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When the Navy’s large amphibious assault ship / light aircraft carrier Bonhomme Richard under repair in San Diego harbor burned past hope of repair during July 2020, I speculated this multi-billion dollar disaster might have something to do with the Racial Reckoning.

My suspicion was wrong: the arsonist sailor was, apparently, a white guy upset over a romantic setback with a sailorette.

But, the U.S. Navy is supposed to be pretty good at putting out fires. In U.S. naval history, several of the most heroic passages are fire-fighting efforts that saved stricken ships from destruction. From USNI News:

Long Chain of Failures Left Sailors Unprepared to Fight USS Bonhomme Richard Fire, Investigation Finds

By: Sam LaGrone and Gidget Fuentes

October 19, 2021 1:25 PM • Updated: October 20, 2021 6:03 AM

A cascade of failures – from a junior enlisted sailor not recognizing a fire at the end of their duty watch to fundamental problems with how the U.S. Navy trains sailors to fight fires in shipyards – are responsible for the five-day blaze that cost the service an amphibious warship, according to an investigation into the July 2020 USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) fire reviewed by USNI News.

The investigation into the fire aboard Bonhomme Richard, overseen by former U.S. 3rd Fleet commander Vice Adm. Scott Conn, found that the two-year-long \$249 million maintenance period rendered the ship’s crew unprepared to fight the fire the service says was set by a crew member.

“Although the fire was started by an act of arson, the ship was lost due to an inability to extinguish the fire,” Conn wrote in his investigation, which was completed in April and reviewed by USNI News this week. …

I would imagine that Xi Jinping had access to this report earlier than the U.S. public did and that it brightened his day.

Conn singled out 36 individuals, including five admirals, who were responsible for the loss of the ship due to either their actions on July 12 or lack of oversight leading up to the alleged arson. …

Conn highlighted the lack of adherence to the Navy’s special procedures for fire safety, which the service put in place after a 2012 arsonist fire resulted in the loss of attack submarine USS Miami (SSN-755), as a major cause of the fire.

“The considerable similarities between the fire on USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) and the USS Miami (SSN-755) fire of eight years prior are not the result of the wrong lessons being identified in 2012, it is the result of failing to rigorously implement the policy changes designed to preclude recurrence,” Conn wrote in his report.

Navy officials have said little publicly about the resulting investigations into the fire’s cause and the firefighting response by the ship’s watchstanders, the base’s federal Fire Department crews and the local San Diego Fire Department. The investigation describes the overall response on the first day as disjointed, poorly coordinated and confusing. …

The first hint of trouble on July 12, 2020, came just after morning colors. Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she headed out to a vending machine after her watch. She noticed a “hazy, white fog” in the lower vehicle deck around 8:10 a.m. But she didn’t report it, the investigation found, noting that “because she did not smell smoke, (the sailor) continued to her berthing.” …

Then a lot of confused, ineffectual things happened involving the crew for almost two hours before San Diego Fire Department firefighters arrived and, you know, fought the fire.

The fire had spread unabated for nearly two hours before the first firefighters – crews from the San Diego Fire Department – poured water onto the flames.

That happened at 9:51 a.m. on the upper vehicle deck, where the city firefighters on their own initiative attacked a fire along the space’s starboard side. While unfamiliar with the ship’s layout, they told investigators, they nevertheless reached one area of the fire and fought the blaze for at least another 30 minutes before conditions deteriorated with the fire’s continuing multi-fingered spread.

By then, the billowing smoke had turned heavy and black. One city firefighting official told his teams: “This compartment is about to blast.”

At 10:37 a.m., the on-scene command ordered all firefighting teams to evacuate the ship.

At 10:50 a.m., “approximately 90 seconds after the last firefighters had departed the ship, a massive explosion occurred” aboard, according to the report. The ensuing shock wave knocked down people on the pier and blew debris across to Fitzgerald, and massive smoke billowed high into the clear sky across San Diego Bay. …

“This explosion occurred after more than two hours of efforts where none of the ship’s installed firefighting systems were employed and no effective action was taken by any organization involved to limit the spread of the smoke and fires,” the lead investigator wrote in the executive summary. …

After an evaluation of what it would cost to repair the ship, the Navy decided to instead scrap Bonhomme Richard. …

 
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  1. How I read the lede, first time around:

    A cascade of failures – from a junior enlisted sailor not recognizing a fire at the end of their duty watch to fundamental problems with how the U.S. Navy trains trans sailors to fight fires in shipyards – are responsible for the five-day blaze that cost the service an amphibious warship…

    Whether DEI or DIE, diversity first and foremost.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @ic1000

    Rest assured, the every last crew member was in ship shape and had all their shit squared away for an admiral's inspection of their diversity, inclusion and equity training requirements.

  2. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    The fire had spread unabated for nearly two hours before the first firefighters – crews from the San Diego Fire Department – poured water onto the flames.

    That happened at 9:51 a.m. on the upper vehicle deck, where the city firefighters on their own initiative attacked a fire along the space’s starboard side.

    The future is already here-it’s just not very evenly distributed.

    Sounds like the San Diego Fire Department hasn’t yet received as large a dose of the future as the Navy has. Give it time.

    • Agree: Old and Grumpy
  3. • Replies: @Hibernian
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Similar situations have been the plots of various murder mysteries, sometimes very similar, other times with swords, saddles on bucking broncos (with an attachment cut), or someone at a high altitude suspended by a wire, also cut.

    , @Sebastian Y.
    @JohnnyWalker123

    So far Baldwin faced a lot more scrutiny than Michael Byrd, the Capitol cop who gunned done unarmed Ashli Babbitt.

    , @JimDandy
    @JohnnyWalker123

    What's the difference between Derek Chauvin and Alec Baldwin? Baldwin actual killed a person.

    Replies: @Rob

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Apparently, Baldwin was also a producer, with ultimate authority over things like staffing, safety and training. But they were low budget and cutting corners everywhere. This isn't looking good for him.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Feryl, @SunBakedSuburb

    , @Mike Tre
    @JohnnyWalker123

    If a gun loaded with blanks is fired at another person at point blank range it could kill them. Baldwin has been working with prop firearms for what? 40 years? He surely knows this. It also says another person was wounded. How many shots were fired?

    Replies: @JMcG, @Paperback Writer, @James Forrestal

    , @Jack D
    @JohnnyWalker123

    The walkout appeared to be over an unrelated issue - the production was providing the union crew with (cheap) hotel rooms in Albuquerque, a hour's drive from the location while the crew preferred to stay in nearby pricey Santa Fe. This was a relatively low budget movie (by Hollywood standards - every movie requires a massive crew and is going to be costly no matter what but there are degrees of costly) and they were scraping for nickels (except maybe when it came to paying the stars).

    After the union crew walked off they brought in non-union people that day.

    There are two possibilities here:

    1. The non-union people were inferior. Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert. Apparently, Baldwin ignored safety protocols such as never pointing a weapon at humans - if a shot calls for the gun to be pointed at the camera then extra precautions need to be taken so that the camera operator is not in the line of fire, even if the gun is supposedly loaded with blanks. A 24 year old female might not have been assertive or confident enough to overrule a major Hollywood star who was also the producer of the movie. A union armorer would have the backing of all of the other union people on the set so if he called halt the other union people would walk off.

    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.

    Replies: @Corn, @Paperback Writer

    , @Kratoklastes
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Why did Baldwin aim the weapon at a cinematographer? Why did Baldwin then pull the trigger?

    It's pretty clear that this is a manslaughter charge at a minimum: there is no reasonable justification for pointing a weapon - loaded or otherwise - at a cinematographer.

    "I was told it wasn't loaded" is not relevant: there was no reason to point the weapon at any person, except in the context of filming.

    If it was a weapon that can be rendered incapable of discharge (i.e., it has a 'safety') then there was a third element requiring intent: opening the action (i.e., taking off the 'safety').

    Anyone who has had even the most basic training in firearms handling knows that when handed a weapon, always assume that the weapon is loaded and it is 'action-open' (i.e., the safety is off).


    As an aside: this facts to date appear to be fundamentally different to the events surrounding the death of Brandon Lee on the set of 'The Crow' years ago.

    It's gonna suck to be Baldwin from here on out, either way.

    Patsy (a deliberate hot gun) or just stupid: either way would qualify as depraved indifference - and hence murder 2 - if it was a normal person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @Bill Jones
    @JohnnyWalker123

    New Mexico's Manslaughter law includes this line:
    “the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.”

    Pointing a gun, specifically designed to kill people, at a person and then pulling the trigger would certainly seem to be " without due caution and circumspection.",

    I don't see how how Baldwin escapes a manslaughter charge (unless he turns into a black transsexual).

    Replies: @Jack D

  4. Those Chinese and Russian War Bonds are appearing more and more attractive!

  5. Sounds like a fucked up remake of Cameron’s Titanic.

    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    @Henry's Cat

    The last firefighter strutting in slow mo off the passarelle just as a massive explosion consumes the entire background would be a great money shot.

  6. @ic1000
    How I read the lede, first time around:

    A cascade of failures – from a junior enlisted sailor not recognizing a fire at the end of their duty watch to fundamental problems with how the U.S. Navy trains trans sailors to fight fires in shipyards – are responsible for the five-day blaze that cost the service an amphibious warship...
     
    Whether DEI or DIE, diversity first and foremost.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Rest assured, the every last crew member was in ship shape and had all their shit squared away for an admiral’s inspection of their diversity, inclusion and equity training requirements.

  7. A similar fire gutted Russia’s only aircraft carrier, the aging Soviet-era Admiral Kuznetsov in 2019. The fire did enough damage (The ship was in for refitting and repairs to fix damage from a previous incident and to extend it’s life) that there are questions as to if it will be repaired.

    One of it’s unfinished sister ships was bought off the Ukrainian government by a supposed Chinese consortium only interested in turning it into a floating casino but was obviously for delivery to the PLN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning

    They eventually finished the ship and turned it into the main training ship for their new carrier fleet. They built one ship largely based on the old design and are now almost finished a much larger ship of their own design, with a second of the same class and another much larger nuclear carrier also under construction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Altai

    The Putin-inspired Wikipedia article on the Kuznetsov is more upbeat:

    Fire
    In December 2019, a major fire broke out on board Admiral Kuznetsov as work continued on the ship's refit.[83] Two people died and fourteen suffered injuries from the fire and smoke inhalation.[84] Fire-related damage aboard Admiral Kuznetsov is estimated at US$8 million.[85]

    Overhaul and upgrade
    The overhaul and upgrade of Admiral Kuznetsov is expected to be completed in the first half of 2023. The avionics, flight deck with the ski jump, electric equipment, and the power plant will be replaced. The carrier will also receive a new fully domestic takeoff and landing control system, with the onboard airpower remaining the same. The ship is not expected to return to active operations until late 2023.[86]

    , @El Dato
    @Altai

    From Wikipedia:



    Ukraine approached China, India, and Russia as potential buyers. China sent a high-level delegation in 1992, which reported that the ship was in good condition and recommended a purchase. However, the Chinese government declined to purchase the ship because of the international diplomatic situation at the time. Unable to find a buyer, Ukraine left the ship to deteriorate in the elements.

    In 1998, the rusting hulk was sold at auction for $20 million to Agencia Turistica E Diversoes Chong Lot Limitada, a company from Macau. Chong Lot proposed to tow Varyag to Macau, where the ship would be converted into a $200 million floating hotel and casino. Western observers were suspicious, since Chong Lot had no listed telephone number, was not located at its listed address, and was run by former officers in the Chinese Navy. Officials in Macau also denied Chong Lot's application to operate a casino. However, analysts noted that Varyag had deteriorated too much to be used as an operational warship and pointed out that the Chinese Navy was concentrating on submarines. The Soviet carriers Kiev and Minsk had also been sold to China as tourist attractions.

    In January 2015, further details emerged in an interview with Hong Kong-based businessman Xu Zengping by the South China Morning Post. Xu, a former military basketball player, reported that he had been commissioned by the PLAN to purchase the vessel on its behalf, with the floating hotel and casino as a cover story. He was warned that the Chinese Navy did not have the budget to buy the ship, and the Chinese government did not support the purchase. However, Xu was so impressed when touring the ship that he resolved to purchase it using his personal funds. The previous year, Xu had borrowed HK$230 million from a Hong Kong business friend, spending HK$6 million to create Chong Lot as a Macau shell corporation. He described a harrowing negotiation in Kiev, lubricated by bribery and liquor, which helped to arrange victory at the auction. As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier's blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.
     
    Not bad!

    The passage from Ukraine to China was even more troublesome than the purchase. In June 2000, Varyag was taken under tow. As the tugboat approached the Bosphorus, Turkey denied permission for the ship to pass through, citing the risk that a gust of wind would turn the ship widthwise and block the entire strait. Varyag spent the next 16 months being towed around the Black Sea, accruing towing charges of $8,500 a day as Chong Lot stopped paying its bills. The tugboat operator compared its fate to the Yellow Fleet that was stuck in the Suez Canal for eight years, and French thrillseekers even landed a helicopter on the ship. Meanwhile, Chinese officials negotiated with Turkey, offering trade and tourism concessions.

    In August 2001, Turkey relented and agreed to allow the ship to pass. On 1 November 2001, the Bosphorus was cleared of all other traffic as Varyag was towed through. On 2 November, Varyag also passed through the Dardanelles without incident. On 4 November, Varyag was caught in a force 10 gale and broke adrift while passing the Greek island of Skyros. The ship was taken back under tow on 6 November, after one sailor died while attempting to attach the tow lines.
     
    Epic stuff. Maybe China will fire it into space at some point to troll anime fans.

    https://i.postimg.cc/RZ0Mx6ff/space-battleship-yamato-small.jpg
    , @anonymous
    @Altai

    China appears to be taking a more conservative approach.


    Type 001 (Liaoning) - The training carrier was commissioned in 2012 and entered service in 2016.

    Type 002 (Shandong) - In service

    Type 003 - Under construction and expected to enter service in 2023

    Type 004 - Nuclear powered carrier under construction
     
    It was reported in 2019 (and newer reports don't contradict it) that the construction of No. 5 and No. 6 (the supercarriers) was canceled. That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore. If a swarm of drones can attack a carrier and hit the flight deck, then what use is a carrier in a war? If China has three carriers (not counting the training carrier) then it will be able to deploy one carrier at any time (as 1-2 would at anytime be unavailable for maintenance). A single carrier may be useful for some operations but not for a war with the US.

    Replies: @rebel yell, @Altai

  8. So all China needs to take down our 300 ship navy is a man or two loyal to China and willing to go down with the ship. Well thank God everyone here in diverse America loves their fellow countrymen and is loyal to them above their own race. This fire may have been started by a white guy – albeit a white guy entangled in a romantic relationship that would have been impossible 50 years ago. But he has demonstrated for all the world how easy it is to put a U.S. Navy ship out of commission in CurrentYear.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Wilkey

    I think you're right, but I think it's worse than that. The perpetrator does not even need to go down with the ship. He/she/xir can just claim oppression/gender dysphoria/racisms/whatever and get some kind of reduced penalty.

    Replies: @Altai

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Wilkey

    Not sure what you mean by "our" navy. We're just helots. We don't run anything.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Wilkey

    The Chinese don't need no hypersonic missiles, our Achilles Heel is an oily rag and a Bic lighter.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Paperback Writer

  9. “But, the U.S. Navy is supposed to be pretty good at putting out fires. ”

    I spent 14 months of my 4 year enlistment in the Marines aboard two separate LPD’s between 1998 and 2001. The ships’ crews went to General Quarters almost every single day at sea, including Sundays. Every shop on board has its very specific designated duty during general quarters, and firefighting was taken very seriously. Imagine being in the Persian Gulf in August and donning 40 pounds of firefighting gear then running around the cramped un-air conditioned spaces of a navy ship simulating firefighting procedures. The seamen would also practice fire hose handling, usually requiring at least two men to man a single hose due to the enormous force of the water pressure. They also simulated evacuating smoke filled compartments and berthing areas below decks by blindfolding a team of sailors and having them attempt to find their way above deck within a certain period of time.

    So the obvious guess is that intensive firefighting training has given way to more important things, like promoting broads and negroes so their feelings don’t get hurt. Training tends to dip when a ship is in port to begin with, but if the BHR had been in dock for over a year, combined with more vibrant leadership, training probably degenerated to optional attendance to morning formation.

    “Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she ”

    Say no more. Female sailors are about as useful as a male wet nurse.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Mike Tre

    The ship had been in dock for two years, so I was wondering how much of a crew would actually be on board at all, wouldn't most of the crew who brought her into the dockyard have long since been assigned elsewhere?

    , @Dutch Boy
    @Mike Tre

    Reports in the SD Union-Tribune indicate that firefighting training goes by the board when a ship is in a repair facility rather than at sea, which is unfortunate because fire danger is actually greater when the ship is being repaired (welding, etc.). The officer of the deck was informed of smoke but declined to sound an alarm because he thought there might be a benign reason for the smoke (a weenie roast?). This incident is one of many indicating the US Navy is seriously screwed up, particularly the large number of officers accepting bribes to disclose confidential ship movement info to foreign contractors.

    , @The Mestizo
    @Mike Tre

    I was an airman turned shipboard firefighter on our glorious USS Constellation CV-64 on August 2, 1988. I was 100% certain that I would die each time I donned an OBA. I don't blame these boys for shirking duty . The Anglo-Saxon enforced misandry they bear on a constant and daily basis must be intolerable.

  10. @Altai
    A similar fire gutted Russia's only aircraft carrier, the aging Soviet-era Admiral Kuznetsov in 2019. The fire did enough damage (The ship was in for refitting and repairs to fix damage from a previous incident and to extend it's life) that there are questions as to if it will be repaired.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDyCEdv1dlg

    One of it's unfinished sister ships was bought off the Ukrainian government by a supposed Chinese consortium only interested in turning it into a floating casino but was obviously for delivery to the PLN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning

    They eventually finished the ship and turned it into the main training ship for their new carrier fleet. They built one ship largely based on the old design and are now almost finished a much larger ship of their own design, with a second of the same class and another much larger nuclear carrier also under construction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

    Replies: @Cortes, @El Dato, @anonymous

    The Putin-inspired Wikipedia article on the Kuznetsov is more upbeat:

    Fire
    In December 2019, a major fire broke out on board Admiral Kuznetsov as work continued on the ship’s refit.[83] Two people died and fourteen suffered injuries from the fire and smoke inhalation.[84] Fire-related damage aboard Admiral Kuznetsov is estimated at US\$8 million.[85]

    Overhaul and upgrade
    The overhaul and upgrade of Admiral Kuznetsov is expected to be completed in the first half of 2023. The avionics, flight deck with the ski jump, electric equipment, and the power plant will be replaced. The carrier will also receive a new fully domestic takeoff and landing control system, with the onboard airpower remaining the same. The ship is not expected to return to active operations until late 2023.[86]

  11. @Wilkey
    So all China needs to take down our 300 ship navy is a man or two loyal to China and willing to go down with the ship. Well thank God everyone here in diverse America loves their fellow countrymen and is loyal to them above their own race. This fire may have been started by a white guy - albeit a white guy entangled in a romantic relationship that would have been impossible 50 years ago. But he has demonstrated for all the world how easy it is to put a U.S. Navy ship out of commission in CurrentYear.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hypnotoad666

    I think you’re right, but I think it’s worse than that. The perpetrator does not even need to go down with the ship. He/she/xir can just claim oppression/gender dysphoria/racisms/whatever and get some kind of reduced penalty.

    • Replies: @Altai
    @Almost Missouri

    Who needs an inside man? Just pilot a bunch of drones with incendiaries into the many openings and cavities on docked assault carriers and super carriers. Though you'd probably be caught so best to only do it on the brink of war.

  12. Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    Somebody here said this is due to the vinyl insulation on electrical wires, the phenolic plastic around instrument gauges or reams of paperwork and softbound officer’s manuals.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    • Agree: houston 1992
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Trelane


    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.
     
    The ship isn't made of stainless steel. That'd be way to expensive.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.
     
    It didn't burn down to the water-line. It just got burnt out.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_%28LHD-6%29_at_Naval_Base_San_Diego%2C_California_%28USA%29%2C_on_16_July_2020_%28200717-N-SS350-1031%29.JPG/1920px-USS_Bonhomme_Richard_%28LHD-6%29_at_Naval_Base_San_Diego%2C_California_%28USA%29%2C_on_16_July_2020_%28200717-N-SS350-1031%29.JPG

    Replies: @El Dato

    , @Neil Templeton
    @Trelane

    It's gotta be Jews. Or maybe Negros. C'mon man, it can't be me!

    , @AceDeuce
    @Trelane

    Almost all modern aircraft/shipboard wiring has some variant of Teflon insulation. And there are few, if any "gauges"--most instrument displays are digital these days. No "phenolic plastic".

    Replies: @Trelane

    , @Bill Jones
    @Trelane


    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.
     
    I guess they've forgotten to use fireproof wallpaper for the various victim groups safe spaces.
  13. @Almost Missouri
    @Wilkey

    I think you're right, but I think it's worse than that. The perpetrator does not even need to go down with the ship. He/she/xir can just claim oppression/gender dysphoria/racisms/whatever and get some kind of reduced penalty.

    Replies: @Altai

    Who needs an inside man? Just pilot a bunch of drones with incendiaries into the many openings and cavities on docked assault carriers and super carriers. Though you’d probably be caught so best to only do it on the brink of war.

  14. “…a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she headed out to a vending machine after her watch.”

    Well, there’s your problem right there.

  15. Isn’t, for lack of a better term, bumblefucking the default response to a crisis? There is an expression nurses have for new ER employees. “Don’t just do something. Stand there.” Presumably, they are supposed to be thinking about what they should do. Getting out of the way is an important part of any job where people have specialized tasks.

    [MORE]

    I’ve noticed that, at least in some elite professions, so perhaps macho ones, people are expected to sleep very little. When I’m tired I lose ~20 points of IQ. I tested this, taking an IQ sleep deprived (a verbal-math, etc test) and another well-rested the next day (Ravens) so if there were any practice effect, it was small. Twenty-one-point difference. If that’s typical, then chances are pretty good that a sleep-deprived naval crewman is not smart enough to enlist in the Navy. They don’t let really dim people into the military because they make mistakes. How long is a watch, and how many watches in a (near) row does someone have to pull? Remember the female cop who shot a man who was in his apartment when she came “home” after a fifteen-hour shift (16?)? Maybe the incident was an indictment of having women as police, but people who have guns, tasers, and clubs and legal privileges to use them should not be working such long shifts.

    I think people being dumber short of sleep is a feature for some employers. Like, if it takes a 115 IQ to do most of the company’s financials, then having sleep-deprived interns work on them means the ones who get through have 135 IQ, not too shabby. But perhaps some people are hurt more by being short of sleep than others? Like, you might weed out a really bright guy who just needs his sleep, but a 116-er with a tough constitution sails through.

    Stressing people in the military during training totally makes sense, but when the ship is in port for painting (or whatever) sleep deprivation is a asking for hundred million dollar accidents.

    Is the military big on finding a person to blame for everything that goes very badly? I am sure that sometimes there is someone at fault. much more often, though, something big failed because the system has flaws. Looking for someone to blame keeps people from coming forward with what they know that could be improved. Plus, usually, the people who are actually at fault are pretty good at finding sacrificial lambs. Is that a skill we want military rank to depend on?

    Higher-ups “only accepting excellence and success” might work in an extremely honest population with reality-based leadership but for us? With our military? How many Afghan trainee battalions were rated “exceeds standards” (or whatever it was called) because someone honest rated his recruits as “bumblefuckers in all situations” only to have the colonel gently explain to him that rating was not acceptable, and his promotion was on the line. Other trainers notice Senior commanders can resign if they think seniorer commanders are not competent. Lieutenants cannot. Much like free speech in the rest of society is necessary for reality-based communication, impossible standards just mean people get more and more delusional at each level of the organization.

    Much like feminist pressure to have women in military roles where every woman capable of performing the job already has a college athletic scholarship have led to situations where before deployment of a naval ship, a third of the women are pregnant, and no can say “general, sir, female sailors need to be punished for getting pregnant to avoid deployment or required to deploy anyway” kills morale and increases costs. It also has “soft” cultural costs. When honest people cannot get promoted, guess what kind of person does? The relationship to the sort of white people who get promoted in AA-heavy organizations is obvious. The military does not function very well when everyone in command is a dishonest Machiavellian personality.

    Maybe the military contractors need to get a few hundred million dollars to make materials that smell smoky when they burn? That or naval crewpeople need to be explicitly taught that not every fire smells like smoke.

    Why, after having seen empirical proof that the military is incapable of nation-building, one of the roles for which the military’s budget is still sky-high, is no one in media talking about the obvious conclusion — the military needs a drastic downsizing? For patriotic Americans, fewer soldiers mean the military will not be as able to impose martial law.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Rob

    Many thanks.

