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Vice: Caesar Wasn't White, He Was Pink
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One of the weirder self-exploding gotchas of recent years is the Donna Zuckerberg-pushed campaign to declare that Ancient Greeks and Romans have been racially “whitewashed” because most of the paint applied to their statues has flaked off over the millennia. For example,

Okay, but we have lots of statues of Julius Caesar.

And Julius Caesar really did look a little like John Gielgud, which is probably why Gielgud took the Julius Caesar role in the 1970 flop film version of Shakespeare’s play:

(The other most reliable bust of Julius Caesar is more I talian-looking.)

Mark Antony wasn’t as elongated as Charlton Heston. Judging from this sculpture from a century after his time, he looked more like, I dunno, Dandy Don Meredith on 1970s Monday Night Football broadcasts:

Richard Burton played Brutus in the 1970 movie. Earlier, Burton played Marc Antony opposite Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra, which was a pretty good match facially:

Brutus is portrayed as having a small jawline in this sculpture:

But he didn’t really look like Idris Elba either.

And Augustus Caesar

did look like a cross between Roddy McDowall, who played him in the 1962 movie Cleopatra,

and Donna Zuckerberg’s brother Mark, who worships Augustus:

Here’s the Vatican Museums’ best guess at the original paint job on the famous Augustus of Prima Porta statue:

Suetonius wrote that Augustus had hair the color of “straw.”

It sounds like these Classics “scholars” are assuming that “Race is just skin deep” and making fools of themselves.

It would be helpful if there were a forum of retired Hollywood casting agents where academics could run their crank theories of what famous dead people looked like past actual experts who could tell you what current movie stars the old-timers ethnically resembled in their bone structure.

 
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  1. Flip says:

    So did ancient Greeks and Romans look like modern Greeks and Italians or was there population replacement?

  2. J.Ross says:

    Salvini is out (but we will surely hear more of him).
    Dissatisfied with “hate speech” laws, the European Parliament is moving to criminalize something it calls “migration speech.”
    There’s a “documentary” of a Bay Area stoner video-interviewing his nonwhite friends about how they feel the white man has kept them down. It’s titled Why Don’t We Murder More White People, and if you criticize it while mentioning the title you will get in trouble with social media for advocating violence (but they won’t).
    The funniest thing about Zuckerberg’s history erasure efforts is that no nonwhites care about this stuff.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @guest
    , @Svigor
    , @Bill Jones
  3. I love how this exact story pops up every 6-7 months. That terrible AWFL Samantha Bee had a whole segment about this in April.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  4. OMG, they made Augustus a ginger?

    Ya know, in a way he reminds me of this guy ….

    • Replies: @fish
  5. A couple of nice looking jewish lads (Douglas and Curtis) played viking half-brothers in The Vikings (1958). Of course, the Anglo-saxons were the nasties.

    • Replies: @Tlotsi
    , @Mr. Anon
    , @dr kill
  6. dearieme says:

    It sounds like these Classics “scholars” are … making fools of themselves.

    Probably not fools in the eyes of the fools they’re trying to impress.

  7. anon[323] • Disclaimer says:
    @Flip

    Aaaaand here we go again

  8. Anon[148] • Disclaimer says:

    Donna Z to whites: “Stop being proud of your past! You stole everything and accomplished nothing”. “Im just trying to help” (lower your self esteem so you miscenegate yourselves out of existence, be depressive, etc).

  9. R.G. Camara says: • Website

    There’s a meme now: If Vice says one thing, the opposite is probably true.

    Shorter version: “If Vice says to miss it, you should definitely watch it.”

    • Replies: @Kronos
  10. Anonymous[192] • Disclaimer says:

    Given Caesar was a mass-killer, isn’t it PC to insist he was very white?

    Colorize 20th century Europe:

    Hitler – Mexican
    Mussolini – Black
    Franco – Hindu
    Churchill – Chinese
    Stalin – Bushman
    De Gaulle – American Indian

    Btw, black-and-white movies made film scholars white-wash movie history. Bogart looks white becausehe was in a b/w movie. He was peach.

  11. Altai says:

    So if Ceasar wasn’t white, does that mean we’ll be getting some Teen Vogue articles on why the conquest of those stale, pale Gauls and attendant slaughter of one third of the population and enslavement of another third was actually pretty woke.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  12. Richard S says:

    run your crank theories of what famous people looked like past actual experts who could tell you what current movie stars they ethnically resembled in their bone structure.

    Ok now I know what I want to be when I grow up..

    You feel closer to your ancestors when you can appreciate just how physically and spiritually similar they were to us today.

    No one tries to reimagine Chinese history in this way, the Chinese have too much dignity and pride in their heritage to tolerate it. Look at the faces of the “Terracotta Army”, recognisably contemporary Sinic types from 23 centuries ago, and tell me there’s no such thing as race..

    The sheer endurance of hereditary racial traits is what makes them such a fascinating field of study.

  13. Altai says:

    The real question is, what shade of the Carbury’s chocolate ‘diversity bar’ was he.

    Interestingly, few people have been talking about how this was a Cadbury’s India endeavour to celebrate ‘Unity Day’ and not from the UK. 4000 years later and India still needs a ‘Unity Day’.

  14. Anon7 says:
    @Flip

    “From the middle of the third to the end of the second centuries B.C., the adult male population was estimated to have risen from about 200,000 to 400,000 individuals. Those numbers, however, don’t jibe with censuses organized by the first emperor Augustus in the first centuries B.C. and A.D., which showed a population that had increased to about 4 million to 5 million males.

    While the granting of citizenship to allies on the Italian peninsula accounts for some of the increase, there is still an estimated unexplained doubling or tripling in the Roman population before the first Augustan census in 28 B.C. Just what accounts for that increase is a matter of intense debate.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/9732-ancient-rome-real-population-revealed.html

    Sounds like a severe case of open borders to me…

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @T.Chris
  15. syonredux says:

    Given Caesar was a mass-killer, isn’t it PC to insist he was very white?

    Killing Gauls is PC.

  16. KDeRosa says:

    Wasn’t Caesar famously bald (as in male pattern baldness bald)? Seems the second bust may have taken some liberties.

  17. @Anonymous

    Well we’ll always have Christopher Columbus

  18. ChrisZ says:

    This “whitewashed antiquity” argument doesn’t belong in the merely “weird” category; it’s positively idiotic. It’s not even true that the “received” vision of ancient figures was naively based on white marble statues. The bronze bust of Junius Brutus (ancestor of the conspirator against Caesar) was one of countless black-colored sculptures encountered by Renaissance and Enlightenment scholars. No serious critic ever imagined there was a simple correspondence between the color of the artistic medium and the color of the person depicted.

    ***

    Image of Capitoline Brutus:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Brutus

  19. syonredux says:

    Yeah, White Supremacist bigots! Betcha didn’t know that the Greeks and Romans were People of Color:

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
  20. syonredux says:
    @Flip

    So did ancient Greeks and Romans look like modern Greeks and Italians or was there population replacement?

    Replacement? No. There’s been a certain degree of admixture (e.g., modern Greeks have a good amount of Slavic genes), but the populations are substantially the same.

    • Replies: @istevefan
  21. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Flip

    Peter Frost argued recently that the ancient Greeks post-Aristotle and Romans were not very intelligent, though his argument seems quite tenuous:

    “Classical antiquity was a low point of human intelligence”

    https://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2019/08/classical-antiquity-was-low-point-of.html

    This finding has been nuanced by a second study, using a sample of ancient DNA that was much larger and only from ancient Greece. It found that mean intelligence was initially high in ancient Greece and then began to decline after the end of the Mycenaean period in 1100 BC (Woodley of Menie et al. 2019). It looks like intelligence was at first strongly advantageous as humans adapted to increasing social complexity: farming, sedentism, literacy … Then something made it much less advantageous.

    Mean intelligence was therefore lower during Roman times in comparison both to Greece in earlier periods and to Europe in later periods.

  22. JimB says:

    I dunno. If you don’t get a proper education in the classics and science, an IQ of 130-150 actually doesn’t seem all that impressive. You just end up talking to much and annoying everyone around you.

  23. @Flip

    Obviously population replacement. Everyone knows ancient Greeks and Romans (and Britons and Egyptians) were black.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  24. Hillbob says:
    @Anon

    Oh cmon. Cant you folks on both sides stop this nonsense? It is overbearing and boorish. Dont we as a species have enough to contend with? Example, nuclear war?

  25. anon[420] • Disclaimer says:

    Donna Zuckerberg and Sarah Bond. Hmm, what’s the pattern here?

    [MORE]

    Oh yeah…

    Every. Single. Time.

  26. Jack D says:

    Augustus Caesar = Putin with more hair.

  27. @Anonymous

    Stalin – Bushman

    I know this may be the conventional view, but it’s not accurate. Stalin was actually Andamanese.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  28. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Blond hair was originally associated with prostitutes in ancient Rome, and prostitutes were legally required to have blond hair through dyeing or wigs:

    https://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/11/hair-dye-and-wigs-in-ancient-rome.html

    In ancient Rome, blond hair was initially considered to be a symbol of a prostitute, and these women were required to bleach their hair blond or wear blond wigs. After slave girls were acquired from Scandinavia and Germany, noblewomen began to wear more wigs made from their hair, and the stigma attached to blond hair diminished.

    Roman prostitutes were carefully organized. They were licensed, taxed, and actually required by law to wear blonde hair. The third wife of the Emperor Claudius, the wild nymphomaniac Messalina, was so excited by the idea of sudden, brutal sex with strangers that she would sneak out at night clad in a whore’s wig and prowl the city. So violent was her lovemaking that it is rumoured she frequently dislodged her blonde hairpiece, returning to the royal precincts in all too recognizable condition.

    Other Roman ladies of fashion were soon imitating her, and the lawmakers were impotent to stem the trend. Their blonde-wig-whoring law was ruined, but the element of wickedness and abandon by now associated with blondness was to survive down the centuries, repeatedly re-surfacing as an opposing strand in contrast to the image of fair-haired virginal innocence.

    Hair dyes were popular in ancient Rome, and historians have found more than 100 different recipes that the Romans used for bleaching or dying hair. Early Romans preferred dark hair, and at one time, blond hair was the mark of a prostitute. Light hair became fashionable after Greek culture reached Italy and the Roman legionnaires began bringing back fair-haired slaves from Gaul. Women, and some men, applied bleaching agents to their hair and then exposed it to the sun to achieve a golden or red color. Wealthier people could afford to sprinkle actual gold dust on their hair to create a blond look, as did the ancient Phoenicians. Another way to achieve a lighter shade was to cover the hair with flower pollen and the crushed petals of yellow-colored flowers. When harsh bleaching agents caused hair loss, Roman women resorted to wigs made from the hair of blond slaves.

