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"Tully" with Charlize Theron
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Tully stars Charlize Theron as a 41-year-old mom having her third child with her suburban nice guy husband, played by Mark Duplass. It’s from the team of screenwriter Diablo Cody (a ridiculous stripper name) and director Jason Reitman, who made the surprisingly insightful Juno in 2007.

When Cody won the Best Screenwriting Oscar for her Liz Phairesque first movie, there was much gossip about how she must have enticed some old pro into writing it for her. But then, with Theron and Patton Oswalt, Cody and Reitman made the even better Young Adult in 2011.

Tully is about 2/3rds realistic portrayal of just how physically wearing having a newborn baby is and about 1/3rd speculative psychological drama as an exhausted Theron looks back on her carefree 20s:

“I rode every horse on the carousel.”

“Which horse was your husband?”

“The bench.”

The Roissyesque aspect of that dialogue may not be a coincidence. Cody’s combination of libertine id and conservative wisdom is pretty similar to Roissy’s, but from the female perspective.

There are quite a few good things about Tully: In particular, Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role, she lights up the screen. The combination of a big star in a modestly scaled movie (the film is only 94 minutes long) is refreshing.

Also, while many actresses like to play Giving Birth scenes, movies tend to gloss over the aftermath as And They All Lived Happily Ever After, when in reality the next several months are often a struggle.

Unfortunately, Tully doesn’t quite pull off its Big Plot Twist. It’s close, but that’s also frustrating in that it seems like a week’s script doctoring could have papered over the holes in the plot.

 
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  1. Anonymous[381] • Disclaimer says:

    How can you watch this s**t? No offense Steve, but maybe you should put your noticing to good use and start lifting weights and or get on some steroids or test replacement therapy.

    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dus8r5l5cys
    , @Capta!n 0bvious
    Two points:

    A) Anyone who still goes to the j00vies [or pays for j00vies to be streamed to their iPhags] is at best a cuck. AT. BEST.

    B) Everyone is stealing material from Le Chateau. Some filthy phucking YKW stole an entire Time Magazine cover story from sh!znat which I poasted au Chateau in the summer of 2015 [involving, ironically enough, Tom Wolfe's white shoes].

    C) Judging from the Dan Maurio pictures which j00gle serves up, that wisecrack about "The Bench" was a purdy srs phreudian slip on Diablo's part. Muh Man Maurio might wanna get some DNA tests on them kids.

    D) But at least the kids look kinda White, and if all of them are indeed White [no eggplant, no (((lizard-people)))], then Bless You Diablo & Keep Up The Good Work.

    Actually, that's four points, but (((Ron Unz))) always gonna get moar than (((he))) paid for. Otherwise (((he))) wouldn't be (((Ron Unz))).
  2. Is this a fat chick flick?

  3. Diablo Cody was a successful blogger during a wierd period in the normalization of porn and the rise of new media, who wrote about being a literate stripper, and did some political material. She could never touch Belle du Jour on her best day.

    • Replies: @Rickroller
    Bunuel is a great filmmaker, but I've never gotten Belle du Jour's appeal, particularly that awful clam of an ending.
    , @Neoconned
    Agreed. Cody is and was a nasty talentless slob.

    Also, other than Adam Sandler's"Funny People" it is 1 of 2 films I have ever walked out on.....and w FP....they are the two worst films ever made....
  4. If Diablo Cody is the Liz Phair of film…

    …Juno is Exile in Guyville
    …Young Adult is Whip-Smart
    …United States of Tara is Whitechocolateggspace
    …and Tully is that album with the “Why Can’t I?” song

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    "Why Can't I" is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    https://youtu.be/f1MVkrk68Jg
    , @Danindc
    Exile in Guyville was the 90’s album of the decade. Juno was an embarrassment. I don’t see the correlation.
  5. Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @art guerrilla
    @ tinydick-

    "Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman"
    .
    so-o-o-o, a feminist's idea of a perfect man ? ? ?
    hee hee hee
    ho ho ho
    ha ha ha
    ak ak ak
    , @Captain nascimento
    sh#t incels say. or is it sh#t cucks say.
    , @Obsessive Contrarian
    You're right about Roissy.

    BTW, Young Adult was a terrific movie. But it didn't do well at the box office so I think that Tully is their (Cody, Reitman) way of trying to worm their way back into the good graces of the Good People. But I haven't seen it so what do I know?

    , @Reg Cæsar

    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

     

    I nominate him for the next Dalai Lama.

    But it's nice of you to volunteer as character witness in his harassment trial.
  6. I was impressed at Theron’s comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they’d usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn’t have pulled it off nearly as well.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    I was impressed at Theron’s comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they’d usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn’t have pulled it off nearly as well.
     
    Yeah, I didn't care for Juno, but Young Adult is something of a small masterpiece.
    , @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Young Adult = cult Classic. Theron nailed the role & the script was A++.
    It is surprising that Go Girrrl Careerism & hypergamy isn't starting to falter but it is probably just about post-peak.
    Hopefully Gen Z is making careful observations.
    , @Autochthon
    Young Adult is indeed a masterpiece, especially insightful about writing as an unglamorous business and and craft which is all about toiling over a computer, editing with an eye for what can sell (vs. the silly idea into is about being touched with a divine gift and magically producing deep art – it never has been; not even for Shakespeare and Dickens!).

    I've wondered how much of that film had informal or uncredited input from Oswalt, who is a brilliant and under appreciated screenwriter. See, for instance, his understanding that entertainment is a business much more than an artsy-fartsy calling: "Sellout.
  7. I’m not sure why this came to mind, but a movie I bet you would enjoy is called Ink. It is a sci-fi movie from ten years ago.

  8. @Harry Baldwin
    I was impressed at Theron's comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they'd usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn't have pulled it off nearly as well.

    I was impressed at Theron’s comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they’d usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn’t have pulled it off nearly as well.

    Yeah, I didn’t care for Juno, but Young Adult is something of a small masterpiece.

  9. @Anonymous
    How can you watch this s**t? No offense Steve, but maybe you should put your noticing to good use and start lifting weights and or get on some steroids or test replacement therapy.

  10. I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There’s a reason why women should have their kids in their 20’s as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it’s easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don’t put it off until the last moment. Because it’s a study on self-inflicted misery.

    • Agree: Simon in London, TWS
    • Replies: @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.
    , @Anonymous
    Haven't seen the movie, not likely to, but: if it's her third kid she should know what's involved and how much work it is. Besides, it's the first kid that is usually the big shock since half the work and two thirds the stress of new parenthood is from the lack of experience with infants. Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it's the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration. The infant just eats, shits and sleeps, and they are used to that.
    , @Berty
    Why thank you for that brilliant insight, Mr. Old Boomer Guy.

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.
    , @Glaivester

    If you like children then don’t put it off until the last moment.
     
    Depending on how old her other kids are, she probably didn't put it off until the last moment. This isn't her first child. In fact, was she even trying for a third child or is this just a happy accident?

    My parents had me when Mom was in her early 40s (Dad in his mid 40s). Mom had 3 kids when she was in her 20s.

    There probably should be a distinction between "waited until she was older to have kids" and "kept having kids after she got older."
    , @Thea
    some of us started in our twenties and continuously had children through our early forties. It's natural and what our foremothers always did till the Boomers screwed everything up.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Rod, another name for Rod is Dick, as in you are one. My wife had our first daughter when she was 43 and the second at 45. We married when she was 38 and I was 36. We had lived full lives and travelled extensively, our honeymoon being 33 days visiting what we used to call the Orient. As a mature woman she was heads and shoulders above most of our daughters friend's moms. Primigravida is certainly not advisable for some women, just as motherhood isn't for all women. Oh, and my youngest daughter from my first marriage had her son at 42. She came through fine and my grandson is a gem. Happy Mother's Day Rod.
    , @TWS
    My sister had kids into her late forties. She has no energy for the second batch luckily she at least learned the ropes with her first batch.
  11. TBH, I hate dramedies. The best films are about escapism, IMO: edge of your seat suspense, bellyaching laughs, and high adventure. Popcorn films.

  12. Another anti-family Hollywood POS.

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    What are you talking about? Cody and Reitman are producing some of the most slyly conservative films in Hollywood. It's a wonder they can make traditionalist themes so relevant to contemporary audiences.

    Juno (have the baby, you won't regret it)
    Young Adult (not having a baby sucks; suburban life > urban striving)
    Up in the Air (being alone sucks, get married)
    Paradise (small-town Christian values really aren't so bad after all)
    Labor Day (fathers are really important)
  13. @Harry Baldwin
    I was impressed at Theron's comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they'd usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn't have pulled it off nearly as well.

    Young Adult = cult Classic. Theron nailed the role & the script was A++.
    It is surprising that Go Girrrl Careerism & hypergamy isn’t starting to falter but it is probably just about post-peak.
    Hopefully Gen Z is making careful observations.

  14. Diablo Cody (a ridiculous stripper name)

    She came up with it long before moonlighting as a stripper.

    The first time I saw the name, I assumed it was real and she was black. That may have been because it was her review of The Chocolate Factory in City Pages. No, not Rocky Mountain’s, and certainly not Willy Wonka’s, but this one*:

    (Sorry, I didn’t mean to tully anyone’s reputation.)

    her Liz Phairesque first movie

    Hey, they’re both “sex-positive feminists” from the Chicago ‘burbs. Great minds think alike.

    Unfortunately, Tully doesn’t quite pull off its Big Plot Twist.

    If you want to know how much she (or any other actress) pulls off, go to Celebrity Movie Archive.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    *Note the same spelling error as in Steve's interview with Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann-- it should read revue.
  15. @Reg Cæsar

    Diablo Cody (a ridiculous stripper name)
     
    She came up with it long before moonlighting as a stripper.

    The first time I saw the name, I assumed it was real and she was black. That may have been because it was her review of The Chocolate Factory in City Pages. No, not Rocky Mountain's, and certainly not Willy Wonka's, but this one*:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONpNnfDs6vI

    (Sorry, I didn't mean to tully anyone's reputation.)


    her Liz Phairesque first movie
     
    Hey, they're both "sex-positive feminists" from the Chicago 'burbs. Great minds think alike.

    Unfortunately, Tully doesn’t quite pull off its Big Plot Twist.
     
    If you want to know how much she (or any other actress) pulls off, go to Celebrity Movie Archive.

    *Note the same spelling error as in Steve’s interview with Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann– it should read revue.

  16. J.Ross says: • Website
    • Replies: @larry lurker
    Kind of a dick move to turn the lights out in a common room so you can take a nap, but not worth summoning the police over. The black student's accent (Nigerian?) should have been a hint to the white student that she probably wasn't some random homeless woman.
    , @Anon
    The black woman had a huge chip on her shoulder, so I really, really want to hate her, but the white woman seems to be a head case in her own right. She has law and engineering degrees and is pursuing a philosophy Ph.D. What job is she pursuing, and how much are her student loans going to end up being? And is "she" a woman-born-woman or trans (engineering?)?

    This is a case where I really want a lot more facts. Where is the dormatory located? Is it a security building? What is the neighborhood like, crime, demographics? What is the previous history of these two?--a prior encounter was hinted at. Why was the woman sleeping there rather than in her room? Did the white woman know the black women and lie in the report to the police that she was an intruder? And why is the media not asking questions like this before running with the party line? And why is there not a third-party contrarian website asking and investigating questions like this to steal traffic from the normal aggregators by offering something unique?

    , @Johnny Smoggins
    We're desperately overdue for a chimp out, maybe this could help act as a trigger. Related to this, Starbuck's has announced that anyone who wants to, can use their bathrooms with no purchase necessary. It would be fun to see their urban locations turn into homeless shelters the way public libraries have.
    , @AndrewR
    I sympathized with the black girl when I saw the video, but then I saw her Facebook post and it was "wahhh being black in America is so awful but we shall overcome."

    So many black people act like only black people have to put up with rude people, or deal with cops. If this country's racial divide is remotely fixable, it will require blacks to be much more judicious in their accusations of racism. They need to understand that white people go through 95% of the shit they do: dealing with rude people, suspicious people, etc. Twice I have had the cops called on me while new to a neighborhood because the neighbors didn't recognize me, and I'm white as they come.
  17. If you enjoy talking to robots when calling companies, Google has created a free app that lets anyone have a realistic robat that uptalks and says “ummm” call you!

  18. Tully is being marketed as a romantic comedy, while it is really a horror movie. Is that right?

    If so, I think that you should tell us the Big Plot Twist. People should not get Rosemary’s Baby when they are expecting a romantic comedy.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's not really a horror plot twist.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    , @MEH 0910
    I don't care about seeing this movie, so I spoiled the plot for myself by looking it up at Wikipedia. I can confirm what Steve said, that the plot twist is not a horror plot twist.

    Now Pandorum, that movie had a (sci-fi) horror plot twist(s).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wAfG-KuOeI
  19. I immediately, felt this was just another boring movie about Millennial/Gen X women worrying about childbirth, babies, losing sleep, losing their hot bodies once and for all. So tired of women whining about losing out if they have kids. For the record: I have children – all healthy – pregnancies were all normal but my body does not do “labor”/had to have cesareans… which were just as natural as anything else. I lived; and I raised them to adulthood. They have driver’s licenses and pay taxes.

    I have more respect for the babies/kids/teens who had to endure the world, without their parents…in whatever Millennium:

    • Replies: @Zeroh Tollrants
    Yes! I *hate* stories about women whining about all they have to suffer and give up by having children. I hate these women, I have no sympathy for them, and they are nothing but narcissistic, attention-seeking a&&holes.
    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life. I had my first one right after my 22 birthday. She's almost 30, has two kids in elementary school & is a dentist. She also didn't know she was supposed to be whiny and beg for attention over her great sacrifice, because we don't *do* that in my family.
  20. I’m hoping this isn’t one of those movies that assure young women that they can ride the carousel until they get kicked off before having kids, and that the only problem is feeling tired.

    Mother’s Age / Odds of Downs / Odds of chromosomal abnormality

    20 years old / 1 in 1923 / 1 in 526
    30 years old / 1 in 885 / 1 in 384
    40 years old / 1 in 109 / 1 in 63
    41 years old / 1 in 85 / 1 in 48
    42 years old / 1 in 67 / 1 in 39

    • Replies: @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    , @Sam
    One could really produce a quite subversive film about a woman post-wall who finds out her baby might have som abnormality. That would allow a red pill moment where a doctor patiently explains the reality outlined in the post above. The film would be allowed to show this hormonal pregnan woman raging at sexist “society” for not educating women about this.(Of course we all know the real reason) To shore up the liberal credentials it could have a scene with the woman in dispair and considering abortion.
    , @William Badwhite
    There's also the issue of finding a guy willing to buy the well-used cow. Maybe some guys are okay with marrying a former carousel-riding trollop, but most are not.

    What sometimes happens is they end up marrying a lower status guy than they would have had they done a better job of keeping their legs together.

    I know a woman like that (she was my girlfriend through most of high school) - a 7 pushing an 8 on the looks meter. But then she slept with dozens of guys in college and after. By her late 20's nobody in our hometown had any interest. She'd call me periodically to see if we could "give it another shot". No thanks. I'd let her spend the night though.

    She moved away and ended up marrying some fat slob IT guy. I don't know if he knows she used to be a pin cushion or not. He's happy to have a 7/8 and he's the best she could do. Last time I talked to her, she was not happy about it.
  21. @Roger
    Tully is being marketed as a romantic comedy, while it is really a horror movie. Is that right?

    If so, I think that you should tell us the Big Plot Twist. People should not get Rosemary's Baby when they are expecting a romantic comedy.

    It’s not really a horror plot twist.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.
     
    I hope you don't mean deus (or dea) ex machina.
    , @Roger
    Modestly upbeat ending? Okay, I will take your word for it. I don't know how upbeat it can be when a new mom turns out to have a severe mental illness. Such things are not usually curable.
    , @donut
    "Young Adult" Screenplay by Diablo Cody was another Charlize Theron flick . It looked like a comedy in the trailer but I found it to be gloomy and depressing but quite good . I won't see this movie though . I've got my own gloomy and depressing life .
    BTW have you seen "You Were Never Really Here" ? The same writer director did "We Need to Talk About Kevin" which I thought was quite good .
  22. @Anon7
    I’m hoping this isn’t one of those movies that assure young women that they can ride the carousel until they get kicked off before having kids, and that the only problem is feeling tired.

    Mother’s Age / Odds of Downs / Odds of chromosomal abnormality

    20 years old / 1 in 1923 / 1 in 526
    30 years old / 1 in 885 / 1 in 384
    40 years old / 1 in 109 / 1 in 63
    41 years old / 1 in 85 / 1 in 48
    42 years old / 1 in 67 / 1 in 39

    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    • Agree: Rosie, DCThrowback
    • Replies: @sabril

    An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.
     
    If you mean "young men," then I pretty much agree, although men, having a longer fertility window can do just fine marrying and starting a family between 25 and 30.

    If you give a woman a family wage job in her 20s, she will be less likely to have children and more likely to blow her extra money on handbags, going out with her girlfriends, etc.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.
     
    Agreed.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.
     
    As noted above, things will work fine if men are eager to marry between 25 and 30. But even so, I think you would be surprised at the percentage of men in their 20s who would be happy to get married.

    People have a tendency to focus on the small percentage of men who have the looks and charisma to jump from girl to girl and have no interest in settling down. They conclude that men are commitment-phobic, but this is only a small percentage of men.
    , @Anon7
    I guess you had an axe (or two) to grind.

    As it turns out, my wife and I have been married for thirty years, and have two wonderful children now in their mid-twenties.

    You seem to be quite bitter about the world that the feminists and the globalists have made, a world in which men can’t find jobs at the high end (legal immigration of tech workers from Asia), can’t find jobs at the low end (too much illegal immigration) and can’t find jobs in the middle (factories moved out of the country). And are denied opportunities and paychecks at all levels by women who double the size of the workforce, halve the size of wages and demand that men bow down before them, especially the white men who are after all the worst humans in history. No wonder they don’t want to take the enormous risk of having a family.

    As far as black and Hispanic women having babies is concerned, I don’t think I mentioned that, but as long as you brought it up, I think that women do NOT have the right to the Life of Julia in which they get to bang whoever they want and have children that they expect me and the rest of us to pay for, at any age. You can add white and Asian women to that list while you’re at it.

    Looks like we all have axes to grind.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    Not one thing in your reply addresses the actual biological issues.

    Your rambles are also half-nonsense which has been addressed by reactionaries since the 1920s, but for what it is worth, consider the groups which do in fact manage large families: its almost always highly religious groups(Mormons being the prime example), which suggests that the throttling has only a little to do with economics.

    A specific area of my study, Catholic French Canada, was averaging between 4-8 TFR before the Quiet Revolution as well and again, it had little to do with expenditures as we understand it: average income would seem appalling low by today's standards, families lived together(even grandparents), and a statistically significant percentage of the people went into non-income generating religious studies(3% of women were nuns or novices to nuns). And yet, 4-8 TFR.

    And for what it is worth, my wife was 19 when I married her and I certainly wasn't 20-22.
    , @AndrewR
    The nuclear family is becoming a relic of the 20th century.

    As the wage to cost-of-living ratio decreases, people will be living in multigenerational households more, with extended kin close by. This is conducive to higher birth rates. The "we want a big house in the suburbs with a big lawn that dad has to mow every week and two cars to chauffeur our 1.8 kids around, living hundreds if not thousands of miles from most of our kin" thing is becoming an archaic model for which future generations will hold us in contempt.
    , @Lot
    Black teen birth rate is down about 85% from 80s peak if I remember right. Lead removal and welfare reform worked.
    , @Roger
    A lot of other changes would be needed to get people marrying and having kids younger. There would have to be cultural and legal changes to undo what has changed in the last 50 years.
    , @njguy73

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?
     
    I can't find a link, but I remember hearing or reading someone state the reason why Black and Hispanic women have a cavalier attitude about being teen moms.

    It's because due to urban violence and the poor health care offered where they live, they're not sure if they'll live to see 30. They don't have the luxury of postponing motherhood.
    , @Chuck

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?
     
    You're not from around here are you?
    , @MBlanc46
    I imagine that most of us like those three things. And I imagine that most of us don’t care what young Hispanic women do, as long as they don’t do it here.
  23. For general information Theron – a fairly common Afrikaans surname here in South Africa – is pronounced approximately Trrron, with a slight roll of the r.

  24. @Lagertha
    I immediately, felt this was just another boring movie about Millennial/Gen X women worrying about childbirth, babies, losing sleep, losing their hot bodies once and for all. So tired of women whining about losing out if they have kids. For the record: I have children - all healthy - pregnancies were all normal but my body does not do "labor"/had to have cesareans... which were just as natural as anything else. I lived; and I raised them to adulthood. They have driver's licenses and pay taxes.

    I have more respect for the babies/kids/teens who had to endure the world, without their parents...in whatever Millennium: https://youtu.be/5BBn-7H2kEk

    Yes! I *hate* stories about women whining about all they have to suffer and give up by having children. I hate these women, I have no sympathy for them, and they are nothing but narcissistic, attention-seeking a&&holes.
    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life. I had my first one right after my 22 birthday. She’s almost 30, has two kids in elementary school & is a dentist. She also didn’t know she was supposed to be whiny and beg for attention over her great sacrifice, because we don’t *do* that in my family.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life.
     
    Are you an opossum by any chance?

    Happy early Mother's Day.
    , @Lagertha
    Love it! I am in awe that you were just 22. You are obviously, a very strong and happy woman. Your pride with your daughter's accomplishments is wonderful. So happy that more women, normal mothers, new women, on Steve's site, are chiming in! Happy Mother's Day, to you, Zeroh T, and all of you, all the other Shield Maidens.
  25. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.
     
    They have it all worked out. When you're 15, you marry a dirty old man three times your age and start having babies after a brief honeymoon period.
    , @BB753
    "When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands."

    There's an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
    You can't blame men for women's choices. Most women today prefer to have a "career" and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
    Disclaimer: I'm neither a virgin nor 90 years old.
    , @neutral

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.
     
    Is there any reason why a white woman cannot also live on welfare?
    , @Joe862
    This story is about a woman who was a typical slut for many years before settling down with a guy who would actually marry her. What do you think “I rode every horse on the carousel.” means? It's unsurprisingly a big shock to the system when you go a couple of decades being a self-centered ho and then try to pivot to wife and mother. The guy she married is probably the guy she was too good for up until her biological clock forced her to grow up. He was probably never a player and adjusting to family life wasn't as difficult for him.
    , @sabril
    FWIW I am a man and I was married at age 26. There is a perception that all men want to screw around, have casual sex, and party in their 20s and 30s, but the majority of men don't even have that option since they are not in the top 10-20% of looks/money/status.

    There are lots of men between the ages of 25 and 30 who would be happy to marry a girl who is roughly their age; childless; not obese; and looking to settle down. Unfortunately there are not a lot of women who meet these criteria these days.
    , @Karl
    25 Anon[257] > who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby


    all by myself, i can knock up every one of your daughters and nieces, in a few weeks of activity

  26. Anonymous[119] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    Haven’t seen the movie, not likely to, but: if it’s her third kid she should know what’s involved and how much work it is. Besides, it’s the first kid that is usually the big shock since half the work and two thirds the stress of new parenthood is from the lack of experience with infants. Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it’s the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration. The infant just eats, shits and sleeps, and they are used to that.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it’s the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration.
     
    This is true, but it doesn't make much difference in the end. The point is that subsequent children are harder, because you are also dealing with the older ones.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    I read a piece in the business press in the past few months, perhaps the WSJ, in which the author said being the fourth of seven left him with the duty of watching the younger ones while the elder sibs got to do what they wanted. Anyone recognize this article?

    Paul Cowsill, also the fourth of seven, said exactly the same thing in the documentary Family Band.

    My uncle was also 4/7, with a huge gap between him and the next (it was the Depression, and he had to travel for masonry work; Fred Trump wasn't hiring yet.) I'll have to ask my cousins about this.
  27. Who gains 40 pounds when pregnant? Only in movies I guess.

    2 kinds of comedies I can’t stand and never watch. First is wedding preparation comedies. Second is getting pregnant being pregnant and having the baby comedies.

    Can’t figure out which is worse, the ones where the couple has to make an effort to get pregnant and the reluctant husband has to preform on order snicker snicker

    Then there are the ones where the baby is a Jewish boy and the million vulgar Bris jokes

    Then the diaper changing jokes like a 3 year old giggling about the baby going poopie.

    But the wedding comedies are the worst

    • Replies: @Anon
    The 40 pounds wasn't what Theron gained when actually pregnant, nor what any character in the movie says you should gain when pregnant. It's simply what she gained to look right for the role. Theron seems like a typical rail-thin model type, so maybe 40 pounds isn't crazy if she wants to look pregnant.

    Women who are underweight (meaning BMI under 18.5) until 2009 were recommended to gain 30 to 40 pounds by the Institute of Medicine, a quasi-governmental body that works with various governmental agencies on health standards. Currently the recommendation for underweight are 28 to 40 pounds, which tracks the World Health Organization's recommendations.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Yeah, those baby comedies often have the “ha ha, look at the stupid new dad trying to change a diaper, getting pooped and peed on, etc...” joke that has been worn to death. In reality, new dads will find that changing a diaper is probably one of the easiest things they will have to do.
    , @(((Owen)))
    My mom was model thin when she got pregnant with my little sister. She gained over 50 pounds to have a healthy pregnancy and my sister was a big baby. Then my mom shrunk back to being skinny again, though she was never model thin again.

    And that was a good thing. Model thin girls do not look better in real life. When a girl looks like that, her family worries.
  28. Anonymous[119] • Disclaimer says:

    OT, but funny:

    Man Allegedly Used Change Of Address Form To Move UPS Headquarters To His Apartment

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/10/610102872/man-allegedly-used-change-of-address-form-to-move-ups-headquarters-to-his-apartm

    Disclaimer: As a former UPSer myself, I have no sympathy for UPS, but the fact that the even more stupid USPS would deliver a shit ton of mail marked UPS to a private apartment…….Anyone receiving that much mail to an apartment should be a huge red flag in and of itself, as well as any private residence receiving any mail addressed to a major corporation-and I know for a personal fact that the USPS knows who UPS are. They’re like the Hell’s Angels and the Pagan’s that way. (The apostrophe in “Pagan’s” is how they spell it. Don’t ask why.)

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang? I've always wondered. I've been driving motorcycles since I was nine years old, but I've never once, to my knowledge, encountered a motorcycle gang – and I've lived all over the place, and in many places with tons of crime and seedy stuff. Oh, I expect I've encountered a member of a motorcycle gang and not known it – some cat at a bar with a hog out front was in the Hell's Angels; some group riding together past me on the freeway were in a gang, or whatever. But where's the crime? Where are the news reports about even the aftermath? When's the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days? A quick look into the Pagan's unearths some kind of raid on a guy's house for weapons the government didn't want him to have (maybe he was a felon?) in 2009. That was almost ten years ago, and it doesn't seem especially motorcyle-y, anyway. Are motorcycle gangs just more subtle now? Are the motorcycles no longer integral to their shenanigans? They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus? And if so, are they really a motorcycle gang? I mean, I bet lots of groups of drug-dealers or members of the Crips or MS-13 drive drugs around in so-called sport-utility vehicles or pickup trucks (they're popular!), but we don't speak about the the Crips as an "SUV Gang." What gives? I realise these musings are inane, but your remarks genuinely prompted me to wonder, in a profound, Seinfeld-ian way: "Motorcycle gangs – what's the deal?!" Does anyone know more about this topic?
    , @Harry Baldwin
    They’re like the Hell’s Angels and the Pagan’s that way. (The apostrophe in “Pagan’s” is how they spell it. Don’t ask why.)

    And, ironically, "Hells Angels" doesn't take an apostrophe. At least not the way they like it, and I wouldn't argue grammar with a biker.

    Regarding the UPS story: hilarious. Black people come up with the craziest scams sometimes, gotta give them credit.

    , @Elmer T. Jones
    Last time I relocated I used the USPS change of address function but have since realized they sell that data to advertisers who now bombard my mailbox with junk.

    Regarding the racism incident about a black girl sleeping in a dorm area. This follows the same old pattern : empowered woman calls the authorities over a situation where a man would have politely and quietly handled it and now it's another horror story about systemic racism in America. It's about women calling the police. I posted this observation on Slate and got banned for it.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Muggeride's Law in action
    , @MBlanc46
    Too many employees of the USPS look like the perp.
  29. Anonymous[917] • Disclaimer says:

    Outrageous stats from anon7… source?

    Probably accurate. ‘Dirty’ is the adjective used most with the noun ‘whore’.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    But right now we are at peak beta-tude with that prince in england marrying the 90 iq octaroon older slut. What a calamity. He should be marrying a 20 yr old Nordic goddess with brains and five kids in her future.

    • Replies: @27 year old

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.
     
    Yes.

    I believe the sugar baby industry is a precursor to the return to historical norms.

    It will eventually occur to both the men and the girls that they can simply normalize the relationship. Not as in the men suddenly marrying their sugar babies, but in both sides seeking the more conventional financial-romantic relationship with other partners, but still with the age gap.

    I predict that sugar daddies will begin to offer higher rates and bonuses for virgins. This will finally drive home the (forgotten) point to girls that it pays to keep their legs closed. Then after that, it's on. The same concept will rapidly drift over into "normal" relationships.

    This still isn't going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though. There have always been sluts, and there always will be. I think we will head toward more historical normal percentages of sluts, but never really get there. Higher base slut percentage.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Buddy of mine opined that all his other more suitable GFs backed out once they realized the endless papparazzi their new celebrity would bring. Kate Middleton enjoys the life; others probably remember Diana too well. This babe is used to celebrity.
    , @njguy73
    I agree with Jim Don Bob. Brainy, Nordic, 20-year-old goddesses don't marry royalty, at least not ones in the public eye. They marry obscure royals or reclusive billionaire CEOs.

    I woudn't be surprised if other B-level reality-show alumnae marry noblemen just to stay on the spotlight. The UK should outsource their landed gentry to the US.

    , @Anon7
    Google risk of birth defects with age and you’ll find these stats or something close. These facts are diligently concealed by feminists, except when they blame men for not funding women’s issues.

    Speaking of people who need to have basic facts explained to them, why is 33 year old Harry marrying 36 year old Markle? The reverse question I understand.

    However, speaking of statistics, it turns out that marriages between a white guy and a black woman are much less likely to end in divorce than a black guy marrying a white woman. The Queen must be pleased about that.
  30. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    Why thank you for that brilliant insight, Mr. Old Boomer Guy.

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.

    • Replies: @Autochthon

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.
     
    Ladies shouldn't swear.
    , @BB753
    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees like to hang out and talk about female fertility and the optimum age for bearing a child, which is 17 years and five months according to our latest computations. Welcome to the club! No other topics are discussed here. Female fertility, ovarian reserves, the carousel, etc remain our only topics of discussion.
  31. @J.Ross
    OT "I deserve to be here"

    some white girl at Yale called police on a black girl sleeping in the common room
    SJW rage
    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/05/08/black-student-reported-to-ypd-for-napping-in-dormitory-common-room/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/yale-student-black-police-white-sleep-common-room-lolade-siyonbola-a8344536.html?amp&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    Kind of a dick move to turn the lights out in a common room so you can take a nap, but not worth summoning the police over. The black student’s accent (Nigerian?) should have been a hint to the white student that she probably wasn’t some random homeless woman.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    When I was in school homeless people were a constant problem. I didn't hear about any frat rapes but witnessed distraught women running out of bathrooms multiple times because some smelly wierd-looking guy just walked in and sat down. It was the main focus of our college police department. And what accent does anyone have when they're sleeping?
  32. Completely OT, but I thought I’d drop by to see what Steve thought of Marathir-sprightly Mahathir, at age 92-winning in Malaysia, given the articles you wrote about him back in 2002 and 2003. I’m not terribly shocked, given the extent of the corruption scandals coming out of Kuala Lumpur and Mahathir’s LKY-esque demi-god status among a lot of ethnic Malays, but a lot of Singaporeans seem to have been blind-sided by this one.

    When you look at his (and the late LKY’s) writings and comments over the years, you realize how relatively recent a belief in blank-slate theory and fanatical Gouldism among rulers really is. Granted, they came from the same social class of post-war British colonial intelligentsia, with its odd combination of scientific progressivism and racially hierarchical beliefs, but still, comments like “I feel disappointed because I achieved too little of my principal task of making my race a successful race…” should really showcase how shallow the imbibing of PC norms is in Asia. For this reason, I fully expect the major advances in biological engineering these next 40 years will come in China: the Chinese media openly embraces eugenics.

    (Warning: do not read if you aren’t interested in a long, anal tangent.)

    George Soros hates Mahathir’s guts, for a lot reasons ranging from less-than-PC comments about Jews and Jewish influence on American politics/foreign policy (cue the Washington Post’s smarmy attention-in stark contrast to, you know, elderly Jewish ladies in Paris being thrown to their deaths. Who cares about Little People, after all?) to his typical Asian-Tiger style authoritarianism during the economic miracle of the 1980s and 1990s. So, even if you don’t care about Malaysia at all, there’s that to brighten your day. I’m unsure if the explicit rigging of society in favor of Malays-coming back to haunt Malaysia given the brain drain of Chinese-doesn’t figure up there as reasons why for Soros. On one hand, it is explicit ultra ethno-nationalism of the sort Soros is allergic to. On the other hand, it is on the behalf of the Muslims, an “oppressed” group, not at all like those Jews of Southeast Asia, the overseas Chinese. So, who knows?

    What’s never pointed out about the AA policies is that Mahathir intended this as a strictly temporary measure so that the Malays didn’t get crushed right out the gate by the Chinese and Tamils-high HBD undertones there-and give up on the idea of trying to compete. (Had it not been for a series of events in the middle of the 20th Century-the Japanese invasion and occupation awaking Malay national consciousness, the Chinese Civil War’s outcome, the mostly ethnic Chinese nature of the Emergency causing the British to move away from their traditional favoring of them, etc-it might well have been that Malays might have become minorities in their own land thanks to mass immigration of higher-IQed, fecund foreigners.) Anyway, the idea was that over time, as Malays were socially engineered to be more successful, they could gradually be exposed to minority competition which would make them more resilient, and eventually it could be repealed altogether. In this sort of optimistic, scientific approach with an unstated realism about racial characteristics, you can see the British colonial influence. LKY’s explicit tendency to encourage college graduates to marry each other, discouraging old Chinese habits like spitting, etc, is another example, though on a completely softer level-he wasn’t trying to overhaul a whole race’s characteristics.

    Needless to say, the AA policies didn’t turn out that way. You know how public gimmes go-ask the Romans how the grain dole went-once enacted, very, very hard to take back…
    Mahathir has probably reached the age where he doesn’t really care what anybody thinks anymore, but I’m hard pressed to envision that he can do it without massive riots, and in the age of the online media…

    Why do I go on about this? The history of independent Malaysia’s ethnic politics is an important clue for anybody who wants to understand what the “new” US is going to face in coming decades if the ethnic games don’t improve and current demographics continue. It’s not going to be pretty if Hispanics become like blacks and have a government-job created middle class, because America’s fiscal capabilities are far less powerful than they were in the late 60s. Another much more optimistic possibility is closer Hispanic-white ties, as Ron Unz (someone whose a helluva lot brighter than me or anybody else here) points to, but there’s a host of obstacles for that to be overcome, the most prominent being the two party system. The GOP is *worse* than useless (McConnellism at home, Boltonism abroad), the Dems are openly hostile to the declining majority. So, unless the GOP is ready to ditch Grover Norquist in favor of Theodore Roosevelt, busting the new trusts of Silicon Valley…

    Back to my code…

    (The rise of religious conservatism in the Islamic World tying in with Mahathir’s time in power-hard to believe, but back in the 1970s, it was quite rare to see hijabs on the streets of Kuala Lumpur-didn’t help matters, but that’s another story.)

