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The Western world is lucky that Sweden has resisted going down the same policy path as most other countries, allowing us to see a different set of policies in action. From Nature, an interview with a top Swedish health official:

21 APRIL 2020
‘Closing borders is ridiculous’: the epidemiologist behind Sweden’s controversial coronavirus strategy
Anders Tegnell talks to Nature about the nation’s ‘trust-based’ approach to tackling the pandemic.
Marta Paterlini

As much of Europe imposed severe restrictions on public life last month to stem the spread of the coronavirus, one country stood out.

Sweden didn’t go into lockdown or impose strict social-distancing policies. Instead, it rolled out voluntary, ‘trust-based’ measures: it advised older people to avoid social contact and recommended that people work from home, wash their hands regularly and avoid non-essential travel. But borders and schools for under-16s remain open — as do many businesses, including restaurants and bars.

The approach has sharp critics. Among them are 22 high-profile scientists who last week wrote in the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter that the public-health authorities had failed, and urged politicians to step in with stricter measures. They point to the high number of coronavirus deaths in elder-care homes and Sweden’s overall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland, which have adopted lockdowns.

The strategy’s architect is Anders Tegnell, an epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, an independent body whose expert recommendations the government follows. Tegnell spoke to Nature about the approach.

Q. Can you explain Sweden’s approach to controlling the coronavirus?

A. I think it has been overstated how unique the approach is. As in many other countries, we aim to flatten the curve, slowing down the spread as much as possible — otherwise the health-care system and society are at risk of collapse.

This is not a disease that can be stopped or eradicated, at least until a working vaccine is produced. We have to find long-term solutions that keeps the distribution of infections at a decent level. What every country is trying to do is to keep people apart, using the measures we have and the traditions we have to implement those measures. And that’s why we ended up doing slightly different things.

The Swedish laws on communicable diseases are mostly based on voluntary measures — on individual responsibility. It clearly states that the citizen has the responsibility not to spread a disease. This is the core we started from, because there is not much legal possibility to close down cities in Sweden using the present laws. Quarantine can be contemplated for people or small areas, such as a school or a hotel. But [legally] we cannot lock down a geographical area.

Q. What evidence was this approach based on?
A. It is difficult to talk about the scientific basis of a strategy with these types of disease, because we do not know much about it and we are learning as we are doing, day by day. Closedown, lockdown, closing borders — nothing has a historical scientific basis, in my view. We have looked at a number of European Union countries to see whether they have published any analysis of the effects of these measures before they were started and we saw almost none.

Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous, because COVID-19 is in every European country now. We have more concerns about movements inside Sweden.

As a society, we are more into nudging: continuously reminding people to use measures, improving measures where we see day by day the that they need to be adjusted. We do not need to close down everything completely because it would be counterproductive.

… The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. This accounts for Sweden’s higher death rate, compared with our neighbours. Investigations are ongoing, because we must understand which recommendations have not been followed, and why.

I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.

Q. The approach has been criticized for being too relaxed. How do you respond to these criticisms? Do you think it risks people’s lives more than necessary?

A. I do not believe there is that risk. The public-health agency has released detailed modelling on a region-by-region basis that comes to much less pessimistic conclusions than other researchers in terms of hospitalizations and deaths per thousand infections. There has been an increase, but it is not traumatic so far. Of course, we are going into a phase in the epidemic where we will see a lot more cases in the next few weeks — with more people in intensive-care units — but that is just like any other country. Nowhere in Europe has been able to slow down the spread considerably.

About schools, I am confident they are going to stay open on the national level. We are in the middle of the epidemic and, in my view, the science shows that closing schools at this stage does not make sense. You have to shut down schools fairly early in the epidemic to get an effect. In Stockholm, which has the majority of Sweden’s cases, we are now close to the top of the curve, so closing schools is meaningless at this stage. Moreover, it is instrumental for psychiatric and physical health that the younger generation stays active.

Q. Researchers have criticized the agency for not fully acknowledging the role of asymptomatic carriers. Do you think asymptomatic carriers are a problem?
A. There is a possibility that asymptomatics might be contagious, and some recent studies indicate that. But the amount of spread is probably fairly small compared to people who show symptoms. In the normal distribution of a bell curve asymptomatics sit at the margin, whereas most of the curve is occupied by symptomatics, the ones that we really need to stop.

Q. Do you think the approach has been successful?
A. It is very difficult to know; it is too early, really. Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’ [when a high proportion of the population is immune to an infection, largely limiting spread people who are not immune] in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.

There are enough signals to show that we can think about herd immunity, about recurrence. Very few cases of re-infection have been reported globally so far. How long the herd immunity will last, we do not know, but there is definitely an immune response.

Q. Are you satisfied with the strategy?
A. Yes! We know that COVID-19 is extremely dangerous for very old people, which is of course bad. But looking at pandemics, there are much worse scenarios than this one. Most problems that we have right now are not because of the disease, but because of the measures that in some environments have not been applied properly: the deaths among older people is a huge problem and we are fighting hard.

Moreover, we have data showing that the flu epidemic and the winter norovirus dropped consistently this year, meaning that our social distancing and hand washing is working. And with the help of Google, we have seen that the movements of Swedes have fallen dramatically. Our voluntary strategy has had a real effect.

A huge question is how much economic carnage has Sweden endured due to voluntary actions compared to neighbors like Denmark and Norway with state policies? Or do government policies not matter that much compared to consumer and business choices? I haven’t found the answer yet.

I know how to look up movie theater box office by country, which is collected like sports statistics. There, I don’t see much difference between open Sweden versus shut Denmark and Norway.

Swedes voluntarily dropped box office by about 98% by the second half of March. But I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

 
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  1. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Next time I say we…

    Even the infected get lucky sometimes.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Nice job, and nice music. Thanks.
  2. … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. This accounts for Sweden’s higher death rate,

    The elderly already are responsible for huge medical and end-of-life costs. So in shutting down our countries and then bailing everyone out with trillions in deficit spending what we really may be doing is running up huge deficits on behalf of the right to keep running up deficits. Let’s spend trillions to make sure we have the right to keep spending hundreds of billions on elderly people at the end of their lives.

    That’s the curmudgeons way to see the situation, anyway.

    I’m really interested to know more about the alleged long-term effects suffered by some people who survive the disease. How serious and common are they?

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
    You can prise health-care dollars out of my cold dead hands after we deport the untold millions of illegal aliens ...
    , @Anon
    @ out the alleged long-term effects suffered by some people who survive the disease. How serious and common are they?

    Perhaps this can be enlightening:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-blood/alarmed-as-covid-patients-blood-thickened-new-york-doctors-try-new-treatments-idUSKCN22421Z

    It is a systemic problem. One nasty little bug. Look up DIC disseminated intravascular coagulation.
  3. A huge question is how much economic carnage has Sweden endured due to voluntary actions compared to neighbors like Denmark and Norway with state policies?

    That’s not the biggest question. The huge question is how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of “the boss”?

    “Shakin’ the tree, shakin’ the tree, boss!”

    • Agree: moshe
    • Replies: @Jon
    It's the horseshoe theory of politics - Sweden is so far left that they have come around to the right-wing position.
    , @Hail

    how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of “the boss”?
     
    Add this to the list of ways the Corona Crisis has cross-cut preexisting political divisions and created a major new dividing line, at least for the time being.
  4. Seems like a sensible approach, but this is not the American way of doing things!

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Neuday
    Sweden must not have Boomers.
  5. @Anonymous
    Next time I say we...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82jXfi5fW8c

    Even the infected get lucky sometimes.

    Nice job, and nice music. Thanks.

  6. Frigging killjoys.

    The whole planet’s going apeshit; and they’re trying to wreck the party?

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  7. Sweden got off very lightly in WW2, while all out of Norway, Finland, and Denmark suffered heavy blows. All three were effectively buffer states to Sweden. This, despite the fact that Finland was Axis while Norway was Allied. Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.

    This could have something to do with it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.
     
    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.
    , @TomSchmidt
    Norway wasn't allied. It was invaded by Britain, a brainchild of Churchill. the Nazis were just better when they didn't have to rely on sea transport, and defeated the Norwegians and Brits.
  8. Steve – do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.

    • Replies: @Mr Mox

    Steve – do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.
     
    "He lowered his head to his chest and listened to the snow as his son rode away. He felt the sticks of wood next to him again. One by one, the fire would eat them. And step by step, death would cover him. When the last stick was gone, the cold would come. First, his feet would freeze. Then, his hands. The cold would travel slowly from the outside to the inside of him, and he would rest. It was easy…all men must die."
    , @Hail
    In line with Mr Mox's reply (Jack London, 1910s?), and Polynikes' reply (Blade Runner, 1980s), here is another:

    "Every man dies. Not every man really lives."

    -- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, Braveheart, 1990s
     

    This is a line that occurred to me, recently, in contemplating the (ongoing) CoronaPanic. Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time. But as Hank Williams Sr. once sang, "[We'll] never get out of this world alive." The point is to make something of the time we have.

    This is not a novel insight, and is pretty much a cliche, but it's worth saying directly in these times.

    The great religious thinkers have all dealt with this, and indeed maybe that is, in simple terms, the purpose of religion. More recently it has been the purpose of philosophy. In centuries past, our ancestors found great freedom in religion because it liberated us from fear of death.

  9. Post Script: Mr. Tegnell died shortly after this interview when his Afghani neighbour threw a grenade at his Somali neighbour. He had no children.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    There is no I in Afghan.



    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0219/7798/9220/products/8118767b-d7c5-4b0a-ba14-a535a632acb7_800x.jpg?v=1571742430
  10. ” . . . [O]verall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland . . .”.

    Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don’t offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability? Am I missing something?

    • Replies: @Jon Claerbout
    At worldometers.info/coronavirus/ the third from the last column is sortable by clicking on its top. American media don't report this because they are not technologically literate/inclined
    , @epebble
    Swedish fatality: 192 per Million
    Switzerland 174
    Ireland 156
    USA 144
    Portugal 77
    Denmark 66
    Germany 63
    Austria 57
    Canada 52
    Slovenia 38
    Norway 34
    Estonia 33
    Iceland 29
    Turkey 28
    Romania 27
    Finland 27
    Hungary 23
    Greece 12
    Poland 11
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Slovakia 3

    Sweden is not doing well; They are doing less worse than some countries in Europe/Western world.
    , @danand

    "Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don’t offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability?"
     
    Jack, this may partially answer your question, though not exactly what you were looking for. Just a bit of back of the envelope:

    1937 Swedish Covid-19 fatalities/ 10,230,000 Sweden's population = ~.0189% of population Covid-19 dead

    45,950 USA fatalities/328,200,000 USA's population = ~.014% of USA population Covid-19 dead

    So Sweden is not fairing much worse than the US in percent of its population lost to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. "Just because", or any other reason one can think of for doing it, here are the numbers if we toss our most deadly big city out the USA:

    14887 NYC fatalities/8,399,000 NYC's population = ~.177% of NYC population Covid-19 dead

    328,200,000 Total USA population - 8,399,00 New York City population = 319,801,000 USA population less that of NYC

    31,063 (45950-14887) US fatalities less those in NYC/319,801,000 USA population less NYC = ~.0097% US minus NYC population Covid-19 dead

    With New York City excluded from the US, Swedes so far have died at roughly 2X the rate Americans have. Not too terrible, and not so great.

    Here is some other somewhat relevant data on Sweden:

    Last year 505 Swedes succumbed to an influenza virus:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3uv


    The people of the USA look to be in much worse heath than Swedes:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTosvh


    Swedes are living longer than they used to, but may die out: as they don't have replacement numbers of children:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3vY


    Maybe Sweden's flu season will be ending in a couple of week or three. But Covid-19 got a late start?

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3uA


    Swedes seem to die a way too high a rate for "Diseases of the Nervous System":

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTmTff


    And lastly, the Swedish Stock Market has pretty much mirrored the performance of the US's during the Covid Crisis:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTrhZH
    , @Elli
    NYT case map and count gives per capita.
  11. @Wilkey

    … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. This accounts for Sweden’s higher death rate,
     
    The elderly already are responsible for huge medical and end-of-life costs. So in shutting down our countries and then bailing everyone out with trillions in deficit spending what we really may be doing is running up huge deficits on behalf of the right to keep running up deficits. Let’s spend trillions to make sure we have the right to keep spending hundreds of billions on elderly people at the end of their lives.

    That’s the curmudgeons way to see the situation, anyway.

    I’m really interested to know more about the alleged long-term effects suffered by some people who survive the disease. How serious and common are they?

    You can prise health-care dollars out of my cold dead hands after we deport the untold millions of illegal aliens …

  12. I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.

    The last thing that my Swedish/Prussian grandmother told me was that she wanted to die — she’d lived long enough. My father said something similar. It sounds weird to Americans; there’s a practicality in many older cultures that we simply don’t grok. And, of course, so many of us haven’t had opportunity to spend much time with our older family members.

    It’s not fatalism, it’s realism.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Precisely.

    Just before Christmas a woman I know told me about the decision she and her siblings made to cease treatments for her Italian mother (late 80s).

    “She’d lived her life. What was hooked up to machines was a shell.”

    The mother had distributed her estate years earlier for tax reasons and was an NHS patient, so no financial matters were in play.

    , @John Derbyshire
    Sleep after Toil, Port after stormy Seas,
    Ease after War, Death after Life, does greatly please.
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/edmund_spenser_389853
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    C.G. Jung had similar opinion, although he definitely framed it in a more spiritual or "metaphysical" way..

    Lao-Tzu once said, “All are clear and I alone am clouded.” He is expressing what is experienced in advanced older age. He is the example of a man with superior insight who has seen and experienced worth and worthlessness, and who at the end of his life desires to return into his own being, into the eternal unknowable meaning. This is true of the great philosopher and the old peasant. It is old age and thus a limitation and humans want to return to their place of divine, their source, and eventually this becomes apparent when they experience limitation. Death becomes a source of knowing as it is the natural destined direction whether we want it to be or not.
     
    , @William Badwhite
    Just anecdotal evidence but I've found the more religious someone is, the less afraid of death. My wife's great aunt (101 years old) is in great shape mentally, a tad frail but otherwise good physically. She said at Christmas that she's not at all afraid of dying. FWIW, she's very devout.
  13. “When it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time”

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today’s New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once… except for de white wimminz, of course.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    “When it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time”

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today’s New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once… except for de white wimminz, of course.
     
    Good point.

    Mass immigration destroys the inter-generational bonds in the nation. Since there is no actual nation anymore, it's pretty much "i'll get mine". People--with kids--care about their kids. But the nation's ... eh, whatever. Simple common sense, once you no longer live in a nation, but a marketplace.

    I'd gladly hop onto the ice floe, in exchange for hard end to immigration--illegals deported, no more immigration, no more "new Americans", only jus sanguinis, children of Americans. Wouldn't get us anywhere near back to the sanity of say 1960. But at least i'd die knowing that my children and their children and all their descendants were no longer under invasion, had a place to live and could with work recover and rebuild a nation. There would at least be ... hope.

    With the current regime continuing there is no hope--America is destined to get shittier and shittier until it's a completely shithole and no one else wants to come.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...

    "Sweden didn’t go into lockdown or impose strict social-distancing policies. Instead, it rolled out voluntary, ‘trust-based’ measures"
     
    Those "‘trust-based’ measures" won't work so well among populations hailing from South of the Hajnal Line. Maybe this is a method some wily Swede policy maker has devised for clearing out those swarthy pest-holes infesting Malmo and other parts of this once serene and happy country. Somalis and their ilk will ignore decent sensible behavior, infect one another, and be significantly reduced in number. meanwhile, reasonable Swede autochthones will wear masks, avoid congregating in large crowds (particularly those containing hyper-melinated elements), and engage in other behaviors conducive their health and that of their race.
  14. @Achmed E. Newman

    A huge question is how much economic carnage has Sweden endured due to voluntary actions compared to neighbors like Denmark and Norway with state policies?
     
    That's not the biggest question. The huge question is how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of "the boss"?

    "Shakin' the tree, shakin' the tree, boss!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGyAwHwC9wk

    It’s the horseshoe theory of politics – Sweden is so far left that they have come around to the right-wing position.

  15. Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’ [when a high proportion of the population is immune to an infection, largely limiting spread people who are not immune] in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.

    That’s the nub of the matter, right there.

    We are spending trillions in lost wealth for a meaningless delay in the inevitable.

    • Replies: @miss marple
    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden's calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China's. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?
    , @leterip
    I agree. The Swedish are, as far as I can tell, the only country, that has a reasonable exit strategy. Although, the data is still a bit sparse, they appear well on their way to herd immunity. It appears that in a few months time, they will be done with CV and their country will be perhaps the only one completely open. With much less damage to their economy and social capital. Great foresight and lots of guts. You got to hand it to them.
    , @Tono Bungay
    If they come up with an effective treatment for this virus, then the delay will not have been "meaningless."
  16. “ … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. ”

    So how vibrant are Swedish nursing home workers?

    • Replies: @Mark G.

    “ … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. ”

    So how vibrant are Swedish nursing home workers?

     

    Johan Giesecke, the man who hired Tegnell, said in an interview that Sweden has lots of immigrants working in nursing homes and that is one of the causes of the high death rates there. The immigrants have poor Swedish language skills and are less intelligent, though he didn't put it so bluntly, and therefore have more trouble following directions on what they need to do to stop the spread of the disease and take care of the patients.

    He also said Sweden has a small number of nursing homes with a lot of people in each one while nearby Norway has a lot of nursing homes with a small number in each one. It's more difficult to contain the disease if you have a lot of old people herded together. He said he wishes they had focused more on the nursing homes early on.
  17. Anonymous[154] • Disclaimer says:

    The Great Chloroquine War is heating up…

    The Empire is so lame so weak. It’s disgusting fake news prostitutes, fedgov stooges, Big Pharma, PC status seeking left wing lunatics etc.

    The Rebels are awesome. Heroic people like md’s Didier Raoult & Stephen Smith and so many other docs now. They’re getting audited by IRS! Dirty dastardly tricks …

    It’s been Empire Strikes Back this week but it is a rotten empire just flailing in a flurry of stupid lies.

    HCQ+ZPAC+ZINC hit the Witch Corona hard and early first sign of symptoms. Then finish the bitch with ivermectin or equivalent yes it’s avail at any feed store…

    The frontline hospital staff in USA has been quietly taking this stuff but they don’t go public because there are gangster payback consequences if they do speak out…

    • Replies: @Anon
    Ivermectin’s interesting. Super cheap (yeah, used for cows), very stable and very harmless on humans. But it has been used also to combat HIV, with unknown (to me) results. And conspiracy theorists theorize Covid19 is lab-made with HIV particles. So maybe that explains why it works.

    My doctor told me a small human trial has already happened, with good results, after the Australian lab trials. Another (brother of close friend) said results were very good, within two days. All this is empirical knowledge, of course.

    Best to wait, then, until you need intubation and really expensive intravenous intervention.
    , @amanuensis
    There's definitely a push to discredit this 3-part therapy. Fauci, Birx, Gates, Eli Lilly, WHO, CDC, et al have a lot of money on the line and el cheapo remedies are NOT part of their plan. I'm sure doctors have gotten the message that their careers are on the line.
    , @epebble
    If these drugs work, sooner or later there will be reports of success from other countries. These are cheap and readily available compounds; there are thousands of infections world over. Any doctor worth a dime will give these a try just to see if it helps since there is no prescribed course of treatment. If there is meaningful success, the news will come out. Has there been any news from China, Iran, Brazil, Turkey or Mexico?
  18. Anon[335] • Disclaimer says:

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.

    In Japan, legend has it that they dumped their oldsters at Ubasuteyama, Mt. Ubasute:

    Ubasute (姥捨て, “abandoning an old woman”, also called obasute and sometimes oyasute 親捨て “abandoning a parent”) is the mythical practice of senicide in Japan, whereby an infirm or elderly relative was carried to a mountain, or some other remote, desolate place, and left there to die. According to the Kodansha Illustrated Encyclopedia of Japan, ubasute “is the subject of legend, but … does not seem ever to have been a common custom”.

    Ubasute has left its mark on Japanese folklore, where it forms the basis of many legends, poems, and koans. In one Buddhist allegory, a son carries his mother up a mountain on his back. During the journey, she stretches out her arms, catching the twigs and scattering them in their wake, so that her son will be able to find the way home.

    A poem commemorates the story:

    In the depths of the mountains,
    Whom was it for the aged mother snapped
    One twig after another?
    Heedless of herself
    She did so
    For the sake of her son

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute

    Here it discusses Sweden:

    Ättestupa (Swedish for ‘kin/clan precipice’) is a name given to a number of precipices in Sweden.

    The name supposedly denotes sites where ritual senicide took place during Nordic prehistoric times, whereby elderly people threw themselves, or were thrown, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household.

    The term ättestupa came into use in Sweden in the seventeenth century, inspired by the Old Icelandic saga Gautreks saga, which is partly set in the Swedish region of Götaland. Gautreks saga became known in Sweden in 1664, when an edition and Swedish translation was published by Olaus Verelius. This seems to have inspired Swedish antiquarians from the seventeenth century through into the nineteenth to label various cliffs with the name ättestupa. The Swedish linguist Adolf Noreen started questioning the myth at the end of the nineteenth century, and it is now generally accepted among researchers that the practice of suicide precipices never existed. Place-names which Gautreks saga inspired, however, continue to exist in the Swedish landscape.

    The term ättestupa has been used often in modern times, in political contexts, to underline how bad an insufficiently funded social security program can be, especially for retirees.[citation needed] In the 1960s, the Swedish comedy radio program Mosebacke Monarki satirically introduced ättestupa, abbreviated ÄTP, as an alternative to ATP, a state-provided pension.

    The 2019 horror film Midsommar by Ari Aster uses the term to describe a fictional tradition in which the elderly cast themselves off a high cliff in ritual suicide at the age of 72.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa

    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth. How on earth do these crazy stories get started? Mankind especially in olden days were noble savages, who knew no cruelty, had no word for war, and used every part of the buffalo.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Oh, no no no no no! Didn't you see James Cameron's vegan movie? Our ancestors lived on plants, not buffalo!
    , @Peter Frost
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth.