    Yours is the best exposition of modern management culture I’ve read in years. Thanks again.

  16. In 2018 SDUSD voters approved, or so we’re told, Measure YY, a \$3.5B bond whopper. (This was on top of the \$2.8B/\$2.1B they approved in ’12/ ’08.) Local taxpayers should feel relieved that there’s not another bond question on the ballot next month.

    A district doesn’t try to sell a loan, of that magnitude, in one fell swoop (though it does try to get the money ASAP). Its most recent bond sale occurred just 3 weeks ago: a \$1B “green” bond sale. I presume that was authorized by YY, and green “features” (whatever they are) were added to it so as to make the loan more attractive to wealthy leftist (is there another kind?), muni bond investors.

  17. @Rob
    Isn’t, for lack of a better term, bumblefucking the default response to a crisis? There is an expression nurses have for new ER employees. “Don’t just do something. Stand there.” Presumably, they are supposed to be thinking about what they should do. Getting out of the way is an important part of any job where people have specialized tasks.

    I’ve noticed that, at least in some elite professions, so perhaps macho ones, people are expected to sleep very little. When I’m tired I lose ~20 points of IQ. I tested this, taking an IQ sleep deprived (a verbal-math, etc test) and another well-rested the next day (Ravens) so if there were any practice effect, it was small. Twenty-one-point difference. If that’s typical, then chances are pretty good that a sleep-deprived naval crewman is not smart enough to enlist in the Navy. They don’t let really dim people into the military because they make mistakes. How long is a watch, and how many watches in a (near) row does someone have to pull? Remember the female cop who shot a man who was in his apartment when she came “home” after a fifteen-hour shift (16?)? Maybe the incident was an indictment of having women as police, but people who have guns, tasers, and clubs and legal privileges to use them should not be working such long shifts.

    I think people being dumber short of sleep is a feature for some employers. Like, if it takes a 115 IQ to do most of the company’s financials, then having sleep-deprived interns work on them means the ones who get through have 135 IQ, not too shabby. But perhaps some people are hurt more by being short of sleep than others? Like, you might weed out a really bright guy who just needs his sleep, but a 116-er with a tough constitution sails through.

    Stressing people in the military during training totally makes sense, but when the ship is in port for painting (or whatever) sleep deprivation is a asking for hundred million dollar accidents.

    Is the military big on finding a person to blame for everything that goes very badly? I am sure that sometimes there is someone at fault. much more often, though, something big failed because the system has flaws. Looking for someone to blame keeps people from coming forward with what they know that could be improved. Plus, usually, the people who are actually at fault are pretty good at finding sacrificial lambs. Is that a skill we want military rank to depend on?

    Higher-ups “only accepting excellence and success” might work in an extremely honest population with reality-based leadership but for us? With our military? How many Afghan trainee battalions were rated “exceeds standards” (or whatever it was called) because someone honest rated his recruits as “bumblefuckers in all situations” only to have the colonel gently explain to him that rating was not acceptable, and his promotion was on the line. Other trainers notice Senior commanders can resign if they think seniorer commanders are not competent. Lieutenants cannot. Much like free speech in the rest of society is necessary for reality-based communication, impossible standards just mean people get more and more delusional at each level of the organization.

    Much like feminist pressure to have women in military roles where every woman capable of performing the job already has a college athletic scholarship have led to situations where before deployment of a naval ship, a third of the women are pregnant, and no can say “general, sir, female sailors need to be punished for getting pregnant to avoid deployment or required to deploy anyway” kills morale and increases costs. It also has “soft” cultural costs. When honest people cannot get promoted, guess what kind of person does? The relationship to the sort of white people who get promoted in AA-heavy organizations is obvious. The military does not function very well when everyone in command is a dishonest Machiavellian personality.

    Maybe the military contractors need to get a few hundred million dollars to make materials that smell smoky when they burn? That or naval crewpeople need to be explicitly taught that not every fire smells like smoke.

    Why, after having seen empirical proof that the military is incapable of nation-building, one of the roles for which the military’s budget is still sky-high, is no one in media talking about the obvious conclusion — the military needs a drastic downsizing? For patriotic Americans, fewer soldiers mean the military will not be as able to impose martial law.

    Replies: @Cortes

    Many thanks.

    Yours is the best exposition of modern management culture I’ve read in years. Thanks again.

  18. One person did well: “Commander, Expeditionary Strike Group THREE (ESG-3), the ship’s operational commander who has no assigned role or responsibility in response to a shipboard fire during a maintenance availability, stepped into a command and control vacuum to align the various ship, installation, and external organizations by employing a make-shift emergency response organizational structure.”

    This seems to have been Rear Admiral Philip Sobeck.

    https://www.navy.mil/Leadership/Biographies/BioDisplay/Article/2236434/rear-admiral-philip-sobeck/

  19. By: Sam LaGrone and Gidget Fuentes

    No comment…

  20. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    Similar situations have been the plots of various murder mysteries, sometimes very similar, other times with swords, saddles on bucking broncos (with an attachment cut), or someone at a high altitude suspended by a wire, also cut.

  21. The Navy, and the military in general, are only effective as imperial police against Third Worlders and others without any matching technology. If you’re some Somali pirate toting an AK-47 in a dinghy, the Navy is going to absolutely kick your ass. If you’re some goatf–ker on a hillside in Afghanistan, a Predator drone that you can’t even see will send you to Allah and you’ll never even know what hit you. If you’re some haji in Iraq, getting hit by B-52s from Diego Garcia or Tomcats launched off a carrier in the Persian Gulf 500 miles away has got to suck.

    That being said, Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan proved that even the Third World primitives who cannot match our technology and our deep pockets still do stand more than a fighting chance if they are willing to take casualties.

    But the point is that we have not fought an enemy with similar technological and organizational capacity since 1945. If the Vietnamese, the Taliban, and the Somalis were able to take us, then a technologically advanced nation like China would absolutely humiliate us. The Navy wouldn’t stand a chance — the Chinese would probably hack our electronics, then destroy us with cruise missiles with minimal casualties to themselves.

    A similar situation existed as the British Empire became senescent in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could take the Sepoys, the Sudanese, and the Zulus easily enough, but when they took on the Americans, the Boers, the Irish and the Germans, they didn’t fare quite so well. Britain would not have “won” World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance, and even then the effort bankrupted and ruined them.

    The comeuppance of a once-invincible-but-now-bloated-and-corrupt imperial military is never a pleasant thing to watch… but I fear that we Americans are going to get a chance to see it happen.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    @Dr. X

    I agree. great post.....were there House of Commons inquiries into the Boer War debacles, and what reforms were needed? any links?

    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces e.g. what do their diaries say about the British army performance and , say, the Boer concentration camps?

    Replies: @res

    , @Polistra
    @Dr. X

    Speaking of, what exactly is the fireboat in the top photo doing?

    Replies: @El Dato

    , @Elmer T. Jones
    @Dr. X

    The Chinese also have what, a couple hundred million young men unable to find brides because of their population control policies?

    , @Hibernian
    @Dr. X


    Britain would not have “won” World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance
     
    Plus, to a certain extent, Soviet assistance in WW2, with the caveat that some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution.

    Replies: @Jack D

  22. @Wilkey
    So all China needs to take down our 300 ship navy is a man or two loyal to China and willing to go down with the ship. Well thank God everyone here in diverse America loves their fellow countrymen and is loyal to them above their own race. This fire may have been started by a white guy - albeit a white guy entangled in a romantic relationship that would have been impossible 50 years ago. But he has demonstrated for all the world how easy it is to put a U.S. Navy ship out of commission in CurrentYear.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hypnotoad666

    Not sure what you mean by “our” navy. We’re just helots. We don’t run anything.

  23. Anonymous[333] • Disclaimer says:

    I would imagine that Xi Jinping had access to this report earlier than the U.S. public did and that it brightened his day.

    Isn’t a growing portion of the US public indifferent to the US military? And I mean the old patriotic part of America. How would a more dominant China make their lives worse? Heck, the Chinese might be more compassionate than our current elites. At least less preoccupied with vengeance.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Anonymous

    The wokification of the military is indeed turning people off. I suspect that "thank you for your service" is something that Gen Z veterans, and perhaps even Millennial veterans, won't be able to count on in the coming years as the military turns it's back on the white guys who historically were the backbone of the US military. Really stupid of leadership to desperately pander to both non-whites (who historically didn't have much buy in on serving a country they didn't create, leaving aside their intellectual capabilities) and females (who lack the physical and emotional character to become a part of a cohesive and effective military unity, plus at any time they can get pregnant and be out of action)

    Replies: @Prester John, @Cortes, @Anonymous

  24. Dear U.S. Navy,

    I’ll see your USS Bonhomme Richard and raise you one Admiral Rachel Levine.

  25. A new multi billion dollar,state of the art ship requires two years and \$249 million dollars in repairs and then is arsoned into scrap. Seems like what we have come to expect from government. And in Buffalo, the state is selling off \$207 million of machinery and equipment that New York purchased to equip Elom Musk’s Solar City plant at Riverbend. The equipment is being sold for pennies on the dollar, even though most of it has been in warehouse storage.The plant, \$750 million, plus equipment, was a “gift” from andrew cuomo to Musk, in return for a promise of 1500 jobs…you know the punch line to this joke. “Jobs, we don’t need no stinking jobs.”

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don't know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    Replies: @Muggles, @James B. Shearer, @Mike Tre, @Jim Don Bob

  26. This suggests a surefire way to defeat the all-welcoming US Navy: Join it.

  27. This is not “our” navy anymore either. It saddens me but pretending otherwise isn’t healthy.

    At some point, we need to acknowledge that the world has changed. The country that you grew up in, the country that generally existed fron the mid-1600s to around 1990 is dead.

    It’s gone. You see it everyday. The people running this society hate you. That won’t change. You won’t convince them to accept you and your culture through logic.

    The real logic is that they’re winning. They’re not going to take their foot off the pedal. Why should they?

    Either join the fight as whites or admit that you’re a coward. Stop pretending that there’s a middle ground. Colorblind civic nationalism is cowardice. Just admit it.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute, AceDeuce
    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Along with that, people need to actively discourage any young men they know who are considering going into the military from doing so. Even if your family has a tradition of military service, that will mean nothing to the woke officers under whose command they will serve. Encourage them to learn a trade they can use to support a family instead.

    , @matzahballsgonewrong
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    "Colorblind civic nationalism is cowardice."

    As long as we stick to the race BS, we are doomed as a human species. Until we stop this calptrap forced on by our real enemy, the communist psycopaths of the world, we are doomed.

  28. @Henry's Cat
    Sounds like a fucked up remake of Cameron's Titanic.

    Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    The last firefighter strutting in slow mo off the passarelle just as a massive explosion consumes the entire background would be a great money shot.

  29. • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Reg Cæsar

    Butt-Butt was a good neighbor and had a white sheet placed over him post-bike ride. The witness known as "Fire" was appalled the Baltimore Police didn't know that someone stole the ex-bike rider's bike after the crash. I wonder what happened to the actual fire the fire engine was racing towards? At least good neighbor Butt-Butt got an obituary on the local news.

  30. why does americastan have a navy? there’s no one to fight and nothing to fight for. sad.

  31. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    So far Baldwin faced a lot more scrutiny than Michael Byrd, the Capitol cop who gunned done unarmed Ashli Babbitt.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  32. A clever and malicious firebug can do a lot of damage. Throw in a deficient fire-fighting plan for a refurbed docked ship, and there goes a billion+ dollar asset.

    That said, any high value construction site must be a tempting targets for arsonists. Recall Notre Dame? Don’t insurers require some sort of fire detection or security system(s)? Shouldn’t a navy that seems to run nuclear reactors (reasonably well) be able to do fire detection and suppression???

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @mikeInThe716

    The US Navy's current nuclear program is a remnant of Adm Rickover's rigid discipline!

  33. @Dr. X
    The Navy, and the military in general, are only effective as imperial police against Third Worlders and others without any matching technology. If you're some Somali pirate toting an AK-47 in a dinghy, the Navy is going to absolutely kick your ass. If you're some goatf--ker on a hillside in Afghanistan, a Predator drone that you can't even see will send you to Allah and you'll never even know what hit you. If you're some haji in Iraq, getting hit by B-52s from Diego Garcia or Tomcats launched off a carrier in the Persian Gulf 500 miles away has got to suck.

    That being said, Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan proved that even the Third World primitives who cannot match our technology and our deep pockets still do stand more than a fighting chance if they are willing to take casualties.

    But the point is that we have not fought an enemy with similar technological and organizational capacity since 1945. If the Vietnamese, the Taliban, and the Somalis were able to take us, then a technologically advanced nation like China would absolutely humiliate us. The Navy wouldn't stand a chance -- the Chinese would probably hack our electronics, then destroy us with cruise missiles with minimal casualties to themselves.

    A similar situation existed as the British Empire became senescent in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could take the Sepoys, the Sudanese, and the Zulus easily enough, but when they took on the Americans, the Boers, the Irish and the Germans, they didn't fare quite so well. Britain would not have "won" World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance, and even then the effort bankrupted and ruined them.

    The comeuppance of a once-invincible-but-now-bloated-and-corrupt imperial military is never a pleasant thing to watch... but I fear that we Americans are going to get a chance to see it happen.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Polistra, @Elmer T. Jones, @Hibernian

    I agree. great post…..were there House of Commons inquiries into the Boer War debacles, and what reforms were needed? any links?

    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces e.g. what do their diaries say about the British army performance and , say, the Boer concentration camps?

    • Replies: @res
    @houston 1992


    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces
     
    Yes. Photo of some here.
    https://www.angloboerwar.com/forum/11-research/8824-foreign-attaches

    U.S. attache.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_L%27Hommedieu_Slocum

    He wrote a book: Boer War Operations in South Africa 1899-1901
    Available on Amazon for about $100. Should be out of copyright, but I don't see any electronic versions.

    Replies: @Jack D

  34. Don’t despair, the Chinese navy may be even more lackadaisical and incompetent.

    • Agree: Ron Mexico
    • Replies: @Adept
    @Uncle Dan

    Don't bet on it.

    https://streamable.com/0gpa2y

  35. I was going to contribute a picture of Adm. Spruance to go along with the picture of Adm. Halsey I posted a couple of days ago, and then found this rare picture of the two of them together. It’s easy to forget in peacetime and in this modern era, but very senior military commanders who were contemporaries in WWII (and earlier) sometimes didn’t meet at all, during the course of the war, unless there was a direct reporting line. They were busy with their respective commands, and theaters of responsibility.

    Spruance is on the right.

    • Thanks: Cortes
    • Replies: @Tim
    @PiltdownMan

    I don't think that is Halsey, I think that's Chesty Puller.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

  36. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    What’s the difference between Derek Chauvin and Alec Baldwin? Baldwin actual killed a person.

    • Agree: duncsbaby
    • Replies: @Rob
    @JimDandy

    What’s the difference between Derek Chauvin and fentanyl?

    Fentanyl killed George Floyd.

  37. @Dr. X
    The Navy, and the military in general, are only effective as imperial police against Third Worlders and others without any matching technology. If you're some Somali pirate toting an AK-47 in a dinghy, the Navy is going to absolutely kick your ass. If you're some goatf--ker on a hillside in Afghanistan, a Predator drone that you can't even see will send you to Allah and you'll never even know what hit you. If you're some haji in Iraq, getting hit by B-52s from Diego Garcia or Tomcats launched off a carrier in the Persian Gulf 500 miles away has got to suck.

    That being said, Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan proved that even the Third World primitives who cannot match our technology and our deep pockets still do stand more than a fighting chance if they are willing to take casualties.

    But the point is that we have not fought an enemy with similar technological and organizational capacity since 1945. If the Vietnamese, the Taliban, and the Somalis were able to take us, then a technologically advanced nation like China would absolutely humiliate us. The Navy wouldn't stand a chance -- the Chinese would probably hack our electronics, then destroy us with cruise missiles with minimal casualties to themselves.

    A similar situation existed as the British Empire became senescent in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could take the Sepoys, the Sudanese, and the Zulus easily enough, but when they took on the Americans, the Boers, the Irish and the Germans, they didn't fare quite so well. Britain would not have "won" World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance, and even then the effort bankrupted and ruined them.

    The comeuppance of a once-invincible-but-now-bloated-and-corrupt imperial military is never a pleasant thing to watch... but I fear that we Americans are going to get a chance to see it happen.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Polistra, @Elmer T. Jones, @Hibernian

    Speaking of, what exactly is the fireboat in the top photo doing?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Polistra

    It is cooling the hull, taking energy and ferocity out of the fire on the other side.

  38. I was wrong: the arsonist sailor was, apparently, a white guy

    You’ve heard of catnip. This is what’s called troofnip.

    • LOL: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @profnasty
    @Polistra

    Truly. July 2020. Think BLM.
    I read a report said there was a race related dust-up just prior to the fire breaking out.
    Crickets.

  39. The Bonhomme Richard, too, huh? The namesake of the sailing vessel commanded by John Paul Jones in the Revotionary War.

    I have not yet begun to………..a fire?!…………, f**k it,……………abandon ship!

  40. Damage control is a crucial part of naval operations. For example, at the Battle of the Phillipine Sea (aka “the Marianas Turkey Shoot”), the Japanese flagship carrier, Taiho, was only slightly damaged by a single submarine torpedo hit. It stayed in the fight. But incompetent damage control eventually led to the catstrophic loss of the ship.

    Meanwhile, leaking aviation gasoline accumulating in the forward elevator pit began vaporizing and the fumes soon permeated the upper and lower hangar decks. The crew recognised the danger but, through inadequate training, lack of practice or incompetence, their response was ineffectual. They bungled attempts to pump out the damaged elevator well, and failed to cover the fuel with foam from the hangar’s fire suppression system.[25]

    Taihō’s chief damage control officer eventually ordered the ship’s general ventilation system switched to full capacity and, where possible, all doors and hatches opened to try to rid the ship of fumes. However, this just resulted in saturation of areas previously unexposed to the vapors and increased the chances of accidental or spontaneous ignition.[24][25] About 14:30 that afternoon, 6½ hours after the initial torpedo hit, Taihō was jolted by a severe explosion. A senior staff officer on the bridge saw the flight deck heave up, and the sides of the ship blew out. Taihō dropped out of formation and began to settle in the water, clearly doomed. Though Admiral Ozawa wanted to go down with the ship, his staff prevailed on him to survive and to transfer his flag to the cruiser Haguro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taih%C5%8D

    IIRC, there were several other occassions where the Japanese lost capital ships to incompetent, or just unfortunate, damage control choices.

  41. @Trelane
    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    Somebody here said this is due to the vinyl insulation on electrical wires, the phenolic plastic around instrument gauges or reams of paperwork and softbound officer's manuals.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Neil Templeton, @AceDeuce, @Bill Jones

    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    The ship isn’t made of stainless steel. That’d be way to expensive.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    It didn’t burn down to the water-line. It just got burnt out.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Mr. Anon


    It just got burnt out.
     
    A few weeks away from white civilization should fix that.
  42. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    Apparently, Baldwin was also a producer, with ultimate authority over things like staffing, safety and training. But they were low budget and cutting corners everywhere. This isn’t looking good for him.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Hypnotoad666

    It's the Trump curse ........haters ,rinos, democrat filth beware.

    , @Feryl
    @Hypnotoad666

    I don't recall the name of the movie, but a few years back a small crew in Georgia was "stealing" shots on a rail bridge. A train came and at least one person was struck and killed. Sadly, the pressure to do things quick and cheap leads to dangerous situations. The infamous triple homicide on the set of the Twilight Zone movie in 1981 (three actors including two kids were killed by a crashed helicopter) was caused by John Landis using unauthorized child labor, shooting in a dark and smoky environment (from pyrotechnics and chopper exhaust), and firing chopper pilots who refused to perform the dangerous stunts Landis insisted upon.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Baldwin was also a producer"

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it's loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he'll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he's a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    Replies: @Jack D, @JohnnyWalker123, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666

  43. @Wilkey
    So all China needs to take down our 300 ship navy is a man or two loyal to China and willing to go down with the ship. Well thank God everyone here in diverse America loves their fellow countrymen and is loyal to them above their own race. This fire may have been started by a white guy - albeit a white guy entangled in a romantic relationship that would have been impossible 50 years ago. But he has demonstrated for all the world how easy it is to put a U.S. Navy ship out of commission in CurrentYear.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hypnotoad666

    The Chinese don’t need no hypersonic missiles, our Achilles Heel is an oily rag and a Bic lighter.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Hypnotoad666

    Cute Chinese girl and congressman on intelligence committee with yellow fever beats oily rag.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Hypnotoad666

    But they do have them, can anyone explicate in informed fashion what this means for US aircraft carriers in the Pacific?

  44. @Mike Tre
    "But, the U.S. Navy is supposed to be pretty good at putting out fires. "

    I spent 14 months of my 4 year enlistment in the Marines aboard two separate LPD's between 1998 and 2001. The ships' crews went to General Quarters almost every single day at sea, including Sundays. Every shop on board has its very specific designated duty during general quarters, and firefighting was taken very seriously. Imagine being in the Persian Gulf in August and donning 40 pounds of firefighting gear then running around the cramped un-air conditioned spaces of a navy ship simulating firefighting procedures. The seamen would also practice fire hose handling, usually requiring at least two men to man a single hose due to the enormous force of the water pressure. They also simulated evacuating smoke filled compartments and berthing areas below decks by blindfolding a team of sailors and having them attempt to find their way above deck within a certain period of time.

    So the obvious guess is that intensive firefighting training has given way to more important things, like promoting broads and negroes so their feelings don't get hurt. Training tends to dip when a ship is in port to begin with, but if the BHR had been in dock for over a year, combined with more vibrant leadership, training probably degenerated to optional attendance to morning formation.

    "Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she "

    Say no more. Female sailors are about as useful as a male wet nurse.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Dutch Boy, @The Mestizo

    The ship had been in dock for two years, so I was wondering how much of a crew would actually be on board at all, wouldn’t most of the crew who brought her into the dockyard have long since been assigned elsewhere?

  45. @Trelane
    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    Somebody here said this is due to the vinyl insulation on electrical wires, the phenolic plastic around instrument gauges or reams of paperwork and softbound officer's manuals.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Neil Templeton, @AceDeuce, @Bill Jones

    It’s gotta be Jews. Or maybe Negros. C’mon man, it can’t be me!

  46. @Trelane
    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    Somebody here said this is due to the vinyl insulation on electrical wires, the phenolic plastic around instrument gauges or reams of paperwork and softbound officer's manuals.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Neil Templeton, @AceDeuce, @Bill Jones

    Almost all modern aircraft/shipboard wiring has some variant of Teflon insulation. And there are few, if any “gauges”–most instrument displays are digital these days. No “phenolic plastic”.

    • Replies: @Trelane
    @AceDeuce

    So what caught fire? Bedding, uniforms, carpeting, wooden furniture? It's hard to believe a modern naval vessel couldn't be made to be fireproof.

    Even if you permit flammable materials onboard you can still install sprinkler systems like we do with all apartment buildings lacking fire escapes.

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    Replies: @El Dato, @bomag

  47. This warms my heart

    The U.S. Military will never be used against China, it will however be used against Americans like Me.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Thoughts

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren't you relieved?

    https://twitter.com/NoahPollak/status/1451705222531674112

    Reminder to use "private browsing" to get full service from Jack's body harvesting outfit w/o having to "log on".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Abolish_public_education, @Mr. Anon

    , @tyrone
    @Thoughts

    Wait a second!......sleepy Joe said we would defend Taiwan .......don't worry he's on top of it like an eight year old girl's scalp.

  48. The Royal Navy could teach the U..S Navy something about taking fire safety procedures seriously.

    ****

    Sovereign became leaky and defective with age during the reign of William III, and was laid up at Chatham Dockyards for repairs late in 1695.

    She ignominiously ended her days, in mid January 1696,[3][4] by being burnt to the water line as a result of having been set on fire by accident. A bosun, who was on night watch, left a candle burning unattended. Admitting to his fault he was court-martialled on 27 January 1696[16] and not only publicly flogged but also imprisoned at Marshalsea for the rest of his life

  49. I thought the guy they suspect set the fire was angry for being bounced out of the SEALs training program. To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @CW Acumen

    As the war over that Troy shows, pussy makes men do crazy stuff.

    It's always been that way.

    , @Buck Ransom
    @CW Acumen

    Could be that the official story is a coverup, because the real account would be even more pathetic and humiliating for the MIC and TPTB. They lie about everything else, so why would this be any different?

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @CW Acumen


    To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.
     
    I spent a few semesters at an engineering school. Women were outnumbered something like 10- or 20-1. And the men were primarily nerds. That would breed a lot of competition and resentment-- and there was a state teacher's college not too far away that took care of most, perhaps all, of the imbalance.