  33. @Harry Baldwin
    I was impressed at Theron's comedic talents in Young Adult. It was the kind of role they'd usually give to Cameron Diaz, who couldn't have pulled it off nearly as well.

    Young Adult is indeed a masterpiece, especially insightful about writing as an unglamorous business and and craft which is all about toiling over a computer, editing with an eye for what can sell (vs. the silly idea into is about being touched with a divine gift and magically producing deep art – it never has been; not even for Shakespeare and Dickens!).

    I’ve wondered how much of that film had informal or uncredited input from Oswalt, who is a brilliant and under appreciated screenwriter. See, for instance, his understanding that entertainment is a business much more than an artsy-fartsy calling: “Sellout.

    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    Very few, if any, of us are old enough to have been contemporaries of people like Dickens or Shakespeare.

    Imagine if the famous billionaire writers of our day were that talented - that would be the opposite of silly (i.e., if billionaires like Stephen King and Rowling and the two or three others at that financial level were anywhere as good as Dickens and Shakespeare, it would be the opposite of silly to think they were divinely gifted).

    I guess it is hard to imagine what it was like speaking the same language at the same time as someone like Shakespeare or Dickens. I mean, I like the books of Agatha Christie and of poor old Hemingway, probably the most famous and prestigious English-language "writers" whose lives overlapped mine (not the best, for the record, but in each case very good) , but it is hardly their fault that they were famous writers who were not divinely gifted.

    There are a few old celebrities, and some who are still not all that old - Phil Collins, Clarence Thomas, Olivia DeHavilland, Herman Wouk - whose grandparents were (like mine, almost) young happy people in Dickensian times. Many people famously do not respect Dickens - Waugh, Dearieme, Wodehouse: and even Mother Theresa never talked much about the Christmas Carol - but let's be honest, if we were alive back then and waited for every installment of every new Dickens novel to come out, fresh off the griddle, we would have been thrilled, and would have wondered - where does such inspiration come from? We are just a generation or two to late to know, maybe there are similar writers who will be well known years from now who will fill the bill. With divine help, natch.

  34. @njguy73
    If Diablo Cody is the Liz Phair of film...

    ...Juno is Exile in Guyville
    ...Young Adult is Whip-Smart
    ...United States of Tara is Whitechocolateggspace
    ...and Tully is that album with the "Why Can't I?" song

    “Why Can’t I” is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    • Replies: @MarcB.
    Her hit "Supernova" was pretty catchy, and in constant rotation in late 1994. I remembered it because I was seeing a taller, blonder version of her at that time who was also 3x as screwed up as her "Exiled in Guyville" persona. I was amused by an interview with her during the early years of Desert Storm, when she told a smitten rock journalist dweeb how hot military and other alpha guys were. The interviewer could not contain his disappointment over this revelation, emphasizing his terminal dweebiness.
    , @njguy73
    My post was strictly based on how critics view the works. I probably should have stated that.
    , @flyingtiger
    On her first album over, she was shown on her her knees about to give oral sex. I figured why she was so popular with the male music critics. Her music seemed average. She had that wholesome girl next door look; she easily could have been a playmate.
    Later when her musical career faded, she divorced and moved to SanDiego. In one interview, she talked about how she likes the Marines and she explains to her her child why there is a different man at breakfast each morning.
    , @James Kabala
    I always thought "Never Said Nothing" was a pretty good song. Apparently the rest of that album was over-the-top obscene, so I never sought it out to listen to.
  35. Sam says:
    @Anon7
    I’m hoping this isn’t one of those movies that assure young women that they can ride the carousel until they get kicked off before having kids, and that the only problem is feeling tired.

    Mother’s Age / Odds of Downs / Odds of chromosomal abnormality

    20 years old / 1 in 1923 / 1 in 526
    30 years old / 1 in 885 / 1 in 384
    40 years old / 1 in 109 / 1 in 63
    41 years old / 1 in 85 / 1 in 48
    42 years old / 1 in 67 / 1 in 39

    One could really produce a quite subversive film about a woman post-wall who finds out her baby might have som abnormality. That would allow a red pill moment where a doctor patiently explains the reality outlined in the post above. The film would be allowed to show this hormonal pregnan woman raging at sexist “society” for not educating women about this.(Of course we all know the real reason) To shore up the liberal credentials it could have a scene with the woman in dispair and considering abortion.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The film would be allowed to show this hormonal pregnan woman raging at sexist “society” for not educating women about this.
     
    And she would have a point.
  36. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alden
    Who gains 40 pounds when pregnant? Only in movies I guess.

    2 kinds of comedies I can’t stand and never watch. First is wedding preparation comedies. Second is getting pregnant being pregnant and having the baby comedies.

    Can’t figure out which is worse, the ones where the couple has to make an effort to get pregnant and the reluctant husband has to preform on order snicker snicker

    Then there are the ones where the baby is a Jewish boy and the million vulgar Bris jokes

    Then the diaper changing jokes like a 3 year old giggling about the baby going poopie.

    But the wedding comedies are the worst

    The 40 pounds wasn’t what Theron gained when actually pregnant, nor what any character in the movie says you should gain when pregnant. It’s simply what she gained to look right for the role. Theron seems like a typical rail-thin model type, so maybe 40 pounds isn’t crazy if she wants to look pregnant.

    Women who are underweight (meaning BMI under 18.5) until 2009 were recommended to gain 30 to 40 pounds by the Institute of Medicine, a quasi-governmental body that works with various governmental agencies on health standards. Currently the recommendation for underweight are 28 to 40 pounds, which tracks the World Health Organization’s recommendations.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Average weight for an American woman is around 165 pounds, so Theron would have to put on at least 40 to hit that.
  37. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    OT "I deserve to be here"

    some white girl at Yale called police on a black girl sleeping in the common room
    SJW rage
    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/05/08/black-student-reported-to-ypd-for-napping-in-dormitory-common-room/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/yale-student-black-police-white-sleep-common-room-lolade-siyonbola-a8344536.html?amp&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    The black woman had a huge chip on her shoulder, so I really, really want to hate her, but the white woman seems to be a head case in her own right. She has law and engineering degrees and is pursuing a philosophy Ph.D. What job is she pursuing, and how much are her student loans going to end up being? And is “she” a woman-born-woman or trans (engineering?)?

    This is a case where I really want a lot more facts. Where is the dormatory located? Is it a security building? What is the neighborhood like, crime, demographics? What is the previous history of these two?–a prior encounter was hinted at. Why was the woman sleeping there rather than in her room? Did the white woman know the black women and lie in the report to the police that she was an intruder? And why is the media not asking questions like this before running with the party line? And why is there not a third-party contrarian website asking and investigating questions like this to steal traffic from the normal aggregators by offering something unique?

    • Replies: @L Woods
    A female with a Yale PhD, even in the humanities and even in this very terrible academic job market, will have a very good shot at a tenure track position. And the degree is almost certainly fully funded.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Anon, she is looking for a job where she can meditate on whether you have a legal right to build what you want to build, the way you want to build it. There, that covers it.
  38. @Alden
    Who gains 40 pounds when pregnant? Only in movies I guess.

    2 kinds of comedies I can’t stand and never watch. First is wedding preparation comedies. Second is getting pregnant being pregnant and having the baby comedies.

    Can’t figure out which is worse, the ones where the couple has to make an effort to get pregnant and the reluctant husband has to preform on order snicker snicker

    Then there are the ones where the baby is a Jewish boy and the million vulgar Bris jokes

    Then the diaper changing jokes like a 3 year old giggling about the baby going poopie.

    But the wedding comedies are the worst

    Yeah, those baby comedies often have the “ha ha, look at the stupid new dad trying to change a diaper, getting pooped and peed on, etc…” joke that has been worn to death. In reality, new dads will find that changing a diaper is probably one of the easiest things they will have to do.

  39. @Anonymous
    OT, but funny:

    Man Allegedly Used Change Of Address Form To Move UPS Headquarters To His Apartment

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/05/10/dushaun-henderson-spruce_vert-dd3021d1c839b3095ebf7f8310dbd16444653ebd-s400-c85.jpg


    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/10/610102872/man-allegedly-used-change-of-address-form-to-move-ups-headquarters-to-his-apartm


    Disclaimer: As a former UPSer myself, I have no sympathy for UPS, but the fact that the even more stupid USPS would deliver a shit ton of mail marked UPS to a private apartment.......Anyone receiving that much mail to an apartment should be a huge red flag in and of itself, as well as any private residence receiving any mail addressed to a major corporation-and I know for a personal fact that the USPS knows who UPS are. They're like the Hell's Angels and the Pagan's that way. (The apostrophe in "Pagan's" is how they spell it. Don't ask why.)

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang? I’ve always wondered. I’ve been driving motorcycles since I was nine years old, but I’ve never once, to my knowledge, encountered a motorcycle gang – and I’ve lived all over the place, and in many places with tons of crime and seedy stuff. Oh, I expect I’ve encountered a member of a motorcycle gang and not known it – some cat at a bar with a hog out front was in the Hell’s Angels; some group riding together past me on the freeway were in a gang, or whatever. But where’s the crime? Where are the news reports about even the aftermath? When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days? A quick look into the Pagan’s unearths some kind of raid on a guy’s house for weapons the government didn’t want him to have (maybe he was a felon?) in 2009. That was almost ten years ago, and it doesn’t seem especially motorcyle-y, anyway. Are motorcycle gangs just more subtle now? Are the motorcycles no longer integral to their shenanigans? They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus? And if so, are they really a motorcycle gang? I mean, I bet lots of groups of drug-dealers or members of the Crips or MS-13 drive drugs around in so-called sport-utility vehicles or pickup trucks (they’re popular!), but we don’t speak about the the Crips as an “SUV Gang.” What gives? I realise these musings are inane, but your remarks genuinely prompted me to wonder, in a profound, Seinfeld-ian way: “Motorcycle gangs – what’s the deal?!” Does anyone know more about this topic?

    • Replies: @snorlax

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?
     
    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do
     
    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?
     
    That and they belong to a "motorcycle club" as a legal front entity. It's also part of the "uniform," same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they're genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I'm guessing there's also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don't do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.
    , @Some Economist
    A new episode on Hell’s Angels from the Myth of the 20th Century podcast: https://overcast.fm/+H3-qiwsCs
    , @Harry Baldwin
    A few years ago I read McMafia, an account of international organized crime. It described how the Hells Angels evolved from a rowdy biker gang to an organized crime organization heavily involved in drug trafficking. It's not in their interest to get into brawls and create a ruckus like they did in the 1960s and 1970s.

    As someone just mentioned, you pretty much have to have a criminal record to get into the Angels, plus there is a lengthy vetting period when you are a "prospect." During that period you will be called upon to do all sorts of things an undercover cop wouldn't do, which is one of the reasons the Hells Angels is extremely difficult to infiltrate.
  40. @Berty
    Why thank you for that brilliant insight, Mr. Old Boomer Guy.

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.

    Ladies shouldn’t swear.

  41. “How many children do you have?
    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?”

    I am in the exact demographic of this movie (actually, I and my wife are a bit older-but our contemporaries are literally living this story). Obviously, I don’t know the exact plot from the trailer (particular when I just watched it with the sound off-and skipped the boring parts), but the life issues and experiences in general are mine and my contemporaries. With one exception: I am the stay at home dad, and my wife is away at work. I’ve been a stay at home dad since the day my youngest was born (and for most of my oldest’s life). I interact with the women who are living the live that Therron is living, every day (at ballet classes, picking up kids after school, playdates, and on and on and on).

    Its really not that hard. Of course, there is nothing pleasant about diapers, and whining kids. And contrary what one commenter said: its hardest when they are young, and gets easier as they get old. In fact, the young kid’s life, for a parent, is a series of significant events in which life gets EASIER (ah, he can finally entertain himself for a few minutes. Ah, he can feed himself. Ah, toilet trained. Ah, he can get into the car by himself. Ah, he can buckle his own seatbelt. Ah, he can put his own shoes on. etc etc etc. Each milestone takes one more regular chore away from the parent). But you get used to it, and its just life. I’ve often compared changing diapers to cleaning oneself: neither are particularly pleasant. But you clean yourself every day-you do it so often, it is routine, subconscious, and not even significant. Diapers, after the 10th or 20th, really become the same thing-it takes a minute, and its over.

    In general though: the stay at home parent has the easier job (and I say that as the stay at home parent who does all the typical man tasks as well as the traditional stay at home parent tasks: I still mow the yard, maintain the garage, and do the bills, for instance). Stay at home mom’s are generally pretty happy and content with the role-they are, in general, not overwhelmed by it.

    The ones that are overwhelmed by it are people who tend to get overwhelmed anyway. In other words, the strength, or personality, of the individual parent dictates their happiness, or stress level, from having kids-the act of having kids does not. Most houses, for instance, don’t look like that messy house-they are cleaner. The ones that are as messy as the house in the movie are that way because the mother can’t handle the responsiblity of cleaning the house (and I have seen, and regularly see it).

    The one difficulty of being a stay at home parent (And this is particularly true of a stay at home dad) is social isolation-a lack of adult interaction. There is still, in every community in the country, a society of stay at home mothers (usually), living the same life that their grandmothers did in 1955. But instead of being neighbors with each other (when they could count on fellow travellers next door or just down the street), they are scattered, isolated, throughout the city-and meet each other waiting at swim lessons, at the park playground, and at the zoo. So that social group is still there-its just made up of isolated individuals having to seek each other out from across town rather than across the street. And since that social group is more spread out, it is inconvenient-and thus the general social isolation.

    If the old ethic still existed, in which women generally stayed at home with their kids (and most mothers were at home), women would have it made. In fact, I have often thought that if it were reversed-if the ethic was of dads being at home, and I was surrounded by my neighboring men and our kids all day, it would be a paradise. My wife and I both kind of suffer socially: she’s in a male dominated field, and I’m with my young kids all day. Neither of us have much in common with our contemporaries-I can’t, and have no interest in, talking about work with men, and she isn’t living the kid activity life like the women. But spending the day with your contemporaries, with frankly limited responsibilities (but general oversight duties and occasional crisis management), would really be nice-basically a relaxing Saturday every day.

    Women really did have it all in 1955.

    joe

    • Replies: @Rosie
    I agree with most of what you say here, except this:

    The ones that are as messy as the house in the movie are that way because the mother can’t handle the responsiblity of cleaning the house (and I have seen, and regularly see it).
     
    What often happens is that kids and husbands won't pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn't have time to clean. You can't vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she's out of time before it's time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done.
  42. Ron Livingston, not Mark Duplass. Mark Duplass is the brother.

  43. @Anonymous
    OT, but funny:

    Man Allegedly Used Change Of Address Form To Move UPS Headquarters To His Apartment

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/05/10/dushaun-henderson-spruce_vert-dd3021d1c839b3095ebf7f8310dbd16444653ebd-s400-c85.jpg


    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/10/610102872/man-allegedly-used-change-of-address-form-to-move-ups-headquarters-to-his-apartm


    Disclaimer: As a former UPSer myself, I have no sympathy for UPS, but the fact that the even more stupid USPS would deliver a shit ton of mail marked UPS to a private apartment.......Anyone receiving that much mail to an apartment should be a huge red flag in and of itself, as well as any private residence receiving any mail addressed to a major corporation-and I know for a personal fact that the USPS knows who UPS are. They're like the Hell's Angels and the Pagan's that way. (The apostrophe in "Pagan's" is how they spell it. Don't ask why.)

    They’re like the Hell’s Angels and the Pagan’s that way. (The apostrophe in “Pagan’s” is how they spell it. Don’t ask why.)

    And, ironically, “Hells Angels” doesn’t take an apostrophe. At least not the way they like it, and I wouldn’t argue grammar with a biker.

    Regarding the UPS story: hilarious. Black people come up with the craziest scams sometimes, gotta give them credit.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    HAMC is officially Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club, but the top rocker says HELLS ANGELS.

    A club website says "Missing apostrophe? Yes we know it is missing but it is you who miss it. We don't."

    So I suspect that the Pagan's put one in theirs as a deliberate provocation. Who knows?

    Probably a poor idea to argue about it or even ask them.
  44. @Anon
    The 40 pounds wasn't what Theron gained when actually pregnant, nor what any character in the movie says you should gain when pregnant. It's simply what she gained to look right for the role. Theron seems like a typical rail-thin model type, so maybe 40 pounds isn't crazy if she wants to look pregnant.

    Women who are underweight (meaning BMI under 18.5) until 2009 were recommended to gain 30 to 40 pounds by the Institute of Medicine, a quasi-governmental body that works with various governmental agencies on health standards. Currently the recommendation for underweight are 28 to 40 pounds, which tracks the World Health Organization's recommendations.

    Average weight for an American woman is around 165 pounds, so Theron would have to put on at least 40 to hit that.

  45. @J.Ross
    OT "I deserve to be here"

    some white girl at Yale called police on a black girl sleeping in the common room
    SJW rage
    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/05/08/black-student-reported-to-ypd-for-napping-in-dormitory-common-room/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/yale-student-black-police-white-sleep-common-room-lolade-siyonbola-a8344536.html?amp&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    We’re desperately overdue for a chimp out, maybe this could help act as a trigger. Related to this, Starbuck’s has announced that anyone who wants to, can use their bathrooms with no purchase necessary. It would be fun to see their urban locations turn into homeless shelters the way public libraries have.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    What we're overdue for is an Ubuntu overreaction in a district where the cops know the government has their back. I believe and hope we will remain overdue. All the disturbances of the late Obama era happened in places where the cops were corrupted or had been ordered to stand down. When you make Aunty Fa doff her mask, she becomes wonderfully peaceful.
  46. @Zeroh Tollrants
    Yes! I *hate* stories about women whining about all they have to suffer and give up by having children. I hate these women, I have no sympathy for them, and they are nothing but narcissistic, attention-seeking a&&holes.
    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life. I had my first one right after my 22 birthday. She's almost 30, has two kids in elementary school & is a dentist. She also didn't know she was supposed to be whiny and beg for attention over her great sacrifice, because we don't *do* that in my family.

    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life.

    Are you an opossum by any chance?

    Happy early Mother’s Day.

    • LOL: Harry Baldwin
  47. @Anonymous
    Haven't seen the movie, not likely to, but: if it's her third kid she should know what's involved and how much work it is. Besides, it's the first kid that is usually the big shock since half the work and two thirds the stress of new parenthood is from the lack of experience with infants. Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it's the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration. The infant just eats, shits and sleeps, and they are used to that.

    Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it’s the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration.

    This is true, but it doesn’t make much difference in the end. The point is that subsequent children are harder, because you are also dealing with the older ones.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Who generally are easier to deal with than a completely helpless and dependant infant/toddler, and who can help you take care of their younger siblings.
  48. @Tiny Duck
    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    @ tinydick-

    “Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman”
    .
    so-o-o-o, a feminist’s idea of a perfect man ? ? ?
    hee hee hee
    ho ho ho
    ha ha ha
    ak ak ak

  49. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    They have it all worked out. When you’re 15, you marry a dirty old man three times your age and start having babies after a brief honeymoon period.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Rosie is still riding the carousel...

    "You go, girl!"
    , @hujh
    I never understood the "dirty old man" insult. I suppose it's like calling someone a racist or a commie.

    On second thought it does actually mean something. It's a female form of shaming (men never use the term except as a compliment). Women use shame because nature denied them strength. And they're good at it.

    The shaming here is intended to keep men in line as slaves to their female owners rather than enjoying themselves for their own sake. Matters sex/brood-related have stronger valence than lesser concerns but these insults are tailored toward every sort of man who fails to play the part that women expect of him. Whether it's the deadbeat dad or the manchild non-dad there seems to be a female insult perfectly tailored to all those not laboring under the whip.

    Schoepenhauer (and Shakespeare and the holy bible) seem to have been on to something.

    Is there anything more pathetic than a man permanently attatched to a woman?

    Myself? Perhaps.

    I have no dependents and no white-whiskered woman to call me own but I do love children and f***ing too. Lacking the marital albatross I miss out on those.

    As I see from my friends and family, fatherhood is a joy. Not just when some survey tester asks you if you have children and then "over all how satisfied are you with your life", but daily. What man doesn't love the responsibility of putting food on his family and of looking after those food behatted little ones as they be-hat each other with red spaghetti sauce. Fatherhood is just a load of fun.

    And the daily boning with ready, willing and able still-hot and entrancing wives is of course known to all.

    Plus, I will die alone. I have never seen any man happier to die than a married one. Besides, no month of one's life is more important than the final one.

    Not to mention the fact that I am all alone. How I long for those days when I wasn't alone! Never free to come and do and say and be as I will without answering to anyone! How I long for those meaningful and interesting conversations, the freedom that comes from having a veto over my plans and the pleasantness of having another person always around.

    And the undertow of meaning that can only be provided in knowing that you are of service to others (women or children or kings or gods) is as denied me as the knowledge that some diluted frankenstein version of my superific genes will continue to exist after...HA HA! Sorry, I can't keep a straight face anymore. :)

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.

    Admit however your jealousy.

    Escaping the trap evolution set for us all (man and spider alike) is almost always wise for women too. Motherhood, both with small children and adult ones is usually less satisfying than advertised.

    And, unlike everyone here save the ghost of Henry Harpending, I can speak to the lives of men and women in non-western societies as well. In the middle east anyway. Millionaire marrieds in Dubai as much as mud-dwelling Arabs on the Syrian border are pretty much in agreement that marriage sucks and that parenthood is a chore.

    Happy oh so happy mothers day m'ladies!

  50. Malaysia is the most racist country in the World but they get away without criticism. The actions taken reduce comparative advantage rather than increase it.

  51. @Sam
    One could really produce a quite subversive film about a woman post-wall who finds out her baby might have som abnormality. That would allow a red pill moment where a doctor patiently explains the reality outlined in the post above. The film would be allowed to show this hormonal pregnan woman raging at sexist “society” for not educating women about this.(Of course we all know the real reason) To shore up the liberal credentials it could have a scene with the woman in dispair and considering abortion.

    The film would be allowed to show this hormonal pregnan woman raging at sexist “society” for not educating women about this.

    And she would have a point.

  52. @Anonymous
    Haven't seen the movie, not likely to, but: if it's her third kid she should know what's involved and how much work it is. Besides, it's the first kid that is usually the big shock since half the work and two thirds the stress of new parenthood is from the lack of experience with infants. Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it's the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration. The infant just eats, shits and sleeps, and they are used to that.

    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    I read a piece in the business press in the past few months, perhaps the WSJ, in which the author said being the fourth of seven left him with the duty of watching the younger ones while the elder sibs got to do what they wanted. Anyone recognize this article?

    Paul Cowsill, also the fourth of seven, said exactly the same thing in the documentary Family Band.

    My uncle was also 4/7, with a huge gap between him and the next (it was the Depression, and he had to travel for masonry work; Fred Trump wasn’t hiring yet.) I’ll have to ask my cousins about this.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

     

    This is what I found as well historically(and in my immediate family: my wife, the youngest of 9 children, said that her siblings raised her). However, it should be added that historically the expanded(and immediate) family assisted even from the first, so the overall burden of work was already spread out.

    Large families do create some unusual attitudes in my experience, including the very unmodern idea that "losing" a few kids to misparenting or God's will is acceptable. Despite what some here seem to believe, crowding doesn't seem to be what prevents children(the amount of crowding in Quebecois rural families must be seen to be believed, with three generations under one roof at times); it really is the combination of what we call modernity which is acid to TFR.
    , @AndrewR
    I don't really understand that. All else being equal, I would rather have my eldest kids take care of the youngest ones than have my middle kids do it. What "chores" require more maturity than taking care of a young child requires? I'd much rather have my ten year old do the laundry than watch my baby.
    , @Rosie

    Ten kids are easier than two.
     
    My impression from observing other families as well as my own, is that it stops getting harder with each child after four, give or take one depending on spacing.

    Of course, having more children does mean it will take that much longer before things get appreciably easier, but the tradeoff is a great deal of fun and laughter, which makes it all well worth it.

  53. Tulley, Schmully. What’s your take on the Players, first day, Steve? Ever play Sawgrass?

  54. @Anonymous
    OT, but funny:

    Man Allegedly Used Change Of Address Form To Move UPS Headquarters To His Apartment

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/05/10/dushaun-henderson-spruce_vert-dd3021d1c839b3095ebf7f8310dbd16444653ebd-s400-c85.jpg


    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/10/610102872/man-allegedly-used-change-of-address-form-to-move-ups-headquarters-to-his-apartm


    Disclaimer: As a former UPSer myself, I have no sympathy for UPS, but the fact that the even more stupid USPS would deliver a shit ton of mail marked UPS to a private apartment.......Anyone receiving that much mail to an apartment should be a huge red flag in and of itself, as well as any private residence receiving any mail addressed to a major corporation-and I know for a personal fact that the USPS knows who UPS are. They're like the Hell's Angels and the Pagan's that way. (The apostrophe in "Pagan's" is how they spell it. Don't ask why.)

    Last time I relocated I used the USPS change of address function but have since realized they sell that data to advertisers who now bombard my mailbox with junk.

    Regarding the racism incident about a black girl sleeping in a dorm area. This follows the same old pattern : empowered woman calls the authorities over a situation where a man would have politely and quietly handled it and now it’s another horror story about systemic racism in America. It’s about women calling the police. I posted this observation on Slate and got banned for it.

  55. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    “When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.”

    There’s an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
    You can’t blame men for women’s choices. Most women today prefer to have a “career” and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
    Disclaimer: I’m neither a virgin nor 90 years old.

    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @Rosie

    There’s an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
     
    And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men.

    There is no way to rehabilitate and revive the old double standards.

    You can’t blame men for women’s choices. Most women today prefer to have a “career” and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
     
    One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the "best years of their lives."
  56. @Steve Sailer
    It's not really a horror plot twist.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    I hope you don’t mean deus (or dea) ex machina.

  57. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    If you mean “young men,” then I pretty much agree, although men, having a longer fertility window can do just fine marrying and starting a family between 25 and 30.

    If you give a woman a family wage job in her 20s, she will be less likely to have children and more likely to blow her extra money on handbags, going out with her girlfriends, etc.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    Agreed.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    As noted above, things will work fine if men are eager to marry between 25 and 30. But even so, I think you would be surprised at the percentage of men in their 20s who would be happy to get married.

    People have a tendency to focus on the small percentage of men who have the looks and charisma to jump from girl to girl and have no interest in settling down. They conclude that men are commitment-phobic, but this is only a small percentage of men.

    • Agree: BB753
  58. @J.Ross
    OT "I deserve to be here"

    some white girl at Yale called police on a black girl sleeping in the common room
    SJW rage
    https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/05/08/black-student-reported-to-ypd-for-napping-in-dormitory-common-room/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/yale-student-black-police-white-sleep-common-room-lolade-siyonbola-a8344536.html?amp&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    I sympathized with the black girl when I saw the video, but then I saw her Facebook post and it was “wahhh being black in America is so awful but we shall overcome.”

    So many black people act like only black people have to put up with rude people, or deal with cops. If this country’s racial divide is remotely fixable, it will require blacks to be much more judicious in their accusations of racism. They need to understand that white people go through 95% of the shit they do: dealing with rude people, suspicious people, etc. Twice I have had the cops called on me while new to a neighborhood because the neighbors didn’t recognize me, and I’m white as they come.

  59. 1. All these Diablo Cody fanboys and no one mentions Jennifer’s Body (2009)? Am I the only one who liked that movie?
    .
    .
    ***crickets***
    .
    .
    Am I the only one who saw that movie?
    .
    .
    .
    Shut up.

    2.

    Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role…..

    The last time she did that, she won an Oscar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

    • Replies: @Simonini
    I'm also a big fan of Jennifer's Body, but it did poorly because horror movies are mostly consumed by a niche and shrinking audience which doesn't overlap much with the people who liked Juno. Critics also hate Megan Fox.
    , @Seth Largo
    Any i-Steve themes in Jennifer's Body? Care to give a short review? I've been wanting to watch it but assumed it was Cody's throwaway, post-Juno, I-need-money-to-make-my-own-film film.
    , @flyingtiger
    I loved this movie! I believe the reason that it failed was because it mocked The Goth kids. Goths are avid film viewers. Since this mocked them, they bad mouthed it and this discouraged viewers.
    The lesson here for all you moviemakers is to be nice to the Goths, and they will support you.
  60. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    If you like children then don’t put it off until the last moment.

    Depending on how old her other kids are, she probably didn’t put it off until the last moment. This isn’t her first child. In fact, was she even trying for a third child or is this just a happy accident?

    My parents had me when Mom was in her early 40s (Dad in his mid 40s). Mom had 3 kids when she was in her 20s.

    There probably should be a distinction between “waited until she was older to have kids” and “kept having kids after she got older.”

  61. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    I guess you had an axe (or two) to grind.

    As it turns out, my wife and I have been married for thirty years, and have two wonderful children now in their mid-twenties.

    You seem to be quite bitter about the world that the feminists and the globalists have made, a world in which men can’t find jobs at the high end (legal immigration of tech workers from Asia), can’t find jobs at the low end (too much illegal immigration) and can’t find jobs in the middle (factories moved out of the country). And are denied opportunities and paychecks at all levels by women who double the size of the workforce, halve the size of wages and demand that men bow down before them, especially the white men who are after all the worst humans in history. No wonder they don’t want to take the enormous risk of having a family.

    As far as black and Hispanic women having babies is concerned, I don’t think I mentioned that, but as long as you brought it up, I think that women do NOT have the right to the Life of Julia in which they get to bang whoever they want and have children that they expect me and the rest of us to pay for, at any age. You can add white and Asian women to that list while you’re at it.

    Looks like we all have axes to grind.

  62. @njguy73
    If Diablo Cody is the Liz Phair of film...

    ...Juno is Exile in Guyville
    ...Young Adult is Whip-Smart
    ...United States of Tara is Whitechocolateggspace
    ...and Tully is that album with the "Why Can't I?" song

    Exile in Guyville was the 90’s album of the decade. Juno was an embarrassment. I don’t see the correlation.

    • Replies: @njguy73

    Exile in Guyville was the 90’s album of the decade. Juno was an embarrassment. I don’t see the correlation.
     
    Juno = Exile in Guyville = the debut that critics hailed as the dawning of a brilliant career
  63. @J.Ross
    Diablo Cody was a successful blogger during a wierd period in the normalization of porn and the rise of new media, who wrote about being a literate stripper, and did some political material. She could never touch Belle du Jour on her best day.

    Bunuel is a great filmmaker, but I’ve never gotten Belle du Jour’s appeal, particularly that awful clam of an ending.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    ... I was actually talking about the blogger, who is an objectively better writer than Cody. But Catherine Deneuve walking through a dark hallway in black mesh on her way to pretend to be dead is one of the all-time great images of cinema.
    , @Alden
    Belle was just respectable porn.

    It’s a common porn genre, the prostitute who loves her work. Wasn’t Fanny Hill about a proatitute who enjoyed her work? Didn’t the ancient Romans claim that some of the Roman empresses spent the night in brothels taking on all comers for free?

    The ending was just to intellectualize porn; was it a fantasy? Do women really want gangsters instead of nice Drs?

    Did you see Christiania? Denueve and her pervert guardian? Too bad Denueve got hooked up with Buenuel. Can’t stand his pervy nasty movies.
  64. @Tiny Duck
    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    sh#t incels say. or is it sh#t cucks say.

  65. @Anon
    The black woman had a huge chip on her shoulder, so I really, really want to hate her, but the white woman seems to be a head case in her own right. She has law and engineering degrees and is pursuing a philosophy Ph.D. What job is she pursuing, and how much are her student loans going to end up being? And is "she" a woman-born-woman or trans (engineering?)?

    This is a case where I really want a lot more facts. Where is the dormatory located? Is it a security building? What is the neighborhood like, crime, demographics? What is the previous history of these two?--a prior encounter was hinted at. Why was the woman sleeping there rather than in her room? Did the white woman know the black women and lie in the report to the police that she was an intruder? And why is the media not asking questions like this before running with the party line? And why is there not a third-party contrarian website asking and investigating questions like this to steal traffic from the normal aggregators by offering something unique?

    A female with a Yale PhD, even in the humanities and even in this very terrible academic job market, will have a very good shot at a tenure track position. And the degree is almost certainly fully funded.

  66. The Roissyesque aspect of that dialogue may not be a coincidence. Cody’s combination of libertine id and conservative wisdom is pretty similar to Roissy’s, but from the female perspective.

    I don’t know about Cody, but Roissy/CH (I guess the quote refers to c*ck carousel) is a sorry oracle for life. His world-view is simplistic social Darwinianism with a few Freudian ideas thrown in & all cooked in a goulash of desperation- get laid, try to procreate & then die. That’s whole life.

    He tries to be a prophet to WNs, but he fails: who, on earth, would care for such a bleak & meaningless vision of life? All revolutions, all subversive ideas need to possess implicit explosive energy & semi-utopian hope. And all evolutionists sadly miss this crucial thing. Who cares for mere survival of species….

    • Replies: @JonE2Baad
    I suspect the CH site is just another intelligence operation with its sole purpose being to collect data on its site visitors; indistinguishable tracking cookies, scripts, etc., esp. on the stupid suckers that post on it(do you really believe that "Roissy" could actually write all that stuff and still have time to sleep, eat, shit, punch the clock, AND leave his keyboard to go out and pick up women? Come on, guys-wake up! My bet is that there's a whole crew of "Roissys" manning CH-24/7).

    Want a comparable example in history? Read about "Operation Trust"-the GPU org. that lured British spy Sidney Reilly back to Russia in the 1920s.(from Wikipedia) :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trust

  67. WHITE WOMEN

    Charlize Theron is a White foreigner woman of glacial beauty and willowy stature.

    The Democrat Party is doing everything it can to grab the White Woman vote in the United States.

    The New York Times just did a story in this morning’s paper about White women pushing for a Democrat Party victory in the upcoming mid-term elections.

    Trumpy won the White women battle against baby boomer globalizer Hillary Clinton. Trumpy has been weak and cowardly on immigration policy. I’ll give Trumpy credit for his actions on certain elements of trade and foreign policy. Trumpy must do more to kill NAFTA and the European Union and the European Central Bank.

    White women voters want strong leadership that will fight for them and their families. White women voters want Trumpy to put the interests of American citizens ahead of the interests of foreigners. Trumpy must make it clear that White women are under attack from open borders mass immigration and multicultural mayhem.

    It is well known in political circles that the Penn boys like them some willowy, beautiful dork type women. Sean Penn was making the beast with two backs with Theron. Penn’s brother is married to willowy, beautiful dork type White woman Amee Mann. We all love Amee Mann for being a willowy, beautiful dork type female, don’t we?

    Sean Penn made the unwise choice to ditch his guns as a condition of enjoying the willowy beauty of Theron. For all Sean Penn’s attempts to act like a tough guy, that seems like a pussy move to give up your guns because some beautiful broad makes it a condition of whoopee fun.

    To sum up, White women want some balls and heart, and White women voters might sit out the mid-terms or vote for the Democrat Party if they see more weak crybaby nonsense from Trumpy and the GOP on immigration.

    Charlize Theron is just as ungrateful as any random Jew when it comes to being thankful for being allowed to live in a nation started and formed by British Protestants. Theron the South African was making squawks about how there is so much “racism” in the United States. A smart White man would win over over plenty of White native-born women voters by calling out Theron on her hypocrisy. Invite Theron to go back to Africa to escape the “racism.” Do it gently, you awkward boob candidates!

    • Replies: @Rosie

    To sum up, White women want some balls and heart, and White women voters might sit out the mid-terms or vote for the Democrat Party if they see more weak crybaby nonsense from Trumpy and the GOP on immigration.
     
