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The Rise and Fall of Serial Killers
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With mass killing shootings in the news, I’d like to point out that not all bad things are destined to increase forever. For instance, according to the Radford University Database of known serial killers, the number of serial killers soared during the what Robert Heinlein predicted c. 1940 would be known as the Crazy Years (1960s-1970s) before declining more recently.

One thing to keep in mind is that some of the sharp decline is due to the rule that the serial killer must be caught before being counted. Sometimes it can take decades to catch a cautious killer, as seen in the recent arrest of some old time serial killers betrayed by relatives publishing their DNA online, such as the Golden State Killer (active 1974-1986). So, the decline is partly an artifact of that.

On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.

It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.

It’s also hard to say what caused the decline over the last generation. It could be that serial killing became less appealing to the handful of sickos attracted to doing it.

Or it could be fear of being caught increased. According to Bill James, cops were long particularly bad at catching serial killers because they’d been trained not to fall for the idea that somebody was murdered by a random stranger: instead, it had to be somebody who knew the victim, an ex-boyfriend or the like. So if they had five dead women on their hands, they tended to look for five separate killers. This had been a fairly productive prejudice, since it kept them from going down the wrong path most of the time. But the huge publicity attendant to Ted Bundy c. 1980 forced cops to get serious about the serial killer phenomenon. (This means that some of the pre-1980 serial killers might have been missed for this graph.)

Nowadays, we have lots of TV shows about supergenius scientific detectives using their high tech labs to catch serial killers, which might serve to deter would-be serial killers, who, unlike mass killing shooters, want to get away with their crimes.

In contrast, a lot of current true crime murder shows, both documentary and acted-out documentary (Renée Zellweger’s The Thing About Pam), devote themselves these days to murders over rather small life insurance policies.

In summary, not everything bad increases forever.

 
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  1. Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    • Replies: @dearieme
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    Non-Steve here: I wonder whether the Covid jabs have buggered up so many people's immune systems that all sorts of infectious diseases are going to have a field day.

    One clue will be to see whether the unvaccinated (versus the Wuhan virus) are less troubled by other viruses than the multi-vaccinated. There will be confounders to worry about, as there always are with observational data, but the signal might be so strong as to be unmistakeable.

    Time will tell.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @al gore rhythms
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    Let's get Monkeypox Over and Through in '22.

    Fun fact: According to leading Western military analysts, every time someone takes their monkeypox vaccine triple-booster a Russian soldier dies a slow and painful death.

    , @Alden
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    About the anus and intestines. The lining is only one cell thick. So nutrition passing through can be absorbed And on the other side are receptor cells that grab every bit of nutrition passing by and process the food. Until syringes came along in the 20th century lots of medicines were administered rectally rather than orally because absorption was so fast.

    Condoms are useless against viruses. All they do is contain semen. Hopefully

    Lining of the vagina in contrast is about 28 cells thick. It’s like a fan belt. Layers going vertical horizontal and diagonal. Designed to stretch. And bathed in a continual anti septic fluid. Every medic learned this. And yet they babble about safe anal sex.

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    Lion, you need to start posting here again.

    , @Lurker
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    It will just end up proving how stunning and brave gays are while the rest of us will have to take it up the arse.

  2. I hate to say it (and it’s probably wrong, anyway) but I wonder sometimes if one of the few benefits of our society’s slide into Sodom & Gomorrah might be the decline of certain kinds of serial killers. Less sexual repression/shame due to more acceptance, nay, rock star status/power/social currency for deviant behaviors. The more deviant, the more officially heroic. Just a thought.

    • Agree: Patrick in SC
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @JimDandy

    The idea that historically normative sexual morality was actually deeply unhealthy, and somehow led directly to wanting to torture women to death, is 100% Hollywood/nationwrecker self-serving nonsense to justify pornography. It is like the idea that racists are jealous of blacks. It never had any basis in fact and there are a raft of claims of highly "liberated" people being enormously physically abusive toward women.

    American pastor in Haiti who ran an orphanage (as well as a body piercing shop) caught diddling the liddles in March; some anon has done yeoman work putting this together:
    https://i.postimg.cc/59DtynY9/1653507295200.jpg

    Replies: @Corn, @JimDandy

  3. anonymous[133] • Disclaimer says:

    Law enforcement was shockingly incompetent/unprepared. It’s mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught.

    Or the major one in Texas where nobody even noticed for a while.

    Or Gacy.

    You couldn’t get away with shit like that now.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @anonymous


    It’s mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught...

    You couldn’t get away with 💩 like that now.
     

    Some think "the GSK" is still at it:


    GSK 'schemed' FDA's drug-device approval pathway to deflect asthma inhaler generics, lawsuit claims

    Lawsuits Galore: J&J, BMS, GSK, Mylan and Others


    Speaking of lawsuits and responsibility to pay in general, how wrong is Thom Hartmann (who is good on the medical fraud known as ADHD, but little else) in this piece? Why wouldn't insurance pay a claim in either crime?


    Think about it: if Adam Lanza had murdered those kids at Sandy Hook by mowing them down in the street with his mom’s SUV, their families would have gotten $1 million each from Geico (for example). But because he killed them with a gun, they got nothing; even survivors of mass shootings and “accidents” get nothing for medical bills.

    https://hartmannreport.com/p/will-this-finally-be-the-time-republicans?s=r
     

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Wielgus
    @anonymous

    When one of Dean Corll's last victims disappeared, his mother went to the police in Texas and was not taken seriously. They assumed he had just run away from home. Although his mother said nobody does that wearing only swimming trunks and with no more than 50 cents.

    , @Marquis
    @anonymous

    One reason the GSK/EARONS wasn't caught earlier was because through his first dozen rapes/ransackings he wasn't even considered the biggest serial rapist in the area. There were a couple other ones doing similar things. I think one was called the Early Morning Rapist.

    That sort of goes to Steve's point that the late 60's through the 70's produced a lot of this type of activity.

    I think the decline of serial killers it two-fold. The rise of DNA making it easier to track them. And the tougher on crime era. If you look through 70's era serial killers on wikipedia it is shocking how many had been caught for rape, sexual assault, assault, attempted murder, etc.. and served 2-4 yrs somewhere and then got released. Sound familiar?

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  4. The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    • Replies: @Stillderswine
    @Achmed E. Newman

    "The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?"

    You need to read that Steven Pinker "Better Angels of our Natures" book like 4 times, I literally have, mostly because I pirate audiobooks and listen to them while shopping, driving, biking, working and gaming. Even Steve doesn't seem quite keyed in, and it's an 800 page book, maybe he hasn't read it, not the craziest idea, but I just can't take people seriously, really, on some level, until they've internalized it. 25% chance dying by human-on-human violence in prehistory (why everyone is obsessed with it,) none of even hardcore race realist theorist shit suggests blacks are more violent because of that (humans are "naturally" 100 times more violent,) etc.etc.--2011 book, "maybe don't suggest the police are invalid authorities" obvious notion therein.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @SafeNow
    @Achmed E. Newman


    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?
     
    Yes, right now.

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Joan Didion, writing about Norman Mailer’s “The Executioner’s Song” and Gary Gilmore’s popularity, called it America’s propensity to embrace the “the con style.”

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @SafeNow
    @Achmed E. Newman


    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?
     
    Yes, right now.

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Joan Didion, writing about Norman Mailer’s “The Executioner’s Song” and Gary Gilmore’s popularity, called it America’s propensity to embrace the “the con style.”
  5. America’s most prolific serial killer was a black working class man named Samuel Little (1940-2020). He was very cunning, and probably highly intelligent.

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Guest29048


    He was very cunning, and probably highly intelligent.
     
    He probably had a 100+ IQ. One of the reasons he might've gotten away with it for so long is he just didn't fit the description of what most cops think a serial killer looks like.
  6. “In summary, not everything bad increases forever.”

    While perhaps not increasing, perhaps bad things simply go in different directions.

  7. @Achmed E. Newman
    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    Replies: @Stillderswine, @SafeNow, @SafeNow

    “The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?”

    You need to read that Steven Pinker “Better Angels of our Natures” book like 4 times, I literally have, mostly because I pirate audiobooks and listen to them while shopping, driving, biking, working and gaming. Even Steve doesn’t seem quite keyed in, and it’s an 800 page book, maybe he hasn’t read it, not the craziest idea, but I just can’t take people seriously, really, on some level, until they’ve internalized it. 25% chance dying by human-on-human violence in prehistory (why everyone is obsessed with it,) none of even hardcore race realist theorist shit suggests blacks are more violent because of that (humans are “naturally” 100 times more violent,) etc.etc.–2011 book, “maybe don’t suggest the police are invalid authorities” obvious notion therein.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Stillderswine

    So... things were worse in the cave man days? That's your point?

  8. One thing to keep in mind is that some of the sharp decline is due to the rule that the serial killer must be caught before being counted.

    He has to be caught before being counted (usually), but he (or she) has to kill enough people before being caught. The odds of being caught after each murder have gone way up, thanks to cameras, DNA fingerprinting etc. If the odds of getting away with murder are 1/2 of what they were 40-50 years ago, then the odds of getting away with five murders are 1/32 of what they were then. So a lot of serial killers are getting caught before they get to their second or third murder.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Wilkey

    > The odds of being caught after each murder have gone way up... So a lot of serial killers are getting caught before they get to their second or third murder.

    On the whole, yes. But not in places like Rust Belt City.

    , @David
    @Wilkey

    In 1965, America's murder closure rate was just over 90%. In 2020, it was just under 55%.

    But I still think there's truth in what you're saying. As Steve has pointed out, the police can solve almost any crime if they want to invest enough time and effort.

  9. @anonymous
    Law enforcement was shockingly incompetent/unprepared. It's mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught.

    Or the major one in Texas where nobody even noticed for a while.

    Or Gacy.


    You couldn't get away with shit like that now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Wielgus, @Marquis

    It’s mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught…

    You couldn’t get away with 💩 like that now.

    Some think “the GSK” is still at it:

    GSK ‘schemed’ FDA’s drug-device approval pathway to deflect asthma inhaler generics, lawsuit claims

    Lawsuits Galore: J&J, BMS, GSK, Mylan and Others

    Speaking of lawsuits and responsibility to pay in general, how wrong is Thom Hartmann (who is good on the medical fraud known as ADHD, but little else) in this piece? Why wouldn’t insurance pay a claim in either crime?

    Think about it: if Adam Lanza had murdered those kids at Sandy Hook by mowing them down in the street with his mom’s SUV, their families would have gotten \$1 million each from Geico (for example). But because he killed them with a gun, they got nothing; even survivors of mass shootings and “accidents” get nothing for medical bills.

    https://hartmannreport.com/p/will-this-finally-be-the-time-republicans?s=r

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Reg Cæsar

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @kaganovitch, @That Would Be Telling

  10. @Reg Cæsar
    @anonymous


    It’s mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught...

    You couldn’t get away with 💩 like that now.
     

    Some think "the GSK" is still at it:


    GSK 'schemed' FDA's drug-device approval pathway to deflect asthma inhaler generics, lawsuit claims

    Lawsuits Galore: J&J, BMS, GSK, Mylan and Others


    Speaking of lawsuits and responsibility to pay in general, how wrong is Thom Hartmann (who is good on the medical fraud known as ADHD, but little else) in this piece? Why wouldn't insurance pay a claim in either crime?


    Think about it: if Adam Lanza had murdered those kids at Sandy Hook by mowing them down in the street with his mom’s SUV, their families would have gotten $1 million each from Geico (for example). But because he killed them with a gun, they got nothing; even survivors of mass shootings and “accidents” get nothing for medical bills.

    https://hartmannreport.com/p/will-this-finally-be-the-time-republicans?s=r
     

    Replies: @JimDandy

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @JimDandy


    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?
     
    A teppanyaki mass killing would be fascinating to watch.
    , @kaganovitch
    @JimDandy

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Considering that Ginsu has always been made in the USA, not likely. Considering further that it is ultimately owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway, the plaintiff's bar might nevertheless be tempted.

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @JimDandy


    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?
     
    Heh, but Remington's bankruptcy was due to (((private equity))) looting including a sharp drop in the already dubious quality of their products. They also all but completely missed out on the wave of handgun purchases for ever better concealed carry regimes in the states, they made a M1911 version but that wouldn't earn much and very late in the game tried to revive a compact and stylish old gun model of their's but the copies for sale to mere citizens were garbage compared to what they sent out to the (corrupt anyway) gun press.

    The settlement recently made for Sandy Hook was by one or more insurance companies holding the bag of the old defunct corporation, which they may well regret as we hear a lawsuit is being filed about the Buffalo shooting on the same sorts of grounds. As it is, "Biden" is being at least a bit smart in going after the gun manufacturing and sales part of the ecosystem instead of getting bad press from the ATF murderizing gun owners and gun store owners like they did starting in the early 1970s after the Nixon sugar price supports put an end to industrial scale moonshine production.
  11. With regard to serial killers and their heyday, the sexual revolution was their time to make hay while the sun shone. It wasn’t considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they’d just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)

    Through the 1970s and into the 1980s, the FBI and other law enforcement started putting the data together that identified serial murder as a phenomenon (including the term “serial killer,” invented by an FBI profiler). Word got around that strangers could mean danger to young women or children (the 1981 murder of Adam Walsh was another key case raising public awareness). And eventually, going off alone with strangers became something restricted mostly to prostitutes and homosexuals (still prime targets for serial killers).

    One way to look at “white guy” “pseudocommando”-style mass killing is that it’s effectively a type of “suicide with an entourage.” (Suicide is nearly as overwhelmingly prevalent among white males as homicide is among black males.) Interventions or policies that address suicide may pay off in arresting the mass killer trend.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Thomas


    It wasn’t considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they’d just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)
     
    They didn't go off with him for sexual reasons, but out of charity. He was wearing a fake cast and asked them for help. Bundy used that ruse often. Many of his victims became victims because they were sweet, trusting young women.

    At least Bundy did eventually fry, although that evil creep deserved to get electrocuted many times over.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    , @Feryl
    @Thomas

    Another big change is that the population has aged a lot over the last 30 years. Fewer young people= less risk taking. In addition, the generations born since roughly 1975 spent their whole lives in the Moral Majority/stranger danger era in which their was a backlash to the free-wheeling youth culture of the 60's and 70's. So these generation tend to have their guard up. I think that due to rising inequality levels it will be a long time, if ever, before people can relax again. There just is very little social capital or trust in America these days.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Thomas


    One way to look at “white guy” “pseudocommando”-style mass killing is that it’s effectively a type of “suicide with an entourage.”
     
    "Suicide by cop" is definitely a thing, and Massad Ayoob in the first decade of the century tallied up a few cases of suicide by legally armed citizen, that is where the perp knew the citizen was armed.
  12. On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.

    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.

    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker’s book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn’t spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What’s remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America’s courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn’t waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Pincher Martin


    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt.
     
    For me, the "Silence..." was unconvincing from the beginning. Murderous sadist with such IQ & personality traits would never go into cannibalism, but - politics.
    "The Town That Dreaded Sundown" is more watchable now (no psychoanalysis, no unbelievable psycho stuff, no pseudo-philosophy,..).

    Regarding serial killers, I find perhaps the most intriguing case of the Cleveland killer, who destroyed the career of Eliott Ness of Al Capone fame.

    Then, a notable thing is that, globally, Mestizo Hispanics are the most prolific serial killers & sometimes they just walk free after some time....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_number_of_victims
    ........................................

    Pedro López

    Number of victims: 110 to 300+

    Child-murderer and rapist, known as "The Monster of the Andes". López targeted young girls, between the ages of eight and twelve. Arrested in 1980 and convicted in 1983 of killing three young girls, but claimed to have killed hundreds. Despite being believed to be one of the most prolific serial killers of the twentieth century, he was released in the late 1990s.
    ..................................
    Pedro Rodrigues Filho

    Number of victims: 71 to 100+

    Rodrigues Filho claimed to have killed over 100 victims, 47 of them inmates. He also killed his father and ate a piece of his heart. He killed his first two victims at the age of 14. He was first arrested in 1973; he was convicted and sentenced to 128 years, but the maximum one can serve in Brazil is 30 years. He was released in 2018.

    , @TWS
    @Pincher Martin

    The sixties to eighties rise in crime is entirely due to the liberal courts.

    Miranda was guilty.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @kaganovitch
    @Pincher Martin

    that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    The Nader stuff was always B.S. but the rest of it seems to have made a strong comeback.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Pincher Martin


    But on the whole courts back then got it right.
     
    Probably because the 60s were the key decade when society began going soft in the head on criminals.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    , @Gabe Ruth
    @Pincher Martin

    Was thinking yesterday that in cases where they don’t get killed, standard procedure for school shooters should be the families of the victims lynch him that day. Or draw and quarter him, let’s encourage creativity and regional particularity.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms

  13. Anon[341] • Disclaimer says:

    Serial killers have been around for a long time. Just read about H. H. Holmes. Jack the Rippers isn’t modern. Albert Fish was one of the craziest guys I’ve ever read about, inserting almost 30 needles all the way into himself for the fun of it besides killing children.

    Before the modern era there were a fair number of killers who targeted travelers, robbing and murdering them to hide the evidence.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Anon


    Serial killers have been around for a long time.
     
    The Cleveland Torso murderer is one of the creepiest pre-WW2 US serial killers.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer
    , @duncsbaby
    @Anon

    My favorite 19th century serial murder story is a serial murdering family: The Bloody Benders.

    The Bender family, more popularly known as the Bloody Benders, were a family of serial killers who lived and operated in Labette County, Kansas, United States, from May 1871 to December 1872.The family consisted of John Bender, his wife Elvira and their son John Jr. and daughter Kate. While popular retelling of the story holds that John Jr. and Kate were siblings, contemporary newspapers reported that several of the Benders' neighbors had stated that they claimed to be married, possibly in a common law marriage.

    While there is no definitive number, estimates report that the Benders killed at least a dozen travelers before their crimes were discovered. The fate of the family remains unknown, with theories ranging from a lynching of the family to a successful escape. Much folklore and legend surrounds the Benders, making it difficult to separate fact from fiction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Benders

  14. Americans are less trusting of strangers today. People like Ted Ted Bundy would not be able to convince young girls to help him, especially wearing a fake cast….Also far fewer street prostitutes to pick up. Hard to believe what is was like on the streets of most cities back in the 70s and 80s when there were hundreds of street walkers on the streets looking for John’s every night in the typical American city. A significant number of serial killers targeted street whores , which have almost vanished from city streets today. Do they still have street walkers in NYC today? Even Atlantic City no longer has street walkers. Back in the 1980’s there were about 100 girls strolling along Pacific Ave each night in front of all the hotels walking back and forth looking for clients. My biggest memory from my first trip to AC in 1982 when I was 12 was seeing all the prostitutes walking the streets. While stopped at a red light a girl flashed her tits at me and my dad.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco


    My biggest memory from my first trip to AC in 1982 when I was 12 was seeing all the prostitutes walking the streets. While stopped at a red light a girl flashed her tits at me and my dad.
     
    Lol, that's my age 8ish memory from NYC in the 1970s. Except I think she was targeting the guy in the car behind us. We were just collateral damage.
  15. If autism is a near pure expression of the male brain, most serial killing seems to be a distilled expression of the male libido – it’s predatory to the extreme insofar as the actor not only stalks and acquires but kills the object of his sexual desire. It’s a repeat compulsion, like a fetish or other sexual perversion, rather than a one-time thing like mass shootings. Bundy, Ramirez, Gacy and Dahmer seem to fit here. I would dare say that serial killing is a sexual orientation of sorts. I wouldn’t expect to see it on the Pride flag and an “S” added to the Alphabet string any time soon though.

    I wonder therefore whether the average American male’s diminished free testosterone is partially responsible for the abatement in serial killers. Going out prepared to track a victim, ambush and subdue the victim, then move, rape, kill and surreptitiously dispose of the remains is a pretty butch thing to do. You really need a lot of “get up and go,” and some good planning skills. With lower testosterone and access to the internet it is possible that these guys would have been content to just sit home and masturbate to weird pornography and never try to act out their sexual fantasies with other human beings.

    Of course, ubiquitous modern surveillance makes the risk/reward calculus that much more perilous for would-be serial killers. Add to that that everyone has a smart phone which pings off of numerous cell towers as it travels, and young people who would be the most likely victims are in constant text communication with friends and family members, constantly updating their whereabouts and activities. Gacy got caught because he became increasingly careless, including releasing one kidnapping and rape victim, and offering construction work to his final victim at a drug store where he had come to talk to the owner about estimated costs of construction work. The boy told his coworker that he was going outside to talk to the contractor (Gacy) about work, and the boy disappeared and didn’t return for his mother’s birthday party. It was a simple matter of tracing that connection to him that led to his arrest. Now, it’d be like that times ten, since there’d be text message chains documenting where he was going and what he was doing.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  16. Just saw a French policeman who was also a serial killer movie – 1978.

  17. Most male serial killers are sexual sadists. I expect that internet porn gives some of these guys a less violent outlet for their urges.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  18. @Achmed E. Newman
    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    Replies: @Stillderswine, @SafeNow, @SafeNow

    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    Yes, right now.

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Joan Didion, writing about Norman Mailer’s “The Executioner’s Song” and Gary Gilmore’s popularity, called it America’s propensity to embrace the “the con style.”

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @SafeNow


    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”
     
    Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?
  19. @Achmed E. Newman
    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    Replies: @Stillderswine, @SafeNow, @SafeNow

    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?

    Yes, right now.

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Joan Didion, writing about Norman Mailer’s “The Executioner’s Song” and Gary Gilmore’s popularity, called it America’s propensity to embrace the “the con style.”

  20. Previously, Steve had speculated if men with a serial-killer disposition, realizing that it’s a lot harder to get away with now, switched over to mass-murder. Sort of a “speed-serial-killing”. That might at least explain the ones who survive their murderous rampage.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Mr. Anon

    I agree.
    Who's got the time nowadays's to be a serial killer?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @Feryl
    @Mr. Anon

    I would note that a substantial chunk of spree killers aren't old enough to legally drink, whereas early scholar of serial killers Robert Ressler said that most serial killers began as prowling burglars, voyeurs, and flashers in their teens, escalate to rape as young adults, then escalate to murder in their late 20's and 30's. Spree killers tend to be either alienated young misfits who snap, or are middle aged people venting years of despair.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  21. @Thomas
    With regard to serial killers and their heyday, the sexual revolution was their time to make hay while the sun shone. It wasn't considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they'd just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)

    Through the 1970s and into the 1980s, the FBI and other law enforcement started putting the data together that identified serial murder as a phenomenon (including the term "serial killer," invented by an FBI profiler). Word got around that strangers could mean danger to young women or children (the 1981 murder of Adam Walsh was another key case raising public awareness). And eventually, going off alone with strangers became something restricted mostly to prostitutes and homosexuals (still prime targets for serial killers).

    One way to look at "white guy" "pseudocommando"-style mass killing is that it's effectively a type of "suicide with an entourage." (Suicide is nearly as overwhelmingly prevalent among white males as homicide is among black males.) Interventions or policies that address suicide may pay off in arresting the mass killer trend.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Feryl, @That Would Be Telling

    It wasn’t considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they’d just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)

    They didn’t go off with him for sexual reasons, but out of charity. He was wearing a fake cast and asked them for help. Bundy used that ruse often. Many of his victims became victims because they were sweet, trusting young women.

    At least Bundy did eventually fry, although that evil creep deserved to get electrocuted many times over.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Mr. Anon


    They didn’t go off with him for sexual reasons, but out of charity. He was wearing a fake cast and asked them for help.
     
    With the two girls at Lake Sammamish he asked for help unloading a boat while he had a sling on his arm. Playing on women’s sympathies was a common ploy, but it also didn’t hurt that he was attractive. At the beginning of his murder spree he actually would kidnap women from their houses. There’s a small possibility he started doing that when he was as young as 14, when an 8-year-old girl, Ann Marie Burr, who lived near his home disappeared in the middle of the night, never to be found again.

    Two of his more brazen efforts occurred on literally the same day, in the Salt Lake area. He kidnapped a young woman from a mall while pretending to be a cop. She escaped from his car and later testified in a trial that put him away for 15 years. Later that night he tried to kidnap a high school drama teacher from the theater while she and her students were preparing for a performance. He pretended he needed help with his car, but she told him she was too busy to help. Bundy stayed for the performance and followed a young high school student, Debra Kent, out to the parking lot when she left early. He kidnapped, raped, and murdered her. They never found anything but her kneecap. One of my former bosses went to high school with that girl.

  22. Pixo says:

    There’s a very long term trend of whites becoming less violent. That can be missed since you don’t generally see long term crime rates charted by race in the USA.

    Most serial killers are motivated by a sexual fetish for inflicting pain or for dead bodies. Whites abuse their children at decreasing rates as well, which could lead to a decrease in such fetishists.

    From an academic article:

    “ The proportion of children subject to corporal punishment had declined by 2014 compared to other national surveys conducted in 1975 and 1985. This is in line with other studies showing declines of 26–40% in the spanking of kindergarden age children from 1988 to 2011.”

  23. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s

    In the 90s I deliberately avoided the topic out of disgust with how every single mass media product seemed to be celebrating serial killers (I also avoided Baywatch simply because of its popularity. Sometimes my reflexive contrarianism is indefensible). They’re not cranking out a serial killer movie and book every ten seconds now, so, yeah, not so much mental space indeed, although I notice that three of the more celebrated recent revived-dinosaur-media products (Dexter, Hannibal, Barry) are sympathetic portrayals of serial killers.
    Manhunter is one of the best movies of the 80s despite having the factuality and relevance of Flash Gordon, and it directly spawned two more beloved entertainments, Twin Peaks and the X Files, plus more which are less remembered. They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey. One aspect of the serial killer media phenomenon was straightforward domestic propaganda. The propagandists have moved on to more insidious and totalitarian forms of propaganda in social media and direct control of newsmedia.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.


    Since its inception, the FBI's core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @Stan Adams
    @J.Ross


    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.
     
    https://i.ibb.co/xHHGKSp/A08195-F9-9-B12-4655-8-E36-CA65914-ECE89.webp

    https://i.ibb.co/fpZS2wn/23885-FFA-1-A7-F-4-E8-F-B882-C14-CEF3-ED682.webp
  24. If I wanted to find the modern serial killer or his replacement, I would look for Mexican cartel enforcers; how good is the track record of US law enforcement with that crowd?

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  25. anonymous[142] • Disclaimer says:

    Isn’t it just that serial killing has gotten much harder because of the decline of hitchhiking, the ubiquity of personal cell phones, and the presence of cameras everywhere? Nowadays if someone tries to force a coed into their car in a Krogers parking lot it will all be recorded and cops will be looking for the car within moments. And if somehow that falls through the cracks the potential victim can just butt dial a contact and scream for help.

  26. @JimDandy
    @Reg Cæsar

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @kaganovitch, @That Would Be Telling

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    A teppanyaki mass killing would be fascinating to watch.

  27. Anon[271] • Disclaimer says:

    Everybody is carrying a cellphone with GPS. Someone dissapears, law enforcement can backtrack the last GPS phone signals, and then look at security camera footage from nearest homes, businesses, and traffic cams. Many cars have GPS also. These things make being a serial killer harder. Weirdos also find each other these days and have each other’s company, lessening their loneliness via the net.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Anon

    Don't forget DNA identification which can be done through blood, semen, urine, sweat, hair or skin. Smart killers today almost have to dispose of the body so that it is never found. Or at least destroy it (and perhaps even the crime scene) through burning, submersion, or acid so that there's little chance their DNA can be found in its proximity.