  29. It’s interesting how accurate visual representation collapsed after the empire adopted Christianity.

    The same sort of thing happened with modern art. Something to do with a society no longer believing in itself or its roots.

  30. It would be helpful if there were a forum of retired Hollywood casting agents…who could tell you what current movie stars they ethnically resembled in their bone structure.

    “Ghengis Khan? I know…how about John Wayne”

  31. So if Caesar hadn’t been a victim of mass homicide all by his lonesome, he’d eventually have died of skin cancer?

    Why is Donna Zuckerburg so so bitter? Her brother might pass for a Roman if you chopped off his head but the rest of him has very little resemblance to an ancient warrior. Sis, on the other hand, mostly resembles Sappho.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  32. So it’s settled then. Italians aren’t white.

  33. the retcon initiative is relentless.

    Caeser, Alexander Hamilton, and finally, in 2050, George HW Bush, the darkest negro to ever hold office. WASPs were always multi colored, multi ethnic people and are incorrectly portrayed in portraits and photography.

    • Replies: @I Have Scinde
  34. Of course, these are all YT lies….

    Perhaps little sis will finally get rid of white man’s “colonization of consciousness” & present us with the right stuff, which already is here:

    http://realhistoryww.com/

    Welcome to Real History World Wide

    Germany – History of the Black Holy Roman Empire:

    NEW! The History of North Africa

    Black Mediterranean History, via Coin and Pottery

  35. Tusculum portrait

    The Tusculum portrait was excavated…in 1825…it was not recognised as a bust of Caesar until…1940.

    .

    THE CHIARAMONTI CAESAR (Cat. 713) Bust

    This head of Caesar was sold to the Vatican Museums by the sculptor Vincenzo Pacetti in 1804.

    .

    Augustus of Prima Porta

    The statue was discovered on April 20, 1863

    .

    Arles bust

    …was discovered in September–October 2007 in the Rhone River

    1825…1804…1863…2007
    Just sayin’

  36. Kronos says:
    @R.G. Camara

    Do you think Vice had a peak year it terms of relevant/factual news?

    Might be cool to see a graph of stuff before the 2013 “Great Awokining” singularity. Which news outlets plunged first and which ones held out to the end.

    I remember a Political Science Professor around 2011 complaining about writers being purged at the NYT. (I’m sure it was before the 2012 Presidential election.) those that advocated traditional Democratic Party economic policies.

    Now everything is acceptable as long as it’s NOT that.

  37. @Anon

    “Delete, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she with kvetching lips.

  38. @syonredux

    Angry Phoenician Med NN Taleb BTFO — will have to concede ancient Greek and Roman glory to the Bleached/Nordic Supremacy.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/new-yorker-take-that-racists-greek-statues-werent-white-they-were-pink/

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @OP
  39. syonredux says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    To borrow a phrase from George Costanza, Taleb has a pinkish hue…..

  40. @miss marple

    Actually, Zuck looks like a Greek slave-tutor.

  41. Tlotsi says:
    @Ancient Briton

    Well, the Anglo-Saxons were, and are, pretty nasty.

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
  42. So the ancient authors who describe Ceasar as “white-skinned and fair-haired” were just running a scam to hide everyone important was a Nubian?

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
  43. guest says:

    Who were these scholars “whitewashing” ancient white people? I think we’re supposed to assume they’re Lothrop Stoddard and Madison Grant, or something. But they’re just a bunch of lefties like Mz. Zuckerberg and the Vice Gang. Hollywood especially likes making ancient Rome look as clean and spare as an operating room. Or at least they used to. I suppose they dirtied it up in Gladiator and HBO’s Rome.

    Aside from the fact that color only makes them look more white, the stupidest thing about this is that everyone already knows.

  44. guest says:
    @J.Ross

    No minutes don’t care (except the chosen nonwhites to whom she belongs). But the fellow-scholars over whom they seek to steamroll might.

  45. Gielgud and McDowall were queer. Liz even let Roddy photograph her topless, which she didn’t do for just anyone (straight).

    Perhaps they should have been playing later emperors.

  46. fnn says:
    @Hillbob

    Haven’t the Democrats and the Woke made it clear they want war with Russia? The main reason to vote for Trump, despite all the disappointments.

  47. @TelfoedJohn

    Stalin was actually Andamanese.

    How many Sentinelese does the Orlando Sentinel have on staff? I see none here:

    So, like Cleveland and Atlanta in baseball, and Washington and Kansas City in football, they are using an unauthorized mascot. Shame on them!

    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
  48. guest says:

    For what it’s worth, Heston played Antony in that movie. Jason Robards was Brutus. He didn’t have to be as handsome.

    Octavian fell to Richard Chamberlain, who was immeasurably prettier than Markus Zuckerbergus.

    • LOL: fish
  49. Kronos says:
    @syonredux

    I don’t think he’s seen Middle East sun in a while. He’s looks darker in this one though.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @bored identity
  50. fish says:
    @The Alarmist

    Hey…….why bring Pete Buttigieg into this?

  51. Meanwhile, on the eve of September 3. 2019, just a friendly reminder that Fiddy Million was a small price to pay to live in the free and prosperous United Khaganates of Weimerica :

    The Secret Persuader:
    How brilliant British spymaster Sir William Stephenson, who invented 007’s martini, used 21st century spin and fake news to lure America into World War 2

    “…In a campaign that was decades ahead of its time, Stephenson recruited a secret army of 1,000 agents, analysts, journalists and campaigners to feed a steady drip of false news into the American media…”

    They manipulated polls to misrepresent public opinion, subsidised protest groups to take to the streets, produced convincing forgeries, harassed opponents from the America First campaign who vowed to keep the USA out of the conflict, and even persuaded President Franklin D. Roosevelt to tacitly back the operation.

    Today it is often forgotten that the majority of Americans were deeply opposed to joining the war.

    Shortly after the Dunkirk evacuation in June 1940, a poll suggested that just eight per cent of US citizens wanted to stand up to Germany.

    Yet within 18 months there had been a seismic shift. In late 1941, even before the Pearl Harbor attack, more than two-thirds of Americans had changed their minds and decided it was now time for the US to fight the Nazis. Stephenson, who arrived in New York on June 21, 1940, played a vital role in this shift.

    Stephenson’s task was to open up a channel of communication with the FBI. As it turned out, the two men warmed to each other so well that it was decided Stephenson – who would later acquire the nickname Intrepid – should run all MI6 operations in the US.

    It was becoming increasingly clear in Westminster and Whitehall that with much of Europe falling to the Nazis, we were becoming more dependent than ever on supplies from the United States. Furthermore, there was a growing concern that without the backing of the American people, the flow of US supplies might slow down or stop, and that this could leave Britain unable to fight.

    There needed to be a campaign of influence to boost the British cause in America. Why not give the job to the new MI6 man in New York?

    On April 23, 1941, a woman strode down the middle of New York’s Eighth Avenue towards a crowd of men. She was carrying a sign calling for the United States to enter the war. Just behind her came a like-minded crowd, several thousand strong.

    In front of them, blocking their way, were 15,000 supporters of America First, the anti-war organisation backed by Charles Lindbergh, the aviation pioneer who had been the first person to fly solo across the Atlantic.

    The charismatic Lindbergh was about to make one of his many tub-thumping speeches against US entry into the war at the Manhattan Center. His reasoning, widely shared in America, was based on isolationism – the principle that the US should stay out of all foreign wars unless they spread to the Americas.

    At the time, very few Americans saw their country as a superpower. Fewer still in this nation of immigrants from across Europe saw Britain as a natural ally.

    However, President Roosevelt understood the risk Hitler posed. He knew the American public was overwhelmingly opposed to war, but came up with increasingly creative ways of helping the British war effort, including Lend-Lease, in which the Allies were supplied with food, warships and other weaponry in return for leases on army and naval bases in Allied territory.

    Outside the Manhattan Center, a huge crowd gathered. Some were pro-Nazi far-Right activists. Others were America First isolationists shouting ‘We want Lindy!’ before singing The Star-Spangled Banner.

    The female protester pressed on, undaunted by shouts of ‘Get out of here or we’ll kill you!’ One man ran at her and punched her in the face, knocking her to the ground.

    Then it began. Both sides ripped into each other. The street became a violent blur.

    In the background, Lindbergh’s speech was broadcast over the loudspeakers, but the protesters had done their job. Reports in the next day’s papers focused on the violence, with most articles also listing the different interventionist groups involved in the march and what they had to say about Lindbergh and America First.

    Some of the activists used very similar language, almost as if they were reading from the same script. As it happened, some of them were.

    Stephenson had instructed British agents to infiltrate the American pressure groups, pushing for intervention in the war.

    These agents were to influence these groups from the inside, and to secretly co-ordinate them so they attacked the same targets at the same time – including asking awkward questions in the press about Lindbergh’s links to Berlin.

    The agents would also ensure that the pro-war activists were never short of money.

    With a new sense of purpose and vitality, the campaign to join the war had been galvanised.

    By June 1941, Stephenson had also set up an office dedicated to spreading false, distorted or inaccurate stories.

    His fake news factory was so big and so busy, releasing an average of 20 different stories a day, that he registered it as a legitimate press agency with the cover name British And Overseas Features. Some stories came from London, while others were produced in-house.

    The propaganda included reports that the Sicilian Mafia were taking on the Fascists; that the Germans were running out of men; that ersatz morphine was causing thousands of deaths in the German army; and that Nazi generals were spying on behalf of the Soviets.

    They also took a more imaginative method of spreading the message using what today would be called ‘influencers’.

    Eric Maschwitz, the British songwriter behind the hit A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square, was one of Stephenson’s officers.

    Over time, Stephenson’s tactics became still more cunning. He decided to forge a letter by Major Elias Belmonte, Bolivia’s military attache in Berlin and a fervent pro-Nazi, outlining a planned Nazi coup in the Latin American country.

    For this task he turned to Maschwitz, who was not only a writer but a gifted forger.

    Maschwitz carefully altered the keys on a typewriter to produce a letter that appeared to have been typed on a German machine. Nobody who saw the document, including Roosevelt and Hoover, appears to have doubted its authenticity. When it was published, the American public was outraged.

    The customised typewriter was thrown into the East River.

    Maschwitz was then dispatched to Toronto to set up a dedicated forgery section and create his most extraordinary work: a Nazi map showing what they intended to do with South and Central America – including a plan to abolish all religion.