    In the case of the Eskimo (who prefer the term "Inuit"), we have eyewitness accounts of elder suicide. The following account is from Knud Rasmussen, a Danish explorer and anthropologist, who had come to visit a sick Inuit woman:

    I straightened myself up [inside the hut] and went across at once to the spot where the sick woman used to lie. On coming nearer, I nearly cried out aloud: I found myself looking into a face that was perfectly blue, with a pair of great eyes projecting right out from the head, and the mouth wide open. I stood there a little to pull myself together, and now perceived a line fastened round the old woman's neck and from there to the roof of the hut. When I was able to speak once more, I asked those in the house what this meant. It was a long time before anyone answered. At last the son-in-law spoke up, and said: 'She felt that she was old, and having begun to spit up blood, she wished to die quickly, and I agreed. I only made the line fast to the roof, the rest she did herself.'
     
    Rasmussen, K. (1929). Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos, Vol. 7 (1) of Report of the Fifth Thule Expedition 1921-24, Copenhagen, Gyldendalske Boghandel.

    It was a common practice, but the decision was always left up to the elder. There were also cases of cannibalism during times of starvation, when dying grandparents would request that their flesh be eaten by their children and grandchildren after death.
  19. I quick search shows that most movie theaters are closed in Sweden because of the lack of demand and because there are no new movies to show. So I am afraid this is not a good metric to show Sweden’s economic activity. I am more interested in how Volvo is doing compared to say Ford.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    As I said awhile back in a Taki's Magazine column:

    In effect, a veto over successfully reopening movie theaters is held by governments, theater owners, movie studios, and audiences. Without all four on board, there wouldn’t be much point.

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-good-news-and-bad-news-from-the-west-coast/

    Norway now appears to let movie theaters be open, but revenue remains miniscule.

  20. For any Pennsylvania protest in the near future: Hey hey, ho ho, Corporal Klinger gotto go !

  21. @Hypnotoad666

    Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’ [when a high proportion of the population is immune to an infection, largely limiting spread people who are not immune] in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.
     
    That's the nub of the matter, right there.

    We are spending trillions in lost wealth for a meaningless delay in the inevitable.

    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden’s calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China’s. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden’s calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China’s. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?
     
    We looked at the steps taken by the same country and ruling party that gave the World the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, and said to ourselves: "Well, they must know what they're doing!".
    , @guest007
    If 3000 to 5000 Americans were dying each day due to Covid-19, do you realy think that politicians would not panic.

    Adopting the Swedish way means more deaths per day which means and many more outbreaks in nursing homes. As it looks now, nursing homes and speciality nursing centers will probably be sued out of business. Image how many businesses will be sued out of business when they reopen while failing to protect workers and customers.

    The Trump Administration is trying to give business liability protection from Covi19 so that the biggest A-hole bosses will not be held responsible for being short sighted, bullies, and foolish.
  22. Hail says: • Website

    Sweden stands today as the Hero of the West. Vindicated and an example to follow. The vindication is already here, as I wrote in this comprehensive review of the evidence now available in the several-month-long pro-CoronaPanic vs. anti-CoronaPanic debate:

    Against the Corona Panic, Pt. III: “Just the Flu” Vindicated by the Data; Or, Why to End the Shutdowns Now

    “We, the Swedish government, decided early in January that the measures we should take against the pandemic should be evidence-based. When you start looking around for the measures being taken now by different countries, you find that very few of them have any shred of evidence basis…”

    — Dr. Johan Giesecke, world-renowned epidemiologist, adviser to the Swedish government, and the man who hired Anders Tegnell to direct the Swedish coronavirus pandemic strategy, speaking April 17

    (a) Evidence-based approach, vs.
    (b) Wild, gut-feeling, ultra-worst-case, media-led, hysterical approach, in which any mention of cost-benefit-analysis is blasphemy.

    Forget the CoronaPanic; (b) is really never a good idea in any situation. Is it? I mean, not for rational, independent nations that aren’t subject to apocalyptic cult control. The potential for the kinds of self-inflicted disasters, as this has been, is always high with (b).

    Professor Ansgar Lohse, Director at the Hamburg University Hospital:

    “In my opinion, the Swedish measures are the most rational in the world. Of course, the question arises whether this can be kept up psychologically. Initially, the Swedes have to reckon with significantly more deaths, but in the medium to long term these will then be significantly reduced. The bill will be paid in a year – if the Swedes can hold out. Unfortunately, the fear of the virus often forces politicians to take actions that are not necessarily reasonable. Politics is driven also by the images in the media.”

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/against-the-corona-panic-pt-iii-just-the-flu-vindicated-by-the-data-or-why-to-end-the-shutdowns-now/#sweden

    • Thanks: vhrm
    • Replies: @Neuday

    (b) Wild, gut-feeling, ultra-worst-case, media-led, hysterical approach, in which any mention of cost-benefit-analysis is blasphemy.
     
    Welcome to the Gynocracy.
  23. @Black-hole creator
    I quick search shows that most movie theaters are closed in Sweden because of the lack of demand and because there are no new movies to show. So I am afraid this is not a good metric to show Sweden's economic activity. I am more interested in how Volvo is doing compared to say Ford.

    As I said awhile back in a Taki’s Magazine column:

    In effect, a veto over successfully reopening movie theaters is held by governments, theater owners, movie studios, and audiences. Without all four on board, there wouldn’t be much point.

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-good-news-and-bad-news-from-the-west-coast/

    Norway now appears to let movie theaters be open, but revenue remains miniscule.

  24. @Wilkey

    … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. This accounts for Sweden’s higher death rate,
     
    The elderly already are responsible for huge medical and end-of-life costs. So in shutting down our countries and then bailing everyone out with trillions in deficit spending what we really may be doing is running up huge deficits on behalf of the right to keep running up deficits. Let’s spend trillions to make sure we have the right to keep spending hundreds of billions on elderly people at the end of their lives.

    That’s the curmudgeons way to see the situation, anyway.

    I’m really interested to know more about the alleged long-term effects suffered by some people who survive the disease. How serious and common are they?

    @ out the alleged long-term effects suffered by some people who survive the disease. How serious and common are they?

    Perhaps this can be enlightening:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-blood/alarmed-as-covid-patients-blood-thickened-new-york-doctors-try-new-treatments-idUSKCN22421Z

    It is a systemic problem. One nasty little bug. Look up DIC disseminated intravascular coagulation.

  25. Hail says: • Website

    From the UK Spectator, April 20 (” The Swedish experiment looks like it’s paying off,” by Fredrik Erixon):

    The number of daily deaths [in Sweden] has remained pretty stable at about 75 for a while but is now on a declining path.

    We now have about 530 patients in intensive care in the country: our hospital capacity is twice as high at 1,100 […]

    The pro-Panic side predicted 90,000 deaths in Sweden by summer, pushing 1% of total population (which was “one person’s guesstimate,” in the words of anti-CoronaPanic expert Knut Wittkowski).

    Not only has nothing like that happened, not only is Sweden doing better than France, the UK, and others, not only are new deaths now in clear decline, but even the strain on hospitals during this, the peak period, is basically mild for a peak-flu event. The phantom “swamped hospitals” so many were so convinced by, are absent, at least in No-Lockdown Sweden’s case.

    Also this, from the Spectator, A glimpse into the psychology of those who find themselves on the pro-CoronaPanic side (by choice or by circumstance):

    A journalist from French television that I talked to on Sunday admitted, somewhat sheepishly, that ‘it’s almost as if we want Sweden to fail because then we would know it is you [Swedes] and not us [French] that there is something wrong with’.

  26. Investigations are ongoing, because we must understand which recommendations have not been followed

    One gets the feeling he won’t even entertain the notion that the recommendations may be less than perfect. Oddly reminiscent of communist policy.

  27. @JackOH
    " . . . [O]verall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland . . .".

    Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don't offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability? Am I missing something?

    At worldometers.info/coronavirus/ the third from the last column is sortable by clicking on its top. American media don’t report this because they are not technologically literate/inclined

    • Thanks: JackOH
  28. @JackOH
    " . . . [O]verall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland . . .".

    Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don't offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability? Am I missing something?

    Swedish fatality: 192 per Million
    Switzerland 174
    Ireland 156
    USA 144
    Portugal 77
    Denmark 66
    Germany 63
    Austria 57
    Canada 52
    Slovenia 38
    Norway 34
    Estonia 33
    Iceland 29
    Turkey 28
    Romania 27
    Finland 27
    Hungary 23
    Greece 12
    Poland 11
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Slovakia 3

    Sweden is not doing well; They are doing less worse than some countries in Europe/Western world.

    • Replies: @Seneca44
    Interesting table which could lead to the below, admittedly crude, calculation of dollars spent per excess death in the US.

    Swedes 192/million - US 144/million = 48 per million excess deaths in Sweden

    Apply extra death rate to US population: 48 deaths per million X 330 million=15840 deaths potentially avoided in US with measures taken.

    NPR this AM quotes federal expenditures on COVID 19 at $2.7 trillion so far. This is government spending only and certainly underestimates total cost of this outbreak.

    $2.7 trillion(2.7 X 10 12th power) divided by 15840 (1.584 x 10 4th power) excess deaths gives
    $1.7045 X 10 8th power = $170 million per excess death prevented.

    New York data on worldometer.info breaks down deaths by age range; 72.3% of deaths over 65 and 47.7% over 75.

    I am certainly willing to have anyone check these crude figures and the US is certainly not Nordic in culture or behavior, so a voluntary isolation program would almost certainly not work as well. In any case, $170 million per life for an overwhelmingly older cohort might be considered excessive by any numerate sentient being.
    , @JackOH
    Thanks, epebble.

    FWIW- statistics from Ohio (USA); sources: U. S. Census pop. est., and Ohio's COVID-19 info site.

    Pop: 11,689,000

    COVID-19 fatalities: 610 (as of 4/22)

    Fatality rate: 52/million.

    I've heard our local TV news people using obscurantist language to describe a nearby county having a population of 228,000 with COVID-19 deaths exceeding that of Cuyahoga County (Cleveland, Ohio) with a population of 1, 235,000. Something like: "XYZ County has more deaths than Cuyahoga County . . . [meaningful pause and arched eyebrow while going for the supposed kill shot] . . . even though Cuyahoga County has a greater population than XYZ County." Neither county's population is actually mentioned if memory's okay, nor fatality rate. Total cases for both counties are.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    Sweden is not doing well

     

    LOL.

    "192 per Million"

    192 ÷ 1,000,000 = 0.000192

    They will manage.
  29. Hail says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    A huge question is how much economic carnage has Sweden endured due to voluntary actions compared to neighbors like Denmark and Norway with state policies?
     
    That's not the biggest question. The huge question is how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of "the boss"?

    "Shakin' the tree, shakin' the tree, boss!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGyAwHwC9wk

    how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of “the boss”?

    Add this to the list of ways the Corona Crisis has cross-cut preexisting political divisions and created a major new dividing line, at least for the time being.

    • Replies: @moshe
    Yeah, and I like it.

    I wish the whole thing would shatter to pieces and all of these binary or trinary political teams would fall apart completely.

    I see no reason whatsoever why a man can't be a serious Christian who opposes gun ownership, supports nordic socialist policies, opposes the death penalty, would vote for an atheist president, smokes weed and thinks that porn should be illegal.

    Why would such a fellow be considered either a madman, a genius or an eccentric instead of just...an American. A free man in a free land coming to his own conclusions - each of which is held by tens of millions of other Americans.

    I'd far rather speak to HIM about his reasoning than to someone whose opinions just so happen to align nearly perfectly with the full grab bag of whatever happens to be The (Republican/Democrat/Libertarian/Green) Party's Positions that particular decade.

  30. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    The Great Chloroquine War is heating up...

    The Empire is so lame so weak. It's disgusting fake news prostitutes, fedgov stooges, Big Pharma, PC status seeking left wing lunatics etc.

    The Rebels are awesome. Heroic people like md's Didier Raoult & Stephen Smith and so many other docs now. They're getting audited by IRS! Dirty dastardly tricks ...

    It's been Empire Strikes Back this week but it is a rotten empire just flailing in a flurry of stupid lies.

    HCQ+ZPAC+ZINC hit the Witch Corona hard and early first sign of symptoms. Then finish the bitch with ivermectin or equivalent yes it's avail at any feed store...

    The frontline hospital staff in USA has been quietly taking this stuff but they don't go public because there are gangster payback consequences if they do speak out...

    Ivermectin’s interesting. Super cheap (yeah, used for cows), very stable and very harmless on humans. But it has been used also to combat HIV, with unknown (to me) results. And conspiracy theorists theorize Covid19 is lab-made with HIV particles. So maybe that explains why it works.

    My doctor told me a small human trial has already happened, with good results, after the Australian lab trials. Another (brother of close friend) said results were very good, within two days. All this is empirical knowledge, of course.

    Best to wait, then, until you need intubation and really expensive intravenous intervention.

  31. In other news of anti-hysteria, Wisconsin is showing no spike in cases after holding regularly scheduled elections two weeks ago. The majority of people voted absentee, but still plenty of people went to the polls. Proper precautions were taken maybe proving at the very least states should be able to open back up with some precautions in place?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    This is already out of date.

    The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.
    , @varsicule
    The reason you aren't hearing anything about it is because the left's candidate for supreme court won, which I don't think was expected.
  32. AP says:

    Off topic but the Norwegian show Beforeigners would be your type of show to review. It’s about “migrants” from Norway’s past coming into the future through s time hole, about 13,000 a year coming in from the either the 19th century, 11th century, or 10,000 years ago and integrating into modern society:

    https://variety.com/2019/film/festivals/beforeigners-anne-bjornstad-hbo-first-norwegian-original-series-1203310317/

    There are even “trans” people from the modern world who feel they were born in the wrong time period and try to transition.

    Apparently the show consulted with academic linguists to make the old Norse speakers authentic. Check out the specialist in Old Norse from the University of Oslo (on the left):

    https://sciencenorway.no/history-language-media/creating-languages-of-the-past-for-hbos-beforeigners/1560670

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Apparently the show consulted with academic linguists to make the old Norse speakers authentic
     
    Or they could just have hired Icelanders and Faroese.
  33. Is the Swedish strategy helped by the fact that more than half of Swedes live alone?

    • Agree: utu
  34. @BenKenobi

    Post Script: Mr. Tegnell died shortly after this interview when his Afghani neighbour threw a grenade at his Somali neighbour. He had no children.
     

    There is no I in Afghan.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    hahaa, love that! But is it, " I have Borzoi, or Borzois? " (there is no plural, btw - gotcha!) if you have more than one Borzoi. Afghan Hounds, Salukis are not nearly as beautiful as Borzoi. https:mentalfloss.com/article/83088/10-elegant-facts-about-borzoi
    , @Lagertha
    you are such a jerk of the worst kind! hahhahhaaa

    For the first time, I may go out on a limb and post a photo of my Borzoi. However, I am so afraid of the public - I am a total, total, scaredy cat, not so intelligent (which many of you have said so) like most of your on this forum, Boomer. I am the Real Housewives of iSteve!

  35. • Replies: @Mehen
    Thanks. I believe your second link deserves more attention.

    https://youtu.be/mGWbDZUXneE
    , @FPD72
    Mount Sinai Hospital is across 5th Avenue from Central Park where Samaritan’s Purse has set up their installation, at the request of the hospital. Samaritan’s Purse didn’t just decide to show up, they came at the specific invitation of Mount Sinai Hospital.

    There is nothing “bullshit” about their presence, any more than the federal government providing ventilators at the request of Governor Como in excess of the eventual lower demand than expected.
  36. No one knows the future, which is where we will know who was right.

    IF Covid19 has a low fatality rate for the healthy (more like the flu), a low rate of secondary health problems (weakened lungs and heart disease, even after recovery), AND no effective drug therapies work and there is no quick vaccine, THEN the Swedes did the right thing. Because we will need to live with Covid19 pretty much as it is over the long term. And the Swedes bit the bullet and did it. And we wasted our money and time.

    IF Covid19 has a relatively high fatality rate, a high rate of secondary health problems even for the young and healthy, AND useful drug therapies are right around the corner and a good vaccine is available in quantity early next year, THEN what the US did was worth it.

    • Agree: AKAHorace, FPD72
    • Disagree: Hippopotamusdrome
    • Troll: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Black-hole creator
    "No one knows the future, which is where we will know who was right."

    No one knows if an asteroid does not destroy most life on Earth in a couple of weeks. Happened before, you know. Does this mean we should all hide in salt mines until some super-science team develops a magic asteroid shield by the year 2050 ? There is only unreliable, anecdotal evidence that corona leads to some mysterious long-term effects that are different in magnitude from say long-term effects from herpes-1 or flu.

    Here is a more realistic plan - make walking and dieting mandatory. If anybody has a BMI >25 in two months, sentence them to a rehabilitation camp and confiscate half of their property. Makes a lot more sense than this shutdown.

    , @MarkinLA
    What if Sweden gets rid of all its Middle Easterners and Somalis from Covid-19?
  37. OT:

    AOCD is an anxiety disorder in which people have recurring, stupid thoughts, ideas or sensations (obsessions) that make them feel driven to repetitively make idiotic statements.

    • LOL: Coemgen
  38. • Replies: @moshe
    Yeah, I love how in the first days of The Panic everyone was shouting that you're going to die by touching a door handle and should improve your chances of survival by spending time with your pet.

    Pets are great but how f'n dare TPTB tell us that everything they don't care for (human interaction) is deadly while everything they do care for (animal interaction) is safe.

    There is no question that at the very least hundreds of people got this particular virus (and obviously everything else from infections to fleas) from playing with their dogs.

    Animals are the dirtiest things you can touch and people kiss their dogs on the mouth and rub their bellies and coat while eating dinner, during which they'll step out to rub other dogs while they wait for their own to take a shit they can then scoop up by hand.

    Why can't people accept nuance? "Yes, having a dog who loves you will do good things for your stress levels while also increasing your chances of catching the kungflu. But we think that the benefits outweigh the risks, YMMV."

    Why must people see things as all or nothing?

    I strongly oppose universal literacy. Most people aren't fit for intelligent conversation.

    , @Redman
    Wait. I live in NY and couldn’t get a test. But they’re testing freaking cats?

    Cue the Simpsons virus episode....
  39. Has anyone broken down the Swedish numbers into native Swedes and immigrants? Native Swedes can make just about any policy work, including socialism. Non-natives; well, not so much.

    Maybe the Swedes are trying to flatten a different curve.

  40. “This is not a disease that can be stopped or eradicated, at least until a working vaccine is produced.” – What about SARS 2002-2003?

    “Nowhere in Europe has been able to slow down the spread considerably.” – Really?

    “Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’…” – Not true.

    “Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous, because COVID-19 is in every European country now. We have more concerns about movements inside Sweden.” – ???

    • Replies: @res

    “This is not a disease that can be stopped or eradicated, at least until a working vaccine is produced.” – What about SARS 2002-2003?
     
    SARS was less easily transmissible. And supposedly there was not presymptomatic transmission.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-did-the-world-shut-down-for-covid-19-but-not-ebola-sars-or-swine-flu/

    “Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’…” – Not true.
     
    How so? If R0 without countermeasures is as high as it seems then that seems like a reasonable statement.

    “Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous, because COVID-19 is in every European country now. We have more concerns about movements inside Sweden.” – ???
     
    That seems odd to me as well. I wonder if they are imposing any quarantine guidelines. They are clearly not actively encouraging travel though.
    https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/temporary-entry-ban-to-eu-via-sweden-extended-for-a-month-due-to-covid-19/
    https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/sweden-extends-recommendation-against-non-essential-travel-to-all-countries/
  41. @Hypnotoad666

    Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’ [when a high proportion of the population is immune to an infection, largely limiting spread people who are not immune] in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.
     
    That's the nub of the matter, right there.

    We are spending trillions in lost wealth for a meaningless delay in the inevitable.

    I agree. The Swedish are, as far as I can tell, the only country, that has a reasonable exit strategy. Although, the data is still a bit sparse, they appear well on their way to herd immunity. It appears that in a few months time, they will be done with CV and their country will be perhaps the only one completely open. With much less damage to their economy and social capital. Great foresight and lots of guts. You got to hand it to them.

  42. Of course, the real difference could lie in the different beliefs of the two peoples. Maybe the Swedes believe that they live in a real world where taking life-long responsibility for your own health and well-being yields real results.

    Americans live in a fantasy world in which doctors are held responsible for making sure Americans will all live forever, regardless of their terrible lifestyle choices. And they were all secretly waiting to be told that the sky was falling, and they could save themselves by sitting on their couches, eating comfort food and watching TV.

  43. The Babylon Bee said it best. Basically if you’re trying to strike a balance between keeping safe and maintaining some level of individual freedom, you want people to die, in the liberal’s mind.

    These are the same liberals who do nothing as fentanyl pours into the country from China, as pure heroin comes in from Mexico, and who indeed blame the users for getting addicted to the stuff. They’re the ones wagging their fingers at you right now for not caring about granny.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    Anne Frank was in a closet for 2 years. 2 YEARS!

    And you complain about Coronavirus Lockdown?!?!?!?!

    *Insult Yiddish Cussword Here*

    (Every liberal on my facebook page has posted this meme...obviously more of the self-flagellation of liberal psychology...They should all go back to Orthodoxy and then whip themselves like Guillermo Del Toro...at least actually whipping themselves would get it out of their system in a healthier way minus the back scars)

  44. Am I crazy or is the issue one of Human Rights/safety rather than The Economy®/Safety.

    I feel like the only sane American.

    The Swedish dude said to his inquisitor, “uh, well, you know, the government doesn’t have the legal power to tell all of the citizens to lock themselves up at home and to close up shop and not go to school, we just don’t have that power and – besides – it really doesn’t seem like there’s any real desperate need for us to have that power with regard to this coronavirus, no?”

    And then the interviewer repeats his now-irrelevant question over and over again about whether this “approach” “worked”.

    It has to do with human liberties vs government overreach and how unwarranted government overreach has been, not “did our nursing home staff fuck up more than the nursing home staff of France or Illinois”. Which so happens to be the only relevang question about “approaches that worked or didn’t work”.

