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iSteve commenter Twinkie writes:

Japanese = Asian Englishmen. They are the second biggest customers of Savile Row in England. That says it all.

Chinese = Asian Continentals, an amalgamation of Russians, French, and Germans. They are basically Asian Roman-Byzantines.

Koreans = The (Ulster) Irishmen of Asia. They drink, they fight, they hate each other, and everyone else. They are liable to fall apart on their own, but do great things under Anglo tutelage.

P.J. O’Rourke said much the same thing after a visit to Seoul: Koreans reminded him of his own Protestant Irish family.

Taiwanese = If the Chinese are Asian Russians, the Taiwanese are Asian Serbo-Croats. They do well economically, but have the highest murder rate in East Asia.

Filipinos = Asian Italians. Catholics who keep their heads down and do trade/service labor with good cheer. A little on the slow side.

Indochinese (Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians) = Asian Balkans, I suppose. But really Asian Salvadorans. Some of them work hard, others join violent gangs. Still others (if from the mountains) hunt people in the woods.

Thai = Asian Mexicans. Hard working, moderate IQ folks with spicy food.

Indians = Asian equivalents of Middle Easterners in Europe. A small subset is made up of very high IQ folks of ancient tradition, but the rest are liable to be low IQ gang-rapists.

Indonesians/Malaysians = Asian North Africans. Most are mellow, but the religious ones are scary.

Singaporeans = Asian Swiss. Clean, corruption-free, and oh-so-superior to everyone else around them. Don’t litter – or you will pay a fine.

 
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  1. Neoconned says:

    Why are Koreans like that?

    I’ve also heard Korean is a language isolate….maybe that has something to do with it?

  2. He’s wrong on Indians. If you look at Singapore, whose Indian population back in 1990 was almost entirely drawn from the descendants of indentured (and hence lower caste) populations, Indian-Singaporeans were earning almost as much as ethnic Chinese.

    So if lower caste Indians can rise to that level within a span of 40 years, there’s no basis to think of them as inherently less capable.

    Source

  3. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:

    The “Jungle Asian” meme is the usual bullshit stereotype not supported by any statistical evidence. Vietnamese IQ is above the Balkans average and within the southwestern European range. Cambodians are higher IQ than Scandinavians (who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards):

    A U.S. Census Bureau survey done in 2004 found that Filipino Americans had the second highest median family income amongst Asian Americans, and had a high level of educational achievement.[25]

  4. @Neoconned

    I have read Korea is where the Mongols who ruled China ended up after they were kicked out.

  5. jon says:

    Koreans = The (Ulster) Irishmen of Asia.

    P.J. O’Rourke said … Koreans reminded him of his own Protestant Irish family.

    I’ve had more than one Korean say they are the Irish of Asia. They usually point out the following similarities: smaller island/peninsula country with big bully neighbors, wear their emotions on their sleeves much more than surrounding countries, famous for their drinking, their music and their fighting. Can confirm that it’s all pretty accurate. When moving back to Korea after a stint in Japan, I remember two old ajusshis getting into a fight at a little after work dive pub/restaurant – one guy broke a soju bottle over the other’s head and cut his ear pretty bad. The owner yelled at the bleeding guy to get out (fighting was OK, but bleeding was over the line), and then everyone just went back to eating their meals like it was normal. I realized I wasn’t in Japan anymore.

  6. jon says:
    @Neoconned

    Why are Koreans like that?

    Korea has 50 million people (75 million if you include North Korea). Japan has twice that, and China is orders of magnitude more. Their history until modern times is brief periods of independence interspersed with longer periods of being a vassal state or an occupied territory.

    • Replies: @Gimeiyo
  7. jon says:

    I’d say the Filipinos are the Mexicans of Asia – you can always find a bunch doing domestic work or labor jobs in the wealthier countries – but with crap food.

    • Agree: Pop Warner
  8. szopen says:

    No Asian Poles or Asian Czechs? As usual, our region just don’t exist in collective Western mind map 😀

    • LOL: GoRedWings!
    • Replies: @Rahan
  9. Coag says:

    I thought the Japanese are most reminiscent of Germans and they see themselves as similar to Germans, which is why they purposely modeled their government after Bismarckian Germany: both eerily conscientious races of engineers and martinets whose weird repressed sexual urges are exactly for which Freud’s “Civilization and its Discontents” was intended.

  10. Anonymous[416] • Disclaimer says:

    Taiwanese = If the Chinese are Asian Russians, the Taiwanese are Asian Serbo-Croats. They do well economically, but have the highest murder rate in East Asia.

    Serbia and Croatia are neither known for high murder rates (the opposite, if anything, at 1.23 and 0.58 respectively), nor for being economic successes. Pretty random choice of group(s) to compare the Taiwanese to on those criteria.

    • Agree: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @utu
  11. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @Redneck farmer

    No you fucking haven’t and you can’t cite a single source to support that statement.

  12. Coag says:
    @Anon

    The “Jungle Asian” meme is the usual bullshit stereotype not supported by any statistical evidence. Vietnamese IQ is above the Balkans average and within the southwestern European range. Cambodians are higher IQ than Scandinavians (who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards):

    Forget the Balkans. Fancy Asians will always see Jungle Asians as Jungle Asians.

  13. Gordo says:
    @Anon

    who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards

    Should give you pause for thought.

  14. gate666 says:
    @Anon

    these altrighters are full of shit.

  15. So basically, the Eurasian landmass is a giant bilateral ethnic mirror image with its axis/pivot at about … Persia.

  16. nebulafox says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    Kuala Lumpur: Malaysian capital founded by Chinese. Singapore: Chinese dominated city-state that was originally a Malay sultanate, though it’s worth noting that the majority of “Malays” in modern Singapore are descended from various ethnic groups in modern Indonesia, such as Javanese or Minangkabaus.

    But honestly? I’d say the analogue is Italians. They definitely have the family dynamics, loyalty, schlamperei, and la dolce vita attitude. Anyway, traditionally, Malays were a rural people: farmers and fishermen. In Malaysia, this only changed in the 1980s with the explosion in public sector jobs when Malaysia boomed economically in tandem with the bumi. Kuala Lumpur used to be a majority Chinese city. It’s now majority Malay, though still has a large Chinese minority.

    I’ll also add that once you get past the massive differences in religion and Westernization, Malays will show a lot of behavioral attributes that anybody familiar with Filipinos will recognize-which makes sense, same racial family.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Bill B.
  17. nebulafox says:
    @jon

    Korea is the epitome of a work hard/play hard culture… and a study hard/brawl hard one, too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  18. @Thulean Friend

    What shall we make of the UK income stats?

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @Jmaie
  19. @Anon

    Alright, just a boring c-p….

    The entire IQ controversy is not worthy of attention for reasons I’ve already mentioned:

    1. IQ, as a single figure, is ill defined. It is meaningless. It doesn’t matter whether it is mostly heritable or not. It doesn’t predict anything (for instance, other psychological traits like non-conformity or eruptive temperament may be of more importance than “IQ”- a 180 points IQ man will not achieve any societal success because he is, say, utterly individualistic & destructive in behavior toward a broader society).

    2. people differ in their talents, capabilities- but this is trivial. Life will sort out talents without any measurement.

    3. groups of people differ in their talents. It is wrong to think that culture, in the broadest sense, can be altered. Culture, as a way of life, is almost completely unalterable. Italians can never behave like Japanese & vice versa. Their values, perception of life, ambitions, strengths & weaknesses, fetishes, talents … are carved in stone.

    4. collective IQ is stratospheric nonsense. It is averred that American blacks’ IQ is 85, while Indians’ (in India) is 76. And any “argument” about castes is irrelevant. It is bell curve in both cases.

    We all know- if we know- that despite its squalor & shithollery, India has great scientists, nuclear power, scientific institutes, high intellectual culture. While US blacks ….

    Iran has IQ 80. Does anyone of sane mind think that these countries would be as functional as US blacks’ national home, if American blacks were given their nation-state somewhere in the US, say Texas plus Louisiana (both with access to the sea), and left to their own devices?

    Would ex-US blacks build their new roads, power plants, school engineers, organize the military & diplomacy … as does Iran, with her supposedly lower IQ? Iran has, despite religious fanaticism, functioning scientists, technology, universities, spy satellites, .: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Iran

    Iran’s university population swelled from 100,000 in 1979 to 2 million in 2006.[citation needed] In recent years, the growth in Iran’s scientific output is reported to be the fastest in the world.[1][2][3] Iran has made great strides in different sectors, including aerospace, nuclear science, medical development, as well as stem cell and cloning research.

    So, would US blacks- IQ 85- given their nation-state, accomplish anything better than Iran- IQ 80?

  20. nebulafox says:
    @nebulafox

    An afterthought: Malays are way more reserved and shy than Italians, though.

    The Chinese, if they think you are retarded or ugly, they’ll bluntly tell you. Malays won’t. They’ll put on a smile and won’t show you their real feelings: it’s considered un-genteel and child-like. This makes them ideal for diplomatically dealing with other people… but can also lead to severe mental stress when the mask is too divorced from their current reality.

    Javanese in particular are very circumspect, deliberate, soft-spoken bunch. I think the social code there was actually motivated by the same factors as Japan: you have a large amount of people crowded onto the coasts of a not-so-big, highly mountainous island, and you have to make the dense cohabitation work.

  21. bomag says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    I often think of Malaysia when contemplating countries that abide with little accomplishment; while the USA/Europe, with a rich history of accomplishment, is rather quickly giving demographic replacement to those who did the accomplishing.

    A cautionary tale: don’t burn too bright if you can’t keep the looters away from the party.

  22. SFG says:

    I’m sure Twinkie knows what he’s talking about, but this made me smile:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/indonesians-hate-the-chinese-because-they-are-jewish

    (Of course he blames it all on the Dutch.)

    Apparently the overseas Chinese are kind of a middleman minority all over Asia.

  23. @Thulean Friend

    “I used to talk to an Indian. He was the administrator of Agra and we were driving back to Delhi. This was in the late 1970s. So he was telling me he was writing a thesis on Shakespeare, a highly-educated man. At that time, English-educated, that generation. So I said, supposing I pretend as a caste, supposing I pretend I’m a Brahmin, high caste and I invite you to dinner, he said yeah I’ll come. You give me a good dinner, I’ll come. Now supposing I want to marry your daughter? He says that’s different. The most thorough inquiries will be made. So I said supposing I tell you I came from Calcutta and how you’re going to find me. He says no, you’ve got to live somewhere in Calcutta, you must have your family, your neighbours, your friends in Calcutta, we’ll find out. Then we’ll know what caste you belong to.” – Lee Kuan Yew

  24. When I lived in California we used to say Filipinos were Latinos God made Asian by mistake.

  25. bomag says:
    @Anon

    Looks like your chart reinforces the stereotypes, with China and Japan way ahead.

    The larger population groups in the Balkans outpace the Vietnamese.

    The Scandinavians are knocking near the top, while getting outliers like Abel and Carlsen from a smallish population. Does Cambodia offer a true countrywide sample, or is it more of an elite sampling?

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    , @Anon
  26. angmoh says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Is the origin story verified? My understanding was that the ‘civic class’ of Indian beneficiaries of British colonialism made up a good portion of the Indian population of British Malaya. Not all coolies. Merchants too

    My personal experience with Indian-Singaporeans has more Tamil Brahmins than you’d expect from a random sample of low-caste Indians – but maybe it’s the circles I run in (!)

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @ABCStar
  27. Vietnamese love Donald Trumpelhoff.

  28. Some Guy says:
    @Anon

    Compared to “fancy Asians” the difference in your data is clear though.

    Scandinavians (who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards)

    Keep in mind this data includes large immigrant groups with IQs in the 80s.

  29. Malla says:

    I have a slightly different view
    Ainus = Samis/Lapps
    Japanese = All of Asia’s Anglo-Teutons-Scandinavians
    Koreans = Irishmen of North East Asia
    Northern Chinese = North Eastern Slavs like Russians, Ukrainians
    Mongols = Sikhs/Pathans of North East Asia
    Southern Chinese/ Vietnamese = Italians/ Greeks/ Armenians
    Myanmar, Cambodia, Philippines, Laos = East Asia-Pacific Region’s Central America. Are to North East Asia what Latin America is to North America.
    Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei = East Asia-Pacific Region’s very own Middle East but more sane and peaceful.
    Papua New Guinea = East Asian Pacific longitude region’s very own Sub Saharan Africa (in reality, even more backward and crazy than SS Africa but thankfully smaller with very small population)
    Siberians Natives = Inuit/Eskimos
    Russians of North Asia = Northern Crazy + Tough Whites of Asia Pacific region.
    Australians = Southern Crazy + Tough Whites of Asia Pacific region. East Asia Pacific region’s very own White South Africans.
    New Zealanders/Kiwis = Nice Whites of Asia Pacific region. Are to Australians what Canadians are to Americans.
    Maoris = Native Americans
    India = Hindu Brazil but more accurately a Gypsy country with a Jew like elite.
    Bangladesh = Gypsy country with a Gypsy elite. India’s Mexico, source of illegal immigrants.
    Pakistan = Islamic Argentina. Is to India what Argentina is to Brazil. Taking on a bigger enemy. More Caucasian than darker India just as Argentina is more Caucasian than darker Brazil.
    Bhutan = Indian Subcontinent’s Switzerland (not in money but cleanliness and civilized nature). Shangrila, Up in the hills.
    Iranians = The Europeans of the brown Caucasian world of Middle-East/ Indian Subcontinent. More like France of the Middle East- South Asia world. Just like French culture, food was the classy of Europe, Farsi food and culture was the classy of Middle East & South Asia.

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous, Half-Jap
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Dmitry
    , @Billy Shears
  30. @jon

    wear their emotions on their sleeves

    Indeed.

  31. Malla says:
    @Thulean Friend

    descendants of indentured (and hence lower caste)

    Not compulsory. Many upper caste Hindus went as indentured labour. V.S. Naipaul was a UP Brahman from Trinidad. I know many Tamil Brahmans (surnames like Vishwanathan, Iyengar) in Singapore and Malaysia from the original stock who went during the British Empire. There are many of them there with large communities. You would definitely want Brahmins to do puja rituals in the Hindu temples there.

  32. slumber_j says:
    @jon

    I remember reading aloud from that P.J. O’Rourke piece in probably late February of 1988, while driving with a friend from Houston to NY. O’Rourke got in some trouble for stuff he wrote in it (even back then): specifically that it was weird to be surrounded by people in a gigantic political demonstration who all had pretty much the same hair color etc.

    There was a lot of pointing out that actually they don’t all look alike etc. etc., all of it of course willfully obtuse and prefiguring the latter-day bullshit we now must bear. Anyway, I was reading aloud from it because it was hilarious.

  33. slumber_j says:

    Japanese = Asian Englishmen. They are the second biggest customers of Savile Row in England.

    They also make really, really nice clothes themselves. Attention to detail? Oh, yes…

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  34. EldnahYm says:

    I don’t agree with lumping in Vietnamese together with Cambodians and Laotians. The stereotype of Cambodians and Laotians is that they are rather indolent, which is not similar to Vietnamese at all. Vietnam in some ways has a similar feel to southern China. This is not really the case in Laos or Cambodia.

    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
  35. Ulysses says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Yeah, basically the 2 biggest drivers of civilizational progress are distance from the equator and distance from the steppe, so it makes sense that the people of Eurasia would look somewhat longitudinally symmetrical.

  36. Ian Smith says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    1. I strongly suspect that mulattoes skew the black American IQ higher. Look at how many of the most successful blacks in the US are 50% or less African (Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, Barack Obama, etc.)

    2. The IQ of the land of Rumi, Hafez, and Ibn Sina seems low to me. It could probably see some Flynn effect with the right policies. However, remember that the Iranian diaspora does not necessarily represent the Iranian average. Iran has had severe brain drain since 1979.

  37. @Redneck farmer

    There may be some very indirect ethnic similarities but the Koreans were intensely hostile to Mongols(they’re been fighting their version of the war against northern tribes since times immemorable) and the Yuan remnant was instead to the north of China, where the Ming eventually exterminated them.

  38. @Anon

    I’m a midwit. Please provide source.

    • Replies: @res
  39. Rahan says:
    @Anon

    Never trust an international IQ list where Nigeria is 68 or 70 or whatever.
    Nigeria should score in the low 80s, just like Pakistan and Iran.
    Other markers include Belarus, which should be very near Russia and the Ukraine, and also Serbia and Croatia should be almost identical as well.

    If you’ve got this:
    a) Nigeria overlaps with Pakistan and Iran
    b) Belarus overlaps with Russia and Ukraine
    c) Serbia overlaps with Croatia

    Then the data is solid and more or less up to date. If instead Nigerians score like retards while Belorussians are intellectual superhumans, the data is crap.

    That being said, South-East Asian IQ levels overlap almost completely with South-East European levels, that’s pretty true.

    But Cambodia scoring North European and North Asian levels is like the super-genius average Belorussian–data error. Cambodia, Thailand, and Laos realistically should be around Albania, Bosnia, and Macedonia, which also should overlap with the smarter Turkic nations (Kyrgyzstanis and Turks for example).

    Use common sense to not get entangled in fake or out of date data. Or, cross reference with PISA results, they tend to compliment decent IQ results pretty well.

    …The Philippines and Indonesia, plus Cambodia and Laos, they’ve got about a 7-8 point average IQ rise in the coming decades, if they can swing it. Many others have peaked.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  40. Sean says:
    @Neoconned

    To me the physical peculiarities of Koreans in are likely a reflection of them having a high degree of adaptation to rice farming, which requires co-operation.

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2020/03/affective-empathy-double-edged-sword.html

    Kitayama et al. (2014) makes this point when discussing certain alleles of a gene, DRD4, that are associated with risk seeking and heavy drinking in the United States but not in East Asia. These alleles seem to increase the desire to emulate one’s peers, and such emulation is more likely to favor dysfunctional behavior in the United States than in East Asia

    It might be the case that the 7R and 2R alleles are associated with greater acquisition of culturally sanctioned social orientations under generally favorable conditions of socialization, such as careful guidance and scaffolding of norm-congruous behaviors by socialization agents (e.g., parents, relatives, neighbors), but with markedly different, deviant behaviors (e.g., delinquency and risk proneness) under unfavorable social conditions or adversity, which might “reward” externalization or risk taking. (Kitayama et al. 2014)

    These alleles seem to explain the weaker individualism and stronger social conformity of East Asians. When Kitayama et al. (2014) compared a sample of Euro-Americans with a sample of East Asians born in China, Korea, or Japan, they found that the East Asians were less individualistic than the Euro-Americans on a social orientation test, but this difference was limited to carriers of DRD4 alleles that increase dopamine signalling, i.e., 7- or 2-repeat alleles. Non-carrier East Asians were just as individualistic as non-carrier Euro-Americans (Kitayama et al. 2014)

    Sociable people like to go out drinking together and that oft times ends in brawls.

  41. Travis says:
    @Anon

    IQ has is a small factor in the differences of Jungle Asians verse Fancy Asians. Their culture , history and geography probably have bigger effect on the characteristics of its people. Other personality traits are likewise important.

    For the same reason Balkans are very different from the French. The difference in geography, religion , history are more important reasons their cultures are so different. IQ is not the main factor.

  42. Zpaladin says:

    I always thought of Koreans as the Poles of Asia. China is Russia and Japan is Germany. Korea is caught in between. Both Poland and Korea spent a lot of time repelling invasions from both sides while adopting lots of culture. My Korean grandfather had to go by a Japanese name during the occupation. My Polish greatgrandfather was in the Austrian army because there was no Poland.
    Yet both have fiercely strong cultures and are proud of their history even though by objective measures of military, political and economic power they lagged behind their much bigger neighbors.
    Japanese culture changes radically since WWII, from bushido/samurai to pacifist/salaryman. Korea has changed much less.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Malla
  43. IHTG says:

    The wheels of the new dispensation are greased with xanax:

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    , @res
  44. Bill B. says:
    @bomag

    Yes, the Cambodia figure looks wrong and bizarre. Twinkie lumps Indochina – Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia – together but that is surely wrong because Vietnamese are racially much more aligned with the Chinese whereas Laotians and Cambodias are closer to non-Chinese Thais.

    Indeed culturally Laos and Cambodian were influenced by Indian culture a thousand years ago in ways that Vietnam never was. See this great book:

    https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/115019/2/b11055005.pdf

    Twinkie says that Thais are “moderate IQ” and I would add with a useful culture that rewards loyalty, efficiency and moderation (current problems notwithstanding). Nevertheless the IQ is meaningless commentators have to explain how all – repeat all – leading Thai businesses are run and largely owned by Chinese-origin Thais.

  45. black sea says:

    My admittedly limited exposure to Koreans suggests that they have a darkly humorous streak which I find appealing. In fact, I just tend to find them more interesting and sympathetic than most other Asian cultures. I still remember the Seoul Olympics of 1988, when the fans started heaving metal chairs into the ring to protest the loss of a Korean fighter.

    Also, the Rodney King riots . . . .

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @Thoughts
  46. AndrewR says:

    I know very little about the differences between Chinese subgroups but I imagine they must be significant, that’s before we take into account non-Han groups. If you can lump all of China together than you can lump Europe together.

    The Taiwanese murder rate, if significantly higher than anywhere in China, can possibly be explained by their non-Han admixture.

    • Replies: @GoRedWings!
  47. Let’s talk about what’s really important here; Who has the hottest women in the region. Having lived and travelled extensively in Asia, my vote goes to northern China with Japan the runner up.

  48. “Japanese = Asian Englishmen. They are the second biggest customers of Savile Row in England. That says it all.”

    Asian Englishmen who’s national game is American baseball. For the longest time they also liked US based films and culture. Emperor Hirohito during his US visit wanted to meet John Wayne. I guess that does say it all.

    • Replies: @guest
    , @Chrisnonymous
  49. Rahan says:
    @szopen

    No Asian Poles or Asian Czechs? As usual, our region just don’t exist in collective Western mind map 😀

    Too granular 😀

    North Slavs/Central Europeans as a whole tend to be lumped together as “Russians”or “Germans” depending on the filter, hence you guys are all part of “China” in this cross-continental similarity-fest.

    Still, China is big, so zoom in to choose the equivalent region here:
    https://www.travelchinaguide.com/chinese-beer.htm

  50. Bill B. says:
    @nebulafox

    But honestly? I’d say the analogue is Italians.

    Hmm… I am not sure about that. The Italians have produced a huge swath of the world’s greatest artistic achievement. The Malays – not so much.

    Equating Malays with Filipinos may be right: the Philippines has been rapidly left behind by Thailand and Malaysia in the last half-century because they had fewer Chinese entrepreneurs, to put it bluntly. (And a grasping landed elite).

    As I get to say every 18 months on iSteve, Malaysian Chinese acquaintances have told me that the Malays will never be able to lift themselves up (crude affirmative action aside) because they lack the intellectual punching power of the Chinese.

  51. Koreans.

    Here in New York City – thirty, forty years ago – a typical urban block in the outer boroughs contained a fruit and vegetable store or stand, owned and operated by a Korean immigrant Mom and Pop. They are disappearing now, as Mom and Pop retire, and their kids move on to bigger and better things.

    By reputation, they were nasty. On one occasion, at least, I witnessed as they lived up to that reputation. After parking in front of such an operation, I went inside to ask for change for a dollar to feed the parking meter – a common courtesy provided by the city’s retail merchants. In response, Mom, grabbing a broom, ran from behind the counter, yelling “You get out of HEE-aa!” as I beat a hasty retreat. True story.

    It was around the time that Al Sharpton began his campaign to goad black New Yorkers into hating everyone else in town, and vice-versa. One of his first consisted of rants about the rudeness Korean greengrocers exhibited toward their black customers. He either did not know or did not care that they were rude to everybody.

  52. Twinkie says:
    @Anon

    A U.S. Census Bureau survey done in 2004 found that Filipino Americans had the second highest median family income amongst Asian Americans, and had a high level of educational achievement.[25]

    Sadly, this is illusory. For example, Filipinos in America have higher median family income than, say, Koreans in America. However, this is because Filipinos have higher number of members per family than Koreans. Per capita, Filipino income is lower than that of Koreans in America.

    Also, Filipinos are the only major Asian group in America whose American-born population has lower rate of college degree attainment than foreign-born. In other words, the children of Filipino immigrants are less educated than their parents unlike any other major Asian group.

    See my earlier comment: https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-are-asian-american-test-scores-soaring/#comment-3509135

    For example, among Koreans born overseas (i.e. immigrants), the percentages of those with at least a bachelor’s degree and a graduate degree are 52% and 20% respectively. Those for the American-born are 60% and 23%, respectively.

    Among Vietnamese born overseas, they are 25% and 7% respectively. For American-born Vietnamese, they are 51% and 14%, respectively. Among Chinese, 50% and 27% among those from overseas vs. 66% and 25% born in America. One thing to keep in mind is that the educational selectivity of the recent Chinese immigrants is high (so confounds that data a bit)…

    Moreover, Indian immigration is EXTREMELY selective in terms of education. 72% of Indian immigrants have at least a bachelor’s degree while 40% have graduate degrees (unlike the past cohorts, however, Indians born in the U.S. don’t do much better than their foreign-born counterparts, 74% and 41%, respectively)…

    There is one major group, however, that bucks this trend – Filipinos. For foreign-borns, the numbers are 49% and 9%, respectively. For the U.S.-born, 41% and 11%. That’s right, American-born Filipinos attain bachelor’s degrees at lower rates than their immigrant forebears. Filipinos are truly the Mexicans among Asians (while Indians are the Jews and Koreans are the Irish).

    • Replies: @Anon
  53. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Under the pax americana Korea Taiwan and Singapore can thrive.

    We bail oout they are Hong Kong at best.

  54. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    Imagine being so low IQ that you can’t see how the chart shows Vietnamese as having the same IQ as Greeks.

    Meaning Southeast Asians can be as intelligent or more so than white people, who Asians deeply respect.

    The point of the chart was not that Jungle Asians are as intelligent as Fancy Asians, but that they are not “unfancy” (unless you consider Europeans unfancy).