    You'd better believe it. We voted for Trump on the strength of promises he made to our husbands, sons, and brothers regarding trade and immigration. I fear his failure to follow through will cost him dearly with us.
  68. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    Is there any reason why a white woman cannot also live on welfare?

    • Replies: @Alden
    Most White women on welfare had their kids in their 20s and get off welfare after a few years.

    But to the 9o year old male virgins endlessly ranting that White women should have babies at 2o, somebody has to support those babies and their mothers, either a husband, welfare or even a job “ stolen” from a man.

    Some of these guys don’t seem to know that it takes a man and a woman to conceive a child. Instead of endless
    “Women should have children”. How about the realistic men and women should have children.
  69. I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream. On the other hand, with success like this, failure looks pretty good. Every movement and enterprise undergoes the same cycle of ascent and demise, because white men no longer have it in them to set boundaries or say no to women when they inevitably arrive to work their uniquely ruinous magic. It reminds me of an aircraft stall cycle with a panicked pilot trying to pull out of it by pulling up: false recovery, doomed descent, and so on straight into the ground.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Alden's been around for years, Rosie is new.

    I don't think they're much more trolls than the rest of us-- "crank" would be a charitable description for the most part.
    , @27 year old

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.
     
    Nah, mainstream will be when we have hot groupies that nod along with whatever we say regardless of how insane it is. Then when /our guys/ who have the looks and personality of Ted Cruz start having junior producer thots from the daily shoah waiting for them in their AmRen hotel rooms, then we'll really know #wedidit fam.

    I don't think there's an influx, just one or two that post frequently and combatively. Rosie isn't really a threat the way that you're talking about women ruining things, she's just kind of a pain in the ass who likes to argue.
    , @Rosie

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.
     
    On what grounds do you call us "trolls"? Is there some reason other than that we disagree with you?
    , @Rosie
    L Woods,

    You clearly think women have no legitimate right to participate in this forum. Let's make a deal, you MGTOWs get out of the pro-White movement and go your own way already, and White women will gladly leave you to it.

    Manosphere types have been trying to advance the idea that there is such a thing as men's interests, and that these are identical with White interests, and this is untrue and very damaging to our already-divided people.

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.
  70. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    Not one thing in your reply addresses the actual biological issues.

    Your rambles are also half-nonsense which has been addressed by reactionaries since the 1920s, but for what it is worth, consider the groups which do in fact manage large families: its almost always highly religious groups(Mormons being the prime example), which suggests that the throttling has only a little to do with economics.

    A specific area of my study, Catholic French Canada, was averaging between 4-8 TFR before the Quiet Revolution as well and again, it had little to do with expenditures as we understand it: average income would seem appalling low by today’s standards, families lived together(even grandparents), and a statistically significant percentage of the people went into non-income generating religious studies(3% of women were nuns or novices to nuns). And yet, 4-8 TFR.

    And for what it is worth, my wife was 19 when I married her and I certainly wasn’t 20-22.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Re: French-Canadians, my grandmother was one of 11 children, her mother and father were one of 12 and 10, respectively, while my grandfather (born in the US) was one of 8 children, and his parents were both one of 7. The high fertility rate was due to the ban on birth control.
    , @James Kabala
    Doesn't this kind of conflict with the original point about Down's syndrome? Kind Number 8 at age 40 would be just as much at risk for Down's as Kid Number 1 at that age, right? (See Trig Palin for an obvious example.)
  71. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    This story is about a woman who was a typical slut for many years before settling down with a guy who would actually marry her. What do you think “I rode every horse on the carousel.” means? It’s unsurprisingly a big shock to the system when you go a couple of decades being a self-centered ho and then try to pivot to wife and mother. The guy she married is probably the guy she was too good for up until her biological clock forced her to grow up. He was probably never a player and adjusting to family life wasn’t as difficult for him.

  72. OFF TOPIC

    Did Professor Kevin MacDonald just call European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker an ASSHOLE?

    Things are heating up folks!

    WOW — War On Whitey

    The War On Whitey is pissing off the Scottish guy from the Midwest.

    I wonder if a boozy Nigel Farage ever called EU boozehound bureaucrat Juncker an asshole?

  73. Expected a movie about Cicero. Disappointed.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Underrated. I kek'd.
    , @Anonymous
    I did Ctrl-F "Cicero" and you won. Thanks!
  74. @Reg Cæsar
    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    I read a piece in the business press in the past few months, perhaps the WSJ, in which the author said being the fourth of seven left him with the duty of watching the younger ones while the elder sibs got to do what they wanted. Anyone recognize this article?

    Paul Cowsill, also the fourth of seven, said exactly the same thing in the documentary Family Band.

    My uncle was also 4/7, with a huge gap between him and the next (it was the Depression, and he had to travel for masonry work; Fred Trump wasn't hiring yet.) I'll have to ask my cousins about this.

    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    This is what I found as well historically(and in my immediate family: my wife, the youngest of 9 children, said that her siblings raised her). However, it should be added that historically the expanded(and immediate) family assisted even from the first, so the overall burden of work was already spread out.

    Large families do create some unusual attitudes in my experience, including the very unmodern idea that “losing” a few kids to misparenting or God’s will is acceptable. Despite what some here seem to believe, crowding doesn’t seem to be what prevents children(the amount of crowding in Quebecois rural families must be seen to be believed, with three generations under one roof at times); it really is the combination of what we call modernity which is acid to TFR.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Three generations under one roof isn't really that remarkable. I've known multiple people who have lived that, including my father during his adolescence. Did you mean four generations?
    , @Alden
    This is just anecdotal, but I’ve found that older children of big families who had to do most of the housework ended up deeply resenting the parents and leaving home as soon as possible.
  75. @Gunnar von Cowtown
    1. All these Diablo Cody fanboys and no one mentions Jennifer's Body (2009)? Am I the only one who liked that movie?
    .
    .
    ***crickets***
    .
    .
    Am I the only one who saw that movie?
    .
    .
    .
    Shut up.

    2.

    Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role.....
     
    The last time she did that, she won an Oscar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

    I’m also a big fan of Jennifer’s Body, but it did poorly because horror movies are mostly consumed by a niche and shrinking audience which doesn’t overlap much with the people who liked Juno. Critics also hate Megan Fox.

  76. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    FWIW I am a man and I was married at age 26. There is a perception that all men want to screw around, have casual sex, and party in their 20s and 30s, but the majority of men don’t even have that option since they are not in the top 10-20% of looks/money/status.

    There are lots of men between the ages of 25 and 30 who would be happy to marry a girl who is roughly their age; childless; not obese; and looking to settle down. Unfortunately there are not a lot of women who meet these criteria these days.

    • Replies: @Joe862
    I think you are very right about this. Women are the ones who have all the power when they're in their twenties. They don't want to marry until that power is gone. They want to screw around as long as possible and then marry some stable guy for kids and family. This has been going on for a long time and a lot of young men have realized that they have no chance as all the women go for 20% of men while the rest get little to nothing. Young men in many cases recognize that the payoff for being responsible and working hard isn't until they're in their mid to late thirties. This is so far off that it isn't a motivator and many of them haven't put the effort into establishing themselves with education and careers.
  77. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    The nuclear family is becoming a relic of the 20th century.

    As the wage to cost-of-living ratio decreases, people will be living in multigenerational households more, with extended kin close by. This is conducive to higher birth rates. The “we want a big house in the suburbs with a big lawn that dad has to mow every week and two cars to chauffeur our 1.8 kids around, living hundreds if not thousands of miles from most of our kin” thing is becoming an archaic model for which future generations will hold us in contempt.

  78. @Daniel Chieh

    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

     

    This is what I found as well historically(and in my immediate family: my wife, the youngest of 9 children, said that her siblings raised her). However, it should be added that historically the expanded(and immediate) family assisted even from the first, so the overall burden of work was already spread out.

    Large families do create some unusual attitudes in my experience, including the very unmodern idea that "losing" a few kids to misparenting or God's will is acceptable. Despite what some here seem to believe, crowding doesn't seem to be what prevents children(the amount of crowding in Quebecois rural families must be seen to be believed, with three generations under one roof at times); it really is the combination of what we call modernity which is acid to TFR.

    Three generations under one roof isn’t really that remarkable. I’ve known multiple people who have lived that, including my father during his adolescence. Did you mean four generations?

  79. @Rosie

    Everyone I know with a third ( or more) kid says that the new baby is the least work of all the kids: it’s the older ones that take up the time and cause the frustration.
     
    This is true, but it doesn't make much difference in the end. The point is that subsequent children are harder, because you are also dealing with the older ones.

    Who generally are easier to deal with than a completely helpless and dependant infant/toddler, and who can help you take care of their younger siblings.

  80. @Reg Cæsar
    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    I read a piece in the business press in the past few months, perhaps the WSJ, in which the author said being the fourth of seven left him with the duty of watching the younger ones while the elder sibs got to do what they wanted. Anyone recognize this article?

    Paul Cowsill, also the fourth of seven, said exactly the same thing in the documentary Family Band.

    My uncle was also 4/7, with a huge gap between him and the next (it was the Depression, and he had to travel for masonry work; Fred Trump wasn't hiring yet.) I'll have to ask my cousins about this.

    I don’t really understand that. All else being equal, I would rather have my eldest kids take care of the youngest ones than have my middle kids do it. What “chores” require more maturity than taking care of a young child requires? I’d much rather have my ten year old do the laundry than watch my baby.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    I work with a woman in her late 30's who has six children, four older ones including two in their teens and a set of 3-year-old twins (I believe from a second marriage). We were talking about child care and I asked if the teens help out with the twins. She said they do from time to time but she doesn't think it's fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They're at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.
  81. @J.Ross
    Diablo Cody was a successful blogger during a wierd period in the normalization of porn and the rise of new media, who wrote about being a literate stripper, and did some political material. She could never touch Belle du Jour on her best day.

    Agreed. Cody is and was a nasty talentless slob.

    Also, other than Adam Sandler’s”Funny People” it is 1 of 2 films I have ever walked out on…..and w FP….they are the two worst films ever made….

  82. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    some of us started in our twenties and continuously had children through our early forties. It’s natural and what our foremothers always did till the Boomers screwed everything up.

  83. @Rosie

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.
     
    They have it all worked out. When you're 15, you marry a dirty old man three times your age and start having babies after a brief honeymoon period.

    Rosie is still riding the carousel…

    “You go, girl!”

  84. @Daniel Chieh
    Not one thing in your reply addresses the actual biological issues.

    Your rambles are also half-nonsense which has been addressed by reactionaries since the 1920s, but for what it is worth, consider the groups which do in fact manage large families: its almost always highly religious groups(Mormons being the prime example), which suggests that the throttling has only a little to do with economics.

    A specific area of my study, Catholic French Canada, was averaging between 4-8 TFR before the Quiet Revolution as well and again, it had little to do with expenditures as we understand it: average income would seem appalling low by today's standards, families lived together(even grandparents), and a statistically significant percentage of the people went into non-income generating religious studies(3% of women were nuns or novices to nuns). And yet, 4-8 TFR.

    And for what it is worth, my wife was 19 when I married her and I certainly wasn't 20-22.

    Re: French-Canadians, my grandmother was one of 11 children, her mother and father were one of 12 and 10, respectively, while my grandfather (born in the US) was one of 8 children, and his parents were both one of 7. The high fertility rate was due to the ban on birth control.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Part of it, potentially, but it plummeted to 1.4 after the Quiet Revolution and incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it. Birth control alone cannot explain the divergence(other countries have attempted birth control bans but it does not reverse TFR to that extent).
    , @Rosie
    I would add that secularism tends to prevent couples from having more than two children, while economics prevents them from having even one or two.
  85. @Dave Pinsen
    "Why Can't I" is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    https://youtu.be/f1MVkrk68Jg

    Her hit “Supernova” was pretty catchy, and in constant rotation in late 1994. I remembered it because I was seeing a taller, blonder version of her at that time who was also 3x as screwed up as her “Exiled in Guyville” persona. I was amused by an interview with her during the early years of Desert Storm, when she told a smitten rock journalist dweeb how hot military and other alpha guys were. The interviewer could not contain his disappointment over this revelation, emphasizing his terminal dweebiness.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Just played the video. Meh.

    Liz Phair complained in a recent NYT article about how the label execs who demand she and other female talent "be hotter", but I'm starting to think if Liz looked like the fat girl that got kicked out of Sugarland, she would have never become a big deal.
  86. @snorlax
    Re: French-Canadians, my grandmother was one of 11 children, her mother and father were one of 12 and 10, respectively, while my grandfather (born in the US) was one of 8 children, and his parents were both one of 7. The high fertility rate was due to the ban on birth control.

    Part of it, potentially, but it plummeted to 1.4 after the Quiet Revolution and incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it. Birth control alone cannot explain the divergence(other countries have attempted birth control bans but it does not reverse TFR to that extent).

    • Replies: @Rosie
    Never forget to look at the data.

    https://qz.com/1125805/the-reason-the-richest-women-in-the-us-are-the-ones-having-the-most-kids/
    , @Lot
    "incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it"

    Then they should be even higher. If you have 4 kids under 18 in your household, no tax on any income below $250,000. That's worth more like $50,000 compared to current policy.
    , @Alden
    After WW2 Western European socialist governments instituted child benefit, what we call child welfare for everyone.

    There were 3 objectives

    1. Get married women out of the low level workplace so there would be full employment for working class men. 2

    2This would prevent the working class men from going communist

    3 keep working class wages low while increasing working class family incomes via the child benefit.

    4 replace the population losses caused by low birth rates during the depression and losses during the war.

    It didn’t work. Middle and upper class economic conservatives huffed and puffed that it would only encourage the lower classes to have lots of children to get the benefit. Lifestyle conservatives though it would encourage big happy families

    Despite all the child benefit the birth rate for the natives went down every decade.

    The only people taking advantage seem to be Muslims and Africans in Britain.
  87. @snorlax
    Re: French-Canadians, my grandmother was one of 11 children, her mother and father were one of 12 and 10, respectively, while my grandfather (born in the US) was one of 8 children, and his parents were both one of 7. The high fertility rate was due to the ban on birth control.

    I would add that secularism tends to prevent couples from having more than two children, while economics prevents them from having even one or two.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Evidently not in French Canada or much of the Muslim world.
  88. Daniel Chieh wrote that “the throttling has only a little to do with economics.”
    That is sophistry. It has to do with changes that are constitutive to modern economies, even if they are not themselves economic in nature.

    I also know of a Japanese town whose mayor thought that Japanese fertility was too low and decided to try to do something about it. The result: a doubling of the local birth rate – entirely achieved via mundane practical measures like making daycare easily available. And this is not the only piece of evidence that economic concepts and practices do indeed seem to be determinative of demographic outcomes. The developments during the transformation of the former Warsaw Pact countries point in the same direction (and also fully explain many of the policy choices Orban, Kaczynski et al. have opted for).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-fertility-crisis-2017-4

    If it was easily replicable, it would have been done elsewhere. The fertility in Nagicho has fallen below replacement since then, and it was already a highly religious, fairly un-urbanized and relatively rural region(and the effort there included agribusiness promotion). Japanese TFR is highest in...not in Japan, but Okinawa, where the GDP/capita is nearly half of that of Tokyo and makes it one of the poorest regions in Japan.

  89. Lot says:

    Good week for Israel:

    – Obama’s Iran deal killed
    – Jerusalem US Embassy begins being staffed
    – Russia “u-turns” on selling its modern SAMS to Syria
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia/russia-after-netanyahu-visit-backs-off-syria-s-300-missile-supplies-idUSKBN1IC0SW

    – Iran’s forces smashed in Syria, not a single Israeli casualty
    – House GOP surging in the polls, gets $30 million boost from Uncle Shel.
    – Gina looks like she’ll be confirmed for the CIA

  90. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    Black teen birth rate is down about 85% from 80s peak if I remember right. Lead removal and welfare reform worked.

  91. Off topic
    I am actually surprised and I think this is risky.

    Starbucks bathrooms are now open to anyone who wants to use them, whether they’re a paying customer or not.

    • Replies: @donut
    Can I shit on the floor ?
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    Who wants to sit down to a coffee and scone in the anteroom of a public lavatory?
    , @Brutusale
    They always have been, excepting the ones in major cities. For example, the one in Portland, ME on Commercial St. has a lock but the one 3 blocks away on Fore St. doesn't. Every one I've been to in Boston are locked.

    The 3 suburban locations I frequent don't.

    I totally pissed off one of my lunatic aldermen when I asked him, given the number of times he wanders in to Starbucks looking for people to shake hands and ends up taking a trip to the bathroom, if he ever took a dump at home!
  92. @Rosie
    I would add that secularism tends to prevent couples from having more than two children, while economics prevents them from having even one or two.

    Evidently not in French Canada or much of the Muslim world.

  93. @Reg Cæsar
    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

    I read a piece in the business press in the past few months, perhaps the WSJ, in which the author said being the fourth of seven left him with the duty of watching the younger ones while the elder sibs got to do what they wanted. Anyone recognize this article?

    Paul Cowsill, also the fourth of seven, said exactly the same thing in the documentary Family Band.

    My uncle was also 4/7, with a huge gap between him and the next (it was the Depression, and he had to travel for masonry work; Fred Trump wasn't hiring yet.) I'll have to ask my cousins about this.

    Ten kids are easier than two.

    My impression from observing other families as well as my own, is that it stops getting harder with each child after four, give or take one depending on spacing.

    Of course, having more children does mean it will take that much longer before things get appreciably easier, but the tradeoff is a great deal of fun and laughter, which makes it all well worth it.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Of course, having more children does mean it will take that much longer before things get appreciably easier, but the tradeoff is a great deal of fun and laughter, which makes it all well worth it.
     
    Another important consideration: There is comfort in knowing that your children will have each other when you are gone.

    I would predict that children from small families are more likely to become wealthy, but also more likely to fall into deep poverty. I was unable to find any data after a quick google search. Of course, you'd have to control for ethnicity.

  94. @Daniel Chieh
    Part of it, potentially, but it plummeted to 1.4 after the Quiet Revolution and incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it. Birth control alone cannot explain the divergence(other countries have attempted birth control bans but it does not reverse TFR to that extent).
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    "Data" and "Quartz."

    https://qz.com/880222/how-many-people-in-the-us-identify-as-transgender/

    As noted, reactionaries have been studying this for a heck of a longer and of course, the well-known fecundity of religious families quite independent of economics(and the inelasticity of TFR and especially younger marriage for women to economic incentives worldwide) all contribute a much more meaningful analysis than than an infamously well-known hard-left webzine.

    , @Brutusale
    C'mon sweetie, you know better than that.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/
  95. @Rosie

    Ten kids are easier than two.
     
    My impression from observing other families as well as my own, is that it stops getting harder with each child after four, give or take one depending on spacing.

    Of course, having more children does mean it will take that much longer before things get appreciably easier, but the tradeoff is a great deal of fun and laughter, which makes it all well worth it.

    Of course, having more children does mean it will take that much longer before things get appreciably easier, but the tradeoff is a great deal of fun and laughter, which makes it all well worth it.

    Another important consideration: There is comfort in knowing that your children will have each other when you are gone.

    I would predict that children from small families are more likely to become wealthy, but also more likely to fall into deep poverty. I was unable to find any data after a quick google search. Of course, you’d have to control for ethnicity.

  96. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    A lot of other changes would be needed to get people marrying and having kids younger. There would have to be cultural and legal changes to undo what has changed in the last 50 years.

  97. @Steve Sailer
    It's not really a horror plot twist.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    Modestly upbeat ending? Okay, I will take your word for it. I don’t know how upbeat it can be when a new mom turns out to have a severe mental illness. Such things are not usually curable.

  98. @Rosie
    Never forget to look at the data.

    https://qz.com/1125805/the-reason-the-richest-women-in-the-us-are-the-ones-having-the-most-kids/

    “Data” and “Quartz.”

    https://qz.com/880222/how-many-people-in-the-us-identify-as-transgender/

    As noted, reactionaries have been studying this for a heck of a longer and of course, the well-known fecundity of religious families quite independent of economics(and the inelasticity of TFR and especially younger marriage for women to economic incentives worldwide) all contribute a much more meaningful analysis than than an infamously well-known hard-left webzine.

    • Replies: @Lot
    Are you disputing the data showing that the old really bad dysgenic fertility pattern among white women has largely ended and is now about neutral? Quartz isn't the only one who has written about this.

    It'd be better if it were actually eugenic, and the flat income-fertility line is still probably dysgenic when you account for age. Still superior to the 1980 pattern.
    , @Rosie

    especially younger marriage for women
     
    There is no need for younger marriage among women despite historical correlation. A woman's brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties. Children younger than that is not ideal. Moreover, teen pregnancy is associated with higher risk of childbirth complications, which I would expect to disproportionately affect intelligent women whose babies have larger heads.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418963/&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-Ozrmf7aAhWBzlkKHUcNADgQFjALegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3MyLyu08anSrMoC0Dkqu46
  99. Lot says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    "Data" and "Quartz."

    https://qz.com/880222/how-many-people-in-the-us-identify-as-transgender/

    As noted, reactionaries have been studying this for a heck of a longer and of course, the well-known fecundity of religious families quite independent of economics(and the inelasticity of TFR and especially younger marriage for women to economic incentives worldwide) all contribute a much more meaningful analysis than than an infamously well-known hard-left webzine.

    Are you disputing the data showing that the old really bad dysgenic fertility pattern among white women has largely ended and is now about neutral? Quartz isn’t the only one who has written about this.

    It’d be better if it were actually eugenic, and the flat income-fertility line is still probably dysgenic when you account for age. Still superior to the 1980 pattern.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Still inferior to pre-1960 TFR of 4 in urban Quebec. As for eugenics, it is incorrect to merely tie it to income level. Aging rate of childbearing(especially in women, but not exclusively so) substantially increases rate of birth defects; we consider the major ones, but there are also much of what is "nonsymptomic" such as increased levels of bilirubin levels which have been associated in the long run with decreased executive functioning levels.
  100. @Steve Sailer
    It's not really a horror plot twist.

    The ending is modestly upbeat with somebody unexpected helping out.

    “Young Adult” Screenplay by Diablo Cody was another Charlize Theron flick . It looked like a comedy in the trailer but I found it to be gloomy and depressing but quite good . I won’t see this movie though . I’ve got my own gloomy and depressing life .
    BTW have you seen “You Were Never Really Here” ? The same writer director did “We Need to Talk About Kevin” which I thought was quite good .

  101. @Daniel Chieh
    Part of it, potentially, but it plummeted to 1.4 after the Quiet Revolution and incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it. Birth control alone cannot explain the divergence(other countries have attempted birth control bans but it does not reverse TFR to that extent).

    “incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it”

    Then they should be even higher. If you have 4 kids under 18 in your household, no tax on any income below $250,000. That’s worth more like $50,000 compared to current policy.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    So the solution is to double-down on something which didn't appear to work? Anyway, doing some back-of-envelope calculations, that was equivalent of $17k in modern-day dollars but it did almost nothing at all to impact TFR(well...a little. Went to 1.5 from 1.4).

    Someone should try to do a study of such programs across the world - I imagine that there have been more generous ones. It has, regardless, been fairly ineffective. There are certainly economic factors, but they really do seem minor compared to other values. You'd be better off limiting access to contraception with a religious framework for it, as Poland was/is trying to do from 2017.

    Part of the consideration is that the secular DINK couples will be in a modern context be more wealthy, which translates into political power and naturally will push against any social welfare programs expressly against their interest. Until the factors for that are addressed, everything else is just window dressing and larping.

  102. @Lot
    Are you disputing the data showing that the old really bad dysgenic fertility pattern among white women has largely ended and is now about neutral? Quartz isn't the only one who has written about this.

    It'd be better if it were actually eugenic, and the flat income-fertility line is still probably dysgenic when you account for age. Still superior to the 1980 pattern.

    Still inferior to pre-1960 TFR of 4 in urban Quebec. As for eugenics, it is incorrect to merely tie it to income level. Aging rate of childbearing(especially in women, but not exclusively so) substantially increases rate of birth defects; we consider the major ones, but there are also much of what is “nonsymptomic” such as increased levels of bilirubin levels which have been associated in the long run with decreased executive functioning levels.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I scanned the wiki on the Quiet Revolution... very interesting. Basically, did people leave the religion of the RCC for the religion of the state? Similar to Europe I guess. Worshiping the state makes you have a lot fewer babies.

    https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth85b-eng.htm

    The only province in Canada having replacement-level babies is Nunavut. Why do you suppose that is?
  103. @Lot
    "incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it"

    Then they should be even higher. If you have 4 kids under 18 in your household, no tax on any income below $250,000. That's worth more like $50,000 compared to current policy.

    So the solution is to double-down on something which didn’t appear to work? Anyway, doing some back-of-envelope calculations, that was equivalent of $17k in modern-day dollars but it did almost nothing at all to impact TFR(well…a little. Went to 1.5 from 1.4).

    Someone should try to do a study of such programs across the world – I imagine that there have been more generous ones. It has, regardless, been fairly ineffective. There are certainly economic factors, but they really do seem minor compared to other values. You’d be better off limiting access to contraception with a religious framework for it, as Poland was/is trying to do from 2017.

    Part of the consideration is that the secular DINK couples will be in a modern context be more wealthy, which translates into political power and naturally will push against any social welfare programs expressly against their interest. Until the factors for that are addressed, everything else is just window dressing and larping.

  104. @Anon7
    I’m hoping this isn’t one of those movies that assure young women that they can ride the carousel until they get kicked off before having kids, and that the only problem is feeling tired.

    Mother’s Age / Odds of Downs / Odds of chromosomal abnormality

    20 years old / 1 in 1923 / 1 in 526
    30 years old / 1 in 885 / 1 in 384
    40 years old / 1 in 109 / 1 in 63
    41 years old / 1 in 85 / 1 in 48
    42 years old / 1 in 67 / 1 in 39

    There’s also the issue of finding a guy willing to buy the well-used cow. Maybe some guys are okay with marrying a former carousel-riding trollop, but most are not.

    What sometimes happens is they end up marrying a lower status guy than they would have had they done a better job of keeping their legs together.

    I know a woman like that (she was my girlfriend through most of high school) – a 7 pushing an 8 on the looks meter. But then she slept with dozens of guys in college and after. By her late 20’s nobody in our hometown had any interest. She’d call me periodically to see if we could “give it another shot”. No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.

    She moved away and ended up marrying some fat slob IT guy. I don’t know if he knows she used to be a pin cushion or not. He’s happy to have a 7/8 and he’s the best she could do. Last time I talked to her, she was not happy about it.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.
     
    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.
  105. Minor mistake: Ron Livingston plays the husband, Duplass is her brother.

    The existence of Roissy is one of those things I wish this blog had never introduced me to.

  106. @Daniel Chieh
    Still inferior to pre-1960 TFR of 4 in urban Quebec. As for eugenics, it is incorrect to merely tie it to income level. Aging rate of childbearing(especially in women, but not exclusively so) substantially increases rate of birth defects; we consider the major ones, but there are also much of what is "nonsymptomic" such as increased levels of bilirubin levels which have been associated in the long run with decreased executive functioning levels.

    I scanned the wiki on the Quiet Revolution… very interesting. Basically, did people leave the religion of the RCC for the religion of the state? Similar to Europe I guess. Worshiping the state makes you have a lot fewer babies.

    https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth85b-eng.htm

    The only province in Canada having replacement-level babies is Nunavut. Why do you suppose that is?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh


    I scanned the wiki on the Quiet Revolution… very interesting. Basically, did people leave the religion of the RCC for the religion of the state?
     
    One thing which was interesting is that in my interviewees is that they often objected - harshly - to the expression "Quiet Revolution." Evidently it was neither all that quiet nor all that nonviolent, and in 1960s style, involved both politically motivated murders and bombings. At least both the communists and the nationalists then were more interesting. And I suppose you didn't have a kind of powerful state.

    And its all brushed down now under the notion of a quiet, fairly happy change. Hah.

    Something that disturbs me is that notion that history is actually being vanished like that and entire events will be forgotten and remembered only in the most liberal-friendly manner.

    The only province in Canada having replacement-level babies is Nunavut. Why do you suppose that is?

     

    Maybe someday, when I don't have a day job, I can interview more people outside of French Canada :(
  107. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    Rod, another name for Rod is Dick, as in you are one. My wife had our first daughter when she was 43 and the second at 45. We married when she was 38 and I was 36. We had lived full lives and travelled extensively, our honeymoon being 33 days visiting what we used to call the Orient. As a mature woman she was heads and shoulders above most of our daughters friend’s moms. Primigravida is certainly not advisable for some women, just as motherhood isn’t for all women. Oh, and my youngest daughter from my first marriage had her son at 42. She came through fine and my grandson is a gem. Happy Mother’s Day Rod.

  108. @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere
    Daniel Chieh wrote that "the throttling has only a little to do with economics."
    That is sophistry. It has to do with changes that are constitutive to modern economies, even if they are not themselves economic in nature.

    I also know of a Japanese town whose mayor thought that Japanese fertility was too low and decided to try to do something about it. The result: a doubling of the local birth rate - entirely achieved via mundane practical measures like making daycare easily available. And this is not the only piece of evidence that economic concepts and practices do indeed seem to be determinative of demographic outcomes. The developments during the transformation of the former Warsaw Pact countries point in the same direction (and also fully explain many of the policy choices Orban, Kaczynski et al. have opted for).

    http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-fertility-crisis-2017-4

    If it was easily replicable, it would have been done elsewhere. The fertility in Nagicho has fallen below replacement since then, and it was already a highly religious, fairly un-urbanized and relatively rural region(and the effort there included agribusiness promotion). Japanese TFR is highest in…not in Japan, but Okinawa, where the GDP/capita is nearly half of that of Tokyo and makes it one of the poorest regions in Japan.

  109. @Anon
    The black woman had a huge chip on her shoulder, so I really, really want to hate her, but the white woman seems to be a head case in her own right. She has law and engineering degrees and is pursuing a philosophy Ph.D. What job is she pursuing, and how much are her student loans going to end up being? And is "she" a woman-born-woman or trans (engineering?)?

    This is a case where I really want a lot more facts. Where is the dormatory located? Is it a security building? What is the neighborhood like, crime, demographics? What is the previous history of these two?--a prior encounter was hinted at. Why was the woman sleeping there rather than in her room? Did the white woman know the black women and lie in the report to the police that she was an intruder? And why is the media not asking questions like this before running with the party line? And why is there not a third-party contrarian website asking and investigating questions like this to steal traffic from the normal aggregators by offering something unique?

    Anon, she is looking for a job where she can meditate on whether you have a legal right to build what you want to build, the way you want to build it. There, that covers it.

  110. @Alden
    Who gains 40 pounds when pregnant? Only in movies I guess.

    2 kinds of comedies I can’t stand and never watch. First is wedding preparation comedies. Second is getting pregnant being pregnant and having the baby comedies.

    Can’t figure out which is worse, the ones where the couple has to make an effort to get pregnant and the reluctant husband has to preform on order snicker snicker

    Then there are the ones where the baby is a Jewish boy and the million vulgar Bris jokes

    Then the diaper changing jokes like a 3 year old giggling about the baby going poopie.

    But the wedding comedies are the worst

    My mom was model thin when she got pregnant with my little sister. She gained over 50 pounds to have a healthy pregnancy and my sister was a big baby. Then my mom shrunk back to being skinny again, though she was never model thin again.

    And that was a good thing. Model thin girls do not look better in real life. When a girl looks like that, her family worries.

  111. @William Badwhite
    There's also the issue of finding a guy willing to buy the well-used cow. Maybe some guys are okay with marrying a former carousel-riding trollop, but most are not.

    What sometimes happens is they end up marrying a lower status guy than they would have had they done a better job of keeping their legs together.

    I know a woman like that (she was my girlfriend through most of high school) - a 7 pushing an 8 on the looks meter. But then she slept with dozens of guys in college and after. By her late 20's nobody in our hometown had any interest. She'd call me periodically to see if we could "give it another shot". No thanks. I'd let her spend the night though.

    She moved away and ended up marrying some fat slob IT guy. I don't know if he knows she used to be a pin cushion or not. He's happy to have a 7/8 and he's the best she could do. Last time I talked to her, she was not happy about it.

    No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.

    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    Your one-sentence reply contained only a statement, no conclusion or point. However I will assume you were calling me a psychopath.

    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.
     
    I treated her well and not as a "thing". I was fond of her and enjoyed her company. I just wasn't going to marry her and told her so when she'd push me to "give it another shot".

    Men don't want to marry the town slut. You don't have to like it.
    , @L Woods
    A behavior so much the norm among women towards men as to pass without notice or remark, let alone pathologization.
    , @BB753
    Yes, the girl might have been a psychopath of some sort. Not our poster. He's showing here in his story he cared about her. While the girl seemed to have no interest in men other than as studs and she ended up marrying a guy she despises.
  112. @Daniel Chieh
    "Data" and "Quartz."

    https://qz.com/880222/how-many-people-in-the-us-identify-as-transgender/

    As noted, reactionaries have been studying this for a heck of a longer and of course, the well-known fecundity of religious families quite independent of economics(and the inelasticity of TFR and especially younger marriage for women to economic incentives worldwide) all contribute a much more meaningful analysis than than an infamously well-known hard-left webzine.

    especially younger marriage for women

    There is no need for younger marriage among women despite historical correlation. A woman’s brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties. Children younger than that is not ideal. Moreover, teen pregnancy is associated with higher risk of childbirth complications, which I would expect to disproportionately affect intelligent women whose babies have larger heads.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418963/&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-Ozrmf7aAhWBzlkKHUcNADgQFjALegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3MyLyu08anSrMoC0Dkqu46

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    People's brains never stop "developing" until close to death due to the very nature of neurogenesis. This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.

    Chromosomal anomalities increase in age for women(and men, to a lesser degree):

    https://33ml8lnxhxs2znps8rc102vb-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Genetic-abnormalities.jpg

    Assuming even the wild nonsequitor of infant brain size had anything to do with this, female height and size development pretty much ends by 15. The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    A woman’s brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties.
     
    If ever.
  113. @Danindc
    Exile in Guyville was the 90’s album of the decade. Juno was an embarrassment. I don’t see the correlation.

    Exile in Guyville was the 90’s album of the decade. Juno was an embarrassment. I don’t see the correlation.

    Juno = Exile in Guyville = the debut that critics hailed as the dawning of a brilliant career

  114. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    I can’t find a link, but I remember hearing or reading someone state the reason why Black and Hispanic women have a cavalier attitude about being teen moms.

    It’s because due to urban violence and the poor health care offered where they live, they’re not sure if they’ll live to see 30. They don’t have the luxury of postponing motherhood.

  115. @Dave Pinsen
    "Why Can't I" is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    https://youtu.be/f1MVkrk68Jg

    My post was strictly based on how critics view the works. I probably should have stated that.

  116. @stillCARealist
    I scanned the wiki on the Quiet Revolution... very interesting. Basically, did people leave the religion of the RCC for the religion of the state? Similar to Europe I guess. Worshiping the state makes you have a lot fewer babies.

    https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth85b-eng.htm

    The only province in Canada having replacement-level babies is Nunavut. Why do you suppose that is?

    I scanned the wiki on the Quiet Revolution… very interesting. Basically, did people leave the religion of the RCC for the religion of the state?

    One thing which was interesting is that in my interviewees is that they often objected – harshly – to the expression “Quiet Revolution.” Evidently it was neither all that quiet nor all that nonviolent, and in 1960s style, involved both politically motivated murders and bombings. At least both the communists and the nationalists then were more interesting. And I suppose you didn’t have a kind of powerful state.

    And its all brushed down now under the notion of a quiet, fairly happy change. Hah.

    Something that disturbs me is that notion that history is actually being vanished like that and entire events will be forgotten and remembered only in the most liberal-friendly manner.