    Now extrapolate this problem to, say, Point Nemo, where the closest other women are on the International Space Station...


    What I want to know is, why does the Public Health Service get to have an admiral, but the Coast Guard not? Why didn't they accommod(ore)ate us?
  50. @Uncle Dan
    Don’t despair, the Chinese navy may be even more lackadaisical and incompetent.

    Replies: @Adept

    Don’t bet on it.

    https://streamable.com/0gpa2y

  51. In U.S. naval history, several of the most heroic passages are fire-fighting efforts that saved stricken ships from destruction.

    When people mention flaming in connection with the military these days, they don’t mean actual fires.

    • LOL: El Dato
  52. @Thoughts
    This warms my heart

    The U.S. Military will never be used against China, it will however be used against Americans like Me.

    Replies: @El Dato, @tyrone

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren’t you relieved?

    Reminder to use “private browsing” to get full service from Jack’s body harvesting outfit w/o having to “log on”.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @El Dato


    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

     

    Furthermore, historical reminder that the original Reign of Terror was applied by the French revolutionary government to the population. A bit like today come to think of it.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @El Dato

    NSBA's revenues are ~$18M/yr. The bulk ($8M) comes from memberships paid by state school boards (who, in turn, collect fees from county/local boards). It makes $6M from its annual conference (no doubt 90% of attendees are school boarders). IOW, at the brass tacks, its operating funds are skimmed off of local property taxes.

    (The executive director of this left-wing, pro-public education, special interest group receives total compensation worth ~$440K. His 9-member management team each make ~$200K on average.)

    In case you weren't aware, in years when the legislature is in-session, school districts also directly retain lobbyists (usually term-limited out, ex-politician, government worker-retirees), @ $500/hr + expenses, in order to work their state legislatures for more money. Considering that DEM lawmakers are teachers' union stooges, and their GOP colleagues are big supporters of public education anyway, one wonders why school districts feel the need to spend extra on getting their messages heard.

    The government taxes people (like A_p_e) in order to spend the money on lobbying the government for more government (school funding). Obscenely unethical.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @El Dato


    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’
     
    Aren’t you relieved?
     
    Of course they don't regret having said it. They only regret having got caught saying it.
  53. “She… ”

    • Agree: El Dato
  54. “Burning Bonhomme Richard” is either a commemorative plastic kit or a good grundge band.

    That happened at 9:51 a.m. on the upper vehicle deck, where the city firefighters on their own initiative attacked a fire along the space’s starboard side. While unfamiliar with the ship’s layout, they told investigators, they nevertheless reached one area of the fire and fought the blaze for at least another 30 minutes before conditions deteriorated with the fire’s continuing multi-fingered spread.


    “What are you doing Ripley! Get out of the driver’s seat!!”

    Also, CTRL-F “button”.

    Still photo of AFFF push-buttons for sprinkler groups 15 and 16 serving Lower V (16 on left; 15 on right). These push-buttons are in Upper V amidships. An open hatch obstructs visibility of the push-buttons. US Navy Photo

    Worse, the ship’s installed AFFF systems weren’t put into action “in part because maintenance was not properly performed to keep it ready and in part because the crew lacked familiarity with capability and availability,” the lead investigator wrote.

    Aka. “Where is the button!?”

    I hope the nuclear submarine force still knows about Rickover, a great political player with showman skills (possibly seeding apocryphal stories about himself because some are just so Sillycon Valley that they can’t be literally true), handler of men and manager.

    “Human experience shows that people, not organizations or management systems, get things done.” — Admiral Hyman Rickover

    Basic Principles for Doing Your Job! by Admiral Hyman G. Rickover U.S.N.

    Copied from here: Excerpts from remarks that Admiral Rickover made to a meeting of the Order of 5-48, an organization of current and retired Naval Reserve officers who are members of, or other-wise connected with, the United States Congress.

    Since the end of World War II, the number of high grade civilians in relation to the total (federal government) workforce has steadily increased to the point where we have more managers and checkers, than we have doers. Our senior employees have been schooled in this ‘new’ philosophy which holds that, as long as a person is well-versed in a few simple rules of how to handle people and situations, he need not know anything about the details of the programs he is managing or the increasingly sophisticated technologies on which many of these programs are based. This has allowed the non-professional to achieve high status and high pay within the government. If trouble erupts, they can then blame those beneath them or those who preceded them. Until this false concept is rooted out of the federal government, we cannot expect the American people to retain their trust in government. In fact, they should not. I do not hold much hope for this being done before a major disaster befalls the United States. But I can provide some basic principles for doing job which I have followed for over 50 years government service and which I have instilled in my senior managers. If these principles were emphasized, they would go a long way toward reversing their current trend.

    These Principles are:

    Ownership

    A person doing a job – any job – must feel that he owns it and that he will remain on that job indefinitely. Lack of commitment to the present job will be perceived by those who work for him, and they will also tend not to care. If he feels he owns his job and acts accordingly, he need not worry about his next job.

    Responsibility

    Along with Ownership comes the need for full acceptance of full responsibility for the work. Shared responsibility means that no one is responsible. Unless one person who is truly responsible can be identified when something goes wrong, then no one has really been responsible.

    Attention to Detail

    A tendency among managers, particularly as they move to higher positions, is to think they no longer need to be concerned with details. If the boss is not concerned about details, his subordinates also will not consider them important.

    Priorities

    If you are to manage your job, you must set priorities. Too many people let the job set the priorities. You must apply self-discipline to ensure your energy is applied where it is most needed.

    Know What is Going On

    You must establish simple and direct means to find out what is going on in detail in the area of your responsibility. I require regular periodic reports directly to me from personnel throughout my program.

    Hard Work

    For this, there is no substitute . A manager who does not work hard or devote extra effort cannot expect his people to do so. You must set the example. Hard work compensates for many short-comings. You may not be the smartest or most knowledgeable person, but if you dedicate yourself to the job and put in the required effort, your people will follow your lead.

    Checking Up

    An essential element of carrying out my work is the need to have it checked by an independent source. Even the most dedicated individual makes mistakes.

    Facing the Facts

    Another principle for managing a successful program is to resist the natural human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. It is not easy to admit that what you thought was correct did not turn out that way. If conditions require it, one must face the facts and brutally make needed changes despite considerable costs and schedule delays. The man in charge must personally set the example in this area.

    • Thanks: Old Prude, Voltarde
    • Replies: @Elmer T. Jones
    @El Dato

    I think of the troubles I had in software engineering, which often boiled down to being managed by people who had no programming experience. Or worse, a PhD who wrote some Fortran code in college and thinks he understands it all. To them, software has no weight, therefor takes no time to write. It can be expanded as needed to meet schedule, which can be arbitrarily changed depending on the manager's mood, or the pressure they are getting from their managers. Since software has no mass, it also should have no cost. If the code was in progress before you arrived, they will assure you that "it was all working when Fred left, and he was a genius, everybody agrees". As for requirements, we told you what it was supposed to do, and you said you had everything you needed to code it. Missing features are your fault and you will have to put in heroic unpaid hours to "get it done". This is often followed by questions of "is it done yet?" or "when are you going to have it done?". Which themselves are followed up with "we can get an intern to do this" and "if you can't do it we will find someone who can", and "we can't afford this". The imaginary intern is the next Steve Jobs, really. Ready to hit the ground running with all the latest high-tech skills. Then there are the "co-workers"...

    Replies: @El Dato

    , @2BR
    @El Dato

    Look what they did to Rickover (Reagan administration- the “conservative” heroes) when they wanted their 600 ship Navy. Rickover if you recalled objected to contractor cost overruns. You can mark that as the very beginning of the end. It took a while for the rot to spread but the tree is now completely hollowed out.

  55. Kind of puts the DIE in DIAF …

    Has anyone checked to see if they didn’t torch it for the insurance?

  56. @CW Acumen
    I thought the guy they suspect set the fire was angry for being bounced out of the SEALs training program. To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buck Ransom, @Reg Cæsar

    As the war over that Troy shows, pussy makes men do crazy stuff.

    It’s always been that way.

  57. @Polistra
    @Dr. X

    Speaking of, what exactly is the fireboat in the top photo doing?

    Replies: @El Dato

    It is cooling the hull, taking energy and ferocity out of the fire on the other side.

  58. And it wasn’t even loaded with bombs, the way one of Spruance’s carriers would have been.

  59. @El Dato
    @Thoughts

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren't you relieved?

    https://twitter.com/NoahPollak/status/1451705222531674112

    Reminder to use "private browsing" to get full service from Jack's body harvesting outfit w/o having to "log on".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Abolish_public_education, @Mr. Anon

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Furthermore, historical reminder that the original Reign of Terror was applied by the French revolutionary government to the population. A bit like today come to think of it.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @Pericles

    Bad News: According to the Daily Mail, Attorney General Garland is nevertheless proceeding full steam ahead in pursuit of the fictitious malefactors!

    Replies: @El Dato

  60. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    If a gun loaded with blanks is fired at another person at point blank range it could kill them. Baldwin has been working with prop firearms for what? 40 years? He surely knows this. It also says another person was wounded. How many shots were fired?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Mike Tre

    British papers are reporting a live cartridge was loaded. I just can’t imagine.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Mike Tre


    How many shots were fired?
     
    One.
    , @James Forrestal
    @Mike Tre

    https://twitter.com/stone_toss/status/1451414778719653913

    Replies: @Bill Jones

  61. @Thoughts
    This warms my heart

    The U.S. Military will never be used against China, it will however be used against Americans like Me.

    Replies: @El Dato, @tyrone

    Wait a second!……sleepy Joe said we would defend Taiwan …….don’t worry he’s on top of it like an eight year old girl’s scalp.

  62. @Hypnotoad666
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Apparently, Baldwin was also a producer, with ultimate authority over things like staffing, safety and training. But they were low budget and cutting corners everywhere. This isn't looking good for him.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Feryl, @SunBakedSuburb

    It’s the Trump curse ……..haters ,rinos, democrat filth beware.

  63. @Hypnotoad666
    @Wilkey

    The Chinese don't need no hypersonic missiles, our Achilles Heel is an oily rag and a Bic lighter.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Paperback Writer

    Cute Chinese girl and congressman on intelligence committee with yellow fever beats oily rag.

    • LOL: Hibernian
  64. @Altai
    A similar fire gutted Russia's only aircraft carrier, the aging Soviet-era Admiral Kuznetsov in 2019. The fire did enough damage (The ship was in for refitting and repairs to fix damage from a previous incident and to extend it's life) that there are questions as to if it will be repaired.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDyCEdv1dlg

    One of it's unfinished sister ships was bought off the Ukrainian government by a supposed Chinese consortium only interested in turning it into a floating casino but was obviously for delivery to the PLN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning

    They eventually finished the ship and turned it into the main training ship for their new carrier fleet. They built one ship largely based on the old design and are now almost finished a much larger ship of their own design, with a second of the same class and another much larger nuclear carrier also under construction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

    Replies: @Cortes, @El Dato, @anonymous

    From Wikipedia:

    Ukraine approached China, India, and Russia as potential buyers. China sent a high-level delegation in 1992, which reported that the ship was in good condition and recommended a purchase. However, the Chinese government declined to purchase the ship because of the international diplomatic situation at the time. Unable to find a buyer, Ukraine left the ship to deteriorate in the elements.

    In 1998, the rusting hulk was sold at auction for \$20 million to Agencia Turistica E Diversoes Chong Lot Limitada, a company from Macau. Chong Lot proposed to tow Varyag to Macau, where the ship would be converted into a \$200 million floating hotel and casino. Western observers were suspicious, since Chong Lot had no listed telephone number, was not located at its listed address, and was run by former officers in the Chinese Navy. Officials in Macau also denied Chong Lot’s application to operate a casino. However, analysts noted that Varyag had deteriorated too much to be used as an operational warship and pointed out that the Chinese Navy was concentrating on submarines. The Soviet carriers Kiev and Minsk had also been sold to China as tourist attractions.

    In January 2015, further details emerged in an interview with Hong Kong-based businessman Xu Zengping by the South China Morning Post. Xu, a former military basketball player, reported that he had been commissioned by the PLAN to purchase the vessel on its behalf, with the floating hotel and casino as a cover story. He was warned that the Chinese Navy did not have the budget to buy the ship, and the Chinese government did not support the purchase. However, Xu was so impressed when touring the ship that he resolved to purchase it using his personal funds. The previous year, Xu had borrowed HK\$230 million from a Hong Kong business friend, spending HK\$6 million to create Chong Lot as a Macau shell corporation. He described a harrowing negotiation in Kiev, lubricated by bribery and liquor, which helped to arrange victory at the auction. As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier’s blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.

    Not bad!

    The passage from Ukraine to China was even more troublesome than the purchase. In June 2000, Varyag was taken under tow. As the tugboat approached the Bosphorus, Turkey denied permission for the ship to pass through, citing the risk that a gust of wind would turn the ship widthwise and block the entire strait. Varyag spent the next 16 months being towed around the Black Sea, accruing towing charges of \$8,500 a day as Chong Lot stopped paying its bills. The tugboat operator compared its fate to the Yellow Fleet that was stuck in the Suez Canal for eight years, and French thrillseekers even landed a helicopter on the ship. Meanwhile, Chinese officials negotiated with Turkey, offering trade and tourism concessions.

    In August 2001, Turkey relented and agreed to allow the ship to pass. On 1 November 2001, the Bosphorus was cleared of all other traffic as Varyag was towed through. On 2 November, Varyag also passed through the Dardanelles without incident. On 4 November, Varyag was caught in a force 10 gale and broke adrift while passing the Greek island of Skyros. The ship was taken back under tow on 6 November, after one sailor died while attempting to attach the tow lines.

    Epic stuff. Maybe China will fire it into space at some point to troll anime fans.

  65. @Dr. X
    The Navy, and the military in general, are only effective as imperial police against Third Worlders and others without any matching technology. If you're some Somali pirate toting an AK-47 in a dinghy, the Navy is going to absolutely kick your ass. If you're some goatf--ker on a hillside in Afghanistan, a Predator drone that you can't even see will send you to Allah and you'll never even know what hit you. If you're some haji in Iraq, getting hit by B-52s from Diego Garcia or Tomcats launched off a carrier in the Persian Gulf 500 miles away has got to suck.

    That being said, Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan proved that even the Third World primitives who cannot match our technology and our deep pockets still do stand more than a fighting chance if they are willing to take casualties.

    But the point is that we have not fought an enemy with similar technological and organizational capacity since 1945. If the Vietnamese, the Taliban, and the Somalis were able to take us, then a technologically advanced nation like China would absolutely humiliate us. The Navy wouldn't stand a chance -- the Chinese would probably hack our electronics, then destroy us with cruise missiles with minimal casualties to themselves.

    A similar situation existed as the British Empire became senescent in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could take the Sepoys, the Sudanese, and the Zulus easily enough, but when they took on the Americans, the Boers, the Irish and the Germans, they didn't fare quite so well. Britain would not have "won" World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance, and even then the effort bankrupted and ruined them.

    The comeuppance of a once-invincible-but-now-bloated-and-corrupt imperial military is never a pleasant thing to watch... but I fear that we Americans are going to get a chance to see it happen.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Polistra, @Elmer T. Jones, @Hibernian

    The Chinese also have what, a couple hundred million young men unable to find brides because of their population control policies?

  66. @El Dato
    "Burning Bonhomme Richard" is either a commemorative plastic kit or a good grundge band.

    https://i.postimg.cc/wTmTrVTy/plastic-kit.jpg


    That happened at 9:51 a.m. on the upper vehicle deck, where the city firefighters on their own initiative attacked a fire along the space’s starboard side. While unfamiliar with the ship’s layout, they told investigators, they nevertheless reached one area of the fire and fought the blaze for at least another 30 minutes before conditions deteriorated with the fire’s continuing multi-fingered spread.

     

    https://i.postimg.cc/SQzfgB8W/ripley-takes-over.jpg

    "What are you doing Ripley! Get out of the driver's seat!!"

    Also, CTRL-F "button".

    Still photo of AFFF push-buttons for sprinkler groups 15 and 16 serving Lower V (16 on left; 15 on right). These push-buttons are in Upper V amidships. An open hatch obstructs visibility of the push-buttons. US Navy Photo

    Worse, the ship’s installed AFFF systems weren’t put into action “in part because maintenance was not properly performed to keep it ready and in part because the crew lacked familiarity with capability and availability,” the lead investigator wrote.

     

    Aka. "Where is the button!?"

    I hope the nuclear submarine force still knows about Rickover, a great political player with showman skills (possibly seeding apocryphal stories about himself because some are just so Sillycon Valley that they can't be literally true), handler of men and manager.

    “Human experience shows that people, not organizations or management systems, get things done.” — Admiral Hyman Rickover

    Basic Principles for Doing Your Job! by Admiral Hyman G. Rickover U.S.N.

    Copied from here: Excerpts from remarks that Admiral Rickover made to a meeting of the Order of 5-48, an organization of current and retired Naval Reserve officers who are members of, or other-wise connected with, the United States Congress.


    Since the end of World War II, the number of high grade civilians in relation to the total (federal government) workforce has steadily increased to the point where we have more managers and checkers, than we have doers. Our senior employees have been schooled in this 'new' philosophy which holds that, as long as a person is well-versed in a few simple rules of how to handle people and situations, he need not know anything about the details of the programs he is managing or the increasingly sophisticated technologies on which many of these programs are based. This has allowed the non-professional to achieve high status and high pay within the government. If trouble erupts, they can then blame those beneath them or those who preceded them. Until this false concept is rooted out of the federal government, we cannot expect the American people to retain their trust in government. In fact, they should not. I do not hold much hope for this being done before a major disaster befalls the United States. But I can provide some basic principles for doing job which I have followed for over 50 years government service and which I have instilled in my senior managers. If these principles were emphasized, they would go a long way toward reversing their current trend.

    These Principles are:

    Ownership

    A person doing a job - any job - must feel that he owns it and that he will remain on that job indefinitely. Lack of commitment to the present job will be perceived by those who work for him, and they will also tend not to care. If he feels he owns his job and acts accordingly, he need not worry about his next job.

    Responsibility

    Along with Ownership comes the need for full acceptance of full responsibility for the work. Shared responsibility means that no one is responsible. Unless one person who is truly responsible can be identified when something goes wrong, then no one has really been responsible.

    Attention to Detail

    A tendency among managers, particularly as they move to higher positions, is to think they no longer need to be concerned with details. If the boss is not concerned about details, his subordinates also will not consider them important.

    Priorities

    If you are to manage your job, you must set priorities. Too many people let the job set the priorities. You must apply self-discipline to ensure your energy is applied where it is most needed.

    Know What is Going On

    You must establish simple and direct means to find out what is going on in detail in the area of your responsibility. I require regular periodic reports directly to me from personnel throughout my program.

    Hard Work

    For this, there is no substitute . A manager who does not work hard or devote extra effort cannot expect his people to do so. You must set the example. Hard work compensates for many short-comings. You may not be the smartest or most knowledgeable person, but if you dedicate yourself to the job and put in the required effort, your people will follow your lead.

    Checking Up

    An essential element of carrying out my work is the need to have it checked by an independent source. Even the most dedicated individual makes mistakes.

    Facing the Facts

    Another principle for managing a successful program is to resist the natural human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. It is not easy to admit that what you thought was correct did not turn out that way. If conditions require it, one must face the facts and brutally make needed changes despite considerable costs and schedule delays. The man in charge must personally set the example in this area.

     

    Replies: @Elmer T. Jones, @2BR

    I think of the troubles I had in software engineering, which often boiled down to being managed by people who had no programming experience. Or worse, a PhD who wrote some Fortran code in college and thinks he understands it all. To them, software has no weight, therefor takes no time to write. It can be expanded as needed to meet schedule, which can be arbitrarily changed depending on the manager’s mood, or the pressure they are getting from their managers. Since software has no mass, it also should have no cost. If the code was in progress before you arrived, they will assure you that “it was all working when Fred left, and he was a genius, everybody agrees”. As for requirements, we told you what it was supposed to do, and you said you had everything you needed to code it. Missing features are your fault and you will have to put in heroic unpaid hours to “get it done”. This is often followed by questions of “is it done yet?” or “when are you going to have it done?”. Which themselves are followed up with “we can get an intern to do this” and “if you can’t do it we will find someone who can”, and “we can’t afford this”. The imaginary intern is the next Steve Jobs, really. Ready to hit the ground running with all the latest high-tech skills. Then there are the “co-workers”…

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Elmer T. Jones

    Been there, lived it.

    Software engineering/development in most settings outside of the big providers who can demand serious money seems to be a fucking joke nowadays and then you get managed by a sociopath who just received his MBA.

  67. The guy who burned down the Bonhomme Richard was a total loser. ‘I love decks,’ indeed.

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/sailor-hated-navy-torched-1-025604670.html

    The Burning of the Bonhomme Richard reminds me a lot of the 2012 Bonfire of the USS Miami. The USS Miami, a Los Angeles-class attack submarine, burned down in the shipyard in Portland, Maine, after a painter set what he thought would be a small fire to trigger a fire alarm so he could go home early. Casey Fury was on Ambien and supposedly suffered a panic attack on the day of the fury. Sniffing all that paint also probably didn’t help his sanity.

    The subtext of both stories–the decline in competence, patriotism, and sanity among founding stock, white working class Americans–is not promising for the future of our country. Meanwhile, what has the Navy’s leadership been doing during this time of crisis?

  68. @mikeInThe716
    A clever and malicious firebug can do a lot of damage. Throw in a deficient fire-fighting plan for a refurbed docked ship, and there goes a billion+ dollar asset.

    That said, any high value construction site must be a tempting targets for arsonists. Recall Notre Dame? Don't insurers require some sort of fire detection or security system(s)? Shouldn't a navy that seems to run nuclear reactors (reasonably well) be able to do fire detection and suppression???

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    The US Navy’s current nuclear program is a remnant of Adm Rickover’s rigid discipline!

  69. The first hint of trouble came when the Navy put girl sailors on ships.

  70. @Mr. Anon
    @Trelane


    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.
     
    The ship isn't made of stainless steel. That'd be way to expensive.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.
     
    It didn't burn down to the water-line. It just got burnt out.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_%28LHD-6%29_at_Naval_Base_San_Diego%2C_California_%28USA%29%2C_on_16_July_2020_%28200717-N-SS350-1031%29.JPG/1920px-USS_Bonhomme_Richard_%28LHD-6%29_at_Naval_Base_San_Diego%2C_California_%28USA%29%2C_on_16_July_2020_%28200717-N-SS350-1031%29.JPG

    Replies: @El Dato

    It just got burnt out.

    A few weeks away from white civilization should fix that.

  71. @Hypnotoad666
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Apparently, Baldwin was also a producer, with ultimate authority over things like staffing, safety and training. But they were low budget and cutting corners everywhere. This isn't looking good for him.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Feryl, @SunBakedSuburb

    I don’t recall the name of the movie, but a few years back a small crew in Georgia was “stealing” shots on a rail bridge. A train came and at least one person was struck and killed. Sadly, the pressure to do things quick and cheap leads to dangerous situations. The infamous triple homicide on the set of the Twilight Zone movie in 1981 (three actors including two kids were killed by a crashed helicopter) was caused by John Landis using unauthorized child labor, shooting in a dark and smoky environment (from pyrotechnics and chopper exhaust), and firing chopper pilots who refused to perform the dangerous stunts Landis insisted upon.

  72. @Anonymous

    I would imagine that Xi Jinping had access to this report earlier than the U.S. public did and that it brightened his day.
     
    Isn’t a growing portion of the US public indifferent to the US military? And I mean the old patriotic part of America. How would a more dominant China make their lives worse? Heck, the Chinese might be more compassionate than our current elites. At least less preoccupied with vengeance.

    Replies: @Feryl

    The wokification of the military is indeed turning people off. I suspect that “thank you for your service” is something that Gen Z veterans, and perhaps even Millennial veterans, won’t be able to count on in the coming years as the military turns it’s back on the white guys who historically were the backbone of the US military. Really stupid of leadership to desperately pander to both non-whites (who historically didn’t have much buy in on serving a country they didn’t create, leaving aside their intellectual capabilities) and females (who lack the physical and emotional character to become a part of a cohesive and effective military unity, plus at any time they can get pregnant and be out of action)

    • Replies: @Prester John
    @Feryl

    It's all of one piece--a society locked in death-dealing decadence. It happens to all societies and we're no different. Sit back. Resign yourself to this slow and steady plunge into what amounts to a septic tank. The only regret is that we won't be around for the inevitable rebirth.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Cortes
    @Feryl

    Around 10 years ago I had a long layover at Dallas awaiting a flight to London and saw a young guy in military gear being given the “Thank you for your service” bit by an overweight civilian not much older than the soldier. The encounter looked cordial enough but the civilian moved away and the look on the young guy in uniform’s face was one of anger.