    And then Steve, and all of the quarantine-doubters and quarantine-questioners, go on to worry about Muh Ecomony®.

    This whole “Economy” talk is interesting but WAY down the field from the question of what right the government has to issue martial law against its own citizens over anything less than the most immediate and deadly of threats.

    I can’t stand reading about the two sides being: “You’re killing people” vs. “Restart the economy!”

    Not only are they both insanely hyperbolically wrong about the dangers they each choose to focus on but they’re focusing on the absolutely wrong thing.

    Liberty is the thing.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

    The way the Quarantine Skeptics phrase their arguments is as annoying as how they (generally “Republican” folk) phrase all their other arguments. Homosexual Marriage shouldn’t be allowed because the vast majority of Americans voted against it, on account of them finding it intuitively unnatural and gross and something they didn’y want their kids considering to be normal. NOT because of “God don’t gone make no Adam and Steve!” And Abortion shouldn’t be available at your corner Planned Parenthood because it encourages promiscuity, breaks up the nuclear family, makes Uncle Sam buy all the cows while the free-milk drinkers make themselves obsolete, etc. NOT because “Life begins when a man’s balls start to stir and every sperm is sacred”.

    Etc.

    Republicans keep getting a raw deal because somehow they continually express themselves in the least convincing ways possible.

    I’m not on either political team but I want to see a fair fight!

    And when it comes to the current one it almost sounds like people demanding to be released from house arrest so they can get back to the coal mines where they belong in order to serve The Economy they adore and fear.

    Why is no one talking about telling the government to F itself becuse l, like the Swede said:

    “The Swedish laws on communicable diseases are mostly based on voluntary measures — on individual responsibility. It clearly states that the citizen has the responsibility not to spread a disease. This is the core we started from, because there is not much legal possibility to close down cities in Sweden using the present laws. Quarantine can be contemplated for people or small areas, such as a school or a hotel. But [legally] we cannot lock down a geographical area.”

    Aint it
    just
    that
    Simple??

    • Agree: Mr. Anon
    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    What a ridiculous little screed. The republicans arguments against gay marriage and abortion are for more nuanced and sophisticated than the arguments proffered by liberals. I’ve noticed this little rhetorical trick by a lot of the wordier try hards here of pretending their frankly boring and obvious observations are some kind of iridescent pearl of wisdom.

    The case against the lock down likewise has been two faceted- the state doesn’t have the authority to do this and additionally that in arrogating to itself that power the state is ignoring extremely consequential economic realities. I guess I’m curios if you simply limit yourself to extremely simple-minded sources of information or if you are just pretending that even the average republican is making the kind of comically misrepresentative argument you are claiming.
    , @AKAHorace

    Liberty is the thing.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

     

    In a different context one of the posters Steve Sailer described the US constitution as
    a ghost shirt for white american right wingers. To be fair, a lot of left wing americans
    suffer from the same illusion.

    A virus does not care about the US constitution. The constitution may have been written
    by decent well meaning people but there is no way they could forsee every eventuality and
    emergency. There are times when you have to accept temporary losses to liberty in wars
    and other crises.

    Equally, lawyers can find things such as gay marriage in the constitution. Gay marriage may
    be a good thing, but there is no way that those who drew up the constitution were for
    it.

    If you want to preserve your liberty you have to want liberty even for your opponents.

    Enlightened constitutions are symptoms not causes of liberty.
  45. I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

    I see what you did there and I approve.

  46. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "When it's time to float off on the ice floe, it's time"

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today's New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once... except for de white wimminz, of course.

    “When it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time”

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today’s New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once… except for de white wimminz, of course.

    Good point.

    Mass immigration destroys the inter-generational bonds in the nation. Since there is no actual nation anymore, it’s pretty much “i’ll get mine”. People–with kids–care about their kids. But the nation’s … eh, whatever. Simple common sense, once you no longer live in a nation, but a marketplace.

    I’d gladly hop onto the ice floe, in exchange for hard end to immigration–illegals deported, no more immigration, no more “new Americans”, only jus sanguinis, children of Americans. Wouldn’t get us anywhere near back to the sanity of say 1960. But at least i’d die knowing that my children and their children and all their descendants were no longer under invasion, had a place to live and could with work recover and rebuild a nation. There would at least be … hope.

    With the current regime continuing there is no hope–America is destined to get shittier and shittier until it’s a completely shithole and no one else wants to come.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "With the current regime continuing there is no hope–America is destined to get shittier and shittier until it’s a completely shithole and no one else wants to come."

    Yeah, but when will that be? In thirty years? Forty years? A century from now? As many republics and democracies the world over have had at most a couple of centuries of existence, one could say that the US is living on borrowed time. The fact that we've made it this far and not collectively slipped off the ice floe is a testament to something.
  47. eD says:

    As another commentator pointed out, Hollywood shut down and isn’t releasing any new movies until at least August. So its probably an issue of there being no movies to show even if you keep the movie theaters open.

    I was under the impression that Sweden had its own movie industry, and there is likely nothing stopping movie theaters from showing old classic movies, though there may legal issues involved. But I don’t think Swedish movie studies can produce enough content on short notice to fill the gap.

  48. I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.

    Sometime around the mid nineties, you began to see a profusion of articles in outlets like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Yorker, Slate, etc. – these were long hand-wringing schmerz-filled essays by Baby Boomers with aging or dying parents about how it was leading them to come to grips with their mortality. These pieces would ruminate on how poorly we in the U.S. deal with death, how we try to avoid it, put off dealing with it, how are attitudes on it are immature (no doubt in comparison to enlightened places like Sweden). Yada, yada, yada.

    So all those articles just turned out to be so much BS. The people who wrote them are almost certainly on the Lockdown now, Lockdown tomorrow, Lockdown forever bandwagon. Stop the World! I want to stay on!

  49. A parable. A minor Greek God ruled a singular Aegean island. The people, unruly and obstreperous, prompted anger from their God and he vowed punishment. He considered taking every first born, but that had been done before and was rather passe. So he thundered, “I will kill every second elder from each village”. The old and their children trembled and implored “please Lord spare our dear grandparents, please”. The God paused, and relented: “Or you may sacrifice to me half of your livestock, half of your crops, and half of your habitations. It is your choice.” And the people rejoiced and gave up their livestock, their crops, and their homes, and lived in immiseration for generations. And their God smiled…

    • LOL: Digital Samizdat
    • Replies: @vhrm

    The God paused, and relented: “Or you may sacrifice to me half of your livestock, half of your crops, and half of your habitations. It is your choice.” And the people rejoiced and gave up their livestock, their crops, and their homes, and lived in immiseration for generations. And their God smiled…
     
    The way i heard this story is that the God (who had come to the island from the East) never said anything about sacrifices of crops, livestock and shelter.
    It was the Priests, in their fear, that made up the request and told the people to burn their goods because it is all that they could think of doing that might apease the God.

    The God paused for the smoke of the offerings to clear and then reaped the elders as she had said she would. She wished she had smarter followers.

    Later, the Priests decreed that poor people from foreign lands had to be brought to the island to replant the crops and rebuild the houses because these were jobs that native Islanders just wouldn't do.

  50. @Anon7
    No one knows the future, which is where we will know who was right.

    IF Covid19 has a low fatality rate for the healthy (more like the flu), a low rate of secondary health problems (weakened lungs and heart disease, even after recovery), AND no effective drug therapies work and there is no quick vaccine, THEN the Swedes did the right thing. Because we will need to live with Covid19 pretty much as it is over the long term. And the Swedes bit the bullet and did it. And we wasted our money and time.

    IF Covid19 has a relatively high fatality rate, a high rate of secondary health problems even for the young and healthy, AND useful drug therapies are right around the corner and a good vaccine is available in quantity early next year, THEN what the US did was worth it.

    “No one knows the future, which is where we will know who was right.”

    No one knows if an asteroid does not destroy most life on Earth in a couple of weeks. Happened before, you know. Does this mean we should all hide in salt mines until some super-science team develops a magic asteroid shield by the year 2050 ? There is only unreliable, anecdotal evidence that corona leads to some mysterious long-term effects that are different in magnitude from say long-term effects from herpes-1 or flu.

    Here is a more realistic plan – make walking and dieting mandatory. If anybody has a BMI >25 in two months, sentence them to a rehabilitation camp and confiscate half of their property. Makes a lot more sense than this shutdown.

  51. @Reg Cæsar
    There is no I in Afghan.



    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0219/7798/9220/products/8118767b-d7c5-4b0a-ba14-a535a632acb7_800x.jpg?v=1571742430

    hahaa, love that! But is it, ” I have Borzoi, or Borzois? ” (there is no plural, btw – gotcha!) if you have more than one Borzoi. Afghan Hounds, Salukis are not nearly as beautiful as Borzoi. https:mentalfloss.com/article/83088/10-elegant-facts-about-borzoi

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    The tall blond is the Swede, the short one, the Finn.

    "Never lend your Borzoi to a friend." --Alfred A Knopf

    (The plural is борзые, by the way.)


    Salukis have been known to be harmful to children.
  52. @Hail

    how did the Swedes show up the rest of the civilized world in not acting like their country is a maximum security prison and they must obey every command of “the boss”?
     
    Add this to the list of ways the Corona Crisis has cross-cut preexisting political divisions and created a major new dividing line, at least for the time being.

    Yeah, and I like it.

    I wish the whole thing would shatter to pieces and all of these binary or trinary political teams would fall apart completely.

    I see no reason whatsoever why a man can’t be a serious Christian who opposes gun ownership, supports nordic socialist policies, opposes the death penalty, would vote for an atheist president, smokes weed and thinks that porn should be illegal.

    Why would such a fellow be considered either a madman, a genius or an eccentric instead of just…an American. A free man in a free land coming to his own conclusions – each of which is held by tens of millions of other Americans.

    I’d far rather speak to HIM about his reasoning than to someone whose opinions just so happen to align nearly perfectly with the full grab bag of whatever happens to be The (Republican/Democrat/Libertarian/Green) Party’s Positions that particular decade.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    "I see no reason whatsoever why a man can’t be a serious Christian who opposes gun ownership, supports nordic socialist policies, opposes the death penalty, would vote for an atheist president, smokes weed and thinks that porn should be illegal."

    That's pretty close to NPR, if I may say so!
  53. @Reg Cæsar
    There is no I in Afghan.



    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0219/7798/9220/products/8118767b-d7c5-4b0a-ba14-a535a632acb7_800x.jpg?v=1571742430

    you are such a jerk of the worst kind! hahhahhaaa

    For the first time, I may go out on a limb and post a photo of my Borzoi. However, I am so afraid of the public – I am a total, total, scaredy cat, not so intelligent (which many of you have said so) like most of your on this forum, Boomer. I am the Real Housewives of iSteve!

  54. @miss marple
    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden's calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China's. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?

    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden’s calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China’s. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?

    We looked at the steps taken by the same country and ruling party that gave the World the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, and said to ourselves: “Well, they must know what they’re doing!”.

  55. @Thomm
    Sweden got off very lightly in WW2, while all out of Norway, Finland, and Denmark suffered heavy blows. All three were effectively buffer states to Sweden. This, despite the fact that Finland was Axis while Norway was Allied. Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.

    This could have something to do with it.

    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.

    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz


    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.
     
    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.
     
    Actually, "Thomm" is an exceptionally ignorant (probably Hindu) troll. I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren't considered white in America. He also always claims to be "a native-born white American"...
  56. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Yeah, I love how in the first days of The Panic everyone was shouting that you’re going to die by touching a door handle and should improve your chances of survival by spending time with your pet.

    Pets are great but how f’n dare TPTB tell us that everything they don’t care for (human interaction) is deadly while everything they do care for (animal interaction) is safe.

    There is no question that at the very least hundreds of people got this particular virus (and obviously everything else from infections to fleas) from playing with their dogs.

    Animals are the dirtiest things you can touch and people kiss their dogs on the mouth and rub their bellies and coat while eating dinner, during which they’ll step out to rub other dogs while they wait for their own to take a shit they can then scoop up by hand.

    Why can’t people accept nuance? “Yes, having a dog who loves you will do good things for your stress levels while also increasing your chances of catching the kungflu. But we think that the benefits outweigh the risks, YMMV.”

    Why must people see things as all or nothing?

    I strongly oppose universal literacy. Most people aren’t fit for intelligent conversation.

    • Replies: @anon
    I get it that you hate dogs, but how exactly is your dog going to infect you with CV? It's not unreasonable to suspect that the pathogen load associated with keeping pets helps train one's immune system. I'd love to see data on CV deaths in pet owners vs. lifelong germaphobes.

    Also, abolishing universal literacy would not help your chances of having intelligent conversation, thought it would cut down on nonsense on FB, Twitter, IG, Reddit etc.
  57. @Anon7
    No one knows the future, which is where we will know who was right.

    IF Covid19 has a low fatality rate for the healthy (more like the flu), a low rate of secondary health problems (weakened lungs and heart disease, even after recovery), AND no effective drug therapies work and there is no quick vaccine, THEN the Swedes did the right thing. Because we will need to live with Covid19 pretty much as it is over the long term. And the Swedes bit the bullet and did it. And we wasted our money and time.

    IF Covid19 has a relatively high fatality rate, a high rate of secondary health problems even for the young and healthy, AND useful drug therapies are right around the corner and a good vaccine is available in quantity early next year, THEN what the US did was worth it.

    What if Sweden gets rid of all its Middle Easterners and Somalis from Covid-19?

  58. I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.

    The Anasazi cliff dwellers are said to have pushed their elders over the edge when it was time. This could happen at ripe old ages in the mid-thirties or so. Their teeth were gone by then and they couldn’t eat. Grit from the sedimentary rocks they used to grind corn got in their food and did the damage.

    At least that’s what the park ranger said at Mesa Verde forty years ago, and you know how accurate archaeologists’ conclusions can be. Steve probably got the latest scoop. We do know they practiced cannibalism, at least in some instances, so maybe they just ate their elders.

    It is good now to see some attention paid to a variety of scenarios, like Sweden, and some effort to balance them with economic issues.

    With regard to what people in places like Sweden will voluntarily do, and its effect on economics, let’s just remember that people everywhere are influenced and frightened by all the attention being paid to this story, so of course they are all going to tend to do what people in most countries are forced to do.

    A more balanced approach from public intellectuals and media, as maybe we are beginning to see here, would have helped from the beginning. Maybe then the Swedes would have displayed behavior even less constrained and thus more useful for comparison purposes.

  59. @utu
    "This is not a disease that can be stopped or eradicated, at least until a working vaccine is produced." - What about SARS 2002-2003?

    "Nowhere in Europe has been able to slow down the spread considerably." - Really?

    "Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’..." - Not true.

    "Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous, because COVID-19 is in every European country now. We have more concerns about movements inside Sweden." - ???

    “This is not a disease that can be stopped or eradicated, at least until a working vaccine is produced.” – What about SARS 2002-2003?

    SARS was less easily transmissible. And supposedly there was not presymptomatic transmission.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-did-the-world-shut-down-for-covid-19-but-not-ebola-sars-or-swine-flu/

    “Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’…” – Not true.

    How so? If R0 without countermeasures is as high as it seems then that seems like a reasonable statement.

    “Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous, because COVID-19 is in every European country now. We have more concerns about movements inside Sweden.” – ???

    That seems odd to me as well. I wonder if they are imposing any quarantine guidelines. They are clearly not actively encouraging travel though.
    https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/temporary-entry-ban-to-eu-via-sweden-extended-for-a-month-due-to-covid-19/
    https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/sweden-extends-recommendation-against-non-essential-travel-to-all-countries/

  60. “when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.”

    Going to that big igloo in the sky (or situated at the Pole).

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    The Eskimo way of death saves on burial costs: a polar bear will scarf up the remains. It's a Green solution.
  61. “Closing borders, in my opinion, is ridiculous”

    You know, if the rest of Europe gets the virus under control, the Swedes could find locked out from traveling to the rest of the EU. And tt sounds suspiciously like the government is allowing the virus to spread and lots of Swedes to die to get this ‘herd immunity’ fantasy, while lying to the population about their true intentions.

  62. Ikea printed up helpful instructions for Swedes who want to participate in Pandemic Theater. It’s optional, of course, like the meatballs.

  63. @Kibernetika

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    The last thing that my Swedish/Prussian grandmother told me was that she wanted to die -- she'd lived long enough. My father said something similar. It sounds weird to Americans; there's a practicality in many older cultures that we simply don't grok. And, of course, so many of us haven't had opportunity to spend much time with our older family members.

    It's not fatalism, it's realism.

    Precisely.

    Just before Christmas a woman I know told me about the decision she and her siblings made to cease treatments for her Italian mother (late 80s).

    “She’d lived her life. What was hooked up to machines was a shell.”

    The mother had distributed her estate years earlier for tax reasons and was an NHS patient, so no financial matters were in play.

  64. Haven’t the premieres of most movies been postponed because of the virus? If so, I would expect box office revenues to collapse in any case.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The next Marvel superhero movie, "Black Widow," has had its release postponed from May 1 to November 6. In turn, this discourages movie theater chains from reopening. And with most movie theaters not reopened, then more movies' release dates are likely to be postponed.
  65. @JackOH
    " . . . [O]verall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland . . .".

    Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don't offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability? Am I missing something?

    “Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don’t offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability?”

    Jack, this may partially answer your question, though not exactly what you were looking for. Just a bit of back of the envelope:

    1937 Swedish Covid-19 fatalities/ 10,230,000 Sweden’s population = ~.0189% of population Covid-19 dead

    45,950 USA fatalities/328,200,000 USA’s population = ~.014% of USA population Covid-19 dead

    So Sweden is not fairing much worse than the US in percent of its population lost to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. “Just because”, or any other reason one can think of for doing it, here are the numbers if we toss our most deadly big city out the USA:

    14887 NYC fatalities/8,399,000 NYC’s population = ~.177% of NYC population Covid-19 dead

    328,200,000 Total USA population – 8,399,00 New York City population = 319,801,000 USA population less that of NYC

    31,063 (45950-14887) US fatalities less those in NYC/319,801,000 USA population less NYC = ~.0097% US minus NYC population Covid-19 dead

    With New York City excluded from the US, Swedes so far have died at roughly 2X the rate Americans have. Not too terrible, and not so great.

    Here is some other somewhat relevant data on Sweden:

    Last year 505 Swedes succumbed to an influenza virus:

    41B3EA2E-F007-4852-927B-5FAE2B53B52D

    The people of the USA look to be in much worse heath than Swedes:

    43385E7D-7FA0-407F-99C5-427EF2C56EAD

    Swedes are living longer than they used to, but may die out: as they don’t have replacement numbers of children:

    789398B5-42A1-4B1E-A2FD-1B7BE27E4DD7

    Maybe Sweden’s flu season will be ending in a couple of week or three. But Covid-19 got a late start?

    90BB0A5B-0113-447B-ABEE-12A1FCC242FB

    Swedes seem to die a way too high a rate for “Diseases of the Nervous System”:

    65ADDDC1-39B5-404F-94CE-C6CDE8332CAE

    And lastly, the Swedish Stock Market has pretty much mirrored the performance of the US’s during the Covid Crisis:

    B856A84C-D3D2-43EF-A578-ADE767706AFF

    • Thanks: JackOH
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Norway might well be the most physically fit first world country on earth. Sweden is probably not terribly worse.
  66. @Matt89
    Haven't the premieres of most movies been postponed because of the virus? If so, I would expect box office revenues to collapse in any case.

    The next Marvel superhero movie, “Black Widow,” has had its release postponed from May 1 to November 6. In turn, this discourages movie theater chains from reopening. And with most movie theaters not reopened, then more movies’ release dates are likely to be postponed.

  67. @danand

    "Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don’t offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability?"
     
    Jack, this may partially answer your question, though not exactly what you were looking for. Just a bit of back of the envelope:

    1937 Swedish Covid-19 fatalities/ 10,230,000 Sweden's population = ~.0189% of population Covid-19 dead

    45,950 USA fatalities/328,200,000 USA's population = ~.014% of USA population Covid-19 dead

    So Sweden is not fairing much worse than the US in percent of its population lost to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. "Just because", or any other reason one can think of for doing it, here are the numbers if we toss our most deadly big city out the USA:

    14887 NYC fatalities/8,399,000 NYC's population = ~.177% of NYC population Covid-19 dead

    328,200,000 Total USA population - 8,399,00 New York City population = 319,801,000 USA population less that of NYC

    31,063 (45950-14887) US fatalities less those in NYC/319,801,000 USA population less NYC = ~.0097% US minus NYC population Covid-19 dead

    With New York City excluded from the US, Swedes so far have died at roughly 2X the rate Americans have. Not too terrible, and not so great.

    Here is some other somewhat relevant data on Sweden:

    Last year 505 Swedes succumbed to an influenza virus:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3uv


    The people of the USA look to be in much worse heath than Swedes:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTosvh


    Swedes are living longer than they used to, but may die out: as they don't have replacement numbers of children:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3vY


    Maybe Sweden's flu season will be ending in a couple of week or three. But Covid-19 got a late start?

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTj3uA


    Swedes seem to die a way too high a rate for "Diseases of the Nervous System":

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTmTff


    And lastly, the Swedish Stock Market has pretty much mirrored the performance of the US's during the Covid Crisis:

    https://flic.kr/p/2iTrhZH

    Norway might well be the most physically fit first world country on earth. Sweden is probably not terribly worse.

    • Replies: @ATate
    My wife and her sister took a trip to Iceland and Norway last summer. They’re of Norwegian descent, my wife is 5’10” and her sister is 6’1” and they had the same conclusion; Tall beautiful and fit people everywhere in that country.
  68. @Steve Sailer
    Norway might well be the most physically fit first world country on earth. Sweden is probably not terribly worse.

    My wife and her sister took a trip to Iceland and Norway last summer. They’re of Norwegian descent, my wife is 5’10” and her sister is 6’1” and they had the same conclusion; Tall beautiful and fit people everywhere in that country.

  69. @moshe
    Am I crazy or is the issue one of Human Rights/safety rather than The Economy®/Safety.

    I feel like the only sane American.