    The only province in Canada having replacement-level babies is Nunavut. Why do you suppose that is?

    Maybe someday, when I don’t have a day job, I can interview more people outside of French Canada 🙁

  117. @L Woods
    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream. On the other hand, with success like this, failure looks pretty good. Every movement and enterprise undergoes the same cycle of ascent and demise, because white men no longer have it in them to set boundaries or say no to women when they inevitably arrive to work their uniquely ruinous magic. It reminds me of an aircraft stall cycle with a panicked pilot trying to pull out of it by pulling up: false recovery, doomed descent, and so on straight into the ground.

    Alden’s been around for years, Rosie is new.

    I don’t think they’re much more trolls than the rest of us– “crank” would be a charitable description for the most part.

  118. @Rosie

    especially younger marriage for women
     
    There is no need for younger marriage among women despite historical correlation. A woman's brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties. Children younger than that is not ideal. Moreover, teen pregnancy is associated with higher risk of childbirth complications, which I would expect to disproportionately affect intelligent women whose babies have larger heads.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418963/&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-Ozrmf7aAhWBzlkKHUcNADgQFjALegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3MyLyu08anSrMoC0Dkqu46

    People’s brains never stop “developing” until close to death due to the very nature of neurogenesis. This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.

    Chromosomal anomalities increase in age for women(and men, to a lesser degree):

    Assuming even the wild nonsequitor of infant brain size had anything to do with this, female height and size development pretty much ends by 15. The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.
     
    So,what? There is a difference between sexual maturity and emotional maturity. I realize that MGTOWs think women remain children forever, rendering this a moot point. Normal, sensible people know better.

    The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.
     
    Risk of c-section births increases with each birth, which is why doctors frequently advise against more than three.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/expert-answers/c-sections/faq-20058380

    It's very foolish to deliberately court c-section risk by encouraging teen pregnancy.
    , @AnotherGuessModel
    Women can wait a few precious years to ride out puberty before having children, at negligible risk to their babies' cognitive ability. The various medical risks associated with teen pregnancy for mother and child are a feature, not a bug. There is even evidence that teen pregnancy has long-term adverse health effects to the mother (developmental, not social factors). Menarche does not mean that your body is ready soon after to have children. Teen pregnancy is a disruption of puberty, which is a transitional biological stage meant to prepare your body to have babies. And while age of sexual maturity differs by race, 15 as an estimated cap for development is too young for the West (height, maybe, but that's very different).

    Also, the case for teen pregnancy throughout history is overstated. Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty. Most "regular" women in antiquity and medieval times married and started having children at 22-25. In ancient Greece, wealthy or aristocratic girls were married off young and sent to live in their husband's home, but they delayed having children until 19-20. The medieval aristocratic classes pushed marriage and motherhood on teenage girls. It had so many sad outcomes that despite the sacrament of marriage and procreation, some churches tried to proscribe rules against it.

  119. @Roger
    Tully is being marketed as a romantic comedy, while it is really a horror movie. Is that right?

    If so, I think that you should tell us the Big Plot Twist. People should not get Rosemary's Baby when they are expecting a romantic comedy.

    I don’t care about seeing this movie, so I spoiled the plot for myself by looking it up at Wikipedia. I can confirm what Steve said, that the plot twist is not a horror plot twist.

    Now Pandorum, that movie had a (sci-fi) horror plot twist(s).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    That was a movie that desperately needed a sequel.
  120. @MEH 0910
    I don't care about seeing this movie, so I spoiled the plot for myself by looking it up at Wikipedia. I can confirm what Steve said, that the plot twist is not a horror plot twist.

    Now Pandorum, that movie had a (sci-fi) horror plot twist(s).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wAfG-KuOeI

    That was a movie that desperately needed a sequel.

  121. @Cloudbuster
    Another anti-family Hollywood POS.

    What are you talking about? Cody and Reitman are producing some of the most slyly conservative films in Hollywood. It’s a wonder they can make traditionalist themes so relevant to contemporary audiences.

    Juno (have the baby, you won’t regret it)
    Young Adult (not having a baby sucks; suburban life > urban striving)
    Up in the Air (being alone sucks, get married)
    Paradise (small-town Christian values really aren’t so bad after all)
    Labor Day (fathers are really important)

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    Interview with Cody: https://www.thedailybeast.com/diablo-codys-personal-and-directorial-paradise

    "I honestly mean no disrespect to any church. I myself am a spiritual, religious person. I am a believer."

    She comes across just as Steve has described her: a libertine id coupled to conservative wisdom.
  122. @Anonymous
    Outrageous stats from anon7... source?

    Probably accurate. 'Dirty' is the adjective used most with the noun 'whore'.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    But right now we are at peak beta-tude with that prince in england marrying the 90 iq octaroon older slut. What a calamity. He should be marrying a 20 yr old Nordic goddess with brains and five kids in her future.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    Yes.

    I believe the sugar baby industry is a precursor to the return to historical norms.

    It will eventually occur to both the men and the girls that they can simply normalize the relationship. Not as in the men suddenly marrying their sugar babies, but in both sides seeking the more conventional financial-romantic relationship with other partners, but still with the age gap.

    I predict that sugar daddies will begin to offer higher rates and bonuses for virgins. This will finally drive home the (forgotten) point to girls that it pays to keep their legs closed. Then after that, it’s on. The same concept will rapidly drift over into “normal” relationships.

    This still isn’t going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though. There have always been sluts, and there always will be. I think we will head toward more historical normal percentages of sluts, but never really get there. Higher base slut percentage.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    The kind of rates the girls can command in these relationships are unreal. Even the not particularly attractive ones. And often even without sex involved. Your daily reminder that all the screeching about "male privilege" is just redirected rage at the prettier half of the female population hogging the loot.
    , @Rosie

    This still isn’t going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though.
     
    At least not till he's thirty-something. Encouraging women to sell themselves to the highest bidder won't work out well for young men.
  123. @Rosie

    No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.
     
    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.

    Your one-sentence reply contained only a statement, no conclusion or point. However I will assume you were calling me a psychopath.

    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.

    I treated her well and not as a “thing”. I was fond of her and enjoyed her company. I just wasn’t going to marry her and told her so when she’d push me to “give it another shot”.

    Men don’t want to marry the town slut. You don’t have to like it.

  124. @27 year old

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.
     
    Yes.

    I believe the sugar baby industry is a precursor to the return to historical norms.

    It will eventually occur to both the men and the girls that they can simply normalize the relationship. Not as in the men suddenly marrying their sugar babies, but in both sides seeking the more conventional financial-romantic relationship with other partners, but still with the age gap.

    I predict that sugar daddies will begin to offer higher rates and bonuses for virgins. This will finally drive home the (forgotten) point to girls that it pays to keep their legs closed. Then after that, it's on. The same concept will rapidly drift over into "normal" relationships.

    This still isn't going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though. There have always been sluts, and there always will be. I think we will head toward more historical normal percentages of sluts, but never really get there. Higher base slut percentage.

    The kind of rates the girls can command in these relationships are unreal. Even the not particularly attractive ones. And often even without sex involved. Your daily reminder that all the screeching about “male privilege” is just redirected rage at the prettier half of the female population hogging the loot.

  125. @Gunnar von Cowtown
    1. All these Diablo Cody fanboys and no one mentions Jennifer's Body (2009)? Am I the only one who liked that movie?
    .
    .
    ***crickets***
    .
    .
    Am I the only one who saw that movie?
    .
    .
    .
    Shut up.

    2.

    Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role.....
     
    The last time she did that, she won an Oscar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

    Any i-Steve themes in Jennifer’s Body? Care to give a short review? I’ve been wanting to watch it but assumed it was Cody’s throwaway, post-Juno, I-need-money-to-make-my-own-film film.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Any i-Steve themes in Jennifer’s Body? Care to give a short review? I’ve been wanting to watch it but assumed it was Cody’s throwaway, post-Juno, I-need-money-to-make-my-own-film film.

     

    Megan Fox is from Tennessee. Tennessee produces some remarkably good looking people. These attractive Tennessee people are also brave and highly immune to the opinions of current fashion.

    Like many from Tennessee, Megan Fox has German, English, Welsh, Scottish and Scotch-Irish blood.

    That Tennessee woman Marsha Blackburn is good looking, and she will be the next Senator for the state of Tennessee.
  126. @Gman
    Off topic
    I am actually surprised and I think this is risky.

    Starbucks bathrooms are now open to anyone who wants to use them, whether they're a paying customer or not.

    Can I shit on the floor ?

  127. @Rosie

    No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.
     
    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.

    A behavior so much the norm among women towards men as to pass without notice or remark, let alone pathologization.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    A behavior so much the norm among women towards men as to pass without notice or remark, let alone pathologization.
     
    So you say. Yet the evidence for male psychopathy is found right here on this forum.
  128. @L Woods
    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream. On the other hand, with success like this, failure looks pretty good. Every movement and enterprise undergoes the same cycle of ascent and demise, because white men no longer have it in them to set boundaries or say no to women when they inevitably arrive to work their uniquely ruinous magic. It reminds me of an aircraft stall cycle with a panicked pilot trying to pull out of it by pulling up: false recovery, doomed descent, and so on straight into the ground.

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.

    Nah, mainstream will be when we have hot groupies that nod along with whatever we say regardless of how insane it is. Then when /our guys/ who have the looks and personality of Ted Cruz start having junior producer thots from the daily shoah waiting for them in their AmRen hotel rooms, then we’ll really know #wedidit fam.

    I don’t think there’s an influx, just one or two that post frequently and combatively. Rosie isn’t really a threat the way that you’re talking about women ruining things, she’s just kind of a pain in the ass who likes to argue.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Rosie's ok. More than a bit of what goes on here could be interpreted as misogyny, just as much could be interpreted as anti-semitism. Kudos to her for wading in.
  129. @Seth Largo
    What are you talking about? Cody and Reitman are producing some of the most slyly conservative films in Hollywood. It's a wonder they can make traditionalist themes so relevant to contemporary audiences.

    Juno (have the baby, you won't regret it)
    Young Adult (not having a baby sucks; suburban life > urban striving)
    Up in the Air (being alone sucks, get married)
    Paradise (small-town Christian values really aren't so bad after all)
    Labor Day (fathers are really important)

    Interview with Cody: https://www.thedailybeast.com/diablo-codys-personal-and-directorial-paradise

    “I honestly mean no disrespect to any church. I myself am a spiritual, religious person. I am a believer.”

    She comes across just as Steve has described her: a libertine id coupled to conservative wisdom.

  130. J.Ross says: • Website
    @larry lurker
    Kind of a dick move to turn the lights out in a common room so you can take a nap, but not worth summoning the police over. The black student's accent (Nigerian?) should have been a hint to the white student that she probably wasn't some random homeless woman.

    When I was in school homeless people were a constant problem. I didn’t hear about any frat rapes but witnessed distraught women running out of bathrooms multiple times because some smelly wierd-looking guy just walked in and sat down. It was the main focus of our college police department. And what accent does anyone have when they’re sleeping?

    • Replies: @larry lurker
    Yikes. We had some skeezy looking people hanging around some of our libraries - including this enormous gypsy-looking 50-year-old woman who would just stand in the lobby of the music library and talk loudly into her cell phone for hours at a time - but nothing that really felt unsafe.

    And what accent does anyone have when they’re sleeping?
     
    Oh, I can ID an Igbo snore from several yards away.

    No, I was going off of this video. But I don't know if the white student first attempted talking to her before calling the cops or if it was just, "Wake up, the police are coming."

  131. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Johnny Smoggins
    We're desperately overdue for a chimp out, maybe this could help act as a trigger. Related to this, Starbuck's has announced that anyone who wants to, can use their bathrooms with no purchase necessary. It would be fun to see their urban locations turn into homeless shelters the way public libraries have.

    What we’re overdue for is an Ubuntu overreaction in a district where the cops know the government has their back. I believe and hope we will remain overdue. All the disturbances of the late Obama era happened in places where the cops were corrupted or had been ordered to stand down. When you make Aunty Fa doff her mask, she becomes wonderfully peaceful.

  132. @Rosie

    No thanks. I’d let her spend the night though.
     
    One of the defining characteristics if psychopathy is dealing with people as if they were things.

    Yes, the girl might have been a psychopath of some sort. Not our poster. He’s showing here in his story he cared about her. While the girl seemed to have no interest in men other than as studs and she ended up marrying a guy she despises.

  133. @Anon
    Expected a movie about Cicero. Disappointed.

    Underrated. I kek’d.

  134. @sabril
    FWIW I am a man and I was married at age 26. There is a perception that all men want to screw around, have casual sex, and party in their 20s and 30s, but the majority of men don't even have that option since they are not in the top 10-20% of looks/money/status.

    There are lots of men between the ages of 25 and 30 who would be happy to marry a girl who is roughly their age; childless; not obese; and looking to settle down. Unfortunately there are not a lot of women who meet these criteria these days.

    I think you are very right about this. Women are the ones who have all the power when they’re in their twenties. They don’t want to marry until that power is gone. They want to screw around as long as possible and then marry some stable guy for kids and family. This has been going on for a long time and a lot of young men have realized that they have no chance as all the women go for 20% of men while the rest get little to nothing. Young men in many cases recognize that the payoff for being responsible and working hard isn’t until they’re in their mid to late thirties. This is so far off that it isn’t a motivator and many of them haven’t put the effort into establishing themselves with education and careers.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Women are the ones who have all the power when they’re in their twenties. They don’t want to marry until that power is gone.
     
    That's only true for hot chicks. Granted, these are the only ones men notice or care about.

    Oh dear, look at this...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8gzg6v/okcupid_quietly_deletes_post_your_looks_and_your/

    These stupid incels still think this article supported their point of view, when in fact it demonstrated the opposite.
    , @BB753
    You're wrong: women delaying marriage until their early thirties and riding the carousel was pretty rare until 20 years ago. That's not a long time. It's hardly a generation.
    , @L Woods
    It's not really a motivator to speak of at all. How is marrying some used up 39.5 year old with a mocha colored kid in tow any kind of reward for surrendering your youth to corporate America?
  135. @Tiny Duck
    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    You’re right about Roissy.

    BTW, Young Adult was a terrific movie. But it didn’t do well at the box office so I think that Tully is their (Cody, Reitman) way of trying to worm their way back into the good graces of the Good People. But I haven’t seen it so what do I know?

    • Replies: @sabril
    Tiny Duck the broken watch.

    I would guess that in his younger days, Roissy probably scored with a few girls and then wildly exaggerated his conquests as PUAs are prone to do.

    But it's been a while since his blog contained a lay report.

    I would guess that Roissy is in his 50s and it's just really hard for a man in his 50s to walk into a club and pick up some young hottie. Between the competition from younger guys and fear of judgment of being seen leaving with some old dude, the battle is pretty much lost before such a man spits a single word of "game."
  136. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Kelly in the corner: “DIE-versity.”
    A U.S. Navy officer pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty Tuesday in the collision of a U.S. Navy destroyer that killed seven sailors last year.
    >Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock was sentenced to receive half-pay for three months.

    >She was the officer of the deck at the time of the collision.

    >Prosecutors laid blame at Coppock’s feet, saying she “chose to be blind,” never sought help from the information center, did not respond properly when she saw the Crystal on the radar 12 nautical miles from the ship and lost situational awareness. She failed to sound blasts alerting the Crystal or attempt to contact it, nor did she alert the commanding officer
    >When it became clear that impact was inevitable, she “failed to give the crew notice, a chance to get out of their racks, a chance to brace themselves.”

    >After the collision, a test taken by a control group of officers on board showed that the average score on “rules of the road” at sea was 59 percent
    https://www.stripes.com/fitzgerald-officer-of-the-deck-pleads-guilty-at-court-martial-1.525888

    Welfare queens think they can navigate ships and take other people’s lives on their hands.
    The US Navy and its diversity hires should not be allowed to sail anywhere near commercial shipping lanes from now on.

    from this thread:
    http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/171252286
    First reaction: “women can’t drive a car and someone let her pilot a destroyer?”
    I knew female officers who weren’t a dangerous bad joke but they had this respect and awareness that they were not literally interchangeable with men.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    The presence of women outside of sequestered support roles has wrecked military esprit de corps, irrespective of their individual competence (which is unremarkable at best).
  137. @BB753
    "When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands."

    There's an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
    You can't blame men for women's choices. Most women today prefer to have a "career" and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
    Disclaimer: I'm neither a virgin nor 90 years old.

    There’s an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.

    And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men.

    There is no way to rehabilitate and revive the old double standards.

    You can’t blame men for women’s choices. Most women today prefer to have a “career” and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.

    One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the “best years of their lives.”

    • Replies: @BB753
    "And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men."

    For the majority of men, those 10 years would have been long years of involuntary celibacy or spent cavorting with prostitutes once a week. Good ol' patriarchy was no fun even for men.

    " One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the “best years of their lives.”"

    That's just a cliché. Few men could afford divorce and still can't today.
    , @Flip
    That's uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I've seen have been initiated by the wife.
  138. @Alden
    How many children do you have?

    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?

    Oh, I forgot, you are a man most probably celibate and childless and don’t know what you are talking about.

    When men don’t marry till 40, I don’t see how you can expect the 35 37 year old women they marry to have babies at age 25 before they even meet the husbands.

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.

    25 Anon[257] > who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby

    all by myself, i can knock up every one of your daughters and nieces, in a few weeks of activity

  139. @L Woods
    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream. On the other hand, with success like this, failure looks pretty good. Every movement and enterprise undergoes the same cycle of ascent and demise, because white men no longer have it in them to set boundaries or say no to women when they inevitably arrive to work their uniquely ruinous magic. It reminds me of an aircraft stall cycle with a panicked pilot trying to pull out of it by pulling up: false recovery, doomed descent, and so on straight into the ground.

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.

    On what grounds do you call us “trolls”? Is there some reason other than that we disagree with you?

    • Replies: @L Woods
    Maybe this sort of prolific, fatuous abrasiveness comes naturally. My apologies
  140. @27 year old

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.
     
    Yes.

    I believe the sugar baby industry is a precursor to the return to historical norms.

    It will eventually occur to both the men and the girls that they can simply normalize the relationship. Not as in the men suddenly marrying their sugar babies, but in both sides seeking the more conventional financial-romantic relationship with other partners, but still with the age gap.

    I predict that sugar daddies will begin to offer higher rates and bonuses for virgins. This will finally drive home the (forgotten) point to girls that it pays to keep their legs closed. Then after that, it's on. The same concept will rapidly drift over into "normal" relationships.

    This still isn't going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though. There have always been sluts, and there always will be. I think we will head toward more historical normal percentages of sluts, but never really get there. Higher base slut percentage.

    This still isn’t going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though.

    At least not till he’s thirty-something. Encouraging women to sell themselves to the highest bidder won’t work out well for young men.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    The bottom 80% of them have nothing to lose under the current paradigm anyway. At least this provides some sort of hope.
  141. @L Woods
    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream. On the other hand, with success like this, failure looks pretty good. Every movement and enterprise undergoes the same cycle of ascent and demise, because white men no longer have it in them to set boundaries or say no to women when they inevitably arrive to work their uniquely ruinous magic. It reminds me of an aircraft stall cycle with a panicked pilot trying to pull out of it by pulling up: false recovery, doomed descent, and so on straight into the ground.

    L Woods,

    You clearly think women have no legitimate right to participate in this forum. Let’s make a deal, you MGTOWs get out of the pro-White movement and go your own way already, and White women will gladly leave you to it.

    Manosphere types have been trying to advance the idea that there is such a thing as men’s interests, and that these are identical with White interests, and this is untrue and very damaging to our already-divided people.

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.
     
    No, the real conflict of interests is between women and women.

    I'm a guy, but I grew up in a family full of women. Nothing but drama drama drama all through my youth. Even now, in my thirties, I still get caught in the crossfire between my mother and my aunt.

    We're supposed to be having a kind of a family reunion at a restaurant tomorrow. We were supposed to have it back in December, but my aunt canceled at the last minute. We rescheduled; she canceled again, at the last minute. We rescheduled a third time; she canceled a third time, at the last minute. We rescheduled a fourth time; I had a dental emergency and had to postpone it.

    In the interim, my aunt decided that she didn't want to eat at the restaurant where my mother wanted to go. I suggested another restaurant; she agreed to it.

    We're supposed to be meeting tomorrow. A few minutes ago, I got a text message telling me, in effect, "I'm changing the plans. We're eating at another restaurant." She didn't *ask* if we could eat at another restaurant; she *told* me that we were going to be eating there. She unilaterally made the decision. Now my mother is on the warpath, going on and on and on about how her sister is such a control freak.

    All my mother talks about is the stuff that happened when they were kids. Supposedly my aunt used to lie to my grandparents to get my mother in trouble. My sixtysomething mother goes on and on and on about trivial things that happened back in the 1960s. I wasn't there; I don't know what happened; I don't care what happened; my mother doesn't care that I don't care, and keeps going on and on and on about it. Listening to her whine makes me want to cut my ears off.

    For her part, my aunt is always finding fault with my mother (and me, for that matter). She's always telling us why we're wrong. She does everything better than anyone and everyone. She always knows best; she never hesitates to tell us so.

    My mother blows up at my aunt when the latter tries to tell the former why she's always right and everyone else is always wrong. I just sit there with a strained smile on my face, waiting for the noise to stop.

    My aunt has a daughter. I won't even get started on my mother's "thing" against my cousin.

    This is nothing new. Some years ago, we were going to have a family dinner at my grandmother's house. My grandmother was going to make meatloaf. My mother was looking forward to the meatloaf. Then my aunt asked my grandmother to make roast beef. My mother went ballistic. My mother asked my grandmother to make meatloaf, but my grandmother said that she had already made the arrangements for roast beef. My mother was furious with my aunt for trying to control the situation, and angry at my grandmother for siding with my aunt. We ended up having roast beef, and my mother ended up spitting poison at my aunt all night long.

    My grandmother has Alzheimer's now. There's a whole big "thing" between my mother and my aunt over my grandmother's care. (My uncle is also involved.) I won't even get into that.

    This type of stuff has been going on as long as I've been alive. It's very tedious.

    I'm an only child, so my mother is always calling me, trying to drag me into her affairs. I live near her, so it's easy for her to guilt-trip me into coming over to handle such-and-such a manufactured crisis. (I'm the one who makes sure that her grass gets cut and that her bills get paid. She has a P.O. Box that she often guilt-trips me into checking.)

    I'm not a MGTOW, but I can see why so many men decide that they don't women in their lives.
    , @L Woods
    Eternal feminist yammering, but without minorities in the background -- there's a cause worth fighting for. All the same, those being the terms, I think I'll keep my subsidized healthcare and eventual defined government pension.
  142. @Anonymous
    OT, but funny:

    Man Allegedly Used Change Of Address Form To Move UPS Headquarters To His Apartment

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/05/10/dushaun-henderson-spruce_vert-dd3021d1c839b3095ebf7f8310dbd16444653ebd-s400-c85.jpg


    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/10/610102872/man-allegedly-used-change-of-address-form-to-move-ups-headquarters-to-his-apartm


    Disclaimer: As a former UPSer myself, I have no sympathy for UPS, but the fact that the even more stupid USPS would deliver a shit ton of mail marked UPS to a private apartment.......Anyone receiving that much mail to an apartment should be a huge red flag in and of itself, as well as any private residence receiving any mail addressed to a major corporation-and I know for a personal fact that the USPS knows who UPS are. They're like the Hell's Angels and the Pagan's that way. (The apostrophe in "Pagan's" is how they spell it. Don't ask why.)

    Muggeride’s Law in action

  143. @Daniel Chieh
    People's brains never stop "developing" until close to death due to the very nature of neurogenesis. This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.

    Chromosomal anomalities increase in age for women(and men, to a lesser degree):

    https://33ml8lnxhxs2znps8rc102vb-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Genetic-abnormalities.jpg

    Assuming even the wild nonsequitor of infant brain size had anything to do with this, female height and size development pretty much ends by 15. The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.

    This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.

    So,what? There is a difference between sexual maturity and emotional maturity. I realize that MGTOWs think women remain children forever, rendering this a moot point. Normal, sensible people know better.

    The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.

    Risk of c-section births increases with each birth, which is why doctors frequently advise against more than three.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/expert-answers/c-sections/faq-20058380

    It’s very foolish to deliberately court c-section risk by encouraging teen pregnancy.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Returning to the first post: the statements indicated do not address the biological issues at all and your inability to utilize the skill known as reading comprehension in regards to the much more significant, frequent and intractable issues of chromosomal anomalies means that you do not deserve a reply.

    Re-read the post and try to gain an understanding.
  144. @Anonymous
    Outrageous stats from anon7... source?

    Probably accurate. 'Dirty' is the adjective used most with the noun 'whore'.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    But right now we are at peak beta-tude with that prince in england marrying the 90 iq octaroon older slut. What a calamity. He should be marrying a 20 yr old Nordic goddess with brains and five kids in her future.

    Buddy of mine opined that all his other more suitable GFs backed out once they realized the endless papparazzi their new celebrity would bring. Kate Middleton enjoys the life; others probably remember Diana too well. This babe is used to celebrity.

  145. @Rosie

    There’s an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
     
    And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men.

    There is no way to rehabilitate and revive the old double standards.

    You can’t blame men for women’s choices. Most women today prefer to have a “career” and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
     
    One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the "best years of their lives."

    “And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men.”

    For the majority of men, those 10 years would have been long years of involuntary celibacy or spent cavorting with prostitutes once a week. Good ol’ patriarchy was no fun even for men.

    ” One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the “best years of their lives.””

    That’s just a cliché. Few men could afford divorce and still can’t today.

    • Replies: @sabril
    Yeah, I think Rosie is making the typical feminist mistake of looking only at men at the peak in terms of looks/money/social status.

    For most women, men below that peak are literally invisible. Your average guy can't spend his 20s riding the c*nt carousel, so to speak and then settle down. Your average guy can't dump his long term wife for some young hottie. The mathematics of the situation simply won't allow it, both in terms of the number of available women and the cost of alimony and child support.

    No, the only men who can engage in these types of behaviors are those who are very wealthy and high in social status. But feminists (and women in general) pay a wildly disproportionate amount of attention to these types of men and conclude that this is typical male behavior.
  146. @Rosie

    This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.
     
    So,what? There is a difference between sexual maturity and emotional maturity. I realize that MGTOWs think women remain children forever, rendering this a moot point. Normal, sensible people know better.

    The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.
     
    Risk of c-section births increases with each birth, which is why doctors frequently advise against more than three.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/expert-answers/c-sections/faq-20058380

    It's very foolish to deliberately court c-section risk by encouraging teen pregnancy.

    Returning to the first post: the statements indicated do not address the biological issues at all and your inability to utilize the skill known as reading comprehension in regards to the much more significant, frequent and intractable issues of chromosomal anomalies means that you do not deserve a reply.

    Re-read the post and try to gain an understanding.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    ... means that you do not deserve a reply.
     
    So why did you bother?

    You're problem is that you are incapable of understanding that rejecting teen pregnancy as an ideal doesn't necessarily mean that I endorse postponing pregnancy till the late thirties.

    BTW, can't they test for chromosomal abnormalities, now? Perhaps there's a way to prevent birth defects without destroying teenage girls'reproductive organs.

  147. @Joe862
    I think you are very right about this. Women are the ones who have all the power when they're in their twenties. They don't want to marry until that power is gone. They want to screw around as long as possible and then marry some stable guy for kids and family. This has been going on for a long time and a lot of young men have realized that they have no chance as all the women go for 20% of men while the rest get little to nothing. Young men in many cases recognize that the payoff for being responsible and working hard isn't until they're in their mid to late thirties. This is so far off that it isn't a motivator and many of them haven't put the effort into establishing themselves with education and careers.

    Women are the ones who have all the power when they’re in their twenties. They don’t want to marry until that power is gone.

    That’s only true for hot chicks. Granted, these are the only ones men notice or care about.

    Oh dear, look at this…

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8gzg6v/okcupid_quietly_deletes_post_your_looks_and_your/

    These stupid incels still think this article supported their point of view, when in fact it demonstrated the opposite.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    For posterity:

    mikepencetheincel• 6d
    The genetic cleansing is coming.

    5
    hisayo92 • 6d
    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    5
     
    , @Joe862
    Women in their twenties are as attractive as they'll ever be. It's the 80/20 rule. 80% are reasonably attractive at 20 and by 35 or 40 80% are amorphous blobs. They waste their power on the 20% of guys who'll never marry them. okcupid is hardly representative.
  148. @Joe862
    I think you are very right about this. Women are the ones who have all the power when they're in their twenties. They don't want to marry until that power is gone. They want to screw around as long as possible and then marry some stable guy for kids and family. This has been going on for a long time and a lot of young men have realized that they have no chance as all the women go for 20% of men while the rest get little to nothing. Young men in many cases recognize that the payoff for being responsible and working hard isn't until they're in their mid to late thirties. This is so far off that it isn't a motivator and many of them haven't put the effort into establishing themselves with education and careers.

    You’re wrong: women delaying marriage until their early thirties and riding the carousel was pretty rare until 20 years ago. That’s not a long time. It’s hardly a generation.

    • Replies: @Joe862
    It's a long time in this context. For a guy in his twenties it's been going on his whole life. For a guy in his thirties it's been going on most of his life and most likely for as long as he can remember.
  149. @Rosie

    Women are the ones who have all the power when they’re in their twenties. They don’t want to marry until that power is gone.
     
    That's only true for hot chicks. Granted, these are the only ones men notice or care about.

    Oh dear, look at this...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8gzg6v/okcupid_quietly_deletes_post_your_looks_and_your/

    These stupid incels still think this article supported their point of view, when in fact it demonstrated the opposite.

    For posterity:

    mikepencetheincel• 6d
    The genetic cleansing is coming.

    5
    hisayo92 • 6d
    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    5

    • Replies: @Whiskey
    Charming, cute = 250 lbs plus, blue hair. Essentially Trigglypuff.

    Most Joe Average dudes prefer the girl next door. But Trigglypuff ain't getting action .
    , @Autochthon
    Rosie, dear, I hate to explain this to you, but the data do indeed impugn women far more than men. (I don't know what an incel is or what it's point of view may be, but I get the impression from your tone and context you reckon an incel is a male and that these data somehow exhort us to hear you roar).

    I've written abut the topic a few times around here and there are reams of data easily available. The discussion you cite is only a recent reiteration:

     As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible eighty per cent of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. [Some sixty per cent of males primarily write to the most desirable thirty per cent of all females. – Autochthon] But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
     It's a mildly interesting read if you are an armchair sociobiologist like so many of us here are. The author went on to be puzzled at why ugly females don't respond to extremely handsome men, surmising that the ugly females lack self-esteem.

    I posit that, instead, what really goes on is that such women are aware, from bitter and cruel experience, that messages to them from handsome dudes wind up being mean jokes, bots, scams from Nigerian princes after their money, or even so-called Chads out for a night of what we used to call hogging when I was in the navy: the urge to seal the deal being strong for whatever reason (just came into port, a penchant for activities the wife won't indulge, emerging from prolonged depression following a break-up, plain old lazy – whatever!), one purposely pursues an ugly or obese woman knowing this dramatically increases one's chances of successfully obtaining sex, but of course with no intention whatsoever of so much as calling the woman again after the tryst.

    I'll warrant in a world of Tinder those unfortunate, unattractive women who want something more meaningful than a one-night stand have long since become hip to the scam and so avoid what appears too good to be true, knowing it ain't. Hell, I'm not Quasimodo but I ain't Ryan Gosling; when I was single and used such services I would regularly get messages from strikingly gorgeous women I knew good and well were out of my league. Bots, every single one of 'em.

    In fact, bots may well best explain everything, including the disingenuous mugging by the writer that the homely gals just need higher self-esteem. If the bots are from advertisers and SEO hacks who, for all we know, pay OK Cupid for access to the platform so they (the bots' managers) can drive clicks to their site ("I don't use OKCupid a lot, but I saw your photo and just had to write. Please get back to me at http://www.youreadamnedfool.com, baby!") ... well, that would explain Ok Cupid's failure to mention the most obvious explanation: people know water seeks its own level.

    Online dating needs to go away. It is socially destructive in the same way more general platforms like Friendface, etc. are. I know it has brought together many happy people, but I suggest it causes many more people enduring harm in its facilitation of hook-up culture, shallow over-emphasis on photogenic appearances, and what psychologists call choice-addiction.

  150. @Daniel Chieh
    Returning to the first post: the statements indicated do not address the biological issues at all and your inability to utilize the skill known as reading comprehension in regards to the much more significant, frequent and intractable issues of chromosomal anomalies means that you do not deserve a reply.

    Re-read the post and try to gain an understanding.

    … means that you do not deserve a reply.

    So why did you bother?

    You’re problem is that you are incapable of understanding that rejecting teen pregnancy as an ideal doesn’t necessarily mean that I endorse postponing pregnancy till the late thirties.

    BTW, can’t they test for chromosomal abnormalities, now? Perhaps there’s a way to prevent birth defects without destroying teenage girls’reproductive organs.

  151. @L Woods
    A behavior so much the norm among women towards men as to pass without notice or remark, let alone pathologization.

    A behavior so much the norm among women towards men as to pass without notice or remark, let alone pathologization.

    So you say. Yet the evidence for male psychopathy is found right here on this forum.

  152. @Rosie
    For posterity:

    mikepencetheincel• 6d
    The genetic cleansing is coming.

    5
    hisayo92 • 6d
    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    5
     

    Charming, cute = 250 lbs plus, blue hair. Essentially Trigglypuff.

    Most Joe Average dudes prefer the girl next door. But Trigglypuff ain’t getting action .

  153. @Rosie

    Women are the ones who have all the power when they’re in their twenties. They don’t want to marry until that power is gone.
     
    That's only true for hot chicks. Granted, these are the only ones men notice or care about.

    Oh dear, look at this...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8gzg6v/okcupid_quietly_deletes_post_your_looks_and_your/

    These stupid incels still think this article supported their point of view, when in fact it demonstrated the opposite.

    Women in their twenties are as attractive as they’ll ever be. It’s the 80/20 rule. 80% are reasonably attractive at 20 and by 35 or 40 80% are amorphous blobs. They waste their power on the 20% of guys who’ll never marry them. okcupid is hardly representative.

    • Replies: @sabril
    Rosie is just engaging in feminist projection and deflection. The idea that 80% of girls in their 20s don't get significant sexual attention from men is palpably ridiculous. And can be easily shown to be false with a dating profile experiment.
  154. @BB753
    You're wrong: women delaying marriage until their early thirties and riding the carousel was pretty rare until 20 years ago. That's not a long time. It's hardly a generation.

    It’s a long time in this context. For a guy in his twenties it’s been going on his whole life. For a guy in his thirties it’s been going on most of his life and most likely for as long as he can remember.

  155. @Seth Largo
    Any i-Steve themes in Jennifer's Body? Care to give a short review? I've been wanting to watch it but assumed it was Cody's throwaway, post-Juno, I-need-money-to-make-my-own-film film.

    Any i-Steve themes in Jennifer’s Body? Care to give a short review? I’ve been wanting to watch it but assumed it was Cody’s throwaway, post-Juno, I-need-money-to-make-my-own-film film.

    Megan Fox is from Tennessee. Tennessee produces some remarkably good looking people. These attractive Tennessee people are also brave and highly immune to the opinions of current fashion.

    Like many from Tennessee, Megan Fox has German, English, Welsh, Scottish and Scotch-Irish blood.

    That Tennessee woman Marsha Blackburn is good looking, and she will be the next Senator for the state of Tennessee.

  156. @Rosie

    especially younger marriage for women
     
    There is no need for younger marriage among women despite historical correlation. A woman's brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties. Children younger than that is not ideal. Moreover, teen pregnancy is associated with higher risk of childbirth complications, which I would expect to disproportionately affect intelligent women whose babies have larger heads.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418963/&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-Ozrmf7aAhWBzlkKHUcNADgQFjALegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3MyLyu08anSrMoC0Dkqu46

    A woman’s brain is not finished developing till the early to mid twenties.