    , @Anonymous
    @Feryl

    It should be obvious by now that the people running the country are far more afraid of ordinary white guys than of any foreign enemy. They want them out of the army, the navy, the police, and every other armed force.

    The resulting 'woke' military will be useless in a serious war, but will be no threat to the rulers, which is the only thing they care about. (See what Stalin did to the Red Army in the 1930s for another example.)

  73. The only comparison with John Paul Jones’ ship of the same name is that both caught fire.

  74. @Feryl
    @Anonymous

    The wokification of the military is indeed turning people off. I suspect that "thank you for your service" is something that Gen Z veterans, and perhaps even Millennial veterans, won't be able to count on in the coming years as the military turns it's back on the white guys who historically were the backbone of the US military. Really stupid of leadership to desperately pander to both non-whites (who historically didn't have much buy in on serving a country they didn't create, leaving aside their intellectual capabilities) and females (who lack the physical and emotional character to become a part of a cohesive and effective military unity, plus at any time they can get pregnant and be out of action)

    Replies: @Prester John, @Cortes, @Anonymous

    It’s all of one piece–a society locked in death-dealing decadence. It happens to all societies and we’re no different. Sit back. Resign yourself to this slow and steady plunge into what amounts to a septic tank. The only regret is that we won’t be around for the inevitable rebirth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Prester John

    But there is no “ inevitable“ rebirth. Once the racial demographics of a country are permanently changed, it’s forever a different country.

    Once you become Brazil or Columbia or India, you’re done. Nothing but centuries of stagnation to look forward to.

  75. a white guy upset over a romantic setback with a sailorette.

    Good Lord, what in the world has happened?

    Heterosexuals in the Navy!

  76. @Buffalo Joe
    A new multi billion dollar,state of the art ship requires two years and $249 million dollars in repairs and then is arsoned into scrap. Seems like what we have come to expect from government. And in Buffalo, the state is selling off $207 million of machinery and equipment that New York purchased to equip Elom Musk's Solar City plant at Riverbend. The equipment is being sold for pennies on the dollar, even though most of it has been in warehouse storage.The plant, $750 million, plus equipment, was a "gift" from andrew cuomo to Musk, in return for a promise of 1500 jobs...you know the punch line to this joke. "Jobs, we don't need no stinking jobs."

    Replies: @additionalMike

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @additionalMike


    But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.
     
    About two months ago (or longer) when this stuff was news, Tucker Carlson had most of a show about the Dem politics behind the Andy Cuomo meltdown.

    He spent nearly 20 minutes on it and interviewed a NY journalist familiar with state insider politics.

    Seems that the final shove out the door was an inside job, per this report. The now female Gov. and her cronies, most of whom were not Cuomo flunkies, were long aware of St. Cuomo's failings but of course kept quiet. But as things surfaced rapidly and repeatedly these second tier grifters smelt blood in the waters. As you might expect they all really hated El Supremo. Or Don Supremo.

    So they quietly circulated anti Cuomo petitions and took straw votes and dropped tidbits to hungry media scandal mongers. Once the United Front of replacements kicked in as more lies were uncovered, the jig was up.

    So far as I know this was the only national media coverage of that. Even the WSJ failed to cover this internal coup de etat in much detail.

    But there are always crew chiefs and underbosses who are happy to see the Don get his.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    , @James B. Shearer
    @additionalMike

    "... But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. .."

    The lefties had hated him for years and finally found a way to get rid of him. Helped by the fact that he was reportedly a total jerk who had made a lot of enemies.

    , @Mike Tre
    @additionalMike

    The left will come for every straight white male eventually, no matter how hard they cuck. It was Cuomo's turn.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @additionalMike

    Cuomo was also considered to be a threat to Kamalaho's 2024 ambitions.

  77. @Polistra

    I was wrong: the arsonist sailor was, apparently, a white guy
     
    You've heard of catnip. This is what's called troofnip.

    Replies: @profnasty

    Truly. July 2020. Think BLM.
    I read a report said there was a race related dust-up just prior to the fire breaking out.
    Crickets.

  78. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    This is not "our" navy anymore either. It saddens me but pretending otherwise isn't healthy.

    At some point, we need to acknowledge that the world has changed. The country that you grew up in, the country that generally existed fron the mid-1600s to around 1990 is dead.

    It's gone. You see it everyday. The people running this society hate you. That won't change. You won't convince them to accept you and your culture through logic.

    The real logic is that they're winning. They're not going to take their foot off the pedal. Why should they?

    Either join the fight as whites or admit that you're a coward. Stop pretending that there's a middle ground. Colorblind civic nationalism is cowardice. Just admit it.

    Replies: @Barnard, @matzahballsgonewrong

    Along with that, people need to actively discourage any young men they know who are considering going into the military from doing so. Even if your family has a tradition of military service, that will mean nothing to the woke officers under whose command they will serve. Encourage them to learn a trade they can use to support a family instead.

  79. A bit too much nostalgia iSteve. Admiral Spruance’s navy lost the battles of Pearl Harbor and more embarrassingly the Phillippines.

    Treachery by US Army Generals in World War II

    The worst US General in World War 2?

    The most hated US General of WW2?

    The fire was so destructive because without a competent demolition plan the ship was filled with demolition debris. The reason the sailorette saw a vague haze instead of billowing smoke is the fire started under a huge pile of garbage and smoldered. Of course I am an internet troll ranting, but we might know for sure if the USN had installed some cheap battery powered cameras around the ship. Heat detectors are common in hard wired residential fire alarms in home kitchens where smoke detectors would activate too often.

  80. By any chance was the fire due to a gender revel party of a sailor? If so, heels aren’t conducive to putting out fires. Just speculating here.

  81. “… as she headed out to a vending machine …”

    The sailor crossed the fuming deck
    With her munchies and a Coke,
    Assuming that the hazy fog
    Was her marijuana smoke.

    **************************
    The girl stood on the burning deck
    Of the ship Bonhomme Richard.
    She wore her flame-retardant suit,
    But the flames would not retard.

    • Thanks: Rob McX
    • LOL: El Dato
  82. As on the other side, I don’t think many USN admirals were particularly clever.

    Togo, Yamamoto, brilliant.

    If only the gyre where the U.S.N. carriers had been hiding, with their antiquated aircraft had been known and attacked and sunk.

    In the war of northern supremacy, the southern side produced much new military technology on the sea, they put up a good fight on the sea, too, only to run out of resources.

    I will give one thing to the U.S.A., despite any of the larger ships being Love Boats now, and anyone knowing anything knows that the nukular subs are similarly luxurious, but they still have dedicated single-sex crews. I may be wrong there now. Very bad for the U..S.N. if so.

    Still, you always have John Philip D’Souza I am probably missing the standard spelling, but for Naval anthems, nobody else is close.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    @Che Guava

    Also, if Nagumo (admiral on the scene)had followed orders, and kept attacking naval and other installations there until the fleet ran out of bombs and torpedoes, it would have made a big(almost certainly not decisive, but huge)difference.

    Instead, he rushed back to Japan to enjoy the victory parades and parties.

    The admiral who opposed the attack per se was Yamamoto, not Nagumo, he was furious at the latter for not following orders to inflict maximum damage, but Nagumo was too popular from his Pyrrhic victory at the time.

    , @gcochran
    @Che Guava

    Yamamoto was an idiot.

    Replies: @Che Guava

    , @No jack London
    @Che Guava

    Could it be that the few who wanted the war made sure that the USN carriers were safely out to sea?

    Replies: @Che Guava

  83. There have been several green construction programs destroyed due to fire. The destruction has occurred when the fire occur in the late stages of major construction before all of the fire suppression systems are functional. Building a five story of higher residential building almost totally out of wood leave the site vulnerable to fire until construction is almost complete. The general contractor is left vulnerable to one careless construction worker with a cigarette or open flame.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/three-alarm-fire-breaks-out-at-college-park-construction-site/2017/04/24/fb0634d2-28f9-11e7-be51-b3fc6ff7faee_story.html

    If the ship was still undergoing maintenance, would all of the fire suppression and safety system even be working?

  84. @houston 1992
    @Dr. X

    I agree. great post.....were there House of Commons inquiries into the Boer War debacles, and what reforms were needed? any links?

    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces e.g. what do their diaries say about the British army performance and , say, the Boer concentration camps?

    Replies: @res

    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces

    Yes. Photo of some here.
    https://www.angloboerwar.com/forum/11-research/8824-foreign-attaches

    U.S. attache.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_L%27Hommedieu_Slocum

    He wrote a book: Boer War Operations in South Africa 1899-1901
    Available on Amazon for about \$100. Should be out of copyright, but I don’t see any electronic versions.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @res

    It's funny that you should mention the name Slocum, which is attached to a very famous ship fire, that which occurred on the General Slocum , named in honor of Union general Henry Slocum (no relation it appears).

    In 1904, the General Slocum caught fire and sank in the East River. She was carrying a church group of German Americans to a church picnic. An estimated 1,021 of the 1,342 people on board died. This decimated what remained of the community of Little Germany on the Lower East Side, which was already in transition to being a Jewish neighborhood. The General Slocum disaster was the New York area's worst disaster in terms of loss of life until the September 11, 2001 attacks.

    Not unlike the Bonhomme Richard, the fire fighting equipment on the Slocum was inadequate - the cloth fire hoses had rotted away with age. The life preservers were supposed to contain a certain quantity of cork, measured by weight but the manufacturer had cheated by concealing an iron bar inside each preserver so that they would make the proper weight. The people of that time wore long skirts and heavy woolen clothing and most did not know how to swim so they just sank like stones. The crew abandoned ship and left the passengers to their fate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_General_Slocum

  85. @CW Acumen
    I thought the guy they suspect set the fire was angry for being bounced out of the SEALs training program. To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buck Ransom, @Reg Cæsar

    Could be that the official story is a coverup, because the real account would be even more pathetic and humiliating for the MIC and TPTB. They lie about everything else, so why would this be any different?

  86. Sure.

    But my take is: so bloody what?

    The US military is not on my side any more. It is not defending my interests or my nation. We are being invaded over the southern border, and not only is the US military NOT doing its job, it’s actually helping bring in the invaders! And starting to fly in invaders from farther away!

    The Chinese could sink all of our aircraft carriers and invade Taiwan and what would it matter to me? Sure, I would feel bad about all those US soldiers dying, but hey, they’re doing it for the cash and the pay. I would not however, feel bad for any flag-rank officers dying, these people have betrayed their nation. I mean sure, when on active duty someone in the military can’t criticize policy, but when retired they sure can. Where are the Smedley Butlers and Dwight Eisenhower’s of yesterday? Working for big defense contractors and oligarch ‘think tanks’ putting a gloss on the betrayal of their nation by a corrupt ruling class.

    I say again: it just does not matter, not anymore.

    • Agree: JMcG
  87. Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she headed out to a vending machine after her watch. She noticed a “hazy, white fog” in the lower vehicle deck around 8:10 a.m. But she didn’t report it,

    They try to make a big deal of this but another sailor reported the fire around the same time:

    Around that time, another sailor who stopped at a sideport door in the Upper V to chat with a sentry “observed white smoke rising from the Lower V ramp into Upper V,” according to the report. One of them ran up the ramp and through the hangar to reach the quarterdeck, telling the officer-of-the-deck about the smoke.

    So the 1st sailor’s obliviousness didn’t really cause any delay.

    There is also a lot of weasel wording in the report, e.g.

    more than three-quarters of the ship’s firefighting equipment was in an unknown status

    “In an unknown status” is not the same as “doesn’t work”. The fire extinguishers in my house are not tested and retagged annually they way they would be in a commercial structure or on a ship but their pressure gauges read full and there is probably a 99.9% chance that they would function despite their “unknown status”.

    It’s very easy to be an armchair quarterback and no doubt there were many failures, but, as Mike Tyson said , “Everyone has a plan ’till they get punched in the mouth.” Or the military version, “No plan survives first contact with the enemy.” Fire is an unpredictable enemy. Once a fire gets going, it can be very hard to put out. No one has really found a good way to do it. Even if everyone on board was fully prepared, there is no guaranty that the outcome would have been any different.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    That may be true, but they are probably making a different point. That lack of tracking systems, shows an attitude of poor tracking. If you are not doing PMS regularly, it shows a lack of discipline, even if the gear is still in cal. And when you think of PMS and system status, firefighting equipment/mains are some of the most important while in port. You still need that stuff even if propulsion is laid up.

    My experience in Navy investigations is they use the opportunity to cite (and treat very seriously) things like failure to give repeatbacks, etc. that civilians might find minor but are part of what keeps people safe in the end. For example poor use of the MC system was a big contributor of the poor response to the fire.

    I did think there were some useful insights from the report. For instance the crew not understanding how to disconnect hatch fouling hoses and cables and/or the importance of it. I served on a ship that sank (partially) because of hoses fouling hatches. It was always treated seriously afterwards and there was a quick disconnect or an axe next to any such snake.

    Another thing was the general lack of confidence, skill, and willingness to use breathing apparatus. That's very different from my sub experience where the entire crew was extremely familiar and used to "sucking rubber" with EABs or even OBAs (one of which would be lit off, rest drilled). Scott Air Packs (firefighter bottles) less experience as only used in the yards. But still not that strange if you're used to using other breathing apparatus.

    Amphib navy ain't going to be as hard core and every man a firefighter as subs (but has the luxury of a dedicated DC department.) Of course we have lost the Miami and the Bonefish to fires, so it's not like we are always better than the skimmers.

    Also, fighting the fire with the duty section obviously made it more difficult. That's a ginormous ship for only 100-odd sailors to fight a fire in.

    Replies: @Jack D

  88. There doesn’t seem to be any further information about the case against Ryan Mays, the (white) sailor accused of setting the fire.

    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin. For example, he posted a shirtless photo of himself on social media with the caption “I love the smell of napalm in the morning” (followed by an icon of a palm tree). This was rather obviously a refence to the movie Apocalypse Now where the line is uttered by a shirtless Robert Duvall but the Navy somehow took it as evidence that he was a firebug. This is very weak sauce.

    There is also evidence that Mays was unhappy in the Navy – he had washed out of his effort to join the Seals and instead was assigned to doing menial labor on board a ship that was tied up at a dock. (So much for “Join the Navy and See the World”). He was no doubt unhappy as most people would be in this situation but there is a big leap from being unhappy to starting a fire. Being unhappy is not, by itself, a crime. Again, very thin sauce.

    If the Navy has stronger cards in this game, they are holding them very close to their vest.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    Thank you. A sailer like that would not normally be inclined to burn down a USN ship. There is no reason to assume he wanted to do so. On the contrary, he sounds more like a hard core American who would never do such a thing.

    Who knows? Maybe he was an Unz and iSteve reader...

    What we do know is that there is no reason that ship should have burned beyond use. Only US Navy leadership is to blame, not any sailer following practices and orders from that very same leadership above.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    PS: Note I misspelled it "sailer." This blog is killing me.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    , @James Forrestal
    @Jack D


    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin.
     
    Hey, it's not as if the Navy has any history of trying to blame some disaster on a junior enlisted man's alleged romantic troubles, when the real problem was misconduct at a higher level...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Focus_on_Truitt_and_Hartwig_and_media_reports
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Gunnery_training_and_experiments
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Preparation_for_fleet_exercise

  89. @res
    @houston 1992


    did any military attaches , say from USA, get attached to the British forces
     
    Yes. Photo of some here.
    https://www.angloboerwar.com/forum/11-research/8824-foreign-attaches

    U.S. attache.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_L%27Hommedieu_Slocum

    He wrote a book: Boer War Operations in South Africa 1899-1901
    Available on Amazon for about $100. Should be out of copyright, but I don't see any electronic versions.

    Replies: @Jack D

    It’s funny that you should mention the name Slocum, which is attached to a very famous ship fire, that which occurred on the General Slocum , named in honor of Union general Henry Slocum (no relation it appears).

    In 1904, the General Slocum caught fire and sank in the East River. She was carrying a church group of German Americans to a church picnic. An estimated 1,021 of the 1,342 people on board died. This decimated what remained of the community of Little Germany on the Lower East Side, which was already in transition to being a Jewish neighborhood. The General Slocum disaster was the New York area’s worst disaster in terms of loss of life until the September 11, 2001 attacks.

    Not unlike the Bonhomme Richard, the fire fighting equipment on the Slocum was inadequate – the cloth fire hoses had rotted away with age. The life preservers were supposed to contain a certain quantity of cork, measured by weight but the manufacturer had cheated by concealing an iron bar inside each preserver so that they would make the proper weight. The people of that time wore long skirts and heavy woolen clothing and most did not know how to swim so they just sank like stones. The crew abandoned ship and left the passengers to their fate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_General_Slocum

  90. @El Dato
    "Burning Bonhomme Richard" is either a commemorative plastic kit or a good grundge band.

    https://i.postimg.cc/wTmTrVTy/plastic-kit.jpg


    That happened at 9:51 a.m. on the upper vehicle deck, where the city firefighters on their own initiative attacked a fire along the space’s starboard side. While unfamiliar with the ship’s layout, they told investigators, they nevertheless reached one area of the fire and fought the blaze for at least another 30 minutes before conditions deteriorated with the fire’s continuing multi-fingered spread.

     

    https://i.postimg.cc/SQzfgB8W/ripley-takes-over.jpg

    "What are you doing Ripley! Get out of the driver's seat!!"

    Also, CTRL-F "button".

    Still photo of AFFF push-buttons for sprinkler groups 15 and 16 serving Lower V (16 on left; 15 on right). These push-buttons are in Upper V amidships. An open hatch obstructs visibility of the push-buttons. US Navy Photo

    Worse, the ship’s installed AFFF systems weren’t put into action “in part because maintenance was not properly performed to keep it ready and in part because the crew lacked familiarity with capability and availability,” the lead investigator wrote.

     

    Aka. "Where is the button!?"

    I hope the nuclear submarine force still knows about Rickover, a great political player with showman skills (possibly seeding apocryphal stories about himself because some are just so Sillycon Valley that they can't be literally true), handler of men and manager.

    “Human experience shows that people, not organizations or management systems, get things done.” — Admiral Hyman Rickover

    Basic Principles for Doing Your Job! by Admiral Hyman G. Rickover U.S.N.

    Copied from here: Excerpts from remarks that Admiral Rickover made to a meeting of the Order of 5-48, an organization of current and retired Naval Reserve officers who are members of, or other-wise connected with, the United States Congress.


    Since the end of World War II, the number of high grade civilians in relation to the total (federal government) workforce has steadily increased to the point where we have more managers and checkers, than we have doers. Our senior employees have been schooled in this 'new' philosophy which holds that, as long as a person is well-versed in a few simple rules of how to handle people and situations, he need not know anything about the details of the programs he is managing or the increasingly sophisticated technologies on which many of these programs are based. This has allowed the non-professional to achieve high status and high pay within the government. If trouble erupts, they can then blame those beneath them or those who preceded them. Until this false concept is rooted out of the federal government, we cannot expect the American people to retain their trust in government. In fact, they should not. I do not hold much hope for this being done before a major disaster befalls the United States. But I can provide some basic principles for doing job which I have followed for over 50 years government service and which I have instilled in my senior managers. If these principles were emphasized, they would go a long way toward reversing their current trend.

    These Principles are:

    Ownership

    A person doing a job - any job - must feel that he owns it and that he will remain on that job indefinitely. Lack of commitment to the present job will be perceived by those who work for him, and they will also tend not to care. If he feels he owns his job and acts accordingly, he need not worry about his next job.

    Responsibility

    Along with Ownership comes the need for full acceptance of full responsibility for the work. Shared responsibility means that no one is responsible. Unless one person who is truly responsible can be identified when something goes wrong, then no one has really been responsible.

    Attention to Detail

    A tendency among managers, particularly as they move to higher positions, is to think they no longer need to be concerned with details. If the boss is not concerned about details, his subordinates also will not consider them important.

    Priorities

    If you are to manage your job, you must set priorities. Too many people let the job set the priorities. You must apply self-discipline to ensure your energy is applied where it is most needed.

    Know What is Going On

    You must establish simple and direct means to find out what is going on in detail in the area of your responsibility. I require regular periodic reports directly to me from personnel throughout my program.

    Hard Work

    For this, there is no substitute . A manager who does not work hard or devote extra effort cannot expect his people to do so. You must set the example. Hard work compensates for many short-comings. You may not be the smartest or most knowledgeable person, but if you dedicate yourself to the job and put in the required effort, your people will follow your lead.

    Checking Up

    An essential element of carrying out my work is the need to have it checked by an independent source. Even the most dedicated individual makes mistakes.

    Facing the Facts

    Another principle for managing a successful program is to resist the natural human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. It is not easy to admit that what you thought was correct did not turn out that way. If conditions require it, one must face the facts and brutally make needed changes despite considerable costs and schedule delays. The man in charge must personally set the example in this area.

     

    Replies: @Elmer T. Jones, @2BR

    Look what they did to Rickover (Reagan administration- the “conservative” heroes) when they wanted their 600 ship Navy. Rickover if you recalled objected to contractor cost overruns. You can mark that as the very beginning of the end. It took a while for the rot to spread but the tree is now completely hollowed out.

  91. Because maintenance was in progress, fire-suppression had been turned off. This called for ordering massive roving patrols, but this was not done. It was known that rag piles were sloppily left around the ship, which compounded the risk. A roving patrol would have spotted the fire much sooner. Further, an arsonist would have been deterred from acting in the first place. Nimitz said, concluding his report of the tragic Halsey hurricane, (I will quote from memory):

    “It is dangerous to be grudging about safety precautions for fear that they might turn out to have been unnecessary. This has been the law of the sea for 1000 years.”

    Btw, at USCG boot camp, there is cadence marching song that goes like this: “And while we are sleepin’ the night watchman’s creepin’ all around, round, round..”

  92. The NEW Navy!!!!

    The Task Force 1 Navy Pledge (TF1N) [2020 Final Report]

    I will invest the time, attention and empathy required to analyze and evaluate Navywide issues related to racism, sexism, ableism and other structural and interpersonal biases.

    I pledge to be actively inclusive in the public and private spheres where I live and work, and proactively encourage others to do the same.

    I pledge to advocate for and acknowledge all lived experiences and intersectional identities of every Sailor in the Navy.

    I pledge to engage in ongoing self-reflection, education and knowledge sharing to better myself and my communities.

    I pledge to be an example in establishing healthy, inclusive and team-oriented environments.

    I pledge to constructively share all experiences and information gained from activities above to inform the development of Navywide reforms.

    Source: file:///C:/Users/charl/AppData/Local/Temp/TASK%20FORCE%20ONE%20NAVY%20FINAL%20REPORT.PDF

    • Replies: @Anon
    @CCZ

    It is interesting to compare the “pledge” to the swearing in by a still serious country - yes, that country being Israel.

    “I swear and commit to maintain allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and its authorities, to accept​ upon myself unconditionally the discipline of the Israel Defense Forces, to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, and to devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life, for the protection of the homeland and the liberty of Israel.”

    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Bill Jones

    , @El Dato
    @CCZ

    There is no need to panic. This is actually the pledge of the Psychokinesis & Telepathy Special Section. They are a bit touchy-feely but they are the best when they have to mentally probe enemies from hundreds of miles away.

    https://i.postimg.cc/Dy52ZzjP/kzinti-telepath-feeling-down-today.jpg

  93. @Jack D
    There doesn't seem to be any further information about the case against Ryan Mays, the (white) sailor accused of setting the fire.

    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin. For example, he posted a shirtless photo of himself on social media with the caption "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" (followed by an icon of a palm tree). This was rather obviously a refence to the movie Apocalypse Now where the line is uttered by a shirtless Robert Duvall but the Navy somehow took it as evidence that he was a firebug. This is very weak sauce.

    There is also evidence that Mays was unhappy in the Navy - he had washed out of his effort to join the Seals and instead was assigned to doing menial labor on board a ship that was tied up at a dock. (So much for "Join the Navy and See the World"). He was no doubt unhappy as most people would be in this situation but there is a big leap from being unhappy to starting a fire. Being unhappy is not, by itself, a crime. Again, very thin sauce.

    If the Navy has stronger cards in this game, they are holding them very close to their vest.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk, @James Forrestal

    Thank you. A sailer like that would not normally be inclined to burn down a USN ship. There is no reason to assume he wanted to do so. On the contrary, he sounds more like a hard core American who would never do such a thing.

    Who knows? Maybe he was an Unz and iSteve reader…

    What we do know is that there is no reason that ship should have burned beyond use. Only US Navy leadership is to blame, not any sailer following practices and orders from that very same leadership above.

  94. @JimDandy
    @JohnnyWalker123

    What's the difference between Derek Chauvin and Alec Baldwin? Baldwin actual killed a person.