    The Swedish dude said to his inquisitor, "uh, well, you know, the government doesn't have the legal power to tell all of the citizens to lock themselves up at home and to close up shop and not go to school, we just don't have that power and - besides - it really doesn't seem like there's any real desperate need for us to have that power with regard to this coronavirus, no?"

    And then the interviewer repeats his now-irrelevant question over and over again about whether this "approach" "worked".

    It has to do with human liberties vs government overreach and how unwarranted government overreach has been, not "did our nursing home staff fuck up more than the nursing home staff of France or Illinois". Which so happens to be the only relevang question about "approaches that worked or didn't work".

    And then Steve, and all of the quarantine-doubters and quarantine-questioners, go on to worry about Muh Ecomony®.

    This whole "Economy" talk is interesting but WAY down the field from the question of what right the government has to issue martial law against its own citizens over anything less than the most immediate and deadly of threats.

    I can't stand reading about the two sides being: "You're killing people" vs. "Restart the economy!"

    Not only are they both insanely hyperbolically wrong about the dangers they each choose to focus on but they're focusing on the absolutely wrong thing.

    Liberty is the thing.


    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

    The way the Quarantine Skeptics phrase their arguments is as annoying as how they (generally "Republican" folk) phrase all their other arguments. Homosexual Marriage shouldn't be allowed because the vast majority of Americans voted against it, on account of them finding it intuitively unnatural and gross and something they didn'y want their kids considering to be normal. NOT because of "God don't gone make no Adam and Steve!" And Abortion shouldn't be available at your corner Planned Parenthood because it encourages promiscuity, breaks up the nuclear family, makes Uncle Sam buy all the cows while the free-milk drinkers make themselves obsolete, etc. NOT because "Life begins when a man's balls start to stir and every sperm is sacred".

    Etc.

    Republicans keep getting a raw deal because somehow they continually express themselves in the least convincing ways possible.

    I'm not on either political team but I want to see a fair fight!

    And when it comes to the current one it almost sounds like people demanding to be released from house arrest so they can get back to the coal mines where they belong in order to serve The Economy they adore and fear.

    Why is no one talking about telling the government to F itself becuse l, like the Swede said:

    "The Swedish laws on communicable diseases are mostly based on voluntary measures — on individual responsibility. It clearly states that the citizen has the responsibility not to spread a disease. This is the core we started from, because there is not much legal possibility to close down cities in Sweden using the present laws. Quarantine can be contemplated for people or small areas, such as a school or a hotel. But [legally] we cannot lock down a geographical area."


    Aint it
    just
    that
    Simple??

    What a ridiculous little screed. The republicans arguments against gay marriage and abortion are for more nuanced and sophisticated than the arguments proffered by liberals. I’ve noticed this little rhetorical trick by a lot of the wordier try hards here of pretending their frankly boring and obvious observations are some kind of iridescent pearl of wisdom.

    The case against the lock down likewise has been two faceted- the state doesn’t have the authority to do this and additionally that in arrogating to itself that power the state is ignoring extremely consequential economic realities. I guess I’m curios if you simply limit yourself to extremely simple-minded sources of information or if you are just pretending that even the average republican is making the kind of comically misrepresentative argument you are claiming.

  70. I’m dying to see a movie and get movie theater popcorn again but there isn’t anything to see. Our theaters have put in the fancy lounge seating with high seats and short walls between the very wide rows and electric recliner home theatre-style pleather seats with seat heat. It’s pretty sweet and as long as there is a chair or two between you and the next stranger, which was the norm in my area at matinee showings, I think my local place would be fine to open.

    • Replies: @moshe
    According to this article, though it may seek counterintuitive, movie theatres are not likely to be superspreaders.

    It's a good article. Worth reading. Lots of food for new thoughts.


    https://quillette.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-superspreader-events-in-28-countries-critical-patterns-and-lessons/
  71. @Hypnotoad666

    Each country has to reach ‘herd immunity’ [when a high proportion of the population is immune to an infection, largely limiting spread people who are not immune] in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.
     
    That's the nub of the matter, right there.

    We are spending trillions in lost wealth for a meaningless delay in the inevitable.

    If they come up with an effective treatment for this virus, then the delay will not have been “meaningless.”

  72. I would expect Norway and Denmark economies to be hard hit by the Oil prices . Is there any reasonable way to adjust for that difference?

  73. @JackOH
    " . . . [O]verall fatality rate, which is higher than that of its Nordic neighbours — 131 per million people, compared with 55 per million in Denmark and 14 per million in Finland . . .".

    Why do American media report fatalities in a state or county or city, but don't offer fatality rate per hundred thousand or per million, which would allow comparability? Am I missing something?

    NYT case map and count gives per capita.

    • Thanks: JackOH
  74. @miss marple
    I agree and view that lost wealth/overspending as a panic response. I also wonder what would have happened if we had observed Sweden's calm reaction to the covid epidemic before China's. Did our leaders stampede after smelling fear?

    If 3000 to 5000 Americans were dying each day due to Covid-19, do you realy think that politicians would not panic.

    Adopting the Swedish way means more deaths per day which means and many more outbreaks in nursing homes. As it looks now, nursing homes and speciality nursing centers will probably be sued out of business. Image how many businesses will be sued out of business when they reopen while failing to protect workers and customers.

    The Trump Administration is trying to give business liability protection from Covi19 so that the biggest A-hole bosses will not be held responsible for being short sighted, bullies, and foolish.

    • Replies: @HA
    "Adopting the Swedish way means more deaths per day which means and many more outbreaks in nursing homes."

    Particularly since nursing homes have been especially hard hit in Sweden. All that pretty talk about "protecting the vulnerable" seems to have been just Orwellian claptrap. And if doctors have come up with more effective ways of treating patients (e.g. fewer ventilators, more oxygenation) over the last few months, then some of those patients will have died in vain. Moreover, many of the carers (I hope someone who knows the situation will correct me on this if I'm mistaken) are immigrant shift-workers who don't get the generous sick-leave that other Swedes do, which means that even if they have a cough, they'll hope for the best and keep working because they need that paycheck. A little more time and effort might have gone a long way towards resolving that.

    HOWEVER (and there's almost always a however in any such comparison) if the Swedes do reach herd immunity significantly sooner, maybe they can still come out ahead of the rest. I mean, there's plenty of badly run nursing homes elsewhere that are also taking a hit. I wouldn't rule it out.

  75. @Polynikes
    In other news of anti-hysteria, Wisconsin is showing no spike in cases after holding regularly scheduled elections two weeks ago. The majority of people voted absentee, but still plenty of people went to the polls. Proper precautions were taken maybe proving at the very least states should be able to open back up with some precautions in place?

    This is already out of date.

    The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    As is usual with you--mostly because I assume you read the incredibly dumbed down local news--you are wrong and have no basis in reality.* Here's the actual numbers:

    19 people out of ~325,000 that voted have shown up positive. Without getting into that we don't even know if that's how or where they contracted it, it gives you a rate of about 6/100,000.

    Wisconsin's overall infection rate is 36/100,000 people.

    In other words, it is 6x more dangerous, in regards to contracting covid 19, to stay locked down in your home than it was to go out and vote that day.

    *My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You're not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don't have enough street smarts to know when you're getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal's talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?
    , @Muggles
    >>The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.<<

    Re: comment about the supposed dangers of Wisconsin primary voting recently, and COVID-19

    Correlation isn't causation. While it is possible some of these people contracted this flu as a result of in-person voting, there is no good way to determine how many. Out of the tens of thousands who voted in-person (highly probable, a larger share of flu prone black voters, who tend to vote in- person) there is no way to sort out the "voting" causes from other causes which these supposed now sick voters may have been exposed to.

    It would take a very detailed statistical analysis of the "vote victims" versus the identical populations of non voter flu victims, to see if voting in-person actually increased odds of catching the flu.

    There is a national Dem party push because of this flu to mandate mail in balloting, presumably to flood the voting boxes with easily purchased mailed in votes. Very odd, that. This is the same party which has insisted that the "Russians" somehow managed to elect Trump, all by themselves. Gee, now the same Dems want to make it much easier for any vote fixer to flood ballot boxes. I guess they figure the evil Putinistas are too stupid to do what they intend to do themselves. Buy votes or just manufacture realistic looking ballots to mail in. Consistency is a terrible thing...
  76. @Kibernetika

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    The last thing that my Swedish/Prussian grandmother told me was that she wanted to die -- she'd lived long enough. My father said something similar. It sounds weird to Americans; there's a practicality in many older cultures that we simply don't grok. And, of course, so many of us haven't had opportunity to spend much time with our older family members.

    It's not fatalism, it's realism.

    Sleep after Toil, Port after stormy Seas,
    Ease after War, Death after Life, does greatly please.
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/edmund_spenser_389853

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2003/288/20386_1066343082.jpg
  77. I know how to look up movie theater box office by country, which is collected like sports statistics. There, I don’t see much difference between open Sweden versus shut Denmark and Norway.

    Swedes voluntarily dropped box office by about 98% by the second half of March. But I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

    How do you control for quality of movies?

    More telling and informative would be stats on bars and restaurants.

  78. Whatever happened with Belarus? I saw that they have very few deaths in a population larger than Switzerland.

    Weren’t they still playing soccer matches about 3 weeks ago? Haven’t heard any reports about their relative success with the CV.

  79. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Wait. I live in NY and couldn’t get a test. But they’re testing freaking cats?

    Cue the Simpsons virus episode….

  80. @Kibernetika

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    The last thing that my Swedish/Prussian grandmother told me was that she wanted to die -- she'd lived long enough. My father said something similar. It sounds weird to Americans; there's a practicality in many older cultures that we simply don't grok. And, of course, so many of us haven't had opportunity to spend much time with our older family members.

    It's not fatalism, it's realism.

    C.G. Jung had similar opinion, although he definitely framed it in a more spiritual or “metaphysical” way..

    Lao-Tzu once said, “All are clear and I alone am clouded.” He is expressing what is experienced in advanced older age. He is the example of a man with superior insight who has seen and experienced worth and worthlessness, and who at the end of his life desires to return into his own being, into the eternal unknowable meaning. This is true of the great philosopher and the old peasant. It is old age and thus a limitation and humans want to return to their place of divine, their source, and eventually this becomes apparent when they experience limitation. Death becomes a source of knowing as it is the natural destined direction whether we want it to be or not.

  81. @John Derbyshire
    Sleep after Toil, Port after stormy Seas,
    Ease after War, Death after Life, does greatly please.
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/edmund_spenser_389853

    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
    Other side of the argument:

    For who to dumb Forgetfulness a prey,
    This pleasing anxious being e'er resign'd,
    Left the warm precincts of the cheerful day,
    Nor cast one longing, ling'ring look behind?
     
    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44299/elegy-written-in-a-country-churchyard
  82. @epebble
    Swedish fatality: 192 per Million
    Switzerland 174
    Ireland 156
    USA 144
    Portugal 77
    Denmark 66
    Germany 63
    Austria 57
    Canada 52
    Slovenia 38
    Norway 34
    Estonia 33
    Iceland 29
    Turkey 28
    Romania 27
    Finland 27
    Hungary 23
    Greece 12
    Poland 11
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Slovakia 3

    Sweden is not doing well; They are doing less worse than some countries in Europe/Western world.

    Interesting table which could lead to the below, admittedly crude, calculation of dollars spent per excess death in the US.

    Swedes 192/million – US 144/million = 48 per million excess deaths in Sweden

    Apply extra death rate to US population: 48 deaths per million X 330 million=15840 deaths potentially avoided in US with measures taken.

    NPR this AM quotes federal expenditures on COVID 19 at $2.7 trillion so far. This is government spending only and certainly underestimates total cost of this outbreak.

    $2.7 trillion(2.7 X 10 12th power) divided by 15840 (1.584 x 10 4th power) excess deaths gives
    $1.7045 X 10 8th power = $170 million per excess death prevented.

    New York data on worldometer.info breaks down deaths by age range; 72.3% of deaths over 65 and 47.7% over 75.

    I am certainly willing to have anyone check these crude figures and the US is certainly not Nordic in culture or behavior, so a voluntary isolation program would almost certainly not work as well. In any case, $170 million per life for an overwhelmingly older cohort might be considered excessive by any numerate sentient being.

    • Agree: AnonAnon
  83. @Paleo Liberal
    This is already out of date.

    The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.

    As is usual with you–mostly because I assume you read the incredibly dumbed down local news–you are wrong and have no basis in reality.* Here’s the actual numbers:

    19 people out of ~325,000 that voted have shown up positive. Without getting into that we don’t even know if that’s how or where they contracted it, it gives you a rate of about 6/100,000.

    Wisconsin’s overall infection rate is 36/100,000 people.

    In other words, it is 6x more dangerous, in regards to contracting covid 19, to stay locked down in your home than it was to go out and vote that day.

    *My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You’re not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don’t have enough street smarts to know when you’re getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal’s talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Gawd, you are stupid.

    You make a claim. I mentioned that the updated reports from state health officials contradict your claim, based on new information you may not have had.

    Again, the report was state health officials. Not liberal newspapers.

    So, you go on a rant about dem stoopid libruls. Because If a liberal newspaper says it, no matter what the source, it can’t be true. Carry your umbrella if them librul weathermen say it’s sunny.

    Your claim was there was no spike at all. The state health officials have found 19 new cases so far, which may or may not be associated with voting. That may not be a big spike, but not non-exsistent.

    Take some Xanax before you have a heart attack.

    Just make sure the MD who prescribes the meds isn’t a liberal. :-)
    , @William Badwhite

    My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You’re not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don’t have enough street smarts to know when you’re getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal’s talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?
     
    Good postscript. Paleo knows and remembers a lot of things that simply aren't true: Hillary Clinton finished #1 in her law school class; liberals led the fight against communism; the "science" of global warming/cooling/whatever is not only "settled" but he understands it.

    Someone once said that liberals are either vicious or stupid. Paleo seems like a nice enough fellow. Your take is far more charitable than "stupid". They just "know" a lot that isn't true. A big part of that is a naive faith in mendacious institutions and media.

  84. But I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

    There are also good statistics showing that the Swedish restaurant industry has bottomed out, and common sense would tell you that tourism can’t be thriving. Sweden is cheating, really – taking credit for being more open and liberal when the objective circumstances dictate that actual economic activity is hardly much different than in Germany. Sweden is an export driven country. If all the Ikeas in the rest of Europe are closed, that can’t be great for Sweden. No one is buying Volvos in the rest of the world, no one needs refined petroleum (a major Swedish export), steel and paper sales are also sharply down. The only small economic advantage Sweden has is that retail shops can keep trading (although Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic have also started resuming retail sales) and you can get a haircut. Most people would probably point to schools being open as greater freedom, although that decision is ironically based in Swedish leftist thinking that under no circumstances can women be forced into traditional gender roles. The state must take the children, come what may.

    Were some superficial freedoms for a few months really worth several thousand excess deaths? In hindsight I suspect Sweden will end up being heavily criticized.

    • Replies: @eD
    Being able to get a haircut from a professional barber or hairdresser is a pretty big deal. I think even Mao during the Cultural Revolution let people get haircuts.
    , @HA
    "In hindsight I suspect Sweden will end up being heavily criticized."

    Not by the "Sweden is champion of Western man" loons. They have too much anchor bias for that and they've had lots of practice coming up with rationalizations for their own failed past predictions. Remember, they still think Wittkovski is "right" despite the fact that he predicted only 10,000 would die from this. They just don't care. And regardless of how high the death toll of this thing gets, it won't faze them. For them, the days when hundreds of thousands died from smallpox and Hong Kong flu and polio and whatever, with no one bothering to do much of anything, were apparently a kind of Golden Age of manly Stoicism. I think that Overton window discrepancy is what fuels much of their rage and consternation -- somehow, the world collectively became more "K" and less "r" when it comes to mass casualties, without anyone asking them for their permission.

    That being said, the Swedes seem to have dodged the bullet on overwhelming the ICU's and the people are OK with how their experts have handled this, just like they're OK with their cradle-to-grave welfare state. Theirs was arguably a really risky approach, because it easily could have turned out differently given the uncertainty ranges, but after all, the choice was theirs to make. Yeah, they might have saved a fair number of the dead if their infections had been delayed just a little longer, so that doctors would have known to try ivermectin and plasma from recovered patients, or whatever else we've learned about just recently, but hey, different strokes, I say -- that's what borders are for.

    I will say that anyone who thinks that a country containing a city like New York will ever regard Sweden as having taken the "correct" approach is beyond reasoning, and I agree that Sweden will likely take some PR lumps because of that (and their newfound respect among many unz.com readers will, if anything, cause many SWEDES to have a few second thoughts). Their cheerleaders here won't care, of course, but again, there's no arguing with zealots like that. And I say that as someone who still thinks it quite possible that covid19 will ultimately be recognized as not much worse than a bad flu strain, though given the anchor bias on both sides, I'm guessing the final verdict on that is likely years away.

    I do still marvel how, on a website that is so worried about increasing statist control and intrusion, the Swedish government has come to be regarded by so many of the commentariat as a kind of model approach. I mean, talk about cures that wind up being worse than the disease. At least Tiny Duck had the sense to disappear after his "black men are too sexy to catch coronavirus" schtick blew up, but apparently there's more than a few people here ready to fill his absence with let's-all-be-more-like-Sweden agitprop.

  85. @epebble
    Swedish fatality: 192 per Million
    Switzerland 174
    Ireland 156
    USA 144
    Portugal 77
    Denmark 66
    Germany 63
    Austria 57
    Canada 52
    Slovenia 38
    Norway 34
    Estonia 33
    Iceland 29
    Turkey 28
    Romania 27
    Finland 27
    Hungary 23
    Greece 12
    Poland 11
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Slovakia 3

    Sweden is not doing well; They are doing less worse than some countries in Europe/Western world.

    Thanks, epebble.

    FWIW- statistics from Ohio (USA); sources: U. S. Census pop. est., and Ohio’s COVID-19 info site.

    Pop: 11,689,000

    COVID-19 fatalities: 610 (as of 4/22)

    Fatality rate: 52/million.

    I’ve heard our local TV news people using obscurantist language to describe a nearby county having a population of 228,000 with COVID-19 deaths exceeding that of Cuyahoga County (Cleveland, Ohio) with a population of 1, 235,000. Something like: “XYZ County has more deaths than Cuyahoga County . . . [meaningful pause and arched eyebrow while going for the supposed kill shot] . . . even though Cuyahoga County has a greater population than XYZ County.” Neither county’s population is actually mentioned if memory’s okay, nor fatality rate. Total cases for both counties are.

  86. @Peterike
    “ … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. ”

    So how vibrant are Swedish nursing home workers?

    “ … The big debate we are facing right now is around care homes for older people, where we registered very unfortunate outbreaks of the coronavirus. ”

    So how vibrant are Swedish nursing home workers?

    Johan Giesecke, the man who hired Tegnell, said in an interview that Sweden has lots of immigrants working in nursing homes and that is one of the causes of the high death rates there. The immigrants have poor Swedish language skills and are less intelligent, though he didn’t put it so bluntly, and therefore have more trouble following directions on what they need to do to stop the spread of the disease and take care of the patients.

    He also said Sweden has a small number of nursing homes with a lot of people in each one while nearby Norway has a lot of nursing homes with a small number in each one. It’s more difficult to contain the disease if you have a lot of old people herded together. He said he wishes they had focused more on the nursing homes early on.

  87. @Jonathan Mason
    Seems like a sensible approach, but this is not the American way of doing things!

    Sweden must not have Boomers.

  88. @Hail
    Sweden stands today as the Hero of the West. Vindicated and an example to follow. The vindication is already here, as I wrote in this comprehensive review of the evidence now available in the several-month-long pro-CoronaPanic vs. anti-CoronaPanic debate:

    Against the Corona Panic, Pt. III: “Just the Flu” Vindicated by the Data; Or, Why to End the Shutdowns Now


    “We, the Swedish government, decided early in January that the measures we should take against the pandemic should be evidence-based. When you start looking around for the measures being taken now by different countries, you find that very few of them have any shred of evidence basis…”

    — Dr. Johan Giesecke, world-renowned epidemiologist, adviser to the Swedish government, and the man who hired Anders Tegnell to direct the Swedish coronavirus pandemic strategy, speaking April 17
     

    (a) Evidence-based approach, vs.
    (b) Wild, gut-feeling, ultra-worst-case, media-led, hysterical approach, in which any mention of cost-benefit-analysis is blasphemy.

    Forget the CoronaPanic; (b) is really never a good idea in any situation. Is it? I mean, not for rational, independent nations that aren't subject to apocalyptic cult control. The potential for the kinds of self-inflicted disasters, as this has been, is always high with (b).


    Professor Ansgar Lohse, Director at the Hamburg University Hospital:

    "In my opinion, the Swedish measures are the most rational in the world. Of course, the question arises whether this can be kept up psychologically. Initially, the Swedes have to reckon with significantly more deaths, but in the medium to long term these will then be significantly reduced. The bill will be paid in a year – if the Swedes can hold out. Unfortunately, the fear of the virus often forces politicians to take actions that are not necessarily reasonable. Politics is driven also by the images in the media."
     

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/against-the-corona-panic-pt-iii-just-the-flu-vindicated-by-the-data-or-why-to-end-the-shutdowns-now/#sweden

    (b) Wild, gut-feeling, ultra-worst-case, media-led, hysterical approach, in which any mention of cost-benefit-analysis is blasphemy.

    Welcome to the Gynocracy.

  89. @Polynikes
    In other news of anti-hysteria, Wisconsin is showing no spike in cases after holding regularly scheduled elections two weeks ago. The majority of people voted absentee, but still plenty of people went to the polls. Proper precautions were taken maybe proving at the very least states should be able to open back up with some precautions in place?

    The reason you aren’t hearing anything about it is because the left’s candidate for supreme court won, which I don’t think was expected.

  90. @Anon

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    In Japan, legend has it that they dumped their oldsters at Ubasuteyama, Mt. Ubasute:

    Ubasute (姥捨て, "abandoning an old woman", also called obasute and sometimes oyasute 親捨て "abandoning a parent") is the mythical practice of senicide in Japan, whereby an infirm or elderly relative was carried to a mountain, or some other remote, desolate place, and left there to die. According to the Kodansha Illustrated Encyclopedia of Japan, ubasute "is the subject of legend, but ... does not seem ever to have been a common custom".