    This is with HDI levels well below the European average; a lot of Vietnamese and Cambodians are still drinking water polluted with neurotoxins. Basically, IQs of 92 or 97 are the best that Europeans can muster with clean drinking water, relatively little air pollution, good nutrition, etc. While Asians are exhaling visible carbon and drinking PCBs and posting IQs of 107.

    If Europeans were raised under the same conditions, their IQs would be like 40 on average, they would be dropping dead by age 20 (keep in mind that a substantial number of white people in the USA are claiming to suffer life threatening illness and autism from exposure to gluten, a naturally occuring protein found in grain foods, and fear mercury exposure from vaccines that probably amounts to what an average Vietnamese eats in seafood daily).

    ** IQ and HDI in China are generally higher in the southern regions, where there is substantial “Jungle Asian” ancestry. So it’s very unclear whether China’s successes can be grouped with “Fancy Asians”. The northeastern Han are less sophisticated. This trend has existed for at least 1500 years — southern China has long been more advanced than the north.

    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    , @bomag
  55. Bill B. says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The IQ numbers may not be exact but rather signal national limitations. I don’t think anybody argues that culture is not important. Sadly American black culture has shed a lot of its ambitions over the last half century.

    Indeed ethnic groups with a tradition of enterprise and doggedness can user racial solidarity as a force multiplier in business. Even intellectually mediocre groups can prosper by repeatedly pushing until something works.

    Look at the UK where running petrol/gas stations are rapidly becoming an Indian/Muslim speciality. Ditto post office shops. Two Gujarati brothers who built up a petrol station empire (with profits coming from forecourt food) are taking over the big Asda supermarket chain from Walmart.

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
  56. How many Nobel Prizes or Fields medals have each of these ethnicities won?

    I know a good number of Japanese have done so, and a few Chinese, and a couple Indians, a Vietnamese, and I think a Pakistani. But any others?

    And what’s the broader state of science in some of these countries, for example Korea or Taiwan?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  57. In the mid 1980s I spent 3 1/2 years stationed at MCAS Iwakuni, in Western Japan, and had the good fortune to visit Korea several times. I would take the local train to Shimonoseki from Iwakuni, and from there the ferry service to Pusan. My first trip was a few weeks before Korea hosted the Asian Games in ‘86, and I was struck by the stark difference in temperament between the Japanese and Koreans. To me, the Japanese were calm and unemotional, the Koreans were gregarious and passionate – polar opposites! I thoroughly enjoyed my time in both countries and the women were GEMS.

  58. Twinkie says:
    @jon

    I realized I wasn’t in Japan anymore.

    You don’t see a scene like this in Japan, at least not in public:

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  59. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Nah man, you’re just a butthurt Korean who is mad that Filipinos are higher status than your people in this country. Filipinos have a higher per capita income than Koreans:

    http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demographics/filipino.html

    Per capita Income of $19,259.

    http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demographics/korean.html

    Per capita Income of $18,027

    It’s always painful when your pre-conceived notions about what reality should be like are destroyed, but acceptance of the truth is the first step toward healing.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  60. @jon

    I’d say the Filipinos are the Mexicans of Asia

    Agreed, but they are far less violent.

  61. Tim says:

    I just don’t buy into the analogy at all.

    I think the better analogy is Fancy Asians v. Jungle Asians.

  62. @candid_observer

    I don’t think this ahistorical approach is of much importance.

    How many great literary works has Russia produced before 1830? Basically, zero.

    How many great mathematicians has UK produced between 1800 and 1900 in comparison with, say, France and Germany? Not much, just a few names (Hamilton, Boole, perhaps Stokes,….). Not even comparable.

    Things go up and down.

    Probably the West will, in next decades, go down as a result of suicidal anatioanal dysgenic. Then, east Asians will absolutely dominate.

    • Replies: @GoRedWings!
  63. @slumber_j

    slumber, years ago I had some shirts and my wife, some blouses made while we were in Hong Kong. I thought they were high quality, especially at the price. Nice to own a tailor made piece of apparel.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Reg Cæsar
  64. Grumpy says:

    It would be interesting to read Linh Dinh’s thoughts on this.

  65. songbird says:

    I wouldn’t combine regular Vietnamese with other SE Asians. IMO, they are midway between SE Asians and the Chinese. They have been partly Sinicized. Wouldn’t be surprised if they if they had an average IQ near 100. Of course, my observations are based on immigrants, which may be selective.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Malla
  66. Art Deco says:

    Koreans = The (Ulster) Irishmen of Asia. They drink, they fight, they hate each other, and everyone else. They are liable to fall apart on their own, but do great things under Anglo tutelage.

    Taiwanese = If the Chinese are Asian Russians, the Taiwanese are Asian Serbo-Croats. They do well economically, but have the highest murder rate in East Asia.

    Filipinos = Asian Italians. Catholics who keep their heads down and do trade/service labor with good cheer. A little on the slow side.

    Indochinese (Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians) = Asian Balkans, I suppose. But really Asian Salvadorans. Some of them work hard, others join violent gangs. Still others (if from the mountains) hunt people in the woods.

    Thai = Asian Mexicans. Hard working, moderate IQ folks with spicy food.

    Indians = Asian equivalents of Middle Easterners in Europe. A small subset is made up of very high IQ folks of ancient tradition, but the rest are liable to be low IQ gang-rapists.

    Indonesians/Malaysians = Asian North Africans. Most are mellow, but the religious ones are scary.

    Singaporeans = Asian Swiss. Clean, corruption-free, and oh-so-superior to everyone else around them. Don’t litter – or you will pay a fine.

    He should be riffing off an observable reality. Problems

    1. The homicide rate in Taiwan is < 1.0 per 100,000 and nowhere near the highest in the Far East. That in the Philippines is 8x that in Taiwan.

    2. Among the southeast Asian states only in Burma, Laos, and the Philippines (and their diaspora) do you find a population with an abnormal propensity to violent crime. (And they're fairly benign compared to the mode among Latin Americans)

    3. Thailand has one of the world's most dynamic economies and it's a reasonable wager will qualify as a 1st world country in another generation. (Ditto Indonesia; in re Malaysia, it may qualify as 1st world within a decade if not sooner).

    4. India has had some horrid spikes of political and social violence over the last 75 years, but it's not abnormally prone to violent crime on a mundane basis. It's also been quite economically dynamic since 1990, though it still lags the occidental world by four generations or more.

    5. Koreans haven't been under Japanese ('Savile Row') tutelage since 1945 and haven't been under ours, either. We've had troops there, not industrial managers. (And the number of troops we've had there might have been enough to secure Seoul, but not the rest of the country were a critical mass of the population recalcitrant).

    He never remarks on the signature feature of the Far East in our time: a disinclination to procreate.

  67. Jack D says:

    Indochinese (Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians) = Asian Balkans,

    Lumping Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians together as one makes as much sense as lumping Mexicans, US citizens and Canadians together as “North Americans”. They are very different people in terms of appearance, culture, language, etc.

    Even if you speak only of the Vietnamese, it’s hard to generalize because Vietnam is a big country north to south (not so much east to west), roughly the same size N-S as the original 13 colonies and we know how different a Georgian is to a New Hampshire man, a Virginia gentleman vs. a west Virginian mountain man. Balkan in the Western mind implies quarrelsome mountain people but Vietnam is a water country just as much as it is a mountain country. Like the 13 colonies it faces the sea but has the mountains at its back, so thinking of them only as a bunch of hill tribesman (who, BTW in Vietnam are ethnically different than the Vietnamese themselves) is like being only one of the blind men who are examining the elephant – you are not wrong but you don’t have the full picture. It’s easy to misunderestimate the Vietnamese because their men are the size of Western preteen boys but you do so at your own peril, as the US Army found out.

    Vietnam also had its “Jewish” minority in the form of the Chinese, a disproportionate % of which left after the war and ended up here, so a lot of people we think of as “Vietnamese” in the US are actually ethnic Chinese, who are as different to Vietnamese as Jews were to Ukrainians.

    I applaud Twinkie’s effort at translating Asia to understandable Western counterparts because throwing all “Asians” in the same pot makes no sense at all, but any effort at stereotyping has to fall short when done in such broad brush strokes. You also have to understand Twinkie’s own prejudices as a “fancy” Asian who looks down on “jungle” Asians and not accept him as an unbiased observer.

  68. kihowi says:

    The Koreans are of course, Christians. The Japanese were originally welcoming to the missionaries but changed their minds and massacred them all. The Koreans didn’t do that.

    What I find funny about the Koreans is that culturally they are exactly where they are geographically, ie exactly between Japan and China. Not as crass as the Chinese, not as delicate as the Japanese. And that weirdly makes them more relatable to Westerners than either of them.

  69. @William Badwhite

    There’s a lot of chinese Filipinos or part chinese. That group has a higher IQ. Filipinos are also good at learning languages (like English) and that gives them a leg up in the international employment market. They can crew on cruise ships and megayachts. Philippine medical schools are clones of American schools and teach entirely in English and attract Indian students.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    , @Malla
  70. @Neoconned

    “I’ve also heard Korean is a language isolate”

    I’ve heard that too.It is unrelated to either Chinese or Japanese notwithstanding its geographic proximity to both countries. For that matter, even the origins of Japanese are rather murky.

  71. kihowi says:
    @Coag

    There are three centers of pornography production in the world. America, Germany, and Japan.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    , @JMcG
  72. polistra says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Steve and twinkle are just following up on the Asian SAT post, softening up merkins for the Asian Overlords thing. Here are your new masters, here’s how to tell them apart since most of them look alike. Yawn. Merka’s getting so completely trashed with migrants from all the third world countries, it’s becoming harder to care what happens to it.

    If they hadn’t trashed their own countries so completely, these migrants wouldn’t be flooding into ours by the tens of millions. Many more to come.

    Consider this thought experiment: every place on earth was once beautiful. That’s nature’s way. It was the people who wrecked it, one place after another. The very worst have the densest populations and the highest birthrates. They’re coming after your place now.

  73. Jack D says:
    @Thulean Friend

    You can take a tree that is dwarfed and stunted growing in one soil (even its native soil) and transplant it to a different forest (perhaps one that is less crowded and with better sun and and soil) and there that same tree will soar.

    Living in their isolated shtetls and constrained by their religious observance, before the 19th century no one thought of the Ashkenazi Jews as capable of making any scientific or cultural contributions. During the Ellis Island wave, many Americans were concerned that they were letting in a semi-retarded bunch of folks who would prove to be ineducable.

    The same thing has happened with the Indians – their poverty and backwardness was not genetic. Feed them a better diet and send them to school in the West and they do great.

    OTOH, this doesn’t work 100% of the time. Some nationalities who are backward in their home country STAY backward when you bring them to the West.

  74. anonymous[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thulean Friend

    It’s common to hear the story of Indians in East Africa as mostly the descendants of railway laborers. But this is not true. The 19th century Indian migration to East Africa included a lot of colonial clerks and Gujarati merchants. The big Indian business houses in East Africa are owned by Gujarati families who have lived in East Africa for several generations.

    I don’t know about the migration profile of Singapore’s Indians (aside from the fact most are Tamil among multi-generation Indians). But what is true of the migration profile of East Africa (savvy traders and civil service clerks) could also be true in Singapore. Also Tamil Nadu and the rest of South India are more developed than the rest of the country especially North India. So regardless of caste southerners are likely smarter than the Indian average.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  75. Thoughts says:
    @black sea

    My great experience with Koreans taught me that there is darkness there, I failed to notice the humor.

    I read a Korean friend’s diary once…yeah…that was enough.

    But hey if violence and darkness is your thing…

    • Replies: @BS
  76. Jack D says:
    @Roderick Spode

    The Philippines were a Spanish colony for over 300 years until 1898 (more recently than most Latin countries) and most are Catholic. While they perhaps kept more of their native culture and language than Latinos, there was a major Spanish influence so it’s not surprising that they have some similarities to Latinos.

  77. AKAHorace says:
    @Almost Missouri

    So basically, the Eurasian landmass is a giant bilateral ethnic mirror image with its axis/pivot at about … Persia.

    Are there online discussion groups where Asians discus who are the Koreans of Europe ?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  78. res says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Looks like a comment downthread in this (note the filename).
    https://eurochan.org/by/thread/210083#210105

    Based on Lynn and Becker’s 2019 book.

  79. peterike says:

    This Asian, that Asian. Whatever.

    The only rule about Asians is that immigration of Asians into Western nations should be set to ZERO (except for Japanese), and most of those already here kicked out.

    Remember Peterike’s Law: Asian immigration will be much worse for America than Mexican immigration, and Mexican immigration has been a disaster.

    Why does America need a single new Asian?

  80. @Jack D

    Anti-hereditarians like to triumphantly point to height as proof that all important traits (e.g. height or IQ) are malleable.

    See, they say, once people have good nutrition and vitamins, they get much taller. So of course the same thing happens with IQ.

    But they never get around to explaining about Japanese vs. Dutch. Japan and the Netherlands are both healthy, wealthy and well-fed, and yet, male Dutchmen are 6 feet tall, and male Japanese are 5 feet 8 inches tall. That’s a big difference. Why is it so hard for them to say that both heredity and environment are important?

  81. This is a fun thread. Next, let’s do Africa. I’ll go first: the Igbo are the Armenians of Africa.

    • LOL: BB753
  82. @Twinkie

    You are spot on about the •Indians.

    [MORE]

    https://www.barrons.com/news/indian-low-caste-woman-dies-after-gang-rape-second-in-a-week-01601534710

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/pregnant-goat-dies-after-8-men-gang-raped-it-in-haryana-1299168-2018-07-28

    https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/man-rapes-dog-to-death-section-377-unnatural-offences-ipc-1035577-2017-09-01

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/01/30/rape-eight-month-old-baby-sickens-india/1078159001/

    https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/crime/article/hyderabad-30-year-old-man-rapes-baby-calf-eyewitness-says-abuse-going-on-for-years/564102

    https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/india/india-female-stray-dog-raped-by-40-year-old-man-in-maharashtra-social-media-users-furious-1.1595862956400

    https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/man-held-for-suspected-rape-murder-of-9-month-old-girl-in-telangana-1552328-2019-06-19

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-baby-girl-murdered-after-suspected-rape/articleshow/74183584.cms

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/asia/rape-chennai-india.html

    https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/they-took-turns-to-rape-my-dog-up-woman-tells-police-1563278-2019-07-06

    https://www.mynation.com/news/after-gang-rape-of-goat-in-haryana-cow-raped-in-madhya-pradesh-pcy6jy

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/andhra-pradesh/2020/jan/08/two-arrested-for-raping-cows-at-vnagaram-farm-2086702.html

    https://www.news18.com/news/india/three-month-pregnant-cow-raped-in-andhra-pradesh-left-up-to-tree-1983203.html

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @ABCStar
  83. @nebulafox

    Social behavior in Japan is a partly a typewriter keyboard–that is, choices from the past are having continuing impacts. Early literature like Genji monogatari suggest a world that has some social similarities to modern Japan, although the literature is all about upper classes. Later warring states era and Pax Tokugawa era societies also seem to have similarities with modern times. The adoption of those periods’ ruling class outlook and norms was intentionally promoted in the pre-WWII period, and in the post-war country, the “everyone is middle class” dominant narrative has continued the trend of society adopting ruling class norms. The use of said early literature for education of the youth, going back to said Pax Tokugawa period, has reinforced the cross-centuries web of connections.

    What was that quasi-historical society that led to the creation of the world of Genji that we can still recognize today? It was much less densely populated than now, the large scale farming and high populations being later developments.

  84. @William Badwhite

    Hmmm… not sure about that…

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
  85. @International Jew

    The Hausa are the Azeri of Africa.

    The Japanese are the Malagasy of Africa.

    The Zulu are the Prussians of Africa.

  86. @Roderick Spode

    Could be the Spanish influence in the Philippines.

    Filipino kids also identify with black gang banging culture, or at least did at some points in the 90s. Well I guess so did a lot of middle class white kids by then.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  87. @slumber_j

    P. J. is one of the greatest latter day ethnographers

  88. Polynikes says:
    @Neoconned

    Being somewhat familiar with Korea, the Irish comparison falls apart a little for me. Koreans are extremely studious and pretty smart. They are very low on the creativity scale, even amongst Asians. Steadfast conformists to a fault. So the opposite of the Irish.

    They don’t love to fight as much as they are—after emerging from the starvation years—some of the biggest and hardiest from that region and therefore fare well in fighting.

    They are a bit of the outcasts in the region, so maybe sort of Irish in that way.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  89. J.Ross says:
    @Coag

    The Japanese had this very interesting experiment where they broke off little groups to study and larp as specific Europeans, actually ate the food and wore the costume, and then advocate for the whole nation imitating that model. There was a French group which of course thankfully lost. There was an Italian faction which sort of still crops up as Japan is very similar in many ways to Italy and they make comparisons and connections a lot. Of course the winners were teams Germany and Britain, which followed the most dynamic and successful countries at the time beside the US, and these became the basis for the Diet and the naval-themed school uniforms.
    This is one the major examples I know of where non-Westerners really studied the West culturally with a view to adoption, the other being the founder of the Ikhwan getting freaked out by square dancing.

  90. anon[773] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Cambodia is way off. Judging by both the development level of the country and by the performance of their emigrants in the US, I would put them closer to Indonesia, around 79. You can also tell by which Asian subgroups continue to qualify for AA in CA(even though we’re not supposed to acknowledge AA is practiced), the only groups who do not qualify are Chinese, Indians, Koreans and Japanese, i.e. the “yellow Asians” + Indian. The brown Asians, all the ones from Southeast Asia or South Asia, still qualify.

    Development in Southeast Asia is highly correlated with the percentage of Chinese in their midst. In general, the higher the percentage of Chinese, the higher the development. Singapore has the highest percentage, at 76% Chinese, is the most developed. Next is Malaysia, at 22%, second most developed. Then comes Thailand, at 16% Chinese, third most developed. After that, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Indonesia, Philippines all have around 1% to 3% Chinese, and very backward. Vietnamese are closest in kin to the Chinese, so they are up and coming. But all of SEA are still better off than the South Asian Subcontinent, with near 0% Chinese, they are at African level of development, which explains why their IQ is closer to Africa’s, or is explained by it.

  91. EdwardM says:

    I think this is a good list, though I would analogize Filipinos more to Mexicans (“Catholics who keep their heads down and do trade/service labor with good cheer” — does that really describe Italians?).

    Thailand is a pretty unique country and I can’t think of a good analogy. It’s insular and self-sufficient (famously the only country in the region with hardly any Western historical influence) despite not being rich. Unemployment is near zero and, unlike some other SE Asian countries, you don’t see a lot of Thais spread around the world. They have a great hospitality culture unlike anywhere else in SE Asia even though they can’t learn English to save their lives (or maybe they don’t want to). People are happy with their lot in life (which resembles Filipinos). I don’t know much about Peru, but maybe something like that, with Chinese in Thailand substituting for Japanese in Peru?

    Back to the Philippines. What a shithole country. I don’t think there’s anywhere outside Africa more systemically filthy, downtrodden, and corrupt. Seems like it has bastardized Latino and American culture to disastrous effect. And the food, good god. In a region with tremendous cuisine (e.g., Thai, Malaysian, Vietnamese, Cantonese), somehow they didn’t get the memo. Again horrible attempted adaptions of foreign dishes (spaghetti, “kari-kari” for curry, horrible stir fries), plus their native food — gelatinous, glutinous sauteed pig face, flavorless grilled meat with pork liver vinegar sauce, melted cheese in the wrong places, none of the fragrant herbs and vegetables that characterize Vietnamese and Thai. Even simple lechon — crispy fried or roasted pork belly — which should be wonderful, is generally of very poor quality and execution. (I have had universally better versions outside the Philippines where I suppose the standards must be higher.) All they seem to do there is breed (my friend calls them “LBFMs” — the L, B, and M stand for “little,” “brown,” and “machines”). Think of how lucky they are to have been colonized by America and speak English (even though they talk like babies and deliberately adopt lisps), so they can at least get jobs in the Gulf or at domestic call centers for American customers. The people are generally dumb, mostly single mothers and indolent men, and they all have tattoos and braces.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @jon
    , @nebulafox
  92. @Neoconned

    Twinkles is right about the Irish; but there is no Eire analog to Kimchi. In terms of Hispanic equivalents, the Irish are the Mexicans of Europe (according to my Texan grandpa who was the son of Irish immigrants). Irish creativity flourishing under Anglo tutelage? It worked for Bram Stoker.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Matra
  93. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    Wasn’t it sparked by a Mendessohn getting called out at a party because the intellectual capital was being used only for theology, and he went back and convinced his cousins to wade out into the world? So there was a concious decision. The immigrants who fail despite better soil are often people who think they can do (and speak) like the old country, without adapting.

  94. OT, World War T update – afaik the first legal case saying “I know I meant it at the time, but come on, people – I was 16!

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8810015/IT-worker-23-sues-NHS-gender-clinic-gave-puberty-blocking-drugs.html

    An IT engineer put on puberty blockers as a 16-year-old girl has claimed a gender clinic failed to carry out a proper psychiatric assessment before giving them to her.

    Keira Bell, 23, of Manchester, who is taking legal action against the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in London, suffered from gender dysphoria as a child.

    She took testosterone, which left her with a deep voice and possibly infertile, and had a double mastectomy – but later realised she had ‘gone down the wrong path’.

    Miss Bell is now taking the Tavistock, which runs the Gender Identity Development Service, to the High Court to stop it ‘rushing’ other teenagers into changing sex.

    She is also raising fears over puberty blockers which halt a child’s normal physical development, making sex-change surgery easier when they reach adulthood.

    ‘It’s true you can’t change your sex. You can appear a certain way. If you’d had me on a couple of years ago I would have had the same story (as others), saying that it saved my life and I’m in a much better position.

    ‘But the point is that teenagers can’t comprehend how it’s going to affect their adult life. People may say that it’s helped them but for how long? For two, five, ten years? It’s very flippant… they never should have let me transition.’

    Miss Bell is taking the gender clinic to court along with a mother who wants to prevent youngsters making ‘catastrophic’ decisions that they live to regret.

    The woman, who can only be called ‘Mrs A’ for legal reasons, fears her 16-year-old daughter will be fast-tracked for transgender medical treatment once she is seen by clinicians at the GIDS.

    She says they will simply ‘affirm’ the girl’s belief – mistaken in her mother’s opinion – that she is really a boy. In reality, Mrs A believes her daughter’s desire to be male is driven by having Asperger’s syndrome, a mild form of autism.

    She’s mixed race, so may have possibly had the odd identity issue for starters. I’m not at all sure the testosterone and the double mastectomy has helped. Poor girl.

  95. @Jack D

    Twinkie is actually an East Coast WASP.

    • LOL: William Badwhite
  96. anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:

    Filipinos are the Mexicans

  97. anonymous[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    The Cambodian number looks way off to me, at least judging by the developmental level of the country and by the performance of their emigrants in the US. I would put them closer to Indonesia, around 79. You can also tell by which Asian subgroups continue to qualify for AA in CA(even though we’re not supposed to acknowledge AA is practiced), the only groups who do not qualify are Chinese, Indians, Koreans and Japanese, i.e. the “yellow Asians” + Indian. The brown Asians, all the ones from Southeast Asia or South Asia other than India, still qualify.

    In my observation, development in Southeast Asia seems highly correlated with the percentage of Chinese in their midst. In general, the higher the percentage of Chinese, the higher the development. Singapore has the highest percentage, at 76% Chinese, and is the most developed. Next is Malaysia, at 22%, second most developed. Then comes Thailand, at 16% Chinese, third most developed. After that, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Indonesia, Philippines all have around 1% to 3% Chinese, and far less developed. Though, probably closest in kin to the Chinese, Vietnam is up and coming. But all of SEA are still better off than the South Asian Subcontinent, with near 0% Chinese, they are at African level of development, which explains why their IQ is closer to Africa’s, or is explained by it.

    Many people are often surprised by the low level of general IQ in India judging by the performance of their emigrants, but really it’s not surprising at all if you look at the developmental level of the country. India is a big country. Even if only the top 1% emigrate, that’s still 12 million of them, 5m of whom are in the US. Since their average IQ is 76, the top 1% is probably…two Standard Deviations above? That would put their IQ at around 106. Sounds about right. The vast majority of Indians in tech are really quite average. The smartest coders in tech are still either white or Northeast Asian, or at least from my decades of experience working in that industry.

  98. J.Ross says:
    @jon

    When I was briefly in Korea I saw a lot of Saturday Night street fights, which were real, and terrifying. None involved squaring off or assuming kata. All consisted of about eleven guys getting one guy on the ground and then kicking the hell out of him. Police ran around but it was all they could do to keep up. In Japan at night the scariest thing you see is an over-served salariman falling to the pavement so that his head emits a surely-fatal CRAAACK, then lying still for some minutes, then getting up and waddling home as if nothing happened.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  99. @Roderick Spode

    Filipinos are the Olmecs of Asia.

  100. Gordo says:
    @Jack D

    Feed them a better diet and send them to school in the West and they do great.

    Yeah but they don’t become Westerners, perhaps they could improve their own soil? Or someone else’s? Does it always have to be ours the are planted on?

  101. The Larry says:

    I always heard Japanese coworkers refer to Filipinos as black Asians. Dear lord the flips have the most gaudy cars, houses, furniture etc.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  102. Pretty spot on. I’ve noticed other similarities inline with Twinkie’s analogy. For example, the wit of Koreans and Irish (relative to their neighbors) or the way Italians and Filipinos focus on fashion and appearance.

    • Replies: @Mobi
    , @Anonymous
  103. Questore says:

    Thailand’s ‘merry monarch’, King Vajiravudh, called Chinese the Jews of Asia, and tried to siamize them.

  104. Hmmmr says:
    @Thulean Friend

    I have wondered this too. I’ve read that new Indian immigrants are very impressive which may explain why they top income but lag behind education according to wiki. It could also be that the low castes that made up the founding stock had a genetic potential not as low as we think.

    But yes interesting question as it seems like an anomaly.

  105. @Jack D

    You have to look at whom amongst them we’re bringing over. I would bet the whole of India has an average IQ similar to Mexico or the Philippines (perhaps mid-90s if raised and educated in the First World), but we’re getting different levels of selection from each country.