    If ever.

    • LOL: BB753
  157. @27 year old

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.
     
    Nah, mainstream will be when we have hot groupies that nod along with whatever we say regardless of how insane it is. Then when /our guys/ who have the looks and personality of Ted Cruz start having junior producer thots from the daily shoah waiting for them in their AmRen hotel rooms, then we'll really know #wedidit fam.

    I don't think there's an influx, just one or two that post frequently and combatively. Rosie isn't really a threat the way that you're talking about women ruining things, she's just kind of a pain in the ass who likes to argue.

    Rosie’s ok. More than a bit of what goes on here could be interpreted as misogyny, just as much could be interpreted as anti-semitism. Kudos to her for wading in.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Sure, telling the truth about the behavior of women could be called misogyny, if you think that telling the truth about the behavior of women is hatred of women.
  158. @Anonymous
    Outrageous stats from anon7... source?

    Probably accurate. 'Dirty' is the adjective used most with the noun 'whore'.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    But right now we are at peak beta-tude with that prince in england marrying the 90 iq octaroon older slut. What a calamity. He should be marrying a 20 yr old Nordic goddess with brains and five kids in her future.

    I agree with Jim Don Bob. Brainy, Nordic, 20-year-old goddesses don’t marry royalty, at least not ones in the public eye. They marry obscure royals or reclusive billionaire CEOs.

    I woudn’t be surprised if other B-level reality-show alumnae marry noblemen just to stay on the spotlight. The UK should outsource their landed gentry to the US.

  159. @Gman
    Off topic
    I am actually surprised and I think this is risky.

    Starbucks bathrooms are now open to anyone who wants to use them, whether they're a paying customer or not.

    Who wants to sit down to a coffee and scone in the anteroom of a public lavatory?

  160. @AndrewR
    I don't really understand that. All else being equal, I would rather have my eldest kids take care of the youngest ones than have my middle kids do it. What "chores" require more maturity than taking care of a young child requires? I'd much rather have my ten year old do the laundry than watch my baby.

    I work with a woman in her late 30’s who has six children, four older ones including two in their teens and a set of 3-year-old twins (I believe from a second marriage). We were talking about child care and I asked if the teens help out with the twins. She said they do from time to time but she doesn’t think it’s fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They’re at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    She said they do from time to time but she doesn’t think it’s fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They’re at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.
     
    That's great if that works for them, but I must say I disagree.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to every place in the birth order. The elders get more privileges but have more responsibilities. They understand that when it is properly explained to them. They also come to take a great deal of pride in their roles, and they enjoy the respect that they earn from their siblings. I do not hesitate to remind my younger s of all their older siblings do for them when they behave as ungrateful brats.
    , @Ivy
    A waitress at a local lunch spot opined to us that she had six kids by four guys, more or less without benefit of clergy. She was very friendly and gave good service, even to us married guys. There isn't much of a warranty on high-mileage carousels, but California manages.
  161. @J.Ross
    When I was in school homeless people were a constant problem. I didn't hear about any frat rapes but witnessed distraught women running out of bathrooms multiple times because some smelly wierd-looking guy just walked in and sat down. It was the main focus of our college police department. And what accent does anyone have when they're sleeping?

    Yikes. We had some skeezy looking people hanging around some of our libraries – including this enormous gypsy-looking 50-year-old woman who would just stand in the lobby of the music library and talk loudly into her cell phone for hours at a time – but nothing that really felt unsafe.

    And what accent does anyone have when they’re sleeping?

    Oh, I can ID an Igbo snore from several yards away.

    No, I was going off of this video. But I don’t know if the white student first attempted talking to her before calling the cops or if it was just, “Wake up, the police are coming.”

  162. @Rosie

    There’s an easy solution to that problem. Women who really want to have a family in their twenties and not ride the carousel can always marry an older man. Say, 10 to 15 years older than them. It used to be common back in the bad old days when men supported their wives and had large families.
     
    And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men.

    There is no way to rehabilitate and revive the old double standards.

    You can’t blame men for women’s choices. Most women today prefer to have a “career” and ride the carousel, and later in their mid thirties marry a sucker, pop up one child, then typically file for divorce in less than 5 years.
     
    One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the "best years of their lives."

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

    • Replies: @Bel Riose
    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.
    , @Rosie

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

     

    If it's "uncommon," then presumably you won't mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won't affect that many men, anyway.
    , @sabril
    It's common among the kind of men to whom women pay attention.

    We need to keep in mind that for your typical woman, 80-90% of men are sexually invisible. She literally does not perceive them as sexual beings and gives them virtually zero conscious thought.

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it's done politely? The reason is that those women are trying to look good for the Chads, i.e. the small minority of men deemed to be sexually attractive. From the woman's perspective, all other men are non-sexual beings, there just to make her lunch, drive the bus she's on, and in general maintain the infrastructure on which she depends. If one of them starts behaving sexually towards her, it's naturally upsetting.

    Anyway, that's why women perceive a big problem with men who are commitment-phobic; who "trade in" their wives; etc. Because among men they perceive as sexual beings, it's very common.
  163. This post befuddles me. Can we please go back to discussing golf courses, white football players, and the differences between the I.Q. of a bushman and an Eskimo?

  164. @Rosie

    I suppose the influx of female trolls is sort of a positive sign, in that it indicates the dissident right has gone somewhat mainstream.
     
    On what grounds do you call us "trolls"? Is there some reason other than that we disagree with you?

    Maybe this sort of prolific, fatuous abrasiveness comes naturally. My apologies

  165. @Rosie
    L Woods,

    You clearly think women have no legitimate right to participate in this forum. Let's make a deal, you MGTOWs get out of the pro-White movement and go your own way already, and White women will gladly leave you to it.

    Manosphere types have been trying to advance the idea that there is such a thing as men's interests, and that these are identical with White interests, and this is untrue and very damaging to our already-divided people.

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.

    No, the real conflict of interests is between women and women.

    I’m a guy, but I grew up in a family full of women. Nothing but drama drama drama all through my youth. Even now, in my thirties, I still get caught in the crossfire between my mother and my aunt.

    We’re supposed to be having a kind of a family reunion at a restaurant tomorrow. We were supposed to have it back in December, but my aunt canceled at the last minute. We rescheduled; she canceled again, at the last minute. We rescheduled a third time; she canceled a third time, at the last minute. We rescheduled a fourth time; I had a dental emergency and had to postpone it.

    In the interim, my aunt decided that she didn’t want to eat at the restaurant where my mother wanted to go. I suggested another restaurant; she agreed to it.

    We’re supposed to be meeting tomorrow. A few minutes ago, I got a text message telling me, in effect, “I’m changing the plans. We’re eating at another restaurant.” She didn’t *ask* if we could eat at another restaurant; she *told* me that we were going to be eating there. She unilaterally made the decision. Now my mother is on the warpath, going on and on and on about how her sister is such a control freak.

    All my mother talks about is the stuff that happened when they were kids. Supposedly my aunt used to lie to my grandparents to get my mother in trouble. My sixtysomething mother goes on and on and on about trivial things that happened back in the 1960s. I wasn’t there; I don’t know what happened; I don’t care what happened; my mother doesn’t care that I don’t care, and keeps going on and on and on about it. Listening to her whine makes me want to cut my ears off.

    For her part, my aunt is always finding fault with my mother (and me, for that matter). She’s always telling us why we’re wrong. She does everything better than anyone and everyone. She always knows best; she never hesitates to tell us so.

    My mother blows up at my aunt when the latter tries to tell the former why she’s always right and everyone else is always wrong. I just sit there with a strained smile on my face, waiting for the noise to stop.

    My aunt has a daughter. I won’t even get started on my mother’s “thing” against my cousin.

    This is nothing new. Some years ago, we were going to have a family dinner at my grandmother’s house. My grandmother was going to make meatloaf. My mother was looking forward to the meatloaf. Then my aunt asked my grandmother to make roast beef. My mother went ballistic. My mother asked my grandmother to make meatloaf, but my grandmother said that she had already made the arrangements for roast beef. My mother was furious with my aunt for trying to control the situation, and angry at my grandmother for siding with my aunt. We ended up having roast beef, and my mother ended up spitting poison at my aunt all night long.

    My grandmother has Alzheimer’s now. There’s a whole big “thing” between my mother and my aunt over my grandmother’s care. (My uncle is also involved.) I won’t even get into that.

    This type of stuff has been going on as long as I’ve been alive. It’s very tedious.

    I’m an only child, so my mother is always calling me, trying to drag me into her affairs. I live near her, so it’s easy for her to guilt-trip me into coming over to handle such-and-such a manufactured crisis. (I’m the one who makes sure that her grass gets cut and that her bills get paid. She has a P.O. Box that she often guilt-trips me into checking.)

    I’m not a MGTOW, but I can see why so many men decide that they don’t women in their lives.

    • Replies: @Alden
    My sister sounds like a combination of your mother and aunt.

    Since her nearest relatives are about 1,20o miles away, she manufactures endless fights with her neighbors that she spends hours telling me all about on the phone.

    She is also involved in civic activities in her town more for the purpose of getting into fights and drama than the ostensible purpose of pooper scooper law, getting a stop sign, parking regs whatever.
    Her kids go to private schools and she’s taken the older one out of 3 schools and the kid is 12. She and the youngest were asked to leave a coop nursery school after 2 weeks.

    We all have our burdens.
  166. @Rosie
    L Woods,

    You clearly think women have no legitimate right to participate in this forum. Let's make a deal, you MGTOWs get out of the pro-White movement and go your own way already, and White women will gladly leave you to it.

    Manosphere types have been trying to advance the idea that there is such a thing as men's interests, and that these are identical with White interests, and this is untrue and very damaging to our already-divided people.

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.

    Eternal feminist yammering, but without minorities in the background — there’s a cause worth fighting for. All the same, those being the terms, I think I’ll keep my subsidized healthcare and eventual defined government pension.

  167. @Joe862
    I think you are very right about this. Women are the ones who have all the power when they're in their twenties. They don't want to marry until that power is gone. They want to screw around as long as possible and then marry some stable guy for kids and family. This has been going on for a long time and a lot of young men have realized that they have no chance as all the women go for 20% of men while the rest get little to nothing. Young men in many cases recognize that the payoff for being responsible and working hard isn't until they're in their mid to late thirties. This is so far off that it isn't a motivator and many of them haven't put the effort into establishing themselves with education and careers.

    It’s not really a motivator to speak of at all. How is marrying some used up 39.5 year old with a mocha colored kid in tow any kind of reward for surrendering your youth to corporate America?

    • Replies: @Alden
    I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my teenage daughters.

    Be careful. Some of the comments will attract law enforcement looking for men interested in statuary rape.
  168. @J.Ross
    OT Kelly in the corner: "DIE-versity."
    A U.S. Navy officer pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty Tuesday in the collision of a U.S. Navy destroyer that killed seven sailors last year.
    >Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock was sentenced to receive half-pay for three months.

    >She was the officer of the deck at the time of the collision.

    >Prosecutors laid blame at Coppock’s feet, saying she “chose to be blind,” never sought help from the information center, did not respond properly when she saw the Crystal on the radar 12 nautical miles from the ship and lost situational awareness. She failed to sound blasts alerting the Crystal or attempt to contact it, nor did she alert the commanding officer
    >When it became clear that impact was inevitable, she “failed to give the crew notice, a chance to get out of their racks, a chance to brace themselves.”

    >After the collision, a test taken by a control group of officers on board showed that the average score on “rules of the road” at sea was 59 percent
    https://www.stripes.com/fitzgerald-officer-of-the-deck-pleads-guilty-at-court-martial-1.525888

    Welfare queens think they can navigate ships and take other people's lives on their hands.
    The US Navy and its diversity hires should not be allowed to sail anywhere near commercial shipping lanes from now on.

    from this thread:
    http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/171252286
    First reaction: "women can't drive a car and someone let her pilot a destroyer?"
    I knew female officers who weren't a dangerous bad joke but they had this respect and awareness that they were not literally interchangeable with men.

    The presence of women outside of sequestered support roles has wrecked military esprit de corps, irrespective of their individual competence (which is unremarkable at best).

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    One of the things that happens is, everything becomes political, and mountains must be moved so they never appear to be screwing up. The men around a woman are carrying her. In one case I know of, women who fell out of a hike would be taken to ride in a humvee -- and their pack and weapon would then be transferred some some guy already sweating under his own! How do you not come out of that resenting them? And this is a purely physical thing. That same woman might be highly competant in administrative matters. It's unreasonable to demand that she hump like a man.
  169. @Rosie

    This still isn’t going to result in the beta dream of a virgin bride for every man though.
     
    At least not till he's thirty-something. Encouraging women to sell themselves to the highest bidder won't work out well for young men.

    The bottom 80% of them have nothing to lose under the current paradigm anyway. At least this provides some sort of hope.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The bottom 80% of them have nothing to lose under the current paradigm anyway. At least this provides some sort of hope.
     
    Whence the 80% figure?
  170. @Autochthon
    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang? I've always wondered. I've been driving motorcycles since I was nine years old, but I've never once, to my knowledge, encountered a motorcycle gang – and I've lived all over the place, and in many places with tons of crime and seedy stuff. Oh, I expect I've encountered a member of a motorcycle gang and not known it – some cat at a bar with a hog out front was in the Hell's Angels; some group riding together past me on the freeway were in a gang, or whatever. But where's the crime? Where are the news reports about even the aftermath? When's the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days? A quick look into the Pagan's unearths some kind of raid on a guy's house for weapons the government didn't want him to have (maybe he was a felon?) in 2009. That was almost ten years ago, and it doesn't seem especially motorcyle-y, anyway. Are motorcycle gangs just more subtle now? Are the motorcycles no longer integral to their shenanigans? They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus? And if so, are they really a motorcycle gang? I mean, I bet lots of groups of drug-dealers or members of the Crips or MS-13 drive drugs around in so-called sport-utility vehicles or pickup trucks (they're popular!), but we don't speak about the the Crips as an "SUV Gang." What gives? I realise these musings are inane, but your remarks genuinely prompted me to wonder, in a profound, Seinfeld-ian way: "Motorcycle gangs – what's the deal?!" Does anyone know more about this topic?

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?

    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do

    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?

    That and they belong to a “motorcycle club” as a legal front entity. It’s also part of the “uniform,” same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they’re genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I’m guessing there’s also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don’t do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Thank you; these data are helpful. (Can there be a "thank you" option for concise gratitude to those who answer one's thoughts or are otherwise helpful? It's not quite agreement, disagreement, or laughter, but I bet a lot of us would use it. Still, maybe such options would then just procreate like the free Gatorade in Clerks.)

    I mostly understood that business in Waco to have been primarily about the police wanting to play at being the marines and thus killing a lot of people who may very well have been horrible people, but who at the time mostly seemed to be assembled for essentially legitimate reasons, at most raising a little Hell until the Man decided to go full retard, Ruby Ridge style. I could be wrong; I've never investigated it much (I demur about Wikipedia as a source of information reagrding anything so liable to bias.)

    I guess I want the motorcycles to be more integral to the crime if we are going to keep going on about "motorcycle gangs.". I don't think these idiots should be called "motorcycle gangs" if what you say is true, any more than the Bloods are "bandana gangs" or Ms-13 are a "tattoo gang." It just seems the motorcycles are entirely incidental and so the concept maligns motorcyclists in the mind of the public for no apparent reason, or confuses people like me who just don't understand how motorcycles are especially useful or used in crime outside The Place Beyond the Pines . (I abhor censorship, but I vehemently defend the benefits of using language precisely.)

    Again, thank you.

    , @Alden
    Motorcycle gangs owned most of the massage parlors in San Francisco until the Chinese drove them out as part of the conquest of San Francisco.
    , @Anonymous
    Motorcycle clubs of the one percenter, three piece patch type have been around in their present form since about the end of WWII and there is an elaborate set of medieval style customs, courtesies and protocols involved, enforced by the credible threat of violence on all sides. All the major clubs require you to own and regularly ride a large displacement heavy motorcycle-in the US that means a Harley Davidson in practice. (In the US, some clubs' charters specify it has to be a H-D, but officially a prewar or 1950s Indian or other US made heavy bike would theoretically be ok with some. However, antique bikes break down all the time and a late model HD is the only rule meeting bike that would keep up. Evan Shovelheads today are rare as a member's primary bike. While antique American bike marques are respected, the modern Polaris made Victorys and Indians, eh, not so much.) Participation in runs and club rides is mandatory. Many members work on their own bikes and rebuild and customize them. In that respect they are motorcycle clubs.


    What gets them into trouble is not the motorcycle per se in most cases. The clubs as clubs do not deal drugs, run prostitution and gambling rings, sell illegal firearms and stolen merchandise, etc, but in most some of the members do. They do get in fights with other clubs and occasionally beat up or kill individuals that get in trouble with them for perceived disrespect or aggression.

    Motorcyclists who want to ride as a club but not be "outlaw bikers" can be in what are called "riding clubs", as opposed to "motorcycle clubs". These differentiate themselves by several changes in style and substance and are mostly left alone by the MCs so long as they do so.
    , @Steve Sailer
    At the other end of the spectrum are the middle aged married couples who ride around on Honda Golden Eagles.
  171. @L Woods
    The presence of women outside of sequestered support roles has wrecked military esprit de corps, irrespective of their individual competence (which is unremarkable at best).

    One of the things that happens is, everything becomes political, and mountains must be moved so they never appear to be screwing up. The men around a woman are carrying her. In one case I know of, women who fell out of a hike would be taken to ride in a humvee — and their pack and weapon would then be transferred some some guy already sweating under his own! How do you not come out of that resenting them? And this is a purely physical thing. That same woman might be highly competant in administrative matters. It’s unreasonable to demand that she hump like a man.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    How do you not come out of that resenting them?
     
    This is very understandable, but there is no point resenting all women. I'm not in the military asking anyone to carry my pack.
  172. @Rickroller
    Bunuel is a great filmmaker, but I've never gotten Belle du Jour's appeal, particularly that awful clam of an ending.

    … I was actually talking about the blogger, who is an objectively better writer than Cody. But Catherine Deneuve walking through a dark hallway in black mesh on her way to pretend to be dead is one of the all-time great images of cinema.

  173. @Rosie
    For posterity:

    mikepencetheincel• 6d
    The genetic cleansing is coming.

    5
    hisayo92 • 6d
    When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

    5
     

    Rosie, dear, I hate to explain this to you, but the data do indeed impugn women far more than men. (I don’t know what an incel is or what it’s point of view may be, but I get the impression from your tone and context you reckon an incel is a male and that these data somehow exhort us to hear you roar).

    I’ve written abut the topic a few times around here and there are reams of data easily available. The discussion you cite is only a recent reiteration:

    As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible eighty per cent of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. [Some sixty per cent of males primarily write to the most desirable thirty per cent of all females. – Autochthon] But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.

    It’s a mildly interesting read if you are an armchair sociobiologist like so many of us here are. The author went on to be puzzled at why ugly females don’t respond to extremely handsome men, surmising that the ugly females lack self-esteem.

    I posit that, instead, what really goes on is that such women are aware, from bitter and cruel experience, that messages to them from handsome dudes wind up being mean jokes, bots, scams from Nigerian princes after their money, or even so-called Chads out for a night of what we used to call hogging when I was in the navy: the urge to seal the deal being strong for whatever reason (just came into port, a penchant for activities the wife won’t indulge, emerging from prolonged depression following a break-up, plain old lazy – whatever!), one purposely pursues an ugly or obese woman knowing this dramatically increases one’s chances of successfully obtaining sex, but of course with no intention whatsoever of so much as calling the woman again after the tryst.

    I’ll warrant in a world of Tinder those unfortunate, unattractive women who want something more meaningful than a one-night stand have long since become hip to the scam and so avoid what appears too good to be true, knowing it ain’t. Hell, I’m not Quasimodo but I ain’t Ryan Gosling; when I was single and used such services I would regularly get messages from strikingly gorgeous women I knew good and well were out of my league. Bots, every single one of ’em.

    In fact, bots may well best explain everything, including the disingenuous mugging by the writer that the homely gals just need higher self-esteem. If the bots are from advertisers and SEO hacks who, for all we know, pay OK Cupid for access to the platform so they (the bots’ managers) can drive clicks to their site (“I don’t use OKCupid a lot, but I saw your photo and just had to write. Please get back to me at http://www.youreadamnedfool.com, baby!”) … well, that would explain Ok Cupid’s failure to mention the most obvious explanation: people know water seeks its own level.

    Online dating needs to go away. It is socially destructive in the same way more general platforms like Friendface, etc. are. I know it has brought together many happy people, but I suggest it causes many more people enduring harm in its facilitation of hook-up culture, shallow over-emphasis on photogenic appearances, and what psychologists call choice-addiction.

  174. @Rickroller
    Bunuel is a great filmmaker, but I've never gotten Belle du Jour's appeal, particularly that awful clam of an ending.

    Belle was just respectable porn.

    It’s a common porn genre, the prostitute who loves her work. Wasn’t Fanny Hill about a proatitute who enjoyed her work? Didn’t the ancient Romans claim that some of the Roman empresses spent the night in brothels taking on all comers for free?

    The ending was just to intellectualize porn; was it a fantasy? Do women really want gangsters instead of nice Drs?

    Did you see Christiania? Denueve and her pervert guardian? Too bad Denueve got hooked up with Buenuel. Can’t stand his pervy nasty movies.

  175. @L Woods
    The bottom 80% of them have nothing to lose under the current paradigm anyway. At least this provides some sort of hope.

    The bottom 80% of them have nothing to lose under the current paradigm anyway. At least this provides some sort of hope.

    Whence the 80% figure?

  176. @Flip
    That's uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I've seen have been initiated by the wife.

    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.
     
    Math isn't my strong suit, but doesn't that mean that ~30% of divorces are initiated by men, leaving dependent women in a very vulnerable economic position?

    https://www.wealthysinglemommy.com/sahms-get-rude-awakening-husbands-judges-divorce/
    , @stillCARealist
    What I've read is that women initiate 2/3 of all divorces, but that prior to the no-fault divorce era, they initiated closer to 100% of divorces. so what's changed is that men sometimes start the process now whereas they wouldn't dare in the old days.
  177. @neutral

    Seems as though your ideal mother is a 17 year old black or Hispanic on welfare because that’s the only way she can support the baby unless she finds a 40 year old man.
     
    Is there any reason why a white woman cannot also live on welfare?

    Most White women on welfare had their kids in their 20s and get off welfare after a few years.

    But to the 9o year old male virgins endlessly ranting that White women should have babies at 2o, somebody has to support those babies and their mothers, either a husband, welfare or even a job “ stolen” from a man.

    Some of these guys don’t seem to know that it takes a man and a woman to conceive a child. Instead of endless
    “Women should have children”. How about the realistic men and women should have children.

  178. @Daniel Chieh
    People's brains never stop "developing" until close to death due to the very nature of neurogenesis. This has as much to do with fertility as the maturation of skin cells do, which is to say, nothing at all.

    Chromosomal anomalities increase in age for women(and men, to a lesser degree):

    https://33ml8lnxhxs2znps8rc102vb-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Genetic-abnormalities.jpg

    Assuming even the wild nonsequitor of infant brain size had anything to do with this, female height and size development pretty much ends by 15. The medical solutions for births for breach issues, which is basically the caesarean, is far more realistic(and less costly) than treatment for genetic damage which lays somewhere between impossible and prohibitive expensive/experimental.

    Women can wait a few precious years to ride out puberty before having children, at negligible risk to their babies’ cognitive ability. The various medical risks associated with teen pregnancy for mother and child are a feature, not a bug. There is even evidence that teen pregnancy has long-term adverse health effects to the mother (developmental, not social factors). Menarche does not mean that your body is ready soon after to have children. Teen pregnancy is a disruption of puberty, which is a transitional biological stage meant to prepare your body to have babies. And while age of sexual maturity differs by race, 15 as an estimated cap for development is too young for the West (height, maybe, but that’s very different).

    Also, the case for teen pregnancy throughout history is overstated. Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty. Most “regular” women in antiquity and medieval times married and started having children at 22-25. In ancient Greece, wealthy or aristocratic girls were married off young and sent to live in their husband’s home, but they delayed having children until 19-20. The medieval aristocratic classes pushed marriage and motherhood on teenage girls. It had so many sad outcomes that despite the sacrament of marriage and procreation, some churches tried to proscribe rules against it.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty.
     
    I have pointed out before that even teenage boys intuit that teen girls are too young for pregnancy. They prefer women in their twenties.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8890497

    There's a reason there is a junior section in the department stores. Teens' hips are narrower than grown women's, but broader than little girls' hips.

    And yes, above average head circumference is associated with higher risk for c-section.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002937817328041
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Eh. I think my essential point was really a few:

    1) The notion that the entire human body reaches a specific plateau at a specific time is basically silly and if anything, increased nutrition(and probably less "natural" influences such as hormones in food) has decreased the age of sexual maturity since history. Furthermore, the idea that it doesn't precede mental development assumes a lot of the human body, which really is hardly some sort of precise timekeeping machine when it comes to bursts of hormones, but is and should be seen as a kind of "best effort." That's how evolution works: even the brain is a version of that, thus the frequency of optical illusions that appear real.

    2) Adolescence is real, but it was significantly more developed as a vision in the 19th century in part due to its utility for marketing. As a general rule, if a stage in biology doesn't exist in primates, it isn't going to magically manifest in humans. Sophocles' plays certainly has maidens, but how old is Antigone? She's between twelve to fifteen, and noble girls her age typically betrothed before menarche. I'm not one to argue that it is ideal or anything, but its pretty evident that the entire notion of adolescence was far less visualized for girls in history.

    3) If there's one certain thing about humanity, it is that they are sure to disappoint. If there is a second certain thing about humanity, they will disappoint in the form of procrastination. Your point about delayed childbirth is indeed true but that's the thing: this was happening while Dante and Shakesphere were waxing poetic about what we would consider as barely pubescent girls(or even prepublescent: Dante's Beatrice, though made a bit less creepy due to their close age). Of course, in practice they would be betrothed rather than married and childbirth hardly happened immediately; but if wish to aim for any reasonable fertility, it does seem like its best to try to idealize younger marriages and realize that in practice, the inevitability of procrastination will see older marriages and childbirth.
  179. @Daniel Chieh

    Ten kids are easier than two. Because the older ones do your chores while the middle ones take care of the younger ones.

     

    This is what I found as well historically(and in my immediate family: my wife, the youngest of 9 children, said that her siblings raised her). However, it should be added that historically the expanded(and immediate) family assisted even from the first, so the overall burden of work was already spread out.

    Large families do create some unusual attitudes in my experience, including the very unmodern idea that "losing" a few kids to misparenting or God's will is acceptable. Despite what some here seem to believe, crowding doesn't seem to be what prevents children(the amount of crowding in Quebecois rural families must be seen to be believed, with three generations under one roof at times); it really is the combination of what we call modernity which is acid to TFR.

    This is just anecdotal, but I’ve found that older children of big families who had to do most of the housework ended up deeply resenting the parents and leaving home as soon as possible.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "This is just anecdotal, but I’ve found that older children of big families who had to do most of the housework ended up deeply resenting the parents and leaving home as soon as possible."

    My grandmother was the eldest of thirteen children in her family. She had to help raise some of her siblings (she left home and married before the last few were born). As a result, she was very disengaged with her own children. The housekeeper mostly raised my father. It was obvious to me even when I was young that my father was badly damaged by maternal neglect. Not surprisingly, he was very disengaged with his own children when it came to providing stability, love and guidance. He was always able to engage in anger. Misery is multigenerational.
  180. @snorlax

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?
     
    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do
     
    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?
     
    That and they belong to a "motorcycle club" as a legal front entity. It's also part of the "uniform," same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they're genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I'm guessing there's also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don't do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.

    Thank you; these data are helpful. (Can there be a “thank you” option for concise gratitude to those who answer one’s thoughts or are otherwise helpful? It’s not quite agreement, disagreement, or laughter, but I bet a lot of us would use it. Still, maybe such options would then just procreate like the free Gatorade in Clerks.)

    I mostly understood that business in Waco to have been primarily about the police wanting to play at being the marines and thus killing a lot of people who may very well have been horrible people, but who at the time mostly seemed to be assembled for essentially legitimate reasons, at most raising a little Hell until the Man decided to go full retard, Ruby Ridge style. I could be wrong; I’ve never investigated it much (I demur about Wikipedia as a source of information reagrding anything so liable to bias.)

    I guess I want the motorcycles to be more integral to the crime if we are going to keep going on about “motorcycle gangs.”. I don’t think these idiots should be called “motorcycle gangs” if what you say is true, any more than the Bloods are “bandana gangs” or Ms-13 are a “tattoo gang.” It just seems the motorcycles are entirely incidental and so the concept maligns motorcyclists in the mind of the public for no apparent reason, or confuses people like me who just don’t understand how motorcycles are especially useful or used in crime outside The Place Beyond the Pines . (I abhor censorship, but I vehemently defend the benefits of using language precisely.)

    Again, thank you.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Thank you; these data are helpful. (Can there be a “thank you” option for concise gratitude to those who answer one’s thoughts or are otherwise helpfI'll?)
     
    Good idea.
  181. @Daniel Chieh
    Part of it, potentially, but it plummeted to 1.4 after the Quiet Revolution and incentives as high as $8k per child were not enough to reverse it. Birth control alone cannot explain the divergence(other countries have attempted birth control bans but it does not reverse TFR to that extent).

    After WW2 Western European socialist governments instituted child benefit, what we call child welfare for everyone.

    There were 3 objectives

    1. Get married women out of the low level workplace so there would be full employment for working class men. 2

    2This would prevent the working class men from going communist

    3 keep working class wages low while increasing working class family incomes via the child benefit.

    4 replace the population losses caused by low birth rates during the depression and losses during the war.

    It didn’t work. Middle and upper class economic conservatives huffed and puffed that it would only encourage the lower classes to have lots of children to get the benefit. Lifestyle conservatives though it would encourage big happy families

    Despite all the child benefit the birth rate for the natives went down every decade.

    The only people taking advantage seem to be Muslims and Africans in Britain.

  182. @snorlax

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?
     
    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do
     
    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?
     
    That and they belong to a "motorcycle club" as a legal front entity. It's also part of the "uniform," same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they're genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I'm guessing there's also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don't do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.

    Motorcycle gangs owned most of the massage parlors in San Francisco until the Chinese drove them out as part of the conquest of San Francisco.

  183. @L Woods
    It's not really a motivator to speak of at all. How is marrying some used up 39.5 year old with a mocha colored kid in tow any kind of reward for surrendering your youth to corporate America?

    I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my teenage daughters.

    Be careful. Some of the comments will attract law enforcement looking for men interested in statuary rape.

    • LOL: L Woods
    • Replies: @L Woods
    Uh oh, another internet tough guy suburbadad. Couldn't prevent daddy's little girl from getting passed around by the starting line up, but at least he can swing his dick around at imaginary "statuary rapists."
    , @27 year old
    Hello fellow teen pregnancy enthusiasts...
  184. @Alden
    I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my teenage daughters.

    Be careful. Some of the comments will attract law enforcement looking for men interested in statuary rape.

    Uh oh, another internet tough guy suburbadad. Couldn’t prevent daddy’s little girl from getting passed around by the starting line up, but at least he can swing his dick around at imaginary “statuary rapists.”

  185. @Stan Adams

    The real conflict of interests is not between men and women, but rather men and women who value righteous living on the one hand, and degenerates on the other.
     
    No, the real conflict of interests is between women and women.

    I'm a guy, but I grew up in a family full of women. Nothing but drama drama drama all through my youth. Even now, in my thirties, I still get caught in the crossfire between my mother and my aunt.

    We're supposed to be having a kind of a family reunion at a restaurant tomorrow. We were supposed to have it back in December, but my aunt canceled at the last minute. We rescheduled; she canceled again, at the last minute. We rescheduled a third time; she canceled a third time, at the last minute. We rescheduled a fourth time; I had a dental emergency and had to postpone it.

    In the interim, my aunt decided that she didn't want to eat at the restaurant where my mother wanted to go. I suggested another restaurant; she agreed to it.

    We're supposed to be meeting tomorrow. A few minutes ago, I got a text message telling me, in effect, "I'm changing the plans. We're eating at another restaurant." She didn't *ask* if we could eat at another restaurant; she *told* me that we were going to be eating there. She unilaterally made the decision. Now my mother is on the warpath, going on and on and on about how her sister is such a control freak.

    All my mother talks about is the stuff that happened when they were kids. Supposedly my aunt used to lie to my grandparents to get my mother in trouble. My sixtysomething mother goes on and on and on about trivial things that happened back in the 1960s. I wasn't there; I don't know what happened; I don't care what happened; my mother doesn't care that I don't care, and keeps going on and on and on about it. Listening to her whine makes me want to cut my ears off.

    For her part, my aunt is always finding fault with my mother (and me, for that matter). She's always telling us why we're wrong. She does everything better than anyone and everyone. She always knows best; she never hesitates to tell us so.

    My mother blows up at my aunt when the latter tries to tell the former why she's always right and everyone else is always wrong. I just sit there with a strained smile on my face, waiting for the noise to stop.

    My aunt has a daughter. I won't even get started on my mother's "thing" against my cousin.

    This is nothing new. Some years ago, we were going to have a family dinner at my grandmother's house. My grandmother was going to make meatloaf. My mother was looking forward to the meatloaf. Then my aunt asked my grandmother to make roast beef. My mother went ballistic. My mother asked my grandmother to make meatloaf, but my grandmother said that she had already made the arrangements for roast beef. My mother was furious with my aunt for trying to control the situation, and angry at my grandmother for siding with my aunt. We ended up having roast beef, and my mother ended up spitting poison at my aunt all night long.

    My grandmother has Alzheimer's now. There's a whole big "thing" between my mother and my aunt over my grandmother's care. (My uncle is also involved.) I won't even get into that.

    This type of stuff has been going on as long as I've been alive. It's very tedious.

    I'm an only child, so my mother is always calling me, trying to drag me into her affairs. I live near her, so it's easy for her to guilt-trip me into coming over to handle such-and-such a manufactured crisis. (I'm the one who makes sure that her grass gets cut and that her bills get paid. She has a P.O. Box that she often guilt-trips me into checking.)

    I'm not a MGTOW, but I can see why so many men decide that they don't women in their lives.

    My sister sounds like a combination of your mother and aunt.

    Since her nearest relatives are about 1,20o miles away, she manufactures endless fights with her neighbors that she spends hours telling me all about on the phone.

    She is also involved in civic activities in her town more for the purpose of getting into fights and drama than the ostensible purpose of pooper scooper law, getting a stop sign, parking regs whatever.
    Her kids go to private schools and she’s taken the older one out of 3 schools and the kid is 12. She and the youngest were asked to leave a coop nursery school after 2 weeks.

    We all have our burdens.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    On the plus side, my aunt canceled yet again today, so my Saturday afternoon is free.

    Flakiness, thy name is woman!
  186. @Autochthon
    Young Adult is indeed a masterpiece, especially insightful about writing as an unglamorous business and and craft which is all about toiling over a computer, editing with an eye for what can sell (vs. the silly idea into is about being touched with a divine gift and magically producing deep art – it never has been; not even for Shakespeare and Dickens!).

    I've wondered how much of that film had informal or uncredited input from Oswalt, who is a brilliant and under appreciated screenwriter. See, for instance, his understanding that entertainment is a business much more than an artsy-fartsy calling: "Sellout.

    Very few, if any, of us are old enough to have been contemporaries of people like Dickens or Shakespeare.