    Ubasute has left its mark on Japanese folklore, where it forms the basis of many legends, poems, and koans. In one Buddhist allegory, a son carries his mother up a mountain on his back. During the journey, she stretches out her arms, catching the twigs and scattering them in their wake, so that her son will be able to find the way home.

    A poem commemorates the story:

    In the depths of the mountains,
    Whom was it for the aged mother snapped
    One twig after another?
    Heedless of herself
    She did so
    For the sake of her son

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute
     
    Here it discusses Sweden:

    Ättestupa (Swedish for 'kin/clan precipice') is a name given to a number of precipices in Sweden.

    The name supposedly denotes sites where ritual senicide took place during Nordic prehistoric times, whereby elderly people threw themselves, or were thrown, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household.

    The term ättestupa came into use in Sweden in the seventeenth century, inspired by the Old Icelandic saga Gautreks saga, which is partly set in the Swedish region of Götaland. Gautreks saga became known in Sweden in 1664, when an edition and Swedish translation was published by Olaus Verelius. This seems to have inspired Swedish antiquarians from the seventeenth century through into the nineteenth to label various cliffs with the name ättestupa. The Swedish linguist Adolf Noreen started questioning the myth at the end of the nineteenth century, and it is now generally accepted among researchers that the practice of suicide precipices never existed. Place-names which Gautreks saga inspired, however, continue to exist in the Swedish landscape.

    The term ättestupa has been used often in modern times, in political contexts, to underline how bad an insufficiently funded social security program can be, especially for retirees.[citation needed] In the 1960s, the Swedish comedy radio program Mosebacke Monarki satirically introduced ättestupa, abbreviated ÄTP, as an alternative to ATP, a state-provided pension.

    The 2019 horror film Midsommar by Ari Aster uses the term to describe a fictional tradition in which the elderly cast themselves off a high cliff in ritual suicide at the age of 72.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa
     
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It's all a big, collosal myth. How on earth do these crazy stories get started? Mankind especially in olden days were noble savages, who knew no cruelty, had no word for war, and used every part of the buffalo.

    Oh, no no no no no! Didn’t you see James Cameron’s vegan movie? Our ancestors lived on plants, not buffalo!

  91. @Peter Akuleyev
    But I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

    There are also good statistics showing that the Swedish restaurant industry has bottomed out, and common sense would tell you that tourism can't be thriving. Sweden is cheating, really - taking credit for being more open and liberal when the objective circumstances dictate that actual economic activity is hardly much different than in Germany. Sweden is an export driven country. If all the Ikeas in the rest of Europe are closed, that can't be great for Sweden. No one is buying Volvos in the rest of the world, no one needs refined petroleum (a major Swedish export), steel and paper sales are also sharply down. The only small economic advantage Sweden has is that retail shops can keep trading (although Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic have also started resuming retail sales) and you can get a haircut. Most people would probably point to schools being open as greater freedom, although that decision is ironically based in Swedish leftist thinking that under no circumstances can women be forced into traditional gender roles. The state must take the children, come what may.

    Were some superficial freedoms for a few months really worth several thousand excess deaths? In hindsight I suspect Sweden will end up being heavily criticized.

    Being able to get a haircut from a professional barber or hairdresser is a pretty big deal. I think even Mao during the Cultural Revolution let people get haircuts.

    • Agree: Cortes
  92. @Bragadocious
    The Babylon Bee said it best. Basically if you're trying to strike a balance between keeping safe and maintaining some level of individual freedom, you want people to die, in the liberal's mind.

    These are the same liberals who do nothing as fentanyl pours into the country from China, as pure heroin comes in from Mexico, and who indeed blame the users for getting addicted to the stuff. They're the ones wagging their fingers at you right now for not caring about granny.

    Anne Frank was in a closet for 2 years. 2 YEARS!

    And you complain about Coronavirus Lockdown?!?!?!?!

    *Insult Yiddish Cussword Here*

    (Every liberal on my facebook page has posted this meme…obviously more of the self-flagellation of liberal psychology…They should all go back to Orthodoxy and then whip themselves like Guillermo Del Toro…at least actually whipping themselves would get it out of their system in a healthier way minus the back scars)

  93. Obviously, Corona is a more humane death to elderly Swedish than the upcoming death they would have received at the Midsommar festivals.

    Surprised no one’s mentioned it.

  94. Interesting to see so many Sweden fans here. I see another act of unnecessary self-harm. Like these zombie blondes always do.

    Clearly, letting a deadly virus like SARS2 run its course is insane. I’ll wait another year until we see the final score.

    Idiots are free to claim victory until then.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Then you should have waited until next year to post instead of name calling now.
  95. So I live in Stockholm which is at the center of the epidemic in Sweden, and as Tegnell has indicated, Stockholm has either peaked in new infections or is in the process of doing so now. Of course, even if we had peaked a few days ago, it takes 6-10 days before the first cases show up in the ICUs so the strain on the health care system will only be shown in early May in such a scenario.

    That said, as I’ve commented on this blog previously, we have managed to keep a 20% of our ICU capacity for spare use in case of a sudden surge. We have continually added to our ICU capacity and Stockholm has now close to quadrupled from where it was just 6 weeks ago.

    A big problem in the now-infamous Imperial paper by Neil Ferguson et al that was responsible for the UK’s 180 degree turnaround from a strategy very similar to ours to a panic-lockdown was that they didn’t model for fast ICU capacity addition. But as we have shown, it is certainly possible. I do not wish to be mean, but we’re not Italy. Our state capacity is much higher, so they just assumed everyone would be as unable to rapidly scale as Italy has failed to. Another issue is that we’ve kept the growth of the curve reasonably contained, so that we never had a massive acceleration like the Southern European countries did.

    Tom Britton, a mathematical professor at Stockholm University, estimates in his own private model that Stockholm will reach ~30% herd immunity by the end of this month. Folkhälsomyndigheten, our CDC where Tegnell is employed, has released their own model showing a 26% herd immunity in the capital by May 1st. You don’t need to get to 50% herd immunity to see massive slowdown in infections. Even at 25-30% of the S-curve, you will see significant effects.

    We’re now in the process of doing serological tests, and we will get the results within a few weeks, which should clarify matters further.

    Sweden’s strategy has essentially been to frontload our deaths but to give us fast herd immunity while also giving time for the health care system to scale their ICU capacity. This is a hard strategy to accomplish but so far we’ve managed to do it without any major breakdowns like Italy, Spain etc.

    One word about the deaths in the elder care homes. Johan Giesecke, Mr Tegnell’s predecessor, has stated that a major reason why this happened is because a lot of the people who work there are non-European, often refugees, and their Swedish is very limited so the recommendations never really got “through” to the same extent. Another factor is that Swedish elderly care homes are much bigger on average than e.g. Norwegians ones are. So if you get 5 homes infected in each country, you have many more patients and care workers infected in Sweden than you’d have in Norway.

    The language issue is also a reason why Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm despite being <3% of the population in late March. I've seen numbers showing 5-6X overrepresentation among Syrians and Iraqis, too. A lot of these communities have low Swedish media penetration and their own media often do little to no information on this at all.

    I don't think our approach has been perfect, however. For one thing, we have tested far fewer than Norway. Aside from the structural reasons around care homes (size + language barriers), the Norwegians also tested a lot more care workers early on, whereas our testing capacity has been bottlenecked for unexplained reasons. Tegnell has admitted that this has been a problem, but the solution is out of his hands. Most test labs are private or large research institutions run by their own organisations.

    That said, we've gone from 5K tests per week to 20K tests per week and we're now aiming for 50K tests by the end of this month. Next month we should hopefully reach 100K per week. Given this, I am actually surprised our daily new cases have not gone up much further, which indicates that the worst may be behind us (as Tom Britton suggested in his model).

    All in all, I've seen minimal disruption in my life. Life has gone on as usual here without much panic and it is quite pleasant.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Good to see you've thought it through. BTW, Thule, how come you didn't fight with us in the War of 1939-45?
    , @Hail

    Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm
     
    That is amazing. Is there an official source for this?
  96. @Thomm
    Sweden got off very lightly in WW2, while all out of Norway, Finland, and Denmark suffered heavy blows. All three were effectively buffer states to Sweden. This, despite the fact that Finland was Axis while Norway was Allied. Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.

    This could have something to do with it.

    Norway wasn’t allied. It was invaded by Britain, a brainchild of Churchill. the Nazis were just better when they didn’t have to rely on sea transport, and defeated the Norwegians and Brits.

  97. @epebble
    Swedish fatality: 192 per Million
    Switzerland 174
    Ireland 156
    USA 144
    Portugal 77
    Denmark 66
    Germany 63
    Austria 57
    Canada 52
    Slovenia 38
    Norway 34
    Estonia 33
    Iceland 29
    Turkey 28
    Romania 27
    Finland 27
    Hungary 23
    Greece 12
    Poland 11
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Slovakia 3

    Sweden is not doing well; They are doing less worse than some countries in Europe/Western world.

    Sweden is not doing well

    LOL.

    “192 per Million”

    192 ÷ 1,000,000 = 0.000192

    They will manage.

    • Replies: @anon
    9/11 killed 0.00001 of population; consequent wars costed an estimated $10,000,000,000,000

    ( we did not manage it well)

    Zero is a very useful symbol! Imagine communicating this thought without zeroes. How does one estimate the cost of Alexander's war on Persia?

  98. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "When it's time to float off on the ice floe, it's time"

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today's New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once... except for de white wimminz, of course.

    “Sweden didn’t go into lockdown or impose strict social-distancing policies. Instead, it rolled out voluntary, ‘trust-based’ measures”

    Those “‘trust-based’ measures” won’t work so well among populations hailing from South of the Hajnal Line. Maybe this is a method some wily Swede policy maker has devised for clearing out those swarthy pest-holes infesting Malmo and other parts of this once serene and happy country. Somalis and their ilk will ignore decent sensible behavior, infect one another, and be significantly reduced in number. meanwhile, reasonable Swede autochthones will wear masks, avoid congregating in large crowds (particularly those containing hyper-melinated elements), and engage in other behaviors conducive their health and that of their race.

  99. @Mr. Anon

    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.
     
    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.

    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.

    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.

    Actually, “Thomm” is an exceptionally ignorant (probably Hindu) troll. I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren’t considered white in America. He also always claims to be “a native-born white American”…

    • Replies: @Thomm

    I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren’t considered white in America.
     
    False. I never said that. You never provide a link to your bogus claims, I see.

    Plus, even on the topic at hand, I am correct. The German invasion of Norway/Denmark took two months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weser%C3%BCbung


    Oh, and Ron Unz knows that I am not a South Asian. He has admitted it in the past. He sporadically encourages that narrative to distract readers away from the true purpose of this website.

  100. @TorontoTraveller
    Steve - do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.

    Steve – do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.

    “He lowered his head to his chest and listened to the snow as his son rode away. He felt the sticks of wood next to him again. One by one, the fire would eat them. And step by step, death would cover him. When the last stick was gone, the cold would come. First, his feet would freeze. Then, his hands. The cold would travel slowly from the outside to the inside of him, and he would rest. It was easy…all men must die.”

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
  101. @Kibernetika

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    The last thing that my Swedish/Prussian grandmother told me was that she wanted to die -- she'd lived long enough. My father said something similar. It sounds weird to Americans; there's a practicality in many older cultures that we simply don't grok. And, of course, so many of us haven't had opportunity to spend much time with our older family members.

    It's not fatalism, it's realism.

    Just anecdotal evidence but I’ve found the more religious someone is, the less afraid of death. My wife’s great aunt (101 years old) is in great shape mentally, a tad frail but otherwise good physically. She said at Christmas that she’s not at all afraid of dying. FWIW, she’s very devout.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    Anyone that's lived a century KNOWS they've won the Genetic Lottery and that they they had a good run.

    It's like when I told a Black woman 'look at all these people dying young.' And her response was: 'And dying for Stupid Stuff.' People who couldn't figure out the simplest of ideas: "What happens next?"
  102. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe."

    Going to that big igloo in the sky (or situated at the Pole).

    The Eskimo way of death saves on burial costs: a polar bear will scarf up the remains. It’s a Green solution.

  103. @William Badwhite
    Just anecdotal evidence but I've found the more religious someone is, the less afraid of death. My wife's great aunt (101 years old) is in great shape mentally, a tad frail but otherwise good physically. She said at Christmas that she's not at all afraid of dying. FWIW, she's very devout.

    Anyone that’s lived a century KNOWS they’ve won the Genetic Lottery and that they they had a good run.

    It’s like when I told a Black woman ‘look at all these people dying young.’ And her response was: ‘And dying for Stupid Stuff.’ People who couldn’t figure out the simplest of ideas: “What happens next?”

  104. @Anon

    I have the vague impression that Swedes have sort of an Eskimo view of elder deaths: when it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time to float off on the ice floe.
     
    In Japan, legend has it that they dumped their oldsters at Ubasuteyama, Mt. Ubasute:

    Ubasute (姥捨て, "abandoning an old woman", also called obasute and sometimes oyasute 親捨て "abandoning a parent") is the mythical practice of senicide in Japan, whereby an infirm or elderly relative was carried to a mountain, or some other remote, desolate place, and left there to die. According to the Kodansha Illustrated Encyclopedia of Japan, ubasute "is the subject of legend, but ... does not seem ever to have been a common custom".

    Ubasute has left its mark on Japanese folklore, where it forms the basis of many legends, poems, and koans. In one Buddhist allegory, a son carries his mother up a mountain on his back. During the journey, she stretches out her arms, catching the twigs and scattering them in their wake, so that her son will be able to find the way home.

    A poem commemorates the story:

    In the depths of the mountains,
    Whom was it for the aged mother snapped
    One twig after another?
    Heedless of herself
    She did so
    For the sake of her son

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute
     
    Here it discusses Sweden:

    Ättestupa (Swedish for 'kin/clan precipice') is a name given to a number of precipices in Sweden.

    The name supposedly denotes sites where ritual senicide took place during Nordic prehistoric times, whereby elderly people threw themselves, or were thrown, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household.

    The term ättestupa came into use in Sweden in the seventeenth century, inspired by the Old Icelandic saga Gautreks saga, which is partly set in the Swedish region of Götaland. Gautreks saga became known in Sweden in 1664, when an edition and Swedish translation was published by Olaus Verelius. This seems to have inspired Swedish antiquarians from the seventeenth century through into the nineteenth to label various cliffs with the name ättestupa. The Swedish linguist Adolf Noreen started questioning the myth at the end of the nineteenth century, and it is now generally accepted among researchers that the practice of suicide precipices never existed. Place-names which Gautreks saga inspired, however, continue to exist in the Swedish landscape.

    The term ättestupa has been used often in modern times, in political contexts, to underline how bad an insufficiently funded social security program can be, especially for retirees.[citation needed] In the 1960s, the Swedish comedy radio program Mosebacke Monarki satirically introduced ättestupa, abbreviated ÄTP, as an alternative to ATP, a state-provided pension.

    The 2019 horror film Midsommar by Ari Aster uses the term to describe a fictional tradition in which the elderly cast themselves off a high cliff in ritual suicide at the age of 72.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa
     
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It's all a big, collosal myth. How on earth do these crazy stories get started? Mankind especially in olden days were noble savages, who knew no cruelty, had no word for war, and used every part of the buffalo.

    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth.

    In the case of the Eskimo (who prefer the term “Inuit”), we have eyewitness accounts of elder suicide. The following account is from Knud Rasmussen, a Danish explorer and anthropologist, who had come to visit a sick Inuit woman:

    I straightened myself up [inside the hut] and went across at once to the spot where the sick woman used to lie. On coming nearer, I nearly cried out aloud: I found myself looking into a face that was perfectly blue, with a pair of great eyes projecting right out from the head, and the mouth wide open. I stood there a little to pull myself together, and now perceived a line fastened round the old woman’s neck and from there to the roof of the hut. When I was able to speak once more, I asked those in the house what this meant. It was a long time before anyone answered. At last the son-in-law spoke up, and said: ‘She felt that she was old, and having begun to spit up blood, she wished to die quickly, and I agreed. I only made the line fast to the roof, the rest she did herself.’

    Rasmussen, K. (1929). Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos, Vol. 7 (1) of Report of the Fifth Thule Expedition 1921-24, Copenhagen, Gyldendalske Boghandel.

    It was a common practice, but the decision was always left up to the elder. There were also cases of cannibalism during times of starvation, when dying grandparents would request that their flesh be eaten by their children and grandchildren after death.

    • Replies: @moshe
    Yes, but that's not related to any "ice flo" myth about killing off the elderly. That's assisted suicide for someone in a hopeless and painful condition. It's how the very first King of the Jews (Saul) died.


    Back to the subject at hand, STEVE, I'm sure by now the big news you're analyzing is the New York numbers but Check Out this article. I'm half way through and it's amazing.

    https://quillette.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-superspreader-events-in-28-countries-critical-patterns-and-lessons/

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    The commenter was just being ironic.
    , @Anon
    Eat me, my darling and light of my life. Eat me.

    Not so different from an organ donor card. Key in both cases that the donation is entirely voluntary and post-mortem.
    .
    And in emergency situations where it is cannibalism of the dead, or death - any pork in a storm, as they say.
  105. @moshe
    Am I crazy or is the issue one of Human Rights/safety rather than The Economy®/Safety.

    I feel like the only sane American.

    The Swedish dude said to his inquisitor, "uh, well, you know, the government doesn't have the legal power to tell all of the citizens to lock themselves up at home and to close up shop and not go to school, we just don't have that power and - besides - it really doesn't seem like there's any real desperate need for us to have that power with regard to this coronavirus, no?"

    And then the interviewer repeats his now-irrelevant question over and over again about whether this "approach" "worked".

    It has to do with human liberties vs government overreach and how unwarranted government overreach has been, not "did our nursing home staff fuck up more than the nursing home staff of France or Illinois". Which so happens to be the only relevang question about "approaches that worked or didn't work".

    And then Steve, and all of the quarantine-doubters and quarantine-questioners, go on to worry about Muh Ecomony®.

    This whole "Economy" talk is interesting but WAY down the field from the question of what right the government has to issue martial law against its own citizens over anything less than the most immediate and deadly of threats.

    I can't stand reading about the two sides being: "You're killing people" vs. "Restart the economy!"

    Not only are they both insanely hyperbolically wrong about the dangers they each choose to focus on but they're focusing on the absolutely wrong thing.

    Liberty is the thing.


    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

    The way the Quarantine Skeptics phrase their arguments is as annoying as how they (generally "Republican" folk) phrase all their other arguments. Homosexual Marriage shouldn't be allowed because the vast majority of Americans voted against it, on account of them finding it intuitively unnatural and gross and something they didn'y want their kids considering to be normal. NOT because of "God don't gone make no Adam and Steve!" And Abortion shouldn't be available at your corner Planned Parenthood because it encourages promiscuity, breaks up the nuclear family, makes Uncle Sam buy all the cows while the free-milk drinkers make themselves obsolete, etc. NOT because "Life begins when a man's balls start to stir and every sperm is sacred".

    Etc.

    Republicans keep getting a raw deal because somehow they continually express themselves in the least convincing ways possible.

    I'm not on either political team but I want to see a fair fight!

    And when it comes to the current one it almost sounds like people demanding to be released from house arrest so they can get back to the coal mines where they belong in order to serve The Economy they adore and fear.

    Why is no one talking about telling the government to F itself becuse l, like the Swede said:

    "The Swedish laws on communicable diseases are mostly based on voluntary measures — on individual responsibility. It clearly states that the citizen has the responsibility not to spread a disease. This is the core we started from, because there is not much legal possibility to close down cities in Sweden using the present laws. Quarantine can be contemplated for people or small areas, such as a school or a hotel. But [legally] we cannot lock down a geographical area."


    Aint it
    just
    that
    Simple??

    Liberty is the thing.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

    In a different context one of the posters Steve Sailer described the US constitution as
    a ghost shirt for white american right wingers. To be fair, a lot of left wing americans
    suffer from the same illusion.

    A virus does not care about the US constitution. The constitution may have been written
    by decent well meaning people but there is no way they could forsee every eventuality and
    emergency. There are times when you have to accept temporary losses to liberty in wars
    and other crises.

    Equally, lawyers can find things such as gay marriage in the constitution. Gay marriage may
    be a good thing, but there is no way that those who drew up the constitution were for
    it.

    If you want to preserve your liberty you have to want liberty even for your opponents.

    Enlightened constitutions are symptoms not causes of liberty.

    • Replies: @moshe
    Your argument is a fair one to make. especially if you consider the sentence in the Declaration of Independence right after the one that I quoted.

    (You should also know the difference between the declaration of Independence and the Constitution for that matter, for that matter, Lol)

    And what I am saying is that the Argument Against Quarantinism ought to be framed as the Founding Fathers would have framed it.

    With Individual Liberty being their High Card, rather than Muh Ecomony® being their claim. Like I said, rhey sound like a bunch of people struggling against the barricades in order to finally! hopefully! break through so that they can run back to the coal mines.

    It's a shameful way for a people to think in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave (also not from the Constitution AKAHorace ;) ).
  106. @Peter Frost
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth.

    In the case of the Eskimo (who prefer the term "Inuit"), we have eyewitness accounts of elder suicide. The following account is from Knud Rasmussen, a Danish explorer and anthropologist, who had come to visit a sick Inuit woman:

    I straightened myself up [inside the hut] and went across at once to the spot where the sick woman used to lie. On coming nearer, I nearly cried out aloud: I found myself looking into a face that was perfectly blue, with a pair of great eyes projecting right out from the head, and the mouth wide open. I stood there a little to pull myself together, and now perceived a line fastened round the old woman's neck and from there to the roof of the hut. When I was able to speak once more, I asked those in the house what this meant. It was a long time before anyone answered. At last the son-in-law spoke up, and said: 'She felt that she was old, and having begun to spit up blood, she wished to die quickly, and I agreed. I only made the line fast to the roof, the rest she did herself.'
     