    For true average IQ it’s just educated guesswork as it’s hard to find good data. What you really need is a representative sample adopted by Western Whites. IIRC correctly Mexican adoptees were in the mid 90s while Koreans were slightly above the White average (which is the best evidence that even absent any supposed cheating Fancy Asians would still outperform Whites by some amount). Of course, children put up for adoption may not be representative of their home country, even after regression to the mean.

    My experience with Indians in the Bay Area is that they or their parents were pretty near the top before immigrating. It shows in their children. I thought I read somewhere that Indians are now the highest scoring group?

  106. @Buffalo Joe

    One paradox of American life is the scarcity of skilled artisans that are easy to find in less affluent countries.

    For example, if I want to have tailoring done here in Connecticut or New York, I have to pay a lot of money, and there aren’t very many people around who can do it. In Romania, my wife’s family have a friend in a nearby apartment who will fit entire suits to me for $20 each. I bring them over from America. He has also tailored leather jackets for me and fur coats for my wife. People like him are common there.

    Companies craft fine leather apparel there, shoes and coats that get trucked to Italy where famous design houses sew their tags into them. We wear a few of those nice things, minus the fancy labels. We picked them up at the factories for, say $100 instead of $1000.

    Also, both of my brothers-in-law over there own BMWs, and they can get them fixed and maintained for peanuts, even when the costs are adjusted for income levels and currency. Here, where I’ve owed two, not so much. Same for Mercedes.

    And don’t get me started on how cheap things like cell phone service, internet and cable are for them, even adjusted for income and currency conversion.

    We are getting ripped off here, and hardly any of the profit trickles down. Same goes for pharmaceuticals.

    And again, skilled workers are becoming a rarity here while some poorer countries are putting us to shame in that area. But hey, every American has the right to go to college and go into six figures of debt and then work at Starbucks. “What a country!”

  107. @Bardon Kaldian

    I only come here for the cat gifs, but I will point out that what matters is how many outliers a country has. Iran, India and the United States all have plenty of very bright people in their populations.

    Total numbers of bright people are what matter.

    Contrast those to Haiti: exclusively sub-Saharan African, a shithole. Same goes for pretty much any sub-Saharan African country that lacks a significant number of bright people to build and maintain modern things.

    You are getting lost in the weeds.

    But again, I only come here for the cat gifs. Thanks.

  108. @nebulafox

    I’ve only managed to visit Bali.

    The folks there are so warm and welcoming I struggled to determine if they were faking it or not.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  109. @Twinkie

    Thanks for the great afternoon entertainment!

    The Army guy is not nearly as quick as he thinks he is.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Twinkie
  110. The Philippines is Latin America in Asia – the similarities are a little obscured because the Spanish language never quite took hold. But Latin Americans and Filipinos have a whole lot in common (and why wouldn’t they?). Their closest European equivalents are probably the Catholic Irish.

    • Agree: Coemgen, JMcG
  111. anon[104] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    You could save a lot of time and keystrokes by just typing “I don’t have any idea what g is, don’t understand the normal distribution and I really have no clue what Variance means”. That would free up much time in your day for more cat gifs.

    You’re welcome.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin, res
  112. @Jack D

    Thank you for bringing some simple, actual facts into the discussion.

    Btw, it’s “different from,” not “different to,” which makes no sense.

  113. LondonBob says:
    @jon

    Mexican food is rubbish, don’t understand the US fascination with it.

  114. LondonBob says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Elite group Indians like Jains who were expelled from Africa are no more representative than Romany Gypsies are of the subcontinent. To be fair my experience of Indians in outsourced roles are not a good one.

    • Replies: @A British Indian
  115. @Buzz Mohawk

    As someone who is paid to assist those very bright people, I would argue that my meager abilities, conscientiousness and law abidingness are also very important. I can’t imagine the managing directors at my company being supported by the average Haitian or even the average Indian.

    • Replies: @Yahya K.
  116. @International Jew

    Let’s do Antarctica: Residents of Captain Arturo Prat Base are the Latin Americans of Antarctica:
    .

    The scientists and others at the actual South Pole base are the Americans of that continent:

    • LOL: wren
  117. Sparkon says:

    I saw many fine tailor shops in Japan, especially just outside the main gates of U.S. bases there. I had several great-fitting suits tailored for $40 apiece in the late ’60s.

    During the several years I was stationed in Japan, I never saw a public fight of any kind between Japanese, and only one occasion I can recall where one Japanese raised his voice against another.

    I was sitting in an upstairs coffee shop in Sendai one warm summer night long ago. The doors leading to a small balcony were thrown open, and presently a loud, metallic, crunching sound out on the street shattered the muted conversations in the coffee shop. A few of the Japanese customers jumped up, and rushed onto the balcony. I heard one of them shout out: “Kono Yarrrou, Baka Yarroooou!” to the drunken sap who’d crashed into the customer’s car parked on the street below.

    Kono yarō – この野郎 – you idiot
    baka yarō – 馬鹿野郎 – dumb ass

    When they are angry with someone, Japanese roll or trill the ‘r’ sound, similar to the Spanish trilled ‘r’, but that is something one should never do in polite company in Japan, which is almost everywhere, or at least it was when I there.

    Then too, most foreigners have trouble pronouncing the Japanese ‘r’ sound correctly, let alone trilling it, or even speaking Japanese at all.

    https://jref.com/threads/japanese-profanity-and-the-trilled-r-sound.25924/

  118. Korean politicians were still openly shooting and killing rivals all the way up to the early 80s. assassination was a normal part of Korean politics until recently.

    head politicians who were so bad that they were forcefully thrown out of office, were still sometimes executed afterwards, all the way up until 20 years ago or so. it was only 10 years ago or so that the last person to be thrown out of office and get a death sentence, had their execution stayed, in a concession to modern norms. they were allowed to live in disgrace.

    this system is kind of the reverse of the Japanese system, where if you screwed up so bad it was a disaster, you were supposed to kill yourself. here the Koreans just made sure you were killed, and no running away or fleeing the country.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    , @Gimeiyo
  119. Mobi says:
    @International Jew

    This is a fun thread. Next, let’s do Africa. I’ll go first: the Igbo are the Armenians of Africa.

    Aren’t they commonly called ‘the Jews of Africa’?

    In a White House memo dated Tuesday, January 28, 1969 to President Nixon, former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger describes the Igbos as “the wandering Jews of West Africa-gifted, aggressive, westernized, at best envied and resented, but mostly despised by their neighbors in the federation”

    They are often very unpopular in the communities they live in, because they push very hard to make money and often dominate the retail business in alien communities. In his book, the Brutality of Nations, Dan Jacobs describes the Igbos “as ambitious, dynamic and progressive people whose education and abilities did not endear them to those among whom they lived…The Igbos have acquired the sobriquet, Jews of Africa”.

    etc,

    http://www.blackwestchester.com/jews-of-africa/2/

    • Replies: @International Jew
    , @Malla
  120. Mobi says:
    @Anonymous Jew

    Pretty spot on. I’ve noticed other similarities inline with Twinkie’s analogy. For example, the wit of Koreans and Irish (relative to their neighbors) or the way Italians and Filipinos focus on fashion and appearance.

    Ok, but Koreans’ obsession with appearances is legendary (including leading the entire planet in cosmetic surgery procedures per capita).

    Today, South Korea is widely considered the “plastic surgery capital” of the world, boasting the highest number of cosmetic procedures per capita worldwide, with more than 600 clinics in Seoul alone…

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/korea-plastic-surgery_l_5d72afb0e4b07521022c00e1

    • Thanks: Anonymous Jew
  121. @LondonBob

    I agree with your comment, but I should add that most of what passes for Mexican food in the United States is some variant of Tex-Mex. It’s heavy on the meat, cheese and refried beans. It’s just plain heavy. I can’t stand it. Probably around 80% of the Mexican restaurants in California which I’ve patronized serve it.

    But I’ve heard from sophisticated travelers to Mexico, who know what to look for, that there is excellent local food in Mexico which Americans rarely have the chance to eat in the U.S.

  122. Sideways says:

    Indonesia is more like Mexicans who rarely join gangs. It’s a poor and dirty place, but doesn’t have the dysfunction of a lot of other 3rd world countries

  123. anon[429] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Many years back, I needed to fill in a prepared document with a few typewritten legalese. I don’t have a typewriter (and don’t know how to use it, my first writing machine was a dot matrix printer). I went in search of a typist and found it almost impossible to find one. Finally I found an old polish lady at the court house who charged $20 to type 3 lines with about 3 typos per line (Granted, it was dense legalese).

  124. Marty says:
    @jon

    One of my enduring memories is sitting for a haircut from a Korean woman one block from the Berkeley campus around 1988. It went like this:

    “What you do?”

    Oh, I’m a lawyer.

    “Who you think is richest man in Berkeley?”

    Ah, I dunno – Bing Wong? (owned several laundromats)

    (angrily) “Why you say Bing Wong!!

    Turned out she was mad about a recent rent increase from her landlord, the actual richest man in Berkeley, who ran his real estate kingdom from an office directly above us.

  125. Corn says:
    @Anon

    Scandinavians (who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards):

    Assuming that’s accurate, how do the Scandis keep such nice societies going?

    • Replies: @guest
  126. @anonymous

    It’s common to hear the story of Indians in East Africa as mostly the descendants of railway laborers. But this is not true. The 19th century Indian migration to East Africa included a lot of colonial clerks and Gujarati merchants. The big Indian business houses in East Africa are owned by Gujarati families who have lived in East Africa for several generations.

    This is true, East Africa is a different kettle of fish.

    I don’t know about the migration profile of Singapore’s Indians (aside from the fact most are Tamil among multi-generation Indians).

    The vast majority of Tamils up to 1990 were descendants of indentured servants. That changed after 1990, as India became richer, opened up more and élite emigration from India started to increase. But by 1990, when Indians were just 10% shy of Chinese incomes, that was still largely a group of lower-caste Indians who rose through the ranks.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  127. BS says:
    @Thoughts

    As the old saying goes: the Japanese are clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. The Chinese are dirty on the outside, but clean on the inside. The Koreans are dirty inside and out!

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  128. Filipinos are more like the Spanish or Portuguese.

    Italians are considered cool and stylish, but there’s nothing cool or hip about Filipinos. Italians have big egos and tempers and kill each other, but Filipinos are good natured on average and don’t have big egos. Italian food is famous and everywhere, Filipino food like Spanish and Portuguese food is not a big hit, and hasn’t spread much.

    also in the US, there’s a low level battle between the Mexicans and Filipinos for service industry jobs and blue collar jobs. they occupy a similar economic space in first world economies. this makes them somewhat more like Mexicans functionally, but they are less criminal or violent, and don’t drink and drive as much.

  129. Mr. Anon says:
    @Coag

    Yes, despite also being an “island people”, I always thought the Japanese had more in common with the Germans than with the English – ernest, diligent, smart, and with a rather crude, physical sense-of-humor. Mind you, those similarities only go so far. Asians are just a lot different than Europeans.

  130. @Anon

    Filipinos have a higher per capita income than Koreans

    Indeed and Filipinos are genetically very close to Malays and Indonesians. Malaysia is on the cusp of being developed, but that is usually explained away by the HBD crowd through the presence of a large Chinese minority. That excuse doesn’t exist in either the Philippines or Indonesia, and they are both clocking in consistently good growth rates for the past few decades. There are good reasons to be optimistic about the whole ASEAN/South-East Asian region IMHO.

  131. @Johnny Smoggins

    Smogs, never dated an Asian, but I thought the Thai women were hot and there is something very attractive about the pettite Japanese women.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @White Guy In Japan
  132. @Bardon Kaldian

    I had expected better thinking from you, Bardon.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  133. @I, Libertine

    I, Italians grocers in the north end of Boston aren’t exactly clones of Mother Teresa, but I think some of the rudeness was an act.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    , @Jack D
  134. Yahya K. says:
    @Anonymous Jew

    As someone who is paid to assist those very bright people, I would argue that my meager abilities, conscientiousness and law abidingness are also very important. I can’t imagine the managing directors at my company being supported by the average Haitian or even the average Indian.

    The top executives of a company probably range 130-135 in IQ. The helpers would be somewhere in the 120s.

    Assuming African-American mean IQ is 85, and SD is around 12.5 (different studies range from 11-14), the total proportion of US blacks with IQ120+ is 0.255%, meaning 102,205 out of the 40M Blacks in the US have an IQ of 120 and above. That’s low compared to European-American numbers, but still enough to to fill in some moderately high-functioning roles like doctors, accountants, researchers etc.

    You’d need 130+IQ to fill in engineering, science or business executive roles though. If we are talking about the IQ130+ range, the number of US blacks in that category falls off a cliff to 6,364. Many of them are probably half white too, like Obama. But occasionally you’ll see your Thomas Sowell’s every now and again.

    There are way more Iranians and Indians in these categories than blacks. We don’t have good data on mean IQs for both these populations, but if I were to guess Iran would be 96-97, while India would be somewhere around 92-93. Again, that’s lower than European numbers, but if you multiply them out to their large populations, you’ll get more than enough bright people to run a modern industrial economy.

    It’s worth mentioning that Iran is still producing aorund $17,000 GDP per capita even when under heavy international sanctions. India is on the path to growth after being mired down in a malthusian trap for many centuries.

    • Replies: @Malla
  135. @IHTG

    2 things are happening in that graph.

    1. Women use anti depressants way more than men.
    2. Whites use anti depressants a lot more than nonwhites.

    I wonder why.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  136. @Johnny Smoggins

    Having lived and travelled extensively in Asia, my vote goes to northern China with Japan the runner up.

    I vote for South Korea, based on the racing model and Kpop videos pushed by the YouTube algorithms.

  137. @Daniel Chieh

    What can I say, life is full of disappointments.

    Anyway, I’ve said it long time ago, and haven’t found a reason to change my opinion…

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, as the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 5-10. And those, say, 8 types of giftedness cannot be, reasonably, manipulated to give a single figure..

    To “extract” one figure from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals.

  138. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Just glad they become prosperous enough under US military protection, to overthrow their dictatorship, which persisted into the 1980’s, and stopped sending dry cleaners to the US.

    Korean immigration largely ended 15 years ago.

    • Replies: @jon
    , @nebulafox
  139. BB753 says:
    @International Jew

    I beg to differ! The Armenians of West Africa are the……Lebanese!
    In turn, the Lebanese are the Jews of Brazil.

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  140. @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz, my grandmother’s brother, on my father’s side, stayed in NYC after Ellis Island. He was a tailor and partnered with two Jewish tailors to found GGG Clothiers. I remember being 10 or 12 and having a blazer customed fitted to me while visiting NYC. Company still exists, last owned by Martin Greenfield, Bill Clinton’s tailor. Back in the day there was a scoreboard ad at Ebbetts Field sponsored by Abe Starks. At the end of his ad, on both ends, was the GGG logo (three cursive Gs) in a square. Signage said:”Hit this box,Win a suit.” The Ebbetts Field scoreboard was the famous Schaefer Beer scoreboard. My great uncle changed his Italian name to a Jewish name and learned yiddish. We called him “Jewish Uncle Henry.” You can probably find a photo of the scoreboard on line. And as a kid, the shoemaker on Bailey Avenue, my neighborhood in Buffalo, actually made shoes. And watchmakers could make you a time piece and the optician could grind your lenses.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @JMcG
    , @Dissident
  141. @slumber_j

    I always remember P.J. describing in that piece how the Korean student rioters would sometimes actually bite off the tops of their own finger and use the resulting blood to write pro-whatever-their-cause-was graffiti, and how he said “Talk about something fucking foreign.”

    • Agree: slumber_j
    • Replies: @slumber_j
  142. @Buzz Mohawk

    Thanks Buzz. Whichever our differences may be- I’ve always felt your moral support.

  143. @Zpaladin

    I thought about this for awhile but I don’t think this is accurate, since Korea hasn’t been invaded by China in over a thousand years and essentially the entire Korean state as we know of exists because of Chinese intervention for the Silla(who would go on to found Korea) against the Baekje(who were supported by the Japanese). A similar dynamic would happen again during the Imjin War.

    Korea also likes to indicate that they are the most Confucian nation, more so than China itself and arguably this isn’t a lie – Korea had indeed moved into a genuine scholar caste system while China while nominally adhering to Confucianism, was rather militant and spent most of say, the Ming dynasty at war(probably true of every Chinese dynastic era).

    I think at some point, Korea decided to co-exist with China but has never been able to handle Japan well. In no small part this is due to the Chinese system giving a sphere for Korea to exist in, while the Japanese system repeatedly threatens their existence on both a metaphoric and material way. The Koreans are most directly the victims of Japanese aggression: the targets of the wokou, invasion in the 1500s, and of course, invasion in the 1900s. They suffer Chinese demands more indirectly – forced to assist in the invasion of Japan twice, generalized Chinese arrogance, etc.

    Baekje’s strong Japanese assistance indicates a possible historical reason for this: there may have been a genuine strength of Yamato colonists in prehistory, and they were driven from the land. And Asians have insanely long memories.

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Gimeiyo
    , @Malla
    , @Twinkie
  144. The Irish analogy is a good one. The Koreans drink more liquor per capita than any other nation. And they are also exceptionally good at feeling sorry for themselves. There is Korean concept called “Han” which is difficult to explain to non-Koreans. I guess it could be described as a weighty sadness, or a gnawing sense that a great personal injustice had been done to oneself. It is ever-present like an itch that can’t be scratched.

  145. @Mobi

    Well, ok, but Armenians have played the role of market intermediary minority too, especially in Turkey and the Balkans.

    The Liberians are the African Americans of Africa.

  146. Wency says:
    @I, Libertine

    I’m reminded of the time I visited Yale as a high school senior. Some schlubby dad from Ohio was trying to get change for a dollar to feed the parking meter outside the admissions office (which apparently had no free parking).

    The tone with which the admissions woman dismissed him could just as well have been spoken by an empress addressing a pig farmer asking to hop along for a ride in her carriage:

    “It is not *OUR* responsibility to provide *CHANGE* to *YOU*.”

    My opinion of the Ivy League never really recovered.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  147. Truth says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    He’s never been in a fight before either.

  148. @Jack D

    It’s probably all that Dutch diary. I know plenty of Asians and other migrants whose children are shooting up like green sprouts. The majority of them end up much taller than their parents, especially the boys. As far as I know, the Japanese definitely do not consume as much milk as the Dutch do. Future generations of Dutchmen might be less tall though, because the trend of diary consumption is apparently going downwards in favor of plant- and nut-based milk thanks to climate change activism.

  149. anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Coag

    In the early 90’s when I visited Japan, I noticed there were all these cards all over the phone booths, with pictures of girls and their phone number, many of them said “Student”. I thought that was strange until a local explained to me they were all prostitutes, and that there are a string of hotels in Japan that rent rooms by the hour.

    While flipping channels in my hotel room, I stumbled across a Japanese porn where a couple discussed their finances in excruciating detail while having sex, it was so bizarre. I guess that’s what you called Japanese “practical mindedness”?

    I don’t know what you meant by “repressed”. Seems to me Japanese are quite open about sex. They have a very utilitarian attitude about it. It seems commonly accepted for Japanese men to visit prostitutes or have mistresses. There is a seedy underbelly in Japan – the Yakuza runs the prostitution ring, gambling and drug trade, and are allowed to operate freely because they are in tight with the government, similar to the triads in Taiwan and the Jopok in S.Korea. This is not at all in keeping with the Protestant ethics observed by the Germans or the English.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    , @bomag
  150. @kihowi

    Within the United States, the two phallic-shaped states of California and Florida produce the vast majority of perverted content.

    Los Angeles and Miami alone churn out more porn than the rest of the world put together.

  151. Great list by Twinkie, but I have a couple of quibbles. Apologies if another poster has already covered these points upthread and I just missed them.

    I lived in Taiwan for a number of years and so I was quite surprised by Twinkie’s description of it:

    Taiwanese = If the Chinese are Asian Russians, the Taiwanese are Asian Serbo-Croats. They do well economically, but have the highest murder rate in East Asia.

    I looked up the Wikipedia stats for homicide rate by country and found the following for East Asia. All the stats are taken from the UNODC. I’ve included Singapore (because of its mostly East Asian population) as well as the U.S., Germany, Serbia, and Croatia (for comparisons). All the countries outside of East Asia are in italics.

    Singapore – 0.16

    Japan – 0.26

    Macau – 0.32

    China – 0.53

    Croatia – 0.58

    South Korea – 0.60

    Hong Kong – 0.65

    Taiwan – 0.82

    Germany – 0.95

    Serbia – 1.23

    North Korea – 4.40

    United States – 4.96

    Mongolia – 6.18 (The heirs of Genghis Khan hard at work.)

    Some random comments about the list above.

    * It’s easy to forget that Mongolia is geographically part of East Asia. Some might argue that it’s more a part of Central Asia because of the Eurasian Steppe, and should be grouped with the -stans, even if they are muslim-majority countries and Mongolia is not. But since the UN includes it as an East Asian country, I’ve included it here.

    * North Korea is another obvious outlier in so many ways. How did the UN even get a homicide rate from the Hermit Kingdom? Can the stat be trusted? Or is it puffed-up by political executions in which murder has been used as the justification for the state offing someone who is not guilty of another crime? I didn’t dig into it, and I don’t really care.

    * Because of Mongolia and North Korea, Taiwan does not have the highest homicide rate in East Asia. But I see what Twinkie was getting at, given the qualifications I made about North Korea and Mongolia above.

    * And I was quite surprised to see that Taiwan’s homicide rate is above South Korea’s and China’s. My experience is that Taiwan is incredibly safe. I felt much safer in Taiwan than I did in China or even Macau and Hong Kong – although I want to quickly point out that I never felt unsafe anywhere in East Asia. I’ve never traveled to Korea, but my general impression, through secondhand sources, was that South Korea was a more violent place than Taiwan. I had assumed until now that included the homicide rate.

    * I was also greatly surprised to see that Taiwan’s homicide rate is not significantly different from the combined rates of Serbia and Croatia. Taiwan has a very low homicide rate, even if it is higher than every other developed country/city in East Asia, but Serbia and Croatia certainly have much lower homicide rates than I had assumed. So what I thought was a slur by Twinkie against my beloved Taiwan ends up being pretty accurate as far as homicide rates go.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Jack D
  152. JMcG says:
    @kihowi

    That’s an interesting statement. I’m too old to have caught the Internet porn wave, but I wouldn’t have named Germany or Japan. England and France I think would have filled out my top three. I was in Paris in the early eighties and it seemed like porn mags were everywhere.

  153. JMcG says:
    @Adam Smith

    That’s horrifying. And depressing. Thank God I’m not an Indian. There’s a scene in one of the splendid Aubrey-Maturin novels where Dr. Maturin befriends a little Dalit girl. He makes a gift of three silver bracelets to her. She promptly ends up murdered by her jealous friends. Patrick O’Brian certainly had a clear-eyed view of human nature.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  154. JMcG says:
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    I knew a Filipino kid who road tripped with the dead for a couple of summers in the 80’s.

  155. @Pincher Martin

    Mongolia tfr at 2.9 is also an East Asian outlier.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
  156. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe


    BTW they are bringing Schaefer Beer back.

    It would have been very unusual for an American watchmaker to make a complete watch from scratch although there were guys in Switzerland who did such stuff (although even they might have bought certain components). The problem is that to get such a watch fixed, you have to take it back to the same guy or someone with similar skills. Each watch was as different as a snowflake and you couldn’t swap parts from one to the other.

    Americans, using their experience in gun manufacturing, pioneered the manufacturing of factory made watch movements using interchangeable parts in the middle of the 19th century. Such watches could be assembled and repaired quickly and inexpensively by less highly trained people. In the 19th century such factory made products were (rightly) viewed as being far superior to hand made watches. In those days, the Swiss would make counterfeit American watch movements for this reason.

    However, mechanical watches required frequent cleaning and lubrication and repair (especially in the days before waterproof and shockproof watches), which involves tearing the watch down to its individual component parts and then putting it back together and every jeweler would have a watchmaker on staff who could do this. And despite what I said above, repair might involve having to customize or fabricate certain parts. This required a very high level of skill, just a few notches below the skills that would be needed to build an entire watch from scratch.

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
    • Replies: @prosa123
  157. Gimeiyo says:
    @jon

    Koreans weren’t like that in the 19th century. I mean, there have been powerful hatreds between regions of Korea for a long time, and there’s long running family feuds (e.g. the almost 400 year feud between the Yoons and Shims over a graveyard). But the sort of violent macho culture you see in Korea today is completely different from what European visitors to Korea (e.g. Lord Curzon) observed in the 19th century, which was much more effete (although political assassination,
    murder, and execution were common).

    I think the change started during modernisation, then continued under Japanese rule. Japan proper was basically under the control of the Imperial Army from 1936-1945. Korea was under the control of the Army from 1910-1945. And the Army introduced a brutal culture of violent discipline and macho posturing. 絶対服従 (absolute obedience) in tension with 下剋上 (the low rebelling against the high).

    After independence, there was the Korean War, and incompetent and corrupt independence activists looted the country. And then in 1961, a cadre of formal Imperial officers led by Park Chunghee seized power and modeled their economic development plan after the policies of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. Combined with the period of direct Japanese rule, I think the culture of the Imperial Army had an enormous effect on Korea, probably more pervasive than any other country including Japan.

    That said, the military government post 1979 was a lot gentler on social issues (e.g. policemen didn’t go around forcibly cutting men’s long hair). And now, 30 years after the end of the dictatorship, I think that Japanese army influence is a lot weaker now. The army is a lot less brutal than it used to be (less or no corporal punishment), and while younger Korean men still put on a pretty macho affect compared to Chinese and Japanese, they’re richer and softer than they used to be.

    • Thanks: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Sam Malone
  158. anon[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Too much is made of IQ tests. All they measure is the raw mental ability to do academic work . which makes sense because academics design the tests. There are mental abilities that come into play in life that IQ tests don’t even touch. eg Someone with a 180 IQ might be a Harvard English prof, he can’t write a best selling novel.

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
  159. OT: Part-Indonesian Eddie Van Halen is dead at 65.