    BTW, the majority of serial killers have usually preyed on vulnerable populations who often meet strangers (transients, prostitutes, travelers, etc.) in areas not known for their strong security systems.

    Replies: @Alden

  28. @JimDandy
    I hate to say it (and it's probably wrong, anyway) but I wonder sometimes if one of the few benefits of our society's slide into Sodom & Gomorrah might be the decline of certain kinds of serial killers. Less sexual repression/shame due to more acceptance, nay, rock star status/power/social currency for deviant behaviors. The more deviant, the more officially heroic. Just a thought.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    The idea that historically normative sexual morality was actually deeply unhealthy, and somehow led directly to wanting to torture women to death, is 100% Hollywood/nationwrecker self-serving nonsense to justify pornography. It is like the idea that racists are jealous of blacks. It never had any basis in fact and there are a raft of claims of highly “liberated” people being enormously physically abusive toward women.

    [MORE]

    American pastor in Haiti who ran an orphanage (as well as a body piercing shop) caught diddling the liddles in March; some anon has done yeoman work putting this together:

    • Replies: @Corn
    @J.Ross

    Thanks. That’s a good point.

    Old America: Lower crime rates, lower illegitimacy rates, fewer broken families.

    New America: More crime, more illegitimacy, more broken families and people.

    Liberals: Yup! All our problems are residual shame from the old order!

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    , @JimDandy
    @J.Ross

    I was actually thinking specifically of the type of serial killer that used Chicago's gay neighborhoods as hunting grounds--Gacy, Dahmer, Larry Eyler. Toronto had Bruce MacArthur. Etc.

  29. Are mass killers hidden in the large number of unsolved murders in St Louis, Chicago, and Baltimore?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Goatweed

    After a freelance writer named Christine Pelisek figured out that a serial killer she dubbed the Grim Sleeper had reactivated himself after decades, the LAPD admitted about ten years ago that there were at least four other serial killers active in Los Angeles around 1990 that they'd also never noticed. They mostly murdered crack whores at the peak of the crack wars when so many people were getting murdered for other reasons that the cops never noticed the commonalities.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  30. The problem is that society is basically dead now so there’s no way to take advantage of people’s trusting nature to hurt them. No one hitchhikes anymore, no one goes outside or let’s their kids go outside, no one talks to strangers no one trusts their neighbor or even knows them. Serial killers and desegregation related crime totally destroyed the american social fabric over the decades and now the pickings are slim. It’s like a wolf population that starves because it over-hunts the local deer.

    I guess one upside is that those sick bastards have a harder time murdering random people on the other hand have you ever considered that they simply transitioned to being the mass shooter creeps?

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Sumerdoomer

    Perceptive comment.

    At this point, the social scene is basically dead. Outside of close family and maybe a FEW friends, people don't just socialize anymore. When they do interact with broader society, it's often in a HIGHLY controlled environment (workplace, classroom, school sports team), with minimal threat of dangerous spontaneity or forced intimacy.

    When they go out anywhere, they'll either look down at their phone or interact with whoever (spouse, kids, perhaps 1-2 friends) came with them. Nobody ever speaks to anyone new. Even in a nightclub environment, it's hard to meet new people these days.

    Even young people have abandoned public spaces and any broader social scene. Teens may socialize with many people online, but only keep a few close friends in real life. Younger kids either get parent-supervised "play dates" or school-supervised extracurriculars/sports, not spontaneous play without adult oversight. Helicopter parenting has totally changed what it's like to be a young person.

    Where exactly would a serial killer even be able to meet people and gain their trust? Everywhere I go, everyone has their guard up and is disconnected from broader society.

    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.

    We live in a profoundly anti-social age, in which meeting people and making friends are nearly impossible tasks.

    Most of the old serial killer "tricks" (befriending someone new, luring them somewhere, taking advantage of their naivety, etc) are obsolete. While it is true that you could meet people online, socializing on Facebook Messenger or Instagram DM is not the same as real life.

    Replies: @Jack D

  31. @Mr. Anon
    @Thomas


    It wasn’t considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they’d just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)
     
    They didn't go off with him for sexual reasons, but out of charity. He was wearing a fake cast and asked them for help. Bundy used that ruse often. Many of his victims became victims because they were sweet, trusting young women.

    At least Bundy did eventually fry, although that evil creep deserved to get electrocuted many times over.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    They didn’t go off with him for sexual reasons, but out of charity. He was wearing a fake cast and asked them for help.

    With the two girls at Lake Sammamish he asked for help unloading a boat while he had a sling on his arm. Playing on women’s sympathies was a common ploy, but it also didn’t hurt that he was attractive. At the beginning of his murder spree he actually would kidnap women from their houses. There’s a small possibility he started doing that when he was as young as 14, when an 8-year-old girl, Ann Marie Burr, who lived near his home disappeared in the middle of the night, never to be found again.

    Two of his more brazen efforts occurred on literally the same day, in the Salt Lake area. He kidnapped a young woman from a mall while pretending to be a cop. She escaped from his car and later testified in a trial that put him away for 15 years. Later that night he tried to kidnap a high school drama teacher from the theater while she and her students were preparing for a performance. He pretended he needed help with his car, but she told him she was too busy to help. Bundy stayed for the performance and followed a young high school student, Debra Kent, out to the parking lot when she left early. He kidnapped, raped, and murdered her. They never found anything but her kneecap. One of my former bosses went to high school with that girl.

  32. @Goatweed
    Are mass killers hidden in the large number of unsolved murders in St Louis, Chicago, and Baltimore?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    After a freelance writer named Christine Pelisek figured out that a serial killer she dubbed the Grim Sleeper had reactivated himself after decades, the LAPD admitted about ten years ago that there were at least four other serial killers active in Los Angeles around 1990 that they’d also never noticed. They mostly murdered crack whores at the peak of the crack wars when so many people were getting murdered for other reasons that the cops never noticed the commonalities.

    • Thanks: Goatweed
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Steve Sailer

    "the LAPD admitted about ten years ago that there were at least four other serial killers active in Los Angeles around 1990 that they’d also never noticed."

    Source, please.

    Regarding the "fall" of serial killers...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/are-serial-killers-more-common-than-we-think/596647/


    The helter-skelter 1970s and ’80s are remembered as the serial killer’s heyday—think of Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz. Since then, data suggest, the number of serial killers—defined by the National Institute of Justice as those who commit two or more separate murders, often with a psychological motive and a sadistic sexual component—has plunged, falling 85 percent in three decades; the FBI now says that serial killers account for fewer than 1 percent of killings. Several reasons are commonly cited for this decline, among them longer prison sentences and a reduction in parole (many serial killers are convicted murderers who, after serving time, kill again). Better forensic science is also credited, as are cultural and technological shifts: less hitchhiking, more helicopter parents, 60 million security cameras.

    But here’s a curious fact. As the number of serial killings has supposedly fallen, so too has the rate of murder cases solved—or “cleared,” in detective lingo. In 1965, the U.S. homicide clearance rate was 91 percent. By 2017, it had dropped to 61.6 percent, one of the lowest rates in the Western world. In other words, about 40 percent of the time, murderers get away with murder.

    Some experts believe that serial killers are responsible for a significant number of these unsolved murders. Thomas Hargrove, the founder of the Murder Accountability Project, a nonprofit that compiles data on homicide, has examined how many unsolved murders are linked by DNA evidence. He believes that at least 2 percent of murders are committed by serial offenders—translating to about 2,100 unidentified serial killers. Michael Arntfield, a retired police detective and the author of 12 books on serial murder, agrees that the FBI’s projections are off (he blames patchy data, among other things) but thinks the number of active serial killers is more like 3,000 or 4,000.
     
  33. @Pincher Martin

    On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.
     
    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker's book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What's remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America's courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn't waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TWS, @kaganovitch, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Gabe Ruth

    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt.

    For me, the “Silence…” was unconvincing from the beginning. Murderous sadist with such IQ & personality traits would never go into cannibalism, but – politics.
    “The Town That Dreaded Sundown” is more watchable now (no psychoanalysis, no unbelievable psycho stuff, no pseudo-philosophy,..).

    Regarding serial killers, I find perhaps the most intriguing case of the Cleveland killer, who destroyed the career of Eliott Ness of Al Capone fame.

    Then, a notable thing is that, globally, Mestizo Hispanics are the most prolific serial killers & sometimes they just walk free after some time….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_number_of_victims
    ………………………………….

    Pedro López

    Number of victims: 110 to 300+

    Child-murderer and rapist, known as “The Monster of the Andes”. López targeted young girls, between the ages of eight and twelve. Arrested in 1980 and convicted in 1983 of killing three young girls, but claimed to have killed hundreds. Despite being believed to be one of the most prolific serial killers of the twentieth century, he was released in the late 1990s.
    …………………………….
    Pedro Rodrigues Filho

    Number of victims: 71 to 100+

    Rodrigues Filho claimed to have killed over 100 victims, 47 of them inmates. He also killed his father and ate a piece of his heart. He killed his first two victims at the age of 14. He was first arrested in 1973; he was convicted and sentenced to 128 years, but the maximum one can serve in Brazil is 30 years. He was released in 2018.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
  34. @Mr. Anon
    Previously, Steve had speculated if men with a serial-killer disposition, realizing that it's a lot harder to get away with now, switched over to mass-murder. Sort of a "speed-serial-killing". That might at least explain the ones who survive their murderous rampage.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Feryl

    I agree.
    Who’s got the time nowadays’s to be a serial killer?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Bill Jones


    Who’s got the time nowadays’s to be a serial killer?
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04jd0Jm-_6E
  35. @Anon
    Everybody is carrying a cellphone with GPS. Someone dissapears, law enforcement can backtrack the last GPS phone signals, and then look at security camera footage from nearest homes, businesses, and traffic cams. Many cars have GPS also. These things make being a serial killer harder. Weirdos also find each other these days and have each other's company, lessening their loneliness via the net.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Don’t forget DNA identification which can be done through blood, semen, urine, sweat, hair or skin. Smart killers today almost have to dispose of the body so that it is never found. Or at least destroy it (and perhaps even the crime scene) through burning, submersion, or acid so that there’s little chance their DNA can be found in its proximity.

    BTW, the majority of serial killers have usually preyed on vulnerable populations who often meet strangers (transients, prostitutes, travelers, etc.) in areas not known for their strong security systems.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    I watched one of those true crime stories. The cameras that followed the cars exonerated the boyfriend and caught the killer’s truck in a parking lot 400 miles away.

    Oakland Ca . Young man picked up girlfriend at her family home. As soon as his car hit the nearest business street cameras picked them up. Then parking the car in a Walgreens parking kit. The couple walking in the Street. Entering a bar. In the bar. Leaving the bar with a friend. Getting into the friend’s car. Walgreens parking lot. Getting out of friends car into boyfriends car. Sitting in the car for a while . CarLeaving the parking lot.

    7AM next morning the maintenance crew found the woman’s raped and murdered body in a city park. Boyfriend the obvious suspect right?

    No boyfriend explained she wanted to take the bus because they both had too much to drink. He insisted he was okay to drive and streets were empty at1am and he wasn’t going to wait for a once an hour bus.

    She insisted on not driving with him and taking the bus. So he dropped her at the bus stop. And parked across the street in front of a bank. Left the car door unlocked and told her to wake him up when she got tired of waiting for a bus.

    He quickly went to sleep and woke up around 6 am and went home.

    There is was all on cameras Argument in Walgreens parking lot. Her getting out of the car at the bus stop. Him parking the car in front of the bank and other cameras. And staying in the car all night long. Completely Innocent.

    None of the cameras had a clear view of the bus stop. But did get a clear of a red pick up and license plate that drove by the bus stop twice and stopped the third time.

    License plate entered into a search system. And a few months later the red pick up was found in a parking lot near San Diego. Murderer arrested and convicted. Unfortunately the young woman was still dead.

    Safer to drive home drunk at 1 am than wait for a bus. Killer was Hispanic.

    Replies: @Rooster15

  36. The modern world is full of cameras, people have phones on them at all times (That are also cameras and tracking devices) and DNA evidence and other forensics are more advanced. And almost every serial killer story ends with them being arrested.

    Combine that with the world of ‘true crime’ that began in earnest in the early 90s, TV shows on police forensics and the public becoming more leery of strangers I’d say most potential perps are probably seriously deterred or maybe they’re getting caught after or even before their first murder.

    Whether the perception of how hard it would be is true, it’s widely believed.

    It’s also worth noting that the rise of internet pornography may have dulled the drive of a lot of the sexually-driven potential serial killers which seems to make up most of them.

    But it could also be an example of a horrifying cultural moment where the meme of serial killing itself drove the phenomena.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Altai

    Some really insightful comments here. I think you've nailed most of it, as well as whoever it was that noted a small increase in probability of being caught makes it hard to rack up the numbers. In fact, you've virtually got to be a nerd to understand how your phone will give you away these days.

    Anyone who is going to commit a crime like that has to think about what their alibi is for what their phone is doing while they commit the murder, or do they take it with them and have a GPS record of where they went?

    Internet pornography has been around for the last 25 years. During that time, the search space of every kink known to man has been explored, mined and committed to digital files, and every way to intensify the experience has been explored with positive feedback loops ad infinitum. Many if not most of the would-be serial killers have become addicted to internet porn like everyone else, even if their search terms are different. Millenials and probably a lot of even late Gen X... down to every younger generation. It's likely one of the reasons for the depressed total fertility rate.

    There may be a few who somehow have the sexual drives that porn are not satisfying, or for whatever reason aren't into internet porn. Maybe they have a sexual drive to inflict pain, suffering and death, or those who want to rape and are willing kill and to risk life for maybe a lower risk of being caught, or those who want to have sex with a corpse and so create one for that purpose. There are multiple reasons why different killers kill. Which is why what will help a victim is different for each killer... some actually want to be loved back, in a fashion, so struggling may not be the best idea for those. And there are others who are sadistic, for whom your best bet is to fight.

    For these people, you would go to the locales in the world where either the police force is too inept to crack these sort of cases, or they don't have much modern technology, etc. But it's kind of a lot of effort to go to. Do you want to learn Spanish or an African language (then how do you fit in)? The far easier path would be to do what everyone else is doing (porn addiction). But probably hiking is more dangerous now than it used to be, because where else will people not be recorded by omnipresent cameras in the modern world?

    Plausible deniability in the medical/hospital/aged care world is another refuge, and may draw some, but only those for whom like those sort of victims.

    Also note that the "disorganized" serial killers are basically crazy/mentally ill, so they are going to get caught a lot easier these days too.

    And note that serial killers are not mass murderers aren't spree killers. Each are different personality types, for the most part.

  37. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.

    I doubt that. Killing isn’t easy. The physicality of it, the act, the smells, doesn’t show in movies.
    Serial killers have a mindset.

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Yngvar


    I doubt that. Killing isn’t easy. The physicality of it, the act, the smells, doesn’t show in movies.
    Serial killers have a mindset.
     
    You have a point, because those who hunt game for food also experience that physicality of it, it's indeed not in the movies, and it can get intense.

    And we have a mindset including "we're going to be eating some tasty [fill in the blank] later." Or take hunting coyotes or I assume feral pigs to keep their population down, it's bad form to just leave the body lying wherever. But maybe that's different than where and when it did it in the farming part of the Midwest.

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.
     
    Never got a chance to hunt big game but that also involves exhausting work to get the deer or bigger animal back home. If my father currently had a sedentary job and lifestyle he'd start an exercise program before hunting season began. So you may also have a good point there.

    I suspect few hunters also became serial killers but that's mostly a guess.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)

  38. @Guest29048
    America’s most prolific serial killer was a black working class man named Samuel Little (1940-2020). He was very cunning, and probably highly intelligent.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWRJ0odF--k

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    He was very cunning, and probably highly intelligent.

    He probably had a 100+ IQ. One of the reasons he might’ve gotten away with it for so long is he just didn’t fit the description of what most cops think a serial killer looks like.

  39. @Wilkey

    One thing to keep in mind is that some of the sharp decline is due to the rule that the serial killer must be caught before being counted.
     
    He has to be caught before being counted (usually), but he (or she) has to kill enough people before being caught. The odds of being caught after each murder have gone way up, thanks to cameras, DNA fingerprinting etc. If the odds of getting away with murder are 1/2 of what they were 40-50 years ago, then the odds of getting away with five murders are 1/32 of what they were then. So a lot of serial killers are getting caught before they get to their second or third murder.

    Replies: @ic1000, @David

    > The odds of being caught after each murder have gone way up… So a lot of serial killers are getting caught before they get to their second or third murder.

    On the whole, yes. But not in places like Rust Belt City.

  40. @Lion of the Blogosphere
    Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1529098712466837505

    Replies: @dearieme, @al gore rhythms, @Alden, @JohnnyWalker123, @Lurker

    Non-Steve here: I wonder whether the Covid jabs have buggered up so many people’s immune systems that all sorts of infectious diseases are going to have a field day.

    One clue will be to see whether the unvaccinated (versus the Wuhan virus) are less troubled by other viruses than the multi-vaccinated. There will be confounders to worry about, as there always are with observational data, but the signal might be so strong as to be unmistakeable.

    Time will tell.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @dearieme

    It would be ironic if the geezers who survived the coof now succumb to the pox.

  41. @Thomas
    With regard to serial killers and their heyday, the sexual revolution was their time to make hay while the sun shone. It wasn't considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they'd just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)

    Through the 1970s and into the 1980s, the FBI and other law enforcement started putting the data together that identified serial murder as a phenomenon (including the term "serial killer," invented by an FBI profiler). Word got around that strangers could mean danger to young women or children (the 1981 murder of Adam Walsh was another key case raising public awareness). And eventually, going off alone with strangers became something restricted mostly to prostitutes and homosexuals (still prime targets for serial killers).

    One way to look at "white guy" "pseudocommando"-style mass killing is that it's effectively a type of "suicide with an entourage." (Suicide is nearly as overwhelmingly prevalent among white males as homicide is among black males.) Interventions or policies that address suicide may pay off in arresting the mass killer trend.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Feryl, @That Would Be Telling

    Another big change is that the population has aged a lot over the last 30 years. Fewer young people= less risk taking. In addition, the generations born since roughly 1975 spent their whole lives in the Moral Majority/stranger danger era in which their was a backlash to the free-wheeling youth culture of the 60’s and 70’s. So these generation tend to have their guard up. I think that due to rising inequality levels it will be a long time, if ever, before people can relax again. There just is very little social capital or trust in America these days.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Feryl

    I wonder if foreign countries are any different. Is the lack of trust localized to the USA or is it now a global phenomenon? Do people hesitate to trust strangers everywhere?

    In egalitarian Denmark or Finland, do people trust each other enough that it'd be easy for a serial killer to take advantage? Or is it the same situation as the USA?

    Replies: @Feryl

  42. @Mr. Anon
    Previously, Steve had speculated if men with a serial-killer disposition, realizing that it's a lot harder to get away with now, switched over to mass-murder. Sort of a "speed-serial-killing". That might at least explain the ones who survive their murderous rampage.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Feryl

    I would note that a substantial chunk of spree killers aren’t old enough to legally drink, whereas early scholar of serial killers Robert Ressler said that most serial killers began as prowling burglars, voyeurs, and flashers in their teens, escalate to rape as young adults, then escalate to murder in their late 20’s and 30’s. Spree killers tend to be either alienated young misfits who snap, or are middle aged people venting years of despair.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Feryl

    It makes it hard to profile mass killing shooters: they are 0.0000001% of unhappy males.

  43. @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    Americans are less trusting of strangers today. People like Ted Ted Bundy would not be able to convince young girls to help him, especially wearing a fake cast....Also far fewer street prostitutes to pick up. Hard to believe what is was like on the streets of most cities back in the 70s and 80s when there were hundreds of street walkers on the streets looking for John’s every night in the typical American city. A significant number of serial killers targeted street whores , which have almost vanished from city streets today. Do they still have street walkers in NYC today? Even Atlantic City no longer has street walkers. Back in the 1980’s there were about 100 girls strolling along Pacific Ave each night in front of all the hotels walking back and forth looking for clients. My biggest memory from my first trip to AC in 1982 when I was 12 was seeing all the prostitutes walking the streets. While stopped at a red light a girl flashed her tits at me and my dad.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    My biggest memory from my first trip to AC in 1982 when I was 12 was seeing all the prostitutes walking the streets. While stopped at a red light a girl flashed her tits at me and my dad.

    Lol, that’s my age 8ish memory from NYC in the 1970s. Except I think she was targeting the guy in the car behind us. We were just collateral damage.

  44. @anonymous
    Law enforcement was shockingly incompetent/unprepared. It's mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught.

    Or the major one in Texas where nobody even noticed for a while.

    Or Gacy.


    You couldn't get away with shit like that now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Wielgus, @Marquis

    When one of Dean Corll’s last victims disappeared, his mother went to the police in Texas and was not taken seriously. They assumed he had just run away from home. Although his mother said nobody does that wearing only swimming trunks and with no more than 50 cents.

  45. @SafeNow
    @Achmed E. Newman


    The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?
     
    Yes, right now.

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Joan Didion, writing about Norman Mailer’s “The Executioner’s Song” and Gary Gilmore’s popularity, called it America’s propensity to embrace the “the con style.”

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Philip Roth called it “the indigenous American berserk.”

    Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?

  46. Reading a book about Peter Sutcliffe what was surprising was how poor police techniques and technology were when he did his murders from the late sixties to the early eighties, no police national computer and police 15 miles apart didn’t spot related murders because different county police forces didn’t talk to each other.

    • Replies: @Joe S.Walker
    @Gordo

    Peter Sutcliffe, aka the Yorkshire Ripper, was unusual in that his crimes were recognised as a series and widely publicised while they were still going on. In fact the Ripper was a huge news story here in Britain, I can remember the murders happening, and the hoax cassette tape that the police took for real and gave enormous publicity and manpower. Re the police's handling of the case, the main problem was that they had vast amounts of raw data in physical form and no ready means of organising and sharing it. Nobody had ever made detailed observations of street prostitution in the north of England before, and they were amazed by how much of the business there was.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  47. We are approaching the 30th anniversary of one of the most baffling unsolved crimes, the disappearance of the Springfield Three.What makes it so strange is that there are no theories as to what might have happened. Saying that they were teleported to another planet makes about as much sense as anything else.
    https://www.springfieldmo.gov/2498/Three-Missing-Women

  48. The rise interest in serial killers has led to their downfall. There were always sick crazy people in the past who enjoyed killing lots of randos, but without a post-industrial professional police force with psychological data, no one had a name or term for them.

    Once “serial killer” became a meme people knew (Sapir-Whorf, Richard Dawkins, and George Orwell, take a bow), and it became stylized in news reports and movies, the first thing common folk think when they hear of multiple murders is “serial killer.” Which of course leads to someone at the police force checking to see if it is a serial killer with serial hallmarks, which means the serial killer doesn’t get away with so many killings.

    Perhaps the last true serial killer was Jeffrey Dahmer, who, since he was homosexual, had an easy time finding sad sack gays and chopping them up. Since this was pre-Gay Pride, the cops just ignored the connections as did the press. One awful tale has a teenage boy escaping from Dahmer, only for the cops to laughingly return him directly to Dahmer because Dahmer claimed it was his lover.

    • Replies: @Corn
    @R.G. Camara

    Yup, a couple cops told Dahmer to take the boy home. Two or three women walking by expressed concern about the boy’s state. Coos told them to butt out, they had everything in hand

    Replies: @J.Ross

  49. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai
    The modern world is full of cameras, people have phones on them at all times (That are also cameras and tracking devices) and DNA evidence and other forensics are more advanced. And almost every serial killer story ends with them being arrested.

    Combine that with the world of 'true crime' that began in earnest in the early 90s, TV shows on police forensics and the public becoming more leery of strangers I'd say most potential perps are probably seriously deterred or maybe they're getting caught after or even before their first murder.

    Whether the perception of how hard it would be is true, it's widely believed.

    It's also worth noting that the rise of internet pornography may have dulled the drive of a lot of the sexually-driven potential serial killers which seems to make up most of them.

    But it could also be an example of a horrifying cultural moment where the meme of serial killing itself drove the phenomena.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Some really insightful comments here. I think you’ve nailed most of it, as well as whoever it was that noted a small increase in probability of being caught makes it hard to rack up the numbers. In fact, you’ve virtually got to be a nerd to understand how your phone will give you away these days.

    Anyone who is going to commit a crime like that has to think about what their alibi is for what their phone is doing while they commit the murder, or do they take it with them and have a GPS record of where they went?

    Internet pornography has been around for the last 25 years. During that time, the search space of every kink known to man has been explored, mined and committed to digital files, and every way to intensify the experience has been explored with positive feedback loops ad infinitum. Many if not most of the would-be serial killers have become addicted to internet porn like everyone else, even if their search terms are different. Millenials and probably a lot of even late Gen X… down to every younger generation. It’s likely one of the reasons for the depressed total fertility rate.

    There may be a few who somehow have the sexual drives that porn are not satisfying, or for whatever reason aren’t into internet porn. Maybe they have a sexual drive to inflict pain, suffering and death, or those who want to rape and are willing kill and to risk life for maybe a lower risk of being caught, or those who want to have sex with a corpse and so create one for that purpose. There are multiple reasons why different killers kill. Which is why what will help a victim is different for each killer… some actually want to be loved back, in a fashion, so struggling may not be the best idea for those. And there are others who are sadistic, for whom your best bet is to fight.

    For these people, you would go to the locales in the world where either the police force is too inept to crack these sort of cases, or they don’t have much modern technology, etc. But it’s kind of a lot of effort to go to. Do you want to learn Spanish or an African language (then how do you fit in)? The far easier path would be to do what everyone else is doing (porn addiction). But probably hiking is more dangerous now than it used to be, because where else will people not be recorded by omnipresent cameras in the modern world?

    Plausible deniability in the medical/hospital/aged care world is another refuge, and may draw some, but only those for whom like those sort of victims.

    Also note that the “disorganized” serial killers are basically crazy/mentally ill, so they are going to get caught a lot easier these days too.

    And note that serial killers are not mass murderers aren’t spree killers. Each are different personality types, for the most part.

  50. @Pincher Martin

    On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.
     
    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker's book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What's remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America's courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn't waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TWS, @kaganovitch, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Gabe Ruth

    The sixties to eighties rise in crime is entirely due to the liberal courts.

    Miranda was guilty.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @TWS

    The liberal courts certainly did their fair share in contributing to the rise of crime in the nineteen-sixties, but "entirely" is too strong a word.

    Demographics was also responsible. More young males in a society equals more potential criminals. I don't think it's a coincidence that when the Baby Boomers began to come of age in the mid-sixties, the crime rate began to rise.

    And I would also not discount the effect of mind-bending drugs suddenly coming into vogue during that period. For most people, drugs don't have any effect at all on their behavior. But for a small marginal group of losers, drugs can often make their already tenuous grip with reality much weaker. I'm thinking of killers as various as John Lindsay Frazier (who was into LSD) - https://www.santacruzghosthunters.com/john-l-frazier.html - and, for a more recent example, Jared Lee Loughner - http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041634,00.html - who smoked so much dope he could've single-handedly kept a small Mexican cartel in business all by himself.

    These men were mass murderers, not serial killers. But drug use almost certainly made their underlying mental illness worse and heightened their delusions, which led to the killings.

  51. according to the Radford University Database of known serial killers

    Is this Radford’s calling card? The Marist or Quinnipiac of death? First time it’s shown on my radar.

    Looks nice. Not like Paul Rudolph’s brutalist grotto UMass-Dartmouth– where the wind turbine is the best-looking feature. That might be a more appropriate setting.