    Roosevelt gave his most provocative and angriest speech since the start of the war as a result of the documents. But did he have any reason to suspect they could be British forgeries? Declassified cables from Stephenson to his superiors in London reveal that British ‘operations of any importance directed against isolationist groups had been approved by President Roosevelt beforehand’.

    It’s scarcely believable that Roosevelt thought these documents were genuine, but he needed incidents that might make the USA enter the war and was willing to do whatever he could to make ‘the right things’ happen.

    Towards the end of 1941, Stephenson employed one final tactic, arguably more effective than any other.

    He employed polling company Market Analysts to gauge public opinion about the Americans joining the war. They made sure the wording of each question steered the respondent towards particular answers. The order in which the questions were asked mattered, as did the emphasis pollsters gave to each one. Thus, the researchers found that 92 per cent of their sample ‘favoured America’s entry into the war against Germany’.

    Meanwhile, the reputation of Lindbergh had become toxic as a result of the infamous speech he gave in Des Moines, Iowa, on September 11, 1941, in which he suggested Jews were pushing the US to enter a war that was not in the national interest. It was widely labelled as anti-Semitic.

    America, it seemed, was finally ready.”

    (…)

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7415137/How-British-spymaster-used-21st-century-spin-fake-news-lure-America-World-War-2.html

    • Replies: @Blubb
    , @Anonymous
  52. istevefan says:

    Caesar Wasn’t White, He Was Pink

    I hear that gammon has become a popular pejorative for bad Whites in the UK in reference to their pink skin tone. So does this mean Caesar would have been called a gammon in contemporary UK?

  53. @syonredux

    Ahhh, but is he “white” in a Classical European sense? He looks like a lumpy, swarthy, round-faced souk-haggler (NTTAWWT).

    It’s all about the lighting:

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @BB753
  54. istevefan says:
    @syonredux

    Let’s look at the US and even modern Europe for an example. It has not even been 300 years since the founding of the USA, and we are close to having over half the population becoming unrecognizable to the Founders. This without any invasion and conquest by a foreign power, or without any famine or plague.

    Greece has been invaded and conquered multiple times. It has endured long occupations. It sits at the crossroads of Europe, Asia and North Africa. It must have gotten a lot of foot traffic over the centuries in addition to the conquests. Additionally it got the importation of foreigners that seems to come along with world domination.

    I just don’t see how the modern Greeks can be all that related to the ancient ones given they have had about 8 times the period of time it has taken for the US to be demographically turned upside down.

    And what we’ve seen in just the past 20 years has probably diluted the existing population of Greece with multitudes from Africa and Pakistan, etc. I would not be surprised if 10 percent of their population are recent migrants. If this just happened in 20 years, how can we expect that nothing like this has happened in the past 20 centuries?

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Svigor
  55. i sincerely doubt the classical artists were that inept painting them – – they probably painted them more like Spanish polychrome :

    https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nga.gov%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fngaweb%2Ffeatures%2Fslideshows%2Fspanish-polychrome-sculpture%2Fpolychrome_detail.jpg&f=1

    • Agree: Vinteuil
    • Replies: @Dube
  56. syonredux says:
    @Kronos

    Gotta work on that tan……Maybe he should start using a tanning bed…..

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Kronos
  57. We laugh and make fun, but that woman is an academic, and this topic is objective enough that she is being dishonest. She is lying about her field of research. Terrible.

  58. syonredux says:
    @istevefan

    Some things to bear in mind:

    pre-modern cities are population sinks: Immigrants are typically drawn to urban centers…..and urban populations in the pre-modern era did not experience organic growth.The country-side is the population reservoir. For a concrete example of this, note how the demographic footprint of the Roman Empire is practically non-existent.

    2. Slaves ( a significant chunk of the foreign er population) have very low reproductive rates….

    If you want to look at the data, Razib has a lot of posts about the Greeks.

    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/greeks/

    • Replies: @Logan
  59. unit472 says:

    The paintings and frescoes uncovered in Pompeii and Herculaneum did not fade or chip off and they seem to show ancient Italians were whiter than Sophia Loren, nothing against Sophia, but population replacement is real and happens pretty fast.

    I was just looking at Wikipaedia info on the Bahamas. The first census in 1722 showed 74% of the population was European. Today 4.7% is. What happened? Well the American Revolution brought an influx of white American loyalists from the South and their slaves. Then the Royal Navy needed someplace to put the slaves they ‘freed’ from slave ships and the Bahamas had room. Then, as always, there comes a point where white flight begins. Interesting, given Hurricane Dorian, the Abacos Islands are the last redoubt of the original white population where they account for 40% of the population.

    Also of interest is that Haitians now account for 20% of the Bahamas population and efforts are being made to deport the most recent arrivals. They maybe black-er but they ain’t ‘brothers’.

    • Replies: @Bubba
  60. Enough of this “statues were painted” meme.

    Statues that were painted bear traces of this paint, even after millenia of being outside in the weather.

    None of the classical statuary seems to have even a speck of paint.

    As a side note, try to find a single photo of a “Greek statue” that doesn’t have “Roman copy of lost Greek original” somewhere in the fine print.

    • Replies: @snorlax
  61. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    …. wait what ?

  62. Logan says:
    @syonredux

    Slaves ( a significant chunk of the foreigner population) have very low reproductive rates….

    Not always. Very nearly uniquely in the history of slavery, black slaves in America had a late 18th, early 19th century population explosion of the same magnitude as that of the free white population.

    Meanwhile, in the Caribbean, slaves died so fast they had a hell of a time importing them fast enough to replace them. To be sure, the white population there died off about as quickly.

    Don’t know about Brazil. More slaves went there than anywhere else, and there are now a LOT of Afro-Brazilians.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  63. syonredux says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Hey, I’m just sayin’ that the playa has to work at the swarthy Levantine game. Buy a tanning-bed. Start dicatin’ those big-brain books while floating in the pool under the noon-day sun. If all else fails, start usin’ bronzer:

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  64. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    oh shit…@ isteve’s second nemisis after podhoretz…

    It should be said this guy blew out massively in trying to time volatility.

    # failed trader

    PS quasi interesting commenter on social science,WRITE SOMETHING AND SEND IT OUT FOR CRITICISM. failed academic.

  65. OP says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    I wish he would end that tiresome “Pan-Med” argument he has going on. It doesn’t matter how we look, we, especially we Spanish, do not cluster with Levantines and North Africans. Believe it or not, we cluster much closer to other Europeans than they.

    We are also European, so why is he denying our heritage? What’s with the scare quotes? How are we “something different” if we have the exact same components that make up other Europeans? Do Levantines have WHG/BellBeaker in any significant numbers? No, they don’t, but we do. We are Southern *European*, always have been; always will be.

    He can look at any genetic map and put it into his pipe and smoke it.

  66. @Reg Cæsar

    So, like Cleveland and Atlanta in baseball, and Washington and Kansas City in football, they are using an unauthorized mascot.

    Not at all! There are plenty of Indians on the Cleveland Indians. Look at a picture of Carlos Carrasco.

  67. Kronos says:
    @syonredux

    I think he has a rule, don’t partake in consuming food and/or activities that haven’t at least been tested for 1000-3000(?) years on humans.

    It’s actually pretty good advice.

    Tea: Good

    Fish: Depends but good

    Sugar: Bad and with some further bad stuff still in debate.

  68. What have the Romans ever done for us?

    • Replies: @Bubba
  69. Bubba says:
    @unit472

    And to the west I don’t know if Freeport in Grand Bahama will still be around when Dorian starts moving again. Those poor folks have been getting pounded for 18 hours straight with 140+ MPH winds since Dorian stopped moving and getting flooded directly from the north.

  70. @Flip

    Little know fact, they were actually orange:

    • LOL: Ozymandias
    • Replies: @Sean
  71. Bubba says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    Now since you mentioned it, here’s the obligatory video…

  72. snorlax says:
    @Farrellageneity

    The originals were bronze and were at some point melted down for their metal. For that reason (also Muslims and to a lesser extent Christians destroying them for religious reasons) there are almost no surviving bronze or metal sculptures from Classical Antiquity.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Anonymous
  73. Dansereau says:

    Off Topic, but interesting that within the same species there can be different brains. Seems like a dangerous thing to discuss.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/different-dog-breeds-have-different-brains-scientists-1837744793/amp

  74. syonredux says:
    @Logan

    Slaves ( a significant chunk of the foreigner population) have very low reproductive rates….

    Not always. Very nearly uniquely in the history of slavery, black slaves in America had a late 18th, early 19th century population explosion of the same magnitude as that of the free white population.

    Yeah, I should have made it clear that I was referring to pre-modern slavery.

  75. syonredux says:
    @snorlax

    The originals were bronze and were at some point melted down for their metal. There are almost no surviving bronze or metal sculptures from Classical Antiquity.

    Precious few:

    • Replies: @Anon
  76. @Anonymous

    bored identity strongly believes that Generalissimo Franco was Jewish:

    Hindus look more like this:

  77. Steve, you should check out Carnival Row on Amazon. The idea is an alternate history post WWI with fae folk (Critch) fleeing their homeland after Britain lost against Germany.

    While Orlando Bloom does a good job, the amount of social commentary in the episode and a quarter I watched was staggering.

    – Trump populist stand in
    – Serial killer preying on Critch
    – Critch portrayed as second class but good folk (imagine how the media portrays rapefugees)
    – Setting up storyline where blonde English flower falls for super duper black crotch

    Could have been good but the script telling you how to think is so heavy handed it’s unwatchable.

  78. Sean says:

    Emperor Caracalla is my favourite Ancient Roman physog,

    In Caracalla’s reign there was a paradox, ‘the lowest man is worth more’.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    , @syonredux
  79. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    That’s the thing: he doesn’t have to work at it. He’s a living caricature of the obnoxious Levantine. And he self-owns himself constantly with his delusional ignorance or dishonesty:

  80. njguy73 says:
    @Altai

    When will Neapolitan ice cream be renamed “Unity”?

  81. Svigor says:


    This is all pretty speculative because 1 the distance between the actual guy and the sculpture and 2 the distance between the sculpture and anything human, but…

    Skin aside, that guy wouldn’t look at all out of place in England, IMO.

  82. Svigor says:
    @Sean

    I mean this guy wouldn’t look out of place in Harlin County. The small mouths…

  83. Kronos says:
    @Houston Texican

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=original+british+people&atb=v174-1&iax=images&ia=images

    They actually might have been. But killed off by the Aryans 4000+ years ago.

    • Replies: @Meneldil
    , @Jaakko Raipala
  84. Svigor says:
    @J.Ross

    Only if you think Jews are white, which they aren’t (just ax ’em; g**gle search will correct the error of your ways).