  160. Gimeiyo says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Korea technically hasn’t been invaded by China in over 1,000 years, if you don’t count the Qing dynasty as “China” (invaded 1627 and 1636, reduced Joseon Korea to a tributary of the Qing and forced the king to kowtow). After that, why would they bother to invade? The Independence Gate in Seoul (completed 1897) celebrates Korea’s independence from the Qing, in 1895.

  161. @Chrisnonymous

    not sure about that…

    Intentional homicides per 100,000*:

    Mexico: 29.07

    Philippines: 6.46

    My personal observations when living on the west coast around lots of both support the above.

    *
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  162. @William Badwhite

    Mexico is more dangerous than many warzones.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  163. Singapore, the fine city …

  164. @SunBakedSuburb

    “Irish creativity flourishing under Anglo tutelage? It worked for Bram Stoker.”

    Not to mention the O’Brunty family, though they had to change the name to Bronte.

    The Irish creativity that flourished in the 19th century was mostly Protestant Irish – much more Catholic in the 20th.

    Incidentally I hadn’t realised how much the Plantation Of Ulster was a Scots project, not a British one – James VI had only been James I of England for a year in 1604. It followed a failed attempt to do the same to Lewis, where the climate and poor soil as well as the natives defeated them. The funny thing was that while maybe 20,000 Scots were in Ulster by 1630, 30,000 had gone to Poland, with more following in later decades. They left a far bigger imprint on Ulster than on Poland methinks. Had no idea either that Bonnie Prince Charlie was half-Polish!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Clementina_Sobieska

  165. guest says:

    @Steve-

    Speaking of Indonesians, I notice Eddie Van Halen is dead. I always wondered why more was never made of the fact that the Brothers Van Halen were about half-Javanese? With a bone fide Tiger Mommy who forced them to train on the piano.

    I mean, we get the whole Immigrant Narrative and American Dream thing with them. But it’s focused on their paternal Dutch origins, and last time I checked the Dutch are white. Ew.

  166. Matra says:
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Bram Stoker wasn’t of the same stock as the typical Irishman.

  167. anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    I would say these are rather astute observations. Nicely done.

    How would you describe Singapore, Taiwan and HK? Sri Lanka?

    I think at their best, Chinese are like the Germans – high general IQ, industrious, practical minded, good at building and making things, upwardly mobile.

    At their worst, they are like the Greek and Italians, imminently corruptible, sloppy.

    As far as Chinese in SEA resembling Jews as some here pointed out, I would say there’s a major difference: Chinese aren’t at all politically ambitious like the Jews. They don’t care much about politically organizing themselves. It’s also their downfall. They have the economic power, but not political power.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    , @Malla
  168. Jack D says:
    @Pincher Martin

    National average murder statistics can be highly deceiving, especially in ethnically and economically mixed countries. In the US for example, the national average is a blend of the black homicide rate (incredibly high) and the much lower rates for everyone else. There are also big differences between social classes, people who are or are not involved in the drug trade, whether the people killed are more likely to be family members vs. victims of street crime, city vs. countryside, regional differences, etc. which all get blended into a single #.

    I suspect Taiwan has its own dynamics (though nothing as stark as the black/white differences in the US) such that your feeling of being incredibly safe in Taiwan was not wrong, despite its relatively high murder rate. If you were a member of a Taiwanese organized crime gang or an abused wife, etc. your risk profile would be very different than that of a Western tourist.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  169. Gimeiyo says:

    Re: Japan and Savile Row — American trad is also popular in Japan. A Japanese company bought J. Press back in the 80s. A little surprised they didn’t pick up Brooks Brothers. But all kinds of styles are popular in Japan. I get my suits made at a shop that does a decent imitation Italian, with the unpadded shirt-style shoulders.

  170. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous Jew

    For example, the wit of Koreans and Irish

    I have never bought this ‘wit of the Irish’ claim. They are mostly a load of short-tempered, psychotic, god-bothering bog trotters.
    All that crap with green bowler hats and bewhiskered blarney is just a PR front.
    It is no coincidence that the favoured nocturnal eating chain in Dublin – Abrakebabra – is universally known as Abrakestabra.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  171. Anonymous[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Roderick Spode

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29929333

    Fine judges of character the Koreans, I have always thought that.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  172. Some Indonesians are flirting with hangul, the Korean alphabet:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cia-Cia_language

  173. prosa123 says:
    @Foreign Expert

    Very true about Filipinos and cruise ships. On our Royal Caribbean cruises in 2016 and 2017 the crew members had name badges with their countries of origin, and Filipinos were by far in first place with Indians a distant second. One thing that contributed to size of the gap is that the Filipinos included both men and women while the Indians were men only. There also was a curiously high number of Vincentians, pretty strange for such a tiny country.
    Of course there isn’t much cruise ship work today.

    • Replies: @Corn
    , @Anonymous
  174. prosa123 says:
    @Jack D

    Back in those days winning an off-the-rack suit would have been a nice perk for a MLB ballplayer. Today a player could have a dozen Saville Row suits custom made without giving it a second thought.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  175. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Well Joe, at last I have you beat. I dated a Fipino girl years and years ago. She took me to a pool party on Memorial Day weekend in 88 or 89. There were five or six Filipino guys, me with my green eyes, and around thirty Filipino girls in bikinis. I didn’t dare let the water get less than waist deep.
    I can tell you with great certitude why Fletcher Christian pushed Captain Bligh into that boat.

    • LOL: Buffalo Joe
  176. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Schaeffer .. is the.. one beer to have.. when you’re having more than one!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  177. @Jack D

    I agree with almost everything you write, but ….

    I lived in Taiwan for more than ten years and I notice patterns. Taiwan’s population is almost entirely made up of Han people, but there are many subdivisions in that broad category that matter for various reasons. But I never saw anything that pertained to crime rates. Even the small aboriginal population, which I’m sure is more prone to crime than are most Chinese, didn’t stand out in the way that blacks or even southern whites stand out in the U.S. But maybe I missed something.

    In any case, the difference between Taiwan and, say, South Korea or Hong Kong’s homicide rates is marginal enough that I’m not sure one could feel it at the street level even if one were native to one of those countries. Taiwan has gangs, but so do Hong Kong, Macau, and China. None of them anywhere use murder as a common tactic in their business model. Chicago has had more murders this year than Hong Kong has had over the last twelve years, and the Windy City has fewer people than Hong Kong.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Jew
    , @1661er
  178. Thomm says:
    @Jack D

    their poverty and backwardness was not genetic. Feed them a better diet and send them to school in the West and they do great.

    Careful. I said something similar just a couple of times three years ago, and Ron Unz latched onto it to brand me a ‘South Asian’, which he knew I obviously am not (as is abundantly evident from my full body of comments here).

    A lot of the 70-IQ White Trashionalists over here memorized that, and blindly parrot the same meme, even though Ron Unz later admitted that he knew I wasn’t a South Asian, and just put that out there so that his marks (the WNs) get distracted and don’t see what the primary purpose of this website is (which I have elaborated on in the past, and actively endorse).

    Recently, Thulean Friend, Canspeecy, Thorfinsson, and even Twinkie (LOL!) were also accused of being ‘South Asians’, which none of them are, so the same could happen to you just for saying one or two less-than-negative things about that group.

    I have also been accused of being Jewish and (once) Chinese, but the ‘South Asian’ narrative is one that Ron Unz engineered deliberately, and thus stuck in the minds of his manipulated marks.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @jon
  179. EldnahYm says:
    @Rahan

    I suspect the anon poster you’re responding to is Sam Coulton/John Plywood, a troll who is deliberately trying to mislead people. The data being of low quality is a feature. He has posted this image before:

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/why-cant-i-find-a-german-egg-donor/#comment-3696844

    • Thanks: Rahan
  180. anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @EdwardM

    I think of Filipinos as closer in kin to Polynesians than to other East Asians and Southeast Asians — a country full of lazy coconut bloodclots. Philippines and Thailand are two countries where the men live off their women, often by abusing them. Both countries are known for their prostitution. Philippines is also known for mail order brides, domestic servants, and in the US, nurses and elementary teachers — all are professions done by women. Even married women in the Philippines have to leave to go work as domestic workers in other countries and send home money to feed the husband and the kids. In any society where the men do not step up to take care of their women and children, you know they’ll always be backward and poor.

    Aside from prostitution, Thailand has a very prominent drug trade around the “Golden Triangle”, its border with Laos and Myanmar. The drug gangs in Thailand operate with the kind of brutality and viciousness on par with Mexican drug cartels. Thailand is actually a scary, high crime country.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  181. Art Deco says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Hypothesis:

    Consulting mental health tradesmen is less status-lowering and less injurious to your self-image for women than for men and for whites as opposed to others. Prescribing psychotropics is now bog standard for psychiatrists among the mental health tradesmen (rather like GPs doing tonsillectomies ca. 1935).

    A regard for appearances is not the best reason to do something or to refrain from doing something, but it can commonly generate better outcomes than the exhibitionism of our time. In this case, the better outcome would be avoiding drug dependency and other iatrogenic problems).

    (For all the manpower society devotes to ‘mental health services’, the discernible effect on the suicide rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of diddly / squat).

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  182. Filipinos = Asian Italians. Catholics who keep their heads down and do trade/service labor with good cheer. A little on the slow side.

    Italians might be a ridiculous people, but they are also quite accomplished. They’ve had more than one golden age, made tremendous contributions to both math and physics, etc. Just because they are short and showy doesn’t mean they are stupid…. they are just manlets.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  183. anon[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    IQ is a somewhat narrow way to measure intelligence. It is measuring the raw ability to understand and complete academic material. There are other mental abilities that don’t make the their way on to IQ tests
    eg A 180 IQ Yale English prof never writes a great novel

  184. Dmitry says:
    @Malla

    In my opinion, the only nationality in Asia which seems close to a civilized Western European level, is Japan. Mainland Chinese culture still seems around a century behind Europe in various ways, trivial or not.

    Japan seems to be at a Western European civilization level, while our impression of mainland China’s civilization level is maybe at the level of Turkey or the Balkans.

    It might seem a trivial example. But in relation to how youth are taught about cleaning,.

    Wealthy mainland Chinese students are supposedly famous in England, for being not taught to clean their houses. So the mainland Chinese students developed an infamous reputation for lack of cleaning.

    (Commentators claiming this is not untypical experience from mainland Chinese students).

    On the other hand, Japanese had developed the opposite reputation. For example, Japanese were shocking Russia, by cleaning the football stadiums after World Cup football games.

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @Yahya K.
    , @Half-Jap
    , @nebulafox
  185. guest says:
    @Corn

    By not actually being that dumb.

    • Agree: black sea
  186. guest says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    You may have learned in history class that the U.S. has some ties to England.

  187. @prosa123

    prosa, if I remember correctly, Dodger outfielders got special perks from Abe Stark for keeping balls from hitting the sign. Today’s athletes probably can’t wear an off the rack suit. Too muscular.

  188. @JMcG

    JMcG, I remember the jingle but don’t think I ever had one. Locally, we as teens, started with Genesee beer and the “Jenny” ad girls was hot, but a cartoon. Iroquois and Carling Black Label…”Mabel. Mabel, Carlings’ Black Label”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @PiltdownMan
  189. @anon

    TwoSixZero, you listened to the dialogue in a porn movie?

    • LOL: bomag
  190. anon[280] • Disclaimer says:

    Japanese resemble Britons. Japan was an unimportant island off Asia’s coast and whose written history didn’t even start until around 400 AD. They don’t quite consider themselves Asian in the way Britons don’t consider themselves European. Japan is the only non-Western country that has
    seamlessly been able to adapt to the modern (post 1500) world

    Chinese are like Iranians. Individually they can do well in the West but their home countries are despotic, savage and autocratic. Both Iran and China have long histories of civilization achievement but turned to dust when confronted by the modern West

    Koreans are Chinese who have the potential to be Japanese, but can easily go the other way eg. North Korea

    Mongolians are Russians. Wild and pastoral , but smart.

    Vietnamese are like Turks. Not quite East Asian (European) but can function in a civilized society

    Indians can be broken down in to several nationalities

  191. @Thulean Friend

    That excuse doesn’t exist in either the Philippines or Indonesia,

    Ahem:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Indonesians

    • Agree: SOL
  192. @Hapalong Cassidy

    And they are also exceptionally good at feeling sorry for themselves. There is Korean concept called “Han” which is difficult to explain to non-Koreans. I guess it could be described as a weighty sadness, or a gnawing sense that a great personal injustice had been done to oneself. It is ever-present like an itch that can’t be scratched.

    Fuckin’ A. That’s our Twinkie!

    Another commenter described him as having “wounded pride”. Can confirm.

    Check my (recent) comment history for examples.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  193. @Buffalo Joe

    I had some shirts and my wife, some blouses made while we were in Hong Kong. I thought they were high quality, especially at the price.

    A Hawaiian haole friend told me of a haole friend of his who grew up in a Chinese neighborhood on Oahu and spoke Cantonese like a native.

    Apparently there was, and may still be, a Hong Kong “tradition” of asking visitors their departure date, and timing the service to completed immediately before, leaving the customer with no time to complain about the slapdash work they’d rushed through the night before. One tailor pulled this trick on the white Oahuan.

    When he came to pick up his suit, he was dissatisfied and told them so. The proporietor apologized but said it was too late to make repairs. At this point, his assistant appeared asking for help in the back. He was told, “I’ll be right in, once I’m done with this idiot.”

    They hear, in perfect Cantonese: “I am not an idiot, and I demand my suit be done right!” With faces as red as Chinamen’s get, they dropped everything and made amends.

    • Thanks: Dissident
  194. @anon

    “Someone with a 180 IQ might be a Harvard English prof, he can’t write a best selling novel.”

    Then there was Erich Segal (1937-2010), a professor of classics, primarily at Yale, although he also taught at Harvard and Princeton. He authored several books of classical scholarship (Roman comedy, Greek tragedy, that sort of thing). He also wrote a little novel called Love Story. When Paramount Pictures decided to make it into a movie, Segal wrote the screenplay.

    I don’t know if his IQ was as high as 180, but whatever it was, he used every point of it.

  195. @Anonymous

    That story is even funnier because the Koreans are rather hard drinkers in their own right.

  196. @Blinky Bill

    Nowadays Rwanda is the Prussia of Africa. Small state heavily focused on economic developmental and maintaining a strong military after a bloody war-quite similar to Brandenburg’s situation after the Thirty Years War.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  197. @Buffalo Joe

    Italians have a faux machismo and toughness to them. Very surly, abrasive, and obnoxious.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Buffalo Joe
  198. JMcG says:
    @Anonymous

    Dublin, sir, is not really Ireland.

  199. Muggles says:
    @LondonBob

    Mexican food is rubbish, don’t understand the US fascination with it.

    This coming with the screen name “LondonBob’! Ha!

    No wonder curry has become the UK national dish. “Bubble & Squeak”?

    From UK Celtic stock myself, who likes roast beef and potatoes, I didn’t find the food in the UK very appealing. The better stuff was all continental adaptation.

    US “Mexican food” can be varied. The closer to Mexico you are, the better. Up North, no.

    Even in the US the TX Mex is different from Cali Mex. And yes, as some say, actual Mexican food is different and often better. South Mexico, seafood Mexico, all good.

    A lot of “Mexican” food in the US was invented here. Now, don’t get me started on “Canadian” food, whatever that is supposed to be. That is one kind of restaurant I’ve never seen in the US.

  200. @EldnahYm

    When Singapore was still giving out scholarships to ASEAN students like candy, Vietnamese students usually did very well, on par with the Indonesian Chinese and Malaysian Chinese. A lot of them aim to study in US universities, but a fair number end up studying in Singapore local Unis and got chinese partners, especially the girls.

    I can’t really distinguish the Vietnamese from Chinese, but my wife can (something about the flat nose-forehand area). I think it’s a woman thing.

  201. Muggles says:
    @prime noticer

    this system is kind of the reverse of the Japanese system, where if you screwed up so bad it was a disaster, you were supposed to kill yourself. here the Koreans just made sure you were killed, and no running away or fleeing the country.

    Well, that certainly explains North Korea.

    I recall watching S. Korean political riots that were very organized by highly disciplined factions. I think at dinner time they all took their battle sticks home and had supper. There’s riot time and there’s family time.

  202. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    You didn’t miss anything.

    Ballantine Ale was not bad at a time when most American beers were adjunct lagers.

  203. @Bardon Kaldian

    Agreed, IQ tests are reductive. But consider the beneficiaries. Employers, schools, and the military, among others. The benefit is an inexpensive test that will provide a small number of false positives, with this group including people who tested for threshold IQ but lack other essential characteristics. The false negatives, including those failed to test for threshold IQ but have essential characteristics, are lost benefit, but the loss may not equal the cost required to implement a more expensive test. Those “losers” will be inspired to create gifts for the world. Or not. Collateral damage. The people who really need efficient screening devices to discriminate across important variables will always find a way to implement them. It’s who we are.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  204. @Anon

    One possibility is that South China was less affected by conflict compared to the North, since northern barbarian invaders from even further up North was a perennial issue.

    The one thing that always struck me about pre-modern China was the sheer pain court officials had to endure whenever they get posted to a new place – they had to learn the local dialect fast.

  205. jon says:
    @Anonymous

    Korean immigration largely ended 15 years ago.

    Largely, but not entirely. I’ll personally be bringing over one and two or three halves in a few years.

  206. J.Ross says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Koreans are very similar to Poles (but with far greater recent success):
    –intense Christianity
    –surrounded by enemies
    –autistic/mentally rigid/considered insane by neighbors
    –history of invasion/occupation/division
    –drinking
    –diet prominently relies on garlic and cabbage
    –there is a Polish concept very similar to what he describes here, I forget its name but it gets mentioned to explain things like the collapse of decadent elites and the repeated partition of the territory (cf play “The Wedding”)

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  207. Gimeiyo says:
    @prime noticer

    this system is kind of the reverse of the Japanese system, where if you screwed up so bad it was a disaster, you were supposed to kill yourself. here the Koreans just made sure you were killed, and no running away or fleeing the country.

    There’s a lot of high profile suicides in Korea, but it’s usually to avoid shame and public disgrace rather than to take responsibility. E.g. the mayor of Seoul earlier this year (prominent male feminist whose longtime sexual harassment of his secretary was about to be exposed), former President Roh Moohyun (sanctimonious leftist whose family’s corruption was about to be exposed), or the owner of that ferry that capsized and killed hundreds of schoolchildren. On the other hand, there are some whose suicide is more in the “taking responsibility” vein, e.g. Roh Hoechan (progressive activist and ally of President Moon Jaein, implicated in an opinion rigging scandal, whose suicide note was a confession and apology).

    But Korea’s astronomical suicide rate is mostly made up of ordinary people in despair.

  208. Jack D says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    With the Koreans it is not an act.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Twinkie
  209. @Malla

    Yours is closer to what my friends and I came up with in High School 20+ years ago.

    • Thanks: Malla
  210. @Muggles

    The very underrated (and dryly hilarious) Gremlins 2 had a scene set in a popular “Canadian” restaurant in NYC, meant to make fun of city folk who go bananas over the latest “foreign” restaurant:

    Also, US Mexican food varies strictly on the number of Mexicans in the area, not border distance. Colorado, which isn’t near the border, has some seriously great Mexican food because of all the Mexican immigrants there who work manual labor. Mississippi had a wave of Mexican immigrants about 70 years back, and has good tamales. And North Carolina with its chicken plucking plants has lots of Mexicans working them, which means good Mexican food.

    • Agree: Chrisnonymous
  211. jon says:
    @EdwardM

    Philippines … And the food, good god.

    It’s shocking how bad it is. On paper, it should rank among the best cuisines in the world – a tropical island country, in Asia, with a long history of Western influence. But instead, all of that potential somehow combined for this:

    • LOL: Anonymous Jew
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  212. @Wency

    I toured Yale once as part of a group. Out of all the snobby colleges I’ve toured, its tour guide came off as the most high-falutin’ and rude. Even Harvard’s tour guide was more down to Earth. Although, to be fair, Yale’s architecture and campus (from what I remember) was the most beautiful and classic (in the Oxbridge sense) I remember seeing, so I guess that snobbiness was balanced a bit.

    Funnily enough, one of the best and most pleasant tour guides I had was at Princeton. Of course, she was also a hot blond, so perhaps I was bit too forgiving of any rudeness.

    • Replies: @prosa123
  213. jon says:
    @Thomm

    just put that out there so that his marks (the WNs) get distracted and don’t see what the primary purpose of this website is (which I have elaborated on in the past, and actively endorse).

    Do tell …

  214. Corn says:
    @prosa123

    My sister and her friends went on a cruise two years ago. One steward she really liked was Colombian and she said Filipinos and Indonesians were numerous.

    One thing we may forget is currency exchange rates. Sister said one night two ship crewmen -an American and a Filipino- gave a talk to a group of cruisers. The American said when he returns home from sea he basically lives a comfortable working class or maybe lower middle class lifestyle on his pay. His Filipino comrade stated that he on the other hand, lived in a nice neighborhood and had put about three kids through college back home in the Philippines.

  215. anon[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Italians have a faux machismo and toughness to them. Very surly, abrasive, and obnoxious.

    Does Chris Fredo Cuomo still take calls on his radio show? These would be excellent points to bring up.

  216. nebulafox says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Bali is not Indonesia.

    I never got to go, thanks to Jemaah Islamiyah as a kid and COVID this year.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Chrisnonymous
  217. Jmaie says:
    @Blinky Bill

    What shall we make of the UK income stats?

    Highest wage is $19, median around $15 – tells me the pay in the UK suhuuucks…

  218. @Pincher Martin

    What about the Taiwanese Aboriginal peoples? Aren’t they essentially the same as Filipinos? I wonder if they push the murder rate up.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    , @1661er
  219. @Gross Terry

    GT, Hmmmm. I grab my crotch, which is two feet from the ground and snarl…”I got yer showy right here !”

  220. @JohnnyWalker123

    JW, no Christmas card for you this year.

    • LOL: duncsbaby
  221. Jmaie says:

    Different sort of stereotype but hopefully not too far afield.

    Have read multiple stories discussing racial differences in Covid susceptibility. The medical/scientific ones discussing individual genes which are a) more prevalent in those with African ancestry and b) allowing infection from smaller viral loads. Then of course there are the NPR and general media articles assigning blame to…wait for it…racism.

    One wonders how it is that Africa seemingly has the lowest infection and fatality rate given the higher prevalence of these genes. Could it be lack of white supremacy there?

    Alternative idea – African governments are so incompetent, they failed to get the message out to their medical community that any death not proven to be from other causes should count as a Covid death.

    Just a thought.

    • Replies: @utu
  222. nebulafox says:
    @EdwardM

    I cannot say for sure because I have never been, but I think you could make the case that South Asia is equal or worse, yet no one denies that India does produce a fair chunk of extremely bright people. Anyway, the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia, believe it or not. Now Indonesia, of all places, is richer.

    As I said before, Malays and Indonesians often display the same core tendencies, though I should add in their defense that this includes the good (hyper loyalty, community values, warmth, optimism, altruism) along with the bad. Malaysia is reasonably developed, but that is largely thanks to the ethnic Chinese, and it took three decades of sometimes ruthless military dictatorship for Indonesia to get out of absolute poverty. Islam does lead to divergent outcomes that tend to be a mixed bag: on one hand, all the unpleasantness that comes with Islamic social norms, but on the other hand, none of the armies of single moms and tattoos.

    Also, the Malays/Indos have wayyy better food. Same unfortunate addiction to American junk food, though.

  223. @anon

    How strong are the Chinese ethnic networks (Fujianese, Cantonese, Hakka) in Southeast Asia these days?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  224. anonymous[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Do you have data or accounts of the origins of the Indian community as it stood around 1990 in Singapore? And, I’m not sure the extent of personal income differences of groups is a good measure for estimating differences in group intelligence. For example, the figures below for median personal incomes by race in the US are scattered. If we were to just look at the black-white gap, how much of the 20% difference in income is attributable to intelligence or are there other traits that limit the incomes of blacks? Also, one of the positive attributes of first world countries is as long as people graduate high school, work 40 hours, and don’t have non-marital children they will be middle class. Even if Tamils and other major Indian ethnic groups couldn’t build a first world country they have personality traits for thriving as a middle class if dropped into one.

    White: $33,000
    Black: $27,000
    Hispanic: $23,000

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#By_ethnicity_and_origin

  225. Anon 2 says:
    @J.Ross

    Re: Koreans are similar to Poles

    This was written by someone who knows next to nothing about either
    Poland or Korea.

    1. Intense Christianity? This deserves a separate essay but let’s not forget
    that Poland was “baptized” in 966 AD, i.e., 200-300 years after the
    Germanic tribes. As a result, “pagan” influences are still very strong.
    The belief in immanent divinity is as strong as the Christian belief in
    transcendent divinity. You might say that the Polish are as spiritual
    as they are religions, and this is where the U.S. is moving now – more
    and more people are “spiritual but not religious.” Yoga, Buddhism,
    meditation, etc are becoming very popular;

    2. History of invasions? The origins of Poland go back to 850-900 AD.
    Poland was a very successful country for at least 800 years (as the ruler
    of the vast Polish-Lithuanian Republic, Poland was the largest country
    in Europe) before it was successfully invaded in the late 1700s. The U.S.
    has existed for only 224 years, and is already falling apart, colonized
    as it is by the East Indians, the Chinese, etc who can’t believe that in
    the U.S. they’ve found a new Malaysia to rule;

    3. Poland is part of the Western guilt culture; Korea is part of the Eastern
    shame culture. Poland is part of the Central European civilization which
    is distinct from either Western Europe (with its legacy of colonialism and
    slave trade), and Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, …) with its legacy of
    tyranny and lawlessness. Kingdom of Poland was patterned expressly on
    the Roman Republic (not Empire – hence monarchy was weak by design).
    Russia was patterned after the Byzantine Empire. Aristotelian Ethics, i.e.,
    virtue ethics, which is part and parcel of Catholicism, is still very influential
    in Central Europe. Hence the Principle of the Golden Mean (i.e., moderation
    in all things) is an important part of the culture. Pursuit of holiness/enlightenment,
    rather than Western decadence and hedonism, is part of Polish spirituality.