    Replies: @Rob

    What’s the difference between Derek Chauvin and fentanyl?

    Fentanyl killed George Floyd.

    • Agree: JimDandy
  95. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she headed out to a vending machine after her watch. She noticed a “hazy, white fog” in the lower vehicle deck around 8:10 a.m. But she didn’t report it,
     
    They try to make a big deal of this but another sailor reported the fire around the same time:

    Around that time, another sailor who stopped at a sideport door in the Upper V to chat with a sentry “observed white smoke rising from the Lower V ramp into Upper V,” according to the report. One of them ran up the ramp and through the hangar to reach the quarterdeck, telling the officer-of-the-deck about the smoke.
     
    So the 1st sailor's obliviousness didn't really cause any delay.

    There is also a lot of weasel wording in the report, e.g.

    more than three-quarters of the ship’s firefighting equipment was in an unknown status
     
    "In an unknown status" is not the same as "doesn't work". The fire extinguishers in my house are not tested and retagged annually they way they would be in a commercial structure or on a ship but their pressure gauges read full and there is probably a 99.9% chance that they would function despite their "unknown status".

    It's very easy to be an armchair quarterback and no doubt there were many failures, but, as Mike Tyson said , “Everyone has a plan ’till they get punched in the mouth.” Or the military version, “No plan survives first contact with the enemy.” Fire is an unpredictable enemy. Once a fire gets going, it can be very hard to put out. No one has really found a good way to do it. Even if everyone on board was fully prepared, there is no guaranty that the outcome would have been any different.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    That may be true, but they are probably making a different point. That lack of tracking systems, shows an attitude of poor tracking. If you are not doing PMS regularly, it shows a lack of discipline, even if the gear is still in cal. And when you think of PMS and system status, firefighting equipment/mains are some of the most important while in port. You still need that stuff even if propulsion is laid up.

    My experience in Navy investigations is they use the opportunity to cite (and treat very seriously) things like failure to give repeatbacks, etc. that civilians might find minor but are part of what keeps people safe in the end. For example poor use of the MC system was a big contributor of the poor response to the fire.

    I did think there were some useful insights from the report. For instance the crew not understanding how to disconnect hatch fouling hoses and cables and/or the importance of it. I served on a ship that sank (partially) because of hoses fouling hatches. It was always treated seriously afterwards and there was a quick disconnect or an axe next to any such snake.

    Another thing was the general lack of confidence, skill, and willingness to use breathing apparatus. That’s very different from my sub experience where the entire crew was extremely familiar and used to “sucking rubber” with EABs or even OBAs (one of which would be lit off, rest drilled). Scott Air Packs (firefighter bottles) less experience as only used in the yards. But still not that strange if you’re used to using other breathing apparatus.

    Amphib navy ain’t going to be as hard core and every man a firefighter as subs (but has the luxury of a dedicated DC department.) Of course we have lost the Miami and the Bonefish to fires, so it’s not like we are always better than the skimmers.

    Also, fighting the fire with the duty section obviously made it more difficult. That’s a ginormous ship for only 100-odd sailors to fight a fire in.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    Except in the earliest minutes the sailors did not have primary responsibility and professional firefighters are very familiar with air packs.


    Civilian federal fire crews and San Diego Fire-Rescue units arrived on the scene around 8:30 a.m. (minutes after the fire was reported). However, the pier on which Bonhomme Richard was moored did not have a fire main, so firefighters tried using a drinking water supply line.

    Federal fire crews stretched a series of hoses down to the lower V but did not initially combat the blaze because one of crews experienced a “low air” alarm, and the team pulled out just after 9 a.m. Another crew detected temperatures of 500 degrees F. That crew had water-pressure issues — the result of an errant valve getting accidentally kicked and closed. They also pulled out without attacking the fire.

    Around 9:30, a San Diego Fire-Rescue crew came aboard to fight the fire but federal fire teams told them to leave —
     
    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/military/story/2021-10-20/navy-failures-bonhomme-richard-fire

    From reading this, the "civilian Federal fire crews" were a bunch of Keystone Kops and I would lay blame at their hands.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  96. @Jack D
    There doesn't seem to be any further information about the case against Ryan Mays, the (white) sailor accused of setting the fire.

    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin. For example, he posted a shirtless photo of himself on social media with the caption "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" (followed by an icon of a palm tree). This was rather obviously a refence to the movie Apocalypse Now where the line is uttered by a shirtless Robert Duvall but the Navy somehow took it as evidence that he was a firebug. This is very weak sauce.

    There is also evidence that Mays was unhappy in the Navy - he had washed out of his effort to join the Seals and instead was assigned to doing menial labor on board a ship that was tied up at a dock. (So much for "Join the Navy and See the World"). He was no doubt unhappy as most people would be in this situation but there is a big leap from being unhappy to starting a fire. Being unhappy is not, by itself, a crime. Again, very thin sauce.

    If the Navy has stronger cards in this game, they are holding them very close to their vest.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk, @James Forrestal

    PS: Note I misspelled it “sailer.” This blog is killing me.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "PS: Note I misspelled it 'sailer.'"

    Not by accident and not under your control.

    "This blog is killing me."

    Your body will survive a few more decades but your brain will succumb to a subliminally-induced senility. The Unz Review is basically a mausoleum for middle age white men.

  97. @Mike Tre
    "But, the U.S. Navy is supposed to be pretty good at putting out fires. "

    I spent 14 months of my 4 year enlistment in the Marines aboard two separate LPD's between 1998 and 2001. The ships' crews went to General Quarters almost every single day at sea, including Sundays. Every shop on board has its very specific designated duty during general quarters, and firefighting was taken very seriously. Imagine being in the Persian Gulf in August and donning 40 pounds of firefighting gear then running around the cramped un-air conditioned spaces of a navy ship simulating firefighting procedures. The seamen would also practice fire hose handling, usually requiring at least two men to man a single hose due to the enormous force of the water pressure. They also simulated evacuating smoke filled compartments and berthing areas below decks by blindfolding a team of sailors and having them attempt to find their way above deck within a certain period of time.

    So the obvious guess is that intensive firefighting training has given way to more important things, like promoting broads and negroes so their feelings don't get hurt. Training tends to dip when a ship is in port to begin with, but if the BHR had been in dock for over a year, combined with more vibrant leadership, training probably degenerated to optional attendance to morning formation.

    "Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she "

    Say no more. Female sailors are about as useful as a male wet nurse.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Dutch Boy, @The Mestizo

    Reports in the SD Union-Tribune indicate that firefighting training goes by the board when a ship is in a repair facility rather than at sea, which is unfortunate because fire danger is actually greater when the ship is being repaired (welding, etc.). The officer of the deck was informed of smoke but declined to sound an alarm because he thought there might be a benign reason for the smoke (a weenie roast?). This incident is one of many indicating the US Navy is seriously screwed up, particularly the large number of officers accepting bribes to disclose confidential ship movement info to foreign contractors.

  98. @El Dato
    @Thoughts

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren't you relieved?

    https://twitter.com/NoahPollak/status/1451705222531674112

    Reminder to use "private browsing" to get full service from Jack's body harvesting outfit w/o having to "log on".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Abolish_public_education, @Mr. Anon

    NSBA’s revenues are ~\$18M/yr. The bulk (\$8M) comes from memberships paid by state school boards (who, in turn, collect fees from county/local boards). It makes \$6M from its annual conference (no doubt 90% of attendees are school boarders). IOW, at the brass tacks, its operating funds are skimmed off of local property taxes.

    (The executive director of this left-wing, pro-public education, special interest group receives total compensation worth ~\$440K. His 9-member management team each make ~\$200K on average.)

    In case you weren’t aware, in years when the legislature is in-session, school districts also directly retain lobbyists (usually term-limited out, ex-politician, government worker-retirees), @ \$500/hr + expenses, in order to work their state legislatures for more money. Considering that DEM lawmakers are teachers’ union stooges, and their GOP colleagues are big supporters of public education anyway, one wonders why school districts feel the need to spend extra on getting their messages heard.

    The government taxes people (like A_p_e) in order to spend the money on lobbying the government for more government (school funding). Obscenely unethical.

  99. Since China owns the government, corporations, and the military leadership (Woke Milley reports to China not the US), having a good military is not important. China will order them to go after us, so that a US with nothing but non-Whites will be easy to conquer as a giant Chinese food plantation.

    And just like our elites, Xi hates you and wants you dead. Round eye.

  100. @El Dato
    @Thoughts

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren't you relieved?

    https://twitter.com/NoahPollak/status/1451705222531674112

    Reminder to use "private browsing" to get full service from Jack's body harvesting outfit w/o having to "log on".

    Replies: @Pericles, @Abolish_public_education, @Mr. Anon

    But the National School Association Board has backtracked from suggesting El Prez use the PATRIOT act against you.

    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

    Aren’t you relieved?

    Of course they don’t regret having said it. They only regret having got caught saying it.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
  101. @Hypnotoad666
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Apparently, Baldwin was also a producer, with ultimate authority over things like staffing, safety and training. But they were low budget and cutting corners everywhere. This isn't looking good for him.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Feryl, @SunBakedSuburb

    “Baldwin was also a producer”

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it’s loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he’ll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he’s a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @SunBakedSuburb


    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)
     
    What?

    In Baldwin's defense, apparently the (highly experienced) assistant director who handed him the gun announced "cold gun" (meaning that the weapon was not loaded). Baldwin probably is entitled to rely on what the director told him and had no reason to suspect otherwise. Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself (it was a replica Colt revolver) but probably wasn't obligated to do so. On a movie set, there are dozens of highly paid people so the meter is spinning real fast and you don't want to slow things down while the star inspects his weapon so normally he is entitled to rely on the instructions of the person who hands him the weapon and who are supposed to be more expert in weapons than an actor anyway.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Paperback Writer

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @SunBakedSuburb


    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)
     
    This sounds pretty interesting actually.
    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @SunBakedSuburb


    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.
     
    LOL. As you say, "your body will survive a few more decades but your brain will succumb to a subliminally-induced senility."

    What on Earth is an "underwear guy?" It that like a body double who wears briefs? Did you shove a rolled up sock down there, to protect Alec's image?

    I'm glad you and he eventually got along, because I like Alec. (I think I like you too, but maybe not in your underwear, okay?) He's one of those love-'em-but-also-hate-'em kind of guys. Subject to overly aggressive responses that he doesn't take seriously, like me. That's the key to know: He doesn't take it seriously. I understand. God bless him. I'm certain whatever went wrong on set was not his fault.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @SunBakedSuburb


    after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well
     
    Plenty of decidedly un-woke people (e.g., Joe Rogan, Adam Carolla), have said they actually like and admire the guy and think he is smart and open-minded. But like so many others, TDS has warped a particular area of his brain. Except for politics he'd probably be an interesting guy to have beer with.
  102. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    The walkout appeared to be over an unrelated issue – the production was providing the union crew with (cheap) hotel rooms in Albuquerque, a hour’s drive from the location while the crew preferred to stay in nearby pricey Santa Fe. This was a relatively low budget movie (by Hollywood standards – every movie requires a massive crew and is going to be costly no matter what but there are degrees of costly) and they were scraping for nickels (except maybe when it came to paying the stars).

    After the union crew walked off they brought in non-union people that day.

    There are two possibilities here:

    1. The non-union people were inferior. Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert. Apparently, Baldwin ignored safety protocols such as never pointing a weapon at humans – if a shot calls for the gun to be pointed at the camera then extra precautions need to be taken so that the camera operator is not in the line of fire, even if the gun is supposedly loaded with blanks. A 24 year old female might not have been assertive or confident enough to overrule a major Hollywood star who was also the producer of the movie. A union armorer would have the backing of all of the other union people on the set so if he called halt the other union people would walk off.

    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.

    • Replies: @Corn
    @Jack D

    Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert.

    I wonder what qualifications are required to be a Hollywood/film production armorer. FFL holder? Veteran or civilian gun enthusiast who can simply impress a producer or director?

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D


    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.
     
    The armorer is supposed to check the gun before anyone else touches it. She laid it on a cart, the AD then gave it to Baldwin.

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you're suggesting she's one of the union people who sabotaged the gun... well... maybe, but I doubt it. I think she's just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent - who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @rebel yell, @Johann Ricke

  103. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    PS: Note I misspelled it "sailer." This blog is killing me.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    “PS: Note I misspelled it ‘sailer.’”

    Not by accident and not under your control.

    “This blog is killing me.”

    Your body will survive a few more decades but your brain will succumb to a subliminally-induced senility. The Unz Review is basically a mausoleum for middle age white men.

  104. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Baldwin was also a producer"

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it's loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he'll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he's a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    Replies: @Jack D, @JohnnyWalker123, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666

    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)

    What?

    In Baldwin’s defense, apparently the (highly experienced) assistant director who handed him the gun announced “cold gun” (meaning that the weapon was not loaded). Baldwin probably is entitled to rely on what the director told him and had no reason to suspect otherwise. Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself (it was a replica Colt revolver) but probably wasn’t obligated to do so. On a movie set, there are dozens of highly paid people so the meter is spinning real fast and you don’t want to slow things down while the star inspects his weapon so normally he is entitled to rely on the instructions of the person who hands him the weapon and who are supposed to be more expert in weapons than an actor anyway.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Jack D

    "Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself ... but probably wasn't obligated to do so"

    This is lizard-speak, but you're probably, technically, correct. I wrote "he could and should" be charged with negligent homicide. Morally, he's culpable. Legally, the gun handler will probably take the wrap because Baldwin's political allies in the media will twist the narrative to such an extent people will believe that the gun handler was the actual trigger-puller. I have no animus toward Baldwin; I like the guy despite his dickish qualities. He alone killed that woman.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    This is the most complete account of the on-set problems:

    https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set


    Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

    Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

    Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.
     
    Clearly, there was some problem with the competence of the armorer, a slut named Hannah Gutierrez Reed:

    https://celebhook.com/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer-thell-reed-daughter/

    Baldwin is one of the producers. If he were simply an actor who was handed a gun, he'd be off the hook. But as one of the producers of a movie that was mired in problems, he's in deep shit.

    Replies: @Jack D

  105. @Jack D
    @JohnnyWalker123

    The walkout appeared to be over an unrelated issue - the production was providing the union crew with (cheap) hotel rooms in Albuquerque, a hour's drive from the location while the crew preferred to stay in nearby pricey Santa Fe. This was a relatively low budget movie (by Hollywood standards - every movie requires a massive crew and is going to be costly no matter what but there are degrees of costly) and they were scraping for nickels (except maybe when it came to paying the stars).

    After the union crew walked off they brought in non-union people that day.

    There are two possibilities here:

    1. The non-union people were inferior. Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert. Apparently, Baldwin ignored safety protocols such as never pointing a weapon at humans - if a shot calls for the gun to be pointed at the camera then extra precautions need to be taken so that the camera operator is not in the line of fire, even if the gun is supposedly loaded with blanks. A 24 year old female might not have been assertive or confident enough to overrule a major Hollywood star who was also the producer of the movie. A union armorer would have the backing of all of the other union people on the set so if he called halt the other union people would walk off.

    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.

    Replies: @Corn, @Paperback Writer

    Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert.

    I wonder what qualifications are required to be a Hollywood/film production armorer. FFL holder? Veteran or civilian gun enthusiast who can simply impress a producer or director?

  106. @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    That may be true, but they are probably making a different point. That lack of tracking systems, shows an attitude of poor tracking. If you are not doing PMS regularly, it shows a lack of discipline, even if the gear is still in cal. And when you think of PMS and system status, firefighting equipment/mains are some of the most important while in port. You still need that stuff even if propulsion is laid up.

    My experience in Navy investigations is they use the opportunity to cite (and treat very seriously) things like failure to give repeatbacks, etc. that civilians might find minor but are part of what keeps people safe in the end. For example poor use of the MC system was a big contributor of the poor response to the fire.

    I did think there were some useful insights from the report. For instance the crew not understanding how to disconnect hatch fouling hoses and cables and/or the importance of it. I served on a ship that sank (partially) because of hoses fouling hatches. It was always treated seriously afterwards and there was a quick disconnect or an axe next to any such snake.

    Another thing was the general lack of confidence, skill, and willingness to use breathing apparatus. That's very different from my sub experience where the entire crew was extremely familiar and used to "sucking rubber" with EABs or even OBAs (one of which would be lit off, rest drilled). Scott Air Packs (firefighter bottles) less experience as only used in the yards. But still not that strange if you're used to using other breathing apparatus.

    Amphib navy ain't going to be as hard core and every man a firefighter as subs (but has the luxury of a dedicated DC department.) Of course we have lost the Miami and the Bonefish to fires, so it's not like we are always better than the skimmers.

    Also, fighting the fire with the duty section obviously made it more difficult. That's a ginormous ship for only 100-odd sailors to fight a fire in.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Except in the earliest minutes the sailors did not have primary responsibility and professional firefighters are very familiar with air packs.

    Civilian federal fire crews and San Diego Fire-Rescue units arrived on the scene around 8:30 a.m. (minutes after the fire was reported). However, the pier on which Bonhomme Richard was moored did not have a fire main, so firefighters tried using a drinking water supply line.

    Federal fire crews stretched a series of hoses down to the lower V but did not initially combat the blaze because one of crews experienced a “low air” alarm, and the team pulled out just after 9 a.m. Another crew detected temperatures of 500 degrees F. That crew had water-pressure issues — the result of an errant valve getting accidentally kicked and closed. They also pulled out without attacking the fire.

    Around 9:30, a San Diego Fire-Rescue crew came aboard to fight the fire but federal fire teams told them to leave —

    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/military/story/2021-10-20/navy-failures-bonhomme-richard-fire

    From reading this, the “civilian Federal fire crews” were a bunch of Keystone Kops and I would lay blame at their hands.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    Yes, I agree there was confusion with shore fire support. That is one of the things very different about firefighting in port, in the yard, versus normally at sea.

    It's irrelevant, their lack of experience with Scott Air Packs, although not surprising. They didn't use anything! They should still be familiar with OBAs and have used them. And even various compartment escape breathing equipment were not used. Read the report.

    P.s. Baldwin should have checked the weapon. "Everyone's job is safety." That's why, for instance, safety briefings are given, so everyone can be a part of being safe. It is not an A versus B responsibility, but a both situation. It is normal for both the armorer and the actor to check the weapon. He should have been given the weapon and demonstrated that it was empty and to have looked critically at it himself. This is the normal procedure. Yes, there can be a lot of pressure on a film set, but any dangerous stunt needs to be done carefully.

  107. @Jack D
    @SunBakedSuburb


    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)
     
    What?

    In Baldwin's defense, apparently the (highly experienced) assistant director who handed him the gun announced "cold gun" (meaning that the weapon was not loaded). Baldwin probably is entitled to rely on what the director told him and had no reason to suspect otherwise. Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself (it was a replica Colt revolver) but probably wasn't obligated to do so. On a movie set, there are dozens of highly paid people so the meter is spinning real fast and you don't want to slow things down while the star inspects his weapon so normally he is entitled to rely on the instructions of the person who hands him the weapon and who are supposed to be more expert in weapons than an actor anyway.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Paperback Writer

    “Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself … but probably wasn’t obligated to do so”

    This is lizard-speak, but you’re probably, technically, correct. I wrote “he could and should” be charged with negligent homicide. Morally, he’s culpable. Legally, the gun handler will probably take the wrap because Baldwin’s political allies in the media will twist the narrative to such an extent people will believe that the gun handler was the actual trigger-puller. I have no animus toward Baldwin; I like the guy despite his dickish qualities. He alone killed that woman.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Baldwin’s political allies in the media will twist the narrative ..

    I don't know about his political allies, but when I turned on the TV, wanting to learn about this story (24 hrs late), I was appalled by how the idiot reporters were spinning it:

    • the good looking guy was visibly shaken.
    • accidental shootings happen all the time.
    • tuck Frump.

    They should re-shoot the scene (i.e. take two). At the very least, the actor should be offered the role of President of the NRA.

  108. @Dr. X
    The Navy, and the military in general, are only effective as imperial police against Third Worlders and others without any matching technology. If you're some Somali pirate toting an AK-47 in a dinghy, the Navy is going to absolutely kick your ass. If you're some goatf--ker on a hillside in Afghanistan, a Predator drone that you can't even see will send you to Allah and you'll never even know what hit you. If you're some haji in Iraq, getting hit by B-52s from Diego Garcia or Tomcats launched off a carrier in the Persian Gulf 500 miles away has got to suck.

    That being said, Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan proved that even the Third World primitives who cannot match our technology and our deep pockets still do stand more than a fighting chance if they are willing to take casualties.

    But the point is that we have not fought an enemy with similar technological and organizational capacity since 1945. If the Vietnamese, the Taliban, and the Somalis were able to take us, then a technologically advanced nation like China would absolutely humiliate us. The Navy wouldn't stand a chance -- the Chinese would probably hack our electronics, then destroy us with cruise missiles with minimal casualties to themselves.

    A similar situation existed as the British Empire became senescent in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could take the Sepoys, the Sudanese, and the Zulus easily enough, but when they took on the Americans, the Boers, the Irish and the Germans, they didn't fare quite so well. Britain would not have "won" World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance, and even then the effort bankrupted and ruined them.

    The comeuppance of a once-invincible-but-now-bloated-and-corrupt imperial military is never a pleasant thing to watch... but I fear that we Americans are going to get a chance to see it happen.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Polistra, @Elmer T. Jones, @Hibernian

    Britain would not have “won” World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance

    Plus, to a certain extent, Soviet assistance in WW2, with the caveat that some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hibernian


    some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution
     
    I would say quite the opposite. Most Americans (used to) know what D-Day was, but how many Americans know about the Battle of Kursk?

    Replies: @Hibernian

  109. @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don't know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    Replies: @Muggles, @James B. Shearer, @Mike Tre, @Jim Don Bob

    But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    About two months ago (or longer) when this stuff was news, Tucker Carlson had most of a show about the Dem politics behind the Andy Cuomo meltdown.

    He spent nearly 20 minutes on it and interviewed a NY journalist familiar with state insider politics.

    Seems that the final shove out the door was an inside job, per this report. The now female Gov. and her cronies, most of whom were not Cuomo flunkies, were long aware of St. Cuomo’s failings but of course kept quiet. But as things surfaced rapidly and repeatedly these second tier grifters smelt blood in the waters. As you might expect they all really hated El Supremo. Or Don Supremo.

    So they quietly circulated anti Cuomo petitions and took straw votes and dropped tidbits to hungry media scandal mongers. Once the United Front of replacements kicked in as more lies were uncovered, the jig was up.

    So far as I know this was the only national media coverage of that. Even the WSJ failed to cover this internal coup de etat in much detail.

    But there are always crew chiefs and underbosses who are happy to see the Don get his.

    • Thanks: The Wild Geese Howard
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @Muggles

    The machinations were even more involved! Only recently has it been reported that Gov Andy had told his then serving Lt Gov that she was to be dropped from his reelection ticket for some more deserving minority!

    Replies: @Muggles

  110. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    Except in the earliest minutes the sailors did not have primary responsibility and professional firefighters are very familiar with air packs.


    Civilian federal fire crews and San Diego Fire-Rescue units arrived on the scene around 8:30 a.m. (minutes after the fire was reported). However, the pier on which Bonhomme Richard was moored did not have a fire main, so firefighters tried using a drinking water supply line.

    Federal fire crews stretched a series of hoses down to the lower V but did not initially combat the blaze because one of crews experienced a “low air” alarm, and the team pulled out just after 9 a.m. Another crew detected temperatures of 500 degrees F. That crew had water-pressure issues — the result of an errant valve getting accidentally kicked and closed. They also pulled out without attacking the fire.

    Around 9:30, a San Diego Fire-Rescue crew came aboard to fight the fire but federal fire teams told them to leave —
     
    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/military/story/2021-10-20/navy-failures-bonhomme-richard-fire

    From reading this, the "civilian Federal fire crews" were a bunch of Keystone Kops and I would lay blame at their hands.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Yes, I agree there was confusion with shore fire support. That is one of the things very different about firefighting in port, in the yard, versus normally at sea.

    It’s irrelevant, their lack of experience with Scott Air Packs, although not surprising. They didn’t use anything! They should still be familiar with OBAs and have used them. And even various compartment escape breathing equipment were not used. Read the report.

    P.s. Baldwin should have checked the weapon. “Everyone’s job is safety.” That’s why, for instance, safety briefings are given, so everyone can be a part of being safe. It is not an A versus B responsibility, but a both situation. It is normal for both the armorer and the actor to check the weapon. He should have been given the weapon and demonstrated that it was empty and to have looked critically at it himself. This is the normal procedure. Yes, there can be a lot of pressure on a film set, but any dangerous stunt needs to be done carefully.