    Imagine if the famous billionaire writers of our day were that talented – that would be the opposite of silly (i.e., if billionaires like Stephen King and Rowling and the two or three others at that financial level were anywhere as good as Dickens and Shakespeare, it would be the opposite of silly to think they were divinely gifted).

    I guess it is hard to imagine what it was like speaking the same language at the same time as someone like Shakespeare or Dickens. I mean, I like the books of Agatha Christie and of poor old Hemingway, probably the most famous and prestigious English-language “writers” whose lives overlapped mine (not the best, for the record, but in each case very good) , but it is hardly their fault that they were famous writers who were not divinely gifted.

    There are a few old celebrities, and some who are still not all that old – Phil Collins, Clarence Thomas, Olivia DeHavilland, Herman Wouk – whose grandparents were (like mine, almost) young happy people in Dickensian times. Many people famously do not respect Dickens – Waugh, Dearieme, Wodehouse: and even Mother Theresa never talked much about the Christmas Carol – but let’s be honest, if we were alive back then and waited for every installment of every new Dickens novel to come out, fresh off the griddle, we would have been thrilled, and would have wondered – where does such inspiration come from? We are just a generation or two to late to know, maybe there are similar writers who will be well known years from now who will fill the bill. With divine help, natch.

  187. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    They’re like the Hell’s Angels and the Pagan’s that way. (The apostrophe in “Pagan’s” is how they spell it. Don’t ask why.)

    And, ironically, "Hells Angels" doesn't take an apostrophe. At least not the way they like it, and I wouldn't argue grammar with a biker.

    Regarding the UPS story: hilarious. Black people come up with the craziest scams sometimes, gotta give them credit.

    HAMC is officially Hell’s Angels Motorcycle Club, but the top rocker says HELLS ANGELS.

    A club website says “Missing apostrophe? Yes we know it is missing but it is you who miss it. We don’t.”

    So I suspect that the Pagan’s put one in theirs as a deliberate provocation. Who knows?

    Probably a poor idea to argue about it or even ask them.

    • Replies: @Ivy

    Probably a poor idea to argue about it or even ask them.
     
    I knew a sergeant-at-arms in a motorcycle gang. Funny guy, watched out for his family and friends, took a road trip out of his territory, had a conflict and got killed
  188. @joeyjoejoe
    "How many children do you have?
    Please tell us about your pregnancy, child birth breast feeding or not, getting up at night did the baby have colic etc?"

    I am in the exact demographic of this movie (actually, I and my wife are a bit older-but our contemporaries are literally living this story). Obviously, I don't know the exact plot from the trailer (particular when I just watched it with the sound off-and skipped the boring parts), but the life issues and experiences in general are mine and my contemporaries. With one exception: I am the stay at home dad, and my wife is away at work. I've been a stay at home dad since the day my youngest was born (and for most of my oldest's life). I interact with the women who are living the live that Therron is living, every day (at ballet classes, picking up kids after school, playdates, and on and on and on).

    Its really not that hard. Of course, there is nothing pleasant about diapers, and whining kids. And contrary what one commenter said: its hardest when they are young, and gets easier as they get old. In fact, the young kid's life, for a parent, is a series of significant events in which life gets EASIER (ah, he can finally entertain himself for a few minutes. Ah, he can feed himself. Ah, toilet trained. Ah, he can get into the car by himself. Ah, he can buckle his own seatbelt. Ah, he can put his own shoes on. etc etc etc. Each milestone takes one more regular chore away from the parent). But you get used to it, and its just life. I've often compared changing diapers to cleaning oneself: neither are particularly pleasant. But you clean yourself every day-you do it so often, it is routine, subconscious, and not even significant. Diapers, after the 10th or 20th, really become the same thing-it takes a minute, and its over.

    In general though: the stay at home parent has the easier job (and I say that as the stay at home parent who does all the typical man tasks as well as the traditional stay at home parent tasks: I still mow the yard, maintain the garage, and do the bills, for instance). Stay at home mom's are generally pretty happy and content with the role-they are, in general, not overwhelmed by it.

    The ones that are overwhelmed by it are people who tend to get overwhelmed anyway. In other words, the strength, or personality, of the individual parent dictates their happiness, or stress level, from having kids-the act of having kids does not. Most houses, for instance, don't look like that messy house-they are cleaner. The ones that are as messy as the house in the movie are that way because the mother can't handle the responsiblity of cleaning the house (and I have seen, and regularly see it).

    The one difficulty of being a stay at home parent (And this is particularly true of a stay at home dad) is social isolation-a lack of adult interaction. There is still, in every community in the country, a society of stay at home mothers (usually), living the same life that their grandmothers did in 1955. But instead of being neighbors with each other (when they could count on fellow travellers next door or just down the street), they are scattered, isolated, throughout the city-and meet each other waiting at swim lessons, at the park playground, and at the zoo. So that social group is still there-its just made up of isolated individuals having to seek each other out from across town rather than across the street. And since that social group is more spread out, it is inconvenient-and thus the general social isolation.

    If the old ethic still existed, in which women generally stayed at home with their kids (and most mothers were at home), women would have it made. In fact, I have often thought that if it were reversed-if the ethic was of dads being at home, and I was surrounded by my neighboring men and our kids all day, it would be a paradise. My wife and I both kind of suffer socially: she's in a male dominated field, and I'm with my young kids all day. Neither of us have much in common with our contemporaries-I can't, and have no interest in, talking about work with men, and she isn't living the kid activity life like the women. But spending the day with your contemporaries, with frankly limited responsibilities (but general oversight duties and occasional crisis management), would really be nice-basically a relaxing Saturday every day.

    Women really did have it all in 1955.


    joe

    I agree with most of what you say here, except this:

    The ones that are as messy as the house in the movie are that way because the mother can’t handle the responsiblity of cleaning the house (and I have seen, and regularly see it).

    What often happens is that kids and husbands won’t pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn’t have time to clean. You can’t vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she’s out of time before it’s time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done.

    • Replies: @Joe862
    The problem is that there is way too much stuff and the woman is the reason for that. Women are also incredibly inefficient. They make everything take a thousand times longer than it needs to. If a man were doing it he'd get frustrated with the amount of time wasted and he'd figure out how to make it a lot less time consuming.

    If men were doing the childcare and housework more often they'd all figure out how to make it easier and then they'd get together and figure out how to have a blast with the kids through various activities. Then women would decide that men have it better than women and the ladies would demand to be allowed to stay home with the kids to escape the terrible oppression of the corporate world.
    , @Brutusale
    Can't vacuum until the toys are picked up? Vacuuming took place on my mother's schedule, not her sons'. She gave the order ONCE.

    That sound you hear? The vacuum sucking up Legos.
  189. @Autochthon
    Thank you; these data are helpful. (Can there be a "thank you" option for concise gratitude to those who answer one's thoughts or are otherwise helpful? It's not quite agreement, disagreement, or laughter, but I bet a lot of us would use it. Still, maybe such options would then just procreate like the free Gatorade in Clerks.)

    I mostly understood that business in Waco to have been primarily about the police wanting to play at being the marines and thus killing a lot of people who may very well have been horrible people, but who at the time mostly seemed to be assembled for essentially legitimate reasons, at most raising a little Hell until the Man decided to go full retard, Ruby Ridge style. I could be wrong; I've never investigated it much (I demur about Wikipedia as a source of information reagrding anything so liable to bias.)

    I guess I want the motorcycles to be more integral to the crime if we are going to keep going on about "motorcycle gangs.". I don't think these idiots should be called "motorcycle gangs" if what you say is true, any more than the Bloods are "bandana gangs" or Ms-13 are a "tattoo gang." It just seems the motorcycles are entirely incidental and so the concept maligns motorcyclists in the mind of the public for no apparent reason, or confuses people like me who just don't understand how motorcycles are especially useful or used in crime outside The Place Beyond the Pines . (I abhor censorship, but I vehemently defend the benefits of using language precisely.)

    Again, thank you.

    Thank you; these data are helpful. (Can there be a “thank you” option for concise gratitude to those who answer one’s thoughts or are otherwise helpfI’ll?)

    Good idea.

  190. @Rosie

    I can see where this thread is going. Endless celibate childless men who don’t seem to know that it takes 2 to make a baby.
     
    They have it all worked out. When you're 15, you marry a dirty old man three times your age and start having babies after a brief honeymoon period.

    I never understood the “dirty old man” insult. I suppose it’s like calling someone a racist or a commie.

    On second thought it does actually mean something. It’s a female form of shaming (men never use the term except as a compliment). Women use shame because nature denied them strength. And they’re good at it.

    The shaming here is intended to keep men in line as slaves to their female owners rather than enjoying themselves for their own sake. Matters sex/brood-related have stronger valence than lesser concerns but these insults are tailored toward every sort of man who fails to play the part that women expect of him. Whether it’s the deadbeat dad or the manchild non-dad there seems to be a female insult perfectly tailored to all those not laboring under the whip.

    Schoepenhauer (and Shakespeare and the holy bible) seem to have been on to something.

    Is there anything more pathetic than a man permanently attatched to a woman?

    Myself? Perhaps.

    I have no dependents and no white-whiskered woman to call me own but I do love children and f***ing too. Lacking the marital albatross I miss out on those.

    As I see from my friends and family, fatherhood is a joy. Not just when some survey tester asks you if you have children and then “over all how satisfied are you with your life”, but daily. What man doesn’t love the responsibility of putting food on his family and of looking after those food behatted little ones as they be-hat each other with red spaghetti sauce. Fatherhood is just a load of fun.

    And the daily boning with ready, willing and able still-hot and entrancing wives is of course known to all.

    Plus, I will die alone. I have never seen any man happier to die than a married one. Besides, no month of one’s life is more important than the final one.

    Not to mention the fact that I am all alone. How I long for those days when I wasn’t alone! Never free to come and do and say and be as I will without answering to anyone! How I long for those meaningful and interesting conversations, the freedom that comes from having a veto over my plans and the pleasantness of having another person always around.

    And the undertow of meaning that can only be provided in knowing that you are of service to others (women or children or kings or gods) is as denied me as the knowledge that some diluted frankenstein version of my superific genes will continue to exist after…HA HA! Sorry, I can’t keep a straight face anymore. 🙂

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.

    Admit however your jealousy.

    Escaping the trap evolution set for us all (man and spider alike) is almost always wise for women too. Motherhood, both with small children and adult ones is usually less satisfying than advertised.

    And, unlike everyone here save the ghost of Henry Harpending, I can speak to the lives of men and women in non-western societies as well. In the middle east anyway. Millionaire marrieds in Dubai as much as mud-dwelling Arabs on the Syrian border are pretty much in agreement that marriage sucks and that parenthood is a chore.

    Happy oh so happy mothers day m’ladies!

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.
     
    I'll see you in hell. I expect I'll wind up there for having a smart mouth.
    , @Alden
    I personally find middle aged and older men without women endlessly speculating about the sexual availability and fertility of older teens and young women just plain weird and perverted.


    I know 12to 35 year old women are much more attractive than 40 to 60 year old women, no matter how thin and well dressed and hairstyles and face lifted the older women are.

    But the endless posts about young women seem just perverted and weird.
    , especially the fertility speculation.

    The worst is “ young White women should have babies starting at 20”

    I’ve never heard opinions like that from any men I’ve ever known. Almost all men I’ve ever known are interested in their own sex life than the sex life of the rest of the world
    Many of the comments are weird, especially all these babies who are just supposed to be “ concieved without man”
    .
  191. @Autochthon
    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang? I've always wondered. I've been driving motorcycles since I was nine years old, but I've never once, to my knowledge, encountered a motorcycle gang – and I've lived all over the place, and in many places with tons of crime and seedy stuff. Oh, I expect I've encountered a member of a motorcycle gang and not known it – some cat at a bar with a hog out front was in the Hell's Angels; some group riding together past me on the freeway were in a gang, or whatever. But where's the crime? Where are the news reports about even the aftermath? When's the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days? A quick look into the Pagan's unearths some kind of raid on a guy's house for weapons the government didn't want him to have (maybe he was a felon?) in 2009. That was almost ten years ago, and it doesn't seem especially motorcyle-y, anyway. Are motorcycle gangs just more subtle now? Are the motorcycles no longer integral to their shenanigans? They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus? And if so, are they really a motorcycle gang? I mean, I bet lots of groups of drug-dealers or members of the Crips or MS-13 drive drugs around in so-called sport-utility vehicles or pickup trucks (they're popular!), but we don't speak about the the Crips as an "SUV Gang." What gives? I realise these musings are inane, but your remarks genuinely prompted me to wonder, in a profound, Seinfeld-ian way: "Motorcycle gangs – what's the deal?!" Does anyone know more about this topic?

    A new episode on Hell’s Angels from the Myth of the 20th Century podcast: https://overcast.fm/+H3-qiwsCs

  192. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @snorlax

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?
     
    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do
     
    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?
     
    That and they belong to a "motorcycle club" as a legal front entity. It's also part of the "uniform," same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they're genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I'm guessing there's also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don't do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.

    Motorcycle clubs of the one percenter, three piece patch type have been around in their present form since about the end of WWII and there is an elaborate set of medieval style customs, courtesies and protocols involved, enforced by the credible threat of violence on all sides. All the major clubs require you to own and regularly ride a large displacement heavy motorcycle-in the US that means a Harley Davidson in practice. (In the US, some clubs’ charters specify it has to be a H-D, but officially a prewar or 1950s Indian or other US made heavy bike would theoretically be ok with some. However, antique bikes break down all the time and a late model HD is the only rule meeting bike that would keep up. Evan Shovelheads today are rare as a member’s primary bike. While antique American bike marques are respected, the modern Polaris made Victorys and Indians, eh, not so much.) Participation in runs and club rides is mandatory. Many members work on their own bikes and rebuild and customize them. In that respect they are motorcycle clubs.

    What gets them into trouble is not the motorcycle per se in most cases. The clubs as clubs do not deal drugs, run prostitution and gambling rings, sell illegal firearms and stolen merchandise, etc, but in most some of the members do. They do get in fights with other clubs and occasionally beat up or kill individuals that get in trouble with them for perceived disrespect or aggression.

    Motorcyclists who want to ride as a club but not be “outlaw bikers” can be in what are called “riding clubs”, as opposed to “motorcycle clubs”. These differentiate themselves by several changes in style and substance and are mostly left alone by the MCs so long as they do so.

    • Replies: @danand
    #427 (Ford, or Chevy?), you’re correct about the mandated motorcycles. Sonny Barger has an interesting take (an excerpt from one of his books included in his wiki page).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger

    A cousin was an “associate” of Bargers until somewhere around Y2K, though the cousin was never really an outlaw (no prison time). The cousin, now totally straight and narrow, is what I guess I’d term a “town elder” in a smaller Nor Cal city.

    If you have MC club interest, and can stomach it thru the more intense bits, you may want to watch the series Sons of Anarchy.
  193. @Rosie
    I agree with most of what you say here, except this:

    The ones that are as messy as the house in the movie are that way because the mother can’t handle the responsiblity of cleaning the house (and I have seen, and regularly see it).
     
    What often happens is that kids and husbands won't pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn't have time to clean. You can't vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she's out of time before it's time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done.

    The problem is that there is way too much stuff and the woman is the reason for that. Women are also incredibly inefficient. They make everything take a thousand times longer than it needs to. If a man were doing it he’d get frustrated with the amount of time wasted and he’d figure out how to make it a lot less time consuming.

    If men were doing the childcare and housework more often they’d all figure out how to make it easier and then they’d get together and figure out how to have a blast with the kids through various activities. Then women would decide that men have it better than women and the ladies would demand to be allowed to stay home with the kids to escape the terrible oppression of the corporate world.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Just so.

    In this regard (envy regarding productivity and mastery of the external environment and things) females:males as Mud People:White People:

    "It's not fair all your $#@! is better; you must have cheated...."

    But the females at least contribute some redeeming, complementary, and indeed quite necessary characteristics to the males; the analogy breaks down there...
  194. @AnotherGuessModel
    Women can wait a few precious years to ride out puberty before having children, at negligible risk to their babies' cognitive ability. The various medical risks associated with teen pregnancy for mother and child are a feature, not a bug. There is even evidence that teen pregnancy has long-term adverse health effects to the mother (developmental, not social factors). Menarche does not mean that your body is ready soon after to have children. Teen pregnancy is a disruption of puberty, which is a transitional biological stage meant to prepare your body to have babies. And while age of sexual maturity differs by race, 15 as an estimated cap for development is too young for the West (height, maybe, but that's very different).

    Also, the case for teen pregnancy throughout history is overstated. Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty. Most "regular" women in antiquity and medieval times married and started having children at 22-25. In ancient Greece, wealthy or aristocratic girls were married off young and sent to live in their husband's home, but they delayed having children until 19-20. The medieval aristocratic classes pushed marriage and motherhood on teenage girls. It had so many sad outcomes that despite the sacrament of marriage and procreation, some churches tried to proscribe rules against it.

    Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty.

    I have pointed out before that even teenage boys intuit that teen girls are too young for pregnancy. They prefer women in their twenties.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8890497

    There’s a reason there is a junior section in the department stores. Teens’ hips are narrower than grown women’s, but broader than little girls’ hips.

    And yes, above average head circumference is associated with higher risk for c-section.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002937817328041

  195. @Alden
    I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my teenage daughters.

    Be careful. Some of the comments will attract law enforcement looking for men interested in statuary rape.

    Hello fellow teen pregnancy enthusiasts…

  196. @hujh
    I never understood the "dirty old man" insult. I suppose it's like calling someone a racist or a commie.

    On second thought it does actually mean something. It's a female form of shaming (men never use the term except as a compliment). Women use shame because nature denied them strength. And they're good at it.

    The shaming here is intended to keep men in line as slaves to their female owners rather than enjoying themselves for their own sake. Matters sex/brood-related have stronger valence than lesser concerns but these insults are tailored toward every sort of man who fails to play the part that women expect of him. Whether it's the deadbeat dad or the manchild non-dad there seems to be a female insult perfectly tailored to all those not laboring under the whip.

    Schoepenhauer (and Shakespeare and the holy bible) seem to have been on to something.

    Is there anything more pathetic than a man permanently attatched to a woman?

    Myself? Perhaps.

    I have no dependents and no white-whiskered woman to call me own but I do love children and f***ing too. Lacking the marital albatross I miss out on those.

    As I see from my friends and family, fatherhood is a joy. Not just when some survey tester asks you if you have children and then "over all how satisfied are you with your life", but daily. What man doesn't love the responsibility of putting food on his family and of looking after those food behatted little ones as they be-hat each other with red spaghetti sauce. Fatherhood is just a load of fun.

    And the daily boning with ready, willing and able still-hot and entrancing wives is of course known to all.

    Plus, I will die alone. I have never seen any man happier to die than a married one. Besides, no month of one's life is more important than the final one.

    Not to mention the fact that I am all alone. How I long for those days when I wasn't alone! Never free to come and do and say and be as I will without answering to anyone! How I long for those meaningful and interesting conversations, the freedom that comes from having a veto over my plans and the pleasantness of having another person always around.

    And the undertow of meaning that can only be provided in knowing that you are of service to others (women or children or kings or gods) is as denied me as the knowledge that some diluted frankenstein version of my superific genes will continue to exist after...HA HA! Sorry, I can't keep a straight face anymore. :)

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.

    Admit however your jealousy.

    Escaping the trap evolution set for us all (man and spider alike) is almost always wise for women too. Motherhood, both with small children and adult ones is usually less satisfying than advertised.

    And, unlike everyone here save the ghost of Henry Harpending, I can speak to the lives of men and women in non-western societies as well. In the middle east anyway. Millionaire marrieds in Dubai as much as mud-dwelling Arabs on the Syrian border are pretty much in agreement that marriage sucks and that parenthood is a chore.

    Happy oh so happy mothers day m'ladies!

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.

    I’ll see you in hell. I expect I’ll wind up there for having a smart mouth.

  197. @Bardon Kaldian

    The Roissyesque aspect of that dialogue may not be a coincidence. Cody’s combination of libertine id and conservative wisdom is pretty similar to Roissy’s, but from the female perspective.
     
    I don't know about Cody, but Roissy/CH (I guess the quote refers to c*ck carousel) is a sorry oracle for life. His world-view is simplistic social Darwinianism with a few Freudian ideas thrown in & all cooked in a goulash of desperation- get laid, try to procreate & then die. That's whole life.

    He tries to be a prophet to WNs, but he fails: who, on earth, would care for such a bleak & meaningless vision of life? All revolutions, all subversive ideas need to possess implicit explosive energy & semi-utopian hope. And all evolutionists sadly miss this crucial thing. Who cares for mere survival of species....

    I suspect the CH site is just another intelligence operation with its sole purpose being to collect data on its site visitors; indistinguishable tracking cookies, scripts, etc., esp. on the stupid suckers that post on it(do you really believe that “Roissy” could actually write all that stuff and still have time to sleep, eat, shit, punch the clock, AND leave his keyboard to go out and pick up women? Come on, guys-wake up! My bet is that there’s a whole crew of “Roissys” manning CH-24/7).

    Want a comparable example in history? Read about “Operation Trust”-the GPU org. that lured British spy Sidney Reilly back to Russia in the 1920s.(from Wikipedia) :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trust

  198. @snorlax

    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang?
     
    I imagine the way you join any gang: meeting an existing member in jail, or being related to one.

    When’s the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days?
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Waco_shootout

    They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do
     
    They collectively control most of the crystal meth trade. Other than that they sell other drugs and do other organized crime-type stuff: protection rackets, pimping, gambling, truck hijacking, etc.

    and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus?
     
    That and they belong to a "motorcycle club" as a legal front entity. It's also part of the "uniform," same as Crips wear blue bandannas or Aryans have shaved heads and swastika tattoos. And I imagine they're genuinely fond of motorcycles.

    I'm guessing there's also a continuum; some Hells Angels (or w/e) chapters are seriously bad news, while others are middle-aged LARPers who don't do anything illegal other than putting straight pipes on their bikes, smoking lots of weed and maybe starting bar fights.

    At the other end of the spectrum are the middle aged married couples who ride around on Honda Golden Eagles.

  199. @Bel Riose
    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.

    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.

    Math isn’t my strong suit, but doesn’t that mean that ~30% of divorces are initiated by men, leaving dependent women in a very vulnerable economic position?

    https://www.wealthysinglemommy.com/sahms-get-rude-awakening-husbands-judges-divorce/

    • Replies: @James Kabala
    Yes, a lot of these manosphere types do seem to act as if 70% is roughly equivalent to 100% The 30% filed by men is still a pretty big amount.

    I also wonder where this famous statistic even comes from. It seems as if people just quote it and never cite the original source. Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

  200. @Flip
    That's uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I've seen have been initiated by the wife.

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

    If it’s “uncommon,” then presumably you won’t mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won’t affect that many men, anyway.

    • Replies: @sabril

    If it’s “uncommon,” then presumably you won’t mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won’t affect that many men, anyway.
     
    I'm an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn't be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.

    In general, there is a problem that when you remove legal and social constraints on peoples' behavior, people start following their destructive impulses. In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman's instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There's a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men's looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are "unattractive" or "below average." See, man is not a pair-bonding species. If we were, we would not need the legal and social concept of marriage in order to get men and women to pair off.

    Unfortunately, our society is so gynocentric that it's socially and legally difficult to constrain women's behavior. We are told that it's wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex; that there should not be laws against women dressing indecently; that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.

    So the only practical way to keep female misbehavior in check is indirectly -- by constraining men. So yeah, imposing alimony and child support on men is probably a good idea. The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.

    (By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)

    , @Flip
    Marriage is supposed to be a contract, so if one side unilaterally breaks the contract without cause, he should suffer a penalty.
    , @Bel Riose
    Why should a man have *any* obligation to a "stay at home" wife once he divorces her?

    After all, the soon-to-be ex-wife chose to give up a possible career and stay at home to raise the children. And during the years when she was out of the work force, she certainly gained substantial economic benefits from her husband, who probably worked his ass off to provide for both her and any children.

    Demanding that a husband continue to support his ex-wife (even a "stay at home" ex-wife) in the "manner to which she was accustomed" is something which has always struck me as completely unjustifiable. Why, exactly, should a man do this? Because it's "unfair" to the woman (who, again, made the choice to stay at home)? Because she's going to have a hard time re-entering the work force?

    As feminists say: cry me a river.

    If the argument is that the ex-wife "provided substantial emotional support to the ex-husband during the years he spent building his career" -- which is what divorce decrees usually say -- the law should give the husband a financial *offset* for all the emotional support HE provided to HER during those years. After all, during the course of a long marriage, such emotional support will have gone both ways, right?

    Men provide emotional support to their wives, yes?

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There's no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife's choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    It's like with abortion. If a woman's body is 100% her own, and if the decision whether or not to have an abortion is 100% hers, then the responsibility to raise the child -- should she decide to have one -- should also be....

    ...100% hers.

    But then again, we all know that feminism is about women avoiding responsibility for their actions.

  201. @prosa123
    I work with a woman in her late 30's who has six children, four older ones including two in their teens and a set of 3-year-old twins (I believe from a second marriage). We were talking about child care and I asked if the teens help out with the twins. She said they do from time to time but she doesn't think it's fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They're at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.

    She said they do from time to time but she doesn’t think it’s fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They’re at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.

    That’s great if that works for them, but I must say I disagree.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to every place in the birth order. The elders get more privileges but have more responsibilities. They understand that when it is properly explained to them. They also come to take a great deal of pride in their roles, and they enjoy the respect that they earn from their siblings. I do not hesitate to remind my younger s of all their older siblings do for them when they behave as ungrateful brats.

  202. @Bel Riose
    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.

    What I’ve read is that women initiate 2/3 of all divorces, but that prior to the no-fault divorce era, they initiated closer to 100% of divorces. so what’s changed is that men sometimes start the process now whereas they wouldn’t dare in the old days.

  203. @Daniel Chieh
    Not one thing in your reply addresses the actual biological issues.

    Your rambles are also half-nonsense which has been addressed by reactionaries since the 1920s, but for what it is worth, consider the groups which do in fact manage large families: its almost always highly religious groups(Mormons being the prime example), which suggests that the throttling has only a little to do with economics.

    A specific area of my study, Catholic French Canada, was averaging between 4-8 TFR before the Quiet Revolution as well and again, it had little to do with expenditures as we understand it: average income would seem appalling low by today's standards, families lived together(even grandparents), and a statistically significant percentage of the people went into non-income generating religious studies(3% of women were nuns or novices to nuns). And yet, 4-8 TFR.

    And for what it is worth, my wife was 19 when I married her and I certainly wasn't 20-22.

    Doesn’t this kind of conflict with the original point about Down’s syndrome? Kind Number 8 at age 40 would be just as much at risk for Down’s as Kid Number 1 at that age, right? (See Trig Palin for an obvious example.)

  204. @Rosie

    You are correct. Statistically women file something like 70% + of all divorces.
     
    Math isn't my strong suit, but doesn't that mean that ~30% of divorces are initiated by men, leaving dependent women in a very vulnerable economic position?

    https://www.wealthysinglemommy.com/sahms-get-rude-awakening-husbands-judges-divorce/

    Yes, a lot of these manosphere types do seem to act as if 70% is roughly equivalent to 100% The 30% filed by men is still a pretty big amount.

    I also wonder where this famous statistic even comes from. It seems as if people just quote it and never cite the original source. Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    The important thing to remember is, if he leaves, it's his fault. If she leaves, it's his fault.
    , @res
    This gives one source of that stat:
    http://www.divorcemag.com/blog/why-do-women-initiate-divorce-more-than-men

    But the even more interesting statistic (this might be throwing gasoline on the fire here) was:

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.
     
    Another contrast from the linked article: http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/women-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce-study

    However, in cases where an unmarried man and woman lived together, each partner was equally likely to decide to breakup.
     
    Of course all of this came from a survey of 2,262 people: http://www.asanet.org/press-center/press-releases/women-more-likely-men-initiate-divorces-not-non-marital-breakups

    For those who really want statistics, here is a 38 page book chpater: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf
    , @Rosie

    Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.
     
    My understanding is that the ratio is 50-50 when you only look at SAHM marriages, which is the only statistic that matters to SAHM or women who would like to be SAHM.
  205. “What often happens is that kids and husbands won’t pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn’t have time to clean. You can’t vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she’s out of time before it’s time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done.”

    This comment makes no sense. She can’t clean because all the stuff on the floor gets in her way? Picking that stuff up off the floor is cleaning…

    I’ve been in many houses (including my own). the level of mess in the movie trailer didn’t appear in one day-its a multi-day project. I’ve been in houses like that. They are like that because the stay at home parent lets it get that way. Other houses aren’t like that because the stay at home parent doesn’t let it get that way. IT takes far less than 2 hours a day to pick up clutter. 2 hours/day is plenty to pick up clutter, vacuum once a week, clean toilets once a week, keep up with dishes, and do laundry.

    The real problem is that stay at home parenting is a job, but there is no boss, and thus no deadline. There is no fundamental reason to fold the laundry when it is dry other than its cluttery looking if you don’t-thus, many people don’t.

    Everybody sets their own minimum. Some would accept a living room like the trailer, but insist on cleaning dishes. Some would neglect both. Some leave hampers full of clean laundry on the floor and never get to folding it.

    In my own case, I always keep the ‘public’ spaces clean (living room, kitchen, etc). Thus, for example, my living room, in 10 years of 2 kids’ childhood, has never looked anything like the living room in the movie trailer. But I let the ‘private spaces’ go (top of clothes dresser, personal desk, shelves in garage, basement table, kid’s bedrooms, etc). I always fold the laundry.

    The one point I agree with you: I am not my spouse’s maid-and I don’t clean up after her. I think of it in terms if she were one of the kids-I wouldn’t clean it up, I’d tell the kids to clean up after themselves. But this doesn’t work with a spouse-so that is a genuine potential source of conflict.

    joe

    • Replies: @Alden
    Depends on the house layout. The standard post 1940 house is an abomination in and of itself for many reasons.

    The worst thing the architects did was to create a combination living room front entrance and main traffic way to the bedrooms.

    With no front hall and most important no HALL CLOSET people come in through the living room hall only way to get to the bedrooms horrible space and just shed coats hats back packs and even shoes and socks all over the place.

    Of course the hall closet has to be empty for all the coats and stuff. It’s not a storage rooms

    Pre 1945 houses often had built in cupboards and shelves in the common areas so there were shelves and cabinets for toys books, magazines iPads tablets kids toys this and that. But they were eliminated as well as front hall and hall closet.

    Both our houses were very easy to keep clean because the living room and dining rooms were real rooms. The front and back doors opened directly to traffic ways to the bedrooms. And the bedrooms had plenty of shelves and cabinets.

    The kids were so proud of the beautiful antique furniture, moldings, high ceilings etc they started cleaning on their own.

    A lot of clutter is just bad lay out and lack of shelves and cabinets. Another good idea is no food around the TV. And coats shoes socks and clothes belong in your bedroom, not spread all over the common areas

    Another bad idea that is getting worse and worse is the huge master suite and tiny little kids rooms. Parents have the living room. It’s the kids who need decent size bedrooms for their toys and clothes and sports clothes and the endless school projects and the homework burden.

    School projects are another source of clutter in the living room. What with endless homework in the “good” schools and school projects might as well home school.

    A really bad idea is those hooks where people hang up coats hats purses whatever. They can end up just a cluttered mess If you don’t have a hall closet walk to your bedroom and put that stuff in the bedroom closet
    , @Rosie

    This comment makes no sense. She can’t clean because all the stuff on the floor gets in her way? Picking that stuff up off the floor is cleaning.
     
    It makes perfect sense, as you acknowledge in your closing sentence, so I'm not sure what the point of all this was.
  206. @hujh
    I never understood the "dirty old man" insult. I suppose it's like calling someone a racist or a commie.

    On second thought it does actually mean something. It's a female form of shaming (men never use the term except as a compliment). Women use shame because nature denied them strength. And they're good at it.

    The shaming here is intended to keep men in line as slaves to their female owners rather than enjoying themselves for their own sake. Matters sex/brood-related have stronger valence than lesser concerns but these insults are tailored toward every sort of man who fails to play the part that women expect of him. Whether it's the deadbeat dad or the manchild non-dad there seems to be a female insult perfectly tailored to all those not laboring under the whip.

    Schoepenhauer (and Shakespeare and the holy bible) seem to have been on to something.

    Is there anything more pathetic than a man permanently attatched to a woman?

    Myself? Perhaps.

    I have no dependents and no white-whiskered woman to call me own but I do love children and f***ing too. Lacking the marital albatross I miss out on those.

    As I see from my friends and family, fatherhood is a joy. Not just when some survey tester asks you if you have children and then "over all how satisfied are you with your life", but daily. What man doesn't love the responsibility of putting food on his family and of looking after those food behatted little ones as they be-hat each other with red spaghetti sauce. Fatherhood is just a load of fun.

    And the daily boning with ready, willing and able still-hot and entrancing wives is of course known to all.

    Plus, I will die alone. I have never seen any man happier to die than a married one. Besides, no month of one's life is more important than the final one.

    Not to mention the fact that I am all alone. How I long for those days when I wasn't alone! Never free to come and do and say and be as I will without answering to anyone! How I long for those meaningful and interesting conversations, the freedom that comes from having a veto over my plans and the pleasantness of having another person always around.

    And the undertow of meaning that can only be provided in knowing that you are of service to others (women or children or kings or gods) is as denied me as the knowledge that some diluted frankenstein version of my superific genes will continue to exist after...HA HA! Sorry, I can't keep a straight face anymore. :)

    Come now harpies, attack my masculinity, threaten me with damnation in this world or the next.

    Admit however your jealousy.

    Escaping the trap evolution set for us all (man and spider alike) is almost always wise for women too. Motherhood, both with small children and adult ones is usually less satisfying than advertised.

    And, unlike everyone here save the ghost of Henry Harpending, I can speak to the lives of men and women in non-western societies as well. In the middle east anyway. Millionaire marrieds in Dubai as much as mud-dwelling Arabs on the Syrian border are pretty much in agreement that marriage sucks and that parenthood is a chore.

    Happy oh so happy mothers day m'ladies!

    I personally find middle aged and older men without women endlessly speculating about the sexual availability and fertility of older teens and young women just plain weird and perverted.

    I know 12to 35 year old women are much more attractive than 40 to 60 year old women, no matter how thin and well dressed and hairstyles and face lifted the older women are.

    But the endless posts about young women seem just perverted and weird.
    , especially the fertility speculation.

    The worst is “ young White women should have babies starting at 20”

    I’ve never heard opinions like that from any men I’ve ever known. Almost all men I’ve ever known are interested in their own sex life than the sex life of the rest of the world
    Many of the comments are weird, especially all these babies who are just supposed to be “ concieved without man”
    .

    • Replies: @sabril

    I personally find middle aged and older men without women endlessly speculating about the sexual availability and fertility of older teens and young women just plain weird and perverted.
     
    I think that this post illustrates typical feminist shaming tactics. If an argument has merit, it doesn't matter if it comes from a basement-dwelling loser who masturbates daily to midget porn.

    For what it may be worth, I am a middle-aged man who is married with children. I think it's a good idea for smart women to marry young and have many children. As opposed to spending their most fertile years partying, pursuing careers, chasing Chad, etc.