    4. As a result of these factors, Poland has one of the lowest levels of social
    dysfunction in the world. The rates of murder, rape, abortion, divorce, homelessness,
    STDs, HIV, obesity, drug addiction, etc are extremely low compared to the U.S.,
    Russia, or even Western Europe. School shootings and terrorist attacks are completely
    unknown. Poland, unlike the U.S. or Western Europe, is a very cohesive
    country, with very low levels of diversity. Therefore, it has had little difficulty
    handling Covid-19. Total death rates due to Covid are about 10 times lower
    than in either the U.S. or W. Europe. And Poland has done it without the
    collectivist mindset of Japan or Korea.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Anon 2
  226. Malla says:
    @Blinky Bill

    I have always wondered why we cannot have a Hitler German Food restaurant like these Ghenghis Khan Mongol Food Restaurants. Oh yeah, who am I kidding? Not gonna happen in the West.
    But guess what? There are/ were Hitler themed restaurants and shops in India of all the places.

    The Hitler Cross Cafe, Mumbai, India

    Hitler, clothing store in Ahmadabad, Gujrat, India,
    Maybe all that Aryan connection of the ancient past just came out.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  227. nebulafox says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a really country dependent thing. In some countries, the local ethnic Chinese have assimilated, and banana networks are more based on old-boy gravitations than ethnic identity per se. Sometimes this depends on the circumstances of assimilation: Thai-Chinese went willingly, Indonesian-Chinese were forced by Suharto, and this had the results you’d expect, with Indonesian Chinese keeping a more salient identity even as they adopted Indonesian names. Of course, that’s also partially due to Islam preventing serious intermarriage.

    In other countries, they remain their own distinct community, but they don’t identify based on individual subgroup as they would have 60 years ago, let alone 100. It’s worth remembering that the various groups of Chinese sometimes used to hate each other to the point of mass violence, often based off grievances stemming from events back in China: Hakka-Cantonese wars in Malaya came in the context of the Hakka being disproportionately behind the Taiping Rebellion, for example.

    In the case of Singapore, the government really wanted to eliminate the distinctions between the various groups of Chinese (who weren’t always on the best terms with each other) to enforce social cohesion and tamper down on crime, among other things. That’s part of why Mandarin was introduced as the “Chinese” language in Singapore, despite few if any Singaporean Chinese speaking it prior to independence. This was so successful that the ethnic Chinese community in nearby Johor Bahru began speaking Mandarin as well: they were basically plugged into Singaporean media 24/7.

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
  228. prosa123 says:
    @R.G. Camara

    About 15 years ago I went on a tour of the Yale campus, not a prospective-student tour but one highlighting the architecture and history. All went well until we got to the library. The young woman leading the tour let the group (maybe 10 people) go no more than 15 or 20 feet into the building and blocked us from going any further. Apparently, Yale’s library is a holy sanctum that cannot be defiled by the presence of mere mortals.

    • Thanks: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  229. EldnahYm says:
    @jon

    I’ve never had those other dishes, but dinuguan(last image) is pretty good.

  230. @LondonBob

    Mexican food is rubbish

    No problema, gabacho. ¡Mas pollo en mole Poblana y pesca Veracruzeña para mi!

  231. J.Ross says:
    @Anon 2

    This reply caused me deep amusement, Sarmatian.

  232. Malla says:
    @anon

    How would you describe Singapore, Taiwan and HK? Sri Lanka?

    Cant say, nothing coming up to mind.
    Someone posted Singapore as similar to Switzerland. Rich and clean and that seems right.
    HK is a more corrupt version of Singapore, some Chinese folks tell told me. This is surprising because HK was ruled for a much longer time than Singapore by the British but maybe English as an official language in Singapore helps. Nothing coming to mind about Taiwan , you could say, it is China (with native Taiwanese minority) where Classical Chinese culture is much more preserved as against People’s Republic of China where a lot of it were destroyed during Mao’s Cultural Revolution. Hell, British Ruled HK preserved more classical Chinese culture than Maoist China.

    Sri Lanka is a better, more cleaner, laid back, tiny version of India with much less difference in between rich and poor. It is better, maybe because of Buddhism as against Islam or Hinduism in most of the subcontinent. In Indian subcontinent, Christian (Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox) or Buddhist areas tend to have significantly less difference in between the rich and poor than Hindu and Muslim areas.

    Chinese aren’t at all politically ambitious like the Jews. They don’t care much about politically organizing themselves.

    Very true, they are more like the Parsis of India. Jews are more like Brahmins of India. Both are experts at creating mythologies, ideologies and memes to control the outsider populations. Both try to keep a hold on and manipulate official history as well try to take control of media. Both are expert liars and rumour mongers. Basically experts at controlling the minds of the others over whom they politically dominate.

  233. Dissident says:
    @I, Libertine

    Here in New York City – thirty, forty years ago – a typical urban block in the outer boroughs contained a fruit and vegetable store or stand, owned and operated by a Korean immigrant Mom and Pop.

    Not just the outer boroughs; there were plenty of such Korean fruit stores in Manhattan as well.

  234. Yahya K. says:
    @Dmitry

    In my opinion, the only nationality in Asia which seems close to a civilized Western European level, is Japan. Mainland Chinese culture still seems around a century behind Europe in various ways, trivial or not. Japan seems to be at a Western European civilization level, while our impression of mainland China’s civilization level is maybe at the level of Turkey or the Balkans.

    It might seem a trivial example. But in relation to how youth are taught about cleaning. Wealthy mainland Chinese students are supposedly famous in England, for being not taught to clean their houses. So the mainland Chinese students developed an infamous reputation for lack of cleaning.

    Which is odd, because just a few centuries ago, the Chinese were the pinnacle of civilized and clean behavior. For example, in 12th century Hangzhou, the the streets were swept frequently; the canals were dredged each month; the homes of the wealthy had cesspools, and even the poor people in Hangzhou disposed their night soil in buckets which were then carried off each day to central locations in the city.

    Meanwhile, in Europe you had all sorts of diseases and plagues popping up every few decades due to the abysmal hygienic standards of the time. That didn’t really change until the 18th century, when they managed to come up with preventative cures to scurvy (citrus) and small pox (through vaccination, which incidentally was discovered in Turkey and transported to Europe via the wife of a British diplomat in the Ottoman Empire – Mary Montague).

  235. Jmaie says:
    @Muggles

    Now, don’t get me started on “Canadian” food, whatever that is supposed to be. That is one kind of restaurant I’ve never seen in the US.

    Not quite on point, but Canada is the only place I’ve ever been served a Vietnamese noodle salad where the meat was cold and the noodles warm…

  236. slumber_j says:
    @Sam Malone

    I think I remember him writing about a kid biting off the tip of his finger and writing a political slogan in blood on the coat of the kid in front of him.

  237. @Anonymous Jew

    Yeah, they most likely have a higher murder rate, but they are only two percent of the Taiwanese population and they aren’t as homicidal as, say, African-Americans are in the U.S. or probably even southern whites.

    Besides, the other East Asian countries, with the exceptions of Korea and Hong Kong, also have small aboriginal populations.

  238. Twinkie says:
    @nebulafox

    Bali is not Indonesia.

    It’s the original, pre-Islamic Indonesia. Jimbaran Bay on Bali is one of my favorite spots in the world. And it’s not just pretty beaches either – Bali is has ancient Hindu temples and is rich in history.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  239. Twinkie says:
    @Jack D

    Ken Jeong: Aren’t we Koreans the angriest mofos in the world?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  240. Malla says:
    @Zpaladin

    I always thought of Koreans as the Poles of Asia. China is Russia and Japan is Germany. Korea is caught in between.

    Very true. Excellent. I realized this immediately after I had posted my list.
    Update of my list.
    Koreans = Irishmen/Poles of North East Asia.

  241. @AKAHorace

    Nah, but neither are there European discussion groups who discuss who are the Poles of Asia.

    This discussion group is in America.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  242. nebulafox says:
    @Twinkie

    Somewhat: the Javanese used to be Hindus. IIRC, the Balinese are descended from Javanese immigrants, some who came during the height of Majapahit, others after the Islamic conversion, so that would mean cultural divergence caused by religion rather than pre-existing differences.

    But that’s not true for other ethnic groups in the archipelago, many of whom were pagan animists like their Malaysian cousins before Islam arrived. When bien-pensants talk about “Indonesian” Islam, they really mean Javanese Islam, and that’s been rapidly declining for decades due to urbanization and globalization.

  243. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    The amount of American and Japanese investment is one of those conveniently forgotten facts in modern Korean historical memory, but give them their due: they really worked their fingers to the bone to build their nation. It’s hard to describe how rapidly the place changed and how much effort that took. When my grandfather was being given a “government sponsored vacation” in Korea in the 1950s (which he almost never talked about beyond a few perfunctory and possibly Scotch-solicited lines), the place was a hell-scape, full of starving waifs covered in sores. The 21st Century… well, let’s just say I wondered why the US couldn’t have infrastructure like this.

    >Korean immigration largely ended 15 years ago.

    And some gyopos-some of them adoptees-are even heading back. I’d like to say good riddance, but that’d make me a massive hypocrite, as I’m now working abroad (though granted, that wasn’t really my choice and I have absolutely no intention of being anything other than American, come what may).

  244. @Almost Missouri

    I wouldn’t put such discussion beyond the Japanese tbh.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  245. @prosa123

    Maybe she didn’t want you plebians fiddling with the folios:

  246. nebulafox says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t know about online, but I’ve encountered multiple people in the PRC and Singapore who made the “Filipinos are our Mexicans” connection. Granted, that one isn’t controversial in non-baizuo company and doesn’t take imagination in the way any other comparison does.

    (And because of that connection, Singaporean Malays really, really don’t like being conflated with Filipinos-and that easily happens to the women if they aren’t wearing hijabs, given how universal they’ve become since the ’80s.)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  247. @nebulafox

    Filipinos are just, almost universally, terrible people. Their disorganization and lack of ambition, I suppose, is to their credit that they also don’t have the thymos or ability to form large and dangerous cartels like Mexicans.

    I wish that I didn’t have to say it like that, but it certainly seems true. I’ve had better experiences with some Africans(the self-selected and top immigrant kind, of course) than with Filipinos.

    But yeah, I’ve heard the same comments. The Japanese are much more entertained in making comments about the rest of the world, though, thus my initial mention of them. The -chans, after all, were originally their thing where one has a one-stop shop of creative work, wild speculations and the latest in typical East Asian clique drama because one chan is too small for two doujin circles.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Twinkie
  248. Malla says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Not as simple as that. Now it is true that China did not in general conquer Korea and Korea was a tributary state, the status in hierarchy of the King of Korea (Korean Joeson dynasty-China’s Manchu Qing dynasty) would be even less than that of the visiting ambassador from China. The Korean King would have to come personally to receive the ambassadors at the gates.
    Also the Yangbangs Confucian scholars with time had transmuted into a brahmin like elites eventually causing great poverty and hardship during Joeson period.
    Actually reading travelogues from that period, the idea I got was that Joeson Dynasty hermit Kingdom Korea was a lot like today’s North Korea with Qing Dynasty China as today’s People’s Republic of China w.r.t Korea.
    The Japanese may have invaded Korea but when Korea was part of the Japanese Empire, the Japanese introduced modernization, education, modern healthcare etc… The Japanese freed the Korean masses from the autocratic feudal rule of the Yangbangs, just like how the British Empire freed lower caste Hindu Indians from the autocratic rule of the Brahmins and Hindus as a whole from the autocratic rule of Islamic lords and how Chinese Communists shut down a similar feudal Tulku Monk aristocracy system in Tibet.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Daniel Chieh
  249. Malla says:
    @Mobi

    Yeah the Igbos have quite a reputation in Western Africa (even outside Nigeria/Cameroon like even in Ghana) of being mercantile Jew like. It seems you get products in West Africa called “Igbo maal” or knock off products of original products sold by Igbos. In Nigeria the stereotype for the big three ethic groups are that Igbos are the business people, Yarubas are the education people and Hausa up north are the Government people. Ironically the British were more comfortable than the Muslim Hausas of the north than the fellow Christians (many of them Anglican and Presbyterian) down south. This was a major complaint of the Biafra movement (dominated by the mercantile Igbos) which wanted independence from Nigeria.
    Even the Kikuyu of Kenya call themselves Jews of East Africa and were considered the most intelligent of all Kenyans by the British during British Empire days. Indeed the Kikuyus picked up English education and ways much faster then other tribes but not surprisingly spearheaded the anti-British movements like the Mau Mau. Just like in India, ironically the more westernised ethnic groups (Bengalis upper caste Hindus in India for example) lead the anti-colonial movements. The more traditional Masai remained friendly with the British.

  250. utu says:
    @Jmaie

    “One wonders how it is that Africa seemingly has the lowest […] fatality rate…” – Age demographics. Nigeria 2.6% population over 65 while Italy 23% over 65.

  251. Malla says:
    @Yahya K.

    Yeah that may be true. I agree that a giant populated country like India can and does produce a large number of intelligent people to run an industrial nation. India is a third wold shithole but India has loads of huge Government owned giant PSUs (public sector units) like Indian Railways, ONGC (Oil and Natural Gas Company), Coal India as well as private multinational companies like Reliance, TATA etc… all run by intelligent people. But we also have a large number of low IQ people to drag along and support. There is a saying that “India” (elite India) is going to space while “Bharat” (masses) are still stuck in bullock cart world. Only a small part of the Indian population is middle class and pay Income tax who have to support a huge number of poor. By China’s standards our middle class is only 3% of our population. Indian Govt statistics are dubious as they changed the definition of “middle class” (included a lot of higher lower classes) to show a good face and to attract foreign companies to invest in the Indian Market. Many companies like General Motors have folded operations in India when they found out that the supposedly Indian Middle Class (and thus purchasing power of the economy) was much smaller than what was shown (White CEOs have a strange susceptibility to being fooled by Indians). Also because GM could not compete with the Auto market leaders in India like Suzuki India and Hyundai India. But had the market been genuinely been bigger they could have still survived and had time to fight back. VolksWagen India, Honda India and Toyota India are still sticking around and fighting back for now.
    India has a huge variation in IQ, partly correlating with caste. Also because India is at the end a Caucasoid-Australoid nation with both high IQ Caucasoid and low IQ Australoid genes mix in various combinations creating huge IQ variations. Basically we have the same problem as Brazil or Venezuela.

    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @Yahya K.
  252. @Bardon Kaldian

    IQ is an imprecise measure for human accomplishment, but much as VO2 Max is a rough measure for athleticism, so is IQ a rough measure for thinking ability. Your commentary assumes things about the human brain that we do not know for certain to this day: perhaps it is possible that there is some form of multiple intelligence, but we shouldn’t eliminate the notion that on a purely mechanical level, there’s actually just a better connectivity and this contributes to overall intellectual capability(and there’s some research to this effect).

    In general, its always better to have a measure than to not have one at all, and then work on refining it. Beyond that, creativity may indeed be measurable or at least, be better understood and there’s quite a bit of research to that effect(we’ve already reached the ability to neuroimage, measure blood flow, certain neurochemicals, etc; when we can’t with humans, we can do so with sacrificial animals and have been able to consistently discern chemical effects, as well as modify intelligence through astrocyte transplants from humans to mice.)

    Ultimately, your belief system promotes a kind of magical thinking that the human mind is somehow irreduceable; this may be true in the end, but it should not prevent us from trying. Only in trying to understand the brain can we hope to enhance it and go beyond, and in order to do so, we must have more precise metrics than “feelings of population.”

    I also object to your idea that “people are people” of a certain kind, independent of culture; Peter Frost’s research of gene-culture coevolution would seem sufficient to disprove it, as does simple logic: if there was a culture that killed everyone over 5’10”, it would have a significant genetic effect on surviving height. Modern Italians don’t have the same culture of their ancient counterparts, and likely, not the same genetics. All of those things change, and with a strong enough selection from culture, could change again in the future too.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  253. Rahan says:
    @anon

    Philippines and Thailand are two countries where the men live off their women, often by abusing them. Both countries are known for their prostitution. /…./ In any society where the men do not step up to take care of their women and children, you know they’ll always be backward and poor.

    Black Africa is like this. (The non-Muslim parts mainly, of course)

  254. nebulafox says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    “Terrible person” conjures up a very different mental image than just being lazy and umambitious for me, but yeah, I get you. As I alluded to, Islam’s strictness and community orientation actually is probably a net positive for Indonesians and Malays, in protecting them from a zeitgeist that would massively take advantage of their easy going tendencies otherwise. Indonesia can still be shockingly poor, BTW, but credit due, I never once got the same vibe of broken hopelessness that I got in the Philippines.

    Re: Japan, not nearly plugged in enough to that kind of thing to comment intelligently on it, but I’ll believe it.

  255. Yahya K. says:
    @Malla

    India is a third wold shithole but India has loads of huge Government owned giant PSUs (public sector units) like Indian Railways, ONGC (Oil and Natural Gas Company), Coal India as well as private multinational companies like Reliance, TATA etc… all run by intelligent people. But we also have a large number of low IQ people to drag along and support. There is a saying that “India” (elite India) is going to space while “Bharat” (masses) are still stuck in bullock cart world.

    Yeah. One of the more important concepts floating around the HBD blogoshpere is the “smart fraction theory”, which posits that a nation’s GDP per capita is determined more by how many smart people (IQ 116-120+) there are in a country, rather than merely the average IQ of the population. The underlying assumption behind the theory is that a modern industrial society needs smart people to assimilate the knowledge needed to operate technology, which will provide most of the productivity oomph to that country. Meanwhile, manual laborers are basically interchangeable units of production whose IQ doesn’t matter that much, because their comparative-advantage-induced contributions to productivity will cancel out any lost productivity from their lower IQs. Observe, for example, how California continues to outproduce most other US states, and indeed many large countries like the UK, despite having a Turkish level average IQ of ~95-96 (due to the Hispanic majority).

    Economies of scale also helps large countries with moderate IQ levels because they will only need a few smart people to operate the really important companies. For example, in the US you have the top 500 companies producing 67% of the countries output. If you put high grade management at the top of those companies, you can really boost the net efficiency and productivity of those companies and by extension the whole country. I suspect that’s one of the reasons why the US has a higher GDP per capita than Europe, even though average IQ has been steadily decreasing.

    So yeah, India probably has enough smart people to hit first world levels of productivity, despite its large population of low IQ people, for the reasons outlined above. But its also important not to put too much emphasis on IQ. There are other factors at play that are just as important. For example, a critical factor keeping India down is its defective political system, which as you know is just as sclerotic as the US, and with the same sort of handout populism as Latin America, but without the stability or non-corruption of western countries. India has basically taken all the defective components of democracy, without any of the virtues. You also have a culture where anyone who shouts and protests can stop a major project from going through. For example, just a few years ago a major Korean Steel company called POSCO tried to open up a $12 billion factory in Odisha, but couldn’t get the factory up and running because a bunch of environmental activists took to the street to protest. This sort of thing would have never happened in China.

    But overall, India is a fascinating country. It will be interesting to see how it develops throughout the 21st century. My prediction is that their GDP per capita will reach 50-60% of western levels near the end of the century – mostly due to western stagnation, but also because of India latent potential.

  256. 1661er says:
    @Anonymous Jew

    There are over a dozen recognized “tribes.” Due to the difficult terrain, they don’t necessary have contact with each others. And they have different genetic make-up and relationship with other populations around the region/world.

    There is one group that’s related to ancient Hayato people in southern part of Kyushu, Japan. There are also groups with genetic links to Australian aborigines(common ancestor from 6,000 years ago), Hawaiians, Maori, etc. Philippine was just whatever Spanish managed to grab and hold on to. There are aboriginal group(s) in Taiwan that’s related to some population group(s) in Philippine, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indigenous_peoples_of_Taiwan

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25791309?seq=1
    https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2005/07/07/taiwan-twinned-with-hawaii
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/asia/67390585/new-zealands-long-lost-taiwanese-cuzzies

  257. Malla says:
    @songbird

    Vietnamese sure are a bridge nation in between South East Asia and North East Asia. They are both at the same time. They are more like France, a bridge nation in between the Mediterranean Southern Europe and the Colder Northern Europe. Strangely Vietnam was once part of the French Empire. Did the Vietnamese remind the French of themselves, that the French wanted Vietnam so bad? LOL Just jokin about the last part.

  258. 1661er says:
    @Pincher Martin

    I blame it on the 1949er refugees. China didn’t sent its best in 1949. Many of them were gangsters. When Taiwan was part of Japan, Taiwan had the same per-capita income as the rest of Japan. But Taiwan had fallen behind with 1949ers dragging them down.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  259. @Thulean Friend

    There are small Chinese mercantile elite communities in the Philippines and Indonesia.

  260. Half-Jap says:
    @Dmitry

    Wealthy mainland Chinese students are supposedly famous in England, for being not taught to clean their houses.

    Reminds me of houses of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi students in Britain and Germany. Similarly dirty and odour of weird spices (like a traditional small baniya grocery shop in India). And the female South Asian desi students at times were way worse than even us guys who were quite bad as well. I even rogered a couple of desi girls on beds full of books, plates, cloths, cups, cosmetics, underwear and god knows what but in those moments who cares. They cleaned their rooms when I visited the first time, but after the first roger (in comparatively clean rooms), eventually they just became themselves with time. LOL They were all from sophisticated well to do upper middle class backgrounds back home in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh but on their own, lived like slum dwellers. Of course back home, they had dirt cheap lower class servants to do all the cleaning and washing.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Jack D
  261. Anonymous[171] • Disclaimer says:
    @prosa123

    Very true about Filipinos and cruise ships

    And cargo ships. Filipino crews basically transport all the world’s goods, with mostly European, American, Taiwanese and Chinese officers in charge.

  262. Half-Jap says:
    @Darth Plagueis the Unwoke

    Nowadays Rwanda is the Prussia of Africa.

    The Tutsis are the local Prussians. Small number of regimented Tutsis defeated and decimated larger number of wild screaming Hutus. No wonder they ruled that place even with small numbers.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  263. @LondonBob

    You do realise that most British Indians aren’t East African Indians, and that “Jains” probably make up less than 1% of the British Indian population?

    45-50% of British Indians are Punjabis, most of whom are, in turn, Khatri.

  264. @Buffalo Joe

    But for the affordable “Jenny”, I would have been a very poor teen, instead of just a poor one!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  265. Whitehall says:

    I’ve found the Philippines a pretty tolerable place – I’ll be retiring there in a few years. The drugs imported from China have done a lot of damage but shoot-to-kill has been an effective policy for drug dealers.

    I think that the Filipinos are the way they are is because the living is just so easy there. They do appreciate Americans, many speak English, and don’t trust the Chinese.

    One thing I’ll give the Irish over the Koreans and the Italians over the Filipinos is that their women have bigger tits. That said, I’ve been married to a Filippina I met in Dubai for over 2 years now and couldn’t be happier. No intellectual airs about her but one smart cookie. Plus, Filippinas NEVER have headaches – too bad about the tits.

    I lived in South Korea for a couple of years and had a tall Korean girlfriend (5’11”) She still had trouble finding a Korean man tall enough. Wouldn’t leave mama and Seoul or I would have married here but in retrospect, my Pinay makes a better wife.

    Here on the Persian Gulf, I’ve developed my own field guide to our local mix of nationalities.

    – If you’re driving down the freeway at 160 km/hr (100 mph the speed limit) and there a huge SUV tailgating you flashing his hi-beams, it’s probably a Saudi.

    – If it’s after dark and he’s driving with no headlights, he’s probably an Indian.
    If he’s driving on the sidewalk, he’s probably a Korean.

    And,
    – If he’s royally screwing up a traffic circle, totally befuddled, he’s probably an American.

    • Thanks: Jenner Ickham Errican
  266. bomag says:
    @anon

    I don’t know what you meant by “repressed”. Seems to me Japanese are quite open about sex.

    The Germans, for that matter, seem rather open about sex and nudity.

    Both countries do have quite a bit of emotional reserve in general.

    • Replies: @Corn
  267. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Filipinos are just, almost universally, terrible people.

    Filipinos, however, have the second highest assimilation index among major immigrant groups in America – only Canadians exceed them. Koreans and Filipinos voted for Trump at the highest rate among Asians in America (and higher than Hispanics except Cubans).

  268. nebulafox says:
    @Half-Jap

    Paul Kagame is certainly an interesting fellow. Former bush commander turned authoritarian developmentarian.

    • Replies: @Malla
  269. Twinkie says:
    @Malla

    Also the Yangbangs Confucian scholars… autocratic feudal rule of the Yangbangs

    1. If you are going to go on authoritatively on this subject, it actually helps to know the term. It’s not “Yangbang,” but rather “Yangban.”

    2. Yangbans were not feudal lords. They were initially descendants of those who passed state examinations and became civil or military officials. Although they became hereditary in practice and over time, legally and theoretically anyone who was not a slave, an untouchable, or a son of a concubine could pass the exam and become one.

    3. Although the Japanese did introduce modernization to Korea, they did so for their own benefit, not out of altruism (during a famine in Korea during World War II, for example, the Japanese occupation authorities expropriated massive amount of grain to feed Japanese home islands). Koreans were well on their way to reform and modernization (e.g., slavery was outlawed prior to the Japanese occupation, military was being organized along European line, etc.) when they were interrupted by the Sino-Japanese War, the Russo-Japanese War, and the eventual annexation by Japan.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Malla
  270. @Buffalo Joe

    Japanese women are generally ubercute, but I have come to dig the often curvier Jungle Asian ladies.

    Was in Thailand and Cambodia earlier this year. Had a blast!

  271. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    essentially the entire Korean state as we know of exists because of Chinese intervention for the Silla(who would go on to found Korea) against the Baekje(who were supported by the Japanese).

    This is a distortion of early Sino-Korean history.

    The ancestors of later Koreans formed three states of Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla (plus the Gaya Confederacy, which was allied to Yamato Japan and was likely the main source region for migration to the latter) by 300 AD. By 500 AD, Goguryeo became a powerful state and ruled over most of the Korean Peninsula and much of today’s Manchuria and Northeast China. Indeed, Goguryeo’s defeat of Sui Dynasty’s attempts to conquer it led to the Sui collapse and rise of the Tang Dynasty.