    Edit: on that Cadbury bar:

    It’s not easy to pay professional photographers to make your candy look good and still wind up with candy that looks like shit, but diversity helped Cabury do it anyway.

    Congrats, diversity.

  85. @Kronos

    Enchanté, Monsieur Taleb !

    bored identity strongly believes that this, with definitely too much skin in the game, revealing mug (seriously, what happened to brocade and jacquards, silk and satins cravats?) was part of Nassim’s casting photo shoot for Munich*,

    *Word on the street is that Spielberg said: ” You had me at Nicholas.”

    • Replies: @Kronos
  86. Svigor says:
    @istevefan

    Seems like a lot of projection in your thinking. Sure, it’s possible. It’s also very possible that the current American/Western surrender is entirely dependent on mass-media indoctrination, and ancient peoples were a lot more hardass about this stuff.

    As critters who want to survive are.

    How much non-black introgression has there been into sub-Saharan Africa? Blacks are almost entirely incompetent, and yet…

    Let’s just say, I’ve read about quite a few invasions that had very little in the way of lasting genetic impact…

  87. Sean says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    Mao, Castro or Gaddafi; in all times and places those who achieve supreme power assume the mantle of the Orange Emperor: Maximus Sextus.

  88. Wait a minute – didn’t the Greeks and Romans have slaves? They MUST have been white, because People of Melanin would NEVER do that!

    https://face2faceafrica.com/article/slavery-africa-today

  89. in all times and places those who achieve supreme power assume the mantle of the Orange Emperor: Maximus Sextus.

    And often fritter it away on Maximum Sex.

  90. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Nobody knows what Julius Caesar looks like. Statues are not good proxies for how someone from the Ancient times looked for several reasons: they are many of them for each character, whch tend to contradict each other, statues are made of marble which is white, so they often give the idea of the person being whiter than they actually were, and eye and hair color are often not depicted. The only thing that you can gauge from sculptures are facial features and bone structures. And even these are not good proxies because they contradict each other. Ancient aritocrats often had statues made of them that made them look much more handsome, masculine and imponent than they actually were.

    The only description that we have of Julius Caesar’s physical appearance was given by Plutarch in his “Compared Lives”, where he does the biography of both Julius and Alexander, the two most iconic figures of the Ancient world – and remain to this day pretty much unmatched less alone surpassed as Great Men.

    Plutarch describes Julius Caesar as a tall, thin man with pale skin and very large black eyes. People often remarked about his eyes, which were unusually large for an adult(adults have smaller eyes than children relative to the size of the face). They were also very dark(niger) and revealed great vivacity and intelligence. Julius Caesar’s mother, Aurelia Cota, was the most beautiful woman in Rome when she was young, and one of the most beautiful in the known World. She had a bony face with protruding cheekbones, sharp angles and perfect symmetry, and her son inherited her facial structure. Caesar also had the famous Roman nose, which was common among aristocrats of very old blood, and not very common among northern Europeans. So to imagine what Julius Caesar looked like, imagine a tall man with a pale complexions, high cheekbones, very large black eyes and an Armenian nose and you have a picture of what the Great Man of History looked like. He was described as extremely striking-looking, and the only man to ever embody what a Patrician was supposed to look like.

    Most of the descriptions about Julus Caesar focused on his pesonality and character, which were both unusal and very interesting. He walked fast, talked fast and thought even faster. Highly energic, he had however an affable demeanour which he used to charm people into doing his bidding. People remarked often on his extraordinary cognitive abilities. For instance, when he became commander-in-chief of the entire military, he knew the full name and rank of all the 5,000 centurions of the 30+ legions that he commanded. He could look at several maps and in one glance memorize the entire topography of the terrains that the map showed. A child prodigy, at the age of 5 he was writing poems in both Latin and Greek; at 12, he was considered one of Rome’s greatest legal scholars. He could also speak over 40 dialects of Celt and Germanic. When confronted, both in the political and military arenas, he would go often straight to the jugular, often destroying the entire hour-long arguments of his opponents with a single sentence or two. In battles, he would deny all his opponents strengths, encircle them, make them fall into traps and allowing his opponents to hang themselves. In the battle of Farsalus, for instance, he beat Pompey by setting his camp in a way that would force Pompey to fight him with the rising Sun at their faces while Caesar’s armies would have full sight. In Alesia, he beat the Gaullish army led by Vercingetorix, which was literally 10 X larger than his own, with engineering. He had his man dig ditches that precluded Vercingetorix from receving reinforcements. He then built palisades to trap Venrcingetorix in the city top, starved the Gauls forcing them to a desperate asasault. But unknown to the Gauls, he had hidden traps with escavated pits with sharp spikes on beneath, sending over 200,000 Gauls to their death. He beat an army 10 X larger without even fighting. That takes military genius to a whole other level.

    Despite being a man with a thin bodybuild, and given to fits of epilepsy and respiratory problems, he was extraordinarilly physically brave. He won the Corona Civica, the most important Roman military condecoration of the time, when he was only 21 years old, for having saved four cohorts of legionnaries while commanding less than 200 men. Then, there was that famous episode with the pirates. When he was still in his twenties, he was kidnapped by Cilician pirates, famous for their cruelty. The pirates demanded a ransom in gold of 40 talents, a small fortune. Caeasar replied with his famous self-esteem that was too little and they should ask for at least twice as much!. He was at the time still a nobody and asking for more than 40 talents in random for a youth, even one from the Iulii, the most aristocratic house in Rome, was unthinkable. But the pirates complied. Caesar warned them to their face that they would get payed, but wouldn’t live to enjoy the money. The pirates laughed at him. While still under captivity, he red the pirates some of the poems that he liked to write to pass the time, and they mocked him for his intellectual inclinations. Caesar became enraged and told that:”Scum! You are nothing but scum! I would hunt you down as soon as you release them, I will capture you and have all of you crucified.” And he did exactly that. To one of the pirates that had been nice to him, he conceded the grace of having h9is throat slit before being crucified. To the others, he left them to suffer until their last breath rotting in the Mediterranean sun.

    Julius Caeasar was also notorious for his exuberant sexuality and even more exeburant sense of Self. He has often been described as bisexual, but such classifications are not accurate for the ancient World. While he certainly had sex with both men and women, it is extremely unlikely that he took the passive role witbh men. That is because these rumors often enraged him, and he had multiple affairs with women. That is, most likely he was the active partner in sex with male slaves and youths that he seduced. The ancient Romans had a strong prejudice against males who took the role of a woman with other men during sex. One of the worst insults you could bestow on a man in ancient Rome was to call him a “fellator”. I don’t think I need to explain what this means.

    His sense of Self was even more exeburant. He considered himself to a descendant of Venus, and thus a demi-god. That is because the Iulli were descended from Ascanius who was rumored to be the son of Venus. As his accomplishments became more and more over-the-top, his arrogance and colossal egotism became even greater. He would often talk about himself in the third person, because he considered blasphemy to talk about a “god”(himself) in the first person.

    Julis Caesar was considered by Nietzsche to be the archetype of his Overman, the man who is vastly superior at almost everything with no flaws. But he did have one flaw though, that would cost him his life: despite his extraordinary tact and people skills, he misculaculated the degree to which human beings can be ungrateful. Among his killers, were nothing but men that he had, at one point or another, been saved from certain death by Caesar, pardoned for having foughrt against him, or turned into milliionaires by just siding with Caesar politically when Caesar had done all the hard work. The less gifted but far more callous and cynical Sulla died in a drinking binge by his own hands, while Caesar was killed by men that he either saved from death or pardoned for having tried to kill him. Sulla simply killed all his enemies and died on his own terms, while Caesar chose mercy and payed the price for it. This mistake is more amazing even due to the fact that he was an exceptional judge of character and had never been fooled or outwitted by anyone ever(not even a single time).

  91. syonredux says:
    @Sean

    Lucius Verus had amazing hair:

    • Replies: @Sean
  92. @Anonymous

    In Robert Harris’s trilogy about Cicero, in the first novel, Cicero’s career goes up up up because he’s smarter than everybody else in Rome. In the second novel, Cicero is barely hanging on because Julius Caesar is just plain better than him at the statesman game.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  93. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    Nobody knows what Julius Caesar looks like. Statues are not good proxies for how someone from the Ancient times looked for several reasons: they are many of them for each character, whch tend to contradict each other, statues are made of marble which is white, so they often give the idea of the person being whiter than they actually were, and eye and hair color are often not depicted. The only thing that you can gauge from sculptures are facial features and bone structures. And even these are not good proxies because they contradict each other. Ancient aritocrats often had statues made of them that made them look much more handsome, masculine and imponent than they actually were.

    Sure we do. Coins and statues give us a a decent sense of his appearance. And here’s Suetonius’ description:

    It is said that he was tall, of a fair complexion, round limbed, rather full faced, with eyes black and piercing; and that he enjoyed excellent health, except towards the close of his life, when he was subject to sudden fainting-fits, and disturbance in his sleep. He was likewise twice seized with the falling sickness while engaged in active service. He was so nice in the care of his person, that he not only kept the hair of his head closely cut and had his face smoothly shaved, but even caused the hair on other parts of the body to be plucked out by the roots, a practice for which some persons rallied him. His baldness gave him much uneasiness, having often found himself upon that account exposed to the jibes of his enemies. He therefore used to bring forward the hair from the crown of his head; and of all the honours conferred upon him by the senate and people, there was none which he either accepted or used with greater pleasure, than the right of wearing constantly a laurel crown. It is said that he was particular in his dress. For he used the Latus Clavus with fringes about the wrists, and always had it girded about him, but rather loosely. This circumstance gave origin to the expression of Sylla, who often advised the nobles to beware of “the ill-girt boy.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  94. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    statues are made of marble which is white, so they often give the idea of the person being whiter than they actually were,

    Unless they’re bronze, in which they look darker than they actually were:

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @BB753
  95. @Anonymous

    “Ancient aritocrats often had statues made of them that made them look much more handsome, masculine and imponent than they actually were.”

    And this made them look Whiter?

  96. Mr. Anon says:
    @Ancient Briton

    Douglas could pull it off. He presumably had some slavic ancestry, which is close enough. A lot of slavs have some viking ancestry. But Curtis couldn’t – he looked too mediteranean. And that accent – pure Brooklyn.

    The Vikings was an entertaining movie, but I like this one better:

    The Long Ships

    with Richard Widmark and Russ Tamblyn (Rif from West Side Story) as Vikings.

    • Replies: @Felix Krull
    , @Anon
  97. @Hillbob

    Don’t we as a species have enough to contend with? Example, nuclear war?