    [MORE]

  52. @J.Ross
    @JimDandy

    The idea that historically normative sexual morality was actually deeply unhealthy, and somehow led directly to wanting to torture women to death, is 100% Hollywood/nationwrecker self-serving nonsense to justify pornography. It is like the idea that racists are jealous of blacks. It never had any basis in fact and there are a raft of claims of highly "liberated" people being enormously physically abusive toward women.

    American pastor in Haiti who ran an orphanage (as well as a body piercing shop) caught diddling the liddles in March; some anon has done yeoman work putting this together:
    https://i.postimg.cc/59DtynY9/1653507295200.jpg

    Replies: @Corn, @JimDandy

    Thanks. That’s a good point.

    Old America: Lower crime rates, lower illegitimacy rates, fewer broken families.

    New America: More crime, more illegitimacy, more broken families and people.

    Liberals: Yup! All our problems are residual shame from the old order!

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Corn

    Remember, intact family units are White Supremacy!

  53. The rise of the serial killer was linked to the Vietnam war and the Phoenix Program (see Doug Valentine’s book The Phoenix Program). It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS and other drugs to perform unspeakable acts of cruelty, torture and murder in order to terrorize the Vietnamese population supporting the Viet Cong.
    After these brain-damaged vets returned to the US, they continued to do what they’ve been taught to do, but this time on the American population, often with the cooperation of intelligence agencies, the police and the drug cartels, for various reasons ( for experimentation purposes, to terrorize the American population, to do hits for the police or the cartels, or just randomly in their spare time).
    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @BB753

    The Phoenix Program (1967 - 1972) was definitely an aspect of the serial killer eruption during the Sixties through Eighties time-frame; but the phenomenon was much broader in scope. Douglas Valentines' well documented book is the critical source for the sinister Phoenix Program.

    , @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.
     
    A list of some of the most famous serial killers who began killing in the late nineteen-sixties and early nineteen-seventies and their relationship (if any) to the U.S. military.

    Dean Corll (The Candy Man) - Drafted in 1964 and served less than ten months before he was granted an honorable discharge at his request for family reasons.

    Ted Bundy - no military service.

    John Wayne Gacy - no military service.

    Kenneth Bianchi & Angelo Buono (Hillside Stranglers) - no known military service.

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) - three years in U.S. Army (1971-74). Stationed in South Korea, not Vietnam.

    Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) - four years in U.S. Air Force (1966-70)

    John Paul Knowles (The Casanova Killer) - no known military service

    Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer) - drafted into U.S. Army in 1967 and served one tour in Vietnam. While he boasted of "grotesque combat exploits, such as "beheading mama-sans and nailing their heads to trees as a warning to the Vietcong" and engaging in cannibalism; in reality he never served in a combat position."

    Herbert Mullin - no military service.

    Edmund Kemper (The Co-ed Killer) - no military service.

    Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker) - One-year enlistment (1957) in the U.S. Army Reserves.

    Randy Kraft (The Scorecard Killer) - served two years stateside in U.S. Air Force (1967-69); discharged after announcing to his superiors he was homosexual.

    Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer) - served in U.S. Army from 1961 to 1964, went AWOL and was given a medical discharge for mental issues.

    Juan Corona - no military service.

    Donald Harvey - no military service.

    Samuel Little - no military service.

    Ottis Toole - no known military service.

    Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento) - no military service.

    Joseph Paul Franklin - no known military service.

    Gerald Gallego - no military service.

    Joseph DeAngelo (The Golden State Killer) - enlisted in U.S. Navy in 1964 and served 22 months on a ship in the Vietnam theater of Operation.

    Roger Kibbe (The I-5 Killer) - no known military service.

    ________

    So of the 23 men listed above, only eight served in the military and of those only two served in Vietnam. Even if I missed a handful of those who served because of incomplete records or shoddy research, that doesn't seem to back up your theory.

    Replies: @Alden, @JimDandy, @BB753

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @BB753

    Excellent posts.

    Why do you think so many of these individuals were involved with Satanic cults?

    Also, I'm sure you are familiar with the "Finders" cult, Boystown Omaha, and the rampant occultism of the elites(Hollywood, Marina Abramovich, Jeffrey Epstein's temple, etc). There seem to be real-life Satanists in critical positions of our power structure. What are your thoughts on all that?

    Replies: @BB753

    , @duncsbaby
    @BB753


    It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS
     
    Surely Mormons can't be blamed for this too.

    Replies: @BB753

  54. Anonymous[149] • Disclaimer says:

    Can somebody clarify where and why Heinlein in the 1940s predicted the “Crazy Years” to be 60’s and 70’s?

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    https://orangeraisin.wordpress.com/2017/11/05/robert-a-heinleins-crazy-years/


    a loose sequence of short stories taking place in a single timeline, now known as the Future History.

    The chronology stretched from what was then the immediate future – the mid-20th century – out to the year 2210. Somewhere between World War II and the first man on the moon Heinlein prophetically placed the Crazy Years – “a gradual deterioration of mores, orientation and social institutions, terminating in mass psychoses in the sixth decade”.

    robert a heinlein to sail beyond the sunset

    In 1987(!!!)’s To Sail Beyond the Sunset the heroine gazes back from the distant future on that era of mass psychoses:

    So many casual killings in public streets and public parks and public transports that most lawful citizens avoided going out after dark…
    Public school teachers and state university professors who taught that patriotism was an obsolete concept, that marriage was an obsolete concept, that sin was an obsolete concept, that politeness was an obsolete concept – that the United States itself was an obsolete concept…
    Cocaine and heroin called “recreational drugs”, felony theft called “joyriding” … felonious assault by gangs called “muggings”, and the reaction to all these crimes was “boys will be boys”, so scold them and put them on probation but don’t ruin their lives by treating them as criminals…
    Millions of women who found it more rewarding to have babies out of wedlock than it would be to get married or to go to work…

    As disgusted as he was by hooligans, bums, and tenured anti-intellectuals, Heinlein actually cheered on most of the cultural changes that emerged from the sixties. He was an emphatic anti-racist, disdained organized religion, practiced nudism, and favoured open marriage. He foresaw and foreliked the reformation in sexual morals that progressives are now working to lock in: open homosexuality, gender fluidity, “sex work” as a respected career. Going by Heinlein’s prognostications, we shouldn’t expect the taboos against incest and polygamy to endure much longer.
     

    Actually this link is mostly observing something I have observed, that Heinlein is the thirstiest guy in top tier sci-fi, and by Fear No Evil he's actually preceding the brothers Wachowski in showing how pedestalling leads to trannyism (see also the latest Rammstein video, which is rather charming, a return-to-form musically, and [for Rammstein] toned down). Because if female drippings really were what thirst asks nothing more than, if unmentionables really were magic, then trannyism would actually make sen-- no it still wouldn't, but you can see how the one would run into the other.
  55. @Pincher Martin

    On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.
     
    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker's book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What's remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America's courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn't waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TWS, @kaganovitch, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Gabe Ruth

    that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    The Nader stuff was always B.S. but the rest of it seems to have made a strong comeback.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @kaganovitch

    Certainly the Russians as the enemy are back in vogue. But as fascists this time, not as Reds.


    And as for "doomsday bunkers," I would say that Western governments have never been less fearful of a nuclear war given the way they continue to provoke a nuclear-armed power.

  56. @J.Ross
    @JimDandy

    The idea that historically normative sexual morality was actually deeply unhealthy, and somehow led directly to wanting to torture women to death, is 100% Hollywood/nationwrecker self-serving nonsense to justify pornography. It is like the idea that racists are jealous of blacks. It never had any basis in fact and there are a raft of claims of highly "liberated" people being enormously physically abusive toward women.

    American pastor in Haiti who ran an orphanage (as well as a body piercing shop) caught diddling the liddles in March; some anon has done yeoman work putting this together:
    https://i.postimg.cc/59DtynY9/1653507295200.jpg

    Replies: @Corn, @JimDandy

    I was actually thinking specifically of the type of serial killer that used Chicago’s gay neighborhoods as hunting grounds–Gacy, Dahmer, Larry Eyler. Toronto had Bruce MacArthur. Etc.

  57. @J.Ross
    The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s

    In the 90s I deliberately avoided the topic out of disgust with how every single mass media product seemed to be celebrating serial killers (I also avoided Baywatch simply because of its popularity. Sometimes my reflexive contrarianism is indefensible). They're not cranking out a serial killer movie and book every ten seconds now, so, yeah, not so much mental space indeed, although I notice that three of the more celebrated recent revived-dinosaur-media products (Dexter, Hannibal, Barry) are sympathetic portrayals of serial killers.
    Manhunter is one of the best movies of the 80s despite having the factuality and relevance of Flash Gordon, and it directly spawned two more beloved entertainments, Twin Peaks and the X Files, plus more which are less remembered. They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey. One aspect of the serial killer media phenomenon was straightforward domestic propaganda. The propagandists have moved on to more insidious and totalitarian forms of propaganda in social media and direct control of newsmedia.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Stan Adams

    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @kaganovitch


    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.
     

    And for me the iconic example of that was the 1965-1974 The F.B.I. TV series which I clearly remember the last few years of in its first run (and which I now discover was a totally Jewish production).

    Something we might factor into timelines is how for the less propagandized and better able to accept real life horror part of the population the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco. Which happened around the time the Ruby Ridge trial was held that exonerated the victims of FBI Hostage "Rescue" Team member Lon Horiuchi.

    Actually, this probably doesn't make a difference, that the fact the FBI was openly running a death squad should be a deterrent to crime. The stark incompetence J.Ross mentions started to become very clear very early in this century and that might fritter it away. After 9/11 we certainly got the message "you're on your own" loud and clear, which is reflected in thing like gun purchases and perhaps survivalism 2.0, "preppers," I don't know the timeline of that.

    Replies: @prosa123, @JimDandy, @duncsbaby

  58. @JimDandy
    @Reg Cæsar

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @kaganovitch, @That Would Be Telling

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Considering that Ginsu has always been made in the USA, not likely. Considering further that it is ultimately owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway, the plaintiff’s bar might nevertheless be tempted.

  59. @Pincher Martin

    On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.
     
    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker's book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What's remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America's courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn't waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TWS, @kaganovitch, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Gabe Ruth

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Probably because the 60s were the key decade when society began going soft in the head on criminals.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Also, the Sixties was a time of engineered psycho-chemical revolution. LSD use, beginning in elite scientistic circles in the 1950s and then widely distributed throughout the 1960s through the efforts of CIA chemist Sydney Gottlieb, was the primary instrument of this large scale experiment in altered states of consciousness. Another gift from MK-ULTRA.

  60. Anon[160] • Disclaimer says:

    A right-wing (and realistic) way of thinking is to think in terms of incentives.

    The decline in serial killers is due to increase in chances of a serial killer being caught.

    Posters in this thread gave reasons. Better law enforcement techniques. Use of technology such as security cameras and smart phones. People trusting strangers less.

  61. @Anon
    Serial killers have been around for a long time. Just read about H. H. Holmes. Jack the Rippers isn't modern. Albert Fish was one of the craziest guys I've ever read about, inserting almost 30 needles all the way into himself for the fun of it besides killing children.

    Before the modern era there were a fair number of killers who targeted travelers, robbing and murdering them to hide the evidence.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @duncsbaby

    Serial killers have been around for a long time.

    The Cleveland Torso murderer is one of the creepiest pre-WW2 US serial killers.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer

  62. @Stillderswine
    @Achmed E. Newman

    "The Crazy Years are going on right now. How can they not be? What else would you call this shit?"

    You need to read that Steven Pinker "Better Angels of our Natures" book like 4 times, I literally have, mostly because I pirate audiobooks and listen to them while shopping, driving, biking, working and gaming. Even Steve doesn't seem quite keyed in, and it's an 800 page book, maybe he hasn't read it, not the craziest idea, but I just can't take people seriously, really, on some level, until they've internalized it. 25% chance dying by human-on-human violence in prehistory (why everyone is obsessed with it,) none of even hardcore race realist theorist shit suggests blacks are more violent because of that (humans are "naturally" 100 times more violent,) etc.etc.--2011 book, "maybe don't suggest the police are invalid authorities" obvious notion therein.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    So… things were worse in the cave man days? That’s your point?

  63. @Pincher Martin

    On the other hand, it’s almost certainly true that serial killings are in decline. The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s. My vague impression is that 21st Century serial killer movies (e.g., Zodiac) are often period pieces.
     
    I rewatched both _Silence of the Lambs_ and _Manhunter_ recently, and I was surprised by how dated both movies felt. They are like something out of another era. I wonder if young people watching those movies today feel much the way about serial killers that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    It appears that the idea of serial killing was something of a social contagion that spread first among whites, then among nonwhites. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    One disappointment I had with Steven Pinker's book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ is that he does not adequately deal with the rapid rise in crime that began in the mid-sixties and did not end until the mid-nineties. He makes note of it, but he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, despite the fact that in many ways it contradicts his thesis and its recency should give him plenty of documentary material to work with.

    But my guess is that the Baby Boom combined with the sexual and drug revolutions, the liberal jurisprudence of the Warren Court for criminal justice procedure (handcuffing the police) and the habit of parole boards to be so lenient up until the 1980s, caused the explosion.

    What's remarkable when looking back at the 1950s is how quickly America's courts were to execute murderers and particularly serial killers/mass murderers.

    Look at the spree killer, Charles Starkweather. He was captured on January 28th, 1958 after killing eleven people in two months. Less than a year and half later, he was executed on June 25th, 1959.

    I find something morally admirable in that.

    Or how about Harvey Glatman, the famous Glamour Girl Slayer, who murdered at least three victims. He was apprehended on Halloween 1958. He did not live to see Halloween the next year. He was executed in San Quentin on September 18th, 1959.

    Very few of the most infamous killers caught before 1960 stayed in prison for longer than three years before they were executed.

    The Lonely Hearts killers, Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez, were caught in 1949 and executed in 1951. Both of them.

    There are some exceptions. But damn few. Leopold and Loeb, for example. Or this guy, who INEXPLICABLY got a second opportunity to be a murderer and didn't waste it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Keith_(criminal)

    But on the whole courts back then got it right.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TWS, @kaganovitch, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Gabe Ruth

    Was thinking yesterday that in cases where they don’t get killed, standard procedure for school shooters should be the families of the victims lynch him that day. Or draw and quarter him, let’s encourage creativity and regional particularity.

    • LOL: Pincher Martin
    • Replies: @al gore rhythms
    @Gabe Ruth

    Isn't lynching a federal hate crime in America now?

    Someone to do with some guy from ages ago called Emmett Till, apparently, whose name has been practically lost in the sands of time.

  64. Anonymous[970] • Disclaimer says:

    Antifa, BLM, Capitol Police. All serial killers. Mayor Lightfoot? Can she account for her whereabouts when all those people in Chicago were killed?

  65. @Anonymous
    Can somebody clarify where and why Heinlein in the 1940s predicted the “Crazy Years” to be 60’s and 70’s?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    https://orangeraisin.wordpress.com/2017/11/05/robert-a-heinleins-crazy-years/

    a loose sequence of short stories taking place in a single timeline, now known as the Future History.

    The chronology stretched from what was then the immediate future – the mid-20th century – out to the year 2210. Somewhere between World War II and the first man on the moon Heinlein prophetically placed the Crazy Years – “a gradual deterioration of mores, orientation and social institutions, terminating in mass psychoses in the sixth decade”.

    robert a heinlein to sail beyond the sunset

    In 1987(!!!)’s To Sail Beyond the Sunset the heroine gazes back from the distant future on that era of mass psychoses:

    So many casual killings in public streets and public parks and public transports that most lawful citizens avoided going out after dark…
    Public school teachers and state university professors who taught that patriotism was an obsolete concept, that marriage was an obsolete concept, that sin was an obsolete concept, that politeness was an obsolete concept – that the United States itself was an obsolete concept…
    Cocaine and heroin called “recreational drugs”, felony theft called “joyriding” … felonious assault by gangs called “muggings”, and the reaction to all these crimes was “boys will be boys”, so scold them and put them on probation but don’t ruin their lives by treating them as criminals…
    Millions of women who found it more rewarding to have babies out of wedlock than it would be to get married or to go to work…

    As disgusted as he was by hooligans, bums, and tenured anti-intellectuals, Heinlein actually cheered on most of the cultural changes that emerged from the sixties. He was an emphatic anti-racist, disdained organized religion, practiced nudism, and favoured open marriage. He foresaw and foreliked the reformation in sexual morals that progressives are now working to lock in: open homosexuality, gender fluidity, “sex work” as a respected career. Going by Heinlein’s prognostications, we shouldn’t expect the taboos against incest and polygamy to endure much longer.

    Actually this link is mostly observing something I have observed, that Heinlein is the thirstiest guy in top tier sci-fi, and by Fear No Evil he’s actually preceding the brothers Wachowski in showing how pedestalling leads to trannyism (see also the latest Rammstein video, which is rather charming, a return-to-form musically, and [for Rammstein] toned down). Because if female drippings really were what thirst asks nothing more than, if unmentionables really were magic, then trannyism would actually make sen– no it still wouldn’t, but you can see how the one would run into the other.

  66. Heinlein’s “Crazy Years” (60s – 70s) were indeed crazy, especially in California. The Sixties and Seventies were also the decades in which CIA and U.S. military programs initiated in the Fifties that were designed to create blank slate spies and assassins came to fruition. And California was ground zero for this work: UCLA, UC Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz and a panoply of CIA and military funded institutes of social science and psychology doubled as incubators.

    Recent research has established that several SF Bay Area locations, including the California Medical Facility in Vacaville, were used as social petri dishes to create the Manson Family, the Zodiac (more than one Zodiac), and the black nationalist group SLA that kidnapped Patty Hearst.

  67. @Thomas
    With regard to serial killers and their heyday, the sexual revolution was their time to make hay while the sun shone. It wasn't considered unusual or dangerous for young women to go off alone with strange men they'd just met. (Ted Bundy managed to convince two separate young women to go off with him, to their deaths, from a crowded beach in one afternoon.)

    Through the 1970s and into the 1980s, the FBI and other law enforcement started putting the data together that identified serial murder as a phenomenon (including the term "serial killer," invented by an FBI profiler). Word got around that strangers could mean danger to young women or children (the 1981 murder of Adam Walsh was another key case raising public awareness). And eventually, going off alone with strangers became something restricted mostly to prostitutes and homosexuals (still prime targets for serial killers).

    One way to look at "white guy" "pseudocommando"-style mass killing is that it's effectively a type of "suicide with an entourage." (Suicide is nearly as overwhelmingly prevalent among white males as homicide is among black males.) Interventions or policies that address suicide may pay off in arresting the mass killer trend.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Feryl, @That Would Be Telling

    One way to look at “white guy” “pseudocommando”-style mass killing is that it’s effectively a type of “suicide with an entourage.”

    “Suicide by cop” is definitely a thing, and Massad Ayoob in the first decade of the century tallied up a few cases of suicide by legally armed citizen, that is where the perp knew the citizen was armed.

  68. @TWS
    @Pincher Martin

    The sixties to eighties rise in crime is entirely due to the liberal courts.

    Miranda was guilty.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    The liberal courts certainly did their fair share in contributing to the rise of crime in the nineteen-sixties, but “entirely” is too strong a word.

    Demographics was also responsible. More young males in a society equals more potential criminals. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that when the Baby Boomers began to come of age in the mid-sixties, the crime rate began to rise.

    And I would also not discount the effect of mind-bending drugs suddenly coming into vogue during that period. For most people, drugs don’t have any effect at all on their behavior. But for a small marginal group of losers, drugs can often make their already tenuous grip with reality much weaker. I’m thinking of killers as various as John Lindsay Frazier (who was into LSD) – https://www.santacruzghosthunters.com/john-l-frazier.html – and, for a more recent example, Jared Lee Loughner – http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041634,00.html – who smoked so much dope he could’ve single-handedly kept a small Mexican cartel in business all by himself.

    These men were mass murderers, not serial killers. But drug use almost certainly made their underlying mental illness worse and heightened their delusions, which led to the killings.

  69. @kaganovitch
    @Pincher Martin

    that I felt as a young person in the late eighties and early nineties about doomsday bunkers for nuclear war, the Red enemy within, and Naderite concerns about unsafe automobiles.

    The Nader stuff was always B.S. but the rest of it seems to have made a strong comeback.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Certainly the Russians as the enemy are back in vogue. But as fascists this time, not as Reds.

    And as for “doomsday bunkers,” I would say that Western governments have never been less fearful of a nuclear war given the way they continue to provoke a nuclear-armed power.

  70. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Pincher Martin


    But on the whole courts back then got it right.
     
    Probably because the 60s were the key decade when society began going soft in the head on criminals.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    Also, the Sixties was a time of engineered psycho-chemical revolution. LSD use, beginning in elite scientistic circles in the 1950s and then widely distributed throughout the 1960s through the efforts of CIA chemist Sydney Gottlieb, was the primary instrument of this large scale experiment in altered states of consciousness. Another gift from MK-ULTRA.

  71. @Gabe Ruth
    @Pincher Martin

    Was thinking yesterday that in cases where they don’t get killed, standard procedure for school shooters should be the families of the victims lynch him that day. Or draw and quarter him, let’s encourage creativity and regional particularity.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms

    Isn’t lynching a federal hate crime in America now?

    Someone to do with some guy from ages ago called Emmett Till, apparently, whose name has been practically lost in the sands of time.

  72. @Lion of the Blogosphere
    Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1529098712466837505

    Replies: @dearieme, @al gore rhythms, @Alden, @JohnnyWalker123, @Lurker

    Let’s get Monkeypox Over and Through in ’22.

    Fun fact: According to leading Western military analysts, every time someone takes their monkeypox vaccine triple-booster a Russian soldier dies a slow and painful death.

  73. @BB753
    The rise of the serial killer was linked to the Vietnam war and the Phoenix Program (see Doug Valentine's book The Phoenix Program). It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS and other drugs to perform unspeakable acts of cruelty, torture and murder in order to terrorize the Vietnamese population supporting the Viet Cong.
    After these brain-damaged vets returned to the US, they continued to do what they've been taught to do, but this time on the American population, often with the cooperation of intelligence agencies, the police and the drug cartels, for various reasons ( for experimentation purposes, to terrorize the American population, to do hits for the police or the cartels, or just randomly in their spare time).
    If you read Dave McGowan's Programmed to Kill you'll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Pincher Martin, @JohnnyWalker123, @duncsbaby

    The Phoenix Program (1967 – 1972) was definitely an aspect of the serial killer eruption during the Sixties through Eighties time-frame; but the phenomenon was much broader in scope. Douglas Valentines’ well documented book is the critical source for the sinister Phoenix Program.

    • Agree: BB753
  74. @kaganovitch
    @J.Ross

    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.


    Since its inception, the FBI's core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.

    And for me the iconic example of that was the 1965-1974 The F.B.I. TV series which I clearly remember the last few years of in its first run (and which I now discover was a totally Jewish production).

    Something we might factor into timelines is how for the less propagandized and better able to accept real life horror part of the population the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco. Which happened around the time the Ruby Ridge trial was held that exonerated the victims of FBI Hostage “Rescue” Team member Lon Horiuchi.

    Actually, this probably doesn’t make a difference, that the fact the FBI was openly running a death squad should be a deterrent to crime. The stark incompetence J.Ross mentions started to become very clear very early in this century and that might fritter it away. After 9/11 we certainly got the message “you’re on your own” loud and clear, which is reflected in thing like gun purchases and perhaps survivalism 2.0, “preppers,” I don’t know the timeline of that.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @That Would Be Telling

    the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco

    Children are a different story, but please explain to me, in detail, why the women's lives were any more valuable than the men's lives. Or why the women were more innocent. Of course you can't provide any explanation whatsoever because there is none.
    Well, okay, like way too many men you probably think that infantilizing women will get them to drop their panties for you. News flash: it doesn't.

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

    , @JimDandy
    @That Would Be Telling

    The F.B.I. has made it the law that they must be allowed to ok any script that mentions them.

    Erik Striker:

    A little known law passed in 1954 at the urging of then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover makes it illegal to display the FBI seal, the FBI initials, and the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” in commercial popular culture without expressed permission from the Bureau’s propaganda office, the Investigative Publicity and Public Affairs Unit (IPPAU).

    ▲▼In order to obtain permission to portray the FBI on film, writers and producers must give propaganda agents full veto power over their content.

    ▲▼A cache of documents obtained in 2017 by journalists under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) found that the FBI uses this power liberally to sanitize its image. Various other federal agencies like the CIA and ICE do not have this power.

    ▲▼In 2010 terrorism thriller Unthinkable, the IPPAU forced producers to cut a scene showing FBI and CIA agents torturing a man together. In the “revised” version, the CIA agent still tortures the man, but laughably, the FBI agent present protests against the action the entire time, even citing the Geneva Convention as reason for refusing to participate.

    ▲▼The FBI sends “advisors” to rewrite scripts in all productions about them, often cutting out instances of them violating people’s civil rights, talking down to local cops, or engaging in various heinous activities. The result is preferential media treatment most law enforcement groups do not enjoy: the popular portrayal of every single FBI agent as a hero saving the world while we sleep without ever needing to break any rules is deliberately constructed fantasy.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Joe S.Walker, @Anonymous

    , @duncsbaby
    @That Would Be Telling

    You're saying a t.v. show was a "totally Jewish production"? Well, that's a shocker. Surely they had a couple of Irish guys doing the gaffing? Efrem's alright w/me. In fact I'm a fan of the whole Zimbalist line.

  75. @That Would Be Telling
    @kaganovitch


    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.
     

    And for me the iconic example of that was the 1965-1974 The F.B.I. TV series which I clearly remember the last few years of in its first run (and which I now discover was a totally Jewish production).

    Something we might factor into timelines is how for the less propagandized and better able to accept real life horror part of the population the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco. Which happened around the time the Ruby Ridge trial was held that exonerated the victims of FBI Hostage "Rescue" Team member Lon Horiuchi.

    Actually, this probably doesn't make a difference, that the fact the FBI was openly running a death squad should be a deterrent to crime. The stark incompetence J.Ross mentions started to become very clear very early in this century and that might fritter it away. After 9/11 we certainly got the message "you're on your own" loud and clear, which is reflected in thing like gun purchases and perhaps survivalism 2.0, "preppers," I don't know the timeline of that.

    Replies: @prosa123, @JimDandy, @duncsbaby

    the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco

    Children are a different story, but please explain to me, in detail, why the women’s lives were any more valuable than the men’s lives. Or why the women were more innocent. Of course you can’t provide any explanation whatsoever because there is none.
    Well, okay, like way too many men you probably think that infantilizing women will get them to drop their panties for you. News flash: it doesn’t.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @prosa123

    Good for your comment about men’s lives being as valuable as women’s and kids.

    , @J.Ross
    @prosa123

    Easy. Every murder victim felled by the illegitimate terrorist government is ostensibly an impermissable threat, threatening not just pig blood but Our Democracy. With military-age men experienced in the use of a firearm and ideologically "disinformed" to not trust our benevolent overlords, not only do the feds get the benefit of the doubt from all normies and newswatchers, but they have half a case. With women, what? You had to shoot that woman through a window before she threw you to the ground and peed on you, shouting "house on fire, house on fire, put it out, put it out"?

  76. anon[412] • Disclaimer says:

    Like any other social-control stimulus, advertising or whatever, serial killers’ effects decayed.

    https://ia803104.us.archive.org/19/items/ProgrammedToKillDavidMcGowan/Programmed_to_Kill-David_McGowan.pdf

    So CIA replaced them with school shooters. They could be mass-produced and renewed the amorphous dread to justify increased repressive capacity. More than Psycho, Manson was the real rollout of the scare, and Tom O’Neill put Manson together with CIA spooks Reeve Whitson, Jolly West, and Sidney Gottlieb.