    Tang and Silla allied against Baekje and Goguryeo and conquered them. Silla then broke with Tang and expelled the latter from the peninsula while the remnants of the Goguryeo nobility founded a successor state in Manchuria called Balhae.

    Eventually, Unified Silla disintegrated in a civil war into three parts again and the successor state to Goguryeo triumphed. Thus state – later known as Goryeo (c. 900) is whence the name Korea originates. This is also the dynasty that resisted Mongol invasions until it reluctantly became a tributary state after repeated invasions (a pattern that later repeated with the Manchus).

    China didn’t “give a sphere” to Korea to exist. China was never able to absorb Korea and assimilate it as it had done to many polities, because Koreans were too troublesome to invade and rule (not unlike the Vietnamese to the south). It therefore served Chinese interests to keep Korea as a tributary state when possible rather than risk the fate of the Sui Dynasty.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  272. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yes, but the US was very Anglophilic in the past. One way to understand modern Japan is to try to imagine what the USA would be like without the 1960s, immigration, and democracy. Yes, Japan loves baseball and Saville Row. And raw fish. It is a nation of singular genius and singular luxury…

  273. Twinkie says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    There is Korean concept called “Han” which is difficult to explain to non-Koreans. I guess it could be described as a weighty sadness, or a gnawing sense that a great personal injustice had been done to oneself.

    Han is often described as grief or suffering of tragedy – it is a modern phenomenon resulting from the great chaos and destruction of the Japanese occupation and the Korean War, which killed millions, separated countless families, and devastated the whole country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(cultural)

    This probably captures this sentiment best:

  274. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    Re: Morally rotten West

    For at least 300 years Poland has viewed Western Europe, and the
    West in general, as morally rotten. This was at the time when
    Western Europe was indeed at the peak of its colonialist expansionism,
    and scientific racism, which ultimately had a very predictable outcome,
    World Wars I and II, all this while preaching “liberté, egalité, and
    fraternité” (talk about Western hypocrisy). The current anti-white
    hatred is in many ways part of the imperial blowback. The West
    humiliated the world with its colonialism, and being publicly
    humiliated is not easily forgiven – it has produced rage against whites
    which we now see all around us. By the way, the LGBT movement
    is often seen as part of the West’s moral rottenness

  275. @J.Ross

    I have always wondered what effect WWII had on these men. In Europe, persecution seems to have produced high-IQ Jews. In the US, we made disfunctional, violent blacks. Did all the aggressive Japanese men die in 1944-1945 on South Pacific islands? But if so, how to explain the 1960s-1980s? Did the occupation of Korea affect them? It doesn’t quite make sense to me. But the Koreans are definitely more “manly” now…

    • Replies: @Escher
  276. @Twinkie

    China mostly stopped invading for territories after the Tang but it wasn’t just with Korea. As a whole, China more or less adopted a model that didn’t benefit from invading others(war slaves were not a major source of capital) and imperial machinations were pretty paranoid of potentially ambitious generals, plus wars with the north and internal rebellions were such a constant thing that it pretty much took the military budget.

    There were later expansions, of course, and over time they’ve accumulated, but at a pretty slow pace.

    Your comment of the Chinese hesitantly to invade only because of resistance makes little sense given the overwhelming Chinese, specifically Ming, influence on the Korean court as documented by Swope:

    The long-term consequences of the First Great East Asian War are hard to overstate. Ming troops remained in Korea, several of whom actually stayed behind after Chinese forces left and raised families with Korean wives. The memory of Ming aid was used to solicit Korean assistance against the Manchus in the 1630s. Even after the fall of the dynasty in 1644, Koreans continued to use the Ming calendar in private communications and wore Ming ceremonial robes, even when on tribute missions to the Qing. After the Qing came to power, Koreans viewed themselves as the last bastion of Confucian civilization, which became for them a source of authority. King Hyŏjong (r. 1649–59) even dreamed of leading a northern expedition to punish the Qing and restore the Ming…

    The Koreans were faithful tributary vassals of the Ming from even before the founding of the Chosŏn dynasty in 1392. Korea ranked first in the Ming hierarchy of tributary states, a distinction of pride for Koreans. Indeed they “saw their relationship to China as more than a political arrangement; it was a confirmation of their membership in Confucian civilization.” For example, the foreword to an account of the war written in the seventeenth century exclaims: “Since ancient times China and Korea have enjoyed friendly relations akin to those of elder and younger brothers. They share both history and culture and have thus prospered together.”…

    Despite the sometimes onerous nature of these obligations, Koreans generally were eager to maintain ties with imperial China. Although trade envoys received rather low salaries, they would bring extra items with them to barter and sell at considerable profit, including ginseng, paper, furs, and brushes, returning with Chinese products unavailable at home. Likewise, the Korean court was eager for the gifts bestowed upon them by the Ming, especially items of Chinese culture. Ming emperors provided their Korean tributaries all manner of lavish gifts, including dragon robes, jeweled belts, musical instruments, royal costumes, ornaments, silks, jade, and Chinese medicines.8 Most important, though, were Chinese books, including the classics, histories, treatises, and literature of all kinds, which had the greatest influence on Korean high culture and society. In particular, Chinese legal texts provided the basis for the law code and penal statutes of the Chosŏn dynasty. Korea’s close proximity reinforced relations with China and resulted in its receiving more impressive gifts from the Ming than other tributary states, solidifying its favored status.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  277. bomag says:
    @Anon

    My, my; touchy, touchy.

    “Jungle” trends toward the honorific in the West; The Jungle Book etc.

    Fine; let’s use “super excellent” Asians and “excellent” Asians, both with a large number appended to their name. I’m not sure I want too many of them moving here; announcing their inherent superiority; and replicating the Hive full of sharp practices. Looks like another route away from nice things. Might want to toggle a vote for the 40 IQ Europeans.

  278. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Your comment of the Chinese hesitantly to invade only because of resistance makes little sense given the overwhelming Chinese, specifically Ming, influence on the Korean court

    This was a product of the extremely destructive Imjin Wars (Hideyoshi’s Invasion of Korea) – Ming-Joseon relationship became very strong and mutually beneficial thereafter (Ming aided Joseon against Japan and Joseon aided Ming against the Manchus).

    You should also keep in mind that Joseon was founded by a pro-Ming general of Goryeo. When Ming rose and toppled Yuan, The Goryeo court raised an army to attack Ming and reconquer Liadong. The command of the army was given to Yi Seong-Gye who revolted, turned the army around, and toppled the Goryeo dynasty instead and allied with Ming.

    Later, Koreans of Joseon were quite aghast at the rise of Ching. Earlier Goguryeo ruled over the ancestors of the Jurchens and later Koreans looked down on Jurchens and Manchus as uncivilized barbarians.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  279. Twinkie says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    The Army guy is not nearly as quick as he thinks he is.

    It was unfair to the army guy. That boxer was a pro. Apparently, he takes bets to fight drunk, belligerent guys who think they can fight. He told the black guy that he could beat him with only his left. He toyed with the guy and finished him with a lunging left when he saw that the black guy was turning right (i.e. turning into the power side for the left hook).

    If the black guy were educated about fighting, he’d have kept turning to his own left, away from the power of the Korean guy’s left hook (since he told the crowd he’d only use his left).

    Knowledge is power – even in fighting.

    • Thanks: The Wild Geese Howard
  280. @Twinkie

    Or alternatively, you could read the quoted text which notes the relationship existed far before the Imjin War, unless some time travel is included for pre-Choson dynasty members.

    Incidentally, I work with several young Seoul programmers on a pretty close basis and much of their impressions match the general anti-Japanese, pro-Chinese basis(conveniently ignoring the existence of Qing, I suppose).

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  281. Twinkie, Daniel Chieh.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  282. Corn says:
    @bomag

    Finns/Scandinavians seem to be about the same as Germans.

    Hang out naked together in a sauna? No problem

    Say hello to a stranger in an elevator or on a sidewalk? Whoa buddy, watch it! Who do you think you are??

  283. Half-Jap says:
    @Twinkie

    Don’t know. Alleyne Ireland’s book gave me a very different picture.

    New Korea by Alleyne Ireland
    http://yeoksa.blog.fc2.com/blog-category-57.html

    Also these

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905oct07-00307
    Korea: A Degenerate State by George Kennan
    The Outlook, October 7, 1905, pp. 307-314

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905nov11-00609
    The Japanese in Korea by George Kennan
    The Outlook, November 11, 1905, pp. 609-615

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Outlook-1905nov18-00669
    What Japan Has Done in Korea by George Kennan
    The Outlook, November 18, 1905, pp. 669-672

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Wency
  284. Malla says:
    @nebulafox

    He seems like an intelligent person instilling discipline. Lets hope Rwanda becomes an example to all Africa.

  285. @nebulafox

    The Beatles hired a couple brothers to sail around the South Pacific and take video of vanishing lifestyles. The documentary is called Ring of Fire, but it’s not available on Amazon/YouTube/Netflix. Beautiful footage of Bali.

  286. Malla says:
    @Twinkie

    Dude, I have read the travelogues of travelers in Korea in the last days of the Joeson Dynasty. They had nothing to do with Japan and had no sympathy with Japan. Not a very pretty picture of life in those days. Maybe Japan should not have made Korea part of its Empire and left it as it was, I do not know.

  287. @Malla

    Also the Yangbangs Confucian scholars with time had transmuted into a brahmin like elites eventually causing great poverty and hardship during Joeson period.

    Confucianism doesn’t actually promote hereditary rule, so unless the Koreans were doing Confucianism incorrectly(and my understanding is the opposite, they took to it more faithfully than the Chinese), it cannot actually adapt to brahmin-like culture. The Chinese mandarins could pass on their status for a limited number of generations(2, I believe) and then their grandchildren had to prove themselves again.

    In practice, of course, accumulation of wealth and power all matter, it also meant that anyone could test in and there are quite a few examples of individuals who tested in with no background.

    The Japanese did not contribute to Koreans in the Imjin War.

    In addition to the human costs, as much as 80 percent of Korea’s arable land was ruined. For several years after the war, grain production was barely one-third of what it had been in years past; the hardest hit areas of Chŏlla were but one-sixth as productive. Many palaces were not rebuilt for decades or even centuries. Society was in shambles, banditry and dislocation were endemic, and tax collection was nigh impossible. In the immediate aftermath of the war, markets in Seoul were short on goods because all of the produce was being consumed by the Ming guest troops.

    In many ways, Korean captives instead contributed to Japan:

    Korea, meanwhile, was completely devastated. By some estimates, casualty and abduction figures were as high as two million people, constituting 20 percent of the population. Most of these people were illiterate commoners, but some, such as Kang Hang, Chong Huiduk, and No In, became minor celebrities in Japan by virtue of their education and left important chronicles of their time in captivity. One modern Korean scholar colorfully observes that the captives returned Japanese gunfire with “shots of cultural bullets.” Perhaps the most important cultural transmission was bringing Chinese-style Neo-Confucianism to Japan, which would be among the most important intellectual developments of the Tokugawa era. Some even suggest that Japanese daimyo brought monks with them during the invasions for the express purpose of plundering Korean libraries. Shimazu Tadatsune returned with 48 volumes of classical Chinese texts, and one Japanese author estimates that the total number of volumes brought back to the islands approached 2,600.

    One such captive was Kang Hang, a native of Chinju who had passed the civil-service examinations in 1587 and had earned a post at the Sungkyunkwan. After later serving in the Ministries of Justice and Public Works, Kang became an assistant commander entrusted with defending Namwŏn in 1597. He initially escaped the fall of the city but was captured by Tōdō Takatora on November 2, 1597, as he and his family sought to escape by sea to the safety of Yi Sunsin’s headquarters. He was first sent back to Tsushima and from thence onward to Tōdō’s fief of Ozu on Shikoku. In June 1598 Kang was sent to Osaka Castle and later to Fushimi, where he made the acquaintance of one Fujiwara Seiki, a monk at Sogokuji Temple who had formerly known Korean envoy Kim Sŏngil. The two became friends and discussed Neo-Confucianism and poetry. In his diary, the Kanyang nok [Record of a Shepherd], Kang relates valuable information about Japanese climate, history, myths, language, and geography. Seeing himself as a potential Korean spy, he also included information on the backgrounds of prominent Japanese commanders and discusses politics in Japan, along with notes on the strengths and weaknesses of certain castles. Despite (or because of) its popularity in Korea, the work was often confiscated or burned by Japanese censors during their colonial rule in the twentieth century.

    • Replies: @Gimeiyo
  288. Chinese and Russians have very little in common. Culturally the Chinese are a Mediterranean people – they are like Italians mixed with Jews and Armenians. Focused on money, food, craftsmanship, function best in family groups, rather than as individuals or in large collectives. These are not Russian values for the most part. Koreans are more like Russians – somewhat depressive and sentimental, respect strength, a bit masochistic. Work well when ordered to but lose focus if not given direction.

  289. Gimeiyo says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Confucianism doesn’t actually promote hereditary rule, so unless the Koreans were doing Confucianism incorrectly(and my understanding is the opposite, they took to it more faithfully than the Chinese), it cannot actually adapt to brahmin-like culture.

    Brahmin-like culture would be a massive overstatement, but I recall that to be eligible to sit for the civil service exams, you had to list out your father, your grandfathers, and your paternal great-grandfather and their respective offices, which tended to restrict the examinee population to a quasi-hereditary elite.

  290. Jack D says:
    @Twinkie

    It’s great that Asians still have license to make fun of each other. If a white comic said the same thing about Vietnamese he would be deplatformed in an instant.

    It’s easy to develop mistaken notions about Vietnamese because their men are built like slim Western pubescent boys but appearances can be deceiving.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  291. Whitehall says:

    One of the burdens of ancient Korean vassalage to China was an annual shipment of ginseng, gold, and 20 Korean maidens. Today, the taste and aromas of the Korean cuisine are on the tip of your tongue when muff diving – think of that when you see those K-Pop dancing girls.

    Yes, Filipino cuisine is terrible. When my wife feels under the weather, she wants to cook up a batch of fish head soup but I insist she do that at her ladyfriends’ places. On the other hand she has learned to make a mean jello fruit salad for me. I’ll be interested at her reaction when I take her to the US and the Deep South and buy her a bag of chitlins.

    The most rowdy, loud, and angry corporate meeting I’ve ever attended was in the offices of a Korean state-owned corporation. Representatives of the same corporation but different divisions, a tough, grizzly combat veteran and a a short but feisty middle-aged lady, went at each other in Korean. We Western ex-pats, representing their client, just set back in amazement as they worked out their differences at 90 decibels.

  292. @Anon

    Cambodians are higher IQ than Scandinavians (who are stunningly dumb despite the living standards)

    Seriously doubt it. Norway and Sweden have ethnic minorities who live in a stone-age-culture (Saami etc), and they have third-world immigrants a plenty. These may drag the average down.

  293. @Neil Templeton

    As I said, I have nothing against testing. Anyway, any society does it all the time.

    My chief objections are two:

    1. one number

    2. collective number

    Compare this with other test frequently invoked, personality test (big 5). I don’t want to argue for or against it. But:

    1. you got 5 personality traits. You don’t reduce these traits to one, “personality quotient trait”.

    2. also, you don’t use collective (German, Japanese, French,…) “personality quotient trait”. It would be also ludicrous do publish results on Italian neuroticism or Argentinian extroversion.

    • Replies: @res
  294. J.Ross says:
    @Malla

    I asked a Kuwaiti once who gave what is clearly the correct answer: “we love bringing up Hitler because it makes ‘rational’ Westerners lose their minds.”

  295. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    It’s great that Asians still have license to make fun of each other. If a white comic said the same thing about Vietnamese he would be deplatformed in an instant.

    Yeah, whose idea was that?

  296. One interesting thing about Indians (and I’m Indian myself, albeit of a deracinated type), is that for a warm weather/tropical country, people in India are not especially cheerful or happy-go-lucky. Neither are they especially depressive, but my general impression is that South Asians stand out in this lack of cheerfulness from other warm weather societies. Just maybe this has something to do with Indians’ success overseas, and now even in India (not many dirt poor countries have space programs that launch probes to the moon and Mars).

    The people here, who are pretty much all on the white nationalist spectrum, will say something like “it’s only the Brahmins!” Well the example of South Asians overseas is kind of complicated. Indians in the USA definitely skew elite. Indians in Canada, which has a very robust refugee resettlement program that has brought over a lot of relatively average South Asians, tend toward the blue collar, although not completely. Maybe a little more than they do Hispanic Americans, I think Indian Canadians might more closely resemble Italians in the first half of the 20th C in the USA. Indians in the UK do quite well, while Pakistanis do very poorly, despite being from a similar population (what is now Pakistan was part of India for its entire history prior to 1947).

    Another interesting example is South Africa – Indians there are overwhelmingly concentrated in the Durban metro area, making up 20-25% of the total population there. So Durban is an Indian metro to somewhat the same extent that Cape Town is a white metro or the Sandton area of Joburg is a white area. Having said that, Durban is by far the least developed of the three largest metropolitan areas of South Africa. Very large areas of Cape Town look positively 1st world, Joburg is definitely a mixed bag but has a lot of wealth, and Durban is the only one of the three that reminds you of the rest of Africa, say Nairobi for example. So Indians have not “brought up” Durban, have not really developed it, at least visually.

    But on the other hand, looking at average income figures, Indians in South Africa are rapidly catching up to whites. Both because of a fall in white income and a rise in Indian income.

    And for me, perhaps the most interesting example is Bangladeshis in the USA. Bangladeshis here are overwhelmingly low skilled and poorly educated. The population is heavily concentrated in the NYC metro area, and the immigrants themselves occupy the lowest rungs of the service industry. These are not “brahmins” or the decedents of brahmins. But surprisingly, their kids do quite well! Bangladeshis make up 1-2% of the city population, but 10% of the students at the elite public magnet schools, like Stuyvesant. So here you have a poorly educated, average or even below average group of people from South Asia, who struggle in the first generation, but already by the second generation are making remarkable educational progress.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Malla
  297. Dmitry says:
    @Half-Jap

    Yes is a good point, about the video on dirty students – it could be result of such students having wealthy background and cleaners in their Asian country, meaning they never experienced how to clean in their apartment when they travel to live in Western Europe.

    This is what the YouTube comments for the video were discussing.

    Still it reminds us of a quite divergent impression we have about Asians – Japanese culture implies that the Japanese citizens’ are trained to be probably the most obsessed about cleaning people in the world (Japan is one of the world’s most hygienic countries), while other Asian nationalities are more what we expect from the East, or the wealthy rely on hiring servants for even the most basic tasks.

    Asian peoples’ attitude to cleaning and hygiene encompasses such a divergent extremes as India on one side, and Japan on the other.

    Not generalizing from this one video. But between India and Japan’s opposite attitude to cleaning, perhaps Chinese culture will be somewhere in the middle of the Asian cultures.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Malla
  298. @AndrewR

    If you can lump all of China together than you can lump Europe together.

    Does all of Europe have the same hair, skin, eye color? Phenotypically, Europe is the most diverse region in the world, while North Asia is the least diverse…

  299. I agree with those who said S Korea more closely resembles Poland than Ireland. The main difference being that S Korea has been a lot more successful than Poland in the recent past. The per capita incomes are not very different actually, Poland being a bit lower, but Poland is poor and backward in the EU context, while S Korea is rich and advanced in the Asian context. Only Japan and Singapore are better off than S Korea in Asia, with the momentum (especially in terms of culture) being with the S Koreans at this point.

    That being said, I think the S Korean success story has pretty much peaked for a simple reason. The TFR is S Korea is exceedingly low, below 1.0 for the past 2 years (2018 and 2019, so before Covid19), and not much higher for the preceding decade. That’s significantly lower than Japan (1.37 in 2019) the poster child for a low birth rate and declining population. So whatever problems Japan has had with a stagnant economy and culture since their population started declining, those same problems will hit S Korea like a ton of bricks in about 10 years, with an even lower birth rate and without the enormous amount of accumulated wealth that Japan had circa 2000 to cushion the blow.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  300. @Bardon Kaldian

    Probably the West will, in next decades, go down as a result of suicidal anatioanal dysgenic. Then, east Asians will absolutely dominate.

    No, they will run out of things to plagiarize or steal. They haven’t added anything of value to modernity, what makes you think this will change?

  301. Jack D says:
    @Half-Jap

    When my son was in college he was friends with a desi girl. He happened to mention that his grandmother was going to visit New Delhi and she insisted that she meet her grandmother for tea. They sent a car to her hotel and brought her to the family home in New Delhi (they also had a country place down south near their steel mill which I gather was even grander). At some point in the conversation it came out that they had 16 servants in this home. Growing up in a home like that I think it would be expected that you would just throw your dirty clothes anywhere and the servants would tidy them up. My son also used to cook Indian food for this girl. She had no idea of how to cook.

    At one time in the West it would not have been unusual for a wealthy family to have that many servants also. Before labor saving appliances and power equipment and the availability of processed foods, if you owned a large home with grounds, you would have needed people in the kitchen, people cleaning, people doing laundry, people doing exterior maintenance and taking care of your horses, etc, etc.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  302. 128 says:
    @I, Libertine

    Couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch of people with that sort of character. At least Apu is nice.

  303. 128 says:

    Koreans tend to be a bit too big for their breeches, but then a lot of Chinese from rural and poorer areas and tier 2 and below cities also exhibit very boorish behavior, with almost no regard for common courtesy or rules and regulations. As for tendency towards violence, if you have seen videos of rural Chinese protests, Koreans are really no more violence prone than Chinese, both tend to be less disciplined and more disorganized than the Japanese. As for the excuse of recent poverty, Taiwan is also in the same basket as Korea, and Taiwanese tend to be a lot less boorish than Koreans.

  304. 128 says:

    Korea seems like a super fake trying hard but will never quite get there version of Japan. And in terms of household appliances and consumer electronics the Koreas are rapidly losing their lead to the Chinese anyway.

  305. ABCStar says:
    @angmoh

    That cant be true though,Brahmins were prohibited to cross seas (Search for Ramanujan) .I highly doubt there were a lot of brahmins among the tamils in singapore.Not to mention tamils are the darkest indian people in terms of skin colour.Surprisingly civil though.

  306. ABCStar says:
    @Adam Smith

    Can individual instances be used to judge the collective mentality?

    Note that a big country will have a lot of bizarre crime ,especially a poor one.

    Let us not try to twist stats,the indian homicide rate is about actually on the european scale .Russia and a bunch of Euro countries have a higher crime rate than india.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

  307. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    At one time in the West it would not have been unusual for a wealthy family to have that many servants also.

    Vanderbilt-level rich or Southern planters perhaps. Not ordinary local patricians. To take one example, the founder of Eastman Kodak in 1910 employed 8 live-in servants to look after his extraordinary mansion and its grounds (as well as provide personal services for him).

    I checked several other families who were wealthy and prominent in the Genesee Valley in that era (which were all recognizable names 50 years later) and it’s the same deal: 2-5 servants depending on life-cycle factors.

    • Replies: @Gimeiyo
    , @Buffalo Joe
  308. @1661er

    I don’t know. I’ve never noticed the 1949ers, as you put them, as being prone to crime. But maybe I missed it.

  309. @street shitter

    Only Japan and Singapore are better off than S Korea in Asia, with the momentum (especially in terms of culture) being with the S Koreans at this point.

    Taiwan is wealthier per capita than South Korea. Noticeably wealthier.

    According to the IMF, if Taiwan were considered a country it would be ranked 13th in per capita income (PPP adjusted), ahead of Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Australia and Japan. And considerably ahead of South Korea’s 29th ranking.

    The World Bank puts Taiwan lower in per capita income at 17th, slightly behind Germany and Sweden, but still ahead of Australia, Canada, France and Japan – and far ahead of South Korea’s 30th place ranking.

    The CIA puts Taiwan in 22nd place, about even with Australia, but still ahead of South Korea’s 32nd place showing.

    All three show Taiwanese with about 20% more income than South Koreans, which is approximately $10,000.

    I do agree that South Korea’s culture has had remarkable success and is attracting global attention.

    • Replies: @Gimeiyo
    , @Jack D
  310. Gimeiyo says:
    @Art Deco

    Re: servants in the West — Not sure the US ever developed the same kind of servant-intensive country house lifestyle as in England. But my impression is that in England, in the 19th century, the wealthy were waited on by an army of servants. I think some of the confusion of apparently upper middle class families in Asia being able to afford similarly huge retinues is probably just that they aren’t really “upper middle class” by income in the context of their country’s economic development, just as the Filipino cruise ship worker earns an upper middle class income, not a working class income, in his context. The people with 20 domestics are probably in the top 1% (or top 0.1%), just as would have been the case in Victorian or Edwardian times in the West.

  311. Jack D says:
    @I, Libertine

    Koreans are not that sweet to begin with but in the case of the greengrocers their grumpiness may have been intensified by shear exhaustion. I once saw a documentary about a Korean grocer in NY whose schedule was such that he never slept in a bed or for any significant stretch of time. Each day in the middle of the night he would have to drive to the wholesale produce market to restock and then the grocery was open late and the next morning it would begin all over again. Every once in a while when his wife or another trusted family member was manning the register, he would sneak into the back room and lie on a stack of rice sacks and take a quick nap. The work ethic was literally unimaginable to a Westerner. If he was driving his employees in this way instead of himself he would have been accused of slave driving. The man was his own slave. The economics of a place like this were such that if he had a staff of 40 hr./week employees with vacations and holidays and sick days, etc., he would have needed 5 men on the payroll to replace himself and the store would not have made any money.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  312. Gimeiyo says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Taiwan is wealthier per capita than South Korea. Noticeably wealthier.

    Purchasing power parity is doing a lot of work there. Nominal GDP per capita, it’s 31k for Korea vs 25k for Taiwan. Adjusted for PPP, it’s 46k for Korea vs 57k for Taiwan. Stuff is just cheaper in Taiwan. I don’t know that I would translate that directly into Taiwanese being wealthier per capita than Korea.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  313. @Daniel Chieh

    Stream of consciousness on your part. Let’s no waste time:

    1. R.P. Feynman’s IQ was 125. While above average, nothing spectacular.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/finding-the-next-einstein/201112/polymath-physicist-richard-feynmans-low-iq-and-finding-another

    A Polymath Physicist on Richard Feynman’s “Low” IQ and Finding Another Einstein
    A conversation with Steve Hsu.