    Not this year, no.

    Counterinsurgency

  98. Sean says:
    @syonredux

    Probably just means he was not balding, and unlike like Caesar had no need to cross the Rubicon and seize supreme power in order to be able to parade around in a laurel wreath toupee.

  99. El Dato says:
    @Holofernes

    It’s psychological warfare every single day.

    Also OT: Crazy on parade.

    Game creator’s suicide after feminist Zoe Quinn accuses him of abuse shows peril of Twitter trials: From cult hero to dead in five days

    The accompanying image from ComicCon seems to be the Behavioral Sink in full action.

  100. @TelfoedJohn

    It’s interesting how accurate visual representation collapsed after the empire adopted Christianity.

    That’s usually attributed to the rise of institutions over individual talent. The old school Roman Senators were unflinching realists, whatever else they were, and individualists to boot. They funded s school called “verism”, as sort of “Warts and All” school, as shown in Wikipedia’s article [1]. Last time I visited (years back) the NYC Metropolitan Museum of Art had some of these satues on display.

    As power shifted from individuals to institutions (and Roman Emperors developed the ability to make the previously powerful Senators commit suicide with just a suggestion) and statues became the equivalent of mass produced political posters (rather like the pictures of Stalin) , individuals hid behind classical forms and themes lest they be reported as rivals to the Emperor, and the Emperor became more of a perfect abstraction, at least in his statues).

    You can see similar trends if you look at the ancient body armor section of the NY Metropolitan Museum of Art. The Cretan body armor has concentric circles on its front, insignia for some organization. Classical Greek body armor has artificial muscle outlines, an advertisement for the person wearing the armor.

    Any way, that’s how I see it.

    And this “Christianity ruined everything” theme — people who say that, in the midst of the ruins of Christianity and pretty much everything that was based on it, are simply identifying themselves as responsible for the general ruin. It’s getting annoying, and they don’t represent power anymore.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verism

    2] http://www.unz.com/isteve/vice-caesar-wasnt-white-he-was-pink/

  101. El Dato says:
    @Anonymous

    We have those people in finance nowadays.

    He could look at several maps and in one glance memorize the entire topography of the terrains that the map showed.

    Homo sapiens doesn’t even have enough bandwidth between the eyes and the brain to make this physically possible.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Keypusher
  102. Anonymous[423] • Disclaimer says:

    Arles statue of caesar is awesome! It depicts the world’s most aggressive jerk boy. Born pugilist. The guy who killed the Republic without a second thought.

    The Arles likeness makes you understand why it took a MOB of assassins to group-stab Caesar.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  103. eah says:

    This kind of obvious, dumb propaganda — Prof Sarah Bond is also responsible for turning her work, however otherwise legitimate (albeit mostly useless in the “workforce” sense), into a propaganda vehicle — does not and will not work.

    • Replies: @eah
  104. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:

    My impression has been that Jay Caspian Kang is not an idiot. But he sort of comes off as an idiot in the video. Upon a second viewing I noticed that the editing is quite abrupt around all his appearances, almost clipping off the end of words, as if the video editor was cherry picking short snippets that follow the narrative.

  105. eah says:
    @eah

    false ideas of European superiority & cultural inheritance

    She uses “supremacy” when maligning talking about Whites politically (see her Twitter timeline) today; she uses “superiority” in an attempt to impugn the motives of people who are more interested in the preservation of European culture and heritage.

    Of course if one is looking for evidence of the “superiority” of Europe’s “cultural inheritance”, you don’t have to look very hard at all — which is a real problem for people like Sarah Bond, and the reason she and her ilk sink to publishing/packaging their work as such crude propaganda.

    “Whites have never built anything” — Palace of Versailles

    • Replies: @eah
  106. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    In Robert Harris’s trilogy about Cicero …

    That is really a great read. When Harris seemed to drop the project after the second installment I was crestfallen, but he eventually birthed the final volume.

    Harris has a new one coming out in November, some sort of dark thriller set in 15th century England.

    Roman Polanski’s adaptation of Harris’s Dreyfus Affair book is set for release at the end of this month. The reviews seem to mostly be about Polanski and how the film is some big roman a clef about his rape case, so I stopped reading them.

    Polanski earlier adapted Harris’s Ghost, which took the place of a planned Polanski adaptation of Harris’s book about Pompeii. I really would liked to have seen that one. The lead character works for the aqueduct, and Roman aqueducts fascinate me. The writers strike killed the Pompeii movie.

    Some vintage Polanski:

  107. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    No, they don’t. Coins and statues do not accurately represent skin, eye or hair color. They do not accurately represent features as the sheer amount of details to the human face makes it almost impossible to represent on marble. You know what is a good depiction of what a human looks like? A photograph. There were no photgraphic cameras during Julius Caesar’s times.

    As for Suetonius description, that is a description based on second-hand accounts. It is no better than Plutarch’s account. In fact, Plutarch’s is better because Suetonius is far more general and focuses more on his grooming. What we do know is that he was tall, fair, with large black eyes and that he almost certainly had the famous Roman nose. I say certainly because pretty much all the statues of Caeaar, despite contradicting each other on almost everything, show him with that nose. So it is a good guess that he had that nose.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @syonredux
  108. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    The Republic was long dead. Caesar actually saved Rome by making it to transition between Republic to Empire without it collapsing.

    As for his depiction, Julius Caesar looked nothing like. There is no indication that he looked like a bodybuilder or oger-looking boxer. He was tall, fair, with black eyes, high cheek bones and an adunc nose. Nothing like this shows.

  109. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Which is exactly why we can’t use statues to gauge how someone in antiquity look. So you are actually agreeing with me. Thanks for playing.

  110. @Altai

    Indian civilization is 4000 years old but not the country. A distinction lost on many – intelligent and fools alike.

  111. @Mr. Anon

    …The Long Ships…

    I haven’t seen the movie, but the book is the best battleax & longship-yarn on the market.

  112. BB753 says:
    @syonredux

    “We wuz kangz n’ sheeit!”

  113. @Anonymous

    “Given Caesar was a mass-killer, isn’t it PC to insist he was very white?
    Given that Caesar is one of the greatest men in western history I can live with the very dubious claim of “mass killer”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  114. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Cicero was a brilliant individual: jurist who rivaled Hortensius, an epicurist an highly knowledgeable about all schools of philosophy, great prose stylist and arguably the greatest orator in history(as in “ever”). His Catilinarians and Meditations are studied to this day, and even now offer invaluable insight into human motivations, and are masterclasses of political science. Cicero’s IQ(SD=15) has been put in the range of 160’s-170, which is pretty accurate estimate given the variety of his intellectual strengths and the level that he displayed them.

    But yes, Julius Caesar ran laps around Cicero, often made him contradict himself publicly, used his own puns against him, outmaneuvered him consistently in games of political manipulation, was an even better prose stylist(arguably greatest prose stylist ever as a narrator), was an even better lawyer and jurist. and had gifts as a leader, tactician and strategist that Cicero could only dream off. And in terms of character, Caesar was a fighter with the heart of a champion, while Cicero was borderline cowardly. The only area that Cicero was better than Julius Caesar was an orator. Cicero is perhaps the greatest orator of all times in any civilization. But even then, Caesar was a close second to him and could at least hold his own with Cicero to some degree. And at everything else other than public speaking, Caesar was so superior as to be incomparable.

    It’s a scary thought hat Cicero was super-smart, and yet Caesar made him look like an idiot often. It puts in perspective what a genius Caesar was. There was the famous story about how, during his first Consulship, when Caesar was only a praetor, Cicero executed Roman citizens without trial for treason(“Lex Maestras De Republica Defendenda”). This enraged Caesar, as he considfered outrageous that a New Man, one who didn’t have even one Consul among his ancestors, could create out of thin air a legal expedient to execute Roman citizens that “supposed” were a threat to the Republic. So Julius Caesar presented himself in the forum to gratuitously defend the families of the men that had been executed against Cicero. When Cicero learned that Caesar wzas going to be the families’ lawyer, he became despaired and fainted. Cicero was a brilliant lawyer, but he knew he stood no chance going tit for tat against Caesar, who at the age of 12 was already consulted by legal scholars on matters of law, especially laws concerning affairs of state. So Cicero invented an emergency in Naples, because Consuls could not be put on trail for any crimes during mergencies. So he fled all to not have to face the Patriarch of the Iulii in a legal trial because he knew he would get cruhsed,

    Julius Caesar could hold his own as an orator against arguably the greatest orator of all times, and public speaking is all that Cicero had on Caesar. Caesar was far, far, far superior at everything else. In any given area, he was good enough to at least hold his own against the greatest ever in that area, and he was equally talented in many other areas as well. This shows just how *massively* gifted Julius Caesar was. He was literally five standard deviations aove the norm in literally a dozen different fields. He was arguably the most clever, cunning and resourcefull individual who ever lived. You can find other ultra-achievers that can match and in some cases surpass him in a specific area, but not overall. Overall, he might have been the most clever and resourceful man to ever live. Your name doesen’t go down in the dictionary as a synonym for power and authority for nothing. This is why all Roman emperors where henceforth called “Caesar”, trying to bask in the glory of the Great Man.

    But the Nietzschean Superman was not completely invincible. His extraordinary talents and gifts were his undoing: having conquered the World often outnumbered 50 to 1, outwitted not only all his rivals but all institutions and checks&balances without even breaking the law, out-fought Pompey, the #2 best Roman general ever up to that point besides Scipio and beat him with a handicap of 4 to 1, surrounded by adulators that secretly hated him, faced with his dilemma of not wanting to be seen as a tyrant but knowing that without some sort of transition the Republic would fall, suffering from pains caused by arthrites and epileptic fits, he let his guard down.. His miscalculated the intentions of those men that he had not only helped but in many cazses saved the life of. You save a man’s life, and if he has a masculine ego he will resent you for it instead of feeling grateful. So he fell to the daggers of the men he thought he could trust. He who had been such a keen observer of people and judge of character, lost this sense to hubris. And was stabbed to death.

