialog (comments 101-106) is interesting. I wonder if Liz would have been baying for blood if Scott had been more explicit.Replies: @candid_observer, @Dave Pinsen, @Jack D
I no longer remember the details of the kerfuffle but didn’t Aaronson himself once get in big trouble with the PC Police for something that he said on his blog (that would have been innocuous in a sane society)? So once burned, twice shy. It’s true that in our society they don’t literally come and drag you away to the Gulag or torture you on the rack but what they do do is bad enough that I don’t want it for myself, so I don’t blame the man.
Reading between the lines, he is pretty much saying that we are living through a period that is not unlike the Soviet purges. That in itself is a pretty heavy duty thing to say to those that are in charge now. Compare that to what Pikachu said about how many wonderful messages of support he’s gotten from Google employees, both those who are fully down with the program and those who want to kiss his butt just so he will leave them alone. Compare to those brownshirts and brown-nosers, Aaronson is a hero just for writing this much. I am not in favor of ideological shit tests on the right – everyone should do what they are comfortable doing, publicly or privately. If you want to do more, to set yourself on fire in front of the Googleplex or whatever, then bully for you but don’t tell me what to do.
It will be interesting to see if Aaronson gets any blowback from what he wrote this time.
“Couldn’t have happened to a better company. These leftist hypocrite ass clowns got what they deserved”.
And they’ve shown it to the entire world. There will definitely be some people on the Good White side saying, “wait a minute, I don’t think I heard/read that correctly.” They’ve overplayed their hand, and this will result in a public relations disaster that will burn slowly for years.
I’ve already used up my Agree button or I would hit it twice for you.
DJT’s public perception as somewhat unhinged is helping here. China does not want a nuclear war on its borders, and it needs our markets more than we need them. That little moron in NK has outlived his usefulness to everybody; China should arrange him an accident and let the two Koreas re-unite peacefully ala Germany.
A lot of people will die in a Korean war but NK will cease to exist and be radioactive forever. The first thing we will do is drop PGMs on everywhere we think Dear Leader is. That should get their attention.
Let's do a dissertation on the unbelievable firm young female ass that is now on public display--streetwalker style--on American sidewalks coast to coast... (social trend imported from late stage democracies in Euro-Med zone) and how this situation dovetails with the TS grabass courtroom drama.
What cannot be denied is that average American girls are putting their asses in our faces like never before, and simultaneously the professional showbiz bootyshakers asses are not allowed to be touched.
Q: Would TS drag Tom Brady into court for grabbing her ass? How about David Beckham? DiCaprio?
It's clear: the flyover country DJ didn't have high enough alpha male status to get away with that epic TS assgrab. The entire kerfuffle is a matter of status. Brad Pitt could've grabbed her ass ALL DAY LONG and received strong approval from both Taylor and her mother.
PS Elon Musk could have also gotten away with this horrible "crime", because mega $$$ = super alpha status. And when super alphas attack, the smart pretty girls lay back and enjoy it. And they aren't faking the orgasm!Replies: @Father O'Hara
He didn’t do it IMHO.
Why all the anti-White male venom? Because White men are simply too higher IQ to engage in the domination rituals and highly aggressive physical personal behavior in men that White women crave; and so the excuses and ritual abasements before Muslims, Black men, etc. Duh.
TLDR: White women broke up with Beta Male Bob to get with Wife-Beater Ahmed. Who only hits them because he loves them and makes other men afraid. That's it. And that's public and private policy in government and corporations writ large. There is no end of ways in which White women are the natural and eternal enemy of White men. Which means the dominance bid by White men must go up marginally much higher than the competition.
Google will likely be nearly White male free in the engineering / tech dept in two years time, I'll bet. And will crater in that time as well, technically at least. I've switched to Bing; and I expect a lot of people to do so as well.Replies: @MBlanc46
You’ve probably over-egged the pudding by a tad, but there’s much to what you say. The hostility that white women have directed against white men for the past fifty years demonstrates beyond question that they despise us.
Absolutely, and not not just the ag biz. Start throwing the board members and c-suite occupiers into the slammer, not just the poor mopes in HR who actually sign the paper.