    Is it true Feynman’s IQ score was only 125?

    Feynman was universally regarded as one of the fastest-thinking and most creative theorists in his generation. Yet, it has been reported-including by Feynman himself-that he only obtained a score of 125 on a school IQ test.

    I suspect that this test emphasized verbal, as opposed to mathematical, ability. Feynman received the highest score in the country by a large margin on the notoriously difficult Putnam mathematics competition exam, although he joined the MIT team on short notice and did not prepare for the test. He also reportedly had the highest scores on record on the math/physics graduate admission exams at Princeton.

    It seems quite possible to me that Feynman’s cognitive abilities might have been a bit lopsided — his vocabulary and verbal ability were well above average, but perhaps not as great as his mathematical abilities.

    I recall looking at excerpts from a notebook Feynman kept while an undergraduate. While the notes covered very advanced topics for an undergraduate — including general relativity and the Dirac equation — it also contained a number of misspellings and grammatical errors. I doubt Feynman cared very much about such things.

    So- one number, g, is essentially meaningless. One can be very gifted in one field & average or less in another. Such a mixture of results does not have any predictive power.

    2. collective IQ is even more meaningless. If IQ is supposed to measure cognitive abilities in a modern society, then it is refuted by reality as I’ve already pointed by examples of Iran & US blacks. Other examples could be added (Mongolia- 101, Eritrea-85, Jordan -84, Mexico- 88, Nigeria- 84, Lebanon- 82, …)- but it is of no use.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Jack D
  314. Jack D says:
    @Pincher Martin

    You have to take into account the S. Korea’s starting point to understand how far they have come. The heavy industry in Korea before the Korean War was mostly in the North. The South was mainly rural and not like American tractors and grain combines rural but Asian peasant water buffalo rural. Then you had the war in which Seoul was reduced to rubble:

    So they were literally starting from zero. From starving. From a point that makes Haiti seem like a rich country. A famous and still well loved dish in S. Korea is called “army base stew” which combines Korean kimchi with American cold cuts and baked beans. It might include hot dogs and American cheese as well. The origin of this dish (and the loose recipe) is that it was created by dumpster diving around US military bases – they were eating the cafeteria scrapings that the American soldiers were leaving on their plates and this was good eats compared to what they otherwise had to eat (at least in the protein dept.) which was nothing.

    Even in the 1970s, N. Korea was more prosperous since they had things like steel mills and were trading with the Soviet Bloc while the S. Korean economy was still underdeveloped – maybe on the level of Vietnam today. This is why a lot of S. Koreans left for the US.

    So for them to be making $40,000 per capita (BTW I don’t know where you got $10,000 https://tradingeconomics.com/south-korea/gdp-per-capita-ppp) feels to them like unimaginable riches.

  315. @Jack D

    I’m not demeaning what the South Koreans have accomplished. I was merely pointing out that Street Shitter’s comment that in Asia only Singapore and Japan are better off than South Korea is not true.

    Taiwan is now better off than Japan by many measures. The Taiwanese focus on computer technology rather than heavy industry has paid off handsomely for them over the last two decades. When I first arrived in Taiwan in the early nineteen-nineties, the island felt like it was still an economic colony of Japan.

    Here are the IMF’s estimates of per capita income (PPP) for several Asian countries and the U.S. and Germany in 1989. I’ve also included their world ranking at the time.

    10) United States – $22,814

    11) Singapore – $20,296

    15) Germany – $19,338

    23) Japan – $18,313

    29) Hong Kong – $16,074

    43) Taiwan – $9,317 (behind Puerto Rico, Greece, and Hungary and about even with Venezuela)

    55) South Korea – $6,692 (behind Poland, Brazil, and Mexico and about even with Iran)

    *****

    Now let’s jump thirty years into the future (2019) and see what the IMF has to say about these same countries and their relative rankings in per capita income (PPP).

    4) Singapore – $102,026

    10) Hong Kong – $67,557

    12) United States – $65,061

    17) Taiwan – $55,290 (just behind Iceland, the Netherlands and Saudi Arabia)

    18) Germany – $54,987 (just slightly ahead of Sweden and Australia)

    31) Japan – $46,068 (just behind the UK, France, and Belgium)

    32) South Korea – $43,211 (about even with Spain and New Zealand)

    *****

    South Korea has done very well, but Taiwan has done better. And I don’t think it has much to do with the slight head start it possessed, either. If those relative positions mattered so much, we wouldn’t have seen Italy fall from #19th in 1989 to #37th in 2019, just behind the Puerto Ricans.

  316. @Bill B.

    Fyi: The Issa brothers (EG Group) have just bought New England’s Cumberland Farms conveniece store chain.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
  317. tomv says:
    @Jack D

    Pincher Martin said: “All three show Taiwanese with about 20% more income than South Koreans, which is approximately $10,000.”

    20% of $40,000 is $8,000, which is close to $10,000. With a slightly different base, Korea’s per capita income at PPP could be $50,000, 20% of which would be exactly $10,000.

    He also specified the sources for his stats — “all three” of them.

  318. J.Ross says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Or the Rick Moranis brain scan scene in Ghostbusters.
    Or: look at all this (in America) unknown cinematic pageantry. Surely now that movies have to not be about white guys Hollywood could — aaaaaand they’re re-re-remaking Batman as a Holocaust metaphor.

  319. @Gimeiyo

    Most economists agree that PPP-adjusted incomes are a more accurate gauge of living standards in a country than nominal incomes, which are too dependent on exchange rates.

    For example, using nominal rates, one would never have guessed that Japan experienced a “lost decade” in the 1990s.

    PPP per capita income

    1989

    10) United States – $22,814

    23) Japan – $18,313

    1999

    10) United States – $34,495

    26) Japan – $25,703

    Nominal per capita income

    1989

    4) Japan – $24,628

    7) United States – $22,879

    1999

    4) Japan – $35,912

    5) United States – $34,602

    *****

    While some people might have mistakenly believed that the Japanese were wealthier than Americans in 1989, nobody thought the Japanese were wealthier than Americans in 1999.

    Not even the Japanese in 1999 thought that.

    The strong Yen policy of Japan, which protected Japanese exporting industries from overseas competition, inflated the nominal value of Japanese incomes while actually setting back Japanese living standards.

    South Korea has something similar going on now and for the same reason.

  320. J.Ross says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One of the most interesting Feynman anecdotes to me (and one of the few comprehensible to me as an innumerate) is that he was bad at drawing, so later in life he decided to tackle drawing as a hobby, like Suzuki music imitation adapted for the eye instead of the ear, and he became very good at it. That’s more illustrative of his intellect and capacity for learning than any one test.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  321. Dissident says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    my grandmother’s brother, on my father’s side, stayed in NYC after Ellis Island. He was a tailor and partnered with two Jewish tailors to found GGG Clothiers.

    My great uncle changed his Italian name to a Jewish name and learned yiddish. We called him “Jewish Uncle Henry.”

    Ha! How successful was your uncle in passing as a Jew?

    Great reminiscences, thanks for sharing.
    ~ ~ ~

    never dated an Asian, but I thought the Thai women were hot

    Just gotta make sure they’re actually women

    (From what I hear, of course; no personal experience.)

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Buffalo Joe
  322. @J.Ross

    Feynman was full of vitality, curiosity, lust for life, humaneness, ….His bizarre escapades are basically irrelevant, although probably useful for his neuroticism.. He was- surprise, surprise- even wise …

  323. It’s true that PPP muddies the water in terms of development level in Asia and elsewhere, but I tend to see PPP measures as kind of bs. The measure is not nearly as sophisticated as people think it is. And knowing quite a few Japanese for example, it totally makes a difference that their incomes are quite low these days by coastal American standards. Most of what someone in Japan buys is not made in Japan, most of what someone buys in Taiwan is not made in Taiwan, etc. So whenever you buy anything made outside your country, which is most physical goods, nominal income is what matters.

    The figures I see from a quick google search, on wikipedia, show Japan with a relatively unimpressive approximately $40k per capita nominal income, similar to France and the UK, a bit below Germany, and well below the USA. S Korea clocks in at around $31k-$33k, and Taiwan at around $25k. There are different sources with different measures but that’s the ballpark.

    Japan sounds ok at $40k, but you have to remember that Japan’s total GDP peaked in 1995 at around 75% of America’s total, with less than half the population and a tiny fraction of the resource base. So $40k is an enormous relative decline for them. Japan was the only Asian country that actually (significantly) surpassed the leading nations of the West at any point. S Korea and Taiwan have never been high relative to the USA, Canada, Australia or Western Europe, and these days instead of catching up, S Korea (let alone Japan) is growing slower than the USA and most of Europe.

    Generally, Taiwan looks shabbier than S Korea, which in turn looks shabbier than Japan. Japan itself is not especially wealthy looking. It’s neat and orderly and clean, but going there, very rich is not a phrase you would probably use to describe it. And in my experience, Japan is the only country that comes across as “civilized”, not only on par but in that sense ahead of the West. S Korea, Taiwan, HK, still have a quasi-3rd world, rough-around the-edges cultural feel. Korean pop culture is remarkably strong for a country of 50 million, but the pop culture is very manufactured, shamelessly so, compared to a more organic cultural vibe in America, Europe, Japan, etc.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  324. nebulafox says:
    @Dissident

    You are unlikely to encounter a ladyboy by accident in Bangkok if you are specifically seeking a prostitute, they tend to be concentrated in certain areas, along with in gay bars. Cannot vouch for Pattaya.

    One time in Bangkok, I was out to search for some condoms (7/11s were not an option for me) at the last minute because my then GF was visiting unexpectedly. I thought I could find them in one of the “farang” red-light districts, so I systematically searched them. The ladyboys were concentrated in the corner of one of them. I am no Adonis by any stretch of the imagination, but I was young, tall, not fat, not drunk, and not ugly, so I immediately got attention from the prostitutes used to dealing with obese, greying guys. The ladyboys acted differently.

    You could just tell who they were, even with Thais. Wider shoulders, more angular bodies, and decidedly more… aggressive in their solicitations. The way they paw or grab, it’s just distinctly male. Women can do that, but even hardened hookers are not as confident when doing so. There is a lifetime of social conditioning that shoes. Maybe to a super drunk guy from a society where all Thais are lithe, the subtleties are not as apparent, but YMMV.

  325. @Muggles

    Mugs, in my youth we would frequent the beaches on the Canadian side of Lake Erie, our side had the steel mills. Peameal bacon, grilled with a slice of cheddar cheese on a hamburger bun. Other than that Canadian food was British fare and now suddenly poutine, fries cooked in duck fat,smothered in cheese curds and gravy. Fort Erie had lots of Chinese restaurants and the ballet. Don’t know what Canadian food would be, moose nose stew ?

    • Replies: @Muggles
    , @JMcG
  326. @PiltdownMan

    Pilt, thank you more than the Thanks button. Used to buy Genesee in quart bottles.

  327. nebulafox says:
    @street shitter

    I suspect that is partly because Britain’s Pakistani contingent is heavily Mirpuri. Pakistanis in the US seldom display same social problems and are much more likely to be professionals.

    Another example that comes to mind are the Sikhs, who dominate the modern trucking industry. Genuine question: are non-Hindus (Indian or otherwise) more likely to send lower middle or working class immigrants to the United States? If so, is there a systematic reason for that, such as post-1947 Bangladesh having less of a legacy middle class and less IIT-esque institutions to cultivate them?

    • Replies: @street shitter
  328. @Art Deco

    Art, I’ve only had two servants. The first divorced ne and the second…got to go she’s coming down the hall.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  329. Muggles says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Don’t know what Canadian food would be, moose nose stew ?

    Yes, exactly.

    What would it be? I’ve had Arctic Char in a fairly nice restaurant, but it wasn’t memorable. The food I’ve had there seemed vaguely British/vaguely American, but in restaurants portions seem small to this Texan. Not bad, but not “authentic.” Tim Horton’s okay but nothing seemed very Canadian, just lots of sweets. Like the Brits I think they like the sweet stuff.

    I’ve never been to Quebec or the eastern half, so maybe the cuisine is better there. I would think the French heritage would produce something good.

    Poutine I’ve seen on menus but never tried it. Seems awfully starchy, like something poor people would eat to consume mass calories to keep from freezing to death. Maybe that’s it.

    So again, another Canadian “identity” problem. I was raised in the US mountain NW so what I ate growing up was also very generic and bland. We ate a lot of game due to our hunting neighbor who shot nearly everything but didn’t eat what he killed.

    I guess I did expect “moose nose stew” in Canada but all I saw was to me, imitation food. Yes, the Asian stuff is usually good there but not Canadian. I will say that the chicken I’ve had there a few times was very good, better than American chicken. I think they raise them more naturally and do not factory farm them.

    I do end up buying a lot of bacon from Canada for some reason. Duck too. And maple syrup.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Buffalo Joe
  330. Jack D says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There is a big difference between a measure being imperfect and being meaningless. IQ measurement is not an exact science but it is highly useful both individually and collectively. It was originally developed by the military so they could figure out which draftees they should spend a lot of money on training for some highly technical position and which ones they should send out to dig trenches. And it worked very well for its intended purpose, much better than just randomly assigning people to different roles.

    Edge cases like Feynman are the ones who are meaningless. You are like the Leftists who say that male and female do not exist because there are a handful of people who are not clearly one or the other. Just because there was one man who had a large disparity between his verbal IQ and his performance IQ does not negate the entire science of IQ measurement.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  331. Jack D says:
    @Muggles

    I’ve never been to Quebec or the eastern half, so maybe the cuisine is better there. I would think the French heritage would produce something good.

    Not really. Generally speaking, the food you find in Quebec supermarkets is more or less the same stuff you would find in any supermarket in N. America. Especially since NAFTA it is often literally the same stuff. The Quebec French have been here for 400 years and at some point were cut off from the motherland. So they eat Kellogg’s Corn Flakes for breakfast and Digiorno frozen pizza (which is called Delisio Pizza in Canada) and so on. Even their “own” signature dishes such as pea soup, baked beans and meat pies seem more British than French. Of course in Quebec these things have French names (e.g. tourtière instead of meat pie) and I’m sure that they would swear that these things are 100% Quebecois and have NOTHING to do with the British but you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see the resemblance (and picking British cuisine as their role model was NOT a good choice, not that they really had a choice). They like to play up the differences as part of their Quebec nationalism shtick and they use maple syrup more than we do but generally speaking there are more similarities than differences (and when they do have their own dishes they are not very good – poutine is disgusting because the redeeming quality of a French fry is the contrast between its crispy outside and its soft inside but when you pour gravy on them you just get a soggy mess). Of course in Montreal you can find French restaurants that serve actual continental style French food and modern chef style food (and a million different immigrant cuisines) but this is not really “Quebec” food.

    • Thanks: Muggles
  332. Anonymous[335] • Disclaimer says:
    @Neoconned

    I’ve also heard Korean is a language isolate …

    This has been the convenient “woke” position taken in public by many people in Korea and Japan to protect fragile founding myths on both sides. Real scholars have long been aware of a long history of exchanges including extensive migration going back to BCE. Many Japanese share the distinctive physiognomy found in Korea.

    Serious scholars who are familiar with modern Japanese and Korean cannot but be struck by the close similarities in structure between Korean and Japanese. (Separately, both Japanese and Korean later introduced a huge amount of Chinese vocabulary as well as some grammatical features from Chinese which itself is quite different in structure from Korean/Japanese.)

    Most likely, what became Japanese is in large part derived from the language of proto-Japonic speakers on the Korean peninsular who moved in considerable numbers to Japan in the centuries B.C., triggering the transition from the Jomon (corded pottery) to the Yayoi culture. In particular, some languages apparently spoken in the Goguryeo lands may have been involved.

    On the Korean peninsula itself, other languages (probably themselves more distantly related Altaic languages) later superseded those “Peninsular Japonic” languages, but the basic structure of both languages remained in place even as much of the vocabulary was superseded in Korea.

    In particular, both Japanese and Korean have elaborate verbal systems. For example, “I was made to speak” would expressed in a single verb form in both languages. This is not possible in English or Chinese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsular_Japonic#:~:text=Peninsular%20Japonic%20languages%20are%20now-extinct%20Japonic%20languages%20that,sagi%20%28compiled%20in%201145%20based%20on%20earlier%20records%29.

  333. @street shitter

    It’s true that PPP muddies the water in terms of development level in Asia and elsewhere, but I tend to see PPP measures as kind of bs. The measure is not nearly as sophisticated as people think it is.

    I don’t really care what “people” think about PPP.

    What do economists think? They are, after all, the ones who created both measures. And they think purchasing power parity is a more accurate and steady gauge of comparative living standards than nominal incomes based on currency exchange rates which can fluctuate wildly from year to year.

    Is it a perfect standard? No. There are problems with it, as there are problems with any measure that might be used. But it is preferable to a nominal standard which made Japan the wealthiest country in the world in 1995 right in the middle of their “lost decade.”

    Most of what someone in Japan buys is not made in Japan, most of what someone buys in Taiwan is not made in Taiwan, etc.

    Not true. If you look at a wide enough basket of goods, most people in most countries consume more domestically-produced goods and services than exported goods and services. The only exceptions I can think of are in places like Singapore and Hong Kong.

    Nontradeable services include housing costs, water, electricity, cable, getting a haircut, going to the gym, moving, etc. Not to mention the tradable goods that your own country produces.

    That’s a big chunk of income.

    Look at the percentage of “imported goods and services as a percentage of national GDP” for various countries and you’ll get an idea of what I’m talking about.

    United States – 14.7%

    Japan – 15.1%

    China – 18.0%

    Australia – 20.6%

    Russia – 20.7%

    World as a whole: 27.7%

    France – 32.0%

    South Korea – 37.7%

    Germany – 39.7%

    Denmark – 48.2%

    Switzerland – 53.9%

    Czech Republic – 72.2%

    Singapore – 149%

    Hong Kong – 187%

    *****

    The general rule of thumb is that the smaller and/or poorer a country is, then the more likely its economy will have to to rely on imports.

    Big and/or wealthy countries produce and consume most of their wealth within their own borders.

    There are some exceptions, but that’s the general rule of thumb.

    I couldn’t find Taiwan on the list, but I’m sure it’s somewhere around South Korea. Taiwan imported good and services worth around $285 billion in 2019, according to the CIA handbook. In 2017, Taiwan’s GDP was nearly $1.2 trillion. So I think we can assume around 25%.

    The figures I see from a quick google search, on wikipedia, show Japan with a relatively unimpressive approximately $40k per capita nominal income, similar to France and the UK, a bit below Germany, and well below the USA. S Korea clocks in at around $31k-$33k, and Taiwan at around $25k. There are different sources with different measures but that’s the ballpark.

    You should’ve spent more time looking.

    Japan sounds ok at $40k, but you have to remember that Japan’s total GDP peaked in 1995 at around 75% of America’s total…

    Japan’s total GDP that year, when the yen hit 80 for every American dollar, was nearly equal to the total American GDP. That’s why I’ve been telling you can’t rely on nominal values based on currency rates. No one really believed that Japan’s economy was as large as the American economy back then. Least of all the Japanese.

    Generally, Taiwan looks shabbier than S Korea, which in turn looks shabbier than Japan. Japan itself is not especially wealthy looking.

    And all three look shabbier than Spain, which is not as wealthy as any of them.

    Taiwan avoided the worst of WW2, and has no equivalent to the Korean War. So it has many older, ugly, tenement-style buildings that pre-date 1945. But I lived in the Songshan district just over ten years ago and it’s as lively a downtown area as any I’ve seen anywhere.

  334. res says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    1. you got 5 personality traits. You don’t reduce these traits to one, “personality quotient trait”.

    Because the percent variance explained for that single number would not be comparable to g.

    You might want to read the book discussed in this post.
    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/35-myths-debunked/

    2. also, you don’t use collective (German, Japanese, French,…) “personality quotient trait”. It would be also ludicrous do publish results on Italian neuroticism or Argentinian extroversion.

    You mean research like this?
    Personality traits across countries: Support for similarities rather than differences
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179646

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  335. @Dissident

    Desi, he was good enough to be a successfull businessman with two Jewish partners. I was in Thailand with my wife, I could look but no touchie.

  336. nebulafox says:
    @Dmitry

    Mainland China still has hygiene problems, but it is astonomically better than it was 15 years ago. Not nearly on Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese levels yet, but improving.

    Part of the issue is that “peasant” behavior (spitting) was mainstreamized during the Cultural Revolution. Singapore did the exact opposite, with fines and canings for those who did not get with the program. This has led to telltale pattern divergences between local Han and immigrants from the PRC.

  337. @Muggles

    Mugs, Canadian bacon around here is like a small ham rolled in peameal. New York is famous for maple syrup and on my fly in trips to the far reaches of Onatario, the food is camp fare. Montreal had some very good restaurants and the best in Toronto were French. Also, Canadians pronounce pasta as ‘paste a’ Strange, eh.

    • Thanks: Muggles
  338. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    It’s probable that Feynman had a reasonably high if not stellar verbal IQ, but just didn’t care and thus just didn’t practice. Like a lot of historical greats, he was obsessed with his topic to the point of tunnel vision.

    But this is no universal rule. An interesting contradiction is found in Lev Landau, who was even more precocious than Feynman, yet also apparently was quite the history buff. Then you had Von Neumann, who could pass as doctorate level in several left-hemisphere topics as a marginal side hobby. Indeed, the man could do everything except drive…

  339. As long as the topic here is Asian, I want to note that the Japanese and Chinese were harsh on crime. I have some historical photo books of both cultures, lots of beheadings, people trussed up in starvation cages and people hung by suspending their head in a frame until they slowly strangled or starved. That should keep the crime down.

    • Replies: @prosa123
  340. nebulafox says:
    @Dmitry

    Agreed about the PRC, though I should note that mainland Chinese have a uncouth reputation even among far less developed and clean neighbors like Cambodia or the Philippines.

    Korean culture is starkly different from Japanese culture, lot more abrasive and direct and honest, but the younger generation is still pretty convergent with Western civilizational levels when it comes to hygiene, civilized public decorum, etc. Same with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore.

    (If older Koreans seem rough around the edges, you have to remember that they grew up in a place poorer and less developed than many contemporary African countries and were socialized by a military dictatorship where top-down brutality was the order of the day, down to teachers acting like army noncoms. Japan, by contrast, started modernizing in 1868 and was a surprisingly successful if imperfect democracy until the Great Depression, colonial adventures abroad aside.

    Older Taiwanese are different-the Japanese occupation was run by civilians rather than the army, unlike in Korea, and the postwar dictatorship did not seem as strict and military obsessed. Some very elderly Taiwanese even still speak Japanese.)

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @1661er
  341. Malla says:
    @Jack D

    North Korea was once richer on standard of living than both Communist China as well as South Korea. Strange as it may sound when you see how the three countries are doing today.

  342. prosa123 says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Besides of course the US, Japan is one of the very few affluent countries that practices capital punishment.

  343. Malla says:
    @Dmitry

    North Eastern Europe all the way to Russia (Poland, Ukraine, Czech Rep, Hungary, Russia etc…) Vs Southern Europe (like Italy, Greece, Spain etc…). Who would you say are more disciplined? And who are more similar of the two European groups with North Western Europeans like Anglos and Germans in your opinion?
    In my opinion and experience, in general nature of the people, North Eastern Europeans seemed more similar North Western Europeans compared to Meds but what is your opinion on discipline?

  344. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    Some very elderly Taiwanese even still speak Japanese

    As do elderly Koreans (see story below). I have the feeling that the Taiwanese remember the Japanese more fondly than either the Mainland Chinese or the Koreans (who don’t remember them fondly at all).

    Once I was in a “Japanese” restaurant in the US. Most Japanese restaurants in the US are run by either Koreans or Chinese since very few Japanese want to move to the US to run a restaurant nowadays and this particular one was Korean run. At the table next to mine, a Korean man had brought in his very elderly and senile mother to dine. The mother must have fixated either on the fact that her son told her that they were going to a Japanese restaurant or perhaps the physical cues of the traditional Japanese style decor, but the woman insisted on (loudly) speaking in the (very rusty) Japanese of her youth to the (Korean) staff (which younger Koreans do not speak) and much hilarity/pathos ensued. The poor son was mortified and no amount explaining could get her to switch back to Korean.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @nebulafox
    , @Corn
  345. @nebulafox

    It’s pretty hard to get into the USA unless you’re from a contiguous landmass and sneak across the border. This is not an option for South Asians so they have mostly come through various programs that privilege professionals and the well educated. Bangladeshis found a loophole in the 1990s – the diversity visa / green card lottery, and most of them came that way directly or indirectly. There are still some standards for a DV (diversity visa), the main one being that you had to have gone to a university. But Bangladeshi universities are shall we say not the most rigorous, and the Bangladeshis I’ve casually come across from a DV background have not been the sharpest tools in the shed.

    With the exception of Bangladeshis and now Nepalis (also now coming through DV), America doesn’t get the same South Asians that Canada and the UK get.

    Other groups that don’t perform well in other places, like say North Africans in Europe, do reasonably well in the USA, don’t have the social problems you find in Europe, and I think that’s because it’s quite hard to come here, and so we get a different demographic from those countries.

    Incidentally, in answer to your question, Bangladesh is a country almost without an educated elite, certainly by Indian standards. It was the rural catchment area for Kolkata, where all the Bengali regional elite were concentrated, and after partition got treated like a colonial step child by the Pakistanis. Pakistan used to be like an India junior, the Canada to India, with the same strengths in higher education and a westernized English speaking elite, until the country went crazy on religion over the past 30 years or so. Bangladesh is a lot more secular, at least compared to Pakistan or the Middle East.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Malla
  346. @Jack D

    I have the feeling that the Taiwanese remember the Japanese more fondly than either the Mainland Chinese or the Koreans (who don’t remember them fondly at all).

    Solidly true; there specifically was a faction of the Taiwanese who assimilated fully into the Japanese system and came to identify with them. They and their descendants essentially wish for close ties to Japan, or even to return to a Japanese identification.