    He was actually very preoccupied with his image as a Roman Patrician. Much more than being King, he wanted the Roman People to love him as their Greatest Man Ever(and he was arguably not only Greatest Roman Man ever, but strong candidate for Greatest Man Ever Period). He crossed the Rubicon because they gave him no choice. Up to that point, he had never broken a law. He even offered the Senate to disband his army except for the XIIIth, his personal guard, and garantee of legal immunity for cimes committed during his conquest of Gaul. It was denied to him. He knew that if he surrended the army without garantee of legal immunity, he would not only lose all power but would have all his assets confiscated, would be arrested and everything he did would be in vain. And 20-30 years latter, the Republic would fall anyway(it was broken beyond repair). Because he was a Patrician, they wouldn’t be able to crucify or hang him or take ghis citizenship. but he would end his days in exile, poor and in disgrace. Cicero actullay told Cato when him an dhis faction absolutely refused to negotiate with Caesar on “Republican principles” precipitating the civil war:

    “You have just brought down the Republic. A Roman man will chose his country and Society over everything, including his own life, except for his dignity. A man’s dignity is his greatest asset, You have greatly insulted his dignity,. and he will never forgive you for it. Caesar would die a thousand deaths to avenge even teh slightest insult to his dignity. you have insulted his dignity vry greatly. This is the end for you and your followers.”

    Durimng a dinner with Aurelio Cota, Caesar’s uncle on his mother’s side, who was a very old man at that point, Cicero speculated what motivated Julisu Caesar at that point, why, now pushing 60, he seemed like a demon in his ferociousness to beat all his opponents and obstacles:

    “King…no, I don’t think he wants to crown himself with the title of King. Becoming a king would diminish him before the eyes of his fellow Patricians. Power it is not, because he already is the most powerful man in the World; We both know that Pompey is now the lesser of the two…no, what motivates Caesar is his desire to shove his greatness down our throats. Before his time is up, he wants everyone, even his most hated enemies, to begrudingly admit that he is the best of the best. Not just the best, but the best of the best, and that there is no greater man than him in the whole World, and that all men are his inferiors.”

    • Replies: @syonredux
  115. @Flip

    Judging by the descriptions I recall in eg Ovid, Vergil, Tacitus et al, I get the impression the Roman upper class looked a lot like modern north Italians, a bit lighter than the average modern Roman. But descriptions of their soldiers as small, swarthy & stocky compared to long limbed, golden haired Gauls & Germans make it sound like they’ve not changed too much.

    Looking at genetics, Italians show up as quite distinct in Europe. I expect the upper class were more heavily descended from Indo-European speaking pastoralist invaders, and lower class more from the conquered Early European Farmers. In northern Europe the EEF were wiped out, but below the Alps & Pyrennees it was a more mixed picture.

    • Replies: @S. M. Coulton
    , @T.Chris
  116. @El Dato

    Considering how crude a lot of ancient maps are, he might have been able to do that.

  117. Meneldil says:
    @Kronos

    Cheddar man was a hunter-gatherer, from what I understand while they were blue eyed they definitely were darker than modern Europeans, but how much darker we don’t really know, could be just a bit more tanned or quite a lot, that image is probably quite exaggerated though. They were Caucasoid regardless of their skin tone.

    Lighter skinned but brown-eyed Neolithic farmer arrived next in Europe from the Near-East and settled most of it but were more numerous in the Southern than the Northern part if I remember correctly, by the time the Indo-Europeans arrived in Britain people like Cheddar man would have already been extinct being replaced and/or mixed with the Neolithic farmers.

    • Replies: @Travis
  118. Keypusher says:
    @Anonymous

    No, he’s not agreeing with you. He’s disagreeing with you. And “thanks for playing” always makes the speaker look like an idiot.

    Thanks for playing. See?

  119. @Flip

    They weren’t replaced, but the invasions of Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval Period certainly augmented the population to some degree with Germanic and Slavic peoples and, to a lesser degree, with Arabs.

    However, all of these groups are still Caucasian.

    There’s really no reason to debate the skin color of ancient peoples of the Mediterranean. They left us abundant full-color depictions of themselves through mosaics, pottery, and frescos.

    It’s actually quite surprising how often people in ancient Italy and Greece are depicted with light complexions, including blonde or red hair.

    Conversely, there are many Greek and Roman depictions of people from beyond the Empire. They drew some pretty stark visual contrasts between themselves and the people of Sub-Saharan Africa.

  120. @Simon in London

    Fhere are no descriptions of Roman soldiers as small, swarththy or “stocky.” The Germans were additionally never described as golden haired, but as red haired by Tacitus.

    The Celts were described as brown haired but they did bleach it blond “to simulate a blond ideal.”

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @S. Anonyia
  121. Anonymous[429] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai

    Why is the white at the top?

  122. @J.Ross

    “The funniest thing about Zuckerberg’s history erasure efforts is that no nonwhites care about this stuff.”

    (((almost)))

  123. Mr. Anon says:
    @animalogic

    Given that Caesar is one of the greatest men in western history I can live with the very dubious claim of “mass killer”.

    Not dubious at all.

    https://mentalfloss.com/article/72783/dutch-archaeologists-find-site-massacre-julius-caesar-boasted-about

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @El Dato
  124. Anonymous[429] • Disclaimer says:
    @snorlax

    Most of the damage had been done by Christians long before Muslims came on the scene. Idolatry.

    Someone upthread commented on the decline of realism in Roman art after Christianity. Same reason. You can’t worship something that looks like a kid’s scrawl.

    • Replies: @snorlax
  125. Nachum says:
    @Anonymous

    There are now techniques- I think using x-rays- to determine what the original paint on the marble was. It’s been used to restore the original colors of a bunch of structures and statues. Not sure it’s ever been tried on a statue of Caesar, but I don’t see why it can’t be.

  126. @Hillbob

    Oh cmon. Cant you folks on both sides stop this nonsense? It is overbearing and boorish. Dont we as a species have enough to contend with? Example, nuclear war?

    The Left is systematically replacing the productive with parasites. This program, if continued, is certain to extinguish the human race.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  127. dr kill says:
    @Ancient Briton

    Is this the film where they dropped men onto a giant blade? Was an enormous bell involved? I think I saw this movie when it was released, I was four.

  128. El Dato says:

    On collision course with the “all was dun by colordindus” woker crowd: It’s Time These Ancient Women Scientists Get Their Due: Reviving lost stories of women in science. By Emily Temple-Wood

  129. Lurking behind Gielgud and Heston that’s the bearded Robert Vaughn as Casca.

  130. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    Well, Sulla gave up absolute power voluntarily-as a Roman dictator traditionally did-and died in his bed surrounded by his favorite actors and transvestites. Sneering at this, Caesar did not, and died on the Senate floor surrounded by men with knives. That’s not nothing, you know?

    There’s definitely an insane amount to admire about Caesar, no question about it. As a man, as a general, as a politico. My own politics are increasingly sympathetic to his given how the US increasingly resembles the Late Republic. But the man was as prone to hubris as other Great Men in history, and he paid the price. Arrogance and selfishness played as much a role in his demise as misguided clemency. The universe will punch you down back to size, Newtonian style, if you get too uppity as a mere human.

    Augustus-someone far more akin to Sulla in worldview and temprement-would not make the same mistake, masking his autocracy in all the garb of the republic and unlike his great-uncle, never forgetting that he was the first servant of the state rather than the other way around.

  131. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:
    @Keypusher

    Ptolemy’s Geography in the 2nd century had some maps. He gathered a huge list of cities and geographical features and assigned them a longitude and latitude: They had this in astronomy at the time and he was the first to figure out it could work on the surface of the earth. Then he devised two map projections and drew the maps. His maps have not survived, but the text gives instructions on how to derive them from the data, so they have been reconstructed by a number of people since the Enlightenment. The monks copied all the text, but not the illustrations, but in this case the text was data that allowed the illustrations to be recreated.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_(Ptolemy)

    Before that, yeah, the Peutinger table, and also the similar sea route documents, such as the 1st century Red Sea/Indian Ocean document, Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, a text document that scholars have subsequently mapped.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

    • Replies: @keypusher
  132. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    No, they don’t. Coins and statues do not accurately represent skin, eye or hair color.

    …..Which everybody knows. This wasn’t Scipio Africanus’ actual complexion:

    They do not accurately represent features as the sheer amount of details to the human face makes it almost impossible to represent on marble.

    Dunno. These look pretty detailed to me…..

    As for Suetonius description, that is a description based on second-hand accounts.

    …Ditto for Plutarch.

    . It is no better than Plutarch’s account. In fact, Plutarch’s is better because Suetonius is far more general and focuses more on his grooming.

    …..Hey, JC’s grooming habits are an important detail:

    that he not only kept the hair of his head closely cut and had his face smoothly shaved, but even caused the hair on other parts of the body to be plucked out by the roots, a practice for which some persons rallied him.

    I say certainly because pretty much all the statues of Caeaar, despite contradicting each other on almost everything, show him with that nose. So it is a good guess that he had that nose.

    See, statues are helpful:

  133. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    Which is exactly why we can’t use statues to gauge how someone in antiquity look. So you are actually agreeing with me. Thanks for playing.

    No, that just means that unpainted marble and bronze don’t tell us anything about an individual’s coloring. They do, however, tell us things about the physiognomy:

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  134. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    They do not accurately represent features as the sheer amount of details to the human face makes it almost impossible to represent on marble.

    Let’s see:

    vs

    Looks reasonably accurate to me…..

  135. syonredux says:

    Heston was pretty good as Mark Antony:

  136. syonredux says:

    Richard Burton played Brutus in the 1970 movie. Earlier, Burton played Marc Antony opposite Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra, which was a pretty good match facially:

    Jason Robards played Brutus. He was terrible. Heston, though was quite good as Antony. Robert Vaughn was superb as the unctuous Casca.

  137. Here’s the Vatican Museums’ best guess at the original paint job on the famous Augustus of Prima Porta statue

    That does not look unlike Zuck. Is there any record of Augustus stature? My guess would be he would have been at least average height. The cocksuckerberg is short.

    • Replies: @Meneldil
    , @syonredux
  138. Anonymous[429] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    So Caesar was strong on border and immigration issues.

  139. El Dato says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Caesar said his troops slaughtered the entire population [450’000]. However, the new discovery allows archaeologists to more realistically estimate the true death toll. They believe that between 150,000 and 200,000 people were killed.

    That’s about 6 million in modern currency.

    Black-on-black violence can be rather appalling.

  140. Dube says:
    @a commenter named me

    Thank you. Certainly the masterful modeling of forms in classical sculpture must have been matched by mastery in coloring. Who’d have gone into the Parthenon to communicate with Athena if an hour’s poster color job would cause a visitor to burst out laughing?

  141. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @ben tillman

    Tardigrades will inherit the earth.

    My hope is that AI with a world-savior complex will come earlier and forcefully help out because every sentience needs to have a hobby.

    Just pray it’s not built in the promised land or likewise outsourced to someone over there otherwise we are all fugged.

  142. El Dato says:
    @syonredux

    And then Calvin went and wrote a conspiracy article for unz.com.