    And yeah, I find 20-year-old women more sexually attractive than my middle-aged wife. That's a perfectly normal male instinct and if you want to try to shame me for it, go right ahead. It won't affect the merit of any point I have made.
  207. @Autochthon
    How does one come to be in a motorcycle gang? I've always wondered. I've been driving motorcycles since I was nine years old, but I've never once, to my knowledge, encountered a motorcycle gang – and I've lived all over the place, and in many places with tons of crime and seedy stuff. Oh, I expect I've encountered a member of a motorcycle gang and not known it – some cat at a bar with a hog out front was in the Hell's Angels; some group riding together past me on the freeway were in a gang, or whatever. But where's the crime? Where are the news reports about even the aftermath? When's the last time these guys careened through town pillaging like they did in schlocky grind-house films from the good old days? A quick look into the Pagan's unearths some kind of raid on a guy's house for weapons the government didn't want him to have (maybe he was a felon?) in 2009. That was almost ten years ago, and it doesn't seem especially motorcyle-y, anyway. Are motorcycle gangs just more subtle now? Are the motorcycles no longer integral to their shenanigans? They embezzle or sell drugs or whatever they do and they just happen to drive motorcycles just as other embezzlers or drug-dealers might drive a Ford Taurus? And if so, are they really a motorcycle gang? I mean, I bet lots of groups of drug-dealers or members of the Crips or MS-13 drive drugs around in so-called sport-utility vehicles or pickup trucks (they're popular!), but we don't speak about the the Crips as an "SUV Gang." What gives? I realise these musings are inane, but your remarks genuinely prompted me to wonder, in a profound, Seinfeld-ian way: "Motorcycle gangs – what's the deal?!" Does anyone know more about this topic?

    A few years ago I read McMafia, an account of international organized crime. It described how the Hells Angels evolved from a rowdy biker gang to an organized crime organization heavily involved in drug trafficking. It’s not in their interest to get into brawls and create a ruckus like they did in the 1960s and 1970s.

    As someone just mentioned, you pretty much have to have a criminal record to get into the Angels, plus there is a lengthy vetting period when you are a “prospect.” During that period you will be called upon to do all sorts of things an undercover cop wouldn’t do, which is one of the reasons the Hells Angels is extremely difficult to infiltrate.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Hunter Thompson wrote a pretty good book in the 60s about hanging out with the Hells Angels.

    https://www.amazon.com/Hells-Angels-Strange-Terrible-Saga/dp/0345410084/
  208. @joeyjoejoe
    "What often happens is that kids and husbands won’t pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn’t have time to clean. You can’t vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she’s out of time before it’s time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done."

    This comment makes no sense. She can't clean because all the stuff on the floor gets in her way? Picking that stuff up off the floor is cleaning...


    I've been in many houses (including my own). the level of mess in the movie trailer didn't appear in one day-its a multi-day project. I've been in houses like that. They are like that because the stay at home parent lets it get that way. Other houses aren't like that because the stay at home parent doesn't let it get that way. IT takes far less than 2 hours a day to pick up clutter. 2 hours/day is plenty to pick up clutter, vacuum once a week, clean toilets once a week, keep up with dishes, and do laundry.

    The real problem is that stay at home parenting is a job, but there is no boss, and thus no deadline. There is no fundamental reason to fold the laundry when it is dry other than its cluttery looking if you don't-thus, many people don't.

    Everybody sets their own minimum. Some would accept a living room like the trailer, but insist on cleaning dishes. Some would neglect both. Some leave hampers full of clean laundry on the floor and never get to folding it.

    In my own case, I always keep the 'public' spaces clean (living room, kitchen, etc). Thus, for example, my living room, in 10 years of 2 kids' childhood, has never looked anything like the living room in the movie trailer. But I let the 'private spaces' go (top of clothes dresser, personal desk, shelves in garage, basement table, kid's bedrooms, etc). I always fold the laundry.

    The one point I agree with you: I am not my spouse's maid-and I don't clean up after her. I think of it in terms if she were one of the kids-I wouldn't clean it up, I'd tell the kids to clean up after themselves. But this doesn't work with a spouse-so that is a genuine potential source of conflict.

    joe

    Depends on the house layout. The standard post 1940 house is an abomination in and of itself for many reasons.

    The worst thing the architects did was to create a combination living room front entrance and main traffic way to the bedrooms.

    With no front hall and most important no HALL CLOSET people come in through the living room hall only way to get to the bedrooms horrible space and just shed coats hats back packs and even shoes and socks all over the place.

    Of course the hall closet has to be empty for all the coats and stuff. It’s not a storage rooms

    Pre 1945 houses often had built in cupboards and shelves in the common areas so there were shelves and cabinets for toys books, magazines iPads tablets kids toys this and that. But they were eliminated as well as front hall and hall closet.

    Both our houses were very easy to keep clean because the living room and dining rooms were real rooms. The front and back doors opened directly to traffic ways to the bedrooms. And the bedrooms had plenty of shelves and cabinets.

    The kids were so proud of the beautiful antique furniture, moldings, high ceilings etc they started cleaning on their own.

    A lot of clutter is just bad lay out and lack of shelves and cabinets. Another good idea is no food around the TV. And coats shoes socks and clothes belong in your bedroom, not spread all over the common areas

    Another bad idea that is getting worse and worse is the huge master suite and tiny little kids rooms. Parents have the living room. It’s the kids who need decent size bedrooms for their toys and clothes and sports clothes and the endless school projects and the homework burden.

    School projects are another source of clutter in the living room. What with endless homework in the “good” schools and school projects might as well home school.

    A really bad idea is those hooks where people hang up coats hats purses whatever. They can end up just a cluttered mess If you don’t have a hall closet walk to your bedroom and put that stuff in the bedroom closet

  209. @Joe862
    The problem is that there is way too much stuff and the woman is the reason for that. Women are also incredibly inefficient. They make everything take a thousand times longer than it needs to. If a man were doing it he'd get frustrated with the amount of time wasted and he'd figure out how to make it a lot less time consuming.

    If men were doing the childcare and housework more often they'd all figure out how to make it easier and then they'd get together and figure out how to have a blast with the kids through various activities. Then women would decide that men have it better than women and the ladies would demand to be allowed to stay home with the kids to escape the terrible oppression of the corporate world.

    Just so.

    In this regard (envy regarding productivity and mastery of the external environment and things) females:males as Mud People:White People:

    “It’s not fair all your $#@! is better; you must have cheated….”

    But the females at least contribute some redeeming, complementary, and indeed quite necessary characteristics to the males; the analogy breaks down there…

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Any of you, who have never seen Pathfinder, you may wish you had a son (or daughter...Saami did not take less pride if they had a daughter - there are no pronouns/gender in Finnish or Saami) who was as tough as this one depicted in this movie...it's all here: https://youtu.be/CZuWDiyddMQ
  210. @AnotherGuessModel
    Women can wait a few precious years to ride out puberty before having children, at negligible risk to their babies' cognitive ability. The various medical risks associated with teen pregnancy for mother and child are a feature, not a bug. There is even evidence that teen pregnancy has long-term adverse health effects to the mother (developmental, not social factors). Menarche does not mean that your body is ready soon after to have children. Teen pregnancy is a disruption of puberty, which is a transitional biological stage meant to prepare your body to have babies. And while age of sexual maturity differs by race, 15 as an estimated cap for development is too young for the West (height, maybe, but that's very different).

    Also, the case for teen pregnancy throughout history is overstated. Successful societies seemed to intuit that it was better for girls not to have children during puberty. Most "regular" women in antiquity and medieval times married and started having children at 22-25. In ancient Greece, wealthy or aristocratic girls were married off young and sent to live in their husband's home, but they delayed having children until 19-20. The medieval aristocratic classes pushed marriage and motherhood on teenage girls. It had so many sad outcomes that despite the sacrament of marriage and procreation, some churches tried to proscribe rules against it.

    Eh. I think my essential point was really a few:

    1) The notion that the entire human body reaches a specific plateau at a specific time is basically silly and if anything, increased nutrition(and probably less “natural” influences such as hormones in food) has decreased the age of sexual maturity since history. Furthermore, the idea that it doesn’t precede mental development assumes a lot of the human body, which really is hardly some sort of precise timekeeping machine when it comes to bursts of hormones, but is and should be seen as a kind of “best effort.” That’s how evolution works: even the brain is a version of that, thus the frequency of optical illusions that appear real.

    2) Adolescence is real, but it was significantly more developed as a vision in the 19th century in part due to its utility for marketing. As a general rule, if a stage in biology doesn’t exist in primates, it isn’t going to magically manifest in humans. Sophocles’ plays certainly has maidens, but how old is Antigone? She’s between twelve to fifteen, and noble girls her age typically betrothed before menarche. I’m not one to argue that it is ideal or anything, but its pretty evident that the entire notion of adolescence was far less visualized for girls in history.

    3) If there’s one certain thing about humanity, it is that they are sure to disappoint. If there is a second certain thing about humanity, they will disappoint in the form of procrastination. Your point about delayed childbirth is indeed true but that’s the thing: this was happening while Dante and Shakesphere were waxing poetic about what we would consider as barely pubescent girls(or even prepublescent: Dante’s Beatrice, though made a bit less creepy due to their close age). Of course, in practice they would be betrothed rather than married and childbirth hardly happened immediately; but if wish to aim for any reasonable fertility, it does seem like its best to try to idealize younger marriages and realize that in practice, the inevitability of procrastination will see older marriages and childbirth.

  211. @Zeroh Tollrants
    Yes! I *hate* stories about women whining about all they have to suffer and give up by having children. I hate these women, I have no sympathy for them, and they are nothing but narcissistic, attention-seeking a&&holes.
    You get pregnant, pop out a couple of kids, and move on with your life. I had my first one right after my 22 birthday. She's almost 30, has two kids in elementary school & is a dentist. She also didn't know she was supposed to be whiny and beg for attention over her great sacrifice, because we don't *do* that in my family.

    Love it! I am in awe that you were just 22. You are obviously, a very strong and happy woman. Your pride with your daughter’s accomplishments is wonderful. So happy that more women, normal mothers, new women, on Steve’s site, are chiming in! Happy Mother’s Day, to you, Zeroh T, and all of you, all the other Shield Maidens.

  212. @Autochthon
    Just so.

    In this regard (envy regarding productivity and mastery of the external environment and things) females:males as Mud People:White People:

    "It's not fair all your $#@! is better; you must have cheated...."

    But the females at least contribute some redeeming, complementary, and indeed quite necessary characteristics to the males; the analogy breaks down there...

    Any of you, who have never seen Pathfinder, you may wish you had a son (or daughter…Saami did not take less pride if they had a daughter – there are no pronouns/gender in Finnish or Saami) who was as tough as this one depicted in this movie…it’s all here:

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    early snowboarding...it was 1987 for Pathfinder; Jake Burton was still living on Long Island watching weird foreign movies...so...entirely possible. Still love Burton boards.

    Also, Rune Stones have guys on one ski (totally believable that people lost a ski). Apologies to Steve's regulars: the film I posted is the English/dubbed version. Your library has the original VHS tape! haha.

    , @Autochthon
    I respect you based upon what little I know of you from your remarks here; you seem a very decent woman. I'd be absolutely delighted to have a daughter; indeed I hope I do. Women have an important and wonderful rôle to play in a healthy society; I only object to their playing unhealthy rôles or harbouring either contempt for men or resentment at being women. The women I adore and respect abound: Boudicca, Jeanne d'Arc, Amy Lee, Danielle Brisebois, Mary Anne Evans, Victoria, Paula Radcliffe, Virginia Woolf, Ayn Rand, my wife, my church's secretary, many dear personal friends past and present.... (They all have their faults, of course, as do I; no mortal should be an object of idolatry.)

    I write these things because, while I am a great believer in realistic and empirical approaches to sex (as with race), I'm no he-man woman-hater; my remarks should be understood in their context. I'm the sort of person who means what he says – neither more nor less.
  213. @James Kabala
    Yes, a lot of these manosphere types do seem to act as if 70% is roughly equivalent to 100% The 30% filed by men is still a pretty big amount.

    I also wonder where this famous statistic even comes from. It seems as if people just quote it and never cite the original source. Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

    The important thing to remember is, if he leaves, it’s his fault. If she leaves, it’s his fault.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    sheesh..what happened to you?
    , @Jim Don Bob
    If a man says something in the forest, and there is no woman around to hear what he has to say, is he still wrong?
  214. @Anonymous
    Outrageous stats from anon7... source?

    Probably accurate. 'Dirty' is the adjective used most with the noun 'whore'.

    Modern western men will end up prizing female virginity above all in the future. One way or another. Just like old times.

    But right now we are at peak beta-tude with that prince in england marrying the 90 iq octaroon older slut. What a calamity. He should be marrying a 20 yr old Nordic goddess with brains and five kids in her future.

    Google risk of birth defects with age and you’ll find these stats or something close. These facts are diligently concealed by feminists, except when they blame men for not funding women’s issues.

    Speaking of people who need to have basic facts explained to them, why is 33 year old Harry marrying 36 year old Markle? The reverse question I understand.

    However, speaking of statistics, it turns out that marriages between a white guy and a black woman are much less likely to end in divorce than a black guy marrying a white woman. The Queen must be pleased about that.

  215. @Lagertha
    Any of you, who have never seen Pathfinder, you may wish you had a son (or daughter...Saami did not take less pride if they had a daughter - there are no pronouns/gender in Finnish or Saami) who was as tough as this one depicted in this movie...it's all here: https://youtu.be/CZuWDiyddMQ

    early snowboarding…it was 1987 for Pathfinder; Jake Burton was still living on Long Island watching weird foreign movies…so…entirely possible. Still love Burton boards.

    Also, Rune Stones have guys on one ski (totally believable that people lost a ski). Apologies to Steve’s regulars: the film I posted is the English/dubbed version. Your library has the original VHS tape! haha.

  216. @Reg Cæsar
    The important thing to remember is, if he leaves, it's his fault. If she leaves, it's his fault.

    sheesh..what happened to you?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    sheesh..what happened to you?

     

    I watched a lot of Johnny Carson as a youth.
    , @Lagertha
    I did too...he was the best. Johnny would be so disturbed by today. I so miss him. When I moved to the states, while my parents and I were watching Johnny, ...I knew we had landed in the best country in the world. Most Americans today, do not even know who Carson was. Makes me sad.
  217. Ivy says:
    @prosa123
    I work with a woman in her late 30's who has six children, four older ones including two in their teens and a set of 3-year-old twins (I believe from a second marriage). We were talking about child care and I asked if the teens help out with the twins. She said they do from time to time but she doesn't think it's fair to them to require them to be regular babysitters. They're at ages where they have their own activities and friends. As a result, she and her husband coordinate their work hours so that one of them is almost always home.

    A waitress at a local lunch spot opined to us that she had six kids by four guys, more or less without benefit of clergy. She was very friendly and gave good service, even to us married guys. There isn’t much of a warranty on high-mileage carousels, but California manages.

  218. @Anonymous
    HAMC is officially Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club, but the top rocker says HELLS ANGELS.

    A club website says "Missing apostrophe? Yes we know it is missing but it is you who miss it. We don't."

    So I suspect that the Pagan's put one in theirs as a deliberate provocation. Who knows?

    Probably a poor idea to argue about it or even ask them.

    Probably a poor idea to argue about it or even ask them.

    I knew a sergeant-at-arms in a motorcycle gang. Funny guy, watched out for his family and friends, took a road trip out of his territory, had a conflict and got killed

  219. @Dave Pinsen
    "Why Can't I" is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    https://youtu.be/f1MVkrk68Jg

    On her first album over, she was shown on her her knees about to give oral sex. I figured why she was so popular with the male music critics. Her music seemed average. She had that wholesome girl next door look; she easily could have been a playmate.
    Later when her musical career faded, she divorced and moved to SanDiego. In one interview, she talked about how she likes the Marines and she explains to her her child why there is a different man at breakfast each morning.

  220. res says:
    @James Kabala
    Yes, a lot of these manosphere types do seem to act as if 70% is roughly equivalent to 100% The 30% filed by men is still a pretty big amount.

    I also wonder where this famous statistic even comes from. It seems as if people just quote it and never cite the original source. Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

    This gives one source of that stat:
    http://www.divorcemag.com/blog/why-do-women-initiate-divorce-more-than-men

    But the even more interesting statistic (this might be throwing gasoline on the fire here) was:

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.

    Another contrast from the linked article: http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/women-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce-study

    However, in cases where an unmarried man and woman lived together, each partner was equally likely to decide to breakup.

    Of course all of this came from a survey of 2,262 people: http://www.asanet.org/press-center/press-releases/women-more-likely-men-initiate-divorces-not-non-marital-breakups

    For those who really want statistics, here is a 38 page book chpater: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf

    • Replies: @James Kabala
    Interesting. Thank you.
    , @Rosie

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.
     
    I don't find this in the least surprising, and there is a corollary to this: non-college educated women must be filing significantly < 70% of divorces. I suspect the reason is that they are not in the workforce, and therefore are not resentful of being responsible for most (or all) of the housework.
  221. @Rod1963
    I saw the previews, it really looks like a study in stupidity,

    There's a reason why women should have their kids in their 20's as opposed at the onset of menopause. For one damn reason, it's easier on them to recover and raise children. If you like children then don't put it off until the last moment. Because it's a study on self-inflicted misery.

    My sister had kids into her late forties. She has no energy for the second batch luckily she at least learned the ropes with her first batch.

  222. @Gunnar von Cowtown
    1. All these Diablo Cody fanboys and no one mentions Jennifer's Body (2009)? Am I the only one who liked that movie?
    .
    .
    ***crickets***
    .
    .
    Am I the only one who saw that movie?
    .
    .
    .
    Shut up.

    2.

    Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role.....
     
    The last time she did that, she won an Oscar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

    I loved this movie! I believe the reason that it failed was because it mocked The Goth kids. Goths are avid film viewers. Since this mocked them, they bad mouthed it and this discouraged viewers.
    The lesson here for all you moviemakers is to be nice to the Goths, and they will support you.

  223. @Lagertha
    Any of you, who have never seen Pathfinder, you may wish you had a son (or daughter...Saami did not take less pride if they had a daughter - there are no pronouns/gender in Finnish or Saami) who was as tough as this one depicted in this movie...it's all here: https://youtu.be/CZuWDiyddMQ

    I respect you based upon what little I know of you from your remarks here; you seem a very decent woman. I’d be absolutely delighted to have a daughter; indeed I hope I do. Women have an important and wonderful rôle to play in a healthy society; I only object to their playing unhealthy rôles or harbouring either contempt for men or resentment at being women. The women I adore and respect abound: Boudicca, Jeanne d’Arc, Amy Lee, Danielle Brisebois, Mary Anne Evans, Victoria, Paula Radcliffe, Virginia Woolf, Ayn Rand, my wife, my church’s secretary, many dear personal friends past and present…. (They all have their faults, of course, as do I; no mortal should be an object of idolatry.)

    I write these things because, while I am a great believer in realistic and empirical approaches to sex (as with race), I’m no he-man woman-hater; my remarks should be understood in their context. I’m the sort of person who means what he says – neither more nor less.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    duh, of course I respect you. I adore all the men who post here.

    I’m the sort of person who means what he says – neither more nor less.
     
    As, am I.

    Revere your beliefs: This is what I have taught my sons. And, they have learned to respect other people's thoughts. With young men (shud say white men - but I am an immigrant, so, still struggle with that) , they are thrown to the wolves these days if not for the ideas of you and me, Steve and about a hundred guys and maybe, 15 women. We are a small band of merry SJrealistic, yet skeptical, truly liberally educated (to discuss all sides) envoys. We are the last badasses in the USA of lame/crass asses

  224. @Alden
    This is just anecdotal, but I’ve found that older children of big families who had to do most of the housework ended up deeply resenting the parents and leaving home as soon as possible.

    “This is just anecdotal, but I’ve found that older children of big families who had to do most of the housework ended up deeply resenting the parents and leaving home as soon as possible.”

    My grandmother was the eldest of thirteen children in her family. She had to help raise some of her siblings (she left home and married before the last few were born). As a result, she was very disengaged with her own children. The housekeeper mostly raised my father. It was obvious to me even when I was young that my father was badly damaged by maternal neglect. Not surprisingly, he was very disengaged with his own children when it came to providing stability, love and guidance. He was always able to engage in anger. Misery is multigenerational.

  225. @Anonymous
    Motorcycle clubs of the one percenter, three piece patch type have been around in their present form since about the end of WWII and there is an elaborate set of medieval style customs, courtesies and protocols involved, enforced by the credible threat of violence on all sides. All the major clubs require you to own and regularly ride a large displacement heavy motorcycle-in the US that means a Harley Davidson in practice. (In the US, some clubs' charters specify it has to be a H-D, but officially a prewar or 1950s Indian or other US made heavy bike would theoretically be ok with some. However, antique bikes break down all the time and a late model HD is the only rule meeting bike that would keep up. Evan Shovelheads today are rare as a member's primary bike. While antique American bike marques are respected, the modern Polaris made Victorys and Indians, eh, not so much.) Participation in runs and club rides is mandatory. Many members work on their own bikes and rebuild and customize them. In that respect they are motorcycle clubs.


    What gets them into trouble is not the motorcycle per se in most cases. The clubs as clubs do not deal drugs, run prostitution and gambling rings, sell illegal firearms and stolen merchandise, etc, but in most some of the members do. They do get in fights with other clubs and occasionally beat up or kill individuals that get in trouble with them for perceived disrespect or aggression.

    Motorcyclists who want to ride as a club but not be "outlaw bikers" can be in what are called "riding clubs", as opposed to "motorcycle clubs". These differentiate themselves by several changes in style and substance and are mostly left alone by the MCs so long as they do so.

    #427 (Ford, or Chevy?), you’re correct about the mandated motorcycles. Sonny Barger has an interesting take (an excerpt from one of his books included in his wiki page).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger

    A cousin was an “associate” of Bargers until somewhere around Y2K, though the cousin was never really an outlaw (no prison time). The cousin, now totally straight and narrow, is what I guess I’d term a “town elder” in a smaller Nor Cal city.

    If you have MC club interest, and can stomach it thru the more intense bits, you may want to watch the series Sons of Anarchy.

  226. @Alden
    Read the review. Third child at 41.
    The worst thing about this site is the 90 year old male virgins endlessly yapping that women should get married and have 3 kids by the time they are 25.

    If you want that to happen these things are necessary.

    1 An economy where young people find family wage jobs at 20.

    2. Housing costs commensurate with the average workers wage.

    3. Men eager to marry between 20 and 22.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    And how many children do you have and how old where you and your wife when they were born.? Your post shows such complete ignorance of economics and employment trends of the last 60 years that I seriously doubt you have children or have been married.

    And you are the same 90 year old male virgins who endlessly denounce the black and Hispanic 15 to 25 year old women who have several kids at a young age.

    Aren’t they doing exactly what you want, having babies at a very young age?

    You’re not from around here are you?

  227. @Joe862
    Women in their twenties are as attractive as they'll ever be. It's the 80/20 rule. 80% are reasonably attractive at 20 and by 35 or 40 80% are amorphous blobs. They waste their power on the 20% of guys who'll never marry them. okcupid is hardly representative.

    Rosie is just engaging in feminist projection and deflection. The idea that 80% of girls in their 20s don’t get significant sexual attention from men is palpably ridiculous. And can be easily shown to be false with a dating profile experiment.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Rosie is just engaging in feminist projection and deflection. The idea that 80% of girls in their 20s don’t get significant sexual attention from men is palpably ridiculous. And can be easily shown to be false with a dating profile experiment.
     
    (1) I've repeatedly cited data, now conveniently disappeared, showing that men ignore women who aren't good-looking, though I never said anything about 80%.

    Now instead of hurling accusations, why don't you show me some data?
  228. @Obsessive Contrarian
    You're right about Roissy.

    BTW, Young Adult was a terrific movie. But it didn't do well at the box office so I think that Tully is their (Cody, Reitman) way of trying to worm their way back into the good graces of the Good People. But I haven't seen it so what do I know?

    Tiny Duck the broken watch.

    I would guess that in his younger days, Roissy probably scored with a few girls and then wildly exaggerated his conquests as PUAs are prone to do.

    But it’s been a while since his blog contained a lay report.

    I would guess that Roissy is in his 50s and it’s just really hard for a man in his 50s to walk into a club and pick up some young hottie. Between the competition from younger guys and fear of judgment of being seen leaving with some old dude, the battle is pretty much lost before such a man spits a single word of “game.”

    • Replies: @grapesoda
    There is so much dishonesty going on here that I hate to give a point to the other side but, I have to agree with this. It is DAMN HARD to go younger. I can get very attractive women my age but, it's damn hard to go younger. And I will. But it's not easy. Because of feminism. It used to be easier several decades ago, but it's damn harder now. And still women complain how hard they have it, even though every single thing in western society bows to them. I'll just give a for instance. My SIL rakes in 100K plus per year how? Because my brother brings it in. And she rules the house. She doesn't have to answer to anyone at all. And she walks around like impending doom. I find it hilarious when these privileged white ladies walk around in the 3rd world countries I visit like they're so sad. It's disgusting how little they appreciate how easy they have it.

    But yeah, I feel that Roosh and Roissy did men like me a disservice by giving the impression that we could always go younger. I'm talking like 10 or 10+ years. There is no reason why we couldn't theoretically. After all I make a decent living and have assets that people don't even know about. I'm taller and bigger and stronger and don't have a bad face. I have a good education. But because women get to be pickier now, that's just how it works. And still white western privileged women complain. Because they ONLY ever admit anything that supports their cause. They will never show any vulnerability, and they will get sympathy all the while even though they have no sense of honor. Now watch them descend like vultures on my post and say see I told you so without revealing any vulnerability themselves. That's why they won. They didn't won honorably, but they won Machiavillainly, just like blacks and Muslims will. So yeah this is me going down. I'll probably end up with a latina or asian woman. It's honestly a better fate then whatever poor loser had to end up with Rosie. Ultimately happiness is a mental phenomenon, not material, and whoever has to put up with that harpy is sentenced to a life of misery or financial servitude. At least I didn't make that caliber of mistake.

  229. @BB753
    "And I suppose the husband will have spent 10-15 years pumping and dumping, rendering numerous women unsuitable for marriage according to alt-Right men."

    For the majority of men, those 10 years would have been long years of involuntary celibacy or spent cavorting with prostitutes once a week. Good ol' patriarchy was no fun even for men.

    " One of the main reasons women started pursuing careers before children was because of a widespread and amply justified perception that men would dump their wives in middle age and leave them with no means of support after they gave them the “best years of their lives.”"

    That's just a cliché. Few men could afford divorce and still can't today.

    Yeah, I think Rosie is making the typical feminist mistake of looking only at men at the peak in terms of looks/money/social status.

    For most women, men below that peak are literally invisible. Your average guy can’t spend his 20s riding the c*nt carousel, so to speak and then settle down. Your average guy can’t dump his long term wife for some young hottie. The mathematics of the situation simply won’t allow it, both in terms of the number of available women and the cost of alimony and child support.

    No, the only men who can engage in these types of behaviors are those who are very wealthy and high in social status. But feminists (and women in general) pay a wildly disproportionate amount of attention to these types of men and conclude that this is typical male behavior.

  230. @Flip
    That's uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I've seen have been initiated by the wife.

    It’s common among the kind of men to whom women pay attention.

    We need to keep in mind that for your typical woman, 80-90% of men are sexually invisible. She literally does not perceive them as sexual beings and gives them virtually zero conscious thought.

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it’s done politely? The reason is that those women are trying to look good for the Chads, i.e. the small minority of men deemed to be sexually attractive. From the woman’s perspective, all other men are non-sexual beings, there just to make her lunch, drive the bus she’s on, and in general maintain the infrastructure on which she depends. If one of them starts behaving sexually towards her, it’s naturally upsetting.

    Anyway, that’s why women perceive a big problem with men who are commitment-phobic; who “trade in” their wives; etc. Because among men they perceive as sexual beings, it’s very common.

    • Agree: snorlax
    • Replies: @Rosie

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it’s done politely?
     
    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men's perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.
  231. @Rosie

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

     

    If it's "uncommon," then presumably you won't mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won't affect that many men, anyway.

    If it’s “uncommon,” then presumably you won’t mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won’t affect that many men, anyway.

    I’m an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn’t be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.

    In general, there is a problem that when you remove legal and social constraints on peoples’ behavior, people start following their destructive impulses. In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman’s instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There’s a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men’s looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are “unattractive” or “below average.” See, man is not a pair-bonding species. If we were, we would not need the legal and social concept of marriage in order to get men and women to pair off.

    Unfortunately, our society is so gynocentric that it’s socially and legally difficult to constrain women’s behavior. We are told that it’s wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex; that there should not be laws against women dressing indecently; that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.

    So the only practical way to keep female misbehavior in check is indirectly — by constraining men. So yeah, imposing alimony and child support on men is probably a good idea. The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.

    (By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)

    • Replies: @Rosie

    I’m an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn’t be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.
     
    As a mother of sons, I quite agree.

    In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman’s instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There’s a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men’s looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are “unattractive” or “below average.”
     

    This has not been proven. It doesn't matter if women believe 90% of men are below average, so long as they do not agree with one another about who the attractive 10% are, and indeed they do not. Women are not interested in sharing.

    It is actually men who agree on who is attractive, and therefore compete with each other most fiercely for the most attractive mates as I have explained and documented over and over again on this site.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/5502-men-agree-hot-women.html


    We are told that it’s wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex;
     
    It is wrong. Women yield to seduction by our very nature. It is cruel to shame women for being women. Men who seduce women and then go blab about it should be forced to marry them.

    that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.
     
    What would you propose?

    The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.
     
    This is not their instinct, but we don't need to agree on that. I may believe life-long monogamy is necessary to keep male wickedness in check, and you may believe it is necessary to keep female wickedness in check, but so long as we agree on the solution, we can agree to disagree on the nature and source of the problem.

    That's why it is so obvious that this is a contrived controversy intended to divide and conquer and nothing more.

    , @Rosie

    By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)
     
    This is incorrect. The trend is toward "rehabilitative alimony.". This of course incentivizes husband-stealing, because there is no reward for marrying a poor young man and sticking by him forever when some slut can come along and benefit from your years of loyalty and sacrifice. You might as well be that slut and get while the gettin's good.
  232. @Berty
    Why thank you for that brilliant insight, Mr. Old Boomer Guy.

    I swear iSteve is chock full of old Boomers who do nothing except lecture women about how ACKSHUALLY this is the right way to do it.

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees like to hang out and talk about female fertility and the optimum age for bearing a child, which is 17 years and five months according to our latest computations. Welcome to the club! No other topics are discussed here. Female fertility, ovarian reserves, the carousel, etc remain our only topics of discussion.

    • Replies: @sabril

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees
     
    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it's reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for "feminism" and "overpopulation." See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it's seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don't know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it's not 30+ and it's certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.
  233. @Alden
    I personally find middle aged and older men without women endlessly speculating about the sexual availability and fertility of older teens and young women just plain weird and perverted.


    I know 12to 35 year old women are much more attractive than 40 to 60 year old women, no matter how thin and well dressed and hairstyles and face lifted the older women are.

    But the endless posts about young women seem just perverted and weird.
    , especially the fertility speculation.

    The worst is “ young White women should have babies starting at 20”

    I’ve never heard opinions like that from any men I’ve ever known. Almost all men I’ve ever known are interested in their own sex life than the sex life of the rest of the world
    Many of the comments are weird, especially all these babies who are just supposed to be “ concieved without man”
    .

    I personally find middle aged and older men without women endlessly speculating about the sexual availability and fertility of older teens and young women just plain weird and perverted.

    I think that this post illustrates typical feminist shaming tactics. If an argument has merit, it doesn’t matter if it comes from a basement-dwelling loser who masturbates daily to midget porn.

    For what it may be worth, I am a middle-aged man who is married with children. I think it’s a good idea for smart women to marry young and have many children. As opposed to spending their most fertile years partying, pursuing careers, chasing Chad, etc.

    And yeah, I find 20-year-old women more sexually attractive than my middle-aged wife. That’s a perfectly normal male instinct and if you want to try to shame me for it, go right ahead. It won’t affect the merit of any point I have made.

  234. @Rosie

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

     

    If it's "uncommon," then presumably you won't mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won't affect that many men, anyway.

    Marriage is supposed to be a contract, so if one side unilaterally breaks the contract without cause, he should suffer a penalty.

    • Agree: Rosie
  235. @res
    This gives one source of that stat:
    http://www.divorcemag.com/blog/why-do-women-initiate-divorce-more-than-men

    But the even more interesting statistic (this might be throwing gasoline on the fire here) was:

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.
     
    Another contrast from the linked article: http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/women-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce-study

    However, in cases where an unmarried man and woman lived together, each partner was equally likely to decide to breakup.
     
    Of course all of this came from a survey of 2,262 people: http://www.asanet.org/press-center/press-releases/women-more-likely-men-initiate-divorces-not-non-marital-breakups

    For those who really want statistics, here is a 38 page book chpater: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf

    Interesting. Thank you.

  236. @Dave Pinsen
    "Why Can't I" is still catchy as hell. Is any other Liz Phair song that catchy?

    https://youtu.be/f1MVkrk68Jg

    I always thought “Never Said Nothing” was a pretty good song. Apparently the rest of that album was over-the-top obscene, so I never sought it out to listen to.

  237. @BB753
    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees like to hang out and talk about female fertility and the optimum age for bearing a child, which is 17 years and five months according to our latest computations. Welcome to the club! No other topics are discussed here. Female fertility, ovarian reserves, the carousel, etc remain our only topics of discussion.

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees

    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it’s reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for “feminism” and “overpopulation.” See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it’s seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don’t know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it’s not 30+ and it’s certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Lighten up and read the other guy's post again.
    , @Rosie

    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it’s reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.
     
    1. We're not going to accept forced prostitution.

    2. Why aren't Japanese women having more children? Poland?
    , @Rosie

    Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.
     
    Why is your solution always to take away from women? How about men do a better job sharing the wealth? Women didn't send all these guys' jobs overseas and import stoop labor to replace them at home?
    , @BB753
    It wasn't shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters. I happen to agree with you. Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we're screwed. The same goes for Chinese and Japanese women, because I feel the West needs them to sustain civilization worldwide. Otherwise, we're headed for Mogadishu.
  238. @Rosie

    That’s uncommon. Virtually all of the divorces I’ve seen have been initiated by the wife.

     

    If it's "uncommon," then presumably you won't mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won't affect that many men, anyway.

    Why should a man have *any* obligation to a “stay at home” wife once he divorces her?

    After all, the soon-to-be ex-wife chose to give up a possible career and stay at home to raise the children. And during the years when she was out of the work force, she certainly gained substantial economic benefits from her husband, who probably worked his ass off to provide for both her and any children.

    Demanding that a husband continue to support his ex-wife (even a “stay at home” ex-wife) in the “manner to which she was accustomed” is something which has always struck me as completely unjustifiable. Why, exactly, should a man do this? Because it’s “unfair” to the woman (who, again, made the choice to stay at home)? Because she’s going to have a hard time re-entering the work force?

    As feminists say: cry me a river.

    If the argument is that the ex-wife “provided substantial emotional support to the ex-husband during the years he spent building his career” — which is what divorce decrees usually say — the law should give the husband a financial *offset* for all the emotional support HE provided to HER during those years. After all, during the course of a long marriage, such emotional support will have gone both ways, right?

    Men provide emotional support to their wives, yes?

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There’s no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife’s choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    It’s like with abortion. If a woman’s body is 100% her own, and if the decision whether or not to have an abortion is 100% hers, then the responsibility to raise the child — should she decide to have one — should also be….

    …100% hers.

    But then again, we all know that feminism is about women avoiding responsibility for their actions.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There’s no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife’s choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.
     
    You are a natural ally of the radical, anti-family feminist, and an enemy of traditional men who want a stay-at-home wife.
    , @Rosie

    There’s no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife’s choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.
     
    BTW, your use of the term "live off" (like a parasite) is outrageous, as if a woman who cares for and nurtures a man's children is providing any value. Don't forget to call your mom and wish her a happy Mother's Day tomorrow.
  239. @Harry Baldwin
    A few years ago I read McMafia, an account of international organized crime. It described how the Hells Angels evolved from a rowdy biker gang to an organized crime organization heavily involved in drug trafficking. It's not in their interest to get into brawls and create a ruckus like they did in the 1960s and 1970s.