  111. @Pericles
    @El Dato


    National School Board Association backtracks after asking White House to label dissident parents ‘domestic terrorists’

     

    Furthermore, historical reminder that the original Reign of Terror was applied by the French revolutionary government to the population. A bit like today come to think of it.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    Bad News: According to the Daily Mail, Attorney General Garland is nevertheless proceeding full steam ahead in pursuit of the fictitious malefactors!

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Dan Hayes

    The new School Board & Garfinkel hit: "The sound of parent's silence"

  112. @Muggles
    @additionalMike


    But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.
     
    About two months ago (or longer) when this stuff was news, Tucker Carlson had most of a show about the Dem politics behind the Andy Cuomo meltdown.

    He spent nearly 20 minutes on it and interviewed a NY journalist familiar with state insider politics.

    Seems that the final shove out the door was an inside job, per this report. The now female Gov. and her cronies, most of whom were not Cuomo flunkies, were long aware of St. Cuomo's failings but of course kept quiet. But as things surfaced rapidly and repeatedly these second tier grifters smelt blood in the waters. As you might expect they all really hated El Supremo. Or Don Supremo.

    So they quietly circulated anti Cuomo petitions and took straw votes and dropped tidbits to hungry media scandal mongers. Once the United Front of replacements kicked in as more lies were uncovered, the jig was up.

    So far as I know this was the only national media coverage of that. Even the WSJ failed to cover this internal coup de etat in much detail.

    But there are always crew chiefs and underbosses who are happy to see the Don get his.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    The machinations were even more involved! Only recently has it been reported that Gov Andy had told his then serving Lt Gov that she was to be dropped from his reelection ticket for some more deserving minority!

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Dan Hayes

    Sometimes the Trotskyites and wreckers manage to win.

    Poor Stalin, poor Stalin.

    (Best not to warn them when you plan to give them the chop. Just kick in their door at 4 AM.)

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

  113. @Dan Hayes
    @Pericles

    Bad News: According to the Daily Mail, Attorney General Garland is nevertheless proceeding full steam ahead in pursuit of the fictitious malefactors!

    Replies: @El Dato

    The new School Board & Garfinkel hit: “The sound of parent’s silence”

  114. @Che Guava
    As on the other side, I don't think many USN admirals were particularly clever.

    Togo, Yamamoto, brilliant.

    If only the gyre where the U.S.N. carriers had been hiding, with their antiquated aircraft had been known and attacked and sunk.

    In the war of northern supremacy, the southern side produced much new military technology on the sea, they put up a good fight on the sea, too, only to run out of resources.

    I will give one thing to the U.S.A., despite any of the larger ships being Love Boats now, and anyone knowing anything knows that the nukular subs are similarly luxurious, but they still have dedicated single-sex crews. I may be wrong there now. Very bad for the U..S.N. if so.

    Still, you always have John Philip D'Souza I am probably missing the standard spelling, but for Naval anthems, nobody else is close.

    Replies: @Che Guava, @gcochran, @No jack London

    Also, if Nagumo (admiral on the scene)had followed orders, and kept attacking naval and other installations there until the fleet ran out of bombs and torpedoes, it would have made a big(almost certainly not decisive, but huge)difference.

    Instead, he rushed back to Japan to enjoy the victory parades and parties.

    The admiral who opposed the attack per se was Yamamoto, not Nagumo, he was furious at the latter for not following orders to inflict maximum damage, but Nagumo was too popular from his Pyrrhic victory at the time.

  115. @Dan Hayes
    @Muggles

    The machinations were even more involved! Only recently has it been reported that Gov Andy had told his then serving Lt Gov that she was to be dropped from his reelection ticket for some more deserving minority!

    Replies: @Muggles

    Sometimes the Trotskyites and wreckers manage to win.

    Poor Stalin, poor Stalin.

    (Best not to warn them when you plan to give them the chop. Just kick in their door at 4 AM.)

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Muggles


    (Best not to warn them when you plan to give them the chop. Just kick in their door at 4 AM.)
     
    Sounds like a textbook case of, "pride comes before the fall."

    Still, it is impressive and disturbing that someone like Hochul, who hails from the far western end of NY, was able to wrest power from Cuomo, who was part of an entrenched, multi-generational, downstate political mafia.

    I have to wonder if DeBlasio, who controls NYC and is no friend of Cuomo, played a pivotal role in this coup. This is because, in some ways, the mayor of NYC is more powerful than the governor of NY state.
  116. Anon[410] • Disclaimer says:
    @CCZ
    The NEW Navy!!!!

    The Task Force 1 Navy Pledge (TF1N) [2020 Final Report]

    I will invest the time, attention and empathy required to analyze and evaluate Navywide issues related to racism, sexism, ableism and other structural and interpersonal biases.

    I pledge to be actively inclusive in the public and private spheres where I live and work, and proactively encourage others to do the same.

    I pledge to advocate for and acknowledge all lived experiences and intersectional identities of every Sailor in the Navy.

    I pledge to engage in ongoing self-reflection, education and knowledge sharing to better myself and my communities.

    I pledge to be an example in establishing healthy, inclusive and team-oriented environments.

    I pledge to constructively share all experiences and information gained from activities above to inform the development of Navywide reforms.

    Source: file:///C:/Users/charl/AppData/Local/Temp/TASK%20FORCE%20ONE%20NAVY%20FINAL%20REPORT.PDF

     

    Replies: @Anon, @El Dato

    It is interesting to compare the “pledge” to the swearing in by a still serious country – yes, that country being Israel.

    “I swear and commit to maintain allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and its authorities, to accept​ upon myself unconditionally the discipline of the Israel Defense Forces, to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, and to devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life, for the protection of the homeland and the liberty of Israel.”

    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Anon


    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.
     
    They should stamp each Tavor rifle paid for with US funds with a "USAID FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE" logo. Hell, where's my free Tavor?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/884508878708379648/RZ8Mn79P_400x400.jpg
    , @Bill Jones
    @Anon


    to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders,
     
    Would seem to imply that it includes illegal orders.
  117. @Jack D
    @SunBakedSuburb


    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)
     
    What?

    In Baldwin's defense, apparently the (highly experienced) assistant director who handed him the gun announced "cold gun" (meaning that the weapon was not loaded). Baldwin probably is entitled to rely on what the director told him and had no reason to suspect otherwise. Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself (it was a replica Colt revolver) but probably wasn't obligated to do so. On a movie set, there are dozens of highly paid people so the meter is spinning real fast and you don't want to slow things down while the star inspects his weapon so normally he is entitled to rely on the instructions of the person who hands him the weapon and who are supposed to be more expert in weapons than an actor anyway.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Paperback Writer

    This is the most complete account of the on-set problems:

    https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set

    Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

    Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

    Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

    Clearly, there was some problem with the competence of the armorer, a slut named Hannah Gutierrez Reed:

    https://celebhook.com/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer-thell-reed-daughter/

    Baldwin is one of the producers. If he were simply an actor who was handed a gun, he’d be off the hook. But as one of the producers of a movie that was mired in problems, he’s in deep shit.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer

    Just because you are a pink haired slut doesn't mean you are incompetent.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  118. @Che Guava
    As on the other side, I don't think many USN admirals were particularly clever.

    Togo, Yamamoto, brilliant.

    If only the gyre where the U.S.N. carriers had been hiding, with their antiquated aircraft had been known and attacked and sunk.

    In the war of northern supremacy, the southern side produced much new military technology on the sea, they put up a good fight on the sea, too, only to run out of resources.

    I will give one thing to the U.S.A., despite any of the larger ships being Love Boats now, and anyone knowing anything knows that the nukular subs are similarly luxurious, but they still have dedicated single-sex crews. I may be wrong there now. Very bad for the U..S.N. if so.

    Still, you always have John Philip D'Souza I am probably missing the standard spelling, but for Naval anthems, nobody else is close.

    Replies: @Che Guava, @gcochran, @No jack London

    Yamamoto was an idiot.

    • Disagree: El Dato
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    @gcochran

    No, he was ordered to plan something he did not agree with, did his best, and was badly let down by Noguma.

    You clearly have only a moron's idea of any loyal military.

  119. @Jack D
    @JohnnyWalker123

    The walkout appeared to be over an unrelated issue - the production was providing the union crew with (cheap) hotel rooms in Albuquerque, a hour's drive from the location while the crew preferred to stay in nearby pricey Santa Fe. This was a relatively low budget movie (by Hollywood standards - every movie requires a massive crew and is going to be costly no matter what but there are degrees of costly) and they were scraping for nickels (except maybe when it came to paying the stars).

    After the union crew walked off they brought in non-union people that day.

    There are two possibilities here:

    1. The non-union people were inferior. Apparently the armorer on the set (the person who is supposed to be in charge of gun safety) was a 24 year old female and relatively inexperienced although she is the daughter of a well known Hollywood gun expert. Apparently, Baldwin ignored safety protocols such as never pointing a weapon at humans - if a shot calls for the gun to be pointed at the camera then extra precautions need to be taken so that the camera operator is not in the line of fire, even if the gun is supposedly loaded with blanks. A 24 year old female might not have been assertive or confident enough to overrule a major Hollywood star who was also the producer of the movie. A union armorer would have the backing of all of the other union people on the set so if he called halt the other union people would walk off.

    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.

    Replies: @Corn, @Paperback Writer

    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.

    The armorer is supposed to check the gun before anyone else touches it. She laid it on a cart, the AD then gave it to Baldwin.

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you’re suggesting she’s one of the union people who sabotaged the gun… well… maybe, but I doubt it. I think she’s just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent – who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Paperback Writer

    PS

    This article indicates that a non-union replacement was the armorer who failed. It's all a muddle.

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/replacement-non-union-worker-was-in-charge-of-alec-baldwins-deadly-prop-gun/

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @rebel yell
    @Paperback Writer

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like "absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever" would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
    If you need to shoot a live round for a scene, for some reason, either do it somewhere else or make it a rare exception - one bullet is brought on the set for one day by one person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Jack D, @S

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Paperback Writer


    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you’re suggesting she’s one of the union people who sabotaged the gun… well… maybe, but I doubt it. I think she’s just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent – who Baldwin was party to hiring.
     
    It may also be that Alec Baldwin is extremely mean to the staff, which means they're so afraid of him that they trip all over themselves while doing their jobs. That's on him. He made the list of 25 of the most disagreeable actors, production-wise:

    Reportedly a nightmare to work with on the set of NBC’s 30 Rock, Alec Baldwin often showed up to set late, yelled at cast and crew, and complained about something as innocuous as “dry air.” His reputation for being difficult to work with goes back much further. The Week compiled a list of his many notable public freak outs — too numerous and confusing to list.
     
    It's possible Alec Baldwin's career will survive the notoriety. John Landis, who got Vic Morrow killed, landed on his feet and had his career go from strength to strength.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  120. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Baldwin was also a producer"

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it's loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he'll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he's a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    Replies: @Jack D, @JohnnyWalker123, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666

    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy)

    This sounds pretty interesting actually.

  121. @Che Guava
    As on the other side, I don't think many USN admirals were particularly clever.

    Togo, Yamamoto, brilliant.

    If only the gyre where the U.S.N. carriers had been hiding, with their antiquated aircraft had been known and attacked and sunk.

    In the war of northern supremacy, the southern side produced much new military technology on the sea, they put up a good fight on the sea, too, only to run out of resources.

    I will give one thing to the U.S.A., despite any of the larger ships being Love Boats now, and anyone knowing anything knows that the nukular subs are similarly luxurious, but they still have dedicated single-sex crews. I may be wrong there now. Very bad for the U..S.N. if so.

    Still, you always have John Philip D'Souza I am probably missing the standard spelling, but for Naval anthems, nobody else is close.

    Replies: @Che Guava, @gcochran, @No jack London

    Could it be that the few who wanted the war made sure that the USN carriers were safely out to sea?

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    @No jack London

    That has always been the clear fact.

  122. @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don't know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    Replies: @Muggles, @James B. Shearer, @Mike Tre, @Jim Don Bob

    “… But I still don’t know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. ..”

    The lefties had hated him for years and finally found a way to get rid of him. Helped by the fact that he was reportedly a total jerk who had made a lot of enemies.

  123. @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D


    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.
     
    The armorer is supposed to check the gun before anyone else touches it. She laid it on a cart, the AD then gave it to Baldwin.

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you're suggesting she's one of the union people who sabotaged the gun... well... maybe, but I doubt it. I think she's just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent - who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @rebel yell, @Johann Ricke

    PS

    This article indicates that a non-union replacement was the armorer who failed. It’s all a muddle.

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/replacement-non-union-worker-was-in-charge-of-alec-baldwins-deadly-prop-gun/

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Paperback Writer

    PPS

    It was the camera crew that had walked off. So the armorer responsible for the gun safety was the pink-haired slut.

    https://www.motherjones.com/media/2021/10/rust-alec-baldwin-strike-labor-gun-iatse/

  124. @CCZ
    The NEW Navy!!!!

    The Task Force 1 Navy Pledge (TF1N) [2020 Final Report]

    I will invest the time, attention and empathy required to analyze and evaluate Navywide issues related to racism, sexism, ableism and other structural and interpersonal biases.

    I pledge to be actively inclusive in the public and private spheres where I live and work, and proactively encourage others to do the same.

    I pledge to advocate for and acknowledge all lived experiences and intersectional identities of every Sailor in the Navy.

    I pledge to engage in ongoing self-reflection, education and knowledge sharing to better myself and my communities.

    I pledge to be an example in establishing healthy, inclusive and team-oriented environments.

    I pledge to constructively share all experiences and information gained from activities above to inform the development of Navywide reforms.

    Source: file:///C:/Users/charl/AppData/Local/Temp/TASK%20FORCE%20ONE%20NAVY%20FINAL%20REPORT.PDF

     

    Replies: @Anon, @El Dato

    There is no need to panic. This is actually the pledge of the Psychokinesis & Telepathy Special Section. They are a bit touchy-feely but they are the best when they have to mentally probe enemies from hundreds of miles away.

  125. @Elmer T. Jones
    @El Dato

    I think of the troubles I had in software engineering, which often boiled down to being managed by people who had no programming experience. Or worse, a PhD who wrote some Fortran code in college and thinks he understands it all. To them, software has no weight, therefor takes no time to write. It can be expanded as needed to meet schedule, which can be arbitrarily changed depending on the manager's mood, or the pressure they are getting from their managers. Since software has no mass, it also should have no cost. If the code was in progress before you arrived, they will assure you that "it was all working when Fred left, and he was a genius, everybody agrees". As for requirements, we told you what it was supposed to do, and you said you had everything you needed to code it. Missing features are your fault and you will have to put in heroic unpaid hours to "get it done". This is often followed by questions of "is it done yet?" or "when are you going to have it done?". Which themselves are followed up with "we can get an intern to do this" and "if you can't do it we will find someone who can", and "we can't afford this". The imaginary intern is the next Steve Jobs, really. Ready to hit the ground running with all the latest high-tech skills. Then there are the "co-workers"...

    Replies: @El Dato

    Been there, lived it.

    Software engineering/development in most settings outside of the big providers who can demand serious money seems to be a fucking joke nowadays and then you get managed by a sociopath who just received his MBA.

  126. @CW Acumen
    I thought the guy they suspect set the fire was angry for being bounced out of the SEALs training program. To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Buck Ransom, @Reg Cæsar

    To destroy billions of dollars of property over a girl sounds a little weak for motive. But then I was never much of a sailor.

    I spent a few semesters at an engineering school. Women were outnumbered something like 10- or 20-1. And the men were primarily nerds. That would breed a lot of competition and resentment– and there was a state teacher’s college not too far away that took care of most, perhaps all, of the imbalance.

    Now extrapolate this problem to, say, Point Nemo, where the closest other women are on the International Space Station…

    What I want to know is, why does the Public Health Service get to have an admiral, but the Coast Guard not? Why didn’t they accommod(ore)ate us?

  127. @Paperback Writer
    @Paperback Writer

    PS

    This article indicates that a non-union replacement was the armorer who failed. It's all a muddle.

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/replacement-non-union-worker-was-in-charge-of-alec-baldwins-deadly-prop-gun/

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    PPS

    It was the camera crew that had walked off. So the armorer responsible for the gun safety was the pink-haired slut.

    https://www.motherjones.com/media/2021/10/rust-alec-baldwin-strike-labor-gun-iatse/

  128. @Prester John
    @Feryl

    It's all of one piece--a society locked in death-dealing decadence. It happens to all societies and we're no different. Sit back. Resign yourself to this slow and steady plunge into what amounts to a septic tank. The only regret is that we won't be around for the inevitable rebirth.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    But there is no “ inevitable“ rebirth. Once the racial demographics of a country are permanently changed, it’s forever a different country.

    Once you become Brazil or Columbia or India, you’re done. Nothing but centuries of stagnation to look forward to.

    • Agree: AceDeuce
  129. @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D


    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.
     
    The armorer is supposed to check the gun before anyone else touches it. She laid it on a cart, the AD then gave it to Baldwin.

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you're suggesting she's one of the union people who sabotaged the gun... well... maybe, but I doubt it. I think she's just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent - who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @rebel yell, @Johann Ricke

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
    If you need to shoot a live round for a scene, for some reason, either do it somewhere else or make it a rare exception – one bullet is brought on the set for one day by one person.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @rebel yell


    Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
     
    It is.

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used?
     
    That is a good question.
    , @Jack D
    @rebel yell

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.


    Gun that went off in Alec Baldwin's hands and claimed the life of Halyna Hutchins was used for off-set target practice by crew members and live ammo and blanks were stored together, sources say
     
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124917/Gun-went-Alec-Baldwins-hands-killed-Halyna-Hutchins-used-target-practice.html

    Having live ammo on the set was a bad idea but how hard is it for someone to check the cylinder of the revolver? You don't have to be any great weapons expert. It's not subtle whether there are rounds in the chamber or not. There weren't even supposed to be blanks in the gun. It was a rehearsal. The gun was supposed to be completely empty. The armorer should have checked the cylinder and then the AD who handed Baldwin the gun should have double checked and then Baldwin should have done it too. It takes maybe 10 seconds and it literally would have saved someone's life. I don't care if Samuel Colt himself tells me "Cold Gun". Before I point a weapon at another human being and pull the trigger I am going to check that cylinder.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    , @S
    @rebel yell


    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
     
    I would even add 'blanks' to that because those have killed as well. Surely, the technology exist now to create realistic enough faux gunfire imagery on screen that it's not necessary to have anything potentially deadly on movie sets in the form of firearms.

    Maybe this incident with Baldwin will prove to be a catalyst.

    It's a bit remindful of those enclosed night clubs, some of which in the past have had a love affair with 'live pyrotechnics' (some of these pyrotechnics, supposedly, being building safe!?) on stage with their rock bands, basically what amounts to live fireworks inside a building, and as a result have experienced multiple instances of gruesome mass casualty fire events.

    The Station and Lame Horse nightclub fires in 2003 and 2009 respectively come to mind.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_Horse_fire

    The last of these major 'pyrotechnic' club fires took place about six years ago in Romania with 64 lives lost at the Collective club. So, maybe, the message has gotten through to stay away from the pyrotechnics ('building safe', or, not), and stick with the tried and true light shows.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nightclub_fires

    Replies: @Feryl

  130. @Hypnotoad666
    @Wilkey

    The Chinese don't need no hypersonic missiles, our Achilles Heel is an oily rag and a Bic lighter.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Paperback Writer

    But they do have them, can anyone explicate in informed fashion what this means for US aircraft carriers in the Pacific?

  131. @AceDeuce
    @Trelane

    Almost all modern aircraft/shipboard wiring has some variant of Teflon insulation. And there are few, if any "gauges"--most instrument displays are digital these days. No "phenolic plastic".

    Replies: @Trelane

    So what caught fire? Bedding, uniforms, carpeting, wooden furniture? It’s hard to believe a modern naval vessel couldn’t be made to be fireproof.

    Even if you permit flammable materials onboard you can still install sprinkler systems like we do with all apartment buildings lacking fire escapes.

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Trelane


    What causes a ship to burn down?
     
    The same reason a car burns down

    As they say in

    https://news.usni.org/2021/10/19/long-chain-of-failures-left-sailors-unprepared-to-fight-uss-bonhomme-richard-investigation-finds

    Bonhomme Richard was a ship splayed open for the shipyard availability and, as the lead investigator noted, “was particularly vulnerable to fire: having systems tagged out for maintenance; scaffolding, temporary services, and other contractor equipment hung throughout; a significant amount of ship’s gear, equipment, flammables and combustible material recently loaded onto the ship and packed into various spaces; and, more than three-quarters of the ship’s firefighting equipment was in an unknown status.”
     

    https://i.postimg.cc/C1d71Sjr/Inside-of-the-Bonhomme-Richard.png

    The you can't close hatches because of cabling. Once it gets hot enough inside, aluminum starts to burn too.

    This one is pretty cool:

    https://i.postimg.cc/76C14Xkp/Bonhomme-Richard-FLIR.png

    US Fire Pump forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imagery of BONHOMME RICHARD. US Navy Photo

    Replies: @El Dato

    , @bomag
    @Trelane

    Thanks to El Dato.


    What causes a ship to burn down?
     
    I was going to add that fuel, hydraulics, and gear boxes tend to spread fluids around their area, and there are enough hoists and such around a ship to flame it up pretty well.
  132. @Feryl
    @Anonymous

    The wokification of the military is indeed turning people off. I suspect that "thank you for your service" is something that Gen Z veterans, and perhaps even Millennial veterans, won't be able to count on in the coming years as the military turns it's back on the white guys who historically were the backbone of the US military. Really stupid of leadership to desperately pander to both non-whites (who historically didn't have much buy in on serving a country they didn't create, leaving aside their intellectual capabilities) and females (who lack the physical and emotional character to become a part of a cohesive and effective military unity, plus at any time they can get pregnant and be out of action)

    Replies: @Prester John, @Cortes, @Anonymous

    Around 10 years ago I had a long layover at Dallas awaiting a flight to London and saw a young guy in military gear being given the “Thank you for your service” bit by an overweight civilian not much older than the soldier. The encounter looked cordial enough but the civilian moved away and the look on the young guy in uniform’s face was one of anger.

  133. @Mike Tre
    @JohnnyWalker123

    If a gun loaded with blanks is fired at another person at point blank range it could kill them. Baldwin has been working with prop firearms for what? 40 years? He surely knows this. It also says another person was wounded. How many shots were fired?

    Replies: @JMcG, @Paperback Writer, @James Forrestal

    British papers are reporting a live cartridge was loaded. I just can’t imagine.

  134. @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don't know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    Replies: @Muggles, @James B. Shearer, @Mike Tre, @Jim Don Bob

    The left will come for every straight white male eventually, no matter how hard they cuck. It was Cuomo’s turn.

  135. @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    This is the most complete account of the on-set problems:

    https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set


    Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

    Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

    Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.
     
    Clearly, there was some problem with the competence of the armorer, a slut named Hannah Gutierrez Reed:

    https://celebhook.com/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer-thell-reed-daughter/

    Baldwin is one of the producers. If he were simply an actor who was handed a gun, he'd be off the hook. But as one of the producers of a movie that was mired in problems, he's in deep shit.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Just because you are a pink haired slut doesn’t mean you are incompetent.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    She put the gun on the prop table. This is competence?

  136. @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer

    Just because you are a pink haired slut doesn't mean you are incompetent.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    She put the gun on the prop table. This is competence?

  137. @rebel yell
    @Paperback Writer

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like "absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever" would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
    If you need to shoot a live round for a scene, for some reason, either do it somewhere else or make it a rare exception - one bullet is brought on the set for one day by one person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Jack D, @S

    Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.

    It is.

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used?

    That is a good question.

  138. @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D


    2. The union people sabotaged the movie by substituting live ammunition for blanks. If this is true, whoever did this is guilty of murder.
     
    The armorer is supposed to check the gun before anyone else touches it. She laid it on a cart, the AD then gave it to Baldwin.

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you're suggesting she's one of the union people who sabotaged the gun... well... maybe, but I doubt it. I think she's just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent - who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @rebel yell, @Johann Ricke

    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you’re suggesting she’s one of the union people who sabotaged the gun… well… maybe, but I doubt it. I think she’s just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent – who Baldwin was party to hiring.

    It may also be that Alec Baldwin is extremely mean to the staff, which means they’re so afraid of him that they trip all over themselves while doing their jobs. That’s on him. He made the list of 25 of the most disagreeable actors, production-wise:

    Reportedly a nightmare to work with on the set of NBC’s 30 Rock, Alec Baldwin often showed up to set late, yelled at cast and crew, and complained about something as innocuous as “dry air.” His reputation for being difficult to work with goes back much further. The Week compiled a list of his many notable public freak outs — too numerous and confusing to list.