    Rasmussen, K. (1929). Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos, Vol. 7 (1) of Report of the Fifth Thule Expedition 1921-24, Copenhagen, Gyldendalske Boghandel.

    It was a common practice, but the decision was always left up to the elder. There were also cases of cannibalism during times of starvation, when dying grandparents would request that their flesh be eaten by their children and grandchildren after death.

    Yes, but that’s not related to any “ice flo” myth about killing off the elderly. That’s assisted suicide for someone in a hopeless and painful condition. It’s how the very first King of the Jews (Saul) died.

    Back to the subject at hand, STEVE, I’m sure by now the big news you’re analyzing is the New York numbers but Check Out this article. I’m half way through and it’s amazing.

    https://quillette.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-superspreader-events-in-28-countries-critical-patterns-and-lessons/

  107. @AP
    Off topic but the Norwegian show Beforeigners would be your type of show to review. It's about "migrants" from Norway's past coming into the future through s time hole, about 13,000 a year coming in from the either the 19th century, 11th century, or 10,000 years ago and integrating into modern society:

    https://variety.com/2019/film/festivals/beforeigners-anne-bjornstad-hbo-first-norwegian-original-series-1203310317/

    There are even "trans" people from the modern world who feel they were born in the wrong time period and try to transition.

    Apparently the show consulted with academic linguists to make the old Norse speakers authentic. Check out the specialist in Old Norse from the University of Oslo (on the left):

    https://sciencenorway.no/history-language-media/creating-languages-of-the-past-for-hbos-beforeigners/1560670

    https://image.sciencenorway.no/1551707.jpg?imageId=1551707&width=1058&height=604

    Apparently the show consulted with academic linguists to make the old Norse speakers authentic

    Or they could just have hired Icelanders and Faroese.

    • Replies: @AP
    Very trivial spoiler, but in the show they initially thought the Norsemen were Icelanders but the Icelandic interpreter had trouble understanding them also.
  108. @Peter Frost
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth.

    In the case of the Eskimo (who prefer the term "Inuit"), we have eyewitness accounts of elder suicide. The following account is from Knud Rasmussen, a Danish explorer and anthropologist, who had come to visit a sick Inuit woman:

    I straightened myself up [inside the hut] and went across at once to the spot where the sick woman used to lie. On coming nearer, I nearly cried out aloud: I found myself looking into a face that was perfectly blue, with a pair of great eyes projecting right out from the head, and the mouth wide open. I stood there a little to pull myself together, and now perceived a line fastened round the old woman's neck and from there to the roof of the hut. When I was able to speak once more, I asked those in the house what this meant. It was a long time before anyone answered. At last the son-in-law spoke up, and said: 'She felt that she was old, and having begun to spit up blood, she wished to die quickly, and I agreed. I only made the line fast to the roof, the rest she did herself.'
     
    Rasmussen, K. (1929). Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos, Vol. 7 (1) of Report of the Fifth Thule Expedition 1921-24, Copenhagen, Gyldendalske Boghandel.

    It was a common practice, but the decision was always left up to the elder. There were also cases of cannibalism during times of starvation, when dying grandparents would request that their flesh be eaten by their children and grandchildren after death.

    The commenter was just being ironic.

  109. Anon[248] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Frost
    So it appears that, like cannibalism, killing off the elderly never ever really existed. It’s all a big, collosal myth.

    In the case of the Eskimo (who prefer the term "Inuit"), we have eyewitness accounts of elder suicide. The following account is from Knud Rasmussen, a Danish explorer and anthropologist, who had come to visit a sick Inuit woman:

    I straightened myself up [inside the hut] and went across at once to the spot where the sick woman used to lie. On coming nearer, I nearly cried out aloud: I found myself looking into a face that was perfectly blue, with a pair of great eyes projecting right out from the head, and the mouth wide open. I stood there a little to pull myself together, and now perceived a line fastened round the old woman's neck and from there to the roof of the hut. When I was able to speak once more, I asked those in the house what this meant. It was a long time before anyone answered. At last the son-in-law spoke up, and said: 'She felt that she was old, and having begun to spit up blood, she wished to die quickly, and I agreed. I only made the line fast to the roof, the rest she did herself.'
     
    Rasmussen, K. (1929). Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos, Vol. 7 (1) of Report of the Fifth Thule Expedition 1921-24, Copenhagen, Gyldendalske Boghandel.

    It was a common practice, but the decision was always left up to the elder. There were also cases of cannibalism during times of starvation, when dying grandparents would request that their flesh be eaten by their children and grandchildren after death.

    Eat me, my darling and light of my life. Eat me.

    Not so different from an organ donor card. Key in both cases that the donation is entirely voluntary and post-mortem.
    .
    And in emergency situations where it is cannibalism of the dead, or death – any pork in a storm, as they say.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Magnificent!

    Thanks.
  110. @Lagertha
    hahaa, love that! But is it, " I have Borzoi, or Borzois? " (there is no plural, btw - gotcha!) if you have more than one Borzoi. Afghan Hounds, Salukis are not nearly as beautiful as Borzoi. https:mentalfloss.com/article/83088/10-elegant-facts-about-borzoi

    The tall blond is the Swede, the short one, the Finn.

    “Never lend your Borzoi to a friend.” –Alfred A Knopf

    (The plural is борзые, by the way.)

    Salukis have been known to be harmful to children.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    what about Silken Windhounds?
  111. @Hippopotamusdrome


    Sweden is not doing well

     

    LOL.

    "192 per Million"

    192 ÷ 1,000,000 = 0.000192

    They will manage.

    9/11 killed 0.00001 of population; consequent wars costed an estimated $10,000,000,000,000

    ( we did not manage it well)

    Zero is a very useful symbol! Imagine communicating this thought without zeroes. How does one estimate the cost of Alexander’s war on Persia?

  112. @Paleo Liberal
    This is already out of date.

    The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.

    >>The latest numbers are 19 cases and quickly rising of in person voters and poll workers.<<

    Re: comment about the supposed dangers of Wisconsin primary voting recently, and COVID-19

    Correlation isn't causation. While it is possible some of these people contracted this flu as a result of in-person voting, there is no good way to determine how many. Out of the tens of thousands who voted in-person (highly probable, a larger share of flu prone black voters, who tend to vote in- person) there is no way to sort out the "voting" causes from other causes which these supposed now sick voters may have been exposed to.

    It would take a very detailed statistical analysis of the "vote victims" versus the identical populations of non voter flu victims, to see if voting in-person actually increased odds of catching the flu.

    There is a national Dem party push because of this flu to mandate mail in balloting, presumably to flood the voting boxes with easily purchased mailed in votes. Very odd, that. This is the same party which has insisted that the "Russians" somehow managed to elect Trump, all by themselves. Gee, now the same Dems want to make it much easier for any vote fixer to flood ballot boxes. I guess they figure the evil Putinistas are too stupid to do what they intend to do themselves. Buy votes or just manufacture realistic looking ballots to mail in. Consistency is a terrible thing…

  113. anon[420] • Disclaimer says:
    @moshe
    Yeah, I love how in the first days of The Panic everyone was shouting that you're going to die by touching a door handle and should improve your chances of survival by spending time with your pet.

    Pets are great but how f'n dare TPTB tell us that everything they don't care for (human interaction) is deadly while everything they do care for (animal interaction) is safe.

    There is no question that at the very least hundreds of people got this particular virus (and obviously everything else from infections to fleas) from playing with their dogs.

    Animals are the dirtiest things you can touch and people kiss their dogs on the mouth and rub their bellies and coat while eating dinner, during which they'll step out to rub other dogs while they wait for their own to take a shit they can then scoop up by hand.

    Why can't people accept nuance? "Yes, having a dog who loves you will do good things for your stress levels while also increasing your chances of catching the kungflu. But we think that the benefits outweigh the risks, YMMV."

    Why must people see things as all or nothing?

    I strongly oppose universal literacy. Most people aren't fit for intelligent conversation.

    I get it that you hate dogs, but how exactly is your dog going to infect you with CV? It’s not unreasonable to suspect that the pathogen load associated with keeping pets helps train one’s immune system. I’d love to see data on CV deaths in pet owners vs. lifelong germaphobes.

    Also, abolishing universal literacy would not help your chances of having intelligent conversation, thought it would cut down on nonsense on FB, Twitter, IG, Reddit etc.

    • Replies: @moshe
    Many dog owners get really close and intimate with their dogs and inhale a lot of what is in their fur.

    And their fur is absolutely certain to carry a lot of wet germs from people who play with your dog, talk to your dog, talk or sneeze or cough near your dog, etc.

    Your dog (and I get that this will madden many people) is a mobile carrier of germs that you or others who get intimate with them will then pass along.

    This doesn't mean that I hate dogs. I think it's great to love and be loved by a stupid and simple animal. I'm serious. We humans are a lot more complicated than dogs. Apparently many people for whom a dog serves no functional purpose will cater to one for years on end, incouding carrying around their shit, as though they were the lowliest of Untouchables, enslaved to their DoGGod. I'm having fun mocking it but I'm also really serious about how great dogs happen to be. So great, that the electorate allows people to own them despite the fact that to everyone other than their owners thay are a barking nusaince. Society tolerates them as they tolerate babies and ice cream trucks because so many individuals love them.

    As for literacy, I'm not taking my suggestion too seriously but there is what to be said about how much more fruitful and pleasant conversation is when only the meritocratic ones can engage in it.

    Imagine HL Mencken comes back to life today and starts writing as he wills. How long will it be before he will be sufficiently threatened that he surrenders?

    The mob shouldn't be treated like the cattle that Nietzsche sometimes says he would prefer for them, but certainly not as the sort of equals who get to watson people like Watson, Summers, Louis CK, or any of the other greats. No Great Man from the past could survive the twitteraties. TR? Twain? Any of the explorers?

    It is a sad thing that the masses can read and write. What they read they misunderstand and what they write is either sinpky a watse of space or a virus.

    Let them stay home getting boners with their dogs ;)

    , @amanuensis
    Cats and ferrets are more susceptible than dogs. Oh, lions & tigers too, as the Bronx Zoo has just proved. What no one wants to consider is whether the felines can return the favor. Lots of denial on that one.
  114. @Anon
    Eat me, my darling and light of my life. Eat me.

    Not so different from an organ donor card. Key in both cases that the donation is entirely voluntary and post-mortem.
    .
    And in emergency situations where it is cannibalism of the dead, or death - any pork in a storm, as they say.

    Magnificent!

    Thanks.

  115. @Mr Mox

    Steve – do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.
     
    "He lowered his head to his chest and listened to the snow as his son rode away. He felt the sticks of wood next to him again. One by one, the fire would eat them. And step by step, death would cover him. When the last stick was gone, the cold would come. First, his feet would freeze. Then, his hands. The cold would travel slowly from the outside to the inside of him, and he would rest. It was easy…all men must die."

    I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

  116. @Polynikes
    As is usual with you--mostly because I assume you read the incredibly dumbed down local news--you are wrong and have no basis in reality.* Here's the actual numbers:

    19 people out of ~325,000 that voted have shown up positive. Without getting into that we don't even know if that's how or where they contracted it, it gives you a rate of about 6/100,000.

    Wisconsin's overall infection rate is 36/100,000 people.

    In other words, it is 6x more dangerous, in regards to contracting covid 19, to stay locked down in your home than it was to go out and vote that day.

    *My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You're not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don't have enough street smarts to know when you're getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal's talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?

    Gawd, you are stupid.

    You make a claim. I mentioned that the updated reports from state health officials contradict your claim, based on new information you may not have had.

    Again, the report was state health officials. Not liberal newspapers.

    So, you go on a rant about dem stoopid libruls. Because If a liberal newspaper says it, no matter what the source, it can’t be true. Carry your umbrella if them librul weathermen say it’s sunny.

    Your claim was there was no spike at all. The state health officials have found 19 new cases so far, which may or may not be associated with voting. That may not be a big spike, but not non-exsistent.

    Take some Xanax before you have a heart attack.

    Just make sure the MD who prescribes the meds isn’t a liberal. 🙂

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    Wisconsin DHS Secretary confirmed no spike in cases from the election.
  117. @B36
    A parable. A minor Greek God ruled a singular Aegean island. The people, unruly and obstreperous, prompted anger from their God and he vowed punishment. He considered taking every first born, but that had been done before and was rather passe. So he thundered, "I will kill every second elder from each village". The old and their children trembled and implored "please Lord spare our dear grandparents, please". The God paused, and relented: "Or you may sacrifice to me half of your livestock, half of your crops, and half of your habitations. It is your choice." And the people rejoiced and gave up their livestock, their crops, and their homes, and lived in immiseration for generations. And their God smiled...

    The God paused, and relented: “Or you may sacrifice to me half of your livestock, half of your crops, and half of your habitations. It is your choice.” And the people rejoiced and gave up their livestock, their crops, and their homes, and lived in immiseration for generations. And their God smiled…

    The way i heard this story is that the God (who had come to the island from the East) never said anything about sacrifices of crops, livestock and shelter.
    It was the Priests, in their fear, that made up the request and told the people to burn their goods because it is all that they could think of doing that might apease the God.

    The God paused for the smoke of the offerings to clear and then reaped the elders as she had said she would. She wished she had smarter followers.

    Later, the Priests decreed that poor people from foreign lands had to be brought to the island to replant the crops and rebuild the houses because these were jobs that native Islanders just wouldn’t do.

  118. @Polynikes
    As is usual with you--mostly because I assume you read the incredibly dumbed down local news--you are wrong and have no basis in reality.* Here's the actual numbers:

    19 people out of ~325,000 that voted have shown up positive. Without getting into that we don't even know if that's how or where they contracted it, it gives you a rate of about 6/100,000.

    Wisconsin's overall infection rate is 36/100,000 people.

    In other words, it is 6x more dangerous, in regards to contracting covid 19, to stay locked down in your home than it was to go out and vote that day.

    *My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You're not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don't have enough street smarts to know when you're getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal's talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?

    My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You’re not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don’t have enough street smarts to know when you’re getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal’s talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?

    Good postscript. Paleo knows and remembers a lot of things that simply aren’t true: Hillary Clinton finished #1 in her law school class; liberals led the fight against communism; the “science” of global warming/cooling/whatever is not only “settled” but he understands it.

    Someone once said that liberals are either vicious or stupid. Paleo seems like a nice enough fellow. Your take is far more charitable than “stupid”. They just “know” a lot that isn’t true. A big part of that is a naive faith in mendacious institutions and media.

    • Replies: @anon
    We need to somehow change the ridiculous, flattering terminology with which we describe the Left: "liberals" in the U.S. are not liberal, as the word is commonly understood, they're bolsheviks/maoists/Red Guards. There is nothing liberal in their ideology, despite the expedient support for deviancy, criminality, and drugs. In case anyone still had any doubts about this, the Covid-19 lockdowns has made it very clear: the "liberals" are hugely in favor of restricting or abolishing personal rights, including freedom of movement, freedom of speech, and freedom from surveillance. I haven't seen any surveys by political affiliation, but just from reading around the internet, it seems American bolsheviks are overwhelmingly in favor of the "lockdown". While conservatives (a term which excludes much of the Republican Party) are usually, but not always, against the lockdowns and their de facto abolition of these rights.
  119. @AnonAnon
    I’m dying to see a movie and get movie theater popcorn again but there isn’t anything to see. Our theaters have put in the fancy lounge seating with high seats and short walls between the very wide rows and electric recliner home theatre-style pleather seats with seat heat. It’s pretty sweet and as long as there is a chair or two between you and the next stranger, which was the norm in my area at matinee showings, I think my local place would be fine to open.

    According to this article, though it may seek counterintuitive, movie theatres are not likely to be superspreaders.

    It’s a good article. Worth reading. Lots of food for new thoughts.

    https://quillette.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-superspreader-events-in-28-countries-critical-patterns-and-lessons/

    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    Very interesting article - thank you for sharing.
  120. @AKAHorace

    Liberty is the thing.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    I see no mention in this of rights endowed to The Ecomony®.

     

    In a different context one of the posters Steve Sailer described the US constitution as
    a ghost shirt for white american right wingers. To be fair, a lot of left wing americans
    suffer from the same illusion.

    A virus does not care about the US constitution. The constitution may have been written
    by decent well meaning people but there is no way they could forsee every eventuality and
    emergency. There are times when you have to accept temporary losses to liberty in wars
    and other crises.

    Equally, lawyers can find things such as gay marriage in the constitution. Gay marriage may
    be a good thing, but there is no way that those who drew up the constitution were for
    it.

    If you want to preserve your liberty you have to want liberty even for your opponents.

    Enlightened constitutions are symptoms not causes of liberty.

    Your argument is a fair one to make. especially if you consider the sentence in the Declaration of Independence right after the one that I quoted.

    (You should also know the difference between the declaration of Independence and the Constitution for that matter, for that matter, Lol)

    And what I am saying is that the Argument Against Quarantinism ought to be framed as the Founding Fathers would have framed it.

    With Individual Liberty being their High Card, rather than Muh Ecomony® being their claim. Like I said, rhey sound like a bunch of people struggling against the barricades in order to finally! hopefully! break through so that they can run back to the coal mines.

    It’s a shameful way for a people to think in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave (also not from the Constitution AKAHorace 😉 ).

  121. anon[416] • Disclaimer says:
    @William Badwhite

    My side note: you rather prove my general theory about liberals. You’re not stupid, but you read a lot of stupid stuff and take it at face value. You don’t have enough street smarts to know when you’re getting snowed over. I see you on here generally repeating the Milwaukee Sentinel or Wisc. State Journal’s talking points as if that means something. You realize one of the more salient features of this blog is making fun of that type of journalism, right?
     
    Good postscript. Paleo knows and remembers a lot of things that simply aren't true: Hillary Clinton finished #1 in her law school class; liberals led the fight against communism; the "science" of global warming/cooling/whatever is not only "settled" but he understands it.

    Someone once said that liberals are either vicious or stupid. Paleo seems like a nice enough fellow. Your take is far more charitable than "stupid". They just "know" a lot that isn't true. A big part of that is a naive faith in mendacious institutions and media.

    We need to somehow change the ridiculous, flattering terminology with which we describe the Left: “liberals” in the U.S. are not liberal, as the word is commonly understood, they’re bolsheviks/maoists/Red Guards. There is nothing liberal in their ideology, despite the expedient support for deviancy, criminality, and drugs. In case anyone still had any doubts about this, the Covid-19 lockdowns has made it very clear: the “liberals” are hugely in favor of restricting or abolishing personal rights, including freedom of movement, freedom of speech, and freedom from surveillance. I haven’t seen any surveys by political affiliation, but just from reading around the internet, it seems American bolsheviks are overwhelmingly in favor of the “lockdown”. While conservatives (a term which excludes much of the Republican Party) are usually, but not always, against the lockdowns and their de facto abolition of these rights.

  122. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Mount Sinai Hospital is across 5th Avenue from Central Park where Samaritan’s Purse has set up their installation, at the request of the hospital. Samaritan’s Purse didn’t just decide to show up, they came at the specific invitation of Mount Sinai Hospital.

    There is nothing “bullshit” about their presence, any more than the federal government providing ventilators at the request of Governor Como in excess of the eventual lower demand than expected.

  123. Hail says: • Website
    @TorontoTraveller
    Steve - do you object to the Eskimo approach to old age and death? Honest question.

    In line with Mr Mox’s reply (Jack London, 1910s?), and Polynikes’ reply (Blade Runner, 1980s), here is another:

    Every man dies. Not every man really lives.”

    — Mel Gibson as William Wallace, Braveheart, 1990s

    This is a line that occurred to me, recently, in contemplating the (ongoing) CoronaPanic. Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time. But as Hank Williams Sr. once sang, “[We’ll] never get out of this world alive.” The point is to make something of the time we have.

    This is not a novel insight, and is pretty much a cliche, but it’s worth saying directly in these times.

    The great religious thinkers have all dealt with this, and indeed maybe that is, in simple terms, the purpose of religion. More recently it has been the purpose of philosophy. In centuries past, our ancestors found great freedom in religion because it liberated us from fear of death.

    • Replies: @Mehen

    Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time.
     
    Indeed. There is very much to this notion. One book in particular that explores this topic is the mind-blowing “The Denial of Death” by Ernst Becker. Highly recommended.
    , @TorontoTraveller
    My grandfather, for the last 25 years of his life (he died at 97), used to say:

    "I don't look forward to death with enthusiasm, but I do look forward to it with a certain amount of interest."

    That struck a young TorontoTraveller as peculiar, but now that I am middle-aged, I see myself as being on track to reach the same perspective on the whole matter.
    , @TorontoTraveller
    I forget if it was Carroll Shelby or Ken Miles who replied to someone - probably a reporter - questioning or pontificating about the dangers of motor-car racing:

    "Well, I think these people need to get right with God."
  124. @moshe
    According to this article, though it may seek counterintuitive, movie theatres are not likely to be superspreaders.

    It's a good article. Worth reading. Lots of food for new thoughts.


    https://quillette.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-superspreader-events-in-28-countries-critical-patterns-and-lessons/

    Very interesting article – thank you for sharing.

  125. @Paleo Liberal
    Gawd, you are stupid.

    You make a claim. I mentioned that the updated reports from state health officials contradict your claim, based on new information you may not have had.

    Again, the report was state health officials. Not liberal newspapers.

    So, you go on a rant about dem stoopid libruls. Because If a liberal newspaper says it, no matter what the source, it can’t be true. Carry your umbrella if them librul weathermen say it’s sunny.

    Your claim was there was no spike at all. The state health officials have found 19 new cases so far, which may or may not be associated with voting. That may not be a big spike, but not non-exsistent.

    Take some Xanax before you have a heart attack.

    Just make sure the MD who prescribes the meds isn’t a liberal. :-)

    Wisconsin DHS Secretary confirmed no spike in cases from the election.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Do you have a link by any chance?
    I tried to look that up on Google and could not confirm what you reported.
  126. @Bardon Kaldian
    https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2003/288/20386_1066343082.jpg

    Other side of the argument:

    For who to dumb Forgetfulness a prey,
    This pleasing anxious being e’er resign’d,
    Left the warm precincts of the cheerful day,
    Nor cast one longing, ling’ring look behind?