Reading between the lines, he is pretty much saying that we are living through a period that is not unlike the Soviet purges. That in itself is a pretty heavy duty thing to say to those that are in charge now. Compare that to what Pikachu said about how many wonderful messages of support he's gotten from Google employees, both those who are fully down with the program and those who want to kiss his butt just so he will leave them alone. Compare to those brownshirts and brown-nosers, Aaronson is a hero just for writing this much. I am not in favor of ideological shit tests on the right - everyone should do what they are comfortable doing, publicly or privately. If you want to do more, to set yourself on fire in front of the Googleplex or whatever, then bully for you but don't tell me what to do.Replies: @res
He did get in trouble, and IMHO it was even worse than the usual because he was attacked after posting something that was intensely personal. Amanda Marcotte had a “starring” role (searching for her name and Scott Aaronson’s will get more details). Here is Scott Alexander’s take for anyone who wants to revisit what happened: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/
It will be interesting to see if Aaronson gets any blowback from what he wrote this time.
“What if the memo said that biological differences amongst Black, Hispanic, or LGBTQ employees explained their underrepresentation in tech and leadership roles? Would some people still be discussing the merit of the memo’s arguments or would there be a universal call for swift action against its author?”
Only a progressive would posit that question. The rest of us would discuss the merit. If blacks are < 1% of Google employees, I would bet they're concentrated in HR and their diversity bureaucracy (as the women probably are). In the case of blacks, a combination of 85 average IQ and a standard deviation of only 10 IQ means that 3 standard deviations out is only 115 IQ. If blacks really were as smart as whites on average, as progressive orthodoxy claims, surely the billions of dollars we've spent on black-specific education programs trying to prove it would have borne fruit.
That's less than 1 in 100 blacks scraping by with the bare minimum in a engineering organization like Google, and they're not going to compare well to 130 IQ/2 standard deviation whites. Indeed, if you do the math, that's 15 130 IQ whites in the general population for every 115 IQ black. So yeah, I'd expect just about zero blacks in coding positions, which is exactly what I've seen in every company I've worked for. None in coding positions, all of the black engineering staff (rare as they are) are in IT.
No, you are an idiot. Probably you were waving your flag “U-S-A! U-S-A!” when Dubya started his idiotic war in Iraq. North Korea is not America’s business, it’s the Koreans’ business, and if the US doesn’t like a few Nork nukes (besides the hundreds of Chinese and thousands of Russian nukes) pointed at its cities, then they should just leave the peninsula, automatically making North Korea China’s problem.
1. Boss's sister-in-law/movie lady
2. HR lady
3. Press lady/spokeswoman. How much more stereotyped can one get? Shouldn't there be at least 50% men in these roles?Replies: @Clyde
Women dominating HR offices is one of the biggest corporate scams ever. And just plain stupid. You want to have a mix of clear thinking people selecting your new employees. And HR/Human Resources is another word I would pay millions to see get nuked out of existence. No way do Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Koreans, Indians hire people via offices that are 85%+ female.
North Korea is America’s business because we have allies in that region that we do lots of crucial business with. Taiwan, Japan, S Korea. We also need them as production alternatives to Mainland China. Taiwan, Japan, S Korea know how to produce on their native soil plus they know how to set up shop (factories) and produce in low cost Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam etc. Thailand produced hard drives being a good example.
Are you actually prepared to spill your (or your sons') blood so that your elites have alternative destinations to outsource your jobs?
That’s not America, that’s your elites. They could actually bring back the production to America.
Are you actually prepared to spill your (or your sons’) blood so that your elites have alternative destinations to outsource your jobs?
I get your Ron Paul, no-war libertarianism but we are in a tug of war with China and Russia. A game of regional and world dominance. If we withdraw fr NE Asia and chicken out they (China) take over. Nothing would delight the current Ming Dynasty more. The industrial and manufacturing supply chains are in Asia for many things America needs. You live in a small population European nation that does not have super power rivals. fwiw I have been in Pat Buchanan’s camp since 1990. On trade and immigration. I have seen what he fought against and predicted come true.
So the US is aggressively aiming to expand its empire to eventually include the entire world. Such policy could only result in a catastrophe.
The North Koreans would probably agree to the Russo-Chinese proposal to halt missile launches and nuclear tests in exchange for a stop of US-South Korean joint military exercises. But the US is unwilling to do that.