    Meanwhile, in Rome:

  143. Jason Robards played Brutus.

    He was so good as Barry Gordon’s bachelor uncle in A Thousand Clowns that for many years I assumed he was Jewish. (The only one with that name in my pre-Jason-fad high school class was Jewish.) But he’s a mongrel. Wikipedia tells us,

    Robards was of German, English, Welsh, Irish, and Swedish descent.

    So he was GEWIS.

    As for the subject at hand, Mrs McCoy looks kind of off-pink, though her eight children probably don’t — unless they have a medical condition:

    https://www.channel3000.com/news/beloit-couple-charged-with-child-neglect-sentenced-to-three-years-probation/1116549638

  144. @Tlotsi

    Pope Gregory 1: Not Angles, but Angels. So, there!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Anon
  145. @BB753

    Dunno Taleb’s height, but has anyone ever seen Taleb and the “Bagel Boss” in the same place together?

  146. @El Dato

    From what part of Asterix’s adventures is that?

  147. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    You made the argument that statues and cons are accurate depictions of how a person in antiquity looked like while I made the argument that statues and coins do not accuratgely represent a person’s skin and eye colors; then, you posted the famous bust of Scipio Aricanus where he is whown with black skin, when we both know that a Roman aristocrat of the gens Cornelia would not be black. So you proved *my* point that statues do not accurately depict how someone looks. You made a logically contradictory post that disproves your own point and proves mine. I guess this argument between me and you is over.

  148. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @El Dato

    “The Adventures Of Asterix, The Gaul” are awesome comics. Too bad they never took off in America. In the series, Romans are protrayed as callous, morally decadent and inept idiots. Pretty much the only Roman that is treatd with respect is Julius Caesar, who is depicted as an invincible genius who fails only because the Romans he leads are inept cowards. Caesar is refered simply by the initials J.C, and even the protagonist Asterix in their few encounters talks to him with reverence. He is also portrayed as towering heads and shoulders above everyone else in physical height. This is accurate to some degree as Caesar was a very tall man by Roman standards. But he probably of average height by Celt and Germanic standards(Celts and Germans were taller than Romans by accounts of the Germans themselves).

  149. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Keypusher

    Very wrong. You would be surprised by how good the Greeks as early as the Vth century B.C were making their maps.

    • Replies: @keypusher
  150. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Obelix&Company.

  151. El Dato says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    “Obelix & Co.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelix_and_Co.

    Obelix and Co. is the twenty-third volume of the Asterix comic book series, by René Goscinny (stories) and Albert Uderzo (illustrations). The book’s main focus is on the attempts by the Gaul-occupying Romans to corrupt the one remaining village that still holds out against them by instilling capitalism It is also the penultimate volume written by Goscinny before his death in 1977; his final volume, Asterix in Belgium, was released after his death in 1979.

    Capitalism, but ironically the sort that is installed by pumping money into the village as if the Federal Reserve had just eased itself.

    It’s definitely one where the style veers from “Crazy adventures of the plucky Gaul” to “Parody of real-world events”, not always in a good way. Note that Caius Preposterus looks suspiciously like Jacques Chirac.

  152. @Bies Podkrakowski

    It looks like it’s from Obelix and Co. Just looking at it again with adult eyes, it’s arguably a critique of the American imperial technique:

    https://archive.org/stream/Asterixcompleteset/Asterix/23-%20Obelix%20and%20Co#page/n13/mode/2up

  153. @Flip

    Here’s a video of a recent attempt at measuring, via DNA (I think):

    It was covered on iSteve around the time it came out.

  154. snorlax says:
    @Keypusher

    There’s another, equally or more plausible theory that the statue is of Constantine and his sons.

    It is true, however, that realistic statues begin to disappear shortly before Constantine’s reign, though that may be because Constantine and/or other participants in the post-Tetrarchy civil wars had them destroyed.

  155. Not Raul says:
    @Altai

    Ms. Zuckerberg should troll this site for ideas.

  156. Meneldil says:
    @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    According to wikipedia they are actually almost exactly the same height (Augustus was supposedly 170cm tall), but that’s wikipedia, and the average height was almost surely much lower back then, although maybe not for the aristocracy.

  157. snorlax says:
    @Anonymous

    To be sure, the Christians did a ton of damage but the Muslims took it to a much further extreme. A lot more Roman art survives in the areas (Italian peninsula, France, England) that were never conquered by Muslims than the areas that were, despite the latter having been wealthier than the former. And the Muslims destroyed Christian art as well as pagan.

    And to be fair, even during pagan times a lot of statues and art were intentionally destroyed for political reasons. The victors in a coup or civil war would destroy depictions of the losers and often also previous emperors and historical figures to whom the losers were related. Emperors would also destroy depictions of predecessors who were unpopular, against whom they had a familial grudge, or who still had living relatives that could pose a political threat.

  158. Travis says:
    @Meneldil

    they assume Cheddar man had dark skin because of two genes responsible for lighter skin among Europeans. Western hunter-gatherers tended to lack the genetic variants at SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 correlated with lighter skin, which today in European is found at frequencies of ~100% and 95% respectively.

    Yet East Asians lack both the derived variants of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 common in Europeans but are often quite light-skinned. A deeper analysis of the pigmentation of European hunter-gatherers might lead us to conclude that they were an olive or light brown-skinned people. modern Arctic peoples are neither pale white nor dark brown, but of various shades of olive despite having the same genetic profile as Cheddar man. Native Americans also lack there genetic variants at SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 correlated with lighter skin, but they were never considered to be Black skinned by Europeans. The Cheddar man, along with other Western Hunter gatherers may have had a complexion similar to Native Americans or East Asians.

  159. Anonymous[429] • Disclaimer says:

    That is true, at least in the Western Empire, Christian iconoclasm was never very popular. It was (at least until the Reformation) a primarily Eastern phenomenon.

    The Greek East had a long tradition of worshiping images of pagan gods. This was much weaker in the Latin West. Christians understandably had a huge problem with this, and remained suspicious of artists and sculptors long after the political victory of Christianity. (You can imagine that these professions were full of pagans.)

    Even today Eastern Christians have a devotion to holy images that seems strange to Westerners.

  160. syonredux says:
    @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    Suetonius, The Life of Augustus

    He had clear, bright eyes, in which he liked to have it thought that there was a kind of divine power, and it greatly pleased him, whenever he looked keenly at anyone, if he let his face fall as if before the radiance of the sun; but in his old age he could not see very well with his left eye. His teeth were wide apart, small, and ill-kept; his hair was slightly curly and inclining to golden; his eyebrows met. His ears were of moderate size, and his nose projected a little at the top and then bent slightly inward.110 His complexion was between dark and fair. He was short of stature (although Julius Marathus, his freedman and keeper of his records, says that he was five feet and nine inches in height),111 but this was concealed by the fine proportion and symmetry of his figure, and was p247 noticeable only by comparison with some taller person standing beside him.

    111:Roman measure; •a little less than five feet seven inches English.

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html

  161. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    Cicero’s IQ(SD=15) has been put in the range of 160’s-170, which is pretty accurate estimate given the variety of his intellectual strengths and the level that he displayed them.

    Talk about the height of absurdity! If Cicero was 170, what were Plato and Aristotle? 200? And Archimedes must have been 200+……

    Total nonsense.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  162. Muggles says:

    Isn’t the current Hollywood Woke Formula as follows:

    Historically correct white males can be played by anyone, preferably not a straight white male.

    Colored people (a/k/a “people of color”, as in latinate languages) must be played by POC or CP, but not by whites. Asians are scarce as actors so you may substitute any color but white.

    Historically correct white females may be played by anyone, preferably a trans POC/CP. The fatter, more butch and hairy the females, the better. Of course few people actually wish to see films featuring these people, but they do well at college film festivals. Well, Ivy League film festivals.

    All villains must be white or Middle Eastern. And male, hetero male.

    However, box office grosses may suffer, because society is still ruled by white racist/male chauvinists who control movie ticket buyer choices.

  163. J.Ross says:
    @S. M. Coulton

    How did they take the blonde hair of northerner slaves if it wasn’t blonde?

  164. @Ancient Briton

    Pope Gregory 1: Not Angles, but Angels. So, there!

    Don’t forget Adrian IV, the only Anglo-Saxon pope. Not to be confused with Adrian VI, the only Dutch pope, and the last straniero before JP II.

    • Replies: @jim jones
  165. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ancient Briton

    … si forent Christiani.

  166. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    They still don’t come up to RU’s report of that one test.

  167. @Anonymous

    Which is exactly why we can’t use statues to gauge how someone in antiquity look.

    If you can afford to hire a sculptor, you can afford to hire a sculptor to make you look good. Same with portraitists.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  168. Anon[239] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    “Julius and Alexander, the two most iconic figures of the Ancient world – and remain to this day pretty much unmatched less alone surpassed as Great Men.”

    Ghey

  169. Anon[239] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    “Yonda is da castle of my fodda”

  170. Anon[239] • Disclaimer says:

    Why, it’s almost as if those IQ numbers are just pulled out of ones ass.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  171. Disclaimer: I’m old and of another, discarded generation.

    The way these kids think and speak is so discordant to my senses. The music of their speech is decidedly de-balled. When did our men lose their balls and embrace eunochism?

    Clarification: When did Western men lose their balls?

  172. MEH 0910 says:

    OT:

  173. syonredux says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    If you can afford to hire a sculptor, you can afford to hire a sculptor to make you look good. Same with portraitists.

    If this is the idealized version of Pompey…..

  174. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    The mistake you make is in assuming that IQ is the only thing that matters in genius. It’s not. For instance, Einstein, the greatest genius of the 2oth century, had an IQ of “only” 162(SD=15) according to most estimates. Robert Oppenheimer had an IQ higher than Einstein put at 170+, and yet Einstein was undoubtedly the greater genius. Von Neumann had an IQ much, much higher than Einstain’s(Neumann easily outsmarted geniuses at IQ ~160. And yet, while both Einstein and Von Neumann were great geniuses, Einstein was the greater of the two.

    Cicero was extremely smart in the way that IQ tests measure intelligence: he was quick-witted, had exceptional memory(knew hundreds of laws by heart), was an outstanding writer in many styles of writing with a vast vocabulary, etc. He probably wasn’t good at math, but Dostoevsky was also not exceptional at math, and yet if you read his “Crime Anf Punishment”, “the Karamazov Brothers”, etc, he was inhumanly intelligent and his IQ was put at 180-185. And yet, he would never be able to produce what Einstein did with his Theory of Relativity. You assume a linear relation between IQ and genius, which doesen’t exist. IQ is a conditione a priori for one to produce work of genius, but it acts as a threshold and having a higher IQ above a certain level does not offer many advantages.