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44299/elegy-written-in-a-country-churchyard

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    Of course Internet forums are not places for lengthy discussions; of course, death is an inexhaustible subject. But, if we are to say anything about death & older people, and by older I mean over 80...

    Simply- there is no common response to it.

    Temperamentally, people may be indifferent to the idea of complete & total annihilation of their individual consciousness; and yet, many are frightened, utterly scared of the very idea. It is reasonable to be afraid of painful dying & of prolonged degradation, of psycho-physical disintegration, loss of personal dignity and humiliating decrepitude. There is, in my view, something tasteless about people who desperately cling to the very act of breathing in their lives, when they approach the end (a sad example is Mme du Barry, guillotined during French Revolution: On 8 December 1793, Madame du Barry was beheaded by the guillotine on the Place de la Révolution (now the Place de la Concorde). On the way to the guillotine, she collapsed in the tumbrel and cried "You are going to hurt me! Why?!" Terrified, she screamed for mercy and begged the watching crowd for help. Her last words to the executioner are said to have been: «De grâce, monsieur le bourreau, encore un petit moment!» - "One more moment, Mr. Executioner, I beg you!" She was buried in the Madeleine Cemetery, like many other executed during the Terror—including Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. )

    Oh well.

    Mark Twain sounds, at least to me, very reasonable: I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

    Yet, many people desperately cling to unenviable remnants of their lives. Evidently, these matters are not about logical arguments, but are reducible to a person's whole personality, energy, identity,... Churchill was, I think, exhausted at the end & wanted to die, just to get rid of a dreary existence; so was Richard Feynman (although much younger).

    I get that most people would like to prolong, indefinitely, their lives. But, when I think of it- this is, basically, idiotic. Why would anyone, even if they could, by some magical trick, want to live, say, 300, 500 or 1000 years - even if always in their prime, the best of health & success in life? Considering how fast we process information, how we eat, sleep, defecate, react to this or that..our human life would be the ultimate horror were we to live 300 or 800 years. Most, I'm rather certain, would eventually commit suicide due to saturation & boredom.

    Death of children & young people hurt; but, death of old people is somehow "natural". And even physically & mentally well old men (women), at some point would say to themselves: It's time to go. Nothing holds me here anymore. I've had it enough.

    Whether this is just a poetic language (no one "goes" anywhere, he just ceases to be; or, there could be some extra-physical world where they, transformed, continue to "live" in- to us - unimaginable circumstances) is of secondary importance. Where Aristotle, Lucretius, Confucius & OT writers seem to agree is that they see death as natural & normal as birth, sleep, hunger or thirst, and to whine about it would be as meaningful as to rage against the fact that we have, as living beings, to sleep & eat.

    And even the most developed individuality, like Aristotle, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Newton, Bach, Gauss, Napoleon... would come to the point of: I've really, really had enough of this @%#!
  127. @Hail
    In line with Mr Mox's reply (Jack London, 1910s?), and Polynikes' reply (Blade Runner, 1980s), here is another:

    "Every man dies. Not every man really lives."

    -- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, Braveheart, 1990s
     

    This is a line that occurred to me, recently, in contemplating the (ongoing) CoronaPanic. Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time. But as Hank Williams Sr. once sang, "[We'll] never get out of this world alive." The point is to make something of the time we have.

    This is not a novel insight, and is pretty much a cliche, but it's worth saying directly in these times.

    The great religious thinkers have all dealt with this, and indeed maybe that is, in simple terms, the purpose of religion. More recently it has been the purpose of philosophy. In centuries past, our ancestors found great freedom in religion because it liberated us from fear of death.

    Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time.

    Indeed. There is very much to this notion. One book in particular that explores this topic is the mind-blowing “The Denial of Death” by Ernst Becker. Highly recommended.

  128. @Anonymous
    The Great Chloroquine War is heating up...

    The Empire is so lame so weak. It's disgusting fake news prostitutes, fedgov stooges, Big Pharma, PC status seeking left wing lunatics etc.

    The Rebels are awesome. Heroic people like md's Didier Raoult & Stephen Smith and so many other docs now. They're getting audited by IRS! Dirty dastardly tricks ...

    It's been Empire Strikes Back this week but it is a rotten empire just flailing in a flurry of stupid lies.

    HCQ+ZPAC+ZINC hit the Witch Corona hard and early first sign of symptoms. Then finish the bitch with ivermectin or equivalent yes it's avail at any feed store...

    The frontline hospital staff in USA has been quietly taking this stuff but they don't go public because there are gangster payback consequences if they do speak out...

    There’s definitely a push to discredit this 3-part therapy. Fauci, Birx, Gates, Eli Lilly, WHO, CDC, et al have a lot of money on the line and el cheapo remedies are NOT part of their plan. I’m sure doctors have gotten the message that their careers are on the line.

  129. @Polynikes
    Wisconsin DHS Secretary confirmed no spike in cases from the election.

    Do you have a link by any chance?
    I tried to look that up on Google and could not confirm what you reported.

  130. @anon
    I get it that you hate dogs, but how exactly is your dog going to infect you with CV? It's not unreasonable to suspect that the pathogen load associated with keeping pets helps train one's immune system. I'd love to see data on CV deaths in pet owners vs. lifelong germaphobes.

    Also, abolishing universal literacy would not help your chances of having intelligent conversation, thought it would cut down on nonsense on FB, Twitter, IG, Reddit etc.

    Many dog owners get really close and intimate with their dogs and inhale a lot of what is in their fur.

    And their fur is absolutely certain to carry a lot of wet germs from people who play with your dog, talk to your dog, talk or sneeze or cough near your dog, etc.

    Your dog (and I get that this will madden many people) is a mobile carrier of germs that you or others who get intimate with them will then pass along.

    This doesn’t mean that I hate dogs. I think it’s great to love and be loved by a stupid and simple animal. I’m serious. We humans are a lot more complicated than dogs. Apparently many people for whom a dog serves no functional purpose will cater to one for years on end, incouding carrying around their shit, as though they were the lowliest of Untouchables, enslaved to their DoGGod. I’m having fun mocking it but I’m also really serious about how great dogs happen to be. So great, that the electorate allows people to own them despite the fact that to everyone other than their owners thay are a barking nusaince. Society tolerates them as they tolerate babies and ice cream trucks because so many individuals love them.

    As for literacy, I’m not taking my suggestion too seriously but there is what to be said about how much more fruitful and pleasant conversation is when only the meritocratic ones can engage in it.

    Imagine HL Mencken comes back to life today and starts writing as he wills. How long will it be before he will be sufficiently threatened that he surrenders?

    The mob shouldn’t be treated like the cattle that Nietzsche sometimes says he would prefer for them, but certainly not as the sort of equals who get to watson people like Watson, Summers, Louis CK, or any of the other greats. No Great Man from the past could survive the twitteraties. TR? Twain? Any of the explorers?

    It is a sad thing that the masses can read and write. What they read they misunderstand and what they write is either sinpky a watse of space or a virus.

    Let them stay home getting boners with their dogs 😉

  131. @anon
    I get it that you hate dogs, but how exactly is your dog going to infect you with CV? It's not unreasonable to suspect that the pathogen load associated with keeping pets helps train one's immune system. I'd love to see data on CV deaths in pet owners vs. lifelong germaphobes.

    Also, abolishing universal literacy would not help your chances of having intelligent conversation, thought it would cut down on nonsense on FB, Twitter, IG, Reddit etc.

    Cats and ferrets are more susceptible than dogs. Oh, lions & tigers too, as the Bronx Zoo has just proved. What no one wants to consider is whether the felines can return the favor. Lots of denial on that one.

  132. @John Derbyshire
    Other side of the argument:

    For who to dumb Forgetfulness a prey,
    This pleasing anxious being e'er resign'd,
    Left the warm precincts of the cheerful day,
    Nor cast one longing, ling'ring look behind?
     
    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44299/elegy-written-in-a-country-churchyard

    Of course Internet forums are not places for lengthy discussions; of course, death is an inexhaustible subject. But, if we are to say anything about death & older people, and by older I mean over 80…

    Simply- there is no common response to it.

    Temperamentally, people may be indifferent to the idea of complete & total annihilation of their individual consciousness; and yet, many are frightened, utterly scared of the very idea. It is reasonable to be afraid of painful dying & of prolonged degradation, of psycho-physical disintegration, loss of personal dignity and humiliating decrepitude. There is, in my view, something tasteless about people who desperately cling to the very act of breathing in their lives, when they approach the end (a sad example is Mme du Barry, guillotined during French Revolution: On 8 December 1793, Madame du Barry was beheaded by the guillotine on the Place de la Révolution (now the Place de la Concorde). On the way to the guillotine, she collapsed in the tumbrel and cried “You are going to hurt me! Why?!” Terrified, she screamed for mercy and begged the watching crowd for help. Her last words to the executioner are said to have been: «De grâce, monsieur le bourreau, encore un petit moment!» – “One more moment, Mr. Executioner, I beg you!” She was buried in the Madeleine Cemetery, like many other executed during the Terror—including Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. )

    Oh well.

    Mark Twain sounds, at least to me, very reasonable: I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

    Yet, many people desperately cling to unenviable remnants of their lives. Evidently, these matters are not about logical arguments, but are reducible to a person’s whole personality, energy, identity,… Churchill was, I think, exhausted at the end & wanted to die, just to get rid of a dreary existence; so was Richard Feynman (although much younger).

    I get that most people would like to prolong, indefinitely, their lives. But, when I think of it- this is, basically, idiotic. Why would anyone, even if they could, by some magical trick, want to live, say, 300, 500 or 1000 years – even if always in their prime, the best of health & success in life? Considering how fast we process information, how we eat, sleep, defecate, react to this or that..our human life would be the ultimate horror were we to live 300 or 800 years. Most, I’m rather certain, would eventually commit suicide due to saturation & boredom.

    Death of children & young people hurt; but, death of old people is somehow “natural”. And even physically & mentally well old men (women), at some point would say to themselves: It’s time to go. Nothing holds me here anymore. I’ve had it enough.

    Whether this is just a poetic language (no one “goes” anywhere, he just ceases to be; or, there could be some extra-physical world where they, transformed, continue to “live” in- to us – unimaginable circumstances) is of secondary importance. Where Aristotle, Lucretius, Confucius & OT writers seem to agree is that they see death as natural & normal as birth, sleep, hunger or thirst, and to whine about it would be as meaningful as to rage against the fact that we have, as living beings, to sleep & eat.

    And even the most developed individuality, like Aristotle, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Newton, Bach, Gauss, Napoleon… would come to the point of: I’ve really, really had enough of this @%#!

    • Replies: @utu

    There is, in my view, something tasteless about people who desperately cling to the very act of breathing in their lives, when they approach the end (a sad example is Mme du Barry, guillotined during French Revolution
     
    Tasteless you say. You are such a pompous ass.
  133. @Bardon Kaldian
    Of course Internet forums are not places for lengthy discussions; of course, death is an inexhaustible subject. But, if we are to say anything about death & older people, and by older I mean over 80...

    Simply- there is no common response to it.

    Temperamentally, people may be indifferent to the idea of complete & total annihilation of their individual consciousness; and yet, many are frightened, utterly scared of the very idea. It is reasonable to be afraid of painful dying & of prolonged degradation, of psycho-physical disintegration, loss of personal dignity and humiliating decrepitude. There is, in my view, something tasteless about people who desperately cling to the very act of breathing in their lives, when they approach the end (a sad example is Mme du Barry, guillotined during French Revolution: On 8 December 1793, Madame du Barry was beheaded by the guillotine on the Place de la Révolution (now the Place de la Concorde). On the way to the guillotine, she collapsed in the tumbrel and cried "You are going to hurt me! Why?!" Terrified, she screamed for mercy and begged the watching crowd for help. Her last words to the executioner are said to have been: «De grâce, monsieur le bourreau, encore un petit moment!» - "One more moment, Mr. Executioner, I beg you!" She was buried in the Madeleine Cemetery, like many other executed during the Terror—including Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. )

    Oh well.

    Mark Twain sounds, at least to me, very reasonable: I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

    Yet, many people desperately cling to unenviable remnants of their lives. Evidently, these matters are not about logical arguments, but are reducible to a person's whole personality, energy, identity,... Churchill was, I think, exhausted at the end & wanted to die, just to get rid of a dreary existence; so was Richard Feynman (although much younger).

    I get that most people would like to prolong, indefinitely, their lives. But, when I think of it- this is, basically, idiotic. Why would anyone, even if they could, by some magical trick, want to live, say, 300, 500 or 1000 years - even if always in their prime, the best of health & success in life? Considering how fast we process information, how we eat, sleep, defecate, react to this or that..our human life would be the ultimate horror were we to live 300 or 800 years. Most, I'm rather certain, would eventually commit suicide due to saturation & boredom.

    Death of children & young people hurt; but, death of old people is somehow "natural". And even physically & mentally well old men (women), at some point would say to themselves: It's time to go. Nothing holds me here anymore. I've had it enough.

    Whether this is just a poetic language (no one "goes" anywhere, he just ceases to be; or, there could be some extra-physical world where they, transformed, continue to "live" in- to us - unimaginable circumstances) is of secondary importance. Where Aristotle, Lucretius, Confucius & OT writers seem to agree is that they see death as natural & normal as birth, sleep, hunger or thirst, and to whine about it would be as meaningful as to rage against the fact that we have, as living beings, to sleep & eat.

    And even the most developed individuality, like Aristotle, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Newton, Bach, Gauss, Napoleon... would come to the point of: I've really, really had enough of this @%#!

    There is, in my view, something tasteless about people who desperately cling to the very act of breathing in their lives, when they approach the end (a sad example is Mme du Barry, guillotined during French Revolution

    Tasteless you say. You are such a pompous ass.

  134. @guest007
    If 3000 to 5000 Americans were dying each day due to Covid-19, do you realy think that politicians would not panic.

    Adopting the Swedish way means more deaths per day which means and many more outbreaks in nursing homes. As it looks now, nursing homes and speciality nursing centers will probably be sued out of business. Image how many businesses will be sued out of business when they reopen while failing to protect workers and customers.

    The Trump Administration is trying to give business liability protection from Covi19 so that the biggest A-hole bosses will not be held responsible for being short sighted, bullies, and foolish.

    “Adopting the Swedish way means more deaths per day which means and many more outbreaks in nursing homes.”

    Particularly since nursing homes have been especially hard hit in Sweden. All that pretty talk about “protecting the vulnerable” seems to have been just Orwellian claptrap. And if doctors have come up with more effective ways of treating patients (e.g. fewer ventilators, more oxygenation) over the last few months, then some of those patients will have died in vain. Moreover, many of the carers (I hope someone who knows the situation will correct me on this if I’m mistaken) are immigrant shift-workers who don’t get the generous sick-leave that other Swedes do, which means that even if they have a cough, they’ll hope for the best and keep working because they need that paycheck. A little more time and effort might have gone a long way towards resolving that.

    HOWEVER (and there’s almost always a however in any such comparison) if the Swedes do reach herd immunity significantly sooner, maybe they can still come out ahead of the rest. I mean, there’s plenty of badly run nursing homes elsewhere that are also taking a hit. I wouldn’t rule it out.

  135. @Hail
    In line with Mr Mox's reply (Jack London, 1910s?), and Polynikes' reply (Blade Runner, 1980s), here is another:

    "Every man dies. Not every man really lives."

    -- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, Braveheart, 1990s
     

    This is a line that occurred to me, recently, in contemplating the (ongoing) CoronaPanic. Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time. But as Hank Williams Sr. once sang, "[We'll] never get out of this world alive." The point is to make something of the time we have.

    This is not a novel insight, and is pretty much a cliche, but it's worth saying directly in these times.

    The great religious thinkers have all dealt with this, and indeed maybe that is, in simple terms, the purpose of religion. More recently it has been the purpose of philosophy. In centuries past, our ancestors found great freedom in religion because it liberated us from fear of death.

    My grandfather, for the last 25 years of his life (he died at 97), used to say:

    “I don’t look forward to death with enthusiasm, but I do look forward to it with a certain amount of interest.”

    That struck a young TorontoTraveller as peculiar, but now that I am middle-aged, I see myself as being on track to reach the same perspective on the whole matter.

  136. @Hail
    In line with Mr Mox's reply (Jack London, 1910s?), and Polynikes' reply (Blade Runner, 1980s), here is another:

    "Every man dies. Not every man really lives."

    -- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, Braveheart, 1990s
     

    This is a line that occurred to me, recently, in contemplating the (ongoing) CoronaPanic. Some observers have said that the Panic is driven by people confronting their mortality, often for the first time. But as Hank Williams Sr. once sang, "[We'll] never get out of this world alive." The point is to make something of the time we have.

    This is not a novel insight, and is pretty much a cliche, but it's worth saying directly in these times.

    The great religious thinkers have all dealt with this, and indeed maybe that is, in simple terms, the purpose of religion. More recently it has been the purpose of philosophy. In centuries past, our ancestors found great freedom in religion because it liberated us from fear of death.

    I forget if it was Carroll Shelby or Ken Miles who replied to someone – probably a reporter – questioning or pontificating about the dangers of motor-car racing:

    “Well, I think these people need to get right with God.”

  137. @Peter Akuleyev
    But I’d like to see broader measures than just that one not very important industry.

    There are also good statistics showing that the Swedish restaurant industry has bottomed out, and common sense would tell you that tourism can't be thriving. Sweden is cheating, really - taking credit for being more open and liberal when the objective circumstances dictate that actual economic activity is hardly much different than in Germany. Sweden is an export driven country. If all the Ikeas in the rest of Europe are closed, that can't be great for Sweden. No one is buying Volvos in the rest of the world, no one needs refined petroleum (a major Swedish export), steel and paper sales are also sharply down. The only small economic advantage Sweden has is that retail shops can keep trading (although Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic have also started resuming retail sales) and you can get a haircut. Most people would probably point to schools being open as greater freedom, although that decision is ironically based in Swedish leftist thinking that under no circumstances can women be forced into traditional gender roles. The state must take the children, come what may.

    Were some superficial freedoms for a few months really worth several thousand excess deaths? In hindsight I suspect Sweden will end up being heavily criticized.

    “In hindsight I suspect Sweden will end up being heavily criticized.”

    Not by the “Sweden is champion of Western man” loons. They have too much anchor bias for that and they’ve had lots of practice coming up with rationalizations for their own failed past predictions. Remember, they still think Wittkovski is “right” despite the fact that he predicted only 10,000 would die from this. They just don’t care. And regardless of how high the death toll of this thing gets, it won’t faze them. For them, the days when hundreds of thousands died from smallpox and Hong Kong flu and polio and whatever, with no one bothering to do much of anything, were apparently a kind of Golden Age of manly Stoicism. I think that Overton window discrepancy is what fuels much of their rage and consternation — somehow, the world collectively became more “K” and less “r” when it comes to mass casualties, without anyone asking them for their permission.

    [MORE]

    That being said, the Swedes seem to have dodged the bullet on overwhelming the ICU’s and the people are OK with how their experts have handled this, just like they’re OK with their cradle-to-grave welfare state. Theirs was arguably a really risky approach, because it easily could have turned out differently given the uncertainty ranges, but after all, the choice was theirs to make. Yeah, they might have saved a fair number of the dead if their infections had been delayed just a little longer, so that doctors would have known to try ivermectin and plasma from recovered patients, or whatever else we’ve learned about just recently, but hey, different strokes, I say — that’s what borders are for.

    I will say that anyone who thinks that a country containing a city like New York will ever regard Sweden as having taken the “correct” approach is beyond reasoning, and I agree that Sweden will likely take some PR lumps because of that (and their newfound respect among many unz.com readers will, if anything, cause many SWEDES to have a few second thoughts). Their cheerleaders here won’t care, of course, but again, there’s no arguing with zealots like that. And I say that as someone who still thinks it quite possible that covid19 will ultimately be recognized as not much worse than a bad flu strain, though given the anchor bias on both sides, I’m guessing the final verdict on that is likely years away.

    I do still marvel how, on a website that is so worried about increasing statist control and intrusion, the Swedish government has come to be regarded by so many of the commentariat as a kind of model approach. I mean, talk about cures that wind up being worse than the disease. At least Tiny Duck had the sense to disappear after his “black men are too sexy to catch coronavirus” schtick blew up, but apparently there’s more than a few people here ready to fill his absence with let’s-all-be-more-like-Sweden agitprop.

  138. I do still marvel how, on a website that is so worried about increasing statist control and intrusion, the Swedish government has come to be regarded by so many of the commentariat as a kind of model approach.

    I’m not admiring then for their meatballs or their Socialism. I’m admiring them because they didn’t put their population under house arrest on flimsy speculation and then keep them there even as their original models proved false.

    My anchor bias is to the idea that the US is a free country. That’s why i still can’t get my head around what’s happened here. Absolutely insane.

    I hope a year from now once the shame about what we’ve done sets in there will be a vigorous effort on to repeal the emergency powers and public health laws that allowed this to happen.

    One thing notable from Sweden is that they don’t even have the power to order the house arrest and shutdown even if they wanted to (same with Japan apparently). It’s not clear that the American measures are all legal either, but the populace has bought into this so much that there has been virtually no legal challenges.

    These are strange days.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @HA
    "I’m not admiring then for their meatballs or their Socialism. I’m admiring them because they didn’t put their population under house arrest on flimsy speculation..."

    Ah, but as I noted earlier, that socialism is a big part of what allows them to do what they did, so it's foolish and/or hypocritical think you'll be able to have one without the other. I mean, back in those Glory Days of America I mentioned, when we could go about our business despite however many people were dropping dead in the streets, they were able to pack Germans and Japanese into holding camps, remember? And now you want to talk to me about "house arrest"? Aw, come on. They were also able to test syphilis on black men unaware of what was happening, and also turn college students like Kacsynski into LSD guinea pigs. So much for those Glory Days.