By the way your idea of preventing China from becoming the dominant power of Asia is futile. The Philippines and Vietnam have just recently bent the knee over the South China Sea territorial disputes, where China is disregarding any reasonable interpretation of international law.Replies: @Clyde
The Russians asked years ago the US to delimit spheres of influence. The US and Western politicians in general have ever since not only flat out denied Russia’s rights to such a sphere of influence, but claimed that such spheres of influence were obsolete. In essence, they declared the whole world to be a US sphere of influence, where the US had a right to meddle in any country in the world (including Russia and China, in both of which the not too secret aim of the US regime is a regime change), whereas countries like Russia or China never had such rights. To believe that either Russia or China would accept such a state of affairs is outright idiocy.
So the US is aggressively aiming to expand its empire to eventually include the entire world. Such policy could only result in a catastrophe.
The North Koreans would probably agree to the Russo-Chinese proposal to halt missile launches and nuclear tests in exchange for a stop of US-South Korean joint military exercises. But the US is unwilling to do that.
By the way your idea of preventing China from becoming the dominant power of Asia is futile. The Philippines and Vietnam have just recently bent the knee over the South China Sea territorial disputes, where China is disregarding any reasonable interpretation of international law.
So the US is aggressively aiming to expand its empire to eventually include the entire world. Such policy could only result in a catastrophe.
The North Koreans would probably agree to the Russo-Chinese proposal to halt missile launches and nuclear tests in exchange for a stop of US-South Korean joint military exercises. But the US is unwilling to do that.
By the way your idea of preventing China from becoming the dominant power of Asia is futile. The Philippines and Vietnam have just recently bent the knee over the South China Sea territorial disputes, where China is disregarding any reasonable interpretation of international law.Replies: @Clyde
I don’t mind Putin and Russia, our policies against them have been warped. Blame Hillary, the Democrat party and the State Department who hate a bold, high-T, unapologetic white leader. I do mind the Chinese. I don’t want to see a Chinese dominated world. There are 1.6 billion of them. And their leaders are not stupid or cucks.
Well, if you don’t like a Chinese dominated world, you should work on strengthening Europe and the US. If you cannot stop third world immigration to these regions, then a Chinese dominated world is all but inevitable anyway. You shouldn’t start wars in China’s backyard to stop that from happening, this is just extremely stupid. Basically because your country is in terminal decline (because of mass immigration, also a bit because of the idiotic LGBTQ etc. idiocy, and affirmative action), you now seem to be prepared to provoke a nuclear war to arrest the relative decline of your country. Sad!
US foreign policy under Obama/Hillary/Kerry was terminally stupid. They destroyed Libya - Syria which lead to the Muslim and sub-Saharan African invasion of Europe. It is better under Trump plus he has cut illegal immigration in half just by taking office and scaring them away.So how is your nation doing? In your humble opinion of course.Replies: @reiner Tor
The USA is a large and easy target for you and others because we are a super power that feels compelled to act same as USSR and China. Nature abhors a vacuum thus China and Russia will love to fill what we vacate. Same for Iran. Iran’s long term goal is to turn the Sunni Arab nations into Shiite Arab nations.
US foreign policy under Obama/Hillary/Kerry was terminally stupid. They destroyed Libya – Syria which lead to the Muslim and sub-Saharan African invasion of Europe. It is better under Trump plus he has cut illegal immigration in half just by taking office and scaring them away.
So how is your nation doing? In your humble opinion of course.
US foreign policy under Obama/Hillary/Kerry was terminally stupid. They destroyed Libya - Syria which lead to the Muslim and sub-Saharan African invasion of Europe. It is better under Trump plus he has cut illegal immigration in half just by taking office and scaring them away.So how is your nation doing? In your humble opinion of course.Replies: @reiner Tor
And their even longer term goal is World Domination.
Very badly. It’s a small nation, having lost most of its territory and glory in the past century (and some even earlier, our heyday was sometime in the High and Late Middle Ages perhaps 1000-1526, when we were a mid-sized Central European power), with the same terminal decline as yours.
Remain in light my friend, you know your history and where the bodies (literally) are buried ….. I say this based on your posts here at unz