    McGowan set out compelling evidence of a program for serial murderer production. They served two functions: as a strategy of tension, and as a catchall perp to explain political murders.

  77. @JimDandy
    @Reg Cæsar

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @kaganovitch, @That Would Be Telling

    And if he had gone into that school with a set of Japanese steak knives would Ginsu have to file for bankruptcy?

    Heh, but Remington’s bankruptcy was due to (((private equity))) looting including a sharp drop in the already dubious quality of their products. They also all but completely missed out on the wave of handgun purchases for ever better concealed carry regimes in the states, they made a M1911 version but that wouldn’t earn much and very late in the game tried to revive a compact and stylish old gun model of their’s but the copies for sale to mere citizens were garbage compared to what they sent out to the (corrupt anyway) gun press.

    The settlement recently made for Sandy Hook was by one or more insurance companies holding the bag of the old defunct corporation, which they may well regret as we hear a lawsuit is being filed about the Buffalo shooting on the same sorts of grounds. As it is, “Biden” is being at least a bit smart in going after the gun manufacturing and sales part of the ecosystem instead of getting bad press from the ATF murderizing gun owners and gun store owners like they did starting in the early 1970s after the Nixon sugar price supports put an end to industrial scale moonshine production.

  78. @That Would Be Telling
    @kaganovitch


    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.
     

    And for me the iconic example of that was the 1965-1974 The F.B.I. TV series which I clearly remember the last few years of in its first run (and which I now discover was a totally Jewish production).

    Something we might factor into timelines is how for the less propagandized and better able to accept real life horror part of the population the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco. Which happened around the time the Ruby Ridge trial was held that exonerated the victims of FBI Hostage "Rescue" Team member Lon Horiuchi.

    Actually, this probably doesn't make a difference, that the fact the FBI was openly running a death squad should be a deterrent to crime. The stark incompetence J.Ross mentions started to become very clear very early in this century and that might fritter it away. After 9/11 we certainly got the message "you're on your own" loud and clear, which is reflected in thing like gun purchases and perhaps survivalism 2.0, "preppers," I don't know the timeline of that.

    Replies: @prosa123, @JimDandy, @duncsbaby

    The F.B.I. has made it the law that they must be allowed to ok any script that mentions them.

    Erik Striker:

    A little known law passed in 1954 at the urging of then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover makes it illegal to display the FBI seal, the FBI initials, and the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” in commercial popular culture without expressed permission from the Bureau’s propaganda office, the Investigative Publicity and Public Affairs Unit (IPPAU).

    ▲▼In order to obtain permission to portray the FBI on film, writers and producers must give propaganda agents full veto power over their content.

    ▲▼A cache of documents obtained in 2017 by journalists under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) found that the FBI uses this power liberally to sanitize its image. Various other federal agencies like the CIA and ICE do not have this power.

    ▲▼In 2010 terrorism thriller Unthinkable, the IPPAU forced producers to cut a scene showing FBI and CIA agents torturing a man together. In the “revised” version, the CIA agent still tortures the man, but laughably, the FBI agent present protests against the action the entire time, even citing the Geneva Convention as reason for refusing to participate.

    ▲▼The FBI sends “advisors” to rewrite scripts in all productions about them, often cutting out instances of them violating people’s civil rights, talking down to local cops, or engaging in various heinous activities. The result is preferential media treatment most law enforcement groups do not enjoy: the popular portrayal of every single FBI agent as a hero saving the world while we sleep without ever needing to break any rules is deliberately constructed fantasy.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @JimDandy

    If the media really wanted to deal with this issue they'd do like The President's Analyst; quoting Wikipedia for details I forgot or didn't notice when I watched it long after Hoover's death (our vacuum cleaners were from Sears):


    Psychiatrist Dr. Sidney Schaefer is chosen by the U.S. government to act as the president's top-secret personal psychoanalyst, from a referral by Don Masters, a Central Enquiries Agency (CEA) assassin who vetted Schaefer while undergoing his own psychoanalysis. The decision to choose Schaefer is against the advice of Henry Lux, the diminutive director of the all-male Federal Bureau of Regulation (FBR). ("Lux" resembles "Electrolux," which like "Hoover", was once a famous make of vacuum cleaner.)
     
    On the other hand, we're certainly now in a "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime" state so poking this beast is probably ill advised. And for now unthinkable after they played such a big role in kneecaping Trump's presidency.
    , @Joe S.Walker
    @JimDandy

    I'd have liked to see the FBI advisor who had to read the scripts for Twin Peaks.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Anonymous
    @JimDandy

    So that's why the FBI has or had such an aura around it. The most iconic FBI related scene for me:

    https://youtu.be/LlC0yEH1uUc

    That being said, they do have quite high standards for entry, from memory.

    Damn, McTiernan had a few of the greatest 80s action movies. Predator and Die Hard. Hunt for Red October. If he had a Tarantino-esque career resurgence I wonded what he might have done. His greatest movies are up there with James Cameron's in the public conscience. The latter's sustained volume though.

    https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0001532/filmotype/director?ref_=m_nmfm_1

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  79. @BB753
    The rise of the serial killer was linked to the Vietnam war and the Phoenix Program (see Doug Valentine's book The Phoenix Program). It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS and other drugs to perform unspeakable acts of cruelty, torture and murder in order to terrorize the Vietnamese population supporting the Viet Cong.
    After these brain-damaged vets returned to the US, they continued to do what they've been taught to do, but this time on the American population, often with the cooperation of intelligence agencies, the police and the drug cartels, for various reasons ( for experimentation purposes, to terrorize the American population, to do hits for the police or the cartels, or just randomly in their spare time).
    If you read Dave McGowan's Programmed to Kill you'll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Pincher Martin, @JohnnyWalker123, @duncsbaby

    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    A list of some of the most famous serial killers who began killing in the late nineteen-sixties and early nineteen-seventies and their relationship (if any) to the U.S. military.

    Dean Corll (The Candy Man) – Drafted in 1964 and served less than ten months before he was granted an honorable discharge at his request for family reasons.

    Ted Bundy – no military service.

    John Wayne Gacy – no military service.

    Kenneth Bianchi & Angelo Buono (Hillside Stranglers) – no known military service.

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) – three years in U.S. Army (1971-74). Stationed in South Korea, not Vietnam.

    Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) – four years in U.S. Air Force (1966-70)

    John Paul Knowles (The Casanova Killer) – no known military service

    Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer) – drafted into U.S. Army in 1967 and served one tour in Vietnam. While he boasted of “grotesque combat exploits, such as “beheading mama-sans and nailing their heads to trees as a warning to the Vietcong” and engaging in cannibalism; in reality he never served in a combat position.”

    Herbert Mullin – no military service.

    Edmund Kemper (The Co-ed Killer) – no military service.

    Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker) – One-year enlistment (1957) in the U.S. Army Reserves.

    Randy Kraft (The Scorecard Killer) – served two years stateside in U.S. Air Force (1967-69); discharged after announcing to his superiors he was homosexual.

    Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer) – served in U.S. Army from 1961 to 1964, went AWOL and was given a medical discharge for mental issues.

    Juan Corona – no military service.

    Donald Harvey – no military service.

    Samuel Little – no military service.

    Ottis Toole – no known military service.

    Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento) – no military service.

    Joseph Paul Franklin – no known military service.

    Gerald Gallego – no military service.

    Joseph DeAngelo (The Golden State Killer) – enlisted in U.S. Navy in 1964 and served 22 months on a ship in the Vietnam theater of Operation.

    Roger Kibbe (The I-5 Killer) – no known military service.

    ________

    So of the 23 men listed above, only eight served in the military and of those only two served in Vietnam. Even if I missed a handful of those who served because of incomplete records or shoddy research, that doesn’t seem to back up your theory.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Thanks there were more like David Carpenter no military service Zebra killers and I’m sure others. Plus Vietnam ended 50 years ago.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @JimDandy
    @Pincher Martin

    Signs point to Zodiac Killer being a vet.

    , @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    It's not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
    To your list I'd say it's pretty incomplete. And not all serial killers served in Vietnam, of course. Also, look also for the police/ political connections. Gacy had both, Bundy the latter. Berkowitz was an auxiliary policeman too.
    Here are some of the most infamous:

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

  80. @Pincher Martin
    @Anon

    Don't forget DNA identification which can be done through blood, semen, urine, sweat, hair or skin. Smart killers today almost have to dispose of the body so that it is never found. Or at least destroy it (and perhaps even the crime scene) through burning, submersion, or acid so that there's little chance their DNA can be found in its proximity.

    BTW, the majority of serial killers have usually preyed on vulnerable populations who often meet strangers (transients, prostitutes, travelers, etc.) in areas not known for their strong security systems.

    Replies: @Alden

    I watched one of those true crime stories. The cameras that followed the cars exonerated the boyfriend and caught the killer’s truck in a parking lot 400 miles away.

    Oakland Ca . Young man picked up girlfriend at her family home. As soon as his car hit the nearest business street cameras picked them up. Then parking the car in a Walgreens parking kit. The couple walking in the Street. Entering a bar. In the bar. Leaving the bar with a friend. Getting into the friend’s car. Walgreens parking lot. Getting out of friends car into boyfriends car. Sitting in the car for a while . CarLeaving the parking lot.

    7AM next morning the maintenance crew found the woman’s raped and murdered body in a city park. Boyfriend the obvious suspect right?

    No boyfriend explained she wanted to take the bus because they both had too much to drink. He insisted he was okay to drive and streets were empty at1am and he wasn’t going to wait for a once an hour bus.

    She insisted on not driving with him and taking the bus. So he dropped her at the bus stop. And parked across the street in front of a bank. Left the car door unlocked and told her to wake him up when she got tired of waiting for a bus.

    He quickly went to sleep and woke up around 6 am and went home.

    There is was all on cameras Argument in Walgreens parking lot. Her getting out of the car at the bus stop. Him parking the car in front of the bank and other cameras. And staying in the car all night long. Completely Innocent.

    None of the cameras had a clear view of the bus stop. But did get a clear of a red pick up and license plate that drove by the bus stop twice and stopped the third time.

    License plate entered into a search system. And a few months later the red pick up was found in a parking lot near San Diego. Murderer arrested and convicted. Unfortunately the young woman was still dead.

    Safer to drive home drunk at 1 am than wait for a bus. Killer was Hispanic.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Thanks: Pincher Martin
    • Replies: @Rooster15
    @Alden

    You make a valid point. I believe the prevalence of cameras and the overall security state have had a big impact on serial killers. The authorities can track your movement through your phone, newer car electronic systems, cameras that record license plates, etc. Think about all the ring doorbell monitors in your neighborhood and security cameras on just about every commercial building. The forensics they use has also greatly improved over the years. I think nowadays, many of the would-be serial killers are caught before they reach that level.

  81. @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.
     
    A list of some of the most famous serial killers who began killing in the late nineteen-sixties and early nineteen-seventies and their relationship (if any) to the U.S. military.

    Dean Corll (The Candy Man) - Drafted in 1964 and served less than ten months before he was granted an honorable discharge at his request for family reasons.

    Ted Bundy - no military service.

    John Wayne Gacy - no military service.

    Kenneth Bianchi & Angelo Buono (Hillside Stranglers) - no known military service.

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) - three years in U.S. Army (1971-74). Stationed in South Korea, not Vietnam.

    Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) - four years in U.S. Air Force (1966-70)

    John Paul Knowles (The Casanova Killer) - no known military service

    Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer) - drafted into U.S. Army in 1967 and served one tour in Vietnam. While he boasted of "grotesque combat exploits, such as "beheading mama-sans and nailing their heads to trees as a warning to the Vietcong" and engaging in cannibalism; in reality he never served in a combat position."

    Herbert Mullin - no military service.

    Edmund Kemper (The Co-ed Killer) - no military service.

    Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker) - One-year enlistment (1957) in the U.S. Army Reserves.

    Randy Kraft (The Scorecard Killer) - served two years stateside in U.S. Air Force (1967-69); discharged after announcing to his superiors he was homosexual.

    Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer) - served in U.S. Army from 1961 to 1964, went AWOL and was given a medical discharge for mental issues.

    Juan Corona - no military service.

    Donald Harvey - no military service.

    Samuel Little - no military service.

    Ottis Toole - no known military service.

    Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento) - no military service.

    Joseph Paul Franklin - no known military service.

    Gerald Gallego - no military service.

    Joseph DeAngelo (The Golden State Killer) - enlisted in U.S. Navy in 1964 and served 22 months on a ship in the Vietnam theater of Operation.

    Roger Kibbe (The I-5 Killer) - no known military service.

    ________

    So of the 23 men listed above, only eight served in the military and of those only two served in Vietnam. Even if I missed a handful of those who served because of incomplete records or shoddy research, that doesn't seem to back up your theory.

    Replies: @Alden, @JimDandy, @BB753

    Thanks there were more like David Carpenter no military service Zebra killers and I’m sure others. Plus Vietnam ended 50 years ago.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Alden

    Yeah, I'm just not buying the Vietnam/Phoenix Program connection.

    David Carpenter was a piece of work, wasn't he?

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

  82. @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.
     
    A list of some of the most famous serial killers who began killing in the late nineteen-sixties and early nineteen-seventies and their relationship (if any) to the U.S. military.

    Dean Corll (The Candy Man) - Drafted in 1964 and served less than ten months before he was granted an honorable discharge at his request for family reasons.

    Ted Bundy - no military service.

    John Wayne Gacy - no military service.

    Kenneth Bianchi & Angelo Buono (Hillside Stranglers) - no known military service.

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) - three years in U.S. Army (1971-74). Stationed in South Korea, not Vietnam.

    Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) - four years in U.S. Air Force (1966-70)

    John Paul Knowles (The Casanova Killer) - no known military service

    Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer) - drafted into U.S. Army in 1967 and served one tour in Vietnam. While he boasted of "grotesque combat exploits, such as "beheading mama-sans and nailing their heads to trees as a warning to the Vietcong" and engaging in cannibalism; in reality he never served in a combat position."

    Herbert Mullin - no military service.

    Edmund Kemper (The Co-ed Killer) - no military service.

    Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker) - One-year enlistment (1957) in the U.S. Army Reserves.

    Randy Kraft (The Scorecard Killer) - served two years stateside in U.S. Air Force (1967-69); discharged after announcing to his superiors he was homosexual.

    Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer) - served in U.S. Army from 1961 to 1964, went AWOL and was given a medical discharge for mental issues.

    Juan Corona - no military service.

    Donald Harvey - no military service.

    Samuel Little - no military service.

    Ottis Toole - no known military service.

    Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento) - no military service.

    Joseph Paul Franklin - no known military service.

    Gerald Gallego - no military service.

    Joseph DeAngelo (The Golden State Killer) - enlisted in U.S. Navy in 1964 and served 22 months on a ship in the Vietnam theater of Operation.

    Roger Kibbe (The I-5 Killer) - no known military service.

    ________

    So of the 23 men listed above, only eight served in the military and of those only two served in Vietnam. Even if I missed a handful of those who served because of incomplete records or shoddy research, that doesn't seem to back up your theory.

    Replies: @Alden, @JimDandy, @BB753

    Signs point to Zodiac Killer being a vet.

  83. @Yngvar

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitchcock’s hugely influential 1960 movie Psycho, often thought as the founder of the “slasher pic” genre, played a role in this real life phenomenon, although how to measure that is beyond me.
     
    I doubt that. Killing isn't easy. The physicality of it, the act, the smells, doesn't show in movies.
    Serial killers have a mindset.

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I doubt that. Killing isn’t easy. The physicality of it, the act, the smells, doesn’t show in movies.
    Serial killers have a mindset.

    You have a point, because those who hunt game for food also experience that physicality of it, it’s indeed not in the movies, and it can get intense.

    And we have a mindset including “we’re going to be eating some tasty [fill in the blank] later.” Or take hunting coyotes or I assume feral pigs to keep their population down, it’s bad form to just leave the body lying wherever. But maybe that’s different than where and when it did it in the farming part of the Midwest.

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.

    Never got a chance to hunt big game but that also involves exhausting work to get the deer or bigger animal back home. If my father currently had a sedentary job and lifestyle he’d start an exercise program before hunting season began. So you may also have a good point there.

    I suspect few hunters also became serial killers but that’s mostly a guess.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @That Would Be Telling



    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.

     

    Never got a chance to hunt big game but that also involves exhausting work to get the deer or bigger animal back home. If my father currently had a sedentary job and lifestyle he’d start an exercise program before hunting season began. So you may also have a good point there.

    I suspect few hunters also became serial killers but that’s mostly a guess.
     
    There are definite parallels. However, the two all timers who disposed of their victims' bodies typically did so by first luring the victims into their own homes (Gacy and Dahmer) where disposing of the remains would be a more controlled process.

    Dahmer ritualized the process by removing some flesh for consumption and stripping the rest from the bones with chemical processes to yield trophies. Dahmer's trophies are an analog to hunters' trophies.

    Gacy was fat and nevertheless dug graves, but did so within the four corners of his own home. An exception was paying one of his young construction workers to dig a hole for a barbecue pit, which he later used as a grave for a victim but he constructed the pit over the victim anyway likely to disguise the grave. He more or less ran out of room under his house after victim number 29, which led to increasing carelessness (i.e., releasing a rape and kidnap victim he had drugged back into Chicago, selecting victims outside of gay cruising venues, transporting bodies to a bridge over the Des Planes river and throwing them into the river). IIRC, Gacy was upset when the police started discovering and removing the bodies from under his home because he felt that they were his property and that the police had no right to disturb his property.
  84. @prosa123
    @That Would Be Telling

    the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco

    Children are a different story, but please explain to me, in detail, why the women's lives were any more valuable than the men's lives. Or why the women were more innocent. Of course you can't provide any explanation whatsoever because there is none.
    Well, okay, like way too many men you probably think that infantilizing women will get them to drop their panties for you. News flash: it doesn't.

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

    Good for your comment about men’s lives being as valuable as women’s and kids.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
  85. @That Would Be Telling
    @Yngvar


    I doubt that. Killing isn’t easy. The physicality of it, the act, the smells, doesn’t show in movies.
    Serial killers have a mindset.
     
    You have a point, because those who hunt game for food also experience that physicality of it, it's indeed not in the movies, and it can get intense.

    And we have a mindset including "we're going to be eating some tasty [fill in the blank] later." Or take hunting coyotes or I assume feral pigs to keep their population down, it's bad form to just leave the body lying wherever. But maybe that's different than where and when it did it in the farming part of the Midwest.

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.
     
    Never got a chance to hunt big game but that also involves exhausting work to get the deer or bigger animal back home. If my father currently had a sedentary job and lifestyle he'd start an exercise program before hunting season began. So you may also have a good point there.

    I suspect few hunters also became serial killers but that's mostly a guess.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    My theory for the decline is fat: Victims has to be dragged to a hastily dug grave. Both dragging and digging is exhausting, thus less of it.

    Never got a chance to hunt big game but that also involves exhausting work to get the deer or bigger animal back home. If my father currently had a sedentary job and lifestyle he’d start an exercise program before hunting season began. So you may also have a good point there.

    I suspect few hunters also became serial killers but that’s mostly a guess.

    There are definite parallels. However, the two all timers who disposed of their victims’ bodies typically did so by first luring the victims into their own homes (Gacy and Dahmer) where disposing of the remains would be a more controlled process.

    Dahmer ritualized the process by removing some flesh for consumption and stripping the rest from the bones with chemical processes to yield trophies. Dahmer’s trophies are an analog to hunters’ trophies.

    Gacy was fat and nevertheless dug graves, but did so within the four corners of his own home. An exception was paying one of his young construction workers to dig a hole for a barbecue pit, which he later used as a grave for a victim but he constructed the pit over the victim anyway likely to disguise the grave. He more or less ran out of room under his house after victim number 29, which led to increasing carelessness (i.e., releasing a rape and kidnap victim he had drugged back into Chicago, selecting victims outside of gay cruising venues, transporting bodies to a bridge over the Des Planes river and throwing them into the river). IIRC, Gacy was upset when the police started discovering and removing the bodies from under his home because he felt that they were his property and that the police had no right to disturb his property.

  86. @J.Ross
    The phenomenon of the serial killer doesn’t take up as much space in our brains as in, say, the 1990s

    In the 90s I deliberately avoided the topic out of disgust with how every single mass media product seemed to be celebrating serial killers (I also avoided Baywatch simply because of its popularity. Sometimes my reflexive contrarianism is indefensible). They're not cranking out a serial killer movie and book every ten seconds now, so, yeah, not so much mental space indeed, although I notice that three of the more celebrated recent revived-dinosaur-media products (Dexter, Hannibal, Barry) are sympathetic portrayals of serial killers.
    Manhunter is one of the best movies of the 80s despite having the factuality and relevance of Flash Gordon, and it directly spawned two more beloved entertainments, Twin Peaks and the X Files, plus more which are less remembered. They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey. One aspect of the serial killer media phenomenon was straightforward domestic propaganda. The propagandists have moved on to more insidious and totalitarian forms of propaganda in social media and direct control of newsmedia.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Stan Adams

    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

  87. @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    If you read Dave McGowan’s Programmed to Kill you’ll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.
     
    A list of some of the most famous serial killers who began killing in the late nineteen-sixties and early nineteen-seventies and their relationship (if any) to the U.S. military.

    Dean Corll (The Candy Man) - Drafted in 1964 and served less than ten months before he was granted an honorable discharge at his request for family reasons.

    Ted Bundy - no military service.

    John Wayne Gacy - no military service.

    Kenneth Bianchi & Angelo Buono (Hillside Stranglers) - no known military service.

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) - three years in U.S. Army (1971-74). Stationed in South Korea, not Vietnam.

    Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) - four years in U.S. Air Force (1966-70)

    John Paul Knowles (The Casanova Killer) - no known military service

    Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer) - drafted into U.S. Army in 1967 and served one tour in Vietnam. While he boasted of "grotesque combat exploits, such as "beheading mama-sans and nailing their heads to trees as a warning to the Vietcong" and engaging in cannibalism; in reality he never served in a combat position."

    Herbert Mullin - no military service.

    Edmund Kemper (The Co-ed Killer) - no military service.

    Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker) - One-year enlistment (1957) in the U.S. Army Reserves.

    Randy Kraft (The Scorecard Killer) - served two years stateside in U.S. Air Force (1967-69); discharged after announcing to his superiors he was homosexual.

    Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer) - served in U.S. Army from 1961 to 1964, went AWOL and was given a medical discharge for mental issues.

    Juan Corona - no military service.

    Donald Harvey - no military service.

    Samuel Little - no military service.

    Ottis Toole - no known military service.

    Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento) - no military service.

    Joseph Paul Franklin - no known military service.

    Gerald Gallego - no military service.

    Joseph DeAngelo (The Golden State Killer) - enlisted in U.S. Navy in 1964 and served 22 months on a ship in the Vietnam theater of Operation.

    Roger Kibbe (The I-5 Killer) - no known military service.

    ________

    So of the 23 men listed above, only eight served in the military and of those only two served in Vietnam. Even if I missed a handful of those who served because of incomplete records or shoddy research, that doesn't seem to back up your theory.

    Replies: @Alden, @JimDandy, @BB753

    It’s not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
    To your list I’d say it’s pretty incomplete. And not all serial killers served in Vietnam, of course. Also, look also for the police/ political connections. Gacy had both, Bundy the latter. Berkowitz was an auxiliary policeman too.
    Here are some of the most infamous:

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @BB753


    It’s not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
     
    That's all well and good, but I don't see how you explain the fact that lots of these guys were draft eligible during the Vietnam conflict, and therefore their self-selection for military service is suspect at best.

    And only a few cited were in combat arms - maybe someone who got through Gunny Hartman's boot camp experience is one thing, but am I to believe that Uncle Sam trained up an aircraft groundcrew technician to be a soulless killer?

    Replies: @BB753

    , @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    To your list I’d say it’s pretty incomplete.
     
    To the degree it is incomplete, I'd argue it doesn't favor one side or the other. I went through a list of known serial killers active either in the years during the Vietnam War and the Phoenix Program or soon afterwards, and I then chose the most infamous and prolific of them without regard to what I would find in their backgrounds.

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).
     
    Rader, DeAngelo, and Alcaca are all on my list. Only one of them to my knowledge got anywhere close to Vietnam.

    Israel Keyes wasn't even alive when the Vietnam War ended.

    David Parker Ray is a strange case since he was never convicted of murder. While it's perfectly believable that he was a serial killer, and he was quite clearly a sick individual, if we are going to use rumors to test this thesis, then I should point out that it's been suggested that Ray was a murderer back in the 1950s, before the U.S. involvement in Vietnam even began and a decade before the Phoenix Program was founded.

    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991. The Phoenix Program ended in 1972 and the Vietnam War soon afterward. If you are programmed to kill, why wait more than a decade to start your murder spree?

    Replies: @Perspective, @BB753

  88. The supposition of this article is perfectly reasonable, but I’d be equally inclined to entertain the exact opposite thesis-

    There are more serial killers than ever before, and they have just gotten better at getting away with it, in part, because they employ a smarter methodology, (less localized, more spread-out all over) and that law enforcement has gotten worse at catching them.

    Check-out the documentary “The Killing Season”.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6064676/

    They cover some interesting ground on this topic, and as they approach the end of the series, they present some fascinating evidence related to the almost unbelievable number of murdered women that are found along the sides of the national interstate system roadways.

    The hypothesis being that many serial killers are truckers, and by picking women up in one state, killing them, and dropping their bodies in another, distant state, that many of the identities are never discovered.

    Also, many of them are probably “lot lizard” prostitutes, “other” types of hookers, drug addicts, runaways, hitch hikers (or just overly trusting pedestrians), drifters, women/girls just trying to get a free ride across the country, etc.

    When you examine the thousands of missing persons, the thousands of unidentified murder victim bodies found, and the map of where they are found, it’s makes a pretty compelling case.

    My point is that after decades of watching other serial killers get caught, thru forensics, DNA, proximity to victims, or bodies found, etc., one could theorize that modern serial killers have just gotten smarter about how they go about their depravity.

    In part, BECAUSE every other type of depravity has markedly INCREASED, so it makes it a safer assumption, that this type of depravity has increased as well…IMHO.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Dr. Rock

    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can't recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don't think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.

    Replies: @Dr. Rock, @Bernard

  89. @anonymous
    Law enforcement was shockingly incompetent/unprepared. It's mind-blowing to read what the GSK did without getting caught.

    Or the major one in Texas where nobody even noticed for a while.

    Or Gacy.


    You couldn't get away with shit like that now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Wielgus, @Marquis

    One reason the GSK/EARONS wasn’t caught earlier was because through his first dozen rapes/ransackings he wasn’t even considered the biggest serial rapist in the area. There were a couple other ones doing similar things. I think one was called the Early Morning Rapist.

    That sort of goes to Steve’s point that the late 60’s through the 70’s produced a lot of this type of activity.

    I think the decline of serial killers it two-fold. The rise of DNA making it easier to track them. And the tougher on crime era. If you look through 70’s era serial killers on wikipedia it is shocking how many had been caught for rape, sexual assault, assault, attempted murder, etc.. and served 2-4 yrs somewhere and then got released. Sound familiar?

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Marquis


    One reason the GSK/EARONS wasn’t caught earlier was because through his first dozen rapes/ransackings he wasn’t even considered the biggest serial rapist in the area. There were a couple other ones doing similar things. I think one was called the Early Morning Rapist.
     