    It’s possible Alec Baldwin’s career will survive the notoriety. John Landis, who got Vic Morrow killed, landed on his feet and had his career go from strength to strength.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Johann Ricke

    Baldwin is certainly playing the sympathy card. Saw a pic of him hugging Hutchins' husband. Shoot and cry indeed.

    We'll see how this works out, but I think his career is over. I'm not defending Landis at all - if I'd been on that jury it would have been hung, but that case was way more complicated than this. He pointed a gun at people and pulled the trigger. You can't get more stupid than that.

    There are numerous "gun safety on movie sets" websites - they all say you do not point a gun, even a so-called cold gun, at anyone. And then pull the trigger?

    Madness.

  139. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    Why did Baldwin aim the weapon at a cinematographer? Why did Baldwin then pull the trigger?

    It’s pretty clear that this is a manslaughter charge at a minimum: there is no reasonable justification for pointing a weapon – loaded or otherwise – at a cinematographer.

    I was told it wasn’t loaded” is not relevant: there was no reason to point the weapon at any person, except in the context of filming.

    If it was a weapon that can be rendered incapable of discharge (i.e., it has a ‘safety’) then there was a third element requiring intent: opening the action (i.e., taking off the ‘safety’).

    Anyone who has had even the most basic training in firearms handling knows that when handed a weapon, always assume that the weapon is loaded and it is ‘action-open’ (i.e., the safety is off).

    As an aside: this facts to date appear to be fundamentally different to the events surrounding the death of Brandon Lee on the set of ‘The Crow‘ years ago.

    It’s gonna suck to be Baldwin from here on out, either way.

    Patsy (a deliberate hot gun) or just stupid: either way would qualify as depraved indifference – and hence murder 2 – if it was a normal person.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Kratoklastes

    All the gun safety on the set webpages I've consulted said that you never point a gun at a person. You assume that it's loaded even if it's a checked, "cold" gun.

    This happened during a rehearsal, no less. Even less reason to pull the trigger.

    I don't know if Baldwin is going to get into trouble but he should. His negligence was off the charts.

    What about those dramatic "gun to the camera" scenes? If someone with knowledge of movie cameras could weigh in that would be good. I can't believe that they can't set up the shot, start the camera, and have the operator* move away before the trigger is pulled.

    *The director of photography (DP) and the camera operator are two different people but on a low-budget flick the DP might have done double duty, in fact, from what I gather about this, she prob was.

    Replies: @Jack D

  140. @Anon
    @CCZ

    It is interesting to compare the “pledge” to the swearing in by a still serious country - yes, that country being Israel.

    “I swear and commit to maintain allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and its authorities, to accept​ upon myself unconditionally the discipline of the Israel Defense Forces, to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, and to devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life, for the protection of the homeland and the liberty of Israel.”

    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Bill Jones

    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.

    They should stamp each Tavor rifle paid for with US funds with a “USAID FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE” logo. Hell, where’s my free Tavor?

  141. “…a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she headed out to a vending machine after her watch.”

    Women and ships… nobody can say they weren’t warned.

    “Oh, that’s just an superstition”, they said.

    Rum, sodomy and the lash, but no bitches, bitchez.

  142. @PiltdownMan
    I was going to contribute a picture of Adm. Spruance to go along with the picture of Adm. Halsey I posted a couple of days ago, and then found this rare picture of the two of them together. It's easy to forget in peacetime and in this modern era, but very senior military commanders who were contemporaries in WWII (and earlier) sometimes didn't meet at all, during the course of the war, unless there was a direct reporting line. They were busy with their respective commands, and theaters of responsibility.

    https://i.imgur.com/Ors2uGf.jpg?1

    Spruance is on the right.

    Replies: @Tim

    I don’t think that is Halsey, I think that’s Chesty Puller.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @Tim

    I agree it looks like Chesty Puller, and I wondered for a while if it was Chester Nimitz instead, with whom Spruance was photographed on a number of occasions. I was surprised to see Halsey wearing that hat, more typical of the Marine Corps.

    But the caption, from the U.S. Naval Institute, is unambiguous.



    Off Okinawa, 3rd Fleet commander Admiral William Halsey arrives aboard the New Mexico (BB-40) prior to relieving Admiral Raymond Spruance (right), commander of the 5th Fleet.
    National Archives

     
    https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2016/april/halsey-and-spruance-study-contrasts

    An online database, navsource.org, maintained by ex-Navy enthusiasts, is even more specific.



    Admirals William F. Halsey (left) and Raymond A. Spruance (right) aboard New Mexico (BB-40) on 27 May 1945. New Mexico had become 5th fleet flagship of Admiral Spruance the previous 5 April. USN photo courtesy of David Buell.
     
  143. I always thought that firefighting was, like, the NUMBER ONE job of sailors. That’s one of the reasons I joined the Army. . . That, and I’m not gay.

    • LOL: Old Prude
  144. @Mike Tre
    "But, the U.S. Navy is supposed to be pretty good at putting out fires. "

    I spent 14 months of my 4 year enlistment in the Marines aboard two separate LPD's between 1998 and 2001. The ships' crews went to General Quarters almost every single day at sea, including Sundays. Every shop on board has its very specific designated duty during general quarters, and firefighting was taken very seriously. Imagine being in the Persian Gulf in August and donning 40 pounds of firefighting gear then running around the cramped un-air conditioned spaces of a navy ship simulating firefighting procedures. The seamen would also practice fire hose handling, usually requiring at least two men to man a single hose due to the enormous force of the water pressure. They also simulated evacuating smoke filled compartments and berthing areas below decks by blindfolding a team of sailors and having them attempt to find their way above deck within a certain period of time.

    So the obvious guess is that intensive firefighting training has given way to more important things, like promoting broads and negroes so their feelings don't get hurt. Training tends to dip when a ship is in port to begin with, but if the BHR had been in dock for over a year, combined with more vibrant leadership, training probably degenerated to optional attendance to morning formation.

    "Just after 8:00 a.m., a junior sailor walked through the upper vehicle deck as she "

    Say no more. Female sailors are about as useful as a male wet nurse.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Dutch Boy, @The Mestizo

    I was an airman turned shipboard firefighter on our glorious USS Constellation CV-64 on August 2, 1988. I was 100% certain that I would die each time I donned an OBA. I don’t blame these boys for shirking duty . The Anglo-Saxon enforced misandry they bear on a constant and daily basis must be intolerable.

  145. @Mike Tre
    @JohnnyWalker123

    If a gun loaded with blanks is fired at another person at point blank range it could kill them. Baldwin has been working with prop firearms for what? 40 years? He surely knows this. It also says another person was wounded. How many shots were fired?

    Replies: @JMcG, @Paperback Writer, @James Forrestal

    How many shots were fired?

    One.

  146. @Trelane
    @AceDeuce

    So what caught fire? Bedding, uniforms, carpeting, wooden furniture? It's hard to believe a modern naval vessel couldn't be made to be fireproof.

    Even if you permit flammable materials onboard you can still install sprinkler systems like we do with all apartment buildings lacking fire escapes.

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    Replies: @El Dato, @bomag

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    The same reason a car burns down

    As they say in

    https://news.usni.org/2021/10/19/long-chain-of-failures-left-sailors-unprepared-to-fight-uss-bonhomme-richard-investigation-finds

    Bonhomme Richard was a ship splayed open for the shipyard availability and, as the lead investigator noted, “was particularly vulnerable to fire: having systems tagged out for maintenance; scaffolding, temporary services, and other contractor equipment hung throughout; a significant amount of ship’s gear, equipment, flammables and combustible material recently loaded onto the ship and packed into various spaces; and, more than three-quarters of the ship’s firefighting equipment was in an unknown status.”


    The you can’t close hatches because of cabling. Once it gets hot enough inside, aluminum starts to burn too.

    This one is pretty cool:

    US Fire Pump forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imagery of BONHOMME RICHARD. US Navy Photo

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @El Dato

    Also, as fire engulfs the ship after a whole day of being out of control:


    At 6:55 p.m. a second explosion jolted the ship, caused “multiple minor concussive and blast-type injuries,” and prompted a second evacuation that halted firefighting efforts for several hours, the investigation states.

    It “originated from an 8-inch Fuel, Jet Propulsion (JP-5) fuel pipe located in an auxiliaries division compartment underneath the Upper V ramp on the port side of the ship, Valve Grinding Area (3-81-2-Q),” investigators found. “This explosion blew a watertight door from an adjacent compartment, Engine Test Area (3-82-2-Q), across to the starboard side of Upper V and resulted in a large fireball.”
     
    (It would be nice to have a longer editing window than just the 3 minutes, in particular as post may languish in moderation for some time.)
  147. @El Dato
    @Trelane


    What causes a ship to burn down?
     
    The same reason a car burns down

    As they say in

    https://news.usni.org/2021/10/19/long-chain-of-failures-left-sailors-unprepared-to-fight-uss-bonhomme-richard-investigation-finds

    Bonhomme Richard was a ship splayed open for the shipyard availability and, as the lead investigator noted, “was particularly vulnerable to fire: having systems tagged out for maintenance; scaffolding, temporary services, and other contractor equipment hung throughout; a significant amount of ship’s gear, equipment, flammables and combustible material recently loaded onto the ship and packed into various spaces; and, more than three-quarters of the ship’s firefighting equipment was in an unknown status.”
     

    https://i.postimg.cc/C1d71Sjr/Inside-of-the-Bonhomme-Richard.png

    The you can't close hatches because of cabling. Once it gets hot enough inside, aluminum starts to burn too.

    This one is pretty cool:

    https://i.postimg.cc/76C14Xkp/Bonhomme-Richard-FLIR.png

    US Fire Pump forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imagery of BONHOMME RICHARD. US Navy Photo

    Replies: @El Dato

    Also, as fire engulfs the ship after a whole day of being out of control:

    At 6:55 p.m. a second explosion jolted the ship, caused “multiple minor concussive and blast-type injuries,” and prompted a second evacuation that halted firefighting efforts for several hours, the investigation states.

    It “originated from an 8-inch Fuel, Jet Propulsion (JP-5) fuel pipe located in an auxiliaries division compartment underneath the Upper V ramp on the port side of the ship, Valve Grinding Area (3-81-2-Q),” investigators found. “This explosion blew a watertight door from an adjacent compartment, Engine Test Area (3-82-2-Q), across to the starboard side of Upper V and resulted in a large fireball.”

    (It would be nice to have a longer editing window than just the 3 minutes, in particular as post may languish in moderation for some time.)

    • Thanks: Trelane
  148. @Trelane
    @AceDeuce

    So what caught fire? Bedding, uniforms, carpeting, wooden furniture? It's hard to believe a modern naval vessel couldn't be made to be fireproof.

    Even if you permit flammable materials onboard you can still install sprinkler systems like we do with all apartment buildings lacking fire escapes.

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    Replies: @El Dato, @bomag

    Thanks to El Dato.

    What causes a ship to burn down?

    I was going to add that fuel, hydraulics, and gear boxes tend to spread fluids around their area, and there are enough hoists and such around a ship to flame it up pretty well.

  149. @Johann Ricke
    @Paperback Writer


    She should have seen the bullet in the chamber. If you’re suggesting she’s one of the union people who sabotaged the gun… well… maybe, but I doubt it. I think she’s just a really stupid kid, a total incompetent – who Baldwin was party to hiring.
     
    It may also be that Alec Baldwin is extremely mean to the staff, which means they're so afraid of him that they trip all over themselves while doing their jobs. That's on him. He made the list of 25 of the most disagreeable actors, production-wise:

    Reportedly a nightmare to work with on the set of NBC’s 30 Rock, Alec Baldwin often showed up to set late, yelled at cast and crew, and complained about something as innocuous as “dry air.” His reputation for being difficult to work with goes back much further. The Week compiled a list of his many notable public freak outs — too numerous and confusing to list.
     
    It's possible Alec Baldwin's career will survive the notoriety. John Landis, who got Vic Morrow killed, landed on his feet and had his career go from strength to strength.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Baldwin is certainly playing the sympathy card. Saw a pic of him hugging Hutchins’ husband. Shoot and cry indeed.

    We’ll see how this works out, but I think his career is over. I’m not defending Landis at all – if I’d been on that jury it would have been hung, but that case was way more complicated than this. He pointed a gun at people and pulled the trigger. You can’t get more stupid than that.

    There are numerous “gun safety on movie sets” websites – they all say you do not point a gun, even a so-called cold gun, at anyone. And then pull the trigger?

    Madness.

  150. @Tim
    @PiltdownMan

    I don't think that is Halsey, I think that's Chesty Puller.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I agree it looks like Chesty Puller, and I wondered for a while if it was Chester Nimitz instead, with whom Spruance was photographed on a number of occasions. I was surprised to see Halsey wearing that hat, more typical of the Marine Corps.

    But the caption, from the U.S. Naval Institute, is unambiguous.


    Off Okinawa, 3rd Fleet commander Admiral William Halsey arrives aboard the New Mexico (BB-40) prior to relieving Admiral Raymond Spruance (right), commander of the 5th Fleet.
    National Archives

    https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2016/april/halsey-and-spruance-study-contrasts

    An online database, navsource.org, maintained by ex-Navy enthusiasts, is even more specific.

    Admirals William F. Halsey (left) and Raymond A. Spruance (right) aboard New Mexico (BB-40) on 27 May 1945. New Mexico had become 5th fleet flagship of Admiral Spruance the previous 5 April. USN photo courtesy of David Buell.

  151. @Kratoklastes
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Why did Baldwin aim the weapon at a cinematographer? Why did Baldwin then pull the trigger?

    It's pretty clear that this is a manslaughter charge at a minimum: there is no reasonable justification for pointing a weapon - loaded or otherwise - at a cinematographer.

    "I was told it wasn't loaded" is not relevant: there was no reason to point the weapon at any person, except in the context of filming.

    If it was a weapon that can be rendered incapable of discharge (i.e., it has a 'safety') then there was a third element requiring intent: opening the action (i.e., taking off the 'safety').

    Anyone who has had even the most basic training in firearms handling knows that when handed a weapon, always assume that the weapon is loaded and it is 'action-open' (i.e., the safety is off).


    As an aside: this facts to date appear to be fundamentally different to the events surrounding the death of Brandon Lee on the set of 'The Crow' years ago.

    It's gonna suck to be Baldwin from here on out, either way.

    Patsy (a deliberate hot gun) or just stupid: either way would qualify as depraved indifference - and hence murder 2 - if it was a normal person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    All the gun safety on the set webpages I’ve consulted said that you never point a gun at a person. You assume that it’s loaded even if it’s a checked, “cold” gun.

    This happened during a rehearsal, no less. Even less reason to pull the trigger.

    I don’t know if Baldwin is going to get into trouble but he should. His negligence was off the charts.

    What about those dramatic “gun to the camera” scenes? If someone with knowledge of movie cameras could weigh in that would be good. I can’t believe that they can’t set up the shot, start the camera, and have the operator* move away before the trigger is pulled.

    *The director of photography (DP) and the camera operator are two different people but on a low-budget flick the DP might have done double duty, in fact, from what I gather about this, she prob was.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer


    Weapons must be tightly managed by an armorer, sometimes credited on films as a “weapons master,” who holds various government-issued permits. Some states, for instance, require an entertainment firearms license in addition to standard gun licenses. Cast members should be trained in gun safety in advance. Guns should never be pointed directly at anyone, especially in rehearsals but even during actual filming, since camera trickery can be used to compensate for the angle. If necessary, plexiglass is used to protect the camera operator and surrounding crew members.

    And no live ammunition, ever.

    “Protocol had to have been broken,” said Daniel Leonard, an associate dean of Chapman University’s film school
     
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/business/prop-guns-baldwin-shooting.html

    Someone is dead and there are rules in place which, if followed, insure that that never happens, so clearly rules were broken. The investigation will determine which rules were broken and by who and whether this rises to the level of criminal responsibility.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  152. First the new and improved dieverse (sic) navy is running their ships aground or colliding with other vessels and now they can’t even put out fires on ships which should be routine.

  153. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:
    @Feryl
    @Anonymous

    The wokification of the military is indeed turning people off. I suspect that "thank you for your service" is something that Gen Z veterans, and perhaps even Millennial veterans, won't be able to count on in the coming years as the military turns it's back on the white guys who historically were the backbone of the US military. Really stupid of leadership to desperately pander to both non-whites (who historically didn't have much buy in on serving a country they didn't create, leaving aside their intellectual capabilities) and females (who lack the physical and emotional character to become a part of a cohesive and effective military unity, plus at any time they can get pregnant and be out of action)

    Replies: @Prester John, @Cortes, @Anonymous

    It should be obvious by now that the people running the country are far more afraid of ordinary white guys than of any foreign enemy. They want them out of the army, the navy, the police, and every other armed force.

    The resulting ‘woke’ military will be useless in a serious war, but will be no threat to the rulers, which is the only thing they care about. (See what Stalin did to the Red Army in the 1930s for another example.)

  154. @Hibernian
    @Dr. X


    Britain would not have “won” World Wars I and II at all were it not for American assistance
     
    Plus, to a certain extent, Soviet assistance in WW2, with the caveat that some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution.

    Replies: @Jack D

    some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution

    I would say quite the opposite. Most Americans (used to) know what D-Day was, but how many Americans know about the Battle of Kursk?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    I'm thinking of some extreme left wing Soviet apologists and their strange bedfellows on the extreme right, who can be found on Ron's site, although they're not that numerous on Steve's blog. I'm aware of the people you're speaking of.

  155. @Paperback Writer
    @Kratoklastes

    All the gun safety on the set webpages I've consulted said that you never point a gun at a person. You assume that it's loaded even if it's a checked, "cold" gun.

    This happened during a rehearsal, no less. Even less reason to pull the trigger.

    I don't know if Baldwin is going to get into trouble but he should. His negligence was off the charts.

    What about those dramatic "gun to the camera" scenes? If someone with knowledge of movie cameras could weigh in that would be good. I can't believe that they can't set up the shot, start the camera, and have the operator* move away before the trigger is pulled.

    *The director of photography (DP) and the camera operator are two different people but on a low-budget flick the DP might have done double duty, in fact, from what I gather about this, she prob was.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Weapons must be tightly managed by an armorer, sometimes credited on films as a “weapons master,” who holds various government-issued permits. Some states, for instance, require an entertainment firearms license in addition to standard gun licenses. Cast members should be trained in gun safety in advance. Guns should never be pointed directly at anyone, especially in rehearsals but even during actual filming, since camera trickery can be used to compensate for the angle. If necessary, plexiglass is used to protect the camera operator and surrounding crew members.

    And no live ammunition, ever.

    “Protocol had to have been broken,” said Daniel Leonard, an associate dean of Chapman University’s film school

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/business/prop-guns-baldwin-shooting.html

    Someone is dead and there are rules in place which, if followed, insure that that never happens, so clearly rules were broken. The investigation will determine which rules were broken and by who and whether this rises to the level of criminal responsibility.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    The media, after being relatively quiet on this for a while, seem to be looking for someone other than Mr. Baldwin on whom to blame it. Such people, and I think there legitimately are some, or at least one, are co-responsible with Baldwin. They don't get him off the hook. Based on the fact that the round went through the decedent and wounded another person, Baldwin almost certainly aimed at or almost at her and pulled the trigger, and it was definitely a live round. Baldwin has had anger management issues in the past. He's going to face a New Mexico jury, not an LA one. OTOH, he's going to have the best lawyers money can buy. Kinda like OJ.

  156. anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai
    A similar fire gutted Russia's only aircraft carrier, the aging Soviet-era Admiral Kuznetsov in 2019. The fire did enough damage (The ship was in for refitting and repairs to fix damage from a previous incident and to extend it's life) that there are questions as to if it will be repaired.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDyCEdv1dlg

    One of it's unfinished sister ships was bought off the Ukrainian government by a supposed Chinese consortium only interested in turning it into a floating casino but was obviously for delivery to the PLN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning

    They eventually finished the ship and turned it into the main training ship for their new carrier fleet. They built one ship largely based on the old design and are now almost finished a much larger ship of their own design, with a second of the same class and another much larger nuclear carrier also under construction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

    Replies: @Cortes, @El Dato, @anonymous

    China appears to be taking a more conservative approach.

    Type 001 (Liaoning) – The training carrier was commissioned in 2012 and entered service in 2016.

    Type 002 (Shandong) – In service

    Type 003 – Under construction and expected to enter service in 2023

    Type 004 – Nuclear powered carrier under construction

    It was reported in 2019 (and newer reports don’t contradict it) that the construction of No. 5 and No. 6 (the supercarriers) was canceled. That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore. If a swarm of drones can attack a carrier and hit the flight deck, then what use is a carrier in a war? If China has three carriers (not counting the training carrier) then it will be able to deploy one carrier at any time (as 1-2 would at anytime be unavailable for maintenance). A single carrier may be useful for some operations but not for a war with the US.

    • Replies: @rebel yell
    @anonymous


    That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore
     
    Carriers still have one key role: Big powers need carriers to bomb small powers who can't shoot back. The purpose of bombing the small powers isn't to "defeat" them in a traditional military sense. The purpose is to wreck the civil and economic life and reduce the small power to a state of anarchy and war-lord statelets. Libya is a case in point.
    Note that Russia and China don't seem to anticipate a need for carriers, but our government does.
    , @Altai
    @anonymous

    Carriers might be increasingly obsolete as giant expensive targets against peer military powers but if you're not planning on going to war with another great power with weapons that threaten them, they're still a powerful way to exert power and deploy air power against weaker countries. (Russia's carrier might be easy prey for any formation of American surface or submarine vessels but it's not going to face them and instead gets to act as a valuable airbase in the Syria civil war, for example)

    They're also useful in ratcheting up tension with another great power that is trying to intimidate you with their own carriers.

    And it's not even necessarily only a hedge. Does anyone really believe that the US will go to war with the PRC over Taiwan? Or any of the territories they are trying to annex? John McCain is dead so the possibility of a president who'll do it is pretty close to nil right now.

    And, finally, there is the intangible power of prestige. Most people in the world aren't thinking "But in terms of the near future, hypersonic weapons make these ships potentially a serious liability", they'll be impressed by them and the PRC will gain respect.

  157. @Muggles
    @Dan Hayes

    Sometimes the Trotskyites and wreckers manage to win.

    Poor Stalin, poor Stalin.

    (Best not to warn them when you plan to give them the chop. Just kick in their door at 4 AM.)

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    (Best not to warn them when you plan to give them the chop. Just kick in their door at 4 AM.)

    Sounds like a textbook case of, “pride comes before the fall.”

    Still, it is impressive and disturbing that someone like Hochul, who hails from the far western end of NY, was able to wrest power from Cuomo, who was part of an entrenched, multi-generational, downstate political mafia.

    I have to wonder if DeBlasio, who controls NYC and is no friend of Cuomo, played a pivotal role in this coup. This is because, in some ways, the mayor of NYC is more powerful than the governor of NY state.

  158. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Jack D

    "Now Baldwin could have checked the cylinder himself ... but probably wasn't obligated to do so"

    This is lizard-speak, but you're probably, technically, correct. I wrote "he could and should" be charged with negligent homicide. Morally, he's culpable. Legally, the gun handler will probably take the wrap because Baldwin's political allies in the media will twist the narrative to such an extent people will believe that the gun handler was the actual trigger-puller. I have no animus toward Baldwin; I like the guy despite his dickish qualities. He alone killed that woman.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    Baldwin’s political allies in the media will twist the narrative ..

    I don’t know about his political allies, but when I turned on the TV, wanting to learn about this story (24 hrs late), I was appalled by how the idiot reporters were spinning it:

    • the good looking guy was visibly shaken.
    • accidental shootings happen all the time.
    • tuck Frump.

    They should re-shoot the scene (i.e. take two). At the very least, the actor should be offered the role of President of the NRA.

  159. @gcochran
    @Che Guava

    Yamamoto was an idiot.

    Replies: @Che Guava

    No, he was ordered to plan something he did not agree with, did his best, and was badly let down by Noguma.

    You clearly have only a moron’s idea of any loyal military.

  160. @rebel yell
    @Paperback Writer

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like "absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever" would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
    If you need to shoot a live round for a scene, for some reason, either do it somewhere else or make it a rare exception - one bullet is brought on the set for one day by one person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Jack D, @S

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.

    Gun that went off in Alec Baldwin’s hands and claimed the life of Halyna Hutchins was used for off-set target practice by crew members and live ammo and blanks were stored together, sources say

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124917/Gun-went-Alec-Baldwins-hands-killed-Halyna-Hutchins-used-target-practice.html

    Having live ammo on the set was a bad idea but how hard is it for someone to check the cylinder of the revolver? You don’t have to be any great weapons expert. It’s not subtle whether there are rounds in the chamber or not. There weren’t even supposed to be blanks in the gun. It was a rehearsal. The gun was supposed to be completely empty. The armorer should have checked the cylinder and then the AD who handed Baldwin the gun should have double checked and then Baldwin should have done it too. It takes maybe 10 seconds and it literally would have saved someone’s life. I don’t care if Samuel Colt himself tells me “Cold Gun”. Before I point a weapon at another human being and pull the trigger I am going to check that cylinder.