  347. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    My brother and I were in Montreal in the late 90s. We were hard in pursuit of a couple of girls we met while bar-hopping. We all went out to a diner to get something to eat to strengthen us for what was to come, so to speak. The girls ordered poutine. After watching them devour that ill-looking concoction, I lost all interest in pursuing things further. Now, back to contemplating the great Filipina pool party of 88. Or maybe 89.

    • LOL: SOL
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  348. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Whaddaya mean buy a new dishwasher? I married the dishwasher!

    • Replies: @iDeplorable
  349. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    As I said, the big difference was that Taiwan was run by civilian administrators, not the army.

    Japanophilism also was a great way to annoy the post-1949 mainlanders if you were an islander that disliked the KMT.

  350. 1661er says:
    @nebulafox

    Taiwan became part of Japan about the same time Hawaii became part of the US. Taiwan had representation in the upper house of the Japanese Imperial Diet as early as 1930s, long before Hawaii have senators in US Senate.

    The elders in my family said that they got better treatment from Imperial Japanese Kenpeitai compares to KMT’s secret police, who were generally recruited from gangster criminals. One of their bite noire served as secret police with Jackie Chan’s father in Shanghai. Even the sanitized version in Jackie Chan’s autobiography about how his parents “meet cute” show how corrupt they were. I have family who were in the Shanghai lease-territory, and they said it was transparently laughable lies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_and_Lee-Lee_Chan

    While in Shanghai, Lee-Lee heard that trafficking opium was lucrative, so she took a risk and bought some opium. That day, the port was under inspection and the officer in charge of inspecting every passenger was Charles who found the opium Lee-Lee was concealing. He confiscated it and was about to arrest her however, he took pity on her when he noticed the blue flower in her hair. According to the autobiography, I Am Jackie Chan; My Life in Action, during the war in China, a white flower in one’s hair signified that one had lost their parents, a blue flower meant that they lost their children and/or husband. Charles asked Lee-Lee about her situation and on hearing it, he let her go, returning the opium back to her.

    So nobody was surprised when Jackie Chan’s son was arrested on drug charges. He was truly his grandmother’s grandson. Reading between the line in today’s Mee-Too and ACAB era, it’s just another corrupted cop collecting sexual servitude in exchange of “returning the opium back to her.”

    The 1949ers, like the Bourbons “They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing” and keep pulling similar scam after Chinese kicked them out.
    Comfort women wasn’t/isn’t a big issue in Taiwan mostly because:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_in_Service

    Set in Kinmen in the 1960s and 1970s, the film focuses on Unit 831, a Republic of China Armed Forces military brothel in existence on the island from 1952 to 1990

  351. nebulafox says:
    @street shitter

    The incentives can get pretty funny. You ever heard of Avijit Roy? He had a BME PhD that he got in Singapore, but he found it a lot easier to migrate to America as a software engineer. There’s a bill in the Senate’s committee (HR 1044) that would remove national quotas for H1-B visas, which would presumably make things easier, but to quality for that in the first place would still require education, English speaking abilities, etc.

    >Incidentally, in answer to your question, Bangladesh is a country almost without an educated elite, certainly by Indian standards. It was the rural catchment area for Kolkata, where all the Bengali regional elite were concentrated, and after partition got treated like a colonial step child by the Pakistanis. Pakistan used to be like an India junior, the Canada to India, with the same strengths in higher education and a westernized English speaking elite, until the country went crazy on religion over the past 30 years or so. Bangladesh is a lot more secular, at least compared to Pakistan or the Middle East.

    So West Bengal got the majority of the economic and human capital alike after the partition, and Bangladesh got the mainly Muslim peasants with a residual Hindu minority until ’71? I don’t think the various disasters (war, climate, etc) that Bangladesh has dealt with ever since have helped, but the root issues seem to be more systemic and rooted in a fundamental lack of institutions and cultivation. Give them their due, though, country is doing a lot better than it used to, and knifing of atheists aside, it isn’t a sectarian hellhole like Pakistan. It’s just not going to be enough, though, to keep people around. As the amount of land shrinks and the population still heads for the peak, despite the sharp curtailing of birthrates…

    Re, Pakistan: I traditionally date that to the rise of Zia ul-Haq. I think the real origins of that lie in 1971, though: already with the Multan meeting, you began to see strong post-war Islamic themes surrounding the bomb project. I have no direct experience with South Asia, so anything I say is conjecture, but it seems to be that the military was so thoroughly discredited that they needed to find something other than the legacy of Sandhurst.

    This was also when the ISI’s noxious influence began to take off…

    • Replies: @Jack D
  352. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Or alternatively, you could read the quoted text which notes the relationship existed far before the Imjin War, unless some time travel is included for pre-Choson dynasty members.

    Save the snark and listen to your own advice. I wrote that the founder of the Joseon Dynasty was a pro-Ming rebel. The late Goryeo Dynasty was anti-Ming and launched an army to wrest Liadong from it.

    Incidentally, I work with several young Seoul programmers on a pretty close basis and much of their impressions match the general anti-Japanese, pro-Chinese basis

    You live in a make-believe world if you think Koreans are pro-Chinese. Koreans are pro-Koreans – their sentiments toward outsiders fluctuate based on their interests and conditions of the time. When there is friction with the Japanese (say over the Comfort Women issue, Japanese history textbooks, Dokdo/Liancourt Rock, etc.), Koreans are highly anti-Japanese. When there is friction with China (trade disputes, Goguryeo history*, North Korea, etc.), they become highly anti-Chinese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_controversies

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071128060009/http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?no=280522&rel_no=1

    SEOUL, South Korea (AP) _ More than a third of South Koreans believe China will be their country’s biggest security threat in 10 years, according to survey results reported Monday.

    The newspaper JoongAng Ilbo reported that 37.7 percent of respondents to the poll said they believed China would be South Korea’s largest threat after 10 years, followed by 23.6 percent who selected Japan. North Korea was chosen by 20.7 percent of respondents, followed by the United States, which was picked by 14.8 percent.

    The poll, commissioned by the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses, a state-run think tank, interviewed 1,002 people in December and had a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points. The think tank said it conducted the survey for internal reference and refused to release the full results, although it confirmed details of the newspaper report.

    The results contrasted with similar surveys in recent years that showed South Koreans were increasingly turning toward China and away from their traditional ally, the United States.

    Yun Deok-min, a professor at the Institute of Foreign Affairs and National Security, interpreted the results as reflecting negative views South Koreans have toward China because of a dispute over Chinese claims to an ancient Korean kingdom, as well as concerns over Beijing’s growing economic influence over North Korea.

    South Korea hopes to engage North Korea, reduce their economic gap and eventually reunite. However, North Korea’s growing economic dependence on China has raised concerns that greater Chinese involvement could hinder unification of the Korean Peninsula.

    China is South Korea’s No. 1 trading partner, with two-way trade topping US$100 billion last year. China and South Korea are also cooperating closely in efforts to bring a peaceful end to a standoff over North Korea’s nuclear program.

  353. Twinkie says:
    @Jack D

    A famous and still well loved dish in S. Korea is called “army base stew” which combines Korean kimchi with American cold cuts and baked beans. It might include hot dogs and American cheese as well.

    You left out a crucial ingredient – SPAM!

    South Korea has the highest per capita consumption of Spam in the world, outside the U.S. (read Hawai’i).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budae-jjigae

  354. @res

    The second topic seems interesting, but the answer about g is not convincing. Simply, in IQ measurements one gets different results for different areas of cognitive ability, or if you wish, talent. A superior words man can be- and mostly is- a rather miserable numbers man. No amount of juggling with results would produce a wordo-numbers man as a meaningful creature.

    From Thompson:

    2 Mental tasks correlate with each other, and it is easy to extract a general factor (and also some group factors) so it is not unwarranted to summarize people’s general level of ability with one number.

    No, our everyday experience shows us day after day that mental tasks do not correlate with each other. Thompson’s phrasing is similar to legendary reaction to Galileo’s Pisa experiment: We rather believe Aristotle than our own eyes.

  355. Whitehall says:

    “You left out a crucial ingredient – SPAM!”

    It is so strange to an American to see GIFT BOXES of Spam in the stores in Korea.

    Sure, we sometimes had fried Spam sandwiches when I was a kid in Indiana but it remains an unpleasant taste.

    But it sure beats the lightly sauced silkworm larva served with BBQ in places or the coral I was served at a seafood place in Busan’s Haeundae Beach – almost lost a tooth on that one! I scolded my date to give me warning in the future.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  356. @Bardon Kaldian

    “No, our everyday experience shows us day after day that mental tasks do not correlate with each other.”

    It’s almost as if the g glass is half-full and half-empty simultaneously.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  357. @Steve Sailer

    There is a simple way to check this, putting aside all personal preferences (and controversial topics like heritability, cultural conditioning etc.). Just check the reliable biographies of distinguished individuals in past, say, 100 years; people who have achieved much in arts & sciences. Divide them into two categories, numbers-people & words-people, according to their occupation & areas of excellence. If they are brilliant in one area & passable in another- g could be useful. If they are brilliant in their chosen area & atrocious in the other- g is useless.

    I am not so sure as before- I thought that Goethe was mathematically abysmal (and I was wrong); on the other hand, I think Jung was brilliant with words & concepts, and bad, very bad with math. But- that could be investigated….

  358. Twinkie says:
    @Whitehall

    It is so strange to an American to see GIFT BOXES of Spam in the stores in Korea.

    Spam in Korea is locally licensed and manufactured and now has “fancy” versions.

  359. Twinkie says:
    @Half-Jap

    I’ll do you one better: http://www.online-literature.com/london/revolution/12/

    That’s by Jack London. Summary: Chinese – hardworking, Japanese – clever. White man better watch out when the Japanese take charge of the Chinese. Oh, Koreans? Totally useless people.

    • Replies: @Malla
  360. Escher says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Pretty macho culture in Korea, including their movies showing a fair amount of in-your-face sex and violence.
    Their divorce rate seems to have gone thru the roof, though, along with the plummeting birth rate. Looks like extreme feminism may have gained ground this past decade.

  361. Corn says:
    @Jack D

    About twenty years ago I had an older neighbor who was an Army vet who’d served in the Korean War, albeit not as a combat soldier.
    He said communicating with Koreans was quite difficult. Virtually no Americans spoke Korean, and virtually no Koreans spoke English then. He said soldiers who served some occupation duty in Japan post war who learned some Japanese could talk to Koreans, but they had to really beg and coax the Koreans. Japanese being the language of the oppressor and all, they hated speaking Japanese, though many if not most could speak at least some.

  362. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    You can’t view Pakistan in isolation. There was a worldwide revival of Islamic fervor. Saudi money was behind some of it.

    A lot of this was driven by demographics as the religiously conservative countryside folk came to outnumber Westernized, urbanized sophisticates. We are seeing the same thing in NYC where the Orthodox Jews are becoming the dominant Jewish group even though they started out as a small % of the Jewish population. If there is a differential in birth rate (and especially if one group is below replacement level) generation after generation, then after a few generations (surprisingly few) you get a big shift in the composition of the population to the point where the country is almost unrecognizable from its past version. The mini-skirt wearing college co-eds of Tehran 1970 would think that they had landed in another country if they woke up in Tehran 2020.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Art Deco
    , @nebulafox
  363. Wency says:
    @Half-Jap

    Interesting stuff.

    At first I was confused as to how the George Kennan I knew as a first-hand observer of Hitler’s conquest of Czechoslovakia and Realist Cold War foreign policy critic could be penning articles about Korea in 1905. But that was George F. Kennan, apparently a cousin to this George Kennan, turn of the century traveler/explorer.

    My BoomerCon father thought George F. Kennan weak on Communism, but it seems to me Kennan’s views would not be out of place on this forum.

  364. Malla says:
    @street shitter

    The difference started after Lord Macaulay’s reforms in education. Before that Persian was the elite lingua Franca of India for a long time. But after Macaulay’s reform it was English. Actually even among the British, you had the “lets keep Persian camp” and the “English education” camp, about 50-50% and the English education camp led by Lord Macaulay won out at the end. The Hindu (mostly upper castes like Brahmins and Kayasthas) being nimble and more flexible took to English education faster and immediately (and became the core of the early Independence Movement) while the Muslims in their arrogance and shock of loss of prestige of Persian languished behind. This was more so in Bengal. Yes the Muslims (in India and Bengal) had their own Western educated elites but it was much smaller than the Hindus, predominantly Shia types like Bohras. Jinnah for example was Western educated. So even during the British Raj days, Western Bengal with its Calcutta advanced while Eastern Bengal remained more rural. Jute was farmed in Eastern Bengal and then processed in factories in the West. Also Eastern Bengal was full of Hindu Zamindars ruling over Muslim peasants. That is why the Muslims wanted Bengal divided to reduce this Hindu domination but when Lord Curzon on account of Muslim pleas divided Bengal he faced a massive backlash from the Hindu elites (who controlled the press) and Bengal had to be reunited again.
    Bengalis wanting to join Pakistan was a case of Muslim Bengalis angry with Hindu domination and their Islamic Religious identity becoming the rallying point w.r.t Western Hindu Bengalis. But in United Pakistan, the Bengali Muslim East Pakistanis now faced domination of the Punjabi Muslims from West Pakistan!! So now again they wanted to bail out the second time this time from West Pakistani Muslims and now it was a case of East Pakistani Bengalis angry with West Pakistani Punjabi domination and their Bengali linguistic identity becoming a rallying point w.r.t the Western Pakistani Muslims. So fight for religious identity & pride earlier, followed by fight for linguistic identity & pride later led to Bangladesh.
    Even among Hindu Bengalis there is a deep divide in between Western Bengali and Eastern Bengali. Western Bengali Hindus being more snob (unfortunately many of my friends in Delhi are these) and “civilized” than the Easterner Hindu Bengali while Eastern Bengalis (both Hindus and Muslims) considering themselves more real Bengalis unlike the Western “fake” “impostors”. I believe there is a big difference in their cuisines (Western sweeter and Eastern more spicy) and they support different football teams in Calcutta just like Protestants and Catholics in Scotland supporting different football teams (Harts vs Celtics).
    BTW Bangladesh has its own version of the Indian elite engineering/technology colleges IITs called the BUET with similar rigourous entrance examinations.

  365. @Bardon Kaldian

    No, our everyday experience shows us day after day that mental tasks do not correlate with each other. Thompson’s phrasing is similar to legendary reaction to Galileo’s Pisa experiment: We rather believe Aristotle than our own eyes.

    This is veering dangerously close to the rather useless notion of “lived experience.” I think we can consider the notion of g valid at least from the negative perspective, starting with the extremes: what if the prefrontal cortex was damaged? Well, we have several examples, at least one of a celebrity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy

    So damage specifically to the prefrontal cortex(which is essentially only human) causes major disruption in cognition, as a common substrate by which cognitive tasks are done.

    So would it be so unusual to think that the opposite could be true? That there’s a kind of common substrate that can improve the functionality of cognition? I do not think so, and as I indicated before, there is also evidence toward this besides the statistical:

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26639-the-smart-mouse-with-the-half-human-brain/

    Human astrocytes are 10 to 20 times the size of mouse astrocytes and carry 100 times as many tendrils. This means they can coordinate all the neural signals in an area far more adeptly than mouse astrocytes can. “It’s like ramping up the power of your computer,” says Goldman.

    A battery of standard tests for mouse memory and cognition showed that the mice with human astrocytes are much smarter than their mousy peers.

    In one test that measures ability to remember a sound associated with a mild electric shock, for example, the humanised mice froze for four times as long as other mice when they heard the sound, suggesting their memory was about four times better. “These were whopping effects,” says Goldman. “We can say they were statistically and significantly smarter than control mice.”

    Goldman first reported last year that mice with human glial cells are smarter. But the human cells his team injected then were mature so they simply integrated into the mouse brain tissue and stayed put.

    This time, he injected the precursors of these cells, glial progenitor cells, which were able to divide and multiply. That, he says, explains how they were able to take over the mouse brains so completely, stopping only when they reached the physical limits of the space.

    Note that this was not domain specific to the mice. They did not merely get better at solving mazes, learning stimuli or making associations: they got better at everything. If this is true of mice, is it so hard to imagine that this could be true of men?

    We can at least agree that a common substrate is needed for “intelligence”, much like we can agree that “legs” are needed for “walking.” Surely we could agree that certain legs are better for jumping, others for running, and others for sprinting, but at the same time, there is a place for just larger legs to be essentially better at all three tasks.

  366. Malla says:
    @Twinkie

    Oh, Koreans? Totally useless people.

    Well Alleyne Ireland in that linked book had a different view.
    Korea, on the other hand, presents the rare spectacle of one civilized race ruling another civilized race. It is true that at the time Japan annexed Korea, in 1910, the actual conditions of life in the Peninsula were extremely bad. This was not due, however, to any lack of inherent intelligence and ability in the Korean race, but to the stupidity and corruption which for five hundred years had, almost continuously, characterized the government of the Korean dynasty, and to the existence during that period of a royal court which maintained throughout Korea a system of licensed cruelty and corruption.

    Such was the misrule under which the Koreans had suffered for generation after generation that all incentive to industry, thrift, and social progress had been destroyed, because none of the common people had been allowed to enjoy the fruits of their own efforts.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  367. Malla says:
    @street shitter

    So Indians have not “brought up” Durban, have not really developed it, at least visually.

    Indians may not have brought up Durban but Indians face a lot of hate from the Blacks there because Indians are quite well off and mercantile (own a lot of shops) population leading to a lot of jealousy. Unfortunately for the Indians there, the Blacks in that areas are predominantly warrior like Zulus!!! Yeah bad luck, not the kind of Black Africans you want as your enemies.
    But few Zulus and Indians got along very well in looting South Africa. Zulu ANC President Zuma (“shower and thau shall be safe” genius) got in bed with Indian slimeball Gupta family (from my native UP BTW, not surprising) and together committed a lot of scams, nearly hollowed South Africa out. They were even collectively called Zuptas (Zuma + Gupta). Surprising about showerman Zulu Zuma being president too as the ANC are dominated by Xhosa who are enemies of the Zulus. To divert attention of South Africans away from the mega scammings, the Guptas paid a British P.R. firm to rile up Blacks South Africans against Whites South African. Paid Black “activists” (most of those Black activists can be bought easy) went around making noise & attacking White South African farmers, while the Guptas looted out the country and holed up with their loot in Dubai.

  368. Malla says:
    @Foreign Expert

    Strangely the Filipinos have or had a lot of half Filipino Spaniards who created a kind of Brahman like elite caste over pure native Filipinos and were quite an exploitative lot. Well, just like Latin America. This was mentioned in a book by Catherine Mayo on the Philippines during American rule. According to her the Americans were seen as the protectors of the pure Filipinos from these half Spanish brats and the half Spanish brats hated the Americans.

  369. anon[269] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    The mini-skirt wearing college co-eds of Tehran 1970 would think that they had landed in another country if they woke up in Tehran 2020.

    They would be correct, because the past is another country and they do things differently there.

  370. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    Religiously conservative countryside folk always outnumbered urban sophisticates. Suggest two other hypotheses:

    1. Thomas Sowell’s: recrimination is the modal human response to reversals of fortune. Islamic militancy is an idiom of recrimination in this case.

    2. Daniel Pipes’: rural communities are commonly composed of sets of extended families, which allow for more relaxed practice in mundane human relations, because a women moves among her cousins. More restrictive practice takes hold in settings where you move in a matrix of strangers. Also, organic communities have cultural habits and local customs which mitigate the severity of black-letter Islam. Urbanization and literacy promote black-letter Islam. (Robert Spencer has in his own commentary emphasized that moderate Islam is a cultural habit while militant Islam is orthodox).

    In re New York: as recently as 30 years ago, the orthodox made up about 8% of the self-identified Jewish population nationally. It’s going to be a while before they’re modal among a (proportionately much smaller) Jewish community. Also, the orthodox are not particularly affluent. Pound for pound, they’re not going to have the kind of influence secular Jews do today.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  371. Bill B. says:
    @Ancient Briton

    The ethnic advantage? Boring but lucrative: high mark up food, minimum wages, minimal benefits.

    They can also lock in a backbone of fellow ethnics as managers etc. who are at ease in this kind of company. When the velocity-of-circulation of money it tilted towards minorities I wonder what advantage the lauded economic benefits are to ordinary whites.

  372. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    Re: #2 – a large part of the population of Pakistan consists of the descendants of refugees who fled India at the time of independence. These are people with no organic roots in Pakistani villages.

    Likewise, virtually all of the Hasidim in NY are descendants of Holocaust survivors whose social structure was also disrupted. My parents remembered pre-Holocaust Jewish shtetl life and religious practice was much more relaxed than modern Chasidic practice. These people are acting more like their grandfathers than people of their generation or later. The Jews of E. Europe (even the very Rebbe’s themselves – the Lubavitcher Rebbe received a modern Western university education) were tending toward modernity in their lives.

    a (proportionately much smaller) Jewish community

    Some here may cheer this. OTOH, the ultra-Orthodox in NY are rapid Trump supporters, so maybe not.

  373. @JMcG

    I married the dishwasher!

    The old joke:

    A man and his wife are in the kitchen and he is pawing her, pushing for sex. She says “leave me alone, I’m trying to put a load in the dishwasher” and he replies “that’s what I’m doing too”

    Also, shut up Reg and Achmed!

  374. @JMcG

    JMcG, we ordered a plate as a table share as we read the menu. There is something about duck fat, maybe the fact that it congeals on the fries, but not a good taste.

  375. Twinkie says:
    @Malla

    to the stupidity and corruption which for five hundred years had, almost continuously, characterized the government of the Korean dynasty

    This is hyperbole and ignorance. The Joseon Dynasty had its high points – it’s golden years – and low points. Judging the entirety of a long-reigning dynasty by a particular ebb might sound rhetorically satisfying, but was badly off the mark.

    My point in bringing up Jack London’s “Yellow Peril” was precisely this – that what few outsiders who cared to observe Koreans at the turn of the century often made their pronouncements based on tiny bit of contemporary knowledge and lacked deep understanding of Korea’s long history.

    Jack London’s assertion that Koreans were a completely lackluster and useless people – totally unlike the hardworking Chinese and the clever Japanese – comes off silly today. And that’s because London didn’t know much about Koreans or their history and simply judged them based on his very narrow observations of a particular time. It would be akin to judging the national character of the Germans based on the immediate postwar period – as people who are dirty, starved, depressed, and defeated.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Malla
  376. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    Saudi money never helps matters, but I view it as a secondary, exacerbating factor. The real root of the tide of religious conservatism is more rooted in globalization and urbanization. I’ll let someone talk about the details of South Asia, but I can talk about Indonesia: local syncretic traditions in places like Java are very rooted in a village setting. If you remove the kampung, the traditions fade. With Indonesia connected to the rest of the world, orthodox, mainstream Islam would be the inevitable vacuum filler, even without Saudi cash.

    Bearing that in mind, Bangladesh serves as a useful comparison point: the country does deal with Islamic radicals who do engage in terrorist acts, but there’s nothing on the level of Pakistan’s sectarian problems. I will defer to someone from the region on this, but I suspect Pakistan has a number of relatively unique factors ranging from sectarian splits to the degree of influence held by the military (where many officers subscribe to fundamentalist Islam) and the ISI over civilian government. I don’t think this was inevitable, per se, but this does have something to do with Pakistan’s origin story. Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a suit-wearing whiskey drinker, but he still legally defended Muslims accused of murdering Hindus who blasphemed the Prophet in British India.

    >The mini-skirt wearing college co-eds of Tehran 1970 would think that they had landed in another country if they woke up in Tehran 2020.

    They weren’t the ones listening on the radio to Khomenini, though, and I suspect they were demographically in the minority. It was the young migrants from the countryside working at construction sites who the Ayatollah pitched to… guys who, unlike their parents, had a high school education, were literate, and were politically aware. The Iranian economy at the time had a hard time handling all the new graduates, which was one of the tensions that led to the revolution.

    It’s funny how mass literacy and education can sometimes lead to unexpected results. The invention of the printing press in Europe probably was a key factor in kicking off Protestantism and the wars of religion. I’m conflicted on this because the belief that knowledge is good and truth is preferable to lies is too innately tied into my world-view to remove at this stage in life, but there’s no denying that people with a “base-line” level of education are often susceptible to rather crude, fanatical world-views.

    • Replies: @Malla
  377. nebulafox says:
    @Twinkie

    I mean… if you survived for 600 years as a dynasty, you had to have done *something* right?

  378. Malla says:
    @Twinkie

    This is hyperbole and ignorance. The Joseon Dynasty had its high points – it’s golden years – and low points. Judging the entirety of a long-reigning dynasty by a particular ebb might sound rhetorically satisfying, but was badly off the mark.

    Yes that could be true. Traditional Korean culture is quite a high sophisticated culture and of course elements of it predate the Joseon Dynasty probably thousands of years in Korea. It is possible they came to a wrong conclusion about the whole Josoen Dynasty by conditions in late 19th century Korea.

    But my point for including that section of the book by Alleyne Ireland is that Mr Ireland unlike Jack London, knew and mentioned that Koreans to be an intelligent, capable and civilized ethnic group. Jack London surely came to a wrong conclusion, I have only read one book of his in my childhood “Call of the Wild’ which I loved. But Alleyne Ireland has many deeply researched scholarly books on the subject of colonialism to his name.

  379. Malla says:
    @nebulafox

    Everywhere in various Colonial empires, it were the Western educated elites who led the Independence Movements, so educating the natives with Western education actually backfired. However as far as Lord Macaulay and India was concerned, Lord Macaulay said in the British Parliament that if India started demanding political rights, that would be a day of pride for England. Many of those Western educated elites even became Communists.
    The point is you have to have an economy to absorb all those newly educated folks and give them worthy jobs. Secondly many first generation upward mobile folks tend to still have many traditional parochial views as they have just moved to cities and their childhoods have been spent in villages. So they tend to support some crazy conservative movement (Islamic fundamentalist or Hindutva for example) out of anger for their condition or maybe out of jealousy and hatred for the earlier posh elite bourgeoisie class, maybe even support Communism. The second generations and third generations (from the villages) tend to fall of liberalism, feminism and all kinds of libtard nonsense and many end up not even having kids.
    We really need textbooks from NS Germany as models for our schools.

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