    As someone just mentioned, you pretty much have to have a criminal record to get into the Angels, plus there is a lengthy vetting period when you are a "prospect." During that period you will be called upon to do all sorts of things an undercover cop wouldn't do, which is one of the reasons the Hells Angels is extremely difficult to infiltrate.

    Hunter Thompson wrote a pretty good book in the 60s about hanging out with the Hells Angels.

  240. @Reg Cæsar
    The important thing to remember is, if he leaves, it's his fault. If she leaves, it's his fault.

    If a man says something in the forest, and there is no woman around to hear what he has to say, is he still wrong?

  241. @sabril

    If it’s “uncommon,” then presumably you won’t mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won’t affect that many men, anyway.
     
    I'm an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn't be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.

    In general, there is a problem that when you remove legal and social constraints on peoples' behavior, people start following their destructive impulses. In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman's instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There's a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men's looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are "unattractive" or "below average." See, man is not a pair-bonding species. If we were, we would not need the legal and social concept of marriage in order to get men and women to pair off.

    Unfortunately, our society is so gynocentric that it's socially and legally difficult to constrain women's behavior. We are told that it's wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex; that there should not be laws against women dressing indecently; that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.

    So the only practical way to keep female misbehavior in check is indirectly -- by constraining men. So yeah, imposing alimony and child support on men is probably a good idea. The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.

    (By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)

    I’m an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn’t be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.

    As a mother of sons, I quite agree.

    In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman’s instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There’s a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men’s looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are “unattractive” or “below average.”

    This has not been proven. It doesn’t matter if women believe 90% of men are below average, so long as they do not agree with one another about who the attractive 10% are, and indeed they do not. Women are not interested in sharing.

    It is actually men who agree on who is attractive, and therefore compete with each other most fiercely for the most attractive mates as I have explained and documented over and over again on this site.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/5502-men-agree-hot-women.html

    We are told that it’s wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex;

    It is wrong. Women yield to seduction by our very nature. It is cruel to shame women for being women. Men who seduce women and then go blab about it should be forced to marry them.

    that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.

    What would you propose?

    The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.

    This is not their instinct, but we don’t need to agree on that. I may believe life-long monogamy is necessary to keep male wickedness in check, and you may believe it is necessary to keep female wickedness in check, but so long as we agree on the solution, we can agree to disagree on the nature and source of the problem.

    That’s why it is so obvious that this is a contrived controversy intended to divide and conquer and nothing more.

    • Replies: @sabril

    This has not been proven.It doesn’t matter if women believe 90% of men are below average, so long as they do not agree with one another about who the attractive 10% are, and indeed they do not.
     
    That's why some men get hit on relentlessly by women while some men get no interest at all their entire lives.

    Women are not interested in sharing.
     
    They are very much interested in sharing if the alternative is to mate with an unattractive man. And that's in a culture where there is still a norm against polygyny.

    It is wrong. Women yield to seduction by our very nature
     
    Thanks for admitting that women are irresponsible children who cannot be trusted to competently make their own decisions in life. Anyway, it is true that shame makes women feel bad, but it works to dissuade them from engaging in destructive behavior. In fact women are very sensitive to shaming.

    What would you propose?
     
    If a woman cuckolds her husband, he should be able to divorce her and opt out of financial responsibility for her and the bastard children. It would be the same as if she had gotten pregnant as an unmarried woman.

    I may believe life-long monogamy is necessary to keep male wickedness in check, and you may believe it is necessary to keep female wickedness in check
     
    It's not a matter of wickedness so much as engaging in destructive behavior. Anyway, women have a hypergamy instinct, deal with it.
  242. @sabril
    Tiny Duck the broken watch.

    I would guess that in his younger days, Roissy probably scored with a few girls and then wildly exaggerated his conquests as PUAs are prone to do.

    But it's been a while since his blog contained a lay report.

    I would guess that Roissy is in his 50s and it's just really hard for a man in his 50s to walk into a club and pick up some young hottie. Between the competition from younger guys and fear of judgment of being seen leaving with some old dude, the battle is pretty much lost before such a man spits a single word of "game."

    There is so much dishonesty going on here that I hate to give a point to the other side but, I have to agree with this. It is DAMN HARD to go younger. I can get very attractive women my age but, it’s damn hard to go younger. And I will. But it’s not easy. Because of feminism. It used to be easier several decades ago, but it’s damn harder now. And still women complain how hard they have it, even though every single thing in western society bows to them. I’ll just give a for instance. My SIL rakes in 100K plus per year how? Because my brother brings it in. And she rules the house. She doesn’t have to answer to anyone at all. And she walks around like impending doom. I find it hilarious when these privileged white ladies walk around in the 3rd world countries I visit like they’re so sad. It’s disgusting how little they appreciate how easy they have it.

    But yeah, I feel that Roosh and Roissy did men like me a disservice by giving the impression that we could always go younger. I’m talking like 10 or 10+ years. There is no reason why we couldn’t theoretically. After all I make a decent living and have assets that people don’t even know about. I’m taller and bigger and stronger and don’t have a bad face. I have a good education. But because women get to be pickier now, that’s just how it works. And still white western privileged women complain. Because they ONLY ever admit anything that supports their cause. They will never show any vulnerability, and they will get sympathy all the while even though they have no sense of honor. Now watch them descend like vultures on my post and say see I told you so without revealing any vulnerability themselves. That’s why they won. They didn’t won honorably, but they won Machiavillainly, just like blacks and Muslims will. So yeah this is me going down. I’ll probably end up with a latina or asian woman. It’s honestly a better fate then whatever poor loser had to end up with Rosie. Ultimately happiness is a mental phenomenon, not material, and whoever has to put up with that harpy is sentenced to a life of misery or financial servitude. At least I didn’t make that caliber of mistake.

    • Replies: @Sabril
    I think it's always been pretty hard, it's just the mathematics of the situation. Men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s all prefer girls in their 20s.

    Feminists like Rosie have managed to convince everyone that there is an epidemic of successful men dumping their wives for younger women. I suppose this lie appeals to men's egos since we like to believe that "men age like wine."

    But as I keep mentioning, the mathematics of the situation ensures that very few men will do this. The one guy I witnessed doing it was both fit and a successful surgeon.
  243. Theron is both a dedicated actress and a Movie Star, so even carrying the extra 40 or 50 pounds she gained for the role…

    Haven’t read through the comments, so maybe someone already remarked on this, but I think it’s ridiculous how actors go to such lengths to be ‘realistic’. We are too addicted to ultra-realism in our art forms, and it has deadened our sensibilities to less realistic art forms (who goes to see a play anymore? who listens to poetry?).

    I’m sick of hearing how dedicated actors are to ‘their craft’ by putting on hundreds of pounds or whatever. Someday we’ll be hearing about how an actor got leg reduction surgery in order to play a dwarf in The Hobbit.

  244. @sabril

    If it’s “uncommon,” then presumably you won’t mind imposing lifelong alimony obligations on men who file for divorce from their stay-at-home wives, since it won’t affect that many men, anyway.
     
    I'm an anti-feminist and I would support this. It needs to be coupled with a requirement that the woman show fault, though. i.e. she shouldn't be able to just decide one day on a whim to dump her husband and collect her cash and prizes.

    In general, there is a problem that when you remove legal and social constraints on peoples' behavior, people start following their destructive impulses. In the case of sex and procreation, the natural human instinct is to engage in polygyny, i.e. your typical woman's instinct is to share Chad with other women rather than have some average man to herself. There's a telling piece of evidence for this, which is that if you ask a typical woman to rate men's looks, she will conclude that 80-90% of men are "unattractive" or "below average." See, man is not a pair-bonding species. If we were, we would not need the legal and social concept of marriage in order to get men and women to pair off.

    Unfortunately, our society is so gynocentric that it's socially and legally difficult to constrain women's behavior. We are told that it's wrong to shame women for engaging in promiscuous sex; that there should not be laws against women dressing indecently; that there should be no legal consequences if a woman cuckolds her husband and gets pregnant from another man; etc.

    So the only practical way to keep female misbehavior in check is indirectly -- by constraining men. So yeah, imposing alimony and child support on men is probably a good idea. The net effect of this will be to deter young women from following their hypergamous instinct of pursuing older, married men.

    (By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)

    By the way, I believe that most states already impose lifelong alimony on men in long-term marriages with stay-at-home wives. So your proposal is already in effect. But society would be better off if we made it stricter.)

    This is incorrect. The trend is toward “rehabilitative alimony.”. This of course incentivizes husband-stealing, because there is no reward for marrying a poor young man and sticking by him forever when some slut can come along and benefit from your years of loyalty and sacrifice. You might as well be that slut and get while the gettin’s good.

  245. Rosie is a hateful bigot.

    Definition of bigot

    : a person who is OBSTINATELY or INTOLERANTLY devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

    Now, I know Unz.com is supposed to be here to represent a wide range of viewpoints, but now that she has taken it upon herself to flood the comments with hateful bigotry, I don’t see why she shouldn’t be taken to task like anyone else would be. Is it just because she has a female username that you fucking pussies aren’t willing to put her in her place?

    • Replies: @Anon

    Is it just because she has a female username that you fucking pussies aren’t willing to put her in her place?
     
    No, it's because we're not high school sophomores and we're trying to have an intelligent conversation.
  246. @Alden
    My sister sounds like a combination of your mother and aunt.

    Since her nearest relatives are about 1,20o miles away, she manufactures endless fights with her neighbors that she spends hours telling me all about on the phone.

    She is also involved in civic activities in her town more for the purpose of getting into fights and drama than the ostensible purpose of pooper scooper law, getting a stop sign, parking regs whatever.
    Her kids go to private schools and she’s taken the older one out of 3 schools and the kid is 12. She and the youngest were asked to leave a coop nursery school after 2 weeks.

    We all have our burdens.

    On the plus side, my aunt canceled yet again today, so my Saturday afternoon is free.

    Flakiness, thy name is woman!

    • Replies: @sayless
    We knew your aunt would cancel but didn't have the heart to tell you, Stan.
  247. @grapesoda
    There is so much dishonesty going on here that I hate to give a point to the other side but, I have to agree with this. It is DAMN HARD to go younger. I can get very attractive women my age but, it's damn hard to go younger. And I will. But it's not easy. Because of feminism. It used to be easier several decades ago, but it's damn harder now. And still women complain how hard they have it, even though every single thing in western society bows to them. I'll just give a for instance. My SIL rakes in 100K plus per year how? Because my brother brings it in. And she rules the house. She doesn't have to answer to anyone at all. And she walks around like impending doom. I find it hilarious when these privileged white ladies walk around in the 3rd world countries I visit like they're so sad. It's disgusting how little they appreciate how easy they have it.

    But yeah, I feel that Roosh and Roissy did men like me a disservice by giving the impression that we could always go younger. I'm talking like 10 or 10+ years. There is no reason why we couldn't theoretically. After all I make a decent living and have assets that people don't even know about. I'm taller and bigger and stronger and don't have a bad face. I have a good education. But because women get to be pickier now, that's just how it works. And still white western privileged women complain. Because they ONLY ever admit anything that supports their cause. They will never show any vulnerability, and they will get sympathy all the while even though they have no sense of honor. Now watch them descend like vultures on my post and say see I told you so without revealing any vulnerability themselves. That's why they won. They didn't won honorably, but they won Machiavillainly, just like blacks and Muslims will. So yeah this is me going down. I'll probably end up with a latina or asian woman. It's honestly a better fate then whatever poor loser had to end up with Rosie. Ultimately happiness is a mental phenomenon, not material, and whoever has to put up with that harpy is sentenced to a life of misery or financial servitude. At least I didn't make that caliber of mistake.

    I think it’s always been pretty hard, it’s just the mathematics of the situation. Men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s all prefer girls in their 20s.

    Feminists like Rosie have managed to convince everyone that there is an epidemic of successful men dumping their wives for younger women. I suppose this lie appeals to men’s egos since we like to believe that “men age like wine.”

    But as I keep mentioning, the mathematics of the situation ensures that very few men will do this. The one guy I witnessed doing it was both fit and a successful surgeon.

  248. @sabril

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees
     
    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it's reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for "feminism" and "overpopulation." See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it's seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don't know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it's not 30+ and it's certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.

    Lighten up and read the other guy’s post again.

  249. @grapesoda
    Rosie is a hateful bigot.

    Definition of bigot

    : a person who is OBSTINATELY or INTOLERANTLY devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

    Now, I know Unz.com is supposed to be here to represent a wide range of viewpoints, but now that she has taken it upon herself to flood the comments with hateful bigotry, I don't see why she shouldn't be taken to task like anyone else would be. Is it just because she has a female username that you fucking pussies aren't willing to put her in her place?

    Is it just because she has a female username that you fucking pussies aren’t willing to put her in her place?

    No, it’s because we’re not high school sophomores and we’re trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    No, it’s because we’re not high school sophomores and we’re trying to have an intelligent conversation.
     
    You could have fooled me.
  250. @J.Ross
    One of the things that happens is, everything becomes political, and mountains must be moved so they never appear to be screwing up. The men around a woman are carrying her. In one case I know of, women who fell out of a hike would be taken to ride in a humvee -- and their pack and weapon would then be transferred some some guy already sweating under his own! How do you not come out of that resenting them? And this is a purely physical thing. That same woman might be highly competant in administrative matters. It's unreasonable to demand that she hump like a man.

    How do you not come out of that resenting them?

    This is very understandable, but there is no point resenting all women. I’m not in the military asking anyone to carry my pack.

  251. @James Kabala
    Yes, a lot of these manosphere types do seem to act as if 70% is roughly equivalent to 100% The 30% filed by men is still a pretty big amount.

    I also wonder where this famous statistic even comes from. It seems as if people just quote it and never cite the original source. Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

    Maybe it is really lower than 70%, or maybe it is even higher.

    My understanding is that the ratio is 50-50 when you only look at SAHM marriages, which is the only statistic that matters to SAHM or women who would like to be SAHM.

  252. @Lagertha
    sheesh..what happened to you?

    sheesh..what happened to you?

    I watched a lot of Johnny Carson as a youth.

    • LOL: MEH 0910
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6040/6428900779_9bee2b954a_b.jpg
  253. @joeyjoejoe
    "What often happens is that kids and husbands won’t pick up after themselves, so Mom doesn’t have time to clean. You can’t vacuum until the toys are picked up, and if Mom has to pick up the toys, she’s out of time before it’s time for the next snack, meal, errand, or whatever. A stay-at-home parent of a socially-active child rarely has no than a two hour block of time to get housework done."

    This comment makes no sense. She can't clean because all the stuff on the floor gets in her way? Picking that stuff up off the floor is cleaning...


    I've been in many houses (including my own). the level of mess in the movie trailer didn't appear in one day-its a multi-day project. I've been in houses like that. They are like that because the stay at home parent lets it get that way. Other houses aren't like that because the stay at home parent doesn't let it get that way. IT takes far less than 2 hours a day to pick up clutter. 2 hours/day is plenty to pick up clutter, vacuum once a week, clean toilets once a week, keep up with dishes, and do laundry.

    The real problem is that stay at home parenting is a job, but there is no boss, and thus no deadline. There is no fundamental reason to fold the laundry when it is dry other than its cluttery looking if you don't-thus, many people don't.

    Everybody sets their own minimum. Some would accept a living room like the trailer, but insist on cleaning dishes. Some would neglect both. Some leave hampers full of clean laundry on the floor and never get to folding it.

    In my own case, I always keep the 'public' spaces clean (living room, kitchen, etc). Thus, for example, my living room, in 10 years of 2 kids' childhood, has never looked anything like the living room in the movie trailer. But I let the 'private spaces' go (top of clothes dresser, personal desk, shelves in garage, basement table, kid's bedrooms, etc). I always fold the laundry.

    The one point I agree with you: I am not my spouse's maid-and I don't clean up after her. I think of it in terms if she were one of the kids-I wouldn't clean it up, I'd tell the kids to clean up after themselves. But this doesn't work with a spouse-so that is a genuine potential source of conflict.

    joe

    This comment makes no sense. She can’t clean because all the stuff on the floor gets in her way? Picking that stuff up off the floor is cleaning.

    It makes perfect sense, as you acknowledge in your closing sentence, so I’m not sure what the point of all this was.

  254. @Tiny Duck
    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    Roissy is a childless single man pushing 50 who has probably never touched a woman

    I nominate him for the next Dalai Lama.

    But it’s nice of you to volunteer as character witness in his harassment trial.

  255. @res
    This gives one source of that stat:
    http://www.divorcemag.com/blog/why-do-women-initiate-divorce-more-than-men

    But the even more interesting statistic (this might be throwing gasoline on the fire here) was:

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.
     
    Another contrast from the linked article: http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/women-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce-study

    However, in cases where an unmarried man and woman lived together, each partner was equally likely to decide to breakup.
     
    Of course all of this came from a survey of 2,262 people: http://www.asanet.org/press-center/press-releases/women-more-likely-men-initiate-divorces-not-non-marital-breakups

    For those who really want statistics, here is a 38 page book chpater: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf

    An even higher rate of 90% of all divorces are initiated by college-educated women.

    I don’t find this in the least surprising, and there is a corollary to this: non-college educated women must be filing significantly < 70% of divorces. I suspect the reason is that they are not in the workforce, and therefore are not resentful of being responsible for most (or all) of the housework.

  256. @sabril
    Rosie is just engaging in feminist projection and deflection. The idea that 80% of girls in their 20s don't get significant sexual attention from men is palpably ridiculous. And can be easily shown to be false with a dating profile experiment.

    Rosie is just engaging in feminist projection and deflection. The idea that 80% of girls in their 20s don’t get significant sexual attention from men is palpably ridiculous. And can be easily shown to be false with a dating profile experiment.

    (1) I’ve repeatedly cited data, now conveniently disappeared, showing that men ignore women who aren’t good-looking, though I never said anything about 80%.

    Now instead of hurling accusations, why don’t you show me some data?

  257. @sabril
    It's common among the kind of men to whom women pay attention.

    We need to keep in mind that for your typical woman, 80-90% of men are sexually invisible. She literally does not perceive them as sexual beings and gives them virtually zero conscious thought.

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it's done politely? The reason is that those women are trying to look good for the Chads, i.e. the small minority of men deemed to be sexually attractive. From the woman's perspective, all other men are non-sexual beings, there just to make her lunch, drive the bus she's on, and in general maintain the infrastructure on which she depends. If one of them starts behaving sexually towards her, it's naturally upsetting.

    Anyway, that's why women perceive a big problem with men who are commitment-phobic; who "trade in" their wives; etc. Because among men they perceive as sexual beings, it's very common.

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it’s done politely?

    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men’s perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.

    • Replies: @Anon

    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men’s perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.
     
    Please don't do this thing where you sound like regular commenter Corvinus. It lends credence to the otherwise unfounded accusation that you are some kind of troll.
    , @snorlax
    This post, going by your intended meaning, is a tautology: "sexually unattractive women are sexually unattractive."

    Your intended meaning also misses the point. In fact, men do think of all women, even unattractive women, as sexual beings. Attractive or not, the very first thought that crosses a man's mind when he sees a woman, any woman other than his mother or sister, is "WYB?" It's an involuntary reflex, asked and answered in about a quarter-second.

    Now, the answer may be and usually is "no" — which is beside the point. The point is, any woman a man has ever seen (not known, seen), he has at least considered as a "sexual being."

    With the disclaimer that I am not a woman (I am also not collective-sense "men") and so my theory of mind may be somewhat off here (I think I'm pretty close):

    For a woman, "WYB?" is not subconscious, but a conscious thought process that can take several seconds, minutes, hours or weeks. (To reiterate, men have a firm answer in under a second). It is not the first thought upon meeting a man. In fact, it is not a thought that even comes to mind, until after answering the question(s) "is he hot?" and/or "is he trying to have sex with me?" in the affirmative.

    Thus, unlike men, women do not think of unattractive men as sexual beings, unless forced to.

    This is biology. Whether you think biology is good or bad, it's pointless to argue with.

    Human sexual instincts, male and female, are optimized for caveman society. They are very suboptimal for present-day society. It should be obvious to any perceptive and reasonable observer that present-day sexual norms bring out the worst instincts of both men and women while masking the best, whereas those which prevailed prior to the 60's had some success achieving the reverse.

    P.S. Additionally, and unfortunately, wearing revealing clothing is nearly as common among the women to whom we'd rather not pay attention. Unattractive men, mercifully, tend to be fully clothed.
  258. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    As an aside, have you ever wondered why women wear revealing clothing and then get upset when men notice and comment appreciatively, even when it’s done politely?
     
    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men's perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.

    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men’s perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.

    Please don’t do this thing where you sound like regular commenter Corvinus. It lends credence to the otherwise unfounded accusation that you are some kind of troll.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Okay, Steve is going to hate me for comment-bombing, but I reread the previous comment and your rhetoric makes sense in context.

    "sabril" has a point but it is largely inapplicable to the situation (marriage) where he is trying to apply it.
  259. @Anon

    Is it just because she has a female username that you fucking pussies aren’t willing to put her in her place?
     
    No, it's because we're not high school sophomores and we're trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    No, it’s because we’re not high school sophomores and we’re trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    You could have fooled me.

    • Replies: @Anon
    I refer you to my previous comment (#260, though that may change).
  260. @Reg Cæsar

    sheesh..what happened to you?

     

    I watched a lot of Johnny Carson as a youth.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Thanks, Ed.

    But I specifically asked for a Gibson, so please take the martini back.

    (And if you're in the same place as Robert Bork, remember that he likes his neat, not with a "salad".)
  261. @sabril

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees
     
    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it's reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for "feminism" and "overpopulation." See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it's seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don't know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it's not 30+ and it's certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.

    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it’s reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    1. We’re not going to accept forced prostitution.

    2. Why aren’t Japanese women having more children? Poland?

  262. @sabril

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees
     
    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it's reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for "feminism" and "overpopulation." See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it's seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don't know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it's not 30+ and it's certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.

    Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Why is your solution always to take away from women? How about men do a better job sharing the wealth? Women didn’t send all these guys’ jobs overseas and import stoop labor to replace them at home?

    • Replies: @sabril

    Why is your solution always to take away from women?
     
    Actually, that's a lie. I proposed making alimony stricter on men a few posts back and you responded to my post.

    But anyway, Western society is intensely gynocentric. Traditionally male misbehavior such as rape or abandoning one's offspring is punished and sanctioned intensely. A man faces severe social and legal consequences for this type of misconduct. Meanwhile, traditionally female misbehavior such as cuckoldry, false rape accusations, or spermjacking are winked at or even rewarded.

    Similarly, Western society caters to women's shortsighted desire to spend their most fertile years pursuing careers and Chads and this is what needs to be reigned in. The equivalent for men would be spending their youth playing video games instead of working. And indeed men are relentlessly shamed for this type of conduct.

    So that's the answer to your question. Women are out of control and need to be reigned in. Men are already under control and therefore don't need to be reigned in.

    How about men do a better job sharing the wealth?
     
    The correct way for men to share the wealth they create is by marrying women who serve as devoted helpers and mothers in return for participating in the man's income. Not by pretending that women are workers with male level productivity.
  263. @Rosie

    No, it’s because we’re not high school sophomores and we’re trying to have an intelligent conversation.
     
    You could have fooled me.

    I refer you to my previous comment (#260, though that may change).

  264. @Bel Riose
    Why should a man have *any* obligation to a "stay at home" wife once he divorces her?

    After all, the soon-to-be ex-wife chose to give up a possible career and stay at home to raise the children. And during the years when she was out of the work force, she certainly gained substantial economic benefits from her husband, who probably worked his ass off to provide for both her and any children.

    Demanding that a husband continue to support his ex-wife (even a "stay at home" ex-wife) in the "manner to which she was accustomed" is something which has always struck me as completely unjustifiable. Why, exactly, should a man do this? Because it's "unfair" to the woman (who, again, made the choice to stay at home)? Because she's going to have a hard time re-entering the work force?

    As feminists say: cry me a river.

    If the argument is that the ex-wife "provided substantial emotional support to the ex-husband during the years he spent building his career" -- which is what divorce decrees usually say -- the law should give the husband a financial *offset* for all the emotional support HE provided to HER during those years. After all, during the course of a long marriage, such emotional support will have gone both ways, right?

    Men provide emotional support to their wives, yes?

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There's no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife's choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    It's like with abortion. If a woman's body is 100% her own, and if the decision whether or not to have an abortion is 100% hers, then the responsibility to raise the child -- should she decide to have one -- should also be....

    ...100% hers.

    But then again, we all know that feminism is about women avoiding responsibility for their actions.

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There’s no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife’s choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    You are a natural ally of the radical, anti-family feminist, and an enemy of traditional men who want a stay-at-home wife.

  265. @Bel Riose
    Why should a man have *any* obligation to a "stay at home" wife once he divorces her?

    After all, the soon-to-be ex-wife chose to give up a possible career and stay at home to raise the children. And during the years when she was out of the work force, she certainly gained substantial economic benefits from her husband, who probably worked his ass off to provide for both her and any children.

    Demanding that a husband continue to support his ex-wife (even a "stay at home" ex-wife) in the "manner to which she was accustomed" is something which has always struck me as completely unjustifiable. Why, exactly, should a man do this? Because it's "unfair" to the woman (who, again, made the choice to stay at home)? Because she's going to have a hard time re-entering the work force?

    As feminists say: cry me a river.

    If the argument is that the ex-wife "provided substantial emotional support to the ex-husband during the years he spent building his career" -- which is what divorce decrees usually say -- the law should give the husband a financial *offset* for all the emotional support HE provided to HER during those years. After all, during the course of a long marriage, such emotional support will have gone both ways, right?

    Men provide emotional support to their wives, yes?

    You make a choice, you bear the risks. There's no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife's choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    It's like with abortion. If a woman's body is 100% her own, and if the decision whether or not to have an abortion is 100% hers, then the responsibility to raise the child -- should she decide to have one -- should also be....

    ...100% hers.

    But then again, we all know that feminism is about women avoiding responsibility for their actions.

    There’s no equitable reason to punish the ex-husband for the ex-wife’s choice to skip out of the work force and live off his largesse while staying at home and raising kids.

    BTW, your use of the term “live off” (like a parasite) is outrageous, as if a woman who cares for and nurtures a man’s children is providing any value. Don’t forget to call your mom and wish her a happy Mother’s Day tomorrow.

  266. @Anon

    Yes, wearing revealing clothing is common among the women to whom men pay attention. From the men’s perspective, all other women are non-sexual beings.
     
    Please don't do this thing where you sound like regular commenter Corvinus. It lends credence to the otherwise unfounded accusation that you are some kind of troll.

    Okay, Steve is going to hate me for comment-bombing, but I reread the previous comment and your rhetoric makes sense in context.

    “sabril” has a point but it is largely inapplicable to the situation (marriage) where he is trying to apply it.

  267. @sabril

    Yeah, iSteve is the place where we lonely bitter older bachelors or divorcees
     
    Lol, nice shaming attempt. The fact is that it's reasonable to be concerned about declining fertility rates in the West which are below replacement levels in many places. And low fertility rates are directly the result of women receiving economic, educational, and career rights and opportunities.

    This is common sense, but you can also verify it by doing searches for "feminism" and "overpopulation." See, people are willing to admit the relationship when it's seen as a good thing, by the West is so gynocentric that there is an unwillingness to admit that there is a heavy cost to empowering women. Both for society at large, but in particular for men who are mediocre in terms of looks/money/status.

    Anyway, I don't know what the optimum age is for a woman to have a child, but it's not 30+ and it's certainly not 35+. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to freak out when confronted with any information which counsels against Empowering Women.

    It wasn’t shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters. I happen to agree with you. Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we’re screwed. The same goes for Chinese and Japanese women, because I feel the West needs them to sustain civilization worldwide. Otherwise, we’re headed for Mogadishu.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    It wasn’t shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters.
     
    What feminist posters? You mean Bel Riose, who wants policy specifically calculated to discourage mothering and promote careerism?

    Bel Riose is the disloyal, irresponsible degenerate the good Mrs. Schlaffly tried to warn us about.

    BTW, is Mrs. Schlaffly a "feminist" by isteve reckoning? If not, I should be clear of this charge, given that my politics are indistinguishable from hers.

    And BTW Mrs. Schlaffly, yes we are now indeed being denied the right to our own restrooms, even though people laughed at you for predicting same.

    http://www.ushistory.org/us/57c.asp

    , @Rosie

    Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we’re screwed.
     
    25 is a very good age for a first baby. Ideally, that gives a newly-married couple a few years to themselves before taking on the challenge of parenting.
  268. @Charles Pewitt
    WHITE WOMEN

    Charlize Theron is a White foreigner woman of glacial beauty and willowy stature.

    The Democrat Party is doing everything it can to grab the White Woman vote in the United States.

    The New York Times just did a story in this morning's paper about White women pushing for a Democrat Party victory in the upcoming mid-term elections.

    Trumpy won the White women battle against baby boomer globalizer Hillary Clinton. Trumpy has been weak and cowardly on immigration policy. I'll give Trumpy credit for his actions on certain elements of trade and foreign policy. Trumpy must do more to kill NAFTA and the European Union and the European Central Bank.

    White women voters want strong leadership that will fight for them and their families. White women voters want Trumpy to put the interests of American citizens ahead of the interests of foreigners. Trumpy must make it clear that White women are under attack from open borders mass immigration and multicultural mayhem.

    It is well known in political circles that the Penn boys like them some willowy, beautiful dork type women. Sean Penn was making the beast with two backs with Theron. Penn's brother is married to willowy, beautiful dork type White woman Amee Mann. We all love Amee Mann for being a willowy, beautiful dork type female, don't we?

    Sean Penn made the unwise choice to ditch his guns as a condition of enjoying the willowy beauty of Theron. For all Sean Penn's attempts to act like a tough guy, that seems like a pussy move to give up your guns because some beautiful broad makes it a condition of whoopee fun.

    To sum up, White women want some balls and heart, and White women voters might sit out the mid-terms or vote for the Democrat Party if they see more weak crybaby nonsense from Trumpy and the GOP on immigration.

    Charlize Theron is just as ungrateful as any random Jew when it comes to being thankful for being allowed to live in a nation started and formed by British Protestants. Theron the South African was making squawks about how there is so much "racism" in the United States. A smart White man would win over over plenty of White native-born women voters by calling out Theron on her hypocrisy. Invite Theron to go back to Africa to escape the "racism." Do it gently, you awkward boob candidates!

    To sum up, White women want some balls and heart, and White women voters might sit out the mid-terms or vote for the Democrat Party if they see more weak crybaby nonsense from Trumpy and the GOP on immigration.

    You’d better believe it. We voted for Trump on the strength of promises he made to our husbands, sons, and brothers regarding trade and immigration. I fear his failure to follow through will cost him dearly with us.

  269. @BB753
    It wasn't shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters. I happen to agree with you. Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we're screwed. The same goes for Chinese and Japanese women, because I feel the West needs them to sustain civilization worldwide. Otherwise, we're headed for Mogadishu.

    It wasn’t shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters.

    What feminist posters? You mean Bel Riose, who wants policy specifically calculated to discourage mothering and promote careerism?

    Bel Riose is the disloyal, irresponsible degenerate the good Mrs. Schlaffly tried to warn us about.

    BTW, is Mrs. Schlaffly a “feminist” by isteve reckoning? If not, I should be clear of this charge, given that my politics are indistinguishable from hers.

    And BTW Mrs. Schlaffly, yes we are now indeed being denied the right to our own restrooms, even though people laughed at you for predicting same.

    http://www.ushistory.org/us/57c.asp

    • Replies: @BB753
    I don't know. You sound like a feminist to me.
  270. @BB753
    It wasn't shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters. I happen to agree with you. Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we're screwed. The same goes for Chinese and Japanese women, because I feel the West needs them to sustain civilization worldwide. Otherwise, we're headed for Mogadishu.

    Western women should start having their first child at age 25 (the second necessary kid can be delayed till later, as long as we go back to fertility replacement levels) or we’re screwed.

    25 is a very good age for a first baby. Ideally, that gives a newly-married couple a few years to themselves before taking on the challenge of parenting.

  271. @Rosie

    It wasn’t shaming but a lame attempt at sarcasm directed at the feminist posters.
     
    What feminist posters? You mean Bel Riose, who wants policy specifically calculated to discourage mothering and promote careerism?

    Bel Riose is the disloyal, irresponsible degenerate the good Mrs. Schlaffly tried to warn us about.

    BTW, is Mrs. Schlaffly a "feminist" by isteve reckoning? If not, I should be clear of this charge, given that my politics are indistinguishable from hers.

    And BTW Mrs. Schlaffly, yes we are now indeed being denied the right to our own restrooms, even though people laughed at you for predicting same.

    http://www.ushistory.org/us/57c.asp

    I don’t know. You sound like a feminist to me.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    I don’t know. You sound like a feminist to me.
     
    Out of respect for Anon[198] above, I'm going to try to be on my best behavior for the rest of the day. Why don't you tell me what, exactly, you think makes me sound like a feminist and we'll see if we can sort it out.

    If by "feminist" you mean a woman who advocates for women's best interests as I understand them, then I'll own it.
  272. @BB753
    I don't know. You sound like a feminist to me.

    I don’t know. You sound like a feminist to me.

    Out of respect for Anon[198] above, I’m going to try to be on my best behavior for the rest of the day. Why don’t you tell me what, exactly, you think makes me sound like a feminist and we’ll see if we can sort it out.

    If by “feminist” you mean a woman who advocates for women’s best interests as I understand them, then I’ll own it.

    • Replies: @BB753
    "If by “feminist” you mean a woman who advocates for women’s best interests as I understand them, then I’ll own it."

    That's my definition of a feminist. Women first. Children and men second. Pure female ego.
    , @3g4me
    @274 Rosie: "If by “feminist” you mean a woman who advocates for women’s best interests as I understand them, then I’ll own it."

    Rosie, on whose behalf do you believe you are advocating here? You are aware, are you not, that you are neither the first nor the sole female commenter at iSteve? You are aware, are you not, that there are a number of women, most of whom are not famous, whose political and social beliefs fall within the purview of the alt-right? Who appointed you "women's advocate" either at iSteve, or for the alt-right, or for more traditionally-minded women?

    You do not speak for me and, frankly, your personal crusade here is a perfect example of why so many men dislike modern women, regardless of their political proclivities.
  273. @Rosie

    I don’t know. You sound like a feminist to me.
     
    Out of respect for Anon[198] above, I'm going to try to be on my best behavior for the rest of the day. Why don't you tell me what, exactly, you think makes me sound like a feminist and we'll see if we can sort it out.

    If by "feminist" you mean a woman who advocates for women's best interests as I understand them, then I'll own it.

    “If by “feminist” you mean a woman who advocates for women’s best interests as I understand them, then I’ll own it.”

    That’s my definition of a feminist. Women first. Children and men second. Pure female ego.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    That’s my definition of a feminist. Women first. Children and men second. Pure female ego.
     
    Does the fact that I have repeatedly stated that women's interests are inseparable from the interests of their husbands and children, and indeed our people as a whole, make any difference to you, or are we just playing semantic games to avoid the real issues?
  274. @Stan Adams
    On the plus side, my aunt canceled yet again today, so my Saturday afternoon is free.

    Flakiness, thy name is woman!

    We knew your aunt would cancel but didn’t have the heart to tell you, Stan.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    I'm a big boy. I can take it.

    Honestly, I'd rather have a root canal than spend an afternoon playing referee to my squabbling relatives.

    Speaking of root canals ... I'd better get ready to take my mother to her Mother's Day lunch. (We were supposed to meet at noon, but her noon is my 2.)