    That being the case, I'm not about to reach for the smelling salts when it comes to our current coronavirus restrictions. I mean, who's being a panicky Chicken Little now, really? (One other interesting fact, if I might digress: back in Typhoid Mary days, more people in NY were dying than being born from -- among other things -- all the dysentery and TB and other bugs and viruses floating around, which is a main reason why all that Ellis Island immigration was encouraged. But that's what a high "r", low "K" approach gets you. So be careful what you wish for.)

    Also, I would consult with someone in NY or Bergamo as to what constitutes "flimsy speculation". For that matter, try asking anyone from Wuhan (or else Israel or Russia or Singapore or any other state that I'm always hearing from people around here has the best interest of their citizens at heart, since many of them have managed to survive with similar or more restrictive lockdowns). And my reference to Sweden as the "champion of Western man" was a direct quote from one of the comments here. That kind of phrasing makes for a pretty broad statement, I think you'd agree, and not specifically limited to meatballs or hot blondes or whatever.

    I do agree with you that when anyone who wants to limit the government's role in our lives lavishes exultant praise on a cradle-to-grave socialist government like Sweden's (particularly one that no problem swapping out their "Western man" demographic for those coming in from farther afield). that makes for some strange days. I just wish those so effusive about Sweden were a bit more appreciative of the irony, and that they could, again, be a little more reflective about what it is they're actually wishing for, and that they could take off their rose-colored glasses when rhapsodizing about our blessedly carefree approach to epidemics.

  139. @Anonymous
    The Great Chloroquine War is heating up...

    The Empire is so lame so weak. It's disgusting fake news prostitutes, fedgov stooges, Big Pharma, PC status seeking left wing lunatics etc.

    The Rebels are awesome. Heroic people like md's Didier Raoult & Stephen Smith and so many other docs now. They're getting audited by IRS! Dirty dastardly tricks ...

    It's been Empire Strikes Back this week but it is a rotten empire just flailing in a flurry of stupid lies.

    HCQ+ZPAC+ZINC hit the Witch Corona hard and early first sign of symptoms. Then finish the bitch with ivermectin or equivalent yes it's avail at any feed store...

    The frontline hospital staff in USA has been quietly taking this stuff but they don't go public because there are gangster payback consequences if they do speak out...

    If these drugs work, sooner or later there will be reports of success from other countries. These are cheap and readily available compounds; there are thousands of infections world over. Any doctor worth a dime will give these a try just to see if it helps since there is no prescribed course of treatment. If there is meaningful success, the news will come out. Has there been any news from China, Iran, Brazil, Turkey or Mexico?

  140. @moshe
    Yeah, and I like it.

    I wish the whole thing would shatter to pieces and all of these binary or trinary political teams would fall apart completely.

    I see no reason whatsoever why a man can't be a serious Christian who opposes gun ownership, supports nordic socialist policies, opposes the death penalty, would vote for an atheist president, smokes weed and thinks that porn should be illegal.

    Why would such a fellow be considered either a madman, a genius or an eccentric instead of just...an American. A free man in a free land coming to his own conclusions - each of which is held by tens of millions of other Americans.

    I'd far rather speak to HIM about his reasoning than to someone whose opinions just so happen to align nearly perfectly with the full grab bag of whatever happens to be The (Republican/Democrat/Libertarian/Green) Party's Positions that particular decade.

    “I see no reason whatsoever why a man can’t be a serious Christian who opposes gun ownership, supports nordic socialist policies, opposes the death penalty, would vote for an atheist president, smokes weed and thinks that porn should be illegal.”

    That’s pretty close to NPR, if I may say so!

  141. @Reg Cæsar

    Apparently the show consulted with academic linguists to make the old Norse speakers authentic
     
    Or they could just have hired Icelanders and Faroese.

    Very trivial spoiler, but in the show they initially thought the Norsemen were Icelanders but the Icelandic interpreter had trouble understanding them also.

  142. @Thulean Friend
    So I live in Stockholm which is at the center of the epidemic in Sweden, and as Tegnell has indicated, Stockholm has either peaked in new infections or is in the process of doing so now. Of course, even if we had peaked a few days ago, it takes 6-10 days before the first cases show up in the ICUs so the strain on the health care system will only be shown in early May in such a scenario.

    That said, as I've commented on this blog previously, we have managed to keep a 20% of our ICU capacity for spare use in case of a sudden surge. We have continually added to our ICU capacity and Stockholm has now close to quadrupled from where it was just 6 weeks ago.

    A big problem in the now-infamous Imperial paper by Neil Ferguson et al that was responsible for the UK's 180 degree turnaround from a strategy very similar to ours to a panic-lockdown was that they didn't model for fast ICU capacity addition. But as we have shown, it is certainly possible. I do not wish to be mean, but we're not Italy. Our state capacity is much higher, so they just assumed everyone would be as unable to rapidly scale as Italy has failed to. Another issue is that we've kept the growth of the curve reasonably contained, so that we never had a massive acceleration like the Southern European countries did.

    Tom Britton, a mathematical professor at Stockholm University, estimates in his own private model that Stockholm will reach ~30% herd immunity by the end of this month. Folkhälsomyndigheten, our CDC where Tegnell is employed, has released their own model showing a 26% herd immunity in the capital by May 1st. You don't need to get to 50% herd immunity to see massive slowdown in infections. Even at 25-30% of the S-curve, you will see significant effects.

    We're now in the process of doing serological tests, and we will get the results within a few weeks, which should clarify matters further.

    Sweden's strategy has essentially been to frontload our deaths but to give us fast herd immunity while also giving time for the health care system to scale their ICU capacity. This is a hard strategy to accomplish but so far we've managed to do it without any major breakdowns like Italy, Spain etc.

    One word about the deaths in the elder care homes. Johan Giesecke, Mr Tegnell's predecessor, has stated that a major reason why this happened is because a lot of the people who work there are non-European, often refugees, and their Swedish is very limited so the recommendations never really got "through" to the same extent. Another factor is that Swedish elderly care homes are much bigger on average than e.g. Norwegians ones are. So if you get 5 homes infected in each country, you have many more patients and care workers infected in Sweden than you'd have in Norway.

    The language issue is also a reason why Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm despite being <3% of the population in late March. I've seen numbers showing 5-6X overrepresentation among Syrians and Iraqis, too. A lot of these communities have low Swedish media penetration and their own media often do little to no information on this at all.

    I don't think our approach has been perfect, however. For one thing, we have tested far fewer than Norway. Aside from the structural reasons around care homes (size + language barriers), the Norwegians also tested a lot more care workers early on, whereas our testing capacity has been bottlenecked for unexplained reasons. Tegnell has admitted that this has been a problem, but the solution is out of his hands. Most test labs are private or large research institutions run by their own organisations.

    That said, we've gone from 5K tests per week to 20K tests per week and we're now aiming for 50K tests by the end of this month. Next month we should hopefully reach 100K per week. Given this, I am actually surprised our daily new cases have not gone up much further, which indicates that the worst may be behind us (as Tom Britton suggested in his model).

    All in all, I've seen minimal disruption in my life. Life has gone on as usual here without much panic and it is quite pleasant.

    Good to see you’ve thought it through. BTW, Thule, how come you didn’t fight with us in the War of 1939-45?

  143. HA says:
    @vhrm

    I do still marvel how, on a website that is so worried about increasing statist control and intrusion, the Swedish government has come to be regarded by so many of the commentariat as a kind of model approach.
     
    I'm not admiring then for their meatballs or their Socialism. I'm admiring them because they didn't put their population under house arrest on flimsy speculation and then keep them there even as their original models proved false.

    My anchor bias is to the idea that the US is a free country. That's why i still can't get my head around what's happened here. Absolutely insane.

    I hope a year from now once the shame about what we've done sets in there will be a vigorous effort on to repeal the emergency powers and public health laws that allowed this to happen.

    One thing notable from Sweden is that they don't even have the power to order the house arrest and shutdown even if they wanted to (same with Japan apparently). It's not clear that the American measures are all legal either, but the populace has bought into this so much that there has been virtually no legal challenges.

    These are strange days.

    “I’m not admiring then for their meatballs or their Socialism. I’m admiring them because they didn’t put their population under house arrest on flimsy speculation…”

    Ah, but as I noted earlier, that socialism is a big part of what allows them to do what they did, so it’s foolish and/or hypocritical think you’ll be able to have one without the other. I mean, back in those Glory Days of America I mentioned, when we could go about our business despite however many people were dropping dead in the streets, they were able to pack Germans and Japanese into holding camps, remember? And now you want to talk to me about “house arrest”? Aw, come on. They were also able to test syphilis on black men unaware of what was happening, and also turn college students like Kacsynski into LSD guinea pigs. So much for those Glory Days.

    That being the case, I’m not about to reach for the smelling salts when it comes to our current coronavirus restrictions. I mean, who’s being a panicky Chicken Little now, really? (One other interesting fact, if I might digress: back in Typhoid Mary days, more people in NY were dying than being born from — among other things — all the dysentery and TB and other bugs and viruses floating around, which is a main reason why all that Ellis Island immigration was encouraged. But that’s what a high “r”, low “K” approach gets you. So be careful what you wish for.)

    [MORE]

    Also, I would consult with someone in NY or Bergamo as to what constitutes “flimsy speculation”. For that matter, try asking anyone from Wuhan (or else Israel or Russia or Singapore or any other state that I’m always hearing from people around here has the best interest of their citizens at heart, since many of them have managed to survive with similar or more restrictive lockdowns). And my reference to Sweden as the “champion of Western man” was a direct quote from one of the comments here. That kind of phrasing makes for a pretty broad statement, I think you’d agree, and not specifically limited to meatballs or hot blondes or whatever.

    I do agree with you that when anyone who wants to limit the government’s role in our lives lavishes exultant praise on a cradle-to-grave socialist government like Sweden’s (particularly one that no problem swapping out their “Western man” demographic for those coming in from farther afield). that makes for some strange days. I just wish those so effusive about Sweden were a bit more appreciative of the irony, and that they could, again, be a little more reflective about what it is they’re actually wishing for, and that they could take off their rose-colored glasses when rhapsodizing about our blessedly carefree approach to epidemics.

  144. (You should also know the difference between the declaration of Independence and the Constitution for that matter, for that matter, Lol)….

    It’s a shameful way for a people to think in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave (also not from the Constitution AKAHorace 😉 ).

    Fair point, although I am not American. I think though that if you want to keep it the Land of the Free etc you might remember the quote

    Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it

    I know that this is something that is much harder to measure, but it is more important. All the best and thank you for your polite reply.

  145. @AnotherDad

    “When it’s time to float off on the ice floe, it’s time”

    This conception worked just fine back when Old Swedes meant elderly Swedish people, and New Swedes meant the Swedish young. But of course, today’s New Swedes would like ALL of the Old Swedes to die off at once… except for de white wimminz, of course.
     
    Good point.

    Mass immigration destroys the inter-generational bonds in the nation. Since there is no actual nation anymore, it's pretty much "i'll get mine". People--with kids--care about their kids. But the nation's ... eh, whatever. Simple common sense, once you no longer live in a nation, but a marketplace.

    I'd gladly hop onto the ice floe, in exchange for hard end to immigration--illegals deported, no more immigration, no more "new Americans", only jus sanguinis, children of Americans. Wouldn't get us anywhere near back to the sanity of say 1960. But at least i'd die knowing that my children and their children and all their descendants were no longer under invasion, had a place to live and could with work recover and rebuild a nation. There would at least be ... hope.

    With the current regime continuing there is no hope--America is destined to get shittier and shittier until it's a completely shithole and no one else wants to come.

    “With the current regime continuing there is no hope–America is destined to get shittier and shittier until it’s a completely shithole and no one else wants to come.”

    Yeah, but when will that be? In thirty years? Forty years? A century from now? As many republics and democracies the world over have had at most a couple of centuries of existence, one could say that the US is living on borrowed time. The fact that we’ve made it this far and not collectively slipped off the ice floe is a testament to something.

  146. @Thulean Friend
    So I live in Stockholm which is at the center of the epidemic in Sweden, and as Tegnell has indicated, Stockholm has either peaked in new infections or is in the process of doing so now. Of course, even if we had peaked a few days ago, it takes 6-10 days before the first cases show up in the ICUs so the strain on the health care system will only be shown in early May in such a scenario.

    That said, as I've commented on this blog previously, we have managed to keep a 20% of our ICU capacity for spare use in case of a sudden surge. We have continually added to our ICU capacity and Stockholm has now close to quadrupled from where it was just 6 weeks ago.

    A big problem in the now-infamous Imperial paper by Neil Ferguson et al that was responsible for the UK's 180 degree turnaround from a strategy very similar to ours to a panic-lockdown was that they didn't model for fast ICU capacity addition. But as we have shown, it is certainly possible. I do not wish to be mean, but we're not Italy. Our state capacity is much higher, so they just assumed everyone would be as unable to rapidly scale as Italy has failed to. Another issue is that we've kept the growth of the curve reasonably contained, so that we never had a massive acceleration like the Southern European countries did.

    Tom Britton, a mathematical professor at Stockholm University, estimates in his own private model that Stockholm will reach ~30% herd immunity by the end of this month. Folkhälsomyndigheten, our CDC where Tegnell is employed, has released their own model showing a 26% herd immunity in the capital by May 1st. You don't need to get to 50% herd immunity to see massive slowdown in infections. Even at 25-30% of the S-curve, you will see significant effects.

    We're now in the process of doing serological tests, and we will get the results within a few weeks, which should clarify matters further.

    Sweden's strategy has essentially been to frontload our deaths but to give us fast herd immunity while also giving time for the health care system to scale their ICU capacity. This is a hard strategy to accomplish but so far we've managed to do it without any major breakdowns like Italy, Spain etc.

    One word about the deaths in the elder care homes. Johan Giesecke, Mr Tegnell's predecessor, has stated that a major reason why this happened is because a lot of the people who work there are non-European, often refugees, and their Swedish is very limited so the recommendations never really got "through" to the same extent. Another factor is that Swedish elderly care homes are much bigger on average than e.g. Norwegians ones are. So if you get 5 homes infected in each country, you have many more patients and care workers infected in Sweden than you'd have in Norway.

    The language issue is also a reason why Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm despite being <3% of the population in late March. I've seen numbers showing 5-6X overrepresentation among Syrians and Iraqis, too. A lot of these communities have low Swedish media penetration and their own media often do little to no information on this at all.

    I don't think our approach has been perfect, however. For one thing, we have tested far fewer than Norway. Aside from the structural reasons around care homes (size + language barriers), the Norwegians also tested a lot more care workers early on, whereas our testing capacity has been bottlenecked for unexplained reasons. Tegnell has admitted that this has been a problem, but the solution is out of his hands. Most test labs are private or large research institutions run by their own organisations.

    That said, we've gone from 5K tests per week to 20K tests per week and we're now aiming for 50K tests by the end of this month. Next month we should hopefully reach 100K per week. Given this, I am actually surprised our daily new cases have not gone up much further, which indicates that the worst may be behind us (as Tom Britton suggested in his model).

    All in all, I've seen minimal disruption in my life. Life has gone on as usual here without much panic and it is quite pleasant.

    Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm

    That is amazing. Is there an official source for this?

    • Replies: @res
    Not 50%, but this says at least 6 of 15 on 3/24.
    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7437072

    Keep in mind that this fits in well with the media narrative of "world ends, minorities and women hardest hit" so should probably be treated with caution.

    This 4/17 article is vaguer (i.e. the actual numbers probably do not fit the narrative quite so well).
    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/swedish-coronavirus-no-lockdown-model-proves-lethal-by-hans-bergstrom-2020-04

    After years of extremely high immigration from Africa and the Middle East, 25% of Sweden’s population – 2.6 million of a total population of 10.2 million – is of recent non-Swedish descent. The share is even higher in the Stockholm region. Immigrants from Somalia, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan are highly overrepresented among COVID-19 deaths. This has been attributed partly to a lack of information in immigrants’ languages. But a more important factor seems to be the housing density in some immigrant-heavy suburbs, enhanced by closer physical proximity between generations.
     
  147. Anonymous[146] • Disclaimer says:

    Just as those who genuinely want to stop AGW must support nuclear power, those who genuinely want to stop abortion ( as opposed to be seen railing against it) must support sterilizing the stupid, irresponsible, and criminal.

    Pay women under 85 IQ to get their tubes tied, as much as it takes. Castrate convicted violent criminal males.

  148. @Hail

    Somalians were ~50% of deaths in Stockholm
     
    That is amazing. Is there an official source for this?

    Not 50%, but this says at least 6 of 15 on 3/24.
    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7437072

    Keep in mind that this fits in well with the media narrative of “world ends, minorities and women hardest hit” so should probably be treated with caution.

    This 4/17 article is vaguer (i.e. the actual numbers probably do not fit the narrative quite so well).
    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/swedish-coronavirus-no-lockdown-model-proves-lethal-by-hans-bergstrom-2020-04

    After years of extremely high immigration from Africa and the Middle East, 25% of Sweden’s population – 2.6 million of a total population of 10.2 million – is of recent non-Swedish descent. The share is even higher in the Stockholm region. Immigrants from Somalia, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan are highly overrepresented among COVID-19 deaths. This has been attributed partly to a lack of information in immigrants’ languages. But a more important factor seems to be the housing density in some immigrant-heavy suburbs, enhanced by closer physical proximity between generations.

  149. @Reg Cæsar
    The tall blond is the Swede, the short one, the Finn.

    "Never lend your Borzoi to a friend." --Alfred A Knopf

    (The plural is борзые, by the way.)


    Salukis have been known to be harmful to children.

    what about Silken Windhounds?

  150. @Maciano
    Interesting to see so many Sweden fans here. I see another act of unnecessary self-harm. Like these zombie blondes always do.

    Clearly, letting a deadly virus like SARS2 run its course is insane. I’ll wait another year until we see the final score.

    Idiots are free to claim victory until then.

    Then you should have waited until next year to post instead of name calling now.

  151. @Ron Unz


    Sweden had the luxury of claiming it was neutral, even though Germany would have invaded it anyway if it could have got past Denmark and Norway quickly.
     
    Huh? It did get past Denmark and Norway quickly. Germany conquered Denmark in about a day, and Norway inside of two months.
     
    Actually, "Thomm" is an exceptionally ignorant (probably Hindu) troll. I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren't considered white in America. He also always claims to be "a native-born white American"...

    I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren’t considered white in America.

    False. I never said that. You never provide a link to your bogus claims, I see.

    Plus, even on the topic at hand, I am correct. The German invasion of Norway/Denmark took two months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weser%C3%BCbung

    Oh, and Ron Unz knows that I am not a South Asian. He has admitted it in the past. He sporadically encourages that narrative to distract readers away from the true purpose of this website.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    While remote, mountainous Norway was a tougher nut to crack, the German invasion of Denmark on April 9, 1940 lasted 4 hours before the last Dane troops laid down their arms:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(1940)

    Denmark's military forces were inferior in numbers and equipment, and after a short battle were forced to surrender. After fewer than two hours of struggle, the Danish Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning stopped the opposition to the German attack, for fear that the Germans would bomb Copenhagen, as they had done with Warsaw during the invasion of Poland in September 1939. Due to communication difficulties, some Danish forces continued to fight, but after a further two hours, all opposition had stopped.

    Lasting approximately four hours, the German ground campaign against Denmark was one of the shortest military operations of the Second World War.[9]

  152. @Thomm

    I think he spent a long time claiming that until the 1960s, Polish people weren’t considered white in America.
     
    False. I never said that. You never provide a link to your bogus claims, I see.

    Plus, even on the topic at hand, I am correct. The German invasion of Norway/Denmark took two months.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weser%C3%BCbung


    Oh, and Ron Unz knows that I am not a South Asian. He has admitted it in the past. He sporadically encourages that narrative to distract readers away from the true purpose of this website.

    While remote, mountainous Norway was a tougher nut to crack, the German invasion of Denmark on April 9, 1940 lasted 4 hours before the last Dane troops laid down their arms:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(1940)

    Denmark’s military forces were inferior in numbers and equipment, and after a short battle were forced to surrender. After fewer than two hours of struggle, the Danish Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning stopped the opposition to the German attack, for fear that the Germans would bomb Copenhagen, as they had done with Warsaw during the invasion of Poland in September 1939. Due to communication difficulties, some Danish forces continued to fight, but after a further two hours, all opposition had stopped.

    Lasting approximately four hours, the German ground campaign against Denmark was one of the shortest military operations of the Second World War.[9]

    • Replies: @Thomm
    Denmark was much easier than Norway, for obvious reasons. The Nazis had far more difficulty with anything that didn't share a land border with them.

    But the total occupation took two months, and more importantly, Germany never managed to invade Sweden.
    , @Joe Stalin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU_H68E26iA
  153. @Steve Sailer
    While remote, mountainous Norway was a tougher nut to crack, the German invasion of Denmark on April 9, 1940 lasted 4 hours before the last Dane troops laid down their arms:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(1940)

    Denmark's military forces were inferior in numbers and equipment, and after a short battle were forced to surrender. After fewer than two hours of struggle, the Danish Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning stopped the opposition to the German attack, for fear that the Germans would bomb Copenhagen, as they had done with Warsaw during the invasion of Poland in September 1939. Due to communication difficulties, some Danish forces continued to fight, but after a further two hours, all opposition had stopped.

    Lasting approximately four hours, the German ground campaign against Denmark was one of the shortest military operations of the Second World War.[9]

    Denmark was much easier than Norway, for obvious reasons. The Nazis had far more difficulty with anything that didn’t share a land border with them.

    But the total occupation took two months, and more importantly, Germany never managed to invade Sweden.

  154. @Steve Sailer
    While remote, mountainous Norway was a tougher nut to crack, the German invasion of Denmark on April 9, 1940 lasted 4 hours before the last Dane troops laid down their arms:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(1940)

    Denmark's military forces were inferior in numbers and equipment, and after a short battle were forced to surrender. After fewer than two hours of struggle, the Danish Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning stopped the opposition to the German attack, for fear that the Germans would bomb Copenhagen, as they had done with Warsaw during the invasion of Poland in September 1939. Due to communication difficulties, some Danish forces continued to fight, but after a further two hours, all opposition had stopped.

    Lasting approximately four hours, the German ground campaign against Denmark was one of the shortest military operations of the Second World War.[9]

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