    I don't think that's true. While the EAR's initial rapes were thought by some police officers to be the work of another rapist, the EAR's attacks were soon recognized as distinctive within a few months of his initial rape in June, 1976. His crimes were thus front-page news in Sacramento in the first few months of his crime spree.

    Yet that didn't help local authorities to catch him from late 1976 to 1979, when he then disappeared from northern California. Even if they had recognized by the second or third rape that they had a serial rapist, I don't think it would have helped them in any way to capture DeAngelo.

    When the EAR went south and became the ONS, he wasn't caught for the more obvious reason that he was much more cautious and changed his modus operandi.

    First, there was his relocation from a tighter range in northern California to a more dispersed range in southern California (it's a three-hour drive from Goleta to Irvine). Thus when the EAR spread out to Davis, Stockton and eventually the Bay Area, the new crimes were usually recognized immediately by local law enforcement as belonging to the EAR.

    But when DeAngelo moved south and became the ONS, the geographical and chronological dispersion was so great that sometimes law enforcement didn't even recognize that a new murder belonged to the ONS (let alone the EAR). There was no clear connection between two murders in Goleta in 1979 and two murders in Orange County in 1980 and a then another murder five years later in Irvine.

    Then there was the change from DeAngelo being a serial rapist to a serial murderer, probably because it helped him evade any connection with his crimes up north. No one was left alone to report on his voice or the size of his penis or how long he stayed in the house - all these details which would've helped the investigators understand that the EAR was now active in southern California.

    Finally, he stopped leaving the bindings behind and (for the most part) started bludgeoning people with weapons he took from the murder scenes rather than shooting them. He almost certainly did this to provide him with more time before the discovery of the bodies.

    If you look through 70’s era serial killers on wikipedia it is shocking how many had been caught for rape, sexual assault, assault, attempted murder, etc.. and served 2-4 yrs somewhere and then got released. Sound familiar?
     
    Yep.
  90. Check out the Texas Monthly article on Dean Corll, who killed 30+ teenage boys in Houston 50 years ago.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Ben tillman

    I'm surprised that man isn't as infamous as Bundy or Gacy or Son of Sam. The details of his murders are horrific, among the worst I've ever read. Not just what he did to those young boys, but how he enlisted a couple of others into being his accomplices.

    Replies: @Feryl

  91. @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    It's not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
    To your list I'd say it's pretty incomplete. And not all serial killers served in Vietnam, of course. Also, look also for the police/ political connections. Gacy had both, Bundy the latter. Berkowitz was an auxiliary policeman too.
    Here are some of the most infamous:

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

    It’s not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.

    That’s all well and good, but I don’t see how you explain the fact that lots of these guys were draft eligible during the Vietnam conflict, and therefore their self-selection for military service is suspect at best.

    And only a few cited were in combat arms – maybe someone who got through Gunny Hartman’s boot camp experience is one thing, but am I to believe that Uncle Sam trained up an aircraft groundcrew technician to be a soulless killer?

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "am I to believe that Uncle Sam trained up an aircraft groundcrew technician to be a soulless killer?"

    Uncle Sam performed all kinds of strange experiments : MK Ultra, Phoenix, etc
    After both world wars, the military found out that soldiers weren't that eager to shoot people and took action. See Dave Grossman and S.L.A. Marshall's work. Later, I'll try to dig up info about an army doctor who "denied" he was studying psychopaths in order to train them. It made headline news.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

  92. @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    It's not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
    To your list I'd say it's pretty incomplete. And not all serial killers served in Vietnam, of course. Also, look also for the police/ political connections. Gacy had both, Bundy the latter. Berkowitz was an auxiliary policeman too.
    Here are some of the most infamous:

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

    To your list I’d say it’s pretty incomplete.

    To the degree it is incomplete, I’d argue it doesn’t favor one side or the other. I went through a list of known serial killers active either in the years during the Vietnam War and the Phoenix Program or soon afterwards, and I then chose the most infamous and prolific of them without regard to what I would find in their backgrounds.

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).

    Rader, DeAngelo, and Alcaca are all on my list. Only one of them to my knowledge got anywhere close to Vietnam.

    Israel Keyes wasn’t even alive when the Vietnam War ended.

    David Parker Ray is a strange case since he was never convicted of murder. While it’s perfectly believable that he was a serial killer, and he was quite clearly a sick individual, if we are going to use rumors to test this thesis, then I should point out that it’s been suggested that Ray was a murderer back in the 1950s, before the U.S. involvement in Vietnam even began and a decade before the Phoenix Program was founded.

    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991. The Phoenix Program ended in 1972 and the Vietnam War soon afterward. If you are programmed to kill, why wait more than a decade to start your murder spree?

    • Replies: @Perspective
    @Pincher Martin


    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991.
     
    Somewhat salient to this is that all the above people were diagnosed with or suspected of having schizoid PD. It seems that schizoid PD can induce sadistic and narcissistic behavior in some individuals that have this PD. This condition is common enough among serial killers that in 1980 a slasher movie called 'Schizoid' was made about a schizoid serial killer.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Alden

    , @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
    Listen, most of the stories you've read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
    1) they're not loners
    2) they have accomplices
    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
    5) they're often linked to some cult
    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
    7) when they're caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn't commit, which serves the police and FBI
    8) they don't just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    All the nefarious activities so-called serial killers indulged in are still extant: targeted killings, drug running, snuff films, human trafficking, etc.
    It's just that the actors and the industry have evolved.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Pincher Martin, @Pincher Martin

  93. @Ben tillman
    Check out the Texas Monthly article on Dean Corll, who killed 30+ teenage boys in Houston 50 years ago.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    I’m surprised that man isn’t as infamous as Bundy or Gacy or Son of Sam. The details of his murders are horrific, among the worst I’ve ever read. Not just what he did to those young boys, but how he enlisted a couple of others into being his accomplices.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length. I understand that Corrl and Kraft inserted and broke items like glass tubes into urethras. Those three are to me the worst of the worst. Keep in mind too that these guys were aware of each other via news reports and true crime, Gacy read about Corrl and imitated him (although Gacy tended to be consumed by rage to the point that he killed victims faster than the other killers I mentioned).

    David Berkowitz seems sort of mundane compared to these guys, he just went up to people and shot them. In recent interviews it looks like Berkowitz has some level of regret that he couldn't control himself in the 70's. But the sex torturers? No conscience, no humanity. Pure evil.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  94. This would explain why there appeared to be a bumper crop of serial killers born between 1935 and 1955. One thing that stands out is that a high proportion of serial killers have schizophrenia and/or schizoid PD. I suspect that the Uvalde shooter had Schizoid PD, and it seems many of the deranged loner type mass shooters had this personality disorder as well.

  95. @JimDandy
    @That Would Be Telling

    The F.B.I. has made it the law that they must be allowed to ok any script that mentions them.

    Erik Striker:

    A little known law passed in 1954 at the urging of then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover makes it illegal to display the FBI seal, the FBI initials, and the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” in commercial popular culture without expressed permission from the Bureau’s propaganda office, the Investigative Publicity and Public Affairs Unit (IPPAU).

    ▲▼In order to obtain permission to portray the FBI on film, writers and producers must give propaganda agents full veto power over their content.

    ▲▼A cache of documents obtained in 2017 by journalists under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) found that the FBI uses this power liberally to sanitize its image. Various other federal agencies like the CIA and ICE do not have this power.

    ▲▼In 2010 terrorism thriller Unthinkable, the IPPAU forced producers to cut a scene showing FBI and CIA agents torturing a man together. In the “revised” version, the CIA agent still tortures the man, but laughably, the FBI agent present protests against the action the entire time, even citing the Geneva Convention as reason for refusing to participate.

    ▲▼The FBI sends “advisors” to rewrite scripts in all productions about them, often cutting out instances of them violating people’s civil rights, talking down to local cops, or engaging in various heinous activities. The result is preferential media treatment most law enforcement groups do not enjoy: the popular portrayal of every single FBI agent as a hero saving the world while we sleep without ever needing to break any rules is deliberately constructed fantasy.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Joe S.Walker, @Anonymous

    If the media really wanted to deal with this issue they’d do like The President’s Analyst; quoting Wikipedia for details I forgot or didn’t notice when I watched it long after Hoover’s death (our vacuum cleaners were from Sears):

    Psychiatrist Dr. Sidney Schaefer is chosen by the U.S. government to act as the president’s top-secret personal psychoanalyst, from a referral by Don Masters, a Central Enquiries Agency (CEA) assassin who vetted Schaefer while undergoing his own psychoanalysis. The decision to choose Schaefer is against the advice of Henry Lux, the diminutive director of the all-male Federal Bureau of Regulation (FBR). (“Lux” resembles “Electrolux,” which like “Hoover”, was once a famous make of vacuum cleaner.)

    On the other hand, we’re certainly now in a “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime” state so poking this beast is probably ill advised. And for now unthinkable after they played such a big role in kneecaping Trump’s presidency.

  96. When I was a kid a girl who grew up a bit away was gang raped, sexually mutilated and killed by a small group of Satanist serial killers. If one has the stomach for this sort of thing look up “The Ripper Crew”.

    Today with the systemic reading of license plates their pattern would be detected pretty quick. Thank God. Plantir for the win.

    On edit: 23 and Me and Ancestry has fully sampled genomes on tens of millions of Americans. With genetic genealogy it is within our means to catch virtually every rapist in America. So why does the FBI not take their databases via Eminent Domaine?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Hodag

    The Ripper Crew is still a surprisingly unknown story. And there were links between them and Gacy--and a vast child sex ring that originated in Texas.

  97. @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    To your list I’d say it’s pretty incomplete.
     
    To the degree it is incomplete, I'd argue it doesn't favor one side or the other. I went through a list of known serial killers active either in the years during the Vietnam War and the Phoenix Program or soon afterwards, and I then chose the most infamous and prolific of them without regard to what I would find in their backgrounds.

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).
     
    Rader, DeAngelo, and Alcaca are all on my list. Only one of them to my knowledge got anywhere close to Vietnam.

    Israel Keyes wasn't even alive when the Vietnam War ended.

    David Parker Ray is a strange case since he was never convicted of murder. While it's perfectly believable that he was a serial killer, and he was quite clearly a sick individual, if we are going to use rumors to test this thesis, then I should point out that it's been suggested that Ray was a murderer back in the 1950s, before the U.S. involvement in Vietnam even began and a decade before the Phoenix Program was founded.

    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991. The Phoenix Program ended in 1972 and the Vietnam War soon afterward. If you are programmed to kill, why wait more than a decade to start your murder spree?

    Replies: @Perspective, @BB753

    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991.

    Somewhat salient to this is that all the above people were diagnosed with or suspected of having schizoid PD. It seems that schizoid PD can induce sadistic and narcissistic behavior in some individuals that have this PD. This condition is common enough among serial killers that in 1980 a slasher movie called ‘Schizoid’ was made about a schizoid serial killer.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Perspective

    I don't know about the specific diagnoses, but both Lake and Ng exhibited very obvious signs of mental illness and criminal behavior long before they enlisted in the military. Ramirez, who never enlisted, got the worst of both genetics and the environment for brewing up a natural born killer.

    Replies: @Perspective

    , @Alden
    @Perspective

    Ramirez father was an El Paso police officer. And he was caught by mucho macho Hispanic men when he tried to grab another woman and her car.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  98. @Marquis
    @anonymous

    One reason the GSK/EARONS wasn't caught earlier was because through his first dozen rapes/ransackings he wasn't even considered the biggest serial rapist in the area. There were a couple other ones doing similar things. I think one was called the Early Morning Rapist.

    That sort of goes to Steve's point that the late 60's through the 70's produced a lot of this type of activity.

    I think the decline of serial killers it two-fold. The rise of DNA making it easier to track them. And the tougher on crime era. If you look through 70's era serial killers on wikipedia it is shocking how many had been caught for rape, sexual assault, assault, attempted murder, etc.. and served 2-4 yrs somewhere and then got released. Sound familiar?

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    One reason the GSK/EARONS wasn’t caught earlier was because through his first dozen rapes/ransackings he wasn’t even considered the biggest serial rapist in the area. There were a couple other ones doing similar things. I think one was called the Early Morning Rapist.

    I don’t think that’s true. While the EAR’s initial rapes were thought by some police officers to be the work of another rapist, the EAR’s attacks were soon recognized as distinctive within a few months of his initial rape in June, 1976. His crimes were thus front-page news in Sacramento in the first few months of his crime spree.

    Yet that didn’t help local authorities to catch him from late 1976 to 1979, when he then disappeared from northern California. Even if they had recognized by the second or third rape that they had a serial rapist, I don’t think it would have helped them in any way to capture DeAngelo.

    When the EAR went south and became the ONS, he wasn’t caught for the more obvious reason that he was much more cautious and changed his modus operandi.

    First, there was his relocation from a tighter range in northern California to a more dispersed range in southern California (it’s a three-hour drive from Goleta to Irvine). Thus when the EAR spread out to Davis, Stockton and eventually the Bay Area, the new crimes were usually recognized immediately by local law enforcement as belonging to the EAR.

    But when DeAngelo moved south and became the ONS, the geographical and chronological dispersion was so great that sometimes law enforcement didn’t even recognize that a new murder belonged to the ONS (let alone the EAR). There was no clear connection between two murders in Goleta in 1979 and two murders in Orange County in 1980 and a then another murder five years later in Irvine.

    Then there was the change from DeAngelo being a serial rapist to a serial murderer, probably because it helped him evade any connection with his crimes up north. No one was left alone to report on his voice or the size of his penis or how long he stayed in the house – all these details which would’ve helped the investigators understand that the EAR was now active in southern California.

    Finally, he stopped leaving the bindings behind and (for the most part) started bludgeoning people with weapons he took from the murder scenes rather than shooting them. He almost certainly did this to provide him with more time before the discovery of the bodies.

    If you look through 70’s era serial killers on wikipedia it is shocking how many had been caught for rape, sexual assault, assault, attempted murder, etc.. and served 2-4 yrs somewhere and then got released. Sound familiar?

    Yep.

  99. @JimDandy
    @That Would Be Telling

    The F.B.I. has made it the law that they must be allowed to ok any script that mentions them.

    Erik Striker:

    A little known law passed in 1954 at the urging of then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover makes it illegal to display the FBI seal, the FBI initials, and the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” in commercial popular culture without expressed permission from the Bureau’s propaganda office, the Investigative Publicity and Public Affairs Unit (IPPAU).

    ▲▼In order to obtain permission to portray the FBI on film, writers and producers must give propaganda agents full veto power over their content.

    ▲▼A cache of documents obtained in 2017 by journalists under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) found that the FBI uses this power liberally to sanitize its image. Various other federal agencies like the CIA and ICE do not have this power.

    ▲▼In 2010 terrorism thriller Unthinkable, the IPPAU forced producers to cut a scene showing FBI and CIA agents torturing a man together. In the “revised” version, the CIA agent still tortures the man, but laughably, the FBI agent present protests against the action the entire time, even citing the Geneva Convention as reason for refusing to participate.

    ▲▼The FBI sends “advisors” to rewrite scripts in all productions about them, often cutting out instances of them violating people’s civil rights, talking down to local cops, or engaging in various heinous activities. The result is preferential media treatment most law enforcement groups do not enjoy: the popular portrayal of every single FBI agent as a hero saving the world while we sleep without ever needing to break any rules is deliberately constructed fantasy.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Joe S.Walker, @Anonymous

    I’d have liked to see the FBI advisor who had to read the scripts for Twin Peaks.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Joe S.Walker

    I think the Twin Peaks vibe is an accurate description of current FBI personnel.

  100. It’s amusing to me to note that the trailing graph for ‘white/non-white’ works not just for serial killers, but for baby girls’ names.

    Where would all those poor brown folks be without us? The pathfinder race…

  101. @Gordo
    Reading a book about Peter Sutcliffe what was surprising was how poor police techniques and technology were when he did his murders from the late sixties to the early eighties, no police national computer and police 15 miles apart didn’t spot related murders because different county police forces didn’t talk to each other.

    Replies: @Joe S.Walker

    Peter Sutcliffe, aka the Yorkshire Ripper, was unusual in that his crimes were recognised as a series and widely publicised while they were still going on. In fact the Ripper was a huge news story here in Britain, I can remember the murders happening, and the hoax cassette tape that the police took for real and gave enormous publicity and manpower. Re the police’s handling of the case, the main problem was that they had vast amounts of raw data in physical form and no ready means of organising and sharing it. Nobody had ever made detailed observations of street prostitution in the north of England before, and they were amazed by how much of the business there was.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Joe S.Walker

    Is that the basis of the Red Riding novels?

    Replies: @Joe S.Walker

  102. @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Thanks there were more like David Carpenter no military service Zebra killers and I’m sure others. Plus Vietnam ended 50 years ago.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Yeah, I’m just not buying the Vietnam/Phoenix Program connection.

    David Carpenter was a piece of work, wasn’t he?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.

    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.

    Affirmative Action is my big beef with liberals. Not black on White crime. Because affirmative action affects all Whites. In every stage of their lives.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @J.Ross
    @Pincher Martin

    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on "GI Guinea Pigs."
    Two example projects from Phoenix:
    Steal from Vietnamese ammunition stocks, augment ("pop!") or damage every fifth round, then restore the stocks.
    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
    https://badgerhoundsupply.com/product/pp/

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  103. @Perspective
    @Pincher Martin


    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991.
     
    Somewhat salient to this is that all the above people were diagnosed with or suspected of having schizoid PD. It seems that schizoid PD can induce sadistic and narcissistic behavior in some individuals that have this PD. This condition is common enough among serial killers that in 1980 a slasher movie called 'Schizoid' was made about a schizoid serial killer.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Alden

    I don’t know about the specific diagnoses, but both Lake and Ng exhibited very obvious signs of mental illness and criminal behavior long before they enlisted in the military. Ramirez, who never enlisted, got the worst of both genetics and the environment for brewing up a natural born killer.

    • Replies: @Perspective
    @Pincher Martin

    Leonard Lake himself received a medical discharge from the military:
    "After attending Balboa High School, Lake enlisted in the United States Marine Corps in 1964.[6] He served two tours of duty in the Vietnam War as a radar electronics technician. During this period, Lake was first diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder.[7] After what was termed a "delusional breakdown" in Da Nang, he received psychotherapy and, in 1971, a medical discharge.[4]: 91 

    Lake settled in San Jose and enrolled at San Jose State University, but dropped out after one semester upon becoming enamored of the hippie lifestyle in San Francisco. He moved to a commune there, and married briefly in 1975. The marriage dissolved after his wife discovered that he was making and appearing in amateur pornographic movies, usually involving bondage or sadomasochism.[4]: 92 "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Lake

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  104. Just too many cameras and devices with GPS tracking. Even if the killer is totally random, eventually connections can be made by cell phone data or surveillance cameras. In the 70’s and 80’s you could go on a long run until you got sloppy or unlucky.

  105. @R.G. Camara
    The rise interest in serial killers has led to their downfall. There were always sick crazy people in the past who enjoyed killing lots of randos, but without a post-industrial professional police force with psychological data, no one had a name or term for them.

    Once "serial killer" became a meme people knew (Sapir-Whorf, Richard Dawkins, and George Orwell, take a bow), and it became stylized in news reports and movies, the first thing common folk think when they hear of multiple murders is "serial killer." Which of course leads to someone at the police force checking to see if it is a serial killer with serial hallmarks, which means the serial killer doesn't get away with so many killings.

    Perhaps the last true serial killer was Jeffrey Dahmer, who, since he was homosexual, had an easy time finding sad sack gays and chopping them up. Since this was pre-Gay Pride, the cops just ignored the connections as did the press. One awful tale has a teenage boy escaping from Dahmer, only for the cops to laughingly return him directly to Dahmer because Dahmer claimed it was his lover.

    Replies: @Corn

    Yup, a couple cops told Dahmer to take the boy home. Two or three women walking by expressed concern about the boy’s state. Coos told them to butt out, they had everything in hand

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Corn

    Nothing beats Gacy residing with multiple cops in a house which was also storing cadavers. That's not a glitch in the matrix, that's the Microsoft Something Went Wrong window.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  106. @Lion of the Blogosphere
    Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1529098712466837505

    Replies: @dearieme, @al gore rhythms, @Alden, @JohnnyWalker123, @Lurker

    About the anus and intestines. The lining is only one cell thick. So nutrition passing through can be absorbed And on the other side are receptor cells that grab every bit of nutrition passing by and process the food. Until syringes came along in the 20th century lots of medicines were administered rectally rather than orally because absorption was so fast.

    Condoms are useless against viruses. All they do is contain semen. Hopefully

    Lining of the vagina in contrast is about 28 cells thick. It’s like a fan belt. Layers going vertical horizontal and diagonal. Designed to stretch. And bathed in a continual anti septic fluid. Every medic learned this. And yet they babble about safe anal sex.

  107. @Bill Jones
    @Mr. Anon

    I agree.
    Who's got the time nowadays's to be a serial killer?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Who’s got the time nowadays’s to be a serial killer?

  108. @Pincher Martin
    @Alden

    Yeah, I'm just not buying the Vietnam/Phoenix Program connection.

    David Carpenter was a piece of work, wasn't he?

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.

    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.

    Affirmative Action is my big beef with liberals. Not black on White crime. Because affirmative action affects all Whites. In every stage of their lives.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Alden


    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.
     
    I don't believe any of Carpenter's murder victims were discovered in the Presidio or in the Marin Headlands.

    On the San Francisco side, I believe you are talking about the body found in Lands End, a murder that when first discovered was not originally assigned to Carpenter until DNA evidence proved his culpability decades later. I can't remember for sure, but Carpenter may not have even been a suspect in that murder until the DNA connection was made.

    Lands End is on the west side of the Sea Cliff neighborhood. It has that little muni golf course (Lincoln Park), which in spots has some of the most breathtaking views in all of San Francisco. It is also home to the Veteran's Hospital, Sutro Baths and what I think is the best museum in all of San Francisco (The Legion of Honor).

    Carpenter did attack the mother of one of those Beverly Hill's housewives in the Presidio in 1960 (before any of the murders Carpenter would later become famous for). That was back when the Presidio was still a federal military base. She was attacked viciously, and the incident probably would've ended in her death (because she knew Carpenter personally and could easily ID him) if a military policeman had not seen them drive down a deserted road and followed them. But as far as we know, Carpenter had not killed anyone before that attack in the Presidio.

    As for Carpenter's murders in Marin County, he killed his victims either near Mount Tamalpais, which is quite a bit inland from the Marin Headlands, or in the Point Reyes National Seashore park, which is in the north of the county.

    Two of his murders were in Santa Cruz's famous state parks. One was in an adjacent Putin park located in Santa Clara county.

    I read an excellent book about Carpenter's crimes by Robert Graysmith, the cartoonist at the San Francisco Chronicle who became famous for obsessing over the Zodiac murders and was played by Jake Gyllenhaal in the movie _Zodiac_. I've hiked in all those parks along the same trails (or what I believe were the same trails) Carpenter once hunted women on.

    https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1387668987l/105771.jpg


    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.
     
    She was a pretty girl, too. Carpenter lured that twenty-year-old to her death by promising to help buy her a car.

    https://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/3-heather-scaggs.jpg

    The beautiful seventeen-year-old Kelly Menjivar's death is the one that haunts me. Graysmith speculates that Carpenter lured her to her murder by promising to help her find a special birthday gift for her mother.

    http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/predators/david_carpenter/Anne-Kelly-Menjivar150.jpg

    Hard to believe that Carpenter is still alive today. He's 93 years old. That's a rare age for an old convict. He should have been put down decades ago. It's a moral sin he was not.

    Replies: @Alden

  109. @Perspective
    @Pincher Martin


    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991.
     
    Somewhat salient to this is that all the above people were diagnosed with or suspected of having schizoid PD. It seems that schizoid PD can induce sadistic and narcissistic behavior in some individuals that have this PD. This condition is common enough among serial killers that in 1980 a slasher movie called 'Schizoid' was made about a schizoid serial killer.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Alden

    Ramirez father was an El Paso police officer. And he was caught by mucho macho Hispanic men when he tried to grab another woman and her car.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alden

    Chicanos chased down the Night Stalker and practically beat him to death while waiting for the LAPD.

  110. @Alden
    @Perspective

    Ramirez father was an El Paso police officer. And he was caught by mucho macho Hispanic men when he tried to grab another woman and her car.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Chicanos chased down the Night Stalker and practically beat him to death while waiting for the LAPD.

  111. @Joe S.Walker
    @Gordo

    Peter Sutcliffe, aka the Yorkshire Ripper, was unusual in that his crimes were recognised as a series and widely publicised while they were still going on. In fact the Ripper was a huge news story here in Britain, I can remember the murders happening, and the hoax cassette tape that the police took for real and gave enormous publicity and manpower. Re the police's handling of the case, the main problem was that they had vast amounts of raw data in physical form and no ready means of organising and sharing it. Nobody had ever made detailed observations of street prostitution in the north of England before, and they were amazed by how much of the business there was.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Is that the basis of the Red Riding novels?

    • Replies: @Joe S.Walker
    @J.Ross

    Yes it is.

  112. @Corn
    @R.G. Camara

    Yup, a couple cops told Dahmer to take the boy home. Two or three women walking by expressed concern about the boy’s state. Coos told them to butt out, they had everything in hand

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Nothing beats Gacy residing with multiple cops in a house which was also storing cadavers. That’s not a glitch in the matrix, that’s the Microsoft Something Went Wrong window.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @J.Ross

    What are you referring to? That cops went to his house to interview him while there were bodies buried in the crawlspace?

  113. @prosa123
    @That Would Be Telling

    the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco

    Children are a different story, but please explain to me, in detail, why the women's lives were any more valuable than the men's lives. Or why the women were more innocent. Of course you can't provide any explanation whatsoever because there is none.
    Well, okay, like way too many men you probably think that infantilizing women will get them to drop their panties for you. News flash: it doesn't.

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

    Easy. Every murder victim felled by the illegitimate terrorist government is ostensibly an impermissable threat, threatening not just pig blood but Our Democracy. With military-age men experienced in the use of a firearm and ideologically “disinformed” to not trust our benevolent overlords, not only do the feds get the benefit of the doubt from all normies and newswatchers, but they have half a case. With women, what? You had to shoot that woman through a window before she threw you to the ground and peed on you, shouting “house on fire, house on fire, put it out, put it out”?

  114. @Feryl
    @Mr. Anon

    I would note that a substantial chunk of spree killers aren't old enough to legally drink, whereas early scholar of serial killers Robert Ressler said that most serial killers began as prowling burglars, voyeurs, and flashers in their teens, escalate to rape as young adults, then escalate to murder in their late 20's and 30's. Spree killers tend to be either alienated young misfits who snap, or are middle aged people venting years of despair.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    It makes it hard to profile mass killing shooters: they are 0.0000001% of unhappy males.

  115. @Pincher Martin
    @Alden

    Yeah, I'm just not buying the Vietnam/Phoenix Program connection.

    David Carpenter was a piece of work, wasn't he?

    Replies: @Alden, @J.Ross

    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on “GI Guinea Pigs.”
    Two example projects from Phoenix:
    Steal from Vietnamese ammunition stocks, augment (“pop!”) or damage every fifth round, then restore the stocks.
    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
    https://badgerhoundsupply.com/product/pp/

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @J.Ross


    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on “GI Guinea Pigs.”
     
    I know.

    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
     
    I think that local legend about vampires was in the Philippines, not Vietnam. Lansdale supposedly used it to his advantage to put down a communist rebellion in the 1950s. Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox

  116. @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.

    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.

    Affirmative Action is my big beef with liberals. Not black on White crime. Because affirmative action affects all Whites. In every stage of their lives.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.