    • Agree: rebel yell, Corn
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Jack D

    The clip that you quoted is telling of the bias throughout all the story-telling about this.


    Gun that went off in Alec Baldwin’s hands
     
    No. The gun didn't "go off".

    The asshole pointed it at someone without knowing it was loaded (and that's the most generous interpretation- He might have known it was loaded.) and pulled the trigger.

    Only one person is responsible for that act.

  161. https://www.thefocus.news/culture/alec-baldwin-4chan/

    Anonymous website 4chan reportedly leaked the news of the accidental on-set shooting involving Alec Baldwin before official news broke – and no one believed it. Here’s what happened.

    Although the official story broke on 22 October 2021, a 4chan’s TV forum appears to have known about the shooting incident beforehand as a user seemingly leaked the news online.

    Since 4chan is anonymous, the user felt safe sharing the news leak and likely works in the film industry.

    While the original post has now been deleted, a user named @ApexPigg shared a screenshot of the 4chan broadcast on Twitter.

    Posted by an anonymous profile on 21 October 2021, the message bluntly stated Alec Baldwin had just accidentally shot two people on set with a loaded blank gun.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Paperback Writer


    Do not play with weapons and never point one at anyone, including yourself.
     
    https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf
  162. @Reg Cæsar
    Baltimore-born admiral gained fame in the Battle of Midway

    This is not Raymond Spruance's Baltimore anymore, either. Butt Butt, he daid...

    Dirt biker dies after being dragged under Baltimore City fire truck in crash

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    Butt-Butt was a good neighbor and had a white sheet placed over him post-bike ride. The witness known as “Fire” was appalled the Baltimore Police didn’t know that someone stole the ex-bike rider’s bike after the crash. I wonder what happened to the actual fire the fire engine was racing towards? At least good neighbor Butt-Butt got an obituary on the local news.

  163. @Paperback Writer
    https://www.thefocus.news/culture/alec-baldwin-4chan/

    Anonymous website 4chan reportedly leaked the news of the accidental on-set shooting involving Alec Baldwin before official news broke – and no one believed it. Here’s what happened.

    Although the official story broke on 22 October 2021, a 4chan’s TV forum appears to have known about the shooting incident beforehand as a user seemingly leaked the news online.

    Since 4chan is anonymous, the user felt safe sharing the news leak and likely works in the film industry.

    While the original post has now been deleted, a user named @ApexPigg shared a screenshot of the 4chan broadcast on Twitter.

    Posted by an anonymous profile on 21 October 2021, the message bluntly stated Alec Baldwin had just accidentally shot two people on set with a loaded blank gun.
     

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Do not play with weapons and never point one at anyone, including yourself.

    https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf

  164. “hazy, white fog” the sailor on watch probably figured some other sailor was vaping and wouldn’t dream of judging someone for rule violations

  165. @additionalMike
    @Buffalo Joe

    Andrew is a bad man, no doubt, although smart enough to avoid prosecution when his closet advisors went to jail. No paper trail, I guess.
    But I still don't know why the Party turned on him and drove him from office. I have not heard so much as a rumor. Full radio silence from the media, at least for now.

    Replies: @Muggles, @James B. Shearer, @Mike Tre, @Jim Don Bob

    Cuomo was also considered to be a threat to Kamalaho’s 2024 ambitions.

  166. @Trelane
    Stainless steel compartments catch fire and burn out of control.

    Somebody here said this is due to the vinyl insulation on electrical wires, the phenolic plastic around instrument gauges or reams of paperwork and softbound officer's manuals.

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Neil Templeton, @AceDeuce, @Bill Jones

    How does a naval vessel ignite, catch fire and burn down practically to the sea? Anybody? How does that happen.

    I guess they’ve forgotten to use fireproof wallpaper for the various victim groups safe spaces.

  167. On the subject of fire:

    ‘Naive is an understatement’: German safety official tells RT that risk of electric vehicle fires is ‘completely unaddressed’

    Europe is experiencing a green transport boom. Sales have quadrupled since 2018, and one in every ten new vehicles sold on the continent is now fully electric, a share that rises to four in ten when hybrid vehicles are taken into account. In Germany, where the Greens are in talks about joining a coalition government, the number of electric buses doubled last year compared to 2019.

    The switchover from diesel to electricity has not been entirely smooth. Three bus depots were gutted by fire this year alone, with the most recent in Stuttgart last month destroying 25 buses and sending a column of smoke towering over the city.

    The fires prompted the cities of Munich and Stuttgart to suspend use of these battery-powered buses, and Heinrich Duepmann of Germany’s Electricity Consumer Protection Association told RT that he shares their concerns ​​– not just about buses, but electric vehicles in general.

    “The risk of these fires, including in other locations such as bicycle basements or large apartment blocks, is completely unaddressed,” he said. “Also, insurance companies are not yet tackling the issue.”

  168. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Baldwin was also a producer"

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it's loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he'll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he's a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    Replies: @Jack D, @JohnnyWalker123, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666

    I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    LOL. As you say, “your body will survive a few more decades but your brain will succumb to a subliminally-induced senility.”

    What on Earth is an “underwear guy?” It that like a body double who wears briefs? Did you shove a rolled up sock down there, to protect Alec’s image?

    I’m glad you and he eventually got along, because I like Alec. (I think I like you too, but maybe not in your underwear, okay?) He’s one of those love-’em-but-also-hate-’em kind of guys. Subject to overly aggressive responses that he doesn’t take seriously, like me. That’s the key to know: He doesn’t take it seriously. I understand. God bless him. I’m certain whatever went wrong on set was not his fault.

  169. @JohnnyWalker123
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1451396601591697412

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1451633992403353603

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Sebastian Y., @JimDandy, @Hypnotoad666, @Mike Tre, @Jack D, @Kratoklastes, @Bill Jones

    New Mexico’s Manslaughter law includes this line:
    “the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.”

    Pointing a gun, specifically designed to kill people, at a person and then pulling the trigger would certainly seem to be ” without due caution and circumspection.”,

    I don’t see how how Baldwin escapes a manslaughter charge (unless he turns into a black transsexual).

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Bill Jones

    Baldwin will say (and he is probably right) that he was entitled to rely on the Assistant Director who shouted out "cold gun" as he handed it to Baldwin. A cold gun is supposed to be the equivalent of a toy guy - if a gun is cold it is either not capable of firing bullets or at the very least has been checked and found to be empty. There is nothing wrong with firing a cold gun at someone - people do this when they play paintball all the time.

    The Assistant Director may say that he pronounced cold gun because he was informed of this by the armorer and was legally entitled to rely on her professional opinion. At some point the buck will stop and someone (probably the armorer) is going to take a legal hit because she said it was a cold gun and it wasn't and it was her job to be able to tell the difference. She was the one who did her job without due caution and circumspection.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  170. @Anon
    @CCZ

    It is interesting to compare the “pledge” to the swearing in by a still serious country - yes, that country being Israel.

    “I swear and commit to maintain allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and its authorities, to accept​ upon myself unconditionally the discipline of the Israel Defense Forces, to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, and to devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life, for the protection of the homeland and the liberty of Israel.”

    Each soldier then receives his rifle and a Hebrew Bible.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @Bill Jones

    to obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders,

    Would seem to imply that it includes illegal orders.

  171. @anonymous
    @Altai

    China appears to be taking a more conservative approach.


    Type 001 (Liaoning) - The training carrier was commissioned in 2012 and entered service in 2016.

    Type 002 (Shandong) - In service

    Type 003 - Under construction and expected to enter service in 2023

    Type 004 - Nuclear powered carrier under construction
     
    It was reported in 2019 (and newer reports don't contradict it) that the construction of No. 5 and No. 6 (the supercarriers) was canceled. That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore. If a swarm of drones can attack a carrier and hit the flight deck, then what use is a carrier in a war? If China has three carriers (not counting the training carrier) then it will be able to deploy one carrier at any time (as 1-2 would at anytime be unavailable for maintenance). A single carrier may be useful for some operations but not for a war with the US.

    Replies: @rebel yell, @Altai

    That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore

    Carriers still have one key role: Big powers need carriers to bomb small powers who can’t shoot back. The purpose of bombing the small powers isn’t to “defeat” them in a traditional military sense. The purpose is to wreck the civil and economic life and reduce the small power to a state of anarchy and war-lord statelets. Libya is a case in point.
    Note that Russia and China don’t seem to anticipate a need for carriers, but our government does.

  172. Cuomo was a born-again expedient leftist who was never really trusted by the true-blue whacko leftists who control the NYS Legislature. This coupled with his history of unsavory cut-throat tactics led to Albany’s long-knives being unsheathed. My viewpoint was that it was poetic justice that Cuomo was done in by unsubstantiated sex crimes instead of the substantiated nursing home deaths he was responsible for!

  173. @Bill Jones
    @JohnnyWalker123

    New Mexico's Manslaughter law includes this line:
    “the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.”

    Pointing a gun, specifically designed to kill people, at a person and then pulling the trigger would certainly seem to be " without due caution and circumspection.",

    I don't see how how Baldwin escapes a manslaughter charge (unless he turns into a black transsexual).

    Replies: @Jack D

    Baldwin will say (and he is probably right) that he was entitled to rely on the Assistant Director who shouted out “cold gun” as he handed it to Baldwin. A cold gun is supposed to be the equivalent of a toy guy – if a gun is cold it is either not capable of firing bullets or at the very least has been checked and found to be empty. There is nothing wrong with firing a cold gun at someone – people do this when they play paintball all the time.

    The Assistant Director may say that he pronounced cold gun because he was informed of this by the armorer and was legally entitled to rely on her professional opinion. At some point the buck will stop and someone (probably the armorer) is going to take a legal hit because she said it was a cold gun and it wasn’t and it was her job to be able to tell the difference. She was the one who did her job without due caution and circumspection.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    Wouldn't due caution and circumspection for the last person in the chain involve not pointing it directly at another person and then pulling the trigger, or at least doing so only after personally checking for a live round in the chamber?

    Replies: @Jack D

  174. @anonymous
    @Altai

    China appears to be taking a more conservative approach.


    Type 001 (Liaoning) - The training carrier was commissioned in 2012 and entered service in 2016.

    Type 002 (Shandong) - In service

    Type 003 - Under construction and expected to enter service in 2023

    Type 004 - Nuclear powered carrier under construction
     
    It was reported in 2019 (and newer reports don't contradict it) that the construction of No. 5 and No. 6 (the supercarriers) was canceled. That makes a lot of sense as it is not clear whether carriers have much of a role anymore. If a swarm of drones can attack a carrier and hit the flight deck, then what use is a carrier in a war? If China has three carriers (not counting the training carrier) then it will be able to deploy one carrier at any time (as 1-2 would at anytime be unavailable for maintenance). A single carrier may be useful for some operations but not for a war with the US.

    Replies: @rebel yell, @Altai

    Carriers might be increasingly obsolete as giant expensive targets against peer military powers but if you’re not planning on going to war with another great power with weapons that threaten them, they’re still a powerful way to exert power and deploy air power against weaker countries. (Russia’s carrier might be easy prey for any formation of American surface or submarine vessels but it’s not going to face them and instead gets to act as a valuable airbase in the Syria civil war, for example)

    They’re also useful in ratcheting up tension with another great power that is trying to intimidate you with their own carriers.

    And it’s not even necessarily only a hedge. Does anyone really believe that the US will go to war with the PRC over Taiwan? Or any of the territories they are trying to annex? John McCain is dead so the possibility of a president who’ll do it is pretty close to nil right now.

    And, finally, there is the intangible power of prestige. Most people in the world aren’t thinking “But in terms of the near future, hypersonic weapons make these ships potentially a serious liability”, they’ll be impressed by them and the PRC will gain respect.

  175. @rebel yell
    @Paperback Writer

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like "absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever" would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
    If you need to shoot a live round for a scene, for some reason, either do it somewhere else or make it a rare exception - one bullet is brought on the set for one day by one person.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Jack D, @S

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.

    I would even add ‘blanks’ to that because those have killed as well. Surely, the technology exist now to create realistic enough faux gunfire imagery on screen that it’s not necessary to have anything potentially deadly on movie sets in the form of firearms.

    Maybe this incident with Baldwin will prove to be a catalyst.

    It’s a bit remindful of those enclosed night clubs, some of which in the past have had a love affair with ‘live pyrotechnics’ (some of these pyrotechnics, supposedly, being building safe!?) on stage with their rock bands, basically what amounts to live fireworks inside a building, and as a result have experienced multiple instances of gruesome mass casualty fire events.

    The Station and Lame Horse nightclub fires in 2003 and 2009 respectively come to mind.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_Horse_fire

    The last of these major ‘pyrotechnic’ club fires took place about six years ago in Romania with 64 lives lost at the Collective club. So, maybe, the message has gotten through to stay away from the pyrotechnics (‘building safe’, or, not), and stick with the tried and true light shows.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nightclub_fires

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @S

    The station club had numerous faults: the ceiling material was highly flammable and literally melted onto crowd members below which further incapacitated people already dealing with smoke/heat/flames. A limited number of exits: the primary one thru which the audience entered quickly became blocked due to the fact that most patrons instinctively headed to it and it soon saw a pile up of people desperate to get out. The emergency exit near the stage was temporarily blocked by security who said it was for the band and it's crew members only. The other exits were not known to much of the crowd, many of whom desperately began to smash out windows to escape (which of course fed the fire). Sprinklers were obviously inadequate at stopping the blaze. If memory serves the club was also overcrowded. Safety was such a red flag there that a local TV crew was on hand to do a story about club safety on the night the fire actually happened (the camera man kept his camera rolling as he left the building and an inferno broke out).

  176. @Jack D
    @Hibernian


    some people tend to magnify the Soviet contribution and downplay the US contribution
     
    I would say quite the opposite. Most Americans (used to) know what D-Day was, but how many Americans know about the Battle of Kursk?

    Replies: @Hibernian

    I’m thinking of some extreme left wing Soviet apologists and their strange bedfellows on the extreme right, who can be found on Ron’s site, although they’re not that numerous on Steve’s blog. I’m aware of the people you’re speaking of.

  177. @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer


    Weapons must be tightly managed by an armorer, sometimes credited on films as a “weapons master,” who holds various government-issued permits. Some states, for instance, require an entertainment firearms license in addition to standard gun licenses. Cast members should be trained in gun safety in advance. Guns should never be pointed directly at anyone, especially in rehearsals but even during actual filming, since camera trickery can be used to compensate for the angle. If necessary, plexiglass is used to protect the camera operator and surrounding crew members.

    And no live ammunition, ever.

    “Protocol had to have been broken,” said Daniel Leonard, an associate dean of Chapman University’s film school
     
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/business/prop-guns-baldwin-shooting.html

    Someone is dead and there are rules in place which, if followed, insure that that never happens, so clearly rules were broken. The investigation will determine which rules were broken and by who and whether this rises to the level of criminal responsibility.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    The media, after being relatively quiet on this for a while, seem to be looking for someone other than Mr. Baldwin on whom to blame it. Such people, and I think there legitimately are some, or at least one, are co-responsible with Baldwin. They don’t get him off the hook. Based on the fact that the round went through the decedent and wounded another person, Baldwin almost certainly aimed at or almost at her and pulled the trigger, and it was definitely a live round. Baldwin has had anger management issues in the past. He’s going to face a New Mexico jury, not an LA one. OTOH, he’s going to have the best lawyers money can buy. Kinda like OJ.

  178. @Jack D
    @Bill Jones

    Baldwin will say (and he is probably right) that he was entitled to rely on the Assistant Director who shouted out "cold gun" as he handed it to Baldwin. A cold gun is supposed to be the equivalent of a toy guy - if a gun is cold it is either not capable of firing bullets or at the very least has been checked and found to be empty. There is nothing wrong with firing a cold gun at someone - people do this when they play paintball all the time.

    The Assistant Director may say that he pronounced cold gun because he was informed of this by the armorer and was legally entitled to rely on her professional opinion. At some point the buck will stop and someone (probably the armorer) is going to take a legal hit because she said it was a cold gun and it wasn't and it was her job to be able to tell the difference. She was the one who did her job without due caution and circumspection.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Wouldn’t due caution and circumspection for the last person in the chain involve not pointing it directly at another person and then pulling the trigger, or at least doing so only after personally checking for a live round in the chamber?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hibernian

    I don't know whether it is normal industry practice for the actor to check the weapon personally.

    As for pointing, I gather that the (movie) shot required him to point at the camera (there are precautions that are supposed to be taken in such cases, but at least as an actor (but Baldwin was also a producer) it was not his job to put these precautions in place). Pulling the trigger was (maybe) part of the rehearsal.

    Focusing is turning to the AD:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/24/us/baldwin-shooting-assistant-director.html

    There is no indication that Baldwin was angry or fired the gun in anger. Every indication is that this was a tragic and preventable accident due to (possibly criminal) negligence on the part of one or more people.

  179. @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    Wouldn't due caution and circumspection for the last person in the chain involve not pointing it directly at another person and then pulling the trigger, or at least doing so only after personally checking for a live round in the chamber?

    Replies: @Jack D

    I don’t know whether it is normal industry practice for the actor to check the weapon personally.

    As for pointing, I gather that the (movie) shot required him to point at the camera (there are precautions that are supposed to be taken in such cases, but at least as an actor (but Baldwin was also a producer) it was not his job to put these precautions in place). Pulling the trigger was (maybe) part of the rehearsal.

    Focusing is turning to the AD:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/24/us/baldwin-shooting-assistant-director.html

    There is no indication that Baldwin was angry or fired the gun in anger. Every indication is that this was a tragic and preventable accident due to (possibly criminal) negligence on the part of one or more people.

  180. @Jack D
    There doesn't seem to be any further information about the case against Ryan Mays, the (white) sailor accused of setting the fire.

    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin. For example, he posted a shirtless photo of himself on social media with the caption "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" (followed by an icon of a palm tree). This was rather obviously a refence to the movie Apocalypse Now where the line is uttered by a shirtless Robert Duvall but the Navy somehow took it as evidence that he was a firebug. This is very weak sauce.

    There is also evidence that Mays was unhappy in the Navy - he had washed out of his effort to join the Seals and instead was assigned to doing menial labor on board a ship that was tied up at a dock. (So much for "Join the Navy and See the World"). He was no doubt unhappy as most people would be in this situation but there is a big leap from being unhappy to starting a fire. Being unhappy is not, by itself, a crime. Again, very thin sauce.

    If the Navy has stronger cards in this game, they are holding them very close to their vest.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Buzz Mohawk, @James Forrestal

    The evidence so far against Mays seems to be remarkably thin.

    Hey, it’s not as if the Navy has any history of trying to blame some disaster on a junior enlisted man’s alleged romantic troubles, when the real problem was misconduct at a higher level…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Focus_on_Truitt_and_Hartwig_and_media_reports
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Gunnery_training_and_experiments
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion#Preparation_for_fleet_exercise

    • Agree: El Dato
  181. @Mike Tre
    @JohnnyWalker123

    If a gun loaded with blanks is fired at another person at point blank range it could kill them. Baldwin has been working with prop firearms for what? 40 years? He surely knows this. It also says another person was wounded. How many shots were fired?

    Replies: @JMcG, @Paperback Writer, @James Forrestal

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @James Forrestal

    Well I'm sure that Baldwin now knows that the first thing that happens after you wrongfully kill somebody is that you lie about it.

  182. @Jack D
    @rebel yell

    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.


    Gun that went off in Alec Baldwin's hands and claimed the life of Halyna Hutchins was used for off-set target practice by crew members and live ammo and blanks were stored together, sources say
     
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124917/Gun-went-Alec-Baldwins-hands-killed-Halyna-Hutchins-used-target-practice.html

    Having live ammo on the set was a bad idea but how hard is it for someone to check the cylinder of the revolver? You don't have to be any great weapons expert. It's not subtle whether there are rounds in the chamber or not. There weren't even supposed to be blanks in the gun. It was a rehearsal. The gun was supposed to be completely empty. The armorer should have checked the cylinder and then the AD who handed Baldwin the gun should have double checked and then Baldwin should have done it too. It takes maybe 10 seconds and it literally would have saved someone's life. I don't care if Samuel Colt himself tells me "Cold Gun". Before I point a weapon at another human being and pull the trigger I am going to check that cylinder.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    The clip that you quoted is telling of the bias throughout all the story-telling about this.

    Gun that went off in Alec Baldwin’s hands

    No. The gun didn’t “go off”.

    The asshole pointed it at someone without knowing it was loaded (and that’s the most generous interpretation- He might have known it was loaded.) and pulled the trigger.

    Only one person is responsible for that act.

  183. @No jack London
    @Che Guava

    Could it be that the few who wanted the war made sure that the USN carriers were safely out to sea?

    Replies: @Che Guava

    That has always been the clear fact.

  184. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Hypnotoad666

    "Baldwin was also a producer"

    If you pick up a gun on set you treat it as if it's loaded with live rounds. So even without the producer credit he could and should be charged with negligent homicide. Baldwin fancies himself more than a faded movie star, and has insinuated himself into corporatist networks like the Sackler pharma-mafia, so he'll likely find a friendly prosecutor. Baldwin is smart (for an actor) and talented. He was a great leading man, then blew it. Because he's a dick. I worked with him for a couple weeks (underwear guy) and, after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well.

    Replies: @Jack D, @JohnnyWalker123, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666

    after an initial chain-yanking period, got along with him fairly well

    Plenty of decidedly un-woke people (e.g., Joe Rogan, Adam Carolla), have said they actually like and admire the guy and think he is smart and open-minded. But like so many others, TDS has warped a particular area of his brain. Except for politics he’d probably be an interesting guy to have beer with.

  185. @James Forrestal
    @Mike Tre

    https://twitter.com/stone_toss/status/1451414778719653913

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    Well I’m sure that Baldwin now knows that the first thing that happens after you wrongfully kill somebody is that you lie about it.

  186. @S
    @rebel yell


    Why would anyone ever allow live ammunition on a movie set where prop guns are going to be used? Seems like “absolutely no live ammo on the premises, ever” would be a hard rule in the movie industry.
     
    I would even add 'blanks' to that because those have killed as well. Surely, the technology exist now to create realistic enough faux gunfire imagery on screen that it's not necessary to have anything potentially deadly on movie sets in the form of firearms.

    Maybe this incident with Baldwin will prove to be a catalyst.

    It's a bit remindful of those enclosed night clubs, some of which in the past have had a love affair with 'live pyrotechnics' (some of these pyrotechnics, supposedly, being building safe!?) on stage with their rock bands, basically what amounts to live fireworks inside a building, and as a result have experienced multiple instances of gruesome mass casualty fire events.

    The Station and Lame Horse nightclub fires in 2003 and 2009 respectively come to mind.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_Horse_fire

    The last of these major 'pyrotechnic' club fires took place about six years ago in Romania with 64 lives lost at the Collective club. So, maybe, the message has gotten through to stay away from the pyrotechnics ('building safe', or, not), and stick with the tried and true light shows.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nightclub_fires

    Replies: @Feryl

    The station club had numerous faults: the ceiling material was highly flammable and literally melted onto crowd members below which further incapacitated people already dealing with smoke/heat/flames. A limited number of exits: the primary one thru which the audience entered quickly became blocked due to the fact that most patrons instinctively headed to it and it soon saw a pile up of people desperate to get out. The emergency exit near the stage was temporarily blocked by security who said it was for the band and it’s crew members only. The other exits were not known to much of the crowd, many of whom desperately began to smash out windows to escape (which of course fed the fire). Sprinklers were obviously inadequate at stopping the blaze. If memory serves the club was also overcrowded. Safety was such a red flag there that a local TV crew was on hand to do a story about club safety on the night the fire actually happened (the camera man kept his camera rolling as he left the building and an inferno broke out).

  187. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    This is not "our" navy anymore either. It saddens me but pretending otherwise isn't healthy.

    At some point, we need to acknowledge that the world has changed. The country that you grew up in, the country that generally existed fron the mid-1600s to around 1990 is dead.

    It's gone. You see it everyday. The people running this society hate you. That won't change. You won't convince them to accept you and your culture through logic.

    The real logic is that they're winning. They're not going to take their foot off the pedal. Why should they?

    Either join the fight as whites or admit that you're a coward. Stop pretending that there's a middle ground. Colorblind civic nationalism is cowardice. Just admit it.

    Replies: @Barnard, @matzahballsgonewrong

    “Colorblind civic nationalism is cowardice.”

    As long as we stick to the race BS, we are doomed as a human species. Until we stop this calptrap forced on by our real enemy, the communist psycopaths of the world, we are doomed.

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