    Julius Cesar IQ as a deviation score was put by Antony Buzzan at 177(SD=15)(high genius level). Cicero was not as smart as JC, but he was Caesar’s rival and could at least hold his own to some degree, so there is no question that his IQ was exceptional.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @syonredux
  175. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    All IQ estimates of historical figures, by definition, are pulled out of someone’s ass. But professional psychologists are pretty good at gauging the IQ testg of someone by just reading their life history to see how mintellectualy precocious they were. Adult IQ’s can be estimated very accurately by estimating childhood IQ based on intellectual precocity and dubtracting 25 points. So a child of 4 that can read and do math at the 6 year-old level has IQ 150. That trasnlates into IQ 125 as an adult.

  176. @Flip

    Minor. Northern Italians had a major infusion of Germanic genes. Southern Italians and Sardinians are probably a pretty good approximate of the appearance of Ancient Romans, minus Sicilians who are basically Greeks w/ a tiny amount of Middle Eastern genes.

    Greeks probably have a lot more Slavic/Turkic/Caucasian influence. If anything they got lighter through this admixture. Sicilians may be more “Greek” than many actual Greeks.

  177. @S. M. Coulton

    I don’t think hair colors were seen the same way then as today. People spent a lot more time outside, they might have described the way hair glinted in the sun as the color rather than the way it looked indoors. Light/medium brown hair looks reddish or golden in the sun, unless it has a mousy tint. Even dark brown hair looks reddish in the sun. I think that’s why so many tribes were described as red haired in ancient accounts. It’s also why a ton of medieval monarchs were described as having “red gold” hair when only a few like Henry VIII actually fit the modern description.

    The Greeks used to not see the sky as blue, but as simply “clear”, for example. Therefore Athena the “clear eyed.” The sea, along the same lines, was “wine dark”

    In the Renaissance, light eyes- green and blue and all shades between- were usually described as “grey” rather than their specific color. Today we only say grey if there is a clear silvery blue tint.

  178. jim jones says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Popes must come from the Third World because that is the region where most believers come from.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
  179. @Kronos

    This skin color of this fraudulent “reconstruction” is a complete lie, by the way. What they found out was that the first set of Europeans didn’t have the alleles associated with very light skin that northern Europeans have. That doesn’t mean that they were brown or black skinned.

    Mediterranean looking peoples like Greeks, Spaniards etc mostly lack the pale skin alleles, yet they’re not brown or black. The exact skin color of the early hunter-gatherers isn’t actually proven and it would be difficult to achieve certainty in this matter as they may even have now extinct alleles influencing skin color (so that we’d need to clone some of these people to study the effects) but Occam’s razor suggests the most likely comparison to be people who have the same set of identified genes today – like any blue eyed but Mediterranean skinned Spaniard or Italian.

    Indeed that is what the first illustrations presented, eg.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140126-blue-eye-spain-fossil-human-discovery-gene/

    …but once the political ideologues heard about the lack of pale skin in the first Europeans it was immediately spinned into “brown” or “black” people with blue eyes even though no new evidence has been discovered and there’s still no reason to think that the European hunter gatherers were as dark skinned as Africans or southern Indians. What we know is that they were not as pale skinned as today’s British whites.

    And of course in Spain they didn’t have the same opportunity to spin since they found out that the hunter-gatherers have about the same skin color alleles as modern Spaniards, the only difference is the eye color. It’s only when they tested hunter gatherers from Britain and found out that they are pretty much the same as the Spanish hunter gatherers that they started spinning a story about “brown skinned first Europeans”.

    • Replies: @ExposeThem511
  180. Anonymous[349] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    It took huge balls to overthrow Galileo/Newton. I’m sure a lot of physicists in the late 19th century suspected something like relativity was true, but declined to follow the logic to its conclusion because of the huge implications. (You can probably say something similar about Evolution before Darwin.)

  181. @Flip

    Ancient Greeks and Romans descended from Noah’s sons Shem and Japheth who were white/ruddy Adamic men. All the Middle East was white at one time till they mixed with the Canaanites which is how we got the modern jews and arabs who are raced mixed. Kenites, the descendants of Cain, mixed with first white creation in Genesis 1. Adam was created in the 7th day of creation, Genesis 2:7, and is a different but same species white man as Genesis 1:26. The downline of Cain mixed with Canaan, the cursed grandson of Noah and they became the various Canaanite tribes. They were a darker people of mongol mix. God did not create miscegenated people. The darker races are a different species and each was forbidden to race mix according to the kind after kind decree in Genesis 1. White man was endowed with the so-called image of God in order to keep God’s laws and rule the earth. White man transgressed God’s law and we are now approaching a time where it’s reaching the climax of transgression. The Bible predicts what’s happening today, race mixing is at the top of the list as that is what brought the flood in Noah’s time. God killed all the race mixed whites at that time and Noah’s family was the only salvageable group who were perfect in their descent, meaning pure white dna. The Bible states when the calamity hits, He will restore His original creation and all race mixed will be eliminated. John 3:16 is not a statement of God loving all people which He does not. It’s a statement using the word in Greek, kosmos, which is His original ordered creation. Once white man’s punishment is up for not keeping God’s laws, it will all come crashing down. The jews are Canaanites not Shemites or Semites. They may have “some” Semitic blood but not much. White man is the Semite and the chosen. Jews are usurpers who were living in Judea at the time of Christ and as citizens they called themselves Jews too, which comes from Judea and not Judahite. Jews are not Israelites. They are the mortal enemy of God and will be dealt with as prophesied in Deuteronomy 7, Obadiah and Zechariah.

  182. @Jaakko Raipala

    The hunter gathers are referred to as beasts of the field in scripture and they were the mongol and black races. The serpent was a race mixed white as in jews and arabs, who are both of Canaanite descent. Genesis 3:15. The creation of “aw-dawm” or Adam was the creation of white man who was created much later than the other races of God’s original creation. White man is agrarian and not considered a hunter gatherer, only perhaps out of necessity.

  183. @jim jones

    Isn’t 3rd world Catholicism more charismatic/evangelical in nature, though? By traditional believers with traditional practices I would think somewhere like Poland is probably the most truly “Catholic” country.

  184. @Hillbob

    Convince the aggressors to stop it first. You stupid faggot.

  185. @Redneck farmer

    Semantics is fluid.

    People are still arguing what exactly Homer meant with what is now usually translated as ‘wine-dark sea’.

  186. J1234 says:

    When we were at Knossos on Crete a few years ago (the Minoans were a major influence on the ancient Greeks with regards to art and architecture) our guide explained to us that the drastic contrast in coloration between figures in paintings was not a reflection of racial difference, but of gender. Men were usually (though not always) portrayed as very dark in Minoan paintings (wet frescoes), and women as very pale. Men worked out side and became very tan, she said. The upper class women shown in paintings stayed inside most of the time, and men of many races rend to be darker than women of the same race. Putting too much emphasis on the color tone of figures in ancient art can easily devolve into projection by 21st century historians. Imagine what SJW’s would do with the following picture (it’s really just a Minoan princess surrounded by attendants who were likely of the same race.)

    https://linearbknossosmycenae.com/2014/03/21/the-linear-b-attendants-tablet-a-tough-nut-to-crack/

    • Replies: @J1234
  187. J1234 says:
    @J1234

    Correction: the lady is a priestess, not a princess.

  188. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous

    Julius Cesar IQ as a deviation score was put by Antony Buzzan at 177(SD=15)(high genius level). Cicero was not as smart as JC, but he was Caesar’s rival and could at least hold his own to some degree, so there is no question that his IQ was exceptional.

    Look, Caesar was a smart guy. So was Cicero.But any attempt to assign an IQ score to them is laughable. And that 177 score!As I said upthread, Archimedes must be off the charts….

    but Dostoevsky was also not exceptional at math, and yet if you read his “Crime Anf Punishment”, “the Karamazov Brothers”, etc, he was inhumanly intelligent and his IQ was put at 180-185.

    You are so gullible…..

  189. T.Chris says:
    @Simon in London

    EEF was not “wiped out” in Northern Europe. That’s what used to be thought, but there’s actually still a lot:

  190. T.Chris says:
    @Flip

    Ancient Greeks (Mycenaeans and Minoans) were genetically similar to Modern Greeks, Italians and Albanians:

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2017/08/genetic-continuity-in-greece.html

    Ancient Romans (pre-Empire) were genetically similar to Modern Northern and Southern Italians:

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552-s15.html

    No population replacement

  191. T.Chris says:
    @Anon7

    There were no “open borders” in Ancient Rome. The foreign population was ~5% at its height with high mortality and low fertility, and the city was repopulated from the countryside:

    https://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/few-foreigners-in-ancient-rome.html

    https://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/minimal-impact-of-roman-slavery.html

    • Replies: @Anon7
  192. Anon7 says:
    @T.Chris

    Between roughly 300 BC and AD 200, millions of immigrants came to Italy. Most arrived in chains, as slaves, the victims of Rome’s wars of expansion or of piracy. But others came of their own free will, either to seek their fortune or to lose themselves in the anonymity of a big city; with a population of about a million, Rome was the largest city in Europe or the Mediterranean. In this cosmopolitan place, people of various backgrounds and skill sets saw opportunities abounding.

    Why Ancient Rome Needed Immigrants to Become Powerful

    • Replies: @T.Chris
  193. Blubb says:
    @bored identity

    “However, President Roosevelt understood the risk Hitler posed.”

    Which was?

    This is really a mystery to me. Britain against Germany – sure, easy to understand. But, since it all was Lügenpresse, and Roosevelt knew, what was the risk for the United States?

  194. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @bored identity

    Meanwhile, the reputation of Lindbergh had become toxic as a result of the infamous speech he gave in Des Moines, Iowa, on September 11, 1941, in which he suggested Jews were pushing the US to enter a war that was not in the national interest. It was widely labelled as anti-Semitic.

    That was the day the U.S. went to war with Germany. It was when Roosevelt gave the order for the U.S. Navy to sink German submarines on sight.

  195. T.Chris says:
    @Anon7

    Doesn’t refute any of the evidence I posted: slaves didn’t have a chance to reproduce very often, immigrants were always a small % of the population (and mostly Greek or other Southern European), cosmopolitan Rome was a population sink and repopulated from the countryside, Ancient Roman (and Greek) DNA is the same as Modern Italian DNA, etc. etc.

  196. keypusher says:
    @Anon

    Go back and read the post I was responding to. The maps you’re describing are nothing like the ones Caesar allegedly memorized at a glance.

  197. keypusher says:
    @Anonymous

    Surprise me, then. Show me the 5th century BC Greek maps.

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