    I don’t believe any of Carpenter’s murder victims were discovered in the Presidio or in the Marin Headlands.

    On the San Francisco side, I believe you are talking about the body found in Lands End, a murder that when first discovered was not originally assigned to Carpenter until DNA evidence proved his culpability decades later. I can’t remember for sure, but Carpenter may not have even been a suspect in that murder until the DNA connection was made.

    Lands End is on the west side of the Sea Cliff neighborhood. It has that little muni golf course (Lincoln Park), which in spots has some of the most breathtaking views in all of San Francisco. It is also home to the Veteran’s Hospital, Sutro Baths and what I think is the best museum in all of San Francisco (The Legion of Honor).

    Carpenter did attack the mother of one of those Beverly Hill’s housewives in the Presidio in 1960 (before any of the murders Carpenter would later become famous for). That was back when the Presidio was still a federal military base. She was attacked viciously, and the incident probably would’ve ended in her death (because she knew Carpenter personally and could easily ID him) if a military policeman had not seen them drive down a deserted road and followed them. But as far as we know, Carpenter had not killed anyone before that attack in the Presidio.

    As for Carpenter’s murders in Marin County, he killed his victims either near Mount Tamalpais, which is quite a bit inland from the Marin Headlands, or in the Point Reyes National Seashore park, which is in the north of the county.

    Two of his murders were in Santa Cruz’s famous state parks. One was in an adjacent Putin park located in Santa Clara county.

    I read an excellent book about Carpenter’s crimes by Robert Graysmith, the cartoonist at the San Francisco Chronicle who became famous for obsessing over the Zodiac murders and was played by Jake Gyllenhaal in the movie _Zodiac_. I’ve hiked in all those parks along the same trails (or what I believe were the same trails) Carpenter once hunted women on.

    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.

    She was a pretty girl, too. Carpenter lured that twenty-year-old to her death by promising to help buy her a car.

    The beautiful seventeen-year-old Kelly Menjivar’s death is the one that haunts me. Graysmith speculates that Carpenter lured her to her murder by promising to help her find a special birthday gift for her mother.

    Hard to believe that Carpenter is still alive today. He’s 93 years old. That’s a rare age for an old convict. He should have been put down decades ago. It’s a moral sin he was not.

    • Thanks: Alden
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Lands End at the western edge of that national forest west of Sea Cliff. That’s the National Forest where the kids were playing the day the body was discovered. The boys loved the old WW2 bunkers. And fantasied a tsunami roaring up the Golden Gate channel. We lived in Sea Cliff still own the house. So I’m familiar.

    He was arrested dumping one of the bodies in the Presidio years earlier. Found the body in his car. Went to prison and released to kill again.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  117. @Lion of the Blogosphere
    Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1529098712466837505

    Replies: @dearieme, @al gore rhythms, @Alden, @JohnnyWalker123, @Lurker

    Lion, you need to start posting here again.

    • Agree: J.Ross
  118. @Joe S.Walker
    @JimDandy

    I'd have liked to see the FBI advisor who had to read the scripts for Twin Peaks.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    I think the Twin Peaks vibe is an accurate description of current FBI personnel.

  119. @J.Ross
    @Pincher Martin

    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on "GI Guinea Pigs."
    Two example projects from Phoenix:
    Steal from Vietnamese ammunition stocks, augment ("pop!") or damage every fifth round, then restore the stocks.
    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
    https://badgerhoundsupply.com/product/pp/

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on “GI Guinea Pigs.”

    I know.

    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.

    I think that local legend about vampires was in the Philippines, not Vietnam. Lansdale supposedly used it to his advantage to put down a communist rebellion in the 1950s. Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Pincher Martin

    You are correct, the Hukbalahap insurgency, and he was a sort of ur-Phoenix but was simulating vampires before the program properly started.

    , @nebulafox
    @Pincher Martin

    Modern Vietnam has a strong history of syncretic religious beliefs. Some cults got successful enough to have their own armed paramilitary organized that went alternately to war with the VC and the RVN government.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caodaism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B2a_H%E1%BA%A3o

    After the fall of Saigon, the government cracked down hard on religion of all kinds, but has lightened up considerably since the 1990s. Cao Dai in particular is still visible today, in the diaspora too.

    >Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    That's partly because the Viet Cong were explicitly fighting against these kinds of "superstitions", as were both warring Vietnamese states. Unlike the Filipino guerrillas at the turn of the century, they weren't almost exclusively from the colonial elite and knew how to make their case, so this didn't stop recruitment.

    There are a number of reasons why the US succeeded in counter-insurgency in the PI but not in Vietnam. Some of them were beyond our control, but I think there is one glaring difference that wasn't, and tends to be overlooked: the American military treated the conflict in the Philippines like the insurgency it was and prepared for it, whereas in Vietnam, the war was treated too much like the conventional conflict that it would not truly become until after 1968. The best approximation being used in briefing officers before deployment was 1950s Malaysia, which had far too many differences with Vietnam society-wise to be of much use. (I.e, Malaysia's racial divides playing a huge role in both the Communist insurgency and then British success. Vietnam had its minorities, most of whom were pro-US, but they were far smaller and more isolated.)

  120. @BB753
    The rise of the serial killer was linked to the Vietnam war and the Phoenix Program (see Doug Valentine's book The Phoenix Program). It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS and other drugs to perform unspeakable acts of cruelty, torture and murder in order to terrorize the Vietnamese population supporting the Viet Cong.
    After these brain-damaged vets returned to the US, they continued to do what they've been taught to do, but this time on the American population, often with the cooperation of intelligence agencies, the police and the drug cartels, for various reasons ( for experimentation purposes, to terrorize the American population, to do hits for the police or the cartels, or just randomly in their spare time).
    If you read Dave McGowan's Programmed to Kill you'll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Pincher Martin, @JohnnyWalker123, @duncsbaby

    Excellent posts.

    Why do you think so many of these individuals were involved with Satanic cults?

    Also, I’m sure you are familiar with the “Finders” cult, Boystown Omaha, and the rampant occultism of the elites(Hollywood, Marina Abramovich, Jeffrey Epstein’s temple, etc). There seem to be real-life Satanists in critical positions of our power structure. What are your thoughts on all that?

    • Replies: @BB753
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Thanks! Unfortunately, most people, Steve Sailer included, are unable to stare the hard, cold facts of the underworld and its interconnections with intelligence, police, drugs, human trafficking and ultimately, finance corporations.

    As for the reason so many of the so-called serial killers were in cults, the answer is very simple.
    People in cults are broken, bitter and discontent and are ready to lash out at society. They also do know how to keep secrets. So they make perfect contract killers. Moreover, cults are perfect covers for illegal activities, since weird goings-on are taken for granted.
    As to the satanic or occultic element, well, these kinds of cults naturally attract psychopaths and sexual deviants. Some don't take satanism seriously, some do. But they enjoy the dark atmosphere and the social darwinism inherent to satanism: the strong prey on the weak, might makes right, etc.
    Yes, I do know about the Franklin Scandal, Boystown, the Finders, etc.
    Occultism among the elites has been going on since the Renaissance, particularly the Anglo elites. After all, the British Empire was built by freemasons, who served as spies and business brokers for the Empire. Take a guy like Cecil Rhodes, for instance, and his Round Table cult, which included Milner, Balfour, Astor, etc. When the power shifted from London City to New York, the Anglo-American establishment retained both a pragmatic and an occultic or messianic side. Need I remind anyone that America was established by masons? Christianity in America has always been shallow, mostly influenced by Calvin.
    Certainly, some freemasons aren't that interested in the Kabbalah or illuminism, some are.
    As for Hollywood, it has always been a hotbed of witchcraft and occultism and sexual deviancy.

    Ultimately, as I said, the mindset of the elite is luciferian in nature: they see themselves as gods, above the plebes and at the top of the food chain and natural predators.

  121. @Corn
    @J.Ross

    Thanks. That’s a good point.

    Old America: Lower crime rates, lower illegitimacy rates, fewer broken families.

    New America: More crime, more illegitimacy, more broken families and people.

    Liberals: Yup! All our problems are residual shame from the old order!

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    Remember, intact family units are White Supremacy!

  122. @BB753
    The rise of the serial killer was linked to the Vietnam war and the Phoenix Program (see Doug Valentine's book The Phoenix Program). It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS and other drugs to perform unspeakable acts of cruelty, torture and murder in order to terrorize the Vietnamese population supporting the Viet Cong.
    After these brain-damaged vets returned to the US, they continued to do what they've been taught to do, but this time on the American population, often with the cooperation of intelligence agencies, the police and the drug cartels, for various reasons ( for experimentation purposes, to terrorize the American population, to do hits for the police or the cartels, or just randomly in their spare time).
    If you read Dave McGowan's Programmed to Kill you'll notice a series of features common to almost all serial killers: military background, participation in the Phoenix Program, MK Ultra or similar programs, drug running, snuff films production, intelligence and police ties, membership in cults often satanic in nature, etc.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Pincher Martin, @JohnnyWalker123, @duncsbaby

    It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS

    Surely Mormons can’t be blamed for this too.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @BB753
    @duncsbaby

    Lol! Well, Ted Bundy had definitively ties to Utah and converted to Mormonism!
    https://famousmormons.net/other/infamous-mormons/ted-bundy/

  123. @Anon
    Serial killers have been around for a long time. Just read about H. H. Holmes. Jack the Rippers isn't modern. Albert Fish was one of the craziest guys I've ever read about, inserting almost 30 needles all the way into himself for the fun of it besides killing children.

    Before the modern era there were a fair number of killers who targeted travelers, robbing and murdering them to hide the evidence.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @duncsbaby

    My favorite 19th century serial murder story is a serial murdering family: The Bloody Benders.

    The Bender family, more popularly known as the Bloody Benders, were a family of serial killers who lived and operated in Labette County, Kansas, United States, from May 1871 to December 1872.The family consisted of John Bender, his wife Elvira and their son John Jr. and daughter Kate. While popular retelling of the story holds that John Jr. and Kate were siblings, contemporary newspapers reported that several of the Benders’ neighbors had stated that they claimed to be married, possibly in a common law marriage.

    While there is no definitive number, estimates report that the Benders killed at least a dozen travelers before their crimes were discovered. The fate of the family remains unknown, with theories ranging from a lynching of the family to a successful escape. Much folklore and legend surrounds the Benders, making it difficult to separate fact from fiction.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Benders

    • Thanks: BB753
  124. @Pincher Martin
    @J.Ross


    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on “GI Guinea Pigs.”
     
    I know.

    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
     
    I think that local legend about vampires was in the Philippines, not Vietnam. Lansdale supposedly used it to his advantage to put down a communist rebellion in the 1950s. Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox

    You are correct, the Hukbalahap insurgency, and he was a sort of ur-Phoenix but was simulating vampires before the program properly started.

  125. @Sumerdoomer
    The problem is that society is basically dead now so there's no way to take advantage of people's trusting nature to hurt them. No one hitchhikes anymore, no one goes outside or let's their kids go outside, no one talks to strangers no one trusts their neighbor or even knows them. Serial killers and desegregation related crime totally destroyed the american social fabric over the decades and now the pickings are slim. It's like a wolf population that starves because it over-hunts the local deer.

    I guess one upside is that those sick bastards have a harder time murdering random people on the other hand have you ever considered that they simply transitioned to being the mass shooter creeps?

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    Perceptive comment.

    At this point, the social scene is basically dead. Outside of close family and maybe a FEW friends, people don’t just socialize anymore. When they do interact with broader society, it’s often in a HIGHLY controlled environment (workplace, classroom, school sports team), with minimal threat of dangerous spontaneity or forced intimacy.

    When they go out anywhere, they’ll either look down at their phone or interact with whoever (spouse, kids, perhaps 1-2 friends) came with them. Nobody ever speaks to anyone new. Even in a nightclub environment, it’s hard to meet new people these days.

    Even young people have abandoned public spaces and any broader social scene. Teens may socialize with many people online, but only keep a few close friends in real life. Younger kids either get parent-supervised “play dates” or school-supervised extracurriculars/sports, not spontaneous play without adult oversight. Helicopter parenting has totally changed what it’s like to be a young person.

    Where exactly would a serial killer even be able to meet people and gain their trust? Everywhere I go, everyone has their guard up and is disconnected from broader society.

    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.

    We live in a profoundly anti-social age, in which meeting people and making friends are nearly impossible tasks.

    Most of the old serial killer “tricks” (befriending someone new, luring them somewhere, taking advantage of their naivety, etc) are obsolete. While it is true that you could meet people online, socializing on Facebook Messenger or Instagram DM is not the same as real life.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @JohnnyWalker123


    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.
     
    This sounds like a plot for a Current Year Coen Brothers type comedy/horror movie. The brutal serial killer gets away with many murders but he ends up getting Me Too-ed and sent to prison for using a sexist pick up line. There, justice is served because an F to M black tranny inmate beats him to death for using the wrong pronoun.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

  126. @That Would Be Telling
    @kaganovitch


    They share in common the use of high cinematic art to make the FBI look like a heroic and highly skilled agency, and not the mutinous buffoons comprising the mystick crewe of Comey.

    Since its inception, the FBI’s core competency has always been publicity rather than investigation.
     

    And for me the iconic example of that was the 1965-1974 The F.B.I. TV series which I clearly remember the last few years of in its first run (and which I now discover was a totally Jewish production).

    Something we might factor into timelines is how for the less propagandized and better able to accept real life horror part of the population the FBI incinerated its reputation with the Branch Davidians including the women and children at Waco. Which happened around the time the Ruby Ridge trial was held that exonerated the victims of FBI Hostage "Rescue" Team member Lon Horiuchi.

    Actually, this probably doesn't make a difference, that the fact the FBI was openly running a death squad should be a deterrent to crime. The stark incompetence J.Ross mentions started to become very clear very early in this century and that might fritter it away. After 9/11 we certainly got the message "you're on your own" loud and clear, which is reflected in thing like gun purchases and perhaps survivalism 2.0, "preppers," I don't know the timeline of that.

    Replies: @prosa123, @JimDandy, @duncsbaby

    You’re saying a t.v. show was a “totally Jewish production”? Well, that’s a shocker. Surely they had a couple of Irish guys doing the gaffing? Efrem’s alright w/me. In fact I’m a fan of the whole Zimbalist line.

  127. @Feryl
    @Thomas

    Another big change is that the population has aged a lot over the last 30 years. Fewer young people= less risk taking. In addition, the generations born since roughly 1975 spent their whole lives in the Moral Majority/stranger danger era in which their was a backlash to the free-wheeling youth culture of the 60's and 70's. So these generation tend to have their guard up. I think that due to rising inequality levels it will be a long time, if ever, before people can relax again. There just is very little social capital or trust in America these days.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    I wonder if foreign countries are any different. Is the lack of trust localized to the USA or is it now a global phenomenon? Do people hesitate to trust strangers everywhere?

    In egalitarian Denmark or Finland, do people trust each other enough that it’d be easy for a serial killer to take advantage? Or is it the same situation as the USA?

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Americans are a much less rooted people in comparison to most other countries. Americans probably score higher on "openness to new experiences" than other nations. Americans are very individualistic. These things make Americans more prone to deviance than white Western Europeans. The high trust, now quickly evaporating, of Americans is mostly an artifact of what NW European Protestants brought to the table. The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to "go big" and make a mark).

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

  128. Serial killers are likely as old as humanity. Spikes in violent crime often follow wars; the first major one came after the Civil War, largely perpetrated by men who discovered a taste for sadism while engaged as “irregulars” during the conflict. Until the great advances in data collection of recent times, there were few means of linking the victims and so recognizing patterns of the serials’ handiwork. The present apparent decline might be the result of an “arms race” between criminals and law enforcement as well as the aging of the offender population. As detection techniques improve, so does awareness of how to thwart them, and one of the characteristics of habitual criminals is their conviction that they are smarter than police. In fact modern police are nowhere near as effective as TV shows portray them. They solve only about half of all homicides, and of these most are the tiresomely consistent killings by people known to the victims. We guess the oligarchs who own the television networks want to get the message across to the peasants, that the structure they put in place to guard their property protects your life too (as if) but it will also inescapably find and punish you if you dare to transgress their rules.

  129. @Dr. Rock
    The supposition of this article is perfectly reasonable, but I'd be equally inclined to entertain the exact opposite thesis-

    There are more serial killers than ever before, and they have just gotten better at getting away with it, in part, because they employ a smarter methodology, (less localized, more spread-out all over) and that law enforcement has gotten worse at catching them.

    Check-out the documentary "The Killing Season".

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6064676/

    They cover some interesting ground on this topic, and as they approach the end of the series, they present some fascinating evidence related to the almost unbelievable number of murdered women that are found along the sides of the national interstate system roadways.

    The hypothesis being that many serial killers are truckers, and by picking women up in one state, killing them, and dropping their bodies in another, distant state, that many of the identities are never discovered.

    Also, many of them are probably "lot lizard" prostitutes, "other" types of hookers, drug addicts, runaways, hitch hikers (or just overly trusting pedestrians), drifters, women/girls just trying to get a free ride across the country, etc.

    When you examine the thousands of missing persons, the thousands of unidentified murder victim bodies found, and the map of where they are found, it's makes a pretty compelling case.

    My point is that after decades of watching other serial killers get caught, thru forensics, DNA, proximity to victims, or bodies found, etc., one could theorize that modern serial killers have just gotten smarter about how they go about their depravity.

    In part, BECAUSE every other type of depravity has markedly INCREASED, so it makes it a safer assumption, that this type of depravity has increased as well...IMHO.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can’t recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don’t think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.

    • Replies: @Dr. Rock
    @Jack D

    No, not in the traditional "standing on the side of the road with their thumb up" kind of way.

    But, unbeknownst to may- There exists in America, a counter-culture of sorts, but more like an undocumented, invisible society, of- drug addicts and users, hookers, whores, prostitutes, criminals, drifters, dead beats, homeless, illegal aliens, and various other "unknowns".

    They mostly inhabit the inner city underbelly, but they also drift from city to city. You could kill 1,000 of them tomorrow, and nobody would even notice, because they are largely invisible. They don't all have cell phones, or if they do, they are cheap, month to month plans, or they only use them at free WiFi hotspots, while having no plan. They don't have jobs, so nobody will miss them on Monday morning. They're not engaged with family, or friends (except other undocumented drifters)

    You see this all the time, when they try to track down missing prostitutes- it's a bunch of dead ends. All their "associates" are equally sketchy, they are all drug users and criminals of some ilk, so they don't really like talking to the cops. They wander from one flop house to another, so all of them are always popping in and out of each other's lives. "I saw her a couple of weeks ago over there" or "I'd see him around from time to time".

    They don't live structured lives, so they are mostly invisible.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Bernard
    @Jack D


    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can’t recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don’t think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.
     
    That’s an interesting point, come to think of it, I haven’t in quite some time. It was quite common in my youth, though discouraged by my parents. As a young man I would hitchhike on occasion, when leaving school mostly. Got picked up by a trucker one night when my car broke down in the middle of nowhere. My father hitchhiked across the US when he was discharged following WW II rather than pay for a bus or train ticket.

    Different world.

  130. @Lion of the Blogosphere
    Steve, any thoughts on the monkeypox outbreak?

    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1529098712466837505

    Replies: @dearieme, @al gore rhythms, @Alden, @JohnnyWalker123, @Lurker

    It will just end up proving how stunning and brave gays are while the rest of us will have to take it up the arse.

  131. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Sumerdoomer

    Perceptive comment.

    At this point, the social scene is basically dead. Outside of close family and maybe a FEW friends, people don't just socialize anymore. When they do interact with broader society, it's often in a HIGHLY controlled environment (workplace, classroom, school sports team), with minimal threat of dangerous spontaneity or forced intimacy.

    When they go out anywhere, they'll either look down at their phone or interact with whoever (spouse, kids, perhaps 1-2 friends) came with them. Nobody ever speaks to anyone new. Even in a nightclub environment, it's hard to meet new people these days.

    Even young people have abandoned public spaces and any broader social scene. Teens may socialize with many people online, but only keep a few close friends in real life. Younger kids either get parent-supervised "play dates" or school-supervised extracurriculars/sports, not spontaneous play without adult oversight. Helicopter parenting has totally changed what it's like to be a young person.

    Where exactly would a serial killer even be able to meet people and gain their trust? Everywhere I go, everyone has their guard up and is disconnected from broader society.

    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.

    We live in a profoundly anti-social age, in which meeting people and making friends are nearly impossible tasks.

    Most of the old serial killer "tricks" (befriending someone new, luring them somewhere, taking advantage of their naivety, etc) are obsolete. While it is true that you could meet people online, socializing on Facebook Messenger or Instagram DM is not the same as real life.

    Replies: @Jack D

    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.

    This sounds like a plot for a Current Year Coen Brothers type comedy/horror movie. The brutal serial killer gets away with many murders but he ends up getting Me Too-ed and sent to prison for using a sexist pick up line. There, justice is served because an F to M black tranny inmate beats him to death for using the wrong pronoun.

    • LOL: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Jack D

    It'd be funny if someone here pitched this idea to a Hollywood director.

  132. @Jack D
    @Dr. Rock

    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can't recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don't think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.

    Replies: @Dr. Rock, @Bernard

    No, not in the traditional “standing on the side of the road with their thumb up” kind of way.

    But, unbeknownst to may- There exists in America, a counter-culture of sorts, but more like an undocumented, invisible society, of- drug addicts and users, hookers, whores, prostitutes, criminals, drifters, dead beats, homeless, illegal aliens, and various other “unknowns”.

    They mostly inhabit the inner city underbelly, but they also drift from city to city. You could kill 1,000 of them tomorrow, and nobody would even notice, because they are largely invisible. They don’t all have cell phones, or if they do, they are cheap, month to month plans, or they only use them at free WiFi hotspots, while having no plan. They don’t have jobs, so nobody will miss them on Monday morning. They’re not engaged with family, or friends (except other undocumented drifters)

    You see this all the time, when they try to track down missing prostitutes- it’s a bunch of dead ends. All their “associates” are equally sketchy, they are all drug users and criminals of some ilk, so they don’t really like talking to the cops. They wander from one flop house to another, so all of them are always popping in and out of each other’s lives. “I saw her a couple of weeks ago over there” or “I’d see him around from time to time”.

    They don’t live structured lives, so they are mostly invisible.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Dr. Rock

    Or those people who live under Las Vegas.

  133. Anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme
    @Lion of the Blogosphere

    Non-Steve here: I wonder whether the Covid jabs have buggered up so many people's immune systems that all sorts of infectious diseases are going to have a field day.

    One clue will be to see whether the unvaccinated (versus the Wuhan virus) are less troubled by other viruses than the multi-vaccinated. There will be confounders to worry about, as there always are with observational data, but the signal might be so strong as to be unmistakeable.

    Time will tell.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    It would be ironic if the geezers who survived the coof now succumb to the pox.

  134. @J.Ross
    @Corn

    Nothing beats Gacy residing with multiple cops in a house which was also storing cadavers. That's not a glitch in the matrix, that's the Microsoft Something Went Wrong window.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    What are you referring to? That cops went to his house to interview him while there were bodies buried in the crawlspace?

  135. @Hodag
    When I was a kid a girl who grew up a bit away was gang raped, sexually mutilated and killed by a small group of Satanist serial killers. If one has the stomach for this sort of thing look up "The Ripper Crew".

    Today with the systemic reading of license plates their pattern would be detected pretty quick. Thank God. Plantir for the win.

    On edit: 23 and Me and Ancestry has fully sampled genomes on tens of millions of Americans. With genetic genealogy it is within our means to catch virtually every rapist in America. So why does the FBI not take their databases via Eminent Domaine?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    The Ripper Crew is still a surprisingly unknown story. And there were links between them and Gacy–and a vast child sex ring that originated in Texas.

  136. @Pincher Martin
    @J.Ross


    Phoenix was sabotage and psywar, not supersoldier. Really cool-looking patch. That said, not having been a soldier means nothing regarding being a subject/victim of government research or not, although the government infamously has carte blanche to experiment on “GI Guinea Pigs.”
     
    I know.

    One of the Vietnamese rural ethnicities had a local tradition about vampirism, so Phoenix would quietly grab the last guy off a line, string him up without bruising him, exsanguinate him in one location, then set him up in another where he was sure to be seen.
     
    I think that local legend about vampires was in the Philippines, not Vietnam. Lansdale supposedly used it to his advantage to put down a communist rebellion in the 1950s. Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @nebulafox

    Modern Vietnam has a strong history of syncretic religious beliefs. Some cults got successful enough to have their own armed paramilitary organized that went alternately to war with the VC and the RVN government.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caodaism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B2a_H%E1%BA%A3o

    After the fall of Saigon, the government cracked down hard on religion of all kinds, but has lightened up considerably since the 1990s. Cao Dai in particular is still visible today, in the diaspora too.

    >Similar tactics were later less effective against the Viet Cong.

    That’s partly because the Viet Cong were explicitly fighting against these kinds of “superstitions”, as were both warring Vietnamese states. Unlike the Filipino guerrillas at the turn of the century, they weren’t almost exclusively from the colonial elite and knew how to make their case, so this didn’t stop recruitment.

    There are a number of reasons why the US succeeded in counter-insurgency in the PI but not in Vietnam. Some of them were beyond our control, but I think there is one glaring difference that wasn’t, and tends to be overlooked: the American military treated the conflict in the Philippines like the insurgency it was and prepared for it, whereas in Vietnam, the war was treated too much like the conventional conflict that it would not truly become until after 1968. The best approximation being used in briefing officers before deployment was 1950s Malaysia, which had far too many differences with Vietnam society-wise to be of much use. (I.e, Malaysia’s racial divides playing a huge role in both the Communist insurgency and then British success. Vietnam had its minorities, most of whom were pro-US, but they were far smaller and more isolated.)

    • Thanks: Pincher Martin
  137. @Pincher Martin
    @Alden


    Our 12, 11 and 1o year old kids were out playing in that Golden Gate seashore national park that goes along the Golden Gate channel from Sea Cliff to the ocean the day one of Carpenters victims was found in the Presidio on the other side of Sea Cliff. He killed or dumped the body a victim in the Marin headlands on the other side of the GG channel too.
     
    I don't believe any of Carpenter's murder victims were discovered in the Presidio or in the Marin Headlands.

    On the San Francisco side, I believe you are talking about the body found in Lands End, a murder that when first discovered was not originally assigned to Carpenter until DNA evidence proved his culpability decades later. I can't remember for sure, but Carpenter may not have even been a suspect in that murder until the DNA connection was made.

    Lands End is on the west side of the Sea Cliff neighborhood. It has that little muni golf course (Lincoln Park), which in spots has some of the most breathtaking views in all of San Francisco. It is also home to the Veteran's Hospital, Sutro Baths and what I think is the best museum in all of San Francisco (The Legion of Honor).

    Carpenter did attack the mother of one of those Beverly Hill's housewives in the Presidio in 1960 (before any of the murders Carpenter would later become famous for). That was back when the Presidio was still a federal military base. She was attacked viciously, and the incident probably would've ended in her death (because she knew Carpenter personally and could easily ID him) if a military policeman had not seen them drive down a deserted road and followed them. But as far as we know, Carpenter had not killed anyone before that attack in the Presidio.

    As for Carpenter's murders in Marin County, he killed his victims either near Mount Tamalpais, which is quite a bit inland from the Marin Headlands, or in the Point Reyes National Seashore park, which is in the north of the county.

    Two of his murders were in Santa Cruz's famous state parks. One was in an adjacent Putin park located in Santa Clara county.

    I read an excellent book about Carpenter's crimes by Robert Graysmith, the cartoonist at the San Francisco Chronicle who became famous for obsessing over the Zodiac murders and was played by Jake Gyllenhaal in the movie _Zodiac_. I've hiked in all those parks along the same trails (or what I believe were the same trails) Carpenter once hunted women on.

    https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1387668987l/105771.jpg


    Carpenter had an affirmative action job with the State if California even though he’s a White man. He got his affirmative action job through the dangerous parolee affirmative action category. Killed a woman he supervised at their state of California job.
     
    She was a pretty girl, too. Carpenter lured that twenty-year-old to her death by promising to help buy her a car.

    https://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/3-heather-scaggs.jpg

    The beautiful seventeen-year-old Kelly Menjivar's death is the one that haunts me. Graysmith speculates that Carpenter lured her to her murder by promising to help her find a special birthday gift for her mother.

    http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/predators/david_carpenter/Anne-Kelly-Menjivar150.jpg

    Hard to believe that Carpenter is still alive today. He's 93 years old. That's a rare age for an old convict. He should have been put down decades ago. It's a moral sin he was not.

    Replies: @Alden

    Lands End at the western edge of that national forest west of Sea Cliff. That’s the National Forest where the kids were playing the day the body was discovered. The boys loved the old WW2 bunkers. And fantasied a tsunami roaring up the Golden Gate channel. We lived in Sea Cliff still own the house. So I’m familiar.

    He was arrested dumping one of the bodies in the Presidio years earlier. Found the body in his car. Went to prison and released to kill again.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Alden


    We lived in Sea Cliff still own the house. So I’m familiar.
     
    Nice. It's a wonderful area. Probably my favorite neighborhood in the entire city.

    My wife and I lived in outer Richmond, not too far from Golden Gate Park, but we walked through Sea Cliff all the time. Our favorite pizzeria in all of San Francisco is Pizzetta 211, which is just a stone's throw from the Sea Cliff neighborhood. We ate there dozens of times.

    He was arrested dumping one of the bodies in the Presidio years earlier. Found the body in his car. Went to prison and released to kill again.
     
    I don't think so. He was arrested for his vicious assault on Lois DeAndrade (i.e., Lois Rinni) in the Presidio, but he did not murder her. He spent seven years in prison for that attack. He later spent another seven years in prison for a kidnapping in 1970.

    But there are no murders conclusively tied to Carpenter until 1979.

    Do I think Carpenter murdered women before 1979 (when he was already 49 years old)? Probably. But if he did, he got away with it.

    Also, Carpenter has an excellent alibi for any crimes between 1960 and 1967 and between 1970 and 1977, since he was in prison for those fourteen years.
  138. @J.Ross
    @Joe S.Walker

    Is that the basis of the Red Riding novels?

    Replies: @Joe S.Walker

    Yes it is.

  139. One point I would like to make about blaming the military for men serial killers. Until about 1973 all men between 18 and 26 years old were subject to the draft.

    So most men had been in the military 1950 to I believe 1973 when the draft ended. Can’t blame the military if a few of the hundred million men in the USA became serial killers.

  140. @Jack D
    @Dr. Rock

    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can't recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don't think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.

    Replies: @Dr. Rock, @Bernard

    Do people (especially women traveling alone) in America still hitchhike? I can’t recall seeing a hitchhiker for decades now or maybe a handful at best. I don’t think that we have the level of trust anymore that would allow a random stranger to pick up a random stranger. Either or both of them would fear that one is going to kill the other.

    That’s an interesting point, come to think of it, I haven’t in quite some time. It was quite common in my youth, though discouraged by my parents. As a young man I would hitchhike on occasion, when leaving school mostly. Got picked up by a trucker one night when my car broke down in the middle of nowhere. My father hitchhiked across the US when he was discharged following WW II rather than pay for a bus or train ticket.

    Different world.

  141. @Wilkey

    One thing to keep in mind is that some of the sharp decline is due to the rule that the serial killer must be caught before being counted.
     
    He has to be caught before being counted (usually), but he (or she) has to kill enough people before being caught. The odds of being caught after each murder have gone way up, thanks to cameras, DNA fingerprinting etc. If the odds of getting away with murder are 1/2 of what they were 40-50 years ago, then the odds of getting away with five murders are 1/32 of what they were then. So a lot of serial killers are getting caught before they get to their second or third murder.

    Replies: @ic1000, @David

    In 1965, America’s murder closure rate was just over 90%. In 2020, it was just under 55%.

    But I still think there’s truth in what you’re saying. As Steve has pointed out, the police can solve almost any crime if they want to invest enough time and effort.

  142. @Steve Sailer
    @Goatweed

    After a freelance writer named Christine Pelisek figured out that a serial killer she dubbed the Grim Sleeper had reactivated himself after decades, the LAPD admitted about ten years ago that there were at least four other serial killers active in Los Angeles around 1990 that they'd also never noticed. They mostly murdered crack whores at the peak of the crack wars when so many people were getting murdered for other reasons that the cops never noticed the commonalities.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “the LAPD admitted about ten years ago that there were at least four other serial killers active in Los Angeles around 1990 that they’d also never noticed.”

    Source, please.

    Regarding the “fall” of serial killers…

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/are-serial-killers-more-common-than-we-think/596647/

    The helter-skelter 1970s and ’80s are remembered as the serial killer’s heyday—think of Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz. Since then, data suggest, the number of serial killers—defined by the National Institute of Justice as those who commit two or more separate murders, often with a psychological motive and a sadistic sexual component—has plunged, falling 85 percent in three decades; the FBI now says that serial killers account for fewer than 1 percent of killings. Several reasons are commonly cited for this decline, among them longer prison sentences and a reduction in parole (many serial killers are convicted murderers who, after serving time, kill again). Better forensic science is also credited, as are cultural and technological shifts: less hitchhiking, more helicopter parents, 60 million security cameras.

    But here’s a curious fact. As the number of serial killings has supposedly fallen, so too has the rate of murder cases solved—or “cleared,” in detective lingo. In 1965, the U.S. homicide clearance rate was 91 percent. By 2017, it had dropped to 61.6 percent, one of the lowest rates in the Western world. In other words, about 40 percent of the time, murderers get away with murder.

    Some experts believe that serial killers are responsible for a significant number of these unsolved murders. Thomas Hargrove, the founder of the Murder Accountability Project, a nonprofit that compiles data on homicide, has examined how many unsolved murders are linked by DNA evidence. He believes that at least 2 percent of murders are committed by serial offenders—translating to about 2,100 unidentified serial killers. Michael Arntfield, a retired police detective and the author of 12 books on serial murder, agrees that the FBI’s projections are off (he blames patchy data, among other things) but thinks the number of active serial killers is more like 3,000 or 4,000.

  143. @Dr. Rock
    @Jack D

    No, not in the traditional "standing on the side of the road with their thumb up" kind of way.

    But, unbeknownst to may- There exists in America, a counter-culture of sorts, but more like an undocumented, invisible society, of- drug addicts and users, hookers, whores, prostitutes, criminals, drifters, dead beats, homeless, illegal aliens, and various other "unknowns".

    They mostly inhabit the inner city underbelly, but they also drift from city to city. You could kill 1,000 of them tomorrow, and nobody would even notice, because they are largely invisible. They don't all have cell phones, or if they do, they are cheap, month to month plans, or they only use them at free WiFi hotspots, while having no plan. They don't have jobs, so nobody will miss them on Monday morning. They're not engaged with family, or friends (except other undocumented drifters)

    You see this all the time, when they try to track down missing prostitutes- it's a bunch of dead ends. All their "associates" are equally sketchy, they are all drug users and criminals of some ilk, so they don't really like talking to the cops. They wander from one flop house to another, so all of them are always popping in and out of each other's lives. "I saw her a couple of weeks ago over there" or "I'd see him around from time to time".

    They don't live structured lives, so they are mostly invisible.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Or those people who live under Las Vegas.

  144. @Jack D
    @JohnnyWalker123


    If a killer did attempt to approach people, he could get in a lot of trouble if women felt they were being sexually harassed.
     
    This sounds like a plot for a Current Year Coen Brothers type comedy/horror movie. The brutal serial killer gets away with many murders but he ends up getting Me Too-ed and sent to prison for using a sexist pick up line. There, justice is served because an F to M black tranny inmate beats him to death for using the wrong pronoun.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    It’d be funny if someone here pitched this idea to a Hollywood director.

  145. Anonymous[304] • Disclaimer says:
    @JimDandy
    @That Would Be Telling

    The F.B.I. has made it the law that they must be allowed to ok any script that mentions them.

    Erik Striker:

    A little known law passed in 1954 at the urging of then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover makes it illegal to display the FBI seal, the FBI initials, and the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” in commercial popular culture without expressed permission from the Bureau’s propaganda office, the Investigative Publicity and Public Affairs Unit (IPPAU).

    ▲▼In order to obtain permission to portray the FBI on film, writers and producers must give propaganda agents full veto power over their content.

    ▲▼A cache of documents obtained in 2017 by journalists under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) found that the FBI uses this power liberally to sanitize its image. Various other federal agencies like the CIA and ICE do not have this power.

    ▲▼In 2010 terrorism thriller Unthinkable, the IPPAU forced producers to cut a scene showing FBI and CIA agents torturing a man together. In the “revised” version, the CIA agent still tortures the man, but laughably, the FBI agent present protests against the action the entire time, even citing the Geneva Convention as reason for refusing to participate.

    ▲▼The FBI sends “advisors” to rewrite scripts in all productions about them, often cutting out instances of them violating people’s civil rights, talking down to local cops, or engaging in various heinous activities. The result is preferential media treatment most law enforcement groups do not enjoy: the popular portrayal of every single FBI agent as a hero saving the world while we sleep without ever needing to break any rules is deliberately constructed fantasy.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Joe S.Walker, @Anonymous

    So that’s why the FBI has or had such an aura around it. The most iconic FBI related scene for me:

    That being said, they do have quite high standards for entry, from memory.

    Damn, McTiernan had a few of the greatest 80s action movies. Predator and Die Hard. Hunt for Red October. If he had a Tarantino-esque career resurgence I wonded what he might have done. His greatest movies are up there with James Cameron’s in the public conscience. The latter’s sustained volume though.

    https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0001532/filmotype/director?ref_=m_nmfm_1

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Anonymous


    That being said, they do have quite high standards for entry, from memory.
     
    Mueller (thank again, W) made that irrelevant starting in this century by requiring all Special Agents to spend time in D.C. where those not down with the Deep State's agenda got purged. No longer could an agent have a long career in a certain area, which has corruption risks, see Whitey Bulger which Mueller was also involved with, but also gives them a chance to learn an area and its issues.

    Also a fundamental flaw with their fraudulent laboratory, Special Agents aren't STEM types but were always put in charge of it.
  146. @Pincher Martin
    @Perspective

    I don't know about the specific diagnoses, but both Lake and Ng exhibited very obvious signs of mental illness and criminal behavior long before they enlisted in the military. Ramirez, who never enlisted, got the worst of both genetics and the environment for brewing up a natural born killer.

    Replies: @Perspective

    Leonard Lake himself received a medical discharge from the military:
    “After attending Balboa High School, Lake enlisted in the United States Marine Corps in 1964.[6] He served two tours of duty in the Vietnam War as a radar electronics technician. During this period, Lake was first diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder.[7] After what was termed a “delusional breakdown” in Da Nang, he received psychotherapy and, in 1971, a medical discharge.[4]: 91 

    Lake settled in San Jose and enrolled at San Jose State University, but dropped out after one semester upon becoming enamored of the hippie lifestyle in San Francisco. He moved to a commune there, and married briefly in 1975. The marriage dissolved after his wife discovered that he was making and appearing in amateur pornographic movies, usually involving bondage or sadomasochism.[4]: 92 ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Lake

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Perspective

    Yeah, I read that yesterday when writing up my response to you. But I remain leery of assigning general mental diagnoses for these very special and difficult to find men that can also be applied to hundreds of thousands of other people.

  147. @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    Lands End at the western edge of that national forest west of Sea Cliff. That’s the National Forest where the kids were playing the day the body was discovered. The boys loved the old WW2 bunkers. And fantasied a tsunami roaring up the Golden Gate channel. We lived in Sea Cliff still own the house. So I’m familiar.

    He was arrested dumping one of the bodies in the Presidio years earlier. Found the body in his car. Went to prison and released to kill again.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    We lived in Sea Cliff still own the house. So I’m familiar.

    Nice. It’s a wonderful area. Probably my favorite neighborhood in the entire city.

    My wife and I lived in outer Richmond, not too far from Golden Gate Park, but we walked through Sea Cliff all the time. Our favorite pizzeria in all of San Francisco is Pizzetta 211, which is just a stone’s throw from the Sea Cliff neighborhood. We ate there dozens of times.

    He was arrested dumping one of the bodies in the Presidio years earlier. Found the body in his car. Went to prison and released to kill again.

    I don’t think so. He was arrested for his vicious assault on Lois DeAndrade (i.e., Lois Rinni) in the Presidio, but he did not murder her. He spent seven years in prison for that attack. He later spent another seven years in prison for a kidnapping in 1970.

    But there are no murders conclusively tied to Carpenter until 1979.

    Do I think Carpenter murdered women before 1979 (when he was already 49 years old)? Probably. But if he did, he got away with it.

    Also, Carpenter has an excellent alibi for any crimes between 1960 and 1967 and between 1970 and 1977, since he was in prison for those fourteen years.

  148. @Anonymous
    @JimDandy

    So that's why the FBI has or had such an aura around it. The most iconic FBI related scene for me:

    https://youtu.be/LlC0yEH1uUc

    That being said, they do have quite high standards for entry, from memory.

    Damn, McTiernan had a few of the greatest 80s action movies. Predator and Die Hard. Hunt for Red October. If he had a Tarantino-esque career resurgence I wonded what he might have done. His greatest movies are up there with James Cameron's in the public conscience. The latter's sustained volume though.

    https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0001532/filmotype/director?ref_=m_nmfm_1

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    That being said, they do have quite high standards for entry, from memory.

    Mueller (thank again, W) made that irrelevant starting in this century by requiring all Special Agents to spend time in D.C. where those not down with the Deep State’s agenda got purged. No longer could an agent have a long career in a certain area, which has corruption risks, see Whitey Bulger which Mueller was also involved with, but also gives them a chance to learn an area and its issues.

    Also a fundamental flaw with their fraudulent laboratory, Special Agents aren’t STEM types but were always put in charge of it.

  149. @Alden
    @Pincher Martin

    I watched one of those true crime stories. The cameras that followed the cars exonerated the boyfriend and caught the killer’s truck in a parking lot 400 miles away.

    Oakland Ca . Young man picked up girlfriend at her family home. As soon as his car hit the nearest business street cameras picked them up. Then parking the car in a Walgreens parking kit. The couple walking in the Street. Entering a bar. In the bar. Leaving the bar with a friend. Getting into the friend’s car. Walgreens parking lot. Getting out of friends car into boyfriends car. Sitting in the car for a while . CarLeaving the parking lot.

    7AM next morning the maintenance crew found the woman’s raped and murdered body in a city park. Boyfriend the obvious suspect right?

    No boyfriend explained she wanted to take the bus because they both had too much to drink. He insisted he was okay to drive and streets were empty at1am and he wasn’t going to wait for a once an hour bus.

    She insisted on not driving with him and taking the bus. So he dropped her at the bus stop. And parked across the street in front of a bank. Left the car door unlocked and told her to wake him up when she got tired of waiting for a bus.

    He quickly went to sleep and woke up around 6 am and went home.

    There is was all on cameras Argument in Walgreens parking lot. Her getting out of the car at the bus stop. Him parking the car in front of the bank and other cameras. And staying in the car all night long. Completely Innocent.

    None of the cameras had a clear view of the bus stop. But did get a clear of a red pick up and license plate that drove by the bus stop twice and stopped the third time.

    License plate entered into a search system. And a few months later the red pick up was found in a parking lot near San Diego. Murderer arrested and convicted. Unfortunately the young woman was still dead.

    Safer to drive home drunk at 1 am than wait for a bus. Killer was Hispanic.

    Replies: @Rooster15

    You make a valid point. I believe the prevalence of cameras and the overall security state have had a big impact on serial killers. The authorities can track your movement through your phone, newer car electronic systems, cameras that record license plates, etc. Think about all the ring doorbell monitors in your neighborhood and security cameras on just about every commercial building. The forensics they use has also greatly improved over the years. I think nowadays, many of the would-be serial killers are caught before they reach that level.

  150. @Perspective
    @Pincher Martin

    Leonard Lake himself received a medical discharge from the military:
    "After attending Balboa High School, Lake enlisted in the United States Marine Corps in 1964.[6] He served two tours of duty in the Vietnam War as a radar electronics technician. During this period, Lake was first diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder.[7] After what was termed a "delusional breakdown" in Da Nang, he received psychotherapy and, in 1971, a medical discharge.[4]: 91 

    Lake settled in San Jose and enrolled at San Jose State University, but dropped out after one semester upon becoming enamored of the hippie lifestyle in San Francisco. He moved to a commune there, and married briefly in 1975. The marriage dissolved after his wife discovered that he was making and appearing in amateur pornographic movies, usually involving bondage or sadomasochism.[4]: 92 "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Lake

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Yeah, I read that yesterday when writing up my response to you. But I remain leery of assigning general mental diagnoses for these very special and difficult to find men that can also be applied to hundreds of thousands of other people.

  151. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Feryl

    I wonder if foreign countries are any different. Is the lack of trust localized to the USA or is it now a global phenomenon? Do people hesitate to trust strangers everywhere?

    In egalitarian Denmark or Finland, do people trust each other enough that it'd be easy for a serial killer to take advantage? Or is it the same situation as the USA?

    Replies: @Feryl

    Americans are a much less rooted people in comparison to most other countries. Americans probably score higher on “openness to new experiences” than other nations. Americans are very individualistic. These things make Americans more prone to deviance than white Western Europeans. The high trust, now quickly evaporating, of Americans is mostly an artifact of what NW European Protestants brought to the table. The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to “go big” and make a mark).

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Feryl

    Thanks.

    So these are the critical factors.

    -High trust culture (brought from Northern Europe).
    -Individualism.
    -Openness to new experiences.
    -Decline in behavioral inhibition during the 60s&70s.

    Interestingly, in other Anglo societies (UK, Canada, Australia, Scotland, South Africa), there was also an epidemic of serial killings too. Not to the same extent as the USA, but still more than most other Western nations. Maybe because all those societies share similar cultural traits?

    https://imgur.com/a/ihmUx23

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Feryl


    The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to “go big” and make a mark).
     
    I noticed when reading or viewing documentaries about serial killers how many of their victims were in some way transients - they were college girls from out of town, or young women seeking careers originally from the heartland, etc. An outsized proportion of the victims themselves did not have a stable network of support, so of course of necessity they're more open to strangers and fewer people noticed something suspicious when they first fell missing. This probably accounts for why serial killers seem to be weighted towards the Western United States where people move from other places in order to start anew and slough off the kind of established order that certain people found stifling.

    Replies: @Feryl

  152. @Pincher Martin
    @Ben tillman

    I'm surprised that man isn't as infamous as Bundy or Gacy or Son of Sam. The details of his murders are horrific, among the worst I've ever read. Not just what he did to those young boys, but how he enlisted a couple of others into being his accomplices.

    Replies: @Feryl

    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length. I understand that Corrl and Kraft inserted and broke items like glass tubes into urethras. Those three are to me the worst of the worst. Keep in mind too that these guys were aware of each other via news reports and true crime, Gacy read about Corrl and imitated him (although Gacy tended to be consumed by rage to the point that he killed victims faster than the other killers I mentioned).

    David Berkowitz seems sort of mundane compared to these guys, he just went up to people and shot them. In recent interviews it looks like Berkowitz has some level of regret that he couldn’t control himself in the 70’s. But the sex torturers? No conscience, no humanity. Pure evil.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Feryl


    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length.
     
    Don't forget William Bonin and Patrick Kearney. Like Kraft, both Bonin and Kearney were gay serial killers who operated mostly along the highways of southern California in the 1970s. All three men mutilated their victims, although Kearney's morbid work was usually done post-mortem. Bonin and Kraft preferred torturing their victims when they were still alive.

    I read somewhere that there were so many boys' and young men's mutilated bodies discovered off of southern California's freeways during the 1970s that investigators frequently attributed a new murder to another serial killer's work who they were familiar with. I mean, how could you begin to keep track of the mayhem without DNA crime lab evidence that had not been invented yet?

    BTW, like Corll, Bonin sometimes worked with accomplices.

    We're living in pretty crazy times, but when I think back to what America must have seemed like to a man my age (mid-fifties) in, say, 1968 or 1970 or 1978, I bet the country seemed just as crazy if not more crazy than it does today.

    Replies: @Feryl

  153. @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length. I understand that Corrl and Kraft inserted and broke items like glass tubes into urethras. Those three are to me the worst of the worst. Keep in mind too that these guys were aware of each other via news reports and true crime, Gacy read about Corrl and imitated him (although Gacy tended to be consumed by rage to the point that he killed victims faster than the other killers I mentioned).

    David Berkowitz seems sort of mundane compared to these guys, he just went up to people and shot them. In recent interviews it looks like Berkowitz has some level of regret that he couldn't control himself in the 70's. But the sex torturers? No conscience, no humanity. Pure evil.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length.

    Don’t forget William Bonin and Patrick Kearney. Like Kraft, both Bonin and Kearney were gay serial killers who operated mostly along the highways of southern California in the 1970s. All three men mutilated their victims, although Kearney’s morbid work was usually done post-mortem. Bonin and Kraft preferred torturing their victims when they were still alive.

    I read somewhere that there were so many boys’ and young men’s mutilated bodies discovered off of southern California’s freeways during the 1970s that investigators frequently attributed a new murder to another serial killer’s work who they were familiar with. I mean, how could you begin to keep track of the mayhem without DNA crime lab evidence that had not been invented yet?

    BTW, like Corll, Bonin sometimes worked with accomplices.

    We’re living in pretty crazy times, but when I think back to what America must have seemed like to a man my age (mid-fifties) in, say, 1968 or 1970 or 1978, I bet the country seemed just as crazy if not more crazy than it does today.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    The really savage gay male serial killers born in the 1930's and 40's (exception: Dahmer). I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70's they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males. Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy's house. Gacy's young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we're to believe they didn't notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?

    *An interviews, Gacy doesn't seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

  154. @Feryl
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Americans are a much less rooted people in comparison to most other countries. Americans probably score higher on "openness to new experiences" than other nations. Americans are very individualistic. These things make Americans more prone to deviance than white Western Europeans. The high trust, now quickly evaporating, of Americans is mostly an artifact of what NW European Protestants brought to the table. The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to "go big" and make a mark).

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Thanks.

    So these are the critical factors.

    -High trust culture (brought from Northern Europe).
    -Individualism.
    -Openness to new experiences.
    -Decline in behavioral inhibition during the 60s&70s.

    Interestingly, in other Anglo societies (UK, Canada, Australia, Scotland, South Africa), there was also an epidemic of serial killings too. Not to the same extent as the USA, but still more than most other Western nations. Maybe because all those societies share similar cultural traits?

    View post on imgur.com

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Serial killers also appear to be common in Russia and Latin America - two places I do not associate with either high-trust societies or with openness to new experiences.

    Replies: @Feryl

  155. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Feryl

    Thanks.

    So these are the critical factors.

    -High trust culture (brought from Northern Europe).
    -Individualism.
    -Openness to new experiences.
    -Decline in behavioral inhibition during the 60s&70s.

    Interestingly, in other Anglo societies (UK, Canada, Australia, Scotland, South Africa), there was also an epidemic of serial killings too. Not to the same extent as the USA, but still more than most other Western nations. Maybe because all those societies share similar cultural traits?

    https://imgur.com/a/ihmUx23

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Serial killers also appear to be common in Russia and Latin America – two places I do not associate with either high-trust societies or with openness to new experiences.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    That's something that I nearly brought up. For Latin American countries, they like the Anglo New World are very young countries full of people who don't have roots stretching back over many generations (rootedness inhibits behavior). WRT the psychopath trait of Openness to experience, Latin America culture has tended to be quite decadent and have they not fully embraced every negative trend that's come down the pike over the years?

    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries. There's bound to be some really nasty people who emerge. Another factor at work maybe the opportunity to roam about that one has in such physically large countries. A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  156. @Pincher Martin
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Serial killers also appear to be common in Russia and Latin America - two places I do not associate with either high-trust societies or with openness to new experiences.

    Replies: @Feryl

    That’s something that I nearly brought up. For Latin American countries, they like the Anglo New World are very young countries full of people who don’t have roots stretching back over many generations (rootedness inhibits behavior). WRT the psychopath trait of Openness to experience, Latin America culture has tended to be quite decadent and have they not fully embraced every negative trend that’s come down the pike over the years?

    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries. There’s bound to be some really nasty people who emerge. Another factor at work maybe the opportunity to roam about that one has in such physically large countries. A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Feryl


    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries.
     
    Yes, but even today they are somewhat closed societies. Their regimes had for many decades - and still have today to a lesser degree - good reason not to publicize the worst depravities of their most twisted citizens as it was viewed as a reflection on their entire societies.

    That's always a bad thing. Mass shooters in the U.S. might be motivated to do their evil deeds in part by the widespread attention and publicity those crimes get.

    BTW, the internet is filled with shrines to serial killers in which the details of their crimes are treated with almost loving attention by those who build the shrines. The victims get much less attention from them, except as props in the serial killer's life. While I highly doubt attention-seeking is a strong motivation for any serial killer - as opposed to mass murderers, serial killers are typically driven by some sick compulsion they must act upon - it's still surprising to see how many of them act as if they are stars after they are caught.

    So I'm sure that there have been many hundreds of serial killers who have committed horrific crimes in China and Russia than we have read about. Even Japan, which is a much smaller country and more tightly packed, has a lot of serial killers whose crimes were not publicized in the west.


    A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.
     
    True. But sprawling areas are not only helpful to the serial killer in allowing him to roam without suspicion. They are also helpful in allowing him to hide his bodies. The forests, rivers, lakes, parks, and deserts of America take up a lot of space. They allow the serial killer to put some time and distance between him and his crime. Even when the bodies are eventually discovered, it's often too late for them to be forensically useful to investigators in finding the killer.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  157. @Pincher Martin
    @Feryl


    The thing is, Corrl, Randy Kraft, and Bob Berdella were all gay and all three stood out for their tendency to horrendously torture their victims at length.
     
    Don't forget William Bonin and Patrick Kearney. Like Kraft, both Bonin and Kearney were gay serial killers who operated mostly along the highways of southern California in the 1970s. All three men mutilated their victims, although Kearney's morbid work was usually done post-mortem. Bonin and Kraft preferred torturing their victims when they were still alive.

    I read somewhere that there were so many boys' and young men's mutilated bodies discovered off of southern California's freeways during the 1970s that investigators frequently attributed a new murder to another serial killer's work who they were familiar with. I mean, how could you begin to keep track of the mayhem without DNA crime lab evidence that had not been invented yet?

    BTW, like Corll, Bonin sometimes worked with accomplices.

    We're living in pretty crazy times, but when I think back to what America must have seemed like to a man my age (mid-fifties) in, say, 1968 or 1970 or 1978, I bet the country seemed just as crazy if not more crazy than it does today.

    Replies: @Feryl

    The really savage gay male serial killers born in the 1930’s and 40’s (exception: Dahmer). I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70’s they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males. Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy’s house. Gacy’s young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we’re to believe they didn’t notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?

    *An interviews, Gacy doesn’t seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Feryl


    An interviews, Gacy doesn’t seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).
     
    Gacy seemed to make a distinction between what he said he was - "bisexual" - and "fags" whom he loathed. This at least implies that he was exclusively the penetrative participant, although he does state that he engaged in oral copulation as both a recipient and a giver so to speak. His earliest arrest in Waterloo, Iowa was for sodomizing the son of an associate. He also seemed to think that he could convince the police to overlook his crimes because his victims were "fags" who had no societal value (although it's not certain that all of his victims were homosexuals). Gacy also had political connections within the Democratic party in suburban Chicago that may have protected him from investigation, and which he may have expected to "smooth over" his trouble with the police.
    , @Pincher Martin
    @Feryl


    I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70’s they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males.
     
    Gacy's savageness was probably driven by his relationship with his abusive father who seems to have understood quite early that his son was a "fairy." Society had nothing to do with it.

    Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy’s house. Gacy’s young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we’re to believe they didn’t notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?
     
    Yes, I had forgotten about that.
  158. @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    To your list I’d say it’s pretty incomplete.
     
    To the degree it is incomplete, I'd argue it doesn't favor one side or the other. I went through a list of known serial killers active either in the years during the Vietnam War and the Phoenix Program or soon afterwards, and I then chose the most infamous and prolific of them without regard to what I would find in their backgrounds.

    Leonard Lake, military.
    Charles Ng, military
    Jeffrey Dahmer, military
    Dennis Rader, BTK, air force
    Israel Keyes, US army
    David Parker Ray, us army and park ranger
    Joe DeAngelo, Golden State killer, US army and police.
    Rodney Alcala, US army
    Miguel Ramírez, Green beret in Vietnam, groomed his nephew Richard Ramirez who would become the Night Stalker ( and avowed satanist).
     
    Rader, DeAngelo, and Alcaca are all on my list. Only one of them to my knowledge got anywhere close to Vietnam.

    Israel Keyes wasn't even alive when the Vietnam War ended.

    David Parker Ray is a strange case since he was never convicted of murder. While it's perfectly believable that he was a serial killer, and he was quite clearly a sick individual, if we are going to use rumors to test this thesis, then I should point out that it's been suggested that Ray was a murderer back in the 1950s, before the U.S. involvement in Vietnam even began and a decade before the Phoenix Program was founded.

    Richard Ramirez, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng all killed in the 1980s, which is outside the parameter of my search (late nineteen-sixties/early nineteen-seventies). Dahmer had one murder in 1978, but the rest were from 1987 to 1991. The Phoenix Program ended in 1972 and the Vietnam War soon afterward. If you are programmed to kill, why wait more than a decade to start your murder spree?

    Replies: @Perspective, @BB753

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
    Listen, most of the stories you’ve read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
    1) they’re not loners
    2) they have accomplices
    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
    5) they’re often linked to some cult
    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
    7) when they’re caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn’t commit, which serves the police and FBI
    8) they don’t just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    All the nefarious activities so-called serial killers indulged in are still extant: targeted killings, drug running, snuff films, human trafficking, etc.
    It’s just that the actors and the industry have evolved.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @BB753


    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange
     
    I think we can stop right here. It's made from two 1940's herbicides, one still widely used that I'm going to mix up a batch of soon. I've also never come across good evidence the dioxin trace contaminant in the other one does anything worse than give people very bad acne. Trial use of Agent Orange was also done in the Malayan Emergency which ended in 1960.

    S.L.A. Marshall was a fraud, he never did the interviews he claimed to have revealed that WWII soldiers were reluctant to kill their enemies, we know this from his appointment book type records. See Hackworth's About Face for a much later portrait of his poor character. Dave Grossman's thoughts are as far as I can tell from skimming that book you cite frequently wrong, obviously especially on this topic.

    Replies: @BB753

    , @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
     
    And none of those things have any link to the rise in serial killers in the U.S.

    Indeed, as someone else upthread has already pointed out, the increase in serial killers during the late sixties, seventies and eighties was not confined to the United States, but took place all over the West, including in many countries that did not participate in the Vietnam War.

    How are you going to end up blaming the rise of serial killers in England and Scotland during the same period on Vietnam? Do you blame it on NATO or the military industrial complex?


    1) they’re not loners
     
    They typically aren't the life of the party.

    2) they have accomplices
     
    I agree it's not rare for serial killers to have accomplices. Gerald and Charlene Gallego. The Candyman's young accomplices in Houston, one of whom finally offed him because he feared he might end up a victim on the same rack to where he had helped lure many of Corll's victims. Paul Bernardo and his sister-killing wife Karla Homolka. The so-called Hillside Strangler, which later ended up being a duo. William Bonin and his several accomplices. Ian Brady and his girlfriend Myra Hindley.

    So, yes, many serial killers do not act alone. But for every case like the ones above, there are probably five to ten cases in which the man kills by himself.


    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
     
    This is certainly not true.

    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
     
    Nope.

    5) they’re often linked to some cult
     
    Most have odd views and might seek out the company of others with similar views, but that's not the same as belonging to a cult.

    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
     
    When in the throes of fulfilling their compulsion that's certainly true.

    But from the outside, I would say that most serial killers come across as either odd or unremarkable. They hold jobs. They often have relationships or families. Their surprised neighbors often say the clichéd "he seemed like such a nice man."


    7) when they’re caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn’t commit, which serves the police and FBI
     
    Some exaggerate their killing prowess. (Or they just like the attention that comes from constantly talking to law enforcement. ) But other serial killers don't even admit to the crimes we know conclusively that they committed. Look at Randy Kraft. There was an abundance of evidence he committed those 16 murders for which he was convicted, but more than thirty years after he was convicted he still maintains his innocence.

    8) they don’t just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.
     
    Name some examples. Which serial killers in the U.S. have been either convicted or reasonably suspected of human trafficking?
    , @Pincher Martin
    @BB753


    Listen, most of the stories you’ve read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
     
    It's been a while since I read much in the True Crime genre. I find I have less of a stomach for reading about that kind of stuff as I get older. It's more depressing than it is frightening or illuminating.

    But I once read a great deal of the literature. Not just FBI profilers like John Douglas, Robert Ressler, and Roy Hazelwood, but academic and popular histories of serial killers, such as Harold Schechter's _The Serial Killer Files_, Bill James _ True Crime_, and Peter Vronsky's _Son of Cain_, as well as many books on individual serial killers. I've read at least four books on the EAR/ONS/Golden State Killer, for example, since I had four young beautiful aunts in their late teens, early twenties who lived in Sacramento during his crime spree as the East Area Rapist and I can remember their terror that they might end up as one of his victims. It was my first experience with how a famous criminal could affect not just the people I knew but the greater public.

    So, yes, I've read a great deal in this area. And so I come from a position of strength when I say that I can agree with you that most profiling is bullshit. Most of what profilers do is either obvious or questionable. It's not an intellectually robust field, unlike, say, forensics. But one thing I will give the profilers. They provide greater value on the topic than the type of shit you're
    doing here.

  159. @duncsbaby
    @BB753


    It was a psy/ black ops that involved training psychopath soldiers high on LDS
     
    Surely Mormons can't be blamed for this too.

    Replies: @BB753

    Lol! Well, Ted Bundy had definitively ties to Utah and converted to Mormonism!
    https://famousmormons.net/other/infamous-mormons/ted-bundy/

  160. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @BB753


    It’s not my theory. Take it up to author Douglas Valentine, who wrote his book based on CIA reports.
     
    That's all well and good, but I don't see how you explain the fact that lots of these guys were draft eligible during the Vietnam conflict, and therefore their self-selection for military service is suspect at best.

    And only a few cited were in combat arms - maybe someone who got through Gunny Hartman's boot camp experience is one thing, but am I to believe that Uncle Sam trained up an aircraft groundcrew technician to be a soulless killer?

    Replies: @BB753

    “am I to believe that Uncle Sam trained up an aircraft groundcrew technician to be a soulless killer?”

    Uncle Sam performed all kinds of strange experiments : MK Ultra, Phoenix, etc
    After both world wars, the military found out that soldiers weren’t that eager to shoot people and took action. See Dave Grossman and S.L.A. Marshall’s work. Later, I’ll try to dig up info about an army doctor who “denied” he was studying psychopaths in order to train them. It made headline news.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

  161. @Feryl
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Americans are a much less rooted people in comparison to most other countries. Americans probably score higher on "openness to new experiences" than other nations. Americans are very individualistic. These things make Americans more prone to deviance than white Western Europeans. The high trust, now quickly evaporating, of Americans is mostly an artifact of what NW European Protestants brought to the table. The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to "go big" and make a mark).

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to “go big” and make a mark).

    I noticed when reading or viewing documentaries about serial killers how many of their victims were in some way transients – they were college girls from out of town, or young women seeking careers originally from the heartland, etc. An outsized proportion of the victims themselves did not have a stable network of support, so of course of necessity they’re more open to strangers and fewer people noticed something suspicious when they first fell missing. This probably accounts for why serial killers seem to be weighted towards the Western United States where people move from other places in order to start anew and slough off the kind of established order that certain people found stifling.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    For all the abuse that Appalachia gets, the region has had few (if any) serial killers. I would put that down to the region having very few transplants. Among whites, Florida, Texas, and the Western US seem to host the majority of serial killers. There's a smallish # of killers in New England, a decent chunk in the Mid-Atlantic (presumably the sheer number of people combined with the region's historical cosmopolitanism would give produce some deviancy) and Midwest (which perplexes me a bit given the mild-mannered reputation of Midwestern whites, but then, this region was more recently settled than the Northeast and much of the South).

    The Deep South has a few (mostly in Georgia which has been attracting transplants for ages and Atlanta seems like the most decadent place in the South), the Upper South fewer still. Amongst blacks, regional character doesn't seem to matter as much to them as much as it does to whites.

  162. @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    The really savage gay male serial killers born in the 1930's and 40's (exception: Dahmer). I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70's they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males. Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy's house. Gacy's young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we're to believe they didn't notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?

    *An interviews, Gacy doesn't seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

    An interviews, Gacy doesn’t seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).

    Gacy seemed to make a distinction between what he said he was – “bisexual” – and “fags” whom he loathed. This at least implies that he was exclusively the penetrative participant, although he does state that he engaged in oral copulation as both a recipient and a giver so to speak. His earliest arrest in Waterloo, Iowa was for sodomizing the son of an associate. He also seemed to think that he could convince the police to overlook his crimes because his victims were “fags” who had no societal value (although it’s not certain that all of his victims were homosexuals). Gacy also had political connections within the Democratic party in suburban Chicago that may have protected him from investigation, and which he may have expected to “smooth over” his trouble with the police.

  163. @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
    Listen, most of the stories you've read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
    1) they're not loners
    2) they have accomplices
    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
    5) they're often linked to some cult
    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
    7) when they're caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn't commit, which serves the police and FBI
    8) they don't just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    All the nefarious activities so-called serial killers indulged in are still extant: targeted killings, drug running, snuff films, human trafficking, etc.
    It's just that the actors and the industry have evolved.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Pincher Martin, @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange

    I think we can stop right here. It’s made from two 1940’s herbicides, one still widely used that I’m going to mix up a batch of soon. I’ve also never come across good evidence the dioxin trace contaminant in the other one does anything worse than give people very bad acne. Trial use of Agent Orange was also done in the Malayan Emergency which ended in 1960.

    S.L.A. Marshall was a fraud, he never did the interviews he claimed to have revealed that WWII soldiers were reluctant to kill their enemies, we know this from his appointment book type records. See Hackworth’s About Face for a much later portrait of his poor character. Dave Grossman’s thoughts are as far as I can tell from skimming that book you cite frequently wrong, obviously especially on this topic.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @That Would Be Telling

    Obviously, you cannot understand the difference between first trials and extensive and systematic testing.

    "The book you cite frequently wrong, obviously especially on this topic."

    Which book?

  164. @That Would Be Telling
    @BB753


    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange
     
    I think we can stop right here. It's made from two 1940's herbicides, one still widely used that I'm going to mix up a batch of soon. I've also never come across good evidence the dioxin trace contaminant in the other one does anything worse than give people very bad acne. Trial use of Agent Orange was also done in the Malayan Emergency which ended in 1960.

    S.L.A. Marshall was a fraud, he never did the interviews he claimed to have revealed that WWII soldiers were reluctant to kill their enemies, we know this from his appointment book type records. See Hackworth's About Face for a much later portrait of his poor character. Dave Grossman's thoughts are as far as I can tell from skimming that book you cite frequently wrong, obviously especially on this topic.

    Replies: @BB753

    Obviously, you cannot understand the difference between first trials and extensive and systematic testing.

    “The book you cite frequently wrong, obviously especially on this topic.”

    Which book?

  165. @JohnnyWalker123
    @BB753

    Excellent posts.

    Why do you think so many of these individuals were involved with Satanic cults?

    Also, I'm sure you are familiar with the "Finders" cult, Boystown Omaha, and the rampant occultism of the elites(Hollywood, Marina Abramovich, Jeffrey Epstein's temple, etc). There seem to be real-life Satanists in critical positions of our power structure. What are your thoughts on all that?

    Replies: @BB753

    Thanks! Unfortunately, most people, Steve Sailer included, are unable to stare the hard, cold facts of the underworld and its interconnections with intelligence, police, drugs, human trafficking and ultimately, finance corporations.

    As for the reason so many of the so-called serial killers were in cults, the answer is very simple.
    People in cults are broken, bitter and discontent and are ready to lash out at society. They also do know how to keep secrets. So they make perfect contract killers. Moreover, cults are perfect covers for illegal activities, since weird goings-on are taken for granted.
    As to the satanic or occultic element, well, these kinds of cults naturally attract psychopaths and sexual deviants. Some don’t take satanism seriously, some do. But they enjoy the dark atmosphere and the social darwinism inherent to satanism: the strong prey on the weak, might makes right, etc.
    Yes, I do know about the Franklin Scandal, Boystown, the Finders, etc.
    Occultism among the elites has been going on since the Renaissance, particularly the Anglo elites. After all, the British Empire was built by freemasons, who served as spies and business brokers for the Empire. Take a guy like Cecil Rhodes, for instance, and his Round Table cult, which included Milner, Balfour, Astor, etc. When the power shifted from London City to New York, the Anglo-American establishment retained both a pragmatic and an occultic or messianic side. Need I remind anyone that America was established by masons? Christianity in America has always been shallow, mostly influenced by Calvin.
    Certainly, some freemasons aren’t that interested in the Kabbalah or illuminism, some are.
    As for Hollywood, it has always been a hotbed of witchcraft and occultism and sexual deviancy.

    Ultimately, as I said, the mindset of the elite is luciferian in nature: they see themselves as gods, above the plebes and at the top of the food chain and natural predators.

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
  166. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Feryl


    The late 20th century phenomenon of American serial killers seems largely the product of extreme sociopaths taking advantage of rapidly declining trends in behavioral inhibition + the last vestiges of a high trust society + the American (really, New World) tendency toward excessive individualism (which influences sociopaths to “go big” and make a mark).
     
    I noticed when reading or viewing documentaries about serial killers how many of their victims were in some way transients - they were college girls from out of town, or young women seeking careers originally from the heartland, etc. An outsized proportion of the victims themselves did not have a stable network of support, so of course of necessity they're more open to strangers and fewer people noticed something suspicious when they first fell missing. This probably accounts for why serial killers seem to be weighted towards the Western United States where people move from other places in order to start anew and slough off the kind of established order that certain people found stifling.

    Replies: @Feryl

    For all the abuse that Appalachia gets, the region has had few (if any) serial killers. I would put that down to the region having very few transplants. Among whites, Florida, Texas, and the Western US seem to host the majority of serial killers. There’s a smallish # of killers in New England, a decent chunk in the Mid-Atlantic (presumably the sheer number of people combined with the region’s historical cosmopolitanism would give produce some deviancy) and Midwest (which perplexes me a bit given the mild-mannered reputation of Midwestern whites, but then, this region was more recently settled than the Northeast and much of the South).

    The Deep South has a few (mostly in Georgia which has been attracting transplants for ages and Atlanta seems like the most decadent place in the South), the Upper South fewer still. Amongst blacks, regional character doesn’t seem to matter as much to them as much as it does to whites.

  167. @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    That's something that I nearly brought up. For Latin American countries, they like the Anglo New World are very young countries full of people who don't have roots stretching back over many generations (rootedness inhibits behavior). WRT the psychopath trait of Openness to experience, Latin America culture has tended to be quite decadent and have they not fully embraced every negative trend that's come down the pike over the years?

    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries. There's bound to be some really nasty people who emerge. Another factor at work maybe the opportunity to roam about that one has in such physically large countries. A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries.

    Yes, but even today they are somewhat closed societies. Their regimes had for many decades – and still have today to a lesser degree – good reason not to publicize the worst depravities of their most twisted citizens as it was viewed as a reflection on their entire societies.

    That’s always a bad thing. Mass shooters in the U.S. might be motivated to do their evil deeds in part by the widespread attention and publicity those crimes get.

    BTW, the internet is filled with shrines to serial killers in which the details of their crimes are treated with almost loving attention by those who build the shrines. The victims get much less attention from them, except as props in the serial killer’s life. While I highly doubt attention-seeking is a strong motivation for any serial killer – as opposed to mass murderers, serial killers are typically driven by some sick compulsion they must act upon – it’s still surprising to see how many of them act as if they are stars after they are caught.

    So I’m sure that there have been many hundreds of serial killers who have committed horrific crimes in China and Russia than we have read about. Even Japan, which is a much smaller country and more tightly packed, has a lot of serial killers whose crimes were not publicized in the west.

    A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.

    True. But sprawling areas are not only helpful to the serial killer in allowing him to roam without suspicion. They are also helpful in allowing him to hide his bodies. The forests, rivers, lakes, parks, and deserts of America take up a lot of space. They allow the serial killer to put some time and distance between him and his crime. Even when the bodies are eventually discovered, it’s often too late for them to be forensically useful to investigators in finding the killer.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Pincher Martin

    Correction:


    That’s NOT always a bad thing.
     
  168. @Feryl
    @Pincher Martin

    The really savage gay male serial killers born in the 1930's and 40's (exception: Dahmer). I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70's they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males. Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy's house. Gacy's young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we're to believe they didn't notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?

    *An interviews, Gacy doesn't seem the least bit gay. He ran a successful construction company and appears to have been well regarded by many straight guys before he got busted (swishy gay guys typically are considered lepers by straight guys).

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Pincher Martin

    I think they really hated the society they were born into, then when all hell broke loose in the 70’s they had an opportunity to vent their rage. Gacy* was probably a self-hating gay man, he married two woman whom he affected to love in order to better fit in, but his rage at his real sexuality was vented toward young males.

    Gacy’s savageness was probably driven by his relationship with his abusive father who seems to have understood quite early that his son was a “fairy.” Society had nothing to do with it.

    Gacy also had accomplices, the speculation is that at least one of them had connections to organized crime etc. so the police looked the other way. The police recorded two young men who knew Gacy speaking about their concern that they would get busted for helping him. A surviving Gacy victim said that he heard another male voice as he was attacked in Gacy’s house. Gacy’s young male associates had keys to his house after Gacy got divorced and lived alone. They also helped Gacy dig graves and claimed Gacy had them surreptitiously doing so, but we’re to believe they didn’t notice the stench in the house after he buried many victims?

    Yes, I had forgotten about that.

  169. @Pincher Martin
    @Feryl


    Russia and also China have had their fair share of killers too, but just look at the sheer population of those countries.
     
    Yes, but even today they are somewhat closed societies. Their regimes had for many decades - and still have today to a lesser degree - good reason not to publicize the worst depravities of their most twisted citizens as it was viewed as a reflection on their entire societies.

    That's always a bad thing. Mass shooters in the U.S. might be motivated to do their evil deeds in part by the widespread attention and publicity those crimes get.

    BTW, the internet is filled with shrines to serial killers in which the details of their crimes are treated with almost loving attention by those who build the shrines. The victims get much less attention from them, except as props in the serial killer's life. While I highly doubt attention-seeking is a strong motivation for any serial killer - as opposed to mass murderers, serial killers are typically driven by some sick compulsion they must act upon - it's still surprising to see how many of them act as if they are stars after they are caught.

    So I'm sure that there have been many hundreds of serial killers who have committed horrific crimes in China and Russia than we have read about. Even Japan, which is a much smaller country and more tightly packed, has a lot of serial killers whose crimes were not publicized in the west.


    A criminal naturally has more environments to operate in, and can avoid detection more easily, if he commits crime over a sprawling area. America, China, Russia, Canada, and Australia all can be host to crime sprees committed over huge distances. America has had several serial killers who worked as truckers.
     
    True. But sprawling areas are not only helpful to the serial killer in allowing him to roam without suspicion. They are also helpful in allowing him to hide his bodies. The forests, rivers, lakes, parks, and deserts of America take up a lot of space. They allow the serial killer to put some time and distance between him and his crime. Even when the bodies are eventually discovered, it's often too late for them to be forensically useful to investigators in finding the killer.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Correction:

    That’s NOT always a bad thing.

  170. @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
    Listen, most of the stories you've read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
    1) they're not loners
    2) they have accomplices
    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
    5) they're often linked to some cult
    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
    7) when they're caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn't commit, which serves the police and FBI
    8) they don't just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    All the nefarious activities so-called serial killers indulged in are still extant: targeted killings, drug running, snuff films, human trafficking, etc.
    It's just that the actors and the industry have evolved.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Pincher Martin, @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.

    And none of those things have any link to the rise in serial killers in the U.S.

    Indeed, as someone else upthread has already pointed out, the increase in serial killers during the late sixties, seventies and eighties was not confined to the United States, but took place all over the West, including in many countries that did not participate in the Vietnam War.

    How are you going to end up blaming the rise of serial killers in England and Scotland during the same period on Vietnam? Do you blame it on NATO or the military industrial complex?

    1) they’re not loners

    They typically aren’t the life of the party.

    2) they have accomplices

    I agree it’s not rare for serial killers to have accomplices. Gerald and Charlene Gallego. The Candyman’s young accomplices in Houston, one of whom finally offed him because he feared he might end up a victim on the same rack to where he had helped lure many of Corll’s victims. Paul Bernardo and his sister-killing wife Karla Homolka. The so-called Hillside Strangler, which later ended up being a duo. William Bonin and his several accomplices. Ian Brady and his girlfriend Myra Hindley.

    So, yes, many serial killers do not act alone. But for every case like the ones above, there are probably five to ten cases in which the man kills by himself.

    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.

    This is certainly not true.

    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.

    Nope.

    5) they’re often linked to some cult

    Most have odd views and might seek out the company of others with similar views, but that’s not the same as belonging to a cult.

    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed

    When in the throes of fulfilling their compulsion that’s certainly true.

    But from the outside, I would say that most serial killers come across as either odd or unremarkable. They hold jobs. They often have relationships or families. Their surprised neighbors often say the clichéd “he seemed like such a nice man.”

    7) when they’re caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn’t commit, which serves the police and FBI

    Some exaggerate their killing prowess. (Or they just like the attention that comes from constantly talking to law enforcement. ) But other serial killers don’t even admit to the crimes we know conclusively that they committed. Look at Randy Kraft. There was an abundance of evidence he committed those 16 murders for which he was convicted, but more than thirty years after he was convicted he still maintains his innocence.

    8) they don’t just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    Name some examples. Which serial killers in the U.S. have been either convicted or reasonably suspected of human trafficking?

  171. @BB753
    @Pincher Martin

    Vietnam was a testing ground for many things: agent orange, drones, psy-ops, black-ops, drugs, etc. The army just went on experimenting after the war.
    Listen, most of the stories you've read about serial killers and profilers is BS.
    1) they're not loners
    2) they have accomplices
    3) most of them are trained, not necessarily by the military.
    4) they often work for the police, intelligence agencies or the mob or all of them.
    5) they're often linked to some cult
    6) more than crazy, they seem possessed
    7) when they're caught they take the fall for many crimes they didn't commit, which serves the police and FBI
    8) they don't just kill. They procure victims to third parties or human trafficking rings, often involving snuff films.

    All the nefarious activities so-called serial killers indulged in are still extant: targeted killings, drug running, snuff films, human trafficking, etc.
    It's just that the actors and the industry have evolved.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Pincher Martin, @Pincher Martin

    Listen, most of the stories you’ve read about serial killers and profilers is BS.

    It’s been a while since I read much in the True Crime genre. I find I have less of a stomach for reading about that kind of stuff as I get older. It’s more depressing than it is frightening or illuminating.

    But I once read a great deal of the literature. Not just FBI profilers like John Douglas, Robert Ressler, and Roy Hazelwood, but academic and popular histories of serial killers, such as Harold Schechter’s _The Serial Killer Files_, Bill James _ True Crime_, and Peter Vronsky’s _Son of Cain_, as well as many books on individual serial killers. I’ve read at least four books on the EAR/ONS/Golden State Killer, for example, since I had four young beautiful aunts in their late teens, early twenties who lived in Sacramento during his crime spree as the East Area Rapist and I can remember their terror that they might end up as one of his victims. It was my first experience with how a famous criminal could affect not just the people I knew but the greater public.

    So, yes, I’ve read a great deal in this area. And so I come from a position of strength when I say that I can agree with you that most profiling is bullshit. Most of what profilers do is either obvious or questionable. It’s not an intellectually robust field, unlike, say, forensics. But one thing I will give the profilers. They provide greater value on the topic than the type of shit you’re
    doing here.

  172. I have a different theory about serial killers. Its mostly a generational phenomenon. The vast majority of serial killers were either very late Silents or early boomers (born in mid to late 1940’s). This makes them old enough to have grown up in “old school” traditional culture where it was OK for dysfunctional parents to beat their kids for no reason at all. Add to that the changing role in society starting in the mid 1960’s, about the time these people are getting out of high school, that increases their pathological attitudes towards women. I believe serial killers are a product of these two factors, coupled with all of the other factors that drive their psychopathy. According to the graph, the serial killer phenomenon began declining in the early 80’s (something I noticed at the time) and had declined significantly by the time the Sigourney Weaver movie “Copycat” came out in 1995. One thing I noticed is that, along with the decline of arrests of serial killers in the late 80’s and 90’s, that the guys getting caught were getting older (late 40’s as compared to the 25 to 35 stereotype of the 70’s).

  173. There may be a decline in people being whisked off the street vs. when there were hitch hikers, street prostitutes, and trusting women who would help a guy with a fake cast stuck on the side of the road, but there have been many reports of Tinder, escort, and sugar baby site women who went off to meet a guy and were never heard from again. I’d be curious of how much A declined only for B to begin with the dawn of social media, and increase. Even on legitimate dating sites, men and women both have been assaulted, robbed, at times killed, including CraigsList killers where a woman would answer an ad for a nanny or housekeeper, only to be done in. It’s to the point where police departments have set up meet-up points at their station parking lots, in front of the cameras, for online transactions to be fulfilled.

    The best description I’ve heard is that in Europe and most of the world, killing comes in waves, and is communal. You can walk the street at night, but every 20 years or so they arm up armies and go to war to kill by the droves. In the US, it’s a constant hum that’s individual.

    Or maybe it’s when one method loses its ability to shock, people move on. As late as the late 80s, there was still a lot of press about Gacy, Manson, and Richard Speck, since those were very shocking at the time. Now, it’s like Manson said, when he was doing his thing, being crazy really meant something. Nowadays, everyone is crazy. So the school shooting thing is more a key for some sick narcissist to get celebrity status. Kind of like tattoos on women. Used to be very shocking to even have an ankle tat one can easily hide. Then, she had to get a tramp stamp to shock, then when even the soccer moms had those, sleeves. Now we’re up to neck and face tattoos.

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